January 1999

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 00:41:45 (EST) 

al
Alexander Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Getting Ready for Usher In 1999 with my Sweetie in Blustery, Ohio USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 01:09:33 (EST) 

Pat(Mr Bullet),
I Hope all goes well for your wife and both of you return home safely. Do you want to tell Jeff A. we're increasing the voltage in therapy or should I?

Bolt,
Try the Hornady TAP too in addition to X-rings selections. Did ya get the PSS for X-mas? Harris shorty and/or tripod gets my vote!
 

Euro-Dudes:
Is that Walther "cheapie" anything like the old KKM's i think that was the model? a most excellent price!

Chao for now!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
DEER-CITY, bY-gAWd USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 11:06:07 (EST) 

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 13:14:54 (EST) 

Greetings from West by Gawd. Got another couple of days up here then its back to Clintonia to pack my trash, my dog and my guns to head back.

Storm Mountain is everything I thought it would be, except colder.

Mike - Brought your slings up here and we are going to play today. We are thinking about using them at a combat Service Rifle match with AR's in Canada this year.

PNgreif. I fit the saddle to my tripod looks good. I'll be getting with Kudu and make some minor mods to the attachment system and we'll let the students play with it this spring.

We are stroking the databook. My moving is slowing this down a bit but we'll have for you guys soon enough for spring.

Rick, you gotta get your butt up here man. Bring the old lady.

Kudu, Hoist me.

Well guys gotta go.

See ya.
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 14:02:50 (EST) 

You are hereby directed to get the following book:

"Book of Rifles", by WHB Smith & Joseph E Smith, The Stackpole Company, copyright 1948 by the NRA, reprinted in 1960 and 1963. The Library of Congress number is 63-12562.

Good reading and have fun identifying your rifle.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatic.ca>
Canada - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 15:38:12 (EST) 

Lou
Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 18:06:08 (EST) 

Products I have recently tried that are great: 1. Slope doper this thing is great and thanks Dave for it. 2. MilDot Master You are a god for inventing this. Everyone should have one.

I was sorry to hear about B&L stopping production of the Tactical scope. The more I use mine the more I like it.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Friday, January 01, 1999 at 23:15:35 (EST) 

The author mentioned that all of his rifles have
Tasco 6x24 40mm scopes on them.

Does anyone which flavor? (...there are several
Tasco's of that power)

I have been looking at scopes that are considerably more
expensive that the above mentioned....but if it's good
for him.....it may very well be good enough for me !!!

Has anyone had experience with these scopes ???

Thanks for the help !!!
Ken <kknjoey@webzone.net>
Broken Arrow, OK USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 01:02:51 (EST) 

Would be interested in results (not theories) of shooters that have shot the heavier Sierras and/or Bergers in 12" twist barrels at long range.

Pablito

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
It's 2 damn degrees here!!!, in Connecticut! USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 12:04:51 (EST) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 14:18:03 (EST) 

Oh well! Hey Marius can we put a spell checker on this thing!!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 14:21:50 (EST) 

Pablito,
I have a 1 in 12 twist 308 tactical with a Hart heavy barrel and it shoots the 168s and 155s into .3s or under all day long. I tried some Berger 175 VLDs in it and they shot into .3 and 4s at 100yds and I then tried them at 400yds and they shot into .6 MOA and I was pleased with this until I shot the 155s which were under .5 MOA and 4 were in .25 MOA!! So I have to agree with what you say . Would you believe I let my kid talk me out of this rifle!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 14:41:44 (EST) 

All barrels have a crown, technically. It is where the bullet exits the barrel. Maybe what the writer meant was that the crown was not coned, counterbored, etc. Even a straight 90° cut across the barrel face is a "crown". A crown doesn't have to be fancy to do what is needed. Assume that the bullet is straight in the barrel (large assumption). We want the gases to vent evenly around the circumference of the bullet base as it breaks seal with the crown. You probably already know this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lou,
I have no qualms with the Greenhill formula, and it has serve us well for century or so. I suggest you visit this site and enter the data that you have at hand and it will calculate the stability factor of the bullet. This is from the McGyro program developed by Bill Davis and Robert McCoy. This program takes into consideration:
O.A.L. of projectile
Nose length
Meplat diameter
Nose shape
Boattail length
End diameter
Twist rate
A stability factor of between 1.25 and 1.75 or so will serve you well.
http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/ballistics/drag/drag.html

Although Bill from Clearwater uses the fastest twist consistent with several parameters, conventional thought it to use the slowest that will get the job done. This way bullet balance problems are not accentuated, but minimized. Now one can say, "I always use Bergers, etc. and my bullets ARE in balance." OK,…I use them too. But when bullets feed into the lead they are usually not concentric and on-axis with the bore and therefore take on a shape that is conducive to perfect balance.

I am just picking nits here, but thought you would like to hear the other side of the coin. Tactical people and target shooters SHOULD be picking nits. More accuracy never hurts and may do some good. No sense in giving it away for no benefit.

In Champions Choice catalog they mentioned stocking 1:11 twist Kreiger's for people who can not make up their mind. Sounds like a reasonable solution to me.

As an aside, back in the '60s and early '70s when 168s were used in benchrest competition, 1:14" twist ruled.

My Rem. 40-XC has a 1:12 ¼" twist barrel and uses 190 gr. Sierra's just fine.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 15:07:51 (EST) 

A few years ago I got my hands on some Remington .308 Bench Rest brass but I never used it yet. I'm not sure why but they use small primers. Has anyone out there used this brass before? Any hints about this stuff that might save me time at the loading bench will be greatly appreciated.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 16:01:30 (EST) 

i would if there was anything to hoist.

got your 6 dude, need any assist........any at all, ll me back.

kudu out
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 21:44:34 (EST) 

If you are interested in paper bullseye shooting go digging around the Dominion of Canada Rifle Assoc website for the Royal New Brunswick Rifle Association. If you are interested in selling ... There are a couple of peddlers I can name who will get the rifle into the proper market.
 

