May 2000
I,m finally breaking down to the preassure of the 90's, it's time to buy a GPS. Any thoughts, suggestions on a GPS with boundary mapping and MGRS ( military grid reference system ) location capability? So far it looks like the Magellan GPS 420 will be the way to go, all I need plus nautical nav aids for those times when an amphib insertion is needed. Any suggestions from the gang would be helpful
Semper Fi
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 00:25:49 (ZULU) (your host
address: 12.28.201.70)
Pete - We use A191 just like the rest of the boys and girls in the military. It has been declared the only "official" round. Maker is unknown to me, I just shoot the stuff, I don't analyze it. It does shoot nicely in our 300 Win Mags though and is sufficently accurate to bring down anyone who would like to incroach into my space on the battlefield. Sent Gooch data on the round along with base comeups and wind formula constants with an average constant for those without calculator and do not pocess WV toes. (Sorry, Gooch couldn't resist).
Drap Bags - Don't use them, don't recommend them. Use a scope cover and Mike's muzzle cover. You do not need more. The use of a drag bag will get you into trouble as you fight the rifle out of the bag within spittin (200 meters) distance of an observer. If you do it under cover, then you are still crawling with it unprotected. Then after the shot you have find the dam thing. If you don't then they will, and then know where to start for the hunt. If you unbag at the FFP then I can guantee (as several students have found out) that you will be spotted. Again this is the military point of view coming out in me. I hate them and will not use them.
GI Joe - Why in the heck do you want Redfield Palma Sights? They are a disaster. They are the only sight I know of that can become a flying formation of "nuts and bolts" (or tiny screws and smaller ball bearings) in the middle of a match. They are not a tactical sight and why Remington put them into the overall M24 package is beyond me. I would of opted for a simpler Iron sight such as the Lyman. Would it give me the un-needed quarter minute of angle adjustments? No but then I don't need nor want them. It would, however, allow me to engage targets to 600 meters without worrying about which piece will break now. Ask a British Palma Team member why they wear a rubber band around their ties sometime. We are in a constant search to replace the ones we have now at our school. Remington has some but I don't know how many and how long they will last. We have scavenged parts from all our broken ones and we bought a bunch 6 years ago which have now been placed on weapons as replacements for the flying formations.
Max Effective Range - Now there is a subject full of pit falls and problems. The max effective range is that range at which the shooter can reasonable engage a target. Now what is reasonable? The military's first criteria is seeing the sucker. Irong sights versus scope will make a big change. A 308 with iron sights against a soldier in a hole that is camouflaged, range MAYBE 200 to 300 meters. Out in the open with the same system, 400 to 500 meters unless he is running for cover. Add a scope and you now have the max effective range to 800 meters according to the miltary(all though I don't agree with that assessment and think it should be shorter say at 700 meters). That should bring out the "but SEALs make first round head shots at 1000" crowd. Now these are considered first round hits at ranges determined by the shooter through whatever means. HOWEVER, add a shot out barrel and the max effective goes for naught. The max effective range is based on the shooters ability to see the target for engagement with the system he is using AND the system he is using. There are more factors but that about does it. There clear as mud!
Guess I'll shut up now and go back to wishing I had a year off to go around and bug everyone in person. Got to get to the left coast so that I can really bug Mike though.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 00:29:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.196)
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 02:35:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.62)
Have to respectfully disagree....I am not exactly a fan of SWAT teams in custody cases, but not drawing until there is a gun pointed at you is a good way to get killed.
You claim that a gun can be drawn in 1/1000th of a second..Ever try it from a Security-III holster???? There are three motions in the draw of some of those rigs. (release retention straps, free the retention device, then come up)
Conventional wisdom is that if a person is 20 feet away, and armed with a knife or impact weapon, and you had better be moving, and have a plan. The reason is that a person can cover 20 feet in the time you recognize a threat and react. If the weapon bad guy has is a gun, you have ZERO time. A 1/4 inch of trigger travel can happen a TON faster than a draw, everytime.
In a house, on an entry, if you turn a corner, and an armed man is there, you are FINISHED. Rule number one of close combat,you can't out draw a drawn gun. Most LE folks know that seeing a gun, prior to the bad guy having it in play leaves you an advantage, albeit small. Recognizing a gun, when you are staring down the muzzle means you are DEAD if your gun is in leather....
BTW: I agree with Mike's assessment, knock and announce (LE 101 i suppose). Maxing out the ROE prematurely doesn't give much space to maneuver later. But if you have to kick in the door, I don't think I would be the first through it without a weapon in hand.
dan-o
p.s. That wound up longer than I planned....sorry
dan-o <dan.overbey@compaq.net>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 03:37:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.15.80.30)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 04:52:33 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.0.80)
heard a lot of talk on the barrel break in issue, has anyone checked
out
http://www.jarheadtop.com/Kriger%20Barrels.htm
sounds about right to me
catch ya later!!
JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 05:11:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.171)
Mike Miller
-----------
I'm with you about the U.S.Optics scopes,I have three of them and
I'm
so satisfied,they are outstanding.
I also visited their plant in California,Dott. J.Williams (CEO)
was so
nice showing to me any product and every work process in their warehouse.
I strongly reccomend them.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 11:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.11.35.226)
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of , Texas, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 12:20:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 166.72.161.185)
Someone dropped the ball and let this get big (he or she should be fired).... I suggest we all shut up and let it get small again. We pay taxes (in the US) so that our legal system, and our INS agency will handle these issues with the best interest of the country and the child in mind.
If we want to rethink OUR process in place to deal with these issues, lets take a look at the process as a whole and not "case study" this one situation.
In my mind, this is an awful lot like a senior officer micro-managing a subordinate...it becomes over-whelming and is not responsible to the system as a whole....let the $60,000. / year INS guy do his job and let's keep costs below a million per case...please
Who benefits from this stupidity? (lawyers, news-people and politicians) ...who pays? (Children, Law Enforcement Agents and US!)
OK, I'm done.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 12:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 13:00:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.32.221.139)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 14:31:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.70)
Agreed. We were taught to get low and get the heck out of the way. Make any move, but make a move, when looking at a gun. This applies even if you have a weapon drawn, as presenting a full frontal shot while you line up your sights is not a great idea either. I have some SF friends who were taught really cool tactics in these cases, unfortunately they are hard to teach at most LE training facilities.
I also see Mike's point very clearly. Using SWAT tactics everytime law enforcement is needed is a kind of coercion on the citizens of this country (all of us!!) are not going to be happy with.
Mike, did you have any luck tracking down the rodent copying your sling design?
dan-o
dan-o <dan.overbey@compaq.net>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 15:31:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.10.93.13)
Mike,
Point taken but I think the potential for danger was definitely
there and having been on a team I would much rather error on the side of
caution for me and my people as I am sure you would.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 15:52:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
The GPS military "Jitter" is being removed from the Satellite system this weekend, so those little Garmines, and Magellenes, will give you the very same (+/- a few feet) accuracy that the military has been enjoying for decades... about the only thing that C..Cl..Cli Clin... Aw skit, you know who, has done right, in 7+ years.
Pat... would you send me (by e-mail) the web sites you saw that stuff about the Leica on...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 16:19:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.100)
Think I'll go to bed early tonight.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 20:30:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.212)
Glad to have the input on the LBT 3 day assault pack article, even if you feel I gave "A.L.I.C.E. from Hell" a real back burner broiler blast.
I paid more than you, feel I was ripped off, and was under too close a time window to return the goods, or follow rule #1 of pre-test your equipment.....
Heck it makes me real real warm and fuzzy just knowing SOMEBODY other
than Marius reads the IN REVIEW section. Thanks for the input!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 20:58:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.201)
I don't know who you are refering to with this post but I am glad it is not me. :-)
Going back thru the archives, I found a couple of posts that I made on this BDC Stuff. Here is one dated 03/23/99 04:51:49
"I will stand by my data until someone that knows how to read and
count proves me wrong. What I said was that the 175 gr. Sierra at 2600
will track pretty close to this cam. The 175 gr. Sierra at 2675 is not
compatitable. This is not VOO-DOO like barrel vibrations or the
Corolius effect. This is simple math."
It looks from your post, your findings pretty much agree with mine.
In another post, I published a link to a table that I made for the
175 @ 2600 fps in 5 yard increments so one could use it for both yards
and meters. You can find it in the archives 03/23/99 22:00:43
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 21:45:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.42.46)
I was wondering if I double ziplocked one of the GPS units if it would receive signals underwater? I'm a certified diver and was wondering if these things could be reliable underwater for finding your way back to a specific reef or terrain feature that you had marked. Till recently they weren't accurate enough. Now the only worry would be if they can receive and tolerate a couple atmospheres of pressure.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/library/PressReleases.cgi?date=0&briefing=0
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
cowpatty town, Ca, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 22:37:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.1.231)
Rick, do you ever come to Camp Atterbury, In. to train? When I was
doing my SORT training there I met several Army Snipers when we were at
the range. Just wondering.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, IN, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 22:38:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.66)
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 23:01:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.176)
In the application of force we can if needed jump to a higher level. So we may go straight to a MP5 if we believe you to have a pistol etc. The sticky point here is we have to justify why we jumped to a lethal force level. That means I need intel that suggests the principals will resist with significant force, knives, firearms, bats something that could cause great bodily harm. I have seen no intel that even suggests the pricipals in this case would resists with hands let alone weapons, so I see no need for MP5's agaisnt them. Bottom line is this if that fisherman had resisted by not letting go of the child would the agent have shot him? No way. What would the agent do with the MP5 if he had to use control holds? What I am saing here is you dont need to kill a Butterfly with a tank. This was a normal LE function not a Hostage Rescue. I have done many Search/Arrest Warrants and what I saw there was as a High Risk Entry Technique minus flash bangs and in my mind over kill for a six year old and a family that had not committed any charged crime. Christ this thing has pay them in a law suit written all over it.
On take down of the M1A, go down to the local gunshop and have them show you the first time.
BDC's: If yours works great,, but wait until the temp changes 20 degrees up or down and you will be off. Plus the next batch of 175's will be faster or slower. I am seeing them go anywhere from 2650-2720 depending on lot out of my weapons. Currently I am using the BDC for a 180 grain out of a 30-06 for the BDC in my MK4 M3.
Rick, remember they should stay in the boats.LOL
Litto, I have couple of 50's coming next week. I am going to see if that Springfield scope will hold up to that. If it will work with that it will work with most things. I have not had a chance to test it on my medium sniper rifles yet.
Charles, most of the scopes have been tested just a few more to play
with. Lots of good stuff out there
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 23:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.196.29)
Sorry, but they won't work under water. As I recall, they are on 2.4cm wavelength, and that's real short. Many of the civilian GPS units won't even work well under trees. and the military unit has a huge magnetic antenna (huge for 2.4cm), so the vehicles can move about under the tree canopy.
UnDude...
50's... The least you could do, is use your 20mm Lahti ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 23:27:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 00:34:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.181)
Ned
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
Kablooey, MI, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 01:26:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.89.137.47)
Ken
Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 01:59:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.4)
I have a Leica LRF that I received from SWFA. As others have written
earlier, it does have really nice optics, but it seems as if the rangefinding
is a little on the wimpy side. I am not certain what to expect as far as
a $399 eyesafe product is supposed to be, but the longest reading that
I have ever been able to get has been 557 yards. Granted, that was on a
sunny day, but I was trying to get readings off of houses and buildings.
I will bring it along to the ASA class next month in New Mexico and perhaps
I can check it out side by side with other "low" priced range finders.
Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 04:04:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
The way I look at it what they did today got me one step closer to
getting a GPS unit, now if only some of the other little quirks could be
worked out of them. I don't know if these things are gonna evolve any more
though. If I get one it's still gonna have a backup compass just incase
it goes kaput.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 04:52:48 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.185)
Thanks,
-Steve
-Steve <slhoenig@mindspring.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 05:23:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
199.174.216.226)
On another note, I recently got to shoot with Stewart Wilson at a
tactical rifle shoot here in Bakersfield Ca. It was a fun match that consisted
of 4 stages where the AR15 ruled the course. I'm gonna be giving him a
call soon enough about that 6.5mm08 AR10 I'm interested in having built.
I've seen what he does with the AR10 and he has some very nice custom touches
he does on these guns. I'm extremely interested in the fact that he uses
top notch barrels, Armalite has let a few turds for barrels out of their
shop in the past.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 06:29:50 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.185)
http://www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/rangegame.html
or click here
Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 06:34:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.36.35.69)
I got so caught up seeing that this guy does custom chamberings for
the AR10 and not to mention the fact that I have met this fellow that I
almost wet myself. What's more is he's in my state and close by.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 06:35:06 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.185)
.........never mind.That's OK.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 09:15:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
151.2.122.249)
http://www.swarovskioptik.com/nf/us/start.htm
On the Cuba thing...Just another example of the lack of respect for
our rights by the Clinton regime. It may have been "legal" but was it right?
"Right" doesn't come into the picture with Wild Bill.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 10:13:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.166)
Has anyone tried the Aguila SSS round? There was an interesting write up on it in this month's Tactical Shooter. I have heard that the bullet won't stabilize in the 1-14 or 1-16 twist found in most .22LR. What about an AR conversion? My AR has a 1/9 twist but I do not have any experience with the 22 conversion units.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God bless TX, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 19:58:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.180.4.190)
Hue, living in almost the closest residence to the airport: "After
the Americans left, there were piles of rifles left behind outside my house
in the streets. Piles higher than a man, hundreds, thousands of M16 rifles.
You could pick one up, pull the trigger, and thk-thk-thk-thk-thk-thk-thk!
It was crazy!"
C.Ross <tplife@tns.net>
San Diego, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 20:18:06 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.182.177.3)
A friend of mine shot a goodly number of them through his 18 1/2" Ruger 10/22 the other day. He reports good accruracy on the horizontal axis but a lot of dispersion verticaly. To be more specific, it shot a group about 1/2" wide and 1.5" verticaly at 35 yards. Chronograph data revealed considerable variance in velocity from shot to shot, with an extreem spread of almost 100 fps, which may well account for the vertical stringing. Weighing a sample of the cartriges found that they varied pretty badly, with about %60 clustering tightly around one weight the rest falling into two loose groups that ran considerably lighter. The next step will be to test weight segregated ammo and see if that makes a difference ( we suspect it will). Reliablity of feed, extreaction and ejection was flawless, function brisk. Why TS chose to test them in so specialized an arm is beyond me. My buddy was a bit dissapointed but still has hope that they will prove useful.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 20:53:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 01:51:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Lets hear it for MCRDU at San Diego and it's sister school MCRDU at PI! Didn't get no ring there just an eagle, globe and anchor.
(That should start a cool, totally non-shooting thread huh?)
Gooch dives for cover!!!
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:06:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.171)
Is there any sight with the NM rules so I don't look like such an idiot next time I mosey on south?
Saw a neat laser (Teleranger) in a gunshop on the way to the shoot,
but it was to pricey for a used unit and no mount attachment for a tripod.
I am still looking for a new spotter/observer scope to replace an
aging once issued spacemaster (hey it still works)- anyone know of one
that has a built in laser?
Has anyone been able to find a way of etching mildots into a lens
so they multiply with the magnification in a variable zoom? (so your mils
stay the same)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:06:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.142.170)
" Among all the honors, among all the postings, Promotions, Medals that have been awarded me, the one in which I take most pride is to be able to say - " I am a Marine."
Gen. John a. Lejune, USMC
13th commandant
Forget ducking for cover Gooch, call in the fast movers!
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:39:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.145)
I think that the reticle has to be placed in the rear lens of the scope. Give US optics a call, they add a glass etched reticle on to the MK4 scopes along with changing the power, they could probably answer that for ya'
Kush out
k <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:44:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.145)
Thanks!!
M.K.
M. Kessler <mkessler@altavista.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 05:24:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.17.58.22)
Jeeze guys. Yo' college fellaz kin hammer on etch other an' one of
us unwarshed types chimes in an' gits a hard time via varmintal email,
ah reckon. Lighten up please! Mah feeble, unejoocayted brain kin't han'le
it. Out hyar.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 10:47:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.168)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 11:59:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.245.243.87)
Gooch you leave yourself open! As an army man I must ask, "Why can't you call a Marine a Jarhead?" Because a jar denotes a useful item that you can use by putting something inside. Uh Oh, me thinks that should get some dander up. :-)
Running for cover at this time. And I gave Gooch my dam coordinates.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 14:26:13 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.187)
Microphone systems for detecting gunshots are fairly simple. I saw a year or two ago where some neighborhoods in California (big surprise) were getting wired with a simple microphone net on a (I think) 1/4 mile or 1/2 mile grid. By simply timing when the noise reaches succesive microphones and some simple trig (cosine! cosine!), the position of the shooter is located to within ten or twenty yards.
Also, the noise signature of each caliber is slightly different, so some computerized matching may be possible. This would only work with handguns and widely differing rifles - you can hear the difference between a 45 and 9mm and a 7.62 and 5.56mm, but not the difference between an '06 and 308.
What do you call an Aggie five years after graduation? Boss!
Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 16:02:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.148.151)
Really thought don't you think these tools are getting silly! -lasers,gps
etc. are just an excuse not to do the work yourself they make YOU LAZY!
and our good friend Murphy likes that!!! Call me a luddite but I still
swear by a map and compass, and use my mil-dots to range. IF you have the
rest use them as a back up ONE YOU'VE DONE IT MANUALLY!!!!! Humans make
errors sure as SH*T but Do You Really Want To TRUST YOUR LIFE TO A MACHINE!!!
KISS - KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - True North formerly Strong and Free - but that was offensive
to some - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 16:41:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.134.3)
Shooter:
AR conversion with the Aguila SSS round sounds like a good idea.
But if you are looking for true subsonic ammo might try their new Colibri
line. Supposed to be 20 grains and a muzzle velocity of only 375 fps.
Most decent pellet rifles fire faster than that.
Just a thought.
Jon <bigbadjon@tamu.edu>
Aggieland, God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 20:14:13
(ZULU) (your host address: 128.194.52.223)
In three AR 15 clones (1:9 twists) in my clan, each with a conversion
kit, all FUNCTION with just about any 22LR (36-40 grain) ammunition, but
accuracy is pretty unimpressive. Good enough for beer cans (empty) but
not what we get from just about any other rimfire rifle. The bores on the
CF are a few thousandths oversize--I forget the actuals. The 60 grainers
might upset to fill the bore better or maybe the short slugs are overspinning.
Would be interesting to test both side by side. If I see the Augies (Not
AGGIES!!!)available, I will shoot a few for comparison. Are these readily
available now?
Paul <paul_f_mickey@ameren.com>
Spfld, IL, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 21:07:07 (ZULU) (your host
address: 198.51.215.235)
Gooch
Class of '77
MCRDSD
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 22:14:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.139)
Jimmy @ TAMU. Did you get any straight answers on stock painting?
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or., USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 00:02:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.255.10.85)
Jarhead...!? I'm part of the 'Parent' company, my BROTHER's a JarHead...
How can you tell if an Aggie's been using your pc...? "White-out" all over the screen...
Nope, nothing new, just SOS.
Larry
Larry (USN) Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 01:39:23
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.136.124)
Sound familiar? HAH!
Spud,
Semper-Fi,
Out
PS Will see you Mudville soggys on Sun!
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 02:53:14
(ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.85)
New daughter is going through clothes so fast that I'm tapping into my "guns and gear budget" (BIG OLE GULP). So, before It evaporates completely, I have been needing to do some tweaks to my Rem. There is a smith up here by the name of Arnold Arms (based in Arlington, WA). Has anyone, particularly those from the NW, dealt with or have tested their products? We have a couple of smiths in the Seattle Metro I could go to for the work but their turn-around time is 4-6 months (past the one month of dry season around here). Arnold promises a faster turn-around with the Rem.
Any advice greatly appreciated. As for the new one, ah well, at least I am getting some range time again!
Thanks all!
Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 02:55:15 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.39.130.53)
The British Army use a marksmanship training system operating along similar lines (microphones though, not radar). The microphones are situated in a baseline along the butts (fixed targets only, no ETR's or movers), and detect fall of shot - even if you miss the target itself. There is also a remote monitor you can take out onto the firing point with a screen to show you your POI. I use the system fairly regularly out to 600, and it seems to work well.
Dom
Dom <LethbridgeDP@cf.ac.uk>
Cardiff, UK - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 07:39:40 (ZULU) (your host
address: 131.251.0.8)
All - don't open any email messages with the text "I LOVE YOU" in the heading. There is a world-wide email virus currently in circulation.... even if the mail is from someone that you know. That person's computer might be infected - which means that if they use address books- the virus will replicate itself using their address book - which will make the message look familiar to you...
The trick is to simply DO NOT OPEN THE ATTACHMENT. That is where the malicious code is present. Just simply delete the message.
Sorry for the off-topic post - but - man some F***G A***LE is at it again....
ken :)
Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 14:42:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
I know of a couple of smiths in the Seattle area who perform "follow-on"
work on rifles modified by Arnold Arms. I personally have no experience
with Arnold but "buyer beware." You might check Jim Cloward (206) 632-2072.
I've always experienced quick turnaround and of course excellent work.
Curious George <cg@ibm.net>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 17:53:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.13.226.13)
"Navy SEAL Charged With Munitions Theft"
Forgive me for not knowing how to do an in text url link, do a cut and paste or click on my name to go to the link.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59455-2000May3.html
B.
Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
RoadApple, Ca, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 18:31:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 136.168.216.69)
For anyone who may be interested, I was able to track down the info
on the National Target Company. The address is: 4690 Wyaconda Road, Rockville,
MN 20847-2152 1-800-827-7060 or 301-770-7060
Jon A. Custis <custisja@navair.navy.mil>
Orlando, FL, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 18:52:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 192.44.253.14)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 20:48:20 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.5.111)
Try Iron Brigade Armory - http://www.ironbrigadearmory.com
Ken
Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 21:02:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
Dam Gooch no come back on the jarhead thingy or did you just consider the source?
Anyone want an Aggie anti-tank bayonet? Only used once.
Someone has to bite!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 22:03:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.178)
Thanks Steve
Steve <Dzuppi@aol.com>
Wayne, NJ, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 22:26:24 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.206.191)
Thinking of having one made up to run the Berger Moly 37gr VLD bullets,thru
a 1-6 twist barrel,anyone one have experience with this, good or bad?
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 23:25:21 (ZULU) (your host
address: 203.97.45.207)
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net >
USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 23:39:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.177.19.64)
In the book titled "Dead On" they use paper towels torn to the size
required - instead of cloth patches.
Haven't tried this myself - but if you think about it - it might
be a decent idea. Some paper towel types are reasonably strong.
Ken :)
Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 01:20:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.4)
I concur with Sir Boucher on the flash hiders. Without anything on the muzzle, the blast tends to go straight forward, spreading out as you go. The flash suppressor launches the blast at various directions at about 90 deg from the bore (depending on the design). The problem with this is that as a sniper I can deal with the straight ahead blast better than the lateral/longitudinal (can I use those words here?) blasts that a muzzle break/flash suppressor launches. A perfect example is the blast pattern set off by most .50's. Stick the barrel into a bush so that the muzzle is flush with the opposite side of the bush. Fire a round with the break on. You have just defoliated the bush. Take the brake off and do the same thing in another bush. After you have the buttstock surgically removed from your shoulder you will notice that the bush is largley undesturbed except for veg knocked loose from the concussion.
