Sniper Country Duty Roster

December 2002

gone stuff

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:21:27 (ZULU)

Boltster,

http://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-ProductSpec?CMBK1

This knife with a BMF style handle & endcap would be the cats meow. I love the BMF w/o sawteeth.

Away back when (1985?) I begged and pleaded for a Gerber rep to make a solid back version.

Them Rinaldis are NICE, but like CDC & youse said Grip is CRITICAL.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:28:30 (ZULU)

Bill- At the risk of drawing fire, how much do you shoot your tupperware vs nayhting else? I will bow to experience anytime, most of youse have more experience than me. But that's the point here, right experience and repetition?

That's why i don't shoot anything but my Sigs, it's what I carry and I need to have it in my muscle memory not a 1911, the greatest handgun ever invented by mankind:) But the point is, if you shot your 1911's or H&K's like your Glock wouldn't they be just as fast? Is it so much a design thing or an operator thing?

But like Kevin Mussack said, pick one, shoot it (a lot) and make damn sure you have the mindset.

Steve Burris

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:32:43 (ZULU)

PeteR,

Have an original gurka kukri in WWII canvas sheath similar to this one:

http://users.accesscomm.ca/tholter/east12.htm

AWESOME weapons if used properly. Of course, you can take your own leg off if not careful!

This is on my list when I become wealthly like YoteBait!

http://www.carlsengallery.com/pastauc/10-16-1999/samsword.htm

Sorry folks, forgot this was a guns and stuff place, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 01:29:17 (ZULU)

I'm surprised at you guys... you'd think this would be common knowledge here....

#1 rule of knife fighting... bring a good medic, it is not uncommon for the victor to die from his wounds..

ASC #2 is gonna require pistolero skills... damn, suddenly my handicap just got real big... I can't hit the side of a barn... I'm slow too. No formal training probably has a lot to do with it... One of many downsides to living in NJ.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:04:43 (ZULU)

Hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving ! Time to do some push-ups now.

I was shooting my M1A Standard SA today, I'm thinking about selling this weapon for a G.A. Precision - Maybe for the "Rock" !!!

If I spend the money to get this M1A to shoot better groups, I could purchase a REAL GUN from G.A. Precision :>) !!!!!!!!!!!

I know this has been asked before or maybe not? Could anyone explain in detail - what is a 5R barrel? --- Pros and Cons?

Thanks for your time,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:04:51 (ZULU)

I am considering ordering a second barrel for my Rock River Arms AR-15. Can anyone share with me their experience with chrome lined bores? Has anyone noticed a decrease in expected accuracy or, greater barrel life with a chrome lined bore? Does anyone feel a chrome lined bore is worth the extra cost over the standard chrome moly barrel? Any input you would be able to offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Mike Diorio <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:41:54 (ZULU)

Hmmm?

The saga of Doc Holliday and Johnny Ringo? Sorry BRogers, couldn't resist.....I'm enjoying the discussion. For autos I've got some 1911s and a Sig 228, but some day I'd like to try a Glock 21, just to see what they're all about. I'd be interested in what holsters you have found that hold up to the usage you describe.

Had a Cold Steel Trailmaster with Carbon V blade, and they have a certain charm, plus they're sharp enough to shave hair off your arm. Sold it. Too big to haul around. If I want to chop I'll use an axe. For venison work a Master Hunter with Carbon V is the ticket. Short and sharp and holds up well to field dressing chores. I've been eyeing the Benchmade Nimravus as a nice fixed blade carry knife, also.

Bolt, don't bother kicking him in the hand....easy to miss. When he sticks his hand in pocket, just nail him low center between the front jean pockets. This presumes he was sorta in the attack mode, and not just reaching for his car keys. Ha!

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Country, MN, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 03:52:13 (ZULU)

The trailmasters with the straight black handles are awkward to haul around. Custom makers curve their knives in such a way as to make them much easier to carry. With the classic (I forget the name) sheaths, they aren't bad at all.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 04:05:08 (ZULU)

BRogers, I think if I saw one of my guys do your drill and put the weapon back in the holster that fast6 I would kick his ass around the block. Nice game if you want to practice how to die.You practice as you fight. You do your drill a bunch of times and then it gets real. You fire one round into body armor, holster and watch as he shoots you. Time to step out and learn how to fight with a pistol. Might as well place your empties in a coffee can between drills, Same end result Bad Training! As to who is fastest. Hell I only shoot as fast as I can make the hit, but when you center punch my armor and reholster you will say crap when I stop firing/hitting.LMAO

I would love to see what happens when you holster a glock that fast and hit the trigger on the strap. Let me guess no strap to keep a big mean guy from atking it from you, or it dropping when you fast rope/rappel, move around. Its gunfight at the OK?

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 04:27:40 (ZULU)

Bill & CDC, I hate to disagree with you on the value of "hip" shooting. I was taught at our Academy by Bill McClenan, who now teaches full time at Thunder Ranch and did part time there when I was an LE pup, that it does have its place. It is not true hip shooting you fire with the gun at the side of your chest, about nipple hieght. It is used when fighting gets very personnel. "Bad Breath" distance is a good analogy I guess. When raising the pistol to a normal stance would result in having the gun with in reach of the Suspect. You maybe fighting him off, or holding his gun hand while drawing your own. In this case a normal stance is out of the question and this technique BETTER BE PRACTICED! A person should try as many shooting techniques as posssible in order to improve your life saving skills. I practice with a handgun from powder burn distance to 100 yds or more with my guns. Not that distance with the tupperware though. I have even practiced out to 200yds with my 44 getting over 50% hits on a 200 yds service rifle rapair center (open sights). I like being an all around shooter not just fast or combat distance but a genuine good shot. Like I have said, I aint great with a hand gun but I am practiced. So I say practice practice practice. I know one guy who shoots the pistol normally rotates it 90 degrees shoots rotates it another 90 and shoots, til it has been rotated 360 degrees. Upside down he uses his pinky.

Knives, oh so pistol country must step aside for knife country. haha

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 05:28:23 (ZULU)

Gents,

Hmmm, just when I think we MAY have reached maturity we start with the "pistol wars" thing, again.

YOUR CHOICE! If'n it fits you, is reliable, and is in a suitable defensive caliber you're set.

Being an old fart, I've carried the 1911 platform for over 25 years. Nothing fits my hand better. Next in line is the Browning Hi-Power 9mm or .40 S & W and the Glocks. Glocks got no soul, but they work.

HK's work, but I AM NOT a fan.

Let's not forget our K and L frame S & W's, either.

Personally, I like rifles better. Prefering to conduct "business" at a distance.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 10:38:30 (ZULU)

On mindset..

A friend came by one evening to borrow a small caliber pistol. Supposedly to teach his girlfriend to defend herself and newborn from bad-assed exhubby. Small caliber first and move up to a .40 Sig which he was to loan her when she felt ready. We talked and had a beer while discussing the finer points of self defense. I asked him if he was Positive she would Shoot her attacker? He threw down his beer and said "everbody ain't a Rambo like you, man!" At which point he left. Never spoke to him again. I think Clint was right.

"Anyone can understand shooting to protect themselves. You give me five minutes and I’ll make anyone on this planet mad enough to shoot me. The real question is, will they have that much time in a fight? You need to make that decision before you start to fight-only your life depends on it." Clint Smith

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 13:50:53 (ZULU)

Alan, there is some one teaching that Israeli technique here in the Fatherland, but they will only teach it to women,I was encouraging my misses to go for it. I always tell every body I've got a blackbelt in martial arts... "gun-fu" Ref the knife fighting carry on, people that use knives are plain nasty, I once had occasion to be in the close vicinity of a knife wielding asshole, it wasn't pretty.

Ken M. Let me explain the way it works with the Armourers in the Brit Army, maybe some of you guys will find it interesting.Armourer trade training takes place at the School Of Electronic and Mechanical Engineering. The Basic Armourer course is about 1 year long, Students start by learning basic engineering skills like fitting and machining, also incorporated is some blacksmithing/sheet metal work and working with plastics-figerglass etc and every tradesman in the Army learns Battle Dammage repair techniques. Then they move on to the history of firearms and firearms developement, learn all the technical responsibilities of the armourer and all about the army paper shuffleing system/spare parts requesition, workshop practices and procedures etc, Then general principles of firearms and types of actions, ammunition and ballistics, learn all about terms and abbreviations associated with firearms. Then move on to learn fault finding and repair general issue weapons/ firearms and support weapons and all associated equipments, to manufacturers standards.Basicaly learning to build weapons from a pile of parts, machining and fitting and manufacturing parts where nessecary, everything from bayonets, through pistols assault rifles, mortars, machineguns, riot control weapons, aircraft/vehicle mounted weapons and mountings etc. Then comes a section on things like AFV turrets, an Armourer is responsible for all the insides of the turrets on vehicles like the warrior, (we had the fox recce vehicle then) things like the electrical firing circuits, the vehicle sights and all the turret fittings from seats to smoke dischargers are the responsibility of the Regimental Armourer, as are/were all the field cooking appliances and a whole bunch of other kit including the officers mess bicycles). Then they move on to a part of the course that deals with optics/instruments and night vision eqpt. Then a section on foriegn and non issue weapons ( we worked on the Garand the M1 carbine, several H&K's, AK47 and a bunch of derivatives, M16a2, Negev,variouse foriegn machineguns and a bunch of other stuff) We then went and did a course in the Armaments wing on artillery pieces and tank mounted guns (this was for the benefit of those of us who where bieng sent to armoured regiments, to enable us to help the gun fitters) we then also covered sniper rifles (although i seem to remember that sniper rifles wheren't generally covered on the basic course buy on an extra equipment course, i think that if your particular basic had the time you did it and if time was short you had to come back later).Sevral parts of the course where manufacturer recognised or had manufacturer participation. Anyway, at the end of the course (and also at appropriate points through out the course) we where given exams, written and practical, those who passed went on to do a refresher of the basic military training and where posted to field units as a Class 3 Armourer. Depending on your grades and final test results you where either given your class 2 after 6 months or had to take a further set of tests at the local REME Field Workshop in your Military district. From arriving at your first unit as a still wet behind the ears class 3, you began to perform your duties under the supervision of the class 1's. basicaly you continued your training "on the job" returning to SEME and or other training establishments for variouse courses as the need or requirement arose( things like Milan, Browning 50cal, Turning Techniques(indepth lathe/machining course). As a class 2 you where considered capable to work with the minimum of supervision, periodicaly bieng given tasks on which you would be evaluated. anywhere between 3 and 6 years after completing the basic course you where called to attend a class 1 course (the more capable you where, the sooner you got on it). This was a refresher of the basic course, with some updates and a more indepth look at some weapons, (sniper rifles where one catagory where we went realy into depth due to the adoption of the L96A1 at the time). If you pass this course you are then considered capable of running an Armourers workshop and supervising and training tradesmen under your command. From this point on you can opt for 1 of 2 career paths, either you stay in the one trade disciplin and eventualy become an Artisan ( highest rank you can achieve is that of Staff Sergeant) or you opt to cross train as a Gun Fitter and eventualy become an Artificer.( you can reach the rank of ASM Aftificer Sergeant Major and ultimately take a commision as an Officer).

Any way, as a class 2 Armourer you are considered trained and capable enough to look after your own Infantry companies weapons and associated equipment. What tended to happen was that each inf coy would have an Armourer assigned and the rest or a Bn's weapons and equipment would be divided up between all the B'n armourer's when in camp or looked after by the HQ Coy Armourer (usualy the SSgt) when in the field. ( I always had Mortars,Sniper-Rifles,Milan and the Carl Gustav's and the AFV's (Rarden Cannon and its turret in the Fox) to repair when in base, so realy I had 2 Inf companies, Alpha and Heavey Weapons or Support Coy, I liked it that way because i got to get out and about with each section when they went on section exercises, be it Mortars, Pipes and Drums ( SF machine guns) Recce Pl, Sniper cadres, Anti Tank/Milan whatever, If I made sure i wasn't in camp much i didn't get stuck on guard much, then i got on the Bn shooting team and i was never in camp, it was great..

OK hope i haven't bored any one with my little trip down memory lane. It would interest me how the US forces organise thier repair troops, especialy weapons repair, I believe the Canadians do it along scimilar lines to us Brits, with the CREME as do the Aussies.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 15:53:21 (ZULU)

Thank you undude--nobody ever won a gun by being the first person back in ther holster. A very hard habit to break if a newby has "taught" himself this habit prior to formal combat oriented training.

on the shooting the pistol upside down manipulating the trigger with your pinky. this is not difficult. We demonstrate this to all newbys on the last day of ther firearms block from 25 yards.

curious about some of your pistol qualification courses for new people. We can talk inservice later.

Oklahoma Basic Pistol qual (every new officer must shoot a 70% to receive basic certification 1 time out of 6 chances)

3 rounds from the 3 foot line in three seconds one handed (I hate this term but basicly "hip shooting" with off gun hand touching center of chest in a defensive posture) Bad breath distance!

3 rounds 3 yard line two in chest 1 in head 3 seconds

2 rounds 5 yard line center chest 3 seconds

2 rounds 7 yard line center chest 3 seconds

2 rounds 15 yards low kneeling 4 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards low kneeling using baricade for cover only 5 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards standing week hand baricade supported 5 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards standing strong hand supported 5 seconds

2 rounds 50 yards high kneeling 8 seconds

Each stage is fired from the holsterd position interview stance.

20 round course shot on a silouett target (basicly a NRA-B27 7 ring and in) All hits in ring 5 points, softball size circle in head, must be in circle to get head shot points.

Fail to follow range tower commands shooting improper # of shots or improper position is an NQ( no qualification) regardless of score.

Instructors shoot this course in half time for the students. Hard part of this is the 15 yard line, two rounds low kneeling in 2 seconds starting from a standing interview stance- holsterd.

I am interested in what some of you guys are doing always looking to steal somthing good from whoever I can.

c ya

Jim Anderson <ocso245@hotmail.com>
OKC , OK, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 16:58:21 (ZULU)

Anyone remeber what the course of fire was for the 150 foot NRA Marksman Qualification Course ?

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 19:55:01 (ZULU)

Guys, just came back from shooting with wife and son. Son did well. Wife well, she shot the rifle George built and at 200 placed two touching and one with just a little paper between it and he other two holes. Looks like soon George may be Building another stick for the house.

<<< Just measured wifes group .70" at 200 yds..>>>>>

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 22:33:42 (ZULU)

Brogers--I never liked Glocks for nuthin.' Then I shot actually shot one...Heheh. The damned thing felt good, hit good, and pretty much ruined my irrational hatred. Doesn't mean I am selling the Para or not buying more 1911s, just that I bought into the tupperware criticisms. I can't fault the departments using them now.

Mil-LE cross training: I remember that change a few years back. I thought it was a bone-headed self-imposed expansion of Posse C. We had Feds and smatterings of New England LE out with us--and the learning was two-way. Damned fine resource just thrown away. I kinda learned about the Kenya-style techniques for bomb making from the LEOs. Nuthin' new about gas-enhanced bombs. Just ask 2d Force Recon Marines...but the TECH guys were well versed; the classified courses weren't even on that yet. Folks living near the Coleman Demo area found out what I learned from those guys. Whatta effin' boom. The cross talk knowledge is priceless. That rule needs to be lifted soon.

Blake's hunt: What terrible conditions. Winds gusting to 35 kts, steady at 20, occassionally hit Gale force (indeed--50 kts) all weekend. The deer are wherever the wind ain't--and that be somehwere I ain't too. Looks like my show-off shot will be the only meat this year. Blake is out now with his Uncle as the winds fell off to a reasonable 5-10 (I'm babysittin', like Medicjim someday). Just heard one shot off the back quarter. Maybe????? If it was Blake, his barrel just fouled again! Damn remmy. The good part of this year was just being out with my son. Watching him double check his safety at every move, copying my walk through the leaves and brush, whispering TRP data at every over watch position for hold-overs. Having him commit these to memory, tracking and picking up the high signs as well as the obvious--it was great. He has never been so serious--just wish he'd take that to school! 6 hours left in the season. Even though his tag is yet-unfilled; this has been a hunt to remember.

Ken M, The McCoy range is doable--but you just signed me on for some serious JAG liason! The LEOs and MIL guys are too easy, contractors of any sort with the Gov are easy too--but pulling civies into a match is real tricky since 9/11! Didn't say "no"--but it is a full time job for a week or two to grease it. I'm tight with the headshed--so better use me while I'm still CONUS! Email me some details of what you propose. I'll do a feasibility study (hahaha). My feasibility study consists of actually doing it. If it works, it was feasible. Screw staff work.

Nicole is bedding down her dollies all over the living room, and Raegan is watching Foxnews. Blake is in the woods bearing arms. The Mom's beat is quiet--Much to give thanks for this weekend.

Joe M.

BTW--if anyone scores some more of those BJ sandwiches, how 'bout bringing us all back one?

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:14:22 (ZULU)

>>>I was shooting my M1A Standard SA today, I'm thinking about selling this weapon for a G.A. Precision - Maybe for the "Rock" !!!

If I spend the money to get this M1A to shoot better groups, I could purchase a REAL GUN from G.A. Precision :>) !!!!!!!!!!!<<<

BearMan -

You ain't listening, dude. Your M1A Standard is doing the job it was intended for. It AIN'T a tack driver and was never meant to be one. But it does drop two-legged varmints at distance with a vengence. You're comparing APPLES with ORANGES!

New Load For The M16? -

Has anybody heard of a 6.7mm round being developed by Remington for the M16 weapons system? It supposedly uses the existing 5.56x45 case necked out for the larger bullet. Only weapon changes are new barrel, buffer and buffer spring. All else stays the same.

Master Boucher, Sinister, Undude?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:16:29 (ZULU)

When finished firing, go to the guard position. Search left and right using the guard position. If appropriate, do a tactical reload. Holster weapon. Manage magazines. Continue to march.

Do a speed reholster on my firing line, and you're finished shooting.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:21:28 (ZULU)

England has worst crime rate in world

By David Bamber, Home Affairs Correspondent

(Filed: 01/12/2002)

England and Wales have the highest crime rate among the world's leading economies, according to a new report by the United Nations.

The survey, which is likely to prove embarrassing to David Blunkett, the Home Secretary. shows that people are more likely to be mugged, burgled, robbed or assaulted here than in America, Germany, Russia, South Africa or any other of the world's 20 largest nations. Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales.

According to the comparison of international crime statistics produced by the UN's Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, England and Wales had 9,766 crimes for every 100,000 people in the year 2000. America had 8,517, South Africa 7,997, Germany 7,621 and Russia 2,022.

During the period 1998-2000, Britain went from fifth to fourth worst in the world league table. An analysis of total recorded crime figures before 1998 also suggests that England and Wales have moved sharply up the league table since Labour came to power in 1997. Crimes fell from 5.5 million in 1993 to 4.5 million in 1997. By 1999, total crimes had risen again to 5.3 million.

Last night Oliver Letwin, the shadow home secretary, said: "This does rather blow a hole in David Blunkett's claim that New Labour has crime under control. It is a damning picture."

The UN reports also shows that England and Wales are the second-worst places in the world for assaults, with 851 people assaulted per 100,000, and seventh for burglaries and car theft, with 1,579 burglaries per 100,000 population.

Criminologists believe that a note of caution needs to be introduced into analysis of the data, because of the different ways in which UN member countries record crimes.

A Home Office spokesman said that officials had not yet seen the report and so could not comment.

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/12/01/ncrime01.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/12/01/ixhome.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=189153

Surely this can't be true. The UK draconian gun laws should've made everyone safe...(and maybe it did)...for murderers, rapists, burglars, muggars and robbers.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:25:27 (ZULU)

Just got back from the sandhills. I agree with Brian, I felt kinda CS posting and leaving. I couldn't get the posts from earlier in the week so I don't know what happened. Hope I am still welcome here.

Sarge...2 things. How do you get those big mulies out of the sand. And has anyone ever actually measured how fast a Blue quail can run?

Brian, can probably help you on the knife thing some. Get with me off-line. Oh, and I've seen your Jock, that is if you are referring to the pink lacy things you dance around in.

The pistol issue became clear to me the first time I had to write a use of force report. Used to be sooo cool "as I deployed my cocked-and-locked .45 caliber COLT 1911 " then it became "I drew my glooock" (sounds like rectching). Just kidding guys. I agree...probably the most important thing is being in the mindset of actually using the thing.

Rich Johnson <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:32:26 (ZULU)

Steve; in answer to your question, yes, it is a design thing.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:06:57 (ZULU)

Pistol post deleted.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:52:21 (ZULU)

pistol deleted.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:06:43 (ZULU)

Moe -Easy - I know the M1A I have is a battle rifle. The point I was saying was if I trick the M1A out I will end up with a lot of money in this gun. If I still had my AR-10T I would hang with some bolt guns, ( some would say "no" - but? I would be close -Perhaps? :) ) I guess I made a mistake buying a gun that I thought I could get to shoot under 1 M.O.A. for a reasonable price. My first mistake!!! in life.......:)

He@# Moe I was really trying to get the page off of 1911 Pistols - So give me some credit for trying to change the subject, with what I guess was a stupid question.

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:58:48 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Shot my new 6 X 284 today in a Varmit Match today...

I have never shot a gun this accurate....I shot a 1.5" group at 625 yards in the warm up....On a sighter shot at 541yards. I called my sighter at a Bolt holding the Sighter Target and Nailed It.

Hit 38 of 40 targets. The wind was a real b%$@*ch. On one shot I was .5 minute right(hit), next shot 1.5 minutes left. Just missed the right edge @ 3 o'clock. Missed the other shot..9 Hits in a row at 300 yards. Out of no were I miss 2 inches to the right. The conditions were the same...I have no Idea what happened.

Anyway there I tied for second in my class...I am pretty happy for my first match...

If anyone is considering a Varmit rig, I highly recommend the 6X284...It is one flat shooting cartridge.

If anyone here is reloading this cartridge, please drop me a line, I would love to compare notes.

Cant wait to get my 300WMag back from Mike Rock...

bryan

bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:17:07 (ZULU)

Joe M, I tried three times to get an E-mail to you and it keeps bouncing. The one I sent to Moe looks like it out went OK, so it might be on your end. If your side is OK, I'll try something else from the this end. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:21:37 (ZULU)

I may be getting a nice chunk of change soon...considering the following:

HK USP Compact - .357 Sig. Either that or a HK Mark 23 tactical with a suppressor. I don't need one, but it'd be cool.

Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4 Carbine w/Aimpoint

Some very nice Leupold optics, a HS precision or Macmillan stock, a Jewelled (sp?) trigger, and a Harris bipod for my 700. Should I stick with my stock barrel? It's not a bull barrel.

I'm also considering a SPAS-12 or Benelli M1 tactical shotgun.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

Andrew T <andrewt@email.arizona.edu>
Tucson, AZ, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:56:44 (ZULU)

Before "Handgun Country" is laid to rest, I have another question. Has anyone here had any experience with the Springfield XD40? Good...bad? Looks like an improvement over the Glock.

Contact me offline if you wish.

On the 6.5 X .284... Shame it won't work on a REM 700 SA...or as least AS well as a LA. Is there anyway to extend the barrel life on that caliber or is that just a given? Got a 700 SA on a McMillan stock that would be a prime candidate for the next barrel changeover. Well...maybe the 260 Rem might be more betterer anyway. Which BTW, what is the barrel life on a .260?

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:00:16 (ZULU)

The following numbers were given to me by a man who I trust to tell me the truth as he understands it, but I don't trust numbers that I haven't personally verified. As of 1990, students at one of the top pistol schools had been in 220 pistol conflicts that the staff knew of. Those students won 218 and lost 2. One who lost was "Bonnie and Clyded" while at the same stop sign where he stopped every day. The BGs hid behind a hedge, then hosed down his car with squirt guns. He didn't pay attention during the Wednesday afternoon lecture. The other got into it somewhere in Western Africa with six guys. He got five, the sixth got him. This man had only taken the basic class.

This doctrine was worked out by very smart people. It is proven. It works.

It would well pay someone who worked in dangerous situations to go to one or more of the top schools, take all the training they give, then go practice a lot.

TAKE THE TRAINING!! THERE'S NO SUBSTITUTE!!

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:01:36 (ZULU)

pistol post deleted

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:25:57 (ZULU)

Rem. 700 LA Questions, if someone will be so kind as to give me some advice.

Well, went to purchase the Springfield 03 (for the action) but the pawn shop had a Rem. 700 LA .30-06 for $150 plus tax. The metal looked a lot better than the Rem. VS I am selling. Bought it.

It is a 1962 ADL, with a apx 20 inch barrel. Looks like first year of production. Has a cutout as if for stripper clips. I bought it for the action, but it did clean up OK, and may be just fine as it. It looks like a precurser to the Model 7. Short barrel. Nice adjustable trigger - a little different than the Rem VS.

But the plan was to build a heavy rifle, #7 (?) barrel. Questions: First, will the LA work with .308? Any essential mods? Any reason it will not feed and extract with a .308 barrel? Second, will the ADL work with BDL hardware and stock? Third, anything different about an early (1962) 700 long action that I should know about?

I have access to some tools, and can install a Shillen short-chambered barrel, and finish-ream it. (It's a hobby - I want to do the work myself.) But I do not want to invest in a .308 barrel if it is not going to feed well.

Anyway, it is nicer looking metal than the VS, and the price was right. Even if I do nothing to it other than scrub the barrel, it was a good deal.

Thanks for any information.

PMH

P. M. Hayden <pmhayden@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:31:29 (ZULU)

My responnce to 'yote Bate's three deleted pistol posts...

... deleted!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 06:49:41 (ZULU)

Alan: re. Norma's 6,5x55 DiamondLine FieldTarget.

The hispeed round is called 6.5x55 Norma DiamondLine Falt. It is listed on Norma's website, www.norma.cc. This round is spesially developed to give maximum ballistic performance combined with acceptable barrellife. This factory load give app. 4000 round barrellife in a hammerforged matchbarrel from Sauer or Heym. (Heym is actually a little better). The round is listed at 900ms in a 27" european barrel. That is app. 2950fps. In a tighter 24" US barrel (and Heym's new matchbarrels) it easily exceedes 3000fps. Pressure is 3200bar. After 4000 rounds in the european barrels the mv don't drop more than 30-50fps. This is very important for fieldtarget shooters (and snipers ?) as they memorize their sightsettings in clicks on the peepsights. Trajectories and windriftsettings remain identical through the entire barrellife. This factory load is easily duplicated with Norma's 130gr VLD molycoated bullet and Norma N204 powder. N204 used to be almost identical to RL19 produced by Bofors in Sweden. I don't know were RL19 is produced today.

Comparing this 6.5x55 load to a 6.5-284 is interesting. I've seen winning 1000yds handloads for the latter giving app. 3000fps with 140/142gr Sierra MatchKings. The BC. on the Norma 130gr is almost identical to the Sierra but the SD. is ofcource inferior. Still a click or 2 more windage can save a shooter a lot of money. Think 10000 rounds per season...

I think US shooters has something to learn from their European counterparts when it comes to competitive longrange shooting. In the last 10 years the latest modular rifles from Sauer and Blaser ( Sauer outsells Blaser by 100 to 1 ) and new ammo from Norma, Lapua and Raufoss has revolousionized the sport. The scores overall have been improved by a quantum leap from the days of custombuilt targetrifles. Now an unexperienced shooter can buy a new rifle, some boxes of ammo and have competitive equipment from day one. When his barrel is shot out he replaces it himself with a new one in 15min.

Btw. even JR at Border in Scotland can ship new dropin barrels for the Sauer. They list 6.5x55 and 6mmBR Norma.

TorF

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:44:24 (ZULU)

Ref: Grip Safeties

I built my house in the mid-80's when I was out of my mind over IPSC shooting. So I built an indoor 50' range as part of the basement. Sinsister has been there, can I get an "Amen"?

Anyhow, I was shooting 200 rounds a night back then trying to win stupid wooden plaques on the weekend. I picked up one of those 7" AMT longslides for a song and was in the range doing one-shot draws with it. I was already pretty well conditioned and my draws were "ironed in" for a five inch gun. The buzzer went off and I snatched the piece, drew it five inches out of the Bianci Chapman holster and started the presentation. The hitch was that two inches of slide was still in the holster. The pistol wrenched out of my hand wiping off the safety at the same time. I watched the big silver .45 pinwheel in slow motion down the range sweeping me with it's muzzle on every rotation. It clattered onto the concrete about ten feet in front of me and came to rest pointing up range.

I'm glad Mr.Browning put that grip safety into his design.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:58:20 (ZULU)

PMH,

The old 700 LA will work fine with 308 but you must be careful when you load the rifle sliding each round fully to the rear as you place them in the magazine. The Army specified a LA for the M24 with the idea that later the guns would be rebarreled to a longer cartridge (300 WM?). One advantage of the LA is that you never have a problem with reloads being too long for the magazine.

There have been a few changes over the years but the action is essentially the same as new production. Biggest concern for you would be replacement extractors. The old model was held in place by a small rivet while the new ones are a semicircular spring design. I believe either are plenty strong and if there was a problem the USMC or Army would have required a change by now. With the age of your action it might not be a bad idea to change the extractor with the barrel. You will need the old model and the rivet. By the way, I saw more than 10 old Remington 700 (M40) extractors, vintage 1968, go an estimated 40,000+ rounds before giving up. All of the actions were from the same production year and had lived through several barrels.

Marc

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 09:38:34 (ZULU)

The New Army?

I watched a piece on the History channel this AM. Army recruits 3 day TX prior to graduation. Program begins, 3 or 4 soldiers wander in 10 minutes late for initial brief. Interview soldier about the 6 mile march w/35 pound ruck, her concerns? Blisters on her feet. 1st day, 1 soldier lost-unaccounted for. Soldier said," he was dead so we left him". 1st night, perimeter security breached- latrine call took to long. It didn't get anymore reassuring. I truly respect our men and women in service but that production was an insult to anyone who serves or has served. I've seen a comparable piece on the Marine Corps gradution TX and it instilled a high level of confidence in the viewer. This was a travesty. Doesn't the Army preview these things?

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 10:03:28 (ZULU)

Brain Sain - Thanks for the compliment on my last post, I appreciate it sir.

Pete L - You are just a hunting madman...great hunt Pete !!

Knives - The thought of getting cut by a guy scares the hell out of me, more then getting shot, not that I'm looking to have either happen thank you very much. I don't know why it just does and I can't possibly explain it. Spooky stuff indeed.

Glocks - My department issues Glaock 40's and we have to carry them as our duty pistols. I hated Glocks until I started using one now I like my G22 a lot. As far a street cops go it is a very good choice...low maintenance and reliable. Now, with all that said...

1911's RULE !!!!!!

Be safe,

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, CA, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 11:30:36 (ZULU)

TorF sounds like he's on to something. On Thursday I posted a question about a switch barrel system that would have some of the same benefits. It seems to have been buried by 1911 V Glock Volume 147.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 12:58:32 (ZULU)

Chris & Wes..

When I got home from work on Wed. I had my barreled action laying in the chair with a new 260 Kreiger barrel on it!!

I of course headed out to the range with all my gear and proceeded to break it in. The first 10rds down the barrel were nice and smooth. It took two rounds to get it on the paper and then the next 3 went into a .4 cleaning between each shot. The next five went into a .3 cleaning inbetween each shot. Needless to say I was a happy camper!!

I did some load testing with lighter loads (I was using the 38grs of Varget load that was for my 22" bbl. rifle) and it seemed to like the hotter load the best. This rifle also likes the 142s better than the 140 AMAXs. Wouldn't you just know it would be that way since I have a bunch of 140 AMAXs!! I shot it at 200yds and it put 5 into a .625 group. Then I started at 300 on out to 700yds but just shot 3 shot groups for 300 on out. It stayed at .5 MOA all the way to 700yds. The 3 shot at 700yds was 2.25" but that was one of those lucky groups we all like to brag about(HA).

I am very pleased with the way the Kreiger is shooting to say the least!! I had it made with a 24" since the 22" shot out to a 1000yds with no problems.

TorF..

Hey old friend glad to see you back on and posting again!! My shooting buddy is going to build a 6.5x55 and I could use some good loading data if you would be kind enough to send me some off line. Thanks!!

Ken..

You tell'em and don't hold back on your feelings either!!!(HA)Glad your on our side!!

Marc..

We will just have to agree to disagree, You need to shoot some machine gun ammo once in a sniper rifle. I have, and it sucks!!! So I guess Iam just a "Poser" and he is one hell of a lot better shot than me to get any hits past 500yds. And by the way I "DO" shoot to 1000yds and have had over 90" of wind dialed into my 308 doing it. In fact I thought my bullets were starting to key hole because of the marks they were making on the paper. It was just the drop and angle they were coming in at that was making the marks.

My son was home this weekend and he was shooting his 308 with 180gr Match Laupas and had 2 min. of wind on his rifle at 600yds shooting 180s compared to my 1 min of angle with the 142s at 600yds. Now go figure!! Maybe this doesn't work out on your computer but that was what it was in the real world on that day, on his rifle, with a 26" Hart barrel with a 1-12 twist. Both were dead on at 100yds by the way.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 14:42:46 (ZULU)

Torf;

I shot one of the new Sig switch barrels this weekend, even during all this Cock, I mean Glock fight and nose bleeds. The rifle was a hunting weight barrel synthetic stock with a trigger mechanism that exceeds 700 Remington quality. The rifle wasn't pillar bedded but floated and fitted nicely. It would have taken some reloading to come up with the 1 MOA that the box guaranteed. It has a great recoil pad and was quite nice to shoot. Identical bases front and rear was a nice touch.

25-06 was the caliber and we didn't switch barrels but all in all it was a nice hunting rifle. Black Matte all over. IT was one of the cheaper ones that are just being felt in America.

Kevin; that "thing" happened to a IPSC opponent trying me on pepper poppers with a brand spanking new Wilson and a normal size barrel,everyone was ducking. I blessed the safety that day myself. I posted it a little while back. I'll suppress my true feelings on that problem but I've seen it manifest it'self many times with the 1911.

My appology to the senstive ones for going into the Glock thing but it was already going for 2 days if you remember right you guys were about through kicking the poor chap around when I entered it.

I'm not sure why pistols is a taboo subject with you so called Snipers. Other than the fact it's been overdone a few times here and elsewhere, it's never been settled and probably never will.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 15:02:44 (ZULU)

http://www.imageevent.com/ken6ppc/semphotos

Check out these Photos of various Barrel interiors!!

To Brush or not to Brush,what a question??

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin <sdzupin@optonline.net>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:08:38 (ZULU)

Wes..

I forgot to mention that I would be very intrested in the loading data you have on the 6.5x308s if you would be kind enough to share it. Thanks!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:23:41 (ZULU)

Sauer rifles.

To avoid confusion. The following matchtype Sauer rifles have interchangable barrels: Sig-Sauer SSG3000, Sauer 202TR, Sauer 200STR, Sauer205 Target and SSG(sniper). These rifles all have a very heavy match-type action with a match-quality trigger. The SSG3000, 202TR and 200STR have identical action and use a conventional onepiece stock and have a 5-round mag. I have not handled the new 205. It seems to have a 2-piece stock like a LeeEndfield and 10-round mag. All barrels from the Sauer 202 huntingrifle in short and medeum caliber fit the matchrifles.

All matchbarrels also fit the 200 and 202 hunting and varmintrifle in std. length action. Almost... Sauer has made the receiver on the huntingrifle a little bit to long. I think it's 2/10mm. Go figure. Remove this and all barrels are dropin. No problem with headspace. The bolt locks into the barrel. This rifle has a 2-piece stock. All different stocks interchange in the same length action.All are "dropin" an do not need any bedding.

The following sell barrels foe these rifles: Sauer, Heym and Border.

Hello Pat!

Here's a teaser. Raufoss factoryammo in 6.5x55:

1002

RA 6,5 SKAN Super Sierra

9,3g / 144 gr.

770 m/sek

1003

RA 6,5 SKAN Super Sierra

9,1g / 140 gr.

800 m/sek

1004

RA 6,5 SKAN Super Sierra

9,3g / 144 gr.

800 m/sek

1006

RA 6,5 SKAN Rekrutt Sierra

6,5g / 100 gr.

800 m/sek

Black King (Moly-Coat )

1011 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Hi.Sp. Black King 9,1g LD / 140 gr. 850 m/sek

1012 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 9,3g / 144 gr. 770 m/sek

1014 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 9,3g / 144 gr. 800 m/sek

1016 RA 6,5 Skan Rekrutt Sierra Black King 6,5g / 100 gr. 800 m/sek

1017 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 6,9g LD / 107 gr. 950 m/sek

1018

RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 6,9g LD / 107 gr. 870 m/sek

TorF

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:45:31 (ZULU)

MK4,

On .260 barrel life: About 40 rounds.

This remmy pipe sucks.

(it's a joke son! Laugh--at my expense though--this model seven just won't stop fouling).

Ken--try building my email into a profile, then blast away. Others have similar problems if they use the webbrowser mail function (click and blast won't workie to a mil server).

Hawgs-Official skunking on Blake's first season. He had a shot yesterday, but he mashed the trigger trying to "hurry the bullet" along. A real mover, he learned something from it. Rushing isn't fast. Other than that, we had a very good time together. Years of banging his head about "responsibility" made him understand the seriousness of loaded arms. He was "all ears" throughout the hunt. If firearms are such an attention-getter, why did we let the bed-wetters nix all the shooting teams in our schools? I can think of no better vehicle for teaching youth civil responsibility than this! Blake impressed me--I underestimated the effect of a rifle on his attitude. I suppose it comes from a healthy respect and years of brainwashing. He could recite the rules before his ABCs!

Wife had a low-speed pursuit through town. Sheriff Dept joins in. Line of cruisers 5 deep, with flankers on the parallel streets (wife was shadowing from the side). Drunk psycho decides he doesn't like the flashing lights, so he rops reverse. Lead cruiser stops, but second cop is on the radio. Lead cruiser takes simultaneous hits from perp in front and cruiser in rear at about 25 mph. Perp gets his bumper pinned under the cruiser, and goes to jail for left over turkey. This cruiser is fubar--and bent upward at the cab about 18 inches. Naturally, the doors are fused. Cop is pissed, but otherwise OK. Windows only rolled down 4 inches, so he could only bitch. If he had gotten out, he woulda beat the perp and the deputy about the head and shoulders. City versus County bickering over who pays what. Wife laughed so hard after the arrest that she dropped her doughnut! I laughed too when she relayed this, and I spilt my beer! Cops have a cool life...where else outside of the stooges can you see this stuff????

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 17:30:23 (ZULU)

Pat,

Failure to pay attention to detail will get you in trouble, hurt, or maybe dead. Since you missed it before I will repeat it again, 1000 yards is not 1000 meters. 1000 yards is 914 meters. Please note yards and meters are not the same thing. Firing at a humanoid target located 1000 meters down range using a sight setting developed for 1000 yards is a guaranteed miss regardless of the cartridge. I said they had not shot at 1000 meters. U. S. Military Posts do not have 1000 meter KD ranges. It is a very common error to misrepresent ranges substituting meters for yards and many U. S. trained snipers refer to shooting 1000 meters when they have in fact possibly shot at 1000 yards. Since you needed to tell me you have fired at 1000 yards, I HAVE shot at 1800 meters with a Remington SR8 at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1998 and this is on record. Please note I said meters. 1800 meters is 1968.48 yards. Should you need the conversion in the future, 1 meter = 1.0936 yards i.e. 100 meters = 109.36 yards.

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:05:58 (ZULU)

Joe M, seems I finally got an E-mail off in your direction. You can't cut and paste anything from the internet and send to your address. That makes for lots of typing. Oh well, life's hard all over.

Marc, my semi-local range now has a 1200yd line, so I can shoot and zero at 1097.3m and at 1000m too, should I so choose. Regardless, if someone is using one system or the other CONSISTANTLY they will have no problems. I use yards, and when I call the arty boys and use yards when I ought to use meters, it won't mean a thing because 155mm DPICM STOT missions have kill radii in the hundreds of meters(or yards;-) S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:26:07 (ZULU)

Marc,

Holy cow! All this time I thought meter was French for yard! Thanks for the heads-up on that one.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:31:39 (ZULU)

Joe: The truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

Rich: Shhhhhhhhhh ! I got Brit friends that think I just wear the pink stuff for them.

Mark D: Don't listen to Rich Johnson. He's lying Mark. You know you're the only one.

Wes: 1911, BHP, Sig220, Glock. In that order, for me personally.

USP/S&W autos bite.

Glock: AK of the pistol world, No soul but works - Both damn good descriptions.

Knives: Within about 21 ft. a guy with a blade OUT will usually beat a guy with a pistol IN. No boom, no flash. Most don't practice knife fighting anymore. Just left the mecca of old world knife fighting in the US - The Big Easy, New Orleans, LA. ... just curious.

A Bagwell Bowie starts at $ 900.00. Am aware of the new copies.

Great, great Grandpa is said to be quite possibly Jean Lafitte himself (according to some of the family stuff).

Go figure ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:35:17 (ZULU)

CDC- You have incoming with attachments.

BRogers-- I really was curious about your thoughts re: pistol training, hit me up on e-mail to avoid further sh@$ storm.

Steve

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:38:54 (ZULU)

Sain,

I'm gonna hafta challenge that often mentioned 21 foot rule. Here's the test... you get a plastic knife and setup 21 feet from me. I get a cap gun in my belt. Someone yells go and I start running away from you and you start running at me....Bet I get to shoot at you 10 times over my shoulder before you touch me with that knife.

Maybe I'm wrong, but at this moment, I'm unconvinced.

edit added for clarity - I previously established on this roster that I am a terrible shot with a pistola... the idea would be to have knife man slow up just a bit, so I could get away.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:43:45 (ZULU)

Jim,

We had a guy bring that up at the academy so we ran through it using paint balls guns and one of those plastic halloween knifes with the retracible blade. The problems were this:

You first had to turn to run away (letting the BG get closer), its hard to shoot accurately while running, plus you have to look back to see what you are shooting at which mean you arent watching what you about to run into and probably not able to run your fasted with your body twisted. So you may get 10 shots AT but may not get a hit atleast not a lethal one. We ran through this with everyone at the academy with the instructor being the Attacker. 19 our of 21 of us got stuck. It was determine the best approach was to shoot off the hip, side step the charging attacker and use hand to hand defense to try and block the stabbing arm of the attack. After about 5 slow motion drills. 15 of us made it without injury.

Ty Warren <Ty36608@aol.com>
Mobile, AL, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:00:01 (ZULU)

Marc..

Bully for you, but like I said we will still have to agree to disagree. By the way I do know the difference between meters and yds but for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone who isn't military uses them. I have shot to 1300yds or 1188.7344 meters with my 6.5x284.

I am not worried about mixing up yds and meters when I am shooting. I use a range finder in yds or my mil dot master in yds. When I shoot with my son and he uses his military range finder in meters I just convert it to yds.

I am not intrested in getting into a "Mines bigger than yours" contest. I like the 308s, as I said way back last week, but they can not compete with the 6.5s when it comes to shooting long range in a "Standard" round. Now if you want to talk magnums thats another story but then have you ever looked at the ballistics of a 6.5x300 Weatherby?? I rest my case and enough said.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:05:45 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Been quite a long time since posting.

Both you and Sain is correct. Old training standards talk of the 21 foot rule.(Dennis Tueller drill) If you stand still (key) and the perp comes at you w/knife while you draw to shoot him, you WILL get cut.

On your side, yes, these days, training focuses on movement toward cover and/or movement away from the threat. Most any movement is your ally. No sane person (pun) would willingly stay in a knife fight.

Now, with regard to shooting over one's shoulder while running... e-yow, way bad juju. Other than perhaps Butch Cassidy or the Sundance Kid, don't know of anyone who can pull that one off. In LE circles, we certainly do not suggest the tactic. Get distance, cover, then setup & dispatch the threat with adequate and/or necessary volumes of large diameter projectiles.

My dept does this annually with rubber knives & pistols with primer powered cotton wadded boolits. Have some of those friggin expensive simunitions pistols now. VERY good training.

