CDC'          
Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 11:37:14 (ZULU)

At the risk of making this place 'politics country'... here's another little different take on the scotus case being an individual 'right'.

 http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin79.htm

 Stay safe

   Calvin

Calvin          
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 16:28:35 (ZULU)

The issue of chamber (barrel) temperature having an effect on velocity is a theoretical one because of the following.  It takes several minutes to raise the temperature of the powder inside of the case.  This is due to the fact that, first, powder is a piss-poor conductor of heat, and second, the case does not actually touch the chamber all over - contact with the chamber walls is at the bottom (6:00 o'clock) position.

But consider the practical matters... someone that heats up a barrel is shooting fast - like at match, a PD shoot, or in combat.

Putting combat aside.  If they are shooting fast, then the cases aren't in the chamber long enough to get hot :((

In the link, the comparison was between 45 and 95 degrees - that's a large spread, for either a shooter at a match or a dog shoot.

So I think, while it is "interesting", it's application is limited.

At most all shooting endeavors that require long range accuracy AND rapid fire, it will be the ambient temperature of the cartridge that will rule the situation.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 17:28:28 (ZULU)

I've seen it mentioned that during a forced pause at a match that it's worth extracting and putting aside a chambered round to avoid it heating up any differently that it's siblings.  Makes sense to me - keeping all variables as close as possible is a "good thing" ;-)

rod regier          
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 5, 2008, at 00:23:06 (ZULU)

Just received this from The Nat'l Shooting Sports Foundation:

N.Y. STATE SENATOR'S POLL ON MICROSTAMPING . . . New York State Sen. Dale Volker's Web site is hosting a poll concerning firearms microstamping, legislation that would require manufacturers to micro laser engrave, in two separate locations, the gun's make, model and serial number so, in theory, that information would be imprinted on any cartridge casing expelled from the firearm. NSSF is encouraging Bullet Points readers to visit the Web site and voice their opposition to microstamping legislation by voting "NO."  Learn more about the dangers of firearms microstamping legislation at:

http://nssf.org/media/FactSheets/Microstamping.cfm  

If I did it right you can click on my name or else go here:

http://www.senatorvolker.com/59/default.aspx

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway          
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, May 5, 2008, at 23:01:32 (ZULU)

Do you or have you had any contact with the Chris Thomas at Premier? With your relationship with them in the past I did'nt know if you would have any info or insight into their new scope production? I'm sure it will be more than capable!

Travis,

Your comment on young girls and their "worldly attire" is noted, but just to give you some hope there are still a remnent of godly Apostolic young ladies who hold holiness to a high standard.

Scott F.          
Hillbillyland, - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 02:39:26 (ZULU)

   I'm afraid you might have mistaken me. Lookin' good ain't a sin. I was once engaged to a Mormon girl who was SMOKING HOT, but wouldn't wear anything but scrubs and sweats outside the house because her culture insisted that she was insiting men toward sinful thoughts if she looked good. Her God given beauty was nothing to be embarassed of. That was bullshit.

   I hate to see women completely covered year round. It just bugs the shit out of me when folks encourage their daughters to grow up too fast.

   We all tell our kids to drive in a safe and sane manner. If you allow them to "dress" their car with a pair of 650 CFM Holleys, Hooker headers, a nitrous setup and slicks, you kinda have to expect them to start racing before they're ready. If you allow your little girl to dress like a 23 year old who's lookin' for a man, don't be surprised if she's lookin' for a man.

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 11:35:10 (ZULU)

Al Qaeda behind attack on Karzai, spy chief says

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USISL13319720080504

Sun May 4, 2008 12:44pm EDT

By Sayed Salahuddin

KABUL (Reuters) - Al Qaeda in Pakistan was behind last week's assassination attempt on Afghan President Hamid Karzai, Afghanistan's intelligence chief said on Sunday.

The head of Afghanistan's National Directorate of Security, Amrullah Saleh, said foreign governments should put pressure on Pakistan to destroy militant bases within its borders.

Taliban gunmen fired rocket-propelled grenades and small arms at a state parade last Sunday, sending Karzai, his cabinet and military top brass as well as foreign diplomats diving for cover.

Three people were shot dead before Afghan troops killed three Taliban attackers.

Investigations by Afghan security forces showed that at least two officials from the defense and interior ministries were involved in the attack, Saleh said. The officials suspected of involvement have been arrested in recent days.

But he added they had links with al Qaeda in Miramshah, Pakistan's tribal region near the border with Afghanistan, and branded the network the mastermind of the attack, the most brazen by the Taliban since their ouster in 2001.

"Al Qaeda's role and involvement in the attack is very clear," Saleh told a news conference.

"They have bases (in Pakistan). They are supplied financially and logistically. They receive very sophisticated training ... We have always said that pressure on their bases, combined with our intelligence can destroy them," he added.

He said with regret there was "little and sometimes no pressure" on the militants training bases, indirectly referring to Pakistan.

While the Taliban have carried out sporadic suicide bombings in Kabul before, last week's attack, together with a guerrilla-style assault on a five-star hotel in the capital in January, indicate a more sophisticated mode of attack.

The Taliban have vowed to target Kabul this year as part of their campaign to overthrow Karzai's government and drive out the more than 55,000 foreign troops stationed in the country.

Pakistan itself which has seen attacks by militants over the past year says it does all it can to crush al Qaeda and other militants who fled there after the U.S.-led invasion that toppled Taliban's government in Afghanistan in 2001.

rod regier          
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 16:37:00 (ZULU)

I probably outta click your link and learn more.  I hear this debate on the periphery, assume facts not in evidence, and form my opinion without any more efforts.  Opinion:  Another hare-brained idea from the folks who brought us the miracle investment opportunity known as social security.  Yihaa.  