I have observed live fire from the receiving end from 7.62 at around 300 yards from a 26" non-flash suppresed barrel and there is little or no flash visible. Same thing from the side. There is a small blue flame from most sane 7.62 loads.
Most snipers that I know don't want the flash supressor for the blast problem moreso than the flash issue.
Barrel break in!! We just beat this horse to death a coupe of weeks ago. Based on personal exp and opinions of some others who know more than I do, I'm of the belief that none is required for most factory/custom rifles with anything other than a made in Tijuana barrel.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 01:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.167)
Dave etc. Someone ask Recon Econ when the liberation is? where getting
frustrated up here! LOL :)
You can get further with a kind word and a gun, than just a kind
word - Al Capone
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 04:49:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.142.109)
www.precisionshooting.com
It has the respected opinions of such men as
Harold Vaughn
Jim Borden
Dan Lilja
Kevin Thomas
The comments of Kevin Thomas are especially worth reading as he is
a genuine DATP. (just like me!)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 09:25:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.194)
Nice logical commentary on the flash hider/muzzle brake issue from the downrange perspective, no less! I take it that the cartridges used were military type rounds with the flash suppressant additives to the powder?
How does the OEM civvie stuff like Federal, Remington, W-W, compare to it?
Jerry Rice{the gunsmith one},
Maybe you and Mikey (Un-Dude) could get some night pix of the Nighthawk
and OEM flashes with say Federal .308 and .300WM and it could be posted
on S/C?
My 100 cents on the radar/microphone thang- If you have been doing your job, pre-op setting up and observing, wouldn't you either pop'em (or that fancy equipment) during their set up, or simply vanish into the undergrowth like Sarge will be doing when Mrs. Sarge finds out about his new scope............. ;-)
peteR ducks back into the Spiderhole awaiting Incoming
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 10:59:55 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.201.193)
I'm signed up for the 50 bmg fun shoot May near DIA and am really
looking forward to it. See you there with my M82A1!
AM
Animal Mother <stude59@uswest.net>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 12:33:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 162.18.75.75)
i found a pretty good load for my .308. i was using some generic
168gr BTHPs i found in a bag at a gun show. i set them in freshly trimmed
cases (2.01")on top of 44gr of Varget(not an overly HOT load) to an OAL
of 2.8". i did get two sub-1/2 min groups, i expect the rest of my groups
to do this with practice.
-yes, i still flinch, when i don't control it
anyway, i ran out of bullets and bought the only box of 30cal 168
gr BTHPs my dealer had, S(s?)peer gold mathces. they're .032" shorter than
the other bag i had. the "generic" bulletes measure 1.232"- sound like
anything anyone's ever shot?
so, to load closest to what i was shooting monday do i seat for
a shorter OAL or do i maintain OAL and increase case capacity? my OAL is
arbitrarily based on a few different Remington factory rounds. my seating
die isn't mic.ed so the only way i have to figure seating depth is to subtract
my OAL from the combined length of the bullet and case.
how does one find the best OAL for their chamber?
strung out and dis-jointedly yours
kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 14:50:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.72)
You can probably run them out to an overall length of 2.825", ( with a factory Remington chamber. The powder charge that you are using can also be very effective with the Sierra 155gr Palma and 175gr Match Kings.
Praise be to Varget!!!
Chao
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 15:46:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.201.191)
The .300RUM is a LARGE cartridge and needs LOTSA powder to run smoothly. If you drop powder charges down, the powder column inside the cartridge is going to get "funkified" and you probably will end up with erratic velocities.
You will see QUITE a bit more on this particular subject later, TRUST
ME..............
Cha(Ouch)
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big Cannon coming City, By-Gawd, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 16:34:00
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.184)
The best LSD is of course a suppressor,if they are hard to get(restricted) the suppressor with ports in the outer casing like the one Jerry Rice makes,would be the logical way to go.Or use a layer of bush between you and the target,NZ snipers were told to use 2 layers,however as they had to shoot at night during course,and did not want to get caught by instructors,they decided to bump it up to 3 layers that they would cut a shooting hole in to insure no firing signature.
Just as an aside,a while ago shot a .308 w/suppressor just after last light,from 6 feet to the side all I could see was a small 1 inche blue flame,pulled the can of and shot again very large fire ball,however this was at close range and from a short 19 inche barrel,not very scientific.
Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 22:33:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
203.97.45.199)
Ghillie monster suit is ordered from the guy in FayetteNam. Will do a review of it when it comes next week. If it is good as the one he had at the weapons of mass destruction show last year, it will be nice.
Sign up now dudes, the sheepies are a waiting.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 23:28:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.191.207)
Thanks,
Steve
Steve Starksspear <starksspear@plateautel.net>
NM, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 23:47:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.167.164.191)
In regard to visual range estimation, you have the mil-dot ranging system that has been that is a good optics based method. For Arty & Mortars, you can grab a compass, a map and a calculator and use parallax. Or you can eyeball it, but that takes practice, practice, practice!
Semper Fi
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 00:41:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.73)
Pete - Have not done a check with the civie stuff. The problem is really a heat signature problem that causes the flare with the military stuff. I would imagine that the civie stuff would be worse, but that is a wild a**ed guess and NOT an educated statement.
Kevin - I would love to have Mike get Jerry's stuff and shoot it from the down range perspective, both for visual and heat signature.
A couple of other clarifications, possibly. The M14/M1A has a muzzle break not a flash hider. The cage, as with the M16/AR15, was closed at the bottom and open aross the top. This was to lessen muzzle climb during firing of the weapon. These suckers give off a tremendous blast of heat and will disturb foliage for yards around you. The original flash hiders were conical devices placed on the muzzle to protect the shooter' eyes during extended night engagements. This is as in charging hordes of crazed bushito learned Japanese during the island wars. You could lose your night vision and when the infiltrations began you could not see for awhile. It was not to protect you from enemy detection.
As Chris from NZ states, your best protection against flash signature is getting stand off and using layers of bush between you and the target. Take advantage of the trajectory of the bullet and let the bullet fly unimpeded over the trash you just sighted through. As we tell our students, stand off, stand off, stand off. Or as Chris stated layer, layer, layer!
Muzzle - We teach several techniques of estimating distance by eye and ALL of them require practice, practice, practice. The biggest key though is to write down your first impression of the range. If you go that is 450, no 350, well maybe 600, uhhhhhh 525. You will never learn. The old football field method is probably the WORSE method though. Want an example of why? Look at the telephone poles on the road and see how they get closer together as they get farther away. Now go to a range and look at the 500 yard line from the 600 yard line. That is 100 yards. Now try to superimpose that distance down the range and estimate where you think the 200 yard line should be located. Opps thats the target berm! While the mind sees compression in perspective, it just does a crap job of putting it in practice on the ground. Go look at common objects at different ranges and see how they should appear. Practice, and when you see a man at 500 you will go hey he's at 500 yards!
Gooch!! - If you remove the muzzle break from a 50 you don't need to have it surgically removed from your should but the bruise will run from just below the ear to just above the belt line. Been there, done that, got taht t shirt. Now THAT is stupid!!! Sabot had taken off the break and I wanted to see what would happen if fired with the break off the weapon since it had just went down range. And still no Army comments!
Where are the Aggies?!!! I can't get anyone going this week! Oh well have fun guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 02:09:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.204)
I had a few experiences with some of the 'old guys' during the hunt,
they would slip and maybe get a little snow packed around the bolt area...what
can I bring with me to get a rifle back into the hunt? This happened several
times; now these are experienced, proficient hunters but every now and
then everybody slips or trips and falls. Short of packing a full cleaning
kit in my ruck, what works best?
Thanks
Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 03:01:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.36.35.69)
Naked eye techniques are listed in the Army FM 23-10 which you can access online here.
www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-10/toc.htm
Out here
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 11:46:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.185)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 13:53:01 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.102.29)
See, you got one of them thar Aggies stirred up! And I don't need no stinkin' anti-tank bayonet. You know the difference between the boyscouts and the Army? Boyscouts don't have artillery! ;-) You asked for it!
And to let you guys know that I'm not some oddball, there's a movement
here where the American flags are being flown upside down to let "the media"
know that we're in protest of clit-ton's guvmint, and the world media (the
Ameriken media wouldn't touch it!) know we don't agree with how this country
is going! One doesn't spit on the constitution and hang around too long
here......
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 06,
2000 at 16:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.145)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 17:05:53 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.245.243.55)
Rick, I have tested Jerrys device and it kills most of the night time signature. I estimate about 90% is gone. I did not use NVD's, but no flash was visible past 30 feet on the range. Yes I had my stupid A.. in front of the muzzle. I dont think you had a chance to see the device at the Hathcock Match, but it is way different than anything else out there. The device takes the gasses and runs them in circles in a can like attachment. By the time it exits you just have the blast and noise left, nill on the flash. This is all with 308 Win. I have not tested the 300 Win version yet, but I think when I burn up my new 300 BBL I will change to the NightHawk Device on the next one.
The only disadvantage to the Nighthawk is that it vents to the sides. That is what you caught me on with my second shot in the Match. The damm Rose bush I was in wiggled from the side blast. If I had not been Brain Dead at the time I would have cut some side branches and then they would not have moved. This was the first time I had used the device in a stalking comp, so I learned from that one. I learned that you have the eyes of an Eagle. Jerry's device looks like a small can, adds less than 1/2inch to the OAL, drops the recoil substantially and kills most of the flash. It just does not lower the sound signature. I see no reason not to use it.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 18:20:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.184)
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 18:57:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
I am considering either a Sako 75 heavy barrel varmint or a Tikka sporter, both in .308 or .30-06 caliber for long range (out to 1000y) tactical/target shooting. The TRG-21 is beyond my budget!
Any coments as to accuracy and reliability would be greatly welcomed.
Devin <dethredge@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:15:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.20.87.129)
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:33:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.157.109.79)
Oh yeh and the question/answer is the difference between the Green Berets and Girls Scouts is adult supervision. There Gooch if you wouldn't I will.
Mike - Do not remember Jerry's device on your rifle. Sounds interesting but again as you stated the side signature from venting gas can be a problem. The signature from your weapon was not that great (hehe) I just got lucky (hehe) and spotted it(chuckle chuckle). Sorry Mike could not resist. Hmm what was it that got you Pete? Can't remember.
Jerry - Heck man, I trust Mike to hit what he is shooting. I will stand down range for him to shoot a target. It is actually not too awfully dangerous as long as all know each other and there are reasonable safety precautions taken. LE may want to think NVDs now that the Russian Mafia is scatterin the stuff around for cocaine and stuff like that. They are the new world distributers of the latest and greatest stuff.
I do need to stress that the reasons for our not using flash suppressors or hiders is that there is an increase in the heat signature from vented gases. That signature is also significant when the gases are vented to the sides and up and it disturbs the vegetation. I have not tested all devices but all of them I have tested have failed miserable. Mike, if you can do an IR check with NVDs and let me know on Jerry's device I would like to know. Also what is the change in ballistics caused by the device, if any. This has been a fun thread. What other statements can I make that will cause more incoming?
Cleaning kits in the field I use the Kit and Caboodle pull cable rod. Have problems leting a sectioned rod go down the bore. They can damage lands with the section ends. Use a muzzle guide for sure and pull carefully. The muzzle guide will fit in the cut out section designed for the shot gun plug. Since I'm not using it for my shot gun I don't need that piece of equipment. The cable rod will also knock a case out when it is used for that problem as well.
Better go now before I decide that the muzzle crown is there to reduce recoil. Did I say that?
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:35:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.213)
Has anyone else noticed that SMK's are hard to get? I left someone 7 boxes at Lock, Stock, and Barrel but my first 2 choices were out. Sinclair got the rest of my business, but they were somewhat high price. Rumor has it from LS&B that it's 'cause Sierra went on strike last year and still is having problems filling orders. Specialties over 4 months.
And in the interest of ever increasing ease of living, I've decided to try Hornady's spray case lube. Anyone know if it will damage primers? I'm gonna spray 1500 FN berdan primed new cases for Mike's class, and would hate to see any duds.
Got some MAJOR good info in last US Constitution class, e-mail me off line if interested. Now I KNOW where all this CRAP comes from! Now all I need is another 20 or so semesters and I'll know what I need to!
Semper fi, and where the heck is dinner?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the upside down flag flyin banana republic formerly known as the, USA
- Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:11:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.218)
Well, things are sure looking up. I've narrowed my loads down for my .308 Win to two loads. These loads are the best that I've tested yet...
168gr Sierra HPBT/MK, 46.0gr WW-748, F215GM primer, seated to the lands.
175gr Sierra HPBT/MK, 42.0gr H-Varget, F210GM primer, seated to the lands.
Both of these loads are supremely accurate in my rifle, on a calm
day they will print under a 3/8" at 100 yards. But! I do have a wee bit
of a problem with run out. So, I ordered a K&M neck turning tool to
rectify that problem. I measured the necks very carefully and found that
the necks were a bit thicker on one side than on the other.
This resulted in unexpected fliers (those were predicted, and they
were marked with the amount of run out in felt marker on the case) and
traced to a excessive run out. Once this is fixed I expect my groups to
shrink quite a bit.
I was actually suprised that even with a hot barrel the rifle will
shott under a 1/2" C to C.
I do have a question to put foreward at this time. How often do you punch the bore on the range? I think I will do so every 15-20 rounds to try to keep fouling to a minimum. After the copper builds up you can plainly see the group begining to spread out.
Last question. I want to start developing loads for my .300 Win mag
sendero. What is a good load to start with? Does anyone have trouble with
run out on such a short neck? How do you seat your bullets, to lands and
grooves? What powder works best? I'm starting with H-4350.
Thanks in advance my brothers!
Semper Fidelis!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.77.71.52)
Lesson learned. You won't make the shot if you don't think you can!
A confident attitude helps some. You gain confidence thru practice.
You guys really got to tape this episode and analyze it to death.
It also contains the secret as to why Marines do not worry about the Magnus
Effect. I am not giving this one away. It will probably be on the USA channel
again in another couple of months or so.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:52:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.61.84)
Dope it, Dial it, Dump it
CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:58:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.14.189.98)
Can anyone offer a pet load for 6MM Rem? I'm using a 24" barrel with a 1 in 10 twist. I prefer about an 80 grain bullet but will appreciate any accurate loads you can offer.
Thanks!
Roger Lays <rlays@zbzoom.net>
PA, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 00:07:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.67.120.227)
How much sniping is done after dark to even worry about NVD signature?
Told you it was a useless question!
Bolt now goes back to Plaster's and Lau's books to look up the answer,
out.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 01:44:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.147.33)
The Hornady One-Shot case lube is good and easy to use, but keep it away from the plastic MTM Case Gard loading trays if you use them.
The solvent in it will melt the tray and you will end up with mozzarella-type strings of plastic on your cases.
Wooden trays work fine.
They (Hornady) reckon it is harmless to primers or powder.
Also, make sure you wait for a couple of minutes for the solvent to fully evaporate or the cases can stick in the dies.
With a name like One-Shot its got to be good for sniper ammo :-)
Sniff.
Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
Auckland , New Zealand - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 04:40:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 203.96.49.197)
Dconrad
Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
manhattan, ks, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 08:46:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.189.101.113)
There have been many write-ups on moly, and the argument as to weither
it aids to accuracy still goes on... but as to barrel wear, it's of zero
help.
Barrels don't wear from friction. If that were the case, it would
be the muzzles that went first. The burn out from flame temperature, and
it happens in the throat, and your 6x284 is one of the barrel burning-est
calibers there is!
So every time you fire a round, drop 50 cents in the jelly jar,
so you will have the price of a new barrel just when that one is a goner!
Bill R...
You ol' yote bate... you mean to tell me you bought the day version
of the Mil-dot Master. Shame on you... get the night version... it lights
up green like a timex watch ;))
Rick...
The muzzle crown "IS" there to reduce recoil, and the stepped ones are more betterer than the round ones, and you know that! ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 10:17:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 10:25:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)
What got me busted at the Carlos Match????
I cain't really remember but it had to be one of these memorable
lines:
Choice A-
"Flopping like a Bass out of water" courtesy of Sinister Dave.
"Flopping like a Bass out of water" courtesy of Sinister Dave.
"Flopping like a Bass out of water" courtesy of Sinister Dave.
Choice B -
"You Idiot (my addition) thats the wrong color camo for the vegetation" Courtesy unnamed observer
"You Idiot (my addition) thats the wrong color camo for the vegetation" Courtesy unnamed observer
"You Idiot (my addition) thats the wrong color camo for the vegetation" Courtesy unnamed observer
Choice C-
"Keep your Freaking head down!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Keep your Freaking head down!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Keep your Freaking head down!!!!!!!!!!!"
Have a GREAT WEEKEND folks
Pete "The Trim Painter" R <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 11:19:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.59)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 13:25:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.193.94)
Rick, I wondered about change in ballistics also, with Jerry's device, but that rifle has the most velocity of any 308 Win I have ever used. Depending on lot I get anywhere from 2650 to 2720fps out of Federal 175's, in 70 degree temps. The thing groups very well, all day long, and recoil is reduced greatly. I imagine the IR signature will be about that of a surpressed weapon. Have you done any studies on them Rick?
Multi Piece Cleaning Rods are the equal to Multi Purpose anything. Good for nothing. I use the same pull through as Rick for the field. Black Hawk sells the kit with a Alice Clipped case for about 30.00. Next question
Louis, I am a big fan of US Optics, but 36 is too much power for anything being shot past 200 yards. I would go with one of the fixed power models of 15-19 power for the fifty. I am going toi test one of the SN3's in 3x17 on a couple of fiftys in June. I will let you know how it goes, but I prefer fixed powers for fiftys and nothing fixed over 20X. US Optics lenses are so much clearer than the MK4's that you have to see them side by side to beleive it. The MK4 has and will continue to be a scope I would bet my life on. Either brand is an excellent choice.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 16:52:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.59)
5/5/00 Dealers were notified by Leica today by mail all shipments of the Leica 800 range finders will cease until July 15th. An upgrade is being done to assure accurate reading. Some of the models shipped so far have had some problems. Anyone with problems should ship the range finder directly to Leica in New Jersey. They will be given top priority with the upgrades.
4/25/00 There has been a report of a high failure rate of the Leica
rangefinders from the of the first users to take them in the field. Word
is they can only range to about 200 yards and the problem is a bad production
run from Portugal. If you have this Leica and are having problems with
it, contact Leica . If you are looking to buy one of the new Leica 800
rangefinders, make sure the dealer has the units that are not affected
by this problem. Leica and most dealers are aware of the problem and are
getting the bad units off the market. If your dealer does not know for
sure which units he has, DO NOT buy it.
spectr17 <spectr17@netscape.net>
Redlands, Kaliforny, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 18:36:52 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.179.149.147)
My feeling is:
Primary device for cleaning should be an Otis kit like Rick mentioned.
Secondary would be a sectioned rod just in case you get something lodged in there that the Otis flex rod can't handle like a seriously ruptured case in the chamber.
Sectioned rods aint bad if you PULL them through the bore vice push them through.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 19:13:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 22:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.196.57)
Pablito, are you using something like Norton Utilities to de-frag your RAID?
Sniff, an easier and cleaner way of using the Hornady One-Shot is to put your brass in one of those plastic grocery bags (maybe a hundred-odd pieces) and give a single spray. Manipulate the brass in the bag by squeezing a dozen times. It spreads the lube out thinner, and ensures all the pieces are evenly and thinly coated. When you're finished lubing, put the cases in your block and use the plastic bag for rubbish around the reloading table.
Bolt, if you have to put "Eyes-on" a target, and absolutely, positively have to control it, then you have to watch it and cover it with overwatch fire 24 hours a day. That means eyeballs, optics, TV, passive Night Vision, thermals, or a combination thereof. Observing isn't good enough if you have to positively ID friend-or-foe, and have to whack him when he exposes himself or threatens friendlies. US Military term used to be STANO -- Surveillance, Targeting, and Night Observation gear. In sniper terms that may mean hand-held day/night thermal observation devices or sights, active laser illuminators, and a range of other gizmos that must be weather-proof and ruck-stuffable, along with batteries, to operate in GI field conditions. That's why MIL-SPEC stuff is expensive and often heavier than the grunt wants to take. But ever notice that if it really works, he'll always take it with him?
Civilians that think their stuff is invisible to good Passive Night Vision and thermal gear can go ahead and think that. Really. No kidding. Their partners, remember the crack-thump rule, so that you can at least try to figure what direction my incoming is from, and you can try to run behind something solid in my line-of-sight without tripping over the number 1's body (it adds to the "Spirit of the Chase").
Your muzzle can? Three to five rounds and that thing glows like a beacon to a good thermal or FLIR (it also works the other way -- if your suppressor has aluminum parts that cool faster than steel, it will show up under white-hot/black hot contrast switching). Small Arms Review had some excellent civilian color thermal pictures of suppressors and their heat patterns about a year ago.
Aggie Special Ops Trivia:
LTC James Earl Rudder, Commander, 2nd Ranger Battalion, Pointe du Hoc (Utah Beach), June 6, 1944. 16th President of Texas A&M, 3rd President of the Texas A&M University System, "Demonstrated an uncanny ability to inspire men and lead them to exceptional achievement."
What school do you think designed the recoil system for the 105mm Howitzer in the AC-130 Spectre gunship?
Whoooop!
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
So, the way I see it, no matter what you do to camo and ghillie up, you are still gonna be a sitting sniperduck 24/7. Can I sign up for another wannabee MOS before the match? Anybody up for an M1 Abrams Rendezvous?
What's a sniper to do?
Bolt with head hung low cowers in the dark now, out.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:33:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.73)
Gooch - Thanks man, forgot about the pulling of the sectioned rod warning. I also highly recommend the use of a muzzle guide with that procedure AND the knocking of the ruptured case procedure.
Dan - Let it scatch off. Adds character and shows you use the weapon and not showcase it. I do know that the boflage (sp?) we use is a pain to get off and that the boflage remover is useless for that task on the H&S Precision stocks. However, all the M24s we send to Remington come back really clean and no paint. Have no idea how they do it. But remember Dan, you may have to change colors as in season, location, or just for the fun of it. It would be nice if the original coats came off easy to allow for the changes.
Mike - I have never used any of Jerry's devices. We also have not done extensive studies on the change in ballistics with other flash hiders. The exception being, and this was not a study just an observation, the present piece of crap hider the army bought destroys the weapons grouping ability.
Louis - Follow Big Mike's advice and forget the big powers. The magnification includes all mirage between you and the target. You will not be able to see the target on most days at the longer ranges except as a dancing glob of dark shimmering goo. Boy, so much for my poetic streak. Stay in the lower powers, not to exceed, 16 if you are warm climate afflicted or 20 power if more mild climate afflicted. The desert has to be seen to be believed at 24 - 36 power.
