Sniper Country Duty Roster

May 2003



does anyone know how to get info or have any information on the mcmillian soon to be released A5 stock

cold zero

cold zero Email this member See this member's profile
brooklyn, ny, usa - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:16:01 (ZULU)



Don Smith...

www.Midwayusa.com has them.  They are not expensive.  They come in two sizes, for .308, you want "Rifle 30L".

as to:

>"Catshooter:  In light of the above and my NEED for a M24 stock, and other things, is mac & cheese cheaper in bulk from Sam's or Costco? ;-)"<

I can't help you.  Me and Ruggus Rattus just stand on the corner, wearing a sign that says, "We will snipe for Mac & Cheese" ;)))

It always gets those old ladies, and they take us to dinner.  He always hits them up for icecream too ;)

-

Byron...

Double spaces???

For some reason, there is a glitch in this software.  You can have a continous paragraph, and have one sentence follow the other, but when you hit "return" to start the "next" line, the software gives you an extra empty line... there is no way to get around it.

It makes me crazy too.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:27:23 (ZULU)


Gents,

Ken M., Sent photo's of the rifle a few minutes ago...let me know how they came through.

Cold Zero. If you really want to know what the the new A5 McMillan stock looks like go to the emporium and buy one that's for sale there. George Gardner is a prince to do business with and prices are very good.(Cheap plug).

Since Varget is a repack of Aussie Mulwex 2208 I would think it would NOT change. I'm still shooting off my last eight pounds, so will find out, for sure sometime down the road.

Hogdon is VERY tight in their acceptance specs. One reason I find myself using Hogdon products more and more...

Have photo's of the Remington action and the .22/250 I have for sale for those interested.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:27:55 (ZULU)



Byron & 'lito;

Thanks for the M die info.  already got the taper crimper from Midsouth & guess I just missed the M in the catalog.  Will order tonight.

Don

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:32:15 (ZULU)


To the two folks selling the drag bags on the Emporium....Have sent each of you an email requesting availability but haven't received reply. Ifin you still have em, shoot me an email.

George, sent you an email on the number 4 and 5 stocks posted on the Emporium also.

Bowcher, you going to Butner this weekend?

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:46:18 (ZULU)


'lito,

>>>Sharon....

I tried to "reply" to your e-mail, but it bounced.  You got another e-mail address, or is your mailbox full??  The new dress is a knockout ;))<<<

Yeah, I've lost about 30 lbs...

I haven't a clue why it bounced.  I check mail 2 - 3 times a day, particularly when hoping for your response, so it isn't full.

skporter@nts-online.net

ljporter@military.com

ljporter@juno.com

Sharon

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 02:30:21 (ZULU)



Oddly enough, Lyman "M" dies are also available from...Lyman.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/dies.htm

Or click on my name. Midway's prices are cheaper, though, if they have what you need. I ordered my taper crimper from Dillon's, which gave me an excuse to also order a poster of a hot young lady with a firearm in her mits. (Yeah, I already have the calendars - both the Dillon Precision and the Dillon Aero.)

Where do powder manufactures come up with these names? Varget? Mulwex? Good grief!

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 03:05:01 (ZULU)


'Lito, the article was "A Service Rifle Powder Alternative" by C.E. Harris, out of the 1988 NRA book "Semi-Auto Rifles -- Data and Comment".  They didn't list temperatures, but going over the article there was an interesting point that "Ball powder was sometimes used before 1970 to load 7.62mm M118 Match ammunition and has been used to some extent by highpower competitors" and "Ball powders such as W-W 748 have a bulk density of about .96 grams per cubic centimeter, versus about 0.90 for IMR-4895."

"U.S. Government specifications for 7.62mm M118 and M852 Match ammunition are 2550+/- 30 fps @ 78 feet (2750 +/- 30 for M80 Ball with 148-gr. bullet), with breech pressure not to exceed 50,000 c.u.p. and port pressure 12,500 +/- 2,000 c.u.p. when fired in the government gauge.  The SAAMI test barrel produces somewhat higher pressure and velocities than the government gauge fired with the same ammunition, due to differences in the barrels themselves and the fact that the government gauge uses drilled cases, whereas undrilled cases are used in SAAMI practice.

"All test loads were assembled in once-fired Lake City 7.62mm Match cases, primed with Winchester Large rifle primers.  Overall cartirdge length is 2.80" throughout.  Breech pressures are radial cooper units of pressure (c.u.p.) and velocities instrumental at 15 ft. from a 24" .308 Win. SAAMI test barrel.  Port pressures are c.u.p. based on test firing in a U.S. government 7.62mm NATO port pressure gauge."

They covered these bullets:

Sierra 150 MatchKing

Sierra 168 MatchKing

Lapua 170

Lake City M118 (173s)

Sierra 180 MatchKing

Lapua 185

Sierra 190 MatchKing

This table has powder burn rates:

http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading/components/powderburnrate.html

I have an Army ammo data sheet that also has WC 846 ball powder as an M118 Match propellant that you can buy in big surplus canisters (from de-milled pull-down ammo) that would probably work well in a Dillon.

Interesting burning rate comparison for common 7.62 Match powders going from faster to slower:

125  IMR 4895

132  WC 846

136  WW 748

140  VV N135

141  IMR 4064

143  Varget

154  VV N140

156  Reloader 15

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 03:13:49 (ZULU)


Don Smith,

           If the Mac 'n Cheese gets too pricey check out your County Jail for where they get their Ramen Noodles. Should cost you about $.08/pkg. if you buy by the case lot;-)

Powder burning rates,

                     Isn't H4895 just a bit slower than IMR4895? At least that's what I've always heard.

ALAN

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 03:46:09 (ZULU)


Don - Lat/Lon Conversion

You can do it on the web at; http://www.swcp.com/csar/UTMConverter.shtml .

Or you can go to this page (http://www.andren.com/andren/ll2utm2ll.zip) to download a free program that will supposedly do the conversions for you.

Hope this helps,

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 03:54:57 (ZULU)


Sinister quoted,

"U.S. Government specifications for 7.62mm M118 and M852 Match ammunition are 2550+/- 30 fps @ 78 feet"

Mr.L, correct me if'n I am wrong, but I beleive that those #'s are out of a M1A, w/ a 22" tube.

Out of a 24/26" tube, closer to 2710/20.

On the burn rates........

The N140, is faster than IMR 4064, IMHO.

And Varget is zactly where it should be.

Lindy,

Notice that most ALL of the good powder makers are now out of CONUS??.

And, IN countries where the population is disarmed.............funny huh.( Alliant/Varget/ Accurate Arms/Vihtavouri/ & I think, Hodgdon).

On the Ball Powders.........748 is great for .308/7.62, but, if someone can come up with a BALL powder that won't deviate 100fps or more in heat swings let me know.......I am in line, behind Litosan', ( unless he's in the Pink Pumps........LOL).

Two Shoes

( NOT Pink).

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 04:38:59 (ZULU)


Warning! Back woodsie post. or why do I know better than to do this?

Scope crosshair alignment

 Get you a picture of an outdoors scene. Level it by eye or bubble level. Turn your scope to a low setting or whatever is clear. Line up the reticle so that it looks level with your natural hold. (that's what you will shoot with anyway) Sight from bench or prone if possible. Line it up and it won't usually look off when you get to the range or outside. Feed the dog!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 04:53:59 (ZULU)


Alan;

  I just had Stellite valve seats installed in a pair of heads this week. EXPENSIVE. Cost more than the rest of the head work put together.

    LATER

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 06:05:04 (ZULU)



Edited out of respect.

    Food for thought. NOT pistol country restart (I hope). About Barettas and Safeties: I Have A 92 G (GOLF). Whats that? An F but no safety, de-cocker only. I got it ten years ago, for a song. Just about given to me. I had the action cleaned up to about a 6 lb. DA and I put on really thin grips. I have fairly big, strong hands (carpenter/ rock climber) so It dosn't give me much pause. My 1911 has an arched spring housing and fat grips and yes I carry it more. The Golf is Very accurate and has never had a stopage in 15, 000+ rnds. I often fire +P. When I heard about the "eating Italian steel" problem, I got a friend who does Tool and Die inspection, for a major company, to Floroscopic- somthing or other test the slide and frame. All clear at 13, 000. I did get into trouble once when a Rannge officer insisted I put my weapon on safe, I finally had to let him "try" to put it on safe. It was real funny to watch.

   Alan- Mountian guides use altimeters to forcast all the time, I think your stupid if you dont't. As a general rule if your standing still but the alt. says your still climbing, GO DOWN NOW. Barometric pressure is dropping, Bad weather comming. opposite: run for the summit; you got "Peak bagging weather" If you pay attention, you can feel the pressure drops (ABN. back me up!). It is really easy to feel if you've got sinus trouble or a hangover. Pressure/weather can actually effect your mood: Higher pressure = calmness, lower pressure=  crankiness and head aches.

   All this reloading talk finaly got to me . I'm gonna get a press. I shoot .223, .308w and soon .300wm. If any one wants to "wish list" the project, I'd love the input. Hit me off line.

   I'm building a baby gas gun, ar-15 DMR, I'm going to finish it with the factory 20" heavy barrel and test it. Then I'm going to send it to George, or Derik Martin to finish it right (new barrel and trigger work) any comments on twist rates and loads for heavy rounds that feed from mags?

   Lastly, an earlier post of mine was not clear. I want to know if any other Rosterfarians worked on the rescue  efforts at the WTC. I was there and I'm betting that Medicjim was. I know alot of people wanted to help but were shut out or couldn't get here (NYC), but I want to know if any of you guys were there with me.

OH, SORRY, long post.

-Web Crittenden

     

when the mountian goes up, you go down. Email this member See this member's profile
rout 86, Ny, the best one - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 07:06:05 (ZULU)


John, I played quite a bit with them I would still be shooting them if I could buy them locally. (I hate ordering all the time) I was getting 2870fps with a near max charge of Hogdons 4895. This was out of 24" Rock barrel.

I went shooting with Casion a couple days ago. That boy can shoot. I saw him hit an 11" plate at 500yds with open sights(AR15). Not first shot but he hit it. Cripes I could barely see it.

Anyone hear from Charles Hunt? Haha (inside joke)

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 08:04:58 (ZULU)


Gents,

All this talk about pink shoes has me wondering about you gents. Barbi pink shoes...yuuuch! Now black patent leather pumps/stilleto heels and we're getting somewhere!

Dos Zap and Sinister: You're actually getting 2,710 FPS out of M118 and M852, in a 24"-26" tube? Fired both down my 26" Obermeyer Tube and it was no where near that fast. Seems to me it was just over 2,600 FPS. NOW I'll have to go test again to see. Put on the agenda for the next range trip...

Ball Powders...have not had any luck with Winchester powder. Tried and tried with 748 in my .223's and .308's. Could never get the results I wanted. Interesting to note that Accurate Arms 2520 (old isreali stuff) performed admirably in my M1A gas guns.

Interestingly, Bill Wylde and others have had superb luck in the .223 using 748. Perhaps I'm just not pushing it fast enough...

Need .338 Lapua Loads for my Gardner gun. Anyone have any suggestions for the 250 grain Lapua Scenar or the 300 grain Sierra BTHP? Brass is prep'd and ready. Just need my rifle...

Clear sky and stars tonight. Hopefully, a harbinger of a beautiful day tomorrow. We could use one.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 08:45:53 (ZULU)



Sharon...

I resent the answer to the "Dies" e-mail to all three address's.

You should get at least one of them.

Congrats on the 30 pounds, glad you didn't loose it "you know where" ;))  Fredrick's has a sale on powder blue fishnets ;)))

-

Lindy...

>"Oddly enough, Lyman "M" dies are also available from...Lyman."<

Well, yeah but.  I called Lyman the on Monday to get some new, up-to-date books on cast lead bullets and loading for the SASS stuffie, and the very nice Lyman lady told me NOT to get them from Lyman, to get them from Midsouth.  I saved $50.  They are very nice people over at Lyman (Midsouth too ;).

-

Sinister...

Thank you for the data.

Back when I was shootin' Ball, I LOVED W748... it shot very accuratly in everything I used it in.

Speaking of W748, and powder burning rate changes from lot to lot... I had a bunch of ammo left over from a Prairie Dog shoot in 1980, and it sat in a case for over 22 years, waiting for a return trip... last year, I decided to pull it down cuz bullets have improved so much over the past 22 years, that I figured that I would replace the old soft points with slickitty V-Maxs.  So I pulled down a bunch of .222 Mag, and wound up with 4 pounds of 22 year old W748.

It looked good, it smelled good, so it must be good, right??

I though, "What the hell", and loaded up 20 rounds with it... and 20 rounds of brand new W748.  When shot, the old and new were identical in velocity (9 fps difference in AV), and the SD's and ES's were virtually the same.  Not bad for those 22 years.

I sure ain't the same as I was in 1980... I'm a LOT slower :((

Sinister... when you get "runaway guns" (keyboard on full auto), just click on the little icon that has the white page with a red "X" over it.  That is the "delete this post" thingie.

-

Critter...

>"Now that the fighting is over (on the roster),"<

When the fighting is over, don't poke the wounds with a sharp stick... let it alone!

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 13:16:46 (ZULU)


Wes said,

"Dos Zap and Sinister: You're actually getting 2,710 FPS out of M118 and M852, in a 24"-26" tube? Fired both down my 26" Obermeyer Tube and it was no where near that fast. Seems to me it was just over 2,600 FPS. NOW I'll have to go test again to see. Put on the agenda for the next range trip..."

Wes, my error........M118LR, is what I was thinking......26" tubes

So, don't waste your time re-doing the tests.

( Sinister actually posted correct results for 24" barrels.....".

Plus, I am in Tejas, ans it's considerably warmer here......LOL

I would think you would get mor velocity, though, from a 26" Ober......??.

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 13:34:23 (ZULU)


'lito

>>>Congrats on the 30 pounds, glad you didn't loose it "you know where" ;))  Fredrick's has a sale on powder blue fishnets ;)))<<<

I tend toward red...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 13:40:51 (ZULU)


"does anyone know how to get info or have any information on the mcmillian soon to be released A5 stock"

Sarge, Scott, Pete;

Please get back to Marius regarding the A-5 Review.  

Don

Don K. Email this member See this member's profile
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 13:54:46 (ZULU)


Critter; I'll back you on the sinus barometer detection thing. Mountain and everywhere but especially mountains. Everytime one goes through I can feel it. (about every 3rd day around here). I had 3 headaches a week for 25 years. My BP was outstandingly high and every change up or down affected it. A doctor prescribed Capoten for the BP condition. This was quail hunting day (thanksgiving) 1987 (he didn't believe the fronts were causing it).

For about 8 to 10 years I didn't get out of sight of capoten or have a headache although I could feel the feeling when the baro changed. Then they found the heart defect after the attack. A stint was installed and no headaches at all with or without capoten. Even when BP is 180/120 there's no headaches. Sorry guys but maybe it will help somebody.

Lito' I'm not sure we'd like it (SC) as much if the fat lady sang about the fighting. I could use a rest though. A long discussion without it is rare indeed.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 13:57:36 (ZULU)


Web Critter - Yes, I was there, arrived around 3PM

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 15:38:08 (ZULU)


Yeah, yeah, D. Steve, I'm still here, and doing just fine, thank you.  The thanks you get for protecting your friends.  That was a saber-fanged, spike-horned Western Whirlygator, and it was crawling right toward Caison's head.  I shot it on purpose.  Now that you know that, I expect a little more respect.  And yes, Mr. Caison can shoot.  It's amazing what you find out about the people you meet on the DR.  Two outta two, they all been great folks.  Met two people from my wife's office, not so nice.  Lawyers, you know.  Hmmmm.....there's a lesson in there somewhere.  

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 15:49:11 (ZULU)


Shoes & Wes,

           Just FYI, tested M852 (from CMP) a couple of years ago. Chrono'd 2568MV from my 22" M1A bbl. @ 4850 elev.

Web,

   I recently built an AR15 SPR clone. Used a Douglas Premium S/S service rifle match contour 20" bbl., 1/8 twist, with OPS Inc. brake.

I believe it to be SOCOM's version of USMC DMR. Here's some loads for ya, all with 77SMK, W-W brass & WSR primers, all set to magazine length of 2.25" - 2.26".                                               23gr. H4895                                                           24gr. Re15                                                            24gr. Varget                                                         If you're now running a 1/9 (or slower) bbl. it probably won't like the 77SMK's. Try the 69SMK's and add .5 to 1.0 grains to the above loads with a 1/9 twist. Any slower twist - use varmint loadings!

  I'm aware of the use of altimeters by mountain guides. The Ski Patrol people use BP gauges, altimeters, and ambient temp gauges together for the sake of documentation. As in "what were the specific weather conditions when that skier killed himself by hitting that tree?" or " exactly what conditions caused you to empty that mountain?".                                                          

  I figured that a meticulous shooter/experimenter like Andy's Dad might benefit by being able to record all of the atmospheric details in his log book - right then and there!

'yote bait,

          High Power Match Rifle shooters cant their sights to have the post appear vertical and the elevation adjustments remain vertical along with the windage adjustments remaining on the horizontal plane, but they are PURPOSELY canting their rifles! You know, tight slings, shooting coats, and a shooting glove. Other shooters should learn to hold their rifle straight - wait a minute - you're wankin' us, aren't you?

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 15:53:22 (ZULU)


Varget update,

Just talked with one of my friends at Hodgdon's.  This is the first he has heard of the problem.  He asked me to get the lot number or numbers of the problem powder and forward them to him.  Since the DR e-mail seems to be FUBAR you can drop the info to me at: docs@fidnet.com      Will let you know what they find out.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 16:47:20 (ZULU)


Alan'; I always said Hi Power shoots view life on a different plane.

Actually they are kind to Bench Rest Shooters who also have an odd "slant" to life in General. Wanking? who me?

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 17:32:31 (ZULU)


Bolt - Nope but will be up there for the end of May cross the course shoot.  There will be two guys form SOTIC up there though.  One will be shooting our 300 Win Mag in a McMilBros OLD and I do mean OLD prone stock and the other will be shooting 6.5 in a stock with American flags all over it.

The M118 NM we got about 2550 with the M21 but with the bolt guns we built we got 2600 out of them as a top end.

Rick Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 17:41:22 (ZULU)


I have a question concerning the previous few days discussion about barometric pressure. 1)Does a hand held unit (like the Kestrel or Brunton) give corrected or non-corrected info. 2)If its corrected, what needs to done to that number for it to be an accurate reading of your location. Maybe this is a dumb question, but after reading everything written, I still dont understand exactly how to get a correct reading of barometric pressure. I want to record as much as possible about conditions on a given day in my log book to have a better idea of what corrections I need at long range.

JimmyD Email this member See this member's profile
Alabama, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 17:51:57 (ZULU)


Steve Hockeyref, Sinister, Jerry and anyone else that shoots/shot highpower.....

Ok so I just got back from the range today.  Finally got my Holliger/RRA dialed in at 100yds (I needed a front sight adjustment).  So I shot the rifle from the bench and damn, that thing can shoot.  I was using a 50 Yard slow fire pistol target (that's all I had) at 100 yds from the bench and was keeping everything in a nice little 1-1.5" cluster.  Then I decided "What the hell, maybe I'll try sitting".......sigh.  Actually I did betterer than I thought I would (about 3"....but this was my first time).  So here's my question.  Do any of you guys have any good recommendations for books/videos to teach me how to get into proper positions and use the sling properly?  I don't have any contact with any highpower shooters so I'm pretty much on my own here.  I don't want to learn to do something only to find out later that I have to "unlearn" it because I was doing it wrong.  One thing for sure is, this is addicting.

BTW, I was shooting the Hornady reman stuff.  WOW!! this stuff is great.  It's a Hornady 75grn A-Max over Varget (I don't know how much) in a LC case.  $220 for a case of 1000 delivered.

Thanks guys,

Rich S.

BTW, Don K.  You get the check?

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 21:45:17 (ZULU)


Quickie Unsolicited Review:  B&C Duramaxx Stock

I just got a Bell & Carlson Durmaxx replacement stock for my Savage 12FV 22-250.  This is a replacement for my Choate/Plaster Ultimate Varmint Boat Oar.  Don't get me wrong, the Choate stock is fine if you shoot off a bench from the back of your pickup all day, but I walk a lot when I'm out scoping for 'chucks, and the thing is just too awkward to sling over your shoulder and walk any distance.

The Duramaxx reminded me right away of an H-S Precision in the way it feels.  It is good and solid and has a nice texture.  It has aluminum pillars fore and aft, and a Pachmayr Decellerator on the butt.

I had to buy a trigger guard and action screws from Brownells to make it work with my rifle, as the Choate stock has an integrated guard and non-standard screws.  The trigger guard required a little fitting to keep it from touching the Sharpshooter Trigger, but it was a simple task of filing.  The bbl channel also needed a little sandpaper wrapped around a dowel to give the bbl a bit more clearance.  The stock is homogenous, so filing away won't reveal a foam core.

I have yet to shoot it, but it was a sub 1/2 MOA rifle in the other stock with my reloads.  I see no reason why it won't shoot in this thing.  I like it better than the Choate Varminter, and a heckuva lot better than the flimsy Choate Synthetic sporter that Savage puts on their sticks.

I would have liked to see an extra swivel stud up front, and a raised cheekpiece would've been nice, but I have an Eagle Stock Pack on there to give me good eye relief.

Price through Brownells is $119 Retail.  To view the B&C site, click on my name.  I also took a pic of my rifle which you can view at www.sgtlmj.com/pics.htm

Lance Johnston Email this member See this member's profile
Osseo, MI, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 22:27:30 (ZULU)


Doc,

I'm trying to get the lot# and the MV info from my guy who's had off lots.  When I get it I'll post my email address and we can make an arrangement to get the data passed on to you.

Rick,

I think I saw both those rifles last weekend.(No missing the 200 American flags on the one:)  The operator headspace and timing on both those sticks was outstanding.  

BTW,, Do you happen to know what type of steel you've switched too??  T-1, 500 Brindle????  How's it holding up to 300WM's?

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 22:54:48 (ZULU)



-Lito,Sir,

    Your right. Won't Happen Again. I think Dan and Bill are great guys and an important part of this place. I intended no "pickin-at-'em".

Dan and Bill,

    If I've offended you with my attempt at humor, I am sorry. I ment no harm, I intended to acknowledge your contributions in a humorous way.

Alan,

   Thanks for the AR info. Sounds like you built pretty much what I want to build. I would love to "see your notes". On the Barro/alt stuff ,  I guessed right, I thought you were well aware of the many uses and users. I was talking to everyone and "looking" at you because your post got me thinking. Ranger Andy's Dad will probably get alot of use out of the system. He's no novice tinkerer and has the basics well in hand  (x,x,x,10 ...) I think beginers could get  confussed.

MedicJim,

   Thank You. I got there about  noon. Walked from 19th and 8th.

on alt/barro.

Most handheld barro. units read UN-corrected local pressure but you can calibrate an alt/barro. so as to give you a correct altitude. Before any one thinks about it, a GPS can give you altitude on some models but this has nothing to do with barrometric pressure and is a signal time/distance based system using multiple averaging methods. While I own and use Altimiters, Barrometers and GPSs, I still think advanced map skills are preferable at times. Its kind of like what Mil-dots and lasers, got to know 'em both.

-Critter

Edited for clarity

Web Crittenden Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 23:21:31 (ZULU)


Rich S,

      Highpower Service Rifle Video set, done by CMP/USAMU available through CMP. They also sell the USAMU Service Rifle Guide, and you might want a copy of the CMP Competition Rule Book too!

     @ www.odcmp.com  or  (888)267-0796

      Highpower Rifle by G. David Tubb

      The M/Sgt. Owens 4-book set on Highpower

     @ Sinclair Intl.  www.sinclairintl.com  or  (260)493-1858

      All of the above are excellent, almost necessary for an FNG to the sport IMHO. Especially a shooter without a coach!

      I'm curious. 75gr. A-Max? Seated to magazine length? I always thought that the bullet would have to seat so deeply that it would  cut down heavily on your powder capacity! I use both Varget and Re-15 in my .223's and believe me, there ain't a bit of extra room in that case using those powders and shorter bullets. I have to use a drop tube and still crunch the grains on 25gr. Re-15 and the Hornady 75gr. HPBT Match bullet loaded to 2.26"!

HTH,  ALAN

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 23:28:39 (ZULU)



'Lito, was skimming for more ball powder thru progressive measure data and the only other powders mentioned were BL(C)-2 and H335.

There were two 175-grain ww748 loads in an "Ask Derrick" article in the February 98 Precision Shooting by Derrick Martin and Barrett Tillman:

"Our tests were conducted with Lake City cases, Winchester primers, and overall cartridge length of 2.80 to fit in magazines.  The custom testbed rifle was an M1A with integral scope mount receiver by Accuracy Speaks, Inc, a Douglas 1-10 twist tube and McMillan pistol grip stock.

"Ratings of five-round 200-yd groups are:  A=MOA or better; B=<2MOA; C= >2MOA.

"ww748, charge 45.0, vel 2619-2684, ES 65, AVG 2650, SD 25, groups B+

"ww748, charge 45.5, vel 2660-2682, ES 22, AVG 2669, SD 16, groups B-"

Rich, several good books for across-the-course firing an M16.  The best would be Zediker's AR-15 book "The Competitive AR-15."  Then for about $4 I'd get a copy of the USAMU Service Rifle Guide (from the CMP Store).  You'll need copies of the NRA Highpower Rule Book and the CMP Rule Book.

As for tapes I'd get the USAMU Service Rifle three-video set from CMP for $35.

CMP Training Pubs:

http://www.odcmp.com/Programs/publications.htm

Put everything else into ammo.  Depending on how much time you can get off from work/school, shoot at the Nationals at Camp Perry.

If you can take one day off (not counting the drive day to and drive day home), shoot the National Trophy Individual Match (the national "Leg" match).  If you don't own an accurized AR15, M1A, or M1, shoot the M1 Garand Match (you can even borrow weapons on the line or reserve one ahead of time, with the option to buy it at the end of the match for $400).

If you can only get two days off, shoot the President's Hundred, and the National Trophy Individual ("Leg") Match.

If you can spare three days off shoot the President's, the Leg, and find three guys from your state or club and shoot the  National Trophy (4-man) Team Match.

If you can get four days off all together, shoot the four days of individual NRA highpower.

If you can get five days off, shoot the Rumbold (four man team match) and the four NRA days.

You can get a bunk in one of the huts at Perry for $4 a day, I think was the rate last time I checked, or you can get a bunk in the barracks (I don't recall what the rate was for a barracks bunk with locker).

You would be amazed how much you will pick up from shooters, coaches, and gunsmiths on the line, just hanging out, or on Commercial Row.  Derrick Martin on the row is always a great place to soak up knowledge after a hard day shooting.  Bitchin' into your adult beverage at the end of the day and absorbing across-the-course knowledge for free is part of the sport.

Rich, the Maryland Association should have Fort Meade matches on the schedule, and there are also matches in Bridgeport, Delaware, and in Millville, New Jersey (both not too far from Bal'mer).  I don't know how far you are from Pennsylvania ranges.

Ken, Steve, any other hints?

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 23:48:32 (ZULU)


Web,

    Details on my SPR:

Started life as a Colt A3 H-BAR.

Replaced trigger with Colt Comp. trigger (pirated from my Acc. Elite)

Replaced barrel w/Douglas Premium S/S 20" 1/8 chambered for 80SMK@ 2.50" OAL and contoured by W.H. Merchant. Brownells carries them.

Installed OPS, Inc. brake, had to weld to stay legal;-(

Installed aluminum floating handguard w/full length rail (slides over intergral rail on upper) and three 3" acc. rails at 3,6,&9 o'clock by Young Manufacturing Co., Glendale, AZ. Looks just like PRI/ARMS setup except guard is alloy instead of carbon fiber and cooling holes are slotted instead of round.

Rear BUIS is KAC 300m flip-up, Front is Fulton Armory flip-up w/A2 post on ArmaLite rail-type gas block.

Grip is Ergo Ambi,buttstock is Colt A2/A3.

Scope is a B&L Tac 10 mounted using ARMS med. track mount rings w/SIMRAD rail on upper frt. ring, all set on ARMS track-type throw-lever base. The combination of full-length Young rail on top of A3 rail using ARMS base and med. height rings gives perfect cheek weld (for me).

I'm the plumber responsible for all of this. I'm just now finishing the break-in, and working up loads. So far it's bettering 3/4MOA and I haven't really been concentrating on groups. It went together like a dream, without a hitch! Let me know if I can advise or help in any way.

ALAN

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 00:00:01 (ZULU)


Alan, Sinister....

Thanks so much for the information.  I've seen the CMP tapes on their website (Yes, I'm a CMP Garand Junkie now ;)))) got a SG SA and a SG HRA....talk about a fun gun that's put together!!), but wasn't sure if they were good or not.  Now I know.  I'll also plan on getting the Zedicker book.  I've heard the Tubb book is good, but is about as fun to read as an encyclopedia.

Alan,

The ammo was fittin in my GI 20 rounders just fine today.  On the box it says Hornady 3D brand. .223 Rifle 75 gr. MATCH N/C  The brass is LC. and it SHOOTS.  I ordered it from Maj. Carl Leisinger at Cal III enterprises outaa Joisey.  Cost $220 for 1000 rounds shipped.  Guys at the range today were saying "for what it costs and for how it shoots, why reload?"

Sinister,

I'd love to make it out to Perry this year, but honestly I'm afraid I'd be embarassed at my shooting.  Hopefully by next year, I'll have a lot more practice under my belt, and a more steady job (read...better money) that will allow me to go.  Heck, if I win the Army job this summer, I know when I'm filing for my vacation ;)))))))))

I don't know if the s(h)ituation at Ft. Meade has gotten any better or not.  I know after 9/11 it was all but impossible to get in to shoot.  For now I shoot at a little range in Carroll County that goes out to 200. It's better than nothing.

Thanks a ton guys!!

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
Bal'mer, MD, - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 00:02:55 (ZULU)



Ok Guys

The official Welcome Letter to SniperQuest is posted on my website. It lists equipment that you may want to bring and also, several types of shooting situations that you may encounter. Good luck to all contestants! Welcome packets will be mailed to all contestants first part of next week.

Bobby Whittington Email this member See this member's profile
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 00:17:23 (ZULU)



Rich, listen -- no reason to EVER be embarrassed about your shooting ability.

My first match at Perry was the 1999 President's Hundred.  I had only fired Service Rifle since February.

I was standing on the 200 yard berm in Slow Fire (for those of you who have never fired the National Match Course, you have one minute to fire one round (10 or 20 rounds) when in standing slow fire at 200 yards, or prone slow fire at 500 or 600 yards).  I thought, "I've wanted to do this since I was 12.  I'm shooting with 1300 of the best service rifle shooters in the country.  I'm shooting at the Nationals at Camp Perry.  I'm firing in the President's Hundred...

and I have absolutely no idea where I fired those last five rounds."

I kept looking around for the Ohio Fisheries guy who I'm sure was trying to give me a ticket for killing the Walleyes out in Lake Erie.

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 01:00:39 (ZULU)


Jim Wise & Bolt, I spoke with George earlier today. He has not received any emails from you two. Perhaps this was the email issue that Marius wrote about.

George sent out a bulk email to everybody that ordered one stating that all the SC rifles will be done by May 9th. If anybody has a rifle outstanding, make certain that you have forwarded on a correct FFL and the balance of the payment to George. I have #29 and it is friggin sweet!

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
CA - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 01:01:09 (ZULU)


I just started loading ammo for my Spring vacation at the Whittington Center and was wanting to seat the bullets for my stealth out near the lands.  The problem is that the lands are >3" and the Midway ammo boxes I use will not close on ammo longer than about 2.90 - 2.95.  I tried a new MTM 50 rd box I just got in and I think they will fit, bullet down but with the bullet out so far, I'm afraid the bullet will jar out or may even pull out when removed from the plastic 'holder.'

What are you guys using to haul your 'carefully' loaded competition ammo?  Even if the ammo will fit in the MTM cases, I am hesitant to jump on another 20 boxes..., they ain't cheap!

'lito

I was able to contact Midway before they shipped the Forrester seater and Redding sizer, they are including the Lyman 'M' die...  I hope to get it right one of these days!!!!

Thanks for all of ya'lls help.  I've learned a great deal here.

Larry

(Sharon)

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 01:08:28 (ZULU)


Rich: Please accept a kind word from an old guy who spent most of his working career, and virtually all of his life, on the steep side of the leaning curve. Shooters are among the nicest people in the world, almost all of whom positively LOVE to help out a new shooter who has no idea of what he's doing. By NOT going to Perry, you will not only deny yourself of an opportunity to learn more than you probably could in a year by yourself, but you'll rob those people of an opportunity to contribute to your growth as a shooter. Why rob yourself AND those folks of that?

My advice is, if you can afford to take the time off, go, and shoot. I may be there myself, and I'll practically guaran-damn-tee that you can outshoot me, so there's no way you'll be last. And you'll have memories of the times and people that you'll treasure the rest of your life.

One of novelist John D. MacDonald's characters once said that he had a couple categories of regrets: things he did he wished he hadn't, and things he didn't do he wished he'd done - and it was the latter category that hurt the most. That's consistent with my experience as well.

Life becomes much easier when you can say, "I don't know how to do this - can you help?" You can even do something guys are not supposed to do - like ask directions.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 01:14:57 (ZULU)


Rich, listen to Sinister! Shoot the match. Nobody on this site can claim to shoot as bad as I do. I have actually learned to laugh with the people that are laughing at me.

Last match, first shot, "WTF, where'd the boolit go?". Second shot, "WTF, where'd the boolit go?". Third shot, you guessed it, "WTF, where'd the boolit go?". Five shoots later I found the target. Shot the last 19 shots in rapid fire since there were only 10 minutes left of the 20. Had a good 100 yard zero on my HBV but I didn't know it would shoot a lot flatter than my PSS and didn't need as much elevation at 1000. Was shooting way over the target.

On a sad note.....

A long time fishin bud has come down with cancer. I AM REALLY GETTING TIRED OF PEOPLE THAT I KNOW GETTING SICK! The bad thing about working at a hospital is you not only see people you don't know that are sick, but you see your friends that are sick also. Every time this happens it makes me want to give up my tackle business, work one job and enjoy life more.

Rick....

I can't be there either Sunday. Saving the dinero for the matches on 5/17,18 and the big one on 6/27,28,29.

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 01:29:50 (ZULU)



Hi guys on the topic of Alti Baro etc ask  one of them fly boys or girls about  DA, density  altitude and the calcs to work it out

based on temp and QnH (or baro) and Rh relitive humidity.

will get a mate who is a pio-let  to give me calcs and I will post.

they will effect the aircrafts proformance so it will do the same

to the projectile.

To all the men and women who wopped Sadams butt  thanks

   the NZ govt didn`t support the war so i mthinkin about joining the Auzie army,at least the govt `s got some balls

Cheers Rich

Richard Email this member See this member's profile
Takapuna, Auckland, New Zealand - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 02:37:15 (ZULU)


First two replies re: "New" Varget from Florida Highpower (http://forums.delphiforums.com/flahighpower/messages/?msg=5331.2)

5331.2 in reply to 5331.1 

Don't let Hodgdon kid you. They have known for quite some time about the pressure variations in their powder from lot to lot. I can assure you that pressure / velocity has decreased SIGNIFICANTLY over the past few years. Pressure / velocity appears to be stabilizing in lots dated August 2002 until now and this has been confirmed by Hodgdon due to numerous complaints. Whether this trend continues is yet to be seen.

Pressure / Velocity aside it still shoots well and is the powder of coice for many medium case medium weight bullet shooters. Extreme care must be taken and retesting must be done when changing lot #'S unfortunately.

Dan

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited 5/1/2003 9:22:46 PM ET by ISHOOT308

 

From:  German (GERMANS1)    2:16 am 

To:  DAVE    (3 of 3)   5331.3 in reply to 5331.1 

Dave, I've gone from 45.3 to 47.0 grains of Varget over the past 5 years to maintain 2950 to 2980 in .308/155 loads.  This is in several different rifles that my teammates and I shoot.  It's been getting consistently and noticeably slower.  Hopefully it is now stabilized as Dan has indicated.

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 02:42:58 (ZULU)



Fallen warriors.  This is "must read":

http://www.opinionjournal.com/medialog/?id=110003435

If democracy works in Iraq, the Iranian and Syrian governments will fall from within.  The leaders of those governments know this, thus they have no choice but to try to drive us from Iraq.  Assad has said that his model is his father's actions vis a vis Israel in Lebanon.  Iran is sending agents to organize Iraq's Shiites.

The war has changed, but its not over.

Our intel people have learned that Iraq's previous government had a hand in al Qaeda's ops.  I said as much immediately following 9-11.

Michael Moore is a liar and gullible Hollywood dim-bulbs gave him the best Documentary Oscar for "Bowling for Columbine":  http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp

Circulate these links and boycott the sack of s*t.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 03:53:56 (ZULU)


Rich, go to Perry.  If you need a room, let me know, you can stay in my hut and I'll be more than happy to bore you to tears with Camp Perry tales and ply you with beer.  

Going to Camp Perry is like having the opportunity to drive in the Indy 500, except we use guns and it's a much more collegiate atmosphere.  You may find yourself on the next point over from the guys who will win the match, and they will be more than happy to BS with you the entire time in the pits.  Everyone will be more than happy to help you, if you are willing to accept help.  Shooting skill is not required, as long as you're safe, know how to pull pit duty and can keep them on the paper, you're OK.  As long as you go with the program, things will be fine.  Just another shooter among 1000's.  Everybody gets treated the same.  With that John Holliger gun, your rifle is as good as anyone on the line, and it's all user skill.  It's why I shoot SR, less "gear de jour" BS.  If you have not met John Holliger yet, I'll be happy to introduce you.  He was my coach the year our team won the Minuteman Trophy('91).  But you have to show up.  

Honestly, it's best to shoot the whole first(CMP) week.  Hit the practice match, get Perry zeroes(which seem to be different than anyplace else on earth) and get into the spirit.  It's one of the throwbacks to a better time.  It's like the Swiss shooting get togethers, squared.  Every American should go at least once in their life, like the Muslims go to Mecca.  It's a shame the DCM got canned(I hate you, bill clinton), it was great to see over 2000 people at the NTI and Pres.  I've shot the NRA week, but I'm not going to this year, I think I'll go home after the Rumbold and then come back and shoot the LR matches.  The CMP week is pretty packed, early starts and late days.  NRA week is more laid back, with all the primadonna bolt gunners there;)

If you are not convinced to go to Perry by now, I don't know that there's more we could say.  It's the chance to talk with the best and brightest in the sport.  It's an American tradition that goes back to a better time.  And if you don't go, I'm going to arrange for bad things to happen to you;)  

Those are NOT A-maxes, those are the 75gn HPBT's and they work just fine.  I am currently using the experimental Hornady 80gn HPBT's loaded mag length, but I can't see the difference between them and 75's.  Maybe for the Rattle Battle where you shoot them at 600 they might be worth it?  Of course, last year I sucked so bad in the Rattle Battle I might as well have been throwing rocks.  S/F...Ken M

         

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 04:45:29 (ZULU)



All this talk of Camp Perry makes me want to go there. I live 30 miles west of Perry. I have a CMP Garand, SCLE rifle, CAR 15, and a chinese M1A and a match Hawken. I don't know squat about competitve shooting or about Perry.Would appreciate any info. Lived here 10 months and still have not hooked up with a range in this area.I need some trigger time. Thanks for the help.

Fred

Fred Hartman Email this member See this member's profile
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 05:05:20 (ZULU)


Rich,

These guys beat me to it... good advice all round. No one mentioned Jim Hill's video "service rifle competition basics" it was made when the dinosaur ruled and features the m1a but the basics still apply. Also G.D. Tubb's videos could provide some info, but you have a bunch of match rifle stuff that doesn't fully apply to Service Rifle - again basics are basics. I have both but no VCR's to copy at the moment.  Hit me with snail mail addy at s_uhall@riflemen.net and I'll see if I can manage to find 'em and make you copies.

I would get John Feamster's book "Black Magic" - it's a little dated being from 1997 but there are some good ideas on the AR in there - Especially concerning ammo. John went out and tested things like fully prepped brass and trickled charges against stuff rolled on a progressive. You'd be surprised at the results. Both of Zediker's books are good reads too.

Best advice is to find a load that works well at 300 with a 77smk, or 75 Hornady then put the same load under an 80smk .010" off the lands and go shoot until you are solidly in master class. THen you can consider messing with stuff, but you probably won't.

*HINT* ~ 24gr Varget (depending on lot#), or ~24.5gr RE15... Rem 7 1/2's, CCI BR4's, or the CCI mil equivalents (don't remember the number).... some use Federal, others use the older chrome cup WW - the new stuff with the blue boxes and non plated cups seem to be softer... Don't reload Federal Brass it is too soft for the AR, and if you pruchase once fired don't get fully processed from Scharch - hit me via email for the story. THey may have fixed the non-problem but I ain't taking a chance.

Molly ~ PA-TOOEY~ is up to you.......

Other than that, see if fatboy has finished organizing all of my email to him into a book that I can start getting royalties on! HA!

Dave, I don't know where the hut are this year, but I guarantee they are likely $15 or more per rack and can be damn hard to get anymore... Unless I heard wrong, Volunteers get first pick, then either the  state junior teams & support personell or the disabled shooters, last on the list is joe average powder burner. Many guys are getting together and renting condos for the tho or three weeks they are there. Slpit the cost 9 or 10 ways.

From Maryland, you should be able to shoot Quantico, NewHolland in PA, I ahve heard of a couple ranges in the Philly NJ area but I have no details on them... Reade Range is in the west\center part of PA a little west of Altoona. Ohio Rifle and pistol has a Regional and LEG scheduled every Memorial day weekend at Perry also. White Horse shooting Facility near Peal Tree WVA has 600 & 1000 yard matches also.

Probably forgot something, but I have to go to bed now.

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 05:06:27 (ZULU)


Rich,

     What Sinister and Lindy said!

     About your Hornady ammo - do the bullets have red polymer tips? If so they are the A-Max bullets. If they just have a small opening at the tip they are the HPBT Match bullets, like the ones that I load. I'm just trying to find out if they came up with a way to seat the 75gr. A-Max to magazine length and still make it fly fast enough. I suspected that your ammo is loaded with the HPBT Match variety, and if so, there's nothing wrong with that! Just trying to get the details correct in my head:-)

     Also, to keep the record straight - what I said about you being an FNG without a coach was NOT meant to discourage you, just to give you more reasons to buy the books, study them, and put in the range time!

ALAN

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 05:09:18 (ZULU)


AHHH the feelings when you finally get to shoot on "hallowed ground" - been ten years and I remember it like yesterday ~ and like Dave remembers it ~ I first went out with an M1 Garand that I did the NM work up on myself (except for the barrel install), a Clint Flwler built double lug M1a, and several AR's.....

Most high power shooters will not only help you, they will often lend you a rifle an ammo if you need it! Too many years of experience out there not to take advantage of it.

That said, get some experience shooting full course matches with pits... suffice to say you should know how to pull targets and you should have your feces coagulated when it come to being able to get you stuff to the line and set up. You ever hear of a "New York Minute"? Well that's about 360 "Camp Perry Seconds"..... Perry will teach you a few things about being organized.

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 05:22:10 (ZULU)


Oh yeah.... VARGET:

Lot # 8 0528983470 - old lot purchased at Perry in 98 or 99.

45 grains, LC 64 case, 175smk @ 2.80" OAL Ave Vel 2750.5 SD 7.9 ES 17

45.5 grains same components as above ave vel 2782.7 SD 14.8 ES 41

With this lot of Varget the 44.0gr load was pretty close the the 2685 we're looking for.

Lot# 8 1114013790 - new lot purchased from fellow shooter last season (HE told me that he was having trouble getting it up to speed in his AR and had given up on Varget because of it - price was too good to pass up). May have been bought by said shooter the previous winter.

45 grains, LC 64 case, 175smk @ 2.80" OAL Ave Vel 2641.3 SD 14.8 ES 46

45.5 grains same components as above ave vel 2678.8 SD 15.5 ES 47

These were shot side by side over three days from the same Rem 700 HVY barrel 24"..... 30 shots each load - 10 per day... Temps were between 65* and 75* Baro??? dunno... I wasn't looking at the groups, just the crono at 15 feet. Groups were about 1" or so.

SO, no matter what anyone "says" I have the proof blowing out the end of my barrel with a bang!

And just in case you want more, we got similar results from this lot vs another lot (Don't have the lot number) out of an SCLE rifle....

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
If'n you're gonna stir the shixt, use a paddle 'cuz a stick ain't quite big enough, - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 05:42:59 (ZULU)


Critter; Ditto on the remarks about the map. Nothing works as good and only enhances the use of GPS and standard bearings. No problem by the way. I don't blame Lito' for not wanting another dose of the clapp we had last week but you'll not likely set me off. The worst thing I fear is when someone I like and basically agree with is down on me. The only thing worse is when they're down on me and I don't have a clue why. Hopefully it won't happen again soon, but It's all a part of being 12 years old. Maybe I'll grow up some day and watch what I say before I've said it.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 06:32:14 (ZULU)


Is there a published book on Chuck Mawhinney????

Semper Fi

Bomac Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 06:40:29 (ZULU)


Alan,

    Thanks again, I will take you up on your offer. I'm going to do my own "plumbing" too. I just can't make the barrel (yet). The AR is fun to work on but I won't put any real smiths out of work.

Bill,

    Got you 5x5. I think the newest gagets are cool but I want to know how to do "X" "the old way". I also want to know how and why it works. So I can: a) make it, b) fake it, c) break it, d) improve it, e) all of the above. My father says that something isn't really mine until I take it apart, drill a hole in it, tie a cord to it, and paint it green. Oh Yeah, E-mail inbound.

Pay attention to basics and don't experiment in a vacuum (or was that WITH the vacuum).

Continuing to spell the Olde Wae,

  Critter

Web Crittenden Email this member See this member's profile
there is no school solution to tactics, - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 07:54:06 (ZULU)


Guys,

I was finally able to get my complete review of the new McMillan A-5 stock posted here on Sniper Country (Thanks Marius).  

http://www.snipercountry.com/inreviews/mcmillan_a-5_stock.asp

My thanks to Kelly McMillan, Matt Williams, George Gardner, and all the guys on SnipersHide.com who gave their input to Kelly, and enabled him to build the best tactical stock available (or soon to be available).  I screwed up on the url in the article for Williams Firearms Company.  Their correct url is http://www.williamsfirearms.com.

Rich S.,

Your binocs are going out in today's mail.

Don

Don K. Email this member See this member's profile
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 13:08:12 (ZULU)


Rich

on the Highpower books, I would also recommend "Modern Highpower Competition" By Randolph Constantine. Tons of very good info. Covers the different types service rifle, match rifle,  what gear you need and why it helps. Spotting scope selection and how and where to set it up. Positional shooting, use of the sling, the list goes on and on. Parts of it may seem a little out of date particularly the ballistics stuff as so much has happened with bullet choice in .223 in the last few years but there is a LOT of useful info in there.

I also have Black Magic and  The Complete Guide to AR-15 Accuracy.  It sounds like you already have the right tool for the job from Mr Holliger and the Hornady ammo will do just fine for everything until you get a few miles under your belt, so I would get the Modern Highpower Competition book first. It gives the best all round info for FNG’s. I know, because I am one!   The Black Magic book has loads of very good info if you want to reload or experiment a bit or move to Match rifle and The Complete Guide to AR-15 Accuracy  is great for the “home gunsmith”. JMHO

Mark D

Mark D Email this member See this member's profile
London, UK - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 13:23:41 (ZULU)


Sinister said,

"Dave, I've gone from 45.3 to 47.0 grains of Varget over the past 5 years to maintain 2950 to 2980 in .308/155 loads.  This is in several different rifles that my teammates and I shoot.  It's been getting consistently and noticeably slower.  "

Well, it's easy to see what's happening.........they are adding filler....LOL

You are getting 45 less loadings per 8# jug, by having to go to the NEW chg wt's...

Inflation, the scourge of the the universe.....(((;

There's more than ONE way to get an increase in profits..

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 13:41:27 (ZULU)



Steve "Hockeyref":  Your Varget experiment sounds convincing.  Do you have the raw data?  If so, I'd like to look at it.  

Krauthammer on Iranian actions in Iraq:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3117-2003May1.html

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 13:50:06 (ZULU)


Rumor has it that Peter Senich is working on a book about Mawhinney.

Work in progress.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 14:44:16 (ZULU)


DAN,

I can't get to the data right now....I'm at wo*k. I gotta load some ammo as soon as I get home and then pick up the rug rats from grandma & papap.... I'll be on the road at too damn early tomorrow morning for a long range match weekend in WVA .... I'll email you the data as soon as I get a chance but it may be Monday sometime.

I just hope I did the SD stuff correctly on the new calculator.

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 15:12:59 (ZULU)


Steve(Hockeyref),

Do you have any additional info on the New Holland, PA range you mentioned?  I hear they have a 600yd range?  I've tried to call but never got an answer.  Do you have any good contact info?

Thanks alot,

JohnB

ajbechtell@yahoo.com

john bechtell Email this member See this member's profile
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 15:14:35 (ZULU)



I was driving to work today and the DJ on the radio read a dedication for a little girl who was having her first Communion.  Nothing special, except her dad was a truck Captain with NYFD, killed on 9/11 at age 40, on his birthday.  He left a wife and four children.

On 9/11, I held the equivalent rank, on a truck, in a New Jersey fire department about an hour drive west of the WTC, and I was just a few years younger than this man.

Back when I was 19, in 1985, I was involved in a car accident in my home town, on interstate I-78.  I was bloody and beat up pretty good, but could walk and was wandering around the scene, stunned, when a guy just a few years older than me walked up, put his arm around me and told me "It's gonna be OK, sit down here, I'll be back in a second."  He walked off, checked on the other victims of the crash and came back to me and said "how you feel brother, a little better?".....my response was "brother?"...He said "yeh, brother... your a firefighter aint ya? (I was wearing a fire service shirt)... he continued "I'm on the job with NYFD", he mentioned the truck company he was with...He stuck around till the locals showed up... as he was leaving he said "take care, brother".

Please, today, think of your loved ones, your wife, husband, children, parents...think what it would be like if someone murdered all of them...  I hope very much that it makes you angry.  Now think of the thousands of families ripped apart on 9/11 by a terrorist organization bent on removing from you your loved ones, your property and your freedom, and finally, your life.

After that message on the radio, I  had to turn around, drive back home and hug my daughter who is now 6 months old.

Please, let this message refresh the anger, and the memory of the innocents indirectly destroyed on 9/11... please remember and do your part to make sure this cannot happen again to your brother's children.  

 

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 15:46:55 (ZULU)



Steve ~Hockeyref:  This e-mail thing is broke.  If its only 60 data points you should post it here.  I'll run a hypothesis test on excel and post my results and methodology.  Anyone who stayed awake in 1st semester stats can do the same.

If you did this right (and I suspect that you did), there's about a 1% chance that Varget is unchanged.

medicjim:  We all remember the 300 firefighters who rushed in to the WTC knowing they would die.  Before they went in, a television reporter interviewed some of those men who said as much.  One of my nephews is a firefighter who responded to the Pentagon attack.  He would have gone in to the WTC.  

Last night President Bush said that "...they wanted a war.  They got one."

Old proverb:  Be careful what you wish for.  You might get it.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 16:42:25 (ZULU)


Jimmy D,

Sorry if your question has already been answered with regards the baromters, this may be old hat. I've only skipped through the last few days posts and yours caught my eye and I didn't notice a specific reply.  Anyway, I have the Brunton/Brunto or whatever (its a Silva in the UK, but exactly the same) and it gives either corrected or absolute (uncorrected) readings.  I can't speak for the Kestrel.  Hope this helps.

Jon

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 2, 2003, at 18:21:32 (ZULU)


Medicjim: We won't forget. Nor will we forgive.

CDC: I got one message for those, including the Dixie Chicks, the Eurotrash, and the pseudo-American liberals who consider George W. to be just another Texas cowboy: "Don't Mess with Texas."

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 19:08:18 (ZULU)


Hey Guys,

Thanks so much to all of youse who have been helping me with all the Hi Power stuff.  I've got ALL sorts of books and videos now ordered ;)))))  Let mah edjumacation begin!!!

Alan,

re: FNG.  Hell man, it takes a lot more than that to ruffle my feathers!!!! When I came here back in '97 I was an FNG then with only a .22 rifle.  Everything I now know, I've learned from guys here at SC, SH and other sites.  I don't think Perry will be financially possible for me this year (Fiancee and I are grad student/adjunct professor/musicians...and I've spent WAAAAY over my budget on toys this year....SCLE, CMP Garands, new Colt ser 70.  Got two "mandatory" parental visits AND I gotta spend all my other time preparing for the Army audition).  It certainly isn't that the will isn't there, I mean I AM going to Perry, just probably not this year. BUT if I start saving now I'm there next year.  As of now, I'm on a mission.

Thanks guys...for everything.

Rich S.

Rich S. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 19:44:40 (ZULU)


First Stop Guns in Rapid City SD has a number of factory refubished bipods in stock. Several heights to choose from. Their number is 605-341-5211.

Rifle Raffle??????? Bolt gun!

I need a new GOOD stick!

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin Email this member See this member's profile
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 21:21:39 (ZULU)


Some helpfull hints for New Bee's

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jesse99/caseprep.html

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin Email this member See this member's profile
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 21:29:45 (ZULU)


medicjim,

I damn sure won't forget.

That night, I got a call from one of my colleagues from the Engineering Department I worked in a few years before, in Montvale, NJ. He told me that another colleague had gone down (fighting, I'm sure) on Flight 93.

He also told me that yet another colleague, a Montvale firefighter, was watching the TV coverage that day in the office with tears running down his face, saying, "We just lost half of the firefighters in New York City."

I've shipped thousands of my product to Army, Navy, Marines, and to personnel in coalition forces......quite a few have been freebies. I tell them all the same thing: "Use it well, and use it often."

To quote an old Southern bumper sticker:

"Fergit, Hell!"

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, May 2, 2003, at 22:03:42 (ZULU)


The 3 gun tactical match WCRC was hosting May 10/11 has been cancelled due to a lack of national guardsmen to run the range.  We will be looking to reschedule to later in the year.

Saturday the 10th, we will hold a shoot what you like practice in it's place.

Sorry for all the trouble and dicking around with this match guys, but the war takes first priority.  As I'm sure you all understand.

Chris...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 03:20:39 (ZULU)


Gents,

JS, Can you let me know if I got the Tactical Tailor Ghillie you had on the Emporium.

Getting ready for duty tomorrow. Back to fun and games with our miscreants, again.

More tomorrow eve...

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 03:45:37 (ZULU)


Rich;

   I know what you mean. I've been going to Camp Perry for a few years now and ain't made it there yet. Seems like something always stops me. I'm going to get there one day, even if it hairlips everybody on Bear Creek!

   How many CMP Garands do you have?

John Bechtell;

   Any relation to the Bechtell company that got the USAID contract to rebuild Iraq?

                       LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 04:11:04 (ZULU)



Bill wrote, "...The worst thing I fear is when someone I like and basically agree with is down on me. The only thing worse is when they're down on me and I don't have a clue why..."

Bill, it looked like I posted some trivial tidbit of standard doctrine then you keyed off on me.  When I tried to clarify, it got worse.  I have absolutely lost patience with that.  Given our history, banter between you and I doesn't come across well in this format.  It should be completely avoided.

"Hopefully it won't happen again soon, but It's all a part of being 12 years old. Maybe I'll grow up some day and watch what I say before I've said it."

I am prepared to believe that I misinterpret your posts, and you do not understand mine.  Any discussion between us that takes place on this board should be technical, polite and brief.  In person it would probably be completely different.

Sorry for the brutal language.  Sometimes I'm not very nice.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 04:36:32 (ZULU)



Being from Texas and having never been to NYC, I could have given a shit about the twin towers before 9-11. I am sure they were majestic buildings. But having never seen them personally, they were just two more skyscrapers among many to me.

... but not now.

We were in our detective shift meeting when they came down. We watched the second plane hit, live on TV. Hell, we all wanted to go enlist afterwards.

Now, when I even see a photo of them when they were standing, I always view them with awe and silent respect. Hallowed ground.

The Texas Tower is the same. That thing rises up like a giant tombstone. Friggin' eerie place at night boys.

If any of you guys ever get to Austin on business or whatever; let me know. I will tell you some things to look for on the tower site at the UT campus that many would not know to look for. You guys would really be interested. That was a horrible day.

My guys and I did a recon one night after a tac class and discovered a few things. I pointed them out to Gary Lavergne who wrote "A Sniper in the Tower". He was amazed. His office is in the tower now, ironically. Dat boy is a Cajun too, mon ami.

Glad to be counted among you fellas. Hope you are all well.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 04:43:26 (ZULU)


Rich, you might want to consider coming out to Perry for a day or two just to look around/figure it out.  It will give you a jump on the following year.  If you can get a cheapie ticket into Toledo, I'll pick you up at the airport and drive you around.  The chance to browse commercial row is worth it by itself.  

You cannot escape, it is your destiny.....

S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 04:51:02 (ZULU)


Medicjim,

       I know how you feel and I won't ever forget, in fact click on my name for a little review, gets the blood running every time I watch it.   What makes me even more mad is that so many people have lost that anger we all felt right after 9-11.  I was 11 days into my marriage and 10 days into being a first time dad (though I didn't find out until Oct, my son is now 11 months old).  The world we grew up in no longer exist.  Some people don't see that but they will some day.  We can never let up until the threat is gone, that is going to be many years from now and several "military actions" down the road.  We have them on the run, to let up now and say they learned a lesson is just stupid.  Thank GOD, Gore didn't win the election, that thought just makes me want to puke.  Bush winning was the best thing for this country though the reasons were almost a year off just why that was.

     Been off the roster for a while, got kind of crazy around here.  Was asked by the owner of my company to help with a "restructure".  Ended up with a big promotion, so more money, way less free time, more paper work, less field time.  Was starting to get kind of burnt on the whole full time medic thing anyway.  Then 2 weeks ago my wifes heart goes haywire (known about the condition since she was 17, never caused a serious problem till now)  Heart goes to 245 beats per min, she is home with our son, I'm on duty.  Ended up taking my own wife to the ER.  None of the regular meds worked, she stayed at that rate for 4 hrs, finaly got it slowed to 125 bpm, shipped her to Reno to ICU, procedure to try to "burn" the part of the heart that causes the fast heart rate fails for the second time, waiting for a specialist to come up from LA to run some new machine to try a 3rd time.  Wife is home for now and taking all kinds of pills.  I think its time for a vacation.

Bob

Robert H Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 06:35:13 (ZULU)


John,

You have incoming E-Mail - No Attachments !

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan Email this member See this member's profile
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 06:36:44 (ZULU)


Brian k. Sain,

    I took shows into the theater at UTA, every year for a decade. It astounds me how many people don't know what happened there. I spent some time working fireing solutions from differnt points. What a place, I agree about night there.

On sniper locations:

    The city of Brugge in Belgium is incredible, you can see the history written in POI marks around probable hide sites. Most of the courtyards have bricks knocked out at about shoulder hight from Panzers turning hard. Most windows have either a repair or a hole a foot under the sill, left over from fireing positions. I talked to a few guys who fought there and got some great history.

On 9/11 aftermath:

   If you live or work in or near NYC, you can't miss the two big holes in the sky. Alot of people will never forget the plume or the smell. I have a whole new vision of Tolkien's "Mordor".

   Even if you live in American Samoa, they where YOUR towers.

MedicJim,

   I asked about who was there, because of somthing that made me think about it kind of out of the blue. A few days ago, I was with my father at a discount warehouse store in Eire PA. I saw a huge pile of rubber boots next to a pile of clothing. Ding! memory trigger. I understand your response to the DJ. I do that too. I found a Matchbox toy fire truck in the street last year, sombody had stepped on it. I couldn't throw it out, it now lives on my computer monitor.

This Night Owl better go to bed.

-Critter

Web Crittenden Email this member See this member's profile
there is no school solution to tactics, - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 08:58:23 (ZULU)



Dan; agreed. Face to face I have few enemies but this is a small place and every knows everyone, The sarcastic tone you detect is mostly best interpreted as some kind of humor attempt if you can see what goes with it it's easier to do. Here it can be taken literally and that's usually out of the context it's meant. Sometimes it gets a bit dehydrated.  There's a local clerk, wife of a friend who's a bit hard to kid and way too keyed up at times. The other day where she worked I asked her for a pair of sissors. When she asked what I wanted them for, she said that wasn't a job for sissors. I replied by saying "you mean YOU have used a pair of sissors?". Translated that meant "YOU probably have used many more sissors than me so I'll take your word for it!" She missed it, and complained about me to one of my other fellow workers, who said to her.."There's no way he would be serious, he never intends to offend anyone but he kids a lot... I presume not to tease the lady about anything again.

IT was my mistake.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 13:14:44 (ZULU)


Another weekend of rain, correction MONSOONs. Last night a tornado about six miles from the abode, today more rain, tomorrow more rain. Anyone know of a 1000 yard indoor range? How's a girl supposed to learn to shoot if it rains every time she gets an opportunity? I reckon I'm going to have to suck it up and start practicing in the rain, very distressing. I know I won't melt but the possible rustication of my multi hundred dollar rifles is not a perty thought. Becoming a wuss in my aging years I suppose.

Anywho, those of you that are planning to shoot Butner tomorrow better call the range office first if it is pouring rain in the morning. Unfortunately, I've got other commitments. Here's the schedule for the rest of the year at Butner:

http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/Frames/Frame_Schedule.htm

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 14:22:13 (ZULU)


Bob,

my best wishes for your wife.  Hope all goes better than expected and you guys can enjoy a vacation with the rugrat.

Chris...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 14:55:12 (ZULU)



Been a while so how 'bout a story:

On 3-11 patrol one July and it was damn hot out. Had been out on a wreck scene and stopped in a convenience store to get a coke.

As I came towards the store, still a ways off, four homeboys sped off in an old Oldsmobile. Not "just robbed the place screaming away" but damn sure getting away. They hadn't even noticed me. Hmmmmmm

I get to the store and there is a Ford Ranger in the lot and an old guy putting a Remington Speedmaster back in the rifle rack (don't see either of those much anymore). Had on overalls. Coon dog kennel and a big Kerr dog in the truck bed.

I saw the deal right off but acted like I didn't see the rifle.

The old man was scared.

Not of them but of me.

I got to the door, opened it and stopped.

I turned and nodded at the fella. He nodded back in silent reply, nervous, and started to get in his truck.

I turned to walk in and I couldn't stand it. I turned back and said "Sir".

Yes?

I gave him what my mama calls a "shit eating grin" to ease the tension and said:

"You look like you can handle that Rem'ton. You'da killed every one of 'em wouldn't ya?"

Yes sir.

Well, thanks for holding back. I got enough paperwork for one afternoon.

Afternoon, officer.

Same to you sir.

BKS

NRA (Lifer)

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 14:56:42 (ZULU)


Folks, I saw the discussion from a couple of days ago concerning the Ramshot "TAC" powders and thought I would pass this along.

I spoke with Shawn Kelly at Western Powders about a week ago concerning this same issue.  Here is what he told me about the TAC powder.  

It was developed specifically for the 308 cartridge.  It is a little faster than Varget on their burn rate scale. It is a ball powder and it burns clean.  When I asked about temperature sensitivity he said that they had been concerned with temperature sensitivity before the other manufacturers started addressing the issue with extreme powders, etc.. He said that the TAC powder was not sensitive to temperature changes.  He also indicated that the powder was very consistent from lot to lot.

I asked about Black Hills using their powder and he said he wasn't 100% sure but he thought BH used their powders exclusively.

He gave me the following load data for the TAC powder with a 175 SMK.

42.0gr. – 2588 fps

43.5gr. – 2681 fps

44.5gr. – 2734 fps

I currently am shooting 43.3 grains of Varget out of my 700 PSS that George reworked and installed a 20” Mike Rock barrel onto.  So this data is tracking close to my actual loads.

Shawn is in their sales department so caveat emptor. His number is 800-497-1007 if you are interested in talking to him yourself.  Click on my name to go to their website.

FWIW this may be something to look into if Varget doesn’t get their act together.

See you guys at ASC2.

Keith

Keith Email this member See this member's profile
North Central, WV, - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 15:00:56 (ZULU)



If anyone doubts that this country BADDLY needs tort reform, read this!  A "Professional White Hunter" is suing because he shot a lion with a bullet that didn't expand, and it went right through, not "Instantly" killing the beast.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/3828803.html

For those that don't know about these things, you can NOT "kill" a lion that is charging from 30 paces (in time to save your life), with an expanding bullet... you MUST break the front shoulder of a charging lion to stop the charge and save your ass.

And a "Professional White Hunter" didn't know this?????  Gimme un breako, porfavor!

He will loose the suit, but ALL of us shooters will pay the lawer's bills :((

-

Keith...

Thanks for the dope on "Tac"... I will be giving it a HARD look next month.  See you at ASC#2.

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 15:28:36 (ZULU)


Jody Calhoun,

No I am no relation to the Bechtel corp that got the contract.  I have an extra "L" on the end of my name.  Maybe I should drop the L and make a claim to a stake in the company!

JohnB

John Bechtell Email this member See this member's profile
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 15:29:37 (ZULU)


Brian,

Thank you for the story! You really have to write a book about your life, it cracks me up! I just wish that there were more guys like you out there. When I go to the range I practically have to do load my car under the cover of night, for the fear that some neighbor would freak out. (even with the weapons cased).

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 15:49:02 (ZULU)



Hey Marius and/or Sarge,

I'd like to talk with you all about a review.  As you all are aware I'm sure, the email links are busted.  Can you all drop me an email? Thanks.

-mike

robertsmj@missouri.edu

Michael Roberts Email this member See this member's profile
MidMO, MO, USA - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 19:00:46 (ZULU)



Hogs,

I've put a temporary email solution in place whereby, once you click on the email link, you are shown a page with the person's email address linked like it always was here.

Use that until I've fixed the other problem.

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 20:21:43 (ZULU)



Local story - just happened:

   Aron Ralston, 27, of Aspen, CO had just ventured to the Canyonlands area of S.E. Utah for some warm weather rock climbing after sucessfully climbing Highlands Ridge (12,400ft. elev.) and the Maroon Bells (14,000ft.) above his home this winter.

   After hiking and climbing about 15mi. into a remote canyon located in The Maze district of Canyonlands National Park, said to be one of the most remote places in the US, he was pinned by a falling 800 lb. boulder and try as he might, he couldn't dislodge his right arm from under this weight. After five days in this predicament he had run out of water and food, and knew that he was about to die there.

   Aron, valuing life over everything else, hacked off his right arm below the elbow with his pocket knife after fastening a tourniquet above the cut, freed himself, and began walking out of the steep canyon where he was trapped, when he was spotted by a rescue helicopter and flown to Allen Memorial Hospital in Moab, UT where he calmly got out of the 'bird on his own and walked into the hospital, warning the Emergency Room doctors that he had lost a lot of blood!! Prognosis is good. He's recuperating at St. Mary's Hospital in Grand Junction, CO.

    Guy's, that particular act of survival ain't limited to coyotes!! Having been trapped from the waist up under a car that fell on me last spring, albeit for only about an hour, I know very slightly how he must have felt, and I wonder if I'd have the courage that this guy did under his circumstances?

ALAN

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 20:36:20 (ZULU)


I suspect that young Mr. Ralston is going to go a long way in life, even with only one arm, because he has the intelligence to recognize what needs to be done, and the fortitude to do it.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 20:57:32 (ZULU)


Jody,

I've got two CMP Garands.  One is a SG SA made in June of '43 and rearsenaled in '52.  The other is a SG HRA in beautiful shape made in '55.  I love 'em.  And you?

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 21:07:50 (ZULU)


Ken M.:

Do you mind if I e-mail you with some questions?

Rich

Rich Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 21:52:07 (ZULU)


Things are going well in Iraq, or, at least, as well as they are in Nigeria - a friend of mine just got a Nigerian 419-style forward-payment fraud email from Iraq. I got one this week from Michael Mobutu, the alleged son of Mobutu Sese Seko, who said that he was in a refugee camp in Switzerland. Well, if I were in a refugee camp, that's where I'd want it to be...

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 22:31:09 (ZULU)



Hello roastah,

Alan,

how come your email sometimes works and now it doesn't?  if you have my address, and if you don't mind, send me your present addy please...I've bounced more times than a check from Bill Clinton...

All,

Well, fellow rostahfarian Jon Beardsley made a trek to the 'Muckletoon' today, and even through the piss poor Scottish weather, we made a day of it.  Hope ya made it home ok Jon, good to see ya again mate..Anytime, you are welcome, as long as you bring your dogs..  ;)

right, well, I'm off to da pub for further research, the things you can learn at a disco!!

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
my closest friend, linoleum - Saturday, May 3, 2003, at 22:37:37 (ZULU)



Alan,

    Thanks for the news on Aron Ralston. The Climbing community and the SAR community are crackeling with massage traffic.  I got a call at six a.m.

-Critter

web crittenden Email this member See this member's profile
there is no school solution to tactics, - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 00:06:03 (ZULU)



This was copied off of Biggerhammer and labeled as UNCLASSIFIED. Very interesting stuff here. (If considered sensitive, I will remove it.)

--

IRAQI PERSPECTIVE FROM A MARINE COLONEL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED

Caveats: NONE

Day 25 - 28 (D+24 to +27). Back on the net again. Have been on the road for a few days. Stopped in an saw some old friends up north with Task Force Tarawa near an-Numaniyah. Morale is high. This is my first attempt as a war correspondent so be patient with me. Most of these comments came from a Colonel and a 1stSgt, but they had collected many of their respective comments from various other sources. These were being passed on to myself and several other officers as lessons learned with the intent that they would be passed along to others entering the fight. You will notice the difference in the level of detail as it changes from the Colonel to the 1stSgt. Most of these are just bullets because I was writing as fast as I could, I hope it gives you a flavor of what your military is facing and the nature of caombat. Col Johnson, G-3 Task Force Tarawa comments were based on observations from combat in and around An-Nasiriyah, and a three hour interview with a captured XO (Executive Officer) of the Iraqi 23d Bde (Brigade) 11th ID (Infantry Division), who provided insight on how his unit fought us. Colonel comments, then the 1st Sgts after that they are in no particular order:

Marine Colonel with TF Tarawa Comments:

Maximum Iraqi use of dummy positions. Tarawa estimates there are in

excess of 50 T-55 hulks in and around An Nasiriyah placed prior to our arrival. Iraqis placed immobile T-55s in hospitals, buildings, schools, etc to create pillboxes. Lots of derelict and destroyed D-30s (Iraqi artillery pieces) as well. He described the carnage where they had come across a D-30 battery that had been destroyed from repeated attacks by 3rd MAW (Marine Aircraft Wing) CAS (Close Air Support) - equipment, uniforms and body parts strewn over a wide area.

Maximum Iraqi use of hospitals, schools... and associated structures

the Iraqis knew would challenge our targeting. Found mortars in building court yards, staked in, with ammo (ammunition) pre-staged. Found a sand table in a school yard with all the friendly positions marked.

IZ (Iraq Zone) Commander and XO was shocked at the aggressiveness of

Marine small unit leaders. He said his fighters were very confident

initially after the first bridge battle, but became dispirited when the Marines kept coming at them (my comment: It appears the attitude established long ago at Belleau Wood is alive and well in the Marines of 1st Marine Expeditionary Force).

No one fought in uniform. Found lots of RG (Republican Guard)

uniforms around the town.

Ba'ath Party was one of the primary agencies for enforcing Saddam's

will on the people. Talked about the Kuwait "Bedoons" (apparently

the Arabic word for homeless). These were Kuwaiti collaborators who

returned to Iraq with the Iraqis in 1991... a bad crowd, thugs and were being used to keep local population under regime control. The Saddam Fedayeen were usually clean shaven, often tattooed, and had lots of money. Lots of evidence that command and control went all the way back to Baghdad. Found torture chambers in Ba'ath Party facilities... people came looking for missing relatives after we took over the Ba'ath Party headquarters in an-Nasiriyah.

Best Intel (intelligence) was from HETs and EPW (Enemy Prisoners of

War) debriefs. This was often turned around on the spot and used by friendly units. Note: HET refers to HUMINT (Human Intelligence) Exploitation Team and describes a Marine Tactical Interrogation Team, doctrinally a 6-man unit.

