Sniper Country Duty Roster

December 2002

gone stuff

Brogers <>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:21:27 (ZULU)


This knife with a BMF style handle & endcap would be the cats meow. I love the BMF w/o sawteeth.

Away back when (1985?) I begged and pleaded for a Gerber rep to make a solid back version.

Them Rinaldis are NICE, but like CDC & youse said Grip is CRITICAL.


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:28:30 (ZULU)

Bill- At the risk of drawing fire, how much do you shoot your tupperware vs nayhting else?  I will bow to experience anytime, most of youse have more experience than me.  But that's the point here, right experience and repetition?

That's why i don't shoot anything but my Sigs, it's what I carry and I need to have it in my muscle memory not a 1911, the greatest handgun ever invented by mankind:)  But the point is, if you shot your 1911's or H&K's like your Glock wouldn't they be just as fast?  Is it so much a design thing or an operator thing?

But like Kevin Mussack said, pick one, shoot it (a lot) and make damn sure you have the mindset.

Steve Burris

Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:32:43 (ZULU)


Have an original gurka kukri in WWII canvas sheath similar to this one:

AWESOME weapons if used properly. Of course, you can take your own leg off if not careful!

This is on my list when I become wealthly like YoteBait!

Sorry folks, forgot this was a guns and stuff place, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 01:29:17 (ZULU)

I'm surprised at you guys... you'd think this would be common knowledge here....

#1 rule of knife fighting... bring a good medic, it is not uncommon for the victor to die from his wounds..

ASC #2 is gonna require pistolero skills... damn, suddenly my handicap just got real big... I can't hit the side of a barn... I'm slow too.  No formal training probably has a lot to do with it... One of many downsides to living in NJ.

medicjim <>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:04:43 (ZULU)

Hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving ! Time to do some push-ups now.

I was shooting my M1A Standard SA today, I'm thinking about selling this weapon for a G.A. Precision - Maybe for the "Rock" !!!

If I spend the money to get this M1A to shoot better groups, I could purchase a REAL GUN from G.A. Precision :>) !!!!!!!!!!!

I know this has been asked before or maybe not? Could anyone explain in detail - what is a 5R barrel?  --- Pros and Cons?

Thanks for your time,


BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:04:51 (ZULU)

I am considering ordering a second barrel for my Rock River Arms AR-15.  Can anyone share with me their experience with chrome lined bores?  Has anyone noticed a decrease in expected accuracy or, greater barrel life with a chrome lined bore?  Does anyone feel a chrome lined bore is worth the extra cost over the standard chrome moly barrel?  Any input you would be able to offer would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

Mike Diorio <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:41:54 (ZULU)


    The saga of Doc Holliday and Johnny Ringo?  Sorry BRogers, couldn't resist.....I'm enjoying the discussion.  For autos I've got some 1911s and a Sig 228, but some day I'd like to try a Glock 21, just to see what they're all about. I'd be interested in what holsters you have found that hold up to the usage you describe.

    Had a Cold Steel Trailmaster with Carbon V blade, and they have a certain charm, plus they're sharp enough to shave hair off your arm.  Sold it.  Too big to haul around.  If I want to chop I'll use an axe.  For venison work a Master Hunter with Carbon V is the ticket.  Short and sharp and holds up well to field dressing chores.  I've been eyeing the Benchmade Nimravus as a nice fixed blade carry knife, also.

    Bolt, don't bother kicking him in the hand....easy to miss.  When he sticks his hand in pocket, just nail him low center between the front jean pockets.  This presumes he was sorta in the attack mode, and not just reaching for his car keys.  Ha!

Jerry S. <>
Red River Country, MN, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 03:52:13 (ZULU)

The trailmasters with the straight black handles are awkward to haul around.  Custom makers curve their knives in such a way as to make them much easier to carry.  With the classic (I forget the name) sheaths, they aren't bad at all.  

CDC' <>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 04:05:08 (ZULU)

BRogers, I think if I saw one of my guys do your drill and put the weapon back in the holster that fast6 I would kick his ass around the block. Nice game if you want to practice how to die.You practice as you fight. You do your drill a bunch of times and then it gets real. You fire one round into body armor, holster and watch as he shoots you. Time to step out and learn how to fight with a pistol. Might as well place your empties in a coffee can between drills, Same end result Bad Training! As to who is fastest. Hell I only shoot as fast as I can make the hit, but when you center punch my armor and reholster you will say crap when I stop firing/hitting.LMAO

I would love to see what happens when you holster a glock that fast and hit the trigger on the strap. Let me guess no strap to keep a big mean guy from atking it from you, or it dropping when you fast rope/rappel, move around.  Its gunfight at the OK?

MikeMIller <>
CA, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 04:27:40 (ZULU)

Bill & CDC, I hate to disagree with you on the value of "hip" shooting. I was taught at our Academy by Bill McClenan, who now teaches full time at Thunder Ranch and did part time there when I was an LE pup, that it does have its place. It is not true hip shooting you fire with the gun at the side of your chest, about nipple hieght. It is used when fighting gets very personnel. "Bad Breath" distance is a good analogy I guess. When raising the pistol to a normal stance would result in having the gun with in reach of the Suspect. You maybe fighting him off, or holding his gun hand while drawing your own. In this case a normal stance is out of the question and this technique BETTER BE PRACTICED! A person should try as many shooting techniques as posssible in order to improve your life saving skills. I practice with a handgun from powder burn distance to 100 yds or more with my guns. Not that distance with the tupperware though. I have even practiced out to 200yds with my 44 getting over 50% hits on a 200 yds service rifle rapair center (open sights). I like being an all around shooter not just fast or combat distance but a genuine good shot. Like I have said, I aint great with a hand gun but I am practiced. So I say practice practice practice. I know one guy who shoots the pistol normally rotates it 90 degrees shoots rotates it another 90 and shoots, til it has been rotated 360 degrees. Upside down he uses his pinky.

Knives, oh so pistol country must step aside for knife country. haha

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 05:28:23 (ZULU)


Hmmm, just when I think we MAY have reached maturity we start with the "pistol wars" thing, again.

YOUR CHOICE! If'n it fits you, is reliable, and is in a suitable defensive caliber you're set.

Being an old fart, I've carried the 1911 platform for over 25 years. Nothing fits my hand better. Next in line is the Browning Hi-Power 9mm or .40 S & W and the Glocks. Glocks got no soul, but they work.

HK's work, but I AM NOT a fan.

Let's not forget our K and L frame S & W's, either.

Personally, I like rifles better. Prefering to conduct "business" at a distance.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 10:38:30 (ZULU)

On mindset..

A friend came by one evening to borrow a small caliber pistol. Supposedly to teach his girlfriend to defend herself and newborn from bad-assed exhubby. Small caliber first and move up to a .40 Sig which he was to loan her when she felt ready. We talked and had a beer while discussing the finer points of self defense. I asked him if he was Positive she would Shoot her attacker? He threw down his beer and said "everbody ain't a Rambo like you, man!" At which point he left. Never spoke to him again. I think Clint was right.

"Anyone can understand shooting to protect themselves. You give me five minutes and I’ll make anyone on this planet mad enough to shoot me. The real question is, will they have that much time in a fight? You need to make that decision before you start to fight-only your life depends on it." Clint Smith


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 13:50:53 (ZULU)

Alan, there is some one teaching that Israeli technique here in the Fatherland, but they will only teach it to women,I was encouraging my misses to go for it. I always tell every body I've got a blackbelt in martial arts... "gun-fu" Ref the knife fighting carry on, people that use knives are plain nasty, I once had occasion to be in the close vicinity of a knife wielding asshole, it wasn't pretty.

Ken M. Let me explain the way it works with the Armourers in the Brit Army, maybe some of you guys will find it interesting.Armourer trade training takes place at the School Of Electronic and Mechanical Engineering. The Basic Armourer course is about 1 year long, Students start by learning basic engineering skills like fitting and machining, also incorporated is some blacksmithing/sheet metal work and working with plastics-figerglass etc and every tradesman in the Army learns Battle Dammage repair techniques. Then they move on to the history of firearms and firearms developement, learn all the technical responsibilities of the armourer and all about the army paper shuffleing system/spare parts requesition, workshop practices and procedures etc, Then general principles of firearms and types of actions, ammunition and ballistics, learn all about terms and abbreviations associated with firearms. Then move on to learn fault finding and repair general issue weapons/ firearms and support weapons and all associated equipments, to manufacturers standards.Basicaly learning to build weapons from a pile of parts, machining and fitting and manufacturing parts where nessecary, everything from bayonets, through pistols assault rifles, mortars, machineguns, riot control weapons, aircraft/vehicle mounted weapons and mountings etc. Then comes a section on things like AFV turrets, an Armourer is responsible for all the insides of the turrets on vehicles like the warrior, (we had the fox recce vehicle then) things like the electrical firing circuits, the vehicle sights and all the turret fittings from seats to smoke dischargers are the responsibility of the Regimental Armourer, as are/were all the field cooking appliances and a whole bunch of other kit including the officers mess bicycles). Then they move on to a part of the course that deals with optics/instruments and night vision eqpt. Then a section on foriegn and non issue weapons ( we worked on the Garand the M1 carbine, several H&K's, AK47 and a bunch of derivatives, M16a2, Negev,variouse foriegn machineguns and a bunch of other stuff) We then went and did a course in the Armaments wing on artillery pieces and tank mounted guns (this was for the benefit of those of us who where bieng sent to armoured regiments, to enable us to help the gun fitters) we then also covered sniper rifles (although i seem to remember that sniper rifles wheren't generally covered on the basic course buy on an extra equipment course, i think that if your particular basic had the time you did it and if time was short you had to come back later).Sevral parts of the course where manufacturer recognised or had manufacturer participation. Anyway, at the end of the course (and also at appropriate points through out the course) we where given exams, written and practical, those who passed went on to do a refresher of the basic military training and where posted to field units as a Class 3 Armourer. Depending on your grades and final test results you where either given your class 2 after 6 months or had to take a further set of tests at the local REME  Field Workshop in your Military district. From arriving at your first unit as a still wet behind the ears class 3, you began to perform your duties under the supervision of the class 1's. basicaly you continued your training "on the job" returning to SEME and or other training establishments for variouse courses as the need or requirement arose( things like Milan, Browning 50cal, Turning Techniques(indepth lathe/machining course). As a class 2 you where considered capable to work with the minimum of supervision, periodicaly bieng given tasks on which you would be evaluated. anywhere between 3 and 6 years after completing the basic course you where called to attend a class 1 course (the more capable you where, the sooner you got on it). This was a refresher of the basic course, with some updates and a more indepth look at some weapons, (sniper rifles where one catagory where we went realy into depth due to the adoption of the L96A1 at the time). If you pass this course you are then considered capable of running an Armourers workshop and supervising and training tradesmen under your command. From this point on you can opt for 1 of 2 career paths, either you stay in the one trade disciplin and eventualy become an Artisan ( highest rank you can achieve is that of Staff Sergeant) or you opt to cross train as a Gun Fitter and eventualy become an Artificer.( you can reach the rank of ASM Aftificer Sergeant Major and ultimately take a commision as an Officer).

Any way, as a class 2 Armourer you are considered trained and capable enough to look after your own Infantry companies weapons and associated equipment. What tended to happen was that each inf coy would have an Armourer assigned and the rest or a Bn's weapons and equipment would be divided up between all the B'n armourer's when in camp or looked after by the HQ Coy Armourer (usualy the SSgt) when in the field. ( I always had Mortars,Sniper-Rifles,Milan and the Carl Gustav's and the AFV's (Rarden Cannon and its turret in the Fox) to repair when in base, so realy I had 2 Inf companies, Alpha and Heavey Weapons or Support Coy, I liked it that way because i got to get out and about with each section when they went on section exercises, be it Mortars, Pipes and Drums ( SF machine guns) Recce Pl, Sniper cadres, Anti Tank/Milan whatever, If I made sure i wasn't in camp much i didn't get stuck on guard much, then i got on the Bn shooting team and i was never in camp, it was great..

OK hope i haven't bored any one with my little trip down memory lane. It would interest me how the US forces organise thier repair troops, especialy weapons repair, I believe the Canadians do it along scimilar lines to us Brits, with the CREME as do the Aussies.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 15:53:21 (ZULU)

Thank you undude--nobody ever won a gun by being the first person back in ther holster.  A very hard habit to break if a newby has "taught" himself this habit prior to formal combat oriented training.

on the shooting the pistol upside down manipulating the trigger with your pinky.  this is not difficult.  We demonstrate this to all newbys on the last day of ther firearms block  from 25 yards.  

curious about some of your pistol qualification courses for new people.  We can talk inservice later.

Oklahoma Basic Pistol qual (every new officer must shoot a 70% to receive basic certification 1 time out of 6 chances)

3 rounds from the 3 foot line in three seconds one handed (I hate this term but basicly "hip shooting" with off gun hand touching center of chest in a defensive posture)  Bad breath distance!

3 rounds 3 yard line two in chest 1 in head  3 seconds

2 rounds 5 yard line center chest 3 seconds

2 rounds 7 yard line center chest 3 seconds

2 rounds 15 yards low kneeling  4 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards low kneeling using baricade for cover only 5 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards standing week hand baricade supported 5 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards standing strong hand supported 5 seconds

2 rounds 50 yards high kneeling 8 seconds

Each stage is fired from the holsterd position interview stance.

20 round course shot on a silouett target (basicly a NRA-B27  7 ring and in)  All hits in ring 5 points, softball size circle in head, must be in circle to get head shot points.

Fail to follow range tower commands shooting improper # of shots or improper position is an NQ( no qualification)  regardless of score.

Instructors shoot this course in half time for the students.  Hard part of this is the 15 yard line, two rounds low kneeling in 2 seconds starting from a standing interview stance- holsterd.

I am interested in what some of you guys are doing     always looking to steal somthing good from whoever I can.

c ya

Jim Anderson <>
OKC , OK, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 16:58:21 (ZULU)

Anyone remeber what the course of fire was for the 150 foot NRA Marksman Qualification Course ?

Dean Miller <>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 19:55:01 (ZULU)

Guys, just came back from shooting with wife and son. Son did well. Wife well, she shot the rifle George built and at 200 placed two touching and one with just a little paper between it and he other two holes. Looks like soon George may be Building another stick for the house.

<<< Just measured wifes group .70" at 200 yds..>>>>>

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 22:33:42 (ZULU)

Brogers--I never liked Glocks for nuthin.'  Then I shot actually shot one...Heheh.  The damned thing felt good, hit good, and pretty much ruined my irrational hatred.  Doesn't mean I am selling the Para or not buying more 1911s, just that I bought into the tupperware criticisms.  I can't fault the departments using them now.

Mil-LE cross training:  I remember that change a few years back.  I thought it was a bone-headed self-imposed expansion of Posse C.  We had Feds and smatterings of New England LE out with us--and the learning was two-way.  Damned fine resource just thrown away.  I kinda learned about the Kenya-style techniques for bomb making from the LEOs.  Nuthin' new about gas-enhanced bombs.  Just ask 2d Force Recon Marines...but the TECH guys were well versed; the classified courses weren't even on that yet.  Folks living near the Coleman Demo area found out what I learned from those guys.  Whatta effin' boom.  The cross talk knowledge is priceless.  That rule needs to be lifted soon.

Blake's hunt:  What terrible conditions.  Winds gusting to 35 kts, steady at 20, occassionally hit Gale force (indeed--50 kts) all weekend.  The deer are wherever the wind ain't--and that be somehwere I ain't too. Looks like my show-off shot will be the only meat this year.  Blake is out now with his Uncle as the winds fell off to a reasonable 5-10 (I'm babysittin', like Medicjim someday).  Just heard one shot off the back quarter.  Maybe?????  If it was Blake, his barrel just fouled again!  Damn remmy.  The good part of this year was just being out with my son.  Watching him double check his safety at every move, copying my walk through the leaves and brush, whispering TRP data at every over watch position for hold-overs.  Having him commit these to memory, tracking and picking up the high signs as well as the obvious--it was great.  He has never been so serious--just wish he'd take that to school!  6 hours left in the season.  Even though his tag is yet-unfilled; this has been a hunt to remember.

Ken M,  The McCoy range is doable--but you just signed me on for some serious JAG liason!  The LEOs and MIL guys are too easy, contractors of any sort with the Gov are easy too--but pulling civies into a match is real tricky since 9/11!  Didn't say "no"--but it is a full time job for a week or two to grease it.  I'm tight with the headshed--so better use me while I'm still CONUS!  Email me some details of what you propose.  I'll do a feasibility study (hahaha).  My feasibility study consists of actually doing it.  If it works, it was feasible.  Screw staff work.

Nicole is bedding down her dollies all over the living room, and Raegan is watching Foxnews.  Blake is in the woods bearing arms.  The Mom's beat is quiet--Much to give thanks for this weekend.

Joe M.

BTW--if anyone scores some more of those BJ sandwiches, how 'bout bringing us all back one?  

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:14:22 (ZULU)

>>>I was shooting my M1A Standard SA today, I'm thinking about selling this weapon for a G.A. Precision - Maybe for the "Rock" !!!

If I spend the money to get this M1A to shoot better groups, I could purchase a REAL GUN from G.A. Precision :>) !!!!!!!!!!!<<<

BearMan -

You ain't listening, dude.  Your M1A Standard is doing the job it was intended for.  It AIN'T a tack driver and was never meant to be one.  But it does drop two-legged varmints at distance with a vengence.  You're comparing APPLES with ORANGES!

New Load For The M16? -

Has anybody heard of a 6.7mm round being developed by Remington for the M16 weapons system?  It supposedly uses the existing 5.56x45 case necked out for the larger bullet.  Only weapon changes are new barrel, buffer and buffer spring.  All else stays the same.

Master Boucher, Sinister, Undude?


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:16:29 (ZULU)

When finished firing, go to the guard position.  Search left and right using the guard position.  If appropriate, do a tactical reload.  Holster weapon.  Manage magazines.  Continue to march.

Do a speed reholster on my firing line, and you're finished shooting.

CDC' <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:21:28 (ZULU)


England has worst crime rate in world

By David Bamber, Home Affairs Correspondent

(Filed: 01/12/2002)

England and Wales have the highest crime rate among the world's leading economies, according to a new report by the United Nations.

The survey, which is likely to prove embarrassing to David Blunkett, the Home Secretary. shows that people are more likely to be mugged, burgled, robbed or assaulted here than in America, Germany, Russia, South Africa or any other of the world's 20 largest nations. Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales.

According to the comparison of international crime statistics produced by the UN's Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, England and Wales had 9,766 crimes for every 100,000 people in the year 2000. America had 8,517, South Africa 7,997, Germany 7,621 and Russia 2,022.

During the period 1998-2000, Britain went from fifth to fourth worst in the world league table. An analysis of total recorded crime figures before 1998 also suggests that England and Wales have moved sharply up the league table since Labour came to power in 1997. Crimes fell from 5.5 million in 1993 to 4.5 million in 1997. By 1999, total crimes had risen again to 5.3 million.

Last night Oliver Letwin, the shadow home secretary, said: "This does rather blow a hole in David Blunkett's claim that New Labour has crime under control. It is a damning picture."

The UN reports also shows that England and Wales are the second-worst places in the world for assaults, with 851 people assaulted per 100,000, and seventh for burglaries and car theft, with 1,579 burglaries per 100,000 population.

Criminologists believe that a note of caution needs to be introduced into analysis of the data, because of the different ways in which UN member countries record crimes.

A Home Office spokesman said that officials had not yet seen the report and so could not comment.


Surely this can't be true. The UK draconian gun laws should've made everyone safe...(and maybe it did)...for murderers, rapists, burglars, muggars and robbers.


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:25:27 (ZULU)

Just got back from the sandhills.  I agree with Brian, I felt kinda CS posting and leaving.  I couldn't get the posts from earlier in the week so I don't know what happened.  Hope I am still welcome here.

Sarge...2 things.  How do you get those big mulies out of the sand.  And has anyone ever actually measured how fast a Blue quail can run?

Brian, can probably help you on the knife thing some.  Get with me off-line.  Oh, and I've seen your Jock, that is if you are referring to the pink lacy things you dance around in.

The pistol issue became clear to me the first time I had to write a use of force report.  Used to be sooo cool "as I deployed my cocked-and-locked .45 caliber COLT 1911 " then it became "I drew my glooock" (sounds like rectching).  Just kidding guys.  I agree...probably the most important thing is being in the mindset of actually using the thing.

Rich Johnson <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:32:26 (ZULU)

Steve; in answer to your question, yes, it is a design thing.  

Brogers <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:06:57 (ZULU)

Pistol post deleted.

Brogers <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:52:21 (ZULU)

pistol deleted.

Brogers <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:06:43 (ZULU)

Moe -Easy - I know the M1A I have is a battle rifle.  The point I was saying was if I trick the M1A out I will end up with a lot of money   in this gun.  If I still had my AR-10T I would hang with some bolt guns, ( some would say "no" - but? I would be close -Perhaps? :) )  I guess I made a mistake buying a gun that I thought I could get to shoot under 1 M.O.A. for a reasonable price.  My first mistake!!! in life.......:)

He@# Moe I was really trying to get the page off of 1911 Pistols - So give me some credit for trying to change the subject, with what I guess was a stupid question.



BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:58:48 (ZULU)


Shot my new 6 X 284 today in a Varmit Match today...

I have never shot a gun this accurate....I shot a 1.5" group at 625 yards in the warm up....On a sighter shot at 541yards. I called my sighter at a Bolt holding the Sighter Target and Nailed It.

Hit 38 of 40 targets. The wind was a real b%$@*ch. On one shot I was .5 minute right(hit), next shot 1.5 minutes left. Just missed the right edge @ 3 o'clock. Missed the other shot..9 Hits in a row at 300 yards. Out of no were I miss 2 inches to the right. The conditions were the same...I have no Idea what happened.

Anyway there I tied for second in my class...I am pretty happy for my first match...

If anyone is considering a Varmit rig, I highly recommend the 6X284...It is one flat shooting cartridge.

If anyone here is reloading this cartridge, please drop me a line, I would love to compare notes.

Cant wait to get my 300WMag back from Mike Rock...


bryan <>
CA, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:17:07 (ZULU)

Joe M, I tried three times to get an E-mail to you and it keeps bouncing.  The one I sent to Moe looks like it out went OK, so it might be on your end.  If your side is OK, I'll try something else from the this end.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:21:37 (ZULU)

I may be getting a nice chunk of change soon...considering the following:

HK USP Compact - .357 Sig. Either that or a HK Mark 23 tactical with a suppressor. I don't need one, but it'd be cool.

Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4 Carbine w/Aimpoint

Some very nice Leupold optics, a HS precision or Macmillan stock, a Jewelled (sp?) trigger, and a Harris bipod for my 700. Should I stick with my stock barrel? It's not a bull barrel.

I'm also considering a SPAS-12 or Benelli M1 tactical shotgun.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

Andrew T <>
Tucson, AZ, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:56:44 (ZULU)

Before "Handgun Country" is laid to rest, I have another question. Has anyone here had any experience with the Springfield XD40? Good...bad? Looks like an improvement over the Glock.

Contact me offline if you wish.


On the 6.5 X .284... Shame it won't work on a REM 700 SA...or as least AS well as a LA. Is there anyway to extend the barrel life on that caliber or is that just a given? Got a 700 SA on a McMillan stock that would be a prime candidate for the next barrel changeover. Well...maybe the 260 Rem might be more betterer anyway. Which BTW, what is the barrel life on a .260?


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:00:16 (ZULU)

The following numbers were given to me by a man who I trust to tell me the truth as he understands it, but I don't trust numbers that I haven't personally verified.  As of 1990, students at one of the top pistol schools had been in 220 pistol conflicts that the staff knew of.  Those students won 218 and lost 2.  One who lost was "Bonnie and Clyded" while at the same stop sign where he stopped every day.  The BGs hid behind a hedge, then hosed down his car with squirt guns.  He didn't pay attention during the Wednesday afternoon lecture.  The other got into it somewhere in Western Africa with six guys.  He got five, the sixth got him.  This man had only taken the basic class.

This doctrine was worked out by very smart people.  It is proven.  It works.

It would well pay someone who worked in dangerous situations to go to one or more of the top schools, take all the training they give, then go practice a lot.  


CDC' <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:01:36 (ZULU)

pistol post deleted

Brogers <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:25:57 (ZULU)

Rem. 700 LA Questions, if someone will be so kind as to give me some advice.

Well, went to purchase the Springfield 03 (for the action) but the pawn shop had a Rem. 700 LA .30-06 for $150 plus tax.  The metal looked a lot better than the Rem. VS I am selling.  Bought it.  

It is a 1962 ADL, with a apx 20 inch barrel.  Looks like first year of production.  Has a cutout as if for stripper clips.  I bought it for the action, but it did clean up OK, and may be just fine as it.  It looks like a precurser to the Model 7.  Short barrel.  Nice adjustable trigger - a little different than the Rem VS.  

But the plan was to build a heavy rifle, #7 (?) barrel.  Questions: First, will the LA work with .308?  Any essential mods?  Any reason it will not feed and extract with a .308 barrel?   Second, will the ADL work with BDL hardware and stock?  Third, anything different about an early (1962) 700 long action that I should know about?

I have access to some tools, and can install a Shillen short-chambered barrel, and finish-ream it.  (It's a hobby - I want to do the work myself.)  But I do not want to invest in a .308 barrel if it is not going to feed well.  

Anyway, it is nicer looking metal than the VS, and the price was right.  Even if I do nothing to it other than scrub the barrel, it was a good deal.

Thanks for any information.  


P. M. Hayden <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:31:29 (ZULU)

My responnce to 'yote Bate's three deleted pistol posts...

... deleted!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 06:49:41 (ZULU)

Alan: re. Norma's 6,5x55 DiamondLine FieldTarget.

The hispeed round is called 6.5x55 Norma DiamondLine Falt. It is listed on Norma's website, This round is spesially developed to give maximum ballistic performance combined with acceptable barrellife. This factory load give app. 4000 round barrellife in a hammerforged matchbarrel from Sauer or Heym. (Heym is actually a little better). The round is listed at 900ms in a 27" european barrel. That is app. 2950fps. In a tighter 24" US barrel (and Heym's new matchbarrels) it easily exceedes 3000fps. Pressure is 3200bar. After 4000 rounds in the european barrels the mv don't drop more than 30-50fps. This is very important for fieldtarget shooters (and snipers ?) as they memorize their sightsettings in clicks on the peepsights. Trajectories and windriftsettings remain identical through the entire barrellife. This factory load is easily duplicated with Norma's 130gr VLD molycoated bullet and Norma N204 powder. N204 used to be almost identical to RL19 produced by Bofors in Sweden. I don't know were RL19 is produced today.

Comparing this 6.5x55 load to a 6.5-284 is interesting. I've seen winning 1000yds handloads for the latter giving app. 3000fps with 140/142gr Sierra MatchKings. The BC. on the Norma 130gr is almost identical to the Sierra but the SD. is ofcource inferior. Still a click or 2 more windage can save a shooter a lot of money. Think 10000 rounds per season...

I think US shooters has something to learn from their European counterparts when it comes to competitive longrange shooting. In the last 10 years the latest modular rifles from Sauer and Blaser ( Sauer outsells Blaser by 100 to 1 ) and new ammo from Norma, Lapua and Raufoss has revolousionized the sport. The scores overall have been improved by a quantum leap from the days of custombuilt targetrifles. Now an unexperienced shooter can buy a new rifle, some boxes of ammo and have competitive equipment from day one. When his barrel is shot out he replaces it himself with a new one in 15min.

Btw. even JR at Border in Scotland can ship new dropin barrels for the Sauer. They list 6.5x55 and 6mmBR Norma.


TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:44:24 (ZULU)

Ref: Grip Safeties

I built my house in the mid-80's when I was out of my mind over IPSC shooting.  So I built an indoor 50' range as part of the basement.  Sinsister has been there, can I get an "Amen"?

Anyhow, I was shooting 200 rounds a night back then trying to win stupid wooden plaques on the weekend.  I picked up one of those 7" AMT longslides for a song and was in the range doing one-shot draws with it.  I was already pretty well conditioned and my draws were "ironed in" for a five inch gun.  The buzzer went off and I snatched the piece, drew it five inches out of the Bianci Chapman holster and started the presentation.  The hitch was that two inches of slide was still in the holster.  The pistol wrenched out of my hand wiping off the safety at the same time.  I watched the big silver .45 pinwheel in slow motion down the range sweeping me with it's muzzle on every rotation. It clattered onto the concrete about ten feet in front of me and came to rest pointing up range.

I'm glad Mr.Browning put that grip safety into his design.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:58:20 (ZULU)


The old 700 LA will work fine with 308 but you must be careful when you load the rifle sliding each round fully to the rear as you place them in the magazine. The Army specified a LA for the M24 with the idea that later the guns would be rebarreled to a longer cartridge (300 WM?). One advantage of the LA is that you never have a problem with reloads being too long for the magazine.

There have been a few changes over the years but the action is essentially the same as new production. Biggest concern for you would be replacement extractors. The old model was held in place by a small rivet while the new ones are a semicircular spring design. I believe either are plenty strong and if there was a problem the USMC or Army would have required a change by now. With the age of your action it might not be a bad idea to change the extractor with the barrel. You will need the old model and the rivet. By the way, I saw more than 10 old Remington 700 (M40) extractors, vintage 1968, go an estimated 40,000+ rounds before giving up. All of the actions were from the same production year and had lived through several barrels.


Marc Palmer <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 09:38:34 (ZULU)

The New Army?

I watched a piece on the History channel this AM. Army recruits 3 day TX prior to graduation. Program begins, 3 or 4 soldiers wander in 10 minutes late for initial brief. Interview soldier about the 6 mile march w/35 pound ruck, her concerns? Blisters on her feet. 1st day, 1 soldier lost-unaccounted for. Soldier said," he was dead so we left him". 1st night, perimeter security breached- latrine call took to long. It didn't get anymore reassuring. I truly respect our men and women in service but that production was an insult to anyone who serves or has served. I've seen a comparable piece on the Marine Corps gradution TX and it instilled a high level of confidence in the viewer. This was a travesty. Doesn't the Army preview these things?


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 10:03:28 (ZULU)

Brain Sain - Thanks for the compliment on my last post, I appreciate it sir.

Pete L - You are just a hunting madman...great hunt Pete !!

Knives - The thought of getting cut by a guy scares the hell out of me, more then getting shot, not that I'm looking to have either happen thank you very much.  I don't know why it just does and I can't possibly explain it.  Spooky stuff indeed.

Glocks - My department issues Glaock 40's and we have to carry them as our duty pistols.  I hated Glocks until I started using one now I like my G22 a lot.  As far a street cops go it is a very good choice...low maintenance and reliable.  Now, with all that said...

1911's RULE !!!!!!

Be safe,

Joe S.  

Joe S. <>
Dago, CA, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 11:30:36 (ZULU)

TorF sounds like he's on to something.  On Thursday I posted a question about a switch barrel system that would have some of the same benefits.  It seems to have been buried by 1911 V Glock Volume 147.

CDC' <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 12:58:32 (ZULU)

Chris & Wes..

 When I got home from work on Wed. I had my barreled action laying in the chair with a new 260 Kreiger barrel on it!!

 I of course headed out to the range with all my gear and proceeded to break it in. The first 10rds down the barrel were nice and smooth. It took two rounds to get it on the paper and then the next 3 went into a .4 cleaning between each shot. The next five went into a .3 cleaning inbetween each shot. Needless to say I was a happy camper!!

 I did some load testing with lighter loads (I was using the 38grs of Varget load that was for my 22" bbl. rifle) and it seemed to like the hotter load the best. This rifle also likes the 142s better than the 140 AMAXs. Wouldn't you just know it would be that way since I have a bunch of 140 AMAXs!! I shot it at 200yds and it put 5 into a .625 group. Then I started at 300 on out to 700yds but just shot 3 shot groups for 300 on out. It stayed at .5 MOA all the way to 700yds. The 3 shot at 700yds was 2.25" but that was one of those lucky groups we all like to brag about(HA).

 I am very pleased with the way the Kreiger is shooting to say the least!! I had it made with a 24" since the 22" shot out to a 1000yds with no problems.


 Hey old friend glad to see you back on and posting again!! My shooting buddy is going to build a 6.5x55 and I could use some good loading data if you would be kind enough to send me some off line. Thanks!!


 You tell'em and don't hold back on your feelings either!!!(HA)Glad your on our side!!


 We will just have to agree to disagree, You need to shoot some machine gun ammo once in a sniper rifle. I have, and it sucks!!! So I guess Iam just a "Poser" and he is one hell of a lot better shot than me to get any hits past 500yds. And by the way I "DO" shoot to 1000yds and have had over 90" of wind dialed into my 308 doing it. In fact I thought my bullets were starting to key hole because of the marks they were making on the paper. It was just the drop and angle they were coming in at that was making the marks.

 My son was home this weekend and he was shooting his 308 with 180gr Match Laupas and had 2 min. of wind on his rifle at 600yds shooting 180s compared to my 1 min of angle with the 142s at 600yds. Now go figure!! Maybe this doesn't work out on your computer but that was what it was in the real world on that day, on his rifle, with a 26" Hart barrel with a 1-12 twist. Both were dead on at 100yds by the way.

Pat <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 14:42:46 (ZULU)


I shot one of the new Sig switch barrels this weekend, even during all this Cock, I mean Glock fight and nose bleeds. The rifle was a hunting weight barrel synthetic stock with a trigger mechanism that exceeds 700 Remington quality. The rifle wasn't pillar bedded but floated and fitted nicely. It would have taken some reloading to come up with the 1 MOA that the box guaranteed. It has a great recoil pad and was quite nice to shoot. Identical bases front and rear was a nice touch.

25-06 was the caliber and we didn't switch barrels but all in all it was a nice hunting rifle. Black Matte all over. IT was one of the cheaper ones that are just being felt in America.

Kevin; that "thing" happened to a IPSC opponent trying me on pepper poppers with a brand spanking new Wilson and a normal size barrel,everyone was ducking. I blessed the safety that day myself.  I posted it a little while back. I'll suppress my true feelings on that problem but I've seen it manifest it'self many times with the 1911.

  My appology to the senstive ones for going into the Glock thing but it was already going for 2 days if you remember right you guys were about through kicking the poor chap around when I entered it.

I'm not sure why pistols is a taboo subject with you so called Snipers. Other than the fact it's been overdone a few times here and elsewhere, it's never been settled and probably never will.  

Brogers <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 15:02:44 (ZULU)

Check out these Photos of various Barrel interiors!!

To Brush or not to Brush,what a question??

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:08:38 (ZULU)


 I forgot to mention that I would be very intrested in the loading data you have on the 6.5x308s if you would be kind enough to share it. Thanks!!!

Pat <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:23:41 (ZULU)

Sauer rifles.

To avoid confusion. The following matchtype Sauer rifles have interchangable barrels: Sig-Sauer SSG3000, Sauer 202TR, Sauer 200STR, Sauer205 Target and SSG(sniper). These rifles all have a very heavy match-type action with a match-quality trigger. The SSG3000, 202TR and 200STR have identical action and use a conventional onepiece stock and have a 5-round mag. I have not handled the new 205. It seems to have a 2-piece stock like a LeeEndfield and 10-round mag. All barrels from the Sauer 202 huntingrifle in short and medeum caliber fit the matchrifles.

All matchbarrels also fit the 200 and 202 hunting and varmintrifle in std. length action. Almost... Sauer has made the receiver on the huntingrifle a little bit to long. I think it's 2/10mm. Go figure. Remove this and all barrels are dropin. No problem with headspace. The bolt locks into the barrel. This rifle has a 2-piece stock. All different stocks interchange in the same length action.All are "dropin" an do not need any bedding.  

The following sell barrels foe these rifles: Sauer, Heym and Border.

Hello Pat!

Here's a teaser. Raufoss factoryammo in 6.5x55:


RA  6,5  SKAN Super Sierra

9,3g / 144 gr.

770 m/sek


RA  6,5  SKAN Super Sierra

9,1g / 140 gr.

800 m/sek


RA  6,5  SKAN Super Sierra

9,3g / 144 gr.

800 m/sek


RA  6,5  SKAN Rekrutt Sierra

6,5g / 100 gr.

800 m/sek


Black King (Moly-Coat )  

1011  RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Hi.Sp. Black King  9,1g LD / 140 gr.  850 m/sek

1012  RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King  9,3g / 144 gr.  770 m/sek

1014  RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King  9,3g / 144 gr.  800 m/sek

1016  RA 6,5 Skan Rekrutt Sierra Black King  6,5g / 100 gr.  800 m/sek    

1017  RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King  6,9g LD / 107 gr.  950 m/sek


RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King  6,9g LD / 107 gr.  870 m/sek


TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:45:31 (ZULU)


 On .260 barrel life:  About 40 rounds.

 This remmy pipe sucks.

 (it's a joke son!  Laugh--at my expense though--this model seven just won't stop fouling).

Ken--try building my email into a profile, then blast away.  Others have similar problems if they use the webbrowser mail function (click and blast won't workie to a mil server).  

Hawgs-Official skunking on Blake's first season.  He had a shot yesterday, but he mashed the trigger trying to "hurry the bullet" along.  A real mover, he learned something from it.  Rushing isn't fast.   Other than that, we had a very good time together.  Years of banging his head about "responsibility" made him understand the seriousness of loaded arms.  He was "all ears" throughout the hunt.  If firearms are such an attention-getter, why did we let the bed-wetters nix all the shooting teams in our schools?  I can think of no better vehicle for teaching youth civil responsibility than this!  Blake impressed me--I underestimated the effect of a rifle on his attitude.  I suppose it comes from a healthy respect and years of brainwashing.  He could recite the rules before his ABCs!

Wife had a low-speed pursuit through town.  Sheriff Dept joins in.  Line of cruisers 5 deep, with flankers on the parallel streets (wife was shadowing from the side).  Drunk psycho decides he doesn't like the flashing lights, so he rops reverse.  Lead cruiser stops, but second cop is on the radio.  Lead cruiser takes simultaneous hits from perp in front and cruiser in rear at about 25 mph.  Perp gets his bumper pinned under the cruiser, and goes to jail for left over turkey.  This cruiser is fubar--and bent upward at the cab about 18 inches.  Naturally, the doors are fused.  Cop is pissed, but otherwise OK.  Windows only rolled down 4 inches, so he could only bitch.  If he had gotten out, he woulda beat the perp and the deputy about the head and shoulders.  City versus County bickering over who pays what.  Wife laughed so hard after the arrest that she dropped her doughnut!  I laughed too when she relayed this, and I spilt my beer!  Cops have a cool life...where else outside of the stooges can you see this stuff????

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 17:30:23 (ZULU)


Failure to pay attention to detail will get you in trouble, hurt, or maybe dead. Since you missed it before I will repeat it again, 1000 yards is not 1000 meters. 1000 yards is 914 meters. Please note yards and meters are not the same thing. Firing at a humanoid target located 1000 meters down range using a sight setting developed for 1000 yards is a guaranteed miss regardless of the cartridge. I said they had not shot at 1000 meters. U. S. Military Posts do not have 1000 meter KD ranges. It is a very common error to misrepresent ranges substituting meters for yards and many U. S. trained snipers refer to shooting 1000 meters when they have in fact possibly shot at 1000 yards. Since you needed to tell me you have fired at 1000 yards, I HAVE shot at 1800 meters with a Remington SR8 at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1998 and this is on record. Please note I said meters. 1800 meters is 1968.48 yards. Should you need the conversion in the future, 1 meter = 1.0936 yards i.e. 100 meters = 109.36 yards.

Marc Palmer <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:05:58 (ZULU)

Joe M, seems I finally got an E-mail off in your direction.  You can't cut and paste anything from the internet and send to your address.  That makes for lots of typing.  Oh well, life's hard all over.  

Marc, my semi-local range now has a 1200yd line, so I can shoot and zero at 1097.3m and at 1000m too, should I so choose.  Regardless, if someone is using one system or the other CONSISTANTLY they will have no problems.  I use yards, and when I call the arty boys and use yards when I ought to use meters, it won't mean a thing because 155mm DPICM STOT missions have kill radii in the hundreds of meters(or yards;-)  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:26:07 (ZULU)


 Holy cow!  All this time I thought meter was French for yard!  Thanks for the heads-up on that one.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:31:39 (ZULU)

Joe: The truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

Rich: Shhhhhhhhhh ! I got Brit friends that think I just wear the pink stuff for them.

Mark D: Don't listen to Rich Johnson. He's lying Mark. You know you're the only one.

Wes: 1911, BHP, Sig220, Glock. In that order, for me personally.

USP/S&W autos bite.

Glock: AK of the pistol world, No soul but works - Both damn good descriptions.

Knives: Within about 21 ft. a guy with a blade OUT will usually beat a guy with a pistol IN. No boom, no flash. Most don't practice knife fighting anymore. Just left the mecca of old world knife fighting in the US - The Big Easy, New Orleans, LA.  ... just curious.

A Bagwell Bowie starts at $ 900.00. Am aware of the new copies.

Great, great Grandpa is said to be quite possibly Jean Lafitte himself (according to some of the family stuff).

Go figure ...

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:35:17 (ZULU)

CDC- You have incoming with attachments.

BRogers-- I really was curious about your thoughts re: pistol training, hit me up on e-mail to avoid further sh@$ storm.


Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:38:54 (ZULU)


I'm gonna hafta challenge that often mentioned 21 foot rule.  Here's the test... you get a plastic knife and setup 21 feet from me.  I get a cap gun in my belt.   Someone yells go and I start running away from you and you start running at me....Bet I get to shoot at you 10 times over my shoulder before you touch me with that knife.

Maybe I'm wrong, but at this moment, I'm unconvinced.

edit added for clarity - I previously established on this roster that I am a terrible shot with a pistola... the idea would be to have knife man slow up just a bit, so I could get away.

medicjim <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:43:45 (ZULU)


We had a guy bring that up at the academy so we ran through it using paint balls guns and one of those plastic halloween knifes with the retracible blade.  The problems were this:

You first had to turn to run away (letting the BG get closer), its hard to shoot accurately while running, plus you have to look back to see what you are shooting at which mean you arent watching what you about to run into and probably not able to run your fasted with your body twisted.  So you may get 10 shots AT but may not get a hit atleast not a lethal one.  We ran through this with everyone at the academy with the instructor being the Attacker.  19 our of 21 of us got stuck.  It was determine the best approach was to shoot off the hip, side step the charging attacker and use hand to hand defense to try and block the stabbing arm of the attack.  After about 5 slow motion drills.  15 of us made it without injury.

Ty Warren <>
Mobile, AL, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:00:01 (ZULU)


 Bully for you, but like I said we will still have to agree to disagree. By the way I do know the difference between meters and yds but for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone who isn't military uses them. I have shot to 1300yds or 1188.7344 meters with my 6.5x284.

 I am not worried about mixing up yds and meters when I am shooting. I use a range finder in yds or my mil dot master in yds. When I shoot with my son and he uses his military range finder in meters I just convert it to yds.

 I am not intrested in getting into a "Mines bigger than yours" contest. I like the 308s, as I said way back last week, but they can not compete with the 6.5s when it comes to shooting long range in a "Standard" round. Now if you want to talk magnums thats another story but then have you ever looked at the ballistics of a 6.5x300 Weatherby?? I rest my case and enough said.


Pat <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:05:45 (ZULU)


Been quite a long time since posting.

Both you and Sain is correct.  Old training standards talk of the 21 foot rule.(Dennis Tueller drill) If you stand still (key) and the perp comes at you w/knife while you draw to shoot him, you WILL get cut.

On your side, yes, these days, training focuses on movement toward cover and/or movement away from the threat. Most any movement is your ally. No sane person (pun) would willingly stay in a knife fight.

Now, with regard to shooting over one's shoulder while running... e-yow, way bad juju.  Other than perhaps Butch Cassidy or the Sundance Kid, don't know of anyone who can pull that one off. In LE circles, we certainly do not suggest the tactic.  Get distance, cover, then setup & dispatch the threat with adequate and/or necessary volumes of large diameter projectiles.

My dept does this annually with rubber knives & pistols with primer powered cotton wadded boolits. Have some of those friggin expensive simunitions pistols now. VERY good training.

Long gone are the days of John Wayne stand & shoot it out methods. Besides, If'n we didn't teach/train movement, we would be guilty of improper / inadequate training. Numerous supreme court citations to cover such stuff. Wisconsin has pretty decent LE support at the capitol. LE recruit academies even actively support & promote close quarters shots to the face of the perp and CNS shot placement focus. Fairly pregresive these days.


Deputy Doug <>
K town, WI, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:25:36 (ZULU)


I'll scratch your eyes out........

Mark D <>
London, UK - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:28:50 (ZULU)


There's some hot posts going on round here!  Like 'splaining the meter to yard conversion...hell, what's that bent metal thingy hanging under the wood on my guns for? If I hit it just right, the dang thing makes a loud noise and holes appear in my target!

Thank god for the statements of the obvious...most of us here couldn't find a range fan on a hot day...I'd say more on this subject but I have to go to S4 and pick up a box of grid squares and a can of liquid squelsh for the radios.  

Anybody know where I can get some canopy lights for the night jump?

And for the former DATs, we need 3 gallons of track tension...

Marc, you owe Pat an apology for the condenscending remarks...he doesn't have a stem sticking outta his head (as in "cherry").  But thanks, I always wondered why I had two different formulas for ranging.  Nyulck-nyulck...

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:35:47 (ZULU)


a big question about a Rem 700 PSS. If someone could give me some advice, I'll be a happy bunny!

I've bought meself a new Rem 700 PSS (.223). I've used Leupold 2-piece mounts and rings to mount a cheap 3-9x40 scope (until I can get me a Leupold or S&B).

Problem is that I've used my collimator (Always given good zeros in the past), and I've had to add 25MOA of 'up' elevation from mechanical zero to boresight the rifle.

This leaves me with only 5MOA of 'up' adjustment left - not enough adjustment, as I intend to use this at 600yds.

As you are expert gunsmiths (you posses big screwdrivers and even

bigger hammers), do you have any recommendations as to what I can do with this?

I presume that its a barrel alignment problem?

Would 'blueprinting' resolve this problem?

Thanks again,

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:45:06 (ZULU)

Okay boys, guess I better clarify meself.

I ain't talking about going mano e mano against some other martial artist with a knife, gun or H2H. That shit rarely happens in the real world.

I am talking about using a big assed knife, on the street. Now we all know street fighting ain't the dojo.

Most street guys don't know the 21 foot rule.

Most street guys ain't gonna get 5 practice runs at it.

Most street guys ain't gonna think fast enough to run and it will be too late if they do against someone with the will and the skill.

Plus, if they do run, why not let em go ? Beats a ton of paperwork and messing up a good shirt.

Most tactical minded guys, if they are a thinking man, will have either their knife or pistol in their hand because they are savvy enough to see it coming. (Unless of course, you been drinking hurricanes and then you go for the one in the middle).

Jimbo: Get a buddy and give it a go some time. Switch weapons and positions for grins. Of course, YOU ALREADY KNOW he's going to charge with a knife. That gives you a little bit of an edge. Most turds would never see it coming 'til it was too late. You might get a shot or two off (starting from the holster) but you are probably going to get stuck.

Mark: You better have supper ready when I get home.

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:06:46 (ZULU)

21 Feet and your gonna cut me with a knife? I guess I must be using a 1911 in this drill! Or you NINJa's can catch bullets in your teeth. How far can a man move in .4 seconds. You better have a head of steam up there or you'd be one dead Ninja. Maybe OJ on his best day if he was running full out but he'd be one dead..uh..quarterback. IF you can go from 0 to 10 mph in 0 seconds you'll get your first round from my glock at about 5.9 feet from where you start. The closer you get the more shots in your face.  

Gee;s this place.

Oh well, Brian I'm gonna send you a picture of my Bowie. Made for me by a friend of mine. IT'll be scanned for V and in a J Peg. .

Brogers <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:19:21 (ZULU)

What is it about the PSS?

What is it about the PSS that evokes such emotion?  I mind my business and don't start with anyone.  When shooting pistols or shotguns, other rifles, even the SKS no one has a problem, but likely as not some Dick Head will  have to talk some shit when I'm shooting the PSS.  Is it because it's configured as a sniper instead of a sporter?  Is it the bipod?  Maybe its me.  

No, couldn't be.  

Does a Stealth bring Dick out too, or is it just the PSS?

D. Wiede <>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:23:27 (ZULU)

Bisley Tee-eye-dubba-guh- rrrrr,

 I just had a very similar problem with a model seven and loopy two piece bases.  The rear sits lower on the reciever than it should, causing one's bullets to burn worms.  Not good.  My quickfix was to slap a scope on her that had enough elevation to get on zero.  Next is either shim (probably not--the Mod 7 has very little bearing surface at the rear as is) or just go with the weaver one piece and lots of locktite (three screw mount).  It appears that you hit the same problem.

Could Remmy have changed the reciever dimensions?  Did Loopy screw the pooch?  

Lito--what say you?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:35:29 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger -   use brass shims under the rear mount to get the lelvation back.  All of us use some sort of sloped base to solve the problem.   Badger base and rings will solve the problem for you as the base has 20 MOA built in.

Pistol Country - The way you guys argue about pistols, sound like an arguement about the best wife/girlfriend.  Their is one that's the best and she is mine!!!!!HA......   Don't rifle's take enough of your time?????  CDC is right, train with what you have.  I have seen just about all the named types work with training and practice.  For me,  a pistol is a last resort weapon.  I want it to work when I need it regardless of how long it has been since a cleaning, how wet it has been for the last week in the Swamp woods, or what type of cheap ammo I have in it.  I shoot Glocks because i like them and they meet my criteria batter than any other, I also have a Kimber 1911 and a Colt Combat Comander SS.  I like the 1911's for carry around town where things are clean. But for field work/ Hunting sidearm/ or a combat arm the Glocks are what I choose.

Moe -  From what I have heard your info is correct on the 6.7mm x 45 M-16 round.  Looks like several boolet weights are being tried, from 90 to 130 grains.  

My thoughts on the 6.5 thing.  They are all barrel burners when pushed buy enough powder to give you magnum performance.  Without the big push they are just like any other caliber.  I am a big guy so I look at it as a lot of .300 WM wanna be's that are not tough enough to handle the real deal.

I will duck now and wait for the incoming.

Bruce -  Got the License plate and sticker last Friday.  Really neat and I appreciate your making these for us.  Thanks


Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:36:38 (ZULU)

B Rogers... one thing is fur sure.. 9mmP, 40 cal or .45 cannot be depended on to stop a man dead in his tracks with one round... heck, not with three.  I have had 'lovely' conversations with men that collected a round in the face from any/all of the above mentioned calibers... they were darn sure capable of knifing me at the time.

I was having fun at Mr Sain's expense because I really like the guy and appreciate his humor.. we all know that teaching cops the limitations of thier issue weapon is critical to survival.

medicjim <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:37:35 (ZULU)


You guys been watching to much tv!!   When people get shot they dont just fall down and say "tell my wife I love her" and die.

I have seen a man shot 3 times with a .38, all tourso shots, standing on the corner trying to flag down the ambulance. I asked the guy when I saw him if he knew wear the guy that got shot was? He said very calmly "yea me" well alrighty then!

We arn't saying you can't get some hot lead into the bad guy. We are saying his momentum will carry his body into you unless you are doing some serious back stepin, and unless you scored a central nervous system hit high in the body you have not take his ability to fight.

If anyone pulls a knife on me they are gonna get 14 rounds of .45

really quick.

I have seen knife wounds they are real bad.

Jim Anderson <>
OKC , OK, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:44:17 (ZULU)

Bill, you should go to any of the big schools and take on all comers.  Do something that favors a quick draw artist - a Mozambique will do - then report back.  Or you could just go undefeated through the Steel Challenge.  That should be a breeze.  Leatham's draw is somewhere around .65 sec.  He wouldn't stand a prayer.

These pups who only THINK they know something about the subject will handicap themselves by shooting 1911s.  Of course you'll beat them all easily.  It won't be any contest.

I've shot against some guys who had impressive credentials and whole rooms full of trophies, but I've never seen anyone as good as you.  

CDC' <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:47:30 (ZULU)

D. Wiede,

 OK, I gotta ask---is your first name "Dick"?  I mean, well, Dick Weed has a cool ring to it.  And if you grew up with that moniker, you gotta be one tough bastich!!!!

 But on the range thing...the M3 LR will get the conversation heading south with "serious hunters" doing their annual three shot zeros.  Must be those big dangerous knobs!   Now you know why I bought a farm and built my own place to shoot.  I don't suffer fools very well.  And the "public" ranges attract all kinds.  Next time someone makes a smart-assed comment about your equipment--check out the rifle in their hands.  Two to one it runs Ruger MK 77, 710, 7400 or 7600.  With a Bushnell on top.  Someone else pointed that out to me--and the couple of times I had negative comments--it was a 7400 and a ruger.  Oooops.  I am profiling.  Someone call the PC police!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:51:10 (ZULU)

Medicjim,standing within 21 feet and most guys would have you before you took two steps the other way. You would look like a lamb being eaten by a lion. You have no choice but to fight that one out.  I have worked with this too much to dispute what Brian said.

Now if I had to rate pistols, the 1911 is first, then the Glock, then the Sig, then who cares they are about the same.

All NG,AD's whatever you wnat to call them are shooter induced and generally a training issue. Finger goes on trigger and the weapon goes bang, as long as it has ammo and is in good working order.


MIkeMiller <>
CA, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:53:11 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I have that box of grid squares and the liquid squelch you need, trade you for some chemlite batteries, a hundred feet of shore line, or a set of Humvee keys.

As far as the knife/gun thing, I might get stuck, but he WILL get shot!

Geeze, I go to Jersey for a few days for a wedding, and miss the pistol country debate, let's see, where's my S&W Model 28??????

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Florida, Land of the TH-57's - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:58:19 (ZULU)


 Yeah...and apply four coats of hand-rubbed rotor-wash on yer frog--it'll go fasterer!


Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:06:55 (ZULU)

OK, who says you will be lucky and have your assailant as far away as...hang on, let me work out the maths.... 6.40087m, ( Marc is that 21 feet?) what if the SOB is only a couple of feet away, you won't get time to draw before he has stuck you. What if you aren't allowed to carry a firearm as a means of self defence? Either you have had the mind to get some un armed combat training and can hope your reactions are quick enough, or your screwed. On 2 occasions i have been confronted with a mean son of a bitch with a knife, The first one was about to stick my Dad in the belly, Army hand to hand combat training ( and a 4ft part of a cleaning rod for a Chieftan tank) saved the day. The SOB was out cold for 4 hours and got 17 stitches, his gang mates got rid of the damn knife ( it flew out of his hand when i battered him)and carried him off to hospital. We made a retreat in doors and they knew i owned a shot gun so they didn't follow (the gun never came out of the safe)I got busted by the cops (although it was my mother that called em)because the 5 gang assholes said i had started it, Yeah right,the fact that they where out side our damn back door and had been waiting for me to come home so they could give me a kicking didn't count for a fart, Luckily(for me) one of them got into a fight a couple of weeks later and knived some one and that reflected on my situation favourably. Second time i've wrote about before, Ruskie pimp pulled a knife on me out side a video shop, this time i pulled my pistol and he shit his self. On both occasions I ( or my Dad) was very very lucky that the guy with the knife was hesitant, not quite at the stage of an all out attack(although a split second from it in case 1) Both times the situation could have gone the other way. People who use knives are nasty, and Yep the UK is a dangerouse place ( and Germany is getting there too).

I see we are back to the Yards-Meters thing, METERS ARE EASIER TO WORK OUT, ITS ALL 1's or 10's.

TorF, I've got 2 of those new Heym match barrels you mention (although one is sporter weight) they shoot REAL well.and yeah i think they make barrels for the Sauer too, I was tinkering with the idea of having a Sauer 202 with a 308, 20" moderated barrel, be just the job for the UK, Have to leave the barrel at my parents though. I will buy a 202 if this stupid 5 gun rule comes out, I would certainly want to spend some time swapping barrels back and forth and making a data book about swapping so i could gain confidence in it, but like i said before, the Sauers i have played with up to now ( all 200's and 202's) haven't varied more than a half inch or so when removing and replacing barrels. I just don't know if i would want to go into harms way with one of this type, i guess i'd have to have confidence in it first, just something in the back of my mind says give me a rifle that has the barrel screwed in tight. I guess maybe it is the Blaser R93 that has put me off switch barrel jobs, but it doesn't compare with the Sauer rifles in quality.

Brogers was that a Sig SHR 970? a mate (he's a Sgt in a Brit Tankie Regt) has one, he likes it better than the Rem 700 i sorted out for him(blaspheming git that he is, but he would insist on that damn Choate stock, heavey sucker to hunt with) I call it the poor mans Sauer 202. They are all the same company, Blaser-Sig-Sauer any way.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:07:32 (ZULU)

Dan what do you want from me? You wanna video? I've seen Leatham's he's a fine shot. Where does it say I can beat him in anything I've ever posted? My stuff ain't about metal plates and paper targets. You've not seen me, why do you assume I can't?  Leathams draw and mine are like apples and oranges. He's got his hand on his gun in my video of him when he starts   . But your right about one thing .65 doesn't stand a chance. Why don't you send me one if you want to prove something. Go ahead and scare the hell out of me!

Remember cowboy, you started this one! I've not bothered you.

You think I'm full of it so just go ahead and announce it. Who's feelings are you sparing. You don't have a damn thing to base it on.

You guys and your scenerios that change every five minutes.

I'm sorry I've ventured an opinion, on the some kind of 21 foot rule. Hell you can say the same thing about a damn water buffalo.

I don't need this shit. I'm gone and I won't be back.

You guys can shove this place up your ass.

Hows that for a Christmas present? Danny Boy!

Brogers <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:14:42 (ZULU)

Fellas ...

Didn't mean to start a war with the knife thing. Was just kickin' around the idea of getting some training that I do not have.

I got a friggin' brace o pistols, and my pick from the safe of ALL the models mentioned here on PISTOLA COUNTRY in the last week. Believe it or not, I am somewhat proficient with them.

I usually carry at the very least a KelTec .32, a nice sized folder and a little Swiss Army. A SureFire light and cell phone isn't far behind.

The back alleys of NO are really dark. Damn ole drunks will shank you if you look like an easy mark.

BILL: Nice knife. Thanks for the pic !  

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:34:45 (ZULU)

Damn Joe,

that's a good idea, I'm donna have to fill out an ID10T form and get me some of that, does it work on cars too?????

Bisley Tiger, As said, go with the plethora of tapered bases. Shims will work, but why mess around?

Yards to meters, there's a difference?????

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Florida, Land of the TH-57's - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:39:24 (ZULU)

I find it hard to believe how bent out of shape people are getting over sawed off, underpowered, wanna-be rifles!  Jesus.  The damn things are your last ditch hope and a matter of personal taste, like a knife.  Caliber and reliability are more important than any given design.  If you know what you're doing and you're well practiced, then it'll work for you.  I like 1911's, I prefer them to the Glock I own, but I would not feel unarmed with either.  Underarmed, yeah.  But I always feel that way without an arty battery on the other end of a radio, so there.  

Joe M, did you receive the second transmission with the actual information in it?  It didn't report as bounce, so I assume it went through.  Nasty word that.    

Working on preping 30-06 brass for conversion to 280 AI.  The dies are on the way.  I'm going to anneal with a propane torch and a pan of water, do I anneal before or after necking down?  I'd rather not collapse the shoulder if I can help it.  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:57:03 (ZULU)

Brian:  No war on my end.  I just posted some things I know about Bowies.  There was some good info posted for those who hadn't heard it before, eg:  Move laterally, don't count on quick stops, don't underestimate them, etc.

On pistola country:  Why should I send anyone videotapes?  My pistol shooting is nothing spectacular.  The only claim I made is that if someone "speed-holstered" on my line he'd be finished shooting.  

And Ken M is right.  A handgun is something you use if a real gun isn't available.

CDC' <>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:57:59 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger...

You didn't say "which" two piece bases you have.  If you have the "STD" bases and rings, toss them in the garbage.

Get a pair of Lupold "QRW" bases for the M700, and a set of Burris "Signature ZEE" rings (medium for normal scopes).  This will solve your problems.  If it turns out that you still don't have enough elevation, Burris makes a kit with many sizes of shims... all of my 1" scopes are in Burris "Z" rings, and are set up so the 100 zero is at the bottom of the elevation turret... it's all "up" from there.  You can get a total of 40 MOA of taper with these excellent rings.

It is NOT a barrel alignment problem... but sometimes a very big hammer does wonders to these kinds of problems ;))


'yote Bate...

>"21 Feet and your gonna cut me with a knife? I guess I must be using a 1911 in this drill!"<

Hell... I'll use a 1911 in that drill, and have time for a beer.  That Ninja fella mush have springs for feets!


Jim Anderson...

>"...just fall down and say "tell my wife I love her" and die."<

If I'm divorced, and hate my "Ex", does that mean I'll survive all the gun and knife fights ;)))


Dick Weed...

The problem is that many of us have owned PSS's (I have had 3), and one gets tired of the poor quality barrels, poor workmanship, poor stock to action fit, and two day cleaning rituals... I know that yours is great, but the rest of us are tired of it, especially in a gun that is typically $150 over it's twin varmint version, the VS.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:14:25 (ZULU)

 Man, ever notice how the most condensed, useful, info to brainchew comes out here during the pissing contests? This site is at it's best informationwise during these running, heated arguments....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:35:07 (ZULU)

What the f!ck are you bitches babbling about now.....

'Yote Bait,

You can't stay in the sage brush forever mang,,, youse got to come home for supper.

21'??  If I can run away,, I will.  Scared feet run faster than angry feet.  If I have to fight,, I will,, but you best be prepared to kill me,, cause if I have to fight I'm gonna kill you,, even if I have to eat your goddamn throat.

D. Wiede,

Yes,, assholes come out of the woodwork when the stealth comes out of the case.    It don't matter who makes the black rifle,, the ignorant are drawn to fat tubes like crack whores to truck stops.

Meter vs. Yards... the M60 ranges in Wieldflicken were in meters in the early 90's,,,  the M-16 ranges at Campbell were yard in the mid 90's...  If you're ranging you're target instead of guessing,, who gives a shit what units you range in?


You lucky SOB,,,,  You make me wanna cry every time I read one of those posts.  Hope you and Jr. had a good visit.  After seeing how this 260 is gonna do,, you still thinking about a 6/22-250?

It hit 18 degrees last night in TN.  You can tell it's winter because everyone is getting at each others throats,,,,  Kinda like family,,,, I'm off to find the batteries for a PRC E-8,,  ya'll try and behave...


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:40:41 (ZULU)

Lito - D. Wiede and Joe are talking about other shooters  at the range........LOL  

I did what Joe did and bought land and have my own range.  Even guys I know at the Sportmans club seem to get all stupid when a M1 or M3 LR comes out on any rifle.   I shoot Ar-10's alot so I really get the attention from the idiots.  I get tired of explaining that it is a .308 and not a .223 Bushmaster.  My Stealth in the Woodland A4 stock with the M3 is a surefire idiot magnet.  I am amazed how many guys saw one just like it in Desert Storm on the Discovery Channel re runs!!!!!

BRogers - take a deep breath.  I think you took some good natured ribbing too seriously.  I didn't even ask if Shepturd makes a scope for a Glock????? LOL HA HA LOL. One thing the Pistola debate shows is how personal are choices are.  Pistols are like women,  their are different ones out their with differing taste, but they all get the job done. But the one you picked is the best for you, and you better know it.....or you are in for a world of hurt if you feel otherwise.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:47:51 (ZULU)

CDC, You said "No war on your end". I just read your post and can not think that your intent was anything but to poke at him. Here is what I found provocative,  

"These pups who only THINK they know something about the subject will handicap themselves by shooting 1911s.  Of course you'll beat them all easily.  It won't be any contest.

I've shot against some guys who had impressive credentials and whole rooms full of trophies, but I've never seen anyone as good as you."

How else would a person take this? It appears to be a personal attack to me. Bill has a long standing challenge, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! It is not right to intentionally start crap then back down time and time again. Christ your begining to act like Dean. I have supported you and this is the way I am repaid. Thanks.

Rifle Post:  What size Decelerator pad do I need to order for my Stealth. I will probably need to remove 3/8" off the stock.

Dirty Steve, Out


Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:59:37 (ZULU)

Switch barrels-the screw in barrel on the Browning MG's was primarily for headspace adjustment.  There used to be considerable variation in base of case to datum line on shoulder variation in ammunition lots.  It was felt to be desirable to be able to adjust the gun for any deficiencies in ammunition and normal wear. [I've got part of a lot of 1970's vintage FN '06 with this problem.  It was sold for scrap and was supposed to have been pulled for components.  BUT SOME GREEDY SOB SOLD IT AS AMMUNITION!  Keep this in mind when you buy surplus ammo.]

The setups with the locking lug abutments in the barrel pose possible headspace problems unless a separate bolt/bolt head is supplied for each barrel or the spare barrels are chambered to produce acceptable results for THAT bolt.  Like to see how Sauer does theirs.  Maybe real tight QC on bolt face to rear lug dimension?

Knife Country- the fast time for the 21 foot footrace in one advanced class I went to was 0.87 seconds by a 47 year old WM Deputy from Detroit.  Average time for the class was 1.38 seconds.  Back when I was a Range Instructor I used a PACT timer and the average time range for an officer to react to a shoot signal they KNEW was coming and fire his/her first round was 1.5-1.75 seconds.  I'm sure there are those for whom the laws of time and motion stand still, but for the rest of us, have an alternate plan to stand and shoot.

Personally, if the knife is in their hand, MY sidearm isn't gonna be in the holster unless I've got a real gun in hand.

WR Moore <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:06:10 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Thanks for the response.  The D. is worse than Dick, that's why I go by Wiede (like Tweedy etc. etc. etc).  As far as being tough goes-youv'e heard the song "A Boy Named Sue"?  Actions speak louder than words and I don't have to talk shit to anyone.  


Admittedly the rifle is a POS.  But why do you get so emotional about it.  Were you ripped off when you bought your three.  The SKS is a POS too But doesn't cause name calling, chest beating, etc. It's just a stick, of which I have many too.  Just 'cause I carry it to the crapper doesn't mean I'm married to it.  

FatBoy,  Titan

Thanks for the response.  Thought it was me for a min.  

Nah...couldn't be me.

Wiede (like Speedy)

D. Wiede <>
Baltimore, Getto Wars, Going home in 1 piece daily - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:20:05 (ZULU)

D. Wiede,

 Mang, I hope the Dick Weed joke (LOL) doesn't stick...I'll be buying you beers forever.  How 'bout Sir "John Thomas" Weed?  All you Maryland dwellers out there--I get through those parts twice yearly--my whole family is stuck in that hole.  Might hafta get some beers in...

 I like the "comments at the range" topic.  Makes me wanna take the old M21 out to a public facility again just for conversation.  

One question on this CQB knife fight thing:  If the antagonist is armed with a 42" cleaning rod, do I give him 24 feet instead of 21 feet?  Scared hand-gunners wanna know...

I crack myself up.  

I found a bag of apples in the root cellar (trees all over the farm).  Mmmm.  Delicious.  Wife kicked my ass for eating them.  Seems they were for the Thanksgiving pies....

Lito--this is stupid question day, so here it is:  Will dialing a scope all the way up and leaving it there screw the turrets up?  The new 3x9 tactical loopy is set up thatta way.  I have visions of magazines loaded for too long--you know, spring fatigue.  I know that there ain't springs involved, but I wonder about it all the this in any way bad for the turrets?  

I await your newspaper swat...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:24:37 (ZULU)

"Switch barrels-the screw in barrel on the Browning MG's was primarily for headspace adjustment" and for swapping barrels when you got the first sucker too hot..

The Sauer quality control is very good, and thier production line is state or the art, tollerances are minimum, and the bolt lugs and barrel lugs cam together creating a tight headspace.Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:37:20 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

I got a Pacmeyer magnum recoil pad directly from HS Precision a couple years back.  It was only $10+ shipping and it has Winchester stamped in the back instead of Pacmeyer,, looks factory.  It still had to be fitted.  

This may save you some $$ and get a factory look.

Charles Hunt,

You make the trip home safe mang?  Hope all went well, and nice to meet a fellow Rosterfarian.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:44:13 (ZULU)

Steve:  I was telling Brian that there was no war concerning knives from my end.  

You wrote, " It appears to be a personal attack to me. Bill has a long standing challenge, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!..."

Put up what?  I made no claims of being able to do a .4 sec draw to hit.  That's because I CAN'T.    

"It is not right to intentionally start crap then back down time and time again."

I agree.  So who did that?  If you say that I did, please quote chapter and verse.  Be specific.  You'll notice that I make no claims as to my shooting ability, and - when someone says that I'm a good shot - I ALWAYS say that I'm no better than fair.  Go through the archives carefully and find something I posted to the contrary.

"Christ your begining to act like Dean."

If I did what you said, I would agree.  I didn't so I don't

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:51:18 (ZULU)

'lito, incoming, n/a, Rem .22-250



Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:53:21 (ZULU)

Pistol Country,

about a year or so ago Bolt (I think) posted an expierence he had while he was out hunitng with a friend.  They happen upon a snake on the trail and bolt drew up to shoot the snake.  As he did so the things head exploded.  The guy he was hunting with shot the snakes head off, from the hip, with a rifle that had no sights.  As I recall, the gentleman told bolt to stop aiming and get busy shooting.

This has stuck with me, and it's what Kevin was getting at a few days back.  So long as you have the tool, the skills and the will to use it,, does it really matter what you like best?

Knife Country,

In '93 our sister company C 6-502nd Inf got a new Private (PV2 Asay).  He had been in Germany less than 3 months when he was attacked on an S bahn late one night with his buddy.  A Turk(Kurd,, whatever) came up behind him as he sat in the seat with his buddy and cut his cheek open from the corner of his lip to the tip of his left ear.  Asay pulled out a pocket Gerber, blocked the guys advance and jabbed the knife into the guys armpit as hard as he could.  He couldn't pull the knife out it went in so hard..  Just as he did the the train stopped and the Turk jumped off.  Asay went strait to Blanchfield and got treated, as well as called the MP's and Polizi(sp??).  They found the Turk dead the next moring, about 200 yards from the train stop, bleed to death...  Guess a Gerber folder was good enough that day,, but Asay wore a scar 5" long from one of those curved bladed shives them bastards carry..

So how do you guys carry these long blades?  I found an M9 Bayonet to be irritating, I can't imaging a 13" long Bowie.  Is it a ruck carry or do you keep it on your web gear?


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:01:38 (ZULU)

OK enough of this getting pissed off at each other crap.

Here it is in a nutt shell. Brogers is talking what he can do in a range game he plays. For him the Glock is faster. So be it.  I beat up on him pretty good because I train not as a game. Matter of fact I really beat up on the IPSC Game boys because they have tactics that suck. We are talking different things here.; No reason for you to go anywhere. Certainly not from my perspective. I would miss you so stay you old fart.LOL

The whole thing about the 21 foot crap, is this. If someone is within 21 feet of you and suddenly attacks they will reach you before you, can identify the threat, react and move to stop it. Its adding all the varibles. Now if I have two guys stand and face each other and I yell go, one runs at the other he will get center puched by the other guy shooting him, because they both start to react at the same time. We teach guys this so, they add the step to the side as they shoot. Creates reaction time for asssault guy and gives you some advantage back.

Just because we dont agree does not mean we cant enjoy a good discussion.  I hate folks that always agree with me, thats why I like LItto so much.LOL

Joe, no you need a clean patch for the rod so he canm clean your pipes as he goes by.


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:09:48 (ZULU)

Just picked up an AR-10T and was wondering how anybody out there had set up their optics.  Considering something like a Swan Sleeve, but I'd prefer to have some steel to mount by rings on (Badger).  Only ones I've found so far with a taper (20 MOA) are aluminum.  Anything else anybody could say about this thing from experience would be appreciated.

Hold Hard Gentlemen,


Fitz. <>
IL, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:10:40 (ZULU)

Joe M & The Rest of Y'all

Use the e-mail address when you're in this God-forsaken town & I'd be glad to buy you a beer (or whatever your poison).  


Don't sweat the name.  After all these years with it I'm at least tough enough to withstand name calling.


D. Wiede <>
Baltimore, MD, Where Republicans Finally Rule - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:12:56 (ZULU)

>>>>If firearms are such an attention-getter, why did we let the bed-wetters nix all the shooting teams in our schools?  I can think of no better vehicle for teaching youth civil responsibility than this!<<<

If you're looking for a shooting program for young people, look no further than your County 4-H.

I was a 4-H (3) position Rifle Coach for our county for 12 years. Won the district title consistently and fielded several state level teams...and one year a Texas State High Individual. That young man is on his last leg of training before he takes on the role of fighter jock. At this point he's not sure if he'll be flying F-15s, 16s or maybe A-10 WartHogs. Am I proud? Damn right. Our program in this county is still one of the best in the area.

It was a pleasure working with these young men and women. They were always self-motivated and highly competitive. Like one kid's T-shirt said, "Second Place is First Place Loser." Losing was not an option with these young shooters.


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:14:09 (ZULU)

I sometimes coach the jr smallbore league at the local American Legion Hall, quite a few Legions have them.  Same with the VFW.  Almost all states have a junior highpower rifle team and they recruit pretty actively as well.  If the kid shows interest and a desire to shoot, ways can be found to get them to the matches, get them ammo, rifles to use etc etc.  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:39:07 (ZULU)


 B'town and surrounding areas are etched in my brain.  My earliest memories are riding a tricycle in front of our brownstone just before we moved to Riverdale.  That house was pushing crack last I checked...hauled ass back across the tracks asap.  Beer would rock--maybe on my way overseas as beer is scarce where I may be headin'(soon...may have the orders by next week). Gotta swing through and might even have the time.  I'll let ya know.


 I just "discovered" 4H--my "city" upbringing led me to think it was only cows.  Mang, they do it all!  I will get involved (Blake already is) when I return--it looks good for Kuwait for me for the next year.   I hope your boy gets the warthog--most appreciated airframe by the ground guys (next to me in my whirlybird that is).  LOL.  You are proud of him; we parents are proud of you and guys like you.   Thanks for volunteerin'


 What is a good sight system for an M4?  I'd want a tritium style floating dot; mounted directly to the rail (handle is garbage).  I am thinking something quick, two eye shooting.  I played with the first generation, and they were ungodly fast and accurate to 100 yds once you got used to them.  That was a million generations ago.  The loopy CQB looks stout, but is it worth it?  Or is there something better?  This would be a E&E carbine in the cockpit--so sturdiness is a must.  The damn whirlygigs vibrate worse than a lesbo's toy!  There I go again, someone call the PC police before I slam another liberal pet social group.

Note:  I am in my office waiting for a HQs call--bored and posting like a fool.  Brian S, you'll have to get me one of those pointy hats in N.O....a fool has to be in uniform, ya know?  

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:57:48 (ZULU)

Joe M,

While we are on the subject, who took the keys to the gate at the impact area?  Didn't see them on their hook in S4!  HeeHee!

Come on, Yote Bait!  Although we have seen you and CDC disagree before, this takes the cake!  If you want to blow up and leave, ONLY do it for something really big and important!  Not over popgun prowess and the ticks of an old pocketwatch!  Shit, we all know the Coyotes out your way can't afford a Rolex!  And a few of them are unable to comment on your ability due to an early demise!

Mindset is critical.  Smooth is fast.  Safe prevents accidents.  It is not what you see coming, but how you react once it starts.  Really hard to practice that, being every possible scenerio is different.

If you are confident in what you are carrying, that is half the battle.

Stay safe!


PS  Oh yeah, a P220 workie for me!  Bangs every time like a dinnerbell on the ponderosa!

Les Martin <>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:13:45 (ZULU)

Fritz - Congrats on jooining the AR-10 fraternity.   IF you are using an M4 get badger rings for the AR rifles or the Armalite mount.  They Armalite mounts are very well done and come in the 30mm for tactical scopes.  For all other ( Sinister Dave and myself anyways)  Use the GG&G 20 MOA scout rail for the AR-10, not the std 20 moa rail.  Use badger med rings.  The advantage of the scout rail over the STD is that their is room at the back for the flip up rear sight if you plan on using one for back-up with the flip up front sight.  The overhang in the front is just long enough for ring mounting but not to long as to get in the way.  The GG&G is aircraft aluminum alloy, but I have had no trouble with mine. Get yourself tac latch and a sling and your good to go.  Drop me an Email and I will tell you how to fix the mags so they feed right and other booring details.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:30:30 (ZULU)

DAN: Plan to contact you off line 'bout them big knives. Better yet, shoot me a phone number to my mail. (if you don't mind that is).

