Robert Feliciano
***
IF you are in fact a government employee of whatever country you
claim to be, then Im sure that this information can be obtained from the
United States government if they think you need it.
Additionally, your
Yeah right!!
I DONT need flamed today in, USA - Sunday, May 09, 1999 at 18:09:13
(ZULU)
I´m looking at putting together a tactical rifle rig, and am particularly interested in the new Remington LTR (I´m thinking about putting it together with a Leupold M3 LR). I´m very interested in learning more about this weapon, and would appreciate hearing from anyone with experience with it or related information (tests, specs, price, availability, etc.). Product review, anyone? Thanks for any help you can provide.
Doug
doug p. <djpurc@yahoo.com>
Washington, DC, USA - Sunday, May 09, 1999 at 19:09:29 (ZULU)
Thanks Trigger, and Will
I will try both these methodes and get back to you on how they turned out. Also would you happend to know of any sites out there that could show pictures of how to do it, not that your info wasn't detailed but I have always been more of a visual learner. I do understand what you are talking about.
Thanks again
PatIII
Patrick III < TORQUESTER@aol.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Sunday, May 09, 1999 at 19:46:32 (ZULU)
Hey paranoid one.
Robert Feliciano is legit. He's an Officer in the Phillipine Marine Corps.
Paranoid, I'm assuming you are a regular visitor to this site. Why is it that a guy comes on here and asks for information about something and all of a sudden its a commie plot to take away your rights. If all of the information is available through goverment channels why do you think he is asking for it here? You would be surprised how little iformation there is in the military "system" about sniping and the .50's in particular.
There is no need to bash someone just because he is asking for info.
If what Robert was asking is out of line then this whole site ought to
be shut down as one big OPSEC violation. I'd rather be talking about Roberts
question than talking about ghillies for paintball games.
gooch <pte00791@maail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, May 09, 1999 at 22:52:59 (ZULU)
Pat III,
You might be better served seeking answers to your questions elsewhere.
Sorry.
Will
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 00:55:32 (ZULU)
Will,
I think i would have to agree with you on that one, things dont seem to be to friendly around here. Darrel West warned me about Gooch, i guess i should have realized he kinda owns things around here.Umm..
Laters
PAT III
PAT III <TORQUESTER@aol.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 01:23:26 (ZULU)
TO All that know something about Sniper Rifles,
Maby this will be more in your catagory GOOCH...
Im thinking about buying the GALIL Sniper Rifle .308 win, found a good one used. Tell me what you think of this rifle. Since most of you seem to know so much about sniper rifles. OR if you know anything about this one.THANX
PAT III
PAT III <TORQUESTER>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 01:31:52 (ZULU)
Brown Alert!
I think we are all gonna need something to cover our boots with now!
B.rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 02:00:46 (ZULU)
goochs' 'Paranoid',
A fair comment. In todays anti-firearm environment knowledge can be 'misinterpreted' towards less than reasonable ends.
If Robert is the genuine article then it could be reasonably assumed that off-line contact is available to a Philipines military establishment or liaison office at a US government facility.
Given we restrict roster topics like breaching airplane frames/glass, methods of defeating surveillance technology etc it is fair to receive a heads-up on what could have been a provocateur.
It wasnt a subtle heads-up but if readers responded on site with
detailed information the responses would have been even less delicate.
Matt Black
Too paranoid to say - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 02:05:27 (ZULU)
Where did this shit come from?
PatIII. I don't own shit on this site. I don't know what you've been told about me but I give my opinions like everyone else on here. I enjoy talking about long range precision shooting and I figure if I can help out a cop from San Franciso or Dallas or whatever I will help out. All I own is a retarded rottweiler and a 83 Jimmy and thats about it.
AMF
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 02:54:31 (ZULU)
I honestly don't understand what all the fuss is about the 50 cal rifles as reported by the VPC. According to published test results, the Most powerful shoulder fired weapon was the Civil War era MAYNARD rifle. This rifle is at least 136 years old and as far as I know, no domestic terrorist has ever used one. For those who doubt the power of this weapon, I will post the published test which was actually printed in a newspaper over 136 years ago. (For those journalists at VPC, this is the way to do it!)
Toby is a high private in the First Regiment of the Mississippi army.
His company is armed with the breech-loading Maynard rifle, "warrented
to shoot 12 times a minute and carry a ball effectually 1,600 yards."
Men who fought an Monterey and Buens Vista call the new-fangled
thing a
"pop-gun." To test its effacy, Toby's captain told the men that
they must
"try their guns." Toby procured the necessary muntitions of war
and started
for the woods. Saw a squirrel up a very high tree-took aim-fired.
Effects
of the shot are immediate and wonderful. Tree effectually stripped,
and nothing
of the squirrel to be found, except three broken hairs. "Pop gun"
rose in value
equal to a four pounder. But Toby wouldn't shoot toward any more
trees--
afraid of being arrested for cutting down other peoples timber.
Walked a mile
and a quarter to get sight of a hill. By the aid of a small telescope,
saw hill
in distance; saw rock on hill; put in big load; shut both eyes--fired.
As soon
as breath returned, could see, just could, but couldn't hear--at
least could not
distinguish any sounds; thought Niagara had broke loose, or all
outdoors had gone
a drum-beating. Determined to see if shot hit. Borrowed horse, and
started
toward hill. After traveling two days and nights, reached place:
saw setting sun
shining through hill. Knew right away where shot hit. Went closer-
stumbled over
rocky fragments scattered for half mile in line with bullet. Come
to hole- knew
the bullet hit there , because saw lead on the edges; walked in,
and walked through;
saw teamster on the other side, "indulging in profane language"-in
fact "cussing
considerable," because lightning had killed his team. Looked as
finger directed--
saw six dead oxen in line with hole through mountain; knew it was
the bullets work,
but didn't say so to angry teamster. Thought best to be leaving;
in consequence,
didnt explore the path of bullet any further; therefore, dont know
where it stopped;
dont know whether it stopped at all; in fact, rather think it didn't.
Mounted horse;
rode back through hole made by the bullet, but never told Captain
a word about it;
to tell the truth, was rather afraid he'd think it a hoax.
"Its a right big story, boys," said Toby, in conclusion, "But its
true, sure as
shooting. Nothing to do with Maynard rifle but load her up, turn
her North, and pull
the trigger. If twenty of them don't clean out all of Yankeedom,
then I'm a liar, thats all."
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 04:33:39 (ZULU)
Steve,
Hey, do you have any good load data for the Maynard? Thanks for the
humor!
The VPC has the solution, now they want a problem so they can implement
their solution. They're the same as the rest of the Anti-gun crowd, Gun-Control
is the answer, not Criminal Control.
Later,
BilB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 12:50:10 (ZULU)
Bill R.,
The secret of the AR is nothing other than barrel. Original equipment barrels are nothing short of a crap shoot. I've seen several that were exceptional, but many more that were nothing short of tomato stakes.
The secret of the .223, at longer ranges, is bullet. One 55 grainer that works well is the 55 grain SPBT (1365) Sierra with 27 grains of WW 748. The 69 Sierra with 25.8 grains VV N-140/540, and the 80 Knox, Sierra, Berger VLD's with 24.2 grains VV N-140/540. Each is a non-moly load. None of the latter are loaded to magazine length.
The 16 inch AR's are in a class by themselves. The short gas systems on these rifles can have things moving before the heavy bullets exit the bore. Best to stick with the light bullets in these rifles, regardless of the available twist. One solution is to lengthen the gastube, but that would only help an owner going for a custom barrel.
When speaking of shooting PD's at 800 yards, I would guess that many of the little varmints have died laughing, regardless of the diameter and weight of projectile being thrown in their direction. Just a casual observation, of course.
When we commonly have proper lasers, these little babies will be
in big trouble!
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
BOOTIFUL - SE, IL, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 13:46:45 (ZULU)
G2 Stalker Ghillie Suit?
Has anyone here had any experience with this piece of equipment? I understand that the Marine Corp is going to use it and that the law enforcement community also is using it. I am curious about the quality of the product, practicality of the product, and how well it hides the individual in the woods.
Thanks to those who respond!
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 15:36:12 (ZULU)
Dudes (Pete I hope its OK to use your line) Gooch is a great help to alot of us on here. Now I dont think of myself as someone that needs guidence after many years behind the rifle, but everyone picks up different things and this is a place to share. I dont expect to agree with everything someone says and I hope others tell me when the dont agree with me. That is not unfriendly just life. Lets be adults and no one take your ball and go home.
Bill W., I have never tried 55grains 223's at long range. How do they hold the wind. I will tell you that while everyone else uses 69's I use the Hornady 68's. I'm also the only guy I know that shoots 155 Palma's across the course.
The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 15:39:26 (ZULU)
wYLDE-tHANG.
You mean you don'y have a partical beam yet? Mine needed to have
the stock re-bedded, barrel shortened, rings lapped, and batteries charged
before I could get sub minute of angle at 18,000 yds.
Ooops, had to switch scopes too, the ARD's weren't dark enough at
ranges under 1,000 yards.
Mike Un-Dude, Well said, even for an Un-dude!
Gooch,
Does Al O know you are calling him a retarded Rottweiler? ;-)
Have a great day guys, AND KEEP ITY CLEAN!
cHAO!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 16:11:48 (ZULU)
Mike,
The reference to the 55 grain Sierra as a bullet that produces excellent and consistent groups to 500 yards. Beyond that point, heaven knows, but with a good barrel it will produce for the varmint hunter. I'm sure it is nothing great in the wind, but the "greatness" of a bullet that holds excellent elevation is the rifleman and the rifle anyway. Get use to a light bullet and it is usable.
Those of us that used the excellent IVI C-77 (62 grain - 5.56)in Canada for target shooting to 1,000 yards got used to it and had no problems shooting against the excellent .308 DA C-21 ball to that range. I'm not a great prone shot, but easily got into the top twenty of the Gov. Generals final fifty in '93. This is the Canadian equivalent to our M-855 and don't thumb your nose at it....You could be bleeding! Those days are over now. In '94 it was BYOA and thus, I'm the only crazy to ever fire the 5.56 issue ball in the Gov's 900M final at the Canadian Nationals. An exciting and interesting period for me. The word around camp that week was: "Beware of the man with one rifle".
Hornady's problem has always been that of consistency. From one lot
to the next it is a crap shoot. The 75 A-max for me was a total flop.
Seventy percent of the group was in a little knot @500. The remainder
could easily exceed one minute. The first lot of Hornady 75 grain HPBT
bullets shot extremely well. Under 1/2 minute to be exact. I ordered more
recently and was terribly disappointed. All done in a machine rest, so
a "bad day" doesn't enter the picture.
Sure nothing wrong with the 155 Palma. It has been a super bullet from day one.
Pete R.,
As bad as I hate to say it, we may all be(for recreation)restricted
to lasers and particle beams before long. Wonder what the VPC thinks about
such no windage LR operations???
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SUNNY - SE, IL, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 17:13:36 (ZULU)
SOUTH AFRICAN .223 BALL: A brief and underqualified "snap" review:
I put a box downrange yesterday out of an AR15 with a VERY heavy, Hart SS benchrest barrel. This tube has seen a lot of use, and some abuse, but still goes .7 MOA with good ammo. The SA stuff tried, really tried, to break MOA at 150 but couldn't quite make it. Conditions were such that I'd say 90% of potential could be realized.... but, this was not a scientifically conducted sesion, that is, I didn't wait minutes between shots for barrel heat consistency, and after all, only 30 rounds were fired. I had to try this stuff after all the rave reviews. Looks like it probably is better than some of the other surplus stuff that's out there. It is Berdan primed.
ned <michigun@hotmail>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 17:44:07 (ZULU)
PatIII,
I agree with The UnDude, Mike M's posting and I sent you an email to that fact (along with an answer to your question). It seems here as at any gathering whether online or in person, that Some of us forget to leave our Egos at the door. If someone has a different opinion that you do, you need to remember that is exactly what it is, a difference of opinion, not a personal attack. Sometimes we need to get a thicker skin rather than running home with your ball (as Mike put it) when someone looks at you crosseyed. If someone makes a point there will always be someone there with a counterpoint, as it should be. Enough on that, a course in child pschololgy isnt in line with my major.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have a question that I need some feedback on; bad, good or indifferent.
I MIGHT have an opportunity to conduct some ballistics testing this summer
on various mediums using various types of ammunition. My main intent is
to gather as much data as possible for dissemination to other military
and law enforcement organizations to use if the situation arises. I dont
want to waste time and resources duplicating other tests that have already
been properly conducted and documented.
I am trying to develop a survey to send out to people within our
community and a few question that I have thus far are:
1. What types of medium (test items) would you, as a LE or military sniper, like to see tested? (auto, window, tempered glass etc, auto doors, aircraft fuselages, windscreens; various building materials, etc...)
2. What conditions would you like to see tracked during the tests? (atmospheric, ammo, rifle, etc...)
3. What characteristics of the test items would you like to see tracked? (thickness, density, temperature, composition, etc...)
4. What terminal balistic effects would you like to see tracked or focused on during the tests? (trajectory after impact, remaining bullet weight, glass fragmentation pattern, depth of penetration, etc...)
5. What other similar or related tests do you know of that have been conducted? (NOTE: I am not currently asking for specific test results just the name of the test, organization who conducted it, type of test conducted-auto glass, aircraft windscreen, metal penetration, etc. This is so I can save time and resources by not duplicating tests already done.
6. Of tests already conducted by others, what types of tests would you like repeated to get better, more detailed results or to explore different effects?
6. What other questions do you think I should added to this survey?
I realize that this may cause some concern for some people. Let me
mention that I am a current member of the military and have been for nine
years (4 active & 5 reserve or guard). I am concerned that what we
have in the sniping community is an extreme 'compartmentalization' of information
and training. Many don't want to share things with others because of liability
concerns or for other reasons (paranoia?). Many units or departments conduct
half-a**ed tests because they have no other source for the needed info.
These tests often can result in erroneous, false or misleading data. This
has the potential of possible causing harm to a hostage during a rescue
or the escape of a 'bad' guy during a raid or what have you. How many remember
the attemted take down of the gunman holding hostages in the electronics
store (Good Guys ?) in CA during the early 1990's? The marksman / sniper(s)
tried to shoot him thru the glass storefront. Without going into the details
of how & why, the bullet missed its mark and the gunman then started
shooting hostages.
What I propose is performing these tests to gather as much information
and test data under conditions that are as controlled as is possible to
provide data that is of the highest quality and of the most use to LE and
military snipers. Of course, my intent is to keep the distribution of the
test info and results within the LE and military communtiy and as much
as is possible out of the hands of those who would use it for harm.
I would appreciate ALL comments and input on this idea, both bad and good via my email address. Please send emails with comments and input with "COMMENTS" in the subject line of the email.
If you would like to be added to the mailing list to receive the finalized version of the questionaire (pre-testing survey) when it is emailed out, please send me an email with "ADD TO SURVEY LIST" in the Subject line. Please write in the body of the email if you are, an LE sniper, Active Duty Military sniper, Reserve or Guard sniper, civilian shooter or other (other-please briefly tell me what you are, Reg. police, AD infantry, Res/Grd infantry, or whatever.) This is ONLY so I have an idea of the various levels of interest from the different parts of the sniper/shooting community and to help tailor the questions and test to benefit the most people. For anything other than being added to the survey, please send a SEPERATE email to me, subject line "COMMENTS". I expect a volume of mail on this and this will help me keep it organized. Thanks.
ALL E-MAILS, E-MAIL ADDRESS, AND OTHER INFORMATION WILL BE HELD STRICTLY
CONFIDENTIAL!!! THE ONLY THING THAT WILL BE DISTRIBUTED IS ANY QUESTIONS
THAT ARE SUBMITTED TO ME THAT YOU ASK ME TO ADD TO THE FINAL SURVEY!!!
If you have any questions or or concerns please email me directly.
[If anyone frequents any other sniper forums, please feel free to
copy this email (IN ITS ENTIRETY PLEASE!) to those forums to get the widest
distribution possible.]
Gentlemen, regarding these tests, "To be forewarned is to be forearmed."
CCaspers
CCaspers <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 19:14:19 (ZULU)
155 palmas...for reasons beyond my knowledge they just work, heavier and longer should be better but the 155s work. possibly a weight to velocity relationship?
anyone tried an Armalite .50 yet?
Pat III, maybe you need to evaluate exactly why you are here...hell,
I could get upset at the poeple who told me that my rifle was a POS because
of the name stamped on the side, or that my scope was over priced junk
because it didn't have the big "L" on it, I was even called a dredge of
society by someone I have never met because of my chosen profession, I
don't really care. I come here to learn shooting and those same people
giving you a bit of crap one week may provide that bit of info you have
been needing next week. I don't come here to make friends (though I have
run into some really great people here), I come to learn. sometimes people
are just going to be difficult, I have asked people for info about products
and been told "I know and you don't so get screwed" but getting pissed
doesn't help my situation. find the info, solve the problem, drive on.
Rich <rich76@hotmail.com>
who knows this week, with luck- USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 21:20:19
(ZULU)
Anyone had experience with a PEWS early warning system?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 21:29:50 (ZULU)
hello,take on offense, just checking in to see if i finally found a web site that really knows what their talking about concerning the true facts about being a sniper. i'm an former sniper(in country)(no brag,just fact.seems the news is full of b.s. about the love affair the true sniper has with his or hers weapon. just wanted to know if there were any guys left that have been there done that.(doing time in the bush).
paul mueller <pam3@epix.net>
wysox, pa, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 21:38:07 (ZULU)
Bolt,
Have worked with PEWS, what are you looking for?
Trigger50
Trigger50
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 21:40:35 (ZULU)
Rich,
About the Armalite gun, I seen it in atlanta and talked to Mark Westrum about the gun. On first appearance, it's very heavy, nearly 40 lbs. It has a match grade barrel but he delined to say which maker he was using. The gun was built for the purpose of getting people into the .50 caliber shooting business for less money. He stated the current price will be about 2400-2600 bucks. No optics. The new Barrett M-99 single shot bolt action is a neat little gun, and i'll bet it shoots good, but can't say for sure and i'm NOT a fan of any Barrett rifle. Not accurate enough for the weight or money.
Gun isn't in general release yet, the show gun was a prototype.
Trigger50
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 21:45:01 (ZULU)
55gr 223's
I have had very good results out to 600 yards with:
55 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
25.2 gr WW 748 (or try 25.2 gr AA 2230)
Federal Gold Medal (Benchrest) primer
Remington nickle brass
1.750 case lenth
2.250 oal
Both of these loads work in my Bushmaster AR-15 and my Remington PSS. The WW works best in the AR (just) but I can find no real difference in the PSS.
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Enjoying the Spring Warmth in, Refreshing, West Virginia, USA - Monday,
May 10, 1999 at 22:43:00 (ZULU)
Ned-
Could you tell us a bit more about the South African ball you were
testing...there seems to be several different flavors on the maket.
How was it packages, dates on headstamp, etc.
Thanks:
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Coaltown, SC, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 23:28:41 (ZULU)
Hey Guys,
I thought I would post with a couple more questions whose answers I couldn't find in the "hot tips..." I just got all my goodies from Sinclair the other day and my questions are as follows...
What lube or solution is best for swabbing out the barrel after I clean it and am going to store it...CLP, Shooters'Choice FP-10, or Kroil?? and also what of those three are best for wiping down the exterior of the rifle? Are they all pretty much the same or is one better (or worse) than any other. Thanks a million and take care.
RichS <RS1441@aol.com>
Trying to find a place to shoot in Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 23:28:53 (ZULU)
Hello,
I am looking for some constructive input(I.E. readers wisdom) on my purchase of a rifle for long-range precision field shooting! I have looked at everything from the stock box varmint rifles to the overpriced Euroguns to the 3 to 4k customs. I have read all the gun mags, reviews & viewed websites of many rifle manufactures both production & custom & finally believe that I made a choice for my purchase.
After reading the July99 issue of Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement,I read a review by Chuck Taylor on the C.A.T. Sniper in .308. This Remington based rifle seems to be capabile of meeting my shooting needs. I called Cupheag Armory Technical & had the opportunity to speak to Mr. Murray on my desire to invest in a new rifle. He was the only company that I have spoke to that asked what my use/mission for the rifle would be & and explained to me the real-world drawbacks of much of the competition based rifles painted green and called "Sniper".
I have not had a great deal of experence in this area of firearms, but now feel that I am ready to make my purchase which must be kept within my budget of 3k. If anyone has had experence in regards to their own purchases with this company or other sugested companys I would like to hear your opinions.
Paul <VLODPG@HOTMAIL.COM>
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 23:47:23 (ZULU)
Did the powers that be (no pun intended, xring) of Sniper Country ever consider hosting a convention or some other kind of shindig where all the good folks contributing to the site could see each other in 3-D? Or is this not a good idea? You know, have some exhibitors, seminars, demonstrators, or whatever. Make it a day long, a weekend long, a week long... Would such an event be open to all who desire to attend, would attendance be restricted to professional snipers, could there be a mixture of both, how 'bout it?
Will
USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 23:51:01 (ZULU)
Will,
That sounds like a nifty idea!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 23:57:41 (ZULU)
G2 Stalker Ghillie Suit:
Has anyone had any experience with this piece of equipment. If so, I was wondering about it's easy of use, how well it performs in the field and how the construction is. I understand the Marine Corp is going to be using it and that other law enforcements have also.
Darren...
Darren <tourists>
San Francisco, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 00:19:29 (ZULU)
Bill Wylde thanks for your words that will save me much time and foolishness. I've been relying on the 55 gr V-max and 55 sx bullets for varmints out to around 400 or so. The groups were quite good for the junk I shoot but when the range gets long they fall apart. Not that .223 is a picnic with any bullet at long range. Bill your sure right about the Barrels I guess. I've had a s??? load of AR-s and only 1 or 2 good barrels. I say barrels cause there wasn't any other explanation. One was a POS e-bay barrel I thought when I bought it.
Guys; You might want to get to know Bob. He knows far too much about
the Situation over in the PHillipines to be a snoop from Gun control.
Seems like one of the good guys to me. I think he knows things are
a bit flaky over here about the Gun Control and understands. They have
had their times over there too. But I'm thinking it was just an unfortunate
thang there that caught him. Remember when I flamed a guy that said something
that led me to believe he was gun control advocate and he turned out to
be a jesting varmint hunter.
I don't blame any one. This is a sorry time for America's riflemen.
By the way... For anyones information that gives a rats ass. If you see
a post without my name on it. It isn't me! One of my rules. I admit that
the flamer sounded like me but it wasn't. That's just about how paranoid
I am on the subject! I got some e-mail of inquiry and I don't blame them
but not this time.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 00:20:31 (ZULU)
Will...
There is a sorta' convention... it's down in West Virginia (where the men are men, and the sheep are happy), on Oct 2nd and 3rd...
Bring a gun and other stuff... a lot of regulars on this site will be there.
Pablito
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 00:23:04 (ZULU)
Bolt,
Sorry I took so long to answer; but redoing my den and building a bar is about to do me in. I sold a fair amount of .308 and .30-06 Failsafe last fall. The only complaint was lack of expansion on whitetails. The guy who squawked was using CXP3 stuff which is for thick-skinned game. He punched nice neat .308 holes through five different deer before he figured out that something wasn't cricket. The stuff does work as advertised if you use it on the proper game. As far as accuracy, it's not bad at normal hunting ranges here in Missouri. Didn't have a chance to try it out at long range.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 01:06:31 (ZULU)
To Bill Wylde;
I too bought some of the first lot of Hornaday 22 cal 75 gr HPBT and they were accurate when they got to the target but my problem with them was they were blowing up about 25 yds downrange but I just blamed the jackets for being too thin as I was driving them at 3700+ fps out of a 1 in 9" twist 30" barreled 22 CHeetah so I gave up on them but the ones that made the target were accurate. Back to my 69 gr Sierras. I then bought some of the first lot of Hornaday 75 gr A-Max and they shoot great and no blowups. They hold the wind much better than the Sierras and they shoot much flatter but now I am worried after reading your post that the next lot I buy of them will not be as good. When did you buy that lot of 75 gr A-Max's?? Do you have a lot# for them?? After using these bullets I would hate to give them up as they are the best bullet I have found for this cal and I am going to Wyo. the 27th of May and when I return my supply of these will be exhausted and I will have to reorder but if they will not shoot sub 1/2" it will be back to the Sierras.
Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 01:38:31 (ZULU)
All,
Does anyone know of a civilian source for "fireflies", the little clear plastic cubes that snap onto the top of a 9v and are used for ITG? Saw them a few years ago in a spec ops conference, but haven't seen them anywhere since then. Am interested in the white light types, not the IR ones.
Also, does anyone have any experience with Fiocchi or Sellier & Bellot ammunition? Have considered purchasing some from Dirt Cheap, but have no idea at all about the reliability.
To the folks who make SC what it is, the shirt and T-shirt I ordered
are first class pieces of gear!
Jon Custis
<jacustis@aol.com>
Orlando, FL, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 01:41:37 (ZULU)
All,
Does anyone know of a civilian source for "fireflies", the little clear plastic cubes that snap onto the top of a 9v and are used for ITG? Saw them a few years ago in a spec ops conference, but haven't seen them anywhere since then. Am interested in the white light types, not the IR ones.
Also, does anyone have any experience with Fiocchi or Sellier & Bellot ammunition? Have considered purchasing some from Dirt Cheap, but have no idea at all about the reliability.
To the folks who make SC what it is, the shirt and T-shirt I ordered
are first class pieces of gear!
Jon Custis
<jacustis@aol.com>
Orlando, FL, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 01:42:16 (ZULU)
Jon,
I have used Sellier & Bellot 6.5*55 Swedish ammo. It was cheap and reliable. I would put it in the military ball class of ammo, not match grade but decent within its limits.
Matt Back
Australia - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 02:44:25 (ZULU)
1: The two turds who flamed me for my "employees" problems. Try using your own email address so I can respond back in an appropriate manner. Do you always hide behind the public library computer system?
I know what state you sent it from, I can guess who you are. Show up at my playground sometime so we can talk.
2: I am seeing alot of talk here about who is coming to SMTC for
the Hathcock Memorial shoot. I dont see very many entry forms coming in
from you guys. The event is almost full. If you want a slot, get off your
butts and get squared away. Those that are talking, talk is cheap. Those
that have steped up to the plate, thank you for supporting this event.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 02:45:16 (ZULU)
I remember an article on Scope ring lapping somewhere, does anyone have it, or can someone elaborate on the procedure? Do I need to lap both the bottom and top?
Thanks in advance
Tyson <hijumpr@aol.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 03:39:04 (ZULU)
Now ya went and did it...
SWFA has the Tasco SS series of scopes at some outstanding prices. I just placed a 10x42 on order today. They will be shipping late June/early July.
Who has the best prices on the Badger Ord. rings? Brownell's has them at $150.00 plus 6 or 7 bucks UPS.
Next will be a Brookfield mount for my M1A. I'm sick of f$#*ing with that mount from Springfield.
Just thought I would vent a little and let you all know about the sale at SWFA...
Spud
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, ca, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 06:05:50 (ZULU)
If anyone was curious as to who flamed Mr.Feliciano, it was me,
unjustifiably and without intentional provocation. I don't want anyone takin punches due me ok?
I'll take my thumps and offer my apologies to everyone at the same time, especially Mr. Feliciano. So, Robert, I sincerely, and publically apologize for making such a lambastful statement of your intentions.
Gooch you are right about the paranoia, but its not completely unfounded. However, I realize this isn't the place to voice my opinion on that subject.
I just dread the day when they come and pry my Great-Grandfathers hunting rifle out of my hands, and with the current goings on, it will happen eventually.
Finally, I will defend my stance on the content of these types of posts. We all know the VPC and media pop a chub for this kinda stuff.
Ya'll leave B.Rogers alone. You can flame the addy below..
BruceH <bruceh@ionet.net>
One Oklahoma redneck feelin pretty, STUPID in the, USA - Tuesday, May
11, 1999 at 06:16:27 (ZULU)
Some of you have asked about products not listed on the PX. IF you would like to order an Eagle Industries, Olympic Arms or HS Precision product that is not listed here on the PX, please contact me at xring@voicenet.com for pricing. The PX is an official retailer for these companies. I can order any item you desire from their catalog excepting lower receivers, receivers and firearms. In every case the PX price will be less than you would pay direct from the manufacturer.
Thanks all!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 11:29:32 (ZULU)
Trigger, have found a set of PEWS for sale. Thought it might be good for camping out in bear country. Don't know what it's worth, any idea on value? Also Trigger, have you had experience with the various surplus Military comm equipment such as field phones, SAR radios, Pilot survival radios, etc. for sale? Is it worth buying and converting the frequencies?
