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JR - you're in 'I Dream of Jeannie' land! (one of my first role models) I heard the Aries is big. I bet things shake when that takes off. A rifling machine...wow. Everyone here has fun toys! I think all Presidents etc like to say how great things are going despite the fact that you see more and more "for lease" signs on buildings and, like you said, people with good jobs are stressed because of staff reductions etc. We are definitely in interesting times.

MikeMiller: Best of luck to you on your travels. I'm sure we'll all want sitreps when you can. Remember, don't tug on any veils, okay?

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 00:15:57 (ZULU)

Has anyone here played with one of these?

http://www.mechtechsys.com/

medicjim
Friday, October 23, 2009, at 01:31:28 (ZULU)

Mr. Morgan:

I'm sure that most law enforcement officers know constitutional rights as well, if not better, than you do. After all, it's their job to know, whereas it's just a matter of having something to bitch about with you. Of course, that is your right. See? I know your rights.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Texas, USA - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 01:55:11 (ZULU)

Medicjim on mechtech:

One of the locals is a dealer who handles them. What did you want to know, and for which platform? 1911, Glock...

I'll try and get you answers.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 03:30:52 (ZULU)

Rod: Just out of curiosity, next time you're there ask them what kind of performance they can get with a Ford-Flinto-1911 Gov't .38 Super

Kat Girl
Ellay, Ca, USA - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 08:42:25 (ZULU)

Travis, you're painting with too broard a brush.

Charles, that really smacked of the "Us & them" LE attitude that set Travis off in the first place.

Now ya'll put them sticks down & quit poking each other in the eye. (GEEZE! Kids these days!)

SSG Mac
EGO surculus, ergo sum, (Yes: I stole that) - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 11:41:26 (ZULU)

CDC

E-Mail in bound

Gary Kaney
N.W., IL, - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 12:09:47 (ZULU)

CDC:

Can you make one for a HOWA .308? I'm gonna need two. The stock has a cheek swell on it.

Btw your site is looking great! You are getting there, sir.

SSG Mac: I couldn't have said it better. Bravo!

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 12:16:55 (ZULU)

SSG Mac:

If you look at the roster for a long time back, I've generally let it go. Here's the thing....I get a lot of it at work, many of the HSLD youngsters who are all wound up because they used to be in the military (of course, they were ALL Rangers or Special Forces/SEAL/Force Recon)and all they can do is run down "F-ing cops". I usually point out to them that a lot of the stuff we do came from police departments, but that doesn't seem to sink in.

It's been my experience that folks who continuously run down police officers generally have problems with authority figures and lack discipline. They also tend to be general foul-ups and blame all their legal troubles on the cops. Mostly, I find it humorous, but once in a while I just have to point out that they're morons.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Texas, USA - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 12:22:54 (ZULU)

Charles...

>"It's been my experience that folks who continuously run down police officers generally have problems with authority figures and lack discipline. They also tend to be general foul-ups and blame all their legal troubles on the cops."<

I think you are right on, except...

I also think it is a regional issue, and LE in the urban cities with "inner city" types, and LE in the leftist states like New Yawk, and Kalifornia do NOT (for the most part) support firearms rights.

Here in CT (the home of the US firearms industry), the state police have sided with severe gun control advocates EVERY TIME, and have publicly stated that they would like to close down every shooting range in the state (that wasn't police owned).

So I think there is truth on both sides of it.

Now, you get into the "fly over" states, and rural areas, and the LE think nothing of you owning anything you got, and might even look the other way if something you have isn't quite up to BATF snuff. I was once given a unregistered SBR (M1 Carbine with a 10" bbl) by an LE officer... he had it built (beautifully) but never unregistered it, and he didn't want it anymore... (I registered it).

Go figure??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 13:13:43 (ZULU)

Storm: "CDC:Can you make one for a HOWA .308?"

Send me a cast or send me the stock. I'll take a cast and return your stock by priority mail no later than the next business day.

I'll even pay return shipping. Your rifle should be down a week or less.

CDc'
Stamp out gun neglect - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 16:11:21 (ZULU)

Kat Girl on MecTech performance w/.38 super vanilla 1911

- What do you need, muzzle velocity info, or effective accuracy acheived?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 16:36:01 (ZULU)

Rod, on the Mech Tech...I'm just looking for a reasoned opinion on the quality and perhaps some anecdotal on the reliability.

medicjim
Friday, October 23, 2009, at 17:01:31 (ZULU)

'Lito:

Usually, the anti-gunners are the police chiefs, they're political appointees and tend to the side of the bread that's buttered. Rank and file usually aren't against ownership. Of course, that's a generalization as well, but generally accurate.

No group of people is monolithic, but it's like excoriating all doctors because a few engage in malpractice, and hating all doctors because of it.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Texas, USA - Friday, October 23, 2009, at 17:52:53 (ZULU)

"No group of people is monolithic, but it's like excoriating all doctors because a few engage in malpractice, and hating all doctors because of it."

I'm down with this... I've seen so many doctors treat patients poorly, I don't trust any. Some are simply evil....I watched a doc use a patient's open wound as an inkwell to jot billing notes down.

medicjim
Friday, October 23, 2009, at 18:00:00 (ZULU)

Charles, not to worry. I know where you're coming from: I get awfully tired of Marines talking about how soldiers are fat f*ck-ups just because we get saddled with some slugs. Doesn't matter: you were both poking each other in the eye wid dem sticks. No need: we're all on the same side in this bar.

BTW, welcome home. Glad you got back with everything in it's asigned place.

SSG Mac
Friday, October 23, 2009, at 18:08:06 (ZULU)

"I watched a doc use a patient's open wound as an inkwell to jot billing notes down."

You gotta be shi##ing me.... that's right out of a Wes Craven flick.

Duman
Friday, October 23, 2009, at 21:39:48 (ZULU)

Charles,

You've just demonstrated the idiotic "if you complain about one of us, you're against all of us" attitude that seems to run so rampant with LEO's these days. I know it goes against your training, but you might consider the possibility that you can have a badge AND be wrong.

When I say that most officers don't truly understand the bill of rights, I'm generally referring to the younger ones; the ones that have been around a while have learned them very well and use it to their advantage. Both, however, just LOVE to cry, "officer safety" to trample those rights or as an excuse to do anything and everything short of burning a house down around the occupants only to find out it's the wrong damned house!

I can't remember the last time I got a ticket, much less been threatened with arrest. When I was a kid, I got thrown in the pokey a time or two, but I sure as hell didn't blame it on anyone else.

Travis Morgan
Friday, October 23, 2009, at 22:52:40 (ZULU)

"You've just demonstrated the idiotic "if you complain about one of us, you're against all of us""

Please explain how that has been demonstrated.

"I know it goes against your training,..."

How do you "know" that?

"idiotic" huh? Charles?

CDC'
Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 09:52:19 (ZULU)

F*** it. Pie fight ON. I've heard this song before (in this bar). I'll be back when it's over.

SSG Mac
Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 11:28:23 (ZULU)

SSG Mac: Stick around. No pies will be thrown by me. Assertions were made. Proofs were requested. Proof talks and lack of proof...well, it should walk. It probably won't.

Dan
Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 12:01:45 (ZULU)

Duman wrote "You gotta be shi##ing me.... that's right out of a Wes Craven flick."

No sir, not kidding and not exaggerating. I was a lowly paramedic in training at the time and when I walked the doc out of the ER room and asked him WTF...his response was that you cannot autoclave a bic pen and he needed to write notes while working in a sterile field. When I reported him to the hospital review board, they told me he makes a lot of money for the hospital.... and that my time as a trainee would need to occur somewhere else...

I look at it this way....five doctors in one hospital were complicit in allowing this sort of behavior, all in the name of money alone.

Travis - Having Charles defend bad cops is like asking Ron Paul to explain the conduct of Nacy Pelosi. You can have a perfectly valid point and still look silly based on who you choose to argue with... please let the man enjoy his time stateside

medicjim
Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 14:41:00 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Maybe we could agree that there are idiots and AH's in every profession. Way back when I was driving airplanes I ran across some real jerks and I also had the privilege of working with some of the greatest and nicest guys in the whole bloody universe.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 15:08:53 (ZULU)

BRogers...

>>>Gosh, I thought a sub tender was a boat. How bout that Larry J.?<<<

Kinda sorta... Sub tenders are 'ships' whereas the subs are 'boats...'

Sorry 'bout the slow response, been outta town for 5 days.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 16:08:14 (ZULU)

I had a medical examiner show up on a murder scene where the victim had been shot in the forehead.

The ME stuck his index finger in the hole, twisted it around a couple of times, wiped off his finger on the victim's clothing, looked carefully at the victim for a minute, and said, "Yep, he's dead. Bag him and tag him."

People of every occupation span a wide range of human characteristics, in my experience. Some are nice and kind folks, some are arrogant jerks, even though they may not have much to be arrogant about, and just about everything in between.

That's life.

Lindy
Rockport, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 17:20:21 (ZULU)

Kind of reminds you of that Graveyard final scene in "The Good, Bad and the Ugly". Who's gonna draw first? I thinks All cops ain't bad and all cops ain't good. Some are Ugly and Some aren't pretty. Maybe it's more like Reno 911 around here come to think of it. All mice and all cats are about the same when it comes to cheese but mice ain't cats and cats ain't mice. If that makes sense to you... you may need some counciling.

Yeah, Larry, Sorry I'm not enough Sailor to know the ship from the boat!: Be just like me get on a ship and say "Take her down".:)

Brogers
Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 17:58:47 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney: Your emails keep bouncing. Yry running your card again. I'm told it should work.

JR: How much should a member of Joe Public budget for one of your "better than most" SR25s? Got a link?

CDC'/Dan
Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 18:44:37 (ZULU)

BRogers...

>>>Yeah, Larry, Sorry I'm not enough Sailor to know the ship from the boat!: Be just like me get on a ship and say "Take her down".:)<<<

Hopefully, the 'boat' will come back up!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, October 24, 2009, at 20:08:44 (ZULU)

I'm probably going to dig myself into a technical hole, but what the heck...

Subtended fractional milliradians is a common unit of measure when using an astronomical telescope. Same kind of idea as mildots in a riflescope. It's a way of describing the apparent size of an object at a specific level of magnification.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 01:02:50 (ZULU)

QOTD

"Taking a rifle to a gunfight is the equivalent of taking a chainsaw to a knife fight." Lt. Col. Grossman in On Combat (Sec 2, Ch 1)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 02:23:38 (ZULU)

Hey Rod - now that you mention it, I think that Jupiter's disk actually looked like 1/8-1/4 mr. I'll be back...

yup 50 sec of an arc at the biggest wow

Click

LtCol Dave Grossman is a nice guy. I wrote him when "On Killing" came out and thanked him for finally writing about something I had thought about for a long time but never heard about (non-PC). I'll post a really good article he wrote about sheep vs sheepdogs.

Kathy

p.s. my three-point sling keeps yanking off my hoops....nuts.

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 06:54:17 (ZULU)

CDC

The E-Mail i sent to you from the roster came to me. (gremlins)

The card info took about 2 hours later.

Gary Kaney
N.W., IL, - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 10:30:41 (ZULU)

Kat girl on 3-point sling:

You made me smile. Jewelry can be an issue in a high-speed, low-drag environment. Same kind of issue like wearing a tie when working on rotating machinery. Would make for a really ugly lathe accident waiting to happen. It also wouldn't surprise me if some of the head piercings popular today are incompatible with SCUBA gear or gas masks too. Ditto for heavy beards and standard gas masks or respirators.

Although this article says that despite claims to the contrary, beards and gas masks are not incompatible. Interesting...

http://www.forward.com/articles/2625/

http://www.sikhnet.com/news/sikh-wins-gas-mask-case-board-rules-no-need-shave-beard

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 13:35:45 (ZULU)

"p.s. my three-point sling keeps yanking off my hoops....nuts."

Are you talking earrings here? <g>

medicjim
Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 13:40:41 (ZULU)

"Although this article says that despite claims to the contrary, beards and gas masks are not incompatible. Interesting..."

SCBA is a positive pressure device. In theory, it should tolerate some leaking and still protect it's user. Theory doesn't hold up in real life... the leaking means you get dosed. I'll put my 25 years as a firefighter / Hazmat Specialist up as one vote for a mandatory clean shaven face if you want to play in the IDLH space.

Most 'gas masks' are negative pressure... they are whole orders of magnitude more vulnerable to seal compromise. I think any expert supporting the position that beards are OK should be required to grow a substantial beard... then donn a negative pressure mask and enter a lethal environment under the worst possible real word conditions, and work in the environment for 30 minutes...this will effective elimintate the opposing position by killing them all. Nuff said.

SCUBA in a toxic environ is a whole different animal...I'm not sure if facial hair comes into play.

medicjim
Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 13:57:37 (ZULU)

Medicjim: Yeah, big hoop earrings. <embarrassed> When I wear my electronic ear muffs I tell people they're antennas for better reception. I was doing some transition drills last night.

Kat Girl

p.s. Rod "High Speed Low Drag" well if I jump up and down, they don't make noise so I won't tape them down, but I can imagine practicing a two person room clearing where my imagination is down one side clearing, then down the other, the look back 45degs into the room (up/down) but really what happens is Kathy has an earring caught in a hat hook and she's just sort of dangling to and fro. That just might be embarrassing-er.

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 16:40:10 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

SCUBA is a negative pressure - you must draw a few ounces of negitave pressure to open the second stage of the regulator - if the mask no fit good, you draw in water too. :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 16:49:40 (ZULU)

Lito - right, but most SCUBA setups have the mask and regulator separate...the seal is at your mouth. The negative pressure reg is different too, it adjusts pressure based on depth. I just don't know enough to opine on that area.

medicjim
Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 17:33:17 (ZULU)

medicjim,

Some of the rescue gear I've seen has the SCBA (not SCUBA) with a full face mask. Full face masks, with regulators, are available for SCUBA.

Duman
Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 17:44:04 (ZULU)

Duman - All SCBA for rescue is full face mask.

medicjim
Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 17:52:41 (ZULU)

I got my Premier back probably about a month ago and zeroed it, then shot a match. It worked perfectly. Just for fun I decided to run a quick check of the tracking this morning. It was perfect. I didn't do a drawn out box test but I'm happy with it.

I thought it would only be fair to report the results of the repair after expressing my displeasure earlier.

I made a quick post with a few pics on the 'Hide for those that are interested.

clicky

MarcS
South S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 19:54:17 (ZULU)

Brogers:

Me, need counselling? Oh yeah. I need it. I definitely need therapy. I'm getting it now. Port Aransas, margaritas, shrimp and

Crab legs by the pound........I may be crazier'n a shithouse rat, but I'm getting better.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Texas, USA - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 21:38:42 (ZULU)

Nikon riflescopes w/Canadian warranty:

The only Nikon Canada authorized riflescope dealer I could find that carries inventory is Cabelas Canada. Nikon Canada's warranty on such thing is 25 years.

http://www.cabelas.ca/

L.L. Bean is not a Nikon Canada authorized dealer, so no Canadian warranty with them.

Wholesale Sports in Alberta no longer carries Nikon optics, even though they are still listed as an authorized Nikon Canada dealer.

Interested in any other Canadian retail leads...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 21:45:53 (ZULU)

Chas. even a shithouse rat would get better on that diet!

"Wasted away in Margaritaville! Lookin for my last shaker of salt!" Aw those were the days! How are you gonna get back on that plane again? What if all that stuff makes you sane or somethin?

Brogers
Sunday, October 25, 2009, at 23:34:51 (ZULU)

I'll get back on the plane because it pays really, really well. I just paid off everything but my mortgage, and that's gonna go bye-bye in nine months. Also, I understand that everything is insane, so it don't bother me. As for now, margaritas on the beach, then shooting up at Badlands with the crew, how much more therapy can a man take?

Charles S. Huntg
Spring Branch, Texas, USA - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 01:06:28 (ZULU)

CDC,

<<JR: How much should a member of Joe Public budget for one of your "better than most" SR25s? Got a link?>>

I said the barrels are coming out better than most..Don't get me into a pissing contest on gas guns, hahah, I defer to the more knowledgeable on this topic to make their own assessment..Will need to find my price list, but I know they aren't cheap, not even a bit. And I don't know the plans for civvie sales, what is possible is once it looks like contracted obligations can be sustained alongside commercial venues in the SR25 platform, there is a better chance we will be building more commercial rifles in that platform.

later

JR
Ares in 2 days weather pending, - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 01:38:40 (ZULU)

Brogers: I know that song intimately. I actually got to Margaritaville in Jamaica at 9am and started trying the 52 flavors of margaritas. I don't remember how many I tried. I know that I enjoyed it though.

Hunt: Enjoy it while you can. Just be careful. You and Sarge said that you would help me with reading trace more this weekend. Of course ringing steel is greatly needed for my therapy.

CDC: I'm going to out using the HOWA this coming weekend. I should be able to send you the stock within the next couple of weeks. Look forward to doing business with ya. It's always good to help out with the start of a new business of comrades; especially when the product is good!

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 02:00:52 (ZULU)

Hey Storm, know if anybody else is coming to play this week-end? As always the more the merrier!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 02:11:18 (ZULU)

Chuck - I went out for a much needed blue agave Margarita last night. I think I saw rivulets of it heading slowly towards where you are. I think it's working! :)

Kat Girl

p.s. haha "trickle down" Love it. Let us all have a moment of appreciation for the Blue Agave plant. It giveth uth great drinkith-s.

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 04:54:29 (ZULU)

Yup. Blue Agave and the "trickle down" theory of chemical therapy. When it starts trickling down your chin.....youse is gettin' enough therapy.....

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Tejas, USA - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 11:39:43 (ZULU)

Charles...

>"and the "trickle down" theory of chemical therapy. When it starts trickling down your chin.....youse is gettin' enough therapy....."<

My first laugh of the day... thank you!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 14:45:06 (ZULU)

Sarge, I don`t know of anyone for sure. Chuck and Steve and Rich have all been told. Hunt: be careful on those drinks. Amazing what happens with too many in your system. `lito: he`s been in rare form since he`s been back. Now to see if he can still shoot! ;)

Storm
Monday, October 26, 2009, at 16:50:27 (ZULU)

Storm: When your stock comes in I'll make a mould that day. The thing will be shipped back to you the next day by priority mail.

I hate to see someone deprived of the use of their best stick.

Winnie HBV guys, be a little patient. My plaster mould is hors de combat and the epoxy one takes a week to cure. I'm make this batch today by hand. I think I may have found a better way to contain epoxy when I cast these moulds; Just cover a perfect cheekwelder (click) in release agent and jam it in to a large condom. Now to go pickup a dozen. It has been a while since I shopped for those. If the checkout girl is pretty I'll cock an eyebrow.

CDC'
Stamp out firearms neglect. - Monday, October 26, 2009, at 17:17:46 (ZULU)

CDC - apparently you had one laying around for prototyping.

medicjim
Monday, October 26, 2009, at 18:19:20 (ZULU)

CDC,

HA!!! Make sure to pick up some Magnum XL's, you might make her blush..Are you using more permanent like molds than the plasters?

later

JR
Monday, October 26, 2009, at 22:32:06 (ZULU)

re: mould release covers

probably the "get lucky" one from his wallet :-)

They're not just for rifle muzzles...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 00:12:35 (ZULU)

JR: I switched to hi-temp epoxy and calcium carbonate. This stuff shouldn't fail.

CDC'
Stamp out gun neglect - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 00:48:56 (ZULU)

CDC,

what's the shrink rate for the epoxy? shouldn't matter a ton with the parts you're making but something to think about down the road..

JR
Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 01:05:12 (ZULU)

JR: Click my name. It says "low shrinkage" but I haven't looked at the technical data.

CDC'
Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 02:43:33 (ZULU)

"get lucky one?" haha oh my

Well here's something which will hopefully make you all feel a little better - a ladies social group (Southern California!) who discovered shooting was so much fun, they made a 2nd trip and are planning more (I went along to help coach and RO a little). I bet 95% are democrats too.

click

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 06:16:26 (ZULU)

Well, "Large" isn't large enough and the durability didn't make it. The doubled up Trojans are hanging in there, but just barely. They make an extra large that will hold a bottle-nose dolphin but I don't know if they make them that can handle this kind of abuse.

Wait a minute; This is the 21st Century USA.

Piece of cake. I expect skeptical looks at the check out.

<Edited to add> JR nailed it; Magnum XLs are the answer. I'm not even going to speculate how he knew that.

CDC'
Stamp out gun neglect - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 09:53:15 (ZULU)

CDC'

>"Piece of cake. I expect skeptical looks at the check out."<

Wait until you claim them as a business expense. The looks will be downright disbelieving.

John

John Coupland
Shefford, P,Q,, Canada - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 11:03:11 (ZULU)

Kat Lady...

>"... a ladies social group (Southern California!) who discovered shooting was so much fun... "<

Yeah... but the targets are all men :((((((((((((((((((((

You're right, they are all democrats!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 11:11:10 (ZULU)

'lito rotflmao. I need new contacts, I think I missed that those were anatomically correct silhouettes. They did seem awfully happy to see us (B-27pp). I thought of something, you know how everyone shoots at what they're staring at in the scary moments? See how we get back to that Magnum XL topic?

Segue

CDC' I used to be on the board of an art foundation. When you have a whole collection of stock replicas, they probably would use it as an exhibit. Especially if you wrote something really obscure to describe your motivation! :D

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 11:33:37 (ZULU)

The best shooting is done by picturing the actual target. Is it so bad that it actually has a face? :/ And I'm not a democrat! :o

As for the artwork idea, I like that idea a lot better than most of the crap that people consider art.

CDC: The best thing to do nowadays is say "thanks" for the info and not ask.... :/

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 12:15:53 (ZULU)

Ha, and we thought JR went to Scotland to make barrels... he was just looking for a lifetime excuse to wear a Kilt... pants can be so restrictive.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 14:01:55 (ZULU)

I like kilts! Do they really go regemental?

Storm
Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 15:39:40 (ZULU)

Charles: Knowing them and respecting them are two different things. A serviceman will see those rights as a sacred part of his duty. Now tell me a cop does...my ass; almost to a man I have heard the lament of how this or that dirtbag got over because of this or that stupid right (I married into LE, and trained with them remember?)...there is an entirely different perspective that Morgue was alluding to. A soldier takes pride in defending these rights---a cop is limited in his job because of them. I do not care how high and mighty a few may be in their constitutional esteem---that is a recipe for a different outcome when bad happens across society. For my money, if the economy tanks I'd rather see the 82d in my streets than the entirety of my local police force. At least I wouldn't be seen as a "perp" by one group.

"It's been my experience that folks who continuously run down police officers generally have problems with authority figures and lack discipline. They also tend to be general foul-ups and blame all their legal troubles on the cops. Mostly, I find it humorous, but once in a while I just have to point out that they're morons."

Precisely.

It is a fine line, to be sure...but one I find significant in terms of who would or would not suppress the "people." The service will look at the people as "mom, dad, sister, brother, friend, neighbor..." And cops, well, Charles--you summed it it up nicely yourself.

When the SHTF, I know who I will be wary of.

Joe M
Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 16:28:33 (ZULU)

Runnin' down cops...

My turn!

This morning I went to the Police station to get fingerprinted for my silencer and get the "CLEO" (Chief Law Enforcement Officer, it sounds like a movie award)...

... and I give the papers to the gal out front and she disappears for a minute, and then out comes this little twerp with a twisted up face (da' CLEO) and he throws the papers at me and says, "I won't sign this crap", and goes back in his office.

So... I have no issues with my parents or authority or any other stuff, but he is a little Nazi, and it would not surprise me if if he abused his power on citizens while he was the way up.

Now it'll cost me another $750 to set up a trust so I can buy my can (that I already paid for).

There are scumbag cops out there. But you have to judge them one at a time (like everyone else!).

But as JoeM said, if some group has to be in my streets, I would rather it be the armed forces than many police - remember what the police did during Katrina. They went house to house and confiscated all the guns they could find (and 99% of them never got back to their owners).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 17:01:02 (ZULU)

Guys just checking in from Iraq.

On cops thing guys your all too smart to lump us into one category. Some of you around a bit will remember way back when Ca put the Assault Rifle ban I spoke out against it in a NRA Commercial. Thats one little Police Sergeant. I did not see any Soldiers do so but thats not a reason to judge them either.

People are all individuals and need to be judged that way dont lump into categories.

Joe I have seen some very fine young men over here and some that need a bit more than a little work. All wearing the same uniform. I prefer to see the best not the worse in your uniform. Please allow my profession the same advantage

This reminds me of some 8541s who said "Cops cant shoot" I took that challenge on and Crow as served. Especially when I told them I was just average for a Police Sniper.

No hard feelings here as I know you guys are good to go, just would like you to reviit the idea.