DICK WEED: Hey, I feel your pain. Been INSANE since the first grade. Kids can be so cruel. I let 'lito think he cornered the market on that moniker. Gotta a Sergeant named Blitch. he hee.

Pistols like women ... yep.

Kinda like cowboy hats too. Everybody's got their preference in color and crease. Most folks that know horses here wear black or a silverbelly (gray) in winter and a straw in summertime.

But ... no matter what it looks like, somebody says something about yer damn hat and the fight is on. Used to make you check 'em at the door at the VFW dances.

Used to dip the brim in sugar water to make 'em stiffer. Everybody takes their hat off before a fight and if you were lucky enough to get the first lick in, that brim is a wicked chop to the throat.

My ole black was red on the front edges from dancin' with them tall girls and their lipstick rubbing off when I'd accidentally bump into 'em, lookin' in their eyes and puttin' that sex spell on 'em. (It was gonna rub off one way or another anyway cuz the chicks dig me).

Seen more fights over cowboy hats than women.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:36:57 (ZULU)

Guys; I just need to fade out for a while. I've got a lot of work at the job that needs doing this December. If I get it done it will be a bigger feat than drawing in .4 seconds. I've been home with the flu and still have it and time's getting away. Personal problems have made me too sensitive I guess. Fagadaboutit! One less Geezer won't matter a bit.

Mike's about right, what I said has nothing to do with anything except a very quick snatch and shoot at very short range. From there it's just like everything else. I could send you guys a video in living color and somebody still wouldn't believe it. You know I spent most of my life around a range where if I said I was gonna do something I was right there to prove it. I guess I forgot this is the internet where everything is cyber and false. Honor or truth isn't much of a factor on here. Doubt and suspicion is the rule of the day. When I get time Dan I'll send you a video. You can record cartoons over it if you want. I have your address, back from a time I thought you were a friend of mine.

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:41:08 (ZULU)


Just got incoming mail from your email address and it was infected with a virus, Sir. Might want to scan your files. Guess they are at it again!

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:55:48 (ZULU)

"very quick snatch and shoot at short range ?" - Okay, I'll leave that one alone. he hee.

Seriously guys, ya'll the most sensitive bunch of MEN I ever seen.

Ya'll need to quit wearing your feelings on your damn sleeves and buck up. This is the damn internet for goodness sakes. You know how that shit goes. Half the stuff never comes out like you meant it.

This ain't no tupperware party. We're talking guns and knives and kicking bad guys asses and shit and everybody's always gettin' their FEELINGS HURT ?

So and so hurt my feelings on the internet (rubbing my eyes). I'm taking my ball and going home. Sounds pretty stupid, huh ? Sheesh.

Damn fellas ... wtf ?

BOBBY WHITTINGTON: Enjoyed talking with you today. Take care, sir.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:12:47 (ZULU)

>>>>I hope your boy gets the warthog--most appreciated airframe by the ground guys (next to me in my whirlybird that is).  LOL.  You are proud of him; we parents are proud of you and guys like you.   Thanks for volunteerin'<<<<<

Thanks for the kind words but it was my joy and privilege to help these fine young people...and quite frankly I fed on their enthusiasm. They made my job that much easier. What was really hard was having to make the cut for the team especially when it was VERY close. I had many a kid to "tear-up" after telling him or her the bad news. But that's the way it was...and still is.

It's always a thrill to see one of them years later and to be told how much the rifle program meant to them. Can't put a price on that.

As for the fighter jock (to be)....he's WISHING for the Warthog. The idea of carrying all of that ordnance sort of does something for him...if you know what I mean ;)))


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:28:27 (ZULU)

Big knife carry:  Letting the things flop down on your leg is a no-go.  The classic way to carry a Bowie is with a scabbard that only covers the blade.  There's a little stud that protrudes from it about 1/2" below the guard.  You drop that inside your belt.  A good Bowie has a drop blade kind of like a Kukri.  If a right hander holds a good right hand Bowie point up with the edge away from him, he'll see that the handle curves to the left.  That makes the knife conform to his body.  Believe it or not, you can toss a windbreaker or dress jacket over it and it's not hard to conceal.

That's no bueno for s**t for the field.  When you are coming down a rock slide at 2:00 A.M. the LAST thing you need is an unscheduled appendectomy.  A good Bowie will give you one QUICK, QUICK!

The Cutlery Shop used to make Kydex scabbards that served the purpose well.  I don't know if they still do.

If you go with something without a guard, like an Arkansas Camp Knife, there is something I heard called a "mountain man" scabbard.  BK&T sells an Arkansas Camp Knife that was designed by Jerry Fisk that uses one.  Brad Pitt used a classic design of that sheath in some forgetable movie that also starred Anthony Hopkins.  I still haven't figured out how he got a Bowie into the thing.  Jerry Fisk can line you out on all of this stuff.  He's a Hell of a nice guy and a fantastic blade-smith.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:30:17 (ZULU)


Same here, and like I said, if I can help you in anyway, just holler, and if you find yourself in this neck of the woods, please stop by and visit.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:53:51 (ZULU)

Long post, here we go.

Marc, you owe Pat an appology for your rudeness and arrogance. He's no slouch, and on my limited knowledge of Pat, I'd bet on him over you in a heartbeat. I have my reasons. Play nice, the elders here are respected for a reason. That's both a hint and a jab at Pat LOL.

Well, I just can’t stand to see a good man kept down.

Mike, you and I have been friends for quite some time, and I hope that nothing I say now will change that. I’m completely sincere in that statement. I’ll even admit that the majority of our disagreements aren’t really that as much as me jabbing at you just out of fun, because I know you’re good for the laughs, and that’s going both ways.

I’ll take up the colors for poor fallen Bill Rogers, and the next time we meet, I’ll handle his end of that situation. From the holster, multiple hits, whatever you want. Just make it realistic, like I know that you would anyway. I doubt that I’ll teach you anything, but maybe I’ll be able to demonstrate what Bill was talking about with the mechanical advantage. On the trigger reset, that distance is variable. You can change it to what you want it to be, down to dang-that’s-short. The major difference is that it doesn’t take lots of money to pull that stunt off. Now, I’m not saying that thing is perfection out of the box, I’m just saying that getting it there is a much more cost effective solution. We all agree though, those top three (or seventeen, whatever) pistols are about par, it's the operator and practice that makes the difference.

Bill, your drill on the target, from the holster, first round hit. I haven’t measured to compare, but I’ve done extremely similar drills at very comparable distances, both closer and farther. My reaction, draw, and first round times range between (I edited this section after reading CDC's post. From what he wrote, it would sound like I was a liar. Guess it's better seen than printed) seconds, depending on range. I will admit though, I’m not an advanced pistolero. At 9 feet, the advanced pistoleros that I run with are firing while I’m drawing, and they do it with a one-hand hold. When I asked why they transitioned that way, I was told that small distances need small times. Although I can’t mimic them completely, I do try on occasion. On being able to rotate the cylinder and not fire the round, at first I was going to poke at you and say that if you went to a Smith, you wouldn’t have that problem. Just poking fun though, I know you can do that with a Smith, but with an improper Colt, it does that when you don’t want it to. By the way, on the Colts, you can have them changed slightly to keep the stacking monster away, giving an extrordinarily smooth and clean break with the same weight all the way through the travel. All it takes is a little time and a little cash, like everything else. I can explain how they do that, if anyone is interested, but I doubt they are.

TorF, keep preaching the faith brother, keep preaching the faith. Someone out there will hear it, and take heed. Maybe. If not, at least you did your part.

Mr. Bolt, I've got a question for you, because I figure it's right up your alley. No, nothing about ebay woodland camo bikinis LOL. Since you work on reels, and I'm assuming they're aluminium, what you use to strip the old grease out of them without disturbing the paint or anodizing? I'd hate to ruin the finish I've got doing something stupid, but Hoppes #9 hasn't made a dent in this old stuff.

And now for my stupid question for the semester, professors. I know that Badger Ord makes some great bottom metal. Same for Ross, and some others I've caught. My question, and sorry if this smacks of heressy, is WHY? I'm not questioning why bottom metal should be steel instead of aluminium, or hardened instead of thin. I'm asking why there should be any bottom metal at all. Other than a solid steel, wide trigger guard that is. Why not have a blind mag? With all these nifty turnbolts out there, all using bottom metal, I have to question what the reasoning is, and why I haven't been properly educated by you slackers prior to this. Is it nothing more than giving the action something solid as one piece to clamp the stock into? Hard to believe that an ADL is less rugged than a BDL, but that flies in the face of conventional wisdom. So educate me! LOL

Joe Mahon, you're still one of the funniest on here, hope things keep getting better for you, say, for the next 80 years. If you just get better looking long enough, you'll be like Brian and myself. Chicks dig us. On the spring fatigue, theoretically, it's a nonissue. Springs are supposed to stay compressed, indefinately, if correctly made, and not lose tension. In the real world, we have temperature extremes, stuff that eats at the spring itself, shocks, etc. Most of how a spring reacts to being compressed for long times has to do with how much it costs to produce. Sad, but true. Good stuff costs. Lesbo toys! HA! Let me get the popcorn. On the hats though, the chicks dig the Stevie Ray Vaughn look LOL.

And Bill Rogers, you know you ain't leaving any time soon. Remember that, or I'll have to dress you up in Steve's blue dress and pumps prior to administering an over-the-knee spanking LOL

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 04:10:07 (ZULU)

Ok Guys,

I appologize to Pat for my impatience, I get very tired of explaining that I said meters in the first post,not yards and that was the point of the comment!


Marc Palmer <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 07:42:55 (ZULU)

I love working on the computer at 3:00 AM... I'm listening to "Art Bell" on the radio, and some guy is going on about area 51, aliens (NOT from Mexico ;), and underground cities beneath the Sahara Desert... you gotta love this country!!  Only in America! ;))))))))))))))))


Hey 'yote Bate...

Don't you dare leave.  I don't want to be the only endangered species "Fossel" on this site (Rick is only beginning to catch up)... hell, you're the only guy I know that loves the .41!!



Got your e-mail... your lipstick clashes with your purse ;))


Dick Weed...

I ain't emotional about... well maybe a bit.  That's cuz I remember when Remington used to make a really fine rifle.  But it ain't just the PSS... it's Remington M700 quality all together.  I just bought a M700 light walkin' varmint rifle, and the list of stuff wrong with it filled a full page, and I will take MAJOR work to get it to the point that it should be when it came out of the box!!  That Sucks... and what about the guy that can't do the work??  He eats the big weenie, cus Rem WON'T make it better!


Joe M...

Scope question?  NO! No worries Mate!

Which Riverdale you talkin' about... north of NYC??


Bobby Whittington...

I didn't send you no "Disease" (you got it on leave, from that woman! ;))

This current virus doesn't get generated at the the senders address, it comes from somewhere else.  I had this computer off line (and I MEAN "OFF", like taken apart) for 8 weeks, and guys were saying that they were getting infected mail from me.  Plus, this machine has been back on line for about 2 weeks, and is squeekie CLEAN!

Maybe Ken can explain it... but I do know that if I get a virus sent to me from one of you guys, you didn't send it.


Warthogs ROCK!!  My favorite (current operational) plane!  A6's are my second favorite :))



I can Garri-damn-tee you that Pat knows the difference between yards and meters.  He knows a bit more than that too.  In a match between you and him... out to 1300 yards (OR meters), I know where I'd put my money.  But he's dog ugly! HA!


It's 16 degrees here, and I'm going back to bed.  Winter SUCKS!! :((



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 08:32:40 (ZULU)

Changable barrels?

Anyone tried the Savage system yet? They're selling wrenches and headspace gauges and even bolt heads to change boltface size.


Hang around man, some of us respect you for who you are not so much what you can or cannot do.

I received a flyer from Crimson Trace yesterday. The new NIJ numbers, whether one believes them or not, indicate 80% of all conflicts occur in low or failing light. The second "fact", their term not mine, is the all to common "7 yard" reference. Most incidents are still occuring this close. The 3rd feature is almost all confrontations involve the movement of victim or attacker or Both. Even among veteran LE there are 6 or 7 things which will probably occur... target fixation, limited near vision acuity, narrowed field of vision, auditory exclusion, time will slow down, "spray and pray" reflex MAY develop and vaious sympathetic nervous system reactions. I was told by a learned individual once that in almost every gunfight one of the shooters will be shot in the hand that is holding the weapon. So take your sights off and go shoot rats in the dump at night with a streetlamp in your eyes. Obviously, Crimson Trace is trying to make a point for their product, but the "facts" are there. The faster you produce and accurately discharge your weapon the more likely you are to survive long enough to answer the civil suit that is sure to follow.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 10:41:12 (ZULU)

By the way....

According to NDIA magazine, Sen. John McCain R.AZ. missed the vote on the $355 billion defense spending bill. Where was he? In NYC preparing to host Saturday Night Live. For the record, he was opposed.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 11:06:29 (ZULU)

On the blade thread....

  If you regularly tote a sidearm concealed {IWB holster} with spare ammo {mag pouch, speedloader case, 2x2 pouch??} and stuff a Bowie in your pants also, doesn't it get a bit crowded in your waist band, not to mention heavy???

  Anyone ever tote a boot knife??  I wear packers a lot and, when I carry it, find my old Randall rides quite nicely in the right boot..Not lightning quick to get to but it's there if needed.  

  Is that a Bowie knife in your pants or are you just glad to see me??  

  Andrew T...Get an 870..A SPAS! can you say heavy??

Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 12:59:24 (ZULU)

Markwell:  You forgot the Surefire light and cell phone.

I carry a little $35 folder in my right front pocket.  The big knives stay home.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 13:40:40 (ZULU)

 Damn guys...Lets all step back and take a deep breath here!! Bill & CD you know how what is written can be taken one way when your meaning something else. You two both are very knowlegable in your areas of shooting and I respect you both so lets shake hands and make up.

 When I was on the Patrol teaching defensive tactics we did a lot of training on the 21' rule and you "Will" get cut if your rushed by a man with a knife. Its damn hard to get a gun out when you busy trying to keep from getting cut.

  We put over a 100 troopers through the training and we cut them all. I am not saying there aren't guys out there who can't draw and put three between your eyes before you get to them but if your not expecting it and they come after you the "Average" duck is going to get cut, period!!!


  No need to appoligize, when I reread my post of "Bully for you" that sure could have been taken as a smart ass remark and was not ment that way, only in jest. Your definatly intitled to your opinion as I am mine. I base my arguments on actual shooting of both calibers. I am on my 3rd 308 barrel and on my 3rd 260 barrel.

  If you went back through the archives (When I first went to the 260) I used to joke about how much better my wind calls had gotten and the reason was I could flat tell a difference in my shooting because of less margin of error due to the better BC. For me wind is the big thing. I can laze the exact range but the wind eats your shorts out here.

  You may not believe this but I could use the same data for the 260 as I did for my 300WM with the 190s at 2800 or 2900fps. I forget just off the top of my head which it was. When I went to the 6.5x284 I noticed a difference over the 260 so you can see why I am a die hard 6.5 fan.

 I am a civilian and I have a choice of what I want to shoot and at my age I need all the advantange I can get!!!! This is why I choose to go with the higher BCs of the 6MMs,6.5s,7MMs. They don't beat you up as bad and they shoot flatter with less wind drift. I think the military is missing the boat but thats way above my pay grade.(HA) Enough on this:):).


  Nope still going to build one, one of these days!! I am looking for an action as we speak(HA).

Pat <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 13:41:01 (ZULU)

CDC..The light, yeh, forgot that...Cell phones do not work here, no need to tote one.  

   outa here


Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 13:56:41 (ZULU)

Sleet here this morning and I'm still inside. What am I gonna do anyway?

Jeager; your friends are exactly correct and that's what this is all about. Very well put, short distances are served with short times. Those who attend these 6 week training seminars and emerge as steely eyed gunfighters are taught to shoot the same way at any range and that works for beginning students and officers. There's really nothing wrong with it if you have the time. This was never about what "I" can do with a pistol but what "anyone" can do. Never did I even mention a time until I was taunted and if there's anyone out there that doesn't believe it hwy 56 Runs right in front of the Gun Range out there. BUt I'm not drivin 1500 miles to show you. I had a video here for 6 months now that nobody's challenged. So brothers, if you think it's bullshit then get out your own Camera cause if you were here I'd cure you in short order. And I'm not mailin a copy to everyone that's curious. We've been through it all before and this is the end of it. YOu wanna use that 100 year old weapon to protect your life it's your decision. I've been there and done it and progressed but I'm the old fart remember! I appreciate the beauty of history of that old gun much more than you realize. It's a thing of art and beauty, like the Bowie I sent to Brian by Jpg. Read my lips, I love the damn things. But for the purposes of what I been trying to get through here it has problems for quick deployment in desperate situations that the Glock and similar pistols now have overcome. What I was trying to do was teach something that I learned after thousands of practice shots and attempts to gain some time. I've sent it to a few. Some got it and some haven't yet. But I'll send it to any SC reader but I'm not going to post it.

Yes, I can get discouraged, and I can just say screw it and walk off after so many months of just begging enough respect to have someone listen without assuming I have nothing to offer. But If this is free for all junction here, then so be it. I've answered ever inquiry that's ever been asked of me, helped every beginner, argued every point I disagreed with since 1996. IF I didn't know anything then, I should know something now cause I've gotten a lot from all of you.

Jaeger; your absolutely right, I do use the Smith but not the Colt. That may have been conscrewed wrong in that post. But I wore out 2 Pythons trying to shoot them as well as I did the Smith's. The model 19 turned out to be my favorite. And by God yes, I can rotate that cylinder and stop it just before I fire and if the distance is close or long I can shoot the damn thing just as accurate as I can by pulling back the hammer and that ain't no brag it's just plain fact.

And if you jokers went to Gunsite or Flakvillage or any other damn place during your summer vacation you better be able to shoot damn fast and damn straight if you wanna make a fool out of me. And my Ass is always here for the kickin with pistol, rifle, knife or Bow. Just so's you'll know.

I get frustrated on here cause it's like this. If we were face to face this BS wouldn't be happening or somebody would be steppin back. Thank you all for listening.  

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 14:54:53 (ZULU)

Jag., dude of course we are friends. I love you like a yound Lab Puppy. Falling all over yourself.  I can learn from anyone, but man you carry a 9mm and think you have the sh...LOL  I need to knock your head with a rock next time we meet, or just have a few brews.LMAO

Will that M25 still hold sub moa?

Bill stick around.


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 15:29:34 (ZULU)

Cat Shooter,

    Don't talk 'bout area 51!  I work for NASA and I know that they are very sensitive 'bout it not existing.

    Wooeee, what a cat fight! big guns, little guns, knife fights, OK corral shoot outs, meters & feet, 21 feet, and then my chance to join in. ---  Brian K.  I love them cowboy hats!  Got a couple myself.  Ya' know why cowboys turn up the sides of their hats?---  So they can set three across in a pickup.

Merry Christmas ya all.

Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 15:38:15 (ZULU)

I have made no claims.  Bill did and I'll take a look.  

Bill:  If you can draw to hit from a controlled position in .4 sec, that beats Plaxco, Leatham and co by about .25 sec.  That's not an insult.  It's a statement of fact.  Giving you a generous .06 each for each of your follow up shots, that gives you a Mozambique before any master class shooter I have ever seen is even on target.

That sounds improbable to me, but I'll check it out.  Show me proof and I'll be delighted to apologise and will appreciate a lesson.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 15:50:26 (ZULU)

Where is all this fighting people keep posting about... all I see is a bunch of "alpha" males politely discussing points of least that's the way it goes round my parts.... seems to me I have heard about New Yorkers being rude, but I'm from Jersey.


Gotcha on the whole surprise thing... the 21' rule only applies if I'm not paying attention to my surroundings.  I'll make sure I don't do that.

medicjim <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:10:00 (ZULU)

Master Bowcher,

Sir, Which ruck is the prefered short mission ruck that Gunny Hathcock described, Australian or Austrian. CheaperNDirt has the Austrian version I believe for $39.95. Original issue with a small pack version. Thanks,

Also, just got my 6.5x20x50AO back from Premier with the Genll reticle and M1 turrets installed. Excellent qualty and workmanship. A small white dot now marks the 10x spot for ranging. Can I use 20x and cut the formula in half or divide by 2 so to speak?


edited to plug Premier.

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:25:47 (ZULU)

CDC; you got a deal, but it'll be a few days before this weather clears. I believe I said a kill zone or lethal hit on a 9'distance target and now you tell me where should my hands be when the clock starts. I just want to be sure we're not talking apples and oranges. YOu will time it yourself on slow motion tape. It won't be an AVII or anything like that cause my Geeks could make that stuff do anything. Just pure VHS and you'll have to slow it down.

I'm talkin from when my hands start to move till the shot goes down. You time it yourself.

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:30:36 (ZULU)


Don't mean to piss in your cornflakes,, but if you waited a few weeks you could have gotten the gen II in the first focal plane ;))


Chris <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:42:11 (ZULU)


By the way, I deleted it I guess but I think I said you'd have to do .4 to beat me. But I'll see what I can do. This 1 second tape draw shoot and reholster looks like about .450 to .475 but it's inside with blanks and the one you get won't probably have the timing in the back ground cause there's no power out there but if we're gonna bury the hatchet on this business and be friends when it's over I'll shoot you one you won't forget.

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:49:01 (ZULU)

Jerry Lee...

>"Don't talk 'bout area 51!  I work for NASA and I know that they are very sensitive 'bout it not existing."<

It's TOoooooooo late!  We already gots one of our peoples IN the place, and his hide is soooooooo good, they can't find him ;)))


Gotta go for a while... I found a ham radio transceiver (Kenwood 130-V) that I have been looking for since it went out of production, and I found one "Brand stinkin' new", in the box w/papers, that had been catchin' dust with a radio collector almost 20 years... new "STUFF" makes life more betterer :)))))))))

Hey waitress... I'll take another order of mac & cheese to go!  :((



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:55:52 (ZULU)

Joe M.

I have a case of propwash left over at the flightschool, if you need it. It's a different color from the rotorwash but works the same. :]]


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:58:45 (ZULU)


 20x ranging?  Probably not, but maybe.  Remember a while back when "calibrating techniques" for variables was discussed here?  Same thing  will most likely apply.  If your scope maxes out at say 19.1x magnification--you'll have error; and that Gen II reticle gives you excellent mil readings--so that would be bad.  Go through the archives, and find the posts on how to calibrate the dots.  Set it up and get a measurement at 20x, and see if your scope is "on."  It may be on off the dial mark slightly--just make another reference dot.  If it tracks, you can use your math to range.

Lito, feel free to correct my interpretation of once-covered stuff.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 16:59:30 (ZULU)


That is the STORY of my life in one sentence. AAAAGGGHHHHHH!! SHIT!

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:01:36 (ZULU)

Joe M.

When I search for it, which argument title do I put in the search. I can't remember what we were argueing (sp) about back then. :)))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:08:03 (ZULU)

Bill, incoming email, no attatchments.

Sean <>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada, eh - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:33:54 (ZULU)

Bill-- I was quite surprised, no shocked, by your comment about "months of just begging [for] enough respect....  Although I have been reading the roster for about three years I am a vrey infrequent poster.  In all that time I have probably read hundreds upon hundreds of your posts and I can unflinchingly say that there is not another poster that I respect more.  Why?  Because there is something about the tone and tenor of your comments that always says you are a shooter's shooter.  Thats not to say that I look at the rest of you dogs as posers - clearly a lot of good stuff comes out on this board and the chicks dig  some of you and that has to count for something.  Stick around Bill- You have too much to offer.


rod hansen <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 17:57:30 (ZULU)

Bill:  .4 from the time your hands start to move is a VERY different thing from .4 from a buzzer.  You're in a two handed shooting position ready for multiple shots, right?  I'd like to see ten straight of them on an unedited tape.  If you could put a big clock in the background, that would let me check that our clocks kept the same time.  That's basic data collection technique.

Of course that won't be the single handed "Queeks Draw."  That is a trivial circus trick.   Bill Jordan could do it with his Model 19 in .14.  That's an interesting piece of film.  Bob Munden could (occasionally) do it in .11.  Eight or ten years ago I saw him try it about ten times from a "gunslinger" holster with a tricked out Peacemaker.  His target was baloons that burst from his muzzle blast.  His best time was .12. He successfully completed his draw six or seven times.  That was all well and good, but would be of limited practical use.  

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:00:00 (ZULU)

Ya'll may call bullshit on this one but that's okay.

I was paired up with a Houston PD auto theft dick at an officer survival class. Both of us were decent pistol guys.

We did a mock felony stop on a car takedown.

The driver got out and started running (and I mean RUNNING, too) west, away from us and swung around to point a pistol at us as he did so.

Using Simunitions in Sig 229s, between me and the other guy, we hit the BG TEN times in the gun hand and forearm on the move. Distance was maybe 20 yards. Have never done anything like it before or since.

The class was pretty much stunned as were the instructors.

Sure lended a lot of credence to the shoot where you look theory and the fact that you always key on the gun, for me anyway.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:12:35 (ZULU)

I though simunitions hurt... ten hits in the forearm... wonder if that guy could even raise his hand to volunteer a second time.

medicjim <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:35:27 (ZULU)

CDC, I tried posting a simliar msg about Jordan and Munden. You must have intercepted my post and cleaned it up some. Cause for some reason it did not post. By the way Jordans time for a Qweeks Draw and shot on target with a "Go" signal was an impossible .3 seconds. At bad breath distance a fast draw and shot is what is needed. It should be practiced for when its needed. most times a two hand hold is definately preffered. But at less than 6 feet this technique should be used or you risk a gun snatch.

Well off to roll call.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:46:56 (ZULU)

Hey fellers,

All this "pistol country" talk has got me thinkin.  I need much more practice on my pistolas.  Since I started coming here in '97 I've learned a ton about LR etc.  I can't seem to find any good pistol sites to give me as good a learnin' as I gots here, so here goes....

What's a Mozambique?  And no, not the country in Africa....



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 18:52:14 (ZULU)

Rich S...

>"What's a Mozambique?"<

You don't want to get one for Christmas ;)))

It's a fast double tap to the torso to rattle the BG, and a fast (but aimed) shot to the head.

The reason is... the double tap to the torso (even if not fatal) will slow down and disorient the BG long enough for the aimed "coup de gras" to the head... it is a shooting pattern that was originated in "Mozambique" in the 70's.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:02:33 (ZULU)

Dan; Where did you get the idea this was a buzzer shoot with 2 hands at the ready? I named the  one hand start from a "I got my hands up dude!" shot from the very beginning.   This has nothing to do with 2 handed IPSC stuff which, by the way, been there done that but I ain't no Rob Latham cause I haven't spent the last 25 years shooting that disicipline and probably could never equal him anyway cause he's one fine pistolero.

I thought we might be talking different kinds of fruit here. The stuff you do and studied at Gunsite Dan, is good practical pistol and it was designed to make good shots out of people from everywhere as quick as possible and as safe as possible and nobodys running it down. It hasn't been 24 hours since I recommended to someone to go there or Thunder Ranch. What I'm talkin about is up close and uncomfortable protection for people who didn't know trouble was coming or find themselves in the middle of desperation.

You may have been conditioned to call it Circus and I really don't have a problem with what you call it. It can save your life.

It's like that double tap business. Guy goes into the 7-11 and finds 3 guys armed and dangerous robbing the place. He pulls his .45 and double taps 2 of em in fine training come to surface style. while the third perp kills him with a .32.  Shit happens. Mosambique what the hell, I've heard of it Lito' thanks for splainin it to me? OH well.

This all started when I said the Glock was better suited for that quick draw or fast deployment business and we been goin down hill from there.

After the first shot goes down the 1911 comes into it's own. I'd much rather change a magazine in 1911 or aim a Bowmar than that Factory Glock site.

Steve said...

"At bad breath distance a fast draw and shot is what is needed. It should be practiced for when its needed. most times a two hand hold is definately preffered. But at less than 6 feet this technique should be used or you risk a gun snatch."

There was never more truer words spoken.

Sam Toole was a personal friend of mine, we went to Gun shows and swapped stories of old lost Gold mines and glory days gone by. His single action feats are legendery and his hands are still in celuloid as a stunt shooter. Know as fastest gun in the world back in the early 60's he was the Bob Munden of his time.  He might be a circus performer to some but to me he was an artist. Sam and I shot different guns. I was a double action man and he was a single action. We understood that, I don't know why you can't make room for something that didn't come out of your Gunsite course Dan?  The rules are different when you put the timer on it. Reaction times is another matter. Blow the buzzer and everyone requires time to react. It's a human body thing then. As to how fast you can drop your hand pick up a gun from a holster when the jig is up is another. Then there's the shot. Some people are faster than others.

I think if I sent you this tape you would change the rules. I don't know what it is you wanna see. I can manage a draw starting with my hands up, when I decide to start it, not someone else or some damn buzzer or the Church clock, like in the "Quick and the Dead!" , and a shot up close into a kill zone, the closer the better in about half a second. IF you've seen Jordan do a buzzer start in .3 and Latham do it in .65 why in the would you question me?

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:50:51 (ZULU)

JIMBO: Simunitions DO hurt. This guy had big red welts all over him by the end of the day.

Musta run about 20 scenarios that day.

Guy looked like Stone Cold Steve Austin, tats and all ... just laughed it off.

Had an old Sergeant here back in the day. Cajun. Was on Iwo Jima. Would let you hold your hands spread apart body width.

On YOUR first move as the GO signal, he would draw and have his pistol in your belly before you could clap your hands.

Used to win coke money from the rookies. He got mine too ...    

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:54:05 (ZULU)

Steve:  Practicing the "speed rock" will program you with two sets of reflexes.  Under stress you go right to habit.  If your habits are screwy, you'll screw up.

Brian:  I'm sure you've seen intermediate shooters' results in simulators.  They shoot more gun hands than Roy Rogers.  It's pretty funny.

Rich S:  Bill disagrees, but, rather than listen to a bunch of internet bullshit, I truly think that your best bet is to schedule the beginning, intermediate and advanced pistol classes at one of the top schools six months apart.  Next you buy two of the pistols they recommend (which will be 1911s) and 20,000 rounds.  Don't even handle the guns until you get to the basic school.  Do what they say the way they say to do it.  Go home and practice their drills their way for six months.  Do the intermediate then do the recommended drills for six more months.  Take the advanced class.

At that point you are a student.  Buy the video tapes, read Enos' and Plaxco's books, then practice some more.

It takes about a year.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:54:29 (ZULU)

Rich S,

 Ya know, I wuz wondering 'bout that too.  I just didn't want to get sucked into the rest of the pistol wars by asking.  

Lito: Thanks for clearing that term up for at least two of us!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 19:58:25 (ZULU)

Bill:  For three guys you do a "Practical Prez."  "Double tap" is an IPSC deal.  Ten or twelve years ago an IPSC shooter got killed in Southern California trying to do a "Prez."  The third guy got him.  He had programmed bad habits.

I must have misunderstood.  .5 at 9' for a "speed rock" you initiate shouldn't be any problem.  It's sure not going to make modern pistol technique obsolete.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 20:05:00 (ZULU)

Rich S,

You have mail.  No attachment, no virus


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 20:42:24 (ZULU)

Whoa Pie Fight City.........Heh-heh

 Bill, Qwicher Whining! You're here to stay

Maybe some fancy m'puter guru can convert the qweek-draw video to an m-peg, or sumfin and we can ALL watch.  I'm game for learning something new too.

FWIW - I don't walk around in "surrender" position, none of the antiquated handgun range quals we utilize at work have surrender drills, nor am I going to "go there" on the street.

 Andy's Dad was right about "The Hit" episode on Miami Vice - too kewl for the combat handgunners of the times - but MAKE BELIEVE tee-vee  stuff.

  Most knowledgeable folks now would  shoot'em as soon as they saw the "claw" if not FAR quicker considering the pre-existing violence of the  scenario.

My limited experiences following a bit of "live lab" testing begining back in 1983-84 with the 7 yard closure MOVING OPPONENT drill are:

Hands on the jelly donut you die!

Hand on the sidearm, (depending on the holster retention level and individual skill) 70-30% you get a shot off, maybe two if yer Qweek, no guarantee of solid hits.

Ready position 50-50% two hits on a MOVING hostile target

Largest controlling "variables" - Mindest, and the experience/ skill of defender & opponent. I've had experieced Sniper Foo folks try dive rolls to close on me, mad rushes, double angular attacks, conventional knife grip, reverse knife grip, double blade attacks etc. etc.

 On good days I came out cut but ahead, other average days I came out  looking like I had slipped and fell through a wood chipper. :-)


 a Randall Eh, kewl...... The whole thingee started about using Hungarian Sabre Techs weeth a leetle big knife..... HONEST!  As little as I am I can barely carry a nail clipper w/o falling over from the extra weight.

MOZAMBIQUE Drill - Markwell/CDC - Wasn't that an AK equipped badguy who caught two in chest from a 9mm BHP ( in frag vest or mag pouch), the defender  observed from high ready over sights, and then placed one in CNS? I cain't remember

(In)Sain - Don't you just hate it when that happens (extreme qweek draw  w/o any indicators).

CCCCCCOLD CITY, BY-GAWD, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 20:49:41 (ZULU)


I'd absolutely LOVE to go and git the pistol edjumacation you recommended.  Only one small  Hmmmmm, maybe I can wash their dishes of somefin' ;)))))



RichS <>
MD, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:06:15 (ZULU)

 How realistic is it to assume a knife attack will present itself openly from 20 feet? So why train that way? Guy at work got cut across the gut and was still trying to figure how he ended up holding his intestines in his hands after the cutter had already put the knife away. Seems to me one has to be aware enough of who enters his space in certain circumstances to prevail in something like a knife attack, gunslinger or not. So the mindset is critical. Seems like comparing LE tactics to concealed carry civilian tactics disallows the difference between the two.Would not the cop face a greater threat of untelegraphed attack than the concealed carry civilian?....."I saw his gun and knew what I had to do to gain the upper hand"....Civilians aint gotta worry about dropping their piece while rappeling either;))....While refined tactics are desired in both cases, I would think they vary with the different situations encountered by LE and civilians......Threat assesment trumps speed for the civilian....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:12:41 (ZULU)


Knife Fighting: GySgt Claude Ricketts use to tell us that you needed to be "prepared to get a five inch cut to give a ten inch one". Anyone who pooh-pooh's knives, in close, is out of their mind.

Me? I'm a 12 GA point blank range, of course.

Carried a Ka-Bar my whole career. Never found it lacking.

Day off...gonna spend time with "she who must be obeyed"...;-)

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:22:23 (ZULU)

CDC; I have no problem with your instructions to the shooter. If I understand the last one. "It takes about a year/" If that means it takes about a year to get through all that and get your good habits established I would concur completely. There's no reason not to use a 1911 in a learning enviorment where that's all they teach. I'd hate to show up with something else and complicate their job.

I didn't do that because all these guys weren't around writing books in 1948 when I started shooting pistols. There was some Circus Performers like Ed McGivern, Elmer Keith, Charles Askins and some other "clowns" (I wish Jordan could hear you call his stuff circus performance). BUt they didn't have schools. That Jordan guy was probably around too. But I think he was out riding the Rio Grande about then.

I don't guess I know what a speed rock is for sure. You guys do read a lot.  All I know is I draw the same way everytime and pick up the second hand when the range or difficulty calls for it. IF you want to follow the shooting games out there it's best to study the shooters that are winning.

Dan; that was the California indicident I was describing.

I don't shoot pistols from habit or at least I like to think that I don't. But the advice about not handling the piece before you get to Gunsite will save you some embarrasment. Cause you'll do something they don't approve of and they'll tell you about it. I'd probably drive em crazy. Already have for that matter.

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:29:36 (ZULU)

Mark wrote,

"Civilians aint gotta worry about dropping their piece while rappeling either"

That all depends on the civilian. ;-)  Andy's request on his tenth birthday was for 120' of Goldline and some better 'biners.  He got 'em.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:35:54 (ZULU)

Rod Hansen; you get a special thanks for your kind words. And all the rest who support all of us here making fools of ourselves at times with things we hold to be truths. Sometimes events off screen affect what goes on here and my apology for that. But sometimes it just gets heavy and old men may think about giving up. Older I get the harder it is to have the will to fight. Guess that's why they don't let old Geezers in the forces.

PeteR; you may need a prop to keep me going. Just prop me up by bunker but let me watch OK?

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:38:18 (ZULU)

PeteR:  I've heard the "Mozambique" story but just can't remember it.

Bill:  Basic students show up with a variety of handguns.  Glocks are among them.  Advanced students usually show up with 1911s.  There are a few Sigs, S&W Revolvers and such.  I haven't got a large enough sample to know, but I didn't see any Glocks at all.

You wrote; "Cause you'll do something they don't approve of and they'll tell you about it."

Absolutely right.  They have the manipulation drill all worked out and IT WORKS.  They want to burn it into the student's brain so the student will use it automatically, under all conditions.  That frees the student to think about his situation rather than gun manipulation.  As Mike said, under stress a person will do what they are used to doing.  In "No Second Place Winner", Bill Jordan writes of a man who finished a gunfight only to find his shirt pocket full of brass.  He was a reloader and he reverted to habit.  Bad habit is the enemy.  It seems like the guys who say "I've been doing this for 40 years" have to be told 10,000 GODDAMNED TIMES TO GET THEIR GODDAMNED FINGER OFF THE GODDAMNED TRIGGER.  

"Speed Rock" is one of the names for the technique Bill Jordan, Rex Applegate and the guys you mention all use(d).

Use what you want.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 21:54:13 (ZULU)

My brother is a northern California bay area cop.  He graduated from the academy and was issued a Smith and Wesson .40, then a Glock .40 when the department changed over.  We talked, and because he had the option of carrying a .45 Sig 220 I gave him mine.  As part of his own continuing education he took a class from Bennie Coolie.

One night answering a domestic shortly before end of shift the complainant and his teenage daughter jumped on my brother's Field Training Officer's back, trying to take his gun.  My brother tried calling for backup, but his radio's battery was dead.  He took a frying pan to the side of the head from the complainant's drunk wife (object of the disturbance call), fell in soapy water on the kitchen floor from her trying to take his gun, and lost his glasses.  She then reached into the sink for a very large knife and started to attack.  Bang, 230-grain Hydra-Shok, de-cock, scan.  One shot, one-kill, knife-fight over.  Internal Affairs, seeing his training certificate and the Program of Instruction bloc for response to the 7-yard knife-fight cleared him as a good shoot.  True story.


Excellent $12.95 investment is "With Winning in Mind -- The Mental Management System" by Olympic and two-time World Champion Lanny Bassham.  "From Seven Strategies of the Mentally Tough":

Number Three:  "Find out what the best people in your sport or business are doing, and duplicate what they do.

"Take a good look at what the best people in sport do in training, determine how they look, figure out how they think.  Then you train, think, and look just like them.

If your way of performing is unique -- no one else in the world performs like you -- and you're world champion, that's called innovative.  But if you look different from everyone else in the world and you're not the world champion, that's called naive.  Being different can be innovative or devastating, depending on whther or not you win.

A safer, saner approach is to match the existing standards in the sport by duplicating what the best shooters do.  Then, you can increase the standard.

Find out what the top people in the world are thinking, planning, and testing.  I guarantee you the top one percent in the world are not thinking like the other 99 percent.

If you think and train like most people, you'll perform like most people.  If that's OK with you, that's fine.  If you don't mind being in the middle of the pack, that's OK.  But if you want to break out and win and succeed, you are going to think differently than the mainstream does.

How do you find out what the champions are doing?  Ask them.  Most people don't because they're afraid of bothering them  People wonder if the good performers will talk to them.  Well, the good shooters darn well won't talk to you if you don't ask them.  You've got to go out of your way to meet the champions.  The national chmpionships are a great place to meet the champions.  But sometimes you have to be willing to go to the places where these people train.

It is easier than you think to learn how a champion prepares.  If you really want to know something, take a champion to dinner.  Buy a five dollar hamburger and see if you can get a million dollars worth of information out of that.  Most national champions I know are very willing to share their knowledge with other people.

Number Four:  Train Hard, Compete Easy

The mentally tough work hard in training, much harder than their competition.  Training five or more hours a day five days a week is not uncommon among Olympians.  They find more efficient ways to train.  They focus on maximizing their equipment advantage, and if there are any technical advances out there, they find them.

It might surprise you that I designed the stock on the rifle I used to win the Olympics.  I designed about 50 bad stocks before I made a good one.  I can't tell how many pieces of wood I bought.  I was looking for an edge, and I knew the stock I built, which I won the World Championships with in 1974, would give me an edge in 1976.

I took it to Dieter Anschutz, owner of the famous Anschutz company, and showed him some plans for my stock.  Dieter is one of the great men of shooting and a great friend of mine, but he told me, "Lanny, Lanny, Lanny.  You are the master shooter.  I am the master gun-builder.  I won't tell you how to shoot, and you don't tell me how to make guns."  That was the end of that discussion.

So, I went to Walther, his major competitor.  The Walther had a good trigger and an accurate barreled action, but it also had a pretty poorly designed stock for my style of shooting.  I took leave from the Army, bought a plane ticket, and went in to see Mr. Peter Hoffman of Karl Walther GmBh.

At that time I was a silver medalist, so I got their attention.

Engineers in white coats came in, and I proudly showed them my plans for the stock.  I asked them, "Do you think you can make this?"  They took some measurements, and then they left.  Hoffman told me to go back to my hotel, but that we would have dinner that night, and for me to plan to come back the next day.  I asked him, "Do you think they can make that design?" He said he wasn't sure, but we would check tomorrow.

The next day, I returned to the factory, and waiting for me were two complete rifles.  Totally finished.  They had stayed up all night long making them.  The rifles were exact replicas of my plans.  I went home with those two rifles, and I used them in 1976 to win the gold medal and in 1978 to win the World Championships.  It gave me an edge.  Dieter Anschutz has never really gotten over turning me down.  That decision surely cost him some sales to Walther.

You don't have to be a stock designer or anything like that to get an edge.  But you need to find an edge.  The edge I found was not so much the stock design, but the attitude I was willing to go the extra mile.  I was willing to do things my competition wasn't willing to do.  Outwork your competition.  Be more effective in your profession or sport.  Go the extra mile.

Then, when you get in a match, try hard enough to shoot well, but not one percent more.  More medals are lost by good shooters trying too hard in a competition than by any other factor.

Nine out of ten of the people that come to me and take the Mental Management Seminars have the common problem of trying too hard in competition.  We know where this attitutde comes from.  We're taught all our lives that the harder we try, the better we'll do in competition.  You can try too hard and have your score go down.

There's a level of effort expended which gives you the best performance; it is similar to the amount of effort you put out when you have a really good practice day.  It's easy to shoot when you're shooting well.  Don't over-try in competition.  Try just the right amount."

An excellent investment and a very quick read.

OK, Marc, I've fired de-linked M80 7.62mm Ball out of an M24 at 55-gallon drums to 1,000 measured METERs, at Yuma, Arizona, the Whig Mountain Complex at Dugway Proving Grounds, Utah (with high oblique down angle), and in Western Australia.  So what?  I'd still rather have had a flat shooting, mild-recoiling rifle that bucks wind better.

Sinister Dave <>
Las Vegas, Nevada, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:01:04 (ZULU)

I thought I would interject a little humor into this pistol thing, I Have a Ruger P89, there I said it! I OWN A RUGER!  The poor thing has been used and abused but has never failed, jamed, misfired, or let me down in any way.  I had a Sig, but sold it, didn't like the way it fit my hand.  I'm not into the quick draw thing but for off hand practice I take the old Ruger out and shoot jackrabits with it.  Great practice on moving targets that start at random locations, never run in a straight line and make the most God awful noise if you hit them in the ass with a 124gr hollowpoint.

Ran out of time while visiting the inlaws, no pig hunting for a few more months, but I still have some chops in the freezer from last time.


Robert H <>
NE , Ca, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:01:57 (ZULU)

Mo' Mozambique...

Contrary to the common rumor, it didn't develop because of one BG with an AK (or flak vest)... the local native militia were very much like those "technicals" in Samolia.  They chewed some root or leaf that had a narcotic in it.  They were very hard to drop because of the lack of pain, and deadened nerve response.  So if you went into a village, and took one shot at the BG, you could BET on one or more coming back to you, even if you had a solid hit.  The Mozambique technique was developed to rattle and confuse the BG for just a few seconds, so you could stop him for sure.

However... it is NOT the recomended approach when facing several BGs here state side, cuz you will loose time on the first BG, and the others may run... but they may shoot you while your messing with the first guy, doing the three shot dance.


With knife fights at 21 feet... if you come up against one of those street Bozos that pull their knife and do the "I'm gonna cut you, mothafucka", then you got it made, cuz he is just street trash, and you can drop him while he's running his mouth... but if he knows anything about knife fighting, you won't see the knife 21 feet away... you'll see it just before it cuts you.

And that's a very badd thing (says Martha Stewart)!!


On learning gun fightin' (IPSC style!!)

A young gun fighter arrives at the pearly gates, and meets Saint PeteR, and Saint PeteR holds him up for a minute...

"Young man - you have died and I must judge you to see if you are worthy of entrance. But I see from my book that you have lived a sinful life and have never done any good deed to help anyone else!!

Have you done anything to help another person, that might aid your case?"

The young man replies: "Saint Peter - Wait - this might be it.  I was driving down the road after finishing Fatal Force VI at ThunderGun Farm. I saw a young lady whose car had stalled on the road. She was surrounded by a vile gang of evil bikers.

They were taunting her and pawing at her. I screeched to a stop.  I approached using a dominant Weaver stance and command - no, I yelled... "You dirty, slime sucking bunch of faggots... Don't move... get away from her! Don't make me take action! You'll be very sorry!"

At the same time, I started to clear my Chip McKimber "Custom" 1911 M3000 with Tabasco Red Dot sights and stocked with Black Avenger super-comp grips, and loaded with 300gr Super Frangible JWSCHPS's "steel kyllers" from my Malt Gallop Lightning Wear comp VIII Holster..."

St. Peter interrupted: "I'm sorry, but there's no record of this good deed in my book... When did this happen?"

"About three minutes ago!"


'yote Bate...

I think your scenerio (hands up, no buzzer) is the most practical way of measuring... it replicates the surrender.  You are surrendering, and YOU decide when to move, and the reaction time penalty falls on the BG, and gives you at least .5 sec advantage... maybe more if he's a schmuck.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:05:02 (ZULU)

BROGERS  You have mail (Wyoming)

Gary Kaney <>
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:07:12 (ZULU)


"How realistic is it to assume a knife attack will present itself openly from 20 feet? So why train that way?"  Well said. It is but one of many facets to train. Varied distances; up close & personal to further back and/or with obstacles in between.

"Seems to me one has to be aware enough of who enters his space in certain circumstances to prevail in something like a knife attack, gunslinger or not. So the mindset is critical."  Right on my man.  Always, always be aware. Not paranoid,  just aware.

"While refined tactics are desired in both cases, I would think they vary with the different situations encountered by LE and civilians...... Threat assesment trumps speed for the civilian...."  Key point.  Many many variables. Reaction is a very subjective thing. Even with the fancy lazer CD FATS training, the training environment is limited. When the new recruits (LE) start asking during training, "What do you carry off duty?", I tellem most often the most important thing to carry is the survival mindset. Stay alive & be the best damned witness the responding officers ever deal with. Especially if you are with family. Priorities.

Kevin, "That all depends on the civilian."  Yessiree.  That all depends on the individual LE too!!  btw,  how ya been.  Haven't talked since Gaithersburg last Jan. Keep up the good work with that boy.


Deputy Doug <>
K town, WI, US of A - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:13:15 (ZULU)



Howabout "I own, and shoot a Glock 23?"  and a SIG P-229.........

ZZZZZZZZZap !  sudden silence in the house?

There the cats outta the bag, and even Lito's gonna have a hard time shooting that one. :-)  But I still have a curmudgeonly hankering for my IRON SIGHTED Kimber.

Sinister- Most excellant post AND ADVICE, and a great book to read for all.

 Don't wanna get cut, or shot so I train for the worst and ALWAYS hope for the best.

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:28:08 (ZULU)


 Will I see you in Gaithersburg this year?  I'm all ready to go.  There should be some good information shared this year.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 22:30:12 (ZULU)


Did you get my mail?

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 23:37:48 (ZULU)

Bad fight:

Working off duty, plain clothes at Dillards. 275 lb. black lady stole a Calvin Klein sweater and by God I was going to get it back for truth, justice and the American way.

Not ON MY BEAT YOU DON'T ... he hee.

She headed out for the parking lot.

Grabbed her shirt from behind on the run like an NFL receiver headed for the end zone. She never slowed down. Never looked back (Ya'll got a mental picture ?)

Water skied behind her big ass in my Rockports and slacks for a good twenty five yards ... all the way to her car. She got to the car, turned and swung.

Whissssshhhhhhh. HA ! Ducked it. Bitch ! IT'S ON NOW um hum.

Came up with my portable by the antennae and clocked her big ass in the side of the head. Didn't faze her. Damn.

She was trying to get her keys in the door and that boys . . . THAT is when I got out my handy can of cayanjalapenopepper oleosporumcapsicum spray. Hold my beer, watch this shit.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (spraying)! HA ! Double HA ! Take that. Damn, wind changed. We both got some. Got one cuff on her and was trying to drag her to the store and call for help cause I couldn't see shit.

Yanking on the damn cuff. Damn, dead weight. Like dragging a cow. She wouldn't budge but my feet would come a foot off the ground. Finally drug her fat ass to the sidewalk and a unit showed up. We were both worn plum out.

Rubbing my damn eyes, her screaming law suit, my boys pissing their pants laughing trying to get the cuff off. What a sight.

Whew. Close one. WTF ? This shit never happens on NYPD Blue.

Later discovered that a year before, she drug a cop down the street after he reached in to turn off the car and she rolled his arm up in the window. Same kinda deal. Constable had to draw and donk her in the temple with his Sig weak handed to get her to stop.

I hate Calvin Klein.  

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:06:08 (ZULU)

Brian,  you are too much  :)  need a coke alert with a story like that !!

That fancipants spray stuff works good on mad bulls too. Juss makes it harder for the farmer to roundem up!!

Kevin, Yeah, I might make it to Gaitherburg.  Gonna try like heck to get my team commander there so's he can finally get an idea of what we do & how to use us right.


Deputy Doug <>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:15:17 (ZULU)

PeterL- When ole John Moses designed it, the Browning MG had a big water jacket around the barrel (1917) and included a radiator and pump in some models. Don't got no steenking overheated barrels.  Quick change on that barrel system was measured with a sundial.  Only time I worked on one was to fix a leak on a friends Westinghouse made collector piece.  Would like to have that one for a living room decoration.

Browning didn't get to air cooled ground guns till the 1919A4 (?) model.  At work, reference books in vault at home.  My father did design work on bolt buffers on the M2, Oerlikon 30 & 40 mm and similar stuff.  Got some neat manuals and sales samples.  No they're not for sale!!!!!!!!!!

WR Moore <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:44:52 (ZULU)

Did you notice how Dave did that without calling anybody a dumb-ass?

That's why they made him a Light Colonel and give him the plum commands.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:50:46 (ZULU)

I am a Police Officer in a large Municipality in Canada and have been for 17 years. In 1993 all of the departments in my Province transitioned from revolvers to one of four pistols. The choices were the usual suspects, Berretta, Sig, S&W and Glock; all in DA and all in .40 cal. At the time there was a very strong push for 9mm. There was an equally strong effort to adopt a .45 cal weapon as well. A compromise was met and we ended up in the middle. Initially we were using ball ammunition that proved ineffective. However we managed to lobby for hollow point rounds and since then all has been well in the world of Police ballistics. You rarely read of suspects surviving Police shootings any more, it used to be a forgone conclusion with the old .38's.

My department adopted the Glock with little or no competition due to it's long standing with or SWAT people. I was a little dubious of this at first and my heart still wished for something with a juice-can bullet and made of steel, however, I kept an open mind. Anything would be better than my 1953 vintage S&W .38 with truncated cone target ammunition. It was not long before I became a strong believer, but I still wondered if there was something better out there.

I soon found I had the opportunity to answer this question when I was seconded to our Police College as a firearms instructor. I was required to become proficient in all four of the weapons that the students might someday carry. To accomplish this I had a range to myself and a key to the ammunition locker. I fired sufficient rounds through each weapon to become intimate with it. I spent three years teaching there and had a few observations.

Firstly, a weapon should be fit to the man, not the other way around. I had many a recruit who had difficulty holding the weapon issued to them. The Berretta was particularly bad. In fact I only had one recruit who was the correct size for this weapon. He was seven foot six and could pick up a basketball with two fingers. It was a hopeless task to try and get some of our smaller stature Officers to shoot well with the Berretta. A single action version would have only been slightly better, it was the width of the grip that caused the problem. The Sig and Smith had similar issues. I never found a person too large or too small to fire the Glock well.

Secondly, a weapon should be reliable. We had a store of weapons that were used by the recruits since they are not issued a weapon until they graduate. These handguns saw extreme use, firing in excess of one thousand rounds per recruit per course. This could amount to twenty thousand every three months. We wore them out with great abandon. With this type of use you can't help but notice trends. The Sig's trigger and recoil springs would break with annoying regularity. The Smith's rear sight would pop off which meant the hammer safety spring would launch. The Smith also had a weak magazine safety. When the fully loaded magazine was slammed home, as in a high stress event, the safety would break. Either of these things stopped the weapon from functioning. They were all replaced on a yearly basis, except the Glock's. They could stand in excess of one hundred and fifty thousand rounds with no sign of distress.

The Berretta was a story unto itself. On a daily basis we would lose a recoil lug. We would regularly have blown chambers (invariably blamed on bad ammunition, which surprisingly never happened to any of the others). Trigger springs broke often and we lost quite a few takedown lever studs and springs. This little beauty would fly out, never to be found, and on the next round fired, the takedown lever would fall down and the entire top-side would be launched down range. Imagine trying to build confidence in a new shooter when the top half of their weapon is sticking out of the ground like a grave marker? Another major weakness were the magazines. The spring is under such great compression and the butt plate is held on with a very weak detent and when combined it would routinely launch it's contents onto the ground. Much like the rookie holding the now defunct weapon did with his lunch during a high stress exercise.

I attended an MP5 instructor's course and was the only Glock amongst Smith's and Beretta's. One of the Berretta users regularly oiled his weapon using no less than three different types of lube for various areas. He had a stoppage on every live fire exercise and was getting frustrated when he asked the instructor why I never seemed to have to clear my weapon when all of the others were getting so much practice at it. The instructor answered in his mid western accent "Because, he has a Glock son."

Thirdly a weapon must be easily serviced in the field. All of these weapons, except of course the Glock, have far too many pieces to be field worthy. Have you ever tried to fit a Smith ejector rod assembly with cold hands? The Berretta is actually quite easy to strip, maybe too easy. In recent years the slide has been removed from Officer's handguns by suspects who have trained in this little trick. It does work and no you won't get a shot off before he has your slide. Another of the many annoyances of the Berretta are it's sharp edges. We kept a box of bandages handy for the unfortunates who were routinely bitten.

The only thing that Berretta has is the sales people. They swept down on our departments like a tide of locusts. They brought trinkets and expense accounts and hit the poor unsuspecting armorers hard. Many appear to have been bitten by the bug. Ten years later, many are regretting it. Their fancy high priced pistols are now in need of replacement.

The above issues are enough to negate the Berretta as a suitable side arm. The fact that the military are forced to use ball ammo is another, 9mm ball just doesn't work. The .45 is the obvious choice since it has a long-standing record. I don't, however, believe that the Colt platform is the way to go anymore. I may sound like a billboard for the Glock but I come by it honestly. The Glock 20 is cheaper, more reliable, easier to handle and tote, has more capacity and is infinitely more field serviceable than any other sidearm. I guess the main issue is to do away with the M9 altogether and worry about it's replacement later. I feel for the soldier in battle, I wouldn't have any confidence in an M9.

Sorry for the length of my letter, but I feel strongly about this issue. These charlatans have been foisting this poorly designed and overly complex pistol on us for years and it is costing lives. It's time for this to stop. When is the grunt going to be given the choice of which device he will defend himself and his country with? I, personally, would like to know who benefited from the US Army contract for the M9. I wonder if they can sleep at night?

art <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 00:59:04 (ZULU)

Guys , the pistol comparison is part of a letter that i posted here seein' as pistols are a topic but i am not the author.

art <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:04:54 (ZULU)

Damn Hawgs, the last 5 or 6 days of threads on the roster have given me a headache. Somebody needs to summarize!

Eyes crossed, Bolster out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:15:23 (ZULU)

Here goes, nothing personnal..

 For most of us a handgun is a reactive instrument..If a threat is obvious it {or something better} should be in our hands..But generally, the handgun is brought into play due to some external stimulus; ie. our primary goes down, we perceive an immediate threat, are charged by a knife wielder, etc..  The fact [not disputed] that one can draw and fire a self innitiated shot with a hit on the range in .4, .1, or 10 seconds does not neccesarily prove much of anything except that it  can be done in whatever time. The type of weapon used means nothing.  IMHO, and it would be hard to prove, the true test is what can be done, on demand, as we go about our daily business..Could you draw{or acquire}your handgun and deal with a problem now, in front of your computer??  Could you do it in 1,2,3,4,20 seconds and deal??  Or, is the sucker locked in the gun safe??  LE folks , in my limited experience, on the range with duty gear and retention straps in place, have a hard time breaking the 1.5 sec. mark for drawing and firing one good shot at 5-7 yds.  Most citizens[I hate the civilian term} have a tough time breaking 2 from concealment.  This is with the knowledge of the impending start signal.  Factor in the mental aspects of preceive the threat, decide what to do, and then react, the  average practical[what a great word] gun carrier is not likely to respond to a sudden threat in anything close to record time.

  Awareness, mindset, training, a knowledge of tactics, and practice are the keys to surviving armed encounters, IMO..  A self innitiated .4 on the range, for the average armed citizen or Law enforcement officer, doesn't mean much.  What can be done in reaction to a startle type stimulus or under condition white/yellow will ultimately tell the tail..CDCs mention of the gunfight survivors from a well known school speaks volumes, as these folks were generally not "gun People". They went to school to learn skills for survival and many have gotten their monies worth.  

End of observations from the Alleghenies

outa here and ducking!!!!!!


Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:22:26 (ZULU)

Brian(IN)Sain and 'Lito:

    ROTFLMAO!  Ha!

    Roster Hawgs:   The 6.5X55 has a slightly larger diameter,(.476) so does a standard (.473) bolt face have to be opened up slightly on the push feed style bolts, or is there enough tolerance?  Also, if the bolt face DOES have to be machined, does that mean it can no longer be used for the standard (.473) bolt face size of cartridge ever again? Inquiring minds want to know....and thanks.

    BRogers:  Glad to see you're back.  I would've missed your dialogue.

Jerry S. <>
Red River Snow, Ice, Cold Country, MN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 01:36:16 (ZULU)

Jerry S.- you're only talking 0.003" difference, should work without mods as is within generally acceptable tolerances.  Old German saying, "Measure 10,000 times, cut once."

Art-interesting post, all the S&W ejector/magazine safe failures I've seen were failsafe events that were detected in cleaning.  I'll assume the ejector rod comment dealt with revolvers.

Actually, good point noted here but not brought out.  When we did our service pistol trials in 1990/91 I called a slew of police deparments that had adopted semi auto pistols about their preventive maintenance programs.  NOBODY HAD ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Seemed real strange to me, they do X thousand mile maintenance on patrol vehicles and wait for the firearms to break.  Since I know competition shooters who put many times 20K rounds per year through their pieces without the destruction mentioned, the value of PM is obvious.

Just as a point of interest, in those trials the Glock 19 we received for test wouldn't run a magazine of hardball without at least one malfunction.  Based on experience, we called Glock for different magazines and were told that Glocks never fail, we were too stupid to operate them properly.  Needless to say, we didn't buy Glocks.  The LE sales manager got replaced a couple of months later.

There's a teletype report that a nuke site had a Glock fail today, frame rails allegedly broken.

WR Moore <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 02:40:49 (ZULU)


Don't duck.   Walk proud    True post

The Ol Gunny said If i want a 7 I would have told you to shoot me a 7 Now damm it shoot me a 10

Semper Fi

Bomac <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 02:43:23 (ZULU)

Markwell:  One of these days we're going to have to take turns buying each other beers and trading dirty jokes.  You've got a lot of sense.

All:  I posted some stuff I don't agree with.  ie:  Follow orders blindly for a year then engage brain.  What I meant was that some very smart people have studied the subject of fighting with handguns.  Their doctrine is available.  Before someone attempts to reinvent the Space Shuttle in the basement it pays to carefully study what has gone before.  And not just marksmanship.  Gun manipulation and mindset are equally important.  Once manipulation is made automatic, you can catch the tips on the stance, grip, sight picture, etc and benefit from them.  That doesn't take a year.

There's a point to be made about asking for tips from the better shooters:  Shooters are a little clannish.  When you go to a new range or a new meet, the guys there want to talk to the guys they know.  

If you shoot good then behave like a "good ol' boy", they get friendly.  Just trade tips then listen carefully.  Tell them everything you know and they'll tell you everything they know.  It's just like this place.

Pablo:  Do you write that stuff?  That's deadly accurate and very funny but may not be quite fair to Thunder Ranch.  The story I get is that Clint Smith is a serious person.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 04:11:22 (ZULU)

No takers on my solid belly versus metal belly question? C'mon here, there has to be SOMEONE that knows why everyone goes with BDL types instead of ADL types for tac rifles! I find it hard to believe, but is it nothing more than dirt can get around a closed bolt, into the magazine, and cause problems, therefore it's easier to dump the mag and clean from the bottom rather than out the top? Clamping tension between those huge base metals and the action? Bueller? Bueller?

And you're skipping out on me too Mr. Bolt! C'mon, what you use for gunky old grease on aluminum?

It appears that Markwell has proven that the myths about poor education in the Alleghenies is just that. Right on. Just right on.

Art, with you too. The 92F is a chunk, hated it. Got extremely similar info from one of our local boys that was given the S&W Sigma at accademy. Said that they fall apart, fail, and generally approximate junk. He's a Glock fan though, so take it for what it's worth.

Brian, there you go again. You got the moral of the story wrong. It's not Calvin Klein you should hate, it's 275 pound women! You keep some of that bioshield, or whatever the name is, on hand now? HA! I'm just thanking my lucky stars that it's not THOSE chicks that dig us LOL

PeteR, you shoot Sigs too? That was one of the very few that I could put my name on for reliability out of the box. Too bad it didn't fit my hand por caca. Hands on jelly doughnut you die. Still chuckling. Can't you just YELL bang, or you gotta use bad language?

Mozambique, hey CDC, see if this jogs your memory. I think what I recall went something along the lines of those technicals there starting to wear body armor. A proper solution to the problem at hand was given, but due to the body armor, it didn't work. Afterwords, the solution to body armor was the Mozambique. Rattling and confusion was what I was told, along with the "make sure everyone gets served once before anyone goes back for seconds". Now, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. By the way, I agree completely with your statements of training. Too many cooks spoil the stew, and muscle memory rules.

Dave, CDC is right. There's a reason you're too cool. Now, are you in Vegas for real? Drop me a line, there may be cause for celebration.

Andy's Dad, to you Sir, I say houah. That's the way to raise a boy! You're a credit to us all.

Mike, you'll be happy to know that 9 is going the way of the dodo. Kind of. It'll take some time, but it's turning into a 45. I've always had more faith in the 45 ACP, that's not the issue. Although you know I'll put up a good arguement for the Souper 9 LOL. If I could buy 40's for what I can buy 9's for, I'd switch tomorrow, not that I feel I have to have it, but hey, bigger is always better, right? OK, I'm cheap. I admit it. But I do spend my money WISELY, and I still plug your slings and Bruces tactical slide rule as great innovations.

Bill, you wore out two Pythons? I have no doubt. Why Colt ever billed those as 357's is beyond me. In my book, they're every bit the 357 that the Smith K frames are. They'll take a serious long pounding with 38's forever. Get 357's around them, they go to pieces quick. But you knew that LOL.

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 04:46:58 (ZULU)

Sane, you are one funny MF!  Fat women are evil!  One lactated on my buddy in Haiti.  She got half a can of 12% OC and didn't seem so eager after that.  Hit her with a radio?  Don't you guys have ASP's or even better, the autolock Monadnocks?  Hell, a blackjack does the deed better than a Motorola.  I picked up a 26" Monadnock when I thought I was going to do some JTF-6 stuff down your way.  Figured that a 6'2" ugly bastich like me swinging that sucker would get the illegal's attention PDQ.  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 05:24:36 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave: Exellent post on Lanny Bassham and competetive shooting.

"Find out what the best people in your sport or business are doing, and duplicate what they do."

"Training five or more hours a day five days a week is not uncommon among Olympians.  They find more efficient ways to train.  They focus on maximizing their equipment advantage, and if there are any technical advances out there, they find them."

80%+ of the top international 300m shooters use 6mm Norma BR.

Nobody shoots with Rem 700 actions.



TorF <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 07:28:39 (ZULU)


Thunder Ranch???  What Thunder Ranch???  Real gun fighters don't train at no steeenkin' Thunder Ranch!

It was "ThunderGun Farm", the training site for real pros... Thunder Ranch is for sissies ;))


Speakin' of "Queeks Draw"... do any of you ol' timers remember back in the 70's, the Federal Marshal that had a worlds record draw with an empty chamber 1911?

He would draw a 1911 (empty chamber) up a few inches, then he could catch the edge of the slide on a leather lip in the holster, and he would push the pistol back DOWN into the holster, thereby racking the slide and loading a round, then he would draw the pistol out of the holster (slide spring helping to push it out) and shoot... all in "well under" a second.

He was all over TV in those days, and on Ed Sullivan too.  He's in the book of records.


It's 4 in the morning, and 14 degrees out, why am I on the Roster???????



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 08:15:47 (ZULU)


Excellent summary. I was thinking about the computer issue Monday morning while reading the roster. Most good CCW classes teach acquisition from many different scenarios and positions. Add up the total time you spend in your car everyday. Can you defend yourself and get your family out without shooting yourself in the leg? (Not you personally) Most folks have never fired a pistol inside a car, it's REAL loud. If you have to shoot thru the windshield, do you aim high or low? You made many good points, thanks. My family thinks I'm crazy but if we're ever accosted in the car, they know the drill. Same with a housefire, have a plan and practice.


PJ, 8, received his first descender and harness this fall when he got his first treehouse. He didn't want the stinkin ladder, said it was to easy for the girls to get up to the fort. He now fast ropes the 15' to the ground. He's gonna kill me or worry me to death. I've been busy with an offer I received on Monday. I apologize about the shipping. Hopefully today, Next Day Air.


The bottom metal is for dumping all your ammo out in the dirt when you push the wrong button. Other than that, maybe you can belt feed one and nobody told us. :))) Thanks for your help by the way and glad your back, Jim. :)))


You are quite right about Mr. Smith, he doesn't suffer fools very well at all. A week of his time is worth way more than he charges.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 10:31:21 (ZULU)

Lito; you are thinking zactly what I'm trying to say. IF you initiate the action you're in control at least if you don't spend too long gettin it in action. IF you can work the other fella's reaction time against him, you usually could walk away.

Lots of good stuff.  

Yes Dave, thanks for not calling Dan a dumb ass! :) I would have forgiven you but would he? :)

ART; Too much truth around here and you'll need a flak jacket.

IF Mike and I had went to competetion he would surely have won the "clearing" contest. Hands down. I can remember it some from my 1911 days but it's faded mostly.

Sorry I woke up mean spirited again this morning. Maybe I'll get better after breakfast.

I can't help but notice those who boast long draw times are solid in their convictions that it doesn't matter. Let me get the first shot in if I can.

Told you I was mean on Wednesdays.

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 11:06:22 (ZULU)


Now there's a topic... which is more important, a first round hit or just bein' first? I know that you'll have a first round hit but I'm speakin, like Markwell, the average:)), gun totin' civvie.


Are you sure you didn't just want the sweater? :)))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 11:18:20 (ZULU)

Mr. Sinister,

Like you, I would prefer to have better ammunition than M80 Ball but if that is all that's available in the supply system, I would rather have a rifle capable of firing it than have a high-speed gun without any ammunition. An M24, even if chambered for sixfive something, is a very poor design for a club. Police, competitive shooters, hobbyists, etc. have the luxury of shooting anything they want (Department sanctioned of course) while Soldiers/Sailors/Marines are dependent on the supply system to get ammunition to them on time and in the required amounts wherever they might be deployed. I really like the increased danger space provided by a flat shooting cartridge and have nothing against the sixfive except it is not in the system.

I don't know of any military currently issuing a sixfive x anything, do you? From my observations, most of the European Armies are looking to the 300WM and 338 Lapua for increased range.

I know, now I've stirred up the sixfive crowd again and the sixfive is better than the 300WM and 338 L. because...

Personally, I get more enjoyment out of shooting a 45-70 Remington Rolling Block with lead bullets and BP than anything else these days. Anyone else shooting BPCR?


Marc Palmer <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 11:59:06 (ZULU)


Being in LE I too have worked waaayy to many hours OT for the lovely Dillards Company.  Didn't you get all that "Sensitivity" training on how to handle unhappy customers?

I swear, you SWAT guys are all just jack-booted thugs, even when you are off duty!!!

Rich Johnson <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:22:45 (ZULU)

John; that a good point sure nuff. With all this talk about QD as a "tactic" (that ought to raise eyebrows), Hitting with the first round is bound to save a lot of time. But hitting first with the first round is infinitely better.

One of the reasons I switched to the infamous Glock is because I didn't want to walk around with a weapon that I knew I could beat my own deployment time with. It has been observed that the more advanced shooters you encounter the more prominent the 1911's. I believe that to be true. Whether or not that indicates the 1911 is better is debatable. Perhaps it's like a INdy 500 car. You have to be better trained to utilize the advantage. eg. The more advanced the better the competetion and the tighter you have to hold. Maybe that's a bad example.

Many people start with the 1911 if you can call it that after 100 years of modification and gadgetry to correct it's shortcoming. IF one must simply have a 1911 then perhaps one should consider the Glock as being the ultimate modification. Most modern pistols are exactly that. Some have double action features, better factory triggers, springs barrels etc., lighter frames etc. and yes even plastic parts but all are basically the 1911 system.

It's hard to overcome the affection for "some good ole American Army gun". With the same reasoning the AR 15/M16 should be scrapped in favor of the M1. On the other end is the M9. VS. 1911. If you make changes you have to make good ones. Usually lighter is better as long as it's controllable and not more breakable. There are lots of Alternatives today. Everyone should use what they want and use best but it's not good to just assume that because somebody's standard is one thing or another it's good and best for everyone. A SWAT operative probably does'nt have much use for ultra fast deployment until his MP 5 runs out of fuel. Most are pretty sure they are gonna need a handgun or something when they enter. On the other hand the traffic cop may not have advanced warning. Approaching with hand on the gun is a good idea if there's any doubt but you can get in trouble with public real quick  if you radiate too much force.

OK I'll quit.

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:23:10 (ZULU)


  In light of your experience teaching with different sidearms, you should appreciate this:

 A while back, when many departments were transitioning from wheelguns to autos, the chief instructor at the WV State Police academy, who shall remain nameless,conducted all of the firearms training for Basic classes with gun vault revolvers for 16 weeks irregardless of what weapon the officers would be issued upon graduation.  Basic classes consist of  local officers, deputies etc., not SP officers. These officers were only allowed to use their issue sidearms on the last day for qualification before graduation.  When asked why he did't  allow these recruits to use their issued weapons for the entire training cycle his response was "How can I do that? There's too many different types of guns being issued by all these departments. How am I supposed to know how they all work?" His official title was Chief fireams instructor!!!!! Go figure.

  Interesting also was the fact that this same gent was in charge of the SP Snipers..They shot a five round group at 100yds twice a year for training and qualification!

 Thankfully, things have progressed For the better since then..

 outa here

Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:28:28 (ZULU)


I enjoy these discussions about pistols, knives and training.  I learn something every time I visit the roster.  For what it’s worth here’s my take on the whole subject.

Whether you are knife fighting, pistol fighting or going hand to gland it’s all about the same thing, violence.  Technical and tactical proficiency is important but nothing is more important than mindset (willingness to be violent).  You must be able to “switch it on” without any warm-up.  You’ve got to have what it takes to go from condition white to condition black in one eye-blink.  I’ve had the opportunity to observe masters of this art inside a maximum security prison.  They can go from a calm conversation to an all out knife fight instantly.  These men have mastered this skill because their survival depends on it.

If you ever go into harms way your survival also depends on your ability to “spool-up to speed” instantly.  You can’t think about it.  You can’t wait to get mad.  You must know those things that should trigger your all-out, no holds barred, kill now response.  The prize is survival and it won’t always go to the fastest draw or the most accurate shot.  The prize most often goes to the most violent and determined individuals.

This isn’t something you can develop through an intellectual understanding of a need.  This comes from the inner brain, that most primal part of us, that part that is pretty scary even in the daylight.  The really hard part is switching it off.  The adrenal bath that takes place is otherworldly and can be intoxicating.

It is this component of combat that it too often overlooked in favor of arguments about technology and tactics.  It must never be ignored because without it the best armed and trained individual is dead before the buzzer goes of.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:31:21 (ZULU)

'yote Bate...

>"Told you I was mean on Wednesdays."<

And the other six days??




Andy's Dad...

>"... but nothing is more important than mindset (willingness to be violent)."<

What you said.  Many practice the tricks, but don't have the "will to kill" (I made a pun ;).

I used to teach that the moment to decide to shoot the BG should be made at home, when you strapped on your pistol (or whatever).  You need to decide what the limits of danger are (point of no return), and set your mind to react at that point... when the time comes, you don't have to think "Am I in enough danger, should I shoot someone that has threatened me and drawn a gun?".

At that point, your reactions need to be automatic, cuz under lethal stress, your IQ drops to between 25 and 50 (if you're lucky), and you need to focus EVERYTHING in defending yourself.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:48:42 (ZULU)

....aahhhh Pistols.....

I haven't heard any mention of the H&K's in this line of pistolizing thoughts?????

I have a wonderful P9S in .45ACP that has traveled with me since the ' has always worked flawlessly and will digest anything I put in it......

Rugers....don't be ashamed, my wife carries a P85 and somewhere in the Suburban Urban Assault Vehicle is a P90DC that has gained my respect also......

Here at the office....a Glock 19 is within easy reach...what can I say, it was a good deal at the time !!!!

A good pistol is one that I can control, is reasonably accurate and has been used enough to deem itself reliable....if'n it ain't none of these three, hell--give me a knife !!!!


JRMoore <>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:55:52 (ZULU)


>>> At that point, your reactions need to be automatic, cuz under lethal stress, your IQ drops to between 25 and 50 (if you're lucky), <<<

Man,, what if you start at 50,,, I could be in trouble ;))


Chris <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:20:39 (ZULU)

Kevin:  Right.  Without mindset it's all pointless.  The "Color Code" is supposed to have solved that for those who employ it.  For those who don't know the system is as follows:

Condition White:  Fat, dumb and happy.  Everybody loves me and the world is all sugar and sunshine.

Condition Yellow:  There's bad people around.  Now let's see if I can spot one.

Condition Orange:  That guy right there is dangerous.  I am prepared to defend myself from him.

Condition Red:  Party time.

I've never heard of condition black.

The story I heard is that it is relatively easy to jump one color.  It is very difficult to jump two colors.  Going from white to red can't be done.

All:  I move that we deep six this rotting carcass of a Glock v 1911 thread.  Will anyone second?

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:24:09 (ZULU)

>>> All:  I move that we deep six this rotting carcass of a Glock v 1911 thread.  Will anyone second <<<

I second, thrid, fourth and fifth it,,,,


Chris <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:27:16 (ZULU)

Well said, Kevin.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:28:36 (ZULU)


 I must have missed your original question on the BDL vs the ADL so I am winging it here. If you ask why tactical shooters use the BDL over the ADL I will tell you why "I" do. It has nothing to do with dirt.

 If you have ever been in a big hurry stuffing rounds into your action during a man on man shoot and you get them "Cocked" in there and they lock up its a nightmare with a ADL stock. I have had to take the stock off of the rifle to get the wedged rounds out of there.