Doc, thanks for the info on Failsafe. Your customer's results differ greatly from the article written in Shooting Times. They indicate that this problem was supposed to have been taken care of with the improved Failsafes. Trying to stay on the long range subject, what in your opinion is the best factory ammo for deer with a 270 and 7mag at 250-400 yards?
Rod, check is in the mail!
Spud, contact Premier Reticles for your Badgers. Best price I have found at about $125 with shipping. Real helpful guys that work there also. They also have good prices on Leupold stuff.
Tyson, I am "the Man" on lapping. I have the Popeye arms to prove
it. Lapped eleven sets of rings in a record time of damn near a week. Get
your lapping sets from Brownells, mix a little valve grinding compound
in with the factory stuff, take a five gallon bucket of vitamins, call
a massage therapist and a cheer leading squad, and get with it. Right Pablito???
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 12:00:02 (ZULU)
I'm interested in Mike's tactical sling and I'm wondering if it will work for left handed shooters. If any of you are left handed and tried his sling, let me know your impressions.
Thanks
Sandy <shiftysand@aol.com>
KY, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 12:09:58 (ZULU)
Jerry R.,
The 75 A-max bullets came to me from Hornady for test. The box states that the contents are .457 lead balls. I doubt any lot numbers from that box would help.
My statement on that bullet was from this lot. You might never experience any lot-to-lot problems with that bullet.
Please don't think that I am anti Hornady. This machine rest testing business is pretty hard-core stuff. When I say that a bullet is not too consistent, it doesn't mean it is all bad.
I have friends down from Canada. We are MR testing 80 Berger's vs
80
Sierra's today. It should be interesting.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
WARM - SE, IL, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 12:10:15 (ZULU)
Bolt,
Not sure about the value of a PEWS. The major driving force for me is are batteries available and what kind do they use. Military systems of that era frequently use special batteries that may not be available outside the military. If i remember right, the sensors used D cells, no problem, but the reciever unit used a lithium or nickel cad battery. Something else, the PEWS was engineered with discriminators that filter out animal movement. We did a bit of testing on the penetration of sensors and NVDs at one time. Easy to get through the PEWS, but you have to know it's there. The random movement of an animal 95% of the time WILL NOT trip the sensor.
The pilots radios, the PRC99 and PRC117 both use specialized batteries.
The 99 is crap. The 117 is great but uses a lithium battery. I have my
117 from my last unit and a stock of lithiums, but dont' know what i'll
do when they run out. Shelf life is 8 years. The 117 has the standard emergency
frequencies and two programmable freqs, but that takes the special software
to load the freqs. I'd say a good motorola (Saber) if you have the money,
if not, the new Walkabouts are pretty good. Can't beat a Motorola Saber
though. Very good radios. Hope this helps a bit. Dean
trigger50
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 13:56:30 (ZULU)
Jeff A,
I had a chance to get out this week end and do some really long range shooting with the 260. I shot at 800 and 900 yards I couldn't quite make a 1000 where I was at so I had to settle for 900. I was mainly interested in getting my dials set up out to 1000. So far the JBM ballistic program has been right on to with in a half of a MOA. It sure saves me a lot of ammo. I was very happy with the 142s and Hornadys "NEW" Amaxs. The 142s printed a 3 shot group at 900 that measured a shade over 3.5 inches and the Hornadys printed a tad over 3.25 at 800 yards. Now for the good part, this was shot with my new, stock Remington 700 VLS!!! Not the custom built one. I couldn't get it to hit the target at 900 yards I was using the same dials and it was hitting a few feet in front of the target!!! I can only get 34 MOA out of the scope and with the other stock 260 I am on at 900 with 31 to 32 MOAs. I have a 4.5x14 tactical on the custom 260 so I don't know if this is part of it or what, but I figured 34 MOA is 34 MOA no matter what its on!! I will do more testing and let you know what I find.( PS those were the best groups but all groups stayed under 1 MOA and most of the time at around .7 to .6 MOA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 14:04:19 (ZULU)
Regarding Mike's sling...it works fine from the left, and the right. Are there slings that don't?
Old Dog
Bruce
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 14:23:46 (ZULU)
Trigger, thanks for the poop. I just bought a pair of RT159B/UR rescue radios from and guy in Canada for $50 plus shipping on auction. I will give the guy a shout that has the PEWS and see about the battery situation.
You're probably correct on the Motorola stuff. Hard to beat. Been
carrying Motorola construction heavy duty radios for 20 years. They work
even after a two story fall from a scaffol!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 14:25:46 (ZULU)
Sandy, yes, the sling will work for lefties. I got the Black and OD in stock and am working on the other color options. The sling works just like the military sling you mihgt have seen used at a high power match, only with a lot more options of deployment. I am a lefty an love mine.
ARs: I'd have to totally agree with Bill Wylde. The barrel and the barrel alone makes the AR sing. All else is more or less fluff. That is an over simplification, but I have seen ARs shoot well from many sources. Some had floppy receivers, some had ugly finished and crappy receivers. But with a good barrel, they all shot well. One of the reasons I chose to offer Olympic stuff on the PX was because of the excellent experience I had with their barrels. I never had a bad one, and liked the fact that they will replace a questionable one until you are satisfied. Not many folks will do that.
When you consider an AR project, you really have to think hard about your intended use. If long range is the goal, go with an unlined tube of heavy weight. Spend the cash for a good one. The barrels you get from most kit suppliers are not top of the line and the kit price reflects this. Don't expect your chrome lined 16" heavy barrel to shoot moa or better at 500 plus! you have to have reasonable expectations and be willing to purchase the barrel you really want. Also do not expect a straight taper SS barrel form a mass production facility to perform equally to a Kreiger, Hart, or even an Olympic.
My own experience has been that buying a kit with a no-name barrel will never get you better than 1.2 moa @ 100 yards. Sometimes a lot worse. Inconsistently better results can be had with these so called H-Bar tubes, but nothing you'd write home about. They'll hint at accurate, but fal through quickly.
If you just want a plinker any tube will do. Chrome lined is fine as you are going to beat the tube anyway. Top accuracy is not needed at short range and you needn't pay for it. Get a shorty and don't sweat the larger groups. But don't expect mroe than you are willing to pay for. golden rule of shooting. You gets what you pay for!
If you have to have accuracy and a short package, get a straight taper short barrel, preferably SS or unlined chrome moly. Avoid Bargin barrels. You'll never be happy with them.
Like Bill said, barrels are everything. Color matching, gap between receivers, hard or soft anodyzing, all of it is secondary to a good tube. You'll see NM stamped on a lot of shit. It don't matter a bit. Get what you NEED and what fits your budget. Lot of folks offer chromed this or that. A bolt carrier might be easier to clean in chrome, but it won't make the rifle shoot better.
not sure whre this is going, but I wanted to get in on the conversation
as I jsut do not get to visit the roster much anymore!!!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 14:59:07 (ZULU)
caveat lector. thought it was funny, nonetheless.
This is an extract of an National Public Radio (NPR) interview between
a female broadcaster and US Army Lieutenant General Reinwald about
sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop on his military installation.
Interviewer: "So, LTG Reinwald, what are you going to do with these
young boys on their adventure holiday?"
LTG Reinwald: "We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery,
and shooting."
Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"
LTG Reinwald: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on
the
range."
Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous
activity to be teaching children?"
LTG Reinwald: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range
discipline before they even touch a firearm."
Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."
LTG Reinwald: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"
End of the interview
I saw the humor in it.
BruceH
BruceH <bruceh@ionet.net>
Right here in, Oklahoma, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 15:19:50 (ZULU)
Slings: Guys I got my camo nylon in and it is crap! Only one side is camo. For Stephen M. I will send you the camo one you ordered and an OD one for no extra charge, with the black one also. For the rest of you Do Not Order Camo. It is OD on one side and camo on the other and looks stupid. I took it in the shorts on that purchase.
I have finished the Leupold M1 Tactical Scope Review and sent it to Scott for approval.
The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 15:28:22 (ZULU)
First of all - Any information, opinions, statements, etc. posted by myself on this thing is my opinion and has nothing to do with Storm Mountain Training Center or its parent corporation.
Secondly - Some testiculary challenged semen-stained gerble herder emailed my employer about comments I've made on here. Obviously you are a cross-dressing liberal eunich since you didn't give a valid return email address so I could address you in a... more personal manner. (I am controlling my language and my temper for the good of this site by the way.)
Think about this real good... I am not a poser and I am not a wanna be. Don't screw with my personal life. This is not a threat.
Sorry for the temper of this post SC staff but this is bullshit. Someone made a post from a public library computer in Illinois. Hmm, who lives in Illinois?
No comments from the rest of you guys please. Thanks.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 16:12:13 (ZULU)
Jon,
You asked for a source for the 9 volt "fireflies". The only places I have seen them were specialty catalogs and the price was far too high (30 or 40 bucks) to be worth it. This was a few years ago and although I dont remember the name of the catalog, heres an idea that may work. Go to your local public or college library, Borders or Barnes and Noble bookstore and go dig thru the electronics or engineering/science section. There are many books for beginners in electronics that will show you basic circuit that will work to design and build your own for FAR cheapers than they would cost to purchase. This assumes, of course, that you are handy with small parts and a soldering iron. I may be able to get the information (exact parts list and circuits used) and post it here some time this week or next. Some of basic parts that might be needed could be:
1. A 9 volt battery connecter (plug in)
2. A couple of resistors
3. A couple of capacitors
4. Some small wire (one to two feet)
5. A Small piece of perforated circuit board (nice but not a must have.)
6. A couple of LEDs (light emitting diodes) These can be purchased in many visible light colors as well as in the infrared range.
7. Two or three 35mm film canisters, and at least one lid. These are two be used as the body/shell of the device.
8. Soldering iron and solder.
9. Hot glue gun
10. Duct tape.
I don't have the time or needed references to go into it in this posting but if there is enough interest, I will do the leg work in the electronics lab here at college to get a parts list and basic plan together. Who is interested??? (I know this may not seem relavant the duty roster but if this adds a useful tool to someones kitbag then I've done my job.)
On another topic, if you have not already read my earlier posting, scroll upwards and read my post yesterday about ballistics testing. I expected my mailbox to be jammed full today when I opened it and I have only had one response so far (you know who you are - thanks!). I certainly hope the reason is that people are taking the time to really rack their brains to come up with good questions and comments and not because they dont really care. Come on people, I'm trying to do something on my own time that will benefit those who have to work as snipers as a part of their profession. Even if you dont think your two cents is worth it or that you are just civilian shooter sent me your ideas, questions and comments, everything is of some use!! Please help me to help the community as a whole.
Thanks,
CCaspers
CCaspers <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 16:40:21 (ZULU)
Oh yeah, one addition to my last post (ARs). There is one other item that seemed to improve accuracy immediately upon installation. A free float tube. I am not sure I can claim it was "resposible" for the increase in accruacy, but it certain did allow the barrel to do its thing with out intervention from my hand, a sling, or a bench rest.
>>>>>>>
Next topic: I have not been able to ride herd over the Roster for about a month. Maybe even longer. I’ve lost track of the time. In short, the Roster has been on auto pilot outside of Marius' archiving efforts. I am sad to see that some of the crap that has happened in the past is still happening. Due to this, I am going to urge the other members of the site to consider the following policy: Unless a valid return email address is placed in the e-mail field, the post will not be accepted. Period. This is not going to be popular. I understand your complaints so please save them. I have heard them all. We are all adults of strong opinion. If we are not adults, "we" do not belong here. The opinions that appear here may vary greatly. It is not too much to ask that each of us find a way to express these opinions in a civil manner and have the balls to post who we are when we say them. If you worry about "big brother" or job security, then simply read the roster and reserve your commentaries to private emails. The Roster is provided as a service for our readers. I will not allow it to continuously be dragged down into infighting by anonymous posters. You want to post here, you place a real email address with the comments. CB Handles are for kids and BS addresses are not going to be accepted any longer as it gives those with yellow spines a way to slam dunk our good readers with out the risk of reply and public humiliation. Let’s face it, we are not kids. Right or wrong, we should be able to stand by our comments. Taking a little flak over a misspoken comment is a small price to pay for the free exchange of information. If you fear the government and have therefore kept your name and address false, get a life! "They" can figure out who you are if they want to. Once you log in, you are no longer anonymous. So you can give up any pretenses of anonymity. Welcome to the computer age where no man or woman is an island. You want to comment here, you provide a solid and honest return address.
If you are a cop, I understand not using your real name, but I would still require a valid return address. These hit and run posts will stop. Or the Roster will stop.
Feel free to argue about the benefits or negatives of any product, firearm, or technique that you choose to champion or defame, but have the cahoonas (or the female equivalent) to take credit for your words.
That is All.
Scott Powers
PS: Gooch is a rock unto his own. He is neither affiliated or associated with Sniper Country. On the other hand he has a life time of experience doing the deed and is welcome to post here any time the mood hits. You can agree or argue with him at you leisure, but keep this roster civil. Same goes for any others who have strong and arguably valid opinions. Feel free to express. But keep it civil. The direction of the roster is only driven by what you the readers want to discuss with in the parameters of the site.
Carry on. All this "official" talk is killing me, a professed wise ass.
scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 18:44:05 (ZULU)
Scott and Gooch,,
Well said, I was a part of that slinging at one time. I'm back because
I enjoy this site and the comments on it... I support you guys position
110%. Take care.
Trigger50 <DMicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 18:58:37 (ZULU)
Scott,
Go for it! This "Road Rage" on the info highway needs to be stopped.
The lack sneak attacks, blind siding, and e amil ambushes are one of the
things that keep me spellbound on Sniper Country.
I don't know a lot 'bout nothing, and have learned more about precision
long range shooting in one year or so of lurking and posting than I thought
possible.
On a side note, I'm still just as excited/thrilled with the Carlos Memorial Match as when it first got posted. If everyone thats said they were going to be there (Ewe too, Al O.!) indeed shows up, its gonna rock! My learning curve will certainly be on overload.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cItY, bY-gAwD, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 19:00:44 (ZULU)
For those looking, there is a Mark 4, M3 10x40 mildot at auction on EBAY. Current high bid is $560. Search under "Leupold". Bid closes at 21:00 pst.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 20:29:03 (ZULU)
Bolt...
Right!, and I'm sending you three more sets... wouldn't want you to get out of shape just shooting...
Was that check to Rod for a course... or for Carlos??
If for the latter, you got a greasy Ol' Bacon Cheese Burger coming,
Dude!
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 21:45:10 (ZULU)
Hello all. If you folks might humor me for a moment.
I am looking at a move due to work. Could I get some info on shooting facilities in or around Memphis, Tenn.? Public or private. Thanks for the info.
Still the best quasi-offensive joke I've heard this year:
Q. What's gonna be great about our first woman president?
A. We won't have to pay her near as much.
All yawl take care.
Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, herewegoagainegon, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 22:41:06
(ZULU)
Mike: Do you make your sling in the color robin egg baby blue to match Kent Gooch's high heel pumps? Must be in fashion at the Carlos Shoot.
Speaking of Carlos Shoot, peteR: 2+2=4 would be a trememdous learning curve for you. Retarded Rotweiler, huh? You're going to owe me a prime steak dinner when I'm through with you. Care to take the chance of stumbling and bumbling home with chewed up ankles. Woof-Woof. GGGGRRRRRRRR!!!!!
Today, I had a chanve to play around with some more handloads. For some reason, my rifle hates the Hornady 178 Match bullets. Best group size with about 1.75 inches using Varget (43.0). Now with the 175 Sierra MK bullets with the same primer and powder I was able to get the a consistent .75 grouping with these loads. No matter what loads I have tried to develop, the 168 grain Federal Match bullets still shoot the best. Right at around .5 inch consistently. Sometimes I feel like I just spinning my wheels. One load which I do NNNOOOTTT recommend is IMR 4064, shooting the 175 Sierra MK loaded to 43.0 grains. Got sprayed with debris, bolt was VERY difficult to open, primer pocket expanded, primer blew out, and left a very bright extractor mark on the brass. All those 50 rounds are going to be dismantled. Like, Right NOW! Extremely high pressure. I'm just wondering whether a tight match chamber could have that effect. I highly doubt. Varget Still rules the roost as far as handload go here for 175 grain Sierra MKs and 45.0 grains of Varget.
Thought I'd share this with the readers of the Duty Roster.
al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Ankle Nippin' in the Canine State of , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, May 11,
1999 at 22:53:56 (ZULU)
Al,
Did you try loading the Sierra bullets so that the "pointy" end was out of the case? ;-)
Guys, there is a sage lesson from the Ohier Fly-boy on handloads and receipes. If you have anything out of the normal, start low and CAREFULLY work up. Like a tight chamber............
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 23:23:03 (ZULU)
To BillB RE: Maynard (big load)
Bill, as near as I can tell, it would take a moving van full of black powder to do the kind of damage we are talking about here. I can't for the life of me figure out how they used to put that much powder in such a little case. I think Hornady may have rediscovered the secret with their (Light Magnum) ammo line, but last I heard, they are keeping pretty quiet about it. A very long drop tube might be worth a try. I hope this helps.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 23:25:32 (ZULU)
peteR: About pointy end of bullets. I just compared the pointy end of the bullet with the photo I have of your head. Seems to work for me.
It doesn't happen very often, but I'll have to agree with peteR. Start low and work your way up. Pressures were not present with 42.3 grains of 4064, but 43.0 grains did and also the fact that it was fairly warm outside today didn't help either. Anyway after years of reloading, there is always something to learn.
See that everybody, I insult people and use my real name. But then again peteR is just soooo easy!!
al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Rebuttal City, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 23:36:04 (ZULU)
Scott; Your absolutely right and I believe we all owe it to ourselves to elevate the site especially in view of the recent politics. The Word Sniper is possibly in for some hard times. IT's gonna get worse before it gets better. I've been there and done that all except for the anonomous posts. Here's to better times!
Pat; That thing is working it sounds to me like. I've got to have a .260. My 4.5X14's are the best scopes I have for vertical range. Both have lots of elevation and the resetability on movement on each click is flawless. I am most impressed with those groups.
Al; I haven't a clue man! That is pretty intense for just a tight chamber. I had one like that when I misread my powder scale a loaded 10 grains too much 4320. The mushroom cloud was seen on a planet far away. God Bless John Browning! I survived!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 00:00:46 (ZULU)
MikeM: Who sent you the one sided camo nylon? hahaha Can you sew two strips together, so that it is entirely camo'd? hahaha Having talked with Mike more than once, it would have been fun to be a fly on the wall when that package got opened. Anyway, feel free to make the AR sling out of that one sided camo...I will give it to my hunting buddy that likes to smoke while trying to call the coyotes in:)
Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 01:19:29 (ZULU)
Matt Black is dead.
Born: couple of weeks ago in the site dialogue about painting stocks as I have a matt black stock.
Died: Because he wanted to be disassociated from any other nick-names
as some have apparently hidden behind ungentlemanly posts.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Australia - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 01:31:11 (ZULU)
I own a H-S precision build remington 700 .308cal equiped with their stainless steel heavy match barrel.Action is trued and squared, triggerguard and floorplate is made of steel. The rifle is steelbedded with aluminum pillars in a Robar SR90 stock with adgustable l.o.p. and cheekpeice.It shoots .400-.650 m.o.a. on average depending on weather conditions. Because of a magazine feeding problem it was sent back to Robar for repair.Since I got the rifle back the magazine feeding problem is now a thing of the past. It functions and shoots perfect.My question is:The action had to be separated from the stock and re installed in order for the repair to take place. Does this affect the bedding somehow? And what material is used by Robar when steelbedding? How can one tell by visual inspection if locking lugs are lapped? How would you rate this rifle?
P.S It is topped with a leupold mark 4 10x
thank you in advance.
John 5
New York, NY, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 03:13:53 (ZULU)
Pat III: I generally stay out the litany and the tirade that sometimes are present on the Duty Roster, but in your case I will have to take exception. Darrell West is a friend of not only me but of my entire family. It is very easy for someone to make critical comments of another when he does not have access to a computer. Darrell and I have met Kent Gooch and Rod Ryan and found them to be very personalable and extremely knowledgeable. This evening I received a call from Darrell asking me to see what was written about him, and frankly, I do not believe for one second, that Darrell would would make this type of comment about Kent. If that is the way you want to conduct yourself, your credibility has just gone to hell in handbasket with me and I'm sure with some of the other regulars on this site. Many of us know Darrell and always welcome his commentary.
Get your act together and help make this site informative and entertaining and avoid making this site your own little "Peyton Place."
al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
On a Serious Note in , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 03:30:46
(ZULU)
Scott, question for you (or anyone else for that matter).
I'm a fellow lefty and have shot mostly right handed bolt-actions. Now that I'm finally ready (read: $$) to buy my dream .308 I'm wondering if there are any downsides (tactically) to shooting it off hand. I'm especially interested in if it will impede any training I might persue. (i.e. Storm Mtn., Gunsite, et all)
Thanks in advance for all the great info everyone, you are appreciated. I'll try not to lurk for another 6mo.
Bhancock <Ghent@msn.com>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 04:19:10 (ZULU)
Bahncock: Believe me, it'll only make you a better shot. Trigger control, sight picture, sight alignment (open AND scope sights), breath control, cheek weld, holding the monster steady, body alignment, as well as other essentials that I've forgotten is what you will learn. If you have the patience to learn these, you will be amazed at how well you shoot from a rest.
I'd like to think that the Corps taught me well.
Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, ca, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 06:03:46 (ZULU)
Dennis: Thanks for the quick response.
Let me rephrase my question: When I say I am shooting "off-hand"
I mean that I am still shooting with my left, while using a right handed
action.
I know this sounds kind of "funky" but I've found that when working
from a rest, I can operate the action without changing my shooting grip.
I'm just wondering if this will be a problem (tacticaly) down the line.
The only pain in the a** is opeating the action while standing (i.e.
snap-shooting), as I have to move my right hand from the fore-stock back
to the action. You'd probably laugh if you saw how I do it.
B Hancock <ghent@msn.com>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 09:50:21 (ZULU)
Mr. Hancock,
You make an interesting point. As a special forces sniper instructor we periodically switched shooters from right to left hand because of cross eye dominance. Part of the course was also national match position shooting that meant lefties with a sling attached in the sitting or prone position had to reach over their scope to work the bolt, a couple reached under the gun to do it. Their advantage later was when the gun was ona bipod or bags, engaging snap and mover targets. Their "action" time was a bit quicker because they didn't have to reaquire the grip to shoot.
McMillan makes a special action that is left hand, right port. For a right handed shooter, the bolt is worked with the left hand, but with the port on the right side. Same theory as what you dealing with, the non-shooting hand working the bolt. Something else to try, attach a sling to the back of your Harris bipod, then attack the cuff, or back of the sling around your upper arm of you SHOOTING arm, or the same one you pull the trigger with. With the right amount of tension, this gives incredible stability to the gun, and that free hand is free to do anything else needed, work the optics, etc. The method is very good for shooting snaps and movers where the operator moves the gun around alot to pick up targets and shoot them.
Not a fan of putting a sand filled sock under the toe of the gun.
In many ways, tactically, you have an advantage on action time by not having
to move your trigger pulling hand to work the bolt. Good luck!! Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 12:21:15 (ZULU)
Gooch man; I think your reputation buys you more than you know on this site. I never met you or hardly anyone else here unfortunately.
I never met Carlo's Hathcock or Billy Dixon either but them that can do is what it is all about. The bad thing about this Media is you can't see the man's expression or body language thus it's easy to draw the wrong conclusions about each other. When it gets right down to it we either can do or wish we could. Anyone else here don't matter. We all have things we are passionate about and go off on once in a while. Be better we didn't but it's gonna happen. I hope we all share a common goal in our pursuits of Art for the sake of Freedom Right & Decency's sake. Goat pictures and cross dressers aside of course. Nobody's perfect Al!
B.rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 12:33:15 (ZULU)
Stupid Human Tricks:
So I'm at the range, a week or so ago, and I was standing around between shots (letting the bbl cool off), wearing my shooting jacket. This other guy who was shooting comes up to me and says, "what kind of jacket is that?" I thought he was joking at first so I just smiled, but he repeated the question. "A shooting jacket." He looked it over carefully and said, "I've never seen a jacket like that before." (keep in mind the guy was about 45.) So about 10 minutes later I was putting the sling on my arm and getting in tight and he comes up again. "What are you doing with that sling?" "Putting it on my arm..." "Why?" "Because it gives you extra support for a nice tight & steady hold." "Hmmmmmmm, I've never seen that done before." So I said, "well I guess you've never been in the military." He said that actually he had. I didn't ask the details at that point.
Obviously, he was not a Marine, since EVERY Marine, even the women learns to shoot with a rifle and sling and is expected to do so with skill at regular intervals (when I was active, even the air-wingers were under heavy peer pressure to shoot Expert). Every retired serviceman I know (I know some from each service), knows what a sling on the arm is for, even if they don't do it themselves (even the Air Force guys). Pardon my increadulous ignorance, but are there actualy people in our military who are never trained how to use a rifle properly, or may have never even SEEN a sling on the arm? Do some services, say, not bother to train maybe their cooks, or something? I'm serious. I would be interested to know if that's true?
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 12:39:42 (ZULU)
Bill, Al,
I agree totally with what you said. I dont know D.West but from his posts he doesn't appear to be the kind of guy who would bad mouth anyone, esp Gooch. I have met Gooch and he's a damn fine fellow and someone I am proud to call a friend. Last year he didn't know me from a sack of apples and when I started asking all kinds of questions on tactical shooting he was kind enough to send me his phone number so I could call him and he took the time to really go into detail on all of my questions. Another gentleman named Jim Craig, who no longer posts much, but is just like Gooch, salt of the earth and been there done that and more than willing to help you out. I hope when I get back to Wyoming this year Jim will be there again. These are the kind of guys who make this sight what it is as far as I am concerned. I don't know what was said to Rod but from what I can tell about him he's smart enough to figure out what is what and I am sure he knows what a great asset Gooch will be to SM. I hate to see someone attack anyone at his personal life and I probably wouldn't have been near as polite about it as Gooch was. We don't have to agree with one another and more than often we don't but these personal attacks have to stop before it destroys the sight. Were all very opionionated and that makes for some very interesting and informative discussions but just because someone else has a different idea or disagrees with us doesn't mean that either of us is wrong. It is hard to always read it the way it was ment so lets give each other a break.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 13:32:50 (ZULU)
Bruce, when I started cutting the one sided camo(which before unrolling I thought was on both side) the fly on the wall turned red and flew away holding his ears.
Al, actually the new hot caliber in the San Francisco Bay Area is a rainbow mix. But I can't understand why they want studs on the slings, can you tell me? LOL
Actually I am thinking of just making slings in Brown, Black, or OD and you guys can paint them. What do you guys think?
Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 14:41:52 (ZULU)
Al O
Al, I agree with you 100% about Darrell West. I have gone shooting with him here in Illinois when no one else from the Roster was around, I aso exchange e-mail with him and I have only heard him say good things about Gooch. Darrell is not the type to talk behind someones back. Maybe Darrell said something and it was misunderstood.
Bob ( previously Kodiak ) <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 15:48:24 (ZULU)
Bedded versus Unbedded versus Aluminum Bedding Blocks: Guys I just sealed a deal with both HS and McMillan to test two stocks and two rifles. I will test a McBros built 700 in a HS Stock and then in both a Bedded and NonBedded McMillan stock. I will also test a HS bulit 700 in the same way. I will shoot sniper style and across the course. I will put about 1000 rounds through each and record the results. When this is all done it should make interesting reading. I can not wait to see the results and see if any true difference exsists. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 16:00:20 (ZULU)
Mike (Un-Dude)
A MAJOR Duuuuuuuuuude to you !
MOST EXCELLANT!
THIS KIND OF TEST and DATA SHARING IS WHAT MAKES THIS SITE TOTALLY ROCK!
The published periodicals can't even touch this stuff!