Long gone are the days of John Wayne stand & shoot it out methods. Besides, If'n we didn't teach/train movement, we would be guilty of improper / inadequate training. Numerous supreme court citations to cover such stuff. Wisconsin has pretty decent LE support at the capitol. LE recruit academies even actively support & promote close quarters shots to the face of the perp and CNS shot placement focus. Fairly pregresive these days.

out

Deputy Doug <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:25:36 (ZULU)

Brian,

I'll scratch your eyes out........

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:28:50 (ZULU)

Yiiihaaa!

There's some hot posts going on round here! Like 'splaining the meter to yard conversion...hell, what's that bent metal thingy hanging under the wood on my guns for? If I hit it just right, the dang thing makes a loud noise and holes appear in my target!

Thank god for the statements of the obvious...most of us here couldn't find a range fan on a hot day...I'd say more on this subject but I have to go to S4 and pick up a box of grid squares and a can of liquid squelsh for the radios.

Anybody know where I can get some canopy lights for the night jump?

And for the former DATs, we need 3 gallons of track tension...

Marc, you owe Pat an apology for the condenscending remarks...he doesn't have a stem sticking outta his head (as in "cherry"). But thanks, I always wondered why I had two different formulas for ranging. Nyulck-nyulck...

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:35:47 (ZULU)

Guys,

a big question about a Rem 700 PSS. If someone could give me some advice, I'll be a happy bunny!

I've bought meself a new Rem 700 PSS (.223). I've used Leupold 2-piece mounts and rings to mount a cheap 3-9x40 scope (until I can get me a Leupold or S&B).

Problem is that I've used my collimator (Always given good zeros in the past), and I've had to add 25MOA of 'up' elevation from mechanical zero to boresight the rifle.

This leaves me with only 5MOA of 'up' adjustment left - not enough adjustment, as I intend to use this at 600yds.

As you are expert gunsmiths (you posses big screwdrivers and even

bigger hammers), do you have any recommendations as to what I can do with this?

I presume that its a barrel alignment problem?

Would 'blueprinting' resolve this problem?

Thanks again,

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:45:06 (ZULU)

Okay boys, guess I better clarify meself.

I ain't talking about going mano e mano against some other martial artist with a knife, gun or H2H. That shit rarely happens in the real world.

I am talking about using a big assed knife, on the street. Now we all know street fighting ain't the dojo.

Most street guys don't know the 21 foot rule.

Most street guys ain't gonna get 5 practice runs at it.

Most street guys ain't gonna think fast enough to run and it will be too late if they do against someone with the will and the skill.

Plus, if they do run, why not let em go ? Beats a ton of paperwork and messing up a good shirt.

Most tactical minded guys, if they are a thinking man, will have either their knife or pistol in their hand because they are savvy enough to see it coming. (Unless of course, you been drinking hurricanes and then you go for the one in the middle).

Jimbo: Get a buddy and give it a go some time. Switch weapons and positions for grins. Of course, YOU ALREADY KNOW he's going to charge with a knife. That gives you a little bit of an edge. Most turds would never see it coming 'til it was too late. You might get a shot or two off (starting from the holster) but you are probably going to get stuck.

Mark: You better have supper ready when I get home.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:06:46 (ZULU)

21 Feet and your gonna cut me with a knife? I guess I must be using a 1911 in this drill! Or you NINJa's can catch bullets in your teeth. How far can a man move in .4 seconds. You better have a head of steam up there or you'd be one dead Ninja. Maybe OJ on his best day if he was running full out but he'd be one dead..uh..quarterback. IF you can go from 0 to 10 mph in 0 seconds you'll get your first round from my glock at about 5.9 feet from where you start. The closer you get the more shots in your face.

Gee;s this place.

Oh well, Brian I'm gonna send you a picture of my Bowie. Made for me by a friend of mine. IT'll be scanned for V and in a J Peg. .

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:19:21 (ZULU)

What is it about the PSS?

What is it about the PSS that evokes such emotion? I mind my business and don't start with anyone. When shooting pistols or shotguns, other rifles, even the SKS no one has a problem, but likely as not some Dick Head will have to talk some shit when I'm shooting the PSS. Is it because it's configured as a sniper instead of a sporter? Is it the bipod? Maybe its me.

No, couldn't be.

Does a Stealth bring Dick out too, or is it just the PSS?

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:23:27 (ZULU)

Bisley Tee-eye-dubba-guh- rrrrr,

I just had a very similar problem with a model seven and loopy two piece bases. The rear sits lower on the reciever than it should, causing one's bullets to burn worms. Not good. My quickfix was to slap a scope on her that had enough elevation to get on zero. Next is either shim (probably not--the Mod 7 has very little bearing surface at the rear as is) or just go with the weaver one piece and lots of locktite (three screw mount). It appears that you hit the same problem.

Could Remmy have changed the reciever dimensions? Did Loopy screw the pooch?

Lito--what say you?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:35:29 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger - use brass shims under the rear mount to get the lelvation back. All of us use some sort of sloped base to solve the problem. Badger base and rings will solve the problem for you as the base has 20 MOA built in.

Pistol Country - The way you guys argue about pistols, sound like an arguement about the best wife/girlfriend. Their is one that's the best and she is mine!!!!!HA...... Don't rifle's take enough of your time????? CDC is right, train with what you have. I have seen just about all the named types work with training and practice. For me, a pistol is a last resort weapon. I want it to work when I need it regardless of how long it has been since a cleaning, how wet it has been for the last week in the Swamp woods, or what type of cheap ammo I have in it. I shoot Glocks because i like them and they meet my criteria batter than any other, I also have a Kimber 1911 and a Colt Combat Comander SS. I like the 1911's for carry around town where things are clean. But for field work/ Hunting sidearm/ or a combat arm the Glocks are what I choose.

Moe - From what I have heard your info is correct on the 6.7mm x 45 M-16 round. Looks like several boolet weights are being tried, from 90 to 130 grains.

My thoughts on the 6.5 thing. They are all barrel burners when pushed buy enough powder to give you magnum performance. Without the big push they are just like any other caliber. I am a big guy so I look at it as a lot of .300 WM wanna be's that are not tough enough to handle the real deal.

I will duck now and wait for the incoming.

Bruce - Got the License plate and sticker last Friday. Really neat and I appreciate your making these for us. Thanks

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:36:38 (ZULU)

B Rogers... one thing is fur sure.. 9mmP, 40 cal or .45 cannot be depended on to stop a man dead in his tracks with one round... heck, not with three. I have had 'lovely' conversations with men that collected a round in the face from any/all of the above mentioned calibers... they were darn sure capable of knifing me at the time.

I was having fun at Mr Sain's expense because I really like the guy and appreciate his humor.. we all know that teaching cops the limitations of thier issue weapon is critical to survival.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:37:35 (ZULU)

21 FOOT DEAL

You guys been watching to much tv!! When people get shot they dont just fall down and say "tell my wife I love her" and die.

I have seen a man shot 3 times with a .38, all tourso shots, standing on the corner trying to flag down the ambulance. I asked the guy when I saw him if he knew wear the guy that got shot was? He said very calmly "yea me" well alrighty then!

We arn't saying you can't get some hot lead into the bad guy. We are saying his momentum will carry his body into you unless you are doing some serious back stepin, and unless you scored a central nervous system hit high in the body you have not take his ability to fight.

If anyone pulls a knife on me they are gonna get 14 rounds of .45

really quick.

I have seen knife wounds they are real bad.

Jim Anderson <ocso245@hotmail.com>
OKC , OK, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:44:17 (ZULU)

Bill, you should go to any of the big schools and take on all comers. Do something that favors a quick draw artist - a Mozambique will do - then report back. Or you could just go undefeated through the Steel Challenge. That should be a breeze. Leatham's draw is somewhere around .65 sec. He wouldn't stand a prayer.

These pups who only THINK they know something about the subject will handicap themselves by shooting 1911s. Of course you'll beat them all easily. It won't be any contest.

I've shot against some guys who had impressive credentials and whole rooms full of trophies, but I've never seen anyone as good as you.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:47:30 (ZULU)

D. Wiede,

OK, I gotta ask---is your first name "Dick"? I mean, well, Dick Weed has a cool ring to it. And if you grew up with that moniker, you gotta be one tough bastich!!!!

But on the range thing...the M3 LR will get the conversation heading south with "serious hunters" doing their annual three shot zeros. Must be those big dangerous knobs! Now you know why I bought a farm and built my own place to shoot. I don't suffer fools very well. And the "public" ranges attract all kinds. Next time someone makes a smart-assed comment about your equipment--check out the rifle in their hands. Two to one it runs Ruger MK 77, 710, 7400 or 7600. With a Bushnell on top. Someone else pointed that out to me--and the couple of times I had negative comments--it was a 7400 and a ruger. Oooops. I am profiling. Someone call the PC police!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:51:10 (ZULU)

Medicjim,standing within 21 feet and most guys would have you before you took two steps the other way. You would look like a lamb being eaten by a lion. You have no choice but to fight that one out. I have worked with this too much to dispute what Brian said.

Now if I had to rate pistols, the 1911 is first, then the Glock, then the Sig, then who cares they are about the same.

All NG,AD's whatever you wnat to call them are shooter induced and generally a training issue. Finger goes on trigger and the weapon goes bang, as long as it has ammo and is in good working order.

Undude

MIkeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:53:11 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I have that box of grid squares and the liquid squelch you need, trade you for some chemlite batteries, a hundred feet of shore line, or a set of Humvee keys.

As far as the knife/gun thing, I might get stuck, but he WILL get shot!

Geeze, I go to Jersey for a few days for a wedding, and miss the pistol country debate, let's see, where's my S&W Model 28??????

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florida, Land of the TH-57's - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:58:19 (ZULU)

Kush,

Yeah...and apply four coats of hand-rubbed rotor-wash on yer frog--it'll go fasterer!

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:06:55 (ZULU)

OK, who says you will be lucky and have your assailant as far away as...hang on, let me work out the maths.... 6.40087m, ( Marc is that 21 feet?) what if the SOB is only a couple of feet away, you won't get time to draw before he has stuck you. What if you aren't allowed to carry a firearm as a means of self defence? Either you have had the mind to get some un armed combat training and can hope your reactions are quick enough, or your screwed. On 2 occasions i have been confronted with a mean son of a bitch with a knife, The first one was about to stick my Dad in the belly, Army hand to hand combat training ( and a 4ft part of a cleaning rod for a Chieftan tank) saved the day. The SOB was out cold for 4 hours and got 17 stitches, his gang mates got rid of the damn knife ( it flew out of his hand when i battered him)and carried him off to hospital. We made a retreat in doors and they knew i owned a shot gun so they didn't follow (the gun never came out of the safe)I got busted by the cops (although it was my mother that called em)because the 5 gang assholes said i had started it, Yeah right,the fact that they where out side our damn back door and had been waiting for me to come home so they could give me a kicking didn't count for a fart, Luckily(for me) one of them got into a fight a couple of weeks later and knived some one and that reflected on my situation favourably. Second time i've wrote about before, Ruskie pimp pulled a knife on me out side a video shop, this time i pulled my pistol and he shit his self. On both occasions I ( or my Dad) was very very lucky that the guy with the knife was hesitant, not quite at the stage of an all out attack(although a split second from it in case 1) Both times the situation could have gone the other way. People who use knives are nasty, and Yep the UK is a dangerouse place ( and Germany is getting there too).

I see we are back to the Yards-Meters thing, METERS ARE EASIER TO WORK OUT, ITS ALL 1's or 10's.

TorF, I've got 2 of those new Heym match barrels you mention (although one is sporter weight) they shoot REAL well.and yeah i think they make barrels for the Sauer too, I was tinkering with the idea of having a Sauer 202 with a 308, 20" moderated barrel, be just the job for the UK, Have to leave the barrel at my parents though. I will buy a 202 if this stupid 5 gun rule comes out, I would certainly want to spend some time swapping barrels back and forth and making a data book about swapping so i could gain confidence in it, but like i said before, the Sauers i have played with up to now ( all 200's and 202's) haven't varied more than a half inch or so when removing and replacing barrels. I just don't know if i would want to go into harms way with one of this type, i guess i'd have to have confidence in it first, just something in the back of my mind says give me a rifle that has the barrel screwed in tight. I guess maybe it is the Blaser R93 that has put me off switch barrel jobs, but it doesn't compare with the Sauer rifles in quality.

Brogers was that a Sig SHR 970? a mate (he's a Sgt in a Brit Tankie Regt) has one, he likes it better than the Rem 700 i sorted out for him(blaspheming git that he is, but he would insist on that damn Choate stock, heavey sucker to hunt with) I call it the poor mans Sauer 202. They are all the same company, Blaser-Sig-Sauer any way.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:07:32 (ZULU)

Dan what do you want from me? You wanna video? I've seen Leatham's he's a fine shot. Where does it say I can beat him in anything I've ever posted? My stuff ain't about metal plates and paper targets. You've not seen me, why do you assume I can't? Leathams draw and mine are like apples and oranges. He's got his hand on his gun in my video of him when he starts . But your right about one thing .65 doesn't stand a chance. Why don't you send me one if you want to prove something. Go ahead and scare the hell out of me!

Remember cowboy, you started this one! I've not bothered you.

You think I'm full of it so just go ahead and announce it. Who's feelings are you sparing. You don't have a damn thing to base it on.

You guys and your scenerios that change every five minutes.

I'm sorry I've ventured an opinion, on the some kind of 21 foot rule. Hell you can say the same thing about a damn water buffalo.

I don't need this shit. I'm gone and I won't be back.

You guys can shove this place up your ass.

Hows that for a Christmas present? Danny Boy!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:14:42 (ZULU)

Fellas ...

Didn't mean to start a war with the knife thing. Was just kickin' around the idea of getting some training that I do not have.

I got a friggin' brace o pistols, and my pick from the safe of ALL the models mentioned here on PISTOLA COUNTRY in the last week. Believe it or not, I am somewhat proficient with them.

I usually carry at the very least a KelTec .32, a nice sized folder and a little Swiss Army. A SureFire light and cell phone isn't far behind.

The back alleys of NO are really dark. Damn ole drunks will shank you if you look like an easy mark.

BILL: Nice knife. Thanks for the pic !

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:34:45 (ZULU)

Damn Joe,

that's a good idea, I'm donna have to fill out an ID10T form and get me some of that, does it work on cars too?????

Bisley Tiger, As said, go with the plethora of tapered bases. Shims will work, but why mess around?

Yards to meters, there's a difference?????

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florida, Land of the TH-57's - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:39:24 (ZULU)

I find it hard to believe how bent out of shape people are getting over sawed off, underpowered, wanna-be rifles! Jesus. The damn things are your last ditch hope and a matter of personal taste, like a knife. Caliber and reliability are more important than any given design. If you know what you're doing and you're well practiced, then it'll work for you. I like 1911's, I prefer them to the Glock I own, but I would not feel unarmed with either. Underarmed, yeah. But I always feel that way without an arty battery on the other end of a radio, so there.

Joe M, did you receive the second transmission with the actual information in it? It didn't report as bounce, so I assume it went through. Nasty word that.

Working on preping 30-06 brass for conversion to 280 AI. The dies are on the way. I'm going to anneal with a propane torch and a pan of water, do I anneal before or after necking down? I'd rather not collapse the shoulder if I can help it. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:57:03 (ZULU)

Brian: No war on my end. I just posted some things I know about Bowies. There was some good info posted for those who hadn't heard it before, eg: Move laterally, don't count on quick stops, don't underestimate them, etc.

On pistola country: Why should I send anyone videotapes? My pistol shooting is nothing spectacular. The only claim I made is that if someone "speed-holstered" on my line he'd be finished shooting.

And Ken M is right. A handgun is something you use if a real gun isn't available.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:57:59 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger...

You didn't say "which" two piece bases you have. If you have the "STD" bases and rings, toss them in the garbage.

Get a pair of Lupold "QRW" bases for the M700, and a set of Burris "Signature ZEE" rings (medium for normal scopes). This will solve your problems. If it turns out that you still don't have enough elevation, Burris makes a kit with many sizes of shims... all of my 1" scopes are in Burris "Z" rings, and are set up so the 100 zero is at the bottom of the elevation turret... it's all "up" from there. You can get a total of 40 MOA of taper with these excellent rings.

It is NOT a barrel alignment problem... but sometimes a very big hammer does wonders to these kinds of problems ;))

'yote Bate...

>"21 Feet and your gonna cut me with a knife? I guess I must be using a 1911 in this drill!"<

Hell... I'll use a 1911 in that drill, and have time for a beer. That Ninja fella mush have springs for feets!

Jim Anderson...

>"...just fall down and say "tell my wife I love her" and die."<

If I'm divorced, and hate my "Ex", does that mean I'll survive all the gun and knife fights ;)))

Dick Weed...

The problem is that many of us have owned PSS's (I have had 3), and one gets tired of the poor quality barrels, poor workmanship, poor stock to action fit, and two day cleaning rituals... I know that yours is great, but the rest of us are tired of it, especially in a gun that is typically $150 over it's twin varmint version, the VS.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:14:25 (ZULU)

Man, ever notice how the most condensed, useful, info to brainchew comes out here during the pissing contests? This site is at it's best informationwise during these running, heated arguments....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:35:07 (ZULU)

What the f!ck are you bitches babbling about now.....

'Yote Bait,

You can't stay in the sage brush forever mang,,, youse got to come home for supper.

21'?? If I can run away,, I will. Scared feet run faster than angry feet. If I have to fight,, I will,, but you best be prepared to kill me,, cause if I have to fight I'm gonna kill you,, even if I have to eat your goddamn throat.

D. Wiede,

Yes,, assholes come out of the woodwork when the stealth comes out of the case. It don't matter who makes the black rifle,, the ignorant are drawn to fat tubes like crack whores to truck stops.

Meter vs. Yards... the M60 ranges in Wieldflicken were in meters in the early 90's,,, the M-16 ranges at Campbell were yard in the mid 90's... If you're ranging you're target instead of guessing,, who gives a shit what units you range in?

Pat,

You lucky SOB,,,, You make me wanna cry every time I read one of those posts. Hope you and Jr. had a good visit. After seeing how this 260 is gonna do,, you still thinking about a 6/22-250?

It hit 18 degrees last night in TN. You can tell it's winter because everyone is getting at each others throats,,,, Kinda like family,,,, I'm off to find the batteries for a PRC E-8,, ya'll try and behave...

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:40:41 (ZULU)

Lito - D. Wiede and Joe are talking about other shooters at the range........LOL

I did what Joe did and bought land and have my own range. Even guys I know at the Sportmans club seem to get all stupid when a M1 or M3 LR comes out on any rifle. I shoot Ar-10's alot so I really get the attention from the idiots. I get tired of explaining that it is a .308 and not a .223 Bushmaster. My Stealth in the Woodland A4 stock with the M3 is a surefire idiot magnet. I am amazed how many guys saw one just like it in Desert Storm on the Discovery Channel re runs!!!!!

BRogers - take a deep breath. I think you took some good natured ribbing too seriously. I didn't even ask if Shepturd makes a scope for a Glock????? LOL HA HA LOL. One thing the Pistola debate shows is how personal are choices are. Pistols are like women, their are different ones out their with differing taste, but they all get the job done. But the one you picked is the best for you, and you better know it.....or you are in for a world of hurt if you feel otherwise.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:47:51 (ZULU)

CDC, You said "No war on your end". I just read your post and can not think that your intent was anything but to poke at him. Here is what I found provocative,

"These pups who only THINK they know something about the subject will handicap themselves by shooting 1911s. Of course you'll beat them all easily. It won't be any contest.

I've shot against some guys who had impressive credentials and whole rooms full of trophies, but I've never seen anyone as good as you."

How else would a person take this? It appears to be a personal attack to me. Bill has a long standing challenge, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! It is not right to intentionally start crap then back down time and time again. Christ your begining to act like Dean. I have supported you and this is the way I am repaid. Thanks.

Rifle Post: What size Decelerator pad do I need to order for my Stealth. I will probably need to remove 3/8" off the stock.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:59:37 (ZULU)

Switch barrels-the screw in barrel on the Browning MG's was primarily for headspace adjustment. There used to be considerable variation in base of case to datum line on shoulder variation in ammunition lots. It was felt to be desirable to be able to adjust the gun for any deficiencies in ammunition and normal wear. [I've got part of a lot of 1970's vintage FN '06 with this problem. It was sold for scrap and was supposed to have been pulled for components. BUT SOME GREEDY SOB SOLD IT AS AMMUNITION! Keep this in mind when you buy surplus ammo.]

The setups with the locking lug abutments in the barrel pose possible headspace problems unless a separate bolt/bolt head is supplied for each barrel or the spare barrels are chambered to produce acceptable results for THAT bolt. Like to see how Sauer does theirs. Maybe real tight QC on bolt face to rear lug dimension?

Knife Country- the fast time for the 21 foot footrace in one advanced class I went to was 0.87 seconds by a 47 year old WM Deputy from Detroit. Average time for the class was 1.38 seconds. Back when I was a Range Instructor I used a PACT timer and the average time range for an officer to react to a shoot signal they KNEW was coming and fire his/her first round was 1.5-1.75 seconds. I'm sure there are those for whom the laws of time and motion stand still, but for the rest of us, have an alternate plan to stand and shoot.

Personally, if the knife is in their hand, MY sidearm isn't gonna be in the holster unless I've got a real gun in hand.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:06:10 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Thanks for the response. The D. is worse than Dick, that's why I go by Wiede (like Tweedy etc. etc. etc). As far as being tough goes-youv'e heard the song "A Boy Named Sue"? Actions speak louder than words and I don't have to talk shit to anyone.

Lito

Admittedly the rifle is a POS. But why do you get so emotional about it. Were you ripped off when you bought your three. The SKS is a POS too But doesn't cause name calling, chest beating, etc. It's just a stick, of which I have many too. Just 'cause I carry it to the crapper doesn't mean I'm married to it.

FatBoy, Titan

Thanks for the response. Thought it was me for a min.

Nah...couldn't be me.

Wiede (like Speedy)

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Baltimore, Getto Wars, Going home in 1 piece daily - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:20:05 (ZULU)

D. Wiede,

Mang, I hope the Dick Weed joke (LOL) doesn't stick...I'll be buying you beers forever. How 'bout Sir "John Thomas" Weed? All you Maryland dwellers out there--I get through those parts twice yearly--my whole family is stuck in that hole. Might hafta get some beers in...

I like the "comments at the range" topic. Makes me wanna take the old M21 out to a public facility again just for conversation.

One question on this CQB knife fight thing: If the antagonist is armed with a 42" cleaning rod, do I give him 24 feet instead of 21 feet? Scared hand-gunners wanna know...

I crack myself up.

I found a bag of apples in the root cellar (trees all over the farm). Mmmm. Delicious. Wife kicked my ass for eating them. Seems they were for the Thanksgiving pies....

Lito--this is stupid question day, so here it is: Will dialing a scope all the way up and leaving it there screw the turrets up? The new 3x9 tactical loopy is set up thatta way. I have visions of magazines loaded for too long--you know, spring fatigue. I know that there ain't springs involved, but I wonder about it all the same...is this in any way bad for the turrets?

I await your newspaper swat...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:24:37 (ZULU)

"Switch barrels-the screw in barrel on the Browning MG's was primarily for headspace adjustment" and for swapping barrels when you got the first sucker too hot..

The Sauer quality control is very good, and thier production line is state or the art, tollerances are minimum, and the bolt lugs and barrel lugs cam together creating a tight headspace.Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:37:20 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

I got a Pacmeyer magnum recoil pad directly from HS Precision a couple years back. It was only $10+ shipping and it has Winchester stamped in the back instead of Pacmeyer,, looks factory. It still had to be fitted.

This may save you some $$ and get a factory look.

Charles Hunt,

You make the trip home safe mang? Hope all went well, and nice to meet a fellow Rosterfarian.

FatBoy...

Steve: I was telling Brian that there was no war concerning knives from my end.

You wrote, " It appears to be a personal attack to me. Bill has a long standing challenge, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!..."

Put up what? I made no claims of being able to do a .4 sec draw to hit. That's because I CAN'T.

"It is not right to intentionally start crap then back down time and time again."

I agree. So who did that? If you say that I did, please quote chapter and verse. Be specific. You'll notice that I make no claims as to my shooting ability, and - when someone says that I'm a good shot - I ALWAYS say that I'm no better than fair. Go through the archives carefully and find something I posted to the contrary.

"Christ your begining to act like Dean."

If I did what you said, I would agree. I didn't so I don't

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:51:18 (ZULU)

'lito, incoming, n/a, Rem .22-250

Larry

(Sharon)

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:53:21 (ZULU)

Pistol Country,

about a year or so ago Bolt (I think) posted an expierence he had while he was out hunitng with a friend. They happen upon a snake on the trail and bolt drew up to shoot the snake. As he did so the things head exploded. The guy he was hunting with shot the snakes head off, from the hip, with a rifle that had no sights. As I recall, the gentleman told bolt to stop aiming and get busy shooting.

This has stuck with me, and it's what Kevin was getting at a few days back. So long as you have the tool, the skills and the will to use it,, does it really matter what you like best?

Knife Country,

In '93 our sister company C 6-502nd Inf got a new Private (PV2 Asay). He had been in Germany less than 3 months when he was attacked on an S bahn late one night with his buddy. A Turk(Kurd,, whatever) came up behind him as he sat in the seat with his buddy and cut his cheek open from the corner of his lip to the tip of his left ear. Asay pulled out a pocket Gerber, blocked the guys advance and jabbed the knife into the guys armpit as hard as he could. He couldn't pull the knife out it went in so hard.. Just as he did the the train stopped and the Turk jumped off. Asay went strait to Blanchfield and got treated, as well as called the MP's and Polizi(sp??). They found the Turk dead the next moring, about 200 yards from the train stop, bleed to death... Guess a Gerber folder was good enough that day,, but Asay wore a scar 5" long from one of those curved bladed shives them bastards carry..

So how do you guys carry these long blades? I found an M9 Bayonet to be irritating, I can't imaging a 13" long Bowie. Is it a ruck carry or do you keep it on your web gear?

FatBoy...

OK enough of this getting pissed off at each other crap.

Here it is in a nutt shell. Brogers is talking what he can do in a range game he plays. For him the Glock is faster. So be it. I beat up on him pretty good because I train not as a game. Matter of fact I really beat up on the IPSC Game boys because they have tactics that suck. We are talking different things here.; No reason for you to go anywhere. Certainly not from my perspective. I would miss you so stay you old fart.LOL

The whole thing about the 21 foot crap, is this. If someone is within 21 feet of you and suddenly attacks they will reach you before you, can identify the threat, react and move to stop it. Its adding all the varibles. Now if I have two guys stand and face each other and I yell go, one runs at the other he will get center puched by the other guy shooting him, because they both start to react at the same time. We teach guys this so, they add the step to the side as they shoot. Creates reaction time for asssault guy and gives you some advantage back.

Just because we dont agree does not mean we cant enjoy a good discussion. I hate folks that always agree with me, thats why I like LItto so much.LOL

Joe, no you need a clean patch for the rod so he canm clean your pipes as he goes by.

Undude.

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:09:48 (ZULU)

Just picked up an AR-10T and was wondering how anybody out there had set up their optics. Considering something like a Swan Sleeve, but I'd prefer to have some steel to mount by rings on (Badger). Only ones I've found so far with a taper (20 MOA) are aluminum. Anything else anybody could say about this thing from experience would be appreciated.

Hold Hard Gentlemen,

Fitz.

Fitz. <fitz308@sbcglobal.net>
IL, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:10:40 (ZULU)

Joe M & The Rest of Y'all

Use the e-mail address when you're in this God-forsaken town & I'd be glad to buy you a beer (or whatever your poison).

Joe

Don't sweat the name. After all these years with it I'm at least tough enough to withstand name calling.

Wiede

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, Where Republicans Finally Rule - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:12:56 (ZULU)

>>>>If firearms are such an attention-getter, why did we let the bed-wetters nix all the shooting teams in our schools? I can think of no better vehicle for teaching youth civil responsibility than this!<<<

If you're looking for a shooting program for young people, look no further than your County 4-H.

I was a 4-H (3) position Rifle Coach for our county for 12 years. Won the district title consistently and fielded several state level teams...and one year a Texas State High Individual. That young man is on his last leg of training before he takes on the role of fighter jock. At this point he's not sure if he'll be flying F-15s, 16s or maybe A-10 WartHogs. Am I proud? Damn right. Our program in this county is still one of the best in the area.

It was a pleasure working with these young men and women. They were always self-motivated and highly competitive. Like one kid's T-shirt said, "Second Place is First Place Loser." Losing was not an option with these young shooters.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:14:09 (ZULU)

I sometimes coach the jr smallbore league at the local American Legion Hall, quite a few Legions have them. Same with the VFW. Almost all states have a junior highpower rifle team and they recruit pretty actively as well. If the kid shows interest and a desire to shoot, ways can be found to get them to the matches, get them ammo, rifles to use etc etc. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:39:07 (ZULU)

Wiede,

B'town and surrounding areas are etched in my brain. My earliest memories are riding a tricycle in front of our brownstone just before we moved to Riverdale. That house was pushing crack last I checked...hauled ass back across the tracks asap. Beer would rock--maybe on my way overseas as beer is scarce where I may be headin'(soon...may have the orders by next week). Gotta swing through and might even have the time. I'll let ya know.

MK4,

I just "discovered" 4H--my "city" upbringing led me to think it was only cows. Mang, they do it all! I will get involved (Blake already is) when I return--it looks good for Kuwait for me for the next year. I hope your boy gets the warthog--most appreciated airframe by the ground guys (next to me in my whirlybird that is). LOL. You are proud of him; we parents are proud of you and guys like you. Thanks for volunteerin'

Gents,

What is a good sight system for an M4? I'd want a tritium style floating dot; mounted directly to the rail (handle is garbage). I am thinking something quick, two eye shooting. I played with the first generation, and they were ungodly fast and accurate to 100 yds once you got used to them. That was a million generations ago. The loopy CQB looks stout, but is it worth it? Or is there something better? This would be a E&E carbine in the cockpit--so sturdiness is a must. The damn whirlygigs vibrate worse than a lesbo's toy! There I go again, someone call the PC police before I slam another liberal pet social group.

Note: I am in my office waiting for a HQs call--bored and posting like a fool. Brian S, you'll have to get me one of those pointy hats in N.O....a fool has to be in uniform, ya know?

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:57:48 (ZULU)

Joe M,

While we are on the subject, who took the keys to the gate at the impact area? Didn't see them on their hook in S4! HeeHee!

Come on, Yote Bait! Although we have seen you and CDC disagree before, this takes the cake! If you want to blow up and leave, ONLY do it for something really big and important! Not over popgun prowess and the ticks of an old pocketwatch! Shit, we all know the Coyotes out your way can't afford a Rolex! And a few of them are unable to comment on your ability due to an early demise!

Mindset is critical. Smooth is fast. Safe prevents accidents. It is not what you see coming, but how you react once it starts. Really hard to practice that, being every possible scenerio is different.

If you are confident in what you are carrying, that is half the battle.

Stay safe!

Les

PS Oh yeah, a P220 workie for me! Bangs every time like a dinnerbell on the ponderosa!

Les Martin <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:13:45 (ZULU)

Fritz - Congrats on jooining the AR-10 fraternity. IF you are using an M4 get badger rings for the AR rifles or the Armalite mount. They Armalite mounts are very well done and come in the 30mm for tactical scopes. For all other ( Sinister Dave and myself anyways) Use the GG&G 20 MOA scout rail for the AR-10, not the std 20 moa rail. Use badger med rings. The advantage of the scout rail over the STD is that their is room at the back for the flip up rear sight if you plan on using one for back-up with the flip up front sight. The overhang in the front is just long enough for ring mounting but not to long as to get in the way. The GG&G is aircraft aluminum alloy, but I have had no trouble with mine. Get yourself tac latch and a sling and your good to go. Drop me an Email and I will tell you how to fix the mags so they feed right and other booring details.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:30:30 (ZULU)

DAN: Plan to contact you off line 'bout them big knives. Better yet, shoot me a phone number to my mail. (if you don't mind that is).

DICK WEED: Hey, I feel your pain. Been INSANE since the first grade. Kids can be so cruel. I let 'lito think he cornered the market on that moniker. Gotta a Sergeant named Blitch. he hee.

Pistols like women ... yep.

Kinda like cowboy hats too. Everybody's got their preference in color and crease. Most folks that know horses here wear black or a silverbelly (gray) in winter and a straw in summertime.

But ... no matter what it looks like, somebody says something about yer damn hat and the fight is on. Used to make you check 'em at the door at the VFW dances.

Used to dip the brim in sugar water to make 'em stiffer. Everybody takes their hat off before a fight and if you were lucky enough to get the first lick in, that brim is a wicked chop to the throat.

My ole black was red on the front edges from dancin' with them tall girls and their lipstick rubbing off when I'd accidentally bump into 'em, lookin' in their eyes and puttin' that sex spell on 'em. (It was gonna rub off one way or another anyway cuz the chicks dig me).

Seen more fights over cowboy hats than women.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:36:57 (ZULU)

Guys; I just need to fade out for a while. I've got a lot of work at the job that needs doing this December. If I get it done it will be a bigger feat than drawing in .4 seconds. I've been home with the flu and still have it and time's getting away. Personal problems have made me too sensitive I guess. Fagadaboutit! One less Geezer won't matter a bit.

Mike's about right, what I said has nothing to do with anything except a very quick snatch and shoot at very short range. From there it's just like everything else. I could send you guys a video in living color and somebody still wouldn't believe it. You know I spent most of my life around a range where if I said I was gonna do something I was right there to prove it. I guess I forgot this is the internet where everything is cyber and false. Honor or truth isn't much of a factor on here. Doubt and suspicion is the rule of the day. When I get time Dan I'll send you a video. You can record cartoons over it if you want. I have your address, back from a time I thought you were a friend of mine.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:41:08 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Just got incoming mail from your email address and it was infected with a virus, Sir. Might want to scan your files. Guess they are at it again!

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:55:48 (ZULU)

"very quick snatch and shoot at short range ?" - Okay, I'll leave that one alone. he hee.

Seriously guys, ya'll the most sensitive bunch of MEN I ever seen.

Ya'll need to quit wearing your feelings on your damn sleeves and buck up. This is the damn internet for goodness sakes. You know how that shit goes. Half the stuff never comes out like you meant it.

This ain't no tupperware party. We're talking guns and knives and kicking bad guys asses and shit and everybody's always gettin' their FEELINGS HURT ?

So and so hurt my feelings on the internet (rubbing my eyes). I'm taking my ball and going home. Sounds pretty stupid, huh ? Sheesh.

Damn fellas ... wtf ?

BOBBY WHITTINGTON: Enjoyed talking with you today. Take care, sir.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:12:47 (ZULU)

>>>>I hope your boy gets the warthog--most appreciated airframe by the ground guys (next to me in my whirlybird that is). LOL. You are proud of him; we parents are proud of you and guys like you. Thanks for volunteerin'<<<<<

Thanks for the kind words but it was my joy and privilege to help these fine young people...and quite frankly I fed on their enthusiasm. They made my job that much easier. What was really hard was having to make the cut for the team especially when it was VERY close. I had many a kid to "tear-up" after telling him or her the bad news. But that's the way it was...and still is.

It's always a thrill to see one of them years later and to be told how much the rifle program meant to them. Can't put a price on that.

As for the fighter jock (to be)....he's WISHING for the Warthog. The idea of carrying all of that ordnance sort of does something for him...if you know what I mean ;)))

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:28:27 (ZULU)

Big knife carry: Letting the things flop down on your leg is a no-go. The classic way to carry a Bowie is with a scabbard that only covers the blade. There's a little stud that protrudes from it about 1/2" below the guard. You drop that inside your belt. A good Bowie has a drop blade kind of like a Kukri. If a right hander holds a good right hand Bowie point up with the edge away from him, he'll see that the handle curves to the left. That makes the knife conform to his body. Believe it or not, you can toss a windbreaker or dress jacket over it and it's not hard to conceal.

That's no bueno for s**t for the field. When you are coming down a rock slide at 2:00 A.M. the LAST thing you need is an unscheduled appendectomy. A good Bowie will give you one QUICK, QUICK!

The Cutlery Shop used to make Kydex scabbards that served the purpose well. I don't know if they still do.

If you go with something without a guard, like an Arkansas Camp Knife, there is something I heard called a "mountain man" scabbard. BK&T sells an Arkansas Camp Knife that was designed by Jerry Fisk that uses one. Brad Pitt used a classic design of that sheath in some forgetable movie that also starred Anthony Hopkins. I still haven't figured out how he got a Bowie into the thing. Jerry Fisk can line you out on all of this stuff. He's a Hell of a nice guy and a fantastic blade-smith.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:30:17 (ZULU)

Brian,

Same here, and like I said, if I can help you in anyway, just holler, and if you find yourself in this neck of the woods, please stop by and visit.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:53:51 (ZULU)

Long post, here we go.

Marc, you owe Pat an appology for your rudeness and arrogance. He's no slouch, and on my limited knowledge of Pat, I'd bet on him over you in a heartbeat. I have my reasons. Play nice, the elders here are respected for a reason. That's both a hint and a jab at Pat LOL.

Well, I just can’t stand to see a good man kept down.

Mike, you and I have been friends for quite some time, and I hope that nothing I say now will change that. I’m completely sincere in that statement. I’ll even admit that the majority of our disagreements aren’t really that as much as me jabbing at you just out of fun, because I know you’re good for the laughs, and that’s going both ways.

I’ll take up the colors for poor fallen Bill Rogers, and the next time we meet, I’ll handle his end of that situation. From the holster, multiple hits, whatever you want. Just make it realistic, like I know that you would anyway. I doubt that I’ll teach you anything, but maybe I’ll be able to demonstrate what Bill was talking about with the mechanical advantage. On the trigger reset, that distance is variable. You can change it to what you want it to be, down to dang-that’s-short. The major difference is that it doesn’t take lots of money to pull that stunt off. Now, I’m not saying that thing is perfection out of the box, I’m just saying that getting it there is a much more cost effective solution. We all agree though, those top three (or seventeen, whatever) pistols are about par, it's the operator and practice that makes the difference.

Bill, your drill on the target, from the holster, first round hit. I haven’t measured to compare, but I’ve done extremely similar drills at very comparable distances, both closer and farther. My reaction, draw, and first round times range between (I edited this section after reading CDC's post. From what he wrote, it would sound like I was a liar. Guess it's better seen than printed) seconds, depending on range. I will admit though, I’m not an advanced pistolero. At 9 feet, the advanced pistoleros that I run with are firing while I’m drawing, and they do it with a one-hand hold. When I asked why they transitioned that way, I was told that small distances need small times. Although I can’t mimic them completely, I do try on occasion. On being able to rotate the cylinder and not fire the round, at first I was going to poke at you and say that if you went to a Smith, you wouldn’t have that problem. Just poking fun though, I know you can do that with a Smith, but with an improper Colt, it does that when you don’t want it to. By the way, on the Colts, you can have them changed slightly to keep the stacking monster away, giving an extrordinarily smooth and clean break with the same weight all the way through the travel. All it takes is a little time and a little cash, like everything else. I can explain how they do that, if anyone is interested, but I doubt they are.

TorF, keep preaching the faith brother, keep preaching the faith. Someone out there will hear it, and take heed. Maybe. If not, at least you did your part.

Mr. Bolt, I've got a question for you, because I figure it's right up your alley. No, nothing about ebay woodland camo bikinis LOL. Since you work on reels, and I'm assuming they're aluminium, what you use to strip the old grease out of them without disturbing the paint or anodizing? I'd hate to ruin the finish I've got doing something stupid, but Hoppes #9 hasn't made a dent in this old stuff.

And now for my stupid question for the semester, professors. I know that Badger Ord makes some great bottom metal. Same for Ross, and some others I've caught. My question, and sorry if this smacks of heressy, is WHY? I'm not questioning why bottom metal should be steel instead of aluminium, or hardened instead of thin. I'm asking why there should be any bottom metal at all. Other than a solid steel, wide trigger guard that is. Why not have a blind mag? With all these nifty turnbolts out there, all using bottom metal, I have to question what the reasoning is, and why I haven't been properly educated by you slackers prior to this. Is it nothing more than giving the action something solid as one piece to clamp the stock into? Hard to believe that an ADL is less rugged than a BDL, but that flies in the face of conventional wisdom. So educate me! LOL

Joe Mahon, you're still one of the funniest on here, hope things keep getting better for you, say, for the next 80 years. If you just get better looking long enough, you'll be like Brian and myself. Chicks dig us. On the spring fatigue, theoretically, it's a nonissue. Springs are supposed to stay compressed, indefinately, if correctly made, and not lose tension. In the real world, we have temperature extremes, stuff that eats at the spring itself, shocks, etc. Most of how a spring reacts to being compressed for long times has to do with how much it costs to produce. Sad, but true. Good stuff costs. Lesbo toys! HA! Let me get the popcorn. On the hats though, the chicks dig the Stevie Ray Vaughn look LOL.

And Bill Rogers, you know you ain't leaving any time soon. Remember that, or I'll have to dress you up in Steve's blue dress and pumps prior to administering an over-the-knee spanking LOL

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 04:10:07 (ZULU)

Ok Guys,

I appologize to Pat for my impatience, I get very tired of explaining that I said meters in the first post,not yards and that was the point of the comment!

Marc

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 07:42:55 (ZULU)

I love working on the computer at 3:00 AM... I'm listening to "Art Bell" on the radio, and some guy is going on about area 51, aliens (NOT from Mexico ;), and underground cities beneath the Sahara Desert... you gotta love this country!! Only in America! ;))))))))))))))))

Hey 'yote Bate...

Don't you dare leave. I don't want to be the only endangered species "Fossel" on this site (Rick is only beginning to catch up)... hell, you're the only guy I know that loves the .41!!

Sharon...

Got your e-mail... your lipstick clashes with your purse ;))

Dick Weed...

I ain't emotional about... well maybe a bit. That's cuz I remember when Remington used to make a really fine rifle. But it ain't just the PSS... it's Remington M700 quality all together. I just bought a M700 light walkin' varmint rifle, and the list of stuff wrong with it filled a full page, and I will take MAJOR work to get it to the point that it should be when it came out of the box!! That Sucks... and what about the guy that can't do the work?? He eats the big weenie, cus Rem WON'T make it better!

Joe M...

Scope question? NO! No worries Mate!

Which Riverdale you talkin' about... north of NYC??

Bobby Whittington...

I didn't send you no "Disease" (you got it on leave, from that woman! ;))

This current virus doesn't get generated at the the senders address, it comes from somewhere else. I had this computer off line (and I MEAN "OFF", like taken apart) for 8 weeks, and guys were saying that they were getting infected mail from me. Plus, this machine has been back on line for about 2 weeks, and is squeekie CLEAN!

Maybe Ken can explain it... but I do know that if I get a virus sent to me from one of you guys, you didn't send it.

Warthogs ROCK!! My favorite (current operational) plane! A6's are my second favorite :))

Mark...

I can Garri-damn-tee you that Pat knows the difference between yards and meters. He knows a bit more than that too. In a match between you and him... out to 1300 yards (OR meters), I know where I'd put my money. But he's dog ugly! HA!

It's 16 degrees here, and I'm going back to bed. Winter SUCKS!! :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 08:32:40 (ZULU)

Changable barrels?

Anyone tried the Savage system yet? They're selling wrenches and headspace gauges and even bolt heads to change boltface size.

Brodgers,

Hang around man, some of us respect you for who you are not so much what you can or cannot do.

I received a flyer from Crimson Trace yesterday. The new NIJ numbers, whether one believes them or not, indicate 80% of all conflicts occur in low or failing light. The second "fact", their term not mine, is the all to common "7 yard" reference. Most incidents are still occuring this close. The 3rd feature is almost all confrontations involve the movement of victim or attacker or Both. Even among veteran LE there are 6 or 7 things which will probably occur... target fixation, limited near vision acuity, narrowed field of vision, auditory exclusion, time will slow down, "spray and pray" reflex MAY develop and vaious sympathetic nervous system reactions. I was told by a learned individual once that in almost every gunfight one of the shooters will be shot in the hand that is holding the weapon. So take your sights off and go shoot rats in the dump at night with a streetlamp in your eyes. Obviously, Crimson Trace is trying to make a point for their product, but the "facts" are there. The faster you produce and accurately discharge your weapon the more likely you are to survive long enough to answer the civil suit that is sure to follow.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 10:41:12 (ZULU)

By the way....

