Sniper Country Duty Roster

May 2000


A field craft question,

I,m finally breaking down to the preassure of the 90's, it's time to buy a GPS. Any thoughts, suggestions on a GPS with boundary mapping and MGRS ( military grid reference system ) location capability? So far it looks like the Magellan GPS 420 will be the way to go, all I need plus nautical nav aids for those times when an amphib insertion is needed. Any suggestions from the gang would be helpful

Semper Fi

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 00:25:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.70)


Flash Hiders - Don't use them because they leave an even larger signature when viewed through a night vision device. Add the muzzle break feature and the signature is huge even during the day with all the crap blown around. I know that I am seeing this from the military point of view, but if you want a flash hider, what is your intention and where are you using this device?

Pete - We use A191 just like the rest of the boys and girls in the military. It has been declared the only "official" round. Maker is unknown to me, I just shoot the stuff, I don't analyze it. It does shoot nicely in our 300 Win Mags though and is sufficently accurate to bring down anyone who would like to incroach into my space on the battlefield. Sent Gooch data on the round along with base comeups and wind formula constants with an average constant for those without calculator and do not pocess WV toes. (Sorry, Gooch couldn't resist).

Drap Bags - Don't use them, don't recommend them. Use a scope cover and Mike's muzzle cover. You do not need more. The use of a drag bag will get you into trouble as you fight the rifle out of the bag within spittin (200 meters) distance of an observer. If you do it under cover, then you are still crawling with it unprotected. Then after the shot you have find the dam thing. If you don't then they will, and then know where to start for the hunt. If you unbag at the FFP then I can guantee (as several students have found out) that you will be spotted. Again this is the military point of view coming out in me. I hate them and will not use them.

GI Joe - Why in the heck do you want Redfield Palma Sights? They are a disaster. They are the only sight I know of that can become a flying formation of "nuts and bolts" (or tiny screws and smaller ball bearings) in the middle of a match. They are not a tactical sight and why Remington put them into the overall M24 package is beyond me. I would of opted for a simpler Iron sight such as the Lyman. Would it give me the un-needed quarter minute of angle adjustments? No but then I don't need nor want them. It would, however, allow me to engage targets to 600 meters without worrying about which piece will break now. Ask a British Palma Team member why they wear a rubber band around their ties sometime. We are in a constant search to replace the ones we have now at our school. Remington has some but I don't know how many and how long they will last. We have scavenged parts from all our broken ones and we bought a bunch 6 years ago which have now been placed on weapons as replacements for the flying formations.

Max Effective Range - Now there is a subject full of pit falls and problems. The max effective range is that range at which the shooter can reasonable engage a target. Now what is reasonable? The military's first criteria is seeing the sucker. Irong sights versus scope will make a big change. A 308 with iron sights against a soldier in a hole that is camouflaged, range MAYBE 200 to 300 meters. Out in the open with the same system, 400 to 500 meters unless he is running for cover. Add a scope and you now have the max effective range to 800 meters according to the miltary(all though I don't agree with that assessment and think it should be shorter say at 700 meters). That should bring out the "but SEALs make first round head shots at 1000" crowd. Now these are considered first round hits at ranges determined by the shooter through whatever means. HOWEVER, add a shot out barrel and the max effective goes for naught. The max effective range is based on the shooters ability to see the target for engagement with the system he is using AND the system he is using. There are more factors but that about does it. There clear as mud!

Guess I'll shut up now and go back to wishing I had a year off to go around and bug everyone in person. Got to get to the left coast so that I can really bug Mike though.

Rick
 
 
 

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 00:29:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.196)


Liar,liar, pants on fire. I finally shot my .308 Police with a Leupold M3(.308M)out to 1,000 yds. and my 175 Sierra MatchKings at 2600 fps were pretty much right on the money.
yards BDC
200 2
300 3
400 4
500 5
600 6-1
700 7-1
800 8-1
900 9-1
1000 10-1
Anybody else having similar results. There was a bit of confusion about the BDC's as to which bullet with what velocity worked. It's pretty simple. Count the moa's on which ever BDC you're using and match it to the closest drop tables in the Sierra manual. By the way, we had our butts kicked by my partner using a 20" TAC-ORD .308 at 1,000 yds. Shooting prone, he put 10 out of 15 rounds into 7". Not bad, considering he had to dial in 14 clicks (70")into the wind.
dan <danr@acnet.net>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 01:59:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.45.115)
A favor guys, if any of you have any information about a company called Tactical Options and Solutions Inc, out of Florida please contact me. It seems they are sellinga copy of my sling without my permission. We all know that is not right and my sling has been around out here for many years. It is my design and anyone selling it better have my permission. This may be a misunderstanding but a few guys at the Sniper Craft Comp said he was selling a copy of my sling and acting as if he designed it. Very Low Dude!

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 02:35:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.62)


Mike' is right on if I interpret him correctly and he should be with his experience. No need to unsling or draw until weapons are seen. It takes about a thousandth of a second to unholster a handgun and it's far less threatening that way. If you look outside and see a team ready to go, you got to be suicidal to draw your weapon against them and if you they are suicidal there is no way to avoid it anyway. Never walk into and face a drawn gun but never draw one first unless shots have already been fired or guns brandished. IF there were guns and intentions to use them there, there were plenty of hostages on the premises and to enter the way they did would have probably provoked hostage taking and even the boy himself could have been used
.
Rick;is still right about drag bags I think! And dead on about Iorn sights. A Palma shooter recently told me that he could shoot groups as tight as my scope at 300 yards where I replied, I'm sure you mean into the sunset on a target made out of camo paper. He said no, he meant a Palma target in good light. Contrary to most belief's those iorn sights aren't neccessarily less likely to fail than a scope. And aren't always as rugged. That includes M-1 and M-16 sights especially. Most good scopes will stand just about anything a iorn sight will. And contrary to what just about everyone thinks you can hit a moving target with a scope better than with iorn sights if you are trained to do it. (that means with practice you're better on running or moving shots with a scope). The flak should fly over that one. I've read several books written on the subject by men who should and claim they do know by having done it....that imply that a Sniper rifle is totally worthless on close moving shots. That might have some validity on a 32 power Unertl fixed power scope of the Vietnam era but modern 3.5X10 Variables are usable damn close. A lot of Vietnam Snipers or even today's Snipers are trained to govt. specs but actually lack the experience to make moving shots with scopes. I don't mean so called movers (more of a learned game) I mean real jumping darting dodging meat. OK let the good times roll! Incoming!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 02:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bill,

Have to respectfully disagree....I am not exactly a fan of SWAT teams in custody cases, but not drawing until there is a gun pointed at you is a good way to get killed.

You claim that a gun can be drawn in 1/1000th of a second..Ever try it from a Security-III holster???? There are three motions in the draw of some of those rigs. (release retention straps, free the retention device, then come up)

Conventional wisdom is that if a person is 20 feet away, and armed with a knife or impact weapon, and you had better be moving, and have a plan. The reason is that a person can cover 20 feet in the time you recognize a threat and react. If the weapon bad guy has is a gun, you have ZERO time. A 1/4 inch of trigger travel can happen a TON faster than a draw, everytime.

In a house, on an entry, if you turn a corner, and an armed man is there, you are FINISHED. Rule number one of close combat,you can't out draw a drawn gun. Most LE folks know that seeing a gun, prior to the bad guy having it in play leaves you an advantage, albeit small. Recognizing a gun, when you are staring down the muzzle means you are DEAD if your gun is in leather....

BTW: I agree with Mike's assessment, knock and announce (LE 101 i suppose). Maxing out the ROE prematurely doesn't give much space to maneuver later. But if you have to kick in the door, I don't think I would be the first through it without a weapon in hand.

dan-o

p.s. That wound up longer than I planned....sorry
dan-o <dan.overbey@compaq.net>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 03:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.15.80.30)


Anyone have experience with an accuracy comparison between a Remington 700 short action mounted in an AICS kit and an actual AI AW or AWP in 308? Is an actual AW or AWP more accurate and worth the extra money?
Also ref to article on LBT tac 3 day pack vrs ALICE. I bought an ALICE over a decade ago new for $39.00 w/o frame. It has served me well since and I never had to tape straps or buckles. I found it very versatile and tough for the price. Buying used surplus smelly gear for a critical mission is never a good idea. I think the ALICE was given a bad rap that was not deserved.
Joe <josparks@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 04:13:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.165.122.92)
Just thought I'd put my $.02 worth in on drag bags. Personally, I have a Blackhawk, and really like it. Course, I do alot of shopping at a particular tactical shop, and get a 10-20% discount on alot of items, and they just happen to carry Blackhawk gear. Like I said, it's great, all my ammo and everything I need is all in one easy to carry case.....for the range. When going to the range I don't need to hunt around for what I need. But that's all it is for me, a range bag. When headed to the field (big game hunting in my case), I leave the bag in the truck. Whether you're a duty slooted sniper, or civilian hunter, I gotta agree with Rick, excessive movement is costly. For a hunter, you'll spook that trophy buck, for a sniper attempting to bring his rifle into possition, the price is alot higher.

RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 04:52:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.234.0.80)


hey folks:

heard a lot of talk on the barrel break in issue, has anyone checked out
http://www.jarheadtop.com/Kriger%20Barrels.htm

sounds about right to me

catch ya later!!
 

JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 05:11:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.171)


Rick
-----
Hi,
I just thought to get the Redfields'iron sight just as back up to my Leupold MARK4 M3,nothing more.
So what's the best in yr opinion ?

Mike Miller
-----------
I'm with you about the U.S.Optics scopes,I have three of them and I'm
so satisfied,they are outstanding.
I also visited their plant in California,Dott. J.Williams (CEO) was so
nice showing to me any product and every work process in their warehouse.
I strongly reccomend them.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 11:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.11.35.226)


On the AICS issue. I have seen this lately and it just came up again so I have to post. For those of you that are waiting for the "soon to be released" 10 round mag, they have been telling people that for over a year and a half. When we were on friendly terms with AI and before the AICS was released for sale, we got to play with the test version. We were told then that the 10 round mag would be out with the production AICS. Then it was in a few months, then again in a few months, and again, and here it is a year and a half later an nobody has seen anything.
As for the Ai full rifles... Just know that the rifles they are selling have American made barrels. The entire rifle is not made overseas and imported. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, but what is a bad thing is that they are telling people and/or leading them to believe that their rifles are completely from England. If you have one, how can you tell? There will be a stamp on the barrel of a crown. It is the import/export stamp. It will be the same one that you see on the action and bolt. If your barrel does not have one up close to the action, then the barrel was made here. A customer of ours recently ordered and AI rifle, he was told that all barrels were now made in Europe and that the US barrel shop was closed (we have major problems last year with their barrels). The guy ordered the rifle, paid $5000 for the rifle, and received a rifle without the stamp. The contour of the barrel is slightly different and the color is definitely different. If you put it next to an older AI rifle you can see the difference in the barrels right away. He took the new rifle out and it shoots very well, so at least on this rifle the US barrel is good. But telling a customer one thing and shipping another isn't right.
 

Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of , Texas, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 12:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.72.161.185)


Quick point on this whole Cuba custody thing...

Someone dropped the ball and let this get big (he or she should be fired).... I suggest we all shut up and let it get small again. We pay taxes (in the US) so that our legal system, and our INS agency will handle these issues with the best interest of the country and the child in mind.

If we want to rethink OUR process in place to deal with these issues, lets take a look at the process as a whole and not "case study" this one situation.

In my mind, this is an awful lot like a senior officer micro-managing a subordinate...it becomes over-whelming and is not responsible to the system as a whole....let the $60,000. / year INS guy do his job and let's keep costs below a million per case...please

Who benefits from this stupidity? (lawyers, news-people and politicians) ...who pays? (Children, Law Enforcement Agents and US!)

OK, I'm done.

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 12:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


I don't agree with the goverment even getting involved in what I feel is a civil matter but since they have and everyone has an opinion on what was done and now the "SWAT" guys are taking all the heat on this. I for one think all of you arm chair quarter backs need to set back and ask yourself what would "YOU" do if you had to go through the door to get the kid from a house full of people who didn't want him taken away and also with a whole neighborhood full of people outside.
Mike had a plausable solution but then again I would think that if he were put in charge of going in with his people and there were an unknown number of people inside (Armed or Unarmed) you willing to bet your life or your peoples lives on them not being armed??? Then there are all the people who were outside just waiting for something to happen so they can get on TV, you all seen how they reacted when they left with the kid, do you think they would just let you come up and knock on the door?? I don't think so either?? Didn't they have weeks to give the kid back if they were going to??
Like I said I don't agree with the goverment getting involved in the first place but I don't feel it was heavy handed from a "Tactical" stand point. The job of a Tact team or a SWAT team is to do just what they did, in and out with as little damage as possible. JOB WELL DONE!! There that should liven up monday morning!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 12:52:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Off topic, but what the heck, I liked it.
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> >
> > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
> > America: The Good Neighbor.
> >
> > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
> > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
> > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> > commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
> > Record:
> > “This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
> > Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
> > appreciated people on all the earth.
> >
> > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
> > Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
> > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> > forgave other billions in debts. None of these
> > countries is today paying even the interest on its
> > remaining debts to the United States.
> >
> > When the France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
> > it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
> > reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
> > of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> >
> > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> > United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
> > American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> > Nobody helped.
> >
> > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> > billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
> > newspapers in those countries are writing about the
> > decadent, warmongering Americans.
> >
> > I’d like to see just one of those countries that
> > is gloating over the erosion of the United States
> > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
> > in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
> > Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
> > If so, why don’t they fly them? Why do all the
> > International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
> >
> > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
> > a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
> > technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
> > technocracy, and you get automobiles.
> >
> > You talk about American technocracy, and you find
> > men on the moon - not once, but several times -
> > and safely home again.
> >
> > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
> > right in the store window for everybody to look at .
> > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
> > They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
> > they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
> > dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
> >
> > When the railways of France, Germany and India
> > were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
> > who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
> > the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
> > old caboose. Both are still broke.
> >
> > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
> > to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
> > me even one time when someone else raced to the
> > Americans in trouble? I don’t think there was outside
> > help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
> >
> > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I’m one
> > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> > kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> > their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
> > to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
> > over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not
> > one of those.”
> >
> > Stand proud, America!

Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 13:00:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.32.221.139)


Dan; you say a lot of truth there, but I believe I said not to draw on a drawn gun if you can help it. Actually you can defeat that but the first move is evasion of his sights. Most people cannot correct for a fast side move fast enough to live through it. Once you have side stepped his sights and ruined the initial sighting you would be in fair shape especially if he isn't using a shot gun, and you have a vest. If and only if you can get your gun out. The holster you speak of is not a holster it's a drag bag! Don't be caught dead with one of those if you can help it, no pun intended.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 13:10:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Guys, we do not use SWAT for all entries and we do not draw our weapons every time we go into a house. Only when we have a reasonable fear that harm may come to us can we point a weapon at a person. That means if we know the persons to be unarmed and the offense is a non violent one you start out low key until circumstances change. Look at it this way the two most dangerous things we do as cops is make car stops and domestic disputes. I have been on many of each and taken weapons off many folks from these cases, but are you ready for cops to come into your house with MP5's because you and your old lady have a fight about burnt toast or because your registration is expired. I do not think so. Well in my eyes those two last cases havea much greater potential for violence than the Miami thing. When you say it is OK in a custody case of this nature you have opened a box you dont want to. Enough Said.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 13:51:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.28)
Has anyone gotten the new Leica Rangefinder yet... if so, how do you like it, and how well does it range on dirt, trees, etc in bright sunlight (not white houses)...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 14:31:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.70)


Bill,

Agreed. We were taught to get low and get the heck out of the way. Make any move, but make a move, when looking at a gun. This applies even if you have a weapon drawn, as presenting a full frontal shot while you line up your sights is not a great idea either. I have some SF friends who were taught really cool tactics in these cases, unfortunately they are hard to teach at most LE training facilities.

I also see Mike's point very clearly. Using SWAT tactics everytime law enforcement is needed is a kind of coercion on the citizens of this country (all of us!!) are not going to be happy with.

Mike, did you have any luck tracking down the rodent copying your sling design?

dan-o
dan-o <dan.overbey@compaq.net>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 15:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.93.13)


lito'
I had the chance to read a couple of comments on other sights on the new Lica and they were not very good. Only one person had anything good to say about it and he was ranging houses in the neighborhood. Most of the guys who tested them in the field did "NOT" like them!! The optics are great but the ranging sucked!! One gentleman did a test against his 800 Nikons and said the Nikons were head and shoulders above the lica in ranging and was really disappointed because he had expected just the opposit. Another problem is that the sighting box goes away after you push the range button so its harder to hold on target esp if its small.Another complaint was the red numbers are hard to read in sunlight. I don't know how reliable the info is but there were several reports from different guys and the stories are about the same. Hope this helps I was looking at them also I had sold my Bushnell 1000s, now I may wish I had them back.

Mike,
Point taken but I think the potential for danger was definitely there and having been on a team I would much rather error on the side of caution for me and my people as I am sure you would.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 15:52:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)


GOOD NEWS for those (like me) who get lost on the way to the shower...

The GPS military "Jitter" is being removed from the Satellite system this weekend, so those little Garmines, and Magellenes, will give you the very same (+/- a few feet) accuracy that the military has been enjoying for decades... about the only thing that C..Cl..Cli Clin... Aw skit, you know who, has done right, in 7+ years.

Pat... would you send me (by e-mail) the web sites you saw that stuff about the Leica on...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 16:19:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.100)


Not only should we honor those who went to any war,... but also those who battled within themselves when returning home,... and those who came home but were never the same again.
(Scoot-Dogg) MERCINARY (Cpl.) <marcussuitor@counsellor.com>
- Monday, May 01, 2000 at 16:32:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.140.166.2)
Pat (Mr. Bullet): To answer your question (from this armchair quarterback): What would I do if I had to go into that house?
QED. Quit. I've quit jobs before for things that were less "morally repugnant" than trashing the 11th circuit court's juristictional authority, not to mention Florida's state soverignty, and a list of many other things. I say quit looking at actions, or causes, or opinions. Look at what is RIGHT by the law, what's constitutional, and what isn't. If you look at the question "was it a legal action", then how they went in, when, etc becomes a moot point ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly know as the, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 17:37:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
GI Joe - Sent you an email to personnal apoligize, but want to publically apoligize for the unintended harshness of my reply. Meant it as a question as whether you were wanting a replacement for military rifle or personal rifle. Guess it was too late in the evening for my brain to function properly as possibley could be noted from the rambling on the other part of the post.

Think I'll go to bed early tonight.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 20:30:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.212)


Joe(Sparks),

Glad to have the input on the LBT 3 day assault pack article, even if you feel I gave "A.L.I.C.E. from Hell" a real back burner broiler blast.

I paid more than you, feel I was ripped off, and was under too close a time window to return the goods, or follow rule #1 of pre-test your equipment.....

Heck it makes me real real warm and fuzzy just knowing SOMEBODY other than Marius reads the IN REVIEW section. Thanks for the input!
 

Chao!
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 20:58:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.201)


Dan Re: Liar Liar.

I don't know who you are refering to with this post but I am glad it is not me. :-)

Going back thru the archives, I found a couple of posts that I made on this BDC Stuff. Here is one dated 03/23/99 04:51:49

"I will stand by my data until someone that knows how to read and count proves me wrong. What I said was that the 175 gr. Sierra at 2600 will track pretty close to this cam. The 175 gr. Sierra at 2675 is not
compatitable. This is not VOO-DOO like barrel vibrations or the Corolius effect. This is simple math."

It looks from your post, your findings pretty much agree with mine.

In another post, I published a link to a table that I made for the 175 @ 2600 fps in 5 yard increments so one could use it for both yards and meters. You can find it in the archives 03/23/99 22:00:43
 
 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 21:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.46)


Ned, the Dutch V40s are a nice piece of equipment--you can carry a bunch in a canteen pouch. Problems--you have a tendency to over-throw your target sometimes. Don't know if they're still in production or not. There are various new grenades being manufactured as variations on the theme, including very dense plastic bodies (which don't have the heft or the range, but definitely have the blast effect). A military break-contact option if your spotter isn't carrying an M4/203 combo. Carry two or three in an old M14 web pouch as peace-of-mind insurance if you can afford the weight.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 21:59:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
I know you guys are busy but..... Could some one e-mail me with general instructions , on how to break down an M1A1(spring field M14). I recently aquired one, and it didnt come with any manual. I hate to show my ignorance, but I'd hate to bend something, that shouldnt be bent. I dont need the complete how to's for rebarrel, head space and bedding one of these babies(I wouldnt gripe about it...he he), just some general ifo please. Keith(sneak)
THANKS!
Sneak from Texas <furflyin@yahoo.com>
tx, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 22:08:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.240.158.185)
Lito, I heard that on the news today. Nice to hear I agree. That takes away one of the concerns to civilians using these things. Now if they could work out some of the other kinks.

I was wondering if I double ziplocked one of the GPS units if it would receive signals underwater? I'm a certified diver and was wondering if these things could be reliable underwater for finding your way back to a specific reef or terrain feature that you had marked. Till recently they weren't accurate enough. Now the only worry would be if they can receive and tolerate a couple atmospheres of pressure.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/library/PressReleases.cgi?date=0&briefing=0

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
cowpatty town, Ca, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 22:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.231)


Howdy Folks,
Went and did a bit of shooting this weekend did alright once I found the paper. That proved to a bit of a chore at first did not give the wind enough credit until I sent several rounds down the range:) live and learn.
Here's my question does anyone out there have the mil-dot holds for Federal Gold Medal match ammo in the 175Grain bullet,coming out of a 24" tube with a 600 yard zero. I tried to figure it myself and think I have it close but I just want to be sure before I go out to the range and find out I figured wrong. Also what is the correct way to figure this out, I spent several hours trying before I did any figureing that seemed remotely correct. Thanks for any help you can send my way.

Rick, do you ever come to Camp Atterbury, In. to train? When I was doing my SORT training there I met several Army Snipers when we were at the range. Just wondering.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, IN, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 22:38:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.66)


Stagger - Was there working with the 5th SFG(A) on a six week sniper course last summer. WE worked there in July, I think, for a week of fun and games. Campbell didn't have the KD range requirements so we went there for the long range KD practice. They stayed in the BOQ (I really felt bad about that) and I stayed in the Hampton Inn. Oh well it is nice to be a retired army jerk doing work for the gov't. :-)

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 23:01:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.176)


OK, I hope my last comment on this Miami thing. Pat/Mr.Bullet I agree if you can justify a threat you go in with more force than you project will be used agaisnt you. Since you have been on a team I am sure you understand the use of force as applied in either the tree or pryamid examples. For those of you that are unaware here is how force can legally be applied by LE agaisnt offendeds. We start at the bottom with verbal commands. If verbal does not work you go to hands on control holds, if hands of control holds dont work we go to either mace or impact weapons, if impact weapons dont work we go to firearms. Now when we go to firearms we also start with pitols and work our way up to rifles.

In the application of force we can if needed jump to a higher level. So we may go straight to a MP5 if we believe you to have a pistol etc. The sticky point here is we have to justify why we jumped to a lethal force level. That means I need intel that suggests the principals will resist with significant force, knives, firearms, bats something that could cause great bodily harm. I have seen no intel that even suggests the pricipals in this case would resists with hands let alone weapons, so I see no need for MP5's agaisnt them. Bottom line is this if that fisherman had resisted by not letting go of the child would the agent have shot him? No way. What would the agent do with the MP5 if he had to use control holds? What I am saing here is you dont need to kill a Butterfly with a tank. This was a normal LE function not a Hostage Rescue. I have done many Search/Arrest Warrants and what I saw there was as a High Risk Entry Technique minus flash bangs and in my mind over kill for a six year old and a family that had not committed any charged crime. Christ this thing has pay them in a law suit written all over it.

On take down of the M1A, go down to the local gunshop and have them show you the first time.

BDC's: If yours works great,, but wait until the temp changes 20 degrees up or down and you will be off. Plus the next batch of 175's will be faster or slower. I am seeing them go anywhere from 2650-2720 depending on lot out of my weapons. Currently I am using the BDC for a 180 grain out of a 30-06 for the BDC in my MK4 M3.

Rick, remember they should stay in the boats.LOL

Litto, I have couple of 50's coming next week. I am going to see if that Springfield scope will hold up to that. If it will work with that it will work with most things. I have not had a chance to test it on my medium sniper rifles yet.

Charles, most of the scopes have been tested just a few more to play with. Lots of good stuff out there
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 23:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.29)


B.Douglas...

Sorry, but they won't work under water. As I recall, they are on 2.4cm wavelength, and that's real short. Many of the civilian GPS units won't even work well under trees. and the military unit has a huge magnetic antenna (huge for 2.4cm), so the vehicles can move about under the tree canopy.

UnDude...
50's... The least you could do, is use your 20mm Lahti ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 23:27:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)


Badger Bases and Rings
Does anyone know a good place to buy Badger Bases and Rings. I tried Premier Recticles and they are out of bases. Are there any other places to purchase. These are for a Rem 700 PSS SA Right hand. Wanting to buy also a Leupold 6.5-20x50mm 30mm tube LR Target with mil-dot Matte.THANKS for any help Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Monday, May 01, 2000 at 23:31:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.19.70)
RE; BRAVO 762, What Is Right, Legal, By The Law. I say to you SIR:
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo.( No malice intended, or judgementalism,) BUT, when the LAW, doesn't KNOW the LAW, we're in a Helafa mess.
Guy's it's high time some of us wake up. When you ( if you did,) (not you BRAVO)entered into the service of our country,what was the oath YOU took?, remember what it said, BRAVO'S POINT and mine.

tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 00:34:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.181)


OK, I am looking for information on anyone who manufactures a 5R Barrel. Krieger?, Rocker?, need to know and if possible some way of making contact with them. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
JKC <unijustice@aol.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 01:03:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.204)
Undude,
Your half inchers should be on the way late next week. Had to go to Aberdeen PG for some looooong shootin'. Got behind in all my chores at work. The M82A1 & the M99 are ready, the XM107 will get built up late this week or early next week. Have a BLAST! Pun very much intended! Talk at you later.Will call on landline friday evening.
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 01:26:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.117.177)
Dave, thanks for the V40 comments. Who's making the new ones from the "space-age, non-metallic, miracle material" (AKA plastic)? Guess I need to break out a few bucks and see what Jane's has on the topic.

Ned
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
Kablooey, MI, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 01:26:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.47)


More political stuff... I'll post it as a link for those interested - this has to do with gun control in Australia...Definitely not topic material - but worth a quick read.

Read this

Ken

Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 01:59:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.21.143.4)


'lito,
about the leica, Pat is right on the money. My friend Frank received his from Premier Reticles last week and it will not range the targets we want to range past 400 yds. And the small aiming square is annoying. Just when you're ready to range a small,far target, it disappears.
dan <danr@acnet.net>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 02:17:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.45.79)
We seem to be drifting toward tactics here with the Florida thing, imagine that, I've noticed that nothing stops a professional 2 time loser criminal any faster than drawing a weapon. But with people who aren't used to facing weapons such as non criminals if you pardon the expression..
nothing makes them want to grab their shotgun any faster than a drawn weapon pointed at them. The best way to spur a Redneck into armed combat is to draw a weapon especially if he has a 6 pack under his belt. Best to take that extra 1000th of a second if you have too.
It takes a lot of malice to draw a weapon and shoot a officer that hasn't drawn a weapon than one that's shuvin it up your nose.
A lot of tactics that seem to make sense in class don't really work so well in practice unfortunately. I used to make some calls with a officer who followed that rule pretty close and he scared me to death but I know there are at least 3 people alive today because of his cool. (at the time I'd a shot em all) Everytime it came up he would laugh and say, hell, I knew you were coverin me!
Yeah right!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 03:21:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Pablito,

I have a Leica LRF that I received from SWFA. As others have written earlier, it does have really nice optics, but it seems as if the rangefinding is a little on the wimpy side. I am not certain what to expect as far as a $399 eyesafe product is supposed to be, but the longest reading that I have ever been able to get has been 557 yards. Granted, that was on a sunny day, but I was trying to get readings off of houses and buildings. I will bring it along to the ASA class next month in New Mexico and perhaps I can check it out side by side with other "low" priced range finders.
Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 04:04:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)


Lito, I figured the GPS system wasn't too keen on the idea of going in an H2O environment given it's track record in thick brushy areas. Personally I'd love to see a GPS system that can stand up to or was designed for water envioronments. I would just plain love to get ahold of a amphibious GPS unit.

The way I look at it what they did today got me one step closer to getting a GPS unit, now if only some of the other little quirks could be worked out of them. I don't know if these things are gonna evolve any more though. If I get one it's still gonna have a backup compass just incase it goes kaput.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 04:52:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.185)


Does anyone recall the URL of the website with the long range shooting "game". When you logged on you took 20 shots at unknown distances with varying weather conditions. You dialed up wind/elevation and took your best shot at each target. The target was just a black bullseye placed in a pasture.
I lost the bookmark or do not remember what it was called.

Thanks,
-Steve
-Steve <slhoenig@mindspring.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 05:23:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.216.226)


http://www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/longrangeshooting.html

On another note, I recently got to shoot with Stewart Wilson at a tactical rifle shoot here in Bakersfield Ca. It was a fun match that consisted of 4 stages where the AR15 ruled the course. I'm gonna be giving him a call soon enough about that 6.5mm08 AR10 I'm interested in having built. I've seen what he does with the AR10 and he has some very nice custom touches he does on these guns. I'm extremely interested in the fact that he uses top notch barrels, Armalite has let a few turds for barrels out of their shop in the past.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 06:29:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.185)


Long range shooting game:

http://www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/rangegame.html

or click here
 

Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 06:34:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.36.35.69)


Steve, if you didn't figure it out that link is for you.

I got so caught up seeing that this guy does custom chamberings for the AR10 and not to mention the fact that I have met this fellow that I almost wet myself. What's more is he's in my state and close by.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 06:35:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.185)


Rick
------

.........never mind.That's OK.

G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 09:15:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.2.122.249)


My take on the commercial laser range finders is that the Swarovski's are the superior ones. I used a RF-1 for a couple of years and it was a consistent performer on all types of surfaces. MOre so than the Leica's. It was around 2 grand but it was worth it (considering the US Govt was paying for it).

http://www.swarovskioptik.com/nf/us/start.htm

On the Cuba thing...Just another example of the lack of respect for our rights by the Clinton regime. It may have been "legal" but was it right? "Right" doesn't come into the picture with Wild Bill.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 10:13:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.166)


Mike,
I agree but it seems the "Grunts" always get the shitty end of the stick. Like Bravo says, "Just quit", but its not always that easy, is it?? I was just sticking up for the "Grunt" who was trying to do his job as best he could with out getting hurt or hurting anyone else, and I don't want to hear "Yea, well so were the Nazis" its not the same and if it gets that way I will be the first to stand up against it.
I don't even know why were fighting over this kid in the first place and could care less. I am sure there are a thousnad kids here in the states that could use the attention and the money that this is getting and costing the tax payers. I would much rather see us take care of some of our own poor and abused kids than spend a penny on him, it was just my opinion and enough said.
lito,
I will send you the address of those sights I prowl around but they were posted a week or so ago so you may have to do some back tracking.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 12:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
I have recently purchased a Rem. 700 .308 Tactical Police and it is solid black. I have a Springfield Armory black scope and a black Harris bipod on it. Most of my shooting is in the desert where i need a brown with green patches camo patern. Any recomemdations or procedures on painting it. All help appreciated.
Jimmy Smith <jll03@tamu.edu>
TX, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 18:13:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.194.72.159)
Jimmy, how 'bout maroon, with "UT sucks" in white? Or, sure, tan and green, why not? An Aggie joke thread would be a nice break from Elian.
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 18:45:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.9.41)
Jim,
Better watch out, there are a lot of Aggies lurking around. I spent 7 long years there.

Has anyone tried the Aguila SSS round? There was an interesting write up on it in this month's Tactical Shooter. I have heard that the bullet won't stabilize in the 1-14 or 1-16 twist found in most .22LR. What about an AR conversion? My AR has a 1/9 twist but I do not have any experience with the 22 conversion units.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God bless TX, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 19:58:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.4.190)


Saluting my older brothers who are veterans, on the 25th anniversary of the Fall or Saigon:
Vinh, downtown Saigon: "We loved the Americans. They came to help us. After they left in April, our city was shelled for three days. We hid in the basement, and didn't dare go outside. The communist army moved into the city, killing children and the elderly as they went through. It was horrible. Days afterward, they outlawed activities like public dancing, and turned society upside down."

Hue, living in almost the closest residence to the airport: "After the Americans left, there were piles of rifles left behind outside my house in the streets. Piles higher than a man, hundreds, thousands of M16 rifles. You could pick one up, pull the trigger, and thk-thk-thk-thk-thk-thk-thk! It was crazy!"
C.Ross <tplife@tns.net>
San Diego, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 20:18:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.182.177.3)


Augila 60 gr. .22lr loads:
 

A friend of mine shot a goodly number of them through his 18 1/2" Ruger 10/22 the other day. He reports good accruracy on the horizontal axis but a lot of dispersion verticaly. To be more specific, it shot a group about 1/2" wide and 1.5" verticaly at 35 yards. Chronograph data revealed considerable variance in velocity from shot to shot, with an extreem spread of almost 100 fps, which may well account for the vertical stringing. Weighing a sample of the cartriges found that they varied pretty badly, with about %60 clustering tightly around one weight the rest falling into two loose groups that ran considerably lighter. The next step will be to test weight segregated ammo and see if that makes a difference ( we suspect it will). Reliablity of feed, extreaction and ejection was flawless, function brisk. Why TS chose to test them in so specialized an arm is beyond me. My buddy was a bit dissapointed but still has hope that they will prove useful.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 20:53:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)


i just got off the gte intranet and was messing around in technology area and found where gte/bbn tech is in a joint venture creating antisniper technology using a parabolic dish it uses reverse echolocation to target the sniper after he shoots the guy reporting
this said it works so well that it can even distinguish differant calibers very accuratly! even at 1000 yards! sell so much for laying
still after from now on you better shoot & skoot!
zeroburn
zeroburn <zeroburn@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 22:59:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.140.77.224)
Jim (Broonsma): The shooter is right. Lots of Ag's lurk here, and some of us used to give Rudder's Ranger's a bad time! Where you think I picked up such an affinity for the M-14? Don't expose your self, no Ag would ever paint "UT SUCKS" on his rifle. Possibly "TU SUCKS". ;-) You wanna hear an Ag joke, I got your Ag joke! Besides, who you think REALLY does the USMC silent drill team in the movies / TV?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as, USA - Tuesday, May 02, 2000 at 23:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.251)
Zeroburn, saw the same show, dadgumdist contraption that I have ever witnessed. The thing tracks the boolet soon as it leaves the muzzle. Tracks speed, trajectory and can give caliber. They are trying to tie it to all sorts of antisniper goodies. Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, do I really still wantabe a wannabee? Makes one wonder!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 00:18:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.187.223)
That doppler radar is something else! Did the show feature the minigun it can interface with to hose the area the shot originated from? Not one of lifes more pleasurable experiences to witness, unless you're the hoser, not the hosee! The radar can give the origination point of the shot before the bullet can travel I think 600-700m. Not to good a trade off, 1 rd vs 5000 incoming.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 00:33:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.118.79)
I've heard of 5th year seniors, but 7 years? Even for Aggieland? Graduating with your class or with your buddies takes on new dimensions!

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 01:51:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


All you college ring knockers can eat me!

Lets hear it for MCRDU at San Diego and it's sister school MCRDU at PI! Didn't get no ring there just an eagle, globe and anchor.

(That should start a cool, totally non-shooting thread huh?)

Gooch dives for cover!!!

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:06:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.171)


Well I found out last week not to shoot a 50NM course w/ a M4. (who knew the 14.5" would be a hinderance) Keep laughing Dave

Is there any sight with the NM rules so I don't look like such an idiot next time I mosey on south?

Saw a neat laser (Teleranger) in a gunshop on the way to the shoot, but it was to pricey for a used unit and no mount attachment for a tripod.
I am still looking for a new spotter/observer scope to replace an aging once issued spacemaster (hey it still works)- anyone know of one that has a built in laser?
Has anyone been able to find a way of etching mildots into a lens so they multiply with the magnification in a variable zoom? (so your mils stay the same)

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:06:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.142.170)


Semper Fi Sgt. Gooch

" Among all the honors, among all the postings, Promotions, Medals that have been awarded me, the one in which I take most pride is to be able to say - " I am a Marine."

Gen. John a. Lejune, USMC
13th commandant

Forget ducking for cover Gooch, call in the fast movers!

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.145)


Kevin, in regards to you post concerning etching a mil dot reticle in a fixed power spotting scope,

I think that the reticle has to be placed in the rear lens of the scope. Give US optics a call, they add a glass etched reticle on to the MK4 scopes along with changing the power, they could probably answer that for ya'

Kush out
k <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:44:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.145)


On that dopler thing. I wonder how well it would track is the first round was aimed at it? Could it still tell the caliber? Just a thought....
SCS <raven1@anv.net>
Sin City, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 04:15:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.168.181.12)
Can anyone tell me who manufactures the Army's M-24 SWS deployment case? If you can supply the companys' contact information (phone and/or address) as well that would be great.

Thanks!!

M.K.

M. Kessler <mkessler@altavista.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 05:24:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.17.58.22)


On th' M24 case. ah reckon th' compenny's name is "Starlight" o' sumpin outta No'th Carolina.

Jeeze guys. Yo' college fellaz kin hammer on etch other an' one of us unwarshed types chimes in an' gits a hard time via varmintal email, ah reckon. Lighten up please! Mah feeble, unejoocayted brain kin't han'le it. Out hyar.
 

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 10:47:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.168)


Well you'all see it's like this...Mista Gooch has been up in them thar hills toooo long and has gotten use to two things...no female company (as banjos play the theme from Deliverence in the background)and dhem ther corn squeezins! Fact rumor has it he's developin a new bore cleaner, rust remover and hooch all in one from them squeezins! Hell he's got to have SUMTON to do out ther!!! :-)

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 11:59:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.87)


I have purchased a 3rd generation springfield armory scope. This scope is tuned to (.308) 168 grain match loads, the loads that I my rifle shoots the best are 165 NBT. Does anyone have any opinion how this will affect my shots at long range ( 450-600 yards ). Any insight and opnions on Springfield scopes would be welcomed.
Patrick Berriman <patrick@unitedvalve.com>
houston, texas, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 13:56:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.7.184)
Doppler Radar Sniper Killers - We worked with them a couple of years ago and they work when the little midget is inside the box making the wheels go round. There are too many bugs right now in the system and there are several systems out there witht he French system probably working the best right now. It is similar to another little item that tells the shooter what to hold for range and elevation by reading the laser and laser scatter off of the air particles for wind calls. It only works when there are wind sensors every 50 meters down range. The dam thing gave us a quarter mil hold WITH the wind on a test run at Bragg. Our Call was 1 and a quarter mils. Any guess on which round hit?

Gooch you leave yourself open! As an army man I must ask, "Why can't you call a Marine a Jarhead?" Because a jar denotes a useful item that you can use by putting something inside. Uh Oh, me thinks that should get some dander up. :-)

Running for cover at this time. And I gave Gooch my dam coordinates.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 14:26:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.187)


All: Looking for a commercial source for the targets used by the Marine Corps for KD qualification with the M-16A2 and 9mm. Any ideas Gooch?
Jon Custis <custisja@navair.navy.mil>
Orlando, FL, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 15:08:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.44.253.14)
There sure are a bunch of Aggies running around here. Add another one to the list (if ya'll can count that high). Four and 1/2 years in God's Country before coming up here to freeze my cajones off.

Microphone systems for detecting gunshots are fairly simple. I saw a year or two ago where some neighborhoods in California (big surprise) were getting wired with a simple microphone net on a (I think) 1/4 mile or 1/2 mile grid. By simply timing when the noise reaches succesive microphones and some simple trig (cosine! cosine!), the position of the shooter is located to within ten or twenty yards.

Also, the noise signature of each caliber is slightly different, so some computerized matching may be possible. This would only work with handguns and widely differing rifles - you can hear the difference between a 45 and 9mm and a 7.62 and 5.56mm, but not the difference between an '06 and 308.

What do you call an Aggie five years after graduation? Boss!

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 16:02:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)


Radar Etc.
Just like counter battery radars these systems are active - so when you detect them just drop a couple of 81mm 's and the problem goes away (or your S/O takes it out while you do the TGT). The CF Coyote (4 million$ fancy LAV) has the same deal for radar and a neat laser detector so if some shmuck lazes it, the main gun spins and locks on the laser - but all it is, is a BIG TGT

Really thought don't you think these tools are getting silly! -lasers,gps etc. are just an excuse not to do the work yourself they make YOU LAZY! and our good friend Murphy likes that!!! Call me a luddite but I still swear by a map and compass, and use my mil-dots to range. IF you have the rest use them as a back up ONE YOU'VE DONE IT MANUALLY!!!!! Humans make errors sure as SH*T but Do You Really Want To TRUST YOUR LIFE TO A MACHINE!!! KISS - KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - True North formerly Strong and Free - but that was offensive to some - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 16:41:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.134.3)


Suprised to see many Ags lurking on this website. Add another to list. You'll need another hand to count us with now!

Shooter:
AR conversion with the Aguila SSS round sounds like a good idea. But if you are looking for true subsonic ammo might try their new Colibri line. Supposed to be 20 grains and a muzzle velocity of only 375 fps.
Most decent pellet rifles fire faster than that.
Just a thought.

Jon <bigbadjon@tamu.edu>
Aggieland, God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 20:14:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.194.52.223)


Shooter, Re AR's and Aguila .22 rimfires:

In three AR 15 clones (1:9 twists) in my clan, each with a conversion kit, all FUNCTION with just about any 22LR (36-40 grain) ammunition, but accuracy is pretty unimpressive. Good enough for beer cans (empty) but not what we get from just about any other rimfire rifle. The bores on the CF are a few thousandths oversize--I forget the actuals. The 60 grainers might upset to fill the bore better or maybe the short slugs are overspinning. Would be interesting to test both side by side. If I see the Augies (Not AGGIES!!!)available, I will shoot a few for comparison. Are these readily available now?
Paul <paul_f_mickey@ameren.com>
Spfld, IL, USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 21:07:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.51.215.235)


USMC targets are made by the National Target Company. I ain't got no address. Anyone else?

Gooch
Class of '77
MCRDSD
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 22:14:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.139)


April's Precision Shooting has an article of interest. Remington Sendero @ 1000 yds. www.precisionshooting.com click on April. Lots of pretty pictures for the unwashed. Well, not lots, but some.

Jimmy @ TAMU. Did you get any straight answers on stock painting?
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or., USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 00:02:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.10.85)


Waco, Ruby Ridge, Miami, ...

Jarhead...!? I'm part of the 'Parent' company, my BROTHER's a JarHead...

How can you tell if an Aggie's been using your pc...? "White-out" all over the screen...

Nope, nothing new, just SOS.

Larry
Larry (USN) Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 01:39:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.136.124)


So I'm perusing the Emporium and I see the Starline cases on sale. I immediately set about telling(beg-beg,plead,whimper) my better-half that I will be ordering one of these fabled cases. So she says ok! It's gonna be for Father's Day!!! Then she proceeds to tell me what she wants for Mother's Day...

Sound familiar? HAH!
Spud,
Semper-Fi,
Out

PS Will see you Mudville soggys on Sun!
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 02:53:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.85)


Here's my dilemma:

New daughter is going through clothes so fast that I'm tapping into my "guns and gear budget" (BIG OLE GULP). So, before It evaporates completely, I have been needing to do some tweaks to my Rem. There is a smith up here by the name of Arnold Arms (based in Arlington, WA). Has anyone, particularly those from the NW, dealt with or have tested their products? We have a couple of smiths in the Seattle Metro I could go to for the work but their turn-around time is 4-6 months (past the one month of dry season around here). Arnold promises a faster turn-around with the Rem.