Marine Snipers were extremely useful. IZ XO talked about the

demoralizing psychological effect our snipers had on his troops.

M-1 (M1A1 Tank) was also a very effective vehicle/asset. The Iraqis

were terrified of it. Psychological vehicles were placed at selected points at night to broadcast tank noise to keep the bad guys awake. One tank had seven dents in it from where RPGs had hit it. Three dents had scorch marks where they had detonated and still had been deflected. It became the unkillable beast and caused them nightmares.

The Iraqis frequently used roadblocks to halt our movement (convoys,

patrols, etc) ... and sometimes spring ambushes on the halted vehicles. That being said the Iraqis were not very effective at night. Several times at night they tried to spring ambushes and didn't position themselves correctly and ended up taking each other out or suppressing each others fire long enough for us to engage them. The Iraqis however were very effective at sneaking between friendly units in an attempt to cause blue on blue (friendly on friendly) casualties.

Iraqis were very conscientious about burying dead- even friendly

dead. Sometimes Task Force Tarawa intentionally left dead in the street to send a message (sometimes snipers engaged a target and then wouldn't let anyone recover it). Strong Arab feelings about burial of dead.

Suppression worked very well. VT (Variable Timed fuse - explodes when it gets a set distance from the ground) worked well, particularly well when moving up a hostile road... VT also limited collateral damage.

The AC-130 (a flying gunship with miniguns, 105mm howitzer and

bombs) and Predator were highly lethal with limited collateral damage.

CDE (Collateral Damage Evaluation) . "I've got a target, but it's

next to a mosque." Hard decisions had to be made... lots of thought went in zto using the right munitions. TF Tarawa went back and looked at collateral

damage after the fight. Very limited. JDAMs were effective. Artillery caused

significant collateral damage unless VT was used. DPICM (Dual Purpose

Improve Conventional Munitions - artillery shells with smaller bomblets

inside) was very effective. Even in the railroad yard fight, limited

collateral damage. Estimate 250 civilian casualties based on visits to local morgue and follow ups.

Lots of RPG (Rocket Propelled Grenades rounds.... very effective

against Amtraks. Worst incident was when an RPG detonated mortar rounds in an Amtrack full of Marines. Estimates in excess of 2500 RPGs captured. Found Milan missile systems (French made missiles and not the only report of these missiles being found). Ammo was cached everywhere. Possibly in excess of 200 tons found.

The Iraqis used overhead cover effectively. Recommended slant view

VR to look under palm trees, etc. Significant use of bunkers. Sometimes dug under the foundations of homes.

Use of Huey VR (visual reconnaissance) was very effective.

Iraqi AAA (Anti-Air Artillery) was of limited effectiveness.

ZSU-23-2s and ZSU-23-4s (Russian made twin and quad AAA weapons) were not good shooters.

City was divided in to colored zones to aid in targeting and

coordination. For CAS in a built up area... the city was divided up in to colored and numbered sections for coordination.

The population is on our side... for now. Ensure you can deliver on

promises. The people have lots of food, but they need clean water. Said that water will be a huge problem in Baghdad... particularly if the power grid doesn't come back up soon.

There is lots of vengeance and retribution going on. Some community

leaders and tribal leaders are attempting to use Americans to settle old scores against rivals, etc.

Tactical PSYOP were huge. Sometimes just a simple "get off the

street" with a loud speaker. Better to use Free Iraqi interpreters than Kuwaitis. The act of ripping down Saddam posters and statues was effective. Don't touch anything that memorializes the Iran/ Iraq war. Don't touch the Iraqi flag, because of the religious symbols on it which say Allah Akhbar - "God is Great" .

Over 100 friendly casualties from the big fight at the bridge and in

the railyard... too much use of "URGENT" on the medevac requests. Casualty tracking procedures were a nightmare (read challenge)... the nature of fighting was confusing and dispersed, and often the only individuals who knew who was being placed on a helicopter were the actual Marines handling the wounded Marine in question. Many times friendly casualties could not be identified in the heat of battle, and sometimes for a good deal of time afterwards. We preferred to fight at night so that was a compounding factor. A "**** load" (it's a quote) of friendly heat casualties. Huey was CASEVAC bird of choice because you could get it in everywhere.

Huge amounts of UXOS (UneXploded Ordnance). Critical need for EOD

teams to clear areas.

Gave one example of a booby-trapped SA-7 that blew up and wounded a

Marine in the face.

SIGINT (signal intelligence) was very effective on cell phones.

Marine 1stSgt with 3rd LAR Comments:

Morale is high; the Marines have gotten their battle focus straight.

Marines did not expect the well-trained para-military troops they have been facing (most were SRG or RG forces out of uniform cross trained in terror tactics), but quickly adjusted and from that point on were relentless. Weapons systems are performing well, especially the 25mm DU and 7.62. Gas plugs on the 7.62mm MG have been one of the biggest maintenance issues. Units have now taken the spare barrel gas plug; put it in a 7.62 ammo can with enough JP-8 to cover the plug. This self cleans the gas plug as the mission continues. The gunner can now change gas plugs in a matter of seconds and then drops the dirty one in the JP-8. This has worked very well for the units. Everyone I talked to said to bring extra gas plugs!

There has been a few ammunition problems, mainly wrong ammunition

being delivered to units. Division was able to cross level ammunition within the division but it still took time. Additionally, some Division Units were short on initial draw of UBL (unit basic load).

The unit has had several combat losses. Enemy has developed the TTP

of putting an AA Gun in the back of a pickup and shooting into the rear of a tank (Engine compartment) The C Company lost one tank initially to this tactic and then a second after the tank went into a ditch. NOTE: This happened during a sand/dust storm that reduced visibility to less the 5 meters at times. On the good news front, the tank that got hit second also took RPG rounds and a Mortar round to the blowout panels. Good news because the ammunition cooked off with the driver trapped in the engine compartment and the blast doors worked as advertised. Driver was later extricated with no injuries.

Call for Fire has become the norm. A highly motivated FO (Forward

Observer) has motivated all troops to utilize his systems and Call for Fire is now a norm and Marines are getting really good at it. FO's take note!

Maintenance, Maintenance, Maintenance...unit has had very minor

maintenance issues mainly due to good maintenance. Focus changed across the board from "it's on order...to let's get it down" They wished they had not settled for the "it's on order" before they deployed across the LD (Line of Departure). Civilian graphite is the key (Cooper or Liquid Wrench)...according to several tank, Amtrak, and LAV commanders. Weapons gum up bad with CLP. 15W/40 is the current lubricant of use. HQ take note....

get this going/fixed now.....

Boresight daily.... units have been boresighting normally in the

morning and doing an update at night. Some units actually do two BZOs a day but norm has been one.

Clean brass out of catchers and turret rings at every opportunity.

Several turrets jammed during engagements due to brass.

Tank, Amtrak, and LAV crews have taken to using captured AK-47's as

crew protection weapons on tanks and LAVs. Guys were literally shooting enemy with 9mm from turrets in the dust storm.

LAVs/Amtraks need a bustle rack or storage box. With the amount of

ammunition units are carrying they don't have enough room on their vehicles. Some units have designed or had locally purchased storage boxes. Recommend units take specs to a local machine shop and have them built if their able to.

COMMO (communications equipment) for dismounts is a problem. Units

do not have a means for Dismounts to communicate without taking a radio from the track and/or carrying a manpack. This slows operations and is a time consuming process that should not have to occur. A field phone, handheld radio or squad radios would be a great asset.

Remain Vigilant! Be Paranoid! Learn to wear heavy flak jackets in

the turret. Chin defilade is now the norm.

29 StumpsTactics (Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center at 29 Palms)

most resembles the battlefield that we are currently facing.

On the enemy: Smart, Flexible, Utilizing all means at their disposal. They have moved ammo in civilian trucks, held weapons to their own

people's heads, and pretended to be doctors' with asthmatic children.

Pretend to surrender then open fire. Units recommend that you err on the side of precaution. Put all civilians down before they get close to you. SEARCH EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING. Divorce the personnel from their vehicle and be prepared for a car bomb.

Please pass this on to all tank/LAV companies and anyone else who

you think could benefit from these lessons learned. These Marines have been down the road and want follow on forces to be prepared.

End of comments.

We are now into what has been described as "The Three Block War". On one block you could be handing out humanitarian assistance to locals, on another doing security patrols and running a checkpoint, and on the third you could be in full combat operations.

My final note - these Marines had just come out of 7 days of continuous combat ops, gotten a good night's sleep, pulled some maintenance and were rearing to get on with the attack. I did not observe any loss of focus from the constant, continuous strain of combat. Not once was I asked when they would be going home. As one Marine Sgt (sergeant) put it "Baghdad is Saddam's center of gravity and his heart - we are going to cut it out and give it back to the people of Iraq". That's the attitude of your Marines in

Iraq...

Semper Fidelis,

Greg Plush

Colonel USMC

--

Mk4

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, God Bless America, United States of America - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 00:25:17 (ZULU)


Lito, you are welcome on the Tac info.  Let me know what you find out.  I still have a few pounds of Varget left to work through before switching.

Keith

Keith Email this member See this member's profile
North Central, WV, - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 01:50:44 (ZULU)



"Best Intel (intelligence) was from HETs and EPW (Enemy Prisoners of War) debriefs. This was often turned around on the spot and used by friendly units.

"They have moved ammo in civilian trucks, held weapons to their own people's heads, and pretended to be doctors' with asthmatic children.  Pretend to surrender then open fire. Units recommend that you err on the side of caution. Put all civilians down before they get close to you. SEARCH EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING. Divorce the personnel from their vehicle and be prepared for a car bomb.

"Please pass this on to all tank/LAV companies and anyone else who you think could benefit from these lessons learned. These Marines have been down the road and want follow on forces to be prepared."

It was remarkable how quickly our forces adapted to these dirty little tactics.  They pulled this crap and within a couple of hours all our guys knew and had adjusted to it.

All this freaked the Russians solidly.  Iraq was using Russian equipment and doctrine.  Immediately after we took Baghdad, some Russian generals said that we would do the same thing to Russian forces.  They also said that their enemy in Chechnya was less formidable than ours in Iraq and that we would have settled the Chechnian's hash in short order.

And, after this large-scale training and tempering exercise, our forces are far, far more capable than they were before combat operations began.  

Right now, our forces are big and mean and f*g SCARY!

Powell just went to Syria to tell Assad that he expects him to cease and desist in his support for Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.  Powell is playing "good cop" and Rumsfeld is ideally suited to the role of "bad cop."

Let's say you're Assad.  You see the 3rd, 4th, 101st, and tens of thousands of spec ops troops at your back.  You look out your front door and see the most powerful Navy in history, complete with two divisions of Marines who are still looking for payback for Beruit.  Overhead you can expect our incredible Star Wars air force.  All have just bloodied their swords honorably and in a spectacular manner on two enemies, one of which had handed the mighty Soviet Union its ass.  They're led by an ex-fighter pilot CINC who just landed on an aircraft carrier and a former real life "Top Gun" Sec Def.  You know that the Sec Def would dearly love to see your head on a plate.

What do you expect Assad to tell Powell?

"Civilian graphite is the key (Cooper or Liquid Wrench)...according to several tank, Amtrak, and LAV commanders. Weapons gum up bad with CLP. 15W/40 is the current lubricant of use."

Small arms too?  What's the small arms' lube of choice in the desert?

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 02:56:29 (ZULU)


CDC said,

"Small arms too?  What's the small arms' lube of choice in the desert?"

For the 16 family, I would definitely say liquid graphite......

Dries instantly, and does not attract squat......

That or a moly aerosol...same idea.

No petro based lubes at all.IMHO

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 04:44:29 (ZULU)



JR,

    Typical ISP prob's - clean e-mail on the way w/ new info!

CDC,

    Dan, I'm obviously not in Iraq, but I can recommend a small arms lubricant for severe desert use. "Lock-Ease" liquid graphite comes in small (3.5 oz) spray cans and uses a petroleum distillate that evaporates to nothing (no residue, no greasy film) after dispersing the graphite lubricant. The graphite turns to a dry film that can be wiped off if needed. Good for way high desert temps down to well below zero and won't attract that red talcum powder. I've been using it for years - TSW (This Shit Works)! It can be found in most well stocked hardware and ranch supply stores.

    Also, I used to get it at my local NAPA auto parts store under their Balknap brand in little non-aerosol cans of liquid with the neatest little needle spout. The store changed hands and I haven't seen it on their shelves since. I'll stop by on Mon. and check with mgmt.

    All a shooter has to do is clean his weapon after leaving the desert and lube as usual. BTW - If a guy's gonna use motor oil as a weapons lube, don't use 15W40! It'll work if that's all you have, but it's just an oil formulated for diesel applications (Shell Rotella, Chevron Delo, Pennzoil Fleet, etc.). When presented with a choice, at least use a full synthetic like Mobil 1, Castrol Syntec, or equivalent. Without going into boring (to some) details, just remember that the synthetic is not a fossil based product. Therefore no carbon build-up to gum up the works! And your spark plugs will last longer;-)

Mk4,

    I'm surprised that the 'Shilka's' (ZSU-23 variants) weren't more effective, espcially on our slow movers. Very happy to hear that. The NVA sure ripped us a new asshole over Hanoi using those things after the Russians sent "Technicians" over there to teach the pinheads how to shoot! I'm still carrying around a couple of momentos near my liver. I'm real glad that the Evil Empire went broke!

ALAN

EDITED - must have been typing this as you posted yours, bro Shoes:-)

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 05:28:07 (ZULU)


Alan: 15W40 is a multi-weight viscosity specification - it has naught to do with the kind of oil. Oil suitable for diesel use and regular car engine oil are both available with that viscosity spec. CLP is a petroleum distillate with PTFE added, and I suspect would have pretty much the same tendency to accumulate abrasive dust and sand as any other oil, so I'm sure the graphite would work better under desert conditions.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 06:37:03 (ZULU)


Review of - PACT Digital Precision Powder Scale and PACT Digital Precision Powder Dispenser

I got my setup on Friday and since it has been raining decided to take the new toys for a test drive so to speak.  I don't want to turn this into Reloading Country, which might equate to pissing in the Wheaties for some, so if anyone is interested in my initial observations on the set e-mail me off line and I'll send you want I got.  It's about 3 pages which is only 9 - 12 KB.  If the fix that Marius put in place won't work for you just drop a note on the DR and I'll get it to you.

For those who what the condensed version - I LIKIE LOTS! :>

Later,

P.S. - These are the same items that RCBS sells as the Powder Pro Digital Scale and  PowderMaster Dispenser, PACT manufactures them for RCBS in green instead of the PACT grey.

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 06:46:40 (ZULU)


Gents

Having been in Desert Shield/Desert Storm perhaps I can add a bit to the lube thread.

First, sand is not the real culprit, although it can cause problems. The dust is the issue. Like talcum powder and creeps into everything. Frequent cleaning needed.

Either go dry, use a graphite based lube, as mentioned, or another type that would dry leaving a film of some type to act as a lube.

I cleaned nightly and used CLP VERY sparingly.

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 09:03:54 (ZULU)


From http://www.tacticalforums.com/, under Church of The Tactical Truth, USMC Lessons Learned from Iraq

"Enemy Engagements ~ Almost all interviewed stated all firefight engagements conducted with small arms (5.56mm guns) occurred in the twenty to thirty (20-30) meter range. Shots over 100m were rare. The maximum range was less than 300m. Of those interviewed, most sniper shots were taken at distances well under 300m, only one greater than 300m (608m during the day). After talking to the leadership from various sniper platoons and individuals, there was not enough confidence in the optical gear (Simrad or AN/PVS-10) to take a night shot under the given conditions at ranges over 300m. Most Marines agreed they would “push” a max range of 200m only."

Very interesting post, read the whole thing. Nice to read the way stuff is really holding up in the field (assuming the information in the post is accurate).

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
Building an Ark in, NC, - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 10:34:06 (ZULU)


JR,

Thanks for yesterday.  I appreciated the look around Border and especially you taking the time to look at my troublesome pipe.  The thing is soaking in the foam stuff as I type.  I'll report later to you.  Trip back was wet, but still did it in bang on 1.5 hours.  Thanks again.

Jon

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 10:45:14 (ZULU)


Attention!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All Sniper Country Rifles are now compleated.   About 10 will ship on Monday.  Still waiting on funds and or FFLs from a few of you.  

Thanks to everone that ordered. It went smoothly and I think the rifles came out real nice.   Sure there will be plenty of them at ASC #1 and #2.        

Thanks

George

George Gardner, G.A. Precision Email this member See this member's profile
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 11:13:34 (ZULU)


I ran the cork/air rifle booth at my sons' elementary school fair yesterday. I set up styrofoam cups for targets similar to a county fair shooting gallery kinda thing. I bet I showed 50 kids how to shoot a rifle. What a hoot. A most enjoyable morning. There were several in the bunch that were very talented.

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 13:09:50 (ZULU)


LEUPOLD COUNTRY -

I got my .30-06 cam from Leupold yesterday - free of charge with no exchange needed!

Even though Leupold is offering to do a "non-advertised" cam exchange those of you wanting the missing cam should keep on their backs to get it for "free."

After all, they're still advertising it with four, not three, cams!

'lito, I hope you have enough "pull" with them to make them see the error of their ways!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 13:15:54 (ZULU)


I know battle field is quite different and M-16's are a bit on the rough side at times. But on this desert which is a lot like others in that sand blows so thick visability is sometimes 50'(3 times most of the day this last mo.)Vehicles stir it like powder even when the wind is down.  The only problem I've had is the bolt release on a 700 locking up after opening and usually requires removing the action to fix right.  The only way I can operate is with no lube at all. Same remedy for temperature extremes where graphite would be acceptable. I"ve also used many AR's Brownings, Rugs, and Winchesters out here under sand conditions. I have no problem with graphite where lube is a must. Out here semiautomatic shotguns are the worst, filling with weed seeds and sand grit. Again no lube is what I do for what it's worth. The old 1100 Remington being the best of the lot. HK-Benelli is quite good also. Bow backs fail.  The M1a, M1 need a little but don't get it from me due to temp problems. The best in the desert out here are HK, AK-47s and SKS's. As a full auto the UZI and AK's are heads above the rest except for HK large caliber like .308 which works but I don't like much for other reasons. M-60's and M-16s will shoot as long as the sand isn't too bad. Thompson's .45 cal work, no lube as they are blow back fire from open it's a little iffy on the first shot...and tend to clean the oven on the first round. One surprise is the Browning BAR semi auto hunting rifle. The Remington 740's and 60's kinda suck. Oh shut up Bill! We know you never fired that many guns cause your just a civilian. By the way the MP-5 is finicky with dirt. Although it's closed bolt.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 14:09:54 (ZULU)


Hey Moe!!!!! (said in a Curly-esuqe fashion),

Who do I speak to at Leupold about the 30-06 wheel.  I gots a SC rifle coming' reeaalll soon-like and it would be nice to have the right wheel.

Thanks,

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 14:42:28 (ZULU)


I picked up my SCLE rifle three days ago. All I can say is that it is work of art. Fired 23 rounds yesterday afer boresighting to break in the barrel as per Georges instructions. Even though this was only at 50 meters, all 23 rds. went into a single little 3/8" hole during the break in process. I can't wait until I can stretch it out....thanks George for the great stick........Rick

KImbershooter Email this member See this member's profile
Disputanat, Va., USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 15:26:51 (ZULU)


Moe-ski...

There "may" be a better solution coming in the future.

I'll keep you informed.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 16:13:37 (ZULU)



'Lito,

If that solution that may be in the future involves a 175 SMK for the LR M3, I'd be interested in a head's up as well.

re: SCLE,

For those that already gots theirs,  how did George Ship them?  FedEx, USPS etc?  I figger mine's going out tomorrow, and I just want to figure out when my FFL will be getting it.  If it's quick enough, it'll make one heck of a nice Boithday present!!

Thanks,

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 19:40:49 (ZULU)



Lindy,

     I really don't want to start a pie-fight over motor oil classifications, but I also hate to be corrected where correction is not due!

     If you'll take a short trip to your local motor oil distributor, and learn about the use codes found on the containers of all motor oils designed for distribution to the general public for use on licensed motor vehicles you'll find out that most (90-100%) of the oil available in the 15W40 viscosity is labeled " For API Service SF,SG/CD,CF" or something similar. The letter S designates gasoline fueled engines while the letter C designates diesel. The second letter in the classification stands for the highest and most recent API (American Petroleum Institute) testing criteria that this lubricant has met or exceeded.

     Next, examine the motor oils that are commonly recommended (in the owners manual or by the oil manufacturers) for all gasoline engined cars and light trucks (through 1-ton) such as 5W30, 10W30, the old and obsolete 10W40, and 20W50. You will quickly find that most (again 90-100%) of these lubricants are only rated for the S applications and not the C applications, therefore the lable will read something similar to "Exceeds API SERVICE SJ,SH". Use of these oils in diesel engined vehicles (as described) will surely result in denial of warranty coverage on your vehicles engine should lubrication induced failure occur. Note that the diesel designation C is conspicuous in its absence.

     Generally speaking, while the commonly available 15W40 will meet the older S requirements (SJ,SH for example), they do not meet the latest S specs (SI,SL in most cases) and therefore is not acceptable for use in most gasolene powered vehicles produced within the last several years.

     15W40 oil is commonly refered to as "diesel oil" in the industry and has been named and marketed by the oil companies to reflect that fact. Hence Shell Rotella, Chevron Delo, Pennzoil Fleet just to name a few.

     How do I know this? It's been my business from 1980 until my retirement in 1998! References on request:-))) There has been lots of confusion on this subject among the general public, and I did'nt want it to spread to the DR!

Respectfully,

             ALAN

EDITED - I should add that one of the reasons that the diesel designated oils like 15W40 are not recommended for late model gasoline engine use is that they all are formulated with a high amount of viscosity modifiers (polymers) that tend to cause exsessive carbon build-up in the intake tract of these modern emmission controlled engines.

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 20:05:50 (ZULU)



Alan: Not only do I own a vehicle with a Cummins diesel engine, but I retired from an oil company research laboratory. I am conversant with API service codes, which are, as you note, what determine the proper use of a lubricant, NOT the viscosity specification, and which was not mentioned in either your post or the one which you replied to. I run Chevron Delo 400 in a 15W40 grade in my Cummins, but that oil is also available in single-weight grades as well, so it simply isn't accurate to assume from a viscosity spec what a lubricant may be good for, and in any case, API service codes don't apply to weapons.

And, since this is Sniper Country rather than All Bidness Country, there is certainly no significant difference in any motor oil in it's propensity to attract dust and sand when used to lubricate a weapon. If your point was, "Don't use motor oil on a weapon", I heartily agree - especially in the desert. If you feel that I have slandered or libeled your knowledge of oil by my comment, and thus damaged your self-esteem, I apologize.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 20:43:20 (ZULU)


ALAN...

>"... the old and obsolete 10W40, and 20W50."<

What ju mean, jelly bean???  I represent that remark!!  I use 20x50 Castrol in all my rides, and I got almost 400,000 on the Honda Accord before that POS it went belly up (and the engine was still tight, the transmission went "big time catastraphic").

-

'lito (with hurt 20x50 feelings... I'm gonna go drink some 20x50, and make it aw betterer :((

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 22:27:21 (ZULU)



Another M3LR turret question or two. Close examination of the 30-'06 turret reveals that some of the yard marks appear to be between the MOA marks. For example, the "7" appears to be about 19.5 MOA. Does anyone have a more precise listing of the MOA which is supposed to correspond to each of these marks? It's certainly possible to set the turret between clicks, but will it stay there under recoil?

The other question I have arose in a discussion elsewhere of trying to create a load which would precisely track the turret markings in yards. That started me thinking about how difficult that would be, as it would seem as a minimum that you'd have to have a bullet which was aerodynamiclly very similar to the one that turret was modelled on. Does anyone know what that was?

Once you start thinking about this stuff, it's hard to know where to stop, assuming that you wanted to.  :-)

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 22:45:19 (ZULU)


Well with all this talk about the 175 SMK and the '06 cam on the M3LR I have to add my 2 cents worth...if it's worth that much! OK here is what SCLE #3 does with the 175 M3 combo. Load is, as usual, 44 gr. Varget, Lapua brass, GM210M primers and of course the 175 SMK. Now with the SCLE rifle this load runs a 2751 fps AVG for six, 5 shot groups.

That being said the '06 on the M3 tracks DEAD ON to 1,000 yds. as tested and can be verified by the group at BadLands for the last basic course! All I needed to make hits from 400-1000 was, dial the cam, get a good wind call, pull the trigger and CLANG!

And as we say "your shooting may vary" BUT I'm a happy camper!

BTW I'd be intersted in what kind of velocities others are getting with this load and the SCLE.

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 23:46:17 (ZULU)


Sarge,

Hmmmmmmm........

This brings even more ?'s to the fore....

2751, and tracks dead ON.

Well, the magic # I have been told is 2685....

You are shooting a full 66fps faster, and you are dead on.

This is a real ball buster.

So, bottom line......

Which is it.......

I understand the variables, but 60fps is a lot of difference.......

What kind of groups you get with it at different ranges.??

Hit me off line if you want..so we don't tie up SC with LC.....LOL

Two Shoes

Glockamolie@aol.com

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 00:14:27 (ZULU)


Awright Guys!

'lito, you chug that 20W50 and yore gonna be regular, to say the least.

I got a Cummins, too (my second). Love 'em.

15W40 Rotella is all I run in it.

Durango 5.9 liter gets 10W40, as recommended, but that makes me twitch, being used to 20W50 in all my cycles back when I had more balls than sense. Seems thin, but I ain't no petrochemical engineer.

The "S" and "C" API classes designate spark vs. compression ignition, respectively (i.e., gas vs. diesel).....we all know that any engine that will run on used cooking oil is superior, though.

Have it on good authority that Mobil 1 is the lube of choice for the Barrett M82.......don't know about desert conditions, though. Only stoppage I've ever seen on an 82 was FTF due to excessive OAL causing rounds to hang in the mag. Rest of the rifle just perks along.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 00:32:45 (ZULU)



Well, using 45.0 grains of Varget, F210M primers, and the 175 SMK, I don't get velocities anywhere near 2750. I'm not using Lapua brass, though, yet - I have 500 of those in .308 on order.

One ballistic calculator I used with a BC of .496 for the 175 SMK, calculates a difference of 21 inches at a 1000 yards between those two muzzle velocities. According to that calculator, 2685 will get you to 1000 on a standard day with a drop of 387.14 inches, or 37 MOA, which matches the 30-'06 turret. A velocity of 2751 would get you there in 366 inches, or 35 MOA, which does not track the turret. Twenty-one inches is significant.

And, for those of us who have to reload to practice our skills, reloading is certainly a relevant topic. Being able to reproduce a specific sniper load like M118LR is especially so.

Bruce, the oil traditionally used by samurai to keep their swords from rusting was mineral oil with a bit of clove oil. The clove oil was allegedly to scent the mineral oil so Mrs. Samurai did not cook with it, giving Mr. Samurai the trots. HA! Iaido Country. Take that!

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 00:49:27 (ZULU)


MOTOR OIL COUNTRY!!:-)  

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 01:26:46 (ZULU)



John Bechtell in Gettysburg and East Coasters in PA/Jersey/upper Maryland, here's the contact for New Holland, Pennsylvania (May 600 yard Prone Match).  I would imagine they'll let you shoot as F-class off a bipod or bag, or you can sling up a borrowed rifle:

New Holland, PA

5/18 May 2003 - 600 yd prone match (60 shots) sign up 8-8:45 firing starts at 9. $25 entry, $15 juniors.

Contact is Scott Roberts, (610) 273-9393, robertsfamily@chesco.net

============

Man, I am a font of useless trivial information.

The 175 Match King was to replace the GI 173-grain bullet for the M118.  The M118 bullet was specified at 175.5 grains per type classification Standard-MSR 07798001 (data in TM 43-0001-27, Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammunition FSC 1305, June 81).   pdf ADDRESS: http://perfectunion.com/pdf/TM43-0001-27.pdf

The Navy NAVSEA OP 4335, Small Arms and Special Warfare Ammunition also lists M118's bullet at 175.5.

30-06 M72 Match listed a 173-grain bullet (which I imagine was closer to 175 as well) at 2640 fps.

I bought "1967 National Match Rifles, U.S. Cal. 7.62mm M14 and U.S. Cal. .30, M1 and National Match Ammunition", U.S. Army Materiel Command, for $5 at a gun show in Arizona a couple of years ago.  In it it says this about the (same) bullet for M72 and M118 Match:

"The finished bullet has a length ranging from 1.312 - .040 inches and a diameter of .3081 to .3088 inch and a maximum point diameter of .060 inch.  The profile has a radius of 2.1 inches and a boat-tail length .230 - .005 inch.  The bullets are visually inspected prior to assembly into cratridges.  Bullets are visually inspected through a weighing machine which has three stations.  Bullets having a weight between 172.6 and 174.5 grains are taken off at station 2.  Bullets lighter than 172.6 grains are taken off at station 1 and they are scrapped.  Bullets heavier than 174.5 grains are collected at station 3 and they are given separate control numbers.  The bullets are then inspected visually.  The bullets rotate on a chain conveyor under which is a mirror to permit inspecting all surface area of the bullet."

"Testing.

During production of the match cartridges the bullet and cartridge are subjected to daily quality control accuracy tests.  this firing is conducted on a 600-yard outdoor range.  Firing is done with an accuracy test rifle consisting of an M1919A4-machinegun-type barrel and an M1903 rifle action.  The barrel is secured in a slide which operates a V-block attached to a Frankford Arsenal machine rest.  The barrel length for the rifle firing the M72 round is 24 inches and that for the rifle firing the M118 round is 22 inches.  The accuracy requirements for both cartridges is similar.  The acceptance test requirement is a mean radius of 3.5 inches for nine 10-shot groups from each of three test rifles at a range of 600 yards.  The mean radius represents the average distance of each shot in the group from the group center.

The velocity is calculated at a distance of 78 feet from the muzzle by measuring the time required for the bullet to pass over a known distance.  Photoelectric screens are used to detect the passage of the bullet and signals are fed ino a chronograph to start and stop the counting mechanism.  The photoelectric screens are positioned at distances of 28 feet and 128 feet from the rifle muzzle to give a base distance of 100 feet.  The velocity is then calculated from the formula v=100/t.

National Match Ammunition Ballistic Requirements.

Cal .30 Velocity 2640 fps +/- 30.

7.62mm M118 Velocity 2550 +/- 30 fps.

Pressure - Not to exceed 50,000 lbs./square inch

Accuracy - 3.50 inch Mean Radius Maximum Average.

"DCM Price List.  National Match Weapon will be shipped from an Army depot by express, collect (Except when weapon is purchased when attending the national Matches).

M1 Rifles.

The National Match M1 Rifles are rebuilt to meet the critical acceptance standards applicable to National Match rifles.  Each rebuilt Match Rifle is rebarrelled, restocked, and glass bedded.

Rifle, U.S., Cal. .30, M1, National Match, NSN 1005-726-6476, $148.00 each, plus $4.50 packing and handling charges.

Rifle, U.S., Cal. .30, M1 Standard Issue, NSN 1005-674-1425, $94.30 each, plus $4.50 packing and handling charges.

Equipment included with each rifle - 1 sling, web.  Limit of one (1) rifle per NRA adult member until current allocation is exhausted."

==================

Interesting that with everybody soon to be receiving primo-grade Gardner Snipers in 7.62, shooting equivalent Varget 175s and  similar scopes, trading recipes and training tips will make sense to an even bigger crowd of Hawgs as lessons are closer to a common base-line (shoulda thought to throw in Bruce's Mil-Dot Master).

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 01:30:02 (ZULU)


Lindy...

>"but will it stay there under recoil?"<

Yes!!  I do it all the time, and they never move.

-

I had dinner with "Andy's Dad (Kevin) tonight... he, I and Frank G are skeemin on ASC#2, and I can tatse it.

Takin' the stick out tomorrow for it's first trials...

-

'lito

(very regular, due to ingestion of copious amounts of 20x50 Castrol and Dark Rum, spiced with Lime jooce)

;)))

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 02:34:16 (ZULU)


Gooch,

It's gun oil country, too!

Lindy,

I posted about two years ago that I had acquired a cherry 1924 vintage Parker Trojan that had been maintained by the original owner according to Parker Bro's. recommendations, which was for the use of "3-in-1 oil" (nothing but sewing-machine oil)......bores are mirror-bright, bluing is 99%+, and even the stock looks new, save a few handling dings. Case color is worn, so maybe he should have used Mobil One on that!

Maybe the petrochemical industry has not advanced as much as we like to think it has, Huh?

Best, Y'all!

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 03:06:46 (ZULU)


Sinister;

  Good M1 info.

Rich;

  Your Garand sounds like mine. Mine was build by SA in '44 and rebuilt in '51. It shoots really well with 48gr H4895 and 155gr Nosler match bullets.

  I also have a M1903 Mark I, M1917, and M1 carbine, CMP guns of course. Then there is my K98k Mauser and Mosin-Nagant 1944 carbine. Now I'm looking for a Brit(Commonwealth) rifle, Italian rifle, and Jap rifle, WW2 years.

Mr. Bechtell;

  I just sent a resume to Bechtel and since it isn't a very common name, I was wondering. Thanks anyway.

GARAND  COUNTRY

 

                     LATER  Y'ALL  

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 03:26:59 (ZULU)



Here's some more latest info on the Leupold LRM3 BDC dial issue flying around.  I ordered a Gen 2 LRM3 to go on my SCLE rifle #43 (which should arrive at my FFL on Monday-Yea!) from the good folks at Premiere Reticle.  Like everyone else on this website, mine came with 3 BDC dials- labels say ".223 Rem 55 gr", "308 Win 168 gr" and "300 Win Mag 190 gr".  I immediately called Leupold customer service and spoke to a rep and explained that I would be shooting a 175 MK at about 2600 fps.  She said  that the LRM3 catalog still said it was supposed to include 4 dials.  She also said that Leupold made an LRM3 BDC dial for the 308 Win, 175 Match King at 2600 fps and kindly shipped me one free of charge.  Now my M3 has the BDC dial on it labeled "308 Win 175 gr" while it waits for my SCLE rifle to arrive.  I also sent back my 223 dial to exchange for a 30-06 dial.  It seems that everyone who calls Leupold customer service gets a different answer.  Is it because they hadn't thought through how they would handle customer calls like ours?

Ted Email this member See this member's profile
San Diego, CA, - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 04:37:28 (ZULU)



Jody,

You want Commomwealth riffles, then check here....

www.bdlltd.com

He's got tons of realllly nice Enfields from all over.

Later,

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 05:00:42 (ZULU)


Ted,

Don't use the 175 dial, it won't work @ the posted speed.( 2685).

Use the '06 dial.......

The 175, is sposed to fly at 2600........no bueno.

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 05:09:22 (ZULU)


Sinister......

How recent is this info???.

Are these prices still current/applicable

"DCM Price List.  National Match Weapon will be shipped from an Army depot by express, collect (Except when weapon is purchased when attending the national Matches).

M1 Rifles.

The National Match M1 Rifles are rebuilt to meet the critical acceptance standards applicable to National Match rifles.  Each rebuilt Match Rifle is rebarrelled, restocked, and glass bedded.

Rifle, U.S., Cal. .30, M1, National Match, NSN 1005-726-6476, $148.00 each, plus $4.50 packing and handling charges.

Rifle, U.S., Cal. .30, M1 Standard Issue, NSN 1005-674-1425, $94.30 each, plus $4.50 packing and handling charges.

Equipment included with each rifle - 1 sling, web.  Limit of one (1) rifle per NRA adult member until current allocation is exhausted."

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 05:14:49 (ZULU)



Velocity Differences from the same load data:

I just had a thought (nobody laugh I'm allowed at least one a year), can the velocity differences that seem to be occuring be related to different altitudes (BP) at the varing locations?

Rich S.,

I believe that all the SCLE's went UPS mine did.  Saturday my wait time is finally up and I get to take full time custody.  Anybody care to guess where I'll be Saturday afternoon?

Why is it new toys always mean more projects?  Buy digital scale, sort cases, need more loading blocks so why not make them.  250 holes drilled and calling it a night, only 750 more to go :(  but the blocks sure look good :)

Night Guys,

Two Shoes -

That has to be old info because the current price is $500 for a M1 GARAND SERVICE GRADE.

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 05:17:05 (ZULU)


WHen did the price drop on DCM M1's?  Werent they over 300.00 back in the mid 90's?

Out hyar.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 05:24:08 (ZULU)



'lito,

      I placed a comma between old and obsolete 10W40, and 20W50. 10W40 motor oil remains old and obsolete, while 20W50 oil is not old and obsolete - it's just intended for the old and obsolete drivers of old and obsolete vehicles;-))) with or without dark rum.

Lindy,    

      I don't know what this has to do with self esteem. My original post was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek comment on a post about the use of 15W40 motor oil as an arms lubricant in the desert. Go back and read it Lindy. How many of you use weapons equipped with spark plugs? And just keep using that 10W40 in your 5.9 Durango instead of following the listings in the owners manual, unless the manual that came with my 5.9 Dakota R/T is somehow incorrect. But you know it all.

Guys,

     Why is it that after about a week of excelent threads on the DR some people must try their best to start a pie fight and then try to ratchet it up to a full-blown pissing contest? If any of you can't appreciate or understand my attempts at humor just scroll by my posts instead of engaging in your knee-jerk reflexes to jump all over my shit.

     Perhaps if those who deem themselves in a position to dictate what are and are not appropriate topics for the DR would just have the guts to come out and post a list of them, I would know exactly who they are and where they stand. Then maybe they could get together and form their own f****n website and get off my case.

Much later,

            ALAN  

ALAN Email this member See this member's profile
Palisade, CO, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 06:29:59 (ZULU)


Lindy:

RE the FAA and Regs....

Yea I bet we could find more than a few "unreasonable" regs, esp over beers.  Kinda like the one that covers dropping things from aircraft...    

Like bowling balls.

They make pretty neat holes in the ice from 3000' AGL.

Hard to see unless you paint them DayGlo Orange though.

In case anyone from the FSDO is reading this... I'm talking "theoretically" mind you...  No one would ever really do this, much less even consider it ya know.

- - - -

To those who answered my questions regarding new barrel tech and stellite etc..  

Thanks.  I don't have alot of contact with "informed sources" around here.  Get most of my good info from you guys.  Sorta like an online "how to" thats always being written.

- - - -

Richard from New Zealand:  

I posted some Density Alt Calcs already. Search for this date, "Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 15:43:21 (ZULU)"

That should find it.

- - - -

Dont know if anyone would find this useful (besides pilots) but heres an interesting deal.

Ever look up and wondered what the cloud bases are?

Just get your Temp and Dew Point in degrees F and take the difference and divide by 4.   That equals the approx base in thousands of feet.

84 degrees temp, 76 degrees Dew Point, = 2000 feet AGL cloud bases.

This is "rough" but works.  Will vary some on extreme days or with extreme weather sometimes.

YMMV...

Later all...

~Dakota

DakotaAviator Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 06:40:17 (ZULU)


Chris, Sinister or any other High Power/F-Class Shooters.

   Just wondering how popular is the 7mm Rem Mag at the 1000 yard matches. Are they comparable to the 6.5 X 284 in the wind?

Wes

   Didn't you mention Boots Obermeyer was shooting one as a test this year? How is it doing?

   Anyone else that is shooting or are shooting against a 7MM Mag feel free to reply here or shoot me an E-mail.

Regaurds.

Bill

Bill Byford Email this member See this member's profile
South , IL, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 07:09:53 (ZULU)


Sinisters last post was based on a book from 1965.

I got no reply to my query to adi,who make varget,about why recent batches seem slower,either someone is not readin their mail or they dont give a shit.

News says the mullahs in Astan are mouthin off about continuin the holy war agin the U.S and allies.To f*ckin dumb to live.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 07:48:38 (ZULU)


Cams... AGAIN!!

Ted.  There is a new cam that is marked 175 and appears to be slipping out... and it appears that you have one.

It is NOT for 2600fps, it is for 2685fps, and is the yards equivalent to the military "308M" cam (which is in meters).

When it comes to these cams, the ideal velocity of the 175SMK's is 2685, not 2600.

Instead of making things better, I fear that they have made things worser.

Customer service is in the dark on these things, and they just guess at them.

-

New 1000 yd caliber???   Andy's Dad and I were discussing his "new" (already shot out) 6.5x284, and he said that there was talk of a new calibre... the 284x284!

That plain ol' .284 that has been around for some 40 years is a RIGHTIOUS 1000 cartridge when built up in a long action, with a long throat :))  And now great brass is available!

-

'lito... (Up at 3 AM with a Castrol 20x50 hangover.  4 Advil, and back to bed :((

-

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 08:40:47 (ZULU)


Lito San say's....

"

Cams... AGAIN!!

Ted.  There is a new cam that is marked 175 and appears to be slipping out... and it appears that you have one.

It is NOT for 2600fps, it is for 2685fps, and is the yards equivalent to the military "308M" cam (which is in meters).

When it comes to these cams, the ideal velocity of the 175SMK's is 2685, not 2600.

Lito,

this info I posted on the 175 cam/dial,@ 2600, whatever.......came directly from Leupold.......( via a phone call to a Tech)(not Garth).

Sooooooo.........one more example, of the mfgr, not knowing what the he** they are doing as a collective.

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 12:50:09 (ZULU)


Sinister,

Thanks for the New Holland Info.

JohnB

John Bechtell Email this member See this member's profile
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 12:55:09 (ZULU)


Billy Byford; you rebel rouser! If anybody ever checks the bal. on 7mm we will be off to "who's ya daddy?" country again. During the sillouete rifle days. (dist 500 meters max) the 7mm-08 which is almost the same as a 284-284 ate .308's for lunch. Everyone complains there aren't enough bullets in the right 7mm range (hunting mainly) but then most of us shoot 168 and 175's in .308's. The 7mm-284 would be just a little hotter than a 7mm-08 and would make 1k easy without sound barrier problems. Recoil is a fringe deduction for the 7mm-08.

I shot one for 5 years hunting coyotes. A little hard on the hides but not bad if you shot em right.

I should have discovered this before but for you GAP Rock Fans and .308 I use mine for everything catagory. I've been using 110 grain V-max's. for coyotes and PD use. The impact point is 3.6" (1 Mil dot). Higher at 100yds. But that's easy to correct on a target turret scope. Running about 3000 something with 48-49 Varget and testing in high winds resulted in as many dead PD's at range as a 26" 22-250. The .308 was 20" barrel and burns more powder by about 6 or 8 grains but it's handy and allows you to shoot in contorted positions without fearing recoil bumping you in the nose. Max test range was 500 yds.

Carry factor 2lbs lighter than 26" 22-250. Muzzle blast slightly higher than 22-250. Hide damage factor... they ain't worth much anyway. P.D.  Altitude record about 10'X 15'. Largest part recovered about 1.5X3".  

Bill Byford Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 14:27:00 (ZULU)


Alan,

My sincere apologies if my post offended you. Just an attempt at humor. No pie fight intended.

I did make a typo, 10W30 is correct, and what I use. But it was ME, not Lindy, that posted that.

Trying to get some chuckles and appear to have poured gas on a fire. But, if it was the first time I'd screwed up, I'd worry about it.

Info on Mobil 1 use on M82's is accurate, though......

'lito, I'm gonna try one of your 20W50 and Dark Rums, then go back to keeping my mouth shut.

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 14:58:25 (ZULU)


"Trying to get some chuckles and appear to have poured gas on a fire."

About 9/10ths of the fights that happen here are exactly that.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 15:53:29 (ZULU)


Sinister,

Excellent post on the M118 bullet. One bit of trivia to add... In the mid 1980's there was an article in the American Rifle about M118 and bullet weights. Seems the so-called "good" lots had bullets averaging on the low side of the spec while the "bad" lots had bullets on the high side. The bottom line from the article was that the heavy bullets were too much for the 1:12 barrels of the NM M14s. I believe the article ran in 1986 or 87.

Marc

Marc Palmer Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 16:04:58 (ZULU)


M118 ahhh yes.  You know there is still a lot of that stuff floating around out there in Air Force and National Guard bunkers.  I'm talking about M118 match not special ball.  I was in Little Rock a few weeks ago talking to some guys running a course for the AF and they were using lot 012 which I seem to remember as a white box lot.  ANyone know for sure?

Anyway we were running a ARNG course in Fort Chaffee a few years ago and we ran into a lot of M118 that was originally white box (match) but had been redesignated as SB and been repackaged (Brown stickers put over the white box) and recrated to look like normal SB.  We were very pleased when we popped those crates open and found them little white boxes with the eagle under the tape.

Ya'll stay cool.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 16:16:42 (ZULU)


Dakota, speaking of bowling balls, they are lethal against targets other than ice.  I know of one Naval Aviation acquantance of mine that uses(d) them in an anti-shipping application.  Let me explain:

Back in '78-'79, I was on my first deployment to Misawa, Japan in VP-9, based out of Moffat Field, Sunnyvale, CA.  I was a brand new Second Mechanic on P-3 Orion patrol planes.  The Engineer on my crew was a guy by the name of Bob A. (last names are unimportant here, and I'm not sure if he can find me, but better safe than sorry!) We were going off-base to Subic City, me for the first time.  We had to wait in line to get out, as we all had to be checked to be sure we weren't carrying any contraband or black market stuff. Like, you can't get ANYTHING you want out in town....yeah.  Anyway, there's these lane dividers like Sea World, or Taco Bell, where you zig-zag back and forth until you get up to the PC's doing the inspections.  I kept wondering what Bob was doing with a bowling ball bag, but he wouldn't say.  The PC joe doing the inspection was as curious as I was, but all Bob would tell him was that he was going bowling.  Now, a lot of things are on the banned list to take out into town, but bowling balls arent one of them, so they let us through.  Just outside the gate is a bridge over what we affectionately called "Shit River".  Phillipines....you figure it out.  Well, at that time there was no fence along the bridge rail like there is now.  Bear with me, gentle readers, and you will see why they were installed.....Well, Bab stops in the middle to point out to me a quaint local custom known as the "Shit River Queens".  Seems some of the local hotties would get dressed up in their bridal best and park in their bonca boats alongside the bridge, singing and calling for money.  Any donations thrown would be retrieved by little boys swimming alongside the boat, all salvaged change split between them and the "Queens". (knowing what was in that river, those boys hadda have a godawful mortality rate.  I had to get in that river once, but that's another story) Well, Bob looks around until he spots a particular boat and crew, walks over to that part of the bridge and unzips the bag.  As he pulls out the bowling ball, he starts yelling something in Tagalog, and the retrieval crew starts backstroking the hell outta there like the PI Olympic swim team.  Queenie starts hollering back, Bob's getting this crazy look on his face and I'm looking for a way to slide outta there.  Anyway, Bob holds this bowling ball out over the railing, takes a reading on the Mk I Mod.0 eyeball, and lets fly.  I'm not sure what the velocity of a 15-lb bowling ball is from a 20 foot bridge, but I can tell you it is sufficient to hull a bonca boat.  So, now, Queenie's staring at the foul, slimy, lumpy water pouring into the boat, Bob's laughing like hell, and a crowd's starting to form.  Her Highness starts shedding that wedding dress faster'n I've ever seen a human female get undressed (at least, up until that time), and the salvage crew heads back to the boat to fight over the money box.  Bob calmly walked away to a watering hole down the street.  On being pressed as to why he did what he did, all he would tell me was something about payback being a bitch.  To this day, I don't know the rationale behind it, but I can tell you that non-explosive, round plastic shot can be an effective tool, depending on the shipping being targeted.  

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 16:25:00 (ZULU)


....THANKS guys for the head's up on the 3006 BDC dial.....just called Leupold and have one coming !!!  From the email received from George, old SC#17 is on the way....yeeeeeeehaaaaaaa

ASC#2 in 12 days !!!!!  See you there...

JRMoore

JRMoore Email this member See this member's profile
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 16:33:39 (ZULU)



Gooch,

I think I've got about 20 boxes of that lot # in a ammo can. All still sealed. Should I open the brown boxes and check the headstamp? I got 'em all from the same person at the same time.

I can't get the oil to mix with the rum, wtf?

I'll double check but I think I'm gettin around 2700 or better with 44.5 of Varget with pressure signs at 45.1 grs. in the SCLE #15.

Lapua brass and 210M as usual. The model 70 Gardener/Rock stick shoots 45.1 grs. of Varget at 2750 all day.

Indiana jes started a new lottery game called Aces High, shouldn't I get a commission or royalties???

Edit to add- Leupold Product Serv. says they'll ship me the 30-06 bdc when they receive the 223 bdc. As per Tim Lesser in product service(supervisor).

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 16:54:10 (ZULU)


Gooch, I was getting 1978 lots of M118 Match at late as '01.  Felt like Indiana Jones cracking open that ammo can.  This was CLNC.

I'm currently using modest quantities of Mobil synthetic 80-90W gear lube on the Barrets.  I wanted higher viscosity because the light weight stuff was running all over the place and making a mess.  CMC would probably shit themselves if they read this.  I believe CLP is recommended, but everyone ignores that nonsense.

284Win has been widely used as LR caliber by several of the better shots I know.  Among them John H, who's a noted AR smith often mentioned on this site.  Thought long and hard about it before deciding to go 280AI.  

7-08mm.  My father is using this for his 1000yd rifle and it works well enough.  162A-maxes shoot to 1000yds using less than 30MOA of elevation from 100yd zero and lots less wind.  Shoots into the high 190's(score wise) at 1K.

Boots' son, Eric was shooting a 7mm Rem at 1K for a while, he had it rebarreled in 30-338 after he shot the barrel out.  Why, don't know.  Asked him about it, he claimed he had run into a bad batch of bullets that had issues with the high velocities&pressures causing the bullets to occasionally fail.

On this note, at some point in the future are we going to run into issues with lead core bullets failing under the increased heat and rotational loading from high velocities?  If a really slippery bullet is run at high rotations, will aero heating, combined with the heat of powder/friction in-barrel combine to cause enough of a loss in strength of the lead core & jacket to cause the thing to come apart under the rotational load?  I recall an article in Precision Shooter about this concept.  I would guess that 50calibers don't have this problem due to monobloc bullets, as well as the increased heat sink offered by the large core in cup and core designs.  S/F...Ken M              

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 16:58:09 (ZULU)


Re:  Shit river bowling.

That sucks man.  Them folks were just trying to make a living.  I stood many shore patrols and spent a few liberty hours in Olongapo and most them people were pretty cool.  The ugly American image has gotten us into more trouble around the world, servicemen dropping bowling balls on kids really helped.  Your friend was lucky the locals didnt slot his ass.  

A buddy of mine (A Texan by the way) was walking across shit river bridge one day and a little kid snagged his wallet and jumped in the river. The PC (Phillipino Constabulary) on the bridge shot the kid, threw another one in to fetch his wallet and sent my buddy on his way.  Blew his mind but that was the thought process during the Marcos years.

Oh well....young, dumb and full of come.

Out here

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 17:02:31 (ZULU)


B. Sain,

You have mail, w/attachment in cajun.

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 17:53:06 (ZULU)



After WW II, the Mighty Mo passed through the Panama Canal.  The Panamanians cheered the Americans and tossed fruit on the Mo's deck.  The squids picked up the fruit and threw it at the Panamanians.  

Panamanians are said to resent Americans.  If that incident was typical, who could blame them?

It sounds like we're doing much better in Iraq, but who knows?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/629xnqei.asp

Acehigh:  "I can't get the oil to mix with the rum, wtf?"

Use a good detergent.  "Simple Green" should do fine.  Look in the "Cleaning Products/Party Mixers" section of Sam's Club.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 18:23:28 (ZULU)


CDC,

I use simple green to clean all my rifles cause it's biodigestable. I mean Hoppes and Sweets are so damnaging. I'll try it after dinner w/ an olive or two. :))

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 19:25:07 (ZULU)


>>>Acehigh:  "I can't get the oil to mix with the rum, wtf?"

Use a good detergent.  "Simple Green" should do fine.  Look in the "Cleaning Products/Party Mixers" section of Sam's Club.

CDC'<<<

"Simple Green" will alter the pleasant, 'golden' glow of the dark rum...  If they won't mix, ADD MORE RUM!!!!!!

Larry

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 20:03:08 (ZULU)


YES! YES! YES!

Ken has fixed all our mailing problems, as some of you may have found out with overflowing mailboxes like mine.  BUT I DON'T MIND!!

May all Ken's shots go into one caliber-sized hole - FROM 1,000 YARDS!!

So, those who sent registration request - I've got about 90 waiting to be done, and I've got studies waiting...

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 20:31:58 (ZULU)


Reference using Simple Green to clean rifles.  I remember reading that the Air Force no longer authorizes Simple Green for use on aircraft.

IIRC, Simple Green was thought to be reacting chemically with aluminum (or the anodized surface, can't remember).

If anyones interested I'll try to find a link to the story.  Probably doesn't matter unless your stick has aluminum pieces/parts.

SCLE rifle shipping today and should arrive while I'm TAD (only a short training trip, I should be shooting Sunday).  I moved the trip up a week so my rifle would get here sooner (works every time).

Steve in Tampa Email this member See this member's profile
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 21:34:45 (ZULU)


Hey all. I see some of you guys have the new Leupold BDC turrets for your LR M3's. Can any of you tell me at which MOA markings the yardage marks are for Federal GM 168gr. or 175gr. ? I'd like to see how well they match my current come-ups, before I decide to order the turrets.

Luke

Luke Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 21:45:54 (ZULU)



For those of you Desert Rat Patrol types or others going to play in the Sand Box per Uncle Sams request might find the following product of interest.

www.russack.com

They are a distributor of the original VietNam era Dri-Slide lube.

Hope this helps keep your weapons workin.

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin Email this member See this member's profile
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Monday, May 5, 2003, at 22:19:34 (ZULU)



Charles Hunt,

I remember Shit River very well. I was stationed at Subic Bay from 86-88' with "A" co. Marine Barracks and stood guard at the main gate as well as Corporal of the Guard. Lots of intereting sites to see there but the real fun was out in town. ;) We used to try to keep everyone moving across the bridge with no loitering so we wouldn't have too many problems. If you want to see some pics of it now as well as some older ones go to www.subicbaymarines.com and also www.mangossubic.com  Most of the people there are very nice but like anywhere that lives off of tourists/military there are the parasites.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 22:23:54 (ZULU)



KenM,

""On this note, at some point in the future are we going to run into issues with lead core bullets failing under the increased heat and rotational loading from high velocities?""

I was thinking about this during the state match, when MANY great shooters were loosing bullets.  I wonder if maybe some sort of bonding may need to be used if we are to further push the envelope.

The 284WIN/7WSM.  A shooter I know and respect is testing a 7WSM.  He's gone through 4 barrels, from 8 to 9.5 twist, Win and Norma brass, different bullets etc, and can't get it to shoot right.  Mr. Ross, of Gilkes-Ross rifles, was shooting a strait 284win and was having trouble.  I'm still looking to try one, but every 7mm shooter I know complains about bullet consistency.  Something to think about.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 5, 2003, at 22:37:48 (ZULU)


>>>>Hey Moe!!!!! (said in a Curly-esuqe fashion),....Who do I speak to at Leupold about the 30-06 wheel.  (Rich)<<<<

Rich

Email Tim Lesser at tlesser@leupold.com

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 00:27:49 (ZULU)


Dos Zapatos,

Thanks for the tip on the re-tapping of the the Mk4 BDC 30-06 CAM. Re-drilled it and tapped for a larger size. Now maybe it'll hold more betterer ;))) I wuz gonna send it back to Leupold and takes my chances. I got a betterer mouse trap now ;)))

--

Mk4

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, God Bless America, United States of America - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 01:02:44 (ZULU)



Simple Green Story

This all started out because I was going to build a 350 Chevy to drop into my '73 LandCruiser.  I knew I was going to be doing a lot of parts cleaning so I invested in a full size parts cleaning tank.  Painted sheet metal, self contained fluid pump the works.  Once I had the tank setup I started to search for 10 gallons of parts cleaning fluid.  To make a long story short folks in my area had stopped carrying the stuff because of hazardous materials regulations.  So I continued to search for a cleaning fluid.

Well, I had heard some good things about Simple Green and that it was even used in packing houses to clean the blood off of equipment and that it was bio-degradeable so disposal was not an issue.  It also happened that Price Club was also carrying it at the time in 5 gallon containers so I decided to give it a try and picked up two containers.

Now being conscientious and knowing that I was going to be cleaning some really grungy parts I wanted to make sure that the fluid was filtered before going through the pump.  The factory part only had holes drilled in the enclosure to act as a filter and that wasn't good enough in my book.  Now I wasn't going to get crazy and add a remote filter like you might have on your car or truck I just wanted a little finer screening to keep the large chunks out of the pump.  I decided that a Scotchbrite pad sould be sufficient to keep out the big pieces so I just had to figure out how to attach it to the front of the pump enclosure.  I has some aluminum identification plates laying around that were big enough so I did a little bending and cut out the center and pop-rivited it over the opening.  It was perfect, the pad simply slid in and if it got clogged I could remove it to rinse it, life was good.

So the work began, I dumped in the 10 gallons of Simple Green into the tank, turned on the switch and the cleaning commenced.  I started with the sheetmetal parts first because they are easily replace and relatively inexpensive if something went wrong with this cleaner.  The valve covers were being a little stubborn so I let them soak over-night.  The next day I opened the tank and to my surprise when I pulled out the valve covers not only were they clean but they were also stripped down to bare metal.  Life was great, I just hosed off the parts and dried them and they were ready to be repainted to as-new condition with no real work on my part.  Not to mention the whole garage was now smelling like licorice instead of the usual oil, acetone and other more common odors.

As things progressed with my engine build project I used the parts tank many more times.  Then one day I noticed that the filter wasn't in place.  When I looked closer neither was the frame that used to hold it.  I found the Scotchbrite pad in the bottom of the tank but the frame was nowhere to be found, it had been desolved by the Simple

Green.  Now the project ended a short time later and because I used the tank every now and then I simply left the cleaner in the tank.  One day I notice that there is a puddle on the floor in the garage around the tank and it was Simple Green.  The damn stuff had eaten through the paint and sheet metal of the tank!  My parts cleaner tank was history.

Read the label on the bottles!  I'm doing this from memory but if I remember straingt there are warnings about leaving in on painted surfaces, that it will damamge paint, and I believe that it is citric acid based which is why it is bio-degradable.  IT WILL EAT ALUMINUM, IT WILL EAT STEAL, IT WILL STRIP PAINT, if the parts are exposed to it for extended periods of time.  Hell, I was using it to degrease the engines in my cars.  The secret is you have to make sure and rinse every bit of it off or to where it is so diluted that it won't harm whatever you are using it on.  I still use it, I just have more respect for it now then I did before.

When it comes to my guns I think I'll just stick to the more conventional cleaners like GM Top Engine Cleaner :)

Later,

P.S. - You guys are starting to worry me with all this high velocity, bullets coming apart stuff.  I don't know what your problem is but I've been pushing Sierra 52 and 55 gr bullets out of my .22-250 at 3950+ fps and the only coming apart I've had is on impact (imagine red mist).

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 01:02:46 (ZULU)


On Simple Green - The problem is that it is thought ot possibly, maybe cause hydrogen embrittlement - BAAAADDDD JUJU!

CDC,

If you still want it, I'll try to lay my hands on the Varget crono data tonight and get it posted.... still working on getting stuff cleaned and unpacked from theis weekend.

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 01:18:32 (ZULU)


M1;

  A Springfield Service Grade is close to $500. The Danish M1 Rack Grade Springfields are under $400. The only thing they dropped the price on is M1 carbines. They are now $350, but are sold out.

  You can buy a M1 Garand used at Camp Perry for $400 if you are at the Nationals. Also, there are no NM M1s for sale. If one is available, it's sold as a collector's item.

  The DCM is now the CMP. In case anybody is wondering.

Rich;

 Thanks for the tip.

Simple Green;

 I used some to clean some service pumps at the water treatment plant. It cleaned off all of the lime dust build up, oil, and dirt. It also took the paint with it. It wasn't fun telling the boss I needed to get some paint. "Hell! That paint's been on there for 30 years and you go and take it off!"

LATER  Y'ALL

 

 

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 01:37:42 (ZULU)


Byron, varmint bullets bleed velocity like mad, and ToF's are not that long anyways.  We're talking about 0.500 + BC bullets at over 3000 fps starting velocity out to 1K plus, for ToF's in the 1.25-2.0 second range.  Plus, chances are you're launching those varmint bullets from slow twist barrels, for less rotational load.  Run them through a 1:7 twist and some WILL come apart.  I've even had 50gn V-maxes frag from my 1:7 twist 26" barreled space gun on occasion.  It was fricking embarrassing to be missing 150yd P-dogs until I noticed splashes shooting over a retention pond.  The little bulb went on, the hamster wheel started spinning and this was the conclusion I came to.  S/F....Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 02:10:54 (ZULU)


I was wondering what type of steel do you use to make steel targets?  Also, what is the thickness of the steel along with the Rc?

I will be using a 300WM and 308 on the targets........!

Thanks for your time,

BearMan

BearMan Email this member See this member's profile
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 02:17:20 (ZULU)


Gents,

What a crew! It appears someone must stir the pot or we're not happy!

Simple green...best stock finish removing agent I've ever found. Was turned on to it by the Secretary of the American Custom Guncrafters Guild. Takes off old varnish type finishes in a heartbeat. Paint on/wash off. Would not let it sit to long on most things, but does not hurt high grade walnut one bit.

Chris, Mang you said 7mm! You the proud owner of how many 6.5's?

I tried a 7/08 and found it lacking. Could never get anywhere near the published velocity and bullets seemed to vary widely in quality/consistency. I was shooting a Shilen barrel that seemed a bit tight. That may have been the culprit...

Boot's O is shooting a 6.5/08 and has been for some time. Think that say's something. Of course he would probably shoot high master with a slingshot.

I know he tried 7MM's and got away from them. Eric probably went 30/338 for the more consistent .30 cal bullets. Just my guess.

Tomorrow may be a range day...depends on our rather unpredictable weather.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 03:23:09 (ZULU)



Bearman, check out portatarget.com. A friend of mine got the 8" swinger and the high power silhouette non reactive target. I built stands for them. They will take anything up to 3000 fps, site says .223 to 300 winmag and slugs. We set them up at 300 yards and shot 168 GMM and .223 55fmj at them. When we went to see the damage only the paint was knocked off, not even a dimple in the steel. I couldn't believe it. They are not cheap but you will never wear one out. If I remember right the site says some of their targets have taken 500,000 rounds and still going strong. I will be buying some of these in the future.

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
Alvin, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 03:42:30 (ZULU)


You never know where the next thread is coming from.  I ask a question about small arms' lube for the desert and we get a lunatic motor-oil thread.  I make a weak joke about mixing rum and valvoline, now its "Simple Green" country.

Yep, Wes, "what a crew".

At least Bill and I aren't at each other's throats.

Steve~Hockeyref:  Yeah.  Post that data.  I'll run it.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 03:43:48 (ZULU)


Bill Byford, dunno why my last post (7mm)has your name on it unless I absent mindedly typed it there. Anyway E-mail came like a flood from last couple of weeks. Good job Marius.

Varmint bullets fragmenting; dang right they do. Hornady SX comes with a warning but in 7in twist it's max speed is about 2200 fps.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 04:55:38 (ZULU)


Fav gun cleaning fuck up story.

Okinawa 1978.  Gooch is a weapons custodian for B Co 1st Battalion, 5th Marines.  Our super squad competition team comes in late on a Friday from training so we give them a can of dry cleaning solvent to hurry up the process of cleaning.  They clean the shit out of the weapons, we turn them in and we head out into Kin Village for an evening of fun and games.

Monday morning we entered our weapons cage and found the coolest collection of rust red M16A1's that anyone could want.  THe buttheads hadnt lubed the things at all.....

So me and my buddy spent the morning scrubbing and LSA'ing the hell out of them things before the battalion armorers neutered us.  They later found our can of solvent and took it away muttering something about "dumb grunts" not knowing how to care for weapons or words to that effect.

Out here

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 05:38:10 (ZULU)


Finally headed home...after nine months at sea!

Dover Email this member See this member's profile
Amphib headed home, - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 07:30:31 (ZULU)


Dover,

Welcome home, and thanks for the sacrifices from your family and yourself.

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 11:00:12 (ZULU)


Ok, ok, now let me tell one.

When I was an Infantry private it was common practice upon returning from the field to take our weapons into the shower with us.  Not only were these weapons dirty from firing they were often muddy.  We’d keep one shower head running full hot and we would hold our weapons under that shower head and scrub the dirt out of them.  We would then shake them off and being so hot the water evaporated quickly.  Then we’d proceed to clean and lubricate them conventionally.  Possession of carburetor cleaner or WD-40 was a serious offence.  We were stuck with what was issued.  Back then we got LSA and Rifle Bore Cleaner.  The 90mm reckless rifle was the most difficult weapon to clean after firing because the bore would continue to “sweat” carbon for several days so we’d have to clean it for days.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 11:30:38 (ZULU)


When I was on a 60 crew, I would bring the reciever upstairs and fill the boot (drop bely) sink with scalding hot water and liquid tide.  A few swished in that and then hammer her out with a bottle brush and it was spottless.  Shake her off and lube it up with a little CLP and I'm done.  Of course,, you'd get UCMJ's for getting caught,, but a SPC4 at Beer-thirty on Friday night in Berlin,,,, hell,,, it was worth it.

I had a squad leader spray his M16 down with Carb cleaner and then get called away to the CP.  He left it in the sun for hours, baking.  Upon his return, he wiped it down and took every bit of  back coating off the upper reciever.  THAT was a face to be remembered.

Wes,

Yeah,, I love the 6.5, but everyone wants a better mousetrap.

Back into the tornadic winds and terrential downpours for 18 more hours of fun on cellsites ;)

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 12:27:12 (ZULU)



We used those water heaters intended for mess gear that go in a GI garbage can to clean the cosmoline off stored weapons. It's not as good as a steam cleaner, but sometimes one must improvise, adapt, overcome... These days a dishwasher works, too, though it's probably a good idea to do that when your spousal unit is not around...

Dover - glad you're coming home. Your long tour and sacrifice has paid off, and we're grateful. Well done!

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 12:56:54 (ZULU)


Sir Wes,

>>>Boot's O is shooting a 6.5/08 and has been for some time. Think that say's something. <<<

Ain't a 6.5/08 about the same thing as a .260 Rem?

Larry

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 13:54:58 (ZULU)



Dover:  Welcome home and congratulations on the most one-sided military victory in modern times.  You guys did a job that will be studied as long as man studies war.

You did it for us and you have our gratitude.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 14:36:19 (ZULU)



Bearman.

I have used 1/2" T-1 armor plate and at 100 yds, a 308 will make rough  ripple marks on it.  At 200 and further, the 308 will just leave "splats".

But a 300wm mag will leave 1/10" deep craters in it at 400 yds (190SMKs @ 2950), and closer, the 30WM will tear it up badly.

-

Bill Byford...

>"During the sillouete rifle days. (dist 500 meters max) the 7mm-08 which is almost the same as a 284-284..."<

Not hardly, son.  The .284 Win is equal to the long throat 7mmx'06 AI (aka 280 AI), and it hammers that whimpy 7-08 badly!

>"... ate .308's for lunch."<

Also, Not hardly.  I switched from a very good 308 to the "new" 7-08 because of all the hype, and that is what it was... all hype.  There was an advantage on paper, but not enough to show up on steel.  The problem was that the 7-08 showed more kenetic energy with some loads on 500 yd steel, but kenetic energy doesn't push steel down, momentum does, and the 7-08 didn't have it.

I got rid of the 7-08, and went back to the 308.

The 7-08 has never been a major player after 25 years.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 15:07:13 (ZULU)


On steel tgts.  3 things come to mind.

1.  For .308 use at least 3/8 500 Brinnel (spelling?)

2.  Cut/weld it in a manner that will not screw up the temper. Make it so you can turn it around every now and then to avoid dishing.

3.  Hang it vs mount it.  In other words rig it so it can swing or move a little when hit.  If it swings it will give off a nice "gong" sound that is easy to hear vice if you "mount" it on a solid mount you usually just get a "thwack!".

4.  (Doh!)  Consider making circular targets instead of sillouettes.  Make them in various sizes.  Place objects of various sizes near them for determining distances using mildots.  

Okay "4" things come to mind....

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 15:26:55 (ZULU)


284 Win gives up about 4-6gns of powder capacity to the 280AI, assuming the 284 is loaded in a normal action, instead of that rediculous SA nonsense.  About even with a normal bolt gun loaded 280Rem(not the wimp loaded gas gun crap)  With 168's, this has looked to be maybe 100fps in favor of the AI, depending on who's pouring the powder.  With most LR guys I know, it's a wash, as they only vaguely pay attention to SAMMI specs and just load until it's accurate and not popping primers.  So it's what you're seeing right now with 6.5-284, everybody wants that slight edge and they frag barrels paying for it.  My AI is just fine at 2900fps(26" tube)with 168's and I fully expect 3K rds before it goes away.

284Win is about 300fps faster than 7-08(168's).  Both are good LR rounds IMO, the edge going to the 284 if you don't mind the reduced barrel life.  

7-08:  Beats 308 hands down IME.  Velocity, energy, momentum, whatever.  You give up barrel life.  Skip all those stupid light bullets, which are a waste of time in any caliber anyways and use at least 168 SMK's or 162 A-maxes.  Either of these bullets will smoke the 308Win in any flavor.  It takes me an actual 28.5MOA to get from 200yd to 1K on the 28" barreled 7-08 using 162 A-maxes.  They do a sedate 2660fps from that long barrel.  Takes handloading, and you're on your own for data.  S/F....Ken M    

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 16:10:25 (ZULU)


There is a lot more enthusiasm for Americans in Baghdad, according to this story, than you'll see in the mainstream press and TV reporting. Why am I not surprised?

http://www.theweeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/629xnqei.asp

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 16:44:35 (ZULU)


Dover, Welcome home, shipmate.  Those long deployments are wearing, and I appreciate you still being there, doing what's gotta be done.

Gooch, I didn't like what Bob did, either.  I used to cringe when I saw how some of my shipmates acted out in Olongapo and Subic.  The best I can say is they were young and full of.....something.  Having been in the Asian theater before, I kinda knew how to read a little bit on the faces of the people, and for the most part it wasn't pretty.  Of course, when you get people coming HERE from other countries, with all the freedoms we have here, you sometimes see the same thing, so I guess it's more of an "I'm away from home, and no one will know what I'm doing" thing, than and American trait.

Good results from my new Oly Match upper on the AR.  Traded another officer for my Rock River shorty upper, straight across, as I wanted something with a little longer sight radius and range.  Only thing is, it slings 55gr bullets in a pattern, not a group.  1-9 twist, oughtta do better than that.  Put a free-float tube on it and MOLY in the bore.  Shooting 69gr Sierras, it settled down to boringly consistent x-ring groups, most in the 3/4 to 1" range.  Stock trigger has to go.  Has anyone else ever seen a bbl that puts out shotgun patterns with the lighter bullets with that twist?  Or, do you think it was just the miraculous effect of MOLYBDENUM?  

I'm outta here.....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 17:13:43 (ZULU)


Gooch:

< Fav gun cleaning fuck up story.>

No kidding!!  That's the very reason our arms room up at Ft. Buckner had modified wall lockers in it for weapons storage.  Each had a couple of light bulbs burning in them to keep things dry.  That was with lubed weapons.  I can imagine what happened when you stripped em.

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 18:02:11 (ZULU)


Gooch

   You haven't been to the ASC match, but all of our steel is assorted sizes; from MGM mini poppers to fat man targets..This year we've added the C-zone and middle brother size   as well as a US rifle popper.  Also use Larues and MGM 8" flopper targets..Makes ranging interesting.  

   You guys are going to have fun this year{if it doesn't snow again}..

   Closing in on finishing the set up for the match.  Will get with it IF it ever quits raining.  Grass is so high you could hide a big hog in it. Should keep the early chuck hunters from hammering them before the little ones are out on their own.  

  Bruce, did you get my E-Mail?????????

  outa here

Markwell Email this member See this member's profile
growing gills in the Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 19:54:19 (ZULU)


For you 50-BMG shooters,

What are you shooting (Barrett 82A1, Armalite AR50, etc.) and what are your experiences?  What do you like/dislike?  What about barrel life, how many rounds before you re-chamber?  What kind of projectiles do you prefer to launch, and at what speed?

I'm just tossing around some ideas, hoping to get some of your input.