Enough of my babble time for now. Got a FTX to do again and we get helicopters to jump from this time! Of course being old and decrepid, I'll stay on the ground and shoot any of the students that screw up the link up.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:38:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.199)
I'd advise anyone buying these to order the single trigger. I've got the double set system, since the single trigger was not available at the time. The extra reach, plus the complexity are not worth the set feature. I've never found a commercial bore guide to fit, I turned my own adapter for my Stoney Point guide from a piece of brass. Single loading is a royal pain, you have to thrust the cartridge forward into the chamber, it won't feed just dropping it into the ejection port. Magazines are a bit pricey, $50 for 5 rounders, $120 or so for 10 rounders if you can find one. The small sling point is moderately annoying, I just use OD nylon webbing as a carry strap, you could use a short loop to make an adapter for a standard US sling. I need the Eagle cheek pad to get a good view through the scope, the Bock 30mm rings seem a bit high, The Styer 1" rings are a bit lower, I have not tried the Styer 30mm's.
As for more gizmos available for the 700, that may be true, but what do you need? The KISS principle, eh?
I will say that if you plan to shoot a few thousand rounds a year,
the rebarreling issue would be a problem. While the factory may do it,
your local gunsmith is going to have a real problem sticking a new tube
on.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:40:26 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.30.190.208)
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 00:49:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 01:59:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.197.153)
Leica Camera Inc.
156 Ludlow Avenue
Northvale, New Jersey 07647
Tel.: +1(201) 7 67 75 00
Fax: +1(201) 7 67 86 66
E-mail: olesin@aol.com
Your dealer can also do the return but it will be faster if you send the unit directly to Leica North American Service at the above address.
((SPEC OUT))
spectr17 <spectr17@netscape.net>
Redlands , Kaliforny, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 03:05:13 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.179.148.33)
I had a fun day today, took a female friend of the family out to
do a bit of shooting today. Pretty open minded gal really was looking foward
to learning how to do a bit of shooting. Had some fun on the way out to
the range doing a little bit of "pretend tag" with the squirrels on the
road, I only teased her and never actually got close enough to hit a flea
bag. It was fun to hear her squeek.
I took a good representation of my collection out for her to try. Before each step up in the next caliber or gun type she received complete instruction on how to handle the firearm she'd be using.
Started her off on the 22lr. bolt action for starters and put a bipod on the front end to make things easier for her. After I had her popping the 12 inch plate at 150 yards with reliable "kentucky windage." I moved her on up to a AR15 space gun which after zeroing for her she managed to nail two hits on a penny at 100 yards after 5 shots. She was so excited she now has the penny on her keychain. It's almost a dead center shot too. After that we had her owning pretty much anything on the hillside out to 300 yards on the range. She got to see what a 40grn Vmax will do to a 2 liter bottle of water, it actually knocked over two other bottles spaced 2 feet and 4 feet to the right of the one she hit.
I found her doing something that I have never seen a new shooter do. She was listening to the buffer spring like a pro, when she heard only half a cycle of the buffer spring she took her hand off the grip and dropped the magazine without pulling the trigger on a locked bolt! I never had to explain it too her it just came naturally as she listened to what the gun was doing. She ran the controls of an AR15 better than some of my friends who have shot guns for a heck of a lot longer than she had.
She took no exception to continuing to shoot 40 rounds out of my SKS many of which were usede trying to hit a plate at 300 yards. She scored about 2 hits in 20 shots or so. The concept of iron sights takes a bit of practice not to mention the problems with SKS sights along with a decent right to left wind blowing on the range.
Next up was the AR10 with 168grn Amax loads that I had just zeroed, she promptly fired 15 rounds of that hitting another 100 yard 2 liter bottle of water. Also hitting a 6 inch steel plate at 200 yards and owning a 12 inch plate at 300 yards.
Only thing that was trouble for her was standing shots because of the upper body strength needed. Back on the bench she did just fine.
Worked some pistol shooting into the day also. Thanks to the cheap 22lr. I bought we managed to do a bunch of clearing of 22lr duds from my Ruger MkII pistol.
After about 5 hours of shooting we were a bit sun burned. Never figured the time was gonna fly by that fast.
She made some great comments where she mentioned that she could see the point of owning a couple different firearms. The idea that not all guns are the same was pretty clear to her but was made more clear by having fired a bunch of them and enjoying herself the entire time.
I'm gonna put this one on the back burner and keep an eye on her and just remember that she is there. As the range manager said, "be nice to that one." I'm gonna wait tell she gets through her first year of college as there is about a 4 year age difference.
Final words,
When sunburned, who needs a girlfriend at night? You have yourself
to keep warm!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpatty town, Ca., USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 04:23:27 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.2.187)
Thermal - Hey I'm F**K'D with just me,a hot barrel or a bonfire. The one good thing is most of the Thermal systems I've seen are awkward and noisy. (HHMM! A good tgt maybe?)
NVG's or NVS - I can crawl under very small rocks, but seriously
it won't (hopefully [always the optimist]) be turned your way at the moment
of firing, but I figured I'll try anything that will help. Mike - were
going to do some testing on the CAN up North. (Hey Dave three to five rounds?
I knew I should have brought the Mag-58)
Night shooting, like Sinister Dave mentioned, has its definite advantages
- usually less idiots with AK's banging away at every tree or scrub, after.
The moral of this story is don't fight against highly sophisticated
enemies (subvert their economies instead).
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 04:34:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.130.4)
O.K., somehow I have screwed up. Let me preface that by saying that I don't leave the range until my weapons are properly and thoroughly cleaned. It has also been about 2 1/2 months sense I have been able to shoot my long range rifle. That being said here is what happened. I pulled my rifle out of the case last night and played with it a little. I got a sick feeling in my stomach when I looked down the barrel from the muzzle end and noticed a light layer of rust in the grooves. There was not rust any where else, just the grooves of the barrel. How did it happen? I don't know. I keep it well cleaned and oiled. I haven't had it around moisture either.
How to I get rid of it? I did a cleaning last night and it did not go away. How much damage have I done?
Damn,what a feeling I have in my gut!
D. Hurley <dhurley@mikemarrs.com>
Temple, Texas, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 12:20:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.215.10.193)
Are you sure it is rust? It could be a layer of copper fouling. Get
some Sweet's 7.62 bore cleaner and see if it comes out. A friend of mine
has an M2 fifty Cal, and it looked like the barrel was full of rust...but
it was copper fouling.
Good Luck,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:02:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.197.188)
If what you have is really rust, the next shot or two you fire will solve your problems, it'll blow out with the bullets.
But there is the posibility that it is copper down in the corners of those rascally groves, that didn't come out during your quick effort at the range.
It's all well and proper to run a patch or two through the bore at
the range, but that's just going to get the powder fouling out.
The copper jacket materal will need contact with solvent for longer,
to desolve, especially when tucked down in the corners of the groves.
Try Hoppes BR cleaner, or Hoppes #Ni... nin... aw skit, you know,
the stuff that smells so good (I don't want to start a cleaning war again!).
Let the stuff soak for 15 minutes, and wet patch it again, soak
for 15 minutes, and repeat until they come out clean enough to re-box.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.93)
Thanks again guys for the quick response.
D. Hurley
D. Hurley <dhurley@mikemarrs.com>
Temple, Texas, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:28:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.215.10.193)
Bo Gunsmith <bo@ashleyoutdoors.com>
Ft.Worth, TX, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 14:56:25 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.215.76.50)
I use a civvy FLIR almost every day of the week. The fire service here in the US is witness to a massive buying frenzy of these handheld devices since they simply allow you to see through smoke. The state of NJ just funded a bill to buy one unit for every municipality... at a cost of approx $8,000./unit!
The latest and greatest units are like looking through a black and white video camcorder...they have very sensitive optics that can pickup deer in the woods at 200+ yards (that's the extent of my testing)
In five years, they'll be within the $5,000 per unit cost range, will weigh less than 2 lbs and will last a good four hours per NiMH battery charge. The military is the source for all this tech, imagine what their units will be able to do.
food for thought.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 15:07:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 15:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.88)
Just that it is another added concern to add to why things are seen.
Jim - FLIR forward looking infra-red isn't thermal.
The IR light spectrum while not visible to humans is not the same
as the Heat energy radiated from heat sources. - I am not smart enough
to discourse in greater depth. -'lito, Dave, Rick etc. comments
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 15:52:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.141.30)
Dave, Rick: how common is it for patrols to get these kind of goodies?
Is FLIR and the NV goodies something that one worries about when observing
a firebase, a mechanized convoy, or a two squad patrol in the woods? Hard
to beleive that a patrol would carry it, maybe company sized group?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000
at 17:07:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Infrared is toward one end of the "VISIBLE" light spectrum, UV being at the other end. A warm iron object emits "invisible" (to human eyes) IR up to around 800 F when it enters the visible (to human eyes) spectrum as "red hot".
Then you have all sorts of wavelength stuff outside that band. But IR is most definitely the commonly used thermal imaging technique. (You COULD use a few thousand thermocouples in an array if you could connect them all.) If you can snore through it, there is an article that goes into more IR detail in "Articles.....", "Small arms....." "Infrared....." http://www.snipercountry.com/IRSniper.html
But in a nutshell: The "warmth" from a pot belly stove gets to you in more than one way; CONTACT if you touch it; CONDUCTED via the air between you and it; and IR energy being EMITTED by the stove and ABSORBED by your skins nerves. IR imagers use the emitted IR. An "infrared heatlamp" is no doubt putting out IR, but a lot of visible too. An incadescent IR light source is just a flashlight (hot filament) with a filter to block the visible wavelengths....The IR passes through. If you have an IR/NV scope, try shining a flashlight thru a common black plastic trash bag. Depending on the manufacturer of the bag, it will work.
Paul, lurking under a space blanket...hiding from aliens, not IR!!
paul <paul_f_mickey@ameren.com>
Illinois, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 17:52:09 (ZULU) (your host
address: 198.51.215.201)
The Thermal viewers use true "heat" to form the images... the wave lenght is 30 to 50 times as long as "IR", and resolution sucks!
True "IR" is just below the visible spectrum... normally considered .725 to 2.0 microns (725 to 2000nm).
You guys can worry all you want about thermal detection, but it's expensive, uncomon, and anybody that has it, has a lotta other expensive stuff to ruin your day...
It's true "IR" that's your real threat, wheither it's "FLIR", or a "Day IR Scope", they will bust you with it, and tag you too!
A "Day IR Scope" will make your best effort at a wookie suit, look like a black bear in a snow field... and it doesn't even need to be on the gun sights...
The spotter says...
"See the house"
"Yup!"
"Down 4 oclock, ten mils... see the tree?"
"Yup"
"See the three bushes one mill at 3 oclock"
Yup!"
"Shoot the left bush!"
"BANG!"
You just died in the best wookie suit you ever made, cuz the spotter saw a snow white field, with two bushes, and a dark shaggy bear with a black rifle.
Day IR scopes can be hade for a few hundred bucks... and they're
showing up in the North West, where scouts watch over Marjuana
fields, and the poor LE guy that thinks he's sneeking up, is in
plain view.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:08:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.67)
You are wrong as you can be...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:11:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.67)
The older versions are very similar to the ones used by the navy for ship-board firefighting (made by a three letter acronym company "EEV")
The latest cameras, available from Scott, ITT, MSA, Bullard, Cairns, Fire Research, TI, and Raytheon (I believe)...produce much crisper inverse B/W images. They are effective with zero light, through heavy, heavy smoke and they work in wet environments of +500 F.
Would someone explain to me what "day IR" is, or how a "Mark I eyeball"
is different than the technology I'm familiar with.
James Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:13:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
If we have em' you can bet any drug dealer with $10,000 can get em'.
http://www.thermalimager.com/main.html
Jim Mitchell
Jim Mitchell <James_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:22:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Anyhoo, my question is with range cards. I've seen two varieties:
1. Shooter must know actual target size and number of mils subtended
. Table only provides range, not the required number of clicks.
2. Shooter calculates range using mil eqn (same eqn used to produce
the previously mentioned table), then uses card to determine elevation
moa, and windage moa (lists moa for 1mph perpendicular wind).
So how do military snipers use range card? Are there two cards? Do you get real good at mental arithmetic (mil eqn)? Do you simply memorize parts of the puzzle?
Sorry for the long post, but I've looked around the site and haven't found satisfactory info on using mil dot scopes and constructing range cards. BTW, I've read the tips section on mil dots, and it shows a card just like type 1.
Thanks
Byron
Byron <bef122@psu.edu>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 19:22:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.118.19.11)
The sensitivity range of your unit is 8 to 14 microns (8,000 to 14,000 nm)... way too low for camoflage detection.
"Day IR Scopes" have the ability to see green painted camoflage items (your wookie suit, and OD rifle) hidden in the grass, bushes, or trees, by detecting the difference in reflectivity of real IR (.725-2.0 microns) between chlorophyll and non-organic green things. It was first used in WW2 by arial recon, using IR film, to detect green camo painted concrete bunkers for bombing runs... and required developing, and printing, yadda, yadda...
Now it is do-able with a little hand held thingie about the size of a cam-corder.
If there is natural vegatation, you see it all in snow white, and the wookies in dark gray, or black.
Bad to be caught in your wookie suit with one of these.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 19:29:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.67)
I guess I wasn't all that clear about what I thought the fire service units would be good for...if your looking for "bad guys" at night, as the temerature is changing...they'll show up just like you describe, a big white form on a black background....
The greater the temp contrast, the easier they are to spot. The resolution
is about the same as the helo images they show on "COPS" or the gunsight
video from Desert Storm. Having practiced some, I can even get some depth
perception with it.... I can "walk quickly" through dense brush with the
unit in the deepest, darkest night...or right through obscuring smoke.
I very often run (bent over) through house fires where we used to crawl.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 19:42:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Jim... it's not about heat signature... Thermal devices use heat
and heat signatures... IR is like visible light, except we can't see it.
Think of IR as a color like read, blue, green and IR... A light
falls on a red cloth, and the blue, green, and IR are absorbed, the red
is reflected, making it look red.
With green cloth, the blue, red, and IR are absorbed, making it
look green.
With any plant that has chlorophyll, it will absorb blue, and red,
and reflect green and IR...
If you have a device that is only sensitive to IR, it will see the
reflected IR, but not the green, and the plant will look white, but the
green cloth looks dark, or black because the device doesn't "see" green.
With thermal scopes, the target has to be a different temprature,
or it won't show up... with IR, the temprature can be the same... it's
the IR reflectivity that "Blows your cover"!
Paul...
I'll sent you an e-mail... I've already bored everybody enuff!
Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 21:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.97)
Our 'portable' true thermal stuff has such a loud fan that it just sort of blows your cover anyway - so its not much of a use at an OP/LP.
** natural veg is a must in your ghillie **
I thought that most burlap etc. was partial IR suppressant? (another
lie?)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 22:12:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.129.204)
http://www.af.mil/news/Apr1996/n19960404_960307.html
http://www.x20.org/thermal/thermal_weapon_sight.htm
http://216.22.251.97/thermal-imaging-hughes-anpas.htm
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 22:40:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
And Patron 'Lito: you're way off the mark on that one, I'm no where NEAR bored of the subject. Dunno if I'd ever use it, but if I'm forced to, it'd be mighty nice to know what's out there, and how to defeat it (if there actually is a way).
Between this and the flash hider thread, I'd say everyone should
be getting their "entertainment" from "the regulars" ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic forerly known as the, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000
at 22:55:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.157)
I've done searches, and come up with nada... I think you are right...
"It makes you invisable to the enemy, so go charge that bunker!!"
Yeah... right!
Some of the hunting camo says it's been "IR Treated"... but what the hell does that mean... treated for what? They don' say!
Bravo...
If you're not bored with this... you're nuts... come on down to
Storm in september, and I buy you a brewski :))
'lito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 23:26:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.97)
Just remember, if you can see it, you can hit it.
If you can hit it, you can kill it.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfarifax.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 00:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
IR and Thermals - Yes, in the world of the military these are way to common and are to be avoided if possible. If you are targeting an objective with tracked vehicles you are going up against some of the finest stuff that will whack you with really BIG bullets. Another point to remember is that heat puts out IR waves in the complete spectrum. The little hand held viewers have got to be seen to be believed. Never seen an IR suppresant that even came close. The BDUs positively glow! If you want to feel truely helpless, try defeating the big Spectre Gunships and their IR systems on board that dam aircraft. Ran around the jungle in Panama for three nights while they lit us up with those great honkin lights of theirs. Used them instead of the guns thank you very much. But be in your best hidy hole with your best camo and night becomes day.
Kevin - Burlap looks like only one thing, burlap. Burlap will aid in defeating thermal signature to a degree as it spreads it out, BUT it will also heat up and glow on it's own.
Dave - You left one thing out that WAY TOO MANY snipers seem to forget, ask the students of today's debacle on a stalk. If you can see your target, then your target can see you. If you can be seen then you can be engaged. If you can be engaged then you WILL be killed. It is the same as the stalk in and to forget you must get away to play again.
Oh well, hope we added a little dry mouth to the fun and games.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 00:51:33 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.186)
"Bruce Robinson to the rescue".......Hardly!!
I have the unique opportunity to hang out with a bunch of shooters in Quemado, with Mike Miller instructing (still a few slots open, guys, so sign up!) and the chance to participate in some T&E with him later.
While I am flattered by Mike's post, and value both his opinions and friendship highly, I must point out that it is my good fortune to be invited to this event. I look forward to seeing what effect various flash suppressors have on night vision, and to working with Mike on a few other T&E details.
Anyone who has not signed up for this class should give some serious thought to doing so. New Mexico is absolutely beautiful this time of year, and you'll meet some great folks.
Buce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 01:25:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.30.123.31)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 01:28:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Kevin:
Thermal imagers noisy?
I regret I've never had the opportunity to try a thermal imager,
either civilian or military.
Anyone:
How noisy are the military and civilian thermal units?
How much current do the military and civilian units draw?
Does any manufacturer offer a winter hand generator accessory as
a replacement for battery use in NVDs in winter.
Run a cable from the NVD to a generator inside a jacket.
Squeeze a few times to charge the unit.
A bit noisy I suppose, but better than depending upon batteries
all the time.
Bravo:
Is the carbon in laser printer cartridges of any use as a substitute
for A-4 Black?
Gladiator:
If you haven't seen it yet, go.
It has a few quirks in the details; late renaissance armor on Russell
Crowe's horse and I've never heard of the Roman ARMY using Greek Fire (
sorta like napalm ).
Otherwise excellent.
I wonder if Hermann of the Cherusci tribe is looking for a few good
barbarians?
Oh yeah,
Hosting a party? Try: http://www.vvenus.com/mindf_ck/romorgy.htm
Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 02:54:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 157.178.1.101)
Learned a trick from a high power shooter the other day and saw somebody posting about case lube.
My friend uses graphite powder (only for neck sizing) as a lubricant for reloading.
You must take care not to overdo it, about 1/4 inch of the powder in a bottle lid does it.
I clean the cases at the range as I shoot them with Hoppes No 9, or tumble them at home, Then I get a case-neck brush, dry and brush clean the inside of the case necks.
Next step, when you are just starting reloading for the session, dip the case neck in the graphite (it should only go about halfway up the neck) and make sure to tap the excess out of the neck (the vacuum inside the case can sometimes hold a plug of powder in the neck).
Dip the first few cases (up to 5) in the graphite, then reduce it back to about every third case, of course if it feels like there is a little too much resistance it might have to be done every time, depending upon your dies.
You might not be able to see the powder on the cases, only a very small amount actually sticks to them.
I don't bother cleaning off the residue, the neck of the case takes on a slightly greyish tinge on brass cases, with federal nickel plated it makes no difference.
Just a thought.
Dave.
Dave Groves <david.groves@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT, Australia - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 03:39:03 (ZULU)
(your host address: 203.102.38.195)
It was "Mudville": cool (low 50s), heavy overcast, drizzel, rain, not exactly what we expect for May in California. Early in the week the weather folks had called for high 80s on Sunday, oh well. 17 shooters without any new shooters. Actually it would have been a good match for new shooters as it was dead calm during the first relay and almost that still for most of the second relay. Zero windage was the sight setting at 1000 yards for the first relay, though few actually used it.
The match was won by Ed Eckhoff, 305/2X shooting a Rem Sendaro in 300 Win Mag. This is Ed's first win, if you don't count the "No Bull" win last week. Ed seems to be "in the zone" right now. Second went to Carl Critz (285/2X, 280 AI), with Harry Dwyer (271/3X, 308) third. This is the fourth time in five matches that it took over 300/360 to win.
This is a fun shoot. Anyone interested in long-range shooting should come shoot with us on the first Sunday of the month at 0800.
Dee
Dee Turner <deeturner@jps.net>
Roseville, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 03:41:37 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.119.27.210)
O.K. so I panicked, shoot me. Bill B. and Pablito were correct (of course), it was copper fouling. I don't know how it got by me. Chalk it up to murphy, I guess. Anyhow, sweets 7.62 cleaned her up real good.
Dennis humbly retreats with his tail tucked firmly between his legs.
Thanks for the fast help guys.
D. Hurley <dhurley@mikemarrs.com>
Temple, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 13:34:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.215.10.193)
Dee Thomas, I have never seen the wind not blow at Mudvillle when I was there. I think the last time I shot I had five minutes on for a 1000 yards with the 300 Mag 220's and my hat tied to my head. You Tease!
Tony from Barrett and I talked yesterday. My next project, testing the new XM107 and the models 99 and 82A1, are being shipped today. These should be fun to shoot on the off hours of New Mexico.
I shot some of the Navy Length 300 Win from Black Hills the other day. It is a special order item. That stuff is great! No need to reload the 300Win with Black Hills around. They are also doing a 338 Lapua with 300 grainers. Now whne HS ships my 338 Lapua I will be ready.
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 13:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.46)
OK, so everyone now knows that there is day and night stuff to get us busted. Let's ask the $20,000 question: HOW DO WE DEFEAT IT? If the BDU treatment is a farse, what DOES work? Just a prayer that they don't send a Spectre to help spot us at the next Storm jambouree?
Well, I guess I'll go to the emporium and look for a couple of "like
new" surplus stingers ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000
at 17:01:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Anyone heard anything about shoulder mounted laser cannons or is
that technology lagging?.... How about the light bending electronic ghillie?
Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 17:09:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
I agree with "Sinister Dave's" comment...
"Just remember, if you can see it, you can hit it.
If you can hit it, you can kill it."
But not totally with Rick's...
"If you can see your target, then your target can see you. If you can be seen then you can be engaged. If you can be engaged then you WILL be killed."
The nature of Camoflage (in the bigger sense than BDU's or Wookie
suits) is to see, and not be seen.
For LE, that may be "Hide in plain sight" as a bag lady on a park
bench, watching a deal go down.
In S.E.A., The VC did it to us all the time, as peasents in a village, and watched us "in plain sight".
If your subject is a minor player, or a "Big shot" in a third world country, you may be up against nothing more that a pair of bins (but don't count on it)... on the other hand, if the subject is a major player, or heavy politico, you're going to be up against every toy in the trick bag.
The main thing is to know your enemy's capabilities, and equipment, and like BR said... never assume you're invisible, day or night.
Rick - "Sinister" ... your thought's.
Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 18:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.90)
consists of darkly colored tiny plastic beads, polystyrene I think.
