January 1999

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 00:41:45 (EST) 

al
Alexander Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Getting Ready for Usher In 1999 with my Sweetie in Blustery, Ohio USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 01:09:33 (EST) 

Pat(Mr Bullet),
I Hope all goes well for your wife and both of you return home safely. Do you want to tell Jeff A. we're increasing the voltage in therapy or should I?

Bolt,
Try the Hornady TAP too in addition to X-rings selections. Did ya get the PSS for X-mas? Harris shorty and/or tripod gets my vote!
 

Euro-Dudes:
Is that Walther "cheapie" anything like the old KKM's i think that was the model? a most excellent price!

Chao for now!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
DEER-CITY, bY-gAWd USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 11:06:07 (EST) 

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 13:14:54 (EST) 

Greetings from West by Gawd. Got another couple of days up here then its back to Clintonia to pack my trash, my dog and my guns to head back.

Storm Mountain is everything I thought it would be, except colder.

Mike - Brought your slings up here and we are going to play today. We are thinking about using them at a combat Service Rifle match with AR's in Canada this year.

PNgreif. I fit the saddle to my tripod looks good. I'll be getting with Kudu and make some minor mods to the attachment system and we'll let the students play with it this spring.

We are stroking the databook. My moving is slowing this down a bit but we'll have for you guys soon enough for spring.

Rick, you gotta get your butt up here man. Bring the old lady.

Kudu, Hoist me.

Well guys gotta go.

See ya.
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 14:02:50 (EST) 

You are hereby directed to get the following book:

"Book of Rifles", by WHB Smith & Joseph E Smith, The Stackpole Company, copyright 1948 by the NRA, reprinted in 1960 and 1963. The Library of Congress number is 63-12562.

Good reading and have fun identifying your rifle.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatic.ca>
Canada - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 15:38:12 (EST) 

Lou
Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 18:06:08 (EST) 

Products I have recently tried that are great: 1. Slope doper this thing is great and thanks Dave for it. 2. MilDot Master You are a god for inventing this. Everyone should have one.

I was sorry to hear about B&L stopping production of the Tactical scope. The more I use mine the more I like it.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 23:15:35 (EST) 

The author mentioned that all of his rifles have
Tasco 6x24 40mm scopes on them.

Does anyone which flavor? (...there are several
Tasco's of that power)

I have been looking at scopes that are considerably more
expensive that the above mentioned....but if it's good
for him.....it may very well be good enough for me !!!

Has anyone had experience with these scopes ???

Thanks for the help !!!
Ken <kknjoey@webzone.net>
Broken Arrow, OK USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 01:02:51 (EST) 

Would be interested in results (not theories) of shooters that have shot the heavier Sierras and/or Bergers in 12" twist barrels at long range.

Pablito

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
It's 2 damn degrees here!!!, in Connecticut! USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 12:04:51 (EST) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 14:18:03 (EST) 

Oh well! Hey Marius can we put a spell checker on this thing!!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 14:21:50 (EST) 

Pablito,
I have a 1 in 12 twist 308 tactical with a Hart heavy barrel and it shoots the 168s and 155s into .3s or under all day long. I tried some Berger 175 VLDs in it and they shot into .3 and 4s at 100yds and I then tried them at 400yds and they shot into .6 MOA and I was pleased with this until I shot the 155s which were under .5 MOA and 4 were in .25 MOA!! So I have to agree with what you say . Would you believe I let my kid talk me out of this rifle!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 14:41:44 (EST) 

All barrels have a crown, technically. It is where the bullet exits the barrel. Maybe what the writer meant was that the crown was not coned, counterbored, etc. Even a straight 90° cut across the barrel face is a "crown". A crown doesn't have to be fancy to do what is needed. Assume that the bullet is straight in the barrel (large assumption). We want the gases to vent evenly around the circumference of the bullet base as it breaks seal with the crown. You probably already know this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lou,
I have no qualms with the Greenhill formula, and it has serve us well for century or so. I suggest you visit this site and enter the data that you have at hand and it will calculate the stability factor of the bullet. This is from the McGyro program developed by Bill Davis and Robert McCoy. This program takes into consideration:
O.A.L. of projectile
Nose length
Meplat diameter
Nose shape
Boattail length
End diameter
Twist rate
A stability factor of between 1.25 and 1.75 or so will serve you well.
http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/ballistics/drag/drag.html

Although Bill from Clearwater uses the fastest twist consistent with several parameters, conventional thought it to use the slowest that will get the job done. This way bullet balance problems are not accentuated, but minimized. Now one can say, "I always use Bergers, etc. and my bullets ARE in balance." OK,…I use them too. But when bullets feed into the lead they are usually not concentric and on-axis with the bore and therefore take on a shape that is conducive to perfect balance.

I am just picking nits here, but thought you would like to hear the other side of the coin. Tactical people and target shooters SHOULD be picking nits. More accuracy never hurts and may do some good. No sense in giving it away for no benefit.

In Champions Choice catalog they mentioned stocking 1:11 twist Kreiger's for people who can not make up their mind. Sounds like a reasonable solution to me.

As an aside, back in the '60s and early '70s when 168s were used in benchrest competition, 1:14" twist ruled.

My Rem. 40-XC has a 1:12 ¼" twist barrel and uses 190 gr. Sierra's just fine.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 15:07:51 (EST) 

A few years ago I got my hands on some Remington .308 Bench Rest brass but I never used it yet. I'm not sure why but they use small primers. Has anyone out there used this brass before? Any hints about this stuff that might save me time at the loading bench will be greatly appreciated.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 16:01:30 (EST) 

i would if there was anything to hoist.

got your 6 dude, need any assist........any at all, ll me back.

kudu out
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 21:44:34 (EST) 

If you are interested in paper bullseye shooting go digging around the Dominion of Canada Rifle Assoc website for the Royal New Brunswick Rifle Association. If you are interested in selling ... There are a couple of peddlers I can name who will get the rifle into the proper market.
 

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 23:06:15 (EST) 

I hope that everyone had a good Christmas and new year.

Al, did Santa bring you your Mil-dot Master? He knew once I started playing around with the new M3 that I would have to buy one also. I honestly think that he is punishing me! Maybe next year I won't be so bad. Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

Well, I can't get to the range to shoot for all the snow. Don't have my bolt rifle to shoot even if I could. What do ya do with all this snow? Did I mention that it snowed?
I think that it's time to dust off the skis and hit the slopes!
 
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Too much snow in, IL. USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 07:57:16 (EST) 

The idea behind the small primers (in Remington 308 BR) is that it allows the powder to burn more evenly, But, ignition problems can happen.

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Freezing my A__ off in , Blistering Cold West Virginia USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 12:06:36 (EST) 

1. Ideal sniper spotter's backup weapon. AR15, etc?

2. Carry gear. For 3-5 day insertion, what gear to carry including tactical vest, backpack, ammo, food, etc.? Major Plaster's gear seems to be taylored to LE instead of field.

3. Are drag bags actually used on a mission, or just for carry purposes?

Scott, got the message, all slings are up for sale. Do you also remove the swivel studs? What do you fill the holes with?

Gillie monster suit construction is underway!

thanks, Bolt
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 13:03:42 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34347@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 13:16:23 (EST) 

D. West:
In case you haven't noticed it snowed up here recently. Out in front of the house, somewhere in a chest deep snowdrift my car is waiting for me. Looks like we won't be shooting on that farm for a while.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
Snowcity (Chicago), USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 14:30:38 (EST) 

Sincerely,

Lou
Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 14:41:21 (EST) 

It appears that Storm Mountain will be fielding a team for this years Dominion of Canada Rifle Association/Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships. Any other schools up to fielding teams? Web site is www.DCRA.ca. Matches are the end of July and cover sniper team, pistol and service rifle. We are trying to make it a Storm Mountain/Armament Technolgy team. Come on guys. It'll be fun to watch us win every thing.

See ya.
Gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 15:19:28 (EST) 

Any advice on what barrel to choose? I'd like a 5R but that subject's been addressed already.
Greg in PA <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 15:30:16 (EST) 

The CIL rifle that Terry is refering to is the CIL 950T. Unless I read it wrong, the owner of the CIL stated that it was a 950C. I wouldn't have a clue on that one. Very few 950T's were made for Canadian target shooting in the late 60's or early 70's. Jim Houlden was behind CIL offering this rifle at the time and I think he told me that only about 275 were made. In issue form I can state that it is a rare beastie. Most have been rebarreled or the club that was used for the "issue" stock was modified or replaced. The story was that two barrels were shipped with the rifles. One an Anschutz and the other a Savage. The reason that one of the barrels was never used was that it was chambered backwards. Don't anyone ask details on this because my ancient brain just doesn't recall.

There was mention by someone of going to the DCRA matches in August. This has been my annual vacation for going on twenty years. It is a highly recommended trip and the setting is one you won't soon forget.

As to the post on fitting the fastest twist barrel that will ever be necessary until rebarreling....This is excellent advice. It is very hard to overspin a GOOD bullet.

The 175 Sierra is an extrmemely good bullet. In my .308 Krieger 1 in 13" .298 - .3065 machine rest barrel, I've shot quite a lot of these bullets, mainly Federal .308M2, in a mid-production test about a year ago for federal. I don't recall the exact figures but the average was certainly under 1/2 minute at 500 yards. In two tests of ten rounds of handloaded ammunition, each test was exactly 1/4 minute
or 1 1/4". Very impressive!

Sorry for the rattle, but I'm snowed in.

The very best 1999 to all.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
IL USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 17:45:21 (EST) 

The best story I can tell about Bill, old friend of friends of mine, is his 'ceramic barreled Model 700'. Stress cracks and all, he can almost outshoot anything else on the line.

The CIL 950C maybe a single shot varmint action. It may just be a magazine deer rifle. There was a time when the $C was better than the $US and gun makers sold a lot of guns into Canada.

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 19:59:58 (EST) 

I have a question about the Savage 110 FP rifle and long-action rifles in general. Do any of you have any experience with these type of rifles jamming? I recently read a sniper's comment that unless the ammo is pushed all the way back in the magazine, long-action rifles tend to jam. Is this typical? I intend to purchase a rifle soon and want to know if I should consider a short-action rifle. Are these any better for that matter?

Thanks,

Marshal Childers
HavredeGrace, MD
Marshal Childers <mchild2@erols.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 21:38:38 (EST) 

Zero
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 02:56:47 (EST) 

I zaped the sim. to you. Enjoy. As far as I know the target is a 2 meter giant, and the round the M 118.

I also have another Swat game sim. that has a realy nice sniper trainer with dope book, Leupold Mk 4, etc., you need to manipulate the bolt to load, dial in your range, and can shoot paper, irons, and ballons, in the try out phase. In the swat team phase the brown stuff rally hits the fan.

Anyone else out there have this ?? Bought it here in Germany, was on sale, since its more of a think/ tactic type sim and not a "Rambo Tito" game.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 04:29:08 (EST) 

In the Military the Sniper and Observer swap duties and rifles. With a Law Enforcement team there cxan be no swaping of rifles. The Liability factor is to great. The Law Enforcement Observer should have a rifle as capable as the primary sniper. This will allow the Observer to assume the roll of the sniper to releave the sniper if the situation starts to drag out. (Tests show the sniper's ability to exicute a precision shot after about 20 minutes of staring through the rifle scope begin to fall off.)

An AR-15 properly set up could fill in as an observer's rifle. The problems that can not be over come with a properly set-up AR-15 are the slinging of the brass, and the small caliber not being a very good glass penetrator.

Look at your needs and fit the equipment to that need.

Bruce G.Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC

Bruce <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jacksonville, FL USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 11:13:46 (EST) 

my contact at Special Air Sea Services just informed me that they have a small stock of OD open top drawstring Gore-Tex Bivi Bags in new condition for about 30 Pounds (+- 50$) each.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 11:41:20 (EST) 

You mean the "Spotter confirms Center Hit" game? Great Fun for those blustery By-Gawd days of late.

Sat. 23:30 hrs rainy, sleeting, generally rotten out and heading for work I hit the crest of a ice glazed hill with about 100 feet of murky visibility and a deer gracefully hops the fence on my port side and begins to cross.
Not to worry, I carefully brake/ downshift and then as I smugly look on Three more come over the fence after him. Uhhhhh-Ohhhhh
Them Deers see me, freak, and start slipping and sliding in the middle of the road as I begin the slow motion powerslide ballet "Deer Lake"
I just regain control and they break left and begin to flop around running/falling down the hill in the same direction I was travelling. Somehow I made it through four deer spasming in a twenty foot wide road downhill backwards neither tagging a deer/s or sliding off the roadway. Allah, (I mean Bubba) be Praised!

And here you guys are whining about being "Stuck Inside" Waaaa! Good thing I did not stop at 7-11 for coffee Eh?

Stay warm and safe Dudes!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
cOLder tHeN dEPiTiEs sIdE oF tHe MouNTn, By-Gawd USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 12:13:07 (EST) 

Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 13:41:24 (EST) 

Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
unnormally cold in, Tennessee USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 14:11:13 (EST) 

Pablito.
Paul Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 14:45:28 (EST) 

Drag bag: Depends on who you talk to. From what I understand some instructors hate them. If you get a good one, it can replace the ruck on short missions, but at the same time it'll weigh a ton. I used to prefer the simple drag bag that allows no more gear than a rifle and data books. I am currently reviewing a bag that allows you to carry spotting scope, tripod, maps, and other essentials I would have put in a ruck. It even straps on like a ruck but this high "stick" does present the problem of TARGET indicator. Probably not so much an issue in LE. The all purpose drag bag does have the advantage of always being with you, where as the temptation is to cache the ruck during a stalk. Anyway, the short of it is YES. It is taken on the mission.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:12:46 (EST) 

Scott, please clarify...are you saying not to use a sling or not to use a carry strap? I actually find a sling rather helpful when shooting from unusual positions.

Zero, look through a bunch of scopes both cheap and expensive. You may find that the quality of the cheap scopes is such that you will be better served by saving the money up a little longer to get something of a little better quality.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:32:53 (EST) 

jep, thats the one. " double tap to the head ....... Beeeep.... "

or the El Presidente Drill, what a joy. and you can really piss of the DI.

In the actuall game I never made it past the scene were I dumped old Grandma in the shower! Ouups !

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:40:34 (EST) 

when checking the scopes, ask the salesguy to step outside with them as looking through a window will certainly not give you a clear picture.

time to feed the neighbours kittens........... to my 110 lb. bernese mountain dog
Torsten <ya know>
G3land - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:51:26 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 19:49:52 (EST) 

Sorry to hear of your loss. The kind words that you have posted about your father serve as a good memorial to an obviously honorable man.
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 19:54:01 (EST) 

What do you'all do about them? Seems they're always fogging up (tried sea drops, spit, other antifog compounds) and they just give your position away. I am sure at least 3 deer this year clued in on my position by seeing them.

Are contacts a good option - there is the question about dirt getting in them on a sneak.

On the good side, I got to within 20 feet of a small doe while still hunting. At about 25 yards, she got curious and strolled in the rest of the way. Dead deer if I had been so inclined. (legal, just didn't want to).

If you can sneak up on a deer, you can sneak up on almost anything (except the Storm Mountain spotters)

Pat - sorry to hear about your wife. My brother-in-law had a marrow transplant for luekemia a bit over a year ago. They caught it early and he is recovering well.

Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Minneapolis, Mn USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 19:56:23 (EST) 

The civilian matches are Palma stle lie-flat and hit the bullseye. There is a class for precision scoped bipod rifles, such as most listers' already own. The rifles are shot at the same target and on the same course of fire as the off-the-elbows target rifles.

The gun laws are not that complicated - yet. Essentially, bolt actions are no problems. Semi's are either Restricted and treated like handguns, or Prohibited and not allowed across the border. Handguns are not permitted for personal protection. Semi-auto magazines over 5-shot capacity are Prohibited Devices and don't get into the country. You'd better practice your mag changes mid-string. AR-15's and that ilk are Restricted. As long as you can prove you are going to a match, and it cannot go full auto, then you are allowed to bring it in. M1A's are not Restricted. M14's are Prohibited. Safe storage means disable the firearm with a lock. No particular limits on ammo.

The Canadian Department of Justice's Canadian Firearms Centre has a website. Be patient with them right now. They are trying to register every Canadian's firearms, and just can't get the software to behave. Deadline for that piece of genius is 2003.

However, the hospitality will be memorable. The beer is good. And the US$ is worth about C$1.50.

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 20:27:44 (EST) 

Glasses & contacts? Have you given it a thought to check into laser eye surgery? I just got it done in October and it is remarkable! I've had problems with contacts almost all my life ( Ok, I'm not as old as some of you are ) from infections to loosing them doing everything.
Funny how everyone will spend mega $ on good optics and never give their own eyes a thought. I know that things COULD go wrong with the surgery, but most of the problems that happen is when they don't fallow the Doctors orders.
One exam can tell you if you're good to go and how close to 20/20 you could get.
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Still shoveling #*% snow, in IL. !!! USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 21:09:51 (EST) 

The best to you and yours...
Pablito.
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 21:44:00 (EST) 

Pablito,

Gotta mount board with Berger 175 VLD, Sierra 175, Hornady 178 gr. National Match & 168 A-Max sitting atop my monitor. The A-Maxes got that red synthetic tip and the National Matches have a very curious tip ogive/meplat that kinda rounds over on the edges in a manner that I can only describe as similar to a .22 rimfire.
For a lack of better words the 178NM is more streamlined/elongated through the area between the body and meplat but appears to share the same angle for the boat tail as the A-Max. So far I've found they DO SHOOT in my limited testing over the past few months w/ Varget. Like I said a couple weeks ago, BAD TO THE BONE!
 
 

Anybody Else played with them yet? Pat(MRBULLET)? Jeff A.? Bill R?
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
WARM INSIDE, bY-GaWd USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 22:11:22 (EST) 

Cold as your ex-wife's butt here in Ohio, and the white shit is still falling. Going to go bundle up to a perfect hourglass shaped body to keep me warm on this cold winter night. Just the thought of . . . oh fellas, - I gotta go!!!! Oooooooohhhhhh.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Shrunk up to the size of peas in blistering cold, Ohio USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 02:06:38 (EST) 

1 MOA clicks: Refer to what Rick had to say about them a while back. They are so much easier to use and far more grunt proof than the 1/4 clicks. And even at 600m you will only be 3.3" off one way or the other max. Wind and weather throw me off more than that on the first shot of the day (course I use Gods own rangefinder). As far as the scopes go, my greatest experience is with the M3's and I have found some that were very mushy and others that clicked right nicely.

Drag Bags: The smaller and lighter the better. I personally have a love/hate relationship with them. I love them on a classic stalk, like in a school situation. So much easier to crawl. Real world though I DO NOT like having my rifle in a bag. Then there is the spotter who has an M203, there is the 25lb radio, batteries, binos, NODs, spotter scope, MELIOS, and other ass't, but all important crap (like 5.56mm, 40mm, grenades, smoke, claymore, and the LBV that it hangs off, etc...) I have an small ruck that I g'd up just to tote around some of that junk on a stalk. Hell, I often think that the ghillie itself is a viscious joke that the Scotts have been laughing hystericaly about behind their kilts since WWI. But that is another piece of heresy for another day.
Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 05:19:24 (EST) 

I'm at 44.0 grains of Varget with just about everything under the sun in .308. I carefully worked up, as you did, with all projectiles and at 44.0 gr. my rifle just seems at its best.
With the 178 gr. National Matches I'm just begining to seem a very slight amount of flattening of the primers (at 85degrees F) and the groups seem pretty good considering my often spastic ability.
I use the same charge weight with the Sierra 175's and am getting real good results for a non 5-R factory barrel out to 200 yards which is the max. available to me.

Other powders are not a consideration to me at this time, Varget is less temp. sensitive and meters great through my geriatric uniflo. If you have not hit their web page (via Links page) do so and look at the testing they did with regards to temp and pressures. Great Stuff.

If I do go to another powder it will be VihtaVuori N-500/550 series its the only possible alternative according to my research. Coffees up time to go!

peteR
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
YAWN-CITY, bY-GaWd USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 09:14:28 (EST) 

Jeff A,
The "FAT BARRELL" is headed home!!! Just talked to the smith last night. Now if it would just get above "0" so I could shoot it.I got some more loading data from Hornady for the 260 drop me your address and I'll send it to you.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 09:31:33 (EST) 

I will be at the Shot Show in Atlanta, and some of you have already mailed me that you can make it there as well. What about a get together ? We could hit a Steak House or something and BS a little.

I´ll impact in Atlanta on Saturday 30th around 18:00 and eject again on Thursday 4th at 21:00.

Any takers ?

"ENDE"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 10:58:29 (EST) 

Have "max'd" out at 45 grs Varget with 168 and 175 moly'd Sierras. 'Course both barrels and chambers are a bit "tight" so that load works for me. In another shooters Rem 308PSS, we have found that 43.7 gives him the accuracy out to 500. Whatever works for you !!

I like Torstens idea for the SHOT show, IF he comes through for me(hint hint)!!! I'll be in Atlanta on the 1st mid-day, Copy that JEFF ?? Long enough post, need to make another pot of coffee 'fore i head to the woods. ONLY 28 degrees here in SUNNY AL !!!
OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 13:40:16 (EST) 

D.West: Yes, Mr. West. I did get my Mil-Dot Master from Santa, but he got a little miffed when I took a crack a Rudolf on Christmas eve. Guess he won't be coming back here next year - that fat little bastard.

Torsten: Good luck getting around in Atlanta. You will find out real quick that Atlanta ain't Deutschland. Come up north a little "und ich habe gute deutsche bier!" Ja! Ja! I'll keep it warm for you, just like they do in Dusseldorf und Hamburg.

Will: 43.7 sound like a good compromise on the Varget powder. Still a littl eunsure about the 4064 and pushing it past published Sierra limits.

peteR: Last night the AAAAAAAaaaahhhhhhhh was not a question. If was a statement of fact - if you follow my drift.

Thanks to all with the help about the powder. And Sarge!! Where the hell have you been hiding.

al o. ( Just so nobody confuses me with al b. in the Big Apple.)
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Everything is frozen up here in -2 degree , Ohio USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 16:42:32 (EST) 

We Atlantans need to designate a social coordinator for this event, i.e., someone who can coordinate when to get together for the Sniper Dinner, and hotels.

If it is warranted, I could work with some of the Hotels in the College Park (ATL Airport) area to see if we can get you guys a good rate. Let me know.

If we can get enough folks, I could probably arrange a reception room for a social one night. The only night that I am gonna be tied up is the night of the Glock reception...

RE: Savage vs. Remington

Triggers: Savage sucks...End of Statement. Even with the adjustability, it is difficult to get a Savage trigger close to a Remington that is properly adjusted.

Barrels: They vary in both guns. So far, one of the best shooting guns that I have shot was a 110FP in 7 Rem. Mag. 3/4 inches at 200!

But, I have found both brands to be very individualistic. Each individual gun has a different personality. I have shot good Savages, and bad ones. Same with the Remington.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 17:09:06 (EST) 

"At a recent gun show, a guy was selling U.S. military smoke grenades and white parachute flares. Are these things legal to buy, i.e. does the military ever dispose of such items to civilians?"

Yes they are legal to own, but check your local laws... most don't care but places like New York City might not like it.

The military disposes of these types of articals by "DATE"!
After a date (like milk) they are sold at auction... to business' and
individuals.
Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 17:36:02 (EST) 

The Stoner is still working well after about 600 rounds. I've been warned by people here that they've been known to develop wandering zero problems by now, but no sign of that yet (knock on wood). One of the guys at work has bought himself a SR-25 and one of Leupold's new long-distance scopes, but I haven't talked him into coming out to the tactical rifle match yet. (See "Sacramento Snipers" article.)

I came in first place in December's match, the second time I've done that. In January's, we had fog to where you couldn't see the berm from the 200-yard line. We put up half-sized sillhouettes and moved the firing line back and forth to positions where we could barely make out the targets. The B&L Tactical scope worked well, sometimes getting off aimed shots when others couldn't tell the targets were there. I cross-shot on one target and came up 5 points short of first place, drat.

We have a real-live military sniper from an Army Rangers unit who has shown up at our match the last 3 months. He claims to have been on active duty in Somalia and Bosnia.

I ordered a drag bag/shooting mat from Eagle Industries. After I was told it was out of stock and would take a month and a half to arrive, the darn thing showed up on my doorstep a week later. I am thoroughly delighted with the design and workmanship of this case, thanks for the recommendations from Sniper Country. The Stoner is a tight fit, but the end result is much easier to handle than the factory case. I can't wait to put it to field use.

Tactical Firearms Training Team (http://www.tftt.com) will be holding a 3-day optical rifle course at the Sacramento range the last weekend in February, including camoflauge and stalking. Drop me a note if you're interested.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 17:47:13 (EST) 

Barry Chance <Barry_Chance@maxtor.com>
Longmont, CO USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 18:52:30 (EST) 

Speaking of bedding, has anyone used marine tex to bed a stock before? McMillan uses the stuff exclusively and so does the USMC.
Any comments would be welcome.

Thanks and sorry for the long post.
Pat <Autothority@Erols.com>
Ashburn, VA USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 19:16:42 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 20:54:43 (EST) 

I'm looking for info on mil. surplus ammo cal. 30-06 headstamped FN 58 bullet weight, vel., corrosive or not any help would be great.
Daniel <hinesd@gators.net>
Lacrosse, FL USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 23:28:10 (EST) 

Last night I put an AR-15 with a Weaver KT-15 scope in the backyard for a good cold soak. This morning it was minus 4° F. and provide a good test of the AR (lubed with LSA) and scope. The rifle worked fine, but the Weaver didn't care for the cold. The normally usable clicks were non-existent. Couldn't feel or hear anything. How do the better Leupolds hold up in "brisk" weather?
Food for thought.

Once someone commented that the Weaver KTs have a spring type vibration in them upon impact or firing a shot. He was correct. Don't know if it matters though. I had never noticed it on an AR-15 which is prone to the action spring noise and vibration.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 23:44:54 (EST) 

Been out for a while, New Years eve was pretty rough, but I stopped by for a look see on what I've been missing.