Mike/Undude Surronded by Americas Finest but with M16 in hand

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 17:34:39 (ZULU)

'lito,

Would the Sheriff of your county outrank the little twerp? Here in the boonies the Sheriff is the CLEO. Just a thought.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 18:39:23 (ZULU)

"if the economy tanks I'd rather see the 82d in my streets than the entirety of my local police force."

JoeM- If you find youself sideways of the prevailing authority, you might regret your choice.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 19:21:20 (ZULU)

I have a problem with authority! I have NO problem respecting and obeying my superiors...it's just that they are so hard to find ; )

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 19:50:39 (ZULU)

Doc...

It is hard to know - the BATF says that they will only take paperwork from the state police or other officials, if there is no local CLEO...

... I have already hired an attorney that specializes in "Gun trusts".

It does have it's up side. First, legally, if you own a Title II, Class 3 device, "you" are the only one that can shoot it, or even hold it.

If the item is in a trust, then anyone listed in the trust can use it, posses it, take it to a range, etc... so I can put Ruggus Rattus on the trust, and he can use it too... plus, when I croak, it is his automatically, without an additional $200 transfer tax, and then his kids and their kids, etc.

So that is the way I will go on this. But it has pissed me off, and I am gonna get active in our local politics on this stuff.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 20:04:04 (ZULU)

[story] A blood-pressure raising tale for gunnies:

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=413614

Hoover Dam DHS checkpoint no-go zone if you have >1000 rds of any kind of ammunition in your vehicle...

No prior warning in advance on the very long approach road.

Apparently it's a published limit:

http://www.usbr.gov/lc/hooverdam/crossingguide.pdf

Can I carry weapons in my vehicle across Hoover Dam?

Yes, as long as their transport complies with state and federal standards, i.e. guns must be unloaded and in compliance with concealment laws. Also, no more than 1000 rounds of ammunition may be transported across the dam.

Papers please!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 22:52:03 (ZULU)

Mike: You are right--it is not a one size fits all summation. And I have known some in the military that have scary personalities.

I am looking at this in the scenario where authority and the people begin to diverge. A murky place where ethics blur and what was rigth may no longer be. In a case where the government is pure power and people purely disenfranchised. In my mind, this could happen with a little nudge by nature or man--or simply from one nation deciding to be the first out of the dollar game overseas. So, is the legitimate power the government no matter what policies it adopts--or do we always look at the government's powers deriving from the consent of the governed? Against this backdrop, who would I trust to side with the people more often than not? Is suspension of the constitution legal and just? Or, is that the opening gambit for its removal? Interesting questions--especially since we can google these issues and hear Barry's own words on such things. But it is this concept that I consider the question. Sorry, but by and large I would prefer troops to restore order or whatnot in a crisis.

MedicJim: I'm probably smarter than you think. Being bold has its uses. But being nonexistent is far better over a long term crisis.

Joe M
Tuesday, October 27, 2009, at 23:50:57 (ZULU)

'lito - that really infuriates me.

JoeM - no doubts at all...you are smarter than I look :)

Rod - Hoover Dam and a checkpoint? Wow, I hope USPSA/IDPA competitors never go that way. It must have been Cyborg II that scared them. Aside from taking over the controls, it's hard to imagine 1000 rounds of anything hurting that concrete. We had better write to them and warn them about climbing rope that will let big muscley BGs guys NZ rappel down the face of that dam. End of rope?! aaaaaaaahhhhh....

You know, that would be a fun order-of-magnitude calc. Given a typical crater depth of a 9mm in reinforced concrete, how many rounds would it take to chew its way through the width of the base of Hoover Dam. Damn!

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 00:06:56 (ZULU)

MedicJim: We had units overseas that were in need of training and discipline--but had run out of time and made it to the show anyway. When these units made contact---those of us outside of the kill zone called it the "death blossom." Scared troops shooting wherever the muzzle pointed. A 360 degree FPF. Extremely dangerous for the afjacent friendlies. And that was the farthest thing from the minds of the freaked-out.

My boy had more rounds in practice under his belt by HS graduation than that of maybe 70% of all LEOs have under their belts. Training issues are significant problems for the side arms; and here I am thinking in terms of breaking out the armory and issuing assault rifles and battle rattle. Paramilitary TTPs. This is not even close to being trained, widespread or even selectively--but BET it will be employed anyway. I do not need to do the math; I've seen such results.

My intent if such things as martial law come to pass would be to see and avoid. That is not bad advice for everyone, for that matter. I have no quarrel with anyone doing their job as they see it. But I do have some mental lines in concrete that would require special effort to cross. That effort alone triggers COAs that I need not give further thought to. But in my mind---my primary mission is to get my kids thru any crisis safely. Period. I am also smart enough to know what to avoid to make that a touch easier.

Joe M
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 00:10:34 (ZULU)

Kat Girl:

Security Theatre, daily performances at a target near you...

In the same thread:

Schutzen writes:

"I was out there in 2004 and the stupidity was rampant then. I retired from the Utility Industry and have worked in numerous power generating stations to include a small hydro-electric station. I asked the tour guide if we could see the Control Room. You would have thought I asked if I could shoot a pistol in the building. The tour guide explained to me that "absolutely no one was allowed in or near the Control Room!" The really interesting thing to me was that during this conversation we were standing on one of the few structures in the dam that a small explosive charge would damage sufficiently enough to potentially destroy the entire power house. Who ever is making up the rules for the Security Force and or Homeland Security does not have a clue about the operation of a power house and what equipment is truly critical.

A good example I saw at another installation was placing expanded metal mesh screens over the windows to Power House Service Bay to prevent unauthorized access. I just had two issues with this. 1) The windows were 6 feet above grade making climbing in difficult at best. 2) 30 feet west of the windows was a Drive-in Access Door that is usually open 24/7 because it is used 5-6 times per hour. The expanded metal mesh was nothing more than some managers “I did this to improve security” project, all show and no go.

PS No I will not tell you which piece of equipment can bring the entire show to a screecing halt. "

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 00:11:37 (ZULU)

Joe, you should share your encounter with WSPs finest the night of the black ice.........you really gotta have a tyrant complex for that crap. Maybe your uniform stirred up some feelings of inadequacy......

Cops: some are great, some not so great, some are nazi pricks. The problem is, you can't tell by lookin'. If the ones who viewed us as citizens and had the mindset that our rights come first, including the 2nd Amendment, would wear a special badge or something, it might help! Otherwise, because of their ability to ruin your life over irivial bullshit, best to avoid unknowns at all costs. Especially in a SHTF situation. Because of a couple truly bad experiences where I was guilty of some small traffic ordinance and one instance where I was swore at and belittled for asking directions, I sometimes fall into the trap of painting them all with the same broad brush. For that I apologize to those cops here on the Roster that I know are good guys. It just makes it tough, really - even if you are a law abiding, tax paying, healthilt contributing good citizen, slip up on some minor thing, and/or wind up in front of the wrong cop, and you might be screwed.

At the federal level with the new agencies there is a lot of bureaucracy gnashing through a lot of money just so multiple levels of newly minted feds can enact and then enforce regulations that are usually window dressing. I had a visit at work from a couple of TSA agents that were pretty decent to deal with. I gave them some reports they requested on hazmat stuff, we talked about security issues, items of mutual concern, and where my focus was. They left happy, first time I've seen that happen with a federal agent! They almost always have some exception to "note" since regulatory requirements in some areas are almost impossibly onerous and their job essentially depends on making us look bad. The best is when two federal agents with equal authority differ completely on how a reg is interpreted. THAT one puts you in real limbo, which sucks when your honest intent is compliance.

Magnums Trivia - they used to be thinner, I think they outsourced them a couple years ago and they had to make them thicker to keep an acceptable failure rate. Thicker is probably better for use in manufacturing!

Finally found an affordable house - five bedrooms, cathedral ceilings, nice kitchen with an island, appliances included, less than 15 years old. Well and septic, one acre sloping wooded lot at the end of the road, across the road from ONE neighbor and a 120 acre lake. Only bad thing is no garage, but that can be fixed. Just gotta get the financing through, there are a number of things that could screw that up. If it comes together, I'm going to wall off a corner of the basement with concrete and build a walk-in vault.

SHOOTING! Picked up a 16X SS with sunshade and flipups for use on a rifle that, uh, needs such magnification. Used but in decent shape, and $100 less than a new one with accessories.

Sorry for the drive by guys, on with the show.......

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 00:46:19 (ZULU)

Joe,

I think you misunderstood my last post.

I figure you could probably handle the average small town police force with better tactics... a company of the 82nd might give you a bit more trouble.

If you are smarter that I think, we are going to have to start coming up with new terms to define the very upper end of humankind. I think pretty highly of your intelligence.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 01:14:23 (ZULU)

MedicJim: I did misread your post entirely---I humbly apologize for launching down range on faulty understandings.

I'm riding out the flu, so maybe I am not as smart as I think? Heheh. That is always dangerous...not really being as smart...but I digress. My middle child is also fighting the fever--so far, this isn't as bad as it could be, I think. It seems responsive to the usual therapies and I have had worse. Knock on wood; I will worry about my kids no matter what--and she still spikes between motrin doses. We're getting it in stages, symptoms one after another rather than all at once. Why, I dunno--but it sure makes it easier to get by.

Geoff: Nice find. Where it will go should be a decent test of quality. A report on durability after several hundred dollars worth of usage will be of interest.

Joe M
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 01:47:55 (ZULU)

ieuww...need to keep my mouth shut :)

Kat Girl

agreed MedicJim we have some 99+ percentile types in this bar. Kind of like Ivory Soap!

everyone: Please take care of yourselves those darned bugs are coast2coast!

360 FPF niiice.

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 02:10:03 (ZULU)

Same here...

The 7 year old is wiped out... been progressing from one symptom to the next for two weeks (cold sweats, sore throat, fever up to 104, and now sinus pain and no energy or appetite). The baby (16 mo) has a runny nose and is cranky, but eating and drinking fine. Wifey has aches and pains. I'm holding strong so far... just a headache from all the compaining. There are some perks to having served in EMS...residual resistance seems to linger. Better go knock on wood.

My advice for the sick....SLEEP, as much as you can.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 02:11:17 (ZULU)

I've been reading the posts about the cop/soldier thing, and it's been rather, um, breathtaking. I'd pretty much let it drop, just wanted to take a gratuitous swipe at someone I think is pretty much a moron, and left everyone else out of it.

I'm in a rather unique position. I've been military (14 years active duty) and a police officer (22 years). I'm now in a job that spans the gap, a contractor working for the DoS at the Embassy in Kabul. And not as some fobbit, either, I'm a Team Leader on the Emergency Response Team, Delta shift, Senior TL. I got the job based on my creds in both the military and Law Enforcement, so I have some credibility when I open my mouth. I have men on my teams that span the spectrum, military, reserves, law enforcement. To a man, the former Army think nothing of just opening up on civilians just because they have a non-armed riot in front of the NVCP. To a man, they would shoot an unarmed man in the back if he merely jumped the Embassy wall. When asked if they would do the same back home, yup, you guessed it.....they all say they will/would. Cops? Not so much. They actually read SCOTUS decisions and understand how they affect civil rights, and application to citizens. On to shooting. Anyopne that thinks the average soldier can outshoot the average police officer has never actually watched them side by side. The former LE on my teams can, and do, outshoot the ex-soldiers by a good 25% across the scoring spectrum, especially pistol and M4's (cops place a lot of emphasis on carbine shooting, something the insular military either just don't know, or overlook. Just because you carry a M4 doesn't make you the acknowledged experts) Soldiers generally do better on the belt-fed weapons, more familiarity, perhaps.

I worked with officers that made my teeth clench. On the whole, however, if I had to make a choice, in a civil meltdown situation, I'd just as soon not have soldiers around me, because, as I have seen of what's coming out of the Army these days, they'd just as soon shoot me or my family down as look at us. Only bright spot is that they probably wouldn't be able to hit all that well.

You got yelled at on a traffic stop? You didn't get a piece of paperwork done that you wanted? Please. I get .50 cals pointed at my by teenage soldiers because I'm on the wrong side of the road.

If you don't like cops, okay. Cool. Tell your family to call the ACLU next time. If this pisses off most of you, oh well. You don't seem to have a problem shitting in my Wheaties.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 03:15:59 (ZULU)

Charles, I think a key difference between your soldiers and your cops is age and thus maturity. Young cock strong MF's are always all excited about killing and Stupid Shit(TM) like that, generally because they're insecure and trying to prove something. You get older and jaded, and it's just part of the job.

As for SCUBA/SCBA, many masks come either way. My AGA is postive pressure, but you can get them with demand valves too. For underwater work, demand draw valves use less air, but I carry 120's with Nitrox so I get 90+ minutes at the depths I work at anyways. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 03:44:18 (ZULU)

Charles: We are screaming right past each other. My point comes from a perspective of how the orders flow through the chain of command on the military side--and the folks I know personally who will filter them BEFORE the barricades are manned. In any situation, I will no more approach a scared 19 year old SPC with an M16 than I would a scared 26 year old cop with his just-issued AR15. But the chain of command in the military is where I place my optimistic hopes; how those orders will be filtered makes all the difference, and that is the very basis for my viewpoint.

And yes, it is nice to shoot first and ask questions later. That difference is why I have often said my respet for the LEO is immense for the job he is given and the limitations he operates under. But, the troops I worked with understood and stayed within the ROE. An overly complicated or needlessly restrictive ROE is its own problem--but generally, my units did not suffer that issue.

In the grander scheme of things, in a societal metldown scenario--I feel that one hierarchal model is better suited to adapt to a shifting enemy. That is all. It is no bag on individual LEOs---but is an honest appraisal of their C&C systems and ability to see "big picture" shifts in who or what the enemy has become. Sorry for the drama--but if we tank the mighty dollar---I can only lay hopes for the republic on the services. Not all departments would let us down--of that I am sure. But the ones nearby here will. Of that I am equally sure. And, for the record, I would expect guard units to gleefully take orders to suppress in stride too. Not all, but enough. Enough to be wary of the whole.

The dollar is weakening fast internationally. I probably do not need to mention that inflation isn't a domestically-driven phenomenon when you have the global currency of choice, eh? That is how it is often viewed due to historic examples--but our "conditions" differ greatly from these models. Think about it.

So, that is why I spend time dwelling on arcane subjects. I can see a chain of events that would put it all on the table. I pray we avoid it altogether.

Joe M
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 04:59:04 (ZULU)

Charles: "When asked if they would do the same back home, yup, you guessed it.....they all say they will/would."

Lets explore that. How rowdy would a crowd have to get before you would expect the average E1 to E5 to obey orders to shoot? It's kind of an inexact question, I realize, but that's the best I can do this time of night.

CDC'
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 08:51:10 (ZULU)

Dang, guys!

Hunt: I tend to agree with your assessment. Good and bad aren't in the majority; if looked at in the whole, the LEOs have my vote. I know several of both and those with both military and LEO; they tend to be the most well-rounded. Though maturity on both LEO and military help curb radical behavior.

CDC: Scenerios have been played out on that. Most outcomes aren't very good.

Joe M: I have definitely given a lot of thought to that possibility with the current state of affairs. Best be prepared, in any case.

A good group to get to know: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 12:34:52 (ZULU)

ON Cops:

I feel like I have something to say, given my recent interactions with the locals this year. Maybe I'll find out otherwise at the end. So be it. Feel free to dislike my guts at the end.

Pre inauguration:

Cops were to be respected and admired for the work they do. Always felt they were to be given the benefit of the doubt for their training and commitment. In fact, I nearly went down the Mil/LEO road myself way back. Might be why I find this bar so interesting, can't say. Nobody wants a beef with the law and for the most part, never had one. Kept my mouth shut and payed my taxes and played the game the best way I could. Figured if I got busted, I had it coming. Never played the victim very well. True enough.

Post inauguration:

Cops are to be respected, but my admiration level has taken a nose-dive (wife too, and she never had a beef). The realization that they are doing a dangerous, dirty, thankless job hasn't left me. But, now it's tempered with the realiztion that aren't always right, or fair, or equitable, or even reasonable. Not sure if I ever really had all those notions in the front of my brain, but they sure leave in a hurry and are gone for good when "Johhny Jackboot" is standing in YOUR driveway telling you black is the new white, and you need to get your mind right. (my words, not his). I was struck by just how individual the different officer's demeanor were on the same incident. The first guy, ex mil, is well known locally for being an ass, and he didn't dissappoint. The next guy, ex mil, is well known locally for being the fair minded, easy going veteran of the force that deals well with the public. He did't disappoint either. The chief, well, that's a different story and apparently, he's the one who's OPINION really counts. He's gone political and there's no turning back, IMHO. That's a ladder with many rungs and I wish him well and good-riddance. The realization that we're all just people riding the planet, should be the overriding factor. Some of us are naughty bastards intent on screwing up society and some of us are forthright citizens trying to figure out this God-awful mess the best we can. And evey combination in between. My problem is when they hold sway over people because they can, not because the law says so. The law becomes what they say it is, regardless of what it ACTUALLY says, just because today, they say so. Sucks to be you. My specific question, that still remains un-answered is, since they all at some point swore to "uphold and defend The Constitution of The United States, against all enemies, foreign or domestic, so help us God", at what point did they forget that little speech? It shouldn't matter if they like what I did, or their pals at the VFW like what I did, or what they think about it, or what the paper prints. The law should matter. And when it doesn't - and when even I, stupid little me, can see that it doesn't - well, hell yeah, it lets a permanent bad taste in your mouth. I now try very hard to not chuck all cops in the same small-minded box from the start. They don't owe me anything and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't take it if offered. I still keep my eyes open and do my part as a citizen to protect the sanctity of life, town, family, country. And if that ever envolves calling them, I'll expect them to do their job. No more, no less.

Just a civilians perspective. Take it for what you paid for it. I ain't trying to piss anyone off, but I won't back away from the truth either. Any meltdown scenario concerns me greatly how they'd handle my rights, and I have an inkling of an answer about that question. Let me guess, it'll be all "for my own good", rights be damned. Just hope we never find out.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, formerly United States - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 15:33:21 (ZULU)

Just got this email, might be worth the electrons it was sent with:

"A Plan for Action

The entire Congress of the United States is corrupt. And I mean both

Houses and I mean both major parties. I realize that a few members of each House are Independents but, as a group of people, they are absolutely the most corrupt bunch to ever disgrace our Nation.

In November of 2010 the entire House of Representatives will have to stand for re-election; all 435 of them.

One third of the Senate, a total of 33 of them, will also stand for re-election.

So, here's the plan:

Vote every incumbent out.

And I mean every one of them. No matter their Party affiliation.

Let's start all over in the House of Representatives with 435 people who have no political favors owed to anyone but their own constituents.

Let's make them understand that they work for us. They are answerable to us and they simply have to run that body with some common sense.

Two years later, in 2012, vote the next third of the incumbents in the Senate out.

We can do the same thing in 2014 and by that time we will have put all new people into the Senate as well.

We, the People, have got to take this country back and we HAVE to do

it peacefully..

Please send this to everyone in your address book.

This idea can permeate the Country in no time. Let's make it happen.

VOTE THE BUMS OUT.

LET'S TAKE AMERICA BACK!

BUT, IF YOU LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING, THEN DO NOTHING."

Duman
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 16:04:23 (ZULU)

As part of training, I do a lot of hypothetical scenarios. One of them was the following: "You have a crowd of protestors, upset about Karzai's tax policies. They're gonna take their grievances to the U.S. Embassy, and won't take no for an answer. They ignore the MOI, ignore the expat at the drop bar and just swarm in the gate. Given that it is still, technically, an Afghan street, and that the gate is impervious to unauthorized foot traffic, what do you do when the crowd heads towards us down the street?" To a man, the ex-soldiers replied that they would "light 'em up". When I explain about the jurisdictional problem, no difference. Light 'em up, they're endangering the Embassy, they MIGHT have guns.

Different scenario. We get a wall jumper, he makes it over the wall, losing his shirt on the razor wire. He tosses an object at the Marine House, then turns and runs for the wall. Same result, "Light him up". When asked to justify that, I'm told he "threw something that might be a bomb". I say it obviously didn't blow, and that he is NO LONGER A THREAT, no matter. Kill him.

I then explain that this is a DoS contract, that we are gonna be investigated by the FBI, and would they do this to Americans under the same circumstances, and I keep getting told, by the ex-soldiers that they would, whoever it is, if they're "breaking the law". Damn, if that doesn't give you a chill, what would? And people actually believe that soldiers would be more likely to safeguard civil rights? Most don't even KNOW from civil rights, all they're used to is the UCMJ. Most civilians don't even know what their rights are, they confuse what they WANT with what their RIGHTS are. Joe, you seem to be pretty switched on, but you're way off-base on this one.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Tejas, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 16:33:54 (ZULU)

Fun product of the day

Zombie Tools - Accessories for the Apocalypse

http://zombietools.net/tools/ (blades)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 17:14:19 (ZULU)

Rod: Some cool zombie-killing tools. Might have to put one in the zombie bug-out kit......

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Tejas, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 17:44:32 (ZULU)

In a hypothetical collapse of society scenario, I don't think one can make a conclusive arguement that any select group of soldiers or LE will be more or less inclined to do the wrong thing....

I do think you can make judgements on which GROUP is likely to be more effective as a team, should you find yourself on the wrong side of them. That conclusion is AO based (there is greater disparity in LE 'TEAM" training than there is with US Mil TEAM training)... in my AO, the local police will be less effective due to tactics. They are a solo act, no team training AT ALL.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 18:29:59 (ZULU)

MedicJim,Joe, Mike and Charles,

You guys all bring up intreresting points as seen from different perspectives.

Should civil disorder break out or whatever it will always depend on the training of the individules involved. Our state patrol team had a lot of training in this type of disorder and there is a lot of military that may not have it.

Lets hope we never have to find out which it is. I fear our goverment is only looking for a reason to clamp down on us. I also fear, as was stated earlier, that much of what is going to be done will come under the guise of, "Its whats best for us".

Pat
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 20:29:28 (ZULU)

MedicJim:

You're probably correct. If it happens, I would hope that all my neighbors and I would work together to keep ourselves safe. In that scenario, any basic services would probably be thin to non-existant. I would trust people based on what I know of THEM. So.....let's all haul ass up to Montana and watch each other's six....

If the situation is such that the Armed Forces are still intact, the local authorities would PROBABLY still be functioning. If not, then it'll have gotten to the point that we're on our own, outside some major population centers. Then this whole discussion is moot. Best have your own zombie plan.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Tejas, USA - Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 20:40:25 (ZULU)

Charles: It could be an apples to oranges comparison that you are making. In 2004, I was offered a stupid money gig with a Britt firm. A bonafide offer requiring a simple retirement process to take it up. I turned it down for my own reasons. The guys you work with are no longer military. They accepted the offer for their own reasons. Whatever the reason--they are no longer military. By the ten year mark, those who would leave have left--whatever the reason. Those who remain on duty--well, I got to know them quite well over the years. I trust them to honor that oath and to make the hard choices it entails should it come to that. Riff raff comes and goes--it is always so. Some take what they can get elsewhere, some used it to step up to an education. But I would assume that you do not have the best and brightest ex-mil with you now with the exceptions proving the rule---but you most certainly have the most opportunistic, if I may generalize this once:-))

As I said, I place my faith on those who proces the orders---a process that does not get down to the "killers" unfiltered or by wrote. That process, combined with numerous conversations with my peers on this very topic, leads me to believe that the military is more likely to side with the people and not against the people. Local LEOs do not give me the same warm fuzzy. That is all there is to it, really.

And all this in defense of Morgue. He's one of the few that I grab the shovel for. There's an element of loyalty that embarked me down the esoteric lane of leadership and interpretations of orders, a POV that I believe--though it is difficult to explain as it is not a reflection upon any individual. It is institutional.

Joe M
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 20:53:17 (ZULU)

In order to use a sample to estimate the paramaters of a population the sample must be large enough and its elements must be chosen at random.

Charles may be right. I can't tell from here.

CDC'
Wednesday, October 28, 2009, at 22:54:33 (ZULU)

Guys in this scenario, most if not all LEO's will be at home protecting their own families. National Guard too. What we would be likely facing is Guard units from other unaffected states and military, ours and UN. There is historical precedent, think after the Civil War (war of northern agression), the reconstruction period.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 02:41:23 (ZULU)

MedicJim: I don't know where you're from, but in San Antonio, it's all about teamwork. Um, has anyone heard of SWAT? Guess where the military learned urban assault and room clearing?

JoeM. Um, wow. Riff raff. Wow. You just mahaged to diss fully half of the Embassy guard force. If you don't retire from the military, you're riff raff? Someone decides to get out and pursue a more lucrative career, and he's riff raff. Sir, your institutional bias is showing. Again, nice one.

