Ende
 

Torsten
Germany - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 13:00:24 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 14:08:17 (EDT) 

The Sustainment class is to work with some nightvision form H S Precision. That will be cool. The UPS man just droped off my new PVS-4 and mount to go on my M-21. So the gas guns can rule the night and day Scott.

To SMTC people any of you guys coming down to Dallas at the end of the mounth to shoot with Rae and muself. I know that team Dallas would like that.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 15:46:03 (EDT) 

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 18:28:24 (EDT) 

Hey Al - yeah Uncle Nunzio's nephew. Are all you New Yawkers sissified disgruntled panhandlers like that over-rated baseball team of yours?

al
Uncle Vic's nephew.
 

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Obnoxiously savoring the victory over the NY Yankees in Cleveland, Ohio USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 21:56:07 (EDT) 

Spud
Dennis <Usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, ca USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 22:48:44 (EDT) 

Thanks for the input about the Mauser, 721, and 600 actions. I ended up not going back to the gun show and not spending more of the money that I don't have.

Also, Sarge, Pat, and Will, thanks for the direction re: the 175 Federal GM. Found the website, got the info. 2,600fps @ muzzle and 1,200 pfs at 1000 yds. Was a "side-by-side" comparison table w/ 168gm match.

Knives are an item just now. Don't know much about them. There were some Benchmade automatics at same gun show that I handled and ,of course, wanted. What would in your collective wisdom be one or two utilitarian knives to add to a beginner's kit? I do have a Glock combat style knife w/ a 6 in. blade; all black in a hard plastic like scabbard(?) that click locks when you seat the knife in it. Looks to be well made. A county deputy let me in on a buy: 20.00 bucks for the knife/sheath combo. Supposed to have been a great price. I don't know. Damn thing looks wicked. Also have a Buck Lite w/ a thumb stub or some such attached to the blade. These two okay?

Now, here's a question. What would be good quality in the way of a night vision device to mount on the rifle? Or what would be a good first aquisition in the way of night vision optics? I need to educate myself,here. You see adds everywhere for this and that night vision stuff. I'm hesitant to approach for fear of purchasing junk.

My scope is Mk4-M3 10x. Rings are Mk 4s. I say this because I think it might be pertinent as far as mounting goes. I really don't have a clue. I'm truley ignorant about what's live and what's memorex in the night vision arena. It would be good to be able to see in the dark and shoot in the dark... and hit in the dark. This may be some major fantisizing on my part, but, SC be the place to learn the right way to do it.

Anybody tried Berger 185s w/ N150 for 308 Win? Or any other powder for 185 vlds.
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 00:13:52 (EDT) 

My dealer has a Benchmade automatic w/o the serrated blade (not sure of nomaclature) but it is for LE's only that can supply a badge number. I didn't want to pay $150 for it but it is definately nice. Very quick and strong. Literaly like a razor out of the box.

I have owned a few Buck knives in the past. Most of them about 25 years ago being a big thing for the average serviceman at the time. A couple of folding and a couple of hunting straights. Never could get a good edge on one but I probably did not have the right stones at the time.

I do have an old Ka-Bar boot/belt knife that has a stainless double edge blade, yellow bone handle and brass guard. At about 5" overall it is small enough to be inconspicuous yet looks good enough to be a dress knife. I just noticed that it is stamped Cleveland, Ohio and my new Ka-Bar folder is stamped Olean,Ny. Must be different companies make them then Ka-Bar puts thier stamp on them.

bill <billmohr@borg.com>
utica, ny USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 01:09:19 (EDT) 

Being a Marine (eeergh, ugh.....snuffle...grunt), I am fascinated by deadly weapons and want to own all I can. Knives are a relatively inexpensive way to add to the arsenal. Have owned many. My two favorite field knives have been my GI "Ka-Bar" (USMC fighting knife...Ka-Bar is really just a brand name for a knife that's a copy of the USMC fighting knife, but isn't made by the govt contractor), and a single-edged Ek bowie (forget the actual name of the particular style) with a wood handle.

Like the Ka-Bar cuz it was cheap (if I wear it out, I can afford to replace it easily), and has been very durable. It's beat to hell...six months of weekly field ops really wore it out. Parkerizing is worn off in many spots, edge has a lotta wear, leather handles started to rot from constant moisture (sanded them down to the good leather and fixed 'em up with expoy spiked with some abrasive grit), had to buy a custom, hard nylon sheath cuz the leather sheath rotted through and my thigh was in danger of being perforated. But that sucker will work hard, and I'm not afraid to work it hard. I have a beautiful Cold Steel Tanto, and it's tougher'n hell, but it's so pretty I hate to risk dingin' it all up!

The Ek has been a great knife for me. More $$ than the Ka-Bar, but still not too steep, a good strong spine for hard work, keeps a good edge, and the sheath is nylon, so it won't rot.

Personally, I think a good knife for the field should be a hard worker. I carry a small knife (Benchmade AFO) for opening MREs and other "fine" work, but a real field knife oughta have enough heft and strength for chopping branches (aiming stakes, field expedient tentpoles, etc.), slashing somebody's exposed bodyparts, etc., and should be long enough to do the job if you stick it into someone's rib cage (not likely, but you never really know).

Single-edged is the only way to go unless ALL you're gonna do with it is "dance" with somebody--a fighter, not a field knife at that point. Bolos and Kukri-style knives are useful as workers, but a little too big for my tastes. Although if you don't mind carrying a third knife, I think a machete, Kukri, etc., is a great tool. But I compromise with a medium-sized knife with a strong spine, single edge, and a little weight to it. Less you're in triple canopy, it oughta do the job.

Neither of my two favorite field knives is stainless. The Ka-Bar really shows it, too. The Ek, not so much. But you CAN maintain a knife pretty easily. Stay away from leather handles/sheaths--they'll eventually rot if you're really workin 'em, no matter what you do.

Shot, over.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 01:49:59 (EDT) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 05:03:46 (EDT) 

These are the sharpest new knifes you can buy. Very good quality carbon or SS Swedish steel. They come in different shapes and sizes. Price is $4-10. If the edge goes or it gets rusted I throw it away and get a new one. I usually carry 2 or 3 knifes on a hunt.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 05:17:29 (EDT) 

After owning a SOG dagger, various fixed blade knives, etc... I've got to come down on the side of the Marines. Terrible thing for a good little army lad to say but the K-Bar as made by Oleans is fantstic. Holds an edge well, good warrantee, heavy enough to chop but you don't feel you're lugging a sword around. And they only cost $40 so if you lose it or break it you won't burst into tears.
As for auto knive the one by benchmade is nice but I like manual. Half the cost, no legal problems, almost as fast, and alot easier to close with one hand.
SCOUTS OUT!!
E Engler <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 11:50:28 (EDT) 

I kind of side with the carbon steel crowd. I think it is less brittle and more workable than the stainless variety. Not that there is anything wrong with stainless. I have used both in the bush and it was always nice to be able to bust open c-rat boxes, cut comm wire, dig in a machine-gun tripod, cut roots when digging a hide etc. and not have to sweat it too bad when having to re-sharpen the old blade. I always have either a swiss army knife or gerber multiplier with a file to rough it out and then a small stone and oil in the personal survival kit. Both the bolo and Kill-a-Bar would sharpen up real fast and then go on. Gave you something to do during down time.

Another advantage of the K-bar and bolo was their use as fighting knives. If you are looking for a great book on knife fighting look for "Cold Steel" by John Styers (Marine). It covers the use of a Bowie style blade and stick fighting from a grunt mindset. My favorite book of it's kind. I've seen and studied different knife fighting styles and this is my favorite. Uses fencing as a basis for most of its techniques.

The Bolo is also a great fighting knife. It was used brutally by the Moro's in the Phillipines which is one reason why we started using the .45 ACP. Great sentry removal weapon. Same basic shape as the more well known Ghurka Kukri, with a less pronounced blade drop.

The National Guard combat matches are getting ready to go now. Was talking to German's, Canadians and Austrailians last night at the club. Guy's, we are all the same types of knuckle heads in this buisness. Guns and beer, beer and guns. What a life. (Have you ever noticed that when we go to another country we want to drink thier beer over say bud or miller but when they come here we are drinking Guiness or Fosters and the brits and Aussies are drinking Coors! Where is that beer loyalty!!??)

Torsten - I thought you were coming over. Are there two Torstens on this site or what? I'm so confused. Was ist los!!

Oh well... time to go baby-sit criminals.

Gooch
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 14:05:37 (EDT) 

Why mention this? because I feel that a battle blade and a field knife are two different animals. One should probably never use one for the other. Can they be the same blade design? Yes. Your battle blade should remain in is sheath and only come out to do battle. This insures the edge is razor sharp to make that first deep slash into the target. After you have used and abused your field/utility blade to death, you'll be lucky to spread butter on your attacker.

I agree with Gooch. The bolo is an excellent all around field knife, and can be a deadly battle blade. Bowie designs are good and allow thrusting too. I like the Kukri designs. The user can make aiming stakes and chop fire wood or necks as use dictates. a Tanto is a good all round fighting knife and allows slashes, drag cuts and thrusting.

None of them skin a rabbit very well or spread MRE cheese on a MRE cracker worth a SH**.
Cory <ranger9@hotmail.com>
Down here on the beach, FL USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 14:34:59 (EDT) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 15:06:43 (EDT) 

Marius: How about an archive?

Ok folks, here is a new topic that should get some mental smoke going.
WINDAGE.
The snipers nightmare. Every piece of data I have looked at in the last two day gives conflicting information.

Example: For a given bullet I have found 6 different adjustment values for a 10 mph full value wind @ 1000 yards! The barrel length was the same and the muzzle velocity was with in 50fps.

Marines constant method: 10 moa
Army chart: 5.5 moa
1/2 minute Rossette chart: 5 moa
1 minute Rossette chart: 7 moa.
Sierra ballistic program: 9 moa
Plus another one I forgot that but it at 8 moa!

So Gooch, Rick, and any other old timer with a TON of trigger time, what gives? How can All of these be correct?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 16:22:09 (EDT) 

There's a proper tool for any task, but in the field you can't carry the proper tool for every task. Further, I'm not sure your average grunt has taken the time to learn the art of knife fighting. And fact is that the odds of doing much knife fighting in combat are pretty darn low. For these reasons, I'm not a fan of pure fighting knives. You need to make sure your gear is of maximum all-around usefulness (Gerber tool, Swiss Army knife, etc.), cuz you can only carry so much. A good field knife should be able to be pressed into service as a fighter, but also be able to perform the mundane tasks that arise in the field. I'd like to take an informal poll: all those of us who've actually heard shots fired in anger, and had to bust brush with bad guys in it for an extended period of time, please answer up. Did you carry a fighting knife, field knife, or both? Neither? Why? To get really un-PC (forgive me if I'm too blunt, guys), did you ever actually find it necessary to use a knife on the enemy? James, Rick, et al, let's have the voices of experience.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 19:23:39 (EDT) 

I know this has been hashed out before, but I guess I need convincing
Grey <Greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 19:34:56 (EDT) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Unimpressed with everyone's knife knowledge in , Ohio USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 21:49:21 (EDT) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Enjoying God's Fall Pallette in the colorful Grand Republic of teh State of , Ohio USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 22:02:14 (EDT) 

Matt - On the knife fight issue. Yes, I have been that close and my observations are that if a knife has the "saw tooth" back spine you will never get it out of the body. (I have one stuck in Laos in that scared sentry that put up one hell of a fight.) Tried the grab and stick to get out of an encirclement by de-fault. James I believe you understand what I mean. As a civilian I had an a**hole try to stick me with a stiletto. Got my hand instead and the jerk let go. No pain until after I tried to "return" his knife to him and the adrenilin wore off. Lousy shock value to the blade. Too much like a hypo needle. But you are right. The soldier needs a knife that he can destroy his opponent with, not "dance" around with.

Scott - On the wind formula, they can't all be correct. The problem comes about due to using different drag co-efficents in the orignal model. Since the Marine answer is 10 moa, I must assume that you are talking 168 gr. At SOTIC use a constant of 10 for the formula and while not dead on it is within .5 moa at that range. If the G1 model is used you will get one answer and if you use the correct boat tail co-efficent you will get another. The rossettes were modeled on a multiple constant that had a basic flaw and gave way toa low of a moa adjustment. The Sierra program uses the G1 drag and comes up about 1.5 moa short. The army figures compute, by error, to be .5 increments instead of 1 moa increments. So double the army answer and you are close. I know, I really didn't answer your question, but that's as close as I can come. I do know that if you use wind speed in knots, times range in hundreds, divided by the constant of ten, you will have a moa adjustment that will hit a mansized target at 1000 yards. Use the same formula from 100 to 1000 and you will start out being .5 moa too strong and end being .5 moa too weak. But, hey what's .5 inches to 5 inches among friends? By the way, don't forget spin drift.

Cripes, got long winded again. You'd think after a day with students I could keep the dialog short! Hold hard guys!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 23:01:47 (EDT) 

Spin drift? Criminy, at least you don't have to account for rotation of the earth! :o)
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Thursday, October 08, 1998 at 23:49:56 (EDT) 

Thanks in Advance,
Mike

Mike <Niteeyes20@ids.net>
Coventry, RI USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 01:53:45 (EDT) 

Rick, You the man!

On the windage issue. I have one thing to say. Remember guys all of these formulas, charts etc are based on a crosswind with a single component in "standard" conditions. We all know that it is a crap shoot. Gooch's best advise is to shoot a lot, learn to read mirage and bury a lot of chicken bones.

Damn, I'll try to get serious here.

All of the wind charts are only an attempt to get the shooter on paper. No one can look at a chart and punch out X's all day just as I can't read a book on nuclear physics and build an ion drive for a space ship (where is he going with this huh?). Anyway, when I am shooting a lot, I can usually look at the mirage or the observable conditions and be pretty close on a wind call. If I haven't been shooting a lot, then I might as well go with the voodoo.

Rick is on target with his suggestions on this so I will just shut up and retire to my rack! Thanks Rick. I miss our IM's since I have had to start this totally, bullshit civvy job.

SMTC here I come!

Hey guys, James Jarret deserves a kudo here. We have been pluging SMTC pretty heavy here and Mr Jarret hasn't raised a stink even though he runs similiar training. Good bunch of people here.

Gotta go before the Fosters start talking.

Gooch is out of here!
 
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 02:16:40 (EDT) 

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 03:40:13 (EDT) 

My two cents.

"Butter Bar" (and proud of it) out.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 03:57:48 (EDT) 

E Engler <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 04:42:05 (EDT) 

Rick, thanks for the reply. The thing that makes the windage issue so "interesting" is that at times I have used several of these formulas and had center mass hits with them all, both in competition and on the UKD range. What this tells me is that my wind estimation was OFF and I was essentially just getting lucky. Example: The Army chart gives 4.5 minutes for a full value 10 mph wind at 800 Meters. I have used that figure repeatedly to ding the target. Yet when compared to the balistic program for the same round, that call is off. So my assumption is that my wind call was actually off. This is kind of like voodoo! Why is this bugging me right now? I am trying to develop an accurate wind chart for my 26" PSS. Gathering all the various data has brought to light (at least for me) all the varying data out there. Guess I'll just have to stick with the Sierra program as verifying the windage for every 100 yards and every 3 mph all the way to 1000 would take a life time in waiting for each condition.

Scott <xring@voicenet,com>
USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 09:16:48 (EDT) 

Spin drift? Better known as the Magnus Effect. The spin imparted on the bullet causes a drift in the direction the TOP of the bullet is spinning in. Those of who play, or are interested in, baseball, would ( should? ) know that this effect is the reason for those guys being able to make the ball doing all kind of funny things.

Training. Well, if one wants to land in prison real fast in South Africa, one must attempt to provide the kind of training that places like ASA and SMTC gives. With all the mercenaries coming out of South Africa, they passed a law which bans all such training. Actually, according to the letter of the law, not even the Defence Force and Police can give that training :-) Go figure.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 09:35:09 (EDT) 

Knives. Some common sense here…Ever try to cut commo wire with a knife? A good set of cutters would probably be just about as useful on a daily basis for a regular infantry soldier. While I am a big fan of Benchmade, this is only for civilian defensive carry. When in the infantry, most of us just used bayonets or bayonet sized knives for chores. While some guys carried knives thinking in terms of combat, the things got a ton of use as crate openers, picks, saws, hasty pegs, cutters, pry-bars...tools in general. In other words, I am thinking that the real question of what an individual might carry in the armed forces comes down to what will survive a lot abuse and misuse as well as be easily replaced. $150 Rambo sized special "combat" knives do not make a lot of sense for a guy who is ACTUALLY going to use the thing. He will probably lose it, most likely break it, or have it stolen by some thieving bastard from another platoon! I can think of two guys who used Gerber boot knives (either on their LBE or boot) and I believe both of them lost these things in the field! Think cheap. Think THICK. Think Functional. Given a choice, I’d rather have a $25 machete or M7 bayonet if I actually had to use an edged weapon on somebody in anger! The Machete has long reach, lots of momentum. Sort of a poor man’s short sword. And if I lose it some night, who cares, it is easily replaced. Gooch’s bolo is better as the blade is stronger. Besides, let’s not forget your entrenching tool. It too makes a heck of a weapon. But seriously, unless you are some SPEC-Op type sneaking up on people from behind, you will probably never use a knife for anything but a tool. If you run out of ammo, bad guy is going to SHOOT you, not engage you in a knife fight! He ain't That stupid!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 10:10:22 (EDT) 

I am very behind on this because when it started happening I was moving to the back side of...some where.

What ever happened to the idea of taggeaments in gun powder and what about the time desinegrating primers?

If anyone knows please help me before I go blow my money on something that wont last.
Ferguson <ref@wf.net>
WF, TX USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 10:17:54 (EDT) 

Dave in Ok
Dave Martin <theopair@aol.com>
Ok USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 10:34:47 (EDT) 

Any former, or current for that matter, USMC FAST Snipers or DM's out there who possess photos from their time in Mogadishu '93-'94 at the USLO compound (Ambassador's residence). Am trying to put together
material for a book and already have quite a few shots, but am hurting for quality, in focus shots of the bunkers/posts and the layout of the compound. Will return all photos in same condition as received.