Mike from Cal,

An H-S stock is foam filled, it's a urethane foam with milled fiberglass mix, and is surrounded by a layer of graphite, kevlar, and laminated fiberglass, which is then coated with another urethane shell. Now to install your own cheek piece, whether or not you are qualified, would break my heart as I probably made the damn thing depending on how long ago you got it. Plus inside that foam is an aluminum bedding block which goes from forend past the palmswell clear into the butt, probably a couple inches shy of the recoil pad. I have made the adjustable stocks, cheek piece and LOP, and we use aluminum inserts to hold everything in place inside the stock, AND we have to trim the bedding block so everything will fit. Now if I was going to spend the time and money on an adjustable stock, I'd just call H-S and order one. Take it easy everybody.
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
Rapid City, SD USA - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 01:04:46 (EST) 

Al O.
Ok, I forgot to add the "O" to your name. You never can tell when Al B. might be lurking around the Roster, but ya gotta love-em!
 

D. West
USA - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 05:36:58 (EST) 

I agree on most of the points you make regarding Savage rifles.

When I ordered my 112FV .223 I did so because the rifle was very affordable,reasonably accurate, and because I wanted a faster twist rate (Savage has 1/9 twist) than what other manufactures were offering (example,Remington has 1/12 twist) so that I can shoot heavier .224 cal bullet weights.

You are correct that the Remington has the advantage when it comes to overall selection when it comes to aftermarket products.However,this situation is changing.More and more suppliers are producing aftermarket goodies for the Savages and the prices are comparable to what you would pay for other rifles such as Remington.

I certainly wouldn't buy a Savage with the intention on upgrading the overall rifle to the quality of a PSS.Heck,I'd just buy a PSS and be done with it even if it didn't have the twist rate I wanted.

But on the other hand if I was interested in building a rifle with the intention on customizing it I would personally would want to start out with the most economical barrel/action that was of acceptable accuracy potential.In other words, I wouldn't buy a PSS over a Savage to do this.Unless of course I wanted a Remington in the first place (been there, done that) in which case I'd probably buy a Varmint Special with laminate stock.

Just some food for thought.

To:Ron N.

Ron, did you notice any accuracy difference when the rifle was that cold ? If so,approximately how much? Good point about the scope being finicky about the cold.I think I'll try that myself.
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 11:04:23 (EST) 

By the way, I believe H.S. now offers to upgrade the standard PSS stock with the new adjustable cheek rest for around $100. This would certainly be worth it for those who want a higher rest but do not want to 100mph tape a pad to the rifle. Also, the factory job will obviously be very well done when compared to some "home brew" solutions. Just thought I'd past this on.

JR, thanks again for the low down on the HS construction.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 11:36:16 (EST) 

We know cold air (that is not 'thin wind') is denser. What effect does this have on ballistics? Sea level performance in the summer is one thing, what about the depths of winter?

From the scope test, we know springs and lubes behave slower in the cold. What effect does this have on rifles? Are there any rifles that won't work in the cold - semi autos, high spec' rifles?

We know fingers and muscles dislike the cold. What is the effect on the shooter?

Finally, condensation from breathing will fog eyepieces (know this from experience). What can be done to avoid this?

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
minus 36 degrees with a slight breeze, Canada - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:08:05 (EST) 

A most excellence post dude!

But,

I believe the bretheren is interested in first round accuracy w/o fouling shots. If you discount the first round fired, you're only fooling yourself. What is most often called a Cold Barrel Shot and it can't be "Bogus" in the real world.

What was the deviation from the intended point of impact for Remington vs. Savage?

Maybe a repeat test without cleaning the barrel between strings, or fouling shots could provide more most excellent enlightenment to all of us.

Shoot what you got, and shoot it (precisely) lots.

Paul H, Moly Coated DRAG BAG! DUUUDEEEE! Where can I get One!
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
tHAwING-oUT cItY, bY-gAWd USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:37:16 (EST) 

A few winters ago we had it as bad as you now, with temps in -20°C. I had my breath, or just the condensation of my body forming ice flowers on the lens during a hunting trip.

My quick fix was one of my long socks into which I slipped one of those small heat bags for warm toes. I tied the sock in an O and used it as a lens cover with the warm toaster bag in the rear.
Presto, warm objective, and no more condensation.
This year, if it ever gets cold, I try just taping the bag to the outside of the objective, may warm the lens that way?

Try it and tell me about it, but dont heat up the lens to quick or it may fracture.

"ENDE"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:40:16 (EST) 

1. Use RainX anti-fog on the eyepiece and Regular RainX on the objective.
2. Avoid a wide brimmed hat and thick ghillie veil. Just the heat from your head can fog up the eyepiece.
3. Breath out your nose as much as possible. It directs the hot moist air from your lungs away from the scope.
4. Try to avoid moving the weapon from warm indoors to cold outdoors a lot. In the Marines we used to try to use a cold room to store weapons in cold weather to keep condensation down. When living in an arctic tent with a yukon stove or such, keep weapons behind the frost liner if the tent has one.

Weapons operation in the cold. Its more of a lubrication thing than anything else. For semi-auto's use 3-in-one oil, with bolt guns white lithium grease has worked for me. Moly lube?

We are in the short strokes on the data book.

Later

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 10:00:15 (EST) 

Well off to shoot my Rifle and see if I should be using Varget instead of the 4064 I have been using for years. Varget is alot eaiser to measure for sure.

I'm back to using non Molly in my sniper rifle. First round from a clean bbl is to erratic for me. I have heard about leaving a fouling shot but that just rubs the grain the wrong way to leave a rifle dirty.

To who asked about Marine Tex and who said it was expensive. It is a great bedding compound and cost $6.00 for 1/2 pint in Calif. That seems cheap to me. You can do alot of rifles with 1/2 pint. A quart is $13.00 and that will go bad before it is used. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 11:33:52 (EST) 

I am asking that any of you out there who may be interested in one of these prints please phone Wayne Stallings at the Imagine Art Studio in Smithville, VA (1-800-303-9003) and express your desire that Lee Teter reconsider his position and press forward with this artwork.

I believe the final view of what is correct in the painting should be determined by the artist, Carlos, and his son Carlos III. For those of us that respect and honor this man, the opportunity to purchase a quality print of him as he would choose to be remembered should not be compromised by anyones "commitee" of critics.

Hopefully most of you will agree and we can get Lee to complete the work for printing.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 13:10:23 (EST)

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/guns/overview/

J.D.
J.D. Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 17:20:08 (EST) 

There may be hope for the American people yet (at least those with internet access). The question was, "Should gun manufacturers be held liable .....etc."

When I voted, the vote results came up as follows:

Total Votes: 14736
Yes votes: 1197 (8%)
No Votes: 12950 (88%)
Sometimes: 598 (4%)

Cast your vote!
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:07:46 (EST) 

Ken :)

NoVaShooter <Ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:32:28 (EST) 

CG
Curious George
emerald, WA USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:34:51 (EST) 

There's a article here at Sniper Country just for you.
Click onto (ARTICLES AND COMMENTARY)
Then click on (COMMENTARY)
Now click on (SO YOU WANT TO BE A SNIPER)

It's not going to taste too good, but it's what you're looking for.
And for God's sake, stay in school!!!
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Oh, so cold here, in IL. USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 22:10:29 (EST) 

i GOT KINDA CONFUSED wITH tHE DOUBLE POST, AIN'T NONE OF US GENIUSES, JUST HUNTERS N' SHOOTERS SHARING COLLECTIVE WISDOM AND EXPERIENCES GATHERED IN THE FIELD, DUDE!

un-DUDE: Once you get "Varget'ed", I doubt you'll go back, EVER!
Sweatshops, HA! Gooch has got to have plenty of free time on his hands, and everybody knows West Virginians are good at manual labor! That banjo plucking toughens the fingers FAST.

Barry, Go!-Baby!-Go! Now you're tracking that Cold Barrel Shot!
 

Jeff A,
Bubba get you? You been cooped up with Babs again? Got any of the Hornady 178's yet? ANSWER ME!!!

Pat(MrBullet) ibid Hornady 178's? pLEASE?

X-ring: Attempting "conversion" in AM when I can clearly read instruction manual! :-o

Chao for Now, Dudes

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-GAwD USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 22:14:20 (EST) 

After cruising thru some of the other sites SC has links to, I see that drag bags aren't cheap !!! Why not use a military drop bag and save yourself some $$$$$$ ?? I think Brigade Quartermaster has them for about $40 and then you can modify to suit your needs. I suppose if your dragbag has to perform double duty and be a shooting mat also then you might have a problem but ...over at Ft Benning they have some at "Ranger Rags" (surplus store) and they run $15-25. Made of canvas, heavy canvas, and has a felt inner padding. Just a thought, may not be as "cute - high speed" as some of those bags but it darn sure works !!
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Awake in, AL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 04:14:26 (EST) 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 06:36:33 (EST) 

You foreign guys out there just don't understand the current America.
It's not what we "DO" that counts, it's what we "SAY" about what we do that counts...
It didn't count that we messed up in Somalia... we felt their (the Somalians) PAIN! (but somehow, not the pain of our own military).
And when we bomb an aspirin factory... it's important to understand that our leader "Feels their pain"... as he gives the workers an "Excedren Headache!"
And as the bombs fall on the Muslems, kneeling in prayer, our fearless leader, "Feels their pain", and must show respect.

"It's not personal, it's just business.", just like his love life.

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 07:11:33 (EST) 

Bill R,
Good Post and well said you didn't beat up on him but he should have gotten the idea.

Torsten & Paul
You two should work as a team for the "Policically correct". Torsten could do the releases and Paul you could explain them!! That way all of us misguided and misunderstood "Red Neck Gun Owners" could be accepted by the "Policically correct public".

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 07:55:32 (EST) 

peteR: I don't have any production models ready yet but you can make your own at home. Get an Army duffel bag (the cotton one, not the new nylon type) and about 5 pounds of molybdenum disulfide (pharmaceutical grade). Put the duffel bag in your clothes dryer, dump in the moly and turn it on. The permanent press cycle works best since it has a "cool-down" period like the Brady Bill. Man, I'm gonna be rich! Hope this doesn't double post.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 08:07:12 (EST) 

If a sniper tries to shoot the weapon out of a hostage takers hand, there are several possible outcomes:

1) The gun is hit, and the hostage taker is overwhelmed by SWAT-people and nobody gets hurt big time. Not very likely.

2) The gun is hit, but due to the impact the gun fires and the hostage or a third party is hurt big time. Possible.

3) The rifle bullet hits the hand of the criminal, passes through bone and flehs and carries on at around 2300 fps and may hit somebody else. Also the criminal can still shoot wth the other hand. Very possible.

4) The sniper misses the hand ans criminal totally, but the passing bullet and sonic boom of it causes unvoluntary reflection in the criminal, his gun goes bang and the situation ends in full shoot out. This outcome most probably has happened many times.

I think that the threat to hostages and third parties are too big, when a sniper tries to shoot the gun out of a criminals hand. Therefore this method should never be an official tactic. A sniper may choose to use it, but only if he really knows how to do it. In the end he must live with the consuquences. Last but not least, if somebody is so big threat that he can be shot legally, then the sniper should try to maximize his stopping power and aim to more effective body parts than a weapon or hand.

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 08:35:34 (EST) 

Several days past, I mentioned the use of 175 Sierra MK's in my machine rest. Sorry that I didn't back up the good results of those bullets with a load. Since the loads were not mine, I can take no credit for the superb accuracy.

As stated, the barrel was a 1 in 13" .298 - .3065 Krieger. The chamber was Obermeyer. The OAL in each case 2.80" to conform with Palma rules. The first ten shots were from 1992 Palma cases, Federal 210M primers and 45 grains VV N-140 (non-moly). The second ten were in Rem. BR brass, Rem. 71/2 BR primers and, again, 45 grains of VV N-140 (non-moly). Both groups were little knots (1 1/4") at 500 yards. The first ten shots were not chronographed but the the second ten produced deviations well under 10. This last load was used by a friend at Cedar Springs, Ont. on labor day and a 900M comparison was made with the Sierra 155 Palma. The 155 Palma bullet, with a comparable load, used about two minutes less elevation at that distance. For those interested in Varget, the classic load for the 155 seems to be 45.3 grains. The VV N-140 load at about 46 grains.

I note considerable interest here with the Hornady bullets. While
I've only tested 168 and 180 light mag factory loads, it was superb
in the above mentioned barrel. In a Hart barreled 1 in 10" twist
M-700, this ammunition did not produce good results. Whether this
was due to twist or internal dimensions of the barrel, I haven't a clue.

Just some pre-breakfast Friday morning musing.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SE, IL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 09:24:41 (EST) 

All are great products. But as you pointed out, they are not cheap. On the other hand they do have unique features that would be hard to duplicate from scratch, the least being the quality of the stitching. By the time you were done, you might find the money invested was equal to the price of one of these bags! That being said, you can make a drag bag with a little effort. It ain't all that tough. Home built units usually lack external and internal pockets for storage of gear, but they do serve their primary role well, that of transporting the sniper rifle across rough terrain. What you get with a quality commercial drag bag purchased from a reputable company is a well constructed piece of gear that will last a lifetime. It will have a lot of well thought out features that allow you (especially police snipers) to store everything you need for a call out or short duration mission in one well organized sack. These bags are far superior to a padded canvas sock or a modified gun case. They ain't cheap...but in consolation, you do get what you pay for.

Commercial bags give you two basic choices. A simply and sturdy bag to transport the weapon, OR an elaborate back pack that will allow you to transport the weapon in addition to all the ancillary gear - food, scope, tripod, ammo, binos, water, ad nausea. You have to decide what you need before the final purchase. Humping a ruck and a drag bag is perfectly acceptable, but sometimes having a bag that can carry it all while leaving your hands free to carry a carbine or navigate mountainous terrain is pretty nice too. For police, having it all in one organized bag sure beats the heck out of taking the weapon in a hard case and having all the other gear in a separate carry all. One thing that does not work: using a basic drag bag as a carry all. There is no simple way to attach all the gear you would like to bring along to a bag with out extra compartments. You just can not have it both ways. Stuffing the gear in the main compartment with the rifle is also problematic as it can shift and beat the rifle up pretty good. For example, sticking your spotting scope in with the rifle is asking for trouble. Tying it outside just gets it lost. You NEED that external cargo pocket.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 10:01:00 (EST) 

a most excellent post, please let us know when you get some Hornadys (and time) to play with them! Your input would be a most valuable asset to us shooting pilgrims.

Paul H.
It Worked, It Really worked! Drag bag is now moly coated, so are uniforms, WIFEY'S UNDIES, my underwear, socks, kids clothes, We're now a genuine High Speeeeed/Loooooow Drag kinda family! THANKS DUDE!

Sarge, snowed in? Was ist los?
 

Time to trade the Banjo for a snow shovel 6"plus on ground n still going.

Torsten, You Da'Spin Doktorr. I have no doubts, Billy Bob can use you!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SNOW CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 11:47:39 (EST) 

Any information that you could give me on this rifle would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your time in this manner,

Walt Hucks
Walt Hucks <awhucks@hotmail.com>
Winston-Salem, NC USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 12:24:59 (EST) 

How would you recommend bedding this one gun (in hopes of getting it t shoot with a reasonable torque setting)?

Thanks for any info.
JPinTX
JPinTX <pruett@inu.net>
Lufkin, TX USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 14:23:07 (EST) 

No guys I'm NOT snowed in, haven't even SEEN snow so far! In fact was 71 yesterday and 60 today LOVE this weather! Now if the D**M wind would quit! OK on to other things!
The CNN poll is very enlightening everyone that reads the Duty Roster needs to go "vote"!
JR - I couldn't figure out from your post if you use to work for H-S or still do? Anyway I got off the phone with them about 20 minutes ago with some bad news. They don't make stocks of any kind for Savage rifles! That stinks!
Now for some REALLY ROTTEN news - have been going all over town today looking in my 3 different gunshops (have a real big choice don't I!!) looking for someone to give me a good price on a 700VS. All the stores called different suppliers (one place called 3) and all got the same answer - REMINGTON has DISCONTINUED THE 700VS!!! Now that REALLY STINKS!! Anyone else heard this???
Gee anybody out there with some GOOD news!

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 16:04:47 (EST) 

Several years ago in Columbus, Ohio there was a shot fired to disable a firearm. If memory serves me, the guy was sitting on the Statehouse or courthouse lawn in a folding chair. The handgun (looked like a snub) was held in front of him dangling between his legs. At the shot (from about 75 yds), the handgun scattered into many pieces and stung the man's hand. In an interview afterwards, either the sniper, or another sniper said that they routinely shoot .308 casings at 100 yds.

The next time that I was at the 100 yard range, I placed three 308 cases on a 100 yd. target frame. I was in the process of perfecting loads in a 6mm Rem 40-X in a Zelenak aluminum stock. Three shots later……. I was able to recover two of the cases neatly perforated. Still have them. It was a bum custom barrel which never shot better than ¾" groups, so it was just a lucky 3-shot group.

Put a Leupold 24X (first generation) in my deep freezer for about 6 hours the other day. The temp was -20° F. ( -28° C). There was quite a bit of stiction (sp?) on the first attempt to move both elevation and windage knobs, and each jumped about a moa or so. However, once broken free, both knobs responded with tactile and audible clicks that were not very different from those in normal temperatures.
Ron N.
 

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 16:57:23 (EST) 

Sorry I've been so quiet lately. I'm going through a divorce while trying to get moved up to Storm Mountain and my motivation level has been zilch point shit. Add to it that my ex is marrying another person in this field (supposedly a "friend") and its been a real bear. Onward and upward!

I have held off commenting on the shooting guns out of perps hands. Hexa had some very good points. I have found the energy up to partake in this.

First and most obvious question is why would a LE sniper want to shoot a gun out of someones hand? I suppose we could argue back and forth about flacid paralysis not being a sure thing. But you can say the same thing for the fact that the gun might still go off or the sniper might miss (ala hexa's remarks). Bottom line is you still have a maggot hostage taker that will now sue your ass, eat up some correctional facilities budget and probably get out and pull this type of shit again. You have a victim who has to live with the fact that the hostage taker is still out there somewhere maybe seeking revenge or continuing the episode at a later date.

I can group very good on a stationary target, on a firing range when I have control of most everything. But what is the liklihood that I will lose a little group tightener under stress or the gun will move just as I shoot. Pretty good I think.

Men, "In my opinion" don't even entertain this subject if you are a cop. Train for it and leave it in your bag of tricks but don't ever let on to a supervisor that this is an option available to him. Besides, I wonder how many of these incidents were accidental that the sniper involved took credit for as being intentional? Hey it looks good in the press right?

Stick with the high percentage shots. Mark Maguire hit a shit load of homers but how many times did he strike out? Murphy is alive and well. I know. I've met him and his son!

YOu guys that are freezing your scopes...How do they work as ice cubes. That would be cool at a party. Mug of Rum with a M3A sticking out of it. Great conversation starter. Got to watch that eye relief though. You could poke your eye out!

On easing springs with weapons. Always been a habit of mine to drop the hammer when storing a weapon to preserve spring strength. We teach it with Remington based weapons systems. It is also one of the last steps of "inspection arms" in drill and cerimony for this reason. (Had a DI once tell me it was to make sure the weapon wasn't loaded. Jeeeze!)

Whats that? I hear a banjo!! Im a West virginny man!! Yeehaawww.

Guys I love it up there. See, even a old sniper finds a zero every now and then. Ya'll come on up to Storm Mountain ya hear! We'll throw some 'possum on the grill and shoot steel. Got about a 1300 yard shot from the front porch.

See ya,
Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 18:53:49 (EST) 

The Remington is a single stage trigger as it comes from the factory. There are two, 2 stage trigger systems out on the market that fit the 700 actions with little work. The first is the Jewell this is a great unit that simulates the action of a 2 stage trigger. They are around $250.00 and have a safety.

The other unit is the Medisha. This is a true 2 stage trigger but has no provision for a safety. A Winchester M-70 style safety can be fitted to the rifle's bolt at around $200.00. The trigger sells for around $350.00. This is a great trigger but the expensive way to go.

A factory Warranty Service station for Remington can adjust the trigger and not void the warranty. This is the least expensive way to go but it will still be a single stage trigger.

As for the AR-15 there is good news. Compass Lake Engineering has a two stage unit they install for $80.00. I would not trying to install any of the other 2 stage trigger units unless you have a good understanding of the workings of the AR-15.

Good luck.

Bruce Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jacksonville, FL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 19:37:08 (EST) 

Glad to hear everyone is concerned with my employment, HA! I've been with H-S for a while now, but I am not a stock builder. Have built stocks in the past but now I spend my days as their barrelmaker, just to make sure they can hold their 1/2 moa guarantee up. And they can and do. Anyone headin' down to SHOT in Atlanta make sure to stop by the H-S booth there, got some new toys comin' out, know you'll like 'em.

I told the old man I was on a sniper site, now he's out looking for a computer. He was an Army sniper back in the late '60's early '70's and would like to check up on today's crop. He did ask me to see if anyone out here knew a Ron Beck, he said last time he had talked to him, he was out in the Middle East in a chopper dumpin Arabs off the oil lines and gettin' paid for it so he was pretty sure he wasn't in the states anymore. Craziest SOB he ever met, he says.

Found a little ballistics site, I think I saw someone talking about it here, JBM, like it.

That's all for now, catch ya later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 21:36:12 (EST) 

I wanted to announce to all of you here (especially Savage afficianados) that I am teaming up with Savage to provide a special course this Spring just for Savage shooters.

No, I'm still using the Remington action in my custom-built rifles, but I think you'll all agree that there is no finer out-of-the-box rifle than the Savage Tactical. And topped off with a good scope (Leupold, B&L, or even the Burris), it is a tack driver.

Hope to see you all there. Details will be on our website soon. I'm looking forward to meeting all of you, especially Russ Taylor, a favorite of the folks at Savage.

Drop me a line and I'll tell you more.

Bill

Bill Martin <lodmail@lodtraining.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 21:53:29 (EST) 

Thanks for the HS precision stock info, my PSS is about 2 1\2 years old, perhaps youdid make the stock. From what you say, it does sound like a pain in the rear to install one. I could machine the blocks and adjustment mechinism (I am a welder/machinist) and have one of the guys glass it in (I work at an off shore powerboat manufacturer) but it is probaly not worth it. Just hoping to get away from the "duct tape a rag to it" look.

Does the HS police/M24 stock have a high enough cheek rest for anyone?
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
Southern, California USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 22:15:57 (EST) 

I used A Choate sniper stock this past season in Fullbore "F" Class shooting. This type shooting is done from the ground, off bag and bipod, with scope. Not particularly different from serious work or hunting varmints.

Not much to offer on implanting a removable magazine, but I must say I did like the stock for shooting off the ground with a bipod. Off the bench is a different subject!

The stock that I used was 700 ADL. For a drop-in it was excellent.
Accuracy, as far as I was concerned, was equal to anything that I have. I do recall that I had to make a slight mod. to the accessory hanger in order to fix the particular Harris bipod that I was using and immediately tossed the plastic eared (accessory plate) jamb nut that slipped on the common hex head screw that was issued.

The front end of the sniper stock is not as rigid as I would like for serious work. It seems they left a lot of cooling room in that area at the expense of rigidity. The angle of the butt, from pistol grip to buttplate is roughly on the same plane as the barreled action. This is not good if a quick second shot is necessary, especially off the bench. What I'm saying is that far too much "hunting" is necessary for quick target acquisition. Off hard ground, the threaded elevation pedistal on the bottom of the butt is fine, but in soft ground it would be next to useless. Also, the stock is a bit heavy to use for as a carry rifle.

My stock came with two cheekpieces. One or the other should fill the bill. Also, length of pull and buttplate positing is adjustable to the point that about anyone could fit the stock.

All in all, I was quite pleased for the dollar. If you are considering this stock for varmint hunting, I would offer that Choate has a varmint stock that might be a little more pleasing off the bench. Also, a little more rigid and less angled in the front end. My stock, in the off season, is also used for testing barreled actions. It serves very well for this purpose, and offers a barrel channel large enough for anything I see.

I like it!

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
FROZEN - SE, IL USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 00:17:46 (EST) 

Mostly what I want to say (make that scream!!) is...."ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR F--KING MIND???" For reasons that have already been stated chances for an major "F--k Up" are just too great.

Now that I have that out of my system I can think of a few times when a stunt like this might (that's MIGHT) be worth the risk. Recently I have seen several situations when police were confronted with a mentally disturbed or emotionally distraught individual who was a threat to others only in that they had a weapon that in there confused state might discharge and harm someone. I don't think I care if they happen to shoot themselves but as a law enforcement officer I worry about anyone else within range of their weapon. Some of these individules think thay want to commit suiside but want someone else (a cop) to do it for them. I'm not in this buisness to kill people (even if I am prepared to) and all the backlash (personal, profesional and legal) from an action like that could be overwelming.

So...If, under the circumstances described above, a shot could be taken that would have an almost perfect chance of success, where there was no chance of harm to anyone else (IE: where is the shot going after it strikes the gun?) and there is no other reasonable or likely safe solution then I would consider taking that shot....BUT....I still wouldn't like it!

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Finelly Thawing Out in, Snow Crusted West Virginia USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 11:26:16 (EST) 

Just today got the screw up fixed on the home pc. Software was corrupt, Defragged: then compresssed, and then we did stuff to the pc. Har de har har.. Anyway, I was having a bad case of acute "Roster Jones" and was about to start having seizures when the problem got fixed. I got some Hornady 178 and 168gr for the 308, but haven't tested any yet. What's really good is that my order of Berger bullets came this past Wed. ,you know, the one I placed last Sept.

Work has jipped me out of some valuable shooting time. Well, shit happens . When I do tests with the 178, I'll blabber about it. Matter of fact, I've a bunch of testing for 308 I want to do.