Thanks,

Duman

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 20:19:06 (ZULU)


About to pick up some H-4831-SC from my local distributor, will be interesting to see how fast [and accurate] the 155 loads will go this weekend.

Who else has shooting plans this weekend?

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 21:17:22 (ZULU)



DewMan...

>"What are you shooting (Barrett 82A1, Armalite AR50, etc.)"<

AR-50

>"... and what are your experiences?"<

Great... the gun recoils like a .243 (though the concussion will wake your great, great, great grandfather ;)

>"What do you like/dislike?"<

The gun is very well made, everything fits and is smooth.  I like the adjustable cheekpiece, cuz you will wind up with the scope up high, and you need all the lift you can get.

I love the muzzle break, and when I'm not shooting, I rent it out to the neighbors to store their camping equipment in ;))

>"What about barrel life, how many rounds before you re-chamber?"<

VERY HARD to shoot out a 50... I don't know anyone that had to have one rebarreled, because the barrel was shot out.

>"What kind of projectiles do you prefer to launch,"<

My favorites are (in decending order)... M48's, then Bluetips, then APIT.  For match type stuff, the Hornady A-Max 750's are my choice.

>" and at what speed?"<

As fast as I can ;)))

Blue's and APITs are going around 2700-2800, the A-Maxs are going about 2600, and the M-48's are going about 2500.

>"I'm just tossing around some ideas, hoping to get some of your input."<

Uh huh... sure you are... That's what I said too. ;))

-

'lito

(loadin' for ASC#2, an' breathin' funny ;)

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 21:39:43 (ZULU)


Markwell,

Nothing in the last month or so.

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 22:03:48 (ZULU)


Gents,

Gooch-san. Did a stint at Camp Hansen in '79. Probably just missed you. Remember the ranges at Hansen and Camp Swab well. Nice to try and qualify in almost typhoon conditions.

Larry, Yes, the 6.5/08 is the same as a .260 Remmie with minor dimensional differences.

All this talk of calibers. Everyone after an edge. Pick your caliber, smile and be happy. The .308 and 6.5 X .284 do it for me.

For you others it's "whatever floats your boat".

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 22:14:33 (ZULU)


C.S.Hunt, I got a 223 barrel that shoots patterns with lighter projos but its because of seating depth,cant get the short little ones close enough to the lands.69smk worky velly good.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 22:24:03 (ZULU)



SWFA has a good price on a Swarovski 10x42 Mil Dot scope. How does it compare to Leupold Varix X-III M1/M3 ?

thanks

Andrew

Andrew Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 22:59:14 (ZULU)


Good article for those getting started in highpower shooting:

http://www.floridashooting.com/Misc/OranWoody_Newbie/OranWoody_Newbie.pdf

Off the sniper country articles archive by barrel maker and long-range hunter Dan Lilja (re: air density and ballistic performance):

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/density_bullet_performance.htm

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/ballistic_altitude_temperature_humidity.htm

May explain Kev's change in elevation from Upstate New Yawk and Raton.

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 23:10:18 (ZULU)


Brian S, ChuckH, Dirty Steve, incoming mail w/o attachments.

Wes,

I'm still stirving to find the perfect cartdridge.  The 6.5x284 is nice.  If I can find a balance between performance and barrel life, I'll be done.  For now that is ;))

KenM,

How much of a real world difference do you expect with 100fps?  Are you seeing a noticeable advantage?  Having the extra 4 or 5 gr would be nice pushing heavy bullets.  If I go 284WIN, I'll likey use 157gr VLD's.

Pat(Mr. Bullet),  Where you been hiding man.  You couldn't have gotten lost in the wind,, as we have it all here in TN!!

'Lito,

One of the guys I shoot with is re-barreling three 50BMG bolt actions for a guy here in TN.  In return for the smithing, he GAVE him a 50 cal Rock action.  Don't know if the tubes were worn out though.  Guess this guy is pretty big in the FCSA and is a a hell of a big bore shooter.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 23:45:20 (ZULU)


Gents

   My original question was about the 7mm Rem Mag and it turned into 7mm country. Which is fine. I learn alot whenever I ask a question here.  I guess I should have asked for 7 Rem Mag fans.

   My problem is, I have a good supply of Norma 7 Mag brass and would like to use it. If  bullets are a problem, theres always the 30-338. Any thoughts on the 30-338 would be appreciated (pros and cons). I will be handloading all ammo and like the idea of being able to seat the bullets out longer as the throat goes and still fit in a mag and the 30-338 has a longer neck than  the WM.

   Barrel life 7mm Mag vs 30-338. the 30-338 should last longer do to same powder cap and larger bore. Right?

Bill

Bill Byford Email this member See this member's profile
South , IL, USA - Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 23:46:34 (ZULU)



BillB,

I shoot with one guy who won Wimbledon, and one who was part of a team who won the Farr cup.  Both shoot Rem 40X's chambered for 30-338.  I don't know anyone shooting 7REM mags.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 23:51:57 (ZULU)


Bill B. hand me that can opener will you. These worms are getting loud in there. There are a lot of 7mm bullets and the bal. coef. is pretty good on some of them. The .280 is a good 7mm round. Old 30-06 case with good ballistics. Somebody wanna piss I'm used to it, I bet that rose bush would make a good target.

   The 7mm is not inaccurate. It's not unpopular on the Slopes. I too don't know anyone shooting a 7mm/mag. at long targets and Lito's right about 7mm/08 not living up to the hipe. Same is true of .244 (6mm) remington and .243. My god we were gonna hunt elephants with that round.....There's no earthly reason why a 7mm mag ain't accurate, put it in a SEndero or let Geo work one up and it will shoot but it kicks mama mia and don't need it in a 200 round sniper match. I don't know anyone shooting a .270. but it will shoot. These bullets and these guns are not human. Spin em right, case em right, send em down a good barrel with a good chamber and expect great things. Belted cases are a little funny to handle. ha ha ha. Now that's about as funny as they are. Treat em like 300 win mags. ha ha thats 2 funnies. and you'll get good results. 284 my ass, it's just a case. Maybe the most accurate case in the world for all I know but I sure don't know why. But I'll bet somebody's about to tell me!

Now, don't say I don't like 284's or I'll pull yer head off.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 00:16:47 (ZULU)


How much of a real world difference do you expect with 100fps? <<<

Almost no difference IMO.  You'll catch one or two liners that might have gone out with the slower cartridge, but that's a never ending game.  You go faster, and then you want to go faster still, and so on.

>>>>Are you seeing a noticeable advantage?<<<<

Not really.

>>>>Having the extra 4 or 5 gr would be nice pushing heavy bullets.<<<<

It's nice IMO to run heavy bullets at the same velocity, at less pressure.  I hear guys tell me they are killing AR barrels in 4000 rds or so with the super boomer loads trying to buy every last little bit out of that cartridge.  Whatever works for them.  I use 24.0 RL-15 and get almost 9K out of my barrels.  And I still shoot in the 490's when my head isn't up my ass.  I hear you guys talking about 3100-3200 plus with the 6.5-284 and I can see JR smiling over across the pond all the way from Chicago.

>>>>If I go 284WIN, I'll likey use 157gr VLD's.<<<<\\

Make sure you buy an assload of them at once.  Wacky custom stuff has a major problem with either changing lot to lot or going away entirely.  I had this problem with the A-max, and IIRC, so did Lito, with the fabled 180gn .30cal A-max.

Bill, I shoot a 7mm Rem Mag.  It'll do 190's all day long at 1K.  I'm using 168gn JLK's loaded to 0.001 jump(yeah, that's right, one thousandth off the lands) with 71.5gns of H1000 and Fed 215M primers in Norma brass.  I used to use 168SMK's, loaded 0.020 off, with 71.5gn H1000, 215M and R-P brass.  Either load works, the JLK's are flatter shooting but touchy about jump.  The Sierra is built like the proverbial brick schiesshaus and will perform reliably all the time, pretty much no matter what you jump them.  I used 0.020 because it shot 3/4" groups at 200yds the first time I shot this rifle, and doesn't do much worse since.  Hope that was useful.  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 00:16:57 (ZULU)


Addendum:

7mm Rem barrel life.  Going to depend on how hot you get it and how much you hammer it when it's hot.  I expect about 1500rds through mine, but have not killed this one yet.  When it stops shooting, it gets rebarreled.  Am I going to shoot the Wimbledon with a rifle with 1400rds on it?  No, but IME looking at barrels with borescopes is a needlessly terrifying thing.  They look like the surface of the moon, but still shoot?  Shoot 'em.  Keep a good book.  When they go away, make notes, tell the world and start building the experience base.  A lot really depends on the loads you're running.  Some guy shooting a 300 Mag with 190's at 2900 from a 26" barrel with H4831 is going to get lots better life than the guy running 210's at 2850 using IMR 4350.

And on that note, I'd like to clarify some things.  I was worried when I posted my 7mm-08, 284, 280AI statements earlier, Lito was gonna think I was pissing in his Wheaties.  I'm not about starting some flamewar BS, I'm just telling what I've done.  My experience with the various 7mm's have been pretty good, Lito seems to think the 7-08 is a waste of time.  Different experiences lead people down different pathes.  I've got my experience base, he's got his and I doubt either one of us is going to convince the other to disbelieve his lying eyes;-)  Besides, rifles are like women, they're all different, even if they work the same way.  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 00:38:19 (ZULU)


The Secret Service used to use 7mm Rem Mags in their JAR, but I think that went away many, many moons ago when they shifted to the 300 Win Mag.  In the late 70s-early 80s they used custom Federal with green primer seal.  Those rounds were all done by hand.

I think they were the only US federal entity that racked up 7 Mag range time.

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 01:19:50 (ZULU)



Lito- On the Cowboy thing.....Galco is pricey but worth it as far as I'm concerned....There used to be a girl in cust. service I dealt with once on the phone,  she made a sizing mistake (mine) right in record time.....That was about 6 years ago....Her name was Beth Shotwell....great to deal with, first class lady....she said that was her real name, we talked about horses some, and I found out she competed shooting from horseback....just searched that name because it was in the "foggy memory file" and sure enough--   http://www.geocities.com/oldwestshooters/Beth_Shotwell.jpg

   If she's still at Galco, she'll get the belt length right the first time.  

  Damn! This gal's into it!

       http://www.outlawannie.com/costa.htm

       http://www.outlawannie.com/images/costa4.jpg

See if Joe M. will loan ya a mount!!;))

Mark Smith Email this member See this member's profile
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 01:23:45 (ZULU)



WOOOOOHOOOOOO, I've got SCLE #50 in my greasy little paws finally. I'ts AWSOME, George and crew THANKS ALOT. I'll be breaking it in on Thursday. I've shown it to a couple of guys already and they just stare and say " wow, thats one fine rifle I can't believe how smooth the bolt and trigger are"

Lindy: are you up for a little range time Thursday morning?

Dover: to you and you buddies, THANKS don't express our gratitude for a job well done. welcome home.

edited for spelling

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
Alvin, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 01:27:45 (ZULU)


Gents:

My work day consists of going to the Post Office in Los Lunas, picking up orders, shipping out orders…..for the last 5 years…..know everybody down there, and for me it’s like Norm going into Cheers.

Waiting in line today, I had an old gentleman behind me wearing a ball cap that said “God Bless America” and “Proud To Be A Veteran”. He was moving slow, one of those canes with four legs in his right hand.

While waiting for my turn at the counter, I turned to the vet and asked (misjudging his age badly) “Korea Vet?”

He smiled and said, “No, European Vet……North Africa and Italy.”

I extended my hand and told him that I wanted to thank him for his service. He just about threw the cane to the side, grinned, and shook my hand.

I was privileged and honored to have met him and shaken his hand. I don’t know his name, but may see him again…..it’s a small town. My wife and I have the life that we have today because of this man and thousands like him.

Guys, thank every vet you meet.

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 01:30:08 (ZULU)



'Yote Bait,

I shoot with a fella who shoots both 270win and 22-250 at 1K.  Prone shooter.  He had shoulder surgery last year and rarely shoots the 270 anymore.  At the K line, I think 270 is limited my the lack of good match bullets.  A 135SMK for that much gun is pitifull IMHO.  They should offer a 160 with a loooooooooong boat tail and a non closed up nose and you'd see more of them out there I bet.

Funny you should mension the 6's.  I'm looking at building a 6BR for my 600 yard matches and maybe some Silhoutte.  Seems like a nice little cartdridge, and proven to be very accuarte.

Ken M,

That all makes sense to me.  I hear ya on the superguns speeds.  I run my fagmags under 3000fps, and strive to keep them at 2950.  Funny thing is, that's where many of the winners are runnning them, 2900 to 2950fps.  They have fewer unexplained flyers at these speeds, and why burn up a proven winner over .1moa wind drift.  You generally don't hear that advertised though.  Maybe I should shut up ;)) Kevin is smoking them 139's down range and having outstanding results,, so the speed certainly has it's place.

Large lots of 7mm.  I had considered that, and Robert Cauterucio is who's bullets I'd use, but at $27 per 100, it's an expensive game.  Especially when you consider I get 142SMK for $18 a box.  I've been concerned over guys bitching about blowing bullets up, and having HUGE variations lot to lot, like you said.  If I was anal about my loading, and weighed and measured every bullet, this would be less of a problem I think, but it only takes 1 bad jacket to keep you out of the shoot off.  

Now that Sierra has downgraded the BC of their 7mm bullets, they look far less attractive.  I would like to see them get this sorted out.  I don't really trust the AMAX's, though I've never personally had a problem with them, I just prefer to shoot SMK's.

This is a good thread.  We get both sides of the fence and a couple fence sitters....

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 01:33:49 (ZULU)


Ken M:  "I use 24.0 RL-15 and get almost 9K out of my barrels."

Tell me about that load.  What bullets/primers/cases are you using?  How deep are you seating them?  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 01:43:38 (ZULU)


Tony: Am I up for some range time? Shirley, you jest! Check your non-work email. Congrats on the new stick! I'll bring some Fed. 175s and my chrony, and we'll see what she'll do. Gonna have to do some loading tomorrow...

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 02:45:23 (ZULU)


Bruce; I have a WWII vet just like yours. Normandy first wave. I feel like someone just raised a flag when I see him.

Chris; mee too! But I got ova it and now shoot the A max. The Drag really does help. Especially trying to get a 20" .308 to a click.

Keeps me above the sound.

Rusty guns you say; skip to the next post or come with me to the Bob Marshall Wilderness Montana. It's foot or horseback about 13 Mi. In to the river. We had a drop camp waiting for us at 13 nukes after getting educated  that plains boots don't cut it in the "Bob". But the packs were only 30 lbs. and the water was cold. I had a Thompson Contender in .444 Marlin and 14" of barrel. Just for Griz arguments should one occur. The green hats don't like it but it beats being eaten. Watched a female on one of the high passes hunting Marmots and beating her cubs around to make em behave. An awesome sight to see how fast she moved amoung the rocks that tore my Wolverines off, and learned about hollering to pack strings so they don't you don't eat em when they approach. WE reached the camp and slept that night on a tarp. I placed the .444 under my pillow inside my bag and used my first gun cloth for an hour to get the rust off the next morning. The next night I put it under the tarp in a pistol rug with it unzipped a little. It happened to be the day the Olympic Athletic was kidnapped so I woke up to the beating wings of a chopper filled with armed men at daylight. They moved away seemingly satisfied we had no woman. Used the second cloth that day. The next night I said to hell with it and hung it up by it's strap to a tree.  The next morning it had dew all over it but no rust.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 03:26:50 (ZULU)



'yote Bate...

I remember when those 6mms came out.  They were supposed to be good for everything up to elk ;)))

After 40 years, I'd say they were good for small deer, and Antelope at the top end, and even better for 'yotes and chucks :))

Deer... dumbest friggin' critter there ever was.  I was takin' Ruggus Rattus to school this morning, in full daylight, and a deer runs out in front of the car in front of me, and whack-three summersaults-splat!  Even a damn frog has enough brains to wait til the road is clear before crossing :((

-

Chris... the reason that the the guy was having three 50 barrels swapped is cuz someone beat him at a match, not cuz they were wore out.  Same with BR guys... 200 rounds and get a new one, cuz you didn't win a match.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 03:29:10 (ZULU)


Interesting article in this months Precision Shooting concerning Wipe-Out Brushless Bore Cleaner. Anyone used this stuff?

Would kinda miss the smell of Hoppes wafting through the house but if this stuff is what they say it is......

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
Getting moldy in, NC, - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 03:51:18 (ZULU)


Tell me about that load.  What bullets/primers/cases are you using?  How deep are you seating them? <<<<<

Standard SR load:  24.0 gns of RL-15 using 75gn Hornady BTHP(moly'd) with older silver Winchester Small Rifle primers.  Loaded to OAL of 2.255 to fit through everything but COLT mags.  Have used the same load with 80gn Hornady BTHP loaded to same OAL.  Also use this same load with 80gn SMK's loaded to 2.380(0.020 jump) and switch to Fed 205M primer.  Brass is all sorts.  I have used 4000 piece lots of RP brass until they started seperating often, then sold them for recycling(30cents/lb).  Currently using Winchester brass, with small lots of LC99,00 and 01 segregated into batches.  IOW, I'll use it, but make sure I'm shooting one or the other, not mixing.  I dabbled with Lapua brass for 600yd ammo, but didn't notice any improvement.  Now I use Winchester for LR.  Chamfered primer pocket and flashhole on 600 and LR loads, everything else is tumbled, sized, trimmed(Gracey), tumbled again with some acetone to remove the lube, then fed into the Dillon 650 and loaded.  S/F...Ken M        

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 04:21:55 (ZULU)


Ooooweee!  Ah the single life.  Just got home from work, downed a protein shake, opened a can of Dinty Moore Beef Stew, slapped in a few shots of Texas Petes and ate it out of the can!! Dont get much better than this!!

Out here....

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 05:19:14 (ZULU)


Gents,

    Thank you all for the E-mails that just landed, looks to be a weeks worth by dates. If you sent me one then you got one on the way.

   Spent the day doing stalking excerscises since it was too wet to climb and I WAS NOT GOING HOME YET! My Lady is an avid nature watcher and has great optics thats she is real good with. She set up on a good  site on a bump on the back side of the Shawangunks and I tried to stalk in. When she was sure she had me spotted she called me on the motarola. Using only what was on hand for camo was a good challange and great practice for come-as-you-are operations. What has me concerned is I know she can shoot.

Alan, Parts for the AR-SPR are on the way, now to arrange the time...

Bill, I know that condensation problem well it is one of the reasons I chose a lil glock for a "sleeping bag gun". Less steel to keep warm.

One really muddy, happy Critter signing off.

web crittenden Email this member See this member's profile
there is no school solution to tactics, Ny, the best one - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 05:35:05 (ZULU)



Goochman; that's fine, but what part is describing the "single life"?

Never mind. Have a bit of Wolf Brand and a slimfast.

Da Critter; shure nuff! Mountain's have their little traits. I always wondered about those old Muzzle loaders, bear grease I guess.

Catman; Stalking reminded me of a couple of dumb little 2 year old twin whitetail bucks I stalked in on with a bow once. I got within 20 feet on one and he smelled me. He started pawing and stomping the ground and his buddy got in on the act. Thanks to the powers that it was post rut. This went on for a few minutes at my amusement because they were really too small to shoot anyway...till his buddy lowered his double Kabars for a charge. Exit stage left, bowhunter can't shoot fast, a compound 70lb Bow, while lying flat. I may have been dumber than the bucks, cause I went on down river and stalked in on a cow Elk, who was grazing. Don't touch a Cow Elk when she don't know you're around, unless there's a tree close.

 Stalking can be dangerous to your health. But I had a full suit of fall leaf I just had to try on animals. A Green-hat Walked up on me when I was callin dogs in 12" Grass and small sage. Scared himself bad since I didn't move and let him get to 3' feet before I asked him if I could help him?  and then asked if I had heard a rabbit screaming.  I still believe in Fall Leaf Camo.  I had a shiny Remington Classic rifle on that occasion, and the camo was nowhere near the color of the grass. The ranger was an old vet of many years and couldn't believe he didn't see me. Do I have any stories left?

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 13:42:14 (ZULU)


Bill: Damon Runyan said, "The race goes not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong - but that's the way to bet." I'd bet you might have another story, or even two...  :-)

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 14:19:53 (ZULU)


CDC -

Incoming through the DR Mail link.... Varget data.....

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 15:41:11 (ZULU)


KenM, I agree 100fps is not much. with a 190 30 cal its around 9" elevation difference under SAC at 1000 yards.  Take the load that shoots best  and back off on velocity if needed.

Stalking, cant get the burlap to stop slipping on my critches. Damm I hate these damm things. Got second opinion yesterday. Second said first doctor screwed up. Now time for a third. Anyone know a good malpractice lawyer?

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 15:46:39 (ZULU)



"The liberation of Iraq was the first great battle for the future of the Middle East. The creation of a free Iraq is now of fundamental importance, and we must do what it takes to make a decent, democratic Iraq a reality. But the next great battle--not, we hope, a military battle--will be for Iran. We are already in a death struggle with Iran over the future of Iraq. The theocrats ruling Iran understand that the stakes are now double or nothing. They can stay in power (ONLY!) by disrupting efforts to create a pluralist, non-theocratic, Shia-majority state next door--or they can fall, as success in Iraq sounds the death knell for the Iranian revolution. "

Yep.  That was just one battle.  We're doubling down on Iran.  We have no choice.  The Iranian mad mullahs have no choice.  High stakes poker and our hand is being played by a Texas high-roller.

We'll do fine.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/627wndwf.asp

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 17:47:36 (ZULU)



'Lito,

Quit pickin on the 7-08...I built/own one. it is THE perfect rifle.  Go shoot your fifty...  ;)

<<the reason that the the guy was having three 50 barrels swapped is cuz someone beat him at a match, not cuz they were wore out.  Same with BR guys... 200 rounds and get a new one, cuz you didn't win a match>>

hah, and don't forget, the best things in life are freee........

CDC,

Iran?  no way, couldn't happen, not a chance..  I mean it's not like Iran is a 'real' threat..The only reason Iran ended up on Bush's axis of evil speech is because it's so easy to pronounce, din't ya know that?  ;)

'yote,

Guys at work said they heard on the news it was 'tornado season' in the states..I says, yeah, wonder what the bag limit is this year....

later

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 19:37:22 (ZULU)


Hey Guys,

Just wanted you to know that I had a great time at Badlands last weekend. Had the opportunity to receive some instruction from Bobby Whittington and Steve Suttles. Two of the finest men I have ever met. If you have never taken the time to study and shoot at Badlands you really owe it to yourself. Every time I go there seems to be one of the highlights of my life. Even with 15 to 25 mph winds.

Seeing Steve was really great. He is recovering well from surgery. And to all those who sent him get well cards it really really meant a lot to him. He commented to me several times about that. He has given a lot to this country and to those that have studied under him, so it was good to see some of that returned to him.

SCLE #38 performed very well.  Thanks to George and all those that helped put that project together. From the prone position it's pure pleasure. However, from any other position it sure is heavy. I know, I know get in the gym :-)

Sarge, I'm not sure how you are running your loads at 2750 and matching with the 30.06 BDC. My load is running 2735 and I'm having to adjust 1 to 2 moa under the cam marks for a given range.

Dover, thank you sir and welcome home.

John

John Levens Email this member See this member's profile
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 19:55:40 (ZULU)


Chris..

 Just been busy with a lot of court. I hardly get to get on the computer much during the day, crime is good I guess!!

 I just got my 6.5x284 back in the mail today with a new Pac Nor Super Match barrel, now if I can just keep it away from junior I should be ok(HA)

 The little shit was in Little Rock last week shooting and took high agg. in one of the two matches and 2nd in the other. I think I created a monster!! At the awards presentation when he went up to get his award from the General his Captain told him, "Your old man can still out shoot you"!!(HA) I had met his Captain at the D&L shoot when he was a Lt. seveal years ago so I thought that was a good jab for the little shit!!

 We just got a new FBI agent in from California and he's ex-Special Forces and has been to a couple of the SFs longrange interdiction courses. Moved out here to shoot longrange, am I going to make that boy happy(HA). Seems like a nice guy, he said he shot one or two of the "Mudville" matches so he probably knows Spud or Mike.

Ken...

 Don't remember who was taking about the 284x284 but another nice round is the 30x284. Got my rear handed to me by one in the Varmint Hunter shoot in the unlimited class. Shoot's the 168s around 3000fps, if I remember correctly, and very accurate too.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 20:20:34 (ZULU)


Lito,

(aka:Gunslut, Catwhacker, Kittyslayer, Optic-stud, Ugly-Jungle-Truck-Driver, and Man-Who-Drinks-Rum-Wit-Dubya-D-40-and-Simple-Green)

Yeah, yeah, just an idea. ;-D

Thanks for the info.

I'm hoping some others with 50-BMG experience will chime in.  Does anyone out there shoot a Barrett of any flavor?  I'll continue scanning the archives.

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 21:03:29 (ZULU)



Pat,

Good to see ya back arund the DR.  A "new" fagmag.  Ahhhh,, the excitment, the anticipation,, the load testing....  Ohhh to be young again ;))

'Lito,

"he rebarreled because he lost a match".  Hey,,, I resemble that remark!!  If ya got it, flaunt it... ;)) ((especially when someone else is buying the tubes))

All you 6BR shooters, and I know your out there, which reamers are you using?  I'm going to go with Lapua brass, but haven't yet decided on Remington or Norma chamber.  How far out did you throat?  What kind of MV are you geting with 107's? I can say for 100% certain I won't be neck turning, so lets not even go in that direction. I'm thinking 1:8 twist, 28" barrel.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 21:53:33 (ZULU)


UNDUDE...

Trying to hit you up with an email, no attachments.   If it doesn't work you can contact me at uglygun@bak.rr.com

B. Douglas Email this member See this member's profile
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 22:55:44 (ZULU)


Sharon...

I can't e-mail you yet, but they are working on it, and I'll try in a few days.

-

FatDude... have the 6mm BR chambered for FACTORY LAPUA brass.  I lot of the better barrel makers and 'smiths have reamers for the factory Lapua case.

I had to take so much brass off in triming and neck turning (1,100 pcs) I sold the leavings as scrap for $40 ;)), and wore out a pit in the mandrill. :(((

-

I just dug out my ol' 1897, 18" riot gun for SASS cowboy stuff... man, that WD-40 turns to rock hard glue after a while... I'll soak it in spirits for a week, then take it apart :((

-

Undude/Mike Miller...

I was on the phone with Dick Thomas a few days ago.  I had this ides about changing the clicks on the MK4-M3 and the M3-LR scopes so they would have light and heavy clicks.

Right now, they are the same and you have to look at the numbers to see where your are - if you are a snipie dude,and it is evening, and your spotter has ranged a target at 650, you can't see the little numbers on the turret, so you try to "count clicks" (BADD!!), or you get out your tiny light to see the numbers (VERY BADD!!).

Now, if, instead of the uniform detents in the turret cap, you did a heavy cut at the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 yds markers, and light cuts at the x.25, x.50, x.75, (where possible), then, when your spotter called out 650, you would (in the dark) run the cam to the bottom 100yds, and count 6 BIG clicks, and the two little clicks (in 3 seconds) and you would automatically be at 650 without looking, and then let the round fly.

I thought it is a cool idea, so I called Dick Thomas and we talked about 900 different things, including the crap he is perpetually going through with Leupold.  So he said a few things about it - mostly that since his relationship with Leupold is going south, he doesn't trust them with a new idea like this, and since he won't be selling either of the M3 scopes, that he wants to sit on it for a while.

Give me a call some night  - I want to talk to you about this and something else.

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 23:22:31 (ZULU)


Gentlemen: Once again a demonstration that CatShooter knows whereof he speaks. My Lyman "M" die and taper crimper arrived, so I set them up in my press, after pulling the expander ball out of my Redding sizing die. Using cases out of the same lot, I got one-half of the neck run out from the previous lot, as measured on a Sinclair concentricity fixture, and I didn't have to debur or chamfer necks, making the process much speedier. Much mo betta!

Thank you, 'Lito - I'm in your debt. Again!

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 23:37:16 (ZULU)


Here is a good read I got from another web site.  It is the Diary of a marine Cobra Pilot in Iraq.   http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/907404/posts

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 00:13:50 (ZULU)


HEADS UP GUYS:

There is a guy named John Osborn. Ex Delta subject matter expert on sniping. Been there done it - all. Friend of Rick's and now mine.

He was over the R&D department for Delta for a while (amongst lots of other things), is now retired and conducts training.

This guy has developed a computer program that hooks to a spotting scope. I am unsure of the mechanics of the thing but I have been told that LEDs read the speed of the mirage and that coupled with a baro reading etc. will READ THE WIND FOR YOU. He has been working on it for a decade. He has heretofore been secretive about the mechanics for fear of someone stealing his trade secrets but is about to go public and try and market the thing.

The first time I heard about it was a year ago and I called BS.

Since, I have spoken with Rick and gotten to know John himself. He says the thing works and he is willing to prove it. He is about to try and sell it to all of SOCOM and wants to hit the police and civvy market as well.

SOOOO ... he wants to do a demo to get the word out. RIGHT HERE (Beaumont/Port Arthur).

He wants me and my guys to be there and wants me to do a write up. He says I can invite civilians or anyone I want as long as they are not goofy fuckers.

Looking like the first week of July tenatively.

Any of you guys wanna come? Not often I can invite ya'll to a gig.

Don't ask me a bunch of technical shit about the device because I have no idea what, where, when, why or how. All I know is, it is supposed to work and he has the credentials to back up what he says.

The link to his site. http://131.103.206.24/contact.htm

or Google - DSI John Osborn

Lemme know.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 00:41:23 (ZULU)


Mike Miller and Brian Sain, you have clean emails

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
Alvin, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 01:13:54 (ZULU)



BKS:  "...He says I can invite civilians or anyone I want as long as they are not goofy fuckers..."

And you're posting this notice here?

Guys:  I'm not doing the shoot in OK.  My wife is making me build her a house.  It'll be ready for me to work on as soon as semester finishes.  Badlands sounds like a blast (no pun), but I've got three months to finish the drywall, texture, do the finish carpentry, paint, do the ceramic tile, build a deck, set pavers for a patio, build a retaining wall, and build a fence.

That'll be work from can to can't, seven days per.

Coming home to an empty house and a can of Dinty Moore sounds pretty good right now.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 01:18:18 (ZULU)



'Lito,

the Lapua brass is based off the 6NormaBR design.  I was thinking that there may be some "better" chamber out there, other than factory,, but I WILL NOT neck turn,, so the factory one will likley be fine.  I'm figuring 28 to 29gr VarGet with a 107,, I should be able to go 2800 to 2850 with out too much trouble with a 28" barrel.  I may go 8.5 twist instead of 8.  I'll be doing some searching to see if the 8 is really required, or guys just do it becasue 115 are available and they "might" try them later on down the road.  If a 1:8.5 or 1:9 will workie,, maybe I could push it a tad faster. ;))  What kinda twist is that (and I quote the seller) "Broke POS" 6BR you got running?  

Sir Brian,

That scope sounds interesting.  I look forward to your demo/test.  I'm wondering how it sees through multiple layers of mirage to devise a wind call, and how it emits without detection.  I hope it performs, and his work pays off in spades.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 01:19:36 (ZULU)



Good questions. Fire away fellas. I'll write 'em down and ask cause I sure as shit don't know the answers.

Had a callout two nights ago. Red head (hi Pete). Bi-polar or schizophrenic and on meth. Wanted us to kill her. Waving a damn pistol around. Shot our hostage rescue phone with a Lorcin .380 (target model). She's lucky the negotiator didn't strangle her with the cord after THAT. he heh. That's HIS baby.

Touch and go for a while there.

BK  

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 01:33:47 (ZULU)


Lindy...

I'm glad you like it.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 01:38:47 (ZULU)


'lito san,

Redding neck sizer die, Lyman "M" die and Forrester Ultra seater die arrived, installed and 300 rounds loaded.  Leaving for raton the 17th.

YOU DA MAN!!!!!!!!!

Sharon

(Thanks!)

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A! - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 03:37:23 (ZULU)


Hawg's, and goofy's........lol

More Lupita dial info.......( from can you believe it or not file??).

Spoke with a techie........

Axed him about the NEW 175 dial......

I told him, I had heard..that it was gonna be for 175's @ 2685fps..

He said, Nope..........

Made speshull for the military.........2570fps, in METERS.

I said, keep it...I won't need it.

He said, no matter, all were going to the service folks.

Tried to send me to  Kenton Ind, I told him, WHY doesn't Lupita, start listening to the folks that use their stuff??.

Why send someone to another vendor, when you can make and sell it yourself??........Goofy.

anywho......trading the 5.56, for a ' 06..........better strike while the iron's hot on this boyeez...

I can forsee them dropping the '06 dial soon.

Mr.Sain,

I can believe it,,,,,,,,

I am surprised it hasn't happened sooner......

Funny thing is, I was thinking of a similar set up just yesterday, except using the scope.......not a spotting scope.

While this is great news, and tech marches on, I can see a day soon coming when any idiot with the $$ can and will be able to shoot with an accuracy ratio heretofore unknown to all but the very best/elite.....

And, this will bode ill for the legit shooting community.

I hope I am wrong..but, I wasn't on the "Wundernine" craze.....

TWO SHOES

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 04:08:34 (ZULU)


Dumb cleaning tricks revisited:

 In 1986, panama with the Duece:  Young PfC "Jay" in weapons squad had this really dirty pig (M60 for those who ain't humped this pig).  Well, he also has this can of easy-off oven cleaner and a dim bulb glowing above his head.  So he sneaks off and sprays the magic on.  Figures 30 minutes ought to be just right, per instructions on the can.  But under that foamy mess lurked a brite shiney silver M60--oh no!  Where'd all the black go???  The 1SG nuked him, the CO charged him for the gun.

On our return stateside, I run into the orderly room and find the 1SG pissing himself in laughter...what's up here?  Seems ol' PFC Jay was trying to claim "his" silver M60 with the pay-stub showing paid in full.  He was adament about having "bought it"...he was still bitchin' about "his" gun when I un-assed the AO.  And Top was still busting his gut.  

I pass the guidon friday and move out.  I'll be in touch with the group as I can.  

Interim email:

joe.b.mahon@us.army.mil

I'll spend two weeks hanging with my kids...then it's off to the sandbox.  Heheh.  I was never any good at armored warfare--so I guess I didn't miss too much...I like the assymetrical stuff much betterer...

N. Korea is getting kinda warm lately, eh?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 07:19:08 (ZULU)


TonyB,

 Got the package.  Very nice workmanship, and my thanks.  Blake and I (and indeed, Nicole and Raegan and the unnamed belly lump) will have much fun on the range.  

Geoff,

Leave starts friday--open range days for whatever your schedule allows.

Deputy Doug:

Be careful if you are playin' in the crackdown over on the lake.  Dudes who are packing ain't playin' nice!! Be careful anyways, same for (in)Sain and Rob Opp and the rest of you in blue.  

My team gave me send off for the record books.  Easily the nicest momento of my career.  Doubt I'll ever shoot it; it looks too good in that engraved box.  Let's just say it is befitting a Cavalry Officer...yeah, I've also got the stetson and spurs.  Gun pilots are such cowboys--if you haven't already heard...heheh.

I'll lurk when available--keep up the good topics.  I learned tons the last two weeks.  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 07:35:39 (ZULU)


Anything I need to watch out for before turning my 700VS into a switch barrel? I’ve been told to pin the recoil lug to avoid bedding problems (thanks Chris!) but any more sage advice? It is a short action  308 and I’d like to get a 260  barrel for it. (Is I in 8 ok or too fast?)

Yep Lito saved me loads of time and money too with his die recommendations. I went through 2 other sets of 308 dies before I found (was told!) the holy grail. Redding S type bushing die, Redding Comp or Forster Ultra seater and a taper crimp. (got a Dillon 550 so no room for a Lyman M)

One word of caution though, if you are using even slightly compressed loads avoid the Redding seater. The seating stem in my 223 seater is starting to show small cracks around the rim where it is “blossoming” under the seating force. It’s done about 4000 rounds of 77SMK’s seated to mag length over 24.5gr Varget, though it was probably the 1000 odd rounds of 69SMK’s over 25.5gr Varget that started the rot!. I tried to order a new seating stem/sleeve thingy but the nice man at Redding said to send it back for a look, but that it is “not a powder crunching die”. And  now I believe him! I spoke to Sinclair yesterday to order an Ultra seater but they’re out of stock for 3 – 4 weeks so I’ve got a “normal” Forster seater coming because I need to reload about 1000 rounds to see me through the next 6 weeks. ( lots of comps coming up) But I’m rambling on a bit now, time to go.

Mark D

Mark D Email this member See this member's profile
London, UK - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 11:00:11 (ZULU)


Ref: Demonstration

BKS I'll be there, waiting for details.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 13:38:58 (ZULU)


Guys,

Heading out tomorrow for Ukraine.   I shipped all the binoculars that were paid for, and any remaining orders will have to wait until I get back.   Try not to get into any pissing matches while I'm gone.   Da Svidonya.

Don

Don K. Email this member See this member's profile
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 14:22:12 (ZULU)



FatDude...

For the 6mm BR with the 107's... you need a 8", and NOT an 8.5"... I got that skinny from the horsie that does it ;)

-

Mark D...

Try Midwayusa.com for the Forster "Ultra"... they carry them.

Also you can go direct to Foster for it.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/

Just because Sinclair doesn't have them, doesn't mean that they are not available... Sinclair has to wait til they have a big (as in B-I-G) order to qualify for discounts... you don't!

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 14:30:37 (ZULU)


Chris..

  Read your post on the 6BR be sure you get the right reamer for your brass. I talked to my gunsmith yesterday and we got to talking about reamers (6.5x284s) and he made mention of the problems they had with the 6BRs because there are about 3 or 4 different ones depending on the brass you use.

  I got my 6.5x284 back and guess what?? None of my brass fits it!!! It won't even come close to chambering. (Thats why I called) I wanted to know what reamer he used. He used the Pacific for the Norma Match and its tight. I couldn't even put new Hornady brass in it without running it into a bump die.

  I will have to get a full length die for my other brass to use it. At least I hope it will work. The bad thing is I have about 300rds loaded for my old gun.

  I still think you need to look at the 6-250 rather than the 6BR for the heavy bullets. The 6-250 will push them to 2900fps without the pressure you will have with the BR case. This is what a lot of the "Big Boys" tell me anyway. Either way I think you will really like the gun, BRs are deadly accurate and so are the 6-250s and no recoil. Great gun for the wife(HA)

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 14:35:43 (ZULU)



Joe M:  You didn't say where in the sandbox you're going, but I think there's a greater chance of "interesting times" there than in Korea.  We've got the Iranian leadership cornered, so they have to take the fight to us.  They're going down, but they can be expected to go down swinging.  Iraq is their preferred battlefield and Iraqi Shiites are their intended proxy forces.

They'd be delighted to see you die.  Don't cooperate.    

BKS:  All banter aside, I'd like to see this gizmo work and have some training that would apply.  But Port Arthur isn't on my itinerary.  Pablo is an experienced optics researcher and there are engineers here too.  If we asked you all about the thing, and discussed it in detail, there's a real good chance we would get a real good understanding of it thereby blowing your buddy's chance of making an honest buck on the deal.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 14:48:56 (ZULU)



Chris...

What Pat said!!  In spades.

I came onto my 6mm BR out of the most freakish set of circumstances... I bought a BRAND NEW 40-XBBR, unfired in the box... for $700!!!

The guy bought it new, cuz he heard that the 40-XBBR was the best varmint riffle around.  But he was totally green at handloading, and didn't know what that little ".264" on the barrel meant.  He couldn't chamber the rounds, and called Rem, got into a pissing contest with them and told them off... they told him the gun was fine and that "It might be a little over his head" HA!!

So he "dumped" that no-good doggie on me for $700 to buy a M700 VS in .223 (with a Tabasco already on it... Double HA!!)

Anyway... I then sold the green McMillan stock to Sharon (it went well with the Red pumps ;)... then I got a Rem laminated varmint stock from Pat, and put it together... so I gots about $550 in the gun, and it makes a GREAT 400-500 yd Chuck and crow rifle, with 58gr V-Maxs at 3500fps.

BUT... since I'm not a benchrester, if I had to it without a goofie deal, with my own "real" money, I wouldn't go with the 6mm BR again... I would go with the 6-250, or other "40 to 45 grain" case.  The BR is just too small, and has too many problems, too many variations, too many different reamers, too many "EVERYTHINGS"!!

JMNSHO...

-

'lito

(Gotta go get some money ;)

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 15:06:55 (ZULU)


Joe, be carefull. Come back in one piece.

Emails. several have tried from here to get me. Not sure if its the Tactical@tacticalintervention.com address rejecting you or just another glitch here.

Use this one if you send me emails  DMMDNLN@AOL.COM

Thanks

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 15:44:06 (ZULU)



Another good source for reloading and shooting products is Graf & Sons.

I've had good luck with them over the years.  Click on my name below, or http://www.grafs.com/

They stock all the Forster products as well . . .

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 19:36:33 (ZULU)


OK, how would I make a wind reader on my spotting scope?  I'd have to read the angle of the optical disturbances in the mirage but, what if my bullet goes 20' up in the air or read the focus distance from 2 pixels to converge....Let's see. I could convert the image to computerized and track a pixel? I could then track it at the previously ranged object by lazer than then .... who the hell knows?  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 22:32:02 (ZULU)


"lito and Pat,

Ya know,, I have a friend with a 6/22-250 reamer.  He shot it some at 1K and pulled the barrel off.  The rounds sounded like they were smokin' when they came through the paper at a grand,, but he wasn't overly impressed.  I don't know how it did at 600.  I'll need to talk with him, and see what his reamer was cut for.  I think he was shooting Win brass, but I also think he had the necks turned.

I'm also wondering how picky the loads are for this round?  The fagmags take some getting used to when compared to a 308win.  They shoot like a house a fire,, but you gotta be on top of the smallbores ;)) Ohh,, and reamerrental is selling a 6WSM now.  WTF over??  a 107 with 75gr Powder under it 's ass,, OUCH!!!  Whaddaya figure,,, 400 rounds per barrel???

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 22:55:52 (ZULU)



Howdy,

I need some info on reloading!!  Anyone got a pet load for 155 AMAX (in .308)?  I'm going on a shoot in a couple of weeks, and want some where to start.  I haven't had much luck with my varget loads so far, so any help would be greatly appreciative.  

On a second note, for those who don't have a huge budget, listen to 'lito and get a stealth, I have shot 2 consecutive, sub .25 MOA groups now with reloads @ 100.

KEN M

Do you have any load info for the 280AI, I built one for my dad, and I wanted to reload it for him.

Thanks in advance.

Mayhem

PS since the email isn't working, my email address is killare@hotmail.com

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
TX, - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 00:23:58 (ZULU)


Could somebody please lend a hand. I am adjusting my trigger on a 700 PSS, I have read the artical by Pablito and have followed it to a tee.( At least I think that I am) I have tried it from the top 3 times, I get a nice light pull at about 24-25 ounces. But no matter what there is always trigger creep before it breaks, I must have something wrong cause it is almost like a 2 stage trigger now, I feel it move a bit to take up then break. How can I clean it up. Should it just break with no take up???  Thanks Keith

Keith Email this member See this member's profile
NJ, USA - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 01:13:33 (ZULU)



Chris,

I have a bud, that post's here occasionally.....

He shot a 6 /22-250,and it smoked......

If memory serves in was like 19 moa @1k...

Like a laser..

Accurate, Percieved recoil, like a .223.

Barrel life...seems like he got around 1100, before it cratered.

A SS Shilen if I remember.....

When the accuracy went, he set it back, and within less than a hundred or so rounds, the chamber chipped.

Typical of SS barrels, that have been work hardened/fatigued, so I was told.

He did not have to concern himself with the wind..LOL

Used 80 gr SBTHP's.( Molied, I think).

Maybe he will see this,and correct me, and give you all the poop.

Best

Alan,

I think I finally woke up, and figured out how to post without having to enter the data 2 times..

Write your msg, and then fill in the blanks..no timing out.....LOL

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 01:22:23 (ZULU)


Joe M;

Take care o yoself over there.

We been fairly quiet here cept for that dang Brazilian Suspicious package thing here in town. Had 2 bomb calls in last couple of days too. Natives all over must be gettin restless.

Took down a large Meth lab a few nights ago. Had about a 500 yard creep in due to low veg and surveilance cameras setup on the place. DEA guys said it was one of the largest in the district in quite some time. No one home though. Seems the drug unit doing counter-surveil missed somefin.  Leastwise, we got some good creepy-crawly practise & busted the thing.

Headin up to Manitoba for black bear hunt next week. Talked into usin one of those 450 Marlins Peter L's always talkin about. Shoots same hole groups unsupported at 50 yards with iron sights. Should be good enough. Spectin a good time.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo Email this member See this member's profile
K Town, WIO, US of A - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 01:43:48 (ZULU)


OK guys, here's more poop on the Leupold LRM3 dials.  I am at this moment looking at a dial labeled "308 Win 175 gr" and when I compare the range marks against the clicks of elevation, and compare this to my NRA highpower log books for 200, 300, & 600 yd elevation for a 175 MK going 2600 fps, the marks match up exactly in yards out to 600.  Then when I compare the dial to the trajectory computed by the Sierra Infinity ballistics software for a 175 MK going 2600 fps, the marks on the dial match exactly out to 1000 yds.  Likewise, the 30-06 dial matches the Sierra Infinity info out to 1000 yds for a 175 MK going 2685 fps.  Next week I shoot a 600 yd match at Camp Pendleton and we'll see how the dial does.

Ted Email this member See this member's profile
San Diego, CA, - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 02:03:37 (ZULU)


Ted,

I was informed of this 2 days ago....fwiw.

"Spoke with a techie........

Axed him about the NEW 175 dial......

I told him, I had heard..that it was gonna be for 175's @ 2685fps..

He said, Nope..........

Made speshull for the military.........2570fps, in METERS"

Could this possibly be the one you have.........must be.

Will await the data..........

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 02:10:15 (ZULU)


Dos Zap,

It'll be a 6mm something,, not sure of the flavor yet.  It has to be something a 8 year old girl can shoot off bags, and something I can easly shoot offhand.

6.5x284, 6.5-06 and similar cartdridge shooters,

Have any of ya'll tried the new V V N560 yet?  I'm curious to see how end users like the double bases/single base mixed "High Energy" powders in the "fag-ish" calibers.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 02:35:36 (ZULU)


Checking in -

Hello all - been out awhile. Enjoyed a good vacation in Lost Wages (ie Las Vegas). Came home to ketchup on chores, etc.

Okay - business side of stuff:

We've setup a new mailserver. We have spam, blacklist, and virus scanning installed. Mike, Marius, several others that I process mail for - man - you dudes are the target of a sh*t load of spam and viruses. The viruses are now stopped at the mailserver. No guarantee that all willl get caught... but it's better than before.

If anyone out there is getting a rejection notice for spam, etc - do what the rejection notice says. It says to contact me at (see the email on teh rejection note). We have cranked up the anti-spam artillery and will occaisionally nail a goodguy...

take care hawgs,

out

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
nokesville, va, USofA - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 02:49:42 (ZULU)


Keith,

Don't feel alone. Have a POS (PSS) just like it and ran into the same problem. No matter what I did, the creep wouldn't go away. Mine needs a new trigger assembly or a new home. (...and I don't want to hear from you bums how SCLE #9,999.5 has the sweetest trigger on the planet....even it if is true ;)))

--

Joe,

Try not to have toooo much fun in the sand. Come back healthy and whole...with some stories. Sure sucks to be away from the family with one in the oven, no less.

--

Coulda swore somebody posted sumpin on a Win 97 scatter-shooter and now its gone. Guess he got embarrassed about the WD-40 thingie ;)))

--

CAS?

My SASS # is 16,XXX. I sure likes the ladies @ those events. Man, CAN they dress, particularly the soiled doves :P It's worth gettin dressed up fer.

--

Mk4

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, God Bless America, United States of America - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 04:33:41 (ZULU)


Keith; answer, no there should be no creep. In the real world you do encounter rifles that will creep in spite of it all. IF you are satisfied the sear is set close enough to the edge or gets unpredictable when you do set it farther out, you may be needing a new assembly. Try buying one of the older ones from somebody on here who has replaced their trigger with a "Jewel" or something. Very few have this problem.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 05:11:36 (ZULU)


I cant find much info about the 300 Remington Ultra Mag any where. How are these things for long range shooting?

Randy Email this member See this member's profile
TAD, TO, BAHRAIN - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 08:43:29 (ZULU)


Ok thanks, Brogers and MK4 for the info, I will sit down and give it another try, Because I am stubborn,

It is very predictable and will break at the same point and weight at least. So if that is it for this trigger Oh well,

Yeah this one is only a few years old like 98 or something, not the quality of the older ones, But it is a starting point for me a learning stick if you will.  -- Keith

Keith Email this member See this member's profile
NJ, USA - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 11:31:53 (ZULU)


CDC wrote: "But Port Arthur isn't on my itinerary".

rotflmao.

It ain't on anybody's itinerary bud ... 'cept maybe the dope dealers out of Houston.

BKS, Port Arthur, Texas

"Where the sewer meets the sea"

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 13:32:01 (ZULU)


Chris...

  I have a pound of VV-560 I tried with my 308. If you want to send me some load data I will try it out and let you know how it does in my "Fag Mag".

  I got it all togeather last night and then pulled the bullets on close to 300rds so I can try to reuse the brass. I had to order a FL die, should be here early next week. The bump die still would not size a case down enough to chamber. I may try to load some of the Hornady brass to break it in with, if it ever quits raining. Over 2.5" just yesterday and its been raining most of the week.

 I got tossed off my long range but found another spot just about a mile away so have to move all my steel and redo all my range stakes. This has been a bad spring for shooting. I haven't been out for nealy 3 weeks because of rain and wind.

Two Shoes..

 From the sounds of it I don't think that was a 6-250. They are not a hotrod by any means. I would guess them in the 2900 to 2950 range with the 107s. I have seen data for 3000fps but thats pushing it. These rifles are good for a min of 4000rds from the guys who use them. 19MOA at 1000yds is a real screamer and would be a barrel burner for sure. Probably more like a 6-284.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 14:50:33 (ZULU)


'Lito and anyone else from CT:

My Dad lives in New Milford and is having trouble finding a range in his area.  Do you know of anything in that area of CT?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve Burris Email this member See this member's profile
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 15:01:58 (ZULU)


Steve,

Finding long distance range is a problem here.....VERY hard to find a range beyond 100 or 200 yds.  He will probably need to visit the Blue Trails public range in Wallingford.  Sorry, I don't have the telephone number handy.  I found a small farm and got the OK for about 200 yds.  Maybe ole Pablito can hook him up with something on the south side of the state!

Les

Les Email this member See this member's profile
Canton, CT, USA - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 15:32:49 (ZULU)


Keith in NJ

Just my two cents worth but you are trying to set you Rem. trigger too light. They get a little unsafe under 2.5#!!

Lito

You are right about one thing about the 6mm BR there are to many reamer specs. out there but other than that it is a super cal. and will shoot one hole with almost any load.

Again just my two cents worth.

Jerry

Jerry Rice Email this member See this member's profile
American Canyon, CA, USA - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 15:55:54 (ZULU)


Brian: You ain't just whistling Dixie, brother! Now that I no longer am employed by an oil company with a refinery in Port Arthur, the closest I get is driving through Beaumont on the way to New Awlins.

Writer Oakley Hall once described Slidell, Louisiana as a place where "...no two alligators ever lasted a summer." P.A. same same.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 16:54:04 (ZULU)


PAT,

Said, "

He shot a 22-250,( your right, it was a .22 cal 80 gr, moly),and it smoked......".

Thanks for pointing it out.......

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 16:59:10 (ZULU)


Ditto on Jerry's 2 cents but when you are finished before you loc tite the screws turn the barrel down on something soft and drop the bolt severely with no round or case in the chamber of course. Do this several times to assure yourself it will not fall through actions of the bolt.  48 oz is a good trigger for a 700. Adjust the over-travel so that you don't feel anymovement after the sear drops but not too close as that may make for problems during extreme weather. This is probably in the Lito' data already but just to be sure.

300 Ultra Mag. ? Gosh I thought you'd never ask. This is one shit kicking cartridge and with about 95 to 100 grains or so it will get out there. It's no .338 but it's not coming in crew served rifles either.

It has a tendency to wind up in your eye socket to be damn careful when you first use it and get a scope with adequate strength and eye relief. We are testing the Sheperd system, famous for short eye relief but...(700 Sendero). (don't say "Sheperd" around here:) on one. So far so good. There has been no problems. Another has a (now get this). Tasco Sniper, on it."700 PSS". (BSA chinese made actually about a 79 dollar mil dot scope). So far no failure but.... we are standing by with a bucket to catch it in. Watch how you shoot it off bipods it will take out your collar bone. The bone doctors love this thing. * special note; I do not advocate "cheap" scopes, by damn, but we do test em to see which is the best and what is wrong with them. I love Leupold! but there are alternatives these days that need looked into.

Overall this 300RUM is a beautiful piece of work and kicks anything in the 30 class a new one as far as I am concerned. IMR says use IMR 4350 and Hodgedon says Retumbo. Whats that other????? 1000 I believe. It seems to work the best. IF you don't mind headaches it's a winner.

But there is a special SC $5 fine for whinning when this thing blacks your eye.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 17:03:46 (ZULU)


Lito,

OK you convinced me on the 'M' die and taper die, BUT which taper die is betterer?  I see both Lyman and Lee make em.  Also how do you set the taper die up?  I take it you just want to remove the enlarged mouth caused by the 'M' die.  Or will all this become obvious when I read the instructions? ;-)

All the Best

Jon

P.S. How does Hornady 300WM brass rate?  I'll be get some shortly from work and was wondering if its worth reloading.

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 17:31:01 (ZULU)


'lito -

I sent you an email.  No attachments.

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 17:35:52 (ZULU)


Jon - I ordered a taper crimper from Dillon, as I was ordering something else from them. I suspect there's not much difference in them. As I understand the concept, you have it right - set the taper crimper up to just remove the slight flare created by the "M" die. I just cranked mine down until the neck measured the same at the very top, where it had been flared, as it did below. There I stopped, as I did not want to introduce any more constriction in the neck than already existed. Works like a bandit, and takes VERY little handle pressure to do the crimp.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 18:04:01 (ZULU)


Keith in NJ. Check ebay for Rem700 triggers if you are looking to replace yours.  I just ran a search and there are about six complete trigger assemblies for sale.  I bought two triggers from there last year for $10 and $16.  Both brand new.  The people that sold them thought they had to buy an after-market trigger to get the pull weight they wanted.

Keith in WV.

Keith Email this member See this member's profile
North Central, WV, - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 19:00:04 (ZULU)


Hidey ho good neighbors..

Two Shoes,

<<Barrel life...seems like he got around 1100, before it cratered.

A SS Shilen if I remember.....>>

I've heard Shilen uses shallow grooves(damn good idea, ha)..Never measured their bores myself..

<<When the accuracy went, he set it back, and within less than a hundred or so rounds, the chamber chipped.>>

eh?  Chamber, or just past the leade?  A land give out?

<<Typical of SS barrels, that have been work hardened/fatigued, so I was told.>>

Yeah, them buttonheads can really give the steel a workout...Too much excitement for me.....I'm more of a casual barrelmaker, no stress, hahah..

later, got to watch pipes n' drums, who are assembling in front of me hoose as I type!!

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 19:20:30 (ZULU)


Keith. (in Joisey)...

If you have too muc trigger travel, you slowly screw in the "Trigger engagement screw", until it lits go... then back it off a little, and try it.

Keep in mind that you may still "feel some creep" in the trigger when you pull it. I have 2 ounce triggers on several of my rifles, and I can feel them creep when I pull them, and can stop part way through the draw.  The more practiced a shooter you are, the more difficult it is to get a trigger that is "perfect" ;)

If you can't live with the factory trigger, don't waste your time and money on a timney or other cheepie... get a three lever "Jewel" and don't look back.

-

Ted...

Please send me the mark-ups on that 175 cam... like

1 = 0

2 = 2

3 = 5

4 = 8

5 = 13... etc.

I need the data.

-

MK4...

Naw, I didn't make the M97 scatter-shooter thing gone.  It probably went to the archives.  THe WD-40 went into it back in the days wen I belived in the Easter Bunny (When the gun was new!) HA!!.

I never washed out the WD-40, cuz I considered the gun one of my non-shooters, and it has stayed in the case for 30 years.

It's still soakin' :((

-

Steve Burris...

Tell your dad that there is "Blue Trails Range", in Wallingford, CT.

This is the old Lyman Gunsight range, still owned by David Lyman.  It's a good range, and has a gunshop and restuarant there too.

-

Les...

Any Woodchucks on that farm??

-

Port Arthur...

Dang, all you Texas coasties are makin' me home sick.  Spent a year workin' at Spindle Top when I was young and dumb (now I ain't young).

-

Jerry Rice...

It IS a very good cartridge.

-

Jon B...

I use the Redding, cuz it's so nicely finished... but I guess all of them are OK.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 19:52:15 (ZULU)


Pat,

Did your smith tight neck it or small body the chamber?  It sounds like maybe you've ended up with one of the DDS dies for Winchester brass.  Your primer pockets will last forever, but the neck is a .290", requiring neck turning.  Say it ain't so brother!!

The last reamer I used was one of the HardRock shooters.  It went .297" neck with a .498" body.  It works great, but it is a tad tight on HS.  Not a problem really, I just have to FL size after the 2nd firing or the bolt is hard to lift through the second stage.  The reamer does cause a small doughnut after repeated firings, but it hasn't caused a problem, and a 2 second inside ream fixed the problem permanantly.  It may just be this reamer though, as other use this spec (Norma) and don't have to de-dougnut the necks.

Hornady brass??  How do you like it so far.  It looked rough to me, but Bob Crone swears by it, so it must be good.  I think he had to back the load off some, but really likes the brass.  Very soft though, and guys with less than mirror polished chambers were breaking extractors.  I traded 50 new cases for 80 142SMK's ;))

Load data for N560,,,, http://www.vihtavuori.fi/USAguide.pdf .  Page 20 of 64.  I noticed they didn't list the barrel length or twist in the loading manual.  Tisk, Tisk.... And they used the 139 Sceners,, but I don't figure there's much difference between them and the 142SMK.

The 6/22-250 reamer I though he owned was reneted from Reamerreantals.com.  Guess for $30,, why not.  If I like it I can always buy one later.  I'm going to have a either Clymers of Dave Kiff cut me a custom 6.5x284 to the above specs  when I order my replacemnet barrels.  I might just as well drop the $150 and keep it on hand.

Jerry Rice,

Have you shot the 6/22-250's at all, and if so,, what is your impresion.  Good to see you stopping in man.  Hope all is well in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia :)  

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 20:29:06 (ZULU)


Sgt Steven Gaffney...

...who contact me about not being able to post, please contact me via this address, since the mail I sent bounced back to me.

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 20:30:40 (ZULU)



Looking for a suggested starting load for the following. Anyone got a load that is close?

22" barrel in 1:8 twist, AR platform

.223 69 grain sierra

Target Velocity 3000 fps

LC case, Rem standard primer

Varget

-----------------------------

.223 69 grain sierra

Target Velocity 3000 fps

LC case, Rem standard primer

Benchmark

NOTE - the hodgden website is down... wonder why?

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 20:42:52 (ZULU)


Hey Guys!!!!

Well, I just got word from my FFL that SCLE #35 has come in.  The hard part is gonna be waiting til Thursday to go pick it up. Anyway, this is such a noob quesiton, I'm almost embarrassed to ask, but here goes....

Now I understand that the LR M3 doesn't come with any directions.  Can anyone here uhhhh....enlighten me on how to zero/sight-in/install BDC dials correctly??

Does Loopie have directions and just not send them?  I mean it does sound like something they'd do, after all they don't ship the most popular dial.  Mebbe if'n I get any replies they could be posted under "hot tips" or sumfin' for all the other FNG's?

Later,

Rich S

Rich S. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 20:56:03 (ZULU)


medicjim,

You have incoming e-mail.  No attachments.  Question re emer. med.

Don

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 21:00:06 (ZULU)


Rich,

Just pull the turret caps off and zero it just like a normal scope.  The actual turrets have coin slots to zero with.  When you get it dialed it at 100, put the caps back on with "0" moa mark over the little white dots and tighten the hex head screws.

If you come out a little high or low at 100, I'd err on the side of high.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 21:01:33 (ZULU)


Rich S.

Remove the "cam".  Center the windage knob, then the elev.  Bore sight it.  Sight it in at 100 yds.  Put cam back on with "0" on the cam at the hash mark.  Assuming you're going with the '06 cam.  develop a 175 SMK load at 2685 fps and rezero. Shoot at various ranges to verify.

Did I miss anything guys?

Don

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 21:05:24 (ZULU)


Chris,

I got some 6.5-284 norma data on the N560 from VV..

Boolit is 139 gr Lapua Scenar

79.0mm COL (3.11")

Powder N560, starting load 50.6gr@850m/s(2788fps), max load 54.0gr@892m/s(2926fps)

tested in 625mm barrel(24"), 1-8.5" twist

and I notice they are stuffing more powder behind their coated scenars, about 1 grain over their uncoated max load...

Pat,

if you have your fag mag reamer specs, could you send me the dope?  We just got a reamer in from Kiff, would like to compare...  

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 21:07:10 (ZULU)



Rich S...

>"Now I understand that the LR M3 doesn't come with any directions."<

Rich... you don't get the instructions, until AFTER you get the secret handshake... or you can just sell it to someone that needs it;).

-

By the way... all youz M3 guys remember that to set the focus (Parallax), you turn the side dial all the way COUNTER CLOCKWISE til it stops (the big dot end on the M3-LR, and the infinity end on the MK4-M3), then go to the setting you want... if you do it from the other end, or from somewhere in the middle, you can loose focus (and GET Parallax errors) after the gun recoils.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 21:33:30 (ZULU)


LINDY: Hey man, next time you get this way, hit me on the hip (pager) 409.726.4037 ... lunch is on me.

PAT: OR any of you guys, how much dealings ya'll had with Dave Lauck at D&L Sports?

He just sent me a 700 w/ 20" bbl in one of his MR30 stocks with a nightforce 5.5-22/speed turret on top. Wants me to wring it out and do a write up. You could put a body in the case he shipped it in.

I like the fella.

later homeys.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 22:02:36 (ZULU)


Testing an account

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 22:15:04 (ZULU)


Rich S:  M3 tip:  The elevation ajustments are 1 min.  If you only want 1/2, park it half-way.  If they included instructions they would tell a guy that.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 9, 2003, at 22:54:47 (ZULU)


this sucks;  hostage situation at case western reserve university in cleveland. newsman all over the place rumors are thick. police and ems on scene. shots fired. some wounded. stay ttuned.

Stan Caniglia Email this member See this member's profile
ohio, - Friday, May 9, 2003, at 22:57:51 (ZULU)



Brian: You're on, bud, but I'll wrestle you for the check.

Re: Case Western hostage situation. Did you ever wonder if the reason that so many shootings occur on school campuses and government office buildings is because those are places where law-abiding citizens are forbidden to carry weapons to defend themselves, insuring criminals of a victim-rich environment? If you haven't had that thought, perhaps now would be a good time.

Then consider this. In England, 59 percent of burglaries occur in homes where the residents are at home, but they have few or no guns, and cannot legally defend themselves by using a gun, if they have one, against a criminal unless the criminal ALSO has a gun. If they shoot and kill a criminal breaking in who turns out not to have a gun, they are charged with murder, and face much longer prison sentences than such burglars do.

In the United States, only 13 percent of burglaries occur to occupied residences, because the residents are much more likely to be armed and legally able to use lethal force to defend themselves against intruders.

Interesting difference.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 00:25:07 (ZULU)


Marius,thank you for your patience and guidance.

Scott

Scott S Email this member See this member's profile
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 00:34:54 (ZULU)


Lindy,

Ever seem to notice that these type issues just SEEM to crop up, when the Media, and the  Demoncrats are hyping gun control, in one fashion or another??.

I have seen this become a TREND, over the past 10-12 years...

Personally, I think it should be mandatory that anyone that opens up at a school, public place, be tried, and summarily shot( of course if they are judged guilty, and or not insane).

Because if they are NOT insane, then they are cowardly scum, and do not deserve to suck the same air as we do......

You cannot believe how bad this pisses me off......#@#&*$(#*#&$!

Two Mad Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 02:20:09 (ZULU)


120 sucked out of a cargo plane at 33,000 feet.

Passengers who remained on board were said to be traumatized.

Well, no s**t.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 02:36:35 (ZULU)


CDC...

>"Rich S:  M3 tip:  The elevation ajustments are 1 min.  If you only want 1/2, park it half-way.  If they included instructions they would tell a guy that."<

AW Mang... he don't know the secret handshake yet ;)

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 02:42:00 (ZULU)


Gents,

Brian, I've had past dealings with Dave Lauck, at D & L. He enjoys a good reputation and all my dealings (though small) have been "on time, on target".

While I don't agree with some of his designs, etc., his products are good.

Rifles with "roll-bars" are not my thing...

Dave hosts a west coast sniper challenge once a year. Well attended.

I would give him a solid "A" based on my experiences.

JR, The chamber on my Chandler 6.5 X .284 was cut with a Kiff Reamer. That reamer was designed by Dave in conjunction with Black Hills Ammunition for their 142 grain Sierra Matchking/Norma Diamond Line Load. I have the reamer and factory ammo from the first run.

It is designed for an OAL of 2.98".

No wonder it shoots Sierra's so wonderfully.

I believe I have the original specs for the Norma brass and possibly the loaded round. Will have to get it from the shop tomorrow. Send me a fax number and I'll get it to you.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 03:46:32 (ZULU)


'Lito,

Is that the handshake that ends with the recitation of "boogity boogity HEY!!!!" while wearing a Pink Feather Boa?

One more further sorta related topic (deals with SCLE).  Since I haven't heard from Brack yet (Brack, you there man?) I'm thinking of gittin some replacement foam for my Pelican 1750.  I look on Pelican's site and just about soil myself.  $85 for freakin' FOAM?!?!?  Youse guys know any better sources or solutions?

Later,

Rich

RichS. Email this member See this member's profile
Bal'mer, MD, - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 04:04:37 (ZULU)


Well, I got SCLE #50 to the range yesterday. Lindy met me there and kindly  brought some GMM 175's and his chronograph. I had some Winchester 150 powerpoints for breaking it in. It took 4 rounds to get zeroed at 100 yards, cleaning after each shot. It was getting easier to get the copper out after the fourth shot but it was still there a little.                                              

I couldn't stand all that cleaning in between shots and had to shoot a 3 shot group. Is there really anybody that actually goes through the whole breakin procedure, it was killing me? Anyway the first 3 shot group round count 5,6,and 7 at 100 yards with the GMM 175's came in at .65" thats including the CCB shot. velocity was 2655, 2671, and 2688 in that order. Cleaned the barrel and shot another 3 shot group. rounds 8,9, and 10. came in at .48" with CCB right in the middle of the group. velocity was 2696, 2688, and 2699 in that order. I cleaned the barrel and let Lindy shoot a 5 shot group, rounds 11-15, velocities were 2661,2703,2710,2704,2671, group size was .82" We clocked the powerpoints and they came in at around 2880 fps and grouped around 1.8 moa

 I put a Leupold 4.5x14x40 on it. It has one inch rings so I bought a set of ring reducers from George when he shipped the rifle to me. Mike Miller told me the Military uses the ring reducers so I wasn't worried about accuracy suffering. The above groups prove that out pretty well I think.

what a rifle, I can't tell you guys how happy I am with this thing. For anybody who is thinking of having George Gardner and his guys build you a rifle GO FOR IT you won't be disappointed.

Oh yeah MK4 the trigger is awesome!!

Lindy, thanks for the help, I wouldn't have had a clue how fast the rounds were going or how accurate the rifle is if you hadn't volunteered your chrono and had the 175's to put through it.

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
Alvin, Tx, USA - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 04:05:48 (ZULU)



CDC wrote: "120 sucked out of a cargo plane at 33,000 feet.

Passengers who remained on board were said to be traumatized.

Well, no s**t".

ROTFLMAO ! Ya kill me.

SIR WES: "Rifles with "roll-bars" are not my thing ..." lol

Yeah Wes, I spoke with him about that very thing today. He said that is the biggest complaint he gets on his sticks but once folks try it they like it.

His thinking is that we, snipers (his guys) have to carry everything they will need when they deploy and the rifle IS heavy.

Dave says it protects the rifle/scope, is handy for attaching your wind meter to, a poncho or veil does not interfere with the working of the action when draped over it, and the handle makes it easier to carry on long humps. Gotta agree with him on those points.

It is a beast though. Rappelling with it would be an experience as would snap shooting. I damn sure wouldn't want to try and swim it.

We, however, don't do much of those things real world. It's usually hump your stuff near or far, get in position and wait.

It ain't a pretty thing either but I guess pretty is as pretty does.

That's all I have to say about that ...

He told me his guys shoot EVERY DAY. Just 20 min. to confirm zeros but each cop has a range in his district. Must be nice ... city boy snipers can't do that.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 04:27:31 (ZULU)



Mike - Undude

incoming on your AOL addy - no attatchments RE: Rooskie bino Range Finder values

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 04:42:16 (ZULU)


Tony - it was entirely my pleasure, and I got to shoot your new rifle, which is awesome! I'm going to work up some loads in both 168s and 175s in my new Lapua brass, and we'll stretch for some distance next week or whenever you're free. With my one in twelve barrel, I can't go any heavier than the 175s, but if you want to try something heavier, I'll load 'em if you supply the bullets.

Shoes: I had the same thoughts. With talk in the press this week about the extension of the "assault weapons" ban, it seems awfully coincidental...

Remember - you're not paranoid if they're really out to get you, and they are.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 04:54:33 (ZULU)


Lindy,

Can't go heavier with your 1-12??.

Sure you can, you can go 190's, and it will shoot fine, just not as good as a 1-10.

I couldn't shoot the difference, but others could for sure.

Matter o fact, I have shot some of my best groups EVER out of a 1-12 M40A1, several groups w/180SBTHP's, into .2's......5 rounds.

Paranoid, yeah.....like Alan Arkin said...in "Catch 22".

Tony, congrats...........((:

I hear the SCLE's are cleaning up like UNbelievable, no copper after 5 rounds!!!..

I cannot imagine that, those Rock 5R barrels must be the cats meeow...!!!!!!

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 05:09:01 (ZULU)



Shoes: When you say it will shoot fine with 190's, do you mean better at 1K than with 175's?

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 05:25:33 (ZULU)


Two Shoes,

The 308 Win 175 gr LRM3 dial shipped to me is marked "x100 yds" and the tech I spoke to at Leupold said the dial for 175s could be had in yards and meters.  The markings on the dial say "x100 yds" and then have the numbers 1 through 11 as you go around the dial

'lito

the markings on this dial are as follows (some of the range marks fall between clicks):

The first number is the top marking, the second number is the corresponding click on the bottom number scale.

1-0

2- 2

3-5

4-8.5

5-12

6-16.5

7-21.5

8-27

9-33.5

10-40

11-48.5

I hope this info helps.  It still seems that every person on this board who has called leupold has gotten a different answer.

Ted Email this member See this member's profile
San Diego, CA, - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 05:49:07 (ZULU)


Brian,

I am sure the MR700 will shoot groups the size of a nickel. Let us all know how it does.  I was up in Gillette a couple of days ago to do some load testing on the 300 RUM that Dave built for me.  Yes, it is a beast of a rifle but that is the way I like them - built tough and made to hold zero no matter what.  I even dropped the Larue target at 1800 yds with it.  The best rifle I have ever shot.  Once you shoot one you could care less what the heck it looks like - it just plain ol' shoots great.

BTW - Who is going to shoot in Dave's match this coming year???  I'm going, who's in???

Tony V.

Tony V Email this member See this member's profile
Denver, CO, - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 06:44:49 (ZULU)


Brian, my experience with red heads is that you should give em what they ask for..whatever it is.