The photoreceptor drum or belt is loaded with static electriciy in a way
to form the image, the paper picks up the charge which attracts the little
beads, which are then melted to the paper as it passes through the fuser
assembly, thus yielding a finished copy. IN other words, it is designed
to melt and stick to things. I can only imagine the unholy mess it would
make if mixed with smokless propellant.
-Tom
Mmm...Shooters Choice works on wad fouling in shotguns...but this
mess?
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 18:29:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.213.119)
Any information about making these adjustments, or anecdotes related to replacement units is appreciated.
thanks
please reply to me directly at jgleason@gunder.com
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
menlo park, ca, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 20:03:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.251.30.4)
After a conversation about 1911s I had last night with a couple of guys. I was left wondering about something. I happen to be a big fan of what the 224Boz represents in the way of a new kind of pistol round. Since it seems to be intent of the company that is producing this round to not make it available to civilians(can't say I blame them) is it feasible to make a 1911 in the 224Boz styling? Say have custom dies made either to the specs of the original cartridge or close to it. I figure the company might protect it's development by not allowing custom dies to be made that are copys of their design so that would force you to make a small change so that the die no longer was of the same design.
I figure from a legal standpoint as long as you aren't using AP bullets in the cartridge(which would be a big no-no in a handgun) then you should be able to go along with whatever plans you had for making the pistol. I really love the idea of a flat shooting handgun round that could actually hit something at 100 yards. I think the claimed velocity is up around 2200fps from a 5-6 inch barrel with a 40grain bullet(correct me if I'm wrong please).
From the articles I've read there are issues with properly timing the barrel lugs to the slide. There are also problems with this round beating the hell out of the breach face of the slide. Changing recoil springs is also mandatory from what I remember, I think they went lighter on the spring and perhaps lightened the slide to aid in cycling. I figure the barrel would be a pretty hard thing to have made and chambered.
Smoking Hole pistol design helped make a couple of these guns awhile back and they solved the problem of beating the heck out of the breach face by using Infinity slides with interchangable breach face inserts. They were also able to harden the part beyond what the slide required so that the performance life was a bit longer.
If I ever hit the lottery this is where I'd like to go with a pistol just for my personal collection. I'd never have any intent of selling the thing after it was made. It is just one of those things that peeks my curiosity and I find fasinating, the whole reason I own firearms in the most part anyhow. If figure this would be one heck of an expensive undertaking with the potential for a few mishaps and a few "do overs" in the process of making something like this.
What are the opinions of "new fangled" rounds like this? It's not
long range rifle shooting but it's a new development that is sure interesting.
Without going to a bolt action hunting type handgun I find that flat shooting
trajectorys are what pistols have always lacked, till now.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 20:56:42 (ZULU) (your host
address: 136.168.215.165)
I acquired a .308 caliber SAR-8 rifle, the stainless steel receiver style, and I am looking to rebarrel it. Here are the problems that I am faced with :
1) I am trying, now to the point of desperation, to locate SOMEBODY
qualified to produce a 22 inch, 1-11 twist, single-cut rifled, stainless
steel barrel to actually FIT the SAR-8. I found numerous sources of barrels
for bolt-actions, M1/14's and AR's but nothing about H&K type rifles.
2) Install and braze a THREADED muzzle break of my choice which I will provide.
3) I trying to locate somebody with the experience and qualifications to install the barrel and headspace the rifle.
Feel free to contact me directly at the email address of ares@ezo.net
Help ?
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 20:59:51 (ZULU) (your host
address: 204.210.205.207)
Pass this puppy, but quick!! It's a dog-a-roo
Their line "...We true the action face, drill, tap, install and bed
Weaver® scope bases,..." mean that these are old surplus WW2
(or earlier) actions.
I'm a M98 lover, and have several.
There are the very good to outstanding commercial actions like the
FN, Brevex, Huskvarna... there are some good current actions made in Yugoslavia...
but these come already drilled and tapped. The ones these guys are selling
are very old military actions, that are the bottom of the barrel. All the
good military M-98 actions dried up about 20 years ago... A GOOD WW2 military
mauser actions, like the VZ-24 go for more than $800 stripped, and in the
white, and then you have to build the gun around them.
For the $650, get a Winchester, or Remington, or even a Sa... Sav... Savag.. Aw, you know the one :))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 21:06:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.90)
Then again on a stalk site you know where your observer is, but in
real life you don't.
Sean <macdelta1@webtv.net>
Houston, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 21:51:01 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.240.200.146)
Hey, glad it worked out for you. I know the sick feeling the first time I saw that "Rust". Sweets has always worked for me. PS, dont leave it in the bore. Dry out the Sweets and run an oiled patch through the bore. Just be sure to dry out the oil before shooting.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:06:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.197.161)
A question for Rick at Bragg. We have recently been issued the PVS-10
and are trying to work the bugs out. It seems to hold it's zero and doesn't
have too much of a change between day and night operation (left 1.5 min
on mine). What's driving us crazy is the narrow field of focus on the ocular
lense. It seems that if the shooter is not perfectly aligned behind the
glass the image is terribly distorted. And what's with the yellow tint?
Have we failed to adjust the unit properly? Is there a fix for the problems?
I haven't had the opportunity to speak to anyone that has had a lot of
time behind the unit. Was hoping you might have some advise. Thanks.
SSG Maries/2-162 INF/ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
Oregon, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:28:15 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.163.142.12)
Next point, we are pointedly not answering "what can we do about IR" becasue this is an open forum that does not need to contribute to some butt lick using a technique learned here to screw with Mike or his buddies.
Have fun guys and hold hard.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:34:26 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.212)
Good luck with the PVS-10s and let the chain of command know it is garbage. It is the only way you can fight back against this type of BS in the procurment system.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:44:34 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.212)
Greg: Stop Lurking - are you going to go shooting w/ Rob and I on
Sunday?
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 04:05:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.138.107)
I've never had any experience with U.S. made suppressors, but I have used a few different types down here in New Zealand as there are no restrictions on the ownership or use in this country.
You buy them over the counter the same as a 'scope or sling.
The most common types used on .22s are the Parker Hale screw on type and a locally produced PVC pipe model sold as the "Silent Kill".
The Parker Hale retails for about NZ$90 (approx US$45)and is very
quiet when used with sub-sonic ammo.
It requires the muzzle to be threaded.
The Silent Kill is a slip on type that is a little bulkier than the
P.H. but no alteration is required to the muzzle and it only adds 2 inches
the the length of the barrel.
Retails for about NZ$60 (US$30).
A small company by the name of Percy Engineering makes suppressors
for all calibres up to .308 and they are very good as well.
The one fitted to my .300 Whisper is superb!
(NZ$200-300)
He also does full-length ported barrel models for 10/22, Camp Carbine
etc.
I have also read good reports on ones made by Robbie Tiffin of Gunworks in Christchurch.
I don't know how you would go about importing them into the USA but it might be a lot cheaper and just as good as a US made one.
Suppressors are very common on .22s in this country for rabbits and possums, especially on 10 acre "lifestyle" blocks.
One target club in Auckland mandates their use on their range in the local community hall.
Some speciallist Police and Army units use MP5SDs but I don't know about any tactical use of suppressed .22s.
I will dig out the contact numbers of the makers mentioned and post them for all, but if anyone has any questions feel free to contact me.
Sniff, in the Land of the Long White Cloud.
Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 07:42:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
203.96.49.14)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 09:55:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.20.198)
Re: Hesse Arms
I'm fairly new to FALs, but the FAL Files is an excellent site with
a great forum for learning all things FAL. Most on the forum are not big
fans of Hesse. I have a personal Hesse customer service bitch, but I'll
not get into details. In short, I paid a 13% restocking fee because they
sent me garbage parts. Most FAL shooters do not think very highly of Hesse.
If you are willing to go to the $1000+ range, email me, and I'll get you
in touch with some good FAL builders. They're regulars at FAL Files. Mark
@ Arizona Response Systems, Rich @ Century Gun Work (NOT CAI), Mike @ MSC,
etc. Also, DSA builds brandy new FALs, but they have a waiting list.
Byron
Byron <bef122@psu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 13:12:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
128.118.19.11)
About the only application you will find is to be a cop and try to get on a SWAT team in a few years. I have never heard of a department that will take you "as is" and put you to work as a sniper. You'll have to get years of experience as a cop first.
Advice? Stay in, change MOS's to something you can use on the outside, get a degree while on active duty, THEN get out.
This is from a guy who spent 21 years in the military, USMC and Army sniper, CQB trained and all of that shit. Stay in.
SSG Maries, I think you can thank the Benning crew for the POS-10 (Piece of Shit-10). Am I right Rick?
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 17:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.160)
Rick: SORRY for the request for info on defeating IR. DOH! Just wasn't
thinking about "the audience". After talking "personally" with so many
of the guys here, I forget there are those that aren't "good guys". Sometimes
my curiousity over-rides my common sense. But does it have anything to
do with releasing 1000 fireflies from a 2L bottle all at once when you've
been spotted? ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 10,
2000 at 18:00:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Pablito raised a point at the time that I agreed with:
I was arguing that it was a bit foolhardy to just willy-nilly start experimenting with putting different substances on rounds, as the effect MAY be unpredictable and even dangerous to someone who doesn't know what he is doing. Pablito raised the point (as I recall) that while it may be true with some substances, that the ones he recommended were safe and that the audience at SC was experienced enough in reloading, etc. that they would not do something too foolish anyway (or words to that effect. Sorry Paul, I don't remember the exact quote, but I think it's fair to say that my misquote abides by the spirit, if not the words.)
Anyway, we ended the argument agreeing on that basic point. 'Nuff said.
These days I do not actively participate on this site, but I do get the chance to read it occasionally. While I still generally agree with Pablito's point about the relatively high reloading experience found on this site, certainly with him and some others, I am still DUMBFOUNDED to notice the all-too-often pleas for a "pet load," or postings of the same.
If you need to ASK for a good starting load for a given standard round and a common powder, like a .308 Win, 300 mag, 7mm, or whatever, then you shouldn't BE reloading. Put the tools down and back away from the bench.
1). This information is commonly published in about 25+ easily available reloading manuals. What? You don't USE reloading manuals? Then you shouldn't be reloading, no matter how experienced you think you are, someday something will bite you, maybe through no fault of your own. You might seriously hurt yourself or another simply because Joe Shmoe told you that he likes 50 compressed grains of Varget in his .308 and you didn't bother to look it up. Use the books, they keep getting reprinted for a reason.
2). Every rifle is different. Every individual rifle of a given model is different. Every individual rifle will shoot differently in different situations. If by "pet load" you are interested in accuracy (and why wouldn't you be?), then you will need to find your OWN accuracy load anyway. Maybe you'll find Pete's 44.0 grains of Varget to work best in your situation, maybe you won't, but just because it works best in Pete's smokepole, doesn't mean it will do anything special in yours.
3). "But I was only asking for advice so that I can test it in my rifle!" That may be true, but only a real stroke just takes a "pet load" from another person, and fires it off in their rifle without doing both of the following: a). Verifying it to be reasonable in a book or two, b). reducing it by 10% first, then working up to intended charge. Once you have verified a reduced load and started working up to find your individual sweet-spot, then it is 100% YOUR responsibility to know what is safe in your INDIVIDUAL rifle.
4). For the same reason, It does little good to post that 47.6gr of powder XXXX shoots sweet in your rifle, as it may not in another and any safe reloader will try it first at about 43gr anyway.
5). "But I already shoot 47gr of powder XXXX in my rifle, so why should I reduce to 43gr just to make sure that 47.6 is safe?" Well if you already shoot 47 grains in your rifle and know it is safe, then you probably don't have to reduce to know whether 47.6gr might be safe. But this raises another question: How did you arrive at 47gr? Did you find that charge in a book, on advice, or from testing? If you got it from a book or from advice, then you probably haven't done load development so you have no idea if 47gr is an optimum load in your rifle. And if you have no idea whether 47gr is optimum, why would you think that 47.6gr is optimum? Just because someone says so? On the other hand, if you settled on 47gr because your load testing showed it to be an optimum charge in your rifle, then 47.6gr is irrelevant for you anyway.
In the end, EVERY reloader needs to stop taking powder charge advice from others, safe or otherwise, and learn how to develop a proper load for himself, BASED ON, but not literally, load advice found in books or trusted friends. Only a fool blindly shoots any load handed to him. Only a bigger fool thinks that just because 44.0gr of Varget shoots well in xxx's rod, it will be optimum for his. 90% of the fun in reloading, is developing a good load. If all you want is someone else's work, then you deserve what you get.
Maybe a good thread to start here is the proper way to develop an accuracy load for your rifle. This hasn't been done in a while (and I promise I'll stay out of it this time).
Enough said, sorry for all the toes I am no doubt stepping on, but anyone who actually needs ask how much H4831 to use in a .30-06, probably needs the advice.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 18:57:50 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
Thanks.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 19:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.251.30.4)
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 21:59:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.207.202)
I don't disagree with you... it was maybe the wording, that if you
see them, they see you.
I believe that if you see them... and you do your job well... they
won't see you.
But you can't try to overwhelm them with technogology... the more active you are, the more vulnerable you are.
I am NOT an advocate of overloading IR with flairs... if you try that, YOU WILL DIE!
Buy the way... I'm sending you some day-IR photos that will get your attention :))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 22:35:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.24)
Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net
or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, Commiefornia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:43:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.101)
Many of those individuals that I have specifically asked about load data were leery to disclose or discuss any specifics until many e-mails have been sent and they have become somewhat comfortable with the knowledge, experience and load developement techniques of the person asking for advice. In this litigous society that we now live in, it only makes sense to get to know the experience level and counsel accordingly.
NOW, how do I work up loads?
1) Decide which bullets I want to try to shoot.
2) Decide which powder(s) have a burning rate suitable for the round,
the bullet weight, and the specifics of the rifle in question. (barrel
length, bolt vs auto loader, etc.)
3) Choose the primer(s) that you will try.
4) Determin O.A.L. for the rifle if I am not restricted to magazine
length.
5) Prep the cases - trim to min, flash holes, primer pockets, etc..
6) Determine the starting loads (usually book max minus 10%-12%),
and what will initially be considered as maximum. This will be below the
books listed Max.
7) Load 5 rounds per load (this is done for all combinations of
bullets, powders, and primers chosen), increasing the load by half grain
until initial max is reached.
8) Shoot these loads over a crono for group at 100 yards.
9) Check for pressure signs. If the pressure sign (or lack of it)
indicates that you may do so safely, consider going past the hottest loading.
This is done only if the groups are getting smaller as the charge is increasing.
Go forward very carefully in .2 grain increments.
9a) If so indicated, test the "hotter" loads at 100 yards as above.
10) Pick the ones with that have both good groups AND consistent
velocities, and load fifty of each load.
11) Shoot these loads as 10 shot groups at 300 yards (over a cronograph),
never firing the same load (as 10 shot groups) consecutively. The groups
are spread out so that the conditions equal out.
12) Average the size of each loadings five 10 shot groups, as well
as the average velocity, extreme spread and standard deviation for each
loads fifty shot set.
13) Decide which load is best.
14) At this point, I shou;ld have decided on the load that I will
probably shoot for the life of that barel.
15) If not, I go out and but some Federal Gold Medal, or Black Hills.
16) If still no good, then I sell the BI*CH!
Flame On Gentlemen (and I use that term loosely) ;)
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
south werst, pennsylvnia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:49:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.159)
Are any of you familiar with the custom Remington 700’s that Texas Guns of San Antonio, TX turns out?
One of my customers received one in a trade and I did the paperwork for the transfer. I was expecting a standard Remington 700 VS LH .223. This little beauty started out that way; but what a change. Upon opening the box, I found a 700 VS LH with a 20” fluted bbl., deep target crown, and beautifully blued. The action was slick and the trigger broke at around 2 ½ lbs. I fell in love with the bloody thing and wanted to keep it! Immediately called the dealer who shipped it and found out who made it. Called them and found out that they do them in several different calibers. They are all cut down to 20” except the .300 Win. Mag., which they cut to 22”. They claim that most will shoot ½ minute @ 100 yds. all day long. I definitely “NEED” one of these. Please tell me that these are great rifles!!!!!!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:22:58
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.73.76)
Winchester
winchester <primetimein69@yahoo.com>
Savoy, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:23:31 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.253.56.166)
Shriver - Spent three years selling my talents to the highest bidder. Usually Saudi Arabia but had other takers, I'm such a whore. Gooch is right on the market of selling your talents. I have over 23 years of Spec Ops, and had worked with the Dept. of State folk, Secret Service folk, DIA, CIA, and a few other of the campbells soap folk. the only reason I could do it for three years was I had a steady retired pay check and my wife works. You also must have contacts with the above folk to get permission to do certain areas and deeds or they will revoke your rights as a citizen, yep you will become a stateless person and they do not kid around. I am now the proud double dipper that all congressmen fear and hate. It was just easier to keep doing this with the government. I accepted the fact that I will never be any richer than I am good looking. This is of course self explanitory to the guys who have seen my ugly face in person.
Marius - Gooch is right, believe the POS 10 comes from a collaboration of Aberdeen and Benning in the school of wouldn't it be cool if. Thus comes the answer to an unasked question.
Bravo - No problem it is easy to forget who all may come on board. I am just as guilty of yabbering away without thought of who else reads this forum. Scott used to keep me well in hand with gentle remeinders. Now I have to exercise self (shudder) discipline. I have even had some of my highers ask about my ramblings on this site before.
Kevin - Your points are never useless. You have made many a fine point during these threads.
Let me go to bed, students gone and tomorrow we shoot for ourselves!!! Joy! I tell the students that this is the second best job in the army! The first best job is this job without the students taking up our range time! ;-)
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 01:15:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.209)
Don't blame the Benning guys for the PVS 10. They kept turning in
reports that said the thing was trash. From day one they wanted it to go
away. After a year and a half of bitching they were told that it was too
late since the Army had bought around 5000 of them and it had a NSN.
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 02:07:09 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.81.112.36)
all the store could give me was that it was supposed to have been
made up for the military for shooting Nato matches. All the work was supposed
to have been done by military armories. They had had it for several years
to eventually put back together as a project gun as it was sort of in pieces
when they bought it but never got around to it and it just collected dust.
Looks like the original 788 stock was seriously modified and expertly glass
bedded by some one who knew their stuff.
Have heard of lots of conversions but have never seen or heard of
military conversions of 788s before.
finally got it back together after some serious cleaning and it
shoots really great.
if anyone has info, would be greatly appreciated.
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.153.185.105)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:33:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Howdy Dude!... I owe you an appology. I thought that one should be
able to discuss loading tecniques on this site, that went past the page
2 beginers warnings in the loading manuals... but I was wrong.
Every time I brought up something past the basics, I got tons of
flack about all the stuff you "can't" do 'cuz your gun will blow up...
So I stopped talkin about those things... I went down in de-feet,
from the "chicken littles" on this site... however, you wanna load some
.308 "H.E.A.T.... drop me an e-mail ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 08:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.133)
A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already
peteR <PNGREIFF@aol.com>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:39:34 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.24)
Bill - That would be my luck as well. There is always way to much fire power on the wrong end of where ever I try to do my thing!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:47:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.194)
Andre with the ',
A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already "sniping" with the best
of them. A GREAT START friend!
Ofta handloading immolation Nirvanaland with Lito, UnDude, Bill R,
Pat Murphy, Scott, Tony Y, Bravo, danr, Boltster, and the rest of the helpful
ones.
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:49:36 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.24)
I stand by what I said, but I'll clarify my intent: THis site SHOULD be a good source of info on the TECHNIQUES of handloading, including such topics as Load Develpment, Case Prep, Tools of the Trade, Bullet Selection, etc. Even basic how-to would be great for the less experienced crowd, or those who want to start (which I would recommend to all of you on this site who don't already reload you own).
This idea has nothing to do with fear of litigation or that Pete's pet load of 200gr of Varget, smashed in an hydrolic press, then shoved into a .308 case, along with a cherry bomb, will harm anybody. My position is based 100% on the idea that a reloader, any reloader, takes the responsibility upon himself for all that he doesand also must work up his own rifle's accuracy load. There are plenty of readily available tables for the handloader to get load data, or confirm load data received from others. If someone tells me to load up 49gr of some powder I've never used before, then I'd be a moron if I didn't a). consider the source carefully, b). try to confirm the reasonableness of the load somewhere "official."
Beyond the personal safety issue is the basic one that YOUR load will probably NOT be my load (for optimum accuracy). If one is faced with the task of reducing a stated charge and working up an accuracy load anyway, then what do you need advice from someone you don't even know for?
Hey, I'm all for a discussion of various techniques (sadly lacking sometimes here in favor of unsavory animal "husbandry"), but anyone who actually needs to ask what a good .30-06 load might be, then is also willing to fire off that load without ever confirming that it's reasonable in their rifle, deserves what he gets. This information is NOT top secret. You can go into any gun store and find oodles of load data for all of you favorite powders. I'm not trying to stifle anything, just to say that load data (re: powder charge) is an individual thing that will be modified anyway, so what's the point in even asking?
Steve:
While I don't think most people here would do it, I think there are plenty of people who would just take a load I spout off and fire it off without checking. I've seen it many times. I'm glad you would not. I saw a guy at a range last year blow primer after primer in a rifle firing way too hot, who was dumbfounded because his buddy shoots this load all the time in his rifle without ill effect. People do this. Lots of smart people own guns, but lots of morons do also. Explaining to someone how to do proper case prep is a lot more helpful to newbie and expert alike, than the harm that can come because some stroke won't read a charge table.
Thanks for you best wishes Mike. I still haven't tried one of those mercury reducers, but I've been eyeing my rifle but lately, so who knows. I may have to get a sling order off to you one of these days.
Howdy Pete. Or was it two cherry bombs?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 11:58:32 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
"my greatest fear is failing my team-mates"
Last night, I was witness to a "brother in need" scenario and found nearly half my team-mates paralyzed by an overwhelming need to cover their own "arse" . This was not a particularly apocalyptic crisis, and the half that didn't have a philosophical crisis saved the day...
I am left wondering... how is it that failing your team (buying sub-standard
gear, presidents that lie, standing by while a mate dies because your too
scared to act).... how has this become even remotely acceptable? When did
personal accountability cease to be a norm?
Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 12:54:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
I think its time for the DOD to force the sevices to adopt the same sniper rifle systems. WIth the USMC building their M40's with Unertl and the Simrad, the Army with the M24 w/Leupold/POS-10 and the Navy with thier Macmillans (or whatever they have this week) its getting pretty hairy.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:15:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.158)
Andre'...
I still don't think this is a site for beginners handloading...
there is so much "how to trim your cases", "how to work up a load", and
"how to set-up your first set of dies" information around, that it would
bog this site to a stop, if we went there.
There has to be some expected level of function on a site like this, or all the discourse will go to ground.
If we discuss "Go bags" and Alice kits, we can't start out with "How
to pick out a canteen at your local Wal-Marts"... it has to ba assumed
that people that are attracted to this site, have achieved a mid or higher
level of functioning in shooting, and outdoor skills, and if we keep going
back to entry level on every topic, the very people that you want the answers
from, will leave and go elsewhere.