According to NDIA magazine, Sen. John McCain R.AZ. missed the vote on the $355 billion defense spending bill. Where was he? In NYC preparing to host Saturday Night Live. For the record, he was opposed.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 11:06:29 (ZULU)

On the blade thread....

If you regularly tote a sidearm concealed {IWB holster} with spare ammo {mag pouch, speedloader case, 2x2 pouch??} and stuff a Bowie in your pants also, doesn't it get a bit crowded in your waist band, not to mention heavy???

Anyone ever tote a boot knife?? I wear packers a lot and, when I carry it, find my old Randall rides quite nicely in the right boot..Not lightning quick to get to but it's there if needed.

Is that a Bowie knife in your pants or are you just glad to see me??

Andrew T...Get an 870..A SPAS! can you say heavy??

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 12:59:24 (ZULU)

Markwell: You forgot the Surefire light and cell phone.

I carry a little $35 folder in my right front pocket. The big knives stay home.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 13:40:40 (ZULU)

Damn guys...Lets all step back and take a deep breath here!! Bill & CD you know how what is written can be taken one way when your meaning something else. You two both are very knowlegable in your areas of shooting and I respect you both so lets shake hands and make up.

When I was on the Patrol teaching defensive tactics we did a lot of training on the 21' rule and you "Will" get cut if your rushed by a man with a knife. Its damn hard to get a gun out when you busy trying to keep from getting cut.

We put over a 100 troopers through the training and we cut them all. I am not saying there aren't guys out there who can't draw and put three between your eyes before you get to them but if your not expecting it and they come after you the "Average" duck is going to get cut, period!!!

Marc..

No need to appoligize, when I reread my post of "Bully for you" that sure could have been taken as a smart ass remark and was not ment that way, only in jest. Your definatly intitled to your opinion as I am mine. I base my arguments on actual shooting of both calibers. I am on my 3rd 308 barrel and on my 3rd 260 barrel.

If you went back through the archives (When I first went to the 260) I used to joke about how much better my wind calls had gotten and the reason was I could flat tell a difference in my shooting because of less margin of error due to the better BC. For me wind is the big thing. I can laze the exact range but the wind eats your shorts out here.

You may not believe this but I could use the same data for the 260 as I did for my 300WM with the 190s at 2800 or 2900fps. I forget just off the top of my head which it was. When I went to the 6.5x284 I noticed a difference over the 260 so you can see why I am a die hard 6.5 fan.

I am a civilian and I have a choice of what I want to shoot and at my age I need all the advantange I can get!!!! This is why I choose to go with the higher BCs of the 6MMs,6.5s,7MMs. They don't beat you up as bad and they shoot flatter with less wind drift. I think the military is missing the boat but thats way above my pay grade.(HA) Enough on this:):).

Chris..

Nope still going to build one, one of these days!! I am looking for an action as we speak(HA).

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 13:41:01 (ZULU)

CDC..The light, yeh, forgot that...Cell phones do not work here, no need to tote one.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 13:56:41 (ZULU)

Sleet here this morning and I'm still inside. What am I gonna do anyway?

Jeager; your friends are exactly correct and that's what this is all about. Very well put, short distances are served with short times. Those who attend these 6 week training seminars and emerge as steely eyed gunfighters are taught to shoot the same way at any range and that works for beginning students and officers. There's really nothing wrong with it if you have the time. This was never about what "I" can do with a pistol but what "anyone" can do. Never did I even mention a time until I was taunted and if there's anyone out there that doesn't believe it hwy 56 Runs right in front of the Gun Range out there. BUt I'm not drivin 1500 miles to show you. I had a video here for 6 months now that nobody's challenged. So brothers, if you think it's bullshit then get out your own Camera cause if you were here I'd cure you in short order. And I'm not mailin a copy to everyone that's curious. We've been through it all before and this is the end of it. YOu wanna use that 100 year old weapon to protect your life it's your decision. I've been there and done it and progressed but I'm the old fart remember! I appreciate the beauty of history of that old gun much more than you realize. It's a thing of art and beauty, like the Bowie I sent to Brian by Jpg. Read my lips, I love the damn things. But for the purposes of what I been trying to get through here it has problems for quick deployment in desperate situations that the Glock and similar pistols now have overcome. What I was trying to do was teach something that I learned after thousands of practice shots and attempts to gain some time. I've sent it to a few. Some got it and some haven't yet. But I'll send it to any SC reader but I'm not going to post it.

Yes, I can get discouraged, and I can just say screw it and walk off after so many months of just begging enough respect to have someone listen without assuming I have nothing to offer. But If this is free for all junction here, then so be it. I've answered ever inquiry that's ever been asked of me, helped every beginner, argued every point I disagreed with since 1996. IF I didn't know anything then, I should know something now cause I've gotten a lot from all of you.

Jaeger; your absolutely right, I do use the Smith but not the Colt. That may have been conscrewed wrong in that post. But I wore out 2 Pythons trying to shoot them as well as I did the Smith's. The model 19 turned out to be my favorite. And by God yes, I can rotate that cylinder and stop it just before I fire and if the distance is close or long I can shoot the damn thing just as accurate as I can by pulling back the hammer and that ain't no brag it's just plain fact.

And if you jokers went to Gunsite or Flakvillage or any other damn place during your summer vacation you better be able to shoot damn fast and damn straight if you wanna make a fool out of me. And my Ass is always here for the kickin with pistol, rifle, knife or Bow. Just so's you'll know.

I get frustrated on here cause it's like this. If we were face to face this BS wouldn't be happening or somebody would be steppin back. Thank you all for listening.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 14:54:53 (ZULU)

Jag., dude of course we are friends. I love you like a yound Lab Puppy. Falling all over yourself. I can learn from anyone, but man you carry a 9mm and think you have the sh...LOL I need to knock your head with a rock next time we meet, or just have a few brews.LMAO

Will that M25 still hold sub moa?

Bill stick around.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 15:29:34 (ZULU)

Cat Shooter,

Don't talk 'bout area 51! I work for NASA and I know that they are very sensitive 'bout it not existing.

Wooeee, what a cat fight! big guns, little guns, knife fights, OK corral shoot outs, meters & feet, 21 feet, and then my chance to join in. --- Brian K. I love them cowboy hats! Got a couple myself. Ya' know why cowboys turn up the sides of their hats?--- So they can set three across in a pickup.

Merry Christmas ya all.

Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <grimm@atlantic.net>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 15:38:15 (ZULU)

I have made no claims. Bill did and I'll take a look.

Bill: If you can draw to hit from a controlled position in .4 sec, that beats Plaxco, Leatham and co by about .25 sec. That's not an insult. It's a statement of fact. Giving you a generous .06 each for each of your follow up shots, that gives you a Mozambique before any master class shooter I have ever seen is even on target.

That sounds improbable to me, but I'll check it out. Show me proof and I'll be delighted to apologise and will appreciate a lesson.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 15:50:26 (ZULU)

Where is all this fighting people keep posting about... all I see is a bunch of "alpha" males politely discussing points of view....at least that's the way it goes round my parts.... seems to me I have heard about New Yorkers being rude, but I'm from Jersey.

Undude...

Gotcha on the whole surprise thing... the 21' rule only applies if I'm not paying attention to my surroundings. I'll make sure I don't do that.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:10:00 (ZULU)

Master Bowcher,

Sir, Which ruck is the prefered short mission ruck that Gunny Hathcock described, Australian or Austrian. CheaperNDirt has the Austrian version I believe for $39.95. Original issue with a small pack version. Thanks,

Also, just got my 6.5x20x50AO back from Premier with the Genll reticle and M1 turrets installed. Excellent qualty and workmanship. A small white dot now marks the 10x spot for ranging. Can I use 20x and cut the formula in half or divide by 2 so to speak?

John

edited to plug Premier.

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:25:47 (ZULU)

CDC; you got a deal, but it'll be a few days before this weather clears. I believe I said a kill zone or lethal hit on a 9'distance target and now you tell me where should my hands be when the clock starts. I just want to be sure we're not talking apples and oranges. YOu will time it yourself on slow motion tape. It won't be an AVII or anything like that cause my Geeks could make that stuff do anything. Just pure VHS and you'll have to slow it down.

I'm talkin from when my hands start to move till the shot goes down. You time it yourself.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:30:36 (ZULU)

John,

Don't mean to piss in your cornflakes,, but if you waited a few weeks you could have gotten the gen II in the first focal plane ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:42:11 (ZULU)

Dan;

By the way, I deleted it I guess but I think I said you'd have to do .4 to beat me. But I'll see what I can do. This 1 second tape draw shoot and reholster looks like about .450 to .475 but it's inside with blanks and the one you get won't probably have the timing in the back ground cause there's no power out there but if we're gonna bury the hatchet on this business and be friends when it's over I'll shoot you one you won't forget.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:49:01 (ZULU)

Jerry Lee...

>"Don't talk 'bout area 51! I work for NASA and I know that they are very sensitive 'bout it not existing."<

It's TOoooooooo late! We already gots one of our peoples IN the place, and his hide is soooooooo good, they can't find him ;)))

Gotta go for a while... I found a ham radio transceiver (Kenwood 130-V) that I have been looking for since it went out of production, and I found one "Brand stinkin' new", in the box w/papers, that had been catchin' dust with a radio collector almost 20 years... new "STUFF" makes life more betterer :)))))))))

Hey waitress... I'll take another order of mac & cheese to go! :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:55:52 (ZULU)

Joe M.

I have a case of propwash left over at the flightschool, if you need it. It's a different color from the rotorwash but works the same. :]]

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:58:45 (ZULU)

John,

20x ranging? Probably not, but maybe. Remember a while back when "calibrating techniques" for variables was discussed here? Same thing will most likely apply. If your scope maxes out at say 19.1x magnification--you'll have error; and that Gen II reticle gives you excellent mil readings--so that would be bad. Go through the archives, and find the posts on how to calibrate the dots. Set it up and get a measurement at 20x, and see if your scope is "on." It may be on off the dial mark slightly--just make another reference dot. If it tracks, you can use your math to range.

Lito, feel free to correct my interpretation of once-covered stuff.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:59:30 (ZULU)

Chris,

That is the STORY of my life in one sentence. AAAAGGGHHHHHH!! SHIT!

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:01:36 (ZULU)

Joe M.

When I search for it, which argument title do I put in the search. I can't remember what we were argueing (sp) about back then. :)))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:08:03 (ZULU)

Bill, incoming email, no attatchments.

Sean <nailer@mackbc.com>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada, eh - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:33:54 (ZULU)

Bill-- I was quite surprised, no shocked, by your comment about "months of just begging [for] enough respect.... Although I have been reading the roster for about three years I am a vrey infrequent poster. In all that time I have probably read hundreds upon hundreds of your posts and I can unflinchingly say that there is not another poster that I respect more. Why? Because there is something about the tone and tenor of your comments that always says you are a shooter's shooter. Thats not to say that I look at the rest of you dogs as posers - clearly a lot of good stuff comes out on this board and the chicks dig some of you and that has to count for something. Stick around Bill- You have too much to offer.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:57:30 (ZULU)

Bill: .4 from the time your hands start to move is a VERY different thing from .4 from a buzzer. You're in a two handed shooting position ready for multiple shots, right? I'd like to see ten straight of them on an unedited tape. If you could put a big clock in the background, that would let me check that our clocks kept the same time. That's basic data collection technique.

Of course that won't be the single handed "Queeks Draw." That is a trivial circus trick. Bill Jordan could do it with his Model 19 in .14. That's an interesting piece of film. Bob Munden could (occasionally) do it in .11. Eight or ten years ago I saw him try it about ten times from a "gunslinger" holster with a tricked out Peacemaker. His target was baloons that burst from his muzzle blast. His best time was .12. He successfully completed his draw six or seven times. That was all well and good, but would be of limited practical use.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:00:00 (ZULU)

Ya'll may call bullshit on this one but that's okay.

I was paired up with a Houston PD auto theft dick at an officer survival class. Both of us were decent pistol guys.

We did a mock felony stop on a car takedown.

The driver got out and started running (and I mean RUNNING, too) west, away from us and swung around to point a pistol at us as he did so.

Using Simunitions in Sig 229s, between me and the other guy, we hit the BG TEN times in the gun hand and forearm on the move. Distance was maybe 20 yards. Have never done anything like it before or since.

The class was pretty much stunned as were the instructors.

Sure lended a lot of credence to the shoot where you look theory and the fact that you always key on the gun, for me anyway.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:12:35 (ZULU)

I though simunitions hurt... ten hits in the forearm... wonder if that guy could even raise his hand to volunteer a second time.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:35:27 (ZULU)

CDC, I tried posting a simliar msg about Jordan and Munden. You must have intercepted my post and cleaned it up some. Cause for some reason it did not post. By the way Jordans time for a Qweeks Draw and shot on target with a "Go" signal was an impossible .3 seconds. At bad breath distance a fast draw and shot is what is needed. It should be practiced for when its needed. most times a two hand hold is definately preffered. But at less than 6 feet this technique should be used or you risk a gun snatch.

Well off to roll call.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:46:56 (ZULU)

Hey fellers,

All this "pistol country" talk has got me thinkin. I need much more practice on my pistolas. Since I started coming here in '97 I've learned a ton about LR etc. I can't seem to find any good pistol sites to give me as good a learnin' as I gots here, so here goes....

What's a Mozambique? And no, not the country in Africa....

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:52:14 (ZULU)

Rich S...

>"What's a Mozambique?"<

You don't want to get one for Christmas ;)))

It's a fast double tap to the torso to rattle the BG, and a fast (but aimed) shot to the head.

The reason is... the double tap to the torso (even if not fatal) will slow down and disorient the BG long enough for the aimed "coup de gras" to the head... it is a shooting pattern that was originated in "Mozambique" in the 70's.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:02:33 (ZULU)

Dan; Where did you get the idea this was a buzzer shoot with 2 hands at the ready? I named the one hand start from a "I got my hands up dude!" shot from the very beginning. This has nothing to do with 2 handed IPSC stuff which, by the way, been there done that but I ain't no Rob Latham cause I haven't spent the last 25 years shooting that disicipline and probably could never equal him anyway cause he's one fine pistolero.

I thought we might be talking different kinds of fruit here. The stuff you do and studied at Gunsite Dan, is good practical pistol and it was designed to make good shots out of people from everywhere as quick as possible and as safe as possible and nobodys running it down. It hasn't been 24 hours since I recommended to someone to go there or Thunder Ranch. What I'm talkin about is up close and uncomfortable protection for people who didn't know trouble was coming or find themselves in the middle of desperation.

You may have been conditioned to call it Circus and I really don't have a problem with what you call it. It can save your life.

It's like that double tap business. Guy goes into the 7-11 and finds 3 guys armed and dangerous robbing the place. He pulls his .45 and double taps 2 of em in fine training come to surface style. while the third perp kills him with a .32. Shit happens. Mosambique what the hell, I've heard of it Lito' thanks for splainin it to me? OH well.

This all started when I said the Glock was better suited for that quick draw or fast deployment business and we been goin down hill from there.

After the first shot goes down the 1911 comes into it's own. I'd much rather change a magazine in 1911 or aim a Bowmar than that Factory Glock site.

Steve said...

"At bad breath distance a fast draw and shot is what is needed. It should be practiced for when its needed. most times a two hand hold is definately preffered. But at less than 6 feet this technique should be used or you risk a gun snatch."

There was never more truer words spoken.

Sam Toole was a personal friend of mine, we went to Gun shows and swapped stories of old lost Gold mines and glory days gone by. His single action feats are legendery and his hands are still in celuloid as a stunt shooter. Know as fastest gun in the world back in the early 60's he was the Bob Munden of his time. He might be a circus performer to some but to me he was an artist. Sam and I shot different guns. I was a double action man and he was a single action. We understood that, I don't know why you can't make room for something that didn't come out of your Gunsite course Dan? The rules are different when you put the timer on it. Reaction times is another matter. Blow the buzzer and everyone requires time to react. It's a human body thing then. As to how fast you can drop your hand pick up a gun from a holster when the jig is up is another. Then there's the shot. Some people are faster than others.

I think if I sent you this tape you would change the rules. I don't know what it is you wanna see. I can manage a draw starting with my hands up, when I decide to start it, not someone else or some damn buzzer or the Church clock, like in the "Quick and the Dead!" , and a shot up close into a kill zone, the closer the better in about half a second. IF you've seen Jordan do a buzzer start in .3 and Latham do it in .65 why in the would you question me?

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:50:51 (ZULU)

JIMBO: Simunitions DO hurt. This guy had big red welts all over him by the end of the day.

Musta run about 20 scenarios that day.

Guy looked like Stone Cold Steve Austin, tats and all ... just laughed it off.

Had an old Sergeant here back in the day. Cajun. Was on Iwo Jima. Would let you hold your hands spread apart body width.

On YOUR first move as the GO signal, he would draw and have his pistol in your belly before you could clap your hands.

Used to win coke money from the rookies. He got mine too ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:54:05 (ZULU)

Steve: Practicing the "speed rock" will program you with two sets of reflexes. Under stress you go right to habit. If your habits are screwy, you'll screw up.

Brian: I'm sure you've seen intermediate shooters' results in simulators. They shoot more gun hands than Roy Rogers. It's pretty funny.

Rich S: Bill disagrees, but, rather than listen to a bunch of internet bullshit, I truly think that your best bet is to schedule the beginning, intermediate and advanced pistol classes at one of the top schools six months apart. Next you buy two of the pistols they recommend (which will be 1911s) and 20,000 rounds. Don't even handle the guns until you get to the basic school. Do what they say the way they say to do it. Go home and practice their drills their way for six months. Do the intermediate then do the recommended drills for six more months. Take the advanced class.

At that point you are a student. Buy the video tapes, read Enos' and Plaxco's books, then practice some more.

It takes about a year.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:54:29 (ZULU)

Rich S,

Ya know, I wuz wondering 'bout that too. I just didn't want to get sucked into the rest of the pistol wars by asking.

Lito: Thanks for clearing that term up for at least two of us!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:58:25 (ZULU)

Bill: For three guys you do a "Practical Prez." "Double tap" is an IPSC deal. Ten or twelve years ago an IPSC shooter got killed in Southern California trying to do a "Prez." The third guy got him. He had programmed bad habits.

I must have misunderstood. .5 at 9' for a "speed rock" you initiate shouldn't be any problem. It's sure not going to make modern pistol technique obsolete.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 20:05:00 (ZULU)

Rich S,

You have mail. No attachment, no virus

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 20:42:24 (ZULU)

Whoa Pie Fight City.........Heh-heh

Bill, Qwicher Whining! You're here to stay

Maybe some fancy m'puter guru can convert the qweek-draw video to an m-peg, or sumfin and we can ALL watch. I'm game for learning something new too.

FWIW - I don't walk around in "surrender" position, none of the antiquated handgun range quals we utilize at work have surrender drills, nor am I going to "go there" on the street.

Andy's Dad was right about "The Hit" episode on Miami Vice - too kewl for the combat handgunners of the times - but MAKE BELIEVE tee-vee stuff.

Most knowledgeable folks now would shoot'em as soon as they saw the "claw" if not FAR quicker considering the pre-existing violence of the scenario.

My limited experiences following a bit of "live lab" testing begining back in 1983-84 with the 7 yard closure MOVING OPPONENT drill are:

Hands on the jelly donut you die!

Hand on the sidearm, (depending on the holster retention level and individual skill) 70-30% you get a shot off, maybe two if yer Qweek, no guarantee of solid hits.

Ready position 50-50% two hits on a MOVING hostile target

Largest controlling "variables" - Mindest, and the experience/ skill of defender & opponent. I've had experieced Sniper Foo folks try dive rolls to close on me, mad rushes, double angular attacks, conventional knife grip, reverse knife grip, double blade attacks etc. etc.

On good days I came out cut but ahead, other average days I came out looking like I had slipped and fell through a wood chipper. :-)

Markwell,

a Randall Eh, kewl...... The whole thingee started about using Hungarian Sabre Techs weeth a leetle big knife..... HONEST! As little as I am I can barely carry a nail clipper w/o falling over from the extra weight.

MOZAMBIQUE Drill - Markwell/CDC - Wasn't that an AK equipped badguy who caught two in chest from a 9mm BHP ( in frag vest or mag pouch), the defender observed from high ready over sights, and then placed one in CNS? I cain't remember

(In)Sain - Don't you just hate it when that happens (extreme qweek draw w/o any indicators).

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
CCCCCCOLD CITY, BY-GAWD, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 20:49:41 (ZULU)

CDC',

I'd absolutely LOVE to go and git the pistol edjumacation you recommended. Only one small problem....money. Hmmmmm, maybe I can wash their dishes of somefin' ;)))))

Later,

Rich

RichS <RS1441@aol.com>
MD, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:06:15 (ZULU)

How realistic is it to assume a knife attack will present itself openly from 20 feet? So why train that way? Guy at work got cut across the gut and was still trying to figure how he ended up holding his intestines in his hands after the cutter had already put the knife away. Seems to me one has to be aware enough of who enters his space in certain circumstances to prevail in something like a knife attack, gunslinger or not. So the mindset is critical. Seems like comparing LE tactics to concealed carry civilian tactics disallows the difference between the two.Would not the cop face a greater threat of untelegraphed attack than the concealed carry civilian?....."I saw his gun and knew what I had to do to gain the upper hand"....Civilians aint gotta worry about dropping their piece while rappeling either;))....While refined tactics are desired in both cases, I would think they vary with the different situations encountered by LE and civilians......Threat assesment trumps speed for the civilian....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:12:41 (ZULU)

Gents,

Knife Fighting: GySgt Claude Ricketts use to tell us that you needed to be "prepared to get a five inch cut to give a ten inch one". Anyone who pooh-pooh's knives, in close, is out of their mind.

Me? I'm a 12 GA guy...at point blank range, of course.

Carried a Ka-Bar my whole career. Never found it lacking.

Day off...gonna spend time with "she who must be obeyed"...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:22:23 (ZULU)

CDC; I have no problem with your instructions to the shooter. If I understand the last one. "It takes about a year/" If that means it takes about a year to get through all that and get your good habits established I would concur completely. There's no reason not to use a 1911 in a learning enviorment where that's all they teach. I'd hate to show up with something else and complicate their job.

I didn't do that because all these guys weren't around writing books in 1948 when I started shooting pistols. There was some Circus Performers like Ed McGivern, Elmer Keith, Charles Askins and some other "clowns" (I wish Jordan could hear you call his stuff circus performance). BUt they didn't have schools. That Jordan guy was probably around too. But I think he was out riding the Rio Grande about then.

I don't guess I know what a speed rock is for sure. You guys do read a lot. All I know is I draw the same way everytime and pick up the second hand when the range or difficulty calls for it. IF you want to follow the shooting games out there it's best to study the shooters that are winning.

Dan; that was the California indicident I was describing.

I don't shoot pistols from habit or at least I like to think that I don't. But the advice about not handling the piece before you get to Gunsite will save you some embarrasment. Cause you'll do something they don't approve of and they'll tell you about it. I'd probably drive em crazy. Already have for that matter.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:29:36 (ZULU)

Mark wrote,

"Civilians aint gotta worry about dropping their piece while rappeling either"

That all depends on the civilian. ;-) Andy's request on his tenth birthday was for 120' of Goldline and some better 'biners. He got 'em.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:35:54 (ZULU)

Rod Hansen; you get a special thanks for your kind words. And all the rest who support all of us here making fools of ourselves at times with things we hold to be truths. Sometimes events off screen affect what goes on here and my apology for that. But sometimes it just gets heavy and old men may think about giving up. Older I get the harder it is to have the will to fight. Guess that's why they don't let old Geezers in the forces.

PeteR; you may need a prop to keep me going. Just prop me up by bunker but let me watch OK?

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:38:18 (ZULU)

PeteR: I've heard the "Mozambique" story but just can't remember it.

Bill: Basic students show up with a variety of handguns. Glocks are among them. Advanced students usually show up with 1911s. There are a few Sigs, S&W Revolvers and such. I haven't got a large enough sample to know, but I didn't see any Glocks at all.

You wrote; "Cause you'll do something they don't approve of and they'll tell you about it."

Absolutely right. They have the manipulation drill all worked out and IT WORKS. They want to burn it into the student's brain so the student will use it automatically, under all conditions. That frees the student to think about his situation rather than gun manipulation. As Mike said, under stress a person will do what they are used to doing. In "No Second Place Winner", Bill Jordan writes of a man who finished a gunfight only to find his shirt pocket full of brass. He was a reloader and he reverted to habit. Bad habit is the enemy. It seems like the guys who say "I've been doing this for 40 years" have to be told 10,000 GODDAMNED TIMES TO GET THEIR GODDAMNED FINGER OFF THE GODDAMNED TRIGGER.

"Speed Rock" is one of the names for the technique Bill Jordan, Rex Applegate and the guys you mention all use(d).

Use what you want.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:54:13 (ZULU)

My brother is a northern California bay area cop. He graduated from the academy and was issued a Smith and Wesson .40, then a Glock .40 when the department changed over. We talked, and because he had the option of carrying a .45 Sig 220 I gave him mine. As part of his own continuing education he took a class from Bennie Coolie.

One night answering a domestic shortly before end of shift the complainant and his teenage daughter jumped on my brother's Field Training Officer's back, trying to take his gun. My brother tried calling for backup, but his radio's battery was dead. He took a frying pan to the side of the head from the complainant's drunk wife (object of the disturbance call), fell in soapy water on the kitchen floor from her trying to take his gun, and lost his glasses. She then reached into the sink for a very large knife and started to attack. Bang, 230-grain Hydra-Shok, de-cock, scan. One shot, one-kill, knife-fight over. Internal Affairs, seeing his training certificate and the Program of Instruction bloc for response to the 7-yard knife-fight cleared him as a good shoot. True story.

==========

Excellent $12.95 investment is "With Winning in Mind -- The Mental Management System" by Olympic and two-time World Champion Lanny Bassham. "From Seven Strategies of the Mentally Tough":

Number Three: "Find out what the best people in your sport or business are doing, and duplicate what they do.

"Take a good look at what the best people in sport do in training, determine how they look, figure out how they think. Then you train, think, and look just like them.

If your way of performing is unique -- no one else in the world performs like you -- and you're world champion, that's called innovative. But if you look different from everyone else in the world and you're not the world champion, that's called naive. Being different can be innovative or devastating, depending on whther or not you win.

A safer, saner approach is to match the existing standards in the sport by duplicating what the best shooters do. Then, you can increase the standard.

Find out what the top people in the world are thinking, planning, and testing. I guarantee you the top one percent in the world are not thinking like the other 99 percent.

If you think and train like most people, you'll perform like most people. If that's OK with you, that's fine. If you don't mind being in the middle of the pack, that's OK. But if you want to break out and win and succeed, you are going to think differently than the mainstream does.

How do you find out what the champions are doing? Ask them. Most people don't because they're afraid of bothering them People wonder if the good performers will talk to them. Well, the good shooters darn well won't talk to you if you don't ask them. You've got to go out of your way to meet the champions. The national chmpionships are a great place to meet the champions. But sometimes you have to be willing to go to the places where these people train.

It is easier than you think to learn how a champion prepares. If you really want to know something, take a champion to dinner. Buy a five dollar hamburger and see if you can get a million dollars worth of information out of that. Most national champions I know are very willing to share their knowledge with other people.

Number Four: Train Hard, Compete Easy

The mentally tough work hard in training, much harder than their competition. Training five or more hours a day five days a week is not uncommon among Olympians. They find more efficient ways to train. They focus on maximizing their equipment advantage, and if there are any technical advances out there, they find them.

It might surprise you that I designed the stock on the rifle I used to win the Olympics. I designed about 50 bad stocks before I made a good one. I can't tell how many pieces of wood I bought. I was looking for an edge, and I knew the stock I built, which I won the World Championships with in 1974, would give me an edge in 1976.

I took it to Dieter Anschutz, owner of the famous Anschutz company, and showed him some plans for my stock. Dieter is one of the great men of shooting and a great friend of mine, but he told me, "Lanny, Lanny, Lanny. You are the master shooter. I am the master gun-builder. I won't tell you how to shoot, and you don't tell me how to make guns." That was the end of that discussion.

So, I went to Walther, his major competitor. The Walther had a good trigger and an accurate barreled action, but it also had a pretty poorly designed stock for my style of shooting. I took leave from the Army, bought a plane ticket, and went in to see Mr. Peter Hoffman of Karl Walther GmBh.

At that time I was a silver medalist, so I got their attention.

Engineers in white coats came in, and I proudly showed them my plans for the stock. I asked them, "Do you think you can make this?" They took some measurements, and then they left. Hoffman told me to go back to my hotel, but that we would have dinner that night, and for me to plan to come back the next day. I asked him, "Do you think they can make that design?" He said he wasn't sure, but we would check tomorrow.

The next day, I returned to the factory, and waiting for me were two complete rifles. Totally finished. They had stayed up all night long making them. The rifles were exact replicas of my plans. I went home with those two rifles, and I used them in 1976 to win the gold medal and in 1978 to win the World Championships. It gave me an edge. Dieter Anschutz has never really gotten over turning me down. That decision surely cost him some sales to Walther.

You don't have to be a stock designer or anything like that to get an edge. But you need to find an edge. The edge I found was not so much the stock design, but the attitude I was willing to go the extra mile. I was willing to do things my competition wasn't willing to do. Outwork your competition. Be more effective in your profession or sport. Go the extra mile.

Then, when you get in a match, try hard enough to shoot well, but not one percent more. More medals are lost by good shooters trying too hard in a competition than by any other factor.

Nine out of ten of the people that come to me and take the Mental Management Seminars have the common problem of trying too hard in competition. We know where this attitutde comes from. We're taught all our lives that the harder we try, the better we'll do in competition. You can try too hard and have your score go down.

There's a level of effort expended which gives you the best performance; it is similar to the amount of effort you put out when you have a really good practice day. It's easy to shoot when you're shooting well. Don't over-try in competition. Try just the right amount."

An excellent investment and a very quick read.

OK, Marc, I've fired de-linked M80 7.62mm Ball out of an M24 at 55-gallon drums to 1,000 measured METERs, at Yuma, Arizona, the Whig Mountain Complex at Dugway Proving Grounds, Utah (with high oblique down angle), and in Western Australia. So what? I'd still rather have had a flat shooting, mild-recoiling rifle that bucks wind better.

Sinister Dave <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
Las Vegas, Nevada, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:01:04 (ZULU)

I thought I would interject a little humor into this pistol thing, I Have a Ruger P89, there I said it! I OWN A RUGER! The poor thing has been used and abused but has never failed, jamed, misfired, or let me down in any way. I had a Sig, but sold it, didn't like the way it fit my hand. I'm not into the quick draw thing but for off hand practice I take the old Ruger out and shoot jackrabits with it. Great practice on moving targets that start at random locations, never run in a straight line and make the most God awful noise if you hit them in the ass with a 124gr hollowpoint.

Ran out of time while visiting the inlaws, no pig hunting for a few more months, but I still have some chops in the freezer from last time.

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
NE , Ca, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:01:57 (ZULU)

Mo' Mozambique...

Contrary to the common rumor, it didn't develop because of one BG with an AK (or flak vest)... the local native militia were very much like those "technicals" in Samolia. They chewed some root or leaf that had a narcotic in it. They were very hard to drop because of the lack of pain, and deadened nerve response. So if you went into a village, and took one shot at the BG, you could BET on one or more coming back to you, even if you had a solid hit. The Mozambique technique was developed to rattle and confuse the BG for just a few seconds, so you could stop him for sure.

However... it is NOT the recomended approach when facing several BGs here state side, cuz you will loose time on the first BG, and the others may run... but they may shoot you while your messing with the first guy, doing the three shot dance.

With knife fights at 21 feet... if you come up against one of those street Bozos that pull their knife and do the "I'm gonna cut you, mothafucka", then you got it made, cuz he is just street trash, and you can drop him while he's running his mouth... but if he knows anything about knife fighting, you won't see the knife 21 feet away... you'll see it just before it cuts you.

And that's a very badd thing (says Martha Stewart)!!

On learning gun fightin' (IPSC style!!)

A young gun fighter arrives at the pearly gates, and meets Saint PeteR, and Saint PeteR holds him up for a minute...

"Young man - you have died and I must judge you to see if you are worthy of entrance. But I see from my book that you have lived a sinful life and have never done any good deed to help anyone else!!

Have you done anything to help another person, that might aid your case?"

The young man replies: "Saint Peter - Wait - this might be it. I was driving down the road after finishing Fatal Force VI at ThunderGun Farm. I saw a young lady whose car had stalled on the road. She was surrounded by a vile gang of evil bikers.

They were taunting her and pawing at her. I screeched to a stop. I approached using a dominant Weaver stance and command - no, I yelled... "You dirty, slime sucking bunch of faggots... Don't move... get away from her! Don't make me take action! You'll be very sorry!"

At the same time, I started to clear my Chip McKimber "Custom" 1911 M3000 with Tabasco Red Dot sights and stocked with Black Avenger super-comp grips, and loaded with 300gr Super Frangible JWSCHPS's "steel kyllers" from my Malt Gallop Lightning Wear comp VIII Holster..."

St. Peter interrupted: "I'm sorry, but there's no record of this good deed in my book... When did this happen?"

"About three minutes ago!"

'yote Bate...

I think your scenerio (hands up, no buzzer) is the most practical way of measuring... it replicates the surrender. You are surrendering, and YOU decide when to move, and the reaction time penalty falls on the BG, and gives you at least .5 sec advantage... maybe more if he's a schmuck.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:05:02 (ZULU)

BROGERS You have mail (Wyoming)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:07:12 (ZULU)

Mark,

"How realistic is it to assume a knife attack will present itself openly from 20 feet? So why train that way?" Well said. It is but one of many facets to train. Varied distances; up close & personal to further back and/or with obstacles in between.

"Seems to me one has to be aware enough of who enters his space in certain circumstances to prevail in something like a knife attack, gunslinger or not. So the mindset is critical." Right on my man. Always, always be aware. Not paranoid, just aware.

"While refined tactics are desired in both cases, I would think they vary with the different situations encountered by LE and civilians...... Threat assesment trumps speed for the civilian...." Key point. Many many variables. Reaction is a very subjective thing. Even with the fancy lazer CD FATS training, the training environment is limited. When the new recruits (LE) start asking during training, "What do you carry off duty?", I tellem most often the most important thing to carry is the survival mindset. Stay alive & be the best damned witness the responding officers ever deal with. Especially if you are with family. Priorities.

Kevin, "That all depends on the civilian." Yessiree. That all depends on the individual LE too!! btw, how ya been. Haven't talked since Gaithersburg last Jan. Keep up the good work with that boy.

out.

Deputy Doug <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:13:15 (ZULU)

Bill,

Prop?

Howabout "I own, and shoot a Glock 23?" and a SIG P-229.........

ZZZZZZZZZap ! sudden silence in the house?

There the cats outta the bag, and even Lito's gonna have a hard time shooting that one. :-) But I still have a curmudgeonly hankering for my IRON SIGHTED Kimber.

Sinister- Most excellant post AND ADVICE, and a great book to read for all.

Don't wanna get cut, or shot so I train for the worst and ALWAYS hope for the best.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:28:08 (ZULU)

Doug,

Will I see you in Gaithersburg this year? I'm all ready to go. There should be some good information shared this year.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:30:12 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Did you get my mail?

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 23:37:48 (ZULU)

Bad fight:

Working off duty, plain clothes at Dillards. 275 lb. black lady stole a Calvin Klein sweater and by God I was going to get it back for truth, justice and the American way.

Not ON MY BEAT YOU DON'T ... he hee.

She headed out for the parking lot.

Grabbed her shirt from behind on the run like an NFL receiver headed for the end zone. She never slowed down. Never looked back (Ya'll got a mental picture ?)

Water skied behind her big ass in my Rockports and slacks for a good twenty five yards ... all the way to her car. She got to the car, turned and swung.

Whissssshhhhhhh. HA ! Ducked it. Bitch ! IT'S ON NOW um hum.

Came up with my portable by the antennae and clocked her big ass in the side of the head. Didn't faze her. Damn.

She was trying to get her keys in the door and that boys . . . THAT is when I got out my handy can of cayanjalapenopepper oleosporumcapsicum spray. Hold my beer, watch this shit.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (spraying)! HA ! Double HA ! Take that. Damn, wind changed. We both got some. Got one cuff on her and was trying to drag her to the store and call for help cause I couldn't see shit.

Yanking on the damn cuff. Damn, dead weight. Like dragging a cow. She wouldn't budge but my feet would come a foot off the ground. Finally drug her fat ass to the sidewalk and a unit showed up. We were both worn plum out.

Rubbing my damn eyes, her screaming law suit, my boys pissing their pants laughing trying to get the cuff off. What a sight.

Whew. Close one. WTF ? This shit never happens on NYPD Blue.

Later discovered that a year before, she drug a cop down the street after he reached in to turn off the car and she rolled his arm up in the window. Same kinda deal. Constable had to draw and donk her in the temple with his Sig weak handed to get her to stop.

I hate Calvin Klein.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:06:08 (ZULU)

Brian, you are too much :) need a coke alert with a story like that !!

That fancipants spray stuff works good on mad bulls too. Juss makes it harder for the farmer to roundem up!!

Kevin, Yeah, I might make it to Gaitherburg. Gonna try like heck to get my team commander there so's he can finally get an idea of what we do & how to use us right.

out.

Deputy Doug <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:15:17 (ZULU)

PeterL- When ole John Moses designed it, the Browning MG had a big water jacket around the barrel (1917) and included a radiator and pump in some models. Don't got no steenking overheated barrels. Quick change on that barrel system was measured with a sundial. Only time I worked on one was to fix a leak on a friends Westinghouse made collector piece. Would like to have that one for a living room decoration.

Browning didn't get to air cooled ground guns till the 1919A4 (?) model. At work, reference books in vault at home. My father did design work on bolt buffers on the M2, Oerlikon 30 & 40 mm and similar stuff. Got some neat manuals and sales samples. No they're not for sale!!!!!!!!!!

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:44:52 (ZULU)

Did you notice how Dave did that without calling anybody a dumb-ass?

That's why they made him a Light Colonel and give him the plum commands.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:50:46 (ZULU)

I am a Police Officer in a large Municipality in Canada and have been for 17 years. In 1993 all of the departments in my Province transitioned from revolvers to one of four pistols. The choices were the usual suspects, Berretta, Sig, S&W and Glock; all in DA and all in .40 cal. At the time there was a very strong push for 9mm. There was an equally strong effort to adopt a .45 cal weapon as well. A compromise was met and we ended up in the middle. Initially we were using ball ammunition that proved ineffective. However we managed to lobby for hollow point rounds and since then all has been well in the world of Police ballistics. You rarely read of suspects surviving Police shootings any more, it used to be a forgone conclusion with the old .38's.

My department adopted the Glock with little or no competition due to it's long standing with or SWAT people. I was a little dubious of this at first and my heart still wished for something with a juice-can bullet and made of steel, however, I kept an open mind. Anything would be better than my 1953 vintage S&W .38 with truncated cone target ammunition. It was not long before I became a strong believer, but I still wondered if there was something better out there.

I soon found I had the opportunity to answer this question when I was seconded to our Police College as a firearms instructor. I was required to become proficient in all four of the weapons that the students might someday carry. To accomplish this I had a range to myself and a key to the ammunition locker. I fired sufficient rounds through each weapon to become intimate with it. I spent three years teaching there and had a few observations.

Firstly, a weapon should be fit to the man, not the other way around. I had many a recruit who had difficulty holding the weapon issued to them. The Berretta was particularly bad. In fact I only had one recruit who was the correct size for this weapon. He was seven foot six and could pick up a basketball with two fingers. It was a hopeless task to try and get some of our smaller stature Officers to shoot well with the Berretta. A single action version would have only been slightly better, it was the width of the grip that caused the problem. The Sig and Smith had similar issues. I never found a person too large or too small to fire the Glock well.

Secondly, a weapon should be reliable. We had a store of weapons that were used by the recruits since they are not issued a weapon until they graduate. These handguns saw extreme use, firing in excess of one thousand rounds per recruit per course. This could amount to twenty thousand every three months. We wore them out with great abandon. With this type of use you can't help but notice trends. The Sig's trigger and recoil springs would break with annoying regularity. The Smith's rear sight would pop off which meant the hammer safety spring would launch. The Smith also had a weak magazine safety. When the fully loaded magazine was slammed home, as in a high stress event, the safety would break. Either of these things stopped the weapon from functioning. They were all replaced on a yearly basis, except the Glock's. They could stand in excess of one hundred and fifty thousand rounds with no sign of distress.

The Berretta was a story unto itself. On a daily basis we would lose a recoil lug. We would regularly have blown chambers (invariably blamed on bad ammunition, which surprisingly never happened to any of the others). Trigger springs broke often and we lost quite a few takedown lever studs and springs. This little beauty would fly out, never to be found, and on the next round fired, the takedown lever would fall down and the entire top-side would be launched down range. Imagine trying to build confidence in a new shooter when the top half of their weapon is sticking out of the ground like a grave marker? Another major weakness were the magazines. The spring is under such great compression and the butt plate is held on with a very weak detent and when combined it would routinely launch it's contents onto the ground. Much like the rookie holding the now defunct weapon did with his lunch during a high stress exercise.

I attended an MP5 instructor's course and was the only Glock amongst Smith's and Beretta's. One of the Berretta users regularly oiled his weapon using no less than three different types of lube for various areas. He had a stoppage on every live fire exercise and was getting frustrated when he asked the instructor why I never seemed to have to clear my weapon when all of the others were getting so much practice at it. The instructor answered in his mid western accent "Because, he has a Glock son."

Thirdly a weapon must be easily serviced in the field. All of these weapons, except of course the Glock, have far too many pieces to be field worthy. Have you ever tried to fit a Smith ejector rod assembly with cold hands? The Berretta is actually quite easy to strip, maybe too easy. In recent years the slide has been removed from Officer's handguns by suspects who have trained in this little trick. It does work and no you won't get a shot off before he has your slide. Another of the many annoyances of the Berretta are it's sharp edges. We kept a box of bandages handy for the unfortunates who were routinely bitten.

The only thing that Berretta has is the sales people. They swept down on our departments like a tide of locusts. They brought trinkets and expense accounts and hit the poor unsuspecting armorers hard. Many appear to have been bitten by the bug. Ten years later, many are regretting it. Their fancy high priced pistols are now in need of replacement.

The above issues are enough to negate the Berretta as a suitable side arm. The fact that the military are forced to use ball ammo is another, 9mm ball just doesn't work. The .45 is the obvious choice since it has a long-standing record. I don't, however, believe that the Colt platform is the way to go anymore. I may sound like a billboard for the Glock but I come by it honestly. The Glock 20 is cheaper, more reliable, easier to handle and tote, has more capacity and is infinitely more field serviceable than any other sidearm. I guess the main issue is to do away with the M9 altogether and worry about it's replacement later. I feel for the soldier in battle, I wouldn't have any confidence in an M9.

Sorry for the length of my letter, but I feel strongly about this issue. These charlatans have been foisting this poorly designed and overly complex pistol on us for years and it is costing lives. It's time for this to stop. When is the grunt going to be given the choice of which device he will defend himself and his country with? I, personally, would like to know who benefited from the US Army contract for the M9. I wonder if they can sleep at night?

art <atraison@shaw.ca>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:59:04 (ZULU)

Guys , the pistol comparison is part of a letter that i posted here seein' as pistols are a topic but i am not the author.

art <atraison@shaw.ca>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:04:54 (ZULU)

Damn Hawgs, the last 5 or 6 days of threads on the roster have given me a headache. Somebody needs to summarize!

Eyes crossed, Bolster out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:15:23 (ZULU)

Here goes, nothing personnal..