AGAIN,
MOST EXCELLANT!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
IN AWE CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 16:40:42 (ZULU)
Mike the unDude, to make this a truely unbiased scientific test you know you'll have to be blindfolded so you can't see which one you're shooting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 18:06:18 (ZULU)
Gentlemen:
As you read this post, J.L. Darling (makers of Rite-in-the-Rain paper) are completing the printing of T.R.G.T.'s Sniper Data Book. It is made of Mil-Spec materials, is printed 20 lb. bond, tactical green "Rite-in-the-Rain" paper, and has a cover made of polydura plastic with black metal spiral ring (a limited number of books will be available in 3-ring configuration). The book has 128 leaves, or 256 pages, and is double the size of most competitors' books. There are 14 pages of formulas, conversion tables, and charts on range estimation, wind, moving targets, and angle fire. The book has data sheets for zero summaries, cold bore shots, zeroes, bullseye, stationary, unknown distance, and moving targets. We include various mission sheets and a barrel log as well. Though the data sheets can be used for any caliber rifle, the information sheets are geared primarily toward 7.62 mm NATO/.308 Win. rifles. We are accepting orders now for shipment the week of May 17, 1999.
To view an image of the book, go to:
http://www.trgt.com/page2.htm#DATAGEAR
Operations Partner <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 18:11:32 (ZULU)
Andre,
I'm afraid I can't give you any current dope on U.S. military small arms training as I was in from 1961 to 1966; but the only training I received as a Naval Aviation Cadet was the manual of arms and how to field strip and clean an M1 Garand. The only weapons we ever fired were two pod mounted .50's on a T-28 during aerial gunnery training. I learned sling use and position shooting in high school ROTC my freshman year. The only weapons in my first transport squadron were a handful of M1 carbines that the troops carried while on sentry duty in Morocco. Whenever we carried a courier on one of our flights, he was required to hand over his weapon to the pilots. Invariably it was a brand new Ensign(read that Nugget or Butter Bar) who had a 1911A1 Colt .45. I would field strip it and hand them a sack full of parts at the end of the flight. Not one of them had any idea how to re-assemble it. One kid damned near cried because he thought I had "broken his gun". After I put it back together I always told them to get a revolver next time and never take a weapon unless they were qualified to fire it. I would like to think it's different today; but I sure wouldn't bet any money on it.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The wet Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 19:27:38 (ZULU)
Doc,
Thanks, that's pretty interesting and amusing. Another former Marine buddy of mine field stripped a Garand in a gun store once. The clerk probably looked about how that butter bar looked. He had NO IDEA how to put that rifle back together, or how to explain to his boss that he had allowed a customer to take it apart! He was allowed to sweat awhile, then it was reassembled for him.
I remain amazed that any military people, whatever the service, may actualy be ignorant of the basic US weaponry, but I suspect that it may often be the case.
Interesting.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 20:11:01 (ZULU)
To our visitors,
The purpose of this site is to disseminate information about shooting in general, and sniping/tactical shooting in particular - hence the name. Even though we support the principle of freedom of speech, the purpose of this site is NOT to allow anybody to post anything that will do damage to this cause we've set out to enhance.
In light of this, we have decided that, from this post onwards the email address will be a mandatory field when posting to the Duty Roster. This measure has become necessary since some people come onto here and post stuff that does not belong here, neither does our image and cause any good - on the contrary.
We hope this is not too big an inconvenience and that you will still enjoy the sharing of information for which we are here, and famous. If anybody has any problem with this they are free to contact me, or any of the other members of the site as listed above.
Good shooting.
Marius
Now if I can just get the spell-checker going :-)
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 20:25:45 (ZULU)
Mods,Smods, and "The Guys",
I appriciate the manditory Email add-on.
Would appriciate a manditory spell-chequer a lot more though...
keep up the great work...
Gooch,
Never met you, but would vote for you.
Scott,
1)Take credit cards for the hats and shirts?
2)Could you create a book of al o and peteR's snippets?
It should sell well... :)
buk out
Buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
< sea level, Louisiana, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 20:52:42
(ZULU)
Andre; In 1970 US Army basic training covered all aspects of the M16, 45 sidearm and shotgun (ie. field stripping, cleaning, shooting, single shot, rapid burst, full auto, safety, carry, etc, etc) I would imagine it's the same today. Everyone has to go through basic no matter what the MOS. Your posts are kind of amusing though. I've seen simialar field stripping of .45s in the gun shop. The clerk looked like he was in shock.
Tony Y <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 20:54:30 (ZULU)
Andre,
Went through boot (if you can call it that) in Navy '89.
The only weapon we shot was a BADLY (are there and good ones?)
converted .45 to .22, that held about a 8" group at 10yds.
On subs they have a couple M16s. Not too healthy putting holes
in your boat. :)
Before you ask, to repel boarders just shut the door... ;)
buk
Buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
snorkeling in, Louisiana, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 21:04:28
(ZULU)
On the military weapons training thing. Up until the "All Volunteer" Army and the end of the draft, in what the mid 70's(?), IF you came up with the appropriate justification - religious reasons where the main one - you could be classified by the Draft Board as 1-AO. These where the Conscientous Objectors. SOME of the 1-AO's where not against the military but WHERE against taking human lives. These individuals USUALLY DID come into the military (more did than didn't, and all I knew personally where in the Army) when drafted but BY LAW and REGULATION where NOT to take ANY WEAPONS TRAINING OF ANY KIND!! Most of these folks - especially during WW I, WW II, Korea and Vietnam where MEDIC'S!! So for those of you that where in any of the conflicts I listed think back - did your medic have a weapon?? If not he was probably one of the 1-AO's I'm talking about! And if he did carry a weapon, he probably became a believer in the "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" church!!!
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 21:27:06 (ZULU)
Folks-
(Perhaps I should refer to y'all as Rosterfarians...heh :)
Does anybody have a souce for the latest (1999) FM23-9 M16 Rifle Marksmanship either online or otherwise?
Thanks -
-Tom
Tom Simspon <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 21:48:31 (ZULU)
Marius:
Excellent idea about requiring email. The word "accountablility" comes to mind. I appreciate and admire the folks that are regular posters to this sight. I have been helped a bunch by their willingness to openly share info. about aspects of shooting. And, they don't let the shit slingers get to 'em. I salute you guys for that, too. A lot of the debating is really stimulating, and some of the flamming is in a good spirited nature. That's some spice that make this site so interesting. And, a lot of the "right stuff" in the debates is effervescent with educational value.
Enough from me...I thank you, gentlemen, for being who you are and being here.
Oh, Pat , I must have some of the "fly-apart" Amaxes (plural for Amax); cause they sort of go whereever they please. Or, I'm doing something bad wrong in my load testing. Can't make the 6.5's or the 6mm's shoot.
It's like I spend a bunch of time with all this prep for a handload,
and;, then, when I pull the trigger...well, PeteR from, BY GAWD, may know
this entity's name...I'll call him Major Entropy or Capt. Chaos.
Well, Maj. Max Entropy just makes my carefully crafted projectiles
go way the dickens all over the place. It's sort of a shit sandwich from
hell, hold the mayo scenario.
Oh, Well...guess it's time to up the amperage on the electroshock..the car battery I've been using is running low.
Chao...
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 23:15:56 (ZULU)
Dudes, Undudes:
What do you guys think about that MikeM?? He's a wildman!! sheesh, he scores two complete rifles, best of the best, head to head. These companies don't usually do things like this, boys and girls. Way to go Mike!!! These barrels will be fun to make, that's where the H-S has the edge, LOL!!!!! Really, I'm just glad I can be a part of this, this is like historical for the Custom gun shops. It just doesn't happen everyday.
Gooch:
Can you believe this?? ha. I remember how this started, the gooey resin debate. And look what he did with this debate. We should rile up Mike more often, he doesn't mess around, eh!!!
later
JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 23:21:36 (ZULU)
I did my AFROTC field training in 1984 at Dover AFB. The only firearms training we got was with a .38. Most of the cadets had an Engineering i.e. non-flying slot so weapons training was not an issue.
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 00:34:58 (ZULU)
Howdy fellow SC folk: Just a heads up. I placed an ad on the Emporium for M79/M203s. I got a hateful, slimy liberal tirade about my ad from one "ASWill" @aol.com. He/she/it(?) said that "This stuff is way too dangerous to be distributed", "civilians can't be trusted with these weapons" and "Remove your posting". I responded with a level-headed, fact-filled e-mail. I usually let stuff like this run off my back, but I've seen an increase in it lately, even here in this sacred forum. The anti-gun/anti-gunfolk hysteria is rising again. Will it again reach the fever-pitch it did back when? We need to beware of sappers in the wire, before it's too late. Tech talk and trading barbs is OK, but we need to be aware of who's listening, and for what purpose. Think about it....
Marc <Chopper124@aol.com>
CT, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 01:24:32 (ZULU)
André,
Yes, there are a bunch of military folk who don't know much about weapons. When I went through boot camp (Navy) the entire course of firearms instruction was 30 mins in a classroom learning how not to shoot the rangemaster then 5 shots with a 45/22LR. All six of my squadmates used the same target, so you can guess how much we learned.
Fortunatly, when I transferred to the Philippines I got on the Provisional Rifle Battalion and we had Marines teach us the M14. (a few of us who showed an interest also got to learn the M-60 and M-79).
They are now teaching the M16 in Navy bootcamp, HOWEVER it is that damn nintendo game thing without live ammo. And no slings. Makes me worry.
Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 02:25:46 (ZULU)
Geez!
I miss a few days of posts, and WWIII hit the list!
I haven't been around this roster long, but I gotta say I've been impressed w/ everyone who's helped my along in my transition from a former 0311 to someone interested in hitting things at a longer range than what I have before.
One of the first people to pop up and say a big "HI!" was Darrell, and he's been nothing but motavational about the group here. Pablito, Gooch, Scott, Jim, Steve, everyone who's contacted me directly or replied to questions have been more than helpful. B.Rogers, peteR, Pat, Al O., André, JR, Bolt, Trigger50, OldDog, Sarge, Marius, and everyone I didn't think of off the cuff, all of your input has invoked a lot of action in my gray matter. Thanks to the bunch of y'all.
Now, usually I try to stay out of flame wars, but I just gotta throw two cents in here... I really don't see Darrell making any derogatory comments about others on the list. Since he's currently offline and can't respond in person, I'll at least stick my neck out for him. D. West is a darn good ol' southern boy (I know exactly where Rockwood is!), and although we can get right with someone who needs it, more often than not we are really laid back and easy-going.
Anyway, I suppose that's more than what I should have said, but I reckon I've gotten it off my chest.
As you were.
Leslie
i.e. "Rock" (yeah, it's a nickname from both the Corps and being
a geologist, but since it's too much like a CB handle, we'll drop it and
go w/ Leslie... Okay?)
Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 02:33:50 (ZULU)
Okay I can get into this. Current military rifle marksmanship training.
USMC is still teaching all three phases of rifle marksmanship (Prep, KD and field firing) to recruits. Pvts get 3 weeks of training and by the end of boot camp have qualified on a Known Distance Course (200-500 yards) which is a modification of the NRA National Match Course and the recruit learns the use of the loop and hasty sling. After a short break the kuckle heads return to the range and get a week of field firing. After boot camp the Marines then get familiarized with the M249, LMG, M2, Mk19, AT4 at Marine Combat Training. Females get the same basic package. FATS machines are used to teach and remediate.
Once in the FMF, Marines qualify once a year on the M16A2 and with the M9 if armed with a pistol.
Special duty such as with Marine Corps Security Forces, MP's, Embassy Marines etc all have additional requirements. MCSF Marines get the most complete combat pistol, shotgun and rifle packages in the military. Training there is on line with some of the civilian schools such as Storm Mountain, Gunsite, etc.
Soldiers get about 9 rounds to zero and 40 rounds to shoot at pop up targets once a year. The Army actually has an excellent program on paper but isn't followed. Exception to this is the odd unit who has a commander who takes initiative and trains his soldiers. We used to have Rangers from Hunter come up to Parris Island and shoot the USMC courses.
Navy and Air Force take a correspondence course I think.
Good show Mike!! You must have pictures of the Presidents of those
companies with farm animals or something.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 02:40:20 (ZULU)
!@#$%!!
How could I have not mentioned Mike M the UnDude and his fabulous slings? Or Stefan? Crap, I shouldn't have started a running name list, I feel like a teacher who can't remember a student's name! Oh, well....
L8R,
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
K-town, TN, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 02:42:33 (ZULU)
VARGET DOES RULE.I use 45.0 grns on a Hornady 168 gr HPBT Moly and i get .5 moa.This is the most accurate handload i have used.I am going to try it with some 175 hpbt match.
This is a good site and some time there is some good information.
About Kent Gooch.I have also talked to him and i have been to some
matches he has run.This man is a ultimate professional and is always willing
to help any one.If have never met him or talk to him how can you judge
him.
Gooch also has my vote and is a asset to Storm mountain.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC@CIRIS.NET>
C.C., TX, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 02:57:36 (ZULU)
my 10 cents......
Darrell West in all my correspondence has been superlative to talk with! The Dudes Gentleman!
No WAY IN HELL he would do such a thing!
NO WAY!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 03:17:32 (ZULU)
The movies have perpetrated a myth of the young guns to the point that very little is known about what makes a good shooter. Aside from failing eyesight I have every reason to believe and my own experiences reveal that the more experience a shooter has the better he gets. This is not neccesarily true of physical endurance either but for the most part I'll take the older experienced shooters. Their Military status may or may not tell you something about their experience. Certainly the bars on the shoulders or the Size of the Badge or the gold in it doesn't a shooter make. There are no hard fast rules about age or time but When I was 20 I had several years of shooting under my belt and some Bench rest target experience. I had practiced handguns and shotguns and in short in my own mind I was quite good thinking there was none faster. Not only did I learn better shortly thereafter but I found that even my own ability to shoot at 50 was much superior to what it was at 20. There is about 20 minutes when you are at your prime. It is uphill and downhill from there and may not be the same 20 minutes for different weapons. I'll just say this about experience and training and such. As a quick shooting all seeing,all steady 20 year old expert. It's a damn good thing I didn't have to face myself at 50. Good news is the young ones will get better and the old ones ain't as dead as some think they are. Bad news is a little training helps but don't think 6 weeks of basic rifle is gonna make you a crack shooter. Pull out that sharp shooter badge and those seminar diploma's 20 years from now and have a good laugh! In the meantime don't let the other guy draw first!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 03:25:44 (ZULU)
Hey guys this site is beginning to suck.
Testimonials for whoever are great shows of support. But why not send them to those involved in the issue ?
This roster has become the venue for just about anything people want
to say. SniperCountry Chatroom.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 04:25:51 (ZULU)
Does anyone have experience with the Vmax .223 sabot loaded for a .308? I am concerned about accuracy of this round.
I recently read an article on it but have since lost the page. I believe they were sporting a less than 1 MOA at 100.. can't remember.
I'm also seeing that the Vmax is seperating at higher velocities..
Anyone know about how fast you can push em before this happens?
Any info would be appreciated.. Im gonna put some together as soon as I can find the sabots and loading data..
BruceH
BruceH <bruce@ionet.net>
Lawton/Ft.Sill, Oklahoma, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 05:29:09
(ZULU)
Darryl,
It's called comaraderie, and I think its as important as the info shared on here.
"We must hang together or we will hang separetely" (or something to that effect)
Take care,
Louis
Louis <friday@tconl.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 05:34:40 (ZULU)
Misspelled email..
bruceh@ionet.net
Thanks
BrucehH <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton/Ft.Sill, Oklahoma, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 05:38:39
(ZULU)
Sorry I misunderstood about the off-hand subject.
Just finished placing an order with Premier Reticle. Outstanding service.
Two of my sons graduated Air Force Boot about a year ago 3 weeks apart. They got to fire a few rounds from the '16 at (I believe) 1000 inches. Basically a FAM-Fire excercise with a LOT of stoppages. They did not have to clean 'em. Slings were not addressed and of course neither were shooting jackets. Thankfully they've learned more from me and my experience.
Take care all.
Semper Fi!
Spud
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
Merced, ca, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 06:36:02 (ZULU)
Marksmanship training:
I served in both the Army and Marine Corps. The Army taught me how to shoot an M-16, The Marine Corps taught me how to shoot what I was aiming at!
I joined the Army first and was taught very little about breathing, clear front sight posts, slings, or shooting jackets. I was in 1st Ranger Bn and our Battalion went to Paris Island to learn from the Best. unfortunatly due to Ranger School, I had to wait until I was a boot on the Island to learn these secrets.
Todd M. Reich <reich@mnv.net>
Mt Vernon, IL, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 06:36:04 (ZULU)
Hey Guys, if any of you have wanted to shoot long range and never tried I have a place for you.
I just got back from Mineral Wells, Texas where Ft. Wolters Shooting Sports Club just had their annual long range shooting seminar. For fifty dollars and about 120 rounds, we rubbed elbows with tactical shooters, Service Rifle competetors, and Palma shooters. My shooting partner and I found ourselves among a distingushed group of individuals. I had never shot at 800 yards much less a 1000 yards, but the members there coached us on wind reading and we shot at those ranges comfortably for two days. Everyone was friendly, helpful, and information passed freely. It was unique that I'm firing my Savage Tactical at 1000 yards, on my left is a M1A, and on my right is a PALMA Match rifle. Also, if anyone has ever shot at Ft. Wolters, let me say that I have a newfound respect for the wind at it effects bullet impact.
PS - Last year I said I wanted to go to Storm Mountain, now, since Gooch joined their Staff - I have to go.
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 06:55:41 (ZULU)
Air Force basic in 78 was 22LR conversions at 100yds. No slings, though weakhand barricade positions were taught. For couriers Smith&Wesson Model 15's. Shotguns for missile silo defense. I understand that the A.F. was early on qualifing the weakhand techniques for all weapons. I am much better now and can disasemble and shoot more types of guns.
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 06:57:01 (ZULU)
Hi Lads,
I'm new here so humour me what the heck is FATS & FAM-fire I'm guessing some sort of simulation for weapons,NZArmy is looking
in to virtual ranges.They will simulate range practices,wind etc and
also combat.This will be good if it is used to argment current training,however it will be bad if it takes the place of live range
practice or live field firing.I feel that it's probabliy going to replace alot of live firing, and that's a pity.
Great site .
Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 09:37:19 (ZULU)
It's not right to flame or put down anyone without justification.Having said that,the most recent incident regarding Gooch and Pat III has,in my mind,been blown out of major proportions.
Afterall were only talking about one comment and not a series of inuendos or insults.Unlike R. Taylor vs. Mike,this was a rather brief incident.
If someone has misquoted Mr. West or attributed false statements to him,that shouldn't be tolerated either.
Gooch has addressed Pat III in a posting on this Roster and I believe he has asked us to refrain from commenting on the matter.This should be the end of the discussion,providing that Mr. West would like to comment.
I believe all the individuals are full grown men and are able to fend for themselves OFF LINE if more needs to be said.
Please,let this be the last posting regarding this matter.Let's all take a little time to let our wounds heal and have a sense of closure to the matter (Damn! I sound just like Oprah!).
All the Best...
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 10:35:49 (ZULU)
Darryl...
Sorry you're bored with D.West's friends standing up for him, when he doesn't have access to a computer... but like Louis said, it's camaraderie.
Some scum scuckin', low life, spineless turd, crawled out from under
a rock and said something really poor about D. West. Since D. West is not
in the position to answer the slam, his friends are doing it for him, and
you can count me as one of those who will add a bit more of bordom to this
site...
D. West isn't the kind to talk that way about anyone, and what was
claimed is not opinion about Gooch.
I am proud to call him a friend.
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 10:50:15 (ZULU)
Weapons training in the Army is in a terrible state. You show the average private, even in the Infantry, a shooting jacket, he will be baffled. Same with a sling. The vast majority will never shoot on a KD range. Many NCO's know little on either ballistics or teaching beyond dime washer drills.
We have a weekly zero range, and the state of the shooters I see coming out of basic is depressing. Many do not know how to clear a malfunction, let alone zero an M16/M4. Theoreticaly they had to qualify to get to AIT, so I suspect the M1 pencil is still alive and well (in 89 I wore three different shirts on qual day.). PRECISION shooting does not involve match grade weapons. It is being capable of shooting to the weapons limitations, and the limits of your inherent physical skills, be it with a shotgun, pistol, assault rifle, MG or SWS. And we shortchange those in our charge by failing to teach them that most fundemental and life saving skill. SOCOM and a few line units may be the exception, but for most of the Army this is the norm. And it is worse outside of grunt land.
I note, however, that basic has been expanded by a week in order to give instruction on balancing a checkbook, ethics, and consideration of others. We may be the "gang that could not shoot straight", but we will most certainly be appreciative of the folks that stick a bayonet in our chest when we shot the hell out of the landscape and miss the bugger with murder in his heart.
As you may well surmise, this is a pet peeve.
Ed <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 11:06:41 (ZULU)
Darryl,
Friends back friends here in this microcosm of the shooting world. This has been proven time and time again. Go hit some of those "famous" shooting web sites and read the real blather. Bet it ain't so boring then!
I think almost everything posted here is precision long range shooting related. Whether historically interesting, or "cutting edge" information being disseminated for everyones improvement.
Boring, NAH, unconventional yes! HONEST AND TRUTHFULL ABSOLUTELY!
Jeff A.
Sgt. Major FUBAR will usually back off if velocity is dropped. The
.260 isn't a 220 Swift, althought its pretty darn awesome from what you
guys have been posting in the past six months.
I have also heard that the purchase of a Sniper Country T-shirt
for Bab's The Nailer may just bring harmonius balance back to GA. shooting
ranges and everything becomes "As One".
Well back to the loading bench and contemplation of the Zen riddle of .308 handloads.........
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 11:48:02 (ZULU)
A book about the quips of al o and peteR! Thats great. Like peteR said "WE ARE GOING TO BE CELEBRATIES." The money should start rolling in pretty soon. Oh boy oh boy!! New 308 Tactical rifles for everyone and scoped with the scope of your choice. Money is no object!! Place your orders now. I'll take care of the money and peteR will buy the rifles. (he-he-he) Rod and Kent, how many ATs do you guys have in stock?
We're gonna be rich!!
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Feelin' Rich Fat and Sassy this Morning in , Ohio, USA - Thursday,
May 13, 1999 at 12:10:22 (ZULU)
Gooch couldn't have said it any better, regarding USMC rifle training. I was a decent plinker before getting to the island almost a decade ago, but they really did get some basics across to you. Dad and I have sat and compared what PI was like between when I was there, and when he was in '61... it hadn't changed much, if at all. Different names and faces, different rifles, and I guess LINE was different from what they taught then, but all-in-all, pretty much a match.
One of the things I always thought funny was how much we depended on the 500 yd line. 200 yd had slowfire (sitting, kneeling, off-hand) and rapidfire (sitting); 300 yd slowfire (sitting) and rapidfire (prone); and 500 yard (prone). Sitting positions were fine, kneeling okay, off-hand bit, rapid-fire wwas something you either liked or didn't, but the 500 yard, since it was a slow-fire from the prone, you usually racked up points there.
Jeff B.: If D. West was on-line at the moment, yes, I'd have kept my mouth shut. You're absolutely right, though, Gooch is more than capable of taking care of himself, so I said naught.
L8R,
Leslie Bright ("Rock") <lbright@utk.edu>
K-town, TN, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 13:17:16 (ZULU)
Training: I've been into shooting for 30+ years and have been fortunate to have gone through Army SF Weapons SGT training. Every foreign and domestic weapon from a homemade zip gun to a 155 howitzer is taught. Not only is combat training conducted but dissasemblies and maintanence are at the armorers level. I must admit though that Long Range Rifle shooting has always captured my interest the most. From all aspects of ballistics, precision gunsmithing, shooting positions and conditions, ranging, etc. LRR is the most demanding. I'm not the best of shots, but I feel fortunate that I have the opportunity to continue to learn and improve by being able to seek information from others on websites like this, ranges and clubs and from professionals at schools such as SMTC, Gunsite, and others. So I guess the point here is that whether you are civilian, LE or military, the facilities are available and if you have the desire many are willing to help.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 13:19:35 (ZULU)
Well everybody's comments about Military marksmanship training were pretty interesting (I like your jab at the AF and Navy, Gooch).
I guess in my little Marine/Former Marine world were I and most people that I shoot with are good at it, it never occured to me that some people would manage to do a tour in an organization designed for a war, yet never handle a weapon. I guess on a variation of the "the way to a man's heart is through his stomache," we can now say, the way to conquer an Army, is to attack where the cooks are.
Maybe the difference is that some services view each soldier as having a specific job that may not have anything to do with combat. In this view, a cook should have no reason to learn to shoot, because his JOB is cooking. If shooting is needed, well the company of people whose job it is to shoot, are right down the road. In contrast, every Marine's job is to shoot, fixing airplanes is just what you might do in between times.
This also may explain why my good friend (a former SEAL) can't hit diddly with his pistol and refuses to even try a rifle when we are at the range.
When I was in bootcamp, we had some extra motivation. All recruits had mess duty after we qualified at the range. The top 15 shooters got their mess duty at the Woman Marine recruit depot. I can tell you that there was some heavy competition among the 75 or so of us for those 15 spots... And those of you who understand will probably appreciate the value I found in the reward itself.
To B.Rogers, I agree that shooting, like any skill, is one that is developed, rather than peaked and lost. I know that at 35+ I can shoot better than I ever have before, but I ALSO know that having learned to shoot PROPERLY when I was 18 gave me the discipline and skills required later. Can you be a great shot without having been a great shot at 18? Of course. But I suspect that a lot of people are great shots for a longer overall period when they can avoid some of the pitfalls that others have to learn over time, or when they are never allowed to develop the bad shooting habits that I see all the time at the range. I've seen some 50 year olds that can shoot the balls off a gnat's ass, and I certainly wouldn't want to oppose them in combat, but for my side I'll take twenty raw Marine recruits who can all shoot the balls off a cat at 300 yards, than a group of random 50 year olds that may contain only one or two shooters that can do the gnat thing. The great shooters will always get better, but most shooters are not that great. All shooters can be TRAINED to be very good at 18, even the ones who may never get better. That's what proper marksmanship training gives you. You may never get any better but once, you were given all the tools and skills that you will ever need to become a great shooter; many of which (barring opinions of Marine basic) you never had to learn the hard way over time. Wars are not fought, by and large, by 30-50 year olds, but by 18-22 year olds. Maybe an 18 year old WILL shoot better over time, but getting him to shoot well at 18 should be the military's immediate goal, and it sounds like that may not be happening outside of the Marine Corps.
Oh well. At least all of us seem to be doing OK.
Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 13:28:02 (ZULU)
Jeff A,
Check your AMAXs and if they are the "Real" long ones with a fairly big plastic tip on them then you have a box of the early ones that have a thin skin and will come apart. They are usually in a red and white box and I believe have a lot number starting with "96". The new ones look a lot like the 140 MK for size and have a small tip more like the V-Maxs. If you have the old style call Hornady and they will replace them for you. I have had good luck with the new ones as far as accuracy goes. My new 260 VLS seems to like the same loads as the custom one and Varget gets the "Nod". 37 to 38 grains is where it likes to shoot the 142s. The VLS shoots the 142s at 100 a lot better than the custom rifle but then I think part of the problem was with the scope. I have only shot two groups with it since I put the 4.5 to 14 on it and they were .4 and .5 so I shouldn't bad mouth it until I do some more shooting at 100. I have been trying to get the VLS tuned in so I can take it to the match in Nebraska. Its shooting damn good so far if I do my part. I have a great set of wind tables made up for the 142s and have them from 5mph to 25mph. So far they have been right on the money out to 700 yards and when we were shooting at 800,900 and 950 they seemed to be on that day also but we didn't have much for wind (thats why I was shooting that range)HA If you would like a copy of them send me your address and I will send you a copy also my dials if your interested. I have went back through my range book and took all the winds and the dials I made for the wind and the corrections and checked them against the tables and they are right on so it should save you some ammo!!
Bill R,
I loved your post!!! Never truer words were spoken!! My favorite
saying now is "OLD AGE AND TREACHERY WILL OVERCOME SKILL AND YOUTH" at
least thats what I like to believe(HA) My number one son is closing the
gap fast and I see the day in the near furture when I will be setting in
the stands while he takes home the prizes but thats "OK" too as long as
we have "Young Bulls" to carry on. You and I have to meet someday we share
a lot of the same thoughts!! In fact there are a lot of guys on here I
would love to sit down and shoot the shit with over a cold one, we need
a SC convention, Scott!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 13:34:43 (ZULU)
Guys oh Guys, Yes it is completely true that McMillan and HS Precision are making rifes for this test. I am sending my two stock Remington Varmints to them to be trued, stocked and bbl'd. I have several thousand rounds of Match ammo ready. I don't know how this all started but I am greatful to be part of a head to head testing procedure. I wont go into great detail of how the test is to be conducted(I have to save something for you all to read) but I will tell you I am going to take a few of my students that can really shoot and put them through the paces with both rifles. I do not think that one man alone can conduct this test and look fair. I already caught that dig from Bolt. From what I currently know both companies make great products. Now I ask you all a question. I think I should try for loaner scope/s so that both rifles have the same scope set up. Do you agree? The best I can do is one VariX3 M1 Tactical and one MK4 M1. Do you guys think that is close enough?