The economy is steadying up; but the underlying problems still exist.  For now, holders of US debt have decided that action to shore up the greenback is smarter than an all out dumping.  But the facts remain that debt is out there in mountains; we are writing more bad checks as we move forward, and the old 1-yr treasury is back in an attempt to sell our red ink (longer term bonds sat on the shelf, ignored by the market).  In other words, our efforts thus far are solely delaying actions--and the delay is down to 12 months at a time:))  

There is another theory:  If we are in debt to the world for a large fraction of GDP, they own us.  If we are in debt for a sizeable chunk of the entire market value of world trade, we kinda own them.  That's a twist on a (almost) famous quote...

Joe M          
Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 19:32:31 (ZULU)

>"Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "micro-stamping" a raised area on the breach that, theoretically, imprints data on the fired case?  If so, and if widely known, what would prevent a bad guy from filing off the offending protrusion?"<

Yup...

The only two places where mocrostamping would work in on the bolt face and the chamber walls.  Either place is easy to polish with #800 carbide paper and some oil - mirror smooth in 5 minutes.

I have polished the bolt face on several on my rifles, because the tool marks made it hard to read primer signs... you can comb your hair in the fired primers.

Most states are looking at micro stamping bullets instead of guns, because it is so easy to file off the micro stuff.

>"And outta curiosity, how many guns are in existance right this minute--without microstamps?  "<

About 600,000,000 firearms...

They would NEVER be able to keep up with the paperwork - to list the owners of bullets, by their serial numbers for 4 to 5 BILLION bullets a year... and then there are those pesky handloaders, and you can't make them do diddley squat!

And the bullet casters, there are a bunch of bums if I ever saw them - they will sit there all night putting 12 digit (X00,000,000,000) micro numbers on their bullets - sure they will...

... Hmmm and the list gets longer and longer.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 23:21:09 (ZULU)

CDC'          
Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 00:24:27 (ZULU)

As far as wimmen being covered up year 'round, hey, welcome to Afghanistan.  Buncha little, blue toadstools running around.  Little drogue-chutes running around with shoes under them.  Funny as hell.

Charles S. Hunt          
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 02:47:56 (ZULU)

As 'lito so aptly put it "yup".  Another way is to engrave the info on the point of the firing pin so it is transferred to the primer when the round is fired. This can also be removed by polishing.  The liberal loonies sure come up with some "great" ideas.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway          
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 03:28:19 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 06:11:54 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt          
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 08:42:39 (ZULU)

UnPat

UnPat          
Wi., USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 08:59:56 (ZULU)

No matter what the subject, when all is said and done, we get back to what's important!

In the last few months, a bill for ammo identification has popped up in a dozen states all over the country (at the same time)...

... I figured that it was "Sarah & Friends Co." at work, cuz the wording of the bills was the same.

But it turns out that a company named "Ammunition Accountably" has just gotten the patents for ID'ing bullets, cases, and yo' momma!.. and I guess they think they can make a killing with royalties on each bullet so numbered, and each firearm so numbered.

God, the world's filled with whores...

... without titties (see I told you it always gets back to "you know what" :)))

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 14:05:04 (ZULU)

Click. What a dumbshit. You might wanna show this and the video of the guy in dreadlocks to the next idiot that tells you about how cops know all about guns.

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 23:56:35 (ZULU)

Daniel M. Hallman          
Abilene, Texas, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 00:47:17 (ZULU)

The vast majority of Savages have excellent barrels, some of the best available on a factory rifle.  It shouldn't need to be firelapped to have a good finish.

I tried JBs bore paste on my used 110FP not long after I picked it up and got some loads dialed in.  My groups opened up to over an inch until I got +/- 100 rounds down the tube and then the groups settled back in, with no overall improvement.

Every rifle is a little different, but I think the bottom line is that you should go minimal.....break it in right and test it.  If it doesn't shoot well then start looking at options to tweak it.

As far as break in, plain old ball ammo will work just fine.  With a proper break in, your Savage should have excellent accuracy.  

My opinion only, YMMV, etc.  Good luck!

Geoff M          
WI, USA - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 02:12:10 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 02:59:13 (ZULU)

jc

jc          
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 05:06:11 (ZULU)

Don't waste your time with "breaking in a barrel", you cannot "break in" hard steel with soft copper.

... and never shoot a bullet coated with grinding compound down your barrel.  That should be obvious, no matter what the sales hustlers say.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 17:40:35 (ZULU)

I've been in the financial pages too much--I should really read actual legislation from time to time:))  

(hey--time is not one of my problems)

Joe M          
Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 17:41:58 (ZULU)

From a US Optics add...

>"A large EREK knob (Erector Repositioning Elevation Knob) that is low profile and has a large diameter makes elevation adjustments quick and easy,"<

OK, I give up!!  Bartender, I'll take two DDR&LJs please ;)

Even the old man, "Doctor" JW is turning over in his grave :((((

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 20:02:18 (ZULU)

Daniel M. Hallman          
Abilene, Texas, United states - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 21:27:10 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 22:42:24 (ZULU)

Daniel M. Hallman          
Abilene, Texas, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 23:19:49 (ZULU)

Be careful when using different metal solvents.  Drying the bore between is good, but you might still have residues that could interact.

A bore guide keeps most of the contamination out of the chamber, but cleaning the chamber some after finishing with the bore guide is a good idea.  In .308 Win I use .50 cal nylon brushes to help with cleaning the chamber.  Price is right, you can get 12 packs from Brownells and other sources.

rod regier          
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 02:30:56 (ZULU)

Your questions are really more suited to "http://www.benchrest.com/".  They love questions like these - they will give you 41 pages of opinions on how to clean your riffle and no two will be the same!!