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Saturday, January 02, 1999 at 23:06:15 (EST) 

I hope that everyone had a good Christmas and new year.

Al, did Santa bring you your Mil-dot Master? He knew once I started playing around with the new M3 that I would have to buy one also. I honestly think that he is punishing me! Maybe next year I won't be so bad. Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

Well, I can't get to the range to shoot for all the snow. Don't have my bolt rifle to shoot even if I could. What do ya do with all this snow? Did I mention that it snowed?
I think that it's time to dust off the skis and hit the slopes!
 
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Too much snow in, IL. USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 07:57:16 (EST) 

The idea behind the small primers (in Remington 308 BR) is that it allows the powder to burn more evenly, But, ignition problems can happen.

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Freezing my A__ off in , Blistering Cold West Virginia USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 12:06:36 (EST) 

1. Ideal sniper spotter's backup weapon. AR15, etc?

2. Carry gear. For 3-5 day insertion, what gear to carry including tactical vest, backpack, ammo, food, etc.? Major Plaster's gear seems to be taylored to LE instead of field.

3. Are drag bags actually used on a mission, or just for carry purposes?

Scott, got the message, all slings are up for sale. Do you also remove the swivel studs? What do you fill the holes with?

Gillie monster suit construction is underway!

thanks, Bolt
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 13:03:42 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34347@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 13:16:23 (EST) 

D. West:
In case you haven't noticed it snowed up here recently. Out in front of the house, somewhere in a chest deep snowdrift my car is waiting for me. Looks like we won't be shooting on that farm for a while.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
Snowcity (Chicago), USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 14:30:38 (EST) 

Sincerely,

Lou
Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 14:41:21 (EST) 

It appears that Storm Mountain will be fielding a team for this years Dominion of Canada Rifle Association/Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships. Any other schools up to fielding teams? Web site is www.DCRA.ca. Matches are the end of July and cover sniper team, pistol and service rifle. We are trying to make it a Storm Mountain/Armament Technolgy team. Come on guys. It'll be fun to watch us win every thing.

See ya.
Gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 15:19:28 (EST) 

Any advice on what barrel to choose? I'd like a 5R but that subject's been addressed already.
Greg in PA <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 15:30:16 (EST) 

The CIL rifle that Terry is refering to is the CIL 950T. Unless I read it wrong, the owner of the CIL stated that it was a 950C. I wouldn't have a clue on that one. Very few 950T's were made for Canadian target shooting in the late 60's or early 70's. Jim Houlden was behind CIL offering this rifle at the time and I think he told me that only about 275 were made. In issue form I can state that it is a rare beastie. Most have been rebarreled or the club that was used for the "issue" stock was modified or replaced. The story was that two barrels were shipped with the rifles. One an Anschutz and the other a Savage. The reason that one of the barrels was never used was that it was chambered backwards. Don't anyone ask details on this because my ancient brain just doesn't recall.

There was mention by someone of going to the DCRA matches in August. This has been my annual vacation for going on twenty years. It is a highly recommended trip and the setting is one you won't soon forget.

As to the post on fitting the fastest twist barrel that will ever be necessary until rebarreling....This is excellent advice. It is very hard to overspin a GOOD bullet.

The 175 Sierra is an extrmemely good bullet. In my .308 Krieger 1 in 13" .298 - .3065 machine rest barrel, I've shot quite a lot of these bullets, mainly Federal .308M2, in a mid-production test about a year ago for federal. I don't recall the exact figures but the average was certainly under 1/2 minute at 500 yards. In two tests of ten rounds of handloaded ammunition, each test was exactly 1/4 minute
or 1 1/4". Very impressive!

Sorry for the rattle, but I'm snowed in.

The very best 1999 to all.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
IL USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 17:45:21 (EST) 

The best story I can tell about Bill, old friend of friends of mine, is his 'ceramic barreled Model 700'. Stress cracks and all, he can almost outshoot anything else on the line.

The CIL 950C maybe a single shot varmint action. It may just be a magazine deer rifle. There was a time when the $C was better than the $US and gun makers sold a lot of guns into Canada.

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 19:59:58 (EST) 

I have a question about the Savage 110 FP rifle and long-action rifles in general. Do any of you have any experience with these type of rifles jamming? I recently read a sniper's comment that unless the ammo is pushed all the way back in the magazine, long-action rifles tend to jam. Is this typical? I intend to purchase a rifle soon and want to know if I should consider a short-action rifle. Are these any better for that matter?

Thanks,

Marshal Childers
HavredeGrace, MD
Marshal Childers <mchild2@erols.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 21:38:38 (EST) 

Zero
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 02:56:47 (EST) 

I zaped the sim. to you. Enjoy. As far as I know the target is a 2 meter giant, and the round the M 118.

I also have another Swat game sim. that has a realy nice sniper trainer with dope book, Leupold Mk 4, etc., you need to manipulate the bolt to load, dial in your range, and can shoot paper, irons, and ballons, in the try out phase. In the swat team phase the brown stuff rally hits the fan.

Anyone else out there have this ?? Bought it here in Germany, was on sale, since its more of a think/ tactic type sim and not a "Rambo Tito" game.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 04:29:08 (EST) 

In the Military the Sniper and Observer swap duties and rifles. With a Law Enforcement team there cxan be no swaping of rifles. The Liability factor is to great. The Law Enforcement Observer should have a rifle as capable as the primary sniper. This will allow the Observer to assume the roll of the sniper to releave the sniper if the situation starts to drag out. (Tests show the sniper's ability to exicute a precision shot after about 20 minutes of staring through the rifle scope begin to fall off.)

An AR-15 properly set up could fill in as an observer's rifle. The problems that can not be over come with a properly set-up AR-15 are the slinging of the brass, and the small caliber not being a very good glass penetrator.

Look at your needs and fit the equipment to that need.