I guess I am just an extra in the movie. My name was an after thought. LOL
Pete I have been meaning to talk to you about this thing you have with Varget. Does your wife know?
Now for the true skinny. I feel like a kid in a candy store. Think about it, the two best sniper rifle companies letting me test there rifles and getting to write about it. And if you have not figured out what I have lets all say THANK YOU JR, YOU ARE THE MAN!
One Happy UnDude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 14:51:18 (ZULU)
Mike,
RIG followed by a roll in Varget beats the heck out of Hoppes #9 behind the ears. ;-)
Once again (sorry Darryl!) Great Job and I for one am really looking
forward to reading this little T&E once the smoke has cleared!
Now if you could just get one of those AT-24 thingees too....
Hmmm?
(sorry Darryl!) (sorry Darryl!) (sorry Darryl!) (sorry Darryl!)
(sorry Darryl!) (sorry Darryl!) (sorry Darryl!) (sorry Darryl!)
LMOA oops Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 15:20:51 (ZULU)
On the D. West issue, I believe this whole thing started due to an offhand comment from a 14 year old. You can see why our policy is to limit this site’s access to those 18 and above. West was misquoted. While there are some great kids out there, it is just not worth having them here due to the risk. We are looking into an age verification system now as we are all getting pretty sick of the occasional mess a "well meaning" kid can cause. This too may piss a few people off, but I think the site will benefit from it.
Having recently been accused of saying some things that I believe were misunderstood offhand comment, I can empathize with Darryl. No one will be coming to my aid on this one and I probably have lost a friend. But I’ll be damned if we let West go down the drain over a second hand comment. I’ll be blunt: if you are not over 18, DO NOT comment here again. Come back after gaining a little more wisdom and a lot more years.
On lack of weapons knowledge: I met one fellow who couldn’t (or WOULDN’T) tell a bullet from a grenade. He was a Seventh Day Adventist by religion and was drafted into the Marines in WWII. A very mild mannered man, Desmond T. Doss refused to take another life and was made a medic after he endured a load of lousy treatment by those who could not understand his beliefs. To make a long story short, Doss saved a lot of marines during his career and was eventually awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for single handedly saving 75 to 80 marines from imminent death during one rather nasty retreat. Alone, he stayed with the wounded on a cliff top and lowered each one over the edge to safety. This was done under heavy fire and at great personal risk. Doss was wounded several times and I believe he lost his hearing due to this event. He gave all he had but would never pick up a gun, not even to save his own life. I bring it up because I know of many who became medics in the military due to similar beliefs about the sanctity of life. I knew several personally. I would salute every damn one of them. It takes a lot of guts and fortitude to charge the enemy with a rifle. Image how much more it takes to do this with out any means of defense save for your own convictions. While we might scoff at those with in the gun "industry" that know next to nothing about what they sell, I believe there are others, who despise weapons but who are equally deserving of our highest respect for their convictions. These folks are not "antis". They just hold their beliefs very close to the heart and stand by them willingly when it is not healthy to do so.
What does that have to do with the Roster? Maybe nothing. Maybe everything. It takes a unique individual to remove someone from humanity via a scoped rifle. But we would do equally well to understand those who would save lives as well. Guess I am rambling. Take this for what you will.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 17:57:37 (ZULU)
Left handed shooters. Hmmm...I have not found it to be a great disadvantage. Off-hand shooting requires some interesting manipulation, but with a little practice you can find a technique that works. I too like the Right bolt, left port idea, or the left bolt, right port idea. Either is fine. The only real down side for a lefty is when loading a bolt gun on the move or under stress. It is easy to cobb things up with the right side port. This is the one area were a drop free mag would be nice.
Someone asked about the Px taking credit cards. I am working on this
now. All you charge card fanatics, hang in there.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 18:02:44 (ZULU)
Question? Iam looking for info on serria 250 Gr. 30 Cal. bullets. I called sierra and they said that they are making them for the military, "special application" as they put it. Are they available to civilians? What are they using them for , competition or sniping?
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mt. country, Pa., USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 12:15:33 (ZULU)
Well someone's got to say it... "Can't we all just get along."
Seriously though this is a great site. I've learned a lot even when I disagree with you bunch o' monkeys. The wealth of info you guys have shared has saved me time, money and mistakes.
Question: I have been having some reoccuring problems with .308 Federal 168 grain BTHP ammo. Misfires and difficulty chambering rounds. As there are no obvious external ammo defects, I suspect a problem with my rifle (a fairly new Remington 700 VS SF). At the same time, I haven't had similar problems with other ammo (mainly surplus stuff) and the gun itself appears to be in excellent condition. I am curious as to whether or not anyone else has experienced similar problems? Could Federal be having quality control issues? Are there tighter tolerances that I am not aware of? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance.
Brad <brad.scott@frco.com>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 12:50:05 (ZULU)
Mike M - Aw, I didn't mean to hurtums feelings by mentioning you (and your slings) in a following post...
Don't think of it as if you're an extra, think of yourself like Boba Fett: he was supposed to be an extra and ended up becoming the cult hero! ;-)
Chris from NZ:
You asked about FATS and Fam-fire.
FATS is FireArm Traning Systems. It's like a big video game at an arcade. There is a large projection screen in front of you, the projection system is tied to a laser disc, and your weapon has an aiming sensor and an air compressor tied to it. You're put into differnt scenarios, that can vary. One time you might have someone run around a corner and shoot at you. The next time you're in that simulation, someone may run around the corner with a baby. The air compressor gives a little kick so you feel a little recoil, making it a little more real. The miliary and police use it for developing reaction skills. The time I used it was in a MOUT scenario, doing room-clearing.
Fam-fire is Familiarization Fire. It's just putting rounds down-range with a weapon, keeping you familiar with how it handles or introducing you to a new weapon, not as concerned with your level of marksmanship development.
L8R,
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
K-town, TN, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 13:20:42 (ZULU)
Brad,
you don't mention what type of problem your having as far as chambering the round. If it closes hard or if its a feeding problem.
You may want to check the chamber to make sure its clean and doesn't have some type of debree in where the locking lugs close. Its tough to see in there and even harder to clean without the proper tool but this could cause you problems with the round chambering hard(If this is the problem) as far as misfires go I don't know what to tell you since Federal has the softest primers in the industry. You may need a smith to look at the firing pin to see if its coming out far enough. If your getting "light" hits on the primer this may be the problem. This is about all I can come up with, without more info. Maybe Pablito or Ron would have a better idea.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 13:45:28 (ZULU)
ABOUT MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING IN THE ARMY.Marksmanship seems to have been given a back seat.There has been talk that annual quailifation being done on a FATS machine.In the guard you would not qualify until you got to your mobe station.Marksmanship is a basic solider skill.With the things happening around the world soliders are being deployed to different places and marksmanship should be first priority.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC@CIRIS.NET>
C.C. , TEXAS, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 14:06:04 (ZULU)
Big Gunn,
On those sierra 250s. They are making 240s that are actually better
than the 250s. Extremely long bullet have gyroscopic stability problems
at ranges near trans-sonic flight. The longer they are the more trouble
they have. That's why .50 caliber rifle matches records are all set with
solid bronze or steel CNC lathe turned bullets. The 250s and 240s both
require a 1:8" twist. The problem with faster and faster twists is that
the faster the twist, the more limited your bullet selections will be.
These long bullets are also NOT VLD design and have very long bearing surfaces.
That is good and bad, it's good for precision, bad for barrel wear. Recoil
is substantially increased. I even have some of the older Sierra tables
for the .250 grain bullet somewhere. My specialty is the .50s and their
special bullets but still play with the little guns every now and then.
The 240s are available from Champions Choice in lots of 500 only. think
they're about 125.00 or so. Hope this helps.
Trigger50 <Dmicha@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 14:50:52 (ZULU)
Someone asked me about recoil offline. I thought it might be useful for all.
Recoil absolutely effects the point of impact. Recoil is often thought of as something that happens "after the shot." This is incorrect. Recoil begins at the same instant that bullet starts moving. Remember - "For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action." In our case that re-action is re-coil. Since recoil moves the rifle while the bullet is still in the barrel - the point of impact is moving as well.
Well then, how can one ever hit the desired point if the rifle is being moved around by recoil? Easy! The shooter must make absolutely sure that the rifle recoils exactly the same way every time. Since everything touching the rifle influences it's movement the marksman must pay special attention to all of those contact points. Everything matters equally and consistency is key. How hard your hands are gripping the rifle, how much weight you have on the rifle from your head laying on it. (cheek pressure), how you follow through the shot, how much shoulder contact you have and all the geometry around the angle of contact that goes with it, how much bag is touching the rifle in a rest, bark on the side of a tree, and on and on. All these things effect the rifles ability to move consistently under the equal and opposite reaction of recoil.
One of my favorites to show new shooters .... Put your thumb under your cheek just like you would in a good "stock weld." Now wink your eye real quick. You will feel the muscles in your face tense up and move your thumb. If your face - is touching your thumb - is touching your rifle... Are you keeping your eyes open through the shot ? Do you tense up your face muscles in the microsecond before she lights off ? Are you flinching just a little ? Tensing your chest or shoulder muscles ? Arm - hand ? It is all touching the rifle and changing the way it recoils.
Hope this helps
J.D.
James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 14:53:17 (ZULU)
Sarge,
How's it going? Hadn't talked to you in a while. Did Chad ever call? I haven't seen or talked to him in a few weeks.Anyone (ranchers) down in your part of the world got any spare antelope tags for sale? Got a buddy from CA looking for a place to hunt the little prongies.
Having a blast on Interstate 40,
Steve
10X
Steve Starksspear <starksspear@plateautel.net>
un-Conchas Dam, NM, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 15:01:27 (ZULU)
Trigger 50,
You mentioned the other day that you didn't have much use for the rear bag, I was curious as to why you felt this way since I find it much steadier to use it when ever possible. I will be the first to admit that I have never been trained to shoot different positions and this may be why I like the "Crutch" it provides me.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 15:45:43 (ZULU)
Ammo check. The situation with .308 Federal match drying up continues. We are getting some shipments of it in but it at a trickle. We will be getting Black Hills in larger quantity. Same quality a little more/case. Actually, depending on your loyalties it appears that the Black Hills brass is a little more consistent as it is made by Norma. Call or email SMTC for prices.
The search goes on.
TRGT Databook is online and ready for orders at Storm Mountain and TRGT.COM.
FAMFIRE is another term for we're too busy to really train you so
lets just put a check in the box and get back to swabbing the deck and
other important issues.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 15:46:18 (ZULU)
FAMFIRE is also a term meaning "even though you fully qualified, we won't authorize you to wear the badge."
When I was in, as an NCO, I had to pistol qual as part of a six-month assignment to a quick react team. On qual day I fired right alongside others who were firing for record. I "qualified" as pistol expert. Months later, while looking at my SRB while checking out of a unit, I noticed that my pistol expert rating had been changed to FAMFIRE. The logic, as it was explained by a rather overweight gunny, was that if HE didn't get to pistol qual, then none of his NCOs would either. Some battles weren't worth fighting. I'm sure Gooch will remember the term for THIS as "getting the big green weenie." :-)
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 17:01:13 (ZULU)
I am interested in buying a TA-01NSN 4x32 "Special Forces" scope. I think they run around $750.00 – 850.00 Also if you have any comments on how well or poorly the scope works I would be interested in your opinions.
mw
Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 17:29:08 (ZULU)
Question - does anyone have a cheap source for IMI brass?
Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 18:27:01 (ZULU)
Pat,
The major reason that I don't like, and don't like to teach guys the rear bag thing is that it eventually becomes too much of a "crutch". Dynamic shooting environments may not allow the use of a bag and after someone has shot only this way, without it then suddenly are not able to "freehand" stabilize the rear of the gun. To be accurate with the rifle, a shooter must be able to "neutrally" pull the trigger without disturbing the lay of the gun. When the gun is supported by a bag or bipod in the front and only the human in the rear, many guys have trouble getting that "neutral" trigger pull. YOu could say it's a teaching point alone, but it's not. Case in point, where I used to work at we had a Coast Guard officer (don't ask me how he got there) who was a benchrest shooter show up. During movers, he ambushed the targets by bagging the gun and letting the target walk into his "lead". No problem with that. He had pure hell with snaps because a snap means you have to move the tail of your gun quickly to a target across a 15 meter (depending on the school) front and smoke him within 3 seconds. This is done at 200, 300, and 400 yards, all head shots. (Don't groan, it gets done). :)
Mike,
The ACOG is a relatively poor sight in my opinion. With it's fixed
parallax setting (at 100 yards) there is optical error at further ranges.
Additionally, unless you have 20/20 vision, the reticle will be fuzzy.
The resolution of the lenses is not that great. I would advise checking
out a US Optics SN-4 or SN-5. These not only have ballistic reticles like
the ACOG, but also have elevation and windage knobs that are not "screwdriver"
slot types. BTW the US Optics scopes adjustments actually work. Line pair
resolution with US Optics is in the order of 75 line pair / mm or greater.
The ACOG is around 35 line pair / mm. What does that mean? Higher resolution
means that you can see very well camouflaged targets much easier. Example:
with the L&S Mark IV m16X scope, a human wearing BDUs is almost impossible
to see when he is standing on terrain with similiar colors. The L&S
has about 40 line pair / mm . With a US Optics scope of the same power,
with only their high resoltion lenses (they offer Ultra-high res.) that
same target stands our clearly. The money is a bit more, depending on the
setup, they have variable power of 1 -4 or more with a doubler. The bases
are the best in the business. Very high speed. Check them out at WWW.USOPTICS.COM...
Sorry about the book here. Dean
Trigger50 <DMicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 18:47:43 (ZULU)
Hey. I have been drooling.....i mean looking at my new "loaded" M1A
and wondering if the synthetic stock from springfield will allow the weapon to shoot to its potential. Would i be better off bedding a wood stock?
I'm waiting on my brass to arrive to start working up some loads.
Going to try some 748 and IMR-4895 as some of you suggested.
Might try some varget too as i shoot it in my .223.
Trying to find a load to duplicate 168 Fed Match load.
Thanks everyone for the e-mails and help.
recon <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 18:57:08 (ZULU)
Gooch,
Are you guys going to be selling Black Hills match ammo or the Norma Black Diamond? Any personal preference of one over the other besides price?
Thanks,
Doc (Robert L."Doc" Holloway) <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 19:20:55 (ZULU)
IMI Match Brass-- Jim at Ft. Meade,
I just picked up on a source for what my distributor says is IMI match ammo. I know how loosely the term "match" is slung around but these guys are too big and too reputable to try and treat their customers like they're stupid. I thought the price was right (I'll ship 1,000 to you for $305), and think of it this way-- the brass'll cost you close to 2/3 of that to buy it if you can find it, and this way by the time you "convert" it from match cartridge to empty match brass, it'll allready be "chamber friendly" to your particular rifle.
If you like I will get some more details on it, but I cannot get
a sample of less than 500 rds.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 20:12:05 (ZULU)
On the sand sock thing. Those things eveolved during my tenure at Quantico. When I attended the 3rd Marine Division School in Oki (1980)they weren't taught. I always used a issue leather glove on my left hand and grabbed the sling and rear sling swivel. If I needed to raise or lower the butt stock I tightened or loosened my grip. Rosin or Neatsfoot oil on the glove made it sticky enough that once the proper elevation was reached I could relax the hand just enough to keep any shaking out of the position.
Sand socks started to show up around 82-83. At first the guys would simply dump sand in them but they evolved into rice, beans, pop corn etc. We had plastic craft beads at Little Rock for the guys to use. I can shoot with them and without them. THey are great for beaning your observer when he makes a bad wind call and you can play catch with them when you are bored. Make a half ass pillow too. I like mine about softball sized and pretty firm. One that is too cushy wont provide proper support.
Biggest detriment to learning to shoot is that sometimes guys will fail to properly build a position when using them, leting the bag support the butt not the shoulder. I think the way to teach with them is to not to let the student use them until he learns proper positions through shooting from sling supported positions and supported prone without the bag.
And thats how I feel about it. SO there!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 21:01:42 (ZULU)
Gooch,,
Couldn't agree with you more. Your comments were spot on. Slings
also work great from the bipod tail to the shooting upper arm. Kind of
rigidizes the system and the shooter. Great for dynamic targets. I used
the same deal, shooting glove over the left hand under the tail of the
gun. Take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 22:17:07 (ZULU)
IMI brass
I like www.wideners.com .308 match brass goes for $90 for 500 and $165 for 1000. Free shipping. I have had very good luck with this stuff in my M1A. Use millitary load data. This brass has a smaller case volume. I like 42 grains of 748.
CJ
CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 22:45:55 (ZULU)
Dean,
Someone asked a while back "What is a good 300 yard group from the sitting postition using cross sticks?" The answer that was offered, I believe was that the sitting postiion groups should be the same as prone, but ditch the cross sticks and use a tripod. or words to that effect. I have been stewing over that answer ever since. How does one build a sitting postition that is as stable as a supported prone postition when there is no way to support the rifle fore and aft, as is the case with the the prone supported, using a bean bag, or a closed fist? And just what is the maximum effective range that a trained marksman can engage a target from the sitting (tripod) supported position and hit within about 8 moa with 99.97% certainty under reasonable range conditions?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 23:04:34 (ZULU)
Steve asked -
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 00:28:18 (ZULU)
Steve asked - "How does one build a sitting postition that is as stable as a supported prone postition when there is no way to support the rifle fore and aft, as is the case with the the prone supported, using a bean bag, or a closed fist?"
Cross your legs left over right to provide max support for the legs lean forward and rest your elbows on a meaty portion of the knee area. Don't bend over too far or you will get a lot of pulse beat from the arteries in the abdomen and don't place the hard portion of the elbows on the hard portion of the knees. Its like trying to get two ball bearings to sit on top of each other. FOr those who may be overly abundent in said abdominal area you may have to loosen the old belt a bit.
Using whatever you have for the front support (make sure its padded or the rifle will jump abnormally) you place the rifle into your shoulder. Take your non-firing hand and place it against your firing shoulder letting the toe of the stock rest in the "V" of the non-firing hand. If it works for you, you can actually grab the jacket with your non-firing hand to help out.
Ensure that you have a good natural point of aim and sling lead. With practice this position can be rock solid.
If you have trouble bending over you can place the right foot on
the ground which will elevate the right knee which can then be used to
support the right elbow and give you a more upright position.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 00:28:54 (ZULU)
To All-
I just recieved a M700 std long action to build into a custom rifle and I'm looking for some pointers from those that have done it. I need advice on a good, reasonable gunsmith to true the action, lap the lugs and chamber and install a quality barrel (?brand?). I intend to use a #6 straight taper barrel and an A2 McMillan stock. I can do the stock, I just need the metal work done and the action Teflon coated.I already own several excellent shooting M700's. I'm leaning toward chambering this gun in 6.5/06 and any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.....
OUT HERE
Jamison <JamisonL@mscarriers.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 01:09:46 (ZULU)
Cult hero. heck I dont even have a black robe. LOL
Dean, about US Optics. My only experience is with the Armalite version. It was very clear and a tank could have ran over it. It had one problem. The turrets would not track worth a darn. Two minutes up might be zero and might jump six minutes. Same side to side. So I never checked any others out. I talked with a couple of other with similar results also. Too bad after talking with Mr.Armalite(Westrom) I really liked him and would have loved to give him business. What are the other US Optic Scopes Like?
I have had good luck with IMI Match 308 Brass.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 01:46:15 (ZULU)
Re: misfires
Brad,
Firing pin protrusion should be set to about .055-.060". I used
to make mine .052", but had some hangfires and misfires using cases that
had been "uniformed" with Whitetail's uniformer. This is a small cutting
tool that is supposed to cut the pocket to depth (S.A.A.M.I. specs.). I
think it cuts them too deep, but am only speculating. The seated primers
just didn't look right if you know what I mean. I don't use it anymore.
You may be experiencing tolerance stack up, but this is only a ballpark guess. Cases a little short on headspace length, the extractor not holding the rim in close proximity to the bolt face, etc, etc. You get the idea.
The part that bothers me is that you say "…difficulty chambering rounds…." . Hmmm. Sounds like the bolt face is in close proximity to the case, so this rules out any shortness of case length problems unless the case body is too large in diameter (not likely). If it is, then part of the firing pins energy would be used to seat the cartridge against the shoulder. Again only a wild guess.
If you had a case gauge and a dial caliper that would go a long way to ruling the Fed. ammo in or out.
Let us know what you find out.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 01:50:43 (ZULU)
For those that are interested in the US Optics scope. A friend has one coming - not sure how soon - and has offered me the opportunity to do a full Sniper Country test and evaluation as long as I leave it in one piece!! Again I'm not sure how soon this will be but be looking for for the review!
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 03:03:37 (ZULU)
Mike,
Are you still having trouble with that scope?? I have a good in at US Optics. Have advised them to install travel locks on the elevation and windage knobs. They say they are going to do this. The reason this happens is that the erector cell inside stops moving because it bumps into the tube body, but there is room on the threaded driver for the knob to continue to travel past max and min. elevation travel of the erector cell. Generally, that's okay as long as you know where and when that happens. what is important is that it picks up track correctly when it re-engages. The scope that US Optics built for Armalite was what you could call their "economy" version. They are currently working on a very long range model that is externally adjusted a.k.a. the Unertl target scopes. However, the front ring is actully a hinge assembly made of tool steel that is much stronger than the Unertl design. It is prismatic rear eyepiece, the same as the M-49 spotting scope. Tube diameter will probably be 50mm with a 88mm objective. Ultra high resolution lenses. Prismatic eyepieces allow the scope to be about 4 to 6 inches shorter than normal.
During the Korean conflict, a gunsmith that was in the army on an island of Formosa was across a channel from communist chinese. they modified a Boys anti-tank rifle for US .50 caliber BMG. For a scope, they used a prismatic spotting scope off of a chinese anti tank rifle. It had a reticle in it already. He machined a set of external adjusted rings for the gun. Very successful. Seems like nothing is new though... Damn, wrote a book, sorry.
Dean
Trigger50 <DMicha@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 03:08:25 (ZULU)
Steve,
Gooch said about everything regarding the sitting position. Just get that natural point of aim worked out, and watch the usual p's and q's of shooting, and it'll do fine.
Qualifying with the M16A2 in the Marine Corps you fire from the sitting position from both the 200 and 300 yard line, but no tripods or sticks... just you and a sling. You're shooting at a 12" diameter bullseye, so you've got 6" of leeway in any direction from center to keep it in the black. Works out to a hair under 2 moa at 300 yards, and still under 3 moa at 200 yds.
So, I suppose that doesn't really answer your question of a 99.99% max. effective range under 8 moa from a supported sitting position, but I can't complain about someone who can shoot a 2 moa at 300 yards for a no-tripod-sitting position with a 5.56 NATO round from an issue rifle.
Personal commentary: On a range, that's all fine and good. But when you're shooting when it counts, if you're not shooting from the prone there'd better be a damn good reason why. You're a smaller target, and back to the jist of your original comment, yes, the supported prone position should inherently be advantageous over the sitting. Obtaining good cover and concealment is much easier when the worms see your belly out their skylight.
Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Home of the Vols, TN, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 03:29:57 (ZULU)
Hi all.
Just got my new AR put together. After Bushmaster bent me over I ordered a lower from American Spirit Arms. I have built a dozen or so kits over the last 15 years and the ASA lower is probably the nicest i have seen. the fit to the upper and the black finish is very good.
It seems to be mil spec in deminsions internaly. now if it will hit the side of a barn.
Probably wait to shoot it as i havent broke in my M1A yet.
Take care all.
recon <recon@midusa.net>
Where the wind is always blowin, Ks, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at
03:54:15 (ZULU)
I just saw the part up the roster about taken guns apart and people not being able to put them together. Reminded me of a recent episode with a gunsmith in my area. A friend is restoring a Harrington & Richardson M-1 and found a really nice barrel at the Tulsa gun show. This gunsmith said he could put it on the weapon for him for 25 bucks. We let him.
When we went to get the gun i took the parts so i could put the gas
cylinder on and make sure the sights indexed correctly. He did a good job
with the barrel but then he decided to assemble the gun for us.
It was funny but sad at the same time. He couldnt figure out the
front handgaurd, He put the gas cylinder lock screw on before the lock.
it was a sad show as he is an ex airforce man with viet-nam experience.
oh well sorry for rambling.
recon
recon <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 04:08:47 (ZULU)
Recon,
Have a little pity or sympathy for a poor old gunsmith who can't remember how every bloody weapon goes back together. I've field-stripped a jillion M-1's; but I would have to get out the books to figure out how to put on the front handguard. I'm amazed that an Air Force trooper knows anything at all about a Garand ;). If you take them apart yourself you can usually get them back together. If someone else takes them apart, it's a damned sight harder to put them back as they were. As an old gunsmith once said: I work on it first and I'll charge you $35; you work on it first and it's $70!!!!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 04:44:35 (ZULU)
Ok Doc we will cut him some slack on this one. He did do a good job screwin the tube on. gettin old is the pits man but i guess it beats the hell out of the alternatives.
recon
recon <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 05:17:52 (ZULU)
Is Varget safe to use in an M1A? Is the burning rate appropriate for 168 grainers? Thanks
recon <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 05:25:59 (ZULU)
Greetings!
I have a question about a very special sniper rifle as I've recently had the chance to use it against human silouettes on 500m (547yds) . I was very suprised when I saw that I've hit three out of five - here I have to say that the only rifle I've shot before was my .22WinMag out to 200m (219yds).
The rifle I'm talking about is the Austrian Steyr-Mannlicher SSG 69, also known as the P1 (civil name).
It's chambered for the NATO 7.62x51mm and designed to engage human sized targets out to 800m (875yds). You can find a detailed discription of this weapon at http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/ssg/ssg.htm
As I'm thinking of buying this beauty I'd like to know your opinion first - if anyone has experience on this rifle please tell me. Another thing I'd like to know is how much it would cost in the USA as here in Austria the prices range up to 1900 US-$ (the rifle only !!!)
Rafael
Rafael <raf@gmx.net>
Austria - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 09:30:38 (ZULU)
Recon...
When I first got my M21 (M1A in a "Sniper" stock), I was told by everybody that knew them, to use the classic 41.5/4895/168 load.
Had reliability problems, but the gun was accurate. When I upped the load to the point where I didn't have ejection problems, and the gun was 100% reliable, I saw primer signs (I think the gas bleed hole is a few thou. under). Anyway, I switched to AA2520 and W748. Both are 100% reliable, even with the 155 Palma... 4895 wouldn't cycle the 155 worth a crap. I used Varget, and that is also very reliable, but it won't go smoothly through a measure in a progressive loading press. 4064 is also a great powder for the M1A/M21, but that stuff has to be weighed out, as no measure will work well with it.
Matching the pressure curve to the gun is necessary... you need 12,000-14,000 psi at the gas port to cycle the the action.
Currently testing for accuracy:
42.8/AA2520/168 in LC cases w/#34 primer @2635fps
43.4/AA2520/155 Palma/ " " " @2685fps
43.9/AA2520/168 " " " @2650fps
44.5/748/155 Palma " " " @2685fps
So far, the 155 Palmas have the edge.
Varget is between AA2520 and W748 in burning speed.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 09:59:48 (ZULU)
It seems like eveerybody is following in peteR's footsteps and starting again on people who proudly served in the Air Force. I was one of those people. Kent while I was in the Air Force they did show us an M-16 and did point out what the end of the barrel was so we "didn't shoot our eye out" and we did have to "qualify" with an M-16 shooting 60 rounds. (qualifing was simple not shooting your eye out.) They never really showed us what a handgun was. We saw a picture of one.
But I imagine service bashing will always continue, and Air FOrce type will always be one the bottom of the food chain, when discussing battle ops situations. Reminds me of the Air FOrce cook who received a Purple Heart because of "shell fragment in eye". Nobody mentioned if was an eggg shell fragment that got lodged there.
So go ahead and make fun of us. Maybe we deserve - be we still were ready to lay it all on the line for our country as many of us did.