Jon and JR....u won't believe this, but the kebab woman was in the window yesterday, jugs out and strumming her own hairy banjo for all ( especialy me) to see..now if that bitch isn't gagging for it i dunno what is.( no Shabba wasn't tempted)

Well ive been home on some more DIY jobs, got loads done at the house this week this week, Geoff(my ex royalmarine mate) managed to get a morning on the Brit army 300m range, had some fun, checked out the 30-06 some more, it seems to want a few rounds down the barrel to foul it a little before it turns in best performance. Geoff was all over the shop with his 270, untill i suggested he check the damn scope screws, sure enough the damn screws on the arse end where loose, (standard type base/rings)got that tightened up and the thing was back to normal.The Garrison saw the first troops returning back from Iraq this week, the guys all seem to have lost LOTS of weight.Everything in top gear getting ready for a royal visitor next week, troops be painting the pavements white and the grass green i suppose.

Kettner, one of the 2 big shooting/hunting and out door retailers( like Cabela's)in Germany have gone bankrupt this last week, My mate with the shop says that if the current trend continues he will be going same way by the end of the year, Businesses going bankrupt here since the introduction of the Euro are up by 46% when compared to the year before the euro.

This may be in bad taste, but i see the Congolise army have coined a new acronmy. HANO as apposed to HALO.

French soldier goes to the med centre. Says to the Doc, "I'm constantly in pain". Doc says "where?", Soldier prods his leg with his finger, then his arm then his stomach and then his ass and says "here and here and here, see, it hurts terribly all over where i prod my self. The Doc says" Hmm, let me try" and inturn prods the young froggy squaddie with his finger.Arm, no pain, leg , no pain, no pain any where. With a look of enlightenment on his face the Soldier exclaims "Doctor, Doctor.. you healed me, its a miracle!!" Doc says, "Steady on son, you got a broken finger".

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 07:14:19 (ZULU)



Once all the dust settles, maybe we could you collect all of the M3 & M3LR info and give it (or sell it) to Leupold for their tech support to read? (Or better yet, post it again in the FNG corner where I can save it to a Word doc!)

I purchased two LRM3 scopes with my SC Rifle, and promptly sent the .223 cams in to Leupold for an exchange along with two MK 4 M3 .223 cams, (I needed a couple of those as well for other scopes). I included a very detailed type written letter clarifying my request.

They sent me the LRM3 30-06 cams right away along with the MK4 3-06 cams. Unfortunately the MK 4 cams that Leupold sent were the ones that needed to be turned counter clockwise to increase the elevation and I need the ones that went clockwise.

Does anybody need  a Mark 4 M3 30-06 cam that increase the elevation when you turn it counter clockwise? Let me know, I will give them to you.

When I called them up and spoke to tech support, they said that they didn't have any more of what I needed, but that I could either use what they sent, or I could also call Kenton Industries. The person I spoke to did commit to looking around for what I needed, and would call me even if her search were unproductive.

She called me the next day and stated that she was successful, and that they were already sent along with my original cams.

I had to make a couple of calls, but I was rather impressed with the prompt customer support.

Rich S: Hang in there for Brack to call you back, or go ahead and call Starlight directly at (919) 965-8643 or (877) 782-7544.

Starlight cases are great for flying with your rifles. I have three of them, and they all have taken abuse, and keep working.  I will be shoving two of George's rifles and .45 into one of them for my trip out to Badlands. Perhaps when I miss I can blame it on the baggage handlers?

I just got an Oehler 35 Chronograph via the friendly UPS guy today, but ran out of time to try it at the range. This device seems very well made, and came with great directions! I read about the Oehler here, and I am delighted that I finally went for it and bought one.

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
CA - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 07:26:50 (ZULU)


Thanks for the info on the taper crimp guys.  Guess I'll take a look at the Redding; may as well have a matching set, eh?

Pete, where you been?  You get my e-mails?  Thought you may have become a permanent fixture to a DIY project.  Knew you wouldn't be missing long though.  I mean how well could a woman lay a patio, especially over your lardy arse ;-)

Jon

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 10:45:09 (ZULU)


re: eval of DSI wind reader

If you're going to write it up, here are some questions that come to mind.  This is *not* a complete possible list.  I have used a lot of electronic gadgets, so that is the orientation of some of the questions.  I'm sure 'Lito could come up with a better list, but since he hasn't chimed in yet, I'll get the ball rolling.

- Under what conditions is the product expected give an accurate reading?

 - Full sunlight (distinct shadows)

 - Hazy overcast (indistinct shadows)

 - heavy overcast (no shadows)

 - No sunlight but artificial illumination

 - raining?

 - snowing?

 - fog?

 - blowing dust?

- Is wind speed available in only one or multiple units?

 - MPH, feet/second, kilometer/hour, meters/second?

- Nominal ambient temperature range for equipment operation?

- Nominal ambient temperature range for equipment storage?

- Are there altitude restrictions for operation or storage of the unit?

- If it a production unit as opposed to a pre-production prototype

 - Dimensions

 - Weight

 - battery requirements

 - expected battery life under normal usage

 - color of outer enclosure visible when in operation.

- Is more than one outer enclosure color available from the vendor,

 and/or is the color of the outer enclosure considered field changable (probably by careful painting?)

- Does the product require a dedicated optic, or is the optic usable with the product removed?

- Does the product require a specific optic, or will it function with any compatible unit that meets certain mechanical and performance specification?

- Does the product require calibration?

 - Is the unit user calibratable or must it be done at a mfgr depot?

 - How often does the unit need to be calibrated?

- Is the unit considered field repairable, or must it be returned to a vendor facility for rework under all circumstances?

- Would technical drawings be available to purchasers to permit their own technicians to repair, or is the unit being supplied as a "black box"?

- Is the unit water resistant, waterproof or submersible?

 - If submersible, to what depth is it rated?

- If product is not a sealed unit, how much problem would

 fine dust induce?

- How resistant is the unit to mechanical shock?

 - From what height could it be dropped and still be expected

   to perform to original specifications?

- How easy is it to clean the optical interface between the scope

 and the detector assembly?

- Is there recommended preventive maintenance, or just cleaning and testing "as needed"?

- If a computer is required for operation of the product

 - Can the computer be user supplied provided it meets certain specifications, or is purchase of computer from vendor required?

 - What are the minimum specifications for a user-supplied computer for this application?

 - In what formats is the software available?

   - floppy disk

   - CDROM

   - DVDROM

   - memory card

 - Is the software protected by a copy protection/licensing scheme?

   - If so, what is the licensing procedure to enable the software?

   - Does the licensing scheme provide for installing the software

     on a replacment computer if the first unit is unavailable and not running the software (typically because of logistics, damage,

loss, theft, etc).

   - What is the procedure if the user loses/misplaces their activation key information and needs to install the software on a replacment computer?

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 13:11:41 (ZULU)


Rod....Jeeze....How about does it work?  ;-)

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 13:31:16 (ZULU)


Scored a Kestrel 4000 in like new condition for $190 shipped. Now what the heck do I do with it? So many functions, so few brain cells to comprehend the instructions!

It's Saturday and the sun is actually shining. Range time in a couple of hours.

Some good matches coming up at Butner:

http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/Frames/Frame_Schedule.htm

A5 Stocks......Anyone have a review yet?

Have to get some new shooting glasses, but am going to have to have a prescription this time. Any suggestions?

Rod and reel repair business is in the dumper. Too much disposable junk on the market and not worth fixing I reckon. Why is it so hard to give up a business after almost 20 years, even though you know it's time?

You folks in tornado alley keep your heads down.

Time to pack for the range, Bolt out!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 13:47:55 (ZULU)


Bolt: There's an A5 review right here on SC by our own USSR:

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/McMillan_A-5_Stock.asp

Or click on my name.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 14:20:21 (ZULU)


'lito:

I had copied a long explaination that you wrote from off the roster from quite a while ago.  It was about the what and why of scopes.  It also had a couple of pages about setting up scopes and dealing with parallex.  In it you talked about the M-3 LR's and that all adjustments of the "side focus" ( after being set ) should be done from the infinity end of the dial.  Turn past infinity to the stop then back to the setting you want.  

Now I am confused because your last post states that the adjustments should be made from the big dot end of the dial which is the opposite from the infinity end.

I don't have the paper in front of me and I can't find it in the archives but I just read again yesterday and I am pretty sure that is what it said.

Would you clarify for me?

And guys....this is why I put up with the BS ( mine included sometimes ) that happens here.  There is a HUGE amount of info available here that we would not be able to get otherwise.  Like that paper Pablito wrote.  I have a 3 ring binder full of things like that which I copied off of this site.  It's great reference stuff and I use it all the time.  From ballistic data to setting up scopes to why anybody would spell "chilie", "chili".  Ok, so some of it isn't that important, but it's still good to know it exists.

Oh, and I got off the phone with Leupold yesterday.  They are holding pretty tight about not giving away a fourth cam.  They will still trade one of the other ones if you send it in but three is all you are going to get.

S&B looking better and better.....

Naven

Rich Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 14:27:42 (ZULU)


Bolt;

Dude, don't pack it in all togther.  You did a great job on my reels and I don't have anybody local who can help me out.  Actually, I understand what you are talking about.  I just hate to see you dump it.

Naven

Rich Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 14:31:42 (ZULU)



Manly Navy Man, armed with a pistol (from nationalmatchus.com site):

"Guess y'all should know about CDR Thomas, USN (ret)'s background:

From: Bart Bobbitt <bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com>

Subject: Combat Experience w/.45 ACP

Oft times, comments on this net are about GYSGT Carlos Hathcock's sniping adventures in Vietnam. Here's one that very few know about, but is probably just as good as far as accuracy during combat is concerned.

A Navy SEAL Team was returning from a mission over North Vietnam in a chopper when it got hit pretty bad. The pilot and one crew member were killed and the copilot was wounded. Going into autorotation, the copilot managed to set the chopper down in a clearing. After landing, a few rounds of enemy fire were starting to come in. Seems the M60s were also damaged beyond use by the crash landing and initial RPG hit, the only M16 fell out on the way down.

The only firearms left was M1911s.

The remaining crew member was carrying a match conditioned M1911 and had a few boxes of ammo. As more enemy small arms fire started coming in, the copilot and crew member also noted that the VC were coming out of the jungle and approaching them; shooting as they came. The crew member took out his .45 and took careful aim as he shot at each attacking VC. About 30 minutes later it was all over. Between reloading magazines and radioing for rescue, the copilot was pretty busy, but a rescue chopper finally arrived on the scene.

As the rescue chopper came in and landed, its crew noticed a lot of dead VC laying around. The downed helo's remaining crew were picked up and on their way out, they counted the dead VC; 37 in all. Their distances from the downed  helo were from 3 to about 150 yards; all shot by the crew member with his M1911 .45 ACP. About 80 rounds were fired by Petty Officer R.J. Thomas, a member of the USN Rifle and Pistol Team.

Petty Officer Thomas was recommended for the Congressional Medal of Honor, but by the time the recommendation got all the way up through the chain of command, the recognition was reduced to the Navy Cross.

This incident has been cited this as the only known of example of top-level combat marksmanship since SGT Alvin York's escapades in WWI. "

============

Unplugging the machine tomorrow night.  Will come back up on the net after we get to Benning.

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 15:28:40 (ZULU)



Anecdotal AAR info from Iraqi Freedom Marine 1SG. Extracted from: http://www.snipersparadise.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=001111;p=1#000002 

Author Topic: USMC Lessons Learned from Iraq [Long but very informative...] posted 05-07-2003 20:47                       

--------------------------------------------------

Hey Everyone,

I found this posted over at Tactical Forums. I am not familiar with the poster, or the accuracy of his statements, but I thought others might find it interesting. At the very least, it's thought provoking...Unless your like Alf, and like to listen to the sound of the microwave hummmmmmmmmmmmm...

Tactical Forums: Church of the Tactical Truth; USMC Lessons Learned From Iraq

quote:

--------------------------------------------------

All,

Just received an UNCLASS report from a Marine Corps Systems Command Liaison Team in Iraq. The team consisted of three officers looking into the performance of various pieces of kit from comms to meds. They are very clear that their sample size was limited and thus their data need to be taken with a grain of salt. Still, I thought what they had to say might be of interest to some on this board. The report is about 15 pages so I’ve tried to just cut out some gems. Please forgive the length. If the moderators think it’s inappropriate, please tell me and I’ll cut it down.

//////////////////////////////////

AN/PVS- 14 Night Vision Equipment ~ “Great piece of gear, need more.” Some infantry units have one per man, (combined AN/PVS-14 and AN/PVS-7 assets), others, one per squad. Operators are asking to have one set of Night Vision Goggles (NVG’s) per fire team; one per man is preferred. Units who received the M16A4 with ACOG scope/site would like to mount the NVG in front of the ACOG to give them a night shooting capability. For those who did this, they found the capability worked well. Some units couldn’t mount the AN/PVS-14 on the 1913 RAIL (unknown if they had a different model, were missing parts, or lacked training). They taped the NVG on and had limited success. Actual mounting would be better.

Long Range Thermal Imager (SOPHIE) ~ Operators were amazed by the capability. They would like more of the capability but would like to see it in a smaller and lighter package that is vehicle mountable and stabilized. Operators needed more extensive training. They didn’t really know what they were seeing.

AN-PAS 13 Thermal Weapon Site ~ “Amazing, need more.” Many operators were able to see clearly to “10+ kilometers” under good conditions. In mild dust, they were also impressed since they could see “almost as far, 8+.” Most reports were that they worked very well in all but the most extreme dust storms. Highlighted the need for thermal AFVID USMC wide! If PAS-13 gets wide distribution, infantry units will need rigorous AFVID THERMAL training. Currently, Tanks, LAV, Tow, and Air train to such standards. The proliferation of numerous hand held thermal devices without proper training could prove problematic. In addition, infrared can be viewed. Passing lanes proved problematic for some LAR vehicles that relied on thermals. Passives had to be used to spot IR chem.-lights. Thermal chem.-lights or beacons can prove costly.

AN/PVS 17 B and C ~ “Great gear, need more” across the board. Operators impressed with clarity and ability to ID targets. Operators particularly liked red dot reticule for point and shoot capability.

M16A4 with associated combat optic (ACOG 4x), the West Coast’s SAM Rifle ~ All interviewed were extremely pleased with the performance and felt it “answered the mail” for the role of the Squad Advanced Marksman (SAM). All said the fixed 4-power ACOG sight that was included was the perfect solution. It gave them the ability to identify targets at distance, under poor conditions, and maintained ability to quickly acquire the target in the close in (MOUT/room clearing) environment. As above, many “stacked” it with the AN/PVS-14 to get a true night capability. No Marines present in interviews knew of any situation where the shooter could shoot the gun to its full capability or outshoot it. Interviewees included STA platoon leadership and members who are school trained MOS 8541 Snipers. They saw no need for the accuracy and expense involved in the version being built for the “East Coast” SAM Rifle by Precision Weapons Section (PWS), WTBN, Quantico. The standard M16A4 with issued optic more than satisfied their requirements.

Distribution among battalions varied. One battalion received (6), one went to each of the three line companies and three to STA Platoon for the spotters. Other battalions received one per rifle squad.

Regular M16A4’s, no optic, were sent over to theatre to replace M16A2’s. However, they arrived too late to be distributed and BZO’d prior to start of the war. These weapons remained in storage in Kuwait.

M4 Carbine ~ Many Marines commented on desire for the shorter weapon vice the longer M16’s. They say that it would have definitely been better in the urban environment because of the confined spaces. Since most of the operators were operating from a vehicle platform, the smaller weapon would have helped tremendously for mounting and dismounting.

There were numerous comments that the M16 is too long and cumbersome in the urban fight. Several Marines even opted to use the AK-47s that had been captured from Iraqi weapons caches. Others were trading the rifle for pistols to go into buildings to allow mobility in confined spaces.

There has been a push to get M-4’s to crewmen of the mechanized vehicles, LAR in particular. The distribution needs to include LAR, AAV’s, Tanks, Motor Transportation, and any other units that may have a requirement. IWS has fielded some assets to LAR, but not all others. LAR still has mostly M16’s. The M-16’s are too cumbersome/long for crewmen to employ (get out of the cupola or out of a door/window) in a timely manner while under stress such as when receiving fire...

5.56mm vs. 7.62 Lethality ~ 5.56mm “definitely answered the mail” and “as long as the shots were in the head or chest they went down” were typical quotes from several Marines; many who were previously very skeptical of 5.56mm ammunition. Most of the interviewed Marines who reported targets not going down and/or could still fight were referencing non-lethal shots to the extremities. There were reports of targets receiving shots in the vitals and not going down. These stories need not be described, but are of the rare superhuman occurrences that defy logic and caliber of round. Some Marines did ask about getting the heaver-grained 5.56mm rounds, up to 77 grain if possible...

Rifle Propelled Grenade ~ Many Marines are requesting Rifle Propelled grenades to augment or replace the M203. The M203 doesn’t have an adequate range capability. (note: this desire stems from the fact that the most effective weapon employed against coalition forces was the RPG)...

Three-Point Slings ~ Marine unit funds and individual funds were used to purchase three-point slings for M16A2 service rifles. These were used or “fabricated” by numerous Marines and received much praise. Marines requested that each of these be issued with each M16A2. An example of one such sling is the “Giles Tactical Carbine Sling” made by “The Wilderness Tactical Products” (www.thewilderness.com)...

M9 Pistol Magazines ~ The magazines are not working properly. The springs are extremely weak and the follower does not move forward when rounds are removed. If the magazine is in the weapon, malfunctions result. If out of the weapon, remaining rounds fall out of the magazine. Dirt and sand does cause some of the problem with follower movement, but multiple cleanings of the magazine each day does not alleviate the problem. The main problem is the weak/worn springs. (note: I personally encountered this problem as well. Say what you will, but I had to break down all magazines daily to clean them. Despite this effort, rounds routinely “fell” out of the magazine. Forces in contact did not have the time or the luxury to break down each 9mm magazine daily. M16 magazines worked well. Like many officers, I also traded up to a rifle).

Enemy Engagements ~ Almost all interviewed stated all firefight engagements conducted with small arms (5.56mm guns) occurred in the twenty to thirty (20-30) meter range. Shots over 100m were rare. The maximum range was less than 300m. Of those interviewed, most sniper shots were taken at distances well under 300m, only one greater than 300m (608m during the day). After talking to the leadership from various sniper platoons and individuals, there was not enough confidence in the optical gear (Simrad or AN/PVS-10) to take a night shot under the given conditions at ranges over 300m. Most Marines agreed they would “push” a max range of 200m only.

------------------

Best,

- Jawper"

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 15:36:56 (ZULU)


Herr Lindy-meister.....(((;

No, they will not outshoot the 175's at 1k.( in a .308).

Too much drop, from lack of velocity( gotta load em' around 2500fps).

So, stick with the 175's.

now, if you went to a .300WM, well.....you know what that means w/190's..LOL

Ted, unreal.........I am sick of Leupold's incompetence, I will not call them again.

I will let Litosan', put up with it...LOL.

There is only ONE guy there that seems to know his stuff( he's a shooter), but, he's never available( he's always talking to Litosan'....heheheheh..........direct line........).

Two Shoes

Waiting on the dial issue to settle.

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 15:37:45 (ZULU)



Hey M-25...

If you're still lurkin' out there - a news flash.

There ain't no more squirrels livin' at "Case De 'lito" no more.  I made up some "Almond flavored", chopped peanuts last week, and they loved them ;))  Thanks for the little package ;)))

-

Ted...

That cam is for 2600fps, and I can't figure out why they went that way instead of 2685, unless they wanted to match the Fed GM2 load??? GO figure.  One thing to remember is that the guys at Lupita are NOT tactical shooters.  None of them actually use these M3 scopes :((

-

Michael...

"When the dust settles..."

That is exactly what I'm trying to do.  I have about 12 or 15 cams for the two M3, and there are still a few more to be released in the next few months.  When I have the full lot, I plan to do an article (with pictures, so they can be identified) of all the cams, the bullets they are for, and the optimum velocities.

-

rod regier

>"- MPH, feet/second, kilometer/hour, meters/second?"<

You left out "Ferlongs per fortnight" ;)) HA!

-

Boltster...

>"Why is it so hard to give up a business after almost 20 years, even though you know it's time?"<

I hear that!  When I gave up my Motion picture company, it really tore me up, cuz I loved the business (but not most of the people).

But the Video guys were killing me with lower bids (cuz they didn't have the film and developing costs), and I finely threw in the towel.  Last year I sold off a lot of it on eBay, and that was the second knife.  I sold three Arriflex motion picture cameras that I paid $15,000 each for, and got $700 each :(((

But when it's time, you gotta move on :(((((((((

-

Rich Johnson

>"Now I am confused... "<

Don't feel bad.  This M3 stuff could confuse a Cray.  There are TWO M3 scopes.  The MK4-M3 (fixed 6x or 10X), and the M3-LR (3.5x10 variable).

The focus (parallax) knobs each turn in different directions to go from infinity to close up... but the inside design where the play is, is in the same place. :(

With the MK4-M3, the knob has the infinity symbol at the bottom of the range... if you are looking at the infinity symbol, you turn it CLOCKWISE to focus closer.

With the M3-LR, the knob has the infinity symbol at the TOP of the range... if you are looking at the infinity symbol, you turn it COUNTER CLOCKWISE to focus closer.

So the instructions are opposit for each one... to get rid of parallax, you ALWAYS start from the bottom symbol (maximum CCW), and turn CLOCKWISE to go to the mark you want.

Still confused??? Me too ;)

-

Glockamole...

I got 2600 with 190SMK's out of my .308.  they shot very well (10" twist).  tAt this speed, there is a very slight advantage to the 190's but not enough to switch... and they don't follow the M3 cams :((

-

The '97 came apart today, and has been scrubbed inside and out with a toothbrush and miniral spirits.  It's back together with a generous bunch of G-96 (Man, it smells sweet ;)... it's slick and tight as a tick's ass ;)

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 16:54:26 (ZULU)



Bolt: There's another A-5 Review here -

http://www.snipershide.com/reviews/reviewmcma5.html

Here's the link to my site where you can see pics of my A-5 -

http://home.attbi.com/~savage308/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Cheers, Luke

Luke Email this member See this member's profile
Denver, CO, - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 17:52:28 (ZULU)



Range report...... :((((((

It has become strikingly evident that I am in desperate need of a shooting coach. I wish I knew what my inconsistancy could be blamed on, but alas, the Bolster hit the wall today. Groups from 1/2" then jumping to 1 1/2", horizontal stringing, the problems never ended. The only shining star was an HBV 308 group of 3 in a nice little overlapping cloverleaf. I alternated a 300mag, 7mag, 308 and 223 due to the 85 degree dead air, 3 shots each rifle and then let it rest. I don't know what's going on but I think I'll video tape myself kinda like the golfers do to find out that the hell's going on. I may just go back to shooting skeet!

Lito.....

In 1985 when I started the business, I immediately was flooded with work since no one else was doing it. For the next 10 years, I could work as many hours as I could stay awake and never catch up. Then, all the tackle shops that I was picking up from started closing down. 6 of 7 have closed in the last 6 years and now I am down to one pick up point. I can't advertise since I work out of my house and am already pushing the Nazi zoning laws around here. I don't have the parts volume requirements to get the prefered discounts anymore. I had to order a 50 cent spring last week and it cost me $4.92 to get it here. Either people aren't fixing the stuff or fixing it themselves I reckon. There is so much disposable fishing junk out there that it costs more to repair most of them than they are worth. I have records going back since the day I started the business and this has been the worst quarter since I started. I may give up the rod and reel repair side of the business and just keep building custom rods. More fun, more challenging, something you can be proud of when it's finished.

A5 review......

Thanks for the reminders guys. Sometimes I fergit to do a search. The stock is nice but those 2 big ole knobs kinda turn me off.

Luke......

Nice looking riffle, except it looks like everything is on the wrong side :))))))

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 21:17:35 (ZULU)



Sinister:

I spoke with RJ last year. The story as reported by Bobitt has some inaccuracies.

Thomas was actually scouting for a sniper mission (phoenix) he was going to do with a bolt gun (700/Redfield) later. Little did he know, an NVA battalion had moved into the area while he was doing the scout and shot his chopper down.

The SEALs had no organized sniper school of their own back then. The best shot (or whoever wanted to carry the thing) could carry a 21/Starlight if he wanted. Few did because of the typical SEAL mission. 21 was too big and heavy and not great for suppresive fire.

RJ had a Stoner with him on the flight but all weapons were damaged as described. The pilot had a standard 1911 in an elephant hide holster and three magazines. Green with corrosion. NVA/VC were hiding behind a paddy dike 'cause RJ would shoot 'em when they'd stick their heads up.

Distances and KIA were different. Some problems with one of the dustoff pilots.

One story of many, many heros from that war.

Details in my book ... guess I oughta finish it.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 21:21:33 (ZULU)


Mates' perhaps the most prominent expension of data bytes on this site since 1996 in my fading memory has been the disemination of information regarding a scope cam that doesn't seem to match any projectile known to Sniper, human or otherwise. Since this cam is placed to adorn a device that has neither marking of parallax range or decided consistance in it's very ..direction of travel, it might be appropriate to look elsewhere for something that might do the job as well or better. Since U.S.Optics and Unertl seem to faded and Bushnell and Simmons are out for reasons involving the popular  coolness of choice.. I give you no solutions but this thing seems to have no pending solution after bouncing off the walls of SC for a number of years now. It seems quite insurmountable that the Good God Leupold would not have solved the problem by now if he had a mind too.

I did find while experimenting with Sheperd reticles which are pretty much set without any more comprehensive solutions than that of the infamous 30-06 cam that it was a simple matter to adjust the speed of the bullet to compensate for deficiencies.  In the field it was a simple matter to make small corrections. There will be those who will say that this is no solution because of their insistance upon some particular load. (GA rifles are not that particular or so I am told. Probably most other good rifles aren't either and should shoot a 100 fps or so either way to satisfactory standards.) This should also work somewhere close in the Leupold system or perhaps they just don't know what the hell they are doing!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 21:52:42 (ZULU)


lito'

Ok.  I'm good with that...I think.  But none of that should affect the set-up right.  I mean once the parallex is dialed out and the knob is "re-zeroed" then that should remain a constant and the only thing I should worry about is starting from the big dot instead of the infinity thingy right?

Naven

Rich Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 22:20:24 (ZULU)


I reckon I am missing most of this cam/knob/etc. thing, due to my failing power of reasoning. IMHO, they could just gimme a blank cam/knob/etc. thingie and I'd never know the difference. All I do is zero the thing in at 100 and set the knobs back to 0, then move back to 200 and raise it up until it gets in the place I ont's it. Then, I just right down in my little book how many minutes it takes to get the boolit in (or in my case, near) the hole. When I get the opportunity to shoot longer than 200 (mainly at 600 or 1000) I write that dope down. I just put the correct caliber dials on the scope for the coolness effect. 300mag looks more intimidating than a measly old 308 :) As usual I am probably missing the boat. That happens a lot here lately.

Get to babysit sniperbaby grandson tonight. Dough Lady stuck foot in mouth and said we'd keep him overnight to give daughter a break and a night out. I don't think she remembers that SHE will have to get up and feed the little booger.

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
Getting moldy in, NC, - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 22:59:08 (ZULU)


This is some good info for any one involved in public safety.  Click my name or cut and paste this:

http://www.riskinstitute.org/ptrdocs/CharacteristicsofEffectiveEmergency.pdf

Robert H Email this member See this member's profile
Ne, Ca, USA - Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 23:05:41 (ZULU)


Bolt: One could either put the comeups to the nearest minute of angle at a given range on a card, and tape that to the stock, which would be just about as convenient as having it engraved on the elevation turret, or memorize the increments to the nearest whole MOA at increasing increments of 100 yards from zero, and one would be off, at most, a half minute of angle. And that's assuming that you can measure the distance accurately and the ammo and rifle will hold to that accuracy to begin with. I don't think your missing much, except, perhaps, that people need something to fiddle with and worry about.

When I was in a business where my life depended upon knowing various bits of arcana like that, we memorized them, and then, while we were doing something that didn't fully occupy our brains, like watching an autopilot drive an airplane from point A to point B, we played "catch the dummy" and quizzed each other about them, to ensure that we knew those little bits of data cold, so that we didn't have to look them up when the feces struck the ventilating device and the rubber band or something else really important broke while we were shooting an instrument approach to minimums in a thunderstorm. I'm pleased to have not many pieces of data that important any more.

Gotta do something when you get up in the morning, though.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 00:35:04 (ZULU)



H4831SC update:

Ran some rounds through Gumby today, just to satisfy myself that Hodgdons was full of shit.  Here's what I came up with (and I know it's not identical, but you';ll get the picture)

Last season                 Today

Lap/WLR/142/51.2H4831SC     Lap/91/2M/142/51.3H4831SC

2958                        2772

2939                        2802

2963                        2771

2953                        why bother....

2953

Lap/WLR/142/52.5H4831SC     Lap/91/2M/142/52.3H4831SC

3016                        2833

3024                        2819

3024                        2824

3023                        WTF Over?

3012

For giggles I ran the same prepped case with 49.8gr of H4350 and they averaged 2920fps with zero signs of pressure.  I'm going to bump the load to 51.3gr and see how it shoots at 600.  If I can hold .5 to .75 MOA I'll burn the rest of the tube up with this load.

I ran 6 rounds of my new 8lbs Varget jug as well.  Load was Lap/210M/175/44.4VarGet.  Last season she ran an ave MV of 2680fps with an SD of about 13 if I recall.  Today it went 2667, 2646, 2639, 2644, 2659, 2649.  Sd is high, but this is pretty acceptable lot to lot, and I can easily compensate for a 40fps differnce, but the H4831SC has no place in my house anymore.

What pisses me off is that Hodgdons says the powder line hasn't changed.  I gotta throw the bullshit flag on that one.

Shot an AI target rifle today as well.  The trigger needs work, but it's good kit.  I might try and snake it off the new owner ;))

'Lito-san,

Saw the Ramshot TAC in action today.  He ran only a few rounds over the chrono, like 10, but it was running 2675fps from a 20" factory LTR with NO pressure signs.  I'm almost certain David said the MV was identical to those he got off a 55*F day, and today was 87*F.  Ohh, and the SD was sigle digit,, thrown threw a Hornady powder measure.  Very interested in seeing how the Magnum does,, as the TAC appears to be good to go.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 01:27:03 (ZULU)


Fatboy- how many rounds thru the tube?????  In a couple of the loading manuals they comment that if everything else stays the same, velocity will drop as the throat wears.  One of the manuals even had a chart showing how one of their test weapons showed velocity loss over the year(s).

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 02:01:52 (ZULU)



Just a quick note guys, I'll be off line for a few more weeks till I get relocated fully and get a decent internet connection going.  Catching up on the Roster only on weekends gives me a BUNCH of readin' to do.  

Anyone try SASS yet?  You had asked about it. Also, I'll be lookin for some range buddies once I get all moved.  (Harrisburg, PA area.)  If it goes bang, I'm all for it!

Superuser (Doug) Email this member See this member's profile
What part of "To Uphold and Defend" don't you understand?, We voted you in, we can vote you OUT!, - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 02:47:41 (ZULU)


Rich, you are dialing the side focus for minimum parallax at each different range right? There is an argument that parallax is different for different shooters and that's why the range is not marked on the dial. I'm not sure I buy that, but I'm no optics expert. Shooters will choose different settings but somebody needs to explain this if it's true. However it should be marked in my estimation to get in the ball park and when you don't have time to move your head around for 3 minutes.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 02:50:50 (ZULU)


WR,

1050 rounds through the tube.  The barrel was re-chambered after 647, and the throat was pushed out some, but not much.  No more than .020" as far as I can tell.  When I seated out to the lands, my loads ran about 30fps slower than when I run with an OAL of 2.975", which is where I ran this load last year.  I see where you're going with this, but the load I used today almost locked the action shut last October.  50.5 was my standard load after those initial tests were done, and I was running between 2890 to 2930 depending on the state of the brass (FL vs. FF), with the SMK .020" off the lands.  I didn't see ANY pressure today,, but with the virgin cases last week(same lot) the bolt handle was a bit stiff at times, and I had a lot of brass on my bolt face and slight ejector marks on the case heads.  No real issue,, but unusual for a round only running 2740fps.  I chalked it up to the FF'ing.

I can't see the small difference in throat length making a 200fps difference, but I been wrong before.....

Brass, primer are all of the same lot.  Bullets are all nekid 142SMK's.  Only real difference is the powder lots.  

As I recall, Wes and Pat both needed about 54gr of the H4831(SC) to get 2950 to 3000fps.  Maybe I got lucky last season and ran into some fast powder.  It's unlikely as I bought it from three different suppliers,, but who knows.....

I'm happy with the Varget, as it wasn't running bad at all, but I don't see throat errosion being the issue for the 40fps drop.  I only fired the 308WIN about 1000 rounds last season.  Looks like I may need to bump my 223 rounds up a little as well, as I'm needing 1.5 more MOA to get the 80SMK's to 600 yards.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 03:04:57 (ZULU)


Gents,

All this talk about changes to H4831 makes me a bit nervous. Luckily, I'm playing off my original 8 lb caddy. After that it's test and find a new load point.

Have used 190 Sierra's, Bergers, and Hornady's in the .308. All loaded to 2.800". All shot at 2,600 or a little better. Drop was 14.5 MOA at 600 yards. My pet 175 gr Sierra load requires 15.0 MOA at the same distance. The 175's win from 600 on out...

Brian, Have a message coming to you tomorrow. Some questions and a needed assist. Provided you have the time/and or want to check my work.

Am arranging my shop and office this week on my days off. Weeding out the un-needed and un-wanted. Focus strictly on LR stuff and high grades from here on out. One afternoon is range day...gotta get some downrange...

All for now...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 03:43:40 (ZULU)



************WARNING LOTS OF BANDWITH BURNED HERE *********

Sorry about the long list of data, but Fatboy never told me how to do multiple columns and get them aligned correctly.

Since we're still talking Hogden powder, here - finally - is the crono data from my .308 and old\new lots of Varget.

Here is the raw data from my crono sessions..... in compiling this I might just forget using that "new" lot of varget at ASC#2 and try some of my RE15 instead.... The 45 grain load was compressed, 45.5 was HEAVILY COMPRESSED to the point of leaving a shiny ring on the bullet from the seater.

I hate the calculator I have.... got some wierd results trying to figure out how to make it do SD's had to be fat fingers not entering the data correctly. I initially tried to run it all "long hand" and just use the adding machine for calculations - PITA.

Anyway:

Standard for all loadings - Cronograph - Crony (basic w\o printer and calculator - write your own numbers and calc yourself), LC 64 match case, WLR primer, flash holes and primer pockets done, charges dropped from LEE Perfect measure (I drop all but my 1000 yardc loads as I load too much volume to drop and trickle but I weight every tenth or so and it is normally +\- .1 grain), Seating done with Hornady dies to 2.80" OAL, fired from a rest out of Rem 700 BDL (1991 mfg w\24" hvy varmint contour barrel) in pillar bedded M40A1 stock with Williams bottom metal, Badger rings and base, 3.5-10x40 vari-x III LRM3 - barrel had ~ 400 rounds through it at test time.

4/12/2003

First ten shots on each list

70*

4/25/2003

Second ten shots on each list

68*

5/1/2003

Third ten shots on each list

65*

Varget Lot # 8 0528983470 (old jug)

45 grains

2748

2747

2765

2737

2750

2760

2745

2751

2755

2747

2755

2747

2759

2744

2743

2764

2748

2753

2750

2747

2760

2749

2745

2758

2755

2745

2758

2755

2745

2750

2757

2743

45.5 grains

2755

2792

2796

2794

2771

2791

2765

2795

2772

2796

2795

2765

2790

2776

2793

2763

2787

2796

2781

2784

2755

2796

2770

2775

2796

2768

2790

2796

2785

2770

Varget Lot # 8 1114013790 (new jug)

45 grains

2628

2635

2643

2618

2628

2645

2648

2664

2663

2641

2645

2635

2662

2620

2625

2648

2652

2635

2641

2638

2655

2644

2648

2632

2635

2638

45.5 grains

2695

2678

2689

2681

2686

2683

2651

2685

2674

2659

2667

2697

2680

2677

2685

2671

2687

2695

2689

2655

2675

2686

2691

2676

2683

2661

2679

2684

2675

2666

Draw your own conclusions...... I have mine written down in ink!

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 04:01:05 (ZULU)


Fatboy- FWIW, I'd stabilized my .308 loads in LC brass.  Did a few initally in once fired commercial cases and discovered that I needed 1/2 grain more 4064 (OK, OK I had it on hand!) to make the same 2850 fps.  Went out and bought some new Winchester brass.  With the same loads, velocities went all over the place-mostly low.  Ran a few cases through a sizing die out of curiosity and discovered that the inside surface of the neck wasn't at all even.  When the neck expander passed through, could see contact areas and non contact areas.  In other words- variations in neck tension.  You did say virgin brass.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 04:01:45 (ZULU)


I just picked up SCLE #18 today.  Sweet rifle, I'll be doing the break in and zero tommorow.

Michael,

I'm looking at the M3LR on my rifle and it turns CCW to increase elevation (viewed from above).  I'm planning on calling Leupold Monday for a 3006 dial if they'll still swap them.

Also, the mildots appear to be round (it's not the gen 2 reticle unfortunately).  My older M1LR has football shaped dots.  I've been traveling and may have missed this discussion but when did the shape of the mildots on the M3LR change (or were they always round or do I need glasses?)?

Steve in Tapa Email this member See this member's profile
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 04:36:14 (ZULU)



FatDude...

I'm trying to get a jug of "Tac" right now.  I won't be doing anything new 'til the ASC#2 is history (though it looks like we might drown like wet cats when we get there :(((... but I plaan to give it a through testing.

I'm getting more interested in this Tac stuffie.  After I put my stick back together, I'm NOT getting the performance that I was in the past with Varget... could it be that the honeymoon is over??  Hmmmmmmm!

-

SuperDoug...

Yeah, I got my SASS membership in the mail on Thursday.

AS of now... I gots two pistols, a Rossi 1892 "Puma" saddle ring carbine, a M1897  "E" series takedown 20" shotgun, and a hammerless double barrel EAA on the way.  Gotta get some leather, and some lead (Ugh) boolets and I'm good to go.  I'm gonna go and watch a few matches when I get back from ASC#2.

-

'yote Bate...

>"There is an argument that parallax is different for different shooters and that's why the range is not marked on the dial. I'm not sure I buy that..."<

Good!  Smart puppy that you are.  Focus (parallax) is just like the focus on a camera.  There are fixed formulas that determine when a scope or camera is "IN FOCUS", and it's not subject to interpretation or opinion.  Like many things in science, the laws of optics are written in stone, and are from God-da!

The focus of a scope comes BEFORE the eye can interpretate (edit - ??? INTERPRETATE - WTF???) the image... the target is either ON the reticle, or it ISN'T!!... IF it isn't, then it is out of focus, no matter what the shooter "thinks" he sees.

-

Hockey puck...

When you have something like that, first lay it out on a page of your word processor (or use a blank new e-mail page).  Use Courier text and lay out all the columes and they will be fine when posted.

Get it lookin' like you want, and then do a cut and paste into the little SC window.  It'll look funny in the little window, but it will post OK.

Remember that everytime you hit "Return" or "Enter" on the page, you will get an empty line in the SC posting.

Go back and edit it, and see what I mean.

-

'lito (Squirrel-less and loving it ;)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 04:54:28 (ZULU)


Brogers "Shooters will choose different settings but somebody needs to explain this if it's true. However it should be marked in my estimation to get in the ball park and when you don't have time to move your head around for 3 minutes."

Bill , When you don't have 3 minutes to tweak the focus, that's what a good repeatable cheek weld is for!  ;-)  Or maybe not so humourous!

I have noticed when I get the focus tweaked to perfection, I can move my head around and the group stays reasonably tight.  If the focus is off and I move my head, the group blows up badly.

Mike

BMG Mike Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 05:15:47 (ZULU)



GA Precision SCLE #43 rifle range report

First off, thanks to all for sharing your experiences with the Leupold LRM3 elevation dials.  Although it has been bewildering the different answers we’ve all gotten from Leupold customer service, in fairness, everyone at that company tries hard to do the right thing and I still think they are a great company worthy of repeat business.  I think part of the problem is that the LRM3 is not like any other Leupold scope except the MK 4 M3 and most on this board are not run of the mill shooters so our questions aren’t commonly asked.

I took my SCLE rifle to the range today to break in and zero at 1, 2, and 300 yds.  Longer ranges are harder to find in the San Diego area so that’s as far as I commonly shoot, except when I shoot highpower at Camp Pendleton.  In short, the SCLE is a sweet rifle.  It’s a work of true craftsmanship and capable of far better accuracy than my mediocre skills are up to.  George was great to deal with- knowledgeable, courteous, responsive and very helpful.

The only things I added to the rifle that did not come with it were mounting a Leupold 3.5x10 LRM3 scope and a Harris LMS bipod with a Pod-Loc from Terry Cross.  With the LRM3 and included Badger rings you do not need a cheekpad.  Oh- I did pay more for the SSG style bolt knob and think it was definitely worth the money.

The SCLE rifles all have short throats.  I spoke with George to confirm and the reamer used is such that a 175 Match King seated to 2.80 oal will be touching or very close to touching the lands.  Handloaders take note!!  If you’re used to seating the bullets out for long throated rifles like a Remy PSS, long rounds won’t even chamber in this rifle!

I started by breaking in the barrel with one of David Tubb’s Final Finish firelapping kits.  I have used his firelapping kits in six rifles now, a Mini 14, an Armalite AR, three Obermeyer barreled match tuned M1s, and the SCLE rifle.  For those rifles with hand lapped barrels, I followed Tubb’s instructions and only used the three finest grade abrasives- 5 rds of #3, 10 of #4, and 10 of #5- fire all of the rds of that abrasive then clean  before going to the next set of firelapping bullets.  In my experience, the Final Finish bullets do very well at break in.  I got the rifle on paper to sight in with my real load and I only cleaned the rifle 4 times during break in.  Total time to fire the 25 Final Finish rounds and do all cleaning- about an hour.  After use, I found that none of the barrels done have any copper fouling even during an 88 shot highpower match.  Barrel cleaning is a breeze with no need for Sweets, JB or any other more aggressive cleaner.  I didn’t notice any change in accuracy and I measured throats with a Stoney Point OAL gauge before and after and there was no noticeable change in throat dimension.

After the Final Finish was done, I went to shoot my regular load I use in my Garands for highpower matches at the 600 yd line.  The load is LC 94 cases with no case prep except for trimming on a Gracey and primer pocket uniforming, CCI BR2 primer, 42.3 gr. of IMR 4064 metered through a Dillon 550 B measure, and a Sierra 175 Match King.  I size the cases in an RCBS X die which reduces the need to trim cases, tumble to remove lube, then load progressively through a Dillon 550 B.

The first twenty rounds I chronographed and the average velocity was 2669 fps with a SD of 20 and ES of 82.  I know many of you will say the load has two high an extreme spread and to much standard deviation, but it shoots better than I do, and I have so little time to spend on shooting, I’d rather be shooting than loading.  The ES and SD would probably be lower if I weighed my powder charges, but I'm too lazy.  The nice thing is this velocity is almost an exact match to the marks on the 30-06 dial for the Leupold 3.5x10 LRM3 that’s on the rifle.

I shot 50 rounds through SCLE #43 at 100, 200, & 300 yards.  I first sighted in at 100 then shot a "square" with the Leupold to confirm that the elevation and windage dials were correct and repeatable.  Then I moved to 200 and 300 yards off of a benchrest, bipod prone, and prone with a sling.  I didn’t take too much time to measure groups, but my 200 and 300 yard groups were around .5-.7 MOA for a five shot group.  I'm no benchrest wizard, so those groups are good for me.  Off of a bipod, it shot equally well.  When I went to prone with the sling, I got a 2-3 click  (1-1.5 MOA) windage change and a less than 1 MOA elevation change.  This was probably due to a different position, sling tension, etc.

All in all, I thing George did a great job building these rifles for us and am very happy with my decision to purchase one of the SCLE rifles.  Any quibbles?  Only that I would have paid more for one of Mike’s M24 slings to upgrade from the Slip Cuff sling that came with the rifle.  The slip cuff sling works great, but the M24 sling would be easier to get into and out of since it has the Mike’s Quick Cuff design.

Thanks to all on this website for their contributions.  I've learned a lot here that I would have trouble duplicating elsewhere.

Ted

Ted Email this member See this member's profile
San Diego, CA, - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 05:49:43 (ZULU)


Chris,

In scanning through your numbers the one thing I noticed that was different was the primers used.  Last season you were using Winchester this season Remington.  That may account for some of the velocity difference, but I don't know if it would account for all of it.

Just a thought,

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 06:02:36 (ZULU)



Lito; somehow I knew you would throw me a rope on that one! Thanks.

BMG Mike; true the cheek weld helps. Some snipers go back to the shrinking black hole thing too. I'd really rather have a calibrated objective though myself. Depending on how fast the shot had to be of course. Even if I have to reach out front to turn it. In my bloody business of killin coyotes your position often dictates where your head wanders off too. I suspect Snipers are also faced with that possibility other than on the range.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 07:33:41 (ZULU)


Andy and I went to shoot the 1,000 yard prone match in Bodines, PA yesterday.  I was in the first firing order and it was dead calm.  I laid down, dialed in my dope and went to work with my 6.5x..284.  My third sighter was an “X” so I went for score.  It went (X/X/X/X/10) and I was thinking, “Oh man here we go again.” I then shot (9/9/8).  OUCH!!!!  I ended up with a score of 195-9X.  That ungrateful snot boy of mine shot a 196-4X to beat me.  And after all I’ve done for him he had the gall to beat me….little bastard!

In the afternoon I shot my M40A1 and scored a 10 on my CBS at 1,000 yards.  That alone made the trip worthwhile.  My data book and my PDA agreed that I should dial in 35 moa and that’s exactly what it took.  I went on to shoot a miserable 180-2X with the .308, my excuse being the switching winds.

The ride home provided the usual opportunity for a complete After Action Review.  I decided to leave the 6.5x.284 home from ASC#2 because of the lack of good dope for the rifle and stick with my tried and true M40A1.  Besides the 6.5x.284 is a F-Class game gun not a sniper rifle.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 11:10:11 (ZULU)


Kev,

Andy beat you with the 6.5 x 284 or the .308?

Looks like I may be the only one fighting with a new rifle, new cartridge, new everything at ASC#2....

Looking forward to the shooting and the company....

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 12:28:40 (ZULU)


Since I know Bearman won't say anything... yesterday, during the tornado warning he shot at 425yds with his 300WM. Got 3 shots off before the deluge and by golly the last 2 were damn near touchin!!

Definitely within 1/2 inch of each other. Excellent shot. It's always a pleasure to meet a gentleman for the first time and discover that you have so much in common, from toys to lifestyles.

A fine shot and a fine young man. Course I'd say that bout anybody that hunts coyotes as much as I do.

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 13:08:36 (ZULU)



Ted...

>"First off, thanks to all for sharing your experiences with the Leupold LRM3 elevation dials.  Although it has been bewildering the different answers we’ve all gotten from Leupold customer service, in fairness, everyone at that company tries hard to do the right thing and I still think they are a great company worthy of repeat business.  I think part of the problem is that the LRM3 is not like any other Leupold scope except the MK 4 M3 and most on this board are not run of the mill shooters so our questions aren’t commonly asked."<

Guy... please don't lecture this board about the M3 series of scopes.  You are a new guy in town, so lemme drop some light on the subject.  It was a member of THIS board that spent three years finding and correcting the errors in the M3 cams, and then hammering Leupold into - first, admitting they had a problem, and then - second - doing something to correct it.

There is MORE knowledge about M3 cams on this board, than there is at Leupold.

>"I started by breaking in the barrel with one of David Tubb’s Final Finish firelapping kits."<

Mike Rock is loosing his breakfast about now!!  That's like saying "I just got a new Porche' and took it over to 'Frankie's Used Auto Parts' for a tune up"???

"Fire Lapping" does nothing for a shitty barrel, and ruins a fine, hand lapped barrel.

If fire lapping was any good, why do you think barrel makers take the time and trouble (and it IS time and trouble) to hand lap a barrel... if the same could do the same by just shooting a few 50 cent rounds??? BADD move! Hurt Barrel :((

-

MedicJim...

>"Looks like I may be the only one fighting with a new rifle, new cartridge, new everything at ASC#2...."<

I'm still not happy with my stick.  New scope, new stock, and it ain't shooting like it did :((

And yesterday, the Russian decided to start working up a new load tomorrow, cus the load he used at Storm is a little "Light in the loafers" (a 168SMK @ 2500).  So you will have company :((

Life is nothing, if but unpredictable!

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 14:52:30 (ZULU)


Birchwood Casey Shoot-N-C Targets.......

Yep, used them bad boys yesterday and made a world of difference in seeing those itty bitty 223 holes in a black target. Looked like little yellow chem lights through the spotter scope. No more searching!

http://www.gunaccessories.com/BirchwoodCasey/Shoot-N-C.asp

Finally got the grandyoungun to pay attention to weapon instruction last night. We watched "Nekkid Girls With Machine Guns". Stayed awake through the whole thing!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 15:34:12 (ZULU)


Yep Jon, i'm still kickin. lard ass my ass, aam a lean mean lovin machine !! got Pete Carr and a couple of clients over shooting Boar and Mouflon at the mo, picked em up yesterday fron Hahn, ended up drinking to much beer and schnapps( called the wild boar pisses in the woods)  last night, had an interesting conversation on politics going between us, the German stalkers from the estate and an ex US soldier, good laugh, bad hangover. Your stock is on its way for its paint.catch you tommorow via email.Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 15:53:41 (ZULU)


Tony,

I wouldn't worry about about the cleaning thing so much.  I'm an anal SOB when it comes to cleaning.  I think I just like the smell, but whatever floats your boat.  My shooting partner (JohnL), on the other hand, rarely cleans enough to take out all the copper.  And for a very good reason.  CBS with a dirty barrel has a different POI than a CBS with a clean barrel.  Whether you clean your bore or not, it's imporant to know your POI on that CBS for both a clean and dirty bore.  I followed the break in procedure on my SCLE, but I did not follow it on my other 5R barrels.  Honestly, I can say the barrel on my SCLE does clean up easier.  I don't know if he sent it with your SCLE, but Gardner has an excellent break in procedure typed up.

Michael,

Clockwise increases my elevation on my MarkIV.  I found the M3 cams to by kind of crappy with the MarkIV M3 because I did not care for the fact that they only had the BDC marked.  I ordered a cap from Kenton a while back.  I bought the model that has hash marks every MOA, and every 5 MOA is marked up to 55MOA.  The fellow that I talked with there was really nice, and made darn sure I was getting the correct cap (rotation-wise) before he shipped anything.  Curious to know when Leupold changed rotation direction for elevation?

On a final note, I've been involved with some testing on Lapua 155 Scenar bullets out of a Rock 1-13 5R barrel.  If I heard the fellow correctly, he shot just under a 2 inch group at 500yds.  I think JohnL has more details on the deal, so he'll probably post the details later.  

Funny story: I shot this exact same gun with Sierra 175s, and it would not stabilize the bullet correctly.  Accuracy was terrible beyond 200yds.  This was before we learned of the 1-13 twist.  Just assumed it was 1-12 or close.  Talk about frustrating when your spotter says, "MISS!!, WHAT THE F*%K ARE YOU AIMING AT?"

-mike

Michael Roberts Email this member See this member's profile
MidMO, MO, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 16:04:47 (ZULU)



WR,

I take all my virgin 6.5x284 brass, ream the flash holes to center, hit the flash hole to knock the burrs off, send them through a 263 mandrel, size them back down to .292 with a Redding S type, trim to shortest length and then put a 14* camfer in the mouth.  They were all the same.  When I seat, I take any that feel like they have high or low NT and mark them, keeping those together. None of my loads are anywhere near compressed.

Byron,

I tried the WLR's with this powder lot, but not yesterday.  Results were similar.  The 9 1/2M's are magnum primers(with the softest cups in the industry), but they show VERY little difference in MV from a standard WLR, which seem to be hotter than the average standard primer.  I also tried 215M's, 210M's and CCI-BR2's.  Same/same....  which is to say, slow MV.

The trouble with load testing and development of these rifles is,, if you go through 200 to 250 rounds to find your "perfect load", you've just eaten 20 to 25% of the barrel in a match rifle.  Likely far less in a rifle that never gets hot,, but these do get hot mang....  Wild MV swings lot to lot doesn't help the process.  Sometimes "Good", is good enough.

'Lito,

I gotta say, I was impressed with the TAC loads.  That little pistol barrel was humming the Lapua 170 lock bases he was shooting.  His 600 yard come up was 6(-1) on the M3LR 30-06 cap and it was mid to high 80's out.  If the Magnum performs like the TAC does, I'll be buying it in quantity.  Click on my name to warp over to the thread, or go here: http://207.36.15.177/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000553

HockeyRef,

Man,, you're VarGet is WAY off the mark.  I don't feel so bad now. My current Lot # of VarGet is "8 0620023956".

Kevin,

And the Grasshopper becomes the Master ;)  LOL...

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 16:16:51 (ZULU)


'lito

Point taken on Leupold cust. svc- I wasn't trying to lecture anyone especially on this board-just interjecting my opinion

On Final Finish- I can see this is going to be controversial- I won't defend it to others with more experience than I- I can only say that I've corresponded directly with David Tubb on the use of his product in hand lapped barrels and I followed the directions he gave.  It's true he is selling a product, but he is highly regarded in highpower shooting not only for his skills but for his willingness to share knowledge with others.  I have not noticed any harm in accuracy when using Final Finish on a hand lapped barrel.

Ted Email this member See this member's profile
San Diego, CA, - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 16:28:53 (ZULU)


KEV WROTE: "It went (X/X/X/X/10) and I was thinking, “Oh man here we go again.”"

Key point here is, ya started thinking. Jumped right out of the ole bubble. I do it to myself all the time. Some days, the dragon just wins.

Texas State Match, IHMSA .22, Unlimited International Class, around 1984. Hit 59 targets CENTER. Looked over the sights to watch that last little ram fall for all the marbles and shot a foot over it ... Aagggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ! Charlie Brown, you BLOCKHEAD!

Learned from that though; had a woman in my reticle a week ago. Backstop was a highway we couldn't shut down. She was extremely eratic, crazy, full of meth. Moving from the rear to the front of a car (while inside it) alternately, while waving a pistol. Wanted us to do what she couldn't.

Was set up 45 degrees to left front fender. Slightly elevated position (two story).

Had both eyes open to catch the crossing traffic in my peripheral vision behind her and also to determine if she was in the front or back seat.

Front seat was a CNS shot through glass with her bisected by the left front windshield post most of the time. Back seat was an angled center mass shot through glass due to backstop issue. Best bet for the projectile staying in the car.

The shot would have to be timed between cars passing in opposite directions behind her. Tough gig but doable.

She pushed the ROE right up to the line but thankfully, it worked out okay.

Lots of things to work out quickly. But once it's done, don't think. Make the damn shot.

I think Gunny Hathcock called it equanimity.

PS: Wish I could shoot as good as Kevin ... oops, I mean Andy Mussack. lol (just picking with ya Kev)

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 16:34:01 (ZULU)



I have also been impressed with Leupold's customer service. They sincerely do try to make things right. Unfortunately they sometimes send out the wrong thing. I needed a couple of Mark 4 M3 30-06 elevation cams (or collars) that required to be turned CW, and they sent me the ones that went CCW. They also sent me additional LR M3 30-06 cams(or collars) that went CW and I needed the ones that went CCW.

So the moral of the story for me is to make certain that I clearly articulate if my needs are CCW or CW! (I didn't know that both the Mark 4 M3 and the LR M3 change the direction of the elevation adjustment.)

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
CA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 16:40:21 (ZULU)



Some questions from yesterday:

Horizontal stringing to the right, at the same elevation, is indicative of........?

Hornady Custom ammo is fairly consistant......?

180gr Spire Point at at 2950fps is an acceptable combination factory round for a 300 Sendero barrel twist.....?

162gr Spire Point at at 2940fps is an acceptable combination factory round for a 7mag Sendero barrel twist.....?

Trying to get rid of some of my old 300 and 7 mag hunting ammo for the brass.

Last 19 of 26 rounds in a 4" center at 100 yards is an acceptable beginning grouping for a new RRA 223 match upper....? I can't half see the damn target anyway, glasses to be reconoitered this week.

Trying to sort out yesterday's embarrassments, Bolt out!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 17:37:08 (ZULU)


BKS:  Kev's story sounds like the trap I'm prone to.  Everytime I become pleased with myself, I start missing.  When I was a kid, my brothers and I called it "getting happy."  Herringel addresses that in "Zen In The Art Of Archery."

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 18:12:34 (ZULU)


Okay...question...If a reticle is focused correctly for one person should it be focused correctly for someone else or does it depend on the individual and why?

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 18:30:48 (ZULU)


Lito,

I have to disagree with you on the Tubb's Final Finish on bad barrels. I do agree 100% with you not to use it on a hand lapped match barrel which I would never do but on a fouling factory barrel it works. I used it on my 300WM 700P and after the treatment I got 60fps more velocity from the same load which before the treatment was starting to show pressure signs but no pressure signs after the treatment, groups only dropped slightly about .1" but the barrel was much easier to clean as it was smoother and didn't collect as much copper. I wrote a little article on my expierience with the Tubb's FF and it's in the Review section of SC if anyone wants to read it.

Well only about a week to ASC#2. I too will be interested to see how my SWS works. I only have a 400 yard range so after that I'm hoping my ballistics program works. Even if I come in dead last, which is a real possibility, it will still be fun to hang out and shoot with you guys. I was looking at the weather and it looks like thunder storms next weekend. Hopefully it will change between now and then.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 19:11:30 (ZULU)


Thinking and using higher brain functions is often counterproductive to executing almost instinctive physical actions.

As a former boss once stated, "STFU, stop thinking and just execute!"  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 19:18:52 (ZULU)


Caison, I got your message the on Friday.  At least, my answering machine did.  I was out in the desert, dessicating in 100-degree heat.  Sorry I didn't get back to you last week, but I was HUA trying to get everything done that needed doin' and making Boudicca happy before I left.

Man, I must be gettin' soft.  Spent two days, hiking and carryin' that Howa through the rocks and weird dirt they call the Chihuahuan Desert down in Big Bend country.  I know, they say no firearms in a Federal park, but I figure my badge outranks theirs in Texas, regardless of what they say.  And the border is no place to go disarmed, no sirree.  Found out just precisely how badly I suck at ranging using the Mk I, Mod.0 eyeball.  I'd range a rock that I figured to be 150 yds away, turn out to be twice that, and vice versa.  The air was so dry and hot, mirage was a problem even without using any glass at all, and the terrain is so godawful broken, you are usually looking over at least two ravines without even knowing it. I mean, they are absolutly invisible! Using my height as a standard, and figuring out what the average height of an ocotillo, I could do somewhat better, but far from KD range perfect.  Good practice, though, if you live around here.  Only thing is, other people think they have the right to go to that park too, and you hafta kinda keep an eye on the horizon for dust trails indicating someone else is in the area.  I've heard tales that some gentle folk get all excited if'n they see some ratty-lookin' dude in cammo walking around in the back country, mindin' his own bidness an' totin' a rifle.  Tend to call the rangers, and then there's all that fussin' and carryin' on....better just build a hide and work from there.  I found out just how much patience I've lost over the years. Laying in a hole out there gets, well, hot is not really descriptive enuff.  Even with a shelter half for shade, it took a gallon of water to keep me from passing out just sitting there for five hours.  Best way I can describe it is going up on a tar shingle roof, in August, at 5 pm and laying down on it, trying to prop up on yer elbows.  Hey, (in)Sain, sound familiar?  

Anyway, you get back in this area, we'll do better next time.  I gotta go get something to drink.....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 20:56:24 (ZULU)



Just got back from the range a little while ago.  I finished the break in and zero on SCLE #18.  Another very happy customer.  

I only shot to 100 yards today.  The rifle broke in quickly and my best 5 shot group was under a half inch (rifles probably capable of better than that but I wasn't).

I'm hoping to get to Manatee Thursday or Friday and shoot out to 500 yards.  Tony and Bill, I'll e-mail you when I firm up a range date (the weekend of the 24th is my backup).

Just wanted to thank George and GA Precision for a fine rifle.

Steve in Tampa Email this member See this member's profile
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 21:49:39 (ZULU)


If anyone is interested I have a set of three dials for the Loopy M3 I no longer need.  They are the .223 cam, the 30-06 cam, and the 300 WinMag cam.  Lemme know, they are freebies.

Scott Barnett Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 21:56:24 (ZULU)


Cold Zero, MedicJim,

I got your E-mails, thank you.

I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Things are SNAFU at work and my job is somthing like a company Sgt.

-Critter (with lots of sawdust camo)  

Critter Email this member See this member's profile
There is no school solution to tactics., - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 22:00:07 (ZULU)


Gooch said......

"Okay...question...If a reticle is focused correctly for one person should it be focused correctly for someone else or does it depend on the individual and why?

Gooch              

Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 18:30:48 (ZULU)

Goochmaster,

I say, No to the first question, and as to why, I think a couple of reasons.

( I will tell you, and then you can slap me nekid, and hide my clothes(...))));

First, No two persons eyesight is the same, and more importantly, their cheekweld, and LOP, usually isn't either.

Causing them to be closer, or farther away from the eyepiece.

I know this typically is for relief, but, I have found due to vision differences, it also affects the reticle( at least it seems to, to me).

Same reasons for why one persons zero, is not the same as another,using ALL the same variables, and components.....

Awaiting incoming.........LOL

Two Shoes

Glockamloie Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 22:01:08 (ZULU)


Fellas, got to spend a good day yesterday, hit the range in the morning, watched a fellow build up a tackdriver rifle in the afternoon / evening, and got to go out for food twice with fellow shooters.  All in all, a great Saturday.

Mike comments on my cleaning regimen, or lack thereof.  It's true, and partly just laziness.  But I've found that simply punching out the powder fouling once in a while is plenty.  I do not pull all the copper out, unless I'm not going to shoot it for a few months [copper attracts moisture].

The benchrest guys just freak, and I try and explain to them the rules my matches follow : no fouler shots advised.

And I do break them in : I shoot rounds through them!  As soon as I can, preferably the same day I get a new gun.

On the 1/13" twist : I've shot one of those, but this wasn't me with the 155's.  I think the guy said averaging 2-2.5" groups, we'll have to see if they hold on at 1000 yards.

One thing I can say, even the factory Lapua loads bark out of those there 5R barrels at 2840 avg [22" Rock] and 2880 avg [24" SCLE].  And those be factory fodder . . .

And I know of one guy handloading them that is just a RCH below 3000 fps with them.  That is moving out.  Took a look at his predictive data (from Sierra's Infinity 5) and it seems that it is rather close to tracking the 2950 fps, 190 gr smk.  Hmmmmm.

Anyway, a good time was had by all.  And I don't think I was quite that harsh to the shooter, but I may have been.  Shots were not routinely impacting a half maiden at 400; what can I say? :)

John L

(whose M3 cams are all counter-clockwise these days)

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 22:23:31 (ZULU)


Scott Barnett...

Mail Call!!!!

RichS

Rich S. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 22:34:12 (ZULU)


Firelapping...

Wonder why Krieger or Hart doesn't send a box of lapping bullets with their barrels..I mean hell, if Tubb peddles it, must be the bees knees, right?

I'll put it this way, it's a game of russian roulette I'd never recommend to anyone I like...

Polishing Remington barrels, oh my..Those marks you see under the borescope ain't all on the surface, there are fractures, inclusions, impurites pounded into the bore, all the things that make their hamma foge barrels the turds they are..I guess the only thing good about firelapping those barrels is that maybe you will shoot the crap barrel out faster and replace with a match barrel...

What I want to know, is how does this stuff majikally remove the tight spots without increasing the bore diameter in the other areas?  Nifty trick...  

I'd like to expirement, some year I'll have the time..I have this nagging suspicion that using these bullets is choking the bore towards the muzzle, which is why you are getting somewhat better results in velocities with the factory barrels..

anyway, I don't recommend it for handlapped match grade barrels.  I bet you'll find that any verbal or written guarantee you may have had with your barrel will be null and void upon admission of said break in procedure..

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, May 11, 2003, at 23:22:46 (ZULU)



Ted...

On firelappin'... it's not a matter of opinion.  There have been folks that video'd the bore of a barrel, then "firelapped" it, and then video'd it again.  All it does is move the throat forward... nothing else.  Not "my" opinion (I don't care), just what people that have the equipment to test these things have found.

Read what JR said... case you don't know who "JR" is, he is one of the top barrel makers around... made ALL of the H-S match barrels for years ('til he left them last year for better digs)... and one of two folks that made certified SAAMI "Standards" and "Proofing" barrels.  Listen to him, he knows of what he speaks!!!!!

As far as Tubbs goes... one of the problems of becoming a top winner in a sport that doesn't have the backing of TV, cereal or beer companies, is that there is no way to cash in on all the years of hard work.

Tubbs has a bunch of stuff he sells now, and a lot of it is... well... ah... do you believe in the tooth faerie and the Easter bunny?

... by the way.  Ask George if he still guarentees the barrel after you have shot abrasive boolets through it ??

Maybe ask Mike Rock what "HE" thinks if this?

-

FatDude...

Thanks for the link to the "Tac" thread on the hide.  I went back and read all three threads that he posted, and it's looking better and better (especially now...  just came up from weighin' charges of Varget :( ... and gotta go back down to finish 200 more :(( ... and I gotta a commercial loading machine for 308 match just sitting there :(((.

I'm at the last of the Varget as of now... about a pound left.  I'll use it to compare it with Tac when I get back, and get 32 pounds of whatever workie best.

LTR's efforts are orderly and clear, and he also seems to know what he is talking about (unlike some others) so I value his work and opinions.  I will be testing "Tac" as soon as I get back from ASC#2.

-

Gooch...

There are two focus' in the scope... the Range/Parallax, and the eye-piece focus.

If the range/Parallax is in focus, it is good for anyone that uses the scope, no matter who/what/where.

If you have the knob adjusted or marked for the ranges (100, 200, etc) then anyone can use your settings and be parallax free.

But the eyepiece is user sensitive... and different users might need to change it... especially if they need corrective glasses, but don't wear them when shooting.

Contrary to common belief, changing the eyepiece does NOT change or correct the parallax/range setting.

(Glockamole... Badd puppy!  Hit the deck and gimme 50!)

-

FireDude...

>"Well only about a week to ASC#2. Even if I come in dead last, which is a real possibility, it will still be fun to hang out and shoot with you guys."<

That's NOT a real posibility... that place is reservied for me and the Russian...

>"I was looking at the weather and it looks like thunder storms next weekend."<

That would be VERY BADD... the idea of crawling in the mud for a few days really sucks.  I'M TOO OLD FOR THAT SHIT :((

By the way... me and the Russian are going to the range tomorrow morning (Monday)... probably get there around 11-ish AM to set up.

Drop by if you can.

-

'lito (Squirrel free and lovin' it ;)

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 00:02:13 (ZULU)


Les and 'Lito-- thanks

I ran into a M70 Coyote today in 7WSM.  Brand new, under $600, it really felt good.  Any thoughts?  I would eventually rebarrel and restock (.308 and McMillan).  I am curious to see what the 7WSM is like, just because.

Bolt-- sorry to see the business going

Ken-- Supposedly the range goes to 500 yds, but the time I was there I only used a 150 plinking range (there were a bunch of full auto shooters there) and a 50 yd range.  If there is a 500 I just didn't see it.

Steve

Steve Burris Email this member See this member's profile
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 02:11:16 (ZULU)


John,

Incoming E-Mail

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan Email this member See this member's profile
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 02:12:04 (ZULU)


Litosan... me and Bill will wrestle you and the rooskie and Rob for it..... we're probably both gonna be shooting that funky Varget I detailed above...... What flavor malted beverage you like.... I figure I owe you one from some time in the past 6 or 7 years......

Rain... IT DON'T RAIN ON A RFLE MATCH!..... stock up on the rain-x wipes anh look for some Gore-Tex just in case.

Any of you other easterners looking at the wind we're getting and goin' "only Pat could hit anything in this! Lookie dat jeep rolling by!"?????

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Gotta decide what load I'm shootin' , at ASC#2 this weekend, any one ever shoot in SCUBA gear? - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 02:46:07 (ZULU)


Gents

I'm probably the slowest person on the list to try new things. Why? Because what I have is working and I deplore change for changes sake.

Take fire lapping. People swore by it, later, some at it. My take is that if you have a good tube, to begin with, why do that? I KNOW what Boot's Obermeyer thinks about it and others. Another gimmick to sell product. Kinda like moly bullets. May work for some, but NOT for this guy.

On the Varget thread. Rather than sweat it, I'll shoot my caddy up and order 32 lbs of the a new lot. That'll put me in shape for a long time to come, as I only put about 1,000 downrange last year( I know, shame, shame).

Think some times we are getting a little anal retentive about some of this stuff. I use what has proven itself to me...you use what you like...meet ya on the firing line and I'll bet there's not much difference. Still think it's the man more than the equipment. In this case a careful melding of good equipment and training/practice.

155's in the .308. The Palma crew pushes it WAY beyond what we would consider normal limits. Special chambers, barrel twists, long throats, etc., that would NEVER function through most of our rifles. The max/compressed loads must have an adverse effect on barrel life, as well. Don't get me wrong. I have a tremendous respect for the Palma folks. They are just different than the tactical segment of shooters, for good reason. It's a different "game".

QUESTION: Does shipment and handling of match grade ammo effect accuracy? The reason I ask is a former AMTU armorer, of my acquaintance, told me that AMTU had conducted studies of M118 and M852 before and after shipment to Perry and other sites and found runout to be 2 to 3 times what it was originally.

Sinister, can you comment, as the new head honcho of AMTU? This makes a certain amount of sense to me, but how much does it REALLY effect accuracy?

Putting together my spring/summer kit. Will post a list and you can tell me what I missed. Please remember this isn't a deployment. Just a equipment set that will sustain operations for 2-3 days in the bush.

All for now. I value your opinions and recommendations.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 02:59:24 (ZULU)


Lito,

Thanks for the invite tomorrow but I have to work. Check out the new concrete slab we put down this week where the old shooting shack was. We're going to put two more outside firing positions there and then 2 enclosed. I'm not sure how they will enclose it or if it will be like the old shed but anything is better than that shed.

And for the record, no one will take my dead last position at ASC#2 without a fight. ;)

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 03:09:25 (ZULU)


OK Lito, slap me stupid.  I need clarification on this one.  You say that if I focus the reticle for my eye and then set the parallax, and then, if Gooch uses my weapon and then sets the reticle to his eye then the parallax remains the same?  I always thought that the function of the reticle and parallax was to get them on the "same focal plane" and if the reticle is changed to a new focal plane then the target focus must be shifted to the same plane.  Reason why, at times, the scope will be parallex free but target NOT in focus, reticle not in focus.  Or am I missing something here?

Dumb old man scratching head.

Rick

Rick Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 03:31:49 (ZULU)



Steve Burris,

Re: the 7 WSM with plans to rebarrel and stock to .308, you'll need a new bolt at the minimum.  The 7 WSM case head dimension is .535" and .308's are .473"

SCLE #13:

Well I just got back from a long day at the range from about 10:00 to 16:30.  Weather was great, bright and clear 70 - 80 degrees, with 3 - 5 MPH breezes.  Good thing for me it has covered benches or I would've been toasted.  I needed to get some dope on the iron sights for a cross-the-course gun and needed to see how ole #13 was going to treat me.  Since it was a public range with line breaks every 30 minutes I figured I would start with the x-course gun.  Well I started at 50 yd. because I had no idea where it was going to shoot and of course the brain wouldn't click in on making sight adjustments so I had to do things twice.  Gots' to remember that 1/4 min. clicks are only 1/8 min. at 50 yards.  Once I got that down 100 and 200 were no problem except for a defective :( Tompkins front sight I had to replace.  It was a good thing I had a Redfield on hand.  Then it was time for #13.