S/F 1stLt Jon. A. Custis
jon a. custis <jacustis@aol.com>
orlando, fl USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 11:47:59 (EDT) 

As far as taggants in powder, It hasn't happened yet in small arms powder. The last I heard was that the manufacturers and the feds were still fighting about it. The idea that primers self-destruct after a certain period of time hasn't happened either. From what I have read about long range .308 shooting, reloading is a necessity. For me, working up a good accurate load is part of the fun of shooting.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
Down in the Ozarks, MO USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 12:13:45 (EDT) 

Kevin: Try Fed GM2 with the 175 grain HPBT. Similiar ballistics.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 15:24:30 (EDT) 

thanks
Grey <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 20:33:23 (EDT) 

Stay Hard
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 21:29:58 (EDT) 

On estimating wind speed. Most people make it into something that is not. I am firmly convinced this was done years ago by good shooters to give them an edge over newbees. You estimate the speed of people, cars, objects, balls, clubs, etc. throughout your life. That's what keeps you from bouncing into each other at the mall. Look at the mirage and estimate it's speed. Take your first "gut instinct", don't change your mind or you will mess up. Look at the speed of the mirage based on how fast do you need to go to keep up. Can you stroll (2 -3 mph), fast walk (4-5 mph), jog (6-7 mph), run (8-9 mph), sprint (10-12 mph), or do you need to get in your car and chase the sucker down (12 and above). Of course in my case anything over 5 is get in my car and chase the sucker down. Then use the math of wind speed times range in hundreds divided by the constant of the round you are using. This gives you full value wind. Now decide if the wind is full or part value. Another place that many have problems. At 90 degrees, it is full; 75 degrees is .96 value; 60 degrees is .86 value; 45 degrees is .70 vlaue (NOT half); 30 degrees is .5 value; and 15 degrees is .25 value. At longer ranges you also have a verticle displacement of about .10 of the horizontal value at 1000 yards. When the wind is right to left the round climbs high and left to right goes low, (for a right hand twist, opposite for a left hand twist). A no value head wind causes the round to strike low and a no value tail wind will cause the round to strike high. As the part value wind starts taking effect the fun increases as to high and low and will drive a man to drink. Watch the mirage in multiple locations so that a wind change doesn't go unnoticed. Always evaluate each wind call and then look at the grass or leaves. This aids in computing values of wind. Watch the wind over multiple ranges to your target and find the dominant wind or if two winds cancel each other out. When the mirage goes squirrely, stop and wait, the wind is going to change it's mind and that's its warning to you. Unless you absolutely have to, don't shoot in a boil! I know everyone loves the no value boil. Bigger than Dallas that is when the wind will make up its mind to become a full value 5 mph left to right. Unless you have a steady no value wind, without a fishtail, then a boil is an ambush!

Dam Scott, I got going again. Feel free to edit what is too long of an explaination to a short question. I guess the students have me in answer man mode! Have fun guys and hold hard.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, October 09, 1998 at 22:51:15 (EDT) 

Thanks for the email. I'll check it out.

Rick:

I read your return mail re: wind formula. I will run some ballistic tables and practice on paper. Have a chance to shoot 600, 800, and 1000 in a 308 only match next weekend. Issue ammo will Fed GM 175. Maybe I can have starting point where wind is concerned.
Thanks..
 

Gentleman:

My Rem. M700 is acting up. Meaning that it's not feeding rounds from the mag. w/ any reliability. And I seem to be having difficulty loading any more than 2 in the mag. I can put 2 rounds in the mag. fine, but for some reason, the third one goes in w/ difficulty and will ,sometimes, look misalighned. The 4th rd. goes in w/ a large amt. of forcing effort and sometines doesn't want to go at all. This is not a good thing. I want to be able to smoothly cycle the bolt and feed rds. for rapid fire.

I was practicing 5 shot rapid from prone at the range a couple of days ago. I could get 4 in the mag. and load a 5th in the chamber, but when shooting, the bolt would not grab the 3rd shot. The round appeared to be incorrectly oriented. I had to stop, dump the rds. or fiddle w/ no 3 in the mag to get things going.

Today, I visited my friend and mentor, Hook Boutin. We replaced the factory follower w/ an after market steel follower and he "peened" the underside follower tabs against the spring w/ a punch to prevent the follower from sliding back and forth on the spring. We noticed this sliding effect existed as well. The follower appears to be better positioned and tensioned more uniformly when looked at and touched. The old one would tip foward due to the sliding mentioned earlier. I thought this might be part of the prob. I got back home and tried loading rds. in the mag well. Still, it seems like too much effort and difficulty. Cartridge OAL is 2.80-2.805 in. So, over lenght is not the problem.

Hooks tells me this is a major drawback in the Rem. design and this very problem has occured in combat situations. For this reason, he preferrs the Win M70 pre-64 action because of it's loading ease and feeding reliability. He demonstrated as much w/ two M70s of his own. Well, I get all frustrated and think, now what? I really don't know what is wrong w/ my rifle, nor how to fix it if it's fixable.

While driving home, I was having a major pout about all this. I even though about getting one of these modifications done where M1-A mags. can be used. I thought, okay , fine, I'll forsake Remingtons and get a pre-64 M70. My house can burn down, my car can burst into flames, my kids can be kidnapped and sold into slavery, but don't , please God, don't let my M700 malfunction in any way. I just can't take it,Lord. I'm not that strong!! So I drove home sucking my thumb after having lost control of my bladder in the front seat in the fetal position on Hwy I-20. Oh, well, maybe I exaggerate just a bit. But I was a little frustrated and pissed. Has anyone ever experienced this " loading the mag./feeding rds. from the mag." problem.?

Jeff returns to his red flannel hide with a fresh change of Depends and holds his breath hoping against hope for soothing words of wisdom and comfort from his betters at Sniper Country...

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Whimpering like a spineless girly-man in Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 01:41:34 (EDT) 

Jeff A. DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT GO WITH THE M1A/M14 MAG MOD TO THE REMINGTON 700!! If you are finding yourself in the Kent State fetal position over feeding problems now, you will end up like little black sambo running around in ever diminishing circles until you disappear up our own asshole if you try the M1A mag mod. I have a question. Are you shooting short action rounds out of a long action weapon? Sounds like the same problem we have occasionally with the M24 which is built on a long action but shoots 7.62. If this is the case, make sure that you push the rounds all of the way to the rear of the magazine as you fill the mag.

If you are having feeding problems out of a Remington action check out the fit between the floorplate and the magazine box. During assembly you can squeeze the box if you aren't careful which will give you fits trying to get the mag to feed right.

After reading about all of these problems with the Remington 700 actions (feeding, extracters etc.) I find it amazing that both the Army and the USMC found it good enough to build thousands of sniper systems based on it. I had a smart ass comment but I will withhold it.

Guys, be careful who you have work on your rifles. There are a lot of fella's out there with certificates from mail order schools who claim to be gun-smiths. Spend the extra bucks to send it to someone like Armament Technology, Iron Brigade Armory, Texas Brigade Armory etc. Also don't fix it if it ain't broke!!!!!!!

Well manly men. Keep doing it in a manly manner and I will catch y'all on the flip flop.

Gooch
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 03:29:51 (EDT) 

I got a call from my gun shop and was asked if I wanted the DM added to my custom work on my new left-handed Rem.700 VS. (no such thing as a left-handed PSS) So a friend at a local department said that they just got some new Rem.700 light tactical DM rifles with 20in. barrels and to come down an check them out. I thought that the DM was quite impressive, which leads me to think that Mr. Murphy had something to do with this. (Sneaky Bastard!!!)
Before I say do or don't about this, can the DM be trusted?

Russ,
I was born on a short notice. Just let me know when your wanting to go. And stay away from country music!
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
getting colder here, in Chicago USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 04:30:03 (EDT) 

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 04:32:02 (EDT) 

Thanks for the info...after the move it seemed like I lost touch with the rest of the world. LOL as a matter of fact when I got back going to wal mart was like going to the mall.

Anyone got pet loads for a 300WM with a 200grain spbt?

on knives...I like my EK Bowie and my Navy MK I mod O
Ferguson <ref@wf.net>
WF, TX USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 12:04:23 (EDT) 

About 8 months ago I purchased a B&L 4000 Elite 6x24 power scope based on the sound advice of Scott Powers and Russell Taylor.

I'm satisfied with the scope's performance to date and would recomend it to anyone who needed a scope like this.For the money I feel this product has a lot of value.

I'm looking now for a lower power variable scope in the 4-16x or 6-18x power range.My initial instinct tells me to buy the B&L 4000 Elite 4-16x varmint scope since I've had good luck with the 6-24x model.

My requirements besides the specified power range would be as follows:adjustable objective,target knobs,1/4 click adjustments and preferably matte black in colour,and 40mm bell.

However,I'm open to suggestions and have been iterested in the Burris offering as well as others on the market.Leupolds make scopes in this power range but they are substantially more money than I was looking to spend and I have doubts that they would be as good a buy.

I'd appreciate anybody's comments/suggestions on this scope selection.

Thanks,
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 12:59:41 (EDT) 

I thank you for your email and the Roster post as well. I just now read both. I see no bust on anybody in it. As a matter of fact, I see your comment about the possible" squeeze effect" as a damn good observation.

When loading the 3rd rd., I will encounter resistance that, in my opinion, shouldn't be there. Moreso when attempting to load rd. no. 4.
No. 4 is really a bitch. I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to,but, the mag is a piece fo metal w/ the opening or split at the back. It basically fits in to the opening in bottom of the reciever body when you reassemble it to place it back into the stock. When out of the stock, the two edges of the backside split of the mag well body are just touching or close to it. They also appear to be flush or even, to my eyes, at least.

Now, once back in the stock, w/ screws tightened down, the "line" where the two edged of the split touches appears like it might protrude forward ever so slightly. Not as even or as "flush" as when removed from the stock. Might this be an indication of the squeeze effect you referred to? If there is a squeeze that shouldn't be there, then it could cause a slight deminsional change and, hence, resistance to the loading and perhaps the feeding of rds. I looked this for quite a while last night and wondered. This is my untrained observation,please understand, but it either is congruent w/ what you suggest or at least I, by virtue of neurotic conjecture(what?), am making it fit with what I'm seeing.

In other words, it just don't look rite.

If this were the cause, what would be the solution? The stock is an HS Precision tactical.

I do have another M700 SA mag well body that I'm tempted to see if switching would help. Or, does some surface or point need to be releived to eliminate the squeeze effect? Not being a gunsmith, I just don't know. Part of me wants to create a solution, I guess, to make this puppy run right.

Anyway, thanks for your input. Hell, you may be closing in on the prob. I asked for help. You've responded. Ain't no bust on anybody or anything from where I'm sitting.

Now, I'm going to work on a wind constant math assighment. Rick? Here goes..

Also, just learned this a.m., that there's a "triple six" tomorrow at Riverbend range. Three strings of fire, 600 yd, prone w/ scoped rifle. Front support(bipod or bag) allowed. This is what I want to try:

Berger 185vld w/ 44.0gr N150. This load tracks perfectly w/ the 308 "cam" on my M3 at 100,200, and 300 yd. Haven't shot any longer range nor have I chronographed. Will it hit at or close to the "6" setting on the M3? Beats me. Beleive I'll load up some more and test it at the match tomorrow. In any event, I'll be doing what I need to do most of all ...PULLING THE TRIGGER !!

On to compose a wind constant mantra....
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 14:42:33 (EDT) 

I forgot this part: It's a short action. I do push rds. to the rear. Also, I'll go double check, but I believe there is a small amt of space between floorplate/TG assy. and bottom of mag. body.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Still Smyrna, Ga. USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 15:04:24 (EDT) 

Gooch - Get the day shift! I'm having withdrawal from our IMs. I don't have anybody to use as a sounding board for ideas or to carp to about stupid policy ideas from the ozone layer of the military.

Scott - Point of interest, even Spec Ops uses supressed whisper loads for silent take out. Getting too close to the enemy can be a very bad thing.

Well, better close this one out before I get too long winded on you guys. Hold Hard and let the wind gods be kind. Always remember, "The wind is the shooters friend!!!"

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 21:20:25 (EDT) 

Rick- you have sent some good info here over the past week or so thanks.

Gooch- Congrats on the new job and the best of luck to you.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
state of shock/horror USA - Saturday, October 10, 1998 at 23:36:54 (EDT) 

Is it ok to talk about that or is it still classified, to be put under the heading that can't be confirmed or denied like certian types of weapons that ships can carry?

Confederate
confederate <confederate123@yahoo.com>
possumtown, Mississippi USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 00:47:17 (EDT) 

Stefan out

PS. I bought an extra poncho for the next time we meet, Torsten. Compressed air bottles are currently on backorder......

Stefan <sniper@tref.nl>
Somewhere, Someplace The Netherlands - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 05:58:36 (EDT) 

I realize that this site is for those who have an interest in shooting beyond the socalled "norm" but unless you have been schooled in the field or closely associated with "Target Interdictors", you have no idea of the scope of information and knowledge needed to mount an operation. I believe Mr's Jarrett & Gooch will bear that out. Just having a weapon and ammo and camo doesn't always CYA !!!! Being a former 91B2S and a "old" 11F2S (SF Medic and a "recon &intel" grunt)having a wealth of other info comes in mighty handy.....I don't mean to say we need to teach "in-country" briefs here in SC but what about Land Navigation techniques and some Field 1st Aid for that "just in case" stuff that occurs??? I mean, does any one besides me carry a 1st aid kit in my truck AND one on me when I hunt ???? Nothing major, but say you break a leg while hunting......and your buddies don't expect you back till dark and then a cold front sweeps in ???? How prepared wil you be ?? Got matches??? What about a space blanket or for that matter, any flares ???
Got on the soapbox didn't I ?? Some food for thought, its not always a man and his weapon !! OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Under cover Deep South, USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 07:28:25 (EDT) 

go ahead and give us some of your brain on field first aid!

I have a British Gregson first aid pouch that I added some things to. Its a foldup plastic deal with easy to understand instructions in cartoon like pictures, I have a short length of paracord and a small OD green plastic tag with a red cross attached to it. I stuff the pack in my ruck and let the tag dangle out of the pocket. I have had five concussions so far and on three of them I was unconsious, so I thought it would be a good idea to let other people know where I carry my first aid kit. Have some HIV gloves and a space bag as well, also a small SAM splint.
The small bandaids and Aspirin and the tick tweezers and antiseptic get the most use though. Also, have any of you noted that you end up using the stuff for other buddies most of the time, and they never bother to get their s**t together! A small shaving kit type bag works good for makeing your own kit, take it to a drug store and fill it there, when seing the stuff on the shelf you find more than one uses for some things and 10-15 $ go a long way.

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 10:02:54 (EDT) 

i am a sponge in your ocean of knowledge !

Ende
Torsten
Germany - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 10:17:34 (EDT) 

Ditto on what Torsten Said about learning from you guys,that info went
right into my dope book next to the info I got from SMTC. Thanks guys!

Sitting here, as comfortable as a politican at a liers convention
savoring a Yankee win deep in Indian country! (ya know what I mean Al O.)

D. WEST: Did ya get my mail? I'm home most of the day.

Al.B
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <Rempss@aol.com>
N.Y. USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 12:52:03 (EDT) 

Stay hard.
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 16:24:52 (EDT) 

Rick,
As always, thanks for sharing your knowledge with everybody!

Gooch, If you can't send it, don't worry, just tell me some things I got to have in it.

Al O,
Thanks for the info.

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Wishing I was back, In the boonies! USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 17:43:30 (EDT) 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Same, thing USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 17:47:08 (EDT) 

OK guys really want to know stuff on first aid??? If you REALLY want to know I'll put something together and have Russ post it! OK so what gives Old Sarge the idea he can offer anything? Wellllll - I'm, as we all know, a retired US Army E-7 was 91B40 (combat medic) for most of those 20 years, last year being spent as a flight medic (2/507th Air Ambulance Co Ft Bliss, Texas, which was also a MAST unit, we did civilian type air evacuation services to include the surrounding civilian community). When I retired went to work full time as a EMT-Intermediate for an ambulance service, was an EMT instructor, and am currently a Registered Nurse! I also hold certifications as a CPR instructor, Advanced Cardiac Life Support Provider, and Pediatric Advanced Life Support provider! Yep I know we have a few ex-military medics and a few paramedics, and even at least one other RN that hangs out here so if you all REALLY want some first aid "training" let me know and I'll get with the rest of the "medics" here and we'll get something together! Yes Butter Bar I'll get with you on all the proper disclaimers!!! Got to give the lawyers their two cents!
Medics e-mail me lets get something together!

Sarge withdraws and waits for incoming wounded!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 18:39:29 (EDT) 

Grey <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 18:43:30 (EDT) 

Danny: Al your pal sent me the pics of your naked hairy body, I'm gonna have it enlarged by Lemay and hang it in the class room.

Al: You gotta go to work for Penthouse, you were able to find the soft side of Danny.
 

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 21:28:51 (EDT) 

Al B. Al O. here. Happy as a politician at a liars convention - I like that. What I don't like is being one game down to you New Yawka's. We may be down, but we're not out - yet!

Confederate: I don't know about reality and the assassin ation attempt on Ol' Saddam's life, but an interesting read is a Book called "Shadow Over Babylon", which deals with the same subject from a Brit's perspective. Good readin' stuff.

Stagger: Dropped your rifle, huh!. Some people are just class A grade A inconsiderate assholes. Muzzle drops I can live with, and that is why I always do a recessed target crown on my rifles. Drops on you mounted $1000.00 scopes really make your ass pucker!

Spin Drift: I have heard this only mentioned one other time. Marius, can you be a little more specific about what spin drift is. Just as I am getting over the heartbreak of psoriasis, now you give me spin drift to worry about.

Somebody also mentioned (and I apologize for not remembing who it was) , but the gist of the comment was know your gunsmith, know his work, and if possible, see his work and talk with people who use his work. I couldn't agree with your comments more. There are a lot of hacks out there that say can do this and that. Promise you the world and you get back something that an Italian Carcano could outshoot. Pay the top buck to have it done right the first time.

Sarge, I had no idea you were a peter checker. I guess all those people living in Area 51 do need help. How can you get rid of glowing in the dark? Just kidding!

al
AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Ready to burn Chief Wahoo in effigy in the saddened state of , Ohio USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 21:37:21 (EDT) 

Pat: I've been useing duel dovetails for about six years and have not had any problem with them. The weak point in most mounts is the tiny little screws that you attach them with.

Basso: Did you get your TBA rifle? How long did it take from order date to delivery?

Sarge: How far is it from Area 51 N.M. to Vernal, Utah? I agree with you on the medical aspect of field work. I've been an EMT-I for thirteen years, but think I might hang it up next year. Maybe we could get a match going in the four corners area.

Gooch: May get to use some of that field craft this week. Elk season is on and I got the call for an observation detail on some bad hunters. Shouldn't be too bad they will be all orange and I'll be all green. Might get to use the ghillie.

SOF..Have to agree with Mr. Bain on this one. Has changed since the first time I went. But then again where else can you meet, Mr Bain, Mr. Ryan, Mrs. Jeff Cooper, Lindy Cooper Wisdom, Torsten,Phill Dater, ect. ect. It was pretty bad, so we're going back next year.

175's: They shoot as tight or tighter than the 168's. All Federal match.

Scope rings: You can get Badger Ordnance rings and bases from Brownells.

If this thing double posts...I can allready feel the incoming from Russ.

PL retires to place another layer of sand bags over his small home in the weeds.

Pat
Pat L <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, Utah USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 21:52:56 (EDT) 

A word on Devcon Plastic Steel: "strong." The stuff makes Brownells Acra-Glas steel bedding look sick by comparison. I think it was Pat "Mr. Bullet" Murphy who suggested this stuff, so let me say "thank you, Pat." Guys, if you're bedding any heavy shooters, need to repair the kitchen sink, or working on anything else major, Devcon Plastic Steel is simply the cat's pajamas.