Bubba ran of with Barbara and they both joined the Peace corp. May they both rott in Rawanda. Anyway, I just unlimbered back-up Barbara so I'll be okay.

Pat:

Well, N140 justs doesn't quite cut it in 260 with 140gr. Accuracy is good, but not as good as Varget and N160. Plus I think I started seeing some pressure signs at 39.0 gr. Looked like some primer flattening and some cratering. Hey, if got wome data ,please let me know.

Steve (nato): You nailed me...that was just too funny. Good one.

"I can hear the crincle-crackle of carbon buildup
and the hiss of corrosion from the guns in my safe and I have to get up
and clean them before I can go back to sleep. I clean guns that haven't
been shot in months just because I know they haven't been cleaned
either."
 

Jeff A.
I'll be back.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 11:30:22 (EST) 

On shooting the gun out of the hand. Bad, bad idea. Lawyers begin to salivate. Sets a real bad precedence. About the only case this would make sense is a case of attempted "suicide by cop." If the perp is not threatening anyone but himself, I suppose this could be considered, but the reality is that it only takes a wave of his weapon to be threatening someone else. Real fine line there. No happy answer! Everyone loses. I'd agree that the best advice is to never bring it up as an option!

Split personalities? Easy, aim for the Left brain! ;-)
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 14:12:49 (EST) 

Now, were did I put those sun glasses?
scott <xring...>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 14:21:37 (EST) 

Contact Depity Dave for further info and pricing. Buy this thing. Between him, STMC, Wal-Mart and Sheetz Gas stations, they represent the total gross "national" product of West Virginny!
Scott <me again.>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 14:25:54 (EST) 

Reference your comment, "there is no finer out-of-the-box-rifle than the Savage Tactical".

You've got to be kidding me!

First of all, the trigger is crap. It falls out of adjustment after less than 100 rounds, unless you use ample amounts of 5 minute epoxy on the screws. That usually gives you another 200-400 rounds between trigger adjustments. Thats efficient.

The stock forearm is about as rigid as a piece of Saran Wrap. When you do pull it out of the box, you've got to pull it out of the stock and route the barrel channel out so the barrel doesnt make contact. Even after you clear the barrel channel out, you have to fill the forearm with some type of stiffening compound such as bisonite or devcon to get some forearm rigidity.

And if its such a "fine" rifle, why dont you build your company rifles based on Savage actions?

gunplumr <gunplumr@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 18:30:29 (EST) 

Hang on here hos'. The Savage may not be the "finest out-of-the-box" tactical rifle Billy says but its no reason to get hostile! And IMHO, I own 4 Savages everything from a .22LR LV, a 110FP in .308 to a 112FV in .22-250 and a 110FM in .308, they are as good OUT OF THE BOX STOCK no work of any kind, as any other manufacturer out there. Yes the trigger needs work - but I've never had ANY of the triggers "fall out of adjustment" on any of my Savages after I don't know how many rounds! And as far as the stock forearm being "rigid as a piece of Saran Wrap" I don't know again I have 4 and NONE of them has any problem with the forearm touching the barrel! In fact all four of these guns shoot better than I can - and I shoot pretty well! I've also had Remingtons, Rugers and Winchesters that I didn't find all that accurate either. In fact had one Remington .30-06 with a wood stock that had to be bedded before I could get it to hold one (1") groups at 100yds. None of my Savages are bedded!
Well here we go Savage bashing again!

Sarge retires!
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 18:56:34 (EST) 

Sarge

Sarge <yea...yea>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 19:02:44 (EST) 

If any of you snot nosed kids want to test me, we can have a shoot off where you shoot your chandlers, lous and what ever else and I will shoot my stone stock Savage .243. Any takers?
Chuck Taylor <ct@asi.org>
Ristour, Texas USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 19:14:10 (EST) 

I get home from work, and all hells broken loose on the duty roster,

Jeff A. surgically removed from the PC without anesthetic, and likeing It! BUBBA AND Bab's in Rwanda, (Marius BE VERY AFRAID!)

Savage owners coming "out of the closet" by the magazineful!

A city of brotherly loves most misbegotten, talking poorly of By-Gawd and the best school on the east coast. Course that why they're yanking IRS from Philly to by-gawd, brotherly love, yeah right

Depity GOES BESERK! news at 11:00

Sarge having a problem procuring a simple old Remington 700 VS while defending the Hide, Missus and Jr. from soda cans. I hear Schumer is trying to pass a law limiting possesion to one six pack a month along with that PA. guncontrol dirthead (uh-X-RING, whats his name?)

Mike M crying in a puddle of blood from hand stitching slings for two weeks straight. :-o

and good old El Alacron throwing in the gauntlet too!

DUUUUUUDDDDDDEEEEESSS! TAKE A CHILL!

things could be worse

I spent my entire day teaching CPR to missionaries going to Haiti!

chao and CHILL!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
NOW-BOYS....., bY-gAwD USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 22:03:30 (EST) 

How long's it been, good buddy? Manila, a bottle of Rum, and some b-girls at the "cabaret", wasn't it? That's about all I can say here, but it was good to get "back in the world" after that tour, man.

I may not agree with you on your choice of "best" trainer, but I do agree with you on the Savage. Shit hot. And if you don't have $3,000 for my rifle, it's the way to go. Even a sub-gun man like you can agree, Chuck.

Bill Martin
President, Line of Departure Training Associates

Bill Martin <lodmail@lodtraining.com>
Houston, USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 00:22:00 (EST) 

I leave you Dudes alone for a couple of days and you start dreaming again.

Slope Doper now that is another great idea. Everyone should get one.

We all should go to Storm and get some real training. Until then go to the range and practice, practice, practice.

It's good to hear from Mr.L.O.D. I have heard great things about your rifle but maybe you could explain to the UnDude how you came up with the design of the stock. I am not being a S..A.. I just have used H.S and McMillians for years and wonder why yours is so bulky. It looks very well made.

Back to slings. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 00:59:46 (EST) 

Can you say post lunar phase episodes, can ya? ;-)

NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, is worse than Washington, D.C. Cuckoo's nest Ha, we eat them for an appetizer before that "Asphalt aged" grilled posssum Gooch was talking about.

Gee Golly Gosh,

Methinks maybe we need a OEM "Sniper rifle shoot out" to end this mines better than yours issue. What say you gentlemanly types out there?

like uh?

US Domestic Mfg only; Remington 700, Win. 70, "R" whatsit called" and SAV'AGES too.

.308 caliber/.223 caliber only.

cold barrel shots measured from POA to outside edge?

five round groups (c.t.c. or ?) 100, 300, 500, 700 yds?

five-reload-five (timed fire)

long range "best group" five rounds

just a thought, build on it dudes!

Chao for now,

gotta howl at the moon some more AAAAA-OOOOOOHHHHHH!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 09:03:20 (EST) 

US Domestic Mfg only; Remington 700, Win. 70, "R" whatsit called" and SAV'AGES too.

I would add...

A - Factory BBls, factory stocks, after market triggers. You can
re-bed, or glass bed
No sighters or fowlers. You take it outa' the case, you shoot it.
Rifles bbls must be completly wet cleaned "before" each
group or section is fired.
B - .308 caliber/.223 caliber only.

Sniper Match
1 - 1 shot each on five targets at unknown ranges... 400mtrs to
1000mtrs, scored = sum of inchs POA to shot on 5 targets-low wins.
Range w/Mil-dots... (NO laser rangfinders)

Rifle Accuracy Match
2 - TEN round groups (5, clean it, 5) c.t.c. 300, 600, 1000mtrs?
Groups measured widest shots, scores from POA to outside edge?
3 - Five-reload-five @ 600mtrs. Score/time

You guys down on the mountain readin' this... how 'bout an east coast match to give dem bums out west a reason to come East.
(Shooters must bring their own 'possum, range supplies the charcoal)

Pablito
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:00:20 (EST) 

( Sniper Country Council Webmaster )
Due to the fact that the content and spirit of this post does not fall within the SMALL number of rules contained at the top of this page it has been removed.

The rules referred to are: "... include insults, or are provocative without reason will be removed"

gunplumr <gunplumr@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:03:36 (EST) 

I calle Johnny Plaster after I saw you last letter. He will be comming out of retirement at Gunsite and is going to shoot some competitions this year.

Hope to see you at the SHOTSHOW. It is going to be a good one. We can catch up on some black ops stuff.
Chuck Taylor <ct@asi.org>
Ristour, TX USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:11:12 (EST) 

I don't have a problem with .308 to 700 yards, but everyone knows the poor little .223 won't make it that far.

My old ham radio buddy Bill R. could handle the stats. Sounds like he stays home on Saturday night. Is S.W. Kansas as boring as S.E. IL
on Saturday night, Bill?
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Frozen - SE, IL USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:46:37 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:50:22 (EST) 

****************************************************

Female Interviewer: " So, Mr. Jones, what are you going to do with these
children on this adventure holiday?"

Mr. Jones: " We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and
shooting."

Female Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"

Mr. Jones: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range."

Female Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous
activity to be teaching children?"

Mr. Jones: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline
before they even touch a firearm."

Female Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

Mr. Jones: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you're not one, are
you?"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 12:00:46 (EST) 

Torsten:
That was a great story about the female interviewer, I already told a few people and they loved it. I don't know where you find these stories but I look forward to them. Thanks.

gunplumr: Settle down guy, this is supposed to be fun.

Mike M:
The same thing happened in Chicago yesterday Mike. Two cops, partners, were shot. One was wounded the other died. What the hell is going on out there? I'll bet my life savings that they'll find out the two murderers are out on bail or released early from prison. The politicians will never ask "Why were these guys free to commit more crimes?" but they will call for more gun control.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:25:26 (EST) 

Things are still at a slow pace here in all the ice and snow.
Too old, fat, and lazy to go ice fishing or Coyote hunting, so
still cruising and musing.

This may be old hat to some of you, but in scrolling through old posts to this list, I came across an interesting topic....first shots in a clean barrel, with moly-coated bullets.

My first serious attempt to use moly was in 1997. Just prior to heading for the Canadian Nationals, I spent an afternoon playing with bullets dry coated with moly, and bullets that were greased with moly enhanced grease. A very interesting test at 200 yards with chronograph running.

With a clean and dry barrel the velocities climbed slowly for 5-7 shots with dry moly. Reversing the operation to clean bullets after moly didn't indicate any appreciable difference in velocities. With pre-greasing the bore lightly, with moly enhanced grease, the velocities were right there from the git-go.

I confirmed this to my satisfaction this past Labor Day at Cedar Springs, Ont. We were shooting at 900M in individual competition and switched to a team match for the final shoot of the day. I made the switch to moly-coated bullets from shooting clean ones. Elevations were horrible for at least the first five rounds!

Since that first bench test I've kept all my barrels greased and waiting. Not only for that first good shot, but to also preserve
the several CM barrels that require ongoing protection.

I would sure be interested in hearing from others that have done such playing.

The moly-enhanced grease refered to is nothing other than readily available moly-grease that has been mixed with powdered moly to the point that it is quite dry, but still may be applied to a patch.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
FROZEN - SE, IL USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:40:28 (EST) 

Sorry to hear about the shootings out there Mike. Maybe you'll get a chance to shoot the gun out of the bad guys hands! Yeah right. Hold tight and don't anticipate!

Any of you guys into Rock und Roll need to check out the Ted Nugent "Spirit of the Wild" CD. A couple of titles are "I shoot back", "Kiss my Ass", "Fred Bear", etc. Its a real mellow album to listen to while you read the News Paper these days.

Take it easy guys. Relax, breath in annnd ouuuut. There we go. chill out.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:41:44 (EST) 

There is one glaring problem with it -- it has the worst magazine setup I have ever used. I'm not talking about the rather strange release system with a latch on either side, but the way it jams so easy when inserting a magazine. If not slowly inserted level with the well, it will lock into place with the magazine angled down in the front about 5 degrees. A rap on the bottom does not seat it fully, and if I try to chamber a round that way the point jams into the front of the well. I feel this is absolutely unsatisfactory for a tactical weapon.

Is there a better magazine system I could switch to, keeping the stock? Or should I just treat it as a BDL that doesn't dump the ammo all over when I unload it?

>All of them shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards
sounds like something from rec.guns, not SC

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:59:33 (EST) 

Mike M.
Sorry at Oaklands loss, send'em dirtbags our way when you're done with them and we'll treat them reel goood........................

Guys, i meant .308 vs. .308/ .223 vs. .223 not apples n oranges crap, THE REAL DEAL, PUT UP OR GET OUTTA HERE, REPLETE WITH ROBINS EGG BLUE PUMPS IF YA GOT'EM!

DUDES KEEP POSTING IDEAS, ITS GETTING BETTER WITH THE GREAT INPUT!

CHAO!

PETEr
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 14:14:48 (EST) 

Not to bust on you Jim. Like it says at the top of the duty roster, look into the "Cold shots and hot tips" and the articles/commentary section before you ask a semi-standard question like this. The guys and I dont mind answering questions but after the 4th or 5th time on the same question I tend to blow them off. Sorry, but when we type up a 5 paragraph answer to a question it gets old trying to find it in the word processor or retype it. Thats why Marius and Scott and others are busting their butts to come up with these archive sites. Im sure the site managers have other things to do like change diapers.

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 15:02:47 (EST) 

Thanks
Ken Miller <kmiller2872@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 17:47:40 (EST) 

John Unertl Optical Co.
308 Clay Ave.
Mars, PA 16046-0818

1-412-625-3810

After a large fire, and off the market for a while, they have a full line of scopes, but they won't sell you the military 10x.
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 18:40:28 (EST) 

Gooch, E-mail me with your new address and an EMail that works. I have a new sling for you. I wont to ship several on Monday.

To all thanks for the support. Guy that got it was on the Street for 11 weeks only had kids. All you Military Guys know how this feels but we keep getting shot by the people we are supposed to protect. A brief version is these two guys were just recovering a weapon thrown out a vehicle during a pursuit and were apparently ambushed.\

Now if I could be given the chance to MilDot Master the suspects and check for group size the day would be better.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 19:14:56 (EST) 

My intent was to start small, minimize variables by using domestic produced, and then we could go from there......
Nothing meant against foreign and "best quality" rigs, just grassroots funshoots for all to learn skills from the Zen masters of the UKD zone.

Please guys, lets keep this one rolling and maybe we can turn it into something local, then regional, tomorrow ze vorld! I forsee about 50-100 rounds max. to give everyone a challenge,but get a bunch of folks through an event and happy.

Steve(Nato), A most excellent idea, especially after the Fred Fisher shoot-em up at Storm Mountain with the single shot rifle! Bring on the Dinosaurs, they can shoot in the right hands!

Dudes,

Together we can make it happen!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAWD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 20:01:41 (EST) 

Gentlemen, Gentlemen Have we leave of our senses or is it a full moon out tonite. I don't think so! So we all must be Frickin' crazy.

peteR: AwRight! Moly coated undies. I love it! But does that mean they won't stick to the ceiling after a victory throw in the bedroom. Oh well!! And just think, my frilly undies won't have those unsightly skid marks on them any more. I can probably get another three or four more weeks out of them without changing.

Sarge: You Nasty man. Telling us about the balmy 70 degrees in Roswell, NM Talk about slapping our rosy red cheeks of the boys up north. You should be ashamed - or an alien!!

308. The facfory Remington trigger can be adjusted , but very carefully to a crispy and snappy 3 1/2 pounds. Any lighter you are starting to talk about a trigger such as a Timney, Canjar, or a pricey little number called a Jewell trigger. Follow the instructions to the letter of B. Rogers. The explanation is excellent simply excellent.

Jeff: Bubba of the Smyrna Swamp and Barbara the Nailer. Oh bummer for the people of Rwanda. But it leaves you free to pursue Fluffy the Floozy. Just take her out of the closet, inflate, rub a little Rem Oil in the appropriate location and you are GTG. I'm also waiting for several boxes of 178 grainer Hornady (in your case (Horny - Day) bullets. I will be loading them up and when the weather breaks a little up here I will be down at the range. Alright so I'm a Pansy. But a warm one sitting with my criminally beautiful wife in front of a romantic fire. AaaaHhhhh!

Chuck Taylor: So are you related to Russ Taylor? How do you feel about Rugers in general? I applaude you for being the three different wars - must have been the Civil War, Indian Wars and the Spanish-American War. I was only in one "conflict." - without our "El Presidente."

Sarge (again) Savage bashing: New triggers can be installed on the 110 and 112 Series Savages. That will make you group size get even better. As far as practicality goes, the ugly knob at the end of the barrel is the most logical and stress free way of attaching a barrel to a receiver. I'll still take my Sako action - Douglas barreled - McMillan stocked paper punch.

Lets try to remember folks that we are highly in-telly-gent gents and a have a great deal of ed-ju-ma-ka-shun (Gooch thats West Virginny talk for smarts). Like my poor ol' grandma used to say (God rest her soul) Opinions are like asshole - everybody has one. Lets try and respect each others assholes.

Gooch: How about a good e-mail address so I can relay some things about the OGCA show in March. Lot of good news bout that - if you are still interested with Rod.

Talk to me fellas

al

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Taking a Chill Pill here in the Sunny Chill of Northern , O-Hi-Er USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 21:06:40 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 22:46:04 (EST) 

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 22:53:38 (EST) 

I know that the M24 is not OEM but our monthly range days are next week and if the format is set by then, my boys and I would like to play.
One limitation: Max range for us is 735m.
Ammo would be M852.

This sounds like a hoot. I think we would get thumped, but some of us need a lesson in what real shooting is, NOT just knocking over a E-type on a pop up mechanisim.
 
 
 

Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Grevious, Salivating Korea - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 02:21:28 (EST) 

Gooch: I feel your pain buddy, my 1st wife left me for my shooting buddy as well. The divorce cost me most of my guns, I think that hurt worse in the long run than her leaving.
 

Deputy Dave: My heart goes out to guys,and I'm afraid it's going to get a whole lot worse as we get closer to Y2K.

A bad day shooting beats a good day working!

John
JohnS <jrscar@codenet.net>
BroncoMania, Colorado USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 03:36:05 (EST) 

My shooting is terrible at the moment:-) I tried a real biathlon-track for the first time this weekend. Skis, Anschutz .22 straightpull, etc. The track was 7.5km with 5 shots prone at 2.5km and 5 shots standing at 5km. I got 2 out of 5 prone and 2 out of 5 standing... Runningtime is classified + 6 minutes penalty. Junior shooters, girls and boys, used me as a pylonmarker out on the track. Very sobering.

Torsten: You've got to try this...( don't bet with anyone!)
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 04:18:00 (EST) 

John Unertl Optical Co.
308 Clay Ave.
Mars, PA 16046-0818

1-412-625-3810
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 05:31:56 (EST) 

Both my fiance and myself are trained snipers and I just want to thank you for a very informative page and keep up the professional work !!!!
 
 

Kobus Du Toit <kobus@ats.sani.org>
Pretoria, Gauteng South Africa - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 06:39:10 (EST) 

I know what you mean, I have not tried it on ski´s, but I have signed up for our Reserve State Championship team and trained with them.
Summerbiathalon is the killer, no downhill coasting.
We shoot with a G-3 with a Platic training bolt to fire 7,62 Platic Training Ammo at 25 Meters, at a Bullseye Target.

I just scrubbed my being Instructor in a April Sniper Class, if I want to go to SMTC in the Summer I will have to hold back on my Reserve days.

Russ Taylor, if you still check in here E mail me, I lost your home mail adress !

Now who is all going to be in Atlanta for the SHOT SHOW ?
 
 

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 07:49:34 (EST) 

neat posting on biathalon shooting, while sipping my morning expresso latte' and scrolling the newspaper I darn near choked on my biscotti.

see http://www.adn.com/
page 1 USMC troops doing Biathalon outside of Anchorage, AK.

My high school Alma Matter town, sigh, brought back memories of setting spring snares and Malaysian death traps (sans spikes)for the high school X-country ski team. Now it wasn't done for malice they weren't elitist or anything like that, we just wanted to give them "an edge" when they competed.

sNnot Tellin 
gee-gosh So of us are just civilians DUDE! Not all readers are military or law enforcement officers. I agree with the serious business, if you have to drop a hammer/striker/firing pin/Piezo electric ignitor switch on a hostile target.

REALITY CHECK, What percentage of the civilian population will do this terrible, terrible act? (Thats your local prosecutor-plaintiff lawyer after you've made the shot, had the internal investigation, the pre-requisite civil rights violation lawsuit and once again sit in court)

How about it members of the military and L-E community? anybody been there done it?

Most of us calm-tranquil-good natured folks just want to learn as much as we can and improve our shooting skills.

as is fast becoming the catch phrase in by-gawd, Chill Dude!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF @AOL.COM>
WARM INSIDE TODAY, bY-gAwD USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 09:32:45 (EST) 

Sarge; It's one thing to shoot a good group and another to hit a soda can at 200 meters! One is bench groupin and the other is good shootin.

Pat;I've got 3 out of the box remingtons that are guaranteed not to shoot 1/2" every time. As I've said in the Archives. If your gun shoots 1" one time and 3" the next you have a 3" gun not a 2" er.
If it shoots under 1" 99 percent of the time it's close to a 1" gun.
That included the first shot out of the cold barrel by the way!

That Skiing business reminds me a combination shoot I had once where any rifle,pistol,mg,or combination thereoff could be used. I'll spare you details of the course but you had to move very quickly for about 150 yards and end the match by double tapping a cardboard stationary sillouete at 75 yards and then hit a time stop plate at 15 yards (both from a barrel lying on it's side on the ground). 20 guys shot with all kinds different guns and when it was over there were 4 holes patched in the sillouete and 1/3 were disqualified because they couldn't hit the 6" stop plate before they ran out of time. You laugh!But...
 
 
 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 10:39:12 (EST) 

Barry

Barry Chance <Barry_Chance@maxtor.com >
Longmont, Co USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 11:10:09 (EST) 

On the age old Savage issue. I'll reiterate some comment's from months ago. The Tactical is a fairly capable rifle, given it's limitations. A new stock is certainly in order. I do not care who says otherwise. That factory stock, while serviceable in the most basic manner, is not up to speed for real tactical environments. NOR was not meant to be! The pillars helped to be sure. But it is by no means hard-use capable. Further, the rifle may shoot well with the stock at the rifle range or on limited field outings - target plinking and prairie doggin'. But the barreled action is capable of better and static bench shooting is not the same as shooting in the field from oddball positions. Most rifles in the right hands can shoot well off the bench. Given true field conditions, with stresses applied to the fore end, goo in the works and ugly condition abounding, bad things can happen. Even to QUALITY after market stocks, which the factory 110FP stock is not. God forbid you used a tight sling hold if that is your particular preference. You will pull the fore end all over the place. A beefier stock can only improve things.

Savage uses the stock it does to provide you with an affordable decently accurate rifle. Where they to install a stiffer higher quality unit, the retail price would be raised accordingly and this would put them in line with some of the higher dollar factory rifles - which would move them out of the market they currently have - a lucrative market they enjoy. Some conjecture: Savage smartly considers their reputation, deserved or otherwise. They see that a $600 dollar 110FP with a top notch stock can not compete with an equally priced brand X due to Perception. They then choose to keep the status quo and sell gobs of rifles with the stock they currently have. Why? Because for the current price, it sells. Ron Coburn is a good businessman. He ain't stupid. I think of the 110FP in these terms: a good barreled action waiting for the right stock. If you buy one, just consider that factory stock a gimme. It came free with the action. Replace it when you can afford to, or shoot it as is if all you do is plink.

I can not speak about the Savage trigger issue as I have not played with it enough, but there will be good after market units soon. For a guy stuck on a limited budget, you can not beat the 110FP, or 10FP. They shoot well and are upgradeable. Would it be my fist choice if I had unlimited funds? No. Not today at my age and income level, but if I were 22 and fresh out of school, looking for an accurate rig to play with, certainly. But until I beg borrow or steal a Savage and live with it in a field environment for weeks, I can not discount it wholesale. If some of you have done so, and I mean REALLY used the thing in the field (be it in training or police work), please comment here on you experiences. I do not care about this range-shot group or that one. I do not care if you think it is the cats me-effing-yow. I want details on real field use, in weather, mud, rain, and crud. Dragging it around. Dinging steel (or gray matter) from 75 to 1000 yards. Ideal range conditions do not apply on Sniper Country. If the 110FP has held up well under those conditions, in completely stock form, we need to hear it. My guess is that it could not due in part to the stock. But I would be happy to be proved wrong! I have no beef with the big S as a company and believe they fill a niche. And more power to Coborn. He has really brought that company around.

To give credit where it is due: I have fired a friends 7mm Magnum with an after market stock that would hold an HONEST .7 moa group in all conditions tested. No BS once in a life time group. I fired smaller groups with this rifle, in the .4 to .5 range, but the group average was .7moa. No bullshit benchrest 200 yard groups. Just honest performance.

I have repeatedly heard other posters on this site say that they have Savages (and other brands!) that will shoot ½ moa or less at 200 yards and beyond. Sure, we have all done that. But every day, day in and day out? In REAL conditions? I seriously question the validity of such a statement. Especially when worded to appear as though every one of this or that persons personal rifles will do this, or that this or that brand will do this. Those kind of statements bother me because when coming from someone who sounds like he knows his stuff, or is known to be an authority, novices will run out and buy something based on that opinion. They in turn are greatly disappointed when reality hits. Worse, they may come to believe that their skill can never be good enough because they can never match this mythical goal. And there is the rub. Wild claims can be made. They can help improve ones standing or reputation. They can certainly sell a product. But the real loser is the reader or prospective buyer who may not know any better. In the end, making claims of this nature is a disservice to the people one intends to help or inform. It can be interpreted as a way of keeping oneself ahead of the pack if you get my drift.

To sum it all up: There ain't no magic bullet. Rifles are only as good as the shooters behind them. Hype is meaningless in the field. Buyer beware. You get what you pay for. Don't believe everything you read. And finally, the meaning of the universe is 42…42 what? I just don't know.