 In fact last night I was loading rounds for my new 260 and had them a "Tad" long and got three stuck in the mag. and its the shits trying to get them out.

 I would think this is the main reason for the BDL over the ADLs in tactical shooting. My son and I both train to make a concious effort to push the round all the way to the rear of the mag when loading it. This is critical with rounds loaded to max length. At least this would be my humble opinion on one over the other.

Pat <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:44:36 (ZULU)

CDC wrote,

“Going from white to red can't be done.”

Attica, Auburn, Bedford Hills, Clinton, Coxsakie, Downstate, Easton, Elmira, Five Points, Great Medows, Greenhaven, Shawangunk, Sing Sing, Southport, Sulliavan, Upstate and Wende Correctional Facilities are full of men that can go from White to Red in one jump.

The interesting thing is they are getting let out daily.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 13:59:45 (ZULU)

CDC and company,

"Condition Black" has been described as lights out panic, complete breakdown of one's conscious being due to overwhelming feeling of terror, absolutely incapable of function.

Amen to what 'Lito said, " The moment... you strapped on your pistol..."


Deputy Doug <>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:24:37 (ZULU)

Kevin:  "Condition White:  Fat, dumb and happy.  Everybody loves me and the world is all sugar and sunshine."

It would surprise me if those convicts had that attitude.  It seems as if they would switch between a hot yellow and orange many times a day.  Under those conditions it would seem that they wouldn't even sleep in condition white.

I sure wouldn't.

Speaking of Condition Orange turning to Condition Red:  The 8th is going to be a big day for Sadaam.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:25:57 (ZULU)


So true, but those ayeholes LIVE in condition orange until next victim comes into field of fire. Lets start another program for them.


Deputy Doug <>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:27:43 (ZULU)

CDC & Doug:

That makes sense to me.

I guess the description would best be passive (orange) to violent(red) in an eye-blink.  I've seen it.  It's scary.  Guys like that are a threat of the first order.  They are without "ruth".


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 14:48:15 (ZULU)

KEVIN/ALL:  Mind Set. You guys are right about that stuff.

SINISTER:   Back in the 80s when I started shooting IHMSA, a WINNER kinda took me under his wing. Wasn't long before I was WINNING and the other WINNERS would ask me to go to matches with 'em. We shot (and WON) all over the Southwest. I was just a kid. Wasn't long before I was beating them. At that level, it came down to just whoevers "day" it was. I was shooting every single day, anywhere from 400 to 600 rounds a week (counting the small bore stuff) and reloading for four centerfires. In the big scheme of things, most cops don't get that type of shooting experience. Helped me out later.

Then I got into LE followed shortly thereafter by a new baby, straight nights and no weekends off for years. There went the match shooting ... thank God for muscle memory 'cause I just don't get to shoot like that anymore.

The people that taught me how to REALLY shoot were to a man: A school teacher, a machinist, a welder, a plant worker, a heavy equipment operator and a CPA.

SWAT/PISTOLS: Most guys like a shoulder fired weapon for entry work. Doesn't matter to me. I am at no disadvantage with a pistol for my "primary" room to room. I mean when you can stand on your hind feet and hit a ram at 200 meters, room to room is a no brainer (almost). I can do it well and I can do it fast. No brag, no big deal, I just have done it a bunch and it is just a fact.

Riflewise, all three of my guys can outshoot me from the prone. Standing on my hind feet however, I shine. Confidence thing I guess.

The ARs and MPs do have a certain effect when you point them with the lights and lasers. The BGs ain't used to that and quite literally shit themselves which pretty much takes the fight out of 'em (usually). We don't count on it though and we don't get complacent.

BILL:  They won't let us carry 1911s. Worried about Single Action ADs. Mostly uneducated, untrained folks in high positions that think they are very well educated and trained, calling the shots.

Us SWAT guys have city Glock 35s. I have to "think" to shoot it well. I have adapted but don't like them neccessarily. They point a little high for me. Long barrel is no big advantage for me room to room. Especially when one is used to shooting 10" and 14" TCs and XPs with 1 lb. or lighter triggers.

Buying the 35 wasn't my call but hey, I'll take it. I like the light rail on it a LOT though and ... like a Coonass and a crawfish, they function well in the mud.

However, a SIG 220 for me, is just like pointing my finger and picking one up is like saying hi to an old friend you haven't seen in a while. HK USPs bite (for me).

RICH:  Yeah, got the sensitivity training. Watched the films. It didn't take.

THUNDER RANCH:  Most cops can't afford the price tag but I like the place and I like Clint Smith.

KEN M:  We got ASP batons. I am a Detective though. We don't usually carry that stuff while in plain clothes. Hell, everybody knows we just play golf and drink coffee. Ask any patrolman.

But we look good ... and the chicks dig us.

Fat ones need love too. Even if it is "tough love".

Coulda used that sweater for a car cover. he he.

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:04:57 (ZULU)

CDC, I know you're familiar with condition black, but for the education of the audience, I'll pretend that I don't know you're proping me. It was introduced by a well known gun writer (note, not firearms instructor, active duty cop, or combat veteran) as a supposed enbetterment (that's a Dilbert management term for those of you who like that stuff) of the Cooper color code system. It's SUPPOSED to be the midst of battle, after you've determined that it's party time, and initiated dropping something stinky in the punchbowl. It was supposedly to reflect the tunnel vision, reversion to muscle memory, lack of fine motor skills, etc. As you note, it's not only redundant, it's silly. On the 1911 versus Glock, sure, I'll second. We all knew this thing would end in a draw when it started anyway. Someone (LOL) said something about Glock versus 1911 piefight #27 being in the archives. Well, let's end #28, and tell the newcomers to visit the archives.

Thanks Pat, I knew there HAD to be a reason. Clearing jams, that makes sense. Why Remington made their left bolt raceway the same size as a standard casehead never made much sense to me anyway. Gee. I wonder who makes one larger, so the round can't get caught in there? Wouldn't that be a move "evolved" action? Do you figure without this action type hang-up, the bottom metal is still advantageous?

Sorry, now that the Glock versus 1911 pie fight is over, I automatically want to start a pie fight over Remingtons versus TR's favorite (no, not the Krag-Jorgensen).

So now, since the pies have stopped flying, and I've proven the superiority of the sweet potato without whipped topping due to it's flatter trajectory and better sectional density, let me ask some serious shooting questions.

I've been a fan of Norma for quite some time. Anyone RECENTLY get some Norma and some Lapua to try side by side? Give me the statement that the Lapua is good-to-go out of the box, just needs chamfering, and loading, and is at least the same quality as Norma. Please. Or am I the only Norma fan out here? You've just got to love CUT brass.

And has anyone noticed the Lapua bullets are kind of variable in length? It's making me wonder if I'm missing something. Those Redding comp dies seat on the ogive, but not being properly educated (GRIN), I do have to wonder. Pat and Wes, you running the SMK's in your 264's, AMAX's? La-poo-HA!'s?

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:12:43 (ZULU)


Who might be good at going from "on" to "off" in a sub-second?  What identifying characteristics do folks that are good at this have in common?  Some of it is nature, some of it nurture.... is a killer mindset really primal... I say resoundingly NO.  A predator mindset is primal, not the same thing in my opinion.

medicjim <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:24:18 (ZULU)

>>>>>Damn Hawgs, the last 5 or 6 days of threads on the roster have given me a headache. Somebody needs to summarize!<<<<<

I agree.

I've heard just about everything pro and con about 1911s, Sigs, S&Ws, Glocks, CZs, Rugers, etc., etc (which I currently own many of). Therefore it's my conclusion to go buy a SA XD40. It's the only (Major Manufacured) pistol that hasn't been crucified (or talked about) during this discussion...yet. Besides, I like the looks of them, feels better than a Glotch, natural POA works better for me, the clips fall out nicely, I like the grip safety, (one other Rosterferian here likes them better and says they're more accurate than the Glock. His words not mine ;)) and besides all that...I want one. How's that for a summary? ;))))))


NOW you can DEEP SIX this thread.


>>>>>I've never heard of condition black.<<<<<<

I haven't either. That must mean...Dead, Dead, Dead.


Brian (In) Sain,

I'll never be able to think of the term "water skiing" w/o thinking of the story you just told. ROTFLMAO. I'd almost pay money to be your partner for one day.


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 15:51:47 (ZULU)

Condition Black is a training term, not a combat condition code.

It is usually called the “black flag”, when the temp gets over 100F, they call a black flag day and training is suspended due to concern of heat injury.

Then they deploy you to some one million degree shit hole and wonder why you can’t cope with the temp or know how to deal with it.

This was an Army training issue, I never encountered this with the Air Force or other Government agencies I worked with.

Just my 2 cents

Badger six out.

Marty <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 16:20:12 (ZULU)


 Both the Norma and Lapua are top quality brass. I have Lapua that I use for the 260 and 308s and Norma for the 6.5x284. There is not much prep needed for either other than what you mentioned.

 I have got to the point I don't even weight Lapua anymore. I bought some 8yrs. ago and it weighed the same as the stuff I got last year. I tried turning necks but could tell no difference in accuracy.

 My only bitch about Norma is that the 6.5x284 brass now has about 4 different lots with different weights and capacities. The two batches I now have take 1gr. difference in powder for the same performance so I must keep them seperated. The Norma has a reputation for being softer brass and usually more expensive. I prefer the Lapua over the Norma for that reason. If I was to buy brass for the 6.5x284 again it would be Lapua. Hope this helps.

Pat <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 16:32:17 (ZULU)


I posted a note about Norma brass awhile back. The lot of 500 I bought all have a .002 thinner neck wall than ANY other brass I have in stock. I had to purchase a new NS bushing just for that brass. The Lapua brass flash holes don't need to be reamed, they're clean. From a performance standpoint, They both shoot more consistent than Remmy, Win. PMC, or any of the other that I've tried in the LTR or M70 308. Case life appears to be about the same with the Lapua lasting a little longer on average. The Norma must be a little softer cuz I have to trim it more often and I have always paid more for Norma. These opinions are based on approximately 3K rounds of 308 and 5K of .223 last year. I use Lapua exclusively except in the M1A. It eats LC Match that I bought in bulk (different years, 66-1980). Not scientific, but it convinced me over a period of time to just stick to Lapua. I hate sorting brass. :))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 17:28:39 (ZULU)

The way the color code was always explained to me was:

1. WHITE  - Totally unaware of ones surroundings.

2. YELLOW - Concious awareness of ones surroundings.

3. ORANGE - Something unusual arouses ones suspicion.

4. RED    - An actual, perceived threat (man with a knife).

5. BLACK  - An all out struggle for your life.




3. WHO DAT ?

4. OH SHIT !


Always made sense to me.

You may get caught in White, and not see Black until you're in it.

The shrinks say you can operate for an infinite amount of time in Yellow with no ill effects to the psyche.

(Common sense stuff really).  

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 17:43:18 (ZULU)

Dave,quoting Lanny Bassham,"look like the best shooters,be like them," something like that,damn the best shooters I know are all old blokes.

Ref,mil issue better calibre,like Ken said,the reason snipers dont get a "better" calibre is a lack of commitment to do it from higher up."Which army issues other than nato calibre",the Oz army uses 6.5x55 as a prac round in the carl gustav 84.It must be in the system.

pistol country,us Aussies arent allowed to play with those nasty things :( so we'll just have to make do with our prohibited pump actions.



Gavan Willis <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 18:04:39 (ZULU)


On the color code thing...

The white, yellow, orange, red, black thing  was quantified by Mas Ayoob. Having studied under Ayoob quite a bit I can say that he wanted to make Jeff Cooper's original code his by making a last chance to make sure you have to shoot. Screw that! Any time your thinking when you should be acting you're going to be a dead man, IMHO. I've seen combat...Ayoob has never busted a cap on a perp, but wanted to make the code "his"...

Jeff Cooper HAS seen the elephant and quantified the code first.

White: Unaware of your surroundings

Yellow: Something has caught your attention, but not a specific threat. According to Cooper you should be in yellow when in public most of the time.

Orange: Aware of a specific threat...

Red: Go command! All bets are off. Act or you won't have time to think about it later.

Norma vs. Lapua. I use Norma in my 6.5 X .284 and have no problems. I AM using the original lot, however. Have some Lapua to try...

Use Lapua exclusively in my .308 and have found it uniform lot to lot.Them Fins know there stuff.

Day going to load some .338 Lapua and go play next week. Just got my cases in from Sinclair International along with my 250 grain Lapua Scenars.

Let's get back to rifles, gents. Don't matter one iota what pistol you use if you are proficient...remember fit, caliber, and reliability are what counts...the rest is your personal choice.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 18:35:40 (ZULU)

I hear ya Wes. You gotta have the mindest and you gotta act CORRECTLY at the CORRECT TIME. It helps if the thinking is already done but it can't always be that way. Sucks if you are behind the curve. Some folks think (and react) fast on their feet. Some don't.

But ... whatever the motivation was for adding the color Black ... I still think it makes sense to do so FOR COPS.

In war, if you get to RED: He's the enemy, he's armed, you go to guns on the fucker or you don't come home, end of story. Don't need no steenking color Black mange.

BUT ON THE STREETS, you may or may not have to shoot him just because he has a weapon and is a threat. Here again is the classic difference between the cops and soldiers. I mean you may have to shoot his ass right the hell now or then again, you may not. Depends entirely on what he's doing with the weapon and his actions and maybe even what has happened prior, whether or not you have cover, etc. He's still damn sure a threat but only you can decide how much of one and what action to take within the parameters of the law.

Just because he has a knife or gun doesn't mean you neccessarily automatically shoot him. "Welp, I'm at RED bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrppp"  Oops. Okay, maybe it was just a little pink.

If he's pointing a weapon at another person then by all means yeah, do what you gotta do, if it's safe to do so. No bystanders, etc. Lots of things to think of QUICK !

If he's just standing there holding it pointing down, or pointing it at himself, it ain't gonna look good for you if you just blast him.

If you are threatened and you shoot him, you are going to have to give specific and articulable facts to a Grand Jury as to why you felt threatened enough to use deadly force. If you can do so fine. If not, you're fucked.

If he's a perceived threat and if you have the drop on him and challenge him i.e. "drop the gun" or whatever, and he does, you're good. Still at Red but good. Can't always do that though.

If he doesn't comply and you are truly threatened, then certainly you may have to light him up. Black.

Certainly, you aren't always going to have that much time to decide. In that case, you may go exactly from White or Yellow to Black (or Red depending on your interpretation of the color code).

Did any of that make sense ?

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:10:40 (ZULU)


Cajun color code says it best.  I'm going to have to borrow that one.  Too funny cause it's true.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:15:04 (ZULU)


Your always good for a laugh and your Cajun version was the best.  Must say it covers it all.  How is the book coming?  Let us know when it is available.


HDR <>
OK, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:43:07 (ZULU)


 Youz guys can call condition colors whatever you want. For me, condition "black" was flying NOE at a slightly higher airspeed than errr, is recommended (allowed), when the damn NVGs quit.  Last thing I saw before they quit was a tree that needed some avoiding...

Then I went to condition "save yer ass."

After the impromptu cyclic climb...condition "hand-shake"...followed by condition "all done for the night..."


Brian, you crack me up.  Car cover...LOL.  I've got some GP Medium tent poles and stakes--maybe we could have a SC camp-out under that thing...

 Had one knife confrontation...I was too dumb to realize how lucky I was at the dumb in fact, I ain't gonna tell ya the exact details except I came out the other end with a win.  And two "extra" wallets.  Once I had the knife (I initiated armed only with an over-sized ego), I asked for the wallets back--the original victims', NOT the perps--but I got their wallets too.  A simple case of a young, slightly drunk ranger turning a robbery into a robbery quite by accident...let's leave the details alone...statutes of limitations and all that.  Hahaha.  The immediate fallout was hero status with some coeds....and I lived Brian's life for a week or two with the chippies diggin' me.  Best TDY trip that whole year...and damned lucky to have lived to tell the story!  I shoulda played the lottery that day.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:45:20 (ZULU)


I think you'll agree on this, but in your field youse don't need all dem fancy assed colors.  Every situation is either black and white, or grey.  hah..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 21:48:10 (ZULU)

JR, George, et al,

Barrels pre-threaded for a AI receiver will no workie with a remington right?  

I think they would have, had the chamber area been more than 4" (2" threaded).  I could have cut the threads off and re-threaded,, but these are also fluted,, so that would have put the chamber under flutes,, which don't sound real bright to me....

Am I off base??


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 22:05:59 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

This may sound kinda dumb but am I a HAWG yet ?

I mean, I been pissin' ya'll off here for about a year and a half and I was just wonderin' how long the probationary period was.

'Lito said I had to dance naked and blindfolded with a hungry baby nanny goat in front of everyone or something before I got my SC secret de-coder ring. Is that true ? Haven't done that since I was a kid. I just don't know guys ...

Book stuff has slowed down a little. Letting the dust settle from Maryland before I start calling them ole warriors up for interviews again. Some of those fellas have some real demons from things they have seen. Just trying to be respectful.

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 22:51:46 (ZULU)


>"This may sound kinda dumb but am I considered a HAWG yet ?"<

Naw... but you make a rightious "Cajun Coonass" ;))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 22:58:20 (ZULU)

Get the shovel Dan;

I shall now here-to-fore refer to the Austrian Tupperware Tiger as the TT-1911 Light. Hope that won't offend anyone.

Mark; I think I told you I tried one of those 40's and tried to trade my TT1911-L for it on the spot. Didn't get it done though. Damn guy was too smart. And I had night sights too.

Try not to get too damn psyco with your weapons confrontations. What if you forget a color? YOu could run your kill drill backwards! And wind up shooting backwards.

Jeager; Would that be the 1896 Winchester?

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:14:03 (ZULU)

Yo hawgs,

Haven't been surfing much.  I see we rehashed Pistola Country again.  

Dan is back.  'Yote bait is still grumpy. ;-)

Insain, "Who dat?"  ROFLMAO!  Cut and paste baby.

Joe, did Blake get one last weekend?  

Be careful of that stainless Springfield, they had a run of bad slides.  They break in half an inch or two back of the muzzle.  That was from ARFCOM, run a search, they have some pics.

Out here.

Geoff M <>
USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:33:12 (ZULU)

Bill:  The color code is simple enough for anyone to understand.  

Make that ALMOST anyone.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:37:17 (ZULU)


Youse mankin' fun of me 38 IQ again??


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:42:05 (ZULU)

For you guys shooting modern gas guns (AR-10's) :)

I just got about 200 Lapua .308 cases and Graf was out of the boolits I ordered.  So next issue, not having reloaded for .308 before, what boolits seem to work well in the regular guns.  Fed 168 GM will do ~3/4 MOA in my A4 to 300 yds (haven't shot further) what boolits work well for you guys?  Any problem with mag length and some of the target type bullets like AMAXes?  I know 175's are gospel for 1k, I'm only looking at 600 yds for Precision 1 @ SMTC.  I'm still shooting the original chrome lined barrel with, I believe, 1:11.25 twist.  Eventually I am planning to send this thing to George, but I want to squeeze what I can out of what I have, my wife doesn't like mac-n-cheese as much as I do!

Steve Burris

Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:53:29 (ZULU)

$0.02 on Glocks:  I have a little bitty model 27 that can put all 9 rounds in a softball-sized group at 25 yards.  I once witnessed a guy with a 10mm Glock knock over pepper poppers at 200 yards with stock sights.  He was admittedly a talented guy, but he'd never tried that particular trick before that day.  The squishy trigger takes a bit of getting used to, but I don't argue with success.

Grasshopper <>
CA, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:55:01 (ZULU)

I have two PSS's in 308 that I will doing some major changes to. One is the DM and the other hinged floor plate. I have not had any problems with the DM, I will like to get way from the Rem. DM. Should I convert to HS DM or go with the A1 stock? The other PSS will be getting an A2 stock and new barrel. One will be 26" tube and the other 20". I used them both for hunting and shooting paper long and short rage work. My bigest problem is keeping the cost down,I want to have the actions trued and barrel refinished. Optics is not the problem, I am goin with Leopold X-III's and Badgger rings and base. What do you think?

Alton Alexander <>
California, - Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 23:57:34 (ZULU)

DAn; I think I got down the "yellow for pissin on myself in public"! That's easy to remember. I got the "Pink for dance naked and blindfolded with a hungry baby nanny goat."

"Red is for go exactly from White or Yellow to Black."

Aw bull, Only Michael Jackson can do that!

"Purple is dangle a baby from a balcony".

I'm confused already! And still Grumpy of course.  

GeoffM; thanks for that, you "made my day punk!" I'm glad I didn't trade my TT1911-L for that maybe! That slide looks good but so does a goat if there's no sheep around.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:31:48 (ZULU)


You can't change the Rem "DM" back to a BDL.  I don't iknow if it will take the HS mag system, call them FIRST before ordering.  Rem had to modify the feed rails of the actiuon to accept the DM system, and you can't go back.

If you are going to have the barrls pulled, DUMP them in the trash.  They are the worst factory barrels in the industry.  Don't take my word for it, just ask the other hawgs on this site!  Rem pays a whoppin' $18 each for them!!

Have a Good Douglas 26" straight taper barrel put on the A2 stock, and it will ballance very well.

Put the 20" (fat Douglas) on the other one.

You can't do this stuff cheap.



We had a vote, and decided that you can be a "Hawgette" since yo' is so funny (lookin' ;))

We can't understand why chicks dig you, unless they are swamp women critters, and you smell of Neutria!!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:36:52 (ZULU)

Chris; you got mixed up again 38 is your bra size! 25 acp is your IQ.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:36:59 (ZULU)

Glock failure update- weapon involved was a recent production Glock 22 that sheared the rear frame rails.  Glock is "Aware of a production problem with the forged frame rail insert and is working on corrective action."  Those of you with tactical tupperware produced in the last 18 months may want to contact Glock to see if your personal weapon is in the serial number range with the problem.  Department issue types should have your armorers pester Glock forthwith on affected models/serial # ranges.

WR Moore <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:46:24 (ZULU)

Thanks for Keepin us posted Mr. Moore, there's nothing holy anymore.

But I can take it! That must be the TT1911-l.F model.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:57:38 (ZULU)

Undude: Did the disk arrive OK?

Grasshopper <>
CA, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 00:59:37 (ZULU)

Department armorer.... hmmm, that'd be the Sheriff, HAHAHA. no joke!

We ain't got one.

Since coonass' gets more women, when my time comes to dance with the goat, I wanna be one a them.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:03:51 (ZULU)

'Yote Bait,

>>> Chris; you got mixed up again 38 is your bra size! 25 acp is your IQ.  <<<

Nooo man,, Only my left titty is big,, the other is normal for a man...  Or,, at least that's what I though,, but with an IQ of 25acp,,, I could be mistaken huh ;)))))

Not even a nibble on the barrel question huh???  Lito-san??


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:09:37 (ZULU)

Got the wif' a 17 HMR and am looking for a decent range scope.  Nothing fancy, but certainly affordable for the limited abuse she'll give the thing.  Would the Vari-X I series be good or does anyone know if they are junk?

Hank <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:26:42 (ZULU)

Recived this e-mail today & would like to share it with the board.  


> Each year I am hired to go to Washington, DC, with the eighth grade class

> from Clinton, WI, where I grew up, to videotape their trip. I greatly


> visiting our nation's capitol, and each year I take some special memories

> back with me. This fall's trip was especially memorable.


> On the last night of our trip we stopped at the Iwo Jima Memorial.


> This memorial is the largest bronze statue in the world and depicts one of

> the most famous photographs in history-that of the six brave soldiers

> raising the American Flag at the top of a rocky hill on the island of Iwo

> Jima, Japan, during WW II. Over one hundred students and chaperones piled

> off the buses and headed towards the memorial. I noticed a solitary figure

> at the base of the statue, and as I got closer he asked, "Where are you

> guys

> from?"


> I told him that we were from Wisconsin.


> "Hey, I'm a cheesehead, too! Come gather around Cheeseheads, and I will

> tell

> you a story."


> James Bradley just happened to be in Washington, DC, to speak at the

> memorial the following day. He was there that night to say good night to

> his

> dad, who has since passed away. He was just about to leave when he saw the

> buses pull up. I videotaped him as he spoke to us, and received his

> permission to share what he said from my videotape. It is one thing to


> the incredible monuments filled with history in Washington, D.C., but it


> quite another to get the kind of insight we received that night. When all

> had gathered around he reverently began to speak. Here are his words that

> night.


> "My name is James Bradley and I'm from Antigo, Wisconsin. My dad is on


> statue, and I just wrote a book called "Flags of Our Fathers" which is #5

> on

> the New York Times Best Seller list right now. It is the story of the six

> boys you see behind me. Six boys raised the flag.



> The first guy putting the pole in the ground is Harlon Block. Harlon was


> all-state football player. He enlisted in the Marine Corps with all the

> senior members of his football team. They were off to play another type of

> game. A game called "War." But it didn't turn out to be a game. Harlon, at

> the age of 21, died with his intestines in his hands. I don't say that to

> gross you out, I say that because there are generals who stand in front of

> this statue and talk about the glory of war. You guys need to know that

> most

> of the boys in Iwo Jima were 17, 18, and 19 years old.


> (He pointed to the statue) You see this next guy? That's Rene Gagnon from

> New Hampshire. If you took Rene's helmet off at the moment this photo was

> taken, and looked in the webbing of that helmet, you would find a

> photograph --- a photograph of his girlfriend. Rene put that in there for

> protection, because he was scared. He was 18 years old. Boys won the


> of Iwo Jima. Boys. Not old men.


> The next guy here, the third guy in this tableau, was Sgt. Mike Strank.

> Mike

> is my hero. He was the hero of all these guys. They called him the "old

> man"

> because he was so old. He was already 24. When Mike would motivate his


> in training camp, he didn't say, "Let's go kill some Japanese" or "Let's

> die

> for our country." He knew he was talking to little boys. Instead he would

> say, "You do what I say, and I'll get you home to your mothers."


> The last guy on this side of the statue is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian from

> Arizona. Ira Hayes walked off Iwo Jima. He went into the White House with

> my

> dad. President Truman told him, "You're a hero." He told reporters, "How

> can

> I feel like a hero when 250 of my buddies hit the island with me and only

> 27

> of us walked off alive?" So you take your class at school. 250 of you

> spending a year together having fun, doing everything together. Then all

> 250

> of you hit the beach, but only 27 of your classmates walk off alive. That

> was Ira Hayes. He had images of horror in his mind. Ira Hayes died dead

> drunk, face down at the age of 32...ten years after this picture was



> The next guy, going around the statue, is Franklin Sousley from Hilltop

> Kentucky. A fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. His best friend, who is now 70, told

> me, "Yeah, you know, we took two cows up on the porch of the Hilltop

> General

> Store. Then we strung wire across the stairs so the cows couldn't get


> Then we fed them Epsom salts. Those cows crapped all night." Yes he was a

> fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. Franklin died on Iwo Jima at the age of 19.


> When the telegram came to tell his mother that he was dead, it went to the

> Hilltop General Store. A barefoot boy ran that telegram up to his mother's

> farm. The neighbors could hear her scream all night and into the morning.

> The neighbors lived a quarter of a mile away.


> The next guy, as we continue to go around the statue is my dad, John

> Bradley

> from Antigo, Wisconsin, where I was raised. My dad lived until

> 1994, but he would never give interviews. When Walter Cronkite's


> or the New York Times would call, we were trained as little kids to say,

> "No, I'm sorry sir, my dad's not here. He is in Canada fishing. No, there

> is

> no phone there, sir. No, we don't know when he is coming back."


> My dad never fished or even went to Canada. Usually, he was sitting there

> right at the table eating his Campbell's soup. But we had to tell the


> that he was out fishing. He didn't want to talk to the press. You see, my

> dad didn't see himself as a hero. Everyone thinks these guys are heroes,

> 'cause they are in a photo and a monument. My dad knew better. He was a

> medic. John Bradley from Wisconsin was a caregiver. In Iwo Jima he


> held over 200 boys as they died. And when boys died in Iwo Jima, they

> writhed and screamed in pain.


> When I was a little boy, my third grade teacher told me that my dad was a

> hero. When I went home and told my dad that, he looked at me and said, "I

> want you always to remember that the heroes of Iwo Jima are the guys who

> did

> not come back. Did NOT come back."


> So that's the story about six nice young boys. Three died on Iwo Jima, and

> three came back as national heroes. Overall 7000 boys died on Iwo Jima in

> the worst battle in the history of the Marine Corps. My voice is giving

> out,

> so I will end here. Thank you for your time."


> Suddenly, the monument wasn't just a big old piece of metal with a flag

> sticking out of the top. It came to life before our eyes with the


> words of a son who did indeed have a father who was a hero. Maybe not a

> hero

> for the reasons most people would believe, but a hero none-the-less.


> We need to remember that God created this vast and glorious world for us


> live in, freely, but also at great sacrifice. Let us never forget from the

> Revolutionary War to the Gulf War and all the wars in-between that

> sacrifice

> was made for our freedom. Remember to pray praises for this great country

> of

> ours and also pray for those still in murderous unrest around the world.

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:31:45 (ZULU)

Steve; at last, something we all can agree on! Thank you.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:43:21 (ZULU)

Long time lurker first time poster. I am looking for an eagle smra shooting mat rifle case. Sniper Country PX and Eagle are out of stock . Does anyone know where I can find one. thanks Dan H.

Dan H. <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 01:44:08 (ZULU)

'Lito, I done told you the womens like me cause of that heavy contour Palma barrel I bring to the shooting matches.

Hawgette ? Whadaya mean Hawgette ? Well, shit.

Oh well, at least me bitch mate in London will be 'appy for that bloody piece o' breaking news.

I'm taking my ball and going home ... not.

Later dudes ... gotta call CDC about knife stuff.

GET OFF THE DAMN PHONE DAN ! (love this edit feature)

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 02:15:06 (ZULU)

All this talk about threat assessment and knives draws me back to a road trip of a few years ago.  After completing a three week climbing trip with my wife to Washington and British Columbia and dropping her at the airport to fly home(I work for myself and she doesn't have as much vacation as I do-funny how that works) I started driving back to Virginia.  About 2:00 AM  in southern Idaho I pulled into a rest area to sleep after 14 hours on the road. As I got out of the van with the dogs(labs) I noticed a guy standing at the door to the mens bathroom . He only had a t-shirt on despite temps that were cool enough for me to grab a jacket before taking the dogs for a leak.  Ten minutes later when I was putting the dogs back in the van so I could go to the bathroom the guy was still standing outside the door so I stuffed my pistol in my pants (yes it was a 1911). Moments after picking a stall the outside  door to the bathroom opened and the crunch crunch of sand between his shoes and the tile floor told me he stopped in front of the stall I was in.  I sat there thinking about the situation long enough for my legs to start going to sleep- better get up now or I won't be able to.  I pulled the pistol from the holster and threw my jacket over it and my forearm in case JQ Public was just standing there minding his business when the stall door opened.  My last thought before reaching for the latch-" this is not an IPSC match where you can try the door 5 times before the buzzer, you have to get it right the first time. As the door opened I'm sure my eyes got reeaaal big. The guy was standing there  pants down to his knees with his unit in one hand and a knife in the other!  He says "move on back in there I've got something for you".  Then it was time for his eyes to get big- I pulled my jacket back ,exposing the pistol.  I told him to drop the knife and move away from the door.  The adrenalin rush let me keep driving for another couple hours.  Not an experience I would like to repeat!                    

rod hansen <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 02:19:20 (ZULU)


Strange day off...planned to go to the range, but wound up cleaning the house and getting out, so it could be shown...did manage some bedding work on my .300 Winnie the Pooh Magnum this evening. Another couple weeks and I'll have the stock shaped, sanded, and finished. Then testing. Will put my Luppie MK 4 16X on it. If it shoots the scope goes to Premier Reticle for a Mil-dot Gen II update.

Big Decision! Have decided to have George Gardner build me a .338 Lapua. Yeah, I'm nut's, but gotta have one. Means I'm selling my SAKO Model 995 Single shot .338 Lapua. Go to the Emporium for details. It's a great deal for a starter gun.

Back to work tomorrow. Fun and games...never a dull moment with this crew.

All for now...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 02:49:00 (ZULU)

Wes - Incoming E-Mail............



BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 04:28:27 (ZULU)


I spoke to the folks at HS Precision, with the Remington DM using the HS DM (it is center feed) hardware it will work with the BDL stock. The AW AI stock for the Remington 700 SA I belive it is a center feed DM.


When is someone going to come up with a bolt action upper for a AR-15? It would be a good move for us Californians!


Alton <>
California, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 04:32:31 (ZULU)

Chris,  AI threaded Barrels are a Metric M-2 thread ( close to 12 pitch) , Basicly the same as a Mauser but with a 1 3/4 barrel Tennon.  If the barrel were not fluted you could chop off the threads and re-do, as you said. just cleaning the threeads does not leave enough meat. they will work on a Winchester which uses a 1" shank. Or a Mauser or SAKO.  

George Out

George Gardner <>
N.Kansas City, MO, 64116 - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:02:16 (ZULU)


I think the closest your going to see to the bolt AR-15 is the Tubb 2000.  You can check it out at:


P.S. - I almost forgot, the 2000 is the match rifle and the 2000T is the tactical version.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:21:18 (ZULU)


On of the trick the "salts" taught us in the 60's with a goverment issue GI holster was to raise the 1911 up about 11/2 inchs, turn it sideways so the sight faced inward toward your leg push down and when you pulled it up from the holster it was cocked and loaded.

This is when the USMC had us carrying rds only in the mag and not in the chamber. amoungst other tricks of surivial  we  were taught.  

this could be done quickly and allowed you to present a loaded 1911 ready to run with very little slow down considering the holster we had to use.

Our Plt Sgt was a Philippine HUK before he joined the corps He was full of very good information  Korea Vet, WWII Vet,and then went on to be a early Viet Nam vet. Yes he came home.

Company Gunny Kirk rotated between Force recon and Field Grunt every 2- 3 years, something about you could only spend so much time in Force Recon then you had to rotate out to be able to raise your cutting score for promotion.

These Pros provided information/training to keep you alive and complete your mission. teaching us stuff that wasn't in any field manual.


I hope the kids are getting this type of training today, but I doubt it.

Semper Fi

Bomac <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:28:32 (ZULU)

Moe, last I talked to the AMU Skunk Works guy he had a 6mm and 6.5mm built on a 5.56 case, and a .30 Remington necked to 7mm.

Kev, "AMEN, Brother!"  Your basement range would be the envy of darned near the entire Roster if they ever saw it (I'm impressed!).

TorF, I've been researching the 6.5 x 55 for a while, and have been keeping an eye open for a Swedish Mauser with the match iron sights.  I'm sure someone bought one of the primo target rifles, put it away in a closet, and is willing to take half what he paid for it.  I'm thinking if it does close to what a 6.5 x 284 does without me having to form brass it will be a bargain.

Pat, Emil Praslick at the AMU shot a 600 yard 200-16X at Oak Ridge (I think) last season with a 6-250 in an AR-10T.  Was going to shoot it across the course, but the butt was just too dang long for him to get comfortable with in different positions and that project just kinda died on the vine.

Art, in my command we'd have teams go on six-week alert cycle, expending large amounts of ammo in sustainment training.  The result of coming off the alert cycle was every soldier turning in his M9 for a brand new one, since the old one would be trash (exactly your experience, I'm sure).

Jaeger, at the Rio in 569 until Friday morning.  Nothing from 0900 to 1200, then free from 1400 to about 1700 (then locked up til 2300 and we fly out Friday).  I've not shot a Baker Special, so I can't comment.  I have used a (stock, wood) Marksman and like it on a Model 70.

Marc, if the users get off their duffs and really want a 6.5, they'll get ammo in the system.  Most units across the entire Army don't know how to shoot their 7.62s well enough to know the difference.  Just because it's not the current round doesn't mean it couldn't be.  Look at a standard US infantry or armor division today: the ammo supply system has to maintain HUNDREDs of ammo lines just to conduct plain vanilla operations (let's see... 5.56 in bandos; 5.56 in 4-1 belts; 7.62 in 4-1 belts; 7.62 M118, M852, or 118LR; .50 cal 4-1 belts; 9mm; 60mm in HE, WP, and illum; 81mm in HE, WP, and illum; 105mm in HE, WP, and illum; 120 in HEAT, HE, and sabot; 155 in HE, WP, and illum; MLRS rockets; 25mm for Bradley chain guns; 30mm for Apache chain guns; TOWs; Dragons or Javelins; frag grenades; star clusters and parachute flares; Hellfires; 2.75s; Claymores; AT-4s (the LAW replacement); 40mm for Mark 19s; Stingers; smoke discharger grenades; etc, etc, etc not counting all the other exotics like the stuff for engineers and chemical units).

Even the 45-70 you like to shoot was still in the system into the 70's (in the Navy/DODIC system for firing pull-across lines between ships for underway replenishments).

Adding a 6.5, 300, or 338 line is child's play.

I think a lot of the pie fights on this board could be cleared up over burnt beef and beer like used to happen after the Storm Mountain shoots (where guys were either happy or sheepish over the day's results, but the COMMON experience of a tough day was the base line).

Brian, someone once told me Cooper's color system reflected the color of his boxers as he progressed from calm to gunfight.

Steve, I've only fired the 175s in my AR-10T, so am not a good source (Titan?).

Sinister Dave <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 05:29:41 (ZULU)

Quick knife service comment:

I purchased a used Emerson knife off of the emporium. It had a broken tip and was pretty dull. I sent it off to Emerson to get fixed

I got it back within a week and it looked brand friggin new. They replaced the clip, screws, and completely re-did the blade.

It looked so good I thought that they just sent me a new knife, but the 1999 date on the blade made me think that unless they have a bin of 1999 blades that they actually re-ground the blade and overhauled the knife.

When I encounter great service I think that it is important to mention it. I was very impressed! All of this for $15 including shipping!

Brian, keep your comments and observations coming, they preserve my sanity during a challenging work week!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:19:39 (ZULU)

Bill, the broken slide issue was directed at Joe M.  The affected pistols are a run of Springfield stainless.......1911's!  

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:35:33 (ZULU)


I checked on how M24 receivers are finished at Remington and got this reply from Fred Martin, who was the engineer behind the M24 development.

Marc, Receivers are white as is the barrel and barrel bracket, assembled and

Micro-Bond as a unit look close at the barrel bracket there is not supposed to

be any crak or groove at the barrel, bracket, receiver junction. If there is you

have poor powder coat or someone is tweeking the barrel you would also bable to

see vise marks on the barrel/receiver and probably some powder coat cracking on

the bracket...................Later Fred


Marc Palmer <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:39:55 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a thread at ARFCOM with some enlightening pics.

Or click on my name.

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 06:48:27 (ZULU)

Are any others receiving a ton of spam email and viruses over the last week? I used to get about 20-25 a day, and it is now 100+ Agrhhh!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 07:23:13 (ZULU)

Steve  -   In  you AR-10A4 the barrel twist is a 1-12.  Only the "T" model comes with the 1-11.25 twist.  I shoot a variety of stuff in mine because with the 20" tube you are hard pressed to get to 1000 accuately even with the 175's. 800 is as far I would push it. To get their you would need very hot hand loads and that is not good for these things.  I shoot alot of the 168's because I can get it cheaper than the 175's.  If you hand load try the Nosler Balastic tips in the 165's.  I really like these because they fly like the MK 175's and get their a little quicker.  I have had good results with the good surplus stuff as well, but it varies soo much you have to look at each case, and if you can get a sample to shoot. Contact me via email and I will give you more detailed info.

Sinister -  I heard the same thing about Copper's colors..........May be some truth too it after all.

General question for you 6.5 guys??????  What brand and type of bullets are giving you guys these high  bc's over .600????  

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 08:55:54 (ZULU)

GEOFF; SORRY, I saw those pix you directed too. Maybe we could design a pistol using tupperwear that wouldn't do that?  I thought you meant it was that new 40 thing obviously. All these new designs and metals is bound to produce some problems I guess.

I wouldn't want to find out about that one the hard way.

MIchael; So am I, it's pathetic. My delete key is about worn out.

Dave; You speak a lot of truth, in fact you may be a clear and present enemy of BS. I wish we could just have a big barbeque but what we do after that? I hate the simple life and there are no more buffalo much.

ON the CALIF bolt gun. Bill Wylde has been shooting something like that for many years also and winning and winning so I know it works but Tubbs and he have their reasons. I'm not sure its worth fooling with for just a law problem. I think Bill would build you anything like that you'd want but it would not be cheap to do or quick. The new California receivers with no removable clip negate the need actually. The way I read it. No removable clip, no restriction, you can put a collapsable stock or any other forbidden feature on em if they don't have a removable clip. Sometimes I think the varmint application would negate the need for a removable clip anyway.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 08:57:52 (ZULU)

Steve from Joisey,

You're a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you for your efforts with kids and for sharing that story. I borrowed it, to print and take home to my son. I hope you don't mind.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 09:55:33 (ZULU)


Thank you.  I figure I'll pass on these barrels,,, Remington actions are much easier to get,, and the stocks are more available right now anyway.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 11:26:15 (ZULU)


Brian, missed your earlier post on color codes. Have to admit you have some good points, but believe we are argueing semantics. Red or Black makes little difference. What IS important is that you make sure you are justified in use of deadly force. I train to do that in "orange" before going to "red". If you train to use "red" as the final assessment, that's fine. It does quantify that you are justified in using deadly force. I should note that even in "go/red" you are watching for changes in the situation.

Ain't the wild west any more...

0430 and still can't get to sleep...damn.

Later, oops, earlier, gents.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 11:39:20 (ZULU)


BC's on the 6.5 come close to .600. I use Sierra 142 grain Match Kings exclusively in my 6.5 X .284. The factory states a BC of .595 for that bullet above 2,850 FPS and of course that tapers off as velocity drops.

The big .30's (220 and 240 grain) go above .600 and the 300 grain .338 Match King goes over .700.

Don't get to hung up on BC's. The factories tend to be "generous" in their estimations. Find a good bullet that shoots for your intended and be happy.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 11:57:35 (ZULU)

Ref: BC's

Me thinks the Lapua Scenar 139 grain in 6.5mm has a BC of .615.  That is the round I'm going to try first when my new stick is done.......what time is it anyway?


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 12:09:39 (ZULU)


FYI, Sinclair has 142SMK's on sale during month of December.  $88 per 500.  Good price.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 12:32:19 (ZULU)

Mark Palmer,

I have a Winchester 1885 Hi Wall in 40-70 Ballard.  I think BP rifles would make good sniper rifles --- You know like when the Ninja has done his thing and then disappears in a puff of smoke.

Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 12:55:11 (ZULU)


Black Powder as a sniper rifle??  Maybe,, you'd have time to pick up and move before the round got to the target ;))

Berger's advertized BC for the .264" 140VLD is .627.  I'd have to see it to beleive it,, but that's what they say.  

The 142SMK is all I've used in my 6.5,, and it's worked so well I don't see why I'd want to pay $5 to $10 more per box for something else. I've used about 7 lots of 142's and have had NO change in zero or performance from one to the next. I do notice the bullets change in length a bit form one lot to the next,, but they all perfrom the same with no adjustments to the load.  

Oh,, and that has held true for the H4831SC I've been using also...  I'm on can number 5, different lots, no noticable change in zero's or POA/POI at distance.

Oh yeah,, it seems the first shot zero for 1K being off has not reared it's ugly head the last three matches.  All I can figure is that I've been leaving the scope on it's 1K zero and not dialing back down to the 100 yard zero when the day is through.  Looks like it may be a scope issue huh,,,,


Chris <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 13:07:28 (ZULU)


 Thanks for the up dates on the 6-250s. I had talked to Emil through e.mails when I was looking at the 6.5x284, very knowlegable and a fine gentleman to talk to.


  I see the "Crew" has already answered you questions on the 6.5s BCs and I agree with Chris. I have never shot any Burgers but have seen them advertised with a .640 BC. The early AMAXs were also rated with a 6.5 BC but they came apart in a 260 so I know they would never survive in a 6.5x284.

 The first box I bought I was shooting in the .1s and .2s with them at 100 and 200yds but what I soon realized was that after about the third group in the .1s or .2s (I just knew in my heart that I wasn't really that good off a bench even though I wanted to belive it so bad!!)(HA)Was that half of the bullets weren't making it to the target!!!

 I called Hornady and they said, "Well, yea, maybe thats possible, but we can't say for sure but we are changing to a new bullet". They didn't want to admit they had a problem.


 Are you really sure you want to be a "Hawg"??? Maybe you should take some meds and rethink the issue. If you still want to be one after the medication then your probably qualified.

Pat <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 13:37:35 (ZULU)

Wes: Gotcha. We're on the same page bro. How's the carpal tunnel ?

Coopers brithces - Sinister: lmao but now that I think about it, that has been my experience too.


Cold down here (for down here). Buddy of mine went duck hunting. Had a full wet suit on under his waders.

Had to go. Bad.


By the end of the hunt, shit was squishing out of the wrist cuffs.

I cannot imagine ... lmao.

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 13:48:43 (ZULU)

Grasshopper, got the disk. Thank you very much. Cant wait to get caught up on slings so I can have a marathon sniper watching event.

Dave, damm cant call you that, you earned the title Col. or Sir. I would love to see us get a place we could get something like the old Storm Mountain Matches going again.  Mid point in the uS would be great, that way no one would have that long haul. We could all travel a little ways.  Sarge I think is working at something. As usual you make alot of sense.  That must have been hard sharing your brothers story with us. I only mety your brother once but damm nice guy for sure.Tell him Im still waiting for that department against department match, but it would not be the first time I was beat.

Kevin, a basement 50 yard range? Your living right? Ill bring the beer for after.

Bill Rogers Grump? You?  Damm that picture of the SS Springfield made me wonder. I have never seen that before.  The slide looked like a casting to me.  I was told they were forged slides from Springfield, but the metal did not look forged the way it broke. Anyone with more info?

I picked up 3000 Speer 190 grain 30 cal Match bullets. Price was too good to pass up. Going to work a load for my 300WSM and cant find the BC for this bullet anywhere. Anyone have the BC from an old manual anywhere?

A little joke.  A famous Michael J.(not wanting to be sued) was talking with his boyfriend. The boyfreind says "I am leaving"

Michael responded "Why, we have such good times. We talk. We share our feelings and the sex is the best either of us has had" The boyfriend responded " I found out your a pedafile" Michael responded "Pedifile thats a big word for a six year old"


MikeMIller <>
CA, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 14:16:02 (ZULU)

Have any of you folks had problems with mis-fires using CCI 7.62mm #34 primers?

Have recently run into about a 60% failure to fire first strike.


timberbeast <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 14:39:10 (ZULU)

Dan H.     On the Eagle mat, you might try

Jerry S. <>
Ice and Snow Country, MN, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:10:45 (ZULU)

brian k. sain   HAWGETTE!!!

better get your pink frilly buttfloss thingy on ,cause it looks like it's my turn on top! HA!

Oh Dear, the thought of Brian in that pink thing has just conjured up an image that didn't EVER want in my head... I am now officially "unwell".


Not sure if it's any help but over here we can't have semi autos unless it's a .22 (rimfire). We use AR15's with no gas system. (can't even have the hole in the barrel!)Southern Gun Company over here ( make a modified straight pull upper. There is a cocking handle screwed onto the bolt carrier and the ejection port is milled out to allow a longer pull so you don't have to use the T handle to cock it. They also mill a slot in the left hand side and fit a captive cocking handle there which mates with a milled recess in the front left of the bolt carrier. The left hand side is REAL quick when shooting off a bipod. (Almost up to semi auto speeds with a bit of practice.) Prices would be expensive by US standards but the concept is worth a look. Also I seem to remember seeing something from Parker Hale ( before their demise)that looked like a bolt action upper on an AR lower.

Mark D

Mark Dougan <>
London, UK - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:15:22 (ZULU)

Mike; when I saw that picture my first thought was, "I thought they had forged slides?" It sure looks cast. Stainless may just look different. That would be bad some late night in China Town.

A-max bullets- are pretty thin skinned. Just thinking outloud but Hornady is the company that gave us SX bullets. They would kill coyotes like a 30-06 but would blow up at about 3400 and above or be torn to demolish with fast twist rates like in a Ruger Ranch Rifle in stainless barrel. The A max is a little more apt to survive high speeds than the SX series but the kindred is there. With thin jackets the bullets seem to shoot more accurate so I'm thinking that A-max is a trade off between accuracy and good Bal. coef. brought on by the plastic nose cone and elongated design. The .30 cal had to be reshaped due to their getting a little carried away with sharp nose affect. The Bal coef. wasn't rerated that I ever saw. IT just stayed the same and how that was accomplished musts be the best kept secret at Hornady.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:17:38 (ZULU)

That is quite enough out of you young man. ha.

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:22:53 (ZULU)

Sorry for this long post but this is one of the funniest jokes I have seen in a while:

Texas Chili

If you can read the whole story without tears of laugher running down your cheeks, then there's no hope for you.

NOTE: Please take time to read this slowly. If you pay attention to the first two judges, the reaction of the third is even better.

For those of you who have lived in Texas, you know how true this is.

They actually have a Chili cook-off about the time the rodeo comes to town. It takes up a major portion of the parking lot at the Astrodome. The notes are from an inexperienced chili taster named Frank, who was visiting Texas from the East Coast:

Frank: "Recently, I was honored to be selected as a judge at a chili cook-off. The original person called in sick at the last moment and I happened to be standing there at the judge's table asking directions to the Budweiser truck, when the call came in. I was assured by the other two judges (Native Texans) that the chili wouldn't be all that spicy and, besides, they told me I could have free beer during the tasting, So I accepted."

Here are the scorecards from the event:

Chili # 1 Mike's Maniac Mobster Monster Chili -- Judge #1 A little too heavy on the tomato. Amusing kick. Judge # 2 - Nice, smooth tomato flavor. Very mild Judge # 3 (Frank) Holy shit, what the hell is this stuff? You could remove dried paint from your driveway. Took me two beers to put the flames out. I hope that's the worst one. These Texans are crazy.

Chili # 2 Arthur's Afterburner Chili -- Judge # 1 - Smoky, with a hint of pork. Slight jalapeno tang. Judge # - 2 Exciting BBQ flavor, needs more peppers to be taken seriously. Judge # 3 - Keep this out of the reach of children. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to taste besides pain. I had to wave off two people who wanted to give me the Heimlich maneuver. They had to rush in more beer when they saw the look on my face.

Chili # 3 Fred's Famous Burn Down the Barn Chili -- Judge # 1 - Excellent firehouse chili. Great kick. Needs more beans. Judge # 2 - A beanless chili, a bit salty, good use of peppers. Judge # 3 -- Call the EPA. I've located a uranium spill. My nose feels like I have been snorting Drano. Everyone knows the routine by now. Get me more beer before I ignite. Barmaid pounded me on the back, now my backbone is in the front part of my chest. I'm getting shit-faced from all of the beer.

Chili # 4 Bubba's Black Magic -- Judge # 1 - Black bean chili with almost no spice. Disappointing. Judge # 2 - Hint of lime in the black beans. Good side dish for fish or other mild foods, not much of a chili. Judge # 3 - I felt something scraping across my tongue, but was unable to taste it. Is it possible to burn out taste buds? Sally, the barmaid, was standing behind me with fresh refills. That 300-lb. bitch is starting to look HOT -- just like this nuclear waste I'm eating. Is chili an aphrodisiac?

Chili # 5 Linda's Legal Lip Remover -- Judge # 1 - Meaty, strong chili. Cayenne peppers freshly ground, adding considerable kick. Very impressive. Judge # 2 - Chili using shredded beef, could use more tomato. Must admit the cayenne peppers make a strong statement. Judge # 3 - My ears are ringing, sweat is pouring off my forehead and I can no longer focus my eyes. I farted and four people behind me needed paramedics. The contestant seemed offended when I told her that her chili had given me brain damage. Sally saved my tongue from bleeding by pouring beer directly on it from the pitcher. I wonder if I'm burning my lips off. It really pisses me off that the other judges asked me to stop screaming. Screw those rednecks.

Chili # 6 Vera's Very Vegetarian Variety! Judge # 1 - Thin yet bold vegetarian variety chili. Good balance of spices and peppers. Judge # 2 - The best yet. Aggressive use of peppers, onions, and garlic. Superb. Judge # 3 - My intestines are now a straight pipe filled with gaseous, sulfuric flames. I shit myself when I farted and I'm worried it will eat through the chair. No one seems inclined to stand behind me except that slut Sally. She must be kinkier than I thought. Can't feel my lips anymore. I need to wipe my ass with a snow cone.

Chili # 7 Susan's Screaming Sensation Chili Judge # 1 -- A mediocre chili with too much reliance on canned peppers. Judge # 2 -- Ho hum, tastes as if the chef literally threw in a can of chili peppers at the last moment. I should take note that I am worried about Judge # 3. He appears to be in a bit of distress as he is cursing uncontrollably. Judge # 3 - You could put a grenade in my mouth, pull the pin, and I wouldn't feel a thing. I've lost sight in one eye, and the world sounds like it is made of rushing water. My shirt is covered with chili which slid unnoticed out of my mouth. My pants are full of lava-like shit to match my shirt. At least during the autopsy, they'll know what killed me. I've decided to stop breathing, its too painful. Screw it, I'm not getting any oxygen anyway. If I need air, I'll just suck it in through the 4-inch hole in my stomach.

Chili #8 Tommy's Toe-Nail Curling Chili Judge # 1 - The perfect ending, this is a nice blend chili. Not too bold but spicy enough to declare its existence. Judge # 2 -- This final entry is a good, balance chili. Neither mild nor hot. Sorry to see that most of it was lost when Judge # 3 passed out, fell over and pulled the chili pot down on top of himself. Not sure if he's going to make it. Poor dude, wonder how he'd have reacted to really hot chili.

Robert H <>
NE, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:28:04 (ZULU)

John in B'town,

 I got the package, thanks!!!!


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 15:56:45 (ZULU)

Robert H..

  ROFLMAO!! Could you e.mail me a copy of that?? I am not smart enough to sort if off of here, thanks!!

Pat <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 16:29:20 (ZULU)

Brian and all,

Great memory, Brian. Except for a small scar from the carpal tunnel operation I'm fine. Will never regain all the strength in my middle two fingers. The GOOD NEWS is that my trigger finger is fine...;-)

Not sure the operation did that much good. Except to take the pain away.

Now if I can just get my 51 year old body in for rework...:-0

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:05:21 (ZULU)

Had an interesting experience at the Sacramento match last weekend. A guy wanting to get into high power rifle was asking my opinion on email about what rifle to buy.  I don't know much about rifle models, I only have two that are worth a damn past 200 yards because I came late to the game.  But I offered up what I knew from other's experience (eg: stay away from the PSS), and offered to share my AT1-C24 if he thought he was up to our match.  He accepted the offer and I threw some extra handloads in the gym bag.

The guy shows up a bit late, just barely in time to go out with the first relay.  He gets an abbreviated safety lecture from the match coordinator, and I give him about 30 seconds of coaching on rested prone position, how to use my dope card, how to read the knobs on the B&L tactical, etc., and off he goes.  (Whoops, forgot to tell him where the magazine release is.  Oh, well, he'll probably figure it out.)

I'm watching his target as I'm pulling mine in the pits.  I can tell his 200 yard shots have 100 yard dope on, the 300 yard isn't much better.  By 500 yards, though, he's starting to get the hang of it.  (Turns out he never did find the mag release, he's single-feeding the rounds.)  600, 800, 900 yards, he's still hanging in there.  At 1000 yards he puts three cold shots in the B27 scoring area his first time out.  Do you know how many months it took me to get three scoring shots at 1K??

Final score, the newbie brings in about 225 points to my 250.  (I hate light wind, I'm better at calling a steady blow.)  At least he didn't beat me with my own rifle, but now I gotta ask myself: how much of my success (such as it is) is just due to good equipment?  Oh, well, the new kid is totally jazzed about tactical shooting now, I think he's hooked.

Grasshopper <>
CA, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:21:17 (ZULU)

WES: Yeah, wife says I got a pornographic memory.

It's a curse.

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:38:20 (ZULU)

>>>>>I would love to see us get a place we could get something like the old Storm Mountain Matches going again.  Mid point in the uS would be great, that way no one would have that long haul. We could all travel a little ways.<<<<

I am trying to get something together at Ft McCoy(Wisconsin) like what you describe.  I was trying to see if there any interest, I got three responses.  I take it you would be interested too?  I'd like to get a good handle on numbers ASAP because I'm working on getting helo support(no BS) and the helo unit would need numbers for lift.  I'm looking at late April 03 for a long weekend (Fri-Sun)  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:45:51 (ZULU)

Thanks guys for the 6.5 bullet info.  Maybe a .260 down the road for the oldest daughter.  

Fat one  -   isn't that a nightforce scope you are shooting??

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 17:48:14 (ZULU)


oops, George covered it.. Yep, youse can only go to a smaller diameter on the threads, the AI's are imperially challenged threads, and if you turned the diameter down youse would be stuck with going to, I ain't a gonna say Ruu, Ruuug, no, Winchester..

But, how far back are the flutes again?

who dese mystery el cheapo barrels from, anyway, c'mon, I won't tell...


Yer lucky I've got the NHS, otherwise I'd be sendin you a bill for the re-stitching of me sides, ya crazy shit..  Keep em comin, hawg..

Robert H,

way too funny.. good stuff


someone mentioned something about boots developing the 338 Lapua?  not sure about that, but did you know he was on a project concerning the 8mm Mag sniper round with Remington during the Gulf War?  hmmm, 8mm, in betweenie the 338 and 308, hmm...



JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:19:10 (ZULU)


Besides the fixed mag recievers that Brogers mentioned there is a pump action AR made by DPMS.


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:39:04 (ZULU)

Dear wife was standing behind me when I read the chili post, she said she had more fun watching me than reading the story. Now I think I've damaged something internal...that was hilarious!

Chris, I think you're being too hard on yourself.  From where I was sitting, both of yours looked to be the same size.  Of course, since we weren't alone, I had to be discreet, so I could have missed something.  It was good meeting you.  By the way, if anybody is thinking of going up Chris's way, he pays for lunch. Too bad we didn't get to burn any Varget, but I had a 16-hour trip back to San Antonio, we'll try it again another time. God knows I could have used the time out, though, after spending Thanksgiving with a psycologist and a lawyer for relatives......oy.

Anyone know who makes the barrels Howa uses?

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:45:32 (ZULU)

Ken M.,

  That might be a month too late for me to play.  But First week of January I will start my "office calls" here to get the ball rolling on my end.  On Liability issues, Linda F., at PAO is pretty good about smoothing things over with the JAG-weenies.  Should be pretty straight forward coordinations.  I brought in a bunch of High School kids for a demo-demo (chuckle).  If I can pull that off, this crew ought to be easy to get on the ranges!  I gather you'll want a helicopter LZ too.  That is way cool.  I'll check the schedules while I am at it--might be a MLRS shoot in April--always a good show on either end.  Heheh.  I'll email you summaries of what I find out by 15 January...


 Thanks for the tip on the springfatigues, err, 'fields.  That isn't remotely what I want for a few bucks savings'.  My wife wouldn't appreciate that at all...and Kuwait ain't far enough to hide from her wrath.  Better to just go Kimber...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:51:35 (ZULU)

Ken M.

 Add two more to the Ft.McCoy gig in April.  Sounds great.

 Late in the summer of 1978 I was at Ft.McCoy with my battalion from the 101st. This story should have started with "this is no shit".  I was the Battalion S-3 Air at the time and there wasn't a lot for me to do but I had an OH-58 and plenty of JP4 so I stayed out of the Battalion Headquarters doing recons of training areas most of the time.  One day it seemed like a good idea to go see a place called The Dells. As it turns out a taxpayer called in the tail number and as Ricky Ricardo would say,"I had some splaining to do."


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 18:56:42 (ZULU)

Charles S Hunt:  Oy, indeed.  Aren't Howa barrels made by Howa in Japan?  

Ken M:  Late April?  Won't you be on an all expense paid vacation about then?

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 19:10:59 (ZULU)


  Thank you!!


 Wait until he tries it on his own without your dope. Then it will be a different story. I have taken people out to shoot with my guns and put all the data on the scope then let them shoot. They think that theres not much to it.(HA)

Ken M..

 Where is Camp McCoy?? I am sure you could count me and my son in. What type of shoot are we talking about??

Pat <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 19:21:28 (ZULU)


I took a guy that had never shot at 1K before and called his wind adjustmenst or holds for him.  He shot a 192 at 1K his first time out with my 308.  With my wife,, I dialed in wind, as she didn't even know how to load the rifle, and she shot a 195 at 1K.  

IMO having good equipment is a definate plus, but having good dope for that equipment, either layed out in a data book or being called as from a spotter, is the key to success.  Pulling the trigger, while rested on a bipod is only a small part of the equasion.

The thing I like most about letting new shooters use my stuff,, they do well and they come back.  THAT is what's important..  you did a good thing.


Yes, it's a 3.5x15x50 NXS.  When I get around to stripping the rifle down for the season I'll send it back to Nightforce and see what they have to say.  There are some predicatibility issues with the tracking also,, but it's repeatable if you have the dope.  I only run into problems with zero when I take her up a couple turns, wind is a factor no matter what elevation I'm at but it's a starnge probelm and hard to explain.  It  doesn't shifts on the way up but shifts right when you turn it back down,, doing a 3l,6u,6u,3r,3r,6d,6d,3l, moa track test.  We'll see how it comes back from NF.  If it's the same old same old,, I'll just leave it set at 1K and leave it on the rifle for the wife. It'll hold a zero without fault once it's there,, so it works for a dedicated 1K rifle.


Chris <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 19:38:44 (ZULU)

Ref: Ft.McCoy

185 miles from Milwaukee

170 miles from St.Paul


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 20:03:23 (ZULU)


Funny Thing, I remember posting somthing about the Glock "problem" a few weeks ago and NOBODY seemed to think it was important.........

Theres a 1-800 number you can call for over the phone verification via SN ranges.

Mine came back "clean" after a call on Vets Day.

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 20:39:31 (ZULU)

Ken M-

Sign me up for the McCoy match (I also sent you an email).


The cajin color codes & the chili story have been the funniest stuff I've read on the DR & I've been lurking/reading for 3+ years. Good Stuff!!!

danny mull <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 20:50:31 (ZULU)


  ON letting new shooters use your good equipement....I sure have caused several friends to spend LOTS of money gearing up after using different rifles of mine, most notably the Preban SR25 with Mk4.

Louis <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 21:37:40 (ZULU)

PeteR' nobody knew you!! You don't post often enough. They Thought you might be a spy or something.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 21:52:28 (ZULU)

Ft. McCoy;

   Will this be a military shoot or can we all attend? I would like to do it. My birthday is April 2, so it would be a cool birthday if we did it that weekend.

   Can we bring guest? I have a brother who was with the 82d ABN, I bet he would love it.


   Be careful what you say about The Jacko. It might hurt his feelings. I, however, found it very amusing. Sometimes I wonder why lightning doesn't strike people like he,she,it-shit.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 22:29:50 (ZULU)

Damn what a mess down here is ice castle land! Duke Power says we had over a million people without power today and that this shit is worse that during Hurrican Hugo OR the great ice storm of 1996. Charlotte even made the national boob tube news. Had to crank the generator up this morning, but fer sum reeson the puter do not lak generator power. Had to wait for the real power to come back on to make a post. Gonna have to throw the chain saw in the nasty old evironmentally unfriendly SUV just to get to work again tomorrow.

Got my shooting coat from Creedmore today. Cleaned 20 fishing reels to pay for this thing but is sure is purty. They sent a size 44 and I have a bra size of 45. This sucka is tight as Dick's hatband, however tight that is. I can tell now why these things are so miserable suring the summer. Now to figure out how to hook up the sling thingie and I'll be in business. Wish I lived closer to Sinister.

Before the pistol thing finally peters out, is anyone familiar with the police model Smith 40 cals? They are selling the police trade-ins at a local weapons of mass construction establishment for the poultry sum of $250. Some look brand new with very little obvious barrel wear. EMAIL ME OFF THE ROSTER SO THE PISTOL POOP WON'T GET STARTED AGAIN PLEASE.

Time to hit the shop, Bolster frozen and out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 23:14:05 (ZULU)

I dug this out for you guys thinking of coming to 'sconsin.


Words of Wisdom from and about Wisconsin. (?)

How To Save Your Ass If You Plan To Visit Wisconsin This Summer.

Issued by the Wisconsin Tourism Bureau to ALL visitors:

1) Don't order filet mignon or pasta primavera at Al's Lodge. It's a diner. They serve breakfast 24 hours a day. Let them cook something they know. If you upset the ladies in the kitchen they'll kick your ass.

2) Don't laugh at the names of our little towns (Sheboygan, Menominee, Nekoosa, Prairie du Chien, etc.) or we will just have to kick your ass.

3) Don't order a bottle or a can of soda here. Here it's called "pop". Accept it. Doing otherwise can lead to an ass kicking.

4) We know our heritage. Most of us are more literate than you are. We are also better educated and generally a lot nicer. Don't refer to us as a bunch of hicks or we'll kick your ass.

5) We have plenty of business sense. You have to make a living here. Naturally, we do sometimes have small lapses in judgment from time to time, but we are not dumb enough to let someone move to our state in order to run for the Senate. If someone tried to do that, we would kick her ass.

6) Don't laugh at our giant fiberglass fish and cows. Anything that inspires tourists to buy 50,000 postcards can't be bad. And don't laugh at our love and pride of cheese or we'll kick your ass.

7) We are fully aware of how cold it gets here in the winter, so shut up. Just spend your money and get the hell out of here or we'll kick your ass.

8) Don't order the vegetarian special at the local diner. Everyone will instantly know that you're a tourist. Eat your steak well done like God intended and have some potatoes with that, for heaven's sake! Also, don't ask what a hot dish is or we'll kick your ass.

9) Don't try to fake a Wisconsin accent. We don't have an accent. That will incite a riot and you will get your ass kicked.

10) Don't talk about how much better things are at home because we know better. Many of us have visited big-city hellholes like Detroit, New York, and Chicago, and we have the scars to prove it. If you don't like it here, Interstate 90, 94, and 43 are ready when you are. Move your ass on home before it gets kicked.

11) Don't complain that Wisconsin has too many mosquitoes and farmland. If you whine about OUR scenic beauty we'll kick your ass all the way back to Chicago.

12) Don't ridicule our mannerisms. We only speak when spoken to. We hold doors open for others. We offer our seats to old folks because such things are expected of civilized people. Behave yourselves around our sweet, little gray-haired grandmothers or they will kick some manners into your ass just like they did ours.

13) So you think we're quaint or losers because most of us live on the farm or in the woods? That's because we have enough sense to not live in filthy, smelly, crime-infested cesspools like New York or LA. Make fun of our fresh air and we'll kick your ass.

14) Oshkosh B'gosh is NOT a joke. Your ass will be kicked.

15) The Green Bay Packers are not a joke. God created the greatest football

dynasty ever and placed it in Green Bay. Any jokes about the Packers or Vince Lombardi will result in a severe and unrelenting ass kicking.

16) If you are from Atlanta, for your own safety, say you are from somewhere else, lest you get your ass kicked. (Take three sports franchises from Milwaukee and we have a tendency to hold a grudge.)

17) If you are looking for a water fountain, you'll need to go to a park. Water comes out of bubblers here. Make a joke about it, and you guessed it, another ass kicking.

18) Sausage Races are cool. Make fun of it, and one of the Sausages will come up from the field of Miller Park and lay down a 8 foot sausage ass kicking on you.

19) The University of Wisconsin is the oldest, best school in the Big Ten.

Any jokes about the quality of UW will result in Barry Alvarez, Ron Dayne,

Dick Bennett, Bo Ryan, Pat Richter, and any able bodied UW students assisting Bucky Badger in his class, Ass-Kicking 101.

20) Last, but not least, DO NOT DARE to come out here and tell us that hunting is cruelty to animals and venison is not edible meat. This will get your ass shot (after it is kicked). Say this twice and you will go home in a pine box. Minus your ass.

Now enjoy your visit and then go home!

With all the talk of a possible match at Camp Ripley, I thought this would be fitting.

Just what type of match would this be? This old asshole just might try it.


John <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 23:32:53 (ZULU)

Great post, John.  One thing that you don't have to worry about, is someone making fun of your rifle barrels.  Wisconsin cut rifled barrels rule.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 23:54:59 (ZULU)

Pat asked-"Where is camp McCoy"

Why it's right here under my ass, son...Heheh.  Couldn't resist being a smart ass...but to be specific, I90 and I94 come out of Chicago seperately (one to Milwaukee, the other further west), and link up again in Madison.  About 90 miles north of Madison, they split off again.  The area above and between that intersection is Fort McCoy.  The most convenient airport is Lacrosse, the least expensive is Minnie-St Paul or Chicago.  Amtrack comes into Tomah (local 'berg) and the Buses run there too.  If I am still around by then, I can send a fifteen-pax van out for trans from everywhere except Chi-town.  

 With the exception of Rick's ranges--the ranges here are better than most of them at Bragg.  Big political bucks poured into this hole during Clinton's reign.  

The billeting should be free, as long as no one minds an open bay two story WWII "theater Construction, temporary wood frame structure" that is modernized to include heat (likely) or air (yeah right).  I think the many layers of paint hide the fact that the frames rotted out 50 years back!  Heheh.  Kevin, the coal you would remember here is gone finally,  about ten years ago, they converted.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:14:30 (ZULU)

A match at Ft. McCoy?

I can't pass this up.  Count me in as well.

What's the course of fire?

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:39:38 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with the shooting mats that Tactical Tailor sells.  They are very reasonably priced, and I was curious if anyone had any comments about their quality.  $75 is a lot cheaper that something like a SMRA from Eagle.


Michael Roberts <>
MidMO, MO, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:48:42 (ZULU)

Ken M, Mail inbound regarding McCoy Match, NA.

Spent some time there one summer early 80's. Most of it was in the medical clinic telling reservist that the had to go back to duty and passing out big doses of penicillin for what ailed em! BTW the officers quarters were only slightly less delapidated than the enlisted digs. We did however get AC for the med clinic. One of those don't ask, don't tell arraingements.

Dennis Muldrew <>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 01:07:19 (ZULU)

Evening Gents,

Robert: That is hands down the funniest thing I have read in quite some time. If the rest are like that, take up all the bandwith you want. DSL can handle it...

Brian: I've spent a ridiculous amount of time in a wetsuit. I cant even take a piss in one, much less pitch a loaf. The "Olympics" necessary to get into and out of a wetsuit are worth not doing that to oneself. eeeyyyaaagggghhhh. Cant even picture it. Hope the ducks were worth it to your friend. The Boss told me this one the other day...

What will a Cajun eat?

1. Anything with 2 legs thats not a person

2. Anything with 4 legs thats not a table

3. ANYTHING that lives in the water

I believe we would fry mosquitos if we could figure out a way to filet them.

Bolt: I'm sympathetic. I was in Norfolk in '96. Probably the best thing I learned about that snow-stuff was stay away from snow covered curbs. Old Dominions curbs gently sloped towards the road. Add a few inches of the cold, wet, fluffy stuff, and an invincible 21 yr old from Manchac Swamp and you get disaster in the form of said invincible Cajun-Machinist Mate 3rd class shooting out into the street. Kinda looked like going down a waterslide into oncoming traffic. All said and done, I'm happy to be back by the Swamp.

On another note, Is there such a thing as a Simunition .308 training round? If so, do they require modifications?

Chase Temple <>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 01:45:09 (ZULU)

Hey Robert H, and John...

If you're gonna paste junk you get in e-mails to the Roster... PLEASE clean it up, and take the dead space  and ">>s" out so it doesn't look like shit, and take up 10 screens worth of space... P-L-E-A-S-E!!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:17:28 (ZULU)

Jerry S.  Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Grasshopper: That was great that you let that guy use your rifle.I scored his target and he shot exellent for a first timer, hopefully he is hooked . But why did you steer him away from a PSS? Mine shoots better than I do and my partner won the match that day with a PSS, with a score of 302. Just curious   Dan H.

Dan H. <>
chico , Ca, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:24:50 (ZULU)

OK.  Stoopid novice question.  Again.

Ordered a stock from Bell and Carlson for a Sako Forester.  Sent it back, for quality reasons not worth describing.  The replacement was bad, but not AS bad.  (The action and bottom metal alignment on the second stock were so far off that the action screws would not even thread into the holes.)  Fixed that problem with a dremel tool (on the stock).

Going to bed it, if only to fill in big gaps.  Figure first the action, then the bottom guard, then the barrell, in three separate steps.  (Need to raise the guard - it is too deep.)

Question:  Is there a better, easier to work with bedding compound than the Brownell's Accu-Glass, which is all I have ever used?  I have read here about marine-tex or something.  Is this a 2-part epoxy?  Looking for something simple that I can use in steps. With the Accu-Glass, it is an all-at-once thing, and I will have to buy three kits.

Thanks for any suggestion.  If this is too simple for this list, private e-mail is fine and much appreciated.  Don't want to bore (boor) anyone.  Thanks.  

P. M. Hayden <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 04:01:31 (ZULU)

Dang guys, I get sent away to in-service training and miss all the fun, you guys have a spirited discussion on pistols, and the boys here at home  got to go out and play without me. Two BG's in jail and one less Meth lab out here in the boonies.

Brian - have you ever had that bad-assed pepper spray fail ya. A few years ago I arrested a guy for shoplifting and assaulting the store manager who tried to stop him. Well, he didn't take to kindly to being arrested and started to resist, alot, if you know what I mean. We had just finished the training and had been issued our new shiny cans of pepper so I figured I'd give it a try in the real world. (hell, it made me cry like a friggen baby when they sprayed me in training.) I sprayed this guy until his face was orange, he licked it off of his lips and said that it tasted pretty good. Never did have an effect on him, I had to do it the old fashioned way but finally got him cuffed. Used it a number of times since then and it has worked great, but that first time was the shits.

Color-coded Conditions: Our team was called out, looking for two guys who had burned down an apartment complex that was under construction, then bragged about doing it as well as how many of us hick town cops they would take out if we tried to arrest them. We knew they were in a second floor apt. in another complex. I was the first one in the building and as I waited for the rest of the team to group behind me the BG's came down the stairs and into the hallway. I went to my knees, whipped up the AR-15 and yelled "freeze" as the guy behind me brought his shotgun into play. They both reached for the ceiling yelling "please don't shoot", it was then that I noticed that the one on the left had a dark stain on the front of his pants and a puddle forming on the floor. Would that be considered condition "yellow"? :) :)

Sorry for the bandwidth guys.

Ya'll Take Care!

Rob Opp  

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 09:04:55 (ZULU)

Ken M.

Emailed ya re: match. N/A.

Chase T.

.308 simunition...OUCH! Those ain't paintballs my man.


Wisconsin sounds friendly 'nuff. One of us is gonna have to get a nickname.

Chris, email. N/A


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 09:45:13 (ZULU)

 This one is for any one of you guys. The question is, How do I maintain or should I say temporary clean bottom side of my free floating barrel without having to take the stick apart for a major maintenance ? I would appreciate any pointers.

 On a none related note, did anyone hear about the new sniper movie "Sniper 2" primier on 28 Dec 02. on Cinemax? Not important, just viewing :)




Eduardo Cotto <>
Bay, Michigan, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 10:09:31 (ZULU)


If I suspect there's junk in the channel I take a business card and slide it under the barrel in front of the recoil jug/barrel pad and pull it out toward the muzzle.  If I think I'm going to get it filled,. I'll take a piece of 550 cord gut and slip it in before leaving the truck.  Then when I get to where I need to be I just grab it and pull it out the front and it's clear.  

The second tip learned right here,  thanks Undude.

Bell and Carson,

I'm hearing that Remington has switched over to Bell and Carson stocks for the VS models.  Can anyone confirm that?  That would seriously harm their worth IMHO,, as the B&C isn't even worth as much as a trade in.  Not saying they are POS stocks,, but not as good as HS IMHO.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:26:11 (ZULU)


Yep.  OC don't always work. Specially some Cajuns, they use it for pasta topping.