You are being absolutely anal about a fairly simple chore - about as complicated as doing the dishes.

I can't believe that you are using FOUR cleaners.

Bartender, I need another DDR&LJ!!

Daniel - it's a SAVAGE... not some $6,500 1,000yd benchrest rifle.  Get it into perspective.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 02:50:37 (ZULU)

When I get home, I run several patches of hoppes, then one with isopropyl alcohol, then a dry patch.  I use an old bore brush to run the patches... pulling them with a coated rod from breach to muzzle.  The last patch out is still showing some carbon...I just don't spend enough time cleaning to get the patches coming out clean.

Every ten or so trips to the range... I'll plug the barrel and let some hoppes soak for a couple hours.  I then clean normally.

It seams to work for me and leaves me lots of time to obsess on other things.  Learned it all on the roster...smart fellers those guys.

medicjim          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 03:23:06 (ZULU)

If anybody has any comments on those two long shooting posts, please post them.  You guys know a lot about this stuff.  

I'm not lecturing anyone here.  Very little of this is mine.  Most was picked up from books, trainers, magazines and here.  Rick would recognize his words in some of it.  

Most of this sounds categorical and absolute.  It isn't.  It is written this way for brevity.  Disagreement or comment is welcome.

I got a couple of e-mails requesting that the notes be posted ASAP.  I'm cleaning them up a little at a time.  

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When in shooting position I follow this checklist:

Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags.

Zero cant.

Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact.

Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim.  

Mentally isolate crosshair/POA picture and pad of right index fingertip.  Feel the fingertip on the trigger. You are conscious of only your crosshair/POA picture and your fingertip on the trigger.

Release as much air as wants to go.

Desired sight picture causes SECOND JOINT in right index finger to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK.

Consciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin.

Forward tension on the bipod.  My half-baked theory is that a lot of long range horizontal dispersion blamed on missed wind calls aren't due to missed wind calls at all.  The problem is rifle cant.

"Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags."

Your body should be directly behind the rifle.  Butt of rifle pulled into shoulder by large muscles in back.  Don't pull hard enough to introduce any muscular strain.  It's important to use the large back muscles because the harder a muscle works, the more it induces oscillation.  Oscillation=wobble.  Large muscles strain less than small muscles.  The rifle is not gripped by the right hand.  The three fingers not pulling the trigger are curled but do not grip the rifle.  If you grip, those three fingers move sympathetically as the trigger is pressed.  Also, if you grip the rifle, the small muscles in the forearm strain.  Muscular strain introduces oscillation.

I'm familiar with two cases for the use of the left hand in the bipod prone position.  One is the "beanie baby prone" as shown to me by Mike Miller.  The other is the shooting glove technique described on this board by Ranger Rick.  Rick's instructions would be worth looking up if anybody is actually reading this and is interested.

The right (duh) cheek is placed on the comb at the exact same place every time.  The muscles in the back of the neck are relaxed to allow the weight of the shooter's head to completely rest on the rifle.  This does three (maybe) important things;  It increases the effective weight of the rifle thus reduces recoil A LOT, it keeps the rifle from getting a running start before it whacks you in the face and it makes the effective weight of the rifle more uniform.

The last two points are worth considering.  You don't want the rifle to whack you in the face.  If it does, your body will involuntarily learn to anticipate the shot.  Anticipation interferes with the fundamentally important later step of "seeing the crosshairs on the target through the fall of the firing pin".  The Rooskies did a lot of research in this area.

You want a uniform effective rifle weight (did I just make that up?) because the boolet leaves the riffle while the riffle is in recoil.  Different riffle weight=different point in recoil arc at which boolet leaves the barrel = vertical stringing.

The above list included, "Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact."

It is important that the shooter not use his right hand to cheat the crosshairs onto the point of aim.  One reason is that hand tension introduces oscillation.  Another very important reason is that, between the time the sear breaks and the time the bullet leaves the barrel, the recoil moves the barrel toward the natural point of aim.  If your natural point of aim and your actual point of aim are the same, no error is introduced.

The shooter checks NPA is by closing his eyes, relaxing his body then opening his eyes.  If the crosshairs are still on the desired point of aim, IF THE RIFLE ISN'T CANTED, and if the shooter has done his dry-firing homework, the NPA should be good.  The part dry-firing plays will be addressed later.

The next step is, "Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim."

As you breathe, the crosshairs oscillate between 6:00 and 12:00.  When your breathing pauses, the oscillations slow dramatically for a couple of seconds until most of the remaining oscillations are caused by the beating of your heart.  The crosshairs still move between 6:00 and 12:00 but they move much less and they move very regularly for, oh, 6 to 12 seconds more or less.  At very near 6:00 the crosshairs pause.  That's where you want your point of aim.  After that interval, the tension in your muscles and the body's desire to breathe cause an increase in the amplitude of the oscillations.

So there's your NPA and the interval within which you should press your trigger.  

"Mentally isolate crosshair/point of aim (POA) picture and pad of right index fingertip.  Feel the fingertip on the trigger."

You see/visualize the exact sight picture that presses the trigger.  Feel the right finger tip very lightly touching the trigger.  

"Release as much air as wants to go."

Nothing to add.

"Desired sight picture causes second joint in right index finger..."