For most of us a handgun is a reactive instrument..If a threat is obvious it {or something better} should be in our hands..But generally, the handgun is brought into play due to some external stimulus; ie. our primary goes down, we perceive an immediate threat, are charged by a knife wielder, etc.. The fact [not disputed] that one can draw and fire a self innitiated shot with a hit on the range in .4, .1, or 10 seconds does not neccesarily prove much of anything except that it can be done in whatever time. The type of weapon used means nothing. IMHO, and it would be hard to prove, the true test is what can be done, on demand, as we go about our daily business..Could you draw{or acquire}your handgun and deal with a problem now, in front of your computer?? Could you do it in 1,2,3,4,20 seconds and deal?? Or, is the sucker locked in the gun safe?? LE folks , in my limited experience, on the range with duty gear and retention straps in place, have a hard time breaking the 1.5 sec. mark for drawing and firing one good shot at 5-7 yds. Most citizens[I hate the civilian term} have a tough time breaking 2 from concealment. This is with the knowledge of the impending start signal. Factor in the mental aspects of preceive the threat, decide what to do, and then react, the average practical[what a great word] gun carrier is not likely to respond to a sudden threat in anything close to record time.

Awareness, mindset, training, a knowledge of tactics, and practice are the keys to surviving armed encounters, IMO.. A self innitiated .4 on the range, for the average armed citizen or Law enforcement officer, doesn't mean much. What can be done in reaction to a startle type stimulus or under condition white/yellow will ultimately tell the tail..CDCs mention of the gunfight survivors from a well known school speaks volumes, as these folks were generally not "gun People". They went to school to learn skills for survival and many have gotten their monies worth.

End of observations from the Alleghenies

outa here and ducking!!!!!!

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:22:26 (ZULU)

Brian(IN)Sain and 'Lito:

ROTFLMAO! Ha!

Roster Hawgs: The 6.5X55 has a slightly larger diameter,(.476) so does a standard (.473) bolt face have to be opened up slightly on the push feed style bolts, or is there enough tolerance? Also, if the bolt face DOES have to be machined, does that mean it can no longer be used for the standard (.473) bolt face size of cartridge ever again? Inquiring minds want to know....and thanks.

BRogers: Glad to see you're back. I would've missed your dialogue.

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Snow, Ice, Cold Country, MN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:36:16 (ZULU)

Jerry S.- you're only talking 0.003" difference, should work without mods as is within generally acceptable tolerances. Old German saying, "Measure 10,000 times, cut once."

Art-interesting post, all the S&W ejector/magazine safe failures I've seen were failsafe events that were detected in cleaning. I'll assume the ejector rod comment dealt with revolvers.

Actually, good point noted here but not brought out. When we did our service pistol trials in 1990/91 I called a slew of police deparments that had adopted semi auto pistols about their preventive maintenance programs. NOBODY HAD ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seemed real strange to me, they do X thousand mile maintenance on patrol vehicles and wait for the firearms to break. Since I know competition shooters who put many times 20K rounds per year through their pieces without the destruction mentioned, the value of PM is obvious.

Just as a point of interest, in those trials the Glock 19 we received for test wouldn't run a magazine of hardball without at least one malfunction. Based on experience, we called Glock for different magazines and were told that Glocks never fail, we were too stupid to operate them properly. Needless to say, we didn't buy Glocks. The LE sales manager got replaced a couple of months later.

There's a teletype report that a nuke site had a Glock fail today, frame rails allegedly broken.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 02:40:49 (ZULU)

Markwell

Don't duck. Walk proud True post

The Ol Gunny said If i want a 7 I would have told you to shoot me a 7 Now damm it shoot me a 10

Semper Fi

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 02:43:23 (ZULU)

Markwell: One of these days we're going to have to take turns buying each other beers and trading dirty jokes. You've got a lot of sense.

All: I posted some stuff I don't agree with. ie: Follow orders blindly for a year then engage brain. What I meant was that some very smart people have studied the subject of fighting with handguns. Their doctrine is available. Before someone attempts to reinvent the Space Shuttle in the basement it pays to carefully study what has gone before. And not just marksmanship. Gun manipulation and mindset are equally important. Once manipulation is made automatic, you can catch the tips on the stance, grip, sight picture, etc and benefit from them. That doesn't take a year.

There's a point to be made about asking for tips from the better shooters: Shooters are a little clannish. When you go to a new range or a new meet, the guys there want to talk to the guys they know.

If you shoot good then behave like a "good ol' boy", they get friendly. Just trade tips then listen carefully. Tell them everything you know and they'll tell you everything they know. It's just like this place.

Pablo: Do you write that stuff? That's deadly accurate and very funny but may not be quite fair to Thunder Ranch. The story I get is that Clint Smith is a serious person.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 04:11:22 (ZULU)

No takers on my solid belly versus metal belly question? C'mon here, there has to be SOMEONE that knows why everyone goes with BDL types instead of ADL types for tac rifles! I find it hard to believe, but is it nothing more than dirt can get around a closed bolt, into the magazine, and cause problems, therefore it's easier to dump the mag and clean from the bottom rather than out the top? Clamping tension between those huge base metals and the action? Bueller? Bueller?

And you're skipping out on me too Mr. Bolt! C'mon, what you use for gunky old grease on aluminum?

It appears that Markwell has proven that the myths about poor education in the Alleghenies is just that. Right on. Just right on.

Art, with you too. The 92F is a chunk, hated it. Got extremely similar info from one of our local boys that was given the S&W Sigma at accademy. Said that they fall apart, fail, and generally approximate junk. He's a Glock fan though, so take it for what it's worth.

Brian, there you go again. You got the moral of the story wrong. It's not Calvin Klein you should hate, it's 275 pound women! You keep some of that bioshield, or whatever the name is, on hand now? HA! I'm just thanking my lucky stars that it's not THOSE chicks that dig us LOL

PeteR, you shoot Sigs too? That was one of the very few that I could put my name on for reliability out of the box. Too bad it didn't fit my hand por caca. Hands on jelly doughnut you die. Still chuckling. Can't you just YELL bang, or you gotta use bad language?

Mozambique, hey CDC, see if this jogs your memory. I think what I recall went something along the lines of those technicals there starting to wear body armor. A proper solution to the problem at hand was given, but due to the body armor, it didn't work. Afterwords, the solution to body armor was the Mozambique. Rattling and confusion was what I was told, along with the "make sure everyone gets served once before anyone goes back for seconds". Now, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. By the way, I agree completely with your statements of training. Too many cooks spoil the stew, and muscle memory rules.

Dave, CDC is right. There's a reason you're too cool. Now, are you in Vegas for real? Drop me a line, there may be cause for celebration.

Andy's Dad, to you Sir, I say houah. That's the way to raise a boy! You're a credit to us all.

Mike, you'll be happy to know that 9 is going the way of the dodo. Kind of. It'll take some time, but it's turning into a 45. I've always had more faith in the 45 ACP, that's not the issue. Although you know I'll put up a good arguement for the Souper 9 LOL. If I could buy 40's for what I can buy 9's for, I'd switch tomorrow, not that I feel I have to have it, but hey, bigger is always better, right? OK, I'm cheap. I admit it. But I do spend my money WISELY, and I still plug your slings and Bruces tactical slide rule as great innovations.

Bill, you wore out two Pythons? I have no doubt. Why Colt ever billed those as 357's is beyond me. In my book, they're every bit the 357 that the Smith K frames are. They'll take a serious long pounding with 38's forever. Get 357's around them, they go to pieces quick. But you knew that LOL.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 04:46:58 (ZULU)

Sane, you are one funny MF! Fat women are evil! One lactated on my buddy in Haiti. She got half a can of 12% OC and didn't seem so eager after that. Hit her with a radio? Don't you guys have ASP's or even better, the autolock Monadnocks? Hell, a blackjack does the deed better than a Motorola. I picked up a 26" Monadnock when I thought I was going to do some JTF-6 stuff down your way. Figured that a 6'2" ugly bastich like me swinging that sucker would get the illegal's attention PDQ. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 05:24:36 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave: Exellent post on Lanny Bassham and competetive shooting.

"Find out what the best people in your sport or business are doing, and duplicate what they do."

"Training five or more hours a day five days a week is not uncommon among Olympians. They find more efficient ways to train. They focus on maximizing their equipment advantage, and if there are any technical advances out there, they find them."

80%+ of the top international 300m shooters use 6mm Norma BR.

Nobody shoots with Rem 700 actions.

INCOMING! ;-)

TorF

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 07:28:39 (ZULU)

CDC...

Thunder Ranch??? What Thunder Ranch??? Real gun fighters don't train at no steeenkin' Thunder Ranch!

It was "ThunderGun Farm", the training site for real pros... Thunder Ranch is for sissies ;))

Speakin' of "Queeks Draw"... do any of you ol' timers remember back in the 70's, the Federal Marshal that had a worlds record draw with an empty chamber 1911?

He would draw a 1911 (empty chamber) up a few inches, then he could catch the edge of the slide on a leather lip in the holster, and he would push the pistol back DOWN into the holster, thereby racking the slide and loading a round, then he would draw the pistol out of the holster (slide spring helping to push it out) and shoot... all in "well under" a second.

He was all over TV in those days, and on Ed Sullivan too. He's in the book of records.

It's 4 in the morning, and 14 degrees out, why am I on the Roster???????

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 08:15:47 (ZULU)

Markwell,

Excellent summary. I was thinking about the computer issue Monday morning while reading the roster. Most good CCW classes teach acquisition from many different scenarios and positions. Add up the total time you spend in your car everyday. Can you defend yourself and get your family out without shooting yourself in the leg? (Not you personally) Most folks have never fired a pistol inside a car, it's REAL loud. If you have to shoot thru the windshield, do you aim high or low? You made many good points, thanks. My family thinks I'm crazy but if we're ever accosted in the car, they know the drill. Same with a housefire, have a plan and practice.

Kevin,

PJ, 8, received his first descender and harness this fall when he got his first treehouse. He didn't want the stinkin ladder, said it was to easy for the girls to get up to the fort. He now fast ropes the 15' to the ground. He's gonna kill me or worry me to death. I've been busy with an offer I received on Monday. I apologize about the shipping. Hopefully today, Next Day Air.

Jaeger,

The bottom metal is for dumping all your ammo out in the dirt when you push the wrong button. Other than that, maybe you can belt feed one and nobody told us. :))) Thanks for your help by the way and glad your back, Jim. :)))

CDC,

You are quite right about Mr. Smith, he doesn't suffer fools very well at all. A week of his time is worth way more than he charges.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 10:31:21 (ZULU)

Lito; you are thinking zactly what I'm trying to say. IF you initiate the action you're in control at least if you don't spend too long gettin it in action. IF you can work the other fella's reaction time against him, you usually could walk away.

Lots of good stuff.

Yes Dave, thanks for not calling Dan a dumb ass! :) I would have forgiven you but would he? :)

ART; Too much truth around here and you'll need a flak jacket.

IF Mike and I had went to competetion he would surely have won the "clearing" contest. Hands down. I can remember it some from my 1911 days but it's faded mostly.

Sorry I woke up mean spirited again this morning. Maybe I'll get better after breakfast.

I can't help but notice those who boast long draw times are solid in their convictions that it doesn't matter. Let me get the first shot in if I can.

Told you I was mean on Wednesdays.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 11:06:22 (ZULU)

Brodgers,

Now there's a topic... which is more important, a first round hit or just bein' first? I know that you'll have a first round hit but I'm speakin, like Markwell, the average:)), gun totin' civvie.

Brian,

Are you sure you didn't just want the sweater? :)))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 11:18:20 (ZULU)

Mr. Sinister,

Like you, I would prefer to have better ammunition than M80 Ball but if that is all that's available in the supply system, I would rather have a rifle capable of firing it than have a high-speed gun without any ammunition. An M24, even if chambered for sixfive something, is a very poor design for a club. Police, competitive shooters, hobbyists, etc. have the luxury of shooting anything they want (Department sanctioned of course) while Soldiers/Sailors/Marines are dependent on the supply system to get ammunition to them on time and in the required amounts wherever they might be deployed. I really like the increased danger space provided by a flat shooting cartridge and have nothing against the sixfive except it is not in the system.

I don't know of any military currently issuing a sixfive x anything, do you? From my observations, most of the European Armies are looking to the 300WM and 338 Lapua for increased range.

I know, now I've stirred up the sixfive crowd again and the sixfive is better than the 300WM and 338 L. because...

Personally, I get more enjoyment out of shooting a 45-70 Remington Rolling Block with lead bullets and BP than anything else these days. Anyone else shooting BPCR?

Marc

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 11:59:06 (ZULU)

Brian;

Being in LE I too have worked waaayy to many hours OT for the lovely Dillards Company. Didn't you get all that "Sensitivity" training on how to handle unhappy customers?

I swear, you SWAT guys are all just jack-booted thugs, even when you are off duty!!!

Rich Johnson <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:22:45 (ZULU)

John; that a good point sure nuff. With all this talk about QD as a "tactic" (that ought to raise eyebrows), Hitting with the first round is bound to save a lot of time. But hitting first with the first round is infinitely better.

One of the reasons I switched to the infamous Glock is because I didn't want to walk around with a weapon that I knew I could beat my own deployment time with. It has been observed that the more advanced shooters you encounter the more prominent the 1911's. I believe that to be true. Whether or not that indicates the 1911 is better is debatable. Perhaps it's like a INdy 500 car. You have to be better trained to utilize the advantage. eg. The more advanced the better the competetion and the tighter you have to hold. Maybe that's a bad example.

Many people start with the 1911 if you can call it that after 100 years of modification and gadgetry to correct it's shortcoming. IF one must simply have a 1911 then perhaps one should consider the Glock as being the ultimate modification. Most modern pistols are exactly that. Some have double action features, better factory triggers, springs barrels etc., lighter frames etc. and yes even plastic parts but all are basically the 1911 system.

It's hard to overcome the affection for "some good ole American Army gun". With the same reasoning the AR 15/M16 should be scrapped in favor of the M1. On the other end is the M9. VS. 1911. If you make changes you have to make good ones. Usually lighter is better as long as it's controllable and not more breakable. There are lots of Alternatives today. Everyone should use what they want and use best but it's not good to just assume that because somebody's standard is one thing or another it's good and best for everyone. A SWAT operative probably does'nt have much use for ultra fast deployment until his MP 5 runs out of fuel. Most are pretty sure they are gonna need a handgun or something when they enter. On the other hand the traffic cop may not have advanced warning. Approaching with hand on the gun is a good idea if there's any doubt but you can get in trouble with public real quick if you radiate too much force.

OK I'll quit.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:23:10 (ZULU)

Art

In light of your experience teaching with different sidearms, you should appreciate this:

A while back, when many departments were transitioning from wheelguns to autos, the chief instructor at the WV State Police academy, who shall remain nameless,conducted all of the firearms training for Basic classes with gun vault revolvers for 16 weeks irregardless of what weapon the officers would be issued upon graduation. Basic classes consist of local officers, deputies etc., not SP officers. These officers were only allowed to use their issue sidearms on the last day for qualification before graduation. When asked why he did't allow these recruits to use their issued weapons for the entire training cycle his response was "How can I do that? There's too many different types of guns being issued by all these departments. How am I supposed to know how they all work?" His official title was Chief fireams instructor!!!!! Go figure.

Interesting also was the fact that this same gent was in charge of the SP Snipers..They shot a five round group at 100yds twice a year for training and qualification!

Thankfully, things have progressed For the better since then..

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:28:28 (ZULU)

Guys,

I enjoy these discussions about pistols, knives and training. I learn something every time I visit the roster. For what it’s worth here’s my take on the whole subject.

Whether you are knife fighting, pistol fighting or going hand to gland it’s all about the same thing, violence. Technical and tactical proficiency is important but nothing is more important than mindset (willingness to be violent). You must be able to “switch it on” without any warm-up. You’ve got to have what it takes to go from condition white to condition black in one eye-blink. I’ve had the opportunity to observe masters of this art inside a maximum security prison. They can go from a calm conversation to an all out knife fight instantly. These men have mastered this skill because their survival depends on it.

If you ever go into harms way your survival also depends on your ability to “spool-up to speed” instantly. You can’t think about it. You can’t wait to get mad. You must know those things that should trigger your all-out, no holds barred, kill now response. The prize is survival and it won’t always go to the fastest draw or the most accurate shot. The prize most often goes to the most violent and determined individuals.

This isn’t something you can develop through an intellectual understanding of a need. This comes from the inner brain, that most primal part of us, that part that is pretty scary even in the daylight. The really hard part is switching it off. The adrenal bath that takes place is otherworldly and can be intoxicating.

It is this component of combat that it too often overlooked in favor of arguments about technology and tactics. It must never be ignored because without it the best armed and trained individual is dead before the buzzer goes of.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:31:21 (ZULU)

'yote Bate...

>"Told you I was mean on Wednesdays."<

And the other six days??

HA!

;))

Andy's Dad...

>"... but nothing is more important than mindset (willingness to be violent)."<

What you said. Many practice the tricks, but don't have the "will to kill" (I made a pun ;).

I used to teach that the moment to decide to shoot the BG should be made at home, when you strapped on your pistol (or whatever). You need to decide what the limits of danger are (point of no return), and set your mind to react at that point... when the time comes, you don't have to think "Am I in enough danger, should I shoot someone that has threatened me and drawn a gun?".

At that point, your reactions need to be automatic, cuz under lethal stress, your IQ drops to between 25 and 50 (if you're lucky), and you need to focus EVERYTHING in defending yourself.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:48:42 (ZULU)

....aahhhh Pistols.....

I haven't heard any mention of the H&K's in this line of pistolizing thoughts?????

I have a wonderful P9S in .45ACP that has traveled with me since the '80s.....it has always worked flawlessly and will digest anything I put in it......

Rugers....don't be ashamed, my wife carries a P85 and somewhere in the Suburban Urban Assault Vehicle is a P90DC that has gained my respect also......

Here at the office....a Glock 19 is within easy reach...what can I say, it was a good deal at the time !!!!

A good pistol is one that I can control, is reasonably accurate and has been used enough to deem itself reliable....if'n it ain't none of these three, hell--give me a knife !!!!

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:55:52 (ZULU)

'Lito,

>>> At that point, your reactions need to be automatic, cuz under lethal stress, your IQ drops to between 25 and 50 (if you're lucky), <<<

Man,, what if you start at 50,,, I could be in trouble ;))

FatBoy,,,

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:20:39 (ZULU)

Kevin: Right. Without mindset it's all pointless. The "Color Code" is supposed to have solved that for those who employ it. For those who don't know the system is as follows:

Condition White: Fat, dumb and happy. Everybody loves me and the world is all sugar and sunshine.

Condition Yellow: There's bad people around. Now let's see if I can spot one.

Condition Orange: That guy right there is dangerous. I am prepared to defend myself from him.

Condition Red: Party time.

I've never heard of condition black.

The story I heard is that it is relatively easy to jump one color. It is very difficult to jump two colors. Going from white to red can't be done.

All: I move that we deep six this rotting carcass of a Glock v 1911 thread. Will anyone second?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:24:09 (ZULU)

>>> All: I move that we deep six this rotting carcass of a Glock v 1911 thread. Will anyone second <<<

I second, thrid, fourth and fifth it,,,,

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:27:16 (ZULU)

Well said, Kevin.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:28:36 (ZULU)

Jaeger..

I must have missed your original question on the BDL vs the ADL so I am winging it here. If you ask why tactical shooters use the BDL over the ADL I will tell you why "I" do. It has nothing to do with dirt.

If you have ever been in a big hurry stuffing rounds into your action during a man on man shoot and you get them "Cocked" in there and they lock up its a nightmare with a ADL stock. I have had to take the stock off of the rifle to get the wedged rounds out of there.

In fact last night I was loading rounds for my new 260 and had them a "Tad" long and got three stuck in the mag. and its the shits trying to get them out.

I would think this is the main reason for the BDL over the ADLs in tactical shooting. My son and I both train to make a concious effort to push the round all the way to the rear of the mag when loading it. This is critical with rounds loaded to max length. At least this would be my humble opinion on one over the other.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:44:36 (ZULU)

CDC wrote,

“Going from white to red can't be done.”

Attica, Auburn, Bedford Hills, Clinton, Coxsakie, Downstate, Easton, Elmira, Five Points, Great Medows, Greenhaven, Shawangunk, Sing Sing, Southport, Sulliavan, Upstate and Wende Correctional Facilities are full of men that can go from White to Red in one jump.

The interesting thing is they are getting let out daily.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:59:45 (ZULU)

CDC and company,

"Condition Black" has been described as lights out panic, complete breakdown of one's conscious being due to overwhelming feeling of terror, absolutely incapable of function.

Amen to what 'Lito said, " The moment... you strapped on your pistol..."

out

Deputy Doug <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:24:37 (ZULU)

Kevin: "Condition White: Fat, dumb and happy. Everybody loves me and the world is all sugar and sunshine."

It would surprise me if those convicts had that attitude. It seems as if they would switch between a hot yellow and orange many times a day. Under those conditions it would seem that they wouldn't even sleep in condition white.

I sure wouldn't.

Speaking of Condition Orange turning to Condition Red: The 8th is going to be a big day for Sadaam.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5921-2002Dec3.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:25:57 (ZULU)

Kevin,

So true, but those ayeholes LIVE in condition orange until next victim comes into field of fire. Lets start another program for them.

out

Deputy Doug <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:27:43 (ZULU)

CDC & Doug:

That makes sense to me.

I guess the description would best be passive (orange) to violent(red) in an eye-blink. I've seen it. It's scary. Guys like that are a threat of the first order. They are without "ruth".

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:48:15 (ZULU)

KEVIN/ALL: Mind Set. You guys are right about that stuff.

SINISTER: Back in the 80s when I started shooting IHMSA, a WINNER kinda took me under his wing. Wasn't long before I was WINNING and the other WINNERS would ask me to go to matches with 'em. We shot (and WON) all over the Southwest. I was just a kid. Wasn't long before I was beating them. At that level, it came down to just whoevers "day" it was. I was shooting every single day, anywhere from 400 to 600 rounds a week (counting the small bore stuff) and reloading for four centerfires. In the big scheme of things, most cops don't get that type of shooting experience. Helped me out later.

Then I got into LE followed shortly thereafter by a new baby, straight nights and no weekends off for years. There went the match shooting ... thank God for muscle memory 'cause I just don't get to shoot like that anymore.

The people that taught me how to REALLY shoot were to a man: A school teacher, a machinist, a welder, a plant worker, a heavy equipment operator and a CPA.

SWAT/PISTOLS: Most guys like a shoulder fired weapon for entry work. Doesn't matter to me. I am at no disadvantage with a pistol for my "primary" room to room. I mean when you can stand on your hind feet and hit a ram at 200 meters, room to room is a no brainer (almost). I can do it well and I can do it fast. No brag, no big deal, I just have done it a bunch and it is just a fact.

Riflewise, all three of my guys can outshoot me from the prone. Standing on my hind feet however, I shine. Confidence thing I guess.

The ARs and MPs do have a certain effect when you point them with the lights and lasers. The BGs ain't used to that and quite literally shit themselves which pretty much takes the fight out of 'em (usually). We don't count on it though and we don't get complacent.

BILL: They won't let us carry 1911s. Worried about Single Action ADs. Mostly uneducated, untrained folks in high positions that think they are very well educated and trained, calling the shots.

Us SWAT guys have city Glock 35s. I have to "think" to shoot it well. I have adapted but don't like them neccessarily. They point a little high for me. Long barrel is no big advantage for me room to room. Especially when one is used to shooting 10" and 14" TCs and XPs with 1 lb. or lighter triggers.

Buying the 35 wasn't my call but hey, I'll take it. I like the light rail on it a LOT though and ... like a Coonass and a crawfish, they function well in the mud.

However, a SIG 220 for me, is just like pointing my finger and picking one up is like saying hi to an old friend you haven't seen in a while. HK USPs bite (for me).

RICH: Yeah, got the sensitivity training. Watched the films. It didn't take.

THUNDER RANCH: Most cops can't afford the price tag but I like the place and I like Clint Smith.

KEN M: We got ASP batons. I am a Detective though. We don't usually carry that stuff while in plain clothes. Hell, everybody knows we just play golf and drink coffee. Ask any patrolman.

But we look good ... and the chicks dig us.

Fat ones need love too. Even if it is "tough love".

Coulda used that sweater for a car cover. he he.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:04:57 (ZULU)

CDC, I know you're familiar with condition black, but for the education of the audience, I'll pretend that I don't know you're proping me. It was introduced by a well known gun writer (note, not firearms instructor, active duty cop, or combat veteran) as a supposed enbetterment (that's a Dilbert management term for those of you who like that stuff) of the Cooper color code system. It's SUPPOSED to be the midst of battle, after you've determined that it's party time, and initiated dropping something stinky in the punchbowl. It was supposedly to reflect the tunnel vision, reversion to muscle memory, lack of fine motor skills, etc. As you note, it's not only redundant, it's silly. On the 1911 versus Glock, sure, I'll second. We all knew this thing would end in a draw when it started anyway. Someone (LOL) said something about Glock versus 1911 piefight #27 being in the archives. Well, let's end #28, and tell the newcomers to visit the archives.

Thanks Pat, I knew there HAD to be a reason. Clearing jams, that makes sense. Why Remington made their left bolt raceway the same size as a standard casehead never made much sense to me anyway. Gee. I wonder who makes one larger, so the round can't get caught in there? Wouldn't that be a move "evolved" action? Do you figure without this action type hang-up, the bottom metal is still advantageous?

Sorry, now that the Glock versus 1911 pie fight is over, I automatically want to start a pie fight over Remingtons versus TR's favorite (no, not the Krag-Jorgensen).

So now, since the pies have stopped flying, and I've proven the superiority of the sweet potato without whipped topping due to it's flatter trajectory and better sectional density, let me ask some serious shooting questions.

I've been a fan of Norma for quite some time. Anyone RECENTLY get some Norma and some Lapua to try side by side? Give me the statement that the Lapua is good-to-go out of the box, just needs chamfering, and loading, and is at least the same quality as Norma. Please. Or am I the only Norma fan out here? You've just got to love CUT brass.

And has anyone noticed the Lapua bullets are kind of variable in length? It's making me wonder if I'm missing something. Those Redding comp dies seat on the ogive, but not being properly educated (GRIN), I do have to wonder. Pat and Wes, you running the SMK's in your 264's, AMAX's? La-poo-HA!'s?

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:12:43 (ZULU)

Kevin.

Who might be good at going from "on" to "off" in a sub-second? What identifying characteristics do folks that are good at this have in common? Some of it is nature, some of it nurture.... is a killer mindset really primal... I say resoundingly NO. A predator mindset is primal, not the same thing in my opinion.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:24:18 (ZULU)

>>>>>Damn Hawgs, the last 5 or 6 days of threads on the roster have given me a headache. Somebody needs to summarize!<<<<<

I agree.

I've heard just about everything pro and con about 1911s, Sigs, S&Ws, Glocks, CZs, Rugers, etc., etc (which I currently own many of). Therefore it's my conclusion to go buy a SA XD40. It's the only (Major Manufacured) pistol that hasn't been crucified (or talked about) during this discussion...yet. Besides, I like the looks of them, feels better than a Glotch, natural POA works better for me, the clips fall out nicely, I like the grip safety, (one other Rosterferian here likes them better and says they're more accurate than the Glock. His words not mine ;)) and besides all that...I want one. How's that for a summary? ;))))))

OKAY! WHO THREW THE BRICK ;)))))))))

NOW you can DEEP SIX this thread.

>>>>>I've never heard of condition black.<<<<<<

I haven't either. That must mean...Dead, Dead, Dead.

Brian (In) Sain,

I'll never be able to think of the term "water skiing" w/o thinking of the story you just told. ROTFLMAO. I'd almost pay money to be your partner for one day.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:51:47 (ZULU)

Condition Black is a training term, not a combat condition code.

It is usually called the “black flag”, when the temp gets over 100F, they call a black flag day and training is suspended due to concern of heat injury.

Then they deploy you to some one million degree shit hole and wonder why you can’t cope with the temp or know how to deal with it.

This was an Army training issue, I never encountered this with the Air Force or other Government agencies I worked with.

Just my 2 cents

Badger six out.

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 16:20:12 (ZULU)

Jaeger..

Both the Norma and Lapua are top quality brass. I have Lapua that I use for the 260 and 308s and Norma for the 6.5x284. There is not much prep needed for either other than what you mentioned.

I have got to the point I don't even weight Lapua anymore. I bought some 8yrs. ago and it weighed the same as the stuff I got last year. I tried turning necks but could tell no difference in accuracy.

My only bitch about Norma is that the 6.5x284 brass now has about 4 different lots with different weights and capacities. The two batches I now have take 1gr. difference in powder for the same performance so I must keep them seperated. The Norma has a reputation for being softer brass and usually more expensive. I prefer the Lapua over the Norma for that reason. If I was to buy brass for the 6.5x284 again it would be Lapua. Hope this helps.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 16:32:17 (ZULU)

Jaeger,

I posted a note about Norma brass awhile back. The lot of 500 I bought all have a .002 thinner neck wall than ANY other brass I have in stock. I had to purchase a new NS bushing just for that brass. The Lapua brass flash holes don't need to be reamed, they're clean. From a performance standpoint, They both shoot more consistent than Remmy, Win. PMC, or any of the other that I've tried in the LTR or M70 308. Case life appears to be about the same with the Lapua lasting a little longer on average. The Norma must be a little softer cuz I have to trim it more often and I have always paid more for Norma. These opinions are based on approximately 3K rounds of 308 and 5K of .223 last year. I use Lapua exclusively except in the M1A. It eats LC Match that I bought in bulk (different years, 66-1980). Not scientific, but it convinced me over a period of time to just stick to Lapua. I hate sorting brass. :))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 17:28:39 (ZULU)

The way the color code was always explained to me was:

1. WHITE - Totally unaware of ones surroundings.

2. YELLOW - Concious awareness of ones surroundings.

3. ORANGE - Something unusual arouses ones suspicion.

4. RED - An actual, perceived threat (man with a knife).

5. BLACK - An all out struggle for your life.

CAJUN VERSION:

1. HEAD UP DE ASS

2. LOOK BEHINE YOUSELF NOW AN DEN

3. WHO DAT ?

4. OH SHIT !

5. HOLY SHIT !!

Always made sense to me.

You may get caught in White, and not see Black until you're in it.

The shrinks say you can operate for an infinite amount of time in Yellow with no ill effects to the psyche.

(Common sense stuff really).

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 17:43:18 (ZULU)

Dave,quoting Lanny Bassham,"look like the best shooters,be like them," something like that,damn the best shooters I know are all old blokes.

Ref,mil issue better calibre,like Ken said,the reason snipers dont get a "better" calibre is a lack of commitment to do it from higher up."Which army issues other than nato calibre",the Oz army uses 6.5x55 as a prac round in the carl gustav 84.It must be in the system.

pistol country,us Aussies arent allowed to play with those nasty things :( so we'll just have to make do with our prohibited pump actions.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 18:04:39 (ZULU)

Gents,

On the color code thing...

The white, yellow, orange, red, black thing was quantified by Mas Ayoob. Having studied under Ayoob quite a bit I can say that he wanted to make Jeff Cooper's original code his by making a last chance to make sure you have to shoot. Screw that! Any time your thinking when you should be acting you're going to be a dead man, IMHO. I've seen combat...Ayoob has never busted a cap on a perp, but wanted to make the code "his"...

Jeff Cooper HAS seen the elephant and quantified the code first.

White: Unaware of your surroundings

Yellow: Something has caught your attention, but not a specific threat. According to Cooper you should be in yellow when in public most of the time.

Orange: Aware of a specific threat...

Red: Go command! All bets are off. Act or you won't have time to think about it later.

Norma vs. Lapua. I use Norma in my 6.5 X .284 and have no problems. I AM using the original lot, however. Have some Lapua to try...

Use Lapua exclusively in my .308 and have found it uniform lot to lot.Them Fins know there stuff.

Day off...am going to load some .338 Lapua and go play next week. Just got my cases in from Sinclair International along with my 250 grain Lapua Scenars.

Let's get back to rifles, gents. Don't matter one iota what pistol you use if you are proficient...remember fit, caliber, and reliability are what counts...the rest is your personal choice.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 18:35:40 (ZULU)

I hear ya Wes. You gotta have the mindest and you gotta act CORRECTLY at the CORRECT TIME. It helps if the thinking is already done but it can't always be that way. Sucks if you are behind the curve. Some folks think (and react) fast on their feet. Some don't.

But ... whatever the motivation was for adding the color Black ... I still think it makes sense to do so FOR COPS.

In war, if you get to RED: He's the enemy, he's armed, you go to guns on the fucker or you don't come home, end of story. Don't need no steenking color Black mange.

BUT ON THE STREETS, you may or may not have to shoot him just because he has a weapon and is a threat. Here again is the classic difference between the cops and soldiers. I mean you may have to shoot his ass right the hell now or then again, you may not. Depends entirely on what he's doing with the weapon and his actions and maybe even what has happened prior, whether or not you have cover, etc. He's still damn sure a threat but only you can decide how much of one and what action to take within the parameters of the law.

Just because he has a knife or gun doesn't mean you neccessarily automatically shoot him. "Welp, I'm at RED bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrppp" Oops. Okay, maybe it was just a little pink.

If he's pointing a weapon at another person then by all means yeah, do what you gotta do, if it's safe to do so. No bystanders, etc. Lots of things to think of QUICK !

If he's just standing there holding it pointing down, or pointing it at himself, it ain't gonna look good for you if you just blast him.

If you are threatened and you shoot him, you are going to have to give specific and articulable facts to a Grand Jury as to why you felt threatened enough to use deadly force. If you can do so fine. If not, you're fucked.

If he's a perceived threat and if you have the drop on him and challenge him i.e. "drop the gun" or whatever, and he does, you're good. Still at Red but good. Can't always do that though.

If he doesn't comply and you are truly threatened, then certainly you may have to light him up. Black.

Certainly, you aren't always going to have that much time to decide. In that case, you may go exactly from White or Yellow to Black (or Red depending on your interpretation of the color code).

Did any of that make sense ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:10:40 (ZULU)

Brian,

Cajun color code says it best. I'm going to have to borrow that one. Too funny cause it's true.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:15:04 (ZULU)

Brian...

Your always good for a laugh and your Cajun version was the best. Must say it covers it all. How is the book coming? Let us know when it is available.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:43:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

Youz guys can call condition colors whatever you want. For me, condition "black" was flying NOE at a slightly higher airspeed than errr, is recommended (allowed), when the damn NVGs quit. Last thing I saw before they quit was a tree that needed some avoiding...

Then I went to condition "save yer ass."

After the impromptu cyclic climb...condition "hand-shake"...followed by condition "all done for the night..."

Heheh.

Brian, you crack me up. Car cover...LOL. I've got some GP Medium tent poles and stakes--maybe we could have a SC camp-out under that thing...

Had one knife confrontation...I was too dumb to realize how lucky I was at the time...so dumb in fact, I ain't gonna tell ya the exact details except I came out the other end with a win. And two "extra" wallets. Once I had the knife (I initiated armed only with an over-sized ego), I asked for the wallets back--the original victims', NOT the perps--but I got their wallets too. A simple case of a young, slightly drunk ranger turning a robbery into a robbery quite by accident...let's leave the details alone...statutes of limitations and all that. Hahaha. The immediate fallout was hero status with some coeds....and I lived Brian's life for a week or two with the chippies diggin' me. Best TDY trip that whole year...and damned lucky to have lived to tell the story! I shoulda played the lottery that day.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:45:20 (ZULU)

Brian,

I think you'll agree on this, but in your field youse don't need all dem fancy assed colors. Every situation is either black and white, or grey. hah..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:48:10 (ZULU)

JR, George, et al,

Barrels pre-threaded for a AI receiver will no workie with a remington right?

I think they would have, had the chamber area been more than 4" (2" threaded). I could have cut the threads off and re-threaded,, but these are also fluted,, so that would have put the chamber under flutes,, which don't sound real bright to me....

Am I off base??

FatBoy...

Hey guys,

This may sound kinda dumb but am I a HAWG yet ?

I mean, I been pissin' ya'll off here for about a year and a half and I was just wonderin' how long the probationary period was.

'Lito said I had to dance naked and blindfolded with a hungry baby nanny goat in front of everyone or something before I got my SC secret de-coder ring. Is that true ? Haven't done that since I was a kid. I just don't know guys ...

Book stuff has slowed down a little. Letting the dust settle from Maryland before I start calling them ole warriors up for interviews again. Some of those fellas have some real demons from things they have seen. Just trying to be respectful.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 22:51:46 (ZULU)

Brian...

>"This may sound kinda dumb but am I considered a HAWG yet ?"<

Naw... but you make a rightious "Cajun Coonass" ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 22:58:20 (ZULU)

Get the shovel Dan;

I shall now here-to-fore refer to the Austrian Tupperware Tiger as the TT-1911 Light. Hope that won't offend anyone.

Mark; I think I told you I tried one of those 40's and tried to trade my TT1911-L for it on the spot. Didn't get it done though. Damn guy was too smart. And I had night sights too.

Try not to get too damn psyco with your weapons confrontations. What if you forget a color? YOu could run your kill drill backwards! And wind up shooting backwards.

Jeager; Would that be the 1896 Winchester?

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:14:03 (ZULU)

Yo hawgs,

Haven't been surfing much. I see we rehashed Pistola Country again.

Dan is back. 'Yote bait is still grumpy. ;-)

Insain, "Who dat?" ROFLMAO! Cut and paste baby.

Joe, did Blake get one last weekend?

Be careful of that stainless Springfield, they had a run of bad slides. They break in half an inch or two back of the muzzle. That was from ARFCOM, run a search, they have some pics.

Out here.

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:33:12 (ZULU)

Bill: The color code is simple enough for anyone to understand.

Make that ALMOST anyone.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:37:17 (ZULU)

CDC,

Youse mankin' fun of me 38 IQ again??

FatBoy...

For you guys shooting modern gas guns (AR-10's) :)

I just got about 200 Lapua .308 cases and Graf was out of the boolits I ordered. So next issue, not having reloaded for .308 before, what boolits seem to work well in the regular guns. Fed 168 GM will do ~3/4 MOA in my A4 to 300 yds (haven't shot further) what boolits work well for you guys? Any problem with mag length and some of the target type bullets like AMAXes? I know 175's are gospel for 1k, I'm only looking at 600 yds for Precision 1 @ SMTC. I'm still shooting the original chrome lined barrel with, I believe, 1:11.25 twist. Eventually I am planning to send this thing to George, but I want to squeeze what I can out of what I have, my wife doesn't like mac-n-cheese as much as I do!

Steve Burris

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:53:29 (ZULU)

$0.02 on Glocks: I have a little bitty model 27 that can put all 9 rounds in a softball-sized group at 25 yards. I once witnessed a guy with a 10mm Glock knock over pepper poppers at 200 yards with stock sights. He was admittedly a talented guy, but he'd never tried that particular trick before that day. The squishy trigger takes a bit of getting used to, but I don't argue with success.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:55:01 (ZULU)

I have two PSS's in 308 that I will doing some major changes to. One is the DM and the other hinged floor plate. I have not had any problems with the DM, I will like to get way from the Rem. DM. Should I convert to HS DM or go with the A1 stock? The other PSS will be getting an A2 stock and new barrel. One will be 26" tube and the other 20". I used them both for hunting and shooting paper long and short rage work. My bigest problem is keeping the cost down,I want to have the actions trued and barrel refinished. Optics is not the problem, I am goin with Leopold X-III's and Badgger rings and base. What do you think?

Alton Alexander <altona@thegrid.net>
California, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:57:34 (ZULU)

DAn; I think I got down the "yellow for pissin on myself in public"! That's easy to remember. I got the "Pink for dance naked and blindfolded with a hungry baby nanny goat."

"Red is for go exactly from White or Yellow to Black."

Aw bull, Only Michael Jackson can do that!

"Purple is dangle a baby from a balcony".

I'm confused already! And still Grumpy of course.

GeoffM; thanks for that, you "made my day punk!" I'm glad I didn't trade my TT1911-L for that maybe! That slide looks good but so does a goat if there's no sheep around.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:31:48 (ZULU)

Alton...

You can't change the Rem "DM" back to a BDL. I don't iknow if it will take the HS mag system, call them FIRST before ordering. Rem had to modify the feed rails of the actiuon to accept the DM system, and you can't go back.

If you are going to have the barrls pulled, DUMP them in the trash. They are the worst factory barrels in the industry. Don't take my word for it, just ask the other hawgs on this site! Rem pays a whoppin' $18 each for them!!

Have a Good Douglas 26" straight taper barrel put on the A2 stock, and it will ballance very well.

Put the 20" (fat Douglas) on the other one.

You can't do this stuff cheap.

Brian...

We had a vote, and decided that you can be a "Hawgette" since yo' is so funny (lookin' ;))

We can't understand why chicks dig you, unless they are swamp women critters, and you smell of Neutria!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:36:52 (ZULU)

Chris; you got mixed up again 38 is your bra size! 25 acp is your IQ.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:36:59 (ZULU)

Glock failure update- weapon involved was a recent production Glock 22 that sheared the rear frame rails. Glock is "Aware of a production problem with the forged frame rail insert and is working on corrective action." Those of you with tactical tupperware produced in the last 18 months may want to contact Glock to see if your personal weapon is in the serial number range with the problem. Department issue types should have your armorers pester Glock forthwith on affected models/serial # ranges.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:46:24 (ZULU)

Thanks for Keepin us posted Mr. Moore, there's nothing holy anymore.

But I can take it! That must be the TT1911-l.F model.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:57:38 (ZULU)

Undude: Did the disk arrive OK?

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:59:37 (ZULU)

Department armorer.... hmmm, that'd be the Sheriff, HAHAHA. no joke!

We ain't got one.

Since coonass' gets more women, when my time comes to dance with the goat, I wanna be one a them.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:03:51 (ZULU)

'Yote Bait,

>>> Chris; you got mixed up again 38 is your bra size! 25 acp is your IQ. <<<

Nooo man,, Only my left titty is big,, the other is normal for a man... Or,, at least that's what I though,, but with an IQ of 25acp,,, I could be mistaken huh ;)))))

Not even a nibble on the barrel question huh??? Lito-san??

FatBoy...

Got the wif' a 17 HMR and am looking for a decent range scope. Nothing fancy, but certainly affordable for the limited abuse she'll give the thing. Would the Vari-X I series be good or does anyone know if they are junk?

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:26:42 (ZULU)

Recived this e-mail today & would like to share it with the board.

> Each year I am hired to go to Washington, DC, with the eighth grade class

> from Clinton, WI, where I grew up, to videotape their trip. I greatly

enjoy

> visiting our nation's capitol, and each year I take some special memories

> back with me. This fall's trip was especially memorable.

> On the last night of our trip we stopped at the Iwo Jima Memorial.

> This memorial is the largest bronze statue in the world and depicts one of

> the most famous photographs in history-that of the six brave soldiers

> raising the American Flag at the top of a rocky hill on the island of Iwo

> Jima, Japan, during WW II. Over one hundred students and chaperones piled

> off the buses and headed towards the memorial. I noticed a solitary figure

> at the base of the statue, and as I got closer he asked, "Where are you

> guys

> from?"

> I told him that we were from Wisconsin.

> "Hey, I'm a cheesehead, too! Come gather around Cheeseheads, and I will

> tell

> you a story."

> James Bradley just happened to be in Washington, DC, to speak at the

> memorial the following day. He was there that night to say good night to

> his

> dad, who has since passed away. He was just about to leave when he saw the

> buses pull up. I videotaped him as he spoke to us, and received his

> permission to share what he said from my videotape. It is one thing to

tour

> the incredible monuments filled with history in Washington, D.C., but it

> quite another to get the kind of insight we received that night. When all

> had gathered around he reverently began to speak. Here are his words that

> night.

> "My name is James Bradley and I'm from Antigo, Wisconsin. My dad is on

that

> statue, and I just wrote a book called "Flags of Our Fathers" which is #5

> on

> the New York Times Best Seller list right now. It is the story of the six

> boys you see behind me. Six boys raised the flag.

> The first guy putting the pole in the ground is Harlon Block. Harlon was

> all-state football player. He enlisted in the Marine Corps with all the

> senior members of his football team. They were off to play another type of

> game. A game called "War." But it didn't turn out to be a game. Harlon, at

> the age of 21, died with his intestines in his hands. I don't say that to

> gross you out, I say that because there are generals who stand in front of

> this statue and talk about the glory of war. You guys need to know that

> most

> of the boys in Iwo Jima were 17, 18, and 19 years old.