The Turret Tagz article has been updated with photographs.

Marius: A public "thank you" for all the work you've done on the website in the past few days.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 23:02:12 (EDT) 

To Al: Regarding David Mason's Shadow Over Babylon, it's my favorite book to date and is what inspired me to build the aforementioned rifle. Good plot, good action, good details. Mason was in the British S.A.S. and it shows in his work. There is a review of the book here on this website.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 03:17:49 (EDT) 

I met this Ukranian Officer at a Nato firepower demo. She told me she was commanding a Sniper platoon, I think Major Hooters was her name.

Gooch and Al B.
of course the other half of my sponge is reserved for Gooches input. I am thinking about a Biomechanical Zip drive!

Sarge,
exellent idea, Council ! please ad something to SC in form of a first aid course. We just did another "freshen upper" on infusions. Since the Bundeswehr attends SFOR duties we all have a small transfusion kit in our NBC kit bag.

SPR started in Germany, I´ll go see it this week. *Gulp!*

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 03:43:47 (EDT) 

Streliaj Rovno (Shoot Straight in Russian)

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet. att.net>
North of the clean sparkling Cuyahoga River in the colorful Republic of , Ohio USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 05:54:37 (EDT) 

Refering to the .338 Lapua Magnum information on Dakota Arms' website... well, I'm not going to use the "L" word, but I immediately raised an eyebrow at the published "stats" of 2800 FPS with a three-hundred grain bullet! Now, a 250-grain bullet, okay, I'll buy that -- but a .338 Lapua Magnum pushing a 300-grainer at 2800 FPS out of a 28-inch barrel? With safe chamber pressures? (I couldn't help but notice the conspicuous absence of load data that supported this claim.) Maybe one of you European types (TorF, Stefan, or Torsten) can come up with some printed load data that claims this kind of performance.

I'll check through my manuals for supporting data when I get home.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 07:31:56 (EDT) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 11:29:02 (EDT) 

Gooch you devil! All I had was an M7. It just couldn’t hack the wire! I was down quietly slashing away when the poor guy on the LP walked up to see why in hell his commo just when dead. It was funny as hell. He whispers "BLUE!" and MY security element says "NIGHTMARE!!!" and lights him up with an M-60 from about two feet. All the while I am still on the ground hacking away at the darn wire as I wanted to steal a 20 feet segment out of the line. What a screw up. After that I became a real fan of the Leatherman tool. Ah well. All’s well that ends well. The "good guys" (PLDC trainees) called in 88mike-mike at 30 meters, Danger Close! We took off down the mountain in a running fire fight (read turn tail and RUN!). End result? They lost a load of guys to friendly fire. I loved playing OPFOR….

D. West: the real question should be; do you actually NEED a DM? I say no. But you might feel differently. To me, this is just another gadget. It probably works very well, but a plain old factory box mag will be as useful and you can not lose it. To reiterate the time proven theory - Keep it Simple. Save your money for optics. Remington in this case is just jumping on the Browning Band wagon. And do not feel bad about the lefty thing. The VS and the PSS action are one in the same. The only reason the PSS is not offered in a left hand action is because the H.S. precision PSS stock doesn’t come in a lefty model yet.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 11:30:46 (EDT) 

I swear, Hollywood should just get out of the business of portraying troops in the field. Some people really take their bullshit to heart. Think of Barrenger filing the tip of a M118 in "Sniper", or Stalone doing his thing with a 60, or worse yet, big Arnold free holding a gatling. I would LOVE to see that at the range!

Will: Good call on other topics. We need to cover fieldcraft a lot more but we are limited on what can be done via the Roster. Land nav is a good issue to bring up. If a guy can not do this, he is…ahem…Lima Lima Mike…But how do we cover this via this medium? Guys? Suggestions? Also, on the issue of med kits, this is a no-shit topic and needs addressing. How many guys remember to take along this stuff? How many bring epinephrin, cortazone, and benedril besides band-aids? It is not a "glamorous" topic, but one well worth the space.

Scott <xring>
USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 11:50:14 (EDT) 

Besides, I had let you-all win for a CHANGE! I knew you wuz gittin’ all demoralized! Had I been there, everyone would have been crying da blues. You taught me to kick ass and take names after all, even with this here high speed Berretta stomping Tanfoglio! ;-)

Basso? Ha! My MAMA Shoots faster than Danny Boy! Hoist me!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 11:52:14 (EDT) 

LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 12:01:47 (EDT) 

Weapons handling.

When I was with Marine Corps Security Forces we had clearing barrels outside of all of our armorys and many areas such as the post where guard details were posted. Post standers were required to "unload and show clear" to the Sgt of the Guard then place the muzzle of the weapon into the opening of the barrel and close the action then dry fire into the barrel. If people are properly trained and SUPERVISED you should never have a round go off into the barrel.

Proper weapons handling is a pet peeve of mine. I've seen 2 people shot during training and I was almost a third one. One was by a Private at Parris Island who wanted to go home so he shot himself in his hand with an M16 and the other was during CQB training due to a ate up holster. Both incidents were operator headspace errors even though they were properly trained and supervised. (My incident was at BSR by an idiot on our CQB team who couldn't stay in his sector during room clearing ops.) Murphy is alive and well and I met him and his son in Wyoming!!!!!!

One of the USMC headquarters units had a clearing barrel outside of the CP in Desert Storm. It had a score board above it for negligent discharges into the barrel. It was junior enlisted vs Senior enlisted/Officers. The Senior enlisted and Officers won the contest by far.

I believe in the 4 Jeff Cooper safety rules.

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point your weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to fire.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Gooch is out of here.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 13:02:40 (EDT) 

Gotta run.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 13:40:23 (EDT) 

He , and myself are looking for a can of 173 Grainers for making our own M118, cant shoot "hollowpoints" onour f**kt up Bundeswehr ranges anymore. Polymer bullett traps!

Any input ?? Cant get them through the CMP. Help !

Ende

PS get to play OPFOR again tommorow, they also will medevak us with a CH 53. Hehehe, ist a shitty job, but someone has to do it.
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germania - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 14:40:34 (EDT) 

Thanks
Grey <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 15:08:26 (EDT) 

The web site of the Marine Scout/Sniper outfit (2/23, I think,) in California has as good an explanation RE: map reading and getting around as one is going to find in this format.

The best method is to buy a topo map of one's favorite stomping area, acquire a reliable compass, and go learn how to use the stuff. Computing the differences between true and magnetic north, recognizing terrain features on the map, determining azimuths/reverse azimuths, etc, are just things that have to be learned by doing.

Remember:
No one can really determine what is the best load for your rifle but You.
No one can dope the windage and elevation characteristics of your shooting setup but You.
It seems as though more than a few readers of this site believe that someone else can do most of the legwork for them RE: The above topics.
Experience is the best teacher. Go get some.
Scott
USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 17:23:39 (EDT) 

se-ya

Mike Evand <mevans@kih.net>
frankfort, ky USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 18:24:00 (EDT) 

Stay hard
Brent

Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 21:19:07 (EDT) 

Now, to my friend Al O.: Are you sorry you said mean and hurtful things to me? Did you happen to watch the the game? What was the score? Tommorow night it's all over for The Indians, so stock up on
kleenex.

SC council: Can I make negative remarks here about something thats in the review that I'm sorry I bought, and don't want others to waste money on?

Patiently waiting to make more noise than two skeletons screwing on a tin roof when the Yankees win at home tommorow.

Al B.
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
N.Y. USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 21:42:33 (EDT) 

My booboo. The USMC para-phrased sensei Coopers' safety rules and I guess I kind of hybridized them. Never been to Gunsight myself. We used a lot of Coopersans stuff in the Marine Security Forces.

Damn! That's my first mistake this year. Or was it my second? Let's see there was the error computing the realtionship of time space continuoms effect of the speed of light when changing my U-joints this weekend...THen there was the thing with the Orangatang and the ghillie suit. Hmmm. Oh well, now Rod will refuse to hire me. I guess there is always the Legion.

Anybody out there know French?

Gooch
 

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, October 12, 1998 at 22:23:18 (EDT) 

OK I've had several return e-mails on the first aid thing so I'll get on it as soon as I get back from Florida. Brent, William I WILL be in touch by e-mail, we need to do this right!. I'm leaving Wednesday morning for Daytona Beach and will be attending the NASCAR Pepsi 400 on Saturday night!!! I should be back in the AO by sometime LATE Sunday night. In the mean time everyone shoot straight and watch for incoming!

Sarge crawls back in his hide for, hopefully, a full nights sleep!!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 00:10:09 (EDT) 

Time to log off and see if I can get the rest of the damn Hoppes off my hands...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 00:46:38 (EDT) 

the Legion spoke German after WWII and now its mostly Russian. So you may get along without having to learn french.
 

"Der Oberfeldwebel" <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 02:40:48 (EDT) 

I handled a 22-250 last night at a gun store and was suprised that it had almost no rifleing ?? They were there, but looked like a smoothbore with some very even toolmarks to me ?? Is this normal ??
Also this barrel nut deal is a rip of from an old Anschütz that Savage jumped on after the patent ran out. I think Savage even worked with Anschütz at some time back and imported some of their rifles.

They also had some "stenchless" Rem´s there, stock barrelchannel was crooked on both of them. I´ll stick with my sqare Mauser 86SR guy´s.

But on second thought, I remember that 7 Shermans can outgun one Tiger.

Ende

PS any input on those 173 Grain M118 Bullets ?
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 03:03:15 (EDT) 

On safe gun handling techniques, I've always enjoyed the TRUE story of the gangbanger who 1) ejected the round from the chamber his pistol, 2) dumped the magazine, and then 3) held it to his own temple, said to his gangbanger friend "See? It's safe now" and pulled the trigger. Darwin's Theory of Evolution in action. You know who scares me, though? Guys behind gun counters. Not so much the guys in GUN stores, but the guys at the "gun counter" in places like K's Merchandise, Walmart, and so forth. Most of them don't know a trigger from a hammer, don't know the difference between SA, DA, and DAO, and often confuse the slide release for the slide safety. (( shudder ))

The military has softened too much, due to Mommy and Daddy America writing to their congressmen complaining about the treatment of "poor Johnny" while he's in basic training or at boot camp. When I grew up, it was in a family (paternal side) of shooters. Indiscretions in gun handling resulted in immediate and liberal corporal punishment of one form or another. It's AMAZING how fast a kid can learn proper gun handling techniques (I think I can count my mistakes on one hand, with fingers left over). Dad was a Marine, in the '50s, when the Drill Instructor could still beat the s**t out of you because he didn't like your looks, your home town, your last name, your... well, you get the idea. Though I don't have any "documented cases," I'm pretty sure that improprieties in gun handling were dealt with in such a fashion that mistakes were rarely repeated. As an officer in the Army, I have policy dictated to me and I have my orders. There are "prescribed procedures" for dealing with idiots on the range who lateral a live round to the left or right instead of downrange. However, personally, I'm all for letting the drill sergeants take turns bodyslamming the idiot's face into the dirt, on the spot, in front of his peers, repeatedly and in a vigorous manner. PVT Snuffy would be, I feel, less likely to repeat the offense, and the others in his platoon would "get the message" as well. Now, however... well, too many idiots are taking out too many competent individuals.

When it comes to safe gun handling, an occasional beating does wonders. Of course, this is NOT official United States Army policy.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 03:04:49 (EDT) 

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 03:26:02 (EDT) 

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 03:30:25 (EDT) 

2800+ fps with the 300gr Sierra MK seems a bit optimistic. I've seen 2650fps data. Can't remember the load. I don't think the thickwalled Lapuacases have enough capasity for a 300gr@2850fps. The 338 Lapua is a candidate for improvement, straight walled/30deg shoulder. Then I would believe 2850fps. You should have more luck with the 338/378.

To Bill, re. Tikka 595 Sporter.

Tikka sporters are exellent rifles. The actions are very stiff. Good trigger. Very short locktime. Barrels are Sako. They usually shoot better than Sako-actioned rifles with the same barrel. There are several makers of scopemounts that make rings for the 5/8" rails (indestructable) on the action. CZ/BRNO (22Hornet/.223) steelrings are the cheapest. In Scandinavia the Tikka is the rifle to beat in production BR-matches. The Tikka in .308 needs a good beddingjob and 168gr Sierra in front of 43gr VV N140. McMillan made the M40 stock for the old M55 action. I have an old M55 that has its 3rd barrel. It works better for me than a Rem 40XRKS.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 04:32:00 (EDT) 

Al B.
what's that on the "tracking sticks"? Sounds interesting. Do you care to explain it in more detail here?

Also on the ( negative ) comments you want to raise - if that's truthfully how you feel, what you found and what you think - please do. our purpose is to provide a service to our visitors. Being independent ( i.e. paying for the site from our OWN pockets ) we are not beholden to anyone. We need to say what needs to be said - and that includes our visitors.

I see this as another opportunity for us, and our visitors. Raise your comments - we can pick it up and add it, as seperate entries, to our reviews.

Al O.
about the Magnus Effect. I started reading up on it, but could actually find very little in the shooting disciplines on it. It only comes into effect on the longer ranges, and I am very sure that under 800 metres it doesn't really have an affect. Not on the normal long-distance shooter anyway. The other effects, like wind, misjudging the distance, breath-control, muzzle velocity spread etc. all have more influence than the small affect the spin drift has. I now can't quite remember whether it actually goes to the side or upwards - I'll have to take a look again. But, in any case, it is not that much of an influence. It works on the same principles as the dimpled golf ball, the spin baseball pitchers get, airlift of an aeroplane wing etc., in other words on the wind speed and pressure differential between the two different surfaces. Things like the dimples on the golf ball assist it.
Hope I didn't confuse the issue too much. :-)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 05:07:02 (EDT) 

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 05:20:12 (EDT) 

Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Bayou Country, Louisiana USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 07:33:31 (EDT) 

Brownells, Inc.
Dept. 016
200 South Front Street
Montezuma, IA 50171

Phone: 515-623-5401
FAX: 515-623-3896

You can drop them a line via E-mail.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 08:03:17 (EDT) 

Sgt G

FIRE FOR EFFECT!!!
SGT.G
Ches, VA USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 08:31:07 (EDT) 

Manius,
Your right on the mangus effect it is minimal only inch's at 1000yds. and there will be other things that will effect the bullet more. I read a good article on it too but I can't remember where.

Russ,
Glad the Devcon worked out for you!! I stumbled across it by accident and I haven't used anything else since.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 11:10:37 (EDT) 

I have been debating on getting started in rifle shooting and it seems like the most fun and challenging way to go is with tactical shooting. Anyway, being on a limited budget I have narrowed my rifle choices to either a Savage or Rem 700PSS(leaning very heavily towards the Sav. b/c of price). My question comes regarding scopes. I know I can't afford a Leupold Mk IV and the B&L is also a bit on the high end of things for me. So it seems that my choices come to the Tasco, Springfield Armory, or the Leupold Vari-XIII 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M3. They are all within $100 of each other. So the question is which one? Has anyone had any experience with the Springfield scopes??? As for the Leupold, what type of adjustments does it have? Can't seem it tell if it comes with a BDC ot traget type adjustments and the Leupold site does not have that info. Since I will be reloading I think I would like target knobs so that I can adjust for each batch more easily. Any words of wisdom are greatly appreciated.

LM
Laszlo M <lmarkos@texas.net>
Round Rock, TX USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 11:49:41 (EDT) 

Scott...you really are the evil oppressor of the Winchester...You seemed like such a nice level headed guy. Go figure. Because of your tirade against the Win. I went ahead and put a PSS on lay-away. Then I'll probably get the AT in January...TWO Remingtons! I just wanted you to know that you have affected my life in a most negative way...forcing me to see reality....Yuck. You Yankee Devil you.

Rod: Put the picture of Dan on SC! ...oh yeah, this is a family place. never mind.

To anyone on SC...Has anybody run across ballistic data for the .300 Win Mag. the 180 and 190 grain match loads?
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
City by the Sea, Fl. USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 12:35:47 (EDT) 

Al, you have already been given the go. Start writing. We want to present useful information on this site, both pro and con. If that means nay saying a product so be it.

Lazlo M: Current retail prices for the scopes you asked about:

Leupold 3.5-10x VX-III M3 LR: $677 (Sparten Supply)
Tasco SS10x42: $360 to $400 depending on retailer
Tasco SS10x42M: $475 to $550 depending on retailer
Springfield: Don't know. Don't like 'em. Don't like them at all.

The M3 LR is a good scope. It has two types of markings on the elevation turret. Both 1 minute increments and a BDC marking for METERS. Windage is half minutes. This scope is configured a lot like the Mk4 M3, only there is no unessesary scope caps. The turrets are sealed and large enough to work well in all conditions. The markings on the BDC go from 100 meters to 1000 meters and below this are tick marks for minutes that are marked numericallty every five minutes. This is a great feature. You can either adjust using the BDC or Minutes, which I pefer. Best of all, there is room to add markings once you know your zero's. Just cover the meter markings and place your own data there.

The best buy on the market is probably the Tasco SS10x42. It was build supposedly to compete with or replace the M3A only at half the price. Lot of good features for the money. For a civilian shooter the 1/4 minute Turrets make more sense and you have room to add your own marking on the turret.

Forget the Springfield. We have covered this in prior Rosters so you might want to check out the archive. Also, if you want a PSS but can not afford it, buy the 700 VS (approx $450 to $500). It has the same action and barrel as the PSS and the stock is the same except for the contour. Also, the 700 VS factory stock is far superior to the factory Savage Tactical stock, which is why the Savage is so affordable. If they put a good stock on that model, they'd have to charge $480 or more. I am not slamming them mind you. This is just how Savage keeps the rifle so affordable.

Good luck and welcome to the money pit!
scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 12:56:11 (EDT) 

Grey mentioned the Emergency Responder class. There are several forms of these around, but the best overall seems to be the one from the American Red Cross (which is the one I ended up taking.) It's also recognized by the DoT. Duration is normally something like 45 hours. Of course it's designed for every-day-USA, not for snipers in the field but it's still a good class and I would recommend it as a good place to start.

I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of sagely advice Sarge and the others put together. It's always a pleasure to set my brain to Maximum Absorption when reading through Duty Roster. If only Russ knew how much I'd pay to get at all the wisdom that gets shared here... My appreciation to all of the regulars is endless.
 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 13:07:06 (EDT) 

I have made a coment on the roster that should not belong here.

Please exuse the comparison of US vs German Armor I added to a previous mail. I regret that it got here, but its out and I am sorry if I stepped on someones toes.

I`ll take full responsebilety for it, but reserve the right to add that is was a quote from my brother in law who is a Lt.Col. ret. and West Point graduate, he was in Korea and twice in Vietnam and I spend four years in his home were he shared a lot of his thoughts with me.

Thank you

Torsten Erning
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 13:15:55 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 13:24:30 (EDT) 

Would anyone reccomend the German style reticle. I'm thinking about sending my Burris off to have this done. If this is a bad idea someone please let me know.