Here in Southeast WI, a couple years ago, a local State Trooper was in a car chase with an armed bank robber, shots had been fired at the scene. Chase ended with a crash at a north IL toll both. Trooper got out to go on foot chase. BG stopped, wanted to fight, no gun in sight. Trooper got out his new shiney can-o-spray and let BG have a face full. Hmm, nothing, a fight was on. Turns out he too had just come back from OC training, ended up with a can of INERT training spray. Way Bad juju.  Anaway, the BG fights him, lands a Mike Tyson straight to the face, concussion results, Trooper gets a bear hold cause he can't see past all the stars & birdies floatin round his head. Suddenly the BG reaches over his shoulder blasting with a gun.  You guessed it, the troopers gun. Murphy was there for both as the first round fired by BG was to his own head. Lucky for Trooper, his head was at BG's right shoulder, BG shot over, or tried to, his left shoulder. BG went to dirt like a sac-o-spuds. Trooper, still dazed and bleeding, was wondering where BG got a gun till he went for his holster. Oh crap!  At least it ended ok.  Damned folks at Trooper training station had issued a few folks some of the inert stuff I heard.

Kinda like .308 simmunitions,  NO WAY. Surely would still be potentially lethal.


Doug Bourdo <>
K town, WI, US of Good ole A - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:30:16 (ZULU)

Dang it 'Lito, how come you always gots to bust my bubble? He,he.

Did I get a passing grade on my correction? Now it'll take all day to get my brain back in order. (or is that disorder.)


John <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:39:37 (ZULU)


Was the first one such a triumph?

All pepper spray would do to my wife is give her a hankerin' for crab claws, lemon grass and a side of jasmine rice.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:20:05 (ZULU)

 Thanks to all you guys who offered directions to Camp McCoy!! I actually found it on the map.

Bell&Carlson stocks...

 My brother bought one for his Sako and he couldn't even get the action screws in it. If you turned it upside down and looked down it, it looked like a bow instead of a rifle stock.

Pat <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:29:06 (ZULU)

P. M. Hayden...

Accra-glsss is probably the worst I have ever used.  Marine Tex is very good, as is Microbed.  Micro-bed can be mixed in as small a quanity you want.  Also Brownells "Steel Bed" is great, and can also be mixed in whatever amount you want.  Make sure you use a good release agent, or you will be an unhappy camper (read the archives about a month ago :(((



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:45:15 (ZULU)

Smallpox vaccinations. Oh joy.

I remember getting mine when I was a kid. There was always somebody knocking the scab off and I felt just as bad.


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:01:51 (ZULU)

Guys anybody else make this connection, Saddum Insane says he's going to turn over the "I'm a good boy and don't have any nasty play toys" document a day earlier than it is required. It is suppose to be in on Dec. 8th. But he's giving it up on DECEMBER 7TH!!!! Ummmmm????


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:15:13 (ZULU)

Krauthammer's take on denying rogue regiemes WMDs.  This is very good.

To all you operational guys:  It may be getting close to party time.  Good luck.

Bedding kits:  Natural Kiwi shoe polish works great for release agent.  

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:28:57 (ZULU)

Sarge...Ref Dec 7th.

Last time, we weren't ready. Would you hit Mike Tyson in the face while he was looking you in the eye saying "move and I'm gonna eat your ear!"?

medicjim <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:54:31 (ZULU)

Sniper 2, is Berringer's attempt to make up for Sniper.  He hired some 8541 instructors to work with and coach him.  He wanted this one right.  You should not see any BS gear. You might even see a sling or two that you recognize.LOL


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:57:04 (ZULU)

Bruce R.

I got the plates and stickers yesterday afternoon.  Very nice, thanks.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:03:07 (ZULU)

Bell and Carlson bites the big weenie.

Remington dumped HS for a year or two (trying to go the cheaper route) went to BC and have since gone back to HS (for the VS, P and LTR models anyway). That was the last time I talked to Janice ? at HS Prec. Nice lady. Call. She'll give you the run down. Knows her shit.

Only way to tell the difference in the stocks is the trademark stamp on the bedding block inside, under the action. I sent all this to Snipersonline earlier this year after researching it but tossed the notes like a dumbass. Guess I ought to call her back.

It came up because on the B/C stocks, the swivel studs are threaded into the glass only, not the strength of the bedding block like the HSs are. That's why MC M puts a big T Nut or a big piece of steel in theirs to screw into IF YOU ASK FOR IT.

DOUGY: I swore to myself a long time ago not to judge another man until I had looked thru his scope. I have had it done to me and it too, bites the big weenie.

That said ... and correct me if I am missing something but ...

The cops got an ARMED ROBBERY (A Felony crime) with shots fired ? They stop the BG and ... ARE GOING TO USE MACE ??????????????????

Oh no, not here. Not initially anyway.

If that's all there is to it and there aren't any circumstances we don't know about (there usually is). That Trooper is damn lucky he didn't get his stupid ass killed.

I know State Police in a lot of places breed that "I shall fear no evil, baddest guy in the valley creedo" That is because they are often one man, far from back up and they don't want to teach them to QUIT when it gets dark and scary.

But the problem with that is, if you believe it too much, that's exactly where you will be walking.

Macho shit aside, ya gotta work smart. Always somebody badder'n you.

I'm preaching to the choir.

I have BSd my way out of more ass kickings than I can remember but then ... I know you guys find that hard to believe. heh heh

Tha brings up a good question.

Is BS a Martial Art ?

'Cause if it is, I think I am a Jedi.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:26:56 (ZULU)

The only thing wrong with the San Andreas Fault hasn't finished it's job and let San Francisco slide into the ocean (maybe with the rest of the state)... Why the hell San Francisco's Federal district court has jurisdiction over nine western states beats the hell outa me... that's like putting Pee-Wee Herman in charge of the NFL!!

This is the battle that we have wanted (and feared) for 65 years.  We will either win real big, or our future as gun owners is doomed :(((

GO here:


Sniper II... in spite of many (and I do mean M-A-N-Y) flaws with the orginal "Sniper", I enjoyed it much more than "Enemy at the Gates", which I never even botherd to watch the ending... it sucked!

Hope Sniper-II corrects the errors, and keeps the good stuff.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:38:43 (ZULU)

Macintosh junkies...

I gots a problem :((

With my 9600, I had a hard crash, and it wouldn't re-start.  I hooked up an emergency drive to boot on, and when booted, the main hard drive is now "Locked" (little lock icon on the top left of the window when I open the drive).

I can open the main drive window and click on stuff and some of it will open.  Some of the programs will work if they don't need to access preferences or other things, cuz EVERYTHING in the drive is locked (can't be written to or moved).

I want to drag my files out to another (new, larger) drive, but it won't allow me to copy out my files... I can't drag anything out of the drive, can't copy anything out, I can't move anything in or out of it, and it won't boot cuz all the operating systen files are also locked... does anyone know how to unlock a locked hard-drive??

I tried Norton Disk Doctor, plus Lacie Silver, and other disk tools, and they all say the disk is looked (Duh!), but don't have a tool to unlock it.




CatShooter <>
Winter is here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:55:36 (ZULU)

Brian-  If you mean Janet at HS Precision you are too late.  If we are thinking of the same person you are right about her knowing her stuff.  I'm not sure what has been going on at HS for the past year but several good people have left , JR and Janet being just two of them .  I asked Jenet about some of the earlier departures and she gave me the party line.  I have two of their rifles ,both "shoot" beyond expectations( thanks JR) but both had little problems that I wouldn't have expected.  The most recent rifle was delivered with a bolt release that would bind on the stock ,so the first time I worked the bolt it came out in my hand.  Rather than send it back , which is what they suggested, I fixed it myself.


rod hansen <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:56:49 (ZULU)


Janet is no more at H-S... they gave her the boot :((



CatShooter <>
Winter is here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:58:15 (ZULU)

"Is BS a Martial Art ?"

Around here it is.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:00:22 (ZULU)

WOW. I wasnt expecting answers using caps. Maybe I should have found cover after that one. I guess everybody needs a little calibration once in a while. Let me try to clarify...

I am the "BG" for the local swat team and get to use 9mm Simunitions on a decently regular basis. 9mm is fine and as long as the required PPE is worn(I wear the helmet w/ goggles, throat protector, cup, lvl 3 vest, and gloves, longsleeves, etc)they dont hurt all that much.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of a "dumbed down" version for .308. Something with significantly less velocity than FED GMM. Maybe more like the velocities found with the 9mm or .40 simunitions. Just enough to get it out the barrell and have a comparable range to the pistol calibers or perhaps a bit farther. It might just be wishful thinking on my part as accuracy can be questionable and including the shooters position within the designated and sanitized safety area could be difficult to maintain. It takes two physical searches, empty pockets, and a metal detector search to get inside our areas. Once inside, you cannot leave.

We'll call this one my fault, as I should have been more clear with what I was asking. As always, any input is greatly appreciated.

Chase Temple <>
Hammond, LA, 70403 - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:09:14 (ZULU)

aye, confirmed:

Janet Thompson, not Janice, is no longer at HS Precision.  She's a good ol' gal, we still keep in touch, and youse guys are reeeeeaaaalllly gonna miss her if you have to call up HS..  Just keep this as a mental note, or write it down, if you have a technical question for HS, ask for Doug, accept no one else..  Only one left with a clue..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:17:48 (ZULU)

Undude -

Speer 30cal 190gr match: bc=0.54 (per Speer manual #12, printed 98)

danny mull <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:30:28 (ZULU)


subj: GA SC Duty Roster Rifles

I just got back from a Trip to Wisconsin. I took a tour of Rock Creek Barrels facility.

Mike Rock broke out the "White Carpet" for me. About 2 inches of snow.

I have never seen anyone who loves there job more than Mike. Upon entering his shop. I saw medium sized shop filled to the brim with all types of barrel making equipment. The first thing Mike showed me was the barrels he is making for George for the Roster Rifles. I fondled just about all of them...Bet you guys are Jealous now.

Mike then asks me what the barrel is that I ordered. I informed him it was a 308 cal for a 300Win Mag 1:10. He grabs a blank and starts a lecture on the procedures of drilling, contouring, fluting, rifleing of the barrels. During this time we are building my Barrel. He has his shop set up. So he starts one proceduce on one blank, moves to the next tooling machine, starts another and so on. When he gets a couple going. He goes back to the first just as it is finishing. Knowing the exact timing of each procedure.

Mike is an awesome guy who absolutely loves what he does, including teaching why things are done.  I didnt have much time in the shop. I regretted that I had a plane to catch. But I learned alot and came away with an better understanding of barrel manufacturing and made a good friend.

There is know doubt in my mind why George uses Mikes barrels.

PS. Mike has a few new products/patents that will be anounced at the next Shot Show. All I can say is, Its a good time to be in Special Forces.


bryan <>
CA, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:30:52 (ZULU)

10-4 on Janet being gone. A big loss for them in my book, she asked me for a recomendation letter and I wrote her a nice one. She was a class act in my book.


 I would like to get a stock repainted out to H&S with the sand and spinich camo color to match my others. Who should I talk to about this would Doug be a go to guy for this??? Thanks!!

Pat <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:36:55 (ZULU)

Re: Tom Beringer

Sniper 2!  Ha ha.  What I'd really like to see is him playing Bob the Nailer in a film version of Point of Impact.

Alex Tham <>
Diamond Bar, CA, US - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:40:36 (ZULU)

Urinating in a wet suit....ah, that sure does bring back the memories. Kinda like working for the SAPD, you get a warm feeling all over, but nobody notices.  It all depends on the depth at which you try to do it.  At Dreager depths, no sweat, it just kinda happens when you feel the urge.  Regular scuba, you gotta really want it to happen, as you hafta equal the water pressure, and anything over 2 atmospheres requires some effort.  3 atmospheres, forget it, and any solid waste has to stay where it's at, 'cuz you really DON'T want to open yer sphincter when yer that deep.....unless you like being reminded of Granny's remedy for constipation.  If my foggy memory serves me correctly, pucker factor prevents that, anyway.

They say we have to carry an intermedate weapon here for the SAPD, but have this dimwitted rule that you have to have it used on you, first, before you can carry it.  So, they want me to get sprayed in the face before I can have pepper spray.  Now, I may be from South Carolina, but I do have the capability to learn from others.  I didn't let them shoot me before they gave me a pistol, and I'm not dumb enough to let someone rub a couple hundred jalapenos in my eyes for the privilege of carrying a can of superheated hairspray.  Ever spit out the window and had it come back on ya? (if yer from Texas, you know what I mean)  Now, if it hurts the peckerwood, it can hurt me.  But I ain't never had a 36" piece of hickory bounce back on me whilst I was applyin' it to some dirtbag's melon....keep yer pepper spray.

CDC.....Thanks.  I was just wanting to know so's I'd know where to go when I shoot this one out.

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 17:00:29 (ZULU)


sorry, but there is no fondling allowed in a Scottish barrel shop.. that is unless your voice is about 3 octaves higher than mine in addition to a considerable cup size.  If you meet those qualifications, fondle away, but the barrelmaker gets first dibs..

Hellllooooo Nurse!

It is kinda funny that people who watch us makin barrels think we have some kind of sixth sense with these machines, so I'll leave it at that..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 18:45:08 (ZULU)


 You do, you just don't realize it!! Thanks for the info I will give them a call in a week or two.

Pat <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 19:23:44 (ZULU)


I hereby dub thee

Brian the (In)Sain - Knight of the Roster table, Holder of the Cajun Clans silver Luge tray of pie fights, and Lord Master of the art of BS......

Secret handshake!

Hi Sign!!!!!!!


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 20:14:33 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

I just spoke to H-S and the price for repainting a black M24 to Sand & Spinache w/spider web is now $105 plus $15 shipping, with one to two weeks turn around... I should'a sent it in Sept, when it was $95 :((  Bummer.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:24:16 (ZULU)

PETE: I'd like to thank the Academy ...

Hey guys, we hit a house for some grass. Shitter was broke in the place and they were using a full 5 gallon bucket to fill up the tank.

A bad guy had just taken a dump and was going to pour some water in the tank when the SWAT truck yanked the burglar bars off the front door. He ran and grabbed the dope and threw it in the commode but overfilled it with grass and it wouldn't flush. Spilled the bucket and water was all over the floor.

Tiny bathroom.

'bout that time a flash bang comes through the window and lands in the middle of the bathroom floor.

Can you say BOOM ?   ...  I knew you could.

He was soaking wet and covered from head to toe with shit and wet marijuana when we got to him.

"What ya'll had to go and do me that fuh ?"  he he.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:33:33 (ZULU)


yah, funny ha ha, except for the dude that has to stuff him..  I'd tow him back to the precinct, like the dog on Vacation starring Christy Brinkley and Chevy Chase...

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:58:07 (ZULU)


Am setting up a 2 day course and while I have my outline done, I would like to hear from those who have something they have run before also.

Pls email me at


Jefe <>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 22:49:09 (ZULU)

I need a little advice from you hogs. I have bought another Leupold MK4 M1 with mildot reticle  at a good price. The only thing is that this one has been painted with a camo pattern. I want to strip the paint off and get back to the original Leupold finish. Anyone out there got any suggestions as to what paint stripper to use that won't damage the original finish ? I am going to put this one on one of George Gardner's great creations......thanks

Kimbershooter <>
Disputanta, Va., - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 23:23:56 (ZULU)

I've got a friend that's looking to build a 338RUM up and neither of us can find what the max OAL of a remington or winchester magnum action is.  Is the RUM actions larger/wider than a standard LA?  I figure just the feed lips are different but am not sure so....

He's wanting a repeater that will facilitate an OAL of 3.55" with 300SMK's.

Any ideas of how long he could go if he got a 300WM for a donor?

Thanks Hawgs,, and congradulations Sir Brian of the (in)Sain, oh Exhuberant Knight of BS,, ;)))


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 23:54:43 (ZULU)

Charles S.,

I tried to e-mail you off-line, send me better e-mail address...

Byron <>
CA, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 00:32:44 (ZULU)


Use a standard paint remover, mineral spirits, and 1/2" brushes.

Use a small brushe to put remover on, let set, and use a brush with mineral spirits to wash it off... do it in small patches.  Put some on, let it set, and wash it off

Keep the gook away from the lenses, and out of the turrets.

A water soluble one is also good, just wash off the patches with hot, soapy water.  

When finished, wash the whole thing in soap and water, and let dry in the disdrainer (keep it out of the dishwasher/dryer).  Look for missed spots, and do them again if required.

It will be good as new... the black finish will not be damaged.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 00:36:17 (ZULU)


You have the dubious honor of being the first to post on Dec 7th mang....

Let us remember today, all those that lost their lives 61 years ago,, by an attack from a group of sneeky bastards.... and let us now be vigilant in whipping the new lot of sneeky bastard off the face of the earth.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 00:47:22 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito,

I won the thing on ebay with a 700.00 bid so the little work involved is worth it. Do you know if Premier or Leupold can (will) convert it to a M3?

Kimbershooter <>
Disputanta, Va., - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:07:11 (ZULU)


Well, all I can say is unlike other events that have occured on this date, mine was not planned.  It was spure of the moment trying to pass on some insight to Charles' dilemma over OC.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:09:33 (ZULU)


Nope... can't be converted to an M3.  But it is a good scope as it it.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:23:06 (ZULU)


THE BC for the Speer 190 Gr match is .540 Sec Den is 286

See Loadbooks 1990 Ed for the 308 Win Page 24.

The Sierra 190 Gr Match lists the BC as .610  Sec Den is also 286.

I checked my old reloading books including gthe 1970 issued of Spper and the loadbook in 308 Win is the onl one that listed the 190  lots of info on the 180s

Hope this help.

Bomac <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:28:58 (ZULU)

In-Sain, congrats, buddy!  peteR annointed me with the "Sinister" moniker and I like it.

Jim in Joisey, the Swede I was looking for (with the plastic ball at the end of the turned-down bolt handle but without the off-hand section added to the stock belly):

Paul, try the forums at  Lotsa Mac-smart folks there (somebody may have the answer).  Hope it wasn't the RAID that locked up.

Charles, you only have to get pepper-sprayed once (and it'll blow dead bears for about four hours) -- man is that a handy weapon.

Sinister Dave <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:36:45 (ZULU)


and unlike the attack in 41,, you're input will likely be very well received.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:40:01 (ZULU)

Please read the entire message before reading the signature because:

The best part is the signature!!

                               SEMPER FI:  01

                               FROGS:      00

(This is a treasure)

A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):

A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he thought we(Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to provoke a war.   He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn't be able to count on the support of France.

I told him that it didn't surprise me.   Since we had come to France's rescue in World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was due to surface at some point in the near future anyway. That is why France is a third-rate military power with a socialist economy and a bunch of faggots for soldiers.

I additionally told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words, would do whatever it had to do, and France's support was only for show anyway.   Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the burden, as evidenced by the fact that the French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the other way around.

He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the Burger King and beat his ass in front of the entire Multi-National Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had more fight in him than the average Frenchman.

He called me a barbarian cowboy and walked away in a huff.

With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Mary Beth Johnson LtCol, USMC


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:32:23 (ZULU)

JR:  The last of their breeding stock was lost at Verdun.  That little popcorn fart country has a veto in the UN Security Council.  What a joke.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:39:46 (ZULU)

JR, I think I met Mary Beth, this soldier was Army. Anyway, guy I worked for had rental property. We were renovating after a tenet skipped out owing money. Seems the X tenet left his military dress uniform behind. He returned to try and get them when we were there....called my boss a stupid SB, fistacuff erupted with said X tenet getting a good arse woopin by a guy 30 years his senior. X tenet claimed old guy was in trouble now because he was going to return with his commanding officer. Commanding officer returns with him and listens to "old guys" version of what happened. C.O. asks me if the story was accurate. Upon hearing that it was SHE turns to young soldier and tells him that she would have kicked his arse too under the circumstances, then asked my boss to return the "Greens" as they were gov't property. Also assured him that he would get every penny he was due for rent.

Louis <>
Floyds Knobs, In, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:49:15 (ZULU)

>>>>>> With friends like these, who needs enemies? <<<<<

Since I haven't kept up with the news lately and with the thought of an Iraqi war looming, I was just wondering if the French had surrendered yet?


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:49:19 (ZULU)


We hit an apartment a couple mornings ago, Heroin dealer, recently released from an IL prison, parole for homicide, bragged to all his cohorts how he would NEVER go back to prison. Seems he & another piece o crap did an armed home invasion on an older couple in town. Local POlice & Gang unit worked up a warrant. We did a no-knock about O-Dark thirty. I was outside doing the sniper/perimeter thing at the only window, with my M4 config. Heard the team breach, then the entry team leader calls, "He 'moused' up." That meant he burrowed right inside the wall where I was standing.  Turns out ole Willie Bad Ass crawled under the bed as soon as he heard his door gettin hit.  He thought it was OTHER drug dealers coming to kill him.  Left his woman & kid out for bait.  What a pussy that bad guy. Ya jus never know.  Bought the wife a rem 700VSS tonight in 22-250. Told her it was an early Xmas present. Like the Love of my life, she says, "If you want another rifle, just buy it. You don't have to make some story for me." I am one lucky man.  No new(renewed) thread intended.


Doug Bourdo <>
K town, WI, US of good ole A - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:55:02 (ZULU)

Thanks guys for the info on the BC for the Speer 190's. The .540 is probably a little high as my experience with Speers versus Sierra is the Speers were always slight lower BC (by a smidge) That BC info on the Sierra 190's seems high to me.  If memory serves me its more like an average of .533 or so.  That  .610 is higher than I remember.

Litto, heck you can make a stock any color for a few dollars and change it for a few dollars more. Krylon is magic.

Ken If I am in country I will do all I can to attend.  Waiting to hear where I will be.


MikeMIller <>
CA, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:59:48 (ZULU)


Thanks for the heads up on MacGurus.  Last time I was there (about 1 1/2 years ago) they didn't have forums.  That where I got my RAID board, and some other VLD parts and stuff.

Now they gots forums, and don't sell stuff... go figure?

Anyway... it wasn't the RAID, it was my main drive that went and locked itself, so I asked over there... looking at the forums, there are some heavy hitters and smart puppies over there... (MacCountry? HA!).



Hell, I can slobber paint on it just as bad as any other fool, but I want the Sand & Spinache w/spider web that H-S has... it'll match my 300WM.  Kinda like "Bobbsy Twins".



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:37:45 (ZULU)


190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (2100 fps +)    0.533

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (1600-2100 fps)  0.525

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (1600 fps -))    0.515

Got an Excel spreadsheet with info on most .308's

Lemme know if you want a copy.


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:52:58 (ZULU)

So is it Sir Brian or Lord Master Brian ?

We got a Sir Wesley already. Either way, I'm honored.

Personally, I think I like Sir. Hard to beat company like Wes.

Hawgette my ass 'lito. HA ! Double Ha ! Thanks Pete !

Hit 'em for 18 hrs today. Santy Claus is comin' ...

I think I want a Bill Bagwell Bowie.

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:09:20 (ZULU)

Hey you Yahoos!!!!

I'm in sunny Yokusuka Japan teaching the US Navy to fight and repell boarders and shit.  Its fricking cold and wet and I live a hotel room smaller than the walkin closet in my hacienda in Alabama.

I'll be posting here infrequently as the navy compooter we have in the orofice doesnt have Java enabled on it so I cant post so am at the base library fighting little brats for access to a compooter.

Its Dec 7th here in Japan.  Watched Pearl harbor on Japanese TV last night.  Jap sub titles with Engrish then when the Japanese talk in Jap...NO SUBTITLES!  Hey WTF!  ANyway, nobody is recognising the day over here which is funny being on a Navy base.

We had some IEDs lobbed at Camp Zama, the army base North of here a few weeks ago by a home made Mortar.  I guess the badguys are partial to them over here. No one hurt and the projectiles didnt 'splode.  We are waiting to see what happens re: Saddam.  Things might get exciting round hyar.


ANyway, ya'll stay loose and be thankful you are in the good ole USA.  Like they say, you dont really appriciate it till you go out of conus.

Out here.

Pirate 1st Class Gooch

Gooch <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 07:01:51 (ZULU)

JR- Thanks for confirming that it was Janet, not Janice, at HS Precision.  After nearly 4 years and dozens and dozens of phone calls I would hate to have been using the wrong name.


rod hansen <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:09:10 (ZULU)

hopefully this won't start a "Virus Country" thread...

Some of the newer viri use email addresses harvested on a computer or from the Internet and use them as *forged* return addresses to send them to some of the other harvested addresses.  For the semi-technically inclined among you, you can check the incoming message headers for where it was actually sent from, as opposed to what the stamped return address says.

Kind of like getting a letter with a return address of "Nome, Alaska" with a NYC,NY postmark.  Someone is playing fast and loose with the "rules".

Rod Regier <>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:17:03 (ZULU)

"So is it Sir Brian or Lord Master Brian ?"

Its "Crawfish eatin' coonass" and don't get uppity.

(Smiley face here.  I don't want him flying his 275 lb girl-friend up here to kick my ass.)

"I think I want a Bill Bagwell Bowie."

You won't be getting a new knife.  You're getting a new power.  You may want to hold off making a decision until you check out John Smith's current work.  It's amazing.  Jerry Fisk's and Jim Crowell's too.  Crowell's is my favorite of the lot.

The Federal Gubment recently declared Jerry a national treasure or a historical landmark or something.  All I know is, he is a Hell of a nice guy who builds a Hell of a good knife.  

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:45:12 (ZULU)


I saw that same post sent to me by a Marine friend.  What are the two words the French can never say????

............  " WE WON !" .............................HA!!!

Jim Abbott <>
Flower Mound, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:56:04 (ZULU)


You Got Mail Re a Lefty Remmy 700 VS in .308 for sale.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 14:45:05 (ZULU)


Is there a problem with Crawfish eating??????????????????

Juuuust kidding! Damn you really do have a "Bowie Blade Fetish" by the names listed thar.

 Had some Chipotle pepper laced CHILE for lunch yesterday, (28 WS /30 F at work) and thought maybe some Jambalaya, and a BIG ASS plate of mudbugs might be good tonight...............

be back soon

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 15:20:21 (ZULU)

Lord (In)Sain,

Shades of the Alamo, you gots to go outside of Texas to get a decent Bowie? ;)))))


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 16:24:53 (ZULU)


Take care and SEMPER-FI!

And watch your "SIX" around them swabbies... ;o)

(Just kiddin', Squids.)


Dennis <>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:07:23 (ZULU)

Received my new, slightly used Winchester M70 Classic Featherweight in 6.5x55 today.  Thanks 'lito, but ya guessed wrong, it's a long action.  Anybody want to buy a Badger base for a Win. short action cheap?


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:19:21 (ZULU)

I'll be runnin' up the Colors here pretty quick (Before I set up the tree and Christmas lights-  wierd, eh?) in memory of Dec. 7.

Wonder how many flags I'll see flyin' today.

I actually did my retirement ceremony on the Arizona Memorial back in '91.  Lt. General Milligan, FMFPAC, did the honors. Solemn, bitter-sweet.  Gave a special salute to the Marines and Sailors who reside there.

Used to have "ship-Over" ceremonies out there, too.  

Sorry for the "memories"...

I'll be tippin' a coupla "Jacks" tonight for those that have gone before, those that are, and those that will.

Take care studs.  (and that means you hard-core ladies, too.)


Dennis <>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:24:57 (ZULU)

Byron: I replied to your mail off-line of the DR, so I wouldn't have to eat up space here.  Suffice it to say, I have NO misconceptions about OC spray.  It's not always effective, but has been touted as some kind of "wonder spray" that will take down the baddest of the bad. Sheesh.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  And to insist that new recruits get sprayed in the face so they can look at a judge and say "daddy, I know it would hurt, so I had to do it" is not now, and never has been, legally necessary.  Now, in dealing with countless numbers of dopers, crackheads, sprayheads, heroin addicts, drunks and just plain old icky mean people, I've never run across one that didn't respond to the swift application of a hard object to the side of the head, just below the ear.  Scrambles the switchboard just long enough to get an edge.  I HAVE seen a stone cold sober man stand there and say "Yer pissing me off!" when getting sprayed dead in the face with that stuff.  So, keep it, and I'll keep my asp and my "woody".  Part of the problem is the growing tendency to rely on new gimmicks to replace old-fashioned gumption.  If we spray 'em, we won't have to rassle with 'em, mentality.  Administrators and accountants are beginning to lise sight of the fact that sometimes, ya just gotta dance with the ugly folk.

Howas rule.

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:48:28 (ZULU)

re: Point of Impact / Bob the Nailer as a movie

retitled "Shooter" last ref I saw (probably because there is a 1993 movie already called Point of Impact - darn!)  They'll probably change the title again because there is a movie produced in 2000 that is titled "Shooter".

Last info I saw had Keanu Reeves cast as the lead. Kind of young to play a character that had served in Vietnam and then was a civilian for a number of years afterwards. That would make the character 30++.

(I don't feel like digging out the book to fine-tune the chronology). Of course, by the time they get around to making the movie, he could be old enough to be believable.   Keanu was born in 1964.  Liked him in The Matrix.

My choice would have been Tommy Lee Jones, but he's starting to get a bit old for the role. He was born in 1946. (No aspersion on you mature guys - I'm starting to get into that territory myself.)

Rod Regier <>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 18:31:10 (ZULU)

Get home from Edinburgh, pour myself a muckle dram of fine single malt, log on, double tap SC DR, and I see:

Lord Brian?  Lord Master Brian????  

sheesh, give a Texan an inch....more like 'court jester'(kinda rhymes), ya clown shoe...  haaa...


good luck over there...


no problemo dude, I'll try to swing thru Pierre if I decide to head out to Rapid for a day or two..

later aye, lassies on the menu tonite....


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 19:00:08 (ZULU)

Ok M3LR question, I use the 175SMK over 44 gr of Varget with Lapua brass and Fed GM210M primers chronographed at an avg of 2600fps.    Using the .30-06 cam I KNOW the fps is a bit slow. 100 yd groups are sub-minute even the 200 yd groups hold sub-minute when I do my part. Now the question, at 300 yds dialing the cam to "3" I shoot 3" high of POA. Taking it down 1 click lowers the POI 3" below POA! Going 1/2 click doesn't help. Suggestions? Am I going to have to do somemore load testing to get the fps up to 2685 or is it 2680?


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 19:58:56 (ZULU)

MARK: I like Bagwells knives. He's in Tejas.

JR: Watch them lassies assies. I think Scottish chicks would dig me.

ALL: One of Rich Johnsons Snipers got shot last night. He's okay. BG shot him in the arm with a .44 mag. BG shot 3-4 times. Damn dope warrant.

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:19:13 (ZULU)

"Mucle dram?"

What the Hell?

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:29:40 (ZULU)

Yeah, Dan I was just gonna let it go.

I just figured he was ALREADY crying assed drunk and said he was missing Uncle Sam ???? Mucle dram ?

Speak bloody English laddy.

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:42:24 (ZULU)

>>>>Get home from Edinburgh, pour myself a muckle dram of fine single malt, log on, double tap SC DR, and I see:

Lord Brian?  Lord Master Brian????

sheesh, give a Texan an inch....more like 'court jester'(kinda rhymes), ya clown shoe...  haaa...<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Try to show a coon ass some respect and look where it gets me ;)))))

BTW JR, for a single malt does Glenlivet get the nod in old Scotland? Muckle dram?


>>>>>MARK: I like Bagwells knives. He's in Tejas.<<<<<<<

Hmmm. My mistake. Got a web site? **edit note. I sure like this edit thingy.** That's not the same Bill Bagwell that used to sell 1874 Sharps Rifles is it? Surely not.**



HOW much for the Winchester Badger base? Contact offline if you like. I'm really looking for a level base for a Winnie 70 HBV though. Now if I could just find a used set of standard 30mm Badger Rings.


December 7, 1941. Less we forget.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:54:59 (ZULU)

  Old Vet:

  Still looking for the best caliber for my mauser action (vz24)

  action is really nice. in the white,smooth rails,matching bolt,it

  is as slick a baby's behind. is it to be 6.5x55,7.08, 7.06, 308

  or 280. need help here, so speak out ,i'm all ears. i will be

  reloading my own.  


  looked at two stocks,Wenig's lam. tac. & Richard's Microfit lam.



                  old vet,out

 it's bad out there, you guys all come home safe.

South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 21:42:33 (ZULU)

What's the rifle for?

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 22:26:22 (ZULU)


      have family (sisters,brother) out in eastern Oregon

near a John Day River and Umatilla Nat. Forst. ranch

total ac. 19k. we shoot from 3800ft.-4600ft alt. most of ranch

is 3600ft. up. goats ,elk, chuckers,steers,wild horses. big cats

coytoes. we have set sites and target stands from 100yds to 1200yds

one problem we shoot a little down hill, not more then 12deg.on

a level. been shooting M1 Garand, M1A1,Savage110.06,out to 600yds

want to crank it up and get out to 800yds+.

               old vet

cut the BG no slack, and come home safe

South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 02:17:27 (ZULU)

Dennis (SPUD), where did you get your bumper sticker "got mildot?"


Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:31:00 (ZULU)

"...goats,elk, chuckers, steers, wild horses, big cats, coytoes..."

.280 is the only one on your list that is good for elk.  Use the 175 Nosler partitions.  .30-06 is better yet.  I've never shot a horse but I've been sorely tempted.  

"...want to crank it up and get out to 800yds+..."

You can hit at that range, but you can't get clean kills.  

If you shoot more of the bigger stuff, the .30-06 is better.  If you shoot more of the smaller stuff, I'd go the .280.  

I prefer shooting the .280.

That sounds like a very nice place.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:54:57 (ZULU)


Charlie Shoesmith <>
Lee's Summit, MO, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 05:14:43 (ZULU)

Good Morning all, hah,

A little English-English translation needed, eh?

ok, a muckle means a lot of, much, great, large.  We call Langholm here 'Muckletoon' or 'big city'.  Not to be confused with muck, or 'mucky', which basically means crap.  A dram is a measure of whiskey, I'm not sure exactly how much is in a dram, but it's loosely used here for a 'shot'.  So, a 'muckle dram' can mean a large measure of whiskey.  Sometimes confused with a 'muckle beast', which is a whole new ballgame.  Pete from Yorkshire may be able to clear this up, sometimes it's tough gettin thru these Borders dialects and getting clear definitions, words and phrases mean different things in your different villages..  You'd think the Highland dialect would be the toughest to understand, nope, unless they speak Gaelic, their English is good.  Hawick, here in the Borders about 25 miles from me, has to be use of the most bastardised excuses for english that I have heard to date, beats Glaswegian by a mile..  I think they just make shit up to confuse me..  I do have to say that was the oddest feeling when I got here, they(Scots) understand everything you say(cuz it's perfect English), and you know that what they speak is supposed to be some form of english, but nope, nothin registers, not even in the 'I get the drift' sense.  So youse drink a muckle a whiskey, and it all becomes more clear by the end of the night...

I could type in Geordie English....  Aa's nee gannin theor...

Glenlivet is top notch single malt.  My personal favorite is Glenmorangie (Glen of Tranquility), all good stuff, can't go wrong with single malt..  

Nivvor ower de it

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 06:53:20 (ZULU)


Bruce Robinson is selling the mildot front licence plates and the sticker together I think.

Speaking of Bruce,, where ya been mang?  PeteR starts visiting again and you take a break,,,  I see how it is.... ;))

Passed on a 40X, single shot with a FAT barrel chambered out in 6x284, wood 40X stock with 4" rail etc, etc,,, with dies and all yesterday for $800.  It had a neat trigger,, factory adjustable BR trigger, adjustable kinda like a Jewell,, through the shoe.  I learn something new each day at the gunshow,, but most of the time it's others miss-informed, ignorant information about guns that stands out. (NOT the 40X shooter)For instance,, yesterday I learned a Jennings .380 is a top quality pistol,, and is utterly reliable.  How was I to know ;))


You never did say what "at the chinky" means.....


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 12:46:01 (ZULU)

Glenmorangie, mmmmmmmmm (insert drooling & slurping sounds)!

Dennis Muldrew <>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 14:58:16 (ZULU)


Chris, suspect "at the chinky" is something you don't want to know

Gunshows...great source of misinformation. I don't even attend most of them any more. Dealers want to much, etc.

Second showing on the house today or tomorrow. Hope it sells and we can move closer to work. I'm spending 4+ hours a day on prep time and road time. To damn much. Besides, all that gas money could go to important bullets, brass, powder, etc.

Scotch...lots of good ones JR. Sounds like you're "settling in" just fine over there. Personally, I used to be a Ripple and Seven-Up man...;-)

All for now...duty calls.

Semper Fi.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:29:07 (ZULU)

CHRIS: Was the Jennings a Target Model ?

Q: What do you call a blonde standing on her head ?

A: A brunette with bad breath.

Q: What is an open can of tuna at a lesbian party ?

A: Potpourri

Going shopping with the missus. Ya'll are smart enough to figure the MO out.

Later dudes

brian k. sain <>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:40:27 (ZULU)

HOGs, all this talk of knives makes me give up my great source for what feels to me like the best damm fighting knife I have ever used. Its Siminoch Knives

I have one of the production knives and man its beyond belief.  Old Dog sent one to me as a gift (What a nice guy) because he said I did not know what a good knife was until I tried one of these.  It handles like a small knife, but is big. Its called the "Raven Combat" from the MIdtech line.  Well I took the bad boy out and started chopping away at all kindfs of stuff. Wanted to see what it would do. I have had other knives feel good and chip, dull you name it so I was skeptical.  I started chopping firewood and plywood with it.  First swipe at some 3/4 AC exterior plywood chopped a corner about 5" off the plywood.  So I beat the hell out of this thing choppping anything I could without getting killed by the Lady Lorraine for chopping on.

I could not dull this knife and it chopped like an axe.  After I was in a sweat the knife still cutt paper like a razor.

If you are looking for a BOwie size fighting knife look here!

Darren, I get more questions around town about my "Got Mildots" sticker than anything else.


MikeMIller <>
CA, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:52:44 (ZULU)

Wes - agree with you 100% on the gunshow issue.   Items are over priced, admissions here are $8.00 and to walk around and sell something they want a table fee.  It used to be the place to go to get hard to find items or Military surplus stuff.  Now with the net these things are easily obtainable without the drive and the crowds.  Heck, the last two I have been to, we had more fun spoting the undercover ATF agents.  I quit going after an ATF set up dealer tried to sell me M-16 fire control parts when I asked about the MFG of the match triggers he had on the table at a really low price.  I was told buy the seller that the  full-auto parts he had were legal to own and no class III paperwork was required.  What do they think, people are that stupid?  Especially here in Michigan where there, by state law, is no class III period.   It's one thing to enforce the laws but to entrap people and entice them into breaking laws is abuse of authority and criminal. Especially when those who would fall for it are to stupid to know what they were being asked to buy is illegal.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:16:18 (ZULU)

CDC...Never shot a horse?

  I have had the distasteful job of putting down 3, actually 2 horses and a pony..One with 45ACP hardball, the other 2 with 245 gr. Kieth SWCs out of a 44 mag...The results are sudden and dramatic when the shot is placed behind the ear..You have to be careful of how close to the beast you are standing as they drop instantaneously.

  Buck season ended yesterday..Brock shot another, 5 point, at 4:30.  I saw nothing with horns so, the score this year was Brock 3 and the old man 1..Have a week of doe hunting left; time to gather more burger.

For those who might be interested, S&W has some 5" bbls. for older Model 29 revolvers..Call Vito at the Performance Center.  They only had 10 or so when I had my old 8 3/8s rebarrelled last month.

outa here

Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:19:05 (ZULU)

CDC...Never shot a horse?

  I have had the distasteful job of putting down 3, actually 2 horses and a pony..One with 45ACP hardball, the other 2 with 245 gr. Kieth SWCs out of a 44 mag...The results are sudden and dramatic when the shot is placed behind the ear..You have to be careful of how close to the beast you are standing as they drop instantaneously.

  Buck season ended yesterday..Brock shot another, 5 point, at 4:30.  I saw nothing with horns so, the score this year was Brock 3 and the old man 1..Have a week of doe hunting left; time to gather more burger.

For those who might be interested, S&W has some 5" bbls. for older Model 29 revolvers..Call Vito at the Performance Center.  They only had 10 or so when I had my old 8 3/8s rebarrelled last month.

outa here

Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:19:19 (ZULU)

Titan...I assume you've read Unintended Consequences, but if not, it is a must read..There was supposed to be a sequal to that book.  Anyone have any clue about that???????

outa here again; sorry for the double post.

Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:25:23 (ZULU)

Markwell -  Yeah, I read it back in 2001 when I was laid up with my knee.  It is a good read, infact I read each chapter twice just to digest it all.  The incident I mentioned above happened back in 1996, right after the crime bill was enacted.  ATF was using stings at gunshows and under cover agents mingling in the crowd just like in the book. HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM????????????????

I wonder what a sequal would be like, as the book had good closure at it's conclusion.  I would buy it though.  Look at  what the Author has gone through since he wrote the book.  The ATF even tried to set him up using his exwife, or so the story goes.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:46:47 (ZULU)

Hi all,

Just got my rifle back from George at GA Precision.  I'm sure you all are familiar with the kind of work he does.  If not, it is excellent.  

I told him I wanted it as close to USMC spec as he could get it, with the exception of the Wichita swivels.  He even had an old Unertl mount for it.  So, I guess it's as close to a real M40-A1 as you can get.  

Paul C., you still around?

Semper Fi


Steve <>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:12:56 (ZULU)

Gunsmith needed , maybe . Since i cannot find a picatinney or tapered base by any manufacturer for my steyr ssg p11 , here's the thought . What about haveing my 30 mil steyr rings machined or lapped to a 20 moa taper ? Any thoughts ?

art <>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:27:15 (ZULU)

Glenmorangie, Glenlivet, Glenfiddich, and Pigs Nose. JR, they even export that last one out of the area? Been in a few pubs there LOL. "give a Texan an inch". Yeah, that's what Santa Anna said. Next thing you know, the Mexicans lost the whole tamale. Then they had to go and ruin a good thing. But what's this bagging on the frogs? Don't you know they have the best fighter in the world, that Mirage? Insert derisive laugher here. Other than making decent food from basically rubbish, and some rather good artists quite some while ago, what do they contribute to the world? Oh yes, the best machinists and mechanics in the world. More derisive laugher.

Fatboy, Jennings is a good combat pistol. That's why they beat the the rest (S&W, Sig, Beretta, Colt, Kimber, etc) out for the pimps union official throw down contract in the big easy. You notice that their quality, reliability, and accuracy caused the demise of Raven, right?

Brian, how about "Son of Lafette". That not only sounds good, but isn't rude as well. Suppose how rude it is depends on where you're from on second thought. Anyone eats mudbugs and can outlive those birds with fangs and watermoccasins is OK in my book.

Jaeger <>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:58:18 (ZULU)


There is going to be a (hopefully) quick interruption in services on the Roster.


Marius <>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 19:21:18 (ZULU)


Hope you like the little new feature...

Marius <>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 20:33:52 (ZULU)

Goddamnit. got rammed by another kamikhazi box head in one of them new VW beetles today, on my way back from baiting the pigs. My damn van stalled at a cross roads, I put the hazzard warning lights on,got my finger stuck in the key fob and was just restarting the engine and this twit didn't see me, he was blinded by the sun. He insisted that because i had come from the road to his left, he had right of way.. yes if we had got there at the same time, but i got there at least a minute before hand. Now i'm sure that you are supposed to stop for obstructions in the road which have hazzard lights on.. no doubt he and his wife will lie and give me the blame. F@#$%^. I still aint got paid out for the last one. why oh why am i always at the wrong place/wrong time. Buggeritall I need a tank.

GW, you guys still using the Charley G? i used to like playing with the practice 6.5 (adapter sub-caliber) I seem to remember shooting a fox with one once. The Brits have a spotting round in the LAW90, i can't remenber if its 8mm or 6.5, but it was developed to be the same trajectory as the 94mm rocket, you pop away at your target with the spotter and when you hit it, swich to main, and boom..

JR, you seemed to have settled in nicely , and you seem to have fine taste in malt whiskey. The Scots dialect's are great aren't they. Glasgow sounds common as hell, but most of the rest of them are very pleasing to the ear. I spent 2 1/2 years with a Jock Infantry Bn, I gained a Scotts accent during that time. I can't stand the damn Geordie accent though, that comes from spending 2 years with a Geordie Arty Regiment, thats where i figured out why the Brits call the Arty blokes "Planks". I owe you some cash. Cheque ok?


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:00:58 (ZULU)

Hogs, good news/bad news on "Point of Impact" movie:  The bad news is that the project is on indefinite hold.  Several people are interested, but it hasn't come together yet.  The good news is Keanu Reeves is out and Tommy Lee Jones is in.  Latest details here:

Undude: How does Simonich compare to Mad Dog knives?  I have a Mako you can beat on if you want to give it a try.  They are tool steel, differentially tempered with a chrome plating.  Very tough, Louie Awerbuck turned me on to them.  I'm not crazy about the handle design, though, doesn't fit my hand very well.

What kind of response do you get to your "Got Mildots?" sticker?  All I get is "What's that mean?"  I tell them it's a shibboleth.  Then they have to ask me what that means.

Grasshopper <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:01:39 (ZULU)

Advice needed....Finally got to shoot me new piece yesterday. It requires 15" of elevation on the scope for a 100yd zero.

Does anyone know of any tricks to tell if this due to the rifle or bases or rings?

Rifle=223 PSS

Bases=Leupold STD 2-piece

Rings=Leupold STD

Scope=el cheapo 3-9x40

If this is due to bad barrel/receiver alignment, would 'blueprinting' fix it?

Lito - thanks for the earlier advice, but I would prefer to stay away from anything QD, as I've found that it tends to quickly detach at the most inappropiate moment.

Medic Jim - you hate cats? My wife has 23 of the little darlings. Breakfast time is an event in my house.

cheers guys,

Bisley Tiger

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:34:53 (ZULU)


     been a member of O.G.C.A. here in Ohio over twenty years.

been going to shows for fourty yrs. it is as bad as I have ever

seen it .ever after the 68 laws went into effect. back then, we

would set them up by going around the show. looking for M-1Car.

and thompson smg parts.they would actual try an help us with

the right parts. we acted as dumm as nose honey. right up putting our money down. then off we would go. they would dammed near run us

down, as we made our get-a-way. don't try this today , would have us

spread eagle just for messing with them.

                            onered(old vet)

South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:47:53 (ZULU)

Steve, where are you in the UK? maybe i know some one in the area who can check the rifle out for you( I like that - banned-it country, funny, but sad, pretty much sums it up don't it). Get rid of those mounts and that scope. spend a little on some decent mounts and a decent scope, and ask me before you buy, ( Jon B will testify to this) I may be able to save you some money.

Right, time for some shut eye, back at work in 7 hours. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:51:38 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln - you got mail.

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:07:34 (ZULU)

Grasshopper, are you a traveling man?

Tony B <>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:14:35 (ZULU)

Ref: G.A. Precison

About a month ago I shipped George a M700 LA to build a 6.5X.284 rifle with.  I expected to have the winter to leasurely gather together what brass, dies, bullets and what not together.  I just got an e-mail from George saying it'll be done next week.  HOLY COW!!!!  That's what I call service!!!  But now I'm way behind the power curve on the other stuff.  Oh well the first focal plane Gen II versions of the 6.5-20X Loopies won't be ready from Premier until January any way.  I get two Christmas mornings this year.....yeeeehaaaa!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:25:21 (ZULU)


     Fatboy felt the .280 was the way to go too.

     guess i'll start looking for a tube. you know

     being on a fixed income(the Eagle don't crap that much here)

     i'm looking for a really good bbl. with out ,without having to

     sell this new leg. give me the best names you know.i'll ck.

     the list i got on line. i'll just have to work on the money

     thing. Thanks, you guys a big help. learning more now about

     long range work then the whole time in service.

South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:53:18 (ZULU)

I would greatly appreciate some offline help/info from a few of you. I have decided to seriouly consider a search for a new job in a different state, but would like to know about the gun laws to help me refine my search. If you live in WV, TN, KY, VA, NC, or PA would you please send me an email off line (don't want to tie up the DR ) & fill me in on class 3, CCW, buying a long gun/pistol, cities with bans, what's legal/illegal to posses, ect. Thank you in advance for your time & help.


danny mull <>
akron, ohio, usa - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:53:38 (ZULU)

Kevin --  I wouldn't worry about being behind the power curve on getting that new stick up and running - the ASC#2  Rules Subcommittee on Rifle Caliber recently ruled that nothing smaller than 30 cal would be allowed.



rod hansen <>
Just puttin you on kevin, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 23:10:56 (ZULU)

Old Vet,

KenM decided 280AI was the way to go, not I, but I'd take his advice without reservation.  Sounds like a great all around caliber.

I'm sticking with the 6.5x284 for now.  It's a proven winner and has recoil like a 223rem.  For us recoil sensitive pussies,,, the 6.5 is the trick.

No luck at the gunshow again today.  Passed on a C serial'd 700LA ADL for $300.  Couldn't bring myself to pay more than $280.  I'm really looking for a SA anyway, so screw it....

KevinM (Andy's Dad),

;))  man,,  I can't wait for the report after your first range session.  You think you'll be able to wait for the Gen II 20X Lupita??  That M3LR will swap right over ((;  My bet,,, you'll be building another one, for your spotter, by summer.


You are one bad MoFo,,, I like the new feature.  I may start double tapping just because ;))


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 23:23:15 (ZULU)

I just got done shooting a Tupperware Match (Gloch). I will let you all know how bad I did in a month or two when the results come back. Haha. You know shooting it really wasn't all that bad. I may play with it some more next year and shoot it for real in next years match. Shooting it once a year don't really count as practice does it? I may, Dramatic puase/clear throat, put the 1911 a way for a spell and shot this thing for part of next year season.

OC spray? Call me old fashion. So I go by the old adage, You gottta dance with who brung ya. So I don't carry it either. Besides theres all way a cactus around to throw someone on.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 23:52:10 (ZULU)

Don K...

I didn't guess... Winchester's site has the 6.5x55 as a short action.

If it was an old one from years ago, you should have said so.  Some 10+ish years ago they very made limited runs of several calibers like 6.5x55 and .257 Roberts on long actions.


Bisley Tiger...

I don't know what you are talking about... I NEVER recommended any quick release system to you???  The only quick release systwem I ever recomended is the A.R.M.S. which is VERY expensive, and way over your head.

And, NO, Blue printing won't fix anything.  You have the worst ring/base set up in the business.  Get something better.

I would sugest you go back and re-read my advice.  It will solve your problems, be rock solid, and cost about $60, instead of $250 to $350.

Of course... if you insist on having someone "Blueprint" your action (there is no such thing), I'm sure that there are many that will take your money.


Is there a full moon out this week???



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 00:30:05 (ZULU)

Tony B.: Not by inclination, but when necessity dictates.  Why?

Grasshopper <>
CA, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 00:54:58 (ZULU)

   Thank you, Marius!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 05:02:05 (ZULU)

Pete, they still use the charlie gutsache and they got inserts or some sorta prac rounds for 66 to I think.

Ive had some better than expected happenins on the financial front recently so whilst in the big smoke today I lashed out & bought a 8lb tin of varget,flip up scope covers 140 6.5 smk & a bit of other crap then copped an earful from wifey after her waitin in the car for an hour while Im droolin thru the gun shop.If the good things continue there may be a leica lrf 1200 in this part of the world soon.AH the joys of married life.

On the downside the feral gubmint has blackmailed the states into banning pistols with 4 inch or shorter barrels,they seem to think they are easier to conceal than a 5 or 6 inch version.These "people" really suck.When I get to be president I think I'll declare an open season on past politicians :)



Gavan Willis <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 10:32:20 (ZULU)

Ref: Safety Tip

If you plan to spend $1600 on a new stick, be sure to tell the wife well in advance.  It's not advisable to simply inform her a couple weeks before Christmas your going to need to write a monster check.  Failing this,use ice in the first 24 hours, the swelling should go down in a couple of days.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 12:49:48 (ZULU)

Kevin- This situation is clearly not your fault.  George should shoulder all of the blame for the unfortunate timing of this financial down turn. After all you had no

reason to expect the project would be completed so quickly.  I clearly remember you indicating (in writing) that you were not expecting the rifle until much later in the winter. The only question that comes to mind is whether reaction is truly related to the timing  of the expenditure ?  Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery.



PS- When did you say Andy's rifle would be ready?  

rod hansen <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:34:59 (ZULU)

Hi all,

Does anyone know where I can find a SIMRAD adaptor for a M40-A1 Unertl mount?  I don't know if it's a separate ring or the top half of the existing ring.  Thanks.

Semper Fi


Steve <>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:52:45 (ZULU)

Kevin -

Tylenol for the pain, Advil for the swelling :).

Get well soon.


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:57:04 (ZULU)


Check with Marty Badger.  I think he has them.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 14:50:45 (ZULU)


Thanks.  I looked on the Badger site, but couldn't find them.  If I remember correctly, they used to be on there.  Unless Badger doesn't list all of their stuff on the web site, I don't know if they have them anymore.  Still looking....

Semper Fi


Steve <>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 15:07:28 (ZULU)


Call Marty and ask.  If he doesn't have them, I'll bet he can tell you where to get them.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 15:34:45 (ZULU)


Thanks! Sometimes editing just isn't appropriate when the post isn't either. :))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 16:11:35 (ZULU)

I guess it was my turn in the kicking box today... over 85 virus laden emails in one day... wow, am I lucky!

Ken, any chance we could somehow hide the email addy when a post is made... I only use this addy for the roster and it's clear someone has declared war.

Sinister - if I read you right, you made a purchase on the Swede?  If you need me to stop by and take a look (to confirm condition) before they ship it, just let me know.

medicjim <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 17:02:21 (ZULU)


I emailed Marty.  Thanks again.


Steve <>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 17:54:57 (ZULU)

GW, yeah we had them sub cal things for the 66 too, it was the Armoureres job to load the things, if i remember right we had to unscrew a plate at the back end and insert the umbilical primer thingy, 21mm rocket they fired?, hell i ain't played with one of them in years, you lot got Milan? the froggy anti tank thing? we used to have fun with them, hell i spent some tax payers money shooting them of, the equipment course to learn to repair em was a superb piss up too,we had a bloody bomb alert in one of the pubs near the barracks and the MP's came and evacuated the pub, i ended up getting friendly with the female MP captain... ( frowned upon that sort of thing you know, officers x non com's, but lust knoweth no boundaries or rank)

Lito. I think bisley t is refring to,, was it the burris Z rings? what ever you told him to get, he's probably referencing to a picture on the net or in a catalogue that is incorrect, either way he needs to bin them rings he's got and then buy a S&B..scope and some decent rings. I told him i'd take a nikon over a leupold, you agree?

Here's a funny one for you, now just call me Mr Bean or plain unlucky if you like, but after having my car crashed yesterday, i do a 12 hour shift, go home, get changed into bed attire and want to watch Band of Brothers (the final 2 episodes) on the TV, turn the box on, no bloody satellite signal, bugger, its cold out, the damn dish is on a pole at the bottom of the garden, behing a load of bushes, I display the signal strength and lock indicator on the tv and go and push the dish and pole around a bit, hopeing to get it back in the right place, back in the apartment i go, still no bloody lock, so there i am back and forth, no joy, I can't see the damn TV from out side so its all guess work, after about a half hour, still no damn signal, I get a bright idea, put the shutters up and stack the TV on top of a tool box and an ammo box on top the sideboard, with it facing out the window so i can see when i get lock. back out to the dish, bugger i still cant see the tv through the bushes, so i break of branches to create a lane through em, bugger, can't make out whats on the tv, ah,another bright idea get the bino's, ah, at last there i am, dish and pole in 1 hand bino's in the other, watching the tv so i see when i hold the damn dish in the right direction, bollocks where's the TV gone? back into the apartment, bugger its toppled of the ammo can, luckily onto the bed, phfew nuthin broken, back on the stack goes the tv, and i dash back out side, back in the bushes i go, around the corner come's a cop, some one has been neighbourhood watching and has seen me dashing back and forth and has called the cops,now bear in mind its bloody freezin, i'm in my slippers and half naked. I'm spying into the bed room with my bino's, try explaining that.. any way, i did manage to explain it, and even got the cop to twist the dish and pole about, with me in the warm apartment keeping an eye on the signal strength and lock indicator, finaly got a picture with 2 minutes to go,4 hours sleep and back to work, some days things just don't go my way.. right time to see a man about a pig.

New moon Wed Dec 4 08:36:12 2002    

First quarter    Wed Dec 11 16:49:43 2002    

Full moon Thu Dec 19 20:12:19 2002    

Last quarter Fri Dec 27 01:32:25 2002    

New moon Thu Jan 2 21:25:08 2003

Lito with a S&B you don't need a moon.. ha ha, what you doing, coyote shooting? we got nearly a quarter moon tonight, that'll do for me to see the piggies, going to have the first night in my new  tree stand, been -5 c here during the day, better put my longjons on. Pete  

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 18:07:07 (ZULU)


  Just got back from a Military Ball in southern WI.  Three days of a foggy stupor and tons of awards for my team.  It was a good time for a change.  Amazing what 3 kegs can do for a formal event!  


 'Lito is right...though surly.  I have the same problem you have with those rings and bases.  You can shim the rear or ditch the whole thing and do it right.  I opted for ditching that crap.  Loopy makes good scopes, OK QR set-ups, and decent MK4 set-ups--but the standard stuff is problematic at every turn.  I solved the elevation problem on my son's Mod 7 with the weaver rail (one piece) base and a set of Burris Zee rings.  If deer season wasn't in full swing, the loopies wouldn't have seen a shot fired.  Garbage!  Now, the reason Lito was short in his response is that he addressed this last week--and you seemed to have ignored his advice.  And now you've been whacked by the rolled newspaper.


Thanks for the tip on the Zee's--they are alot like the opti-locs from Sako...good stuff.  Wouldn't have known to try them without your plug.

Still waiting for the official word...looks like Doha, Qatar.  Kinda further in the rear than I wanted.  I'll figure out how to move up north or west when the time least I'm going in the right direction.  This desk here is as "rear area" as it gets!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 18:14:36 (ZULU)


The SAKO .338 is sold. Great deal to a knowledgable gent. Sako Opti-lock rings and mounts, and all the goodies.  At least we had one lucky winner.

Chris, so NOW I'm a pussie because I shoot a 6.5 X .284. Actually, I must be an amazon, cuz I shot the .338 Lapua...;-)

All for now gents.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:03:35 (ZULU)

I have a Sako Forester in .308.  It seems like a very small action to me.  Is this sturdy enough to build a heavy barrelled rifle on?

P. M. Hayden <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:13:40 (ZULU)

Call me idiot, but what the hell is blueprinting?  Do I call it by some other name maybe?  The only places I have heard it used is on websites, and I've never heard  an explanation as to what blueprinting is or entails..

Compass Lake Engineering, anyone hear of that place?

happy day, the 'r's' are in production...yee haw!!

Pete, you unlucky bastad..  Looks to me like you had one of those ideas that sounded good at the time but....


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:36:00 (ZULU)


ok, yeah I've heard of it, now that I've seen this...  here's the explanation

what this does for accuracy, I'm not sure...  Perhaps crispens (wha?) the receiver up.  I'd have to have one ratty action to do this kinda work on it though, he's really takin the piss out of truing a receiver..  oh well.  everyone's gotta make a living.



JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:05:16 (ZULU)


You WOULD be the one to ask??  HA!... Double HA!!


*Blueprinting (blu-printing): verb  A slang term from the auto racing culture - meaning to make or rebuild to the original dimentions - to the blueprints.  The act of returning any piece of machanical equipment to the dimentions originally specified in the design blueprints.


OK... there are 'smiths that will "true" your action... meaning they will lap the lugs so both have full or almost full contact... but if this not done carefully (meaning polishing AFTER lapping) the lugs can gall... a very badd thing!  Sometimes lapping is needed, most times not.  They "may" put the action in a lathe and cut a new face on it... but this is not needed, since that is how the action is faced at the factory in the first place... but they will gladly charge for it.  Some will chase, or "re-thread" the barrel threads, but that is also a questionable effort.

Some 'smiths will "true" the action as part of the barrel instalation.

None of these efforts return the action to the original dimentions... in fact thay take the action further away from the orginal dimentions.

Remember that all these efforts remove metal... you cannot fix the alignment of a bolt by removing metal... you must build up the surface by Tig welding, then take it down... which is something that NONE of these guys do.  It would make no sense, since the Remington action only costs about $75 to make.

But beware of 'smiths that use the phrase "Blueprinting"!  They are blowing smoke in your ear!

If you need an action that is perfect, then buy a perfect action to start with... there are many custom (aka Handmade) actions on the market... all it takes in money!



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:07:24 (ZULU)


I cannot find your previous post (on roster or archives). My understanding was that you recommended Burris rings and Leupold QRW bases.

If I am incorrect, please accept my apologies.


Bisley Tiger <>
Standing in the corner, with a pointy hat on, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:42:59 (ZULU)

Aye Lito,

Blueprinting is a misnomer...  Maybe he's blueprinting to his prints, ha..  When we squared the action face, and lapped the bolt lugs, ground the recoil lug, and so on, we called it 'accurizing'.  but this fella likes to take it to the next level (read unnecessary), he's got indicators, 4 jaw chucks, reamers, etc..  He's actually re-boring the receiver!!  Like I said, I'd have to have one ratty assed action to go thru all that..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:10:23 (ZULU)


That's what I recomended... but Leupold QRW bases are "standard weaver cross slot" bases... just very well made and very low.

The Burris "Signaturee 'ZEE' rings" are machined steel, with adjustable taper, and a cross bolt to hold the rings on the bases... they cannot come loose!!  In fact, they take longer to remove than the BAdgers and MK4 rings.  Nothing about this combo is quick release.



To take an off the rack action, and spend a ton on money to re-machine it to non-spec dimentions is damn silly.  For the cost of a Rem or Win action, then add the labor to create some action that has nothing that is standard is expensive, and dumb.

For those anal types that can't live without perfection, there are many great custom made actions around... for less than a "accurized" Rem will cost... plus then you have something with real re-sale value.

When you pour a fortune into a Rem action, what do you have when you're done... a used $50 action :((



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:17:56 (ZULU)

'lito-  How do you really feel about Reminton actions ?  What's really WRONG with them?  Given your frequent outbursts about whats wrong at Remington it seems odd that you would have ANY of there stuff in your safe.  How is that Fireball doing?  Don't hold back , just vent , let it all come to the surface.  It will be good for you.


rod hansen <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:56:38 (ZULU)


from the Leupold catalogue,

Leupold QRW bases are "quick release weaver cross slot"

Leupold PRW bases are "standard weaver cross slot"

Are PRW the bases you are referring too????


Bisley Tiger <>
Standing in the corner, with a pointy hat on, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:33:46 (ZULU)

Steve A.,

 The Burris Zee rings have an "offset insert"--you can use these by rotating them inside the rings to change windage or elevation--depending on where you put the +/- sides in relation to the baseline (vertical axis is neutral--they are eccentric to the rings).  A very handy feature for what ails your set-up currently.


Lito has chimed in on remmy's poor QC alot around here, but he's been on them for EVERYTHING--not just their actions. FWIW, I'd be glad to pick up whereever Lito leaves off on criticizing Big Green's failures of quality control.  I was dumb enough to buy one.  But hey, they make great project guns.  Too bad the price doesn't reflect this reality.

Hey, how are those Howa actions holding up?  Anyone?

Bueller?  Bueller?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:35:40 (ZULU)

Jim, haven't bought the Swede yet, but if you find one like the one on the link could you let me know?  I think Sarco's got a nice rifle there, if just a little pricey.

Forwarded for your enjoyment:

A letter from a farmer, now at Camp Pendleton:

Dear Ma and Pa,

Am well.  Hope you are.  Tell Walt and Elmer the Marine Corps beats working for old man Minch by a mile.  Tell them to join up quick before maybe all of the places are filled.  I was restless at first because you got to stay in bed till nearly 6 a.m., but am getting so I like to sleep late.  Tell Walt and Elmer all you do before breakfast is smooth your cot and shine some things.  No hogs to slop, feed to pitch, mash to mix, wood to split, fire to lay.  Practically nothing.

Men got to shave but it is not so bad, they get warm water.  Breakfast is strong on trimmings like fruit juice, cereal, eggs, bacon, etc., but kind of weak on chops, potatoes, ham, steak, fried eggplant, pie and other regular food.  But tell Walt and Elmer you can always sit between two city boys that live on coffee.  Their food plus yours holds you till noon, when you get fed again.  It's no wonder these city boys can't walk much. We go on "route" marches, which the Platoon Sergeant says are long walks to harden us.  If he thinks so, it is not my place to tell him different.  A "route march" is about as far as to our mailbox at home.  Then the city boys gets some sore feet and we all ride back in trucks. The country is nice, but awful flat.  

The Sergeant is like a schoolteacher.  He nags some.  The Captain is like the school board.  Majors and Colonels just ride around and frown.  They don't bother you none.  This next will kill Walt and Elmer with laughing.  I keep getting medals for shooting.  I don't know why.  The bulls-eye is near as big as a chipmunk and don't move.  And it ain't shooting at you, like the Higgett boys at home.  All you got to do is lie there all comfortable and hit it.  You don't even  load your own cartridges. They come in boxes.  

Be sure to tell Walt and Elmer to hurry and join before other fellers get into this setup and come stampeding in.

Your loving daughter, Gail

P.S.  Speaking of shooting, enclosed is $200 towards a new barn roof and ma's teeth.  The city boys shoot craps, but not very good.

Sinister Dave <>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:36:25 (ZULU)

Why do you guys torture yourselves by getting "joint" checking accounts? To take this further, why do you guys even tell your wifies what you are buying? You need to go to Boltster's class on sneakiness.

Rule one, get a safe, keep the combo to yourself.

Rule two, rotate the guns around in the safe to make it look different just incase a female peaks inside. Females remember how things are supposed to look, not how many things were in there to begin with.

Rule number three, keep a gun or two at your buds house and make sure that wifie sees how empty the safe is. "Yep hon, had to sell a few to have enough allowance to get the one I really want."

More tips and tactics later, Bolt out!

PS: Politicians and Car Dealerships are just alike, nuff said!

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:38:50 (ZULU)

Lord, I pray thee, what sin have I commited that you have brought this plague of Leupold mount and base poopie upon my insignificant life?

I promise that I won't peep into the girls showers anymore... well maybe for a week... OK, til tomorrow, that's the best I can do!


Bisley kitten

Go here:

I don't mean to get pissy but JEEZ Mang!  You will notice that the difference you are talking about are in the RINGS (That's R-I-N-G-S).

Lookie at the picture... they only show ONE set of bases for both the QRW and the PRW.  Those bases come BY THEMSELVES... you don't buy either set of rings.  They explain the difference in the RINGS (that's R-I-N-G-S).

I give up... get what ever you want.  Hell, keep the STD rings and bases, I'm sure you will be happy.



You missed the whole point.  Why spend $600 to $700 for an off the rack rifle, then spend another $400 to $500 to have the action "blueprinted", to put back the orginal barrel??? I don't care if it's a Rem, a Winchester, a Howa, or whatever.  If someone needs that level of precision, get a custom action... then when you go to sell it, you will get most of your money BACK... if you put that much money into a OTR rifle, and go sell it, you will get $500 for the whole damn thing.


I need a friggin El Breako from this stuff.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 23:37:47 (ZULU)

Litto, first something nice.  Just saw a new BDC for the MK4 from Leupold. Its marked for 190's 300wm and goes to 1300 yards.  You do that? If so the moas built in are good to go. Cant wait for mine to get here this week.

Next not sure what you are talking about as a waste of money getting an action straight. I ahve ahd several done by GA Precisiopn and Norcal Precision and its a great thing to do when you build a weapon. I notice on my trued actions all rounds go in the same hole no matter how hot it becomes. Can you explain what you mean? Not sure I am following you or JR.

Lastly what do you think of the quality of the weaver style bases from Leupold? Are they good enough to mount a MK4 M3? and MK4 rings?

Grasshopper, never used the Mad Dog knives so cant speak. You come on by and we will beat the knives up and see.  


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 23:46:02 (ZULU)

Okay, Okay!

I can now see that you are right and I'm wrong (thats W-R-O-N-G).

I've screwed up again (thats A-G-A-I-N).

Bisley Tiger <>
I'm going back to my village, its missing this particular idiot, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:12:42 (ZULU)

"Rule two, rotate the guns...".  Bolt, allow me to make a change that works for me.   Rule two, rotate the wives.   Console yourself with the fact that as long as you have more guns than ex's, you're not a slut.

Don K.

Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:50:20 (ZULU)

Bolt - Your advice is excellent.  My problem is the wife does the same thing with her closet, kids closet( 3 girls) and bed linens, dishes, and furniture.  I really come out on the losing side.  At least with full disclosure she only spend $3 to my $1.  Far better than the 10 to 1 it used to be.  

GROUP DRAG BAG PURCHASE  :   looking at putting together a group Drag bag purchase  of the big bags from either Eagle or Blackhawk or London bridge.  Don't have prices yet, but wanted to get a list together so I could talk to some folks at where ever we chose.  Let me know on mfg and color via Email like George handled the SC rifle project. I vote for tan to go with the SC rifle camo.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:59:19 (ZULU)

Mr. T-I-Dubba-Guh-Errrrr,

That's in pooh bear. And that vilage idiot thing was funny!  Now before you came back as a large feline--did you used to make pistols in a former life?  Har-har.

Loopy two-parters is askin' for alignment problems.  Well-made one piece bases are worth the investment.  I use MK4 rings on a badger base--but only because Marty can't make rings fast enough for my "buy it now" mentality (or stupidity).  High demand means something, now don't it?  Ever see loopy standards on back order? Hmmm.  BTW-I forgot, what are you mounting all this on?  A winnie?  The two piece MK4s are winnie and the one piece loopy is remmy--or am I catalog challenged too?


add a rule:  Never let yer wife see a badger (premier) invoice.  My base/rings cost more than her tikka...and she dudn't like that one bit...I had to appease her with our second stealth!!!! Heheh.  I win.  Would you believe that Tikka whitetail .270 NIB came even up in a trade for a very, very used Rossi 357?  Dude wanted that POS baaaaaaad.  Who wuz I to argue?  I still laugh when I see retail price lists...

For those who asked:  Blake did not get his deer.  His only shot was at a mover, and he just yanked that trigger sideways.  Doe-fever.  He got the Maple though.  And twenty-five push-ups for Fuhhh-gettin' everything he was taught.  Well this was his first year with a center fire, so we'll just fall back on "practice, practice, practice" for a while.

One last dumb question:  Will the short action Model 7 fit a SA 700 stock?  

And where can I find metal bottoms to git rid of that plastic?  Maybe I should call George and go whole hawg...boy deserves a decent stick for puttin' up with his dad...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:18:58 (ZULU)

'lito--  Clearly you are right,I did completely miss the point of your previous post(December 9, 2002,21:17:56 ZULU). But since you raised the issue, in that post you did not mention complete rifles- you specifically said "actions".  You certainly did not say anything about putting the original barrel back on it once all the work was done. Now THAT WOULD BE DUMB.  Please help me out by telling me where I can buy a "custom" action for less than it costs to "accurize" or "blueprint" a Rem or Win or whatever action.  

 Perhaps, just perhaps,there has been a time or two that you have been "damn silly" or "dumb" and spent some money on having an OTR ACTION fixed to make it shoot better. In your post ( referenced above) the issue of resale value was an after thought.  And buy the way how often do the people here make an expenditure for a product or service (i.e.;action work) where resale value trumps how the rig SHOOTS.  I have to think that the question of "how much can I sell it for" rarely , if ever, comes into play.  In addition ,what about all the aftermarket stuff that is readily available (and CHEAP) for that lowly OTR action.  Does Marty make bases for Brand X custom action?  What about a stock for this beast?  If the custom action costs less and is better than fixing a Rem or Win why don't George or Jerry or any of the other top tactical smiths prefer them.  Why are the vast majority of 1000 yard benchresters using OTR actions that have been worked over.

 Perhaps you do need a friggin El Breako from this stuff.


rod hansen <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:35:46 (ZULU)

Mike Miller...

>"Lito, first something nice.  Just saw a new BDC for the MK4 from Leupold. Its marked for 190's 300wm and goes to 1300 yards.  You do that? If so the moas built in are good to go. Can't wait for mine to get here this week."<

Yeah... I do that.  It took me 3 years of beating up on them (Garth in particular)... and for them to make my changes, but it was worth it... the new cams play like they're guided missles ;)))

I have a M3-LR on the .308 M24, and a MK4-M3 on the .300WM M24, and with either, if I see it, it faw down, go boom!

As to trued actions... lookie.  If a good smith takes a good OTR action and builds a good rifle, it will shoot very well.  If the action is poorly made, then it MAY benefit from cleaning up, but likely it will shoot the same either way.

I doubt anyone has done a blind study on it, but if you take a good clean M70 or M700 action, and barrel it with a premium Schneider or Pak-Nor... shoot it, then take it apart, and clean up the action, put it together again and  shoot it, I doubt that there would be any significant improvement, and it could go worse.

Much of this VooDoo comes from the Benchrest crowd, and you know how anal they can be.

As a craftsman I would prefer to work on a "Clean" action... for my own sticks, I first cut the ejector spring to 0.95" on all Rems and Win pushfeeds... then I polish the bolt face to a mirror finish (the fired primers look like little mirrors with a dimple in the middle).

I polish the bolt ways if they are rough, and do a list of other clean ups.  All of this makes the riffle more pleasent to own and shoot, but does nothing to improve accuracy

An action that is so off that it really needs to have the bolt redone, or the barrel threads chased or recut... is so off that I wouldn't want to put more money into it.  Just sell it and find another action.  I'm sure that some will disagree, but I have many rifles (both Rems and Wins) that will shoot under .20" consistantly, and their actions are box stock.

As to the weaver style bases from Lupita... I like the QRW for setting up 1" scopes with the Burris "Signature ZEE" rings.  On tac riffles, for the MK4-M3's I prefer the MK4 one piece base, cuz it's much lower than the Badger, and it has no taper (the MK4-M3 needs a flat base).  For the M3-LR's I prefer the Badger bases.



>"You certainly did not say anything about putting the original barrel back on it once all the work was done."<

That's because I was responding to a comment about having a Rem "Bluprinted" to correct an elevation problem... there was no talk of getting a new barrel and doing a total rebuild.

If I had an action that was so bad that it needed more that a polishing of the rails and minor cleaning up of little stuff, I would NEVER put money into it to get it re-threaded... that's like putting warped heads on a racing Porsche engine... if you have to do a total re-machining to get it right, it's the wrong action to start with.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:49:08 (ZULU)


Now I've got 5 o' your slings.  

To all,

If your still using some other sling than a Tactical Intervention Sling...   Well, to put it nicely, "You're WRONG!"

I spent a lotta years w/ Uncle Sam's Mis-guided Children using the issue sling for rifle qual. This Undude rig is the cat's ass.  I've been using my first one for 2 years now.  Still tighter'n a weddin' night pri#*.  Not to mention FAST.

The preceding was an unashamed, unbiased, objective plug for a good friend's product. ;o)



Dennis <>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:01:59 (ZULU)

Here is a link on the lack of commitment to the offense in OEF:

Since two of the principals in this thing have crossed my path over the years, I am inclined to take this at face value.


Thought for the day:  If you want to run for office--then take off the uniform and do it!  

Disclaimer:  Thoughts for the day and links to the times are in no way meant to imply that anyone in particular is a farkin' political ass...that would be improper.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:04:08 (ZULU)


I wasn't trying to assign my pussified shooting preference to anyone else ;)) I wouldn't have a custom 300WM or a 338 Lapua built,,,  cause I'm a recoil pussy.  The fact that you shot that Sako without a break releases you from "recoil pussy" status.  I'd have just stood there and watched,, thinkng of how it would feel if my color bone actually touched the inside of my shoulder blade.

Custom actions for the cost of a Remington/Winch + truing?  Stolle Panda, $900, RPA Quadlite, $650, Nesika Bay (entry action) $1000.  None of these have triggers,, but they are all perfect from the factory.  You'll need to consider a custom inlet on your McMillan though,,, as none of these workie with a Rem/Win/Sav/Rug inlet except the quadlite and it needs to be pushed forward and the lug recess needs to be modified.  Alex Sitman can do you up a stock that made exactly for you, from LOP to the distance of the trigger from the pistol grip, etc,,,  But it'll cost ya $800.