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Tejas, USA - Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 02:49:12 (ZULU)

4i's: I talked that concept on another forum; when the grocery shelves are empty--no one is immune to hunger if they rely on "just in time" logistics to feed them. That would include our first responders and linesmen for the power company too. The rubber will meet the road at regional distibution centers and cold storage facilities in such a scenario. Bad places to be--and some will be drawn to them by absolute need.

I often wonder if folks really know how quickly a currency can fail? It has no intrinsic value--none; just the faith we place in it. If OPEC is no longer interested in dollars at all---how many would it take to regain their interest to make that next tanker set sail? That would reflect the price at the pump within 24 hours--whatever that bid may be. The downward cycle feeds on itself...and the repurcussions in our society are simply horrid. The efficiencies we have built in to deliveries are exposed to inflation on fuels first and foremost--and it can quickly inflate right past cash on hand for tomorrow's deliveries--with no bottom in sight, they cannot even price the delivery on the same day.

As I look into systems--I am astounded at the vulnerabilities we have in place. OMG. Ya'll should read that blog I've been hanging out on these last few months---pure politics and economics---and there are a bunch who see this crap as I have; the dollar is on the edge. Since there are no signs of shoring it up with sane monetary policy---one can only assume that it will dive. Once it starts--there is no "controlled devaluations" in store. Last man holding loses. That is the game, and it appears that is the intent of this administration. Scary stuff. There is an upside or two to trashing the dollar--but not for society. The gov can print ahead of inflation for its daily needs, and in the end, the debt is retired on the cheap--because you and I paid it down with everything we are worth. The downside is the suck for society. That's about it, except maybe some seriously hard feelings by the world at large.

Joe M
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 03:00:06 (ZULU)

"MedicJim: I don't know where you're from, but in San Antonio, it's all about teamwork."

That's why I said it depends on AO. If you take me up on the offer for extrication training as you pass through Newark and I'll make sure you you get to evaluate for yourself.

medicjim
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 03:31:59 (ZULU)

Charles: With all due respect sir, you described their behavior to us--that was all I had to go on. Since it is consistent with young infantry fresh out of boot and just short of a chapter--and not at all indicative of the professionals that I served with in group---and barring first hand knowledge of what you are dealing with, I had to trust your judgment on this. Were you exaggerating their ill beahviors, or did I somehow misread your post too? My response is an "if/ then" predicated on IF you were describing them accurately. The next line of course is, garbage in, garbage out. So, which is it--are they hell-for-bent on killing in an undisciplined fashion--or are they simply stuck in a previous ROE metality that takes time to adjust away from? Perhaps you could be more specific and I won't be so vociferous in defense of serving soldiers...

"Riff raff comes and goes--it is always so."

That was meant as we all get ours---nature of the beast. The next sentence also implied some will be going to college--as indirect as the previous line was, I suppose another may think I implied riff raff goes to Harvard. Maybe the stand alone reference of riff raff was all there was to it though: riff raff gets into the army--but doesn't stick around. For the same reason it fails there in the army,they likely won't show up with you, either. I didn't think I would need to diagram that...but I guess I did. As for those who stay or go---there is a marked difference in thinking at the ten year line in the sand. And, as I alluded to--there are a million reasons why some stay and why some go--and each will likely have a dozen one way and 2 dozen the other when they make that choice--no two individuals alike. So, when you describe the prior soldier in monolithic terms of disdain---one could only assume a certain demographic populates that subset. Sorry if you gave me the wrong idea...but please tell us why they aren't so bad next time, eh?

Joe M
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 05:43:56 (ZULU)

fyi - Cold Steel Recon Tanto. It's got like a 30-35 deg edge. Heavy so I thought it would be good for parrying. I tested it on a lamb leg - the blade shattered at the hilt. I'm not that strong either. I'm sure customer service is great, but I'm never going to be attacking Oldmobile hoods anyway and bowhunting taught me that you don't want to push vessels aside. I just don't understand the concept. Would make a killer spear though.

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 12:33:26 (ZULU)

Joe, e-mail off to you at the Rifle-man acct. re: MAJ Kim Gant. Dju get it?

SSG Mac
Ex Scriptura Whamo, - Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 14:29:10 (ZULU)

Charles,

I have to agree with Joe on this one. As I recall your from a LE background so you may be slanted in your views too.

Not all people in uniform, be it LE or military, should be there. Like Joe said the dead wood usually gets sorted out over time. However in some cases we all know that doesn't always happen and we get stuck with the results.

There are a lot of wannabe's out there who spent a few years in the military and now think they are Rambos. A bunch of them joined the civilian security outfits to go back and make the big bucks. NOT all are bad and not all are good either. I think you are probably dealing with some of the wannabe types from the sounds of it.

We have similar problems with a few bad apples wearing a uniform at home as cops. Not everyone that stops you will be courtious and may leave a bad taste in your mouth from the incounter.

You shouldn't paint everyone with the same brush. There are assholes everywhere and there are great people everywhere too. Stay safe and keep your powder dry!!

Pat
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 16:25:01 (ZULU)

Methinks the discussion herein is a valuable lesson. There will always be mistrust and jealous competetion between agencies. Whether it's the FBI or the CIA or the Armies or the civilian authorities or those we call cops. Was it Jefferson who warned against "standing armies". One would think he was thinking of other things at first glance but what happened in New Orleans would illustrate that things are gonna get rough when the SHTF Agencies tend to bond together and the civilians are at their mercy. A man with a rifle who's keyed up in harms way can have a tendency to ignore the rights of those who threaten him whether or not the threat is genuine or imagined. If the SHTF sometime depending on the kevlar more than brotherly cooperation would be advisable.

Brogers
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 17:00:26 (ZULU)

I always felt as though some of the deaths that occurred on 9/11/01 could have been prevented had the military taken such threats seriously. The plane that hit the second tower shouldn't have. That's just my opinion, and it could be jaded by the loss of friends.

Now this one...this seems plain old negligent...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570188,00.html?test=latestnews

I'm thinking careers need to start ending when this crap happens. Maybe some felony convictions on top.

medicjim
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 17:41:07 (ZULU)

MedicJim: I can only project my thoughts into this, but it may be worthwhile. No one expected a human bomb attack of this nature. Hijackings always had some political statement or extortion scheme attached; the suicide commandeering of an airliner just did not make the threat matrix on 9/10/01. Yeah, hindsight is what it is. So, like everyone else---we were still scratching our heads over "how the heck did that happen?" when number two came zooming in to let us know that this was no freak accident. And, like everyone else---"holy shiite! this is deliberate..." was the result of evidence on record, not imagination. Could this have been different? Not with that compartmentalizing memo from the justice department from the witch on the commission looking into "causes." A pattern analysis would have gleaned the method of attack if all the patterns went to one place. But it did not. So, no one expected this. It sounds crazy--like something you would worry about right after the intergalactic invasion...right up to about 8:46 am, September 11, 2001, anyways...

There is a book, recommended reading just to kick start thought---"On Killing."

Knowing that some hijackings are for political or extortion purposes---you are on the tail of an American flagged heavy with a full passenger manifest. It is nearing the holidays so you can imagine the kiddies in coach scared to death about their plight just 300 yards of your nose. The order came: light the switches and arm weapons....this is no drill. In the back of your mind, you remember your sister's kid mentioning a trip...

Imagine the thoughts. It is a little late to regret your line of work---but you would anyway.

Anonymity for those crews is essential in the aftermath---and no bigger story than the first hand account will be sought by the entire media.

Talk about the suck.

Joe M
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 18:25:55 (ZULU)

Joe M - I remember clearly attending a 'post mortum' on the 1993 WTC bombing. There was a solid military contingent in attendance. One of the speakers explained exactly how the attack could have worked had the bomb been higher in the building, or had they used a big airplane.

I remember the news covering those points later that evening.

I think the military needs to develop a basic imagination. I'm no expert, but even I have noticed that suprise attack seems to be the way wars start.

medicjim
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 18:48:19 (ZULU)

Medicjim: Funny that they should call them surprise attacks, eh?:-))

We all made the mistake at minimizing the threat of the goat herder holed up in the stone age--errr, 'Stan. It was a law enforcement gig, though we were pretty sick of that shiite by Flt 103--it was still the rule of thumb on that day. Our eyes were on planes, to be sure---orginating in the SW pacific region. Ya know, I do not know of any of my intel weenie buds that thought a box cutter would fly through security. We play by the rules ourselves--so no one really tried it. the cautionary tales that came from the "whoops moments"--like when a screener handed my my assisted opening blade and asked if i could check it please---kinda gave us another perspective about what would be allowed or not. Honest people being honest. Hey, ya gotta trust somebody---and the airport bubbas had their job to do. So, box cutters got by and got by because they cased boston and found it wanting. Ya know---we played that kind of thing in the 80s--and the "public" was none to keen on SF types "casing" anything in CONUS (Nuke sites, naval yards, airports, pipelines). So, well, we just weren't on that page that day due to orders to not be on that page...

The real travesty, from being inside looking out--was taking so dang long to unleash the military against these asshats. De-legitimizing them by making it criminal was one thing---but killing them before they kill us is quite another. Legitimate or not--dead is dead. or so we all thought in our team rooms as the death toll rose, and prosecutions took years if they happened at all; itching to get our shot at 'em.

Joe M
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 19:22:27 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Immediately upon seeing the blast damage at OKC, I knew the size and composition of the bomb---just from the style of damage and the depth of damage into the structure. One eye on the construction material--exposed and the depth of exposure, and the other on the depth of the crater at ground zero tells ya a lot---like velocity of the explosion, for starters. It ws a nice big push. I was dead on accurate too. But big deal---I wasn't able to foretell of the attack...

Joe M
Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 19:35:55 (ZULU)

JoeM - wow a lot of knowledge in these parts. I did a little study once of how concrete craters and cracks depending on brisance etc.. The BGs have loved gas boosting since Lebanon and before too huh.

On a lighter note. One of my girlfriends sent me this:

WHY WOMEN SHOULD NEVER TAKE MEN SHOPPING

After I retired, my wife insisted that I accompany her on her trips to Target. I dislike shopping and she loves to browse. Yesterday my dear wife received the following letter from the local Target.

Dear Mrs. Crlentano,

We cannot tolerate the commotion your husband has caused in our store over the past six months. We have been forced to ban both of you from the premises. Our surveillance cameras document the following list of complaints against your husband:

1. June 15: Took 24 boxes of condoms and randomly put them in other people's carts when they weren't looking.

2. July 2: Set all the alarm clocks in house wares to go off at 5-minute intervals.

3. July 7: He made a trail of tomato juice on the floor leading to the women's restroom.

4. July 19: Walked up to an employee and told her in an official voice, 'Code 3 in house wares. Get on it right away. This caused the employee to leave her assigned station and receive a reprimand from her Supervisor that in turn resulted with a union grievance, causing management to lose time and costing the company money.

5. August 4: Went to the Service Desk and tried to put a bag of M&Ms on layaway.

6. August 14: Moved a 'CAUTION - WET FLOOR' sign to a carpeted area.

7. Augus t 15: Set up a tent in the camping department and told the children shoppers he'd invite them in if they would bring pillows and blankets from the bedding department to which twenty children obliged.

8. August 23: When a clerk asked if they could help him he began crying and screamed, 'Why can't you people just leave me alone?' EMTs were called.

9. September 4: Looked right into the security camera and used it as a mirror while he picked his nose.

10. September 10: While handling guns in the hunting department, he asked the clerk where the antidepressants were.

11. October 3: Darted around the store suspiciously while loudly humming the 'Mission Impossible' theme.

12. October 6: In the auto department, he practiced his 'Madonna look' by using different sizes of funnels.

13. October 18: Hid in a clothing rack and when people browsed through, yelled 'PICK ME! PICK ME!'

14. October 21: When an announcement came over the loud speaker, he assumed a fetal position and screamed 'OH NO! IT'S THOSE VOICES AGAIN!'

And last, but not least:

15. October 23: Went into a fitting room, shut the door, waited awhile, and then yelled very loudly, 'Hey! There's no toilet paper in here.' One of the clerks passed out..

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Thursday, October 29, 2009, at 19:41:57 (ZULU)

on surprise attacks:

Tom Clancy had "Debt of Honor" published in 1994 in hardcover. One of the plot elements was a suicide attack on a joint session of Congress with a fully fueled jumbo jet.

Clancy later describes to the BBC how he’d gone about writing this book: “I didn’t write Debt of Honor without first discussing it with an Air Force officer. And so I ran this idea past him and all of a sudden this guy’s eyeballing me rather closely and I said come on general, I know you must have looked at this before, you’ve got to have a plan for it. And the guy goes, ‘Mr. Clancy, to the best of my knowledge, if we had a plan to deal with this, it would be secret, I wouldn’t be able to talk to you about it, but to the best of my knowledge we’ve never looked at this possibility before.’” [BBC, 3/24/2002] Debt of Honor makes number one on the New York Times bestseller list. [Washington Post, 10/6/1994] Following the 9/11 attacks, there will be considerable interest in it, particularly because the Capitol building is considered to have been a likely intended target of Flight 93 (see (10:06 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [Washington Post, 9/12/2001; Daily Telegraph, 9/17/2001; Book Magazine, 1/2002; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 14]

Up to that point, Secret Service countermeasure for a plane attack on the White House would likely have been shoulder-launched Stingers. Not guaranteed effective with an aircraft carrying the mass and fuel load of a jumbo-jet.

So at least part of the USG had prior warning of such a threat. Realistically, I doubt there would have been the political will to take and pay for the countermeasures necessary to block such an attack *before* it occured.

- Enhanced security screening measures at all airports

- Armoring aircraft cockpit doors

- Enhanced combat air patrols and rules of engagement for aircraft flying near "sensitive" locations in CONUS.

I've heard that the direct costs have run into many billions of dollars. That doesn't factor in all the costs and increased inconvenience to the travelling public.

Of course, it also begs the question - did no-one in the US federal gov't or any ranking serving officers read a book on the best-seller list? Seems unlikely that at least of *few* of such persons didn't read it. As of 1996, 3 million copies had been sold.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, October 30, 2009, at 00:54:15 (ZULU)

I remember 911 the morning. I was sitting at my desk when my wife called to tell me about a plane hitting the WTC. "Osama Bin Laudin" I muttered over the phone. "What is that?" she said as the 2nd plane crashed into the tower the following moment. I had been reading something where he had been threatening to attack NYC or Washington D.C. But I can't recall what it was. I've been trying to remember where I had heard of it. It was about the first attack on WTC but where he had sent a threat or something. I just can't recall. Any way it was a sucker punch that couldn't have been forseen in my best guess. We haven't heard the last of these freaks. We've missed our chance to put the fear in these goons and it's too late to rectify it now. We're hosed. Now we do it the hard and expensive way.

Brogers
Friday, October 30, 2009, at 03:32:09 (ZULU)

re: OBL and associates

I don't think that fear is that big a factor for them at the executive level (fanatics). However, we did miss an earlier opportunity to take out OBL before he was able to move forward with his subsequent plans. 20/20 hindsight :-(

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, October 30, 2009, at 03:48:14 (ZULU)

Rod: I read it. Didn't seem likely that: 1) we'd go to war with Japan anytime soon; 2) we'd teach non-governmental sponsored ragheads how to fly. And, the FBI, knowing this, never bothered to inform the DoD. Even if they did, I doubt DIA would have consulted JSOC right off, either--let alone 5th Group, who would have had the best read on the mentality we were dealing with. We were way too compartmentalized back then. And, the crime there was most of this was by design from Clinton's DOJ---Gorelick? Yeah, her.

It's one of those "if pigs could fly things"---the terrs were sneaking bombs aboard and trying to take out passngers--not taking airplanes and driving them somewhere to make them da bomb. We kinda all had a dim view of them, ya know? Never underestimate your enemy--or, in this case AND never underestimate your own stupity for admitting any ol' bag o' bucks into flight schools for commercial airliners. Had ya asked me if they could get in to one on September 10th, 2001, I'd have laughed at the idea.

It'd be like getting nuked by Palu-Palu at sunrise tomorrow. Within a few years---some armchair quarter back who saw it coming will take us all to task. And who knows? Maybe some tourist saw it being loaded on the sailboat and tried to warn us:-)) "The Polynesians loaded their thermonulcear device in the war canoe and are heading to the US to take out their revenge for our colonization." (Doris, more coffee and congress's budget proposals for the department...and get this clown outta my office). Hey, it could happen. How's that for imagination. Two things the mil looks at: Most likely enemy actions and most dangerous enemy action. Our looking was, by law, overseas and limited at that. We kinda sorta thought the civies had our backs with all that other stuff---like airport security, intel between agencies not limited by posse comitatus and who we teach to fly the heavies. Ya know---state seems to want to get in the knickers of DoD when we invite foreign military officers to town---we just figured they'd be at least equally interested in free lance student visa holders. Who knew?

And worst of all--we had the continental ADIZ mission (air guard, at that), period. By law and by ROE. We were, at the time, trying to cope with this "win-hold-win" strategy with the forces left after Clinton's peace dividend---planning cells were in overdrive. But hey, we'll plan for anything--just let us know what. You really don't want DoD freelancing war plans inside the US without permission, do ya?

Joe M
Friday, October 30, 2009, at 04:28:18 (ZULU)

Rod: There was more'n once we had OBL lined up---and more'n once the Clintoon admin balked at H-hour. I am thinking you were not referring to his cruise down the Gulf with assets in place to make the take down happen...not that one? Man, the reasons for NOT doing it would make you puke.

Joe M
Friday, October 30, 2009, at 05:06:04 (ZULU)

JoeM, just to be clear, I'm not focused on 5th group or any division of the military. My criticism starts from the top.

IMO - It really didn't take a lot of imagination to mitigate at least some of what happened on 9/11/01. It really doesn't require much imagination to secure many of the gaps that remain....hell, a two day pow-wow with the people on this board would ID at least a dozen opportunities to improve that cost little and returned much.

The issue that drives me absolutely batshit crazy is that 9/11/01 could still happen and that second plane would be into the tower before intercept....that is Gross Negligence. In the corporate world, whole groups of managers would be seeking new employment right now....all I hear from government is excuses.

The DoD is no small entity...they have the resources to do a good job. I think it's time to start holding everyone to the standards our working class endure every day....DO MORE WITH LESS and DO IT RIGHT the FIRST TIME, else we will outsource your job.

medicjim
Friday, October 30, 2009, at 12:53:40 (ZULU)

MedicJim: I hear ya man. It took a change in law that is still being challenged by the dems and the ACLU to let this happen today---your military ever so cautiously looking at threats militarily that may originate from within CONUS. But back then---no way, no how. THE LAW WAS CLEAR, STRINGENT, AND VERY LIMITING! DoD was NOT going to be threat oriented on domestic enemies. And 9/11---once State cleared the perps to enter the US legally, was a domestic op. The ADIZ posture assumed a threat coming from Vladivistok or Medellin; NOT Boston. We (DoD) were not looking because you, the people kicked our asses when Nixon asked us to operate domestically once before. And a dem controlled congress went out of its way throughout the seventies and early eighties making sure the military and intel agencies would not even think "CONUS" in their day to day ops, let alone plan to do so.

As far as intercepts go, the guard put the resources up. They were there on initiative. But ferchrissakes---by the time the PA crash ended the last threat--how many planes were still circling to land? The FAA had no answers---their system was not designed to be AWACS-capable---and there was no hand-over available to an AWACs---the data was there--it just made no sense to the guys looking at it all of a sudden.

The FAA could not sort their own laundry that morning let alone the skies---and no one was about to start lighting up anything that flew without some idea what the picture was---because the authority to do so did not exist within the department. So, what orders are we to give the pilots of those F15Es and the F16s that WERE airborne? If it flies it dies? Flip a coin? Even birds down, odd ones lucky? DoD sure as hell could have---had they started the morning in charge monitoring all air traffic. Not their job though--and by design at that. This is an even clearer case of garbage in, garbage out--the FAA and their controllers could not interpret the data they sit and watch all day long in the macro when called upon to do so. Ya think DoD could do anything to solve that one?

Could we have run a sim on such a scenario? Per DoD's current marching orders--NO. Emphatically no! But the civilian authority could have--and could have invited DoD along for the fun. And it was assuredly their responsibility by design, by law--and by the will of the voters who handed the dem majority to the whackjobs that eviscerated DoD and the CIA...

Cheney absorbed an assload of info that morning in real time---and quickly and correctly saw the disconnects (nobody ever looked at the potential for such a coordination---and from DoD's perspective--their disconnect from this was intentional per the "people"--and the law kinda sorta bears that out)--and it was Cheney who made the decisions that ultimately enabled him to order planes in pursuit of flt 93 (the one that took care of its own problem internally). But remember---regional eroute centers were diverting airborne traffic willy-nilly trying to get everything on the ground---flt plans were out the window because civilians did not have a master plan and acted as they saw fit locally. So, there were a whole bunch of potential targets diverting from the filed routes. Big, huge mess---and one where death decisions needed to be made.

And if you had an ounce of understanding of the sheer mess that Cheney sorted out in no time (considering the magnitude)--and the BALLS it took to make a call based on "we think this is now the picture sir"---then maybe you'd look elsewhere for your scapegoat.

I dunno...but my gut recommendation would be to beat the snot out of the next liberal voter you meet. It devolves down to that, if you want the bottom line forensics. In Jersey, it is a target rich environment.

How do you know all this and think it could have been different?

All it would have taken is the order "Be prepared to assume control of the skies over America" with an incredibly important substep of placing the ATC system under quasi-military control ahead of time. We already figured we'd get that mission someday--and the plan is to shut down commercial traffic and turn the whole mess into a hot ADIZ---simple, quick and wholly unsuited for the mess of 9/11. What you seem to want is what I said at the head of this paragraph.

and that's congressional--and congress comes from the voter.

Joe M
Friday, October 30, 2009, at 15:04:10 (ZULU)

re: CONUS airliner threat

And the FAA still doesn't have their ducks in a row, even today:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/26/airliner.flyby/index.html

extract:

The flight data recorder also could prove valuable because it would have recorded actions taken by the pilots during the 78 minutes they did not respond to repeated calls from air traffic controllers, the ex-investigator said.

Meanwhile, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, which scrambled fighter jets for the wayward plane but did not launch them, said it was reviewing procedures for launching the fighters to track potentially hijacked or suspicious aircraft.

At issue is the Federal Aviation Administration's apparent delay in notifying NORAD the Northwest jet was not in contact with controllers, according to a senior U.S. official directly familiar with the timeline of the incident.

Watch how the military is looking at a possible FAA delay

The official, who declined to be identified because the military and the FAA are reviewing the incident, said the FAA's request for military involvement came after the plane passed the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport. NORAD scrambled fighter jets at two locations. But as they approached the runway for takeoff, the FAA reported being back in contact with the Northwest flight, and the fighters stayed on the ground.

"My real question is why we did not know of the 'radio out' situation from the FAA sooner," the official said. "The FAA is also looking into that."

Since the September 11, 2001, attacks, NORAD has regularly launched fighter jets to track aircraft in unusual situations such as when they deviate from flight plans, lose radio contact or enter restricted airspace.

According to a second U.S. official, NORAD is in constant contact with the FAA so it can respond when situations arise.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, October 30, 2009, at 16:56:49 (ZULU)

"I dunno...but my gut recommendation would be to beat the snot out of the next liberal voter you meet. It devolves down to that, if you want the bottom line forensics. In Jersey, it is a target rich environment."

You are, of course, correct. All responsibility ultimately resides with 'we the people', which is why I, as a stakeholder, want change now.

The military is the only entity with intercept capability, they still own some culpability. There is also that oath, something about "all enemies, foriegn and domestic"....sometimes, you have to be creative to find a way to do the job right...morons are a constant reality at all levels these days.

medicjim
Friday, October 30, 2009, at 17:13:28 (ZULU)

Aircraft coms- this may be somewhat dated, can't remember the dates of all the incidents, but:

FAA control centers can't talk to military aircraft directly. By the same token, military aircraft can't talk to FAA control centers, or maybe they can if their radios are properly tuned, which they generally wouldn't be. The control centers apparently can talk to each other-by phone.

There are a sufficient number of OOPS! communication events in FAA operations on a daily basis to make scrambling fighters on each unrealistic. The solution may well be drastically reducing the number of pilots/aircraft in common use. This flies in the face of current licensing practice of the "sport" pilot license which has a reduced training requirement. God knows what common sense may be present.

As an example, I'll mention a dude who filed a flight plan from Northern Virginia to somewhere in Georgia/Carolinas. Due to radio issues on the aircraft, the pilot did have a handheld radio for use if he had issues. Well, the installed radio died, the pilot set his transponder to squwak that he had no radio-but misdialed and was squwaking "hijacked". Until such time as the aircraft was ID'd from the flight plan as a Cessna, things got right lively for likely targets along the flight path. BTW, the handheld also failed (dead battery) and the pilot got a rude shock somewhere over NC when the F16s appeared on his wingtips.