Bruce G.Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC

Bruce <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jacksonville, FL USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 11:13:46 (EST) 

my contact at Special Air Sea Services just informed me that they have a small stock of OD open top drawstring Gore-Tex Bivi Bags in new condition for about 30 Pounds (+- 50$) each.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 11:41:20 (EST) 

You mean the "Spotter confirms Center Hit" game? Great Fun for those blustery By-Gawd days of late.

Sat. 23:30 hrs rainy, sleeting, generally rotten out and heading for work I hit the crest of a ice glazed hill with about 100 feet of murky visibility and a deer gracefully hops the fence on my port side and begins to cross.
Not to worry, I carefully brake/ downshift and then as I smugly look on Three more come over the fence after him. Uhhhhh-Ohhhhh
Them Deers see me, freak, and start slipping and sliding in the middle of the road as I begin the slow motion powerslide ballet "Deer Lake"
I just regain control and they break left and begin to flop around running/falling down the hill in the same direction I was travelling. Somehow I made it through four deer spasming in a twenty foot wide road downhill backwards neither tagging a deer/s or sliding off the roadway. Allah, (I mean Bubba) be Praised!

And here you guys are whining about being "Stuck Inside" Waaaa! Good thing I did not stop at 7-11 for coffee Eh?

Stay warm and safe Dudes!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
cOLder tHeN dEPiTiEs sIdE oF tHe MouNTn, By-Gawd USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 12:13:07 (EST) 

Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 13:41:24 (EST) 

Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
unnormally cold in, Tennessee USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 14:11:13 (EST) 

Pablito.
Paul Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 14:45:28 (EST) 

Drag bag: Depends on who you talk to. From what I understand some instructors hate them. If you get a good one, it can replace the ruck on short missions, but at the same time it'll weigh a ton. I used to prefer the simple drag bag that allows no more gear than a rifle and data books. I am currently reviewing a bag that allows you to carry spotting scope, tripod, maps, and other essentials I would have put in a ruck. It even straps on like a ruck but this high "stick" does present the problem of TARGET indicator. Probably not so much an issue in LE. The all purpose drag bag does have the advantage of always being with you, where as the temptation is to cache the ruck during a stalk. Anyway, the short of it is YES. It is taken on the mission.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:12:46 (EST) 

Scott, please clarify...are you saying not to use a sling or not to use a carry strap? I actually find a sling rather helpful when shooting from unusual positions.

Zero, look through a bunch of scopes both cheap and expensive. You may find that the quality of the cheap scopes is such that you will be better served by saving the money up a little longer to get something of a little better quality.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:32:53 (EST) 

jep, thats the one. " double tap to the head ....... Beeeep.... "

or the El Presidente Drill, what a joy. and you can really piss of the DI.

In the actuall game I never made it past the scene were I dumped old Grandma in the shower! Ouups !

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:40:34 (EST) 

when checking the scopes, ask the salesguy to step outside with them as looking through a window will certainly not give you a clear picture.

time to feed the neighbours kittens........... to my 110 lb. bernese mountain dog
Torsten <ya know>
G3land - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 17:51:26 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 19:49:52 (EST) 

Sorry to hear of your loss. The kind words that you have posted about your father serve as a good memorial to an obviously honorable man.
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 19:54:01 (EST) 

What do you'all do about them? Seems they're always fogging up (tried sea drops, spit, other antifog compounds) and they just give your position away. I am sure at least 3 deer this year clued in on my position by seeing them.

Are contacts a good option - there is the question about dirt getting in them on a sneak.

On the good side, I got to within 20 feet of a small doe while still hunting. At about 25 yards, she got curious and strolled in the rest of the way. Dead deer if I had been so inclined. (legal, just didn't want to).

If you can sneak up on a deer, you can sneak up on almost anything (except the Storm Mountain spotters)

Pat - sorry to hear about your wife. My brother-in-law had a marrow transplant for luekemia a bit over a year ago. They caught it early and he is recovering well.

Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Minneapolis, Mn USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 19:56:23 (EST) 

The civilian matches are Palma stle lie-flat and hit the bullseye. There is a class for precision scoped bipod rifles, such as most listers' already own. The rifles are shot at the same target and on the same course of fire as the off-the-elbows target rifles.

The gun laws are not that complicated - yet. Essentially, bolt actions are no problems. Semi's are either Restricted and treated like handguns, or Prohibited and not allowed across the border. Handguns are not permitted for personal protection. Semi-auto magazines over 5-shot capacity are Prohibited Devices and don't get into the country. You'd better practice your mag changes mid-string. AR-15's and that ilk are Restricted. As long as you can prove you are going to a match, and it cannot go full auto, then you are allowed to bring it in. M1A's are not Restricted. M14's are Prohibited. Safe storage means disable the firearm with a lock. No particular limits on ammo.

The Canadian Department of Justice's Canadian Firearms Centre has a website. Be patient with them right now. They are trying to register every Canadian's firearms, and just can't get the software to behave. Deadline for that piece of genius is 2003.

However, the hospitality will be memorable. The beer is good. And the US$ is worth about C$1.50.

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 20:27:44 (EST) 

Glasses & contacts? Have you given it a thought to check into laser eye surgery? I just got it done in October and it is remarkable! I've had problems with contacts almost all my life ( Ok, I'm not as old as some of you are ) from infections to loosing them doing everything.
Funny how everyone will spend mega $ on good optics and never give their own eyes a thought. I know that things COULD go wrong with the surgery, but most of the problems that happen is when they don't fallow the Doctors orders.
One exam can tell you if you're good to go and how close to 20/20 you could get.
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Still shoveling #*% snow, in IL. !!! USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 21:09:51 (EST) 

The best to you and yours...
Pablito.
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 21:44:00 (EST) 

Pablito,

Gotta mount board with Berger 175 VLD, Sierra 175, Hornady 178 gr. National Match & 168 A-Max sitting atop my monitor. The A-Maxes got that red synthetic tip and the National Matches have a very curious tip ogive/meplat that kinda rounds over on the edges in a manner that I can only describe as similar to a .22 rimfire.
For a lack of better words the 178NM is more streamlined/elongated through the area between the body and meplat but appears to share the same angle for the boat tail as the A-Max. So far I've found they DO SHOOT in my limited testing over the past few months w/ Varget. Like I said a couple weeks ago, BAD TO THE BONE!
 