Bench resters may use rems/win's etc... but the top prone shooters are using the above mensioned actions, plus CG's, AI's, Paramounts, swifts, Gilkes Ross, etc... The 40X's are the bottom of the line actions for the serious prone competitors.   The guys like me,, who really just go to play and have fun, shoot rem's and winch's... the big boys bring toys that cost more than my truck, and they win.  Course,, they'd beat me with a factory Savage,, so take that w/a gr of Varget. (salt is bad for my BP)


You're in the land of RPA and AI's.  Pick a couple up and see what you can make with them. ;))


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:12:02 (ZULU)

Been away for a week with no laptop so............

Camp McCoy Shoot -

What, where, when, who, why?

Peeing In A Wetsuit -

Nope.  Won't even go there.

Atlanta, Georgia -

My son and his momma are most likely going to move there to open up his new business.  Because of my background, they've asked me to help out with the financial stuff once a month, for a nice fee, of course!  If I like what I see there, I might seriously consider moving out of Chad Land.

Do any of youse Hawgs live in the Atlanta area?  Can anyone direct me somewhere to check out Georgia's firearms laws and firearms friendliness?  How 'bout Atlanta area shooting facilities?


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:34:42 (ZULU)

Hey Moe !

How far is Boca from Ft. Myers ? Will be there doing some waterborne stuff first week in January.

Later dude,


brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:40:53 (ZULU)

Fatboy, no slam here, please don't take it that way. Just want to make something clear on those actions you listed. Unless there's something I don't know, they're all single shots. No magazines at all. I've been TOLD that the RPA can be had as a magazine, but I've never SEEN one.

I know you were making a point, and well made it was. Just didn't want folks to think you were talking base actions for what most would consider tactical rifles. Now let's see how many of these bellycrawlers want to live with the One Shot mentality LOL.

When I start shooting possibles, then I'll THINK about a CG. Until then, it would be a case of a sows ear shooting an empty silk purse.

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:51:33 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I know what you mean about Premier Recipt, the wife didn't thing the price of the new Stealth was bad. But was shocked to see the price for the scope, MK4 rings, Badger base & Mildot master. Ouch!!

But then again when I came home with a real nice 9 pointer with my muzzleloader the first thing she said was "Boy that sure would look nice over the fireplace". I will never understand what makes Woman think anything is a good or bad idea.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:55:03 (ZULU)

Moe - Georgia Firearms Laws:

Hey, who says VPC aint good for nothing?

"Georgia Firearm Laws

No licensing or registration requirements related to purchase or possession of any firearms.

No waiting period for purchase of handguns, shotguns, or rifles.

There are no age restrictions related to possession of rifles or shotguns.

Handgun possession by persons less than 18 years of age is a misdemeanor for a first-time offense, a felony for a second-time offense. Exemptions from the prohibition on handgun possession by persons less than 18 years of age exist for attendance at a hunter's or firearms safety course, target practice at a shooting range, and other similar activities."

Sounds like a might friendly place to be....

Byron <>
CA, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:10:48 (ZULU)


Youse completely correct mang.  This was a discussion myself and another shooter I highly respect had.  Many seem to think the solid floor design makes for a stiffer action.  A stiffer action (supposedly) makes for a more accurate rifle.  

Is it true?? Shit,, I don't know.  We both came to the conclusion that a Remington 700, A Winchester, a Nesika Bay, A Viper Python and a host of others can, and have, shoot 200 scores at 1000y.  The Single shot may give you the edge when it comes to X count, if you have the skills to capitolize, and that's what many of these matches come to.  It'll be a long time, if ever, before I see higher scores due to my action,, but they are beautiful,,, and smooth as silk.

As you said,, no repeaters.  Nesika is coming out with one and there's always Dakota or Prarie Dog Gun Works, and the AI repeaters, etc... but like you said,,, a target rifle does not a tactical rifle make.


You move to Hotlanta and you're only 2.5 hours from our monthly 1K shoots, about 2 hours from JW's 5 or so HardRock 1K matches, a couple hours from the 600 yard Benning matches, 2 hours from Oak Ridge and their monthly and weekly 1K matches and Palma shoots.  And I haven't even touched on the highpower circuit.  Chatanooga will have the 500 yard line up this year, we have 100 thru 1K, Oak Ridge has 100 to 1K and there are many, many small 200 reduced courses,, but I MUCH prefer the full course so I don't remember any.

My Father lived in Douglasville before moving back down to Florida.  He got his Carry permit in 60 days.  Very easy, and reciprocol with many, if not all, of Florida's recipricol states.  They have numerous gun shows in Hotlanta and the surrounding 'burbs also.  The trouble with Atlanta,, TRAFFIC!!!!!!  Best to got to work around 4am and go home about 1PM (skip lunch!!)  because the traffic is absolutely HORRIBLE.  Other draw back,, state taxes.  

Dean Miller,, where you at mang??  You can fill Moe in much better than I.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:24:03 (ZULU)

Ken M,

Email me a contact phone number so we'se can get coordinated on coordinations.  Once the holidays are off, we'll want to push fast on all the ankle-biters in setting this up.  So far, a capabilities drill--if available (units training would help there).  Post orientation...too easy--these guys are proud.  I do this for edumacators all the time.  It ain't a bad dog-and-pony.  Then, shoots on the KD and maybe the multi-purpose and of course, pop-ups and whatever else we can schedule.  The state patrol academy is here, as well as a MAITS site; might squeeze those in.  

Might be good to open a discussion on how many days/ which days work best for max participation.  ie-tues thru sunday, or whatever...


any advice you may have for this would be a big help too.

Joe U,

Yer initials, JLU remind me of my last squad in the duece.  I had a Fillipino and a Hispanic Team leader under me.  The phonetic alphebet was a challenge for me over the radio!  One dude always said "Julu" for zulu.  When I see your 'JLU" I can hear that in the back of my mind...that and Roy-yer.  I bumped into one of those guys years later while fishing on sheep creek in Alaska.  I didn't recognize him until he started mimicking himself overthe radio!  I died laughing.  But I came back as me.  

EEEEEZA Roy-yer, ober!  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
FT McCoy, WI, USofA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:25:43 (ZULU)

"blueprinted" actions et al.................the only truing ya need is the lugs....gently. there's a big ass spring in one side of the bolt that's gonna cant  the cartridge anyway unless you're building a game gun.

Square up the face so that the lug matches up all pretty an stuff...............

The important part is the chamber.........cut it square with the bore, cut it one time., and do it ALL with the finish reamer so only one tool has to be aligned.  

Yeah, you gotta buy a new reamer for the shop, but then it's your 300 buck barrel, so what's another 80 or so on top of that.

Life gets real consistant cold/warm/clean/fouled.  

Some old dude with 27 world records gave me that little we were rebarreling my stick in his shop over a weekend.  forget his name......Ed something or other.

Mike inTexas <>
Texas, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:39:19 (ZULU)


   Hate to hear about your bp. I'm told Varget is good for all ailments. It has to inhaled in smoke form from a brass container to work well, but the effects are supposed to be excellent. It soothes my nerves.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:54:50 (ZULU)

Georgia Gun Laws:


Do you have instant messenger or icq ?  I live in Buford which is about 40 miles Northeast of Atlanta and I will be happy to give you a bunch of info..

We're about 2 hours from the 1k Match in Opelika, about 2 Hours from the Ft Benning Matches, 3 Hours from Chris' Matches, 2 Hours From Augusta's 1k Matches... There is a 600 Yard ANYANY Match near us in Dawsonville which is about 1 hour from me.  Also there is a second 600 yard ANYANY down at Ft Benning operated by the Chatahoochee County Club.

Dean Miller <>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 04:05:47 (ZULU)

I would like to know if any can tell me where to buy a remington 700P.  i am trying to decide what kind of rifle i want.  Either a standart 700P .308, 700P TWS .308, or a 700P LTR.  But i would like to see them before i buy them or a least find a site that sells them.

I am civilian but am still very interested in this gun.  Can someone tell me where to buy it.

Thanks for your time

Brian Nichols

Brian Nichols <>
East Bank, WV, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 04:20:56 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon....My particular Howa is holding up just fine.  Last round count was, let's see, somewhere in the 500 region, so I don't know how it's going to be at the 1k mark, but so far, so good.  If'n I do my part, it's usual to make little jaggedy holes at 100, best group so far out to 500 was 1.7".  Still chrono's 2660 out of the 20" tube with 46 gr Varget and Sierra 168 gr HPBTM.

Bolt, I just gave up and got a regular gun case with a key.  Wiffe would have a fit if she couldn't get to "her" Howa whenever she wanted. Of course, she says it's "hers" and I just will hafta be satisfied with buying another one for me.  Trick is, get a good one the first time.  That goes for rifles, too.....

Cris, try more beer for the blood pressure problems.  Might not work, but you won't care near as much. Finally going to get to burn some powder in the morning.  Dirty Steve still won't go, mumbled something about "making up lost time" now that Irene's back from a year Active duty.  Go figure.

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:04:53 (ZULU)

Litto, good job on the bDC's for Leupold!

As to trued actions. Honestly I have no fng clue who is right on this. I spent a day with Jerry Ric watching him bed a rifle.  Man thats alot of work.  He made sure everything was set in a mil, square, level and centered, you name it. He them milled the pillars and cut to perfect length on the mill.  Made sure the action wa slevel in he stoock before evenb thinking about bedding.  I mean if I saw anyone do this much work I would think it would cost 500-1000 to have it done.

I also saw all the work that goes into truing an actiopn and puttinga bbl and hamber in. Everything is set up perfect and the amountof work is unbelieveable.  I know why he work shoots sub 1/2moa groups all day. Nothging is left to chance.

Now befoe I knew Jerry and George Gardner I just bought a stock, put in the drill press and made pillars out of heavy walled aluminum tubing. slapped it all together with Marine Tex and they always shot pretty well. Well a heck of alot better than a PSS.

I had severalmatch bbls screwed on without truing and they always shot well, but nothing I ever slapped together ever came close to a Rice or Gardner rifle.  I mean with thier work its always one hole, in the same place everytime.  I dont know why I just know it works.

So the answer is? I dont know why just that having the tricks doen makes it work.


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:18:53 (ZULU)

Just figured out why the kittywhacker is coming across short. For decades he's gotten used to cold women, now everything around him is so cold even the kitties are wearing parkas. You still popping the fat ladies overgrown rats, or you giving them a break since they're wearing sky blue camo down coats? Hey, if you get bored, you can always try running them down in an old pinto LOL

Seriously, way to go on the BDC's.

Roger that on the solid bottomed actions. I might comment on this if I ever get one. Don't hold your breath though, just don't see it in my near future. Unless Wes wants to renig on a deal. Always a day late and a dollar short.

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:49:00 (ZULU)


I'm trying to get that picture out of my head of you, in blond ghillie, with a stock in a drill press, the CARNAGE!!!  ;))  silliness...

And, it's not that much work when you get the perfect set-up...  Once you get it right, and get a few thousand under yer belt, perfection becomes as natural as pickin' yer nose..  What throws you off is when you have to show someone else how to do it right the first time, or expect them to anyway...


RPA is on the menu for this summer......I think RPA might be having a magazine, if not now then very soon, as they are trying to tap the tactical market.  They have plans for an RPA tactical rifle, and a SS won't do for that.  Not sure what they took over to Canada for the .338 la-pooa trials.

Where's that 'smith from Florida?  yoo hoo!!

off to groovyville, sometimes work can be so bore-ing (I crack me up)


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 06:57:44 (ZULU)

Optical Camouflage

Some day, your 'camo' may consist of a white reflective suit, a digital camera, and a projector or two.

The videos are pretty impressive.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 07:22:29 (ZULU)


Aw Shit!  Are we all speaking english here?  I NEVER said that you could get a custom action for $500... I said by the time you have bought a rifle for the action, and then had someone spend the time to fix it, you would be into it for more than a custom action.  Damn, you can buy a used 40-XB and build on that.

And rod... none of the serious longrange shooters are building their rifles around a hunting grade M700.  That would be like building a race car around a VW engine.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 11:51:43 (ZULU)

Rangefinder review,

Aimpoint 2000? This is the one from Sportsman Guide. Optics are fair. The ranging tests yesterday (bright sun) were disappointing. It's supposed to be overcast today so I'll test again. Early opinion.... not worth the the $279.95 at all. The numerical display is a VERY light blue. Washes out in bright light easily. More later. Will check the speed measurement against the radar in one of the squads today.


"As a craftsman I would prefer to work on a "Clean" action... for my own sticks, I first cut the ejector spring to 0.95" on all Rems and Win pushfeeds... then I polish the bolt face to a mirror finish (the fired primers look like little mirrors with a dimple in the middle)."

"I polish the bolt ways if they are rough, and do a list of other clean ups.  All of this makes the riffle more pleasent to own and shoot, but does nothing to improve accuracy"

How do you do this? Any special tools? What polishing compounds and such. I've used Flitz metal polish on a .223 chamber before. Applied with a Qtip and cordless drill. :))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 12:17:41 (ZULU)


I never meant to imply you said you could get a custom action for $500.  If I read you correct,, you said it's silly to buy a $500 rifle and then spend $400 more getting it rebuilt, cause you still got a $500 rifle (or a $70 action ;)).  I agree,,,  and was just showing guys that for the price of a new rifle + 400 you can get a custom action sans trigger, that WILL be perfect in every way.  

What I forgot to mension is that most of these actions have the scope bases machined into them.  No need to worry about offset holes ;) Only drawback is no weaver slots in 90% of them, but they do make rails that will slide on and bolt down.  Gives you a picatinny rail, but also raises the cheek weld.

Me,, I buy my actions at the guns shows.  Wish I could get them for $70!!!  Cheapest I've been able to manage is $275 for a early 70's M70LA,, but I passed cause man it was rougher than a corn cob...  $300 is the standard rate for a Remington 700 here,, and about $350 for a Winchester.


You going with a quadlock or a quadlite repeater?  I Think it would have to be the quadlock,, but they're both very short for the magnum loadings.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 12:26:52 (ZULU)


 Folks we're scheduled to copy the snipercountry site to what will be it's permanent hosting home for at least the next five years. The connectivity will be great. During that time - I will  stop the snipercountry site service - so the transfer will go alot faster... and no posts will be lost. During this time --- you will not be able to see the site..... if all goes well later this afternoon/evening.... it oughta really blaze.

take care gents....

ken hunter <>
nokesville, va, us of a - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 12:43:07 (ZULU)

Bolt..Another rule;

 NEVER tell the wife that guns are a good investment!  Sooner or later they will want to know when you are going to cash in.

 I tell the wife that my purchasing guns is a form of public service as every one I keep off the street the bad guys can't misuse for some evil purpose.

 outa here

Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 13:02:28 (ZULU)


>"NEVER tell the wife that guns are a good investment!  Sooner or later they will want to know when you are going to cash in."<

HA!... I hear that.  My Ex tried that during the divorce.  Tell them that it's wholesome hobby that keeps you away from other women and various sins.  That works sometimes.



It's Rem that pays about $75 for the action... we pay a bit more ;)



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 13:20:18 (ZULU)


 I know what your "Trying" to say on the Rem and Winchester actions. You can put a lot of money into one and still not have the quality of a custom one with nearly the same price.


 Nasika Bay "Does" have a repeater and I believe one of the others you mentioned has one too. For some reason I think it was a Hall but could have been a Stolle or a Panda too. I just don't remember now. I had looked into getting one years back but just couldn't justify that much money for what I do.

 I got out to shoot again last night. It was 45 and only a 5 mph wind which is dead calm for here. I found that the 142s would not fit into my action at the OAL I had them at. When seated in to fit the mag they weren't nearly as accurate. However the 140AMAX tightened right up when seated a little deeper, now go figure that one out!!!

 I shot three groups off the bench at 200yds. The one with 142s went into a 1.280 with 4 in a .523 at mag length. The two groups with 140 AMAXs went into a .788 with 4 in, get this, a .222!!!! The other group was .67 something. These are actual group sizes "NOT" MOAs. This is while fire forming new Lapua brass that was sized down to the 260. Just ask me if I love this new Kreiger barrel!!!(HA) Hell double (HA)!!!

Pat <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 14:48:18 (ZULU)

So Ken, what you are saying is that we will still be here you just won't be able to see us for a little while, right ?

Fitting for a site named Snipercountry ...

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 15:01:06 (ZULU)

Howdy folks, long time no read.

Wes, Fatboy and any other 6,5x.284 lovers...

i want some of your insights on an idea i have.

Like some of you maybe know, i own a Sako TRG 22. And i am very happy about it. I was also gonna buy me a new custom stick in the above mentioned calibre.

"Unfortenately" i joined the police force last year and i now earn about a third less than i did when i was still in the Army.

So no custom stick money for next year.

I heard about a guy who had also a TRG22 but with a 6,5x.284 barrel. Since i know of a gunsmith who can do this for not tomuch money, i am really considerring a rebarrel job for next season.

What do you guys think of this, is it worth the money or do i risk turning my good shooting .308 in a piece of junk??

All thoughts apreciated,


Marco <>
NL - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 16:17:15 (ZULU)

Catman or Undude..

  Could you guys either post or send me the data off the 190 dial for the MK4s and will they be making the dial for the M3 long range??? Thanks!!!

State gun laws>>>

 If you move to South Dakota they check to see if you own a gun, if not, they give you one!!!

Pat <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:23:38 (ZULU)

<<<<<<<State gun laws>>>

If you move to South Dakota they check to see if you own a gun, if not, they give you one!!!>>>>>>

How do explain Daschle, did he move there from California?


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:54:52 (ZULU)


a rant:

I posted that link reference timid application of force vs. potential casualties.  Thought about the phenomena all night.  Can anyone blame these guys for "what-iffing" an operation into oblivion?  Look at the shit-storm from Mog--bad karma.  The media just loves to portray our forces as nearly invincible--so to be the first US commander since Vietnam to send a boat load of body bags to Dover ain't high on anyone's agenda.  It is a vicious cycle--media, politics, zero-defect officers...Politically, we wilt on the first hint of casualties--lookit Clinton sending that plane to pick up addid just after the day mortal enemy, next a deal making peace broker.  Go figure.  The media is convinced that desert storm is the new norm for US warfare, and anything less would be "failure" at its worst.  Officers, we take our cues from the Pols and the winds of opinion in the media...and react accordingly.  For better or worse.  Most of us know that war is a place to get hurt--some of us can't bring ourselves to "give the word" anymore.  Whudda sorry ass state.

The good news is Rummy seems to have no patience for that kind of careerism.  And by gawd, it will take a hard-ass like him to begin the change needed in our very thinking.  I think the media will come around after a while--but we need to get past them.  Ya know, in pounds of flesh for acres of realestate--TET was a bigger victory than St. Lo; just try to find that in print anywhere!  I am inclined to give some benefit of doubt to these commanders, if only to understand why they act (or not) in 'stan.  I can't excuse them--but I understand.  Now, we need to say bye-bye and get some one who isn't worried about himself---yes, worry for the troops, but not himself.  Mission, troops.  I wonder what it is about stars that cloud that issue.  The key to command is to focus down...know your task, your troops and do it.  Hell, that's what the boss wants...but we have a bunch focusing "up" the chain.  Overt or subtly; these guys suck the egg and get promoted.  

Grrrrrrr, rant off.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:58:53 (ZULU)


When we went out to South Dakota shootin' P'Dogs, we took a bunch of pistols with us.

So we dropped into the local sheriff and asked for applications for a pistol permit... and he said "What's that?"



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 18:04:07 (ZULU)

Gents, my .02 worth...

Action trueing: If you are going to spend money to have a custom match grade tube installed it's a must and doesn't add that much to the cost. I have rifles both ways, but the ones that shoot best are the "trued" actions. Personal choice, again. I know what mine is...

Chris, the .338 Lapua...I like it, can't help it if you are recoil those levels almost anyone would be...if it helps we'd still think you're a pussie...;-)

Marco, the 6.5 X .284 vs the .308 in your Sako: I'd shoot the daylights out of the .308 and then rebarrel when shot out. Unless you have a real need for the flatter trajectory, etc., of the 6.5 X .284.

Make sure you have more than 2.800" magazine length. Not familiar with the magazine length on your rifle.

More as time permits.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 19:07:21 (ZULU)


  We all have a cross to bear and he's ours!! I don't think he will make it again. He has suckered the people into believing that he is in a position to do them so much good now. Most have seen his true colors and hopefully will do the right thing and dump his liberal ass.

Pat <>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:23:38 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

<<The important part is the chamber.........cut it square with the bore, cut it one time., and do it ALL with the finish reamer so only one tool has to be aligned....>>>

I both agree and disagree with that statement...I prefer to have 2 reamers to chamber, a rougher and a finish reamer, both are cartridge specific.  It all depends on your set up, but if both reamers are piloted, and the work is running true to the tools, it's all good..  Both reamers MUST be piloted of course, I use the same pilot for both reamers..  You can't mount a chamber reamer in the Jacobs chuck, either use a reliable floating reamer holder or the 'hold on to your ass' method of using the lathe dog while driving the reamer with a center.  Anyway, the less work the finish reamer has to do, the betterer..  I've chambered both ways, with the finish reamer alone, and the 2 reamers, and I do find the latter for most rifle cartridges faster, as well as easier on the tool..  There is NO NEED to buy a new reamer for the 'smith every time you rebarrel, that's just ridiculous, not with the quality reamers out today, plus he's charging you for the tooling and use of anyway, he's really takin the piss if you're supplying HIM with tools..  PLUS, heh this post was going to take about 2 sentences to begin with, brand spankin' new chamber reamers don't always cut that well, sometimes they need a little TLC, read stone, or a break in chamber or two before they perform like they should, then they cut like butter.  Would you like your barrel to be the break in barrel?  Use a reputable upstanding 'smithy and he'll have the right tool for the job..


Good to see you finally got some sense in ya and joined the cut-rifled barrel club.  Couldn't a picked a better barrelmaker, top notch folk that Kreiger is..  I promise I won't tell you 'I TOLD YOU SO', promise..

oh, and finding someone who voted for Daschle is like finding someone who voted for Clinton.  No one will admit to it.  It's an enigma how in a state as conservative as SoDak, we could elect as liberal as you could get Douschel..  But, I've always heard that SoDak elects our Federal representatives Democrats to bring the money in to the state, and Republicans in the State house and governorship to spend it..

2 weeks 'til Santy Claws comes down the chimney, can you believe how fast this year went by?  like a blur!!


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:36:24 (ZULU)


U have mail. n/a


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:38:26 (ZULU)

>>>>>>"When we went out to South Dakota shootin' P'Dogs, we took a bunch of pistols with us.

So we dropped into the local sheriff and asked for applications for a pistol permit... and he said "What's that?"<<<<<<

Be still my heart!  Hell will freeze over before those words are ever spoken in Joisy. :(


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:04:17 (ZULU)


Makes good sense.  

I volunteered to buy the it's mine...all mine!  :)  I've cut the last 4 barrels with new reamers; I do stone them before use, just because it seems like a good idea....and had excellent (repeatable) results doing it this way.  

Jacobs chuck is sure a bad idea...................

Joe M,

Was speaking with Major sister in law (ring knocker)  in HHC in Kuwait,  dumbass career colonel assured the troops they'd all be home before 12/20 this year.  Clint Smith musta be thinking of this guy when he said some folks need to be shot.

Mike inTexas <>
Texas, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:14:11 (ZULU)

Spent all night in the woods, kind of chilly out, -11C all night, saw a large boar, but as the pig rut is in full swing and he'd be full of testosterone and the meat would be stinking I decided to not to shoot him, ( all you can do with a boar like that is sell it to a game dealer who will pass it on to some one who can't taste the difference),

Any of you guys noticed a difference in Cold Bore Shot when the barrel realy is cold? not that it would make a difference at pig range, but its just something i was thinking about at 03.00 this morning, when i wanted to drink some of the coke id taken up the tree stand with me, the damn bottle was frozen solid.

Blueprinting-accurising whatever you want to call it, squaring up the lugs and keeping CHS to a minimum seems to improve Rem 700's.But we could discuss the advantages or likely improvements 'till the cows come home. If resale value is what you are after, then no matter how much money you stick in a Rem 700, a Win 70 or a Howa, they remain what they are when it comes to selling them, just another factory rifle, its a case of horses for courses, and individual preferences and budgets, if money is no problem, what the hell, me I take great pleasuer in turning up to a range and seeing the wide eyed looks on the faces of the custom rifle(read action) croud when i start poping all the bullets into the same hole with my self built , heym barreled Rem 700, using factory hunting ammo(its even better when i do it with the 450 marlin), wether i could stay infront at any great distance is a different matter( i lack time, practice and facilities). Practice and confidence in the equipment you are using cannot be over looked, If spending big bucks on fancy actions give confidence in equipment so be it, like wise, if shooting several barrels out in a factory improved R700 or W70 breeds another kind of confidence, then, so be it too.

Having a good barrel, with a good chamber(on centre-minimum CHS,, nicely cut and finnished) and a good crown, then holding in the case in the chamber so it doesn't move when fired, will 99.9% of the time get you decent respectable accuracy, if you have the action and bolt absolutely square to the barrel and chamber (and case head) it is bound to be better and give more consitent accuracy.

It would be interesting, if all the actions mentioned on the roster had the same threads and we could screw 1 barrel(the same barrel) into them and then see if the accuracy improved or varied between each action, that might be an eye opener.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:20:02 (ZULU)


  Thanks for the pointer on keeping the barrel channel clean.


Eduardo Cotto <>
Bay City, Michigan, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 23:02:08 (ZULU)


Piggie ranges' CBS is moot for the application like you said, but if'n it gets any colderer (ALOT colder), petroleum based lubes will lock the firing pin.  We dealt with that in Alaska shootin' Bou off of snowshoes.  Man, that kinda' cold ain't right!  I thought I "wiped" all the oil res off my pin, but musta left some.  I was the last one to go "click" but I was also alone over the kills at the time when the wolves came in.  Helluva time to have the Sako sitting out the action.  My 629 was under gortex, down, poly, and cotton.  You shoulda seen me:

1) strip

2) shoot

3) get dressed

Talk all you want about video split second draws--I'd have beat anyone that night on the Yukon!  I dunno how cold it was, but the REI thermometer had all the mercury in the ball under the -65F mark!  Oil becomes crystallyne somewhere down there...oh, made $75 bucks on the wolves too.  Worst fun I ever had :)))

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 00:14:22 (ZULU)

OK,guys I am trying to remember a product talked about on this site a while ago to get rid of the "SPROING" noise in AR15 buttstock when fired.I seem to remember it being made by TUBB but all I can find is the CWS.Is that it?Thanks for any replies in advance,you can send the info off the board if you like.

Phil Andrews <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:00:02 (ZULU)

Joe, we don't get that cold here, (that don't mean i won't get hunting anywhere that will be that cold though.. ) I think we had -18 C + the wind chill last winter, but thats about as low as it gets. at the 50m or so piggies tend to be at when shot out of the stand at night, providing the rifle goes bang, all should be ok. But i was wondering about a longer shot, between 150 to 300m+ or so, i do hunt some areas where that would be definate a possibility, i don't suppose the cold would put me out of the vitals on a pig, but it may on a fox or a racoon. I only use synthetic lubricant and haven't had anything freeze up so it wouldn't function yet, I've had sights full of snow though(iron and scope) and icicles hanging off the barrel,

Stalking at the moment is about impossible, everything frozen and the damn leaves give too much sound, but i have found that irratic movement, shuffling my feet, stopping and shuffling some more tends to have the effect that animals wait to see whats comming, I try to make my footsteps sound like a pig or a badger rooting among the leaves, the odd grunt increases the effect. I have to get some whites before any snow comes.

Marc, you never answer your phone, what you doing 17th Dec, fancy a driven boar hunt?


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:09:46 (ZULU)

  I figured I just had to get in on this one:

#1.  Who is paying $400 to get an action trued???  That is ridiculous; it’s normally $300-$350 to have a Blank Installed which includes truing of the receiver.  $100 is more like it for the action truing part. At least that’s what I charge.

#2. It is important that the barrel be Threaded/Chambered on center preferably on a steady rest as far away from the chuck as possible. (To eliminate even the slightest error in the chuck, and give the best mathematical advantage. with a sharp reamer taking time to clean out the chips every .100 or so. .010 on final cut.  (By the way piloted roughers are great and save the life of the finisher.)  

Here is where Lito and some of you are missing the point.

Let’s say we have a perfect barrel. Done exactly right. A perfectly centered chamber, straight/square threads min headspace.

     Depending on what reamer/chamber you use there is built in slop.  (I.e. .338-.344 Nk size. in 308 and the same goes with the body of the chamber.  But when you headspace at the Min Spec's,  as we do when building tack drivers the bolt face is holding the case snug against the shoulder in the chamber.     Now:  If your receiver has threads that are out of alignment. Lugs that are not square, A receiver ring that is uneven (being saw cut by Remington) or the bolt face not square.   Where does this leave your cartridge?????   Its shoved over to one side of the chamber causing the round to become unaligned with the bore.     Hopefully you are all still with me, a drawing would show this better but I am not that computer inclined yet.

This would be why it is important to also completely true all 4 points of contact in your receiver when having a custom tube installed.  You are paying allot of $ for that tube I think you and your Barrel Maker deserve the best launch platform possible.

My $5 Worth

George Out  

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
N.Kansas City, MO , USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:17:16 (ZULU)

Dean, Byron, Chris -

Thanks for the info on Atlanta.  I'm not planning on a "right now" move, though.  Heck, the boy doesn't even have a location for his store yet, maybe in a few weeks.

Looks like there's lots of action within a couple hours driving, which is cool.  Number one son may have his place in the metro area but I'd probably be looking at something more in the sticks for myself.  You know, something I can build my own 1K range on!  That would be velly, velly cool!  :-)


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:10:16 (ZULU)

George. isn't that what i said?

In my experience, the biggest problem with Rem 700's is the way excessive headspace they come with. Of course i only play with em as a hobby these days and haven't worked on near as many as you, but i've had good results removing the factory barrel, trueing the lugs and reciever end and the bolt face,(most only needed work on the lugs but some had the reciever faced off at funny angles to the centre line of the action, as if some one just held the reciever in the chuck and took the end off instead of using a mandrel) taking the barrel shoulder back (so the barrel screws in more) in order to have the case seated under slight pressure when the bolt is closed, and yes, putting the factory barrel back in, ok, they are a bitch to clean, will never shoot as good as a good barrel, but for guys who can't or wont pay for a good barrel, especialy if all they want is an accurate hunting rifle, the difference between out of the box, and accurised is about 50% smaller groups 100% better consitency.Most( by no means all) Rem 700's i have played with would hold between 1"and 1.5"out the box with factory ammo, sorting the reciever, minimising the head space but keeping the factory barrel will half that,I currently have 3 Rem 700's, 2 have Heym barrels and one has a Rem factory tube ( that i begged in order to swap from 22.250 to 308) The Heym barrels way out class the factory thing,( both in accuracy and ease of cleaning), but even it will hold 1/2"groups (5 shot) with factory hunting ammo, when i (in the distant future) have some spare cash (and aren't buying bricks tiles and DIY tools with it) I'd like to rebarrel it to 450 Marlin, but I wonder if it will feed ok? People can knock the Rem 700, and yes the factory certainly do have Quality Control issues to sort out, but it is the yard stick by which many many other rifles are judged, you can get a shed load of parts and accessories for it, there are many smiths building excellent rifles on it and it is a handy and good looking rifle. Custom actions are just more of an investment, rifles built on them tend to hold thier value more than those built on an accurised factory action. I think if i was going to start again and buy the tooling, i'd probably go for a Sako action over the Remington, but as i have all i need to sort the Rem700's out, i'll just keep using them(untill we get the 5 gun limit).

Guy asking about building on that Sako Forester action, shouldn't be a problem, McMillan has stocks (as far as i know) and getting it worked on or rebarreled should be no problem either.

Paul Cockerham - rings on way.

Marc, I'm buggered if i found that bolt stop yet.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:42:38 (ZULU)

  Peter Lincoln...........I just found one of those rare gems, go here    

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:53:45 (ZULU)

We were all wrong !  In the latest copy of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement magazine you see that the Rem 700 based .280 Ackley Improved  with a Loopy 3.5x10x50 is "Tactical Rifle Perfection!"   Ok I guess we all have to sell our .308's, 300's, 6.5's and everything else to get one of these new sticks or were not en-vouge.  How could we have known?  How, How, How?

Joe M.- One of my hunting rifles is a S&W 1500 (AKA Howa 1500) in 30-06.  I have about 1000 rds of factory ammo or so on it and it is holding up just fine.  

Take care.

Joe S.


Joe S. <>
Dago, Cali, US of A - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:53:55 (ZULU)


You got mail re: Swedish Mauser target riffles.....



RichS. <>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:59:05 (ZULU)

*****Sniper Country Rifle Update*****  

The deadline has come and gone,  There will be 50 rifles built.  2 rifles will be auctioned off here in the future. (#1 and #2).  

If you didnt get your money in the Mail by today, Im Sorry.

  Stocks are on Order, Barrels are already in production and 50 Recievers are on the way.  

Look to have all of them compleated by the end of May, (fingers crossed) so anyone wanting to shoot them in any of the spring shoots that are poping up will be ready.  

By the way, going against recent opinions these rifles will have compleatly trued actions.  LOL

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:23:13 (ZULU)

>>People can knock the Rem 700<<

Yes. And there's a reason "big green" is a very appropriate synonym now. Somewhat reminiscent of a festering bowl of dog snot, eh?

>>and yes the factory certainly do have Quality Control issues to sort out<<

That's putting it mildly, but OK.

>>but it is the yard stick by which many many other rifles are judged<<

Unless you believe what people say about the Great American Riflemans Rifle, the Winchester pre-'64 model 70.

>>you can get a shed load of parts and accessories for it, there are many smiths building excellent rifles on it and it is a handy and good looking rifle.<<

Reminds me of a discussion I had with a great engine builder about the Chevrolet versus Chrysler debates. Chrysler has never had the after market parts base that Chevrolet does. I was informed the reason for that was "with a Chrysler, you generally don't need them". If there's a world of doo-dads out there, odds are there's a reason. Just look at what you get with a stock Ruger 10/22, and all the doodads available for that rifle. Unless I am mistaken, the top speed in a sanctioned NASCAR race is still held by Chrysler.

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:24:18 (ZULU)

And while I'm posting, hey Marty, what's the odds on getting those guys to chamber their 452 American in 17HMR?

And out of curiousity, what's the smallest case capacity standard chambered 17 cal centerfire cartridge? Those 17s are fun, but buying cartridges just goes against my grain.

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:42:33 (ZULU)

To True or not to true...that is a dumb ass question!

I was going to post a bandwidth encompassing dissertation but I read George’s post

And all I can add is if you don’t want to do it right, that’s ok, you will be one less person we have to outshoot.

You tune a car, some people spend more money on…get this… Harley’s! than they do on guns…weird!!!

So if you don’t want to trick out your gun, ok buy me, I will wave to you from the winners circle.

Marty <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:46:27 (ZULU)


The 6.5 X 08 Obermeyer data I promised some of you goes in the mail in the morning.

Just "pontificating" a bit. Cost of shooting: Say $600.00 for a premium barrel and installation. With a service life of 1500 rounds it's gonna cost you 40 cents per round in barrel life. With a life of 10,000 rounds it drops to 6 cents per rounds. Which just goes to show that the .308 does it's job economically and that most of us are cheapskates...:-)

Sako .338 goes out tomorrow. Hate to see it go, but plans for a repeater dictate otherwise.

Oregon rain/wind has started in earnest, today, in the Oregon coast mountain range. Gotta love it...

Oregon: "Where subguns are watercooled"...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:47:03 (ZULU)

Marty & George,

Thanks for your comments.... Much appreciated

Michael <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:02:02 (ZULU)

Jaeger, i knew there was a reason i liked the cherokee jeep, its chrysler right? I am though... ( Uncle George from Oz will turn in his grave) about to buy a Mitsubishi.

Marty, talking of tricking out guns, you ever get them alloy rings made i asked you about?


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:37:32 (ZULU)

Peter, on the Jeep: That's now a Diamler. The I-6 on the Jeep is phenominal. The Cherokee is a framed truck with a well deserved good reputation, the Grand a unibody car. Additionally, the unibody comes with an 8 that is less than phenominal in all ways. There's someone on this site that has lots of experience with the Mitsus. Ask and ye shall receive.

Now how about some good 17 cal info!

We now return to your regularly scheduled shooting program

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:56:44 (ZULU)

Just heared that a shipment of scuds was held up on its way from Korea to Yemen..

Funny, the 4 space craft i fly for a living are also Daimler/Chrysler..OK who is the Mitsubishi guy? and whats a hard top for a SWB  MK 2 Pajero cost, I'm looking at a V6 with a soft top, ( rather have the solid top but its in nice condition, has a warne winch and is cheap).

Anybody shot any/many game animals with the Hornady SST?


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:13:01 (ZULU)

Joe M, you have mail, if you have not got it already.

As for the war non-fighting/career saving BS, that's why the officers should just give the order to execute and let us enlisted types take it from there.  See no evil, hear no evil and you can still honestly tell the political scum that you're not aware of any terrorists being killed in ambushes or raids;-)

Joe S, that gun rag got it just about right, except it's a 280AI with a 10x Mk4M1 and it's based on a pre-64 M70, which still is the best rifle ever factory produced.  Hopefully I'll get it soon before some other gun rag rips off one of my other ideas.    

On NASCAR speedsters, the record is held by Bill Elliot in a Ford T-bird back before restrictor plates.  Something like 212mph at Tallega IIRC.  There was recently a stock block Hemi Superbird(might have been a Daytona) that reset the flying mile at 236mph or so.  Stock parts in the engine and stock body with some duct tape.  Super Stock '68 Cudas and Darts are still the fastest SS cars.  High 8's at over 150mph in the 1/4mile.  Don't even bother trying a Fuel class without a Hemi based motor.  You'd have to be a rich lunatic to even get the engine to stay together.  Last non-Chrysler based Hemi to win a Fuel Event was in '67, and that was a 427 SOHC Ford, which had hemispherical combustion chambers, so it was a rip off job too. Although it was a nicely done rip-off, it made plus/minus 647hp stock as a crate motor with a 4bbl.  Between that and the Hemi, that was when NASCAR slammed the door on the engine wars of the late 60's.  S/F...Ken M      

Ken M <>
Occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:15:08 (ZULU)

Marty:  "And all I can add is if you don’t want to do it right, that’s ok, you will be one less person we have to outshoot...So if you don’t want to trick out your gun, ok buy (sic) me, I will wave to you from the winners circle."

Given any reasonably good rifle, the greatest source of variability is - by a HUGE margin - the shooter.

Krieger/Stolle and a guy who reads catalogs vs. stock Winnie and guy who does his dry-firing and has internalized his wind reads and shooting manuals.

Ask me a tough one.

"The crate isn't important."______________________________Baron von Richtoven

"I am the music."_______________________________________________________Niragasi

"It ain't the car, it's the driver."__________________________Richard Petty

I like when the guys with the $6,000 sticks offer to help me get on the paper.  It truly brings me pleasure.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:15:55 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

"We dealt with that in Alaska shootin' Bou off of snowshoes."

What wuz dem Caribou doin' on snowshoes? ;-)


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:19:24 (ZULU)



   Where is Blodgett? I drive to Corvallis pretty frequently these days, and wonder if we might hook up some Sunday afternoon.

   Hope all's well,


Jim Liles <>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:53:28 (ZULU)

CDC:  "Krieger/Stolle and a guy who reads catalogs vs. stock Winnie and guy who does his dry-firing and has internalized his wind reads and shooting manuals."  

Where does the guy with the Krieger/Stolle who does his dry-firing and has iternalized his wind reads and shooting manuals fall?????

I would say a cut above!!!! and definatly in the winners circle!!!!

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:54:04 (ZULU)

Jaeger, the 17 Squril, 22 hornet shortened and Imp necked to 17cal.

Marty himself built a CZ 452 in 17 HMR but CZ itself has yet to follow his lead.  I think he is working on it.

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:59:30 (ZULU)


 They wuz a-gittin' away!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 06:09:31 (ZULU)

So long as we're quoting,, and talking racing,, sorta,,

"All the money in the world won't make a pig into a race car,,,,, but it'll make a damn fast pig."  author?  Some guy who spent to much souping up a Chevette I bet ;))

I don't know about all the truing,, but I like to know it's been done.  Will it make my Remichester shoot as good as a Nesika, a Stolle Etc??  Maybe,, but it'll still be a pig.  Course,, my pig has a 7-3 record for winning it's class in the shoots it enters,,, so it'd guess it'd be considered "A damn fast pig" ;))


We drove Cherokees before we got Sierra's.  The heaters broke, the HVAC controls boke, the front diffs broke, the springs wore out, the seats wore out, the door panels wore out, they used a  lot of gas and they are extremely hard to get in and out of if you're using the back seat for anything.  They get real loose when it's wet and the tires get eaten about every 30K.  In their defense,, that I-6 always started and when the when you needed the 4H,, the things could have climbed a tree.  

The model you're speaking of doesn't sell here,, must be a euroweenie car.  Try and do a US crossref and I'll see if I can look up the softtop costs,, and also a hardtop so you don't actualy freeze to death on the way to work. ;))  Most likely it's the Wrangler.  Can you say COLD floorboard?  I knew you could......


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 12:26:19 (ZULU)

George:  I re-read my last post and realize that the language is too imprecise to have much real meaning.

Of course a first rate guy with first rate gear has the best chance.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:14:47 (ZULU)

"All the money in the world won't make a pig into a race car,,,,, but it'll make a damn fast pig."  author?  Some guy who spent to much souping up a Chevette I bet ;))

Had a guy back in the 80's put a hemi in a Gremlin. Boy did that thing get squirly.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:49:40 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a favorite all time Xmas Carol.

White Trash Xmas

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:51:12 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a favorite all time Xmas Carol.

White Trash Xmas

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:51:12 (ZULU)


 I drive a Durango for a reason. It's what gets the job done for me.

I need ya'lls help for a second. Please write you congressman about the ninth circuit court of appeals ruling in the peoples republic of Kalifornia. Their trying to say the 2nd amendment ain't for us just the states to have a militia.I wrote mine.

Play nice.


festus <>
Anchorage, AK, finally snowing - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:13:39 (ZULU)


  I got out to shoot again last night. Two nice days in a row, very rare out here. I wanted to get my data to 1000yds but it got dark on me and I only made it to 800.

  I was discouraged to say the least. After the 200yds groups I thought I really had the load for this rifle. I started at 300yds and put 5 into a sloppy group around 2.5" I then went to 3 shot groups on out to 800yds.

 400,500,600yds weren't bad but nothing to brag about. But at 700 and 800 it really opened up just making MOA at 700yds and over MOA at 800yds. The thing that really concerns me is the vertical stringing. I was shooting at paper plates at 600 to 800yds and at 800 I put one in the bottom of the plate one in the top and one a couple of inches above the plate.

 All my 260 loads have always had very littly vertical stringing. I don't know if this is just the load or if I need to be looking at something else. I only have 15 142s left and I loaded them last night to hopefully get back out today to see what they do. The only problem is the wind is suppose to blow 10 to 15 today but I still should be able to tell if I get vertical stringing or not. I did have some mirage to contend with at 700 and 800 so maybe this was part of it too but I just have this feeling its not. Got any great ideas??

Pat <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:26:00 (ZULU)

....for you guys that are watching the big "Eastern" storm.....I be the dude right in the middle of the huge ICE storm !!!!  Waiting for the power to go out at anytime.....

May be a good day to unload "Alice(s)" and sort through my kit(s) !!!! Clean all the scope lenses, douse the triggers....important stuff !!!

George do it right and have my full permission to use all your wisdom while assembling my SC stick !!!!!


(hope the wife remembered to fuel up the generator and put an extra log on the woodstove......BEFORE she left for work !!!!)

JRMoore <>
Northern, Virginy, USofA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:38:02 (ZULU)

Hang on, what happend to working hours regs? I did a 12 hr night shift, got to go home for 3 hours, back in for a meeting, and now im wondering if it is worth driving home to get 2 hours before i have to start the next 12 hour shift?? can i still think straight? I know this shit happens in airtraffic control, thats why i hate flying. ahhhh, and the range is open this afternoon...

Chris, Mistubishi Pajero, ( its called a Shogun in the UK, or it used to be) its like a 4WD Zero, without bombs or guns('till i get it rigged) apparently a tough little SUV. This one is a soft top, its cheap ( about 50% less than the going price cos i know the guy and he wants to sell), but i know some anti hunting green ass hole will slit the top in no time. bolt on hard top is $1500 here, I'm thinking , buy it, remove winch, part ex it for a hard top version and make money on it. Or put a hard top on it and stay with a car that i know the history of?

Marty the ring size depends on if S&B come up with a 4-16x42 PMII, maybe a 34mm, or i might just say sod them and buy a Zeiss with a 30mm tube, no rush, let you know for definate soon.

sod it, i need me bed, .. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:47:57 (ZULU)

Hi guys,

Ken M.-  Your'e right about all the NASCAR stuff.  I used to work for Hendrick Motorsports, and building restrictor plate engines is hell.  THey burn up all kinds of stuff.  Cars would definitely be pushing 240mph on the bigger tracks if they could run without the plates.

Lito.-  Marty doesn't do the SIMRAD adaptors for the old M40-A1 setup, just so you know.  Says it's a lot of weight for two screws to hold, and he's right.

Mike Miller-  How did the Marines put the SIMRAD on the M40-A1 anyway?  Any ideas where I might be able to get the setup?  Not that I need it, just thought it would be cool to have.

Semper Fi


Steve <>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 15:02:35 (ZULU)


Verticle stringing?  If it was most other guys I'd ask if the parallax was good for up down and as well as side to side.  I've seen some scopes recently that will remove one or the other but not both at the same time.  BUT,, I'll not as you that mang,,,,,

You're primers may be squirelly.  Have you ran this load through the chrono lately?

Oh,, and what's this about 2 non windy days in SoDak?  Maybe you hit the sause a bit hard and that the problem ;))) You mustta ment the jeep wasn't rockin' yet huh ;))

Still sub moa at 800 is good IMHO,, but I'm not that good a shot,, so that just be MHO...


They don't sell those here.  You guys get some cool sheet that we never see.  I'd like to get the euro ABT kit and ECU/boost controller for my Passat ;)


Chris <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 15:30:18 (ZULU)


     On the sst's, I shot a 230lbs pig with my 270, using 130gr sst at about 250 yards.  Bullet went through both shoulders (almost blowing both front legs off and made mush out of the lungs, exit hole was only 2x the entrance wound size.  If the pig would have been kind enough to stand on flat ground she would have dropped in her tracks, instead she flipped over backwards and rolled down to the bottem of the canyon, dead as a doornail when I got down to her.  I wouldn't hesitate to use them on anything up to mule deer, big pig size.

Somebody mentioned Corvalis, I used to live there.  There is a redhead at the Vet school that is pretty good in the sack, but will stab you in the back as soon as she gets the chance...


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:32:15 (ZULU)


First: Yes...yes...yes... its always the shooter, but Tubb won't show up to a match with a stock Remmy he bought at the big K and try to compete.

Second: If it’s the shooter then why do you guys get so honked on every new caliber that some nut invents????  Could it be because Tubb won with the 6.5 X 284?  I bet it wasn’t on a stock action.

I was trying to avoid this but…

Let me break it down:

Pre 64 Winchesters…..Suck! always did, always will hard to clean up but not impossible.

Post 64 Winchesters…..Suck even more!

Savages, an engineering triumph, proved that a gun can be built with very little machining,assembles like a puzzle, aesthetically suck, functionally they are OK, except for the thing they call a trigger.

Mauser, the top of the suck pile! Now before you all get ready to flame me let me step into my Nomex underpants and continue. The Mauser is where it all started, so was the Model T. the Mauser was made from anything that looked, smelled or tasted like steel,

Quality control was at best poor, then you over engineer everything so that when it blows up (shitty ammo) the operator won’t be hurt…badly.

Mausers feel smooth because the case hardening is as hard as glass, good idea? That’s a matter of opinion. Why are Mausers so popular? Its really simple. After WWII many GI’s used their GI bill to go to gunsmithing or machinists school. (Machinists tend to have one of 2 hobbies, guns or steam engines.) Up until very very recently when you went to gunsmithing school you were given a Mauser and told that you hold in you hand the Holy grail of actions. The fact is after WWII you could buy a brand new, only dropped once M98 for as little as $3.00! Don’t believe me? look in a 1950’s American Rifleman magazine. In the 60’s they went up to $20. They were the perfect action to chop, port, polish, overbore, stretch, shorten, whatever! It was the perfect student action, everything needed to be fixed or modified. If you totally scrap it out your out $3-$20 bucks.

Lets see…what else???

Howa, Good copy of a Remmy, bad trigger, ugly bolt shroud.

Nesika, great copy of a Remmy, tight tolerances, too tight for a working gun.

Beretta Mato, copy of a Remmy, Magazine sucks, has a Mauser extractor and a Whinny Safety, discontinued.

Stolle, another great copy of a Remmy, not a gun for the real world, just target shooting.

Sako’s, good guns, kind of an upgraded Remmy, for some reason not used by shooters like us or target shooters just hunters (TRG 21/22-41 not withstanding)

Remington M700 The perfect action…for manufacture! Designed with fast, inexpensive production in mind. Over the years quality has been up and down. Interestingly, if you look at the above list, most of the actions are Remington copies…Hmmmmm what’s that about?

Truing/ accurising /blueprinting, what ever you want to call it will make it a better tool.

Accuracy is nothing more that consistency, and accurising adds that consistency to the rifle.

The above is my opinion, my professional opinion I am an engineer by trade, I have been in the firearms industry professionally for over 20 years, I have designed rifles and actions that are for sale today. I have even designed cartridges that are in production today, I have studied every action that is commercially available and have owned or still own most of them. If you want to know what the best action is, I have to ask what’s it going to be used for. One size does NOT fit all. The best action from a quality/function point of view is probably the M1903A3 Springfield.

Best all around action, the Remmy, downfalls? Yes! Needs an M16 style extractor and the trigger can be a problem. But overall works very well or can be made to work very well.

Last comment, the accuracy International rifles are superb, but heavy, expensive and big.

P.S. I hate the term “Blue printing” it is not one I use, even Remington doesn’t make them to print, I have a print, I know of what I speak.

Ok guys…Flame ON!

Badger out

Marty <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:36:35 (ZULU)

.17 Hummer

CZ-USA is selling the .17 HMR as we write.

There are 2 versions, the CZ 452 American and the CZ 452 Varmint.

These are identical to the same models in .22Win mag sold by CZ.

The Varmints will be available next week from Acusport Inc in Ohio.



Marty <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:47:47 (ZULU)

Chris, on the Cherokee...I have a 1996 with many miles on it...some of it off road. I haven't had any of the problems you had, except the HVAC control issue.  The 258 cu. / er um 4.0 liter six is a great motor but does burn some fuel. I had an old CJ7 / 258 which I used to pull many a Chevy, Chrysler or Ford out of the muck...sometimes sideways...gotta love 4 low and 33in mudders.

Both the Cherokee and Grand DO NOT take rear impacts as well as other full sized SUVs (Ford, Chevy, Chrysler)... folks in the back seat are at risk.  I see a lot of accidents.  Don't believe that pile of dung about safety ratings, My field experience is much broader a study and suggest the whole crash test process is VERY misleading.  CDC could probably elaborate scientifically on why crashing one SUV into a block of cement does not accurately predict real world outcomes...

Bottom line, look for a frame but some 'give' in a vehicle...Seatbelts are MUCH more important than airbags (i think airbags are "full of hot air" - pun intended)... anti-lock brakes save a lot of folks too.. I've seen a few accidents with older full size Mercedes sedans which held up great in high speed frontal hits...killed everyone inside due to the 100% transmitted impact (all unrestrained).

OK, gun talk.

How does one establish the "target" chamber depth for a specific cartridge loading... For example, if you wanted to specify a match chamber for a custom .308 rifle firing a non-standard round (unusually long or short length to ogive)... I've measured the mag well length and established this as my max cartridge length from base to tip... now I guess I need to subtract the distance from the tip of the projectile to the ogive, but the true ogive is dependant on the dimension of the point on the barreling where the rifling begins (I think). I guess this would be simple if a .308 barrel was actually .308, but it isn't...correct?  How does one establish the EXACT ogive on a bullet where it will intersect with a given barrel width? I'm looking for "best technique". The round in question is a VLD type, so loading real close to the lands is required.


medicjim <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:49:06 (ZULU)


Good to see you posting mang.  

Got a question for ya...  Do you think the Remington receivers would benefit from an integral recoil lug?  If so,, why don't more companies go to the integral lug?  

It would seem that the integral lug takes away one more potential spot for induced error in the machining process.  Am I off base here?


Chris <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:55:42 (ZULU)

Marty:  You don't post often enough.  Neither does George Gardner.  

That will have to do as my flame.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:59:42 (ZULU)

Marty wrote:

"P.S. I hate the term “Blue printing” it is not one I use, even Remington doesn’t make them to print, I have a print, I know of what I speak."

I used to add to my drawings in the space provided for "Spec.": MIL-TFD-41.  When asked what that spec. was I'd say, "Make It Like The F#$king Drawing For Once".  I got a big kick out of it but the guys from the model shop didn't laugh too much.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 17:01:14 (ZULU)


Our jeeps were 98 cherokees, work fleet vehicles, that got at least 50K per year of everyday abuse.  Ever get everything in the back to fly into the rear seat?  Go airborne for more than .5 seconds and it all comes forward upon landing ;))  We still have two of them,,, but I much prefer the 1500 series trucks.  They pull better and have stood up to the abuse better,, and most importantly,, I can get my fat ass in and out of them. Course,, I'll drive whatever the company wnats to pay for.


Chris <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 17:22:05 (ZULU)


 Yea, its REALLY unusual for out here!! I don't hardly know how to shoot. I keep reaching for the windage knob(HA) I have cronographed this load with my other rifles and the SD and ES have always been small and when I shoot it at long range my vertical is always .5 MOA or under. I have found that a bad extreme spread will cause the vertical stringing most of the time.

 The only thing different is that I am using some Rem primers instead of Federals because the Rem are to loose in the cases and I hate to waste good primers fire forming cases. Like I said too, I was getting some mirage at 700 and 800 and I guess this could account for some of it.

 Its just that for 3 shot groups the 260 has always been under MOA out to a 1000yds, if I do my part, and I have shot in a lot worse mirage than yesterday. It probably could just be my piss poor shooting too.(HA) Thanks for the thoughts!!

Pat <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 17:42:08 (ZULU)

Pete, about the sst's: We Dutchies used the sst's interlock last Scotland and you saw the result of it.

Marco, supriced you want a 6,5 x .284 barrel for your TRG. Getting scared for my old 21 ?


Val Sessink <>
Netherlands - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 18:01:11 (ZULU)

Marty, next tome you're in San Antonio, look me up.  I'd like to have a beer with you.  I like beer with roasted meat......

Howas----ugly bolt shrouds?  Bad triggers?  Well, mebbe, but they shoot like nobody's business, right outta da box.  I passed up a brand new one at the gun show last weekend.  It was .308, had the typical ugly-assed plastic stock (like mine) and priced brand new at $325.  Now, I've always believed that pretty is as pretty (and/or cheaply)does. Cops don't get paid a whole lot, and I'm one of the cheapest SOB's around, so if I can get what I got for what I got in it, I think the bolt shroud is just absolutely gorgeous.  Yeah, she's got a wart or two, and just a little extra girth in a couple places, but she's got the tightest little......groups I've ever shot.  And, after shooting a glock, I couldn't tell if the trigger is bad or not. Better'n my NM AR, and that's no slouch.  

C'mon down, I'll let you dance with her, and we'll have that beer.

It's now, if you want to expound at length, but I can't seem to get my address and password changed.

Ugly bolt shroud....sheesh.

Howas rule

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 18:28:18 (ZULU)

Chris, my cherokee was a 2.1 diesel( Renault engine from the Espace), cheap to run and reliable until the damn hose went on me, it would still be going if i had noticed. It wasn't very powerfull but it did 35 miles to a UK gallon. It had 80T km on the clock ( but it had had that since the thing stopped counting in 1997) probably had between 350 -400 T KM by the time it packed in.

Marty, well said, thats what i meant with yard stick.

Val nice to see you posting, I thought you guys used Bal Tips, ah i better avoid using the SST's then, you lot tended to miss !!!!!!! ha. Jon B and i where discussing meat dammage with Bal Tips, I had heared that the SST's where a bit harder, what was the dammage like, i can't remember('course you guys are 308 win and he's pushing em faster in the 300WM) I have bought a bunch of Hornady Light mag with SST's for my 30-06, but as yet have only fired a few at a target, I was wondering about how they performed, If they(in 270) exit large ish pigs then they are probably better penetrators than the Interlock, My mate Geoff doesn't get an exit on pigs much bigger than 50Kg using the 270 interlocks, but i guess they expand rapidly at close range as they are still traveling fast.I've got only good things to say about the interlock, (exept the tips get dammaged in the magazine) but i only use it for deer.

Whats wrong with the trigger on the Howa? maybe i had a different one with mine bieng an RWS 89, I thought the rifle was kinda pretty, even the bolt shroud, "Thats and awfully nice rifle to be takin'bear huntin'" is what i was told, he was right to, i ruined the stock.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 19:10:43 (ZULU)

Delurking (learning more being quiet):

Spanish MOD photos of the NK-Yemen maritime intercept at:

SC content:

The Babelfish translation of this page:

...says the "Tiradores" (translated as gunners) fired on the masts, I guess to clear the way for the fast-rope guys, but it sure looks like they used big guns to do this:

I'm just a FNG, so I need to ask: Are those ghillie shorts?

<edited to fix line spacing>


Mike Brogley <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 19:31:11 (ZULU)

Pete, the sst's interlock perform more than good and I didn't miss.( S did, but he has a trg 22 now aswell ( oeha ). You, Jon and me had the same zero, where we testfired the rifle.

Marco testfired the sst's and shot a 9 cm group at 300 meters. That's why we dicided to use them.

The fox, had an exit were I could put my fist in. Both, it's shoulders we gone, while hitting him from a distance at 200 mts, right over the valley, on the slope.

The deers only had an exit about the size of an Euro, but inside everything was shattered. It even hit a rip on the first deer, but the bone had no chance. The second I shot through the spinal at his nek.

Think, according to your 30-06 and Jon's 300 Win, they should perform the same.


Val Sessink <>
Netherlands - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 19:55:55 (ZULU)

Remingtons Rule the roost!!

If you are going to have a new Match barrel installed it like any others has to be trued!! The front of the action as well as the recoil lug MUST be square. The action threads MUST be trued to the action. The recoil lug inside the action MUST be squared. The bolt face and recoil lugs MUST be squared.This would apply to any action that you were having a new match barrel installed on.

I have worked on some of the custom actions and most are true but not all. I do not belive in installing any after market extractor as they cannot be installed in the proper place and I cannot find a reason as the Rem. extractor will pull the rim off of a tightly stuck case and what more can you ask for. I do not belive in using a roughing reamer as I belive you can get an out of square chamber using one. As for Remingtons QA I cannot find any major problems and I work on a lot of them. Most that are being made now are better than they were years ago.

Just mu two cents worth.

Now ducking for cover.


Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:07:41 (ZULU)

Speaking of "international" SUV's,

What's the Nissan SUV that the UN is using right now?  You see it all the time on the news with the weapons inspectors etc.  It looks pretty cool and tougher than anything Nissan sells here.



RichS. <>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:08:49 (ZULU)


  I tried to answer you questions on the 260 but it bounced the e.mail back to me. I won the barrel at the D&L shoot so I don't know what the cost would be. I belive it is a 4 groove 1-8 twist. I use the Lapua 308 because I got 1500rds of once fired brass so I don't need to buy any. I have the best accuracy with 37 to 38grs of Varget and can't seat them out as far as I would like sometimes because of the mag on the Remingtons. Most like some jump anyway from what I have found.


 The best way to do it is  to send a loaded "Dummy" round to your smith and tell him you want it to touch the rifling with a OAL of that round. Thats what I did with my 308.

Pat <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:32:02 (ZULU)


An integral lug would be a great idea, the fewer interfaces the better,

but it would need to be welded on or made from a much larger piece of material.

A Remmy starts out life as a 1 3/8 “ steel bar, then is turned to 1.35”.


MIL-TFD-41, I love it!  I feel your pain. I have been on both sides of the drawing.

Mr. Hunt:

Howa’s are great, right out of the box. I loved them back when they were S&W 1500’s and 1700’s.  Bolt shroud is still ugly. Sorry


You are right on the extractor, after markets don’t eject well. But if the ejector was moved…its genius!  I only suggest an upgrade for odd cal’s and I still don’t like the riveted extractor.

I think the high number pre letter Remmy’s were the best. The E’s sucked and the G’s are much better.



Badger Six out!

Marty <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:47:15 (ZULU)

Rick S, that be the Patrol, Nissan Partol, a mate has one and he thinks its great. Mitsubishi has a better quality and reliability record.I have another mate who works for the UN in Eiritrea ( i can spell it but its in Afrika some where) and he says the Toyota landcruisers are a crock of shit, swears by his landrover 110's and the unimog.(and says that the UN is a con racket only out for the benefit of poorer afrikan states and the wallets of fat PC western would be politicians and chairwarmers.

Val, i was only pulling yer plonker, the reason for the misses was buck fever, first time hunt etc, I won't pat you guys on the back often, ( cos you use funny rifle and even funnier scopes) and that 9cm 300m group is 3x the size of what my 30-06 shoots with factory hunting fodder, but for a first time hunt in Scotland you all did pretty well, of course you all had some help from Stuart, but that wasn't a bad thing. Hunting in a 2 man team was certainly fun, remember the doe we came real close too? I would love to hunt with the same guys, + Jon B again next year,( Pressack says hi bye the way) I'd also love to hunt up there in the snow. I wish it was all for free and we could do it once a month. i will certainly never forget the looks on your guys faces after the first successes, it was nice.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:10:04 (ZULU)


Comment and a serious question.

I agree,  the fewer tools in the chamber the better.  I can tell a difference since switching methods.....ALL.....whatever works for you is fine......there are unquestioned experts here but Im not one of those.

Now the serious question on trued actions being a requirement;

I have a 22-250, Remington 700, that's been rebarreled 2X.  Both barrels were Shilen match select, one in 9 twist standard config and the other in 4 groove 8 twist ratchet.

Both barrels shoot into the low 0.2's and high 0.1's with regularity from a bench in good conditions.  

Accuracy at longer ranges has been phenominal with both tubes.  

1000 yard accuracy .....well.....I won't tell unless someone wants to witness it but it's better than good....and it's consistant.

The action has not been touched, recoil lug not ground, lugs not lapped. Bolt face is untouched.  It's nowhere near square. Even has the standard trigger and is in a (bedded) BDL stock Why does it shoot?  

I'm frankly a good enough shooter to tell this is a good rifle.  It does not follow the conventional wisdom of Things Which Must Be Done and I'm at a loss as to why.

Mike inTexas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:10:50 (ZULU)

Hey Val, good to see you on the Roster.  I cant remember seeing any deer shot by you in Scotland ;-).

Nice to hear some feed back about the SSTs.  Been tempted for a while now.  The Nosler BTs were causing a bit more damage than I would have liked on roe, but were OK on larger species.  I have been using factory stuff for a while now, till I get my cases preped.  They are Federal 180Gr using the Sierra Pro-Hunter.  Man they cause serious damage for shoulder and even chest shots.  The importer of Hornady in the UK is also (was also) an importer of Nosler.  The woman on the phone said that the vast majority of their customers were going over to Hornady.  People were finding the SSTs were just as accurate, better on deer and CHEAPER than the Noslers.  They were considering ceasing importing Nosler bullets at that time.  If anyone else has experience of the SSTs I would sure appreciate some info.  I also have 400, 180Gr Remington Cor-Lokt that I picked up for 5 per hundred.  Anyone had much to do with them on small deer out of a 300WM?  May be I should just get a smaller gun ;-)

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:18:12 (ZULU)

Pete, sure wished the hunting was a little bit more cheaper. Sure, the snow whil give a new dimension to it. And when you're going, leave some spare for me and Marco too :)

Count me in then, but my next trip is in the Mid-East. Have to visit some old friends from the time I lived there. Has been a while, sinds I've seen them. Guess, I own them a visit and a copple of beers at sun set :).

Jon, we tried the Noslers aswell, but thet didn't perform the accurasy as the sst's did and the second minus was: they were way out of price, compaired to their "promesses".

If you thinking of reloading some: we tried to go up till 98-99% of the max load. Mostly it's working well, as we do target shooting for long distance aswell. The propellent we use, is mainly Vithavouri, which is has a far price and good.

primers: I use Fed and CCI for my 308. There is no difference in shooting them, so what will comes first, take.

Let me know the results.


Val Sessink <>
Netherlands - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:45:52 (ZULU)

Jon, what you should get is.. me some fish and chips and get em in overnite delivery,

I've use the Rem core lockts, they where ok, pretty accurate, i did have one come apart on me once though, maybe it was dammaged or faulty. I can't say enough good about Hornady, thier ammo is the reason i don't hand load, My 30-06 shoots thier light mag hunting ammo( Interlock bullets) as if it is match ammo, its bloody fantastic. Its about as fast as your 300, ( going on the trajectory figures).The interlocks dammage to much meat for your job though, i figure the SST should be a bit better. I would be working my deer with the commission Sako if i was you and using the heavey beast for targets. if you put a picatinny on the Sako you can swap yer NXS from one to the other. ( i was seeing about a torque wrench wasn't i, hmm i need to get a better memory)

Been having an email conversation with Bisley Tiger, he shoots on some of the army ranges that i used to know oh so well, had another memory lane trip, i seem to be doing that a lot lately, is that a sign of age?

Val, what do you wanna go over there for? they don't produce whiskey, have a bunch of suicide bombers playing havock and do they have deer?


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:53:32 (ZULU)

Hey Gunners,

I got a question for the Army Sniper types on the DR. Does the Army still use M24 SWS chambered in .308, or did they rebarrel them all in .300WM? It is my understanding that the M24's are all chambered in .308. Sorry to bother you guys with such a silly question, but couldnt think of a faster way to find the answer.

Best Regards,


William Bledsoe <>
outback, ky, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 22:10:24 (ZULU)

Talking of your memory Pete, don't forget that 3.4mm (or was it 3.2mm) reamer you were going to get for me as well as a price for that adjustable torque wrench.

If I only used the big gun for targets it would only see the light of day a couple of times a year.  Suppose that would make the barrel last longer though.

Thanks Marty, I've gone all paranoid now.  Just looked at my Remmy and its an 'E'.  Does that mean I need to get rid of it and get a new one? ;-)


Jon Beardsley <>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 22:14:07 (ZULU)

OOOPS !!!!!. see the news, ? DUH !

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 22:38:25 (ZULU)

looks like been a quiet night now.

Jon, Ive got a C, ( its the 30-06.

an E that was a 22.250 but is now a 308.

and another E that was bought as a new action.

believe it or not, i ain't been past the tool suppliers yet, i will make a point of it this weekend.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 23:02:06 (ZULU)

As long as Marty, Jerry Rice and George Gardner are weighing in:  From the end user's point of view, what is a "good" rifle action?  What factors should be considered?  How should those factors be weighed?  Why would one design be "better" than the other?  Does anyone care to elaborate on the reasons for their preference for one design over another?

I don't find much practical difference between the Remington and the post '64 Winchester.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 02:09:57 (ZULU)

Is anyone else getting a "runtime error" when trying to load the Emporium, or is it just me?



Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:22:36 (ZULU)


Same thing.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:32:39 (ZULU)

Don, Its not just you, I'm getting it too.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:35:03 (ZULU)


Good day off. Got the .338 Lapua ready to ship, 6.5 X 08 data ready to mail, and a bunch of admin work completed for work. Nice to have that done.

Rifle Actions: "The Germans make the best hunting rifle, the British the best battle rifle, and the Americans the best target rifle". Can't remember who the quote is attributed to, but it discussed the Mauser 98, the Lee-Enfield, and the Springfield.

Mauser '98: Elegant in it's simplicity and strenth. Most folks don't  understand all the variations, and there-in lies much of the mis-understanding. The '98 is my absolute favorite for hunting rifles. Nothing feeds as smoothly. I have two FN '98 commercial manufacture large rings and two small ring Mexicans in my safe as I write this.

The Mexican's have been surface ground and re-heat treated to take care of any "softness". GREAT sporter actions for the medium cartridges....308, 7X57, 6.5 X 284 etc. Is really a "medium" length action. Comes in 4 oz. less than the Winchester Featherweight action.

Lee-Enfield: Not controlled feed, but I grew up with a Golden State Arms conversion with a Bishop stock and a 4X scope. Can't tell you how many blacktails fell to the 180 gr Rem Core-Lokt Round nose. Developed a healthy respect for the rifle/action AND the cartridge.

Springfield: Had it's problems, too. "Hard" recievers was just one of them. Still, it was a prince. Originals are becoming harder to find, as many were sporterized.

Unsung hero, IMHO. The 1917 Enfield/Remington 30S. A bit heavy action for the rifle, but hell for stout and that silent rotating safety is a real peach. Have a Rem 30S Special "Express" in 7 X 57 that looks new except for some blue wear. All original, mint bore, and only made 2 years in that caliber and the "express" version.

Great threads, as of late. Let's keep it up.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:18:02 (ZULU)

This is the best place. I love a site where you can talk guns, chicks, and hot rods at the same time!

              LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:29:06 (ZULU)

Hello all.  I have been a long time lurker.  I've posted once or twice before and now have a question I just have to ask.  I am wanting to get a progressive reloader and think I have decided on either the Hornady lnl ap or the dillon 550b.  Can any one compare and contrast the two, mostly interested in quality of the machine and quality of the loads it can produce.  You can reply to e-mail if you like.  Sorry to post such a newbie qestion but I have not been able to find the answer and I figured you guys would know if any body would.



Andrew Stryker <>
Waco, TX, formerly known as the land of the free. - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:35:19 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

              I'm not a professional 'smith or rifle builder, but I spent some years working under a master tool maker to learn the machine trades, and some more years building professional racing engines, so I'd like to voice my opinion on your 'miracle' rifle.

              You said a lot when you mentioned the ability of the shooter, that's for sure. As far as the mechanicals go however, IMHO it could very well be a matter of tolerances, and how they stack up on your particular action. Anything built on an assembly line at high speed and low production costs will be built to certain "acceptable" tolerances, + or - whatever. Sometimes a guy lucks out and recieves a part that just falls into the X-Ring, other times (more often than not) all of the pluses and minuses are stacked the wrong way and the accurizing, truing, or (oh no!) blueprinting operations must be performed if you expect decent performance at all. Sounds like you're an excellent shot that also had the luck of the draw!


    Like you said about the Remington 30 series rifles. I'm lucky enough to have a 30S Express in .30-'06 and an absolutely NIB 30 Express in .25 Rem! Both rifles untouched by the bubba's hands. The reason that I'm posting this is to add a rare but important old Enfield/Remington to the list. IMHO the very best of the old pre-war Enfield actioned series - the Rem M720. Made only in 1941 because of the war, it's the one that Remington should have continued building when production started back up. Mine is the 1979 SEC DEF Trophy and I'm honored to own it. But my M1910 Mexican small-ring 98 is gonna stay a virgin, at least until I'm taking the long dirt nap;-). You know how us Mauser collectors get when we hear the word "sporterize". But I know that your examples will be put to a fine purpose between you and Steve.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 05:55:07 (ZULU)

Alan, i'd agree with that tollerance theory,

right i'm off for some days off, oh no... more DIY.

looking forward to next week, 2 days hunting, sons birthday (10th) 2 nights hunting, 2 day and 2 night shifts and i'm done for Christmas.

stay safe guys.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 06:10:31 (ZULU)

Joe M.

     You just keep on ranting. If you speak hard truth it dosn't really count as a rant.

on rem.

    I may have the last good out-of-box Rem. It's a "c"series 700 VS in .308. It loves Fed. match and shoots pretty, damn tight groups out to 800M (yes M). I'm comparing it to a Chandler. Of course the Chandler beats the Rem. but I only mentioned it so you know I've seen GOOD. I bought the VS a few years ago as an economical rifle. I got every cent out of it. Learned on it. I'm afraid to tell you what it wears for optics... I do hit at 800M with it. The new LR, rings and base just moved farther into the future; but thats another story.

Virus alert:

    I recieved a "worm" from some bastard. He used Brian K. Sain's Data mined E-mail adress off a rosterfarians drive as a return. I know   Brian didn't send it, because he knows that I've hated the Spice Girls since "old Spice" left. The subject was "Spice Girls volcal concert". My Mac's Counter Mesures mearly scoffed at the sniviling little pc worm...

-Lito, Did you get your drive sorted out?

Back from the woods, missed a good pie fight.

Jeager's right about sweet potato!!!


web crittenden <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 07:33:02 (ZULU)


I also receive about 3-4 virus infected messages a day now. I really value my Norton protection! Along with the infected messages I now get about 75 bull crap spam messages a day.

On another note, you have to check out the url below. With some browsers (Internet Explorer) you can just click on my name and check out this movie of an AC130 gunship engaging BGs in Afganistan. I pulled it from Snipershide, Very interesting! No where to hide!

It seems as if the site got overloaded so it is now not good, but I downloaded the movie. (about 5.5Meg file) If somebody really wants it let me know and I will either email it to you, or put it on a cd and mail it to you. Let me know.

Michael <>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 08:01:59 (ZULU)

Alan said, "...Anything built on an assembly line at high speed and low production costs will be built to certain "acceptable" tolerances, + or - whatever...(more often than not) all of the pluses and minuses are stacked the wrong way and the accurizing, truing, or (oh no!) blueprinting operations must be performed if you expect decent performance at all"

There is a lot of high-powered theory and a lot of high-powered consultants that support that theory.  W.Edwards Demming won fame, fortune and glory by saying pretty much the same thing.  He came up with a cure.  It's called "Statistical Process Control" or SPC.  The Japanese car manufacturers used it to stomp our big three until Detroit adopted it.

I'll bet Howa uses it.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 13:37:05 (ZULU)


Nope.  The drive is still locked.  I have a little external drive that has been my "tool box" with repair software.  I hooked that up, and it's now locked.  But at least I can now drag stuff out (so I can save my files :)

The 9600 is now all apart on the kitchen table... took TWO cans of compressed air to get the dust mice out.  You sure can collect a lot of dirt running 24/7/365 for 4 years. :((

I'm replacing the drives with one Quantum 10,000 rpm Atlas IV, and three new 10,000 rpm Cheetahs, upgrading to OS 9.2.2, and doing a fresh install of all the apps.  One of the drives will be a constant back-up.  Then I'll reformat the locked drives... if they won't take a reformat, I'll just chuck them, cuz their old and slow (like the owner ;(.

Also, the "Mac Users Group" meets next Wed night and they have some very smart puppies there.

Speaking of which (and Sinister too)... on Windows machines, you can just right click on an image to make it wallpaper, whether it's a .jpg, .gif, etc... do you know how to make Mac wallpaper out of a .jpg on a Mac???  I have a beautiful sniper photo that I want to put on the Mac Desktop.



I know about Demming's production flow approaches to manufacturing which is now showing some flaws in countrys with strong union control of parts of the system... but I never heard of the "SPC" thing.  The assumption that all the + and - will cancel is kinda iffy, but how does SPC workie and make it better?



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 13:59:16 (ZULU)

Pablo:  "...Demming' now showing some flaws in countrys with strong union control of parts of the system... but I never heard of the "SPC" thing..."

As far as production goes, SPC works fine.  Business is more than production.  If the other components of the business aren't there, the business has problems.  That's particularly true when the whole business culture has some imbedded irrationalities.  That's Japan.

"The assumption that all the + and - will cancel is kinda iffy, but how does SPC workie and make it better?"

That assumption is not "iffy."  It is wrong.  Error accumulates.  This isn't a grad course in stats, so I'll not elaborate.  SPC works to eliminate the variability in each of the components.  That reduces the variability of the entire system.  

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 14:29:49 (ZULU)

Need alittle advise. Just got a FN Special Police Rifle and a

Leupold 3.5 - 10 Tactical scope. Question is: what kind of rings

and scope base should I use? I was thinking of Badger Ordinance.

Any feedback would be appriciated.