Any advice greatly appreciated. As for the new one, ah well, at least I am getting some range time again!

Thanks all!

Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 02:55:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.39.130.53)


my shooting club is holding a 50 bmg fun shoot May 19-20-21 near DIA in Colorado. We have a dozen cars, 100 butane tanks and assorted other stuff to blow up. There will be a full auto 50, a 20MM and assorted mortars. Vets welcome, camping, food etc aailable. 303-377-0034
wildlife hunters assoc of co (WHAC)
mark mason <whacemason@usa.net>
aurora, co, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 03:01:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.13.69)
A quick point of interest on bullet tracking, microphone DF'ing etc.

The British Army use a marksmanship training system operating along similar lines (microphones though, not radar). The microphones are situated in a baseline along the butts (fixed targets only, no ETR's or movers), and detect fall of shot - even if you miss the target itself. There is also a remote monitor you can take out onto the firing point with a screen to show you your POI. I use the system fairly regularly out to 600, and it seems to work well.

Dom
Dom <LethbridgeDP@cf.ac.uk>
Cardiff, UK - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 07:39:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.251.0.8)


Just picked up a 9" twist .223 PSS, since I heard that Big Green will no longer ship except for Police Sales. Odd. To my way of thinking, the Police are civilians, too. Oh, well. I was planning on a .308 to approximate that newfangled M-24 I wanted to try out, but I couldn't find a .308 (locally). When I was on the MTU back in the "Dim Ages," we taught M-21's, but the NCOIC said they weren't up to the old bolt- guns he sniped with as a kid in Viet Nam. I do know that we were always tearing the stuff we had down for rebuilds. So, I figured I'd get a bolt-gun and see what all the shouting was about. Now I'm having second thoughts about this .223 business: I hoped I'd be able to get good results with the 68 gr. BTHP loads, but I don't see anyone talking about them in this forum. Any experiences / observations?
SFC(R) Earl <kettlebelly@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, Mo., USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 12:19:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.32.107.226)
Off topic alert:

All - don't open any email messages with the text "I LOVE YOU" in the heading. There is a world-wide email virus currently in circulation.... even if the mail is from someone that you know. That person's computer might be infected - which means that if they use address books- the virus will replicate itself using their address book - which will make the message look familiar to you...

The trick is to simply DO NOT OPEN THE ATTACHMENT. That is where the malicious code is present. Just simply delete the message.

Sorry for the off-topic post - but - man some F***G A***LE is at it again....

ken :)

Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 14:42:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)


re: "Has anyone, particularly those from the NW, dealt with or have tested their products? We have a couple
of smiths in the Seattle Metro I could go to for the work but their turn-around time is 4-6 months (past the one month of dry season
around here). Arnold promises a faster turn-around with the Rem."

I know of a couple of smiths in the Seattle area who perform "follow-on" work on rifles modified by Arnold Arms. I personally have no experience with Arnold but "buyer beware." You might check Jim Cloward (206) 632-2072. I've always experienced quick turnaround and of course excellent work.
Curious George <cg@ibm.net>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 17:53:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.226.13)


Uhoh guys, from the headlines at TheWashingtonPost.com,

"Navy SEAL Charged With Munitions Theft"

Forgive me for not knowing how to do an in text url link, do a cut and paste or click on my name to go to the link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59455-2000May3.html
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
RoadApple, Ca, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 18:31:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.216.69)


Have been unable to locate info on or place to purchase a "D.D. Ross" trigger guard assembly for Remington 700 SA.
Also would like to hear from someone using MWG base & rings in reference to repeatability of zero. I intend to use both a SS10X42 Tasco for long range shooting and my 1.75X6 B&L for deer hunting.
Thanks
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 18:43:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.216.40.3)
All:

For anyone who may be interested, I was able to track down the info on the National Target Company. The address is: 4690 Wyaconda Road, Rockville, MN 20847-2152 1-800-827-7060 or 301-770-7060
Jon A. Custis <custisja@navair.navy.mil>
Orlando, FL, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 18:52:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.44.253.14)


Rick on flash hiders;
I know I am late getting to this one but on 05/01 you made the statement that a flash hider was worse than no flash hider. I don't claim to be an expert but I think you are wrong with that statement. You say it is easier to see the flash signature with the flash hider with night vision and I have a hard time with that. Without the flash hider it would be much easier to see with or without night vision as the flash would be large. You say that the flash hider blows stuff around during the day more so than a std. barrel. Wrong a proper flash hider will reduce the dust signature to almost nothing and blow stuff around less as there is a lot less pressure and it spread over a longer time period than a std. barrel.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 20:48:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.5.111)


Bill Moore - DD Ross trigger guard:

Try Iron Brigade Armory - http://www.ironbrigadearmory.com

Ken

Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 21:02:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)


Jerry - The greater day signature was meant as a reference for the muzzel breaks which creat one hell of a blast pattern. The day signature is signaficant, and greater than the unregulated muzzel blast. Now, for the flash suppresser/hider. We tested several in the 80s in preperation of standards for the M24. We found that the visible light at the shooter was greater whithout the flash hider but rapidly disappeared to almost non existant at 100 meters and beyond. With the NVDs the flash was so rapid that is you were not looking for it you would miss it. However, with the flash hider converting the visible flash to a huge donut of heat the NVD saw it very plainly and was easy to locate the weapon. These tests were done at ranges of 100 to 1000 meters at every 100 meters. At 100, yes it was a trade off, although that huge donut of light is something to see. Beyond that it was not even close and by 600, the unregulated muzzel flash use was a pin prick of light while the flashhider appeared to be a 3-4 foot ball of flame. Remember, that disappaiting energy comes at a cost. Even the flashider in foliage will disrupt the foliage over a greater area due to the fanning out of the gasses. This will creat a significant signature when viewed from a distance. Granted this requires the observer to be looking directly at the weapon when it fires. But then again it requires the viewer to be looking directly at the weapon for the flash hider to be effective. We shoot at night every course and the unregulated muzzel flash is not a problem for the shooter or observer, thus that end of the equation is also not a problem. I will stand by my statements as they are from test data performed on the range. That is why the flash hider was not part of the test critiria for the M24. I was directly involved in that project from start on the Special Operations side of the house. I know that it does not make sense that a flash hider does more damage than good, but it seems that many things in shooting is all FM!

Dam Gooch no come back on the jarhead thingy or did you just consider the source?

Anyone want an Aggie anti-tank bayonet? Only used once.

Someone has to bite!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 22:03:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.178)


I have got to learn how to spell!
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Oppps, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 22:04:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.178)
Need some help in locating GI cleaning patches 2 1/2" square fuzzy ones.Tired of cuttin up my underwear or paying $5.oo per hundred.

Thanks Steve
Steve <Dzuppi@aol.com>
Wayne, NJ, USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 22:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.191)


.17 Remington,

Thinking of having one made up to run the Berger Moly 37gr VLD bullets,thru a 1-6 twist barrel,anyone one have experience with this, good or bad?
 

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 23:25:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.207)


BREAK IN HELP NEEDED
Just received my new REM 700 PSS in 308. Need help on what is the best break-in proceedure to use. Will be shooting FED 308 match ammo 168gr. Also need which materials I should use to do this right. THANKS for any help Doug

Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net >
USA - Thursday, May 04, 2000 at 23:39:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.19.64)


Steve - cleaning patches:

In the book titled "Dead On" they use paper towels torn to the size required - instead of cloth patches.
Haven't tried this myself - but if you think about it - it might be a decent idea. Some paper towel types are reasonably strong.

Ken :)

Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 01:20:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.21.143.4)


Has anyone tried the new Timney trigger for the Savage rifles?
Does anybody have an opinion about them?
Thanks Ron
Ron <M308SAV@aol.com>
Tulsa, OK, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 01:42:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.17)
THe National Target Co is in Maryland (MD) not Minnesota (MN).

I concur with Sir Boucher on the flash hiders. Without anything on the muzzle, the blast tends to go straight forward, spreading out as you go. The flash suppressor launches the blast at various directions at about 90 deg from the bore (depending on the design). The problem with this is that as a sniper I can deal with the straight ahead blast better than the lateral/longitudinal (can I use those words here?) blasts that a muzzle break/flash suppressor launches. A perfect example is the blast pattern set off by most .50's. Stick the barrel into a bush so that the muzzle is flush with the opposite side of the bush. Fire a round with the break on. You have just defoliated the bush. Take the brake off and do the same thing in another bush. After you have the buttstock surgically removed from your shoulder you will notice that the bush is largley undesturbed except for veg knocked loose from the concussion.

I have observed live fire from the receiving end from 7.62 at around 300 yards from a 26" non-flash suppresed barrel and there is little or no flash visible. Same thing from the side. There is a small blue flame from most sane 7.62 loads.

Most snipers that I know don't want the flash supressor for the blast problem moreso than the flash issue.

Barrel break in!! We just beat this horse to death a coupe of weeks ago. Based on personal exp and opinions of some others who know more than I do, I'm of the belief that none is required for most factory/custom rifles with anything other than a made in Tijuana barrel.

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 01:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.167)


Reasons FOR a flash hider:
1. If I don't have it, there's nothing to mount the front sight on, and the threads and splines on the barrel would get dinged.
2. And mounting a bayonet (anti tank or other) ;-) would be out.
3. I would have nothing to put the Sinclair guide up to when I shove the cleaning rod down the muzzle except the clean crown - OH NO!
4. Sometimes I LIKE the overwhelming urge to knock over a local State liquor store with a heavy competition rifle (which is derived from the bayo lug AND flash hider, as explained to me by the liberal press).
5. It keeps me from living any place that starts with "the peoples republic of".
Just the thoughts of a HAPPY, and legal, preban M1A owner!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 03:21:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.216)
Kent & Rick - What about Jerry's Nighthawk Suppressor/Hider ?
Agreed that most are more of a pain than worth, but his looks very promising. If mine ever gets done the EDM work I intend to try it at night with some observers using NV.

Dave etc. Someone ask Recon Econ when the liberation is? where getting frustrated up here! LOL :)
 

You can get further with a kind word and a gun, than just a kind word - Al Capone
 
 
 
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 04:49:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.142.109)


To Dan & Gooch, Re: Barrel Break in
Sorry to inform you that that horse is alive and well. There is a good article in one of the precision shooting magazines, I think it was April issue. you can read it by going to

www.precisionshooting.com

It has the respected opinions of such men as

Harold Vaughn
Jim Borden
Dan Lilja
Kevin Thomas

The comments of Kevin Thomas are especially worth reading as he is a genuine DATP. (just like me!)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 09:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.194)


Master Rick & Mista Gooch,

Nice logical commentary on the flash hider/muzzle brake issue from the downrange perspective, no less! I take it that the cartridges used were military type rounds with the flash suppressant additives to the powder?

How does the OEM civvie stuff like Federal, Remington, W-W, compare to it?

Jerry Rice{the gunsmith one},
Maybe you and Mikey (Un-Dude) could get some night pix of the Nighthawk and OEM flashes with say Federal .308 and .300WM and it could be posted on S/C?
 

My 100 cents on the radar/microphone thang- If you have been doing your job, pre-op setting up and observing, wouldn't you either pop'em (or that fancy equipment) during their set up, or simply vanish into the undergrowth like Sarge will be doing when Mrs. Sarge finds out about his new scope............. ;-)

peteR ducks back into the Spiderhole awaiting Incoming
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 10:59:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.193)


Mista Gooch,
I rank you right up there with lito' and Rick as the "Most learned ones" but I have to diasgree with your comment on barrel brake in. I, like you, used to just shoot em an not worry about all the fancy break in stuff that I figured were for prissy benchrest shooters (No offence ment) but after doing it to a couple of factory rifles I could not believe how much difference it did make. I can't say it made them more accurate but it sure made them a hell of a lot easier to clean up!!! As I have gotten older and wiser(I hope) I now take a lot better care in my cleaning process and when you have one that cleans up in half the time it really does make it nice. One could argue that maybe that factory barrel was just smoother but after doing at least five of them in the last 3 to 4 years and have them all turn out the same, I AM A BELIEVER!! Just my thoughts on it anyway, by the way did you notice I never made any Marine jokes?? Aren't you proud of my restraint!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 12:27:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
TO: Mark Mason

I'm signed up for the 50 bmg fun shoot May near DIA and am really looking forward to it. See you there with my M82A1!
AM

Animal Mother <stude59@uswest.net>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 12:33:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 162.18.75.75)


bullet seating depth:

i found a pretty good load for my .308. i was using some generic 168gr BTHPs i found in a bag at a gun show. i set them in freshly trimmed cases (2.01")on top of 44gr of Varget(not an overly HOT load) to an OAL of 2.8". i did get two sub-1/2 min groups, i expect the rest of my groups to do this with practice.
-yes, i still flinch, when i don't control it
anyway, i ran out of bullets and bought the only box of 30cal 168 gr BTHPs my dealer had, S(s?)peer gold mathces. they're .032" shorter than the other bag i had. the "generic" bulletes measure 1.232"- sound like anything anyone's ever shot?
so, to load closest to what i was shooting monday do i seat for a shorter OAL or do i maintain OAL and increase case capacity? my OAL is arbitrarily based on a few different Remington factory rounds. my seating die isn't mic.ed so the only way i have to figure seating depth is to subtract my OAL from the combined length of the bullet and case.
how does one find the best OAL for their chamber?

strung out and dis-jointedly yours

kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 14:50:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.72)


kg,

You can probably run them out to an overall length of 2.825", ( with a factory Remington chamber. The powder charge that you are using can also be very effective with the Sierra 155gr Palma and 175gr Match Kings.

Praise be to Varget!!!
 

Chao
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 15:46:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.191)


I have a question for those for more knowlegde than myself. I just bought a RUM 300. I am goingto use the gun on mulies & elk. I also hunt whitetails here at home & was curious if i could devolop a load for the 300 RUM that would make it act for like a hopped up 30-06 to use for whitetails. I am just learning to reload & any help i would be grateful for. thanks guys!
Max <maxrowe@vaix.net>
Buena Vista, VA, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 15:52:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.176.41.2)
Max,
 

The .300RUM is a LARGE cartridge and needs LOTSA powder to run smoothly. If you drop powder charges down, the powder column inside the cartridge is going to get "funkified" and you probably will end up with erratic velocities.

You will see QUITE a bit more on this particular subject later, TRUST ME..............
 

Cha(Ouch)
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big Cannon coming City, By-Gawd, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 16:34:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.184)


I currently shoot a Remington 700 PSS .308 and was wondering about getting a magnum. Does anyone have thougts on any of these round and what rifle did you use?
.300 Win Mag
.300 Ultra Mag
.338 Ultra Mag
.338 Lapua
Thanks for any info.
m. smiley <mysmiley@sirius.com>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 18:38:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.134.241.55)
Looking for any input on Armalite AR 10 T carbine in .308. Will this 16" barrel give me 1.5 out of the box at 100 meters like they claim. Thanks for the help.
Ray <ray480@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 19:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.111.24.217)
Just for my own education. Does the militay have (as part of it's curriculum for snipers)visual range estimation. I was wondering if it was still taught as a back up the current technology available. If so what sort of method is used (beyond the practice, practice and more practice).
Muzzle <rpowers@wickenburg.k12.az.us>
Wickenburg, az, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 21:17:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.218.16.185)
Low Signature Devices (Flash hiders),

The best LSD is of course a suppressor,if they are hard to get(restricted) the suppressor with ports in the outer casing like the one Jerry Rice makes,would be the logical way to go.Or use a layer of bush between you and the target,NZ snipers were told to use 2 layers,however as they had to shoot at night during course,and did not want to get caught by instructors,they decided to bump it up to 3 layers that they would cut a shooting hole in to insure no firing signature.

Just as an aside,a while ago shot a .308 w/suppressor just after last light,from 6 feet to the side all I could see was a small 1 inche blue flame,pulled the can of and shot again very large fire ball,however this was at close range and from a short 19 inche barrel,not very scientific.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 22:33:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.199)


Well, Got the poop on the 2000 Sniper Rendezvous today. Lord willing and the creek don't rise (and daughter/college doesn't such the finance well dry) i may actually make it this year.

Ghillie monster suit is ordered from the guy in FayetteNam. Will do a review of it when it comes next week. If it is good as the one he had at the weapons of mass destruction show last year, it will be nice.

Sign up now dudes, the sheepies are a waiting.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 23:28:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.191.207)


Anyone know how, or if it is even feasible, to lighten the trigger pull on a HK91?

Thanks,
Steve
Steve Starksspear <starksspear@plateautel.net>
NM, USA - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 23:47:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.164.191)


Muzzle,

In regard to visual range estimation, you have the mil-dot ranging system that has been that is a good optics based method. For Arty & Mortars, you can grab a compass, a map and a calculator and use parallax. Or you can eyeball it, but that takes practice, practice, practice!

Semper Fi

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 00:41:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.73)


I should stay out of this but just for opinion's sake....
IF you have a new barrel it should be cleaned fairly often but the better the barrel the less important that is. Just to keep anything from shaving off and getting abrasive in the barrel it's a good idea to clean every 5 or ten shots. I guess you can call that breaking it in if that suits the purpose of discussion but good barrels are pretty well lapped and smoothed to begin with. IF you have a barrel you are breaking in and it improves with shooting it really doesn't have to mean that "breaking it in" correctly is what's making it happen. Just about any rifle shoots better after about 200 rounds.
You tend to think your "breaking in procedure" is doing it but usually
it's just that bullet going mach 3 out of that barrel that's cleaning it up in my humble opinion. It makes for a lot of questions on SC but
in the long run. Just clean it up pretty good as you go and don't let big stuff clog up the works. One thing for sure it'll either get better or worse. After you do a couple hundred or more you wonder if it makes a damn! Or at least that's what strikes me. These so called precision shooters do a lot of things that aren't prudent for tactical situations or the weapons that are used to fight with. It's an art and a science but it's about as important as the wax on a race car to the speed down the track! It matters but not much!
Flash Hiders;
You know if flash is a problem you can do a hell of a lot with choice of powder and barrel length. In some cases more than you can with hiders, suppressors and the like. But don't get me wrong they have their place too and they work! But do pay attention to the powder charge and type of powder as a function of flash.
I've not used NV in testing for flash but I will. Since it's long wave stuff it sure might be different than visable light. Interesting point you raise.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 01:57:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Flash hiders/Muzzle breaks - I have never used or been on the down range end of Jerry Rice's Flash hider. All I can say is that with every flash hider we tried that used the side dispersion of gases gave a tremendous heat donut that showed up on the NVDs. Was it VISIBLE light, no. It was a heat signature that created the huge donut. Being in the military that is as bad as visible light.

Pete - Have not done a check with the civie stuff. The problem is really a heat signature problem that causes the flare with the military stuff. I would imagine that the civie stuff would be worse, but that is a wild a**ed guess and NOT an educated statement.

Kevin - I would love to have Mike get Jerry's stuff and shoot it from the down range perspective, both for visual and heat signature.

A couple of other clarifications, possibly. The M14/M1A has a muzzle break not a flash hider. The cage, as with the M16/AR15, was closed at the bottom and open aross the top. This was to lessen muzzle climb during firing of the weapon. These suckers give off a tremendous blast of heat and will disturb foliage for yards around you. The original flash hiders were conical devices placed on the muzzle to protect the shooter' eyes during extended night engagements. This is as in charging hordes of crazed bushito learned Japanese during the island wars. You could lose your night vision and when the infiltrations began you could not see for awhile. It was not to protect you from enemy detection.

As Chris from NZ states, your best protection against flash signature is getting stand off and using layers of bush between you and the target. Take advantage of the trajectory of the bullet and let the bullet fly unimpeded over the trash you just sighted through. As we tell our students, stand off, stand off, stand off. Or as Chris stated layer, layer, layer!

Muzzle - We teach several techniques of estimating distance by eye and ALL of them require practice, practice, practice. The biggest key though is to write down your first impression of the range. If you go that is 450, no 350, well maybe 600, uhhhhhh 525. You will never learn. The old football field method is probably the WORSE method though. Want an example of why? Look at the telephone poles on the road and see how they get closer together as they get farther away. Now go to a range and look at the 500 yard line from the 600 yard line. That is 100 yards. Now try to superimpose that distance down the range and estimate where you think the 200 yard line should be located. Opps thats the target berm! While the mind sees compression in perspective, it just does a crap job of putting it in practice on the ground. Go look at common objects at different ranges and see how they should appear. Practice, and when you see a man at 500 you will go hey he's at 500 yards!

Gooch!! - If you remove the muzzle break from a 50 you don't need to have it surgically removed from your should but the bruise will run from just below the ear to just above the belt line. Been there, done that, got taht t shirt. Now THAT is stupid!!! Sabot had taken off the break and I wanted to see what would happen if fired with the break off the weapon since it had just went down range. And still no Army comments!

Where are the Aggies?!!! I can't get anyone going this week! Oh well have fun guys.

Rick
 
 
 

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 02:09:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.204)


What do you all use in the field to keep your rifle clean? I got to thinking about elk hunting last winter -- all the snow that kept falling, drops of water in the first 1" of the bore on the muzzle end, drops of water around the bolt from body heat warming up the snow. I figure you military types have experienced harsh conditions, and all the rest have gone hunting a time or two, so what are your thoughts on maintaining weapon integrity in the field? At the end of the day, I can give my rifle a good wipe down and get it dry again, but how about three hours into the hunt when there's no way you're gonna take a break and go back to camp...

I had a few experiences with some of the 'old guys' during the hunt, they would slip and maybe get a little snow packed around the bolt area...what can I bring with me to get a rifle back into the hunt? This happened several times; now these are experienced, proficient hunters but every now and then everybody slips or trips and falls. Short of packing a full cleaning kit in my ruck, what works best?
 

Thanks

Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 03:01:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.36.35.69)


I seem to have "LOST" my T-handled torque wrench (and all of it's associated little doodads) from my kit on my last shoot. Loaned it, left it, forgot it, kinda thing I just can't remember where the H%$@ it is.. Does anyone have a source for a new one on the civilian market. Please e-mail me privately. Thanks in advance!
DJ Bolinski <david@proserv.microserve.com>
PA, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 11:10:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.70.182.58)
Military snipers are trained to estimate range by naked eye (within 15%), bino mil scale (10%) and scope mildot reticle (5%).

Naked eye techniques are listed in the Army FM 23-10 which you can access online here.

www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-10/toc.htm

Out here
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 11:46:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)


Brian' I carry a m-16 cleaning kit (belt clip job) for all my rifles, use a lot of stainless steel to make rifles with. I make a scope cover from truck intertubes so that I can loose it if I need too and a balloon over the muzzle. Put a discarded tooth brush in your pack for getting mud out of the chamber and bolt area and around the scope. Don't neglect to clean at night even on stainless rifles and barrels, most will turn to crap in salt air. Browning is about the best in bad country. Weatherby will rust badly and Remington is only
fair in real harsh weather. Parkerizing is best but has to be wiped down because it's usually worn in a lot of places. IF your scope doesn't fog you might get a shot in the Rockies on about the 5th day.
Use only synthetic stocks and rubber butt plates these days, there's no way to get the rock dent's out of the barrel metal after the hunt. Consider it a trophy to remember the hunt by.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 13:40:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Rick;
I must plead ignorance as to night vision equipment as I have never even looked through any so I will have to take your word for the heat signature but I cannot under stand how it would be worse than a standard barrel!! The flash hider I sell was designed for LE and not for the military and it works well. We did send a 300 Win to the Seals to test and they had it for 6++ months and all of the grunts loved it but the guy with the check book would not cough up the money but I did not get any reports about checking it with NV good or bad. With the 308 all the flash that is visible with the naked eye is two small side flashes and a blue flash inside the hider at the muzzle and if you stand off in front of it at about 25 or so yds you cannot see that. The 300 will give a flash about the size of a golf ball, again hard to see if you were any distance in front of it.
When I get Kevin's rifle finished he has someone brave enough, not me I learned at an early age which end of the gun I belonged on, to let him shoot this and check it with NV.
We will see.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 13:53:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.102.29)


DJ, you're not gonna like this, but those Seekonk wrenches run about $65. Leupold sells 'em. Also try Grainger, MSC, or any other big tool seller. Don't forget the pawn shops.
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 14:46:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.8.133)
Rick, if it weren't you, (or Patrons Dave or 'Lito), I would disagree. As it is you, please educate me. I've shot the "politically correct" chi-com M-14 type (someone trying to convince me that it's JUST AS GOOD as any Springfield M1A HA!), the one without the flash hider / muzzle break, and it "kicked" just as much as my pre-ban M1A. I couldn't tell any difference between muzzle rise either. Haven't shot the new PC Springfield yet, but have noticed that they're specifically calling that thing (the new and improved thing) on the end of the barrel a muzzle break, not a flash hider. And I've seen those dealies that slip over the factory hider / break that are called "stabilizers", that pull on the bayo lug for tension. But I've always heard the standard M-14 part at the muzzle referred to as a flash suppressor. If it's a muzzle break, it's not a good one at all. If it's a flash suppressor, well, I'll have to take a great M1A shooter's word for how well it works (never been down range with someone shooting a M1A), but he claims that it's hardly visible when fired with the naked eye, even from moderately short ranges.

See, you got one of them thar Aggies stirred up! And I don't need no stinkin' anti-tank bayonet. You know the difference between the boyscouts and the Army? Boyscouts don't have artillery! ;-) You asked for it!

And to let you guys know that I'm not some oddball, there's a movement here where the American flags are being flown upside down to let "the media" know that we're in protest of clit-ton's guvmint, and the world media (the Ameriken media wouldn't touch it!) know we don't agree with how this country is going! One doesn't spit on the constitution and hang around too long here......
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 16:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.145)


Well Bravo you had it almost right:
What's the difference between the Boy Scouts and the Army??
The Boy Scouts have adult leadership!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 17:05:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.55)


Sorry Guys been away for a few days or I would have got in on the Muzzle Brake thing.

Rick, I have tested Jerrys device and it kills most of the night time signature. I estimate about 90% is gone. I did not use NVD's, but no flash was visible past 30 feet on the range. Yes I had my stupid A.. in front of the muzzle. I dont think you had a chance to see the device at the Hathcock Match, but it is way different than anything else out there. The device takes the gasses and runs them in circles in a can like attachment. By the time it exits you just have the blast and noise left, nill on the flash. This is all with 308 Win. I have not tested the 300 Win version yet, but I think when I burn up my new 300 BBL I will change to the NightHawk Device on the next one.

The only disadvantage to the Nighthawk is that it vents to the sides. That is what you caught me on with my second shot in the Match. The damm Rose bush I was in wiggled from the side blast. If I had not been Brain Dead at the time I would have cut some side branches and then they would not have moved. This was the first time I had used the device in a stalking comp, so I learned from that one. I learned that you have the eyes of an Eagle. Jerry's device looks like a small can, adds less than 1/2inch to the OAL, drops the recoil substantially and kills most of the flash. It just does not lower the sound signature. I see no reason not to use it.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 18:20:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.184)


I also have Jerry's device on a .308 and I will be putting it on a .300 that I have one order with him. The device is very well machined and it sure seems to do what it claims. I am looking forward to feeling how much it reduces the felt recoil on the .300 as well. I will have it with me when I go to New Mexico in a month. Maybe someone can bring some NV equipment if they are going?
 

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 18:57:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)


I'am looking for reviews or tests on the Ruger M77VLE in 308. Any help on this rifle would be greatly appreciated. I can't seem to find anything, on the web, magazines, etc. Help.....glenn. email me at grb1154@aol.com thanks
Glenn <grb1154@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:11:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.57)
Hi Ya'll. On the flash supressor/NVD issue, I've got no experience but something to keep in mind is that NVD's will likely register a different light frequency than is normally visible to the eyes. What that freq is and how muzzle blast spectrum can change is not simple stuff. Basically temperature dependent, which probably ties in to powder, muzzle pressure, etc., etc. Build it, try it, fix it. Interesting topic though.
brandx <brandx375@aol.com>
sunny seattle, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:12:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.27)
Does anyone have any experience with Sako or Tikka rifles?

I am considering either a Sako 75 heavy barrel varmint or a Tikka sporter, both in .308 or .30-06 caliber for long range (out to 1000y) tactical/target shooting. The TRG-21 is beyond my budget!

Any coments as to accuracy and reliability would be greatly welcomed.

Devin <dethredge@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:15:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.20.87.129)


Hey Guys,
Gonna try my hand at rifle silhouette next weekend. I know my 700VS with Badgers and SS10X42M is wayyyy over weight but where I shoot they are pretty easy going unless someone complains.
Just gonna use Federal GM 168's since I know what there doing out there.
My question is since you gotta do this on your hind legs with no sling, anyone got any advice on stance or fore end hold, or for that matter any advice will be appreciated.
I don't want to look too bad since sniper rifles are sorta looked down on to start with, you know 10 power and mil dots.

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:33:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.157.109.79)


Bravo - You are right and I am wrong. The devices on the muzzle of the M14 and M16 were/are flash suppressors. I am guilty of twisted thinking and bad memory. They were the original reasons the flash suppressors were tested. The signature from them was causing problems during the night stalks against the thermals and NVDs. The signature was significant to say the least. I admit again I was in error they are flash supressors and not muzzle breaks. The muzzle break (stabilizer assembly) was an attachment for the squad auto system on the old M14A1. Sorry guys, screwed up.

Oh yeh and the question/answer is the difference between the Green Berets and Girls Scouts is adult supervision. There Gooch if you wouldn't I will.

Mike - Do not remember Jerry's device on your rifle. Sounds interesting but again as you stated the side signature from venting gas can be a problem. The signature from your weapon was not that great (hehe) I just got lucky (hehe) and spotted it(chuckle chuckle). Sorry Mike could not resist. Hmm what was it that got you Pete? Can't remember.

Jerry - Heck man, I trust Mike to hit what he is shooting. I will stand down range for him to shoot a target. It is actually not too awfully dangerous as long as all know each other and there are reasonable safety precautions taken. LE may want to think NVDs now that the Russian Mafia is scatterin the stuff around for cocaine and stuff like that. They are the new world distributers of the latest and greatest stuff.

I do need to stress that the reasons for our not using flash suppressors or hiders is that there is an increase in the heat signature from vented gases. That signature is also significant when the gases are vented to the sides and up and it disturbs the vegetation. I have not tested all devices but all of them I have tested have failed miserable. Mike, if you can do an IR check with NVDs and let me know on Jerry's device I would like to know. Also what is the change in ballistics caused by the device, if any. This has been a fun thread. What other statements can I make that will cause more incoming?

Cleaning kits in the field I use the Kit and Caboodle pull cable rod. Have problems leting a sectioned rod go down the bore. They can damage lands with the section ends. Use a muzzle guide for sure and pull carefully. The muzzle guide will fit in the cut out section designed for the shot gun plug. Since I'm not using it for my shot gun I don't need that piece of equipment. The cable rod will also knock a case out when it is used for that problem as well.

Better go now before I decide that the muzzle crown is there to reduce recoil. Did I say that?

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 22:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.213)


Cool! I'd like to reiterate Rick's (working on Patron Rick?) sentiment. NO JOINTED RODS! Now for the question. I've checked my muzzle signature from about 50 yards in my mouse gun (5.56mm), friend firing at about 1:00 and saw a BIG flare from AA2230. No muzzle break / flash hider. Since I like Accurate (and VV) powders so much, I worked up a load with the next faster powder, AA2015, which shows a very SMALL signature, a little smaller than that of a tennis ball max (?), with no change in MV. If heat is the culprit with NV, would a faster powder with NO visible signature be bestest? I could sacrafice (SP?) a hundred or so FPS with this weapon to get it light proof at "normal" ranges, as I'm hot rodding it now anyways. AA16whatever is QUICK though.

Has anyone else noticed that SMK's are hard to get? I left someone 7 boxes at Lock, Stock, and Barrel but my first 2 choices were out. Sinclair got the rest of my business, but they were somewhat high price. Rumor has it from LS&B that it's 'cause Sierra went on strike last year and still is having problems filling orders. Specialties over 4 months.

And in the interest of ever increasing ease of living, I've decided to try Hornady's spray case lube. Anyone know if it will damage primers? I'm gonna spray 1500 FN berdan primed new cases for Mike's class, and would hate to see any duds.

Got some MAJOR good info in last US Constitution class, e-mail me off line if interested. Now I KNOW where all this CRAP comes from! Now all I need is another 20 or so semesters and I'll know what I need to!

Semper fi, and where the heck is dinner?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the upside down flag flyin banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:11:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.218)


Reloading,

Well, things are sure looking up. I've narrowed my loads down for my .308 Win to two loads. These loads are the best that I've tested yet...

168gr Sierra HPBT/MK, 46.0gr WW-748, F215GM primer, seated to the lands.

175gr Sierra HPBT/MK, 42.0gr H-Varget, F210GM primer, seated to the lands.

Both of these loads are supremely accurate in my rifle, on a calm day they will print under a 3/8" at 100 yards. But! I do have a wee bit of a problem with run out. So, I ordered a K&M neck turning tool to rectify that problem. I measured the necks very carefully and found that the necks were a bit thicker on one side than on the other.
This resulted in unexpected fliers (those were predicted, and they were marked with the amount of run out in felt marker on the case) and traced to a excessive run out. Once this is fixed I expect my groups to shrink quite a bit.
I was actually suprised that even with a hot barrel the rifle will shott under a 1/2" C to C.

I do have a question to put foreward at this time. How often do you punch the bore on the range? I think I will do so every 15-20 rounds to try to keep fouling to a minimum. After the copper builds up you can plainly see the group begining to spread out.

Last question. I want to start developing loads for my .300 Win mag sendero. What is a good load to start with? Does anyone have trouble with run out on such a short neck? How do you seat your bullets, to lands and grooves? What powder works best? I'm starting with H-4350.
Thanks in advance my brothers!

Semper Fidelis!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.52)


Danny, Re: Offhand Shooting.
Danny, this is the kind of shooting that I mostly do nowdays. I manage to learn a thing or two every time I spend and hour or so practicing. And I am still looking for all the help I can get any way I can find it. I saw a re-run Jag episode where there was a Marine sniper who liked to shoot off sideview mirrors of hum-veee's at over 1000 meters offhand. I taped it and played it over and over and re-discovered a secret that I once knew but forgot. This sounds like I am kidding but I am not.
This Marine sniper had to duplicate a shot that got him into alot of hot water. His whole rest of his life, whether he would be sent to prison or retire honorably from the Marines depended on him making a shot on a sidview mirror of moving Hum-vee at over 1000 meters. The whole time he was standing at attention waiting to be handed a sniper rifle with one round he had this smirk on his face. It drove me nuts! He even had half a smirk on his face while he was aiming the rifle. Anyway, he made the shot.

Lesson learned. You won't make the shot if you don't think you can!
A confident attitude helps some. You gain confidence thru practice.

You guys really got to tape this episode and analyze it to death. It also contains the secret as to why Marines do not worry about the Magnus Effect. I am not giving this one away. It will probably be on the USA channel again in another couple of months or so.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:52:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.61.84)


I've noticed some messages about Accuracy Intl. rifles and equipment. I'd like to report that AI has signed an agreement with the new management at Gunsite Training Academy to be the distributor for the West region (West of the Miss.). I have been appointed as the field rep, and will be receiving demo rifle systems shortly. Should anyone have any questions on AI equipment, please feel free to contact me via email, Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com. I'd especially like to hear from current users of the AI rifles, positive or negative. Having only used an AWP for a short time, my only negative points are the weight (13+ lbs), and I never cared much for thumbhole stocks. Perhaps I can meet up with Scott or Gooch and provide some trigger time on the rifles for a review here at SC. Anyone in the Prescott, AZ area feel free to contact me to set up a demo, I've got 800 yards staked out in the back yard. For qualified buyers, we can arrange to fly to your location, contact me for details.

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Saturday, May 06, 2000 at 23:58:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.189.98)


Gents,

Can anyone offer a pet load for 6MM Rem? I'm using a 24" barrel with a 1 in 10 twist. I prefer about an 80 grain bullet but will appreciate any accurate loads you can offer.

Thanks!
 

Roger Lays <rlays@zbzoom.net>
PA, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 00:07:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.120.227)


As usual, a strictly useless question here, but with all this discussion about flash hiders and NVD I have to ask.

How much sniping is done after dark to even worry about NVD signature?

Told you it was a useless question!

Bolt now goes back to Plaster's and Lau's books to look up the answer, out.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 01:44:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.147.33)


Well, you guys are right about those sectionalized rods. I cleaned a .223 Savage FP prairie dogger with one about 3 times a week for about 5 years. After 10000 rounds or more, the accuracy had faded to about 1 moa. Wouldn't want that to happen. By all means use something else when your 10000' amsl at -5 deg below zero, with a case stuck in your 300 Win mag.
That's happened to me and all I could think about was the .00000001"
dent I was gonna put in that rifling with that rod...and the beer I was gonna have if I ever got back to camp. You see grasshoppers out there, that's the difference between casual shooters like me and real serious Snipe's. It's all in the stiffness of their rods!
Bolt; you got to quit bringing up all this frivial stuff, you should know that night snipin is about all done after dark! I can't see my MIl Dot master after dark anyhow. If you look real quick while that flash is there you can ....almost get a readin but them dots is hard to read on a target about midnight.
Fergive me already!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 04:32:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bravo,

The Hornady One-Shot case lube is good and easy to use, but keep it away from the plastic MTM Case Gard loading trays if you use them.

The solvent in it will melt the tray and you will end up with mozzarella-type strings of plastic on your cases.

Wooden trays work fine.

They (Hornady) reckon it is harmless to primers or powder.

Also, make sure you wait for a couple of minutes for the solvent to fully evaporate or the cases can stick in the dies.

With a name like One-Shot its got to be good for sniper ammo :-)

Sniff.
 
 

Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
Auckland , New Zealand - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 04:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.96.49.197)


I have a 6mm-.284 varminter gun. I'm looking into loading moly bullets for it, mainly for barrel wear purposes. Right now, it's wearing a shilen heavy barrel (on an improved mauser). What's the word on moly and barrel wear? If it doesnt help a lot, I might as well stick with my regular match bullets.

Dconrad
Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
manhattan, ks, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 08:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.189.101.113)


Derek...

There have been many write-ups on moly, and the argument as to weither it aids to accuracy still goes on... but as to barrel wear, it's of zero help.
Barrels don't wear from friction. If that were the case, it would be the muzzles that went first. The burn out from flame temperature, and it happens in the throat, and your 6x284 is one of the barrel burning-est calibers there is!
So every time you fire a round, drop 50 cents in the jelly jar, so you will have the price of a new barrel just when that one is a goner!

Bill R...
You ol' yote bate... you mean to tell me you bought the day version of the Mil-dot Master. Shame on you... get the night version... it lights up green like a timex watch ;))

Rick...

The muzzle crown "IS" there to reduce recoil, and the stepped ones are more betterer than the round ones, and you know that! ;))

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 10:17:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)


Any of you propeller heads that know about de-fraging an 80gig Mac striped RAID, drop me an e-mail.
(No guys... it's not a bunch of prisoners in flack jackets, raiding a Duncan Donuts ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 10:25:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)


Master Rick,

What got me busted at the Carlos Match????

I cain't really remember but it had to be one of these memorable lines:
 

Choice A-

"Flopping like a Bass out of water" courtesy of Sinister Dave.

"Flopping like a Bass out of water" courtesy of Sinister Dave.

"Flopping like a Bass out of water" courtesy of Sinister Dave.
 

Choice B -

"You Idiot (my addition) thats the wrong color camo for the vegetation" Courtesy unnamed observer

"You Idiot (my addition) thats the wrong color camo for the vegetation" Courtesy unnamed observer

"You Idiot (my addition) thats the wrong color camo for the vegetation" Courtesy unnamed observer

Choice C-

"Keep your Freaking head down!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Keep your Freaking head down!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Keep your Freaking head down!!!!!!!!!!!"
 

Have a GREAT WEEKEND folks
 
 

Pete "The Trim Painter" R <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 11:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.59)


There you go again Lito' told everybody but me about them nite masters. And now somebody tells me it wasn't the rod at all that ruined that Savage barrel, it's cause I didn't break it in right that it only lasted 5000 rounds. Next they'll be tellin me it was the water I used to cool it off durin them 50 shot strings.
Mac who? Got fragged? He was probably sellin moly bullets to minors!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 12:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
6X284 barrel life;
Derek, "THE MOLLY WILL NOT IMPROVE YOUR BARREL LIFE" all it will do is foul your bore, been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. As for barrel life, it seems to be about 1800 rounds when shot in a SS barrel. You cannot ride it hot and hard and it needs a little cleaning. I am on my third barrel in my 6X284 now and I shoot with two other guys that use them also. It is a great long range cal. and the barrel life is not bad, try a 22 Cheetah, but if you need to shoot long range you must pay for it with shortened barrel life no matter what cal. you pick.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 13:25:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.193.94)


Any of you guys (a figure of speech) played with the 8MM Rem Mag for 1000 yd shooting? Doesn't seem to be much for bullets stateside. Are there any match grade bullets available in Europe or elsewhere that someone could fill me in on? Thanks.
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 15:05:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.101)
What kind of scope should I put on my 50cal. A US Optics fixed 38X or Us Optics 12X38 power or the leupold Mark IV.
Louis Corkern <adoc_3201@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 16:25:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.88.62.213)
Bruce Robinson to the rescue. Bruce is going to be at the New Mexico clases this June and is bring some NVD's to do testing on Jerry's device with me. What a guy! Thanks Mr. Mil Dot Master!

Rick, I wondered about change in ballistics also, with Jerry's device, but that rifle has the most velocity of any 308 Win I have ever used. Depending on lot I get anywhere from 2650 to 2720fps out of Federal 175's, in 70 degree temps. The thing groups very well, all day long, and recoil is reduced greatly. I imagine the IR signature will be about that of a surpressed weapon. Have you done any studies on them Rick?

Multi Piece Cleaning Rods are the equal to Multi Purpose anything. Good for nothing. I use the same pull through as Rick for the field. Black Hawk sells the kit with a Alice Clipped case for about 30.00. Next question

Louis, I am a big fan of US Optics, but 36 is too much power for anything being shot past 200 yards. I would go with one of the fixed power models of 15-19 power for the fifty. I am going toi test one of the SN3's in 3x17 on a couple of fiftys in June. I will let you know how it goes, but I prefer fixed powers for fiftys and nothing fixed over 20X. US Optics lenses are so much clearer than the MK4's that you have to see them side by side to beleive it. The MK4 has and will continue to be a scope I would bet my life on. Either brand is an excellent choice.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 16:52:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.59)


What's the best way to paint an HS Precision stock on the 700P so that the paint won't scratch off? Thanks in advance, Dan
Dan <djnolan@mindspring.com>
Redneck City, GA, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 17:02:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.41.82)
Updates on the new Leica 800 yard Rangefinder

5/5/00 Dealers were notified by Leica today by mail all shipments of the Leica 800 range finders will cease until July 15th. An upgrade is being done to assure accurate reading. Some of the models shipped so far have had some problems. Anyone with problems should ship the range finder directly to Leica in New Jersey. They will be given top priority with the upgrades.

4/25/00 There has been a report of a high failure rate of the Leica rangefinders from the of the first users to take them in the field. Word is they can only range to about 200 yards and the problem is a bad production run from Portugal. If you have this Leica and are having problems with it, contact Leica . If you are looking to buy one of the new Leica 800 rangefinders, make sure the dealer has the units that are not affected by this problem. Leica and most dealers are aware of the problem and are getting the bad units off the market. If your dealer does not know for sure which units he has, DO NOT buy it.
 