This was discussed about about 8 weeks ago... started by a timely
thread started be UnDude, which made the same point.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.72)
However, beginners DO exist on this site (evidenced by questions like "What's a good load for a .308 round for my new rifle?"). My feeling is simply that the first lesson that a beginner should learn is that everybody's loads are their own (for accuracy, not proprietary, reasons) and that the info that they seek is found in numerous books.
If someone wants to ask a question about case trimming, or something,
that's their business, but they shouldn't be asking about THAT, if they
can't even find a good load for a common round on their own. Does that
make sense?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:59:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
I thought that 44.0 grains of VARGET was a mid range load according to Hodgdons? Has that changed?
Exceptional accuracy and the ability to work at any temp range was what I, and a number of "trade" individuals who wish to remain out of the limelite, derived through a bit of scientific testing.
As far as I know, you were the first to post a totally unacceptable and despicably unsafe load 50.0 grains of VARGET in a .308 (EVEN IF IN JEST DUDE......) THATS SCARY in todays read only halfway society.
If it was not for T&E and publishing, both data here and elsewhere, we would all still be using the somewhat sterile "target" loads used for three or four decades in bullseye competition.
Time to "evolve" and get back to using hmmmmmm 43.5 grains of Varget and firing five shots to test a load ..........
;-)
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:47:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.161)
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:53:35 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.79.207.47)
Pete,
Yes, I still eat Varget on my Bran every morning, after "Blending"
as per lito's instructions, and would be trying to shoot it in the 6.5x284
except that the new "Short Cut" 4831 is a slower version of Varget with
the same qualities!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
You can paint the scope body, obviously not the lenses and turret caps on the scope.
1)Remove and lightly spray da caps exterior after masking the innards.
2) Leave them intact and cover with burlap, pantyhose, removable
bow tape, etc. etc.
anybody else???
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.162)
Jeeesus! if you need a load buy a can of Varget, the load max's are
on the side just like calories on a Pepsi Can. You ain't gonna blow up
yore gun. More likely you'll smoke up your safety glasses (which I hope
you're wearing or blow your ear drums when you fail to put on your protectors).
Ackley tried to blow up guns and couldn't put enough powder in a case to
do it. A piece of mud in a 12 gauge barrel or a stuck plastic case half
way up the barrel is far more likely to blow your gun and kill you than
the worst reload you ever heard off.
I've seen guys blow a primer and almost faint, I've even stuck a
bolt so damn tight I had to send it in to get it out but nothing is likely
to blow, just watch your eyes and be darn careful around semi autos and
you'll live as long as me. The most common reload problem I know is with
a well known loading Manual that has .270 win and .270 weatherby printed
in such a way that I know of several people who have loaded the weatherby
in the .270. Big smoke blown primers and stuck bolts but a good bolt gun
will hold. Pat; expierenced what many of us have with custom chambers.
Smith's use the smallest chambers assuming you want some kind of accuracy
from out of the box factory
ammo. This is a futile gesture in that most of the good loads are
fire formed anyhow. Another problem is with the difference between factory
and military loads. The cases are different in their metal and size, But
you won't blow a good gun with it.
I saw a double charge of 231 and many times bullseye in .45 colts
blow the clip out the bottom but some revolvers will blow the frame apart
and rupture the chambers. The chances you gonna screw up on the
scale readings or the reading the books is your biggest enemy.
Be sure you read your powder scale correctly!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
I am not getting into the reloading discussion.
Everything PD's and the Military buy has to do with Politics
Looking forward to seeing some of you in June.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.200.22)
I can emphasize with both of you, been there situationally - didn't like it one F#$%^ing bit. Specially when your "backup" is peeking round the corner half a block away, if they get the nerve to show up.
Its far worse as you know, when you have to go in and defuse, or attempt to gain control a thing gone REAL bad, or the fans on frappe'
Don't let Un-Dude fool you guys, for a Bionic Man he's in awful good shape. Just like my pal the Depity ;-)
Stay Safe!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:35:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.57)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:52:48
(ZULU) (your host address: 208.32.221.103)
And thanks for the recognition PeteR, beginning to feel like a "regular"
:-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, May 11,
2000 at 17:09:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Patron Dave, forgot to ask, you an Ag, or just know about Rudder's
Rangers? On the list of accomplishments, you might wanna add the F-15 Strike
Eagle (if what I was told was true).
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
here we go again in the, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:15:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.9.223.170)
OPSEC: I don't think about it much these days - But I am wholehearted agreement with Rick (I think I already mentioned it). When you are face to face with buddies, you can shoot the shit and have a open forum. But with this you never know who someone is - and you never know who's lurking. There are alot of things that civvies don't need to know. I think we'd all feel pretty shitty if some greasy turd learned something valuable off here, to drop some LE. Bad enough some grow ops are getting hi-tech they don't need help.
Dave: MH says Canuks can't go to SOTIC? Don't trust us? - I am wondering if Gene Econ's liberation comments have some truth. Dropped some HSM and am trying to see if we can offcially use it.
Anyway Shooting question here - anyone got any ideas on cleaning up my HK91 trigger w/o a PSG1 system.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:30:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.129.51)
If you're just a joe six-pack, and not even a wannabee, then why are disturbed because some sensitive information on defeating police or military equipment, is not made available to you? Are you looking for cool cocktail party chatter?
Remember that it's not just a dozen folks that read this site... there are some 1000 to 2000 folks a day that drop by are read this stuff, and not all of them come with a pedigree.
Why would you need to know how to defeat Day-IR... and how would the person who gave out that information feel, if they read the papers, that those same techniques used in a crime?
There is no closed club here... you wanna be a regular, just post on a regular basis.
And about RC cola, Moon pies, and sheep... you better lighten up dude!! :))
Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 19:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.29)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 21:55:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.116.83)
Kevin, of that Great Country to our north known the world over as
Canada - SOTIC was restricted to US forces only. HOWEVER, just last year
we had two seperate occasions in which snipers from Germany attended our
course. This may mean a lessening of the restrictions, which would be fine
by me, or a goof in protocol. I would vote for the goof, because to lessen
the restrictions usually involves the stars on high. None of us on the
commitee have heard of any changes and were surprised by the students.
Heck, check with the US Army LNO in your area and see what can be done.
I am assuming that you are still active military with a reason to attend.
:)
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:47:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.188)
Please don't take it personally if others on this forum prefer to avoid certain topics.
I am also not military or LE. Most (95%+) of my customers are. I'm an old woodchuck and deer hunter who loves precision shot placement, ear-to-ear on a chuck at 250 yds., or heart or spine shot on a deer. I like slinging large bullets at targets 1000 yds. away, too. A love of rifles and the skills involved in using them is what brings me here, so I think that we are not too far apart in this.
Point is, many of my customers want to remain somewhat anonymous for a variety of reasons, the possibility of retaliation towards themselves or their loved ones by bad guys being a major (and valid) concern. " Blown cover" is another issue, same reason that some of the reluctant "stars" of network TV programs appear in shadows or with their faces blurred. Some of the people that I deal with on this site have only revealed their true line of work to me after over a year of dealing with me, and after having personally met me and getting to know me. It's not cloak-and-dagger stuff, just plain old self-preservation. I cannot help but respect their wishes.
Same goes for discussion of certain topics that could negatively impact the day-to-day performance of their jobs, jobs in which they daily put their lives on the line. I do not feel that everyone in the US (or the world, within the context of Internet postings) has the need or the right to know everything. Consequently, I believe that certain topics of discussion may (and should) be curtailed on this or any other responsible site.
Don't take offense at someone saying, "I don't think that this is an appropriate topic for this forum, because the information could get a cop or soldier killed if it became widespread knowledge."
Please continue to post, ask questions, and contribute your knowledge to the site. Everyone xere has learned something from someone else.
Best Regards from Just Anorther Shooter.
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM On Fire, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:53:38 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.30.122.48)
Mr. Mussack: Sir, if you don't prefer sheep, may I suggest a truly Canadain animal? Try beaver. We like it so much up here, we even put it on our 5 cent coins! Sure, the furry little buggers stink like hell. But once you get by the smell, man, you got it licked!
OPSEC: Unfortunately, this is just reality. I guess if we civies want to know all the "good stuff", we better be prepared to haul ass down to our recruiting offices and sign up.
Rick B: Once we pass boot camp, when do we get to know the pass word and the secret hand shake? I supopose in Special Forces, they would have a whole book of those! Just kidding, just kidding.
By the way, anyone know the best load for...oops! Sorry.
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:14:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 142.177.54.49)
As a member of the Virginia Army National Guard and a sniper candidate
here in a unit in the Northern Virginia area, I am attempting to learn
all that I can about sniper training. My question is, are there different
classifications of military snipers? Someone recently asked me if I was
a "Class II" sniper, and I quite honestly didn't know how to respond, other
than to say that I was not yet a sniper, but working towards that goal.
nd Iyou tell me anything about the different sniper classifications, if
any?
I am curious to know, is all. Thanks in advance for any information
you might be able to provide me! I think your website is fantastically
laid out with good information, and most importantly, a wonderful goal
for those who are serious and mature military and police snipers and aspirants.
Sincerely,
Warren Gregory
Warren Gregory <kenshaku@pressroom.com
>
Alexandria , Virginia , USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:22:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.249.182.208)
What adjustment or adjustments would you make to your scope to hit a target at 100 yrds if the target lets say is in a train moving 60mph and you are in a smooth riding jeep running parrallel with the train at the same speed. Assuming 1/4 moa clicks and 0 wind .
I remember a year or two ago, Marius I think, used to post questions like this in the form of a game. A lot of fun thinking about this stuff.
Hey Sarge you still shooting Savages?
BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:19:06 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.238.71.233)
Drop the chalupa? Hand me a moon pie! I'll pass on the sheep.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with unconstitutional laws, formerly known as
the, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:31:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.208)
To answer your question about ring lapping... maybe!
The Badger rings are made better than any other ring you can buy,
that’s probably why you bought them.
The Base is made the same exacting standards also.
HOWEVER the good people at Remington might not be quite as picky
as the guy at Badger Ord.
Its like building a house if the foundation is bad, the walls are
not perfect and the roof will suffer too!
If it requires lapping it won’t be much.
Remember install the base after the action is torqued in to the
stock this will pull some of the twist and warp out of the action and minimizes
effect on the mount.
Martin Bordson
Badger Ordnance
Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:34:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.186)
I now am working on another military style fun shoot for the fall. We have 100 acres with a dry creek bed running thru it. We want to develope some sort of event where we gear up in full battle dress and fire from several positions. Some ideas were to be under fire from paint ball shooters, fire on autos, at targets etc.
Any ideas out there that we could work into our shoot? Anyone is
welcome to attend and I will post a date before long.
Mark 303-377-0034
Mark Mason <whacemason@usa.net>
aurora, co, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:09:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.245.2.199)
Mr Bordson, welcome!
Mr Mussack, welcome!
R-C COLAS! MOONPIES! sSSHHHEEEEP! Secret Handshakes and decoder rings
(w/ mildot capability no less!)Damn, what did I miss in eight Duty Roster
deprived hours?
Al O,
I'll let you deal with mrs peteR, PERSONALLY, for that last pix
of the Chalupa, terrified to wits end by,
Retch!
Ugh!
Shudder!
GASP!
That Thing.................
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:37:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.49)
Kevin Mussack is alright. Know him personally. Him and his son attended a course at SMTC during my tenure there. Other than Kevins affinity for the local four legged fair he is good to go:-)
Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178)
I don't know the exact circumstances of the incident you were involved
in, but figure it was probably law enforcement related.
I have seen a few people freeze up under pressure, but generally
have been lucky with the guys who work my precinct, because even though
we have a few boneheads, we never have to worry about getting help from
anyone. Officers on other precincts are not always so lucky.
I think Mike Miller in particular hit upon some good points. One thing in particular was, as he put it, the Me Me Me syndrome. Another thing I have noticed is the school of thought that tries to manipulate image, often by using ambiguous terms that try to make everything seem bright and rosy. Everyone can see right through that. Unfortunately, many higher ups fail to realize that if the function of a unit is squared away, the image will reflect that. The same is true for individuals.
But what to do? No matter how hard we try, there will always be some idiots who fail to realize how serious, sometimes deadly serious, things can get. The only answer is to always do the best you can and set the example for others to follow.
I have served in the military and law enforcement my whole adulthood, and I am firmly convinced they are among the most rewarding professions, but they are also among the most frustrating, almost always due to higher-ups.
I am now 32, and decided a while ago that I would stop worrying about the stupid games that go on. I also decided that I would start acting like the 21 year old infantry Lance Corporal that I used to be. Since then, things have been a lot more fun. Surprisingly, I haven't gotten into any real trouble, either. I guess that is what judgement, which can only come from experience, does.
If anyone gets anything from this post, let it be this;
1. Set the example.
2. If you never fail your team-mates, you'll never fail.
Semper Fi,
Mark Johnson <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.51)
OK I now have a question concerning...Compasses - and you'all thought
I was going to ask about RC Cola and a Moon Pie!
ANYWAY - anyone tried the "new" compass that Timex is putting in
a watch, along with all the other "regular" stuff of course. Supposedly
uses the same technology that the newer in car comapsses use. Good, bad,
indifferent?? Thanks guys.
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:50:42 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.245.243.196)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:04:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.20.198)
AIRBORNE!!!! (at least used to be,thanks to Al)
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:05:55 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.119.19)
Jim M, I'm sorry you had that disappointment with your peers, but when the day comes when push comes to shove, you'll finally know who you can and can't depend on. As a professional soldier of only 22 years, I've learned that birds of a feather flock together. I don't know Gooch or Rick or many of the other service regulars here well at all, but when I met them (after the usual wary circling and figurative butt-sniffing) you can tell if a man is somebody you might be able to trust backing you up, based on first impressions. The whole military and combat arms team is BUILT on trust. The man on the other end of the radio or crypto, or sharing a bordering control line or support platform may be a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine that you'll never meet, or know from Adam. You are trained to trust that the guy servicing your "Danger Close" call for fire, or bomb run, or delivering your beanie-weenies will be there, OR WILL BUST HIS ASS to get there because HE PROMISED and he doesn't want to let you down. Those that always deliver build the reputation as being the guys to call. Those that don't get known as the asset of last resort.
Since so many of our readers have minimal, (if any) military experience
nowadays, I'd like to share one of the things that had a profound influence
on my life as an 18-year old private.
"THE RANGER CREED
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high eprit de corps of my Ranger Battalion.
Acknowledging the fact a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that, as a Ranger, my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be. One hundred per cent and then some.
Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, my neatness of dress and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.
Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word nor will I leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.
Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude and desire to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.
RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!"
Pick your buds and back-ups carefully.
Kevin, the Navy issued Black Hills red box match ammo yesterday at the Atlantic Fleet Rifle Match yesterday, and I assume will also issue the same this coming week for the All-Navy. The label says 77 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match, US Navy Rifle Team. The bullets are NOT moly-coated. The Marines are issuing Black Hills red box 73 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match (Moly coated, but i don't know whose bullet they use).
Bravo, '82.
Sorry for hogging the space.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 13:42:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html
They ask some basic questions.
Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net
or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, CLINTONFORNIA, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 14:41:54 (ZULU)
(your host address: 198.22.121.101)
Rich S. from Bawlimaw: I noticed what you're talking about on MTV.
Writing directly to them does no good at all-they are as red as
they
can get. Write to their advertisers, write to your local broadcaster,
your cable provider, or to your satellite service and request that
MTV is blocked or removed from your service.
'lito: It's Nehi and Moon Pies in the part of the Commonwealth that I'm from ;-)
Thanks,Al S.
Al S. <asimon@gj.net>
The Former Free State Of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:23:31
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.200)
you didn't mention the direction of motion, or the range. traveling
east to west- shooting south to north. ok.
you also failed to mention the velocity of your ammunition. so,
i assume, like the rest of your variables, it is something nice and even
like, say, 3000fps- muzzle and 100yds. downrange (...yeah i know :). so
we got a bullet on the range for .1 second. that gives the shooter and
the target time to move 8.8 ft. to the west. that's 105.6 MOA or 422-423
1/4 MOA clicks, to keep a dead-on hold that is. personally i'd rather use
a dot to find the width of the sections of paneling or molding on the side
of the train and use that to find a hold 8.8 feet to the left- then a right
hander would have to have a spotter to let them know if the subject ducked,
moved, or died of old-age.
i'm not gonna begin to try and deal with the 60mph crosswind you
created when you said that the shooter was travelling too. i think i'd
stop the jeep and let the sear drop sometime before the target enetered
my scope. is that cheating?
is this taking place in bonneville?
am i wearing fresh or threedaycrusty field undies?
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:46:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)
After having shot my Sendero for years I recently received a new HS Precision HTR.... Hailing from "The Last Frontier" and being an avid hunter my rifle puts in alot of time in the field in some miserable conditions... wet, cold, rain, snow...for days to weeks at a time. The only "cover" it receives is when "we" snuggle up next to each other in the tent and hope that tonight won't be the night Mr. Bear decides to come through the tent wall (Happened on the upper Kenai River on a fall duck hunt). After a rifle has been subjected to these conditions, what sort of maintainance should be performed? I'm comfortable w/ proper cleaning and protection of the bore, but what about things like the action? What should be removed and serviced? Should a 'smith do this?
Feel free to email me direct, and thanks for any guidance.
Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 16:05:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.244.184.230)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:16:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.32.221.130)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:34:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Nehi works for me!
Have your dealer order the M70 Sharpshooters direct from Winchester...
not through a distributer... they are between $2000, to $2200.
Call Wincheter, and ask to speak to Leslie in the custom dept...
she will send you information, and tell you what's available, or how long
you have to wait for what you want.
Dr. Kg...
If you and the target are moving together at the same speed, and
direction, the only correction you have to make is for wind, so don't ignore
it. But you need the BC and velocity to get the numbers.
The speed of the train, and jeep (if they are the same) make no
difference.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)
It's been a while! Lots of questions etc. being posted in the Emporium! Anyway - I know everyone here loves the Rem 700 action, and not to start up and old discussion, but does anyone else here think that there is better ( Win 70 maybe ).I would like some of your oppinions on the M70 action, especaily the pushfeed (or I've heard it called positive feed) action.
Thanks much...
Steve
Steve <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 21:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.242)
Actually I am not good at thinking up scenerios for "games" as seen by my lack of complete info for the question, rather I was kinda hoping that Rich or Gooch or someone would pick it up again. Ya know, post winners and give out prizes to whomever gets the monthly question right, ya know like a car or all expence paid trip to hawaii or a hat or somethin. :)
BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 23:22:57 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.238.71.164)
Semper Fi and Good luck!
Ken :)
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 02:19:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.10)
I hate to bring this out here but yes the SS deal did have its start with a small group of snipers out of Pendleton in the early 80's who were fans of the Nazi's. There used to be and may still be a pea brain by the name of John Metzger (I think I spelled it right) who ran a neo-nazi bunch out of Fallbrook. I think it was the White Arian Resistance (WAR). Anyway it was fans of this bunch that started using the lightening bolt SS in tatoos, patches etc. I know that Norm Chandler and others have tried to say that this is not the case but..sorry thats the real deal. I was stationed in 5th Marines at the time and have first hand knowledge of this. I dont think there were too many blatant racial statements connected with the use of the SS but you can't deny that it is the same symbol used by the nazi's. There actually used to be Marines who passed out neo-nazi propaganda at Tallega (Recon Bn) and elseware. I helped get one kicked out of Security Forces in 1990 or 1991.
I am an ardent beleiver that the Sniper Platoons should stay away from the nazi SS symbols, the skull symbols etc. Our fathers and grandfathers DIED to defeat the nazi's and any use of ANY symbol associated with the nazi's is an insult to the WWII soldiers who fought the nazi's.
Snipers should be the most disciplined and mature Marines in the Bn and the only symbol they need is the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. I had an email from a Scout-Sniper in 3rd Marines forwarded to me from a Marine in the USMC Scout-Sniper Association complaining that his Bn was was trying to take away thier "elite" status. What elite status? Snipers are not elite, they are dirty, nasty, ground pounders who are lucky to have been selected for the job. THey support unit commanders just like an Arty FO, FAC or Recon attachment does. ANy move towards elitism will only alienate the commanders and in the long run effect their viability in combat and sensitive "peace keeping" missions.
I fought elitism when units an instructor at Quantico from 82-86 and I still do. A little known fact is that it is this same mentality that helped kill the Marine Raider Bn concept after WWII.
Whew! I'm off the soap box.
Out.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 03:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.163)
i hate to say it, oh Sage, but you're wrong.
Your assertion that so long as both vehicles are traveling (west) at the same speed, speed plays nno affect (save wind) on point of impact, only holds up if the muzzle of the rifle were touching the target. some of you extreme boys may get to play with 100yard barrels, but...
the westward momentum of the jeep carries with it the shooter the
rifle and the bullets in the rounds in the magazine. the momentum is tranfered
through the body of the shooter to the rifle, to anything inside it. the
rifle exerts an amount of force exactly equal to the force involved in
moving IT 60mph westward, on the inside of the right arm of the shooter.
the cartridges exert this same force on the right-hand rail of the magazine-
or chamber. the right-hand inside of the magazine and chamber transfer
the force to carry the cartridges westward at said velocity.
when the bullet is in the barrel it is traveling north at 3000fps,
and west at 88fps, giving it a trajectory greater than 90 degrees off the
plane of the shooter. the inside of the barrel exerts the force necessary
to take the bullet westward at 88fps. once a bullet leaves the muzzel,
however, it's on it's own. with the westerly component of its trajectory
removed (again, in the absense of wind resistance) the bullet will assume
a trajectory of exactly perpendicular to the plane of the shooter.
toss an apple core (or some other piece of bio-degradable refuse)
out the window of your car and it appears to arc backward. it does...a
little bit, that's the wind resistance- the rest is charged to the relative
observation of the driver. sans wind, the core will drop exactly at the
point along the road the car was at when the apple left the driver's hand.
kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.103)
i hadn't looked through the Hot Tips in quite a while, and its really
starting to get some meat, but i didn't see anything on wind.
hate to bring it up in the roster but...
?
kg
kg <kg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:48:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.103)
I've just mounted a 3-12*50 S+B onto an SSG-P.
I wanted to mount the scope as low to the axis of the bore as possible.
The mounts I've used have left clear daylight between the objective and barrel -about half a millimetre or 3 sheets of paper.
Does anyone forsee any problems with such low mounting?
(My 2 niggling doubts are based on:
a. Barrel vibrations during firing -although I doubt that
barrel oscillation near the breech would be large enough to
touch the scope I don't know for sure. Can anyone quantify
this vibration?
b. Barrel warming. Again, at bolt action rates of fire
I cannot imagine that the barrel could expand enough to touch
the scope. Can anyone quantify barrel expansion due to
heating?)
Many thanks
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 09:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
195.92.198.79)
You are in a large aircraft, and traveling at Mach 2, (2200 fps) and shoot forward towards the cockpit, with a .45 auto... does:
A - You shoot the pilot and crash :(
B - The bullet fail to come out of the barrel because it's muzzle
velocity is only 800fps.
C - You shoot yourself, because the bullets comes back at you at
1400fps (2200fps minus 800 fps).
You're in the same aircraft, with a width of 100 feet, and you set up a target on the other side, so now you (and the target) are moving sideways at 2200 fps. You fire your .45 at the target, and:
A - Your bullet hits the target.