Charlie Marshall <>
Tulsa, OK, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 14:37:01 (ZULU)


>"That assumption is not "iffy."  It is wrong.  Error accumulates."<

Well... by "iffy" I meant that some will be perfect, some will be poor, and some will be sloppy... the more pieces in the chain, the smaller the precentage of perfect, and the larger percentage of poor and sloppy... I understand that.  I went all the way to the 8th grade! ;))

>"SPC works to eliminate the variability in each of the components.  That reduces the variability of the entire system."<

Jeez... is that what I missed by not going to the 9th grade.  Dang Mang, anyone knows that the smaller the tolerances of the pieces, the better the the fit and quality in the chain.  Did we need Demming to teach us that?  I think not... the Japanese had been doing finer production work than us, well before Demming came along.

Course, now that we have AIT (arrive in time), and we are dumb enough to have our parts made somewhere else (even just a few of them) all it took was a longshoreman's strike to shut the whole country down and have us loose a billon dollars a day.  G-R-E-A-T  P-L-A-N-N-I-N-G... I'd love to have a pistol pointed at industry like that :((

AIT works in countries that don't have union problems, and where all (labor and manufacturing) are working towards one goal... something we could learn from the Japanese.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 14:42:16 (ZULU)


Go with the Badger bases and rings! They are the best. I presume that the scope you mentioned, 3.5X10 Tactical, is a one inch tube, if so, you will need to get the 20 MOA base, to get enough elevation to shoot to 1000, if you are planning on shooting that far.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 15:14:43 (ZULU)

>>That's particularly true when the whole business culture has some imbedded irrationalities.  That's Japan.<<

I agree with CDC... 4 years with Kyocera USA in a production support capacity.  The folks I worked with did not impress with their pro-active, statistic driven quality process <snicker>... I believe it was the 20 hour work days, 6 days a week and the unbelievably punitive management structure that led to delivery "just in time".  They take that "death before dishonor" thing into the workplace with a vengeance.

Medicjim <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 15:25:28 (ZULU)

A couple of weeks ago ALAN (and several others)responded to my question regarding refinishing a Walnut stock on an M1A.

I followed ALAN's advice and am very happy with the results so far.  I alternated the 50/50 Tung/Linseed oil mixture with applications of straight Tung / Linseed oil over several days.

The Tung oil left a somewhat tacky finish and the Linseed oil removed the "tackiness" and darkened the wood (as did the mixture).  I am very happy with the results / appearance so far.  I am now at the most difficult part of the refinishing process, the "wait a week or two" step.

I don't remember the rifle ever looking this good.  Makes me want to skip the final step (Major Culvers Magic finish), reassemble it and go shooting.

Thanks again for the advice.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 16:35:19 (ZULU)

Quality Control

My dad was a Quality Control Inspector for Bausch & Lomb here in Califonia before he retired.  He was responsible for inspecting precision parts that would be used to build the equipment used in eye surgeries.  He commented many times about inspecting parts all week and only being able to pass maybe 2 out of lot.  Because of demand for equipment he was over ruled and non-spec parts were then used to assemble the desired equipment to meet delivery dates.  Hope I never need eye surgery.  STATISTICS BE DAMNED!  That's what is wrong now-a-days.  Instead of taking the time to build things as they are designed and to the specifications that were called for in the original prints management has decided that if a certain percentage of the product functions and they meet their delivery dates then that is O.K..

Big business has taken the person that has a desire to build a quality product and time managed or kept the necessary equipment out of his hands and simply said work with what you got and build me X number of them in X amount of time or quit.

Thank god for the small businesses that these people have started so they can build the quality product they wanted to build in the first place.  Be it engines, guns or computers.

We buy the mass produced products because they fit our wallets better and when we decide that isn't good enough any longer we either take our product to one of these small businesses and have them fix it the way we want or trash it and buy one of their products.

Besides, who whats to buy something they don't have to throw away!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 16:47:41 (ZULU)


You was thinking right; Badger base and rings.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 17:07:05 (ZULU)

Holy smokes!!  From pistol-country to knife-country to post-war-industrial-manufacturing-process-control-country in about a week.  I think that's a new record.

If anyone is interested in pursuing the latter, I can recommend dozens of books and a few MBA programs.  Detroit is still shipping junk, and they know it.  That's why I left.

On another topic (pistols) I'm getting the bug to buy another 1911.  I'm looking at the Kimber Gold Combat-II.  Anyone out there with experience with this, or other, Kimber models?  Recommendations?


Duman <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 17:13:50 (ZULU)

Pablo:  "...anyone knows that the smaller the tolerances of the pieces, the better the the fit and quality in the chain.  Did we need Demming to teach us that?"

That wasn't Deming's contribution.  He developed efficient methods of reducing variability.  They really do work.

"Japanese had been doing finer production work than us, well before Demming came along."

MacArthur brought Deming to Japan after WWII to bring Japan out of the ashes.  It worked.

Byron:  "My dad...was responsible for inspecting precision parts... able to pass maybe 2 out of lot...he was over ruled and non-spec parts were then used to assemble... STATISTICS BE DAMNED!"

That's because the production process was screwy. That process needed to be brought under control then refined.  Statistics is the most misused word in the English language.  It isn't a bunch of hare-brained numbers some media goof plucks from the air.  That's numerology and is the realm of bullshit artists.  Production engineers use mathematical statistics to improve the manufacturing process.  

This really isn't the place to get into this.  

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 18:41:10 (ZULU)

QC and the consumer,

                   Since our wonderful automobile industry was brought up in this thread allow me to expand upon that subject. The top bean counters at company HQ know (to a large proportion) how much each cost cutting step is going to cost the company in warranty repairs on any given vehicle. This cost of warranty failure and repair is added into the price that we pay for their products. Studies have long confirmed that it costs the manufacturer far less money to repair a minor defect in the field rather than to reject it on the line, so that's one of the reasons the dealership service departments are always busy. I could literally go into hundreds of examples if you wish me to.

                   They gamble with peoples lives the same way! Any of you old farts (like me) remember the Ford Pinto exploding fuel tanks? An eighteen dollar (at retail) shield installed on the assembly line would have corrected the problem, but the execs figured out the percentages and found that it would cost the company less money to let them go without, and pay the unlucky consumer's lawsuit claims! The two Firestone tire debacles were more of the same.

                  All the while that this is going on the cost of labor is being cut to the bone. The US manufacturers and the Germans are building more factories in Mexico because of the cheap labor available. Vehicles built in European factories are being assembeled by "guest workers" from North Africa, the Balkans, southern Italy, Spain, and Portugal, among others. A good friend, an engineer who worked for VW/AUDI was sent to a new plant that was built in Mexico on a two year assignment to improve QC on the assembly line. As he related to me, the entire operation was SOTA, but the workers were out of the Stone Age! So how do you think the Asian manufacturers are faring with their plants in Korea, the Phillipenes, Indonesia and other sub-tropic hell holes? Remember Japanese TV's? Look at the sticker on the back of the Jap brands and you'll see China, Korea, and other Pacific Rim countries - but not Japan!

                   To sum it up, it's not just Stren bleeding Remington, destroying quality for the sake of profit, it's many of our largest manufacturers that are knowingly producing shoddy goods in exchange for their twelve pieces of silver!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 19:00:44 (ZULU)

George, Jerry, and other 'smiths,

What is the longest OAL that a cartridge can be loaded to and still feed thru the magazine of a short action Win. M70?


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 19:38:53 (ZULU)

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about mass production, but I do a lot of driving involved with work.  We use ford ambulances, and for the abuse they get their not too bad, some major problems with the new turbos on the power stroke engines though, and it has taken about 2 months for the ford dealers to get them fixed.    I have owned 5 toyota trucks, put a total of over 1 million miles on them and never had 1 problem, not even a knob falling off.  The last two trucks I had/have are chevy's, both 2000 year models, both big pieces of shit.  They have spent close to the same amount of time in the shop as on the road.  I am as patriotic as any american and more than most, but damnit I can't afford to have a truck down for that much time, I will be switching back to toyota trucks soon.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 20:13:42 (ZULU)

Here's production in a nutshell,

Workers make as many parts as they can to meet quota, sometimes they match or beat quota in effort to make bonus.  QC rejects everything...  Workers get no bonus.  So they try again.  QC rejects everything..  Management steps in, says, 'Hey, we need to get these products out the door!!', overrides QC, QC refuses to sign off for liability reasons, product goes out the door, workers go on strike for more pay and better hours, company gets sued for millions for faulty 'x', blah blah blah and there you go..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 20:27:15 (ZULU)

Many people here in the roster use Statistical Process Control without even realizing it.

All of you who reload your own rounds (Process), use a chrono to measure the Extreme Spread, and more importantly the Standard Deviation (Statistical), and then use that information to improve your reloading methods (Control) are using SPC.

You can dig deeper into the data you collect, and that's all that Demming does.

For instance, let's say you reload a box of 50, take them to the range, set up the chrono, and fire the first ten rounds in the order they were reloaded to check the quality of your work.  All ten shots are within the velocity (target) and extreme spread (tolerance) you consider acceptable for your purposes.  However, if you looked at the data, you might notice that each round is 2 feet per second faster than the last.  This variability would show up in the standard deviation, but would be very obvious in a trend graph, and it tells you that something is wrong with your process.  Maybe your powder measure has, literally, a loose screw, but unless you paid attention to the standard deviation, and a trend graph, you'd never know something was wrong, and you'd never know to fix it.

That's all this SPC stuff is.  No black magic, no dead chicken parts being waived, no pocket protector PhD stuff - it's stuff many on the roster do already without ever realizing it.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 21:22:56 (ZULU)

That's right.  Group size is even an idea from statistics.  The fancy stuff just builds on these basic ideas.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 21:52:30 (ZULU)

Charlie (the tuna?),

 I too have an SPR with a 3.5x10 LR, and I mated them with Marty's exceptional base (20 MOA taper) and MK4 rings:(( as demand was high on the badgers rings at the time.  It works very well indeed.  Sooner or later I'll slide the MK4s over to the M21 and put badgers on.  Interestingly, my scope bottomed out for the 100 yard zero with the current set up.  Everything is up from there.  Marty's base fits so damned perfectly on the reciever that I could swear he hand lapped it just for me.  

This set up is money wisely spent--you will be happy with the badger stuff.  You'd be the tuna with great taste goin' with this oft-repeated advice.  Premier is my vendor, and their service has been the best as are the prices.

Hey Marty--free commercials mang!

Dick, a plug for you too!

Both deserved as hell--great folks out there!

I'm glad the virus stuff gets zapped by my server.  Never got one!  But I do have an inside line on some serious african dough.  I'd let yuze guyz in on it, but I want it all fer myself! I'm gonna be rich...

Joe M. The Ga-zillionaire

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 22:53:08 (ZULU)

Brew-City Mike Said:

"his variability would show up in the standard deviation, but would be very obvious in a trend graph, and it tells you that something is wrong with your process.  Maybe your powder measure has, literally, a loose screw"

If not the powder measure, then I'd have to suspect the operator...

I crack me up too!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 23:04:00 (ZULU)

Don K...

Longest cart for a SA M70 bis about 3.15", but you have to remove the magazine filler.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 01:10:50 (ZULU)

More script errors with the emporium.....

Michael <>
CA, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 01:15:04 (ZULU)

Bandwidth Alert…….Lengthy Ramble Follows……

Remmy Rifles:

Have three. First was a PSS in .308, E68XXXXX. Spent a small fortune on it. Pillar bedded by a good smith into an LOD stock (they’re out of business now, mercifully), Rem. 40X trigger, etc.……no help. Then had a HEAVY 22” Krieger installed by the same smith, who talked me into truing the action. Thank God he did. Action was in dire need of help. Now a half-minute rifle. But I could have had a Chandler for what I spent on that stick. Original Rem. bbl. is now used to break ice on the stock tank.

Second was a .PSS in .223, D68XXXXX. Slapped a Loopy 4.5-14X Tactical on it and went woodchuck hunting. Spectacular. Half-minute rifle with no other work. This is with factory Win. 53 gr. ammo, too. Shooting dimes at 100 yds. is child’s play.

Third is a Chandler .308, 20” Hart bbl., E66XXXXX. This is the Gold Standard, guys. Quarter-minute with the right guy (or gal) on the trigger, sub half-minute with my old eyes behind the scope.

Draw your own conclusions. Sometimes you get a winner out of the box. But only with the ammo it likes. Example: got a bunch of Hornets, and my Ruger #3 will only shoot with Win. SP ammo. The Ruger #1 will only shoot with HP’s. Identical actions. Question of giving the right food to the rifle.

I am a believer in wringing a rifle out with different fodder, then, if it don’t shoot, turn it over to a good smith who can true everything up, re-barrel (probably as important, especially with the Remmy tubes!), and count the money as well-spent. Or just get a good one built from the ground up.

“Blueprinting” etc.

I worked for almost eight years in the Quality and Product Engineering Dept. for a German company that makes “luxury performance sedans.” Major thorn in my side was what is referred to as an “unfavorable stack of tolerances.” If you have an assembly of ten pieces each 10 cm.+/- 1 cm long, and they all have to be laid end-to-end to result in an assembly that is 100 cm +/- 5 cm, it is easy to see that having 10 pieces that are within tolerance (but at the high end) could result in an assembly that is out-of-tolerance.

Forget an easy formula for rifles. Take the stick out and shoot it. If it has a pattern instead of a group, sell it or fix it. If you opt to fix it, don’t do it piecemeal. Turn it over to an expert and do it all at once. All “unfavorable stacks of tolerance” will then be eradicated.

Best yet, get a from-the-ground-up rifle built by one of the aces, and don’t look back. You won’t ever regret it.


Thanks for the card! Best to you and yours!

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 02:42:27 (ZULU)

Guys, I haven't sent any infected stuff. But, I been getting from several of the guys here, 'lito, wes, joe. Just ignored 'em. Virus catcher is apparently on the job.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:05:03 (ZULU)

Demming......What a friggin joke. I had to take forty hours of that junk 5 years ago, "required" class. As soon as the doofus that was teaching it said that "money is not a motivator" I called bullshit and fell asleep.

Any dumbass could have gone into Japan after WWII and done good. When your production is zero, anything is an improvement.

Bolt <>
NC, - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:11:24 (ZULU)

Bolt:  Joke, huh?  Do you suppose the big three auto-makers are laughing at Toyota, Nissan and Honda?  

Give Remington's production to Mazda's production engineers and miracles would happen.

If money alone was an adequate incentive, our public schools would be turning out wave after wave of little Galileos.

SC isn't the forum for this discussion.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:14:09 (ZULU)

For those considering a 700pss

 Charleston this AM.. Six LE snipers with PSS package rifles with 3.5x10 tactical Leopolds; Fed M 168...

 Cold bores at 1" pasters.. Worst was 3/16" off the paster. most hit.

 Five shot group..Best was 5/16" worst was 15/16".

 Shooter experience ranged from "years" to a couple of months.

 Not bad for box guns.

 outa here

Markwell <>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:22:25 (ZULU)

Morning Fellas,

I have a friend talking about getting a new rifle built.  He is torn between chambering in 30-06AI or 300WM.  Being a WM man I have promoted the later, but he has some pretty good reasons (in his mind) for going the 30-06AI route.  Any of you guys have any experience or thoughts on the matter?

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 10:16:13 (ZULU)

CDC, if money isn't a motivator, then I assume you wouldn't mind working for say a buck an hour? You're right, discussion over.

Bolster out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 11:03:41 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito.  Talked to the tech boys at Sierra yesterday.  I got the OAL length and length of the boattail of their 6.5 142SMK from them.  Using this info and knowing how deep I want to seat this bullet, I come up with a cartridge OAL of 3.025.  I'm thinking I'm going to be better off using the long action, which will allow me to seat the bullet out further as the throat wears, without having to worry about mag length.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 12:34:11 (ZULU)

Jon, the 300 WM produces more energy at longer distances, compaired to the 30-06.

Tha's my own experience.


Val Sessink <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 13:00:55 (ZULU)

Bolt:  Dumping a bunch of money on a problem often makes the problem worse.  eg.  "War on poverty."  This isn't the place for this discussion.

A few of the gunsmiths, engineers, and mathematicians who visit this site could use SPC to fix Remington's quality problems while driving DOWN costs.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 13:33:02 (ZULU)

*********   School bans saying 'Christmas'    *********

Since the topics lately have been non-shooting related, I'd thought I'd throw this in:

>>>>>"At a time when Americans of many faiths; and even no faith; gear up to celebrate Christmas this year, a first-grade teacher in Sacramento Co., Calif., says she's been ordered by her principal not to utter the word "Christmas" at school."<<<<<<<

The Speech Police are at it again. This is ridiculous. Ignorance and stupidity gone to seed. Enough by God is ENOUGH!!!! Invade Iraq?! I think we need to re-take Kalifornia.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 14:38:17 (ZULU)

I have 2 Rem 700P's, A .223 B model and a .308 C model. Both shoot sub MOA out of the box. The only thing I did to them was adjust the triggers,torque the stock screws, and put on Leupolds with Badger bases and rings. As Bruce said, the .223 with 52-53gr SMKS shooting dimes is childs play. The .308 shoots 1/2 MOA out to 500yds with boring regularity if I do my part. I have one target from 800yds that two of the three holes are 2 inches apart. I bought them with the intention of sending them off to be worked on but, after seeing how well they shot I decided to wait until the barrels were shot out. Then sending them off for work.


tam308 <>
FL, US of A!!!!!! - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 14:44:21 (ZULU)

Bolt- You have mail, no attachment.

Seuss <>
Ho Ho Ho, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 14:56:27 (ZULU)


Got a small problem.  Something wiped out all my Netscape bookmarks this week and I can't find the URL for a device that fits on your scope like another ring and gives an up/down angle readout.  Seems Peter Lincoln mentioned it once.

Anyone have the URl or know the name of the company?  Would appreciate it.

Remember the TV ad from several years ago that showed a gorilla trying to destroy a Samonite suitcase?  My son & I just figured out why they used a gorilla.  They didn't dare use a UPS package handler.  Never would have believed anyone could destroy a set of Badger rings, but UPS succeded.  We ought to send those guys after bin laden.  Wouldn't even need any weapons, they could seriously ***k up an anvil barehanded.

My new (to me anyway) Rock 5R M24 barreled 700 action is due at the dealer today.  Anyone know where I can find pics and detailed inventory to include manufacturers of the complete system?  Guy on Gunbroker has M24 stocks and I plan on getting one of those next week.  Maybe Santa will get me some Badger bottom metal, base & rings (I've been fairly good this year).

Lastly, my Grandson is 4 now and I'm looking for a .22 to start him out on.  My son, his uncle, started with an excellent Anshutz (sp) kid's .22 which I can't find anymore of.  Saw an ad for a CZ kids .22, anyone have any experience with this one?  I know CZ good reputation for quality and accuracy but can't find anyone with any experience with this particular rifle.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 15:18:53 (ZULU)

Marty- Thank you ever so much for the opinions on the Remington actions.  First new rifle I ever bought for myself was last year-E66XXXX VLS that shoots into 1/2 MOA.

Serious question though, have been looking at the rivetless extractor face.  Seems to me that minor machining would allow use of the rivetless extractor in a modified bolt that once housed a riveted extractor.  Solve a whole lot of problems and might be a better mousetrap.

Anyone else see the front page pictures of the "Spanish sailors" pointing a Barrett and what looks like a AIW at the abandoned ship?

Kevin- as a toolroom machinist, once received a drawing with all the dimensions in screwy terms- 3 27/64 inches & stuff.  After careful study and verification that there was no reason for these wierd dimensions, I called the clod that did the drawing to ask WTFO?  Answer: "I though if I did it like that you guys would try harder to hit the dimensions."

WR Moore <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 15:25:10 (ZULU)


I can't get my URL's from here but the cosine angle indicator has a web page on Snipers Paradise's site.  They'll have contact info for sure.

Last AEDC 1K for the year is this Sunday guys.  We'll be shooting 20 shoots for record with unlimited sighters at 500, 600 and 1000 yards.  Shoot what ya like,, change rifle at different distances if it fancies ya....  If ya would like info and drive direction hit me at my email address.


Good to see you posting,,, we missed ya..  Did ya finally find the cryo'd barrel after that last spell of wind?


Chris <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 15:45:43 (ZULU)

Jon B.,

       .300WM vs. .30-'06AI? Here's my very biased viewpoint:

1) It is not possible to match or exceed .300WM performance with the .30-'06AI.

2) Resale value of a 'wildcat' chambered rifle is only as good as its momentary popularity, e.g. Did Tubb just win at Perry with it, or is it an obsolete old cartridge that was originally designed to remedy a problem that hasn't existed in decades?

3) Who in the hell wants to fireform brass if they don't have to? Remember that every one of those fireforming shots is another bullet and load of powder running through the bore!

4) Conventional wisdom has it that if the shooter is looking for efficiency in the thirty caliber tactical class rifle the .308Win. is the way to go. To increase range and energy the .300WM gets the nod. One caliber will rarely be all things to all shooters, if ever.

5) Arguments about loading for belted cases are pretty much bullshit.

If you're worried about headspacing on the belt, adjust your dies to headspace on the case shoulder!

6) The myth about the "short" neck on the .300WM is just more gunwriters bullshit. This cartridge hasn't been the top longrange target shooters choice for decades and holds the 1,000yd. worlds record today with all of these "shortcomings".

7) In order to surpass the .300WM in accuracy you'll probably have to go to the .308Win. To surpass it in range capabilities and energy delivered to the target you'll have to look toward the .338Lapua.

8) The .300WM has factory match ammo available over the counter most anywhere. Try that with a wildcat cartridge. There are already match winning generally accepted loads worked up for the WM, all the shooter needs to do is to fine tune them for his rifle. With the AI, he might use up half of his barrel life just finding something that shoots well at all times.

But don't let this tirade discourage anybody who enjoys tilting at windmills or pissing up a rope. After all, when I was all of 17yrs. old I stuffed a 283 Corvette 270hp engine in an MGA roadster! How did it turn out? Imagine ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack;-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 16:22:01 (ZULU)

Chris, try


Val Sessink <>
Netherlands - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 17:31:02 (ZULU)

Thanks Chris (& Val) for the info on the cosine angle indicator.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 17:46:05 (ZULU)


>>>>Imagine ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack;-)<<<

Betcha' that poop could fly :).


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:04:11 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info Alan. Knew I could count on a straight answer from one of you guys.  My mate is going to meet with the custom smith tomorrow to decide for sure.  He seems pretty set on the Ackley.  I thought that not having read any raves about it though, that it can't be all that wonderful.  Plenty sing the praises of 308s, 300s, 338s and the current starlet, the 6.5 x 264, but not a lot about the '06 Ackley.  I shall pass on the info.  He already shoots a 7mm Boo-Boo, so I think he gets a kick out of fire forming :-)

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:07:01 (ZULU)

"...when I was all of 17yrs. old I stuffed a 283 Corvette 270hp engine in an MGA roadster!"

Shame on you Alan, for placing that Detroit engine under the bonnet of that fine English roadster!


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:23:13 (ZULU)


Good take on out of the box Remingtons. I have an older PSS in .223 (fast twist barrel) that shoots my pet Nosler 55 BT/Varget load into sub 1/2" groups with boring regularity. Put a Luppie 3.5 X 10 LR Vari-x III Tactical with Badger mounts and rings. Trigger job and I have a excellent varmint rig...still don't really like the PSS stock, though.

Alan, 30/06 AI vs. .300 Win Mag. No comparison for the reasons you noted. Played with one of these a few years back. Could NEVER reach the ballistics touted for the cartridge. Now the .280 AI is another story! The only AI I have now is my .35 Whelan AI. Now there IS an Elk Cartridge!

Going to graveyard shift next week. Sometimes this law enforcement gig is not all it's cracked up to be...:-(

Still, gotta pay my dues as the "newbie"...

Looks like shooting this Sunday if the wind and rain die down...

All for now...duty calls.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:51:07 (ZULU)

MK4 said:  "Invade Iraq?! I think we need to re-take Kalifornia."

Do I hear an AMEN!  You already have some people on the inside just say the word!  Somebody famous once said: "A little reveloution every now and then is a good thing."

***Notice***  For those who can't find your ass with both hands, the preceding was a JOKE.  (maybe) ***Notice***


Robert H <>
Ne , Ca, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 19:09:01 (ZULU)


Looking for a good, compact tripod that is about 9" max.  Something that will take some knocking around.


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 19:17:49 (ZULU)


So what's this principal gonna do if the teacher says "Christmas"..?

I love CA, but I swear some of the dumbest, stupidest, sumbitches in the world live there. (The Principal)

I believe there are more "good" people in CA than "bad" people, but Politically Correctness is ruling to roost now as the good guys are afraid to stand up to the whackos. I hope that changes soon.

Rant off.



William Bledsoe <>
outback, ky, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 21:16:26 (ZULU)

I betcha that this first grade teacher was underestimated by the principal. He probably didn't anticipate this story getting outside the walls of the school (Duh). I hope this teacher has it written all over her black boards the next day and has each kid to recite or tell their favorite story about Christmas (yeah I know, they're first graders). Any retribution on his part would be good grounds for a lawsuit.

I hope that the school and principal is identified....and his office is flooded with anti-PC/pro-first amendment mail...and then he gets fired.

Wonder if they could speak the word "Halloween?"


This PC crap has gone to the outer limits. No longer can you say certain things w/o retribution...jus cuz somebody said so. So what happened to the first amendment?

Its time to take the fight to these jerks.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 21:29:28 (ZULU)

Allan,big motor,small car,10 pounds shit 5pound bag,thanks for the giggle man,I needed that.

Seems eveyone has been buyin the sierra seconds and cuttin into main line sales now the seconds are real hard to find down here,$30/100 the main line are to damn dear. :((

There was a USMC  blackhawk crash in south armerica somewhere,yesterday, some killed,prayers to the families.



Gavan Willis <>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 23:32:05 (ZULU)


  RFO (request for orders) got cut today at DA with my name on them.  I will report in Kuwait on 1 JUN 03.  Back that up 6 or 7 weeks for yada-yada classes and issue--and I'm outta here first or second week of April!!!  Can you believe that I actually have a job (current) that makes a hardship tour in the middle east sound great?  There's some other perks associated here too.  This is a REAL good deal for me and my family.  

Nicole was accepted and will soon take delivery of her "make a wish" horsey.  She called while I was on the road...her broken sentences of joy made this guys' day...

Bob--Ben Franklin said that if memory serves...  


You have champaign taste!  I started Blake on a Marlin 25--it got the job done.  I liked the sights for teaching...but then, I couldn't afford an Anscsutz back what would I know?

>>I stuffed a 283 Corvette 270hp engine in an MGA roadster! How did it turn out? Imagine ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack;-)<<


Did the shit ever hit the fan(belt)?

Now if it was a stick--wouldn't that be "stirring the shit?"

How long did it take to "git yer shit together?"


I guess I'll keep my day job.  Tough crowd...:)))

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 00:30:45 (ZULU)


Good to be back. Been busier than hell, merging bride's household with mine. Worth it in spades, though.

Found that Blackstarred and cryo'd barrel. Winds did indeed get moderate for NM and blew it about fifty feet.

Next to the stock tank (about 15 feet away) is a 20' wide by 10' high turn-out shed for the cow.

The Remmy barrel missed it, too.

Best to All,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 01:21:09 (ZULU)

Don't do business with Billy Powell of Petal MS

See my post on the Emporium.

Dennis Muldrew <>
OP, KS, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 02:51:43 (ZULU)

On retaking California, We could all meet in Las Vegas, drive over. Souldn't take more than a day or two, they don't have many guns ya know. Then I'll spring for the first round back in Vegas.

Dennis Muldrew <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 04:30:59 (ZULU)

I owned an MGB once.  Bought it and picked it up right off'n the factory floor.  I was prouder'n a puppy with two peckers.  After two years, I was convinced that they are Great (snicker)Britain's finest lawnmowers. Every part that broke or fell off was of the finest English workmanship, and the electrical system (another snicker) was designed and installed by howler monkeys on crack.....

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 04:48:08 (ZULU)

I had always heard that one of the great deterrents of Japan attempting any kind of invasion of the U.S.of A. after Pearl Harbor was the fact that the average person in this country was very well armed. Since the 'leftist' coast has bragged to no end about their gun laws makes this state look very vulnerable as far as the average armed citizen goes.

I betcha that if a convoy of war ships with gound troops appeared on their shores one day, they'd surrender so fast, it would make the French look good...except for the Californians on this Roster holding the line. (Hold on til us Texans show up ;)))))



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 05:01:46 (ZULU)


 I had a '79 MGB in Hawaii (Oahu if your anal).  Preface with "this is no shit..." There I was, all dressed up in my buck sergeant dress-blue uniform (free from a soldiers' board I won)...headin' to the regimental Ball..smoking a cigar cuz I'm the greatest...when I smelled gas.  Lotsa gas...Hey!-- my socks were wet...oh-shiiiiiiiiiiit!  I'm covered in gas!  Leave it to the Brits to put the fuel pump on the steering column, and as a bonus, the damn thing was junk.  Needless to say, the cigar went over the side on H2.  But at least I didn't spill my beer.  I'd work on it all day saturday,  Drive it til it broke on sunday, then wait til the next saturday to repeat the cycle.  I traded it for a HD sportster once I realized MGs were meant to perform that way...LOL


Believe it or not--COL Aaron Banks is still with us.  He celebrated his 100th birthday on NOV 24 out in Kalifornistan.  First the jedbergs with the OSS, then the Daddy of modern special forces---this guy's been there, done that...hell, before any of us were even thought of!  Happy belated Birthday, sir!  Since September 11th, a nation is truly gratefull for your foresight...and the most effective tool we have in our war on terror!  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 05:15:19 (ZULU)

MK4,   You got it, I think those of us out here on the left coast could hold our own once the liberal pukes ran past us and out of the way, but we would welcome the help.  We could do even better if Jerry Rice would equip us with some of his rifles ;).  

Serious news:  Two pilots killed in army helicopter crash near Ft Rucker, Al.  Assuming it was an AH-64, since the news said only 2 people on board.  My boss (Ret. Lt Col  Dave Reger) flew ah-64's out of rucker for a while.

Been almost 1 year since our helicopter crashed (killed the pilot and a good friend, Ray Watson, Ret W-4)  

Just puting these names out there, since it is such a small world and there are a lot of military, ex-military guys in here.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 06:14:05 (ZULU)

Links to Stories about both recent Helo crashes.

-Click my name below.

Dakota Aviator <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 06:27:53 (ZULU)

Anyone ever heard of the CIA Middle East Atlas (1993)?

I needed some maps of the Middle East for a briefing and I couldn't find *exactly* what I wanted on the internet so I scanned in some maps from that atlas.  

I have found a few of them on the internet but none that are near the size or resolution that I've put online.

Although its nearly 10 years outdate it will still give you a good idea of whats-what in that region.   (Anyone got a newer source?)

Most larger college libraries will have it on hand.

Whos going to Qatar?   Joe?  I've got a good one of that if you like.

Click my name or cut and paste below:

If anyone gets any use out of that, drop me an email and let me know if it was worth my time to put that up to share it.



Two other points:

IrfanView 3.75 is a pretty good fast, simple image viewer that is best of all - FREE.

BE ADVISED:  Some of the files are really large!  If you don't have a high-speed connection some files may load slow.

Larger numbers (3000x) are larger files but also have waaaaaay more detail and can be enlarged - unlike most other similar maps on the internet.


Dakota Aviator <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 06:37:19 (ZULU)

Ref: "howler monkeys on crack....."

Oh my God!!  What a visual!!  I love it and will use it like it was my own.  Thanks, that's great.

Ref: 6.5x.284 Project

Year-end bonus will be paid next week and then I'll cut a check to George.  I can't wait to see that cannon.  Some have complained already that it just ain't fair to have such a long barrel because I won't really be shooting 1,000 yards but only 999.  But, like my grand-dad used to say, "Fair is what they hold once a year in Syracuse.  If you expect more than that in life you'll be disappointed."

Ref: Next Trip

Right after the SHOT show I'm off again.  This time I'm not doubling back.  I'm going to keep going West until I end up where I started.  It should be a hoot.  I've got to visit some folks.  I'm under strict orders to, "Stay the hell out of Bangkok."  Looks like a thimble collecting trip to me Brian.  Thanks for the card.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 09:37:29 (ZULU)

Yo men!!!

Were in Tokyo headed for Hawaii.  Hope ya'll are doing well and I'll make sure I soak up some rays for you Yankees up North.

Check back in a few!

Out here

Gooch <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 10:44:40 (ZULU)

"Leave it to the Brits to put the fuel pump on the steering column...".   Don't know about the "B", but on the MGA, the fuel pump was located near the rear axle.  You could hear it "clicking" when you turned the ignition on and pulled the starter knob.  With wood floorboards and removable plexiglass windows, it was a real classic.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 14:15:27 (ZULU)

 Perfect day to clean up the deer rifles for storage 'til next year; it's pouring the snow here in the mountains.

 Ever have one of those little insignificant projects that upon completion gives great satisfaction?  Set out a number of years ago to find good used leather slings/carrying straps for all my wood stocked rifles.  Hate paying the price for new ones and, even worse, hate getting them broken in.  Prowled the pawn and gun shops, as well as gun shows, looking in all those junk boxes for good used slings and finally came up with enough nice leather slings to meet the goal.  Some are military style, some just plain leather carrying straps..Even found a few Brownels' Latigos..Didn't pay more that about $10 for any of them, and, many came with swivels.  

 A note for those who heat with wood..DON"T move your mother into a house near by with a fireplace..She'll keep you hopping, as recreational wood burning in a fireplace seems to consume more wood than you ever thought possible and, your wood pile will go down like the beavers have been at it..

  Not to start handgun country again, but has anyone used/got an ElPaso 1942 Tanker pattern holster?? Thinking about one for my 5" Model 29........

 outa here to haul wood.

Markwell <>
Back in the snow zone in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 14:56:21 (ZULU)


RE:  30-06AI vs 300WM, I agree with Alan. His response reflects my experience 110%.  

For the most part any cartridge that doesn't have a lot of body taper in it's original form will NOT see large gains by going to the AI version.  The 06' and 308 family of cartridges are in this group in that their orginal versions already have fairly minimum body tapers.  Cartridges such as the 250 Savage and 300 H&H can reap large gains in case capacity by blowing out to AI specs.  Many of the gains reported by 06' and 08 family AI users are actually coming at the cost of higher pressures.

We have many .300WM customers that are having extremely happy relationships with this caliber.  Superb accuracy and long case life when their dies are set up for that chamber properly.

Also note that the Winchester 180gr Ballistic Silvertip factory load shoots extremely well in many rifles.  We have several large agencies that have had their rifles shoot this load better than the Fed GM load with the 190MK.  So even though it is not classed as a "match" round, the bullet has a very high BC and the loaded ammo is quite good.  This ammo is also widely available in many places.  Maybe this would strengthen your arguement toward the original .300WinMag.

Best wishes to you and yours this holiday season.

No wind,


Terry Cross <>
Forest Hill, LA, US - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 15:32:05 (ZULU)

Kevin:  Ditto on the howler monkeys. Laughed my ass off when I heard that. Sounds like some of my craziness and I wish I would have thought of it.

You can bet I will unashamedly plagerize the hell out of it though.

Oh, and for goodness sake, don't have another damn heart attack. These queers around here used up three days worth of bandwith worrying about your ass on your last trip.

For weeks it was How's Kevin ?, Where's Kevin ?, Anybody heard from Kevin ? Poor Kevin ? ...

Poor Kevin my ass. World traveler with more sniper schools under his belt than most snipers. What price is one small heart attack. Sheesh.


Just kidding bro. Be safe and have a good trip.

Thanks for thinking of my granny. She's cute as hell at 84 and when she gets a new thimble for her collection, she gets all excited and starts speaking French and shit. he he

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 17:30:28 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on the '06 AI fellas.  Spoke to mate last night before he set off on the long haul to Scotland to visit the smith.  I passed on the views of those who answered and he says he will go with the 300WM.  I haven't heard back from him yet, but fingers crossed.  I was looking forward to a trip up with him, but have been pretty much house bound since monday with a bug that has given me the squits.  Didn't fancy 18 hours in a car with an arse set on hair trigger ;-)

Thanks again fellas.


Jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 21:17:54 (ZULU)

Joe M:

Yeah, I got champagne tastes alright.  Problem is it usually winds up being apple cider. <G>

The Anshutz I got my son over 20 years ago was  a "Woodchucker".  Plain wood no butt plate short heavy barrel.  Only cost around $100 then.  Shoots like a house afire.  Accounted for more squirrel stew than it cost in $.

Looks like I'll go for the kids model "Scout" CZ for the 4 yr. old grandson if I can sneek it past his momma.

The Rock 5R barreled receiver I got off the Emporium.  Not new, has 2K rounds through it.


Don Smith <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 22:22:13 (ZULU)

Anyone have any comments on RoadRunner versus Bellsouth DSL. I have got to get rid of Mindspring dialup, can't stand it no mo.

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 23:29:55 (ZULU)

Get BellSouth...   I have had it for 2 years and its performed quite well...

Dean Miller <>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 23:36:02 (ZULU)

I had a '72 MG Midget.  The souls of my Jump boots were taller than the door minus the window. The wipoers stilled worked but I had to start it with a toggle and a push button I rigged up ;)) It was amazing watching me squeeze my 6'2" self into that little car.  The last time I drove it the brakes gave out completely and as I was pulling into a parking spot across from the HQ bldg and stopping with the handbrake, the steering columb broke.  That's the last POS british car I'll own that doesn't say Cooper on it somewhere...


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 23:41:17 (ZULU)

Hey, you guys (probably Mike Miller) know this, it's something you would know. Snippers, snippers, all of ya, like scissors!

Where can a guy get some heavy (like ALICE pack heavy) nylon in camo pattern? I figure as much of it as there is out there, there HAS to be a source. Sure would like it for a project I've got going.

Jaeger <>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 23:57:45 (ZULU)


     On burning wood....what kind do you use in your part of the country?  Up here in the Cold North Country, right alongside the border to N.D. I usually get ash and elm to burn and some oak.  I mix junk wood like box elder with it, but we ain't got no winter this year!  No snow, brown grass, 40 degree temps, no fireplace owning inlaws, and giant intact woodpile.

    Tried to get 'Lito to send his sister with the green Pinto up here to cut 'n haul wood, but she don't do that!  I built a hydraulic log splitter a few years ago using a 5x24 cylinder and 10 horse engine.  Will destroy anything made of wood.

    On shooting:  Anybody ever paid the extra cash for Lapua brass in .223?  Quality matters, and I'm just asking because the last batch of Winchester brass seemed awful loose in the primer pockets while seating CCIs.  Have a special, joyous Christmas season everyone.

Jerry S. <>
Red River Valley, MN, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 00:43:53 (ZULU)

Go Figure!

A while back I picked up a Mark 4 M3 (duplex - price was right of course) to sit on my .300 WM.  I mounted it on a Badger LA tapered base and Badger rings.  Took it to the range sighted it in and found that I couldn't get it adjusted down for a 100 yd zero (shot a few inches high but don't remember exactly how much).  Didn't really bother me though because I was actually going to play with it at 1000 yd so no biggie it zeroed there with plenty of elevation to spare.  Then Premier Reticles comes out with their Gen 2 Mil-dot so off it went for the upgrade.  I get it back and put it back where it belongs and again re-zero at 100 yd.  Now I know, it is maxed out of adjustment and shoots 3 " high.  Again no biggie because I know I can hold the first mil-dot above the cross-hairs and be right on, besides I'm going back to 1000 yd with it again.

Now we come up with the SC rifle, that I got to have as it will be my first custom rifle (not counting a 40X I have).  Anyway now it's time to figure out what scope to put on it.  At first I was going to buy one of the Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR in either M1 or M3 that George was going to order.  Then I found another Mark 4 M3 this time with factory mil-dot and again for the right price so I bought it.  Now I like the Gen 2 Mil-dot better then the standard oval dots so I decide to remove the Gen 2, which I will mount on the SC rifle, and replace it with the Mark 4 with oval dots.  I set everything up for the switch, get the zero setting on my Bushnell bore sighter and make the switch.  When it comes time to set the new scope to the old zero much to my surprise I find that there is enough adjustment to actually get the cross-hairs to the actual 100 yd zero (same spot the first mil-dot was with the other scope mounted).

I guess this just goes to show that like no two guns are the same, no two scopes are the same either.

Go Figure!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 00:50:02 (ZULU)

Guess you Texans are OK after all!  (A joke, son.)

We'll take all the help we can get.  And some of us already have "Rice-Rifles".  (1/2 moa to and including 1000 yds.  hee hee)



Dennis <>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 01:53:10 (ZULU)

Bolt,  If it's available get cable internet.  I have dsl at work and cable at home, cable is much better with a lot less down time, and cheaper (at least here).

Heads up to all in the path of this storm that is over N california right now, it's NASTY!  60+mph winds, heavy rain and snow, and supposed to get worse tonight.  It's begining to look a lot like Christmas!


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 02:37:06 (ZULU)

Jerry S.  Here in the Alleghenies we burn mostly oak and some locust.   Once in a while I'll also get in a batch of Sycamore [sp?] but it can be a b#^*h to split.  What's the PD situation up your way??  Shot some around Medora a few years ago but never really had a lot of time to check out ND thoroughly for dogs.

 Jaeger...Call John Carver at Eagle Industries about material..I bought some netting for a ghilli from him quite a while ago.  He's a great guy and will probably help you out.

 Completed final deer processing this PM.. Have had enough of that for another year..Brock, my son, informed me he can still kill 4 more and usually I wish him well, but we've got enough meat!

 No input on the ElPaso 1942 Tanker holster???????

outa here again

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 02:57:31 (ZULU)


    The oak is about the best fuel I could ever expect to find here.  We don't have any Pdogs locally.  The Red River Valley is agriculture black dirt land, read whitetail country.  Medora is the western part of ND, and I'm near the eastern border of ND.  This is sugarbeet and soybean and wheat country.....some it grows big'uns.

    Ya have to stick with western ND or go to SoDak....JR country for Pdogs.  We used to pot jackrabbits with varmint rifles, but they're cycled down and out now.  Fox too.  I raised some butcher chickens a few years back and you could set your clock by the expected time for the fox to make their daily appearance for a chicken sandwich.  We had an 11 o'clock fox and a 2 o'clock one, and there was another that came at about 4......but not for long.  I always kept a 12 gauge loaded with Winchester Double XX and #4s.  Did that load ever reach out and nail them.  I shot another with a .22 at 60 yards and he dropped the chicken in his mouth just looking at it like it might have nipped him.  Picked it up and I shot him again through the lungs.  After going through that about five times, he trotted off, and I found him dead in the grass.  Gave up on the .22 after that one.  

Jerry S. <>
Red River Valley, MN, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 04:30:30 (ZULU)

Dave Barry's theory of airport security, or, Don't you feel safer with government union workers in charge?

One of my brothers did a bunch of years in a highly technical job in the Navy.  That experience led him to believe that the only reason we survive is that our enemies are even more f****d up than we are.

Markwell:  Women and firewood.  I worked for an outfitter and I was one of the guys who stocked the wood-pile.  When the wives came into camp they would keep EVERY TENT IN CAMP 95 degrees 24 hours a day!!

We'd come back into camp, take a look at our precious wood-pile and groan.

They'd look real proud of themselves for making the place cozy for the men-folk.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 05:17:23 (ZULU)


Go with RoadRunner.


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 06:30:13 (ZULU)


      MK4's and tapered bases - sometimes they'll zero at 100yds., sometimes they won't. You pays yo' moneys an' ya takes yo' chances!

So far I've been lucky, but I know it won't last. I'm bound to get bit on the butt sooner or later by this combination. Just another case of those tolerances stacking one way or the other, I guess.

Terry Cross,

            Sometimes I feel like I'm preaching to the choir about these .300WM's, but they're worth it. Back in the mid 1970's I lost a contest and got to go stay in Salt Lake City for two years;-) one of the few good things that happened to me during my stay was that I got to meet Parker Ackley and had several long conversations with him over a time period of several months. When I questioned him about his .30-'06 AI cartridge he explained that he designed before WWII, when there were damn few affordable rifles available for the .300 H&H, and he was trying to approach magnum performance with a cartridge that would feed through a standard Mauser or 1903 action. He said that he really couldn't see much use for it any more, and that his favorite cartridges out of his Improved series were the 40 degree versions of the .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, and 7x57. He also related that in his opinion improving the .220 Swift or the .22-250 with a 40 degree shoulder was good as a mechanical improvement (for case life, etc.) but the improvements to the cases were negated by the shortened barrel life of these already overbore cartridges, since when you increase case capacity you must increase the powder charge over that of the original cartridge to equal the MV of the original case. Very interesting man, I was honored to meet and talk with him. BTW, that M40A1 that you built for me keeps getting better every time I shoot it.



Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 06:40:22 (ZULU)

Hello !  I was looking at Snipersparadise web page, the topic was pushfeed versus controlled feed.  I would like to know what you guys think about the difference between the two different methods?  I have a Winchester with a "CLAW":):( feed action.  I would like to know the -(pros and cons) between the two and the advantages?

Thanks for your time,


BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 07:38:58 (ZULU)

Jerry S...Have shot a bunch in SD over the years as well as Wy.{Thunder Basin} before the plague hit there a couple of years back.  Recently have been going to Mt. and have found some excellent shooting.  Never hurts to ask about potential new areas.

 We also had a chicken problem a couple of years ago..Couldn't figure out for the life of me what was devestating my wifes' flock 'til one day my sons Australian Shephard pup came down off the hill from the chicken house with one in his mouth!  Shortly there after Old Lucky got hit by a car  and that was the end of that!

CDC..When the Queen and I were working in WY. in Oct. for an outfitter in the Hoback country I loved to see the guides take the hunters out for the entire day.  No mid day naps that way and those little sheep herder stoves were cold all day.. I was lucky, my wife was the only woman in camp for the whole month and she spent most of the day in the cook tent or out riding, hiking etc.. Only had one client who really hammered the wood pile; burned the stove all night..Don't know when he got any sleep as he obviously spent the whole night stuffing wood in the stove.

Looks like it will be sunny and warm today..Guess I'll go cut the two pines that came down across the upper road during the big ice storm Wed. so I can get up to the bench.

outa here

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 13:47:47 (ZULU)

Markwell, if you're refering to the 1942 Tanker Holster made by     El Paso Saddelry in El Paso,Texas I have this to say. I've never had one of the Tanker Holsters BUT over the years having lived in and around El Paso I've had a number of their holsters. All top quality, well made and plain old good working/looking leather!! Some of the best holsters made! Still HAND-CRAFTED by REAL PEOPLE in "wonderful" downtown El Paso!

Hope this helped!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 13:55:16 (ZULU)

Alternative Savage Stock:

While doing some net surfing I ran across a page that might interest those with Savage rifles looking for a better stock.  They have a couple of different options but there tactical model has a verticle grip, dual from studs, and options for adjustible check piece and LOP.  You might want to visit, "".

Back to surfing!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 14:01:59 (ZULU)

Sarge...Have several ElPaso Tom Threepersons rigs for asstd. handguns..Elpasos' quality IS top notch, as you say..Thinking of the Tanker for use while hunting as a regular shoulder rig gets in the way , for me, when carrying a pack..  Might be one in my stocking for Christmas it seems..

Outa here again; gotta go cut those trees.

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 14:35:11 (ZULU)

YO, WEBMASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was trying to scroll down on the roster to find my last posting when the screen showed a error message that the server had timed me out.  "Action server pages error-ASP 0113".  'Twas the site server not mine.  Would you please create a longer time window ??????????????????    Not everyone here is on ethernet.

Thank you, we now return you to your regularly scheduled B&G.

WR Moore <>
- Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 14:45:08 (ZULU)

Long Range Shooting Simulation Version 2:

For those that are aware, I wasn't, there is a new version out.  It now has 3 calibers, .308 - 175 gr., .338 - 250 gr. (based on Black Hills load, and .50 cal. - unknown didn't see listed.  There are 3 different target sizes and ranges out to 2000 yd.  10x and 20x scope set up with M1 dials.  300 different ranging senarios.  The site didn't indicate but I am assuming that movers are there as well since it was included in version 1.

Looks like it is time to upgrade!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 15:18:04 (ZULU)

>>>>>>> Guess you Texans are OK after all! <<<<<<

My great uncle was a fella by the name of Ben Milam. He led a force of Texicans on a Mexican held town by the name of San Antonio de la Bexar in 1836 (or somewhere about then). He took the town but was killed at the last of the battle supposedly by the last shot fired. It was right after that the Texicans occupied a place called....the Alamo.

I guess that's why I have this tendency to go looking for a fight when it comes to  truth, justice and the American way sort of thing.

BKS knows what I'm talking about ;))  



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 18:24:44 (ZULU)

 Well folks the Missouri Land is a done deal......Look out Spring Gobblers......Beautiful place with a year round spring and creek right through the middle of it......Since when is a holstered pistol unacceptable range manners? Visited the range up by the new place, and the guy said "You can't use a holster here, use the table only.".......Hmmmmm guess I'm spoiled by having shot around here for so long.....the freedom of solitary practice.......Women and wood....there's better ways for a woman to keep a man warm in his tent than with wood,FIREwood that is....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 19:32:36 (ZULU)


It must have been me then because I thought the general consensus was that a Mark 4 M3 would not zero at 100 yd when on a tapered base.  I was really surprised when this one did.


Hope your computer repairs are progressing O.K.

Damn weather man said it was going to be weather only fit for ducks and instead it's only overcast and 70 degrees.  I knew I shouldn't have made plans that fit a wet weekend.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 20:00:52 (ZULU)


Welcome to the state of Misery--oops!  Missouri.  Sounds as if your range guys are rather touchy.  It really isn't a bad place to live.  We get at least two nice days a year whether we need them or not.  If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes and it will get worse. ;o)  



Doc Holloway <>
The almost balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 21:12:03 (ZULU)

Mark Smith wrote:

Since when is a holstered pistol unacceptable range manners? Visited the range up by the new place, and the guy said "You can't use a holster here, use the table only.".......

That reminds me of the time I went to shoot a Service Rifle Match.  I had my P-35 in condition one where it belongs in a Milt Sparks Roadrunner holster riding over my right kidney.  We had just finished the rapid fire standing to sitting when a guy at the next firing point looks at me like he just saw a snake.

He gasps, "Jesus, is that thing loaded!"

I couldn't help myself I laughed at his expression and said, "Hell yes, it ain't no good to me unloaded."

That's when all hell broke loose.  The guy flagged down a range safety guy and started to rant about how he wasn't going to shoot next to someone that had a loaded pistol, while there we both were with M1 rifles going off all around us. The profound sillyness of the situation had me laughing. The safety guy comes to me shaking his head and asked if I'd mind awfully putting "that thing" away somewhere until the match was over.

My bet is that guy that complained went home and told his mom all about that bad man with a pistol.

FWIW, I now wear something to conceal my handgun even at the range.  I don't want to offend anyone.......geeesh.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 21:16:30 (ZULU)

 Kevin, "geeesh"......I know what you mean. Now I remember why I quit going to the range as often........ Always stuck between a pussy and a nut ;).....The range was fully baffled, and at the 15 yd. line was shot to hell, though not by holstered pistols I'd bet.......Guess I'll be taking my rack of plates and the backstop with me when I move....Spoiled on Freedom.....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 21:40:08 (ZULU)


 Don't know the origins of the story but always liked it.

 Guy is carrying a 1911 in condition 1.

 Another guy asks " do you know your pistol's cocked?"

 Response;  "yep."

 "Aint that dangerous?"

  Response; "You damn betcha!"

Holster tale:  

  Hadn't shot an IPSC match for quite some time and went to one in Va. a few years back..Wore my old Thad Rybka Rhodesian holster.  Between strings on one stage I did a mag change in the holster and a hand descended on my shoulder.  Turned my head toward the RO who is informing me that I can't put a mag in my gun while it's in the holster because when I seat the mag the gun might fall out! The Rhodesian is about as secure a holster as you'll find. I Look at this guys dipstick,cutaway, erector set, rig and wonder how the f#*+^#g pistol stays in place.

Told him that My gun would stay put no matter what I did, unlike his, in that POS excuse for a  holster that looked like some kids transformer toy wrapped around a pretty poor excuse for a practical pistol!!  It was downhill from there!

  Indoor range in Harrisonburg, Va.  advertised a combat pistol match several years ago..One of the rules was "no holsters allowed". Go Figure!

  outa here

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 22:10:36 (ZULU)


    A VICTORY!!! It is so rare that the 5-sided printer spits out good paper. Congratulations all around!


    Try "" for nylon. Unless you need the slickness of 12oz. packcloth(ie ALICE body) consider 8oz cordura. just as tough. If you need a small qty . of either, hit me off line and I'll see if I've got enough to share.

   Oh Yeah BEWARE: there are at least 2 "woodland" prints around.  one is 1984 pattern (large blotch) which is current. The other is actually 1960's vintage ERDL printed in current color scheme. Rainshed only carries the '84 which is best IMHO. There are also about 70 thirdworld knockoffs that don't even index. Designed for Chairborne sales. Cheap=Cheap.

If any one sees a couple of yards of the new MARPAT printed on about anything other than paper, let me know. I'm a sceptic at the moment but I want to test it.



web crittenden <>
- Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 22:51:09 (ZULU)

Rummy is running his own "Phoenix Program."  At first blush is sounds like a good idea, but not everyone is happy.

Wrap up on the DC murders:

Back to work.

CDC' <>
- Monday, December 16, 2002, at 00:03:14 (ZULU)


I have been looking for a new muzzleloader and have decided on a T/C Encore .50 Mag., I realy like the design and feel.

Now for my real question: If I decided to get a rifle barrel for it will this thing shoot with any accuracy or is this a 1.5 to 2 moa rifle?


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 01:07:53 (ZULU)

******** Gore Won't Run in 2004 ***********

"I've decided that I will not be a candidate for president in 2004," Gore told Lesley Stahl. "I personally have the energy and drive and ambition to make another campaign, but I don't think that it's the right thing for me to do."

"I want to contribute to ending the current administration."


Yep, that says it all. He never said he wanted to help our country...just help end the current administration. A real patriot to the DNC. The country BE DAMNED! Don't you love a sore Democrapic LOSER.


Anybody that missed 'Saturday Night Live' missed some real good puke material. Sheesh.


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 03:04:02 (ZULU)


Tried to hit you off line   My computer won't recogized your email address.


GI Joe Surplus in San Diego has Marpat laundry bags 36" X 36" for sale $4.95 each this real Marpat issue including the USMC Emblem in the pattern. Same thought about trying the new pattern out.  I purchased two in desert pattern to try.  they have both patterns.

USMC Air Station  Mirmar San Diego  will have the desert Issue aviable in late Jan 03  they have the woodland Marpat now  $30 each for BDU trousers and jackets USMCRD won't sell to anyone except pers stationed at USMCRD

The desert  marpat appears to be working in the mojave desert  I. E.  the Las Vegas Area,  but I will wait until summer to make a finial decision.

I'm looking for a  Mil Spec tan med alice pack  I had one several years ago Loaned it to somneone  it never came back

Semper FI

bomac <>
- Monday, December 16, 2002, at 03:56:16 (ZULU)

Howa fans,

          This is probably old news, but I'll post it anyway 'cause I can't remember seeing it here before! Remember the old Weatherby Vanguard, which was a Howa rifle with Weatherbys' name stamped on it?

It is available at WallyWorld sporting goods departments in an exclusive run for Wal Mart by Howa through license from Weatherby. The guy at the counter told me that they come in sporter or varmint barrels, and synthetic or wood stocks. If the store doesn't stock the one you want they can order it from their warehouse.


      Some of us found that the MK4 scopes will zero at 100yds. when using a 20MOA tapered base on some combination of rifle, scope, and base but I don't think that anyone can predict it for certain.

      For example, when I ordered my M40A1 clone from Terry Cross I specified an IBA (Chandler) mount which is only available in a 20MOA taper, and a MK4 M3 MilDot scope. I had a couple of conversations with 'lito off site, then spoke to Garth Kendig at Leupold, and found that Terry had also been speaking with Garth about the feasibility of this combination. The consensus was to try it, because nobody knew for sure if it would zero at 100 or not. It would all depend on the precise dimensions of the scope base, the reciever, and the +/- tolerances allowed in the production of the individual scope used. I gave instructions to go ahead and try it because I already had a 'Plan B' worked out, and to make a long story short it worked just fine, leaving me 6MOA remaining on the elevation adjustment to go down from a 100yd zero! If you'll search the archives I printed a rundown of clicks needed from bottom stop through 100yd. zero and up to the upper stop (past the 1000yd. mark) for Chris (Fatboy). I'm using the .30-'06 dial for my .308 175SMK load.

       I'm not 100% positive, but I don't think that anyone can predict for certain if this combination (MK4 and 20MOA base) will zero at 100yds. until they try it. That's what I mean about the tolerances stacking up! So don't feel like the Lone Ranger on this one;-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 05:28:57 (ZULU)


Critter asked about the Rainshed having MARPAT camo pattern material.

Will check. It's in Corvallis, Oregon and I go through there every day on my way to work. Will report back in, later.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 07:17:43 (ZULU)

Guys i whitnessed a negligent discharge yesterday (and my friggin ears are still ringing) it was caused by absolute stupidity on the part of the owner( who shall remain nameless, but i am ashamed to say he is a friend of mine) of the rifle and that was on 2 counts. Firstly the dumb shit went hunting yesterday morning, came back from the woods and didn't bother his lazy arse to unload the damn rifle, left it stood muzzle up in the workshop gun rack, I am busy fitting a recoil pad to a Blaser double rifle and threading a barrel in the same work shop. The son of the owner of the rifle comes in and says hi. I'm working away at the lathe , paying particular attention to the job, this damn teenager is in the workshop and wanders around the other side deciding to show his 2 mates his dads rifle, he opens the bolt and removes the round, but forgot about emptying the damn magazine, closes the bolt and pulls the friggin trigger. "BOOM" great a 308 failsafe burries itself in the damn workshop wall. As soon as i had worked out if there where any wounded,( thank god there weren't) I hit the friggin'roof, tore a strip of the both of them, now i was in mega rant mode, (is it a wonder) jesus christ...

They say farmiliarity breeds contempt, well it fits in this case.

To all reading this, If you haven't had any firearms safety instruction.. get some.. If you own guns and have kids, make sure you get your kids educated about firearms safety, because sure enough, one day the opertunity will arise where inquiring minds will become fiddling fingers. Keep your firearms out of reach of people who do not know what they are doing with them, or should not have access to them. Be safe !

Was sorely tempted this morning to bring up the front page of sniper country and turn the monitor sideways, we where bieng filmed for some documentarty on Canadian TV, some stuf about space debris. Though better of it , didn't want to get in bother for surfin'

About to go highseat building again, Tonight will be an all nighter up the tree after a pig, and tommorow is ( as i am luckily on nights) another driven boar shoot,, I'll post the result tommorow. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 13:37:44 (ZULU)

Kevin, knwo the feeling. Awhile back I had 5 or 6 M4's to test fire before putting into inventory. Went to a local range and explained what I needed to do, fire full auto etc. No one else was there, it was a day they set aside for LE only.  Guys said sure but as I walked away he asked if I was carrying a concealed weapon.  I was in my Detective car and suit so I said yes. He replied they did not allow any concealed weapons on the range. Here I am standing with 6 full auto M4's and he is worried about a 1911 in a holster. Go figure.

On another note. Afghanistan trip.  Contract came through but for only one of my guys. He is off in Jan for a few months. My partners and I are going for a few weeks then but only to  work on some more contracts over there. Anyone know of any comapnies needing good security over there let me know, we have some of the best guiys around, inccluding old Jefe.


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 15:28:08 (ZULU)

CIA hit list...


Tim Sarchett <>
dela-where?, - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 16:03:42 (ZULU)


 No matter what, we all have to keep on beating up everyone about safety--it is never ending.

Show Nicole (3 yrs) any firearm and ask her what it is and she'll respond, "a loaded gun, be careful cuz it can be dangerous and you can't play with it..."

I am usually calm in the face of fury and rarely lose my temper...but careless handling of a firearm by a soldier will get me going fasterer than anything else...

Blake can clear every firearm in the house, and most belt-fed in the inventory!  He came to work this weekend and played RSO at the "Engagement Simulator Device" we ran for some high schoolers this weekend.  I caught him bitching out some parent for leaving the weapon on "fire" -- priceless.  

Unfortunately, as you discovered, not all folks are as serious as they should be.  It makes us all look bad to the uninformed, so it is on us to keep kicking ass on the careless.  

PS-reread my post--it was the fuel "filter casing"-- not the pump-- in the passenger compartment of that MGB!  Who thunk that one up???

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 16, 2002, at 17:56:30 (ZULU)


You got mail.  No attachments

Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 19:48:27 (ZULU)

Mike Miller,

You have email, no attachments.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 20:50:36 (ZULU)

Hey you guys.

ANyone have a point of contact for Marty Neery.  Some of you guys know him from Storm Mountain.  If you do could you email me direct with the info.


Out here

Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit the leader in tactical marksmanship training - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 00:43:51 (ZULU)


Can you check my figures?

Math to Ponder

Ever wonder about those people who say they are giving more than 100%?  We have all been to those meetings where someone wants over 100%.  How about achieving 103%?  Here's a little math that might prove helpful.  What makes life 100%?



is represented as:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26.




8 1 18 4 23 15 18 11 = 98%



11 14 15 23 12 5 4 7 5 = 96%



1 20 20 9 20 21 4 5 = 100%



2 21 12 12 19 8 9 20 = 103%

So, it stands to reason that hard work and knowledge will get you close, attitude will get you there, and bullshit will put you over the top.

But, look how far ass kissing will take you.



1 19 19 11 9 19 19 9 14 7 = 118%

So the next time someone asks you to give more than 100%, you know what is required of you.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 03:56:25 (ZULU)

Byron:  I'll have to refer you to a professor of Business Stats.  He's comfortable with this type of calculation.  He also does consulting for the PolSci and the Psych Depts.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 04:55:35 (ZULU)


Going on graveyard tonight. Spent the last couple days off trying to get my body ready for the blessed event. Not much to tell from this end. Still rains and high wind, although it has let up this evening.

All for now...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 05:03:29 (ZULU)


Still pretty good p-dog shooting out in the badlands around Medora, we get out there a couple of times each summer and the populations seem to hold steady. Plague hasn't hit em here yet, hope it doesn't.

My son shot his first deer Sat. 75 yards with a .50 cal muzzleloader. He is almost as proud of himself as I am. Wants to try archery next year. I think I've had more fun trying to get him his deer this year than trying to get mt own.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 07:07:42 (ZULU)

Youse guys getting a bit of rain and cold, just enjoy it,we got the worst drought in 100 years happenin here and 40+ deg C. The roo's are comin out of the back country by the hundreds lookin for what grass is left on the farmland.Keeps me in somethin to shoot.

The latest word on Iraq,Sean penn says Mr Bush shouldnt pick on Saddam,so there, all you guys who thought there was gunna be a war can all settle down.



Gavan Willis <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 10:27:11 (ZULU)

R. Opp,

Tell your son ,congrats on the deer. I'm looking forward to the same experience.

Pete L.

Ass-reaming for dumb gun tricks... Deputy, no less, returned a 870 from Turkey season for me to have a look at and store for him in my vault. I removed it from the case(zippered) and rack the slide, force of habit, almost put my sons' eye out with a 3" mag turkey load as it ejected. Not only one but 4 more still in the "f"ing tube. No, the safety was not on. He came in the office yesterday morning after shift and all cheery says "well, whadya think of my 870?" I told him allright. I don't trust nobody but me, and I question me as well most of the time.


Received the rods Tues. morning. From an appearance standpoint they are impeccable. I'm impressed. I'll have some thawed out water by Sat. and try to try one out on a catfish with a bluegill for bait. Not exactly the same as bass but the weight and technique will be similar. If I had to guess on performance based on appearance, tip flex and sensitivity, I'd say we have a winner. No damage to any of them in transit. Any youse guys need a fishin rod built, Bolt is the "MAN".

For any who haven't experienced the affliction of "trigger finger" or Thumb, the cure is worse than the damn disease. A knot forms on the tendon of a finger or thumb and "pops" as you flex the finger. NO FUN. Thank God it's my left thumb and not really a trigger finger.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 11:14:00 (ZULU)

Robert Opp...

  The experience of hunting with ones' kids is priceless, as they say. Congrats. to you and your son.

  Here in the Alleghenies, taking ones first buck is sort of a right of passage, as hunting is a major part of the local culture; They even close school for the first week of deer season.

  My son, Brock took his first buck, an 8 point, about 16", when he was 11.  Shot it with a Model 7 FS in .223 with 69 gr. Speer bullet loaded to about 2800fps.  Not the ideal deer load, but it served him well and didn't beat him up with recoil.  He keeps shooting the s#*t out of that little rifle and I keep wondering when it will need a new barrel..When he got bigger, I took another model 7 in .243 and rebarrelled it to .250/3000 for him..That rifle has kept us in venison for many years, and this year his new wife used it to take her first buck..

  I wish your son much luck in the future as he pursues the tradition  of the outdoor life that is rapidly disappearing in  many parts of our nation.  

  outa here


Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 13:19:08 (ZULU)

6 MM  and Varget-- I finally decided to try the varget/175 combo that so many of you seem to like so much and my big rifle does not like it.  Tested lots of different velocity levels but nothing seemed to work.  It shoots little bitty groups with 168's but the best it would do with the 175's is 1.5", with most groups going over 2".  This was with 3 shot groups-  couldn't see the point of shooting 2 more with groups this big.  So now that I have 8 lbs of varget I thought I would give it a try in my 6 mm/40XB.  The rifle likes 85 gr sierra BTHP's .  Does anyone have any experience with this combo.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks.


rod hansen <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 13:34:39 (ZULU)


I shoot a 243 with a 95gr Nosler BT using 33gr Varget/WLR.  It's good enough for consistant sub MOA perfromance out of a 1972 Rem 788 with a pitted barrel ;))  Sorry, I haven't chrono'd it.

It's also great in 223.  I use 24.3gr in LC cases with 205M's and both 69 and 80gr SMK's.(a bit hot with 80's)  The 80gr load put 12 shots into the x ring at 600 yards, from a sling, with iron sights.

If I could find a way to use Varget in my 6.5x284,,, I'd do it...

If you don't have any luck with it and you happen to travel through TN,, let me know I'll take it off your hands.  In lue of that,, PeteR runs a VarGet support group.  Meetings are Saturday and Sunday,, bring hearing protection.


Chris <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 14:28:16 (ZULU)

Story of a 32 year old Ivy Leaguer with a couple of Master's Degrees (one in stats), a wife, a couple of kids and a mortgage who joined the Jar-Heads as a private.  Absolutely splendid behavior.  

God bless him.

This is old news, but, in case anyone doesn't know, Sadaam provided al Qaeda with VX gas.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 15:44:45 (ZULU)

Good day,

Quick question;  Anybody had a chance to do a hands-on eval of the Nikon Tactical line?  Optics, tracking, ruggedness???  How do they compare to Leupold, S&B, etc.?



Caison <>
Dela-where?, - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 16:25:41 (ZULU)

Hey Hawgs,

Hope everyone is doing fine, and also want to wish everybody a good hoiiday season.  

The reason I'm a hollering, I heard the boss say yesterday he is still looking for a qualified full-time armorer down here.  He would probably get to do some other things, but that would be his primary job.  I can't say what they would pay for that position, but this company tends to pay well.

You would have to be good with M16s,ARs,UZIs, MP5s, Glocks and Berretta/Taurus 92s.

You would probably be asked to help the Haitians with their weapons which also include M14s, Galils, and T65s.

If you are intrested, please e-mail me with a reseme attached.

Semper Fi,


jim reifinger <>
Port-Au-Prince, Haiti - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 18:03:38 (ZULU)

CDC - I think VX is most commonly encountered as a liquid..

Markwell - On that El Paso holster.. is that something fancy or are you simply talking about the standard tanker holster from WW2.  Someone is still making it and they can be purchase at a local hardware store near me for $30 US.  I have two, which are exact copies of the original I have, except the metal is bright chrome instead of black. I will check the stampings when I get home tonight.

medicjim <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 18:17:12 (ZULU)

Not much traffic across the DR these past couple of days.  When was the last pie fight over which is better between the HS stocks and McMillan???  

I'm with Caison, anyone done any testing on the Nikon Tactical yet?  Just looking at the price I'll still take the Loopie M3 LR but a good eval of their scope would be nice.

Happy holidays to all.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 18:52:48 (ZULU)

Sorry I jumped off so quick, but we had a small manifistation outside of the palace, so I had to go check things out.  All is fine they were pro-government folks.  Ahh the excitement of a third world nation. It keeps the blood pumping.

If you are really interested in this position and have the skills, we want to talk to you. It took a lot of hard work to convince the high-ups we needed one here.

I'll be glad when we hire one, because right now it's my job to keep the stuff working and I am a shooter not a gun plumber.  I wish now I would have paid more attention in the shop.

Later ya'all and S/F,



jim reifinger <>
Port-Au-Prince, Haiti - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 19:36:44 (ZULU)

Ref: Ft.McCoy Shoot

Any new information??  GO/NO-GO?

Ref: ASC (Golf Tournament)


Ref: 6.5x.284

I mailed George his check today.  I've got all my stuff on order from Premier and Sinclair.  Now I wait..........


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 19:39:54 (ZULU)

Kevin-- The golf outing is still on - working on dates.  We are looking at mid to late May.  We are working out the timing for another PD trip.  Priorities,priorities.  Will have a date for the match soon -maybe this week end.  Will post info as soon as we can.  Can you handle back-to-back days on the golf course?  Lots of new treats are in the works.  I'm really anxious to see how the new stick shoots- you must be jumpig out of your skin.


rod hansen <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 21:11:42 (ZULU)

Yep, gun safety, some of these German dudes( and i'm sure it happens all over) spend a small fortune in money and a bunch of man hours on doing the damn hunting licence course and then seem to forget all the weapon safety they where told. You wouldn't believe the many many times i have recieved a rifle or a shot gun that needed working on, (in its gun slip or not) with a damn live round up the damn spout. I personaly believe that we should have to do yearly qualification in weapon handling and shooting skills( but then i did that in the military), we would then maybe have better proficiency, less accidents, and might even get some decent range complexes into the deal, certainly better marksmanship would have saved me a 8 km hike back and forth tracking a wounded ( in its dam lower rear leg of all places!) fallow deer this afternoon.

Is there a world record for total pig hunting hours in one go? I fancy having a go at beating it... i've been practicing. Left work yesterday and went and put some screens on the openings in the tree stand i've been winterising/rebuilding, installed a new type of bait feeder, ( been using a wooden box about the size of a shoe box with a brick on top) a round metal container, chained to a stake, it has holes in it which drop corn when the pigs nudge it about, I've been finding that i get the pigs hot on the bait by the time i come to do night shifts at work, then when i go home for a few days they loose interest when all the corn is gone, I hope this rig up keeps em interested by stopping em grabbing all the corn at one go. Any way, hame for a shower and back to the woods by 21.00 hrs, hadn't been there long when i heared pigs, the buggers wouldn't come out of the shadows though, the wind was not quite right and i figure i put a load of scent down when i was working on the stand, I'd found my pig grunter call (in my daughters toy box) the other day and decided to have a go at grunting the piggies in, well, bugger me i thought, it dam well worked,. every time i grunted, im got an answer, and pig or pigs where circling the stand, but i could tell they knew something wasn't quite right, maybe to much human scent on the feeder, I could make out dark shapes in the brush but couldn't get a clear shot, i could hear a few different groups of pigs, there where a couple of sows with young ones, a group of yearlings( 12 - 18 months 30-45 kg) and a couple of old boars. One of the sows came into full view for a few seconds, nose in the air, sniffing away, and finaly 4 pigs all about the same size crossed at the end of the clearing, but no chance of a shot, none of them would go near the bait, let em get used to it, then it should be ok. Left the woods at 07.00hrs got some breakfast and got ready for the days driven shoot. We where basicaly in the same area of forest as the other week, got on my stand, this time an elevated stand about 4ft off the ground, got all my kit squared away and got settled in, began to see  movement, a group of roe deer about 250m away, watched them for a while. 3 fallow deer came galloping  out the thickets, i got two of them as they broke left and right either side of me. Then a herd of pigs went tearing past to my rear, but they where to far and behind to much brush, saw more deer, but to far off for a shot, and then some more pigs doing the same as the others, hightailing it asap, to far to much brush. Gralloched the deer at the 11.30 pause, back on stand, saw some more deer but couldn't get a good shot so i didn't bother, then two of the beaters came my way, and stood at the corner of a plantation, 2 big boar came running towards me, one was wounded, then they saw the damn beaters and veered off the other way, bugger I thought. about a half hour to go and another bunch of pigs are making thioer escape in the thicket behind me, damn to far - to thick. Then a lone pig, (maybe 50 kg) come back the way they went, but is a bit closer in a little more open ground, ah.. i wound the scope up a bit, swung through him, lined up with his nose, which wasn't easy as he was zig zagging between the trees, just as i was about to shoot, he headed directly for me ( about 125m) ah, easy shot i thought, lined up, zig, off he goes to my left, followed through again, zag- off he went to the right, this carried on until he had passed me to my left and was heading directly away from me, each time i had wanted to shoot, he did his Mohammed Ali shuffle and side stepped, that little guy had read his infantry training manual, that was a hard target if i ever saw one, I wasn't going to shoot him in the back as he was heading away from me,he had beat me fair and square, he brought a broad smile to my face, good luck to him. Just before close, a couple more fallow deer apeared galloping across to my rear, i shot the smaller of the two. That made 3 shots and 3 clean kills.

We gathered up all the shot animals and then had to do some "Nachsuche"searching for wounded deer/pigs. thats when the hike started, some one always manages to shoot some thing in the damn foot, and that hardly slows the animal down, but it is a shame to let it suffer. An interesting day, not as big a bag as last time, but still not bad, 36 hunters, shot 20 pigs and 20 deer. Night shift tonight,then 370km back home for a doc's appointment and another hunt in the morning, hectick week(again).


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 21:51:01 (ZULU)


Interested in hearing from military types who have run these courses.  I have just put one together and would like to match notes.

Pls respond to me at:

Merry Christmas everyone

Jefe <>
- Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 23:07:30 (ZULU)


   The cure for "trigger finger"?...are we talking the hypo needle into the joint, or the minor surgery? The needle into the joint is a fun one isn't it?

  grin and bear it

Louis Meyer <>
Floyds KNobs, Indiana, - Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 23:34:36 (ZULU)


    The new version 2 Longrange it just me or are the windage values in the sample version screwed up?

sorry about the double post....out

Louis <>
Floyds Knobs, Indiana, - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 00:12:57 (ZULU)

Damn ! I like Rumsfeld.

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 00:43:10 (ZULU)

Excellent quicky on VX Liquid/Gaseous states:

Nasty, nasty stuff! There was a special on one of the cable channels about the dude in Yermany that developed a lot of the WWI gases leading up to VX. On the same subject, just got home from giving a presentation on Hazmat to 9 girls and a guy in a health care explorer post. These kids were actually interested in what I has to say, I was impressed. There is hope, albeit small, for the next generations of heads of mush. BTW, if I was the guy, I would continue membership with that group. 9-1 ain't bad odds.


Man I was really worried that the rods would be stiffer than what you were looking for. A stiff rod is good for a lot of things, but sometimes not for live baiting. If your guys like the concept, there are a world of variables out there for live baiting rods.

Sam (winner of the riffle raffle rod),

Rod should be there tomorrow dude. If you like yours, I'll be 2 for 2.


Cortisone shot in the finger joint ain't that bad. They give you a towell to bite on. Course you could get likkered up and have your wifie take you to the doc. Try getting a cortisone shot in the arch and heel of your foot for plantar facitis. I actually bent the rail on the doc's bed, but I didn't say dirty words outloud.

On shooting,

Damn I wish I had some time to. Thinking of taking a week off and burning all the boolits that I have. Having withdrawals. Master Cockerham seems to be also.

Nuff said, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 01:59:47 (ZULU)


  Towel to bite down on? wonder I felt cheated when I had it done. I was supposed to get a series of 3 shots, but being the wus I am I din't go back after the first. One seemed to take care of it for several months but it's locking up again now. Especially after a good workout in the gym. Oh, mine wasn;t cortizone either, some other unknown burning fire.

Louis <>
Floyds Knobs, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 02:35:25 (ZULU)


Do you have a website that shows some of your rods (fishing rods that is)?  I'm thinking of eventually getting my dad a custom rod someday.  He mainly likes flyfishing (eastern PA, NY state and an anual trip to Canada)and appreciates a good stick.  I think he has one Orvis and a bunch of other less expensive ones.  I just thoughth somefin' more specialer would be nice.