> (He pointed to the statue) You see this next guy? That's Rene Gagnon from

> New Hampshire. If you took Rene's helmet off at the moment this photo was

> taken, and looked in the webbing of that helmet, you would find a

> photograph --- a photograph of his girlfriend. Rene put that in there for

> protection, because he was scared. He was 18 years old. Boys won the

battle

> of Iwo Jima. Boys. Not old men.

> The next guy here, the third guy in this tableau, was Sgt. Mike Strank.

> Mike

> is my hero. He was the hero of all these guys. They called him the "old

> man"

> because he was so old. He was already 24. When Mike would motivate his

boys

> in training camp, he didn't say, "Let's go kill some Japanese" or "Let's

> die

> for our country." He knew he was talking to little boys. Instead he would

> say, "You do what I say, and I'll get you home to your mothers."

> The last guy on this side of the statue is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian from

> Arizona. Ira Hayes walked off Iwo Jima. He went into the White House with

> my

> dad. President Truman told him, "You're a hero." He told reporters, "How

> can

> I feel like a hero when 250 of my buddies hit the island with me and only

> 27

> of us walked off alive?" So you take your class at school. 250 of you

> spending a year together having fun, doing everything together. Then all

> 250

> of you hit the beach, but only 27 of your classmates walk off alive. That

> was Ira Hayes. He had images of horror in his mind. Ira Hayes died dead

> drunk, face down at the age of 32...ten years after this picture was

taken.

> The next guy, going around the statue, is Franklin Sousley from Hilltop

> Kentucky. A fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. His best friend, who is now 70, told

> me, "Yeah, you know, we took two cows up on the porch of the Hilltop

> General

> Store. Then we strung wire across the stairs so the cows couldn't get

down.

> Then we fed them Epsom salts. Those cows crapped all night." Yes he was a

> fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. Franklin died on Iwo Jima at the age of 19.

> When the telegram came to tell his mother that he was dead, it went to the

> Hilltop General Store. A barefoot boy ran that telegram up to his mother's

> farm. The neighbors could hear her scream all night and into the morning.

> The neighbors lived a quarter of a mile away.

> The next guy, as we continue to go around the statue is my dad, John

> Bradley

> from Antigo, Wisconsin, where I was raised. My dad lived until

> 1994, but he would never give interviews. When Walter Cronkite's

producers,

> or the New York Times would call, we were trained as little kids to say,

> "No, I'm sorry sir, my dad's not here. He is in Canada fishing. No, there

> is

> no phone there, sir. No, we don't know when he is coming back."

> My dad never fished or even went to Canada. Usually, he was sitting there

> right at the table eating his Campbell's soup. But we had to tell the

press

> that he was out fishing. He didn't want to talk to the press. You see, my

> dad didn't see himself as a hero. Everyone thinks these guys are heroes,

> 'cause they are in a photo and a monument. My dad knew better. He was a

> medic. John Bradley from Wisconsin was a caregiver. In Iwo Jima he

probably

> held over 200 boys as they died. And when boys died in Iwo Jima, they

> writhed and screamed in pain.

> When I was a little boy, my third grade teacher told me that my dad was a

> hero. When I went home and told my dad that, he looked at me and said, "I

> want you always to remember that the heroes of Iwo Jima are the guys who

> did

> not come back. Did NOT come back."

> So that's the story about six nice young boys. Three died on Iwo Jima, and

> three came back as national heroes. Overall 7000 boys died on Iwo Jima in

> the worst battle in the history of the Marine Corps. My voice is giving

> out,

> so I will end here. Thank you for your time."

> Suddenly, the monument wasn't just a big old piece of metal with a flag

> sticking out of the top. It came to life before our eyes with the

heartfelt

> words of a son who did indeed have a father who was a hero. Maybe not a

> hero

> for the reasons most people would believe, but a hero none-the-less.

> We need to remember that God created this vast and glorious world for us

> live in, freely, but also at great sacrifice. Let us never forget from the

> Revolutionary War to the Gulf War and all the wars in-between that

> sacrifice

> was made for our freedom. Remember to pray praises for this great country

> of

> ours and also pray for those still in murderous unrest around the world.

Steven Dzupin <sdzupin@optonline.net>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:31:45 (ZULU)

Steve; at last, something we all can agree on! Thank you.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:43:21 (ZULU)

Long time lurker first time poster. I am looking for an eagle smra shooting mat rifle case. Sniper Country PX and Eagle are out of stock . Does anyone know where I can find one. thanks Dan H.

Dan H. <hogans@cmc.net>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:44:08 (ZULU)

'Lito, I done told you the womens like me cause of that heavy contour Palma barrel I bring to the shooting matches.

Hawgette ? Whadaya mean Hawgette ? Well, shit.

Oh well, at least me bitch mate in London will be 'appy for that bloody piece o' breaking news.

I'm taking my ball and going home ... not.

Later dudes ... gotta call CDC about knife stuff.

GET OFF THE DAMN PHONE DAN ! (love this edit feature)

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 02:15:06 (ZULU)

All this talk about threat assessment and knives draws me back to a road trip of a few years ago. After completing a three week climbing trip with my wife to Washington and British Columbia and dropping her at the airport to fly home(I work for myself and she doesn't have as much vacation as I do-funny how that works) I started driving back to Virginia. About 2:00 AM in southern Idaho I pulled into a rest area to sleep after 14 hours on the road. As I got out of the van with the dogs(labs) I noticed a guy standing at the door to the mens bathroom . He only had a t-shirt on despite temps that were cool enough for me to grab a jacket before taking the dogs for a leak. Ten minutes later when I was putting the dogs back in the van so I could go to the bathroom the guy was still standing outside the door so I stuffed my pistol in my pants (yes it was a 1911). Moments after picking a stall the outside door to the bathroom opened and the crunch crunch of sand between his shoes and the tile floor told me he stopped in front of the stall I was in. I sat there thinking about the situation long enough for my legs to start going to sleep- better get up now or I won't be able to. I pulled the pistol from the holster and threw my jacket over it and my forearm in case JQ Public was just standing there minding his business when the stall door opened. My last thought before reaching for the latch-" this is not an IPSC match where you can try the door 5 times before the buzzer, you have to get it right the first time. As the door opened I'm sure my eyes got reeaaal big. The guy was standing there pants down to his knees with his unit in one hand and a knife in the other! He says "move on back in there I've got something for you". Then it was time for his eyes to get big- I pulled my jacket back ,exposing the pistol. I told him to drop the knife and move away from the door. The adrenalin rush let me keep driving for another couple hours. Not an experience I would like to repeat!

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 02:19:20 (ZULU)

Gents,

Strange day off...planned to go to the range, but wound up cleaning the house and getting out, so it could be shown...did manage some bedding work on my .300 Winnie the Pooh Magnum this evening. Another couple weeks and I'll have the stock shaped, sanded, and finished. Then testing. Will put my Luppie MK 4 16X on it. If it shoots the scope goes to Premier Reticle for a Mil-dot Gen II update.

Big Decision! Have decided to have George Gardner build me a .338 Lapua. Yeah, I'm nut's, but gotta have one. Means I'm selling my SAKO Model 995 Single shot .338 Lapua. Go to the Emporium for details. It's a great deal for a starter gun.

Back to work tomorrow. Fun and games...never a dull moment with this crew.

All for now...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 02:49:00 (ZULU)

Wes - Incoming E-Mail............

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 04:28:27 (ZULU)

Brian:

I spoke to the folks at HS Precision, with the Remington DM using the HS DM (it is center feed) hardware it will work with the BDL stock. The AW AI stock for the Remington 700 SA I belive it is a center feed DM.

------

When is someone going to come up with a bolt action upper for a AR-15? It would be a good move for us Californians!

Alton

Alton <altona@thegrid.net>
California, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 04:32:31 (ZULU)

Chris, AI threaded Barrels are a Metric M-2 thread ( close to 12 pitch) , Basicly the same as a Mauser but with a 1 3/4 barrel Tennon. If the barrel were not fluted you could chop off the threads and re-do, as you said. just cleaning the threeads does not leave enough meat. they will work on a Winchester which uses a 1" shank. Or a Mauser or SAKO.

George Out

George Gardner <a10xrifle@aol.com>
N.Kansas City, MO, 64116 - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:02:16 (ZULU)

Alton,

I think the closest your going to see to the bolt AR-15 is the Tubb 2000. You can check it out at: http://www.zediker.com/tubb/tubbgun.html

Later,

P.S. - I almost forgot, the 2000 is the match rifle and the 2000T is the tactical version.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:21:18 (ZULU)

Lito

On of the trick the "salts" taught us in the 60's with a goverment issue GI holster was to raise the 1911 up about 11/2 inchs, turn it sideways so the sight faced inward toward your leg push down and when you pulled it up from the holster it was cocked and loaded.

This is when the USMC had us carrying rds only in the mag and not in the chamber. amoungst other tricks of surivial we were taught.

this could be done quickly and allowed you to present a loaded 1911 ready to run with very little slow down considering the holster we had to use.

Our Plt Sgt was a Philippine HUK before he joined the corps He was full of very good information Korea Vet, WWII Vet,and then went on to be a early Viet Nam vet. Yes he came home.

Company Gunny Kirk rotated between Force recon and Field Grunt every 2- 3 years, something about you could only spend so much time in Force Recon then you had to rotate out to be able to raise your cutting score for promotion.

These Pros provided information/training to keep you alive and complete your mission. teaching us stuff that wasn't in any field manual.

PC WASN'T A CONCERN THEN, SURVIVING THE ENCOUNTER WAS THE CONCERN.

I hope the kids are getting this type of training today, but I doubt it.

Semper Fi

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:28:32 (ZULU)

Moe, last I talked to the AMU Skunk Works guy he had a 6mm and 6.5mm built on a 5.56 case, and a .30 Remington necked to 7mm.

Kev, "AMEN, Brother!" Your basement range would be the envy of darned near the entire Roster if they ever saw it (I'm impressed!).

TorF, I've been researching the 6.5 x 55 for a while, and have been keeping an eye open for a Swedish Mauser with the match iron sights. I'm sure someone bought one of the primo target rifles, put it away in a closet, and is willing to take half what he paid for it. I'm thinking if it does close to what a 6.5 x 284 does without me having to form brass it will be a bargain.

Pat, Emil Praslick at the AMU shot a 600 yard 200-16X at Oak Ridge (I think) last season with a 6-250 in an AR-10T. Was going to shoot it across the course, but the butt was just too dang long for him to get comfortable with in different positions and that project just kinda died on the vine.

Art, in my command we'd have teams go on six-week alert cycle, expending large amounts of ammo in sustainment training. The result of coming off the alert cycle was every soldier turning in his M9 for a brand new one, since the old one would be trash (exactly your experience, I'm sure).

Jaeger, at the Rio in 569 until Friday morning. Nothing from 0900 to 1200, then free from 1400 to about 1700 (then locked up til 2300 and we fly out Friday). I've not shot a Baker Special, so I can't comment. I have used a (stock, wood) Marksman and like it on a Model 70.

Marc, if the users get off their duffs and really want a 6.5, they'll get ammo in the system. Most units across the entire Army don't know how to shoot their 7.62s well enough to know the difference. Just because it's not the current round doesn't mean it couldn't be. Look at a standard US infantry or armor division today: the ammo supply system has to maintain HUNDREDs of ammo lines just to conduct plain vanilla operations (let's see... 5.56 in bandos; 5.56 in 4-1 belts; 7.62 in 4-1 belts; 7.62 M118, M852, or 118LR; .50 cal 4-1 belts; 9mm; 60mm in HE, WP, and illum; 81mm in HE, WP, and illum; 105mm in HE, WP, and illum; 120 in HEAT, HE, and sabot; 155 in HE, WP, and illum; MLRS rockets; 25mm for Bradley chain guns; 30mm for Apache chain guns; TOWs; Dragons or Javelins; frag grenades; star clusters and parachute flares; Hellfires; 2.75s; Claymores; AT-4s (the LAW replacement); 40mm for Mark 19s; Stingers; smoke discharger grenades; etc, etc, etc not counting all the other exotics like the stuff for engineers and chemical units).

Even the 45-70 you like to shoot was still in the system into the 70's (in the Navy/DODIC system for firing pull-across lines between ships for underway replenishments).

Adding a 6.5, 300, or 338 line is child's play.

I think a lot of the pie fights on this board could be cleared up over burnt beef and beer like used to happen after the Storm Mountain shoots (where guys were either happy or sheepish over the day's results, but the COMMON experience of a tough day was the base line).

Brian, someone once told me Cooper's color system reflected the color of his boxers as he progressed from calm to gunfight.

Steve, I've only fired the 175s in my AR-10T, so am not a good source (Titan?).

Sinister Dave <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:29:41 (ZULU)

Quick knife service comment:

I purchased a used Emerson knife off of the emporium. It had a broken tip and was pretty dull. I sent it off to Emerson to get fixed

I got it back within a week and it looked brand friggin new. They replaced the clip, screws, and completely re-did the blade.

It looked so good I thought that they just sent me a new knife, but the 1999 date on the blade made me think that unless they have a bin of 1999 blades that they actually re-ground the blade and overhauled the knife.

When I encounter great service I think that it is important to mention it. I was very impressed! All of this for $15 including shipping!

Brian, keep your comments and observations coming, they preserve my sanity during a challenging work week!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:19:39 (ZULU)

Bill, the broken slide issue was directed at Joe M. The affected pistols are a run of Springfield stainless.......1911's!

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:35:33 (ZULU)

852,

I checked on how M24 receivers are finished at Remington and got this reply from Fred Martin, who was the engineer behind the M24 development.

Marc, Receivers are white as is the barrel and barrel bracket, assembled and

Micro-Bond as a unit look close at the barrel bracket there is not supposed to

be any crak or groove at the barrel, bracket, receiver junction. If there is you

have poor powder coat or someone is tweeking the barrel you would also bable to

see vise marks on the barrel/receiver and probably some powder coat cracking on

the bracket...................Later Fred

Marc

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:39:55 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a thread at ARFCOM with some enlightening pics.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=156163&page=1

Or click on my name.

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:48:27 (ZULU)

Are any others receiving a ton of spam email and viruses over the last week? I used to get about 20-25 a day, and it is now 100+ Agrhhh!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 07:23:13 (ZULU)

Steve - In you AR-10A4 the barrel twist is a 1-12. Only the "T" model comes with the 1-11.25 twist. I shoot a variety of stuff in mine because with the 20" tube you are hard pressed to get to 1000 accuately even with the 175's. 800 is as far I would push it. To get their you would need very hot hand loads and that is not good for these things. I shoot alot of the 168's because I can get it cheaper than the 175's. If you hand load try the Nosler Balastic tips in the 165's. I really like these because they fly like the MK 175's and get their a little quicker. I have had good results with the good surplus stuff as well, but it varies soo much you have to look at each case, and if you can get a sample to shoot. Contact me via email and I will give you more detailed info.

Sinister - I heard the same thing about Copper's colors..........May be some truth too it after all.

General question for you 6.5 guys?????? What brand and type of bullets are giving you guys these high bc's over .600????

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 08:55:54 (ZULU)

GEOFF; SORRY, I saw those pix you directed too. Maybe we could design a pistol using tupperwear that wouldn't do that? I thought you meant it was that new 40 thing obviously. All these new designs and metals is bound to produce some problems I guess.

I wouldn't want to find out about that one the hard way.

MIchael; So am I, it's pathetic. My delete key is about worn out.

Dave; You speak a lot of truth, in fact you may be a clear and present enemy of BS. I wish we could just have a big barbeque but what we do after that? I hate the simple life and there are no more buffalo much.

ON the CALIF bolt gun. Bill Wylde has been shooting something like that for many years also and winning and winning so I know it works but Tubbs and he have their reasons. I'm not sure its worth fooling with for just a law problem. I think Bill would build you anything like that you'd want but it would not be cheap to do or quick. The new California receivers with no removable clip negate the need actually. The way I read it. No removable clip, no restriction, you can put a collapsable stock or any other forbidden feature on em if they don't have a removable clip. Sometimes I think the varmint application would negate the need for a removable clip anyway.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 08:57:52 (ZULU)

Steve from Joisey,

You're a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you for your efforts with kids and for sharing that story. I borrowed it, to print and take home to my son. I hope you don't mind.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 09:55:33 (ZULU)

George,

Thank you. I figure I'll pass on these barrels,,, Remington actions are much easier to get,, and the stocks are more available right now anyway.

FatBoy...

Gents,

Brian, missed your earlier post on color codes. Have to admit you have some good points, but believe we are argueing semantics. Red or Black makes little difference. What IS important is that you make sure you are justified in use of deadly force. I train to do that in "orange" before going to "red". If you train to use "red" as the final assessment, that's fine. It does quantify that you are justified in using deadly force. I should note that even in "go/red" you are watching for changes in the situation.

Ain't the wild west any more...

0430 and still can't get to sleep...damn.

Later, oops, earlier, gents.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 11:39:20 (ZULU)

Titan,

BC's on the 6.5 come close to .600. I use Sierra 142 grain Match Kings exclusively in my 6.5 X .284. The factory states a BC of .595 for that bullet above 2,850 FPS and of course that tapers off as velocity drops.

The big .30's (220 and 240 grain) go above .600 and the 300 grain .338 Match King goes over .700.

Don't get to hung up on BC's. The factories tend to be "generous" in their estimations. Find a good bullet that shoots for your intended purpose...smile and be happy.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 11:57:35 (ZULU)

Ref: BC's

Me thinks the Lapua Scenar 139 grain in 6.5mm has a BC of .615. That is the round I'm going to try first when my new stick is done.......what time is it anyway?

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 12:09:39 (ZULU)

Kevin,

FYI, Sinclair has 142SMK's on sale during month of December. $88 per 500. Good price.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 12:32:19 (ZULU)

Mark Palmer,

I have a Winchester 1885 Hi Wall in 40-70 Ballard. I think BP rifles would make good sniper rifles --- You know like when the Ninja has done his thing and then disappears in a puff of smoke.

Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <grimm@atlantic.net>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 12:55:11 (ZULU)

Jerry,

Black Powder as a sniper rifle?? Maybe,, you'd have time to pick up and move before the round got to the target ;))

Berger's advertized BC for the .264" 140VLD is .627. I'd have to see it to beleive it,, but that's what they say.

The 142SMK is all I've used in my 6.5,, and it's worked so well I don't see why I'd want to pay $5 to $10 more per box for something else. I've used about 7 lots of 142's and have had NO change in zero or performance from one to the next. I do notice the bullets change in length a bit form one lot to the next,, but they all perfrom the same with no adjustments to the load.

Oh,, and that has held true for the H4831SC I've been using also... I'm on can number 5, different lots, no noticable change in zero's or POA/POI at distance.

Oh yeah,, it seems the first shot zero for 1K being off has not reared it's ugly head the last three matches. All I can figure is that I've been leaving the scope on it's 1K zero and not dialing back down to the 100 yard zero when the day is through. Looks like it may be a scope issue huh,,,,

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 13:07:28 (ZULU)

Dave..

Thanks for the up dates on the 6-250s. I had talked to Emil through e.mails when I was looking at the 6.5x284, very knowlegable and a fine gentleman to talk to.

Titan..

I see the "Crew" has already answered you questions on the 6.5s BCs and I agree with Chris. I have never shot any Burgers but have seen them advertised with a .640 BC. The early AMAXs were also rated with a 6.5 BC but they came apart in a 260 so I know they would never survive in a 6.5x284.

The first box I bought I was shooting in the .1s and .2s with them at 100 and 200yds but what I soon realized was that after about the third group in the .1s or .2s (I just knew in my heart that I wasn't really that good off a bench even though I wanted to belive it so bad!!)(HA)Was that half of the bullets weren't making it to the target!!!

I called Hornady and they said, "Well, yea, maybe thats possible, but we can't say for sure but we are changing to a new bullet". They didn't want to admit they had a problem.

Sain..

Are you really sure you want to be a "Hawg"??? Maybe you should take some meds and rethink the issue. If you still want to be one after the medication then your probably qualified.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 13:37:35 (ZULU)

Wes: Gotcha. We're on the same page bro. How's the carpal tunnel ?

Coopers brithces - Sinister: lmao but now that I think about it, that has been my experience too.

SHITTY WET SUIT:

Cold down here (for down here). Buddy of mine went duck hunting. Had a full wet suit on under his waders.

Had to go. Bad.

CRAPPED IN PLACE !!!

By the end of the hunt, shit was squishing out of the wrist cuffs.

I cannot imagine ... lmao.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 13:48:43 (ZULU)

Grasshopper, got the disk. Thank you very much. Cant wait to get caught up on slings so I can have a marathon sniper watching event.

Dave, damm cant call you that, you earned the title Col. or Sir. I would love to see us get a place we could get something like the old Storm Mountain Matches going again. Mid point in the uS would be great, that way no one would have that long haul. We could all travel a little ways. Sarge I think is working at something. As usual you make alot of sense. That must have been hard sharing your brothers story with us. I only mety your brother once but damm nice guy for sure.Tell him Im still waiting for that department against department match, but it would not be the first time I was beat.

Kevin, a basement 50 yard range? Your living right? Ill bring the beer for after.

Bill Rogers Grump? You? Damm that picture of the SS Springfield made me wonder. I have never seen that before. The slide looked like a casting to me. I was told they were forged slides from Springfield, but the metal did not look forged the way it broke. Anyone with more info?

I picked up 3000 Speer 190 grain 30 cal Match bullets. Price was too good to pass up. Going to work a load for my 300WSM and cant find the BC for this bullet anywhere. Anyone have the BC from an old manual anywhere?

A little joke. A famous Michael J.(not wanting to be sued) was talking with his boyfriend. The boyfreind says "I am leaving"

Michael responded "Why, we have such good times. We talk. We share our feelings and the sex is the best either of us has had" The boyfriend responded " I found out your a pedafile" Michael responded "Pedifile thats a big word for a six year old"

Undude/Mike

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 14:16:02 (ZULU)

Have any of you folks had problems with mis-fires using CCI 7.62mm #34 primers?

Have recently run into about a 60% failure to fire first strike.

Thanks

timberbeast <bmerrihew@fs.fed.us>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 14:39:10 (ZULU)

Dan H. On the Eagle mat, you might try www.lightfighter.com

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Ice and Snow Country, MN, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:10:45 (ZULU)

brian k. sain HAWGETTE!!!

better get your pink frilly buttfloss thingy on ,cause it looks like it's my turn on top! HA!

Oh Dear, the thought of Brian in that pink thing has just conjured up an image that didn't EVER want in my head... I am now officially "unwell".

Alton

Not sure if it's any help but over here we can't have semi autos unless it's a .22 (rimfire). We use AR15's with no gas system. (can't even have the hole in the barrel!)Southern Gun Company over here (http://www.southern-gun.co.uk) make a modified straight pull upper. There is a cocking handle screwed onto the bolt carrier and the ejection port is milled out to allow a longer pull so you don't have to use the T handle to cock it. They also mill a slot in the left hand side and fit a captive cocking handle there which mates with a milled recess in the front left of the bolt carrier. The left hand side is REAL quick when shooting off a bipod. (Almost up to semi auto speeds with a bit of practice.) Prices would be expensive by US standards but the concept is worth a look. Also I seem to remember seeing something from Parker Hale ( before their demise)that looked like a bolt action upper on an AR lower.

Mark D

Mark Dougan <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:15:22 (ZULU)

Mike; when I saw that picture my first thought was, "I thought they had forged slides?" It sure looks cast. Stainless may just look different. That would be bad some late night in China Town.

A-max bullets- are pretty thin skinned. Just thinking outloud but Hornady is the company that gave us SX bullets. They would kill coyotes like a 30-06 but would blow up at about 3400 and above or be torn to demolish with fast twist rates like in a Ruger Ranch Rifle in stainless barrel. The A max is a little more apt to survive high speeds than the SX series but the kindred is there. With thin jackets the bullets seem to shoot more accurate so I'm thinking that A-max is a trade off between accuracy and good Bal. coef. brought on by the plastic nose cone and elongated design. The .30 cal had to be reshaped due to their getting a little carried away with sharp nose affect. The Bal coef. wasn't rerated that I ever saw. IT just stayed the same and how that was accomplished musts be the best kept secret at Hornady.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:17:38 (ZULU)

That is quite enough out of you young man. ha.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:22:53 (ZULU)

Sorry for this long post but this is one of the funniest jokes I have seen in a while:

Texas Chili

If you can read the whole story without tears of laugher running down your cheeks, then there's no hope for you.

NOTE: Please take time to read this slowly. If you pay attention to the first two judges, the reaction of the third is even better.

For those of you who have lived in Texas, you know how true this is.

They actually have a Chili cook-off about the time the rodeo comes to town. It takes up a major portion of the parking lot at the Astrodome. The notes are from an inexperienced chili taster named Frank, who was visiting Texas from the East Coast:

Frank: "Recently, I was honored to be selected as a judge at a chili cook-off. The original person called in sick at the last moment and I happened to be standing there at the judge's table asking directions to the Budweiser truck, when the call came in. I was assured by the other two judges (Native Texans) that the chili wouldn't be all that spicy and, besides, they told me I could have free beer during the tasting, So I accepted."

Here are the scorecards from the event:

Chili # 1 Mike's Maniac Mobster Monster Chili -- Judge #1 A little too heavy on the tomato. Amusing kick. Judge # 2 - Nice, smooth tomato flavor. Very mild Judge # 3 (Frank) Holy shit, what the hell is this stuff? You could remove dried paint from your driveway. Took me two beers to put the flames out. I hope that's the worst one. These Texans are crazy.

Chili # 2 Arthur's Afterburner Chili -- Judge # 1 - Smoky, with a hint of pork. Slight jalapeno tang. Judge # - 2 Exciting BBQ flavor, needs more peppers to be taken seriously. Judge # 3 - Keep this out of the reach of children. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to taste besides pain. I had to wave off two people who wanted to give me the Heimlich maneuver. They had to rush in more beer when they saw the look on my face.

Chili # 3 Fred's Famous Burn Down the Barn Chili -- Judge # 1 - Excellent firehouse chili. Great kick. Needs more beans. Judge # 2 - A beanless chili, a bit salty, good use of peppers. Judge # 3 -- Call the EPA. I've located a uranium spill. My nose feels like I have been snorting Drano. Everyone knows the routine by now. Get me more beer before I ignite. Barmaid pounded me on the back, now my backbone is in the front part of my chest. I'm getting shit-faced from all of the beer.

Chili # 4 Bubba's Black Magic -- Judge # 1 - Black bean chili with almost no spice. Disappointing. Judge # 2 - Hint of lime in the black beans. Good side dish for fish or other mild foods, not much of a chili. Judge # 3 - I felt something scraping across my tongue, but was unable to taste it. Is it possible to burn out taste buds? Sally, the barmaid, was standing behind me with fresh refills. That 300-lb. bitch is starting to look HOT -- just like this nuclear waste I'm eating. Is chili an aphrodisiac?

Chili # 5 Linda's Legal Lip Remover -- Judge # 1 - Meaty, strong chili. Cayenne peppers freshly ground, adding considerable kick. Very impressive. Judge # 2 - Chili using shredded beef, could use more tomato. Must admit the cayenne peppers make a strong statement. Judge # 3 - My ears are ringing, sweat is pouring off my forehead and I can no longer focus my eyes. I farted and four people behind me needed paramedics. The contestant seemed offended when I told her that her chili had given me brain damage. Sally saved my tongue from bleeding by pouring beer directly on it from the pitcher. I wonder if I'm burning my lips off. It really pisses me off that the other judges asked me to stop screaming. Screw those rednecks.

Chili # 6 Vera's Very Vegetarian Variety! Judge # 1 - Thin yet bold vegetarian variety chili. Good balance of spices and peppers. Judge # 2 - The best yet. Aggressive use of peppers, onions, and garlic. Superb. Judge # 3 - My intestines are now a straight pipe filled with gaseous, sulfuric flames. I shit myself when I farted and I'm worried it will eat through the chair. No one seems inclined to stand behind me except that slut Sally. She must be kinkier than I thought. Can't feel my lips anymore. I need to wipe my ass with a snow cone.

Chili # 7 Susan's Screaming Sensation Chili Judge # 1 -- A mediocre chili with too much reliance on canned peppers. Judge # 2 -- Ho hum, tastes as if the chef literally threw in a can of chili peppers at the last moment. I should take note that I am worried about Judge # 3. He appears to be in a bit of distress as he is cursing uncontrollably. Judge # 3 - You could put a grenade in my mouth, pull the pin, and I wouldn't feel a thing. I've lost sight in one eye, and the world sounds like it is made of rushing water. My shirt is covered with chili which slid unnoticed out of my mouth. My pants are full of lava-like shit to match my shirt. At least during the autopsy, they'll know what killed me. I've decided to stop breathing, its too painful. Screw it, I'm not getting any oxygen anyway. If I need air, I'll just suck it in through the 4-inch hole in my stomach.

Chili #8 Tommy's Toe-Nail Curling Chili Judge # 1 - The perfect ending, this is a nice blend chili. Not too bold but spicy enough to declare its existence. Judge # 2 -- This final entry is a good, balance chili. Neither mild nor hot. Sorry to see that most of it was lost when Judge # 3 passed out, fell over and pulled the chili pot down on top of himself. Not sure if he's going to make it. Poor dude, wonder how he'd have reacted to really hot chili.

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
NE, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:28:04 (ZULU)

John in B'town,

I got the package, thanks!!!!

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:56:45 (ZULU)

Robert H..

ROFLMAO!! Could you e.mail me a copy of that?? I am not smart enough to sort if off of here, thanks!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 16:29:20 (ZULU)

Brian and all,

Great memory, Brian. Except for a small scar from the carpal tunnel operation I'm fine. Will never regain all the strength in my middle two fingers. The GOOD NEWS is that my trigger finger is fine...;-)

Not sure the operation did that much good. Except to take the pain away.

Now if I can just get my 51 year old body in for rework...:-0

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:05:21 (ZULU)

Had an interesting experience at the Sacramento match last weekend. A guy wanting to get into high power rifle was asking my opinion on email about what rifle to buy. I don't know much about rifle models, I only have two that are worth a damn past 200 yards because I came late to the game. But I offered up what I knew from other's experience (eg: stay away from the PSS), and offered to share my AT1-C24 if he thought he was up to our match. He accepted the offer and I threw some extra handloads in the gym bag.

The guy shows up a bit late, just barely in time to go out with the first relay. He gets an abbreviated safety lecture from the match coordinator, and I give him about 30 seconds of coaching on rested prone position, how to use my dope card, how to read the knobs on the B&L tactical, etc., and off he goes. (Whoops, forgot to tell him where the magazine release is. Oh, well, he'll probably figure it out.)

I'm watching his target as I'm pulling mine in the pits. I can tell his 200 yard shots have 100 yard dope on, the 300 yard isn't much better. By 500 yards, though, he's starting to get the hang of it. (Turns out he never did find the mag release, he's single-feeding the rounds.) 600, 800, 900 yards, he's still hanging in there. At 1000 yards he puts three cold shots in the B27 scoring area his first time out. Do you know how many months it took me to get three scoring shots at 1K??

Final score, the newbie brings in about 225 points to my 250. (I hate light wind, I'm better at calling a steady blow.) At least he didn't beat me with my own rifle, but now I gotta ask myself: how much of my success (such as it is) is just due to good equipment? Oh, well, the new kid is totally jazzed about tactical shooting now, I think he's hooked.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:21:17 (ZULU)

WES: Yeah, wife says I got a pornographic memory.

It's a curse.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:38:20 (ZULU)

>>>>>I would love to see us get a place we could get something like the old Storm Mountain Matches going again. Mid point in the uS would be great, that way no one would have that long haul. We could all travel a little ways.<<<<

I am trying to get something together at Ft McCoy(Wisconsin) like what you describe. I was trying to see if there any interest, I got three responses. I take it you would be interested too? I'd like to get a good handle on numbers ASAP because I'm working on getting helo support(no BS) and the helo unit would need numbers for lift. I'm looking at late April 03 for a long weekend (Fri-Sun) S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:45:51 (ZULU)

Thanks guys for the 6.5 bullet info. Maybe a .260 down the road for the oldest daughter.

Fat one - isn't that a nightforce scope you are shooting??

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:48:14 (ZULU)

Chris,

oops, George covered it.. Yep, youse can only go to a smaller diameter on the threads, the AI's are imperially challenged threads, and if you turned the diameter down youse would be stuck with going to, I ain't a gonna say Ruu, Ruuug, no, Winchester..

But, how far back are the flutes again?

who dese mystery el cheapo barrels from, anyway, c'mon, I won't tell...

Brian,

Yer lucky I've got the NHS, otherwise I'd be sendin you a bill for the re-stitching of me sides, ya crazy shit.. Keep em comin, hawg..

Robert H,

way too funny.. good stuff

Hey,

someone mentioned something about boots developing the 338 Lapua? not sure about that, but did you know he was on a project concerning the 8mm Mag sniper round with Remington during the Gulf War? hmmm, 8mm, in betweenie the 338 and 308, hmm...

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:19:10 (ZULU)

Alton:

Besides the fixed mag recievers that Brogers mentioned there is a pump action AR made by DPMS.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/products/p_pump_rifle.html

LTChip
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:39:04 (ZULU)

Dear Lord.....my wife was standing behind me when I read the chili post, she said she had more fun watching me than reading the story. Now I think I've damaged something internal...that was hilarious!

Chris, I think you're being too hard on yourself. From where I was sitting, both of yours looked to be the same size. Of course, since we weren't alone, I had to be discreet, so I could have missed something. It was good meeting you. By the way, if anybody is thinking of going up Chris's way, he pays for lunch. Too bad we didn't get to burn any Varget, but I had a 16-hour trip back to San Antonio, we'll try it again another time. God knows I could have used the time out, though, after spending Thanksgiving with a psycologist and a lawyer for relatives......oy.

Anyone know who makes the barrels Howa uses?

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:45:32 (ZULU)

Ken M.,

That might be a month too late for me to play. But First week of January I will start my "office calls" here to get the ball rolling on my end. On Liability issues, Linda F., at PAO is pretty good about smoothing things over with the JAG-weenies. Should be pretty straight forward coordinations. I brought in a bunch of High School kids for a demo-demo (chuckle). If I can pull that off, this crew ought to be easy to get on the ranges! I gather you'll want a helicopter LZ too. That is way cool. I'll check the schedules while I am at it--might be a MLRS shoot in April--always a good show on either end. Heheh. I'll email you summaries of what I find out by 15 January...

Geoff,

Thanks for the tip on the springfatigues, err, 'fields. That isn't remotely what I want for a few bucks savings'. My wife wouldn't appreciate that at all...and Kuwait ain't far enough to hide from her wrath. Better to just go Kimber...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:51:35 (ZULU)

Ken M.

Add two more to the Ft.McCoy gig in April. Sounds great.

Late in the summer of 1978 I was at Ft.McCoy with my battalion from the 101st. This story should have started with "this is no shit". I was the Battalion S-3 Air at the time and there wasn't a lot for me to do but I had an OH-58 and plenty of JP4 so I stayed out of the Battalion Headquarters doing recons of training areas most of the time. One day it seemed like a good idea to go see a place called The Dells. As it turns out a taxpayer called in the tail number and as Ricky Ricardo would say,"I had some splaining to do."

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:56:42 (ZULU)

Charles S Hunt: Oy, indeed. Aren't Howa barrels made by Howa in Japan?

Ken M: Late April? Won't you be on an all expense paid vacation about then?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 19:10:59 (ZULU)

Robert..

Thank you!!

Grasshopper..

Wait until he tries it on his own without your dope. Then it will be a different story. I have taken people out to shoot with my guns and put all the data on the scope then let them shoot. They think that theres not much to it.(HA)

Ken M..

Where is Camp McCoy?? I am sure you could count me and my son in. What type of shoot are we talking about??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 19:21:28 (ZULU)

Grasshopper,

I took a guy that had never shot at 1K before and called his wind adjustmenst or holds for him. He shot a 192 at 1K his first time out with my 308. With my wife,, I dialed in wind, as she didn't even know how to load the rifle, and she shot a 195 at 1K.

IMO having good equipment is a definate plus, but having good dope for that equipment, either layed out in a data book or being called as from a spotter, is the key to success. Pulling the trigger, while rested on a bipod is only a small part of the equasion.

The thing I like most about letting new shooters use my stuff,, they do well and they come back. THAT is what's important.. you did a good thing.

Titan,

Yes, it's a 3.5x15x50 NXS. When I get around to stripping the rifle down for the season I'll send it back to Nightforce and see what they have to say. There are some predicatibility issues with the tracking also,, but it's repeatable if you have the dope. I only run into problems with zero when I take her up a couple turns, wind is a factor no matter what elevation I'm at but it's a starnge probelm and hard to explain. It doesn't shifts on the way up but shifts right when you turn it back down,, doing a 3l,6u,6u,3r,3r,6d,6d,3l, moa track test. We'll see how it comes back from NF. If it's the same old same old,, I'll just leave it set at 1K and leave it on the rifle for the wife. It'll hold a zero without fault once it's there,, so it works for a dedicated 1K rifle.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 19:38:44 (ZULU)

Ref: Ft.McCoy

185 miles from Milwaukee

170 miles from St.Paul

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 20:03:23 (ZULU)

WR MOORE,

Funny Thing, I remember posting somthing about the Glock "problem" a few weeks ago and NOBODY seemed to think it was important.........

Theres a 1-800 number you can call for over the phone verification via SN ranges.

Mine came back "clean" after a call on Vets Day.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 20:39:31 (ZULU)

Ken M-

Sign me up for the McCoy match (I also sent you an email).

everyone-

The cajin color codes & the chili story have been the funniest stuff I've read on the DR & I've been lurking/reading for 3+ years. Good Stuff!!!

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 20:50:31 (ZULU)

Chris,

ON letting new shooters use your good equipement....I sure have caused several friends to spend LOTS of money gearing up after using different rifles of mine, most notably the Preban SR25 with Mk4.

Louis <SToner25MKIV@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 21:37:40 (ZULU)

PeteR' nobody knew you!! You don't post often enough. They Thought you might be a spy or something.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 21:52:28 (ZULU)

Ft. McCoy;

Will this be a military shoot or can we all attend? I would like to do it. My birthday is April 2, so it would be a cool birthday if we did it that weekend.

Can we bring guest? I have a brother who was with the 82d ABN, I bet he would love it.

Jacko,

Be careful what you say about The Jacko. It might hurt his feelings. I, however, found it very amusing. Sometimes I wonder why lightning doesn't strike people like he,she,it-shit.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 22:29:50 (ZULU)

Damn what a mess down here is ice castle land! Duke Power says we had over a million people without power today and that this shit is worse that during Hurrican Hugo OR the great ice storm of 1996. Charlotte even made the national boob tube news. Had to crank the generator up this morning, but fer sum reeson the puter do not lak generator power. Had to wait for the real power to come back on to make a post. Gonna have to throw the chain saw in the nasty old evironmentally unfriendly SUV just to get to work again tomorrow.

Got my shooting coat from Creedmore today. Cleaned 20 fishing reels to pay for this thing but is sure is purty. They sent a size 44 and I have a bra size of 45. This sucka is tight as Dick's hatband, however tight that is. I can tell now why these things are so miserable suring the summer. Now to figure out how to hook up the sling thingie and I'll be in business. Wish I lived closer to Sinister.

Before the pistol thing finally peters out, is anyone familiar with the police model Smith 40 cals? They are selling the police trade-ins at a local weapons of mass construction establishment for the poultry sum of $250. Some look brand new with very little obvious barrel wear. EMAIL ME OFF THE ROSTER SO THE PISTOL POOP WON'T GET STARTED AGAIN PLEASE.

Time to hit the shop, Bolster frozen and out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 23:14:05 (ZULU)

I dug this out for you guys thinking of coming to 'sconsin.

Enjoy

Words of Wisdom from and about Wisconsin. (?)

How To Save Your Ass If You Plan To Visit Wisconsin This Summer.

Issued by the Wisconsin Tourism Bureau to ALL visitors:

1) Don't order filet mignon or pasta primavera at Al's Lodge. It's a diner. They serve breakfast 24 hours a day. Let them cook something they know. If you upset the ladies in the kitchen they'll kick your ass.

2) Don't laugh at the names of our little towns (Sheboygan, Menominee, Nekoosa, Prairie du Chien, etc.) or we will just have to kick your ass.

3) Don't order a bottle or a can of soda here. Here it's called "pop". Accept it. Doing otherwise can lead to an ass kicking.

4) We know our heritage. Most of us are more literate than you are. We are also better educated and generally a lot nicer. Don't refer to us as a bunch of hicks or we'll kick your ass.

5) We have plenty of business sense. You have to make a living here. Naturally, we do sometimes have small lapses in judgment from time to time, but we are not dumb enough to let someone move to our state in order to run for the Senate. If someone tried to do that, we would kick her ass.

6) Don't laugh at our giant fiberglass fish and cows. Anything that inspires tourists to buy 50,000 postcards can't be bad. And don't laugh at our love and pride of cheese or we'll kick your ass.

7) We are fully aware of how cold it gets here in the winter, so shut up. Just spend your money and get the hell out of here or we'll kick your ass.

8) Don't order the vegetarian special at the local diner. Everyone will instantly know that you're a tourist. Eat your steak well done like God intended and have some potatoes with that, for heaven's sake! Also, don't ask what a hot dish is or we'll kick your ass.

9) Don't try to fake a Wisconsin accent. We don't have an accent. That will incite a riot and you will get your ass kicked.

10) Don't talk about how much better things are at home because we know better. Many of us have visited big-city hellholes like Detroit, New York, and Chicago, and we have the scars to prove it. If you don't like it here, Interstate 90, 94, and 43 are ready when you are. Move your ass on home before it gets kicked.

11) Don't complain that Wisconsin has too many mosquitoes and farmland. If you whine about OUR scenic beauty we'll kick your ass all the way back to Chicago.

12) Don't ridicule our mannerisms. We only speak when spoken to. We hold doors open for others. We offer our seats to old folks because such things are expected of civilized people. Behave yourselves around our sweet, little gray-haired grandmothers or they will kick some manners into your ass just like they did ours.

13) So you think we're quaint or losers because most of us live on the farm or in the woods? That's because we have enough sense to not live in filthy, smelly, crime-infested cesspools like New York or LA. Make fun of our fresh air and we'll kick your ass.

14) Oshkosh B'gosh is NOT a joke. Your ass will be kicked.

15) The Green Bay Packers are not a joke. God created the greatest football

dynasty ever and placed it in Green Bay. Any jokes about the Packers or Vince Lombardi will result in a severe and unrelenting ass kicking.

16) If you are from Atlanta, for your own safety, say you are from somewhere else, lest you get your ass kicked. (Take three sports franchises from Milwaukee and we have a tendency to hold a grudge.)

17) If you are looking for a water fountain, you'll need to go to a park. Water comes out of bubblers here. Make a joke about it, and you guessed it, another ass kicking.

18) Sausage Races are cool. Make fun of it, and one of the Sausages will come up from the field of Miller Park and lay down a 8 foot sausage ass kicking on you.

19) The University of Wisconsin is the oldest, best school in the Big Ten.

Any jokes about the quality of UW will result in Barry Alvarez, Ron Dayne,

Dick Bennett, Bo Ryan, Pat Richter, and any able bodied UW students assisting Bucky Badger in his class, Ass-Kicking 101.

20) Last, but not least, DO NOT DARE to come out here and tell us that hunting is cruelty to animals and venison is not edible meat. This will get your ass shot (after it is kicked). Say this twice and you will go home in a pine box. Minus your ass.

Now enjoy your visit and then go home!

With all the talk of a possible match at Camp Ripley, I thought this would be fitting.

Just what type of match would this be? This old asshole just might try it.

John

John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 23:32:53 (ZULU)

Great post, John. One thing that you don't have to worry about, is someone making fun of your rifle barrels. Wisconsin cut rifled barrels rule.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 23:54:59 (ZULU)

Pat asked-"Where is camp McCoy"

Why it's right here under my ass, son...Heheh. Couldn't resist being a smart ass...but to be specific, I90 and I94 come out of Chicago seperately (one to Milwaukee, the other further west), and link up again in Madison. About 90 miles north of Madison, they split off again. The area above and between that intersection is Fort McCoy. The most convenient airport is Lacrosse, the least expensive is Minnie-St Paul or Chicago. Amtrack comes into Tomah (local 'berg) and the Buses run there too. If I am still around by then, I can send a fifteen-pax van out for trans from everywhere except Chi-town.