 

Anybody Else played with them yet? Pat(MRBULLET)? Jeff A.? Bill R?
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
WARM INSIDE, bY-GaWd USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 22:11:22 (EST) 

Cold as your ex-wife's butt here in Ohio, and the white shit is still falling. Going to go bundle up to a perfect hourglass shaped body to keep me warm on this cold winter night. Just the thought of . . . oh fellas, - I gotta go!!!! Oooooooohhhhhh.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Shrunk up to the size of peas in blistering cold, Ohio USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 02:06:38 (EST) 

1 MOA clicks: Refer to what Rick had to say about them a while back. They are so much easier to use and far more grunt proof than the 1/4 clicks. And even at 600m you will only be 3.3" off one way or the other max. Wind and weather throw me off more than that on the first shot of the day (course I use Gods own rangefinder). As far as the scopes go, my greatest experience is with the M3's and I have found some that were very mushy and others that clicked right nicely.

Drag Bags: The smaller and lighter the better. I personally have a love/hate relationship with them. I love them on a classic stalk, like in a school situation. So much easier to crawl. Real world though I DO NOT like having my rifle in a bag. Then there is the spotter who has an M203, there is the 25lb radio, batteries, binos, NODs, spotter scope, MELIOS, and other ass't, but all important crap (like 5.56mm, 40mm, grenades, smoke, claymore, and the LBV that it hangs off, etc...) I have an small ruck that I g'd up just to tote around some of that junk on a stalk. Hell, I often think that the ghillie itself is a viscious joke that the Scotts have been laughing hystericaly about behind their kilts since WWI. But that is another piece of heresy for another day.
Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 05:19:24 (EST) 

I'm at 44.0 grains of Varget with just about everything under the sun in .308. I carefully worked up, as you did, with all projectiles and at 44.0 gr. my rifle just seems at its best.
With the 178 gr. National Matches I'm just begining to seem a very slight amount of flattening of the primers (at 85degrees F) and the groups seem pretty good considering my often spastic ability.
I use the same charge weight with the Sierra 175's and am getting real good results for a non 5-R factory barrel out to 200 yards which is the max. available to me.

Other powders are not a consideration to me at this time, Varget is less temp. sensitive and meters great through my geriatric uniflo. If you have not hit their web page (via Links page) do so and look at the testing they did with regards to temp and pressures. Great Stuff.

If I do go to another powder it will be VihtaVuori N-500/550 series its the only possible alternative according to my research. Coffees up time to go!

peteR
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
YAWN-CITY, bY-GaWd USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 09:14:28 (EST) 

Jeff A,
The "FAT BARRELL" is headed home!!! Just talked to the smith last night. Now if it would just get above "0" so I could shoot it.I got some more loading data from Hornady for the 260 drop me your address and I'll send it to you.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 09:31:33 (EST) 

I will be at the Shot Show in Atlanta, and some of you have already mailed me that you can make it there as well. What about a get together ? We could hit a Steak House or something and BS a little.

I´ll impact in Atlanta on Saturday 30th around 18:00 and eject again on Thursday 4th at 21:00.

Any takers ?

"ENDE"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 10:58:29 (EST) 

Have "max'd" out at 45 grs Varget with 168 and 175 moly'd Sierras. 'Course both barrels and chambers are a bit "tight" so that load works for me. In another shooters Rem 308PSS, we have found that 43.7 gives him the accuracy out to 500. Whatever works for you !!

I like Torstens idea for the SHOT show, IF he comes through for me(hint hint)!!! I'll be in Atlanta on the 1st mid-day, Copy that JEFF ?? Long enough post, need to make another pot of coffee 'fore i head to the woods. ONLY 28 degrees here in SUNNY AL !!!
OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 13:40:16 (EST) 

D.West: Yes, Mr. West. I did get my Mil-Dot Master from Santa, but he got a little miffed when I took a crack a Rudolf on Christmas eve. Guess he won't be coming back here next year - that fat little bastard.

Torsten: Good luck getting around in Atlanta. You will find out real quick that Atlanta ain't Deutschland. Come up north a little "und ich habe gute deutsche bier!" Ja! Ja! I'll keep it warm for you, just like they do in Dusseldorf und Hamburg.

Will: 43.7 sound like a good compromise on the Varget powder. Still a littl eunsure about the 4064 and pushing it past published Sierra limits.

peteR: Last night the AAAAAAAaaaahhhhhhhh was not a question. If was a statement of fact - if you follow my drift.

Thanks to all with the help about the powder. And Sarge!! Where the hell have you been hiding.

al o. ( Just so nobody confuses me with al b. in the Big Apple.)
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Everything is frozen up here in -2 degree , Ohio USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 16:42:32 (EST) 

We Atlantans need to designate a social coordinator for this event, i.e., someone who can coordinate when to get together for the Sniper Dinner, and hotels.

If it is warranted, I could work with some of the Hotels in the College Park (ATL Airport) area to see if we can get you guys a good rate. Let me know.

If we can get enough folks, I could probably arrange a reception room for a social one night. The only night that I am gonna be tied up is the night of the Glock reception...

RE: Savage vs. Remington

Triggers: Savage sucks...End of Statement. Even with the adjustability, it is difficult to get a Savage trigger close to a Remington that is properly adjusted.

Barrels: They vary in both guns. So far, one of the best shooting guns that I have shot was a 110FP in 7 Rem. Mag. 3/4 inches at 200!

But, I have found both brands to be very individualistic. Each individual gun has a different personality. I have shot good Savages, and bad ones. Same with the Remington.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 17:09:06 (EST) 

"At a recent gun show, a guy was selling U.S. military smoke grenades and white parachute flares. Are these things legal to buy, i.e. does the military ever dispose of such items to civilians?"