As far as anyone considering getting a top premium scope scope goes - seriously consider getting a Baausch and Lomb Tactical 10X. Talk about perfect tracting. @100 yards 14 click up is exactly one mil and 14 clicks down brings you back to a perfect zero. No muss - no fuss. With unsurpassed optics, it is one of the finest scopes this Air Force vet has used. Worth the looking around to find one.
al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Reliving my Past while Proudly Serving, Ohio, USA - Saturday, May 15,
1999 at 10:17:58 (ZULU)
Al O...
... what the Hell are you doing up at this time in the morning?
I think the service bashing is part of the camaraderie, we all do
it.
I have great respect for Airforce guys, and while some of them get
shell fragments in the eye, there are a lot of them in prison camps during
every war.
I toast ewe guys anytime!
About the B&L Tactical 10x, you damn betcha... I got 3 of them
puppys,
and would get another in a New York minute. I'm not fond of the
parallax adjustment, but the optics and machanics run circles around the
Leupolds, and I've got more than a few Leupolds to compare them to.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 10:39:15 (ZULU)
Hi.
I hope no one took offense at my m-1 story. I certinly meant no disrespect to any military branch. Military people are the finest people on Earth.
Pablito, thanks for the additional info. I have Varget and 748 and 4895 to try but am unsure of the amt. of varget to use for the 2650 or so speed im looking for.
Thanks
recon
recon <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 14:10:57 (ZULU)
the absolute best site on the web bar-none
Jason Carter <jason_carter76@hotmail.com >
kokomo, indiana, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 17:27:41 (ZULU)
AL O. (Fly-Boy to newcomers),
Dang you mean we agree on TWO things in less than one week! The B&L Tactical scope is really well worth the money, and you and 'Lito are right on about its adjustment tracking capabilities.
Say hi to Esmerelda for me oh tay! ;-)
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 17:45:46 (ZULU)
Stuck my foot in my mouth again! Sorry that someone took my remark as service bashing. It sure wasn't meant that way. Every branch has it's specialties. I happen to be an ex-Navy pilot and several of my closest friends are ex-Air force, ex-Marine, and ex-Army. We jerk each others chain whenever we get a chance with no disrepect intended for their branch of service. Again, my sincere apologies.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 18:11:17 (ZULU)
A little diferent line of questions if I may concerning ghillie suits. I live in East Texas where it can be not only punishingly hot but subject to rain at any moment without warning.What with the primary components of the cammy being highly absorbent it looks like the ghillie would weigh a ton when wet and be unbearably hot when dry!How does one survive for extended periods under these circumstances?Has anyone found an adequate substitute for the burlap I realize that it provides the most natural looking textures/colors but I would rather not die of heat exhaustion while practicing my stalk.I have seen some body veils which store in a butt pack when not in use but they didnt look like they provided very good concealment or mobility.How about some actual sub-tropical experiences from htose of you who have operated under these conditions?
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 19:37:56 (ZULU)
TO Gooch and Leslie,
Thanks for the tips on the use of the tripod with the sitting postition. However, from your instructions, I dont think I am doing anything very wrong. I just have trouble keeping my knees from doing that Susan Sommers thighmaster exercise thing while I am trying to aim. What keeps the knees in a solid upright support position besides muscle tension? Most of my sitting position experience is with just a sling, at 200 yards rapid fire with iron sights, and if my targets reflect my ability to use the sitting position, then I dont have much business shooting at anything much past 200 yards. So far my practice with a tripod does not show that it improves my shooting much to be included in my kit and caboodel. I have tried to use a belt loop wraped around both knees as sort of a sling for my legs and believe it or not it seems to help a little. Has anyone else ever tried this?
On my original question, I made a little boo boo, what I meant to ask was What is the maximum distance that a trained marksman can expect to hit a 8 INCH target with 99% chance of success from the sitting position, not 8 MOA. Big difference.
The post on the M1 reminded me about something, Guys, if you ever
go to a High-Power match and get a chance to examine some old duffers M1,
Please do not ever touch the front handguard of his weapon, if you do,
you will be sorry.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 20:12:01 (ZULU)
QUESTION FOR ALL YOU AMMO EXPERTS - RECENTLY, I BOUGHT A TRUCKLOAD OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF .223/5.56MM (SOUTH AFRICAN, GUATEMALAN, ISRAELI, AMERICAN, PMC, ETC.). I FOUND THAT THE GUAT. AMMO WON'T CYCLE ONE OF THE AR15s I OWN. IT'S SHORT-STROKING. MY RECEIVER IS TRUE, THE BUFFER AND RECOIL SPRING ARE OK, THE GAS SYSTEM (INCL. GAS RINGS)IS TIGHT. BUT IT SHORT STROKES WITH GUAT. AMMO. IS THIS A WHIMPY LOAD? IS IT MILSPEC/SAAMI SPEC'D? ANY HELP WILL BE APPRECIATED. THANKS.
Marc <Chopper124@aol.com>
CT, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 21:03:29 (ZULU)
OK, gunshop rumor control time. Anything hear anything about an M1A stock being put out with an aluminum bedding block? If so, who makes it?
Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 21:18:09 (ZULU)
Pablito,
I figured out my elevation problem yesterday. Even after putting the front shim in right I could still only get 34MOAs of elevation and the 260 was landing 3 to 4 feet in front of the 900 yard target. The problem was the Dual Dove tail mounts on this rifle. I had to use up to much windage to get the rifle to hit dead center and by doing this I lost elevation. I was getting 34MOA on the dial but it quit moving the cross hairs after about 27 MOAs. I went to the old style with the back adjustment and centered the scope and now I have 45 MOA of adj. I dont know what to do about mounts now I would like to have something stronger but maybe I will have to stay with the older style mount. The action was squard and everything was trued up when the new barrel was put on so maybe the holes are off a tad.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 23:20:02 (ZULU)
Okay already! I've been getting a ton of email. Yes the TRGT databook is the one that I have been working on with a couple of other guys. Its done!! Its a cool green water resistant paper with thick green plastic cover. It is a hybrid between the USMC Quantico and the National Guard Databook I made when I was at the gaurd school. More than a databook it is also a mini manual with charts and instructions for range estimation etc.
If you have one of these and a mildot master you will be a cool dude
with women lathering at your feet. Buy them so I can afford to buy my own
.308 match ammo!!! Buy two and I can buy a laser range finder!!! Buy three
and I can buy food for my dog!!! Wait, screw the dog...Uhh, anyway check
it out.
gooch <pteoo791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 23:28:13 (ZULU)
Oh yea.
Marc - On the foreign ammo thing. First thing is there is no such thing as a standard NATO load. Every country has a different load. Canadas is different from UK who is diff from USA who is diferent from Austrailier. When the National Guard combat teams travel around they try to take US ammo with them cause the Brit ammo is filthy and the Ausy ammo won't cycle the M16A2. Canada has good ammo! Some countried even make a "training" load that has less recoil so it wont scare the little GI shooting it. That may be what you got.
Steve - Make sure that your legs are crossed left over right as this
tends to provide the best support for the legs when using the crossed leg
position. You may have too high of a support for the sitting position.
Try a lower support
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 23:40:11 (ZULU)
C'mon Guys----SOMEBODY out there is bound to have some loading data for a 6.5/06 IMP40*(Ackley).I think I'm going to use Dwight Scott as my gunsmith for this project once he finishes with all his benchrest customer's SuperShoot guns. Anybody with knowledge of Mr. Scott's work please E-mail me with an opinion. Thanks......
OUT HERE
Jamison <JamisonL@mscarriers.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 00:12:35 (ZULU)
B&L Tactical...yes MikeM, your scope is fine out here. Very nice scope indeed...neck and neck with the MarkIV. If you don't want mucho $$ in a scope, take a serious look at the Tasco SS scopes. Excellent mil-dot scope for $300, give or take.
Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 02:03:39 (ZULU)
All-
I'm getting prepared to make my first handloads to try out in my newly acquired 700VS chambered for .223 Remington. Anybody know for sure what the twist rate is for the stock barrel? [This 700VS has a 20" barrel. Remington's order number for the rifle is/was 29686.]
Thanks!
Gary <GSX1166@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 02:07:50 (ZULU)
Steve,
When using the sitting position, you pegged it about muscle tension - if you try to hold your legs up your muscles will undoubtedly quiver. I try to flatten my legs out as far as I comfortably can... then let them sit that way for awhile. They'll get to the point where they have a natural steady position.
In the first month of boot camp, the drill instructors had us doing all sorts of odd things which made no sense to us. We were marching around, holding our left forearm out straight, carrying canteens on top of our arm. We'd be called into a school circle on the rear quarterdeck of the squadbay, and have to sit there for an hour or so at a time with our legs crossed, several times a day. Painful, but purposeful. Carrying canteens turned into carrying rifles at left shoulder arms, and sitting crosslegged got us used to sitting in that position, for a whole month before we even thought about shooting on the rifle range. (Okay, I'll quit rambling!)
Anyway, don't lift your knees to your elbows; hunch your back to lower your elbows down to your knees' steady position. If you need a little more elevation, try pulling your ankles in closer to your rear... it'll raise your legs' elevation while maintaining your steady position.
Your idea about tying your legs together with a belt would be fine on a range if you are not firing in competition... don't think it would be allowed for scoring, and you wouldn't want to use it in the field. It does make sense that it would stabilize you, but I think you'd be better off spreading your legs out to where they are stable, and going from there.
You're right: 8" is a bit different that 8 moa! Well, like I said earlier, a Marine who qualified expert should be able to hit a 12" diameter circle from 300 yards with reasonable confidence with issue rifle, ammunition, sling, and iron sights. If you're using better equipment, that should account for the difference, or pick only the upper half of the jarheads that are wearing crossed rifles.
Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
K-town, TN, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 02:46:13 (ZULU)
Doc: Hell, DOc, no offence taken. If I took offense to everyone that razzed me about being an AF vet, I would be hunting peteR's fourth generation kinfolk because of the insults leveled at me.
peteR: Esmerelda is fine!!! Better than any ol' toothless country girl up in them thar hills. I guess there is a reason why you country boys do like toothless women. C'mon peteR Fess up!
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
SAturday night in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 04:23:33 (ZULU)
I enjoy the sharing of knowhow by people who obviously know how. The flamers are nothing more than flaming pains... and waste time.
Many years ago I had a conversation with a Jewish scholar who told me that his Torah reads; "Thou shall do no murder.", rather than the;
"thou shall not kill.", as translated in our English language Bibles.
That sounds a lot better and more consistant with what I believe.
I recently acquired a SR-25 and have a M3 mil-dot Leopold on it. No flames,please. What do you think of this particular shootin iron?
Ron Taylor <ghoti@gj.net>
Grand Junction, CO, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 05:27:20 (ZULU)
Jim, I have read of an aluminum block bedded M1A type rifle but don't remember where. It was part of the upgrade from the M21 to M25 by Brookfield Precision Tool and included BPT replacement spring guide and op rod, the BPT scope mount, and I think a rear lugged receiver. The stock was a McMillan M1A routed out with an H&S style bedding block glued into the rear of the stock. Fulton Armory should know the details.. they're right next door to you.
Bill 971 <lhardin1@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 13:06:02 (ZULU)
Ron Taylor,
That SR-25 should shoot real fine! The ones I played with six or seven years ago (I think?) shoot awful good out to 300 yards which was the range (berm)limit. I think it was either Federal 168 or Hirtenbeger that shot the best. Nice Scope Too!
Gooch, Dean, Steve, et. al.
Nice posts on tripod/beanie baby/sitting position shooting.
Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever tried shooting from the
position illustrated on the back of the S/C tee shirt? (I think the story
is he was just scanning-spotting, not shooting at the time pix was snapped.)
Al,
Duh, even a city boy, can figure that one out.
But PLEASE tell us more of the flat head/big ears options commonly found in the 'Burbs. They're kinda scarce in these parts and Inquiring minds want to know..........
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 14:19:40 (ZULU)
Sorting through my mail I just came across a mailing on the new, detachable magazine UARS stock. Anyone have any experiance with this? Looks pretty much like the standard UARS stock, except for the magazine. From the photo, the 10 round mag (only size available) looks to be almost as tall as the M-14 one, though it doesn't come down as far as the pistol grip (according to the ad, it is a single stack).
Anyone seen one yet?
Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 14:35:46 (ZULU)
Remington 223's. Original rifle were 1x14", changed a long time ago to 1x12" and current is 1x9". Most 1x9" are marked on bbl. If not probably a 1x12" Mike
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 15:39:03 (ZULU)
PeteR...
I use that position and it works OK for me...
I can't cross my legs indian style, so I can't say if it is as good as the way Gooch described, but I think Gooch's way is probably better, and definitely more stable.
I have shot this position with arms crossed, and with the left elbow on the left knee, and prefer the crossed arms, if I have the time... it gives me less heart beat, but it takes a bit more time to get settled in... and is not as good for a second shot. (Second shot... What second shot... We don't need no stinkin' second shot!!)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 15:55:47 (ZULU)
Thanks to all for the great feedback on my Remington 700/Federal cartridge problems.
Spent a lot of time at the range this weekend. Based on testing with several different commercial, handloaded and military surplus 308 rounds, I think Pablito got the "one shot kill" with his comments off line.
Some of Pablito's comments follow and from inspection of ejected cartridges, etc... I can safely say that the Federal ammo itself is not to blame. Rather, I got unlucky and the M700 itself has some tolerance issues which should be correctable.
> Take a new (never chambered before) Federal round, and chamber
it,
> then take it out... if it is difficult to chamber, there should
be marks> or scratches on the case or bullet... where are these marks and/or
scratches, > ... what do they look like?
> SCRATCHES (SOMETIMES CLOSE TO GOUGES) EXTEND THE FULL LENGTH OF
THE CASING TO > 1/4 OF THE WAY UP THE EXPOSED BULLET ITSELF. HEAVY SCRATCHES
ON ONE SIDE.
>
> The shape of the military bullet is much shorter, and more tapered
> than the Federal 168 bullet. Match bullets have longer bodies,
> and longer tapers than military, and hunting bullets.
> If there is a problem in the leade, or throat, the Fed bullet
> could touch, and the Military bullet would miss it.
>
> I would quickly guess that the bullet is hitting the throat or
leade, > causing the hard chambering... I would suspect that because the
bolt is hard to close, that you are not getting the handle all the way
down, > causing a "short fall" of the firing pin, giving you misfires.
Brad <brad.scott@frco.com>
USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 17:35:45 (ZULU)
Getting real close to having all my "stuff".
Need info on the following:
Spare parts to carry for Rem. 700's (bolt, etc.), Colt AR Delta, AK47(do not laugh), HK USP45.
Tools/tool kit to carry for above.
Best competition mags for 223.
Model number for Harris Bipod. Or, scrap this idea and get cheap tripod and modify?
Best surplus ammo for .223, 7.62x39, 45.
Most comfortable fashionable official looking sniper boots.
Bushrag sells gillie suit kits that look like string. Seen others that look like strips of burlap. Which is best? Gotta start on it soon.
Bolt out
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 18:36:43 (ZULU)
ABOUT THE TRGT LOGBOOK.Talked to hugo at TRGT on Friday and they said that they will start shipping out the books on monday.Also he said if anyone has feed back to let him know.Gooch gave me one of the National Guard Log Books he made up when he was at the guard school.IF its any thing like that it will have some good information.Hugo also said it has alot of good information and they will later be coming out with a three ring binder and cover book.Make sure to check out this new product.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC@CIRIS.NET>
C.C., TX, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 21:09:46 (ZULU)
UFOs are real, the Air Farce is False! (Ha, ha, ha!)
Pun intended...
Larry J. Porter (USN Ret. WW II type Diesel Subs) <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 16, 1999 at 23:35:23
(ZULU)
Target websites:
http://www.recgunscom/targets.html
http://www.gunindex.com/ind.html
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Monday, May 17, 1999 at 00:10:35 (ZULU)
Triggre50
Yep your right about the sierra 240 Gr. 30 Cal. I have been shooting them and 220 Gr. for some time now. I use these bullets to hunt deer with at long range ,and can keep 240`s above the speed of sound out to about 2000 Yds..
I have always wondered about the 250 Gr, I have a couple here but not enought to do any thing with..At 600 Yds. 220 Gr. Matchking is DEVASTATING on a white tail!! The 240 Gr. are very good out to about a mile. We are in the process of having a 338 Lupa mag. built.Do you or any one else have any info this cartridge?...
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mt. country, Pa., USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 03:01:33 (ZULU)
Regarding that picture on the SC T-Shirts PeteR asked about: Yes he was just spotting at the time. The actual position he is in would not be very likely to be chosen for actual shooting (no real control of the rifle when it recoils, with no arm sling and no grip on the stock. Unless of course you like having your rifle bounce around when you shoot it, but that's another issue). One minor trivial thing to notice is that his front scope mount is on backwards (so to speak). Normaly it would be mounted on the forward part of the mount, giving 7" of separation, rather than the 6.5 or so his mounts have. (Doesn't really mean anything, just changes the click value of the adjustments; only an issue on an unfamilar rifle).
One more thing on sitting positions: The cross legs (left over right) is the most stable sitting position, and when used with skill, can probably be more steady than sitting (not prone) with a bipod, simply because your whole, tight body is the support, and is not compromised by having to loosen up to accomodate a bipod, or whatever.
a second choice for those of us who aren't as young and pliable as we once were can be the open leg position, which is essentially the sitting position Gooch described, but instead of crossing the legs, bring the out in front of you (kind of like the position Gundersen's left leg is in in that picture, but with both legs). Then rest your elbows on your legs in that higher position just as you would for the low seated position. Works pretty well and is preferable in most people to the single raised leg as it gives you good support for both elbows.
A third alternative in the crossed ankles position, which is similar to the one just described, but you cross your ankles. I don't find this one as steady as the other two. I think when you use it you start heading into holding-it-up-with-your-muscles territory, and it starts getting wavy fast.
On another note, I saw a show last night where a Cadet at the Army Acadamy who leads a "Respect for Others" class points out that all through history wars have started out because of one thing: A communication problem. I guess she forgot about that whole religious and ethnic hatred thing. Not to mention greed. But I guess if we all just learned to LISTEN to eachother, like the new Army does, we could avoid war all together. We could just head over to Serbia and have an encounter group, and point out to the Serbs that they need to LISTEN to the ethnic Albanians and try to understand them better, then their hatred would just float away on the winds... No wonder we are so reluctant to send in ground troops. They might get their feelings hurt by those rude Serbs. Enough for now. I just thought some of those Acadamy dweebs were a bit too PC for ANYBODY'S good.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 13:12:50 (ZULU)
Big Gunn,
Sounds like you do some of my kind of shooting. As far as .338 Lapua goes, i've worked with and shot every .338 made, that's commonly known except the H&S Takedown .338 Lapua. Just finished developing tactical data tables for Dakota Arms for their .338 Longbow gun. In my humble opinion, the very best .338 made. I will email you off this website a picture of a 1400 yard target. The gun shot under a minute, all the way to 1600 yards, where the bullet went subsonic and therefore unstable, keyholing 2 of 3 shots. Their load is a 300 grain sierra matchking at a velocity of 2850 fps. The developed the load at Dakota Arms and they use Norma brass. The interesting part is that they do very little case prep. It's like factory match ammo, using the very best components. The gun has a special steel blend, Lothar Walther barrel. When I had this particular gun, the round count was over 1500 rounds. And still smokin'. There have been comments made and written about the .338 being the filler between 7.62 and .50. There is no comparison, for anti-personnel shooting the .338 is the STATE OF THE ART. The bullet is super-sonic farther, and for long range precision, that is usually the determing factor, provided the gun/ammo combo is precise. (Under 1.0 MOA off the bench). Am going to develop a high velocity load for the gun that uses a Nosler B-tip bullet at 3350 fps for limited range counter sniper work. The real kind of counter sniper stuff, not the police department stuff. It will be designed to defeat the need to find precise ranges out to 900 yards to so. After that the steep fall angle of the high velocity bullet won't matter. It will occur past the guns intended engagment envelope. Hope this helped. Take care. Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha@aol.com>
USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 14:07:44 (ZULU)
Can anyone ID this ammo
7.62mm, 147 grain boat-tail hollowpoint, NALC A169
This is all the info I have (from an instruction).
Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 14:12:25 (ZULU)
Does anyone know of a source for NDM-86 308 Win magazines?
Part two if not does anyone know if aftermarket magazines are availiable?
J Brown <jcbrown@gte.net>
Evans, GA, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 14:43:26 (ZULU)
In a never ending search for fun things to do I have been tracking Two hundred .223 cases usde in a HK93. I am now loading them for the fourth time and have lost a total of eight to sever dents at the half way up the case. Tha sizing is still cleaning up the srations on the neck and this time all are just at the case gauge limitso trimming next time out will be required.
I know this is a past subject here but I started this project based on a lot of speculations being kicked aroud here. And any excuse to get to the range will do.
On the .308's, I'm going out today with them for the third shooting and othere than the extra time cleaning them of the burnt powder marks I have not had to toss any yet.
For a safty reasons I'm going to stop at six shoots and retier the cases.
Be safe and have fun.
MJ
MJ <montereyjack@kmenterprises.com>
Monterey by the bay, Calif., USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 14:58:18
(ZULU)
Jim asked:
"Can anyone ID this ammo: 7.62mm, 147 grain boat-tail hollowpoint, NALC A169"
If I'm not mistaken, it's military issue from the Lake City Armory with the DODIC # A169.
I could be wrong. I was once before!
Cheers to all,
Mike
Mike A. <moamike@ix.netcom.com>
WA, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 15:26:42 (ZULU)
Test:
Okay, 3 pics of sitting shooting positions... The first one was the normal cross-legged shooting position. Left over right, right over left, left-handed, right-handed, whatever you like.
If you can't get cross-legged you might want to try crossing your ankles.
If that doesn't work, you can try the open-leg position, too. Not as stable, as André pointed out, but it works.
L8R,
Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 16:01:35 (ZULU)
Subject: Physical training and techniques
I have been inactive from shooting since leaving the Infantry 10 years ago. Once a member of our unit's rifle team (A2's only, nothing fancy), I was amazed at how poor my control had become with poor exercise habits when I recently returned to the range, even in pistol.
Overall cardiovascular fitness being the obvious primary key to success,
what other breathing/positioning tips do you offer to maximize accuracy?
I was suprised that there wasn't an entire section on the Hot Tips/Cold
Shots list for this area of discussion. You can all the fancy equipment
in the world, but in the hands of a poor breather etc, it's all worthless...
This will help others more than me, but I'd appreciate accounts from others
who have returned to shooting and regained or bettered their old form.
Thanks all.
The Collector <remedyray@hotmail.com>
OH, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 16:24:44 (ZULU)
Collector dude,
Exercise is important in just about any physical endeavor and if
one wants to do well, some for of C-V stimulation is in order. I am well
known for doing things the hard way at work. If there is an elevator, I
use the stairs and wind sprint them. ( Yes Al, BIG CITY by-gawd does have
such methods of conveyance!).
I try to walk regularly at work, dabble with a mountain bike every
so often, and practice both dynamic breathing exercises (Sanchin type)and
breath regulation (B.R.A.S.S)when I'm "bored" at work. Same goes with dry
fire, practice with airguns,and holster work, but unfortunately not to
the extent as "pre-kid" peteR had time to do.
You are what yer eat, and you fight as you train.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 16:55:08 (ZULU)
Sitting; I've always wondered why anyone would want to use this position? If there is no cover Prone is superior. If there is low cover creedmore is much steadier. It is hard to get into and hard to get out of. Unless one's back is supported it is not only uncomforable. But it stiffing to old farts with bad bones. The Army manuals say it is not good due to the fact you are an excellent target. Did anyone ever use this for sniping or combat. This is a target shooters revenge against the world position. Ok straighten me out here lest I perish!
B.rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 16:55:17 (ZULU)
Been trying to get a person at the number for the Data book and left a msg. do they return the calls? Did that on Thursday and just fax a order off today hope it works. Gooch, any thoughts on it?
Mike <Mikeroyexc@aol.com>
Florence, Mt, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 17:00:10 (ZULU)
Collector,
More important, I think, than pure cardiovascular fitness is just plain old technique. We tend to forget that the basics are the basics because they work, and we start to fudge here and there for comfort's sake, and pretty soon we are only shooting at 75% of what we once could. Fitness can help you have a slower heartbeat and breathing in a given situation (which is certainly important), but if basic technique eludes you, you still won't shoot well.
The things I see most often with poor shooters:
Front sight focus. (assuming open sights) It amazes me that this most basic of ideas seems to elude most shooters. I hear all kinds of explainations about how "I look at the target, then the front sight, then the rear," etc. Even some good shooter claim that their eyes wander back and forth! The ONLY sight picture that really works is front sight focus. Everything else is just shooter insecurity and will not help in the end. Focus on the front sight, only the front sight, and you will increase your open sight ability immediatly. It may seem counterintuative, but it's true. If you are using a scope, learn to center the image and focus on the reticule.
Tight shooting positioning. Whether you choose to use a sling or not, you MUST get into the tightest most stable position possible. This may take practice and effort, but the tighter and more stable the position, the tighter the group. If you choose to use a sling, don't be afraid to use it properly. Too tight can be bad, but having it so loose that a racoon could crawl through the loop along with your arm is pointless. If you are shooting prone, you may want to see if the lower position you can get without the bipod is actually more stable than a bipoded position (you may be surprised).
Trigger control. Most people have ZERO trigger control. Many people who consider themselves good shots have ZERO trigger control. If you can see someones trigger finger move backwards before the shot, chances are they are just pulling the trigger, rather than controlling it. A light trigger pull is nice, but if all that means is that you can just yank the trigger back without pulling the rifle around, you have accomplished very little. A light trigger will help you better maintain the sight picture as you pull it and will speed up your pull time, but you still should not be actively deciding when the shot will fire, only when you start or stop pulling. Note that I say "pull" not "squeeze." If you "squeeze" a trigger that means that you are squeezing it between something. If it's your trigger finger and the rest of your hand, you are moving the rifle. Your grip hand should be tight and steady. Your trigger finger should move completely independantly. When you pull a trigger, you do so by ONLY moving the trigger itself to the rear without affecting the rest of your grip hand one bit. You're not squeezing anything. Try slightly cupping your hand. Now move your trigger finger. See the rest of your fingers move slightly? Your goal is to eliminate that and develop the control to be able to operate your trigger finger by itself. Trigger control does not end with the primer ignition, it ends when the bullet leaves the rifle.
If you can master the above with some degree of skill, the rest is not too hard. 90% of the people I see shoot at the range can't use open sights to save their lives, shoot like they are sitting in a Laz-Y-Boy and yank the trigger back like the amount of force they use will somehow speed up the bullet. Then when they shoot 10" groups at 100 yards, they think it's the best that rifle can do. Remember, the goal is to have the least amount of movement possible while observing a perfect sight picture involving front sight focus. Then the bullet will hit where you aim.
For breathing, you will just need to experiment. Consitency is the key (along with avoiding holding your breath too long). depending on distance and position, it may affect you more or less (i.e. it will be less of an issue, prone at 100 yards, than offhand at 50 yards) Some prefer to hold a full breath, some let out half, some all. I tend toward the latter, just because it's more consistent for me. But I say again, worrying about exact breath control won't help if you are already waving around in the wind, or pulling the rifle along with its trigger. I don't mean at all to minimize breathing's import. It is important, but the above is most important and shouldn't vary from person to person. Fisrt things first.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 17:41:06 (ZULU)
Is the Sav 110 FP worth the money as an entry Sniper Rifle. If so what would be a good combanation. I like the looks of the Borris Tactical/target. let Me know. Peacemaker@maranatha.net
Gary Hodge <Peacemaker @maranatha.net>
Pikesville, Md., USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 17:58:39 (ZULU)
B. Rogers:
You're absolutely right about the sitting position: re my earlier comment concerning the exact same thing:
"Personal commentary: On a range, that's all fine and good. But when
you're shooting when it counts, if you're not shooting from the prone there'd
better be a damn good reason why. You're a smaller target, and back to
the jist of your original comment, yes, the supported prone position should
inherently be advantageous over the sitting. Obtaining good cover and concealment
is much easier when the worms see your belly out their skylight."
I wouldn't go into a sitting position anywhere except on a range. I would, in almost all real-world circumstances, be in a prone position, even behind cover.
I would almost suggest, however, that sitting would be preferred on a range. If you're used to dropping into a prone position, you might not watch you p's and q's. If you use the sitting position on a range, the unusualness of the position will force you to go through a self-check, and might eliminate some error. I suppose, though, that it's the same with anything, like this trigger control / breathing comments: pay attention to all the little things, while keeping the overall objective in mind... make sure everything is in tune towards the goal of putting the round where you want it.