With the exception of Rick's ranges--the ranges here are better than most of them at Bragg. Big political bucks poured into this hole during Clinton's reign.

The billeting should be free, as long as no one minds an open bay two story WWII "theater Construction, temporary wood frame structure" that is modernized to include heat (likely) or air (yeah right). I think the many layers of paint hide the fact that the frames rotted out 50 years back! Heheh. Kevin, the coal you would remember here is gone finally, about ten years ago, they converted.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:14:30 (ZULU)

A match at Ft. McCoy?

I can't pass this up. Count me in as well.

What's the course of fire?

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:39:38 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with the shooting mats that Tactical Tailor sells. They are very reasonably priced, and I was curious if anyone had any comments about their quality. $75 is a lot cheaper that something like a SMRA from Eagle.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:48:42 (ZULU)

Ken M, Mail inbound regarding McCoy Match, NA.

Spent some time there one summer early 80's. Most of it was in the medical clinic telling reservist that the had to go back to duty and passing out big doses of penicillin for what ailed em! BTW the officers quarters were only slightly less delapidated than the enlisted digs. We did however get AC for the med clinic. One of those don't ask, don't tell arraingements.

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 01:07:19 (ZULU)

Evening Gents,

Robert: That is hands down the funniest thing I have read in quite some time. If the rest are like that, take up all the bandwith you want. DSL can handle it...

Brian: I've spent a ridiculous amount of time in a wetsuit. I cant even take a piss in one, much less pitch a loaf. The "Olympics" necessary to get into and out of a wetsuit are worth not doing that to oneself. eeeyyyaaagggghhhh. Cant even picture it. Hope the ducks were worth it to your friend. The Boss told me this one the other day...

What will a Cajun eat?

1. Anything with 2 legs thats not a person

2. Anything with 4 legs thats not a table

3. ANYTHING that lives in the water

I believe we would fry mosquitos if we could figure out a way to filet them.

Bolt: I'm sympathetic. I was in Norfolk in '96. Probably the best thing I learned about that snow-stuff was stay away from snow covered curbs. Old Dominions curbs gently sloped towards the road. Add a few inches of the cold, wet, fluffy stuff, and an invincible 21 yr old from Manchac Swamp and you get disaster in the form of said invincible Cajun-Machinist Mate 3rd class shooting out into the street. Kinda looked like going down a waterslide into oncoming traffic. All said and done, I'm happy to be back by the Swamp.

On another note, Is there such a thing as a Simunition .308 training round? If so, do they require modifications?

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 01:45:09 (ZULU)

Hey Robert H, and John...

If you're gonna paste junk you get in e-mails to the Roster... PLEASE clean it up, and take the dead space and ">>s" out so it doesn't look like shit, and take up 10 screens worth of space... P-L-E-A-S-E!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:17:28 (ZULU)

Jerry S. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Grasshopper: That was great that you let that guy use your rifle.I scored his target and he shot exellent for a first timer, hopefully he is hooked . But why did you steer him away from a PSS? Mine shoots better than I do and my partner won the match that day with a PSS, with a score of 302. Just curious Dan H.

Dan H. <hogans@cmc.net>
chico , Ca, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:24:50 (ZULU)

OK. Stoopid novice question. Again.

Ordered a stock from Bell and Carlson for a Sako Forester. Sent it back, for quality reasons not worth describing. The replacement was bad, but not AS bad. (The action and bottom metal alignment on the second stock were so far off that the action screws would not even thread into the holes.) Fixed that problem with a dremel tool (on the stock).

Going to bed it, if only to fill in big gaps. Figure first the action, then the bottom guard, then the barrell, in three separate steps. (Need to raise the guard - it is too deep.)

Question: Is there a better, easier to work with bedding compound than the Brownell's Accu-Glass, which is all I have ever used? I have read here about marine-tex or something. Is this a 2-part epoxy? Looking for something simple that I can use in steps. With the Accu-Glass, it is an all-at-once thing, and I will have to buy three kits.

Thanks for any suggestion. If this is too simple for this list, private e-mail is fine and much appreciated. Don't want to bore (boor) anyone. Thanks.

P. M. Hayden <pmhayden@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 04:01:31 (ZULU)

Dang guys, I get sent away to in-service training and miss all the fun, you guys have a spirited discussion on pistols, and the boys here at home got to go out and play without me. Two BG's in jail and one less Meth lab out here in the boonies.

Brian - have you ever had that bad-assed pepper spray fail ya. A few years ago I arrested a guy for shoplifting and assaulting the store manager who tried to stop him. Well, he didn't take to kindly to being arrested and started to resist, alot, if you know what I mean. We had just finished the training and had been issued our new shiny cans of pepper so I figured I'd give it a try in the real world. (hell, it made me cry like a friggen baby when they sprayed me in training.) I sprayed this guy until his face was orange, he licked it off of his lips and said that it tasted pretty good. Never did have an effect on him, I had to do it the old fashioned way but finally got him cuffed. Used it a number of times since then and it has worked great, but that first time was the shits.

Color-coded Conditions: Our team was called out, looking for two guys who had burned down an apartment complex that was under construction, then bragged about doing it as well as how many of us hick town cops they would take out if we tried to arrest them. We knew they were in a second floor apt. in another complex. I was the first one in the building and as I waited for the rest of the team to group behind me the BG's came down the stairs and into the hallway. I went to my knees, whipped up the AR-15 and yelled "freeze" as the guy behind me brought his shotgun into play. They both reached for the ceiling yelling "please don't shoot", it was then that I noticed that the one on the left had a dark stain on the front of his pants and a puddle forming on the floor. Would that be considered condition "yellow"? :) :)

Sorry for the bandwidth guys.

Ya'll Take Care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 09:04:55 (ZULU)

Ken M.

Emailed ya re: match. N/A.

Chase T.

.308 simunition...OUCH! Those ain't paintballs my man.

J.Hugdahl,

Wisconsin sounds friendly 'nuff. One of us is gonna have to get a nickname.

Chris, email. N/A

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 09:45:13 (ZULU)

This one is for any one of you guys. The question is, How do I maintain or should I say temporary clean bottom side of my free floating barrel without having to take the stick apart for a major maintenance ? I would appreciate any pointers.

On a none related note, did anyone hear about the new sniper movie "Sniper 2" primier on 28 Dec 02. on Cinemax? Not important, just viewing :)

Thanks

Eduardo Cotto <Eduardocotto@hotmail.com>
Bay, Michigan, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 10:09:31 (ZULU)

Eduardo,

If I suspect there's junk in the channel I take a business card and slide it under the barrel in front of the recoil jug/barrel pad and pull it out toward the muzzle. If I think I'm going to get it filled,. I'll take a piece of 550 cord gut and slip it in before leaving the truck. Then when I get to where I need to be I just grab it and pull it out the front and it's clear.

The second tip learned right here, thanks Undude.

Bell and Carson,

I'm hearing that Remington has switched over to Bell and Carson stocks for the VS models. Can anyone confirm that? That would seriously harm their worth IMHO,, as the B&C isn't even worth as much as a trade in. Not saying they are POS stocks,, but not as good as HS IMHO.

FatBoy...

Robert,

Yep. OC don't always work. Specially some Cajuns, they use it for pasta topping.

Here in Southeast WI, a couple years ago, a local State Trooper was in a car chase with an armed bank robber, shots had been fired at the scene. Chase ended with a crash at a north IL toll both. Trooper got out to go on foot chase. BG stopped, wanted to fight, no gun in sight. Trooper got out his new shiney can-o-spray and let BG have a face full. Hmm, nothing, a fight was on. Turns out he too had just come back from OC training, ended up with a can of INERT training spray. Way Bad juju. Anaway, the BG fights him, lands a Mike Tyson straight to the face, concussion results, Trooper gets a bear hold cause he can't see past all the stars & birdies floatin round his head. Suddenly the BG reaches over his shoulder blasting with a gun. You guessed it, the troopers gun. Murphy was there for both as the first round fired by BG was to his own head. Lucky for Trooper, his head was at BG's right shoulder, BG shot over, or tried to, his left shoulder. BG went to dirt like a sac-o-spuds. Trooper, still dazed and bleeding, was wondering where BG got a gun till he went for his holster. Oh crap! At least it ended ok. Damned folks at Trooper training station had issued a few folks some of the inert stuff I heard.

Kinda like .308 simmunitions, NO WAY. Surely would still be potentially lethal.

out

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of Good ole A - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:30:16 (ZULU)

Dang it 'Lito, how come you always gots to bust my bubble? He,he.

Did I get a passing grade on my correction? Now it'll take all day to get my brain back in order. (or is that disorder.)

John

John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:39:37 (ZULU)

SniperII?

Was the first one such a triumph?

All pepper spray would do to my wife is give her a hankerin' for crab claws, lemon grass and a side of jasmine rice.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:20:05 (ZULU)

Thanks to all you guys who offered directions to Camp McCoy!! I actually found it on the map.

Bell&Carlson stocks...

My brother bought one for his Sako and he couldn't even get the action screws in it. If you turned it upside down and looked down it, it looked like a bow instead of a rifle stock.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:29:06 (ZULU)

P. M. Hayden...

Accra-glsss is probably the worst I have ever used. Marine Tex is very good, as is Microbed. Micro-bed can be mixed in as small a quanity you want. Also Brownells "Steel Bed" is great, and can also be mixed in whatever amount you want. Make sure you use a good release agent, or you will be an unhappy camper (read the archives about a month ago :(((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:45:15 (ZULU)

Smallpox vaccinations. Oh joy.

I remember getting mine when I was a kid. There was always somebody knocking the scab off and I felt just as bad.

http://msnbc.com/news/843411.asp?0cv=NB10#BODY

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:01:51 (ZULU)

Guys anybody else make this connection, Saddum Insane says he's going to turn over the "I'm a good boy and don't have any nasty play toys" document a day earlier than it is required. It is suppose to be in on Dec. 8th. But he's giving it up on DECEMBER 7TH!!!! Ummmmm????

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:15:13 (ZULU)

Krauthammer's take on denying rogue regiemes WMDs. This is very good.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/964dzkuf.asp

To all you operational guys: It may be getting close to party time. Good luck.

Bedding kits: Natural Kiwi shoe polish works great for release agent.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:28:57 (ZULU)

Sarge...Ref Dec 7th.

Last time, we weren't ready. Would you hit Mike Tyson in the face while he was looking you in the eye saying "move and I'm gonna eat your ear!"?

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:54:31 (ZULU)

Sniper 2, is Berringer's attempt to make up for Sniper. He hired some 8541 instructors to work with and coach him. He wanted this one right. You should not see any BS gear. You might even see a sling or two that you recognize.LOL

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:57:04 (ZULU)

Bruce R.

I got the plates and stickers yesterday afternoon. Very nice, thanks.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:03:07 (ZULU)

Bell and Carlson bites the big weenie.

Remington dumped HS for a year or two (trying to go the cheaper route) went to BC and have since gone back to HS (for the VS, P and LTR models anyway). That was the last time I talked to Janice ? at HS Prec. Nice lady. Call. She'll give you the run down. Knows her shit.

Only way to tell the difference in the stocks is the trademark stamp on the bedding block inside, under the action. I sent all this to Snipersonline earlier this year after researching it but tossed the notes like a dumbass. Guess I ought to call her back.

It came up because on the B/C stocks, the swivel studs are threaded into the glass only, not the strength of the bedding block like the HSs are. That's why MC M puts a big T Nut or a big piece of steel in theirs to screw into IF YOU ASK FOR IT.

DOUGY: I swore to myself a long time ago not to judge another man until I had looked thru his scope. I have had it done to me and it too, bites the big weenie.

That said ... and correct me if I am missing something but ...

The cops got an ARMED ROBBERY (A Felony crime) with shots fired ? They stop the BG and ... ARE GOING TO USE MACE ??????????????????

Oh no, not here. Not initially anyway.

If that's all there is to it and there aren't any circumstances we don't know about (there usually is). That Trooper is damn lucky he didn't get his stupid ass killed.

I know State Police in a lot of places breed that "I shall fear no evil, baddest guy in the valley creedo" That is because they are often one man, far from back up and they don't want to teach them to QUIT when it gets dark and scary.

But the problem with that is, if you believe it too much, that's exactly where you will be walking.

Macho shit aside, ya gotta work smart. Always somebody badder'n you.

I'm preaching to the choir.

I have BSd my way out of more ass kickings than I can remember but then ... I know you guys find that hard to believe. heh heh

Tha brings up a good question.

Is BS a Martial Art ?

'Cause if it is, I think I am a Jedi.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:26:56 (ZULU)

The only thing wrong with the San Andreas Fault hasn't finished it's job and let San Francisco slide into the ocean (maybe with the rest of the state)... Why the hell San Francisco's Federal district court has jurisdiction over nine western states beats the hell outa me... that's like putting Pee-Wee Herman in charge of the NFL!!

This is the battle that we have wanted (and feared) for 65 years. We will either win real big, or our future as gun owners is doomed :(((

GO here:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/12/06/MN211218.DTL

Sniper II... in spite of many (and I do mean M-A-N-Y) flaws with the orginal "Sniper", I enjoyed it much more than "Enemy at the Gates", which I never even botherd to watch the ending... it sucked!

Hope Sniper-II corrects the errors, and keeps the good stuff.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:38:43 (ZULU)

Macintosh junkies...

I gots a problem :((

With my 9600, I had a hard crash, and it wouldn't re-start. I hooked up an emergency drive to boot on, and when booted, the main hard drive is now "Locked" (little lock icon on the top left of the window when I open the drive).

I can open the main drive window and click on stuff and some of it will open. Some of the programs will work if they don't need to access preferences or other things, cuz EVERYTHING in the drive is locked (can't be written to or moved).

I want to drag my files out to another (new, larger) drive, but it won't allow me to copy out my files... I can't drag anything out of the drive, can't copy anything out, I can't move anything in or out of it, and it won't boot cuz all the operating systen files are also locked... does anyone know how to unlock a locked hard-drive??

I tried Norton Disk Doctor, plus Lacie Silver, and other disk tools, and they all say the disk is looked (Duh!), but don't have a tool to unlock it.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter is here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:55:36 (ZULU)

Brian- If you mean Janet at HS Precision you are too late. If we are thinking of the same person you are right about her knowing her stuff. I'm not sure what has been going on at HS for the past year but several good people have left , JR and Janet being just two of them . I asked Jenet about some of the earlier departures and she gave me the party line. I have two of their rifles ,both "shoot" beyond expectations( thanks JR) but both had little problems that I wouldn't have expected. The most recent rifle was delivered with a bolt release that would bind on the stock ,so the first time I worked the bolt it came out in my hand. Rather than send it back , which is what they suggested, I fixed it myself.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:56:49 (ZULU)

Brian...

Janet is no more at H-S... they gave her the boot :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter is here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:58:15 (ZULU)

"Is BS a Martial Art ?"

Around here it is.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:00:22 (ZULU)

WOW. I wasnt expecting answers using caps. Maybe I should have found cover after that one. I guess everybody needs a little calibration once in a while. Let me try to clarify...

I am the "BG" for the local swat team and get to use 9mm Simunitions on a decently regular basis. 9mm is fine and as long as the required PPE is worn(I wear the helmet w/ goggles, throat protector, cup, lvl 3 vest, and gloves, longsleeves, etc)they dont hurt all that much.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of a "dumbed down" version for .308. Something with significantly less velocity than FED GMM. Maybe more like the velocities found with the 9mm or .40 simunitions. Just enough to get it out the barrell and have a comparable range to the pistol calibers or perhaps a bit farther. It might just be wishful thinking on my part as accuracy can be questionable and including the shooters position within the designated and sanitized safety area could be difficult to maintain. It takes two physical searches, empty pockets, and a metal detector search to get inside our areas. Once inside, you cannot leave.

We'll call this one my fault, as I should have been more clear with what I was asking. As always, any input is greatly appreciated.

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, 70403 - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:09:14 (ZULU)

aye, confirmed:

Janet Thompson, not Janice, is no longer at HS Precision. She's a good ol' gal, we still keep in touch, and youse guys are reeeeeaaaalllly gonna miss her if you have to call up HS.. Just keep this as a mental note, or write it down, if you have a technical question for HS, ask for Doug, accept no one else.. Only one left with a clue..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:17:48 (ZULU)

Undude -

Speer 30cal 190gr match: bc=0.54 (per Speer manual #12, printed 98)

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:30:28 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

subj: GA SC Duty Roster Rifles

I just got back from a Trip to Wisconsin. I took a tour of Rock Creek Barrels facility.

Mike Rock broke out the "White Carpet" for me. About 2 inches of snow.

I have never seen anyone who loves there job more than Mike. Upon entering his shop. I saw medium sized shop filled to the brim with all types of barrel making equipment. The first thing Mike showed me was the barrels he is making for George for the Roster Rifles. I fondled just about all of them...Bet you guys are Jealous now.

Mike then asks me what the barrel is that I ordered. I informed him it was a 308 cal for a 300Win Mag 1:10. He grabs a blank and starts a lecture on the procedures of drilling, contouring, fluting, rifleing of the barrels. During this time we are building my Barrel. He has his shop set up. So he starts one proceduce on one blank, moves to the next tooling machine, starts another and so on. When he gets a couple going. He goes back to the first just as it is finishing. Knowing the exact timing of each procedure.

Mike is an awesome guy who absolutely loves what he does, including teaching why things are done. I didnt have much time in the shop. I regretted that I had a plane to catch. But I learned alot and came away with an better understanding of barrel manufacturing and made a good friend.

There is know doubt in my mind why George uses Mikes barrels.

PS. Mike has a few new products/patents that will be anounced at the next Shot Show. All I can say is, Its a good time to be in Special Forces.

Bryan

bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:30:52 (ZULU)

10-4 on Janet being gone. A big loss for them in my book, she asked me for a recomendation letter and I wrote her a nice one. She was a class act in my book.

JR..

I would like to get a stock repainted out to H&S with the sand and spinich camo color to match my others. Who should I talk to about this would Doug be a go to guy for this??? Thanks!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:36:55 (ZULU)

Re: Tom Beringer

Sniper 2! Ha ha. What I'd really like to see is him playing Bob the Nailer in a film version of Point of Impact.

Alex Tham <atham@earthlink.net>
Diamond Bar, CA, US - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:40:36 (ZULU)

Urinating in a wet suit....ah, that sure does bring back the memories. Kinda like working for the SAPD, you get a warm feeling all over, but nobody notices. It all depends on the depth at which you try to do it. At Dreager depths, no sweat, it just kinda happens when you feel the urge. Regular scuba, you gotta really want it to happen, as you hafta equal the water pressure, and anything over 2 atmospheres requires some effort. 3 atmospheres, forget it, and any solid waste has to stay where it's at, 'cuz you really DON'T want to open yer sphincter when yer that deep.....unless you like being reminded of Granny's remedy for constipation. If my foggy memory serves me correctly, pucker factor prevents that, anyway.

They say we have to carry an intermedate weapon here for the SAPD, but have this dimwitted rule that you have to have it used on you, first, before you can carry it. So, they want me to get sprayed in the face before I can have pepper spray. Now, I may be from South Carolina, but I do have the capability to learn from others. I didn't let them shoot me before they gave me a pistol, and I'm not dumb enough to let someone rub a couple hundred jalapenos in my eyes for the privilege of carrying a can of superheated hairspray. Ever spit out the window and had it come back on ya? (if yer from Texas, you know what I mean) Now, if it hurts the peckerwood, it can hurt me. But I ain't never had a 36" piece of hickory bounce back on me whilst I was applyin' it to some dirtbag's melon....keep yer pepper spray.

CDC.....Thanks. I was just wanting to know so's I'd know where to go when I shoot this one out.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 17:00:29 (ZULU)

Guys,

sorry, but there is no fondling allowed in a Scottish barrel shop.. that is unless your voice is about 3 octaves higher than mine in addition to a considerable cup size. If you meet those qualifications, fondle away, but the barrelmaker gets first dibs..

Hellllooooo Nurse!

It is kinda funny that people who watch us makin barrels think we have some kind of sixth sense with these machines, so I'll leave it at that..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 18:45:08 (ZULU)

JR..

You do, you just don't realize it!! Thanks for the info I will give them a call in a week or two.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 19:23:44 (ZULU)

Brian,

I hereby dub thee

Brian the (In)Sain - Knight of the Roster table, Holder of the Cajun Clans silver Luge tray of pie fights, and Lord Master of the art of BS......

Secret handshake!

Hi Sign!!!!!!!

heh-heh

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 20:14:33 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

I just spoke to H-S and the price for repainting a black M24 to Sand & Spinache w/spider web is now $105 plus $15 shipping, with one to two weeks turn around... I should'a sent it in Sept, when it was $95 :(( Bummer.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:24:16 (ZULU)

PETE: I'd like to thank the Academy ...

Hey guys, we hit a house for some grass. Shitter was broke in the place and they were using a full 5 gallon bucket to fill up the tank.

A bad guy had just taken a dump and was going to pour some water in the tank when the SWAT truck yanked the burglar bars off the front door. He ran and grabbed the dope and threw it in the commode but overfilled it with grass and it wouldn't flush. Spilled the bucket and water was all over the floor.

Tiny bathroom.

'bout that time a flash bang comes through the window and lands in the middle of the bathroom floor.

Can you say BOOM ? ... I knew you could.

He was soaking wet and covered from head to toe with shit and wet marijuana when we got to him.

"What ya'll had to go and do me that fuh ?" he he.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:33:33 (ZULU)

Brian,

yah, funny ha ha, except for the dude that has to stuff him.. I'd tow him back to the precinct, like the dog on Vacation starring Christy Brinkley and Chevy Chase...

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:58:07 (ZULU)

MILITARY DESIGNATED MARKSMAN POIs

Am setting up a 2 day course and while I have my outline done, I would like to hear from those who have something they have run before also.

Pls email me at jeff.waters1@us.army.mil

Thanks

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 22:49:09 (ZULU)

I need a little advice from you hogs. I have bought another Leupold MK4 M1 with mildot reticle at a good price. The only thing is that this one has been painted with a camo pattern. I want to strip the paint off and get back to the original Leupold finish. Anyone out there got any suggestions as to what paint stripper to use that won't damage the original finish ? I am going to put this one on one of George Gardner's great creations......thanks

Kimbershooter <ricki@i-c.net>
Disputanta, Va., - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 23:23:56 (ZULU)

I've got a friend that's looking to build a 338RUM up and neither of us can find what the max OAL of a remington or winchester magnum action is. Is the RUM actions larger/wider than a standard LA? I figure just the feed lips are different but am not sure so....

He's wanting a repeater that will facilitate an OAL of 3.55" with 300SMK's.

Any ideas of how long he could go if he got a 300WM for a donor?

Thanks Hawgs,, and congradulations Sir Brian of the (in)Sain, oh Exhuberant Knight of BS,, ;)))

FatBoy...

Charles S.,

I tried to e-mail you off-line, send me better e-mail address...

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 00:32:44 (ZULU)

Kimbershooter...

Use a standard paint remover, mineral spirits, and 1/2" brushes.

Use a small brushe to put remover on, let set, and use a brush with mineral spirits to wash it off... do it in small patches. Put some on, let it set, and wash it off

Keep the gook away from the lenses, and out of the turrets.

A water soluble one is also good, just wash off the patches with hot, soapy water.

When finished, wash the whole thing in soap and water, and let dry in the disdrainer (keep it out of the dishwasher/dryer). Look for missed spots, and do them again if required.

It will be good as new... the black finish will not be damaged.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 00:36:17 (ZULU)

Byron,

You have the dubious honor of being the first to post on Dec 7th mang....

Let us remember today, all those that lost their lives 61 years ago,, by an attack from a group of sneeky bastards.... and let us now be vigilant in whipping the new lot of sneeky bastard off the face of the earth.

FatBoy...

Thanks 'lito,

I won the thing on ebay with a 700.00 bid so the little work involved is worth it. Do you know if Premier or Leupold can (will) convert it to a M3?

Kimbershooter <ricki@i-c.net>
Disputanta, Va., - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:07:11 (ZULU)

Chris,

Well, all I can say is unlike other events that have occured on this date, mine was not planned. It was spure of the moment trying to pass on some insight to Charles' dilemma over OC.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:09:33 (ZULU)

Kimbershooter...

Nope... can't be converted to an M3. But it is a good scope as it it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:23:06 (ZULU)

UNdude/Mike

THE BC for the Speer 190 Gr match is .540 Sec Den is 286

See Loadbooks 1990 Ed for the 308 Win Page 24.

The Sierra 190 Gr Match lists the BC as .610 Sec Den is also 286.

I checked my old reloading books including gthe 1970 issued of Spper and the loadbook in 308 Win is the onl one that listed the 190 lots of info on the 180s

Hope this help.

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:28:58 (ZULU)

In-Sain, congrats, buddy! peteR annointed me with the "Sinister" moniker and I like it.

Jim in Joisey, the Swede I was looking for (with the plastic ball at the end of the turned-down bolt handle but without the off-hand section added to the stock belly): http://www.sarcoinc.com/guns12-3.html

Paul, try the forums at macgurus.com. Lotsa Mac-smart folks there (somebody may have the answer). Hope it wasn't the RAID that locked up.

Charles, you only have to get pepper-sprayed once (and it'll blow dead bears for about four hours) -- man is that a handy weapon.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:36:45 (ZULU)

Byron,

and unlike the attack in 41,, you're input will likely be very well received.

FatBoy...

Please read the entire message before reading the signature because:

The best part is the signature!!

SEMPER FI: 01

FROGS: 00

(This is a treasure)

A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):

A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he thought we(Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to provoke a war. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn't be able to count on the support of France.

I told him that it didn't surprise me. Since we had come to France's rescue in World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was due to surface at some point in the near future anyway. That is why France is a third-rate military power with a socialist economy and a bunch of faggots for soldiers.

I additionally told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words, would do whatever it had to do, and France's support was only for show anyway. Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the burden, as evidenced by the fact that the French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the other way around.

He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the Burger King and beat his ass in front of the entire Multi-National Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had more fight in him than the average Frenchman.

He called me a barbarian cowboy and walked away in a huff.

With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Mary Beth Johnson LtCol, USMC

HA!!

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:32:23 (ZULU)

JR: The last of their breeding stock was lost at Verdun. That little popcorn fart country has a veto in the UN Security Council. What a joke.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:39:46 (ZULU)

JR, I think I met Mary Beth once...hmmm...no, this soldier was Army. Anyway, guy I worked for had rental property. We were renovating after a tenet skipped out owing money. Seems the X tenet left his military dress uniform behind. He returned to try and get them when we were there....called my boss a stupid SB, fistacuff erupted with said X tenet getting a good arse woopin by a guy 30 years his senior. X tenet claimed old guy was in trouble now because he was going to return with his commanding officer. Commanding officer returns with him and listens to "old guys" version of what happened. C.O. asks me if the story was accurate. Upon hearing that it was SHE turns to young soldier and tells him that she would have kicked his arse too under the circumstances, then asked my boss to return the "Greens" as they were gov't property. Also assured him that he would get every penny he was due for rent.

Louis <Stoner25MKIV@aol.com>
Floyds Knobs, In, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:49:15 (ZULU)

>>>>>> With friends like these, who needs enemies? <<<<<

Since I haven't kept up with the news lately and with the thought of an Iraqi war looming, I was just wondering if the French had surrendered yet?

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:49:19 (ZULU)

In-Sain,

We hit an apartment a couple mornings ago, Heroin dealer, recently released from an IL prison, parole for homicide, bragged to all his cohorts how he would NEVER go back to prison. Seems he & another piece o crap did an armed home invasion on an older couple in town. Local POlice & Gang unit worked up a warrant. We did a no-knock about O-Dark thirty. I was outside doing the sniper/perimeter thing at the only window, with my M4 config. Heard the team breach, then the entry team leader calls, "He 'moused' up." That meant he burrowed right inside the wall where I was standing. Turns out ole Willie Bad Ass crawled under the bed as soon as he heard his door gettin hit. He thought it was OTHER drug dealers coming to kill him. Left his woman & kid out for bait. What a pussy that bad guy. Ya jus never know. Bought the wife a rem 700VSS tonight in 22-250. Told her it was an early Xmas present. Like the Love of my life, she says, "If you want another rifle, just buy it. You don't have to make some story for me." I am one lucky man. No new(renewed) thread intended.

ouy

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of good ole A - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:55:02 (ZULU)

Thanks guys for the info on the BC for the Speer 190's. The .540 is probably a little high as my experience with Speers versus Sierra is the Speers were always slight lower BC (by a smidge) That BC info on the Sierra 190's seems high to me. If memory serves me its more like an average of .533 or so. That .610 is higher than I remember.

Litto, heck you can make a stock any color for a few dollars and change it for a few dollars more. Krylon is magic.

Ken If I am in country I will do all I can to attend. Waiting to hear where I will be.

Undude/Mike

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:59:48 (ZULU)

Sinister...

Thanks for the heads up on MacGurus. Last time I was there (about 1 1/2 years ago) they didn't have forums. That where I got my RAID board, and some other VLD parts and stuff.

Now they gots forums, and don't sell stuff... go figure?

Anyway... it wasn't the RAID, it was my main drive that went and locked itself, so I asked over there... looking at the forums, there are some heavy hitters and smart puppies over there... (MacCountry? HA!).

Mike...

Hell, I can slobber paint on it just as bad as any other fool, but I want the Sand & Spinache w/spider web that H-S has... it'll match my 300WM. Kinda like "Bobbsy Twins".

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:37:45 (ZULU)

Undude,

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (2100 fps +) 0.533

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (1600-2100 fps) 0.525

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (1600 fps -)) 0.515

Got an Excel spreadsheet with info on most .308's

Lemme know if you want a copy.

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:52:58 (ZULU)

So is it Sir Brian or Lord Master Brian ?

We got a Sir Wesley already. Either way, I'm honored.

Personally, I think I like Sir. Hard to beat company like Wes.

Hawgette my ass 'lito. HA ! Double Ha ! Thanks Pete !

Hit 'em for 18 hrs today. Santy Claus is comin' ...

I think I want a Bill Bagwell Bowie.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:09:20 (ZULU)

Hey you Yahoos!!!!

I'm in sunny Yokusuka Japan teaching the US Navy to fight and repell boarders and shit. Its fricking cold and wet and I live a hotel room smaller than the walkin closet in my hacienda in Alabama.

I'll be posting here infrequently as the navy compooter we have in the orofice doesnt have Java enabled on it so I cant post so am at the base library fighting little brats for access to a compooter.

Its Dec 7th here in Japan. Watched Pearl harbor on Japanese TV last night. Jap sub titles with Engrish then when the Japanese talk in Jap...NO SUBTITLES! Hey WTF! ANyway, nobody is recognising the day over here which is funny being on a Navy base.

We had some IEDs lobbed at Camp Zama, the army base North of here a few weeks ago by a home made Mortar. I guess the badguys are partial to them over here. No one hurt and the projectiles didnt 'splode. We are waiting to see what happens re: Saddam. Things might get exciting round hyar.

ANyway, ya'll stay loose and be thankful you are in the good ole USA. Like they say, you dont really appriciate it till you go out of conus.

Out here.

Pirate 1st Class Gooch

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 07:01:51 (ZULU)

JR- Thanks for confirming that it was Janet, not Janice, at HS Precision. After nearly 4 years and dozens and dozens of phone calls I would hate to have been using the wrong name.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:09:10 (ZULU)

hopefully this won't start a "Virus Country" thread...

Some of the newer viri use email addresses harvested on a computer or from the Internet and use them as *forged* return addresses to send them to some of the other harvested addresses. For the semi-technically inclined among you, you can check the incoming message headers for where it was actually sent from, as opposed to what the stamped return address says.

Kind of like getting a letter with a return address of "Nome, Alaska" with a NYC,NY postmark. Someone is playing fast and loose with the "rules".

Rod Regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:17:03 (ZULU)

"So is it Sir Brian or Lord Master Brian ?"

Its "Crawfish eatin' coonass" and don't get uppity.

(Smiley face here. I don't want him flying his 275 lb girl-friend up here to kick my ass.)

"I think I want a Bill Bagwell Bowie."

You won't be getting a new knife. You're getting a new power. You may want to hold off making a decision until you check out John Smith's current work. It's amazing. Jerry Fisk's and Jim Crowell's too. Crowell's is my favorite of the lot.

The Federal Gubment recently declared Jerry a national treasure or a historical landmark or something. All I know is, he is a Hell of a nice guy who builds a Hell of a good knife.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:45:12 (ZULU)

JR:

I saw that same post sent to me by a Marine friend. What are the two words the French can never say????

............ " WE WON !" .............................HA!!!

Jim Abbott <jaa.jr@verizon.net>
Flower Mound, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:56:04 (ZULU)

KEN HUNTER:

You Got Mail Re a Lefty Remmy 700 VS in .308 for sale.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 14:45:05 (ZULU)

CDC,

Is there a problem with Crawfish eating??????????????????

Juuuust kidding! Damn you really do have a "Bowie Blade Fetish" by the names listed thar.

Had some Chipotle pepper laced CHILE for lunch yesterday, (28 WS /30 F at work) and thought maybe some Jambalaya, and a BIG ASS plate of mudbugs might be good tonight...............

be back soon

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 15:20:21 (ZULU)

Lord (In)Sain,

Shades of the Alamo, you gots to go outside of Texas to get a decent Bowie? ;)))))

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 16:24:53 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Take care and SEMPER-FI!

And watch your "SIX" around them swabbies... ;o)

(Just kiddin', Squids.)

Spud

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:07:23 (ZULU)

Received my new, slightly used Winchester M70 Classic Featherweight in 6.5x55 today. Thanks 'lito, but ya guessed wrong, it's a long action. Anybody want to buy a Badger base for a Win. short action cheap?

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:19:21 (ZULU)

I'll be runnin' up the Colors here pretty quick (Before I set up the tree and Christmas lights- wierd, eh?) in memory of Dec. 7.

Wonder how many flags I'll see flyin' today.

I actually did my retirement ceremony on the Arizona Memorial back in '91. Lt. General Milligan, FMFPAC, did the honors. Solemn, bitter-sweet. Gave a special salute to the Marines and Sailors who reside there.

Used to have "ship-Over" ceremonies out there, too.

Sorry for the "memories"...

I'll be tippin' a coupla "Jacks" tonight for those that have gone before, those that are, and those that will.

Take care studs. (and that means you hard-core ladies, too.)

Spud

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:24:57 (ZULU)

Byron: I replied to your mail off-line of the DR, so I wouldn't have to eat up space here. Suffice it to say, I have NO misconceptions about OC spray. It's not always effective, but has been touted as some kind of "wonder spray" that will take down the baddest of the bad. Sheesh. Nothing could be further from the truth. And to insist that new recruits get sprayed in the face so they can look at a judge and say "daddy, I know it would hurt, so I had to do it" is not now, and never has been, legally necessary. Now, in dealing with countless numbers of dopers, crackheads, sprayheads, heroin addicts, drunks and just plain old icky mean people, I've never run across one that didn't respond to the swift application of a hard object to the side of the head, just below the ear. Scrambles the switchboard just long enough to get an edge. I HAVE seen a stone cold sober man stand there and say "Yer pissing me off!" when getting sprayed dead in the face with that stuff. So, keep it, and I'll keep my asp and my "woody". Part of the problem is the growing tendency to rely on new gimmicks to replace old-fashioned gumption. If we spray 'em, we won't have to rassle with 'em, mentality. Administrators and accountants are beginning to lise sight of the fact that sometimes, ya just gotta dance with the ugly folk.

Howas rule.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:48:28 (ZULU)

re: Point of Impact / Bob the Nailer as a movie

retitled "Shooter" last ref I saw (probably because there is a 1993 movie already called Point of Impact - darn!) They'll probably change the title again because there is a movie produced in 2000 that is titled "Shooter".

Last info I saw had Keanu Reeves cast as the lead. Kind of young to play a character that had served in Vietnam and then was a civilian for a number of years afterwards. That would make the character 30++.

(I don't feel like digging out the book to fine-tune the chronology). Of course, by the time they get around to making the movie, he could be old enough to be believable. Keanu was born in 1964. Liked him in The Matrix.

My choice would have been Tommy Lee Jones, but he's starting to get a bit old for the role. He was born in 1946. (No aspersion on you mature guys - I'm starting to get into that territory myself.)

Rod Regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 18:31:10 (ZULU)

Get home from Edinburgh, pour myself a muckle dram of fine single malt, log on, double tap SC DR, and I see:

Lord Brian? Lord Master Brian????

sheesh, give a Texan an inch....more like 'court jester'(kinda rhymes), ya clown shoe... haaa...

Gooch,

good luck over there...

Pat,

no problemo dude, I'll try to swing thru Pierre if I decide to head out to Rapid for a day or two..

later aye, lassies on the menu tonite....

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 19:00:08 (ZULU)

Ok M3LR question, I use the 175SMK over 44 gr of Varget with Lapua brass and Fed GM210M primers chronographed at an avg of 2600fps. Using the .30-06 cam I KNOW the fps is a bit slow. 100 yd groups are sub-minute even the 200 yd groups hold sub-minute when I do my part. Now the question, at 300 yds dialing the cam to "3" I shoot 3" high of POA. Taking it down 1 click lowers the POI 3" below POA! Going 1/2 click doesn't help. Suggestions? Am I going to have to do somemore load testing to get the fps up to 2685 or is it 2680?

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 19:58:56 (ZULU)

MARK: I like Bagwells knives. He's in Tejas.

JR: Watch them lassies assies. I think Scottish chicks would dig me.

ALL: One of Rich Johnsons Snipers got shot last night. He's okay. BG shot him in the arm with a .44 mag. BG shot 3-4 times. Damn dope warrant.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:19:13 (ZULU)

"Mucle dram?"

What the Hell?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:29:40 (ZULU)

Yeah, Dan I was just gonna let it go.

I just figured he was ALREADY crying assed drunk and said he was missing Uncle Sam ???? Mucle dram ?

Speak bloody English laddy.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:42:24 (ZULU)

>>>>Get home from Edinburgh, pour myself a muckle dram of fine single malt, log on, double tap SC DR, and I see:

Lord Brian? Lord Master Brian????

sheesh, give a Texan an inch....more like 'court jester'(kinda rhymes), ya clown shoe... haaa...<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Try to show a coon ass some respect and look where it gets me ;)))))

BTW JR, for a single malt does Glenlivet get the nod in old Scotland? Muckle dram?

>>>>>MARK: I like Bagwells knives. He's in Tejas.<<<<<<<

Hmmm. My mistake. Got a web site? **edit note. I sure like this edit thingy.** That's not the same Bill Bagwell that used to sell 1874 Sharps Rifles is it? Surely not.**

Don,

HOW much for the Winchester Badger base? Contact offline if you like. I'm really looking for a level base for a Winnie 70 HBV though. Now if I could just find a used set of standard 30mm Badger Rings.

December 7, 1941. Less we forget.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:54:59 (ZULU)

Old Vet:

Still looking for the best caliber for my mauser action (vz24)

action is really nice. in the white,smooth rails,matching bolt,it

is as slick a baby's behind. is it to be 6.5x55,7.08, 7.06, 308

or 280. need help here, so speak out ,i'm all ears. i will be

reloading my own.

looked at two stocks,Wenig's lam. tac. & Richard's Microfit lam.

tac.

old vet,out

it's bad out there, you guys all come home safe.

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 21:42:33 (ZULU)

What's the rifle for?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 22:26:22 (ZULU)

cdc;

have family (sisters,brother) out in eastern Oregon

near a John Day River and Umatilla Nat. Forst. ranch 15k.ac.

total ac. 19k. we shoot from 3800ft.-4600ft alt. most of ranch

is 3600ft. up. goats ,elk, chuckers,steers,wild horses. big cats

coytoes. we have set sites and target stands from 100yds to 1200yds

one problem we shoot a little down hill, not more then 12deg.on

a level. been shooting M1 Garand, M1A1,Savage110.06,out to 600yds

want to crank it up and get out to 800yds+.

old vet

cut the BG no slack, and come home safe

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 02:17:27 (ZULU)

Dennis (SPUD), where did you get your bumper sticker "got mildot?"

Darren...

Darren <usmc_dd214_1990@yahoo.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:31:00 (ZULU)

"...goats,elk, chuckers, steers, wild horses, big cats, coytoes..."

.280 is the only one on your list that is good for elk. Use the 175 Nosler partitions. .30-06 is better yet. I've never shot a horse but I've been sorely tempted.

"...want to crank it up and get out to 800yds+..."

You can hit at that range, but you can't get clean kills.

If you shoot more of the bigger stuff, the .30-06 is better. If you shoot more of the smaller stuff, I'd go the .280.

I prefer shooting the .280.

That sounds like a very nice place.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:54:57 (ZULU)

test

Charlie Shoesmith <chog67@aol.com>
Lee's Summit, MO, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 05:14:43 (ZULU)

Good Morning all, hah,

A little English-English translation needed, eh?

ok, a muckle means a lot of, much, great, large. We call Langholm here 'Muckletoon' or 'big city'. Not to be confused with muck, or 'mucky', which basically means crap. A dram is a measure of whiskey, I'm not sure exactly how much is in a dram, but it's loosely used here for a 'shot'. So, a 'muckle dram' can mean a large measure of whiskey. Sometimes confused with a 'muckle beast', which is a whole new ballgame. Pete from Yorkshire may be able to clear this up, sometimes it's tough gettin thru these Borders dialects and getting clear definitions, words and phrases mean different things in your different villages.. You'd think the Highland dialect would be the toughest to understand, nope, unless they speak Gaelic, their English is good. Hawick, here in the Borders about 25 miles from me, has to be use of the most bastardised excuses for english that I have heard to date, beats Glaswegian by a mile.. I think they just make shit up to confuse me.. I do have to say that was the oddest feeling when I got here, they(Scots) understand everything you say(cuz it's perfect English), and you know that what they speak is supposed to be some form of english, but nope, nothin registers, not even in the 'I get the drift' sense. So youse drink a muckle a whiskey, and it all becomes more clear by the end of the night...

I could type in Geordie English.... Aa's nee gannin theor...

Glenlivet is top notch single malt. My personal favorite is Glenmorangie (Glen of Tranquility), all good stuff, can't go wrong with single malt..

Nivvor ower de it

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 06:53:20 (ZULU)

Darren,

Bruce Robinson is selling the mildot front licence plates and the sticker together I think.

Speaking of Bruce,, where ya been mang? PeteR starts visiting again and you take a break,,, I see how it is.... ;))

Passed on a 40X, single shot with a FAT barrel chambered out in 6x284, wood 40X stock with 4" rail etc, etc,,, with dies and all yesterday for $800. It had a neat trigger,, factory adjustable BR trigger, adjustable kinda like a Jewell,, through the shoe. I learn something new each day at the gunshow,, but most of the time it's others miss-informed, ignorant information about guns that stands out. (NOT the 40X shooter)For instance,, yesterday I learned a Jennings .380 is a top quality pistol,, and is utterly reliable. How was I to know ;))

JR,

You never did say what "at the chinky" means.....

FatBoy...

Glenmorangie, mmmmmmmmm (insert drooling & slurping sounds)!

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 14:58:16 (ZULU)

Gents,

Chris, suspect "at the chinky" is something you don't want to know

Gunshows...great source of misinformation. I don't even attend most of them any more. Dealers want to much, etc.

Second showing on the house today or tomorrow. Hope it sells and we can move closer to work. I'm spending 4+ hours a day on prep time and road time. To damn much. Besides, all that gas money could go to important stuff...like bullets, brass, powder, etc.

Scotch...lots of good ones JR. Sounds like you're "settling in" just fine over there. Personally, I used to be a Ripple and Seven-Up man...;-)

All for now...duty calls.

Semper Fi.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:29:07 (ZULU)

CHRIS: Was the Jennings a Target Model ?

Q: What do you call a blonde standing on her head ?

A: A brunette with bad breath.

Q: What is an open can of tuna at a lesbian party ?