 

spectr17 <spectr17@netscape.net>
Redlands, Kaliforny, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 18:36:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.179.149.147)


CLeaning gear/rods. I've got an article for tactical shooter done regarding this issue. Just waiting to take some pics.

My feeling is:

Primary device for cleaning should be an Otis kit like Rick mentioned.

Secondary would be a sectioned rod just in case you get something lodged in there that the Otis flex rod can't handle like a seriously ruptured case in the chamber.

Sectioned rods aint bad if you PULL them through the bore vice push them through.

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 19:13:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)


I've noticed some of you asking about load data from time to time, so if any of you gents ever need any loading data from the Sierra 50th Anniversary Edition, just drop me an e-mail. I've used the accuracy loads listed here for the .223, 25-06, .308, and the .300 WM and all have proven to be tack-drivers. I will scan which ever cal./ bullet wgt. and attach it to the return e-mail.
dan <danr@acnet.net>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 22:17:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.45.245)
Guys I know this is not the place to plug produsts but I am going to plug someones elses product anyway. I have been using TRGT's Note Books for awhile. They are Right In The Rain paper and they have nylon covers to protect them. Inexpensive as can be and the best note book for field work. Buy some for your field notes. Also take a look at their Data Book and cover. Very nice stuff. They also carry my slings, MilDot Masters, Slope Dopers and several other products. If you are going to my class, be sure to get one or Call TRGT and make sure they have one for you at the class. The class will have Mr. Mil Dot Master,Bruce Robinson stopping by and a writer will be going through the course. Bad news is Gene Econ has been taken away from use by the Army for that week.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 22:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.57)


Quantico's highpower rifle season has started with their first match this weekend. Seems like an all-new crew, with the exception of Staff Sergeant Robert Mango and one or two others. Some amazing hard holders there (one young sergeant scored four consecutive 100-point rapid fire "cleans" at 200 and 300 yards with the M16A2).

Pablito, are you using something like Norton Utilities to de-frag your RAID?

Sniff, an easier and cleaner way of using the Hornady One-Shot is to put your brass in one of those plastic grocery bags (maybe a hundred-odd pieces) and give a single spray. Manipulate the brass in the bag by squeezing a dozen times. It spreads the lube out thinner, and ensures all the pieces are evenly and thinly coated. When you're finished lubing, put the cases in your block and use the plastic bag for rubbish around the reloading table.

Bolt, if you have to put "Eyes-on" a target, and absolutely, positively have to control it, then you have to watch it and cover it with overwatch fire 24 hours a day. That means eyeballs, optics, TV, passive Night Vision, thermals, or a combination thereof. Observing isn't good enough if you have to positively ID friend-or-foe, and have to whack him when he exposes himself or threatens friendlies. US Military term used to be STANO -- Surveillance, Targeting, and Night Observation gear. In sniper terms that may mean hand-held day/night thermal observation devices or sights, active laser illuminators, and a range of other gizmos that must be weather-proof and ruck-stuffable, along with batteries, to operate in GI field conditions. That's why MIL-SPEC stuff is expensive and often heavier than the grunt wants to take. But ever notice that if it really works, he'll always take it with him?

Civilians that think their stuff is invisible to good Passive Night Vision and thermal gear can go ahead and think that. Really. No kidding. Their partners, remember the crack-thump rule, so that you can at least try to figure what direction my incoming is from, and you can try to run behind something solid in my line-of-sight without tripping over the number 1's body (it adds to the "Spirit of the Chase").

Your muzzle can? Three to five rounds and that thing glows like a beacon to a good thermal or FLIR (it also works the other way -- if your suppressor has aluminum parts that cool faster than steel, it will show up under white-hot/black hot contrast switching). Small Arms Review had some excellent civilian color thermal pictures of suppressors and their heat patterns about a year ago.

Aggie Special Ops Trivia:

LTC James Earl Rudder, Commander, 2nd Ranger Battalion, Pointe du Hoc (Utah Beach), June 6, 1944. 16th President of Texas A&M, 3rd President of the Texas A&M University System, "Demonstrated an uncanny ability to inspire men and lead them to exceptional achievement."

What school do you think designed the recoil system for the 105mm Howitzer in the AC-130 Spectre gunship?

Whoooop!
 

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


AAARRGGGHH, all this stuff I am getting and all the practice! Now some Chicom with a NVD and an AK is gonna whack me at night! This is not good, not good at all.

So, the way I see it, no matter what you do to camo and ghillie up, you are still gonna be a sitting sniperduck 24/7. Can I sign up for another wannabee MOS before the match? Anybody up for an M1 Abrams Rendezvous?

What's a sniper to do?

Bolt with head hung low cowers in the dark now, out.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:33:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.73)


Night shooting - yep works well on targets that are not past the wind effect distance. Of course that distance is dependant upon the night the shot is taken. But since reading wind is somewhat of a problem, seeing wind indicators at night is a pain, shooting past the trajectory (wind effect) capabilities of the round is not a sound idea. But yes, many shots are taken at night or at dusk. It actually aids in getting the flip out of dodge after the deed. That is why we giggle whent he military comes up with these scopes to shoot at targets at a range that you would not have a prayer of hitting at night in any whind at all. I imagine you guys can figure those ranges out. Equipment techies have problems with these concepts thus the eqipment is "studied" ayway. We are fighting that battle right now. Any rate Bill, have shot with the M3A until about midnight and saw the dots just fine IF you look to one side and not at the dots or the target. Love the look on students faces when they shoot that scope at night for the first time. Brings a whole new propective on going to the edge of the wood line for a last evening look. :-)

Gooch - Thanks man, forgot about the pulling of the sectioned rod warning. I also highly recommend the use of a muzzle guide with that procedure AND the knocking of the ruptured case procedure.

Dan - Let it scatch off. Adds character and shows you use the weapon and not showcase it. I do know that the boflage (sp?) we use is a pain to get off and that the boflage remover is useless for that task on the H&S Precision stocks. However, all the M24s we send to Remington come back really clean and no paint. Have no idea how they do it. But remember Dan, you may have to change colors as in season, location, or just for the fun of it. It would be nice if the original coats came off easy to allow for the changes.

Mike - I have never used any of Jerry's devices. We also have not done extensive studies on the change in ballistics with other flash hiders. The exception being, and this was not a study just an observation, the present piece of crap hider the army bought destroys the weapons grouping ability.

Louis - Follow Big Mike's advice and forget the big powers. The magnification includes all mirage between you and the target. You will not be able to see the target on most days at the longer ranges except as a dancing glob of dark shimmering goo. Boy, so much for my poetic streak. Stay in the lower powers, not to exceed, 16 if you are warm climate afflicted or 20 power if more mild climate afflicted. The desert has to be seen to be believed at 24 - 36 power.

Enough of my babble time for now. Got a FTX to do again and we get helicopters to jump from this time! Of course being old and decrepid, I'll stay on the ground and shoot any of the students that screw up the link up.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:38:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.199)


Since I've been shooting a Styer SSG PII since 1986, I feel compelled to post a note after reading the current review. Every SSG I've seen (8+) has been 3/4 min or better, using Fed Match. The magazines, though plastic, seem to hold up just fine, I still use the original mag shipped with the rifle. The 10 rounders are no longer available new from Gun South (the importer for Styer), but turn up from time to time on the used market. Hammer forging does indeed leave the bbl with a slight taper towards the muzzle, though I cannot say it makes any differance. I agree the Cyolac stock does feel a bit flimsy, but mine has held up to AZ/CA heat and sun quite well, and it holds paint nicely. McMillan does make a replacement, modeled on the A2, available through Gun South. The scope mounts are STANAG standard, Bock provides commercial mounts as well as Styer. GG&G can provide a Piccatiny rail adapter if you desire. The slope appears to be a moot point, so long as the scope used has a resonable amount of elevation. My rifle currently has a Leupold Mark4 10x, I've got 18 minutes up left after a 1000 yard zero. Since I consider .308 to be a 800 yard max range cartridge, under field conditions, there is no real problem. I've not checked the receiver, perhaps it's already got some slope built in. The factory supplies complete systems using the Kahles 6x scope, the BDC is marked out to 880 yards. As for price, CFI is offering the complete package, rifle, scope and rings for $1799. Since a PSS will run you about $700, then add rings and bases ($200+) and a scope ($900+), I'd say the price is quite fair.

I'd advise anyone buying these to order the single trigger. I've got the double set system, since the single trigger was not available at the time. The extra reach, plus the complexity are not worth the set feature. I've never found a commercial bore guide to fit, I turned my own adapter for my Stoney Point guide from a piece of brass. Single loading is a royal pain, you have to thrust the cartridge forward into the chamber, it won't feed just dropping it into the ejection port. Magazines are a bit pricey, $50 for 5 rounders, $120 or so for 10 rounders if you can find one. The small sling point is moderately annoying, I just use OD nylon webbing as a carry strap, you could use a short loop to make an adapter for a standard US sling. I need the Eagle cheek pad to get a good view through the scope, the Bock 30mm rings seem a bit high, The Styer 1" rings are a bit lower, I have not tried the Styer 30mm's.

As for more gizmos available for the 700, that may be true, but what do you need? The KISS principle, eh?

I will say that if you plan to shoot a few thousand rounds a year, the rebarreling issue would be a problem. While the factory may do it, your local gunsmith is going to have a real problem sticking a new tube on.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Sunday, May 07, 2000 at 23:40:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.30.190.208)


Rick, for my Fraud, Waste, and Abuse bitch for the month -- what knucklehead bought that parkerized piece of pipe the Army calls the M24 brake, and what organization tested it on a real sniper rifle fired by a real marksman?

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 00:49:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


Dave - If I knew the answer to your question I'd go beat the crap out of the guy. We saw the break AFTER the fact, when a guy came to us wanting to know why his weapon now shot like crap. Told him to remove the chunk of junk on the barrel and it will choot again. He did and it does. I imagine it is the same situation as the PVS-10. We tested it AFTER the designation of PVS-10 had been assigned and that it was a done deal. No one liked it and thought it should go away. It did not and that is my second vote for fraud waste and abuse. Ah the fun of making do with techies that know not better.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 01:59:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.153)


I forgot to leave the contact info for returning the Leica rangefinders.

Leica Camera Inc.
156 Ludlow Avenue
Northvale, New Jersey 07647
Tel.: +1(201) 7 67 75 00
Fax: +1(201) 7 67 86 66
E-mail: olesin@aol.com

Your dealer can also do the return but it will be faster if you send the unit directly to Leica North American Service at the above address.

((SPEC OUT))
spectr17 <spectr17@netscape.net>
Redlands , Kaliforny, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 03:05:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.179.148.33)


This was longer than I entended,

I had a fun day today, took a female friend of the family out to do a bit of shooting today. Pretty open minded gal really was looking foward to learning how to do a bit of shooting. Had some fun on the way out to the range doing a little bit of "pretend tag" with the squirrels on the road, I only teased her and never actually got close enough to hit a flea bag. It was fun to hear her squeek.
 

I took a good representation of my collection out for her to try. Before each step up in the next caliber or gun type she received complete instruction on how to handle the firearm she'd be using.

Started her off on the 22lr. bolt action for starters and put a bipod on the front end to make things easier for her. After I had her popping the 12 inch plate at 150 yards with reliable "kentucky windage." I moved her on up to a AR15 space gun which after zeroing for her she managed to nail two hits on a penny at 100 yards after 5 shots. She was so excited she now has the penny on her keychain. It's almost a dead center shot too. After that we had her owning pretty much anything on the hillside out to 300 yards on the range. She got to see what a 40grn Vmax will do to a 2 liter bottle of water, it actually knocked over two other bottles spaced 2 feet and 4 feet to the right of the one she hit.

I found her doing something that I have never seen a new shooter do. She was listening to the buffer spring like a pro, when she heard only half a cycle of the buffer spring she took her hand off the grip and dropped the magazine without pulling the trigger on a locked bolt! I never had to explain it too her it just came naturally as she listened to what the gun was doing. She ran the controls of an AR15 better than some of my friends who have shot guns for a heck of a lot longer than she had.

She took no exception to continuing to shoot 40 rounds out of my SKS many of which were usede trying to hit a plate at 300 yards. She scored about 2 hits in 20 shots or so. The concept of iron sights takes a bit of practice not to mention the problems with SKS sights along with a decent right to left wind blowing on the range.

Next up was the AR10 with 168grn Amax loads that I had just zeroed, she promptly fired 15 rounds of that hitting another 100 yard 2 liter bottle of water. Also hitting a 6 inch steel plate at 200 yards and owning a 12 inch plate at 300 yards.

Only thing that was trouble for her was standing shots because of the upper body strength needed. Back on the bench she did just fine.

Worked some pistol shooting into the day also. Thanks to the cheap 22lr. I bought we managed to do a bunch of clearing of 22lr duds from my Ruger MkII pistol.

After about 5 hours of shooting we were a bit sun burned. Never figured the time was gonna fly by that fast.

She made some great comments where she mentioned that she could see the point of owning a couple different firearms. The idea that not all guns are the same was pretty clear to her but was made more clear by having fired a bunch of them and enjoying herself the entire time.

I'm gonna put this one on the back burner and keep an eye on her and just remember that she is there. As the range manager said, "be nice to that one." I'm gonna wait tell she gets through her first year of college as there is about a 4 year age difference.

Final words,
When sunburned, who needs a girlfriend at night? You have yourself to keep warm!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpatty town, Ca., USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 04:23:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.2.187)


Night Shooting etc.

Thermal - Hey I'm F**K'D with just me,a hot barrel or a bonfire. The one good thing is most of the Thermal systems I've seen are awkward and noisy. (HHMM! A good tgt maybe?)

NVG's or NVS - I can crawl under very small rocks, but seriously it won't (hopefully [always the optimist]) be turned your way at the moment of firing, but I figured I'll try anything that will help. Mike - were going to do some testing on the CAN up North. (Hey Dave three to five rounds? I knew I should have brought the Mag-58)
Night shooting, like Sinister Dave mentioned, has its definite advantages - usually less idiots with AK's banging away at every tree or scrub, after.

The moral of this story is don't fight against highly sophisticated enemies (subvert their economies instead).
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 04:34:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.130.4)


help....Help...HELP!!!!!!!

O.K., somehow I have screwed up. Let me preface that by saying that I don't leave the range until my weapons are properly and thoroughly cleaned. It has also been about 2 1/2 months sense I have been able to shoot my long range rifle. That being said here is what happened. I pulled my rifle out of the case last night and played with it a little. I got a sick feeling in my stomach when I looked down the barrel from the muzzle end and noticed a light layer of rust in the grooves. There was not rust any where else, just the grooves of the barrel. How did it happen? I don't know. I keep it well cleaned and oiled. I haven't had it around moisture either.

How to I get rid of it? I did a cleaning last night and it did not go away. How much damage have I done?

Damn,what a feeling I have in my gut!
D. Hurley <dhurley@mikemarrs.com>
Temple, Texas, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 12:20:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.215.10.193)


D. Hurley,

Are you sure it is rust? It could be a layer of copper fouling. Get some Sweet's 7.62 bore cleaner and see if it comes out. A friend of mine has an M2 fifty Cal, and it looked like the barrel was full of rust...but it was copper fouling.
 

Good Luck,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:02:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.188)


D. Hurly...

If what you have is really rust, the next shot or two you fire will solve your problems, it'll blow out with the bullets.

But there is the posibility that it is copper down in the corners of those rascally groves, that didn't come out during your quick effort at the range.

It's all well and proper to run a patch or two through the bore at the range, but that's just going to get the powder fouling out.
The copper jacket materal will need contact with solvent for longer, to desolve, especially when tucked down in the corners of the groves.

Try Hoppes BR cleaner, or Hoppes #Ni... nin... aw skit, you know, the stuff that smells so good (I don't want to start a cleaning war again!).
Let the stuff soak for 15 minutes, and wet patch it again, soak for 15 minutes, and repeat until they come out clean enough to re-box.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.93)


Thanks Pablito and Bill B., I will give it a real good go at cleaning tonight. I don't think it is copper but I can hope. It is not oncommon for myself to spend well over an hour cleaning at the range, so I would hope that my efforts were not a waste. Then again, I have not been using sweets. I'll pick some up today and give it a try.

Thanks again guys for the quick response.

D. Hurley
D. Hurley <dhurley@mikemarrs.com>
Temple, Texas, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:28:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.215.10.193)


What experience I've had with NV leads me to believe that the best and only defense against real heat sensors or even simple night vision is to use the same precautions that you do during the day.
bullets still won't go through dirt barriers or large rocks and thick trees.
Fox holes are good. The worst mistake is just to forget that the oposition has NV and depend on darkness for cover. Thin weeds and camo is no defense and it's best not to forget that. Good idea to have some NV too. If it's a consideration that the opposition might
have it. NV & INFARED heat sensors from the air is a real problem. Best to make the first shot count on the pilot if you can.
If it was infallable they would have caught that Olympic Bomber by now probably. Just keep to cover even when it's dark and move through the country through creek bottoms and draws instead of ridges at night. Limits the detection range. Rick what's your take on what I say here. I think you're used to swampy country maybe there's some trick to that one.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:28:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Hi,
I'm looking for some TACTICAL SHOOTER magazine past issues,from Feb.98 to Sept.98,please can someone help me ?
Thanks and regards.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 13:45:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.11.34.43)
Greetings to all. Have odd question and hoped someone in crew could steer me either clear or in the right direction. Was reading the R. Blake Steven's book "M-14 from John Garand to the M-21" this weekend and came across something that puzzled me. The chapter was one of dealing on accuracy development in the Light .30 caliber round and the rifle for it. It was a report written by then Col. Moore of the Aberdeed Proving Grounds. In his typical concise fashion he listed all the particulars of the rifle and the ammuntion. In the section concering the ammunition he lists the propellant specifications as so much of 4895 and 1gr of A4 Black. What the heck ia A4 Black????

Bo Gunsmith <bo@ashleyoutdoors.com>
Ft.Worth, TX, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 14:56:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.76.50)


Just a comment on Thermal Imagers (FLIRS)...

I use a civvy FLIR almost every day of the week. The fire service here in the US is witness to a massive buying frenzy of these handheld devices since they simply allow you to see through smoke. The state of NJ just funded a bill to buy one unit for every municipality... at a cost of approx $8,000./unit!

The latest and greatest units are like looking through a black and white video camcorder...they have very sensitive optics that can pickup deer in the woods at 200+ yards (that's the extent of my testing)

In five years, they'll be within the $5,000 per unit cost range, will weigh less than 2 lbs and will last a good four hours per NiMH battery charge. The military is the source for all this tech, imagine what their units will be able to do.

food for thought.

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 15:07:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


Jim...
Are you talking about day IR, or thermal (Heat signature, like warm engine hoods, or warm bodies)?
Not the same beastie.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 15:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.88)


I wasn't saying it is impossible to Beat thermal - stay low out of los. During a few stalks some tried to hold a parka or blanket out in front of them in order to block it - the best method was one of the 'emergency' foil blankets covered in a ranger blanket hoisted on a branch. It fools most thermal imagers but not the Mk I eyeball.

Just that it is another added concern to add to why things are seen.

Jim - FLIR forward looking infra-red isn't thermal.
The IR light spectrum while not visible to humans is not the same as the Heat energy radiated from heat sources. - I am not smart enough to discourse in greater depth. -'lito, Dave, Rick etc. comments
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 15:52:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.30)


A4 Black: commonly called "carbon black" as used in polymers. Also for dry lubrication, not quite graphite, but same all carbon composition. Similar to what is used on powders (the grey stuff that rubs off). If you get it on you, it DON'T come off!

Dave, Rick: how common is it for patrols to get these kind of goodies? Is FLIR and the NV goodies something that one worries about when observing a firebase, a mechanized convoy, or a two squad patrol in the woods? Hard to beleive that a patrol would carry it, maybe company sized group?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 17:07:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


I need some information on the frequency in which police sniper teams should train. Can you help?
Jody O'Guinn <Sarge8705@aol.com>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 17:37:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.206)
Kevin:
"The IR light spectrum while not visible to humans is not the same as the Heat energy radiated from heat sources." Sorry, but....it IS.

Infrared is toward one end of the "VISIBLE" light spectrum, UV being at the other end. A warm iron object emits "invisible" (to human eyes) IR up to around 800 F when it enters the visible (to human eyes) spectrum as "red hot".

Then you have all sorts of wavelength stuff outside that band. But IR is most definitely the commonly used thermal imaging technique. (You COULD use a few thousand thermocouples in an array if you could connect them all.) If you can snore through it, there is an article that goes into more IR detail in "Articles.....", "Small arms....." "Infrared....." http://www.snipercountry.com/IRSniper.html

But in a nutshell: The "warmth" from a pot belly stove gets to you in more than one way; CONTACT if you touch it; CONDUCTED via the air between you and it; and IR energy being EMITTED by the stove and ABSORBED by your skins nerves. IR imagers use the emitted IR. An "infrared heatlamp" is no doubt putting out IR, but a lot of visible too. An incadescent IR light source is just a flashlight (hot filament) with a filter to block the visible wavelengths....The IR passes through. If you have an IR/NV scope, try shining a flashlight thru a common black plastic trash bag. Depending on the manufacturer of the bag, it will work.

Paul, lurking under a space blanket...hiding from aliens, not IR!!
 

paul <paul_f_mickey@ameren.com>
Illinois, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 17:52:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.51.215.201)


Kevin...

The Thermal viewers use true "heat" to form the images... the wave lenght is 30 to 50 times as long as "IR", and resolution sucks!

True "IR" is just below the visible spectrum... normally considered .725 to 2.0 microns (725 to 2000nm).

You guys can worry all you want about thermal detection, but it's expensive, uncomon, and anybody that has it, has a lotta other expensive stuff to ruin your day...

It's true "IR" that's your real threat, wheither it's "FLIR", or a "Day IR Scope", they will bust you with it, and tag you too!

A "Day IR Scope" will make your best effort at a wookie suit, look like a black bear in a snow field... and it doesn't even need to be on the gun sights...

The spotter says...

"See the house"
"Yup!"
"Down 4 oclock, ten mils... see the tree?"
"Yup"
"See the three bushes one mill at 3 oclock"
Yup!"
"Shoot the left bush!"
"BANG!"

You just died in the best wookie suit you ever made, cuz the spotter saw a snow white field, with two bushes, and a dark shaggy bear with a black rifle.

Day IR scopes can be hade for a few hundred bucks... and they're showing up in the North West, where scouts watch over Marjuana
fields, and the poor LE guy that thinks he's sneeking up, is in plain view.

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:08:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.67)


Paul...

You are wrong as you can be...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:11:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.67)


I do not pretent to have a comprehensive understanding of what the state of the art is with regard to thermal imaging or infra-red. The devices we use in house fires are described using the terms "FLIR" and "TIC" (Thermal Imaging Camera).

The older versions are very similar to the ones used by the navy for ship-board firefighting (made by a three letter acronym company "EEV")

The latest cameras, available from Scott, ITT, MSA, Bullard, Cairns, Fire Research, TI, and Raytheon (I believe)...produce much crisper inverse B/W images. They are effective with zero light, through heavy, heavy smoke and they work in wet environments of +500 F.

Would someone explain to me what "day IR" is, or how a "Mark I eyeball" is different than the technology I'm familiar with.
 

James Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:13:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


I have attached a link to the website of the thermal camera that won the New Jersey State bid. Every community in NJ will get one this year.

If we have em' you can bet any drug dealer with $10,000 can get em'.

http://www.thermalimager.com/main.html

Jim Mitchell

Jim Mitchell <James_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 18:22:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


Hey fellas, I'm new here so be gentle...or haze the hell out of me :^) I'm considering the purchase of a Leupold 6-24X mil dot scope. Why the high power variable? I'm a varmint hunter. Why a 308 for varmints? Well, I like the idea of lobbing in the big pills on little targets. I figure just about anyone can shoot a copper-ion laser beam (22-250) at a chuck. It's an added level of complexity to call in the artillery. Plus, it'd permit me to share ammo with my FAL in a pinch.

Anyhoo, my question is with range cards. I've seen two varieties:
1. Shooter must know actual target size and number of mils subtended . Table only provides range, not the required number of clicks.
2. Shooter calculates range using mil eqn (same eqn used to produce the previously mentioned table), then uses card to determine elevation moa, and windage moa (lists moa for 1mph perpendicular wind).

So how do military snipers use range card? Are there two cards? Do you get real good at mental arithmetic (mil eqn)? Do you simply memorize parts of the puzzle?

Sorry for the long post, but I've looked around the site and haven't found satisfactory info on using mil dot scopes and constructing range cards. BTW, I've read the tips section on mil dots, and it shows a card just like type 1.

Thanks
Byron
Byron <bef122@psu.edu>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 19:22:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.118.19.11)


Jim.... I went to that site, and what you guys are getting, is classical "Thermal Imaging" equipment. Good stuff.
A good friend has an earlier military one, that requires a bottle of compressed Argon, to cool the array, butit's very sensitive.

The sensitivity range of your unit is 8 to 14 microns (8,000 to 14,000 nm)... way too low for camoflage detection.

"Day IR Scopes" have the ability to see green painted camoflage items (your wookie suit, and OD rifle) hidden in the grass, bushes, or trees, by detecting the difference in reflectivity of real IR (.725-2.0 microns) between chlorophyll and non-organic green things. It was first used in WW2 by arial recon, using IR film, to detect green camo painted concrete bunkers for bombing runs... and required developing, and printing, yadda, yadda...

Now it is do-able with a little hand held thingie about the size of a cam-corder.

If there is natural vegatation, you see it all in snow white, and the wookies in dark gray, or black.

Bad to be caught in your wookie suit with one of these.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 19:29:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.67)


D Hurley, Re: Rust.
You did not say what kind of rifle and ammo you were using. But the only time I have seen the type of rust you describe is with corrosive primed ammo. I ruined a couple of barrels in my younger years shooting cheap foriegn Berdan primed ammo that was advertised as non-corrosive. It wasn't. Suspect all berdan primed ammo as being corrosive! This only requires a slightly different cleaning procedure from you normal routine. First the barrel must be cleaned with either hot soapy water or Window cleaner, preferably at the range. then clean as normal. A couple of days later repeat the hot water treatment. and normal cleaning and oiling routine. If you clean with just Hoppe's or any other modern day cleaning solvent it will not kill the salts that is in the primer residue. The barrel will still rust even under a layer of oil film.
How much damage is done is hard to say. Once a barrel is pitted, it is pitted forever. That does not necessarily mean that it won't shoot good anymore.
I just scoped a M48 cheapo Yugo 8mm K98 mauser. The lands looked strong but the grooves were decidedly on the dark side with visible pits. Yet the darn thing will shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards that you can cover with a quarter with good handloads.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 19:35:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.61.20)
That day-IR thing sounds pretty tough to beat. What happens if you use a high percentage of natural vegetation for your ghillie, does the heat signature over-lay and betray?

I guess I wasn't all that clear about what I thought the fire service units would be good for...if your looking for "bad guys" at night, as the temerature is changing...they'll show up just like you describe, a big white form on a black background....

The greater the temp contrast, the easier they are to spot. The resolution is about the same as the helo images they show on "COPS" or the gunsight video from Desert Storm. Having practiced some, I can even get some depth perception with it.... I can "walk quickly" through dense brush with the unit in the deepest, darkest night...or right through obscuring smoke. I very often run (bent over) through house fires where we used to crawl.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 19:42:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


Bravo762,
OK so if the A4 Black is a graphite like substance what is it there for? Did they have to add more to get it to meter well? Today there is 4895SC which is a smaller granule to improve metering. 4895 like all powders already has such material in its mix from the factory. 4895 has never been know as a smooth flowing powder. No other tech spec listing for 7.62X51, 30-06,50BMG,etc... that I remember seeing ever listed A4 Black as an element of the charge or as a seperate component. Maybe it one of those things that is done as a matter of course for military ammo and is so common that it is not normally called out in the specs.
Hmmmmmmmmm?????????
Bo Gunsmith <bo@ashleyoutdoors.com>
Ft.Worth, TX, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 20:27:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.76.50)
'Lito: Please email details. I concede I erred in that IR is BELOW the visible range, but need to discuss other.
Paul <paul_f_mickey@ameren.com>
IL, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 20:46:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.51.215.201)
Bravo...
Is A4 a crystaline stuff like graphite, or amorphous like lamp black?

Jim... it's not about heat signature... Thermal devices use heat and heat signatures... IR is like visible light, except we can't see it.
Think of IR as a color like read, blue, green and IR... A light falls on a red cloth, and the blue, green, and IR are absorbed, the red is reflected, making it look red.
With green cloth, the blue, red, and IR are absorbed, making it look green.
With any plant that has chlorophyll, it will absorb blue, and red, and reflect green and IR...
If you have a device that is only sensitive to IR, it will see the reflected IR, but not the green, and the plant will look white, but the green cloth looks dark, or black because the device doesn't "see" green.
With thermal scopes, the target has to be a different temprature, or it won't show up... with IR, the temprature can be the same... it's the IR reflectivity that "Blows your cover"!

Paul...
I'll sent you an e-mail... I've already bored everybody enuff!

Pablito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 21:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.97)


'lito what about IR suppression?
- there are compounds out there that you can spray/apply to clothing to do this. - For years the CF has been nuts with IR suppressant for clothing and paints for vehicles etc. (or is it one more lie, to make me feel invincible)

Our 'portable' true thermal stuff has such a loud fan that it just sort of blows your cover anyway - so its not much of a use at an OP/LP.

** natural veg is a must in your ghillie **
I thought that most burlap etc. was partial IR suppressant? (another lie?)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 22:12:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.129.204)


Here are some websites for thermal stuff:

http://www.af.mil/news/Apr1996/n19960404_960307.html

http://www.x20.org/thermal/thermal_weapon_sight.htm

http://216.22.251.97/thermal-imaging-hughes-anpas.htm

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 22:40:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


More A4: I don't know what it's PURPOSE is, just WHAT it is. My guess? I would think that it's a burn rate modifier. The cylinderical powders are hollow tubes, making a kind of "shape charge" that burns at completely different rate than the same powder formed in a sphere. I've been told that this is the purpose that the graphite serves, after the kernels are formed. I've never had any under a microscope, but it's so tremendously light, that if one was to have (trust me on this one) about 30 ml volume of some in a weigh pan, and sneeze (small, not like in a crowded elevator), it's COMPLETELY gone. Tremendously light, and it weighs virtually nothing. Used to have to measure the content in polymers, including some dash boards from the Arlington, Texas GM plant!

And Patron 'Lito: you're way off the mark on that one, I'm no where NEAR bored of the subject. Dunno if I'd ever use it, but if I'm forced to, it'd be mighty nice to know what's out there, and how to defeat it (if there actually is a way).

Between this and the flash hider thread, I'd say everyone should be getting their "entertainment" from "the regulars" ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic forerly known as the, USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 22:55:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.157)


Kevin...
On IR suppressants... I donno' Dude. I've heard of them for years, and I know that some military sub-contractors claim to have them, but I've yet to actually see one. It would have to be clear like water to visible light, and be almost like "Silver" to IR... a tough combination. I've looked at "IR treated" cloth through a IR scope, and "Busted!!", it stands out like a lump of coal, in Snow Whites Boudoir.

I've done searches, and come up with nada... I think you are right...
"It makes you invisable to the enemy, so go charge that bunker!!"
Yeah... right!

Some of the hunting camo says it's been "IR Treated"... but what the hell does that mean... treated for what? They don' say!

Bravo...
If you're not bored with this... you're nuts... come on down to Storm in september, and I buy you a brewski :))

'lito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 08, 2000 at 23:26:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.97)


Bill Rogers, you are another step closer to sniper enlightenment. Good points, day or night.

Just remember, if you can see it, you can hit it.
If you can hit it, you can kill it.

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfarifax.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 00:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


Byron - Me thinks you are confusing range cards with range tables. Anyway, the military uses a formula for determining the range to the targets, or cheats and uses the table if the target is of a size listed on the table. The sniper then consults his sniper log for required dope for that range(actually a little card). The "range card" is a series of semi circles upon which the sniper depicts a portion of the earth's surface as seen from above. The card has the semi circles there so that the sniper can rapidly estimate the range to a target that "pops" up and can be engaged with minimal fuss and bother. Each semi circle equals, normally but necessarily always, 100 meters. Within the card are placed target reference points that the observer can use to rapidly talk the sniper onto the target and aid in range estimation. Even with all that the little table is needed to say that 525 meters requires 5+1 on the M3A scope and this LOT of ammo to hit.

IR and Thermals - Yes, in the world of the military these are way to common and are to be avoided if possible. If you are targeting an objective with tracked vehicles you are going up against some of the finest stuff that will whack you with really BIG bullets. Another point to remember is that heat puts out IR waves in the complete spectrum. The little hand held viewers have got to be seen to be believed. Never seen an IR suppresant that even came close. The BDUs positively glow! If you want to feel truely helpless, try defeating the big Spectre Gunships and their IR systems on board that dam aircraft. Ran around the jungle in Panama for three nights while they lit us up with those great honkin lights of theirs. Used them instead of the guns thank you very much. But be in your best hidy hole with your best camo and night becomes day.

Kevin - Burlap looks like only one thing, burlap. Burlap will aid in defeating thermal signature to a degree as it spreads it out, BUT it will also heat up and glow on it's own.

Dave - You left one thing out that WAY TOO MANY snipers seem to forget, ask the students of today's debacle on a stalk. If you can see your target, then your target can see you. If you can be seen then you can be engaged. If you can be engaged then you WILL be killed. It is the same as the stalk in and to forget you must get away to play again.

Oh well, hope we added a little dry mouth to the fun and games.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 00:51:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.186)


O.K. gents,for any of you looking for ballistic info on the various Federal Gold Medal loadings, just do a search for Federal Cartridge Company. Then hit the table of contents and hit the Federal Hunt Club. Join it, it does'nt cost anything and download it to your desktop for quick access. They have it set-up to where you can access any ballistic (out to 1,000 yds)info for any of there loadings. You can change the zero, the temperture and a bunch of other options plus they have a game. If you shoot 155's, 168's, 175's, or 190's, check this out. It's a good source for info.
dan <danr@acnet.net>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 00:53:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.45.128)
Hold on, folks.

"Bruce Robinson to the rescue".......Hardly!!

I have the unique opportunity to hang out with a bunch of shooters in Quemado, with Mike Miller instructing (still a few slots open, guys, so sign up!) and the chance to participate in some T&E with him later.

While I am flattered by Mike's post, and value both his opinions and friendship highly, I must point out that it is my good fortune to be invited to this event. I look forward to seeing what effect various flash suppressors have on night vision, and to working with Mike on a few other T&E details.

Anyone who has not signed up for this class should give some serious thought to doing so. New Mexico is absolutely beautiful this time of year, and you'll meet some great folks.

Buce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 01:25:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.123.31)


I don't know about the thermal imaging stuff much but standard IR is pretty easy to overload. There are some of those little things that put out a white light, kids use them on 4th JUly. Toss one of those
out and IR goes on overload for the time it's glowing. (about a minute or more nobody sees anything with IR If it's a minute you need that's an important one. Wonder if anyone knows what I'm talking about. I have a few of them in a airtight bottle in my pack but I don't know if they are still around and available. A flare will do about the same thing. Even if IR shows you up the oposition couldn't aim their conventional scope or IR because of the bright light. Even your eyes won't work in that direction. Any merit to that? I carry them for flares in case I want to be found in the mountains.
They are only about the size of a Jaw Breaker and can be seen for many miles from the air. Best defense against a search light is another search light, there might be something to that.
IF an an enemy is advancing you could throw one off to the side and
the ground in front is lit for a hundred yards. Your hidden hopefully
but he's not.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 01:28:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


NVD's, Thermal Imagers?
Ach! EMP would take care of those devices.
Of course, you wouldn't want to be anywhere near the battlefield when that happened.

Kevin:
Thermal imagers noisy?
I regret I've never had the opportunity to try a thermal imager, either civilian or military.

Anyone:
How noisy are the military and civilian thermal units?
How much current do the military and civilian units draw?

Does any manufacturer offer a winter hand generator accessory as a replacement for battery use in NVDs in winter.
Run a cable from the NVD to a generator inside a jacket.
Squeeze a few times to charge the unit.
A bit noisy I suppose, but better than depending upon batteries all the time.

Bravo:
Is the carbon in laser printer cartridges of any use as a substitute for A-4 Black?

Gladiator:
If you haven't seen it yet, go.
It has a few quirks in the details; late renaissance armor on Russell Crowe's horse and I've never heard of the Roman ARMY using Greek Fire ( sorta like napalm ).
Otherwise excellent.
I wonder if Hermann of the Cherusci tribe is looking for a few good barbarians?

Oh yeah,
Hosting a party? Try: http://www.vvenus.com/mindf_ck/romorgy.htm

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 02:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)


Hi Guys,
Been lurking for a couple of years, occasionally post when I think that I have something worthwhile to add.

Learned a trick from a high power shooter the other day and saw somebody posting about case lube.

My friend uses graphite powder (only for neck sizing) as a lubricant for reloading.

You must take care not to overdo it, about 1/4 inch of the powder in a bottle lid does it.

I clean the cases at the range as I shoot them with Hoppes No 9, or tumble them at home, Then I get a case-neck brush, dry and brush clean the inside of the case necks.

Next step, when you are just starting reloading for the session, dip the case neck in the graphite (it should only go about halfway up the neck) and make sure to tap the excess out of the neck (the vacuum inside the case can sometimes hold a plug of powder in the neck).

Dip the first few cases (up to 5) in the graphite, then reduce it back to about every third case, of course if it feels like there is a little too much resistance it might have to be done every time, depending upon your dies.

You might not be able to see the powder on the cases, only a very small amount actually sticks to them.

I don't bother cleaning off the residue, the neck of the case takes on a slightly greyish tinge on brass cases, with federal nickel plated it makes no difference.

Just a thought.

Dave.
 

Dave Groves <david.groves@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT, Australia - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 03:39:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.102.38.195)


HP Tactical Match at Sacramento Valley Shooting Center, May 7, 2000

It was "Mudville": cool (low 50s), heavy overcast, drizzel, rain, not exactly what we expect for May in California. Early in the week the weather folks had called for high 80s on Sunday, oh well. 17 shooters without any new shooters. Actually it would have been a good match for new shooters as it was dead calm during the first relay and almost that still for most of the second relay. Zero windage was the sight setting at 1000 yards for the first relay, though few actually used it.

The match was won by Ed Eckhoff, 305/2X shooting a Rem Sendaro in 300 Win Mag. This is Ed's first win, if you don't count the "No Bull" win last week. Ed seems to be "in the zone" right now. Second went to Carl Critz (285/2X, 280 AI), with Harry Dwyer (271/3X, 308) third. This is the fourth time in five matches that it took over 300/360 to win.

This is a fun shoot. Anyone interested in long-range shooting should come shoot with us on the first Sunday of the month at 0800.

Dee

Dee Turner <deeturner@jps.net>
Roseville, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 03:41:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.119.27.210)


Ok, so IR can distinguish between ornganic and non-organic material. If the ghillie we are using (hopefully) is made up of 60-70% natural material taken from the area in which we are operating, and not just burlap, hemp, etc., will that diffuse our signature? And, if so, for how long before that fades.....until the foliage wilts? And, lets say that our ghillie suit is just the traditional burlap heap, but we are operating in a very dry winter grassy area....what is the difference between dry dead grass, and dry dead burlap, that used to be organic at one time? Rick...any info?
Frank < Harto4@aol.com>
Ft.Worth, Tx., USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 06:25:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.178)
Update on barrel rust:

O.K. so I panicked, shoot me. Bill B. and Pablito were correct (of course), it was copper fouling. I don't know how it got by me. Chalk it up to murphy, I guess. Anyhow, sweets 7.62 cleaned her up real good.

Dennis humbly retreats with his tail tucked firmly between his legs.

Thanks for the fast help guys.
D. Hurley <dhurley@mikemarrs.com>
Temple, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 13:34:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.215.10.193)


Well we have worked on this IR Thing pretty well. I will let every one know the outcome of the New Mexico Tests on Jerry's device. Bottom line what Rick said. If you can see them they can see you. Just try and make a smaller image of your self and harder to pick up.

Dee Thomas, I have never seen the wind not blow at Mudvillle when I was there. I think the last time I shot I had five minutes on for a 1000 yards with the 300 Mag 220's and my hat tied to my head. You Tease!

Tony from Barrett and I talked yesterday. My next project, testing the new XM107 and the models 99 and 82A1, are being shipped today. These should be fun to shoot on the off hours of New Mexico.

I shot some of the Navy Length 300 Win from Black Hills the other day. It is a special order item. That stuff is great! No need to reload the 300Win with Black Hills around. They are also doing a 338 Lapua with 300 grainers. Now whne HS ships my 338 Lapua I will be ready.

Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 13:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.46)


Utgardaloki: I've never had a need to analyze printer toner, so I don't know what it is. Educated opinion? Dunno.

OK, so everyone now knows that there is day and night stuff to get us busted. Let's ask the $20,000 question: HOW DO WE DEFEAT IT? If the BDU treatment is a farse, what DOES work? Just a prayer that they don't send a Spectre to help spot us at the next Storm jambouree?

Well, I guess I'll go to the emporium and look for a couple of "like new" surplus stingers ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 17:01:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


It just occurred to me that the day-IR imaging stuff Pablito and the others have described is superior technology to what the "Predator" brought to hunt mankind ... if you remember, wet mud defeated the predator's thermal vision.

Anyone heard anything about shoulder mounted laser cannons or is that technology lagging?.... How about the light bending electronic ghillie?
Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 17:09:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


hullo,
i went to your emporium sec but i cannot e mail back the other
party...cause i really want to buy those bdu's.hope u can
help me with this.
tq,
azeze
azeze nathan <geovidn@hotmail.com>
kuala lumpur, w.persekutuan, malaysia - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 17:25:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.106.88.109)
Jim...
The "wet mud" thing has validity, "If" the mud is still cold, and hasn't had a chance to warm up to body temprature. Once it starts to get warm (won't take long), you will be an easy mark.

I agree with "Sinister Dave's" comment...
"Just remember, if you can see it, you can hit it.
If you can hit it, you can kill it."

But not totally with Rick's...

"If you can see your target, then your target can see you. If you can be seen then you can be engaged. If you can be engaged then you WILL be killed."

The nature of Camoflage (in the bigger sense than BDU's or Wookie suits) is to see, and not be seen.
For LE, that may be "Hide in plain sight" as a bag lady on a park bench, watching a deal go down.

In S.E.A., The VC did it to us all the time, as peasents in a village, and watched us "in plain sight".

If your subject is a minor player, or a "Big shot" in a third world country, you may be up against nothing more that a pair of bins (but don't count on it)... on the other hand, if the subject is a major player, or heavy politico, you're going to be up against every toy in the trick bag.

The main thing is to know your enemy's capabilities, and equipment, and like BR said... never assume you're invisible, day or night.

Rick - "Sinister" ... your thought's.

Pablito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 18:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.90)


Printer Toner:
 

consists of darkly colored tiny plastic beads, polystyrene I think. The photoreceptor drum or belt is loaded with static electriciy in a way to form the image, the paper picks up the charge which attracts the little beads, which are then melted to the paper as it passes through the fuser assembly, thus yielding a finished copy. IN other words, it is designed to melt and stick to things. I can only imagine the unholy mess it would make if mixed with smokless propellant.
 

-Tom
Mmm...Shooters Choice works on wad fouling in shotguns...but this mess?
 
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 18:29:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.213.119)


I am interested in a replacement trigger for my remington 700 PSS, or just information about tuning the existing one for a crisper lett-off. The trigger as delivered from the factory is rairly light, but mushy and long...i understand they are adjsutable.