Repeat;  The sight picture presses the trigger.   While dry firing, snap every snap like your life depends on it (Practice makes permanent.  Only perfect practice makes perfect.) you develop a neural pathway between the correct sight picture and the finger tip.  You develop a conditioned response to the right sight picture.  When you see what you want to see, your finger moves automatically.  Use the conditioned response.  For the important shots the temptation is to make a conscious effort.  Conscious effort inhibits conditioned response.  That is called "choking".  If your dry firing was done correctly, you can trust your "Sight picture presses trigger" reflex.  If your dry firing was sloppy, you have multiple ways to screw up.

"... to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK."

As mentioned earlier, the three fingers on the right hand that let the shoulder muscles pull the rifle gently into the shoulder are curled but don't grip.  When pressing the trigger, the trigger finger bends ONLY at the second knuckle from the tip.  If you hold your right hand in the described position and simulate pressing the trigger you will see that the pad of the fingertip comes back with less lateral motion than if you curl the trigger finger.

"Connsciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin."

The interval between pressing the trigger and the fall of the firing pin is vital and is part of your eye/trigger/follow through conditioned response.  While dry firing, practice seeing the correct sight picture through the fall of the firing pin.  If the crosshairs move, either your NPA or your trigger press was wrong.  

Flinching will screw this up.  

We'll define a flinch as any reaction to or anticipation of the trigger press that interferes with the shooter seeing the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin.  A flinch is a conditioned response that develops from an unconditioned reflex.

"Press->bang->blink and tighten up

becomes "press->blink and tighten up."

You remember Pavlov's dog.  Same deal.

To decondition yourself, you dryfire like your life depends on every shot then shoot a bunch with a wimpy rifle that feels like your real rifle.  

"Freezing on the trigger" is a similar problem.  That condition is caused by fear of a bad shot.  We all know the feeling of putting nine straight in the same hole then freezing on the tenth shot because we don't want to screw up the string.  We are making a conscious effort to get the last shot right.  But conscious effort inhibits conditioned response.  If, during dry firing, we have programmed in the firing sequence we like, we should let it work. The rational brain wants to take over.  Fighting the rational brain only makes it worse.  Just ignore it.  Go into the silence. Be interested in seeing and feeling what you need to see and feel during the firing sequence and let it happen like you have programmed it to happen.  

Ommmm....

As you go to sleep, visualize every step in the sequence.  If you have trouble visualizing a step, you haven't mastered it.

CDC'          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 04:13:18 (ZULU)

Travis: Duuuuude..... I surf the web... but nowhere NEAR what (or WHERE) you do..

Duman          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 04:54:41 (ZULU)

Daniel- Breaking in the barrel is critical for the accuracy potential and lifespan of the barrel. Don't listen to Lito he just talks alot but doesn't know much and we let him hang out here 'cuz he's a nice enough old guy. Here is a video from a registered professional that goes into great detail showing the correct procedure. Pay close attention and listen carefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg

Marc

MarcS          
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 06:16:35 (ZULU)

-

I got out shootin' on Tuesday for the first time this year - weather has been shitty - winter until two weeks ago, and now everything is in bloom, the trees are all full of flowers, and the range was beautiful...

The range is under another "attack" by a homeowner that wants to raise his property values by getting the range closed.

So the asshole puts a hole in the garage, and then puts a 50 cal bullet on the floor and calls the state police to report a stray shot from the range.

Never mind the minor point that the hole is cleanly drilled with a 1/2" drill from Home Depot, and never mind the minor point that the bullet was from mail order or a souvenir shop and had no rifling marks on it and the point is not damaged, and never mind the minor point that there is a small mountain as a backstop and if the bullet was shot high enough to clear the mountain, it would have sailed over his house about 3,000 feet high and landed 4 miles away...

... the fuckin' asshole drills the hole on the wrong side of the house.

Our range is west of his house, but he drills the hole on the south side - why?? - well, because that's the side where his garage is, and he doesn't want to drill into the GOOD side of the house, you dummies!!

... Duh. If this was an I/Q test... he hit 12!!

:))))

So the range is "O-fish-ully" closed today, while all the state police have a forensics investigation, take color pictures, make angular measurements, GPS measurements, take more color pictures (and maybe some Black & white pictures), take plaster casts of all foot prints found in the woods in the 1.3 miles to the "victims" house, and then turn all the "evidence" over to the military to see if the bullet could have come from the riffle range (without rifling on it!!)

-

Anyway, I went to the range on Tuesday, and dragged along seven sticks - so now I have more fresh meat for "par deux" of the barrel cleaning experiment.

But I made some observations that are worthy of mention...

I have this 6mmBR that I mentioned a few years ago.  It is the craziest rifle I have - Remington gets $3,800 for them, made up special order.

Some years back, I saw a note posted on the bulletin board at my range for a Rem "6mm Rem 40X" for sale for $900.  It seemed high for a 50+ year old rifle, which is probably why no one had answered the add - it had been up for two weeks.

I thought it was an old "40X" from the 50's, and not the 40-XB", so I thought I might talk the guy down and get it for the action.

I went to the guys house, and he's a real arrogant snot ball yuppy, with more money than brains...

... and he brings it out (in the box) and it is a brand new, never even had a scope mounted on it, 40-XBBR Remington Benchrest rifle from the custom shop, with a 2 oz trigger!!

And it's not 6mm Rem - it's 6mmBR!!!  And he has two boxes of factory ammo(??).

He says that he special ordered it through his "buddy" that has an FFL, and he can't get the bullets to go into it.  He says that he called Remington, and after a lot of screaming at them over the phone, they told him that the gun was too advanced for his level of skills (it was a tight neck, .266" chamber, and the ammo was a full .272" neck case).

So he took it to his friend, and the friend couldn't take it back cuz he wasn't a real gun shop, and he had special ordered it.

So this guy just wanted out of the gun.