You were in boot camp at one time: remember all those little mantras they made us remember? "Perfect sight alignment", "perfect sight picture", "perfect natural point of aim", "perfect breath control", "perfect trigger squeeze"... Just a checklist of all the factors that go into making any shot be either a good shot or a bad shot.
Okay, I'll quit rambling... ;-)
L8R,
Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
K-town, TN, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 19:44:45 (ZULU)
OOPS!
André's right, I shouldn't have said "trigger squeeze"; it is a "controlled trigger pull". My bad....
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
K-town, TN, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 19:49:24 (ZULU)
For the record, I agree that in a sniping situation, your position will be neccessitated by your combat task and personal risk as a counter-target. Obviously you will need to minimize your position as much as possible. I make no recommendation of position in my last posting, as the technique of accurate shooting should be independant of your shooting position. What works sitting, should work prone. Collector should keep this in mind. However, for obvious reasons, I would suggest that a sniper should be able to shoot from ANY position in an optimum way. You may not choose to make a 100 yard offhand shot within one head of angle, but you may need to someday.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls (buy a vowel), MN, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 20:16:30 (ZULU)
Pablito,
I just read your post about using IMR 4895 in the M1A. What brass
are you using? What kind of velocity did you get with the IMR 4895? What
was the over all length of the loaded round?
I have been using IMR4895 for over 6 years in several different
M1A's with great results. I have found that as long as I use LC Match brass
and Federal Match Primers or Remington 9 1/2 primers, that 41.5 grains
of IMR4895 is very accurate and reliable. Seat the bullet to same Overall
length as Federal 308 GoldMedal Match. This usually results in a muzzle
velocity of about 2570-2600 FPS. As always, work your way up to the desired
velocity.
If I use 41.5 grs of IMR4895 in say, a Federal Match case, it will
not be reliable or accurate. Found out it took about 42.0 to 42.5 grs due
to larger case capacity to achieve the same velocity of about 2600fps.
Have fired about 11000 of these loads in about 6 yrs with no bad surprises.
The Federal brass is more uniform in the neck wall thickness. It
is not cheap, but it works very good. For long range shooting I only use
new unprimed brass, as it will have less neck "run out" than fired
cases.
Just work your way up to about 2600fps. The velocity does not have
to be exact, but somewhere in this area will give the best performance.
If you want to load the Sierra 175 Match Kings, reduce the powder
charge by about 1.0 gr and work up to about 2600fps. The 175's are better
for longer ranges. Seat to the same overall length as the 168's.
I have tried Varget, and N140 in the M1A. The burning rate is a
little slower than IMR4895. I am not aware of any gas system probs with
these powders.
Best of Luck with the M21.
Later,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 20:17:15 (ZULU)
Is the Remington 40XB (.308)worth the $1000+ I am about to pay?
Uses: 300-500yard accuarcy, hunting, under 1MOA's
Thanks for any and all pro's and con's on the subject.
Wallace.
SSG Wallace <emailmeman@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 20:30:30 (ZULU)
Andre on Air Force Marksmanship:
For the late 70s, USAF Academy Cadets fired a 100 round
Craig <rtas@hotmail.com>
Motor City, MI, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 22:07:25 (ZULU)
Ron Taylor:
Break that SR-25 in right and feed it good ammo and it will treat you well. I got a lot of funny looks and jokes when I first showed up at the tactical match with mine, but there aren't many bolt guns that can keep up with it. Last weekend in Sacramento we held our second "No Bull Sniper Match". I was the only one with a semi-auto out of 15 shooters, but I placed third in the match. (Poor Pigpen, his Savage broke halfway through the match.)
If you have misfeeds on the last 2 or 3 rounds in the magazine, try
disassembling the magazine and putting the spring in backwards. For some
reason, Knights designed it with too much tension at the front of the cartridge,
which tends to tilt them to the point where the bolt can't catch the case
head. It's the only fault I've found in the design, but I've heard others
who had the same problem, so keep an eye open for it.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 22:08:03 (ZULU)
Just a comment on all these off hand positions from a 48 year old man out of the service for 25 years. If you guys are going to get serious about the Carlos Match I suggest you get your butts out there and start sweating them off. All these uncomfortable and unsteady positions become a lot easier when you get in shape. I'm sure Gooch isn't going to carry you through the stress course or up that high angle of fire tower. And believe me now that the weather is better those 20 year old women roller bladers and joggers make running much more interesting. Run 40 miles a week and do 8 - 10 hours of exercise and you will be suprised you'll be able to put your head up your butt and shoot comfortably.
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 22:59:11 (ZULU)
Shooting positions. A standard prone position as practiced on the range is one of the rarest positions in combat. Cover and concealment usually dictacts the use of either a modified kneeling or standing position. A fighting hole (hide) position is a modification of the standing position. Ask yourself this, how many times do you use a prone position hunting? Don't argue with me on this as this comes right out of USMC doctrine. Ask guys who have been through sniper training at a school and you will find a lot of guys who had to use sitting, kneeling or standing when firing on stalks because thier cover wouldn't allow a prone position. Remember cover and concealment, whether twigs or bricks, deflect bullets.
Sitting position was designed for shooting down slopes. Open legged was the most common technique. Originally sandbags were placed on the firing line so a shooter could have his ass higher than his feet as when shooting down hill.
On the TRGT deal. Remember this venture is an addition to our regular
jobs so there may be a delay in answering fax's and the like. Have patience,
its a sniper thing.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, May 17, 1999 at 23:08:25 (ZULU)
Gooch makes an interesting point about the prone. Can't speak about man hunts, but so far as shooting 4 legged things, only things I have taken from prone [that I recall] was a turkey...bizarre sub canope thing happening there; and a couple of deer in plowed river bottoms. Go lay down in any woods tomorrow...see what you can see.
Btw, you road hunters can modify the sitting position a bit by laying one leg flat against the seat back, fire off the posted left knee...Oh, MikeM says to make sure both windows are down:) Just kidding.
Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 00:33:27 (ZULU)
To Leslie: How in the world did you do the pic posting thing, I have never seen it done here before! Please email me with details. I am impressed.
More on sitting:
I have done a lot of target shooting, I shot in the National Champioships
every year from 1978 to 1992. As a consequense of this I have been able
to observe alot of world class shooters use the sitting position as well
as the not quite world class. I have never seen a world class shooter put
20 consecutive shots into a 3 inch circle at 200 yards. I dont think it
has ever been done. Some might go 15 out of twenty I dont there has ever
been a perfect 20x. Of course there was no tripod involved. But if there
is a way to shoot like a world class prone shot from the sitting supported
position, Gooch's way is the only way. It must be the cross-legged postion.
Boots on the ground, thighs resting on the boots, elbows resting on the
the knees, (not the kneecaps) to build a solid support for the rear of
the rifle. Cross ankle wont get you there, neither will the open legged
position. Dont get me wrong, these other positions are useful for short
range. but you will never get prone style groups from them. Myself, I dont
like the crosslegged position for shooting rapid fire with a M1A because
it puts my eyeball to close to the rear sight and scratches up my shooting
glasses, I might have to invest in a adjustable buttplate to get the proper
eye-relief when shooting a scoped rifle also, but to be able to shoot prone
style groups from the sitting position would be a nice tool to put in the
old tool box.
And Gooch, you were right about the tripod being too high, that was
my whole problem.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 00:34:33 (ZULU)
Gooch,
I don't want to argue, but I disagree. Standing is an unsupported position, but if you're in a fighting hole, you're supported. Even though you are standing, it's mechanically more akin to prone.
You went through the same infantry school I did... The instructors busted your chops for playing hero if you fired from anything other than prone. After school, out with the battalion, whether we were doing MOUT or patrolling through brush, you hit the ground to take cover then returned fire. Anything else got you shot by the other platoon. You fired around building corners, trees, etc. Albeit you have to modify your position to get up and over any roots, it's still a prone position.
Deer hunting? Well of course you don't get prone. A) Deer aren't shooting back, so you don't need cover, only concealment; and B) Most people anymore are shooting from a treestand, so they are sitting up out of the deer's line of site.
Of course that doesn't cover all situations. Many times you have to shoot from the kneeling to get a shot out of a window or off a roof. But if you come under fire, you're more open than you need be if you're not prone.
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 00:43:17 (ZULU)
Data Book Update:
Many thanks for your orders! We are being inundated with faxes, e-mails, and phone calls and our first printing is nearly sold out. (And we have yet to buy advertising in Tactical Shooter.
I know some of you have had difficulty in making contact. The best way to contact us is through e-mail. The next best way is by fax. We will respond within in 12-16 hours. Getting us on the phone is hard, because we all have day jobs and are spread out throughout the U.S. Plus, it is often as difficult to return your calls as it is to get us on the phone. We do have voice mail and will try to call you back.
Stay Safe!
Operations Partner
Operations Partner <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 01:28:24 (ZULU)
Thanks all for Commentary on sitting position. While hunting the song dogs I prefer a love affair with a "soap weed" (yucca), excellent to camo in and shooting off one or both knees in a kind of Creedmore. Prone is quite unhandy down hill as Gooch suggests or at least I believe that is what he saying. To top a hill in prone is to wave a flag at ole wiley! Presumably an enemy sniper would work the same angle. Sitting seems to be the position that Dogs prefer for spotting hunters. If I must (and there's no way to brace my back) and when I have the tripod I simply place the whole thing across my legs and sit where it is leaned forward on as a body brace one arm completly around the thing the rifle is held and fired with the tripod between my arms. Rifle doesn't touch the tripod as a rule. A bit hard to describe and not pretty on a range. This allows the ability to shift shooting position as dogs don't care if they get you off balance. But of course I miss once in a while. How do you cozy up to a Yucca? Very carefully or course. Actually a ALICE is a not bad to lean back on for a Creedmore shot across the knees. Gooch is probably fresh out of Yucca back there but fallen brush and tree trunks works pretty good not to mention rocks and wash outs. I've made some pretty fair shots with a foreend propped on a pair of Rubberized Binos where there is no bipod or anything else. Like a January wheat field. Once got lucky in a organized shoot and took some guys by shooting off the HK clip in a HK91. Point is that any rest is better than no rest. Even the unpredicable clip shot. The good thing about those Tripod Camera rests is that they adapt to any height and brace combination. Like shooting through a forked tree trunk or over tall grass. I hate packing them but they are worth it if you don't know what kind of shot your taking in the ultimate end. Don't take my word for it...give me yours... over!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 02:29:15 (ZULU)
Thanks to all for the discussion on shooting positions. This should help make a shaky old Wyoming prairie shooter a bit more stable on those long shots over the sage brush. I try to use some semblance of prone position, but that's not often possible in the sage brush. My sitting positions should now be more stable thanks to the discussions.
Concentration: Not realizing that you've been laying in catus until
after you drop that nice antelope with one well placed shot. Or is that
stupidity?
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 02:50:59 (ZULU)
To All: This is a bit off-subject, but you might want to go to http://www.worldnetdaily.com and scroll down to Geoff Metcalf's article about President Clinton's latest Executive Order banning the importation of foreign-made guns, ammunition and etc. If it's true, it's SERIOUS!
Just a thought from out here in Missouri, where we're protected from the gun nuts by a buncha liberal Democrats!
PaulS
PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 03:04:42 (ZULU)
Mike in Wyo; It may not be smart but it sure is common.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 12:19:34 (ZULU)
Leslie - Prone is prefered like you said but is slow to move from and your vision is often obscured by vegetation or cover. While the basic 03 is trained to hit and roll at Pendleton/Lejuene/PI it doesn't do much good when you can't see the enemy. (I was one of those guys teaching the stuff by the way.) Noise don't scare anyone. Ask the Somali's. Granted its AO specific but look at a lot of the films of grunts in RVN or any other region excpet the desert, and you will see a minority being able to shoot from the prone. Hey, like I said, the prone is preferred but you can't always use it in a lot of surprise situations (thats why I mentioned hunting gyrene).
Prone in MOUT and many other situations actually provides you more danger of being hit than the kneeling or standing when real rounds are fired not just blanks and MILES. Rabbit rounds and secondary projectiles will follow the ground and impact in your torso/face prone while if kneeling/standing they go in the legs and in actuality if cover is used properly nothing is exposed except the head and shoulder for just a second.. If I have to engage a target firing prone around a corner I'll shoot low in front of him and still hit him. Granted projectiles can follow walls as easily as the deck but thats why you vary your position when firing around corners. Prone doenst allow you to bob/peek around cover fast enough and it is slow to move in and out of, your helmet is pushed over your eyes etc. Marines going through Security Force School (guarding ships/bunkers) are taught to go kneeling (one and two knee)more than prone for these reasons.
Obviously if you are a sniper providing overwatch for situations like this you will try to establish your position from a site which allows you to use the prone.
THe standing position can be supported just like any other position and the fighting hole position is more akin to the standing than the prone as you are standing on your feet with little behind the rifle except the shoulder. In a prone, you have the whole body behind it if you are doing it right. Granted your elbows are supported in a fighting hole and you can lean on the edge of the pit, but you are standing unless your hole is too shallow.
I guess my main point is that a tactical shooter needs to train using all four basic positions (five if you can use the squat) and learn to adapt them to various tactical situations. Even the USMC has recognised the viability of the kneeling over other positions. When we modified the KD course we changed the 300 yard sitting to a 300 yard kneeling. Hey, I hate the frickin kneeling! On KD it hurts and wobbles like an SOB, but when supported in tactical shooting its a good position when adapted properly.
Its a silly point to go back and forth on unless we are just really
too bored to do anything constructive.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 14:18:42 (ZULU)
Guys have to agree with Gooch,
on the positions thing. In a school environment, very few shooting positions are in the traditional prone. One of the most common things that gets a busted on a stalk is crawling "under" a shrub or a bush and then trying to shoot from there. One of the best stalkers i seen was a kid from the 82nd. Never shot from under any concealment, would stand back 8-10 feet, USUALLY KNEELING. he would shoot through a small loophole in the concealment shrub or bush. It is nearly impossible for an observer to see back through that small 3 or 4 inche hole to spot a shooter. This guy was never caught, and usually took off his ghillie top just to proove a point. Sling supported, sitting is rock solid when done well. At SOTIC the NRA 3 positions are taught for marksmanship with irons and also to be incorporated into tactical positions later. Headshots at 300 yds with optics and sitting with a sling,,, easy stuff.
Gooch is right, the traditional prone position as envisioned, is
rarely a 50% solution. Unless the shooter arrives in the area first and
sets up his ambush first, he will have to adapt his location and position
to THE TARGET SITUATION. That means he takes when he can get. In my humble
opinion.
trigger50 <Dmicha@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 15:22:53 (ZULU)
Shooting Positions: The bottom line is The closer to the ground the more stable you are. The closer to the ground the longer it takes to get into and out of a position. Prone is excellent for static long range targets. Standing is for quick close range. Kneeling is a good way to make a smaller target out of yourself and yet have stablityyou can move from quickly. Seated is for shooting over obstacles, it is very stable and slow to get into and out of again its for static targets. Know them all and pracrice.
Bruce "Old Dog" Varmints are small not the size of Rover.
Gooch have you sewn your fingers together yet? I can't wait to try that Data Book. Hint
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 15:28:47 (ZULU)
Sand Socks: Had a less than desirable experience with using organic materials for fillers. After three days of rain, there's nothing like a big soggy, slimy, swelled up handful of rice filled sand sock.
Brad <brad.scott@frco.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 16:07:07 (ZULU)
Gooch: Excellent points. Firing in front of the target and walking it in, watching the debris fly... something blanks and MILES can't teach.
I think you pegged it when you emphasized adaptability. If you know and can readily use all the positions, you've got a decent bag of tricks, and can use whichever is more appropriate for the setting.
I'm not trying to be silly with this back-n-forth (although I'm notorious for playing devil's advocate). I've got ideas in my head, and if I can learn a better method, that's really great; but the only way to really get rid of older ideas it to argue the points and lose... then I can learn the replacement for them, and take them to heart...
The really good thing about the knee position: you're a smaller target than standing, more stable than standing, and more mobile than prone. Can't argue with the facts when stated that way.
Guess I need to practice from the knee some more...
L8R,
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 16:28:34 (ZULU)
ohhhh What a setup!
Al O. Is kneeling really your favorite position, I heard it was ? ;-)
Thanks for the great thread guys, I dun learned somefin agin!
Marius Spellchkr?
Have a great day dudes!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cItY, bY-gAwD, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 16:56:15 (ZULU)
Dennis (Spud)...I saw your post regarding the springfield scope mount for your M1A. Is it a 1st or 2nd generation mount? Have you procured a brookfield mount yet. I would interested in your results. You may keep me from making a mistake. I'm close to buying a mount for my M1A too. Still shopping. Please keep us posted. Anyone know if Tee shirts for the 2nd Carlos Hathcock benefit will be made available this year. I may not be there but I can sure can spring for a couple of shirts. Last comment: been reading here for over a year now and I find this to be a SUPERIOR site...Thanks Guys
JFD
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 17:57:04 (ZULU)
Laser Rangefinders? What one do you think is best for a .308 PSS shooting maximum distances? How far does your rangefinder work effectively in your experience?
tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
conway, ar, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 20:04:51 (ZULU)
To ALL scoped M1A/M14 users:
I've seen 2 negative responses from people regarding Springfield mounts. I would appreciate some input and your opinion on the following mounts:
1. Springfield
2. Brookfield
3. A.R.M.S
Regarding Sheppard scopes. Is the literature on the scope fact or hype? Opionions?
JFD
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 20:37:55 (ZULU)
Laser Rangefinder Question----
The Bushnell 800 seems to be the choice of most on a budget, but the Simmons and Tasco are in the same ballpark and actually less expensive. If money is not an option, look at the Swarovski Optik or the Leica Geovid.(2-3 G's). there are a few military surplus lasers out there, but they are hard to find and expensive.Just my 2 cents, hope it helps....
OUT HERE
Jamison <Longshot1000@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 20:42:50 (ZULU)
Organic Shooting bags! Put the rice in a sandwich zip lock before you put in the sock. Ever tried Peanut Butter in a Sandwich bag? You can go for days on patrol. You can fill it with sand when you run out of peanut butter and rice. 2 Bags 1 sack.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 21:16:13 (ZULU)
the Sheperd; I recently tested lived up to it's claims. It is extremely fast and easy to estimate range with. The only complaint I had was that some of the rings (closer ranges) kind of overlap causing some clutter around 400 yards. The one shot zero absolutly worked for me and the Range rings were right on the money. Lens were a little foggy around the edges compared to Leupolds but the center is clear enough for the purpose. They seem rugged enough but that has yet to be proven to me. It seems to me that it is far simpler and easier to employ than the Mil Dot system. That should start another donny brook but so be it!
B.rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 21:22:42 (ZULU)
JFD...
I recall we did the Sheppard scope thing a while back. They are very
pricey for what you get, and a local dealer stopped carrying them because
they were almost impossible to get repaired, and weren't too rugged. I
think the Springfield Armory scope is a better deal, money wise, and I
like their ranging reticle better… the Sheppard gives you 9" circles, the
Springfield gives you 3", 5", 10", 18", 24" and 36" references, plus an
internal bubble level, to deal with cant, which I like…
You should look at both in person. Some think the field on both
of these is too cluttered with "stuff"… I would recommend the Brookfield,
or A.R.M.S. mount, and pass on the Springfield mount… it's a dog-a-roo
Laser Range Finders…
I have a Bushnell, which I find very disappointing… it's good for
about half of what they say, on the best day of it's life.
Also have a AN/GVS-5, military unit that is good for 6.2 miles on a bad day… and I love it, except it burns the 'Yote pelts at under 1800 mtrs.
If you just want to play, get one of the "800" units, and count on it for 350 to 400yds, but, if you want a unit that will reliably read to the max range of the .308, NONE of the cheap units will do it. Save your dimes and get the Leica Geovid, or one of the Mil units… they do play well and you can use them as far as you can shoot.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 22:06:43 (ZULU)
Case lubes???
I re-sized 3000 pieces of .308 LC this weekend, and besides the charlie horse, the bad part is getting off the greasy kid stuff with Zylene, and MEK... there are better ways to get stoned.
Has anyone experence with the water soluble case lubes for heavy duty sizing???
answer via e-mail, it's not worth Roster space.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 22:26:17 (ZULU)
ON RANGEFINDERS,
Both a buddy and myself have the Tasco 800 rangefinders and in short,
save your money. We cannot range a full size barn over 350-400 yards or
a real estate sign sized target past 250 yards, so I would hate to see
what the Tasco 400 could do, it may only be good out to 200 yards, maybe.
At the risk of starting a riot, There is no way a Tasco 800 could range
a man sized target past 200 yards and that may only work if the target
was standing still and wearing tin foil or holding a mirror. We cannot
range moving targets like a slow moving (walking)deer at all , I am very
disappointed in the unit, what a waste of $220.
PAUL <pcirco@home.com>
NEBR, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 23:13:04 (ZULU)
Hey Guys,
I am trying to locate a cheek piece for my Remington Police. I have not been able to find this item listed or in stock anywhere. My eye needs to come up about 1/2 inch to get a good sight picture, I hope you guys can help, I'm about at my wits end!!! I would prefer a lace on type but I would appreciate info on anything availiable. Thanks in advance for your help.
James Castagno <jimgraphics@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 23:24:45 (ZULU)
I have a bushnell 800 and have ranged to 758 yrds.There will be somethings that do not reflect well. If you can do it set it up to scan and hit everything around it that will scan you can get very close.
Mike <mikeroyexc@aol.com>
Florence , MT, USA - Tuesday, May 18, 1999 at 23:55:27 (ZULU)
A question put to all... I am a reserve deputy in a county here in Oregon and have to purchase all my own equipment. I am looking for a fragmentation vest for sale. Preferrably the British body armour. Any leads would be helpful. Thank you all....
Michael R. <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 01:04:57 (ZULU)
Greetings:
This is my first entry, of what i hope will be many. in typical military fashion I discovered this site shortly before I am due to change duty stations. the information I have seen so far, I have enjoyed, and will try to reestablish contact at my next station.
SSgt kent Partlow (U.S.A.F.) <kent.partlow@kunsan.af.mil>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 01:34:53 (ZULU)
Oh peteR: Yes kneeling is my favorite position when I'm praying that you enter my sight picture which makes my mil reading even that much easier. Ka-RRRAAAK, another limp weeny is a little limper now. I'm gunnin' for you now!! No hiding behind momma coat tails now!!
al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Praying Righteously In the Ever Greening State of , Ohio, USA - Wednesday,
May 19, 1999 at 02:07:30 (ZULU)
To Bruce E. Re Alternatives to Ghille suits.
Bruce, I know diddley squat about Ghille suites. I am just a history buff. The Germans in WW2 had a cute trick that they did with umbrella's. Take a medium size umbrella and remove the cover and half of the ribs to make a semi-circle. An umbrella with a hook for a carry handle works best. Remove half of the ribs so that the umbrella handle will lay flat on the ground. Replace the rain cover with netting. To deploy just stick local weeds and grass into the netting and there you are, your very own portable bush to hide behind. Rumor has it that this little trick will also defeat infra-red heat detectors but I don't see how.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 02:21:10 (ZULU)
I saw all the old past comments about military marksmanship training and had to say something. I'm Air Force Security Forces, we fire for record at least twice a year on our primaries, M9 and M16A2. Our course of fire isn't very difficult, for the 16's we use reduced silhouettes at 25 yds. At air base ground defense school we got to shoot the Army course of fire, with the pop-up targets and what not, that was out to 300 meters if I can remember correctly.
In general we do not fire enough to be totally confident with our weapons. While deployed to Hungary last year we had an "augmentee," I think he was a sattelite dish repair guy, he carried his M16 around like it was going to bite him at any moment. Since he is not listed in a career field that requires arming up, his qualifications are good for two years. But salvation is en route, the powers that be want to implement a training program at our basic training that has every young airman carrying an M16 throughout.
Darren <darren.malott@mildenhall.af.mil>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 02:21:46 (ZULU)
Greetings Gents,
I would appreciate a qualified sniper contacting me regarding operational use of a ghillie suit.
thanks
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 03:15:31 (ZULU)
Rangefinders: I have a Bushnell 800 and a buddy has a Tasco 800. In a head to head ranging exercise the Bushnell seemed far better than the Tasco, (my opinion). On a partly cloudy Wyoming day I was able to range antelope at 420 yards with the Bushnell. The Tasco didn't pick it up till nearly 300 yards. Don't plan on ranging any real targets at more than half of the published range. Sometimes the rangefinders will surprise you and range way out there, but don't plan on it. I have ranged my barn at 990 meters, but who wants to shoot the barn. At the rifle range, I can range steel gongs out to 600 yards on a partly cloudy day and about 500 yards in bright sunshine.
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 03:40:41 (ZULU)
You see you guys are misusing those Range finders. The Bushnell 400 yard model will range targets out to a mile or more. That square aiming box in the center of the lens covers 2 mils. At 1000 yards.
Never mind that LAZER thing unless your bow hunting. IT's good to 100 yards or so on a large animal. Buy you books and buy you books!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 04:10:54 (ZULU)
B. Rogers: Ya mean I wasted my money buying that new Mildot scope and Mildot Master when I could have used the reticle in laser rangefinder? Why didn't ya speak up sooner?
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 04:20:51 (ZULU)
On the subject of laser rangefinders...I bought a Bushnell 800 and it will range a Stop sign 897 yds away day in and out. There are other terrain features it will reliably range out to 700 yds, day in and out but the key is finding a reflective/suitable surface to shoot. A deer or man in camo isn`t reflective enough. I use mine against a large white board as a way to accuratly set up 400-800 yd shooting situations. Works for me...But I still want a mildot reticle!Str8hot
Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
Mi, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 05:14:05 (ZULU)
Does anyone dryfire practice with a Remington 700 action?
Have you had any broken firing pins through this exercise?
Thanks
PS Bill
Thanks for the ghillie feedback, I'm tempted to send it to gooch
for 'trials'.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 05:15:38 (ZULU)
For you guys interested in laser rangefinders, read the review I recently completed on the Bushnell Yardage Pro 400.
Some of the assertions made here by the regular Roster members are correct.Just remember,you get exactly what you pay for in optics.These devices cannot perform miracles when one is needed.
I'm convinced that too many shooters are taking the easy way out by relying too heavily on all of the high tech Star Wars gadgets in the marketplace.
The mil-dot system,although not perfect; doesn't require batteries,won't refuse to work properly for you just because it's raining or snowing,and so on and so on.
Learn how to use the mil system and use the laser as a back up to confirm your mil range estimate.These two items can be used together if necessary to give you the most accurate range estimation possible.
Take Care...
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 05:39:49 (ZULU)
A question on this shooting position topic.
Sorry if I mentioned that if getting in shape means something like busting chops to everyone it means more to me than probably others I guess.
My question: I tried this siting tripod position, it seams to work well with rifle rested on a commercial tripod or arrows tied together with suspension line , but does anyone know if there is a rail or sling swivel adapter to lock the rifle to the commercial bipod mount rather than have to steady everything by oneself. It sems like a gadget like this might work out well for some tactical situations. They make 35mm and vcr camera adapters to do simialar things that screw to the bottom of cameras and vcr's, can't see why it won't work for a rifle forearm adapter or sling swivel adapter.
This really has nothing to do with position, but based on the posted military photos, a 20 year old really fits well into a sitting position with a 5.5 lb M16 weapon, but I dont see any photos of this 20 yr old sitting with a 13lb SWS rifle and trying to steady it. Maybe 7 lb more in barrel heavy makes no difference to someone at 20 yr olds, but to me at over 40 it means a helluava a lot more to try to steady ones self for a the best possible shot. Just my observation.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 05:44:23 (ZULU)
Salutations ladies,
Any comments on why a one piece mount on a M700 7.62 is a superior choice to a two piece system? Is stressing the scope tube the only problem with two piece mounts?
USMC SWS replacement.
Rumour mill from USMC is as follows:
M700 action
welded box mag
pillar bedded
McMillan stock (A3?)with adjustable cheekpiece
adjustable length of pull by stock spacers
hooked butt for non-shooting hand
barrells threaded for suppressor and flash hider/with thread protector
scope Leupold 4-14 with Picatinny mount.