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 04:39:39 (ZULU)

Let it snow!


~You have just been hit with an snow ball!~

It's the start of.....

Snow Ball Fight 2002 - 2003!!

One rule to this game....

You can NOT hit someone who has already hit you!


go out there and get as many people as you can,

before they get you!

I got you first! and you can't get me back!

Merry Christmas

Semper FI

bomac <>
- Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 04:43:04 (ZULU)

    I see that algor is not running for the Presidency in 2004. That's really too bad! Could you imagine the pie fight during the primaries and at the Convention? That much bad juju all in one place would've done nothing but hurt the Dems' chances in the election. Can someone out there figure out a way to get algor to change his mind? He can make Nancy Pelosi his running mate.

    Saw an interesting T-shirt today. It read "Just because you spent $15,000 and rode for 15 minutes it still doesn't make you a biker". Change a couple of words and it applies to some guys with rifles!

    H-S Precision stocks vs. McMillan? I have a few of both. H-S is better for the quick drop-in (maybe a little bedding and tweaking) full length aluminium V-block, a bit less costly, and a bit lighter on most models. McMillan offers many more styles and options, can do lots of custom work, take longer to get, generally cost more and are heavier. I like both brands, it just depends on what I'm looking for!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 05:04:30 (ZULU)

This VX thing is no joke.  Smallpox isn't funny either.  Whether or not we off Sadaam, we have a good chance of taking a hit.  If this mideval scum dares, Bush will make examples of them. Ask the surviving Taliban.

The alternative is to hope and deny and cower and die at our enemies' leisure.

Screw that.  Rummy and Bush have it right.  Preempt the bastards.  Kill them now.

There's a lot of talk about our war on terror losing us friends.  Machiavelli said that it is better to be feared than loved.  Wilt Chamberlin said that nobody roots for Goliath.  He'd know, so we may as well be feared.  

BLU-82s speak the universal language.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 05:20:22 (ZULU)

Any of you know any details on the H&K G3? A friend has a chance to get one for $400 NIB. Not sure of any other details. It sounds like a deal but I don`t know anything about them. He just wants a decent lead machine/fun gun and doesn`t want to go broke in the process. Parts avail? Reliable? Semi-accurate? Thanks for any info.

BTW, scored a nice four point in W V several weeks ago with the "M" Unfortunately, I misjudged the angle of approach due to fog (atmospheric and cranial) and placed one round squarely in the boiler room... only to have it exit near the hip on the outgoing side. Can you say "Ooooooo...yucky!" I did. Took me an hour to find him and near dark. Oh the things we learn (re-learn?).

Also, hope all of you have a safe and sane Christmas. Sorry, I`m not PC...

Speed Racer <>
Dillsburg, PA, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 06:51:56 (ZULU)

Speed Racer,

I once bought a "H&K 91 in mint condition" from a friend of a good friend. Once the "friend of a friend" was long gone, (with my money!) I got to finnally see the weapon. It was complete POS! It was not a H&K, but a H&K clone built up with tired G3 parts. Big blobbs of weld marks were visible, it was completely disgusting.

After the multiple attempts to locate the individual and get my money back were unsucessful, I simply shipped it off to my dealer with the instructions to get whatever he could for it. I was embarrassed to even have it in my safe! I never fired it, or even cleaned the turd.

I only offer the above comments as a warning that if it sounds like a "really good deal" that it might not really be that good a deal after all!

Don't purchase it without really verifying what it is!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 08:22:03 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any load info on the .280 Ak imp?  I'm hving one built for my father for xmas, and I want to give him some rounds to shoot.  I appreciate your help.


Mayhem <>
- Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 09:37:57 (ZULU)


They numbed it with lidocaine, in the first knuckle of the thumb, took the syringe off the needle and put a new one with 1/2 cc of cortisone on it and said,"is it numb yet?" They could have bypassed the lido. No towel anywhere in site. I asked if the cure was worse than the disease and the doc just laughed. Then I knew I was in trouble. I guarantee the one Bolt took in the foot hurt worse!!! GD man. OUCH twice.


It's supposed to be in the high 50's today. I'm gonna burn some ammo and resight a couple rifles and then fish this afternoon. I'll give ya a detailed email report later. I gave two away for Christmas. The guys LOVED 'em. Big Hit! Thanx!


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 10:30:34 (ZULU)

Cortizone injections,  

I have three disk bulges in by back and one attempt I tried to stay in the Army was to schedule a series of Cortizone injections in my spine, between L2 and L3.  The doc numbed me up and then was called away for an emergency room visit (milityary hospital).  By the time he got back the injection had worn off.  He wanted me to sit on the table and bend my head to my knees while he gave the injections.  After about the 5th time of him scraping the needle across one of my vertibrate he asked me to get into the fetal position on my side, where he forced a needle between the cartilage and the vertibrate and proceeded to pump two syringes of that crap into my spine.  It felt like an egg sitting in there.

It did work for about 30 days,, but when it started to wear off and it came time to go back for round two,, I passed...

So,, enjoy your cortizone expierence,, it's something I'll never forget.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 12:16:17 (ZULU)

Guys take it from a nurse that use to work the Operating Room and also had a trigger finger problem...get it fixed right the first time!!! Screw them cortisone shots! Take 1/2 a day for the surgery...door to door, and it solves the problem THAT finger!! Mine was in the...OK NO COMMENTS REMEMBER I CAN DELETE YOU...middle finger right hand! Had it fixed 3 years ago and never regretted it!!

Sarge, with his good finger posed on the delete keys!

Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 13:49:52 (ZULU)

Speed Racer,

The HK-G3 is the full-auto (Class-III) version of the HK-91.  An HK91 in very good condition is ~$2K, NIB ~$2.8K, terrible shape ~$1.7K.  The clones, such as CETME, etc., typically go for ~$400+/-.

A real HK-G3, in any condition, will go for a MINIMUM of $5K, probably much higher.  I can't afford (or want) these, so I'm not up on the pricing.

Even if it is a real HK-G3, and really is only $400, you still have a ton of paperwork to fill out, assuming the local PD will allow you to own a Class-III weapon. Then you get to talk with the ATF.

The entire scenario is nonsense.  Go to to get an idea of what HKs go for, or

Class-III weapons should not be purchased on a whim.

Duman <>
- Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 15:30:46 (ZULU)


I didn't really look at them in much detail, guess I'll have to go back and check it again while I wait for my copy to get here.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 15:34:22 (ZULU)

The McCoy deal is still on AFAIK.  Joe M has said that the people up there have pretty much dropped their rucks for the holidays and so nothing from the McCoy people is going to happen until after New Years.  I have received the OK for a couple vehicles from my Bn so we'll have a back up plan to get there, and I have not asked for the aircraft yet, pretty much for the same reasons as mentioned above, plus I don't have solid dates yet.  As soon as I get solid dates, I'll jump on the planning and let you guys know.  

I'm also doing a lot of planning for an indoc/selection to boost numbers in the platoon right now, so that's eating up my time also.  Sorry, but I've got to put work before pleasure.  

280AI:  I have not received my rifle yet, but the dies are on the way from Redding.  Varmint hunter magazine had a good article on the 280AI in this monthes edition, and Nosler lists loads in their reloading manual.  What bullets do you plan on using?  What powders do you have?  Narrow it down a little and I'll see what I can do.

Anybody ever try the 19caliber cartridges from Calhoon?  I'm thinking of getting the 22 Hornet Ruger rebarreled and this 19 Calhoon(Hornet case blown out and necked down) critter looks kinda neat.

Last thing, anyone have or use a Cooper rifle?  They look like the cat's ass for a nifty little, semi-custom light varminter and I'd like to know if there's any hidden glitches that I don't know about.  Everything I've seen has been positive so far.  S/F...Ken M          

Ken M <>
Occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 16:16:16 (ZULU)

Bolt, that VX site you posted?

Atropine to the heart....!?  Reminds me of the scene in Pulp Fiction where Uma Thurman recovers from a Heroin overdose when the "antidote", a large dose of Epinephrine, is administered directly through her sternum, into her heart, via a VERY large needle. (what's wrong with Narcan?)

As a medic, I advise everyone to avoid having anything sharp inserted into your heart...unless, of course, you are dead, in which case, it's OK <grin>.

Dead collector: Bring out your dead!


Collector: Here. He says he's not dead.

Man: Yes he is.

Old Man: No I'm not!

Collector: He isn't?

Man: Well he will be soon. He's very ill.

Old Man: I'm getting better!

Man: No you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment.

medicjim <>
- Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 18:19:28 (ZULU)

Alan and Lito,

You've got mail. No attachments.


MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 19:08:19 (ZULU)

Atropine goes in the meaty portion of the thigh, or alternatively the ass cheek.  You want to stick some large gauge needle into your heart, which is at 120+ psi pressure, you feel free.  Just don't point the resulting geyser of blood at me, cause I'll beat your ass and make sure no medical help arrives.  Darwin is hard at work again.  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M <>
Occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 20:11:35 (ZULU)

Ref: Atropine Autoinjectors

TINS (This Is No Shit)....While attending IOBC at the Ft.Benning School for Boys I attended a Bugs'n Gas Class.  The instructor took out an atropine autoinjector and began to explain why a "meaty" spot should be chosen for the injection in order to avoid sticking the needle into a bone.  The instructor then pressed a loaded injector against the backside of a 1/2" plywood sign.  There was a loud "thunk" and atropine sprayed the first two rows of soldiers in the class.  Those things are serious pieces of equipment.  I'd have to be dieing to use one.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 20:31:42 (ZULU)

>>>Any of you know any details on the H&K G3? A friend has a chance to get one for $400 NIB.<<<

Yeah, I know some details about H&K G3s.  I know you ain't gonna buy a NIB one for $400!  Even if that's a misprint and you forgot a "0" a NIB G3 will set you back close to $6,000.  Plus several months of mental pain waiting for the ATF to approve your purchase since it's an NFA class weapon (full auto).

What you're probably looking at is a H&K 91 clone parts gun, maybe built by Hesse Arms or Century Arms on a POS receiver with worn out parts and a barrel with chicken pox, in somebody's garage by somebody following preprinted instructions, without benefit of any proper H&K alignment jigs or tooling (which is vital).  In which case it's probably worth ~$400.

I just had a 91 clone built by a former Vollmer smith (one of only three guys in the US building quality 91s) on an FMP receiver with new parts on H&K equipment.  Cost me $1,600 and one year to complete.

>>>Not sure of any other details.<<<

SpeedRacer, tell your friend to find out everything he can about the gun before parting with his money.  It's only $400 but with some of the crap that's passed off as "H&K" guns, it's worse than throwing money into the crapper.

But then he can say, "Lookie, I got a H&K G3!  Yippie!"  


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 21:32:16 (ZULU)


  Saw your reference to Vollmer, ordered a HK53 from them several years ago..excellent craftsmanship. Wish I had picked up a few more of them considering the price 51's and 53's fetch today. Someone said Class 3's shouldn't be bought on a whim...hmmmmm...good ones are good investments in my opinion. They are expensive to feed though.

  lou lou out

Louis <>
Floyds Knobs , In., USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 22:16:11 (ZULU)

'Lito or other Rostah Hawgs:    

    A Winchester question for ya!  I adjusted the Stealth trigger down to slightly under 3 lbs, and it works mighty fine.  On the 7mag I couldn't get less than 4lbs so a coil of the spring departed....but still cannot get less than 4-5lbs without running out of spring tension (ie; striker won't cock).  So, I'm ordering a couple new springs hoping they'll be a tad lighter, or should I be looking at something else?  Suggestions appreciated, and Merry Christmas to all!

Jerry S. <>
Snow Country, MN, USA - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 22:17:10 (ZULU)

Damn, didn't realize I was playing to such a tough audience. Yeah, yeah the guy was a little off on antidote administration but the poop was still good. I wrote the guy an email so that he can clarify.

Remember that before the Mark 1 kit, there were really really long needles! No heart beat, no Mark 1/2-Pam, must go into heart muscle with CPR. Sarge confirm!

Here is another one of my hundred or so sites for bio and methyl-ethyl-bad-shit information.


If you have to use one YOU ARE DYING! I carry Epi-pens even in the winter. Better than nuttun.

On the cortisone,

Also, there are only so many shots that they will put into an area before it starts causing soft tissue damage (according to my bone doc). Told me that the next time the plantar facitis problem starts up, he is going to start cutting tightening.


Don't have a website, way to frigging expensive. I have a couple of pics that I am going to try to paste onto one of those freebie photo sites tonight. Serious fly fishermen are very anal about what they buy (I know cause I used to be a fly fisherman and I am still anal about lots o stuff). Anywho, it is hard to compete against the Winstons and Orvis's of the world. I could use the same components, build them better and charge less and they still wouldn't sell without those logos. I love to build those little toothpicks though!


Iffin there is even a sniff of NBC stuff, we ought to turn the place into a giant glass skating rink.

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 22:19:49 (ZULU)

Bolt:  A couple of weeks ago the administration said some technical mumbo-jumbo that sounded something like, "any use of WMDs against our civilian population or military forces would be met with the full range of our response capabilities."  

"Full range" is code for nukes.

Item 18 at the bottom of this page suggests that 60% of the American people agree with that policy.  Works for me.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 22:39:29 (ZULU)


I hope everyone is well.  I have been tied up again for the past few weeks and have been really slow to respond to some e-mails.  My apologies.  I will catch up soon.

Pete Lincoln

Just wanted to let you know that I have not received the Steyr rings.  I sent you an e-mail, but it bounced.  If you have sent them, you might want to put a trace on them.  Thanks again.  Please hit my e-mail below if you need to pass along any information as the Roster is hit-and-miss for me lately.

In case I don't get the chance in the next week, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Semepr Fi

Paul <>
NC, USA - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 01:14:34 (ZULU)

Bolt, I'll sort of my current line of work (ER nurse) I haven't seen a cardiac needle - the VERY LONG needles you were probably refering to, used. Most all our drugs now days are given by the good old IV route that most of our great paramedics - and NO I'm NOT be sarcastic our Medics really are great - put in prior to the patients ever getting to us. The point of any type of medical care and it doesn't make any difference what we're talking about, car accident, cut off limb, snotty runny nose, NBC the ultimate care is rapid arrival at an appropriate treatment facility. And most of the Medics I know, both civilian and military, are pretty well able to deal with this stuff. Unfortunately time will tell!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 01:57:58 (ZULU)

Sometimes minimal camoflage is better!

An interesting bandolier?

Extension of minimal camoflage shown above.

And finally, Special Operations camo for North Pole.

Sweet dreams, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 03:18:58 (ZULU)


        When I was fourteen years old I watched helplessly as the Doc sunk a very long cardiac needle into my dad. First time I had ever even heard of that. He didn't make it.

        I've had cortisone injected directly into my spine and a shoulder joint on several different occasions. Two spinal shots one month apart back in 1972 by a great orthopedic Doc (advisor to then - Pres. Nixon). Didn't feel anything more than a sting. No more trouble!

About eight years ago a local orthopod hit me twice in my left shoulder, again about four weeks apart. Just a sting, so I had to ask him how come? He explained that doctors who are very experienced specialists know exactly where to give the injection and just how to administer it. Just a matter of training and practice. Worked for me:-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 05:15:41 (ZULU)

In case I wasn't the only one who couldn't access the ac-130 video posted here a few days ago, click on my name for a link, scroll down, the link is in one of the post.

I found this link in a search, not a member of this club.


Robert H <>
ne, ca, USA - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 05:34:15 (ZULU)

Hey Bolt,

We see where you've been spending your spare time lately ;)) Christmas presents for Mrs. Bolt, I presume? ;))))


Nothing in our protocols about sticking a needle into a heart!!  That'll get my Paramedic license yanked in a New York second for sure. If NBC becomes imminent, all of that could change... possibly :(( We only carry Atropine for medical and organophosphate poisoning. Nerve gas is only an "also mention." We sure don't have any 2-Pam to go with it either (and you're damn well going to need it with a 5mg injection).

We may have some serious "catching-up" to do and you Haz-Mat Medics will have to lead the way.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 05:34:39 (ZULU)

Now there's the Bolt I know! Fun fun fun...... You'll be getting incoming tomorrow, no nasties. I'd bid on something like that, but they never give me everything in the picture when I do, the crooks.

Thanks for the tips guys, I got the material going just fine. Now I'm looking for other stuff, same project.

Jaeger <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 05:41:28 (ZULU)

Hazmat medics:  Time will tell if you're ready.  Maybe not much time.  All the news reports say that Sadaam intends to take as many of us with him as he can.  His command structure may not follow his Doomsday orders.  Maybe they will.  If they do, the administration intends to make examples of them.  Fine with me.

The SDI deployment in Alaska is meant to screw up NK's "bee sting" strategy.  It's funny how the media is playing up our 50% probability of getting a one round hit on a missle.  Infantry rifle rounds have something like a 1/40,000 chance of getting a hit.  I wonder if The New York Times would cite that as a reason to stop issuing rifles to our grunts.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 06:00:11 (ZULU)

Can we please all chip in and get Litosan a PC that works ??

I fear the MAC has him listed as MIA.

Lito where are You??

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 11:46:18 (ZULU)

Pete, try to reach you on your mail

Please answer

Val Sessink <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 12:21:50 (ZULU)

Chris & Yotebait...

  I got a chance to cronograph my loads and "May" have found some of my problems with the stringing at long range. I was getting as high as 50fps difference in some of the strings.

  I don't understand where its coming from either. All of my charges are very consistant. The only thing I was noticing is that after sizing down the Lapua brass (308) to the 260 my bullets seat a little tighter than I like.

  On the flip side of this I sized down some Lapua brass several years ago for my 260 and never had any problems with them. With that kindof spread in velocity that can make as much as 6" to 7" in point of impact at 700 and 800yds.

  Another thing is, now, when I was crongraphing the loads, it shot like crap at 100yds. I am begining to think I am going backwards!!!

 After I first got it back and put it in the stock I noticed that I had just a tad bit of movment between the stock and barrel when I loosened and tightened the front action screw. When it shot so well at 100 and 200 I didn't give it anymore thought but to be on the safe side I rebeded it again last night.

  Its probably going to be awhile now before I get back out to see if I did any good. Our weather has turned to crap and winter has arrived!!

  Yotebait, coyote hunting in the hills sucked!! We killed 4 but just didn't see many. The pastures and grass lands are nearly dirt from the hot dry summer we had. Things look really bad, if we don't get some snow and rain we will really be in trouble next year.

Pat <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 14:36:03 (ZULU)


This may be obvious, but sometimes we overlook these things.  When you neck down cases, the necks get thicker.  If these cases were thicker to begin with they could be on the high end of the scale and this could be creating your seating tension difference.  ALso, necking down can creat the "dreaded doughnut" inside the case.  Maybe a little inside reaming is in order (if your bullets are seated out far enough to contact the ring).

Did you also say you had to switch primers?  Maybe that was someone else...


Caison <>
Dela-Where?, - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 16:03:06 (ZULU)


 I finally got a shot on the shrew that's been driving my wife crazy in the old farm-house.  Yeah, I said "shot"...I had Blake's old Crossman pellet gun in hand as I returned from the barn from my mouse expedition, came through the front door as the shrew-monster was hopping down the stairs into the basement.  They move perty-quick for not opening their eyes much!  Now, I hastily tossed in a pellet and pumped twice--took the shot from the old two eyed room clearin' technique and nailed him in mid-hop.  Part instinct, mostly luck.  Afterwards, I court martialed my cat.  He is not living up to his end of the deal. Old Tom' the cat is confined to the barn, reduced to private and placed on half-rations.  My first "field grade" UCMJ action.  How lazy is a cat that can't catch a damn shrew? Maybe the half-rations will help his hunting skills along.

On the serious side, the Kuwait thing is moving forward.  Admin shit is coming at me.  This is also surpisingly lucrative--who'd a thunk it?  I'd go for the adventure potential, but the cash incentive is substancial--it must be hard to find majors to fill these jobs.  With the sound of guns in the distance, you'd think the line would be long to get over there...Not so, and I find that a bit strange...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 17:12:19 (ZULU)

Joe M:  That's very strange.  After the attacks I was sure that Army and Marine Combat Arms would be swamped with volunteers.  They weren't.  I don't understand this.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 17:35:15 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas Rostah!

Pat, you don't have any of the 'old' Lapua brass around to try out, do ya?  oh, and it's nice to hear that the weather's went to hell back there, just in time....  We have a white christmas type look, but it ain't snow.. It's frost that hangs around all day.  that and frozen fog.


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 17:36:46 (ZULU)


 My conversation with my branch manager went like this--"Joe, dude I can hook you up..."  "we have this and that and this and that" (all choice stateside deals from SOCOM to flight instructor)  I asked, "got anything in the hot spots?"  SILENCE.  Then he says "you're kiddin' me right?  Man, I've gotta fill these Kuwait billets, but I can't find anybody willing to go...."  

The rest is history from there.  But I wondered...why aren't there more like me wanting to go?  Is it family time for my peers or what?  Yeah, it's a short tour...but hell, we are all likely to be there anyway right?  May as well use it to get choice on return.  Among other things, this is important to keep Nicole in her clinic...but where are the warriors?????


Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 18:06:06 (ZULU)


 It's that whole "Army of One" thing working.  Few march to the sound of the guns anymore.  Those that do are reviled by those driving SUVs to junior soccer matches.  "it's Tommy this and Tommy that..."


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 18:29:24 (ZULU)

>>where are the warriors?????<<

Joe - I believe you'll need a mirror to answer that question.

"No man was ever endowed with a right without being at the same time saddled with a responsibility." - Gerald W. Johnson

medicjim <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 18:35:24 (ZULU)


The People's Republik of Kalifornia is at it again.  Civil liberties?  I guess they only apply if you're Anglo, Asian, Hispanic or Negro.

And they thought they were leaving it all behind...


Caison <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 18:40:56 (ZULU)


Those Joint tours are great, make a lot of connections that way. Yeah it sucks to be away from the Fam, but I guess we are in the kinder, gentler military now a days. The "hardship" must me too much for most to bear. Hopefully after P-cola and sloshin' around in the Phrogg at the FRS, I'll see ya over there

Any one got a good load for 175SMK's @2580? Got a whole can of Lake City match .308 brass that is doing a whole lot of nothing in the closet right now, so I guess I'll load the stuff.

Kush out

Phroggs Phorever

Kush <>
Pensacola, Florida, - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 18:59:21 (ZULU)

Warrior--ha. Double ha!  I was briefed yesterday on the financial benefits of my volunteerin' to go there--and now I am a mercenary!  Damn if there ain't some serious bennies.  Tax breaks, separation pay, combat zone pays, and special per diems.  All that and another combat patch.  

 And here I was worried that I wouldn't get the assignment due to a high demand....I just don't get it.  Now I learn that the money is good too, and I'm double-baffled!  I think Kevin nailed it with the Tommy soccer mom thing...


Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 19:10:23 (ZULU)

No new warriors? There's a new generation out there between Desert Storm and the events of today. The same liberal yuppie scumbags that elected Clinton/Gore and kept them in office for eight years despite their criminal acts are also responsible for todays young people who are not joining our "Army of One". Ask Johnny Taliban!

You guys who are active military may not be getting the same signals from our troops in the war zones that I'm getting. I hear a lot of feedback about inaction, PC warfare, trial and prosecution for taking the inititive to the enemy, CO's whose main fear is battlefield casualties, and kowtowing to some pisspot tinhorn raghead leader who's main fun in life is making himself look like a bigshot in front of his fellow goat fuckers at the expense of thr Americans.

We've got far too many Generals who are only concerned with their career paths, too many politicians who are only concerned with the poll figures from their constituents, and too many faggot Ivy League wonks in Foggy Bottom, and a liberal press, who do nothing but push their One World/United Nations adgenda.

We didn't strike when the iron was hot after 9/11, we didn't rally our people (and we could have) immediately, and now many are either indifferent or demoralized. I posted about the possibility of this happening right after 9/11, and was roundly rebuked by several here in the Military, and I don't blame them in the least. How can they keep up their morale, and the morale of their troops, if they bought into my theories? It doesn't make me feel at all good about saying "I told you so", but I'm drawing from personal experience in SEA thirty five years ago. Our politicians can't seem to learn from history.

In any case, for those of you who are heading into harms way, may God be with you, may you prevail in battle, and may you be just be plain lucky!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 20:10:00 (ZULU)


 Yea, I know thats whats causing the tight fit an its not all that bad. I had thought about reaming but I have a ton of other brass to try too.


 You damn bet you I do!! I have all of it left and will try some when it clears up and quits blowing again. 25 to 35mph today gusting to 45mph. Been that way for the last 3 days!!

Pat <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 20:15:01 (ZULU)

I just read that kalifornistan is about to spend 35 billion dollars more than it has projected for income...Grey-area Davis never met a dollar projection he couldn't outspend.  

I have a brilliant idea.

Let's take our "african zillions" and buy Kalifornistan for pennies on the dollar.  It would make for a great range complex...heheheheh.

And hey, why aren't those socially conscious celebs breaking out their checkbooks to help out?  Charity starts at home, right?  Or is their endless bleating on what "we as a country" ought to be doing in this world just noise?  Why ain't they puttin some money where their mouth's been?  ...snicker.  

I just might go to the foreclosure just to keep the PRC from buying that dump...snicker-snicker.  

I jes' love it when the Democrats have the opportunity to prove their fiscal abilities on such a grand scale...Baaaaaaw-haawww-hawwwwww... sides are hurtin'...Baaaw-haawwwww!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 20:23:43 (ZULU)


That slow ya might as well throw 'em.

Winchester brass  Fed210   175 SMK   VV N-150 45.2 grains  2605

Winchester  Fed210   175 SMK   VV N-550 44.5 grains  2598

Winchester  Fed210   175 SMK   IMR-4064 43.5 grains  2588

everything tested at 1099'ASL and 74 degrees  10 twist 23.5 inch barrel.

Mike inTexas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 20:33:17 (ZULU)

Kevin:  "Those that do are reviled by those driving SUVs to junior soccer matches..."


I don't know what it's like around where you live, but I drive a SUV to junior soccer matches.  It bores the s**t out of me.  Most all the dads are gun-owning Republicans who respect the fine kids who've put themselves in harm's way.  

ALAN:  We've got 70% support for deposing Sadaam and 60% support FOR NUKING HIS ASS if he uses WMDs.  That's pretty solid support.

I'm just wondering why young American men didn't stampede the recruiters on the afternoon of  9/11/'01.

They grew up on those stupid Sylvester ("sufferin' succotash") Stallone and Steven Segall movies.  They wear "No Fear" t-shirts.

I don't know what to think.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 20:38:39 (ZULU)


Good reply on the SUV thing.  HA!  I drive mine (Xterra w/ "Got Mildots?" and "Legalize Freedom" bumper stickers) to LR matches as well as cheerleading practices.  Years ago it was the Volvo 'wagon to socceer matches while I was active duty.

Oh.  The Xterra not only wears the above bumper stickers, but it also has a H-D sticker (we ride a suicide-shift '72 stripper FL 74), American Flag and "Retired USMC" stickers in the rear window.

(But I call it a "truck"!)

So much for the "SUV drivin' Liberal" theory...


Just yankin' you folks that believe in that theory!

hee hee.



dennis <>
merced, Kalifornicateya, USA - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 22:20:15 (ZULU)


    The reason politicians don't learn from history is because they are busy revising it. Don't want to be offend anyone or teach people about mankind's shortcomings. Kinda like why is it you never see WW2 cartoons on TV?


   I'm in Mobile. I can get that LC match brass if it's in your way.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 23:27:49 (ZULU)

Ref: SUVs

Ok..Ok...I'm sorry....I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.  I should be more sensitive.  What I wrote was hurtful and and mean sprited.  Bwaaahhahahahahhaaaa.!!!!!


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 00:06:24 (ZULU)

Kevin:  Some part of this conversation went right by me.  Driving a SUV in New York must mean something different than driving one in Idaho.  We're not what you'd call overly sensitive.  

I'm not going to get in another useless pissing contest.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 00:48:38 (ZULU)

Mike in Tejas,

Thanks mang

Yeah, I know it's slow, but that's what speed my scope on my rifle is set up to track, pretty much the M118LR in a nut shell. It is appreciated.


That's why I'm loading it up, tired of lookin at it, and besides, new manufactured ammo is killing the bank account. Any good ranges in the area? We have a piddly range here in Santa Rosa county, but I need to start hitting the distance to fine tune the longer range settings.

Joe, you kill me

Later Hawgs

Semper Fi

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Florida, - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 00:50:17 (ZULU)


Now Andy's Dad,  I don't FEEL (you know, like a LIBERAL would...) hurt or disenfranchised, or even offended because of your comments.  Just an excuse to get on here and do a little yankin'.  (NOT wankin')

hee hee.

And I DO laugh at them's that can't figure out to park them BIG ones.  

 Sounds like we got a bunch of turds that just want the pay and security moreso than the old days even.  Can't even call the coc*suc*ers wannabes.

And I hate a wannabe as much as I hate an ass-kisser.


dennis <>
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 01:05:22 (ZULU)

Louis wrote:

"Someone said Class 3's shouldn't be bought on a whim...hmmmmm...good ones are good investments in my opinion. They are expensive to feed though."

I would love to acquire some NFA weapons, but my local PD chief won't even talk to me about this stuff, let alone sign off on such things.

I said the 'whim' comment because Speed Racer is clearly in over his head.  I think that stuff makes for great investments, and great fun. Don't know if my Dillon could keep up with the grocery bill............

Duman <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 01:10:26 (ZULU)

Ok it can quit snowing any day now!  I just got a savage 12bvss in 22-250 and can't even shoot it, this is driving me crazy.  

Suv thing:  I have a truck and an Suv, both 4x4. It's just part of life in the hills, cars with 4" of ground clearence don't do too well in 2 feet of snow.  Did you guys see the comercial about "What would Jesus drive?"  trying to slam suv owners for not caring about the earth?  Saw this guy on fox news come up with the best answer yet.  "Jesus was a carpenter, he would be driving a full size 4wd truck with a V8 and a lumber rack."

CDC:  Did you know a Chem teacher at ISU, last name Phelps, husband is an ER Doc, now live in Chico?

Back to counting snow flakes.


Robert H <>
snowy, Ca, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 02:50:06 (ZULU)

Dennis (Spud):

I agree with you completely. Ass-kissers, Ha ;)


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 03:02:22 (ZULU)

Whoever is harvesting addresses off this site is wasting their time with me.  I'm not sending my bank account numbers to Bongo Bongo, and I'm not going to any porn sites.  The girls weren't issued first rate genetic material and they look like they don't floss.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 03:29:17 (ZULU)


 You say your local police chief won't sign off for a Class 3 weapon you want?....bypass him, or her. I had assumed when I went to buy one that I had to have the local sheriff/police chiefs OK. It can be any number of "political" electee's (is that a word?). If you are in a Class 3 state, you can get certain judges signature, your representative or senator, not sure which, maybe either, or one of several other office holders. Where are you located? Try visiting ATF's online site, I believe that is where I have seen this information. Fortunately I live in a local where the Sheriff was glad to see me acquire a selectfire....imagine that!

     good luck

Louis <>
Floyds Knobs, In, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 03:33:53 (ZULU)


In response about the availability of the Unertl Scope


We have the 10X in stock for immediate delivery for the M40 (7.62), we do not have the 10X ready for the 50 Cal. We have been delivering the 10X Tactical for several months.

Best regards,

Rocky Green

Unertl Optical Company, Inc.

bomac <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 06:50:07 (ZULU)

To all who posted to my G3 question, I have since had some time to begin to figure out the history and nomenclature of these fire sticks and it is all now clear as mud. But clear enough that I`m sure my Bud will decide to walk away. I thought it sounded wrong that a gennie HK would be $400. Thanks for the help, that`s why I come learn.

"The only thing dumber than yur question is being afraid to ask it"

Speed Racer <>
Dillsburg, PA, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 07:20:13 (ZULU)

To all who posted to my G3 question, I have since had some time to begin to figure out the history and nomenclature of these fire sticks and it is all now clear as mud. But clear enough that I`m sure my Bud will decide to walk away. I thought it sounded wrong that a gennie HK would be $400. Thanks for the help, that`s why I come learn.

"The only thing dumber than yur question is being afraid to ask it"

Speed Racer <>
Dillsburg, PA, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 07:20:51 (ZULU)

Class 3 applications,

Instructions Sheet for ATF form 7 or OMB# 1512-0042: #4: "Applicant must submit copy #2 of this form to the chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the premises sought to be licensed are located. The CLEO is the Chief of Police, Sheriff or an equivalent officer or the designee of such individual."

This is a licence to sell firearms as a business. I included a NFA tax form OMB 1512-0472 to include NFA weapons sales and tranfers and pay the fees.

It seems to leave a lot open to interpretation, "designee?".

The Asst. Chief Deputy did the fingerprints but wouldn't sign off with out the Sheriffs review. And I know 'em both. The whole process was confusing as hell from the beginning.


You need sensitivity training. :))))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 11:33:48 (ZULU)


Tell us how you really feel, man!  It's okay, don't hold back becaus of us...

I agree with you wholeheartedly and then some.  And it's not just the Generals going politico, a lot of people are only concerned with who's a$$ they have to kiss for their next promotion.  Good thing I'm a non-com, I'd probably not been able to stick around long enough as an officer to retire...


Caison <>
Dela-Where?, - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 13:03:59 (ZULU)

Hey HOGs, all this badmouthing of Calif bugs me.  A few things. In CA we have:

1. The dumbest damm liberals in any land.

2. The worst politicians of any land not in the USSR

3. One of if not the best sniper schols in the world Camp Pendeleton USMC

4. The SEAL Teams training at Coronado, Pretty FNG good dont you think?

5. Mentioned in famous  "Country Boy Will Survive" song, not many of you other states can claim that.LOL

Now if we can get rid of numbers 1 and 2 we will be on top.

I drive a SUV, I hate soceer and sport a "Got MIldots" bumper sticker on my truck.

MikeMiller <>
CA, - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 14:09:40 (ZULU)


Thanks for the info.  I'll look into it.  Like John in B'Town (Bloomington?) said, it's open to interpretation, which makes the process difficult.

Speed Racer,

No offense intended, sorry if you took any of the G3 talk that way.  If you're serious about HK's, go to  It's THE best forum for HK related stuff, including answering questions about prices, clones, Class-3 info, etc..  Class-3 equipment is a serious business, and you might locate a Class-3 dealer in your area for the latest info.

The ATF surfs a lot of sites, including this one, looking for people who are dealing in heavily regulated gear.  It's easy to get into trouble, even if your intentions are innocent.

Happy Holidays, everyone!!

Duman <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 14:18:34 (ZULU)


I read your comments on getting the CLEO signatures. I chatted with a guy in Ohio. He had the same trouble. He owns a business, and just listed the corporation as the buyer. No finger print cards, no CLEO, no passport photos. He says it took about a month for approval. You ever hear of this before? Of course my Sheriff was only too happy to sign my applications.

Might try to get out to the range before Christmas if it doesnt rain too much.


If somebody has a full auto G3 they want to sell for $400 it's either stolen, or somebody's trying to set you up. Either way it's bad ju-ju, and to be avoided at all costs. If you want to see what a legal G3 sells for go to They are listed there from $6,000 to about $8,000.



William Bledsoe <>
outback, ky, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 14:55:02 (ZULU)

Mike Miller:  Soccer is a game for children who are too young for real sports.  It teaches team work and individual iniative and is good exercise.  It bores me cross eyed.  

Gun deals:  If you even get a FAINT WHIFF of something squirrely, don't be manipulated, don't be smooth talked, just WALK AWAY.  You'll never get better advice than that.  

All of you have probably seen this on Drudge.  For any who haven't, it's, "Missing: four tons of nerve gas, 8.5 tons of anthrax, and assorted nuclear bomb parts" in Iraq.  Wonders await.  Oh s**t.:

And I don't know what to think about the round up of Iranians who are in technical violation of their visa stipulations.  It's either incredibly ham-handed and clumsy, or something's up.  Something needs to be.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 15:22:06 (ZULU)

I just want to clear up this soccer mom deal.  There is a big difference between the soccer mom's driving the SUV in the US and the Scotty football mama's at the Celtic/Rangers matches.  Beeeg difference..  The soccer fans here in general are insane.  If you go to Glasgow, there will often be a sign outside the pub stating 'NO FOOTBALL COLOURS ALLOWED', because football fans are insane.  There are fans from Glasgow(in Scotland on west coast) that travel to Newcastle(In england, on east coast) to watch soccer games, not necessarily because their team is playing, just because no one from Newcastle knows them like, and because football fans are insane.

I didn't like football/soccer at first, but I do get a kick out of it now, more for watching the insane fans and chanting their chants, watching the hatred between rival fans.  They literally HATE each other.  Good stuff..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 16:20:40 (ZULU)

Val, sent you a mail, no go for the 27/28th, i'm off for xmas.

Paul C. hang in there buddy, the rings are on thier way, the post seems to be taking wayyyyy to long between europe and the US, i've been waiting for nearly 3 months for some stuff from Brownells, (they said it had been stuck at US customs), the damn German post seem to have lost a parcel i sent to Sarge, ( any sign of parcell #2 yet Sarge?) I presume that the rings are caught in the xmas stuff.

I was on a shoot on the training area this week, good to see old faces again, wasn't much game about but it was a good afternoon out for the dogs, had some interesting conversations with some of the guys who are still serving, There where a couple of Tank commanders and a Ssgt combat engineer, the engineer was on the same german hunting licence course as i was back in 93, we had a good chat about the reworked SA80 and sniper rifles, the concensus of opinion is that the SA 80 is still a crock of shit. Also that the caliber of recruit these days is far below what it was 16 years when we joined, back then we joined because we wanted to, it seems that these days many join because it is either that or umemployment benefit. The lack of moral standing in todays society is also apparent in the armed forces,with crime and insubordinence on a rapid increase. I have heared the same from every single British Soldier i have talked to over the last 3 years.

On another note,Financial advantages to deployment:  we Brits ALWAYS loose money when we depoly, the only benefit we had in the field or on deployment was that we didn't have to pay for food or accomodation, ( and maybe didn't have anywhere we could spend money)and the married guys got a separation allowance, but we lost all things like living overseas allowance etc. The separation allowance or the gain in not paying for food/accom' did not make up for the loss, infact it didn't even half way cover the difference. But financial gains or losses never seemed(for most) to be a factor in a decision to volunteer for a deployment, you volunteered because you either seeked adventure or you felt it was your duty to do so. I would suspect that if you are in the Services as an altenative to the dole queue, then you have little incentive to  turn out smart for a parade never mind volunteer for any where dodgey.

Medical treatment, get it whilst you can, I have , in the last 2 weeks been refused treatment because the particular Doc was at the limits of his budget, i was asked to come back in the new year (which is the next financial quarter) and i would be then treated, OK its nothing major, just some physio for a couple of dammaged muscles in my arm and kneck, but i was shocked to be turned away (never mind the damn wasted time in the waiting room) all the same.

Grandma came home absolutely shocked the other day.. she had seen her first ever Black German Policeman, I must admit, I have never seen one yet in the 13 years ive been here, ( seen plenty of cute female ones though), food for thought.

Pete L  

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 16:23:11 (ZULU)

JR, the hatred started long ago ( especialy with Rangers and Celtic) Rangers supporters bieng Protestant and Celtic bieng Catholic, I can't stand footbal/soccer my self, 22 queers chasing a bag of wind.(can't stand Formula 1 either) Rugby was always my game( thats a bit like your guys football, but without all the helmets and padding) dictionary definition:

Rugby: a game played by men with odd shaped balls.

ha.. My Dad has a contract with a ladies rugby team, he does all thier transport, he rekons the best bit is at the end when they swap shirts.Whilst we are on sport, it has been noticed that there was a severe lack of coverage on the Brit TV of any of the shooting events at the Commonwealth games, I wonder why?


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 16:31:55 (ZULU)

American professional football played without helments would not be survivable.  Without pads, line play would not be possible.  

Rugby looks about as rough as pick-up football.  Play Sunday and you wake up on Monday and crawl into the bathroom.  Wednesday you are moving around with tolerable aches and pains.  The next Sunday you do it again.

Ah, to be young again.  And real stupid.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 16:49:31 (ZULU)

**** Back from Afghanistan, Marine shoots would-be carjacker ****

This is a real "welocome home, Vet" news item. Sergeant Lowery comes home from A'stan only to be shot by a carjacker. Having been shot in the face, the Sergeant managed to return fire with a .45, scoring "numerous" hits and killing the 'would-be' carjacker.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 17:06:05 (ZULU)

Ref: 6.5x.284

I just got my shipment from Sinclair.  I've got all this brand new Lapua brass and 139 grain scenars. (It all gives me that funny feeling like I got climbing the rope in gym class.)  Anyway, where can I get a set of case dimensions for trimming and  what not.  I've got an idea of where to start with the powder and load already.

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas!!!


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 17:20:37 (ZULU)

CDC, you sound like you'd played rugby..we used to play on Wednesdays(traditional Brit Army sports afternoon) Play weds afternoon,freeze nuts off runnung round a frozen pitch,crawl to the bath, hobble or get carried to the rugby club bar,sink a few pints of beer, eat a curry and sing some dirty rugby songs, back to barracks to sleep it off, wakeup thursday, acheing from head to foot, oh shit a PT lesson,hobble over the assault course, twice round the barracks, breakfast and to work, Friday afternoon still stiff and acheing, CO's run, whoever couldn't beat the CO around the crosscountry course got to do guard duty at the weekend, (and he was a fit sod) phew, just beat him, off home for the weekend, instead of resting, spend weekend chasing women - fighting - and living it up at the disco, back to camp monday, oh shit a PT lesson, just about manage assault course without hobbleing, but oh my head!! Tuesday. Circuit training, ah feeling better by now. Wednesday, Platoon run, ah shit I'm playing rugby this afternoon as-well, repeat the above. and oh yeah.."Ah, to be young again.  And real stupid"   I quit the rugby after about 5 years,(and the boxing) i figured it was pointless getting beat up onlike that unless you where getting paid lots of money for it.(and it was interfearing with shooting) Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 17:44:19 (ZULU)

" the last 2 weeks been refused treatment because the particular Doc was at the limits of his budget, i was asked to come back in the new year (which is the next financial quarter) and i would be then treated".  

Pete L,

What a concept.  Doctor:"Sick, why you can't possibly be sick, we've already reached our quarterly budget".  Hope to hell Americans understand that this is what the dems are talking about when they start touting the virtues of the "single payer plan".   Just MHO.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 18:01:45 (ZULU)

Don, that's funny because they keep telling us here that they want to move closer to the American system,?? emergencies are covered no matter the budget, but routine stuff, (like physio, a hip replacement, a bypass whatever) will always be targeted towards the start of a budget quarter, its basicaly first come first served. Its still way better here than in the UK, atleast its only the next quarter i have to wait for, in the UK you go on a list, and the Gov't wait and hope you kick the bucket before you need the treatment, that way they get to keep what you paid in over the years (same goes with the pension, they want to raise the pension age to 70+ in the hope that you will die before they have to pay you back some of what you paid in over the years. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 18:22:25 (ZULU)

Kevin....didn't you say that George Gardner was chambering that stick????  If so, call him and ask for max case length and neck dimensions for that new Lapua.....

To all.....Merry Christmas


JRMoore <>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 18:27:21 (ZULU)

Old news, but al queda training manual can be found on the DOJ website

Finally got around to reading it thanks to holiday slack.  Thought it was interesting for a variety of reasons.

Finished the M1A stock and really like the finish.  I didn't want to heat the oil / wax mixture in the house so I used a heat gun outside and it worked fine.  Planning on shooting the rifle tommorow.

Tis the season to complete all those projects I've put off.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 18:39:53 (ZULU)


Aye, rugby rules.  Only game I understand..  Hit, and be hit.  the scrums are nasty, there's been dudes put in wheelchairs after a scrum gone wrong.  Good stuff.  didn't say I liked soccer, I just enjoy watchin' those insane fans..what's the term they use with the rangers/celtics fans, septarians, no that's not it, but it's an 's'.  and the chants, I've been on many a train ride home where the entire car was rocking with loud, obnoxious, drunk football fans spewing their team songs.  Love it..

Don't like F1 either..tired of 'Schumacher wins, shumacher wins, shumacher wins', it's a shite sport guided by who has the bucks...

It will be a shock to the system watching US sports, I haven't kept up atall..  plus, no Ladbrokes in SoDak, hah...can't bet on the donkeys!!!  now what the hell am I going to do with my Saturday mornings, ha..

Well dudes, I'm outta here for a while, will be stateside Monday for a well deserved long holiday break..  and I get to look forward to some 50 cals to rifle when I return, yeeehaww!!  just wish I could test fire 'em too..

Happy days are here again...


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 18:45:10 (ZULU)


Back from duty and have a little time before hitting the sack.

Great threads on politics...especially the take on Kalifornistan...

Problem is, now that the liberals have turned that state into a sewer they are all moving to Oregon. Solution? Declare the OR/CAL border a free fire zone for Oregonians with no license, bag limit, or caliber restrictions!

On the "new" Unertl 10X: Rocky Green and I are old compadres from the Corps. Our paths crossed last during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. He's a man to ride the river with and currently a Bird Colonel in the reserve component. As soon as I can round up the cash I'm going to have one of them thare "new" scopes. Then I can throw away my luppie and have a "real" USMC rifle!

Had a "jumper" today at work. After we 'cuffed him to the expanded metal safety wire...he looked kinda funny hangin' there JC style!

New lad...apparently realized how badly he had screwed his life up and it was Xmas...Poor Baby...:-(

All for now...going to PT and spend some quality time in the woods with big dog...

Kevin, think I may have a dimensional drawing of the 6.5 X .284 Norma...will e-mail it to you.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, 97326 - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 19:12:08 (ZULU)

Sad news:  The Paramedic that was in our helicopter that crashed last march is not going to make it to Christmas.  He is in a rehab hospital in Reno, spent first 6 months in ICU at the local trauma center, was getting better, moved to rehab, now has a yeast infection in his blood.  Dr's say there is nothing they can do and he has just day's left.  Chuck was a good friend, and mentor, and golf partner.  Going to see him in the morning, for the last time.

On hmo's and insurance:  Some of the other medics on here might know about this, but it is time the genereal public knows:  In the early 90's a member of HCFA (health care financing admin, the board that tells medicare and all other insurance co. what to pay)  Said:  "It has come to our attention that having paramedics in the field is not cost effective.  A patient that would have died before reaching the hospital is now brought into the hospital alive and running up huge bills.  This needs to change..."    Medicare has in the last year started phasing in a new fee schedule (a list of what the appropiate cost is for certian medical procedures) over the next 5 years.  This list cuts the income of most ambulance co's by about 40-50% by 2006.  A lot of these companies will no longer be able to employ paramedics and go back to running Emts (basic life support).

Your goverment at work.


Robert H <>
Ne , CA, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 19:19:23 (ZULU)

"Mystery" influenza on cruise ships, aircraft carriers, airliners, Marine camps, etc.  No break out into the general population.


I'd like to see all those strains isolated then DNA tested and compared.  You can call me paranoid if you want, but I wouldn't be shocked to find out that we're under a bio attack.

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 19:51:52 (ZULU)

Right fellers, off to the pub for some food and then to the woods to see about shooting my christmas dinner, fancy a change from Turkey this year.. when i fed the feeder today i could see where the pigs had been rooting about over the last 2 days, they had dug the hell out of the forest floor , all around the tree stand.. sure to get one tonight. wish me luck.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 20:02:19 (ZULU)

HMO and Insurance...Boy do I know what you're talking about!!! My other big complaint is Medicaid or as we refer to it...The Gold Card! This allows anyone that has it to show up in the ER with any little problem they think needs a doctor! Runny noses for a week, I just don't feel good, fussy baby - that's a favorite, my legs have hurt for the last 6 months, on and on and on! And of course most of these people show up between 10PM and 2AM! We even have them ask us for prescriptions for TYLENOL because they don't have the $$$ to pay for it...but go outside every 10 minutes for a cigarette!! People just aren't taught in school, like my generation was, how to take care of themselves. Class example is the 2 y.o. that was brought to the ER, at 2:30 in the morning, with a temp of 103.8 - that's dangerous folks - asked when the last time the child was given Tylenol or Motrin to control the fever the parents stated 'Oh we didn't give anything we wanted the doctor to see how high the fever was' Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

As you can see don't get me started on HMO's, PPO's, PCP's, Medicaid etc. I can give you example upon example of ingorance and abuse within the systems!!

Rant off

Not meaning to start HMO - Insurnace Country


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 20:06:42 (ZULU)


I saw the other day that the sickness was comming from the ships dumping their Sh*t tanks into the shipping lanes. And then the ship traveling behind then takes on water for desalinization (sp?)it is not purified and is used for cooking, showering, etc.

Don't know how true this is but possible.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 20:12:33 (ZULU)

CDC wrote;

"I wouldn't be shocked to find out that we're under a bio attack."

yep....that's my take on it and I'll throw in West Nile too.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 20:29:39 (ZULU)

Sarge, How about this one "I didn't have the $ for a cab, so I called the ambulance, by the way can they hang out and give me a ride home?"

Keep in mind, our ambulance is not supported by tax $ at all.

We also call it the "Gold Card" here. (medi-cal/medicaide) and they have no out of pocket cost.

Meanwhile my wife and I have 2 insurance policy's and still have over $2500 out of pocket for the birth of my son 7 months ago.  My wife is a RN in the local ER, the company that ownes the hospital (a non profit company)  is self insured and rased the rates on the health benefits, our cost is going up to about $800/month. At least at my company the insurance is still $160/month.  

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Cruise flu:  I have long thought it is some sort of bio attack, what better place than on a ship where the people have no other choice than to eat the food and drink/use the water?  

Took an updated class in Chico on mass casuality incidents and NBC, with a focus on small pox.  Very interesting.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 20:57:29 (ZULU)

Pete L wrote:

>>But financial gains or losses never seemed(for most) to be a factor in a decision to volunteer for a deployment, you volunteered because you either seeked adventure or you felt it was your duty to do so. I would

suspect that if you are in the Services as an altenative to the dole queue, then you have little incentive to  turn out smart for a parade never mind volunteer for any where dodgey<<

Pete, I was already volunteered for the overseas gig for many other (right) reasons.  Monday, I was told about the "new rules" regarding tax breaks and all that.  I was surprised, and slightly mystified...all that adventure AND a paycheck?  I usually think I ought to pay for the job I get to do...But I am not going to say no to the extra wife won't let me...These breaks and such are just political guilt for sending us into harms way.  Who am I to complain?  God knows that I did twenty plus years without making a ton of money...

The "mercenary" thing was a were supposed to laugh.

On the subject-

Remember that I am not talking about "combat arms" soldiers for these assignments that are going unfilled.  Our infantry kids are climbing walls to get theirs.  I'm due my functional area (aviation maintenance) and joint tour and Kuwait is the location.  We're talking REMFs for these jobs.  So the lack of volunteers is coming from the same group who get the bulk of the "skill training" and other bennies, like echelons above reality duty.  I wonder if the nay-sayers can look themselves in the mirror when they ignore the call to action.  For the record, I got suckered in to logistics by the term "maintenance test pilot."  It sounded pretty exciting and I raised my hand.  Oops.  MTPs are just flying wrenches...though a very very few get to go to Patuxent for the real deal...Now, I'm labelled as a part time bean counter.  How the Fu%@ did that happen????  Heheh.  With my luck, I'll be good at it :((

Bio attack:  By the time we realize it happened, it will have done some shit.  Strep A at Diego, cruise ships, and the mystery rashes at all them schools.  Hmmm.  Paranoid?  No, but only fools believe in coincidences.  

Joe M

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 21:26:29 (ZULU)

Aggressive medics can make an intended "taxi ride" into quite a different adventure for someone complaining of an illness.  Fake it, tie up a bus for BS and you deserve the consequences.

medicjim86 <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 21:35:43 (ZULU)

SUV Country ?

I got a green Jeep Liberty. Call it my SMJ (Soccer Mom Jeep).

Mildot and NRA Lifer stickers on the back glass. Texas plates that read 1 SHOT.

Nobody even notices that shit around my hood. Staus quo here in Port Arthur, Texas; where Redneck and Cajun cultures collide head on and where the sewer meets the sea ...

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 22:06:10 (ZULU)

On the cruise ships: another plus for an intentional infection- the occupants are often multinational. With a 1-2 week incubation, they would be home by onset.

My grandfather and I took a ride in a Caddy yesterday- a hard ride to take but he will rest easy now. Millard Filmore Greer 1910-2002, God Keep you Grandpa...

Hogs, hold them loved ones tight and all have a Merry Xmas.


Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 22:07:27 (ZULU)

I was speaking with Brad from about custom ordering an Eagle "sniper rifle cover and pad" and "padded scope cover" in desert camo or coyote brown to go with the Sniper Country rifle and he said if 20 people were interested he could have Eagle make a special run in the color we want, they usually only offer OD, Woodland and black. If you are interested contact Brad and lets get an order together. Thanks, Mike

Mike <>
- Friday, December 20, 2002, at 22:50:09 (ZULU)

Sold the M1A.  Who's got the best price on Rem SA M24 stocks?

RE SUV's, Soccer Mom's, and all the rest

"Earth First!  We'll stripmine the rest of the galaxy later."

Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 22:51:26 (ZULU)


Doing the AMO thing, huh? Good luck to ya. Just sit at your desk and sharpen your knife, maybe no-one will bother you.

Don, you're only a couple of hours north of me, after the gratuitous leave period I'm going on, we'll have to link up and do some shooting.

Take care

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Florida, - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 23:14:37 (ZULU)


Here's a link to a guy's website who helps military personnel pay for their flight home during the holidays.  Lots of people donate unused frequent flier miles so the troops can fly for free to visit their families.

or click on my name below.  Don't think it is available to officers, only us enlisted guys -- but pass it on to your men, might help someone out.  A friend in my platoon told me about it, already got $250 ticket through it.  FWIW...

Semper Fi

Brian <>
Camp Pendleton, CA, USA - Friday, December 20, 2002, at 23:46:44 (ZULU)

My NEW theme song for the holidays! Enjoy!

I love my life, Bolster heading for the barn and out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 00:06:26 (ZULU)



Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 00:29:57 (ZULU)


It would be my pleasure to shoot with you anytime.  But it's a little more than a couple of hours from Pcola to Huntsville, 'less you're in a phrogg.  Maybe you could make it on a weekend and we could go another hour up the road to AEDC and shoot with Fatboy at one of his 1K matches.  Been trying to make it all fall & winter and been something every weekend.  That's gotta stop.  Only prob is I'd seriously hate to get waxed by his better half.

Don Smith <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 02:34:38 (ZULU)

Has anybody shot the Remington 62 grain match .223 loads?  Any comments, I just got some at a discounted price.


Jerry <>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 03:03:23 (ZULU)

Brian, they build Jeep Liberties in Toledo. I have a 1990 GMC suburban I have been driving and building for a few years, and an Expedition. They both were NRA and H-D paraphinalia.

Mike I would be interesed in a case, how about a hard case too, anyone, anyone?

Merry CHRISTmas


Fred Hartman <>
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 03:38:55 (ZULU)

Jerry-  That 62gr match your talking it the IMI from Botach?  If it is, I just tried some in my AR service rifle (1/8 twist Wilson BBL)  I was pleased.  It shot with the 68gr match I normally use...for much less $$$.  My PSS and Savage 110FP didn't like it that much, not bad ...just not good groups.  I will be getting more for the AR considering how much it is and how well the rifle liked it.  

Cortisone-  Anybody else ever had a Gout attack?  I have and the two shots of Cortisone derivatives I got (each "cheak" thank you very much)hurt with a vengence but they were a God send. It's all relative.

Otherwise I'm just working my ass off and not getting enough sleep, like everybody else here.  I had a 30hr shift two days ago and I'm still feeling it.  What looked like a basic burglary arrest turned into ..dope, counterfeiting, guns, kidnapping, prostitution and of course murder. The worst thing in the whole deal was we had to get the Feds in on it and that really turned it into a cluster.  Damn the criminals and paperwork =)

Take care,

Joe S.    

Joe S. <>
Dago, Cali, US of A - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 04:02:40 (ZULU)

Well, this Holiday season is going to be a "memorable & unique" one for me. Just found out yesterday, that next week, as of Tuesday, I will be offically laid off. Yep, Christmas Eve. The good news is that I saw this coming & have already been looking, especially in states with a high "firearms friendly" quotient (no CCW or tactical matches in Ohio).

Truely, may all you & your families have a Merry Christmas & Happy New Years!!

danny mull <>
akron, ohio, - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 04:51:00 (ZULU)

Remington 62 grain "Match"- I only had one box, best I can recall it shot around 1 MOA but I don't remember how hard I was trying.  That brass with Rem match primers, 25.5 gr 748 & the 69 gr SMK does under 1/2 MOA.  The LOAL looks way short to me for best accuracy.

WR Moore <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 05:20:31 (ZULU)


      I'm glad that your stock finish came out well. Normally, I wait until the ol' lady goes off to work, then melt the mix on the kitchen stove. The odor only hangs around for a few hours, and smells pretty good to me, anyway! Hint - for cooking it out of doors get a can of Sterno, although I've used the heat gun also. It's a Black&Decker, and it will blister the paint right off your car if you're not careful!

Bio attack,

          Just a thought - what if the gov't is already aware of it and is keeping a very tight lid on it until they can isolate specific cases or locations and avoid a general panic among the populace? I know, I know - I've seen that movie somewhere too.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 05:36:20 (ZULU)

Joe S:  Yeah, to err is human but to really hose the goat, you need the involvement of a federal agency.

Alan:  This stuff is happening on aircraft carriers, airliners, cruise ships, a Marine camp, and who knows where else.  I'm not looking at the data, but I'm not stupid either.  Something smells funny.  Now let's say that you are Tom Ridge and the CDC (no relation) hands you proof.  First you contact Dubya's Chief of Staff.  

Next put yourself in Dubya's place.  Do you announce it?  

Sure.  In due time.  Let the high stakes poker players from Tejas mull it over some.  

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 05:58:15 (ZULU)

Danny Mull:

That really sucks.  What kind of job are you looking for?  maybe some one of us can help.

Don Smith <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 06:02:17 (ZULU)


    No offense taken. I`m pretty hard to offend with just words and don`t generally take stuff that way in print unless it`s brutally obvious. I didn`t realize the G3 was the forerunner to the other variants (like M-14 to M1A, M-16 to AR-15, etc.) and my friend was counting on my advice much like I count on the advice of those in the know on this and other forums. Just trying to shorten the learning curve. I have no allusions of owning full auto. Don`t need Gov. hoop headaches and press blisters. Although, I`ll bet it`s fun...Hmmmmm...

Nope, decided I like tiny groups a little better. At least for now.

BTW, I did only click once to post, honest.

Speed Racer <>
Dillsburg, PA, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 06:09:40 (ZULU)

Hey Gents,  I just got back from skiing in Idaho. Sun Valley was great, and it was my first try at skiing ever. Whish the slope wasn't so dang steep. My hip hurts a little but wow it was fun. I will get caught up on the roster in the next day or two.

Mayhem send me a phone number if you gunna be a round for a few more days..

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 06:34:44 (ZULU)

Tiny groups are fun,yeah, but a 200 round belt all to yourself through a m60 is good shit of the first order.

Kalifornicstan may be a lot of things,MikeM, but us Aussies got the worst politicians south of the ussr,Im not proud of it but shit happens and once it happens it multiplies on its own.

Went to the range today, 5oom, 40+ deg C target looked like it was at the bottom of a swimming pool,canvass mat burning my legs,I never had one of my own rifles that hot,only autos blister skin on contact with the barrel,but the poor old swede was smokin.Enjoy yer snow ya bumz.



Gavan Willis <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 06:57:09 (ZULU)

"We should be proud that our police are not armed."

Only in England!!! No wonder we checked out! :)))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 11:34:08 (ZULU)


Getting laid off sucks, but you usually come out a lot better with the change. Was laid off from three different jobs in '80, '89 and '90. My truck used to be able to drive me to the unemployment office without any help.

Suggestions FWIW:

Don't take the first job you find unless it is exactly what you want or you can't financially afford not to.

Give yourself a couple week break.

Sign up for unemployment. You've been paying for it, so you might as well take advantage of it.

There is no such thing as "job security". When you work a week and they pay you for a week, consider it even.

Get at least 3 headhunters working for you. Jobs in the newspaper are usually already promised and they list them per human resources policies.

Of course you probably already know what I just said so I'll shut up, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 12:53:01 (ZULU)

Hey Pete, hows it going?  What was the crack with Brownell's after, any news/excuses from them?

BBC have started repeating the series, 'World at War'.  First 2 parts were on this morning.  Fantastic documentary despite it's age.  Politicians should be forced to watch it at regular, frequent intervals.  Many parallels with some current political talking heads that refuse to believe war is sometimes necesary or that it can be limited.


Jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 13:22:16 (ZULU)

Pete, what's for x-mas on the stove ?

Val Sessink <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 16:29:43 (ZULU)

Sadaam's strategy is simple:  Just kill a bunch of our troops.  Beruit and Somalia have planted the notion that we can't sustain causalties.  The mythology in the Middle East is that, if they give us a bloody nose, we'll flee like chickens.

If that works, Islamic extremists and despots will gain fantastic prestige and we'll be looking at a much larger war against many more enemies armed with WMDs.  They'll keep coming and they won't be satisfied until we are brought low.

The easy way out of this is to do whatever is necessary to put Sadaam's head on a pike.  There's no other way.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 16:29:47 (ZULU)


I need to pic your brain about The Allison C and F series turbines. Drop me an email, please.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 17:04:56 (ZULU)

I don't want to get the pistol wars started again but this is interesting.  The Baretta ain't cutting it in combat, and some of our guys are going the back to the tried and true.

This deal about The Honorable Senator Patty (mom in tennis shoes) Murray praising Osama bin Laden's social policy presents a nice contrast to Senator Lott's bone-head remarks.  If you are going to say something stupid, make sure you're a Democrat.  Then you can say something absolutely outrageously stupid.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 18:52:26 (ZULU)

Well, the grunts are all hot and bothered to go.  It's always that way.  Life for a grunt always sucks, but it sucks less when you get to kill people and you don't have to deal with the 1st Sgt& Sgt Maj doing daily barracks inspections and other petty shit.  

Pogues are pogues.  They have been tought from birth to be docile little pussies, by soccer Moms and other kinder, gentler idiots.  Which, combined with no physical play, overdoses of sugar and youthful energy, usually turns them into little undisciplined monsters.  Instead of guys like Peter L and his rugby hooligans(dude, you are sick;)  you have little Billy who sits and plays PSII for six hours a day, then goes out and vandalises the local school.  That's great for breaking down any and all moral inhibitions about killing, but it does nothing to develop team work, physical strength and endurance and personal discipline.  All of which are needed to field a useful military unit.  Don't get me wrong, we have some good guys, and we're going to do some good work in the near future, but we need to take steps to ensure that we have a good base of hard, cold, organized, steely eyed killers for the long term.  You sell these kids on a good soft job and good pay and all that corporate crap, and then wonder why they puss out when it comes crunch time?  Shit.  Tell them life is gonna suck, that people are all gonna try and kill you, and that that'll you'll get the chance to kill them, and see what you get.  You'll get all these little hard asses who are looking for the tough things to prove themselves.  Ain't no other choices in the US to do the hardcore shit.  SOCOM hasn't had any shortage of people looking to join, neither has the USMC, even though we ain't got the big bucks.

If this bio problem is tango related, GW isn't going to tell anyone until he knows who did it.  Then, while feelings of outrage are high, we'll have the drive to do the job right.  And the mid-day Sun will rise over the cities of those responsible, while the sheep of America have their 10 minute attention spans focused on the job at hand.  He has learned from the immediate post Sep 11 aftermath.  Strike when the iron is hot and use your largest hammer.  S/F...Ken M      

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 18:57:35 (ZULU)

International Sniper Competition

US Army Wins

SSG Justin Shaffer and Sgt Mike ?  From FT Richardson Take TOP Team, TOP Sniper and TOP Spotter.   Shotting a G.A. Precision AR-10 and an Issue M-24.

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
NKC, MO, USA - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 19:28:08 (ZULU)


Just a number of things quickly.

I have posted two new reviews (one technical review and one book review), and hope to get another technical one done before I go to bed - depends on how well Sarge wrote :-)  Then tomorrow after church we're leaving for a well-deserved rest, and will be back next week Sunday.  So, please don't break anything.  If the Roster needs archiving - email Sarge.

I probably will not have time to come on here again as it is almost 22H00 already, so here is wishing you all a merry CHRISTmas and a happy new year, and, for every one of you, may the new year be better than the best of the past.

Take care all, and if you travel, please travel safely.


Marius <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 19:40:46 (ZULU)

Way to go George!!!!!

We're off for a week at the coast with the in laws for CHRISTmas.Happy silly season to y'all,if you cant be good,be careful.



Gavan Willis <>
- Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 20:08:49 (ZULU)

Why do I continue to pay $3 to park and $6 to go to these rotten ass, over priced, same ole stuff, rusting in the boxes, moth eaten surplus gun shows around here? I know better but something keeps telling my pea brain that ONE OF THESE DAYS BEFORE I DIE, I will find something worth buying. I would really like to go to a quality gun show, in another state, that these yahoos don't set up tables at. I can almost sit here an rattle off everything that was there cause it was the same shit that was there last year and the year before that, ad infinitum!!!!!!!!

On another subject.....

This morning I bought an itty bitty bottle of Montana Supreme. Not five minutes later I ran into one of the best bench resters in the country (who happens to live near me) and we were discussing cleaning. He told me not to use the stuff on stainless or chrome moly. Somebody is telling a falsehood about this stuff. I know Lito, Hoppes only but hell, a girl has to try different stuff. Is there any freaking copper remover on the market that won't mess up a barrel? Amonia and phosphoric acid seem to the be culprits but with factory barrels, Hoppes wears my arms out trying to get the copper out.

New short magnums......

I had an orgasm when I saw the adds for the 223 and 243 short magnums. I WANT an AR built for bofem. The special forces dudes probably already have them in the pipeline. Man o man, talk about service and match rifle 600 yard scores going up. I understand that there is a guy down around FayetteNam that is currently working on the mods to make em woik.

Back to the grease, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 21:44:51 (ZULU)


We had a show here this weekend too.  Same old shit,, but I found a nice older Winch LA chambered in 243win to use as the next 6.5x284 donor.  Blueing on the action was almost perfect and the receiver was factory tapped for a side base.  Only thing I don't like is the ugly shroud,, but it'll do for what I need it for.  I get to try my hand at bedding with this puppy.  Should be fun ;))

BUT,, I whole heartidly agree and think the Klinton era ruined the good shows.

If I don't get back on before Christmans,, hope you all have a safe and happy Holiday,, which ever one you celebrate.


Chris <>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 22:54:59 (ZULU)

Well, what a god awfull night it was in the woods, chucked it down all night, i didn't see didley squat. bugger, looks like it'll be turkey again this year.

Joe M, wasn't a dig buddy, i never doubted your reasons to volunteer, I was realy just carrying on the conversation i had with the combat engineer at the hunt the other day. Like Ken M says, we need to ensure that we have a good base from where to draw our warriors(i figure thats what he meant). But in this day and age of pacifism and laziness, i fear that the hard core pool of tough and honourable youngsters that we will need to fill the ranks of our military in the future is a dwindling comodity but in this day and age , is it any wonder. With ref to the Govt's guilty concience for sending people into harms way, the UK gov't think nothing of that, all this extra UN pay that they cash in on is never passed on to the Soldier on the ground, remember the handout the Saudi's came up with at the end of Gulf 1 that was a thankyou? the Govt pocketed that too, "Our troops are not Mercenaries, they get a wage for what they do, but thanks we can put the cash into the Deep Pockets Politicians Fund and the PM can have a new Bentley".

Now having served my time, and volunteered for every shit detail that would get me out of the way of the Sgt Majors monday morning inspection and camp guard duty, having got rid of all that testostorone and adrenalin, i can seriously say that, ( in the UK) any one who volunteers to go into harms way, do the governments dirty work, and lose money whilst doing it, must be completely nuts. In the days that i served my country I was partiotic and proud to be British and very proud to go anywhere i was sent and do anything i was required to do, now a few years later, having seen one politician after another try to take away the freedoms I enjoy, destroy all i served for and ruin the very soul of the Country i believed in. I can only say that I am embarased to be British, Embarased to be European, no way would i stick my kneck out for the Gov't of Tony Blair, even if i happened to believe that what was about to be done needed doing( Getting the Iraq issue sorted) For me to be in the frame of mind to be able to say i was proud enough to want to serve again, a hell of a lot would need to change at home. I am glad that there are still young men and women who are still partiotic enough.I salute any one who volunteers to go and serve, be they Combat arms or Echelon, I hope that after the fact they all recieve the support they deserve and have a better experience with Veterans Administration than I can say i have had, Grab all the financial incentive you can before some politician spends it on using the Airforce to transport him to see his mistress, or on transporting the City Governers on an all expenses paid trip to China to visit 20 quarries to select stone to pave the city centre, as if there where no quarries local. ( just a couple of local scandals here at the mo'). aw hell i'm getting into my political rant mode again.better shut up.

On another point, the young lady i am working with right now was followed home( dark streets no one around) on her bicycle after we left work last night, by some dirty pervert, he stopped her and suggested all sorts of sexualy deviated things to her, she pushed past and cycled away, making an attempt to lose him, (he was also on a bike) just as she thought she had lost him, he reapeared from a parallel side street and made further suggestions, he didn't actualy harm or touch her, but it shook her up some. "I just no longer feel free and indipendant and it makes me so angry" is what she said, I will give her a couple of pepper spray cans, (i'd rather lend her my pistol), Her husband will now acompany her to and from work for a while.

John, I read that thing on the Brit cops bieng armed, the reason that Bobby's can walk the streets un armed is because they know damn well where not to venture unarmed and avoid these places like the plague, mean while criminals have a free run in the same areas. When comparing the crime figures here in Europe to the USA, the tendency is to just compare the number of incidents, and not number of incidents per head of population, when we compare it per head of population then it paints a very very different story, But the politicians and Association or Chief Police oifficers are more worried about Cops  shooting each other or inocent bystanders and the cost of the firearms training than they are about the rocketing crime figures. The Brit Cops are powerless to defend the general public against criminals, it is illegal to defend your self against criminals, all you can do is hope that your turn never comes.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, December 21, 2002, at 23:27:40 (ZULU)

 At the risk of sounding like one who watches too many movies, I couldn't help but notice the relevance of Tolkiens "The Two Towers" to today's political debate between those who would seek to accomodate Evil and those who would meet it head on.....There are lessons to be drawn from this movie, fantasy that it is, notwithstanding.

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 00:11:53 (ZULU)

Pete, have you sent me an email?  Only I've got a message stuck.  If you have, try sending it again.



Jon Beardsley <>
- Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 00:15:52 (ZULU)

I've managed to recover the message.  Another piece of junk about money making or some such shit.  Its nice being able to email folk from the DR privately, but it is a pain in the arse having people mining the site for addresses to pedal their scams, sell rubbish or just send viruses. If YOU are reading this LEAVE US ALONE, WE DON'T WANT YOUR DVD COPIERS, MONEY MAKING SCHEMES OR YOUR FILTHY VIRUSES.  

Ah, just watch the crap roll in now!


Jon Beardsley <>
- Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 00:23:59 (ZULU)

Jon, yep i sent you a mail, no airgun yet eh? post is reeeeeeal slow.. what you doing up at this time of day.. oh I know, counting them sheep kept you awake eh.. ha ha ha.. sorry mate, had to get that anti Welsh racist joke in.. how was the Com'party? brownells stuff still not here.... arrggg.. annoying. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 00:36:18 (ZULU)

CDC, the link said that our troops feel that the 9MM FMJ is ineffective. My first reaction is "WELL DUH!". Unfortunately, the realistic effectiveness difference between traditionally shaped FMJ rounds of any normal full powered pistol caliber is very low. Still, it's my opinion, if they THINK round XYZ is better, give it to them, they should have it. Unless that choice is particularly silly, like a sub-caliber miniature rifle round, that upon initial deployment gets thousands of our men KIA. My first approximation answer goes something like this: 200 to 230 grain FMJ, in the 900 to 1000 fps range, but in the truncated cone configuration. Should make for a harder chambering, but better on the terminal effects page. On the other half, although the article said there were no operational failures, the reported breakages aren't at all acceptable. I'm picturing something not as large as the SOCCOM pistol, for issue across the board, lightweight, rugged, and with a straighter magazine-to-chamber aspect than normal. Possibly something best described as Austrian in appearance on 5 sides, with the hole in the muzzle making the appearance of the sixth side very American. I sure hope this doesn't open up the same can of worms, initially, I just wanted to make a bullet selection suggestion.

BOLT - INCOMING e-mail, no VD, I got a prophylactic on the screen (new)

Jaeger <>
- Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 01:27:55 (ZULU)

Bolt, just saw your msg to Danny Mull, I tried to find his originating msg in this forum, no joy.  You gave good advice Sir.  I'm locked in the throes of unemployment in the Aviation industry FWIW, have been laid-off by #3 acft mfgr in Oct 2001, then a mom & pop acft repair station in July 2002, and am living the dream.  I've a 9yr aviation background in Material Support (yeah, a pogue I guess), then decided to get an Airframe & Powerplant License in Jan 2001...I went to school for 20 months at community college here, obtained a 4.0gpa thru the entire program with 3 straight semesters of perfect attendance (while working full-time thru 17 of 20 of the months there), finished up in Aug 2002, and...have been unemployed since Aug 2002.  

Biggest lesson learned so far:  Be open to finding a new position with skills RELATED to your previous job positions.  Aviation is not worth a flying Fxxk right now for a "green" A&P.  That's why I took a Civil Service exam this last Thursday for a Water Treatment Plant Operator Trainee for a local city. 104 applicants for 1 position!!!  Talk about looking outta a barrel!!  I'll see how it goes.  

Looks like, should this fail, that the Rodgers's are moving to Western NC.  Would certainly be much more of a proper atmosphere than is So. Fla.!!!

Danny, I didn't find your post regarding your specific situation.  But, I will say, DON'T LET THE BASTIDS KEEP YOU DOWN!!!  Keep an open mind, and re-read the Boltster's post.  Feel free to e-mail me should you like.

Best of luck, Frank

FNR <>
PemPines, FL, USofA for now - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 01:37:11 (ZULU)

Gent's , I would like to wish you all a Great Christmas !!, I'm off now for a few days, got a couple of hunts lined up over the festive season and suppose i'll be stuffed full of turkey and German beer, it could be worse. looking forward to the Gun Shop Christmas booze up, thats always a good start off to Christmas and spending a few days at home with the family. Take care all of you.. Best Regards.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 01:46:34 (ZULU)


See a few new names....mostly the OLD timers......;)

Just dropped by to wish you all a Merry Christmas....

And, for those of you that may be going to see Sadman.....keep it in one piece, and come back safe, and victorious.

With HIS arse on a platter.

Best wishes to you all..........

Two Shoes

Dos Zapatos

Two Shoes <>
- Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 04:59:45 (ZULU)


     After I read your WSSM post a question immediately came to mind. Why would one want a semi-auto barrel burner? Don't get me wrong, I have an M4, five AR-15's, an NM M1A, and an M25 clone, so I've got nothing at all against semi's. The .223 burns more powder than the Swift -  had three Swifts, still have one - and the .243 has more capacity than the .243Win. which we all know to be a barrel burner. In fact, I'd like to check out the .243WSSM, with the 107SMK it ought to be hell on wheels, but in a BOLT GUN!

    The way I see it, the AR-10 is a fine piece of hardware, but it's still a semi and to me that means rapid fire. Maybe not all of the time, but a quick-firing rifle it is, and that equates to a barrel life possibly under 1,000rds. So unless you're getting freebees from JR or Mike Rock, what would be your purpose in getting an AR-10/WSSM combination. I certainly don't mean this as a dig, just like to know if I'm missing something!

Oh, and here's a quiz for the night, and anybody can play -

   Q)What's the difference between vanilla and French vanilla?



Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 05:23:33 (ZULU)

"Q)What's the difference between vanilla and French vanilla?"

"French" vanilla kisses better. ;o  Seriously, when it comes to ice cream, French vanilla is vanilla with added egg yolks.