Well, I whined and cried about the bad barrel and how I would have to get a new barrel for it "cuz it was no good, because the bullets didn't go into it", and I got the rifle for $700... then I sold the McMillen BR stock, and put on a freebee 700 Laminated Varmint Special stock that had been sitting in the corner.

I'm into it for $450 ;)

It shot OK, but never great - it looked like it wanted to shoot, but I would always get fliers that shouldn't have happened.  I thought it might be the stock, because it didn't fit me worth a damn, and my head was up in the air when shooting ;).

So this winter, I sold the Varmint Special stock on the net for $135, and bought a Boyd's Heavy varmint with a high rollover cheek piece stock for $185, and bedded it with "Steel Bed" epoxy.

So at this point I'm into the rifle for a whoppin' $485!!!!  I took it out Tuesday and one group after another, tiny itty bitty ragged holes.  It's a winner.  I feel like a kid at Christmas.

But the point is - if the stock don't fit - you will never reach the potential of the riffle.

-

Some notes on Chronographs...

On another site, a guy asked "How do you know when you have put in too much powder in a load?".

He gets an answer that goes something like, "When you increase your powder, but you get a minor increase in velocity, you have reached max load".

Now... since the original question was very (VERY) basic, it is fair to assume that the person had little or no experence, so why would the guy have a chrono?? ((but I digress)...

... the thread took off on "... there is no such thing and can't happen", can too, can not, can too, can not, can too...

Actually, I "have" seen this effect, but it is a statistical anomaly. If you repeat the string, it is gone. It comes from the variances in sampling 5 shot groups.

Here's the problem with that "wives tale".

When you add more powder, you:

1 - Reduce the air space in the case.

2 - Increase the surface area of the burning stuff.

1 + 2 = you generate more gas that goes into less space, and since the "Stuff" is progressive burning, it raises pressure faster.

More pressure pushes harder on the bullet thing - so like all inert masses, the more pressure on it, the more faster it goes - there are NO exception to these basic rules of guns.

If you have a ES of 30, then, on average, you will have a velocity distribution all through out the 30fps range, like 3000, 3010, 3015, 3020, 3030. For a mean of 3015.

Then we add .x grains of powder, and we "should" get a distribution statistics of five rounds at (maybe) 3030, 3040, 3045, 3050, 3060, for a mean average of 3045, or 30~ish fps faster.

But, statistics also allow a distribution statistics of five rounds to be 3030, 3032, 3031, 3034, 3032, and the mean of these is 3031.8... so we say, "Like WOW man, I only got 16.8 fps change, so therefore... bla bla bla..."

But if you run the same string over again, you will never get the same figures.

On two occasions, I have run strings and come up with five velocities that were all the same, id est, 3407, 3407, 3407, 3407, 3407... so a ES of "0", and an SD of "0".

Do you think I'm dumb enough to think I have discovered the best load in the world - not this puppy. Run the same loads (weighed) in the same cases, and it will come out with an ES and SD just like the rest of the loads in the test base.

It is easy to be seduced by those magical numbers that pop out of the chronographs - I have been shooting over chrono's since the late 50s... I now believe about 80% of what they say.

The sun light angle changes, and your 3560fps load is now 3482, or 3795... Duh!

I had a long talk with Ken Oehler about 7 years ago about the absolute accuracy of chronos - mostly the state of the industry, not limited to his stuff.

It was an interesting conversation - most people absolutely believe the numbers that come out of a chrono like they were numbers coming from the National Bureau of Standards.

But they are not - there is no reasonable or practical way to calibrate a chrono, or check it's state of accuracy, and they ALL use the same $2, 4Mhz clock chip that is made in some country where you have to boil the water before you drink it.

The velocities on the same loads vary by the lighting, where the bullet flies through the window, and what the angle the bullet makes over the windows... yet, most shooters think that 3204 in the little window means absolutely, positively, irrevocably, 3204.000000000 feet per second.

It does NOT - Such beliefs are sheer fantasy.

There is accuracy, and repeatability.

If you want accuracy, you must be able to calibrate the chrono to some known standard - you can't!!

If you want repeatability, you must have a reliable light source with a positive ON/OFF window - as the current chronos work, the circuit board "senses" a soft, MINOR, change in the screen current, because the bullet shape is soft, and the light source is broad. There is no instantaneous on/off... so there is no absolute point that the chrono thinks the bullet is there - it's kinda like the chrono starts getting a hint that something is changing, then at some point, says, "Self, I think a bullet is going through the gate, so maybe we ought to start timing."

In order to be absolute, the light sheet must be thin (on the order of 1-ish millimeter), and the shadow cast must turn off and on completely - that is, from full light to full dark when the point of the bullet enters the sensing zone.  Instead of a ramp on the detector circuit cell voltage, it must produce a square wave.

None of this is practical in a small unit that you can set up at the range.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 11:55:17 (ZULU)

Great post.

CDC'          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 13:27:17 (ZULU)

Took my office to the local gun range by SF, everyone had a blast. Going to take them once more but we will be shooting rifles next :-) Converting one at a time.

Darren          
Bay Area, CA, USA - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:12:49 (ZULU)

You would be amazed at the number of engineers, including Ph.D.s, that fall into that type of number trap.  

Increasing the clock speed won't help, but actually will increase the variation of the reported measurement.  The clock signals in microprocessors look like sine waves, not square waves.  The trigger point will always have some uncertainty around it as well, no matter how thin the light screen.

But... it's still a whole lotta fun!

Duman          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:32:22 (ZULU)

Anyone that does that to a rifle does a disservice to the shooting community.  We've all had mishaps and dinged up a rifle or two, but to intentionally trash a new rifle shows the world that shooters are a bunch of slobs.