Excellent stuff! Now I might be able to get a cheaper Mkiv
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 06:00:31 (ZULU)
Jim D: Regarding Sheppard scopes. I inherited one with a PSS and shot it for a while. I agree with the comments about the one shot zero, it works. I thought that the reticle was too cluttered, and the stadia lines were way too thick for my uses. They obscure one inch pasters at 100 yards! I now have a Leupold M3LR, which has much better optical clarity, and do not miss the Sheppard on bit. It really does not cost that much more, and IMHO is worth the wait.
be safe
scott woodbury
scott woodbury <longline@worldfront.com>
wa, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 06:01:11 (ZULU)
On rangefinders, stay away from the 400 yard Bushnell. Tried to range a full grown heffer at about 350 yards and it wouldn't. Sold it and bought the 800. Would range a similar heffer at 593 yards. Got a solid read on a plywood storage building at 888 yards. You have got to keep fresh batteries in the unit. I keep two spares in the case.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 12:08:23 (ZULU)
Daryl; yeah send that one to Gooch so he can see what a real Ghillie suit looks like employed on a REAL stealth vehicle system.
Bill Wylde; I'm becoming a menace with that thing you sent me.
Mike; Yeah sorry to have to break the news about that! I realize it's real politically incorrect to be so blunt. But can someone tell me what those buttons are for and where to the batteries go? We've been working on that for about a year now. Presumably the batteries are for night use but I never have saw anything through it in the dark. I can't even see that thing the book calls a beam.
Dry Fire a Remington? Ohmygosh! Never broke a firing pin but i've only been doing it since... lets see when did they start making that thing!
ON the Scope mount thing about one or two piece. If it is lapped or bedded I don't think it matters much. If it's the old Leupold hunting mount that moves or the New Burris Z-rings with the Nylon inserts I don't think it matters at all. But there is room for disagreement..
Sheperd Scopes; Don't disagree with anyones report but there is one thing I forgot to mention about them. The advantage over the MIl dot system for those who have poor close vision is that all the ranging is done inside the tube as opposed to having to consult a calculator, mil dot master, and then raise the scope a good number of clicks. It can be done in poorer light thus making up for some of the other pitfalls of the MIl system. Greatly speeds the operation. This is not to say that the mil dot system can't be used this way by someone able to do mil dot math in his head and use the mil dots for aiming points and elevation However I would find the Sheperd aiming rings better for that purpose than the tear shaped dots. I did find the Sheperd far superior in that regard. I'm off to see the Wizard! From the land OZ...Your humble servant!
B,Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 12:16:29 (ZULU)
Rangefinders, did someone say Rangefinders!
You bet. We use them to long range hunt. Started out with a Barr&Stroud 250 it work great but , some disadvantages to them, two people ranging the same thing two ,different readings, thats not so bad, but boy they are heavy, weight as much as your rifle.So we got with the program, and got us a XLR by NAIT yea just what we needed. small and light weight. We have had it for a while ,I used it to make a kill at 1150 Yds.,ranged the rock 1150 , got on the gun, Bang! ,one dead white tail ,one shot.But like all things this to has its limitations. It dont like ,rain,snow or fog .But I did get it to range out to 2500 Yds. on a dark and cloudy day.
JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH..........
BigGunn <meghgan@penn.com>
Mtn. country, Pa., USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 13:05:17 (ZULU)
As a final thought on the whole training thing (yeah, like I ever have a FINAL though on anything), did anyone happen to catch an Investigative Reports on A&E the other night about Marine Boot Camp? Focus was on that new thing that do at the end called the Crucible, but it also took a look at the main body of training a bit. ANYWAY, the point it was making was the in the Corps now, Women Marines receive exactly the same training as the male Marines (except for a few minor physical requirements). In other words (at least acc. to this show) even WMs have to learn to shoot their M-16s like the men and go through the same basic combat training that every male goes through. At the very least, what I saw on the show was more than some have indicated that they received. (Note: this was NOT true when I was in, but apparently is now. My recollection is the WMs had a slightly shorter boot camp, and while they qualed with the rifle, they didn't get the extensive combat training. I may be wrong there, but that's what I recall.)
I light of the many replies I received, both personal and public, when I opened this subject a week or so ago, I'd say that it's heartening to see that at least one service thinks so highly of basic combat skills that even the women are required to learn them. Though I received no replies from women, I think I can assume that if a male in a non-Marine service received no real marksmanship training, that there is little chance a female would. Maybe in a future war then, the Women Marines can protect the AF bases, while the male Marines go to the front? (Sorry AF, I couldn't resist that!)
On another note, did any of you catch the little article in the last Precision shooting about using the 1907 sling in a new arrangement as a no-pulse cuff sling? Anyone tried it at the range yet. I went so far as to set it up, but I haven't decided whether it may be better or not. (I kind of prefer the old standard setup)
Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 13:05:32 (ZULU)
Fella's, If I remember right the SHeppard (and a few others) use ilttle circles that correspond to a given taret dimension on the target to estimate range. WHile not perfect, the mildots allow you to use any target or object size while also providing alternate aiming points for elevation/windage holds as well as lead points for moving targets.
I like the round dots over the football ones big time.
Sitting position is no problem with SWS. Use a loop sling or one of the undude slings and its a breeze. NRA high power shooters do it al of the time. Its a mandatory skill at SOTIC.
See ya'll at the Hathcock match.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 13:08:31 (ZULU)
I have stayed out of this sitting position thing until now. If you think because you are over 40 you will not be able to shoot from this position, you wont. Not because you can't but because you have mind F'd yourself. I have more Gortex, pins, staples and screws in me than anyone I know and I shoot 98-100% from the seated in HighPower. I teach alot of 20 year old seated and many are too busy using muscle to hit crap from any poaition. It is bone support, sling use, breathing, trigger control and concentration. To practice for seated sit Indian Style watching TV (for the out of shape group) Then practice at the range. When I hit a target it is because I know I am going to hit it. If you wonder if you can you will probably miss.
Buy a good sling and practice. If you like my sling fine, but a 1903 model will work great its just slower and not as stable as the cuff type.
The Undude, Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 14:37:13 (ZULU)
No time to read the roster yet this week.
But I wanted to drop in and let you all know that Tasco's warranty service is what they claim. I sent in a set of 7x50 Waterproofs (the predecessor to the OS-36 Offsore Waterproof) with a few items needing repair. Per their lifetime claim, they took the binoculars in, looked them over, and then REPLACED them with a NEW set of 7x50 OS-36 Offsore Waterproof's! It was easier to simply replace my old set with a brand new one. I have often busted on the quality of Tasco, but in this case I can only off major kudo's for their stance on keeping the customer, ME, happy.
Thought I'd share this with you since I wrote about the newer glass
recently.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 18:48:45 (ZULU)
On the WM issue. I ran those ranges at PI where the WM's trained. My last details there were the WM series's. Besides having them fall in love with the male coaches and crying when they got wet and cold, I would say that they learned to shoot just as well as the males. They were a pain in the ass because you had to be careful how you touched them when adjusting positions and if you got too rough on them they would lock up on you faster than a male private.
Due to their shorter stature and shorter arms (as a whole) we had to modify positions and the little birth control ampules in their arms often hurt them when they used a loop sling.
I must say though that it was a much more mellow range when the females came on board. All those little butts in the prone....... oops!! Did I say that?
Better get out of here before I get a call from Pat "the rat" Schroeder!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 19:33:34 (ZULU)
Just got an email from Gunsite announcing a new 10 round box magazine version of the UARS. "The magazine is a unique design made of stainless steel. It is single stack with long feed lips. This allows controlled feed into the barrel chamber." (It also makes the mag stick out pretty far!) This is for short-action Remingtons, and I'm guessing it's set up for .308 but haven't looked into it further. There's a pic at http://uars.com/home.htm if anyone is interested.
Just picked up a case of Black Hills .308 175gr match (moly) from my local shop - I had them order it for me and it took something like 2 months to get the darn stuff in. Also, the latest SAR says that BH now has a contract to make 73gr(?) Berger 5.56mm (magazine-loadable) match ammo for the USMC shooting team, as well as 80gr Sierra 5.56mm (single-feed) match ammo for the Army team.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
Mostly lurking these days in San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, May 19,
1999 at 20:50:12 (ZULU)
Hey all!!
It's ultra mag mania out there!! Seems like every order I have been getting in lately is either a 300UM, 338UM, 375UM(ones for Jon Sundra), combinations of 300UM with 338UM-375UM take down's. What's the deal here??? What's the dope on these blasters?? Hell, I haven't heard a peep out of a one of ya on these calibers, just wondering what the hubbub is all about. .264UM???? hoo hoo. Zowie!!
later
JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 23:03:12 (ZULU)
Guys!
Is there anyone who's staying at the Robert W Craig Memorial caminggrounds during june training at SMTC. I'm looking for a daily ride to the center.
See you in June!
Stefan
Stefan <stefan@tref.nl>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at
23:15:27 (ZULU)
Mike M.
Got the slings today, thanks. One can recognized their obvious quality at first glance. When your enterprise get to the level where you can order the material for the double sided cameo, please let me know.
Thanks again,
Steve
Stephen Mont. <stepmont@dfn.com>
NM, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 00:18:28 (ZULU)
Rangefinders: I ranged a cow at a bit beyond 500 yards out in the Nevada desert with my Bushnell 800. From the same sighting point, a friend's Tasco was unable to pick it up. For what it's worth.
I've got my plane ticket and car reservations for September at Storm
Mountain. Before I make hotel reservations, does anybody have recommendations?
(Email, please.) The Mountaneer sounds best unless I hear otherwise.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 02:06:41 (ZULU)
On rangefinders, I have a Bushnell 800, and I really believe the only way you will be disappointed...is if you expect it to do more than it should. I have used it 'yote hunting, not to range the 'yote, but to range landmarks in strange areas while setting up. 450 to that point, 600 to the other, etc. I have found that in unfamiliar territory...it is worth the misses it saves on longer shots. Mils would probably do the same thing...assuming you know how big the boulder is, wherever it is. The one I have seems to be accurate enough, although rain and falling snow messes with it a good bit.
Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 03:20:47 (ZULU)
Gooch have you ever tried one of those Sheperds? I was pretty skeptical and I'm still not sure about some things but the thing that impressed me most was the circles (I thought would not be good to shoot through) seemed to work well at 1000 yards. Something I did not expect. AT twilight when you can't see the marks and have to count clicks they really shine. I'm redundant but I think you will be amazed at the speed of ranging if not aquisition of target. The AO sure has to be set though or it dances quite a jig if set to the wrong range. Lense is not quite true. I know that is not what you have trained on but if you have access to one you'd be entertained by it for a test I think. We did a 600 yard coyote the other day. The guy with the Sheperd fired before I got the MIldot math done. He was 10 seconds ahead of my shot at the best.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 03:53:50 (ZULU)
Gents,
For those of you who need Camouflage slings and not painted, dyed or ghillied slings, send your triggers to me for a custom paint job.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
its hard to speak with my tongue in my cheek, - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 03:57:56 (ZULU)
Rangefinders---
I forgot to add last night that I usually only get about 500-600 yds out of my Simmons 800. Highly reflective (read flat, perpendicular, preferably metal) targets work a little farther out. Sounds like the concensus of all the other entries since my first one yesterday. Ranging animals is really tough because the're not really reflective; the same goes for snipers in ghillie suits.Optical rangefinders (Barr & Stroud) are great but heavy and bulky. Like someone said earlier, save your money and buy the Leica Geovid if possible, if you want one to reach the max effective range of your .308.
Jamison <Longshot1000@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 04:10:41 (ZULU)
Hi Guys,
Anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the review you guy's did on
the steiner 8x30 B/ST it is no longer in the review section.
Thanks
Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 04:11:23 (ZULU)
Bolt,
Maybe there was something wrong with that heifer. Gotta go moly coat
some primers in my brass tumbler now. Just kidding.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 04:12:39 (ZULU)
Another laser rangefinder,
Have seen some info requests on laser range finders. I have another one to add to the list. This item is advanced way past the Bushnell and others, but is a bit more money. This is the Model XLR from a company called North American Integrated Technologies www.hait.com
The cost is 1700.00 and they rante to 2200 meters with claimed accuracy of 1 meter at 1500 and 2 meters to 2200 meters precision on the range. 20 hour burn life with AA batteries. However, they are still succeptible to the same environmental effects as all other eyesafe lasers. It takes the non-eyesafe lasers to burn through some of that environmental stuff. By the way, for the operational guys, remember that for 100.00 or so, an electronics guy can build a good laser detector that will provide an alarm to a potential target long before you will even get the data on your gun.
Their phone number is (916) 630-8993. Take care all.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 13:44:23 (ZULU)
Well folks,
Looks like another PO'ed at the world kid whacked out and started taking potshots at people at his high school. This one was in Conyers GA some time this morning. Last I heard was no fatalities, thank God, but about a half dozen injured. This is sure to start another wave of gun control boojois, especially so soon after Colorado. When are these kids going to get some help?? No, no, you've got that all wrong. It's not the poor kid's fault, it's those nasty guns he stole from someone who should have had them locked up. Yeah, right.
Anyway, get ready for it to start rolling down hill.
Hold tight, all.
George
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 15:45:50 (ZULU)
Bill R,
I have to pretty much agree with you on your remarks about the Shepard scope. I had one on my 300WM and it worked as advertised but I found the circles were to close in size after 700 to accurately range a target. I also believe my circles were 18" not nine as someone stated. I was only shooting at IPSC targets so it worked great and there is nothing faster in my view than the Shepard. I also felt the cross hairs were far to thick and I didn't like the short eye relief on my scope. If I was shooting nothing but and 18" wide target I would still probably have one. I think as far as a sniper scope they could hold some promice.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 16:07:43 (ZULU)
You know, this laser rangefinder / Shephard's scope discussion got me thinking... (Oh No!!!) ;-)
All sorts of gizmos are out nowdays, like auto-focus cameras and image stabilizing binoculars, how about a self-setting scope?
I mean, build a rangefinder into a riflescope, and have servos set up so that it automatically dials the range onto the scope as it acquires the distance.
Of course, there would be lots of limitations: accuracy of the range calculation, possible interference from cover, extra weight, power source dependancy, speed of adjustment, etc....
I can't say that I think it would be ideal for a sniper, but it would be interesting to see if it is feasibly possible.
Thoughts?
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
Home of the Vols, TN, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 16:56:59 (ZULU)
Pat I think maybe they have a .22 scope that is a 9" ring model but I'm not sure. I Errored in mailing someone this morning that it was 15" but it is 18". 1/2 mil at 1000 I believe.
Leslie'; I guess anything is possible nowadays as far as miniature electronics goes. However I do tend to Eliminate electronics as being something I want to depend on it the field. Such as carrying a GPS with no Compass or using a red dot or lazer without back up iron sights. I also remember the days when Optics was looked upon with the same distain. One must be careful not to embrase technology altogether I think but at the same time new ideas and methods are happening all the time. The Sheperd Scope has been around for some time but for some reason it doesn't replace the old Mil dot system. There is something for purists in the old MIl Dot method that just won't die. Out here in the Outback of Kansas most view the MIl Dot systems as some kind of new fangled gadget that should be eyed with suspicion. If Leupold would build the same thing into their scopes everyone would go nuts to get one. They would likely have good lens systems and be unquestioned as ruggedness goes.
The fact that Leupold would do it would be enough to get the method accepted because it does work. The Short Eye relief I didn't notice with the .308 model for obvious reasons. But the speed is unquestionable in my book.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 17:52:05 (ZULU)
Bill,
Your advise about having back-up systems is sound. In addition to having a compass to back up my GPS, I also carry some Viagra and Iron Vitamin supplements to back up my compass. Viagra in 1/4 dosage also works good to keep us old guys from peeing on our shoes.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 19:58:59 (ZULU)
Data Book Update:
This morning we shipped the first of the data book orders by Priority Mail (We aren't getting rich off of our S&H fee.) Delays with our credit card company caused a delay. We should have all the initial orders in the mail by Saturday.
We still have a couple of the three-ring version left, along with a number of the regular spiral binder version. Get them now while we still have them. The next shipment is dedicated to some institutional (school) customers.
Stay Safe!
Operations Partner
T.R.G.T. - L.L.P.
Operations Partner <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 20:25:41 (ZULU)
Hi there everyone.
Just for a change, I need some advice. So far I have paid for the barrell, and bought a remington action. I also have made steps to purchase the Leupold scope I want and am well on my way to getting some reloading gear I'll need along with other bits and pieces. What I need now of course, is the STOCK.
The rifle will be chambered for 30-338 with a Remington action. I was thinking of maybe going for Plaster's Ultimate Sniper Stock, but have heard some bad things about it. Your comments would be welcome. Another option I thought about was the HS Precision stocks. I have been told that adjustable cheek-pieces and so on are unnecessary, but this mostly by bench-rest guys. Also apparently a straight stock (one with the top and bottom horizontal sections of the stock are as parallel as possible) gives less perceived recoil.
Any and all suggestions will be welcome, only PLEASE could you e-mail
me? I am working like a dog these days (bills to pay on that rifle...)
and don't have a lot of time to sift through the duty roster. Thanks again,
you guys have always given good advice one and all, which is why I keep
picking your collective brains. Rest assured that once I have that rifle
I'll be willing to tell you all about it.
Regards,
Joe.
Joe <russellp@iafrica.com>
Cape Town, SA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 21:36:47 (ZULU)
To all:
Some of you are familiar with the work I did with JavaScript and the Greenhill formula where you can figure out the twist rate for a given bullet length and diameter. I now have a JavaScript form that will figure out the correct bullet length from the twist rate and diameter.
This is not absolutly correct as it is made on the greenhill formula therefore has all the flaws of the original formula. But for a simple method it should be close. The equation I used is Maximum Bullet Length = 150 *( D*D) / T. Where D=Diameter of bullet and T=Twist rate of barrel. It is out there on my main page for all to use if they want.
Bill M
Bill M <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Thursday, May 20, 1999 at 23:20:31 (ZULU)
Hey folks!!
Bill M:
Good idea with the Greenhill Formula/Java setup, works good with lead round nose bullets. But people, don't bet yer next gun on the Greenhill, lemme tell ya. It's very vague and does not conform to the drag functions necessary to today's spitzers and VLD's(especially VLD's). Especially with today's velocities. Fun to toy with though.
JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 00:12:58 (ZULU)
Hey all,
Thanks for the replies on the body armor, i.e. frag vests. I didn't make myself too clear, sorry... I DO have an A.B.A. level IIIA vest worn underneath the uniform (always...) and am looking for body armor over the top for high risk warrants serving, etc. (Mr. Smith? This is depitty Mikey knocking! I have some papers for you to sign! And a lovely matching pair of bracelets!!!) Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me. Besides, I am a true believer in overkill... Thanks again and anymore leads would be great.
Michael...
Michael R. <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 00:27:27 (ZULU)
On the self adjusting scope. Its a great idea, bad concept.
Think of it this way. THere is no way to have a BDC that is perfect for every rifle/load/temp/barometric presure/angle of fire....shall I go on? DOD has experimented with a scope such as this for years (I saw one at Beltsville, MD around 1985 made by McDonnel Douglas adn it was a neat toy but no cigar. Saw one by IMI a coupole of years ago that used an LED display that lased the target then lit a dot that you put on the target. No fine tune was available.
All a sniper needs is an integral laser range finder (with mil dot reticle for back up and when the enemy has laser detectors etc), leave it to the sniper to adjust the elevation and windage so he can compensate for the above mentioned variables.
My favorite laser is by Svarovski RF2 or someshit. USed it at the Natiohal Guard course and had good luck 95% of the time. Cost is around $2,000 I think. Better than the Leica by the way but less features. Its a monocular, no compass etc. But damn good range finder!
GOoch out
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 01:22:38 (ZULU)
Hey all,
I am trying to find a hard case for transportation to the range, and a soft case for those other needs. They need to fit a Remington 700 P. The problem is that I am just a poor college student and it needs to be done on a budget, and all the dealers here seem to want me to spend a small fortune. Does anyone have any suggestions or feed back?
Ed
Edward <hawaiihawk@aol.com>
Flagstaff, AZ, USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 05:59:35 (ZULU)
How do you remove the operating rod on an M1A? It does not have the cut out on the rail for the connector like an M-14, therefor Iam lost. Can anyone out there help? Thank you in advance for any info you can email me with.
J. Elledge <melchapman@sprintmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 07:14:25 (ZULU)
Riflesmithing Questions:
Got a hair up my arse to put together a bolt gun. My 9 to 5 is as a precision welder/fabricator so I have been trained as a pretty good machinist, including runing a CNC, but I have little practical experience in machining practices related to firearms. I am a RKI, good with my hands, can build/modify anything, and in the past have built AR's and 1911's. I have access to a Bridgport and a Lathe with 6 foot bed.
Particulars: Rem SA 700, McMillian A2 stock inleted for #7 barrel, Stainless match barrel (Shilen, Douglas, ??? Most likely will be ordered from Brownells)
Questions: Reciever. Where can one find a Reciever? Hunt pawn shops for a beater 700 and chuck the stock and barrel in the trash? If going that route, are there any different models/styles of SA Rem 700 actions? Any to avoid, any to look for?
Barrel: Suggestions? Should I start with a blank, or a pre threaded, short chambered barrel?
Machining: I assume bolt lugs and action threads and the like need to be trued because they came from the factory out of wack. If the recuever threads are chased true, does the barrel threads thenneed to be cut oversize to compensate? Where can I find out about machining processes used in riflesmithing (such as what fixtures to make and use, how to hold a tapered barrel in the lathe, etc.)
Learning materials: I would like to add to my library books on this topic. Suggestions? I prefer "shop manual" type books. Lots of facts, drawings, procedures, measurments, etc.
Thanks in advance, feel free to email direct mws@ecom.net
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 07:34:54 (ZULU)
Michael,
I don't know where your going to work as a police officer but a fragmentation vest is pretty much impractical in my opinion. Its not designed to stop bullets and is very heavy and uncomfortable. I wore one for a while in Viet Nam and we usually wound up setting on them, not wearing them. If your concern is safety invest in a "GOOD" vest with the side pannels and a groin protector for going through doors it will stop anything other than a rifle round. Like I said just my opinion. Good Luck!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 11:55:28 (ZULU)
Poor college student Ed,
Doskocil makes a very nice hard case, which is quite similar to the much more expensive "pelican" brand. They call it the "All Weather" case and it goes for $65 or so. Natchez (www.natchezss.com) stocks them.
Rosco
Rosco Benson <roscobenson@earthlink.net>
Beavercreek, OH, USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 12:07:43 (ZULU)
Under fire again. Anti-gun bills being passed, media sensationalizing "assault weapon toting sociopathic teenagers", city sponsored lawsuits, NRA losing political leverage. Rosie tells me guns are bad... must be true. The media wouldn't manipulate the truth and they say guns are bad... must be true. Lawyers tell me the potential is their for massacres, terrorists and because one person gets shot, everyone gets sued and guns are bad... must be true. Our elected officials wouldn't lie to us to further their own political adgendas and Bill tells me guns are bad... must be true(Bill wouldn't lie). A couple of weeks ago, a man to be left unamed called me up and asked to meet for lunch, he said he wanted to talk about Monica and wanted to discuss gun control. We met at a local pub and he told me that he had been having fantasies about unloading a couple in Monica. I wasn't sure if he meant rounds or something else. At this point he got a wild look in his eyes, leapt up on the table, buried his face in his meal and started oinking like a pig. I was forced to mace him, two busboys and the maitre de before escaping.
The question is,"Its 12:01, January 1, 2000... do you know where your Second Amendment is?" Its right there with the first one you say. Well I'm sorry to hear that, because, we lost track of the first one shortly after the second one disappeared without a trace.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Brad <brad.scott@frco.com>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 13:15:31 (ZULU)
Mike S,
Will try to help you out. As far as recievers. Actions can be purchased seperate. Some include Sako (very good, but you need to attach a recoil lug to the front a.k.a. Winchester Model 70 style), H&S Precision Series 2000, very good, about $800.00. (it's a combination of the good features of a Winchester and Remington. Dakota Arms (very expensive, but again, very good. All these are available from Brownells, must must be shipped to a FFL holder. Would recommend any of these above a Winchester or Remington. If you want to stay with factory actions (remington or winchester) I would recommend Winchester. These have a flat bottom with multiple 90 angles that lock up well in the bedding compound (recommend Brownell's Stainless Steel Bed or Devcon with powder steel in it). The flat bottom actions hold their zero better IMHO than do the round actions. The safeties on the Winchester are better as well as the trigger. Winchester triggers can be set down to 2 lbs. without replacing them with an expensive trigger. Remingtons can be worked down this low also, but need a good smith to do that. Avoid the Savage action. It requires machining to set up well. Usually, chasing the threads is NOT necessary, but truing the face of the reciever is definately recommended. Also true the bolt face and the rear of the locking lugs.
It is interesting to note that all of these jobs usually done in a lathe are done in a milling machine by Gale McMillan. He does all of his action work in a mill instead of a lathe.
Barrels: First Brownell's has an excellent book on barrel cutting on page 185 of their #51 catalog. "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Precision Rifle Barrel Fitting". Another website that is very good is www.fcsa.org That's the fifty caliber shooter's association website. Go down the left column to an article on Barrel Fitting by Daniel Lilja. He's one of the top benchrest barrel makers. Good article. When getting a barrel blank, you can go fully threaded and short chambered for the smaller calibers up to .308. Guns chambered for belted magnums should be chambered on site. However, if you are not familiar with chambering and headspacing procedures, send it to someone who is.
Stocks: I prefer the McMillan A-4 or the H&S Precision stocks
(avoid them in the heavier calibers such as .338 Lapua). Another stock
to consider is the David Tubb Carbon Fiber stock. It's a project though
as you must inlet it completely and install all of the hardward such as
buttstock, cheekpiece, rail etc. But it's a great ergonomic stock. Best
i've ever shot. Costs about 575.00. Hope this helps, feel free to email
me for more info.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 14:17:59 (ZULU)
Laser Rangefinders,
I have the Bushnell 800 and I really like it!
It works on targets all the way out to 999 yards (the max reading on the three digit display) and I have adapted mine to fit on a tripod. What I have been doing with it recently is checking the distance to the flag on the golf course. Resting it on the roof of the golf cart I can range to a pin flag at over 350 yards. For those of you who don't play the game that is a very small target and not very reflective, in fact when the wind isn't blowing it is a damn small target.
What I find is best about using it is that after a while my range estimating has significently improved. Sometimes when I'm on patrol or just sitting in my cruiser observing, I'll take it out and practice guessing ranges and checking to see if I am correct. Practice, Practice, Practice!!
I go with the suggestion that if you can't range your target, range somthing near it, I have always found somthing that I can get a good return from.
For those of you who do play golf, wouldn't you love to know just how far the other side of that water trap is so that you don't under club and make a fool of yourself in front of your friends?
Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Magnificent, Cool, Green, Springtime, West Virginia, USA - Friday,
May 21, 1999 at 15:57:19 (ZULU)
Brad: I KNOW I KNOW!! OH OH!!
Ned Beaty?!
Dude, listen to Pablito, that zylene will get to ya after a while.
Trigger50: Will any of these receivers fit a Rem 700 stock?
BruceH
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton/Ft.Sill, Oklahoma, USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 18:04:27 (ZULU)
Bruce H,
I believe that the H&S 2000 action dimensions are the same. I would call H&S though and confirm. It seems that they would keep the externals the same so they wouldn't have to retool the stock's aluminum block. The Sako WILL NOT fit. H&S makes a stock with a block for the Winchester, but for the very reasons that the 90 degree angles lock well in standard bedding, they DO NOT lock well into a v-block. Dakota Arms has a new action also. This is the Model 97, which is almost the same as the H&S Series 2000 visually. Combines the remington and winchester's best features. List cost for the Dakota action is 1000.00 and 937.00 for the H&S action out of Brownell's.
I assume that when you ask if they will fit a 700 stock, you mean one with an aluminum block. If not and it is a stock to be bedded, yes it will fit. Not the Winchester or Dakota 76 action though. The Dakota 97, H&S 2000 will fit a standard stock for a M700 Remington.
The major difference between the Dakota 97 and the H&S 2000 is
that the Dakota uses the controlled claw feeding system. Not sure I like
that because jams are a bit more difficult to clear. The Dakota uses a
non-spring loaded ejector, which lends more towards accuracy of the gun.
The H&S action uses a spring loaded plunger as per the M700 ejector.
Precision shooters do not like this method. My personal recommendation
is the Dakota 97 for the money, if money is no object, use the Dakota 76
for any caliber up to .338 Lapua. Very good stuff. In my humble opinion.