Roy out...
Roy <thomason@cos.saic.com>
CO USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 14:04:51 (EDT) 

Military Ballistics : A Basic Manual (Land Warfare ; V. 13)
by G. M. Moss, D. W. Leeming, C. L. Farrar
Our Price: $39.95
Paperback 1st englis edition (August 1996)
Brasseys Inc; ISBN: 185753084

There is also an exelent article on the net:
How do bullets fly ?
http://www.povn.com/~4n6/index.htm

It's written by a german policeofficer who works in forensic ballistics. He has also written the only public available program to take spin drift into account:

http://home.t-online.de/home/ruprecht.nennstiel/eb.htm

The program uses the Modified Point Mass Model (MPMM) where all the popular programs only uses Point Mass Model (PMM).

Safe shooting

John
John R. Jensen <johnson@cs.auc.dk>
Aalborg, Denmark - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 15:22:12 (EDT) 

gooch.kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherman, AR USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 15:39:55 (EDT) 

Gooch & Bain,
The shirts "Finally" arrived today so I will fix you both up a care package and send it off this week. Are your address's still current with what I have?? Also Gooch did Dolan want one?? I couldn't remember.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 16:02:54 (EDT) 

Dave: welcome to my hell. To make it short and simple, use yards. I used meters for the longest time, but if you want to use inches you may as well go with yards as things get real confusing when you are constantly doing mental conversions. If your BDC is meters it is a simple matter to remark it. Jumping back and forth between the two systems can lead to some interesting misses! Gooch, What say you?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 16:07:42 (EDT) 

useful tips: keep the track between you and the sun or flashlight when looking at it-don't just look at the horizon of the track, the floor of the track is the only true track.

This only scratches the surface of tracking, but this much can help find wounded game. Practice Practice and when you get enough dirt time I'll tell you how to determine if the track is male or female and even how to tell the difference between coyote or dog.

I'll repost about that review later.
 

Hey Al.O Tonights the night!

Al.B
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
N.Y. USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 17:42:40 (EDT) 

Converting meters to yards add 10 percent, yards to meters subtract 10 percent. 453 meters becomes 453 plus 45.3 equals 498.3 yards. Even the jugheads can do it.

My zero summary chart has both yards and meters as well as centigrade/fahenheit.

I will email Mr Bain a copy of this chart tonight to put on this site if he see's fit.

I am out of here men!

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 18:12:31 (EDT) 

The Scout/Sniper Platoon I referenced in an earlier post is STA 2/23, which is part of H&S Co 2nd BN 23rd Marines, Encino, CA

The address I came up with is HTTP:// WWW. GEOCITIES.COM/Pentagon/Quarters/2102/

I have never accessed this page with the above address.
I have always gained access in some roundabout way that I'm not sure I can explain. Hope this info. helps.
Scott
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 18:38:57 (EDT) 

I tried that address without all the upper case letters and it worked.
Scott
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 18:49:09 (EDT) 

Those two previous messages I posted to xring regarding the Scout/Sniper platoon web page were for you, I guess. I dialed the wrong number. Sorry.
Scott
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 18:56:32 (EDT) 

Bad points:
1. My biggest bitch is the paper it's made of,(Dupont Tyvek)damn near impossible to write on with pencil in dry conditions never mind wet.

2.The pages are to small to get any useful info on. Thats why we have dope books right?

3. The mildot master fits but just barely.

4. For $85 there should be some more hard data in it other than a two inch by two inch square of wind observations that on the bottom says 20 mph+ "DOPE BOOK BLOWS AWAY!" (Hey these guys need to go to SMTC so Rod can show them that targets CAN be hit at 700+yards in 30 mph winds).

This is my opinion and you all know what their like, some of you might like it,but I was expecting alot more for the money. OK I'm done venting.

Gonna watch the game in the hot tub with my new honey tonight.
(Chicks love it when you have a hot tub) on the 1MC.. DIVE!!...DIVE!!

Damn I'm so immature.

Al
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 20:10:20 (EDT) 

Guys, I mentioned spin drift for the fun of it. A normally weighted and stabilized bullet travels nose down during descent of trajectory and normal spin drift occurs in the direction of the spin, ie right for right spun barrels. This drift would run about .25 moa at 1000. We use spin drift for the 168 because of the rounds tendency to fall nose high from being over stabilzed past 700. This drift runs about .5 moa at 800. This is farther than you should shoot that bullet. It is optimized for 600 yards or about 554 meters.

On Yards and meters, go with what Gooch said. If you are shooting man sized targets then the average person from about 5'6" to about 6'6" is 1 meter from head to groin. The height difference is in the long bones of the legs. So you can easily compute into ranges in meters based on head to groin measurement of 1 meter. It works out to be 1000 divided by whatever your mil reading is on the target. The M3 scopes are set up in meters, so a direct dial in is easy. If meters throw you then do the tape over gimmick as previously stated by Scott, I believe. If you have a Mil Dot Master then it will make no difference since it computes in both yards and meters. I DO highly recommend that you buy one if you are working in Mils. If you do night work, consider the pilot's finger tip light for illumination.

Torsten - Why apoligize for a valid observation? And as stated, that was if they suckerd them from the rear!

Brent - I'd be very carful with the Abumin, it takes fluids out of the tissue to replace blood lose. Fine if the person is hydrated, however if the wound is a burn, crush injury, or simple dehydration, you could do more damage then good. I'd stay away from Albumin unless it was an open wound and the person was hydrated. Just thoughts on passing events. My chose would be the Ringers, good all around fluid for first response situations.

Russ - Becareful with your Gang Banger story. Unfortunately I have observed, and reacted too slowly, the same thing with active duties. Difference being the shot was into the clearing barrel outside the messhall.

Guess I've stuck my nose into enough things tonight. Hold Hard Guys!!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 21:39:17 (EDT) 

The training book is similiar to a competitive shooters data book with the purpose being the attainment of zero's for varying enviromental conditions. It should be protected from the field as it is the sum total of all of the rounds you fire from that gun with different lots of ammo.

The mission log book has firing data in zero summary tables as well as items such as field expedient antenna info, formulas for wind, angle firing, report formats etc. It also contains the log book, field sketches, range cards and target engagment data sheets for that particular mission. Carbons are made as the mission progresses and the originals are turned in to the S-2/intell weenies upon return. I have a prototype which I plan on developing with SMTC when I get up there.

On Torsten's post re: Tigers v Shermans. I had privately voiced my concern to him that his post might be misunderstood. I could see some dick weed coming back with some anti-German tirade such as "Well we kicked your k#@$t ass now didn't we?" Sorry if I played the PC sensitive type this time. Didn't want another situation to develop with our German friends such as what happend a couple of month's ago re: an old post that someone found in the archives. I know Torsten is a big boy but I was just voicing a concern to him. Sorry Torsten!!
 

Gooch picks up his toys and goes home.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 22:26:04 (EDT) 

D.West <westforce@juno.com>
Orland Park, IL USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 22:28:06 (EDT) 

Thanks to the both of you for your response to my Rem. feeding/mag. problem. I haven't done anything yet. I'm thinking about getting an in.-lb. torque wrench before I start loosening stock/action screws. I would at least like to remove the barreled action from the stock a check out the fit as far as the mag. body and the fp/tg step down. The fp/tg is a steel aftermarket from Harris Gunworks. There appears to be the slightest line of space btwn the bottom of the mag and the "frame" or step down part of the tg/fp. If I do remove it, I certianly want to know that there is 65 in lb put back on it. I'll get it fixed somehow. The rifle is too good to be treated otherwise.

Scott:

I won't give up this Rem. It performs too well. I did, however, locate a M70 Classic in a used featherweight chambered for 280 rem. That makes it a long action, I guess. Hardly been shot at all. I really shouldn't have , but....well. uh.. it's... uh.. in my basement now. I tried to contact my therapist to help me contain my compulsive urges, but he is still in detox undergoing dialysis and plasma phoresis for excessive gasoline huffing so he wasn't available. I fiddled with that action. It felt slicker that eel sh*t on an ice flow. I pulled my Visa faster than Roland the Gunslinger can pull his sandelwood revolver and the game was over. Don't know what I'm going to do to it yet. One things for sure. No problems w/ short action mag well lenght limitations.

I let Hook Boutin look it over today. He gave it his blessing. He removed the firing pin. He put some cartridges in the mag. and said to shuck em out as fast as I could. Just like lightening coated w/ mercury!!! I did this 4 or 5 times. Perfect.

So, I'm a slut. What can I say? But, I'm a well armed, excited slut.

Pat:

Man, thanks a million!!! I got your snail mail today. Got the tables right here in front of me. Didn't know you the vel. was 2700 out of a 26 in barrel. I noticed the 15.5 MOA at 600. The "6" mark on my M118 cap for the M3 is 16 minutes. I may just hit the target a time or two this weekend. The targets at 1000, btw, are 4 x 8 ft sheets of 3/8 in steel that are mounted on telephone poles. The "aiming black" is a 1 MOA dot with a 2 MOA circle around it.

I shot in a match Sun. that was prone at 600 yd. God, it was fantastic!!! Three strings, 20 shots, 600 pissible(make that possible) points. For the first time EVER, I saw and heard things that I'd only heretofore read about in the literature. Bullet trace: While spotting for another shooter, I saw the trace. I got goosebumps, I swear. Then, when it was my turn in the target pits, I heard my first supersonic cracks, followed by the rifles' report. These are truly spiritually stimulating events. I think I provided some comic relief due to the "silly new guy" shit eating gleeful grin that I could not supress. I know I'm sort of preaching to the choir, but it was truly magnificent. To experience these things for the first time along with the esprit de corps atmosphere that pervaded the day is a pure, clean, karma that you can actually taste... But, you gentlemen already know that...

Jeff levitates back to his hide, reciting his monosyllabic sniper wannabe mantra, pops a fresh co2 cylinder into his temperature-controled Barbara The Nailer doll and shuts the hell up.....

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 22:54:20 (EDT) 

I made an error on the last post. In my zeal, I forgot to say thank you to you for you poat re: the Rem. magazine feeding problem. Please accept my apology and my sincere thanks

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Fighting a bloated Barbara the Nailer dol and losing in Smyrna, USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 23:04:23 (EDT) 

I rather like the Tyvek sheets, I write on them with a pen and it works great. I'd use a pencil if I had to, but not normally, although I had no trouble using pencil (Al maybe try softer lead?)... The best thing about this paper is that unlike normal paper it won't fray, tear, and fall apart if it gets wet and as Gooch pointed out the data is *very* important and should be protected. I bought mine to be used as a log book, not a field book (which is partially an optimized set of data taken from the log book, etc.) but protected under cordura and with waterproof/tearproof pages so when it does go someplace unpleasant it should be up for it. This is definitely the toughest unit I've seen.

As previously mentioned, there is probably no such thing as an ideal book for any given user that can be bought commercially. There are obviously a lot of different wants and needs. For example, how many people want their "logbook" to be able to hold a calculator? How many want a logbook that's much bigger than the NSW unit?

I don't think the NSW book is ideal either, but it's the best thing I've seen for what I want. Obviously, Al's mileage has varied and I hope my review didn't mislead you somehow Al.

Dave <dave@broadsword.cm>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, October 13, 1998 at 23:35:53 (EDT) 

Cory, you turn coat you, how can you bring your self to shack up with one of those little Arkansas tarts?

Brent, where do I get "Ringers Lactate"? is this a restricted item or is it commonly available? thanks both Brant and Rick on this matter.

"fin stabilized sabo rounds", that's too much (Russ deserves a Guiness for that one)

Torsten, try www.westammo.com they may be able to get those 173s

Any thoughts on nite cammo?
 

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 01:05:06 (EDT) 

To all: Thanks for the information on spin drift. I cant help thinking that this occurence takes place at the trans sonic point and below. This is probably why the fall off of accuracy.

Thats all for now!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Sad and Dejected waiting for Spring Training in , Ohio USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 07:42:07 (EDT) 

To all: Thanks for the information on spin drift. I cant help thinking that this occurence takes place at the trans sonic point and below. This is probably why the fall off of accuracy.

Thats all for now!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Sad and Dejected waiting for Spring Training in , Ohio USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 07:42:25 (EDT) 

BTW did I tell you how I broke the bolt handle on said Mauser ! some other day.

"Ende"
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
germany - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 09:37:36 (EDT) 

Jeff A.
Glad the info helped out!! I know what its like to get those care pkgs. with all the answers to your questions, Rick B. sent me a nice one on the mil dots when I was trying to figure them out. You will really enjoy the 280 (Even though its a Winchester) its a great caliber and very accurate. (In a Remington anyway)HA.

Russ,
The Savage article is on its way!! I think you will really enjoy it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 10:04:11 (EDT) 

I'm going to look at one tonight.It's a .340 Weatherby Magnum with the Accubrake muzzle brake system and stainless steel fluted barrell.It is one year old with less than a box of rounds through it (so the owner claims).

Brand new the gun is going for around $1700 here in Canada.I beat the guy down on his asking price to $850 (roughly $550 American).I know the deal sounds too good to be true,that's what worries me.

Any comments or experiences with this rifle from any of you out
there ?

If the gun is what the owner claims,I'm going to buy it.

Thanks,
Jeff B.
 

Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 10:45:53 (EDT) 

That's all, Rod. Didn't have anything else to say, man.

Bain out.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 12:27:42 (EDT) 

Have scoped and sighted in several Weatherbys for my customers; but not an Accumark. Their muzzlebrakes really help tame the recoil; but the noise is horrible! Ear plugs and muffs are a definite requirement. Weatherby advertises a 1", 3-shot group out of a cold barrel on their regular hunting rifles. That they will do; but don't try any more than three! Once the barrel heats up it will spray rounds all over the target. Without the brake installed, Weatherbys kill on both ends as well as inflicting great pain on your wallet. At the price he's asking, you could always try it out and then sell it if you don't like it.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
Down in the Ozark boonies, MO USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 13:16:50 (EDT) 

Sensitivity means going for a head shot so your target doesn't have to go through life with a colostomy bag!!

They call me Mistah Gooch!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 13:26:14 (EDT) 

That's the evil man I recall.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anywhere, Anytime USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 14:05:32 (EDT) 

Thanks.
NhaTrang62
USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 16:41:25 (EDT) 

Pickett <PHarris168@aol.com>
TN USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 17:13:20 (EDT) 

Russ - I also liked the "fin stabilized sabot rounds".

Swede crawls back into his hide and targets a T-60 with his Savage.

Brent "Swede"
Brent <koldbore@htomail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 18:00:58 (EDT) 

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 21:12:30 (EDT) 

Dave: Log book: no biggie I just thought I was going to get more bang for the buck. You do write good articles though.

The rest of you: Tracking: Alright already, Ya killin me with all this e-mail.
here it is: the inner two front toes on coyotes are SMALLER than a dogs.
 

Sex indiactors: All members of the deer,cat and dog family are diagonal walkers which means they lift opposite body parts at the same time and put their rear print in the front print,but not exactly,
so for example a buck will place his rear feet in his front tracks
but the rear hooves will fall slightly to the inside of the front tracks,because his chest is is wider than his hips opposite for does.
Why? Because bucks have bigger chests to hold up antlers and does have bigger hips for birthing, this is true for most mammals. Thats why the floor of the track is so important to study.
 

Rick: You were right I'm getting writers cramp, but its little known info so I'm happy to share it.

Al is staying home tonight savoring the taste of the Yankees Victory and and his new honey!

Al.B
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
N.Y. USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 22:29:03 (EDT) 

To Steve: I loved White Star but Mason's Shadow Over Babylon is still my favorite. And of course... I enjoy the works of Stephen Hunter (he makes a few technical mistakes, but overall he's pretty good).

To Jeff: I looked closely at the .340 Weatherby Magnum as a candidate for my project rifle, but of course went with the larger cartridge. Still, I'm VERY big on this particular cartridge. And if you're smart enough to ignore the stigma that some shooters have about belted cases, there's a LOT of potential with the .340 Weatherby Magnum. If you buy it, I'd love to get an E-mail from you detailing how much contact you're getting with the locking lugs. That "multi-row, multi-lug" system is potentially confounding (God help you if you need to lap the lugs), but I haven't heard many Weatherby shooters complain so don't sweat it. And as has been said, if you don't like it, you stand a good chance of unloading it and recouping your cost.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 22:40:47 (EDT) 

Gooch - Taking a high left lung shot takes out the clavical, dives the bullet into the aortic arch and causes better flops than a beached fish. You are absolutely right on the Data Book vs Field Book. The two must not be confused and I would never take a data book into the field. Only excerts from my data book with required data for that mission in the form of tables. Then the decision is what zero will I carry the weapon set on. Close in terrain, point balnk zero, longer terrain then 500 or 600, depending on what I anticipate a snap shot may be required for a high value opportunity target.

On the IV solutions - It is nice to have them but remember that you must be able to hit a vein with the least trauma and cause the least trauma while in a field environment. This may mean moving him to a location for evac under less than Ideal circumstances. That would require the use of and angiocath or similar IV set up. Otherwise the needle will slice the vein up and the IV will infiltrate the site. All of this requires training and if you are going to carry, then you need the training. Laws from state to state may dictate whether you will be able to carry needles and IV set ups. Don't be a victum of an over zealous agent of the law.

Torsten - Don't feel bad, we have broken several REM bolt handles during the last 13 years! Not too uncommon with really jammed rounds and bolt handles. Especially when you are doing the "range" gunsmithy thingy bob. You know the leather hammer applied with ever increasing force and frustration.

Al O - Spin Drift occurs, to some extent, during the entire flight of the round. The problem occurs at a greater degree when the round goes trans sonic because the bullet is then over stabilized. This cuses the bullet to fall nose high and presenting a greater surface to the air resistance. You then have the same effect of a pencil rolling on a table. While the sonic shock wave protects the bullet from excessive spin drift early in flight, It is present. If you want a real demonstration of spin drift, check out the next black powder match. My .50 drifts 7 inches at 100 meters. Now that's fun with non-adjustable sights!

Well that's all folks. Hold hard and have fun. Feel that recoil (especially those of you shooting Weatherbys! :-))

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, October 14, 1998 at 23:33:38 (EDT) 

Nope, I didnt have a stuck case, and I didnt pound on it with a leather hammer. Better yet!
The Mauser 86 SR comes with a mufugly, brown, rubber, teardrop shape, blob of a bolt handle end cap. During my target shooter days I had a laminated wood target stock on the rifle and this bolt handle really looked weird, so I say´s: Hey I make a cool Aluminum Bolt handle end cap, make it a little longer so that I can manipulate the bolt easier. And since the 86SR has a nice Muzzle break I gave the bolt-handle-endcap a similar design. Worked great, looked even better, but was to heavy. With recoil and counterrecoil of the break tugging at the bolt handle it finally broke the weld that holds it in place in the bolt. This all happend during a state match, (great PR for Mauser) and I finished the Match by sticking the end of the bolt handle into the hole it left in the bolt and carefully cycling the action. I didnt have the balls to tell Mauser what I did so I stuck on the rubber and send it in for repair.

So remember: if it looks stupid, but works, dont screw with it. It was probably intended that way!

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
germany - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 03:17:33 (EDT) 

thanks for that input on the Magnus Effect - I'll look into it more closely. That ballistics program should be a good one to look at as well. Thanks.