Now play nice. But tell it straight.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 13:28:39 (EST) 

Well said Sir!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The "Balmy" Ozark boonies, MO USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 14:00:18 (EST) 

Unfortunately, due to too many reasons, I do not have the time lately to read the Duty Roster - but it will be chaning in the very near future. As such I do not perform my duties to the fullest of my abilities, for which I have to apologise. I just surgically removed some posts ( partially ) from the Roster, most noticeably that from "gunplumr" dated Janaury 10, after receiving an email advising me of the offensive nature of this specific post.

The Duty Roster IS a place for FUN, and SHARING OF INFORMATION, NOT, and I repeat NOT, for PERSONAL ATTACKS on other people, be they visitors to Sniper Country or not. If you disagree with a poster on some/all of his/her comments, and feel that a personal attack is in order, by all means do so, BUT NOT ON THIS ROSTER, or anywhere on this site. Address a personal email to the party/parties involved, and vent as much as you like, if you really have to do so.

Even better. Write such an email, venting all you want - and then send it to an invalid address with an invalid return address. You will have vented your anger or whatever without incurring the wrath of somebody else, most probably unnessarily in any case, and you will not receive a return.

I hope I will not have to address this issue again.

All the best, and keep them straight on target.

Marius

PS Big Sniper: Kid, I suggest you read the intro to this site, and also your email.
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 15:45:40 (EST) 

I got this Marlin see. Its a 30-30 and I can get 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. Does anyone make a taper'd scope mount for a 30mm tube for it. I'm think'n bout a Schmidt-Bender for it. Can you pillar bed lever action. Does LOD make a stock for it?

Bob Dweeble
Lil Rock Arkansas

I'm almost out of here fellers!

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 15:46:48 (EST) 

Marius

===========

Son,

I only saw your post on the Sniper Country Duty Roster just now. I do not live in the United States, but the site does reside there. And, as far as I can understand, the sort of information on this site is not supposed to be for people of your age. If you showed sense I most probably would not even have bothered mailing you, but I am afraid you didn't show such in your post to the Duty Roster.

Watching the movie "Sniper" so often? Not that I believe 9 million times a day, more like once a week maybe. Even then - WHY? Do you know what it is to kill? Not to kill like a normal soldier in war would - firing at the enemy and hoping to kill some, but searching out ONE SPECIFIC TARGET, and WATCHING THAT PERSON DIE?!? I doubt it!! It is not good, not good at all. IT IS UGLY, VERY UGLY, and you have to live with yourself for the rest of your life with that thought, seeing that face. Did he/she have a spouse? Children? Was there some loved one somewhere? Now waiting for him/her never to return?

I suggest you go away from Sniper Country, and only return when you have come to your senses, but only after you've read the following article on the site:
An SC Article

Seriously, you need to get your priorities right, or you're going to cause your parents great grief.

Sincerely

Marius

===============
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 16:09:32 (EST) 

I have some .308 BR brass which has had the primer pockets "uniformed" with the Whitetail tool. Occasionally I'm getting missfires, and even a second strike won't set it off. Dismantling the cartridge shows an unfired primer.

It always seemed to me the tool removes too much material. I usually set firing pin protrusion to about .052 to .055" in the Rem bolt rifles. Is this enough? What are your thoughts on the matter? Do you use the same depth for both small and large primers?

I know that I'm not going to use it anymore if my protrusion depth is in the normal range.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 20:18:52 (EST) 

If the primers are recessed more than about 5 thou, and the primer indents are shallow, the pockets are too deep!
If the primers are flush, and the indents are shallow, the cases have the sholders back too far... too much head space on the cases, not the rifle! Put two or three layers of scotch tape on the case head and close the bolt, you should feel more resitance if the cases are ok for headspace.
Also check the primers... I have about a dozen "fired" missfired primers on a shelf that had no pellets in them.

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 20:51:27 (EST) 

Fred, Old Dino Dudester, they can shoot, I know, I watch Quigley down under 30 times a day......... ;-)

Gooch,
Its Yo! Yo! Go Boy! to Marius, sleep deprivation finally made him crack. I agree Marius, but is it spankings, or the more politically correct "time out"? Go-Go-Go-Boy!

Pat (mrbullet) and Bill R.
Right Said Guys!

Ed Engler, maybe we can cobble something together for ya soon.

Scott, FYI; the Local Sheetz is now selling Partagas cigars at the counter so the By-Gawd economy must be getting better. :-o

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
FUNCITY -HEE-HEE, bY-gAwD USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 21:15:38 (EST) 

Maybe I'm being a little nit-picky, but if you are going to post something and you feel some people may not agree with you - have enough "balls" to write something down other than "i'm not gonna tell you." or some even more inane. Stand up for your convictions whether they are right or wrong. Damn boy, its not like we are going to come over and burn your garage down. I just don't have the time or the inclination.

This post does offer me a great deal of escape from the pressures of every day life. My wife understands this and leaves me alone (most of the time) when I am reading the Duty Roster. Some times she even has some feminine input, rather than just seeing eveything from a man's perspective. Being able to converse on an intelligent level with people who have the same interest as my self - this is a great site.

I'm outta here. Philosophized enuff tonite again!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Sometimes not serious enough in the Grand Dictatorial State of , Ohio USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 21:21:12 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 23:00:27 (EST) 

The chamber is a .308 Obermeyer, GO plus .001". Cases are resized to the minimum amount needed for chambering.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 23:11:28 (EST) 

Listen to the people who are or were snipers, not who acted as one , played make believe on some movie. Sure it seems real and fantastic, but being a sniper is 99.9% mental, and the movies don't show that. They show spectacular shots and kills, and man wouldn't it be cool to do that. But the movies don't show the aftermath, not of the victim or his family, but of the soldier himself. Twenty years after his tour in Vietnam, I was 14 years old, was the first time my father spoke to me of what had happened over there. He slept about 2-3 hours a night if he was lucky, and even then it was like he had never left the war, and that is because the war never leaves you, you never forget. There is NO way to prepare for that experience that no one would wish upon anyone else. The movies will never tell the story that a true sniper can, they will never see it thru their eyes, and never believe that they will.
 

For the rest of ya:

Talked to the old man the other day, just got his deer processed, he says those four legged bastards just aren't sporting enough, he'd rather get himself one of those 10 point non typicals, ten toes up, I think he said we should import some of those dinks, they are much more enjoyable to watch explode in the scope.

Every day's a holiday, folks

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 23:11:51 (EST) 

SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANY DINKS BY USING THE WORD DINK
JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 00:00:56 (EST) 

Can't you tell when you've been had? And by whom? Who's real here and who's not? And what's with the needless and arbitrary editing of posts?

Few "out-of-the-box" guns, short of the Accurary Internation AW series of rifles, are going to be up to the job of military or LE sniping. The Savage Tactical line is a marketing tool to sell you rifles, no different than the 700 PSS, now DM, line. And cheap glass with pot metal rings will fail you when you need them most.

Out here.

P.S. Those who know me, you'll see me in Atlanta, if not sooner. TTFNMFs.
A Voice from the Past <Alas@anon.com>
Not here, Anymore USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 01:12:28 (EST) 

I'm new to this duty roster thingy so bear with me. What's nagging at me is this business about Big Sniper. I have to agree on the age thing. But please, all i ask is that you cut the kid some slack. Everybody's got to have a dream. About the movie: i think you should've busted on the writer/director or whatever of the movie before busting on the Big Sniper. I mean, the kid can't help it that some bozo totally screws up the whole subject of sniping. That's what you guys and his dad are here for. To help him through all that. To set him straight. (When he turns 18 of course). Yeah, i know it's a young age to be considering stuff like that. But kids literally absorb stuff. Now would be the perfect chance to keep him in line about what it's all really about. If he changes his mind, fine. More power to him. If he doesn't, then maybe you guys can help make him a fine fellow marksman.

Other than that, i really admire the communication you guys have here. It's like one big happy family. Kinda makes ya feel a warm and fuzzy inside.

later
Jumoli <jumoli@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 01:48:18 (EST) 

by Paul Ham
Sydney

THEIR muscles may be smaller, their lung power may be
less. But women can be every bit as ruthless as men,
according to the top brass of Australia's armed forces. Last
week they announced plans to let women join combat units.

If senior officers get their way, women will soon be slashing
paths through the jungle and learning to bayonet the enemy.
They will even be considered for entry into the special forces
if they can run two miles in 16 minutes in full combat uniform
while carrying a rifle and a 66lb backpack.

Admiral Chris Barrie, chief of the Australian Defence Force,
put forward his proposals after a review of the role of women
in the military. In response, the government is expected to
overhaul employment laws that bar women from joining
combat units in the army, navy and air force.

Military commanders say they must appeal to women if they
are to arrest a decline in the number of recruits, which has
fallen by 20% in 10 years. While the initiative has been
welcomed by female recruits, the prospect of training women
for hand-to-hand combat has put some men up in arms.

"It's a load of rubbish," said a major in the army's training
division who served in Vietnam. "I have a daughter and I
wouldn't like to see her in the front line.

"The nature of the male beast is that he can drop the shutters
and kill. Can a woman do that?"

The answer is yes, according to Karlene Oliver, 17, a lock
forward in her high school rugby team - "It was great fun
smashing up other girls without getting into trouble" - who
enlisted in the army last week.

"I don't doubt that women can do what men can do," she said
as she headed off for a six-week basic training course in
Wagga Wagga, New South Wales. "I don't think women are
the weaker sex psychologically."

Oliver joined another new recuit, Alexi Dranna, 18, from
Brisbane, Queensland, who aims to enter a combat unit. "If I
pass all the physical tests, why not join the frontline troops?"
she said.

Should she succeed, Dranna will become one of the few
combat-ready women soldiers in the world.

Canada, which allowed women into combat units in 1987, is
believed to be the only western country that recruits them
specifically for the front line. Fewer than 100 have trained as
battle soldiers, serving in peace-keeping roles in Bosnia,
Congo and Rwanda.

In Australia, the most controversial aspect of the military's
plans is the possibility that women will join the Special Air
Service Regiment (SASR), the nation's most elite combat
unit. No other country has entertained the notion of women
serving in crack squads of this calibre.

The SASR, which fought behind enemy lines in Vietnam, is
regarded as one of the world's toughest military outfits,
renowned for the intensity of its training in the deserts of
Western Australia.

If Dranna attempted to join the SASR, she would be
expected, on day one, to run 1 1/2 miles in 9 minutes 30
seconds and to do 60 press-ups and 100 sit-ups.

The rest of the course includes running and walking for up to
60 miles across desert dunes, arduous underwater diving
exercises and a series of free-fall parachute jumps. Recruits
learn how to "engage the enemy" and destroy them using
bullets, bayonets, knives and bare hands.

One woman has already proved she is up to the physical
standard required. Major Robyn Fellowes recently
completed the cadre commando course, an endurance test in
the outback that is said to be as tough as the SASR's.
Fellowes enlisted for the intelligence service but still had to
undergo commando training. "Many men couldn't have done
it," said a senior officer.

Although many in the military establishment have no objection
to women in combat units, some remain hostile, particularly
older soldiers. Michael O'Connor, executive director of the
Australian Defence Association, a military think tank, warned
against the proposal.

"I don't like it one bit, frankly. The liberal elites, the feminists,
are driving this. They're trying to change the role of women,"
said O'Connor, who saw combat as a military policeman in
Papua New Guinea in the 1950s.

"Fighting in wars is not a role for women."

Some military women in Australia have nevertheless shown
themselves undaunted by physical obstacles. Last year
Natalee McDougall, 22, became the country's first female
helicopter pilot.

"I don't think the process of getting women into combat units
is gender-related," said Admiral Barrie. "What we have got to
focus on is: are the individuals capable of doing the job?"
 

......................................................................
 

So now the question : What do you think of women as snipers ? The Russian had them in WW II.
Are there real limitations to a female sniper team ?
I dont think CoEd would work, but belive that a Woman could in some situations actually be the better Sniper.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 03:21:15 (EST) 

So you've been to "Shooting and Winterwarfare Trainingcentre" at Elverum. I've been there several times. It's a cold place...

You were shooting Norwegian produced H&K G3's.

To Torsten:

I think ski-biathlon is more difficult. You are wearing out your arms with the ski-poles on the track. They have no "juice" left for the shootingrange.

BTW. Ski-biathlon is the most entertaining shootingevent. Especially the 4X7,5km relay. You americans should go to Salt Lake City Olympics in 2002 and watch it live.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 07:33:56 (EST) 

jep your right about that, exept the low center of gravity. I showed our club presidents 18 year old daughter the correct offhand position with a Feinwerkbau Air Rifle, you know hip froward, supporting arms elbow on the hip, etc. When I looked down to see if she was placing the elbow correctly I saw that her hips ended about three inches above my bellybutton, and I´m 6´2´´ ! What a set of legs !!! and she was´nt wearing Gooches pumps ether !

TorF

point taken on the long arms thing, exept that we run with the rifles in hand, but thats still not working them in Skiing fashion.

I went to our Winter Warfare training in Mittenwald, I hate Mountains, you know, thin wind and such!

Norway would be nice though, now if I could just get the wife to come along !
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
scrounging G3 parts for the guy´s, in G3ermany - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:11:59 (EST) 

Sure why not. Makes the hide a lot cozier. If it gets real cold the sharing of body heat thing would be great. And we'll just time our offensive action to when they go on the rag every month. And all of the rapes and sexual harrasment charges that will be floating around will improve the good order and discipline in the grunt units. Also the lowering of standards which will no doubt happen can make it easier for all men and women to get in elite units so that our armed forces are a reflection of the sheep that we protect.

I trained women recruits in small arms at Parris Island for almost 3 years. Sure they were easier to teach, if you didnt accidently touch one wrong or have one fall in love with her coach. Even had one have an orgasm one time while a coach chewed her ass out on the firing line! They cried when it got cold and wet, they could barely handle the rifle cause of its length, had a hard time grasping an M9 pistol because of its grip size and some couldn't press the double action trigger with one trigger finger. Half of them couldn't see out of a fighting hole and had to have help gettin out of said fighting hole.

Almost every female DI I talked to said that women should not go to combat.

Why do women want this? They dont!! THE POLITICIANS DO!!!! Its all a continuation of the Pat Schroeder agenda now being carried on by Barbera Boxer and Diane Feinstein. Its the old equal rights thing. I dont want men to go to combat much less women. WHy do they treat the duty of going to war and killing and being killed like a civil right comparable to equal pay and pregnancy leave?

War is a terrible thing. No one should have to go. Leave the women out. Sure the Russians had women snipers. THey also had 10 and 12 year old boys too. Thier country was being over ran and everything had to be thrown at the Nazis. If we ever get down to the same point the Russians and Germans got to in WWII or get in a situation like the Isrealis(?) we would have to do the same thing.

In case you didnt know the Canadian Armed Forces are a bigger experimentation ground for social change than even the US military under Clinton. THey are even giving sex change operations to soldiers!! No lie guys.

Why should we want to do as some of these other countries. We are the USA. Last time I checked we were the leaders not the followers.

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:26:17 (EST) 

It is doubtful that the uniforming tool is the culprit. It could be off dimension, but doubtful.

You state that you "set" firing pin protrusion. Are you by any chance playing with a homegrown titanium FP? I know these can be a nightmare.

Regardless of the problem, the .055 setting should get the job done, but I'm probably a poor one to ask. The only ignition problems I've experienced were with fast actions and "issue" ammunition with hard primers.

It was mentioned in another post that the cases might be a bit short.
This could be the problem or it could be that something is slowing the striker. You could also have some bad primers, but this doesn't happen often either.

Have you made any modifications to the Remington bolt? If so, you might try reversing these mods.
 
 

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
THAWING - SE, IL USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:41:17 (EST) 

check this out, all sorts of nice pictures !

"Ende"
Torsten <ya know>
- Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:43:50 (EST) 

Marius,
I understand where your comming from on posts getting to personal but then we are all "BIG BOYS" and we should be up for a little flak if were cought with our pants down on a particular issue. I agree this is not a place for "Personal" attacks but if the person is wrong then what is wrong with calling them on it?? Someone may profess to be a so called expert and if someone else knows their not then maybe it should be brought to light. Just my opinion and as AL says....
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 12:36:48 (EST) 

Just a dumb hill billy, but have you tried your local Wal-marts? I was standing around while wifey shopped, and asked the clerk at my local WM sporting goods dept. about Remington 700's and she whipped out a 3" thick catalog, said what do you need, and that they could cut a chunk off the list prices too.
So Don't drop to your hands and knees just yet guys, make some local phone calls there has to be some in the pipeline.

Oh-yes they have Shoe-goo, tripods, cheap spray paints in our favorite decorator colors, and canvas, jute, burlap, and camoflage pattern fabrics in the fabric dept. for you ground crawling Picasso's.
You could call it our own little "EVERYTHING store"............
Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 12:44:41 (EST) 

JR. Great post. You are going to be very welcome here.

To all. I was not going to comment on this, but feel compelled to now. I do not agree totally with the unilateral removal of posts on this roster. I tried to make that clear recently in a short note to Marius. But it was after the fact. The posts were removed by then. He did what he did because of the header at the top of this Roster. Right or wrong, it is done. It was done for good reasons from his perspective. I do not totally agree, but I can not fault him for trying to keep the place civil. My view of the rules of engagement is that you avoid foul abusive language while still getting your point across in an intelligent manner. If you can do that, we'll are all grown up here and can take it, or should be able to.
I see it this way: while we need to remain civil on the Roster to avoid having it degenerate into a real cluster F*** of abuse, we also should not feel like we have to pull punches when they are due. If a product sucks, or some one has slung a truck load about something, by all means, I feel it only responsible to allow rebuttles. This does not mean violent hate mail. But if a guy says his rifle can hit a fly's eye at 1000 meters or that he is the greatest shot in the world or that this or that product will give 100% effectiveness every time, well, you just can't let that go! Why? Because some people will surely believe it!

So I'll reiterate. Play nice. BUT tell it like it is.

As far as "A voice from the Past" goes, he is entitled to his opinion. He seems to forget that half the people reading this site are civis or POLICE who do not need, can not justify, or simply can not get their department to pay for a $3000 rifle. But then, his kind of arrogence has caused us grief enough here. So "Voice", do we just ignore a complete line of firearms that LE has to use to satisfy your belief in generally unobtainable rifles?
Go back to your hole boy, if you do not like what ou see here, don't come back. Go play big shot at the show. And while you are there, tell all those cops you meet that their PSS/P DM/VS/110FP/what ever is a piece of crap. I am sure they'll just be so happy to hear it. I am also sure they will love to hear that you are going to foot the bill for their new high dollar rig.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 12:48:19 (EST) 

I remember a time when there was talk about Snipers, SWS´s, Naugas, Shotguns, Savages, and even R....´s on this site and we all seemed to have a ball and still get the point across in a professional manner.

I wonder if that will come back before everyone goes out to look for it elsewere ?
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
- Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 13:32:42 (EST) 

The Remington 700/PSS (hinged floorplate) is still available in .223 with 9" twist...

In .308, only the 700/P-DM is now available.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 14:08:50 (EST) 

Chuck Taylor's website and e-mail addresses are wrong.
 

-
, - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 14:59:54 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 15:06:59 (EST) 

Some of the people who care the most about the "skill to kill" are the ones who get riled the most on here. Im sure "gunplumber" (or whatever)has reasons for what he said. Sure he was pretty blunt about some stuff but...

I had left this site for a while because of the way some people were being treated. I started hanging out again because things had cooled down. Lets not go back that way.

On the other hand how are we supposed to address stuff like bogus instructors in the community, or rip off products? THats what this site is about right? Lets say a certain person is selling a rifle stock as a "drop in" stock when it is not. I come on here and call a spade a spade. Is that an attack? No, its the truth. If a certain person does me or others wrong in this community should I stay quiet about it or let everyone else know so you guys can avoid this person too?

A perfect example is a certain member of the community who purports to have been a "black ops" operative. I have talked to a former employee of this persons and numerous SF/SOCOM fellers who say they never heard of operations involving the guy. He claims to be working for the State dept yet they deny that he works for them. Maybe he is a double-naught spy! Who knows?

Well lets just all relax and put the kevlar back on and prepare to defend our positions. After all we are wearing big boy pants, most of us. I havent seen any one blast anyones personal issues on here, only shooting related material. Lets keep it that way and let shit fly!

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 15:17:17 (EST) 

Has anyone seen or shot the new Tactical Remington with the 20" barrel?? Who is making the stock on them?? Is it still and H&S?? They look like a neat little rifle, should be the answer for the Law Enforcemant boys.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 15:21:48 (EST) 

Right or wrong, I stand by the removal/edit of the posts, irrespective of what the cadaver has to say. To me it can best be said in the words of someone else, namely the majordomo of a listserver I belong to:

"To be unsubscribed from xxx, send email to xxx, or breach the canons of civility that govern our interchange in this group."

I agree, we will disagree on a lot of things, but we should do so in a civil manner. I think Taylor has a lot of gall, to say the least, to come on here and call himself the best trainer in the country. Take him on, but don't take him down - and that applies to anybody. Let's just enjoy the ride.

Now it is time for bed.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:41:26 (EST) 

Semper Lethalis
SPYDER1 <SPYDER1@mailexcite.com>
Augusta, GA USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:44:55 (EST) 

I'm in full agreement with your last post. Everyone is an adult here, or should be, and generally it shows. I've been visiting here for the past few months, and while I have little to contribute, what has kept me here has been both the knowledge of the group, and mostly its maturity. If a question is made, usually several well-thought out responses are forthcoming. Not everyone agrees, but each individuals point is generally made intelligently. Truthfully, if people are looking for either personal attacks or lots of bad information, all they have to do is hang-out at rec.guns for a while. You really have to hunt thru the garbage there to find a gem. Not so here, and I'm sure that's why many stay here.

By the way, for those who remember my last post, my wife has decided to put up with the smell of Hoppes as a nice gesture on her part. I owe her, of course :)
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:51:24 (EST) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:53:17 (EST) 

Fake trainers are abundant and ripping off many folks every where. An example is a former FBI Guy that claims to have been there and done everything. He even teaches Oil Rig Take Downs. His place of instruction is in a nearby valley. Well last year the department sent me to his M16 Instructor class. It took about five minutes to know he was a fake in the sense that he didn't know the weapon period. He is just a teaching whore. That was one long school.

Crappy gear is another thing. I have seen more junk pushed on PD's then you could imagine. Recently they came up with "The Wrap" Long story short if you get six cops you can tie someone up in this thing. No kidding but six of use usually can take care of anyone so whats the point. This thing is bigger than my combined SWAT and Riot Gear bags. All the PD's bought it and no one uses it.

Well you got me started now. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 20:03:39 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 21:15:14 (EST) 

BTW, I understand that Ruger has an "LE version" varmint rifle. Anyone know anything about it ?? And FWIW...Ala State Troopers have Steyr .308's for the TAC units !!! Maybe it has to do with the importer being here in the state ??
Comments ??
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Sweet Home, Alabama USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 21:41:36 (EST) 

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 22:34:05 (EST) 

Have one of those Rem. Lightweights at the shop right now. 20" barrel, three wide flutes, stock is H-S, like the PSS stock but forend is a bit shorter and narrower, and no palm swells, nice and light, I think around 7-8 pounds. No subsitute for a heavy barreled guns, but if you want a lightweight, quick handeling, easy to hump for miles, it looks pretty good. It is for sale, see www.awesomearms.com for info.
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
So., Ca USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 22:49:24 (EST) 

It is all I have ever used to lube my AR-15 and I have not experienced any problems. As to bore cleaning with it...Don't know, never tried that.

Gooch,

Don't hold back, what do you really think about women in combat?

IMHO, there are some things in life (combat, fire fighting, subdoing thugs, etc) that women should just not be a part of (.) They get in the way trying to do somthing that they can't physically do and they put others at risk when they need help. My wife and I lock horns on this issue on ocasion but over the years she has come to understand that I can't abide guys that are talkers but not doers either!

I don't care which but you need to: Lead, Follow, or Get Out of My Way!

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Thawing out at last in, Magnificent, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 01:54:27 (EST) 

what do you guy´s use to keep snow, rain, crud, out of your rifle barrel ?

I know, first of all dont let the stuff get in there in the first place, carry the weapon muzzle down in the rain etc. but what do you use to cover it ?

Condom ? Tape ? just any plastic foil ?

and has anyone tested if it changes the cold barrel zero ???

The stuff should be blown away before the bullet gets there, but does it work ?

I use latex anti HIV Gloves, cut off the fingers and .... five muzzledoms !

Of course mine is bigger then yours because I have this here muzzlebrake on it.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 03:12:35 (EST) 

Mike S,
Thanks for the comeback! I seen a picture of one and they look like they would be a nice tool for law enforcement or humping over hill and dale.

Bill R.
I think it depends on the dealer, some wont sell you a PSS without a dept. letter head and the next will sell it to anyone.

James R,
If you go back into the archives you will find pages of discussion on the 06 vs the 08 and I think you will find that the 308 wins hands down for many reasons butd if you have an 06 it will make a fine "Sniper" rifle for you.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 07:37:46 (EST) 

I use Scotch tape, the "brittle(?)" one. I have no change of POI on my sniperrifle. I've had problems with condensation inside the barrel under changeing temperatures. On long patrols(hunts these days) I put a dry patch through the barrel each day and put a new wrap on.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 07:52:43 (EST) 

I "tested" the dorsal "turret" a genuine Heinkel He 111 bomber yesterday. Single MG15, magazenes in rack, installed. My goodness! Not a place to be when Spitfires and Mustangs are shooting at you. Where's the foxhole?
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 08:01:59 (EST) 

Herr Spinne Doktor,

Not to be Marcus Welby or anything, but this dumb hillbilly observes the politicaly correct term here in the US of A is "Personal Protective Equipment" for gloves, and other protective barriers against all kinds a terrible socially spread, debillitating Bloodborne Pathogens, e.g. HIV, Hepatittis A-D, Ebola, Lyme Disease, VD, Herpes, MDR-Tuburculosis, ad nauseum. oh DID GRAMPS SEND YOU ONE OF THE GENUINE SWEDISH MUZZLE ENLARGERS? Hmmmmmmm?