It works the other way, too. Shortly after 9/11 several military helo driver groups decided they wanted to figure out how to get to our site and evaluate the terrain. Did they tell either us or the FAA? Oh, hell no! When we asked FAA for info, they could tell us they had the birds on radar, but couldn't talk to them. Could we contact miliatry flight control????? Nope!

Things have improved somewhat, we have NORAD on speed dial.

WR Moore
Friday, October 30, 2009, at 21:52:43 (ZULU)

WR Moore: There is the VFR tactical flights in the exclusion zones where we used discrete freqs to call CPs---for the other mil-types heads' up....and during such, we may have the local control on a radio or not--usually not. But we would not be expecting company down there in the pines that wasn't also painted dark green:-)) But when we entered normal airspace---we dialed up per ELAs like the rest. On IFR jaunts or cross country VFRs--we'd talk to enroute flight following and the towers like everyone else (or at least we said we would). If we were on have quick on the uniform set--that could cause problems, but even in the green, guard works on both victor and uniform just as advertised. Modern army aviation has the full suite, as long as it is tuned:-)) Or "on." Even the old hueys were retrofitted...I hated they took out the old NDB sets though---tuning TV stations for news was a great pass time in the clouds...

But the army (at least--can't speak for the other services)) does have a problem going "internal" in any and all uncontrolled airspace---and always in the exclusionary zones (MTAs and what-not restricted airspace).

Joe M
Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 03:39:28 (ZULU)

The HBV cheekwelders are being shipped later than I estimated because I wanted to add two improvements.

The first is: They are lined with the best material I could find. This was recommended to me by engineers from Kydex and JDC, the maker of the material. It is Crystler spec for - among other things - controlling the movement of power windows. The

The second improvement is to the process of making cheekwelders. Now it is a process rather than a series of disconnected projects. You would spot the difference in the product in a second. It's a much better product.

If anyone else needs a Winchester Stealth/HBV FN SPR cheekpiece, click and order.

CDC'
Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 09:35:31 (ZULU)

Go Dan, Rah! Thanks for the advice too.

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 11:11:32 (ZULU)

CDC: I've been following your posts on the various improvements to this fine product. Just as I was about to order--you mention this or that new way of making them...so I kept waiting. The wait is over.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 19:47:09 (ZULU)

Back on topic (sorry for all the many diversions):

I had my windshield replaced yesterday by a national company. The old one with its small crack now sits ready for the target line. The guy said, "heck, if you want windshields to shoot thru---come get 'em--we have all you could possibly want."

My first thought was "Bobbyworld." And my next thought was a pair of hinged A-frames, with a chain-link adjustment to angle the windshields for the various automobile profiles---like a giant saw horse with a shelf and clamp set to support the glass....

My next thought was training value for such data--does the deflection follow a pattern shot to shot in the same POA to POI from the same angled glass? Can it be predictive acounting for the various angles of glass/ angle of incidence? Military snipers and LE could use such data---especially with the confidence that comes from observing it first hand.

Best part is the medium is free.

Joe M
Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 20:28:51 (ZULU)

on windshields:

I'll bet a lot of the testing has already been done, but the testers aren't sharing their data in the open...

Chuck Taylor talked in newsstand magazines years ago about car "structures" as intermediate barriers for small arms, for example. (Windshields, doors, trunk lids, etc).

You might google "the Box of Truth" to see what they did already. I believe BKS was associating with them at one point.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 23:05:55 (ZULU)

Rod: Box o' truth says "shooting stuff is fun."

So, off to the windshield place we go...

Joe M
Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 23:28:59 (ZULU)

Windshields, redux:

Take lots of pictures :-)

The Box O' Truth seems to have done testing on windshields w/pistol rounds, but none with rifles. Some of the other testing was really neat.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 23:34:50 (ZULU)

Regarding windshields. Interesting conversation. To speak of what one shouldn't speak about. Circular confusion. I will say this though:

About 15 to 18 years ago, I got my hands on some windshields and did my own series of 'tests'. With a number of different firearms. The results were interesting to say the least, and I'll also add 'enlightening'.

It only left me with a few questions, whereas I had many when I started. I am glad I took the opportunity, when I had the chance.

As with nearly everything, I'm always looking to learn more. NEARLY everything.

Sean T.
Winnipeg, where there ain't no snow yet, but it's threatening....., Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, October 31, 2009, at 23:44:52 (ZULU)

re: windshields

I would love to do a little lab on windshields if I had enough of them :) From those who know, I hear the results are not intuitive, why my sidearm is .357Sig Gold Dot...hopefully will get me to the big talker ;)

Kat

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 01:23:53 (ZULU)

Pistol rounds and windshields:

Some of the lessons learned from "The Box O' Truth" testing

(They did bidirectional testing):

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1_2.htm

The more severe the angle of the windshield, the more deflection you are likely to see.

If you are ever forced to fire through the windshield of a vehicle, generally you should aim a bit lower than your intended point of impact to compensate for the deflection.

Since the deflection only happens when firing through the windshield glass, firing repeatedly from the same hole will remove the glass from the way of following rounds, meaning that you can hit your point of aim.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 02:03:18 (ZULU)

One of two reasons I'm working up a near 1600 fps hardball .357 Sig load...

Kat Girl
Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 02:33:13 (ZULU)

Windshields would make good target backers for rifle as well.

Remember our windshield testing as kids...We shot the shit out of this junk car that was in my friends dad's tree strip. Brought every rifle, shotgun, pistol we had, shot it up good and proper, holyer than holy and not one piece of glass left longer than 1/2"..stoopid stuff, we should have caught some ricochet..Found out later, my nose still has the mark from dad's reaction, that it was my friend's dad's desoto that he was going to restore at a later date. Oops. That's why fathers drink.

later

JR
Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 02:36:05 (ZULU)

Years ago someone (Gunsite?) did a series of windshield tests. Seems like Winchester 180 gr Silvertip .308 worked best.

I just made a batch of Savage 110 plain stock cheekwelders. (Geoff M: They fit the Stevens 200 perfectly). To order, click then do the obvious.

CDC'
Stamp out gun neglect - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 02:59:05 (ZULU)

Kat Girl:

Check out Cor-Bon DPX ammunition, also available in .357 Sig too. Even comes with California-legal-for-hunting copper projectiles :-) Barnes-X projectiles used, also available for handloading.

"It is also noted for extremely high weight retention when shot through barriers such as wood, car doors, windshields, and heavy clothing."

Expands well too. Primary drawback is price :-(

Google "dpx ammunition windshield"

Also Google "John Farnam DPX" - he's a big fan

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 03:10:04 (ZULU)

Barrier penetration and windshields -- 5.56 and 7.62, been there, done it, publicly available:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006smallarms/gandy.pdf

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008ballistics/Wednesday/Gandy_Lucid.pdf

sinister
Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 04:18:48 (ZULU)

JR: rotflmao -pee.

When I was little my dad took me to the hills to target practice. I put my bolt scoped .22 on the hood of his pride and joy, a 67 Cougar. I put the V22 crosshairs on the can downrange, perfect - But the sound... We both went, "KAZANGO??!!" Dad goes, "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?! THAT WAS AN ECHO!!" The hood of the Cougar is a little 'V' shaped and there was this nice new 2" groove in it...gahhhh. Not a fun memory. <giggling>

Kat Girl

Found a hood of an old car in the hills a long time ago and found that 1300fps .357 148HBWC backwards go through ;)

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 04:59:17 (ZULU)

Sinister: Well, the only problem with the data that I can see is:

I wasn't the shooter:-))

I want to play too...and I was thinking of working from 50-300 yards, using three angles of glass (pick up, sedan, and sporty), with my usual boolits (.223 in 75 and 77, carbine and SPR, .308 in 168 and 175, and 300 in 190....and maybe some TAP, shotgun sluggies under 100 yrds, and .45 in 200gr and 230grs) I am more interested in what happens after penetration, say about 20" from the glass...and, shooting stuff really is fun.

Imagine if wives read this? "YOU STOOPID MAN! LOOKIT HERE, THIS GUY HAS THE ANSWERS RIGHT HERE SO NO WAY YOUR GUNNA SPEND MY SHOE MONEY ON THAT HAREBRAINED BAG OF BULLETS SCHEME OF YOURS, NO WAY! ITS ALL RIGHT HERE--THE ANSWERS TO YOUR STOOPID QUESTIONS RIGHT HERE! YOU LAZY NO GOOD GUN WHORE---YOU THINK I AM LETTING YOU SHOOT THIS WEEKEND? NO WAY MISTER--YOUR GUNNA GET ON THE HONEY-DO LIST....NAG NAG NAG"

OK, so some parts of divorce do not suck.

Joe M
Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 06:15:08 (ZULU)

JoeM: "didn't you take out the trash yet? and where do these dirty socks belong?! Do you mind if we move that couch one more time back to the first place, I think it looks okay there after all. I think. Okay, no let's go back where it was."

"and who'hy do you spend sooo much time down there clunking away with that stupid blue thingy?"

"Honey, could you please sit down. I've been thinking..."

Feral guys start backing away, 'x-ing' their fingers "brrrrrrr" ;)

Kat Girl

SHE WITH THE MOST SHOES WINS

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 06:37:01 (ZULU)

:) Oh,shit Joe.

"I don't care who ya are, 'at's funny!"

sinister
Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 06:37:27 (ZULU)

I did a bunch of glass shooting, vs laminate, plate, tempered and glass blocks in the late 1990's. Information was interesting. I did some scenario stuff with target/glass standoff up to 15ft. Also did a little 10% gel testing also.

AP works great in 30cal, if not available, the monobloc projos are next best thing. Bonded core follows, with traditional cup and core bullets afterwards. High vel is not your friend but projectile mass is.

45/70 heavy cast was best, no shit. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 09:36:46 (ZULU)

coments:

There is a reason why 45/70 was used for buffalo hunting - penetration. I too had read that hard cast projectiles in 45/70 would penetrate more newspaper than cup and core .30 cal projectiles at high speed. Would expect similar trends in other materials.

All heavy furniture should be on (lockable) wheels large enough to move on the load-bearing surface :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 12:08:19 (ZULU)

JoeM-thanks, knew about the guard channel, didn't realize ground used it too (the brain doesn't work like it usta). I do know there's an almighty bunch of commo gear on flight decks, suspected a certain degree of sloth, not to mention a desire to ignore what wasn't mission directed/adding to confusion.

On this same note, the collision off Catalina appears to be at least partially a comm issue. Fishwrapper reports the C130 was told just before entering the MTA to contact military control, and supposedly didn't. The CG Herky was supposedly searching for some idiot who went out in high winds in a 12 foot skiff to assist someone else. Time of crash about dusk, so peripheral vision probably went out the window with night vision.

Ed Sanow is the guy who did comparative glass penetration testing and published some of it in a limited venue. I've got it somewhere. IIRC, the Nosler 180 gr .30 pill was the way to go. I expect the Barnes all copper would be better if sufficiently accurate. I've got the Hornaday TAP book here too for those who have the affiliation to get a copy, deflection wasn't a bad as expected but not all the laminated glass testing was available when I got my copy.

WR Moore
Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 14:09:07 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>"OK, so some parts of divorce do not suck. "<

I soooo agree!!

Having been divorced almost as many times as Liz Taylor, the bestest thing about divorce is you get another chance to be happy again.

'lito

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, November 1, 2009, at 14:43:30 (ZULU)

WR: Well, ground doesn't ordinarily have those sets--but I did when I was with certain units again at the end of my career (when I wasn't flying); we had UHF and VHF sets but that is not the usual suite for ground units. I was refering to my heli-driver days, though. Hmmm, did you know I tried to run away from SOCOM by going to flight school? I flew hueys and kiowas-- A, C and warriors. Not usually on topic.

Joe M
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 01:58:34 (ZULU)

Interesting...

Ultra Slo-Mo Video of Bullet Impacts

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/36977

or click...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, November 2, 2009, at 02:47:33 (ZULU)

I popped into the Aimpoint sight to see what is the latest version...

They've managed to make it complicated...there are a half dozen versions with very similar features... anyone current on what version offers the best combo fo cost and RELEVANT features for a point and shoot weapon sight?

medicjim
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 14:50:30 (ZULU)

Aimpoint- kinda depends, do you use night vision? Is being waterproof to 33 meters a mission requirement?

Aimpoint did kinda clean out the product line around middle of the year. There's a number of models with overlapping features that aren't being made anymore, bargins may be had on existing stock if very long term support isn't an issue. Hint: I've got a 3000 that's still working very well.

I'll defer to folks with more recent experience, I kinda like the 9000 series, although that mini sight is a real compact package.

WR Moore
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 15:28:44 (ZULU)

OKC: Wouldn't the diesel fuel in an ANFO reduce the brisance of the explosion? Or is it the release of the O2 from the nitrate, combining with the fuel, that increases the brisance? I would have thought something in crystalline form, rather than slurry, would provide higher brisance.

Then again, I don't know anything about explosives, other than "duck!" ....

Duman
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 16:11:58 (ZULU)

Medicjim on Aimpoint:

I have the Aimpoint H-1 (hunting version) on a pump shotgun. Works fine, very minimalist, great battery life spec. About the size of a small apple. Uses single CR2032 lithium coin battery. I use those for other apps, so it reduces my logistics. John Farnam is a fan of that family. The T1 has NV settings and uber-enviro specs.

Google "John Farnam aimpoint T1"

Good pricing on CR2032's from Digikey compared to retail stores.

Panasonic CR2032's

10 pack - $2.48

50 pack - $11

plus shipping and applicable taxes.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P189-ND

Digikey has a Canuck-friendly site too, and knows how to ship to Canada cheaply, quickly and cost-effectively. Highly recommended!

http://www.digikey.ca

The "recent" Aimpoint models have uber-life battery specs, whereas the just prior models are merely great battery life specs.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 2, 2009, at 16:47:14 (ZULU)

Duman: My way back time machine of a brain tells me that we simply stabilized the amonium nitrate with diesel/ jp8 due to the stuff's ability to suck water out of the atmosphere:-)) The RE factor was 0.42--and that slow burn would need additives with a heck of a lot more kick than petrol to kick it up enough to achieve the effects you are talking about. IIRC, the military cratering charges have a healthy dose of TNT mixed in, 25%, and now that I think about it, I do recall correctly:-))

Rod: I keep tripping over older aimpoint units, and the 9000 series long tube is starting to grow on me for the "two ring" mount capability. I have the single point mounted CompM2 on a pump shotgun, and maybe that is a problem for the rough handling it gets.

Joe M
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 17:50:26 (ZULU)

Million frames a second?

Not really :(

It is fairly easy to figure out what the real frame rate is on stuff like this - the bullets are ~1" in length, figure the on screen time for a bullet to travel it's own length, and then the math is easy.

Some of the films are humped up - that is, the loads that were driving the bullets were minimum and the bullets were barely coming out of the barrel... the 45 bullet coming out of the muzzle had no gas behind it (how'd they do that?? :))) - it was barely falling out of the muzzle.

In others, the bullet was an "already fired" bullet that was fired a second time out of a Sabot at very low velocity (a few hundred fps).

The best of them had bullets traveling ~1,000 to 1,500 fps, and frame rates were on the order of ~10,000 to 20,000 fps...

... but they are still pretty.

ANFO - the diesel fuel is ~6% of the weight of Ammonium Nitrate. It slows the speed of propagation of the wave very slightly, but it gives off more heat, so it is a positive addition - plus it does offer some protection from humidity, but since ANFO is mixed on site or a day or so before use, and not months in advance, that is a non-issue.

'lito

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 2, 2009, at 18:08:55 (ZULU)

Strictly from a fire-chemistry point of view...

ANFO has the oxidizer and the fuel co-located at the chemical level (my term)... when combustion occurs, there will be areas where combustion is perfectly matched and there will be areas where there is too much fuel or too much oxygen... those 'areas' eventually find each other in many cases and sustain the combustion event... thus, a slow blast in relative terms.

Explosives like nitroglycerine have fuel and oxidizer well balanced within the individual molecule... they combust much faster and more completely, creating one big, very fast bang.

If you could hold Oxygen and Hydrogen in as close a matrix as water, but somehow allow the combustion event to happen simultaneously for each molecule, you'd have one insanely powerful explosive.

medicjim
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 18:09:31 (ZULU)

Lito: The packaging was indeed a barrier for the hygroscopic properties, and we'd mix it for use upon taking it out of said packaging. But unlike our civie friends, we weren' always sure when we would light it off once prepped for use:-)) Prepped and ready, waiting for the enemy column to commit to a route that was about to have a great big hole in it was not a timed shot--but a command shot. We needed the stuff stabilized while it sits and waits on the unpredictable bad guys:-))

So that was why I made hay about that property. It was the primary military consideration for such use.

Joe M
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 19:13:33 (ZULU)

MedicJim.

True explosives do not use fuel and oxidizers, ergo, they do not/can not, burn.

Ammonium Nitrate is an explosive all by itself. When NH4NO3 explodes, there is a small bit of unused Oxygen.

2 Nh4 NO3 = 2 N2 + 4 H20 + O2

That last 02 molecule can be made to add a little more heat, so it is used to BURN some vapor phase fuel oil (it can be any organo-solvent, alcohol, mineral spirits, etc). The presence of fuel oil also makes the Ammonium Nitrate easier to "Shoot", cuz in the pure state, it is fairly hard to get going (a bitch to shoot).

Nitroglycerin, TNT, and other true (non-binary) explosives do not have fuel and oxidizers in them, they are very long chain molecules that are held together by high energy bonds, and when the bonds are broken, the whole thing comes apart fast, and after the explosion, the loose atoms recombine into whatever is around.

CatMan

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 2, 2009, at 19:24:20 (ZULU)

"loose atoms recombine into whatever is around."

So let's get the word out about this in the middle east. Then, we just chain a pig or two at every point we want guarded against the suicide bombers :-))

Heheheheh. "Allah, where are my promised virgins and what's with this curly tail and square nose?"

ANFO was boosted with 1 lb of TNT per 25 lbs of anfo; I kept it to 1:20 myself after tossing grains all over the range once on a big shot. Appparently, a single booster of 18 pounds of TNT in a 55 gallon drum of anfo isn't the correct answer. I shoulda used 30:-))

Joe M
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 20:07:08 (ZULU)

Lito - both Nitroglycerine and Ammonium Nitrate (see Texas City disaster and Kansas City, November 29, 1988 - both involved FF deaths) can and do burn, deflagrate or explode..or all three. The process that occurs when they detonate is different...I savvy, but it is still an oxidation reaction. I'm not 'armed' for a terminology fight on the subject, I cede to any who would challenge, I was just trying to provide layman insight as to the origin of push vs blast.

medicjim
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 20:49:43 (ZULU)

MedicJim: I prefer to think of it all in terms of burn rates. the 26000fps vs the 14000fps mean enough to me to apply the material to target in every situation I encountered. In simplifying it thus, I was able to focus my mind on the various targets; now this was where complications come into play:-))

P=plenty was a satisfactory solution right up until you put the ruck on your back.

Target analysis was where a demo guy in SF made his bones. RFI'ing a nation's ability to replace certain nodes was part of it, just as understanding critical nodes themselves for processes from gen step downs to oil refinery or pipeline delivery was. With all the brute force available---my team loved it when I came up with a well placed round or two from the sniper's systems. TA is money. Application of explosives, not so much. Although even there, I had access to exotic configurations that enhanced effects in certain materials---a lighter load-out was the result. That was money too, at least from my teammates. But in all cases, the velocity of the burn was all I concerned myself with for picking the explosive to the desired effects.

Joe M
Monday, November 2, 2009, at 21:30:42 (ZULU)

MedicJim...

TNT, Nitroglycerin, Dynamite, etc, do NOT burn. Burning is an oxidation reaction, two different things are required, an oxidizer (which does NOT have to be oxygen) and a reducer... like black powder... but TNT, Nitroglycerin, etc...

... none of these burn. They "DEFLAGERATE", which is a decomposition reaction.

Trust me on this one, you are applying layman's language to a very well defined area of chemistry/physics... and layman's language does not workie here. Because you see flames or fire, does not mean something is burning, it may be deflagerating

I have done a lot in explosives, and I know of what I speak.

Fluffy Whomper...

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 2, 2009, at 23:34:44 (ZULU)

you guys - a GF of mine just posted this it's on topic - you just have to see it (I only watched a part and it is funny)

byee

CLICK

kat girl

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 00:20:28 (ZULU)

Lito - I understand combustion, deflagration, oxidation and decomposition reactions. I do not have formal training in detonation.

Since you have criticized my approach. Please provide a superior explanation why ANFO creates a slow pressure wave and TNT produces a fast pressure wave. Use basic terminology, please.

Here is my source for Nitroglycerine as a flammable... I will admit, I have never tried it.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/nitroglycerin/recognition.html

I have worked with ANFO, TNT and other explosives in uncontrolled environments (fires). There are three active bluestone / aggregate quarry operations in or near my area of coverage. Blasting trucks transit through all the time. We've had two involved in major accidents in town.

Having seen the photos of the 1988 ANFO event where two whole engine companies were vaporized. I'm here to learn and nothing else.

http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-024.pdf

http://firegeezer.com/wp-content/photos/KC_explosion.jpg

Because of my Hazmat background. I have 'federal' invites for more advanced Nuke, CBRN and explosives mitigation training that I would love to attend....just waiting for the kids to grow up a little more.

medicjim
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 02:09:15 (ZULU)

Well, that would be why we added thermite to charges if we also wanted fires to result, say in a dust initiation sequence. But, if you don't like our mental imaging terms; we can always call it fred. It freds along at 1x,xxxx fps. On point initiations, aprticularly in C4, shape and lensing placement played a major role in forming the pressure wave to do things a charge that size usually cannot--and I am not talking about shape charges with your conical indent for gas jet formations. In those cases, it was handy to visualize the "deflagration" flowing along and thru the charge, and as it goes along in a given direction, to maybe have another doing the same and opposite at a given point...and where the two waves meet, well it exceeds the sum of its parts in a traditional sense.

Call it burn, deflagrate, or yihaaaa!--the terms are not so important outside the lab. We all know Red blows off oil well fires with explosives.

But, Lito, my friend, you are bucking etymology itself with your technical precision:-))

Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: def¡¤la¡¤grate

Pronunciation: \ˈdef-lə-ˌgr¨¡t\

Function: verb

Inflected Form(s): def¡¤la¡¤grat¡¤ed; def¡¤la¡¤grat¡¤ing

Etymology: Latin deflagratus, past participle of deflagrare to burn down, from de- + flagrare to burn ¡ª more at black

Date: circa 1727

transitive verb

: to cause to deflagrate ¡ª compare detonate 1

intransitive verb

: to burn rapidly with intense heat and sparks being given off

¡ª def¡¤la¡¤gra¡¤tion \ˌdef-lə-ˈgr¨¡-shən\ noun

Princeton Wordnet:

deflagrate

A verb

1 deflagrate

burn with great heat and intense light; "the powder deflagrated"

Category Tree:

change

¨^change state; turn

¨^burn; combust

¨^deflagrate

2 deflagrate

cause to burn rapidly and with great intensity; "care must be exercised when this substance is to be deflagrated"

Category Tree:

burn; combust

Well, you have your work cut out for you. The whole world thinks of deflagration as a burn thingie. Man...quixotic quest that, eh? Just deflagrate the windmill and be done with it, and we'll argue burn rates over a beer:-))

Joe M
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 03:18:31 (ZULU)

Did anyone say de-flatuate? My dog Nelson got into my bean burrito and I'm up for a wonderful bouquet tonight.

This conversation is educational and je me sens que mon cerveaux juste éclater (détoner).

;)

Kat Girl

de-flagellate?

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 05:39:26 (ZULU)

I shot our Sacramento long range tac match on Sunday and I saw something I never would have believed. In fact, I almost didn't want to post this because it really sounds like bullshit, but it's fact. We started the day with a cold bore shot from 1,000 yards. It had to be 8 ring or better on a silhouette target similar to the old B-27 but not quite. I get lucky and clip that 8 ring right at 6:00.

I'm on the first relay and the wind was very light. Almost no mirage you really had to look for it. They run the target up with the 6" spotter then pull it down to clean up and prepare for the next string. I put my next three in it and I have a little time left so I'm sitting there looking at the target.

I look and I'm shocked to see a little white dot a little low in the center of the target. Damn. It is the 3/4" white bullet hole paster and I see it clearly from 1,000 yards. I ask a buddy shooting next to me who is also running a Premier 5-25 and then he looks, and starts laughing out loud. He can see his too. Crisp winter morning, clean cool air, no mirage, morning sun shining directly on the target, white paster on blue target and I see the freakin' paster. Incredible.

By the time I got to the 600 yard line I could clearly see all of the pasters from the shooting at 800, 900 and 1,000. Plenty of white dots. From 300 I could see the .243 bullet holes really well too.