Dave/Al B,
thanks for the tracking information - how about the two of you communicating and putting something together on tracking that we can put in the articles section? Or either one by himself as well. These are the sort of fieldcraft issues that are not discussed enough. We should have more things like this, rather than this mine-is-better-than-yours stuff.

Torsten.
don't sweat the pantzer comments. The truth's the truth. My dad chased, and got chased by, Rommel all over Northern Africa, then went on to Italy and beyond - and had the scars to prove it. He was at Tobruk and El Alamein, though he never really talked about it - something I really regret. He was sixteen when he went to war, and it left its mark on him.

Gooch,
of course merely adding 10%, or subtracting it, isn't 100% correct, but it does bring one in the vicinity. Your example: 453 meters becomes 453 plus 45.3 equals 498.3 yards. However, 498.3 minus 49.83 equals 448.47 - not quite the original answer, but close enough. Now if everybody would just stay with metrics.... But then, 11.8 grams doesn't sound so nice as 180grains does. Ah, what the heck!
Feelings? You? You're still EVIL man :-)

Scott ( not X-Ring ),
thanks for the STA 2/23 - we'll put those links where they belong.

Al B.
on your comments on the log book - thanks. If Russ or Mr. Bain doesn't beat me to it, I'll add it to the review as an extra link. ( Although, I have been having problems getting into the site from home the last few days - most probably too many Yanks on it then :-) )

BTW, I am busy with something that will keep me busy for quite a while. I am going through the Roster archives, and picking up usefull info and threads, which will then be posted under the Articles section. There is no ways I can pick up everything, just what catches my eyes. I just scan the archives - there's not enough time to read it in detail again.
So, some of you might get emails from me asking whether you want to expand on pieces, especially if they should stand totally alone, rather than be part of a thread. I will take the stuff out of the archives "as is" - no spelling, grammar etc. changes will be made. I don't have another 10 years to do it :-)
This little project will highlight some of the wisdom in the archives, and slightly compensate for the fact that we don't have a search engine for the Roster Archives ( also something I'll be looking into ).

Marius

Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 05:10:18 (EDT) 

Okay, bright boys, "POP QUIZ." For 1500-yard work, what size should the targets be for engagement? Group-size is meaningless if the target can't be identified. I'm using a Burris Signature mil-dot 8-32x scope, so magnification isn't a problem, especially on calm, clear mornings (one of the only advantages to working third shift is that you get the best shooting conditions in the morning after you get off work). Around here, it's pretty clear in the mornings and mirage won't be a problem, so I foresee actually getting to use the 32-power from time to time. Realistically, as it warms up (though not at THIS time of year), I'll have to use lower power settings. Regardless of all this -- do any of you guys have a PRACTICAL method for determining target size for load development work? Tentatively, I have a 10'x10' piece of quarter-inch steel that I thought I'd paint flat white and then apply some type of 'V' target... but I'm wide open for ideas. I expect the gun will shoot better than I can, but we'll never know unless I can get on target.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 08:12:21 (EDT) 

I have a small (about 5"x8")camouflaged, codura nylon, zippered, 3 ring binder that I use for note taking, carrying around reduced sized training schedules etc. that would work for you guys. It has a small fold out pouch with a pen holder. I added a dual powered Casio fx-300SA calculator which I JB Welded inside and sprayed it liberaly with Scotch Guard to make it water repellant. The Mildot master fits inside and it fits nicely in the BDU Cargo pocket and my Police style tactical trousers that I wear at the Boot Camp. Handy Dandy.

Write RAINE Inc, 6401 S. Madison Ave., PO Box 4230, Anderson, Indiana, 46013-0230. If you can't get it through them let me know our PX carries them.

Okay okay. Meters x 1.094 = yards. Yards/1.094 = meters. I've can feel the benchresters out there snarling! The 10% method is taught because you can do it in your head and the 6 yard difference at 1000 meters (1000m x 1.094 = 1094 yds, 1000m + 10% = 1100 yds) falls into the anal retentive zone. Jeeze.

Russ, You have a 10 FOOT x 10 FOOT piece of steel? You moving it with a crane?

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 11:04:34 (EDT) 

2) What does MRT stand for? Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but does MTU stand for Marksmanship Training Unit?

3) Anyone familiar with photography? What are the focal length equivalents to scope magnifications? Does a 300mm camera lens equal a 6x scope, and a 1000mm camera lens equal a 20x scope?
 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 11:45:50 (EDT) 

Cory says everyone can stay at his house.
Eric Metzger <emetzge@ibm.net>
Wherever, FL. USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 12:24:29 (EDT) 

Michael Justus
Michael Justus <djmj.fidnet.com>
Owensville, MO USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 12:56:24 (EDT) 

Marius: I'm *definitely* not qualified to write about tracking. I recommend classes (including POST certified ones) and there are some good books out there, like Mammal Tracking in North America. Al B. might be able to do something on the subject though.

Rick: I'm familiar with the male/female human track difference you mentioned. Maybe it's a social thing, but the few times I have practiced tracking it didn't work, the female steps were positioned just like the men's. Maybe it's a social thing, I don't know. Has it worked in your experience?

Thanks again to Gooch, Rick, and Scott for the yards/meters info.
 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 13:03:27 (EDT) 

One MRT is "mildew resistant treated" as in the M1907 MRT leather sling.

Cold bore shots. In my experience it depends on the gun. I have found that relitively new barrels show less effect than ones that are near being shot out. A good way to prevent this is to fire fouling shots out of a freshly cleaned bore.

The best way to predict the effects of a cold bore is just like a lot of other things. Shoot a lot and keep a good data book and analyze it for trends.

Gooch
 
 

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 13:05:34 (EDT) 

Focal length equivalents to scope magnification. Their are many veriables in this. The difference in the viewfinder can be as much as 103% to 93% and that would couse you to see less with the same lens on two different camera bodys. The best way to find out the field of view from your scope to your camera lens is. To find out what your field of view of your camera lens is at 100yrds and compair it to your scope field of view at a 100yrds. And knowing what % that your viewfinder will let you see. If you would like me to I can go home tonight and test it out with a 500mm F4 lens and tell you what power it is with a 100% viewfinder with a Nikon F4 camera body. I hope this helps some if not, email me and I can go on.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MICH USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 14:41:22 (EDT) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 19:07:12 (EDT) 

This board has been a great resource. I'm learning new stuff every day and it's great to see a message board where people treat each other with such immense respect and dignity.

peace,
Mike

Mike
Chicago, IL USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 19:50:33 (EDT) 

Russ -  On the 1500 meter target, mark an inner target of 15 inches in diameter. This your ideal, don't plan on hitting it much. Mark a secondary target around the inner circle at 30 inches. This one would be nice, but don't plan on it too much. Now mark off an area about 5 by 5 feet and that is your target. This you should be able to hit with regularity. Remember though, that 5 x 5 is only 4.13 moa big. Welcome to extreme range shooting! That 5 x 5 would be equivalent to shooting perfect 1000 yard scores every day! Even though the target is larger, you have the disadvantage of reading winds at a range that is ery difficult and requires great practice and patience. Be careful with the high power setting! Mirage can move that target a good 5 - 10 feet depending on wind and mirage conditions. You will need to recognize that movement with the wind correction! Have fun young man, for you are about to become old.

Gooch - Perfection perfection! Use the 10% rule! I hate math and I have to do it enough now. I have no idea how my daughter the cop graduated as a math major. Must of got it from her mother. At least she got my adventure spirit, much to the dismay of the mother!

Melick - Cold Bore shots are more pronounced with the gas guns than the bolt guns. On the bolt guns it becomes more pronounced with bore burn out as indicated by Gooch. As a matter of interest, it is a good indicator that your bore is becoming worn and you need a new barrel. This will show before thrown flyers. On gas guns you can reduce the cold bore change by manipulating the bolt rapidly and taking most of the spring set out of the weapon. However you will never "lock up" the bolt the same way the gas does it, so change is inevitable.

Roy - I'm not sure I know what you mean by the German Reticule. If you mean the old style post set up, stay away from it. It has too many limitations in this business. If you mean another type reticule, I'll need a discription of the reticule. I wasn't ignoring you, I was only hoping someone else would answer before I admitted my ignorance of the reticule you were meaning. Torsten, what is the German style reticule, inquiring minds wnat to know, at least this rusty mind does.

OK guys babbled enough for the night. Guess I'll get my rest before another day of fun filled range time with my brood of new students. Just love those first several days on the range when big bad Green Berets find out they can't shoot as well as they think they can.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 21:55:12 (EDT) 

To Michael: Canjar makes aftermarket Savage triggers, and so does some newer company that, I believe, Tom
"let me get this straight" Scott has the address for. Gee, ya know? I think I'm going to have you guys send me your discarded Savage triggers, so I can tune them down as light as the ones I now have, then I'll sell them at a fair price, say, about half of what the aftermarket guys are charging.

To Dave: Thanks for the nice words of comfort. Yes, I know what you mean, we never seem to learn from history.
And besides reducing the size of the military, we're sending our "special" units everywhere, all the time, with little or no "downtime," and it's burning out our troops. Retention sucks, morale sucks, and the funding for training facilities, equipment, and ammunition is instead paying for all these "blue helmet" missions around the globe. I knew this was coming, this RIF that hit me, ever since that night, years ago, when I watched them (on CNN) tearing down the Berlin Wall. Now, instead of worrying about Ivan, Karl, and Gustav coming through the Fulde Gap, we're worrying about OOTW, referred to in the Army as "ewww-twah" (Operations Other Than War), in all these places they send us but THEN give us totally f**ked rules of engagement. Anyway, who knows? Maybe I'll open "Guns ' r ' Russ" and make a fortune. I could even offer "toy buyback" programs.

To Mike: The Remington is a fine rifle and should suit you well. The nicety of a short action is less "flex" during
firing and (slightly) shorter recycle time. There are also some advantages in mounting scopes, too. As for the Choate stock, I don't recommend it unless you're a "big" guy and don't mind a six-pound stock adding weight to your scoped, barreled action. (Yes, it's six pounds, I just set mine on the bathroom scales.) For your scope question, you didn't say whether you wanted a mil-dot scope or not. If "not," your price limitation would best be served by a good Weaver or B&L offering (I really like the B&L 4000 Elite series, but you can't beat the Weaver MicroTrac system for repeatability, not at the price you mention). The type of shooting you do will dictate the type of scope you should look for, but if you want a mil-dot scope you'll be hard-pressed to find one in the range you want -- "new," anyway. You might find a good, used, Leupold mil-dot scope for that kind of money if you shop around. Leupolds have a lifetime warranty, so you can't go wrong, even if you get a "lemon" Leupold.

To Rick: Thanks for the great post! I saved it as a file to refer to later. Old? Sir, I am quite familiar with "old."
And hey... if I get bored with shooting at 1500 yards, I can always play around at "short" distances, say, around 1000 yards or so. Damn, Rick, you should SEE this rifle!!! God, now WHERE did I put my Guns of Navarone shooting clothes? Ah, here's my goggles, and....

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 22:32:59 (EDT) 

My experience is shooting a couple of 1000 yd. matches at Camp Perry per year. This is a semi-controlled
environment. My Wimbledon gun is a Hall actioned, Hart barreled (1:12 twist, fluted), .300 Win. Mag. chambered
(tight neck), McMillan prone stocked, Jewel 1.5 oz. triggered, Hammond's built prone rifle. A very solid HONEST
10-shot ½ moa rifle. Day in, day out. Notice that I specified 10-shot groups. Ten-shot groups are not lucky,
occasional groups, but repeatable ones.

My experience over the years is that (with this rifle) the first shot will be about 24 to 30 inches low at 1000 yds. The
next will come up about a 12 inches. The next will come up about 6 inches or so, etc. Obviously, I do not correct on
the first shot anymore, but wait until the barrel heats up (stabilizes). The cold barrel absorbs a lot of heat, and heat
equals pressure.

As an aside, another rifle my put its first shot high because of "compensation". It is well known that in some rifles
a lower velocity shot may actually shoot higher on target than a higher velocity shot. In short, this is due to barrel
vibrations, etc. I've read that in the M14 that this is so at 800 yards. This rifle has a sweet spot to where velocity
variations cancel themselves out and the target will show less "vertical" at this range compared to 700 yds. and
900 yds.. Just how much I don't know. I've read it, but don't want to look it up.

Just passing along info to be stuck WAY back in your mind. Pull it out when you need an excuse. I do.

That's all for now.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Thursday, October 15, 1998 at 22:45:56 (EDT)

Mike from Chicago: Remington VS good? All rifles have their good and bad points. What do you want to do with it? What do you plan to do with it in the near/medium/long terms? Check Scott's review on the rifle on the "In Review" section.

Short vs. Long action - I'd defer to Rick and Gooch, but if you aren't shooting a caliber that requires the long action, the short action is probably better.

Good glass for under $200 - Again, what do you want to do with this piece of equipment? If you are hunting and don't need clear glass for long range, a mil dot, or target knobs, there are plenty of fine scopes available. If you are talking about long range tactical style shooting, two C notes doesn't come close to getting you in the game. Maybe $350 to $375, probably in the $400 range, certainly with $500, but not $200. The Tasco Tactical or one of the Vari-X III LE or Tactical scopes might be more in line with what you want.

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 00:43:29 (EDT) 

That's it for the medical stuff for a while. Sarge and a few of us are going to put our heads soon for a separate medical segment as to not clutter the Duty Roster.

Brent "Swede"
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 01:40:22 (EDT) 

Does anybody have any experience with the new T-series?

I have 2 US-made scopes from '79 or '80, a T10 and a T16. I've used them extensively for targetshooting, .22LR M-Siluette. The repetability of the W&E-adjustments are unmatched even today. The optics seems to come from coke-bottles.

TorF
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 04:27:29 (EDT) 

The cadre at Ft Campbell SOTIC showed us a video tape they had made to illustrate what trace looked like. I assume that is what you have in mind. I don't know how they did it, at what range, weather conditions beyond hot and sunny,or with what equipment, but the trace was clear as day. So it can be done, but like all things, it might take a little experimentation for it to work.
Ed <eaengler@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 07:09:15 (EDT) 

I am a long time Remington shooter and don't own anything else in my good rifles as they have seved me well. The VS is a good choice and would give the stock on it a chance before considering spending money on another. That said if I must cut some money on a setup I would go with another good rifle (like the Savage) and put the money in glass. With scopes it is not just the optics, they are the most fragile part of the system and you get what you pay for in clarity, repeatability, and durability.

Dave in Ok
Dave Martin <theopair@aol.com>
Ok USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 10:30:49 (EDT) 

LM
Laszlo Markos <lmarkos@texas.net>
Round Rock, TX USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 12:09:22 (EDT) 

To All,
What the heck is a adductor magnus muscle?? And how does it effect your shooting?? Or is this part of the story to make it interesting??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 13:12:12 (EDT) 

I've just been given permission to finally release the information I've sat on for soooooo long.

The AR-50, ArmaLite's new .50 BMG single-shot rifle, will be making its way into dealers' hands in the upcoming months. As I type this, the press releases are going to press. I've known about this for some time, but I was sworn to secrecy. Guys, this rifle is going to be a hot item for those of you who like the big stuff. I've seen the drawings and some of the initial machine work. In appearance, it will be similar to the typical AR design... "sort of, but not quite." It IS cool, though... VERY cool!

It will start shipping in February '99. You can reserve one, now, with a $100 deposit.

Check ArmaLite's website in the days to come. As soon as I receive the press release in its entirety, I'll post it to their site.

For anyone else who cares, the AR-7 will be available in December (original markings, et cetera). Also, a limited run of AR-10B rifles (the cocking handle is inside the carrying handle) is underway.

God, I'm glad to get this off my chest (about the AR-50). I've been dying to tell you guys for months! And when you write to them, remember to tell them you heard about it at Sniper Country!

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 13:21:47 (EDT)

I had a Post type reticle (The old weaver post) and used it for years and your right it's very quick and great for low light and hunting but not as a tactical scope. The post covers up to much of a smaller target. after the duplex came out I went to that and never looked back or missed it. The duplex will do everything the post offers and more. I have shot when its been dark enough that you couldn't see the fine part of the cross hair and used the heavy part of the duplex as you would the post. I would stay away from it unless you want to go to it for a special reason. Once again just my opinion.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 15:43:47 (EDT) 

Laszlo,
I think you should stay away from the shorter barrel. You'll get a lot more muzzle blast, and a couple hundred fps less muzzle velocity. Out there where it matters that's not good. If you want it for hunting only, and the increased muzzle blast doesn't bother you, it will be fine. At normal hunting distances you won't miss that extra fps in any case.
As far as the trigger goes, there is an article on this site regarding the Savage trigger, and how to smooth that up a bit.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 17:18:53 (EDT) 

See ya,
Danny B.

Dan B. <gdbas>
USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 21:10:41 (EDT) 

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 21:39:34 (EDT) 

To Roy: German picket post: My WW2 German scope has an elevation knob which is adjustable from 200 to 800 meters and the elevation should be set so that the bullet strikes just above the point of the post at the range that you are shooting. As long as this is done there is no problem. If the bullet impact falls below the top of the post you are in deep doo-doo.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 21:47:26 (EDT) 

Steve,
I read your article to Torf. If you do not mind…, let me butt in. In my limited experience (one KT-15), I haven't experienced any unusual noises or vibrations. Perhaps I have a freak scope.

There are several series of Weaver's. There is the old T-series, the KT-15s, and the newer T-series target scopes. I own a T-16 (old), T-20 (old) and KT-15 (recent). I do agree that the old Microtrak™ clicks are not in the same league as the KT-15. They are much better.

The following is a post I made to the AR-15 list some time ago. Someone had a question about Weaver KT scopes and I put forth what was my opinion at the time and for the intended audience.

I'm quoting the piece verbatim. Take it for what it is worth.

"I can recommend it highly. The adjustable objective goes from 10 yds to infinity and is boldly marked. To adjust from 50 yds. to infinity only uses about 1/3 turn, so if you put the Butler scope covers on (recommended) they always stay in a usable position. The tube and turret are one piece which should make for a straighter setup. When I've put Leupolds on V-blocks I found out they are not straight (long story1). The 1/4 minute clicks are very usable, nice and crisp with a little audible click sound for confirmation. When Weaver says 1/4 minute clicks, they mean just that, not more....... not less (long story 2). The arrangement of tube lengths and turret position allow you to put it into the Armalite scope base and still have enough eye relief on a flat top receiver. The crosshairs are of the Duplex persuasion and are not too fine for varmint work, nor too coarse to do target work. At 200 yds the crosshairs will cover up a 3/4" paster, which is what I use for zeroing purposes. I just use the old benchrest trick of putting the paster in one of the 90 degree intersections leaving a slight amount of white showing. The price of the scope is certainly reasonable,........ I could use another one myself. The ocular eyepiece has rubber on the end so that if it bumps your glasses it won't chip or scratch them. The optics are pretty good, maybe not quite as flat a field as Leupolds but more than usable. At Camp Perry we use 15X to 24X scopes at 1000 yds. so the power is adequate for varminting or any other use.