A: Potpourri

Going shopping with the missus. Ya'll are smart enough to figure the MO out.

Later dudes

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:40:27 (ZULU)

HOGs, all this talk of knives makes me give up my great source for what feels to me like the best damm fighting knife I have ever used. Its Siminoch Knives http://www.simonichknives.com/home.htm.

I have one of the production knives and man its beyond belief. Old Dog sent one to me as a gift (What a nice guy) because he said I did not know what a good knife was until I tried one of these. It handles like a small knife, but is big. Its called the "Raven Combat" from the MIdtech line. Well I took the bad boy out and started chopping away at all kindfs of stuff. Wanted to see what it would do. I have had other knives feel good and chip, dull you name it so I was skeptical. I started chopping firewood and plywood with it. First swipe at some 3/4 AC exterior plywood chopped a corner about 5" off the plywood. So I beat the hell out of this thing choppping anything I could without getting killed by the Lady Lorraine for chopping on.

I could not dull this knife and it chopped like an axe. After I was in a sweat the knife still cutt paper like a razor.

If you are looking for a BOwie size fighting knife look here!

Darren, I get more questions around town about my "Got Mildots" sticker than anything else.

Undude

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:52:44 (ZULU)

Wes - agree with you 100% on the gunshow issue. Items are over priced, admissions here are $8.00 and to walk around and sell something they want a table fee. It used to be the place to go to get hard to find items or Military surplus stuff. Now with the net these things are easily obtainable without the drive and the crowds. Heck, the last two I have been to, we had more fun spoting the undercover ATF agents. I quit going after an ATF set up dealer tried to sell me M-16 fire control parts when I asked about the MFG of the match triggers he had on the table at a really low price. I was told buy the seller that the full-auto parts he had were legal to own and no class III paperwork was required. What do they think, people are that stupid? Especially here in Michigan where there, by state law, is no class III period. It's one thing to enforce the laws but to entrap people and entice them into breaking laws is abuse of authority and criminal. Especially when those who would fall for it are to stupid to know what they were being asked to buy is illegal.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:16:18 (ZULU)

CDC...Never shot a horse?

I have had the distasteful job of putting down 3, actually 2 horses and a pony..One with 45ACP hardball, the other 2 with 245 gr. Kieth SWCs out of a 44 mag...The results are sudden and dramatic when the shot is placed behind the ear..You have to be careful of how close to the beast you are standing as they drop instantaneously.

Buck season ended yesterday..Brock shot another, 5 point, at 4:30. I saw nothing with horns so, the score this year was Brock 3 and the old man 1..Have a week of doe hunting left; time to gather more burger.

For those who might be interested, S&W has some 5" bbls. for older Model 29 revolvers..Call Vito at the Performance Center. They only had 10 or so when I had my old 8 3/8s rebarrelled last month.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:19:05 (ZULU)

CDC...Never shot a horse?

For those who might be interested, S&W has some 5" bbls. for older Model 29 revolvers..Call Vito at the Performance Center. They only had 10 or so when I had my old 8 3/8s rebarrelled last month.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:19:19 (ZULU)

Titan...I assume you've read Unintended Consequences, but if not, it is a must read..There was supposed to be a sequal to that book. Anyone have any clue about that???????

outa here again; sorry for the double post.

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:25:23 (ZULU)

Markwell - Yeah, I read it back in 2001 when I was laid up with my knee. It is a good read, infact I read each chapter twice just to digest it all. The incident I mentioned above happened back in 1996, right after the crime bill was enacted. ATF was using stings at gunshows and under cover agents mingling in the crowd just like in the book. HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM????????????????

I wonder what a sequal would be like, as the book had good closure at it's conclusion. I would buy it though. Look at what the Author has gone through since he wrote the book. The ATF even tried to set him up using his exwife, or so the story goes.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:46:47 (ZULU)

Hi all,

Just got my rifle back from George at GA Precision. I'm sure you all are familiar with the kind of work he does. If not, it is excellent.

I told him I wanted it as close to USMC spec as he could get it, with the exception of the Wichita swivels. He even had an old Unertl mount for it. So, I guess it's as close to a real M40-A1 as you can get.

Paul C., you still around?

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:12:56 (ZULU)

Gunsmith needed , maybe . Since i cannot find a picatinney or tapered base by any manufacturer for my steyr ssg p11 , here's the thought . What about haveing my 30 mil steyr rings machined or lapped to a 20 moa taper ? Any thoughts ?

art <atraison@shaw.ca>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:27:15 (ZULU)

Glenmorangie, Glenlivet, Glenfiddich, and Pigs Nose. JR, they even export that last one out of the area? Been in a few pubs there LOL. "give a Texan an inch". Yeah, that's what Santa Anna said. Next thing you know, the Mexicans lost the whole tamale. Then they had to go and ruin a good thing. But what's this bagging on the frogs? Don't you know they have the best fighter in the world, that Mirage? Insert derisive laugher here. Other than making decent food from basically rubbish, and some rather good artists quite some while ago, what do they contribute to the world? Oh yes, the best machinists and mechanics in the world. More derisive laugher.

Fatboy, Jennings is a good combat pistol. That's why they beat the the rest (S&W, Sig, Beretta, Colt, Kimber, etc) out for the pimps union official throw down contract in the big easy. You notice that their quality, reliability, and accuracy caused the demise of Raven, right?

Brian, how about "Son of Lafette". That not only sounds good, but isn't rude as well. Suppose how rude it is depends on where you're from on second thought. Anyone eats mudbugs and can outlive those birds with fangs and watermoccasins is OK in my book.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:58:18 (ZULU)

Hogs,

There is going to be a (hopefully) quick interruption in services on the Roster.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 19:21:18 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Hope you like the little new feature...

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 20:33:52 (ZULU)

Goddamnit. got rammed by another kamikhazi box head in one of them new VW beetles today, on my way back from baiting the pigs. My damn van stalled at a cross roads, I put the hazzard warning lights on,got my finger stuck in the key fob and was just restarting the engine and this twit didn't see me, he was blinded by the sun. He insisted that because i had come from the road to his left, he had right of way.. yes if we had got there at the same time, but i got there at least a minute before hand. Now i'm sure that you are supposed to stop for obstructions in the road which have hazzard lights on.. no doubt he and his wife will lie and give me the blame. F@#$%^. I still aint got paid out for the last one. why oh why am i always at the wrong place/wrong time. Buggeritall I need a tank.

GW, you guys still using the Charley G? i used to like playing with the practice 6.5 (adapter sub-caliber) I seem to remember shooting a fox with one once. The Brits have a spotting round in the LAW90, i can't remenber if its 8mm or 6.5, but it was developed to be the same trajectory as the 94mm rocket, you pop away at your target with the spotter and when you hit it, swich to main, and boom..

JR, you seemed to have settled in nicely , and you seem to have fine taste in malt whiskey. The Scots dialect's are great aren't they. Glasgow sounds common as hell, but most of the rest of them are very pleasing to the ear. I spent 2 1/2 years with a Jock Infantry Bn, I gained a Scotts accent during that time. I can't stand the damn Geordie accent though, that comes from spending 2 years with a Geordie Arty Regiment, thats where i figured out why the Brits call the Arty blokes "Planks". I owe you some cash. Cheque ok?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:00:58 (ZULU)

Hogs, good news/bad news on "Point of Impact" movie: The bad news is that the project is on indefinite hold. Several people are interested, but it hasn't come together yet. The good news is Keanu Reeves is out and Tommy Lee Jones is in. Latest details here:

http://www.upcomingmovies.com/shooter.html

Undude: How does Simonich compare to Mad Dog knives? I have a Mako you can beat on if you want to give it a try. They are tool steel, differentially tempered with a chrome plating. Very tough, Louie Awerbuck turned me on to them. I'm not crazy about the handle design, though, doesn't fit my hand very well.

What kind of response do you get to your "Got Mildots?" sticker? All I get is "What's that mean?" I tell them it's a shibboleth. Then they have to ask me what that means.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:01:39 (ZULU)

Advice needed....Finally got to shoot me new piece yesterday. It requires 15" of elevation on the scope for a 100yd zero.

Does anyone know of any tricks to tell if this due to the rifle or bases or rings?

Rifle=223 PSS

Bases=Leupold STD 2-piece

Rings=Leupold STD

Scope=el cheapo 3-9x40

If this is due to bad barrel/receiver alignment, would 'blueprinting' fix it?

Lito - thanks for the earlier advice, but I would prefer to stay away from anything QD, as I've found that it tends to quickly detach at the most inappropiate moment.

Medic Jim - you hate cats? My wife has 23 of the little darlings. Breakfast time is an event in my house.

cheers guys,

Bisley Tiger

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:34:53 (ZULU)

TITAN:

been a member of O.G.C.A. here in Ohio over twenty years.

been going to shows for fourty yrs. it is as bad as I have ever

seen it .ever after the 68 laws went into effect. back then, we

would set them up by going around the show. looking for M-1Car.

and thompson smg parts.they would actual try an help us with

the right parts. we acted as dumm as nose honey. right up putting our money down. then off we would go. they would dammed near run us

down, as we made our get-a-way. don't try this today , would have us

spread eagle just for messing with them.

onered(old vet)

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:47:53 (ZULU)

Steve, where are you in the UK? maybe i know some one in the area who can check the rifle out for you( I like that - banned-it country, funny, but sad, pretty much sums it up don't it). Get rid of those mounts and that scope. spend a little on some decent mounts and a decent scope, and ask me before you buy, ( Jon B will testify to this) I may be able to save you some money.

Right, time for some shut eye, back at work in 7 hours. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:51:38 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln - you got mail.

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:07:34 (ZULU)

Grasshopper, are you a traveling man?

Tony B <tburkes@sbcglobal.net>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:14:35 (ZULU)

Ref: G.A. Precison

About a month ago I shipped George a M700 LA to build a 6.5X.284 rifle with. I expected to have the winter to leasurely gather together what brass, dies, bullets and what not together. I just got an e-mail from George saying it'll be done next week. HOLY COW!!!! That's what I call service!!! But now I'm way behind the power curve on the other stuff. Oh well the first focal plane Gen II versions of the 6.5-20X Loopies won't be ready from Premier until January any way. I get two Christmas mornings this year.....yeeeehaaaa!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:25:21 (ZULU)

cdc:

Fatboy felt the .280 was the way to go too.

guess i'll start looking for a tube. you know

being on a fixed income(the Eagle don't crap that much here)

i'm looking for a really good bbl. with out ,without having to

sell this new leg. give me the best names you know.i'll ck.

the list i got on line. i'll just have to work on the money

thing. Thanks, you guys a big help. learning more now about

long range work then the whole time in service.

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:53:18 (ZULU)

I would greatly appreciate some offline help/info from a few of you. I have decided to seriouly consider a search for a new job in a different state, but would like to know about the gun laws to help me refine my search. If you live in WV, TN, KY, VA, NC, or PA would you please send me an email off line (don't want to tie up the DR ) & fill me in on class 3, CCW, buying a long gun/pistol, cities with bans, what's legal/illegal to posses, ect. Thank you in advance for your time & help.

-danny

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
akron, ohio, usa - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:53:38 (ZULU)

Kevin -- I wouldn't worry about being behind the power curve on getting that new stick up and running - the ASC#2 Rules Subcommittee on Rifle Caliber recently ruled that nothing smaller than 30 cal would be allowed.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
Just puttin you on kevin, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 23:10:56 (ZULU)

Old Vet,

KenM decided 280AI was the way to go, not I, but I'd take his advice without reservation. Sounds like a great all around caliber.

I'm sticking with the 6.5x284 for now. It's a proven winner and has recoil like a 223rem. For us recoil sensitive pussies,,, the 6.5 is the trick.

No luck at the gunshow again today. Passed on a C serial'd 700LA ADL for $300. Couldn't bring myself to pay more than $280. I'm really looking for a SA anyway, so screw it....

KevinM (Andy's Dad),

;)) man,, I can't wait for the report after your first range session. You think you'll be able to wait for the Gen II 20X Lupita?? That M3LR will swap right over ((; My bet,,, you'll be building another one, for your spotter, by summer.

Marius,

You are one bad MoFo,,, I like the new feature. I may start double tapping just because ;))

FatBoy...

I just got done shooting a Tupperware Match (Gloch). I will let you all know how bad I did in a month or two when the results come back. Haha. You know shooting it really wasn't all that bad. I may play with it some more next year and shoot it for real in next years match. Shooting it once a year don't really count as practice does it? I may, Dramatic puase/clear throat, put the 1911 a way for a spell and shot this thing for part of next year season.

OC spray? Call me old fashion. So I go by the old adage, You gottta dance with who brung ya. So I don't carry it either. Besides theres all way a cactus around to throw someone on.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 23:52:10 (ZULU)

Don K...

I didn't guess... Winchester's site has the 6.5x55 as a short action.

If it was an old one from years ago, you should have said so. Some 10+ish years ago they very made limited runs of several calibers like 6.5x55 and .257 Roberts on long actions.

Bisley Tiger...

I don't know what you are talking about... I NEVER recommended any quick release system to you??? The only quick release systwem I ever recomended is the A.R.M.S. which is VERY expensive, and way over your head.

And, NO, Blue printing won't fix anything. You have the worst ring/base set up in the business. Get something better.

I would sugest you go back and re-read my advice. It will solve your problems, be rock solid, and cost about $60, instead of $250 to $350.

Of course... if you insist on having someone "Blueprint" your action (there is no such thing), I'm sure that there are many that will take your money.

Is there a full moon out this week???

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 00:30:05 (ZULU)

Tony B.: Not by inclination, but when necessity dictates. Why?

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 00:54:58 (ZULU)

Thank you, Marius!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 05:02:05 (ZULU)

Pete, they still use the charlie gutsache and they got inserts or some sorta prac rounds for 66 to I think.

Ive had some better than expected happenins on the financial front recently so whilst in the big smoke today I lashed out & bought a 8lb tin of varget,flip up scope covers 140 6.5 smk & a bit of other crap then copped an earful from wifey after her waitin in the car for an hour while Im droolin thru the gun shop.If the good things continue there may be a leica lrf 1200 in this part of the world soon.AH the joys of married life.

On the downside the feral gubmint has blackmailed the states into banning pistols with 4 inch or shorter barrels,they seem to think they are easier to conceal than a 5 or 6 inch version.These "people" really suck.When I get to be president I think I'll declare an open season on past politicians :)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 10:32:20 (ZULU)

Ref: Safety Tip

If you plan to spend $1600 on a new stick, be sure to tell the wife well in advance. It's not advisable to simply inform her a couple weeks before Christmas your going to need to write a monster check. Failing this,use ice in the first 24 hours, the swelling should go down in a couple of days.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 12:49:48 (ZULU)

Kevin- This situation is clearly not your fault. George should shoulder all of the blame for the unfortunate timing of this financial down turn. After all you had no

reason to expect the project would be completed so quickly. I clearly remember you indicating (in writing) that you were not expecting the rifle until much later in the winter. The only question that comes to mind is whether reaction is truly related to the timing of the expenditure ? Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery.

Rod

PS- When did you say Andy's rifle would be ready?

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:34:59 (ZULU)

Hi all,

Does anyone know where I can find a SIMRAD adaptor for a M40-A1 Unertl mount? I don't know if it's a separate ring or the top half of the existing ring. Thanks.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:52:45 (ZULU)

Kevin -

Tylenol for the pain, Advil for the swelling :).

Get well soon.

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:57:04 (ZULU)

Steve...

Check with Marty Badger. I think he has them.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 14:50:45 (ZULU)

Lito,

Thanks. I looked on the Badger site, but couldn't find them. If I remember correctly, they used to be on there. Unless Badger doesn't list all of their stuff on the web site, I don't know if they have them anymore. Still looking....

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 15:07:28 (ZULU)

Steve...

Call Marty and ask. If he doesn't have them, I'll bet he can tell you where to get them.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 15:34:45 (ZULU)

Marius,

Thanks! Sometimes editing just isn't appropriate when the post isn't either. :))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 16:11:35 (ZULU)

I guess it was my turn in the kicking box today... over 85 virus laden emails in one day... wow, am I lucky!

Ken, any chance we could somehow hide the email addy when a post is made... I only use this addy for the roster and it's clear someone has declared war.

Sinister - if I read you right, you made a purchase on the Swede? If you need me to stop by and take a look (to confirm condition) before they ship it, just let me know.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 17:02:21 (ZULU)

Lito,

I emailed Marty. Thanks again.

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 17:54:57 (ZULU)

GW, yeah we had them sub cal things for the 66 too, it was the Armoureres job to load the things, if i remember right we had to unscrew a plate at the back end and insert the umbilical primer thingy, 21mm rocket they fired?, hell i ain't played with one of them in years, you lot got Milan? the froggy anti tank thing? we used to have fun with them, hell i spent some tax payers money shooting them of, the equipment course to learn to repair em was a superb piss up too,we had a bloody bomb alert in one of the pubs near the barracks and the MP's came and evacuated the pub, i ended up getting friendly with the female MP captain... ( frowned upon that sort of thing you know, officers x non com's, but lust knoweth no boundaries or rank)

Lito. I think bisley t is refring to,, was it the burris Z rings? what ever you told him to get, he's probably referencing to a picture on the net or in a catalogue that is incorrect, either way he needs to bin them rings he's got and then buy a S&B..scope and some decent rings. I told him i'd take a nikon over a leupold, you agree?

Here's a funny one for you, now just call me Mr Bean or plain unlucky if you like, but after having my car crashed yesterday, i do a 12 hour shift, go home, get changed into bed attire and want to watch Band of Brothers (the final 2 episodes) on the TV, turn the box on, no bloody satellite signal, bugger, its cold out, the damn dish is on a pole at the bottom of the garden, behing a load of bushes, I display the signal strength and lock indicator on the tv and go and push the dish and pole around a bit, hopeing to get it back in the right place, back in the apartment i go, still no bloody lock, so there i am back and forth, no joy, I can't see the damn TV from out side so its all guess work, after about a half hour, still no damn signal, I get a bright idea, put the shutters up and stack the TV on top of a tool box and an ammo box on top the sideboard, with it facing out the window so i can see when i get lock. back out to the dish, bugger i still cant see the tv through the bushes, so i break of branches to create a lane through em, bugger, can't make out whats on the tv, ah,another bright idea get the bino's, ah, at last there i am, dish and pole in 1 hand bino's in the other, watching the tv so i see when i hold the damn dish in the right direction, bollocks where's the TV gone? back into the apartment, bugger its toppled of the ammo can, luckily onto the bed, phfew nuthin broken, back on the stack goes the tv, and i dash back out side, back in the bushes i go, around the corner come's a cop, some one has been neighbourhood watching and has seen me dashing back and forth and has called the cops,now bear in mind its bloody freezin, i'm in my slippers and half naked. I'm spying into the bed room with my bino's, try explaining that.. any way, i did manage to explain it, and even got the cop to twist the dish and pole about, with me in the warm apartment keeping an eye on the signal strength and lock indicator, finaly got a picture with 2 minutes to go,4 hours sleep and back to work, some days things just don't go my way.. right time to see a man about a pig.

New moon Wed Dec 4 08:36:12 2002

First quarter Wed Dec 11 16:49:43 2002

Full moon Thu Dec 19 20:12:19 2002

Last quarter Fri Dec 27 01:32:25 2002

New moon Thu Jan 2 21:25:08 2003

Lito with a S&B you don't need a moon.. ha ha, what you doing, coyote shooting? we got nearly a quarter moon tonight, that'll do for me to see the piggies, going to have the first night in my new tree stand, been -5 c here during the day, better put my longjons on. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 18:07:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just got back from a Military Ball in southern WI. Three days of a foggy stupor and tons of awards for my team. It was a good time for a change. Amazing what 3 kegs can do for a formal event!

Bisley,

'Lito is right...though surly. I have the same problem you have with those rings and bases. You can shim the rear or ditch the whole thing and do it right. I opted for ditching that crap. Loopy makes good scopes, OK QR set-ups, and decent MK4 set-ups--but the standard stuff is problematic at every turn. I solved the elevation problem on my son's Mod 7 with the weaver rail (one piece) base and a set of Burris Zee rings. If deer season wasn't in full swing, the loopies wouldn't have seen a shot fired. Garbage! Now, the reason Lito was short in his response is that he addressed this last week--and you seemed to have ignored his advice. And now you've been whacked by the rolled newspaper.

Lito,

Thanks for the tip on the Zee's--they are alot like the opti-locs from Sako...good stuff. Wouldn't have known to try them without your plug.

Still waiting for the official word...looks like Doha, Qatar. Kinda further in the rear than I wanted. I'll figure out how to move up north or west when the time comes...at least I'm going in the right direction. This desk here is as "rear area" as it gets!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 18:14:36 (ZULU)

Gents,

The SAKO .338 is sold. Great deal to a knowledgable gent. Sako Opti-lock rings and mounts, and all the goodies. At least we had one lucky winner.

Chris, so NOW I'm a pussie because I shoot a 6.5 X .284. Actually, I must be an amazon, cuz I shot the .338 Lapua...;-)

All for now gents.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:03:35 (ZULU)

I have a Sako Forester in .308. It seems like a very small action to me. Is this sturdy enough to build a heavy barrelled rifle on?

P. M. Hayden <pmhayden@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:13:40 (ZULU)

Call me idiot, but what the hell is blueprinting? Do I call it by some other name maybe? The only places I have heard it used is on websites, and I've never heard an explanation as to what blueprinting is or entails..

Compass Lake Engineering, anyone hear of that place?

happy day, the 'r's' are in production...yee haw!!

Pete, you unlucky bastad.. Looks to me like you had one of those ideas that sounded good at the time but....

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:36:00 (ZULU)

Blueprinting,

ok, yeah I've heard of it, now that I've seen this... here's the explanation

http://www.guntailor.com/html/actionblue.html

what this does for accuracy, I'm not sure... Perhaps crispens (wha?) the receiver up. I'd have to have one ratty action to do this kinda work on it though, he's really takin the piss out of truing a receiver.. oh well. everyone's gotta make a living.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:05:16 (ZULU)

JR...

You WOULD be the one to ask?? HA!... Double HA!!

----

*Blueprinting (blu-printing): verb A slang term from the auto racing culture - meaning to make or rebuild to the original dimentions - to the blueprints. The act of returning any piece of machanical equipment to the dimentions originally specified in the design blueprints.

---

OK... there are 'smiths that will "true" your action... meaning they will lap the lugs so both have full or almost full contact... but if this not done carefully (meaning polishing AFTER lapping) the lugs can gall... a very badd thing! Sometimes lapping is needed, most times not. They "may" put the action in a lathe and cut a new face on it... but this is not needed, since that is how the action is faced at the factory in the first place... but they will gladly charge for it. Some will chase, or "re-thread" the barrel threads, but that is also a questionable effort.

Some 'smiths will "true" the action as part of the barrel instalation.

None of these efforts return the action to the original dimentions... in fact thay take the action further away from the orginal dimentions.

Remember that all these efforts remove metal... you cannot fix the alignment of a bolt by removing metal... you must build up the surface by Tig welding, then take it down... which is something that NONE of these guys do. It would make no sense, since the Remington action only costs about $75 to make.

But beware of 'smiths that use the phrase "Blueprinting"! They are blowing smoke in your ear!

If you need an action that is perfect, then buy a perfect action to start with... there are many custom (aka Handmade) actions on the market... all it takes in money!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:07:24 (ZULU)

Lito,

I cannot find your previous post (on roster or archives). My understanding was that you recommended Burris rings and Leupold QRW bases.

If I am incorrect, please accept my apologies.

SteveA

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Standing in the corner, with a pointy hat on, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:42:59 (ZULU)

Aye Lito,

Blueprinting is a misnomer... Maybe he's blueprinting to his prints, ha.. When we squared the action face, and lapped the bolt lugs, ground the recoil lug, and so on, we called it 'accurizing'. but this fella likes to take it to the next level (read unnecessary), he's got indicators, 4 jaw chucks, reamers, etc.. He's actually re-boring the receiver!! Like I said, I'd have to have one ratty assed action to go thru all that..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:10:23 (ZULU)

BT...

That's what I recomended... but Leupold QRW bases are "standard weaver cross slot" bases... just very well made and very low.

The Burris "Signaturee 'ZEE' rings" are machined steel, with adjustable taper, and a cross bolt to hold the rings on the bases... they cannot come loose!! In fact, they take longer to remove than the BAdgers and MK4 rings. Nothing about this combo is quick release.

JR...

To take an off the rack action, and spend a ton on money to re-machine it to non-spec dimentions is damn silly. For the cost of a Rem or Win action, then add the labor to create some action that has nothing that is standard is expensive, and dumb.

For those anal types that can't live without perfection, there are many great custom made actions around... for less than a "accurized" Rem will cost... plus then you have something with real re-sale value.

When you pour a fortune into a Rem action, what do you have when you're done... a used $50 action :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:17:56 (ZULU)

'lito- How do you really feel about Reminton actions ? What's really WRONG with them? Given your frequent outbursts about whats wrong at Remington it seems odd that you would have ANY of there stuff in your safe. How is that Fireball doing? Don't hold back , just vent , let it all come to the surface. It will be good for you.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:56:38 (ZULU)

Lito....

from the Leupold catalogue,

Leupold QRW bases are "quick release weaver cross slot"

Leupold PRW bases are "standard weaver cross slot"

Are PRW the bases you are referring too????

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Standing in the corner, with a pointy hat on, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:33:46 (ZULU)

Steve A.,

The Burris Zee rings have an "offset insert"--you can use these by rotating them inside the rings to change windage or elevation--depending on where you put the +/- sides in relation to the baseline (vertical axis is neutral--they are eccentric to the rings). A very handy feature for what ails your set-up currently.

Rod,

Lito has chimed in on remmy's poor QC alot around here, but he's been on them for EVERYTHING--not just their actions. FWIW, I'd be glad to pick up whereever Lito leaves off on criticizing Big Green's failures of quality control. I was dumb enough to buy one. But hey, they make great project guns. Too bad the price doesn't reflect this reality.

Hey, how are those Howa actions holding up? Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:35:40 (ZULU)

Jim, haven't bought the Swede yet, but if you find one like the one on the link could you let me know? I think Sarco's got a nice rifle there, if just a little pricey.

Forwarded for your enjoyment:

A letter from a farmer, now at Camp Pendleton:

Dear Ma and Pa,

Am well. Hope you are. Tell Walt and Elmer the Marine Corps beats working for old man Minch by a mile. Tell them to join up quick before maybe all of the places are filled. I was restless at first because you got to stay in bed till nearly 6 a.m., but am getting so I like to sleep late. Tell Walt and Elmer all you do before breakfast is smooth your cot and shine some things. No hogs to slop, feed to pitch, mash to mix, wood to split, fire to lay. Practically nothing.

Men got to shave but it is not so bad, they get warm water. Breakfast is strong on trimmings like fruit juice, cereal, eggs, bacon, etc., but kind of weak on chops, potatoes, ham, steak, fried eggplant, pie and other regular food. But tell Walt and Elmer you can always sit between two city boys that live on coffee. Their food plus yours holds you till noon, when you get fed again. It's no wonder these city boys can't walk much. We go on "route" marches, which the Platoon Sergeant says are long walks to harden us. If he thinks so, it is not my place to tell him different. A "route march" is about as far as to our mailbox at home. Then the city boys gets some sore feet and we all ride back in trucks. The country is nice, but awful flat.

The Sergeant is like a schoolteacher. He nags some. The Captain is like the school board. Majors and Colonels just ride around and frown. They don't bother you none. This next will kill Walt and Elmer with laughing. I keep getting medals for shooting. I don't know why. The bulls-eye is near as big as a chipmunk and don't move. And it ain't shooting at you, like the Higgett boys at home. All you got to do is lie there all comfortable and hit it. You don't even load your own cartridges. They come in boxes.

Be sure to tell Walt and Elmer to hurry and join before other fellers get into this setup and come stampeding in.

Your loving daughter, Gail

P.S. Speaking of shooting, enclosed is $200 towards a new barn roof and ma's teeth. The city boys shoot craps, but not very good.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:36:25 (ZULU)

Why do you guys torture yourselves by getting "joint" checking accounts? To take this further, why do you guys even tell your wifies what you are buying? You need to go to Boltster's class on sneakiness.

Rule one, get a safe, keep the combo to yourself.

Rule two, rotate the guns around in the safe to make it look different just incase a female peaks inside. Females remember how things are supposed to look, not how many things were in there to begin with.

Rule number three, keep a gun or two at your buds house and make sure that wifie sees how empty the safe is. "Yep hon, had to sell a few to have enough allowance to get the one I really want."

More tips and tactics later, Bolt out!

PS: Politicians and Car Dealerships are just alike, nuff said!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:38:50 (ZULU)

Lord, I pray thee, what sin have I commited that you have brought this plague of Leupold mount and base poopie upon my insignificant life?

I promise that I won't peep into the girls showers anymore... well maybe for a week... OK, til tomorrow, that's the best I can do!

Bisley kitten

Go here:

http://www.leupold.com/products/mounts.htm

I don't mean to get pissy but JEEZ Mang! You will notice that the difference you are talking about are in the RINGS (That's R-I-N-G-S).

Lookie at the picture... they only show ONE set of bases for both the QRW and the PRW. Those bases come BY THEMSELVES... you don't buy either set of rings. They explain the difference in the RINGS (that's R-I-N-G-S).

I give up... get what ever you want. Hell, keep the STD rings and bases, I'm sure you will be happy.

rod...

You missed the whole point. Why spend $600 to $700 for an off the rack rifle, then spend another $400 to $500 to have the action "blueprinted", to put back the orginal barrel??? I don't care if it's a Rem, a Winchester, a Howa, or whatever. If someone needs that level of precision, get a custom action... then when you go to sell it, you will get most of your money BACK... if you put that much money into a OTR rifle, and go sell it, you will get $500 for the whole damn thing.

I need a friggin El Breako from this stuff.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 23:37:47 (ZULU)

Litto, first something nice. Just saw a new BDC for the MK4 from Leupold. Its marked for 190's 300wm and goes to 1300 yards. You do that? If so the moas built in are good to go. Cant wait for mine to get here this week.

Next not sure what you are talking about as a waste of money getting an action straight. I ahve ahd several done by GA Precisiopn and Norcal Precision and its a great thing to do when you build a weapon. I notice on my trued actions all rounds go in the same hole no matter how hot it becomes. Can you explain what you mean? Not sure I am following you or JR.

Lastly what do you think of the quality of the weaver style bases from Leupold? Are they good enough to mount a MK4 M3? and MK4 rings?

Grasshopper, never used the Mad Dog knives so cant speak. You come on by and we will beat the knives up and see.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 23:46:02 (ZULU)

Okay, Okay!

I can now see that you are right and I'm wrong (thats W-R-O-N-G).

I've screwed up again (thats A-G-A-I-N).

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
I'm going back to my village, its missing this particular idiot, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:12:42 (ZULU)

"Rule two, rotate the guns...". Bolt, allow me to make a change that works for me. Rule two, rotate the wives. Console yourself with the fact that as long as you have more guns than ex's, you're not a slut.

Don K.

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:50:20 (ZULU)

Bolt - Your advice is excellent. My problem is the wife does the same thing with her closet, kids closet( 3 girls) and bed linens, dishes, and furniture. I really come out on the losing side. At least with full disclosure she only spend $3 to my $1. Far better than the 10 to 1 it used to be.

GROUP DRAG BAG PURCHASE : looking at putting together a group Drag bag purchase of the big bags from either Eagle or Blackhawk or London bridge. Don't have prices yet, but wanted to get a list together so I could talk to some folks at where ever we chose. Let me know on mfg and color via Email like George handled the SC rifle project. I vote for tan to go with the SC rifle camo.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:59:19 (ZULU)

Mr. T-I-Dubba-Guh-Errrrr,

That's Tigger...as in pooh bear. And that vilage idiot thing was funny! Now before you came back as a large feline--did you used to make pistols in a former life? Har-har.

Loopy two-parters is askin' for alignment problems. Well-made one piece bases are worth the investment. I use MK4 rings on a badger base--but only because Marty can't make rings fast enough for my "buy it now" mentality (or stupidity). High demand means something, now don't it? Ever see loopy standards on back order? Hmmm. BTW-I forgot, what are you mounting all this on? A winnie? The two piece MK4s are winnie and the one piece loopy is remmy--or am I catalog challenged too?

Boltster,

add a rule: Never let yer wife see a badger (premier) invoice. My base/rings cost more than her tikka...and she dudn't like that one bit...I had to appease her with our second stealth!!!! Heheh. I win. Would you believe that Tikka whitetail .270 NIB came even up in a trade for a very, very used Rossi 357? Dude wanted that POS baaaaaaad. Who wuz I to argue? I still laugh when I see retail price lists...

For those who asked: Blake did not get his deer. His only shot was at a mover, and he just yanked that trigger sideways. Doe-fever. He got the Maple though. And twenty-five push-ups for Fuhhh-gettin' everything he was taught. Well this was his first year with a center fire, so we'll just fall back on "practice, practice, practice" for a while.

One last dumb question: Will the short action Model 7 fit a SA 700 stock?

And where can I find metal bottoms to git rid of that plastic? Maybe I should call George and go whole hawg...boy deserves a decent stick for puttin' up with his dad...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:18:58 (ZULU)

'lito-- Clearly you are right,I did completely miss the point of your previous post(December 9, 2002,21:17:56 ZULU). But since you raised the issue, in that post you did not mention complete rifles- you specifically said "actions". You certainly did not say anything about putting the original barrel back on it once all the work was done. Now THAT WOULD BE DUMB. Please help me out by telling me where I can buy a "custom" action for less than it costs to "accurize" or "blueprint" a Rem or Win or whatever action.

Perhaps, just perhaps,there has been a time or two that you have been "damn silly" or "dumb" and spent some money on having an OTR ACTION fixed to make it shoot better. In your post ( referenced above) the issue of resale value was an after thought. And buy the way how often do the people here make an expenditure for a product or service (i.e.;action work) where resale value trumps how the rig SHOOTS. I have to think that the question of "how much can I sell it for" rarely , if ever, comes into play. In addition ,what about all the aftermarket stuff that is readily available (and CHEAP) for that lowly OTR action. Does Marty make bases for Brand X custom action? What about a stock for this beast? If the custom action costs less and is better than fixing a Rem or Win why don't George or Jerry or any of the other top tactical smiths prefer them. Why are the vast majority of 1000 yard benchresters using OTR actions that have been worked over.

Perhaps you do need a friggin El Breako from this stuff.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:35:46 (ZULU)

Mike Miller...

>"Lito, first something nice. Just saw a new BDC for the MK4 from Leupold. Its marked for 190's 300wm and goes to 1300 yards. You do that? If so the moas built in are good to go. Can't wait for mine to get here this week."<

Yeah... I do that. It took me 3 years of beating up on them (Garth in particular)... and for them to make my changes, but it was worth it... the new cams play like they're guided missles ;)))

I have a M3-LR on the .308 M24, and a MK4-M3 on the .300WM M24, and with either, if I see it, it faw down, go boom!

As to trued actions... lookie. If a good smith takes a good OTR action and builds a good rifle, it will shoot very well. If the action is poorly made, then it MAY benefit from cleaning up, but likely it will shoot the same either way.

I doubt anyone has done a blind study on it, but if you take a good clean M70 or M700 action, and barrel it with a premium Schneider or Pak-Nor... shoot it, then take it apart, and clean up the action, put it together again and shoot it, I doubt that there would be any significant improvement, and it could go worse.

Much of this VooDoo comes from the Benchrest crowd, and you know how anal they can be.

As a craftsman I would prefer to work on a "Clean" action... for my own sticks, I first cut the ejector spring to 0.95" on all Rems and Win pushfeeds... then I polish the bolt face to a mirror finish (the fired primers look like little mirrors with a dimple in the middle).

I polish the bolt ways if they are rough, and do a list of other clean ups. All of this makes the riffle more pleasent to own and shoot, but does nothing to improve accuracy

An action that is so off that it really needs to have the bolt redone, or the barrel threads chased or recut... is so off that I wouldn't want to put more money into it. Just sell it and find another action. I'm sure that some will disagree, but I have many rifles (both Rems and Wins) that will shoot under .20" consistantly, and their actions are box stock.

As to the weaver style bases from Lupita... I like the QRW for setting up 1" scopes with the Burris "Signature ZEE" rings. On tac riffles, for the MK4-M3's I prefer the MK4 one piece base, cuz it's much lower than the Badger, and it has no taper (the MK4-M3 needs a flat base). For the M3-LR's I prefer the Badger bases.

rod...

>"You certainly did not say anything about putting the original barrel back on it once all the work was done."<

That's because I was responding to a comment about having a Rem "Bluprinted" to correct an elevation problem... there was no talk of getting a new barrel and doing a total rebuild.

If I had an action that was so bad that it needed more that a polishing of the rails and minor cleaning up of little stuff, I would NEVER put money into it to get it re-threaded... that's like putting warped heads on a racing Porsche engine... if you have to do a total re-machining to get it right, it's the wrong action to start with.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:49:08 (ZULU)

Undude,

Now I've got 5 o' your slings.

To all,

If your still using some other sling than a Tactical Intervention Sling... Well, to put it nicely, "You're WRONG!"

I spent a lotta years w/ Uncle Sam's Mis-guided Children using the issue sling for rifle qual. This Undude rig is the cat's ass. I've been using my first one for 2 years now. Still tighter'n a weddin' night pri#*. Not to mention FAST.

The preceding was an unashamed, unbiased, objective plug for a good friend's product. ;o)

Semper-Fi.

Spud.

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:01:59 (ZULU)

Here is a link on the lack of commitment to the offense in OEF:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021209-15741127.htm

Since two of the principals in this thing have crossed my path over the years, I am inclined to take this at face value.

Grrrrrrrrrr.

Thought for the day: If you want to run for office--then take off the uniform and do it!

Disclaimer: Thoughts for the day and links to the times are in no way meant to imply that anyone in particular is a farkin' political ass...that would be improper.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:04:08 (ZULU)

Wes,

I wasn't trying to assign my pussified shooting preference to anyone else ;)) I wouldn't have a custom 300WM or a 338 Lapua built,,, cause I'm a recoil pussy. The fact that you shot that Sako without a break releases you from "recoil pussy" status. I'd have just stood there and watched,, thinkng of how it would feel if my color bone actually touched the inside of my shoulder blade.

Custom actions for the cost of a Remington/Winch + truing? Stolle Panda, $900, RPA Quadlite, $650, Nesika Bay (entry action) $1000. None of these have triggers,, but they are all perfect from the factory. You'll need to consider a custom inlet on your McMillan though,,, as none of these workie with a Rem/Win/Sav/Rug inlet except the quadlite and it needs to be pushed forward and the lug recess needs to be modified. Alex Sitman can do you up a stock that made exactly for you, from LOP to the distance of the trigger from the pistol grip, etc,,, But it'll cost ya $800.

Bench resters may use rems/win's etc... but the top prone shooters are using the above mensioned actions, plus CG's, AI's, Paramounts, swifts, Gilkes Ross, etc... The 40X's are the bottom of the line actions for the serious prone competitors. The guys like me,, who really just go to play and have fun, shoot rem's and winch's... the big boys bring toys that cost more than my truck, and they win. Course,, they'd beat me with a factory Savage,, so take that w/a gr of Varget. (salt is bad for my BP)

JR,,

You're in the land of RPA and AI's. Pick a couple up and see what you can make with them. ;))

FatBoy...

Been away for a week with no laptop so............

Camp McCoy Shoot -

What, where, when, who, why?

Peeing In A Wetsuit -

Nope. Won't even go there.

Atlanta, Georgia -

My son and his momma are most likely going to move there to open up his new business. Because of my background, they've asked me to help out with the financial stuff once a month, for a nice fee, of course! If I like what I see there, I might seriously consider moving out of Chad Land.

Do any of youse Hawgs live in the Atlanta area? Can anyone direct me somewhere to check out Georgia's firearms laws and firearms friendliness? How 'bout Atlanta area shooting facilities?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:34:42 (ZULU)

Hey Moe !

How far is Boca from Ft. Myers ? Will be there doing some waterborne stuff first week in January.

Later dude,

BKS

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:40:53 (ZULU)

Fatboy, no slam here, please don't take it that way. Just want to make something clear on those actions you listed. Unless there's something I don't know, they're all single shots. No magazines at all. I've been TOLD that the RPA can be had as a magazine, but I've never SEEN one.

I know you were making a point, and well made it was. Just didn't want folks to think you were talking base actions for what most would consider tactical rifles. Now let's see how many of these bellycrawlers want to live with the One Shot mentality LOL.

When I start shooting possibles, then I'll THINK about a CG. Until then, it would be a case of a sows ear shooting an empty silk purse.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:51:33 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I know what you mean about Premier Recipt, the wife didn't thing the price of the new Stealth was bad. But was shocked to see the price for the scope, MK4 rings, Badger base & Mildot master. Ouch!!

But then again when I came home with a real nice 9 pointer with my muzzleloader the first thing she said was "Boy that sure would look nice over the fireplace". I will never understand what makes Woman think anything is a good or bad idea.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:55:03 (ZULU)

Moe - Georgia Firearms Laws:

Hey, who says VPC aint good for nothing?

"Georgia Firearm Laws

No licensing or registration requirements related to purchase or possession of any firearms.

No waiting period for purchase of handguns, shotguns, or rifles.

There are no age restrictions related to possession of rifles or shotguns.

Handgun possession by persons less than 18 years of age is a misdemeanor for a first-time offense, a felony for a second-time offense. Exemptions from the prohibition on handgun possession by persons less than 18 years of age exist for attendance at a hunter's or firearms safety course, target practice at a shooting range, and other similar activities."

Sounds like a might friendly place to be....

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:10:48 (ZULU)

Jaeger,

Youse completely correct mang. This was a discussion myself and another shooter I highly respect had. Many seem to think the solid floor design makes for a stiffer action. A stiffer action (supposedly) makes for a more accurate rifle.

Is it true?? Shit,, I don't know. We both came to the conclusion that a Remington 700, A Winchester, a Nesika Bay, A Viper Python and a host of others can, and have, shoot 200 scores at 1000y. The Single shot may give you the edge when it comes to X count, if you have the skills to capitolize, and that's what many of these matches come to. It'll be a long time, if ever, before I see higher scores due to my action,, but they are beautiful,,, and smooth as silk.

As you said,, no repeaters. Nesika is coming out with one and there's always Dakota or Prarie Dog Gun Works, and the AI repeaters, etc... but like you said,,, a target rifle does not a tactical rifle make.

Moe,

You move to Hotlanta and you're only 2.5 hours from our monthly 1K shoots, about 2 hours from JW's 5 or so HardRock 1K matches, a couple hours from the 600 yard Benning matches, 2 hours from Oak Ridge and their monthly and weekly 1K matches and Palma shoots. And I haven't even touched on the highpower circuit. Chatanooga will have the 500 yard line up this year, we have 100 thru 1K, Oak Ridge has 100 to 1K and there are many, many small 200 reduced courses,, but I MUCH prefer the full course so I don't remember any.

My Father lived in Douglasville before moving back down to Florida. He got his Carry permit in 60 days. Very easy, and reciprocol with many, if not all, of Florida's recipricol states. They have numerous gun shows in Hotlanta and the surrounding 'burbs also. The trouble with Atlanta,, TRAFFIC!!!!!! Best to got to work around 4am and go home about 1PM (skip lunch!!) because the traffic is absolutely HORRIBLE. Other draw back,, state taxes.

Dean Miller,, where you at mang?? You can fill Moe in much better than I.

FatBoy...

Ken M,

Email me a contact phone number so we'se can get coordinated on coordinations. Once the holidays are off, we'll want to push fast on all the ankle-biters in setting this up. So far, a capabilities drill--if available (units training would help there). Post orientation...too easy--these guys are proud. I do this for edumacators all the time. It ain't a bad dog-and-pony. Then, shoots on the KD and maybe the multi-purpose and of course, pop-ups and whatever else we can schedule. The state patrol academy is here, as well as a MAITS site; might squeeze those in.

Might be good to open a discussion on how many days/ which days work best for max participation. ie-tues thru sunday, or whatever...

Chris,

any advice you may have for this would be a big help too.