Yes they are legal to own, but check your local laws... most don't care but places like New York City might not like it.

The military disposes of these types of articals by "DATE"!
After a date (like milk) they are sold at auction... to business' and
individuals.
Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 17:36:02 (EST) 

The Stoner is still working well after about 600 rounds. I've been warned by people here that they've been known to develop wandering zero problems by now, but no sign of that yet (knock on wood). One of the guys at work has bought himself a SR-25 and one of Leupold's new long-distance scopes, but I haven't talked him into coming out to the tactical rifle match yet. (See "Sacramento Snipers" article.)

I came in first place in December's match, the second time I've done that. In January's, we had fog to where you couldn't see the berm from the 200-yard line. We put up half-sized sillhouettes and moved the firing line back and forth to positions where we could barely make out the targets. The B&L Tactical scope worked well, sometimes getting off aimed shots when others couldn't tell the targets were there. I cross-shot on one target and came up 5 points short of first place, drat.

We have a real-live military sniper from an Army Rangers unit who has shown up at our match the last 3 months. He claims to have been on active duty in Somalia and Bosnia.

I ordered a drag bag/shooting mat from Eagle Industries. After I was told it was out of stock and would take a month and a half to arrive, the darn thing showed up on my doorstep a week later. I am thoroughly delighted with the design and workmanship of this case, thanks for the recommendations from Sniper Country. The Stoner is a tight fit, but the end result is much easier to handle than the factory case. I can't wait to put it to field use.

Tactical Firearms Training Team (http://www.tftt.com) will be holding a 3-day optical rifle course at the Sacramento range the last weekend in February, including camoflauge and stalking. Drop me a note if you're interested.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 17:47:13 (EST) 

Barry Chance <Barry_Chance@maxtor.com>
Longmont, CO USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 18:52:30 (EST) 

Speaking of bedding, has anyone used marine tex to bed a stock before? McMillan uses the stuff exclusively and so does the USMC.
Any comments would be welcome.

Thanks and sorry for the long post.
Pat <Autothority@Erols.com>
Ashburn, VA USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 19:16:42 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 20:54:43 (EST) 

I'm looking for info on mil. surplus ammo cal. 30-06 headstamped FN 58 bullet weight, vel., corrosive or not any help would be great.
Daniel <hinesd@gators.net>
Lacrosse, FL USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 23:28:10 (EST) 

Last night I put an AR-15 with a Weaver KT-15 scope in the backyard for a good cold soak. This morning it was minus 4° F. and provide a good test of the AR (lubed with LSA) and scope. The rifle worked fine, but the Weaver didn't care for the cold. The normally usable clicks were non-existent. Couldn't feel or hear anything. How do the better Leupolds hold up in "brisk" weather?
Food for thought.

Once someone commented that the Weaver KTs have a spring type vibration in them upon impact or firing a shot. He was correct. Don't know if it matters though. I had never noticed it on an AR-15 which is prone to the action spring noise and vibration.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 23:44:54 (EST) 

Been out for a while, New Years eve was pretty rough, but I stopped by for a look see on what I've been missing.

Mike from Cal,

An H-S stock is foam filled, it's a urethane foam with milled fiberglass mix, and is surrounded by a layer of graphite, kevlar, and laminated fiberglass, which is then coated with another urethane shell. Now to install your own cheek piece, whether or not you are qualified, would break my heart as I probably made the damn thing depending on how long ago you got it. Plus inside that foam is an aluminum bedding block which goes from forend past the palmswell clear into the butt, probably a couple inches shy of the recoil pad. I have made the adjustable stocks, cheek piece and LOP, and we use aluminum inserts to hold everything in place inside the stock, AND we have to trim the bedding block so everything will fit. Now if I was going to spend the time and money on an adjustable stock, I'd just call H-S and order one. Take it easy everybody.
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
Rapid City, SD USA - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 01:04:46 (EST) 

Al O.
Ok, I forgot to add the "O" to your name. You never can tell when Al B. might be lurking around the Roster, but ya gotta love-em!
 

D. West
USA - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 05:36:58 (EST) 

I agree on most of the points you make regarding Savage rifles.

When I ordered my 112FV .223 I did so because the rifle was very affordable,reasonably accurate, and because I wanted a faster twist rate (Savage has 1/9 twist) than what other manufactures were offering (example,Remington has 1/12 twist) so that I can shoot heavier .224 cal bullet weights.

You are correct that the Remington has the advantage when it comes to overall selection when it comes to aftermarket products.However,this situation is changing.More and more suppliers are producing aftermarket goodies for the Savages and the prices are comparable to what you would pay for other rifles such as Remington.

I certainly wouldn't buy a Savage with the intention on upgrading the overall rifle to the quality of a PSS.Heck,I'd just buy a PSS and be done with it even if it didn't have the twist rate I wanted.

But on the other hand if I was interested in building a rifle with the intention on customizing it I would personally would want to start out with the most economical barrel/action that was of acceptable accuracy potential.In other words, I wouldn't buy a PSS over a Savage to do this.Unless of course I wanted a Remington in the first place (been there, done that) in which case I'd probably buy a Varmint Special with laminate stock.

Just some food for thought.

To:Ron N.

Ron, did you notice any accuracy difference when the rifle was that cold ? If so,approximately how much? Good point about the scope being finicky about the cold.I think I'll try that myself.
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 11:04:23 (EST) 

By the way, I believe H.S. now offers to upgrade the standard PSS stock with the new adjustable cheek rest for around $100. This would certainly be worth it for those who want a higher rest but do not want to 100mph tape a pad to the rifle. Also, the factory job will obviously be very well done when compared to some "home brew" solutions. Just thought I'd past this on.

JR, thanks again for the low down on the HS construction.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 06, 1999 at 11:36:16 (EST) 

We know cold air (that is not 'thin wind') is denser. What effect does this have on ballistics? Sea level performance in the summer is one thing, what about the depths of winter?