My first truely custom stick so I got more pictures of it then some 1st time dads.  I picked it up Saturday from the FFL then I did the customary take it apart, take some initial measurements, photo's and a cleaning (not that it really needed much, just a little shipping dust) before putting it back together and mounting a scope.  George what did you say the triggers were set at?  Maybe it was the Moly-Slide I used on the lugs and cocking cam surfaces.  Either way it sure does break like glass, except its a bit louder when the chambers full!  I have a 3.5-10 M3 arriving tomorrow via UPS but I had to take it for a test drive this weekend so I got out one of my Mark 4 M3's till I decide exactly where I want the 3.5-10.  Since this was just breakin shooting I used the same load I shot in the x-course piece; Sierra 175 gr. HPBT MK on top of 42.2 gr IMR-4064 inside Federal match prep'd case touched off by Fed. 210 GM Match primer.  1st round was off my aiming grid, 2" low and 6" left, but still on the target frame at 100 yards.  Now the work began, cleaning.  Once it was clean and dry again I made the necessary sight adjustments, 2 clicks up and 12 clicks right, and touched off round number 2.  It sure was in the grid this time.  It landed right at 4:30 just off dead center.  Back to work cleaning then drying.  No sight adjustments this time but remembered to change glasses this time.  3rd round was a striking success at 6:00 less than 1/4" from center, they made a single hole.  Back to stroking it some more, cleaning rod that is, it is a family range.  Since this was breakin and sighting I decided to shoot off my rest and rear bag and I put a wind flag out at 50 yd since the bench rest crowd didn't want to leave theirs when they left.  The bore was clean again so 4th shot was chambered.  Checked the wind, blowing left to right 5 mph or so, but I figured no problem since I was using 175's.  I let it fly and when I checked the spotting scope I saw I was bitten by the wind gods.  It was .4" low and you guessed it .5" right.  Oh well, right at .5" three shot group is good for starters, back to cleaning.  Since shots 2 and 3 were less than .25" low and virtually centered left to right I had a 100 yd zero and reset the dials.  Well since you guys are probably bored to tears by now lets just say that at 200 yd. 5th was an X, 6th was a 10 at 3:30, wind bit again, 7th held for the wind this time and cut the crotch of the X.  The 2 in the X were definitely < .5 MOA.  It's been a couple of years since I shot HP so I had forgotten about paying homage to the wind gods.

George & crew, Mike and Marty I really want to thank you all for the outstanding workmanship.  I almost forgot, once I broke out #13 you would have thought I had naked girls at my bench cause there was a whole bunch of drooling guys that wanting to touch it, I let some get lucky.  Hell, if I'd thought faster I would have put a garter on the stock for them to put dollar bills into.

Well you're probably bored from this and I'm tire so I'll simply call it a night.  Next time out though I got to learn to work the rod with the left arm else I might end up lob-sided.

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 04:23:22 (ZULU)


Lito and da gang; a while back I mentioned that the side focus should have range marks on it and my disatisfaction with the M3.   Shouts from the audience,(real snipers) put me down so I dropped it. Lito is quite right in my opinion, in everything he says about the subject on both different focuses parallax and rear are two different things. OR we are both wrong as I have been instructing people for 25 years in the manner described by Lito.  

There again, I challenge the notion that properly focused scopes will shoot different zero for different people. I would rather believe it is holding differences and bagging or other variables rather than the focus either front or rear.

So the squirrel was eating your RG-8u? I hate it when they do that.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 04:31:54 (ZULU)


Rick said.........

"OK Lito, slap me stupid.  I need clarification on this one.  You say that if I focus the reticle for my eye and then set the parallax, and then, if Gooch uses my weapon and then sets the reticle to his eye then the parallax remains the same?  I always thought that the function of the reticle and parallax was to get them on the "same focal plane" and if the reticle is changed to a new focal plane then the target focus must be shifted to the same plane.  Reason why, at times, the scope will be parallex free but target NOT in focus, reticle not in focus.  Or am I missing something here?

Dumb old man scratching head.

Rick

Rick              

Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 03:31:49 (ZULU)

Rick,

I always thought that parallax was set at the factory.....the focus knob was for FINE tuning, to take out a bit more parallax....( for longer/different ranges, and different power settings).

The reticle, I always thought, was specific to the individual...

I have never bought or used one, that had been set, by someone else that did NOT have to be adjusted for MY eyesight.

Lito' is the optics guru, and I am even older, and WAY more  dummer n you....((;.......so, I need more edjumactaion also.

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 04:36:20 (ZULU)



I just ran Steve~Hockeyref's 45 grain of old Varget vs 45 grain of new Varget data.  

Ho:  Old and new are same speed.

Ha:  Old is faster than new.

Results:

Old mean bullet speed:  2751

New mean bullet speed: 2641

P=0.0000000000000000000000000000000096 (9.5886E-33)  Which is the chance of this occurring by accident.

Conclusion:  Old is faster than new.

Get this:

Ho:  Old variance is the same as new.

Ha:  Old and new variances are different.

Results:

Old variance: (standard deviation squared) 45  (Which is superb!)

New variance: 150.8  (Which isn't.)

Chance of this occurring by accident:

0.000860156  (About 1,000 to 1)

Conclusion:  Old is more uniform than new.

If you simply lose bullet speed, you can use more powder.  The variance is a much more serious matter.

For the difference in means I used the excel t-test for populations with different variances.  For testing the difference in variances I used the excel F-test.  I usually use SAS or SPSS, but this problem isn't a big enough deal to bother using either.  

If Steve's data is right (and I'd bet it is), it's time to start looking for an alternative to Varget.

Damn it.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 05:03:12 (ZULU)


'lito

I know who JR is and respect his knowledge as much as anyone.  If I made a mistake putting 25 lightly loaded rounds of Final Finish through my tube, then I'll be the one paying for it.

JR- thanks for your input on this subject.

My SCLE rifle still shoots like a dream in my hands its definitely sub .75 MOA and probably sub .5 MOA.  Friday I shoot a 600yd any rifle any sight match at Camp Pendleton so we'll see how I do with it at 600

Ted Email this member See this member's profile
San Diego, CA, - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 05:10:13 (ZULU)


Gents (and Rick, too),

Don't know 1 percent of what 'lito has forgotten about optics. This is strictly anecdotal......

When I loaned any of my rifles to my pal from England when he was visiting, I insisted that he check the 100 yd. zero for his eyes. It was always at least a inch to the left. Always had to re-zero for him. Zero is off a bit when the Child Bride fires any of my rifles, too.

Maybe it's cheek weld, my old eyes, my glasses......who knows.

IMHO, NO ONE should trust a zero on a rifle that someone else has sighted in, anymore that they should change ammo and assume that the new load will have the same zero.

Whoever I talked to in TX some time ago re: Gonzales Banner, give me a shout. Just ordered one to fly under the Gadsden.

Happy Mother's Day to all you gals who have put up with our ****.

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 05:54:25 (ZULU)



Dang... it's 4:30 AM.  Why am I on this steeenkin' board?

-

Rickster...

>"OK Lito, slap me stupid."<

OK ;)

>" I need clarification on this one.  You say that if I focus the reticle for my eye and then set the parallax, and then, if Gooch uses my weapon and then sets the reticle to his eye then the parallax remains the same?"<

Yup... that's jus' what I said.  If you set parallax properly (head bobbin technique), and then give it too Gooch (he'll probably break it ;)... and he bobs his head, he will see no movement of the target/reticle unit... whether or not he focus' the eyepiece.

Now... if you see the reticle sharp, and the target fuzzy, you MUST have parallax.

Here's what you do with one of your sniper babies tomorrow.

Take a scoped rifle and lay it out on some bags.  Tell your student to first focus the eyepiece by backing it all the way out (CCW), and then going in 1/4 turn at a time til the reticle is sharp.  Then tell him to set the parallax adjustment by bobbin' his head til tere is no movement of the target/reticle... then you lookie in, and bob your head.

If your student is any good, there will be NO movement... even if you don't re-focus your eyepiece.  If there IS movement, then fail him and send him back to cookin' school ;)

>"I always thought that the function of the reticle and parallax was to get them on the "same focal plane"..."<

Yes, exactly...

>"... and if the reticle is changed to a new focal plane then the target focus must be shifted to the same plane.

No... the reticle is NEVER changed.  it is the ONLY fixed thing in the scope.  It is the IMAGE formed by the objective that moves.

Think of it this way.  The reticle is in the middle.  The objective is in the front, and the eyepiece is in the back (I know that's obvious, but bare with me).

The eyepiece is focused on the reticle so you can see it.  The technique of bringing the eyepiece all the way out, and then going in 1/4 turn at a time til it is sharp has REAL purpose.  It forces the eye to be looking out at infinity while you are getting it focused.  If you start from the other end, the eye muscles can force the eye to get a false focus (like when reading something 8" in front of you), and then the eye will have a hard time in the field.

OK... now your eye is only focused on the reticle.  If the scope looks at things at different ranges, the formed image falls in different places.  Like a 35mm camera... you focus on the babe's boobs, and she moves away, you have to re-focus... you get them sharp, and she moves closer, and you have to re-focus.

Same with a scope... the target is at 100yds, and you set the objective for no parallax and then look at a new target at 400 yds, you have to re-focus the objective lens again... in the scope, you are always trying to bring the image of the target "TO" the reticle, and that is only done with the objective.

>"Reason why, at times, the scope will be parallex free but target NOT in focus, reticle not in focus.

If the reticle is not in focus, it's the fault of the eyepiece being out of focus, and you need to go back and fucus it.

If the target is out of focus, and the reticle IS in focus, you have parallax.  Anytime you are in doubt, just set the rifle on something steady, and bob your head... if the target and reticle aren't locked rock solid together... you gots parallax halitosis ;)

>"Or am I missing something here?"<

Missing something... HA! you ol' sly fox.  You jus' want me to take typing lessons at 5 in the morning :(

-

'yote Bate...

>"There again, I challenge the notion that properly focused scopes will shoot different zero for different people. I would rather believe it is holding differences and bagging or other variables rather than the focus either front or rear."<

Bill... I'm with you on that last part.  I hear guys say that they can't hit dead on with someone else's stick.  I say Phooyie to that.  Maybe for some casual guys that have bad shooting habbits... but a "skilled" (aka "Hardned") riflemen should be able to shoot another "skilled" rifleman's properly sighted rifle and hit dead on from bags.

Anything less, is lack of shooting skills.

>"So the squirrel was eating your RG-8u? I hate it when they do that."<

Naw... the little shits got into the soffits (sp?).  They'd have parties (and not even invite me :(, and run all through the walls of house at all hours in the middle of the night, raisin' hell, making more babies, an' waking me up about eleventeen hundred times.  I tried to shoot them, but couldn't get them in the sights from the office window.

So I spoke to M25, and he sent me a 5cc vial of almond flavored "anti-squirrel dust" ;)  All is peaceful now :)))

-

Glockamole'...

>"I always thought that parallax was set at the factory."<

NO!!! Only on fixed focus hunting scopes.

>"...the focus knob was for FINE tuning, to take out a bit more

parallax.."<

No... the "focus" knob (please call this knob the parallax knob so as not to confuse it with focusing the eyepiece)... isn't for "fine tuning", it is for the tuning range from 30 yds to infinity... that's the WHOLE tuning range.

>"..( for longer/different ranges, and different power settings)."<

The power has nothing to do with it... the power changes come AFTER the optical section that deals with parallax, so the parallax can't be affected by it.

>"The reticle, I always thought, was specific to the individual."<

The "EYEPIECE" setting is specific to the individual...

>"I have never bought or used one, that had been set, by someone else that did NOT have to be adjusted for MY eyesight."<

That's is the eyepiece setting.

Lito' is the optics guru, and I am even older, and WAY more  dummer n you....((;.......so, I need more edjumactaion also."<

You ain't older than me... I'm older than rocks, and the Rickster and 'yote Bate are fightin' for second place. ;)

You still owe me 50 ;))

-

CDC... nice work on the Varget thingie

-

HEY YOUZ GUYS WITH VARGET CHANGES... Hodgdon says that nobody is telling them about lower velocities with current lots of Varget.

All youz guys that have data, call them at 913-362-9455, or send them an e-mail at <help@hodgdon.com> and sock it to them.

Me... I'm lookin' forward to testing "Tac".

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 10:38:25 (ZULU)


'Lito said:

"Dang... it's 4:30 AM.  Why am I on this steeenkin' board?"

Preaching to the great unwashed - and thanks for the sermon. Your explanation of which adjustment does what will enable my feeble old brain to retain the information. Understanding the principle is a lot better than just memorizing. I owe you at least a beer.

Do let us know about the Tac powder. It might meter better than Varget, too, and when I shoot up this 8 pound jug, I might want to switch.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 13:08:57 (ZULU)


Is Tac powder 'ball' or 'stick?'

Larry

(Sharon)

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A! - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 13:57:09 (ZULU)


Talking with some Hi Power shooters - High Masters\Distinguished riflemen\pres 100 types .... some have already played with TAC and they're saying it's the "second coming of Varget"..... Meters well, good velocities and groups and stuff... definitely gonna check it out out since I only have about 8# of RE15 left (enough for thisseason in the AR) and probably 20# of pulldown I4895 - hmmmmmmmmm any younze bumz got .308 data for the pulldown stuffie... I can get the lot # when I get home.... got good velocities out of it for .223 with 80's....

RE Varget.... I'll send them what I have..... I want to get my paws on a NEW 1# jug to compare with these two lots and if it acts like the "new lot", well the writing's on the Rostah!

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 13:58:04 (ZULU)


Sharon...

"Tac" is ball powder.  It has been reported (by someone that I have some faith in), that it is temperature stable (8fps change from the 30's to 80 degrees), and that it is clean burning.  The more I hear about it from experenced long range shooters, the better it sounds.  I 'member when Varget hit the scene... the talk and "buzz" was much the same.  There seems to be a growing excitement about this stuff.

Hell, if it's good and we talk about it here, it might become as scarce as Winchester 308 Stealths... HA!  Useta be that Win HBV's and Stealths sat on the shelves... then we started talking about them, and now a 308 Stealth is hard to find like chicken teeth... they can't make them fast enough ;)))

I left ball powders because they were very poor in the temperature department, often showing a 100 to 125fps change from 40 degrees to the 80's... and they were notorously dirty.

I have liked Varget, though my most recent loads have wide ES and SD spreads... but it's too soon to make a conclusion on that.

But I really need a good, stable ball powder, cuz I just set up a commercial loading machine for 308 match, but I need a match grade powder to use in it (Match grade meaning temperature stable, with low ES and SD).

I can't live with the poor performance of stick powder through a volumetric measure.  In this machine, Varget throws with a total spread of upwards of .6 to .7 grains from high to low... a ball powder in the same maching will have a spread of 1/10th grain total (+/- 1/20th).

-

Hockey puck...

Pulldown stuffie is same, same as regular IMR-4895.  Drop 1 grain to check... but IMR-4895 has been very constant over the years.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 14:31:57 (ZULU)


Hey Lito, when you get your commercial press in operation are you gonna start selling rounds or just start shooting more?

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
Alvin, Texas, USA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 14:38:02 (ZULU)


Brian..

Dave is a standup guy in my book!! I have known him for a long time and he is one of the good guys. He's really belives in what he does and builds top notch pistols and rifles. I don't necessarly agree with his heavy stock design but they are damn stout and do what he says they will. He runs one of the best tactical matches in the country for just plain damn tough shooting in realistic conditions. Tell him I said "Hi" if you talk to him.

Jr..

 Hows things you old whore dog!! I don't have the specs for the reamer but was told it was a pacific reamer for Norma match chamber. It has a .297 neck dia. not sure on the base size the throat is shorter though than my Pac Nor chambered barrel was.

Chris..

 Not a tight neck, but built to the tight side of the specs. on the standard match chamber. Jerry is a BR shooter and verrrry paticular on his chambers being right on.

 The Hornady brass is not to impressive so far. It falls in between my two lots of Norma for weight and where one lot takes 53grs of powder and the other 54 this will probably fall in the 53 to 53.5 range.

 The neck has a lip around the very edge of the case mouth and when you load it, you can't chamber it!! SOoooo.. I pulled some more bullets and had to trim the mouth of the case back to take out the little lip left from the factory cut.

 I will try to get it broke in tonight and then load some VV-550 with Jrs specs and let you know what it does...

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 15:01:36 (ZULU)


Lito - It may have been a mistake to mix the squirrels a 'jonestown' cocktail in the spring... fall is usually the time to do that.

When things get warm this summer, if you start to smell something bad in the walls, try a little VICs vapo-rub under the nostril (old medic trick for unpleasant odors)

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 15:06:30 (ZULU)


Lito(or anyone else who can answer),

If your rifle is zerod and you wanted to check the focus of your reticle again by backing out and adjusting the eye piece will it throw off your zero at all? I would think not as you're not moving the reticle only focusing on it but I thought I'd ask. Man I feel stupid doing it ;)

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 15:09:59 (ZULU)



Tony Burkes...

>"... are you gonna start selling rounds or just start shooting more?"<

Maybe, and YES!

When they passed the Brady bill, one of the hidden things in it gave the BATF power to refuse FFL's based on zoning... in that one pen stroke, the dems wiped out about 80% of the small gunshops and small makers in the country, and raised the overhead on all the rest.

Before that, it made no difference as long as the neighbors didn't complain.  When it passed, I asked the town for a variance and when they heard "BATF" and "EXPLOSIVES", they said "No Way, fuzzy Jose'"  (At that point, I thought it useless to tell them that I already had about 400# of powder in the basement :(

So I'm working on finding an industrial space, but it's tough, cuz rents here are out of sight... and I LOVE to work at home.  I've run all my other business' out of the house, and it's great to be making money in your pink bunny slippers ;))  What I wanna do is get my Gun dealer to rent me 20 sq ft in the corner for a $1 a month so I can get the Manufacturing FFL, and then run the operation out of the basemant... but who knows?

-

Medicjim... they never got back into the house... that shit is F-A-S-T!!

-

FireDude...

It won't hurt a thing... your zero is good to go.  And not a stupid question.

-

'lito - (Off to shoot for the day.  The Russian and me are gonna practice at being last... HA! ;))

P.S... any of youz guys want to read the threads on "Tac" go to these (in order).  LTR's notes and comments are well done, and he isn't sloppy, so I take his information with some degree of confidence.

Part - 1

http://207.36.15.177/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000377

Part - 2

http://207.36.15.177/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000425#000005

Part - 3

http://207.36.15.177/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000553

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 15:39:23 (ZULU)


Packing day!

'Lito, the 2001 and 2002 batches of Black Hills Mk 262 (77 grain) 5.56 Match used TAC.  I understand this year's lot has a higher charge/velocity, as last year's was kinda wimpy and burned a little dirty/sooty.

Kinda bummed hearing about the Varget variance.  When I finish the last 10 pounds I think I'm going to give Reloader 15 a go.

Sinister Dave Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 17:21:00 (ZULU)


The powder for the .300RUM I was trying to think of,  was not H-1000 although that works fairly well.  It was REL 25. Factory barrel give about .5 moa on this particular Sendero. The jury is still out on the PSS.

The "Benchmark" we used was quite good and might be worth a look if VARGET is getting scary although it too is made by Hodgdon it seems to deliver accuracy and burns quite nicely and clean.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 17:35:35 (ZULU)


Sinister Dave....

For the RE15 you'll use pretty much the same loads you used for Varget... Actually performed better than my "old lot" of Varget.

I'm shooting 24.5gr behind the 77smk, LC case, Rem 7 1/2 primer (same load for 80smk's).

Side note, 25.3gr behind a nekid JLK 90 @ 2700fps OAL 2.850" - same components as the 77smk.

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 18:12:21 (ZULU)



I can vouch for what Bill said about Hodgdon's H-1000 and the .300 RUM; my rifle seems to really like 94.0 grains of that, and the Sierra 200 matchking.

That runs 19 MOA @ 1000, from a 100 yard zero.  But it thumps a little more than some of the lighter target rounds [on both ends].  The BC of Sierra's bullets is a hair conservative, based on my testing, since the load is chrono'd at 3295, and Infinity 5 suggests 20.73 MOA to 1000.

I have also noticed this about thier other bullets, including the 175 smk.  Several of the serious HP shooters seem to have noted the same thing, but I'm not in their league (and I'm an F-class guy, anyway, ha!)

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 18:12:36 (ZULU)


Ramshot TAC powder......

In the year 2000, Mr. Pete Forras of Ramshot gave out alot of TAC for free at the Super Shoot in Ohio.....

Myself and two other top BR shooters ran our test powder thru the ringer hoping to find a replacement for the dwindling supply of "T" (T, T32, T322...an old powder made by Thunderbird) powder.....

At first, TAC acted very much like T....even with temperature and humidity variations.  THEN, we bought some of the next lot number......it was nothing like what we had, and two of us could never get the stuff to shoot well enough again to have confidence in it......

This info was tested in 6ppc's....and group shooting....but, accuracy is accuracy no-matter what its shot from !!!

Markwell.......has Brock finished building the Ark for us to get around in this weekend !!!!!! I actually hope it snows again !!!!!

JRMoore

JRMoore Email this member See this member's profile
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 18:35:23 (ZULU)



Lito,

         If you and the rooskie have to practice for last place, Steve and me should be shoo-ins. We don't need practice.

william e bierbower Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 19:00:19 (ZULU)


The way you guys are talking, someone throwing rocks might come in first place at ASC#2.  Now if even one of you was telling the truth, it would be comforting....

I'm really looking forward to the fun.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 19:10:43 (ZULU)



Ramshot Magnum (then BigBoy)was one of the first powders tested by the AMU for the 6.5-284 a couple years ago(99,00?).  Don't know if they still use it, this was really early in the testing process.  Was discussing it on the line with a few of the guys.  First loads were reportedly really filthy until they turned the wick up.  Not surprising IMO, it's that way for most powders.

I like RL15 a lot for 223 and 308Win.

A couple guys were asking about 280AI and 308 155A-max loads so here's what I use.  308 A-max(155gn) is 44.5gns of N140 in a Winchester case, 210M primer, loaded to 2.850 OAL.  This is a Palma load, but it's pretty tame IMO.  Clocking 2960fps from 30" Kreiger barrel.  280AI load testing is incomplete, barely even started actually.  Playing with RL22 and looking very hard at IMR7828 and also N165.  RL22 is currently at 57.0gn with 168JLK's seated to 0.001 off the lands.  This is a 280AI 40degree shoulder with a short throat.  And this is a tame load that I haven't chrono'd yet, but accuracy looks OK.  Cases are formed with 45.0gns of IMR 4895 and Nosler 120gn BT's.  Accuracy is good, I might use this on P-dogs and making brass concurrantly.  S/F...Ken M    

 

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 19:11:57 (ZULU)



Hey Jim.... I'll have you know that I'm bringin' a "wrist rocket" and ball bearings for backup! HA!

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 19:20:40 (ZULU)


Sinister, you are going from deviation, to DIRTY......

That stuff is BAD.

"When I finish the last 10 pounds I think I'm going to give Reloader 15 a go."

Sinister Dave

John,

On the Infinity program, I have noticed the same exact thing on .308/175's.........

To get a more realistic come up( real world#'s), whatever MOA's you get, at whatever range, divide them by 1.047.......

20.73~1.047= 19.79 moa,, closer to your real #'s.

Two Shoes

           

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 19:31:43 (ZULU)


I have used RL15 since 1997, also N140.  Can strongly recommend either powder for the 223 in service rifle.  RL15 gives you a little more velocity IME.  Have never had any problems with dirty.  Never even gave it any consideration.  Gun cleans up with five-eight patches after a 88rd match using Hoppes BR-9 and ten-15 minutes of soak time.  Non-issue IMO.  Much better than the Win 748 I used to use with 69SMK's before 75 Hornady BTHP's came on scene.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 19:42:57 (ZULU)


Ken,

Incoming RE 90's no attatchments .... more later when I have time.....

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 20:37:14 (ZULU)


Dos Zapatos,

You are absolutely right, some programs don't seem to use the actual MOA formula, but I5 shows the bullet path @ 1k as 217.08, which shows that they are deriving the MOA correctly.

I think they just don't want to get burned by being 'over optimistic' and getting negative press because of it.  As well, some exterior ballistic programs do not seem to take into account the changing BC, and Sierra seems to work on that model.

I don't know that much about this, but it seems like I have to dial less dope on (than what they predict) with whatever bullet, 142 smk in .260, etc. as well.

The lesson I took out of this some time ago was 'predictions are fine, but log books are the real answer'.  But that's just my opinion.

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 21:10:14 (ZULU)


Focus and zero - I'm with 'lito on this one - mostly cuz he knows this stuff and I don't.  But there is one minor caveat.

When you zero a rifle, you zero it not only for the ammo being fired, but also for your body mass as it influences the recoil behavior of the rifle.  When someone of substantially different mass, or different body twist under recoil, shoots that rifle, his POI will be different than yours.  Even if he's doing everything by the book.

That rifle is recoiling before the bullet leaves the muzzle, and the amount of recoil rise/twist will be impacted by the mass of the shooter behind it and/or his hold.

Mike

BMG Mike Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 21:40:03 (ZULU)


I probably didn't elaborate enough Mike but that's precisely what I was saying yesterday. When you don't shoot in the same optics to the same place with parallax adjusted correctly and focus for clear look at the reticle it's a matter of hold more than anything else or twigger twitch if you will.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 21:55:52 (ZULU)


yotebait sed:

Since U.S.Optics and Unertl seem to faded.

Bill see:

http://www.unertloptics.com/

Apparently they aren't down & out.  Offering the 10X USMC scope to the public, but cost ya 2,500 clams

Don

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Monday, May 12, 2003, at 22:58:03 (ZULU)



Hold the show.  I just ran Steve~Hockeyref's 45.5 grain old vs new data.

Ho:  Variance old = variance new

Ha:  Variance old < variance new

Result:  The F-test failed to reject Ho.  Not only can I not demonstrate that the variance of the old is less than the variance of the new, but the variance of the old was 183.2367816 and the variance of the new was 138.091954.  That's less, but the test didn't demonstrate that the difference was statistically significant.  P=0.225471435, if anyone cares.

How about that?

Now check this out:

Ho:  Mean bullet speed old = mean bullet speed new

Ha:  Mean bullet speed old > mean bullet speed new

Result:  Reject the hell of Ho.  Average speed of old was 2781.933333.  Average speed of new was 2678.666667.  The probability of the difference being the result of chance is almost exactly zero.

My guess is that 45.5 grains is too hot for Steve's rig and the variances went screwy.

Does anyone else have any ideas?

BTW, my pet load is 44 gr of old Varget and 175 SMKs.  When I worked up the load the variance was far lower than either of these.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 12, 2003, at 23:50:07 (ZULU)


Good grief I feel a headache coming on!!!!!!!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 00:24:18 (ZULU)


william e bierbower...

>"Lito, If you and the rooskie have to practice for last place, Steve and me should be shoo-ins. We don't need practice."<

T-O-O-O-O-O-O LATE!!  I already won last place, and the match hasn't even started :))

I got up at about 4 AM this morning and doodled around a bit.  I got my kit together, got the 6 foot ruler (NOT for my groups, you dumb bunny) to measure the distance of a 40moa change (should be EXACTLY 42").

I got my plum line to check my bubble levels... everything is looking good.

I get my crap by the door, waitin' for the Rooski, and get that nervious feelin' so I open the gun case, and... AND... no bolt!!

I had left it on the bench from cleaning - once before, I went to a match with no bolt :((  (But I hear that everyone does it ONCE :)

So I run down to the sandbox and grab the bolt.

Everything is good now, and I'm feelin' confident, sayin' to myself... "Self, I got my act together, and I got my duckies in a row... We Kewl"!

So the Rooski shows up and we load the Jungle Truck and head off... after about 9 hours of driving through sleet and snow, and tornados, and rain, and hurricanes, we get to the range :)))

We get our crap set up, I lay out my new stick in the bags, and reach for... I reach for... Oh shit!

I ain't gots no ammo :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

So you see... I alread won last place ;)

When you get to the match this Saturday... I'll be the one with the Remington bolt tied around his neck with a pink ribbon, and the two bandolers of 308 match "Taped" to his skin! :((

On Thursday morning, would one of you guys send me an e-mail with the subject line:

"Take your bolt and ammo, DUMMY!"

Thanks ;)

-

MedicJim...

No fair you bringing rocks, it'll give you an advantage ;)

-

BMG Mike...

>"When you zero a rifle, you zero it not only for the ammo being fired, but also for your body mass as it influences the recoil behavior of the rifle."<

That's why I said "Hardned shooters".

-

'lito  (lookin for my boolets and my duckies again ;)

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 00:25:52 (ZULU)


After my last, dismal, F class match I screwed up my courage and tried my luck again.  Didn’t set any records, but second place is a whole bunch better than dead last.  At least the sun is shinning again and there is hope for another day.

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 00:51:02 (ZULU)


'lito - was that a hardened 160 lb shooter, or a hardened 260 lb shooter?

Both can be equally hardened, but by definition they aren't equally massive.

Like I said, I agree - to a first approximation  ;-)

Mike

BMG Mike Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 00:55:25 (ZULU)


JRMoore,,,,,The canoe livery will be open for the match...Flood rates will be in affect!

ASC#2 update

    Rod and I were out over the weekend working on some of the shots for the match.  There's lots of water on the mountain..If we had the match today, you'd all have been wasting your bullets..The wind was blowing 25 -35mph in the valley, according to the radio, hard telling what it was doing up high.  Lots of trees down and some power outages.

Launching boulders from a catapult would have been better than the best stick and handloads.  Anyway, things are shaping up and we think you reprobates will find the shooting fun and challeging.  REMEMBER, with the expanded field of shooters we will have to move along at a pretty good pace...You'd best be organized, able to deploy your gear at the FPs quickly and efficiently, get your data without a lot of dick dancing, dial with confidence and get your shot off.  Follow up shots, we know you wont need any, but, will be required within 10 seconds of the first.  All on that for now..See you all soon

Assorted musings on some past topics and posts.

 Read with interest the reloading thread and it occurred to me, once again, that most of my ammo is obviously way below standard.  My old 700PSS, transplanted into a VS stock several years ago, digests nothing but but my handloads and after reading the 12 step loading process {or was it 15??} I grabbed 5 rounds and ran up to the bench to shoot the first group through the rifle in about two years, as I mainly shoot my LTR now.  Ran a patch throught the bore first.  Amazed the ammo even went bang, the group size, including CBS was about .75".   Saturday, as Rod and I couldn't work on the match because of rain, we were at the shop having a bit of refreshment and discussing my lack of loading sophistication.  During a lull in the rain, I told Rod we'd go do another test..Took the old PSS and Rods' SCLE rifle up to the bench with 10 of my loads..PSS group size was .75 with 4 shots into .460.  SCLE put 5 into 1.5" with 4 going .75" {this rifle shoots bug holes with Fed match George, don't worry}..By now your saying "What's the point?"   Well, here's the Allegheny mt version of the 15 steps to handloading good ammo..Step one; tumble once fired Federal brass until shiny.  Step two; run through Dillon 550B and watch loaded cartridges pile up.  Step three; Go shoot. The load is 45gr 748 over win primers, with 168SMKs on top.  The load performs well enough and I do have time to shoot. Is all that trouble really worth a .135", or whatever , group size reduction guys??????  Ducking for cover!!!!!!!!!!!

outa here

 

Markwell Email this member See this member's profile
The Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 01:28:43 (ZULU)



OK, so this is one bug that hasn't bit me yet. No cowboy shooting for me.

And the kittywhacker thinks he's going to be whom? James Coburn?

I'll make you a deal. You be Steve McQueen, I'll be Yul Brynner. You get to ride shotgun on the hearse.

And yes Mr. Insain, that's why the chicks dig me LOL

Just checking in guys, just checking in.

Don't much care for checking in. I find out Varget is in the dumpsters and Rick is OLD.

Tac on cereal. Blech.

Jaeger Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 01:52:23 (ZULU)


Good grief I feel a headache coming on!!!!!!!

Bolt              

NC, - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 00:24:18 (ZULU)

Bolt, take to Primpro's, and call me in the morning.........LOL

Ken M,

On the RL 15, can't speak to it in 5.56.........

In .308's, compared to IMR 4064 / Varget, it has been a dirty powder for me, N-140, is good to go........

Good powder for .308's as well.

What is your experience with it as far as temp sensitivity???(RL15).

Seems the LC boyeez, are fissin' to start using it, if not already.

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 02:42:54 (ZULU)



CDC - I'll add some more WFT to the mix......

This was from the first crono session on 4\12\03 as I was working my way up to 2685 - or so I thought.... Just to add to the mix... I used the 45 grain load (NEW LOT) to shoot a 391-13x (193-4x, 198-9x) at a 600 yard f-class match 4/26/03 - AND I shot both strings w\o a rear rest ('cept for my hand) and went medium Alice pack front rest on the first string and bipod front the second......

44GR NEW VARGET 44.5GR NEW VARGET

2620               2649

2621               2645

2613               2628

2632               2608

2602               2650

2621               2615

2614               2604

2627               2618

2631               2639

2614               2626

To hell with it... close enough on the columns.,..

I am so confused - or is that depressed - right now....... I know my crony ain't in the same league as an Oehler 35P(sp) but now I'm doubting it could get the correct velicity from a nocturnal emission after a week of blue balls! It does look like shit is getting seriously goofy as the load gets more and more compressed..... any ideas here?? Any one got a cam for a 175 @ 2600 in yards or furlongs????

And youz bumz thought I was joking about bringing a sling shot for backup... At this point I have no idea what load I'm taking south.... I might just dump the powder into a bowl, scoop it out with the case and shake it out 'til it's 'bout half way up the shoulder and stuff a boolit in.... Then again, that may just BE ...... NEVER MIND .... VERY SCARY THOUGHT THERE!

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 03:33:56 (ZULU)



>>>>>.OK, so this is one bug that hasn't bit me yet. No cowboy shooting for me.<<<<<<<

Jaeger Dudeski,

Think on this:

1. You get to shoot lost of BGs.

2. Seeing the Gals in corsets is worth the trip. ((((Take lots of pictures. They don't mind posing. Thas why they dressed that way! ;)))

3. Forget about winning first place cuz, you're there for the fun.

*** I still remember very well shooting Clint Smith's Bucket of Blood Saloon @ Fredericksburg, Texas. He was playing a bar keep...but with a Kevlar vest. LOL. ***

All this talk of CAS got me primed to watch Quigley Down Under again tonight. Got a friend that looks and dresses like "Quigley" and has done so long before the movie came out. Yep, he's got several Sharps as well.

--

BTW, welcome back, Jaeger and thanks for the update :)) Did Moe get his rifle finished? If so, we need an update.

--

All the talk about Varget has my head spinning. Should I look for old lots of 8# jugs (if so then what year or lot numbers) or go on to something else. I was hoping that Varget would remain the Holy Grail :(((( Sheeeesh.

--

Mk4

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, God Bless America, United States of America - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 03:46:56 (ZULU)


Hey, any one going to ASC#2 that wants to compare these two lots of Varget and give CDC your numbers .... I'll bring the original jugs and a smaller 1# container to transfer some of the new stuff into....

Please take it and shoot it over your crono for the sake of my sanity!

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 03:55:19 (ZULU)


Well, I'm pissed. Got an email tonight with the subject line "Premium Cartridges for Less!" Hot dog, thought I - someone's having an ammo sale!

Nope. Ink jet printer cartridges. Getting someone's hopes up that way constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 03:55:26 (ZULU)


MK4,

You n' about a 100,000 other shooters.......

This is really gonna PP in Hodgdon's cereal......)):

I happen to have a few #'s  of the OLD stuff.....

But, it's of little consolation, knowing it's gonna maybe be the last..

Da' boyeez, at Hodgdons, had best get a move on, this could really ruin their year.

Not good.

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 03:59:07 (ZULU)


Steve~Hockeyref:

Ho:  Variance 44gr=variance 44.5 gr

Ha:  Variance 44gr<variance 44.5 gr

Reject Ho.  Variance of 44 gr is less than variance of 44.5 gr.  Variance of 44 gr = 84.27777778.  Variance of 44.5 =287.0666667(!!!)

P=0.041109649

Conclusion:  There appears to be bad things associated with that last .5 grains.  Variance of 84 means that sd is about 9fps.  That means about 95% of your rounds will be +/- 18fps.  That will do.

Ho:  Mean bullet speed 44gr=mean bullet speed 44.5gr

Ha:  Mean bullet speed 44gr<mean bullet speed 44.5gr

Fail to reject Ho.  This data does not indicate that 44.5gr has significantly higher mean bullet speed than 44gr.  44.5 gr mean = 2628.2.  44 gr mean = 2619.5.  P=0.087654596.

Go with 44 gr.  2620 fps +/- 18 fps looks like what you've got.

This analysis is sort of sloppy.  The conclusions are OK, but the write-up ain't for s**t.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 04:20:47 (ZULU)


Jaeger ole chap; hows everything in the black forest? Good to hear ya sport.

Lito' I feel your pain. I once (was it a long time ago?) took the bolt out of my rifle because of seedy characters roaming the neighborhood and I didn't have a safe. After searching for 2 weeks I found it in the camper and it hadn't moved from where I left it. Going to the range without bullets .. is a minor offense. Last week end we came in from hunting once because I only had 10 rounds in the Blackhawk once and and again the next day because I had .308 instead of 22-250. SOP around here.

A blue haze filled the valley of green wheat and irrigation sprinklers tonight as I winged my way in from a country cruise in my ole 92 Chevy. I saw her in the alfalfa field sitting on her haunches as I turned down Linda Rhonstat on the tape deck saying something about when she would be loved or not. Easing the old rig to a stop, the power window slipped into it's sheath and I realized that there was no shot unless I eased out and laid the 22-250 over the hot hood. Bringing the forend up on my clenched fist to gain the last half inch of elevation I watched her raise her body out of the green carpet and start slowly away. I sent my best bark after her and she turned and stopped as the scope settled about 2 inches above her back. I saw for the first time her swollen sides and slick hair. Not today old girl, as I took off the pound of pressure off the trigger. Make me a new litter for next fall. I lifted the bolt and sat for just a moment watching her slink away looking back when she thought it was safe enough, watching to see what I was really up too. I muttered something about, see ya later old sister and turned away ejecting the round and turning up Linda again. I face into the red glow of the Kansas sunset as the sun sank in red splendor somewhat disgusted at my behavior I'm sure, or maybe embarrassed by it's own failures having brought us all another Monday of trials and problems.  The desert sank into darkness as the powerfull drone of the engines of the great pumps sang the plains into darkness and all I could do was listen to Linda and watch.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 04:28:09 (ZULU)


re: left the bolt or ammo behind

For IPSC matches, I have a mantra when checking my gear before a match - gun, mags, ammo, ears, holster. I take other stuff, but those aren't negotiable.  Might want to make your own mantra for rifle matches...  

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 05:05:56 (ZULU)



so it's come to this

Vintage powders...

"I can offer you 8 lbs of 1999 Varget.  It's an excellent lot with a delicate bouquet.  Our discerning customers find it far superior to the 2002."

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 05:16:59 (ZULU)


Bill,

Good composition. I hope you're cultivating that writing skill onto a higher level. A little bit of poetic reflection slipping in there too ;)))

Your story reminds me of a deer hunt on the Salt Fork of the Red River in the Texas Panhandle. Beautiful evening, no wind, a picture in the making. Watched a fork horn until he grazed out of sight. Then I saw (what I thought I saw) was Muy Grande. Now, it's getting interesting. All I can see is one side of his horns and they're IMPRESSIVE! I bring up my Pre-64, Mod. 70 300 H&H, get into position, remove the safety and he turns his head to where I can see the other side of his horns and .... THEY'RE NOT THERE!! He's only got one side of his horns!! From the looks of his battle scars, he lost them during a battle, maybe during the rut. S**T!!

I thought this could ONLY happen to me. So, I thought, since I'm not going to shoot you, I'll have some fun with ya. Got my rattling horns and went to work. You know I don't think I've ever seen the look of panic like I did that whitetail buck. He skeedaddled in a plenty big hurry. He obviously didn't want another scrap.

The cap to that evening was watching about a dozen young turkey gobblers pass by my hide heading to a feeder...almost in perfect order. Shoulda had a camcorder instead of a gun with me. There was a fight between the 2 of them that lasted for about 1/2 an hour. One finally whipped the other and then added insult to injury by scratching dirt all over the loser all the while strutting, and yelping, churping and gobbling. Now that was entertainment.

Never fired a round that evening and had the time of my life. Guess I'm getting old like you guys ;)))) Well, at least I didn't forget my ammo. Hehe.

--

Mk4

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, God Bless America, United States of America - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 05:18:08 (ZULU)


I have my 782 gear in the trunk of the car.  As long as I bring the rifle, everything else is covered.  

My range uses a card key to admit you.  I have left that at home once.  Only once.  Pain is the best teacher.

I'm so glad I'm a Varget refusnik right now;-)  That IMR 4895 pulldown at +/-$60/8lbs is looking really good.  Spend $500 and have enough powder to last until the next iceage.    

S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 05:18:50 (ZULU)


Varget...

I won't go into to details, but, I fired 56 rounds today to fireform some new brass and the variations were scary. Accuracy appears ok at 100 but the velocity changes are gonna make anything over 600 a crap shoot. :((( One round was 2890??? 44.5 grs. Low end was 2613. I was thinking the same thing as Steve, maybe the chrono has had one muzzle blast to many.

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 11:20:07 (ZULU)


Lito,

Don't feel bad I almost forgot my bolt the other day. I pulled it to swab the oil out the bore and then just put my rifle in the drag bag. Luckily I turned around and saw it laying on the chair. I always check that I have two things...rifle and ammo. Everything else I don't worry about as they have extra ear plugs at the range which is the only other thing I would really need. I'll send you an e-mail on Thursday to remind you ;))

We'll be leaving about 3 or 4 am to get down to WV hopefully around noon or so. Where are you staying? We'll be at Yokums. No camping as the wife is coming with me and looking at the weather forcast it's probably for the better. See you down there.

Firedude

PS I'm going to be last so don't anyone else try to take my spot! ;)

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 12:15:01 (ZULU)



Glocckamole' and John...

The Sierra program gives you drops in "inches" you have to convert them to MOA's yourself.  That may be why you think the program has errors.

-

FireDude...

Me and the Rooski are staying at Yokums too.  Didn't want to deal with the camping thing either.  As Andy's Dad pointed out: "A hot shower and a warm bed feels good after trompin' through the brush all day!"

When you say "leaving at 3 or 4 AM does that mean Ledyard time or other people's time ?? ;)

We want to leave early too.  Maybe we can hook up at the MacDonnalds at exit 5 with Frank at 5 AM?  Ya' think?

-

If tomorrows patients are light, I might be able to get a quick run at the range again... otherwise I'll go to the match cold.  (I'll bring rocks ;)

-

Ruggus Rattus woke up in the middle of the night and barfed his brains out.  Spent an hour cleanin' up :(

Does a parent ever get any sleep ?

Well... I'll show that little booger not to wake me up again... he's gettin' punished today.

He has to stay in bed all day and watch cartoons!  That'll teach him not to get sick in the middle of the night!  So there ;)

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 12:31:08 (ZULU)


Weather this AM: 43 degrees, winds NW@ 25-35 on the high ridges, Sunny skies. Heading for the mountain today to see how many trees came down yesterday..Bet I have to cut my way up to the cabin where round two starts! Five days to go. Fore!

 Is all this talk of last place negative visualization?

 outa here

 

Markwell Email this member See this member's profile
the Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 12:55:44 (ZULU)



OK fellas, looks like July 1st (Teusday) is firmed up for the Scope Test.

Attached below is a note with the agenda. One day gig for those that can make it. He only wants about ten guys. Each will fire ten shots.

Sooo ... if you want to come to this thing and are really serious about it, hit me offline. I will probably need some alternates also so you guys let me know what you want to do.

I will be contacting some SWAT folk too so lemme know ...

Note from John Osborn:

Brian,

We will use the 100 yard line to verify the capability of the rifle

and user(s). We will have them move to the 600 yard line, chronograph

rifles and prepare targets and notes. We will establish their elevation requirements and stand by for a wind call. They must fire within two seconds of the call. We will run the target and place a spotter. We will repeat this process 10 times then change rifle and shooter.

I would say no more than 10 different rifles and shooters.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 13:16:32 (ZULU)



Negative visualazition.... NAAAHH!!!! Just bracing for the possible reality of going to a match with all UKD targets and loads that you you have absolutely no confidence in.....

CDC as a side note, I am getting near 100% capacity\compressed loads at about 44.2grains or so.... could be that the Newer Lot don't want to give us the velocity the Old lot did with a reasonable charge volume and goes goofy when compressed?

Hey 'lito are those rocks weighed and matched????

I believe that Bill and I are staying at Yokums too.... will the place ever be the same? Looking at about a 3:00 - 4:00 pm arival...

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 13:18:52 (ZULU)



Chris..

  I went to the range with 20 rounds loaded for the 6.5x284 using the Hornady brass. I had to use the cleaning rod to get the first two rounds out of the gun so quit and went home.

  I don't know what the hell the problem is, I can't believe the chamber is in specs when you can't even shoot new brass in the gun without resizing it. I bought a new FL resizer yesterday and ran my old brass through it and it still won't chamber in the rifle. I then ran a couple of the new Hornady cases through it and tried them. There was not much differnece between them and the ones I hit with the bump die so I don't know if I should risk loading more of them or not. I am getting tired of loading only to pull the damn bullets and start over.

  I may order 50rds of new Norma brass and try it and see what it does. I have heard of tight chambers but this is rediculous!!! Maybe the load was to hot but the brass shows no pressure signs and the primers are just like they went in no flattening or pitting.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 14:26:28 (ZULU)


I skipped the gym this morning and packed my ruck for this weekend.  It seemed a little too heavy so I pulled out my Gortex pants.  I think I'll put them back in........with some fleece and a watch cap.  At least we won't have to worry about heat injuries or snakes.  I was sure to pack plenty of Slim-Jims, Grainola Bars and Beef Jerkey so at least I won't go hungry out there.

High winds and wet weather makes the whole exercise more interesting.  I figure if it get's real bad we can always buy a deck of cards and a six-pack and talk about shooting.

It's grey, wet and cold here today with a 10-15 mph wind.  I should go outside and practice but I'm not going to.  I don't want anybody to think I take this stuff too seriously......

Last night Andy decided his reticle was crooked so he dismounted his scope to adjust it.  Mind you this was after shooting a 196-4X at 1,000 yards this weekend.  Now he'll have to rezero......go figure.

We're also looking forward to listening to some good Tom Clancey books on CD during the drive.  If there is a bad part to all of this I haven't found it yet.

See you there....Yokum's (Home away from home.)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 14:47:06 (ZULU)



Pat,

I know you have indicated that the chamber is not a tight neck but it still might be possible that the brass you have is to thick for minimum chamber spec's.  Have you tried to chamber a sized piece of brass, without a bullet, that was run through a standard die but didn't have the expander installed?  That would leave the neck smaller than normal.  I am thinking that this may help determine if the the chamber is tight in the neck or cut short and hitting on the shoulder.  Sight black on the case before chambering may also help show where it is sticking.

Re: Sierra Infinity Program and Inch or MOA output

I haven't upgraded to the new version but my 2.5 version will give you choice of output in inches or MOA for bullet path and wind drift but not drop (it's inches) but for come-up tables wouldn't the bullet path be what you want?  What I wish it would do is allow for mixed MOA instead of having to choose between 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 or 1 MOA so the printout would have the correct elevation and windage figures.

Probably not much help but figured I would pass along the info anyway.

Later,

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 14:51:22 (ZULU)



Pat,

The Hornady brass WILL stick in your chamber.  Check this thread out: http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=33&t=492&hl=hornady&s=587cd10dfa1b8fa3684a34ced764f8b6 .  My bet is that your chamber is for a small base (DDS) with the aforemensioned .297" neck.  A VERY good chamber if you're using Winchester brass, neck turned down to fit.  BUT,, as you can see,, Lapua and Norma doesn't fit well.

When I bought my Hornady, I found I had to seriously lube the inside of the necks and run them over a 263 mandrel, then trim them(to get rid of the HUGE lip) and put a camfer on the mouth,, just to load.  I tried to load one right out of the box and collapsed the shoulders.

I have about 40 or 50 twice fired Norma that I got from some AMU guys.  (I had a shit load more, but we won't into that again) It'll need to be cleaned, sized and the pockets aren't real tight,, but you're welcome to them if you like.  Just let me know.

All this talk of nasty weather.  It's 72 and sunny here.  Was in the mid 80's this weekend, and will be for this coming weeknends HighPower matches ;))  My bet is the weather for ASC#2 will be nice, nice and WINDY;)))  But you wouldn't wnat it any other way.

Kevin,

Had Andy leveled the rifle and ran up to his 1K come up at 100 to see if it was canted?  A shot at 100 and them a shot at 100 with 1K dope on is a good way to spot check your reticle to ensure it's plum.  It also will let you know if you're scope is tracking through the ele range correctly, as I'm sure you already know.  Was he loosing windage when he dialed up to 1K?

I like to put up a poster board at 100y and shoot a 3 shot group with my 100, 300, 600 and 1K dope to check my tracking and trueness of the reticle.  Seem's to work for me.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 15:16:53 (ZULU)


Steve ~ Hockeyref:  Well, something is going on between 44 and 44.5 grains that's screwing the variability all up.  If that's where you start compressing powder, that MAY be it.

You know, the 175 SMK at 2620 fps +/- 18 fps isn't all that bad.  Using a M3 with the wrong cam doesn't sound like a confidence builder.  Maybe our resident M3 cam expert knows of one that will work.

In a couple of hours with scratch paper and a spreadsheet I could make this "44 gr of new Varget" work using carefully collected data from one long trip to a 1,000 yard range.  But I could only make it work for a 1/4 min scope.  They're complicated, but they're versitile.

Don't let this work on your head.  When it's time to shoot, shoot it like you believe it.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 15:27:07 (ZULU)


TEST

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 15:41:28 (ZULU)


Kev,

I'll bring a deck......

Chris,

I used the target for checking the M1 Garand from 100 to 1000 at 50 yds.... fired two shots at each setting and one shot usually landed on each side of the line - curiously enough the marks from 600 to 1000 on the target were right on with the cam settings???? More WTF to go with this Varget thingie..... Jeeze!

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 15:48:00 (ZULU)


Lito said......

"Glocckamole' and John...

The Sierra program gives you drops in "inches" you have to convert them to MOA's yourself.  That may be why you think the program has errors."

Bro lito, yeah, I know that, and that's not the problem..

Convert their #'s to moa's, is still not getting the moa's( COME UP'S)  to the right settings.

I can enter data for a load, and it will give me a 39 moa @ 1k come up...and when at the range, I dial in 37, and am "ON".

2 full moa difference.....

By using their #'s, and dividing that # by 1.047,( 39 ~ 1.047 = 37.2). it get's me a LOT closer than what the program spits out...dunno why, but, that's the way it is.

Muchas Gracias........

Two Shoes

-

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 15:53:19 (ZULU)


Andy's Dad got me thinking about what I've started doing for the last 6 monthes or so.

Everytime I get a rifle zeroed, I put it on the collimator(Scope boresighter from Bushnell) and record the grid reference.  I throw this number(1.5L, 3up, or whatever) into my ever growing Word file of rifle zeroes.  That way, if the scope ever gets whacked, or if I change scopes I can throw it right back to where it ought to be with a high degree of confidence.  I've done this with my SCLE rifle with two different scopes while waiting for my M3 to get here and it seems to work, so far.  No wasting time and ammo doing a real re-zero, just fire a confirmation group and fine tune if needed(hasn't been needed yet)

I'm going to plot all the platoon's rifles, so I have the information on hand should the rifles be all FUBAR after coming back from the 2112's.  It also seems that this might be a good idea for the field if you do rough inserts(all you loonies who jump out of perfectly good planes;-)  Anyone else do this?  Am I just stating the obvious?  S/F...Ken M        

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 16:00:56 (ZULU)



Steve,

If it makes you feel any better, I took my new Varget out and shot some a few weeks back.  AT 600 and 1K my 30-06 turret was close enough that I wouldn't bet my life on the difference.  Now, I'm only running about 40fps difference, and I'm not compressed, so YMMV.

If you have a chance to get to the Rock Pile, see what your 300 and 600y ups are.  Then adjust your program numbers to reflect your MV, the weather and your 300/600y come up to extrapolate your 1K+ dope in 50y increments.  My bet is you'll be within 1MOA at range with this method.  Just tape over you 223 turret and mark you new come ups on the masking tape.  Done,, and if you notice your rounds running a bit high or low at the ASC,, compensate real time.  Besides, what are the chances you're gonna get a level shot anyway??  You'll all be swaggin' dope for 50* up and down shots, LOL...

You guys slay me with all this shit talkin' about re-zero'd rifles, re-focused scopes, un-tested loads, last place competitions and such ;))  The mind games never end.....  When it boils down to the bone, who gives a shit about a 1 moa difference in your come up when a light wind shift is gonna throw ya 4 moa off???  I can't wait for the AAR. ;))

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 16:09:13 (ZULU)



Kev - the three of us from NJ are also staying at Yokums, (imitation is the highest form of flattery).

I do however suggest we leave the cards at home, if the wind isn't throwing cows around...I'm shooting.

New Jersey contingent ETA is 5PM.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 16:16:35 (ZULU)


Vote on the AW ban here....

http://www.vote.com/vote/60095082/index.phtml?cat=4075633

Over 50 million have voted so far......

Rich

RichS. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 16:36:35 (ZULU)


Ya, gotta watch the ballistics programs. Some give you drop only while others give you the actual path the bullet will be on when zeroed at a particular range. Some like our old PCB give you both.

There does appear to be significan differences in what data they are spewing out.

MK4; I am inspired to feel your pain as I once tracked a Elk over by Delores Co. for about 5 miles thinking he had the biggest tracks I'd ever seen. Obviously a big bull by the track and found a huge animal with a Unicorn horn.

Sounds like Hornady Brass is a little raw. I guess the length has been checked but the heads might be suspicious as to thickness. It doesn't take much to stop the works, perhaps the heads are swelling behind instead of out or in addition too.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 17:13:14 (ZULU)


'yoteBait & Mr. inSain,

I sure wish you two would hurry up and finish writing your books.  I haven't had a good read in way too long.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 18:00:01 (ZULU)


Yotebait.......(;

Ditto'.......a lot of folks use drop, and not path...this can get you in a lot of trubble.....))):*

Rich,

50 MILLLON????????

On what??.

The site said, less than 11,000, have voted on the AWB yay/nay????.

Just a little "Thank You", for the folks on here, kind enough to answer questions, even the stupid ones.

If everyone was as smart as everyone else, there would no need for forums........

Two ( sometimes stupid) Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 18:21:26 (ZULU)


Bal. Programs;

'Lito turned me on to dividing Bullet Path by 1.047 for MOA come-ups with the Infinity program.. Got me pretty close.  Close enough I was able to get on paper to see where I was hittin'.  Got it wrote down and have shot thru different temps. and recorded that, too.  Nice to see a 175 SMK at 2730 shoots even flatter'n I woulda believed from the bal. program. I just print out a little dope chart and clear-tape it under my ocular flip-up.  

Of course now that I haven't shot in about 6 months and I've swapped scopes again, and VARGET is in the shitter...  Shit, it's bad enough just learnin' the wind!

Mk4 M3 dials.  Loopy oughta just make one marked for moas with tick marks and every five ticks #'d.  SOunds like Kenyon does that.  But I'm sure it costs alot more than the one I made for mine.  If Loopy did it...  Nah, it makes too much sense.  

The LRM3s are easy.  Just ignore the come-ups and record your "for-real" comeups.  Already got ticks on 'em.  

Now if I lived closer to a 1000 yd range and had more time, I'd probably try the "load to match the dial" method.  But I got lucky and found a fast, cosistent, and accurate load that gives no trouble.  So I've used it for a coupla years now.

Stinkin' Varget.  Now I gotta start all over...

SHIT!

Disgusted Spud,

Out.

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 18:41:37 (ZULU)


Taterhead...

>"Mk4 M3 dials.  Loopy oughta just make one marked for moas with tick marks and every five ticks #'d.  SOunds like Kenyon does that.  But I'm sure it costs alot more than the one I made for mine.  If Loopy did it...  Nah, it makes too much sense."<

They do (or did) I gots one.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 19:22:42 (ZULU)


Help me out here.  In light of the fact I just brought home a fresh 8# jug of Varget, can’t I just load that amount required to get back to my 2,675 fps and be happy?  I currently load 44.2 grains of Varget to get in the 2,675 +/- 10 fps range.  I think there is some case capacity to spare.  Is there a whole lot more to this issue?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 19:27:52 (ZULU)


Squirrel-killer;

It figures.  Guess I shoulda done my homework.

'Course it would probably raise the price of the scopes to print something up offering these dials as an option (providing they still make 'em).

"Taterhead"- Haven't heard "Tater" in a loooooong time.  Too funny.  HA!

Patron El Andy,

Load 'em, and chrono 'em.  Then tell us your results.  PRETTY PLEEEEEEASE!?

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, KA, usa - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 19:43:08 (ZULU)



Mater, Tamater, Tomatoe / Tater, Patater, Potatoe ... but I digress.

DOC: Lots of work yet to do on my book. Didn't realize what I was getting into, but will see it through. Promise it will be worth the price of admission.

Picking up where Gooch left off with Police Marksman. Big shoes to fill.

Got about fifteen articles waiting in the wings and three rifles/scopes to test as I speak. Plan to do one on GA Prec. too.

Aren't enough hours in the day.

Not to mention I gotta try and catch a crook every now and then.

Whine, whine, whine ...

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 19:46:48 (ZULU)



BKS,

You still ridin' your hog?  (Two-wheeled version)

HAHAAAAAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

(Watch out, Spud's in a fairly decent mood...)

Shit, I may even smile a little, today.

I hope the newbies have been listenin' and takin' notes on this parallax and focus stuff.  Sure as hell helps some of us old-timers.  (age-wise, anyway).

Also the bal. program stuff.

Then I hope they go out and SHOOT and prove it to themselves.  I did.  What a confidence builder it is, too.

'Yote-bait,

Still dickin' w/ the "tapered-neck" 223 Stealth.  Turned the necks of the cases to .245.  Helped a lot.

Spud,

Out

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 20:01:20 (ZULU)


On Ballistic programs...

I've been using two, one is a beta test of the Aberdeen Proving Grounds Protocol.

The other one is the Sierra Infinity V2.0, and I have liked it (sorta) for a lot of years.  Some two or three months ago, I bought the new V5.0 (with the loading data), but never got around to installing it.

Just did (prompted by this thread, and the Russian wanting some skinny).

WOW... it is about 10 times better than the V2 series.

In the V2, the ballistic program, and the loading data were two different programs on the same CD.

On the V5, the loading data is intergrated into the ballistics program.

In the new version, when you get the data page, you can request MOA path, along with the inches... plus lotsa other new stuff.

It's worth what they get for it... they fixed all the crap I hated about the old version.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 20:23:58 (ZULU)



Kevin: If you've got case capacity, maybe. But some of Hockeyref Steve's data seemed to suggest inconsistency as well as reduced pressure.

FWIW, I've got a new jug I ordered from Natchez Shooter's Supply recently, and it's apparently producing the same pressures as the one I was using before. It appears to be an earlier lot number, though, than some of that which people are reporting problems with: 8 0329034036. I'm getting about 2685 from 44.5 gr. driving a 175 SMK out of my 26" barrel. I haven't used it enough to be sure about it's consistency.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 20:25:33 (ZULU)


Lindy... if I'm guessing right on the lot #'s yours is a 2003 mfg....

At any rate if you're getting ~2700 w\44.5ish grains of powder you're good to go. I can't seat to fit the mag and get enough power in the case to go 2700 witha 175!

Thinkin' about poking myself in the aiming eye witha sharp stick rather than dick with this stuff any more... IF I take Varget down to ASC#2 it'll only be going 2620 or so......

Steve ~Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 20:39:32 (ZULU)


DENNIS: Sold the FXSTS (Springer) to buy a house.

One of those grown up decisions you hate to have to make when you are a 41 year old man in a 21 year old's body. lol

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 20:45:30 (ZULU)


Ken M.

<Anyone else do this?  Am I just stating the obvious?>

In fact the instructions that came with my boresighter suggested it.      That's one advantage of it over the laser type.

Don      

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 21:18:42 (ZULU)


BKS,

Damn!  I did the same thing back in '83 or so.  Sold my old 79&1/2 80ci Lowrider...

Sometimes it takes awhile to get back on 'em, but it's great when ya do.

Been thinkin' about that updated Sierra program...  Guess I'm sold.

Anybody had any experience w/ the AMT Hardballer?  Hit me offline, please.

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, KA, usa - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 21:21:28 (ZULU)


To clarify : As a follow up on the ballistics program thing, Infinity version 4 and 5, at the least, have the correct MOA paths.  Do not use drop!

i.e. the inches work out to the proper MOA, at any range.

The -problem- is that Sierra's published BC for the 175 smk is low.  No 2 ways about it.  It performs -better- than they rate it at, with their own data.

I've verified this in a number of rifles, on a number of ranges, 600-1000 yards.  It's about 2 MOA pessimistic.  Which is why, coincidentally, running the MOA formula against it again tend to get you closer to the true number, but that is just a coincidence.

This is not really bad news; you're getting more than you expected, which includes less wind drift.  But my point on all of it is that you -must- go test it yourself.  Predictive data from a book or program is exactly that : a prediction.  I know a lot of you already know this, but it's just a recap.

Thoery is fine, but until you shoot it, and record your data in a log book (along with all the pertinent site data, i.e. sun direction, brightness, altitude, etc.) it doesn't really matter.

And yes, I've found that logged data, for different sites, starts to paint a picture for me, when going to a new site even.  I'm just learning about this stuff, but it's a lot of fun.  Gotta go shoot soon, catch you all later.

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 21:54:49 (ZULU)


I just started up my '89 Sporty on Sunday.  She popped to life on the first try.  I rode her down to the gas station to top her off with 92 octane.  I've got to watch the gas consumption because of the peanut tank and I broke the spedo a while back and haven't replaced it yet.  She shows 34K now.  Yep, the needle went clear around to the peg and broke right off one day.  I haven't payed much attention to it since then.  I do love to put my knees in the breeze.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 21:54:57 (ZULU)


Jim, Kevin and Lito,

I'm also staying at Yokums. I guess the hot showers and nice beds are too apealling that no one wants to camp out especially with the weather forcast. ;) Everyone make sure to have your wet weather gear. I'm with Jim on the shooting. If it ain't raining, you ain't training. Isn't that the saying? Hell I was planning on being last anyways so it won't hurt me :P  Our ETA will be around 12pm on Friday.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 22:05:45 (ZULU)


FireDude...

>"If it ain't raining, you ain't training."<

I ain't going for no steeenkin' trainin'... I'm going for fun, and rain AIN'T FUN!

-

'lito

(crossin' my fingers that the commie pinko weather dept is wrong!!)

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 22:50:58 (ZULU)


Andy's Dad,

May you always keep the rubber side down...

And what John L said!

(You guys all speak so much purtier than me!)  

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 22:55:16 (ZULU)


Catman.....if rain is expected in Seneca Rocks....Where we "is" headed it will be freezing rain, sleet, and snow !!!!!!!

Wear your longjohns for sure !!!!!!

I's has got me a genuine West Virginny "condo" at Yokums.......how can life get any better than this !!!!!!

Did anyone get a TeePee for the weekend ????

TOA = around noonish Friday

JRMoore

JRMoore Email this member See this member's profile
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 23:15:01 (ZULU)



KEN; In case you missed it here some time back,  don't forget to check at different Scope power ring settings by zeroing to center and then moving the power ring. If there is any movement with power change you will see it.

Also check all your turret clicks up down and sideways to be sure they move smoothly and accurately. You should be able to go anywhere and return to zero with the same number of clicks.

These things will show 1/4 MOA changes. But be sure you keep your head straight and still behind as there is parallax involved by the way.

And you can check your turret capability to travel up to the ,maximum range by counting grids or better than that count clicks to determine how high your elevation can go with a particular combination. Each one of those grid squares is about 3 or 4 inches depending on the length of the barrels.

YEs, there are many advantages over a Lazer type.

Also if you have two of these you can get pretty much exact zero using the same size mounts.

Simply place one in each gun and return zero to the same place with the new scope your swapping. I use this to swap scopes from one gun to another or a double swap.

This saves much ammo and is usually as accurate as shooting and a hell of a lot quieter in Enemy Territory.

Doc; Mine is done but haven't even sought a publisher yet. Since 911 it needs some touch up but haven't figured out exactly how to do it yet.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 23:43:24 (ZULU)


Kitty whacker - Have used the Sierra programs 4 and now 5 for some time now.  We have used it to give guys data in some "interesting" places.  Works well, but still learning the differences between 4 and 5.  And there are some!

Bore sighter, we issue one to each team.  They make really nice little checks on the weapon after a jump.  If the weapon zeros at down 2 left 3.5 then after the jump and movement and BEFORE the shot it should be down 2 and left 3.5 or maybe you just might have whacked the sucker!  Sure makes for a red face when the weapon shoots other then where it should have due to a mighty whack on the jump.  We also use it to check turret consistency by boxing, and to get a new scope on the weapon if one seems to be bad.  Just set the scope to the same setting and viola!

AA11 or the new M118LR, 175 gr.  The new ammo is NOT 2680fps.  the Marines asked for and got a down load to 2600.  to confirm we just chronoed our M118LR through a new M24 barrel, less then 200 rounds, and through an old over 7000 rounds and got the following, new barrel ran 2605 to 2615 and the old ran 2580 to 2595.  Standard Deviation was 12.  Taht is why the Leupold shop said the military asked for 2600, because we use 2600.  Sorry, but that is the way it goes.  :-)

Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 00:58:26 (ZULU)


Sir Rick: that would seem to make M118LR pretty similar to FGMM2. A 25-round lot of that through my new (at the time about 80 rounds) 26" Model 70 chronoed at an average of 2615 with an SD of 15. Do you happen to know why they wanted the lower velocity?

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 01:41:19 (ZULU)



Rick,

"""That is why the Leupold shop said the military asked for 2600, because we use 2600.  Sorry, but that is the way it goes.  :-)"""

So,, the lots of M118LR that were running 2685fps, or there abouts, were not jiving with the 308 turret caps for the MkIV M3's, and LC changed the load to accomodate??  If so,, good for them.  We do this shit to keep our blood pressure up,, something the guys out there doing,, don't need any help with.

When you said "because we use 2600",, have ya'll been using a load other than the M118LR to keep things copesetic?

Looks like Yokums is gonna be lousy with riff raff Friday ;))  Hope ya'll have a great time.  Best that they hide the Guinness and the DDR&LJ now!!  Ohhh, and 'Lito,, don't forget your bolt or your ammo!!!!

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 01:47:22 (ZULU)



HOLY CRAP HAWGS!!!!!!!! You have got to go to this site and see the borescope video. I don't know if the video is on the up and up or not, but if it is it would be very embarrassed if I was a manufacturer. About made me puke. I'm afraid to even think what mine look like. No damn wonder the things are so hard to clean. Maybe the Tubb final finish isn't such a bad idea afterall for a factory POS like this.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 02:43:25 (ZULU)


Grockamorie.....

Yep, my bad.  I got a wee to excited about the 50 bazillion thing.  I guess the 50+million is for total votes that site has ever had, not for that particular one.  My bad.  Still, a good thing to do though.

Rich

Rich S. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 03:00:37 (ZULU)


Rickster...

When did they download the M118-LR... when Allient took over?.

That sucks!!

-

'lito (lookin' for my ammo and bolt ;)

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 03:18:15 (ZULU)


OK for those that are interested, and also those that aren't I've moved back to the Alien City and have a TEMPORARY E-mail until the DSL gets connected next week! Temporary is: Rnsarge@wmconnect.com If you need me use it!

Thanks guys!

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Area 51 South, NM, - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 03:50:04 (ZULU)



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNIPERQUEST 2003  Up-date<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

OK folks only a little over 2 weeks until rounds down range! We have almost 30 teams signed up but have room for more! Come on gang, join somemore of the Hawgs, Dudes, UnDudes, Shooters etc. and join us in Oklahoma!! This WILL be a match to remember!!

BUT of course if you'd rather let another Rosterfarian have YOUR piece of the $20,000+ in prizes we have - don't believe me look at the prize list!!  - well what can I say  :-)

we are going to have a blast...pun intented!!

Sarge

Rnsarge@wmconnect.com

(temp e-mail until DSL installed next week!)

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Area 51 , NM, - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 04:18:10 (ZULU)


For any of you that have an old Tasco scope lying around, I think I've stumbled on something that makes them work!  I've been using my last one for propping the back corner of the loading bench that wobbles when I'm cranking out .308 ammo.  Well, I got this wild hair today and wanted to put a scope on the AR just to see what it could do since I threw the free-float tube on it.  I fully expected to have to adjust both knobs just to get the elevation right.  Gaaaah...the damned thing tracked straight up and down!  1/2 moa adjustments went just as they were supposed to, elev. and windage.  Sheesh, I think I might have another one stashed in the garage, holding the washer from banging the wall during the spin cycle.....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 04:54:03 (ZULU)



Anybody passing through Southern Idaho who could use help with the gas and the driving?  If I can do this on a shoestring, maybe Senior Command will let me out of the house.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 05:13:41 (ZULU)


M118LR velocity - Do not know why they down loaded the rounds, only know that they did it last year and before the new turrets were made.  The first batch of M118LR we got was scooting along at about 2650 to 2675 out of our M24s.  The next batch and all subsequent batches over the last year have been going at about 2600.  As noted by Ken M, the LOTs are broken into sub batches and he noted that some look repackaged.  This I have not noted but the sub batches were noted.  We have shot across the sub batches and have not noted any zero change in the sub LOTs so do not know why they are using these sub LOTs.  Unless of course they are from different runs but have the same charactoristics.  Just a guess guys.  Right now, the difference in student scores from the M118SB/M852 and the new M118LR is noticable in the extreme.  Before a class average would run about 74 to 76 now it runs about 78 to 81.  It has got to be the puppy chow.  :-)

Bolt - You should see some of our video of old burned out barrels on our M24s!  We use a borescope regularly to check for extreme throat erosion (talk about "alligator skin").  If we find it we will not allow the weapon in the course as we do not want to fail a student due to a bad weapon.  The erosion may not effect the shots but then again you can get some pretty wild fliers.  Our weapons will have about 8000 to 9000 rounds on them when we send them in for rebarrel.  I shot a polygon barrel I got from Gale McMillian to 15000 rounds and then went to the FBI course wiht it.  Finally started throwing fliers right after the course and had to get rid of it. :-(

Rick

Rick Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 12:39:51 (ZULU)


Volumetric difference?

I checked my load notebook last nite thinking I remembered a difference in the last lot #'s volume. Sure nuff. When set for lot # 3809(44.0 grs) and 3956 was used, it threw 42.8grs. I bought 1# of 4024 lot no. yesterday and didn't change the setting and it threw 45.8 grs. FWIW. Even using this POS RCBS powder throw and weighing 5 or 6 throws it was consistent. I'm gonna chrono the 4024 today and see if it's more consistent. The container had dust bunnies on it, so it must be old, right??? :)))

John

Yokums ETA 21:00Z-22:00Z

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 12:58:02 (ZULU)


Brian In-Sain,

>>>One of those grown up decisions you hate to have to make when you are a 41 year old man in a 21 year old's body.<<<

21 year old's body... or 21 year old MIND SET???

I'm 60 years old and JUST got my FIRST Harley.

Ultra Classic Electra Glide.

What the HELL am I doin'  Larry

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!! - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 13:56:14 (ZULU)


Acehigh....you are very correct......

Even in the two lots that I have, '01 and '02 I can see a slight "length" difference in granules.....and even a little difference will take up more room in an already crowded case.

ASC#2.....looks like a good weekend of "precip" is in order for the mountain......I just threw my flippers and snorkel in my kit !!!!

Neoprene may be the fabric of choice for this shoot !!!

JRMoore

JRMoore Email this member See this member's profile
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 13:59:12 (ZULU)


I wonder if the change to a lower MV with M118LR was due to the inital reports of high pressure and 2800fps MV's.  I seem to recall some of the original batches being very hot, especially in extremely hot weather.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 14:49:59 (ZULU)


Ok, so it looks like we’re all spooling up for ASC#2.  That’s good.  I think a large part of the enjoyment of such events comes from all the preparation and anticipation at least it does for me.

Team Mussack should arrive at Yokum’s sometime in the early afternoon.  We can’t stand waiting to depart so we’ll probably leave home “oh-dark-thirty” so we can “get there”.

FRAGO:

In consideration of the sizable number of folks staying at Yokum’s we should consider a pre-shoot gathering……..we’ll coordinate something on the ground Friday afternoon  bring your own refreshments.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 14:50:35 (ZULU)


J. Copeland

Please send me an email

Marc Palmer Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 15:28:42 (ZULU)


Marc,

Email on the way via DR.

jc

jcopeland Email this member See this member's profile
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 15:50:30 (ZULU)


CDC,

Do try to make it. I am going, just to stumble through and shake some hands and get away from work/home...