Any information about making these adjustments, or anecdotes related to replacement units is appreciated.

thanks

please reply to me directly at jgleason@gunder.com
 

yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
menlo park, ca, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 20:03:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)


Hello all, Has anybody had any dealings with Hesse Arms? In particular the two rifles I am looking at are the FAL Congo and the M98V5 in .308. Maybe if you've got the time (yea right) and the inclination you could visit their site, Hessearms.com, and give me an opinion of the M98? TIA
DB
Donald Banks <dbanks@io.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 20:43:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.105.118)
Gonna get a bit off topic here guys but if I don't get this out now I'll probably forget about this.
 

After a conversation about 1911s I had last night with a couple of guys. I was left wondering about something. I happen to be a big fan of what the 224Boz represents in the way of a new kind of pistol round. Since it seems to be intent of the company that is producing this round to not make it available to civilians(can't say I blame them) is it feasible to make a 1911 in the 224Boz styling? Say have custom dies made either to the specs of the original cartridge or close to it. I figure the company might protect it's development by not allowing custom dies to be made that are copys of their design so that would force you to make a small change so that the die no longer was of the same design.

I figure from a legal standpoint as long as you aren't using AP bullets in the cartridge(which would be a big no-no in a handgun) then you should be able to go along with whatever plans you had for making the pistol. I really love the idea of a flat shooting handgun round that could actually hit something at 100 yards. I think the claimed velocity is up around 2200fps from a 5-6 inch barrel with a 40grain bullet(correct me if I'm wrong please).

From the articles I've read there are issues with properly timing the barrel lugs to the slide. There are also problems with this round beating the hell out of the breach face of the slide. Changing recoil springs is also mandatory from what I remember, I think they went lighter on the spring and perhaps lightened the slide to aid in cycling. I figure the barrel would be a pretty hard thing to have made and chambered.

Smoking Hole pistol design helped make a couple of these guns awhile back and they solved the problem of beating the heck out of the breach face by using Infinity slides with interchangable breach face inserts. They were also able to harden the part beyond what the slide required so that the performance life was a bit longer.

If I ever hit the lottery this is where I'd like to go with a pistol just for my personal collection. I'd never have any intent of selling the thing after it was made. It is just one of those things that peeks my curiosity and I find fasinating, the whole reason I own firearms in the most part anyhow. If figure this would be one heck of an expensive undertaking with the potential for a few mishaps and a few "do overs" in the process of making something like this.

What are the opinions of "new fangled" rounds like this? It's not long range rifle shooting but it's a new development that is sure interesting. Without going to a bolt action hunting type handgun I find that flat shooting trajectorys are what pistols have always lacked, till now.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 20:56:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.215.165)


A quick question regarding rebarreling.

I acquired a .308 caliber SAR-8 rifle, the stainless steel receiver style, and I am looking to rebarrel it. Here are the problems that I am faced with :

1) I am trying, now to the point of desperation, to locate SOMEBODY
qualified to produce a 22 inch, 1-11 twist, single-cut rifled, stainless steel barrel to actually FIT the SAR-8. I found numerous sources of barrels for bolt-actions, M1/14's and AR's but nothing about H&K type rifles.

2) Install and braze a THREADED muzzle break of my choice which I will provide.

3) I trying to locate somebody with the experience and qualifications to install the barrel and headspace the rifle.

Feel free to contact me directly at the email address of ares@ezo.net

Help ?
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 20:59:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.210.205.207)


Donald Banks...

Pass this puppy, but quick!! It's a dog-a-roo

Their line "...We true the action face, drill, tap, install and bed
Weaver® scope bases,..." mean that these are old surplus WW2 (or earlier) actions.

I'm a M98 lover, and have several.
There are the very good to outstanding commercial actions like the FN, Brevex, Huskvarna... there are some good current actions made in Yugoslavia... but these come already drilled and tapped. The ones these guys are selling are very old military actions, that are the bottom of the barrel. All the good military M-98 actions dried up about 20 years ago... A GOOD WW2 military mauser actions, like the VZ-24 go for more than $800 stripped, and in the white, and then you have to build the gun around them.

For the $650, get a Winchester, or Remington, or even a Sa... Sav... Savag.. Aw, you know the one :))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 21:06:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.90)


Always remember a sniper is only limited by his imagination. I remember a company came to our platoon and tested what they called a thellie suit. It was a rediculous looking suit with a plastic face shield. Uhhh, OK. Our hand made suits worked much better anyway. The German snipers have used something I always found impressive. Half of an umbrella. They pushed it in front of them while they stalked. Camo and movement discipline must be at its utmost of course. But a sniper is always under observation. A company recently went to Quantico and tried a theory that today's technology will defeat man anyday. It just so happens they were using IR. Gunny Owens told them they were full of crap and took off in the stalk site with what. An umbrella. They never saw him again until he popped up right in front of them.

Then again on a stalk site you know where your observer is, but in real life you don't.
 

Sean <macdelta1@webtv.net>
Houston, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 21:51:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.200.146)


Sean' the Gunny must be an old Antelope hunter, we've been using that
half umbrella to hunt prong horns out in the west here for a long time. See Cabella's catalog for several different prints. Good points. Don't think it would work on the Imaging stuff maybe/.. think the imager would see through it quite easily. For visual approaches though it works quite well especially with animals that don't know what a umbrella looks like compared to a man.
By the way if you think you can stalk.... get near a herd of Antelope and give it your best shot! The Comanche learned to stalk a Prairie Dog and grab him bare handed. I knew a white man who could do it.
I never saw anyone get close enough to an Grazing Antelope herd to get off a decent bow shot without a lot of luck. Water hole hunters do O.k. if they don't move and the breeding season is close. But stalk a herd and see what happen.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 23:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Don Banks, Re: Mausers
I would not spend $650 for one of those guns. I have one just like it stock and all with Douglas Airguage barrel in 30:06 and it cost me a lot less than that.
Good mauser actions are not that hard to find here in Ohio. Going to local gun shows I have found mint condition VZ-24's and Yugo M48 complete rifles for less than $150 The going rate for a drill & tap job and professional bolt alteration runs an additional $85.00. Add an old Unertl Hawk or a Weaver K-4 with the finger knob adjustments and you have a gun as good as anything the Germans used in WW2. I don't think you would have any problem engaging targets up to 600 meters with one of these Pseudo-snipers with a little practice.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 23:31:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.220)
I'M A SNIPER IN THE ARMY. I'M GETTING OUT IN ABOUT A YEAR AND I'M HAVING TROUBLE FINDING A JOB THAT MATCHES MY SKILLS AS A SNIPER AND INFANTRYMAN. I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD HELP ME. WHEN I GET OUT I'LL HAVE JUST SHY OF SIX YEARS IN THE ARMY. IT SEEMS WHEN YOU SERVE YOUR COUNTRY AND TRY TO GET OUT THE REST OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR SKILLS NOR DO THEY HAVE A NEED FOR YOU. IT KILLS ME TO THINK THAT ALMOST SIX YEARS OF MY LIFE WILL BE WASTED AS FAR AS THE CIVILIAN POPULATION IS CONSERNED. IF YOU COULD HELP ME AT ALL I WOULD REALLY BE GRATEFUL, I DON'T HAVE ANY COLLAGE BUT I AM A SEARGENT AND AM IN A LEADERSHIP ROLE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!
SGT KENNETH SHRIVER <M24SNIPER01@AOL.COM>
FT. BENNING, GA, USA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 23:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.56)
Dennis,

Hey, glad it worked out for you. I know the sick feeling the first time I saw that "Rust". Sweets has always worked for me. PS, dont leave it in the bore. Dry out the Sweets and run an oiled patch through the bore. Just be sure to dry out the oil before shooting.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:06:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.161)


A friend has had very good results with Federal 69 grain match (GM223M) in his Savage tactical. He's claiming .5 inch 10-shot groups. Maybe I should invest! Anyway, he's about to the end of his issue and would like to duplicate the load rather than pay big bucks out of his own pocket. The question is, what are they using for powder? If it is proprietary, is there a proven equivilent? Any help would be appreciated.

A question for Rick at Bragg. We have recently been issued the PVS-10 and are trying to work the bugs out. It seems to hold it's zero and doesn't have too much of a change between day and night operation (left 1.5 min on mine). What's driving us crazy is the narrow field of focus on the ocular lense. It seems that if the shooter is not perfectly aligned behind the glass the image is terribly distorted. And what's with the yellow tint? Have we failed to adjust the unit properly? Is there a fix for the problems? I haven't had the opportunity to speak to anyone that has had a lot of time behind the unit. Was hoping you might have some advise. Thanks.
SSG Maries/2-162 INF/ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
Oregon, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:28:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.163.142.12)


Lito - You missed my point. I'm not saying that you will be seen, I'm saying that that possiblity is there and you have to ba aware of it. Many guys get into that wookie suit and think I'm the Predator and I'm invisible. Not so, and if you ahve that mind set you WILL be seen. At that point you are dead meat. Snipers can not become decisively engaged or they will not live to fight another day. Hub to hub artillary is also a bad thing for snipers that have been seen. Understand my focus is on the military side of the house and I fully realize that the LEA sniper is not going to run up against the problems we have in the field. The same is also true that we will probably not run up against the problems they have with law suits and morons that will second guess every sneeze. But one thing is true, forget that you are visible and you will hae a bad day. Whether you hide in plain sitght or you are hiding in an FFP in your best ghillie suit, you must remember that if you can see the enemy then he can see you. You must make sure that what his brain registers is NOT a sniper but a bush, a bag lady, or a pile of dog do is that is your camo signature. That is why over loading the IR system probably won't work because by the time you realize they have you is when the bullet impacts on the brain bucket. Through the pelt before that and you have told him where you are and that you are actively hiding from him. That pellet will not shut down the system only creat a dark spot or whit spot depending on whether he is using white or black hot as the setting. Unless you keep the pellet between you and the observer he will know where to look and see you for sure.

Next point, we are pointedly not answering "what can we do about IR" becasue this is an open forum that does not need to contribute to some butt lick using a technique learned here to screw with Mike or his buddies.

Have fun guys and hold hard.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:34:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.212)


SSG Maries - Your post hit after I had started mine. On your question on the PVS-10, the tint is in the tube and there is nothing that I know of to do about it. The tight focus is also within the scope and partly caused by the splitting of the light to day and night sides of the scope. The scope is junk and should not have been bought but we are stuck with them. My advice is to keep the M3A on the weapon as long as possible and use the PVS-10 only as a night scope when you have not other choice. Removing the PVS-10 will usually destroy your zero but you can bore sight with a chem light and stay close enough for normal night engagement, ie head shots to about 200 meters, body to about 400. I wish I had a magic answer but we are not even using them in spec ops, we are staying with the SIMRADs and NADs as clip on night vision.

Good luck with the PVS-10s and let the chain of command know it is garbage. It is the only way you can fight back against this type of BS in the procurment system.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:44:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.212)


Rick; I think Lito got the blame for some of my ramblings about overloading the IR. The situation scenerio would have to be the case of a lone Sniper Hauling ass while the pellet burned. Or Overloading the Goggles on ground troups advancing on your position under cover of darkness. Presumably the range would be close in that last condition. Artillery zeroing in on your known position was not in my
scenerio, Shit happens, I know you have to deal with it. Was not lobbying to lob flares to protect your location when you hadn't been
detected. Back in the good old days when I first met IR it was fairly
simple. You just needed to look for the enemies IR illumination to locate their IR Snipers or at least their search IR lights...at night but that's a bit out of date.
I am not familiar with real modern IR stuff so don't know how good the ALC is on it or the recovery time. Some of the Russian stuff I've tried would go totally blind if the Sniper had a mag light but I know U.S. stuff is better today....I think your right.... we don't want to delve too deeply into counter IR measures.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:56:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Rick: Excellent Point to soon forgotten - Fortunately most of my contributions are usless.

Greg: Stop Lurking - are you going to go shooting w/ Rob and I on Sunday?
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 04:05:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.138.107)


I know this isn't quite in line with the current conversation but I thought maby someone would like to talk about something related to tactical sniper operations instead of continuing with the "Politics Country" stuff. I thought I'd lost my bookmarks for a minute. Geeezzz guy's WTF???
.22 RIMFIRE SUPPRESSED WEAPONS?
Is this a viable addition to the snipers kit? I was just at Gemtech's site looking at the Vortex II. Looks like you could get into one of these for $750-$800 including the transfer tax. Talked with a class III the other day and it isn't as hard to do as alot of folks think.
Anyone in the know care to jump in here and explain the process for us?
I'm thinking the best way to go would be a screw on can. You can use it on a Ruger MKII pistol ,10/22,Marlin Papoose breakdown,or a .22 bolt rifle. Alot of versatility there. Sure would be nice to be able to practice trigger control etc. in the back yard or in the basement for that matter (keeping safety up front all the time of course) and not piss of the neighbors or mamma.
Also great for gathering food on long ops. Not to mention local varmint cong control.
Anyone have practical experience to share? What types are the best/worse etc.
Please... Lets get the discussion back on the right track.
Don
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 04:18:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.93)
Any experiences/thoughts on the Smith Enterprise Muzzle Brake for an M1A?
Recoil is not an issue, it's this f#*@%ing Socialist state and DOJ possibly causing me to retire my "beast".
Thanks in advance.
Semper-Fi!
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, californicateya, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 06:02:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.223.66)
Don,

I've never had any experience with U.S. made suppressors, but I have used a few different types down here in New Zealand as there are no restrictions on the ownership or use in this country.

You buy them over the counter the same as a 'scope or sling.

The most common types used on .22s are the Parker Hale screw on type and a locally produced PVC pipe model sold as the "Silent Kill".

The Parker Hale retails for about NZ$90 (approx US$45)and is very quiet when used with sub-sonic ammo.
It requires the muzzle to be threaded.

The Silent Kill is a slip on type that is a little bulkier than the P.H. but no alteration is required to the muzzle and it only adds 2 inches the the length of the barrel.
Retails for about NZ$60 (US$30).

A small company by the name of Percy Engineering makes suppressors for all calibres up to .308 and they are very good as well.
The one fitted to my .300 Whisper is superb!
(NZ$200-300)
He also does full-length ported barrel models for 10/22, Camp Carbine etc.

I have also read good reports on ones made by Robbie Tiffin of Gunworks in Christchurch.

I don't know how you would go about importing them into the USA but it might be a lot cheaper and just as good as a US made one.

Suppressors are very common on .22s in this country for rabbits and possums, especially on 10 acre "lifestyle" blocks.

One target club in Auckland mandates their use on their range in the local community hall.

Some speciallist Police and Army units use MP5SDs but I don't know about any tactical use of suppressed .22s.

I will dig out the contact numbers of the makers mentioned and post them for all, but if anyone has any questions feel free to contact me.

Sniff, in the Land of the Long White Cloud.
 

Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 07:42:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.96.49.14)


Bad Karma: I'm currently using H4350 in my .300 Win Sendero. Getting great results. Currently up to 74 gr. of H4350 with a 168 gr. Sierra Match King BTHP. No signs of excessive pressure, and holding .75 MOA or better. Also using Winchester brass, and CCI 250 large rifle magnum primers. Unfortunately, don't have access to chronograph so I don't know exact muzzle velocity. I'm running the COL at 3.340", the max length in my reloading manual. Also have reloaded some using the 180 gr. Sierra GameKing with 70 gr. of H4350 for elk hunting, and was holding 1.0" MOA with that load. Hope that helps.

RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 09:55:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.234.20.198)


Don Banks

Re: Hesse Arms
I'm fairly new to FALs, but the FAL Files is an excellent site with a great forum for learning all things FAL. Most on the forum are not big fans of Hesse. I have a personal Hesse customer service bitch, but I'll not get into details. In short, I paid a 13% restocking fee because they sent me garbage parts. Most FAL shooters do not think very highly of Hesse. If you are willing to go to the $1000+ range, email me, and I'll get you in touch with some good FAL builders. They're regulars at FAL Files. Mark @ Arizona Response Systems, Rich @ Century Gun Work (NOT CAI), Mike @ MSC, etc. Also, DSA builds brandy new FALs, but they have a waiting list.

Byron
Byron <bef122@psu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 13:12:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.118.19.11)


Don,
The process for obtaining a suppressor is actually kind of easy. You must first live in a state that allows private ownership of suppressors. Your class 3 dealer will help you fill out a form4 which you will supply 2 passport photos, fingerprints,and Chief L.E. signature for your area. All of this along with the coveted payment of $200 to the BATF is mailed off and in about 90 days you will get back your tax stamp for the suppressor. This is a one time fee per weapon. It is impossible for anyone other than dealers or L.E. agencies to own imported suppressors because they are classified as dealer only samples. I have been in the can making business for well over 10 years and would be glad to help anyone out with questions they may have.
Jim
Jim Ryan <ryn1523@aol.com>
Meridian, Idaho, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 16:19:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.79)
Sgt Shriver. Hate to be the one to bear the bad news, but if you want to be able to make use of the B4 skills you learned in the Army... stay in the Army. The mercenary buisness is non-existent (not to mention illegal in the US) and us former NCO's are a dime a dozen with the down sizing going on. Investigate the National Guard and USMC reserves (USMC will want you to go through boot camp again). National Guard has Special Forces units (19th and 20th groups).

About the only application you will find is to be a cop and try to get on a SWAT team in a few years. I have never heard of a department that will take you "as is" and put you to work as a sniper. You'll have to get years of experience as a cop first.

Advice? Stay in, change MOS's to something you can use on the outside, get a degree while on active duty, THEN get out.

This is from a guy who spent 21 years in the military, USMC and Army sniper, CQB trained and all of that shit. Stay in.

SSG Maries, I think you can thank the Benning crew for the POS-10 (Piece of Shit-10). Am I right Rick?

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 17:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.160)


Don Banks: Hesse Arms: what Byron says. I can personally attest for Mark at Arizona Response Systems. Great guy, top notch FAL & Glock smith.

Rick: SORRY for the request for info on defeating IR. DOH! Just wasn't thinking about "the audience". After talking "personally" with so many of the guys here, I forget there are those that aren't "good guys". Sometimes my curiousity over-rides my common sense. But does it have anything to do with releasing 1000 fireflies from a 2L bottle all at once when you've been spotted? ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 18:00:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


A couple of years ago, when I was an active participant on this board, I got into a knock-down-drag-out :-) with Pablito over the issue of putting any sort of foreign matter on cases, then firing the rounds with the matter in place. My recollection is that the topic started with paint (someone wanted to disguise their brass when it flung into the air from their auto-loader). Then as it progressed it shifted to all sorts of other substances. Some of the argument was off-line, I don't remember how much. The argument isn't important and I don't wish to drag it up, specifically.

Pablito raised a point at the time that I agreed with:

I was arguing that it was a bit foolhardy to just willy-nilly start experimenting with putting different substances on rounds, as the effect MAY be unpredictable and even dangerous to someone who doesn't know what he is doing. Pablito raised the point (as I recall) that while it may be true with some substances, that the ones he recommended were safe and that the audience at SC was experienced enough in reloading, etc. that they would not do something too foolish anyway (or words to that effect. Sorry Paul, I don't remember the exact quote, but I think it's fair to say that my misquote abides by the spirit, if not the words.)

Anyway, we ended the argument agreeing on that basic point. 'Nuff said.

These days I do not actively participate on this site, but I do get the chance to read it occasionally. While I still generally agree with Pablito's point about the relatively high reloading experience found on this site, certainly with him and some others, I am still DUMBFOUNDED to notice the all-too-often pleas for a "pet load," or postings of the same.

If you need to ASK for a good starting load for a given standard round and a common powder, like a .308 Win, 300 mag, 7mm, or whatever, then you shouldn't BE reloading. Put the tools down and back away from the bench.

1). This information is commonly published in about 25+ easily available reloading manuals. What? You don't USE reloading manuals? Then you shouldn't be reloading, no matter how experienced you think you are, someday something will bite you, maybe through no fault of your own. You might seriously hurt yourself or another simply because Joe Shmoe told you that he likes 50 compressed grains of Varget in his .308 and you didn't bother to look it up. Use the books, they keep getting reprinted for a reason.

2). Every rifle is different. Every individual rifle of a given model is different. Every individual rifle will shoot differently in different situations. If by "pet load" you are interested in accuracy (and why wouldn't you be?), then you will need to find your OWN accuracy load anyway. Maybe you'll find Pete's 44.0 grains of Varget to work best in your situation, maybe you won't, but just because it works best in Pete's smokepole, doesn't mean it will do anything special in yours.

3). "But I was only asking for advice so that I can test it in my rifle!" That may be true, but only a real stroke just takes a "pet load" from another person, and fires it off in their rifle without doing both of the following: a). Verifying it to be reasonable in a book or two, b). reducing it by 10% first, then working up to intended charge. Once you have verified a reduced load and started working up to find your individual sweet-spot, then it is 100% YOUR responsibility to know what is safe in your INDIVIDUAL rifle.

4). For the same reason, It does little good to post that 47.6gr of powder XXXX shoots sweet in your rifle, as it may not in another and any safe reloader will try it first at about 43gr anyway.

5). "But I already shoot 47gr of powder XXXX in my rifle, so why should I reduce to 43gr just to make sure that 47.6 is safe?" Well if you already shoot 47 grains in your rifle and know it is safe, then you probably don't have to reduce to know whether 47.6gr might be safe. But this raises another question: How did you arrive at 47gr? Did you find that charge in a book, on advice, or from testing? If you got it from a book or from advice, then you probably haven't done load development so you have no idea if 47gr is an optimum load in your rifle. And if you have no idea whether 47gr is optimum, why would you think that 47.6gr is optimum? Just because someone says so? On the other hand, if you settled on 47gr because your load testing showed it to be an optimum charge in your rifle, then 47.6gr is irrelevant for you anyway.

In the end, EVERY reloader needs to stop taking powder charge advice from others, safe or otherwise, and learn how to develop a proper load for himself, BASED ON, but not literally, load advice found in books or trusted friends. Only a fool blindly shoots any load handed to him. Only a bigger fool thinks that just because 44.0gr of Varget shoots well in xxx's rod, it will be optimum for his. 90% of the fun in reloading, is developing a good load. If all you want is someone else's work, then you deserve what you get.

Maybe a good thread to start here is the proper way to develop an accuracy load for your rifle. This hasn't been done in a while (and I promise I'll stay out of it this time).

Enough said, sorry for all the toes I am no doubt stepping on, but anyone who actually needs ask how much H4831 to use in a .30-06, probably needs the advice.

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 18:57:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.215.216.198)


interested in buying a sako TRG. Where are these sold in the US?

Thanks.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 19:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)


Don, what are you smoking in those supressors? Send me some of that good stuff, I haven't heard any politics in so long here I'm beginning to miss it.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 21:17:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Andre, we agree on something. LOL. Dont get mad just having fun. Glad to see you back. I also dont use or give my data to someone to use. What is good in my rifle may be to hot in yours. I start with a medium load and build up, watching the chronograph and checking groups all the way. I look for a consistent load in speed, not the fastest. I just want the most consistent and with as much speed as I can safely get under all Temp. conditions. I dont play the winter and summer load things.

Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 21:59:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.202)


Rick...

I don't disagree with you... it was maybe the wording, that if you see them, they see you.
I believe that if you see them... and you do your job well... they won't see you.

But you can't try to overwhelm them with technogology... the more active you are, the more vulnerable you are.

I am NOT an advocate of overloading IR with flairs... if you try that, YOU WILL DIE!

Buy the way... I'm sending you some day-IR photos that will get your attention :))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 22:35:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.24)


Can any one tell me about this rifle cartridge.The .30 Raptor it is
made from a 404 Jeffrey cartridge.Is this some kind of hotrod wildcat?
the thing will eat 87.6 grains of RL22 put a 165 GR Ballistic tip bullet and you get 3,475 FPS out of a 27" barrel.Also I'm about to get
a Lod rifle stock is it better to glass bed it than pillar bed it?I've
been to Hot Tips and Cold Shots on this GREAT web sight and read all
that I can find about pillar bedding it seems to be more robust than
glassing in the action.I also just got Mike Lau's The Military and Police Sniper this is a great book! but then so is MAJ Plaster's
book also :))
Shoot far but shoot safe!!!!!
Scott Hannah

Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, Commiefornia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:43:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.101)


OK Andre,
I have to take you up on this. I have been one of those who asked for loads. In my case, I wanted to get an idea of what .308 loads would stay supersonic past 1000 yards out of a 24" barrel. Uncharted territory for me at that point. Now, I have been competing in one or another shooting discipline for twenty years, have reloaded for fifteen, and hold a master classification card in High Power. I agree that you are a moron if you just take a load some one gives you and just try it. But, you are just as stupid for NOT asking advice from those individuals with more experience than you have. Or maybe just have more experience with that particular powder.

Many of those individuals that I have specifically asked about load data were leery to disclose or discuss any specifics until many e-mails have been sent and they have become somewhat comfortable with the knowledge, experience and load developement techniques of the person asking for advice. In this litigous society that we now live in, it only makes sense to get to know the experience level and counsel accordingly.

NOW, how do I work up loads?
1) Decide which bullets I want to try to shoot.
2) Decide which powder(s) have a burning rate suitable for the round, the bullet weight, and the specifics of the rifle in question. (barrel length, bolt vs auto loader, etc.)
3) Choose the primer(s) that you will try.
4) Determin O.A.L. for the rifle if I am not restricted to magazine length.
5) Prep the cases - trim to min, flash holes, primer pockets, etc..
6) Determine the starting loads (usually book max minus 10%-12%), and what will initially be considered as maximum. This will be below the books listed Max.
7) Load 5 rounds per load (this is done for all combinations of bullets, powders, and primers chosen), increasing the load by half grain until initial max is reached.
8) Shoot these loads over a crono for group at 100 yards.
9) Check for pressure signs. If the pressure sign (or lack of it) indicates that you may do so safely, consider going past the hottest loading. This is done only if the groups are getting smaller as the charge is increasing. Go forward very carefully in .2 grain increments.
9a) If so indicated, test the "hotter" loads at 100 yards as above.
10) Pick the ones with that have both good groups AND consistent velocities, and load fifty of each load.
11) Shoot these loads as 10 shot groups at 300 yards (over a cronograph), never firing the same load (as 10 shot groups) consecutively. The groups are spread out so that the conditions equal out.
12) Average the size of each loadings five 10 shot groups, as well as the average velocity, extreme spread and standard deviation for each loads fifty shot set.
13) Decide which load is best.
14) At this point, I shou;ld have decided on the load that I will probably shoot for the life of that barel.
15) If not, I go out and but some Federal Gold Medal, or Black Hills.
16) If still no good, then I sell the BI*CH!

Flame On Gentlemen (and I use that term loosely) ;)

steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
south werst, pennsylvnia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:49:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.159)


Gentlemen

Are any of you familiar with the custom Remington 700’s that Texas Guns of San Antonio, TX turns out?

One of my customers received one in a trade and I did the paperwork for the transfer. I was expecting a standard Remington 700 VS LH .223. This little beauty started out that way; but what a change. Upon opening the box, I found a 700 VS LH with a 20” fluted bbl., deep target crown, and beautifully blued. The action was slick and the trigger broke at around 2 ½ lbs. I fell in love with the bloody thing and wanted to keep it! Immediately called the dealer who shipped it and found out who made it. Called them and found out that they do them in several different calibers. They are all cut down to 20” except the .300 Win. Mag., which they cut to 22”. They claim that most will shoot ½ minute @ 100 yds. all day long. I definitely “NEED” one of these. Please tell me that these are great rifles!!!!!!

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:22:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.73.76)


Have any of you seen the Usmc sniper scopes on ebay lately? there has been three or for on there this week. it seemed a little odd to me since they are so rare.

Winchester
winchester <primetimein69@yahoo.com>
Savoy, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:23:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.253.56.166)


Lito - I think we ar both on the same sheet of music just on seperate stanzas and this is causing an interrupted brain fart on my part. The only thing I wanted to drive home was that to see the enemy, you must also be exposed in part. That in itself is a problem unless care is taken. You are right on the fire pellets, Bill had posted that it was he that had made the point of overwhelming the IR as a getaway technique and I got on a roll with the "thou salt do no harm" theme that I rolled it into one statement, sorry. Somewhat brain dead as I just graduated my students today after 6 weeks of introducing them to the joys of sniperdom.

Shriver - Spent three years selling my talents to the highest bidder. Usually Saudi Arabia but had other takers, I'm such a whore. Gooch is right on the market of selling your talents. I have over 23 years of Spec Ops, and had worked with the Dept. of State folk, Secret Service folk, DIA, CIA, and a few other of the campbells soap folk. the only reason I could do it for three years was I had a steady retired pay check and my wife works. You also must have contacts with the above folk to get permission to do certain areas and deeds or they will revoke your rights as a citizen, yep you will become a stateless person and they do not kid around. I am now the proud double dipper that all congressmen fear and hate. It was just easier to keep doing this with the government. I accepted the fact that I will never be any richer than I am good looking. This is of course self explanitory to the guys who have seen my ugly face in person.

Marius - Gooch is right, believe the POS 10 comes from a collaboration of Aberdeen and Benning in the school of wouldn't it be cool if. Thus comes the answer to an unasked question.

Bravo - No problem it is easy to forget who all may come on board. I am just as guilty of yabbering away without thought of who else reads this forum. Scott used to keep me well in hand with gentle remeinders. Now I have to exercise self (shudder) discipline. I have even had some of my highers ask about my ramblings on this site before.

Kevin - Your points are never useless. You have made many a fine point during these threads.

Let me go to bed, students gone and tomorrow we shoot for ourselves!!! Joy! I tell the students that this is the second best job in the army! The first best job is this job without the students taking up our range time! ;-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 01:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.209)


Gooch,

Don't blame the Benning guys for the PVS 10. They kept turning in reports that said the thing was trash. From day one they wanted it to go away. After a year and a half of bitching they were told that it was too late since the Army had bought around 5000 of them and it had a NSN.
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 02:07:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.81.112.36)


Just picked up an interesting piece that is supposed to have military history behind it.
A Remington 788 with an heavy full profile bull barrel in .308
the receiver was modified in the following way, the original floor plate was changed to a different style that allows the use of a modified M14 mag for feed purposes. The bottom of the receiver was milled to accept the larger magazine. The lock mechanism for the magazine is a spring loaded hook that comes down the side of the magazine on the left side as it would be mounted on the gun and it catches on a tit that is brazed to the magazine sidewall. The magazine hook is mounted on a fixture that is inlet into the side of the stock at the bottom and is attached to the trigger guard. The other magazine modification is the rear mag catch block was removed.
The receiver has a Redfield one piece base permanently attached to it on top.
picked it up after responding out of curiosity to a classified ad on an ad board followed up by a telephone call for more info.

all the store could give me was that it was supposed to have been made up for the military for shooting Nato matches. All the work was supposed to have been done by military armories. They had had it for several years to eventually put back together as a project gun as it was sort of in pieces when they bought it but never got around to it and it just collected dust. Looks like the original 788 stock was seriously modified and expertly glass bedded by some one who knew their stuff.
Have heard of lots of conversions but have never seen or heard of military conversions of 788s before.
finally got it back together after some serious cleaning and it shoots really great.
if anyone has info, would be greatly appreciated.
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.153.185.105)


Thinkin that if you set off the flare and call for an air strike on it you might slip away. Folly perhaps?
If the coyotes had these little phospher pills they'd be a lot more of them that get away, I can't see crap for 50 yards around them. Don't know about Gen III modern stuff but thermal imaging, I believe it would bust you from just what I've seen. I do notice that a target within 50 yards of the pill is quite visable to a Leupold MIl dot.
Be my luck they'd carpet bomb the whole grid where the pill went off.
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:33:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Andre'...

Howdy Dude!... I owe you an appology. I thought that one should be able to discuss loading tecniques on this site, that went past the page 2 beginers warnings in the loading manuals... but I was wrong.
Every time I brought up something past the basics, I got tons of flack about all the stuff you "can't" do 'cuz your gun will blow up...
So I stopped talkin about those things... I went down in de-feet, from the "chicken littles" on this site... however, you wanna load some .308 "H.E.A.T.... drop me an e-mail ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 08:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)


Andre with the ',
 

A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already
peteR <PNGREIFF@aol.com>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:39:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.24)


Thomas - When Gooch and I hammer Benning it is the weiners in that big building that usually do not have a job so they invent stuff to justify their jobs. That is why the motto went from "Follow Me!" to "Quit Shoving!!!!!!" We have much the same problem on Bragg with the Spec Ops command doing stuff and then saying "make it work". Our answer is usually "Why, we don't want it". Then the "Done Deal" coin is thrown. I know that there are a high percentage of actual workers that are dedicated and want only the best for the troops at both locations. Unfortunately there are those that would screw up boiling water there as well. We have our own version of the PVS-10 that we are presently fighting. Thus the Benning Bragg mirror effect! :-)

Bill - That would be my luck as well. There is always way to much fire power on the wrong end of where ever I try to do my thing!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:47:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.194)


Duuuh, lets try this again.

Andre with the ',
 

A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already "sniping" with the best of them. A GREAT START friend!
 

Ofta handloading immolation Nirvanaland with Lito, UnDude, Bill R, Pat Murphy, Scott, Tony Y, Bravo, danr, Boltster, and the rest of the helpful ones.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:49:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.24)


Pablito,

I stand by what I said, but I'll clarify my intent: THis site SHOULD be a good source of info on the TECHNIQUES of handloading, including such topics as Load Develpment, Case Prep, Tools of the Trade, Bullet Selection, etc. Even basic how-to would be great for the less experienced crowd, or those who want to start (which I would recommend to all of you on this site who don't already reload you own).

This idea has nothing to do with fear of litigation or that Pete's pet load of 200gr of Varget, smashed in an hydrolic press, then shoved into a .308 case, along with a cherry bomb, will harm anybody. My position is based 100% on the idea that a reloader, any reloader, takes the responsibility upon himself for all that he doesand also must work up his own rifle's accuracy load. There are plenty of readily available tables for the handloader to get load data, or confirm load data received from others. If someone tells me to load up 49gr of some powder I've never used before, then I'd be a moron if I didn't a). consider the source carefully, b). try to confirm the reasonableness of the load somewhere "official."

Beyond the personal safety issue is the basic one that YOUR load will probably NOT be my load (for optimum accuracy). If one is faced with the task of reducing a stated charge and working up an accuracy load anyway, then what do you need advice from someone you don't even know for?

Hey, I'm all for a discussion of various techniques (sadly lacking sometimes here in favor of unsavory animal "husbandry"), but anyone who actually needs to ask what a good .30-06 load might be, then is also willing to fire off that load without ever confirming that it's reasonable in their rifle, deserves what he gets. This information is NOT top secret. You can go into any gun store and find oodles of load data for all of you favorite powders. I'm not trying to stifle anything, just to say that load data (re: powder charge) is an individual thing that will be modified anyway, so what's the point in even asking?

Steve:

While I don't think most people here would do it, I think there are plenty of people who would just take a load I spout off and fire it off without checking. I've seen it many times. I'm glad you would not. I saw a guy at a range last year blow primer after primer in a rifle firing way too hot, who was dumbfounded because his buddy shoots this load all the time in his rifle without ill effect. People do this. Lots of smart people own guns, but lots of morons do also. Explaining to someone how to do proper case prep is a lot more helpful to newbie and expert alike, than the harm that can come because some stroke won't read a charge table.

Thanks for you best wishes Mike. I still haven't tried one of those mercury reducers, but I've been eyeing my rifle but lately, so who knows. I may have to get a sling order off to you one of these days.

Howdy Pete. Or was it two cherry bombs?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 11:58:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.215.216.198)


Hi All,
Just thought I would throw out a note of intrest to all my knowedgable colleagues. Since I don't know anything about this hi-tec night vision stuff I haven't been comenting much lately but it is intersting to read about. Anyway, as some of you know I have been tying to wring out my new 6.5x284 and ran into and interesting problem. Andre's post brought it's importance to me that I should share them with you. I have had the gun now for about 6 weeks and started off shooting Winchester 284 brass in the rifle while I waited for the "NEW" Norma brass to show up. With the Winchester brass I was able to reach my target speed or 3000+ fps with the 140s and 142s and finally with firefromed cases I was shooting in the .3 to .5 range but I was a little on the "Hot" side and decided to wait for the Norma brass before fine tuning the load. When the Norma brass arrived I first checked the cap. and found it to be about 2.5grs light in case cap. compared to the Winchester so I backed off my loads this much and started over. Now it gets interesting, I started blowing primers and had high pressure signs with nearly every load I tried. I could not get close to the velocity I had before and the accuracy sucked, and this is with the best brass there is!!!
To make a long story short what I found out was is my chamber is a tight minimum SAMI spec in everyway. The Norma brass, even though it fits, is to "Tight" for my chamber. I don't understand the physics of it but I do know what the end result is, it causes a lot of "PRESSURE" and we all know this is dangerous. My shooting partner got his new 6.5x284 chambered by Pac Nor with a "Short" chamber and finished by the smith who built mine and we thought they would be the same but there not, a fired case from his will not fit my chamber and a load that shoots fine in his with no signs of pressure blew a primer in mine!!
I guess we all know that even though the book says it's "OK" as my loads were, infact under by a couple of grains, there are other things that come into play that we need to consider when changing components so we don't find the bolt sticking out the back of our head!!! Since I had a bunch of Norma brass and my partner had a bunch of Winchester brass I tried talking him into trading brass and I'll be damned if he didn't talk me into trading rifles!!! Figure that one out!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 12:53:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
I have been on this earth for 34 years, and in every one of them, I have believed that any successful 'crisis' organization is built by men (and women) who's driving force is a quality best described in the terms

"my greatest fear is failing my team-mates"

Last night, I was witness to a "brother in need" scenario and found nearly half my team-mates paralyzed by an overwhelming need to cover their own "arse" . This was not a particularly apocalyptic crisis, and the half that didn't have a philosophical crisis saved the day...

I am left wondering... how is it that failing your team (buying sub-standard gear, presidents that lie, standing by while a mate dies because your too scared to act).... how has this become even remotely acceptable? When did personal accountability cease to be a norm?
 

Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 12:54:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


TB,
Benning suffers from the same malady that Quantico gets from time to time (the M14 DM rifle is an example). Its called "We get paid more than you so we know more than you". Last thing I heard a year or so ago was that everyone at the Sniper School wanted the Simrad. I had also heard that ITT or Litton or whoever was building the POS-10 had such a powerful political punch that the POS-10 was a shoe in. I wonder how many retired "Building 4 types" are going to work with the manufacturers in a few years? Additionally I think the Simrad is actually built overseas.

I think its time for the DOD to force the sevices to adopt the same sniper rifle systems. WIth the USMC building their M40's with Unertl and the Simrad, the Army with the M24 w/Leupold/POS-10 and the Navy with thier Macmillans (or whatever they have this week) its getting pretty hairy.

Out
 

gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:15:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.158)


Jim...
It started in the mid 60's, and really got a burst of suport in '92.
The current attitude is you don't have to help your teamies... you just have to "feel their pain", and have an assessment meeting afterwards, so you all "Feel better about it"... and it's all OK!

Andre'...
I still don't think this is a site for beginners handloading... there is so much "how to trim your cases", "how to work up a load", and "how to set-up your first set of dies" information around, that it would bog this site to a stop, if we went there.

There has to be some expected level of function on a site like this, or all the discourse will go to ground.

If we discuss "Go bags" and Alice kits, we can't start out with "How to pick out a canteen at your local Wal-Marts"... it has to ba assumed that people that are attracted to this site, have achieved a mid or higher level of functioning in shooting, and outdoor skills, and if we keep going back to entry level on every topic, the very people that you want the answers from, will leave and go elsewhere.
This was discussed about about 8 weeks ago... started by a timely thread started be UnDude, which made the same point.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.72)


We agree Pablito. I would venture that most people here are not beginners. Nor do I advocate SC dropping its entire focus in order to create a beginning handloading forum. It should stick to appropriate topics (sniper warefare, long range accuracy, etc.).

However, beginners DO exist on this site (evidenced by questions like "What's a good load for a .308 round for my new rifle?"). My feeling is simply that the first lesson that a beginner should learn is that everybody's loads are their own (for accuracy, not proprietary, reasons) and that the info that they seek is found in numerous books.

If someone wants to ask a question about case trimming, or something, that's their business, but they shouldn't be asking about THAT, if they can't even find a good load for a common round on their own. Does that make sense?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:59:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.215.216.198)


Andre'...
What???... No, don't answer, I'm afraid it'll just get more complicated.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
in a total atete of confusion..., USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:24:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.72)
Andre w/',

I thought that 44.0 grains of VARGET was a mid range load according to Hodgdons? Has that changed?

Exceptional accuracy and the ability to work at any temp range was what I, and a number of "trade" individuals who wish to remain out of the limelite, derived through a bit of scientific testing.

As far as I know, you were the first to post a totally unacceptable and despicably unsafe load 50.0 grains of VARGET in a .308 (EVEN IF IN JEST DUDE......) THATS SCARY in todays read only halfway society.

If it was not for T&E and publishing, both data here and elsewhere, we would all still be using the somewhat sterile "target" loads used for three or four decades in bullseye competition.

Time to "evolve" and get back to using hmmmmmm 43.5 grains of Varget and firing five shots to test a load ..........

;-)

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:47:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.161)


Hey guys - I am preparing to paint my rifle and was wondering if anyone has a good idea about painting scopes. I'm not sure about painting over my adjustment knobs. I have a Tasco SS10x42, they are large knobs and do not have a cover like the Leupold tactical. So they have to be camoed in some way. Any input appreciated.

Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:53:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.207.47)


Jim,
Unfortunate but true. Now the big thing is, "Its not my FAULT". No one seems to have the balls to stand up and say, Hey S^#*t happens, I screwed up and "I" accept the responsibility for it!! Thats how I was raised, if you make a mistake live up to it and learn from it. Now, you look for someone else to blame for it.
On the Military,
I just read yesterday about how bad the military has gotten since they have integreated women into it. THIS IS NOT MENT TO DEMEAN OUR FEMALE READERS!!! It said that our combat readiness is a joke and that the warrior spirt is nearly gone replaced now with sensitivity training. They went on to say that the only branch not to give in to it is the USMC and they are now the only branch of service that has no trouble filling their quotas. I also found it interesting that they said that a lot of the jobs women filled in Desert Storm such as ammo loaders and supply handlers, were jobs that they fell down on, because they could not keep up and the men had to do extra work because of it. The article went on to say that if something isn't done soon we could have a military that was reminisant of the 70s at the end of the Viet Nam war.

Pete,
Yes, I still eat Varget on my Bran every morning, after "Blending" as per lito's instructions, and would be trying to shoot it in the 6.5x284 except that the new "Short Cut" 4831 is a slower version of Varget with the same qualities!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)


Brent,

You can paint the scope body, obviously not the lenses and turret caps on the scope.

1)Remove and lightly spray da caps exterior after masking the innards.

2) Leave them intact and cover with burlap, pantyhose, removable bow tape, etc. etc.
 

anybody else???
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.162)


Jim'; I think it was the bay of pigs and thereafter. Up till then it was company policy to protect and serve. Went to hell after that.