Take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 18:27:59 (ZULU)
Jeff A,
I just mailed your info on the 260, sorry it took so long I was gone this week had to take the wife for a check up, all looked good do it was good news for us.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 18:55:32 (ZULU)
JR. You are absolutly correct when you said that Greenhill is vague, man, try to run some ballistic or plastic tips thru it and it is really off. The copper jacketing we use today will throw it off somewhat. But more to my point was the JavaScript that I wrote, because it is a simple formula it was relatively easy to write. The script that does the original greenhill was among the first things I had done with JavaScript and since it has to do with shooting I thought that out there somewhere maybe someone could use it at least to check out against thier data for fun. I am the type who fiddles with things like cases, bullets and calipers while reading boards so it is perfect for me.
Bill M <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 21, 1999 at 23:02:54 (ZULU)
Last night I had a daddy moment, one of the few since el divorco. Daughter gradiated high schrool. She didn't even trip going up and down the steps. First time i've gotten misty eyed in a long time.
I have a Knight Disc 50 cal. and a PSS stock for sale in the Emporium. Somebody buy them. College payments start June 1!
By the way, have one ex-wife that I would like to give away if anyone
needs one. Damn, four more years.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 01:39:02 (ZULU)
>> "We at the VPC want to thank Congressman Waxman and Congressman Blagojevich for their swift and aggressive response," Diaz said. "They and their staff were as shocked as we were when we learned of this craven effort to sell such lethal guns. I think average Americans will share our fears." >>
"I think average Americians will share our fears."
That just about says it all, doesn't it?
A policy, a method, and a psychological profile all in one tidy bundle.
Note that even though it is .50 caliber guns the politicians are going after this time, the generic term "sniper rifles" is the only description given of the weapon targeted for extinction.
A disgraceful piece of propaganda by a complete moron.
Rob <bigcat@technotribe.com>
Louisville, KY, USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 02:05:43 (ZULU)
Dave; your a genius! They can't take our LAZER range finders away cause we can't play golf! Who says gun guys are stupid, besides Rosie of course.
Rob; Bullseye! Fear yes indeed. Nothing motivates a Yuppie Bureaucrat like his own fear. Wimps take heart! Now if 80% of the population living in fear can just get 20% to surrender their arms. Ho Chi Mien has won again!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 04:01:15 (ZULU)
Hey guys,
Hands up if you own a ghillie suit?
I have just completed reading all the feedback from several sniper style sites. I had been questioning sniping professionals from an international background about the biulding and operational deployment of ghillie suits. What I found was a very interesting consensus.
Every reply (certain 'local' individuals declined to comment) stated that ghillies were generally only used as a teaching tool in sniper courses. The purpose was to ascertain student abilities and aptitudes for camouflage,patient slow movement in uncomfortable environments.
The consensus extended to the reasons why ghillies were not generally used as an operational tool. These were cited as weight, mass required in backpacks, thermal characteristics and the frequent snagging on vegetation that caused the sniper time and space problems with movement.
Given the amount of 'enthusiast' interest in ghillie suits I thought it might be interesting to know what the professionals do with them after completing their courses. Multi-colored mops apparently.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 04:20:48 (ZULU)
Not to beat a dead horse, but I still have thoughts on this sitting position thing.
Do you plan to get to an FFP or an Ambush and get into a sitting position? Can't figure that one out!! I guess situation dictates with bad intel..
Great service rifle mandatory target position, but is this a taught diliberate practical positon? Can't ever remember a hasty or diliberate situation whether hunting or in combat when a sitting positon is used. You either kneeled, stood, point shot or were running your ass off while shooting. If you planned on a position, you were as low and concealed as possible.
Question though: If you plan on this type of position, how long should you expect to be in a position like this behind a scoped SWS, minutes, hours etc.??
I realize every marksman should have the capabilities and training to shoot in any position whether diliberate or hasty no matter how awkward, but I haven't grasped the concept of sitting yet. Maybe it's used if you get tired and need a rest, but I still don't see the signifigance other than a practiced position. If cover negates prone than I would have to think you were about to ingage a target before getting into a sitting position. And I would tend to think it was kneeling.
As far as getting comfortable with this position I have to agree with others for us old guys, sit indian style. But do crunches in this position, it helps a lot.
Just my thoughts. Thanks.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 05:15:16 (ZULU)
After reading the latest issue of Tactical Shooter(June '99) I came up with several questions...1) What type rifling is on the current Rem 700 VSSF ie. Hammer forged, cut, button ?? 2) Is the VSSF stock made by HS Precision or by Rem ?? 3) Do you really need a ghillie for the "C.H.M" in Oct @ SM or can good fieldcraft suffice ? I already have a "Burlap Berm" and have a "Mil Spec" netting cape/drape. I was taught(oh so long ago) to use a 60/40 of natural vegetation vs burlap, camo stuff. Is this still the preferred set-up ?? I darn sure don't look forward to humping that "Burlap Berm" especially if it gets wet and in Oct in WVa it probably will !! 4) Last but not least, Does ANYONE have the USGS topo maps for that AO so I can get an idea of the area ?? Will Elk Garden suffice to order topos or what ??
Thanks
OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 09:32:34 (ZULU)
Once again, due to the actions of an underage kid accessing firearms and commiting crimes against society, politicians and bureaucrats are rallying to legislate, litigate, and eliminate our 2nd Amendment rights out of existence. If firearms improperly used are being portrayed as evil and so much effort is going into propaganda, litigation,..etc (as is the case with the tobacco industry) Why doesn`t the media, politicians and bureaucrats do the same when someone commits a criminal act in an automobile. (Kind of like ol Teddy did at Chappaquidick) Imagine suing the Big 3 automakers because their product was "defective" when not used responsibly. I never hear the evening news banning certain models of auto`s and accessories as "evil" although I bet there are far more vehicular deaths per year than firearms deaths. As far a "assult gun toting adolescent sociopaths" hell ...just hand them some more money, toys, cars, whatever their heart desires...except some parental quality time and training so that they don`t have to work or learn responsibility for the small acheivements. Then they will be sure to develop a strong, healthy respect for human life. The bottom line is parents are responsible for their kids. Maybe they should outlaw stupid people from raising kids instead of firearms ownership.
Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
MI, USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 14:46:22 (ZULU)
Data Book Update:
The first data books should be arriving today. The very first to receive them were a sniper with a local agency and Matt F. We look forward to hearing from you all on the books.
More are going out today, but we ran out of Mildot Masters and so we're waiting for more from Bruce. (Yes, Bruce, we'll think ahead next time!) We have only three of the spiral bound books left from this shipment, but are getting more of the spiral and 3-ring in this coming week. We have plenty Slope Dopers and copies of the Military and Police Sniper by Mike Lau available.
Stay Safe!
Operations Partner <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, Co, USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 17:04:35 (ZULU)
Sitting position
One battle that the Marines used the sitting position in was at Guadalcanal
in 1942. The Japanese retreating tried to swim seaward though the shallows.
From the beach the Marines could not use the prone because of the slope.
They loped up tight in the sitting position and started taking headshots.
Almost ever round fired was a hit!
The sitting position is useful while hunting in the high mountains.
This position allows high and low angle of fire. In these conditions of
open long-range shoots where animals are detected and tracked at great
distance there is lots of time to get it to position. You are usually sitting
on the side of a hill below the crest.
CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Saturday, May 22, 1999 at 23:05:32 (ZULU)
I've been to the range and am trying some V-Max moly coated 55gr bullets, 26 grs of Varget and Norma cases in my wifes Remington VLS .223 and have had great results. Now is there any specific type of cleaner I should use or not use to remove the moly from the lands? I have Shooters Choice and Hoppe's #9. Is there anything better? If you can drop me an e-mail because lately I haven't had much time to spend reading and enjoying the Roster. Sorry guys....
Todd <duckman@eznet.net>
Andover, NY, USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 01:18:58 (ZULU)
Sarge from his hide takes a very tight bead on the Post Exchange system and pulls the trigger!
Went to the PX today at my nearest military facility to buy - now please note how "controversial" these items are - a pistol belt, Y-harness, 2 quart canteen and canteen cover and a first aid bandage pouch. Got to the check out and was asked for my ID card. No problem I'm retired E-7. Oh I'm sorry we cant sell "ISSUE ITEMS" to retired personnel!!!!! SAY WHAT!!! I was given this stuff for 20 years to use as I wanted, when I wanted and now that I'm retired and wanted to actually pay to have these items I'm told I can't buy them???!!!! Yet I can get these EXACT SAME ITEMS - at TWICE THE PRICE - from Brigade Quatermaster, US Cavalry Store and Ranger Joes just to name a few! Oh but the PX WILL sell me BDU's and boots and any other uniform items I want!!! Just not "TA-50"!! Would someone please make an attempt to RATIONALY explain this stupidity to me!!
OK so I'm pissed and blowing off steam!!
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 04:41:21 (ZULU)
I would appreciate any information on building myself a tactical rifle on a ruger 77 action. are there problems with this action? It seems really smooth. Do gunsmiths mind working it? I would plan on a match grade barrel as well as a proper fiberglass stock. what barrel and or stock would work the best. without totally breaking the bank? Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thomas Kuehrt <Tkuehrt@hotmail.com>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 07:32:33 (ZULU)
To the person that was interested in the PSS stock, have lost your email address.
Federal GM 308 175 is about gone. None of my local weapons of mass destruction dealers can find a supply. Can't remember the posts of various suppliers listed. Please relist. Will 168 grain reach out at 1000?
Pablito, list could grow to over 50 pages. May take another 2 or 3 weeks off and on to finish.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 13:48:23 (ZULU)
Outages: Sorry for the occaisional outages between yesterday and now. We got the living S@#$@t beaten out of us with lightning yesterday and last night. Our gear is okay, however it looks like GTE is working some of their switches. This may happen abit more in the next day or so.
Ken :)
ken <impactarea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 15:57:37 (ZULU)
Army marksmanship training, as of 1998, is not all that great. While I did learn to clear jams, field strip, clean and sight in the M16A2, it was not an enlightning experience. All though three or four of us in my platoon scored expert, we all came from rural backgrounds and learned to shoot when we were young. While I have never used a jacket, I use a sling to shoot off hand while hunting like my dad, not the Army showed me. Those that had never fired a weapon, actually shot better than some of the guys that had. So the training is helpful, just not complete. My buddy in the Marines had fired a few rounds but with no real training now shoots really well. We need to focus the training on real world combat and not peace keeping and hope we never have to shoot!
Anyway, that's my opinion and I'm twenty years old and don't know so much but this is a very good site and a special thanks to the writer of the article for adjusting the trigger on a Remington 700. It shoots much better!
Tomm O'Connell <HK13RILEY@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 17:39:39 (ZULU)
TOW missle launcher !
do any of you have some TM´s or detailed drawings ??
I have found a weapons pallet (lower unit) for my Airborne vehicle and would like to make a look alike TOW launcher to complete it for a static display. All I have are some pictures and I may get a 1:35 scale modell of one.
Thanks
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
germany - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 19:24:06 (ZULU)
Sarge: I know you are pissed!! I also have often wondered how come we have to pay twice the price at US Cavalry, etc for government items which we in fact do pay for with our tax dollar. Where are they gettting these items and how are they getting them. This also really yanks my chain. But one thing I will have to tell you Sarge and you may not like to hear this, but the truth has to be told. Sarge, (poor Sarge) You are a CIVILIAN again! Shit bricks and piss vinegar - but you are! Like most of us! Join the club.
I havd the oportunity to go to the range again again and played around with my 308 again and I am again floundering wiht handloads. I still have yet to make a group of handloads comparable to the Federal Matchs (and no I don't have any left either), Black Hills 168 moly Match (these shot the best with 1/4 to 3/8 groups consistently, and some older LC match ammo which I had for bout 10 years. I have yet to try some Vit 550 powder and have tried 4064, Varget, 4895 and H-335. The best groups I have been able to get is with the Vaarget powder (3/4 inch) The 178 Hornady still are shit no matter what powder I use. I'm open for suggestions. Does anyone know whether Black Hills maatch ammo is readily avaialble? Inquiring mines whant to know!
al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaosstapowicz@nls.net>
Lamenting over Po' Sarge's Fate in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999
at 19:40:08 (ZULU)
Al: As I posted earlier, I recently got a case of Black Hills 175gr moly .308 match ammo. It took my local shop 2 months to get it in. (And the stuff is expensive too! Makes Federal 308M and 308M2 look cheap!) My impression is that with all of the military contracts they are getting now, plus with what seems to be a general (Y2K?) run on ammo in general, that they're running behind on things, but that's just my take on it. Certainly if the Federal ammo is getting scarce it will increase the demand for other brands.
In any case if anyone needs BH ammo, I would order it as far ahead of time as you can.
Anyone know if Federal is just between runs of their stuff or what else might be behind the scarcity of their match ammo? Maybe the guys at Hoplite know...
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 21:27:16 (ZULU)
Al O,
Call Black Hills direct, if there isn't a dealer in your area they sell direct.
To the individual that was looking for secure radios, contact me I have a source. We will have these radios at SOF in Vegas, but that's more than four months away.
Anyone else going to SOF this year?
Pat II
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 21:48:54 (ZULU)
I'm buying a 16" A2 NM Bull Barrel Upper Half and plan on matching it with a post-ban CAR lower with cheek piece. Those anyone think this would be a good chose or should I just get a complete post-ban CAR-15?
Vee <coconutvee@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 23, 1999 at 23:26:51 (ZULU)
Dudes and Fellers,
We (Storm Mountain) just became a distributor for Black hills. We are getting shipments as we speak. Call (304)446-5526. It shouldn't be that much more than Federal. Federal has an attitude problem. They don't want to supply the "little" guys. Screw'em.
Factory load 168's are marginal at 1000YDS if you are going to be doing a lot of shooting greater than 800yds go with the 175's. 168's are good to 800 no problem, otherwise it will depend on the temp, barometric pressuer etc. Don't freak if you can't get the 175's, 168's still do a good job.
Shot 800 Meter (880 yard) sniper match in canada with M852 (military equivelent of Federal Match) and it did fine.
Go back to sleep.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 00:18:51 (ZULU)
Uhh M852 is a 168 load by the way,
No go back to sleep.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 00:20:11 (ZULU)
Could anyone give me a suggestion for OAL. I want to reload
Tack drivers for REM 700 PSS in 308. I’m not concerned with using the magazine.
As I’m sure the length will be longer then the mag.
Any help would be appericated!!!!
Thanks
Guy <aurandga@bright.net>
Ohio, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 01:01:50 (ZULU)
To all,
Just got back from the local Gun Show. There was a line about 100 long waiting to get in the door. Many had a gun or two, hoping to sell before the new law kicks in. Seems like everyone is jumping on this Sniper bandwagon one way or another. I saw some Mexican 22 long rifle ammo marked sniper match. It was loaded with a 60 grain bullet and is supposed to penetrate 24 inches of ballistic jello at 200 yards. The same guys were also selling some super short 12 gauge shotgun slug ammo. These babies are guaranteed to double the mag capacity of your pump action shotgun.
Also spent some time at the local garden center. There is some plastic netting out on the market now called Sunshade. It comes on a roll and sells for 15 cents for a 4 foot by one foot section. It looks like it has all kinds of possibilities for camouflage use.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 01:22:39 (ZULU)
Mr. Gooch: Can you please inform us as to how much you and Rod are selling the Black Hills ammo. So far it is the best shootin' ammo for my $2000.00 paper punch.
al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
I got the Buck if yous guys have Black Hills ammo, Ohio, USA - Monday,
May 24, 1999 at 01:56:17 (ZULU)
Has anybody used the Tasco Super sniper Scopes
Can you tell me some pros and cons
Craig <craighanson@home.com>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 02:58:31 (ZULU)
Don't know what this Klingon Army needs to train riflemen. They don't give you any ammo anyway. Just send you out with a .50 BMG in a jeep to learn how to avoid being captured in Enemy Territory. Fit gets where you can't get no Match Ammo. Try a RCBS Rock Chucker. You can surely make better ammo than Black Hills robot machines. Fi Cudn't Id quit!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 03:37:01 (ZULU)
To all:
Does anyone have any experience with import/export of a firearm to other countries, particularly Australia?
I go there every year, but this year I am invited to a boar hunt and would like to participate with my own rifle.
I've contacted the appropriate department and they said "no problem" just fill out a form.
NOW I really dont want to lose my rifle at customs, and have heard some horror stories about other countries..
Any input would be appreciated.. Feel free to email me any suggestion/comments.
Thanks
Bruce Hilsabeck
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton/Ft.Sill, Oklahoma, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 05:17:11 (ZULU)
SOF: Myself and 3 other Gents from Awesome Arms shall be there as a team. This is my first year at SOF, should be fun. Awesome Arms is run by Dave Manning, who some of you may know as the Match director of the Proskopatholon, a Sniper match run in 1997, as well as the Kennyatholon. See www.awesomearms.com if your interested.
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 06:15:42 (ZULU)
Craig - I use the Tasco SS10x42 and my only complaint with the scope is that its not variable power and I wish the paralex adjustment was a side turret like on the 10x42M,however the 10x42 has a built-in sunscreen as the 10x42M does not. The optics are clear and the reticle is crisp. You may want to read Scotts' review on this page.
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 07:50:55 (ZULU)
i think it is a great tradegy that we have lost the greates sniper of all times ever since i read 93 confirmed kills i new he had to be the best i dreament of meeting the man but now that will never happen i think it is a great loss to every sniper everywhere and i hope to be a fraction of the sniper that Carlos Hathcock was
Adam Peightal <wolvie6@hotmail.com>
Ft Carson, CO, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 07:57:01 (ZULU)
Tigger50,
Thanks to you and all for the info. The sharing of infomation is one of the great things about this sight!!!
So some more qustions?
The rifle that we are going to build will be as follows,,
Round, 338 Laupa.
Action, Sako TRG-S
Barrel, K&P 32" with a 1" muzzle dia.
Muzzle break, KDF or VAIS
Stock, McMillan Prone
Scope,Leupold Mk.4 M1 boosted to 20X or 24X ???
WE will be shooting sierra's 300 Gr. matchkings and hope to reach the 3000 fps. mark. Dose this sound like a set up and ,what if any improvments could be made??
What is brass is better ,Laupa or Norma?
Here what we did at the range , shot my 308@ 400 Yds. at B-27 targets(reduces) shot 5 shots into a 1.865 groupe 4 out of 5 was .880 my rifle ,why it is a winchester M70 Heavy Varmit with a 8.5 to 25x leupold with USMC Mildot from Premier.
My load is, Brass, neck sizeded LC match, trimed to 2.005 ,debured ,primer pocket uni.,flash hole debured insided and out. Bullet, Berger 168 Gr VLD, Powder , 45.0 Gr.RE-15, primer,210 Fed match. This load chron.@ 2865 Fps. with no pressure signs.
I also have a winchester M70 in a custom sharpshooter 300 Win Mag I just got it back from R.W Hart&Sons here in Pa. I had a new barrel put on it . A 26" Hart match fluted with a muzzle dia. of .925, just beaking it in now.
Any comments or suggestions would appreciated!!!
LIVING THE GOOD LIFE HERE IN Pa.( untill they come for gunns.)
BigGunn out.
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country, Pa., USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 11:23:30 (ZULU)
Herter's [1-800-654-3825] sells a 20'x20' piece of camo net for $39.99. Being net, it is easy to wind vegetation through it. Weighs in at around .0925 pounds per sq foot dry.
Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 14:10:27 (ZULU)
Netting on ghillies. Not a big fan of it except for the veil. Unless you really do a good job of tacking it down it seems like its always snagging on shit.
We have just begun work with a company to build a ghillie smock. They also build BDU's on govt contracts so this thing is getting exciting. It will have belt loops sewn on the areas where scrim needs to be attached. If you are "snagged" on netting you can use the loops to attach a net.
Out here
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 14:28:11 (ZULU)
Hey guys, just got my T.R.G.T. Data book in the mail. After flipping through the book its obvious more than a little thought went into its constuction. I especially like the range estimation table and the target dimention pages. There are also plenty of zero data pages where many books are shy in the amount they provide. It's a winner.
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 15:57:09 (ZULU)
Big Gunn,
Only comment is about that Sako TRG action. It can be a finnicky thing and the Dakota Arms is a more traditional design and much stronger than the TRG. If you're going to try to push the 300 grainer to 3000 fps. you'll need some special chambering, as in absolute minimum headspace, which means hand selection of cases. Would recommend the Norma Brass. It's stronger and higher quality.
Another recommendation actionwise is the McBros Talon action setup for the .416 case head size. Very strong action because it uses rebated locking lugs. Contact me at my email site for more data please.
Trigger50
Trigger50 <Dmicha@aol.com>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 16:19:01 (ZULU)
Jeff A,
On the dials for the 260 I sent you they should be right on depending on your rifle and how fast the barrel is. My custom barrel is one MOA flatter at 1000 than the factory but other than that the dials should put you on target. The factory 260 loves the AMAX and the custom likes the 142s both like Varget so that works out well. Shooting 3 shot groups with both guns was hitting a 9" paper plate with at least one or more of the 3 at 900 and 1000yds. They both shot under MOA 95% of the time. There was no problem with the dial being to far off one way or the other with the 3.5x10LR. From the way both guns were shooting most of the rounds would have hit a paper plate at all ranges from 800 to 1000 except for a fish tailing wind that put us on one side or the other by a half of a MOA.
Al,
I shouldn't tell a "City boy" this but use Varget with the 168s
and they will shoot fine to 1000yds. I was using 45grs with LC Match brass
and they were doing close to 2800fps so staying suprersonic past 1000 was
no problem. If I would do my part (on a calm morning) I could keep 5 for
5 in a IPCS target at 1000. Then again you could just get a 260 and throw
on the 300WM cam and not worry about it, thats what Pete is thinking about
doing(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 16:21:03 (ZULU)
I've been looking for a Rem 700VS in 308, but since the RH version has been dropped from the catalog, I am having a hard time finding anything that isn't stainless.
I found a 700P-DM, but it only has a 20in. bbl.
What is reccomended as an alternative for the 200-700yd range while
keeping the rifle under $800?
Chris <titleman@stellar.net>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 16:22:49 (ZULU)
Big Gun: Sounds like a really neat project.
I don't believe 3000 fps. with the 300 gr. MK will be possible without jeapordizing safety.Your velocity goals would likely be more easily achieved with some of the high quality 250 gr. bullets on the market.Lapua's 250 gr. Scenars have a very high B.C. (.679 if I remember correctly).
If you want to persue this goal of 3000 fps. here are some things you may wish to consider:
(1) AS ALWAYS!! work up your loads in small increments until tell-tale pressure signs appear.
(2) You might want to try out Alliant's new Reloader 25.It is slower than Reloader 22,so it may give you a bit of an edge over other available powders.
(3) To get that velocity figure you just may have to free-bore that chamber a little more than you would expect.The 300 gr. .338's are very long, and you'll need all the powder capacity you can muster to cram in as much powder as possible.
(4) Are you planning to use the 300 gr. Sierras exclusively ?If so, perhaps your gunsmith can chamber your barrel specifically for your exact combination.
(5) 32" is a decent length, but perhaps you may want to consider up to 36"? Afterall, to achieve 3000 fps. you are going to need all the length you can handle for those extremely slow buring powders to burn up completely.
My experience with .338's is limitted, but I do enjoy the .340 Weatherby Accumark I own.
Best of luck in your project,
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 16:27:15 (ZULU)
I'm ghillie confused again.
Still struggling with the various methods. Burlap strips vs. bushrag type, coveralls vs. 2-piece. Sounds like Leafy Wear with garnishments is looking better all the time. Pablito, have you checked it out yet?
If I wasn't concerned about Al O. i'd get me a sheep costume.
Gooch, if you don't use netting of one kind or the other, how do you attach the burlap and other woods stuff the suit? How will the smock be made, got an idea of cost. Advantages? Still haven't heard from Rob about ammo and prices.
Also Gooch, hold on to you money, I will know today if I got the bid on the LBE stuff.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 16:34:26 (ZULU)
Sorry Sarge, forgot it was you and not Gooch that needed the web gear. I won the bid so email me with what you wanted to buy. We'll figure out something.
The bartering Bolt, out
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 16:40:40 (ZULU)
Non-tactical question. Anyone familiar with the CZ line of pistols ? I'm interested in CZ 75B in 9mm.
thanks
andrew
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 16:41:59 (ZULU)
Hi Andrew,
My first centrefire auto was a CZ-75 brought in 1983,it is one of the slickest 9mm around,smooth operation and virtually no sharp edge's you don't have to have it dehorned.The gun I had(sold it,worst move I made)didn't like minimum load's(to save powder)2/3 power lead reload's will function alright.The gun is set up for full power load's,by today's std it's slightly heavy compared to alloy or ploymer gun's.Rember my gun was a 1983 model,they have changed a few minor point's of the gun,if you can handle the weight it is a serious combat auto.
Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 21:20:06 (ZULU)
Hi.
I have been debating between two rifles for a long time now, I have been researching them quite a bit.
I trying to choose between a custom built PSG1 or an AT C24. I am leaning toward the C24 because of their exellent reputation and it costs about a 1,000 less. I have shot a PSG1 and loved it. It was the most comfortable gun I have ever shot, the only downfall was it weighs 18+ lbs. Besides that it's a semi auto and could have great advantages over a bolt gun. I will using the rifle for competition, and hunting. If I got the PSG1 I would have to do some heavy duty weight lifting at the gym, so when I take it hunting I will be able to hold the gun steady if I have to shoot standing.
The C24 is garenteed to shoot average groups under 1/2 moa. The PSG1 is garanteed to shoot 1/2 moa. I wish I was rich so I wouldn't have this problem. Then I could buy both.
Anyone who could help, please give me your thoughts.
thanks.
Nick <hkmp5_2222@yahoo.com>
slc, ut, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 21:28:05 (ZULU)
Thanks Chris.
I searched newsgroups and people really seem to like CZs. It sure is a slick looking gun plus it's half the price of my Sig. I did find the CZ-USA web site and a write up on the CZ-100, polymer frame. It's smaller and lighter then 75B. It sure will make a fine carry gun.
andrew
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 23:20:02 (ZULU)
Al O.
Remember load the pointy end of the bullet out of the cartridge case........... E-mail me with specifics an I'll try to help. Got a new computer thingee that can be converted to write like a crayon on LARGE lined paper so you will be able to understand what I say too!
Pat(MR Bullet) Now don't you go spreading any more rumours and making EWE know who more nervous than the local cloven ladies on Friday nite.
Have a great evening folks!
Chao!
peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 24, 1999 at 23:38:50 (ZULU)
Review on Badgers and Mark 4's. Just got my first set of Badgers. Guys, spend the extra $25 and get the Badgers. The fit, finish and tolerances beat the heck out of the Mark 4's.
Premier has just gotten a shipment in. The cost was $125 shipped
for the highs.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 25, 1999 at 01:47:03 (ZULU)
Camo net can be a snag hassle, depending how you use it. We have sewn it to BDU's, fairly snug, tying burlap or what have you to the "loose" parts. Attach the net to the bdu with horizontal or cube stitching...if done right it won't snag too much, if at all. The net at Herter's is just a good starting point...also beats hell out of trying to keep your blind from flapping in the wind when used as a stationary cover. Spray paint some filament line to tie to weeds, brush, trees, whatever, push vegies through the net = hide sweet home. Won't flap bad because of all the holes in the net. Keep the urine bottle handy and the critters will literally walk into the net so that you can pet them:) Next article, how to use frozen camelback for keeping underhood temps down on a hot day:)
Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 25, 1999 at 02:37:01 (ZULU)
Andrew: The CZ85 9mm is one of the best stock out of the box pistols I own. Good workmanship, reliability, operation and accuracy.
I also recieved the T.R.G.T. data book today. I've been comparing it to the AWC systems and FM 23-10 data sheets I've used previously and I congradulate the developers. I'm looking forward to using it. Any thoughts on including 300 Win data in the future and also developing a Windows based software program to record the same data. My laptop would love it.
I got a chance to apply the markmanship positions that have been discussed here recently (ie sitting, off hand, unsupported prone) in a service rifle match this weekend. They all have merit and work well with an M1A but I still have to practice with that SWS. It was raining so hard and windy, I had to blow the water bubbles out of my peep sight. Trying to spot bullet holes with a spotting scope at 200 yds was almost impossible. But you just have to love it.
Scott and Mike: Are the next batch of slings almost ready ? It would
sure help in the practicing. Thanks....
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, May 25, 1999 at 02:39:51 (ZULU)
First time on the site. Outstanding info. I am a former Marine. I was
not a 0311/8541 but a 2145.
My current rifle is a Savage 10 20 inch barrel, sharps trigger job
2.2 crisp lbs. A ultimate sniper stock, harris bi pod, a ZF 95 kahles scope 10x42 mil dot of course.
looking foward to future visits to your sit