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 16:29:08 (ZULU)


Larry Porter,

Brian wasn't foolin' when he said 21 yr. old body. I and my Child Bride had the dubious distinction of witnessing him stop the SHOT Show this year by doing a table dance for my lady Israeli sniper pal, to give her a Port Arthur SWAT T-shirt. Both Israeli and Bride still speak fondly of the show. Maybe a bit too fondly....

It was disgusting.

Mostly because I wasn't in that kind of shape when I was 21, much less now.

(But old age and treachery will defeat youth and talent every time......)

In-Sain's OK......that's the highest praise I will give anybody. But watch out......chicks do indeed dig him.

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 18:00:23 (ZULU)


Larry,

You're livin' the DREAM, my man.  Enjoy it while ya got it.

Thanks to all that responded on the Hardballer.  Appreciate the input.

SPUD!

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 18:05:09 (ZULU)


More on Varget,

Just out of curiosity I loaded 5 rds with 43.0 grs. and used 215Ms' and a HA! "control" group of 5 with 44.5 and 210Ms'.

The SD and ES of group one (magnum primers) was 41.05 and 16.73, group 2 (non magnum) was 68.22 and 24.51. Hi vel. for (1) was 2797 and (2) 2733. I know 5 shots does not a story make but I'm gonna pursue it a bit further after ASC2. Both groups shot under a .5 moa at a hundred out of SC#15. The mag. primers were backed out about .002-.003 after firing. All brass was new Lapua, prepped as usual for me. Barrel was clean for first group which was the non-mag primers. Group 2 would have been my normal load for the rifle.

CDC,

How many rounds would qualify as or constitute reliable data to justify a switch if the consistency holds or gets better?

John

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 18:10:05 (ZULU)



War with Iran can't be avoided.  We take it to them, or they take it to us.  They're more vulnerable than we are.  Check out the links:

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen051403.asp

With all these attempts to lower expectations, you guys should all run political campaigns.  The latest example of sandbagging the board is Michael.  He can blow smoke at most of you, but I've seen him shoot.  

John Acehigh:  It depends on what you want to test.  If you are comparing two loads head to head, you know everything in 30 rounds of each.  That will detect differences too small to matter.  You usually know all you need to in 10.  20 each is almost always enough.  If you are changing a bunch of stuff at once, a designed experiment is the way to go.  That probably goes beyond the scope of what we can get in to on this board.

If you want a more specific answer, tell me what you have in mind.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 18:19:29 (ZULU)


Bruce..

  You old dog, are you going to make it up to the SniperQuest shoot??? How many other regulars from here are going to go???

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 20:32:31 (ZULU)


I got SCLE# tirdy tree bedded and teflon coated brown the other day.

Yes Lito the barreled action fit in the oven. No the wife didn't gripe...she wasn't home when I did it ; )

Yes I was one of the guys that got his un-finished. I knew I'd just HAVE to mess with something on it, and the brown matches the dirt here mo'better than tan.

Anyway, I put in a snap cap to check the function after I had futzed with it. I gently closed the bolt (thank goodness) and bound it up! I'm thinking OH HELL, what have I done now!

So I gently bump the bolt back open, and try a few Fed. GMM for function, not firing. They went through the action slicker than shit through a goose ; )

So I get out the mic's and measure the Fed. GMM 168gr , WIN FS 180gr, REM CL 150gr, and the Armsport snap cap.

               FED    WIN   REM   ARM

    base dia. .4655  .4655 .4665  .472

    neck dia. .3385-.3395,.338-.336,.337-.338,.310-.313

The base size of the snap cap made it clear why it didn't fit. What do they use for tollerance on these things?

What was really interesting was the fact that this same snap cap worked fine in the ru,ruuu,  ruuuuu (aw hell, you know) that I used to try to shoot with. I'm glad I sold that POS years ago. Too bad I left the B&L TAC on it! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath-water!!!

I was kind of surprised the WIN neck tapered from tip to base end instead of from base to tip.

So what brand snap caps do youze guys use for dry firing?

                           

4i's Email this member See this member's profile
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 22:37:53 (ZULU)


Ken, or anyone else familiar with it - I'm interested in the Bushnell boresighter you're using. There is one in a catalog described as: Bushnell Banner Professional Boresighter, described as "Large diameter objective lens for optimum resolution. Lighweight metal body. Mar-resistant, glossy black finish, three expandible arbors for full range of calibers from .22 to .45. Deluxe carrying case holds sighter and three arbors."

Does that sound like the one you've got? Thanks!

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 01:30:28 (ZULU)



All ASC#2 shooters,

Well looking at the local forcast it looks like it might not be as wet as we thought this weekend in WV. There is a small chance of precip on saturday and sunday but not too bad. Maybe as we get closer it will dry up. I got the other report of rain from the Weather Channel which I should have known better about. The Weather Channel is sometimes wrong on local forcasts. They've said it was raining in my town before and I look out the window at sunny skys. That's why I went to a local TV station for the Elkins,WV, where Rod said to look for weather. Click on my name to see it.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 01:32:30 (ZULU)



Golly Bruce. I really don't know what to say (and THAT doesn't happen often).

I actually meant the 41/21 thing closer to what Larry said. I am really immature for my age. Still playing cops and robbers. Still playing on a jungle gym (albeit a somewhat bigger jungle gym).

My guys won a local SWAT competition today. I dumped one pistol shot(aghh) but at least I didn't crease my head on that damn window again.he heh.

That damn thing hurt.

Made my sniper shots though, thank God.

Bruce, tell my friend hello for me.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 02:03:06 (ZULU)


Lindy, that's the one I have.  I like it alot.  I'm thinking about getting another one, and leaving it in my warbox(giant cleaning/tool kit with all the stuff the USMC doesn't provide)

The M118LR saga is interesting.  One of the guys through this platoon about '98ish was privvy to the development of the round.  Not that they asked him anything, but the got to watch.  They were all happy that the M118LR was doing 2680, and things were good.  

I first got the stuff, with a '97 headstamp, when I was at Quantico in July of '98.  The stuff shot high compared to the established sight settings for a given range, based on M118SB.  It was hot loaded ammo, but no pressure signs that I recall.  Temp on the firing line was f**king hot, around 104-108F, plus the sun.  Really disgustingly hot.  Even the instructors said it was hot, that's something right there.

I've shot a lot of the 98 stuff, almost all of it LC-98J173-012, sub-lot B.  That's been spread out over a few years, from 99-02, and it shot well, but it has pressure signs in hot weather, mainly flattened primers and ejector extrusion marks.  I'll have to check the gun books to see if we shot any other lots from that timeframe.

I have shot some '01 LR stuff, don't know the lot offhand, have to check the books.  This stuff did not show any pressure signs that I can find or recall from other Marines.  

My guess(pure speculation) on the backed off velocity in recent lots:

They did it because the M118LR is killing the DMR's(M14's) with the powder they're using at 2680fps.  The USMC has invested a lot of time and money in the DMR and they want it to last a little while.  It seems to me that the M118LR would kill M14's in short order.  Particularly in the 120degree desert.

Only other thing I can think of is that they are trying to match the cam on the Unertl for the older M118SB.  Just my guesses.  I think it's a stupid idea, more velocity is better, especially when it shoots well.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 02:10:26 (ZULU)


Ken: thanks for the answer - I'll get one ordered. And yeah, it does get hot at Quantico in the summer, but, ya know, it's not the heat, but the humidity... When I was a kid, and my dad was at the Pentagon, we used to rent a beach house on the Chesapeake to get away from the summer heat of Washington. And those barracks at Quantico, when I was there, were not air-conditioned.

I wasn't aware they were shooting that M118LR in the DMR's. That's going to be a lot higher pressure than standard ammo - I'll bet it bangs hell out of the op rod. I don't shoot anything heavier than 147 gr. in mine. Thanks for the information.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 02:26:35 (ZULU)


John,

Incoming

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan Email this member See this member's profile
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 03:52:05 (ZULU)


Ref: Sniperquest

I'll be there.  I shipped my ammunition out today.  Be advised air travelers, the IATA regulations say only 5 kilos of small arms ammunition per passenger is allowed so think about shipping your class 5 ahead.  Before 9/11 nobody cared or checked but they sure do now.  See ya'll in OK.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 04:14:47 (ZULU)



Rob01, or any one else interested:

 Here is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

website:

www.nws.noaa.gov/

click on the map at the desired location. This  next page is the zone forecast for that area.If you look to the upper left there are long

and short range base reflectivity loops.( loading may take a bit of time depending on the speed of your connection)

Once you get profecient with this site you will not need to watch

your local wheatherperson on tv for his/her opinion.

Hope this information helps

Scott S Email this member See this member's profile
Key West, FL., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 04:54:28 (ZULU)


Ken -Spoke with Chandler and he said it was done for accuracy reasons, but I think it was accuracy as far as the cam goes. I agree, make a new cam and carry on.  The run of 2600 versus 2680, though only a paltry 80 fps is a whooping 2.5 (approx) moa at 1000 meters.  The change becomes exponential after 600.  The wind formula still holds as w x r(in 100s) divided by 10 gives moa wind correction.  Range is meters, yards will give you a bit heavy correction.  

So a 10 mph wind at 600 becomes 10 times 6 divided by 10 which equals 6 moa.  You do see the pattern there right?  A 10 mph wind will give you the moa correction of the range in 100s.  Thus 400 becomes 4 moa, which makes 5 mph 2 moa and 15 mph is 6 moa.  And that is the end of my higher mathmatics. :-)  While this is great for an estimate for a body shot, understand that this is heavy at the lower shorter ranges and light at the longer ranges.

The M14 shooting the 175 grain is not a good idea with the hot loads.  I have fixed two weapons now which did the flying disassembly trick on the firing line.  Both lost extractors and one did the broken trigger pin trick.

Yes to the Bushnell bore sighter NO to the Leupold magnetic POS.

Rick Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 12:24:49 (ZULU)


On the M118LR issue, slap over 44 grs of 748 , and stuff a 175 into a case with the basic same capacity of the LC/FGM/IMI Match, and you WILL get pressure....esp at higher ambients.

On the issue of tearing up 14's, there were no problems when this rifle was shooting 118SB @ 2550.

I am not exactly sure when the LC plant started using RL15, over the WC750, I just know it was being tested in late '97/'98.

Lindy

Your M1A, was designed to shoot 173's........@2550, so the bullet weight, is not the issue, until you get OVER 175.

It's the powder burn rate, and velocity that tears em' up.

Gas port pressure, and speed, of the op rod..........

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 14:00:44 (ZULU)


The ammo saga continues....

I ran some RE15 last night - three ten shot groups and I used CCI 200's instead of the WLR's on wild hair. All were basically ~.750"or less without the called "awshits" - the 44.5gr group was a ~.750 hole (outside to outside)!

Looks like I'm taking RE15 to WVA.....

43.5gr     44.1gr     44.5gr

2667       2715       2732

2684       2740       2726

2676       2743       2737

2664       2681       2757

2637       2684       2734

2683       2696       2743

2673       2708       2760

2684       2693       2741

2679       2668       2755

2679       2679       2738

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Hoping I have enuff prepped cases , loading tonight, maybe ready for ASC#2 - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 14:14:20 (ZULU)



Re: Varget

Brand new Lapua .308 brass, uniformed pockets, flash holes deburred, case mouths deburred, then sorted by weight. 210M primers.  175 grain SMKs.  Varget lot # 1 0723013809 trickled by hand literally to the nearest kernel using a Hornady balance beam scale.  Loaded with Redding competition die set to 2.8" OAL.  Shot with Remington PSS with less than 500 rounds down the barrel.  Velocity measured with brand new CED Millenium chrono in Racine, WI at 626 feet above sea level, 80-ish degrees, 60-ish percent humidity, 10 feet from the end of the barrel.  GM308M2 was first fired to foul the barrel, and work out any problems with the chrono.

Load            GM308M2   43.8      44        44.2     44.4

Shot #  1       2660      2608      2604      2633     2642

        2       2635      2642      2621      2626     2647

        3       2650      2618      2614      2639     2658

        4       2651      2607      2629      2639     2648

        5       2646      2614      2633      2632     2640

High            2660      2642      2633      2639     2658

Low             2635      2607      2604      2626     2640

Spread            25        35        29        13       18

Average         2648.4    2617.8    2620.2    2633.8   2647

St. Dev.           9        14.2      11.6       5.4      7

Each load was shot at 100 yards, over chrono, to measure velocities.  Each load was then shot at 300 yards for group size.  The 44.2 load had the tightest Standard Deviation, as well as the smallest 300 yard horizontal and vertical groups.

A week later, under similar weather conditions at the same location, the 44.2 load was then shot on a bench at the 100 yard range again in order to set the 100 yard zero on the LRM3.  On the same day, the same 44.2 load was then shot prone at 600 yards, which matched the 30-06 BDC dial 600 yard setting precisely, shooting a 200-15X.

This is odd, as many here have stated 44.0 grains of Varget gets you 2675 fps, and that this velocity is necessary to track the 30-06 BDC dial.  I used more powder, got less velocity, and yet matched the 30-06 BDC dial at 600 yards.

Michael A. Litscher Email this member See this member's profile
Brew City, WI, - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 15:19:36 (ZULU)



Michael.....

Have you noticed the troubles I've had with varget? I had to crunch 45.5 grains in toget 2685! It will vary lot to lot - my guess is that lots from sometime in mid\late 2000 through early 2002 were "slower" as I am hearing that newer stuff is up to speed again.

This is my opinion, but with the big velocity drop that I've experienced - coupled with the volume of powder I purchase at one time - I am very hesitant to use it anymore. I find it unacceptable because of MY experience ... I won't purchase $300 or more of powder if I have any thought that I might not be able to get enough powder into your case to get up to where your previous lot excelled???

Steve ~ Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 16:09:33 (ZULU)


Ref: S2 Met. Report

For Randolph County, WV.;

Friday Night: -Mostly Cloudy- low 50 degrees F

Saturday: -Partly Cloudy- high 65 degrees F

Saturday Night: -Rain Possible- low 48 degrees F

Sunday: -Rain Possible- high 65 degrees F

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 16:35:54 (ZULU)


Acehigh,

CDC's info/advice is very good.  I would like to add that recording ALL conditions, as Michael A. Litscher did, is very important.  If you intend to shoot all rounds at one sitting, then mixing them up might improve the quality of the data.  This borders on a DOE exercise.

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 16:39:34 (ZULU)


Anecdotal information only

I developed a load for my AR10T, 24", 1:8 twist, .260 to fire a 140 gr AMAX at 2700 FPS... I use a rem virgin case, rem standard primer and 35.6 grains of old varget.

Yesterday, my load to achieve 2700 fps out of my new 24", 1:8 twist, .260 based on a rem 700 action, using virgin Laupa .243 cases necked up, with rem primers and pushing the 142 gr sierra was 36.6 grains...

BTW - after break-in, my new GA precision rifle fired a seven shot group into about .7 at 100 yards... six where touching with the seventh the uncalled spoiler.  When I come in last at ASC2, it is completely my fault. The rifle shoots like a dream...no recoil to speak of.  The next rifle I shot was a 16" .308 AR10 upper from armalite... holy cow does that thing kick and make noise...I felt the ACOG just touch my eyelash on the first shot, time for a longer eye relief scope.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 16:50:37 (ZULU)



Duman:  Yep, randomizing would definitely improve the data.  Actually, the whole excercise isn't valid without it, but how do you explain it?

Maybe this way:  Two targets marked A and B, one for each load.  Load ten (fifteen tops) rounds of each and mark the cartridges A and B.  Mix them up.  Draw at random and shoot them on the corresponding targets.  (Dealing with the chrono may be an obstacle.)  

Data collected is:  Bullet speed and X&Y coordinates for the bullet holes. I wouldn't bother matching them.

You'd get mean bullet speed, bullet speed standard deviation, and would have an excellent accuracy measure that we won't discuss here.

Bullet speed analysis would be limited to a F-test, then a t-test.  Those are easy to do and easy to explain.  

Three loads would be better, but you'd have to use some stuff with names that would upset people.  

I haven't had time to look at the data just posted.  I'm in the middle of two take-homes and a fight with my lovely wife.  All three are beyond my understanding.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 17:26:30 (ZULU)


Michael A. Litscher,

you're 44.4gr load is within 3 fps of my loads, using a 26" factory Win Stealth with 1300rounds down the tube.  44.2 was also my most accurate load using Win brass, though I haven't shot it since I got the new 8lbs's of VarGet.

I think that you'll find the 30-06 turret with track just fine to 600, and then you'll start to see an error, which will grow out to the 1K mark.  At 2650, you'll not be off my much though.  Probably not more than 1MOA at 1000.

I had to hand weight 153 charges of 24.5gr varget last night for this weekends XTC match.  I'm READY to make the switch to a powder measure,, if just for 200 and 300y 223 rounds.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 18:18:41 (ZULU)


I know it's a pain, but I use the 'PACT' electronic scale and dispenser(sp?) for ALL of my rifle charges >IF< I'm using 'stick' powder.  I do NOT trust 'balance beam' scales...  I use the scale to check the charges if I'm using 'ball' or 'flake' and a powder 'dump.'  Maybe some day I'll be able to afford a 'Harrell...'

FWIW.

Larry

(Sharon)

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!! - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 18:34:20 (ZULU)


'Lito,

 youse got mail, clean w/ no attachments.

Jim

Jim Wise Email this member See this member's profile
Frostproof, Florida, USA - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 19:18:16 (ZULU)


Larry: My beam scale may not be accurate, in the sense of providing a reading that would agree with a high-accuracy scale in terms of the absolute number of grains being measured, but it *IS* consistent, i.e, I can measure a charge on it that is repeatable to a single kernal or perhaps two of Varget. I think that consistency is more desirable - and I'm not convinced that an electronic scale would provide that consistency, at least within a price range I am willing to pay. An electronic scale would be faster, probably.

One of these days perhaps testing scales would be a good winter-time project.

I would like not to have to weigh charges. I have a Harrell's Custom 90, and it throws Varget to within a range of about .4 grains, which is not sufficient for precision work. If tests with the Ram Tac powder prove to be good, I'll probably switch to that when my current almost-new jug of Varget is gone, as it'll probably meter better than Varget - I hope.

Michael: I'm getting about 2675 out of 44.5 grains of Varget driving a 175SMK, Lapua unfired brass, Fed 210M primers, Win. 26" Model 70, 75 degrees on a standard pressure day, with an extreme spread of 35 and an SD of 9.2. That was a 20-round average. I don't think we're far off.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 20:23:21 (ZULU)


Shooters,

WCRC will be hosting a 1K prone match Sunday, May 18th. The course of fire is 30 minutes to fire unlimited sighters and 20 shots for record. Registration starts at 8AM, firing starts at 9AM CST.

After the match, shooters will have the opportunity to shoot out to 500 yards for data collection and such.

Match fee is $15, all calibers except 50BMG are allowed. Standard NRA prone rifle and F class rules apply, but all attepts will be made to accomodate all shooters.

Get with me for drive direction and for any further questions.

BTW,, we'll be holding an 80 shot regional XTC match Saturday as well, if you're interested.  8AM resistration.

FatBoy...

sweepman@tds.net

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 21:14:29 (ZULU)


Hey Guys.

Picked up SCLE #35 today.  HOLY CRAP!!! What a beautiful weapon.  Anyway, I took her out to the range today to get her on paper etc.  

I have the LR M3 mounted on her.  Here's the question.....

I boresighted it.  I'm hitting about 4.5" high at 100 yards and I have it "bottomed out".  What the hell do I do now?  Is this just the reality of owning a M3?  I'm totally confused/frustrated now.  So all of you who are familiar (which seems to be everyone except me) with the M3, what do I do now?!

God, will I ever NOT be the FNG?! Sheesh....

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 21:53:32 (ZULU)


Rich,

You have to zero the rifle with the elevation cap off.  Take the cap off and use a screwdriver or coin to turn the elevation dial.  When your zeroed at 100 yds, put the dial back on, rotate the cap so the dot is on the 0 clicks, 100 yds mark then tighten the allen screws to lock the dial.  For windage zero at 100 yds in then loosen the set screws and rotate the dial so its lined up on the 0 mark.

Ted Email this member See this member's profile
San Diego, CA, - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 22:06:27 (ZULU)



Rich: Assuming that you're using a slanted base - 20 MOA is the usual - you just need to take the elevation turret off by loosening the three hex-head set screws around its perimeter near the top. Then crank the elevation down using a big screwdriver or a coin on the slot. Once you've got the elevation set at 100 yards that way, then put the elevation turret back on, with the knob set to 0 MOA. The upper mark will read "1", for one hundred yards. You'll want to do the same with the windage turret, i.e., when you have it zero'ed, loosen the turret screws and rotate them around to read zero. Bingo - you're good to go, assuming that you have a turret on that corresponds to the load you're shooting. Keep breathing!

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 22:12:29 (ZULU)



Thanks Ted,

I tried that but the dial underneath the cap wouldn't go any further. How hard should it be to turn?  I tried with a coin (all I had), but I didn't want to "torque" it too hard.  

OK (after second edit) I think I got it!  It was just a little hard to turn it with a coin.  Screwdriver workie great.

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 22:13:23 (ZULU)


Spud,

>> And what John L said! (You guys all speak so much purtier than me!)  

Crap, whadd I mess up now? <heh>

On Harrell measures, Jeff Chosid did a pretty exhaustive analysis on them a while back, can't find exact URL now.  But basically he found that while it 'ran easier' it proved to be no more accurate than a Redding, 3BR I believe.  http://www.mohighpower.com/Reloading.htm

Glad the M3LR is up Rich; I like that scope enough that I own, well, more than one <heh>.

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 23:57:09 (ZULU)


John L.: that URL doesn't work for me - I can't even get to the basic URL of http://www.mohighpower.com. Is that URL correct?

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 00:46:27 (ZULU)


Verifying Accuracy of Scales:

If you're not sure of your scales accuracy you can check it yourself for a relatively small investment.  In fact some scales come with an auxillary weight that you can use to check your scale with.  A word of caution, this auxillary weight is usually used to increase the capacity of the scale say from 500 grains to 1000 grains but it doesn't weight 500 grains.  Look on the side of the weight and you will find the actuall weight stamped there.  RCBS, Lyman and others sell scale check weights.  RCBS sells 2 versions: Standard set of 60.5 grains for powder charges (2x20, 1x10, 1x5, 2x2, 1x1, 1x.5).  Deluxe set of 510.5 grains for bullets, cases and powder (1x200, 2x100, 1x50, 2x20, 1x10, 1x5, 2x2, 1x1, 1x.5, 1 forceps).  Lyman also sells 2 sets; Deluxe 10-piece set has 210.5 grains total weight.  “New” shooters set totals 60.5 grains for normal powder use range.  I suggest you get the set that will cover the weight range you will be using the scale for.

With beam type scales the process is simple.  Once you level and zero your scale you simply set the scale for the weight of the check weight then place it in the pan, it should return to zero or indicate balanced.  I check each weight individually and then in various combinations.  In fact using combinations you can sometimes match the weight of the charge you are loading so you are assured that it is right.  Digital scales should be calibrated using the manufactures weights and procedures.  Once that is done you can check the scale against the check weights.

I think the reason why reloaders will weight individual charges is because the powder measure being used does not meter the particular type of powder accurately enough.  Or, we are just trying to eliminate one more excuse from the list of why we might have missed that last shot!  An interesting ad I remember reading about the Dillon 550B press was that the U.S. Palma Team used them for their practice ammo.  I keyed on the phrase "practice ammo."  Then what were they using for their match ammo?  Heck, 800, 900 and 1000 yard ammo from a powder measure that uses a hex bolt to adjust the cavity in the charge bar.  But without a scale to initially set the charge bar you're probably better off using Lee Powder Scoops.

Consistancy is the key after SAFETY!  It would really mess up your day if you blew yourself up while reloading the ammo and worse while shooting it because you'll also lose a good shooting iron :)

Adjusting Scopes:

I like to keep things simple, just loosen the allen screws and rotate the knob far enough to give you the adjustment room you will need and snug them back down.  Now make your adjustments and shots to verify.  Once your zero is achieved then loosen the screws and set the dials to their appropriate settings.  Hopefully I have avoided loosing the dials while making those final shots, not over torqued one of the adjustment screws or gouged them because I don't have or they don't make screw drivers that fit the slots.  K.I.S.S.

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 00:57:05 (ZULU)


Pat,

Have you gotten to try the N560 yet?  

Any word on your chamber specs?  Have you asked your Smith to either get you a drawing, shadow graph,, or give you the manfacturer and model so you can order a spec sheet?  JPG and JGS were outstanding to work with, as was clymers.  No charge on the sheets,, they just faxed them over.  

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 01:25:27 (ZULU)



Rich!!!

Make sure your scope is centered up for windage!!  If it is way off the reticle could be up against one of the interior walls of the scope and you may be dicking it up!  The turrets shouldnt be that hard to turn.

ALso I cant remember but are there lock screws on the adjustment screws?

Out here

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 01:43:21 (ZULU)



ASC#2..last post before rounds downrange.

 Rod and I were on the mountain today in the rain..Didn't get a lot done because Rods' F250 decided to take a dive off the "road".  Drove to Seneca in old Toyota, got chains, back to mountain, put chains on F250, and remained stuck!!!!!  Brock and Matt Harper came to the rescue with a tractor and all is well.

 Have had a couple of folks drop out of the match because it might rain!! Hello? "Holy shit dude, it's raining, lets stop the op. right now!" Right! WTF over>#^*. As my wife said, "sniper dudes my ass!".

Have to agree with medicjim in that if the cows aint blowin' around we'll be shootin'. {Although, Wed. I had a pair of sheep and the sheep dog go by me at about 35MPH, and they weren't runnin'}.

 Andys' dad;  Look down from Yokums deck at the shop, something might be happening there, or, you know where we live.  We wont be partying into the wee hours, but a social call would be OK with us.

 We look forward to seeing many of you again, and meeting those we don't already know..

 Bring a good attitude, an open mind and all your shootin' stuff.  Remember, this is supposed to be fun!!!!!!!And no Whining!

 outa here

Markwell Email this member See this member's profile
The Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 02:53:16 (ZULU)


I got June Blue Press from Dillon.  It looks like they are going to start carrying Ramshot Powders as of next month.

John Email this member See this member's profile
Liberty, TX, - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 03:06:53 (ZULU)


Quick question,

Long ago when the Amaxes first were coming out I picked up some 168s and they didn't shoot too well from my 1:12 twist 308Win.

Today I picked up some 178s to try through my 300 with it's 1:10 twist, opened the box and I'll be danged the 178s are shorter in length than the 168s of old.   The old box of 168s that I have out in the garage are LONG suckers.

I seem to recall some discussion about how the Amaxes went through a design change some time back.    Are the 168s a more conventional design now or are they still unique when compared to the 178grain Amax?   If there was such a redesign, was it for the better?   If the 168s have changed I suppose I might give those another try.

thx for any info

B. Douglas Email this member See this member's profile
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 03:56:23 (ZULU)


Best price found so far on TAC, or Ramshot

http://usashootingsupplies.com/index.shtml

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 03:59:26 (ZULU)


Gooch,

Yeah, I thought of that, and just about every other bit of info I'd heard in the past 6 years I've been here.  Too bad it was all at once as my mind was racing to try and figger out what was going on. I was about 4.5" high and about 5" left at 100.  When I got home I removed the cap and tried to adjust with a screwdriver (instead o' the nickel at the range).  It was easier to turn with the screwdriver (I didn't have to grunt...which considering I'm a out of shape musician should tell you something), and it had positive clicks etc.

We'll see how it works out.  Unfortunately I gotta wait until next Thursday to tell.....

Thanks,

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 04:22:26 (ZULU)


HEY 'LITO!!!!!

Just a reminder - If youz and the rooskie ain't left yet, go back and tripple check that youz gots yer bolt and ammo!

Steve~Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 06:22:20 (ZULU)


We're outa here!!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 10:40:18 (ZULU)


REF M118LR

Back in 1989 there was a Sniper Ammunition test at Quantico. There were some weird things about the test like the Marine snipers did not shoot, their MRT shot the test using M40A1s. The SSIS ran the ranges and spotted targets, the NCOIC was Range Master! Other things as well but mostly not important right now.

Anyway, Navy Seals were there (RJ Thomas included), an AF security cop, AF competition shooters, and reps from both Army sniper schools. Guns included Match M14s, M24s, M40A1s, Seal 700s (McMIllans), an M21, and a rack grade M14 with a ?? scope in a B-Square mount. At 300 yards the M14 was dropped and the AF cop borrowed an Army M21 to complete the test.

The point of the test was Olin (then running LC) wanted to prove the snipers could not shoot and all the complaints about the "Lake City Flyer" were unfounded and M118SB was good stuff.

Groups were fired at ranges from 200 to 1000 yards and all of the data was collected and published in a report. Not only were groups fired by individuals but from the machine rest as well. Olin measured every rifle there, checked headspace, chamber configuration (mil-spec vs Saami), and firing pin protrusion. In the end Olin acknowledged they had a problem.

Each day after shooting an AAR was conducted and comments solicited. During these Olin asked what a new "sniper" cartridge should be and LCDR RJ Thomas asked for more fps. Olin said it would lead to problems with the gas guns and RJ said "we'll live with it". Others there said no to boosting the pressures because they lacked the resources or had operational constraints that precluded replacing guns after 1000 rounds. Anyway, this may be one piece of the puzzle behind the hot loading.

Marc

Marc Palmer Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 13:55:02 (ZULU)



Chris..

  Funny you should mention that. I just got 50 rounds of new Norma brass yesterday. I took one and put it in the rifle and closed the bolt on it an it fit like a glove.

  I miked the base of the new brass and it was about .001 smaller than the Hornady and about .002 smaller than the fired full length sized Norma brass. When he says small side of the specs hes not kidding!!

  I loaded 15 rounds and went to the range to break it in. The damn wind was blowing 15 gusting to 20mph so it was not a good day for cleaning while at the range. I had crap blowing all over the place.

  I mainly wanted to see if it would extract a fired case without having to beat it out with a cleaning rod. I really wanted to know if I would have to send it back or not. The first fired round came out as nice as a factory load. Not one problem with it in the least, the new brass worked like a charm.  

 I did manage to get 10 break in rounds through it and then cleaned it good and shot a 5 shot group. The 5 shot went into a .382 with a load of 53grs of H-4831SC an 140AMAXs. I think its going to be a shooter.

  I hope to get out next  week with a cronograph to see where I am at. I need a day where the wind doesn't blow. The last time I was out I had it sandbaged down an it still tore the sky screens off an broke them, so I had to buy new ones last month.

  I will try to get some data for you asap and let you know what it does. I need to do some more groups with this load and see what its going to do also. Will let you know.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 14:26:12 (ZULU)


Clever parody of "Peace Process" types' mindsets.  Duman, Lindy, Pablo and a few others should enjoy it.  We're facing that same mindest with this "Roadmap" nonsense.

"You don't just go in, defeat the enemy, make it clear that aggression doesn't pay, humiliate and topple a dictatorship, and then expect democracy to follow in the wake of military catastrophe with peace as the dividend. The world doesn't work that way anymore."

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson051603.asp

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 14:52:33 (ZULU)


Peace is imposed by force of arms after war.  Always has been, always will be.  We took all the arms away from the Germans and Japs after WWII and said play nice or we kill you.  Why are we not doing the same thing to the Iraqis?  IMPOSE peace upon them, establish order at gunpoint, anything else is stupid.

Interesting Marc, gas guns are FUBAR'ing it for us bolt gunnners(read: real 'snipers', not 'DM's')  Maybe it's time to look harder at GETTING AWAY FROM THE LIMP DICK 308 WIN NATO STANDARD COP OUT BULLSHIT!!!  Note for all, I'm not attacking Marc, I'm pissed at the chronic stupidity and LCD thinking that is ingrained at higher levels of the military structure.  If you're going to run the rounds at wimp pressures to keep gas guns alive(because you're too cheap to spend money on maintainence and enough 2112's), to the point where all your troops think you should field new ammo to take advantage of the strength of the bolt gun, maybe you should consider using a BETTER GODDAMNED CARTRIDGE!!!  Enough, we've been over this before.  S/F...Ken M        

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 15:15:08 (ZULU)


118LR,

Hmmm,, I was under the impression that the Army/SOTIC asked for the 2600fps rounds.  Guess I was sadly mistaken.  

So,, what does the military do to solve this?  Do they issue different ammo to the DM's, than the snipers?  That's a viable option I think,, but you'd have to have a CDR that knew the difference between SB and LR, or ensure TO&E required X amount be kept on hand.

Do they get rid of the antique M14's finally, and go to AR-10's/Sr-25's?  I think this is a better option,, but I'm sure there are those of you who disagree.

What's ya'lls take on this,, as it's obvious everyone but KenM is upset about the ammo change. ;))

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 16:27:51 (ZULU)


FatDude...

It would have been no problem to get the M14's to function with the 175SMK-2685fps load... a damn lot easier than changing EVERYBODY'S ammo and then changing ALL the M3 cams...

... military intellegence! HA!

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 16:49:33 (ZULU)


>>>>So,, what does the military do to solve this?<<<<

Adopt a new cartridge for the snipers, since they get seperate ammo anyways, which the S4 ammo tech MF's can never seem to get right, even though ammo is THEIR job.

>>>>Do they issue different ammo to the DM's, than the snipers?<<<<

Yes ,and no.  

#1:  The DM's should be using 5.56 because that's what's available at the squad level, where the DM is employed.  There is NO 7.62x51 at the squad level or platoon level, it's with the MG's, which are weapon's Plt.  The proper choice for this is the SAM, which is the west coast(1stMARDIV) gun.  A flat top AR essentially.  The DMR(East Coast 2ndMARDIV) is for EOD and security forces, where they need the added ass of 7.62 to disable fuzes, and shoot glass(counter terror/police like mission) in support of the door kickers.

#2:  The DMR(either SR25 based or M14 based like the USMC is doing because they are cheap and short sighted) should probably not be running M118LR unless you are willing to have the trained techs on hand to maintain the rifles.  If you are not willing to do it right, adapt to your cheapness.  So M118LR should be detuned to 2600 fps.  

#3:  The snipers(real snipers, bolt guns, Bn level) should be issued a rifle using a round that takes into account performance, range, and barrel life.  IMO, something like the 7-08, 260Rem, 6.5x55 or a totally NEW cartridge in this range should be used in something like the AI series of rifles, with a suppressor.  The more I look at these rifles, the more I like them.  I'm coming to hate(coming?  Shit, been hating since '97)  all things relating to the support structure of the infantry Bn.  Even if you have good guys at your level, there are too many levels of stupid pogues between you and the guy who actually fixes things.  With the AI, YOU CAN DO IT ALL YOURSELF AND SKIP THE POGUES.  I can't stress enough the importance of pogue elimination/supression.  The only solution I see to keeping current style rifles(M40A1/A3, M24, etc) up and running is to use outside private sector vendors like George Garder, IBA, etc etc.  But that won't(can't) happen due to the broken Mil contracting process that requires you to employ more lawyers than machinists, at least for the USMC outside of the MEU(SOC)/Force community.      

>>>> That's a viable option I think,, but you'd have to have a CDR that knew the difference between SB and LR, or ensure TO&E required X amount be kept on hand.<<<<<

Keeping ammo on hand would work(as we've gone over before;), but all the pogues would constantly worry about having ammo around and they fear someone using it on them(with good reason, they deserve death for their slothlike ways) so it ain't going to happen.  The CO ain't the guy who needs to know ammo, it's the ammo techs, who are pogues in the S4 shop.  In all fairness to the pogues, and the decent folks who work in pogue jobs, the very procedures they must follow ensure that nothing gets done.  It's set up this way, not sure why.  

It really doesn't matter, there's no real threat to the nation, so nothing will get changed.  Those who go and die overseas are volunteers and are considered expendable when compared to some congress critter getting kick backs from the companies in his district or the generals getting empoyed by said companies after retiring.  Read your history about the US military procurement industry around the US Civil War, that's got the best documentation.  Anyhow, too much coffee.  Going to go clean rifles and prep for helo ops tomorrow.  Hopefully be in a better mood Sunday.  S/F...Ken M  

 

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 17:04:47 (ZULU)


Douglas; the A-max that first hit the market had a long nose and a ballistic coef. that was very good. The only problem was that if you loaded it back into the case far enough to fit in the 700 magazine it was a mile from the lands. They changed the design and possibly rerated the coef. although it wasn't published anywhere I saw. The end result was lower coef but better accuracy with the new nose. You probably will have better luck with the new rounds or load them single shot and stick em against the lands.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 17:26:28 (ZULU)


Douglas..

 Yotebait is correct, Hornady did have some problems with the earlier designs. They were actually a VLD bullet in desigh with a high BC but they had problems coming apart even in the 308s. I had some of the earlier 6.5s in the 140s they had a BC of .640 but when shot would come apart. I shot several one hole groups and I do mean "ONE" hole because the rest blew up before they got to the target.

 The new bullets are much better and though not as high in BCs shoot better. My 6.5s love the AMAXs and they shoot extremly well at long range.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 16, 2003, at 17:42:26 (ZULU)


Brogers: You have mail  through the SCDR.

I am looking for loading info on the 300RUM. Have a friend that is having one built and wants to get into reloading. Trying to get him started with a decent load W/O having to completely go through load development.

Don't know if the email system (SCDR) is functioning. Have sent some with no return answer.

Please reply to tam308@aol.com.

Thanks,

TonyM

TonyM Email this member See this member's profile
US of A!!!!!! - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 19:26:52 (ZULU)


Sinister Dave,

Hit me off-line. Email address I have for you is Tango Uniform.

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 19:35:23 (ZULU)


>>>military intellegence<<<

Isn't that an oxy-moron...?  like 'happily married' and 'jumbo shrimp??'

We're the Government and we're here to help you...

Bwwwaaaaa Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

Larry

(Sharon)

(The check's in the mail...)

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!! - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 19:51:44 (ZULU)


Ken: I wish you'd stop beating around the bush, and tell us what you really think! BTW, with respect to Iraq, Jay Garner worked for the State Department. Paul Brenner works for Don Rumsfeld. I wouldn't be surprised to see some attitude changes there very quickly. And I wish our President would clean out that viper's nest which is the State Department. Many of them make the French look militant.

CDC: Hanson is really good at satire, and I wish Maggie were still running the U.K.

And I hope all the guys at ASC have a blast. I'm envious. I may go next year, even if I can't shoot.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 20:22:01 (ZULU)


I second that, "Bring Maggie back".

Well i took my Brit hunters back to the airport today, they had a most enjoyable week, shot 4 pigs between em, saw lots of game, Roe Deer, Red Deer, Fallow Deer, Pigs and Mouflon, didn't get the right angle on a trophy mouflon and the one guy who wanted a big boar for a full mount decided that a winter coat would be a better option, so he is comming back when it gets cold again. The part of Germany they where hunting is like a different world,( but its 1 hour from where i sit now) the people are so great, definately not this kiss assed frenchy following types, right wing conservatives, everyone got along together great, eat lots of good food(the wild boar sausages where superb) drank lots of Bavarian beer. i love it when a plan comes together. Its aint easy to juggle 12 hour night shifts and 4 hunting guests. Goddamn Stone (or maybe a Pine) Martin got under the hood of my car and chewed some damn hoses, just wait till i catch the little B.@#$rd.

I see Powell was visiting Germany this week.

The UK have stopped all Brit flights to Kenya.

Some Italian bloke shot his terminally ill wife , then went around to two doctors practices and shot the docs too, before he turned the gun on himself, the gun he used wasn't registered, but he had some that where, guess us sane gun owners will cop the crap for that too.

Nowt much else to report from Krautland at the mo.

Have fun shooting at the w/end fellas.. good luck to you all.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 20:55:02 (ZULU)



Lindy,

Tested that link out, it seems to be working fine for me.  Anyone else having problems with it?

http://www.mohighpower.com/Reloading.htm

Edit : Aha, just noticed if you cut and paste the one inside that article, a space gets inserted.  The one above should work, though.

- - -

On the .300 RUM, I have put a small bit of info up about my experiences so far with this cartridge; I like it a lot.

http://leveron.com/john/300rum/

It continues to shoot like a dream.  I am not a big fan of recoil, and while it has amazing blast, it has low recoil.  It must be  shot prone though, and 'straight-line'.  Which is how I shoot, so that's fine.

John L

(who is missing ASC #2, but will be at SniperQuest 2003 in June . . .)

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Friday, May 16, 2003, at 21:41:27 (ZULU)


John: Works now. Thanks for the link.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 00:16:00 (ZULU)



Pat,

Glad to here the Norma fit, and extracts correctly!!  With a chamber that tight, you shouldn't work the brass too much.  I have one with a .297" neck and a .498" body, and after 8 firings the brass is still fine.

I had a box of 140AMAX's in my hand yesterday, and set them back down.  With all the trouble I've had out of powder as of late,, I can't see introduction another variable.  One of these days I'll try the AMAX's,, but the 142's fly so well,, it's hard spending throat with more testing.

Ken,

I noticed you picked calibers that'll go 4000 rounds ;)  I see what you're saying about the snipers already getting different ammo than general supply.  And as far as the AI rifles go,, you could bring two barrels in country with you, a 308 and one with better BC's, and pick which one would fit the mission best. They're plug and play as far as barrel swaps,, so you'd have the best of both worlds.  No real need for an ubercal in a MOUT situation,, but a 308 is lacking pulling airport security. I guess there's an argument about changing zero,, but how often will you not have time to comfirm zero???

PeteL,

Good to see ya back man.  

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 00:28:52 (ZULU)


CNN poll on AW ban....

Here.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/wolf.blitzer.reports/

Go there now and vote.....

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 02:05:59 (ZULU)


Gents,

Most of you are on your way, or happily ensconced in place, for the shoot this year. Wish I could be there with you...my best to all.

Hold Hard!

Pat/Chris and the 6.5 X .284 crowd. I've had superb luck with Norma brass in my rifle. The chamber was cut with a Blackhills Ammo spec reamer, so it should fit Norma brass and 142 gr SMK's.

I have reloaded some cases over five times and they are still tight and shooting consistently under .5". Brass literally falls out of the chamber after firing. Lapua acts in a similar fashion.

Pete, I'm jealous of all your hunting. Would love to get over there and hunt boar, deer, and such. Who knows what the future will bring?

The German folks you refer to are what we call "country folk" around here. Still have their pride and value packages intact. Enough said.

The DMR. Marines are still wedded to the M-14. It was and is a great rifle, but an AR-10 or SR-25 would be a better choice today, IMHO.

Calibers...the .308 will continue to rule until we go to lasers. It's getting the job done. Other tools are making it easier and it still has what the government is looking for...barrel life and accuracy.

Lapua on the way from George. I'm counting the days!

Now if Whit Engel will just develop some sub-sonics for it and someone a great suppressor we'd REALLY be in business!

All for now. Work beckons on the 'morrow.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 03:17:21 (ZULU)


Good Luck in the Competition this week-end!

I have a question about Tactical Intervention Slings; The Model Quick Cuff TWO ( Non-slip)... versus the Model TWO Slip version.  Which one in your opinion is the best one?  What are the advantages between the two?

I'm getting ready to purchase one, but was wondering about the slip version...... ??!?

Thanks for your time,

BearMan

BearMan Email this member See this member's profile
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 04:48:47 (ZULU)


Personally I find all this talk about DMR's really amusing. Yes, I agree. Let's get rid of that 40 year old design, it is antiquated, obsolete, and just flat no fun. Much like myself and my friends. But by all means, let's keep the 100 year old pattern, it just works too well. Or, let's slide all the way to the opposite extreme, and take something that hasn't really been wrung out as extensively as it should be prior to mass manufacture. Except the companies that build these new toys aren't exactly capable of true mass manufacture. Ah well. I suppose that's just me being my antiquated self, I just use proper powder and don't have any problems, at least none that dump dirty waste gasses back in my receiver feed area. The lousy thing is that now I'm thinking about it. Truly glad I work a bolt, but concerned about the logic some folks use. I will make this open offer though, if any of you are having problems with your '72 Mach 1, I'll take it off your hands. Just explain to me that it was running like a thoroughbred for all those years, until you started filling the tank with kerosene, so the car is lousy. I'll pay at least thirty bucks for it.

'Yote bait, you got cover or concealment?

Jaeger Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 05:33:24 (ZULU)


One more time...

THe USMC is using the M14 based system because the 2112's that were tasked to develop the DMR are M14 fans and by having the 2112's build it it makes work for them justifying thier existance at the PWS.  If the USMC simply went out and bought Bushmaster HB M16A3's that would show that the 2112's were expendable.

Note they changed thier name from Rifle Team Equipment Repair Shop to the Precision Weapons Shop to hide the fact that they are primarily a shooting team support facility when you dig down.  

Maybe someday they will get on the ball and develop a .223 DMR.  Hell if some of the guys  at Quantico had their way the teams would still be shooting M14's and .45's even though the AMU and NGMTU teams would spank 'em.

Out here

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 06:39:37 (ZULU)


Good morning rostah!

Pete, saw on TV that the Dragoon Guards made it back to Germany from Iraq...looked like happy campers

6.5 x 284,

All right...this is my understanding, there is a CIP chamber(that Norma issued to get the round standardised) and there is the chamber that Norma actually uses, ie, their 'match' chamber..The CIP chamber is for the lawyers, think remington triggers, the match chamber is what works..Who is using which print is the question..I've got the JGS chamber prints at work, perhaps an updated CIP book, will have to check that against the PP reamer, just to satisfy my curiousity..how many chambers are out there

CIP...loose tolerances and it's all in French...

later

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 09:31:17 (ZULU)


I am leaving this morning for the first of my bi-annual trips to the Whittington Center to camp and play.  I am taking a Stealth and SCLE #10 to play with.

Back in 10 days...

Larry

(Sharon)

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!! - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 13:19:17 (ZULU)


I live with a weekend rain cloud over ma head. Nuff said.

Targetplot....

Anyone used this program? Trying to think of an excuse to by one of those palm pilot thingies. http://www.targetplot.com/

A used 6.5x284.....?

Is there such a thing and does anyone have one they want to part with?

7mag....

After a week of surfing the subject, I find no real tactical use for the round. Amazing.

Nato and UN...

It amazes me that we have the bestest military in the whole damn world yet the Fed Gov still thinks that we have to be a member of those limp wristed organizations. The hell with them. We just need to find out (already have) who our buds are, start up our own little club and tell the rest to kiss our rusty old asses. I'm sure we could find a buyer for the UN building. What they gonna do, send the French over here to take it back?????

Bushnell boresighter kit....

A great piece of work! I use it just like Master Bowcher indicates and didn't even take his course LOL! Also, for you blackpowder shooters, they have a 50cal insert.

Paralax....

Dang it. Nuff said.

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 14:44:13 (ZULU)


Jaeger; I'm pretty well exposed~ ! The old M14 design isn't dead but it's like me, it's failing a little.  I'd still prefer it too the new stuff but I've lived too long for a lot of things.

Saw one of the new Bushmaster Varminters with 26"(I think) fluted barrel and 2 stage trigger. Looks really nice. Things like that tempt me. It almost looks like a real gun.

HI PETE!

Envy all over me Larry! Have fun up there!

JR, others, I'm noticing that match chambers and just plain ole rebarrels around are becoming so different in size from the factory stuff, it's common to blow primers with the first shots,even on less than full house loads, I wonder about factory ammo in these things, with folks like PMC and Corbon using C4 and nuclear waste for powder. That seems like a lot of difference to me. Sad that factory is so out of porportion to what really shoots.

Wes, "great suppressor" Now that's a oxy moron for you.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 14:47:55 (ZULU)



Buschnell Bore Sighter............

I have one, and I can hardly bear the thought of sticking a HARD chromed spud into a SS Hart/Rock /etc barrel.

Why, they do not make the spuds out of brass is beyond me.

Anyone ever scoped a muzzle end bore, after sticking one of these into the bore??.

I would be interested to see if they leave damage.

They are fine for factory barrels.....how much damage can you cause on a damaged barrel to begin with.

Any comments from the JR's, and George G's on these chromed spuds??.

Would be interesting on their take.

Any comments on a SURE fire Varget load for a 5R barrel( assuming your powder is of the OLD persuasion??).

I have heard Lapua/44.0/F210M's, will do the trick...but, at what velocity??

Looking for the OLD 2685fps data.

Muchas Gracias

Dos Zapatos

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 15:45:21 (ZULU)


Bolt, we could lease out the U.N. building for condos and make a profit on that nest of spys. What is your take on the SARS virus? It's a great day, wish i was shooting.

Fred Hartman Email this member See this member's profile
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 16:14:58 (ZULU)


HOG's I am walking, well sort of anyway. Look like an Old Cowboy after a long ride and being throw many times.

On M14, nice piece of nostalga. I will stick with more modern designs if I have to hump it. Too many things to go wrong with it if you want MOA accuracy from one. Beddding fails, but is a reliable and would not worry about defending myself with one.  After all these years I love the standard version but its no sniper rifle to deploy with.

Bearman, on the slings, since I designed them maybe I can help.

Quick Cuff has detachable cuff and works like Match Rifle Sling with a Fastex quick connect/disconnect. This allows you to quickly get into and out of shooting positions without having to do the contortions a 1907 design makes you do. This is important to a field sniper because no movement to give you away. The cufff styas on your arm.  After having hundreds of military snipers try both they have all picked the Quick Cuff over the Slip Cuff for field use.

The Slip Cuff is a modern 1907 design out of better materials and using sliders instead of the stupid metal hooks to adjust. Much tougher than a leather sling and far more adjustment. Most police snipers have liked this better because no detachable cuff to loose. Cops can never find their gear.  IT is a great shooting sling also but like any 1907 design you need to wrap into it and this movement is slower and can give you away.  For hunting its my favorite sling because I never have a problem with Bambi with this.

Just depends on what you like and need.

Undude/Mike

MikeMIller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 17:14:01 (ZULU)



Wars are fought and blood is spilled over the DM rifle question, but I'm going to foolishly blunder in and ask a naive question.

How about an ACOG on AR flattop?  Use a medium good standard contour barrel and touch up the trigger a little.  Maybe go semi only and use a two stage trigger.  On the civilian market you could get the whole rig - with back up sights - for well under $2,000.

Easy to hump, maintainable without adding capabilities, accurate as it needs to be, and easily shootable by anyone who has hunted rodents with a .22.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 17:43:21 (ZULU)


Shoes: Tony has been getting 70 to 80 fps more out of his SCLE barrel than I was getting out of my HBV with the same loads - that barrel is SLICK. He fired a few of the 175 SMK loads I worked up with 44.5 grains of Varget, Lapua brass, F210M primers, OAL 2.80, that produced 2675 in mine, but we couldn't chrony them because it was blowing like stink and the chrony was blowing over. I'll bet that 43.5 to a max of 44.0 would get you there.

If we get that puppy back out when a hurricane is not blowing, I'll know more, as that's going to be my standard load until we can test Ramshot TAC. We had fun, anyway - an Alvin SWAT officer came out to shoot with us, and none of the vehicles actually blew downwind. Finest way to spend the morning I can think of.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 17:51:57 (ZULU)


 Mike......what keeps the quick cuff from riding down your sleeve when not hooked into the sling? Will it stay in place w/o sewing it in place say while you walk through the woods or does it have to be cinched up pretty tight above the bicep?

Mark Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 19:21:21 (ZULU)


Mike,

Thanks for explaining the difference......

I will be calling Mon. to order the NON-SLIP model TWO !!!

Thanks for your time,

Chad Lawson

BearMan Email this member See this member's profile
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 20:58:46 (ZULU)


Mark, what keeps the cuff from slipping?  Mostly my bicep.LOL

Not much of a problem. I use a poly webbing on the cuff thats a little rough so it sticks pretty good. Some guys have complained it was rough on bare arms but thats why the poly webbing for the cuff and nylone (more slip but tougher and more chemical resistant) for sling.

Some guys tag sew the cuff. Some sew a belt loop like thing on sleeve. Some just wear it as is (Thats me)

Undude

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 21:13:36 (ZULU)


'Yote Bait,

"""Saw one of the new Bushmaster Varminters with 26"(I think) fluted barrel and 2 stage trigger. Looks really nice."""

And you expect us to believe you'd stick with a 26" barrel??  How long before you whacked that barrel down to 20" or below ;))

Bolt,

I think it was mensioned before, but secret service used the 7mag for some time.  I spoke with two of them that said they'd loose a bullet from time to time.  That may be why they are or have already swicthed to 300WM.

A used 6.5x284??  It's just a barrel man, and you likely don't want a used one!!!!  If you had a wild hair, you could make the HBV a switch barrel, provided you used a #6 contour 6.5 barrel,, but many are going to this profile anyway,, as a #6 in 30" is far lighter than a #7 or #8.  When I get my ass in gear and buy my reamer,, I'll lend it to ya and you can have someone cut you a tube.

CDC,

I think you pretty much just described the SPR.  There's an article in the new American Rifleman that goes over the newer optics being used in Iraq and A'Stan.  Seem like the flat too, 2X sight M16 has come of age.  Put a free float tube on these, ala DCM gun, and you'd have one hell of a shooter witrh 77Gr Black hills.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 21:15:41 (ZULU)



Terry the two shoed glockamolian zapato,

bore spuds:

As per usual it all depends on the common sense of the user on these types of things...If the expander is anything less than smooth, it will probably scratch your bore.  If it looks or feels rough, get it fixed or replaced..

But it's not so much marring on the rifling I'm concerned with on the spuds, but possibly f'n up when jamming it thru the muzzle, my concern is with da croon..Know what I used to use?  custom made by me cerrosafe/solder bore casts...Probably could just take the spuds apart and wrap some teflon tape round the expanders, then put back together, maybe wrap some masking tape evenly round the tapered bit so it's not so much metal to metal contact..

Someone should make some sort of rubber or plastic crown protector that you just snap in whenever you need to work from that end of the barrel......perhaps they all ready do

later

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 21:46:02 (ZULU)



JR - Good idea! I've got a crown protector I bought to protect the crown of my M1A from a cleaning rod. It's brass, with an O-ring. I'll try that with that spud to see if it affects the accuracy.

Chris - I thought that article in American Rifleman was interesting, in that it said that unit commanders now enjoy a lot of lattitude in what they can buy on their own authority to equip their people with rifles and optics that reflect what they think they need, as opposed to what some bean counter somewhere thinks they need, leading to a wide variety of M16-derived platforms in use. That policy can probably be carried to an extreme, but my suspicion is that even in the extremes it might still be better than stupid decisions made by people out of touch with the field.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 23:24:49 (ZULU)


  Well I broke in SCLE 47 today, and I must say...WOW!!!! This rifle shoots like a dream. George's break-in instructions were spot on, copper fouling damn near nil after round 6. A huge thanks to George and all of the G.A. Precision crew. Maybe I'll be able to make it to the match next year. I want to take some time to cuddle up to my new baby first :-)  Oh yeah, good luck at the match everyone!

Jim

Jim Wise Email this member See this member's profile
Frostproof, Fl, USA - Saturday, May 17, 2003, at 23:31:17 (ZULU)


Lindy,

I agree.  And as long as CO's still have to do a quarterly inventory, and inventory for COC, and have a limited credit limit on thier charge cards,, this could work out great.  I hope it continues.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 00:54:23 (ZULU)


On the DMR,   First of all about everything you guys have posted is at best only partially correct.  About everthing that has been written about them in Magizines or books has been biased or just plain wrong.  I am really good freinds with the Project Manager/NCOIC of the DMR program and he is not a M-14 guy he is actully a Pistol Guy.  

The USMC was able to build the DMR's becouse of the low cost of aquisition, they already had lots of new rifles lots of spare parts and enough money to buy match barrels from Kreiger stocks from Mcmillan and mounts from GGG.  The rest of it is just good gunsmithing and the adition of a Mk4 M3.      The fact that they just added another 800 units to the program speaks to how they are doing in the field as a Sniper/Marksmen weapon.   The Marines in the field using them love them,  the comanders seeing what the guys have done with them are pushing for more.  Its that simple.   Would an AR-10 or SR-25 be better they might??   They are alot more finiky when they get dirty or in a harsh envirement.  The M-14 can take alot of abuse.  Dont compare an M-14 to your Springfield M1A they are made alot differently.    By the way,   Our freind Marty at Badger Ordnance is making the rings for the DMR now and a new mount is being made at PWS for the current run of DMR's.

On another note, The Naval SWC , Crane is doing there own version of a DMR with the M-14 as well (Sage Int Stock) 800 units to start. Was at the NDIA show this week and talked to the Progect manager on this one.  He basicly said the guys want more than a 223 they want more range than they can get with SPR's and the 77gr bullet.

I remember Sinister saying that the M-14's were now back in the 82nd Airborne with one being issued to each squad.

I went on a tour of the Lake City Ammo plant and they were sure making alot of M118LR.  Which is the only 7.62 they package in boxes everything else is linked.  The plant manager for 50Cal and 7.62 was even wondering what they were doing with it all.  

George Out.            

George Gardner, G.A. Precision Email this member See this member's profile
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 01:35:33 (ZULU)


Jaeger;

  Kerosene helps clean those huge 351 Cleveland valves. I don't have a '72 Mach 1 but I have most of the engine in my garage.

LATER

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 01:44:35 (ZULU)


Mike's cuff doesn't slip.  It works fine.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 02:06:42 (ZULU)


George: Thanks for the information. Perhaps this proves the wisdom of the notion that when you try to make a single product, like the M16, do too much, you wind up with something which does nothing well. The military has had that kind of experience with airplanes, too. I have a particular fondness for the M14 which dates to the day in boot camp I had one handed to me. I'm glad there still seems to be a place for it. It will be interesting to see how continued experiments with other platforms works out.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 03:14:11 (ZULU)


I have to second what Lindy said above, it is always fun when you get to meet new people with like minds and interests.I am finally happy to see some of my tax dollars going to something I can appreciate. The SWAT officer that came out with us brought his new rifle. Remington LTR, Leupold 3.5x10 M1, Badger rings and mounts, a Starlight case. A first class weapon all the way. When he gets the trigger tuned it will be even better. I saw him shoot three CNS shots at 200 yards in a 15-20 MPH wind from the 2 O clock direction that all would have done the job. He also shot SCLE 50 and put 4 rounds into .292 at 100 yards in the same wind conditions with GMM 175's. SCLE 50 continues to impress the heck out of me as far as accuracy and ease of clean up. I shot it the last two days and have gotten no copper out of the barrel after about 18 rounds each day.

Wouldn't you know it, I get up this morning and there is hardly any wind. Such is life.

Tony Burkes

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
Alvin, Texas, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 03:26:20 (ZULU)



In 1990 wHen I first started messing around with the DMR concept I was at the MCSFBn, Pac and we wanted the DMR for FAST Co.  At that time the only choices were the M14's or the M40A1.  We tested the M40 vs Match Grade M14's from our MCSF shooting team.  Around the same time the RTE and the sniper school were farting around with the same thing but they were putting 6x Leupold compacts on them and we were using a variety of different scopes from Redfields to (ugh) Simmons.  All of the guys from FAST wanted the M40's so MCSF went with M14s built by Crane (did you all catch that?  The troops wanted the M40 so they went with the M14...?  Anyway...)  The navy M14's were the forerunner of the M25, heavy barrel, brookfield mounts, Mcstocks, B&L tactical etc.  Of course the Brookfields had to be tack welded onto the reciever to keep them from shooting loose...

Call me a dumb grunt but if an M14 sniper system is superior to an M16 based one then why are ALL the service teams and a shitload of civvies now shooting and winning with M16/AR15's?  Granted...punching paper is a lot different than killing bad guys but the shooting team programs have been the proving grounds for sniper rifles over the years.  At the actual distances the infantry DM will be employed, 600 meters and closer and probably within 300 meters, the 5.56 with heavy match loads would do the job fine with less recoil, easier maintainability, better scope mount system (with flat top) for both day and night optics and any other widgets that would fit on a Knights/Badger handguard.  

I dont think this problem that the DMR is working on in an infantry enviroment is actually related to the caliber/accuracy of the weapon it is more the abililty of the riflemen to locate and acquire a target so its more of a sighting system thing than a ballistic thing.

A Lcpl in a grunt unit is intimately familiar with shooting positions, care and cleaning, operation etc of an M16.  The Marines build a lot of match grade M16's now and I feel it would make more sense to use M16's than looking for things to do with a bunch of M14 recievers/barrels they have left over from the old Service Rifle inventory.  Like LtCol Chandler said they make great boat anchors....

As far as the SEALs go I'm sure they are looking for more range or whatever.  I generally dont look to the SEALs for too much in the rifle marksmanship arena..

And the regular Army's problem isnt so much that they need M14's as it is they need to teach the basic 11B/19D proper rifle marksmanship and get the hell away from 25 meter zeroing and pop up courses.  Also see above comment re: the problem being a target acquisition one.

I'm a big fan of the 2112's so dont get me wrong but I've gone round and round with a few of them over silly stuff over the years and sometimes the mindset eludes me.  LtCol Chandler and I both wrote letters to MTU about this subject back in 1998/99 and were both sumarily dismissed as not mattering.

In summary....

When you look at the mission of an infantry DM an M16 DMR is better due to the tranferal of weapons handling skills from the Marine/Soldiers M16 training, maintainablility is better as the unit armorer could replace parts and not have to send the rifle to a 2112, as far as marksmanship goes you have all the reasons why the AMU/MTU teams have switched to the M16 yada yada IT DONT MATTER CAUSE THE CORPS IS GOING WITH M14's ANYWAY SO I'LL STFU!!!!!  Of course we could go with the Canadian system of ALL flattops with Elcans or ACOGS on them and have an entire Division of DM's.......

ON a lighter note :-)

Saw a picture in a US News and World Report of 2 Iraqi soldiers laying dead in a trench after RM Commandoes had taken the position.  DAMN!  I dont think the Editor understood what all of the little teeny tiny holes in their uniforms and helmets were!  Bofem had about 50-60 5.56 holes in them....Jeeze some RM's were emptying magazines into that trench...

Nighty night....Yeah I'm in a grumpy mood, what about it? ;-)

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 04:39:19 (ZULU)


Gooch: I wonder if the terminal performance of the 7.62 at a distance is enough better than the 5.56 to make them preferable. A recon platoon commander back from Afghanistan reported having to regularly go to head shots with their M4s, even at relatively close distances.

All those holes you saw might have been from RMs firing Minimis - like the SAS, those guys tend to go heavy on firepower.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 05:09:40 (ZULU)


Lindy,

I heard that too but I would like to know if they were getting center mass body shots before they had to go to the head.

I have a question for you old timers or guys with actual experience.  Did the VC, Jerry, Japs etc all drop with one shot from a .30 cal/7.62?

I tend to believe that hits are what matters but I would like to hear from someone that has seen both rounds in combat.....Snot bro, Sinister, Beuler....??

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 05:26:17 (ZULU)


And Kent gets to the crux of it quickly.

With the statistics coming back now on average engagement distances, it appears that an old M-14, mildly stroked to gain a little in the accuracy department - mostly a switch to 1:10 barrel - would make an entirely suitable DMR in virtually complete GI issue guise, GI synthetic stock and all. With the possible exception of the auto selector.

You won't shoot farther than you can ID an enemy, and you won't be sniping. That's really a job for snipers, not designated marksmen.

Let's remember, a designated marksman needs the capability of punching through light cover. I don't see a 22 caliber anything being able to do that the way a 173 FMJ can, at any realistic range anyway.

As said before, a DMR isn't supposed to be a sniper rifle.

I'd just butt out of all this, like I do on most everything, but it seems to me that Rick and Sinister were happy to have a brand new rack grade M-14 in each squad. To me, that says something. Neither of those guys rode the small bus to school, if you get my drift. If they requested it, there's a reason. My first question in an effort of logical deduction would to be aimed at Sinister. Ask him how his men did, if they approved of the rifle, and if they would request to do the same thing again. That will speak volumes more than all our pontifications combined. If the guys were wanting to, or did, trade off those rack grades for a worked over M-16AXXX with whatever optics then that says it all right there. Let the real operators speak with their actions.

If memory serves, Rick said something about how those guys had taken to knocking over targets at DM distances with ease.

I still don't understand how an action designed and produced in 1898, or 1908 for you pistol packers, beats "modern" actions, but one from 1960 doesn't. Maybe it's just a case of everyone wanting to have the young and pretty thing hanging on you. Gotta admit, it looks and feels good!

As for Chandler, I'll just say that everyone has an opinion. Just because he has his, doesn't mean that it's signed off by God. Some guys that worked with him didn't agree with him either.

Jody, you're just bragging that the small Cleveland valves are bigger than the large Chevrolet valves on the same displacement, can't fool me.

Jaeger Email this member See this member's profile
the, black, forrest - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 05:39:53 (ZULU)


And Kent, in reply to your question about the superiority of the M-16 based systems in competition: as you said, a tricked out hole puncher does not a combat weapon make. If this were the case, everyone would be carrying single shot bolt actions, and they wouldn't be in 22 caliber. There's always a better deal, it's all a matter of compromises and money. How much you want to compromise on your combat weapon? Maybe I'm on the small bus now, but I keep thinking KISS.

Jaeger Email this member See this member's profile
the black forrest, - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 05:49:36 (ZULU)


Kent: What I saw was an article published a while back in the "Marine Corps Gazette", which I didn't save because of space limitations in this place I live in - the bookshelves are all full, and some floor space is being devoted to book storage. The recon platoon commander said that his guys were all well trained in the standard Mozambique failure drill, i.e., a double tap to center of mass followed by a head shot if the target was still standing, and that they almost invariably needed it. He also said that optical sights were a critical factor in being able to do that, which his guys had. He was noticeably unhappy with the terminal ballistics of his M4s. I don't know what bullet they were using.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 07:05:16 (ZULU)



My .308 is a Fn SPR and I have been trying and trying to figure out what was wrong with my groups. I bedded the rifle twice, shot different loads on numerous occaisions and still could not get the groups I wanted. Well I didnt solve all of it, but I think one thing I did definitly helped..

After examining the crown, I noticed that there was no chamfer on the 11º target crown that comes on the stock barrel. A friend suggested one of the Brownells crown chamfers.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1010&s=3607

So after looking them up on the web I bought one for $43.

The easy to follow instructions made the job easy and it actually took about 5 minutes total. Here is a web site where a fella used the Brownells Target Crown Cutter, while I already had a 11º crown, the process to chamfer the existing crown is almost identical.

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/targetcrown.html

The package I received included a plastic storage box, cutter, cutter handle, .30 cal brass pilot, and allen wrench. It is light and small enough that it can be used in the field for crown repairs.

My groups tightened up a bit from chamfering the crown, but I think I need to work on me now. Even if your crown is okay, I highly recommend the chamfer "just in case".

--------------------

Dean Miller Email this member See this member's profile
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 08:55:32 (ZULU)


Hogs,

Mike Roberts and I did some (more) preliminary testing of the Lapua 155 Scenar in my SCLE rifle.  This bullet still looks like a winner to me!

All loads so far have shot quite well at 100 yards, but I have not tested them out at range yet.

http://new.leveron.com/Lapua155ScenarData.html or click my name below.

John L

P.S.  If anyone still has the bullet cross section picture of the 155 Scenar, next to a 175 smk, please post the location of that picture.

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 10:02:16 (ZULU)


Are any of yous guys using 6.5swede in a modern rifle??What sort of performance are you getting?Its time to replace me old 96 but I really like the calibre and wonder if it might be pushed a bit harder in a modern rifle.

Good luck and a bunch of fun to them at asc.Hope Lito remembered all his shit.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis Email this member See this member's profile
prayin for rain, and shootin, downunder - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 10:47:56 (ZULU)



hi all !! im based in New Zealand and i hunt deer here, was looking at getting a rifle and there are a few questions that i hope you can help me with..  i have an injured right shoulder and cant handle to much recoil but the shots i will be taking are 300 to 500 yards , so what cal do you think wouldwork for me ,,  then there is the rifle,ive been looking at two brands 1.remington 700 and 2.wheatherby acumark?  also about the twist rate im a little confused about any info would be greatfully recived.

cheers

Matthew

Matthew Email this member See this member's profile
New Zealand - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 11:56:22 (ZULU)


John L...

I have that Scenar photo you want.  Send me your e-mail address to <coburn at optonline dot net> and I'll send it to you.

I'm off to shoot some Scenars this afternoon... what kind of groups are you getting??  Equal or better (or worse) than the 175SMKs?

-

Gav...

Me and the Rooski decided to pass on the match.  We were watching the weather for a week, and rain on both days was on the menu... The Rooski and I have done the rain thing together before, and we weren't in the mood for it now.  There were other issues (kids) too, so we decided to pass.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 12:35:49 (ZULU)


"did everything drop by one hit from a M1 or M14..?" Not at all!

A FMJ is a pussy, and expecially in a .223. IT penetrates metal if Armor piercing but it's a lousy round (FMJ)for accuracy and doesn't destroy enough flesh and have enough penetration to stop finatical troups....this is probably why there's a tendency to go back to M-14 type weapons. Any bullet will kill if it's placed right but .. it usually takes more than one to incapacitate or keep the enemy from firing back unless it's spot on something vital. NO matter what is discussed around the tables in the Pentagon, troops in the field want the enemy "DEAD!" not wounded so they have to be cared for or rounded up or shooting back. Snipers seem to think in  terms, about being spot on and that's good but it seldom happens either. The target may move slightly or the hold just isn't solid enough to insure all the round are right on. LE has a different set of conditions as a rule but not always. LE has the freedom of choice in some sectors to use different bullets. There is NO comparison between the hit from a Match King (Not to mention a FMJ)and a  A-max .308, not to mention conventional spire bullets or hollow points. A .223 hollow point tends to blow up on bone even at close range. A .308 tends to blow the bone up and pentrate beyond doing heavier damage instead of large cavern type holes.

The larger diameter and heavier bullet is much better in the kill department. Even when Kevlar is involved the .308 is much more effective.  YOU don't have to take my word for it but you'll find it's true as death itself.

The .223 is even light in the pants for coyote hunting fachisake. A coyote is tougher than a human but .223 still not adequate for killing on the spot except with vital area shots. The preservation of the fur is the best advantage of the .223. The .223 might be enough if proper bullets were used but they aren't so it's too damn light in the pants.  Coyotes don't shoot back but if they did nobody would be using .223 on them either.

The .223 was adapted mainly as a replacement for the piss ant .30 carbine that everybody loved but was inadequate when compared with the .30-06 rounds. The Thompson .45 also entered into the picture as a effective close range weapon but heavy ammo and heavy weapon per recoil factor left WWII vets wanting something with lighter weight in AMMO (per round). The Grease gun was a partial answer being cheap to produce and just about as effective with less leverage against the shooter but still required heavy rounds with rainbow trajectory. The tougher larger rifle (M1) wasn't missed because nobody knew the shortcomings of lighter weapons except for the M1 carbine.   The .223 Armalite happened to come along and somebody at Mittel Corp thought it would fill the bill. Not unlike the 1911 .45 Colt, it was a series of evolutionary changes that brought about a good weapon and a lot of cousins that eventually worked into something usable. When enhanced by C-cogs Aimpoints etc. it is quite effective today and benefits of lighter ammo etc can;t be discounted but will never be the "killing round" that the .308 is.  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 13:28:37 (ZULU)


Matthew, get a .243 (6mm). Beats the hell out of a knife.

Gavin; yes it can be. It's a reloaders dream but it's a safety problem for manufacturers. So we had to have the .260 Remington and that's a good thing Martha!

Dean; You are quite correct about the crown's. Here's what I do. If I suspect the crown is rotten I run a dremmel in the barrel about 32nd to 16 inch .. with a cone shaped tool at high speed so that's it smooth. Shoot the gun. If the accuracy gets better you may or may not want to buy the tool and proceed. I did this to a Remington 700 VSSF .223 and it shot one hole after that so I left it along. Even if it  doesn't improve...So far you haven't lost a damn thing cause it will almost always beat a factory crown or equal it.

The 11 degree or whatever you choose will always look better but it's probably debatable as to whether there is any real difference as to degree used. JR tell us about them Screws agin!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 13:40:23 (ZULU)


Why are all the paper punchers winning with .223?  LACK OF RECOIL!  The recovery time is much less, leaving more time to concentrate on fundamentals.  Also, the reduced recoil reduces shot dispersion due to slight changes in position, sling tension, thinking about Mary Jane Rottencrotch, etc.