It was a great day all around and one of my more memorable matches out there. My rifle was shooting super tight so that was good advertising for my rifle building work.

One other memorable moment was the last stage of the day. It was a hostage target at 200 yards. The bad guy had a 2" red square target in the center and the hostage was right next to it. The line of the edge of the hostage face was the edge of the red box target. The deal is hits in the box were worth 10 points each. One hit to the hostage, which would be just touching the line of the edge of the face, would not only mean a zero for that stage but also a 20 point deduction. So I set up on that target and I'm so focused and in the bubble that I wouldn't have noticed it if you kicked me in the ass. Target comes up and I give my zoom a twist up to max right in on that red square. I set up just to the safe side of that box but still within the outside edge, just favoring to one side a little bit. Bang. Hole appears right there where I held. Hold in the center for the next two and they hit right there in the center about a half an inch apart. Those two different holds gave me a one inch group at 200 yards. Fucking awesome and a great way to finish the shoot.

MarcS
South S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 06:57:35 (ZULU)

What Marc isn't telling you is that he won the match by 39 points.

CDC'
Stamp out gun neglect - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 07:25:22 (ZULU)

GO MARC!! THAT IS FANTASTIC!

Kat Girl
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 07:39:57 (ZULU)

Marc: Bravo Zulu, Sir! Good on you.

Went to Badlands over the last weekend. Shooting was good, had some good days with old friends. Once again, the shooting spirits at the KD range had their way with me. Left my dope book on the LTR home, had to build a new one from memory. 500 yards, nothing worked. Sarge shoots it, right on. I shoot it, no go. Took a break, then I was right on. Must've been the Indian spirits again. GTG out to a grand, then we shot the culvert.

Off to the sandbox again tomorrow. Crap. Well, I'm just about halfway through the program set up, a year and a half to go. Not looking forward to the next rotation, things look like they're gonna be a bit mixed up. Laterz....

Charles S. Hunt
Spring Branch, Tejas, USA - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 12:52:28 (ZULU)

Thanks but I was on the first relay and winds were light. All of the other experienced shooters were on the second relay and they had a little more shifting winds than I did. The rifle is a tack driver all I had to do was hold 'em and squeeze 'em.

Glad you had a good time at Bobbies world Chuck. Stay safe.

MarcS
South S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 15:45:31 (ZULU)

All, I have been blatently stealing Joe's diatribe on health care and Government over-reach:

Sir, 30 October, 2009

I am alarmed and angered at the slight-of-hand maneuverings I witness within the Legislative Branch of our government. Perhaps you recall that Article 1, Section 8 does not allow you powers that are not specifically granted, they being reserved to the individual states. Perhaps that does not greatly concern you. Well it concerns me, and I, in part, determine whether you have a job come next the election.

All of the proposed healthcare bills are well outside any authority granted to you. According to your own oath of office, you will violate our trust, and our constitution, by any affirmative vote on these measures. True, the body to which you belong has viewed the Constitution as an inconvenience, but that is no justification for subverting the Constitutions clear meaning. The general welfare statement is not an open license; no power is granted to mandate health insurance upon the people of this country.

Do you realize the gravity of what you propose? It is not health care per-se that will constitute the disaster you invite. It is the enslavement of your constituents who will perforce become dependent on government health care, and the subversion of any constitutional limits on government action. If this is possible, then any government action is possible. No power will be beyond reach, no personal right an inhibition.

Marxists seek to initiate crisis, using it to justify their grasp of power. Government run health care (or health “insurance”) will ultimately ruin the health care system just as the baby-boomers come to need it most, creating a very real crisis before which private charity will be helpless due to the confiscatory taxation required to keep such a ponzi scheme afloat. This is monstrous, and cannot be characterized in any other way but a violation of your oath.

On a more personal level, what gives you the right to forcibly tell me how I should provide for myself and my family? The issue is just that simple: you -you yourself- are telling me personally, what it is I need, and that I am too incompetent to provide it on my own. This debate is not abstract, nor is it affecting some subgroup of pronouns—this is YOU assuming responsibility over my life with no basis in law. I resent this in the strongest possible way, and will remember it come Election Day.

I will make my own choices for myself and my family and not ask your approval. Washington DC, and its inhabitants are not welcome to meddle with my liberty to live my life as I see fit. Nor are you welcome to confiscate the wealth I have labored for to provide for my own family, in order to engage in feel-good vote buying schemes.

I understand my liberties better than most. I’ve spent a good portion of my life defending this great nation in places where such liberties are not recognized. I know what it is I swore to protect and defend: it was not Congress, nor was it the President, or the Supreme Court it was The Constitution of the United States. It is a document I have read many times, and fully understand; that great compact between equals. The understanding of, and the limitation of governmental power is the enabling condition for the greatness of this nation.

It is time you understood this as well. Repeat your Oath of Office to yourself, and reflect upon the meaning of the words. I also suggest reading our Constitution as it is written, not as you wish it to have been. The language is neither obscure, nor vague. Honor those who gave all by doing as you swore to do. We expect that you will, especially as this abominable debate moves to its final stages. You risk much: for our great experiment failing due to legislative hubris would render the sacrifices of those across the river full of sad irony, and the lives of our children full of deprivation, lies and sad ignorance of what once was.

Know that whatever betides I will not let unconstitutional power-grabbing stand uncontested, this time or ever again. I have been apolitical in my life, but no more. I cannot abide your complicit participation in any such action while my own oath rings in my ears. So I will add my voice to my neighbor’s, and work to begin overturning the mess Washington has become. You may yet force the issue of government run health care –elections only come so often- but ultimately America will right herself. She is more powerful than the double-speak, and procedural scheming that paralyzes her presently.

Just do your duty as it is written, while first understanding it - as it is written. In the mean time, keep your good intentions the hell out of my life, and my pocket!

That's gone out to all my Senators/Congress Critters

Be advised Nancy Pelosi is trying to ram-rod her bill with a vote late this week. Call, write, e-mail, bugg the S**t out of you representatives!

SSG Mac
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 15:59:49 (ZULU)

MarcS

Back from Fall trip. I think Rod sent you my #. Call me about the 1911. Hope you enjoyed your time here.

outa here

Markwell

Markwell
The Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 16:02:32 (ZULU)

MedicJim...

>"Please provide a superior explanation why ANFO creates a slow pressure wave and TNT produces a fast pressure wave. Use basic terminology, please. "<

The velocity of propagation of ANFO is 4200 meters/second:

The velocity of propagation of TNT is 6940 meters/second, Nitorglycerine is 7700 meters/second, and PETN is 8400 meters/second.

In Dynamites, the following is why there are high power and low power dynamites.

Dynamite "Ammonia" 20% = 2360 m/s

Dynamite "Straight" 20% = 2790 m/s

Dynamite "Ammonia" 30% = 2760 m/s

Dynamite "Straight" 30% = 3600 m/s

Dynamite "Ammonia" 40% = 3180 m/s

Dynamite "Straight" 40% = 4460 m/s

Dynamite "Ammonia" 50% = 3580 m/s

Dynamite "Straight" 50% = 5100 m/s

Dynamite "65%" Gelatin = 6500 m/s

So you can see that the more Nitroglycerine, the faster the wave front, and the more power.

In all cases, the base absorbent is not an inert material, it is also consumed, one one case the base is Ammonium Nitrate, and in the other, it is Nitrocellulose.

The reason that TNT, PETN, and NG is more powerful (for an equal weight of explosive) is that the velocity of propagation is higher.

It is simple - the velocity of detonation is what makes an explosive high (like TNT, PETN, and Nitroglycerine), or low explosive like 20% Dynamite.

Kitty Whomper.

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 16:42:47 (ZULU)

Lito - yes, I thought we were clear that different materials have different outcomes....the Q at hand is WHY.

What I was saying is that the 'Physical' properties of the chemistry (as in P-chem) are what dictate the rate of decomposition...I did so in layman terms which I thought you objected to...

I figure there are three possible scenarios here...

#1 - I'm flat out wrong... I really want to know if this is the case

#2 - I used terminology that was grossly inadequate...I'm interested, but it likely won't kill me... please respond

#3 - You misread what I wrote ...no need to respond, I have nothing to prove

medicjim
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 17:04:31 (ZULU)

SSG Mac: I detect a needed edit or many there:-)) That one was like this one---a mental dump of consciousness. This went out today to the clowngress:

Dear Congressman Kind and Staff,

I want to thank you for awakening the somnambulent citizens of this country to the fact that their casual use of their franchise has consequences. While you and your party have garnered our attention over these last months, you are now ignoring us as we speak out. Do you wish to rule us or to represent us? By whose consent do you govern? These are questions you can ponder now or in your forced retirement.

I personally wish to thank you for enraging me to the point that my desire to stop this madness finally overcame my distaste for politics. I have sworn an oath as a proud veteran of long service, and recently swore an oath to dedicate my time and money to the removal of anyone in congress that advances this agenda of socialism.

Reform? Son, what you have before you is not reform. Reform is needed, but reform that addresses the cost structures in healthcare. The approach your party chose is to assume the mess, as-is, on the backs of the taxpayers. The only reform coming, at a future date, is to curtail costs by decree. Cap and Trade? Energy costs will "necessarily skyrocket" according to President Obama. And card check? Subvert the secret ballot to whose gain?

You know as well as I the challenges this nation faces--and this legislative batch of malarky serves only to exasperate the worst of our problems:

1. National Debt, current deficit spending and trade deficits as we import our energy needs and export our jobs with our dollars and debts.

2. Never ending growth of public expenses. Read that as "government."

3. The combination of 1 and 2 as we "monetize" our debts.

How in God's name can we justify adding to our debt at the prodigious rates of this last year, let alone the current 1.8 trillion deficit projected for the current FY? And that is without this healthcare reform item included!

Sir, with all due respect, I think congress is off the deep end and completely out of touch.

And as such, I am dedicating my money and my time for the first time in my life to remove you and those who would vote with you from office. And I think it would be great fun to find someone to the left of you and organize financing just to split your vote. In terms you may find familiar: The ends justify the means.

You may want to take a closer look at what is going on here and nationwide. We are mad as heck, and ignoring us is an old hat strategy--only this time we are not going away. Not this time--the stakes are too high. The lesson you are providing has hit home: Our votes have consequences, and it is up to us to inform our fellow citizens when you and the media fail to do so.

I just hope the dollar holds up that long...we need adults in congress serving the people, not beholden to their party. I may run for your seat myself if it comes to that.

On the other hand, surprise me and stand up for the nation and its people--and fight for real healthcare reform and be the guy who draws that line. Propose loser-pays tort reforms, give the tax credit to the individual for insurance, tear down state barriers to comptetition and allow choice in coverage, mandate some level of savings exemptions and cost sharing so we have some buy in as individuals, force healthcare providers to accurately post costs, even if it is hourly rates--and let us make our own choices as you focus on helping those who cannot help themselves with expanded programs, means tested and administered locally. I'll lick envelopes in your campaign offices if you do this. That is a start on what is true reform. Healthcare costs too much for reasons, and congress shares some blame in those reasons--so reform the cost structures. But do not coopt the broken system into ours, the taxpayer's, back pockets!

I am neither democratic nor republican---I am just an American who is scared for my nation for the first time in my life. If any one of four nations decide to dump the dollar---martial law will not be adequate to prevent a very bad outcome for the people. Sir, the dollar is the problem--your spending is a major part of that problem--and your eye is not on the ball.

Finally, reflect on your oath of office, read our constitution and do your duty as we entrusted you to do. That is all we expected of you, and now we are begining to demand this of you. Hear us, or, begone.

vr,

Joe M
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 19:16:55 (ZULU)

JoeM/SSG Mac: nice letters! To important too bury under bad S/N with my silliness - I'll post later

Kat Girl
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 20:24:02 (ZULU)

FWIW-I've heard from a couple of explosive guys that the reason quarry operations use the ANFO type stuff is the slower rate of propagation. According to those dudes (IIRC), the slower pressure wave results in greater shattering action, which is preferrable for that type of application.

I've got a 1917 US Army Field Engineering manual that shows the means of brewing ANFO used in them thar days. They used a whole lot more FO than is the present case. If the guys quoted above, and at least one previous poster are correct, they added extra FO to slow things down and increase the shattering effect.

WR Moore
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 21:04:18 (ZULU)

WR Moore: The lower RE stuff doesn't have the brisance--or slap, or shattering effect--it has a "push." Brisance will give you a nonhole that is filled with shattered rock; the slower stuff will give you a hole with the displaced stuff all over the half acre:-)) That is why the military "cratering charge" is filled with ammonium nitrate and not C4. But, if crushed rock is your goal, the C4 would get 'er done. If excavation is your goal--slow is better.

Joe M
Tuesday, November 3, 2009, at 21:32:08 (ZULU)

okay, crickets and echoes...

nice thread guys :)

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 01:11:51 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Your neighbors offered the nation a bit of a surprise tonight. Let's hope the message changes some things just down I-95 :-)

Joe M
Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 04:22:50 (ZULU)

JoeM-Ah so, thanks, have some theory and that was a long time back. IIRC, took me a wee bit to figure out the reason you planted such a large charge on a railroad frog-you wanted much more than a broken track.

RE Joisy- I guess even Jersey has a limit for graft....or was it taxes? Anyone care?

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 13:54:22 (ZULU)

"Many heroes lived .... but all are unknown and unwept, extinguished in everlasting night, because they have no spirited chronicler."

- Horace

Duman
Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 15:22:31 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

Do you know what the field manual number is? FM-?? I may have it in my stack-o-stuff....

Duman
Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 16:16:56 (ZULU)

I think the motivation for NJ to elect a repub has more to do with local issues than the broader agenda. Corzine was a rich hypocrite that did nothing to address excessive taxes, corruption or institutional reform. When offered an option of any flavor that looks like he might "do something"...the outcome was predictable.

The loss of a purist repub in NY state is worth exploring... I think the key to success for the Repubs on the national stage is modeled there... you cannot shove a ultra-conservative agenda upon a moderate population.

Pick your battles or lose the war.

medicjim
Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 16:24:16 (ZULU)

>"The loss of a purist repub in NY state is worth exploring... I think the key to success for the Repubs on the national stage is modeled there... you cannot shove a ultra-conservative agenda upon a moderate population."<

The conservative lost not because he was a purest, but because he came into the race at the end, and had almost no financial backing... he was an accountant with no political history (and not a very good public speaker) and he still came within 4 points of the winner... if the repubs had a real "conservative" candidate and backed him/her from the get-go, the dems would have easily lost - the 23rd district is very republican - and fairly dopey - the drop out republican bimbo got 5% of the vote and had already dropped out - I guess TV and radio hasn't made many inroads up there yet :)))

If you combine the republican vote and the conservative vote, you beat the democrat by 1+ points.

Kitty Whomper.

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 18:04:41 (ZULU)

Duman,

If you are referring to the Army demo manual it is FM 5-25. Latest version out is 2004 edition I believe.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, November 4, 2009, at 23:58:35 (ZULU)

Good news from The Great White North

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2184897

(Canadian) MPs vote to scrap long-gun registry

Janice Tibbetts, Canwest News Service Published: Wednesday, November 04, 2009

OTTAWA -- MPs voted by a clear margin Wednesday to repeal the federal long-gun registry, signalling for the first time since the program was adopted 14 years ago that it is headed for the scrap heap, despite police assertions that it saves lives.

A private member's bill, sponsored by Conservative backbencher Candice Hoeppner, had the backing of all the Tories, from Prime Minister Stephen Harper down, and enough Liberal and New Democrat MPs to clear its first major hurdle of winning support in principle.

The bill passed by a surprising 164-137, winning more supporters than expected as 18 opposition MPs rose to cast their votes with the government.

The proposed legislation now moves to an all-party committee for public hearings before it returns to the House of Commons for a final vote and then heads to the Senate.

"It's step one but there is still a lot of work to do," Ms. Hoeppner said outside the Commons after her bill passed second reading.

The bill would only end the long-gun portion of the registry, eliminating the need to register rifles and shotguns. The requirement to register handguns would remain in place.

If the bill makes it through Parliament, it would mean the dismantling of eight million firearms records, say police.

The registry has been the source of many court battles, bitter party infighting between rural and urban MPs, political rhetoric -- and a scathing 2002 report from the federal auditor general that found that final tab to implement the program would ring in at more than $1-billion, dramatically more than the $2-million original estimate.

The Harper government, which has strong rural support, has introduced legislation to kill the registry, but the bill has languished due to a lack of opposition support and government will to propel it through Parliament.

MPs are normally permitted to break ranks from the party line for private member's bills, giving Hoeppner's initiative enough support from dissident MPs to succeed, even though the three opposition parties officially support the gun registry.

Pressure was on MPs to show up and the Commons was packed, with 301 of 304 casting votes -- including a Bloc Quebecois MP who was wearing a mask because he suspects that he has the H1N1 virus.

Supporters and opponents have campaigned nationwide in recent weeks in an attempt to sway the outcome of the vote, lobbying in newspapers, on radio and in the hallways on Parliament Hill.

The Conservatives backed radio ads urging Canadians in swing ridings to call their MPs to voice their opposition to the registry.

The registry was adopted 14 years ago by the former Liberal government as part of a wider gun-control package, largely due to lobbying from the families who lost daughters in the 1989 Montreal massacre, when Marc Lepine used a semi-automatic rifle to kill 14 women at Ecole Polytechnique. Mothers of victims have campaigned relentlessly in the last week to preserve the registry as a vital component of gun control.

"I'm a mother as well and I completely sympathize," said Ms. Hoeppner. "Unfortunately, the long-gun registry didn't do anything to stop criminals from having guns. It was a huge waste of money and it targeted the wrong people."

Police, who normally side with the Harper government on law-and-order initiatives, have been at odds with the Conservatives over the program, maintaining it is an important crime-fighting tool that they use often.

The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police asserted in a news release Wednesday that the registry has saved lives.

The chiefs say that Canadian police tap into the registry more than 10,000 times a day.

"Some of the most important queries are about domestic violence calls, which every police service in Canada receives," said association president William Blair.

"This is not a regional issue. It is not an issue between big cities and small towns. It is not about hunters and sportsmen, collectors and enthusiasts. It is not about politics.

"It is about public safety. It is about giving police the information to deal with the danger posed by a firearm in the wrong hands."

Montreal police Chief Yvan Delorme said that registry proved its value following the September 2007 shooting at Dawson College in Montreal, when police heard of threats made by another individual and they were able to check him out, learn he owned several weapons, and confiscate them.

Public Safety Minister Peter Van Loan echoed the long-held Conservative position on the registry, when he denounced it Wednesday as an ineffective waste of money that punishes law-abiding citizens.

Registry opponents say it should be enough that gun owners must hold licences, but supporters say that licensing does not help police track how many guns an owner has.

- With a file from Mike De Souza

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 01:24:42 (ZULU)

Rod Regier For President!

Yes folks, that is how much I like what he says!!!!

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Mb, Canuckistania - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 01:32:37 (ZULU)

Sean T:

appreciate the kind words.

How's this for irony? Unlike Arnie, I could be President of the United States without a constitutional amendment. I was born in California and have not relinquished my US citizenship.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 01:43:53 (ZULU)

Yeah, but being from New Scotland, how's your accent? better or worse than corrupted Austrian..

JR
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 02:13:09 (ZULU)

JR: I have a bit of an accent, but nothing like Arnie's. You probably have more of an accent than I do from all the time you spent in (old) Scotland {grin}. I enjoy the Scot accent, even if I can't always understand what they're saying.

I do phone support on occasion with customers all over North America, they don't seem to have too much of a problem understanding me.

I resided in California and Ohio before moving to North Carolina at age 8. I then resided in North Carolina from age 8 thru 13 before moving to Nova Scotia, but didn't pick up much of a Southern accent. It probably does make it easier for me to understand my customers who have a Southern accent. I think my linguistic patterns were pretty well established by the time I was 8.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 03:25:12 (ZULU)

Great news! "Oh Canada la la"

I love the quote "it's not about sportsmen...not about blah blah...it's about public safety!" from the politician/mayor/chief whatever. Lying such and suches.

It's about big bureaucracies managing the records etc and the cash flow and the cost supporting them as well as the upper-doo-doos who get their hands at managing/diverting the flow -

unless it's about the theme of Lester Grau's study on (how to) controlling an urban population...firearm registry is right there on the top list of 'gotta dos'

Bavarian? I've had two friends from there but one grew up in Cannes so her accent was both!

Kat Girl
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 03:25:58 (ZULU)

MedicJim: NY23 has a lesson, but the victors will not take note until it is too late. Dede was appointed by patronage, and the conservative party guy was paying his own way along. After a visit by Biden, Dede goes away and endorses the dem. But her name--with that (R) next to it, satys on the ballot. Plus, Watertown is short some brigades right now who voted early (but not often)---before Dede dropped. Dede got 5.6% by those few unlucky early mailers, and quite a few braindead Repubs that vote anything next to that (R). In upstate NY, where the Reagan conservatism is thought dead---a straight campaign by such a cabdidate would have won. Two choices, D and R, or D and C---with no third murky drop out choice to siphon away votes---what do you think would have happened?

This is a center right nation that hiccuped. The masses voted "not Bush"--and they are now getting a painful civics lesson in the irresponsible use of franchise. Heheh. Hope and change, change and change was empty rhetoric where the less aware among us simply slipped in our wants and desires in those big empty blanks---and those morons are now growing disillusioned or already are. We've always been a "fool me once" kinda nation, eh?

The problem is, the dollar is in a death race to last until 2010.

Joe M
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 04:14:30 (ZULU)

"Some of the most important queries are about domestic violence calls, which every police service in Canada receives," said association president William Blair.

Oh boy. Where to begin? Unsubstantiated call comes in, and the process of stripping rights hath begun in earnest...

I would sure miss due process if that happened to me.

Now let's say we make laws (and we do) that pre-punish allegations of criminal behavior. You know, like fortfeitures of firearms on the domestic stuff and property for the DEA stuff...and let's say this is common knowledge. When does the average domestic problem arise; when the womenfolks are happily spending your jack on heels, or when you yell at her for spending your jack on heels? So, you done pissed 'er off---she wants revenge. Spurious charges get trumped up, off go you and your guns. Revenge served cold. And, it is a statistic---"Hey--look at all the domestic violence (charges) going on! Something needs to be done." Police statism feeds on itself, fulfilling its own prophesies. Not sayin' all domestics are BS---but when we create these scurrilous laws--we create more problems than we ever could solve. First, the cry wolf factor as those falsely accused fight back and eventually win, and second, IT IS a slippery slope when you mess with the presumption of innocence--no matter how evil you think the drug dealer is, or the wife beater is, or the falsely accused of the same is...they all get we would also get---and there it is. It occurs to me that politicians wrote the addage: "garbage in--garbage out."

And just wondering: How safe is it for the poor dude sipping his beer, unaware his wife dimed him out for abusing her with a phone call cuz she's on a red-dot day and he ain't changing the channel from hockey fast enough---as the mounties are charging in thinking: Dude's got an arsenal in there---better lock'n load...

Joe M
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 05:01:35 (ZULU)

Subject: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=153670&l=0df6edef9a&id=1817827371
CALPIRG canvasser for insurance reform - just proved to me that they're more about gaining spiritual points then they are about people. I told her I can't, that I had $1 until Sunday...she said great and asked me for it. I found out that another Calpirg canvasser was fighting with an young friend of mine in SF who works hard to have a roof and food with her own business. She's at an age and has the looks to be out socializing and finding out how attractive she is, but not enough funds. The bitch was arguing with her for her money after Naomi explained her situation - if you check out the CLIK thread you'll see how humane they are.

It's too bad no one realizes how safe trained people are. I was going to take Nelson for a ride to a cheap grocery in a dicey part of town and had 2 blades, P229 extra mag with me, but I told the driver it wasn't his fault (decency to stop) and the officer (my town is great) who stopped was terrific but I asked him to borrow a back board - he didn't have one.

That beotch didn't even have the decency to come out in the street where I was curled up with my dog. You guys were right.

Kat Girl
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 08:02:58 (ZULU)

Joe:

Canadian Firearm Centre is really gung-ho on the domestic partner issue, definitely a "guily until proved innocent" theme going on there. They even have a 1-800 hotline for "concern reporting".

The mind-blowing idea is that police brass make a big deal about the registry being an important factor in officer safety. Any properly trained officer realizes that treating *all* calls as possibly having weapons present is the only proper response. Relaxing because the registry says "oh it's safe, no registered firearms at that address" is a suicidal tactic. As usual, there is a big difference in attitude between front-line police officers and the political top police brass on the topic. The chiefs serve at the whim of municipal politicians.

This is great news for pro-gun forces elsewhere. "Look, Canada tried running universal registration and found the expense and effort wasn't worth it, no measurable improvement in actual public safety!".