From the scope test, we know springs and lubes behave slower in the cold. What effect does this have on rifles? Are there any rifles that won't work in the cold - semi autos, high spec' rifles?

We know fingers and muscles dislike the cold. What is the effect on the shooter?

Finally, condensation from breathing will fog eyepieces (know this from experience). What can be done to avoid this?

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
minus 36 degrees with a slight breeze, Canada - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:08:05 (EST) 

A most excellence post dude!

But,

I believe the bretheren is interested in first round accuracy w/o fouling shots. If you discount the first round fired, you're only fooling yourself. What is most often called a Cold Barrel Shot and it can't be "Bogus" in the real world.

What was the deviation from the intended point of impact for Remington vs. Savage?

Maybe a repeat test without cleaning the barrel between strings, or fouling shots could provide more most excellent enlightenment to all of us.

Shoot what you got, and shoot it (precisely) lots.

Paul H, Moly Coated DRAG BAG! DUUUDEEEE! Where can I get One!
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
tHAwING-oUT cItY, bY-gAWd USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:37:16 (EST) 

A few winters ago we had it as bad as you now, with temps in -20°C. I had my breath, or just the condensation of my body forming ice flowers on the lens during a hunting trip.

My quick fix was one of my long socks into which I slipped one of those small heat bags for warm toes. I tied the sock in an O and used it as a lens cover with the warm toaster bag in the rear.
Presto, warm objective, and no more condensation.
This year, if it ever gets cold, I try just taping the bag to the outside of the objective, may warm the lens that way?

Try it and tell me about it, but dont heat up the lens to quick or it may fracture.

"ENDE"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:40:16 (EST) 

1. Use RainX anti-fog on the eyepiece and Regular RainX on the objective.
2. Avoid a wide brimmed hat and thick ghillie veil. Just the heat from your head can fog up the eyepiece.
3. Breath out your nose as much as possible. It directs the hot moist air from your lungs away from the scope.
4. Try to avoid moving the weapon from warm indoors to cold outdoors a lot. In the Marines we used to try to use a cold room to store weapons in cold weather to keep condensation down. When living in an arctic tent with a yukon stove or such, keep weapons behind the frost liner if the tent has one.

Weapons operation in the cold. Its more of a lubrication thing than anything else. For semi-auto's use 3-in-one oil, with bolt guns white lithium grease has worked for me. Moly lube?

We are in the short strokes on the data book.

Later

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 10:00:15 (EST) 

Well off to shoot my Rifle and see if I should be using Varget instead of the 4064 I have been using for years. Varget is alot eaiser to measure for sure.

I'm back to using non Molly in my sniper rifle. First round from a clean bbl is to erratic for me. I have heard about leaving a fouling shot but that just rubs the grain the wrong way to leave a rifle dirty.

To who asked about Marine Tex and who said it was expensive. It is a great bedding compound and cost $6.00 for 1/2 pint in Calif. That seems cheap to me. You can do alot of rifles with 1/2 pint. A quart is $13.00 and that will go bad before it is used. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 11:33:52 (EST) 

I am asking that any of you out there who may be interested in one of these prints please phone Wayne Stallings at the Imagine Art Studio in Smithville, VA (1-800-303-9003) and express your desire that Lee Teter reconsider his position and press forward with this artwork.

I believe the final view of what is correct in the painting should be determined by the artist, Carlos, and his son Carlos III. For those of us that respect and honor this man, the opportunity to purchase a quality print of him as he would choose to be remembered should not be compromised by anyones "commitee" of critics.

Hopefully most of you will agree and we can get Lee to complete the work for printing.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 13:10:23 (EST)

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/guns/overview/

J.D.
J.D. Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 17:20:08 (EST) 

There may be hope for the American people yet (at least those with internet access). The question was, "Should gun manufacturers be held liable .....etc."

When I voted, the vote results came up as follows:

Total Votes: 14736
Yes votes: 1197 (8%)
No Votes: 12950 (88%)
Sometimes: 598 (4%)

Cast your vote!
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:07:46 (EST) 

Ken :)

NoVaShooter <Ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:32:28 (EST) 

CG
Curious George
emerald, WA USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:34:51 (EST) 

There's a article here at Sniper Country just for you.
Click onto (ARTICLES AND COMMENTARY)
Then click on (COMMENTARY)
Now click on (SO YOU WANT TO BE A SNIPER)

It's not going to taste too good, but it's what you're looking for.
And for God's sake, stay in school!!!
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Oh, so cold here, in IL. USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 22:10:29 (EST) 

i GOT KINDA CONFUSED wITH tHE DOUBLE POST, AIN'T NONE OF US GENIUSES, JUST HUNTERS N' SHOOTERS SHARING COLLECTIVE WISDOM AND EXPERIENCES GATHERED IN THE FIELD, DUDE!

un-DUDE: Once you get "Varget'ed", I doubt you'll go back, EVER!
Sweatshops, HA! Gooch has got to have plenty of free time on his hands, and everybody knows West Virginians are good at manual labor! That banjo plucking toughens the fingers FAST.

Barry, Go!-Baby!-Go! Now you're tracking that Cold Barrel Shot!
 

Jeff A,
Bubba get you? You been cooped up with Babs again? Got any of the Hornady 178's yet? ANSWER ME!!!

Pat(MrBullet) ibid Hornady 178's? pLEASE?

X-ring: Attempting "conversion" in AM when I can clearly read instruction manual! :-o

Chao for Now, Dudes

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-GAwD USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 22:14:20 (EST) 

After cruising thru some of the other sites SC has links to, I see that drag bags aren't cheap !!! Why not use a military drop bag and save yourself some $$$$$$ ?? I think Brigade Quartermaster has them for about $40 and then you can modify to suit your needs. I suppose if your dragbag has to perform double duty and be a shooting mat also then you might have a problem but ...over at Ft Benning they have some at "Ranger Rags" (surplus store) and they run $15-25. Made of canvas, heavy canvas, and has a felt inner padding. Just a thought, may not be as "cute - high speed" as some of those bags but it darn sure works !!
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Awake in, AL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 04:14:26 (EST) 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 06:36:33 (EST) 

You foreign guys out there just don't understand the current America.
It's not what we "DO" that counts, it's what we "SAY" about what we do that counts...
It didn't count that we messed up in Somalia... we felt their (the Somalians) PAIN! (but somehow, not the pain of our own military).
And when we bomb an aspirin factory... it's important to understand that our leader "Feels their pain"... as he gives the workers an "Excedren Headache!"
And as the bombs fall on the Muslems, kneeling in prayer, our fearless leader, "Feels their pain", and must show respect.