B - Your bullet turns sideways and exits the plane's tail at 2768 fps (the speed of the plane + the muzzle velocity x Cosine45degrees).
Your on the ground at a shooting range in Texas, and shooting at a 100yd target, with your .308 SWS rifle... due to the rotation of the earth under you, you and the target are traveling sideways at 600 (880 fps) miles per hour, and you:
A - Hit the target.
B - Miss the target by a factor equal to the time of flight (.1 sec) x the 880 fps... you miss the target by 88 feet.
You pick up the bench and target, and put them on a jeep, and train, and travel at 60 mph (88fps)... at the same time, there is a hurricane, and the wind is blowing in the same direction as you are traveling, so there is no felt wind... you:
A - Hit the target!
B - Miss the target by the amount the train traveled... +/- the speed of rotation of the earth (depending on whether the rotational factor is a positive number or negitive number) x the Cosine of the angle of the train tracks to the rotational direction of the earth, divided by the third order cube, of your grade in high school physics.
If you answered anything but "A" to any of these... you're in deep Doo Doo, and your highschool wants their diploma back, right away.
(spin drift was more fun than this...)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 10:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.50)
You are a sniper assigned to a large space station. This station takes the form of a large, hollow rotating drum, something like in Arthur Clark's _Rendevous with Rama_. For our purposes, we will say the drum is 1000 meters in diameter. The station is rotating in a fashion to where you are experiencing the equivilant of 1 g of pseudogravity. You are required to make a shot on the far side of the station directly opposite of you. The scope is zeroed to be direcly in line with the bore, that is, in the microgravity environment where you zeroed it the bullet strikes exactly 5cm below point of aim at all ranges. We will stipulate that "high" translates to "antispinwise" and "low" translates to "spinwise". Do you:
a) hold "high" owing to coriolis forces.
b) hold "low" to compensate for local pseudogravity.
c) hold dead on because all external forces cancel out.
d) cant know without knowing stations orientation to other gravity wells, ie, is the staion in low earth orbit, at L5 or other Lagrange point or in deep interplanetary space.
e) wheres the freakin' Tylenol?
Extra credit:
Calculate your exact POI and correct dope to put on the rifle, disregarding
any air circulation that the stations rotation may be inducing.
Bonus Question:
A sniper has died and gone to heaven. St. Peter has assigned him
to put a shot on the devil himself. The Devil is dancing at one edge of
the head of a pin. The angel/sniper's hide is on the other edge. Calculate
the shot.
:)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 11:34:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.213.119)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:32:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.116.202)
LAP THEM RINGS, you'll be a better person for it.
Scenerio:
You are a wannabee sniper, you haven't been trained by the Gooch Master yet. You are in the woods bear hunting. You are at the bottom of a 75 degree incline hill and spot a bear at 1100 yards with your super duper mildotted spotting scope. You slowly pull the rifle to shooting position so to not be detected by the mean old bear. At the same time you are pulling out your calculater, milldot master, slope doper and crystal ball. As you fumble through converting all the damn numbers and trig out all the poop, you here this strange sound coming down the hill. As you look throught the scope you notice the bear getting bigger and bigger. You butthole is now puckering. On ten power the bear now covers the entire scope. You still haven't got the correct poop yet. What is about to happen?
A) you hockey in your BDU's cause you aren't yet good enough to figure out all the poop.
B) you start cussing the day you discovered Sniper Country cause you used to be able to look through a duplex reticled scope and figure that the bear was in range and just shoot him.
C)You start yelling GOOCH, GOOCH, GET ME OUT OF THIS MESS!
D)Too late, the bear really looks good in your ghillie suit.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:41:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.190.53)
thanks
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.156)
Oops, sorry, just the one option.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
xx, MI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:48:23 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.89.136.103)
i have to admit i sorta skimmed through your reply, i'll re-read it when i get home from work.
but i think i can help you where your getting messed up on the train-jeep thing. one must remember that even though the two subjects are travelling at the same speed (and in this case the EXACT same speed) their motions are completely independant. in that .1 sec. when the bullet is between when the muzzle and the 100yard line the jeep and train have both travveled westward 8.8 ft. -independant of the bullet or each other. pick up a physics book, i guarantee you'll find i'm right. i understand that when you got your diploma Galileo was going through that whole "Inquisistion" thing, but that doesn't mean it can't still be revoked :)
i'm serious about the wind correction thing. somebody point me at some knowledge or i'm gonna get seriously logic-lagged on this thread.
kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.89)
Back to my OP
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
"Sweet Home", ALABAMA, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 14:05:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.134.175)
Celt: almost, not quite. The reason we build underground shooting tunnels is to negate windage. If you're in an airplane firing from wing tip to wing tip, there is no windage (we assume the plane is pressurized), and no deflection occurs without wind. As the bullet leaves the barrel, mark all forces exerted on it. You'll just get the three (powder, aeriel friction and gravity), nothing pushing it to either side once the plane is in equilibrium. For fun equilibrium case: you've got a balloon in the car for the kid. It's old, and only floating 4" off the roof (not touching). From a dead stop, you accelerate hard (a Ford 351, no doubt!). The balloon goes which way?
I agree, spin drift was more fun, but could be that I'm burned out on rotational motion, vector analysis, classical mechanics, yadda yadda for now. But hey, it's beer money!
Gig 'em Patron "ringknocker" Dave! Thought I sensed a large African field mouse.
Found a source for Lupita Mk4 sunshades if anyone's interested....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com >
The Physics Depot, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 16:12:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.177)
Torsten,
Could you you direct me to Waffen Frankonia on the internet. Everything
I have come up with is in German language. Do they do mailorder? Or is
it even legal for bullets?
Oh, one more thing. Is it an alright idea to use the 1" reducer bushings on 30mm scope rings. Or depending on manufacturer is it ok?
thanks again,
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 20:19:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.100.170.107)
For loctite, use the red, or grade CV adhesive/sealant if you NEVER want it to come off again. To prep the metal (since it's finished), you'll probably need some locquic primer. There are 3 schools of thought on balancing rotating assemblies (pistons, rods, and crank & such) with Mallory Metal. Weld 'em, peen 'em, and Loctite 'em. Loctite WORKS. If you ever want to remove it though, better go to yellow.
Mike: got the sling. Truth to tell, it's WAY better than I thought it would be. Now I know what everyone has been talking about. With this thing, I can loop up WAY faster than with my old leather thing! At the risk of someone calling this a gratuitous plug for Mike's sling, it has to be seen (and tried) to be appriciated. In my book, money WELL spent! I worried that it wouldn't be as "secure" as the leather, but it's GREAT! With it tight on my arm, no slippy, no strechy! Now if I could only get the M1Awesome back and put it on THAT rifle......
I'm gonna shut up for a while, seems to be becoming "Bravo Country"
;-)
Besides, I gotta win Ben Steins money, and bottle these 4 kegs.....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with poor public schools, forerly known as the,
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 22:49:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.240)
Just sewing and waiting for my 338 and 50's to show up. I picked up a scope Swarovski makes for Barrett. It is a 10X with a 30mm tube and 42 Objective and 120 minutes of adjustments. Very nice piece. Super clear optics.
For the guys that have been asking. The scope test has been a huge deal. I will finish the article in mid June and ship it off to Tactical Shooter for possible print.
I will finish an article on the Barrett XM107 about the same time. That will be sent for possible print also. Very neat little 50 Cal. I think the Army made a good choice. For the guys that do not know it, Tony "Airborne" ,who posts here, is one of the main guys at Barrett. Nice guy also.
Damm we have guys from most manufactures and many schools that post here. Very lucky site!
I have one question for the bigt wigs. Why is all the Black Hawk
Bashing going on on the Emporium? I have used products from many manufactures
and buy nylon to make into slings. At the Hathcock Match they gave products,
as I and several other manufactures did. That meant something to me. I
did see that a whole lot of other manufactures did not give anything for
the cause. Size of the company is not an excuse not to give to good causes.
I am a one man show, so is Mil Dot Master and Slope Doper and we gave.If
you guys are so pissed because Blackhawk has many items sewn in Korea strip
off your Nike's and walk barefoot. I will bet you that many other tactical
garment makers use nylon that is brought into the US from Foreign Lands.
The Nylon I use is from the US but I have no idea where the buckles are
made. I just know they are the best I could find for the slings. I do not
think the Emporium is a place to bash someones products and promtes yours
at the same time.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 23:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.201.176)
It has been awhile since my last post...spring time brings foals and calves around here ya' know.
I just bought three Remington 7400 rifles, synthetic stocks, iron sights in my number two caliber...30.06.
Out of the box, they are suprisingly accurate for a WalMart "budget rifle. It most definitely ain't a long range precision marksmanship weapon.
Questions to any who might know ( since I do not have a clue about these rifles )...
Any tips to squeak a little more accuracy out of these rifles?
Any accessories available for these rifles?
By the way... the search has ended for the .300 w/m match round recipe. Any interested parties contact me... keep in mind that these are my findings and that you utilize them at your own risk...kinda a "caveat emptor" thing... also prepare for a little delay in response since I have a lot of chores to do with the new calves and foals ( more feces to cleanup... hey I got kids... they can ern their beans and bacon).
Glocker21 out
Hooch <glocker21@yahoo.com>
Rural, Montana, God fearin' USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 23:45:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 63.28.130.34)
Train Scenerio - 4.28 moa lead for 175gr 2600 fps M118LR. Lito is right, only the wind effect is counted, due to inertia the bullet travels with the train. If the train and jeep were in a vacum then there would be no lead required. It is the same effect of falling bombs from aircraft, only the air drag from the speed induced wind slows the bomb and prevents it from hitting the target dead on. The fun thing is that a 60 mph wind at 100 meters is squat, only 4.28 moa or 4.28 inches or 1.22 Mils for those who use, and love, the mil dot.
Planes, trains and Grizzely Bears!! Oh my!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 00:14:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.193)
Kim and I were arguing about that one today after reading it last evening. She too says that it was the nazi symbol. I of course being hard headed (and nieve) said - nah... it stands for scout sniper...
Okay - so Ken sits down and readies him self for a large plate of
crow - and feels like a f*****g idiot for not associating the SS with the
WWII origins.
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 01:02:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.4)
Yelling Gooch, Gooch, Gooch aint going to do you much good when Grizz is after you because this old boy believes in the old saying "I aint gotta out run the bear, I just gotta out run you."
You guys and this physics stuff.... GOtta be a law agin it.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 01:19:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)
Remember that it takes a heck of a pair of legs that lets a body take a beating! Either that or trip the other guy!
Mike on the new Barret, how is the grenade sound next to the ear? What is the approved technique for lefty shooters? How low can you get with the sucker? That mag looks awfully far back on the stock for any real low shooting. Does the mag on the ground effect cycling or feeding? What was your group soze at 1000? Inquiring minds want to know.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 02:04:59 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.197)
Now that the learned among you have straightened out those simple
physical concepts for the learning impaired (I suppose prudence would dictate
that I follow that with a smiley face) :) ; would anyone be kind enough
to spare a moment to answer my query ref mounting a scope extremely low
-will half a millimetre clearance between objective and barrel cause
any problems?
Thanks
Next, for those who want a theoretical problem to debate, here's one that I've never been able to adequately explain to myself:
At small arms engagement ranges; shooting up or downhill you hold lower than you would if shooting horizontally BUT at artillery engagement ranges you 'hold' higher (ie you ADD the angle of sight to the tangent elevation). Can anyone explain that?!
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 10:50:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.78)
Mmmm, basicaly, what you get is what you get with these guns. The older Reminton gas guns used to be tuneable to a degree and there were gizzies avaialble that could tune how the forend and gas system fitted up, but npt for the newer guns, at least that I have seen. If you are getting reasonable accuacy out of the things then be happy, 'cause they are generaly about 2 MOA shooters in my experience. Also, the gas system is remarkably primitive in these guns so loading flexibility is in the "not very" class-a good stiff load of IMR 4350 can absolutly wreck one. Been there, done that, delivered the bad news to the customer myself. And keep that chamber clean-just a little pitting can be fatal.
Me? I bought a 7600. More accurate, more reliable and dosent care
what powder you throw at it.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 11:33:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.31.213.119)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 11:47:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.119.162)
At the ranges that the rifle shooter is engaging, the shot is point to point, that is... you are shooting "AT" the target, and making minor adjustments to compensate for angle, and you are part of the angle probem... you are in the vally (bad), or up on the hill (good :)...
But with artillery, you deal with very high arcs, and very loooong ranges, so your ranging tables are based on a flat plateau... if you are ranged for a target at 10,000 meters, the fall of shot will intersect the ground (or your level) at 10,000mtrs... but it will also hit closer targets that are higher, and further targets that are lower.
Take a paper, and mark "G" (gun) on the left side, and 10" away,
draw "X" for the target... and squiggle some sort of arc to the target.
Call that 10,000mtrs.
Now, put a new target ("NX") 1" above the old target.
If you squigle a new arc that will intersect the new target, you
find that it hits the plateau about 1.5" behind the old target.
So the reason is... that the artillery ranging "sees" both targets at 10,000mtrs, but the one up on the slopes, needs a 11,500mtr fall of shot to strike it.
How-some-ever... If you had a mountain howitzer, and were slugging it out with the enemy at 2000mtrs, and you were in the vally (bad), or on the peak (good :)... you would be making your compensations the same way as the rifleman.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 12:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.112)
OK! OK! I give people abuse for being learning impaired and immediately word a question badly; I'll try to clarify:
I'll use a 3-4-5 triangle to illustrate my point:
a gun on a beach (altitude 0) wishes to engage a mountain target (altitude 3000) which is at a grid reference 4 km inland (therefore at MAP range 4 km)from which one can work out an initial firing elevation.
One then elevates the gun so that it is pointing at the target (that is apply the angle of sight)and then further elevate it by the elevation obtained earlier (thus I've pointed the gun at the target -like a rifle- and then further elevated in order for it to reach the MAP range measured -unlike a rifle)
BUT (as 'lito correctly asserts):
If this target is at altitude 3000m the actual range to the target is along a 5km hypotenuse (the SLANT range) and therefore we factor in some extra elevation to allow for this extra 1 Km (ie we 'HOLD HIGH')
Conversely:
A rifleman in a valley bottom takes aim at a hill top target (ie automatically applies angle of sight) further applies the elevation for the targets actual range (ie he has measured / estimated the targets actual SLANT range straightaway) BUT then holds low!
AAAAAAAAAAAGH! Having just typed all that; it's all flashed clearly into place! 'lito you're absolutely on the money when you state that it's all a question of scale -how often do arty engage targets at angles of sight of 30 degrees or more -answer: not very! (except -as you again state- mountain guns)
Well I've always said that ritual public humiliation is good for the soul -trouble is that that was self-inflicted!
I shall shut up and join the ranks of the learning impaired!
(You've got to feel sorry for my students!)
I am not worthy, a sorry excuse for.......etc.
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 15:29:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.75)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 19:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.3)
THe deal on the SS thing is that many Scout-Snipers use the nazi looking "SS" as a Scout-Sniper symbol out of ignorance as to its origin.
The National Guard Sniper School used to have an unofficial sniper challenge coin with the "SS" on its back (prior to my days, I assure you). A Special Forces Soldier who had attended the course had one and challenged another soldier in a bar over in Africa somewhere. Someone took exception to the coin and we soon had a top level Department of the Army investigation on our laps. I was at the school by this time and was ordered to undergo "senistivity" training since I was cadre at the school. I responded by stating that I was already sensitive and thats why I prefered a head shot so my target wouldn't have to go through life with a colostomy bag. (That went over big).
We used Norm Chandlers books to show that the "SS" was currently being used as a sniper logo in the USMC and other units and no connection to nazism was intended. HOWEVER, as I stated in an earlier post our viability was damaged and our command had more reasons to doubt our sanity.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 23:56:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.184)
Well, got the K&M Services neck trimmer all set up. Works like
a champ. I was running about .003-.005 run out with my finished handloads.
Now it's more like .001 or less. The nice thing is that I onlt have to
do it once. I saw a post sayng that Varget is too slow for an M1A, I disagree.
It burns very close to what IMR-4064 does. I've used Varget in my M1A and
it shoots and cycles fine.
A note on Nosler J4 competition 168s.
I bought a box of these bullets a few months ago and I was less than
thrilled with them. The Nosler company claims they are as good as SMKs
or better. Well I am here to say that in my rifle they are not. I tried
them in my M1A, custom remington and my .300 Win mag sendero. The best
groups were marginally better than my worst groups with Sierras. When seated
the display a lot of runout where SMKs do not. There were definite blemishes
on the slugs ie. folds in the jacket at the ogive and some bullets themselves
were showing as much as .003" of runout!
I've tried many different kinds of domestic brand match bullets
and find that the Sierras reign as king. Speer 168s are however almost
as good as SMKs but they have about 2 fliers out of a box. I personally
think that Speer 168s are very unappreciated, they are interchangable with
the loads I use with Sierras with only a micrometer to show the actual
difference in group size.
My only regret is that Speer has discontinued their 190gr match
bullet before I could evaluate it. Hornady's 168gr HPBT was the last place
in performance. Best group was .993" at 100yds.
Has anyone tried Lapua match bullets? I understand that they are
very good. They are very difficult to come by as well. I think that Sierras
will be topping all of my match loads for the long while.
Oh, the best group with the Noslers was .679". The best group with the Sierras was .168" this is impotrant for me since 100yds is just a load development distance. It allows me asses bullets for 300yds and beyond.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 03:35:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.124)
As for Nossler's, I found them to be better than Speer, almost identical to Hornady's in my rifle, not the worst, not the best. Guess this just proves something Andre (with the ') was saying. Best in one rifle isn't necessarily best in another. This is only with the 168's, never tried any of their other J4 offerings. Gonna try the Lapua's as soon as possible though. My previous hi-power partner SWORE by them, but bought Sierra's, which I agree are the KING until I find something better. Gonna try those Bergers too when I get the chance.
Please note that I'm not setting myself up as an expert, just passing on what info I got from "the experts". Hey, we ALL have to get our info from somewhere! I figure it's their bullets, might as well ask them. BTW, he also said that the bearing surface on the 175 is actually slightly shorter than the 168. Got the numbers that were quoted if interested.
Mr. Gooch: This troubles me greatly. To think that there are current
American troops and soldiers that either don't know or actively WANT to
be associated with the Waffen SS. What percentage do you figure KNOWS what
they're doing versus those that just think it looks cool, and have never
had any reason to think it might be an almost 50 year old symbol? Ignorance
I can most always forgive, socialism is another animal all together, and
one that should be terminated with extreme prejudice on sight! I should
note that I do not in any way equate German with Nazi. We've had our "bad
apples" too, current administration and goons not withstanding. God help
us since we haven't learned our history lessons.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Welcome to "Bravo country", part of the banana republic formerly known
as the, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 04:55:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.130)
peter <18c@excite.com>
norwell, ma, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 05:05:33 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.214.84.35)
Luso.
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 08:42:59 (ZULU) (your host
address: 194.65.14.68)
Luso; Not sure what your having the problem with on your 4.5X14X40
just want to say that's real rare to have any kind of problem with
one of them. Why not try to resolve it with Leupold? They are quite
good about their lifetime warranty. IF the scope is new there might
be a dealer involved in this somewhere. IF I had a customer with
a
bad Leupold I'd trade it out with him knowing that Leu would fix
it.
Their warranty is transferable. Maybe you should tell us more about
the prooblem, never heard of such a thing as an unsquare ret. in
a
Leupold. What is the visual effect? Where are the adjustments u/d
setting in reference to their maximum positions? are you talking
error between dots or overall length of horiz vs. vert.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:10:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
I have a question regarding painting up kit. I know that these sorts of questions are often asked and hope I don't bore anyone. Reference has been made on the site to 'bowflauge', however this is not available over here (not allowed to hunt with bows for starters !). Any recommendations for normal paint types and suitable primers would be appreciated.
Cheers, Dom
Dom <LethbridgeDP@cf.ac.uk>
Cardiff, UK - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:43:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
131.251.0.8)
Cheers,
Luso.
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:53:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 194.65.14.68)
On the Waffen SS thing, I went through a similar experiance that
Mista Googh went through with Command stepping in and telling us what naughty
boys we were, the individuals in one of out teams that were using this
logo knew well what it meant, but they thought , hey, it's a cool logo.
Needless to say, our CO put their balls in a wringer and we had
to have the Battalion wide "Briefing" on using the SS logo.
Thus you have a political issue that surrounds a group of people who are already looked at with intense scrutiny.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:59:36 (ZULU) (your host
address: 12.28.201.160)
Thanks for the credits on the Model 700LTR .260 Rem attempt.
Really its you, TorF, Torsten, Jeff A., Bill(CHOP THAT BARREL!)Rogers, that got me interested in the idea. I still feel that it would probably be the "Cats Meow" for a Universal Tactical/Hunting rifle.
A SUPER balance of weight, power and pinpoint accuracy.
Ahhh we can only dream.................
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 14:46:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.46)
Has anyone bought a copy of Stewart Wilsons long range sim. It looks like a great basic sim trainer and maybe just what I need to get a handle on this mil dot thing. I thought I understood it till I used the l/r demo. God, I must be the dummest brick in the yard! ARRRRRRGGG
Can they actually sell that sim in Kalifornia....and get away with it.
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Republic of Texas, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 14:49:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.196.109.146)
I have an ancient RCBS trigger pull guage thats not the most accurate
thing in the world.
Any recomendations on what to go with to upgrade, make, model, and
where to buy would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 15:09:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 165.83.118.152)
Get the Chatillon weight gauge in 12 lb. capacity through Brownells.
The are Expensive, but well worth every penny. Mines worked super for over
15 years!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 15:26:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.59)
Hanging Head in Shame
Kevin <kevmich@cadision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 17:43:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.131.114)
Thanks.
jonathan <jgleason@gunder.com>
- Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:18:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)
My Rem 700 pss is going to be pressed into service to kill two adult male wild boar that have been destroying an enormous number of seedlings on a piece of private agricultural property in Northern California. I have been issued the necessay depredation permit by the DFG.
I normally fire Federal Gold Medal thorugh this rifle to good effect (average of .7 MOA.) The barrel has been set back and rechambered, and the action trued. The rifle is otherwise unmodified.
Any insights into a more appropriate round for use on medium sized (estimated at 2575lb) game with thin skin and heavy bones appreciated. Of particular interest would be any information regarding Nosler ballistic tips (recomended by a local guide.)
Thanks in advance.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:54:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)
Thanks.
My Rem 700 pss is going to be pressed into service to kill two adult male wild boar that have been destroying an enormous number of seedlings on a piece of private agricultural property in Northern California. I have been issued the necessary depredation permit by the DFG.
I normally fire Federal Gold Medal through this rifle to good effect (average of .7 MOA.) The barrel has been set back and rechambered, and the action trued. The rifle is otherwise unmodified.
Any insights into a more appropriate round for use on medium sized (estimated at 2575lb) game with thin skin and heavy bones appreciated. Of particular interest would be any information regarding Nosler ballistic tips (recomended by a local guide.)