Where is Gramps folks, i kinda miss him?

Man, I wouldn't waste a perfectly good condom on muzzle protection, they can be washed and used again! ;-) I like the targ dot/ paster idea, THATS GREAT! how do they hold up in rain n sleet?

Mike M, once again Most Excellent Post on rip-offs and equipment that is of absolutely no use to ANYONE! Liars be damned and EXPOSED!

Will, Naugas with a .308? Nope make mine at least .375 H&H preferably a .600 NE double! Oops I was thinking of something else Ah-Duh!

Depity,
C'mon now, free-sparring with a Babe can be lotsa fun and lead to many absolutely compromising positions, without that Femi-nazi type attitude. Now Hows that for outlandish folks!

Gooch, Right said as usual!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, bY-GaWd USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 09:30:20 (EST) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 10:02:20 (EST) 

Ok guys. Marius is going to archive this weekend.
Here is your new Warning Orders: Once this mess has gone into the SC history books, I would humbly request we all get back ON TOPIC. That topic is sniping. Sniping history. Sniper gear. Plus related comments and story's about the topic. You quite LE and military guys who surf in silently, please pipe up. This site is for you and could use your insight.
I have received a fair amount of mail recently on how the Roster has been lacking something lately due in part to a lot of irrelevant topics. The SC staff can not control the subject matter nor do we actively try to. The Roster has pretty much been a free fire zone. While I will not tell you all what to discuss here, I would implore you to please try to keep the comments relevant to the purpose of the site. Whether it is good, bad, or ugly, tell it like it is - but above all, try to keep it tactical and topic related. I hate to be the preach. It doesn’t suite me well and I usually botch the job. I am just trying to guide the Roster back to it’s old shining self. Above all, those of you who are dissatisfied with the recent content of the Roster, please keep in mind that the real meat of the Site is the main page and its subcategories. The Roster was provided as a way to allow the readership to contact each other and learn more than we, the staff, can provide in our written essays. Use it wisely. But remember at all times that the Roster is not SC. It is just one small part of it.

On firearms instructors and schools: The SC staff can not attend every school in the states (although we would surely like too). Therefore we can not comment intelligently on each school and what it has to offer. Schools wishing for us to attend, for review purposes, please contact us and we will do everything in our power to attend. We can not always guarantee a show, but we will try to fit our schedules to mutual agreement.

There are a lot of interesting techniques out there and many work in one fashion or another. Some techniques are dated and others are unproven. We at SC can not be the judge but are always willing to listen and learn. If you, the reader, have been to these schools and can express yourself clearly, consider writing a review for SC.

As far as instructor credentials go, I am not of the opinion that one has had to have been shot at or shot to be a good defensive handgun instructor, rifle guru or gun pundit, nor do they need to have years of special experience. On the other hand, they do need a good coach or primary instructor to impart the necessary skill that will be passed on to the students. And they do need to be able to teach a chosen method, and be able to back that method up with logic and thought. My only beef with any instructor, weather he is new or has been at it since the invention of the toilet, is when he presents himself as something he is not. If he is good enough, he needn’t embellish his credentials. His teaching methods alone will suffice. That is all I have to add to this topic. Go forth and train.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 10:51:10 (EST) 

the order of the Month:

"go forth and train !!!!"

I like that, no hunkydory Gungho BS, just like it is, almost as good as "Hold hard". Where is Rick ??

Pete,

The "Jellomeister once called Gramps" has been building a barn for his new horsy´s, and froze his Jetwalker in a pile of horseexhaust. He should be thawing out soon and be on Deck again shortly !

Muzzlewrap !

with our G-3´s we unscrew the flash hider place a piece of plastic bag over it and srew the thing back on.
protects the bore and doesnt look like a Cristopher day parade !

I remember the days when we were issued black platic muzzlecaps, and that we as DI´s used to pay for a case of beer when one of our pups send one down range! I may get some for "the nephew" and LeMay !

I´ve also seen some of the foamy ear plugs as well as muzzleplug, but not really great for a schnipper, ehhh!

Do it !

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 11:43:44 (EST) 

Jiliyan
Jiliyan Milne <jiliyan@hotmail.com>
Toronto, Ont. Canada - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 11:47:53 (EST) 

Shooting is no diff, imho, than stick training, knife training, etc. You gotta do it to get good at it, and the only way to find out if you are any darned good is to go full contact [in a manner of speaking] with someone better than you. Recently listened to 2 guys argue over the better / worse than attributes of the Accuracy International and the PSG-1. Know both of them well, I have shot both of their rigs, and like 'em both. Guarantee not a case of rounds have gone through either gun, probably not through both guns combined. Lordy, they wouldn't shoot guns like that in the pouring rain, sleet, snow. Causes one to smile.

I enjoy this forum much, although I mainly lurk. My advice on the whole Savage / 700 / 70/ whatever debate is simply to find a gun that fits you, and then pour ammo through it under every cirmcumstance imaginable. Personally, don't give two good sh**s about what others think of my rigs. Can you hit with your gun? Seems the only relevant question.

Take care, all.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfim.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 11:51:41 (EST) 

just uncamoed my 86SR and below the camotape I struck "Natogold".

It used to hold up fine under just burlap wrap, but I guess the stickum in the tape keeps the moisture in. I´ll soak it overnight and brush it with steel wool in the morning. Or I´ll just paint it again, what do you think Gooch, the Walmart special ?

Done for the day and fixin to schmuse with the Frau.
T-man <turn left at the next light and the 6732 blocks east>
G3ermany - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 12:02:42 (EST) 

Thanks for the clarification on pasties, jUST EXACTLY IS A SP1/CAR? AN M-4 VARIANT?

Where is Mr. Bowcher??
Rick you still with us, or building a Sav'age Snipers suprise for the '99 matches? I'll cut you a deal on a slightly used generic 3-9 X-mart scope that will just finish the package perfectly!

Oh I forgot to post earlier, those that have a fascination with any conceivable glory involved with taking a life, spend a week watching "Life in the ER" on cable, run with a ambulance crew some weekend, or peruse a text like "Gunshot Wounds".
That should be enough to switch thoughts back to paper or metal targets.

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
DAZED n CONFUSED IN, bY-gAWd USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 12:42:41 (EST) 

Sorry to clutter up the site; but TorF didn't leave his address.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 12:55:26 (EST) 

Now to whoever bad mouthed PSS'S. Son get out and shoot and quit thinking about it. No Bench racer ever one a race and no Tecno Shooter has enough going to win a match or save a life. Trust me if you are a bad guy you don't want me looking at you through my scoped PSS at any range. Bottom line is what Plaster said Police Snipers need a one minute or less rifle. Every PSS I have shot would do 1/2 to 3/4 minute and that equals lights out right now for bad guys.

Tor's E-mail me your address I have something for you to test in your climate. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 13:10:29 (EST) 

Does anyone know of a commercial source for the "E" silhouette backers commonly used in USMC weapons training?
Jon Custis <custisja@navair.navy.mil>
Orlando, FL USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 13:45:11 (EST) 

Now, I will do something to hopefully start some serious healing around here. I hereby apologize to "Voice". I probably misunderstood his intent and jumped on him for reasons best left unsaid. We may never see eye to eye, but as part of this staff I should not have fired a broadside so readily. To the rest of you, stand easy. Lets’ keep this thing professional. Even when the staff sometimes doesn’t.

Out.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 13:51:39 (EST) 

Chris
Chris Newkirk <airmechanic@att.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 14:14:31 (EST) 

In a nutshell, longer barrels usally give a little extra velocity and the balance seems better to many on offhand and "leading" /tracking shots. Noise is further from the shooter too.

Pat(Mr bullet)
Duuuuude, Caveat Reloader Man. Check with the Pro's

Jiliyan, Nice post, You've met our Prez then??

Big SniperII (Cheerleader69) read my post at 12:42 hrs TODAY,

We don't need adolescent challenges. Most of us have kids and want them protected from danger and irresponsible actions.

I was a kid once, believe it or not, and when I went with my dad to get ammo for formal shooting matches, reloading components etc. etc All those "fat old boys" hanging at the gunstore used to give me a hard time.
I usually left feeling angry and humiliated, but I know for a fact and proved their mouths could not match their skill, (or mine) on more than one occassion. I practiced as often as my allowance and fathers generousity made practical.

By all means shoot and shoot often, with your parents supervision,

Maturity is shown by actions not words, if you have not picked up on that from this wonderful web site, STAFFERS, and the Duty Roster regulars.

Dino-Dudester,
I'm glad you got the "fever" too! Maybe we can hook up and compare notes. Bill Brophy taught me alot about you old guys, and why they deserve respect, SIR!

Folks Lets Rock N RoLL!

peteR
peter <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
TUPPERWARE CITH AHHHHHHHHHHH, bY-gAWD USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 17:18:36 (EST) 

CLP is good for lots of shit. Just dont clean the bore on match rifles with it. It leaves a teflon residue behind, which is what it was designed to do.

Muzzle caps - condoms. Unlubricated.

Lil sniper girl. Good attitude, bad judgment. THis isnt the place for you.

E sillouettes. Never seen them as a civilian target but most of the military targets come from the National Target Company. Ask the NRA?

Picking a good instructor? Look for enthusiasm and a willingness to teach from the heart. Also avoid the instructor who claims to know everything and has a bunch of "techniques" that he claims credit for. Believe me, you can track down most of the new marksmanship techniques back to some real old books. Avoid instructors who dont force you to crawl, then walk, then run. The fundamentals must be understood before you can move to the high speed stuff. Look for instructors who dont mind if you want to go to other instructors to compare programs. Compare prices. Some folks will really jam you. Ask to see credentials and dont be afraid to call around and check on people. Avoid instructors who rest on thier past laurels and havent fired a shot in years. Go to competitions and see who hires people to shoot for them or who goes out and competes himself.

AND ABOVE ALL...If you want to learn how to shoot, go to a Marine or a Soldier. If you want to learn to swim, go to a Sailor (Seabees excluded Murph). Yeah baby yeah! Stir it up!

See ya
 
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden , WV USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 17:34:30 (EST) 

Ive been in the Marines for about a year and a half. Im now trying to get into competitive shooting and would appreaciate any recommendations on equip. I would also like more information on your school, requirements, gear, cost etc.. Next, for any others out there, any opinions or info. on competitions in my area "Tx" would be welcome. I dont have a computer of my own so please send any comments to my home. Thank you for your time and keep up the good work.

Semper Fidelis,

Pfc Anthony Wright
3701 Northpark Drive
Corsicana, Tx 75110
 

Pfc Anthony Wright USMCR <NA>
Corsicana, Tx USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 17:57:19 (EST) 

You seem to have the most experience with Savages....help me out. I'm thinking of purchasing a 110FP (.308) in the Spring and have seen both good and bad comments. A couple of years ago I talked my old man into buying a Rem 700PSS in .308 and it has always shot like a dream. Will I wish that I had purchased a PSS ? Will I be trying to make modifications(stock, trigger, etc.) to the 110FP. Tell me more...please.

What aftermarket stocks will be offered in the future for the 110FP?

Anyone else that would like to respond....please feel free !
 

Thanks for your help SARGE ! (For ALL of your postings)
Ken <kknjoey@webzone.net>
Broken Arrow, OK USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 20:01:02 (EST) 

You should read the article titled "Accuracy Facts: The .308 versus the .30-06 "

It's found in "Articles and Commentary" on Snipercountry's website.

Then tell us what you think about it.
 

Ken <kknjoey@webzone.net>
Broken Arrow, OK USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 20:35:35 (EST) 

Agree with you 100%. I too have noticed a general decline in the technical aspects of sniping on this forum; too much blather. This has happened only in the last couple of months or so. Some people are posting personal junk that means nothing to 99% of the forum. Think people!!! Some of the postings from (unnamed) are just garbage. Only rarely can I decipher any of it.

Don't know how to stop it unless you go to a email list setup. That way you can filter out what is unnecessary by moderating with a heavy finger on the delete key. I only hope this forum will moderate themselves.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 21:19:50 (EST) 

I can tell you that even if a comppressed load does not send receiver parts flying - more accurate loads are usually built around the very thin line of 98- 99% case volume - under the bullet base. Many good handloaders will "tap" the loaded cases on the table before pushing the bullet down just to make sure the powder settled below where the bottom of the bullet will end up. Just like a box of corn flakes - powder can settle in the case about a million different ways. If you are loading with enough powder to pretty much fill the case some of the thrown charges may end up getting compressed and some may settle just right - consistency will suffer based on this chance settling of powder. The tubular powders 4895 - 4064 and even Varget will settle different each time. If you push a bullet on a powder charge that just happens to stand tall in the case you might compress it, and it may compress in such a way as not to "settle" down through normal handling later on.

J.D.
J.D. Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 22:40:39 (EST) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 22:47:34 (EST) 

I have to say one more thing about pressure in general. One can get excessive pressure from more than just too much powder. If a particular load is at or near max, any change in components or loading technique must be approached carefully.

Heavier brass has less internal capacity, full length sized brass vs. neck sized brass can change internal capacity, hotter - different lot of primers, thicker necks on same kind of brass, different neck sizing dies or full length dies that result in a tighter neck, tighter crimp if you are actually using any crimp at all, a general load of crap inside the neck can result in a heavier grip on the bullet just like a crimp. Bullets seated our farther or some different bullet style / shape of the same weight. Hotter ambient air temperature with a sensative powder, stop using moly. Differnt lot of powder - tumbler crap left in the case.

Get the idea?

J.D.

J.D. Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 23:00:51 (EST) 

Pfc Wright. email me at Stormmountain in a couple of days. As a member of the reserves you may be able to get onto a team for the Competition in Arms program. FOr a starter check with your S-3 and find out if 4th MarDiv is fielding any shooters for Division matches next spring. If not I've got some other options to talk to you about. There is a real good cahnce we will be conductin a course in Dallas come March. Not sure who is sponsoring it right now. Im not in WV yet. If the USMC route fails I can put you in touch with a Texas National Guard Colonel who is the OIC of the All Guard High Power team and is active in the Texas State Rifle Association who will help you out. He is a big fan of us Jarheads. As far as sniper type matches go I can help you find some of them as well can many of the other yahoos on here. You've come to the right place Marine. Listen and learn.
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 23:25:28 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 23:42:49 (EST) 

On the subject of Sniping-How does one limit the flash off of prescription glasses? It seems at times they can act as mirrors or am I totaly wrong here?

Does anyone have a phone number to H.S. Precision? I want to install a third sling swivel lug on my VS to use for bi-pod mount but don't know if there is anything special to watch out for. I read about this in SC reviews.
 

Bill M <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 23:54:52 (EST) 

Anyway, I haven't seen much discussion if any at all pertaining to Leica's Geovid. I'm not considering buying one, but I'm just curious as to what you guys have to say about them. Anyone I've talked to has does nothing but sing it's praises, aside from the enormous cost, I feel like it's an excellent unit.

Opening the floor, any input would be appreciated.
 

Casey <Caseyb@SCS.UNR.edu>
Reno, Nevada USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 01:14:48 (EST) 

just heard it in the radio, last night a AWACS Group 707 Tanker from the National Air Guard crashed after a touch and go at the Geilenkirchen Airbase in Germany. All four crewmembers dead.

My deep respect to them,their families and the others that continue the peacekeeping missions over former Jugoslavia.
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 02:54:45 (EST) 

I agree with the policy of "18 or older" for liability concerns, but even that is not a guarantee that some older psychotic will not come in and gather information.

Big Sniper I and II both seem to be innocent enough on the surface, but in light of recent attacks at schools in Arkansas, Oregon, and Kentucky, we all need to be cautious.

An unfortunate truth to the Internet and web sites is that anyone can access them, unless some sort of Age Verification System is used. I have only seen those AVSs used on "Adult Entertainment" sites, to keep the kiddies from seeing porno.

The other side of the coin is that youngsters represent both the future of the shooting sports and the future of politics. (I know: the collective GROAN starts now) We cannot afford to alienate youngsters. Instead of jumping down their throats, maybe we can do something more civil and recommend that they participate in the NRAs Junior Shooter programs. I think that we would all agree that we would like kids to shoot, but we want to keep their interests in areas that are less involved in the "social work" of the business.

Later,

Bruce

By the way, e-mail me if you are planning on attending the SHOT Show. I am in the Atlanta area. We can attempt to coordinate a dinner or something. Maybe Gooch can get Storm Mountain to sponsor it!! :-)
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 08:16:35 (EST) 

JD and Bill,
Thanks for the comeback on the compressed loads. I wasn't worried about the normal compression of powder, were talking a bullet going three quarters of an inch down into the powder charge. The powder I am using isn't listed in my loading data. It is listed for the 7mm-08 and I took the light load for the 140gr in the 7-08 to come up with this load in my 260 maybe I am wrong for doing this also any thoughts??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 09:31:16 (EST) 

Jason Cain <race4sex85@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 10:38:12 (EST) 

Sarge, had a recent class. 30 students all capable of less than one minute at 200 yards from nice range position. Made them stalk a couple of hundred yards, pick a position and shoot at 4" plate from dirt, brush and muck position. Five missed. You are doing fine.

The only thing this site need is spell check.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOLL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 10:43:20 (EST) 

I'm looking for input on the H.S. Precision Pro-series TT2000 Tactical/Long Range Takedown System. Any of you that are going to the SHOT Show might wish to look at this weapon while you are there. All componets are being made by H.S. Precision and I liked what I saw at the Sniper Symposum last week in MD.

Iron Fred will tell you that "Everyone is Entitled to My Openion" but I'm asking for yours.

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Iced Over, West Virginia USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 12:36:39 (EST) 

You need body armour and a security detatchment just to sandbag on the roster. Lighten up gentlemen. If you are personnally offended by someone else's opinion, maybe you need to go get some counseling to deal with what ever lack of emotional maturity to have...or don't.

Gooch, I really appreciate the clarity and forthrightness of your opinion...great job. I am really looking forward to recieving instruction from you at SMTC. Hoist Me!

Does Any one have any experience with Zero( brand name) Laminated stocks? They are available from Brownells. They have a stock that looks just like a McMillan A-2 and weighs in at 3lbs. I looked at it and looked at it, and finally ordered one....Ah...whew, well here goes...for my Savage 110 FP....The barrel finally went to SH**. and after only 4000 rounds...Hmmm. Imagine that. So I am Having it rebarreled with a Schnieder barrel. I have been looking for a "reasonable" Stock....This Zero thing goes for 275 or something like that. And comes ready to "drop in". That kind of scares me. The Savage action is "okay" So I thought it deserved another chance.

Yes, I am a Winchester Fan okay!! I don't care who makes what...as long as it works. If it had the Pope's name on it and it is a peice of doo doo I'm deep sixin' it.

So..Open for discussion...Zero Stocks...anybody have anything constructive to say about them.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Florida USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 14:19:49 (EST) 

Did't Carlos win at Camp Parry in the 60's with a Win 30.06.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 16:26:29 (EST) 

Nice Ballistics page - right here in the great Northwest.

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~basiji/Ballistics/ballistics.html

J.D.
J.D. Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 18:12:52 (EST) 

Hello I am looking for Info on a rifle maker named Randy Landon of
Landtec Ltd. He is out of London Kentucky.
I was referred to him by Andy Webber of Armament Technology for
work on my Rem 700 PSS and about buying one of his 300 mags.
Any Info on his rifles will be very appreciated.

S.Barrier
Stephen Barrier <Sbarr25@aol.com>
Chandler , Oklahoma USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 18:57:30 (EST) 

Boy I can't get to the roster for a few days and things do get interesting!
Thanks to everyone that has made comments about me and my poor old Savage! I don't now and never will present myself as any kind of "expert" when it comes to shooting and weaponry. I only admit to 20 years of active US Army service and a love of shooting! If I happen to have picked up a little (very little) :-) knowledge of shooting along the way and can pass that on I will! I am also one - as those that have e-mailed me on some question or another - that if I don't know the answer WILL SAY SO!!
As an old professor of mine once said - the only dumb question is the one you DON'T ask! So for all our new and some of the "older" readers and lurkers if you have a question by god ASK - someone else probably has the same question. BUT, there is always a but (pun intended), please check the "Hot Tips and Cold Shots" you could very well find the answer there, if not ASK!! We all can learn no matter how many years, months, days we've been doing this!
On the "Great Rifle Debate" - again as others have said - find a weapon you are comfortable with, can afford, and can hit what you aim at then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE this is the ONLY way to develop ANY kind of proficiency at all!!
Well I know there was something else I was going to say but Mrs. Sarge just said dinner is ready so guess I better git while the gittin's good!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 00:24:39 (EST) 

Sniper Country

One Shot, One Kill

TOTO <estes@feist.com>
DO-DA, Kansas USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 01:07:12 (EST) 

Ron N. I have never had a misfire. The only factory ammo I shoot is that which the Army provides. Otherwise, I can't afford to shoot anything but my own reloads. I have used an RCBS case prep center thingy since it appeared because I like the way the primers all go in to the same depth. Its got a stop collar that's factory set, as I'm sure you know, and I think you were right on the money in stating that your pocket uniformer may be removing too much metal. I'd machine a two-half split stop collar if, necessary, to limit the cutting depth. If I could get away with making one similar to a split locking ring for a reloading die then that would probably be simpler. Good luck with it.

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <the wife's got the computer at college>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 01:37:04 (EST) 

Are ther advantages of the Dragunov over the M14? Are there Disadvantages of the Dragunov over the M14? I personally would be concerned as for replacement parts for the dragunov, but have been advised that this might be unfounded. As for the M14, the parts cost $$ is outragious! ANYONE OUT THERE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GIVE ME YOUR OPINION <> Furthermore, if anyone out there has a good Norinco M14 for sale, EMAIL ME!!!!!
Dave <CrzyHotrod@AOL.com>
Wichita, Kansas USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 02:21:30 (EST) 

Dave,

IF you HAVE to have a semi-auto, stay away from the Chinese M-14 and the Dragunov...

I would like to have a real Dragunov w/ optics, just for its historical value, but that is it. The 7.62X54R is, in fact, a .30 cal, but that is all that it shares with the .308. It is not nearly as stable and consistent with either the .308 or the -06. Aberdeen Proving Grounds personnel were not impressed with the Dragunov, giving it a Max. Effective Range of only 800M. By the way, if you're not a military person, that is not an impressive number for a Sniper-grade rifle.

The Chinese M-14s had all sorts of receiver problems last time I checked. The bolt lug recesses became badly peened because the receivers were too soft. This allowed the headspace to quickly open up, resulting in an unsafe gun.

The Springfield M-1A is a good gun and is certainly capable of out-shooting most humans behind it. You get what you pay for.

Lest people think that I am auto-bashing, my primary L.E. sniper gun is a custom AR-15....

The gun that I am quickly becoming fascinated with is the Stoner SR-25. Everything that I am hearing indicates that it blows the ArmaLite out of the water for accuracy. If I go the auto-308 route, it may just be with one of those, unless I go .260 Remington on the same platform.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 04:23:13 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 05:07:40 (EST) 

I have a Norinco M305, and after a lot of tuning it can shoot 4 inch groups at 300 Meters on some days and only with reloaded Match ammo.
It groups better than our issued G-3ZF, but it will never be as acurate as a bolt Gun.

I read no mention of optics in you question, you should plan on spending the same amount or more for a good scope and mount than you do for your rifle.

Now if you really need a "brass thrower" I would go along the M 14 / M 305 route as it offers plenty of aftermarket parts to improve the system as you go along.

But always remeber that even though you´ll look like "Rambo tito" it will never shoot as good as a bolt gun. And Semi´s tend to put this strange "spray & pray" reflex in your trigger finger leading your subconsion to a "ehh what the heck I have 19 more to go" mentalety were the one shot does´nt count anymore.

I went along your route,learned by doing it, but I am settled between the two worlds now with a bolt gun with 9 round mag.

Still have my M305/21 and it´s fun to shoot, but never would I trade my bolt gun for it.

Stay with what Bruce also mentioned, buy the Dillon video and a bolt gun.

Robert:

"Been there done that", you need a forward canted scope mount to come up to 1000 Meters. Take of the elevation knob and you can see the end of travel stop where you are hitting against now.
The scope will need to be zeroed with only a few clicks remaining toward the bottom, but a lot of MOA´s up.

Search the review section of the main page for the tapered shims, they will do you fine without having to mill an forward angle into your existing mount like I did. Ehem !
But I was a happy sniperpuppy when after I did the math, milled the angle, put everything back together, added the MOA´s to the elevation, and hit the 1´x1´target backer without another zero. It was right there were my calculations put it after angeling the mount.
It´s fun when math works for you this way.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 05:57:47 (EST) 

Ed_Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 06:33:43 (EST) 

"I have the new XIII 3-9 M3 LR Scope..."
(It's a 3.5x10, I have one and it's a great scope... the 3x9 is a different beastie!)

"... Can you tell me why, when I move the windage knob up (right as arrow indicates) my reticle moves left?"

The arrows and "R" and "L" indicate the direction that the "Group" moves, not the reticle. In order for the group to move "Right", the reticle must move left... If the gun is shooting 3" to the left, you must move the reticle over to superimpose it on the group... it looks like the group is moving right, but the reticle is really moving left.

"I'm not able to move the elevtion knob to the 1000 meter mark (or 10)."

You need tapered bases, or base shims... they will give you the extra you need. You can't use the 3.5x10 M3-LR-SF with standard bases.

"If my memory serves me right, I thought down was right and up was
left on the windage."

It often is, but which way the knob turns to go "right", is determined by which element, or optical group, is being moved to accomplish the "windage" adjustment... is this case it is the other way.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 10:34:30 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.,com>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 11:44:00 (EST) 

The problem happens when this scope is installed on standard bases.
If done that way, and the scope is "mechanically centered", when zero'ed at 100 yds, you have 35 moa of "down" which is wasted, and 30 moa up... but it takes about 50 moa of up to get a 308 match bullet out to 1000 yards... so you can only get out to about 650/750 yds.
So you use tilted bases, (mine give 25 moa of forward tilt). That way, when zero'ed at 100 yds, you have 10 moa of wasted "down", and 55 moa of up. Then when you put on the BDC cap, you have the whole range available...
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 10:37:26 (EST) 

I'll gladly forward a copy of this message to anyone who wants one.
 

Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 11:26:58 (EST) 

Gooch: Dont forget to do at least a posting when you get there so i know ya got there or else im gonna start spreading rumors that Trisha wasnt really sleeping with her head in your lap last night at the club!!!! And i promise i will come up within 6 months, see, now its written down so I cant weasel out of it. I will even bring the LoveGoddess (Rach or who ever it is at the moment) and the mutt.I wonder what a cross breeding of a Ridgeback and a Rottweiller would look like? Dont forget to put me down for that SMTC match, im gonna kick butt there!! One more thing, you forgot your tripod, i got it fixed. I'll bring it with me.

Gunplumr: I know ya taught me alot, but you also taught me that everybody has their preferences for weapons, (i.e. mine is Rem700s, yours is pre-64s) for whatever reason. So Warren, chill out with the attacks or i will stop sending you links to that porn chick you like!!! Hows Misses Julie these days? And email me, you old fart or call me at the shop!!! I have a problem with a Krico electronic trigger and i need some help, ok?

Well gotta go rebarrel my CAR15 and my Long Gun for the SMTC match.

kudu out
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 11:30:58 (EST) 

kudu out
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 11:35:23 (EST) 

( Removed where it belongs - the Emporium.  Please, that is why the Emporium was set up in the first place, not to clog the Duty Roster with stuff for sale and wanted. )

I have done some dealing with Mike and he is
a square dealer. Others might also be able
to comment.

sl
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 15:19:33 (EST) 

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 16:33:55 (EST) 

They sent me some specifications and prices on the new composite material barrelled VS and Sendero.

Like I said in my earlier post today,anyone who wants a copy of it is welcome to it.Just drop me a line.
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 18:51:24 (EST) 

What did you do to Gooch? No Tripod nor Banjo to rest it on? Hope he headed EAST and not West or he'll be in
peteR <PNGREIFF>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 21:06:53 (EST) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Curious in , Ohio USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 21:43:19 (EST) 

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 22:37:34 (EST) 

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO USA - Saturday, January 16, 1999 at 08:54:40 (EST) 

1. Distance between ref pts/time in seconds = distance per second
(I like to use meters. 1 mil=3.375 MOA, or use meters and mil)

2. [Distance per second X 3600] / (5280=mph) or (1000=kph)
(Now you have the tgt speed in mph or kph. Actually, this part is not required. But once you build lead charts for you and your rifle it aids in quick ref, and it is more dramatic to say "I shot a 7 mph runner" than "I shot a 12 fps mover."

3. Get a time of flight chart from a ballistics program for your particular load. Multiply time of flight to range by the speed of the target. This gives your required lead. Here is where working in metric pays off.
Lead in meters x 1000 / range to tgt = lead in mils
-OR-
[Lead in feet / 12] / [range in meters / 100] = lead in MOA

Here are some ToF values for a 173gn, 7.62mm bullet at 2600fps, sea level and 60 deg F, 78% RH:
100m .13 sec
150m .20 sec
200m .27 sec
250m .35 sec

At 100m, a 3mph walker requires about a 7 inch lead from desired POI, a slow walker is half that, a jogger double, and a track star triple. This data is based on trapping, and is very general. Since people percieve movement differently, and have different reflexes, these numbers get you into the ball park, but you have to refine your personal leads. The technique works, we used it to shoot 9 inch wide movers out to 400m.

I hope this made sense. Any questions, just shout.
Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Saturday, January 16, 1999 at 11:52:25 (EST) 

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - 

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - 

...and there is always the other method:

Range in FEET X Target velocity (in FPS) divided by Muzzle Velocity in FPS equals LEAD in FEET. Of course, an adjustment would have to be employed for targets moving at an oblique angle.

In example: A target is moving at a 90 degree angle to you at 8 fps. He is 200 yards (600 feet)away and you are using Fed Premier 223 55 gr.

600 X 8=4800

4800/3250=1.47 ft (or, to make scope inputs easier .75 MOA)

This works great for the trapping method.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - 

For the Savage owners, shooters, lovers, there is a competion trigger sold by Sharp Shooter Supply. (419-695-3179) Don't know anything about it. Just saw the picture.

Yes sir reebob, the adjustments on the M3s do turn in the opposite direction of other Leupold scopes.

Pat M you still thinkin about coming out to Wyoming this fall?

Pat II
Lakin <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
north of area 51 N.M., UT, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 01:22:44 (GMT) 

He's all tucked into bed after being awake for about 48 hrs. He says he only saw a few trolls during the trip.

I'm sure he will be in here by Monday to drop you a line. FYI, his e-mail address is up and running now. gooch@stormmountain.com

See you all at the Shot Show.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 02:30:42 (GMT) 

Thanks.

Tim
Tim <kevinallin@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 06:16:40 (GMT) 

We all need to remember that these gun writers earn their living writing "product review articles with puff" to please their advertisers.... while at the same time, they pretend to be World Renown Experts and guru's of ANY specific weapon..... ( the fact that these guru's may or may not have ever seen or touched said weapon until they began writing about it a few weeks ago for that months magazine is not important. ) Think, have you EVER seen a bad review of a new product that is released to the market by one of the gun magazine's major national advertisers?

In FACT most of these "gun scribes" will have accumulated only 3-4 hours of actual "trigger time" prior to writing these wonderful and BS filled weapon system reviews. (At some nice, clean, peaceful, shooting range.)

The fact is that when the Polytech M1A was first imported into the U.S., the "gunwriters" as usual, asked for a few of them for "samples". Problem was, the Executives at Polytech told them to get screwed. As Polytech Ind. is about nine (9) times larger than ALL of the remaining U.S. firearms manufacturing firms added together..... they don't need to give away "free or trial samples". (They have sold these same weapons by the hundreds of thousands around the globe.)

Well, on the other hand, Springfield Armory is somewhat famous for shipping neat and new stuff around liberally to the gun press ( for the free exposure and advertisement) and THEIR sales guy's shipped one of their Super Match grade weapons, 3 Gen II scopes, mounts, etc. by next day air to the writer that just by chance performed the "side by side" torture test of the Springfield Vs. Polytech a few years back. ( But, they didn't adjust the Poly's gas system OR remove the heavy coat of shipping grease that was THICK inside the stock.) It "boiled".
 

I wonder if the Editors and the financial guy's at Peterson and the other major gun publishing firms may perhaps be a little bit inclined to give "favorable" reviews for products that advertise heavily in their magazines?

AND then, these writer's in turn conducted a very biased, sloppy unscientific, dishonest, and downright unfair comparison test of the Springfield and Chinese Polytech versions of this time proven weapon. DO YOU THINK THEY MAY HAVE A FINANCIAL INTEREST!!!!!!
 

I have several M1A's, and I paid about (4 times the $650) list price of the Polytech Chinese version for some of them. However, I've yet to have a failure or problem with any of the four Poly Chinese M1A's that I've dealt with and USED EXTENSIVELY. These have all fired at least 1200 rounds each (some more), they have been used in HP matches, to teach several kid's to shoot at the range, several weeks each year deer and hog hunting in merciless conditions (hilltops and cypress swamps). To date I have had NO problems with a single weapon regarding accuracy,reliability, metallurgy, headspace tolerance, or any of the other BS issues that have been tossed around.
 

I may just be lucky, but after finding the right load, tapering the receiver lugs and bedding them, and just a little "minor" tweaking,
they will all shoot between ½" and ¾" at 100 yards ALL DAY LONG using Leuopold scopes. ( If I do my part....)

It's amazing that the myth of the Chinese "soft" metal receivers is still alive and espoused as a valid issue. With today's environment of pointless litigation concerning "product liability".... No company would have even considered releasing a product to the U.S. market if it was truly as unsafe and prone to failure as the Polytech M1A's receiver. If these receivers had in fact been as soft ( low Rockwell hardness rating ) as some folks would have us believe.....these Chinese M1A's would have been catastrophically failing all over the country, the press would have a field day, and a whole bunch of guy's would be running around with a glass eye or two, a mean bunch of scars and a very happy lawyer.

OK guy's, I agree...if you have $2,000 to spend on a semi auto version of a tactical weapon for use in the spotters role....buy a Springfield Supermatch with the Krieger Hbar and be proud. But the Chinese version will shoot with it all day long for a lot less cash.

Craig, you may have really had a headspace "event" with your specific
weapon, but I bet you my ass it was a gun dealer or his "in-house" gunsmith that told you it was "bad" and to get rid of that Import Poly. I wonder who has it now? chuckle. Hell, I buy American most of the time, but these particular weapons are too good to pass up.

In closing, since a lot of guy's work for a living and are required to buy most their own tactical gear, at times we are forced to make some hard decisions, but they CAN be educated decisions..... Just be sure that you don't allow the "sales and marketing guy's" in the firearms business blow smoke up your ass and mislead you into overlooking what may be one of the best bargains in the .308 semi-auto market.

It may be that a dedicated shooter could buy a nice Poly M1A, add a fiberglass match stock (and bed it), top it with a good solid billet steel scope mount and some quality glass.....AND still manage to be able to buy that Remington PSS the same year without the wife cutting him off.

My 2 cents.

Watch 6
MAXX

MAXX <redneck08@hotmail.com>
Near Blue Eye, Arkansas, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 10:24:44 (GMT) 

DUUUDDDDEEEEEs! MAKKEE FIXXXEEE.............
 

MAXX,

CAREFUL SLINGING THOSE INSULTS DUDE, i DID A T&E ON A ASIAN IMPORT AND WOULD NOT OWN ONE. Yours shoots better than anything I've ever tested with the exception of a H&K PSG-1. Guess you got lucky man.

heck thats better shooting than my 700 police DM, what ammo did you use I need some to enhance my palsied skills.

peteR out

UNDUDE, YES! YOU'RE THE MAN! SLING IS FEMALE TOPS (EDITED FOR VIEWERS BY WRITER) AND THEN SOME. BE IN TOUCH!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 14:06:01 (GMT) 

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M14S_Eval.htm

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 15:36:17 (GMT) 

I must be buyin' the wrong rifles, or maybe I can't shoot fer' shit.

Hmmm... Skate-boarding??? Nah... I go watch "Sniper" and find out what I'm doing wrong.
 

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 15:38:42 (GMT) 

On the Chinese M14's:

I have owned one since 1989, a "hybrid", Chinese parts on a *gasp* FedOrd reciever (sold by Century Arms). I bought it as I was a married E4 at the time, and did not have much money. I bought the best I could afford, which was about $500 worth. I later (4 years) had the rifle reworked by Smith Enterprises in AZ. They re-heat treated the reciever and bolt, checked the headspace, etc. That ran about $300, and was worth it.
Point is, I have about $800 in the rifle...they have been going for between $600-$800 at the gunshows I have been to lately. Why spend that, plus another $300 or so to make it "right", when you could just buy the M1A from Springfield?
I dont use mine as a precision rifle...as long as I can keep all the rounds in the "A" or "B" zone at 300+ meters, Im happy. Its a battle rifle, not an M21.

Just a thought.
Grenadier2 <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
FireBase Bandit, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 19:22:11 (GMT) 

I've got a number of emails already expressing concern about the move. Let me address those here, despite the fact that they are not all directly related to the Roster:

1. Duty Roster refreshes, removing details typed but not yet submitted.
- Solved - REFRESH command removed. Apologies for those inconvenienced by this.

2. Bookmarks.
- Please do not think you'll have to change you bookmarks. Once the move is complete, a visitors that last visited before the move started won't even know we've moved - ALL WILL BE AS IT WAS!

3. Why are we moving?
- a) to provide a better service: faster access, better access to ISP support if something happens;
- b) more space ( now we can really put up a lot! )

4. Events and Emporium:
- Those still exist on the new site. The boards that exist here at this site is still for testing only - I'll go there after sorting out the Roster to see whether somebody has already used them. Too late now, I'll move them across tomorrow night as well.

I hope that answers the questions you might have. If not, please feel free to mail me at any one of the addresses listed at the top.

And I hope that you, the visitors, experience the benefits, and that it is not only for us laying really far off. Torsten, how's it look from your end?

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 20:44:22 (GMT) 

I have one of the honeycomb sunshades like what I believe you are refering to, but I don't use it any more. For my purpose, I don't like it. As a law enforcement officer I may be ask to work in low or artificial light and I have found that there is what I would call a signifigent loss of light transmitted through the scope (brightness) and in addition image sharpness is also deminished (fuzziness is increased). It might even be described as hazy. Some folks have told me that they don't see any difference when they use one, but that is not my impression. Try this, take one to the range and have a friend slide it into and bac out of place after you are focased on a grid type target at 100 yds. (or so, I use 200 yds.) and see what you think. Hope this answers your question.

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Nothing but MUD now that it is melting, West Virginia, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 22:23:23 (GMT) 

WOrse week Ive ever had. Ex wife split, said by to the kids, had the house packed up, drove to WV and blew a tranny. Someday this war is gonna end.

See ya'll later.

Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 22:48:17 (GMT) 

Gooch: Hang on in there. Things have a way of getting better as I'm sure they will for you. Just concentrate on your two kids and never ever let them forget who their father is. They are your claim to fame. No one can ever take your place. You are DAD!

About the post about the group shot with the Dragunov at 800 meters measuring 3 inches. I can not comment if that is in fact true, but I have met some Russian soldiers from WW2 that have claimed exceptional accuracy with the old Moisin Nagant, so I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the more modern Dragunov. I would just question the workmanship of anything which is produced in the old Soviet Union and the new Russia. Quality Control - Nyet!!

Al - Uncle Nunzio's nephew: Still going to the Sniper Sustainment course at the end of March?? If you are I'll be there with a couple of MGDs in my hand. Hope things are going well for you also. Wanna talk some - give me a call or I'll call sometime soon.

I have just received three boxes of the Hornady 178 grain bullets and have yet to load them up. I was wondering as to whether anyone out their has any pet loads for this bullet. I wa still thinking of using Varget but Has anyone tried out the Vit 550 powder with this bullets. All information is highly appreciated.

Darrell: How was skiing? And other extra curricular activities? Let me know - curious minds want to know - especially Andria!

Nobody is home this evening except Andria and myself. We have the house to ourselves. Fire in the fireplace and a chilled bottle of . . . Well, you guys figure it out!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Living here in Ignoramus-ville, Ohio, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 03:49:47 (GMT) 

I would like to know if any of the EURO shooters have had the chance to work with the Walther 2000 ?? For that matter, everyone seems to be using the 168, 175, or 178 gr bullets for distance...what about 155 for close, UNDER 500 yds work and what loads ?? Am looking for DGA out to 500...I DON'T HAve to reach 1000 !!!! heh heh heh
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Sweet Home, AL, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 04:33:39 (GMT) 

THANKS
EAGER PUP <F_GNLVR@HOTMAIL.COM>
GRAND FORKS, B.C., CANADA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 05:40:24 (GMT) 

WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN
EAGER PUP <F_GNLVR@HOTMAIL.COM>
B.C., CANADA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 07:21:01 (GMT) 

Torsten, your paint chips should be there shortly.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 08:07:28 (GMT) 

Much nicer like this, no?

As far as caliber choice, I would go with .308 unless:
1) You are rich.
2) You are dead to recoil.
3) You like rebarreling your weapon.
4) You like spending lots of time rolling your own match grade.

Just my point of view though.
Ed <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 11:59:09 (GMT) 

You made it, Mister Dude! "Let the Games Begin"

Grasshopper, a most excellent post on scope leads, my man!

All,

Maybe we should all differentiate between a semi-auto MBR (main battle rifle), and a bolt action sniper rifle.
Yes, They are out there, but maybe the 'twain should never meet? Anybody know of one that was not a flop in the big picture of military issuance? How about ABSOLUTELY (sorry Marius) repeatable accuracy from 200- 700 meters for first shots?

Ergonomics, You decide?
Tactical advantages, You decide?
Additional weight, You decide?
Repairs, You decide?

I'm not talking "coddled" match tuned rifles that never see the battle fields and are bench shot, or handled in the pre-requisite shooting jacket only. Real World - Real Life!
Me, I love the Garand (especially the new quasi-tanker variants in .308), can stomach the M-1A rifles, and really like the FN-FAL and FNC's. but for the main intent of current shooting interests with (Hopefully) predictable first shots give me my Dinosaur Remington bolt action.

Who was it that said "Shoot and Shoot often"?

There I feel better!

Chao!

peteR
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
ICE FOG CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 14:01:14 (GMT) 

Thanks,

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 15:42:20 (GMT) 

I just put a Leupold Vari-X II 3-9 scope on my Ruger 10/22. With the elevation dialed all the way up, it still shoots 5" low at 25 yards. So I'm thinking of getting a shim for the front rings. Is there some formula that gunsmiths use to determine the proper shim height, or is it just trial and error?

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 15:46:00 (GMT) 

Williams Specialties makes a set trigger setup for these.

Sorry, don't have the contact information for them anymore, nor have I used one.

They used to advertise in "Front Sight", the USPSA magazine, so if you know any of them speedy pistol shooters, they may have an old issue with the address.

Later,

Bruce
 

Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 15:52:38 (GMT) 

Eager Pup... Please don't write in ALL CAPS... I give some of us old timers an Excedren headache.

Rich... I had a three speed G3 (Stop, Fast, and Awful fast), and I found it fairly accurate for what it was, It was about as good as my Galil ARM .308... which is about 2" - 2.5" with 147gr machine gun ammo... never tried "match" ammo in the Galil... has anyone out had better groups w/match???
Pablito
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 16:13:01 (GMT) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 16:21:59 (GMT) 

Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 17:02:51 (GMT) 

Pablito: (and the rest) - if a pathway from your point along the way
via the internet to the other end (website, etc) pauses, goes dark, etc - Guess what - You will experience a pause as well.

For example, If we quickly look up over the berm from the 'Impact Area' - up range and spot where Pablito might be hiding:

1. Pablito comes from mags.net - so he will most likely be entering the internet somewhere very near that ip address....

2. nslookup mags.net
reveals:
Name: mags.net
Address: 209.140.80.6

3. Now, lets trace the pathway to where Pablito might be hiding:

traceroute 209.140.80.6

Tracing route to www.mags.net [209.140.80.6]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 219 ms 109 ms 78 ms 209.84.192.99
2 78 ms 94 ms 187 ms gw.doubled.com [209.84.192.1]
3 94 ms 171 ms 94 ms Loopback0.GW3.TCO1.Alter.Net
4 125 ms 218 ms 94 ms abovenet-tco-gw.customer.ALTER.NET
5 282 ms 125 ms 109 ms abovenet-155mbps-gw.vienna.good.net
6 125 ms 125 ms 500 ms vienna.hartford.good.net
7 109 ms 250 ms 109 ms mags2.hartford.good.net
8 907 ms 1703 ms 953 ms www.mags.net

4. The point here is that if there is a failure anywhere along this pathway during your session, surfing, posting to the roster, etc................ Now you know.

5. This happens throughout the day as anyone in those ISP locations performs maintenance, accidentally cuts a cable, etc.

6. 'Nuff said on that topic - I deal with this stuff every day - the roster is my escape from computes, networking, etc.....

7. Thanks gang,

Ken - from the Impact Area.
 

Impact Area <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 18:18:42 (GMT) 

Ed: Thanks for your opinion and info.

Bach Melick: There is a formula...but for the life of me I can't remember exactly what it is. Something like .001" shim equals 1"@100yrds. I am sure someone here will know what it is. Had CAP of my scopes shimmed and it definetly made a difference. Too much shim can overly stress the scope. Also heard about a set of rings...Burris, I believe, that have oval inseerts in the rings that allow for both elevation and windage adjustments. Not as cheap as shims but cheaper than tapered mounts. Also heard of guys using pieces of tin foil or beer cans for shims.
 
 

Eager Pup <F_GNLVR@hotmail.com>
a balmy -2C, B.C., Canada - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 18:21:57 (GMT) 

any of you sniperprofessors have any experiance with this program ?

"Ende"
torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 19:05:44 (GMT) 

Will your trace thingy work to "Get Sarge"????????????????????????

Bach,
First, remove the scope and make sure its reticle is centered in the scope body.
I know HUH? By-Gawd Dude have you flipped?
Nope!
Place a 1/2 or 1" dot, (Pabilto's muzzle covers work great) on a normal sheet of paper. Put this at 25 or 50 yards downrange from you. Center the reticle on the paper n' dot and slowly rotate the scope body clockwise adjust windage and elevation until the reticle stays centered on the dot. You can use Vee blocks, or a piece of wood with a 1" hole bored and then split in two equal halves to hold scope.
It could be done with the rifle secured in a vise and scope ring tops removed in a pinch. BTDT many times
I once had a Spaz work associate that used to set up rifles for T&E's without centering reticles, and caused me more grief than you could possibly imagine.
Start with scope, then go to base n mounts, shim as a last resort.

Brent, If a local firearms dealer can't help then try Mike Markovcy at: MTS@ACCESS.WEBCOMBO.NET and tell him your dilemna on White Feather ammo.
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, STILL FOGGY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 19:10:10 (GMT) 

Help !
torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 19:55:28 (GMT) 

thanks for the lesson, that should help some of us understand a bit better. Thanks also for the GREAT assistance you're providing.

All,
I think we should all give a big thank-you to Ken. When last did you see an ISP so involved in the issues relating to ANY site? Our previous server was Unix, this one is NT, so there's some stuff I don't know. I'm learning from Ken as we go along - all this will hopefully give us a better site after the teething problems have been sorted out.

Thanks for your continued support, and your understanding. Some things only come out when you really run the stuff. My limited tests were fine - but then I was only one doing them.

As I told somebody in private mail last night. If there is something wrong - BITCH TO ME ABOUT IT. Rather do that, tell me what is wrong. Then I know, and I can try and fix it. If you don't, and just leave, or accept it, how in tarnation am I going to know about it in the first place, and fix it? So, tell me. If it gets to be too much - I DO know where the DELETE button is on my keyboard... :-)

Pablito,
this message SHOULD come up with you favourite - ZULU! How's that look?

The multiple posts: don't worry about them for now. Whenever I see some I'll just remove them. I've also added a reminder at the top - use the RELOAD button before posting a second time. Hopefully Ken can help me as to how we can force a reload on the blinking link on the Thank-You page.

I wanted to do the Events and Emporium tonight, but I keep getting knocked off the old site. Even had to reboot so bad was the kick I got :-) My link from work is faster, so I'll attempt from there tomorrow.

Hang in there - we're advancing.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 20:32:14 (ZULU) 

G. Abbot... for 34mm rings try EAW rings... imported by

New England Custom Gun Service
438 Willowbrook Rd.
RR2, Box 122W
West Lebanon, NH 03784
Ph. 1-603-469-3450

Pablito
 

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 21:57:17 (ZULU) 

Please come back when your grammer skills have improved, and your Interservice-Bashing attributes have lessened. We are all here to trade knowledge and lessons!!!! Not insults or Jabs!!!!!!!

Marrius: Apologies ahead of time for the personal attack on RW.
 

out, kudu

kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 22:55:29 (ZULU) 

kudu out
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 23:13:33 (ZULU) 

Pat II
P.L. <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 23:39:06 (ZULU) 

Bach and Eager,

The formula is simple, but hard to put into print. It goes like this: (inches of change needed ÷ 3600) Xs the distance between scope rings (C-T-C).

For instance:
Suppose you want to change the point of impact by 25 Min. of Angle (which is 26.179" at 100 yds). Divide 26.179" by 3600. This equals .0072 inches. Now multiply .0072 by the distance between the rings, we'll say 6 inches. This equals .0436". Therefore the shim thickness needed in this case is .0435". Now that we know just what is needed, the best way (in my opinion) to execute the deed is to put a very narrow shim in the lower third of the scope ring. This will help center the scope without binding it. Now put a dab (¼" ball) of epoxy on the shim and also into the front ring. Insert the scope (waxed) and press down lightly. Take it out the next day and clean up the overage. This will "bed" the scope and will solve several problems at one time. The scope will now fit the rings perfectly, and the rifle and scope will be unstressed.

Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 00:09:48 (ZULU) 

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 00:30:59 (ZULU) 

PeteR: Sarge would pro'lly get pissed if the direction to his hide were traced.

Marius: Snipercountry is one of about 15 sites that I carry - but I like to hang out on this one.

Ken ;)
 
 

Impact Area <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 01:06:15 (ZULU) 

Thanks,

Justin
Justin <Just_it@hotmail.com>
CT, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 01:36:39 (ZULU) 

Bach - Shimming a scope can be done but if it winds up requiring more than .020 you can actually bend the scope body. The Burris Signature rings with the Pos-Align offset rings can solve this problem. A .020 offset or shim will move the scope approx. 14 minutes of angle.

Good luck

Bruce Buell, NCDS

Bruce Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jax, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 02:02:12 (ZULU) 

Also curious if the most accurate load at 100yards will also be the most accurate beyond? If not, why?

.308 reloaders may want to try this load if you are looking for an inexpensive bullet. Hornady 190gr. btsp....Win.brass.....BR-2 primers
....40.0gr IMR 4895 **MAX. LOAD** It consistantly shoots under .5MOA aat 100 yards and has shot as small as .269"
 
 

Eager Pup <F_GNLVR@hotmail.com>
B.C., Canada - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 03:15:50 (ZULU) 

Also, JB Bore Compound and it's variants, are also used. Do you scrub the bore with JB every time? or ocassionally, i.e. every x00 rds?

I scrub the bore with JB after each trip to the range, even if it is only for 30-40 rds. I am now wondering if I over clean. It seems to take 15 - 20 rds to 'settle in' the next time out.

I know this will thrill you 'one-holers,' but I shoot a Ruger M77 Mk II stainless that has been bedded and the barreled action frozen.

I most certainly appreciate any/all help/advice.