I'm not directing this at you, but at the guys that video taped themselves behaving badly.

Duman          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:39:04 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on Chronographs that was all new to me.

CDC that was good stuff.

Marc

MarcS          
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:44:05 (ZULU)

I would have helped the guy if he said he was gonna sell it because he didn't understand it, and needed help.

But, like all us, I have my prejudices, and one of them is people that throw money at others like it was a weapon.

The guy was in his early thirties and was the stereotype yuppy - lived in a new condo, with the required BMW in the drive - and there wasn't a piece of furniture in the place that was more than a year old.

So he decided he wanted "the best varmint rifle" and threw money at it.  So I have no mercy, and enjoyed cleaning his clock.

-

Duman...

>"Increasing the clock speed won't help, but actually will increase the variation of the reported measurement.  The clock signals in microprocessors look like sine waves, not square waves.  The trigger point will always have some uncertainty around it as well, no matter how thin the light screen.

But... it's still a whole lotta fun!"<

I wasn't implying that increasing the clock speed would make things more accurate.

In a chrono, the clock oscillator just drives the engine - it is not a sine wave, it is a square wave "flip/flop" osscillator.

But the detector circuit is a DC voltage through fast response cells, and changes in the DC voltage are ramps, similar to the leading and trailing edge of a sine wave, so there is no "exact" point that the circuit decides to start counting.

The sharper you can make that ramp, the more accurate the chronograph.

If you can make a system that has a ramp so fast, (as to appear as a square wave) you will reach the theoretical limits of the clock, which would be 2 parts in 4,000,000, or something on the order of 1/10th of an inch for a 4,000 fps bullet.

But we are light years away from that kind of accuracy.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 17:47:50 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 20:13:13 (ZULU)

Daniel M. Hallman          
Abilene, Texas, United States - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 21:48:34 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 21:55:50 (ZULU)

Marc,

   That guy's a tool.

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:03:33 (ZULU)

Whoa!

I read that as refering to 'Lito whether you meant it to or not; and that statement negates any positive attributes you bring just from its sheer ignorance.  Ya see, to make such a judgment call based on one little post that countered your preconceived notions---well, that isn't the heights of intellectual curiosity, know whud I mean?  Let's assume that I too am no newby to weapons...in fact, heck, let's assume I wore a silly green hat and made a living based on weapons' handling skills.  In short, I knew some things.

...and still learned as much from Lito as I did from anyone else, if not more.  

Know-it-alls sometimes do.  A wise fella would recognize them when he finds one---as rare as it may be.   But even the less wise would benefit from this slight shred of wisdom:  better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...

Joe M          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:08:14 (ZULU)

>"I'm no "CHERRY" when it comes to weapons,"<

Anyone that asks questions like -

>"I was wondering if anyone has used the David Tubb's loaded Final Finish ammunition to break in a new bbl? If so what do you think about the results? Also would it be ok to use surplus FMJ ammo to break the barrel in instead of the Federal 168 gr. match ammo that I am going to use in this rifle ( same ammo that I use in my FAL and it shoots great)?"<

... is CHERRY - you are as green as it gets.  My 16 year old son knows the answers to your questions.

>"... not looking to get slammed by some old know it all fart."<

You were NOT slammed by me... I can assure you of that.

This is a long time group - most of the guys here have been shooting together for a long time - many are military or LE, most have long experence.  While many are long range match shooters of one kind or another, none of us are impressed by the kind of anal talk that BR shooters get involved every day.

We are a bit more practical than that.

There are folks that come here and think we are impressed by all the "anal" crap, like their precious way the clean their barrels, how many strokes the use with their rods, and how many different cleaners they use, and the black magic rituals they go through in putting their rifle in the case.

This group is not impressed by that stuff.  No one here gives a crap about how you carefully withdraw your cleaning brush from the barrel, and use a rod with a swivel so the brush follows the rifling... I mean that.  Your "stuff" is childish.

I didn't slam you, I just recommended that you go to a site where that stuff is appreciated.  Those guys can argue for DAYS on whether you should push the cleaning rod or "pull it" ;)

People at benchrest.com love that kind of stuff, and you should be talking to people that can answer your questions, and appreciates your diligence and compulsions.

No one here gives a crap.

The reason I say this is that we have discovered over the years that when someone new starts these kinds of threads, if they take off for whatever reason, most of the knowledgeable shooters just drift away, and the site dies... for weeks, or sometimes much longer like months, and it takes a long time to get them back.

I really hate that.

If you want to participate, why don't you start a thread that actually moves the art of long range shooting FORWARDS, instead of the same ol' thread on "how I use my rod" :))).

Take that from an old fart to a young "Cherry" snot ball. ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:11:12 (ZULU)

I agree with you.  I think we're on the same page.

Duman          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:23:16 (ZULU)

I have thought a lot about the chrono problems, and actually came with a few designs for better gates (in the endless quest to get rich ;), but the biggest problem is the end user - most guys just want to know "about" how fast their bullets are going.

Even the CED and Oehler 35 chrono's had hard competition from the $99 Pacts, so how much can you get for a lab grade unit.

Plus Oehler found that they had more expense with the smaller units than the professional units, because the end users for the 33 and 35 were mostly people that couldn't be trusted with sharp toys or can't get milk out of a bottle.  So Oehler had a full time phone person to answer questions 8 hours a day.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:38:59 (ZULU)

Now, THERE's a job I wouldn't do!

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:58:48 (ZULU)

Being anal, looking after the little things, is all fine and well so long as you know what it's all worth when you light up your FPF. That would be no time to be looking at a kestrel for accurate wind readings:))  Tactical shooting and BR is the same only from the press of the trigger to the follow thru; and even that will differ immensely as to 'where" those actions take place.  