It was politically too dangerous to drop the whole registration thing (Handguns have been registered since the 1930's in Canada), but de-registering "vanilla" long guns was deemed acceptable. How often have you seen a gun control measure legislatively rescinded in any jurisdiction? Not very often.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 11:00:43 (ZULU)

rarer than seeing a tax backed off.

I was a passenger in a gf's car racing through the Canadian Rockies in the middle of the night with her lime green girl sports car. Flashing lights behind us and we pulled over. She immediately dives into her purse grubbing around for license, permit conduire or whatever and I'm like squirming and almost yelling "Kimmy, you're going to get us killed, keep your hands where they can see them - oh shit we're going to get killed!" <my hands were showing already> - the RCMP guy couldn't care less and was so nice! I was stunned. He ended up by letting her go and saying, "and be careful, I'd hate to see what you'd look like if you hit a moose eh?" Awesome. Soo nice. We were between Banff and Jasper around 11pm and she was a lead foot. We got to see Aurora Borealis that night and hear the crackle - oh, I came home that year with a perfect Edmontonian accent which annoyed my mom no end. I think we actually clipped an elk that night and I was trying to get her to stop to see if I could collect something for her dad's freezer. Hey, I hear you can get a prion like BSE from Elk now? Nuts!

Years ago in an anthropology class I heard the personal difference is in defining oneself "a servant of the people" and the other "defender of the law"

Interesting

Kat Girl

I got out at Oct 31 before the N2 started liquifying from the atmosphere!

Kat Girl
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 11:19:24 (ZULU)

Joe / Lito - I see a difference between Reagan conservatism and extreme right social activist. Both the Dems and the Repubs seem to want that line blurred.

medicjim
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 14:19:22 (ZULU)

Kat Girl...

WTF is "CALPIRG"???

I found the officials in Canadia to be top of the line professional without being crude like some of our home grown variety.

Back in the mid 80's, I wanted an ETO Alpha 8,000 watt linear amplifier. It was made in the USA, and I could own it in the USA, but they couldn't sell it to me in the USA :(((

So I paid for it, and had it exported to Canadia. The folks up north were terrific. I got through Canadia customs in 20 minutes and they even gave me my $1,100 import landing tax back, but getting it through my own God damn rude customs took 11 hours, even though I had all the FCC papers and licenses in order :(((

Kitty Snuffer

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 14:39:48 (ZULU)

MedicJim...

Both groups have their 5% extreme fringe, but the average "Democrat" is more towards the fringe than the average Republican, and the extremists in the democrat party have much more control over the whole agenda than the extremists in the Republican party.

And... the conservatives are willing to discuss their point of view, where the Democrats will not exchange facts, they call names and insult.

When the debate is on facts, figures and outcomes, the dems always resort to insults and name calling.

Fluffy Whomper

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 14:47:33 (ZULU)

Kat Girl:

In The Great White North we don't get N2 liquifying in the winter, but the CO2 is occasionally endangered :-) It can be quite a contrast to visiting my relatives in Florida.

Hope your doggie is doing better...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 16:42:14 (ZULU)

Major Joe, you need to get out more and quit worring so much about what happens when someone calls in a false report on you. We cops may come and talk with you but afterward if the claim is false you can go after the person who made the false charge. I wonder what happens when a military takes apart a country looking for WMD's? The point there is either military or LE we do what is legal and follow orders as long as legal. We dont follow illegal orders. Both military and LE are full of good men and women attempting to do right. If you dont like the law overturn it through proper channels.

This station now returns to Iraq where this old cop is wearing ACU's embedded with US Military. Fine young men and women all around me just like at the PD

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
ca, - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 16:48:17 (ZULU)

Mike,

Bullshit.

Be safe.

Travis Morgan
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 17:01:06 (ZULU)

Lito', 8000 Watts ?? You must have had a lot of QRM around your QTH.

Was it for breaking through pileup's ??

Regards,

Joisey Steve

P.S. Pls "E" Mail me as the "E" Mail I have for you no workie.(:

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, Usa - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 17:14:09 (ZULU)

Sorry Mike: That is a canadian law and I thought I said "mounties" somewhere along the way...if not, my apologies.

In the past, I have expressed my opinion of LEO, and was married to one at that. I also stated along the way that a few bad apples make it hard on the rest, and how the brotherhood thing kinda plays into that negatively; circle around anyone in blue isn't always smart--but it happens often enough. That adds fuel to Travis's fire. His perspective, obvioulsy, is to paint with a very broad brush. I have tried to walk the middle on this one....if I failed to make that point--then you have my sincere apology. I know for a fact that there are fine and great LEOs serving all over the nation...just as i know there are tools in the military that make us all look bad too. But when those appeared in my field of fire--I shitcanned them if they were unsalvageable as their CO. I certainly did not defend them. Ha, I was both the prosecutor and the judge:)) I think it doesn't help when denial flies in the face of fact, and we are all human and can make mistakes. I may not always get that point across, but I am not as far off the deep end as Travis in my indictments.

Hey, if'n I make no sense these last days, it is the pain or the meds for the same. Stones are no fun. But as far as pain goes, kidney stones are of a very high quality. Some people get pneumonia with their flu, all I got was dehydrated...

Joe M
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 18:27:00 (ZULU)

Hey Joisey...

>"Lito', 8000 Watts ?? You must have had a lot of QRM around your QTH."<

I broke a pile up or two :))))))))))))))))))))

Meow Masher :))

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 18:35:02 (ZULU)

Mike Miller...

>>>The point there is either military or LE we do what is legal and follow orders as long as legal. We dont follow illegal orders.<<<

I've been retired from the Military (Navy) for about 30 years, but when I was in, we were told to Follow the incorrect or illegal order and report it AFTERWARDS...

Larry

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 19:11:14 (ZULU)

Larry: That is not what they are teching now. Kinda hard to undo an atrocity once done, so they created a big dilemma for those unfortunate enough to have to make the choices. Fortunately, the scum who would issue such things have many hurdles to clear along the way, and it generally weeds them out. Elections may not do the weeding....and that is a touchy subject indeed. What I try to impress upon is just that--touchy, yet discussed. It is far better to have an understanding of what illegal looks like ahead of time, eh?

Joe M
Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 20:24:39 (ZULU)

JoeM,

I understand. Their reasoning was that - being dumbshits - we (the enlisted swine) were not knowledgable of all the details and could not make an informed decision...

Larry

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 20:36:09 (ZULU)

***Hey All***

Ft. Hood,

SHTF, I'm sorry for, and praying for, the members and their families.

Out.

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Mb, Canuckistania - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 22:05:13 (ZULU)

FORT HOOD, Texas – A soldier opened fire at a U.S. Army base in Fort Hood, Texas on Thursday, unleashing a stream of gunfire that left 12 people dead and 31 wounded. Authorities killed the gunman, and apprehended two other soldiers suspected in what appears to be the worst mass shooting at a U.S. military base.

The shooting began around 1:30 p.m., Lt. Gen. Bob Cone said at a news conference. He said all the casualties took place at the base's Soldier Readiness Center, where soldiers who are about to be deployed or who are returning undergo medical screening.

"A law enforcement official identified the shooting suspect as Army Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan. The official said Hasan, believed to be in his late 30s, was killed after opening fire at the base. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the case publicly.

The official says investigators are trying to determine if Hasan was his birth name, or if he changed his name and converted to Islam at some point in his life."

In Washington, President Barack Obama called the shooting "a horrific outburst of violence." He said it's a tragedy to lose a soldier overseas and even more horrifying when they come under fire at an Army base on American soil.

"We will make sure that we get answers to every single question about this horrible incident," the commander in chief said. "We are going to stay on this."

MarcS
South S.F. Bay area, CA, - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 23:07:51 (ZULU)

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=413809

The person identified as the primary shooter was a Major/O4 from Virginia. He was also a Muslim convert. Sources have told Fox and the Temple Tx reporter that the Major was unhappy about his upcoming deployment to Iraq. No info as to rank, etc, of the two other soldiers currently in custody.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 5, 2009, at 23:12:43 (ZULU)

btw the officer who happened by when I was curled around Nelson in the middle of the street was super nice and has been on our city's force for around 12 years. In between blubbering and snot ick, I thanked him and for being on such a great team as our city's dept. He gave me his card to find out what happened.

Fort Hood - I can't believe it, and at a MP, Medical, Dental kind of place! More than one? I want to wait until the dust settles before I read more - more than one participant? <shakes head> feel so sorry for the friends, teammates and families. It's like the beginning of 'The Kingdom!'

Joe: I hope your kidneys feel better.

Lito: 8kW Linear RF amp? off-shore pirate radio time? Just had to win a QRP contest? ;)

Rod: thank you - he is. But may require surgery I can't get.

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 00:32:13 (ZULU)

Lito:

May I delicately inquire how 8KW related to the PEP rules of the day for the relevant service and license class?

That seems to be at odds with my very casual knowledge on the topic...

http://hamradiomarket.com/articles/Amps1.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 01:13:49 (ZULU)

Joe, get well soon. Good discussion.

Travis, I probably dont have your wealth of imagined knowledge on the subject (only 30 plus years since I got into LE) so please enlighten me and show me with some facts of the "Bull shit" I used.

Honestly your approach is "I feel this way so it must be true" Sound like all the liberals who fear guns because they scare them.

Thank you for your concern for my safety but honestly I was in more danger when I worked as a patrol cop. Here I have layers of defense before the bad guys get close to me, unless they get lucky and drop a mortar on my head. Now the young brave men working here at and outside the wire, they need all are prayers.

On following illegal orders. Sorry lads that dont fly for LE or Military. If it does not pass stink test you dont follow it or you get same as person giving order.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
ca, - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 02:24:30 (ZULU)

'lito - a dummy load? 8^o I don't think my impedance matches, you'll get reflection :) rf burns? Niice guy

"On Killing" by LtCol Dave Grossman. Amazing read by a good guy. I had some correspondence with him when it first came out because it addressed things which I had been concerned about, but he was the first with credibility to publish and buck the PC world. This is one of his thank yous in either Killology.com or the new one. He's shifted to studying about Sheep vs Sheepdogs vs Predators among people. LEOs will get a nice fuzzy warm feeling about this one. His stuff is well worth perusing.

Kat Girl

To: Our Sheepdog, Our Cops

Posted by admin under Articles and Abstracts

From: Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

I’ve got something I need to say to you, and all of your magnificent ’sheepdog’ comrades, and it comes from the heart…

Thirty-two years ago, I was a twenty year old buck sergeant in the 82d Airborne Division, spending over half my time on deployment, leaving behind a young wife and two little babies.

Twenty-two years ago I was a company commander in Panama, leaving a wife and three little boys back at home.

Twelve years ago I was wrapping up my military career, deployed every summer and countless weekends and weeks in between, with a wife and teenagers at home.

For the last eleven years I’ve been on the road, almost 300 days a year, training cops and military. I get home one or two nights a week: conjugal visit, clean underwear, and back on the road again.

For my entire adult life I’ve spent more time away from my loved ones than I ever spent with them.

And I knew, all they ever had to do, was to pick up the phone and dial three digits, and someone like you would show up to fight and, yes, even die for my loved ones.

And so I need to say something: Thank you.

Thank you, for walking the mean streets during one of the most violent times in history.

Thank you, for going toward the sound of the guns, when everyone else runs away.

Thank you, for being the front-line of defense in the War on Terror.

Thank you, for going in harm’s way, every day, that others may live.

Thank you, for watching our back and covering our ’six’ when we are overseas.

You should hear those words a lot more often: Thank you.

May God bless you and yours, as you protect and watch over others,

Dave Grossman

Lt Col, USA (ret)

www.WarriorScience.com

Kat Girl
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 02:28:51 (ZULU)

rod...

I will "delicately" answer you.

While you must be an amateur to be a military "MARS" op, MARS ops and stations are not regulated by the FCC or amateur power limits - they are under military rules, and a lot of MARS stations were running 10kw when I was running 8kw (I was MARS "QRP" :)))

Plus, I have never been one to let paper rules interfere with my toys, but I still have the FCC permission papers to own it.

Use a Kitty as a dummy load :))

Fluffy toaster :)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 02:33:02 (ZULU)

Fox reporting that the shitbag Hassan lives and that the Feds have been on to him for the last 6 months due to tracking his fishy internet postings.

Say hello to the next "not a terrorist attack" Malvo. Dammit.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 03:16:43 (ZULU)

Larry: That angst still exists. Whenever that conversation would come up in ethics training, I would dispense with my good'ol boy cover and dominate the converstaion with a scholarly take on the hypotheticals. I'd depict the downside of not allowing enlisted some room in interpretting certain orders while contrasting it with the expectation to follow ROE and the required level of thought needed to interpret those rules in a variety of subtexts; and directly against orders in violation of those same rules...so, once the inevitable topic came up off their inherent stupidity (or some such theme)--I'd be positioned to announce my proud ten year span in the ranks. "Hey, I just dissed you in debate---how dumb is that???" Fun, even if the point was sometimes lost on some.

In the end, Mei Lai was enough to chnage the debate...the endless AARs conclude that some orders must be ignored. While resistance to the very idea is present--that one episode always alters the equation. And the resitsance is a very good thing--because it ensures a more thorough discussion on the subject than we'd otherwise give it. This is not a subject to take lightly.

Joe M
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 03:20:11 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I agree but I guess the discussion is MOOT... Mike Miller says it does not/did not exist...

>>>On following illegal orders. Sorry lads that dont fly for LE or Military. If it does not pass stink test you dont follow it or you get same as person giving order.<<<

Larry

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 03:32:14 (ZULU)

Mike,

First off, the thing about cops going after whomever made a false charge of threats or whatever in a domestic situation would likely never happen. most cops will just say, "fuck it" and remember not to be in too big of a hurry next time she "cries wolf".

Men get completely screwed on these issues; either by cops who are just sick and tired of couples acting like four year olds or by guys that think they're being heroes and every "damsel in distress" is telling the truth, or by the female officers on a power trip.

As for illegal search and seizure, you have a damned short memory. Remember the confiscations during Katrina? Watch pretty much any cop show on TV and you'll see civil rights violations that'll make a real American wanna vomit in the first ten minutes! I'm sick to death of the LEO attitude of "WHY ELSE would someone own a gun" if they're not a drug dealer, gangster, etc. !

On "overturning laws by using the proper channels"... REALLY? Have you not noticed the absolute fucking futility of that process in this day and age? It still works occassionally, but that's on the rare occassion that cops aren't crying "officer safety" so they can further violate the civil rights of people they shouldn't be bothering in the first place and the soccer moms are busy getting their fat asses liposuckeded!

I know it seems like I'm just frothing at the mouth, hate cops, and want anarchy, but nothing could be further from the truth. Cops are a necessary evil. Yes, I said evil. We shouldn't need them, but we do. I like being able to call when cops are needed, but they're generally such a pain in the ass when they show up a day and a half later, you wish you'd have just taken care of things yourself.

There are some genuinely fine cops out there, but it's getting rarer and rarer to find the few who haven't gotten disgusted and quit. A few of my buddies are in that little minority; One is on administrative leave for refusing to railroad some kid that just needed a talking to. How DARE he try to give a kid a little counseling, a little guidance, and a ride home, rather than throwing him in jail on BS soccer mom ordinance charges that would've kept him from graduating!

On illegal orders: Look in your local city ordinances; a lot of them will have an ordinance that requires citizens to do whatever a cop asks of them regardless of rights or legality. That is horseshit.

Travis Morgan
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 03:58:41 (ZULU)

Mike:

Seems like it's your turn in the barrel. :) Remember, you're engaging in a battle of wits with some unarmed opponents. Many of his earlier posts have proven what a paragon of wit and virtue Travis is. Joe just suffers from institutional myopia. Larry, well, if a man follows an order that he KNOWS is illegal or immoral, well.....Nuremburg pretty much laid that old chestnut to rest.

I would never, ever, presume to tell an honorably retired soldierhow fucked up he was when talking about his old MOS. Ever notice that they have no problem doing it to police officers? Guess that's why we were the cops, and they weren't.

I'm just on my first day back in country,and I'm feeling pissy and combative. Carry on, Mike.

Charles S. Hunt
Kabul, , Afghanistan - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 04:40:50 (ZULU)

Lito:

Ah, MARS usage. Hadn't occured to me, makes perfect sense. Excellent usage of "more power". Tim (The Tool Man) Taylor would be proud :-) QRO rocks!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 06:01:57 (ZULU)

Charles, I have known Joe for a long time from here. Good honorable man but we disagree on this issue.

Joe, I am over here doing a cop job. I am attempting to track down the bombers and keep young US Military folks alive. I do not investigate any Military just the terrorists. I learned this trade being a cop.

Travis I gave 26 years of my life to LE. I have had six major surgeries, one gun shot and one knife wound to boot. All doing my job as a cop. I have buried two close friends klled from LE work. Officer safety has always been a big thing to me. Its easy to sit on a pourch and have all the answers but dont get down and run with dogs unless you can hike your leg at least as high as your mouth.

If anyone ever read Star Ship Troopers there was a concept. Those that served had right to vote. Those that did not ahd to sit down and shut up.

Just an opinion of a dumb cop.

By the way the first thing taught in LE is if you follow an illegal order you get prosecuted, but I guess you need to understand english to get that.

Now lastly all this cop bashing, anti governemnt stuff is what is ruining the net. You dont like a law get up from comp and get out and be heard. Get it changed but man pissing and moaning should come with Tampex. No thats an insult to women and my wife does not bitch about much. Actually the women I know dont sit around and do this. Have we become the weaker sex?

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 06:39:16 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt: "Ever notice that they have no problem doing it to police officers?"

Who is "they"?

"Guess that's why we were the cops, and they weren't."

What is "why"? I'm not following your logic.

It has been a while but I remember being taught to disobey illegal orders. That is just what I would have done.

CDC'
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 07:18:02 (ZULU)

CDC: You know....."They". It's the generic term used when I'm too brain-dead to come up with a name.

Charles S. Hunt
Kabul, , Afghanistan - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 07:29:33 (ZULU)

There was a great Far Side cartoon where someone meets another office worker with a big "They" name plate..."So you're the They everyone talks about!"

Kat Girl
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 08:10:57 (ZULU)

"They" & "Them" are MFrs: they'll say anything.

Travis, cool it. Your point of view about how society ought to work is well taken, but you're letting you anger out on the wrong people.

Charles & Mike, if you're arguing with a Numb-skull... Who's the Numb-skull. Everyone here has noted there are good, dedicated men in LE. Getting touchy about the bad ones being called on it does you no credit.

This Hasan douchebag was raised muslim, had made public statements justifying suicide bombing, and was on the FBI's radar for internet postings... and yet, all the media could talk about was PTSD. They wouldn't even mention "Muslim" or Terrorist" despite the fact this peice of filth hasn't seen combat. PTSD from WHAT?!? the terrors of his daily commute?

I'll be the first to admit: this is where the rubber meets the road for me. I have a very hard time having any compassion for these... people (muslims). What none of you have heard, and won't hear, is any local or national Muslins condemning his actions. They'll ( <==See: "They" again! I'm telling you it's a conspiracy) make very carefully worded statements trying to indemnify their groups without actually condemning what he did. But all the talk today will be about guarding against a "Muslim backlash" by rednecks. Q: if your daughter was stuck on the side of the road, who's you want to happen by, a muslim, of a redneck? "nuff said.

SSG Mac
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, RIP my Brothers - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 12:51:05 (ZULU)

>>>I would never, ever, presume to tell an honorably retired soldierhow fucked up he was when talking about his old MOS. Ever notice that they have no problem doing it to police officers? Guess that's why we were the cops, and they weren't.<<<

"Us versus them...?

Larry

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 13:01:31 (ZULU)

People were being divided into groups. One group contains Charles and Mike. Call that group "We". Another group contains Travis. It is "They". I would like to know two things; Are those the only two groups and what are the properties of each group? I'm trying to figure out if I'm being lumped in with Travis, and - if so - who is doing the lumping.

CDC'
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 13:33:18 (ZULU)

No way I ever have had an Us verus them approach. I find Soldiers with same outlook as cops. Some or good, hell most are excellent but yes we do get some bad apples. I wont class any group based on remote out of the ordinary encounters. If I did not have a great out look on Soldiers I would not be over in this shit hole attempting to help them

CDC you know me well enough to know I never consider you anything but a friend.

SSG well put. I will shut my pie hole and listen awhile.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
ca, - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 14:27:57 (ZULU)

The only "US vs THEM" that I'm looking at is the "US who are living our lives, doing our jobs, and abiding by the laws" vs "THEM who are not by indiscriminately shooting/harming/killing soldiers and civilians through whichever blame they carry like race, religion, greed, ignorance and whatnot".

As I've said elsewhere, it is hard not to have any "internment" thoughts (no disrespect to the Japanese) when this is NOT the first time that such an event has happened.

My patience gets GONE when this is ok, acceptable, and required by these (people?).

As you can tell, I'm having a hard time with this crap.

Sean T.
Winnipeg , Mb, Canuckistania - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 15:00:08 (ZULU)

"Lumping"... brings to mind a Bugs Bunny cartoon:

Bugs, "Here's your coffee. One lump or two?"

Lion, "Two"

Bugs, "Ok" WHAM! WHAM! with a mallet

Lion, "Duh, gee, tanks.... " with swirling stars

Duman
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 15:17:17 (ZULU)

my thought for the day:

Try to avoid discussing firearms with people who to take it as an article of faith that guns are inherently evil. Acheiving religious conversions by non-coercive means is a very lengthly process. Instead, try swaying the opinion of those who do not have strongly held convictions on the subject. They are much more numerous, and will take much less effort to acheive progress via logic and reasoned discussion.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 6, 2009, at 21:16:49 (ZULU)

Attention/Peligro: This is not in reference to "Us" or "Them" theme just another piece of news I thought you'd be interested in.

CLICK

I used to think I was pretty good at sets and symbolic logic, but my brain got twisted up by some of the 'us' 'them' statements.

I think occasionally I have been viewed in either place depending on what I've said. I grew up hearing about soldiers in machine gun towers aiming down with their Browning belt-feds on some old guy w/ dementia wanting to pick a flower in the no-mans band next to the barbed wire at my parents' internment camp (Gila Bend, AZ) yet I spent my entire adult life (paid well but often thanklessly) working for bettering our defense/offense/recce/surv posture - I always try to be nice to LE and have had some real gems as friends, but I'd like to be able to say that I've met some honest to gosh mad-dogs w/o being lumped into Them/Us. I suppose it's better those few had a good-guy controller, that's for sure. But that doesn't mean my critical thinking is off.

Best regards to all

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 22:46:01 (ZULU)

Charles: Don't bother reading what I wrote. But do read what you yourself wrote about your sidekicks from the mil. WTF was anyone here supposed to assume about them based on your descriptions? If they had/ have redeeming qualities--you sure as hell never mentioned this. Just sayin...

And, since you do not read what I write here, tune this out too:

Good cops and great cops abound. I have said as much for years. Same for soldiers--though I will take the next step gladly and state--also bad ones; and I was actively involved in culling them from the herd. I never once denied a sh!tbag was a sh!tbag, nor waste my time defending these--I chaptered him gone. Good soldiers, bad soldiers, some fixable, some dumped unceremoneously back on mama's doorstep via a one-way greyhound ticket. Will anyone deny that bad cops exist? Apparently. And that is a shame--because they do, they come from the same society as soldiers--But it would seem that there is an active mentality to circle the cop-wagons regardless of quality--and the bad ones stick around. Bad soldier gone...bad cop defended to the death. Really?

Seems like a great way to create more Travis's to me...just sayin.'

"A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it."

Joe M
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 23:06:26 (ZULU)

WR Moore: Hey! You reminded me of railroad targets--a target I did not see at all after the Q. In the class, it was recommended to use TNT (split the diff between brisance to wreck the rail, and a tad slower to dig a hole and move some wood)--and they were LARGE placements by rule. I forgot I knew that:-))

Someone hit me offline or just critique me right here about WTF I did along the way to get painted into this corner by some. (not you Charles--I wanna figure out what is up between us and your current opinion is known). I'm open to figuring this out, because my intent was to defend good soldiers, allow that bad ones exist; defend good cops, allowing that bad ones exist. If I learn how I blew that--I won't make the same mistake again. Mostly. Ok, I'll try not to.

I'm in the WTF mode right now anyway due to the meds. I read the bags, and ??? appeared over my head:-))

Joe M
Friday, November 6, 2009, at 23:38:08 (ZULU)

"Duck season, Rabbit season, Rabbit season..."

"oh hi Duman" crawling under the pub chairs towards a quieter room while the big boys have their discussion, "long time. Miss your wascaly, wily humor."

RR tracks?! ("Rhay ruh racks?") <Hermione raises her hand waving it around> "Two points off Gryffindor for being show offs"

Kat Girl
Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 00:47:19 (ZULU)

Joe, sit back & enjoy the meds (!) If you've been labeled, or lumped, or pidgeon-holed I missed it too.