Joe U,

Yer initials, JLU remind me of my last squad in the duece. I had a Fillipino and a Hispanic Team leader under me. The phonetic alphebet was a challenge for me over the radio! One dude always said "Julu" for zulu. When I see your 'JLU" I can hear that in the back of my mind...that and Roy-yer. I bumped into one of those guys years later while fishing on sheep creek in Alaska. I didn't recognize him until he started mimicking himself overthe radio! I died laughing. But I came back as me.

EEEEEZA Roy-yer, ober!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
FT McCoy, WI, USofA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:25:43 (ZULU)

"blueprinted" actions et al.................the only truing ya need is the lugs....gently. there's a big ass spring in one side of the bolt that's gonna cant the cartridge anyway unless you're building a game gun.

Square up the face so that the lug matches up all pretty an stuff...............

The important part is the chamber.........cut it square with the bore, cut it one time., and do it ALL with the finish reamer so only one tool has to be aligned.

Yeah, you gotta buy a new reamer for the shop, but then it's your 300 buck barrel, so what's another 80 or so on top of that.

Life gets real consistant cold/warm/clean/fouled.

Some old dude with 27 world records gave me that little tip.........as we were rebarreling my stick in his shop over a weekend. forget his name......Ed something or other.

Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:39:19 (ZULU)

FatBoy;

Hate to hear about your bp. I'm told Varget is good for all ailments. It has to inhaled in smoke form from a brass container to work well, but the effects are supposed to be excellent. It soothes my nerves.

LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:54:50 (ZULU)

Georgia Gun Laws:

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws.asp?FormMode=Detail&R=GA

Moe,

Do you have instant messenger or icq ? I live in Buford which is about 40 miles Northeast of Atlanta and I will be happy to give you a bunch of info..

We're about 2 hours from the 1k Match in Opelika, about 2 Hours from the Ft Benning Matches, 3 Hours from Chris' Matches, 2 Hours From Augusta's 1k Matches... There is a 600 Yard ANYANY Match near us in Dawsonville which is about 1 hour from me. Also there is a second 600 yard ANYANY down at Ft Benning operated by the Chatahoochee County Club.

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 04:05:47 (ZULU)

I would like to know if any can tell me where to buy a remington 700P. i am trying to decide what kind of rifle i want. Either a standart 700P .308, 700P TWS .308, or a 700P LTR. But i would like to see them before i buy them or a least find a site that sells them.

I am civilian but am still very interested in this gun. Can someone tell me where to buy it.

Thanks for your time

Brian Nichols

Brian Nichols <bcnvirus@aol.com>
East Bank, WV, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 04:20:56 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon....My particular Howa is holding up just fine. Last round count was, let's see, somewhere in the 500 region, so I don't know how it's going to be at the 1k mark, but so far, so good. If'n I do my part, it's usual to make little jaggedy holes at 100, best group so far out to 500 was 1.7". Still chrono's 2660 out of the 20" tube with 46 gr Varget and Sierra 168 gr HPBTM.

Bolt, I just gave up and got a regular gun case with a key. Wiffe would have a fit if she couldn't get to "her" Howa whenever she wanted. Of course, she says it's "hers" and I just will hafta be satisfied with buying another one for me. Trick is, get a good one the first time. That goes for rifles, too.....

Cris, try more beer for the blood pressure problems. Might not work, but you won't care near as much. Finally going to get to burn some powder in the morning. Dirty Steve still won't go, mumbled something about "making up lost time" now that Irene's back from a year Active duty. Go figure.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:04:53 (ZULU)

Litto, good job on the bDC's for Leupold!

As to trued actions. Honestly I have no fng clue who is right on this. I spent a day with Jerry Ric watching him bed a rifle. Man thats alot of work. He made sure everything was set in a mil, square, level and centered, you name it. He them milled the pillars and cut to perfect length on the mill. Made sure the action wa slevel in he stoock before evenb thinking about bedding. I mean if I saw anyone do this much work I would think it would cost 500-1000 to have it done.

I also saw all the work that goes into truing an actiopn and puttinga bbl and hamber in. Everything is set up perfect and the amountof work is unbelieveable. I know why he work shoots sub 1/2moa groups all day. Nothging is left to chance.

Now befoe I knew Jerry and George Gardner I just bought a stock, put in the drill press and made pillars out of heavy walled aluminum tubing. slapped it all together with Marine Tex and they always shot pretty well. Well a heck of alot better than a PSS.

I had severalmatch bbls screwed on without truing and they always shot well, but nothing I ever slapped together ever came close to a Rice or Gardner rifle. I mean with thier work its always one hole, in the same place everytime. I dont know why I just know it works.

So the answer is? I dont know why just that having the tricks doen makes it work.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:18:53 (ZULU)

Just figured out why the kittywhacker is coming across short. For decades he's gotten used to cold women, now everything around him is so cold even the kitties are wearing parkas. You still popping the fat ladies overgrown rats, or you giving them a break since they're wearing sky blue camo down coats? Hey, if you get bored, you can always try running them down in an old pinto LOL

Seriously, way to go on the BDC's.

Roger that on the solid bottomed actions. I might comment on this if I ever get one. Don't hold your breath though, just don't see it in my near future. Unless Wes wants to renig on a deal. Always a day late and a dollar short.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:49:00 (ZULU)

Mike,

I'm trying to get that picture out of my head of you, in blond ghillie, with a stock in a drill press, the CARNAGE!!! ;)) silliness...

And, it's not that much work when you get the perfect set-up... Once you get it right, and get a few thousand under yer belt, perfection becomes as natural as pickin' yer nose.. What throws you off is when you have to show someone else how to do it right the first time, or expect them to anyway...

Chris,

RPA is on the menu for this summer......I think RPA might be having a magazine, if not now then very soon, as they are trying to tap the tactical market. They have plans for an RPA tactical rifle, and a SS won't do for that. Not sure what they took over to Canada for the .338 la-pooa trials.

Where's that 'smith from Florida? yoo hoo!!

off to groovyville, sometimes work can be so bore-ing (I crack me up)

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 06:57:44 (ZULU)

Optical Camouflage

http://www.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/oc.html

Some day, your 'camo' may consist of a white reflective suit, a digital camera, and a projector or two.

The videos are pretty impressive.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 07:22:29 (ZULU)

Chris...

Aw Shit! Are we all speaking english here? I NEVER said that you could get a custom action for $500... I said by the time you have bought a rifle for the action, and then had someone spend the time to fix it, you would be into it for more than a custom action. Damn, you can buy a used 40-XB and build on that.

And rod... none of the serious longrange shooters are building their rifles around a hunting grade M700. That would be like building a race car around a VW engine.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 11:51:43 (ZULU)

Rangefinder review,

Aimpoint 2000? This is the one from Sportsman Guide. Optics are fair. The ranging tests yesterday (bright sun) were disappointing. It's supposed to be overcast today so I'll test again. Early opinion.... not worth the the $279.95 at all. The numerical display is a VERY light blue. Washes out in bright light easily. More later. Will check the speed measurement against the radar in one of the squads today.

'lito,

"As a craftsman I would prefer to work on a "Clean" action... for my own sticks, I first cut the ejector spring to 0.95" on all Rems and Win pushfeeds... then I polish the bolt face to a mirror finish (the fired primers look like little mirrors with a dimple in the middle)."

"I polish the bolt ways if they are rough, and do a list of other clean ups. All of this makes the riffle more pleasent to own and shoot, but does nothing to improve accuracy"

How do you do this? Any special tools? What polishing compounds and such. I've used Flitz metal polish on a .223 chamber before. Applied with a Qtip and cordless drill. :))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 12:17:41 (ZULU)

'Lito-san,

I never meant to imply you said you could get a custom action for $500. If I read you correct,, you said it's silly to buy a $500 rifle and then spend $400 more getting it rebuilt, cause you still got a $500 rifle (or a $70 action ;)). I agree,,, and was just showing guys that for the price of a new rifle + 400 you can get a custom action sans trigger, that WILL be perfect in every way.

What I forgot to mension is that most of these actions have the scope bases machined into them. No need to worry about offset holes ;) Only drawback is no weaver slots in 90% of them, but they do make rails that will slide on and bolt down. Gives you a picatinny rail, but also raises the cheek weld.

Me,, I buy my actions at the guns shows. Wish I could get them for $70!!! Cheapest I've been able to manage is $275 for a early 70's M70LA,, but I passed cause man it was rougher than a corn cob... $300 is the standard rate for a Remington 700 here,, and about $350 for a Winchester.

JR,

You going with a quadlock or a quadlite repeater? I Think it would have to be the quadlock,, but they're both very short for the magnum loadings.

FatBoy...

Hawgs,

Folks we're scheduled to copy the snipercountry site to what will be it's permanent hosting home for at least the next five years. The connectivity will be great. During that time - I will stop the snipercountry site service - so the transfer will go alot faster... and no posts will be lost. During this time --- you will not be able to see the site..... if all goes well later this afternoon/evening.... it oughta really blaze.

take care gents....

ken hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, us of a - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 12:43:07 (ZULU)

Bolt..Another rule;

NEVER tell the wife that guns are a good investment! Sooner or later they will want to know when you are going to cash in.

I tell the wife that my purchasing guns is a form of public service as every one I keep off the street the bad guys can't misuse for some evil purpose.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 13:02:28 (ZULU)

Markwell...

>"NEVER tell the wife that guns are a good investment! Sooner or later they will want to know when you are going to cash in."<

HA!... I hear that. My Ex tried that during the divorce. Tell them that it's wholesome hobby that keeps you away from other women and various sins. That works sometimes.

Chris...

It's Rem that pays about $75 for the action... we pay a bit more ;)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 13:20:18 (ZULU)

Catman..

I know what your "Trying" to say on the Rem and Winchester actions. You can put a lot of money into one and still not have the quality of a custom one with nearly the same price.

Chris..

Nasika Bay "Does" have a repeater and I believe one of the others you mentioned has one too. For some reason I think it was a Hall but could have been a Stolle or a Panda too. I just don't remember now. I had looked into getting one years back but just couldn't justify that much money for what I do.

I got out to shoot again last night. It was 45 and only a 5 mph wind which is dead calm for here. I found that the 142s would not fit into my action at the OAL I had them at. When seated in to fit the mag they weren't nearly as accurate. However the 140AMAX tightened right up when seated a little deeper, now go figure that one out!!!

I shot three groups off the bench at 200yds. The one with 142s went into a 1.280 with 4 in a .523 at mag length. The two groups with 140 AMAXs went into a .788 with 4 in, get this, a .222!!!! The other group was .67 something. These are actual group sizes "NOT" MOAs. This is while fire forming new Lapua brass that was sized down to the 260. Just ask me if I love this new Kreiger barrel!!!(HA) Hell double (HA)!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 14:48:18 (ZULU)

So Ken, what you are saying is that we will still be here you just won't be able to see us for a little while, right ?

Fitting for a site named Snipercountry ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 15:01:06 (ZULU)

Howdy folks, long time no read.

Wes, Fatboy and any other 6,5x.284 lovers...

i want some of your insights on an idea i have.

Like some of you maybe know, i own a Sako TRG 22. And i am very happy about it. I was also gonna buy me a new custom stick in the above mentioned calibre.

"Unfortenately" i joined the police force last year and i now earn about a third less than i did when i was still in the Army.

So no custom stick money for next year.

I heard about a guy who had also a TRG22 but with a 6,5x.284 barrel. Since i know of a gunsmith who can do this for not tomuch money, i am really considerring a rebarrel job for next season.

What do you guys think of this, is it worth the money or do i risk turning my good shooting .308 in a piece of junk??

All thoughts apreciated,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 16:17:15 (ZULU)

Catman or Undude..

Could you guys either post or send me the data off the 190 dial for the MK4s and will they be making the dial for the M3 long range??? Thanks!!!

State gun laws>>>

If you move to South Dakota they check to see if you own a gun, if not, they give you one!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:23:38 (ZULU)

<<<<<<<State gun laws>>>

If you move to South Dakota they check to see if you own a gun, if not, they give you one!!!>>>>>>

How do explain Daschle, did he move there from California?

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:54:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

a rant:

I posted that link reference timid application of force vs. potential casualties. Thought about the phenomena all night. Can anyone blame these guys for "what-iffing" an operation into oblivion? Look at the shit-storm from Mog--bad karma. The media just loves to portray our forces as nearly invincible--so to be the first US commander since Vietnam to send a boat load of body bags to Dover ain't high on anyone's agenda. It is a vicious cycle--media, politics, zero-defect officers...Politically, we wilt on the first hint of casualties--lookit Clinton sending that plane to pick up addid just after the raid...one day mortal enemy, next a deal making peace broker. Go figure. The media is convinced that desert storm is the new norm for US warfare, and anything less would be "failure" at its worst. Officers, we take our cues from the Pols and the winds of opinion in the media...and react accordingly. For better or worse. Most of us know that war is a place to get hurt--some of us can't bring ourselves to "give the word" anymore. Whudda sorry ass state.

The good news is Rummy seems to have no patience for that kind of careerism. And by gawd, it will take a hard-ass like him to begin the change needed in our very thinking. I think the media will come around after a while--but we need to get past them. Ya know, in pounds of flesh for acres of realestate--TET was a bigger victory than St. Lo; just try to find that in print anywhere! I am inclined to give some benefit of doubt to these commanders, if only to understand why they act (or not) in 'stan. I can't excuse them--but I understand. Now, we need to say bye-bye and get some one who isn't worried about himself---yes, worry for the troops, but not himself. Mission, troops. I wonder what it is about stars that cloud that issue. The key to command is to focus down...know your task, your troops and do it. Hell, that's what the boss wants...but we have a bunch focusing "up" the chain. Overt or subtly; these guys suck the egg and get promoted.

Grrrrrrr, rant off.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:58:53 (ZULU)

Nick...

When we went out to South Dakota shootin' P'Dogs, we took a bunch of pistols with us.

So we dropped into the local sheriff and asked for applications for a pistol permit... and he said "What's that?"

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 18:04:07 (ZULU)

Gents, my .02 worth...

Action trueing: If you are going to spend money to have a custom match grade tube installed it's a must and doesn't add that much to the cost. I have rifles both ways, but the ones that shoot best are the "trued" actions. Personal choice, again. I know what mine is...

Chris, the .338 Lapua...I like it, can't help it if you are recoil sensitive...at those levels almost anyone would be...if it helps we'd still think you're a pussie...;-)

Marco, the 6.5 X .284 vs the .308 in your Sako: I'd shoot the daylights out of the .308 and then rebarrel when shot out. Unless you have a real need for the flatter trajectory, etc., of the 6.5 X .284.

Make sure you have more than 2.800" magazine length. Not familiar with the magazine length on your rifle.

More as time permits.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 19:07:21 (ZULU)

Nick..

We all have a cross to bear and he's ours!! I don't think he will make it again. He has suckered the people into believing that he is in a position to do them so much good now. Most have seen his true colors and hopefully will do the right thing and dump his liberal ass.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:23:38 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

<<The important part is the chamber.........cut it square with the bore, cut it one time., and do it ALL with the finish reamer so only one tool has to be aligned....>>>

I both agree and disagree with that statement...I prefer to have 2 reamers to chamber, a rougher and a finish reamer, both are cartridge specific. It all depends on your set up, but if both reamers are piloted, and the work is running true to the tools, it's all good.. Both reamers MUST be piloted of course, I use the same pilot for both reamers.. You can't mount a chamber reamer in the Jacobs chuck, either use a reliable floating reamer holder or the 'hold on to your ass' method of using the lathe dog while driving the reamer with a center. Anyway, the less work the finish reamer has to do, the betterer.. I've chambered both ways, with the finish reamer alone, and the 2 reamers, and I do find the latter for most rifle cartridges faster, as well as easier on the tool.. There is NO NEED to buy a new reamer for the 'smith every time you rebarrel, that's just ridiculous, not with the quality reamers out today, plus he's charging you for the tooling and use of anyway, he's really takin the piss if you're supplying HIM with tools.. PLUS, heh this post was going to take about 2 sentences to begin with, brand spankin' new chamber reamers don't always cut that well, sometimes they need a little TLC, read stone, or a break in chamber or two before they perform like they should, then they cut like butter. Would you like your barrel to be the break in barrel? Use a reputable upstanding 'smithy and he'll have the right tool for the job..

Pat,

Good to see you finally got some sense in ya and joined the cut-rifled barrel club. Couldn't a picked a better barrelmaker, top notch folk that Kreiger is.. I promise I won't tell you 'I TOLD YOU SO', promise..

oh, and finding someone who voted for Daschle is like finding someone who voted for Clinton. No one will admit to it. It's an enigma how in a state as conservative as SoDak, we could elect as liberal as you could get Douschel.. But, I've always heard that SoDak elects our Federal representatives Democrats to bring the money in to the state, and Republicans in the State house and governorship to spend it..

2 weeks 'til Santy Claws comes down the chimney, can you believe how fast this year went by? like a blur!!

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:36:24 (ZULU)

'lito,

U have mail. n/a

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:38:26 (ZULU)

>>>>>>"When we went out to South Dakota shootin' P'Dogs, we took a bunch of pistols with us.

So we dropped into the local sheriff and asked for applications for a pistol permit... and he said "What's that?"<<<<<<

Be still my heart! Hell will freeze over before those words are ever spoken in Joisy. :(

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:04:17 (ZULU)

JR,

Makes good sense.

I volunteered to buy the reamer........now it's mine...all mine! :) I've cut the last 4 barrels with new reamers; I do stone them before use, just because it seems like a good idea....and had excellent (repeatable) results doing it this way.

Jacobs chuck is sure a bad idea...................

Joe M,

Was speaking with Major sister in law (ring knocker) in HHC in Kuwait, dumbass career colonel assured the troops they'd all be home before 12/20 this year. Clint Smith musta be thinking of this guy when he said some folks need to be shot.

Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:14:11 (ZULU)

Spent all night in the woods, kind of chilly out, -11C all night, saw a large boar, but as the pig rut is in full swing and he'd be full of testosterone and the meat would be stinking I decided to not to shoot him, ( all you can do with a boar like that is sell it to a game dealer who will pass it on to some one who can't taste the difference),

Any of you guys noticed a difference in Cold Bore Shot when the barrel realy is cold? not that it would make a difference at pig range, but its just something i was thinking about at 03.00 this morning, when i wanted to drink some of the coke id taken up the tree stand with me, the damn bottle was frozen solid.

Blueprinting-accurising whatever you want to call it, squaring up the lugs and keeping CHS to a minimum seems to improve Rem 700's.But we could discuss the advantages or likely improvements 'till the cows come home. If resale value is what you are after, then no matter how much money you stick in a Rem 700, a Win 70 or a Howa, they remain what they are when it comes to selling them, just another factory rifle, its a case of horses for courses, and individual preferences and budgets, if money is no problem, what the hell, me I take great pleasuer in turning up to a range and seeing the wide eyed looks on the faces of the custom rifle(read action) croud when i start poping all the bullets into the same hole with my self built , heym barreled Rem 700, using factory hunting ammo(its even better when i do it with the 450 marlin), wether i could stay infront at any great distance is a different matter( i lack time, practice and facilities). Practice and confidence in the equipment you are using cannot be over looked, If spending big bucks on fancy actions give confidence in equipment so be it, like wise, if shooting several barrels out in a factory improved R700 or W70 breeds another kind of confidence, then, so be it too.

Having a good barrel, with a good chamber(on centre-minimum CHS,, nicely cut and finnished) and a good crown, then holding in the case in the chamber so it doesn't move when fired, will 99.9% of the time get you decent respectable accuracy, if you have the action and bolt absolutely square to the barrel and chamber (and case head) it is bound to be better and give more consitent accuracy.

It would be interesting, if all the actions mentioned on the roster had the same threads and we could screw 1 barrel(the same barrel) into them and then see if the accuracy improved or varied between each action, that might be an eye opener.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:20:02 (ZULU)

Chris

Thanks for the pointer on keeping the barrel channel clean.

Eduardo Cotto <Eduardocotto@hotmail.com>
Bay City, Michigan, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 23:02:08 (ZULU)

PeteL,

Piggie ranges' CBS is moot for the application like you said, but if'n it gets any colderer (ALOT colder), petroleum based lubes will lock the firing pin. We dealt with that in Alaska shootin' Bou off of snowshoes. Man, that kinda' cold ain't right! I thought I "wiped" all the oil res off my pin, but musta left some. I was the last one to go "click" but I was also alone over the kills at the time when the wolves came in. Helluva time to have the Sako sitting out the action. My 629 was under gortex, down, poly, and cotton. You shoulda seen me:

1) strip

2) shoot

3) get dressed

Talk all you want about video split second draws--I'd have beat anyone that night on the Yukon! I dunno how cold it was, but the REI thermometer had all the mercury in the ball under the -65F mark! Oil becomes crystallyne somewhere down there...oh, made $75 bucks on the wolves too. Worst fun I ever had :)))

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 00:14:22 (ZULU)

OK,guys I am trying to remember a product talked about on this site a while ago to get rid of the "SPROING" noise in AR15 buttstock when fired.I seem to remember it being made by TUBB but all I can find is the CWS.Is that it?Thanks for any replies in advance,you can send the info off the board if you like.

Phil Andrews <Bladewurk@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:00:02 (ZULU)

Joe, we don't get that cold here, (that don't mean i won't get hunting anywhere that will be that cold though.. ) I think we had -18 C + the wind chill last winter, but thats about as low as it gets. at the 50m or so piggies tend to be at when shot out of the stand at night, providing the rifle goes bang, all should be ok. But i was wondering about a longer shot, between 150 to 300m+ or so, i do hunt some areas where that would be definate a possibility, i don't suppose the cold would put me out of the vitals on a pig, but it may on a fox or a racoon. I only use synthetic lubricant and haven't had anything freeze up so it wouldn't function yet, I've had sights full of snow though(iron and scope) and icicles hanging off the barrel,

Stalking at the moment is about impossible, everything frozen and the damn leaves give too much sound, but i have found that irratic movement, shuffling my feet, stopping and shuffling some more tends to have the effect that animals wait to see whats comming, I try to make my footsteps sound like a pig or a badger rooting among the leaves, the odd grunt increases the effect. I have to get some whites before any snow comes.

Marc, you never answer your phone, what you doing 17th Dec, fancy a driven boar hunt?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:09:46 (ZULU)

I figured I just had to get in on this one:

#1. Who is paying $400 to get an action trued??? That is ridiculous; it’s normally $300-$350 to have a Blank Installed which includes truing of the receiver. $100 is more like it for the action truing part. At least that’s what I charge.

#2. It is important that the barrel be Threaded/Chambered on center preferably on a steady rest as far away from the chuck as possible. (To eliminate even the slightest error in the chuck, and give the best mathematical advantage. with a sharp reamer taking time to clean out the chips every .100 or so. .010 on final cut. (By the way piloted roughers are great and save the life of the finisher.)

Here is where Lito and some of you are missing the point.

Let’s say we have a perfect barrel. Done exactly right. A perfectly centered chamber, straight/square threads min headspace.

Depending on what reamer/chamber you use there is built in slop. (I.e. .338-.344 Nk size. in 308 and the same goes with the body of the chamber. But when you headspace at the Min Spec's, as we do when building tack drivers the bolt face is holding the case snug against the shoulder in the chamber. Now: If your receiver has threads that are out of alignment. Lugs that are not square, A receiver ring that is uneven (being saw cut by Remington) or the bolt face not square. Where does this leave your cartridge????? Its shoved over to one side of the chamber causing the round to become unaligned with the bore. Hopefully you are all still with me, a drawing would show this better but I am not that computer inclined yet.

This would be why it is important to also completely true all 4 points of contact in your receiver when having a custom tube installed. You are paying allot of $ for that tube I think you and your Barrel Maker deserve the best launch platform possible.

My $5 Worth

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
N.Kansas City, MO , USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:17:16 (ZULU)

Dean, Byron, Chris -

Thanks for the info on Atlanta. I'm not planning on a "right now" move, though. Heck, the boy doesn't even have a location for his store yet, maybe in a few weeks.

Looks like there's lots of action within a couple hours driving, which is cool. Number one son may have his place in the metro area but I'd probably be looking at something more in the sticks for myself. You know, something I can build my own 1K range on! That would be velly, velly cool! :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:10:16 (ZULU)

George. isn't that what i said?

In my experience, the biggest problem with Rem 700's is the way excessive headspace they come with. Of course i only play with em as a hobby these days and haven't worked on near as many as you, but i've had good results removing the factory barrel, trueing the lugs and reciever end and the bolt face,(most only needed work on the lugs but some had the reciever faced off at funny angles to the centre line of the action, as if some one just held the reciever in the chuck and took the end off instead of using a mandrel) taking the barrel shoulder back (so the barrel screws in more) in order to have the case seated under slight pressure when the bolt is closed, and yes, putting the factory barrel back in, ok, they are a bitch to clean, will never shoot as good as a good barrel, but for guys who can't or wont pay for a good barrel, especialy if all they want is an accurate hunting rifle, the difference between out of the box, and accurised is about 50% smaller groups 100% better consitency.Most( by no means all) Rem 700's i have played with would hold between 1"and 1.5"out the box with factory ammo, sorting the reciever, minimising the head space but keeping the factory barrel will half that,I currently have 3 Rem 700's, 2 have Heym barrels and one has a Rem factory tube ( that i begged in order to swap from 22.250 to 308) The Heym barrels way out class the factory thing,( both in accuracy and ease of cleaning), but even it will hold 1/2"groups (5 shot) with factory hunting ammo, when i (in the distant future) have some spare cash (and aren't buying bricks tiles and DIY tools with it) I'd like to rebarrel it to 450 Marlin, but I wonder if it will feed ok? People can knock the Rem 700, and yes the factory certainly do have Quality Control issues to sort out, but it is the yard stick by which many many other rifles are judged, you can get a shed load of parts and accessories for it, there are many smiths building excellent rifles on it and it is a handy and good looking rifle. Custom actions are just more of an investment, rifles built on them tend to hold thier value more than those built on an accurised factory action. I think if i was going to start again and buy the tooling, i'd probably go for a Sako action over the Remington, but as i have all i need to sort the Rem700's out, i'll just keep using them(untill we get the 5 gun limit).

Guy asking about building on that Sako Forester action, shouldn't be a problem, McMillan has stocks (as far as i know) and getting it worked on or rebarreled should be no problem either.

Paul Cockerham - rings on way.

Marc, I'm buggered if i found that bolt stop yet.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:42:38 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln...........I just found one of those rare gems, go here http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/turnbo/toc.html#vol1

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:53:45 (ZULU)

We were all wrong ! In the latest copy of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement magazine you see that the Rem 700 based .280 Ackley Improved with a Loopy 3.5x10x50 is "Tactical Rifle Perfection!" Ok I guess we all have to sell our .308's, 300's, 6.5's and everything else to get one of these new sticks or were not en-vouge. How could we have known? How, How, How?

Joe M.- One of my hunting rifles is a S&W 1500 (AKA Howa 1500) in 30-06. I have about 1000 rds of factory ammo or so on it and it is holding up just fine.

Take care.

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, Cali, US of A - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:53:55 (ZULU)

Sinister,

You got mail re: Swedish Mauser target riffles.....

Later,

Rich

RichS. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:59:05 (ZULU)

*****Sniper Country Rifle Update*****

The deadline has come and gone, There will be 50 rifles built. 2 rifles will be auctioned off here in the future. (#1 and #2).

If you didnt get your money in the Mail by today, Im Sorry.

Stocks are on Order, Barrels are already in production and 50 Recievers are on the way.

Look to have all of them compleated by the end of May, (fingers crossed) so anyone wanting to shoot them in any of the spring shoots that are poping up will be ready.

By the way, going against recent opinions these rifles will have compleatly trued actions. LOL

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:23:13 (ZULU)

>>People can knock the Rem 700<<

Yes. And there's a reason "big green" is a very appropriate synonym now. Somewhat reminiscent of a festering bowl of dog snot, eh?

>>and yes the factory certainly do have Quality Control issues to sort out<<

That's putting it mildly, but OK.

>>but it is the yard stick by which many many other rifles are judged<<

Unless you believe what people say about the Great American Riflemans Rifle, the Winchester pre-'64 model 70.

>>you can get a shed load of parts and accessories for it, there are many smiths building excellent rifles on it and it is a handy and good looking rifle.<<

Reminds me of a discussion I had with a great engine builder about the Chevrolet versus Chrysler debates. Chrysler has never had the after market parts base that Chevrolet does. I was informed the reason for that was "with a Chrysler, you generally don't need them". If there's a world of doo-dads out there, odds are there's a reason. Just look at what you get with a stock Ruger 10/22, and all the doodads available for that rifle. Unless I am mistaken, the top speed in a sanctioned NASCAR race is still held by Chrysler.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:24:18 (ZULU)

And while I'm posting, hey Marty, what's the odds on getting those guys to chamber their 452 American in 17HMR?

And out of curiousity, what's the smallest case capacity standard chambered 17 cal centerfire cartridge? Those 17s are fun, but buying cartridges just goes against my grain.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:42:33 (ZULU)

To True or not to true...that is a dumb ass question!

I was going to post a bandwidth encompassing dissertation but I read George’s post

And all I can add is if you don’t want to do it right, that’s ok, you will be one less person we have to outshoot.

You tune a car, some people spend more money on…get this… Harley’s! than they do on guns…weird!!!

So if you don’t want to trick out your gun, ok buy me, I will wave to you from the winners circle.

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:46:27 (ZULU)

Gents,

The 6.5 X 08 Obermeyer data I promised some of you goes in the mail in the morning.

Just "pontificating" a bit. Cost of shooting: Say $600.00 for a premium barrel and installation. With a service life of 1500 rounds it's gonna cost you 40 cents per round in barrel life. With a life of 10,000 rounds it drops to 6 cents per rounds. Which just goes to show that the .308 does it's job economically and that most of us are cheapskates...:-)

Sako .338 goes out tomorrow. Hate to see it go, but plans for a repeater dictate otherwise.

Oregon rain/wind has started in earnest, today, in the Oregon coast mountain range. Gotta love it...

Oregon: "Where subguns are watercooled"...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:47:03 (ZULU)

Marty & George,

Thanks for your comments.... Much appreciated

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:02:02 (ZULU)

Jaeger, i knew there was a reason i liked the cherokee jeep, its chrysler right? I am though... ( Uncle George from Oz will turn in his grave) about to buy a Mitsubishi.

Marty, talking of tricking out guns, you ever get them alloy rings made i asked you about?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:37:32 (ZULU)

Peter, on the Jeep: That's now a Diamler. The I-6 on the Jeep is phenominal. The Cherokee is a framed truck with a well deserved good reputation, the Grand a unibody car. Additionally, the unibody comes with an 8 that is less than phenominal in all ways. There's someone on this site that has lots of experience with the Mitsus. Ask and ye shall receive.

Now how about some good 17 cal info!

We now return to your regularly scheduled shooting program

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:56:44 (ZULU)

Just heared that a shipment of scuds was held up on its way from Korea to Yemen..

Funny, the 4 space craft i fly for a living are also Daimler/Chrysler..OK who is the Mitsubishi guy? and whats a hard top for a SWB MK 2 Pajero cost, I'm looking at a V6 with a soft top, ( rather have the solid top but its in nice condition, has a warne winch and is cheap).

Anybody shot any/many game animals with the Hornady SST?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:13:01 (ZULU)

Joe M, you have mail, if you have not got it already.

As for the war non-fighting/career saving BS, that's why the officers should just give the order to execute and let us enlisted types take it from there. See no evil, hear no evil and you can still honestly tell the political scum that you're not aware of any terrorists being killed in ambushes or raids;-)

Joe S, that gun rag got it just about right, except it's a 280AI with a 10x Mk4M1 and it's based on a pre-64 M70, which still is the best rifle ever factory produced. Hopefully I'll get it soon before some other gun rag rips off one of my other ideas.

On NASCAR speedsters, the record is held by Bill Elliot in a Ford T-bird back before restrictor plates. Something like 212mph at Tallega IIRC. There was recently a stock block Hemi Superbird(might have been a Daytona) that reset the flying mile at 236mph or so. Stock parts in the engine and stock body with some duct tape. Super Stock '68 Cudas and Darts are still the fastest SS cars. High 8's at over 150mph in the 1/4mile. Don't even bother trying a Fuel class without a Hemi based motor. You'd have to be a rich lunatic to even get the engine to stay together. Last non-Chrysler based Hemi to win a Fuel Event was in '67, and that was a 427 SOHC Ford, which had hemispherical combustion chambers, so it was a rip off job too. Although it was a nicely done rip-off, it made plus/minus 647hp stock as a crate motor with a 4bbl. Between that and the Hemi, that was when NASCAR slammed the door on the engine wars of the late 60's. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
Occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:15:08 (ZULU)

Marty: "And all I can add is if you don’t want to do it right, that’s ok, you will be one less person we have to outshoot...So if you don’t want to trick out your gun, ok buy (sic) me, I will wave to you from the winners circle."

Given any reasonably good rifle, the greatest source of variability is - by a HUGE margin - the shooter.

Krieger/Stolle and a guy who reads catalogs vs. stock Winnie and guy who does his dry-firing and has internalized his wind reads and shooting manuals.

Ask me a tough one.

"The crate isn't important."______________________________Baron von Richtoven

"I am the music."_______________________________________________________Niragasi

"It ain't the car, it's the driver."__________________________Richard Petty

I like when the guys with the $6,000 sticks offer to help me get on the paper. It truly brings me pleasure.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:15:55 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

"We dealt with that in Alaska shootin' Bou off of snowshoes."

What wuz dem Caribou doin' on snowshoes? ;-)

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:19:24 (ZULU)

Wes,

Where is Blodgett? I drive to Corvallis pretty frequently these days, and wonder if we might hook up some Sunday afternoon.

Hope all's well,

Jim

Jim Liles <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:53:28 (ZULU)

CDC: "Krieger/Stolle and a guy who reads catalogs vs. stock Winnie and guy who does his dry-firing and has internalized his wind reads and shooting manuals."

Where does the guy with the Krieger/Stolle who does his dry-firing and has iternalized his wind reads and shooting manuals fall?????

I would say a cut above!!!! and definatly in the winners circle!!!!

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:54:04 (ZULU)

Jaeger, the 17 Squril, 22 hornet shortened and Imp necked to 17cal.

Marty himself built a CZ 452 in 17 HMR but CZ itself has yet to follow his lead. I think he is working on it.

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:59:30 (ZULU)

JC,

They wuz a-gittin' away!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 06:09:31 (ZULU)

So long as we're quoting,, and talking racing,, sorta,,

"All the money in the world won't make a pig into a race car,,,,, but it'll make a damn fast pig." author? Some guy who spent to much souping up a Chevette I bet ;))

I don't know about all the truing,, but I like to know it's been done. Will it make my Remichester shoot as good as a Nesika, a Stolle Etc?? Maybe,, but it'll still be a pig. Course,, my pig has a 7-3 record for winning it's class in the shoots it enters,,, so it'd guess it'd be considered "A damn fast pig" ;))

Pete,

We drove Cherokees before we got Sierra's. The heaters broke, the HVAC controls boke, the front diffs broke, the springs wore out, the seats wore out, the door panels wore out, they used a lot of gas and they are extremely hard to get in and out of if you're using the back seat for anything. They get real loose when it's wet and the tires get eaten about every 30K. In their defense,, that I-6 always started and when the when you needed the 4H,, the things could have climbed a tree.

The model you're speaking of doesn't sell here,, must be a euroweenie car. Try and do a US crossref and I'll see if I can look up the softtop costs,, and also a hardtop so you don't actualy freeze to death on the way to work. ;)) Most likely it's the Wrangler. Can you say COLD floorboard? I knew you could......

FatBoy...

George: I re-read my last post and realize that the language is too imprecise to have much real meaning.

Of course a first rate guy with first rate gear has the best chance.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:14:47 (ZULU)

"All the money in the world won't make a pig into a race car,,,,, but it'll make a damn fast pig." author? Some guy who spent to much souping up a Chevette I bet ;))

Had a guy back in the 80's put a hemi in a Gremlin. Boy did that thing get squirly.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:49:40 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a favorite all time Xmas Carol.

White Trash Xmas

http://www.toonedin.com/movies/WhiteTrashXmas.html

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:51:12 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a favorite all time Xmas Carol.

White Trash Xmas

http://www.toonedin.com/movies/WhiteTrashXmas.html

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:51:12 (ZULU)

Fellers,

I drive a Durango for a reason. It's what gets the job done for me.

I need ya'lls help for a second. Please write you congressman about the ninth circuit court of appeals ruling in the peoples republic of Kalifornia. Their trying to say the 2nd amendment ain't for us just the states to have a militia.I wrote mine.

Play nice.

festus

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, AK, finally snowing - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:13:39 (ZULU)

Chris..

I got out to shoot again last night. Two nice days in a row, very rare out here. I wanted to get my data to 1000yds but it got dark on me and I only made it to 800.

I was discouraged to say the least. After the 200yds groups I thought I really had the load for this rifle. I started at 300yds and put 5 into a sloppy group around 2.5" I then went to 3 shot groups on out to 800yds.

400,500,600yds weren't bad but nothing to brag about. But at 700 and 800 it really opened up just making MOA at 700yds and over MOA at 800yds. The thing that really concerns me is the vertical stringing. I was shooting at paper plates at 600 to 800yds and at 800 I put one in the bottom of the plate one in the top and one a couple of inches above the plate.

All my 260 loads have always had very littly vertical stringing. I don't know if this is just the load or if I need to be looking at something else. I only have 15 142s left and I loaded them last night to hopefully get back out today to see what they do. The only problem is the wind is suppose to blow 10 to 15 today but I still should be able to tell if I get vertical stringing or not. I did have some mirage to contend with at 700 and 800 so maybe this was part of it too but I just have this feeling its not. Got any great ideas??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:26:00 (ZULU)

....for you guys that are watching the big "Eastern" storm.....I be the dude right in the middle of the huge ICE storm !!!! Waiting for the power to go out at anytime.....

May be a good day to unload "Alice(s)" and sort through my kit(s) !!!! Clean all the scope lenses, douse the triggers....important stuff !!!

George Gardner....you do it right and have my full permission to use all your wisdom while assembling my SC stick !!!!!

JRMoore

(hope the wife remembered to fuel up the generator and put an extra log on the woodstove......BEFORE she left for work !!!!)

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:38:02 (ZULU)

Hang on, what happend to working hours regs? I did a 12 hr night shift, got to go home for 3 hours, back in for a meeting, and now im wondering if it is worth driving home to get 2 hours before i have to start the next 12 hour shift?? can i still think straight? I know this shit happens in airtraffic control, thats why i hate flying. ahhhh, and the range is open this afternoon...

Chris, Mistubishi Pajero, ( its called a Shogun in the UK, or it used to be) its like a 4WD Zero, without bombs or guns('till i get it rigged) apparently a tough little SUV. This one is a soft top, its cheap ( about 50% less than the going price cos i know the guy and he wants to sell), but i know some anti hunting green ass hole will slit the top in no time. bolt on hard top is $1500 here, I'm thinking , buy it, remove winch, part ex it for a hard top version and make money on it. Or put a hard top on it and stay with a car that i know the history of?

Marty the ring size depends on if S&B come up with a 4-16x42 PMII, maybe a 34mm, or i might just say sod them and buy a Zeiss with a 30mm tube, no rush, let you know for definate soon.

sod it, i need me bed, .. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:47:57 (ZULU)

Hi guys,

Ken M.- Your'e right about all the NASCAR stuff. I used to work for Hendrick Motorsports, and building restrictor plate engines is hell. THey burn up all kinds of stuff. Cars would definitely be pushing 240mph on the bigger tracks if they could run without the plates.

Lito.- Marty doesn't do the SIMRAD adaptors for the old M40-A1 setup, just so you know. Says it's a lot of weight for two screws to hold, and he's right.

Mike Miller- How did the Marines put the SIMRAD on the M40-A1 anyway? Any ideas where I might be able to get the setup? Not that I need it, just thought it would be cool to have.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 15:02:35 (ZULU)

Pat,

Verticle stringing? If it was most other guys I'd ask if the parallax was good for up down and as well as side to side. I've seen some scopes recently that will remove one or the other but not both at the same time. BUT,, I'll not as you that mang,,,,,

You're primers may be squirelly. Have you ran this load through the chrono lately?

Oh,, and what's this about 2 non windy days in SoDak? Maybe you hit the sause a bit hard and that the problem ;))) You mustta ment the jeep wasn't rockin' yet huh ;))

Still sub moa at 800 is good IMHO,, but I'm not that good a shot,, so that just be MHO...

Pete,

They don't sell those here. You guys get some cool sheet that we never see. I'd like to get the euro ABT kit and ECU/boost controller for my Passat ;)

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 15:30:18 (ZULU)

Pete,

On the sst's, I shot a 230lbs pig with my 270, using 130gr sst at about 250 yards. Bullet went through both shoulders (almost blowing both front legs off and made mush out of the lungs, exit hole was only 2x the entrance wound size. If the pig would have been kind enough to stand on flat ground she would have dropped in her tracks, instead she flipped over backwards and rolled down to the bottem of the canyon, dead as a doornail when I got down to her. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on anything up to mule deer, big pig size.

Somebody mentioned Corvalis, I used to live there. There is a redhead at the Vet school that is pretty good in the sack, but will stab you in the back as soon as she gets the chance...

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:32:15 (ZULU)

BANDWIDTH ALERT…… BANDWIDTH ALERT…… BANDWIDTH ALERT……

First: Yes...yes...yes... its always the shooter, but Tubb won't show up to a match with a stock Remmy he bought at the big K and try to compete.

Second: If it’s the shooter then why do you guys get so honked on every new caliber that some nut invents???? Could it be because Tubb won with the 6.5 X 284? I bet it wasn’t on a stock action.

I was trying to avoid this but…

Let me break it down:

Pre 64 Winchesters…..Suck! always did, always will hard to clean up but not impossible.

Post 64 Winchesters…..Suck even more!

Savages, an engineering triumph, proved that a gun can be built with very little machining,assembles like a puzzle, aesthetically suck, functionally they are OK, except for the thing they call a trigger.

Mauser, the top of the suck pile! Now before you all get ready to flame me let me step into my Nomex underpants and continue. The Mauser is where it all started, so was the Model T. the Mauser was made from anything that looked, smelled or tasted like steel,

Quality control was at best poor, then you over engineer everything so that when it blows up (shitty ammo) the operator won’t be hurt…badly.

Mausers feel smooth because the case hardening is as hard as glass, good idea? That’s a matter of opinion. Why are Mausers so popular? Its really simple. After WWII many GI’s used their GI bill to go to gunsmithing or machinists school. (Machinists tend to have one of 2 hobbies, guns or steam engines.) Up until very very recently when you went to gunsmithing school you were given a Mauser and told that you hold in you hand the Holy grail of actions. The fact is after WWII you could buy a brand new, only dropped once M98 for as little as $3.00! Don’t believe me? look in a 1950’s American Rifleman magazine. In the 60’s they went up to $20. They were the perfect action to chop, port, polish, overbore, stretch, shorten, whatever! It was the perfect student action, everything needed to be fixed or modified. If you totally scrap it out your out $3-$20 bucks.

Lets see…what else???

Howa, Good copy of a Remmy, bad trigger, ugly bolt shroud.

Nesika, great copy of a Remmy, tight tolerances, too tight for a working gun.

Beretta Mato, copy of a Remmy, Magazine sucks, has a Mauser extractor and a Whinny Safety, discontinued.

Stolle, another great copy of a Remmy, not a gun for the real world, just target shooting.

Sako’s, good guns, kind of an upgraded Remmy, for some reason not used by shooters like us or target shooters just hunters (TRG 21/22-41 not withstanding)

Remington M700 The perfect action…for manufacture! Designed with fast, inexpensive production in mind. Over the years quality has been up and down. Interestingly, if you look at the above list, most of the actions are Remington copies…Hmmmmm what’s that about?

Truing/ accurising /blueprinting, what ever you want to call it will make it a better tool.

Accuracy is nothing more that consistency, and accurising adds that consistency to the rifle.

The above is my opinion, my professional opinion I am an engineer by trade, I have been in the firearms industry professionally for over 20 years, I have designed rifles and actions that are for sale today. I have even designed cartridges that are in production today, I have studied every