I don't see how you could be disappointed in this scope, as it has all the good features rolled up into one."

My last post to this forum was spread out as though I was hitting the "return" key. Somehow hard return codes were transmitted. Mystery to me. I always compose in Word, cut and paste into Sniper Country. It has worked for a year. Hope this one goes better.

Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 23:21:10 (EDT) 

"Corporal Bowe" D.M. Team Leader, 5th Plt. F.A.S.T. Co. U.S.M.C. Security Force Battalion LANT
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
N.Y. USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 23:35:49 (EDT) 

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 23:42:06 (EDT) 

"Corporal Bowe" D.M. Team Leader 5th Plt. F.A.S.T. Co. M.C.S.F. Bn. LANT

Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
N,Y. USA - Friday, October 16, 1998 at 23:46:50 (EDT) 

20" barrels: Now I know you guys like your long barrels for sniping, but I've got three (non-sniper) rifles in .308 which have barrels between 18.5 and 20" long. I never, ever have had a problem with muzzle blast with these, maybe it's just me as I also read about it in the gun rags all the time. Maybe there is more blast, but it isn't enough to bother me or anyone else I know who owns a .308 with a similar barrel length.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Saturday, October 17, 1998 at 01:58:40 (EDT) 

For law enforcement officers especially, this training program offers many benefits over current, traditional methods of training. All comments by the police snipers were positive. Other nationally recognized sniping authorities have also given this program rave reviews and, after today, I can see why. Also, one of the officers on hand today commented on how affordable he felt the series is; he expected it to cost much more that it is being listed for.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, October 17, 1998 at 20:47:09 (EDT) 

I've not read "White Star". What's the story line. I'll see if Barnes and Noble has it. If it's about shooting then I'll read it and eat it. "Time to Hunt" was top drawer.

Mike M.:

I'm not really sure if this is a duplicate load for 175 Fed. Match, but try 43.0 gr VV N140 in the LC cases. Out of a 26 in. barrell it tracks w/ the M118 Bdc cap on my M3 scope from 100 to 600 yd. very closely. I mean it is on at 1,2, and 300, but hits a little high further out.

Pat:

Just read your latest email. What ended up being the workable elev. dope at the shoot was 15 MOA up from 100yd for 600. Then 10 more for 25 MOA at 600. I was going to add 15 MOA to that for 37 at 1000 yd, but my spotter said go to 38 for 1000yd. I ended up about 10-12 in high across the board. Should have used 37. Mirage was getting bad ( 11 am, very sunny w/ wind) and I couldn't see where I was hitting. The rifle shot well. I just need to practice more.

But, oh God, what an experience!!! I got there too late on Fri. to get "zeros" at the ranges. So I shot on a guestimate during the actual match. Talked w/ several guys about what elev. was needed and tried 15 MOA on 1st 600 yd shot and ,"bam" center chest. Instant body hard for yours truly.

The 1000yd target was six pieces for 4 ft by 8 ft sheet steel for a single piece that was 24 feet wide and 8 ft high. All this was bolted onto 5 telephone poles and was mounted 10-12 ft off the ground. There was a flight of stairs built on one side to walk up to a 3 foot walkway along the steel for scoring and repainting after ea. relay. Targets at 600 and 800 were 1/2 steel sillouettes mounted on 55 gal drums. All targets had 1 MOA black "dots" painted on.

The shoot was a joint sponsor by Autauga Arms, Ft. Benning Rifle and Pistol Club, and The Cotton Gun Club. It was held on the 1700 acre farm of one MR. Bill Huskey. He also has a hunting cabin w/ 12 bunk beds, and I was allowed to sleep over at the cabin Fri. night. I had great fellowship with the people there. We had a great supper and the shoot was a big time educational experience for a newbie like me who has never seen,much less, shot at something 1000yds away. It was just beautiful. Gratification personified. I did not want to leave...God bless tactical shooting. It's lower spinal cord primal spirituality with a double turbocharger.

Enough outta me...
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 00:21:22 (EDT) 

SPR opened in Norway last week. I had very high expecttations. The opening scene is very good. Then the movie take a u-turn storyvise. Instead of being the best docudrama ever made it becomes an average story with very good special effects. The magic of the opening scene is lost. It's a pity American movies must have a "love/moral" plot to become a box-office success. The "moral"-plot in SPR in that context looked very similar to the "love"-plot in "Titanic". Personally this removes SPR from the ultimate docudrama-list and puts it in the "Iron Cross"-class. As I've said the opening scene is awesome but as a complete movie SPR is beaten hands down by "Winter War". "Das Boot" directors cut (DVD AC-3, german language) is still rules as best docudrama.

Comments about the movie:

Opening scene:

German MG-positions look like German propaganda-shots (we're ready, 1943), not fighting-positions. Unrealistic MG42 soundtrack and bad handling. (compare with "Iron cross") I've got a lot of personal experience with MG42's.

Clocktowerscenes:

Very unrealistic. Germans abandoned such positions just after the enemy was spotted. Common practice on both sides , at least on the eastern front, was to blast clocktowers and obvious OP's with AT or tankguns. A Norwegian SS-officer told me the russians used "rutchbangs"(after the sound they made) for this. The SPR sniper vs. sniper-scene is a combination of "Kellys Heroes" and Carlos Hathcocks famous 'Nam sniperkill.

Streetfighting:

Flak-guns never used for streetfighting as shown in SPR. Would you throw away a Flak-gun with crew in France in '44 with 10000 enemy planes in the air? Were are the MG34/42's?

Missing in SPR:

Arty.barrage, see "Winter War".

Trenchwarfare, see "Winter War" and "Iron Cross"

Large Infantery assault, see "Winter War"
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 08:00:42 (EDT) 

Das Boot was awsome.

Rick - Range me.

Gooch
gooch <der meister shutzen@imadick.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 14:13:59 (EDT) 

While the German version (English subtitles) of Das Boot remains one of my favorite movies, I would not say it's a "docu-drama." A good war story, sure, but not a docu-drama.

I agree, TorF, the opening scenes in SPR were very good. I also agree with you about the Kelly's Heroes clocktower scene and, as I first posted months ago, the "rip off" of the historic "Hathcock shot" between the two snipers in the movie. However, I don't feel the movie was anything but a stunning piece of work. Sure, there were technical errors (God, let's NOT go into those again), but overall it was a solid, anti-war "let's not do this again" message with some fine acting and good action.

I'd be interested, offline of course, to hear any other comments from Europeans who've seen this movie.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 17:39:56 (EDT) 

I went with a German friend of mine who spoke French. Though the locals in this Liechtenstein town were very hesitant to talk about the war with a German present, a few did open up. Besides constantly referring to the Nazis as "die Preussen", or "the Prussians", the locals stated that the Germans had made extensive use of the town's church steeple to snipe at Americans. Time has faded and I don't recall the specifics of the battle (nor was I at all interested in long range shooting at the time), but I must disagree that the Germans always exited from such advantageous firing positions.

Upon thinking some more, I recall now how much both my friend and the local Liechtensteiners truly hated the German snipers for having made use of the church tower. I felt strong dislike at the time for what seemed both immoral and unlawful. These feelings were before law school and my interest in sniping. I must think about this some more.

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 18:28:06 (EDT) 

E8B this is E7G - Immediate suppression AB1001, OUT!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 21:32:26 (EDT) 

All advice welcome...
Ferguson <ref@wf.net>
WF, TX USA - Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 23:00:15 (EDT) 

One of the problems of being educated in the art of warfare is that one see´s more mistakes than the average citizen. I´m just afraid that this is just the same when it comes to things that I am not well educated in.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, October 19, 1998 at 03:10:21 (EDT) 

Steve,
Your 168s will work great at 1000yds if you launch them fast enough. I shoot mine at 2800fps using 45.5gr of Varget in LC cases, if you use civilian cases go to 46grs. I have a Schneider 24" barrel on my gun but before I had it rebarreled it shot the same load at 2775fps. If you have the new 26" barrel you should be in the 2800fps range.

Shawn Mc,
Got you e.mail sounds like you computer is giving you a real nightmare.Glad to hear that the reloading is goig OK. Go with the deep crown it protects the crown that much better esp when you drag it behind your bike(HA).

Scott,
Would you do me a favor and let me know what the average weight of your Federal match cases are. I just got some once fired cases from a Trooper friend of mine and they are some of the most consistant cases for weight that I've ever checked all 200 were with in one grain of each other!! I found this really unususal for Federal cases and was wondering how the new match cases compare??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, October 19, 1998 at 10:49:36 (EDT) 

Win. M70 trigger adjustment; specifically, how do you get the creep out? There appears to be no way to adjust sear engagement.

"Speedlock" firing pins and springs; these are the titanium/aluminum jobs designed by G. David Tubb of highpower shooting fame and sold by Brownell's. Does anyone have any experience with these?
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Monday, October 19, 1998 at 13:25:22 (EDT) 

Just received the November Tactical Shooter, 3 gun school articles in one magazine? Dave Brennan must see something that I don't.  I'm glad to see that he ran two articles on ASA!

Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Tuesday, October 20, 1998 at 00:57:46 (EDT) 

Hodge: You da man! Who's the goofy guy with Jarrett shooting that Glock! Real men shoot .45s!

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, October 20, 1998 at 02:19:26 (EDT) 

I´m of to play chase the sniper until Sunday.
I´ll run a belt through our MG 3 on the "Erdziellafette" for you guy´s.
I get to snipe at 600 Meters with 1100 Rounds per minute. I´ll see if I can get her to smoke and tick like the MG 42 in SPR.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, October 20, 1998 at 12:39:26 (EDT) 

Pat: That brass? It all falls within a grain or so. Sometimes less. Happy? I am!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 20, 1998 at 12:58:48 (EDT) 

"In Normandy we heard and read much about snipers in church steeples, and one evening I was solemnly told by three men cowering in a ditch that a sniper was firing at them from a church spire which could be seen in the distance towering above some high trees. I am told that the Hun's native ingenuity once gave rise to a "sniper in a church steeple" true story: to a long length of chemically treated rope suspended inside a church spire the Germans tied a number of "crackers" at irregular intervals, and then set a light to to the rope which acted as a slow burning fuse. The effect of the crackers going off at irregular intervals suggested sporadic rifle fire."
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, October 20, 1998 at 22:43:54 (EDT) 

Wandering back to the reloading room trying to find that perfect .308 load for the new rifle for the tactical shoot this weekend.
Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Tuesday, October 20, 1998 at 23:13:20 (EDT) 

When is the Condor going to update the "wax the bad guy" scenario?

If I were to buy a 6.5x55 swede bolt gun, how do I read the marker disk inletted to the stock? I've known 3 people who had them, two were sub moa guns with the right reloads and the other was a 2 moa gun at best. These are excellent rifles. Any input would be appreciated.

Don Williams
Don Williams <williams@fascination.com>
WY USA - Tuesday, October 20, 1998 at 23:57:56 (EDT) 

In general, I'm looking for a very accurate rifle that I can hunt with as well as practice long-range marksmanship. I've budgeted something in the range of $1,000 to $1,500 dollars, but have no qualms about spending less (or a bit more, if justified). I've been leaning towards bolt-actions since I can fire-form the brass for more accuracy, but I also like being able to follow up quickly, so the jury is still out. The calibers I've been looking at are 300 Win Mag, 7mm Remington Magnum, and good old 7.62 NATO (if I go semiauto). I don't know from optics. I assume Leupold is good since Jane's lists several national sniper weapons as carrying the scopes (and usually chambered in 300 Win Mag, if not 7.62).

What I'd like to know is where I could get educated advice on these matters, and (time permitting) some pointers on some of the general issues such as action, caliber, scope factors and rifle construction someone should look at before buying a rifle for sniper use.

Thanks!
Brian Bascom <brianb@anet-dfw.com>
Texas USA - Wednesday, October 21, 1998 at 00:38:13 (EDT) 

7mm is also a good, flat cartridge, but I wouldn't recommend it, at least for someone starting out. There is far more gear and data available for the .308 shooter than there is for the 7mm shooter. Yes, you can find it or calculate it (as the case may be), but it's going to be harder. Spend your time shooting and learning the rifle.

I will recommend that you buy very good glass and a durable mount and rings combo. Tasco's Tactical scopes and Leupold's Vari-X III lines are good and these scopes go for $400 to $550 (rough guess). B&L has dropped the price of their tactical to $750, roughly, and that's a great scope. I will admit to a preference for a scope with a 30mm tube, and the best-priced scope so equipped is probably the Tasco.

That's enough for now on this subject.

Mike M.: Armalite's rifles and barrels are very good. I believe that Armalite switched to another rifle manufacturer because of supply issues, the quality of the barrel remains the same.

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, October 21, 1998 at 01:42:24 (EDT) 

Thanks for any help you can give me in this matter.
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 21, 1998 at 17:36:05 (EDT) 

Brian: I'll dive right in on this as your budget is realistic and allows you some nice options. First on optics. If you want a great tactical scope that can double as a hunting scope, there is but one choice. The Vari-X III 3.5-10x Long Range M3. Why? This scope can be had for $675 with mil-dots ($520 without) and it is an ideal size for both a tactical rifle and a hunting rig. At 19.5 ounces it is not burdensome and the variable option will make it ideal for hunting. It comes with elevation turrets for the .223, .308, 30-06 and the .300 Win mag. It also has click marks for MOA so you can tailer the turret for your load.

I'd go with a redfield scope mount to stay with in your budget as these can be had, rings and bases, for about $35. The Leupold dual Dove tail system is very nice too.

If you want more strength by all means move right up to the Leupold Mk4 mount system or look into some of the higher end ring/base systems from Badger Ordanance. These will cost you anywhere from $185 for a complete Mk4 system to $250 for the specialty systems.

As far as a rifle? Depends on what you really want to do. If hunting is the primary goal but you still want to retain a moderate weight, the Rem 700 VS is a fair choice as the H.S. Precision stock is not of a super heavy contour. This rifle will perform right with the 700P and is usually priced around $450 to $500. If you end up only using the rig as a deer rifle there is little need for the heavy barrel on the VS and you could settle on any number of traditional hunting rifles like the 700 ADL or Winshester line.

Caliber choice? Again, for hunting it doesn't really matter. They all are effective on deer and most American game. If for some reason you do not want a .308 I'd research the 7mm-08, or one of the other medium 7mm calibers. Magnums are not ideal for new shooters and are not all that efficient in terms of cost and practice. Nobody likes to practice all day with a .300 WM! For hunting you'd be better served with a moderately recoiling cartridge that will allow you to shoot consistently and accurately. The .308 is a good all around choice but you may want to move up to some of the .280s in terms of power. These will shoot well with out an undue beating to the shooter. Heck, the 30-06 ain't a bad choice by any means! Me? I'd go with the .308 as there is so much data for it, it performs well on most American game, it is inherently accurate and is a good tactical round. But jsut to confuse you the 7mm's are also very desirable as they have high BC's and are very efficient burners. Of course, if you move up to a long action you'll have to purchase a Sendaro or equivelent form another manufacturer. The idea here is to buy a rifle that will need little modification out of the box. Avoid wood stocks unless you just love the look. If you have to have one, get a laminate.

Wow. I think I just beat Rick B. at long answers! Good luck!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 21, 1998 at 18:07:14 (EDT) 

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, October 21, 1998 at 18:40:49 (EDT) 

Brian - Ignore Mr. Bain, he may look young but he has an old appetite that matches Gramps and they both like those M21s. No, seriously, if you are going to do just paper shooting, the M21 would work well, but that would bust your budget! Those suckers run for more than 1500 on a good day. The AR 10 is another good choice for semi, but why go there. The rapid follow on shot with a semi has a tendency to miss the same amount as the first shot, while a bolt forces you to re-aquire the target. You may be slower, however you can operate a bolt as fast as you like while you must wait for the gas to operate a semi :-), but the tendency to shoot too fast is not there. I would put my money into the .308 bolt gun as mentioned by Scott. This gives you a lower inital outlay, with the ability to add on as your money becomes available. Also, since you will have gun time with the rifle you will know what you want. I would stay away from long action rounds, 7mm and .300 Mag, unless you are going to become a world class long range shooter right off the bat. The barrels burn out between 500 and 1500 rounds. This means that you would be changeing, and buying, barrels whenyou could be buying some neat new scope, trigger, stock, or whatever. On the scope I would opt for the new M3 LR by leupold or the B&L Tactical. I do not have any experience with the Tasco, but they do have good glass and if that other guy Mr. Bain recommends it, then it must be good. Honestly, you need to decide how many rounds you are going to shoot a year, what type of shooting, the range of most of your shots, and how recoil sensitive you are, before you can really decide what you want. This is a case where bigger is not necessarily better! Good Luck with your choices and have fun shooting!

Think I'll stop now before Scott decides to beat me again! ;-)

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, October 21, 1998 at 21:43:43 (EDT) 

Get a Rem 700 if only for the addons and accessories are more attainable. A Vs is basically the same as a PSS. The rifle is reviewed on this site under product reviews (I think).As far as caliber. Stick to the common calibers .223,.308 or 7.62,30-06 for cheap military ammo to burn up at the range. For about $500-$550 your getting a good action,heavy barrel,great stock.

For short range shooting 0-300 yards a .223 might be something to look at. Espeacialy if your target is paper or no bigger than a coyote.

Don't get me wrong here, but a lot of people want to run before learning to walk. Having a rifle capable of shooting 1000 yards and accually doing it are to separate things. My advise to the newcommer is to start small (closer) then work your way out.
click here <billmohr@borg.com>
Somewhere, ny USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 01:03:36 (EDT) 

Respectively,
Pfc J.Obano USA
Josh Obano USA <ROTCLIONS@HOTMAIL.COM>
Apache Jct., Az USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 01:56:34 (EDT) 

Would it be possible to establish a photogallery in "Sniper Country"?

I'd like to see some of the private rifles and equipment discussed in "Duty roster".
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 07:03:41 (EDT) 

If you really are not going to be shooting much at those kind of ranges, some of the other medium caliber choices are equally good and may even exceed the ability ot the .308 win. In fact that .260 mentioned above is a good one. So to are some of the 6.5mm's and a plethora of 7mm's. Choices, Choices.... ;-)
Scott <xrnig@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 08:56:29 (EDT) 

Roy out
Roy <thomason@cos.saic.com>
I like gas guns too, CO USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 11:24:29 (EDT) 

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 12:23:12 (EDT) 

I really like your idea.I mentioned a similar type of thing in a Roster posting early last Spring but I guess nobody gave it much thought.
Like you,I would enjoy seeing some of the rigs that visitors of this site shoot.We often talk about the guns we own and it would be nice to actually see them.

Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 12:56:30 (EDT) 

Bain the Armscorp reciver took the brookfield mount with no exter fitting on the gun I showed you at SMTC.

LeMay ouy
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 14:19:02 (EDT) 

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 14:22:14 (EDT) 

I'll probably get the BPT scope mount. But how does it compare to the McCann scope mount? With the McMillan M1A stock, will I need a cheek piece for the BPT mount?