A sniper deals with whatever variables gets thrown at him---a bench shooter will stay home on a rainy day:))

Sometimes we forget the difference ourselves...

Joe M          
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 23:19:36 (ZULU)

However, once I go shoot that load out to, say, 1000 yards, and put the conditions and bullet data into my ballistic program(s), I always find that I have to tune the ballistic program so that its output matches my shooting data.

Given that, I don't worry too much about the accuracy of the chronograph, particular since the velocity of any particular shot is unlikely to be exactly the average - and some will be quite different.

If I can get the ballistic program to give me an idea of where to start at ranges out past 700 yards, I'm a happy camper.

Lindy          
On the road in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 01:09:59 (ZULU)

Daniel........

Very few of us have paid the dues long enough to call Lito an old know it all fart. Even though he actually is an old know it all fart you aren't qualified to opine that. Those of us on this site that are long in the tooth don't appreciate that shit from a newbie. Nuff said............

Prepping LC brass......

Picked up 2500 rounds of once fired that didn't look too bad for machine gun brass......still nasty, boring and tedious. Just cleaned and deprimed 1250 and getting ready to move on to pocket swaging. There isn't enough beer in the world to make this enjoyable. I swaged and uniformed the pocket on a piece and was amazed at how shallow those pockets are.....lots of brass coming out of those holes with the Sinclair tool.

Chrono country......

I have a Oehler. I likes it but it can be finicky with sun and clouds passing over. The only reason I use it is to get a general idea of velocity so I don't hit the berm or go over the target at Butner.......very embarassing having to chase sighters.

Waiting for the next storms due in a couple of hours, Bolt tired and out!

Bolt          
Tornado alley.........., NC, - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:13:12 (ZULU)

   Are you out in western Kansas? My father in law told me you guys were getting it rough over there last night. It's just humid as hell, down near Mulvane. Plenty of skeeters, if any of you wanna come get 'em.

   If you are in need of a good fly spray for the dogs and horses, get a product called "Flicks". It's even better than Pyranha, and it's all organic. I use it on the boy and myself. Has a minty smell, and it's a little sticky, but when you spray it on a fly, they fall over. DRT. Lasts all day, and water soluable.

Travis Morgan          
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:24:31 (ZULU)

Look for an engine with cast iron cylinder and a rep for long, cool running.  I've become a big fan of Yamaha and everyone knows the Kawi motors are superb as well.

medicjim          
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:28:31 (ZULU)

What's your take on Honda generators?

Duman          
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 04:38:29 (ZULU)

Pablo is not some "old know-it-all fart."  He is some "know-it-all old fart."

There is a difference.  Get it right.  

CDC'          
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 04:57:51 (ZULU)

Hey I'll throw my 25+ years experience with small motors in general and generators in particular... Hondas are good to go as are the yammerhammers and kawi's. I kinda lean towards the kawi's but they are not as supportable as the hondas. There really is not much difference.

Biggest problem with any generator that is not used everyday is fuel.

You have to have some way of keeping the fuel 'fresh'. The 'new' reformulated crap is only good for about 30 days or so. I use a product called 'stabil' that works quite well. I just started my old gravely convertible after 5 or so months on the first wrap of the starter rope..

What ever you have it pays off to start it at least once a month and get it up to operating temp just to get the condensation out. As a bonus you have the knowledge that your stuff runs...

Just some musing from someone who has made his living from operating small motors day in and day out...

 Stay safe

   Calvin  

Calvin          
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 12:31:28 (ZULU)

The thing that got me with honda was about ten years when they introduced an inferior line of motors... they first were distinguishable with black plastic cases vs the red and white metal shells of the quality units... Lately, I've seen the crap engines with all manner of case, including red plastic that looks very much like the old, quality setups.  You need to be very careful with Hondas,, because their lower line of motors are crap....the high end line is still good to go...just my opinion.

medicjim          
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 14:30:39 (ZULU)

For a low ongoing demand fixed installation setup, I would look at something that can be run on propane.  Good fuel cost, long fuel shelf life.  I've read that kind of setup is popular for new high-end homes in Florida, where planning for the inevitable hurricane power interruptions is now more prevalent.

rod regier          
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 16:04:18 (ZULU)

It is super quiet - I bought it for ham radio field day and I can run it on the porch and not hear it while siting in the living room 15 feet away, through just a glass door.

I have to second the comments about "Stabil"... I let it sit with gas in it one winter, and the evaporated gas gummed up the whole carb, floats, jets, needles etc... a full take down and clean in an ultrasonic cleaner with solvent for several hours to get the gum/varnish like stuff out.

Now I keep a 5 gal GI can gas with Stabil in it, and I run the gen dry when I use it.

Last year I was looking at Hondas and the current ones don't look as good.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 17:33:44 (ZULU)

CDC, that is a great idea. Would be glad to help. Beanie Baby Prone. Did I call it that? LOL  I use that for range alot  but in field I still like my left hand under rear of stock

On cleaning a rifle. I have never actually cleaned one but if I did it would probably go something like this

1. Take one piece cleaning rod and put on eitehr used bore brush or one size smaller bore brush. Take patch soaked in Hoppes BR or Shooters Choice and wrap around brush. Push it down bore through bore guide from breach to muzzle. Unscrew brush, thrown patch away and do same thing again. Keep doing until you have carbon out. Thats usually five patches or so. Then push down a few dry patches.

Now switch to a cooper cleaner solvient and do same thing.  Only let cleaner soak 2-5 minutes between patches.  With good bbl you will have cooper out in five patches also. Now spray brush with WD40 to remove the cooper cleaner which will destroy the brush.