Jeeesus! if you need a load buy a can of Varget, the load max's are on the side just like calories on a Pepsi Can. You ain't gonna blow up yore gun. More likely you'll smoke up your safety glasses (which I hope you're wearing or blow your ear drums when you fail to put on your protectors). Ackley tried to blow up guns and couldn't put enough powder in a case to do it. A piece of mud in a 12 gauge barrel or a stuck plastic case half way up the barrel is far more likely to blow your gun and kill you than the worst reload you ever heard off.
I've seen guys blow a primer and almost faint, I've even stuck a bolt so damn tight I had to send it in to get it out but nothing is likely to blow, just watch your eyes and be darn careful around semi autos and you'll live as long as me. The most common reload problem I know is with a well known loading Manual that has .270 win and .270 weatherby printed in such a way that I know of several people who have loaded the weatherby in the .270. Big smoke blown primers and stuck bolts but a good bolt gun will hold. Pat; expierenced what many of us have with custom chambers. Smith's use the smallest chambers assuming you want some kind of accuracy from out of the box factory
ammo. This is a futile gesture in that most of the good loads are fire formed anyhow. Another problem is with the difference between factory and military loads. The cases are different in their metal and size, But you won't blow a good gun with it.
I saw a double charge of 231 and many times bullseye in .45 colts blow the clip out the bottom but some revolvers will blow the frame apart and rupture the chambers. The chances you gonna screw up on the
scale readings or the reading the books is your biggest enemy.
Be sure you read your powder scale correctly!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


For get it. Sorry I brought it up Pablito. Bye.
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:36:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.215.216.198)
Jim Mitchell, I feel for you. Nothing like wondering if you will have cover if the crap hits the fan. What I have seen in the the last twenty years of LE is the Me Me Me of LE coming to power. Too many guys and gals are in LE for a paycheck and really should be working at Safeway. When I started I was told by an Old Time Cop "F.. with the people that need to be F..'d with and leave the rest of the people F..ng alone" He also taught me we all live through this or we all die in this. Words to live by! Too many are stopping Grandma for no signal light (safe) and not seeing the car of Gang Bangers go by. Being a sergeant I have made it my goal to get the ones that are more interested in how their hair looks to move onto different shifts. The longer I am in this the more I want guys who have been there with me before to cover my big butt. At 34 you are just finding out that not all cops are the same no matter what the Chief and Affirmative Action say. When we stop hiring and promoting people with the minimum qualifications we will go back to real LE. Several years ago I was offered one of many Medical Retirements(bad knees, shoulder, feet). My Lt. at the time said "Mike you have over a 50% Disability Rating you should get another job and collect your 50% retirement. You are not the stud you used to be" My response to this was "Lt. 50% of me or 100% of Insert Name Here, what would you prefer to have coming to help you. His response was "Good point I wont bother you again" I have been doing the job for ten years since then. He was right but the sad fact is so was I. The applicant pool for LE with all the we have to fill this and that Affirmative Action things has left LE in a bad way. Further with the same type of promotions we have gone even farther from the Lets do it attitude. So after much rambling I will tell you. Pick out who you work around if you can. Find someone who wiull cover you and cover them in return. It is only through hard work and not giving up that we will win over the model types. Good luck

I am not getting into the reloading discussion.

Everything PD's and the Military buy has to do with Politics

Looking forward to seeing some of you in June.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.22)


Jim/Mike,

I can emphasize with both of you, been there situationally - didn't like it one F#$%^ing bit. Specially when your "backup" is peeking round the corner half a block away, if they get the nerve to show up.

Its far worse as you know, when you have to go in and defuse, or attempt to gain control a thing gone REAL bad, or the fans on frappe'

Don't let Un-Dude fool you guys, for a Bionic Man he's in awful good shape. Just like my pal the Depity ;-)

Stay Safe!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:35:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.57)


I’ve been visiting SC/DR regularly. I’m not a SWAT guy or a military special operator. I’m just Joe Sixpack with a benign interest in the art and science of sniping. I’m not even a wannabe.
There are a number of the regular posters that seem to think that some sniping related subjects should not be discussed in this open forum. Either the subject is too basic to be of interest or is too sensitive from an OPSEC perspective. These same folks embrace with great enthusiasm subjects ranging from immigration policy to animal husbandry. (Sheep herding in particular)
It seems that the Duty Roster has become the domain of a chosen few. When a new person finds the courage to post here, he is too often dismissed for asking such a basic question or a “here we go again” statement is made by one of the regulars. There are a lot of people who have never, and will never eat at the Mountaineer or enjoy a RC and a Moon Pie in Building Four. This is no reason to dismiss them. How many of us remember when we set up our first precision rifle or loaded our first cartridge? Did we have any questions? Give the new folks a break.
As far as OPSEC goes I guess I just don’t appreciate the sensitive nature of some of the forbidden subjects. It is obvious that the where, what, who and when of any operation should be kept secret.
To forbid the discussion of certain techniques because they are secret boggles me. Maybe because they are secret and I don’t know them then there is no way for me to fully appreciate the reason they are kept secret. I can’t help but grin every time someone goes “shush” on this forum. With the OPSEC reminder comes the inference that the person doing the reminding is on the inside and is privy to things mere mortals must never know. I guess this secrecy thing is working because I’ve begun to question whether or not any secret techniques even exist.
Splash, over.

Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:52:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.32.221.103)


All right guys, on loading, my two cents (adjusted for inflation, nothing). I've had my lessons in this the hard way. Book loads safe? I used the same brass, powder (at mid range load!!), bullet, and primer in a Speer manual. Shot it in my 6" Python. Couldn't open the cylinder, due to blown primer "spot welded" onto the firing pin. That having been said, there is LOTS(!!!) to learn about loading from someone elses loads. I currently use AA2520 or VV135 in my M1A. I like 'em, and they're APPROPRIATE powders for THAT gas gun. So I ask around (wondering if someone has something better) and it turns out that Patron 'Lito uses a virtually identical load. Just a grain or two different, and slightly different brass. What difference does that make? If two or more shooters of a specific type of rifle, have found an "ideal" recipe, and it's incredibly close, odds are you're on the right track. No need to re-invent the wheel, just FIT it to a good Pirelli and drive! Of course, all that goes out the window with this new Kreiger, but where do you think I'm gonna START looking for a good round, somewhere around where I KNOW works? BTW, my smith says that Varget w/175's is supposed to be trick for M1A's. Any comments on it's burn rate appropriateness?
Brass prep? You mean there's more than just full length sizing & tumbling it? HA!

And thanks for the recognition PeteR, beginning to feel like a "regular" :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:09:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


Hey now, Mr. Mussack, there shall be no offensive remarks dealing with RC cola OR moon pies! Other than that, welcome! ;-)

Patron Dave, forgot to ask, you an Ag, or just know about Rudder's Rangers? On the list of accomplishments, you might wanna add the F-15 Strike Eagle (if what I was told was true).
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
here we go again in the, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:15:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


What you mean subordinates were not created to fall upon their sword when you screw up? I must have joined the wrong army!

OPSEC: I don't think about it much these days - But I am wholehearted agreement with Rick (I think I already mentioned it). When you are face to face with buddies, you can shoot the shit and have a open forum. But with this you never know who someone is - and you never know who's lurking. There are alot of things that civvies don't need to know. I think we'd all feel pretty shitty if some greasy turd learned something valuable off here, to drop some LE. Bad enough some grow ops are getting hi-tech they don't need help.

Dave: MH says Canuks can't go to SOTIC? Don't trust us? - I am wondering if Gene Econ's liberation comments have some truth. Dropped some HSM and am trying to see if we can offcially use it.

Anyway Shooting question here - anyone got any ideas on cleaning up my HK91 trigger w/o a PSG1 system.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:30:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.129.51)


Kevin R. Mussack...

If you're just a joe six-pack, and not even a wannabee, then why are disturbed because some sensitive information on defeating police or military equipment, is not made available to you? Are you looking for cool cocktail party chatter?

Remember that it's not just a dozen folks that read this site... there are some 1000 to 2000 folks a day that drop by are read this stuff, and not all of them come with a pedigree.

Why would you need to know how to defeat Day-IR... and how would the person who gave out that information feel, if they read the papers, that those same techniques used in a crime?

There is no closed club here... you wanna be a regular, just post on a regular basis.

And about RC cola, Moon pies, and sheep... you better lighten up dude!! :))

Pablito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 19:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.29)


Guys,
First I would like to thank DC8Plumber (sorry I forgot your name), Bravo, Bill and PeteR for their responses to my questions a couple of weeks ago. ( I asked about the Bushmaster or M1A for starting out DCM and trigger work on my PSS questions). I think I will go for the BM (heh,heh,heh..I said BM) DCM upper. But now I have two unrelated things. First, does anyone know who makes a strong steel trigger-guard for a 700 Police DM and where I might be able to find one. Also, I thought you all might like to know that MTV has been airing a very aggressive commercial from HCI. It is similar in format to those DUI commercials that starts out with home video of a family then cuts to "killed on such and such date by a drunk driver", except this one is interrupted by "BANG...Haven't we had enough?" I don't know if there are a lot of MTV viewers that lurk/post here, but if there are I would suggest that you stop watching MTV and/or write them a letter. I've already notified the NRA/ILA so they can make it more known. Believe it or not they (MTV) have a very strong influence on today's youth and I don't like them filling kids' minds with trash ( more than they already do). Once again thanks to all who have helped me in the past. It's nice to be able as a novice shooter to go to a place run by experienced and knowledgeable people and feel welcome without any condescention (sp?). I've learned a lot and hope to keep on learning even more in the future. Thanks alot!
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 21:26:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.199)
Al O,
I'm not sure if this is ledgable or not, considering I'm using a new Braille keyboard. Damn you, I'm blind. Something of that magnitude should never see the light of day. That picture should have an "Eyes Only" clearance header. I can see the end of humanity now, my blindness has given me clairvoyance. Plagues and pestilence will befall us all. I hear the trumpets now.
Please don't take me, I'm not ready!!!!!!
P.S. Ginger says lawsuit to follow this posting! Followed by a slow agonizing death. Hope your insurance is paid up. Notify the next of kin.
Enough of this foolishness. Back to our regularly scheduled program.
 

AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 21:55:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.116.83)


RING LAPPING
I have a REM 700 PSS in 308, installing a Leupold scope with Badger rings and bases. A gunsmith that builds long range rifles said he would recommend lapping the rings. Is this necessary? It cost $65 for him to do it. THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:38:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.120.66.84)
Mr. Mussack - Hope you are joking about OPSEC. The "regulars" here do not exclude new posters and there are no little "I know something and you don't" mentalities here. If that was the case this place would have very few postings. The reason I stated OPSEC is that for all I know YOU are a terrorist of the "insert your favorite cowardly organization here" and you are surfing the web for techniques. OPSEC is very real and I will follow it. You are a nameless entity that only says he is joe six-pack. You see, we really don't know. And THAT is the reason for OPSEC, not some secret handshake or Moon Pie cravings. I would never forgive myself if I were to find out that anyone were to be harmed becasue of a technique learned from me on this forum. Thus OPSEC lives and will continue to live. If you can live with that welcome and join the fray. Anyone on this forum will aid in answering your questions on the forum, in email or even by snail mail as has been done in the past. I, for one however, could care less if you feel that you have been slighted because I reminded individuals of what was said on an open forum. As I too am a mere mortal and I will be damed if I will take a chance of being shot because of me mentioning something that should not have been discussed. If you feel that you have a God given right to every piece of information, then you need go to the wannabe sites where guys whisper so called secrets out of WWII manulas and feel self important.

Kevin, of that Great Country to our north known the world over as Canada - SOTIC was restricted to US forces only. HOWEVER, just last year we had two seperate occasions in which snipers from Germany attended our course. This may mean a lessening of the restrictions, which would be fine by me, or a goof in protocol. I would vote for the goof, because to lessen the restrictions usually involves the stars on high. None of us on the commitee have heard of any changes and were surprised by the students. Heck, check with the US Army LNO in your area and see what can be done. I am assuming that you are still active military with a reason to attend. :)
 

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:47:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.188)


Kevin,

Please don't take it personally if others on this forum prefer to avoid certain topics.

I am also not military or LE. Most (95%+) of my customers are. I'm an old woodchuck and deer hunter who loves precision shot placement, ear-to-ear on a chuck at 250 yds., or heart or spine shot on a deer. I like slinging large bullets at targets 1000 yds. away, too. A love of rifles and the skills involved in using them is what brings me here, so I think that we are not too far apart in this.

Point is, many of my customers want to remain somewhat anonymous for a variety of reasons, the possibility of retaliation towards themselves or their loved ones by bad guys being a major (and valid) concern. " Blown cover" is another issue, same reason that some of the reluctant "stars" of network TV programs appear in shadows or with their faces blurred. Some of the people that I deal with on this site have only revealed their true line of work to me after over a year of dealing with me, and after having personally met me and getting to know me. It's not cloak-and-dagger stuff, just plain old self-preservation. I cannot help but respect their wishes.

Same goes for discussion of certain topics that could negatively impact the day-to-day performance of their jobs, jobs in which they daily put their lives on the line. I do not feel that everyone in the US (or the world, within the context of Internet postings) has the need or the right to know everything. Consequently, I believe that certain topics of discussion may (and should) be curtailed on this or any other responsible site.

Don't take offense at someone saying, "I don't think that this is an appropriate topic for this forum, because the information could get a cop or soldier killed if it became widespread knowledge."

Please continue to post, ask questions, and contribute your knowledge to the site. Everyone xere has learned something from someone else.

Best Regards from Just Anorther Shooter.
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM On Fire, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:53:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.122.48)


Gooch: Any chance of you comin' up here this summer? Specifically, my neck of the woods (Nova Scotia).

Mr. Mussack: Sir, if you don't prefer sheep, may I suggest a truly Canadain animal? Try beaver. We like it so much up here, we even put it on our 5 cent coins! Sure, the furry little buggers stink like hell. But once you get by the smell, man, you got it licked!

OPSEC: Unfortunately, this is just reality. I guess if we civies want to know all the "good stuff", we better be prepared to haul ass down to our recruiting offices and sign up.

Rick B: Once we pass boot camp, when do we get to know the pass word and the secret hand shake? I supopose in Special Forces, they would have a whole book of those! Just kidding, just kidding.

By the way, anyone know the best load for...oops! Sorry.
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:14:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.54.49)


Dear Duty Roster,

As a member of the Virginia Army National Guard and a sniper candidate here in a unit in the Northern Virginia area, I am attempting to learn all that I can about sniper training. My question is, are there different classifications of military snipers? Someone recently asked me if I was a "Class II" sniper, and I quite honestly didn't know how to respond, other than to say that I was not yet a sniper, but working towards that goal. nd Iyou tell me anything about the different sniper classifications, if any?
I am curious to know, is all. Thanks in advance for any information you might be able to provide me! I think your website is fantastically laid out with good information, and most importantly, a wonderful goal for those who are serious and mature military and police snipers and aspirants.

Sincerely,

Warren Gregory
Warren Gregory <kenshaku@pressroom.com >
Alexandria , Virginia , USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:22:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.249.182.208)


Ok all you snipers answer me this:

What adjustment or adjustments would you make to your scope to hit a target at 100 yrds if the target lets say is in a train moving 60mph and you are in a smooth riding jeep running parrallel with the train at the same speed. Assuming 1/4 moa clicks and 0 wind .

I remember a year or two ago, Marius I think, used to post questions like this in the form of a game. A lot of fun thinking about this stuff.

Hey Sarge you still shooting Savages?

BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:19:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.71.233)


Hey guys, I could use a hand with something. I purchased a couple of 4" scopesmith sunshades for my Lupita Mk4 M3, and found out the hard way that all salesmen don't know what they're talking about. They don't fit. I called Leupold and they say that the only one that is manufactured through them that will fit is the 2.5" non stackable. So where do I get a nice sunshade for this thing, say 10" or so? We all KNOW that you guys use them, so hows about a little help! THANKS.

Drop the chalupa? Hand me a moon pie! I'll pass on the sheep.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with unconstitutional laws, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:31:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.208)


Doug;

To answer your question about ring lapping... maybe!

The Badger rings are made better than any other ring you can buy, that’s probably why you bought them.
The Base is made the same exacting standards also.
HOWEVER the good people at Remington might not be quite as picky as the guy at Badger Ord.
Its like building a house if the foundation is bad, the walls are not perfect and the roof will suffer too!
If it requires lapping it won’t be much.
Remember install the base after the action is torqued in to the stock this will pull some of the twist and warp out of the action and minimizes effect on the mount.

Martin Bordson
Badger Ordnance

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:34:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.186)


The range we have near DIA in Denver is having the 2nd annual 50 bmg fun shoot May 19-21. We are shooting up cars and propane tanks and other stuff. I posted this info last week and three of you have signed up to shoot.

I now am working on another military style fun shoot for the fall. We have 100 acres with a dry creek bed running thru it. We want to develope some sort of event where we gear up in full battle dress and fire from several positions. Some ideas were to be under fire from paint ball shooters, fire on autos, at targets etc.

Any ideas out there that we could work into our shoot? Anyone is welcome to attend and I will post a date before long.
Mark 303-377-0034
Mark Mason <whacemason@usa.net>
aurora, co, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:09:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.2.199)


Bruce Robinson, coming to The Sniper Rendezvous?

Mr Bordson, welcome!

Mr Mussack, welcome!

R-C COLAS! MOONPIES! sSSHHHEEEEP! Secret Handshakes and decoder rings (w/ mildot capability no less!)Damn, what did I miss in eight Duty Roster deprived hours?
 
 

Al O,
I'll let you deal with mrs peteR, PERSONALLY, for that last pix of the Chalupa, terrified to wits end by,

Retch!

Ugh!

Shudder!

GASP!

That Thing.................
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:37:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.49)


Just a short note.

Kevin Mussack is alright. Know him personally. Him and his son attended a course at SMTC during my tenure there. Other than Kevins affinity for the local four legged fair he is good to go:-)

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178)


Jim Mitchell,

I don't know the exact circumstances of the incident you were involved in, but figure it was probably law enforcement related.
I have seen a few people freeze up under pressure, but generally have been lucky with the guys who work my precinct, because even though we have a few boneheads, we never have to worry about getting help from anyone. Officers on other precincts are not always so lucky.

I think Mike Miller in particular hit upon some good points. One thing in particular was, as he put it, the Me Me Me syndrome. Another thing I have noticed is the school of thought that tries to manipulate image, often by using ambiguous terms that try to make everything seem bright and rosy. Everyone can see right through that. Unfortunately, many higher ups fail to realize that if the function of a unit is squared away, the image will reflect that. The same is true for individuals.

But what to do? No matter how hard we try, there will always be some idiots who fail to realize how serious, sometimes deadly serious, things can get. The only answer is to always do the best you can and set the example for others to follow.

I have served in the military and law enforcement my whole adulthood, and I am firmly convinced they are among the most rewarding professions, but they are also among the most frustrating, almost always due to higher-ups.

I am now 32, and decided a while ago that I would stop worrying about the stupid games that go on. I also decided that I would start acting like the 21 year old infantry Lance Corporal that I used to be. Since then, things have been a lot more fun. Surprisingly, I haven't gotten into any real trouble, either. I guess that is what judgement, which can only come from experience, does.

If anyone gets anything from this post, let it be this;

1. Set the example.
2. If you never fail your team-mates, you'll never fail.
 

Semper Fi,

Mark Johnson <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.51)


BillM - Nope got a good deal on a Remington 700VS a year + ago and haven't looked back, though I wouldn't hesitate to own another Savage!

OK I now have a question concerning...Compasses - and you'all thought I was going to ask about RC Cola and a Moon Pie!
ANYWAY - anyone tried the "new" compass that Timex is putting in a watch, along with all the other "regular" stuff of course. Supposedly uses the same technology that the newer in car comapsses use. Good, bad, indifferent?? Thanks guys.

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:50:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.196)


Ok, on the handloading stuff I mentioned earlier, I realize I made that terrible mistake you get when you "assume" something. I mentioned the powder loads, bullet type and weight, etc., that I was using for the .300 win mag Sendero. I'm using the Speer reloading manual, and the loads I mentioned were 1 to 2 grains below max as listed. Hopefully no one will jump immediately to those loads, as all rifles perform differently. I worked my way up to the loads, and found what works best in performance. Now that I've made an arse of myself, I'd like to clarify that I was just mentioning the performance I received from H-4350 in the .300 win mag, and not stating that those are the best loads, I'm sure there are better. I basically wanted to let Bad Karma know how the powder worked for me to a question he put on the DR earlier. Guess I'll shut up now before I swallow my other foot ;-)

RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.234.20.198)


I'm glad to see I wasn't the only person that Al O blinded.

AIRBORNE!!!! (at least used to be,thanks to Al)
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:05:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.119.19)


Grasshoppers'; you aren't foolin me with this secrecy crap, I'm not tellin what I know about stalkin yote's or lope's, you guys could slip up on anything if you knew all that. That Rick over there be wantin me to tell him how to talk to gators next. Told Al about sheep
stalkin when the herders are around(learned that from a yote') and look what happened, never again! That's what I get for takin his word for (bein a gentleman around barn animals), told me he was just Joe, six pack, liked to watch sheep and drink beer. Fat Chance!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 11:45:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bill R,
You go telling these boys trade secerets on coyotes and stalking goats, you will just "Disapear" some cold winter morning while setting out there with your favorite call cause you broke the code of silence!!
0 In all seriousness guys, we need to remember that there are a lot of unseen people who monitor the DR and I am sure we probably wouldn't want a lot of the information that is out there passed on to them. We also need to be damn thankful that guys like Gooch and Rick who have been there and done that are kind enough to take the time to share what they can and do with us. I have never met Rick but have asked him many questions off line and he has been more than willing to help me out and even sent me a bunuch of training material when I was trying to figure out mildots and stalking. I have met Gooch and Bruce Robinson and they are both very knowledgable and great guys to set down and have a beer with. I never got the feeling at any time while talking to Rick or the others that they wouldn't do anything they could to help out a fellow shooter if they could. I don't think its any of my bussiness or probably anyone elses on how to defeat some of the high tech stuff thats out there, and if they know, theres probably a reason for them to know. Its always fun to talk about new things and to try and learn something new esp when it comes to this field but I don't think there is any reason to "Bite" the hand that feeds us when they say "NO" we shouldn't go there. Just my two cents worth and to all of the "LEARNED ONES" on here, I thank you for sharing what you do!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 12:45:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Jim Ryan, welcome! Jim makes excellent sniper rifles, suppressors, and other special-ops exotica, and did me a favor years ago doing work on a favorite MP-5K. He also runs Tac-Ord, which built the prize 300 Win Mag for the Storm Mountain Hathcock Match last year.

Jim M, I'm sorry you had that disappointment with your peers, but when the day comes when push comes to shove, you'll finally know who you can and can't depend on. As a professional soldier of only 22 years, I've learned that birds of a feather flock together. I don't know Gooch or Rick or many of the other service regulars here well at all, but when I met them (after the usual wary circling and figurative butt-sniffing) you can tell if a man is somebody you might be able to trust backing you up, based on first impressions. The whole military and combat arms team is BUILT on trust. The man on the other end of the radio or crypto, or sharing a bordering control line or support platform may be a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine that you'll never meet, or know from Adam. You are trained to trust that the guy servicing your "Danger Close" call for fire, or bomb run, or delivering your beanie-weenies will be there, OR WILL BUST HIS ASS to get there because HE PROMISED and he doesn't want to let you down. Those that always deliver build the reputation as being the guys to call. Those that don't get known as the asset of last resort.

Since so many of our readers have minimal, (if any) military experience nowadays, I'd like to share one of the things that had a profound influence on my life as an 18-year old private.
 

"THE RANGER CREED

Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high eprit de corps of my Ranger Battalion.

Acknowledging the fact a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that, as a Ranger, my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be. One hundred per cent and then some.

Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, my neatness of dress and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.

Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word nor will I leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.

Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude and desire to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!"

Pick your buds and back-ups carefully.
 

Kevin, the Navy issued Black Hills red box match ammo yesterday at the Atlantic Fleet Rifle Match yesterday, and I assume will also issue the same this coming week for the All-Navy. The label says 77 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match, US Navy Rifle Team. The bullets are NOT moly-coated. The Marines are issuing Black Hills red box 73 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match (Moly coated, but i don't know whose bullet they use).

Bravo, '82.

Sorry for hogging the space.
 

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 13:42:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


Kevin, one of the Army shooters showed me a box of Black Hills red box 80 grain loads for single-feeding during the 600 and 1000 yard slow fire stages. The label says something like "80 grain USAMU. WARNING: Exceeds standard SAAMI pressures. Use only in USAMU weapons." The bullet is an 80-grain Sierra Match King (raw bullet, no moly).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 14:10:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
HeadlineNews is asking for viewer input on gun control. Time
Warner has a record of biased reporting when it comes to this issue, so
we need to show them gun owners are watching. You'll have to register
an account first,
then post on the message
board
Anthony <antposh@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 14:12:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.18.114)
HEY HEY!!! GO VOTE HERE ALSO THEN GO SEE HOW THE OTHER CALIFORNOCATORS ARE VOTING!!!!

http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html
 

They ask some basic questions.
Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, CLINTONFORNIA, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 14:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.101)


My platoon just received a new LT. What he wants us to do is to provide information on when and why the Marine Corps Snipers adobted the SS. He has been constantly approached by other officers claiming that it is nothing more than a racist design because of the similarities of the design compared to the Waffen SS. He needs something to fire back at them with. Any info would be appreciated.
Nick Sawall <Loerapm@1mardiv.usmc.mil>
Camp Pendleton, Ca, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 14:54:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.156.5.36)
Does anybody out there have any real (not just what Springfield says)
knowledge about the "IDF M14 Sniper Rifle" from Springfield Armory ?
Is it real or just a clone ? What is a "Nimrod 6X40" scope ? In my
circle calling someone nimrod is looked at as mildly derogatory.Is the
scope mount really IDF, and if so is it any good? For the money
involved, would I be better off getting a Fulton gas-gun? On a different subject- is the Winchester "Sharpshooter" available to the
civilian population? If so, where can I get one? I am no "nimrod", I
just feel the need for a .300 Win. to help round out my often-used
collection of Rem.PSS's (.308&.223) and would like to add another
gas-gun to my well worn Polytech M14S-M21 rebuild clone.

Rich S. from Bawlimaw: I noticed what you're talking about on MTV.
Writing directly to them does no good at all-they are as red as they
can get. Write to their advertisers, write to your local broadcaster,
your cable provider, or to your satellite service and request that
MTV is blocked or removed from your service.

'lito: It's Nehi and Moon Pies in the part of the Commonwealth that I'm from ;-)

Thanks,Al S.

Al S. <asimon@gj.net>
The Former Free State Of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:23:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.200)


BILLM, about your game

you didn't mention the direction of motion, or the range. traveling east to west- shooting south to north. ok.
you also failed to mention the velocity of your ammunition. so, i assume, like the rest of your variables, it is something nice and even like, say, 3000fps- muzzle and 100yds. downrange (...yeah i know :). so we got a bullet on the range for .1 second. that gives the shooter and the target time to move 8.8 ft. to the west. that's 105.6 MOA or 422-423 1/4 MOA clicks, to keep a dead-on hold that is. personally i'd rather use a dot to find the width of the sections of paneling or molding on the side of the train and use that to find a hold 8.8 feet to the left- then a right hander would have to have a spotter to let them know if the subject ducked, moved, or died of old-age.
i'm not gonna begin to try and deal with the 60mph crosswind you created when you said that the shooter was travelling too. i think i'd stop the jeep and let the sear drop sometime before the target enetered my scope. is that cheating?
is this taking place in bonneville?
am i wearing fresh or threedaycrusty field undies?
 

kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)


...also, according to Einstein's theory of general relativity a MOA on a plane moving 60mph perpendicular to the observer is actually an elipse with a horizontal diameter something like .318 inches (still and inch on the vertical)
 

kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:46:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)


Fellas:

After having shot my Sendero for years I recently received a new HS Precision HTR.... Hailing from "The Last Frontier" and being an avid hunter my rifle puts in alot of time in the field in some miserable conditions... wet, cold, rain, snow...for days to weeks at a time. The only "cover" it receives is when "we" snuggle up next to each other in the tent and hope that tonight won't be the night Mr. Bear decides to come through the tent wall (Happened on the upper Kenai River on a fall duck hunt). After a rifle has been subjected to these conditions, what sort of maintainance should be performed? I'm comfortable w/ proper cleaning and protection of the bore, but what about things like the action? What should be removed and serviced? Should a 'smith do this?

Feel free to email me direct, and thanks for any guidance.

Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 16:05:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.244.184.230)


H-K G3 Does anyone know the proper procedure to modify a G3 trigger to semi auto only.
Earl <egahps@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 16:27:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.75)
Last weekend, after a sprint halfway to the slag pile and back while carrying my 15-pound SWS, I started giving some thought to a lightweight sniper rifle. (Sorry for barfing on your rappel tower Rod.) I’ve got a couple of questions;
a) Is there a .308 load, which will remain supersonic at 1.000 yd. when, fired from a 20-inch barrel? (I don’t think so but I thought I would ask.)
b) How severe is the muzzle flash from a 20” .308? Can using the proper powder mitigate it? If so what kind of powder produces the least flash?
c) Is there any hope that a commercially available BDC would match the ballistics from a 20” .308?
Thanks.

Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:16:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.32.221.130)


Matt if you have bore sighter, set it up and note the zero on the screen. Tighten it securely but not too tight. Get your allen wrench and pull the Sendero out of the stock. Use break free or some other agent to clean out the trigger and wipe the rest down. A rust agent wouldn't be a bad addition. To remove the firing pin and spring on the bolt requires a special tool to prevent a real troublesome job.
I would just use the break free and blow hell out of the inside of the bolt. Avoid wd-40 in this part of the rifle. It will let you down in the cold. If you haven't bumped the bore sighter you should be able to torgue it back down to the 60 inch lbs or whatever just get it goodtentight and see if your zero has returned. If there's a drastic movement in zero something is amiss. Id check the stock bedding or have it done. A good sendero will return without a lot of fuss. If you don't have a bore sighter just go rezero at the range and if it's off a bunch try to determine what's wrong. One of those squares is about 4moa. Causes of zero move are, action bending caused by something (barrel or action) touching somewhere where it wasn't before or bad or poor scope mounts, or screws tightened in wrong order or...........You should not shift over 1 moa max. If you system is fairly stable.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:34:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Doc, did you buy the little 20"? Looks like the world is about to discover the advantages of a rifle that doesn't need wheels. I remember the first time I mentioned cutting a barrel off on SC.
It's like this... God gives me the news and then I'm supposed to tell
everybody else!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Al S.

Nehi works for me!

Have your dealer order the M70 Sharpshooters direct from Winchester...
not through a distributer... they are between $2000, to $2200.
Call Wincheter, and ask to speak to Leslie in the custom dept... she will send you information, and tell you what's available, or how long you have to wait for what you want.

Dr. Kg...
If you and the target are moving together at the same speed, and direction, the only correction you have to make is for wind, so don't ignore it. But you need the BC and velocity to get the numbers.
The speed of the train, and jeep (if they are the same) make no difference.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)


Gentlemen,
Thanks for taking the time to read/answer my question!!!
I'm having a lot of difficulty finding someone who will give me an honest, non-biased answer regarding what rifle I should put my hard earned cash upon. I would like to buy a M14/M1A1 to use in club competitions, informal shooting at the range and just maybe... hunting (although, I have a Sako 300Win that works very very well for that purpose). What do/should I buy? I want a MOA rifle. Do I want a Polytech pre-ban,or some US made M14,a Springfield "loaded", a Springfield Supermatch (a little costly there???) or should I forget about the M14 and just buy a Remington 700 with a heavy barrel?
How much difference is there between a "loaded" M1A1 (Springfield) and a Supermatch? Is the difference worth the cost? Can I take a rack- grade and turn it into a Supermatch for less than the "out of box" cost of a Supermatch...or, is it worth it to try? Is the Supermatch cost justified in increased accuracy and quality (barrel, trigger work, bedding, etc.)? I don't know? Help please. I've found that all of the shooters I trust all have (it's natural, so do I) favorite brands, ideas of accuracy, trade-off considerations and opinions of what's good and what's not.... I thought I'd try you gents and ask for honest opinions. Thanks, hope to hear from you soon...good shooting!
GG
Grant Griffin <G_Griffin@allison-fisher.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 20:05:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.244.73.153)
Gents,

It's been a while! Lots of questions etc. being posted in the Emporium! Anyway - I know everyone here loves the Rem 700 action, and not to start up and old discussion, but does anyone else here think that there is better ( Win 70 maybe ).I would like some of your oppinions on the M70 action, especaily the pushfeed (or I've heard it called positive feed) action.

Thanks much...
Steve
Steve <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 21:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.242)


Everyone who is eligible must make sure that they are registered to vote this fall! Even though I like Mr. Keyes, it's not likely he'll win. I read somewhere that the next administration may place as many as 5 supreme court justices in place - pretty scary if Gore wins. Remember, if you don't vote...you don't have the right to complain about what you get for government. I yield the soapbox!
Gerry <gerryc@teleport.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 23:16:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.3.195)
Dear DR:

Actually I am not good at thinking up scenerios for "games" as seen by my lack of complete info for the question, rather I was kinda hoping that Rich or Gooch or someone would pick it up again. Ya know, post winners and give out prizes to whomever gets the monthly question right, ya know like a car or all expence paid trip to hawaii or a hat or somethin. :)

BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 23:22:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.71.164)


308 AMMO
I've read pages on sniper ammo and I saw a listing for TALON White Feather ammo and 308 SLAP ammo Does anyone know where to buy these? THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 01:22:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.120.66.16)
Dave, Thanks for the warm welcome. I think last time I saw you was at COPEX in D.C.
Kevin, Have you considered using a polygonal barrel to reach the velocites you desire out of a 20" barrel. We are having Pac-Nor make ours now and the velocities are promising. A 20" .308 is giving off the same velocities as a 26" barrel with "regular" rifling.
I have had quite a few people email me about the ownership of suppressors and I want to assure everyone that the ownership of an NFA weapon does not in anyway deprive you of the rights you already have. The BATF can not and never has to my knowledge arbitrarily went to someones home and asked to see the weapon for no reason whatsoever. Remember, to the ATF the most important thing is the payment of the TAX. Most ATF agents I know feel that an owner of NFA weapons go thru so much paperwork in order to procure these weapons that they don't consider the owners to be a problem.
Jim
Jim Ryan <ryn1523@aol.com>
Meridian, Idaho, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 01:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.51)
Nick Sawall:
Have your Lt. remind his comrades that the Corps never has had and will never have room for racisim. In the Corps there are two colors: light green and dark green. While I can't provide exact details on the SS - Im pretty sure that is not racially founded. In my book - it's the signature of a brotherhood that few get the privilege of being part of.

Semper Fi and Good luck!

Ken :)

Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 02:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.21.143.10)


WARNING!!!! THIS MAY BE A STUPID OBSERVATION. I hang around here all the time and pick up some really great ideas that help my shooting. This scope lapping deal, for instance. Brother in law purchased a rem 700 pss BM. We scoped it up, and he was p____sed that my Savage was a better shooter. Back to the bench and installed a one piece base and lapped the rings in with a lapping kit from Sinclar ( they have some really neet stuff !). Anyway, went back out to the range and WOW! Three shots into 1/2 inch! Is this scope lapping deal real, or am i just getting to be a better shot?
Larry
Larry <tmhorn@hotmail.com>
okla., USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 02:36:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.141.216.154)
Nick.

I hate to bring this out here but yes the SS deal did have its start with a small group of snipers out of Pendleton in the early 80's who were fans of the Nazi's. There used to be and may still be a pea brain by the name of John Metzger (I think I spelled it right) who ran a neo-nazi bunch out of Fallbrook. I think it was the White Arian Resistance (WAR). Anyway it was fans of this bunch that started using the lightening bolt SS in tatoos, patches etc. I know that Norm Chandler and others have tried to say that this is not the case but..sorry thats the real deal. I was stationed in 5th Marines at the time and have first hand knowledge of this. I dont think there were too many blatant racial statements connected with the use of the SS but you can't deny that it is the same symbol used by the nazi's. There actually used to be Marines who passed out neo-nazi propaganda at Tallega (Recon Bn) and elseware. I helped get one kicked out of Security Forces in 1990 or 1991.

I am an ardent beleiver that the Sniper Platoons should stay away from the nazi SS symbols, the skull symbols etc. Our fathers and grandfathers DIED to defeat the nazi's and any use of ANY symbol associated with the nazi's is an insult to the WWII soldiers who fought the nazi's.

Snipers should be the most disciplined and mature Marines in the Bn and the only symbol they need is the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. I had an email from a Scout-Sniper in 3rd Marines forwarded to me from a Marine in the USMC Scout-Sniper Association complaining that his Bn was was trying to take away thier "elite" status. What elite status? Snipers are not elite, they are dirty, nasty, ground pounders who are lucky to have been selected for the job. THey support unit commanders just like an Arty FO, FAC or Recon attachment does. ANy move towards elitism will only alienate the commanders and in the long run effect their viability in combat and sensitive "peace keeping" missions.

I fought elitism when units an instructor at Quantico from 82-86 and I still do. A little known fact is that it is this same mentality that helped kill the Marine Raider Bn concept after WWII.

Whew! I'm off the soap box.

Out.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 03:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)


Kevin Mussack,
My department recently went to the Remington LTR with the 20 inch fluted barrel. Fired one the other night in a low light situation and you should see the flame that baby throws..Rifle is now name Puff the Dragon. If you come back out for the advaced class..I will have one here for you to shoot
Bobby Whittington <bobbywhit@hotmail.com>
Grandfield , OK, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 03:47:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.71.45.163)
Pablito.

i hate to say it, oh Sage, but you're wrong.

Your assertion that so long as both vehicles are traveling (west) at the same speed, speed plays nno affect (save wind) on point of impact, only holds up if the muzzle of the rifle were touching the target. some of you extreme boys may get to play with 100yard barrels, but...

the westward momentum of the jeep carries with it the shooter the rifle and the bullets in the rounds in the magazine. the momentum is tranfered through the body of the shooter to the rifle, to anything inside it. the rifle exerts an amount of force exactly equal to the force involved in moving IT 60mph westward, on the inside of the right arm of the shooter. the cartridges exert this same force on the right-hand rail of the magazine- or chamber. the right-hand inside of the magazine and chamber transfer the force to carry the cartridges westward at said velocity.
when the bullet is in the barrel it is traveling north at 3000fps, and west at 88fps, giving it a trajectory greater than 90 degrees off the plane of the shooter. the inside of the barrel exerts the force necessary to take the bullet westward at 88fps. once a bullet leaves the muzzel, however, it's on it's own. with the westerly component of its trajectory removed (again, in the absense of wind resistance) the bullet will assume a trajectory of exactly perpendicular to the plane of the shooter.
toss an apple core (or some other piece of bio-degradable refuse) out the window of your car and it appears to arc backward. it does...a little bit, that's the wind resistance- the rest is charged to the relative observation of the driver. sans wind, the core will drop exactly at the point along the road the car was at when the apple left the driver's hand.

kg

kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.103)


p.s.
i don't know page 1 about wind correction. any enlightenment or articles you could point me at would be appreciated.

i hadn't looked through the Hot Tips in quite a while, and its really starting to get some meat, but i didn't see anything on wind.
hate to bring it up in the roster but...

?

kg
kg <kg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:48:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.103)


Chaps,

I've just mounted a 3-12*50 S+B onto an SSG-P.

I wanted to mount the scope as low to the axis of the bore as possible.

The mounts I've used have left clear daylight between the objective and barrel -about half a millimetre or 3 sheets of paper.

Does anyone forsee any problems with such low mounting?

(My 2 niggling doubts are based on:

a. Barrel vibrations during firing -although I doubt that
barrel oscillation near the breech would be large enough to
touch the scope I don't know for sure. Can anyone quantify
this vibration?

b. Barrel warming. Again, at bolt action rates of fire
I cannot imagine that the barrel could expand enough to touch
the scope. Can anyone quantify barrel expansion due to
heating?)

Many thanks
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 09:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.79)


Kg...

You are in a large aircraft, and traveling at Mach 2, (2200 fps) and shoot forward towards the cockpit, with a .45 auto... does:

A - You shoot the pilot and crash :(

B - The bullet fail to come out of the barrel because it's muzzle velocity is only 800fps.
C - You shoot yourself, because the bullets comes back at you at 1400fps (2200fps minus 800 fps).

You're in the same aircraft, with a width of 100 feet, and you set up a target on the other side, so now you (and the target) are moving sideways at 2200 fps. You fire your .45 at the target, and:

A - Your bullet hits the target.

B - Your bullet turns sideways and exits the plane's tail at 2768 fps (the speed of the plane + the muzzle velocity x Cosine45degrees).

Your on the ground at a shooting range in Texas, and shooting at a 100yd target, with your .308 SWS rifle... due to the rotation of the earth under you, you and the target are traveling sideways at 600 (880 fps) miles per hour, and you:

A - Hit the target.

B - Miss the target by a factor equal to the time of flight (.1 sec) x the 880 fps... you miss the target by 88 feet.

You pick up the bench and target, and put them on a jeep, and train, and travel at 60 mph (88fps)... at the same time, there is a hurricane, and the wind is blowing in the same direction as you are traveling, so there is no felt wind... you:

A - Hit the target!

B - Miss the target by the amount the train traveled... +/- the speed of rotation of the earth (depending on whether the rotational factor is a positive number or negitive number) x the Cosine of the angle of the train tracks to the rotational direction of the earth, divided by the third order cube, of your grade in high school physics.

If you answered anything but "A" to any of these... you're in deep Doo Doo, and your highschool wants their diploma back, right away.

(spin drift was more fun than this...)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 10:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)


Pablito....
Wellllll, actually, in the senarios in which you're shooting across the plane, or between the jeep and train, you won't QUITE hit the target. Depending, of course, on how big the target is.
The bullet will start to lose "sideways" velocity (90 degrees to its line of flight) as soon as it exits the muzzle, no longer being connected to either the rifle, jeep, or any thing but the air. It'll hit just "behind" whatever POI it would have had, if neither the rifle or target had been in motion. Yes, the difference is seriously minor, but it's there.
Unless, of course, it's a reverse-twist barrel, on the equator, and it's a Thursday...never mind.
Celt
Celt <dand@foggfiller.com>
Bythelake, MI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 11:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.163.7.233)
Okay, I have another one:
 

You are a sniper assigned to a large space station. This station takes the form of a large, hollow rotating drum, something like in Arthur Clark's _Rendevous with Rama_. For our purposes, we will say the drum is 1000 meters in diameter. The station is rotating in a fashion to where you are experiencing the equivilant of 1 g of pseudogravity. You are required to make a shot on the far side of the station directly opposite of you. The scope is zeroed to be direcly in line with the bore, that is, in the microgravity environment where you zeroed it the bullet strikes exactly 5cm below point of aim at all ranges. We will stipulate that "high" translates to "antispinwise" and "low" translates to "spinwise". Do you:

a) hold "high" owing to coriolis forces.

b) hold "low" to compensate for local pseudogravity.

c) hold dead on because all external forces cancel out.

d) cant know without knowing stations orientation to other gravity wells, ie, is the staion in low earth orbit, at L5 or other Lagrange point or in deep interplanetary space.

e) wheres the freakin' Tylenol?
 

Extra credit:

Calculate your exact POI and correct dope to put on the rifle, disregarding any air circulation that the stations rotation may be inducing.
 

Bonus Question:

A sniper has died and gone to heaven. St. Peter has assigned him to put a shot on the devil himself. The Devil is dancing at one edge of the head of a pin. The angel/sniper's hide is on the other edge. Calculate the shot.
 

:)
 

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 11:34:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.213.119)


Au contraire Pablito,
This is by far, much more entertaining than spin drift.
I forsee a new class at SM. Ghillie suit construction for the beds of moving trucks. You think CSX will let us practice on their trains.
Come to think of it, I-24 has a 1m stretch of interstate that parallels the tracks. I'll be back later with a report.

AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:32:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.116.202)


Ghillie monster suit on the way. Look out woods creatures!

LAP THEM RINGS, you'll be a better person for it.