Larry
Sewerpiper <skporter@arn.net>
Sanford, Tx, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 03:20:33 (ZULU) 

Gone but not forgotten !!

This may not be Exactly "sniper related" but he did have CHARACTER !!

Out Here !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Sweet Home, Al, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 03:46:03 (ZULU) 

Pat L.
Hey Bud hows things out west?? You bet!! I plan on going back to Wyoming again in August. I hope to see you there too. I talked to Dave the other day and he said the dates will be the 6th, 7th, 8th of August. Should be a little cooler then(HA)

To All,
Thanks for the info on the lead of moving targets!! I guess it all comes down to practice but as someone stated, how do you practice it when you dont have a mover available.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 14:46:00 (ZULU) 

Sporting clays with a sniper rifle?, You Da Man! :-)
I agree the two best ways to learn leads are the clay pigeons sports (with a shotgun dudes!) or a running target type event like them thar fancy BB gunners do in the Olympics. Yee-Haa!

Doc, I like the "moving tire" concept, the "frame" would last a heck of a long time. A range I used to frequent had sections of fire hose to hang steel plates after spending BIG BUCKS for a years supply of chain.

Bach, A Rightous decision and good luck with re-mount on that "R.....", "Riu...", "Ruuu", "Ruuuge" (still can't say it!)rifle. ;-o

Sewerpiper Dude,
Cleanliness is next to Godliness, but we're the "Great Unwashed" here.
try Shooters Choice or Rem-Clean every fifty rounds, MRBULLET is right as usual! Too much is not a good thing.

Chao!

peteR
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SUN-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 16:02:01 (ZULU) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 16:02:32 (ZULU) 

Larry...
I agree with what Pat said...
... if you "Clean" with JB bore paste, you will "never" break in your barrel... each time you run paste through the barrel, you roughen it again... JB is an abrasive. If it's a 30 cal now... eventually you will wind up with a 31 cal.
JB Bore paste was designed to clean pistols and revolvers that had bad leading (from real lead!). What we are dealing with, is powder fouling, (easy to clean) and sometimes copper wash.
If you clean often... every 30-40 rounds, then all you need is a standard bore cleaner like Hoppe's #9, or some of the others that are similar. #9 (and the others) have a mild copper cleaner in them also... that's why the patches will come out green. It will remove the powder gook, and mild copper wash. You will never need anything stronger, "IF" you clean that often (after your bbl is polished from being broken in).

If you shoot a LOT between cleaning... like two-three day matches, where you shoot hundreds of rounds, and can't clean... you may find that a quick cleaning with #9 type cleaners isn't enough... you can tell if it's not enough because the last patches keep coming out with a trace of "GREEN"... you can wet the bore with cleaner and let it stay wet over night, and finish cleaning the next day.
If you really can't get the copper out, use a solvent like Hoppe's "Copper solvent"... let stand over night and that will clean the worst of them. Midway, and Sinclair, both sell chamber plugs (the same ones) that are like a steel cartridge with an "O" ring. Put the plug in, stand the rifle on it's butt, and fill the barrel with solvent... if it's really bad.

You don't want abrasives in the barrel... JB was never intented for what you're using it for... I wouldn't let the stuff in my house.
... my 2 cent's
Pablito
 
 
 
 

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 16:13:29 (ZULU) 

Don't torque "Hex head" screws, they will strip... they are very soft. Replace them with "TORX"® screws, they will take 65 in-lbs... Leupold rings and bases come with the "TORX"® screws, and if you have your rings/bases from before they started using them, call Leupold, and they will send you a set of replacement screws. Put some "CLP" on the threads, or you won't be able to get them out in a few years.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 16:26:07 (ZULU) 

We've been kicking around the idea of starting the match at 1000 yards and working forwards, instead of the other way around, to make the cold-barrel zero a larger factor, but I'm not sure it will make much difference -- I don't think any of us can hit consistantly at 1000 yards anyway.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 20:38:14 (ZULU) 

I'm not a REAL sniper but I have used the Tasco Tactical scope quite a lot from 50 to 1,000 yards. My scope is a 20X with rear focus.

Out of the box, I had two complaints with the scope. The W&E clicks were very muddy from the much oversize o-rings that the manufacturer placed under the knobs. The optics, while very good, were not what I was accustomed to from Leupold and B&L scopes. The muddy W&E knobs were removed,thinner o-rings added (and lubricated), and now the scope is very satisfactory.

For my use there was not life on the line, but there were dollars involved. I really gave the scope a wringing out. The rifle was zeroed at 500 yards. The scope was taken to the stop in every direction and back to zero. All four shots, when returned to zero, were exactly where they should have been. This was done a number of times. The next test was moving three minutes in each direction, firing a shot, and returning to zero. All shots being exactly where they should have been. Over the long term it will be interesting to see how this scope holds up, but it is mechanicly one of the finest I've seen.

This scope has not been subjected to immersion in water, but certainly has been used in the wet without problems.

For the dollar, I would say that it is a great value. My scope not only paid for itself in 100 shots, it paid for the whole rifle! What more can you ask for?
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Thawing - SE, Illinois, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 23:56:18 (ZULU) 

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:03:21 (ZULU) 

You want Zen? It doesn't come from a dirty gun. I can't sleep at night
if my guns are dirty. I can hear the crincle-crackle of carbon buildup
and the hiss of corrosion from the guns in my safe and I have to get up
and clean them before I can go back to sleep. I clean guns that haven't
been shot in months just because I know they haven't been cleaned
either. True Zen, I believe, is achieved through concentrated effort. I
don't chant like the Bhudist monks in their monastaries in Tibet, But I
can achieve a blissful trance-like state while spending an hour cleaning
the gas system on an AR-15 until I don't see any carbon any where.
Nirvana! Ok, maybe it is just the solvent fumes, I always forget to open
a window. Anyway, it works for me. Regards Alan K.

I am in agreement with the Zenlike balance-- the Yin and Yan of new oil
to lived-in function. I have also found that a truly nasty blackbore
will oft-times respond to a gentle cleaning with Brasso. There is less
abrasion to Brasso (and less chance of damage) than there is to a steel
bore-brush and it will clean all manner of gloop out of the bore. I use
the Brasso Heresy frequently on black-bores with healthy rifling.
Personally, I rather like the ''well-used train track'' shine to the
''knock-yer-eyes-out'' ain't-never-been-shot chromed super-nova look.
-kirbyTheOG
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:20:32 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:31:17 (ZULU) 

Grasshopper... If you don't trust CLP on your mounts, then don't use it. It will not migrate anywhere, (unless you soak the gun in the stuff), and if you worked out the load in PSI on a 6-48 screw torqued to 65 in-lbs... it works out to some eleventy seven thousand PSI... Properly installed bases and rings DON"T "work" loose, whether you use hex or any other decent screw... if the are positioned so they can't move under load or recoil, they can't "work" their way loose.
However, there have been slews of rifles that have been ruined because the screws have broken off when removing a scope... a very expensive proposition... and Loctite is one of the main culprits.

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:36:15 (ZULU) 

Go to one of the industrial tool websites such as:
http://www.mscdirect.com/index2.htm

Order their 4000 page catalog (free), and then you can order online.

Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:39:07 (ZULU) 

What I've read it appears that some of the most succesfull WW-II snipers did use somewhat "Plain Jane" guns and did well.

Here are the top three that I've read of:

1. Simo "white death" Häyhä, Finnish, 500+? kills, 7.62X54R, Finnish Mosin-Nagant variant, Iron sights !!!!!!

2. Nikolai Yakolevich Ilyin, Russian, 496 kills, 7.62X54R, Mosin Nagant.(most likely 91/30)

3. Erwin König, German, 400+? kills, 8mm Mauser (8X57 IS), several german sniper rifles.

How this is possible, I'd like to hear bein' explained by the dudes who have van loads of laser range detectors, fancy guns showing minimal wear and certain knowledge that 7.62X54R isn't any good beyond 150 yards and thus Dragunov is nill threat ;)

Hitting ipsc paper targets at 1/2 mile with Finnish TAK-m/85 sniper rifle based on MN action convinced me that things made possible by more sophisticated equipment are beyond my not so great abilities.

Off course it would be nice to have a Sako TRG-41 in .338LapuaMagnum but would I benefit from it's potential ? I don't think so.
So I rather spend me pennies on ammo, and pop away with my merry old shoota wich is a thing modified from ancient MN actioned UIT free rifle event gun.

This is an agenda that I feel many others that has to do other things than just practise all day long,like study or work, would benefit the most. IMHO.

Teuwo.
 

Teppo Uotinen <uotinen@lut.fi>
Wilmanstrand, Finnland - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:46:02 (ZULU) 

Pablito
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:46:49 (ZULU) 

The (4) small #8 screws on the top of the 30mm ring can be torqued to 20 inch pounds and the (4) small #6 screws on the top of the 1" ring can be torqued to 10 inch pounds. If the base uses four #6 screws they can be torqued to 15 inch pounds These inch pounds settings are not large numbers. Do not tighten any more then necessary as it could damage your scope. PLEASE CHECK YOUR TORQUE WRENCH TO MAKE SURE IT IS INCH POUNDS AND NOT FOOT POUNDS!

Only the large cross bolt that attaches the ring to the base should be torqued to 65 inch pounds.

www.shadow.net/~mwg
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:53:48 (ZULU) 

I am going to severely cut back on my use of JB and stick with the good ole Military Bore cleaner followed by a dry patch or 2 and military gun oil.

Again, THANKS!

Larry
Sewerpiper <skporter@arn.net>
Sanford, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 03:02:23 (ZULU) 

Back to M1A/M14 rifles for a minute.
While shooting last time, I let a buddy shoot my S.A. M1A with cheap UMC ammo. While shooting it, there were times when it would slam-fire. This hasn't happend with match ammo, but it still bothers me that it has done it with other ammo.
Can someone give me the low-down on how to cure this problem?

Al O.
In the words of PeteR, the ski trip was a bogus wash-out due to rain during the warm spell, but the week-end ended in a most excellent way!
We're going to reschedule the ski trip. I've got details coming to you and your better half. What can I say, Al? I'm hooked!!!
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 09:11:27 (ZULU) 

Are you confusing slamfires and doubling? They are two different things. If you had a real slamfire your rifle would almost certainly have been disabled. And most likely you would have been too. Sounds like you have trigger problems, i.e. hammer hooks, something along this line. This is called doubling.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 12:28:28 (ZULU) 

I've been shooting moving target, olympic style and local events, for 20 years.

The best reticle for moving target in the field are lead dots or heavy horisontal bars. Lead should be calculated from what type of ammo you are shooting and the speed of a running man (full speed) at 90deg. (If you only plan to shoot at walking targets the leaddots should be adjusted accordingly. Remenber that most people shoot better with the target in front of the aimingpoint in the reticle.)

A .308 with 168gr bullet needs roughly 24moa distance between POI/centerline and leaddots/posts to hit a running man at 100, 200 or 300m. If he joggs or walks you just put the target somewhere between centerdot and leaddot/post.

The .308/168gr combination is arguably the worst round for running targets. The chanses of hitting increases out of proporson as the muzzlevelocity increases. The leaddotdistance for .308/150gr/2800fps is about 22moa. 125grNBT/3100fps and .223/55gr/3100fps are 20moa. The higher the MV gets the less guesswork you get. The real champions for longrange moving target are rounds like 22-250 or .300WM loaded with 150gr bullets at 3500fps.

The values are ofcourse not linjear(?) but a set of compromizes. Everything counts. MV's, MV-deviation, BC's, etc.

A variable scope, reticle in rear focal plane, with leaddots can be adjusted for diffenent moa-leads with the powersetting. 22moa at 8X is 24moa at 6X and 20moa at 10X, etc. The numbers are not correct but you get the picture. A scope with the reticle in the first(objective) focal plane will have constant lead whatever powersetting.

A top class international moving target shooter gets 1-1.5moa 15 shot groups in competition. And he starts with rifle at hip. Target crosses the range in 2.5 or 5 seconds. He can not raise his rifle before he can see the target. A new shooter needs 10-15000 rounds to get the basics right.

Shooting at moving targets should ALWAYS be done unsupported with LONG arm, shotgun-style.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 12:30:08 (ZULU) 

I don't think many duty roster regulars would bash the Moisen- Nagant rifles they have established a most excellent reputation for their application in ITTAPDS (Individually Targeted Anti-Personnel Projectile Delivery Systems), Especially a UIT version, aren't they uh-tuned or blueprinted? The figures you give are World War II related right probably siege or city fighting, my euro-history is most poorly lacking?

Dragunov, uh-Ain't shot the "original", did the Chinese thang w "match ammo", rather have a "Rrr...", "Ruuuug","Ruuuggh" :-) in a dudely word "BOGUS!" Finnish Dragunov version; seen one, gnarly [most excellent} workmanship.

Like the most Finnish Dude says: It ain't what ya got dudes, its what you can do with it that counts" A MOST EXCELLENT REALITY CHECK

Sarge,
I got a Sears inch pounder #44593, never could stand the idea of spending a lot of money for a fixed tool that may not give a desired or found "sweet" setting. Tee handles jobs are good for the field pack though. Ron N's got the idea, "Lets Go Net-Surfin Now" DUUUUUUUDE.

Wheres the Gooch-Meister? Speak to us Most By-Gawdly one!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Smokin' Barrel City, bY-gAwD, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 12:31:40 (ZULU) 

The barrel is VERY massive octagonal custom jobbie that has chamber shoulder and forcing cone set for use of Lapua D-166 bullet loaded
military (sponsorship) ammo that Aatto used to pop away with it.

Stock is allso UIT 300 compliant thang, barrel/action combination bedded in freefloating the barrel. Some bedding media is left to the stock's barrel groove and then honed away to tune the free resonating length and thru it's "natural frequency" the resonance of the barrel in order to achieve the optimum for the load shot (allways VKT/D166)
A bit like having a "once set" BOSS :)

I actually haven't bench tested the gun and allways shoot the same loads that it was build for with the exception that since D166 isn't available any more I need to shoot D46 bullets, I haven't tested the groupings due to total lack of interest in such, but the bullets seem to land pretty much where my shaky hands try to guide them.

Too bad that it doesn't meet rules nowadays due to overweight but yet again I am not that great a shooter so ... :)

I have no experience with chinese dragunov, only the 56S (normal ak-47 clone) wich was quite horrendous, while trying to fire it one could hear squeelsh and sqrueeks from the trigger mechanism...
The pull was so heavy that I allmost lost colour vision from mah left eye during it ;)
An easy cure is to dump all trigger components and change to Finnish RK62/76 assy.

As an adectode I'd like mention that '98 Finnish ipsc riffle championship was won with 56S. The main idea of the champ was to shoot with one untill it starts fall apart too much, screw off his excelent muzzle brake and the Finn-o trigger group ditch the junk and get a new one :) Seemed to work. Many of the others shot RK95s.

I hope my english doesn't bug the regulars, been exposed to fellow clubman an english chapper who left in horror when they banned shootas in there.(Okay his Finnish G/F might have got somethang to do with it :)

Heh never tried surfing but I suppose that elbow-down snowboard carves equal the thing lackin' the unfrozen water & the waves.

So lezz go grind our sleeves ! :)

PS: Has any one studied the effects of low temperature on gear ?
I've noticed that chill and dense air does allkindsa funny things on o-rings in scopes and affect muzzle velocity and projectile flight path even considering the lowered V(0). Since I'm a bit of fancy pants student I've been out shooting only at -32F but I presume that this reliability of equipment under enviromentall stress thing made for example this Häyhä chap to use iron sights. Considering that they didn't have a choice regarding the weather under which they went doin' their thing. Remaining in practise while enjoying -60F temperature seems to task optics and other fine mechanics quite a lot.

Mr.HäyhäDidn't take part in urban combat here can be found a some sorta brescription of the enviroment in whichlike most of the Russo-finn fighting tookplace:http://members.xoom.com/dstanton/Mosinpage.html
there should be a link "White death" despite the corny name it contains objective data of one battle and the conditions in general.

Yeps. Teuwo =;)
hmmm Micro$uck exploder seems to be tilting again so I must hit the submit button again even if riskin' eternal damnation due to double posting... If it takes place, sorry folks. wrote the above too long to loose it :)
 
 
 
 

Teppo,Uotinen <uotinen@lut,fi>
Wilmastrand, Finnland. - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 16:03:07 (ZULU) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 16:07:29 (ZULU) 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 17:59:51 (ZULU) 

~Polaris
Jim S. <sr60@hotmail.com>
Pittsburgh, Pa, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 20:54:58 (ZULU) 

If you're talking about the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10 LRM3, take a look at the 'In Review' page here at SC. Scott Powers has a very good review of this scope posted there. It may be a little difficult to read due to the background pattern, but hang in there. It'll be worth it. In fact, it looks like I'm going to have to start saving my pesos.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 20:55:10 (ZULU) 

What's the deal with elastic on the G-suits? I'm building one right now and I'm wondering where the stuff is supposed to go. I've read in a couple of books that "any good ghillie suit has lot's of elastic". It makes sense, but where is it to be applied and in what manner? secured to the netting?, in loops, straps, is it to be glued on?

Any input appreciated.
Casey <caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
Sagebrush, Nevada, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 23:31:33 (ZULU) 

You're at the right place my man!

Way cool name, did you check Hot Links n Cold Tips? Someday it will probably again be updated with the wealth of data thats passed through over the last quarter.
At this point I think most of the regulars are too tired or too "medicated" to keep feeding the same stuff again, n' again, n'again .......................
Check daily and learn, many most excellent sniper and sharpshooting dudes hang here, as its the "in place" and nothing compares.

Chao for now!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 00:13:06 (ZULU) 

~Polaris

Jim S. <sr60@hotmail.com>
Pittsburgh, Pa, USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 01:49:25 (ZULU) 

The M1A is not going to be my primary rifle, that's the Rem. 700
but what I would like to have is a good, reliable "battle" rifle that is accurate enough to use as a spotter weapon, or a rapid medieum range "sniper" system.

One thing that I've tossed around some is the idea of dumping the M1A and picking up the AR-10. My M-14 mags could be configured to work it with the AR-10, but I haven't heard too much about how the AR-10 is compared to the old, M14-M21-M25-DMR rifle. Big key-word here is RELIABILITY. Accurate shooting out to 600 yards, but when the S##t hits the fan too close to home, it'll be able to throw some lead.
" A good SPOTTER RIFLE"

I know that some of you out there has got tons of knowledge about this very subject.
REMEMBER, if everyone here pitched in their two cents worth on the matter, we'd have a lot of...........BEER MONEY!!! or something like that;-)

Pete R. It would be "most-welcoming" to have you hook-up on this wave and surf on such matters, DUDE!!! This whole thing has me feeling "totally dismal"
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Oh, so cold here in, IL., USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 05:16:22 (ZULU) 

Sarge, what happened to the Roswell net address?
bills page <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 05:21:39 (ZULU) 

JB
JB <bartran@montana.com>
MT, USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 05:26:37 (ZULU) 

OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Still In, AL, USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 06:27:48 (ZULU) 

Ron... slamfires are common in heavy auto weapons, if used with primers that have too thin a cup, and/or too sensistive a pellet... and slamfires DON'T result in the disabling of the weapon, or shooter.
Using Fed Match primers in my M21, if I removed a normaly cycled, but unfired round, there was a substantial "dent" in the primer. I switched to CCI #34 Mil-spec primers, and the slamfiring stopped.

As D. West says... "and the firing pin is hitting." This is slamfiring.

I have not found a noticable difference in the group sizes with Fed Match 210M's, and CCI #34's when used in the M21, and in Tactical bolt guns like the PSS's, M70's, etc. If I used the same load in both the bolt gun and M21, I'd use #34's in both, and make one standard load... but I shoot a different load in the M21, so only it gets the #34's.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 10:58:04 (ZULU) 

D.Terry,
Your action should be fine to build a rifle off of,you may however want to consider making it a BDL so you can drop your rounds in case of a jam in the magazine. As far a barrels go I would not try to go cheap because you will get what you pay for!! The price for a top quality barrel is not that much more than the "Cheaper" barrels. A stainless is about the same as a crome moly when you figure you will have to pay to have it blued so go stainless. I would recommened Hart,Schneider, Shilen or Lilja there are a lot of good barrels but the important choice is the gunsmith. Find one who builds guns for a living not one who fixes guns and occasionally rebarrels a gun. Just my thought on this for what it's worth.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 14:23:22 (ZULU) 

Just something to think about.
Davin
USA - Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 23:34:54 (ZULU) 

I just got this from Rod Ryan of Storm Mountain Training Center.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Info on the 2nd Annual Carlos Hathcock Charity Sniper Competition has
been posted to the events board. Please check it out and enter this
event. All money that comes in goes right to the Gunny. He still needs our assistance.

We are currently registering shooters and info packets will go out
around May.

Rod

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There you have it folks. You asked for it, you got it! Contact SMTC for details.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 22, 1999 at 03:38:55 (ZULU) 

I have a ***WARNING*** for the group.

I was listening to the NPR (National public Radio) station. Heavy duty libs, but they carry the Impeachment Trial live and I happened to tune in a little early just in time to hear a Mr. Tom Diaz of the Violence Policy Center discussing the law suites his group is sponsoring against the firearms manufactures and doing the usual liberal whinning about high capacity handguns, semi-auto (so called) assault weapons and guess what else, (you get the cookie if you guessed right) "Sniper Rifles". Seems people are purchasing rifles capable of shooting long distances with accuracy. So, Tommy said that his Violence Policy Center don't like that and is going to begin going after the "Sniper" rifles for "Public Safety" reasons. Oh and I shouldn't forget to mention that he showed a great concern for the "Combat training centers" that are teaching people to shoot in combat situations. Seemed to be very upset about those training centers and doesn't think we should be learning those nasty little things.

Please forgive any speeling errors and bad grammar-I be Govnt taught.

I'll go back to lurking now. Thanks.
JimmyG <jimg@mlode.com>
California, USA - Friday, January 22, 1999 at 05:47:34 (ZULU) 

Varget has performed the best for me in 260 with molyed Berger 140vld seated to just touch or approx 0.010" into lans. It did okay in 142 MK and did very well with 140 mk, but seating depth( 0.010" off lans) was significant for accuracy with the 140gr MKs. The 142 MKs seem to like N160 at 44.0 gr seated 0.010" off lans. So far I've settled on 38 or 39 gr Varget for the 140 vld and 44.0 N160 for 142 MK. The 140 does well w/ 38.0 gr Varget or 37.0 gr N135. I'm still not really satisfied w/ a load for the 140...yet.

Also, I have demonstrated it a number of times, as well as read it in a place or two, re: VLDs need at least 200 yd. to, I believe the phrase is "go to sleep", so I don't think 100yd is an accurate barometer to load test when working w/ Berger vld bullets. I'm pretty well convinced that 200yds (300 would be better) does allow the Bergers to show their stuff.

You mentioned you have worked w/ non-molyed bullets. Really, all of the testing I've done has been w/ molyed bullets.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Friday, January 22, 1999 at 05:50:26 (ZULU) 

Titanium Firing pins. Don't do it an AR type weapon. One pierced primer and bye bye to pin. Pierced primers are common with this weapon and high presure handloads.

Sniper weapons are next on the list to be restricted. Look at Remington, PSS is no longer a listed item. If they get legislation passed they could restrict almost all weapons in the future. Not good Dudes.

Got Petes Tripod mount and like the thing. I will say that this is perfect for Urban L.E. work. Get one and you will be happy.

Well all for now. The UnDude.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, January 22, 1999 at 16:34:04 (ZULU) 

Does anybody on this site other than five or six guys, actually shoot Tactical rifles, and/or tactical matches, or is/was LE or Military???
This is sounding a hell of a lot like a benchrest/woodchuck/deer hunting/general reloading site, with a minor comment about Tac shooting once in a while!

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 22, 1999 at 18:19:05 (ZULU) 

TorF,
I lost the info you had told Jeff about on the 140 and 142 MK. I need to know how fast I will have to push them to keep the same ballistics cam as the 300WM on my M3LR. I know I can just use the MOAs, Scott, but since I am tailoring a load for the rifle, hey, why not(HA). Have you tried any of the faster burning powders with the heavier bullets??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail>
USA - Friday, January 22, 1999 at 20:32:00 (ZULU) 

PS: Still haven't received SMTC information!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 22, 1999 at 23:42:33 (ZULU) 

Pabilito is right in we need to get to basics. Does anyone know the difference between a Basic Sniper Class and an Advanced Sniper Class. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE thats it in a nut shell. Get to the range and feel the trigger. Bedding compounds, Molly Coats and Bore Coats be dammed, Trigger time is what we all need. That is how we learn to estimate range, read wind and hit what we aim at.

Back to my hide, making sniper slings that work instead of looking pretty. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif., USA - Saturday, January 23, 1999 at 03:06:25 (ZULU) 

HotTips? I will get to that again soon - but now I'm busy on other partsof the site, all of which will be revealed in the week.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Saturday, January 23, 1999 at 13:11:57 (ZULU) 

My apologies for the double post. I shouldn't operate machinery when that tired.

Torsten and Steve(nato):

Millienium Year Application Software System. That's a hoot. I emailed you Steve.

Bolt:

You asked if MWG rings and bases were adequate. I have a set and I think they'll do fine. Very well made. Very strong. Now if I can just find a way to get to SMTC sometime this year.....

Mike:

You make slings? If you get the time, could you email me w/ some info.

Pat:

I saw your post to TorF. Just a minute ago I emailed you a post that he made last July re: M3 cams and 6.5mm bulletts. I saved it as Word97.doc back then; and copy/pasted in the email window and sent it to you. The formatting may be shot but the text ought to be intact. Hope this is what you were asking about.

Jeff A.
 