Think Gooch has a point about commonality of training & maintenance.  Also ammo availability.  Do think the heavier thump on the receiving end is worth using 7.62.  Gooch, mail coming, no virus.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 14:39:32 (ZULU)



 Thanks Mike/Dan....The order for a couple is in the box tomorrow....

       .......Oh yea and the reason they adopted the .223 was so the women could shoot an carry lots of ammo for the boys!!! ;))......

Mark Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 14:45:53 (ZULU)


Trained shooters:  6.5mm or better.  American soldiers as currently trained:  .223.

Training a reasonably motivated, coordinated kid to shoot an AR tolerably well is about as hard as teaching him to type 30 wpm.  Ask Clint Smith, John Farnham or Gunsite's staff.  Foxhole prone on pop-ups at fixed distances isn't the answer.

Matthew:  Bill has seen a lot of deer shot.  More than me probably.  On the deer we have around here, the 6mms fail too often.  I'd go 6.5 or better.  Don't use the light bullets.

That's just what I've seen.

CDC Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 14:48:31 (ZULU)


Mr. Bill,

I think you are spot on.

There's 2 things wrong with the 5.56 on the battlefield.

(Just an opinion).

One, the M4, is way too short in the barrel area, it's an entry weapon.( go to an 18" tube, or heavier boolets, or both).

Two, and more importantly, IS bullet selection.

Correct Two, for M4's/ 16's full size, and a lot of these prob's will go away.

FWIW

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 14:51:46 (ZULU)


CDC.  We dont have to ask any of the civilian schools on how easy it is to train a kid on an AR.  Right now there are about 1500 of them on ranges at Parris Island, Edson and Quantico getting the best fundamental rifle marksmanship classes in the world.  The Army's problem is that there isnt corporate knowledge in the Drill Sgts to teach it right.  At Marine boot camp the recruit is trained by MOS qualified Range Officers and coaches who have a primary duty, day to day, of teaching marksmanship.  The Range Officers in charge of said training are Warrant Officers who are former competitive shooters, snipers, etc who do this for a living.

I think the Army program is broke and hopefully one of our star members on here will soon be in a position to help unbreak it.  I would like to see us:

(1)  Go to a DOD wide rifle marksmanship program, jointly developed between the Army and Marines.  Both have similar programs on paper but execution of the program in the Army leaves a lot to be desired.

(2)  Keep the M16/M4 but upgrade to a better round such as the 6.5.

You cant make everyone happy.  I've heard of units wanting the M4 for its manuverability in and out of APC's then the next second they arent happy with the lethality of it.

Okay how about a AR chambered for 7.62x39?

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 15:45:17 (ZULU)



Gooch:  You'd know.  I've never taken Marine marksmanship training, but I'm looking forward to administering a marksmanship test to a young man I know who has.  I do know that, if a kid can't shoot when he enters the Army, he's unlikely to be able to when he leaves.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 16:11:04 (ZULU)


Sub-Minute Stocks......

Haven't heard about these in awhile. Anyone using them? http://sub-minute.com/

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 17:17:48 (ZULU)


Re: sub minute solutions.  FN makes them an option on their SPR.

They are made by McMillan.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 17:31:17 (ZULU)


Dan; you are right about the .243. It was strickly from his shoulder conditions that I sent him there and 500 yards is iffy on Mule deer but it would probably take out a small deer OK. I shot a big whitetail once (100yds) (100 grain spire) and he took off like he was gut shot.  He went another 200 yards stopped and looked back and I shot him again . He left again and went into deep cover. I almost shot another buck that spooked thinking it was him again only to discover him dead a minute later. The first round got both lungs and the next blew his heart up. He didn't go down soon enough for me. But either way he was dead venison. I'm not sure whether or not 6.5 ammo would be obtainable in the outback though.

Gooch;" Okay how about a AR chambered for 7.62x39?".    

I have a friend who was treating wounded in Australia during the Vietnam party. He said he hated to treat the .223 because of the flesh wrecked by the velocity. But he doesn't seem to know which caliber accounted for the most deaths.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 17:36:38 (ZULU)


Alright, back in a good mood.  Did some NOE with the troops in UH-60's, humped about a little, ran some patrols, got the Marines in the field for some training and even found time for 4-5 hrs of catnapping since Friday morning.  Get back, clean rifles, clean radios, turn it all in and call beer-30 with no pogue BS.  This awesome shit is why men join the Corps!

DMR, yeah, everybody loves it now, cause it's brand stinking new.  The USMC has a fucking HORRIBLE record of replacing things when they break and keeping up with the disposable parts.  See what happens in two to three years.  I was talking about this with my team leaders on the drive back from the training area this morning.  This applies ACROSS THE BOARD.  We used to have a great rope locker here at the unit: all gone.  We used to have an awesome pubs library: all gone.  We used to have a bunch of good gear.  But it wears out or breaks and is never replaced.  The USMC doesn't seem to recognize that.  Guns wear out too, and we don't account for it.  If these guys planned maintainence better, it wouldn't be a problem.

The 2112's are great guys, I'm sure.  But they are over commiting like a MF.  The Force community says that can't minatain the 1911 MEU(SOC) pistol, I know they are doing a shitty job maintaining the M40A1 in a timely fashion, and the DMR is going to break the bank in one year or so when they all come in for the annual inspections.  Plus they have to do the rifle team guns?  Who the Hell are they kidding?  It's going to be a Charlie Foxtrot with units waiting for guns to come back from 3rd echelon.  I bet money on it!  You want to call me, we'll agree on a 3rd party to hold the money.  $20, and the loser buys beers for the winner.

As Sinister Dave mentioned on another board, the best bullet in the world means nothing if you don't hit anything with it.  In real life you don't fire very many well aimed single shots with your combat rifle.  You fire a pair or trio at the target and increase the chances that one or more hit something important, and you may also be engaging multiple targets too.  Ammo is there to be used on targets, which means it gets used, which means you need to haul more.  Believe you me, I hauled 300rds of 5.56 on my LBV this past two days, plus radios plus all the rest, and it'll kick your ass.  I handed off my LBV to some kid and he about shit himself at the weight.  Carry the same amount of 7.62 and you'll really be hurting.  We've been over this before.  Yeah, this 6.8 thing will be great if it gets here, but that's mainly because it doesn't increase weight that much for the increase in effectiveness it offers.

The reports about double tap failures turning into Mozambique drills in A-stan by Marines were from the Force Recon community.  E-mail me and I'll give you the entire AAR.        

The USMC has very good fundamental marksmanship training.  We're hurting in applying that to the real world and killing people.  We NEED to stress that the object of all this marksmanship training is killing the enemy.  No candy coated BS.  We kill people.  We need more quick kill stuff, more field firing, more CQB, more focus on the final product.  We stress what the boss looks at.  Well, in the USMC, the boss looks at the qual scores, so the KD range gets high priority.  HOWEVER, when you test Lcpl Schmuckatellie on hitting UKD targets in short time frames, he falls on his face because he has never done it before.  The time to learn about hitting real moving people targets is not in combat!  We need more stress on this.  The USMC is working on it, the new ranges in Sandy Run at CLNC are a step, as is FATS type training, but it needs to be followed through and applied at the team/squad and platoon levels.  We need more ammo, no other alternative.  Well, dying in place in some 3rd world shithole is the other choice, but I don't see that as a viable option.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 17:47:24 (ZULU)


Lito, you have mail, no attachements.

On accuracy, my first tests were easily under .75 at 100, with a non-optimal load.  Better loads [faster] are running into around 7/8" at 200.  They are probably better than that, the weak link would be my shooting.

I shot my standard 175 smk load at 200 with about the same results.  Both of these were out of an SCLE rifle.

What I'm curious about is how they will group at range.  Hopefully not like a shotgun pattern, ack.  But wouldn't be the first weather report I've fired.

I'll keep everyone updated.  The recoil is very minimal at 2950, but by the "bark" you can sure tell that something is going on, ha.

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 18:40:27 (ZULU)



Gooch regarding training etc..

Do you think the decline of shooting sports in general and the "weakening" of the CMP might of had an effect on the shooting abilities and skill of civilians entering the military or has there always been large number of people who dont know the difference between a muzzle or bolt?

Also if the CMP were still under the direct control of the US Army do you think it would be an effective pre-military training tool as intended at creation?

Dean Miller Email this member See this member's profile
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 19:37:56 (ZULU)


Jaeger;

  I'm rebuilding a 400 right now. Of course using several 351C performance parts. I had the heads done recently and the teenage fella working at the machine shop said "those ain't 400 heads", I said they're Ford 400.

  I need to hurry up and finish it. It's draining my gun fund.

Spotting Scope;

  I just got a Burris 20X60-80 scope. It seems pretty good for the money. I like the light weight of it.

    LATER

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 19:46:40 (ZULU)


'yote bait,

Nothings too small or too large for 'yotes..whatever works..if they had the choice, we'd be on the losin end, ha...and 6mm is NOT too small for whitetail(not even for the lazy mulie)....  

and youse dremel crown artiste youse, ha...I'm not sure I catch your 'screw' reference, we talkin' bout lappin the crowns in?  Hell yeah, if you have a lathe..

I like the 11 degree crown, it is purty...but more accurate?  nah...My favorite crown is the recessed/11 degree, it's nifty and sharp..cut the edge of the muzzle square whatever trips your trigger, then recess back whatever you like, then cut the 11 degree..I can't give you any definite numbers because I don't look at the dials when I cut my crowns!!  ha..  when I started cutting these crowns it was like an etch a sketch, but I've always liked that look..

what a crown does is protect the end of the rifling, that's it...flat, recessed, 11 degree, 45 degree(well, hah, you don't want a cone), but regardless, accuracy is due to the rifling breaking from the muzzle consistently around the groove circle..Just make sure you KNOW what you are looking for when you crown your own..

what else...

'Lito,

you old faaahrt...probably melt if ya got wet eh?  hah..

Gooch,

devil dog, leddem have it!!  I see that sissy that caught our Embassy in Kenya off guard is supposedly on the prowl again..Perhaps that riffle we sent Quantico 3 years ago might get some exercise just yet...

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 21:24:55 (ZULU)


VARGET!  AGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!

   I am not quite sure what the fascination with Varget is!  Get over it!  It's not the do all, save all, shoot all powder.  What are you guys trying to do with this stuff anyway?  I shot the stuff for awhile and it sucked in the heat, was temperamental when really COLD, and was never much good for more that the high 2700's, on a good day.  Have any of you tried a .308 load workup with Vihtavuori N-550?  I have a load running very nicely and very accurately at 2836 fps and it isn't finicky.  Have all the usual components, Lapua brass, Federal GM210M primers, Sierra 175 MK, and 49.5 gr of powder.  Keep talking about that damn Varget powder and I'll have another run at CDC with "Density Stacking!"  Anyway, my opinion only on the Varget!  The .338 Lapua Mag is keeping me busy.  The damn thing eats GOBS of powder.  Loaded 250 rounds the other day and almost ate 3 lbs of the stuff, and Viht ain't cheap.  Wish the barrel had a tighter screw to it but will have to make due with the 250 Scenars, got them moving at 3075 fps and they are going where they are supposed to.  And I was informed by U.S Optics that they sent me the 'WRONG' screws for the scope mount because I am supposed to drill and tap my new receiver for their screws.  Riiiiiight!  Now why didn't I think of that.......      

Scott Barnett Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 21:24:56 (ZULU)



how about the 7m 08? i used a .308 for a while as a pig gun but its long gone... does anyone know the accumarks performance compared to the 700s of the same standard? will be getting the rifle next week

and oh the choices, its driving me nuts, the local shop has a custom guy there and hes on about loading my own ammo but i still want to go factory, not enough experence for that.

Matt

Matthew Email this member See this member's profile
kiwi land - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 22:13:58 (ZULU)


Brogers:

My shoulder should heal at some stage but its to slow for me and i need to get out there into the bush , go a little nuts in the city,

like i said i was thinking about the 7m 08 but ive been told that the .260 rem is a good bet? and is there a cal close to that that the accumark is chambered in? ive looked but not to sure about it.

I fired a 300 mag and it almost killed me  but i recon anything under that will be ok.. ish ..smiling.

cheers

Matthew Email this member See this member's profile
kiwi land - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 22:44:20 (ZULU)


Matt,

Hey mate, I don't think the accumark is going to get you the relief of recoil as you would hope!!  it's chamberred for Weatherby Magnum rounds, which are much beeeger than most mags..ha..plus in light rifles!  ooh, the smackdown..I've fired the 257 wby mag, and even that is fast on the scope to eyeball....If you shoot the accumark, look for 'smiths to do some magnaport or muzzle break/compensator work, add some weight to the stock, ie mercury recoil reducer, and replace the recoil pad with a proper pachmayer or Uncle Mikes....Make sure it fits you, trust me, it will let you know in a hurry..

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 23:34:33 (ZULU)



Matthew......25-06?......close to the .257 Wby Mag......less recoil.....tighter group...cheaper factory ammo...Reliable whitetail killer in vitals.....

Mark Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 00:00:25 (ZULU)


Gooch,

""""How about a M16 chambered in 7.62x39"""""

They're out there, but I'm less than impressed with the accuracy.  Something in 6.8, 270, or some other varient may help some, but I don't see it ever replacing shot placment,, as you and everyone else has brought up.

I've seen two guys shot with 223's, 62gr Green tips.  Both were down for the count.  They lived thank God, since they were our guys, but they weren't gonna be fighting.  Of course,, this was range accidents,, so their frame of mind probably had a lot to do with it,, but layin' on the ground screaming in agonizing pain (and one was a pass through leg shot) isn't my idea of fun.  A 77grSMK at 2700fps should put any mortal down for the count.

I like what you and KenM are discussing about actually training soldiers to shoot, and shoot well.  AND having instructors who aren't just doing an extra duty or filling a slot because they're on profile.  

To add to the trianing issue,, when I went through basic, and through my entire time in, I NEVER shot paper for qualification.(excpet the paper part of M60 quals)  We always used "UKD" 25 to 300M pop up ranges with either E Type or head/shoulder silhouttes.  During basic we also shot pop ups movers from 50 to 300m.  THAT was good trianing.  

I think every soldier, regardless of whether their an infantryman or not, should have to qualify once a quarter, on pop up movers out to 300m, minimum 35 out of 50 to pass.  THEN, if they wanted to wear an expert badge, they should not only have to qual expert on movers (45 of 50) but they should also have to shoot a similar score on a KD range at E types(B-27's).  

Those that can clean the pop ups, and shoot 95% at the KD range should get a Master classicication.  That classification should also carry some weight, as well as a 95% or above PT score.  Give a guy an incentive to exceed, and many will take you up on it.  Those are the guys who should be carrying an type of special DM rifles.

I seriously doubt anything like this will ever happen,, but it would go a long way towards turing out better marksman IMHO.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 00:01:12 (ZULU)


Heck Chris, think of all the space for ranges you'd need.  All the brass need that space for golf courses, didn't you get the memo?  

Until we see an interest at the higher levels for real marksmanship skill of the practical sort, we're not going to see any improvements.  As I said, people get good at what the boss cares about, which is recent years has been writing articles in the military professional journels on EO, sexual harrassment prevention and how to make peace in 3rd world shitholes without killing too many of the enemy.  The articles that directly relate to killing the enemy are not to be seen.  You can get a good idea where an organization is heading from reading it's professional journels.  The stuff put out by the US military is mainly concerned with getting expensive new toys, not embarrassing the HQ types and writing better fitness reports to boost your career.  You never see articles about shooting, the rifle team gets 4th page stories and the thought of actually killing the enemy being discussed analytically and professionally causes causes staff officer types to wet themselves in terror.  That's the domain of the combat arms NCO corps, and we do not discuss it outside of our circles of friends and professional relations.  It's a bust on us, the NCO's, that we do not discuss these things professionally on a large scale.  The internet has been the best means of facilitating this, but there needs to be more.    

Until you get some guys with stars that shoot, you're not going to see major improvements.  Guys like myself can improve small units, but system wide change is a far away goal that needs political drive.  And the US ain't ready for me to go into politics;-)

Enough BS, who's going to Perry this year?  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 00:31:00 (ZULU)



KenM,

I agree, and I think WAY too damn much emphasis is placed on the OER and NCOER scores.  When I was gettin' my broke ass booted out on medical, I worked the PAC for some time, and saw all the pure, unaduterated BullShit that went into these.  Each one had to be better than the last, and it just keeps upping the anty until every swingin' dick in the Battalion is a goddamn super hero...  It's unbelievable.

Then, for the CO,, you have to add the company 4 mile Run times, Overall Company PT score and company average of marksmanship,, and what you end up with is a company of guys with shin splints and bad backs, that have to shoot next to some dickweed that can't qual with his AR to keep the scores up.  What do you mean he can't shoot for shit,, it says here he's an Expert marksman!!

So,, the quals all look great, and the PT scores are great, and all the NCO's and officers are obvioulsy performing great,,, there IS NO PROBLEM,,, right....  As far as the pentegon sees,, every company is at strength, and ready to deploy.

So,, to give these superheros a break, they spend what time they have out of the field mowing grass and pulling every damn shit ass duty the post has to offer because, after all, the infantry doesn't have a non field job,,, they must just sit around and BS/play video games all day.  Instead of going to the range, and going over needed skills, they buff floors and rake damn leaves.

When and if we ever get Guys like Sinister and JoeM up top,  making the decisions and spending the money,, I think we'll see a change for the better.  

You my friend,,, my bet is some dickhead PAC Pouge is reading this now,, and your next PCS will be to the Generals staff to be a lackie....  ;))

If that happens man,, you can always Branch transfer and come on over to the Amry!!!

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 00:50:08 (ZULU)


Ken, I'm going to Perry this year; hope to stretch it to the X course week, with a friend, then run back for Wimbledon / Leech.

On the 155 Scenar bit, Pablito had a copy of that picture tucked away.  It's posted in the article now, for your amusement.

http://new.leveron.com/Lapua155ScenarData.html

I am still wondering what the performance of that bullet would look like, at varying impact velocities, into gelatin.  Or terrorists, if they'd turn our guys a bit further loose . . .

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 00:56:57 (ZULU)


Ref: ASC#2

Andy and I just got back.  We had a ball!  Yes it was wet....so what?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 00:58:03 (ZULU)


308 vs 223

Went shooting this morning with Marty and Charlie (trigger)  Anyway we were getting ready for Sniper Quest and checking dope to a batch of ammo we loaded.   I recently got a LaRue? target and we were putting it out at different known distances to check out the rifles/Ammo/Data.  I brought along a recently built SPR  (an exact copy of Uncle Sams, Mk 12 Mod 1 18" super rifle) after we shot the 308's on each target I would shoot the 223.  It went quite well to about 700 yards.  Where the wind started pushing the little 77 gr bullet all over.  And when a hit was made it only knocked the steel down about 50 percentof the time.     At 800 only 2 hits were made and neither knocked the steel target down.   On the other hand the 308's continued to hit all the way to 1000 and always knocked the steel down.  

This would be why the DMR, AR-10, M11 Mod 0, M-14 are finding there way back on the battlefield.   Look at the last 15 years of conflict. Deserts offer lots of very long shot potential.    The 223 just does not cut it past 600 yards.   Why argue it all of you here know this is true.    600 yards and in, Im with Gooch. I will take an M-16 variant any day.  

On another note,   Since we are talking about the 155 lapua again.  Have been shooting a bunch of these latley.  

Catshooter, listen to this  Ive been shooting them with a  1-13 twist barrel. Better yet it is 21" long.   Loads have been at 2850 FPS and are tracking a 300 Win Mag cam on the Mark 4 M3 all the way to 1000.  And staying in the 1/2 MOA arena all the way out.  Hummmm?  

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision Email this member See this member's profile
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 01:36:47 (ZULU)


George, out to about 700yds is all that anyone is asking of the DM rifle in infantry units.  The spec ops guys will be taken care of, I'm sure, but I'm talking line infantry units here.  Anything longer than that is probably better engaged with supporting arms or your Bn snipers anyways.  Is it worth introducing M118LR into the platoon ammo loadout?  Ammo that the Bn snipers don't get enough of as it is?  M80 pull-down won't cut it at 700yds+ so M118LR is the only option in 7.62x51 at present.  

You guys have sold me on trying these 155 Scenars.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 02:03:51 (ZULU)


See this is where the realities of the infantry comes in.

A Designated marksman will be a member of a rifle squad.  He will not have a partner to spot for him, he will probably work closely with his squad leader/platoon sgt/leader.  He will probably never leave his squad to do his work.  He will be the platoon level sharpshooter who the platoon can use to take out a threat to the unit.  He will not deploy independant of the unit.

For example...  Platoon is attacking an objective.  They are taking machinegun fire from 300m out.  Riflemen with naked eye cant locate/engage him.  Plt Leader sounds off, "DM UP!"  Lcpl Smuckatelly toddles over, flops down, looks through his scope and sees the muzzle blast and suppreses it.  Back to humping a ruck for Lcpl Smuckatelly.  I hate to invoke Hollywierd but if you remember "Saving Private Ryan"  the sniper in that film was more of a "DM" than a sniper.

DM's have existed for a long time.  Many guys used to have Colt 4x scopes for thier M16's.

Out hyar.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 02:24:41 (ZULU)


Howdy,

I need some help!!  This is the second time I was out at the range, and found that my reloads were shooting a strange pattern.  My rifle was stringing rounds in a left/downward angle.  I had a a 15 round string like this.  I don't think that it is my reloads because three different loads did the same thing.  Can some one HELP PLEASE!!

'lito, CDC, JR, and others

I know that this is a rookie question, but a guy asked me this at the range today.  

If you have a standard weight barrel that is totally releaved, would it be any less accurate than a heavy barreled rifle that is also releaved?  Since yes, there would be more barrel whip, but since there would be no deviation in the barrel whip, wouldn't the bullet release be the same?  

Thanks for the time guys,

Mayhem

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 02:26:34 (ZULU)



John L...

I'm under the spell of 14 aspirins, 5 advil, and 6 of someting else, and had dinner through a straw :((

But anyway... through a 24" 12"twist Schneider, they shot poor (1.4) at 2700.  As loads/velocity increased, the groups got smaller and by the time I hit 2850, they were looking pretty promising.  At 2900 (46.5-Var) they were very good, and at 2905 (47-Var) they punched one leettle hole about <0.3" ctc.

At 47gr there were no pressure signs at all.  Next week, I'll run another string at 47, 47.5, and 48 Varget, and I'll also try them in a 10" twist barrel.

At 48gr, Varget is pretty much compressed even when dribbled through a tube, and I'm looking at going to something else.  I sure wish that someone sold "TAc" around here.

I did try a few loaded with Benchmark, but it is way too fast (I figured that, but need to try :((

IMNSHO, these puppies need to be driven HARD in a 12" or slower twist barrel, as they are very long (longer than a 175SMK).

-

George...

>" Loads have been at 2850 FPS and are tracking a 300 Win Mag cam on the Mark 4 M3 all the way to 1000."<

Good... I told you they would :))

If they are good in the 10" barrel, I will change over to the 300WM cam also, and leave the 175SMK's on the shelf.

-

Groggy as hell (but dry ;)... off to bed at 9:30 PM.

:(((

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 02:42:52 (ZULU)


OH good grief JR the barrel maker! Cones are nice and smooth you don't do a cone anyway you you you! HE's pickin on me again!

Most of these cone tools do cut about a 30 degree angle by the way. It's only about a 64th or so long so. Barrel makers are wierdos! And they have to have a lathe! What's that? :)

Lito' what's a matter wid you ole man? You coulda been crawlin around wid that Ranger feller! HE's too tough for me too. But whats with the advil?

mAYHEM that's a good question and I don't know if it will ever be settled for sure. As a rule stiffer is better if it's barrels but it ain't always.  Given equal manufacturering and proper bedding the only real difference is how it heats up.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 03:15:11 (ZULU)


'yote Bate...

I just came down to get the guns out of the truck and shut the place down.  Man... I gots a tooth ache that will beat them all.  It started a little this morning, but by afternoon, it was hard to drive back to the house.  I had to stop every 20 minutes and hold my head down to lessen the pain.

When I got home, I just left everything in the truck and hit the pills.  Gobbled them like candy at around 4, and they are just kickin' in now (at 10 PM :((

-

Off the bed (again).

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 03:48:43 (ZULU)


Mayhem:  I don't know if light barrels are less accurate than heavier.  There's the resonant frequency and heat questions, plus there's usable accuracy.  In more stable positions, lighter barrels are harder to hold still.  The barrel may be as accurate, but the shooter may not be.  I take heavy barrels to the range and take light ones up the mountain.  Ask JR.  He knows about a thousand times as much about barrels as I do.

Matthew:  The .260 is a fine choice.  

Gooch:  I like your earlier idea of giving all the grunts ACOGs or Elcans and teaching them all to shoot.  Make all of them DMs.  But it won't happen.  The brass doesn't know that grunts can't shoot.  And, God love every one of 'em, 95% can't hit a bull in the ass with a bucket.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 04:32:04 (ZULU)


Mayham, were those 15 cold or hot shots??

(I do not want to be stating the obvious but all barrels walk a

different walk)

Scott

Scott S Email this member See this member's profile
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 05:26:36 (ZULU)



Hey guys thanks for the info.

Those shots were all hot.  theye were in a 1" group, but I'm worried about the stringing.  

Someone said to me that it might be a bedding problem, because of the stringing, and the fact that when the firing pin falls, the bolt handle jumps about 1/4 of an inch.

Again any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mayhem

Oh yeah, what is the difference in velocity btw 6.5-06 and 6.5-284??

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 05:40:29 (ZULU)


thanks for the info guys, i think i will go for the .260, went down the local hunting shop to get a close look at the 7mm 08 and the .260

intresting for me .. so great now i have one thing out of the way now its just the rifle,??????????????

remington sounds like the go but which one? floating barrrel? and what of the twist rate? etc etc, its not such an easy task to chose the brand when ive had little experence with it.

cheers.

Matthew Email this member See this member's profile
kiwi land - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 07:30:23 (ZULU)



Matthew,

For a factory gun in .260 Rem, I think the Remington 700 LSS (Laminated Stock Stainless) Mountain Rifle might be a good starting point.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700mtnls.htm

Federal seems to make two different 140 grain loadings now, one is a Sierra GameKing Boat Tail Soft Point, the other is a Trophy Bonded Bearclaw.  They list data table for both to 500 yards, at

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammocat20.asp?act=choose&firearm=2&s1=1

[pick 'centerfire rifle' then '.260 Rem' for the caliber, the find ammunition]

Personally, I like the .260 quite a bit.  Good luck in your hunt!

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 07:45:57 (ZULU)


Thank you John, i will look at that this week , will let you know how it all goes .. appreciate the help..

cheers mate.

Matthew k

Matthew Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 08:04:35 (ZULU)


Well I just got home from my vacation to DC and hope I didn't miss anything really good or juicy.  Thanks for all the ideas on stuff to see and do.  I got around to a lot of it but not all.  It was well worth the trip.

Calvin-Sorry I didn't get your e-mail until I was back.  I would have loved to meet up with you for a brew or few.  I did get to Gettysberg and the Lancsater area for a couple days and loved it.  Keep in touch.

Lito and forgetting stuff-I suffer from CRS disease (Cant Remember Shit) so bad I have to make check box lists to make sure I take eveything I need to Hi-power shoots, camping, work, bed you know....

Jody- Hmmm Cleveland Country huh?   I might have a little 68 Cougar with "slightly improved" BOSS 351C I'm in the process of pro streeting.  Cubic $$$$$$ for sure.      

It's good to be back,

Joe S.

Joe S. Email this member See this member's profile
Dago, Ca, US of A - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 10:06:00 (ZULU)


Mayhem,

I'd look for the obvious.  Rubs on the bolt handle and the stock inlet where they may be touching under recoil.  Shiney spots in the action screw holes, where they may be touching under recoil.  A full 2 business ard free flot to either the recoil lug or the barrel pad.  Proper torque on the action screws, and if it's a winchester, NO torque on the center screw.

It sounds to me like it's stringing as it heats, which to me would imply it's touching something, somewhere, that's forcing the action/barrel out of place.

When it cools, are your first 5 shots centered up, or do they start stringing immediatly?  Does your CBS change POI /POA each time out?

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 12:18:07 (ZULU)



Joe: I had CRS long before I became a crotchety old fart. I save my lists in a PDA, so I don't have to start anew every time. I can just pull up the old list, edit it, and save it as a different list. I have trip lists going back years of what I carried on each trip. When it comes time to pack, everything gets laid out on the floor where it's visible, and checked off the list. Packing occurs only when everything on the list is present. That has saved me endless grief. I wish I had known to do that when I was 18. "Too soon old, too late smart."

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 13:10:14 (ZULU)


Bill wrote: "As a rule stiffer is better"

Yep.  That's MY motto ... lol

KEN M: I spoke with G. Roberts for a minute the other day. I'm interested in any info you guys got, especially on the TAP stuff. Email, snail mail, whatever p.o.c. you need, I'd like to see what you guys got going on the glass, etc.

We're switching from the SMK to TAP. Probably go with the 168 for open air, paired with the 165 Fed Tact. for barrier work. Trying to K.I.S.S. as much as possible between the two rounds.

Wuzup with the 155s? Roberts seemed to like 'em.

Holler at me.  

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 13:38:38 (ZULU)


Mayhem:  Sorry about my lame response to your last post.  I skipped step 1:  Read the question.

Update on my six year old's musical journey:  He's the one who loves Hank Williams.  Alan sent him a Buck Owens CD, and my son played it a hundred times.  He then found a John Lee Hooker CD and became enraptured with "Boogie Chillen."  He took right to the blues, so we got him a B.B.King CD.  He agreed that it is good stuff, but likes Stevie Ray Vaughn best of all.  He plays "I won't give up on love" over and over.

Six years old.

You know, you have them, but they're they're their own people.

Speaking of Alan:  Where did he go?

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:03:27 (ZULU)


*******VIRUS ALERT*********

Gents,

Just updated my virus protection this morning and THEN checked my Email.

Got hit with one (virus protection caught it) that had only been discovered yesterday.

For info, go to:

http://vil.nai.com/vil/content/v_100307.htm

The powers that be need to catch a few of these guys and hang them, on the national evening news.

Keep your virus protection updated!

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:20:27 (ZULU)


Tooth is betterer, life is good!!

Joe S...

>"Lito and forgetting stuff-I suffer from CRS disease (Cant Remember Shit) so bad I have to make check box lists to make sure I take eveything I need to Hi-power shoots, camping, work, bed you know...."<

I used to have CRS, but it has progressed to the later stages of C.R.A.F.T... (Can't Remember A F**kin' Thing).  I useta make lists, but now I forget where I put them.  Now I just leave all my kit in the Jungle Truck... chrono, loading press, scales, spotting scope, shooting bags, plus a full tool kit, and cleaning equipment... all year around... or I would never be able to go to the range ;))

-

Cowpie...

I tried to send you an e-mail, but it no workie!  Can I talk you out of those very long 168 A-Maxs... I n-e-e-d them!

Drop me an e-mail.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:26:40 (ZULU)


Mat;

The 7mm-08 is fairly hard kicking unless you shoot light weight bullets such as the 120.

I had a .260 in Model 7. It was not a light kicker either. However a light bullet might help in that one too.

Someone suggested the 25-06. Not bad choice and a very good deer cartridge with a wide range of bullet weight selection.

257 Weatherby not light!

240 Weatherby not bad!

IF the shoulder is expected to recover the 25-06 ammo is available over there, it would be a good choice but the same thing applies to the .260.

LIto' I hate a tooth ache worse than anything! They kill me.

Pull the sucker and be done with it.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:38:01 (ZULU)


'yote Bate...

>"Lito' I hate a tooth ache worse than anything! They kill me. Pull the sucker and be done with it."<

There's nobody to slam the door ;)

I think I'll try drowning the sucka in Dark Rum ;)))

It may not solve the long term problem, but it'll feel good trying ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:45:30 (ZULU)


Hi Matthew, if you have already had 2 messages from me I appologise for my lame typing that caused me to send them premature.  I thought I would also post on the Roster just incase the email thingy still ain't working.  Anyway, I saw your question and thought I would chip in.  I am a Forestry Wildlife Ranger in the UK whose main job is deer control so my experience is pretty wide.  On calibre, I would say be sure you have enough gun.  I saw someone recommended 243, in my opinion that calibre is marginal at best for the bigger species, and you have some B-I-G species down there.  I know blokes that do use 243, BUT their ranges are restricted to under 200yds and they all agree that shot placement is vital.  243 doesn't give much margin for error and shooting at the ranges you are talking about I would suggest this needs to be considered.  Someone also mentioned the 6.5mm.  Well, again I know some people that use this calibre (in the 6.5x55 variety)  on big reds and sika stags.  All praise the calibre very highly on it's performance and if I am correct, it is widly used in Scandanavia for elk (moose), so there is no doubting it's deer killing abilities.  The 6.5 is also a proven long range target round.  I'm not familiar with the 260 and don't know anyone using one over here, so can't comment.

As far as rifles are concerned, I cannot speak about the Weatherby as I have never used one, nor do I know anyone else that has one.  Remington, well I have one with which I am very pleased, BUT I have had to spend a great deal of time and money to get it that way.  From my own and the experiences of others on the DR I would say buying a Remington off the shelf is a bit of a gamble.  My own would shoot 3" groups at 100yds with factory ammo before I had it worked on, which is crap.  I have also heard many cases where Remingtons have left the factory sub-standard.  If you are wanting to spend the time and money then go ahead with the Rem, you may even get a good one of the shelf.  If you are wanting a rifle to go, at sensible money I would recommend either the Sakos or Tikkas.  The Forestry Commission here buys them and they are very accurate right out of the box with quality factory ammo, and they have a very good trigger that needs only an allen key to adjust.  If you have one with the varmint contour barrel the 6.5x55 would be a very, very gentle calibre to shoot.  Checkout their website for the different configurations.

I hope this helps.

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:49:23 (ZULU)



DAN: SRV - Texas boy.

Just one more wonderful thing to come out of this great state.

You just can't go wrong with Stevie Ray. Got everything he ever did.

Buy that kid a copy of Stevie Ray Vaughn and Double Trouble, live from Austin Texas.

He'll love it.  www.amazon.com  $ 14.98 VHS

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:50:04 (ZULU)



LITO: Got an uncle. Old school. DEEP East Texan.

Had a bad tooth pulled. Told the dentist he wanted to keep it.

When he got home he put it in a jar full of syrup and told it "Now hurt you SOB, hurt!"

Don't know what that accomplished exactly, other than making him feel better, which I guess was the point.

Nothing hurts like a toothache ... 'cept maybe a really bad burn or a divorce w/ kids.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 15:55:47 (ZULU)


ASC2,

John, Rod, Brock, Matt, and the rest...Thanks for a great, although a little damp, weekend. Your time and effort was visible and appreciated. What a great shoot. That truly is beautiful country. It was a pleasure to meet all you guys for the first time and good to see everyone from SMTC again. Those who did not make it missed a great opprotunity. By the way, the shirts are awesome, thanks again Danny.

Back to the shiiter,

John  

Acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 16:07:36 (ZULU)



First day back from the wet weekend at ASC#2... very good company, GREAT HOSTS (Rod, John, Brock, Matt) ..superb shooting environment. Even a little rain, fog, and wind to make the easy 800 yard shots a little challenging <grin>

The winnner, who shot #2 last year, did so with a .308.  It seems practice, shooter-spotter teamwork and solid shooting principals take the day!  Hmmmm. Last Year, the top shooter did the same thing.  Mark and Danny, thanks for the chance to learn by watching some damn fine shooters in action.

To everyone that opted to stay dry.....you missed out on a fantastic opportunity to train and learn in REAL conditions.

More later - gotta earn a buck.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 16:21:44 (ZULU)



Hello all from the soggy South.  I'm a longtime lurker and first-time poster.  The body of knowledge and degree of helpfulness on this website is amazing and not found anywhere else.  I followed the advice of many on this site and purchased a M70 Stealth.  Most accurate piece I have owned or shot.  After 5 sighters, 1st 3-shot group at 100 went 0.15 in. with Fed. GMM 168s.  Following groups were not quite so good but still around 0.5.  Hornady Custom 165 BTSP shot almost as well.  To say I'm pleased is an understatement.  Can't wait to see what it will do with handloads.  Thanks for the unsolicited advice guys.

This next topic is not sniper or tactical related, but hopefully someone can provide some guidance.  My father recently purchased a Safari grade M70 in 375 H&H, a longtime want of his to fill a gap in his collection.  I talked him into buying a set of Warne Maxima bases and 7.3 rings.  Rifle shot 4 inches low at 25 yds with Leupold 1.75X6 elevation maxed out high.  Returned Warnes and got Leupold 2-piece QD bases and matching rings (what he wanted to begin with).  Back to the range, same result, 4" low at 25yds.  Called Leupold, they said problem with rifle, not their bases.  Called Winchester, spoke with "rudest woman in Connecticut" (Dad's words), finally got a shop foreman on the phone, who said no way are the receiver bridges out of spec.  Back to Leupold, still waiting their reply.  His position, and I agree, is that Leupold is selling a product they advertise to fit this particular rifle, and it should be there responsibility to make this situation right.  He has been speaking/emailing with Garth Kendig at Leupold.  Anyone out there had any similar experiences with Winchester or Leupold?  We are certainly open to suggestions.  Thanks in advance.  

Jim Fudge Email this member See this member's profile
Woodstock, GA, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 17:08:42 (ZULU)


Jim Fudge...

This situation is very unusual.  It is typcal that there are some differences in both mounts and receiver dimentions, but your situation would require that there would be an out-of-alignment of some 40 to 50 thou, which is a lot.

Who is the lady at Winchester that you folks spoke to??

Also, have you tried reversing the rings... it might help.  You can also put a thin shim under the rear ring.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 18:04:09 (ZULU)



Mayhem

just another possible thought on your stringing. What was the wind doing? Could be a "weather report" group.

Jim Fudge, I seem to remember someone saying the heights on the receiver bridges of some rifle got changed somewhere along the way( quite a few years back). Can't remember if it was Winchester, Remmy or whoever but maybe someone else can jump in here.You  needed a different base  depending on the year of manufacture. Is this an OLD rifle or a new one? Maybe I imagined it...

Matthew, the .260's ballistics are practically identical to the 6.5x55 (swede) that Jon was talking about. If you stay away from light guns ( like the model 7 and mountain rifles in general) it should be a very soft shooting round but with plenty of clout at the sharp end. A heavy barrel may be tougher to carry around all day but will save your shoulder from a beating. He's also right about the Sako and Tikka's. I saw a guy take his brand new tikka master ( I think it's called a whitetail the other side of the pond)out of it's box, check the barrel was clear,load it and shoot the first three shots into an inch and a half at 100 yards WITH IRON SIGHTS. He has since said it shoots to about half an inch with factory ammo now that he has a scope on it.

Mark D Email this member See this member's profile
London, UK - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 18:10:40 (ZULU)


BKS: I saw the SRV concert/Austin City Limits on the tube, That was a good one.

Question: Any of you guys in the Eau Claire area. Are the turkeys still gobblin? I am heading up to sit with the Ticks hoping to see a big Tom this week.

Thanks,

JLU

Joe Udelhofen Email this member See this member's profile
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 18:18:20 (ZULU)


Electronic scales….I used a Pact electronic scale for several years.  Agree with most of what has already been said over the past couple of weeks regarding Pact.  Last week I purchased a new Lyman LE 1000 electronic scale.  There is a huge difference in the two scales.  If you are wanting a electronic scale I would recommend you check out the Lyman LE 1000.  Doesn’t require near the warm up time and if it starts to drift off calibration you can see the drift much easier than with the Pact.

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 18:54:04 (ZULU)


Lito - the leupold tech says their general rule of thumb is 0.001" of shim equals 1" at 100yds, but varies somewhat with ring spacing, and that our situation would require shimming in the neighborhood of 0.030!  To me, that much shim would likely kink the scope tube on a 2-piece base setup. Haven't tried switching rings, I thought the front and rear were identical on QRs, but it will be really easy to check that out. I don't know the name of the woman he spoke to at USRAC in Connecticut.

Anybody know a source of tapered shim stock so the front and rear bases can be shimmed an equal amount to avoid undue stress on scope tube that could be caused by shimming rear base only?  Only problem with this approach is that it may create a visible gap between the bases and receiver, which can catch dirt, debris, water, etc., and also negatively affect the esthetics of a truly classic rifle.

Another option is to abandon this mounting option and try using offset inserts in Burris Signature Z rings attached to Leupold cross slot bases.  I'm interested in what experiences rosterfarians have had with these Burris rings.

Mark D - The M70 was purchased new March 2003. The mount saga has been ongoing since then.

Patient and perservering...

Jim Fudge Email this member See this member's profile
Woodstock, GA, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 18:56:28 (ZULU)



Jim Fudge; I'm trying to remember but sometimes mount screw holes are the  same and seems like I ran into a Winchester once that had the front and rear mounts reversed. Maybe I dreamed that but anyway the thick one goes behind. Maybe it's Ruger I'm thinking about...

I have a New Winchester 2002 that has mount screws that are 45MOA off to the left. Just a case of poor quality control. You can check the Leupold by counting the turret clicks from top to bottom and setting it in the center.  It should be within 16MOA (4 squares)....

Thats with a Bushnell bore sighter. You could then inspect each direction and see if there's a problem with the scope.

It's probably the receiver if the mounts aren't reversed in spite of their arrogance. I'd damn sure doubt that Leupold is off.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 19:02:38 (ZULU)



Range Report: Sunday, while watching the talking head shows, I cut and sewed up a cheek pad from Cordura with half-inch closed-cell foam for the stock on my Model 70 HBV. Got my head up a bit higher, but the padding is just GREAT! It made a big difference in my ability to establish a hard hold when prone. I shot 11 rounds to clean the Sniper's Hide Tactical Match target at 100 prone off the bipod, although only two X's - clearly more work is required.

I also shot the Hathcock Match target at 300, and noticed that it's harder to hold well on that kind of silhouette target, which doesn't have the kind of high-contrast precise aiming point that I have been shooting at, which was basically a black one-MOA diamond with a white center on a white background. The learning continues...

There was a guy shooting a Thompson Contender next to me on the range, and it was LOUD. While I was packing up my gear, I asked him what it was chambered for, and it was a 7mm-08. What made it really loud was that the barrel was ported out to the sides, sort of like a built-in muzzle break. Never thought of that as a pistol round.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 19:30:37 (ZULU)


FudgeDude...

I have used the Burris "Signature Zee" rings on almost all of my rifles that use 1" rings, and I think it is the bestest solution... get the rings, and the additional "kit" of spacer shells..  The rings are tough (all steel), and they don't let the scope slip from recoil, even from magnums, and don't damage the scope with ring marks.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, The creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 19:32:24 (ZULU)



Ummmmm, this just got posted over at the AR15.com forums and interesting is one word for it.

50BMG AR15 monstrosity, NOT one of those single shot upper assemblies but a mega-monster semiauto 50BMG sibling. http://www.cobb50.com/index.htm

Link is clickable on my name as well.   Picture gallery is funny, check out the AR10 bolt/carrier next to the bolt that the 50 uses.   All I could think of is what the sound of the bolt must be like when the thing is chambering a round.   My AR10 makes this really pleasing and heavy sounding "kerchunk" sound when it chambers a round, much more pleasing than the sound that an AR15 makes chambering a round.    The thing on that site must sound downright howitzer like.   42 pounds, holy schnikies!   The AR50 like brake on it's muzzle looks downright tiny too.

Yotebait and Pat, thanks for the heads up on the Amaxes.   I kinda figured as much.

Now with everyone talking about these Lapua bullets I suppose I'm gonna need to try these things out as well.  Anyone got handy an online source for purchase?

I just got my promotion at work, looks like I'm gonna set aside a bit of money and then at the end of this summer I'm gonna buy myself somethin nice for my birthday.   Thinking Nightforce 5.5-22 and BadgerOrd bases/rings for the 300WinMag.

B. Douglas Email this member See this member's profile
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 19:39:46 (ZULU)


Lindy: Nothing takes the rams like a full length 708/308 in Unlimited International IHMSA. Smacks 'em down.

Used to have fun with 'em. Loud is right though.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 20:41:27 (ZULU)


Scott @ SniperCountry PX,

I wanted to let you know just how much I appreciate you and your service.  The AR upper you built for me is a screamer!  Without even “tinkering” with my handloads the rifle easily held .25” - .5” groups, and in my case I am convinced it exceeds my capabilities.

Aside from you building me a pure tack driver, it was your expertise and advice that in my opinion really made you “shine.”  You went the extra mile to say the least.  You answered questions and concerns I had without hesitation while at the same time teaching me a thing to two.        

It was a unique experience for me to deal with someone who really knew their “stuff”.  The loco-yoco gun shops can’t hold a candle to the kind of service you provide at SniperCountry Px.  It was a pleasure doing business with you, and I look forward to doing more business with you in the future.

I HIGHLY recommend SniperCountry Px to anyone looking for quality equipment at a fair price.  

Thank you again!

S. Fretz

Philadelphia suburbs  

steve Email this member See this member's profile
philadelphia, pa, usa - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 21:17:00 (ZULU)


Right, i want to get in on the Designated Marksman discussion. There is something fundamentaly wrong with issueing one bloke in a rifle squad with a different caliber than the rest of the squad, that will lead to fuck ups, ammo shortages and get people killed. We used to have one LSW( light support weapon, L86A1( probably A 4 by now) per section, it was supposed to be a squad aoutomatic weapon, but the LSW does not a machine gun make. It is the long barreled version of the Infamouse SA80, or L85A? it has a heavier and longer barrel, a bipod and a rear grip between the butt plate and the pistol grip. Ok the SA80 weapons system left a lot to be desired, but accurate it is, we tended to use the LSW version as a DM rifle, ie, it was given to the best shot and he underwent training with the snipers from heavey weapons/HQ or support company, and if he was lucky even got to do a unit sniper course. We could engage targets out to 800 meters and be pretty sure of first round hits(yes it took practice)on man sized targets. here is what i think should be standard issue to an infantry squad.

1 SAW ( minimi or whatever you guys call it, you call it the SAW right?)used linked of mag 5.56 ammo.

1 DMR, an M16 type rifle with a heavier barrel and bipod and an optical device, (1.5-6x42S&B PM1 would be good), a twist´rate that will allow use of heavyier bullets ( and issue the DM's with selected ammo loaded with heavier bullets to give better longer range terminal performance, but in an emergency the barrel should still bieng able to stabalise general issue 5.56 ammo).

every one else gets a standarg issue M16 Ar 15 or what ever you all want to call it, and it sports a x4 magnification SUSAT.

Leave the 308, the 338, and the 300wm to the snipers who are trained to use em to thier most effective.

That way when the shit hits the fan, and you run out of ammo in the middle of a fire fight, your pinned down and the squad leader is dead next to you, when you take his ammo (he don't need it no more)you know its gonna work in your damn rifle. Then using your superior marksmanship skills, you manage to shoot all the enemy before they kill the whole squad, you couldn't do that if you'd have been carrying a 308.

on another, but scimilar point, Quote from below

"When you look at the mission of an infantry DM an M16 DMR is better due to the tranferal of weapons handling skills from the Marine/Soldiers M16 training, maintainablility is better as the unit armourer could replace parts and not have to send the rifle to a 2112,"  

why the hell would a unit armourer have to send a rifle away to a precision weapons shop to get it fixed, unit armourers should be capable of repairing every type of small arm within his own unit(and then some, specialty and foriegn ones too) to Base Standards (read factory specifications, including all modification and miscellaneouse instructions).

Mathew, swap you a Roe deer hunt in Scotland for a deer hunt down in NZ !!!you'd do ok with a 6.5x55. if you want to shoot further than 300m then get a 25-06 or a 270win and get the sod a muzzle break if the recoíl is to much ( but in a rifle of a decent weight it shouldn't bother you),forget the 243, its for crows and fox and coyotees on a windy day. Weatherby Rifles, ive shot a few of the Accumarks, very nice, accurate, i always fancied one in 257 Weath Mag

Talking of deer hunting, any one fancy a weeks Roe Buck hunting in Scotland the last week of July? Wes, you ever get over here and we'll go hunting.

JR, yep lotsa Brits back, seen some in town living it up and annoying the local population, " work hard play hard lads, work hard play hard , and fuck the local pascifist bastards"

Jon B. wanted to call you tonight..

Marc, i forgot to call you about the order..

Right, i bloody dislocated my friggin left knee today, hurt like hell, but luckily it popped back in, the hospital said id streched some bits n pieces but done no permanent dammage., pfew !!

bed time for this tired Brit now. catch ya'll tommorow..

Peter von Lincoln, eh, von what?

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 21:20:35 (ZULU)



B. Douglas :

OK, that is one interesting 50 behemoth.  I'd encourage all who are interested in the .50, or preserving it, to head over to

http://www.fcsa.org/

and join up.  There's a lot of useful information there . . .

I'm getting my Lapua Scenar 155's from http://www.grafs.com/ as well as Lappy brass, heh.  Very nice .308 brass, it'll spoil ya.

And that is a nice B-day present.  Nothing like flying first class, heh.

Lindy, going to try those targets out too, next outing.  I'm always ready to learn more.

John L

John Leveron Email this member See this member's profile
"Let that boy Boogie Woogie", Missouri, U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 21:32:41 (ZULU)


Lito'.......

Glad your toofies more betterer,,,,(((;

But, get it fixsed, it ain't gonna leave ya alone....

Dark cometh, and that's when the SHTF wif toofies.

I gots several hundred 168 AMAX's....NIB.

You want em', lemme knows.

I got em' for $18.00 a c......

Hit me offline, whatever.

Two Shoes

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 21:47:03 (ZULU)



Ok Dudes,

The schedule of events and the team roster has been mailed out, and it is now posted on the BadLands website. Events are subject to change, and we have several events waiting on the side lines to throw at you, if we get a period of downtime. I look forward to meeting all the rosterians! Contestants will be advised of how each event will be ran, what type of targets will be engaged, etc., at the MANDATORY shooter's meeting on Friday, June 6.

Bobby Whittington Email this member See this member's profile
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 22:42:26 (ZULU)



Matthew....

Pick up a Rem Model Seven in .260 or 7mm-08. Have someone mount a KICK-EEZ sorbothane pad on it. You won't regret it. I have one in 7-08 and took a big ole doe (around 150#) at a ranged 265 yards. She crawled about 20 feet, no heart left. Was sighted in at 2 1/2" high at a hundred and I think I held right at the top of the vital. Was a little excited so that may not be exactly right.

Sain.....

Will trade you one kidney stone attach for 5 toofaches!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
Will the sun ever shine again in, NC, - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 23:00:51 (ZULU)


I STAND CORRECTED DUDE.

The wife has had 'em. Forgot. My bad.

Ouch.

brian k. ain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 23:06:02 (ZULU)


Finally time to post after ASC#2!

We got in last night about 2am and I was up at 8am on the back porch cleaning all the mud off my gear and then to the rifle for a good going over to make sure no water was lurking in any tight spots.

The weekend was wet but I wouldn't of missed it for the world and wasn't disappointed. It was good to see some old faces like Jim, Tony and Team Mussack as well as meet some new ones. The shots were challenging and real world especially with the rain and mud. I'd like to thank John, Rod, thier wives, and Brock and his friend for everything. I'll be back next year.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 19, 2003, at 23:18:36 (ZULU)


why the hell would a unit armourer have to send a rifle away to a precision weapons shop to get it fixed, unit armourers should be capable of repairing every type of small arm within his own unit(and then some, specialty and foriegn ones too) to Base Standards (read factory specifications, including all modification and miscellaneouse instructions).<<<<<<<

Nope, the USMC is not willing to spend the time and money to train a bunch(approx 4 per bn) of 4 yr contract armorers to 2112 standards.  IIRC, that's about 6 monthes of training just for the 2112 upgrade to the 2111 MOS.  The result of this policy is a giant bottleneck in production/repair of PWS weapons.  These include the DMR, the M40A1, M40A3, Barret M82A1, MEU(SOC) 1911, any crazy project stuff for WTBN or the SOTG's, and all the guns on the rifle/pistol teams.  You have a few 2112's at the Div level, but the PWS shop itself is in Q-town.  Really stupid IMO.  

The real solution to this to train more 2112's and perhaps certify civvie contractors as authorized repair facilities for the guns.  Another thing would be the establishment of "competitive repair", which means if 1stMARDIV's 2112's are overbooked on work, they can send guns to 2nd MARDIV, 4thMARDIV, WTBN etc without having to get a signed letter from God.  Shit, sometimes I think these guys are Union.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 23:24:32 (ZULU)


Ken: I'm with you. It seems to me that if civilian employees can do depot level IRAN on M1A Abrams tanks and 155 howitzers, at Marine Corps Logistic Bases, which they do, they could sure as heck do that to the proper standards for man-portable weapons. It's a dumb policy. Marine Corps leadership ought not to tolerate any BS that stands in the way of the guys at the sharp end getting the weapons they need when they need them. Anything less is a pure and simple leadership failure. It's hard to imagine that the Marine Corps is willing to be a world-class example of bad leadership - or is it?

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2003, at 23:49:55 (ZULU)


Howdy,

Well I took the Stealth apart today, and there didn't seem to be any shiney spots anywhere except on the bottom flat part of the recoil lug in the stock.  There didn't seem to be any major rubbing though.  

The weather shouldn't have had much effect, the first time the it was cold but there wasn't much wind at all.  Yesterday it was upper 90's, and a 7-10mph wind from 12-6.  

I'm also having alot of problems with my CBS.  It is 6-8" off of the rest of the group.  

I also have a problem with another .308.  I is my Dad's, it is a R.. Rug... well you know.  It is the VLE of the Law Enforcement (sp?) model.  It actually shot well for a while, but while hunting, he dropped it out of a 30' stand, and it bounced all the way down.  THe B&L scope was dinged badly, and it didn't track at all anymore, so we replaced it with a cheap tasco, and new bases and rings.  We took it to the range yesterday to, and couldn't get it to hold a 2" 5 shot group.  

I thought that it could be a bedding problem, especially since the laminate stock isn't bedded.  what else might be the problem?  Most of the damage seemed to be the the side of the butt, and a direct hit about 5" down from the action on the barrel.

Again I appreciate yall knowledge and willingness to share.

Mayhem

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 00:33:24 (ZULU)


Joe S.

  I know about Cougars and Clevelands. I got really close to buying a '67 XR7 in good shape(with original factory a/c) that had a '71 351C 4V (closed heads) and C6 trans. The guy who was selling it was letting his son drive it and his son wanted something more modern, then the son watched "Bullitt" and decided to keep it. I always SO CLOSE. At least he's not letting it rust down.

Pete L.

  I'd love to make a trip to Scotland but I don't think I can swing the vacation time from work, I've only got 16 hours left. Out of curiosity, what would be involved in the hunting trip? How long is the season open?

Matthew;

  I like Savage rifles, don't know if they are available there. They shoot well out of the box and cost a bit less than Remington and others, also come in several calibers. A muzzle break and nice recoil pad would help on any medium-up caliber rifle.

  I don't know much about Weatherby Accumarks, but I read in some info that the Vanguards are made by Howa in Japan for Weatherby, if that is a concern. I would imagine they are quality rifles.

Jim;

  If there is a good machine shop near by, they could take measurements of the receiver and scope bases and tell you which is outta whack.

  If you got the same result with different brands of bases, I'd blame the rifle.

  Let us know how things go. I have an interest in .375H&H.

     LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 02:31:58 (ZULU)


Thank you all for the advice, i think that im going for the 22" 700 lss mt rifle ,,, .260 (6.5mm) soft enough for me till i get better, now all i need is to find someone to carry the 50 to 70 kgs of meat out for me hehe oh well, will be getting it next month now as work is getting busy but will let you know how it goes,

thankyou all again

Matthew

Matthew Email this member See this member's profile
kiwi land - Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 02:52:29 (ZULU)


Chuck, No Go for the range tomarrow. No joy. Something came up. Wont be at work niether.

Hey, anyone know what happens when you load 30 grs of W-231 in a 308 case and top it with a SRA 168 MK? I seed it first hand, impressive. Actually I had my back turned when the shot was fired. But I turned around to ask my buddy, Are you ok? To which he replied, Owwwie, owwwwiee. HK 91 was involved. Mag well looked like a bugle. The case I couldnt get out of the chamber or the bolt open. Hated to break the news to him while he was standing there bleeding all over the ground that I didn't belive the magazine was even remotely salvagable. Hell even the spring was FUBAR. Judging from the hole in the arm. When the parts of the mag tried to leave in a hurry they ripped a gaping hole in his forearm... So just remember alway double check what powder you are using and keep only one can on top the reloading bench....

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 03:12:26 (ZULU)


Hey guys,

Anyone here ever do any business with armsandammo.com?  Their website says "Wholesale reloading supplies to the public".  I'm looking at ordering some stuff as their prices seem pretty darn good, but I thought I'd do some research first.

Thanks

Rich

Rich S. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 04:01:13 (ZULU)


Ken, Peter, Lindy....

Exactly....

The problem with the situation is that the PWS writes the rules regarding the items they produce.  Can you spell J-O-B S-E-C-U-R-I-T-Y?

I have felt for a LONG time that the USMC should purchase M24's along with the US Army.  Why do the Marines and Army have different sniper rifles???  I have seen M40A1's and M24's fired along side each other and the Marines wanted M24's by then end of the course.  Wow, they could actually take the actions out of the stock without suffering a Courts Martial!!!  The Army gives thier snipers spare parts to fix thier rifle's in the field!!!!  And OH MY GAWD!!!  THEY GIVE THEM A "TORQUE WRENCH"!!!!  Help me JEEZZUUSS!!

I guess them Army snipers are smarter than them Jarheads....

Why do the Marines build thier own MEUSOC .45's, DM's etc?  I'm telling ya its to save the PWS so they can build match guns for the teams.  WIthout the tactical weapons building HQMC would cut the PWS in half at least.  

Support for the users??  I called the "RTE" in 1997 to get some M40 torque settings for some USMC reserve guys attending the National Guard course I was teaching.  Their unit armorer refused to let them take the gun books with them (a violation of SOP to begin with) and the actions hadnt been taken out of the stocks for years.  You could see the rust coming up around the action so I wanted to tear them down, give em a good cleaning and  re torque them before the course started.  So like I said I called the RTE and talked to the Sniper Rifle Section NCOIC who I knew from when I worked there at the Sniper Instructor School.  He didnt have the settings, only the test shed had them, and they were off.  We then got into a discussion of why the Marines refused to use HS precision stocks.  After pissing up that rope I gave up and told the Marines they would have to go with thier rifles as they were.

I gave the class on the M24, showed the soldiers how to tear them apart, adjust the stock, trigger, parallax etc.  At the end of the class a Marine Sgt come up to me and asked why the Marines didnt use the M24.  Only reason I could think of was, "Because the RTE needs mission oriented work."  There arent too many of us who have taught/shot both the M24 and the M40 and I will tell you right now I would take an M24 over an M40 ANY day.  Oh yeah, the Marines couldnt adjust the parallax on the Unertls since the Objective lens lock rings were RUSTED in place and they didnt have the issue spanner wrench and dog tags only bent.

I'm sorry.  When life and death on the battlefield is an issue you can take rear echelon job security, the USMC rifle team etc and shove them up your ass.  Get the grunts the best, user maintainable gear available.  

Damn it!  ANother shitty mood.  WHere's my zoloft???

Out here...

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 05:34:20 (ZULU)


Harold Rudisell, shoot me a quick email, I see that we are paired up for the upcoming shoot.

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
CA - Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 07:46:11 (ZULU)


Boy, the network gods are not helping Ken out.  Grrr.

Sometimes you really have to resist asking for a golden BB for the net kids who control your business websites.

John L

John Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 21:01:08 (ZULU)


Update on Ramshot "Tac" powder :

For those that are interested in trying it out, I've talked w/ Ramshot, and have some good news.

Current distributors are listed on their website (click my name below, or http://www.ramshot.com/ )

They are looking to establish more dealers now.  That's good news for me :)  Ramshot will sell direct to FFL holders.

If you have a local dealer who is willing to help you out, you can get some powder at a pretty good deal, direct from Ramshot.  You will need to have them contact Brenda Kneeland @ Ramshot, contact info on their website.

I consider it a pretty competitive dealer start-up kit (Ramshot will  pay shipping & HazMat) - 16lbs of Ramshot (mix & match - your choice) for $225.

Hope this helps some of you hogs out.  Yes, I will be having some delivered to me, heh, to test out.

John L

John Email this member See this member's profile
Missouri, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 21:09:31 (ZULU)


Gooch,

I'm kind of suprised to hear that you prefer the M24 system over the M40.  You're last post opened my eyes as to how the Jarh,,, Marines actually service/utilize their weapons systems.  It seems obserd that a guy would have to send a rifle back to echlon level maintenance to tighten some action screws, or adjust the sear to bring it back up to a safe level.

I see the M3 scope as having a serious advantage over the Unertl.  IMHO, the 10X Unertl is too old, and scope technology has come too far for the Marines to be paying however much they are for re-furbs when they could buy new M3's for under $1000 each.  Oh,, and the new scopes don't rust. ;))

The Stock would be the only place I'd have reservations of changing.  It's not that I don't like HS Precision, because I do, but the McMillans are more rugged, and I don't think many will argue that point.  If The PWS could/would put a bedding block in the McStock then they would be every bit as transferable and repeatable as the HS stocks.  The McMillans pretty much have to be bedded for the long haul, so without the block, you may not be able to switch the actions from stock to stock on the off chance that one does get broken.  So,, I'd like to see one of two things.  Either HS make a stock that's as rugged as the McMillans, or McMillan make an insertable Bedding block for those that choose to inlet and use them.(The PWS could easily make the blocks/inlet)

It is unbelieveable that the Marines send guys out without an extra bolt, torque wrench, screw kit, etc.  How is this allowed to happen?

BTW,, has anyone here ever seen a McMillan stock broken???

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 01:12:59 (ZULU)


FatDude...

>"If The PWS could/would put a bedding block in the McStock then they would be every bit as transferable and repeatable as the HS stocks.  The McMillans pretty much have to be bedded for the long haul, so without the block, you may not be able to switch the actions from stock to stock on the off chance that one does get broken. "<

Nope... them bedding blocks have to be glass bedded to be accurate and reliable, so there would be no advantage to putting the blocks in a McMillan stock (not to mention patents and other minor thingies ;).

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 01:51:11 (ZULU)



'Lito-san,

Are the In service stocks on the M24's glassed??  

There are several companies using the bedding blocks.  CG Millenium, Barnard, HS Precision, etc.  I don't see why a similar system couldn't be employed in a McMillan stock to allow a quick change.  I agree that it's not ideal, and certainly won't be the most accurate,, but it does work for the Barnard shooters who choose to use it, and many of the HS Precision users.

I don't figure it would be too much trouble for a guy handly with a milling machine to design a simple block that could be bedded into the McStocks.  If I'm not mistaken, there are generic blocks on the market now.  

Am I missing sumtin' mang???

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 02:27:56 (ZULU)


Chris, you asked if you were missing something.

Yeah, actually, could be. No slam intended in the least!

The McMillan stocks are basically made in an interesting process. There's a bladder that they blow up, that expands the shell against a form. When they get done, the bedding area is solid, and machined out. Due to the way it's formed, I don't think that they could put a bedding block in there that would be centered consistently, etc. You notice that when you get the special stuff in there, they either machine it in or form the stock around plates. But then again, plates don't care if they're off centered, they're going to be drilled and tapped after it's set up anyway.

Interestingly enough, that's why you can get some stocks without cheek pieces, no option, or with cheek pieces, no option. It's because of the way the bladder and forms are built.

By the way, the hollow left from the bladder is filled with foam afterwords. I've got to play with the shells, they're cool and solid, but sound like a kids drumset.

What did you ask again?

Jaeger Email this member See this member's profile
the black forest, - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 03:14:29 (ZULU)


FatDude...

I don't know if the in service M24 are glass bedded, but I have have owned and/or worked on so many H-S stocks that I can say that using them without bedding would be an error for the military.

Winchester glass beds their H-S stocks at the factory before shopping, and I have bedded dozens.  The factory fit is poor.

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 10:57:08 (ZULU)


Jaeger,

That makes sense.  I din't take into account centering the block.  The Mastin stocks must be pre-inletted for the block, becuase I know a couple guys who use one stock for 3 different rifles.  Guess that's the reverse of the problem I'm talking about.

'Lito,

Yeah, they are less than stellar, but most of these Winchester Stealths shoot 3/4moa with just that little bit of hot glue.  Some PSS do as well.  I guess it's luck of the draw.  So using the Bedding block without a skim bed is a trade off, finite accuarcy for commonality among the rifles.  But then,, how often is one guy gonna pull his stock off to put on your rifle.  So waht would the answer be?? HS wrapping the stock in fiberglass to prevent the chipping and splitting?

I guess I'm beating a dead horse.  Probably good though, as if there was a live horse in the MidWest, Joe M would have it in his barn when he got home ;))

FatBoy...  

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 12:16:41 (ZULU)


Chris..

  Haven't been able to get into the DR for a day or so now until Sarge sent me an in. I haven't had a chance to read any posts yet from the last day or so but wanted to tell you I did get a chance to test the VV-N560.

  If you need velocity then this is your powder!!! I loaded 55grs and the average was 3115 out of a 26" barrel with my 140 AMAXs!!! Accuracy sucked the 4831SC load was slow at 2900 so will bump it up and bring the 560 down and try it again. 4831s shooting real well at 2900. (No pressure signs with the 55grs of 560 by the way, noticalbe blast change).

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 13:04:26 (ZULU)


Pat; what's the half life of that bomb? Sounds like 4320 or thereabouts.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 13:43:27 (ZULU)


Guys PLEASE e-mail everyone you have in your address books that comes to the DR and pass on the address I've give to get in!! This will let everyone in until Ken can get the problem fixed!

Thanks,

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 13:47:58 (ZULU)


Chris & Catman..

  The M-24s are "NOT" bedded. They are not like the H&S stocks you get with the PSS or the Remingtons. The couple that my son had both fit like a glove to the rifle.

  When I was shooting with him before he went to the Wilson matches I took his apart to look at it an check the fit. There was no binding or touching anywhere. We took it out and put it back in the stock, torqued it down and it shot right back where it was zeroed. The rifle shot very well too.

 I got my new range set up with some steel yesterday. Its been so damn windy here that it keeps snapping off my sticks when I put cardboard up to shoot at. I can shoot to 1500yds now if I want to. I want to try to get a good load for the 6.5x284 and give that a try one of these days.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 14:37:52 (ZULU)


Anybody have experience w/ the A.R.M.S scope mount for the M1A/M21/M14?  How do they stack up to the Brookfield?

The two HS Precision stocked rifles w/ bedding-block I've owned so far (A VS and a Stealth) needed a good skim-bed job before they could have been termed "Repeatable" upon assembly/disassembly.  LOTS o' slop!

The guy w/ the Stealth problem;  Check for bbl. movement when torquing the action screws.  

I didn't spend my time in the Corps as a Scout/Sniper, but I can assure you that it sounds as if the "Supply System" hasn't changed a bit.  And that's FU#@ED!  So I second what Ken and The Gunner are sayin'.  (FWIW)

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 17:33:17 (ZULU)


"Anyone here ever do any business with armsandammo.com? Their website says "Wholesale reloading supplies to the public". I'm looking at ordering some stuff as their prices seem pretty darn good, but I thought I'd do some research first."

Thanks

Rich S.    

Rich, Arms and Ammo makes all the larger Tulsa, OK. gun shows.  I have purchased a lot of powder, bullets and cases from them.  They have always been good to deal with at the shows, but I never ordered anything from them.

Harold

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 17:38:20 (ZULU)


Hey Guys. ('Lito disregard this, as it's identical to what we "talked" about....thanks)

        I gots a couple questions I wanna "axe" ya'll .  Have any of you ever done any bidness with www.armsandammo.com?   They seem to have some good prices.  I just want to make sure I don't fall prey to any scheisters.  Sarge, thanks for the response.   I was thinkin of picking up a new Bore Tech rod for my SCLE and I haven't seen ANYONE with a price as low as theirs ($28).

     Also, the warming weather etc. has seemed to help induce a rapid case of "GAD" (Gun Acquisition Disorder).  I already have on order from a gunshop at my folks (I still buy all my handguns in PA, MD sucks for handgun availability, prices....hell MD sucks for just about everything except crabcakes) one of the new Colt re-issued Series 70's.  They are wonderful handling guns.  Lots o' smiths are saying they're the best gun Colts made in a LOOOOOOOOONG time.  After handling a couple I totally agree.  This one I plan on keeping as "issued" (no Novaks, Beavertails etc.....), as I have a Springfield "loaded" as my serious "Social" gun.  Anyway, I have a Glock 19 that I just don't shoot (1911's have spoiled me) so I'm gonna trade it this weekend on something, but I need input on deciding what.  I was looking at the following ...

1.  Browning HP...I like the idea of owning a couple good examples of J.M Browning's designs. It's just such a classic pistol, and good quality hi caps are readily available.  Also from what I understand, Browning is looking to get out of the pistol business (scares of the sporting clays crowd I guess) and a HP with the word "Browning", on it may not be available (as a new gun) for much longer.  And yes I do realize FN's been making 'em  and will likely remain available in that guise.  Plus I like 9mm for cheap practice.

2. Ruger GP 100 (notice, no trouble saying "Ruger" when dealing with revolvers;)))...I had one a couple years ago (4" stainless) and loved it.  Don't know why I sold it, but let's just agree that hindsight's a bitch.

3.  S&W 686...never owned a S&W.  Now, I'm not trying to stir a "Ford vs. Chevy" type of debate, but are there any advantages to the Ruger vs. the Smith?  Accuracy, toughness etc.  I'm looking at a .357 wheelgun mainly cuz I don't gots one.

So I'm still leaning towards the HP, but what do you guys think and more importantly WHY?  Oh BTW, whatever I get will most likely be a safe/range queen so CCW and "stopping power" aren't really big issues.

Thanks guys,

Rich S

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 17:46:43 (ZULU)


Rich,

Buy the HP, THEN a 686.  An older one preferably.  

Ruger is a good strong gun, but the Smitty slicks up better and easier.  (Least the old ones do.) And the 686 is a strong .357, too.

I finally got another HP in 9 not long ago.  A new "Standard" w/ fixed sights.  Took out the mag safety and did a trigger job.  Sure a sweety-pie.  Nothin' handles like 'em.  Mags. (Good hi-caps) are getting expensive and harder to come by. Buy it now.

Then look for an older Smith.  The older the better.

Not even worth 2 cents,

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 19:16:57 (ZULU)


Thanks Dennis,

Now do all the new Smiths' coming out have that abhorrent keylock B.S.?  If I can't find an older one in great condition, I may go for the Ruger.  I just can't stand the idea of a key operated pistola.  So far it's looking like it's gonna be the HP followed by some sort of .357.

Thanks,

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 19:20:10 (ZULU)


Pat,

Is there any way to verify this??( through H & S).

" The M-24s are "NOT" bedded. They are not like the H&S stocks you get with the PSS or the Remingtons. The couple that my son had both fit like a glove to the rifle.".

That they are WORKED/ FITTED/ BEDDED differently, than the off the line stocks??.( by H S Precision?).

JR, maybe can shed some light on this........

( do not get me wrong, I am not doubting YOUR take on the one's you saw, I have just never heard they were different in any way).

Thanks!

Two

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 19:31:24 (ZULU)


Rich,

Sounds like a plan.

I would think that all the new Smiths are like that.  But I ain't sure.  Nothin' wrong w/ a Ruger REVOLVER. HA!

(Finally sold my mini and have another m1a.  heeheeheeeeeeeee.)

Have fun.

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, KA, usa - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 19:34:58 (ZULU)


to Jim Fudge

dear sir

please query your gunsmith/armourer if your gun barrel is in parallel

whit the receiver of it .

if not you will need to rebarrel the gun.

avi

avi Email this member See this member's profile
haifa, israel, israel - Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 20:05:53 (ZULU)



Pat,

I tried the H4350 this last week.  It shot a 193-6X Sunday, with an 8 out at 9oclock and an 8 at 3oclock.  Verticle spread from Gumby was about 20" off a sling.(probably half that with a bipod)  I was happy considering I've considered the barrel "shot out" for the last 200 rounds.  50.2gr was putting nekid 142's down range at 2930fps.  The Rem 91/2M's were cratering abit, but they're softer than butter, so I'm not worried about that.  I'm gonna try the load again this Sunday, and another 10 or 15 out of Kilr Beez and hopefully I've worked through my verticle string problem.