All, this is just our semi-annual pie fight here in the bar, and sooner or later it'll calm down. Sometimes somebody'll get thier knickers twisted so bad they just have to leave, and mostly the rest of us end up wishing they hadn't. All ya'll (more than 4 here in East Tenn) have your say, and then get past it. As long as the music is still going, and you don't interupt the card game I can deal. Of course, if somebody smashes the liqour cabinet behind the bar, well then IT'S ON LIKE DONKEY-KONG! :)

The hoops the media have to jump through to ignore the Muslim background and Jihadist motive of Douchebag Al Hasan are becoming sadly comical. I hope they're feeding him a steady diet of pork in the hospital. He needs to meet his 72 Virginians, and start getting his daily beat-down.

Q: have any o'you Bumz played around with Switch Barrel / Switch Capiber at all? I know a lot of guys (relatively) do this with Savage actions, what else? Any take on why the few Eropean switch barrels never took off (besides the obvious pricing issue)? Thanks in advance.

SSG Mac
MOLON LABE, - Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 10:54:10 (ZULU)

Hi Guys!

It's been a long time.

I just want to show you a Norwegian shooting event, rapid fire field target with bolt action rifle. This is called "Stangshooting" named after the inventor of the event Col.Stang. He was minister of defence when Norway and Sweden split up from a union and war was imminent in 1905.

This HQ video from national television is taken from the 2009 finals. Real time scoring on electronic target. Range app. 140m:

http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/521030

6 min into the video show John O. Ågotnes 2008 vinning final.

24:13 into the video shows his 2009 final wich gave him 2. place.

In 2009 Rinde won with a G3. A G3 shooter has not won this event for many years. Rinde's final at 31:18. Look at his eyes. Not much flincing there.

I've posted this on Snipershide and some of you might have seen the video there.

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 12:41:36 (ZULU)

Torf; Good to hear from you. I have thought about you many times and wondered where you went. Wonderful video from a great country and great people. Glad to see shooting is still alive and well as always.

Brogers
Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 15:01:38 (ZULU)

Torf:

I've looked at some of the prior videos, great stuff! I just wish we had the same level of public enthusiasm for rifle competitions in Canada or the US. I think the real-time electronic targetry has a lot to do with it. Do you have any observations or thought on what the public turnouts for your national matches were *before* the advent of realtime electronic targetry?

I would like to see the clubs invest in such targetry systems in Canada and the US. It would make such an enormous difference in the time expended to run a match and the spectator appeal of longer-range rifle matches.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 15:06:44 (ZULU)

The oldest manual I have is: "The Professional Papers of the Corps of Engineers, U.S. Army, No. 29". Covers field fortifications, demolition,use of draft/pack animals and much more. I've actually used the part of the instructions for trimming horse hoofs. Draft animals aren't shod like mounts, but some stuff is universal.

I kinda hate to dip a toe into the waters, but Travis, you're being excessively negative. It isn't up to the cops to decide to bring charges for false reports, that's the prosecutors. Also, many states have laws requiring citizens to assist LEOs if requested. Note the terminology: ASSIST. Have no doubt whatsoever that people exist who don't grasp the nuance, but that was never the intent of the law. I've seen people refuse to assist at accidents, never known of any to be prosecuted.

JoeM-my sympathies, never had your problem but have known those who have. Enjoy your meds.

WR Moore
Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 17:14:04 (ZULU)

I made a long post that got lost somewhere and probably for the better. In the long view it said that it greatly saddens me that this discussion we're in has to exist among friends who basically know both sides of the issue so well. This may be place for an intellegent look/ conversation but it's like two different sides of a football field. I know guys who will put the whup ass on you for sympathizing with the wrong football team. It's pointless because it has no point other than human beings are both good and bad and sometimes they can be both at the same time. Our guys are better than you guys is a silly game to play.

Brogers
Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 18:32:56 (ZULU)

CLICK ;)

I really think everyone here has the same interests at heart. The internet; blogs, email, postings...uses only the interpersonal communication channel of writing, no facial cues etc (which is why smileys). Nearly impossible to write something unambiguous. Additionally, we're all human with things which are rather close to our egos/emotions.

Travis is probably out there feeling misunderstood.

JoeM: "Bummer of a birthmark dude" <- from Far Side

Mike/Chuck: The whole world doesn't hate you guys.

Me - I'm going to stay under the chairs for a bit longer 'till the all-clear siren says to come out.

Except for one thing.

At the risk of tapping glycerol-trinitrate w/ microbubbles...who the heck comes up with "Cop Killer Bullets?!" News? Mayors/Chiefs? Like the KTW? Oh and the news showed an animation of a shooter w/ two 1911s

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
LA, CA, USA - Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 20:34:38 (ZULU)

On the switch barrel thing,I've recently started building bolt rifles and that idea wouldn't really work with the barrel install techniques that I've been taught. At least not without having the action right there to measure off of when I chamber the barrel. I've heard guys talk about calling their gunsmith to order another barrel because he saved the measurements to the bolt face from the lug. I wouldn't be comfortable doing it that way.

I chuck it up in the lathe and get it spinning fairly straight to start. Then I insert a 12" long caliber specific rod into the chamber end. I put a 10 thou run out guage on that rod right at the barrel and another at the end of the rod 6" away. Then I adjust both the muzzle and chamber ends to get that rod spinning perfectly straight. Now the first 6" of the chamber end is spinning perfectly straight to the reamer. Once this is done if you look at the muzzle end you will see it wobbling clearly with the naked eye. That is because the center line of the bore is not perfectly straight and it's why we make sure the chamber end IS straight. We've seen this on all brands of custom barrels that we've used and there have been many.

Part of our process of threading and chambering involves clocking that high point in the muzzle wobble up at the 12:00 position. I do a test fit by screwing the action on to the barrel to see where the high point winds up. The location of the shoulder that presses against the recoil lug determines the location of that high point. I test it to see where it is and cut the shoulder back so that the action screws on with the high point index mark at about the 12:30 mark on the action. That way when it is tightened on the high point will be right at 12:00.

That is the way I was taught and it's the way I do it now. I know of some other big name smiths that do it that way including Gordy Gritters who trained the guy that trained me. I don't think I would want to build someone a switch barrel without having the action there when I chambered it because it would bug me to not have that part done right. I could measure that distance from the shoulder but I wouldn't trust that method.

I'm still a rookie at rifle building so I'd be interested in hearing thoughts or opinions from JR and any other rifle builders reading this.

MarcS
South S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, November 7, 2009, at 21:54:24 (ZULU)

Marc: you could have the gift of being a natural precision barrel/rifle/gunsmithing craftsman or artisan as well as being a competitor of reknown. Is that something to dream about or what? How many of us outside of high school have the optimism of that kind of future?! Wonderful and makes me happy 4 U!

Kat Girl
SP, CA, USA - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 10:00:01 (ZULU)

CDC

Package arrived yesterday.

Gary Kaney
N.W., IL, - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 12:08:56 (ZULU)

Torf...

Good to see you - the video did not play on my computer??

I still have picture of your "seester", and she still makes me breath funny :))

Kat Lady...

I think it was Jerry Rivers - aka "Never let facts get in the way of a sensational story" Geraldo Rivera... and that famous bimbo "Baba Wawa" (Barbara Waters) that did the first Cop Killer Bullets story on ABC news - in those days, they were a sensational "team" that had a faux news program that broke lame news stories... mostly leaving out important facts... like that the story actually led to MORE cops being killed with regular bullets, because Baba and Geraldo were the first people to tell the public that police were wearing bullet resistant vests (previously unknown), and BG's started aiming for head shots, and getting much bigger guns.

Fluffy bonker.

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 16:11:42 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney: The cheekwewlder is lined with a material that was specced by Crystler for insulating power windows. It was recommended to me by Kydex. Its wear propertes sre supposed to be miraculous. It is edged in Plasti-Dip which wes also recommended by an engineer at Kydex.

I'm going to write a disclaimer that is not directed at anyone in particular.

The user still needs to be careful to how he installs and removes it. You pick up sand in the field. Sand is abrasive. If someone is a big "pride in ownership" "gun owner" rather than a user-shooter, he may want to use something else. A guy needs to engage his brain. The cheekwelder isn't foolproof, which is fine. Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently energetic and determined fool. They are invited to choose another brand and be someone else's headache. The cheekwelder is for competent people who take rifles to the field and shoot them.

CDC'
Stamp out gun neglect - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 16:25:42 (ZULU)

OK folks for those of you that did not get a e-mail from me I'm changing internet providers so my e-mail address is changing. the new address is: sargern at swwmail.net ...you know how to make it right! The old address will remain good for a couple of weeks!

Thanks gang!

Sarge

Ken H. your e-mail bounced obviously I don't have the right one so please e-mail me the correct one!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 19:29:36 (ZULU)

A large portion of military and police are in tbe profession because that is "who they are". So when one starts making generalities that are derrogatory, it's very offensive. I'm not saying that we will see eye-to-eye about everything, but we don't have to carry a grudge against a brother for offenses of others.

There are exceptional people and scum in every field. I wouldn't like someone to make a generality about my fellow shooters. Everyone needs to step back and see ourselves as Americans first. We are all brothers (with differences).

This "pub" is for information to be exchanged by shooters. It's isn't supposed to be offensive to one group or another.

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 21:03:49 (ZULU)

btw it's getting too dang close to me. Ft Hood is around the corner. If this guy was supposed to be going over, what do our boys have with them who are time bombs as well?

I believe that we should get out of Afghanistan commpletely and use a test bomb of the double atom kind.

If we just don't react to this crap, we aren't sending a message that it must stop.

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 21:36:35 (ZULU)

CDC

I'll put her to the test next weekend. My son is coming down, so it's a good time to get out the HBV's (4) and burn up some powder.

Gary Kaney
N, ILC, - Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 22:24:37 (ZULU)

'lito: Thank you! I remember now. That's how the media/mayors/chiefs-who-want-to-be-mayor are spinning the 5.7 FN Herstal Tac. Oh nice. That will drive up prices. If you ever get on the air with Rivera, he hates being called Revolvo (I heard an interview with a really dumb guy, kept calling him that, drove Geraldo crazy)

Storm: and then add a delicious center of Li Deuteride and you get showers of stuff that go through lots of dirt and armor and caves.

Kat Girl
Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 22:42:23 (ZULU)

Storm,

After that, then what?

Duman
Sunday, November 8, 2009, at 22:43:14 (ZULU)

Damn cops ...

Just stirring the pot.

Hee hee

brian k. sain
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 01:04:08 (ZULU)

Just in case there are WMD's hidden somewhere`a purge might be a good idea.

Duman; then we sell tickets to the infidels to look at the hole.

Brogers
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 01:13:28 (ZULU)

Duman & BillR - remember the Far Side cartoon with the aliens on the moon looking at all the nudets on the earth going, "Ohhh, Aahhh, ooooh!" Duman - Seriously, it's sad - 'Stan was a moderate Muslim country before the Soviets jumped in. Hmm, radioactive opium for everyone? Big sale on "Glowing Acres?"

Brian - That was funny. No wonder your prefix is what it is! That's like tossing an M-80 in the trashcan during recess.

If I get the money, I'll have a couple of domains: Them.org and Us.org and keep changing the theme! ;)

Kat Girl

p.s. since Brian can do it. Purely hypothetically, are MP's disliked randomly more than or equal to 2X either military or LE? Now I'm just talking when they're walking down the street, not jumping in someone's par-thay.

CO to his bunch, "Okay, Listen up! You bird brains all have to quit GLARING at the MPs, it's making them really nervous. Their self-esteem is getting poor and they're eyes are always puffy! We cannot have that!" <- our boss at JPL asked all of us to quit glaring at the QC guys in the hallways because they were getting jumpy!

Kat Girl
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 01:38:07 (ZULU)

Storm: I've been here about 10 years. About half of these guys were here before me. We don't need to be told what we can write.

CDC'
Stamp out gun neglect - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 01:58:07 (ZULU)

Kat, the addition is appreciated. The comment about the trashcan is priceless!!

Exactly, Brogers. Then what to do with all of the money? Decisions, decisions.

Duman, I don't have the answers, but not doing anything isn't correct. It's showing that we will take anything they keep throwing and there's no consequences.

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 02:17:34 (ZULU)

Heheh, now that was funny:-)) Everyone's a damned pronoun 'cept you, me and our mommas. Us.org. bawhahwahw...but not that guy over there---he's them.org...

BKS: Quit loafin' around and posting; get back to work and make us some more bullits, dambit.

I'm thinking Christ will arrive before the 77s, 175s and varget. "Pardon me, my savior, but could you do that fish trick for these here Magazines?" Holy ever clips for the faithful. Much betterer than any old holy hand grenade:-)) Unless rabbits enter the equation...

"Follow only if ye be men of valour, for the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no man yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of full fifty men lie strewn about its lair. So, brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth."

(where? behind the rabbit?)

"I *warned* you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you *knew*, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little *bunny*, isn't it?"

Joe M
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 02:45:37 (ZULU)

Storm...

>"This "pub" is for information to be exchanged by shooters. It's isn't supposed to be offensive to one group or another. "<

I have been here since Moses came down the mountain, and I never read the "rules" you state... and you have been here, what?, 6 or 8 weeks and you found them.

WOW, you are good.

Could you please tell me where those "PC" rules are written... somehow, I can't find them.

I love it when a newbee tells us "What it is, what it is"!!

Why is it that girls always expect guys to "act nice" when they are around...??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 02:54:11 (ZULU)

Storm,

>>This "pub" is for information to be exchanged by shooters. It's isn't supposed to be offensive to one group or another.

Really? I guess I've been doing it wrong..

later

JR
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 03:02:22 (ZULU)

I will state for the record that NO ONE hates a shitty or dirty cop more ...

... than a good and honest ... cop.

Integrity and professionalism are all we have.

If you have neither, then you may wear the badge; but you are really just pissing on the rest of us.

And that's all I have to say about that.

brian k. sain
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 03:11:15 (ZULU)

OK just a reminder...how many here know Dave Reed? And to add to that how many have actually spoken with him? This will date ME and a VERY few others!

OK lets get back to shooting subjects!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 03:31:18 (ZULU)

Did I take offense at some things sad against cops. You bet I did. When anyone condems a whole group based on very few incidents I find it wrong. Its similar to what the Media did to Abu G. Prison. Look into that case and see just how few where actually involved? Look at what the media did to one PD because of one accidental shooting. The cop was dead wrong in tis case but you dont condem a whole PD, with millons of suspct contacts, because of one numb nuts who screwed up. It would be like saying all drivers suck because of the number of accidents everyday (Which has higher precentage than bad cops or soldiers per group)

Now I work under the rule once told me by a good man "Good men can disagre and still be friends" I hope others do also. Now that does not include personal attacks and I dont believe that should be in this forum. Storm just pointed that out and it has been a way business was conducted here so everyone neds to check themselves.

I think I have posted here as long as most.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 03:59:20 (ZULU)

Yes, sir, Sarge.

CDC: Yo, man. I didn't mean to step on toes. I enjoy shooting. I particularly enjoy targets between 500-900 yds. I'm honored when I hear good tips and ideas from knowledgeable people.

Speaking of which, there was discussion at BW about the pros and cons of AR-15 Vertical Fore-Grips. It doesn't feel comfortable to me, but if someone can tell me a good reason to use it, I will get used to it.

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 04:07:16 (ZULU)

Mike, thank you. Watch your six, man.

Storm
SA, TX, USA - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 04:16:06 (ZULU)

Undude: I agree with you 100%. My post on the Canadian registry was aimed at the politicians that foist such crap on all of us. That you would come to my home vigilent and wary is natural. The quote that kicked it off implied a preconceived notion of absolute danger--which I commented on as increasing the chance for misunderstandings. But how that got turned to whatver, I have no idea...Travis was painting with a broad brush, not I. And Charles retaliated by citing examples from his work. It all went to hell from there, eh?

Well, this ain't the first time we've had this conversation:-) FWIW, my "thank you" for doing what you fine folks in LE do while I was overseas---keeping the home front safe where my children were (in my absense)--was sincere. If anyone doubted it, I'll work on my wording next time. I know you did not, so I will thank you again, for hearing me back then.

And now GOA tells me that the BATMEN created one here despite the law as written....ughhhh. So many infringements, so little time.

Travis: If all you ever meet is "bad cops"---it could be that adage about the "whole world is crazy, not me" thing at work. When you get pulled over, the guy at the window is doing his job, not targeting you because you are ugly. If this inconveniences you, slow the duck fown and replace the bulbs in your taillights. If you're convinced about your assertions, go buy a LUX microcam and glue it to your forehead. Prove it. You may eventually find your bad cop, but you'll likely get bored with it before he shows up. That, or the vid you shoot will be used as evidence against you. Heheh. My money's on the evidence. I imagine you can't help yourself, based solely on the attitude you present here. Instead of "WTF are you harrasing me for?" try "Yes, sir?" Things may go wildly different from that point forward for ya...heheh.

Joe M
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 04:29:07 (ZULU)

Storm: I did not like them either, at first. But in CQB engagements, it grew on me fast. My carbine now sports one, and I couldn't imagine handling that little riffle without it. The control it provides is best realized in body armor all coated with mags, handgun, frags and comms. Once I got used to it, my timed drills picked up as did my groups. Doubletaps were tight, and that slight high-right second went extinct. I resisted the vertical grip...now I forget why. At first, the vertical grip felt awkward...now traditional off-hand feels awkward.

Given all that, I still prefer bipods or bags:-))

Martial arts: I can now kick above my mellon! And I can touch my toes--something I never could do even when I was young. The girls have really taken to this, and we'll be testing the 11th Kup this week. This "family time" thing has surpassed all expectations. I'd recommend it to anyone....find a good blended art and dive in, and drag the significant other along!

Joe M
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 04:52:16 (ZULU)

Anyone who needs a loud laugh please CLICK.

'lito: Whaat, You saw the Ten Condiments being brought down?

JoeM: Nice melons (To include everyone here who has melons. One mustn't let anyone go unappreciated). I forgot YoMama.org and guys_with_eye_holes_in_newspapers.org

If I tried kicking high these days, I would rotate mid air backwards...but that itself might be disarming and unexpected. "I meant to do that!"

CDC' and Storm: I'm sorry none of what you say is uses the accepted style! "We are nhot amused." j/k j/k j/k

Storm: M-80s in trashcans - Were you at my Jr. High?

"Lord, please grant me the wisdom to set up my Dillon 650 and find worthy components and Varget to share with my somewhat eccentric brethern and sistern. Amen"

Lady of Nih'
Village of Idiots, State: Mud in Face and Kick in Pants, Country: Of Upper Class Twits and Cheese Shops sans Cheese - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 06:11:43 (ZULU)

JoeM,

".....go buy a LUX microcam and glue it to your forehead. "

Hey, that's a great idea for when I'm cycling. Quite a few knuckle-heads feel it's their duty to harrass people on bicycles.

Got a link to good prices ?

duman
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 11:40:12 (ZULU)

Kat Lady...

>"'lito: Whaat, You saw the Ten Condiments being brought down?"<

No, not THAT Moses, you silly person...

... Frankie Moses from Redhook Brooklyn. He came down the mountian on his ass cuz he lost his left ski.

:))

Fluffy Eliminator

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 13:49:53 (ZULU)

Joe and others the problem with the net is you can seldom read what a person exactly means by the written word alone. I seldom have conflicts with shooters when we talk face to face because its easily understood then.

Storm, pray for the young men and women here. They are sharp tip of the spear. I am doing what I know and love here to keep them safe.

Mike/Undude

mike miller
ca, - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 14:25:31 (ZULU)

Pablo; It looks like you are in a semi-lurk mode. Given the signal to noise ratio, that's understandable.

BKS: I'll hit you offline.

Are you out there Bravo? Where'd you go Son?

CDC'
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 14:25:57 (ZULU)

Joe, which vertical grip are you using? I got stubby little fingers & big palms. Mom said that's cause i was always.... err forget it, which grip ya using?

SSG Mac
MOLON LABE, - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 14:48:42 (ZULU)

"Why is it that girls always expect guys to "act nice" when they are around...??"

Ladies, this is actually fawning affection.... curmudgeon style. This pub is on the bad side of the tracks and anything short of bloodletting is just good natured funnin'.

Joe - If you are going to kick above the waist in a real fight, you better be fast as hell... you are off balance and vulnerable during and immediately after.

medicjim
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 15:03:10 (ZULU)

CDC...

Semi-Lurk?

Yeah, I guess so. I have a lot on my mind these days. I'm in the process of folding my 35 year old medical consulting business - I may take one more client for a year or so, but that's IT!

I have an application in with one of the better known manufactures of handloading equipment, but with the job market as it is... ??

Plus I am packing up tons of loading stuff and other equipment for a pending move (same town, different house), and I'm now in the place where I need to use stuff I have packed - it sucks.

And I lot of projects have been put on hold for 6 or 8 months until I get resettled and all the equipment is back up and running... damn, I never got all my stuff unpacked here :(((

I had a company that specialized in scientific motion pictures and photographs some time back - I designed Schlieren optical systems and Shadow graph systems for ballistic studies, and I did high speed films (8,000 frames per second) and high speed photographs (3/10s of a millionth of a second) for ballistic studies. It was really cool, but video was moving in and I couldn't compete price wise (film is EXPENSIVE to shoot), and the quality of early video cams sucked and editing was primitive, so I folded it in the 80's and put my equipment in boxes. Now I'm selling it off now, (getting pennys on the dollars).

I have had a few PhD digital cameras (Push Here Dummy) and I liked the ease of putting the photos on a computer and doing Photoshop.

I recently bought a really good digital camera on eBay to photograph the stuff so I can sell it on eBay, and I got to tell you, when the user manual is 192 pages of technical foo-foo, you know that cameras have changed a LOT! ("This is not your father's Nikon") :(((

8 years ago I bought a high end Sony "Hi8" camera, and that was really good, and computer video editing is so cool - in a half an hour, I can do enough special effects on a video, that if done in film would have cost $40,000 in 1980 dollars, just for the test print. In video, I see it right away, if I don't like it, just erase it and start all over again.

I have a video project from a guy in Virginia to edit as a sample, and I'll get to that after I move.

So I think I am going backwards so to speak - I am looking to get back into firearms work full time, writing some books on shooting and loading stuff and start setting up some Schlieren optical systems and Shadow graph systems and start loving my work again.

So that's why I have not been posting much.

Meow Man :)))

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 15:35:19 (ZULU)

Guys,

For those that have been watching my life while eating a big bowl of popcorn... I have a bigger truck and a smaller woman now. Hopefully, I'll have a new job today; good thing, since my horse is about to be evicted!

On the "new" truck: It's an '88 Ford F-250 with a 7.3 (pre-powerstroke) that the original owner put a Banks turbo on. Dual fuel tanks, 5 speed (need at LEAST one more highway gear!) and what appears to be a brand new B&W gooseneck ball. I just wish it were 4WD, but for $1,500, I'm not gonna bitch! I traded an '01 Exploder straight across for it and never skipped a beat!

My question is, what all kinda issues are you guys aware of with these trucks? Any tips/ winter prep stuff, etc.? Also, thoughts on the fuel stabiliser they sell at Wally word? Which oil would be the best?

Joe,

You're starting to sound like Chuckie; just because I don't agree, I MUST be batshit crazy and hate all cops.... Incidentally, if you had actually READ my posts, you would have noted that I have cop friends. They're disgusted with the kinda people I'm talking about too.

Typically, when dealing with an officer, I'm polite, courteous,and respectful. If not just for good manners, for efficiency. Still, I tend to encounter Mr. Policeman/Officer Hyde tpes. Typically, it's some horse's ass that's apparently been jerking off whle watching those shows on the DEA or U.S. Marshall's service. He'll pull me over for whatever, and think it's his RIGHT to search me, and I'm being a dick by not giving him permission.

Mind you, this kinda thing happens pretty rarely, as I hardly ever get pulled over, but it's happened often enough to be a PITA.

Well, I'm probably rambling a bit right now, as my head's full of snot and I'm foggy as hell.

Travis Morgan
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 15:58:18 (ZULU)

CDC - you scaled up enough with your cheekwelder to start taking orders outside the DR community?

medicjim
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 16:39:15 (ZULU)

cross-post, worthy of repeating

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2009/11/safe-at-home.html

Tamara K. writes:

"Friday, November 06, 2009

Safe at home...

The more I think about it, the more pissed off I get at the "this is our home" comment from the completely unsat and hopefully about-to-fall-on-his-sword General Cone.

Sure, General, your troops were "safe at home"... in a war with no fronts.

They were every bit as safe at home as the crews of the USS Cole or the battleship Arizona. Safe at home like the Marines in their barracks in Beirut.