Now runa  few dry patches and then a few oil patches to float out cooper cleaner.  If its to be shot right away dry patch oil out. If not leave some oil for protection inside but remember to remove before shooting.

Whole thing takes less than ten minutes

As to break in try about ten pounds of sand if you want to ruin it fast. Otherwise just shoot and clean no abrassive shit and I can say that calling David a friend.  I use his throat abrasive stuff to geta  few hundred rounds out of a burnt throat rifle but thats it.

As to Litto, dont bite off more than you can chew. Guy knows alot and can shoot. I saw him make fools of all of us many years in prep for a sniepr comp, where we all crawled many yards to find good FFPs to shoot from and he just waited for us all to wander off and he planned  a route where he walked to a spot, set up easily and made shots without getting busted. Never broke a sweat.

Now a question. What the hell is a Carbon Fiber cleaning rod supposed to do better? I mean I just started doing this.

Hey anyone going to Nationals in Lodi this year? Team USA will be there. Still deciding if I fly or drive across country.  My new GA RPA rifle has yet to not max 500 and 600 stages (points not all x rings that .50 moa X ring is a bitch) but I figure next string will be the one I screw up big time. Guess how I clean it?  The BR's all cringe when they discuss how they load and clean while this old dummy just shoots more.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller          
Ca, - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 17:56:26 (ZULU)

It will run 4 hours at full load on a quart of fuel, and has an autothrottle for use with lower continuous loads, which cuts the engine speed back only to what the load demands. That cuts fuel usage even lower at partial loads, and is a benefit of the inverter, since line frequency is not dependent on motor speed.

I use it in the mountains in the summer with a 60-amp battery charger to charge the batteries in our travel trailer when in places with no electricity - which is most of them where we go. It's small and quiet, at 59 dbA.

Lindy          
On the road somewhere in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 18:34:37 (ZULU)

>"Now a question. What the hell is a Carbon Fiber cleaning rod supposed to do better?"<

I have read that these can break (instead of bend) and when they do, they shatter and splinter badly, and can cut you up.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 18:54:32 (ZULU)

Did my snail mail ever get there?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway          
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 20:23:38 (ZULU)

My daughter has a little "Beanie Baby" teddy bear.  It has the same plastic bead filler as the bag you gave me, and worked fairly well as a substitute.  She would take the bear to the range and use it with her .22.  We called it, "Beanie Baby Prone".  If I would have been thinking, I'd have snapped a picture.

CDC'          
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 10:50:31 (ZULU)

YMMV, Bolt out!

Bolt          
Next round of storms on the way in......, NC, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 11:33:49 (ZULU)

I need a better computer!!!

I'm on two other sites on a regular basis, and browse (but don't post) on a few others, and I'm depressed.

Everyone gets endless 1/4" groups out of their factory riffles, and their handloads get ES's of 10, and SD's of 2!!!

Well, my sticks are pretty good, and my loading technique is pretty good, so it must be my computer.

The internet is an interesting place ;)))

I got a laugh out of Joe's comment about socio-economics... and it got me thinking.

I've been on this site for maybe 12 years, and I can remember some colorful characters - Nato-Steve comes to mind.  And going way back, a bunch of others, and I can't forget, "Master Kung Foo Sniper" :))).

But what caused this trip down nostalgia lane was our most recent visitor, "Cherry Dan".  I guess he didn't have the stones to make the cut.

Most websites have a constant rollover of newbees that pop in with the same ol' questions, and if you are on the site for three months, you have gotten all you can get from it, because you will be reading, "Can I use IMR-4350 instead of H-4350?" for the fourteenth time by week eight!!

But that doesn't happen here anymore - we have had maybe two or three like "Cherry Dan" in the last year.

(I don't count Jon-K in that group cuz he was a good sport, and has learned a lot and moved up the ladder to being a no BS grasshopper).

So obviously, we're doing something right (or wrong), depending on your point of view.

In spite of the fact that we, as a group, don't have an endless outpouring of "techno-babble" about which gun case will tighten your groups, this site is read and respected all over the shooting community.

It absolutely amazes me, "where" and how often we are quoted around the net.

Shooters pour over this site and dig up stuff from our archives all the time.

So I guess we are doing something right.

... Hey Cherry Dan, come on back, we have good techno-babble for you!!  Tomorrow, I'll report about the new gun case that I bought that reduced my groups from 1" to less than 1/4", just by letting the gun sit in it for a week.

Next week, I'm gonna report on a test I have been doing - if you store your riffles lying on the left side, it will compensate for spin-drift.

-

'lito

CatShooter          
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 13:38:55 (ZULU)

God loves American snipers.

sinister          
Green Zone, getting rocketed, in this dusty frigging place - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 15:13:01 (ZULU)

IIRC, your super-duper-sniper-secret was "green".  I'll have to scrounge that one up.. one of my favorites.

Question on blueing (sp?).  I recently sold an older Sako back to the guy from whom I originally purchased.  I pulled it from the safe, after having not looked at it in a year or so.  The blueing around the chamber appeared to have gone from 'black' to a purplish/brown.  Turns out, it was exactly as the original owner remembered, so I was put at ease that I hadn't done something silly during storage.

Blueing is soemthing I view as alchemy.  What makes one blued rifle "go purple" and another to remain "black"?  What incantations do you invoke when you blue your stuff?

Duman          
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 15:40:07 (ZULU)

A couple of days ago I posted some badly edited notes on rifle shooting.  If you have a few minutes, your input would be invaluable and much appreciated.

To find the post, search [ Ommm ].

CDC'