So,, that brings me to a cross roads.  Do I pull the Rock Creek barrel at 1100 rounds and send her off to George, or keep her running until I'm positive it's toast??  The New Borders aren't in country yet (though I'm told there is quite an order coming),, so I think I'll wait,, but I have this little voice saying, "She's gonna go to pot when you're three shots away from taking States."

BTW,, anyone who wonders about or has waited on buying a Border barrel,, I give them 2 great big thumbs up.  10 patches cleaned a 30" tube of all powder and copper, after 15 rounds fired as fast as they put the target in the air.  No abrasives,, Just Hoppes #9 for the powder and a few scrubs (forgive me JR) with a Nylon brush and some Barnes CR-10.  Oh,, and of those 15, 4 were sighters after a re-bed, and of the remaining 11 it only dropped 1 point at 1K off a sling.

2.5x10x44 Nikon Tactical,

a little over 500(maybe 600) rounds under it so far, out of three different rifles.  It's been moved at least 10 times and the zero has been dead on repeatable on each rifle.  The track tests all work out to within .5 moa (the limit of me and the rifles) and all the max adjustment tests have brought it back on, dead nuts, every time.  The contrast with this scope is better than my NXS by far, and beats my Lupita as well.  Very nice piece of glass. If it was .5 moa click adjustable instead of .25, I'd buy as many as I can get my hands on!!  Oh,, and it has 104 MOA internal elevation and 104 windage when centered, so a flat base will workie fine with even a slow 308.  

The negetives??  When the parallax on my scope is dialed out at 1000 I'm up against the stop.  It is a perfect correction though.  I suppose this may be by design, and I haven't tried to take it past 1K, but I'd like to have the option.  It also needs a set of Butler Creek caps or a bikini cover, as the lids that come with it leave much to be desired.  The turret clicks sound sharper going one direction than the other, but the feel is the same going both directions and they're repeatable,, so it's just a nit pick.  That's pretty much it.

Anyone else using one yet???  If so,, what's your take?

Sorry for the long post guys,, just seems things are finally coming together for the season.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 20:22:41 (ZULU)


Glockamolie,

 Don't misunderstand me, they are made the same and are the same stock as in the books but the quality is much better. They are like the first H&S stocks I bought from the company, they "FIT" the rifle the rifle sets in the barrel channel straight. You don't need to grind on them for an hour fitting them in the block so they don't "Bind" when you tighten them down.

 Every Remington I have bought has had to be ground on to fit right. I had a 25-06 brought to me that shot 1 3/4" to 2" groups in a HB. When loosening the front action screw it lifted up out of the barrel channel like a cobra out of a basket. After an hours grinding on it it shot .6 groups with the same load.

 I personally think that after they got the Remington contract they were so busy that quality control went down hill. Just my opinion though so take it for what its worth.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 21:02:26 (ZULU)


This is for a friend, I know that the current popular .308W trick setup uses the 175g HPBTM projectile from Sierra.

"The Military and Police Sniper" by Mike Lau

(Precision Shooting publication)

Page 115 caption on GM308MB box:

"Federal 180gr. HPBT Gold Medal Match made for in small quantity lot

for SOCOM in 1994 and is not available commercially."

My friend would be interested in a commercial or lawful source for these.  He tried a sample several years ago and was very happy with its grouping.  Amy source ideas?  He already spoke to Federal.

                             \\

Am I correct in assuming these were loaded using the Sierra 2220 180g HPBTM projectile?

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 01:28:02 (ZULU)



I can tell you unequivocally that the M24 is not bedded nor shimmed.  The weapon returns to zero upon reassembly, with a .5 moa shift being the max that I have seen.  Our students take apart on aregular basis to clean the recoil lug recess, stock surfaces, and receiver/trigger assemblies when tehy have fired in a sandy or dirty situation, to include when they get wet form rain or stalks.

My two cents on a few things from past posts.  The 6.8 is a joke and is being faught by all with a grain of common sense.  The round is NOT for the M4 but the SPR.  The 77gr is working fine and the ONLY problem is NOT the 5.56 but the bullet being used.  Everyone can bemoan the state of logistics but it is a fact of life that the more "choices" put into the system, the more it screws up.  The look right now is to get rid of the light/fast round and go to the 77gr.  It has worked fine and gets a high lethality score by our guys in the field.  Then again they use something called shot placement and have not been seduced by the siren call of the new "technology whiz bang" tomake up for poor shot placement and and the chronic use of full auto when it is definately not needed.  The 6.8, again, introduces a non standard round into the mix and when you run out of ammo no one in your area can "give you and assist" as they are shooting something else.  Those 7 to 12 lb clubs are a pain, been there done that, not interested in ever repeating that stupidity.

The need for new rounds that go further and kill faster.  Nope, the .308 works fine for 99.9% of the shooting done by snipers and DMs.  Crap, if we had changed calibers everytime a new "hot" round came out we would be knee deep, NO, waist deep in ammo.  Why use a round that is a step up in only a few of the ranges a sniper is called upon to engage?  I have heard the stories from A'stan and Iraq.  I also know the vast majority of shots were made at much closer ranges.  Oh they never make the news as they are not spectacular enough.  But again the average engagement range was 450 to 500 meters, with many much closer.  One of our guys whacked 18 at less then 300 with a SPR and a suppressor.  Yep, really needed that "special bullet".  While I agree that a larger caliber is needed for the sniper in certain circumstances, the idea of a mass change over is bad.  Everyone has heard the horror stories of keeping a 7.62mm M40A1/2 up in the Marine Corps.  Well imagine a weapon that burns the barrel twice as fast.  No, becareful of what you wish for as it may come true and then you will have weapons that burn out, can't have maintenance performed on them often enough, and you, the shooter, finds out on the ground wiht a burned barrel and weapon that won't hit Jacks**t.

Chris - I can tell you for a fact that the McMilian Bros Stocks aren't more rugged thent he H&S staocks.  We have both stocks go through our course and the H&S has never given us problems and stay accurate.  The McMillian stocks have lost accuracy due to the banging around and rounds down range, and being dropped from airplanes.  Hell, had a stock go from over 500 feet to gound level and the dam thing was fine, one even stayed zeroed.  The two McMillian Bros stocks were broken in two pieces and could not be fired.  Our H&S stocks are great and they may be special made, I do not know, I do know that one of our guys just got a new H&S stock for his rifle.  He loves it and has had it apart twice now wihtout loss of zero.  And no Lito, he has not skim coated it. :-)

Gooch, and just think, if they had gone to the M3A they could have the 175 gr go as fst as they want it because the collar doesn't cost squat. :-)  Hell they could interchange the scope on several weapons as the collars don't cost squat!  :-)

Well we are hosting a "practice" USASOC sniper comp next week.  Should be fun.  Snaps, movers, low pecentage movers, movers on a count, rapid bolt manipulation drills, rural stalk and urban stalk. Unknown distance with scope manipulation allowed and unkown distance wiht no scope manipulation allowed, 500 meter set with hold offs.  Urban stress shoot, Urban positon shoot, poker shoot, egg shoot, and tie breaker head shots to furthest distance.  Should be fun, of course the observation exercise could be even more fun.  If all works out we will try ot have the actual comp in the Novmber to January time frime. :-)

Hold hard guys, busy here and doesn't seem to want to let up much.

Rick

Rick Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 01:29:29 (ZULU)


Well.......good evening gentlemen.  I hope all of you are well.  To those of you who attended ASC #2, it was good to see some of you again and meet others of you.  It is always good to be able to put a face with a name.  I would like to thank John Markwell and Rod Hansen for getting this together again this year.  I had a good time once again.  In the future though, can you please order some better weather?  He he!!!  I would also like to thank Brock, Jeremy, Tyler and anyone else that was involved in this effort and of course Joe Harper for the use of that beatiful piece of property.  I would also like to thank all of the individuals and companies that donated prizes.  The prize table was a sight to behold let me tell you!!!!

Congratulations to Mark Kerenyi for winning ASC #2.  I wasn't in Mark's group, but I understand that he wasn't missing much.  Congrats!!!!

ASC #2 was a great time, but as I mentioned, the weather was terrible.  I arrived at my house Sunday evening and immediately started cleaning my rifle.  After I poured the water out of the objective lense of my scope I began to wipe the rest of the rifle.  It became apparent that I was going to have to do some serious cleaning on this rifle so I took it completely apart.  I am glad I decided to do that.  There was water EVERYWHERE and rust was forming.  Ten minutes with an air hose and an ounce of CLP later, I believe I have the matter under control.  The rifle is still broken down into its componet parts and soaked with oil.  I will reassemble it this weekend and get ready to do it again.  Also, my Gore-Tex should be dry by then too.  As I said, a GREAT time!

I see that some of you guys have been experimenting with Ramshot TAC.  I bought some of this last fall for testing and the results have been good.  I fired several strings with it at Camp Butner during the 600 and 1000 yard matches with good results.  My scores stayed right where they normally are with a similar x-count.  This powder seems to be a good powder.  The thing I like best is that it is a ball powder and meters really well.  Also, grain for grain, it makes higher velocities than Varget.  My standard load is 45 grains of Varget, Winchester case, Federal 210 M primer, 175 smk and OAL 2.825".  This makes ~2660 out of my factory 24" Savage barrel.  It only takes 44 grains of TAC to match this velocity and accuracy.  I am still testing and when I get some time, I will get the data from my chronograph sessions and post it here if there is an interest.  Take care all.

Semper Fi

Paul Email this member See this member's profile
NC, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 01:47:01 (ZULU)


rodreiger,

This ammo was made in a small quanity, and yes it was the Sierra 180 BTHP.

I have Several boxes of it, and as you saw, it is accurate.

I beleive it has been re-intro'd........

Go to:

www.ammoman.com

Part# 308-4712BX-4712........$399.00 per case(500).

Free shipping CONUS.......

IF you call them( I would), make sure it is labeled GM308MB.

It is loaded with ball powder, and looks exactly like 748.

It performed not quite as expected at longer ranges, and really was the Daddy(precurser) to the development of the 175.

Hope this helps.

Two

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 02:27:53 (ZULU)


John L;

   Thanks for the info on TAC powder. I'll contact them and see what kind of deal they have for FFL's.

LATER

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 03:37:16 (ZULU)


IF you want to know the difference between a .223 5.56 or whatever and a .308 on the field. Get 2 gallon Milk cartons full of water, put em 25 yards away and shoot em. with the same kind of ammo (prefering  A-max) It ain't hard to see what stops the best. Even a FMJ will demonstrate for you. Even you ignore George and Rick who are both right the hell on, this will do it for you.

.223 at 77 grains does do a lot better, maybe you need three jugs.

S&W makes a better mouse trap in the revolver class.  The Ruger Redhawk and GP-100 are really workable guns but its the difference between Rosie O'dumbel  and Kim Basinger when you go by the feel. The S&W is class. The 686 ain't the best but to your own taste, have at it but earlier manufacturer is best. I don't like that curious little crook on the GP-100 trigger. My big fingers don't fit well.

The double action pull is trashy unless fiddled with. The S&W ain't.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 03:42:27 (ZULU)


Rick,

It seems that the more I think I know, the less I actually do...  ;))  Thanks for the first hand accounts.

Two Shoes,

Sierra is still making the 180gr SMK.  I was shocked when I saw them on the shelf at the place I buy my powder, as I thought the 175 replaced them.  The guy picking them up says they perform better than everything else he's tried in his 300WSM.  The BC isn't listed as being as good as the 175's (more like the 168's), but I guess an accurate round is more important than a slippery one in his case.  At least if the GMM is discontinued, you could home roll it.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 03:42:59 (ZULU)


S&W DAs every time.  A good smith has to slick 'em up.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 04:34:32 (ZULU)


OK,

Bill and CDC', So Smith's rule the revolving roost.  Now, do you guys have any adverse experiences with their new dumb-ass locking system?  Right now, that's the biggest thing that's keeping me from getting a S&W.

Bill, since you said the 686 wasn't the  best, which one do you recommend?  

Thanks guys,

Rich

Rich S Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 04:39:45 (ZULU)



Rich; it kind of depends. The N-Frame is the strongest by quite a lot, but for close quarters combat the Model 19 combat magnum especially the early models where the cylinder is recessed usually sport the best of everything. The red ramp and white outline is preferred by a lot of people but I like the Eliason type myself. It is hard to find a 19 with anything but Red and white. The 686 does look cool with all the metal up front but the speed is in favor of the lighter weapon. Now, if you want to pursue some of the action sports a tricked 686 will probably be preferred due to the balance being up front. The sheer weight of the N-frame slows the deployment to some extent for me but it's a great gun by any standard.

The .41 magnum is my choice in the N-frame for hunting or anything that requires or is apt to acquire long shots. One of the fastest revolvers by the way is the model 10. (that ought to get some looks).

Practice rolling the cylinder with your trigger finger till you can stop justs before the hammer falls and then let it back down, in that exercise the cylinder should advance. This will greatly improve your shooting double action at least. The brain will eventually do this at very high speed and bring you right on target and your trigger control will be superb. I know that sounds like hoo doo and it takes a lot of doing to make it work.

I just realized this will sound like I'm training some bad habit into the trigger work so that you might not allow the hammer to drop. There is a school who would be against that but it won't happen and it will only help your shooting. There is also a school that teaches rear trigger pull with the end of the finger past the last joint. But I use the last joint to control the whole operation and the grip is much enhanced. This may not work at first but lots of practice will do the job.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 05:12:33 (ZULU)


Paul,

Don't feel bad. I had my rifle totally broken down too after ASC#2. I just remounted the scope yesterday. I used a can of compressed air to blow out as much of the water as I could from the tight spots. I think I got everything. I also had my pack, rain gear, drag bag etc out on the deck Monday morning with the hose and bucket of soapy water scrubing it. Luckily it was about 75 degrees that day. i forgot what the sun looked like. ;) So how did you find out who won the match. Have Rod or John sent out a standings list that I missed? If so could you forward it to me. Thanks.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 11:49:22 (ZULU)


Ref: Revolvers

The only wheel-gun I still have is a 4" 686 that has been modified by C&S to take full moon clips and has a black blade up front.  Shooting this revolver is fun and is quite a crowd pleaser.  My standard load is 125 grain JHPs pushed by 9 grains of Unique.  There is plenty of "thunder and lightning".  The rig is accurate and as fast as I am.  I took Sinister Dave into the basement range for a demonstration once and I think he'll vouch for the pyrotechnics.  My sole complaint is that I still get one out of fifty failure to fire.  The mainspring screw is all the way in so I don't think that's it.  My primers are all Winchesters.  Any ideas????

Ref: Laser Sights

I've been working out with the NVGs and my pistols.  I think the best set up would be an IR laser on the pistol.  Does anybody out there make such a beast??

I've been on the road this week.  I'm hanging out with Acehigh and having a great time. This job is killing me....ouch!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 12:00:25 (ZULU)


rod regier...

>"Federal 180gr. HPBT Gold Medal Match made for in small quantity lot for SOCOM in 1994 and is not available commercially."

My friend would be interested in a commercial or lawful source for these.  He tried a sample several years ago and was very happy with its grouping.  Amy source ideas?  He already spoke to Federal.

                            \\

Am I correct in assuming these were loaded using the Sierra 2220 180g HPBTM projectile?"<

Rod... Companies like Federal will make special runs from time to time, and therse are NOT catalogue items.  The only way to find this ammo is if it's sitting somewhere.  The 175 is a better bullet, so very few shoot the 180 anymore.

-

Glockamole'...

The ammoman is a good source of ammo, but he is in the business of selling off discontinued lots.  If he has it, it ain't being re-introduced, it's discontinued old stock.  Doesn't mean it's badd... just if you want it, buy ALL THAT YOU CAN AFFORD, cuz once it's gone, it's G-O-N-E.

-

Paul...

If you ccan run some temperature sensitivity tests on the Tac, please let me know... I have a loading machine waiting for the information.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 13:40:02 (ZULU)



Re: Cleaning up really dirty weapons - when I was a jarhead, we used to use really hot water heated in garbage cans, the same way we cleaned mess kits in the field. 'Lito posted a note about using a metal Brownell bluing tank with holes cut into it to use on a stove as a heating chamber for drying paint. You could do the same thing, sans holes of course, for getting water really hot after hosing all the crap out of your barrelled action. Leave it long enough to get all of the metal temperature up to the boiling point of water, shake it a few times to get the loose water out, and it'd dry real quick. Oil it up, and you're ready to go. It also works well for cleaning the cosmoline out of stored weapons. The disadvantage is that you'd want to take the scope off, first.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 13:42:47 (ZULU)


Rick..

 Have to agree with you, I like the H&S stocks better than the McMillans. I think H&S is just as tough it not tougher. I don't care for the McMillans extra weight when I am the one packing it around. Maybe its because I am just getting old(HA).

 As far as skim bedding them, I know where Catman is comming from on that. The new H&S stocks on Remingtons suck for fit, they are "NOT" like the ones I purchased years ago from H&S. I have had to bed them all to get the accuacy I wanted. I bed mine anyway just to take out anything that may cause me a problem down the road.

Chris..

 Hope to get back out on the cronograph again tonight, the wind is suppose to be down to around 10mph. It was blowing 15 to 20 last night so I shot steel instead of load testing.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 14:44:59 (ZULU)


Smith 27s are best for shooting.  Big, heavy, solid gun that you can put a bunch of rounds through without breaking the gun or giving you a flinch.  19s are best for carrying, but they get sloppy if you put a bunch of full-house rounds through it.  For me, recoil is noticably worse.  It bothers me.

Best comprimise for me is the 686 with the 5 1/2" (I think) barrel.  The Hogue grips are nice.  A good smith positively must work these guns over.  Screw the action spring to give you the HARDEST DA trigger pull.  The action is faster and the ignition is more positive.

The 625 or an old 25 is my first choice.  Fill with .45 Auto Rims and carry Auto Rims in belt loops for tac loads.  Use full-moons for speed loads.  Make dummies of both and practice both.  Great field gun and it doesn't toss your brass in the weeds.  Sparks makes a holster called the "Hackathorn" that works real nice.  It works great with the wilderness rescue belt Gunsite sells.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 14:58:59 (ZULU)



Kevin, "686 that has been modified ... one out of fifty failure to fire"

A couple of thoughts come to mind that you might want to check.  During the mods did they change out the main spring to lighten the trigger pull or possibly shorten the main spring screw?  My other thought was that either your firing pin is a little on the short side or when the cylinder was machined for the full-moon clips that they went to deep.  My theory is that you are getting light strikes and that they are caused by one or a combination of the conditions mentioned above.

Trouble shooting is such fun 8-(

Not that it is the ideal solution but you might try using softer primers, everyone seems to think Federal are soft or maybe Remington.  Thinking of primers have you tried from different lots, is it possible you have a bad lot of primers?  Were the primer pockets uniformed?  If they are to deep that would also cause a light strike.

You've probably already thought of all this but with the site being up and down and up...I had to get back on for my daily fix 8-)

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 15:23:11 (ZULU)



Pat,

My comments about the HS stocks come from reading about guys who have split the forearm, split the stock around the bedding block, a broke off forearm cap and I've chipped mine from normal maintenace of the rifle.  There have been several guys here that have had cracking problems, causing the stock to vibrate when shot.  I'm almost certain I remember each guy said HS replaced the stock no charge.

I hadn't heard any of these problems arising from McMillans and until Rick mensioned the 500' drop, I don't recall one complaint.  I know they need to be bedded, but I thought they were the most rugged stock out there.

I wonder if there was just a bad run of HS stocks out there, and most of the splitting problems stem from that run?  

The only trouble I've had from mine was a 1" long piece chipped off under the floorplate when I put the magwell back in one time.  Winchester replaced the stock at no charge,, so no harm,, no foul.  What bothered me was the shell looked like it was made of powder, pressed together.  It had tiny bubbles all through the broke section.

For my money, I'd still like to see a more rugged shell on the HS's.  

10MPH wind being calm,,, LOL,,,,  I don't see how you guys do it.  Is it a steady wind ya'll get out there, because 10MPH here means 3mph one second, 15 the next,, in a different direction. ;))

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 15:32:01 (ZULU)


Rick and Gooch, opinions are well you know.  The only true differences between the M24 and M40 are the stocks and optics.

1. McMillan versus HS Precision. Used both. A bedded McMillan will out shoot an unbedded HS Precision Stock. A bedded McMillan will return to zero if taken from stock and a Torque wrench is used both times the action is seated. Mc Millans quality is more consistent than HS's.  Slight differences in stocks dont matter get what you feel best with. I  prefer bedding for most accurate system. If it breaks I can install unbedded McMillan or HS and be  where M24 starts.

2. Unertl versus MK4/M3 Ultra. M3 is a better scope. THis is the main difference.

3. Both M24 and M40's use fine 24" bbls and no real difference in quality exists. One Cavet is if Remington uses their 5r bbl instead of Mike Rocks. Mikes are fantastic and Remington bbls suck.

4. PWS does a better job of truing action and installing a bbl than Remington does.

5. George Gardner should build them all and then they would have some truly fine systems.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 15:41:40 (ZULU)


V I R U S - A L E R T !

If anybody gets an email from me titled "A SPECIAL GOOD TOOL" dump it without opening it.  It has a virus attached!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't sent anybody here any mail for a few days so it's not coming from me.  Somebody's fucking with the DR again.

I know one went to Gooch - his system rejected it and sent me a notice.

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 16:01:45 (ZULU)


McMillan Stock vs H&S stock:  No strong opinion either way.  Slightly prefer the Mc stock, and see no problem with bedding in real life for people who don't jump out of planes and drop their rifles.  Depends on the mission.  In my case, you drop a rifle 500' AGL, you're not even going to waste the time looking for it in most combat environments.  Four guys looking for a rifle that augered in from 500'?  Maybe if you're REALLY tight with Jesus, you'll find it before you have to be somewhere doing something.  And maybe, it might even still be shootable.  

M40A1 vs M24:  Short action on M40A1, nice to have.  PWS does a better job than Rem in making rifles.  Rem is much faster on service according to what I hear.  If PWS worked faster and the USMC allowed more stuff to be done at the lower levels we wouldn't have a problem.  As Gooch said, too much micro management because the HQ MF's think grunts are too stupid to be allowed to do anything on the rifles.  Well gents, the rifle deosn't work and you have to mail everything separately to PWS, what harm is there in letting the users try to fix it?  It just might work and you won't have to send the rifle to the black hole of PWS.  My biggest bitch with PWS is the fact that they overpromise and underdeliver.  They need to seriously look at rationalising their work.  It's very much like the Krauts in WWII, great stuff, just too little of it.  

Sniper rifles and DM/service rifles  are two different critters.  DM=squad level and snipers=Bn level.  When you compromise on product because your pogues are lazy, you've failed.  Period.  Not just on the ammo techs and armorers, but all your support staff.  The idea of tactical and technical excellence is dead, in the both the officer and enlisted communities.  IMO, it's the result of our f**king educational system teaching a bunch of real world useless liberal arts bullshit, instead of the hard sciences and technical skills.  

I could go into a wonderful story about sniper rifle repair and the levels of stupid involved, but I'll give these idiots here one last chance to do the right thing.  Let it be known that micromanagement and the complete unwillingness to spend a little money is wasting HUGE amounts of time.  

Rick, concur on the 6.8 until the US can do a complete changeover across the board. Now with the USMC going to M16A4's and the US Army going to M4's, it might be the ideal time, but we're going to do the same thing now that McArthur did in the 30's with the 276Peterson.  That being, staying with the 30-06 because of budget and stockpile reasons.  Did it really matter?  Don't know, can't prove a negative.  But when the OICW POS comes out in 5.56 with that 10" barrel, what then?

Sniper rifles and mantainence.  One of my younger brothers is a mech engineer who works making aluminum castings for brakes on Harleys(Hog riders don't ask me for anything)  They have a nice program that replaces all their tooling on a set schedule, with adequate replacement parts on hand for immediate repair and everything runs fine with no stoppages.  Anyone see any reason why we couldn't do this with sniper rifles?  No, because there isn't a reason.  You could have spare scopes, complete bolts and other materials on hand for the rare occasions when something fails.  What this requires is having S4 types that stock the gear, and snipers trained enough to fix the basics that don't require milling machines and lathes to repair.  We have this leftover, conscript military aversion to properly training our troops.  I'm not sure why, perhaps too cheap, or perhaps fear of an independant and intellgent population that doesn't need to USG for every little thing, who knows.  S/F...Ken M        

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 17:05:45 (ZULU)


Has anyone ever tried to install a mercury filled recoil reducer in a McMillian or HS stock?  Any ideas on what it might do to accuracy?

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 19:11:13 (ZULU)


Alright, got the damn 'puter up and running again, got me a virus busting set up and it ckleaned the thing out, but the damn thing then went on strike.

My damn knee is bothering me some, since disclocating the sod the other day i've managed to do it two more times, been the hospital, the docs the orthepedics and i'm set for one of these funny scan things where they stick you in some tube tunnel thing and do some fancy pictures of whatever is screwed. any way, looks like it'll put a stop to my disco dancin' for a while, i just hope it doesn't screw up my hunting ability.

Ken m, Lindy, Gooch etc. ref Armourers, if you want to be an Armourer in the Brit army you have to sign on the dotted line for 6 years minimum(i signed for 9). the course is about 12 months, that gets you to be a class 3 ( 2110?) after 6 months experience at a unit you can either, do a course to get to be a class 2 ( 2111 ?) if you did good on your basic course you get made up to class 2 without a further course.If you did exeptional on your basic, you leave trade school already a class 2(me). depending on unit commitments and all sorts of other burocratic shit and some political bull thrown in, like if yer face fits,etc, you get to do a class 1 course any where between 1 year and 6 years after your basic ends. Class one would be 2112 id guess, you are only supposed to work on some of the weapons unsupervised if you are class 2, sniper rifles and some other stuff are supposed to be only worked on by the class 1's (2112?) each infantry unit has atleast 2 class 1 Armourers, one will be a SSGT, the other either a Cpl or a Lcpl.( then you will have a couple of Cfn's both class 2, one maybe a class 3) Of course nothing ever goes by the book because as a class 2 it is usual to work on everything there is, i kept the sniper rifles, firmly under my belt, firstly because i was interested in em, secondly because i'd been around rifles for years, and i was in the regt shooting team any way, and because i figured i was the best Armourer in the Bn (and Div)but in the other Inf Bns in the Div i know everyone mucked in on them. There where certain repairs that where supposed to be only carried out at 2nd line ( regt armourer's shop is 1st line in most cases), you couild either 1043 the kit to the nearest field workshop, and wait for them to fix it( the armoureres there where trained exactly the same as you, but at second line they had some special tools not issued to first line) or you could go over on a wednesday afternoon ( sports afternoon) and do the repairs your self using thier kit(and if you didn't get it done wednesday then you'd be back friday afternoon before going home for the weekend), any way, what im saying is that all the Brit Army Armoureres are well capable(or should be) of repairing precision weapons.

Now the spares requisition system has always been a chrock of shit, took months to get anything, the only way to keep your kit on the road was to hold a stock pile, which didn't go down with certain blinkered officers who faithfully believed in the supply system, i had one OC ( Maj Walker Nesmith, if i ever see you again i'm gonna kick your ass),who i had such a run in with, it cost me a years delay of been promoted to Cpl, I had to hide my damn stock pile of weapons spares in the damn MFO store cos the twat wanted me to send em all back. and only demand spares as required.. what a clusterfuck that was. any ways,Lindy, the company i work for actualy have a contract repairing weapons for the Royal Air Force.It would be a good idea if we could do it for the whole of the Brit Forces, at 2nd line and base level, i've sent proposals to the director, and am about to send same to some high ranking officers in the REME, see if i can get me back in a gun type job.

Jody, hunting Scotland, basicaly stalking about the hills and woods of a certain part of Scotland for a week(usualy early morning late evening, but it can be done all day) trying to spot Roe Bucks and then shoot them, recover the carcase and then try to get another one.Roe Buck season goes from April 1st to 20th October ( Jon B correct me if i'm wrong, is there a difference between England and Scotland still?

Right, I've taken up enough band width..

catch ya'll later. Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 20:12:11 (ZULU)


Took a day off from reading the DR, and thought marius booted me, couldn’t get on for a few days..  And I HATE when it takes me 10 minutes to realise the television is speaking in Gaelic…

Mayhem:

<<If you have a standard weight barrel that is totally releaved, would it be any less accurate than a heavy barreled rifle that is also releaved? Since yes, there would be more barrel whip, but since there would be no deviation in the barrel whip, wouldn't the bullet release be the same?>>

Nope, what you need to worry about is limiting any movement at the muzzle end, any whip is bad news...barrel whip ain’t the same shot to shot mate, barrel warms up, barrel does different things.. the more noodly your barrel contour is, the worse it will be…You can get too heavy as well, where the weight at the front of the bbl is actually bowing or bending the barrel down from the action…some of these benchresters get away with using superfat barrels by bedding the barrel(using barrel blocks)  and floating the action..General rule though, heavier barrels tend to vibrate less than skinny barrels, and that is a good thing…

‘Yote:

>>OH good grief JR the barrel maker! Cones are nice and smooth you don't do a cone anyway you you you! HE's pickin on me again!>>

Pickin on YOU? How’d ya guess..  Ha.. Youse master dremelsmith youse…You ever try that cratex for polishin up your crowns?  Good stuff eh..

>>Most of these cone tools do cut about a 30 degree angle by the way. It's only about a 64th or so long so. Barrel makers are wierdos! And they have to have a lathe! What's that? :)>>

Double HA!!   You know very well I can never cross over to the dark side when I have machine tools in hand…..

Oh yeah, HS stuff…:

‘lito,

Winchester beds their stocks, but HS doesn’t say you shouldn’t bed Win stocks…flat bottom receivers should be bedded, and HS has always been in agreement with that…it’s the round actions that are supposed to reflect the v-block type chassis without the need for additional bedding, which would be true if Remington actions were round.  and the blocks were fitted square.  hahah…

M24 stocks are same process as the rest…  

Mike,

 

That is a profound statement undude……HS system is rugged reliable and repeatable, there is no question when they send these grunts out that the shot will be a hit, no matter the abuse.  Is it benchrest?  Definitely can be, you don’t just pull one off the line, but every rifle I’ve built for me has match written all over it, can be done, and I would pit any of them against any like rifle system.. You can trick  anything up, but a stock HS has a reliable system that works, and works for the situation necessary for military and LE sniping…It meets their demands, to a T…For a production stock, the HS had no competition(emphasize HAD), there is no way Mac could have matched HS’s production…What’s the biggest problem with bedding stocks?  Bedding them..ha..Often you have to rebed or repair every time you rebarrel…HS got around this problem, rebarrel to the action, fit to chassis, torque to spec, shoot and go….it does what it is supposed to do..  But Mike, I'm speakin of my time back there, I have no clue what tomorrow brings for HS..

What I do know is QC has been slowly phased out in the stock department over the past few years…Remington contract years were the peak of QC, then the orders stopped, boss left town,  and here we are today discussing the shit HS produces..ha..The only thing they had left was their customer service then they can Janet?  Double HA..don’t miss the soap opera one bit..

Nevertheless, HS is still a much more rugged stock design than a Mac…no contest there..I KNOW what extremes the Marines and Army put these stocks to, seen it personally, it's almost vulgar...

Chris,

have fitted a few of these, and yeah they help..accuracy is always enhanced when the rifle isn't kicking the piss out of you..don't you agree?  ha..

later

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 20:25:37 (ZULU)


Chris...

  Yes,10mph is a shootable day(HA). I was out shooting the other day with a 15 to 20mph wind, (It hardly ever blows just one speed) and from the angle it was blowing I only had to put in 75" of wind drift at 1000yds so that wasn't to bad.

  Its the gusts that frustrate me, if its a steady wind you can dial it just like elevation but the gusts eat your shorts esp shooting at smaller steel plates. My 1000yd plate is 16x28 (as I recall) and its pretty tough on your wind calls. I shoot at 13x20 plates at 700 an 800 and a 8x14 at 500 to 600yds. So as you can see it doesn't leave much room for error on wind.

  I think someone once told me, "Young shooters study trajectory, old shooters study wind"(HA).

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 21:01:44 (ZULU)


TEST.

SFC Carpentier jr Email this member See this member's profile
C.C., TX, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 22:44:02 (ZULU)


How many of you guys here are going to the SniperQuest at Badlands? I have been to two matches at Badlands and Bobby and Steve put on great matches. I am sure the SniperCountry SniperQuest is going to be a great match.  

SFC Carpentier jr Email this member See this member's profile
C.C, TX, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 22:48:49 (ZULU)


When you shoot in the rain like in ASC#2 and clean your rifle, do you pull the rings off the scope?  Or can I just squirt it with Breakfree and expect it to keep the inside of the rings from rusting?

Jerry

Jerry M Email this member See this member's profile
Wet Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 23:37:59 (ZULU)


Guys just got phone call from Rocky Green, the owner of Unertl. He says his attorney received a phone call today from someone claiming to be John Williams Lawyer stating John Williams is filing for bankruptcy. Unertl's attourney is also Armalite's. Rocky just wanted guys to be aware in case they were about to send money to USO. Not sure how this will play out. Just reporting what I was told.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 01:06:02 (ZULU)


Hi all---just a little poem from my wife!!!!!

GOtta read this

JUST MEN

We came, we saw, we whinned,

What else can we say?

Between the fog and rain

Targets 500 yds away.

Set up on the rock, he says,.

The windage dialed but vague,

Four minutes left my log book reads,

This ASC's a plague.

We're out here in this no where land,

the hills, the rain, the grass,

The one inch tile-the two inch choice

Sniper dude, My ass....

I'm zeroed in- my cold bore shot

My gortex soaked, ice cold

Pad's all muddy, bolt's all stuck

Wondering where to hold

We can't do this, it's too real,

Mildot master, I can't feel

A-max rounds- 308

Four whole hours since I ate.

I came to shoot-I planned to stay

But warmth and food's not far away.

30 of us, yes there were

But only eleven did  endure.

Raining still our humbled one plus ten

Macho snipers or just plain men?

Helen

John Markwell Email this member See this member's profile
The alleghenies, WV, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 01:42:40 (ZULU)


POST FOR A FRIEND REGARDING TAC POWDER

......................................................................

Subject: Free powder and bullets

Anyone going to Sniper Quest that also shoots a Rem 700P LTR, .308 Win?  If so, I would like to meet you there to give you the components to a load I have developed; in exchange for your well documented data, MV’s and come-ups out to 1000 yds.  Obviously, you will need the rifle described above, a chronograph, and access to a 1000 yd range.  Or perhaps someone else out there may already have experience with this load; 170 Lapua Lock Base, RamShot TAC (43.9 gr), CCI BR2?  If so, I’d sure like to hear from you.

I’ve been having pretty good success with this load since having developed it this past winter and I am in the process of gathering actual data with it and I would sure like to partner with someone to compare notes.  I’m coming up 15 at 600 yds and 38 moa at 1k yds, 500’ ASL, 77F.  According to PointBlank, at 1000yds the bullet should traveling at 1300+ fps, I think not bad for a pistol barrel.

Contact me at: davidawilson  "at"  comcast.net

......................................................................

That question about the recoil reducer wasn't from the FatBoy gents,,,,  There seems to be another Chris in the house ;)

Pat,

.75MOA wind to 1K!!!!  Never around here.  Well,, maybe in June/August.  Average here is about 2 to 3 moa, with shifts up to 5 in either direction. Using the FagMag of course.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 02:36:31 (ZULU)


BRogers - I believe we used to call that wheel gun exercise as "staging the trigger".  Works well and some have a techniques of just touching the finger tip to the opposite side frame as a reference point for the stage.  My finger is too short and that causes the hammer to fall for me.  Good exercise though, but I would then learn to stage through to the hammer drop after the sights resettle onthe target.

Kevin - Why yes they do, but you have to becareful looking for the dot just as you do with the day time laser.  The narrowed field of view has a tendency to increase the hunt then during daytime though.

Mike - You are right that a bedded gun will always out shoot a non bedded.  BUT, if I am getting sub moa with my M24 and it is rugged, as a sniper I could care less about my x count and only go with knocking the guys dick in the dirt.  I will take a "kinda" accurate rugged gun over a bedded accurate more fragile gun anytime.  The field has a tendency to cause things to fail at the worse possible time.  Bedding is just another one of those things that will cause Murphy to come hunting.  Teh new H&S stock with butt extension and cheek adjustments is really nice and the more vertical pistol grip is very comfortable.  I like it.

Ken - You can probably kiss the OICW goodbye.  Too many problems and too much wasted money.  It goes with that POS Land Warrior crap.  Every soldier that works with it comes away hoping no one fields it or it will be a disaster.  When they go back to training marksmanship skills and stop trying ot use technology to fix a training problem then the weapons will go back to being as they should.  As far as having a large organization work the same as a small business, never happen.

As far as the 500 foot drop, the jumpers usually land next to the weapon or dam close to it as they attempt to chase it down.  Especially since it is attached tot he rucksak and the rucksack has their S**t in it.  Luckily we have not had may of these incidences and the last one was a student that pulled one too many releases during decent.  Screwed up his radio, NVDs and his weapon was actully still zeroed according to his boresight.  Nothing broken but he did not want to fire it for score and used his partners weapon.  chicken.  :-)

Oh well enough time spent on my rambling, 10 mph winds, nice easy call with the 175 gr.  Use the moa of the range in hundreds, will get you on target out ot about 800 meters then you need to add one moa to the mix to stay on.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 03:20:37 (ZULU)


MARKWELL: Tell her that was very nice. I liked it.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 03:32:14 (ZULU)



Rick: I was reading a Preliminary Unit History from the 3rd ID about the fight for the Baghdad airport. A dismounted Bradley crewman sniped the commander of a T-72 that was about to fire its main gun at them, dropping him into the turret and ending the attack. The crewman was using a hunting scope from home taped to his rifle. Aside from good marksmanship training, I think it would be nice if these guys had a bit better equipment. Improvise and adapt will only take one so far...  :-)

I was using my AR-15 carbine with an Aimpoint one day this week, doing Mozambique drills on silhouette targets at about 30 meters. The speed with which I could do that was gratifying. I'd prefer our infantrymen not have to provide their own equipment. And I know I'm preaching to the choir.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:02:14 (ZULU)


Holy cow, Revolver country!

 CDC..The old 25s are indeed nice and ,in auto rim cases ,can be loaded to some pretty steamy velocities considering they are essentially ACPs in capacity.  The Hackathorn holster you mention was designed by Ken Hackathorn, Who was at ASC#2, for Milt Sparks{now deceased} many years ago. It is just one of many, sort of obscure innovations that bear his name and have a following of the knowing. Interestingly enough, even though Ken is the consumate 1911 guy, he has a weakness for S&W model 10s of all things; much like my own for S&W Kit Guns.  We laugh about it often.

 Current favorite S&W is a 5" Model 29 in a 1942 tanker holster by ElPaso!

 Hope you all like Helens' poem..

outa here

Markwell Email this member See this member's profile
The soggy Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:08:23 (ZULU)


Rick;' right on staging the trigger. I didn't mean to imply that one would not go ahead and fire the gun. When I was really into this stuff I would take a 6 shot revolver and fire every other cylinder passing every other one. It was circus perhaps if you want to think so. But it's hard to do in about 5 seconds or less.

That particular trick is hard with a Colt Python due to the fact that the spring stacks just before it lets go where the smith stacks then gets lighter.

Dan' I think we might have a point of agreement on the 625. Wonderful weapon with the moonies. The ole 25's were nice and a lot had the Eliason sights I like so much. I knew a UPS man who could load the moon clips and fire right with a 1911 shooter of pretty fair ability. I still know him matter of fact...I hate it when that happens.

I've not known a N frame to misfire so I too suspect some kind of problem with the conversion but have no idea what it could be.

It's also true that the N frame outlasts the Model 19 but....I ain't never saying again that a piece is slow. I got in a lot of trouble with that one once. It's not any slower to fire and may even be faster due to the weight. It's the first shot that might be an instant quicker.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:13:34 (ZULU)


Attention All Gas Gunners, Mr. & Mrs.  America and all ships at sea!!!

We have finally done it, 34mm Schmidt & Bender scope rings made just for the AR style rifles.

They are 1.275” tall and fit AR-10’s and SR-25 based rifles perfectly, they will work on AR-15’s for most people, its just a matter of how big your head is, no pun intended! Well… maybe.

They are made form 7075 T6 Aluminum alloy and are made as matched pairs as are all our rings, the finish is hard coat matte black anodizing. They are in stock and ready for shipment.

Think about it, alloy gun, alloy scope, alloy rings, its just right.

Thank you for your continued support.

Marty

Badger Ordnance

Marty Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:13:53 (ZULU)


Chris,

Mercury reducer installation in a McMillan stock is no big deal.

When ever possible, install it in the forearm, the weight forward, helps muzzle climb and increasing the mass in the butt causes excessive stress on the stock through the action area (the weakest point of the stock).

Have installed many of these.

Marty

Badger Ordnance

Marty Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:25:10 (ZULU)


Howdy,

Hey guys Thanks for all of the help on my stealth problem, I talked to my friend who's a smith, and he said he'd find me a set of hex/torx action screws for it.  I think it was the fact that the screws weren't torked to the same setting.  

Winchester screws suck!!  I called them to send me some Torx scews, they sent me phillips heads, called told them they sent the wrong ones, they sent me another of the same scews.  Is it me or am I using the wrong Torx bits??

I was considering building a 6.5 cal rifle.  I was told that a 6.5x55AI is a good round??  I was also considering a 260, 6.5-06 and the fagmag....  

I was wondering about the barrel life, accuracy and velocities of these rounds.  

I know that the fagmag has been beaten to death, but I would appreciate any e-mails, or posts.  

This rifle will be used for long range target, and hunting purposes.  

Thanks and Gig'em

Mayhem

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:25:30 (ZULU)


Well John,

I have to admit that I resemble some of that.... I do like it though.

I want to take some time to thank you, Rod, Brock, and everyone else that made ASC#2 what it was....I had a great time and will plan to attend if it is on again next year. I will be better prepared next time around... I'll be chewing on my own ass for not finishing for quite some time........

Oh, and I hope all you hogs out there that went to ASC#2 (whether you completed it or not) write a few thank you letters to the "sponsors" the furnished the three foot high pile of stuff on that table!!!!

Steve~Hockeyref Email this member See this member's profile
Finally dried out, I ain't shot a match yet this year that I stayed dry!, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:31:35 (ZULU)


BRogers, CDC....

By Gawd I'm a peace-maker!!!! Kum....baaaa....yaahhhhhh...;)))))))))))  

Mebbe not.

Anyway, so I'm figgering after I get the Browning paid for this weekend (I'm pretty resigned to the fact that I'm comin home tomorrow with a HP), I'll next look for a 'Smith.  I'm now (thanks to you guys) looking at a 27, 625 or 686.  The 686 is my last choice and it's a tie between the 625 and the 27.  Initially I thought, "why the hell would anyone want a revolver in .45 ACP.." however there's just something about 'em......  

BUT, what are your opinions on the new S&W lock thingie?  Do they have any adverse effect on accuracy/reliability etc?

Thanks,

Rich

Rich S. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:47:28 (ZULU)


Gents

Opinions please.......

I have a chance at a SSG69, w/6x Zeiss BDC set up, approx 98%.

I am aware of some of the shortcomings( mags/stock/barrel/double set tgr/700 yard max range w/ this scope( I think) of this rig, pls advise what one is worth in this condition, or if it's even worth pursuing.

Thanks

Two

Glockamolie Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 04:50:58 (ZULU)


Mayhem

If your bud locates Torx screws for the Stealth, please see if he can dig up a second set.  Would sure like to replace the square-socket screws with Torx.  Will pay anything reasonable.  Pls let me know.

Thanks

Mike

BMG Mike Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 05:08:10 (ZULU)


Gents,

Quick post...

Seems to be lots of interest in revolvers. My current working woods gun is a Colt Anaconda 4" .44 Mag. Love it...VERY good quality.

Use it in a Bianchi 5L holster with HKS speed loaders.

Other choice would be an N-frame Smith .41 Mag, .44 Mag, or M-25 in .45 Colt. Also, 625 in a 4" or 5" barrel. LOT'S of good choices.

Pete, Europe is not in the cards for a year or two, at least. Will talk to my hunting partner...you never know...

Gardner .338 Lapua is enroute to me. Any words of wisdom to a shooter new to this caliber? What about specialty rounds for it?

It mounts a 16X MK 4 Luppie.

All for now...my best to all.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 05:18:00 (ZULU)


Wes.  Advice re: the .338?  Osteobiflex will help:-)

The M24 v M40 thing is more than which is more accurate, its the system you are working with.  M24 is more user friendly and like I said before I've been through schools as a student with them both, shot them both in competitions, taught with them as an instructor, seen them work side by side in a course etc.  Yes I've had to sand the barrel channel on an M24 more than once but that takes a "C" battery, a piece of sandpaper and about 5 minutes to fix.  Of course with an M40 that would land ya in Leavenworth.

Like Rick said, the M24 is accurate enough, which is pretty fricking accurate.  With M118LR we were getting .5 moa out of ours in Little Rock and with Canadian issue Norma Match we used in Canadian Matches they were sweet.  

The M40A_ is, by a hair, the most accurate sniper rifle in the US military, the M24 is the best SWS in the US military.

Gooch

8541/B4

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 06:18:24 (ZULU)


FIRST POST!

I read all of the archives and the consistent theme through all of the archives is not to ask ANY gun or shooting related questions or you will get slammed, LOL.

On the Ruger vs. S&W mid-frame revolver issue I have some experience.  I started out carrying a Ruger Speed-six as my first issue weapon.  My department at the time issued almost 500 of them.  We switched from S&W Mdl. 15 because it took two full-time range staff to work on them and maintain the inventory.  Keep in mind that the deputies would use their guns for driving nails, jack handles, etc.!  After switching to the Rugers, we had one (1), break during a match in almost 10 years of issue.  All of the range staff from the various LE agencies at the match gathered around my partner's gun and stared in amazement; none of them had ever seen a Ruger break before.  The issue load was 158 gr. LSWCHP and it beat the Smiths to death, even the personally-owned Mdl. 19s many deputies carried.

I love my Mdl. 19 and I lust after a checkered top strap Mdl. 27, but if the SHTF, the Ruger will be in my hand over any Smith.  The GP-100 is even stronger.

Blackdog Email this member See this member's profile
S. San Francisco, CA, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 07:01:33 (ZULU)


Marty forgot to mention one more product that Badger is now producing; a Badger base for the AI rifles! The rifle needs to be drilled for the base and this is a task that is best left to the pros. (the AI receivers are hard as hell) I have picatinney bases on both my AWP and AWM and I am now a happy guy.

Brogers/CDC I also enjoy the .45 acp revolvers, I own a S&W 25, a S&W 1917, and Colt New Service all in .45 ACP.  

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
CA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 07:11:53 (ZULU)


I ditched the Leupold base on my Rem. VS and bought steel Weaver type bases.  Does anyone have any recommendation on steel rings for less than $100.  Scope is a 6x M-8 Leupold target.  Messages off the board are fine.  Thanks.

P. M. Hayden Email this member See this member's profile
USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 07:46:17 (ZULU)


Hockyref,

My thank yous already went out as an e-mail on Monday and two letters on Wednesday. It's the least I could do for Rod and John for all they did for us at ASC#2. I'm finally all clean and dry myself. ;)

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 12:01:50 (ZULU)


We waited a year for the time to return.

So we could go back and apply what we’d learned.

The Rocks aren’t near we drove half a day.

We drove through the rain and at Yokum’s we stayed.

In the morning the forecast had promised some sun.

So we packed up our Gortex and picked up our guns.

We met up at Rod’s place just over the creek.

The grey foggy sky continued to leak.

We rode up the mountain in the back of a truck.

Just as we got there we ran out of luck.

The rain came down as if poured from a bucket.

I said to my boy, “We won’t melt so just f#%k it.”

We shot and we walked and enjoyed the grey day.

We weren’t going to let this time get away.

I hit some and missed some and watched my friends shoot.

I ate snacks from my pack and dreamed of the night’s loot.

We gathered that night with beef in our fist.

Ready to eat and read the prize list.

After chow we sat round and watched the prizes pile up.

The drawing began and I ran out of luck.

No rifle, no pistol, no starlight nor scope.

She kept pulling tickets and I just couldn’t cope.

I’ll stay out of Vegas.  I can’t seem to win.

I sat and watched others leave the table with grins.

The morning arrived with the pounding of rain.

Andy and I were still glad that we came.

We went prone in the mud and continued to try.

The rain and the clouds still filling the sky.

We took the shot from the Powder House mow.

We hit the target we don’t know how.

Returning to the pasture line the targets were gone.

A cloud had come in and the distance was long.

I looked at Andy and he looked at me.

The water ran off us like a cow taking a pee.

I mentioned to Rod that it had been a great lark.

But we’d like to get home before it got dark.

So we packed up our shit and started driving away.

The shots of our friends still echoed that day.

We were sad to be leaving and without saying goodbye.

But they were all wet and we were quite dry.

Maybe we lack toughness or training or grit.

But as for Team Mussack we’d had enough of that shit.

It’s better to be warm and dry and cozy.

Than to have rain dripping off the end of your nosey.

Next year will come and the weather will be

Whatever it, is it’s not up to me.

If it’s raining and foggy we’ll probably be there.

Or seated next to ‘lito in a lazyboy chair.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 13:39:55 (ZULU)


Gooch  Advice re: the .338?  Osteobiflex will help:-)

I know Gooch you've seen guys after two days of shooting .308 who say they need it.  If you going to spend the big $$$ for a 338 then buckup and shoot it.  Or sell the rifle to someone who will. 338 is a great cal. for shooting longrange.  Its devestatiag on woodchucks and red squirrels.  (HE HE)  Yes it does kick alot.  And your groups ten to open up some after shooting 160 rds. a day.  But its a big rifle and a lot of power.  If you need something to nock down a large target at 1200 to 1800 yds it will do it.  Shooting it in F-class at 1000 yds will just unnerve the shooter's next to you.

LeMay OUT

LeMay Email this member See this member's profile
MI, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 13:52:31 (ZULU)



***POETRYCOUNTRY***  :)

drmarc

PS: I love this place.....

drmarc Email this member See this member's profile
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 14:02:52 (ZULU)


'Lito,

You got mail.  No attatchments.

Rich

RichS Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 14:04:02 (ZULU)


Hmmmm, nice government you got there. You just don't know who your friends are anymore...

http://www.eet.com/sys/news/OEG20030522S0050

Mark D

Mark D Email this member See this member's profile
London, Uk - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 14:31:01 (ZULU)


Rich S.:  I'd definitely go the 25/625.  In fact, I did.  I really prefer the loading and manipulation drill to that of any .357.  The tac-load is the same, but the speed-load is easier for two reasons.  One is the full-moons.  The other is the size of the rounds.  Its harder to hit all six chambers at once with those skinny little .357 rounds.

I don't know about the lawyer designed trigger lock on the new Smiths.  And that whole thing is stupid.  If you want to lock a revolver, just open the cylinder and clamp a big padlock through the top strap.

Mike S:  My grandfather carried an original 1917 for about 40 years.  I loved that old gun.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 14:36:20 (ZULU)


Stealth modifications:

BMG Mike, My Stealth is currently at the Dr. (Gardner) right now.  Compared to my other guns, I did not like the factory trigger pull, so that was adjusted first.  After the first time I took it down (with a phillips bit) I realized that I did not care for the three piece (three screws) floor metal. So that is being replaced with a Williams.  I also asked for the screws to be replaced with hex heads.  Gardner explained the correct bit to use on the factory screws is a square head.  As posted previously, my safety was all jacked up as well.  The detent has to be tig welded, then filed down properly.  Winchester severly jack knifed that operation... So I'm going to let George fix that one as well.

I have taken the Stealth out to the Badlands and shot out to 1k yds.  Overall it shot pretty well.  Some things to note:  My come ups for 1000yds required 2MOA more out of the factory 26" barrel on my Stealth, than was required on my AICS 5R gun that GA built with a 22" barrel.  That should tell you something right away...

About stocks.  I own both McMillian and HS stocks.  The third variety I have is the AICS.  Given a choice for general range shooting, I'll take the AICS stock any day.  I can lay prone behind that thing all dad gumm day.  The down side is the cost and the weight though.  No bedding there to worry about.

Michael Roberts Email this member See this member's profile
MidMO, MO, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 14:48:48 (ZULU)


Any of you guys at ASC#2 notice that Rod and John didn't seem to need raingear or extra layers?  I guess they grow them pretty tough down in Seneca Rocks, WV.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 15:08:39 (ZULU)


Markwell,

My compliments to Helen!

If she couldn't feel the Mildot Master under those conditions, tell her I can make her one out of 3/8 plywood, 2 feet by 3 feet.

Advantages:

Easier to manipulate under adverse conditions; can be read without glasses.

Disadvantages:

Expensive; heavy; makes your spotter cranky.

Glad to hear the match went well!

Rick,

Death of OICW and Land Warrior would be "A Good Thing," to quote Martha. Marksmanship training? What a novel and innovative concept!

Bruce N. Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 15:18:03 (ZULU)


A reporter who was embeddeded with the 101st "Thunder Chickens" reflects on what he saw.  These good young men reflect the very best of America.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-lacey052303.asp

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 15:34:20 (ZULU)


Gentlemen,

I'm in the middle of a two week stay in Germany.  Formerly East Germany.  My first trip to Europe, and it's certainly interesting.  The people are wonderful, gracious, and humored by my vain attempt at spechen de deutsche.

My brother-in-law left here two weeks ago.  He was in Iraq, maintaining heavy equipment (like tanks), or some such task, and tore an ACL.  He is now in the US, getting it fixed.  He loves Germany, the people, and, of course, the beer.

I think the people here, unlike Mark D. in London, understand that we are not always responsible for what our government say or does, just as he is not responsible for Tony Blair.  Also, with the freedom of press, there are some things that are said that never should make it to print.  And many things that do happen are never available for public scrutiny.  It's a scary world, Mark D.. Get used to it.  Or leave.

The space-war has been under way since Sputnik was launched.  The US and Russia have been fighting this for nearly 5-decades, with no end in sight.  Space-based radar has been a reality for nearly three decades.  Echelon has been around longer, and continues to grow.  There are technologies available that would raise the hair on your neck.  If you choose to stop living because of it, that's your choice.

If you want to see what we are really made of, read the link CDC posted.

Rant mode off.

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 16:34:09 (ZULU)


HAWGS.

I need some info on 338's.

The other day I was at the range and a guy I know was firing a 300WM necked up to 338. He was getting 2875FPS with 300Grn Sierras. I think the barrel was at least 28".

Anyway, I fired it 3 times, shot probably a 1.5" group at 750yds...Probably a fluke... But it gave me some kind VIRUS or something...

All I can think about is getting 338. I have considered the above mentioned cartridge, but I think it is a fluke to get that kind of velocity with a 300gr bullet. He is doing it, but I am not sure if it can be duplicated on another barrel.

What are the pro's and con's of the 338RUM and 338Lap. If you were going to build a rifle, which would you choose. I would really like to get velocity of 2900fps with 300's.

bryan    

bryan Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 17:10:48 (ZULU)



Duman, while I agree with just about everything you wrote in your post (I especially love the german weis-bier, try to get to Coburg in bavaria, order up a bratwurst and local beir, the trip is worth it....mmmmmmm).... I do have a small problem with the whole concept of the American people not being responsible for the actions of their elected representatives...

What you said does not make sense... even if you don't vote, you are still responsible.

Mark D - It sure is a good thing we Americans like you guys, eh? Peace through strength.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 17:16:27 (ZULU)



Duman, you get over near Frankfurt Am Main, let me know, I'll buy you a beer(or you can buy me one).You wil probably fínd that in the east the people are less pascifistic than here in the west, they know what its like to live under enforced rule and communism, i think they appreciate the USA more than the limp dick westies do, there are some conservative right wing good ole boys over there, get yourself a Schweins Haxe and some weitzen beer, and have a real treat.

Wes, you need to hunt Scotland, swap you a week there for a week in the states hunting something, maybe we can get something set up, If any of your hunting buddies are heading this way or Namibia bound tell em to get in touch, i've got some very good contacts in an excellent set up in Namibia. When you finaly decide to visit the home of the malt, then let me know, and we will get the ball rolling.

Lindy, hell we always had to buy our own eqpt if we wanted anything decent, things have changed in that dept though a bit.

Whats this about the US taking up the whole of space, now that would take some effort, me i see no probs in the US developing space projects for military use, if anyone else wants to then they should put thier money where thier mouths are, I'm sure as hell up for a job in allied space command europe if it ever becomes a reality.

Gallileo will , like all ESA missions only be usable for civilian peacefull purposes. And i wouldn't mind a job on it too.

Well its the yearly " Schutzenfest" (shooters festival) here in the village this weekend, so i'll be hanging my Union Jack out the front window to match all the German flags and will be partaking in the sampling of some of the fatherlands finest beers tonight, maybe it will dull the pain in my left leg.

catch ya'll later guys.. Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 17:23:40 (ZULU)



Dunman, I agree we are not responsible for what the Pres does. He is his own man and has more info to make decissions based on knowledge I/we dont have access to. But we should support him becuase he seem honest and just. Unlike Clinton who would do anything for cash and/or a blow job. We stand behind them when they are right and we make jokes we they are totally screwed up. No one needed to make Clinton jokes, he did a fine job of that himself. And they are pronounced RrrruuuRrrrruuuuugers around here. Oh, space it is free to all to enjoy or use as they see fit. But if thier toys break down for unexplained reason it aint my fault. Actually I don't condone breaking other folks toys for playing in a communal sandbox. But thats just my opinion.

I Love Brauts and Bier... I have many relatives there. But I don't abide by the countrys attitude toward the US. My German uncle told me once the Germans are the most destructive reace on the planet. He believed they would try it again. And he said The American's would have to save Europe again. This from a German Soldier of WWII. He said the younger folks don't realize how much they owe to the US and he didn't like that at all.. He said the US has the finest soldiers in the world. Damn it he was right. The next time we should have England keep France. Buy why punish our best ally? My uncle lived in the West.

Peter, How bout Pickled Herring and Onions on a brotchen? Now that a good bier drinking snack.

Casion, you make it home yet?

Off to Work I go.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 18:02:39 (ZULU)



Oh no here we go again, don’t want to start a pie fight over this but let me clarify. Duman, sadly I know only too well that we are not responsible for how our governments behave, particularly the non-elected branches of it. It was the fact that Messer’s Teets and Roche didn’t care that they would be publicly quoted as saying that  basically thay would be removing everyone else’s satellites from space and didn’t care whether we liked it or not, that I found scary. Particularly when they included their long standing allies in the “clean up”. No doubt they will still want to use their air bases and listening stations over here so you’ll have to forgive me if their arrogance ticked me off a little. I’m just glad thay don’t have the final say in this.(I hope! World War 3 anyone?) Maybe I’m coming down with the Sniper country disease and I’m just getting toooo sensitive ;-)

On revolver country. Back in the good old days when we could still have them, I had a S&W586 which was a fine gun, but the love of my life (in the wheel gun department, ‘cause we all know Glocks rule, Joking! ) was a Ruger speed six with 2 and ¾” inch barrel and bobbed hammer. It handled like a dream. Hardly moved under recoil ,with magnum loads, and I could empty it into an IPSC headbox at 7 yards faster than I could with my glock. (Ok Bill, apart from the first shot.) It just got empty too quickly and took a lot longer to reload.

Mark D

Mark D Email this member See this member's profile
London, UK - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 18:12:59 (ZULU)



Sniper Country Rifle Break In:

My son and I are finally taking his raffle riffle (he won the last one)to the range.  Did not come with break in instructions.  Can some one either post or email me George's instructions for the SCLE rifles?

Thanks,

Don

smith934@knology.net

PS: 'Bout time for another raffle ain't it?

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 18:14:26 (ZULU)


Howdy,

Dirty Steve...SIR!

 

Good to see ya back, I lost your phone#, so I couldn't call ya whilst I was in SA.  Next time I'm down we'll have to get together again.  Hopefully my Stealth will be shootin better!!

6.5 Guys

what kind of velosities are you getting out of the 6.5-06?  Anyone know anything about 6.5x55 AI?  velosities?

anyone know what happened to Tacticalstocks.com?  I lloked there for a couple of new stocks, and the only ones I could find were for the C3A1 or something....  Are they out of the Mcmillan stock business?  I even sent an email, and got no response.

well back to tryin to figger out why my guns don't shoot right... must be operator error!!

Thanks and Gig'em

Mayhem

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 18:20:43 (ZULU)


You, gentle reader,  are responsible for the actions of your government.  The fact that you may not accept responsibility does not alter the fact that you ARE responsible.

Innocent civilians have not reached puberty...once you've hit puberty, the best you can do is "not guilty".

Sorry, those are the rules (I didn't write them), get your head out of the sand and look around.

....and they call us Americans naive. sheesh.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 18:27:18 (ZULU)



Mark D:  "You just don't know who your friends are anymore..."

I think it was Palmerson who said, "Britain has no friends, it has interests."

Great Britain can be expected to act in its own best interest.  We will act in ours'.  Our interests will probably continue to be compatable.  Such a relationship is preferable to friendship as our friends routinely screw us.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 18:30:57 (ZULU)


Mayhem

Re Tacticalstocks.com.  I sent them an email once and it took 2 weeks to get a response.

Don

Don Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 19:06:40 (ZULU)


Bryan on the .338 Lapua.  I have one in an M40A4 style rifle with a Mark 4 16 power on it.  It has a 26 inch barrel on it 1:10 twist.  I'm shooting VVN 560 87 gr. in Lapua brass with Fed 215 primers and 300 gr. Sierra MK.  Bullet was loaded to 3.730 inches overall.  And I' getting about 2750 fps. With about 1/2 inch groups at 100yds.  You can pick up about 20 fps per inch if you make the barrel longer.

If you go to the hot links page.  Go to the long range hunting page you can read a lot on the .338 rifles.  If Doc King is around he can help you out a lot.  Doc had a .338 RUM.  But now he is shooting one of George sticks in .338 Lapua.

LeMay OUT

lemay Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 19:13:08 (ZULU)


Chris..

  Tried another load of the VV-560. It went across the screens at 2984fps with a 51-ES. Accuracy was not good again. I haven't shot it with other bullets yet but it doesn't look like my gun likes it.

  My crono was either goofy last night or I have Varget trouble. I had cronographed a load the other night with a new jug and it was 2750 with a 140 in my 260. I checked some I had loaded this winter with the same load out of my old jug and it was 2826fps!! I need to recheck both loads on the same day side by side to see if this is for real. If so this may explain why I am shooting a MOA high or low at 600 on out. Depending on what box I picked up.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 20:38:50 (ZULU)


Mayhem:   I get 2800fps out of my 21" Heavy Hart barrel with 142 MK Moly w/49.1 gr IMR 4350, FED210M, Rem 25-06 cases necked up for 6.5-06.   This is a light load. .3MOA at 100.  24MOA to reach 1000.

TonyY Email this member See this member's profile
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 20:51:05 (ZULU)


Don Smith....incoming e-mail. 2 attachments, page 1 and 2 of Gardners breakin procedure in tif format. (didn't retype, just scanned)

KImbershooter Email this member See this member's profile
Disputanta, Va., USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 21:04:35 (ZULU)


Howdy,

'lito and Tony you have mail  NO ATTACHMENTS!!

Thanks and Gig'em

Mayhem

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 21:46:24 (ZULU)


TonY

Your email bounced twice, so here it is...

Howdy,

TonY what is your barrel expectancy?  I want a 6.5 rifle, but I don't know

which to get.  I handload right now, I'm not great at it, but I'm getting

better.  I'm mostly looking for a longrange hunting/target rifle.  I'm

debating btw 260, 6.5x55AI, 6.5x284, 6.5-06.  what are your thoughts on

these?  How do you like your 6.5-06 how is the recoil, I don't remember..

how does it compare to the 6.5x284?

Thanks and Gig'em

Mayhem

Mayhem Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 21:55:20 (ZULU)


Mussack! ya big softy, I liked it!

Something coming to you via email. Rough draft. Cut it up. Honest critique.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 23, 2003, at 22:49:53 (ZULU)



Would someone please put some sunshine in a container and mail it to me? IIImmmmmmmm mmmmeeeeelllllting!

Model 19's, mine is 27 years old and is still my go to gun. Familiarity and simplicity breed comfort I reckon.

Hope to have a decent range report this weekend. Have to figure out the horizontal stringing thing ASAP. May resort to shooting in inclement weather. Guns will just have to get used to it.

Spoke to Master Cockerham last night and he is still pouring water out of his riffle. Did you guys wear life jackets up there?

Time for you Hawgs to plan for the NC Long Range Regional at Butner. 3 days of sun and fun. Master Cockerham's team and I will be staying at the Holiday Inn I reckon. If anyone else is going shoot me a line. http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/Frames/Frame_Schedule.htm

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 23:10:48 (ZULU)



Howdy guys,

Learned a new phrase today for when you ruin someone's day, work in the line "pinched a loaf in his punch bowl" and watch people's eyebrows lift and contort when they hear that one.

On revolver country, I LOVE S&W N-Frames!   Own 4 of the things currently and I'm searching out 3-4 more to fill out the collection.   Pinned and recessed is where it is at!   The newer stuff with it's hokey safety lock and the MiM parts do not do it for me in the slightest.   I gots to wonder about those MiM parts on the newer guns, not too sure what the metal underneath that heat treating is like with MiM and that makes me wonder about action jobs on the newer guns.   Ohwell, none of my N-frames were made within the last 20 years anyhow.   I love the Model 27s but some claim that they are sensitive to timing issues when used a lot in double action combat type shooting, comes from that BIG heavy cylinder having to rotate and slam around supposedly.   Comparing a 357 bored Model 27 cylinder to a 44-45 bored hole for the Model 25/29s and there is quite a bit more mass there in the Model 27's cylinder.     But typing/thinking outloud I gotta wonder about how the 7-8 shot Model 27s fair in durability and timing issues.    As a purist though I want nothing to do with those non-6shooters.   Somethin don't feel right about banging away 7-8 shots from an N-frame.   Oh, and some of the Bluedot loads with the Model 27 are FUN FUN FUN!  :)    Not sure I would put such loads through smaller than N-framed guns.

Okay, now I'm officially rambling and I'll shut up.

Last bit of news, I got my first paycheck that goes along with my promotion to a line supervisor at work.   I'm one of those UPS shlubs that break all your guys' fragile packages, atleast I used to be!  WHOOHOOO, I'm headed off to Margaritaville for the weekend, 3 day weekend that is!

Hope all you guys have a good weekend!

B. Douglas Email this member See this member's profile
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, May 23, 2003, at 23:39:21 (ZULU)


Hey Guys,

Handgun country.  Well, I just got back from lovely PA.  With a new Browning HP :))))))))).  I've been eyeing 'em up for some time now.  What a beaut.  Next thing is gonna be a wheel gun though, and I really appreciate all the input I've gotten from youse guys.  One of the shops I stopped at had a NICE S&W 27 w/4"? barrel.  white outline rear sight with orange ramp front.  Looked in great shape.  No "etching" around the cylinder etc. The only thing I saw was a sort of "scuff" mark on the end (business end....sort of towards the outside of one of the chambers)of the cylinder.  Now, since I don't know much about wheelguns (let alone what to look for and more importantly what NOT to look for in a used one), I passed on it due to the mark.  They were asking $359.  I may actually call 'em and send 'em a check to hold it.

Also,

Got my LR M3 on my SCLE.  Gotta send the unwanted wheels to Lupita to get the "good ones".  My question is this.....

Is the wheel marked "7.62 175 gr" in yards available?  Does it track the 175 SMK (Black Hills factory) as well as the 30.06 wheel?  I figure maybe I'll send in my .223 wheel and .300 wheel and get 'em both?  Or shouldn't I bother and just get the 30.06 wheel?

Later guys,

Rich

Rich S. Email this member See this member's profile
MD, - Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 00:20:44 (ZULU)


I just got back from Parris Island and attending the graduation of my son.  He became one of the Few and the Proud today!  I could not believe the transformation that has been made in 13 weeks.  His physical appearance is unbeliveable.  He lost 34 pounds and is now lighter than when he finished high school.  He has a tanned face and a proud gleam in his eye!  He admits this is the hardest thing he has ever undertaken!  I can see other changes as well.  His walk and speech just overflow with pride and a sense of having met and compleated something worthwhile and meaningful.  My wife was amazed when we were walking past the Iwo Jima statue at the parade deck and he instantly stopped, faced the flag and rendered the most perfect salute!  Then he continued to walk with us and never lost any of the conversation.  She thought that was the neatest things she had ever seen. It was one of those special moments that you just had to be there to appreciate. I can see the sense of duty, honor and commitment he now has.

Yes, I had tears in my eyes yesterday when he was awarded the Eagle, Globe and Anchor!  I am a very proud Marine's father!  Yes, he did qualify Expert with the M-16!  We now have another shooter in the ranks!

Barron Moreland Email this member See this member's profile
Cayce, SC, USA - Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 00:23:49 (ZULU)


Rich S.,

BUY THE 27!!  Even if it needs a little tweakin', it's a hell of a gun.

Barron,

Congratulations to your new "Devil-Dog"!

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
merced, KA, usa - Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 00:48:09 (ZULU)


Pat,

Sounds like N560 is a bust.  I'm getting 2930fps with 50.2gr of H4350, and it's been shooting pretty good in both rifles. (49gr in the Border) I'll be trying some IMR4350  next week, but I have to settle on a load this Sunday for the State Highpower Champ. Sunday the 1st.  I've got 3/4 lbs of the H4350,, so I figure that's gonna be it.

Getting a 70fps swing lot to lot huh....  That would account for the up/down results you've been having.  Talk about frustrating.  When I finally settle on a powder I'm buying 16 lbs.  That's enough to eat two barrels,, or get me through a season with the fagmag.  I've already went through 1000 142SMK,, and the season is just starting to warm up ;))

Mayhem,

6.5-06 = 6.5x284.  External ballistics are basiclly identical.   The 6.5-06 has cheaper brass, you don't have to modify the feed rails to get it to load from the magwell, and you don't have to bevel the bolt.  If you're serious about this cartdridge, I can put you in touch with a shooter who has 4 of them that "hammer".  

The 6.5x55 and 6.5x55 AI.  If you go Swede, I'd expect about 2800fps from a 142.  A good number, and as fast as some (not many) of the fagmag guys are shooting.  You can go to the AI version and blow out the taper and the shoulder, and get to 2900 maybe,, but now you're into fagmag and  6.5-06 territory,, AND you have to fireform, so I wouldn't expect any better barrel life.

The 260 is shaping up to be a great cartdridge, as is it's older brother,, the 6.5-08.  I watch Frank VanCleave shoot that damn 6.5-08 XTC each weekend and spank all who approach the line ;))  Course,, he would likely win with anything.  Good round, accurate, but a litle light at 1000.  You'd probably get 4000 from a barrel with this or a standard Swede using reasonable powder.

The fagmag's been done,, you know I like it best.  Don't ask me why but more guys like the fagmag over the 6.5-06.  I've seen them both shoot great,, but when you walk the line you see the fagmag over the -06 100:1.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 01:48:03 (ZULU)


Pete L;

  I'll have to see how much a trip over there would cost. I'd love to go. Looks like a pretty long season.

               LATER

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 01:55:40 (ZULU)


Barron: Congratulations to your son, and to you and his mother for raising him - not all have what it takes to be a Marine, and that he does reflects upon you! The transformation you have seen will not fade. Semper Fidelis!

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 02:01:29 (ZULU)


Barron,

Congrats on your son. My mother didn't even recognize me at graduation. I lost almost 30lbs and was standing straighter and prouder. It's a feeling you never forget.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 03:32:40 (ZULU)


I know how you guys feel about the rain. At my basic sniper school, it rained sideways for five, 12 hour days straight.

'Course Gunny Hathcock was there and it coulda been rainin' pure cane syrup or pure shit for all we cared.

We didn't even have to staple our targets, just wallpapered 'em to the backers. he hee  gotta love it ...

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 03:37:07 (ZULU)


Gents,

Barron, congrats to you and your Marine! He joins a long list of those who have served...with distinction.

Pete L., Trip to England/Europe...will hit you off line over the weekend. Am going to try to interest my partner in going. Would like to meet you and frankly the animals in Europe interest me far more than an African Safari.

Chris, Great take on the various 6.5's. I know Boot's is still shooting cleans with his 6.5/08 and he has 6K+ rounds through it...I give barrel life to the 6.5/08 class cartri