"It's not personal, it's just business.", just like his love life.

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 07:11:33 (EST) 

Bill R,
Good Post and well said you didn't beat up on him but he should have gotten the idea.

Torsten & Paul
You two should work as a team for the "Policically correct". Torsten could do the releases and Paul you could explain them!! That way all of us misguided and misunderstood "Red Neck Gun Owners" could be accepted by the "Policically correct public".

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 07:55:32 (EST) 

peteR: I don't have any production models ready yet but you can make your own at home. Get an Army duffel bag (the cotton one, not the new nylon type) and about 5 pounds of molybdenum disulfide (pharmaceutical grade). Put the duffel bag in your clothes dryer, dump in the moly and turn it on. The permanent press cycle works best since it has a "cool-down" period like the Brady Bill. Man, I'm gonna be rich! Hope this doesn't double post.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 08:07:12 (EST) 

If a sniper tries to shoot the weapon out of a hostage takers hand, there are several possible outcomes:

1) The gun is hit, and the hostage taker is overwhelmed by SWAT-people and nobody gets hurt big time. Not very likely.

2) The gun is hit, but due to the impact the gun fires and the hostage or a third party is hurt big time. Possible.

3) The rifle bullet hits the hand of the criminal, passes through bone and flehs and carries on at around 2300 fps and may hit somebody else. Also the criminal can still shoot wth the other hand. Very possible.

4) The sniper misses the hand ans criminal totally, but the passing bullet and sonic boom of it causes unvoluntary reflection in the criminal, his gun goes bang and the situation ends in full shoot out. This outcome most probably has happened many times.

I think that the threat to hostages and third parties are too big, when a sniper tries to shoot the gun out of a criminals hand. Therefore this method should never be an official tactic. A sniper may choose to use it, but only if he really knows how to do it. In the end he must live with the consuquences. Last but not least, if somebody is so big threat that he can be shot legally, then the sniper should try to maximize his stopping power and aim to more effective body parts than a weapon or hand.

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 08:35:34 (EST) 

Several days past, I mentioned the use of 175 Sierra MK's in my machine rest. Sorry that I didn't back up the good results of those bullets with a load. Since the loads were not mine, I can take no credit for the superb accuracy.

As stated, the barrel was a 1 in 13" .298 - .3065 Krieger. The chamber was Obermeyer. The OAL in each case 2.80" to conform with Palma rules. The first ten shots were from 1992 Palma cases, Federal 210M primers and 45 grains VV N-140 (non-moly). The second ten were in Rem. BR brass, Rem. 71/2 BR primers and, again, 45 grains of VV N-140 (non-moly). Both groups were little knots (1 1/4") at 500 yards. The first ten shots were not chronographed but the the second ten produced deviations well under 10. This last load was used by a friend at Cedar Springs, Ont. on labor day and a 900M comparison was made with the Sierra 155 Palma. The 155 Palma bullet, with a comparable load, used about two minutes less elevation at that distance. For those interested in Varget, the classic load for the 155 seems to be 45.3 grains. The VV N-140 load at about 46 grains.

I note considerable interest here with the Hornady bullets. While
I've only tested 168 and 180 light mag factory loads, it was superb
in the above mentioned barrel. In a Hart barreled 1 in 10" twist
M-700, this ammunition did not produce good results. Whether this
was due to twist or internal dimensions of the barrel, I haven't a clue.

Just some pre-breakfast Friday morning musing.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SE, IL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 09:24:41 (EST) 

All are great products. But as you pointed out, they are not cheap. On the other hand they do have unique features that would be hard to duplicate from scratch, the least being the quality of the stitching. By the time you were done, you might find the money invested was equal to the price of one of these bags! That being said, you can make a drag bag with a little effort. It ain't all that tough. Home built units usually lack external and internal pockets for storage of gear, but they do serve their primary role well, that of transporting the sniper rifle across rough terrain. What you get with a quality commercial drag bag purchased from a reputable company is a well constructed piece of gear that will last a lifetime. It will have a lot of well thought out features that allow you (especially police snipers) to store everything you need for a call out or short duration mission in one well organized sack. These bags are far superior to a padded canvas sock or a modified gun case. They ain't cheap...but in consolation, you do get what you pay for.

Commercial bags give you two basic choices. A simply and sturdy bag to transport the weapon, OR an elaborate back pack that will allow you to transport the weapon in addition to all the ancillary gear - food, scope, tripod, ammo, binos, water, ad nausea. You have to decide what you need before the final purchase. Humping a ruck and a drag bag is perfectly acceptable, but sometimes having a bag that can carry it all while leaving your hands free to carry a carbine or navigate mountainous terrain is pretty nice too. For police, having it all in one organized bag sure beats the heck out of taking the weapon in a hard case and having all the other gear in a separate carry all. One thing that does not work: using a basic drag bag as a carry all. There is no simple way to attach all the gear you would like to bring along to a bag with out extra compartments. You just can not have it both ways. Stuffing the gear in the main compartment with the rifle is also problematic as it can shift and beat the rifle up pretty good. For example, sticking your spotting scope in with the rifle is asking for trouble. Tying it outside just gets it lost. You NEED that external cargo pocket.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 10:01:00 (EST) 

a most excellent post, please let us know when you get some Hornadys (and time) to play with them! Your input would be a most valuable asset to us shooting pilgrims.