Finally, I'll top it off with a Leupold Vari-X III M3LR scope. Which rings should I get, Leupold MKIV rings, or some other kind?

Thanks for your comments.

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 17:00:00 (EDT) 

Lemay,
I'll have to check about the rear lug. I've heard they break off after awhile.

Barry,
Thanks for the email. Sorry, that's not him. I know a good bolt gun will do better but those gas guns sure are fun aren't they. I will probably shoot DCM so 600 yds should be okay. Oh yeah, I also have a 110FP in .308.

Roy out
Roy <thomason@cos.saic.com>
Y2K HELL!!, CO USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 18:17:33 (EDT) 

Steve
Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic>
Greensburg, Pa USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 18:31:30 (EDT) 

Lately I have heard some talk about "obverse rotational dynamic fluting." This is supposed to be fluting which runs contrary to the rifling of the lands and grooves in the actual barrel. It is supposed to have an anti-stressing reaction to cut rifling. So, in essence, what you have is a rifle with fluting which goes around the barrel in the opposite direction of the actual rifling. I told these people they were full of crap and went on my merry way. It sounds like a 1/2 baked theory. Anyone else hear about this?

Steve: As far as stocks go for around $300.00, check out the UARS stocks. ON the internett go to their homepage at UARS.com. They are about $380.00 but They have a lot of good reports behind them.

ALB (Uncle Nunzio's Nephew): Well the Yanks are the best. San Diego could even make a series out of it. At least we Indians had them worried at least for a little while. There is always next year and that will be the year of the Indians.

Russ: Coming back home to Ohio, I saw Silvis, Ill on Ol' Man River, and I thought about you and was going to call you to have a beer or two, but I was running late and had to get home that even. I'll put those beers (or Ice teas) off for another day. I'm thinking about you and hope you get things resolved with your employer.

Later everyone!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Back Home again in my Sweeties' Arms in Lustful, Ohio USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 21:53:04 (EDT) 

I have one (6.5 to 20 30mm tube 50mm obj) on my tactical rifle (700 PSS .223) and for what I do (Police Work) I like it.

Many folks find it too much scope at close ranges but because I tend to work alone, it substitutes nicely for my spotting scope in those situations when I don't have a spotter. Because I believe the primary responsability of a police marksman is observation and inteligence gathering it helps in those areas too.
 
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Anticipating Deer Season in, Magnificent West Virginia USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 23:20:29 (EDT) 

Upon re-reading my last post, I realize that it could be misinterpreted. Therefore let me state for the record: I use a spotting scope or binocular for observation unless the situation dictates that the rifle might be needed, then and only then would I even consider using the rifle scope to observe with.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Turning in for the night in, Restful West Virginia USA - Thursday, October 22, 1998 at 23:37:23 (EDT) 

I just returned from a tour in Bosnia, and know my way around an M-16 as well as a number of the 7.62mm rifles of our little NATO buddies. I have a Dillon reloader and a PACT chrono, and use them both for my pistols. The hunting applications of the rifle I want will mainly be deer; however, I want it to handle elk and maybe moose (meese?). My budget of $1,000-1,500 includes the rifle, optics, and any coatings or treatments (anyone?), but spotting scopes, cleaning gear, drag bags and the like don't have to fit in that budget window - my wife isn't as diligent about checking the workshop for unfamiliar extras as she is about checking the safe for new guns...

Again, thanks.
Brian Bascom <brianb@anet-dfw.com>
Texas USA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 01:20:53 (EDT) 

I am putting a UARS stock together as a demonstrator for police departments to play with. I give you the feedback as I get it.

Now, I may be wrong about this Choate, maybe I need more convincing about its merits.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
South of Canada, but North of Mexico in the Grand Republic of , Ohio USA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 08:33:17 (EDT) 

about the photogallery. I've played around a bit with the CGI scripting ( that runs this Duty Roster and the Emporium and Events Boards ), but I could not actually get it to post. This will allow for minimum work on our side, apart obviously from sickos posting rubbish there that will need to be removed. I still need to work on it a bit more. Anybody with ideas or solutions is welcome to contact me. The other option is to have such a gallery, but let you email the Sniper Country staff the photos so we can post them. But then I'll give you another address to mail me with - not this home address, takes to long too offload big files. Obviously this will mean more work, but we'll not have the problem of anybody putting unwanted rubbish on the site, as well catch it before it goes.

In any case, I'm open for ideas.

Marius

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 09:18:45 (EDT) 

I've not been to the roster pretty much all week. Been training for a new career. Gone from pharmacy to computers. Real change of gears; real leap of faith. Anyway, I'm on my lunch break and am beaming to the roster via my training class PC. This corporate supplied PC is a screamin' hot rod too.

Anyway, it's been a reeeeeeal full week. No time to shoot. No time to fondle my rifle. Needless to say I feel spiritually bankrupt as a result. Gotta get home tonite and resize some brass or throw some powder charges to get back in balance. I mean it's been sooo busy that the Barbara the Nailer doll has slowly deflated and the battery that runs her body temp thermostat needs replacing. Yeah, all of the morning glories and azaleas around my roadside sniper hide and lemonade stand need watering.

And, I've missed the hell out of the SC Roster. So, there you have it!

Brian:

I read several of the responses re: you question about a rifle/scope/ring system for 1500ish dollars. All have given good, solid answers for your digesting pleasure. Now, you get the fun part of banging your head trying to decide... ain't it great!!

Well, outta time. Back to training. Damn, it's good to:

1. Stop and smell the roses.

2. Help an old lady across the street.

3. Post on the SC Roster...

Will work for coffee and bullets.....

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 12:35:09 (EDT) 

Jeff A,
Welcome back, thought maybe you had run off with "Barbra"!! Whats this changing occupations, doesn't being a drug dealer pay good enough??(HA) I finally got my scopes back from Premier. I had the mil dots put in them, they did a super job and a quick turn around too.
I went out and sighted the 308 in again so now I'am ready to start learning how to mil targets to figure out the range. I played around with it a little last week end and it's going to take some work. Bruce's Mil Dot Master sure works slick!! You need to get one if you dont have one and your using the mil dots. Well I had better get back to court good luck in the new job!!

Bain,
Care Pkg. on the way, sorry it took so long I've been kind of jammed up at home.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 13:15:30 (EDT) 

on your M1A, and Fulton Armory. Go on rec.guns, and look for Walt, "The Ordinary Guy". It seems like he's the guru on the Garands. Anyone wants to know something, they ask him. Dates of manufacture, conditions, assistence, anything. He's the man to contact.

Jeff A.
into computers hey? Finally getting as decent job, are you? What'd you be doing? Software/hardware/support/development/all?

Pat (Mr. Bullet)
another damn lawyer in our midst? Or just an expert witness? ( I.e. someway paid way too much to tell them what they want to hear :-) - somebody like James R. Jarret for example.:-):-) )

Marius ducking to take his children to bed in fear of incoming... Incoming what? All the way down here to South Africa? NAH, I'm safe!

Off to bed before I cause too much stir now :-)

Marius

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 14:39:38 (EDT) 

Thank you for your clarification. Would you or anybody mind to provide assessments on Redfiled scope products, and specifically the LE-12 model. Does this designation mean the scope is more suitable for Law Enforcement application ?

Best regards.
NhaTrang62
USA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 19:46:39 (EDT) 

Keith Camardo <BATCAM1@AOL.COM>
BEAV., OR USA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 21:46:20 (EDT) 

Choate Stocks: There are a number of good design features on this stock that are frequently overlooked. My opinion is that it would be a very good stock for a poor mans version of a 50 cal sniper rifle.
In cal. 340 weatherby or so, the weight could be put to good use to help absorb recoil, the whole thing was designed for use with bipod.
the slanted forend is a nice feature for coarse elevation adjustments with a bipod and the butstock is well designed for the off-hand support for bipod prone shooting, the stock was cast around the aluminum bedding block, nothing is going to come loose there. Bottom line is that if you want a special purpose weapon that is going to be deployed in a defensive role or one that is always going to be transported by vehicle, it is not a bad way to go. Lots of guys love their 50 cal McMillan's and you dont see many of them humping their way thru the woods either.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, October 23, 1998 at 21:47:10 (EDT) 

A couple of things come to my mind. First off, barrel harmonics will be affected. That said, they may be beneficial or harmful to accuracy in your case. You are adding some weight to the barrel and so vibrations "should" be slower. But then again it may add a sub-harmonic to the equation. Who knows.

I would be concerned about the barrel heating up with the scope clamped down tight. This certainly will do no good as stresses will build up, and this could cause unusual results in point-of-impact after a several shots are fired. Now exceptions can always be found. Take for instance the long Redfield 3200 scopes that were solid barrel mounted on smallbore rifles for many years. Of course the barrels didn't warm up too much. Champion shooters used them this way with fine effect. I sold my 20X 3200 a few years ago. If mounted on the action there was a terrific amount of overhang. I'm talking a foot and a half or so. Too much for my comfort. If solidly mounted on the barrel it prevented the barrel from freely doing its thing. So I reluctantly gave it up and bought a Weaver T-20. More trade offs. The Redfield had a very flat field, crisp and clear. But a very small field of view relatively speaking. Three and a half feet at 100 yds. Now the Weaver T-20. Very good clicks, but as someone else said "Coke bottle optics". A benchrester I know once won a Weaver T-30 or 36. Not sure. This scope was virtually unusable. Extremely dark for one thing and not even good for paper punching on a sunny day.

Many Camp Perry long range target shooters mount the long Unertl scopes partially on the barrel with no handicap. Of course these are the suspension type mounts and stresses can not build up in this system as the scope tube actually "floats" within the mounts. Spring tension pushes the scope tube into a type of V-block situation. Hard to describe in print. All things considered, a very good system, (in my lowly opinion). Any system (floating or solid mount) has its advantages and disadvantages. What you gain on one end, you lose on the other. Just like with scope optical qualities; magnification, eye relief, light gathering, etc. When you gain in one spot you lose somewhere else.

This is more than you wanted to know. Sometimes I get a little carried away; ……..sometimes a lot!

That's all for now.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, October 24, 1998 at 05:42:23 (EDT) 

Yours Truly

Simba

Aaron Symonds <mjbls@powerup.com>
Brisbane, QLD Australia - Saturday, October 24, 1998 at 06:31:05 (EDT) 

Heres some information on the Tubb Speedlock. The my experience with a Rem 700 police DM and the factory literature gives the following information: OEM remington short action 700 firing pin weight 615.5 grains vs. 286.4 for the Tubb unit. Reduction in locktime is from 2.6 milliseconds to 1.6 milliseconds. (I'm unable to work my stopwatch quick enough to verify this unfortunately), Striker energy with OEM unit 81.6 inch/ounces with Tubb at 96 inch/ounces.
Installation is easy, but get a mainspring compressor and go slowly. The one auditory sensation I immediately noticed was the resonance through the stock while dryfiring (OEM H-S Precision tactical) was almost completely neutralized and forward surge sensation pretty well negated giving the rifle a "dead" feel during firing.
I haven't got enough rounds through my rifle to substantiate a reduction in group size but it seems to help so far.
peteT <pngreiff@aol.com>
big city, bygawd USA - Saturday, October 24, 1998 at 09:56:18 (EDT) 

Rich - I discourage greatly the mounting of the scope onto the barrel. You will get a harmonic change that problably would not be repeatable within the system due to the difference in the metal. Remember, you have a scope, rings, and base that must vibrate as well. The barrel will not match that vibration and accuracy will be degraded. Yes, scopes have been mounted on barrels but they were low power small scopes for african big game at ranges shorter than you will normally shoot and at targets much bigger than you will shoot. The damage to a normal scope, not designed to be mounted on the barrel would also be a problem in the near to long term, depending on how long it would take for the flexing to pop or miss align the reticule and erecter lens. Ron is quite right on the small bore scopes, they don't produce the same harmonics, and was designed for that set up, and the Unertl is designed for the front to mount on the barrel. The sope body is suspended in the rings/adjusting turrets with a shock spring in front. The scope must be slipped back into battery after every shot. These scopes were used to some extent in SEA with success.

Guys this comes under the heading of watch what you ask for in accuracy! Had a student on the range this week with an SR25. I was at a loss as to why his weapon would start throwing high rounds after about 6 -7 shots then after a break of about 15 to 20 minutes return to the orignal impact point. That is until he told me it had been reamed using a tight Obermeyer with a short throat. This is great for that accuracy you may wish for in that one shot and with loads that you have prepared for your weapon. It is BAD for multiple shots. As the barrel and chamber heat they get smaller. As the chamber gets smaller the pressure becomes greater and the muzzel velocity increases. That is why he was blowing primers on his 175s and his rounds were climbing after that 6th to 7th shot. Tight is good in some respects, and loose is good in others. The Palma team found out that tight was bad for the isued 155s and everyone with tight went loose! Now they shoot just fine! They are in Arizona now selecting the team that goes to South Africa in April.

Hold hard guys and have fun!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, October 24, 1998 at 15:12:35 (EDT) 

Not to sound to blood thirsty here, but if the idiot is determined to kill himself and maybe take a cop or bystander along with him it would be better just to shoot him down. Trick shots just make it worse in the long run. No matter how justified or "right" these shots seem at the time, the talking heads in the media will start to think this is the norm. That can only lead to disaster.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, October 24, 1998 at 21:16:37 (EDT) 

THANKS, I couldn't have said it better myself!

We actually had the same thing happen right here earlier this year. The designited shooter (not me) took a shot that disabled the trigger mechanism on the perp's rifle. Since then a good number of folks around here have commented to me what a great idea it was. I have had to slowly explain to them just how many disasters that kind of thinking can generate.

The last thing a LE sharpshooter needs is to have to take a lawyer with him on each assignment so that he can consult prior to taking any offensive (politically incorrect) action.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Reading the Duty Roster with Iron Fred in, Tranquil West Virginia USA - Saturday, October 24, 1998 at 22:22:36 (EDT) 

This is not meant to be a flame, but I don't understand some of your reasoning.

Such as:

> "I was at a loss as to why his weapon would start throwing high rounds after about 6 -7 shots then after a break of about 15 to 20 minutes return to the orignal (sic) impact point".

I'm pretty certain that Knight still uses Remington barrels and most likely are still hammer forged (unless Custom Shop). Not a great way to make a barrel and certainly not in the class of "match grade" as we have come to know and expect. Full of stresses for one thing. They start with a little slug of metal with a drilled hole (and probably not reamed) about a foot long. A reverse image mandrel is inserted into it. Rotary hammers pound the metal tightly to the mandrel forming the rifling and elongating the barrel material in the process. Barrels that have stresses built into them tend to change their point-of-impact when they heat up and this is well known. And I'm sure you know it. Now I'm not saying that great barrel 'can not' be made by that method, it is just that the method is normally chosen because it is cheap and fast. A German or Swedish made hammer forged competition barrel is much different than a American made production barrel. It is rumored that Remington has about $13.00 invested in each production barrel. Don't quote me on this as it comes second hand from another list. But even if it costs Rem 4 times this amount ($52.00) it is still not a barrel that I would want to take to the Nationals. I've kept score for a few people who have used Rem Varmint Specials (7-08s and .308s) at 1000 yds. Once things settled down they did creditable work. I don't know how they make the 40X barrels anymore, but they used to be button rifled. A much better way.

>"As the barrel and chamber heat they get smaller".

If I were to have a ring of steel with a hole in it exactly .500" in diameter and wanted to force it over an object that was .501" I would heat the ring and make the hole LARGER; not smaller. I know, I've heard the stories from physics students stating that the opposite is true (that a heated ring actually shrinks), but in real life it is the other way around, at least with steel. Maybe other metal products shrink when heated, but I doubt it.

>"That is until he told me it had been reamed using a tight Obermeyer with a short throat".

I along with many others have used the .308 Obermeyer reamers (or chambers) with good success and never a sign of over pressure with peppy handloads or factory match ammo. I do not want to speculate on someone else's pressure problems.

>"As the chamber gets smaller the pressure becomes greater and the muzzel (sic) velocity increases."

Muzzle velocity increases slightly as the barrel heats up (less heat is absorbed into the relatively cold steel). I've seen it a few times on my Oehler 35, but you have to have a load that has a relatively small extreme spread to show it and shoot 10-shot groups or more. If one has wild variations in velocity then trend probably will not show up.

This is about all I know on the subjects.

Comments and criticisms welcome.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 00:50:28 (EDT) 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Orland Park, IL. USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 04:24:14 (EST) 

Gotta go, breakfast is ready at my parents home.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 05:18:41 (EST) 

Bill is glad he is in base campwhere he can get more coffee
Pictures <billmohr@borg.com>
Somewhere, Ny USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 06:32:01 (EST) 

Which brings me to my next topic. D. West. I was contemplating going to Storm Mountain in June, but solo, till I read your post. E-mail me and we will see if we can get together. I still plan on attending their long range marksmanship course.

Also - DON'T - I REPEAT DON'T mount that scope on that feather weight barrel. There would be more problems than you can imagine, especially once you start to drill and tap that featherweight barrel.

I just also got a 308 back for myself and my wallet is also aching. I also didn't want to wait for a McMillan and am going to try out the UARS stock from Gunsite Mtn. Mr. West we sure can go through the money can't we. Thank God for understanding (and I do mean understanding) wives and children who have already completed their college and have jobs. Expensive toys for older boys is what my wife calls it. Remember also Guns don't kill people - Postal workers do.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
The Poor Side of Town wiht D. West, but in Beautiful, Ohio USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 07:45:07 (EST) 

If you're just starting out get the Douglas bbl. Champion's Choice sells them INSTALLED for $200. The Krieger MAY be a LITTLE better, but unless you're a High-Master class shooter you probably wouldn't notice the difference. If 168's is all you'll shoot a 6 groove/12 twist is fine, but if you may want to shoot 173's get a 4 groove/10 twist. The military even uses these bbls in some of their match M-14. The AF put one on mine, and 2,000 rounds later it still holds a tight X-ring at 600 yards (providing I have my own fecal matter coagulated!)

BTW if you're reloading and want a cheap source for bullets (173bt, the ones used in M-118 Special Ball), get them from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. They're $160 for 1,500! and great for practice/short-medium range shooting. You can also buy LC match brass there too. You have to be a NRA member (should be one anyway, right?) and I think also belong to a local CMP affiliated club or state club. One can also get spare parts, as available from them. They can be found on the net at www.odcmp.org (I think it's .org anyway. if not try .net or .com)

Tim

Tim Sarchett <tjsarchett@webtv.net>
NM USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 11:07:34 (EST) 

I wanted into computer/IT indus. because I took a few courses to get exposed to popular applications(Microsoft stuff, mainly) and just see what it was like. I ended up being fascinated w/ anything and everything that was presented in front of my face. Truly amazing..everything so far. And, I've not scratched the surface. So. a long story made short. About a yr of hunting and getting rejections, but at last a chance: A Co. called EDS(Electronic Data Systems) has hired me and I've just finished the 1st of an 8 week training prog. for what they call Technical Support.. Help Desk, in other words. It's a leap of faith for me; very exciting; a little bit scary; but I'm very thankful for the chance.

Okay, I'll hush because this ain't neonatalcomputerboycountry.com.