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Saturday, January 23, 1999 at 18:13:09 (ZULU) 

Pablito
Pablito
USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 00:03:12 (ZULU) 

For the one that asked about slings. I make two a nylon and a leather model sniper sling. Nylon is cheaper and will probably outlast us all. Nylon is $50.00 to anywhere in lower 48 states. I am waiting for new materials for next batch. I hope to sell them through Storm Mountain when done. Leather is a pain to make and if you have more money than you can stand $100.00 will get one, or I will sell you the parts to turn your M1903 sling into one. The slings are a quick connect/disconnect type cuff and secure carry sling. A few of you have them so far. If any of you are handy and want to make your own I will give info, but be warned if you don't have a machine you are looking at about three or four hours on a nylon model

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif., USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 01:22:39 (ZULU) 

Pablito, yes indeed sir...

on the shirts, if someone here does that kind of thing great, if not there is a guy over at subguns.com that does shirts and I'm sure he would be willing to work something out. This is a great idea, alot of people won't send a $10 check but will buy a $30 shirt.
Rich <dick2@clatkston.com>
WA, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 02:09:51 (ZULU) 

OK, as I told someone earlier, the first one that says "I told you so" rates a TAC NUC suppository!!
I got a used Remington 700VS in .308 today (Used?? not much!! bright clean, shiney bore). Yes the defender of Savage bought a Remington! After mounting my Tasco SS10x42 (standard Leupold one piece base and 30mm rings for now) took it to the range. A patch through the barrel came out CLEAN!! Ran a second patch - still clean! So using the same target load I've been using in the Savage proceeded to zero. 20 rounds later (don't know if that's good or not) it is zero'd at 50 then 100yds. Then got down to some "serious" shooting. New gun I'm not use to, trigger WAY LIGHTER than I'm use to, I start shooting some 5 shot groups I could cover with a quarter. Most of this was me as at least 3 of the 5 in each group could be covered with a dime! OK, OK I admit it I like this Remington!! Damn that was hard to say! BUT I will admit this is a FINE shooting weapon! Tomorrow I'm going back to the range and get in some quality time with this weapon - now how many 100's of target .308's did I have loaded??

Sarge disappears with his finger on the firing mechanism and waits!

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 03:25:48 (ZULU) 

No, I ain't a sniper or an LE, but I was on diesel subs.

Dollars for Carlos...

Larry
Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Sanford, Tx, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 03:53:28 (ZULU) 

I bought my first AR15 today, a Colt flat top with 20" barrel. I bought a Simmons 3x9x40 and Tasco rings, I know this is barely adequate but the budget was blown on the rifle. I will put a decent scope on it when more money comes in.

I have no previous experience with thse rifles, any useful information would be helpful. I use Remington Bore Cleaner on my 700VS, can it be used on the AR or will it clog the gas port?

Thanks for the help.
Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, Tx, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 06:03:58 (ZULU) 

Tactical? Here's a site for you man. Check it out:

T.R.G.T.

It's looking pretty good.
 

Cory <ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 09:25:04 (ZULU) 

A MOST EXCELLENT IDEA, bY-gAwD DUDE SAYS A MOST AWESOME YES!
BUT UH NO EXPLODING HEADS OH-TAY I'M A SENSITIVE STOMACH KINDA DUDE.

X-RING, IN. RE. IBID (LAST E-MAIL TRANSMISSION 10-2?)

JEFFY A.
Get the UN-DUDE SLING MAN, MOST TACTICALLY COOL, I'M Awaiting the Postal guy delivering my production version featuring "RICH CORYNTHIAN LEATHER TO MATCH THE SEATS OF my new Chrysler CORR-DOH-BAH!" ;-)

Ken, the Impact Dude,
Theres usually a L-E/Security show in balmer, md. each jan/feb I believe. I don't think shooters need a Passport/Visa to cross md. state lines but you may wish to check first!

'Lito

Chill dude, Breath in and out, in and out, ahh thats better!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-WET-CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 12:09:34 (ZULU) 

Works for me dude...
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 12:12:47 (ZULU) 

Like MOST EXCELLENT and the Dude did not even say "I told you So......!" I Like Nam Pla or Nuc Mam better than Tac-Nuc with my boardwalk fries! Better yet some fresh Habenero paste with butter sauted snow peas N' grilled possum medallions. Yummy!
Yep, now you can officially run with the Big Dawgs, no baling wire, Duct tape, Loc-Tite, Field carry kit of Marine Tex, or Outers Foul-Out between shot strings!

AND

Mr. Trace just notified he's officially called off "The "Sarge Hunt"
 

later,

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 15:45:59 (ZULU) 

and as for "the fact that he thinks that he needs to zero the scope at 100 yards for it to work right."

Steve, it is clear to those on this site that know what a tactical scope is, that you don't. I doubt if you have ever handled one, I know you haven't ever shot one. In setting up a tactical scope, it is first zero'ed at 100 yards or meters, then the BCD cap is installed at "1", and then it is zero'ed at all ranges. You shoot at 600 yards, you set "6" andd you are zero'ed at 600 yards... you don't ever "hold over" and you don't "say your zeroed a 200 yards, at 400 you hold over 16.5 inches" like you said some time back.

I shot against Paul's team at the West Point Inch'on range last November, if you can call that raggity-ass'd bunch a team, and I invite you to come up and join us... I think you will learn something... and that Russian ex-sniper on his team, will clean your clock.
 

Longshadow <Longshadow@usa.net>
USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 16:14:43 (ZULU) 

Pablito ?

Last time I checked.....there weren't any "Tactical/Snipers Only" policies on the Duty Roster !

It's a cryin' shame that you have to see comments here that aren't of interest to you.

Well I have news for you.....there's plenty of "Tactical" readers that don't want to read your comments on "getting anti-reflective coatings for glasses" or one of the many useless references to "coffee".

There's probably not one person on the Roster, who's every comment is of interest to everyone.

That's not the point !

There are many different opinions posted here ! Many years of shooting experience (Tactical or otherwise) !!!

That's what makes this forum so great ! That's why so many people can learn so much !

I'm not aware of a forum that has as many participants with the combined shooting knowledge that we have here on the Roster.

We all have to scroll through many entries to extract the ones we deem worthy !!!
 

I know ...that you don't want to claim that you are the "Premier Fountain of Tactical Knowledge on the Planet" !!! Because if you did ...you would probably get your nuts kicked off by someone who is !

Trust me ....there's plenty of "Lurkers" out there who have lots more "Tactical" experience/knowledge than ones who post comments on the Roster.
 

I'm not really trying to knock you, Pablito, or others who share your opinion.

But in the same breath.....don't condemn others for their comments ...'cause there are plenty of readers out their who don't want to hear yours !
 

I'd like to see some comments on this please !!!

Let me know if I am in the minority?

Thanks !
 
 
 

Rooster <kknjoey@webzone.net>
Broken Arrow, OK, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 18:27:41 (ZULU) 

That is not to say I am not paranoid of this happening to me. When I shoot my Chinese SKS that is notorius for someone getting killed by a slamfire sometime ago, I do three things.
1. I am fairly secure in the knowlage that its in working order and clean before the first shot.

2. With the SKS, at least maybe others, the bolt stays open after the last shot has cycled it. Making it easy to run my little finger across bolt face and check to see if the firing pin is stuck out or even crud on the face.

3. The one I use religiously is single feeding the fowler, Hey, allready stated I am paranoid about accidents at the range. With the bolt locked back its easy to single feed a top feeding semi.

I have never yet (knock on wood) had a slamfire with any semi. Not even the first M-16s (do probably to the fact of a thorough cleaning
after each session). You keep your equiptment in good shape and chances are it won't screw up on you.

By the way, this is a great subject considering I just plunked down my money two days ago on a Bushmaster. Paranoid remember. A couple of days after I got a Rem 700vs, In which I feel fortunate to have gotten a new one last fall after hearing what Sarge reported about dicontinuing, a great discousion happened on another board about a major problem with barrel trueness that turned out to be minor for some and not at all for others. BTW mine turned out very minor. It seems some duel dovetails show this problem with a scope more than other mounts.

Ps. Just a short "how ya doing Gooch"
Long winded today.
bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central , Ny, USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 20:42:46 (ZULU) 

Tactical shooting? I will post some tactical posts, soon as someone explains what the heck that means? Not to step on anyone, because that is not the way we should be, but, best shooters I have ever seen, bar none, are some of my hunting buds that work hours / days for a *maybe* shot, under conditions that most would think insane. Face the 2 or 3 speed gust winds in the mountains , for a moving shot....well, you know what I mean. In my humble opinion, the brotherhood encompasses far more people than just LE and target shots. Anyone that can put it on the money...that is a tactical shooter.

Take Care,

Old Dog
Old Dog <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, January 24, 1999 at 21:52:39 (ZULU) 

More skirmishing in the ranks! Guys lighten up, save you ammo, money, and glandular induced energy for something productive, and show us that "Macho-Macho Man" stuff.

Like Uh,

At The Carlos Hathcock Charity Sniper Match.

Be There, or be most bogusly Square(and possibly suffer psychological / social stigma, be labeled for life, and miss what should be a totally gnarly time), Duudes and Dudettes I rest my case!

chao for now!

peteR
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 00:38:45 (ZULU) 

I'm no LOE or ex-military, but I have squeezed off a round or two here and there. okay, that is the end of the intro.

What I was wondering is this since I am on a budget: I have a Ruger (gasp!) M77 MKII in .300 WM. If I have been able to make this gun shoot .5 MOA bone stock with tailored loads, should I invest in a more "tactical" rifle, or shoot what I got? With all the trigger time I see on this roster, I can't think of a better place to ask.

I'm a competitive handgunner making the switch to long range rifle, so bear with me here. Also, if anyone has a handgun related question, please e-mail me and I woul be happy to help you out!

Powder dry,
Ralph
R. Horn <m1911@earthlink.net>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 02:12:49 (ZULU) 

bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 04:02:36 (ZULU) 

To All,
I think Pablito was only trying to keep us on track with what the sight is really all about. Sometimes we" DO"get a little far afield. I don't
want to see us lose any more of our readers, we already lost Russ and as Scott said we can disagree without getting personal . Al said it best about opinions, so lets all agree to be able to disagree. It shouldn't make any difference what aspect of the shooting world we come from we all share the love of shooting. There is a lot of knowlege among the group and we should feel free to be able to ask a question about any and all aspects of shooting. Just my opinion.

Steve,
On Zeroing the scope at 100yds I think they were talking only about the 3.5x10 LR M3. When it is zeroed that way, in theory ,it is on at any number you then dial it to. If it is not zeroed at 100yds first then all the other dials will be off as well. The scope is designed with a stop so it will always come back to the "1" which is the 100 yd zero. If as you say conditions are bad or different then if you were shooting at 600yds you might dial to "6" and add a click or deduct one. It is designed for tactical long range shooting where you only need to go one rev. to reach 1000yds and this way you dont lose track of how many times you have turned the dial. Its quick and fool proof.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 05:33:28 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 06:50:40 (ZULU) 

Just wanted to de-lurk and let you guys know about a sniper personal essay I really like. It was published in print a while back by the literary magazine I'm an intern with. Anyway, now it's on the web and free--if you have time you might check it out. It's about a Gulf War sniper and it's very well written.

Here's the address:
http://missourireview.org/essays/
Grail <htngo@unforgettable.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 08:08:45 (ZULU) 

I read the "Storekeeper" with special interest since he was using the M88 Mc Millan which I am very used to. My first Impression was, Hmmm good story with no BS in it.
But the writer must not be the operator or he would not have made that many technical mistakes which give the story no more spice than if he had described the actual handling of the gear involved.

I´m not going to list the bubu´s, take a look and find them yourself. (there may be a lot more that I did´t find ?)

But,
the end and the overall message is well worth the reading, especially since it is not the message that is usually carried across when it comes to your US of A military.

My respect to all of you that have "been there, done that". And even though I train for it I hope I never have to actually do it.

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 11:54:38 (ZULU) 

If "It" shoots that good, and does so consistently to your maximum extreme range of engagement you may be content. In a nutshell, shoot the heck out of it, get good, and be happy with the rifle and just work to improve your skills.

PS anybody got an web address for Tyler Mfg. They make them little aluminum grip adapters for Smith "K" frames and I need a couple.

Torsten & Torf,

about a month ago I asked for info on Lapua Forex (fourex?) ammo can anybody help me, HELP!, HELP!, HELP!

CHAO FOR NOW!
 

peteR
peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
Big City, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 16:37:53 (ZULU) 

Anyhow I was on vacation, then busy, then sick, now I'm sick and busy! I have a month's worth of Duty Roster postings to read, so I don't know when I'll be able to completely catch up.

Mike Lau says still another month or so before my rifle is ready. Ran into a guy at the range that has a TBA rifle on order too, should be fun to compare as his is due not long after mine.

Anyhow, a very belated "Happy New year!" to everyone, and congrats to Bruce for Mil-Dot Master making an appearance in the current issue of SOF. I'll try to be back on sometime soon.

"Will shoot for cough drops"

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 21:49:52 (ZULU) 

You guys know the match I shoot if you've read my article. We try to achieve the goal above. I wish we could practice up/down-hill shots and moving targets or work some more on range estimation, but we just don't have the facilities. Not everyone has a few hundred acres of wooded hillside to bang away on like our Uncle Sam or a few other lucky individuals and groups.

I've read more than a couple of LEOs and military guys on here who come across as looking down on anyone who doesn't do tactical shooting as part of some public duty. Frankly I think you guys should stop comparing fish stories and get down to the range with the rest of us. In the year I've been shooting our match, only one duty-slotted sniper has ever showed up, and he was a big disapointment. He was with an Army Ranger unit and had seen action in Somalia and Bosnia and came to the match with a $5K custom rifle. I don't think he ever got out of last place in the three matches in a row he shot. I sure hope he isn't typical, I'd like to think my tax dollars buys more quality than that.

Any of you "pros" want to come down and kick our ass, I will personally pay your gas to drive down and show us how it's done. Maybe you are as good as you say you are, but as long as there is this reluctance to mingle, the rest of us civvies are going to wonder how much of what you say is real.

May your zero stay true and the winds heed your call.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, January 25, 1999 at 23:19:35 (ZULU) 

I never have been much of a competition shooter, just a lowly Sniper. I have a feeling you may hear from some of my students too. When is the match and where is it. Mind if I bring some other lowly Snipers with me.

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 03:02:32 (ZULU) 

Also, where is his article you wrote? I would like to find out about the match.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 03:15:41 (ZULU) 

Tactical is an interesting place, I guess. I appreciate anyone that can shoot because no one is born able. Lost a hunting trip to a guy several years back. Shot me to pieces on paper. Truly amazing. We later teased him that if we could only make game stand still, he could also feed us. haha He took it exactly as he should, with a FYOU and a smile.

Grasshopper, thanks for the note about the gun. I went with something different.

Peace

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm>
USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 03:34:45 (ZULU) 

bill
bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 03:43:14 (ZULU) 

On the Advanced course, sorry but no, the Basic course is the required training prior to the Advanced. Main problem is the wind up here. Most qualified guys have never shot in 35 - 45 mph wind at the extended ranges. We like to work our students into it rather than just dump them out there. The basic course will give you a prep out to 700 then the advanced takes you to 1000.

Hope to see you for a course or the Hathcock event.
 

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 03:57:59 (ZULU) 

Grasshopper,
I am not sure what your match is ,is it the one thats called the "Mud Brigade" or something like that?? It sounds like fun if thats it and if I lived closer you can damn well bet I would be out there with you. I think maybe everyone is taking a lot of stuff to personal on here and we need to "Cool" off and remeber were all after the same thing. I've seen varmint hunters make shots that would make a world class shooter envious so just because you don't carry a sniper MOS or your not a LE sniper doesn't mean you can't shoot or out shoot someone who is . I think the original argument started over equiptment and its use. There is a definate difference in what is required for sniping and tactical shooting than what is used in other types of shooting. I don't think anyone ment that the sniper or the tactical shooter is a better shooter than the hunter or target or varmint shooter only that the equiptment needs are different. Just as you wouldn't deer hunt with a 14 lb varmint rifle or visa versa. So lets get back to arguing about guns and equiptment and quit throwing around all this testostrone.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 04:57:47 (ZULU) 

I hope there wasn't anything so glaringly bad that it invalidated the essay for you--just glad you found some value in it.
 

Grail <htngo@unforgettable.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 07:04:02 (ZULU) 

GreyGhost
GreyGhost <darklove@bellsouth.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 09:16:18 (ZULU) 

Learn what you can from who you can and if someone makes a statement that causes questions then "Check it out"..."Question Authority" all that stuff. Lets get over this US vs THEM attitude...BECAUSE there are OTHERS out there that are truly trying to have sites like this and places like SM closed down. Don't believe me?? Then check out some other sites that keep upwith Congressional actions....sad but true the anti gunners are at work.

Marius, my apologies for being so long-winded, I'll try to keep it brief next time !! Who else will be at the SHOT Show ?? Has anyone heard that next years SHOT show to be held in New Orleans (I think) has been cancelled due to N.O.'s lawsuit against gun manufacturers?? Just heard that in passing....Hmmmm???
OUT HERE

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 10:14:04 (ZULU) 

Have any of you shot these ? or own one and can comment on the stabilety of the whole deal.

It seems to me that having a rigid support would disturb the free recoil of the rifle like placing the stock on a solid rest.

The only use I can see is that you can set the rifle on target and dont have to hold it all the time while observing, but then again I would observe through Binos or spotting scope.

So is there a real need for this gadget or is it a " Headspace Problem "

SHOT Show! I have my HQ @ Booth 9256

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 11:25:48 (ZULU) 

I heard Mista Gooch designed the butt spikes, If you miss your shot you simply turn the rifle over and fall on the spike. NO FUSS, NO MUSS!Kinda like that Roman Dude thingee they used to do with swords for FUBAR's in ancient times.

Rod,
Got any room for another Hillbilly? I can be 10-8 in one hour and I'll pick up the Possum medallions, Moonpies n' Ne-Hi's at Sheetz on the way.
 

Calling all Un-Dudes!
Calling all Un-dudes!
A real California shooter is needed for the Mud Wrestlers quorum

Grasshopper, uh, Mud-Dude

C'mon guy you can do better than throw insults..... Methinks care must be taken playing with those lit charcoal filled urns, you might really get burned quite badly my friend.
Read the TS article, pretty cool stuff Dude, nice rigs but no most excellent starlettes in the pix. You interested in the Postal thingee?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 13:10:57 (ZULU) 

Was the standing dudes fingees up or down? The Soviet Block Dudeskies came up with something like that for free rifle and UIT stuff claiming that it was ergonomically correct and offered a better platform, if my faulty memory serves me right.
A duly appointed & anointed Court Jester at another shooting site "Invented" a palm base and finger forwards technique called "The Artillery Hold" which I just saw in an ancient dude book from the turn of the century.
I normally use a fingee bridge with thumb at front trigger guard screws (base/index) and tips as feels good.

BUT,

I HATE STANDING! BTDT in a buncha matches, windy city stuff, and the field and I abhor it. Have Had some real knock down / drag out conversations about the merits of standing with the shooting Neanderthals.

Tactical (anything and everything that can be done to give you the winning edge) Shooting should means using any support possible, well at least according to this simple Hillbilly.

I pass the torch to the next runner Dude ..................
 

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
C.R.S. CITY, BY-ALL SHOOTERS HERE- GAWD!, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 14:27:39 (ZULU) 

I hope I dident come off as a "If you are not a Military Sniper you arnt S_ _ t". That's not what I intended. I was first a hunter, then a Military sniper and then a LE sniper. I dont claim that either one is better than the other, or that I am the great guru. I am a student of the art of long range marksmanship and survival. That is all, end of story. The main thing we want to do at the school is pass on information and lessions learned. We have all types of shooters attend the school. I dont care one iota what your background or why you want to attend the school. Just that you are motivated to doing your very best and you keep a serious mindset as to why the school exists. To train snipers.
 
 

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 14:59:20 (ZULU) 

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 17:37:56 (ZULU) 

Pat - "Mudville Militia" is the term I think you are referring to. That's more a perjorative term others refer to us as, we don't really have a name for ourselves.

peteR - Read my post again, I don't think I insulted anyone. Yeah, I was blowing off some steam, sorry if my perceptions were out of line, but I've been lurking for almost a year and got tired of waiting for signs our common interest in tactical shooting would lead to more contact between the "pros" and the rest of us. I think our little group is pretty good, but it's frustrating not knowing for sure how we stack up. We've got probably the best public shooting facility within several states, I find it hard to believe there's only one duty-slotted shooter in that entire area that feels it's worth the trip.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 19:37:55 (ZULU) 

paragraph one, yep agree!

paragraph two, Dude Absolutely!

paragraph three, LEO's N, Military good question, talked to the Un-Dude? Gotta be some others, how about through Californias shooters/ firearms associations, LEO contacts?

paragraph three, Uh-unbridled challenge to all non-hobbyist shooters? Great idea; thats kinda what I wanted with the postal match, just a little more diplomatically worded I guess. And your grammar and punctuation are much better than my poor hillbilly typing.

closing statement, ABSOLUTELY shoot hard and often.

chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 20:20:24 (ZULU) 

adam Wall <j_rodriguez18@hotmail.com>
Mt. Olive, IL, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 20:23:51 (ZULU) 

Rod I will trade you gas money for the two classes. I know my limitations. Because of fifteen years of police sniper shooting to 300 yards I will go with anyone to there, but you guys start at 300 and I will take a basic to get my feet wet. Heck the 600 is the differrence for me in jumping into the Master Class in High Power. For all you short range shooters out there, learning to read the wind and mirage is not easy and or learned by reading alone. Rod have you guys put Gooch in a cage?

The UnDude, Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 20:44:36 (ZULU) 

He is one hell of a teacher too. And a fine Gentleman.( no offense meant Rod.)

Be careful that Mr. Ryan does'nt belly crawl up and stick you with a candy bar Jody.

I know Scott probably does not want us to be making bets on SC but I wanna start taking up the "book" for this shoot-out!
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 21:22:19 (ZULU) 

Semper Fi,
John F. Mcquay <wraith144@aol.com>
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 21:26:33 (ZULU) 

I am an admirer of the art of LR shooting and would like to get into it more than what the average Infantryman is tought. By this I mean the usual qualification range in the back 40. BRM and ARM.

These questions should be answered from the novice point of view. With reguards to my improvement as time goes by.

Questions:
1. Should a scope be variable power?
2. Some scopes have adjustments "on the spot"
ie. Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR M3
and others have those caps you need to remove to adjust the windage and elevation. Which is better?
3. Which is the better reticle; duplex, target dot, or 3/4 Mil-Dot?
4. In dealing with adjustment resolution should I go with a 1/4 or 1/2 in min. for wind and elevation, or a combination?
5. Is price that important? I do realize you get what you pay for, but some companies are out to really make a buck.

If there is any info that I have missed, and I am sure there is please fill in the blanks for me

Thanks for the input
Ed <hawaiihawk@aol.com>
AZ, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 22:45:56 (ZULU) 

Rod Ryan - Just wanted to give my personal thanks for your school's policy of accepting anyone with a desire to learn. Have seen other places that won't even sell you a video tape without a badge and department stationary.

Non-sequitur:

I know you're hoping to find
someone who's gonna give you peace of mind

When times go bad, when times go rough
won't you let me down in tall grass and let me do my stuff
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 22:47:29 (ZULU) 

Darren
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 23:01:15 (ZULU) 

2. Some scopes have adjustments "on the spot"
ie. Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR M3
and others have those caps you need to remove to adjust the windage and elevation. Which is better?
It doesn't really matter if the knobs are designed properly. The caps can be nice if you are afraid of something bumping into the knobs and throwing off the zero. Personally I do not think they are necessary.

3. Which is the better reticle; duplex, target dot, or 3/4 Mil-Dot?
Mil dot all the way.

4. In dealing with adjustment resolution should I go with a 1/4 or 1/2 in min. for wind and elevation, or a combination?
I know people are going to disagree with me but I don't think anybody can judge the wind to 1/4 min so if the scope you select is only available with 1/2 min I wouldn't worry about it.

5. Is price that important? I do realize you get what you pay for, but some companies are out to really make a buck.
Generally you get what you pay for and this really applies to scopes. Most people think of Tasco as a cheap scope but you will hear great reviews of their tactical scope, the price is $500, not much less than Leupold. You did not say what caliber your rifle is but if it is a standard cartidge that cams for the Leupold M3 I would recommend the M3LR, everybody here seems to love it.

If you have anymore questions feel free to email me, I wish someone had told me about this when I started into the long range game.
Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, Tx, USA - Wednesday, January 27, 1999 at 00:40:42 (ZULU) 

I'm to tired to go back down to the bottem of the page but who ever said it is right. The friendships we gain and the brotherhood we belong to is our reward. When I was a little younger, we said that the "TEAM" was everything (two man team), now, I must say that the team is still everything. It (the team) is now all shooters that belong to the team.

Gooch is not in the cage. He has had some serious computer problems and is in the process of reinstalling some software. We are also in the middle of a complete re-work of some of our lession plans and AV stuff.

PeteR: I owe you a hat, your the first to step up to the shooting line for the Gunny. Thanks.

Here you go guys, PeteR lead the way. We need shooters for this event. Even if you cant make it out to the shoot. send some bucks to help out.

The next guy that sends in his money ($150) I'll give a basic sniper course to. June only. You guys who are already in the June course, sorry, your not eligable.

Just so you'll know, I'll post the results here. I'll also try to keep this give away stuff going to get the ball rolling.
 
 
 

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Wednesday, January 27, 1999 at 03:20:12 (ZULU) 

three littles words folks......................
 

"FOR THE GUNNY!"
 

Sound Off!
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
COLD-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Wednesday, January 27, 1999 at 12:34:31 (ZULU) 

Bill R,
Didn't you say you had a Savage or two?? I have a guy who works with me who can't get his on paper at 100yds with a 6.5X20 Leupold. He has run out of windage adj. on the scope and he doesn't want to go the the Leupold mounts with the windage screw. Any ideas on what his problem might be and how he can correct it with out changing bases??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 27, 1999 at 15:23:20 (ZULU) 

Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 27, 1999 at 15:59:39 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 27, 1999 at 20:59:07 (ZULU)