Scenerio:

You are a wannabee sniper, you haven't been trained by the Gooch Master yet. You are in the woods bear hunting. You are at the bottom of a 75 degree incline hill and spot a bear at 1100 yards with your super duper mildotted spotting scope. You slowly pull the rifle to shooting position so to not be detected by the mean old bear. At the same time you are pulling out your calculater, milldot master, slope doper and crystal ball. As you fumble through converting all the damn numbers and trig out all the poop, you here this strange sound coming down the hill. As you look throught the scope you notice the bear getting bigger and bigger. You butthole is now puckering. On ten power the bear now covers the entire scope. You still haven't got the correct poop yet. What is about to happen?

A) you hockey in your BDU's cause you aren't yet good enough to figure out all the poop.

B) you start cussing the day you discovered Sniper Country cause you used to be able to look through a duplex reticled scope and figure that the bear was in range and just shoot him.

C)You start yelling GOOCH, GOOCH, GET ME OUT OF THIS MESS!

D)Too late, the bear really looks good in your ghillie suit.
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:41:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.190.53)


anyone out there with a video clip of some trace ?

thanks

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.156)


Scenario: It's Saturday AM and as none of the cartoons on TV have anything to do with riflery, you are reading SC. There is a post by Bolt about "hockey in your BDU's" that makes you laugh so hard that you:
A) Hockey in your PJ's

Oops, sorry, just the one option.

Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
xx, MI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:48:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.103)


Pablito,

i have to admit i sorta skimmed through your reply, i'll re-read it when i get home from work.

but i think i can help you where your getting messed up on the train-jeep thing. one must remember that even though the two subjects are travelling at the same speed (and in this case the EXACT same speed) their motions are completely independant. in that .1 sec. when the bullet is between when the muzzle and the 100yard line the jeep and train have both travveled westward 8.8 ft. -independant of the bullet or each other. pick up a physics book, i guarantee you'll find i'm right. i understand that when you got your diploma Galileo was going through that whole "Inquisistion" thing, but that doesn't mean it can't still be revoked :)

i'm serious about the wind correction thing. somebody point me at some knowledge or i'm gonna get seriously logic-lagged on this thread.

kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.89)


NOT even going to get into the "space station" stuff... instead will bring some of you down to earth and see if you can help me with this problem. Got an email from another shooter, he has already contacted Leupold and is waiting on (we hope) the 3rd reply...here's the dope and Q? >>
Scope : Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14 x40 ONE inch LR, manufactured 1999(we think)
Book that came with scope says 51 Minutes of adjustment elevation. On web page SAYS 67 Minutes.
THE SCOPE has 80, say again 80 minutes !! OK, does that mean that there are 6 1/2 minutes of "dead adjustment clicks", each end OR WHAT ??
To make this short...pulled my scope(same style, etc) since I just changed it from one rifle to another and haven't zeroed and guess what ?? yep, same thing...80 minutes of adjustment, elevation.
Any guesses ???

Back to my OP
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
"Sweet Home", ALABAMA, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 14:05:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.134.175)


Bolt, You Dolt!
When hunting in bear country, you should always tie little bells to your Ghille suit and carry Cayenne Pepper Spray. Go back and re-read the archives. It is in there believe me!
If it is a GRIZZLEY BEAR comming down the hill you can easily identify it by examining its Hockey. It will contain lots of little bells and smell like pepper.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 15:58:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.145.176)
Doctor Kilogram: Patron Lito keeps his title, if you adjust for a 60 MPH crosswind, you'll hit it PERFECTLY. Yeah, some of us actually went to school for physics (and the people I tutored got A's for this semester as of last week). Two semesters of quantum mechanics and all. Look at your frame of reference. Just plot it at any microsecond (we define as when the shot is fired) as a "still", then at the end of the TOF, as a "still". Guess what, same plot. If the wind was blowing at 60MPH up the shooters side (along the vector of travel) then no correction would be required whatsoever. If you need a good book, let me know. Just so happens that my prof WROTE the book ;-)

Celt: almost, not quite. The reason we build underground shooting tunnels is to negate windage. If you're in an airplane firing from wing tip to wing tip, there is no windage (we assume the plane is pressurized), and no deflection occurs without wind. As the bullet leaves the barrel, mark all forces exerted on it. You'll just get the three (powder, aeriel friction and gravity), nothing pushing it to either side once the plane is in equilibrium. For fun equilibrium case: you've got a balloon in the car for the kid. It's old, and only floating 4" off the roof (not touching). From a dead stop, you accelerate hard (a Ford 351, no doubt!). The balloon goes which way?

I agree, spin drift was more fun, but could be that I'm burned out on rotational motion, vector analysis, classical mechanics, yadda yadda for now. But hey, it's beer money!

Gig 'em Patron "ringknocker" Dave! Thought I sensed a large African field mouse.

Found a source for Lupita Mk4 sunshades if anyone's interested....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com >
The Physics Depot, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 16:12:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.177)


Bill Rogers,
I haven't bought the little 20"(AKA Puff the Magic Dragon)yet; but as soon as I can round up approx. $950 or so, the check and FFL will be heading to San Antonio. IMHO this little beauty would make a great short range LE rifle if properly scoped. It should work well on 'yotes too. Will let you know when I get it.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The breezy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 16:58:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.76)
You guys are too smart for your own good.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 20:11:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.69)
Hey Bravo
You mentioned the balloon in the car. Well it reminded me of something that I observed in my Jeep during winter. Jeeps have very poor heaters in them and it gets damned cold where I live. Anyway, it seems the heater directs more heat to the passenger's side than the driver's side. And when I make a right turn that heat moves to the driver's side. Would you explain that one to me? I'm not kidding.
Also still working on my M1-A getting the Brookfield mount attached.
I'm still a little hung up on the correct loctite to use on the NON-threaded areas. I was thinking of using the stuff for locking bearing races in housings, etc. A little slow getting this done. Spring planting, etc.
But anyway thanks to all who have helped me with this. (M1-A)

Torsten,
Could you you direct me to Waffen Frankonia on the internet. Everything I have come up with is in German language. Do they do mailorder? Or is it even legal for bullets?
 

Oh, one more thing. Is it an alright idea to use the 1" reducer bushings on 30mm scope rings. Or depending on manufacturer is it ok?

thanks again,
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 20:19:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.107)


Thanks to all who have e-mailed me with help/advice/opinions before. Have two more?'s today. 1)Anyone have any experience with the IOR Valdada 4X32 30MM tube?I do not understand the Druganov reticle either so any reading refernce on that would be appreciated too... 2)Short of the Badgers($$$), could anyone recomend a good(1moa) set of rings/base for reapability of zero?(Rem 700 SA) Thanks again.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 22:13:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)
Source for typing lessons would be a help as well.... :)
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 22:14:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)
Same as the balloon. Buoyancy and inertia fighting. With the balloon, the balloon is subject to inertia (goes backwards at take off) until the denser air goes to the rear (due to air's inertia), then the buoyancy of the helium sends the balloon where the air is less dense, the front of the car. In your case, the heat doesn't move, you move into the heat, which wants to continue it's linear course (inertia). Note: if you put it in a right hand continuous doughnut at speed (which I wouldn't suggest in a jeep!) you'll...... get cold again. The dense air stabilizes on your side, and the warm air being less dense will head to the passengers side.

For loctite, use the red, or grade CV adhesive/sealant if you NEVER want it to come off again. To prep the metal (since it's finished), you'll probably need some locquic primer. There are 3 schools of thought on balancing rotating assemblies (pistons, rods, and crank & such) with Mallory Metal. Weld 'em, peen 'em, and Loctite 'em. Loctite WORKS. If you ever want to remove it though, better go to yellow.

Mike: got the sling. Truth to tell, it's WAY better than I thought it would be. Now I know what everyone has been talking about. With this thing, I can loop up WAY faster than with my old leather thing! At the risk of someone calling this a gratuitous plug for Mike's sling, it has to be seen (and tried) to be appriciated. In my book, money WELL spent! I worried that it wouldn't be as "secure" as the leather, but it's GREAT! With it tight on my arm, no slippy, no strechy! Now if I could only get the M1Awesome back and put it on THAT rifle......

I'm gonna shut up for a while, seems to be becoming "Bravo Country" ;-)
Besides, I gotta win Ben Steins money, and bottle these 4 kegs.....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with poor public schools, forerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 22:49:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.240)


Bravo, glad you like the sling. I was looking over some past posts of yours on loading and noticed you like AA2520 Powder. I tried that in the M1A bit found pressure problems when the Air Temp went up, so I dumped it. Varget and IMR4064 work better for me with 175's.

Just sewing and waiting for my 338 and 50's to show up. I picked up a scope Swarovski makes for Barrett. It is a 10X with a 30mm tube and 42 Objective and 120 minutes of adjustments. Very nice piece. Super clear optics.

For the guys that have been asking. The scope test has been a huge deal. I will finish the article in mid June and ship it off to Tactical Shooter for possible print.

I will finish an article on the Barrett XM107 about the same time. That will be sent for possible print also. Very neat little 50 Cal. I think the Army made a good choice. For the guys that do not know it, Tony "Airborne" ,who posts here, is one of the main guys at Barrett. Nice guy also.

Damm we have guys from most manufactures and many schools that post here. Very lucky site!

I have one question for the bigt wigs. Why is all the Black Hawk Bashing going on on the Emporium? I have used products from many manufactures and buy nylon to make into slings. At the Hathcock Match they gave products, as I and several other manufactures did. That meant something to me. I did see that a whole lot of other manufactures did not give anything for the cause. Size of the company is not an excuse not to give to good causes. I am a one man show, so is Mil Dot Master and Slope Doper and we gave.If you guys are so pissed because Blackhawk has many items sewn in Korea strip off your Nike's and walk barefoot. I will bet you that many other tactical garment makers use nylon that is brought into the US from Foreign Lands. The Nylon I use is from the US but I have no idea where the buckles are made. I just know they are the best I could find for the slings. I do not think the Emporium is a place to bash someones products and promtes yours at the same time.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 23:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.176)


Greetings all !!!

It has been awhile since my last post...spring time brings foals and calves around here ya' know.

I just bought three Remington 7400 rifles, synthetic stocks, iron sights in my number two caliber...30.06.

Out of the box, they are suprisingly accurate for a WalMart "budget rifle. It most definitely ain't a long range precision marksmanship weapon.

Questions to any who might know ( since I do not have a clue about these rifles )...

Any tips to squeak a little more accuracy out of these rifles?

Any accessories available for these rifles?

By the way... the search has ended for the .300 w/m match round recipe. Any interested parties contact me... keep in mind that these are my findings and that you utilize them at your own risk...kinda a "caveat emptor" thing... also prepare for a little delay in response since I have a lot of chores to do with the new calves and foals ( more feces to cleanup... hey I got kids... they can ern their beans and bacon).

Glocker21 out
Hooch <glocker21@yahoo.com>
Rural, Montana, God fearin' USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 23:45:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.28.130.34)


Torsten - Got lots of trace, mirage, etc on video tape. Even got a spindel flying from a hit at 200 meter movers, students love it and it was pure luck. Use a decent camera, although I was given access to the professional model, and tape away. Another option is to tape through the 100mm team scope, I used this method in Saudi with my little Royal Guard students. Again you get trace and the bonus, on good days of mirage. This allows yo to read wind and watch the bullet miss when you read wrong. :)

Train Scenerio - 4.28 moa lead for 175gr 2600 fps M118LR. Lito is right, only the wind effect is counted, due to inertia the bullet travels with the train. If the train and jeep were in a vacum then there would be no lead required. It is the same effect of falling bombs from aircraft, only the air drag from the speed induced wind slows the bomb and prevents it from hitting the target dead on. The fun thing is that a 60 mph wind at 100 meters is squat, only 4.28 moa or 4.28 inches or 1.22 Mils for those who use, and love, the mil dot.

Planes, trains and Grizzely Bears!! Oh my!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 00:14:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.193)


Gooch - SS symbol:

Kim and I were arguing about that one today after reading it last evening. She too says that it was the nazi symbol. I of course being hard headed (and nieve) said - nah... it stands for scout sniper...

Okay - so Ken sits down and readies him self for a large plate of crow - and feels like a f*****g idiot for not associating the SS with the WWII origins.
 

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 01:02:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.21.143.4)


Bolt,

Yelling Gooch, Gooch, Gooch aint going to do you much good when Grizz is after you because this old boy believes in the old saying "I aint gotta out run the bear, I just gotta out run you."

You guys and this physics stuff.... GOtta be a law agin it.

Out
 

gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 01:19:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)


Mike: now HERE would be a great string. Appropriate M1A powders. The reason I ruled out Varget in the first place was our good friends at Sierra told me that it was a little too slow for the M1A with 175's. I've never seen any pressure problems with AA2520 (please, I'm not in any way doubting you!), what kind of temperatures was it running? This part of the country doesn't get too warm except a month or maybe two in the summer. The only reason I'm running AA2520 for this class is I have some left over and thought I would use it up. Had more of that than the VV135. Never looked at 4064 because of my "natural aversion" to extruded powders, and their associated metering problems. Next powder I figured I would try was the Winchester non-canister powder we went over months ago. THOUGHTS? THOUGHTS? Bueler? Bueler?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 01:48:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.201)
Gooch - Not Physics, just wind formula stuff, of course the new Sierra ballistics program helps with the wind.

Remember that it takes a heck of a pair of legs that lets a body take a beating! Either that or trip the other guy!

Mike on the new Barret, how is the grenade sound next to the ear? What is the approved technique for lefty shooters? How low can you get with the sucker? That mag looks awfully far back on the stock for any real low shooting. Does the mag on the ground effect cycling or feeding? What was your group soze at 1000? Inquiring minds want to know.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 02:04:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.197)


Chaps,

Now that the learned among you have straightened out those simple physical concepts for the learning impaired (I suppose prudence would dictate that I follow that with a smiley face) :) ; would anyone be kind enough to spare a moment to answer my query ref mounting a scope extremely low
-will half a millimetre clearance between objective and barrel cause any problems?
Thanks

Next, for those who want a theoretical problem to debate, here's one that I've never been able to adequately explain to myself:

At small arms engagement ranges; shooting up or downhill you hold lower than you would if shooting horizontally BUT at artillery engagement ranges you 'hold' higher (ie you ADD the angle of sight to the tangent elevation). Can anyone explain that?!

Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 10:50:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.78)


Hooch and 7400 Remingtons
 

Mmmm, basicaly, what you get is what you get with these guns. The older Reminton gas guns used to be tuneable to a degree and there were gizzies avaialble that could tune how the forend and gas system fitted up, but npt for the newer guns, at least that I have seen. If you are getting reasonable accuacy out of the things then be happy, 'cause they are generaly about 2 MOA shooters in my experience. Also, the gas system is remarkably primitive in these guns so loading flexibility is in the "not very" class-a good stiff load of IMR 4350 can absolutly wreck one. Been there, done that, delivered the bad news to the customer myself. And keep that chamber clean-just a little pitting can be fatal.

Me? I bought a 7600. More accurate, more reliable and dosent care what powder you throw at it.
 

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 11:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.213.119)


Rick B,
Being able to shoot left-handed has been an eyeopener on the 107. With the 5rd mag, you can get almost as low with it as just about anything. ALMOST. With the bullpup design a lefty will have a few problems to over come. You will have to slightly lift your head to cycle the bolt.You can put the mag on the ground to get a psuedo-tripod if you want. It will not hurt a thing. Went to Aberdeen to shoot a few weeks ago, got consistant 8-11 inch groups with Mk211. Raufoss isn't the greatest stuff in the world as far as accuracy goes, velocities are WAY to erattic.
Don't know if I'm desensitized to the blast after 8 years of 50's, double hearing protection is a must. Don't rely on the electronic ones on their own. Tried a few different ones, they didn't last. If you must use 'em, turn 'em off.

AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 11:47:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.119.162)


Matt...
Nope!! That silly 1/2 mm will give you plenty.
----
On the other... it's because of the scale of the shooting, the way the target is ranged, and the position of the shooter (or artillery).

At the ranges that the rifle shooter is engaging, the shot is point to point, that is... you are shooting "AT" the target, and making minor adjustments to compensate for angle, and you are part of the angle probem... you are in the vally (bad), or up on the hill (good :)...

But with artillery, you deal with very high arcs, and very loooong ranges, so your ranging tables are based on a flat plateau... if you are ranged for a target at 10,000 meters, the fall of shot will intersect the ground (or your level) at 10,000mtrs... but it will also hit closer targets that are higher, and further targets that are lower.

Take a paper, and mark "G" (gun) on the left side, and 10" away, draw "X" for the target... and squiggle some sort of arc to the target.
Call that 10,000mtrs.
Now, put a new target ("NX") 1" above the old target.
If you squigle a new arc that will intersect the new target, you find that it hits the plateau about 1.5" behind the old target.

So the reason is... that the artillery ranging "sees" both targets at 10,000mtrs, but the one up on the slopes, needs a 11,500mtr fall of shot to strike it.

How-some-ever... If you had a mountain howitzer, and were slugging it out with the enemy at 2000mtrs, and you were in the vally (bad), or on the peak (good :)... you would be making your compensations the same way as the rifleman.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 12:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.112)


Gee Matt,
Thought every kid on the street knew that one. (arty)
And I thought I was the only learning impaired.
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 13:23:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.87)
Chaps,

OK! OK! I give people abuse for being learning impaired and immediately word a question badly; I'll try to clarify:

I'll use a 3-4-5 triangle to illustrate my point:

a gun on a beach (altitude 0) wishes to engage a mountain target (altitude 3000) which is at a grid reference 4 km inland (therefore at MAP range 4 km)from which one can work out an initial firing elevation.

One then elevates the gun so that it is pointing at the target (that is apply the angle of sight)and then further elevate it by the elevation obtained earlier (thus I've pointed the gun at the target -like a rifle- and then further elevated in order for it to reach the MAP range measured -unlike a rifle)

BUT (as 'lito correctly asserts):

If this target is at altitude 3000m the actual range to the target is along a 5km hypotenuse (the SLANT range) and therefore we factor in some extra elevation to allow for this extra 1 Km (ie we 'HOLD HIGH')

Conversely:

A rifleman in a valley bottom takes aim at a hill top target (ie automatically applies angle of sight) further applies the elevation for the targets actual range (ie he has measured / estimated the targets actual SLANT range straightaway) BUT then holds low!

AAAAAAAAAAAGH! Having just typed all that; it's all flashed clearly into place! 'lito you're absolutely on the money when you state that it's all a question of scale -how often do arty engage targets at angles of sight of 30 degrees or more -answer: not very! (except -as you again state- mountain guns)

Well I've always said that ritual public humiliation is good for the soul -trouble is that that was self-inflicted!

I shall shut up and join the ranks of the learning impaired!
(You've got to feel sorry for my students!)

I am not worthy, a sorry excuse for.......etc.
Matt
 

Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 15:29:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.75)


Hey folks, think girlfriend may be interested in comiing to the match with me. Anybody else taking significant others?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 16:56:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.188.76)
The Remington trigger adjusting article has be put back. For those of you in Rio Linda, just wait a few days, and pictures will be added!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 19:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.3)


Ken; I would need you to pass me the wishbone on that crow! I have seen that and thought it was a Scout Sniper too. Are we sure we're all talking about the same thing? SS. Dunno I'm sure they know of what they speak KIm, and the Goochman. Really a strang one.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 20:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Have any of you usesd the RCBS X die, if so what did you think of the little critter.
Stagger
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, IN, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 23:28:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.61)
Bill R.

THe deal on the SS thing is that many Scout-Snipers use the nazi looking "SS" as a Scout-Sniper symbol out of ignorance as to its origin.

The National Guard Sniper School used to have an unofficial sniper challenge coin with the "SS" on its back (prior to my days, I assure you). A Special Forces Soldier who had attended the course had one and challenged another soldier in a bar over in Africa somewhere. Someone took exception to the coin and we soon had a top level Department of the Army investigation on our laps. I was at the school by this time and was ordered to undergo "senistivity" training since I was cadre at the school. I responded by stating that I was already sensitive and thats why I prefered a head shot so my target wouldn't have to go through life with a colostomy bag. (That went over big).

We used Norm Chandlers books to show that the "SS" was currently being used as a sniper logo in the USMC and other units and no connection to nazism was intended. HOWEVER, as I stated in an earlier post our viability was damaged and our command had more reasons to doubt our sanity.

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 23:56:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.184)


All,

Well, got the K&M Services neck trimmer all set up. Works like a champ. I was running about .003-.005 run out with my finished handloads. Now it's more like .001 or less. The nice thing is that I onlt have to do it once. I saw a post sayng that Varget is too slow for an M1A, I disagree. It burns very close to what IMR-4064 does. I've used Varget in my M1A and it shoots and cycles fine.
 

A note on Nosler J4 competition 168s.

I bought a box of these bullets a few months ago and I was less than thrilled with them. The Nosler company claims they are as good as SMKs or better. Well I am here to say that in my rifle they are not. I tried them in my M1A, custom remington and my .300 Win mag sendero. The best groups were marginally better than my worst groups with Sierras. When seated the display a lot of runout where SMKs do not. There were definite blemishes on the slugs ie. folds in the jacket at the ogive and some bullets themselves were showing as much as .003" of runout!
I've tried many different kinds of domestic brand match bullets and find that the Sierras reign as king. Speer 168s are however almost as good as SMKs but they have about 2 fliers out of a box. I personally think that Speer 168s are very unappreciated, they are interchangable with the loads I use with Sierras with only a micrometer to show the actual difference in group size.
My only regret is that Speer has discontinued their 190gr match bullet before I could evaluate it. Hornady's 168gr HPBT was the last place in performance. Best group was .993" at 100yds.
Has anyone tried Lapua match bullets? I understand that they are very good. They are very difficult to come by as well. I think that Sierras will be topping all of my match loads for the long while.

Oh, the best group with the Noslers was .679". The best group with the Sierras was .168" this is impotrant for me since 100yds is just a load development distance. It allows me asses bullets for 300yds and beyond.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 03:35:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.124)


Karma: I didn't say that Varget was too slow for the M1A, I said that I ruled it out (and therefore never purchased pound #1) based on the advice from the techs (forgot now which one, it's been MONTHS now) at Sierra. Told them my application, he said too slow, so I never tried it. I'd be REALLY interested though in your impulse velocity (subjective of course) and your muzzle velocity. Er, strike that. Found out the hard way that muzzle velocities are calculated. Make that a 10 yard velocity ;-) Don't want you messing up the sky screens on an Oehler, like I did. Maybe we caught someone in an uneducated opinion?

As for Nossler's, I found them to be better than Speer, almost identical to Hornady's in my rifle, not the worst, not the best. Guess this just proves something Andre (with the ') was saying. Best in one rifle isn't necessarily best in another. This is only with the 168's, never tried any of their other J4 offerings. Gonna try the Lapua's as soon as possible though. My previous hi-power partner SWORE by them, but bought Sierra's, which I agree are the KING until I find something better. Gonna try those Bergers too when I get the chance.

Please note that I'm not setting myself up as an expert, just passing on what info I got from "the experts". Hey, we ALL have to get our info from somewhere! I figure it's their bullets, might as well ask them. BTW, he also said that the bearing surface on the 175 is actually slightly shorter than the 168. Got the numbers that were quoted if interested.

Mr. Gooch: This troubles me greatly. To think that there are current American troops and soldiers that either don't know or actively WANT to be associated with the Waffen SS. What percentage do you figure KNOWS what they're doing versus those that just think it looks cool, and have never had any reason to think it might be an almost 50 year old symbol? Ignorance I can most always forgive, socialism is another animal all together, and one that should be terminated with extreme prejudice on sight! I should note that I do not in any way equate German with Nazi. We've had our "bad apples" too, current administration and goons not withstanding. God help us since we haven't learned our history lessons.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Welcome to "Bravo country", part of the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 04:55:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.130)


does anyone know of a civilian sniper school that does not limit to just law enforcement and military? my friend is interested.
peter <18c@excite.com>
norwell, ma, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 05:04:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.214.84.35)
i'm a little confused about the pre-requisites for entering the u.s army sniper school. it states that you need to have 20/20 vision or vision correctable to 20/20. i definately have seen quite a few snipers wearing glasses, but wouldn't this be a liability for the army and the soldier if the glasses were ever lost. why do they allow this? don't get me wrong, i agree, being a contact wearer myself, i'm just confused.
 

peter <18c@excite.com>
norwell, ma, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 05:05:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.214.84.35)


Well, after waiting more than a year and a half to get a high power rifle licence,
After waiting six months to get a Savage 116 (for the price I payed in Portugal would buy me a top grade Winchester 70 or a Remington 700 VSSF in the US - and heavy barrels are considered an absurd idea by our "gun dealers"),
Finnaly, I mounted my Leupold 4.5-14 40mm mil-dot Tactical and while "zeroing" I found the reticle to be OFF-SQUARE (the horizontal reticle line makes with the vertical more than 3 degrees!).
I cannot accept that a scope from a company with such "prestige" can make an mistake like this, specially on a Tactical scope (and for me USD$600 is a lot of money!).
I am not a sniper but I really need to act like one since I am only allowed to purchase 100 rds a year!
And since I also use a lowly USD$170 Bushnell Trophy that has endured a lot (a lot!) and the reticle and adjustments are still fine, it makes me think a lot.
I think I will try IOR and buy a 4x Hunter (etched reticle- squared I hope) for my L.E. No 4 Mk1., before I upgrade.
Please forgive me for my whining (and bad spelling) but I had to let it out.

Luso.
 
 

Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 08:42:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.65.14.68)


Gooch'; amazing how things can get out of hand. Interesting story.

Luso; Not sure what your having the problem with on your 4.5X14X40
just want to say that's real rare to have any kind of problem with
one of them. Why not try to resolve it with Leupold? They are quite
good about their lifetime warranty. IF the scope is new there might
be a dealer involved in this somewhere. IF I had a customer with a
bad Leupold I'd trade it out with him knowing that Leu would fix it.
Their warranty is transferable. Maybe you should tell us more about
the prooblem, never heard of such a thing as an unsquare ret. in a
Leupold. What is the visual effect? Where are the adjustments u/d
setting in reference to their maximum positions? are you talking
error between dots or overall length of horiz vs. vert.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:10:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Just a quick post to congratulate all involved on the 'unusual' doping quizzes. I have to admit the space station thing has twisted my poor little brain so I would appreciate seeing a solution.

I have a question regarding painting up kit. I know that these sorts of questions are often asked and hope I don't bore anyone. Reference has been made on the site to 'bowflauge', however this is not available over here (not allowed to hunt with bows for starters !). Any recommendations for normal paint types and suitable primers would be appreciated.

Cheers, Dom
Dom <LethbridgeDP@cf.ac.uk>
Cardiff, UK - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:43:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.251.0.8)


If the horizontal line of the reticle is used to calculate wind deflection, lead estimation and to avoid canting, and if this "horizontal" line is not "horizontal"(!), how can use my scope to the fullest?
I will send it to Leupold, but such an elementar mistake like this should have not happened.
- And the scope is centered "a la Major Plaster".
And believe me that I am not the only one with this kind of problem with Leupold (and I am not pleased to say this).
I know I can make good shots (I usually do that with worst stuff) with a crooked reticle, so long as I have a steady aiming point!

Cheers,

Luso.

Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:53:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.65.14.68)


Once again we fall back inti polotics country;

On the Waffen SS thing, I went through a similar experiance that Mista Googh went through with Command stepping in and telling us what naughty boys we were, the individuals in one of out teams that were using this logo knew well what it meant, but they thought , hey, it's a cool logo.
Needless to say, our CO put their balls in a wringer and we had to have the Battalion wide "Briefing" on using the SS logo.

Thus you have a political issue that surrounds a group of people who are already looked at with intense scrutiny.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:59:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.160)


Kevin,
Bill R. is right and I have become a fan of the short tactical rifle also. PeteR and I had kicked around the idea of a short 260 and he had tried to talk Remington into making one to try out, but to no avail. I had a barrel go bad on my custom gun so I cut it down (From the chamber end) to 22" . I could have went with 20" but to me 20" is to short and 22" handles just as well and I think balances better, but this is just my opinion. Pete and I had thought the 260 would be ideal for this since you only need to push a 140gr bullet 2600fps to stay supersonic at 1000yds. What I found was that cutting the barrel down form 26" to 22" made a great handling rifle and it went from a .6 gun to a .4 to .5 gun. I bumped the powder one grain and I was back to within 25fps of what it was at 26". I now have a rife that, with scope and mounts, weighs just 10lbs and handles and shoots great. I have not went to 1000yds yet but will soon since this is the final test for it. I have shot it out to 700yds and the dials are the same as when I was shooting it as a 26". I am a big fan of the 6.5s now and think they offer the best of both worlds when it comes to long range shooting. I love my 308s but they fall behind once you cross the 500yd line esp. in wind drift. I like to joke now about how much better I am at reading the wind but its the 6.5 bullet that makes up for my "Lack" of judgement(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 13:39:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Pat,

Thanks for the credits on the Model 700LTR .260 Rem attempt.

Really its you, TorF, Torsten, Jeff A., Bill(CHOP THAT BARREL!)Rogers, that got me interested in the idea. I still feel that it would probably be the "Cats Meow" for a Universal Tactical/Hunting rifle.

A SUPER balance of weight, power and pinpoint accuracy.

Ahhh we can only dream.................

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 14:46:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.46)


A couple of questions:
Any thoughts on the million mom march and MASSIVE media coverage and what it might mean for us civies?
The Houston paper covered two pages for the march and one 4x4" block on page 8, i think, for 2nd amendment supporters. Gee, how unusual!

Has anyone bought a copy of Stewart Wilsons long range sim. It looks like a great basic sim trainer and maybe just what I need to get a handle on this mil dot thing. I thought I understood it till I used the l/r demo. God, I must be the dummest brick in the yard! ARRRRRRGGG

Can they actually sell that sim in Kalifornia....and get away with it.

Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Republic of Texas, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 14:49:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.109.146)


Guys,

I have an ancient RCBS trigger pull guage thats not the most accurate thing in the world.
Any recomendations on what to go with to upgrade, make, model, and where to buy would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 15:09:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.83.118.152)


Dan,

Get the Chatillon weight gauge in 12 lb. capacity through Brownells. The are Expensive, but well worth every penny. Mines worked super for over 15 years!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 15:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.59)


About a year ago I jumped on the moly bandwagon and was shooting a.308 with moly coated 168 GR MK's when I noticed my accuracy fell off some. After using the moly I would average about 1 MOA.(After initial break-in with copperjacketed, I was getting .6 to .7 MOA.) I then read some things on this site and others saying some not too good things about moly and decided to switch back to uncoated bullets. I cleaned as best as possible and my accuracy from a formerly accurate rifle hovered around 1 MOA. with uncoated bullets. Fearing I had screwed up a good barrel I decided from the negative things I had read about moly buildup, that I would need to clean the bore more agressively. I obtained some J-B bore paste and used it according to instructions and found that after removing a ton of moly there was an enormous amount of copper underneath. I removed the copper from the barrel with shooters choice and went to the range. I was pleasantly suprised to see my old accuracy return, shooting groups in the .6's at 200 yds. My question is this...is J-B paste safe to use on a regular basis like every cleaning, or is it best used to clean once fowling has deteriorated accuracy? I read that it will polish the bore where brushes will scratch...Any one with practical experience please advise.
Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
South Central, MI, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 17:27:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.45.201.182)
Went out shooting yesterday shooting 700-900m w/ a friends stock .308 700 Police w/ B&L Tac. Started the day making excuses - no zero's 'cuz its not my gun, factory ammo etc . Only three of us were shooting 'sniper' the rest standard fullbore - iron sighted 30" barrelled guns most in 6mmBR -. Well I shoot the best of us three (by one point) @ 192/14V (out of 200pts/40rds)*a couple bad wind calls. Some of these iron sighted guys got upset with 200/37V.
Here I felt undergunned w/ a stock PSS compared to the AICS'd and custom barreled 700s my friends had and we got kicked by iron.

Hanging Head in Shame

Kevin <kevmich@cadision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 17:43:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.131.114)


Str8,
I wouldn't use JBs with every cleaning. I think they recommend it around every couple of hundred if you get fouling problems. Its a great tool to use for heavy fouling and sometimes you will need to start the breakin process all over again after using it. I have always noticed after using it my first couple of trips to the range result in a lot bluer patches until the rifle settles in again.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:15:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Does anyone have first hand experience with Sako TRG-21/41 series rifles in 308 or 300win? If so, and you would be willing to share your experiences, good or bad, i would appreciate it. Please email your comments to the address provided.

Thanks.
jonathan <jgleason@gunder.com>
- Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:18:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)


Off topic information regarding bullet choices for 308 hunitng round.

My Rem 700 pss is going to be pressed into service to kill two adult male wild boar that have been destroying an enormous number of seedlings on a piece of private agricultural property in Northern California. I have been issued the necessay depredation permit by the DFG.

I normally fire Federal Gold Medal thorugh this rifle to good effect (average of .7 MOA.) The barrel has been set back and rechambered, and the action trued. The rifle is otherwise unmodified.

Any insights into a more appropriate round for use on medium sized (estimated at 2575lb) game with thin skin and heavy bones appreciated. Of particular interest would be any information regarding Nosler ballistic tips (recomended by a local guide.)

Thanks in advance.
 

yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:54:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)


forgive the horrible typing. The pigs are estimated to weigh 275 lbs, not 2575.

Thanks.

My Rem 700 pss is going to be pressed into service to kill two adult male wild boar that have been destroying an enormous number of seedlings on a piece of private agricultural property in Northern California. I have been issued the necessary depredation permit by the DFG.

I normally fire Federal Gold Medal through this rifle to good effect (average of .7 MOA.) The barrel has been set back and rechambered, and the action trued. The rifle is otherwise unmodified.

Any insights into a more appropriate round for use on medium sized (estimated at 2575lb) game with thin skin and heavy bones appreciated. Of particular interest would be any information regarding Nosler ballistic tips (recomended by a local guide.)

Thanks in advance.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:57:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)


I'd stick some A-max's 168 gr probably if that's the weight you been
usin in those cases with the same powder. Assumin you ain't too set on eatin them hogs. Just passin though here on blue monday! adios!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 20:55:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Yonathan: Man if that's a 2575 lb boar - you might want to negotiate a deal with them.... :)

Ken

Ken <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 23:52:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.21.143.4)


Yonatan
Be careful of what kind of bullet you use and the OAL. If your barrel has been set back, hunting bullets may jam into the rifling. You may have to shorten the OAL which may cause pressure problems due to less case volume. Work up the load carefully. A 275lb. pig is a tough critter. Keep your range close and use a good bullet like Nossler Partition or Swift A Frame. The 165 Sierra hollow point may work if you can get close. It roughly has the same profile as the 168 Match King and should work in your rifle. Check things to be sure.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <t18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 00:14:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.185)


Kevin - Why are you hanging your head in shame? The guys were shooting a weapon designed to do just that one thing. Try getting them to hump that sucker into the valley and then set up in a pouring rain storm, mud and all, then have them shoot that sucker at dusk. Now see who out shoots whom. Of course there is no way they will drag that weapon into the woods and do that for fear of ruining it. That is the problem with some of the weapons being put out as "sniper" weapons. You can have very accurate, or you can have a fieldable weapon that does not break when you look at it sideways. Me I'll take the one that will not break and will still punch a whole in my intended target. May not be an "X", but dead is dead. Besides sometimes a good wound will cause a target rich environment. :)

Str8 - I agree with Pat on that JB stuff. Great once in a while or when for some reason the barrel shoots like crap. Not for everyday use, think in terms of valve GRINDING compound. Not as coarse but just as damaging over the long haul if over used.

Peter - The qualifications on correctable to 20/20 allows many a good shooter and fieldcrafter to be snipers. It is used only as a "discriminator", now that is a non PC word! If I have two snipers of equal qualification and everything is equal, one wers glasses and the other does not, then the one that does not gets picked. That is what is meant by the discriminator non PC word. Yes it does discriminate but I wasnt the "best chance" of the mission being accomplished, not if I hurt someones feelings. However, most of the guys wearing glasses know it is a discrimnator, just as smoking, devil handed (lefties for you guys who think in the PC terms), color blindness, to an acceptable degree, cross dominance, stuttering, and any other problem that does not stop but may hinder. I know of several individuals that are left handed, smoking fools that wear glasses and never have a cup of coffee beyond hands length, that will put a hurt on you at 1000 and not bat an eye.

Gooch - Trust me the SF guy knew and was being a butt head. Should have got his butt kicked for coining with that symbol. We are drilled over and over again about what is and is not acceptable "symbols" for public and overseas consumption. That sensitivity training is a semi annual thingy for us. Cripes it can be boring after the 6th to 7th time through.

Time to cut and run, have fun guys and hold hard.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 00:44:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.184)


Yonatan,

I would tend to go along with Bill Rogers on the 168gr. A-Max. Since they are boars I don't imagine you'll be able to eat them due to the strongness of the meat. Should be good for pepperoni! I don't know how the thickness of their skull compares to a domestic hog; but most of the farmers around here use a .22LR and pop them between the eyes. Of course they aren't worrying about tusks and nasty dispositions.

Good hunting,
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The springtime Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 01:01:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.94)


I'm interested in reading more about the use of SS insignia in todays military. Does anyone know if it was only Marine scout snipers or was this done in Army units as well. Not a Nazi just interested. Anyone have pictures of the symbols being worn? Were they worn covertly or out in the open. This was just in the field I'm assuming,Correct?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Don
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 02:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.177.58.65)
Has anyone else had problems getting ont AR15.com? I have tried the URL, the IP address, a "ping" and a "trace route" no luck. I keep getting timed out when I try to check it with ping/tracert, url get page not available error. You realy computer savy folks know what all I tried here. Someone else try it so I know I'm not nuts.

Thanks
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
lookin' for a computer job, in south west PA, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 03:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.233)


Rick: I'll try to keep that in mind. I kept trying to tell myself that there rounds at 3000+ were just bucking the wind better than the 175 MKs. No one except the army guys were into humping your kit in from the main road. I think it would cut down on the golf bag metality that some are developing (It is supposed to be a military event - but I guess so is your NRA Hi-power)

I have been using JB in my old M4, my M4A1, C7's and my 700 (plus my Browning P-35 etc.) I was always using Sweets 7.62 then JB then Sweets - and was having no problems that I noticed. - Not a Good Idea I take it? I must then appoligize for the bum steer I gave Str8shot.
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 04:25:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.130.43)


GENT'S,
You all being mostly LE/MIL, probably already thought of this if you have been so inclined. In reference to the gentleman from TX, on the Stewart Wilson sim ,To use this as a training aid, instead of using STEWART's load data, sub your own. Works either way and helps you when you go to the real deal field.just a thought( one of the few passing these day's).......LOL.....tshoes (also, a TEXICAN!).
TSHOES <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 04:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.27)
I HAVE NEVER OWNED A SAVAGE RIFLE (I'M A LONG TIME REMINGTON FAN) BUT I PERSONALLY WATCHED A LOCAL LAW OFFICER WIN A MATCH LAST WEEKEND WITH A SAVAGE MODEL 110 TACTICAL 4.5X14X40 LEUPOLD MIL-DOT BEAT 14 OTHER OFFICERS USING RIFLES 3 TIMES THE PRICE OF HIS SAVAGE, ALL OTHER RIFLES WERE IN .308 AND THE SAVAGE WAS IN 30.06 AND I WONDER WHY HE SELECTED 30.06, I NEVER DID ASK?
COOLDADDY <cdb32271@bellsouth.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 05:35:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.215.99)
I HAVE NEVER OWNED A SAVAGE RIFLE (I'M A LONG TIME REMINGTON FAN) BUT I PERSONALLY WATCHED A LOCAL LAW OFFICER WIN A MATCH LAST WEEKEND WITH A SAVAGE MODEL 110 TACTICAL 4.5X14X40 LEUPOLD MIL-DOT BEAT 14 OTHER OFFICERS USING RIFLES 3 TIMES THE PRICE OF HIS SAVAGE, ALL OTHER RIFLES WERE IN .308 AND THE SAVAGE WAS IN 30.06 AND I WONDER WHY HE SELECTED 30.06, I NEVER DID ASK?
COOLDADDY <cdb32271@bellsouth.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 05:36:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.215.99)
Food for thought gentlemen. This post has no other objective but to gauge the attitudes in this forum.

Situation :
Me and a friend of mine are in constant conflict regarding the choice of the components that make a good sniper rifle. Those components (that we are arguing about) are not in the caliber and the barrel lenghts, etc, but on the actual cycles that the weapon and the shooter have to go through to successfully fire the weapon in combat conditions. Following is a typical exchange of arguments :

Him : Bolt action
Me : Semi-auto

Him : I would like to see you crawling around to pick up your brass after you fire so as not to leave any trace of your presence
Me : Wow... that is a wonderful ghillie suit you made for yourself. Try moving your arm when working the bolt to reload your rifle under that thing when everyone has trained scopes/binoculars all over the place looking for you. Remember human eye mechanics (locking on movement) ? Try that and I am sure that somebody will oblige to send a sixpack of high-arc, parabolic trajectory 155mm budweiser your way.

Him : Bolt actions shoot better groups that autoloaders.
Me : I prefer to have the option (and probably never use it but still like to have it) of being able to plant 20 .308 caliber rounds in something the size of a human heart within 28 seconds at a range of 700 meters than being able to fire 5 rounds in 30 seconds in something the size of a human eyeball at the same range. There comes a point when we are talking about groupings that gain nothing more that bragging rights with no real world difference (talking about purely military application here, not LE/SWAT situations).

Him : Bolt actions are more durable.
Me : For the number of years that I was issued an H&K G3/SG1 in my home country in Europe, the thing fired after being immersed in water, sand, mud and rotting foliage and never had a misfire.. ever ! There were a couple of times, in field exercises, that I had to sink 3/4 of my body in a puddle, hold a low and wide bush between my thighs and another one next to my head to avoid detection with the rifle cozily resting in 9 inches of mudwater. Guess what, your point is void.

Most of the times, my ending argument is that however you look at it, the objective is the same: Plant a nail on a wall. The best hammer is the one that you know how to use best to make the most efficient possible job with it while in your hands.

In any case. The arguments go on and on and.... on....

Any late night takers that have the time and inclination to care to philosophise about the issue and throw in their 2 cents ?

AresP
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 06:22:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)


Earl,

KK G - 3 A 3 conversion to Semi !

now the other way around is the more common question ! ; )
 

I have seen simple spot weld´s on the outside of the trigger housing, but if you would take out the trip bar , the one on the right side of the trigger tub, that should do it permanantly. You may have to install a small washer or just cut the top portion of the lever off, grind it to shape and leave it in position as a spacer.

To be 100 % sure also remove the metal trip in the bolt carrier bottom that trips the sear with a dremel tool.

Now if full auto is Rock n´Roll, I would say happy Hip Hop Earl !

t
"Ende"

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 11:01:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.207)


Rick, no chance to shoot the new 50's yet. I will give a full report back when I return from New Mexico. I imagine they will have the same blast as my other 50's, not bad to shoot but dont stand to the side.

Semi versus Bolt gun: Dude why not just blast with a tank and call that sniping. If you can not do it with one round you are not sniping you are blasting. If you think you are going to keep troops off you with a 20 round semi you are dreaming. They see, or find you and you are gone. trick is not being caught not blasting. I have shot all the semi snipers I could get my hands on and none will shoot as well and/or as long as a good bolt gun. Even that 1200.00 US PSG1 can not keep up with a decent 2000.00 bolt gun, plus it weighs as much as a LAW Rocket! Enough of this.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 14:05:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)


Ares, once again if you're arguing the capabilities of tools (whether they be hammers, golf clubs, or sniper systems) in military/LE terms, you MUST go back to METT-TP.

M - What's my Mission?

E - What Equipment do I have available?

T - What Threat do I face?

T - How much Time do I have available?

T - What Terrain do I have to cross/hide in or behind/ or control?