Thanks in advance.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:57:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)
Ken
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 23:52:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.4)
CJ
Cayley J Carson <t18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 00:14:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 38.30.157.185)
Str8 - I agree with Pat on that JB stuff. Great once in a while or when for some reason the barrel shoots like crap. Not for everyday use, think in terms of valve GRINDING compound. Not as coarse but just as damaging over the long haul if over used.
Peter - The qualifications on correctable to 20/20 allows many a good shooter and fieldcrafter to be snipers. It is used only as a "discriminator", now that is a non PC word! If I have two snipers of equal qualification and everything is equal, one wers glasses and the other does not, then the one that does not gets picked. That is what is meant by the discriminator non PC word. Yes it does discriminate but I wasnt the "best chance" of the mission being accomplished, not if I hurt someones feelings. However, most of the guys wearing glasses know it is a discrimnator, just as smoking, devil handed (lefties for you guys who think in the PC terms), color blindness, to an acceptable degree, cross dominance, stuttering, and any other problem that does not stop but may hinder. I know of several individuals that are left handed, smoking fools that wear glasses and never have a cup of coffee beyond hands length, that will put a hurt on you at 1000 and not bat an eye.
Gooch - Trust me the SF guy knew and was being a butt head. Should have got his butt kicked for coining with that symbol. We are drilled over and over again about what is and is not acceptable "symbols" for public and overseas consumption. That sensitivity training is a semi annual thingy for us. Cripes it can be boring after the 6th to 7th time through.
Time to cut and run, have fun guys and hold hard.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 00:44:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.184)
I would tend to go along with Bill Rogers on the 168gr. A-Max. Since they are boars I don't imagine you'll be able to eat them due to the strongness of the meat. Should be good for pepperoni! I don't know how the thickness of their skull compares to a domestic hog; but most of the farmers around here use a .22LR and pop them between the eyes. Of course they aren't worrying about tusks and nasty dispositions.
Good hunting,
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The springtime Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 01:01:33
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.94)
Thanks
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
lookin' for a computer job, in south west PA, USA - Tuesday, May 16,
2000 at 03:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.233)
I have been using JB in my old M4, my M4A1, C7's and my 700 (plus
my Browning P-35 etc.) I was always using Sweets 7.62 then JB then Sweets
- and was having no problems that I noticed. - Not a Good Idea I take it?
I must then appoligize for the bum steer I gave Str8shot.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 04:25:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.130.43)
Situation :
Me and a friend of mine are in constant conflict regarding the choice
of the components that make a good sniper rifle. Those components (that
we are arguing about) are not in the caliber and the barrel lenghts, etc,
but on the actual cycles that the weapon and the shooter have to go through
to successfully fire the weapon in combat conditions. Following is a typical
exchange of arguments :
Him : Bolt action
Me : Semi-auto
Him : I would like to see you crawling around to pick up your brass
after you fire so as not to leave any trace of your presence
Me : Wow... that is a wonderful ghillie suit you made for yourself.
Try moving your arm when working the bolt to reload your rifle under that
thing when everyone has trained scopes/binoculars all over the place looking
for you. Remember human eye mechanics (locking on movement) ? Try that
and I am sure that somebody will oblige to send a sixpack of high-arc,
parabolic trajectory 155mm budweiser your way.
Him : Bolt actions shoot better groups that autoloaders.
Me : I prefer to have the option (and probably never use it but
still like to have it) of being able to plant 20 .308 caliber rounds in
something the size of a human heart within 28 seconds at a range of 700
meters than being able to fire 5 rounds in 30 seconds in something the
size of a human eyeball at the same range. There comes a point when we
are talking about groupings that gain nothing more that bragging rights
with no real world difference (talking about purely military application
here, not LE/SWAT situations).
Him : Bolt actions are more durable.
Me : For the number of years that I was issued an H&K G3/SG1
in my home country in Europe, the thing fired after being immersed in water,
sand, mud and rotting foliage and never had a misfire.. ever ! There were
a couple of times, in field exercises, that I had to sink 3/4 of my body
in a puddle, hold a low and wide bush between my thighs and another one
next to my head to avoid detection with the rifle cozily resting in 9 inches
of mudwater. Guess what, your point is void.
Most of the times, my ending argument is that however you look at it, the objective is the same: Plant a nail on a wall. The best hammer is the one that you know how to use best to make the most efficient possible job with it while in your hands.
In any case. The arguments go on and on and.... on....
Any late night takers that have the time and inclination to care to philosophise about the issue and throw in their 2 cents ?
AresP
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 06:22:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.223.224)
KK G - 3 A 3 conversion to Semi !
now the other way around is the more common question ! ; )
I have seen simple spot weld´s on the outside of the trigger housing, but if you would take out the trip bar , the one on the right side of the trigger tub, that should do it permanantly. You may have to install a small washer or just cut the top portion of the lever off, grind it to shape and leave it in position as a spacer.
To be 100 % sure also remove the metal trip in the bolt carrier bottom that trips the sear with a dremel tool.
Now if full auto is Rock n´Roll, I would say happy Hip Hop Earl !
t
"Ende"
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 11:01:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.207)
Semi versus Bolt gun: Dude why not just blast with a tank and call that sniping. If you can not do it with one round you are not sniping you are blasting. If you think you are going to keep troops off you with a 20 round semi you are dreaming. They see, or find you and you are gone. trick is not being caught not blasting. I have shot all the semi snipers I could get my hands on and none will shoot as well and/or as long as a good bolt gun. Even that 1200.00 US PSG1 can not keep up with a decent 2000.00 bolt gun, plus it weighs as much as a LAW Rocket! Enough of this.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 14:05:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
M - What's my Mission?
E - What Equipment do I have available?
T - What Threat do I face?
T - How much Time do I have available?
T - What Terrain do I have to cross/hide in or behind/ or control?
P - Politics: what happens if I screw this up on CNN? Does my country/city/department fail if I miss or just wing the bad guy? What innocent dies? Is it my own family? Is it me and my spotter?
There is no fixed, perfect solution, or single, do-it-all weapon. The moment you say "That's it, that's the perfect machine," someone like Andy Webber or a hundred other real techy gunsmiths makes something just a little bit cheaper, better, lighter, sexy, or more accurate.
Snipers are supposed to be THINKERs and TEAM MEMBERs. There will
always be the very, very few singletons like Hathcock, Mawhinney, and Waldron,
but I'd venture the best teams are the shooter-spotter pairs that read
wind, shoot, and mutually protect. And, by the way, most military guys
shoot what they're issued (some get issued more tools from which to choose
from to meet the missions they've been tasked with).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 14:47:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Now to Mike AND Patron Dave: I'm gonna "what if" you here. What if the semi auto weighed about the same as a M-40 full up, and delivered 1/2 MOA? I realize that 1/2 MOA isn't what you guys call great, but I would assume that it's passable, about like a PSS?
Not that I disagree, what I have I call a "spotters rifle", and think that it's almost perfect for that purpose. Besides, it's easier to look for a sniper (with a bolt gun) to team with than a spotter.
And while we're at names here, I'm gonna state a "policy" of mine.
A M1A is by definition a Springfield, but I hate calling it that. If a
hypothetical friend lost his testicles in a terrible industrial accident,
I wouldn't start calling him Alice. Therefore, just because there isn't
a selector on my M1A, I'm gonna call it a M-14 type or more specifically
a M-25, if I'm not calling her by her name.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000
at 17:55:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 18:43:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.180.5.16)
If you're looking into NV sights for rifles count your blessings you aren't in Ca. Here it is illegal to have any night vision device on a firearm that projects it's own invisible light source, like the mounted IR lights designed to extend range or allow use in complete darkness. Ca. law from what I understand only allows scoped NV rifles to be completely star light dependent. A local gun dealer lost his FFL license a couple years back because he was selling restricted NV scopes that had IR sources built into the sight design.
For civ. use the FFC limits lasers to 5milliwatts I believe. The FCC puts them in to a Class order with civilian stuff being ClassIII type lasers. When selecting a visible laser go for whatever has the lowest wavelength as it will be more sensitive to the eye than the higher wavelength units. A 635nm wavelength seems to be the lowest I've ever seen a company go and it is said to appear to be 10 times brighter than a 675-680nm wavelength of equal power level. Getting up into the 830nm area and the laser goes into the IR spectrum if I remember correct.
What is really interesting is some time ago while I was surfing some
scientific sites on the web I found a laser kit designed to make a green
laser. It used what they called a wavelength "halfing" technique that got
the wavelength down into the mid 300nm length for a nice green laser. The
unit wasn't one of the gas lasers that take up a lot of space either, it
was a pen type unit that was solid state. The price of the stupid thing
was about 400 dollars or more though and making it into a weapon sight
would be a trick I'm sure. The whole reason I entertained the idea of making
it into a weapon sight is the fact that if a 635nm appears to be 10 times
brighter than a 680nm at 3mv then what does a 350-375nm laser look like
at 3mv? It would probably be a true daylight laser. I can't find the darn
thing anymore though, it's been about 2 years since I saw the laser kit
and I haven't seen it in recent attempts trying to locate it again.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, CA , USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 19:40:56 (ZULU) (your host
address: 136.168.218.50)
Kevin - You are right on the NRA High Power events, they were originally military oriented until the rich and infamous began gaiming it way back when. That is why there is the army service rifle events and even they are now being gamed to death. Actually sounded like you did pretty good with the equipment yuo are working with. Now if you had the 6.5s with the 30 incher and all the rest, then yeah you would have been in competition with them. As it was you didn't have a chance man!
MIKE!!! - PSG-1 (Also known as the Piece of S**t gun - 1) Why would anyone buy an over priced, heavy, blow back weapon that has a bolt that requires the patience of Job to re-assemble? Man you gave me a heart attack with that comment! I'll never forgive you! OK I'm breathing again. Sorry, lost my head there for a moment. SNIPE WITH A LAW!! Us the 57mm RR. Cool gun and has the signature of a main battle tank. On the 50s, no sweat. I got an email with alot of the info from that Murfeesboro dude!
Don - SS symbols are not worn openly at all anymore. Reason they were worn before was that many did not know of their significance. Those that did thought it was cool that they got away with it. Even tattoos are now inspected and any that are on the list of "opps" are removed from the body or the soldier is removed from the military through quality management measures (passed over for promotion this is a carreer ender). There is NO PLACE in the military for that crap. Our fathers fought those idiots, as did many German fathers. Let not their lives be in vain for the fancy of a punk that knows not his true heritage.
Chopper - what the hell you want an IR laser aim point for? So that the cop, or his partner, can't see you designating his cranium as your next shot? Gee, maybe that is why they are restricted sales. I think that that company has a policy of not selling theirs. Not knowing the company, I don't know which aimpoint you are talking about and some are not totaly eye safe. I do know that some companies do have IR lasers for sale to the civilain world. Again why? You need goggles to see the dam thing and that causes all sorts of shooting problems. You need two eye pieces so one is focused close and the other far for movement and shooting. You will "hunt for the dot" instead of just aligning on target and letting him hold a chunk of lead. These are problems and the reason most LEA and the military goes with white light, oh yes, forgot about that screwing up you seeing the IR designator. Go white light and forget the fancy crap.
Got way too long winded this time again. Guess I will have to learn how to curb the babble.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 19:53:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.12.104.151)
Anybody tried that "Diamondback Como?" Saw it on some hunting channel.
Tell you this, Nature don't build much better than Diamond Back
for hiding. If it doesn't turn dark at long range I can't think of anything
better to blend in. That old addage "Watch for Snakes" is a
real oxy moron. You don't see a Back till he moves or rattles unless
he's in the middle of the highway. Looked great of course in their ads
but I suspect it's the ultimate desert or any ground camo. It just kind
of gets lost... like autuum leaf. Out to be better than tree bark too.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 20:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 22:31:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.135.153)
IR aiming systems work quite well on CQB weapons, and can also be very effective on some crew-served weapons. They have no good points for sniper ops, and more than a few bad points. Standard night vision scopes ( I rather like the Elcan Blackcat ) with a reticle give you a better aiming point without the possibility of detection or blockage, and are much less prone to failure.
I've got an IR laser on a suppressed MP5 that works great when operating with NV goggles, but that's a completly different role than a sniper.
Cory Trapp
SAS Products
Class II
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 22:54:14 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.14.189.73)
Bravo, does this semi you are talking about come with swamp land? Seriously, in 1981 I approached a Military Smith and asked him to turn my M1A Super Match into a sniper rifle. He walked into the back of his shop and came out with a McMillan Built M40 and said "You owe me my cost on this. You want me to sell this piece to cover it?" Well I switched then and there and never looked back. Ask the guys at Storm where I was hitting the targets from the towers all week and tell me I made a mistake.
I used a M1A to win a Gold Medal in High Power in the Police Olympics, but that is just game play, not my life on the line. If I think I am going to need an Assault Weapon I am taking my M4/M16 and running like hell. As a matter of fact I would take my light bbl Car15/16 shorty over a clanking pistol anytime
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 00:57:53 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.197.31)
Now, I understand that the bolt on the Rems (or Wins, whatever) is a solid nice piece, but what about the trigger? Seems to me (UNEDUCATED, NOT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCED) that the triggers on these rifles wouldn't be up to the service that youse guys are talking. Do the Timneys, Jewels, factory Rems, etc stay working good after being through NASTY outdoors? Do you guys use something along the lines of the factory Mauser triggers on your "for real" sniper weapons that see service in the mud and muck? I mean, the trigger assembly on the M-14's and like are tremendously robust and tremendously easy to clean thoroughly. Not that I'm trying to make a case that anyone is wrong, just interested in LEARNING what I obviously don't know.
I'm just wondering what I'm looking at. After all I just MIGHT have
to get a bolt gun TOO. Don't think I could trade off the M-25 without copious
blood loss though. The thing is just TOO good as a battle rifle. BTW, extremely
little swamp land in high desert plateaus of Utah ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
liberty? what liberty?!, You're in the new, USA - Wednesday, May 17,
2000 at 03:41:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.210)
As a moderatly skilled and experienced armorer on guns both gas and bolt, allow me to say this: everybodys right. And wrong too, of course. :)
First, not all gas guns are created equal. I cant comment on PSG-1s
(and at that price-point, who the hell cares anyway) but I can say that
the M1-A/M14 dosent cut it as a precision rifle under field conditions,
period. Unless you have a rather high-echelon armorer with a bag full of
goodies tagging along with you, that is. Just too much stuff to go wrong,
too many of the stunts you have to pull are too fragile to hold up in the
woods. Its all chewing gum and bailing wire compared to how a bolt gun
is set up. To me a tuned M14 with a low-power scope is a solid spotters/DM
rifle (if you think 7.62 NATO is the way to go for a spotter/DM rifle,
but I digress) because not only is it quite accurate while the accuracy
lasts, but when the spell has worn off and it starts shooting like a rack-grade
M14 again, it will still be accurate enough to fulfill that mission pretty
well. But real precision work on a day-in, day-out basis? Not for me, thanks.
I talked to two Scout-Sniper qualified MPs from Camp Lejune about a year
ago, when they were fresh back from a set of trials up at Quantico as part
of the selection process for the Designated Marksmans rifle. They shot
M14s will every trick known to man and the Corps pulled on them and they
were totaly, totaly unimpressed. Something having to do with the zero wandering
as the temperature changed over the course of the morning...
Now, on the other hand, I havent fiddled around with a Knight but
I have shot an Armalite AR10-T a fair bit now and I have to say its pretty
impressive: a solid sub MOA shooter that dosent do wierd when it get hot.
It just keeps banging them in there. Furthermore, it has all of the same
basic attributes as its 'lil brother, the M16. Once you get those things
into NM tune, there isnt much to go wrong with them. I understand that
the big ARs are a bit more finiky but thats just a matter of debugging:
the fundamental relationships between the parts are the same. The same
MPs also had shot an Armalite AR10 variant at some point, officialy or
otherwise. They seemed to have a fair bit of respect for it. I didnt have
time to discuss the matter in depth, but you got the impression that they
thought it an honest, decent rifle, in any event. That tells me that they
at least thought it had potential. Of course, the Corps went with the M14
in the end, much to the dismay of the Chandler brothers, those MPs and
a lot of other folks.
As for tactics and doctrine, I am not nearly as qualified to speak
as others here, but I will say this: the assuredness with which one takes
a side on this debate should be directly proportional to the accuracy of
ones crystal ball. Different shooters have differing doctrines to suit
their differing missions and hopefuly they get to draw the equipment to
match, but you can't tell me that they cant run into a situation where
they make one choise and then when they get out on a real-world operation
where they wouldnt wish to *hell* that they had made the other choice...God,
if I only had had the time to get off the second shot...God, I wish could
have put that one in a *little* more precisely...You pays your money and
you takes your chances.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 04:06:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.163.36.207)
S chutz S taffel = protection squad
Please note the difference between those that were voluntary members
of the original political SS (black uniform, with the flag on the arm,
the ones you see on TV).
And those that were drafted into the Waffen SS (field gray with
eagle on left arm).
Two different pairs of shoes here, but the same insane management.
Not trying to come up with exuses, just giving info in the light of the scout sniper symbol ignorance.
t
"Ende"
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
G3ermany - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 07:18:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.19)
You would have to aim to the left and right as well as up and down. Your bullet will travel in a spiral path due to the very significant corolis forces. Since there is no gravity, just a constant accelleration vector, your shot would continue at a tangent from the location it was fired from (since the spinning station would not continue to accellerate the bullet). To look at it another way, you are laying on your back on a huge, very speedy merry go round. When you shoot directly into the air your bullet will travel straight up from where you shot it with a horizontal componant equal to your horizontal velocity. Just like if you spin a rock on a string and let go. To throw it ahead of you, you have to let go when the string is streched out to either side of you (depending on the direction of it's spin). However, if you were really cool you could simply jump really high and then aim at the target as you would a target moving in a circular fashion.
Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
Manhattan, ks, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 10:22:25 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.189.101.130)
Mike and Chopper - I am having a lousy time with humor here lately. Guess the grumpy old man side of me didn't allow the humor show. Those statements were in jest and ws not meant as slams. Guess I am put back on joke probation again.
Bravo - You can have alot of fun with your M21/25. Just don't expect it to hold the same once you get it into a field environment. While that sucker will keep on shooting, as will the G3, it will not be as acurate and each time the accuracy disolves to where you then have an M14. Life sucks but hey, it makes a hell of a battle rifle! :-)
Got to go guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 12:12:39 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.104.154)
Yours,
Joe Jones
Joseph H. Jones <jhjones@lsil.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 14:28:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 147.145.40.41)
Enjoyed the physics, just remember...well there's really no simplifying it. You want the projectile to end up where the target will be, and you have to figure all the forces that act/will act on it over time untill it get's there. On the space station you are firing in a perfect enviroment at a target that will move away from your point of aim in an arc "upward" as it continues to be forced to orbit about the center of the cylinder. Oh well, get a basic physics book for tons of examples that really open the eyes; then run them through your calculator to find out how little affect they have on (most) real-life distances and situations.
Just a quick note on where to find "million" "mom" "march" information. Try freerepublic.com.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3920a6f87297.htm
This thread contains pictures -somewhere there's an article about
exactly who the organizer is. Not to spoil the punchline, but she's a big
Hillary supporter and former Democratic Senator's manager. (that's spelled
"housewife" by the major media)
Chris
Chris <cmw@tiac.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 15:08:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.32.77.9)
It is the FDA that does regulate infared night vision that can damage the eye of an unknowing viewer, several sources told me. I am an attorney and tried to find the specific regulation on the computer but after wading through tons of regs on lasers, etc., I stopped since I did not have time to continue. However, Rich Urich of Excalibur has posted more than once about this reg, and John Norrell, who I work for refinishing, assured me this is the case.
I have had an IR laser years ago that I used with night vision but in recent years, I have simply used 3rd gen top quality equipment without sighting with a weapon. I have a $3,500 unit for sale now, in fact, as I often get this kind of gear through Norrell to play with and have found that while using an IR laser is fun, you can also simply get a regular laser and have the factory reduce its power so as to not damage night vision, as another alternative now that IR units are unavailable.
rtschiemer@aol.com
RTschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
conway, ar, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 16:50:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.176)
Jim D: sure, a mini-14. Why not? I've heard that they're fragile,
but mine (an origional 180 series) hasn't ever broken anything. From the
factory, accuracy stinks. If you need the name of a good smith for one,
I can get it to you. He'll put a good barrel on it (unfortunately increasing
weight some) and you've got a rifle that will put groups at 100 yards you
can cover with a quarter or smaller. The rear aperature sucks bad, and
I've not found a good replacement yet. Been kicking around the idea of
scoping a ranch version, as it wouldn't use the aperature anyway.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 17,
2000 at 17:46:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Thorsten: I will take the M14 as an 308 semi rifle over the G3 sorry. I would take the FAL over either. I would take the AR15 over all of them.
Rick, no offense. I was going for the reverse humor on you and I
failed.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 19:53:59 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.196.38)
.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
got a lot of cases to prep, and load in a short amount of time, USA
- Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 01:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.11)
~David
David <dp250@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 02:52:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.79)
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 03:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Scott is TC on a M1a2
TorF
Snipers
Scott Cunningham
04/24/2000
3:22:08 PM
Refers to Reply#69869.
Remember that the sniper will have a chance against a TC, but he is shooting at a head sized object from some distance away. Also, the tank may be moving. While it is not an impossible shot, and a TC might actually have more of his body exposed (especially on the M1 where you have to ride way out to see over the .50 cal) it will still be a very tough shot.
Second point: the sniper better make damn sure that he takes out the TC on the first shot as he will never get a second. As soon as the bullet impacts that tank will start looking for the sniper. Most infantry (snipers included) have utterly no ide how a thermal sight works and will quickly be turned into a fine aerosol mist as the tank sends a HEAT round into the snipers camouflaged (but not thermally protected) hideout.
Once again, I will stress that a sniper can kill a TC, but the argument
is similar to a PT boat vs a Battleship debate. If ALL goes perfectly the
sniper may kill a TC. If ANYTHING goes wrong he will probably pay for his
error with his life.
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 10:45:28 (ZULU) (your host
address: 193.212.93.33)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 10:52:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.22.165)
Okay Roster Hogs - sorry for any spotty connectivity late last night ---- doing some connectivity work....should make things move along a little bit faster for youn'z
Ken :)
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 11:06:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
thats why they make diffrent flavors for us !
I have a M14, lots of G-3,A3´s in the arms room, and even one of those recycled Dr. Pepper cans you call AR 15.
I still like the taste of my G- 3 best, but I´d sure like to have the AR sights on it, and the M14 stock length.
Maybe some cool whip too !
On the tank commander deal,
If its a hit and the guy drops into the turret bleeding or without a heart or head then his crew is gonna get out of dodge fast. If its a miss I doubt that with all the noise and his intercom on the TC will even notice.
good point on the thermal camo conciusness though.
just my 2 Pfenning.
t
"Ende"
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 11:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.156.8.150)
If the Shooter is behind a berm, or ridge, (and not sitting out in the open with a wookie suit), and the TC droppes back into the tank... the "Thermal" sighting equipment isn't gonna help... and though the tank is a rolling fort, it has it's weak points.