Paul H.
It Worked, It Really worked! Drag bag is now moly coated, so are uniforms, WIFEY'S UNDIES, my underwear, socks, kids clothes, We're now a genuine High Speeeeed/Loooooow Drag kinda family! THANKS DUDE!

Sarge, snowed in? Was ist los?
 

Time to trade the Banjo for a snow shovel 6"plus on ground n still going.

Torsten, You Da'Spin Doktorr. I have no doubts, Billy Bob can use you!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SNOW CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 11:47:39 (EST) 

Any information that you could give me on this rifle would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your time in this manner,

Walt Hucks
Walt Hucks <awhucks@hotmail.com>
Winston-Salem, NC USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 12:24:59 (EST) 

How would you recommend bedding this one gun (in hopes of getting it t shoot with a reasonable torque setting)?

Thanks for any info.
JPinTX
JPinTX <pruett@inu.net>
Lufkin, TX USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 14:23:07 (EST) 

No guys I'm NOT snowed in, haven't even SEEN snow so far! In fact was 71 yesterday and 60 today LOVE this weather! Now if the D**M wind would quit! OK on to other things!
The CNN poll is very enlightening everyone that reads the Duty Roster needs to go "vote"!
JR - I couldn't figure out from your post if you use to work for H-S or still do? Anyway I got off the phone with them about 20 minutes ago with some bad news. They don't make stocks of any kind for Savage rifles! That stinks!
Now for some REALLY ROTTEN news - have been going all over town today looking in my 3 different gunshops (have a real big choice don't I!!) looking for someone to give me a good price on a 700VS. All the stores called different suppliers (one place called 3) and all got the same answer - REMINGTON has DISCONTINUED THE 700VS!!! Now that REALLY STINKS!! Anyone else heard this???
Gee anybody out there with some GOOD news!

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 16:04:47 (EST) 

Several years ago in Columbus, Ohio there was a shot fired to disable a firearm. If memory serves me, the guy was sitting on the Statehouse or courthouse lawn in a folding chair. The handgun (looked like a snub) was held in front of him dangling between his legs. At the shot (from about 75 yds), the handgun scattered into many pieces and stung the man's hand. In an interview afterwards, either the sniper, or another sniper said that they routinely shoot .308 casings at 100 yds.

The next time that I was at the 100 yard range, I placed three 308 cases on a 100 yd. target frame. I was in the process of perfecting loads in a 6mm Rem 40-X in a Zelenak aluminum stock. Three shots later……. I was able to recover two of the cases neatly perforated. Still have them. It was a bum custom barrel which never shot better than ¾" groups, so it was just a lucky 3-shot group.

Put a Leupold 24X (first generation) in my deep freezer for about 6 hours the other day. The temp was -20° F. ( -28° C). There was quite a bit of stiction (sp?) on the first attempt to move both elevation and windage knobs, and each jumped about a moa or so. However, once broken free, both knobs responded with tactile and audible clicks that were not very different from those in normal temperatures.
Ron N.
 

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 16:57:23 (EST) 

Sorry I've been so quiet lately. I'm going through a divorce while trying to get moved up to Storm Mountain and my motivation level has been zilch point shit. Add to it that my ex is marrying another person in this field (supposedly a "friend") and its been a real bear. Onward and upward!

I have held off commenting on the shooting guns out of perps hands. Hexa had some very good points. I have found the energy up to partake in this.

First and most obvious question is why would a LE sniper want to shoot a gun out of someones hand? I suppose we could argue back and forth about flacid paralysis not being a sure thing. But you can say the same thing for the fact that the gun might still go off or the sniper might miss (ala hexa's remarks). Bottom line is you still have a maggot hostage taker that will now sue your ass, eat up some correctional facilities budget and probably get out and pull this type of shit again. You have a victim who has to live with the fact that the hostage taker is still out there somewhere maybe seeking revenge or continuing the episode at a later date.

I can group very good on a stationary target, on a firing range when I have control of most everything. But what is the liklihood that I will lose a little group tightener under stress or the gun will move just as I shoot. Pretty good I think.

Men, "In my opinion" don't even entertain this subject if you are a cop. Train for it and leave it in your bag of tricks but don't ever let on to a supervisor that this is an option available to him. Besides, I wonder how many of these incidents were accidental that the sniper involved took credit for as being intentional? Hey it looks good in the press right?

Stick with the high percentage shots. Mark Maguire hit a shit load of homers but how many times did he strike out? Murphy is alive and well. I know. I've met him and his son!

YOu guys that are freezing your scopes...How do they work as ice cubes. That would be cool at a party. Mug of Rum with a M3A sticking out of it. Great conversation starter. Got to watch that eye relief though. You could poke your eye out!

On easing springs with weapons. Always been a habit of mine to drop the hammer when storing a weapon to preserve spring strength. We teach it with Remington based weapons systems. It is also one of the last steps of "inspection arms" in drill and cerimony for this reason. (Had a DI once tell me it was to make sure the weapon wasn't loaded. Jeeeze!)

Whats that? I hear a banjo!! Im a West virginny man!! Yeehaawww.

Guys I love it up there. See, even a old sniper finds a zero every now and then. Ya'll come on up to Storm Mountain ya hear! We'll throw some 'possum on the grill and shoot steel. Got about a 1300 yard shot from the front porch.

See ya,
Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 18:53:49 (EST) 

The Remington is a single stage trigger as it comes from the factory. There are two, 2 stage trigger systems out on the market that fit the 700 actions with little work. The first is the Jewell this is a great unit that simulates the action of a 2 stage trigger. They are around $250.00 and have a safety.

The other unit is the Medisha. This is a true 2 stage trigger but has no provision for a safety. A Winchester M-70 style safety can be fitted to the rifle's bolt at around $200.00. The trigger sells for around $350.00. This is a great trigger but the expensive way to go.

A factory Warranty Service station for Remington can adjust the trigger and not void the warranty. This is the least expensive way to go but it will still be a single stage trigger.

As for the AR-15 there is