P - Politics: what happens if I screw this up on CNN? Does my country/city/department fail if I miss or just wing the bad guy? What innocent dies? Is it my own family? Is it me and my spotter?

There is no fixed, perfect solution, or single, do-it-all weapon. The moment you say "That's it, that's the perfect machine," someone like Andy Webber or a hundred other real techy gunsmiths makes something just a little bit cheaper, better, lighter, sexy, or more accurate.

Snipers are supposed to be THINKERs and TEAM MEMBERs. There will always be the very, very few singletons like Hathcock, Mawhinney, and Waldron, but I'd venture the best teams are the shooter-spotter pairs that read wind, shoot, and mutually protect. And, by the way, most military guys shoot what they're issued (some get issued more tools from which to choose from to meet the missions they've been tasked with).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 14:47:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


A QUESTION FOR THOSE WHO TRULY KNOW (PLEASE, NO ARM-CHAIR EXPERTS WHO AREN'T REALLY SURE): I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH A NIGHT-VISION/LASER MANUFACTUROR/DEALER. I HAD INQUIRED ABOUT GETTING AN IR (INVISIBLE) LASER. I WAS TOLD THAT THEY COULDN'T SELL ONE TO ME. I SAID "COMPANY POLICY?", HE REPLIED "NO, THE LAW - I CAN ONLY SELL IR LASERS TO FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT. NO ONE ELSE, NOT EVEN STATE AND OTHER COPS". I ASKED WHAT LAW OUTLAWED SUCH SALES, AS ALL NVDs AND LASERS ARE NOT RESTRICTED. HE SAID THAT IT WAS AN FDA LAW/PROHIBITION. WHEN I POINTED OUT THAT ONE DEALER HAD BEEN SELLING IR LASERS, HE REMARKED THAT THE DEALER WAS ABOUT TO BE BUSTED FOR ILLEGAL SALES OF A RESTRICTED ITEM AND THAT THOSE WHO PURCHASED SAID IR LASERS WOULD HAVE THEM CONFISCATED. TO THE POINT: THIS SOUNDS LIKE UTTER BULLSHIT TO ME. IS IT?
Chopper <Chopper124@aol.com>
CT, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 15:17:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.66.148.70)
Mike: I knew you sniped with heavy calibers, but a LAW rocket? Suppose it's allowed in LAW enforcement ;-)

Now to Mike AND Patron Dave: I'm gonna "what if" you here. What if the semi auto weighed about the same as a M-40 full up, and delivered 1/2 MOA? I realize that 1/2 MOA isn't what you guys call great, but I would assume that it's passable, about like a PSS?

Not that I disagree, what I have I call a "spotters rifle", and think that it's almost perfect for that purpose. Besides, it's easier to look for a sniper (with a bolt gun) to team with than a spotter.

And while we're at names here, I'm gonna state a "policy" of mine. A M1A is by definition a Springfield, but I hate calling it that. If a hypothetical friend lost his testicles in a terrible industrial accident, I wouldn't start calling him Alice. Therefore, just because there isn't a selector on my M1A, I'm gonna call it a M-14 type or more specifically a M-25, if I'm not calling her by her name.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 17:55:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


Chopper
I know FCC regulates lasers as regard to power and that may be what your dealer is referring to. That is the main reason civilians don't get the cool laser rangefinders the military has. The only thing the FDA does with lasers is medical related as far as I know.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 18:43:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.5.16)


Chopper,
IR Lasers are restricted to LE and Military units. They recognize that it's sort of an unfair advantage to have an invisible aiming device that only NVG will pick up. It was true what the manufacturer was saying, it's a federal regulation but I'm not sure under who's authority. My best guess would be BATF. It's probably also true that a person selling these things is looking to get busted eventually.

If you're looking into NV sights for rifles count your blessings you aren't in Ca. Here it is illegal to have any night vision device on a firearm that projects it's own invisible light source, like the mounted IR lights designed to extend range or allow use in complete darkness. Ca. law from what I understand only allows scoped NV rifles to be completely star light dependent. A local gun dealer lost his FFL license a couple years back because he was selling restricted NV scopes that had IR sources built into the sight design.

For civ. use the FFC limits lasers to 5milliwatts I believe. The FCC puts them in to a Class order with civilian stuff being ClassIII type lasers. When selecting a visible laser go for whatever has the lowest wavelength as it will be more sensitive to the eye than the higher wavelength units. A 635nm wavelength seems to be the lowest I've ever seen a company go and it is said to appear to be 10 times brighter than a 675-680nm wavelength of equal power level. Getting up into the 830nm area and the laser goes into the IR spectrum if I remember correct.

What is really interesting is some time ago while I was surfing some scientific sites on the web I found a laser kit designed to make a green laser. It used what they called a wavelength "halfing" technique that got the wavelength down into the mid 300nm length for a nice green laser. The unit wasn't one of the gas lasers that take up a lot of space either, it was a pen type unit that was solid state. The price of the stupid thing was about 400 dollars or more though and making it into a weapon sight would be a trick I'm sure. The whole reason I entertained the idea of making it into a weapon sight is the fact that if a 635nm appears to be 10 times brighter than a 680nm at 3mv then what does a 350-375nm laser look like at 3mv? It would probably be a true daylight laser. I can't find the darn thing anymore though, it's been about 2 years since I saw the laser kit and I haven't seen it in recent attempts trying to locate it again.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, CA , USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 19:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.218.50)


Ares - I have used both in real world situations and there is no way I would carry a semi "sniper missed it again" gun as the primary sniper weapon system. ALL of your friends points are valid. Brass is thrown very badly with the semi autos, your point of bolt manipulation is done every class by every student that goes through our course. The observers are within 200 meters(or closer), and a walker is within 3 meters when alot of them manipulate the bolt. The instructors are on constant watch for the students and they manipulate the bolt once in position and we miss the movement. Bolt manipulation is less of a problem then that ghillie suit getting caught in the action of the semi. Seen that happen and THAT will get the budweiser on the way more than bolt manipulation. Bolt guns are locked up through out the firing process with no bleed off of gases to operate the weapon. The semi, especially in a field environment, will bleed at different rates as the weapon becomes dirty just being in the field environment. The groups open up and the zero changes. NO SEMI I have ever seen will put rounds into a heart sized target at the ranges you speak. The wind alone will preclude that little activity even with bolt guns. That is why the record is not 200 with 20x and been done by everyone every day at every competition. Even that X ring is bigger than the heart! As far as the durability of the weapon, we speak in terms of hitting your target not it just firing. That weapon you just talked of may have fired grandly, but it would not put all of its rounds into the heart of a target 400 meters away, 300 meters away, and doubtful at 200 meters. The semi autos have a major problem with zero changes, barrel harmonic changes, and "all the little moving parts" changes. All conspire to screw up the system. Guess what YOUR points are void. The semi will never make a real good primary sniper weapon system. They ahve accuracy problems IN THE FIELD. This is where many of the arm chair, paper shooters have their problem in understanding why a weapon that can shoot excellently on the range or in a couple days, no nights, sniper comp. The weapons fall apart in the accuracy department, then you do need all 20 -30 rounds to hit your target. Now THAT will bring in the Arty faster than bolt manipulation. Now wuld I like getting in a fire fight with my bolt gun, no, but then again I would rather not screw up so bad that I would need to. What happens when you are in that situation, we used CAR-15s, and bagged the rifle until it was required. But then again, I will reiterate - "It takes a heck of a pair of legs that let a body take a beating!"

Kevin - You are right on the NRA High Power events, they were originally military oriented until the rich and infamous began gaiming it way back when. That is why there is the army service rifle events and even they are now being gamed to death. Actually sounded like you did pretty good with the equipment yuo are working with. Now if you had the 6.5s with the 30 incher and all the rest, then yeah you would have been in competition with them. As it was you didn't have a chance man!

MIKE!!! - PSG-1 (Also known as the Piece of S**t gun - 1) Why would anyone buy an over priced, heavy, blow back weapon that has a bolt that requires the patience of Job to re-assemble? Man you gave me a heart attack with that comment! I'll never forgive you! OK I'm breathing again. Sorry, lost my head there for a moment. SNIPE WITH A LAW!! Us the 57mm RR. Cool gun and has the signature of a main battle tank. On the 50s, no sweat. I got an email with alot of the info from that Murfeesboro dude!

Don - SS symbols are not worn openly at all anymore. Reason they were worn before was that many did not know of their significance. Those that did thought it was cool that they got away with it. Even tattoos are now inspected and any that are on the list of "opps" are removed from the body or the soldier is removed from the military through quality management measures (passed over for promotion this is a carreer ender). There is NO PLACE in the military for that crap. Our fathers fought those idiots, as did many German fathers. Let not their lives be in vain for the fancy of a punk that knows not his true heritage.

Chopper - what the hell you want an IR laser aim point for? So that the cop, or his partner, can't see you designating his cranium as your next shot? Gee, maybe that is why they are restricted sales. I think that that company has a policy of not selling theirs. Not knowing the company, I don't know which aimpoint you are talking about and some are not totaly eye safe. I do know that some companies do have IR lasers for sale to the civilain world. Again why? You need goggles to see the dam thing and that causes all sorts of shooting problems. You need two eye pieces so one is focused close and the other far for movement and shooting. You will "hunt for the dot" instead of just aligning on target and letting him hold a chunk of lead. These are problems and the reason most LEA and the military goes with white light, oh yes, forgot about that screwing up you seeing the IR designator. Go white light and forget the fancy crap.

Got way too long winded this time again. Guess I will have to learn how to curb the babble.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 19:53:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.151)


Well, if you ever used a Lazer for aiming a night scope it's not that great. Darn things They are hard to locate out there on the target due to differences in reflection characteristics. And recoil knocks most of them around badly. Ever try a running target with a lazer... have fun! Good Star Scopes have the best reticles and no lazer aiming devices. They are rare as hen's teeth that work well and expensive as heck. HK once mounted an invisible in the end tube and it was effective at close ranges up to 100 or so but sucked outside of that.
It was at least protected but zero wasn't very positive. Druther have one on a shotgun at night. Only advantage I know of is that you don't have to look through something to see the thing on the target. They aren't that good anyway cause the enemy can see the thing with their NV... much better to use a standard scope or nv with built in ret.

Anybody tried that "Diamondback Como?" Saw it on some hunting channel.
Tell you this, Nature don't build much better than Diamond Back for hiding. If it doesn't turn dark at long range I can't think of anything better to blend in. That old addage "Watch for Snakes" is a
real oxy moron. You don't see a Back till he moves or rattles unless he's in the middle of the highway. Looked great of course in their ads but I suspect it's the ultimate desert or any ground camo. It just kind of gets lost... like autuum leaf. Out to be better than tree bark too.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 20:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


SCOPE QUESTION
Need help making a scope decision. Both are from Premier Recticles.
Between a Leupold 6.5-20x50mm LRT with mil-dot, or a 4.5-14x50mm LRT
with hold over dots. Also both have 30mm tubes. Both are same
money. Both would go on a REM PSS 308. Which would be better for prairie dogs. THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 22:08:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.120.66.27)
BOLT V.S. SEMI-AUTO.
Hmm! let me think now (L.O.L.)
I'd never take a semi-auto into the field and expect it to perform. My M4 sure but look at the role. Bolt manipulation hey - it is under your control - not tossing brass all over gods half acre.
I think Dave, and Rick have expounded upon this one enough.
I own a HK 91 and an FN sure - but for fun, I also have a Rem 700 for accuracy work.
The PSG1 is a big F**K**G Waste of Cash. Yes it is nice and shoot half decent for a while - but it is not a Mil arm, LE maybe not really my bag. The only people who use them that I've seen have a paranoid delusion that the teams are going to have to take out 4-5 tgt's ea.
- Yes I remeber talking about its virtues before [when I was a paranoid too]
And a G3 - come on the G3's seen shoot are worse than my 91.
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 22:31:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.135.153)


Chopper, the reason the FDA prohibits civilian sale of IR lasers is the system is not eysafe. Since the eye is not sensitive to IR wavelengths, you can look right into an operating beam and burn the retina, leaving a nice blind spot. Visible lasers are so bright that you blink or turn away from the beam before it can do any damage at the saleable power levels.

IR aiming systems work quite well on CQB weapons, and can also be very effective on some crew-served weapons. They have no good points for sniper ops, and more than a few bad points. Standard night vision scopes ( I rather like the Elcan Blackcat ) with a reticle give you a better aiming point without the possibility of detection or blockage, and are much less prone to failure.

I've got an IR laser on a suppressed MP5 that works great when operating with NV goggles, but that's a completly different role than a sniper.

Cory Trapp
SAS Products
Class II
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 22:54:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.189.73)


AresP, et al,
The semi-auto rifle as a military SWS does have a valid place. It is called "Sniper in the Squad" opposed to "Sniper as Scout/Interdiction Element". We must remember that in the early days of the craft (WWI) that everyone was armed with a boltgun and scopes were there to refine point of aim vs impact. The groups a issue Mauser,Springfield, Enfield, etc were good enough to put bullets through a machine gun aperture but the battle zero sights would put them just above or below. Yes rifles were selected for accuracy but the standards were near 2 MOA @ 100 yards which was not much better than with the battle sights. And the current M-16 has sights that can adjust for way out there but the average infantry engagment is still under 300 meters and more often under 150. There are still systems today that are based or this deployment tactic (Can you say Dragunov?).
The squad SWS is not much more than an issue weapon with better sights. Just as the 40mm grenade fills the gap between hand grenade and mortar range the squad sniper (Designated Marksman)allows the squad a precision element in its normal engagement range.
Compared to these gentlemen the squad sniper is just blasting, but in the infantry skirmish who is going to notice where the rounds that took out the RTO, MG gunner, Ammo Bearer, etc ... until he has moved on? Thoughts to consider. Snipers and sniping is not one thing but an idea of accurate fire on a specific point. How far and accurate determines many, many things not the least of which is the weapon used.
P.S.
Sniping with a LAW? Ask the Brits how well a Milan rocket does on the rock sangers in the Falklands!!!
Out.
Bo Da Gunsmith <bo@ashleyoutdoors.com>
TX, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 23:28:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.67.120)
Rick, I was not suggesting I approved of that PSG1. The only bigger crap HK has taken was the SOCOM Pistol, well who knows they may be equal turds. I was just putting the PSG1 out there as the one most semi/spray and pray guys push.

Bravo, does this semi you are talking about come with swamp land? Seriously, in 1981 I approached a Military Smith and asked him to turn my M1A Super Match into a sniper rifle. He walked into the back of his shop and came out with a McMillan Built M40 and said "You owe me my cost on this. You want me to sell this piece to cover it?" Well I switched then and there and never looked back. Ask the guys at Storm where I was hitting the targets from the towers all week and tell me I made a mistake.

I used a M1A to win a Gold Medal in High Power in the Police Olympics, but that is just game play, not my life on the line. If I think I am going to need an Assault Weapon I am taking my M4/M16 and running like hell. As a matter of fact I would take my light bbl Car15/16 shorty over a clanking pistol anytime

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 00:57:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.31)


CoolDaddy,sounds like the guy with the Savage spent his money on ammo and learned to shoot.That Savage ain't a better gun he's a better shooter or incredibly lucky.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 02:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.46)
DOH! I hate it when someone whose word I trust walks ahead of me on the same trail and doesn't come out where I figure the trail leads. Makes me go back to square one and "re-evaluate the decision criterion" a-la Patron Dave's post. Actually, I do it a little differently, and not near as elegantly.

Now, I understand that the bolt on the Rems (or Wins, whatever) is a solid nice piece, but what about the trigger? Seems to me (UNEDUCATED, NOT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCED) that the triggers on these rifles wouldn't be up to the service that youse guys are talking. Do the Timneys, Jewels, factory Rems, etc stay working good after being through NASTY outdoors? Do you guys use something along the lines of the factory Mauser triggers on your "for real" sniper weapons that see service in the mud and muck? I mean, the trigger assembly on the M-14's and like are tremendously robust and tremendously easy to clean thoroughly. Not that I'm trying to make a case that anyone is wrong, just interested in LEARNING what I obviously don't know.

I'm just wondering what I'm looking at. After all I just MIGHT have to get a bolt gun TOO. Don't think I could trade off the M-25 without copious blood loss though. The thing is just TOO good as a battle rifle. BTW, extremely little swamp land in high desert plateaus of Utah ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
liberty? what liberty?!, You're in the new, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 03:41:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.210)


Bolt gun vs. Semi-auto:

As a moderatly skilled and experienced armorer on guns both gas and bolt, allow me to say this: everybodys right. And wrong too, of course. :)

First, not all gas guns are created equal. I cant comment on PSG-1s (and at that price-point, who the hell cares anyway) but I can say that the M1-A/M14 dosent cut it as a precision rifle under field conditions, period. Unless you have a rather high-echelon armorer with a bag full of goodies tagging along with you, that is. Just too much stuff to go wrong, too many of the stunts you have to pull are too fragile to hold up in the woods. Its all chewing gum and bailing wire compared to how a bolt gun is set up. To me a tuned M14 with a low-power scope is a solid spotters/DM rifle (if you think 7.62 NATO is the way to go for a spotter/DM rifle, but I digress) because not only is it quite accurate while the accuracy lasts, but when the spell has worn off and it starts shooting like a rack-grade M14 again, it will still be accurate enough to fulfill that mission pretty well. But real precision work on a day-in, day-out basis? Not for me, thanks. I talked to two Scout-Sniper qualified MPs from Camp Lejune about a year ago, when they were fresh back from a set of trials up at Quantico as part of the selection process for the Designated Marksmans rifle. They shot M14s will every trick known to man and the Corps pulled on them and they were totaly, totaly unimpressed. Something having to do with the zero wandering as the temperature changed over the course of the morning...
 

Now, on the other hand, I havent fiddled around with a Knight but I have shot an Armalite AR10-T a fair bit now and I have to say its pretty impressive: a solid sub MOA shooter that dosent do wierd when it get hot. It just keeps banging them in there. Furthermore, it has all of the same basic attributes as its 'lil brother, the M16. Once you get those things into NM tune, there isnt much to go wrong with them. I understand that the big ARs are a bit more finiky but thats just a matter of debugging: the fundamental relationships between the parts are the same. The same MPs also had shot an Armalite AR10 variant at some point, officialy or otherwise. They seemed to have a fair bit of respect for it. I didnt have time to discuss the matter in depth, but you got the impression that they thought it an honest, decent rifle, in any event. That tells me that they at least thought it had potential. Of course, the Corps went with the M14 in the end, much to the dismay of the Chandler brothers, those MPs and a lot of other folks.
 

As for tactics and doctrine, I am not nearly as qualified to speak as others here, but I will say this: the assuredness with which one takes a side on this debate should be directly proportional to the accuracy of ones crystal ball. Different shooters have differing doctrines to suit their differing missions and hopefuly they get to draw the equipment to match, but you can't tell me that they cant run into a situation where they make one choise and then when they get out on a real-world operation where they wouldnt wish to *hell* that they had made the other choice...God, if I only had had the time to get off the second shot...God, I wish could have put that one in a *little* more precisely...You pays your money and you takes your chances.
 

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 04:06:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.36.207)


Ahhh, so now its G-3 bashing ! Come on lay it on, any day against a M 14 boys and girls.

S chutz S taffel = protection squad
Please note the difference between those that were voluntary members of the original political SS (black uniform, with the flag on the arm, the ones you see on TV).
And those that were drafted into the Waffen SS (field gray with eagle on left arm).
Two different pairs of shoes here, but the same insane management.

Not trying to come up with exuses, just giving info in the light of the scout sniper symbol ignorance.

t
"Ende"

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
G3ermany - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 07:18:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.19)


Waaay back but on the space station aiming problem:

You would have to aim to the left and right as well as up and down. Your bullet will travel in a spiral path due to the very significant corolis forces. Since there is no gravity, just a constant accelleration vector, your shot would continue at a tangent from the location it was fired from (since the spinning station would not continue to accellerate the bullet). To look at it another way, you are laying on your back on a huge, very speedy merry go round. When you shoot directly into the air your bullet will travel straight up from where you shot it with a horizontal componant equal to your horizontal velocity. Just like if you spin a rock on a string and let go. To throw it ahead of you, you have to let go when the string is streched out to either side of you (depending on the direction of it's spin). However, if you were really cool you could simply jump really high and then aim at the target as you would a target moving in a circular fashion.

Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
Manhattan, ks, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 10:22:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.189.101.130)


Tom - On the AR/SR end of the debate, one has NEVER completed our course, the shooter always changes over to his bolt gun and stays there. This always occurs during the sniper marksmanship portion in which a semi would usually give an edge. The weapons are "tuned" by national Match armourers prior to start of the course and they still fail, blow primers, jam, start shooting like crap, etc, etc, etc. I will not stake my life on a gun that will perform in such a manner. This is WITH loving care every night in a dry, indoors environment. I shudder to think about the field environment. Using the semis in the designatd marksman role is fine because you are matching the right "hammer" for the job. Using a weapon that has zero problems and grouping problems in a field envirnment and then expect it to perform once in the field, after a three day movement in indian country, is begging for failure. The worse ideas are leaving full auto on the weapon for defensive purposes. Full auto turns accurate weapons into mush the nextime you try to shoot semi. Also remember, with a gas gun you have to WAIT for the gas to cycle the bolt. With a bolt gun you can cycle it as fast as you want. :-)

Mike and Chopper - I am having a lousy time with humor here lately. Guess the grumpy old man side of me didn't allow the humor show. Those statements were in jest and ws not meant as slams. Guess I am put back on joke probation again.

Bravo - You can have alot of fun with your M21/25. Just don't expect it to hold the same once you get it into a field environment. While that sucker will keep on shooting, as will the G3, it will not be as acurate and each time the accuracy disolves to where you then have an M14. Life sucks but hey, it makes a hell of a battle rifle! :-)

Got to go guys.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 12:12:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.154)


Rick's comments to Tom are as profound as anything I ever read here.
That is zactly right on the center target. PUt that in the archives with gold letters Marius! I've gotten a lot of mail myself lately
about that subject. All who wrote to me read that over about 6 times.
Rick is one of us..... God gives us "chosen ones" the bad news and we have to pass it on to the rest of the world! It's not that we hate
semi's its that we've tried em! Read the Undude's comments too while
your at it! Another case of having been there. That wheel doesn't need reinvented.
The only reason for carrying the M-14 as a spotter weapon is if it uses the same cal as the sniper. But I'd prefer something
lighter with lighter ammo.(not a M-16, thank you very much) Your Sniper will repel a very small force but.......
A large force will overwhelm you anyway. A light weapon with lots of
ammo may give more time for air support to arrive and more speed on
retreat. God help me, but I'd pick a mini-14 semi with 500 rounds. It shoots every time. And I'd have my spotter carry me one too if there was a chance of detection and need to evade and escape on foot.
No flames please I share your concerns it's just a personal thing.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 14:10:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
I am a Civil War reenactor, portraying a member of Co. D, 2nd United States Sharpshooters. I'd like to submit an article I wrote for our West Coast Berdan Sharpshooter newsletter, The Eagle Eye, regarding the 1860's target rifle as used by those troops. How would I sent that to you ?

Yours,
Joe Jones
Joseph H. Jones <jhjones@lsil.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 14:28:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.145.40.41)



Hello all.

Enjoyed the physics, just remember...well there's really no simplifying it. You want the projectile to end up where the target will be, and you have to figure all the forces that act/will act on it over time untill it get's there. On the space station you are firing in a perfect enviroment at a target that will move away from your point of aim in an arc "upward" as it continues to be forced to orbit about the center of the cylinder. Oh well, get a basic physics book for tons of examples that really open the eyes; then run them through your calculator to find out how little affect they have on (most) real-life distances and situations.

Just a quick note on where to find "million" "mom" "march" information. Try freerepublic.com.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3920a6f87297.htm
This thread contains pictures -somewhere there's an article about exactly who the organizer is. Not to spoil the punchline, but she's a big Hillary supporter and former Democratic Senator's manager. (that's spelled "housewife" by the major media)

Chris
Chris <cmw@tiac.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 15:08:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.32.77.9)


I have seen many posts on ring lapping and they have all dealt with how much work it is. I have recently modified my lapping kit to be motor driven. Forgive me if this has already been covered. I cut the head off of a 3.5" bolt that will thread into the end of my lapping bar, there is a threaded hole for a handle in each end, and several that are perpindicular to the bar for mounting handles. It is a Brownells kit, I don't know if sinclair kits come with all of the same handle positions. Chuck up the bolt in a variable speed drill, thread the lapping bar onto the bolt, goop with lapping compound and go.
Grogan...
Grogan <reptech@televar.com>
Republic, WA, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 15:18:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.137)
Mr. Rogers.....A mini 14? Interesting. Now, if you were gonna scope that puppy what would you use? Would you consider it accurate enough to scope? Welcome to Mr Rogers neighborhood, think I'll stick around awhile. :)
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble , Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 15:56:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.111.34)
Mr. Rogers.....A mini 14? Interesting. Now, if you were gonna scope that puppy what would you use? Would you consider it accurate enough to scope? With all of this talk about "big iron" I'd completly forgotten about the little mini 14!
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble , Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 16:03:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.111.34)
Sorry about that double post thing..(see my red face)
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 16:07:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.111.34)
RE IR Night Vision:

It is the FDA that does regulate infared night vision that can damage the eye of an unknowing viewer, several sources told me. I am an attorney and tried to find the specific regulation on the computer but after wading through tons of regs on lasers, etc., I stopped since I did not have time to continue. However, Rich Urich of Excalibur has posted more than once about this reg, and John Norrell, who I work for refinishing, assured me this is the case.

I have had an IR laser years ago that I used with night vision but in recent years, I have simply used 3rd gen top quality equipment without sighting with a weapon. I have a $3,500 unit for sale now, in fact, as I often get this kind of gear through Norrell to play with and have found that while using an IR laser is fun, you can also simply get a regular laser and have the factory reduce its power so as to not damage night vision, as another alternative now that IR units are unavailable.

rtschiemer@aol.com
RTschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
conway, ar, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 16:50:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.176)


Rick: thanks for the confirmation. That's JUST what I have planned to do with it too. I'm gonna have great good fun with it, as I'm no where near a "sniper". And, if things go south in this part of the world, well, I suppose there's no disgrace in having a heavy barreled, NM sighted true battle rifle with scope capability in the field. Besides, I can "out reach" any issue 7.62X39 or 223 with it, out "accuracy" the other 308 gas guns at range, and that's about all I can ever see me needing realistically. Don't figure I'll ever have any reason to go toe to toe with a for real sniper, LE or MIL, unless we're invaded, in which case I'm depending on YOU to cover me ;-)

Jim D: sure, a mini-14. Why not? I've heard that they're fragile, but mine (an origional 180 series) hasn't ever broken anything. From the factory, accuracy stinks. If you need the name of a good smith for one, I can get it to you. He'll put a good barrel on it (unfortunately increasing weight some) and you've got a rifle that will put groups at 100 yards you can cover with a quarter or smaller. The rear aperature sucks bad, and I've not found a good replacement yet. Been kicking around the idea of scoping a ranch version, as it wouldn't use the aperature anyway.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 17:46:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


First I'd like to say that You've got a great site up, and whoever the webmaster is is doing a great job. Second I would like to say that yes, I am a minor, but I agree with the warning you posted. Most people my age do take in whatever they see or hear, and should not have access to things that could make them more dangerous. However not all people my age are like that. I myself am one of those people that do not suck in everything that comes to me. I personally don't think that killing solves anything and agree with all the things you yourself believe in, such as the bill of rights and so forth. You should put a warning in, but don't ask people such as myself to turn away from the site because we are under 18. Maturity does not have to do with age but who you are inside. I personally am not here to overthrow the government or to assinate someone, but to look at one of the things I was thinking of for a possible career, which I must write a report for.
- <xx_star_xx@hotmail.com>
Winston-Salem, Nc, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 19:32:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.168.77)
OK, I will try and explain in further detail on the Semi versus's Boltgun thing. Every Semi on the markey has big draw backs that keep it from being a true sniper rifle. As Chandler says a sniper rifle needs to be able to be dragged, stepped on etc and still hold zero, year end and year out. M14: The bedding goes south and will not hold zero for a month of use let alone extended periods. I have mine rebedded twice a year for comp. PSG1 too heavy, too much cost, too little accuaracy. G3 version is an assault rifle with a scope will not hold under 1moa. SR25/AR10: Tempermental and they brake brake brake. I had an AR10 that spent more time being carried by UPS than me. It never did shoot sub minute everytime I used it. Only once in awhile. The rest of the semi's: Mostly assault rifles with scopes and not sniper weapons. Here it is: a sniper rifle should be able to hold ten rounds under 1/2-3/4minute, cool and do it again. Wait a few days and do it again. Clean it and wait until cool/next day and check first round zero from before. It should be still be good to go. None of the semi's do that. Any rifle can get lucky with occassional good groups. My sniper rifles do it every time I shoot them or they go bye bye. The SR25 was tested by SOTIC and Rick could tell you in detail how bad they hold up. The AR10 is a cheaper version of it. I say that and I like Mark Westrom. The AR is a great 223 rifle but did not make it in 308. The bolts are as good as the original Military Contract Beretta 92 slides.

Thorsten: I will take the M14 as an 308 semi rifle over the G3 sorry. I would take the FAL over either. I would take the AR15 over all of them.

Rick, no offense. I was going for the reverse humor on you and I failed.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 19:53:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.38)


Hey, I saw an add in the NRA's magazine "American Hunter" for a Tasco World Class 3-9x40 scope with mildots. Curiosity got the better of me and so did the price, so I ordered one. Way better than the 70 bucks I paid for it, but definately not top quality. Anyway, its a good deal for all those bargan (Savage) shooters...
Mike Miller 2 <mmbackpacker@juno.com>
Yuma, AZ, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 20:14:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.197.69.133)
Guys, time for me to eat some crow. Curiousity got to me, so I called Sierra again today, asking a different question (or the same question in a different way).
"what powders are of the appropriate burn rate to give proper pressures at the gas port of the M1A with 175 grainer MK's?"
"IMR and H 4895, IMR 4064, Varget, and AA2520 are appropriate powders. The bearing surface is of little consequence, so these are the proper powders for the rifle, independent of the bullet used".
Guess I must have asked a wrong question before, or misunderstood. Sorry if I caused any confusion. Humbly,
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the UNION of independent states that make up the, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 23:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.189)
HEY LOOK OVER THERE, NAKID SHEEPIES!!!
Now that I have every ones' attention, are there any water soluble case lubes? Failing that, what is a good solvent to remove the stuff from RCBS (have some but haven't used it in years), Hornady Unique paste stuff (looks almost like mink oil) or the One Shot stuff. I have 3000 cases to size, trim debur, do the flash holes and primerpocketsa and reload by next week. Don't have the time sit around while the corn cob does it for me, and I won't hand wipe them.

.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
got a lot of cases to prep, and load in a short amount of time, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 01:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.11)


I am just starting in long range shooting, and was wondering about any opinions about the set up I am thinking of getting, a Savage Tactical .223, Redfield Scope, and a Harris bi-pod, this will be my first long range set-up, and I can get everything for about a grand, is this about right? I am looking to get tight groups at 150 - 200 yards. Any info would be greatly appreciated

~David
David <dp250@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 02:52:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.79)


Jim D.; here in the neighborhood we use the Ranch Rifle, scope mounts are good enough, otherwise I would have a smith install a weaver base system and scope it with something like a 2.5-5 Leupold or even an Aimpoint. Don't use those bolt on mounts ... yuuuuk!
This extra sight is for target aquistion quickly not long range or pin point shooting. If you can't see it you can't shoot it.
There are those who rebarrel these puppies and like someelse said, they really go to shootin. I would still elect for lightweight *good barrels and don't try to make a sniper rifle out of it. This is for runnin and shootin and winnin where they bring in full auto's and spray the landscape while they are getting killed. I prefer the Aimpoint 1" or 30mm on the mini and as they come they sure aren't capable of any kind of accuracy. But they'll hold their own with most guys shooting AR's and Ak's off hand. I find the little ghost ring sight on the Ranch rifle adequate in case the Aimpoint fails and a coin will remove the scope. 2 or 3" groups are about it at 100 meters. These little rifles are not dainty in my book. They don't compromise anything but accuracy. Ruger should barrel them and they would sell. Trigger is just barely adequate but it works if you have good control of your trigger finger.
Sniper's need to disappear not fight 90 percent of the time but if there is a fight... the only chance is hit what you shoot at.
Mostly I think the Sniper threat keeps most small units pinned but when they come they know they must come hard and fast or they'll all
perish. Nobody can shoot accurate and run at the same time. But good shots can take out runners pretty regular and that's what that rabbit gun is good for. Sorry too long!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 03:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


This is taken from a "Sniper vs. tank"-debate on www.tankers.net :-)

Scott is TC on a M1a2

TorF
 
 

Snipers
Scott Cunningham
04/24/2000
3:22:08 PM
Refers to Reply#69869.

Remember that the sniper will have a chance against a TC, but he is shooting at a head sized object from some distance away. Also, the tank may be moving. While it is not an impossible shot, and a TC might actually have more of his body exposed (especially on the M1 where you have to ride way out to see over the .50 cal) it will still be a very tough shot.

Second point: the sniper better make damn sure that he takes out the TC on the first shot as he will never get a second. As soon as the bullet impacts that tank will start looking for the sniper. Most infantry (snipers included) have utterly no ide how a thermal sight works and will quickly be turned into a fine aerosol mist as the tank sends a HEAT round into the snipers camouflaged (but not thermally protected) hideout.

Once again, I will stress that a sniper can kill a TC, but the argument is similar to a PT boat vs a Battleship debate. If ALL goes perfectly the sniper may kill a TC. If ANYTHING goes wrong he will probably pay for his error with his life.
 
 
 

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 10:45:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)


Nakid Sheepies? That's ba-a-a-a-a-ahd. I use RCBS Case Lube-2, at least that's what it says on the bottle. The bottle also says it's water soluble, but I usually put a capful of pine sole in a gallon of hot water when cleaning the casing. Then I usually rise 2 or 3 times. Seems to work fine for me.

RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 10:52:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.234.22.165)


All: site

Okay Roster Hogs - sorry for any spotty connectivity late last night ---- doing some connectivity work....should make things move along a little bit faster for youn'z

Ken :)

Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 11:06:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)


Hey Mike,

thats why they make diffrent flavors for us !

I have a M14, lots of G-3,A3´s in the arms room, and even one of those recycled Dr. Pepper cans you call AR 15.

I still like the taste of my G- 3 best, but I´d sure like to have the AR sights on it, and the M14 stock length.

Maybe some cool whip too !

On the tank commander deal,

If its a hit and the guy drops into the turret bleeding or without a heart or head then his crew is gonna get out of dodge fast. If its a miss I doubt that with all the noise and his intercom on the TC will even notice.

good point on the thermal camo conciusness though.

just my 2 Pfenning.

t
"Ende"
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 11:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.150)


Hello,
just one question.
In your opinion,due yr experience,which is the best mount + rings for an M24 with Mark4 M3 ?
How you feel the A.R.M.S.#22L ?
Thanks for your attention and good shooting.
M.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 12:03:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.11.34.50)
What caliber would you recommend? I own a .308 savage 10FP. I was thinking about 7mm rem or .300 for 1000 yard shooting. Is the 7mm rem or .300 more inherently accuate or does it depend on loading? I see a lot of info on the .300 win mag and nothing on the 7mm. I know secret service uses the sierra 168 7mm but they are going to the .300 as well. Also does a 26" barrel make a difference vs. a 24" barrel?
Ken <lynneh@ccpl.carr.org>
Westminster, MD, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 16:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.150.97.196)
Ken,
Both make good long range calibers it would be your own preference esp. if you reload. If you didn't then I would go with the 300WM. Recoil is about the same, both are harsh. You would probably get a few more rounds out of a 300 due to the bigger bore but it would be close both are hard on barrels. I used to shoot the 300WM all the time and loved it. I wore more than one out. If your going to "Build" a custom rifle look at the 6.5x284 a lot less recoil and flat shooting, better barrel life and also extremly accurate. Now that Norma is making brass and Black Hills and Hornady are both going to load match ammo for them you may see a big shift to them in place of the 300s for the 800 to 1300yd gap left from the 308s to the 50s.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 16:29:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
is there a site which displays the .50 that carlos hathcock made that 2500 yd shot with- what i'm looking for in particular are the tech drawings/pictures of the mount itself- on the 50 cal m2- the one in the book doesn't produce well enough to see how the scope is actualt mounted- it's a shot from the rear of theweapon
brian tawse <tawseb@cadbision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 19:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.144.177)
is there a site which displays the .50 that carlos hathcock made that 2500 yd shot with- what i'm looking for in particular are the tech drawings/pictures of the mount itself- on the 50 cal m2- the one in the book doesn't produce well enough to see how the scope is actualt mounted- it's a shot from the rear of theweapon
brian tawse <tawseb@cadvision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 19:50:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.144.177)
TorF...

If the Shooter is behind a berm, or ridge, (and not sitting out in the open with a wookie suit), and the TC droppes back into the tank... the "Thermal" sighting equipment isn't gonna help... and though the tank is a rolling fort, it has it's weak points.

In Afganistan, the Ruskies couldn't get out of the tanks to take a wizz, or make chow... they were prisoners in their own tanks. They showed their head, and it was bad.

I think Torsten had it right... If the TC falls into the tank bleeding, or dead, they're gonna button up and look around... if they don't see where the threat is coming from damn fast, they're gonna run til they can work out a plan.

The lone shooter (or pair) has a terrific advantage IF they know how to use terrain, and have good training, and know when NOT to shoot.

I think that there is a tendency to fit the "sniper" into one scenario, with one weapon, against one type of target, and assume that anything else, or any other weapon won't do, won't work.

If I were a sniper in Somalia, I'd rather have a M14-M21 then a M24 bolt gun... and we got creamed by hoards of untrained riff-raff (yeah, I know... the politicians too).

But there are many weapons that fit many different game plans...

'lito
 
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:10:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.61)


Brian...

The mount on the .50 M2 is the one piece Unertl "Bridge mount", screwed to a metal block, and attached to the M2...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:18:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.61)


For those of you 20 somethings still able to fit in Large Size T-shirts, I have just placed an order for Sniper Country T-shirts in that size. Sorry for the longe delay. I will have 10 large shirts in about a week or so.

Hats will be back in stock in a few days so thank you for your patience.

Scott Powers
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:24:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.86.73)


Roosters(rosterfairians/roosters/roster! Get it?), a Nosler bullet representative is going to be at a local area gun shop tomorrow and I'm gonna go down and pick his brain on some directions I might go with their bullet line. I am especially curious about the J4 competition bullet and what other recommendations he might have for a 1:12 twist barrel. Since I'm gonna be hanging out there for awhile I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have the opportunity to ask him a couple questions. If anyone would like me to ask the rep. something email me with ideas. I'll get back to you as soon as possible with any information he has. I guess if I buy 3-4 boxes of bullets I can get a free hat on top of the 15% discount on all Nosler bullets, who knows? I may actually get my monies worth!

The gun shop is having raffles galore and I'm gonna go down and throw a couple more tickets into the box for the Glock G36 that they are raffling off(a couple actually). There are also reps. from Benelli, Leupold, RCBS and one other that I can't remember right now.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 21:19:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.93.179)


'lito: Scumholia is a differing picture (were talking urban ops right), for most African crowd problems a sniper is not what's needed (a couple belt fed weapons and extra barrels). The body count is the most problematic (career going, going, career stops!) If you want to stop the leaders/agitators a scoped 16 or M4 will do the job, given your ranges. Pick handles and shovels are good for keeping them out of trucks, shotguns w/ shot are less lethal means to aid in dispersal- plus CS and Flash Bangs.
We drift right back into the DM theme when we look for rate etc. from a sniper gun. Stay mission oriented - those scenarios don't usually call for snipers, [they're nice] a couple troops w/ Elcans or Acog's will do the job in those confines.
We want to kick around the DM/Sharpshooter issue some more?
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 23:01:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.130.150)
Kevin...

DM vs SS (Not nazi's)... Nope, we wore that one out. I'm just not so sure that the line of separation is all that sharp as it has been in the past.
If you are in a given service, and a slotted shooter, then your job may be narrowly defined... but on a site like this where their is military, and LE... and in an environment where most troops are training for mixed area combat roles... Well, you know what I mean!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 23:18:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.61)


I am in the arket for a new "do-all" rifle. I am not going to be using it for long days on the range, but rather a hunting rifle out of a stand or hiking in the mountains possibly later on for elk. I really like the Remington VS in .308, but 9lbs is still heavy to some when they try to carry it for a while. I really want to get a Remington action in .308, but it's either the VS, BDL, or DM stainless from the factory, or I could just go with a custom from someplace like h.s. precision. I was wondering if anyone else thinks the VS is too heavy to carry, and also was wondering how well the other factory remingtons without the heavy barrels perform on the range. I read a few articles about the .308 VS shooting .5MOA on a great day, and am wondering if I should sacrifice weight for accuracy. I can handle the weight, but I don't know if I'd want to. Also, for an all around rifle, should I even go with a rem VS or maybe a M1A?
Rowdy <rowdy362436@hotmail.com>
Ft.Campbell, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 23:40:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.255.158.135)
'lito, I agree with it getting blured/confused. Pardon my manner but I am going to expand on the DM role v.s. spotter semi. I think we have to remember to define the sniper det's (or team's) role as either one of independant op's, or longer range percision rifle in support of pl or coy formations. I realise that you now place snipers with your pl's. However a lot of local protection tasks are not suited to the M24 (or whatever bolt gun). The mob scenarios are one of them - if the pl or higher is established w/ wire etc. the crow is likely to be at the edge of your perimeter inside the ideal envelope for a bolt gun w/ 10x scope. Joe Shmuck w/ his Molotov (or sachel charge whatever) is a easier mark at 50m with a 16 than your M24 - (and if you first you don't succeed just fire more rounds). The penetration of the 5.56 - well if you really need to defoliate a sandbag position etc. hey you have a GPMG right!.
Spotters carrying another bolt gun gives a backup in case yours unlikely goes sour (redundancy blah blah blah). I firmly believe in the two gun approach M4/CAR-15 and bolt gun. Mainly if you get into Sh*t, your bolt gun ain't going to save you at contact dist. And think - gee we're humping about 120 lbs of kit that extra 7lb rifle isn't much more and Great Life Ins. I'd rather have two M4's [one w/ 203] against a En ptl than a 14 [or G3] and a bolt gun (or carry a white pillow case - and start waving it)[but I'm the clown who also brings a pistol too - weight can always be ditched].
Blah Blah Blah - Iv'e probably bored every one to tears with the regurgitation - I just see it as a spin off of the semi/bolt gun idea.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 23:58:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.146.177)
To add to the confusion, I spent 20 years in the old WWII type diesel submarines. We were (all qualified submariners are) designated SS. It stands for Silent Service, submersible ship, sinking shitcan, silly shits.... who knows...? Just another slant on the SS, no, not sniper or nazi oriented.
 

Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.132.161)


Sniper vs Tank - Hmmm, now there is a senerio that is missed represented alot. The idea is to get the TC to button up and then let the TOWs, etc cave in the side of the tank. Once the tank is buttoned up they are vulnerable. One of the reason that the Isrealis are so successful is that they do not let the TCs button up. While this is very hard on the TCs, It allows the TC to see launch signatures and bring peepee on the offending buttheads that just launched the missle. If you whack the TC, (driver is better) then all the better, aim low and skip it in. This increases the chance of a splatter hit and it lets them know they have been shot at and in danger. If you can get them to button up and deploy early then you have done your job. I will guantee you that they are more worried about missle launch then 7.62mm copper gilding marks on their tank. When they button up they will be watching for launch signature not looking for the human that shot that round, unless the human is so open that he is obvious. I'm sure that some will disagree and that is what all this is about, discussing different methods, unfortunately I'll be away from my computer for the next week and a half, so if you have a real good thought on this email me so I will see it. Otherwise I'll miss it in the roster.