In Afganistan, the Ruskies couldn't get out of the tanks to take a wizz, or make chow... they were prisoners in their own tanks. They showed their head, and it was bad.
I think Torsten had it right... If the TC falls into the tank bleeding, or dead, they're gonna button up and look around... if they don't see where the threat is coming from damn fast, they're gonna run til they can work out a plan.
The lone shooter (or pair) has a terrific advantage IF they know how to use terrain, and have good training, and know when NOT to shoot.
I think that there is a tendency to fit the "sniper" into one scenario, with one weapon, against one type of target, and assume that anything else, or any other weapon won't do, won't work.
If I were a sniper in Somalia, I'd rather have a M14-M21 then a M24 bolt gun... and we got creamed by hoards of untrained riff-raff (yeah, I know... the politicians too).
But there are many weapons that fit many different game plans...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:10:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.61)
The mount on the .50 M2 is the one piece Unertl "Bridge mount", screwed to a metal block, and attached to the M2...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:18:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.61)
Hats will be back in stock in a few days so thank you for your patience.
Scott Powers
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:24:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.71.86.73)
The gun shop is having raffles galore and I'm gonna go down and throw
a couple more tickets into the box for the Glock G36 that they are raffling
off(a couple actually). There are also reps. from Benelli, Leupold, RCBS
and one other that I can't remember right now.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 21:19:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.93.179)
DM vs SS (Not nazi's)... Nope, we wore that one out. I'm just not
so sure that the line of separation is all that sharp as it has been in
the past.
If you are in a given service, and a slotted shooter, then your
job may be narrowly defined... but on a site like this where their is military,
and LE... and in an environment where most troops are training for mixed
area combat roles... Well, you know what I mean!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 23:18:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.61)
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:33:27
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.132.161)
DM vs Sniper - This is a matter of mission and not name. In the scenerios I've seen on the roster, it would be up to the sniper to match the right hammer to the right job. Who would use a brass mallet when a sledge is required or better still who would use a hammer when a nail gun would be faster and appropriate, ask Norm of the New Yankee Workshop. To argue that one gun is better than another all the time is not going to ever work. There are times when the bolt gun is the required tool, there are times when a fast shooting M4 is the required tool. There are times, to include Africa scenerio, when both are required. Try taking out some low life using a human shield at 300 meters with a weapon designed to take down the human wave attack. But that weapon to take down the human wave will be needed to protect the whole. One is for more steel on target and the other is for the surgical under adverse conditions. You can't have one without the other, just match the tools with the requirements. My arguement is that the semi, in it's present form, will not replace the bolt gun for that surgical. That bolt gun will not hold terrain though and it can not be decisively engaged. That is its big weakness. Though with proper planning and assessment of the situation, the sniper can put a package together that will prevail.
Got to go guys have fun for th next couple weeks. I will be thinking of you guys AND "gals" (?what is the accptable word now days?) while I go on my vacation.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:47:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.183)
High Power Question: Am I suffering paralysis by analysis, and using up a perfectly good barrel testing loads? I plan to chase some leg points this summer, and I would like NOT to LOSE them at 600.
Dave Liwanag, 'Lito, UnDude & company, do you guys think I am
expecting too much out of my 600 yard AR load? It consistently groups just
over 3.00" for 10 shot groups with open sights at 300 yards off sandbags.
(The distance I test all loads at initially. I will shoot it at 600 this
weekend.) My scope mount is FUBAR, so I have to rely on the iron sights
right now. Maybe our AMU guy (sorry, I forgot your name) can help me out,
what do you consider an acceptable group for a 600 yard AR15/M16 load?
As a point of reference, I have a 77gr Sierra load for 200 & 300 that
I can keep 10 shots in 2.5" at 300 off of sand bags.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
Paralysis by analysis, in south west PA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000
at 04:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.218)
And Kevin of the North: I'm also a big beleiver in a pistol as well.
Not so much for necessity as the psycological comfort it gives. I KNOW
what kind of a pistol shot I am, and I KNOW what kind of a rifle shot I
am. So I love the pistol, and will give Mike a "teaching challenge" :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Oh, I wish I lived in the land of liberty, but I guess I have to settle
for the, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.200)
I love my M1A, but the groups open up when the bbl gets hot. Plus,
after 2 Mudville matches in the rain, I am going to have Jerry Rice redo
a M700 I have recently purchased. You don't need to be in the bush for
several days to see the difference between the two systems. One rainy Mudville
will convince you. The "beast" funtioned flawlessly, but when that flaky
gravel that is on the firing line sticks to you, your scope, and all over
your weapon, you see the light.
Spud,
Semper-Fi!
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 06:45:14
(ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.68)
I have decidade to trade my Leupold Tactical Vari III 4.5-14 40mm
for another scope.
It may be a Kahles 6x42 K-ZF95 Mil-Dot or a Schmidt und Bender 3-12x50
Police Marksman P-1 Bryant.
My Leupold has a mil-dot reticle so I know what to expect but the Bryant reticle is unknown to me (its capabilities).
Finnaly my main goal it to aquire a scope with the better build quality and rugedness.
Could you please be so kind to help me with your expertise?
Thank you.
P. Marcos
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
Lusitania - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
194.65.14.68)
We agree on the bolt v. Semi thing (same page of music again ;)... and you said it well.
Bravo Dudeski!!...
Yes, it's your fault!... and Hathcock's spotter carried a 14 also,
and did it prowd in "Elephant Vally"... each gun's attributes supporting
the other, to the major dismay of the enemy!
If the world goes to hell in a hand basket, and they're burning down the houses on the next street, you can plop your raggity-assed M1A on my porch any time ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:25:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.105)
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:57:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.26.196)
http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html
An extremely well done spoof on a well known official. Be patient
with it - it takes about 5 minutes for the whole show...
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:15:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html
An extremely well done spoof on a well known official...Be patient
with it - takes about 3 to 4 minutes for the whole show.
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:17:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
*******************************************
Anyone seen this? Is it true? Is DoD returning to the practice of
not practicing marksmanship, again? I thought DoD was getting more into
marksmanship. Does this also mean that CMP is going away, perhaps?
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Denver, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.160.133.50)
"A country too long at peace inevitably attacks itself".
(I don't know who authored this, but it seems to fit)
Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
the divided State of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:04:59
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.235)
Re: Civilian sniper schools.
Check out www.stormmountain.com or contact bobbywhit@hotmail.com.
Storm Mountain is about as close as you're gonna find to a military style sniper course and Bobby runs a fine course also.
You might also consider the "Hardrock" matches put on at Ft Benning each month. While not schools they are sniper oriented matches and you will learn a lot by attending them. Contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com for more info.
On the USAR team. Too bad. Its a shame. Having been knee deep in the active USMC team and the ARNG budget process's at their MTU's I don't know if I would look at the Clinton admin as being the root of this. Most of the time its the budget fags at DA/HQMC etc that force this. In the reserve forces its all about recruiting and retention. If you can't tie into this, you're out.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.176)
I read your comments on the current state of the military. And have to say that most people have know Idea how bad it really is.
I got out amost 3 years ago. I started on a fast attach submarine (10 years ago) where if I even thought about a mistake or hesitated with an answer for a qualification, I was knocked on my a#$%%%%**.
After sea duty I was assigned to a submarine tender which was about 65% female because there was no other place for them in the US Navy. Also it made getting a good shore billet almost impossible.
As for the submarine tender duty, most of the women there were single parents who always had an excuse why they had to go home early or why work just could not get done because of sick kids.
Trust me I could go on and on about this subject.
Bottom Line is that the personel on the submarines are highly trained but they are not responsible and no were near the quality of the submariners 10-15 years ago. Because we are not allowed to train them properly. The people repairing these submarines are even worse.
I really hope we are not involved any thing resembling a war in our current state because some LESSONS will be learned the hard way and people will die just because they are not properly prepared and the equipment is not battle ready.
thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion.
Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
Murrieta , CA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 17:38:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.194)
On Pistols, Bravo, anyone that can shoot a pistol can be trained to shoot a rifle minus handicaps. I have carried a pistol for a long time, daily, and just prefer a rifle to save my butt. Seen too many guys say "PLease dont shoot me again"
Got to go
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 18:25:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.200.47)
What Gooch said re: the "Hardrock" matches is accurate. I'm pretty much a newbie, really, at this. This will be my first complete year competing in matches.
The matches are on Sundays(as a rule) at the Ft. Benning English Range. These happen once a month. The other half of the tactical series is held in Ala. on a private farm. Magnificent place complete with 1000yd range. I'm getting up at 3AM tomorrow to drive there and try to get some zero shots in before the relays. The Alabama matches are generally once a month, as well. So it's two matches per month, usually.
Anyway, there are many great people; great equipment; great atmosphere. You can learn a lot ( I have). Not to mention the thrill of the doing. My excitement is my own worst enemy, but that's one of many reasons I go.
Rusty is a great guy, and I'm sure he would provide you with details. Also, the phone # for the Benning Club is 706 689 3371. Ask for Mr. McQuinn or Jim Graham. I'd throw in their email but EDS has clamped shut the corporate mailsystems due to the lastest virus scare. I think it's brpc@mindspring.com or some such.
Hey, you're in Columbus !!! You're right there..
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 22:19:24 (ZULU) (your host
address: 139.76.64.4)
I've only messed with half of the thing so far and its easy to lose yourself in it. Its very well done and to tell you the truth... I wish I had thought of it!!
As soon as I can convince the rest of TRGT to come on board we will be selling it.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:38:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.175)
Kent
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.175)
Now go shoot. A lot. Replace barrel as needed.
STOP THE MADNESS! Stop couch-potato G-2'ing gear picks. Strap it on and go to the woods. If you don't need it, dump it. If you do need it, get it.
Sniper versus tank? You're kidding, right? I doubt a thermal-sighted main-gunner is going to use his co-ax machinegun on one knucklehead and spotter when his TC's body falls through the hatch and lands on his head. He's looking for the next incoming (fill in here: TOW, Javelin, Milan, HOT, LAW, RPG, Sagger, etc.) that's gonna smoke him. History example: Israeli tank commanders suffer the highest head/upper torso wounds of their combat arms. So did the Soviets in Afghanistan, and now the Russians in Chechnya. A buttoned-up tank is blind.
Thanks, Paul.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:11:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Tanks: come on you think a sniper det is going to be a priority, maybe after all the anti-armour systems are dealt with. Besides you really want to take a shot at any old tank? - Sqn comd and up yeah... but hey button em up with arty - them burn 'em with tow. Also re:thermal, you can't tell a sniper det from a fire team so why waste a HEAT rd when .50 or 7.62 coax will do.
Spotters: (I'll rest on this after - I swear) Ideally your spotter
is a qualified sniper as well - and you will be switching on and off -
Esp. if you are in a hide for awhile. Now you see the tgt - wake your buddy
- do you really want him to shoot now? Best he acts as spotter while you
do the shooting - given that, do you really want a gas gun?
M4A1's are good to at least 600m, not ideal, but sufficent. Yes
there are times when a M21/25, SR-25 etc. will do, but I don't think many
of us would want to be limited in that way - One round can get by, but
after three or four even a pre-schooler can narrow your position down
BUT I am quite willing to admit to scenarios that a 7.62 gas gun
is an effective (and possbily welcomed) aid. Tailor you kit to the mission,
not limit the mission due to your kit's insufficiencies (HEY any CDN Brass
watching)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.143.206)
first of all, the feedback on the choice of the "tools of the trade" you all gave was invaluable and admittedly I came out being far better informed in a lot of things. But my own beleif and bottomline regarding equipment still remains the same : Equipment is equipment and the best choise is the "hammer" that one's training, tactical, operational and deployment doctrine allows one to perform at maximum efficiency.
When it comes what "tool" shoots better MOA's, with all things being equal (training and judgement ability), I think from now on I will only accept statements that are based on test results derived from purely mechanical methods.
Want to compare two weapons ? Put the weapons, each one in turn in an anchored, stable, non-flexible vise made out of tool steel and conduct firing tests at staged distance ranges and controlled conditions.
Then take the firearms for a trip in your favourite Indian/mud/hill/mountain/
Perhaps this is "a" or "the" way to distinguish who manufactures a true combat weapon system and who manufactures something that shoots nice little tight MOA's only when the stock is glass beaded, the ammunition is handloaded with surgical precision, the shooter visits a gunsmith whose middle name is "Yoda" every week and the rifle is shot only every 15th day of the month after being trasported to the range in a velvet lined guncase (and the oracle advises the shooter that the planet allignment is right).
All firearms created equal ? You bet they are not. But nearly all
combat rifles, properly maintained, fall within a comparable and, most
importantly, predictable range of operating efficiency under nearly any
operating condition. On the other side, one comes across a civvie firearm
that boasts an AK/HK/Rem 700/K98/
Anybody under the impression that Vassily Zaitsev or Major Walter Könings returned after every mission to a beer cooler and a master armourer to breastfeed their rifles ?
This post is way too long and it is way too late in the day. Just disregard it... nothing but the ramblings of a youngster...
Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 08:49:28 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.223.224)
Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 09:14:30 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.223.224)
Why does everyone make the assumption a sniper must ALWAYS shoot and run away? If you're on the OFFENSIVE, with your own mutually protecting infantry, tanks, and indirect fire, you swing a mighty club as well.
Walter Reed Army Medical Research Center has done great studies on sleep deprivation. A guy may be a walking zombie after 24-48 hours continuous without sleep, and it DOES NOT affect accuracy. With a sniper rifle or 25mm chain gun he will consistently nail any target. Problem now becomes a clouded judgment call (his reactions are hindered about the same as a .01 blood-alcohol content) -- he can smoke the target within a half-minute of angle accuracy. New problem -- he smokes a friendly 50-75% of the time, bigger than Stuttgart during Oktoberfest.
Oh, and tanks seldom travel without infantry.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:32:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Anyone know if a Chandler Tactical Precision Mount will fit on an HS Precision (HTR) action?
HS says "anything that will fit a Rem 700 will fit ours as well..." but IBA says they've had at least one of their customers in TX tell them the Mount did NOT fit....
Thanks.
Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:52:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.90.112.97)
DNH <dh972@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:55:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.56)
But they re-named the stuff, made some cosmetic changes, and it is still on the civilian market, without the "scary name".
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 15:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.79)
Ares: A rest/vise is probably not a realistic field expedient, but
some good points.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 16:36:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.141.1)
"CMP Rule 4-18. Ammunition. A. Rifle. Rifle competitors may use any safe ammunition."
The Navy issues Leg Match 7.62 and 5.56mm ammo to shooters who bring
their score card to center of the line prior to first relay.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Just finished doing my trigger as per Lito's extremely well written step by step instructions. I now have a smooth as glass 30 oz. trigger. Which should help my group size tremendously.
I encourage others to follow his instructions to the letter and you to will be plesantly surprised with the results.
Again, hats off to lito for sharing his expertise.
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:42:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.41.36.75)
IN MY OPINION too many people take their triggers too light. In my mind there is nothing wrong with a good, crisp 3 - 3.5 pound trigger. Here is my thought process...
1. In my personal experience I've had a problem with keeping a good firm grip on the rifle when the trigger gets too light. I tend to want to "baby" the trigger and lighten my grip with a light trigger.
2. I think a sub 3 pound trigger is too light for a tactical shooter when under stress. I had a light trigger (around 2 pounds) on my M24 when I went through the Army course and had a "AD" for my first sighter shot on the KD qual. I was settling in for the first shot and whoa nellie!! M40A1s are set at 3.5 pounds and my C24 is at 3.2 pounds and that's just about right for me. I can lay the finger on the trigger, get settled etc without fear of launching. I'm not talking about leaving my finger on the trigger between shots. Just talking about the placing the finger on the trigger just prior to the shot.
3. A light trigger doesn't have an absolute correlation to smaller group size. Good trigger control does. Now it could be argued that a lighter trigger makes trigger control easier but I think you lose a degree of control when you go below a certain level.
Any other thoughts on this? Lets get buisy!!
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)
out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)
Agree w/ Gooch on the trigger issue. Running down a wounded magpie
(12 Ga.) once a looong time ago and decided I'd finish 'im w/ one well-placed
.44 Spec. from my M29. He stopped, I stopped, and as I was pulling down
on 'im it went off in the dirt. That night the trigger was readjusted to
3 lbs. (single -action). Taught me a lesson.
Then there was the ND w/ my 7 mag... Went down range but I have
been satisfied w/ 3-5 lbs. depending on use in my firearms nowadays. What's
REALLY important is that clean break and lots of PRACTICE.
I too have used a face veil or scarf w/ my M1A. Works good but I
don't use it often. I attached some velcro to it and then velcro it to
my scope. Lays 'em right at my feet offhand and right next to the weapon
from prone. Excellent in tall grass.
May try it @ Mudville one day. I'm sure the bolt-gunner on my right
would be grateful.
Semper-Fi,
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, californicateya, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 05:52:14 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.221.21)
Tactical rifles are meant for abuse, not coddling like some princely bench rest rifle. Now don't go getting the idea I wish somebody beating my noggin baseball bat style with an M-24 clone, buuuuut,
a 6mmPPC "Tactical rifle" w/ BR type trigger weight?????
One thing I understand is the Stress concept in training based on some real life experiences and a lotta IPSC (old style) and creative training some shooting buddies came up with in the late 1970s and early 1980's while training for L-E careers, or just self preservation in bad neighborhoods.
Once that blood gets pumping and adrenaline rushes along at light speed from doing something like a simulated 400 yard Foot pursuit followed by a brief bit of fancy gunplay with a .45 auto, 9mm, or .38 revolver You develop a greater understanding of your own own mortality and physical conditioning! Yep this is "Spindley little" peteR who doesn't get fed/eat enough talking.
For those fit enough to try a 100 yard dash, say from the target bank/butts to the firing line, then unlock your POV trunk, grab said unloaded & cased rifle, run to line, (walk if other shooters are present for safety), then load a round from an ammo box or SSP and fire it at a 2" sized "T" at 100 or 200 yards. Lets try under 5 minutes for start times and decrease it from there.
Light weight "Go buttons" (UNDER 2 1/2 LBS)are better left to either the Master Snipers, or those more interested in static position accuracy shooting.<(UND
Off my soap box, and away to start sawing trim on yet another persons
home in....
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:04:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.183)
I'll probablt catch a lotta' flack for this, but I don't think there is "one right" weight.
You can spring set 5 different gun triggers to the same weight, and
when you shoot them, they will all feel different, due to the width (wide
ones feel lighter than narrow ones), and where the finger settles on the
trigger... lower feels lighter than higher.
Also, hands are different, and experence is different. It isn't
the number of ounces that matters, it's whether you are in control of it
that matters. If you are constantly wondering "when the hell is this sucka
going to let go"... it's too heavy.
If you are often surprised by it going off as you're just starting
up, it's too light... if you feel "it'll go any moment" and it does, you
are in control, and it's right for the gun, the type of shooting, and the
amount of stress/fatigue you have in that type of shooting.
I have field rifles that are 2 oz's (P'Dogs and Crows), and 5 pounds (Spotters matches)... and both are fine for the type of shooting they do.
Whatever it is, you need to be in control, and practice with it.
'lito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.95)
On the Chandler Mount working on a standard Remington 700. I am not sure on this but I think they clip slot the receiver on the Chandler built guns(Like the Marines) and use that slot as another mounting point on the base. If that is the case the mount will only work with a clip slotted receiver. Cost to clip slot is about 150-200.00. More if painted black.LOL
On trigger: About 3lbs is about right. Less than that and you better use only that and pray you dont go bang when you were not ready to go bang.
Rick, have a nice vacation. If you see your daughter tell her to keep her head down.
I have been working with the XM107 from Barrett. Have not shot it at greatdistance yet, but so far I really like it. It is light, for a 50, and breaks down to the biggest piece being about 32" long. Barrett is sending a backpack designed for it. I will strap it on my back and see how the thing feels to pack when it gets here. Anyone have any favorite 50 calammo they would like to see tested in one? The M99 Barrett also came in. It is also fairly light(25lbs) and looks like a very promising less than $3000.00 50cal matchg rifle. All barretts now have Krieger bbls.
Gardner is working on a McBros based Navy 50cal. That one is just waiting on a KxP bbl.
I have been shooting a great deal of the BlackHills ammo lately. It is working out very well. Somebodt finally has come along to push Federal into getting the quality back into their ammo.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:58:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 16:49:26 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.200.36)
Here is the address on the side of my Slope Doper,
D.P. Rolls
RT 1 Box 128R
Burlington, WV 26710
I bought mine from Hugo at T.R.G.T., ( www.trgt.com )
Kush out!
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:43:51 (ZULU) (your host
address: 12.28.201.32)
K. Long
E-mail chewie@srv.net
K. Long <chewie@srv.net>
Idaho, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 23:22:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.7.221.51)
I think anything less than 3.5 carries diminishing returns. If you
have to worry about dropping the hammer before you want it to it is too
light and you are wasting concentration. I tried the 3.5 with very cold,
dang near frost bit hands and could still feel it well.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 01:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.42.52)
Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:30 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:54 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:12:05 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Certificate Seeker. Pound sand!!
Only reason this guy wants this certificate is to generate bogus credentials.
If you are a genuine graduate of the Benning course you contact them and get what you need.
Special Forces my ass!! Dude you're on the wrong website for this shit.
Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)
Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:07:03 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Dude!...you are asking for a load of trouble....
You are comming into the Internet from:
C:\>tracert 216.67.76.205
Tracing route to nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms host1.hunters.org [207.233.164.1]
2 10 ms 20 ms 10 ms s3-3-1.crva001.volocom.net
3 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms s2-0.crva003.volocom.net
4 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms 166.90.148.89
5 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms gigaethernet5-ashington1.Level3.net [
6 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms so-6-0-0.mp1.Washington1.level3.net [
7 140 ms 241 ms 30 ms so-0-0-0.mp1.Weehawken1.level3.net
8 20 ms 30 ms 20 ms so-3-0-0.mp2.Weehawken1.level3.net
9 20 ms 20 ms 30 ms so-1-0-0.mp1.NewYork1.level3.net
10 50 ms 60 ms 130 ms 216.67.13.138
11 60 ms 60 ms 81 ms nyc2-r1-boston.navipath.net
12 60 ms 71 ms 90 ms nas9.boston.navipath.net [216.67.0.9]
13 371 ms 370 ms 351 ms nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]
Most likely from the boston area - since dns naming that is done these days reflects equipment location too..
Navipath.net looks like your ISP....
Registrant:
NaviPath, Inc. (NAVIPATH2-DOM)
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
Domain Name: NAVIPATH.NET
Administrative Contact:
Investigations, Abuse (IA1764-ORG) abuse@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Hostmaster, NaviPath (HN2394-ORG) hostmaster@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- - 978-933-6201
Billing Contact:
Billing, Domain (BD3887-ORG) billing@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201
Record last updated on 07-Apr-2000.
Record expires on 11-Feb-2001.
Record created on 11-Feb-2000.
Database last updated on 20-May-2000 06:08:39 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
DNS.NAVINET.NET 216.67.14.5
DNS2.NAVINET.NET 216.67.31.254
They would probably not appreciate what you're doing.
More info if needed....
Ken :()
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:10:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
You'll be checkd out.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)
THANKS
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:24:06 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.245.243.173)