An army at war does not have the luxury of "safe at home". Do you think the bomber crews of the Mighty Eighth landed in southern England after pasting the hell out of the Nazis and called out "Olly olly oxen free! We're safe at home now; we'll be putting on our slippers and lighting a pipe. No fair bombing us 'til tomorrow, Adolf!" or do you think they made sure that there were plenty of slit trenches, anti-aircraft guns, and armed guards on the base?

Do our people need to wear full battle rattle to go to the infirmary? No, but the idea that our highly trained all-volunteer army should walk around in condition white with empty holsters and bull's-eyes taped to their backs during a war and right in the middle of what is, to be honest, quite a tempting target is delusional at best and a grave insult to our troops at worst.

General Cone, a professional soldier should be mortified to have accidentally let slip that line about being unarmed at home. You are absolutely responsible for everything that happens in your command. Act like it."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 16:40:24 (ZULU)

medicjim: We're scalable. Have you got something in mind?

CDC'
Stanp out gun neglect - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 16:44:33 (ZULU)

CDC - bwahahaha

brace, brace, brace!

"Safe at home"

The first official victims of the war on terror were civilians, safe at home. The law requires them to be condition white, completely dependant on government and the military for protection from foreign terrorists.

medicjim
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 17:46:15 (ZULU)

CDC- Have you considered contacting Brownell's or other distributors? If you could make that happen you'll probably sell plenty of them. Maybe grow it into something that is eventually manufactured by some other entity. You'll never make much money off of us bumz :-)

MarcS
South S.F. Bay area, CA, - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 19:16:55 (ZULU)

Medicjim: It is a stretching technique; wouldn't want to fight with it:-)) But for stretching--whoa, this routine works fast.

Aside from the now obvious vulnerability, SSG Mac and I kicked around the need to arm soldiers as a matter of course in the duty day. The sheer number of NDs and the foolish response by the commands to those NDs made this idea worth pursuing alone.

Now, the problem appears to be "MDs." heheh.

I had a pile of KAC plainjane vertical grips that worked fine, but I am now using a tango down one with removable side panels that "fit" my paddle switches.

Joe M
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 19:40:02 (ZULU)

My local paper had the headline "Hero Cops Keep Killings to a Minimum"

WTF? Since when is 13 dead a minimum?

Not once do they ask why nobody in the immediate vicinity was armed. This is a military base afterall. It is also America afterall. We are supposed to be a well armed society with the right to keep and bear arms. We have devolved to the point where one of the places where there are the FEWEST folks walking around armed is a MILITARY post!

Anyone ever notice that the only places where there are mass gun shootings are also “gun free zones”?

It is a complete travesty that our soldiers are disarmed personally and while on duty in CONUS. Personal disarming… our military leaders are in effect stripping the soldier of his rights to defend himself by banning the carriage of loaded personal weapons on post. Military posts are cities. They are hometowns. They are communities where those who choose to live there are subject to the rules set forth by commanders. These commanders would be wise to realize that these posts are not immune to the ails of other cities. There is still crime, there is still violence, there are still innocent victims. Denying these Americans the right to defend themselves is not justified by any safety concern regarding negligent discharges any more in this environment than it is in any other environment.

Disarming soldiers in the course of their duties is a gross misjudgment from a force protection standpoint. Military bases and the personnel who work there, are targets. 9.11 proved that the two types of targets most attractive to these folks are military and economic centers. If I were President, I’d fire the commander for failing to realize this fact. Soldiers should be armed now if ever.

When was the last mass shooting at a gun show or NRA convention?

LTChip
Helena, MT, - Monday, November 9, 2009, at 23:33:49 (ZULU)

CLICK - The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

also, not-noise, Shooting w/o wind in the Houston Warehouse - fun reading:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

When it starts getting hot around here (Hey, Mike - I'm probably crazy enough to join you if I could and I don't think there's a person here who thinks all cops are killer rabbits!) I've got an incredible urge to blow chaff and drop funny-flares when friends are turning red while discussing like gentlefolk...so my apologies for what we used to call signal grass!

Travis: Batshit crazy is oookay. I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise! :)

'lito: You even have a Schliern (sp?) set up??!! Thank you for the update, I knew you were busy.

btw I was thinking of using a Xe flashlamp with a low C low L setup and a Picatinny switch to try and photograph bullets on impact once, but never got around to it.

also, one of my attorney friends sent this to me, an article from Wired re: 'Cop Killer FNs' information from that wacky silly group, the Brady Bunch...

---

Gun Girl,

You can see the writing on the wall on this one. "Danger Room". Shades of Faux News.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/11/what-exactly-is-a-cop-killer-gun/

William Eckert

---

Noise Girl
Monday, November 9, 2009, at 23:39:13 (ZULU)

We had a couple of guys poaching deer in our front yard saturday night. They didn't get away with it ; ) Our local PD was fast courteous, and thorough.

We (the roster)usually have hairballs in July and August, whats the deal? Nobody hunting?

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 00:36:55 (ZULU)

Kat Girl:

If you want to photograph bullet impacts, why not just use a "normal" photo flash with an audio trigger?

You can vary the trigger delay by varying the distance between the microphone and the impact point (or muzzle).

A good photo flash can be configured for durations as short as 50 microseconds. (example - Oly FL-50)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 01:06:03 (ZULU)

rod...

The Oly strobes will only go down to 250 microseconds (1/4,000'th of a sec)... not fast enuff for bullets.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 02:31:24 (ZULU)

Oh, ah. Ummm. I just sit and learn when the electro-optical crowd starts talking.

CDC: Niiiice. Freakin fits the riffles great. Best of all, it freakin fits my face great. I'll up optic that stealth and wring er out...It just got "cool." Or, cooler---it always was kinda cool.

LtChip: At Bragg, I had a NC concealed carry permit. Except it was no good on Ft Bragg proper, and the rules for transporting firearms were onerous and impossible to follow as they changed daily. I could never get my arms around that one. I am entrusted with $200 million in helicopters, expected to be a crack shot as I lead by example, entrusted with the lives of those assigned to my command...entrusted with budgets that ran ultimately into the billions, entrusted to take lives with all that the armed forces can bring to bear...entrusted to exit paratroopers safely...and so much more...yet, they did not want, could not fathom, would not allow that I would carry a pistol while on duty.

A real head scratcher. The ONLY way it would make sense is for some nug of a general to also order that no member can get the civie permit in the first place. At least that stupidity would be consistent:-)) Oh, and sell all those unecessary arms rooms off....

Rant rant rant...I'll stop here.

Joe M
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 02:51:56 (ZULU)

'lito, that's what I understood too! I don't want to go nerdette right now -brain hurt. Frankie Moses. Love it. Bet you've got stuff labeled EG&G and Maxwell sitting around too?

CLICK to see that handgun can be notebook worthy too. btw, that night for fun (and evil humor) I shot a PPC 1st w/ my P229 then again with my Benelli (no muzzle brake) 22rnds 12x00Buck + 4 slugs (1 at 15 and 3 at 25 offhand). I may have seen double, but you can really followthrough with that basketball sized muzzle flash! Come to think of it, I bet my cheek welded at a different spot when I went to low ready to hit the switch to bring the B-27 from 25 to 15 yds. Wow, did I give a lot of my friends a flinch that night!

"I jus' wants ta' tell you guysh - I'd trust any one of you behind me wifhth a C, a CCW...I lovesh ya all..."

I wish I could get an FN Herstal before some Bozo makes THEM illegal here too but alas... $$$

Hey, darn it. I think my Cable Box lost The Travis channel! ;) j/k j/k

Kat Girl

Kat Girl
Ellay, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 04:53:11 (ZULU)

Joe: Glad you like them. Can I quote you on that?

Medicjim: Is there something I should know.

Marc S: In S.C.'s probable case, if it were to be my only customer, we would lose about $10,000. I'm doing a radio interview tomorrow.

CDC'
Stamp out gun neglect - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 04:53:34 (ZULU)

Lito:

The FL-50 english "Instructions" manual for the FL-50 claims otherwise. I checked it really carefully.

http://www.olympus.co.jp/en/support/imsg/digicamera/download/manual/accessories/man_fl50_e.pdf - 9.18MBy

Page 68 Main Specifications

"Flash emission Period: Approx. 1/20000 to 1/500 sec. (Variable according to the light intensity, except in FP emission.)"

1/20000 second = 50 microseconds.

The FL-50 has variable power level from 1:1 to 1:128 intensity. It is controllable both by the programmable control panel and closed loop thru the TTL flash handshake. My understanding is that the power level is varied by changing the flash duration. 1/128 of the max duration 1/500 second is 1/64000 of a second, which is even shorter than the 1/20000 claimed, so that seems possible.

Now, if you want to say they are over-optimistic in their spec sheet, I could believe that possibility.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 05:04:36 (ZULU)

Joe:

suggest editing your post to change the apparent typos.

"untrusted" => "entrusted". I'm pretty sure that is what you were intending to say.

Great statement, btw

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 05:14:42 (ZULU)

Rod: Tanks. Better typing thru chemistry? Screw this, I'd rather deal with the pain than be stupid:-)) As for the "U"---it ain't even close to the "e" on the keyboard. Zombietypists should not be allowed an internet connection:-))

CDC: I'll give ya a review that you can quote. Imortalized for freakin' sayin' freakin? Naw thanks. I can do better for you, and your handiwork deserves no less than my reasoned and well thought praise. Seriously.

Joe M
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 05:37:08 (ZULU)

Travis- International/Navistar made that engine. Parts will be available from the local dealer much cheaper than from Foooord. (Glow plugs are about half price!) You can also get the factory maintenance manuals from them. You may have an extended wait on them, the printing runs aren't that big, but they're worth the money.

Keep at least one fuel filter in the cab in case of emergency (bad fuel), Fleetguard and Wix filters are good. The Extender version of the Fleetguard stretches oil changes by about 50%-check your manual.

I run Shell Rotella T 15W-40 in all my diesels. Tractor Supply has had the best prices in 5 gallon pails (roughly 12-14 qts per change). Whatever oil you use, make sure it's diesel specification oil. Had a acquaintance that didn't bother and lunched his engine with about 7K miles on it.

Fuel additives. The low and ultra low diesel has a greater need for anti-gel additives than the old style. Don't depend upon the "winter blends" that the local fuel suppliers claim they have. I've used whats now CRC Fuel Therapy in arctic conditions and it keeps the injectors clean and the fuel flowing. Figure 1 oz/4 gallons of fuel for most usage. I run that mix year round. Lucas fuel treatment also cleans injectors and does indeed lower exhaust gas temps, no anti-gel properties though. Stabilizer??????

If there isn't an engine block heater, get one. If you find you need it to start up above zero, change your glow plugs.

If you're gonna pull weight with that truck, I'd strongly suggest you add an engine exhaust gas temperature gauge. Especially since that engine didn't originally have a turbo-melting pistons is baaaad. I don't have my tech manual in front of me, but the Powerstroke limit was around 1400 degrees measured 4 inches in front of the turbo. I mounted behined the turbo and knocked a couple of hundred degrees off the allowable temperature and haven't blown the engine yet. A manifold boost gauge is also nice, you can use it to stretch fuel mileage.

WR Moore
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 12:19:30 (ZULU)

Since you all liked the ultra high speed bullet impacts and found them relaxing. Here's one. Castle Bravo - 15MT, our largest air burst. Thermonuclear and dry using Lithium Deuteride. Kind of pretty, but it caused lots of tragedy too. I knew a navy guy who was so irradiated that it was amazing he only lost his hair. The scientists who were almost jaded by all the Fission bursts said this was hair raising because unlike the Fission implosion bursts, this was truly like a star. Waves and Waves of unending heat.

Once you see this, go to my Tsar Soviet one. 50MT 3 stage. They actually scaled it down from 100MT by replacing the Uranium tamper. That one actually blew atmosphere out into space and it went to the air-force limit of atmosphere. Any bigger would just blow more atmosphere off so it would be a waste.

Shock wave went three times around the earth. Those crazy Russians. (yield)^2/3 which is why MIRV and CBU, but the Tsar would be able to vaporize any big city. Thermal burns so far away it's hard to grasp.

In a way, it's too bad that that one physics nuclear solution of a big test of actually causing the fusion of Oxygen didn't happen. Then we wouldn't be worrying about any Yee-Had.

I wouldn't want to see one of these dropped in Afghanistan. Now if they could make a Neutron bomb which selectively fry testes and amygdalae, I bet the women would make a moderate country fast. No, I'm hardly a man hater. It's just that it used to be a moderate country.

Cheap fuel. If we blew one in the ice in the Arctic, we'd have so much fusionable material, we'd have energy forever.

Oh, if your interested, I edited a video of the Russian version of our big flashbang. I took a section out and slowed it down, so you can see the cloud ignite and ended the cut when the overpressure got to the camera - those nutty Russians keeping up with the Joneses again. They claim it's not to worry about, just for urban control 8^o

Kat Girl
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 12:30:59 (ZULU)

"what happened at Fort Hood was a tragedy, but I believe it would be an even greater tragedy if our diversity becomes a casualty here."

General George Casey you left your stones at your last maneuver unit. There I said it in print in a public forum: you've got an open & shut case. Take me to court you little weasel.

If he or any of the rest of the General Officer corps had any stones, somebody there would have been armed. If the field grade officers in his chain of Command had any stones Douchebag Al Hasan wouldn't have been there.

AAAARRRGHGGGH! I'M SICK OF THESE LIMP-WRISTED, POLITICALLY SAVVY, DOUCHEBAGS GETTING BETTER MEN KILLED SO THEY WON'T LOOK BAD!

I spent 10 of my 15 years in service carrying illegaly because otherwise men under my command would have been defenseless. I may have been just a dumb-assed NCO, but I risked the end of my career, fines, and probable imprisonment for what I knew to be right, despite the fact that it was against the rules.

I was nearly told to patrol a F**KING WAR ZONE with an unloaded weapon so this same officer wouldn't have to explain too many NDs in his command. An order BTW that I would have cheerfully disobeyed.

Joe, you rightly said to me that we have officers coming up who've got real experience in what matters, well, we can't get rid of these puffed-up gendings fast enough. You got an e-mail on the rifleman acct.

What?! Well, yes; I'm a little worked up, why'd you ask?

Edited to add:

What Hasan did was not terrorism, it was treason. As a serving officer he took up arms against the armed forces of his own nation in a time of war. His motives (though obvious to anyone not twisting pretzel-like to avoid them) don't matter. The proper course of action is not in doubt: Courts-Martial followed by execution. You will not see this. I don't know what theraputic, third-way will be found to do it, but they will somehow drag this into the civilian courts where it will stretch on until we beg them to end it before we all slit our own wrists. Then we'll all get to pay for his room & board for a couple of decades while it's appealed. Half of us will die before that malignant little oxigen thief.

...but I'm not bitter.

SSG Mac
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 12:48:58 (ZULU)

CDC - Your product has been introduced on three shooter sites with high traffic. The example you sold me is currently on loan to a county tac team sniper. Word of mouth is slow here in the tri-state area, but when a new product hits the circuit with no bona-fide credentials behind it (I am a mere medic).... it get's picked up by the first 'stud' that likes it. Sooner or later, all the "100 yard snipers" will need one.

medicjim
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 14:00:57 (ZULU)

SSGMac: Amen, brother. Amen.

I carried illegally when I was flying in the Navy. Came in handy once in Mogadishu.

One of the worst casualties of the cold war was the neutron bomb. Cleanup would be easier and you could move into the buildings aferward.....

Charles S. Hunt
Kabul, , Afghanistan - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 14:37:36 (ZULU)

My experience is just like Joe's except I was in Ft. Campbell. The rules that applied to get the gun on-off post (between my quarters and the gate) were so complicated and onerous that I never went armed in town. Ironically since becoming a civilian, I have never lived in a place that had more gun control than Ft. Campbell.

LTChip
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 15:31:27 (ZULU)

LtChip:

I've been opining for the last couple of days that "Once again, gun-free zones prove to be the most dangerous place to be when the shooting starts." If soldiers are not competent to go armed, what the hell are we doing sending them into battle? And present policy declares them to be incompetent.

I don't mean that you let every man go armed without restriction, but I do mean that every leader - from a squad leader on up - always be armed with his sidearm as a matter of policy. These men are warriors - treat them as such!

I know that this is overly simplistic - but the present policy of, effectively, "every man unarmed" in ZI, and "all weapons unloaded" in "safe" areas of combat zones, is simply insane. If you know that everyone in some area is unarmed, or that his weapon is unloaded, you know where the soft targets are. You don't see armed robberies in gun stores.

I work at a hardware store which sells guns and usually has a few armed people moving about the store. The shop next to us is a general merchandise store. A few weeks ago, there was an armed robbery. Guess which store was hit? (not ours)

Happy Birthday, Marines!

Mike

BMG Mike
AUSTX, - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 16:06:32 (ZULU)

re: scum-safe zones

I like the phrase "unilateral personal disarmament". Conveys the right tone. Who says the antis have to pick our vocabulary...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 16:23:59 (ZULU)

Undude: "I seldom have conflicts with shooters when we talk face to face because its easily understood then"

Man, you are so big that you resolve conflict by your presence - understanding not necessary, other than understanding that "the hurt" is not too far away!

Stay safe!!

Mike

B
AUSTX, - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 16:32:38 (ZULU)

Kitty Lady...

I use two HP Strobotacs. They can be slaved together or fired separately. I have a microphone trigger, an infrared beam trigger, and a wire "make or break" trigger.

The nice thing about them is the strobe arc is a line about .3" so they work great for Schlieren systems without loosing any light going through the gates... and the colour temp is ~7,000 Kelvin so they can do colour Schlieren with about 20cc of yellow.

>"behind me wifhth a C, a CCW...I lovesh ya all..."<

Has her been in the dark rum again :)))

rod.

Most often these data sheets are written by office folks, not engineers... and they are proof read by spell and grammar checkers, not engineers.... technical details are the first victim of this process. I mean, what is a few zero's along the way.

Here's the quandary. To have a fast strobe, you need high voltage and low current, plus a very (repeat VERY) low impedance path, which means short (on the order of ~1/4 to 3/8ths") electrode spacing... which means no "computer" circuitry in the way of the capacitor dump. These high speed strobes have power ranges in the 1/2 to 4 watt range. If you increase the power, you need to increase the path distance and gas pressure. In hobby use, general purpose strobes, you have all that computer crapola in the path, including a "quench circuit" to turn things off when the "right amount of light" has been released... all of which is inconsistent with the design of very high speed strobes.

Over optimistic??? I would say "creative" in language translation and copy department.

Kitty whomper

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 17:13:43 (ZULU)

Well said news. My mom is very sick with cancer and I have to go home in a couple of weeks to deal with the issue.

Hard to leave, but will early in December. Deal with home stuff and then return.

I have to say this is best mission I have ever been a part of. OPSEC does not allow me to say more on this forum but Joe over beers I would love to tell you about it.

Our country owes so much to these folks. If I ever hear anyone say a bad thing about our Military folks I will probably be in prison for what will most likely be an uncontrolled event.

Joe thanks again for all you have done

God Bless our Troops.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 18:08:50 (ZULU)

Undude, sorry to hear about your Mom.

medicjim
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 19:53:42 (ZULU)

Mike...Sorry to hear about your mother. You are in my prayers.

HDR
OK, - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 21:10:53 (ZULU)

Sorry to hear that Mike. Mine has been hanging in there with a real bad heart for much longer than we thought she would. Everyday is a gift.

That asshole that was shooting people from the trunk of his car with a teenage accomplice around the D.C. area back in 'O2 will die tonight. Unfortunately it will be by lethal injection. I can think of many more appropriate methods but at least he will get it and soon.

click

MarcS
South S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 21:17:34 (ZULU)

Mike, sorry to hear about your Mom. Prayers for her and you.

Agreed about the MIL folks. They do wonders that no one can ever know or appreciate.

SSG Mac
Back on my meds, much calmer now..., - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 21:33:19 (ZULU)

Mike,

Sorry about your Mom. Both of you will be in my prayers.

Cheers & WY6,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 22:48:43 (ZULU)

Mike,

Prayers going your mom's and your way.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 23:22:26 (ZULU)

Mike, My best hopes for your mom and you. I'm sure you'll be an incredible comfort for her. I know there are really no words, but take care of yourself too. Also, thank you for doing what you're doing over there...Whatever you have been doing would be so rewarding!

Again, You are doing a lot for your mom and I bet she knows it too! She won't be alone.

Best and you'll be in my thoughts and prayers..

Kat

Kat Girl
Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 23:34:41 (ZULU)

Happy 234th Birthday to The United States Marine Corps.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 10, 2009, at 23:47:25 (ZULU)

hmmm.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29330_Page2.html

medicjim
Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 02:32:38 (ZULU)

[news] Bar-Sto Moving from California to Sturgis, South Dakota

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=413910

California Firearms Company Relocates to Sturgis, South Dakota

PIERRE, S.D. - South Dakota is getting a new firearms manufacturing company. Bar-Sto, a maker of auto pistol barrels, will relocate its operations from Twentynine Palms, Calif., to Sturgis in the first half of 2010 and broke ground on their new facility today. The firm expects to bring 18 jobs to Sturgis in the next three years.

“Bar-Sto is exactly the kind of quality company we look to recruit,” said Gov. Mike Rounds. “It is a family-owned company, has been in the firearms industry more than 40 years, and has a varied clientele that includes major gun manufacturers, private citizens and custom gunsmiths.”

In addition to selling barrels to top gun makers, Bar-Sto barrels have also been used by the U.S. Marine Corps Marksmanship Unit, National Guard and Air Force teams, as well as in major pistol tournaments such as Camp Perry, the USPSA Nationals, Steel Challenge and the Masters.

“South Dakota is really a great place to do business,” said Irv Stone, second-generation owner of Bar-Sto. “The differences in the tax climates between California and South Dakota are night and day, and we have been treated real well by the GOED (Governor’s Office of Economic Development) and the Sturgis Area Economic Development.”

Bar-Sto plans to build a 6,000-square-foot building in the Sturgis industrial park. The company received workforce development funds and relocation assistance through GOED and is partnering with Sturgis on the building.

“We are very pleased that Irv Stone, his family and Bar-Sto have decided to relocate to Sturgis,” said Paul Bisson, co-chairman of the Sturgis Economic Development Corporation board. “We believe it will be a great fit for the company and the Sturgis community. We are very proud of our workforce and believe the company will benefit from this move.”

__________________

On a personal note, before the US ITAR export rules got so stupid, I purchased two Bar Sto barrels for S&W autopistols. Significant improvement in accuracy.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 02:42:11 (ZULU)

MedicJim...

Hmmmm?

Yes, very Hmmmmmm!

Meow Man.

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 02:45:01 (ZULU)

Mike: Sad news, indeed. Vaya con Dios, amigo. Y su madre.

Charles S. Hunt
Kabul, Afghanistan - Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 03:40:43 (ZULU)

Undude: Safe journey and you and yours go in our prayers here on the homefront.

Charles: Check 6 often--with the announcement of "the plan" from "the one"--I expect some reactions from the bad guys. A little Tet to cement the opposition in congress, for example. Those clowns have shown a capacity to mass that was unheard of in my days yonder. You reside in the HVT of HVTs.

So do WY6 in the coming weeks...

You remain in our prayers, too. My girls wouldn't hear otherwise:-)) Their list of heros isn't very long--most here could name them...and you've been on that list for a while now.

Joe M
Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 04:51:56 (ZULU)

UnDude and Chuck - Keep safe you guys! We all like you in spite of the fact that, well. You know. That you're good at firearms..."You have guns?"

Seriously - Stay alive and dish it out! You guys are on my hero list.

Kat Girl

p.s. 'lito you must have more than one optical bench!

Kat Girl
Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 05:24:13 (ZULU)

Joe:

Thanks. Wilco. What we have here, more than a concerted effort, is 200 or more separate civil wars. Stay out of the Wazooistan valley, no one cares about America. Put in a FOB, and now you are the hated enemy. These folks hate the guys from the next valley, so hating us is no big surprise, except to the dumbass politicians. They'll take our help to toss out the Taliban that are in THEIR valley, but once that's over, ya better unass the AO or you are now top of the list. Too bad we can't ask Alexander how many troops he committed to this JATWISH of a country, probably as many as we will, with the same result. Whatever, as long as DoS keeps shovelling out the paychecks, tomorrow is a good day.

Mike, LMK how it's going. Don't know what else to say that would help.

Charles S. Hunt
Kabul, Afghanistan - Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 06:42:01 (ZULU)

Mike M: Cancer got my dad. My mom has been fighting it for years. The fight is almost over. I know what you are going through nd my heart goes out to you, my friend. I'd like to find some words that help but I don't know any.

Shoot me a physical addy.

Don't take unnecessary risks and stay in yellow.

That last part goes for you also, Charles. &nbs