DM vs Sniper - This is a matter of mission and not name. In the scenerios I've seen on the roster, it would be up to the sniper to match the right hammer to the right job. Who would use a brass mallet when a sledge is required or better still who would use a hammer when a nail gun would be faster and appropriate, ask Norm of the New Yankee Workshop. To argue that one gun is better than another all the time is not going to ever work. There are times when the bolt gun is the required tool, there are times when a fast shooting M4 is the required tool. There are times, to include Africa scenerio, when both are required. Try taking out some low life using a human shield at 300 meters with a weapon designed to take down the human wave attack. But that weapon to take down the human wave will be needed to protect the whole. One is for more steel on target and the other is for the surgical under adverse conditions. You can't have one without the other, just match the tools with the requirements. My arguement is that the semi, in it's present form, will not replace the bolt gun for that surgical. That bolt gun will not hold terrain though and it can not be decisively engaged. That is its big weakness. Though with proper planning and assessment of the situation, the sniper can put a package together that will prevail.

Got to go guys have fun for th next couple weeks. I will be thinking of you guys AND "gals" (?what is the accptable word now days?) while I go on my vacation.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.183)


Thanks to all for the help on the case lube question. Making a fundamental change in reloading procedure needed research.

High Power Question: Am I suffering paralysis by analysis, and using up a perfectly good barrel testing loads? I plan to chase some leg points this summer, and I would like NOT to LOSE them at 600.

Dave Liwanag, 'Lito, UnDude & company, do you guys think I am expecting too much out of my 600 yard AR load? It consistently groups just over 3.00" for 10 shot groups with open sights at 300 yards off sandbags. (The distance I test all loads at initially. I will shoot it at 600 this weekend.) My scope mount is FUBAR, so I have to rely on the iron sights right now. Maybe our AMU guy (sorry, I forgot your name) can help me out, what do you consider an acceptable group for a 600 yard AR15/M16 load? As a point of reference, I have a 77gr Sierra load for 200 & 300 that I can keep 10 shots in 2.5" at 300 off of sand bags.
 

steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
Paralysis by analysis, in south west PA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.218)


Gee, did I start this? I've used you guy'ses logic (and I DO see it), thought hard on it, and determined that my answer was right. Just asked the wrong question. I stand by my weapon (right or wrong), the M-25 as being THE ideal weapon for ME. Now, I'm no sniper, LE or MIL. Probably never will be. But I am a "wanna be" spotter. Am I the first guy to ever opt for the spotters position over the snipers? I honestly beleive that this weapon is about as good of a spotters weapon as can be for the majority of times (yeah, no one thing is going to be right ALL the time). I'm not trying to use a hammer instead of a 5/16" boxend wrench, I'm saying that I'm a mechanic, not a carpenter. Don't need any hammers (no Chev's in the garage) and nails, but a good set of wrenches is a MUST. You guys are PERFECTLY right. If I were going for surgical precision, first round hits, I'd be using the wrong tool. That's what a snipers for, and it ain't me! Seems to me that Mawhenny used to carry a bolt gun AND a M-14. Must have had a reason, that's a lot of excess weight.

And Kevin of the North: I'm also a big beleiver in a pistol as well. Not so much for necessity as the psycological comfort it gives. I KNOW what kind of a pistol shot I am, and I KNOW what kind of a rifle shot I am. So I love the pistol, and will give Mike a "teaching challenge" :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Oh, I wish I lived in the land of liberty, but I guess I have to settle for the, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.200)


I have to say my new Starlight case is outstanding. Also had excellent dealings w/ the Forster people lately. (Went to Redding,anyway).
Also my thanks to Pablito lately and Bill (dc8 plumber).

I love my M1A, but the groups open up when the bbl gets hot. Plus, after 2 Mudville matches in the rain, I am going to have Jerry Rice redo a M700 I have recently purchased. You don't need to be in the bush for several days to see the difference between the two systems. One rainy Mudville will convince you. The "beast" funtioned flawlessly, but when that flaky gravel that is on the firing line sticks to you, your scope, and all over your weapon, you see the light.
Spud,
Semper-Fi!
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 06:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.68)


Gentlemen:

I have decidade to trade my Leupold Tactical Vari III 4.5-14 40mm for another scope.
It may be a Kahles 6x42 K-ZF95 Mil-Dot or a Schmidt und Bender 3-12x50 Police Marksman P-1 Bryant.

My Leupold has a mil-dot reticle so I know what to expect but the Bryant reticle is unknown to me (its capabilities).

Finnaly my main goal it to aquire a scope with the better build quality and rugedness.

Could you please be so kind to help me with your expertise?

Thank you.
 

P. Marcos
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
Lusitania - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.65.14.68)


Rick...

We agree on the bolt v. Semi thing (same page of music again ;)... and you said it well.

Bravo Dudeski!!...
Yes, it's your fault!... and Hathcock's spotter carried a 14 also, and did it prowd in "Elephant Vally"... each gun's attributes supporting the other, to the major dismay of the enemy!

If the world goes to hell in a hand basket, and they're burning down the houses on the next street, you can plop your raggity-assed M1A on my porch any time ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:25:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.105)


DAVE LIWANAG,
Speeking of leg points, congratulations on the Silver last weekend!

Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:57:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.26.196)


?????????Does anyone know of any civilian sniper schools??????????????????????
Jim <jim586@thecia.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 11:05:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.214.97.42)
All:
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW AND GO TO THIS SITE:

http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html

An extremely well done spoof on a well known official. Be patient with it - it takes about 5 minutes for the whole show...
 

Ken :)
 
 

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:15:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)


All:
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW AND GO TO THIS SITE:

http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html

An extremely well done spoof on a well known official...Be patient with it - takes about 3 to 4 minutes for the whole show.
 

Ken :)
 
 

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)


Rowdy,
I don't think there is such a thing as a "Do All" rifle but you need to decide what you will be doing the "Most" of and go with one that will cover your needs for the majority of the time. I would not be afraid of a plain BDLSS in the 308. I have one in a 260 and it will shoot 3 shot groups in the 2.5" range at 400yds all day long everyday as long as I don't get it very hot. The heavy barrel theory gets taken to the extreme once in a while, esp. with "Snipers" and "Tactical" shooters. We all want the pin point accuracy but in reality we still spend one hell of a lot more time carring it than shooting it. I have seen some very light barrel rifles shoot nearly one hole 3 shot groups and if were honest with ourselves don't we like to preach "One shot one kill" so why the big heavy barrels??? I think part of it has come from tactical matches where a lot of shooting is required with pin point accuracy, I have seen some people even going to bench rest calibers to try and gain and edge in the accuracy phase. Now from that little speach you might think I own mostly light barreled rifles, WRONG!! mine are all heavy except for my hunting rifle, the 260 BDLSS. I have them from 10 to 15lbs. but then I shoot a lot when I go out and shoot and when you shoot a lot a heavy barrel has the advantage because it heats up much slower and stays consistant much longer. So to make a long story short, pick a rifle to fit "YOUR" needs not someone elses idea of what is in "Style". Just my opinion for what its worth, Good luck!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 13:26:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
| Subject: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
|
| To one and all:
|
| This is the latest move in the destruction of the 2nd Amendment by the
| Clinton Commu-Nazis.
| Some of the names you will see below are real "heavy hitters" in the
| shooting world. Note: MSG Steve Reiter is the current and past National
| Pistol champion. MSG Fox is Ruby Fox, womens' National Pistol champion
| for about a dozen or more years running, and one of the few 2600+ womman
| shooters in the world.
| Despite the fact that there are more Olympic medals awarded for
| shooting than any other discipline - 13 in total - it looks like the USA
| will loose by default this year.
| It should be further noted that these were the same people who saved
| the US Army's bacon when the Infantry school fell on it's face for lack
| of marksmanship training in Desert Storm!
| Some people never learn.
|
| Respectfully,
|
| MSG David J. Lindstedt, Sr.
| US ARMY (retired)
| former team captain & coach 79th ARCOM Pistol team
|
| PS: Please forward this to any and all interested parties.
|
|
|
| --------- Forwarded Message ---------
|
| From: "MCILHANEY,ROBERT L.", INTERNET:
| To: "Dave Lindstedt
| Date: 5/16/00 5:21 AM
| RE: FW: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
|
| Dave,
|
| Well they have done it to us. It is official now. All Army reserve
| marksmanship teams and activities are going to be stopped. If you have
| friends in high places or know someone who does
| we could use the help with some face ripping letters.
| Bob
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Harry Russell
| Subject: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
| I got this email from Helmut today. It was a bit of a shock, although
| a lot of us had seen it coming; here it is in black and white. At the
| end of Perry, we have to turn in our equipment.
| Many of you have connections in high places, whether it be the
| military or politicians. We need to call in on all of our favors to try
| and keep the program going. I need someone to write a letter and pass
| out to our teammates to sign and mail to our Representatives in
| Congress, Senate and anyone else who will listen, including USARC. The
| letter should describe the benefits that the Army receives by having us
| as a Team and also the long tradition that we have had. We have
| wordsmiths on the Team who are more eloquent than I am and know the
| history of the Team better. Please let me know ASAP if you would like
| to volunteer to do this. If not, I'll take the bull by the horns and
| try to write it myself. Other Service Teams may also have a personal
| interest because if our program is cancelled, theirs also may be
| adversely affected. Let's go down with a fight and try and save our
| program!!!
|
| MAJ Russell
|
|
| Gentlemen,
|
| 1. It is my sad duty to inform you that the USAR is the first military
| organization to cancel competitive marksmanship activities. Hopefully
| the USAR will be the only one to do so.
|
| 2. Each of the teams (Pistol, Rifle, and Combat) will make arrangements
| to turn-in their equipment at the completion of this year's
| competitions. The equipment (which includes firearms) will be returned
| to the property book holder, the Small Arms Training Team (SATT).
| a. Pistol Team. All soldiers competing in the National Matches
| will turn their equipment in at Camp Perry, OH, after the pistol phase
| of the National Matches. Any team members who do not participate in the
| Nationals must make arrangements to turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 July 2000.
| b. Rifle Team. All soldiers competing in the National Matches will
| turn their equipment in at Camp Perry, OH, after the rifle phase of the
| National Matches. Any team members who do not participate in the
| Nationals must make arrangements to turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 August 2000.
| c. Combat Team. All soldiers will turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 August 2000.
|
| 3. Ammunition will be issued in quantities that will be expended no
| later than the turn-in dates. The remaining ammunition will be
| consolidated for transfer to the Army Marksmanship Unit or the National
| Guard Marksmanship Training Unit for use in their competitive
| marksmanship programs. MAJ Steven Spencer, as the All-USAR Shooting Team
| Ammunition Officer, is responsible for the
| disposition of ammunition.
|
| 4. The Army Marksmanship Unit will not order any new ammunition.
| Expendable items necessary for the successful completion of this year's
| activities may still be procured.
|
| 5. Additional information will be provided in future correspondence.
|
| 6. If we have to go out, let's go out with a big BANG (at Interservice
| and the Nationals that is).
|
|
| Helmut J. Hein Lynn Belcher
| Assistant Branch Chief,
| Individual Training Branch
| U.S. Army Reserve Command

*******************************************
Anyone seen this? Is it true? Is DoD returning to the practice of not practicing marksmanship, again? I thought DoD was getting more into marksmanship. Does this also mean that CMP is going away, perhaps?

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Denver, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.160.133.50)


Re: Destruction of USAR Shooting Team

"A country too long at peace inevitably attacks itself".

(I don't know who authored this, but it seems to fit)

Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
the divided State of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:04:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.235)


Jim

Re: Civilian sniper schools.

Check out www.stormmountain.com or contact bobbywhit@hotmail.com.

Storm Mountain is about as close as you're gonna find to a military style sniper course and Bobby runs a fine course also.

You might also consider the "Hardrock" matches put on at Ft Benning each month. While not schools they are sniper oriented matches and you will learn a lot by attending them. Contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com for more info.

On the USAR team. Too bad. Its a shame. Having been knee deep in the active USMC team and the ARNG budget process's at their MTU's I don't know if I would look at the Clinton admin as being the root of this. Most of the time its the budget fags at DA/HQMC etc that force this. In the reserve forces its all about recruiting and retention. If you can't tie into this, you're out.

Out
 

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.176)


Pat

I read your comments on the current state of the military. And have to say that most people have know Idea how bad it really is.

I got out amost 3 years ago. I started on a fast attach submarine (10 years ago) where if I even thought about a mistake or hesitated with an answer for a qualification, I was knocked on my a#$%%%%**.

After sea duty I was assigned to a submarine tender which was about 65% female because there was no other place for them in the US Navy. Also it made getting a good shore billet almost impossible.

As for the submarine tender duty, most of the women there were single parents who always had an excuse why they had to go home early or why work just could not get done because of sick kids.

Trust me I could go on and on about this subject.

Bottom Line is that the personel on the submarines are highly trained but they are not responsible and no were near the quality of the submariners 10-15 years ago. Because we are not allowed to train them properly. The people repairing these submarines are even worse.

I really hope we are not involved any thing resembling a war in our current state because some LESSONS will be learned the hard way and people will die just because they are not properly prepared and the equipment is not battle ready.

thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion.
Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
Murrieta , CA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 17:38:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.194)


Kevin, we agree on the two rifle approach. One Sniper one M4. Pistol just becomes to heavy at that point. My opinion. I would rather carry two extra mags for the M4.

On Pistols, Bravo, anyone that can shoot a pistol can be trained to shoot a rifle minus handicaps. I have carried a pistol for a long time, daily, and just prefer a rifle to save my butt. Seen too many guys say "PLease dont shoot me again"

Got to go

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 18:25:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.47)


Luso,
Whilst the Bryant reticule is acceptable at X12 magnification, it 'disappears' (becomes a tiny, unreadable smudge in the centre of your field of view) if you zoom the S+B scopes back down to X3 magnification. Stick with mil-dot on S+Bs.
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 19:39:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.43)
Jim ( in Columbus, GA)

What Gooch said re: the "Hardrock" matches is accurate. I'm pretty much a newbie, really, at this. This will be my first complete year competing in matches.

The matches are on Sundays(as a rule) at the Ft. Benning English Range. These happen once a month. The other half of the tactical series is held in Ala. on a private farm. Magnificent place complete with 1000yd range. I'm getting up at 3AM tomorrow to drive there and try to get some zero shots in before the relays. The Alabama matches are generally once a month, as well. So it's two matches per month, usually.

Anyway, there are many great people; great equipment; great atmosphere. You can learn a lot ( I have). Not to mention the thrill of the doing. My excitement is my own worst enemy, but that's one of many reasons I go.

Rusty is a great guy, and I'm sure he would provide you with details. Also, the phone # for the Benning Club is 706 689 3371. Ask for Mr. McQuinn or Jim Graham. I'd throw in their email but EDS has clamped shut the corporate mailsystems due to the lastest virus scare. I think it's brpc@mindspring.com or some such.

Hey, you're in Columbus !!! You're right there..

Jeff A.
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 22:19:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)


I am going to be purchasing a Tasco SS 10x42 mil-dot scope. I have a question on zeroing at a 100 yard range. Would it be practical to crank down the elevation adjustment so that there were only 10 or 20 clicks left to go down before boresighting, then boresight for roughly 100 yards? That way when you zero, you would already be close to 100 yards and wouldn't waste elevation by having the elevation adjustments in the middle and not have enough elevation beyong 4-5 hundred yards.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
Rohnert Park, CA, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 00:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.176.132.119)
Pete Robinson; I'm thinking you have some way to move the mount to accomplish the boresight? Are you talking about shimming the mounts?
Or lapping them to zero? Normally boresighting uses the turrets unless the mount is adjustable. If you have adjustable mounts it would be very practical to do that. Or did I miss something?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 00:46:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Got a copy of Karen Christenson's long range shooting
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:37:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)
Got a copy of Karen Christenson's long range shooting "game" the other day. Its not really a game rather a training aid. It's good to go guys and I recomend it. Check it out at www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/longrangeshooting.html

I've only messed with half of the thing so far and its easy to lose yourself in it. Its very well done and to tell you the truth... I wish I had thought of it!!

As soon as I can convince the rest of TRGT to come on board we will be selling it.

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:38:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)


Hey Gooch; I'll tell you my first score if you'll tell me yours!
You first!
He's right guys! It's a great way to learn the dots.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:48:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Doh!! Its Karin Christenson. Sorry Karin!!!

Kent
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)


GUY'S, MR. GOOCH, is right on about Ms. Christenson's training aid, it's really nice,I use it and sub my own load data , so I can learn my c up's & windage.Try it it's a HOOT!, Thank you MA'M!...tshoes
"BIG D".
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:02:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.211)
Steve, quit wasting your time shooting test loads. You have the load you need in the 77s for 200 and 300 yards. How tight must the gun group for high power competition? 10 rounds in the 10/X-ring with iron sights for 200 and 300 yards, 20 in the 10/X-ring at 600.

Now go shoot. A lot. Replace barrel as needed.

STOP THE MADNESS! Stop couch-potato G-2'ing gear picks. Strap it on and go to the woods. If you don't need it, dump it. If you do need it, get it.

Sniper versus tank? You're kidding, right? I doubt a thermal-sighted main-gunner is going to use his co-ax machinegun on one knucklehead and spotter when his TC's body falls through the hatch and lands on his head. He's looking for the next incoming (fill in here: TOW, Javelin, Milan, HOT, LAW, RPG, Sagger, etc.) that's gonna smoke him. History example: Israeli tank commanders suffer the highest head/upper torso wounds of their combat arms. So did the Soviets in Afghanistan, and now the Russians in Chechnya. A buttoned-up tank is blind.

Thanks, Paul.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:11:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


Mike: The only time you need a pistol is when you don't have one. I agree they usually are more trouble than they are worth,... but

Tanks: come on you think a sniper det is going to be a priority, maybe after all the anti-armour systems are dealt with. Besides you really want to take a shot at any old tank? - Sqn comd and up yeah... but hey button em up with arty - them burn 'em with tow. Also re:thermal, you can't tell a sniper det from a fire team so why waste a HEAT rd when .50 or 7.62 coax will do.

Spotters: (I'll rest on this after - I swear) Ideally your spotter is a qualified sniper as well - and you will be switching on and off - Esp. if you are in a hide for awhile. Now you see the tgt - wake your buddy - do you really want him to shoot now? Best he acts as spotter while you do the shooting - given that, do you really want a gas gun?
M4A1's are good to at least 600m, not ideal, but sufficent. Yes there are times when a M21/25, SR-25 etc. will do, but I don't think many of us would want to be limited in that way - One round can get by, but after three or four even a pre-schooler can narrow your position down
BUT I am quite willing to admit to scenarios that a 7.62 gas gun is an effective (and possbily welcomed) aid. Tailor you kit to the mission, not limit the mission due to your kit's insufficiencies (HEY any CDN Brass watching)
 
 
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.143.206)


Been listening in on the snipers backup weapon discussion. Who else feels like they would rather hump an M4 type as opposed to say an M9, HK, or Sig?
I'm thinking that the added weight might be worth it.Wasn't this subject brought up before? Some were talking about 12ga. shotguns then I believe. Is anyone doing this? How do you carry the weapon that is not in use? How much ammunition do you carry for the M4?
I might have to consider selling the Sig P220 in favor of an AR15 type. Something else to cloud my brain with.
Don
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:28:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.139)
Gentlemen,

first of all, the feedback on the choice of the "tools of the trade" you all gave was invaluable and admittedly I came out being far better informed in a lot of things. But my own beleif and bottomline regarding equipment still remains the same : Equipment is equipment and the best choise is the "hammer" that one's training, tactical, operational and deployment doctrine allows one to perform at maximum efficiency.

When it comes what "tool" shoots better MOA's, with all things being equal (training and judgement ability), I think from now on I will only accept statements that are based on test results derived from purely mechanical methods.

Want to compare two weapons ? Put the weapons, each one in turn in an anchored, stable, non-flexible vise made out of tool steel and conduct firing tests at staged distance ranges and controlled conditions.

Then take the firearms for a trip in your favourite Indian/mud/hill/mountain/, put them on the same vise again and under the same conditions, conduct the test again.

Perhaps this is "a" or "the" way to distinguish who manufactures a true combat weapon system and who manufactures something that shoots nice little tight MOA's only when the stock is glass beaded, the ammunition is handloaded with surgical precision, the shooter visits a gunsmith whose middle name is "Yoda" every week and the rifle is shot only every 15th day of the month after being trasported to the range in a velvet lined guncase (and the oracle advises the shooter that the planet allignment is right).

All firearms created equal ? You bet they are not. But nearly all combat rifles, properly maintained, fall within a comparable and, most importantly, predictable range of operating efficiency under nearly any operating condition. On the other side, one comes across a civvie firearm that boasts an AK/HK/Rem 700/K98/ and if it has a tigerstripe cammo stock, it is called "sporter" and if it has a black painted stock and an increase in price of 250%, it is dubbed "tactical". But hey... one still paid over three thou for it so it HAS to be good and since it is the "tactical" version, it automatically means that it will not fail you in the real world. I think I will paint my front door black and dub it "Tactical Intrusion Countermeasure System (tm)" and feel good about myself.

Anybody under the impression that Vassily Zaitsev or Major Walter Könings returned after every mission to a beer cooler and a master armourer to breastfeed their rifles ?

This post is way too long and it is way too late in the day. Just disregard it... nothing but the ramblings of a youngster...

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 08:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)


Did i forget to mention that I swear by the quality of German firearm engineering ?

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 09:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)


Again, for the spotter, what's your mission? You really MUST rotate guys off the optics every 30 minutes or so, before the eyestrain makes you ineffective. The two or three guys in position have to agree on the optimum combo of first-round lethality versus group suppression (the bad guys' buddies) and break-contact firepower. All three must be able to rotate on to the main gun or the spotter's gun.

Why does everyone make the assumption a sniper must ALWAYS shoot and run away? If you're on the OFFENSIVE, with your own mutually protecting infantry, tanks, and indirect fire, you swing a mighty club as well.

Walter Reed Army Medical Research Center has done great studies on sleep deprivation. A guy may be a walking zombie after 24-48 hours continuous without sleep, and it DOES NOT affect accuracy. With a sniper rifle or 25mm chain gun he will consistently nail any target. Problem now becomes a clouded judgment call (his reactions are hindered about the same as a .01 blood-alcohol content) -- he can smoke the target within a half-minute of angle accuracy. New problem -- he smokes a friendly 50-75% of the time, bigger than Stuttgart during Oktoberfest.

Oh, and tanks seldom travel without infantry.

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:32:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


Fellas:

Anyone know if a Chandler Tactical Precision Mount will fit on an HS Precision (HTR) action?

HS says "anything that will fit a Rem 700 will fit ours as well..." but IBA says they've had at least one of their customers in TX tell them the Mount did NOT fit....

Thanks.

Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.90.112.97)


Just picked up a new rifle from an FFL holder on a transfer. Problem is, he is holding a box of Black Talon rifle ammo (included in the shipment as a "thanks for buying from me" gift) hostage pending a response from ATF regarding whether or not it is restricted as ARMOR PIERCING AMMO! When he opened the shipping box and saw the ammo, he thought he remembered that Black Talon rifle ammo in .308 was somehow restricted. Then he held a magnet up to it and decided that it contains steel, so he called the ATF technical division and asked them if the ammo is restricted. When I told him that I thought Black Talon pistol ammo was restricted by Winchester to law enforcement sales only, he said rifle ammo in .308, .223, and 7.62x39mm is restricted. So, I am stuck waiting for him to get a call back from ATF. Does anyone know if he is correct?
 

DNH <dh972@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:55:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.56)


Hate to make this "politics" county, but we could use some help. Some "good meaning" people want to pass some legislation to restrict where our concealed carry permits are valid. They're having a major "drive" at every library in every town in the state (UTAH) between 10:00 and 14:00 today. If this stuff goes through, it would keep licensed concealled weapons out of churches and schools. Not gonna preach to the choir, just need more people to do what I'm headed out to do. Stand in front of a library for 4 hours with some signs, handing out anti-gun control flyers, hopefully making some pro-carry media opertunities. And of course, keeping folks from (through education!) signing that stupid form. We now return you to the ongoing debate....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the commie infiltrated state of, Utah, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 14:30:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.193)
DNH...
Your "Dealer" is a jerk... tell him to read the manuals that come with the license!
The black talon line is an expanding line of bullets, not "armour piercing"... and it was Winchester's decision to "restrict" sales to police, because of media pressure... not the "ATF's".

But they re-named the stuff, made some cosmetic changes, and it is still on the civilian market, without the "scary name".

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 15:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.79)


Dave,
I think I get tunnel vision sometimes, since we don't have organic pl and coy snipers. I always think in terms of a BN asset, or higher, that deploys for the most part w/o support. I agree on the eyestrain issue, but if your in a hide for a week or so, 30min shifts aren't going to cut it. -as for lack of sleep, I guess if you can talk to a tree, you can drop buddy just as fast.
A little bird told me one of your Lt Col's (from Lewis) got his pee-pee wacked for using handloads at a All-Navy PACFLT match (career going, career going, career stops -don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!) I take it this a great faux pas? Moral of this story don't call for an alibi when using handloads.
 

Ares: A rest/vise is probably not a realistic field expedient, but some good points.
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 16:36:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.1)


Kev, don't know about the faux pas at Lewis. The old Excellence-in-Competition rules were everyone HAD to shoot issue M1 or 7.62 Match. CMP changed the rules since there is no US standard 5.56 Match (across all services).

"CMP Rule 4-18. Ammunition. A. Rifle. Rifle competitors may use any safe ammunition."

The Navy issues Leg Match 7.62 and 5.56mm ammo to shooters who bring their score card to center of the line prior to first relay.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)


Kev, my mistake: if it was a COMBAT match, which is supposed to be issue 5.56 NATO Ball, and off-the rack M16A2s, then the guy ought to be disqualified and had the snot kicked out of him behind the trucks.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
I was there before, durring, and after the gun grab folks. Handed out leaflets to anything that would take it (salute it, pick it up, or paint it?), had signs, support and all. Couldn't turn away more than a hand full of folks or so out of the 50 or so that showed up. "I saw the ad for the petition in the paper", and "I heard the coverage on NPR" is what I heard a LOT of. Thanks, biased media. You've got folks driving out to take away gun rights on Armed Forces day. Now you guys know why I drink, and why I sign off the way I do. Even had some 70 or 80 year old couple wanna be nasty to me, calling me everything short of a terrorist for supporting concealed carry permit holders entering schools legally. I need a beer or 12. Sorry for the intrusion, just thought you might wanna know our side is on the losing end, my energy and eloquent speaches included. :-(
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:30:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.157)
Kudos to Pablito

Just finished doing my trigger as per Lito's extremely well written step by step instructions. I now have a smooth as glass 30 oz. trigger. Which should help my group size tremendously.

I encourage others to follow his instructions to the letter and you to will be plesantly surprised with the results.

Again, hats off to lito for sharing his expertise.

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:42:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.36.75)


Looking through the catalogs, I notice that LEE produces a bullet feed kit and a case feed kit for their press. Has anyone tried adapting either or both of these to a Hornady Pro-Jector? I've heard of adapting the bullet feed to a Dillon, thought it might be possible and worth it. Not that I would own one of their presses....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
comunist infiltrated, state of Utah, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 22:30:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.145)
semi throwing brass all over the place- you never hear of a brass catcher- now granted ,you have to modify them slightly to get them to work with a scope sight, but with this thing in place, the brass argument doesn't hold water- before canada went stupid and banned the m14-i had one with a brass catcher attached- you cocked it by screwing a piece of cleaning rod into the charging handle, pulling it back to cock, and then unscrewing the rod- grated it was complicated, but i never lost one round of brass- it was secured by a couple of snaps that mated the stock to the catcher-right now my principle is a savage 99 rs rechambered to 308-something acceptable to thje can govt for the moment
brian tawse <tawseb@cadvision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.216)
Ah a thread has raised its head. Trigger weight. Danny this is not a hammer on you just a comment that your post brought to mind.

IN MY OPINION too many people take their triggers too light. In my mind there is nothing wrong with a good, crisp 3 - 3.5 pound trigger. Here is my thought process...

1. In my personal experience I've had a problem with keeping a good firm grip on the rifle when the trigger gets too light. I tend to want to "baby" the trigger and lighten my grip with a light trigger.

2. I think a sub 3 pound trigger is too light for a tactical shooter when under stress. I had a light trigger (around 2 pounds) on my M24 when I went through the Army course and had a "AD" for my first sighter shot on the KD qual. I was settling in for the first shot and whoa nellie!! M40A1s are set at 3.5 pounds and my C24 is at 3.2 pounds and that's just about right for me. I can lay the finger on the trigger, get settled etc without fear of launching. I'm not talking about leaving my finger on the trigger between shots. Just talking about the placing the finger on the trigger just prior to the shot.

3. A light trigger doesn't have an absolute correlation to smaller group size. Good trigger control does. Now it could be argued that a lighter trigger makes trigger control easier but I think you lose a degree of control when you go below a certain level.

Any other thoughts on this? Lets get buisy!!

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)


Brian - Brass catchers. You every seen a piece of brass get hung up in the ejection port due to a brass catcher? I haven't but was wondering if that would be an issue. I've used my ghillie veil to cover up ejecting brass on an M21 before.

out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)


i've never had a round hang up on me like that- i have the solid catchers by e&l on my car15, uzi, and m14- or at least had- i did hear about something loke that happening to the bag type, but never had it happen in real life9you notice how i used the past tense- i don't have any of those now
brian tawse <tawseb@cadvision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:49:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.130.46)
I LIKE that ENTER thing on the address...

Agree w/ Gooch on the trigger issue. Running down a wounded magpie (12 Ga.) once a looong time ago and decided I'd finish 'im w/ one well-placed .44 Spec. from my M29. He stopped, I stopped, and as I was pulling down on 'im it went off in the dirt. That night the trigger was readjusted to 3 lbs. (single -action). Taught me a lesson.
Then there was the ND w/ my 7 mag... Went down range but I have been satisfied w/ 3-5 lbs. depending on use in my firearms nowadays. What's REALLY important is that clean break and lots of PRACTICE.

I too have used a face veil or scarf w/ my M1A. Works good but I don't use it often. I attached some velcro to it and then velcro it to my scope. Lays 'em right at my feet offhand and right next to the weapon from prone. Excellent in tall grass.
May try it @ Mudville one day. I'm sure the bolt-gunner on my right would be grateful.
Semper-Fi,
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, californicateya, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 05:52:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.221.21)


I also have to agree with Mista Gooch on the trigger release thing, mine is set at 2 1/2 lbs, and is probably a little on the light side.

Tactical rifles are meant for abuse, not coddling like some princely bench rest rifle. Now don't go getting the idea I wish somebody beating my noggin baseball bat style with an M-24 clone, buuuuut,

a 6mmPPC "Tactical rifle" w/ BR type trigger weight?????

One thing I understand is the Stress concept in training based on some real life experiences and a lotta IPSC (old style) and creative training some shooting buddies came up with in the late 1970s and early 1980's while training for L-E careers, or just self preservation in bad neighborhoods.

Once that blood gets pumping and adrenaline rushes along at light speed from doing something like a simulated 400 yard Foot pursuit followed by a brief bit of fancy gunplay with a .45 auto, 9mm, or .38 revolver You develop a greater understanding of your own own mortality and physical conditioning! Yep this is "Spindley little" peteR who doesn't get fed/eat enough talking.

For those fit enough to try a 100 yard dash, say from the target bank/butts to the firing line, then unlock your POV trunk, grab said unloaded & cased rifle, run to line, (walk if other shooters are present for safety), then load a round from an ammo box or SSP and fire it at a 2" sized "T" at 100 or 200 yards. Lets try under 5 minutes for start times and decrease it from there.

Light weight "Go buttons" (UNDER 2 1/2 LBS)are better left to either the Master Snipers, or those more interested in static position accuracy shooting.<(UND

Off my soap box, and away to start sawing trim on yet another persons home in....
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.183)


Trigger pulls...

I'll probablt catch a lotta' flack for this, but I don't think there is "one right" weight.

You can spring set 5 different gun triggers to the same weight, and when you shoot them, they will all feel different, due to the width (wide ones feel lighter than narrow ones), and where the finger settles on the trigger... lower feels lighter than higher.
Also, hands are different, and experence is different. It isn't the number of ounces that matters, it's whether you are in control of it that matters. If you are constantly wondering "when the hell is this sucka going to let go"... it's too heavy.
If you are often surprised by it going off as you're just starting up, it's too light... if you feel "it'll go any moment" and it does, you are in control, and it's right for the gun, the type of shooting, and the amount of stress/fatigue you have in that type of shooting.

I have field rifles that are 2 oz's (P'Dogs and Crows), and 5 pounds (Spotters matches)... and both are fine for the type of shooting they do.

Whatever it is, you need to be in control, and practice with it.

'lito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.95)


Ares, you make a point and as as soon as I start using a bench rest/vise to snipe with I will use one to test products. Test things the way you plan to use them. That by the way comes from more than just me. The first M16's failed in combat because they were not tested under the same conditions or with the same ammo. Your method would not have shown this either, but putting them in the mud, out of the vice would have. As to why certain rifles and equipment called tactical remain more expensive than sporter versions, it is as simple as the old race car approach of how fast you want to go depends on how much you have to spend. Granted that a point is reached in which you are just over spending but if you think the only difference between a Remington VS and a Chandler, NorCal, Gardner, HxS, McBros or another dozen names built rifles, is the color of the paint, you have another thing coming. It is like thinking a Yugo is the same as a Porsche. I do not need to put any rifle in a vice to see if it willl shoot. And while your at it top your Yugo equivilent rifle with a scope made in China instead of a Tactical MK4.

On the Chandler Mount working on a standard Remington 700. I am not sure on this but I think they clip slot the receiver on the Chandler built guns(Like the Marines) and use that slot as another mounting point on the base. If that is the case the mount will only work with a clip slotted receiver. Cost to clip slot is about 150-200.00. More if painted black.LOL

On trigger: About 3lbs is about right. Less than that and you better use only that and pray you dont go bang when you were not ready to go bang.

Rick, have a nice vacation. If you see your daughter tell her to keep her head down.

I have been working with the XM107 from Barrett. Have not shot it at greatdistance yet, but so far I really like it. It is light, for a 50, and breaks down to the biggest piece being about 32" long. Barrett is sending a backpack designed for it. I will strap it on my back and see how the thing feels to pack when it gets here. Anyone have any favorite 50 calammo they would like to see tested in one? The M99 Barrett also came in. It is also fairly light(25lbs) and looks like a very promising less than $3000.00 50cal matchg rifle. All barretts now have Krieger bbls.

Gardner is working on a McBros based Navy 50cal. That one is just waiting on a KxP bbl.

I have been shooting a great deal of the BlackHills ammo lately. It is working out very well. Somebodt finally has come along to push Federal into getting the quality back into their ammo.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:58:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)


Mike; is right the Black Hills is good stuff. It is primarily remanf and shoots with anything else. Local PD shoots it exclusively except in certain cases where something like Talon's are needed.
2 cents worth
Trigger control; If a trigger makes much difference you are lacking in trigger training. Now that's a harsh statement, I know. But it takes a long time of training and shooting not to notice a bad trigger system on the target so don't slash your wrists yet. Everyone likes good triggers and there's nothing wrong with trying to have a good one. 4lbs is about max I set triggers but 2lbs is light for hunting or combat weapons. Lito' has fired the 2 oz Remington on those early rifles and that's an experience in triggers lemmetell you or I'd bet he has. Double action pistol training is a good way to gain control. If you can pick up a out of the box S&W or Colt handgun and cycle the cylinder 6 holes in 3 seconds or less without having the hammer fall on the chamber you have pretty fair control. You will be able to shoot Ak's Mini-14s and almost HK 91's without impairing your accuracy. IF you feel your trigger constantly needs improvment you probably have a trigger control (mental) problem. Have you noticed that you set your trigger in the shop and it feels fine then when you get to the range you can't believe how much harder it is. Discover the problem by looking in the mirror! Practice is the key.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 15:30:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Could someone supply me with contact info for the manufacturer of the Slope Doper? I could also use an opinion on the Shilen match barrels marketed by Brownells. Use on a long range(max 600 yards-long for me!) rem 700 sa in .308. Thanks.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 16:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.36)


Triggers,
Well someone has to take the other side of this argument, I guess that duty falls upon me.
I have no problemo, with recomendations of a 3.5 lb pull on a tactical rifle. I only wish that some of my milsurps were that light.
I have some that are close to 10 lbs. Yet, they pose no handicap when shooting from a solid bench rest position. Now, the snipers on this sight scoff at bench rest shooting yet they employ every device known to man to achieve benchrest stability in field conditions. Cheating SOB's, every one of them. It is when one does not have that stable platform that a light trigger can be of some help provided one spends a goodly amount of time practicing with a light trigger from non stable shooting positions. I know a few guys that could clean house with nothing more than a flintlock rifle at say, 100 yards offhand, because of the balance of these long-barreled rifles and the set triggers that they use. I have personally witnessed 2 inch 10 shot groups all in the 10 ring done with open sights. Try that with a 14 lb tactical rifle and a 3.5 lb trigger sometime.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.12)
Bill,

Here is the address on the side of my Slope Doper,

D.P. Rolls
RT 1 Box 128R
Burlington, WV 26710

I bought mine from Hugo at T.R.G.T., ( www.trgt.com )

Kush out!
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:43:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.32)


I saw a rifle in my local gun store this weekend that I am interested in purchasing. I have also seen it advertised in Shotgun News. I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with the SPRINGFIELD SAR-8 (.308) rifle
(H & K 91 copy). I don't know if this is the same Springfield Armory that makes handguns and used to make a SAR-8 rifle. The receiver, is stamped Springfield and also stamped Minnesota. I'm not looking for "sniper" type accuracy, just a fun rifle to shoot. Any information that could be provided about quality, accuracy, and reputation of the manufacturer would be appreciated.
 

K. Long
 

E-mail chewie@srv.net

K. Long <chewie@srv.net>
Idaho, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 23:22:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.7.221.51)


Have to agree on the 3.5 trigger pull. This rookie never paid attention to it until last year. Had my PSS set to 3.5 and it is perfect for me. In fact my smith told me that unless I agreed to not use it in the field he would not set it less than 3.5. Thanks to Lito's and other contributer's directions, gGoing to set all my hunting Rem's at 3.5 when I get around to it, all by my self.

I think anything less than 3.5 carries diminishing returns. If you have to worry about dropping the hammer before you want it to it is too light and you are wasting concentration. I tried the 3.5 with very cold, dang near frost bit hands and could still feel it well.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 01:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.42.52)


!!!!!!WANTED!!!!!!
$100 cash paid to any person that can offer a genuine, blank Ft. Benning U.S Army Sniper School Certificate, circa 1994 type. current issue may still be the same, this is acceptable too. a view of a scanned image will be required before purchase.
Thank You.

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)


!!!!!!WANTED!!!!!!
$100 cash paid to any person that can offer a genuine, blank Ft. Benning U.S Army Sniper School Certificate, circa 1994 type. current issue may still be the same, this is acceptable too. a view of a scanned image will be required before purchase.
Thank You.

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)


!!!!!!WANTED!!!!!!
$100 cash paid to any person that can offer a genuine, blank Ft. Benning U.S Army Sniper School Certificate, circa 1994 type. current issue may still be the same, this is acceptable too. a view of a scanned image will be required before purchase.
Thank You.

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:12:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)


CEASE FIRE!!

Certificate Seeker. Pound sand!!

Only reason this guy wants this certificate is to generate bogus credentials.

If you are a genuine graduate of the Benning course you contact them and get what you need.

Special Forces my ass!! Dude you're on the wrong website for this shit.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)


WOW! I never thought that I would get such a response for such an innocent request. Sorry that you feel that way, but in no way am I phony. I understand your caution. I indeed was a member of the Green Berets. My MOS was 18C, Special Forces Engineer Sargeant. I just finished in '96. I graduated from the Ft. Benning Sniper School in Nov. of '94. One of my trainers who I had a really good relationship with was Sgt. Burundi Davis who I am having a hard time getting in contact with to help me out with this matter. Unfortunately I had a flood last summer in my basement and a lot of photos and other papers got damaged, including my certificate. Fortunately my other diplomas were upstairs on my wall. I have been to and placed numerous calls to Benning and I'm told if it was within the last year or two then it would be easier to track down, seeing that it was six years ago, it is more difficult, I'm told. I just can't fight with them anymore.
At any rate, what more do i have to say. I'm sorry for the inconvience. I just figured that someone could help me out.
I really thought the whole military was family. I guess you really see the truth once you become a civilian again and just need a simple favor done.
Adam.

Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)


Certificate Seeker Info:

Dude!...you are asking for a load of trouble....

You are comming into the Internet from:

C:\>tracert 216.67.76.205

Tracing route to nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms host1.hunters.org [207.233.164.1]
2 10 ms 20 ms 10 ms s3-3-1.crva001.volocom.net
3 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms s2-0.crva003.volocom.net
4 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms 166.90.148.89
5 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms gigaethernet5-ashington1.Level3.net [
6 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms so-6-0-0.mp1.Washington1.level3.net [
7 140 ms 241 ms 30 ms so-0-0-0.mp1.Weehawken1.level3.net
8 20 ms 30 ms 20 ms so-3-0-0.mp2.Weehawken1.level3.net
9 20 ms 20 ms 30 ms so-1-0-0.mp1.NewYork1.level3.net
10 50 ms 60 ms 130 ms 216.67.13.138
11 60 ms 60 ms 81 ms nyc2-r1-boston.navipath.net
12 60 ms 71 ms 90 ms nas9.boston.navipath.net [216.67.0.9]
13 371 ms 370 ms 351 ms nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]

Most likely from the boston area - since dns naming that is done these days reflects equipment location too..

Navipath.net looks like your ISP....

Registrant:
NaviPath, Inc. (NAVIPATH2-DOM)
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US

Domain Name: NAVIPATH.NET

Administrative Contact:
Investigations, Abuse (IA1764-ORG) abuse@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Hostmaster, NaviPath (HN2394-ORG) hostmaster@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- - 978-933-6201
Billing Contact:
Billing, Domain (BD3887-ORG) billing@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201

Record last updated on 07-Apr-2000.
Record expires on 11-Feb-2001.
Record created on 11-Feb-2000.
Database last updated on 20-May-2000 06:08:39 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS.NAVINET.NET 216.67.14.5
DNS2.NAVINET.NET 216.67.31.254

They would probably not appreciate what you're doing.

More info if needed....

Ken :()
 
 

Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)


If you are who you say you are then you would know why you're getting hammered on this.

You'll be checkd out.
 

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)


OK sports fans Sarge needs some help. Am looking for good prices on Black Hills .308 168 gr match NON-moly,I know I can get Gold Medal from Hoplite for $320 something but I want to try Black Hills if the price is right. And a Camelback - the Storm model. If you have good prices on these items please e-mail me.

THANKS

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.173)


Whoa Ken......I am impressed. I have little idea of what you said but I think it's not too positive for "searcher."
There is a sniper site that debunks and exposes frauds and wannabe's. (general statment, no offense meant to anyone or insinuations made) Makes for real interesting reading. It's STA 2-23 and it's at geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/2102/frame.html, I think! When it comes to exposing these guys, he is a pit bull. I wouldn't want him on butt, no siree.
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Texas 77338, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:59:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.109.123)
Just a quick FYI. A Brit by the name of Bill Davison has opened and place West of Ft.Worth/Dallas call Tac Pro Shooting Center. I have not yet had a chance to go out there and s