Pat:

Hey, I couldn't agree more about the slickness of the Mildot Master. I got one too and it is a fine device. I really haven't had a chance to use it yet. Been busy getting my head shaved and getting a , you know, a total skull surface printed circuit board full color tatoo done. Not to mention the matching pair of platinum 308 case earrings to go with the tatoo. These fashion upgrade items go nicely with my full lenght silver jump suit with the Rolling Stones logo stiched on the back. Hey, I'm trying to look "squared away" when I go to work. Can I help it if cutting edge fashion comes naturally? Just the other day, I took Barbara the Nailer out to dinner. Bought her this really nice slik teddy with little miniature sponge dice arm bands. We were the talk of the town at Mcdonalds. I got a quarter pounder w/ cheese. She got a large carbon dioxide McFlurry. Gave her gas something terrible. Why that teddy was flappin like a hankie in a hurricane...

Probably gonna get banded from the Roster for this... Hey that's what happens when you don't get to shoot regularly, right? Gotta vent all this mental poop somehow. Geez (geez?), all work and no play(read rifle shooting) induces endogenous neurochemical imbalance. Well, today, I'm going to ride out and visit with Hook if he's home. That'll put me right. If not, then banging my head against that sharp rock in the front yard will do the trick...

It's past time that I shut up....
 
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
the city council probably wishes I wasn't in, Smyrna, Ga USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 13:34:05 (EST) 

Pat,
please accept my humblest apologies for making a severe mistake like that. But that now brings another thing to mind. Every day you have a nest of lawyers in there, and then... then you let them go again! Unscathed! :-(

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 13:39:41 (EST) 

I currently have a Remington 700 long action in 30/06. I'm considering one of two possable directions:

Building up the 700 into a UARS stocked SWS. Everything but the action would have to be changed, and that worked on.

or

Purchasing an AR-10T.

If I go with the 700, is there 30/06 ammo available as good as .308?

If I go with the AR-10T, how much work would it need (beyond the usual - mounting a Leupold scope, etc..).

I'd be really interested in the pros/cons of each, and any sugestions you might have.

Being enlisted, I cannot really say money is no object. But I am willing to make a few sacrifices elsewhere get it done right.

Thanks,
Jim

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 16:20:13 (EST) 

AL, Rick, Ron, thanks for the thoughts on the scope mount, I have decided to do it a little different.

Bill, the 20mm vulcan and the chain gun are two different weapon systems. The Vulcan you are speaking of is the "Gatling gun" type right? The chain gun is a single barreled weapon with it's reciprocating assy. traveling in a circle on a piece of chain driven by an electric motor, as the chain goes around it moves the bolt foreward and back like a piston. The Gatling types have much higher cyclic rates because their multiple barrels and bolts dissipate heat faster than the single barrel and bolt of the chain gun. Both weapons are powered by an electric motor, and are belt fed. The Bradley contraption has a 25mm chain gun in it's turret. I agree that the 20mm vulcan is a most impressive weapon, only surpassed by it's 30mm big brother.
 

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 16:30:27 (EST) 

Oh well, enough fo now. Flame on Ron and I'm always willing to learn new and exciting things! Jump in Al, I think you have a good background for this as well.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, October 25, 1998 at 21:51:07 (EST) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Relaxing in the Grand Republic of, Ohio USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 00:04:43 (EST) 

Well I'm SURE we've kicked this subject around more than once but it's one that keeps coming up in discussions with others and I feel it's worth talking about from time to time. What method do you'all use to clean your weapons? Which "chemicals"? Rods, brushes, slotted vs jag etc. etc. etc. And then the 64,000 dollar question - how clean is clean?? This ought to keep things lively for a bit! Looking forward to some good discussion!

Back in his hide Sarge anticipates incoming!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 00:14:08 (EST) 

As a follow up. (longish)

>"The chamber of a rifle will close, I believe, because the longitudinal is now the length of the bore and as the metal swells the chamber closes and becomes tighter".

Still can not see what the longitudinal length has anything to do with a chamber growing smaller.

>"All of the M24s stayed on zero while the SR climbed 3 to 4 moa at 600 meters".

I do not doubt that the phenomenon took place. You saw it. It happened. Period. However, it is dangerous to draw conclusions based on a sample of one, or even two. There may have been something unusual about this Krieger barrel; hard to speculate. The Obermeyer chamber has been in use for many years with no idiosyncrasies. It is merely a S.A.A.M.I. minimum with a shortened and a smaller diameter throat. And perhaps the lead angle optimized. Two consecutive 300 yard rapid fire strings will definitely warm a barrel up too. And the distance is enough to show any unusual tendencies. But then again, this is iron sights and not a good way to prove anything.

As an aside.

Krieger barrels are not perfect.

My first Krieger AR-15 barrel was purchased as semi-blank about 7 or 8 years ago. Krieger turned the large end to .950" and the small end to .750". No tapers were involved just two cylindrical sections. When this barrel was spun in the lathe it was obvious that it was not turned in one setup. The two cylindrical sections were not concentric with one another, but about .030" out. I stood back and rubbed my chin for awhile. How could this happen. I wouldn't mind a couple of thousandths and could understand that. But not this much. Something must have been wrong with his chuck. I went ahead and chambered it and it has provided great service for many years with no unusual properties. I don't remember which end was not concentric with the inner bore, but this is a case of metal not being in equal thickness all the way around the inner bore. One side of the barrel will heat up quicker than the other, but one would be hard pressed to actually prove anything on target. Too many other variables. One thousand yard benchresters have experimented with sleeving the entire barrel with a tube to keep a cool breeze from causing uneven heating (or cooling) of the barrels. Don't really know what is in vogue in that sport; just what I read.

Back in about 1978 or so I bought a new Remington 40-XC repeater barreled action (.308) . There is a long story about how I eventually got this animal to shoot correctly, but we'll save it for another day. Anyhow, eventually I wanted to turn the last 2 inches of the barrel to .850" to fit a barrel band and recrown it. It soon became obvious that the outside of the barrel was not concentric with the inner bore either. These barrels are not turned, ground, or finished on "centers" (as they should be). Maybe this is all changed so don't hold me to it. I'm just stating what I saw on my particular barrels.

Does all this make a difference? Theoretically it does. A barrel that is hotter on one side will behave like a bi-metal thermometer. It could direct shots high, low, or any direction. Not a good situation that is for sure. Although we are dealing with miniscule amounts of movement the error is amplified by great distances.

Also, after shooting a string of shots (in a conventional rifle) a barrel will not cool evenly. The underside will be hot for a longer period of time compared to the top. Free floated barrels should have a generous amount of space around them. We want them to "breathe". Beauty is as beauty does.

All this is just "food for thought". Dig in.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 09:31:38 (EST) 

;-)

Bain
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, in the near future USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 10:26:46 (EST) 

If you're going to a war with a semiauto, get a M21 or a MSG90.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 10:43:35 (EST) 

For those of you that do not get Tactical Shooter....get it. I recieved a copy this week end and was impressed. A good magazine that deals with what we are interested in, and not alot of other crap. i subscribed right away.

Outstanding Stuff!
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
In a big Swamp, FL USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 11:28:21 (EST) 

Cleaning: I use a one piece rod, would prefer coated, but have not found one that has not begun to shed the coating after coming in contact with solvent. Solvents are Shootes Choice and Sweets 7.62. I clean until patches some out clean. Anyone have experience with the pocket cleaning kits that Dillon is selling. I think they are calling them Tactical Kits. They seem like a good/small system to take into the field.

Question: What do you guys do to break in your barrels? I currently clean after every round for the first 10 and then after every 3 until 100. After that its either every 5 to 10 depending on available time...
Laszlo Markos <lmarkos@texas.net>
Round Rock, TX USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 11:43:40 (EST) 

Laszlo,
Check out the Dewy coated rod it's impevious to solvent. It's Teflon coated and works great.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 12:50:34 (EST) 

Al O,
Good to hear I'm not the only one out here with a hurting bank account over custom rifles, but you know, living off of spam for a while isn't such a bad thing. I'm sending you an E-mail about S.M.

Rick,
Your a saint for putting up with all of us. Thank you.
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Orland Park, IL. USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 13:42:00 (EST) 

Brian
Brian <bmurph72@mail.caps.maine.edu>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 14:24:54 (EST) 

On Rods: Dewey Rod's are excellent. I have yet to see one affected by solvents. They will be affected by stupidity. In other words, use a bore guide! Otherwise you'll strip the coating right off.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 14:54:11 (EST) 

Regarding the Remington factory barrels:
I have one in 308, It will hold under 1" at 200yards with a Sierra 168 match bullet, Federal brass and primer, and 42gr of I4895. Now maybe this rifle is more like a 40x than a 700bdl. When I first got it, ti was a 22-250 that was stretching the caseheads and flattening the primers on 5 different bands of factory ammo. I sent it back to Remington, and after 4 "barrel assemblies" and nine months, they notified me that they couldn't get it to shoot acceptable groups (never did admit that there may have been a headspace problem) and that it would be 4 to 6 months until they could get more "barrel assemblies" to try. They said that I coud get the rifle rechambered in any calibre but 22 and get it back quickly. When I recieved my rifle, the only correspondance that came with it was a note, "We hope that you will be pleased with the accuracy of your new rifle, and we appologize for any inconvenience this may have caused." At the range, the first group out of the rifle at 200yards was 3/4" 5 shot with Americn Eagle 150gr fmj!! YES, I was pleased.

Steve
steve Uhall <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
greensburg, Pa USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 15:02:41 (EST) 

>"Snipped…."They will be affected by stupidity"……. Snipped again

Scott,

In my early years I once left a Dewey or Parker Hale .22 caliber rod in a hot barrel with hot Hoppe's solvent. That was the end of that coating, right now. Also, earlier in the Dewey cleaning rod history ('70s & '80s) they used a red coating that was not very durable. It would soften up, get loose, and bunch up on the rod. I still have a couple that I've dismantled for parts. I think capillary action pulled cleaning solvent under the coating.

I've had to rework a few handles to get them to work smoothly. There is a certain radius inside the handles that would cause the little loose balls to bind up instead of rolling smoothly. They worked fine with a brush, but a patch would just skid through without following the rifling.

Anyone ever heard of blueprinting cleaning rods? But at about $20.00 a pop, they are worth fixing to one's satisfaction. Lots of time went into making a special tool to remove the split nut(??) on the handle.

That is about all I know on the subject.
 

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 15:44:05 (EST) 

D.W. <westforce@juno.com>
OP, IL. USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 16:39:28 (EST) 

Brian
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 17:00:20 (EST) 

Those of you who know me, know where I'll be. Those of you who don't, I'll be checking the Sniper Country e-mail address for a bit longer.

Hold hard. Shoot straight.

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Not here, anymore USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 18:08:09 (EST) 

Sarge, you devil you. I think you're about to start a rave about cleaning supplies. But here is mine...

After shooting fifteen or so shots I clean a general barrel cleaning, the first couple of passes I'll use something like hoppes or mil spec to break up the powder fouling, then Shooters to get after any coppermines that show up. I don't use moly, but may someday, so I have to chase copper every time. My recipe for Shooters is to use straight, run wet patch or two thru, let set for a few minutes then patch untill dry. Repeat as neccassary. Last I wet and dry patch with hoppes gun oil just to push the shooters out before I fire again. It does pay to look at patches carefully. The shooters really brings out the copper in your riflings (caused, I suspect, by a rough bore).

endwrench, I suspect that the snipers job is to launch them, not make 'em.

Scanning the hills, Bill looks for Sarge
Gun Pictures <billmohr@borg.com>
Somewhere, Ny USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 22:07:23 (EST) 

Brian,

The choice of 1:11" twist is a good one which allows a little flexibility in case you want to go to 190 VLDs someday.

As far as Sierra 190s go a 1:12 works fine. My 40-XC came with what was supposedly a 1:12" twist. OK if they say so, it must be true. But for the heck of it I checked the rate using the "tight patch" method. Push a tight patch well into the bore with a cleaning rod. Mark the rod somehow (I used tape) at 12:00. Now measure 12 inches from a certain point on the rod to a certain point on the buttstock. Pull or push the rod the correct distance and the cleaning rod SHOULD rotate 360 degrees. Mind didn't. Almost but not quite. I repeated the test numerous times trying to prove myself wrong, but found the twist rate is actually 1:12 ¼". It is button rifled so that is probably where the error crept in. Button rifled barrels have been known to wander a little in this respect.

Choosing a conservative twist rate can help accuracy in two ways. Theorically, (here I go again,……) the rifle will physically twist less as the bullet is accelerating in the barrel. Less disturbance means more consistency. This also applies to bullet weight. The heavier the bullet the more disturbance of the rifle. Also, since bullets are not usually in perfect balance they will "jump" less when released from the constraints of the barrel crown as they find their new center of rotation.

Little things can add up to a more accurate rifle, assuming the basics are correct. I once heard a quote that went something like this. "Luck favors those who are prepared". Along this line when building a rifle always try to stack-the-deck in your favor. Do not casually give away accuracy for no real gain somewhere else.
Good Shooting,

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 22:07:43 (EST) 

OK here is my procedure - bore guide - a MTM or something like that but it protects the action. Don't remember who makes my rod but it isn't a Dewey or anything than fancy (yet). After a range session - USUALLY no more than 50 rounds, we're talking .308's here - wet Hoppes patch on a brass jag through once then Hoppes on a bronze brush (.45 caliber)(these are factory barrels and guns) making 10 to 15 passes. Then start dry patches, all patches are GI spec for .45 caliber and above making a very tight fit, using that same brass jag. As many patches as necessary to come clean and dry. Then Sweets on one patch let soak in barrel for 5 minutes then patches til clean, dry and no blue. NOW here is a real interesting question for those that use brushes - after getting the barrel "clean" ie no carbon build up on a patch - have you ever run the brush through again then start dry patches again and see what happens??? Tell you what happens in my barrels - more times than not I need to keep going with more patches - they come out dirty after using the brush again! Hence my previous question - How clean is clean???

Really expecting incoming Sarge goes to the bunker and waits!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 22:40:30 (EST) 

On the gas guns, I hadn't really thought about the M1A, as I figured the AR-10T shouldn't have bedding problems. But it is starting to sound like the 10T has some problems of its own (maybe I should take up the offer I had of a swap for a forged Norinco receiver, then turning it over to Fulton Armory. I ought to have enough saved up to pay for the work by the time they get done).

I have two more questions I'm lost on:
First, what is the difference between the M21 and the M25 SWS? How much of an improvement is the M25?

Second, does anyone have suggestions for carrying the M11 (AKA SIG P228) so it won't fall out during a sniper crawl? The issue M12 holster is a lousy fit (too loose for a short barrel pistol).

Thanks for the info so far, that 30-06 thing was a real help.

Jim

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 22:46:25 (EST) 

This is NOT to say there aren't some who really get into long-range shooting, and would also know how to handload: there must be. And I'm sure it's happened before. But it doesn't really make sense to do it regularly. Train with the ammo you will shoot in combat! Handloading would be very problematic in a combat environment! So, may 's well learn to shoot the issue stuff as well as possible, and stick with it. Also, handloading would likely be frowned upon by the chain of command, for the very reason I mentioned (among others).

I'm sure Rick or Gunner Gooch can expound more than I can.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
IN USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 00:05:02 (EST) 

We don't load our own. The Matts post was right. Most of us military types just launch the stuff, and could care less where it came from as long as it works. Loading enough for training would be quite a task. Match grade reloading is far different than loading for deer at 200yds. Using issue stuff avoids Geneva convention problems, even though any match bullet I know of is technicaly legal, being non-expanding.

Standardization is important. Despite minor variances from lot to lot and between SWS's, a sniper can go from one duty station to the next and merely refine his dope, rather than start from scratch because his new posting has their own proprietary load.
Finally, in a war, the sniper does not have to call "time out" to go and mix up a new batch. The good folks at LC send him another can and let him go and have fun.
The military comp teams roll some of their own from what I've heard but that is very rarified air up there.

There is more, but that should answer your question I think.
 
E Engler <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 07:31:19 (EST) 

regarding your 16x Tasco scope. I cannot comment on the scope, as I've never seen it. However, in September, if I remember correctly, this issue of scope magnification was thrashed out a bit - might even have been end of August already. One of the things mentioned was that with a fixed 16X you'll have problems when you start hitting any mirage - any 16X, not just this specific Tasco. I suggest you go back a bit in the archives for that, as there was some good info on it then.

Marius

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 07:38:28 (EST) 

Do you clean your bore brushes between uses? I found that cleaning the brushes with acetone or isopropyl alcohol and letting them air dry on a paper towel helped to cut some of the "re-slop the bore" down. Isn't the phosphor bronze in conventional brushes susceptible to being dissolved by strong ammonia solvents like Sweets, CR-10, Copper Out etc. etc.?
For what its worth, I run two Shooters Choice soaked patches through the bore, wait five minutes (unless barrels hot), two Dry patches, solvent soaked brush from chamber to muzzle only 10 times, patch clean. Then if I suspect copper fouling JB bore or S-C Copper remover and patch clean followed by oiled patch for storage.

P.S. Don't dip your brushes in solvent bottle or can.

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, ByGawd USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 08:37:44 (EST) 

Brian
USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 12:40:22 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 13:24:00 (EST) 

I am looking for a part-time position in the Central Florida as an adjunct instructor / range hand for tactical firearms training. I already have a full-time military job, but am looking to stay in the field and keep my skills current. My qualifications include:

BSR antiterrorist evasive driver training
USMC Helicopter Rope Suspension Training (HRST) Master
Previous member of USMC Fleet Antiterrorist Security Team Company, 1st
Platoon, with an operational tour in Mogadishu, Somalia. While at FAST Co. I spent most of my time as a Designated Marksman (urban
sniper) and completed extensive training in stalking, reconnaissance and surveillance patrolling, tracking, MOUT and CQB. While there I became well versed with the M9, MP-5N, M-14 DMWS, Mossberg 500 and Remington 870.
Infantry Rifle, Weapons and Heavy Machine Gun Platoon Commander
billets with two years verifiable experience in combat pistol/rifle training techniques (well beyond KD course of fire training)
Qualified Range Safety Officer (Camp Pendleton, CA)

I am not looking to earn a paycheck, and in fact would be happy to simply be a range hand for free, just so long as I can remain in the tactical training environment. Any assistance/referral in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Jon
jon custis <jacustis@aol.com>
orlando, FL USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 14:04:00 (EST) 

Gooch,
Thanks for the info on the mil dot training aid, I'll have to make one. It's tough trying to teach an old dog new tricks(HA).
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 16:20:24 (EST) 

Roy out
Roy <thomason@cos.saic.com>
CO USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 18:25:36 (EST) 

How long does it take you guys to get clean patches? I get a pretty good pile of patches built up and can quit after about 30 minutes.

What's a good way to clean the inside of the action? I've got a Rem 700 in .30-06. Thanks for your help.

PS - No, I didn't break in the barrel. I'm still kind of a rookie.

Matt
Matt <shuster@erols.com>
outside the, beltway USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 18:33:22 (EST)