Went bow hunting today, (Sat.) while setting in my blind waiting for Mr. Big whitetail, I heard footsteps in the snow, I got ready just in case, but what showed up at 25 yards was the biggest damn bison bull that I've ever seen. For the next 20 minutes a steady stream went by in single file, I stopped counting at 100 and just enjoyed the sight. This is a privately owned semi-wild herd, which means that they are left to fend for themselves in an area that is five miles square.

Work for a couple of days, then I am off for 6 days over Christmas so I wanted to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And a special one to John, ( who was kind enough to sell me one of his riffle raffle tickets when I missed the last raffle. Thanks again John!

Take care and have a good holiday!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 07:40:35 (ZULU)


I started to buy a 28' Grady White boat with twin 200 Mercs several years ago (before I got laid off from a damn good paying job at RJ Reynolds). My fishing buddy thought I was crazy cause the motors burned so much gas. I told him that if I can afford to buy the boat, I can afford the gas. Same as with a custom gun. If I could ever afford to buy a custom gun, I'll be able to afford a couple barrel changes. Hell, no more time than I get to shoot now, the barrel would probably last 10 years.

On the subject of military surplus...

Can anyone confirm that our brilliant government is planning on destroying all surplus stuff, rather that putting it up for auction? Sounds like sumpin they would do, but the rumor is going around and I need confirmation. This rumor may be causing the rise in surplus pricing. Why the hell anyone would want to pay in excess of $150 for a set of Marpat camo's is beyond me. German flectarns are way cheaper and dang similar.

On the 2004 assault rifle bill sunsetting.....

Any guesses on whether Dubya will let it sunset or bring it back up for vote. Right now, mag prices are still rising and could still be a good investment if the bill is extended.


Is there such thing as a used 6.5x284 for sale??????

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 14:33:12 (ZULU)

Dos Zap,

Good to see you checking in mang,, you should visit more often.

Speaking of visiting,,, 'Lito, 'Yote Bait, Master Rick, Bravo (sometime soon mang), you can't stay in the hide forever...


If you try and buy a used fagmag make damn sure you have a barrel life log, or deduct for the barrel and fitting accordingly.  I would never expect to get back what I had into one of these match rifles, so you should be able to get into one at a decent price.  But,, if you just want a 6.5x284,, any one of your 308 bolt faced actions will work mang.  Just having it rebarreled and single feed ;)) That way you can go back and forth as you like.


Alright,, got the Winchester action now,, so the pre-threaded AI barrels are beginning to look attractive,, again.  Now,, these are fluted so I'm a bit comcerned about getting the chamber too close to the flutes.  As stated before,, the trunion on the Winchester is about 1", and I'll have to lop 1" off the pre-threaded area because the barrel doesn't thread as far into the Winchester action.  Now,, the flutes, right now, start at 3.250" from the breech.  If I cut off 1", that would leave me 2.250" from the breech if everything headspaces out right and extra doesn't have to be cut.  The 6.5x284 case gets trimmed to 2.165", which would put the throat at about 2.4" or something like that.  So,, is it going to be dangerous to have the lead end of the chamber at or under the flutes?  I wouldn't be so adament about these tubes, but a fluted 30" Border tube for $300 is hard to pass up.  

SO,, will these tubes workie safely or do I need to let this go and order one I KNOW will work form the get go??


Chris <>
Well Sheeeit, 2002 season is over,,, Good new is, 2003 dates will be in next week. Look for a submission to the "Places to Shoot" on this most excellent of web sites., - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 14:33:36 (ZULU)


Have you measured the OD of the barrel, the depth of the flutes and used the chamber dimensions to calculate how much barrel meat there would be (chamber to bottom of flute).  If you're lucky you might find that you have about as much as a standard sporter barrel.

Just a thought!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 15:44:23 (ZULU)


As written in the post:

"Diameter at breach is 1.125". Diameter at muzzle is .750", ready for a front sight base.  6 flutes, 25" long x .250" wide, taper "shovel" ends.  Currently threaded for AI receivers. 30" OAL. (finished)"

I don't have the depth of the flutes,, but I'm attaching a link to pics (click on my name).  Maybe I sould drop a note to Lee at Border and see what he has to say about the flute depth huh?


Chris <>
Well Sheeeit, 2002 season is over,,, Good new is, 2003 dates will be in next week. Look for a submission to the "Places to Shoot" on this most excellent of web sites., - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 16:10:10 (ZULU)


Call George Gardner at GA Precision, He has a number of these barrels and can answer your question with facts. I seem to recall that another person had the same question a couple of months ago. Give him a call, he will know.

Michael <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 16:27:06 (ZULU)


Did you send me an email with attatchment?



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 17:28:04 (ZULU)


Mr. Sinister.  I got some good leads on CG63's (Swede target rifles) in much betterer shape than Sarco's (from what I heard).  I don't know if you got my emails or not.  If not, drop me a line and I'll git' 'im to ya. I realize you might be kinda "busy" right now though.



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 17:33:05 (ZULU)

Robert Opp,

           Egg yolks, huh? That's what the French say, don't they?

  The real difference between vanilla and French vanilla is.........



Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 18:04:15 (ZULU)

Rich, negative on the email.

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 18:26:45 (ZULU) gun shows

  You should try the OGCA shows in Ohio held every two months..Some of the same old crap, but generally some pretty good stuff as well..Prices seem high on lots of stuff but I have made some incredible buys either right at opening on Sat. or right towards the end of the how on Sunday.."You don't really want to have to take that home do you?"..

 Last year during the SHOT show the Beinfeld gun show was going on at the Riviera in Vegas..Now that's a gun show, with modern and antique sections..Not cheap, but very impressive!  I had to leave the modern{sporting} arms show before I did something really stupid!!Got out of there with two Kimber mags for my 82 and counted myself lucky to have found them and the price wasn't that bad.. Man, you could spend some $s in that place though!!!!!!!!!

outa here

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 19:02:07 (ZULU)

Bolt & Rich S.

I also got one of the "special" (virus infected) emails with Bolt's name as the sender. It is obvious that our email addresses are scooped up off of this site. I am very pleased that I have Norton anti-virus!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 19:16:58 (ZULU)

Scope Base Issue:

It's been a while but I remember someone mentioning that they had trouble getting a scope down to zero at 100 yards.  As I recall this was with a standard base and 1" scope.

I was just flipping through "The Military and Police Sniper" and ran across information about Remington changing the height of the rear bridge in 1974.  Apparently the rear bridge (where the rear base bolts down) used to be .117" below the front bridge on Pre 1974 guns but was changed to .100" on Post 1974 guns.

What occurred to me was that if the rifle in question was Pre 1974 and the scope base was a Post 1974 then possibly the muzzle high angle transferred to the scope might have been the problem.

If this rings a bell for anyone and helps then fine, if not it's just more info cached away till needed.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 20:46:07 (ZULU)

Bolt, you get that e-mail?

So, Mike Rock has a PhD. This I did not know. Congrats Mike, hope yours wasn't pure grad school hell.

See, I can surf ebay too LOL

Jaeger <>
- Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 23:13:56 (ZULU)

I'm going to incorporate a walk-in vault in the basement of my new home. Anyone with plans or experience in that area that would like to share that information would be warmly welcomed and greatly appreciated. I would probably pay to send 'litos' sister to clean your fridge or maybe.... never mind. :))) Seriously, I do need some assistance. Email or post. Approx. 12'x12'in size with poured, reinforced concrete walls.

Thanx, John

edit to add: Merry CHRISTmas to all and enjoy a safe holiday season. Will be raising a toast to Pete L., all other rosterfarians and all our dedicated service men and women at 23:59Z on New Years eve.

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, December 22, 2002, at 23:42:11 (ZULU)


Will the vault room be built on an outside basement wall, or four walls in the center of the basement? If on an outside wall, is that wall below grade? Is the basement air conditioned?

Are you looking for fireproofing and theft protection or just theft protection? For fireprotection, you will need a fire rated lid on it so to speak. Remember that if you don't have a rated top/lid, etc. on the vault, whatever burns above it can fall through the lid!

You will need to Thoroseal, or the sealant of your choice, the inside surface of the walls to prevent moisture intrusion. You will also need to install a dehumidifier, preferably that can drain outside on it's on, hence the above question on room location.

Wait at least 60 days before you seal the concrete, depending of course in what climate you live. Try to find a moisture tester to check the concrete before you seal.

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 00:44:21 (ZULU)


It will be in a corner of the basement to utilize 2 poured walls. Steel rafters, I forget what they're called, with sheet metal on top of them and 4" concrete for the ceiling. Separate air and electrical supplies from the house with B/U comm. Interior will be environmentaly controlled with humidity as a prime consideration. :))

I wonder how thick the ceiling has to be for 1500 or so degrees for 30 minutes? I'm sure somebody on here knows. Thanks for the suggestion about the ceiling, I hadn't thought about the load factor.

By the way, the rods work flawlessly. 15# bass will not have a chance. I'm a happy camper.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 02:00:54 (ZULU)


Call the manufacturer of the vault door that you intend to purchase and let them tell you the required concrete thickness for the walls and the ceiling that will match their door rating. Also, tell them to send you the manufacturers installation instructions BEFORE they pour the interior walls. You need the exact rough in measurements. It would even be preferable to have the door at the residence before it is poured.

A 4" metal deck with poured in place, wire reinforced concrete should withstand whatever you get except a tornado. Make sure that all joints and/or keyways are caulked. If you install HVAC in the room, make sure they install fire dampers in the ductwork. Use 3M or equal fire caulk at all penetrations.

Also make dang sure that they properly waterproof the basement walls AND install a french drain system!!!!!!!!!

Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 02:18:02 (ZULU)

In Basement Vault - As some of you know I am a Building Contractor. Over the years I have put a  number of "Room Safes" in homes for customers.  It is really not complcated at all. Here is a quick run down.

What I am going to describe costs about $6000 to build if out side walls are used, and at least double that if you put it in the center where all 4 walls are non-exterior walls.  I use two chambers in a 12 x12 space.  An outer 8 x12 chamber with a 4 hour rated Steel door that is for secure storage/ storm shelter.  The Inner 4 x 12 is the actual vault. I use Liberty doors with a non-electronic lock poured right into the concrete wall.  I line both areas with either sheet rock or cedar walls and ceiling, with a raised wood floor.  The structural ceiling is steel and reinforced concrete to withstand a 500 psf of loading, which means the house can fall in on it and stay intact.  I use a dehumidifier permanantly mounted in both areas and drain it to the basement floor drain.  Lights are on a seperate circuit and done to comercial fire code.  In some I have put some sophisticated alarms, as well as Halon and co2 fire supression systems.  I use sprinklers in most of the houses I build to really raise the fire protection level. This design will stop 99% of the criminals, fire, and weather.  IT will keep you toys dry and secure.

 I will behappy to share more specific info privatelyfor those interested parties.  Things can be greatly simplified depending on your budget.  If anyone needs assistance drop me a line.  If their is anough interest I would be willing to do a write up for the Site.

Merry Christmas

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 02:27:37 (ZULU)

cruise ships;

      I worked in a shipyard for a while before I got into water treatment. There were a few cruise ships that came in. None of them had de-sal(desalinazation) units on board. Some of the larger, newer ships do have them. Most ships have large potable water storage tanks.

      All of the cruise ships that we worked on were absolutely filthy. They don't let passengers go below the upper few decks, which look like a palace. On the lower decks, all the daily workings of the ship takes place. The crew quarters are down there, the crew and guest galleys (kitchen), the utility deck, storage area, and dumpsters. On one ship the utility deck, storage area, garbage dumpsters and galley was connected and the cooks were barefooted and walking in garbage. There were no passengers on board while it was in the shipyard, but you can imagine they don't act any different at sea with passengers on board. Remember, the passengers never see this part of the ship.

      Here's a BIG HINT. On the cruise ads on TV, look for the country of registry. It is usually in really small letters at the bottom of the TV screen. That is the country it is licensed to operate from. They will usually be Liberia and a Carribean country. The reason for registering the ship in Liberia, etc. is that the ship company doesn't have to meet US health, safety, labor, and enviromental standards. Therefor, the crew is a bunch of Africans and Islanders that are not vaccinated, don't abide by sanatary food handling rules, etc.

       It's no wonder people get sick on these ships. I'm not saying ALL ships are like that, but the ones I worked on were.

               LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 04:31:56 (ZULU)

Jody, YECH!!!!!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 06:17:17 (ZULU)

I have made contact with Remington, they are sending me a spec sheet for all the changes made to the Rem 700 in its life time.

I will pass this information along ASAP.


We did it this year! the Americans one!

George and I just returned from the competition at Ft. Benning.

The kicker is that the top shooter was a spotter and won with an Autoloader! A custom AR-10 from GA precision. It beat all the high speed bolt guns.

The Army sniper associations web page should be up by the time you read this.

Check it out.

Badger six out

Marty <>
- Monday, December 23, 2002, at 06:51:52 (ZULU)

George:  WAY TO GO!

Marty: It was the technology right?

You guys a friggin dream team....!!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 07:27:20 (ZULU)


I thought that shoot was open to only active military snipers.  Did George and yourself compete or was there a trade show/display area?

Speaking of all those high speed bolt guns,,, how many were wearing metal from yer shop ;))  


Congradulations,, another outstanding piece of equipment.  And if I'm not mistaken,, youse got a new guy comin' in in 9 days. Maybe you could take a day off now ;))


Chris <>
Well Sheeeit, 2002 season is over,,, Good new is, 2003 dates will be in next week. Look for a submission to the "Places to Shoot" on this most excellent of web sites., - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 12:19:16 (ZULU)

Rich S.,

Sent you an email, no attachments.

Don K.

Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 13:21:51 (ZULU)

What's up with the Canadians? In all the pics on the web site they all looked like they were in the witness protection program. :))

Don't want anybody to recognize 'em at the mall I guess.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 13:40:55 (ZULU)

Spam and & E-mail suggestion:

When displaying our e-mails on this site, how about adding an anti-spam phrase? This is common on the internet, these days.

Such as : become

The "-SC" would obviously send the spam to an invalid address.

Hank <>
- Monday, December 23, 2002, at 15:19:42 (ZULU)

"Why do I continue to pay $3 to park and $6 to go to these rotten ass, over priced, same ole stuff, rusting in the boxes, moth eaten surplus gun shows around here?"

'Cause here in denver we can get great deals on reloading supplies!  Powder at $14/lb or $102/8 lb.  Primers at $13/lot.  Speer Gold Dots at $80/1000. If it weren't for that and my addiction to beanie-babies, I wouldn't go at all.

Hank <>
- Monday, December 23, 2002, at 15:32:56 (ZULU)

"The Two Towers" had a spectacular midevial battle scene.  It's worth watching for that alone.  It's messages of determination, persistance and courage in the face of evil are valid and timely.  Great war movie and great movie.

Ranger Rick, Sinister Dave and Pablo:  When you guys don't post, this place just fizzles out.

CDC' <>
- Monday, December 23, 2002, at 15:53:55 (ZULU)

Vaults in basements vs fire.

Basements tend to end up as swimming pools during house fires... this represents a much greater risk than a sustained, super-hot fire in the basement.  I have my guns in the basement and consider them well protected from fire with a layer of 5/8" gypsum board inside my safe walls.

Jim (firefighter/medic - 17 years experience)

medicjim <>
- Monday, December 23, 2002, at 16:20:13 (ZULU)

Hi Guys..

 Where is everybody by the way??  If I don't get a chance tomorrow I just wanted to wish you all a very MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

 I spent all weekend cleaning and reorganizind my loading room. After that I started triming brass and neck tuning some 260 Lapua brass.

Pat <>
- Monday, December 23, 2002, at 17:27:38 (ZULU)

Sniper Comp

The comp is only open to Military. George and I went to set up as vendors.

There was some hardware from badger, not enough, I’m still working on it.

The Canadian guys are real skiddish since the Afgan sniping report, their military will not allow pics of the snipers and a couple of guys were almost courts martialed over it.

I also found out that the 2000+ shot with the .50 in A’stan was made with a Mc Bros .50 sporting Badger rings hoo-ah. No Remorse!

Marty out.

Marty <>
- Monday, December 23, 2002, at 17:50:09 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas to all youse guys.  Just got back from the yearly Christmas/birthday party up in Ft. Worth.  Dear God, never again.  I found out that "one shot, one kill" applies not only to riflecraft.  Never, ever EVER, let a younger, distant relative that has a chubby for the cops hand you a shot of something while you're distracted.  And never, under any circumstances, drink with someone named Lucretia.  I've not had this bad a hangover since Navy days.  There's a point where you realize that you are old enough to drink anything you want to, and old enough that you can't drink everything you want to.  I prefer to call it "maturity".....

Anybody else hear that news story outta Idaho?  I thought I heard something about a Sasquatch starting an avalanche at some ski resort.  I know Dirty Steve was out there, hope he didn't get hurt.

Well, if'n my head explodes, y'all have a merry Christmas, and be safe!  I'll be thinking of you, all snug in yer beds, with visions of 200 x 20 dancing in yer heads while I'm patrolling the mean streets.  Drive carefully, I don't want to hear of any gaping holes in the DR next year.  God Bless all of you and your families this season, and next.  

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 18:10:50 (ZULU)


Am working on several projects and have a day off...

Wanted to wish you all the very best of Christmas's and a Happy New Year

Has anyone been able to access the Norma web site in english? My tries yesterday only found the Swedish language site and it looks like it has been "slimmed down" considerably. What gives? They did have a copy of the Norma 6.5 X .284 dimensional drawing, but it appears to be gone. Luckily, I have hard copies.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 18:17:42 (ZULU)

Happy Holidays Hogs,

Just want to wish the best to all and extra rations to all those forward deployed or ready to step into harms way. You know what to do, God grant the leaders the wisdom to unleash the dogs.

On another note, I'm an active duty Navy Chief shifting from the left to the right coast un hurry up orders and I need some info on civilian gun ranges/armories that can store personnel weapons in the Norfolk Va beach area. I'll be arriving in the ao on the 27th of Dec. till mid Feb.. Any info you all have would be greatly appreciated.

I already checked the fleet bases and it's a no go on the east coast to store privately owned weapons in Navy armories. I'm still waiting to hear back from a frog chief, but me thinks he might be tip toeing thru the dunes.

Thanks in advance for any help you might have.

P.S. Litosan hurry up and fix that puter of yours. The A-191 is making it's way and we need to touch base.

Chief out

Chief <>
TAD, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 18:45:41 (ZULU)


I went to the Norma site and it came up in Swedish, But I clicked on the UnionJack and it then came up in English.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 18:47:41 (ZULU)

Don, Bolt, Frank -

Thanks for the encouragement & advice. I saw this coming so I have already started my search, namely via, it just landed about 3 weeks sooner than expected. Ain't nuntin' in the local paper. Had some less than savory experiences w/ a couple headhunters 6 yrs ago, but they are a necesary evil (I'll not be nearly as nieve this time around). I'm an electrical engineer (BSEE) in the controls/automation fields, but I'm flexable/open minded...who knows what will turn up. Thankfully I don't need some thing "RIGHT NOW!!", 2-4 months is manageable. There is always the Peace Corps. Thanks guys.

As for all of you ASC#1 veterns, I have a sizable stash of BHM & my mom, if asked, WILL loan me gas $$$. ASC#2 is on my "to do" list for 2003. One must have his priorites:).

danny mull <>
akron, ohio, - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 20:43:51 (ZULU)

Titan, email, no attatchments

'Lito, email, no attatchments

All cleared through Norton at this end.

Marius, excellent tweak, keep up the good work.


Sean <>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada, eh - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 21:09:25 (ZULU)

Danny: You have mail, No attachments.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 21:18:24 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas to everyone.  

Lets not forget to say a prayer of thanks for all those serving around the world who are away from loved ones.  

Congrats to the US Sniper team, and Marty, George and Armalite. Maybe now gas guns will get some respect as legit sniper tools.  Were their any of the Mk11 Mod0's their?  I saw a few Armalites in the photos.

I have gotten over a dozen Emails on the safe room/vault topic. I will respond to each of you in the next day or so.  Sarge has asked me to put something together for the site.  I am flattered to be asked and will get something together over the next few weeks.  Each one of these I have done share the same design principles, but are all different in specific design. IF anyone wants, I can do full blown drawings and Specs for your application.

Medicjim brings up a good point about basement becoming  swimming pools in a fire.  My design utilizes a raised floor 16 to 24" above the concrete floor.  IF the flooding is worse than that, you will need some towels.  One side affect of this construction is that you get some radiation protection as well.  I have also installed climate control Systems in these rooms .  As with anything, there is no limit to what can be done if you spend enough money.  My focus has been to make this a financially viable addition to the average families new home.  

Who is taking up the collection to get  'lito a real computer anyway?  Not to start a computer war, but everyone I know with a MAC spends more time fixing it than using it.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 21:24:48 (ZULU)

Nailer - Your email return address is bouncing the reply I sent you.  Please advise.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 22:21:40 (ZULU)

******** A Soldiers Night Before Christmas ***********

Twas the night before Christmas, he lived all alone,

In a one-bedroom house, made of plaster and stone.

I had come down the chimney, with presents to give,

And to see just who, in this home, did live.

I looked all about, a strange sight I did see,

No tinsel, no presents, not even a tree.

No stockings by the mantle, just boots filled with sand,

On the wall hung pictures, of far distant lands.

With medals and badges, awards for all kinds,

A sober thought came through my mind.

For this house was different, it was dark and dreary,

I found the home of a soldier, once I could see clearly.

The soldier lay sleeping, silent, alone,

Curled up on the floor, in this one bedroom home.

The face was so gentle, the room in such disorder,

Not how I pictured a United States Soldier.

Was this the hero of whom I'd just read,

Curled up on a poncho, the floor for a bed?

I realized the families that I saw this night,

Owed their lives to these soldiers, who were willing to fight.

Soon round the world, the children would play,

And grownups would celebrate a bright Christmas Day.

They all enjoyed freedom each month of the year,

Because of the soldiers, like the one, lying here.

I couldn't help wonder how many lay alone,

On a cold Christmas Eve in a land far from home.

The very thought brought a tear to my eye,

I dropped to my knees, and started to cry.

The soldier awakened and I heard a rough voice,

"Santa don't cry, this life is my choice.

I fight for freedom, I don't ask for more,

My life is my God, my Country, My Corps."

The soldier rolled over and drifted to sleep,

I couldn't control it, I continued to weep.

I didn't want to leave on that cold, dark night,

This guardian of honor so willing to fight.  

I kept watch for hours, so silent and still,

And we both shivered, from the cold night's chill.

Then the soldier rolled over with a voice soft and pure,

Whispered, "Carry on Santa, it's Christmas Day, all is secure."

One look at my watch and I knew he was right.

 "Merry Christmas my friend, and to all a good night."



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 22:26:20 (ZULU)

To all;

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

May our people on the pointy-end have a hot meal and a warm bunk.  

There's a nice-looking M70 HV 308 on Gunbroker;

Also a m700 308 on the Emporium.  (Mine)



d <>
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 22:37:21 (ZULU)


The snow started falling about an hour ago so it will definitely be a white Christmas.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all of you and your families.  Please don't forget to say an extra prayer for our troops far from home.

Doc Holloway

Doc Holloway <>
The snowy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 22:53:18 (ZULU);

   I just read where is shutting down. Thought somebody would like to know.

M14 clones;

   Has anyone here had any experience with the Armscorp rifle? I want to start a future project on a M14 type rifle. Of course I want National Match parts. Trying to get some ideas.

                LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, December 23, 2002, at 23:17:40 (ZULU)


ALERT!!! I may have inadvertently sent the list members a virus today. Recieved a message from Boltster and opened the my virus scan didn't pick it up. Stripped out my mail addresses and sent it'self to all of you. Most came back indicating infected files, but some may have made it through. Be careful of any e-mail I may have sent between 10:00 AM and 2:30 PM 12/23/02.

My system has been upgraded to prevent this happening. My apologies to any members who may have been effected.

Have today and tomorrow off...and am enjoying it.

My best to all and a Merry Christmas.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 00:49:50 (ZULU)

I would like to find the pencil necked, hump backed son of a bitch that has targeted the Hawgs for viruses. I would rip his head off and piss down his bloody stump of a neck. He has now evidently picked me, the Boltster, for his antics. I formally invite him to meet me wherever he desires for a thorough ass whipping.

I haven't sent a list email in at least a week. Plus, my Norton scans emails before they are sent and when they come in.

Bolt, pissed off and out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 01:10:45 (ZULU)

Mk4:  I just showed up here to post that same poem, just got it from an FBI guy that tought a WMD class here a few years ago.

To all have a merry Christmas and a happy new year.  I go on for 72 at 0800, and I have to work New years eve.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 04:20:26 (ZULU)


 Yeah...AMO.  Somebody's gotta make sure they still fly when the shrink wrap gets yanked off them!  And I figure that with one of these in-theater jobs--I can actually get over there.  The way my luck goes, if I went from here to a Divisional unit--it'd be designated "strategic reserve" for whatever happens.  This way, I'm there...and if we go, I can find my way into a vacancy as understrength units show up.  Some unlucky follow-on replacement can have the job I had...well, it sounds good on paper anyway...might even work...I've pulled off crazier moves.

Recruiting seems a bit slow the last 90 days.  I wonder if uncertainty over the next "big" move is slowing things down?  When the shield went to storm--the volunteers picked up.  May be the same thing now.  Dunno yet.  I'm getting the history lesson from my senior NCOs.  They know this business better than I ever will.  They say the slow quarter is from kids waiting to see what they're getting into.  Makes sense at a glance...

NKPA says they'll "destroy the earth" if we come after them.  I guess they think the "earth" extends north from the 38th parallel to the Yalu River.  Bawwww-haw-haw.  I say let'd blow them to the hermit kingdom-come.  Oooooh, haaaaaa!  I slay me....wait, here's one:  Kill Im, son!  Whhooooohoooo.  Dislexic spotter talk....whoooohhhooooo...uh-oh, my ass just fell off.

The Gulf countries say that we better move now or never...they're taking heat from their citizens over the build-up and rhetoric.  I just hope it don't go earlier than say, 1 June.  Heheh.  

And on the lighter side--Hoppy Halitosis---errr, happy holidays to all!  (I'm the dislexic spotter from above mention)

Joe M

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 07:52:12 (ZULU)


 Dude, you've got to stop playing so hard with your friends CPT Morgan, John Danniels and James Beam.  I know it's the holidays and all but go easy or your head will explode.  Mine did.

Ref: Wind

What is the definative reference on wind effects and calling the wind?  I'm watching a thread over on Snipers Hide about wind and there is some stuff being written there that just doesn't correspond with my personal experience or training.  I'd like to do some research.  I've already exhausted my collection of PS magazines dating back to '95.

Merry Christmas to all.....

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 12:22:31 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all !!!!!

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 13:32:20 (ZULU)


I only wanted one thing for Christmas....and it came early !!!!

The dealer called me yesterday at 3pm and said it was in.....a new ToyotaMR2Spyder.....I drove all night !!!!

Later, and Merry Christmas to all.....gotta burn some more fossil fuel.....


JRMoore <>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 13:56:35 (ZULU)


 What are you intrested in as far as wind?? I agree with you, alot of things I have read about wind not jiving with real world shooting. I get to shoot in wind most of the time and have found mirage at the target to be the best gauge for my wind call.

 I have also had wind cancel itself out(Blowing two different directions along the path of the bullet). I think it really has a lot to do with the type of terrain your shooting across too. This is a good topic because it seperates the men from the boys.

 With lazer range finders, range is not the real problem wind is. Its a fickle mistress thats for sure.

Pat <>
- Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 14:58:42 (ZULU)

Ref: Wind Interest

I'm interested in learning more about zero value wind.  Head wind and tail wind and what effect they have at long ranges.  I've always assumed little or none but others have different opinions.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 15:16:09 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad, I've had wind that SHOULD have been zero (from my heels to the target) give me erotic results. Erotic in you should have seen the curves! I'm just saying that lots of zero wind, at least here, really isn't zero wind. And Joe might be playing full contact tag with CPT Morgan, but hey, who hasn't? My head didn't explode, OK, so someone in front of me could have commented differently.

Merry Christmas to the lot of you reprobates, and may next year be even better than last year. Let's hope that Santa has that one elf on the ammo production line working hard for the midnight delivery.

And don't do anything like take up a collection for the kittywhackers computer, he's busy enjoying life right now, even moreso tomorrow, and doesn't need a computer anyway. He's got a good PC, and the Mac, well, isn't a computer to begin with. JUST TEASING!

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 15:45:07 (ZULU)

Mornin' Gentlemen,

First let me say Thank You for allowing me in this august circle.

My interest in long range shooting started a few years ago.  I am an American War Between The States reenactor.  I had been doing an impression of a line Infantry with several friends.  After 10 years of standing shoulder to shoulder burnin' powder we got bored so we started looking for something else to do.  Not wanting to get out of the Infantry (Artillery and Cavalry are WAY too expensive!!) we found an obscure mention of Sharp Shooters.  We went into research mode and developed an impression based on Cleburne's Co.H Independent Sharpshooters for our Confederate impression and Brendan's United States Sharp Shooters for our Federal impression.  

This developed into an interest to see if we could duplicate any of the documented shots made in the WBTS.  Such as the shot made on Gen. Sedgwick, 800yds with a hex bore Whitworth.  

The Hex bore Whitworth rifle is a wonderful piece of engineering.  Queen Victoria fired the opening shot of the 1860 (British) National Rifle Association match at Windbldown Down with one of Sir Joseph's hex bore rifles at 400yds the round hit the top of the upper right hand arm of the X.

I also step forward in American history to cover the westward expansion to about 1890 or so that's about the time when Texas starts becoming civilized.  Well as civilized as it was gona be.

I shoot a Shiloh Sharps 50-140-700 and a Shiloh Sharps 45-120-500.  Billy Dixon knocked a Comanche off of his horse at the range of 1530yds at the battle of Adobe Walls in far West Texas using Batt Masterson's 50-90 "Old Reliable" made by Christen Sharps.

I would be more that happy to answer any questions Y'all might have about our history as Sharp Shooters and shooting Black Powder.  Now with that said, I don't clam to be an expert, but, I will share what I know, and, if I don't know I'll find out and get back with you on this forum or by private e-mail if you wish.

Once again let me say Thanks for the opportunity to be here, and Happy Holidays.

Your Obedient Servant,

Jim McNabb

"Any society which suppress the Heritage of its conquered minorities, prevents their history, and denies them their symbols, has sewn the seed of its own destruction."

Sir William Wallace, 1281 AD

Jim McNabb <>
The Colony, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 16:02:52 (ZULU)

Horus Vision Reticle -

A while back, Undude told about his experience doing some testing on the Horus reticle.  Stopped in at my local dealer yesterday evening to do some last minute shopping and he showed me a S&B scope that came in on pawn.  The scope had stickers on the front bell that said "Horus Vision Demo Not For Sale".

I tried the Horus demo on their web site and it seemed to work pretty well.  Problem is the web site demo ain't anything like looking through the actual scope.  All those lines and numbers are really hard to read in the actual scope, at least for my old eyes.  Anyway, the shop wants $1K if anyone is interested.

Merry Christmas to you all!


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 16:17:46 (ZULU)

Kevin (Andy's Dad),

Have you looked at Randolph Constantine's book "Modern Highpower Competition, from Beginner to Master."  Let me quote his last paragraph in his chapter on doping wind:

"Secondly, I want to caution you not to be one-sided in your approach to doping the wind.  I still believe that mirage, when it is present, is a much more discriminating indicator of the wind than the flags, but I now think you should not neglect any indicator of the wind or any of the four strategies.  If you find yourself actively ignoring one or more of the strategies, make ourself use it.  In the short term, some scores may go down, but in the long run, you will learn from it and become a better wind doper, and thus, a better shooter."

He covers a lot of good information and ideas on how deal with various conditions.  I'm still learning myself but I believe that his information will help.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 17:08:14 (ZULU)

 Happy Holidays to all you folks, take care and be safe.


 Went to Alberta with the G-A Precision 338 Lapua and killed a meat moose.  Close shot at about 180 yards, 300 grain Sierra to the lungs, traveled another 30 to 40 yards and "expired".

 During load development I got as high as 3046 fps with the Sierra 300 (not recommended) but currently shoot at 2850 and will go for 2950 on next load workup.  (32 inch Mike Rock barrel and a CZ 550 Safari action.)

 If you happen across a few of the Atropine or 2-Pam-Chl auto-injectors take a look at the internal mechanism(s)... pretty good pressure release system... could be converted or copied for other uses.

 My son is in Germany now, went last month to V Corp (Army lingo stuff, don't have a clue what it means... in the Navy we had real names for stuff!).

 Tac-Ord 6.5 x 284 (Norma) should be here in a while, new rifle to shoot and play with, also have a G-A precision "Gumby" version rifle in 243 Win on the way.... more toys.

 Again, take care and be safe.


Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 17:15:58 (ZULU)

All you hogs have a Merry, Healthy and Safe Xmas.

God Bless you and yours and hope your dreams come true.


TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 17:54:27 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas to all those and their families that visit here and have a safe and enjoyable holiday season. A special Merry Christmas and thank you to all of you on the edge protecting our freedom.

Kimbershooter <>
Disputanta, Va., USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 18:07:36 (ZULU)

M14 Clones  - Jody, I ordered an Armscorp M14 for a friend of mine a few years back (rack grade) and it shot okay.  But a local retired Marine armorer took a look at it and called it a piece of doody.  Bad chamber/head spacing etc.  They sell the NM receivers in the Shotgun news for a few hundred dollars but I don't have any experience with these.  When it came time to get myself an M14 clone, I ordered a new rear lugged receiver from Springfield Armory for about $600.  Then I shipped it off to the good folks at Fulton Armory with $1800, almost a year later I got it back as a National Match Peerless rifle...I love how this gun shoots and shoots and shoots...I gues what I am trying to say is the old adage is true get what you pay for.

Anyone have any experience with that new Blaser R93 long range gun in .338 Lapua?  Any thoughts?  (I'm toying with the idea of getting one of these in .338 Lapua.)  Note contrary to what GUNS magazine would lead you to believe, the caliber/barrel changes only apply to the smaller calibers...the .338 Lapua guns cannot be fitted with barrels for the other available calibers -- from the SIGARMS website.

A used HORUS Vision sight for $1K..seems high (is it in pristine condition?)...their website sells scopes for about $1K new and the Schmidt and Bender model for about $1500.

Any thoughts you hogs have would be most welcome.  Now I'll shut up!


Gerry <>
Newberg, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 19:46:56 (ZULU)

I generally don't post long jokes and stuff copied from emails but I have to do it this time LOLLOLLOL :)

"Presidential election that was too close to call.  Neither the Republican presidential candidate nor the Democratic presidential candidate had enough votes to win the election.  Therefore, it was decided that there should be an ice fishing contest between the two candidates to determine the final winner.

There was much talk about ballot recounting, court challenges, etc., but a week-long ice fishing competition seemed the (manly) way to settle things. The candidate that caught the most fish at the end of the week would win. After a lot of back and forth discussion, it was decided that the contest would take place on a remote and cold lake in Wisconsin.

There were to be no observers present, and both men were to be sent out separately on this remote lake and return daily with their catch for counting and verification.  At the end of the first day, George W. returned to the starting line and he had ten fish.  Soon, Al Gore returned and had no fish.  Well, everyone assumed he was just having another bad hair day or something and hopefully, he would catch up the next day.

At the end of the 2nd day George W. came in with 20 fish and Al Gore came in again with none.

That evening, Bill Clinton got together secretly with Al and said, "Al, I think George W. is a low-life cheatin' son-of-a-gun.  I want you to go out tomorrow and don't even bother with fishing. Just spy on him and see if he is cheating in any way.

The next night (after George W.comes back with 50 fish), Bill Clinton said to Al, "Well, what about it, is George W. cheatin'?"

Al replied, "He sure is, Bill, he's cutting holes in the ice."

Boltster starting the holidays off in a good mood for a change, OUT!

Bolt <>
NC, - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 19:48:58 (ZULU)


Jim McNabb;

  I'd like to see a match using the old school stuff. I bet that's cool.

  I try to go to the re-enactments here in the Mobile area. The local fellas put on a good show considering how small they are. The re-enactments at Blakeley and Forts Morgan and Gaines are the only War of Northern Aggression battles done around here. Fort Gaines has a functional 32 pounder facing the mouth of Mobile Bay. I love when they fire it.

  If you ever come over this way, look me up.

  Do you have a Whitworth? I've been wanting one.


  That was funny.


  All I want for Christmas is for everyone to remember what Christmas is all about. And no, it ain't commercialism.

  I heard on the radio yesterday something about a small town is doing a "festival of lights" or something like that because two families in the town didn't like Christmas. Now, the town Christmas tree is the "red, white, and blue tree". I think they said it's in Montgomery County, MD. Not sure , just heard bits and pieces on the radio at work.

                LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 19:51:32 (ZULU)

>>>>I shoot a Shiloh Sharps 50-140-700 and a Shiloh Sharps 45-120-500.  Billy Dixon knocked a Comanche off of his horse at the range of 1530yds at the battle of Adobe Walls in far West Texas using Batt Masterson's 50-90 "Old Reliable" made by Christen Sharps.<<<<<


First of all, welcome to the DR.

I believe that there are several things you've said that need to be clarified.

First of all the Adobe Walls Fight of 1874 took place in the Texas Panhandle (NE of Amarillo) in what's considered NW Texas rather than far West Texas which would be more represented by the Permian Basin/Guadalupe Mountains/El Paso area.

Also, I've seen nowhere in his book where he used Bat Mastersons rifle. I believe the rifle he used belonged to Henry Hanrahan, one of the "Walls" businessmen. Dixon lost his "Big 50" only a few days prior to the battle while trying to cross the Canadian River while it was on the rise. The rifle he bought for himself after arriving at the Adobe Walls settlement was in 44-77 Sharps, not his preferred caliber but the next best thing to the Big Fifty. At the beginning of the battle, Dixon found himself separated from his ammo which was in the next building, hence his need for borrowing a rifle.

The distance of the shot that Dixon allegedy made @ 1538 yards has proven to be incorrect. Yes, it does say in the book "The Life of Billy Dixon" that the distance was appoximately 7/8 of a mile. A quick work of the calculator will tell you thats 1540 yards. The original 1914 copy of "The Life and Times of Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls Texas" says differently. That figure was more specific and more accurate @ 1200 yards (still a good shot though). Somewhere between the 1914 and 1927 publications, the distance was changed.

Since then, modern surveyors with lazer range-finding equip. have determined that nothing lines up with the 1538 yard distance. Having said that, you have to understand the geography around Adobe Walls area which is in the Canadian River Basin and the Indian in question, was shot along the edge of an escarpment. Dixon was a surveryor himself and was right all along.

The Adobe Walls name came from a trading post built by William Bent of Bents Fort fame in the 1840s and was a vain attempt in trying to trade with the Indians of that time period. The problem was there were too often more than one tribe there at any time and the Bents realized that it was too risky in trying to stay alive with one's own scalp intact.

The First Battle of Adobe Walls took place in 1864 and involved Kit Carson (having worked at Adobe Walls 20 years earlier) was now commander of the First Cavalry, New Mexico Volunteers and dispatched to engage the Comanche and Kiowa Indians and to put a stop to the raiding and attacking of wagons along the Santa Fe Trail. Not going into too much detail about this, Carson was faced with overwhelming odds and if not for a couple of mountain howitzers, would've been faced with the same fate as Custer. What was left of the (original) Adobe Walls in 1874 wasn't much and the buffalo hunters even at that time were unclear of its origination. The buildings that the merchants and hunters of 1874 built, were made of sod...and its a good thing that they were.


I'm also curious as to why you're shooting the 50-140 and the 45-120 as neither of these calibers are original Sharps chamberings as opposed to the 50-90 X 2.5 or the 45-110 X 2 7/8 which are. The rifle made for Tom Selleck in his excellent movie, "Quigley Down Under" was chambered for the 45-110 X 2 7/8. This rifle and 2 others were made for Selleck, the Producer and Director by Wolgang Droege, the original owner of Shiloh Rifle Mfg. These rifles designed for Selleck, had a LOP of 14.5" with a 34" barrel.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 20:26:05 (ZULU)

I have an Armscorp rifle that shoots sub moa groups, Krieger barreled but otherwise stock. I've got another one on the way. If they were junk I don't think you'd find George Gardner offering to build rifles for people with them. I know all manufacturers have a bad lot occasionally but as a rule, I think Armscorp builds a decent receiver. IMHuneducatedO better tnan the new Springfoield by miles.

Headed for the snow plow, what a way to spend Christmas eve. You guys enjoy the egg nog for me.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 21:13:49 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas, all.  May God watch over you in the coming year and protect you and those you love.

Special thanks to those who stand in the gap.


BMG Mike <>
- Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 21:32:28 (ZULU)

To All:

I want to wish all of you a Merry Christmas, and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year.

I also want to extend my heartfelt thanks to all who have chosen to be apart from their loved ones and to risk their lives for the preservation of freedom and justice.

My beloved wife and I just returned from Albuquerque where we attended a Christmas Eve service. It included prayers for all victims of terrorists, for our leaders, and for all who protect freedom and justice.

We all should offer up similar prayers.

Thanks to all of you here whom I count as my good friends. You guys have seen me through some hard times and have helped me celebrate the good ones!

Tonight we will put out the luminarias (farolitos for those in the Northern part of the State) and go to our neighbors' house for a good ole-fashioned Christmas Eve celebration.....posole, tamales, enchiladas, green chile stew, bizcochitos.......maybe a cerveza or two!

I hope all of you have as wonderful a time!

Very Best,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 22:05:21 (ZULU)

To all those that are separated from their familes over the Holidays we send our prayers that you may remain safe. This is not just our military but those that serve in other ways. The police, fire, EMS and hospital workers around the country and world that are keeping us secure. May your days, and nights :-), be as peaceful as can be hoped for.

May the Lord keep us safe, one and all, as we approach a New Year.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Marius, Sarge, Scott, Pete

The Sniper Country Council

Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 22:23:00 (ZULU)

'Lito or those who may know;

I know the Stealth has a cut-rifled bbl.  

What about the Winchester Coyote?  Forged, cut, buttoned...?

The m700 VS.  Same "issues" as the rest of the M700s?  (As in lack of QC resulting in a possible POS?)

And again,  Merry Christmas to all.  ALL of you on the pointy-end stay safe.  Will toss a Jack or two down for you all tonight.

And thanks to those who listened to my venting related to our family tragedies.  We are all well at this time.



dennis <>
me, Kalifornicateya, usa - Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 22:49:57 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, gentleladies, scholars and Hawgs in general....

I would like to take this opportunity to wish everybody a happy Christmas. Doughlady, Sniper Mutt and I are getting ready for the onslaught of parents, kids and the future grandkid still in the oven, tomorrow so I figgered I better give good wishes now.

And to all the folks doing duty where ever you are, THANKS. You are lucky to be able to do a job for your country that some of us, for what ever reason, never got an opportunity to do.

A festive Boltster, Out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 00:01:02 (ZULU)

Merry Xmas guys from all the shooters down here in the colonys


  ps: there is lots of beer here and its 28 deg C @ 80% wind full

value 2-5 kph @9:00  I hope you and your kin are well .

To all the guys who are off shore stay low & watch your backs

 Regards Richard M Orsulich

Richard <>
Takapuna, Auckland, New Zealand - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 00:37:44 (ZULU)

Gents, and all the rest of you BK Sain types,

Whew.  Mom in law over.  Just finished a bottle of Cabo Wabo myself. Boy, this was a pretty tolerable X-Mas eve.

Safe & Happy Holidays to all, whichever you shall celebrate.

Nest 3 off. Tank God.


Deputy Doug

Deputy Doug <>
K Town, WI, US of Good ole A - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 00:53:02 (ZULU)

Just a quick note to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and Happy Holiday.  (Is that PC?)

I hope Santa is good to all of you and gives you bullets that don't drop in elevation at long distances and are not deflected by the wind.


Keith <>
North Central, WV, - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 02:55:58 (ZULU)

To all the Cops, Firemen, Ambulance Personnel, Hospital Personnel, Border Patrolmen & women, But MOST of all to our service Men and Women, of all nationalities, Merry CHRISTmas and a Happy New Year.

THANK YOU for all you do, but especially for shouldering the sword of freedom.


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 03:24:18 (ZULU)


Whew!  What a last couple of days.  My best friend and mother of my kids was in a wreck a couple of days ago in Alabama.  She had to spend a few days in the hospital but now she is home and appears that she will mend up okay.  She's a tough shit, should have worn the eagle, globe and fishook.  We've been through the coals with each other over the last 12 years and sometimes we could use each other for target practice but...

This was absolutely the worse couple of days in my life.  Unable to get home from Hawaii and now I'm back in Japan.  Luckily I have some good pals and she has some good friends down there and her and the kids are doing fine.  But DAYAMN!!!!


Yep, I'm still here in sunny Yokosuka, Japan.  TEmps in the 40's but the sun is actually shining today.  Cruising around the campus today I look in the eyes of the young sailors and Marines walking around and they have that look in their eyes of "Wish I was fricking home".  But as you that have been there know, its just a gut check.  I wish there was someway that those guys could get the messages that you dudes posted re:thanks and all of that.  I'm proud to be over here with these dudes and dudets.  They are good kids and it looks like we'll be slinging lead in Iraq and maybe Korea soon and these yahoos will be the ones doing it.  

Well, you lads hang loose.  

Any one have contact with Boucher these days?

Mike, email me and let me know what the fuck you are up to....

Out here  

Gooch <>
- Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 05:08:04 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas! I hope that everyone on this site, posters and lurkers alike, have a happy and healthy Christmas season.


     Unless things have drastically changed since I got my Stealth they don't come from Big Red with a cut-rifled barrel. The only Winchester product that I know of that comes with a cut-rifled barrel is the Sharpshooter! I think the older Sharpshooters came with a Schneider barrel (ask 'lito - he has one) and the newer Classic versions have a barrel by H-S Precision (JR made mine).

Looks like a typical Christmas for me. Everything going along smoothly until the furnace blower motor started making noises yesterday, so I spent a good part of what was a good shooting day finding a new one and putting it in. This afternoon it looks like the voltage regulator on the ol' ladys car is gonna take a dump. Job # one for Thursday!

I shouldn't complain. We're all healthy and happy, having a great Christmas Eve, and it just started snowing. Wouldn't mind a White Christmas!

Take care,  ALAN

Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 05:37:49 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Beer!!!

With a Wife and Daughter who like to go hunting with me, I don't need no steenking presents ; )

My Daughter and I set up by the pond for some ducks...

A snipe drops in and she drops it clean the first shot, her first wild critter kill! (pen-raised quail don't count)

With a girl that will sit for hours by my side in a sleet storm, who needs a son ; )

By the way, how fast is the wind blowing when the sleet is falling at a 20 degree angle off of horizontal ?

You smoke pole experts: I'm wanting a barrel for my Encore to shoot BP cartridge, do I have to buy one made for that, or can I shoot BP out of a stock 45/70 barrel ? If I have to buy a custom I'll shoot 45/90.

Them guys at T/C must lap the hell out of there barrels after rifling them, these are the easyest stock tubes I ever cleaned.

All you boys going over there, to do that thing...

THANKS, our prayers are with you!!!

I asked my wife, what I should name my new SC-stick, she said "lucky"

I asked, "why lucky?"

She said "cause you'll be lucky to hit anything with it!"

I get no respect ; )

4i's <>
White, Christmas , U.S.A - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 07:01:09 (ZULU)



bomac <>
- Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 07:34:47 (ZULU)

Lurker mode off:

Merry Christmas!  Thanks for a year of education and laughs.  I wish you all the very best of Christmas and a GREAT New Year.

Lurker mode on:

Rod Chatfield <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 10:20:38 (ZULU)

"To all those that are separated from their familes over the Holidays we send our prayers that you may remain safe. This is not just our military but those that serve in other ways. The police, fire, EMS and hospital workers around the country and world that are keeping us secure. May your days, and nights :-), be as peaceful as can be hoped for."

That would be me falling under the Fire/EMS section. I'm getting ready to leave for work now and will work my 24 hour shift but I'm not complaining. Part of the job. I got to spend last night with my family and we're having a prime rib dinner with all the fixings at the fire station so that takes the sting out. ;) But I too would like to thank the others, especially the military who couldn't be with thier family at all this holiday season, as well for doing thier jobs like professionals.

I would like to wish all here a Very Merry Christmas and a wish that you all stay safe and happy.

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 11:57:46 (ZULU)

Gentleman (and Ladies),

May your Christmas be one of Peace and Good Will.

Remember what the real purpose of the day is,  and thank the Lord for all you have been blessed with in your lives, and shall soon receive.

 Now where was that little black Tupperware box tied with the red ribbon and bow, I saw Santa slipping under the tree last night..........


SNOWY WHITE cHRISTMAS! IN , By-Gawd West Virginny, - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 14:50:19 (ZULU)

Well here it is fellow Rosterferians. The first annual Dear Santee Clauz wish list letter. Yes I know, I'm posting it a little late but I did make sure that Santee Clauz got it in time and we did get into a bit of an argument (some of you boys have really been naughty this year ;)))  


Dear Santee Clauz,

I've been a real nice boy this year. (yeah, really).

Please send the following items for all the other good boys. Well, at least most of them. "Whada ya mean most of them aren't on your list?"

To Marius - PATIENCE with Hawgs. "Say he's already put in for a new bag of golden BBs?"

To Sarge- another 308 stick he can't seem to get enough. "What do you mean all that left is a Ru..Ru..Ru (well, you know what I mean)."

To JR: a muckle dram supply of Glenmorangie single malt. "Don't take him any Cutty Sark. Them Scotts are serious about their scotch. ;)) "Don't know what a muckle dram is? Santa I thought you was Scottish."

To Joe Mahon: A tour of duty in the Caribbean's and a clean bill of health for his little girl.

To Peter Lincoln: A year's paid up policy of car insurance. No, make that two.(Might add some health ins. while you're at it)

To Mike Miller: A huge military contract for rifle slings... and paid in advance. "What do you mean military contract and paid in advance don't go in the same sentence?"

To Lito: A new computer. "What kind? Anything but a Mac. Oh, and a new picture of Torstens sister."

To Yote Bait - A better way of arguing the merits of the Shepherd scope. On second thought maybe a new and improved yote call. (just kidding Bill)

To Jaeger: His Christmas came early this year. Anything that'll fit an M14 ;))

To MedicJim: LOTS of uninterrupted sleep..."not for him, for his new baby" ;))

To B.K. Sain: Slap the ugly stick on him. The chicks seem to dig him tooooo much. He can't stand the strain.

To George Gardner: A way to turn out sticks faster. "((Wait a minute))), Kevin M. said he's too fast. Never mind."

To Marty: the perfect rifle action. "I don't know which one, ask him."

To Kevin (Andy's Dad):  a physical exam that would make his heart doctor happy.

To Gooch: a shooting facility that would make Clint Smith blink.

To Chris: A 200, 20 X at the next 1K match... or a bucket of chicken (and show him how to spell Chile) "I know you're not in the miracle business....okay....A bucket of chicken will do."

To Bruce Robinson: His Christmas came early too (a young loving new bride. May we all be so fortunate)

To Bolt: A couple of thousand fishing reels to repair so he can afford his next stick. "You can get the order but they'd be due back in 2 weeks? Sure he can handle them."

To MK4: 5 new George Gardner sticks totally tricked out, blueprinted <hehe>. All topped with an assortment of MK4s and LRTs with Premier's Gen II Mil-Dots, Badger bases and rings, unlimited range time, unlimited reloading supplies and while you're at it enough to live on so I don't have to work for a living anymore. "What do you mean it would be easier to wish for World Peace?"


All of this is done in good humor. For all those got left out... you need to talk to Santa. No, actually I ran out of time and ideas ;)))))



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 15:15:37 (ZULU)

Opened my first Christmas present! A new V-Groove knife sharpener just like the one pictured! A little bottle of honing oil came with it. Will let you know how it works on my old pig sticker.

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 16:21:00 (ZULU)


>A used HORUS Vision sight for $1K..seems high (is it in pristine >condition?)...their website sells scopes for about $1K new and the >Schmidt and Bender model for about $1500.

As I said, it is a S&B scope with the Horus reticle.  Also, not sure how "used" it is as it is labled DEMO.  Comes with the box and the scope shows no wear, optics bright & clear.

Gotta go, wife had to work the ER today til 3:30 so I get to cook and still got gifts to wrap before the rest of the family gets here.

To all on the front lines of freedom both here and abroad, God Bless & Keep You All.  I include in this not only the military past & present but all you emergency types as well.

Merry Christmas

Don Smith <>
- Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 17:45:46 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas to all..

Off to work at double time and a half. Who said my GED wouldn't pay off?

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas , US of A - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 18:08:36 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas to all you guys.

Litto I hope your little guy hjas a happpy time and most importantly I hope its with you. My girls are at thier moms house for Christmas and I am at the PD.

MK4, thanks for the holiday wishes, would it be too much to ask that you ask my company get some good contracts in Afghanistan while I am there. Several HOGs will see work from it if it happens.

Bruce Robinson, Merry Christams old friend. Non are better than you.

Ken Hunter hope all is well and your wife is with you.

Undude/Back to nutts and a holes (Seems the season brings them out)

MikeMiller <>
CA, - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 19:43:19 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas to all-posted from work on one of the few days a year I get paid almost what I'm worth :))))))

Re M9 article- somehow don't think 1 negative response out of a total of 9 rises to the level of statisical significance.  Would like to know circumstances of some comments as what is quoted (I know, I know) is simply illogical.  Do still regard the basic M9 design as having several glaring weak spots-like the thin slide cross section and sharp corners at the locking block recesses.

Kevin Mussak, did you send out some kind of Xmas message about 3K size or did your address get highjacked?

WR Moore <>
- Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 20:34:52 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas to all you old farts, as well as you not so old farts.  Have a safe and Happy New Year.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 25, 2002, at 20:35:16 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas All

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 00:00:38 (ZULU)

WR...I've sent out no e-mail..delete it.

It has been a good Christmas here and a white one too.  I scored a new Leica 1200 and am happy as a clam.  Falling snow is not easy to range through so I'll try it more tomorrow.

Good night all.....

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 01:17:52 (ZULU)

Sorry that this didn't go on earlier, but Merry Christmas you reprobates, I hope all of you got exactly more than what you deserve from the fat man today.

You guys, and you know who you are, are on my list for things I'm thankful for today.

You guys, the ones wearing the uniform, I hope you've got more chow than you can handle, and get a chance to play fat dumb and happy this evening, at least.

And for the humor section, "and now we don our gay apparel". Not for Dirty Steve, the pumps just don't work on ice.

Amen Mk4, Amen.

And may all your Christmasses be white.

Jaeger <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 02:36:42 (ZULU)



   Received e-mail with attachment. I quickly deleted it. Sorry if it was real, but I don't believe it was.

                 LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 03:52:27 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas.  God Bless.

If anybody gets a position fix on the virus asshole, let me know.  I got a new torch and a tool steel Kabar for Christmas.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 07:10:02 (ZULU)

Ken M-'Tweren't real, second your motion on the sender, got a battery charger we could use before you skin & barbeque!

WR Moore2001 <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 13:52:43 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs!!

 Well hope everyone had a merry Christmas!! Our weather was clear and sunny not like some of you guys in the east!!


I told yotebait I would keep him up dated on my 1200yd Leica so I will fill you in too. As far as I have been able to test it, it compares to the Leica Gieveds for ranging so far. It has ranged dirt banks out to 1189yds. Rocks, trees and most anything else I have ranged to 1000+ yds.

 I hope to give it a through test this weekend against the Gieveds if I can get them again. The only draw back is the small size when your ranging you need to rest it on something. I have been very impressed with them so far.

 A buddy of mine played with them against his Bushnell 1000s.(He has a very good set of 1000s that would range 200yds past my old Bushnell 1000s). There were a couple of things his would not range that the Leicas ranged with no problem. The big difference, according to him, was the clearity of the glass. He could not make out some things at dusk with his an the Leicas brought the object in crystal clear.

 So far they appear to be the "Cats Nuts" Small, compat and they work!!! I will keep you guys posted as I get a chance to test them. I am pretty critical since I use them for shooting and have to range small targets.

Pat <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 14:43:12 (ZULU)

Ref: LRF 1200

I learned yesterday that laser range finders don't work well in a snow storm.  My guess is too much stuff in the air causing the beam to be scattered and reflected.  Hell, I couldn't see too far either so ranging was moot.

Attn: John (aceshigh)

I'm looking for a price on a "Dave Clark" headset Model #1013X.  Do you have a line on any discounts?  FWIW I'm looking at a Cessna 337.

It's been a good day.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 15:19:25 (ZULU)

Pardon my un-PC statements at this socially sensitive time in our country, but Merry Christmas and happy New Years to all youz bumz and reprobates.

All you'z Arabs and other heathens... go suck a rock!

We got hit with a nor'easter last night and it was a real hammer.  We slept on the floor at the Russian's place... he keeps Cpt. Morgan in his cabnet, just for me :)).

As much as I hate winter, God, it's beautiful outside today... just like a picture on a calendar.  The Russian and I were talking about how nice it would be to shoot a military Biathlon on X-country skis this morning.

Christmas morning was something to behold... Ruggus Rattus was up at 5:30, that the sound of rippin' paper could be heard all the way down to Virginia... he scored big time :))... I'm broke!!

Mike... I've had him all week, and get him most of next week... she gets him "ONE" day over the holidays... hee, hee, hee :))).

And an extra Merry Christmas for the 'yote Bate, and Rickster... youz' ol' timers take care of yourselves... we're a dying breed and we're the keepers of the flame.  Don't let it go out before it's passed on...

That's about it... later 'Gaters



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 15:38:42 (ZULU)

MK4 - thanks for the holiday wish on my behalf.

The wife bought me a "kid backpack"... in a few months, I will be using it to do my bi-weekly ruck training. Baby Cameron is sleeping through the night about 75% of the time, so things are MUCH, MUCH better.. She just had her 2 month shots and weighs in at 13lbs...

Here's wishing you all as much happiness as I have this holiday season. It's been a long time coming on my end.

To those away from home protecting the free world from gigantic, flaming sh*tbags, or staring through the windshield of a police cruiser, ambulance or fire apparatus... stand proud, and THANK YOU.

medicjim <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 16:04:52 (ZULU)

Jeager, I looked killer in my Mrs. Clause outfit. Haha

Work Christmas eve was slow, Christmas was slow as well but, two seperate fights and two officers were injured and went to the hospital for minor injuries. Minor cause it wasn't me injured. Both got hand injuries. Dislocated thumbs gotta hurt.

M9's.. Anyone know how many failures (Breakages) they have suffered? I have two M9's and a local shop is getting some Police trade ins soon. They are 40 S&W's and should be a good deal. I would think the 40's would be beefed up in the stress points.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 16:21:09 (ZULU)

Hey Hawgs, Reporting in after a couple months away from this place due to just too much life happening all at once..... It's good to be back, but now I have about three months of archives to try to catch up on!!!

Hope all had a Merry Christmas and have plans for a festive New Year.....

*Edited 'cuz I spend so much time with puters that I don't know how to spell anymore!*

Steve~Hockeyref <>
Sitting in snow covered, PA with a trigger finger that's twitching with the early stages of Cabin Fever, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 16:45:35 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve-You can buy crack checker at most weld shops to check the locking lug recesses for cracks that are starting.  Follow the directions to locate cracks that may not be visible to the Mk1 eyeball.  Or, the local speed shop should be able to put you on to someplace that does ManNaFlux.  I personally wouldn't buy any used Beretta without doing so.

One of the differences between an M9 and a civilian pistol is that the rear of the slide is captured.  Isn't supposed to be able to come off the frame toward you if the slide breaks.

Probus made heavy duty slides for the Seal teams and the Brigader  has a reinforced slide.  I think there was an "Elite" competition pistol with a similar system.

WR Moore <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 17:22:04 (ZULU)


Beretta M9S...I was with the Marines when we adopted them. The only problems I am aware of were those made in USA, at Accocreek, MD.

A number of slide separations in normal use. Marines replaced slides every 3000 rounds after that and still had failures. The "slide retaining feature did not work. Marine badly injured when the rear of the slide came straight back of the pistol and the retaining device failed.

BAD MAGAZINES issued to the troops in DS/DS...springs took a set and refused to feed.

My overall impression is that the M9 is big, clunky, and makes one wonder which is more dangerous, the enemy, or the pistol.

Thankfully, I was still carrying my 100% reliable and accurate Remington-Rand 1911A1. I NEVER had a issue 1911 fail to function in my entire career.

Overall, I have never heard of a failure of a civilian M92 pistol or an Italian made M92. The Stainless model does look sexy.

Merry belated Christmas to all roster hogs! When are we getting some "hoggettes"?

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 18:31:37 (ZULU)

Differences between 92's and M9:

According to Beretta -

"What is the difference between the 92F and the 92FS?  The 92F and 92FS are identical with the exception of a minor engineering change required for the military M9 contract. To standardize production this change was also applied to all current production 92/96 model pistols."

The change that they are talking about deals with an enlarged pin head on the hammer pin that fits in a slot in the bottom of the slide (left side of frame).  In the event of a slide failure the rear portion of the slide is stopped from leaving the frame by this pin head because the slot does not go all the way forward.  Older 92's do not have this feature.

With regard to to the locking block, careful inspection during routine cleanings will normally allow you to see any crack that is forming before failure occures.  The only other part that I have seen that seems to fail on occasion (infrequent but do break) is the trigger return spring.  The trick is knowing that the  gun will still function in a fight if you keep your head.  Use your trigger finger to push the trigger forward and the sear will reset and the gun will fire.  Repeat as necessary.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 18:43:58 (ZULU)

Dec 26th, 22hrs left in a 72.  Christmas eve was SLOW, Christmas day was jumping.  Snowing again, and I need a nap.

On the virus thing:  I am sure you guys have tried this but I have not seen it mentiond,   In the options area of your email there should be an option to show the full header or the abreaveated one.  Check the full header box.  When you get an e-mail at the end of the address line there should be an IP address.  This is the computer that sent the virus, you can fake email names but not ip address.  Now the trick is to track it to the general area, not hard and can be done with online programs that can be found with a simple search.  You will get something like "Yahoo server, San Jose California.  Now the hard part, but there are enough law enforcement peole here and someone should have connections.  They will not tell you the exact physical address of that IP address without a court order, but from what I understand sending virus laden e-mails is a crime in several states.  What you do with that info is up to you, good luck and good hunting.  

Medicjim:  Don't get used to sleeping, my son was sleeping through the night from 6 weeks till he was 4-5 months, then the teething came, and sleep once again vanished.  Get those homeopathic teething tablets at the drug store, they work, and were the only thing that saved my from the luney bin, that and I know how to get out of a straight jaket!

Y'all have a good day,


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 18:57:33 (ZULU)

Kevin - Our 1200 works on 'e' types to 650 and on good days to 750 and that is meters not yards, add 10% to estimate yards.  Have ranged to 1050 meters on a range tower while setting in targets and that was on a dull overcast day with a grey tower.  Get the same range readings form it as I was getting formt he 5000.00 version.  Think you will like it.  However, it has problems with close foliage as does most laser range finders.  Set on ignore and alot of the problems go away unless sctter is so bad that it degrades the beam.

'Lito - That is one of the reasons I teach and spend some of my weekends with the young soldiers.  They deserve all the help they can get before going into harms way.  I do what I can for them.

M9s - Besides being a 9mm POS we have stopped trading out slides and such since the last mod.  No more slide departures in our area.

Again, Happy Holidays and stay safe guys.

Hold Hard


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 19:12:11 (ZULU)

Almost forgot,

Andy's dad, have you checked e-bay for david clark head sets, a couple of our pilots have got killer deals on new/like new head sets and accesories.  Good luck.


*Kevin, you have e-mail, its clean.*

Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 19:18:47 (ZULU)

Robert H: So who sent the e-mail with this stuff hidden in the header?

Return-Path: <>

Received:  from Dheijfrox ([]) by (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.07 (built Nov 25 2002))

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 20:00:22 (ZULU)

Kevin, email incoming, N/A.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 20:02:27 (ZULU)

In response to the virus asshole(s), this is the link to the National Infrastructure Protection Agency.  I don't handle classified info, but I do work with FOUO stuff.  As such, the next time I get one of these damn viruses, it's getting sent to the Feds.  Any of you other guys who work for Fed/State/Local gov't, please do the same thing.  Even if you access via a company computer that is of little importance, same thing.  I wanna get this assmonkey in some Fed prison getting buttraped by Bubba before the new year is over.  

M9's:  We have had problems with shitty mags, with weak springs.  Get a whole column full of the 147's, and a little dirt/dust and they choke.  We have not broken any locking blocks that I know about, but I have killed some trigger return springs(3).  It's a large, long trigger reach 9mm.  Why did we ditch the 45 again?

Some more of my buddies are getting called up and some are coming back from where they were.  We're still in pre-game warmup, but it's coming, rest assured.  S/F...Ken M      

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 20:09:09 (ZULU)


    TechHandle: DK71-ARIN

TechName:   Kostick, Deirdre

TechPhone:  +1-919-319-8249


This is the IT tech that does support for that ip address's server, contact this person and tell them you are getting virus laden e-mails from that ip address (  They should be willing to help, might even shut his internet access off.

The rest of the info for that address is at:

Just copy and paste any ip address to the search bar and you should get at least the name of that ip address's server. and maybe a contact like the info above.



Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 22:05:02 (ZULU)


Happy Holidays to everyone.  I was looking for some help in locating information on the 300 Winchester Magnum. Specifically, a chart depicting adjustments from a 100 yard zero for known distance shooting out to 1,200 yards.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Mike Diorio <>
Palm Harbor, Florida, - Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 22:27:22 (ZULU)


 Tis the damn season, eh?  I have too much to give thanks for this past's the short list:

 The roster; for putting the collective boot in my ass back when I felt sorry for myself and wasn't being the father for my little girl in her time of need...

 My wife; for being the top shooter on her force...and making me work very hard at the handgun range. And for being the coolest female willing to put up with my crap that I ever married (that list is long).

 Nicole; the toughest three year old on the planet...she is kicking butt on the A.L.L. and she ignores pain that would make any of us fold.  

 The Non-Commissioned Officers of my team; they made me what I am to this command.  Especially to the 1SG--he kept me in check when my anger over-rode my common sense.

 My numba-one son; a man in the making right before my eyes...

 The US Army; where else would a drop out get so many breaks?

 For the new year, I resolve to live up to the standards that others have set around me...same as last year.  Maybe, if I keep trying, I'll get it right...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 22:29:19 (ZULU)

Ken M:  "Why did we ditch the 45 again?"

Answer:  Reagan (God bless him) came in and got massive DOD funding.  The brass had more bucks than brains and wanted a new toy.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 23:00:28 (ZULU)

What if:

Simultaneous attacks on both coasts involving a combination of chemical and biologic agents kill say... 30,000 total over a three month period of time.  The risk of future attacks is evaluated at 90%.  A month later, another 50,000 die in similar attacks on the central states...

The FBI figures out that tacit state sponsorship exists in Yemen, Somalia, Iran, Iraq, and couple incidental states in the mid-east.

How does a civilized nation respond?  Do we allow our children to be killed en masse because we cannot isolate the killers? Where is that line in the sand that when crossed switches America from "surgical operations" to "country killing" in defense of it's own?

medicjim <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 23:39:09 (ZULU)


 That ain't the half of it.  We're still trying to wear out the crap that came in on that blank we can get stuff that might actually work...the M9 is just starters...add to the list DUI dry suits, 1st Generation SINGARS, OH-58Ds (commanche interim), and on and on.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 23:49:11 (ZULU)


 The only way to answer that question is to allow the scenario to play out.  Our fellow citizens cannot think in terms of that sort of wanton death and destruction in the abstract; they need to experience it to understand the reality of it.  That my friend is a damned shame.  For allowing doubts to the tenacity of our enemy is to allow the attack to succeed.  We have too many in this country that default to some imaginary "basic good" in man.  Look at N. Korea- they admitted to having nukes two months ago; andf now we have senators wanting "to try diplomacy" to solve the crisis.  Short term memory is a mutha-f#cker sometimes...

I am not paranoid.

I just don't like to underestimate my adversary.  I like surprises to be of the "that was easy" variety...

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 23:57:46 (ZULU)

What about this:

We invade Iraq, Sadam buttplug feels like he is going to die anyway so what the hell, launches a few dozen chemical packed scuds into Tel-aviv.   The jews get really pissed and turn Iraq into a big glass bowl.  Some arab country (take your pick, insert name here) gets pissed and nukes Isreal.  N. Korea sees its chance and pounces on S Korea, China sends aid in the form of troops and equip. to the north.  Pakistan and India feel cought in the middle, and scared to death that the other is going to take advantage of the situation, one of them pulls the trigger (read Nukes) first.  Does the US still try using tech and smart weapons to end this or do we beat everyone down with a big hammer and sort out the details later?

Really tired and bored at work....  Just a thought.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 00:54:09 (ZULU)

Got an A-2 stock for xmas mounted my PSS in it and the front screw hits the bolt. I guess Ill have to bed it, or shorten the front screw. Seems like I read somewhere that you dont have to bed mcmillan stocks. What would you guys do? thanks Dan H.

Dan H. <>
northern Ca, - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 01:42:47 (ZULU)


I'd bed it and the shorten the action screw to length afterwards.


One hellava scenario in your previous post.  Kinda like the cold war all over again.....  You better switch to decaf mang ;))


Border tube is in TN,, and I should have it next week.  The second FagMag should be ready by mid-January if my stock comes in... Happy days....  Hope you're enjoying your trip back to the Colonies.


Chris <>
Well Sheeeit, 2002 season is over,,, Good new is, 2003 dates will be in next week. Look for a submission to the "Places to Shoot" on this most excellent of web sites., - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 02:05:14 (ZULU)

Well, the NK's are a far bigger threat than the Iraqis.  Chemical weapons are bad and everything, but it ain't the end of the world.  Dispersal is always the problem with any agent, and MRBM's are FAR from the best way to do it.  Maybe 10K casualties tops from a full on Iraqi strike with VX.  The krauts figured it would take 10K tons of Sarin to do lethal concentration in Paris to a height of 50ft, so take that into account when you plan for NBC crap.  VX is more potent than Sarin, but not enough so that it's really significant and the Israelis are pretty good at training their general population.  Plus they have Arrow and Patriot Pac 3 up and running.  Israel will probably nuke Tikrit in reply, I have no idea how many people live there, but I imagine it'd get a Jerico II missile or two.  Figure maybe 100kt(?) yield.  AFAIK, none of the other ME countries are developing nukes, and Pakistan would be stupid to give a bomb to anyone since it would be traced right back to them.  So that would end that exchange.  World would post strong condemnation of Israel in the UN and things would go right back to normal.

As I said, big problem is NK.  Unless we are willing to dig them out, it's going to be a real MF.  If they go nuclear, we can reply in kind very well.  They would be stupid to do so.  So they kill a bunch of SK's and some Americans.  We can and will turn NK into a charnel house.  Click on my name for a best guess of current US stockpile.  IN this case, I have to take the Curt LeMay approach.  Hit them early with everything you have.  In the long run it saves lives, mainly those lives that matter, those of your own.  In the first war, we killed over 3 million NK civvies.  We blew down their dams and starved them when their rice crops washed away.  Tell me how that was better then just firebombing all their cities in the first weeks of the war, and then you can tell me I'm wrong.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M      

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 03:33:20 (ZULU)


Re: the M9 Mags.  Any mag will bind up if the mags are not cleaned and rotated on a regular basis.  BUT I will say this for the M9 mags.  Most of the mags I see over here that the Navy owns are not OEM.  They are the old low bidder deal and I aint too impressed with them.  And as far as the 9mm round goes lets not go there.  Jeeze theres a dead horse for you.  Military pistol Ball ammo is generally a shitty deal to begin with .45 or 9mm.  It gets back to the basics of putting rounds into the target where they can do the most damage.

I was in Hawaii working with some fellers over there and the subject of lack of 5.56 stopping power in the 'Stan came up.  Rumors of Marines having to shoot badguys in the head to kill them since body shots werent working floated around.  Here is my Former Action Guy opinion.



We are fighting bad guys who have been fighting since before puberty.  They've been shot at and shot before.  A little bullet hole aint gonna stop him unless he is really hurt and I dont think they would care if it were a 7.62 or a 5.56.  I hope the DA lessons learned include teaching marksmanship again.

Out here  

gooch <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 04:21:53 (ZULU)

Hello all,

Although I lurk regularly, I haven't posted in a long time.

I went into My local gun store today looking to purchase a Kimber .45, and me and the gent behind the counter started talking long guns. I told him I was left handed and would be interested in something to build on for a rig  when he pulled out one of Remingtons VS in .308 "left handed" for $640.00.  I know that the talk of late is that Remingtons Quality has been sort of like shooting craps the past couple of years or so. You just don't know what your going to get. Is this a fair deal or should I pass it up altogether? Also, I've been searching the archives to find some info on the new safety key feature that turns that little key screw in the end of the bolt. Are youse guys having any trouble with this little domathingie. Are these things on all the new remmies, even the ones George makes? My wife has finally after all these years (4-5) given me the green light to do this. So we came home and I showed George's web site. I KNOW I CAN'T GO WRONG THERE !!! anyway she smiled "real big" so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Hoping Gleefully


JerryC <>
Houston, TX, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 04:29:30 (ZULU)

".... I couldn't help but notice the relevance of Tolkiens "The Two Towers" to today's political debate between those who would seek to accomodate Evil and those who would meet it head on.....There are lessons to be drawn from this movie, fantasy that it is, notwithstanding."

I think it was written in England during WWII, or just after, and is an allegory to that conflict.  

P. M. Hayden <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 04:42:21 (ZULU)

5.56 stopping power, finaly a firearms subject I have first hand knowledge about.

We have a very large level 4 (max security) prison about 10 miles out of town, shortly after it opened they had a riot (weekly occurance now) where 4 inmates got shot by the guards in the towers (mini 14, 223)  I was first in unit, took the most critical.  Single entrance in the right butt cheek, no exit, died 5 min after I got there.  Had another several weeks later, inmate shot in the back, just to left of spine, mid back, exit just to the left of the left nipple, died 5 min after I got there.  Both of these guys and the others (arm, leg type injuries) were knocked down with 1 shot and not moving anywhere afterwords.  The difference is the Cal dept corrections uses frangiable (sp?) bullets, to keep penetration to a min. for staff safety and other inmates not in the fight.  It is all about energy transfer, a bullet that does not expand (military ball) passes right through and unless you hit the CNS (spine/brain) not that much energy actualy is absorbed by the person.

Word of worning to those of you who have wood stoves that have the hot water pipes circulate through them to preheat the water before it gets to the water heater.  Just ran a call where the pipe burst inside a hot stove, the resulting steam blew the stove apart and took out half the livingroom.  If the guy had been sitting on the couch instead of the recliner he would have got a 2 lbs chunk of cast iron through the chest (went through the couch and into the wall.)


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 05:08:23 (ZULU)


Gooch-san has an excellent point. Rotate and Clean your mags(rifle or pistol). As an instructor I am amazed at the number of students who don't know, understand, or want to do this simple reliability task...

The the magazines we saw during Desert Shield/desert Storm were probably after market, but who knows? Since I carried a .45 I wasn't bothered.

Hence my low opinion of the M9 as a platform and a "tool"...

We use .223 frangible (Federal) at our correction sites. To date, no one that I know of shot, but should work OK. We issue the Mini-14.

The USMC is NOT happy with the new heavier bullets in the .223. They specified accuracy, at long range, and forgot about lethality. The M-16, as issued with the fast twist barrel and 55 grainers tumbled shortly after impact. Hence the horrendous wounds seen. The new 63 grain (and heavier) with the 1:7" twist just punch right through.

Target shooters won out again, dammit. Personally, I shot high expert with the original M-16. The new A-2 version with the fast twist and heavy barrel, better sights added another 10 points to that. Great target weapon...

Off to deal with the miscreants for the night...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 05:43:27 (ZULU)

5.56mm Lets not go there again.

For those who want some fairly well thought out open source wound ballsitics onthe 5.56mm go over to and peruse the ammo oracle.  Or try Tactical Forums - the Terminal Effects Forum.

In a nut shell both the M193 (55gr) and the M855 (62gr SS109) round really on velocity for effective fragmentation.

Like Gooch said



Just cause you shot at him does not mean you hit him!

Most of those frangible rounds do not have (what I would call) enough penetration, they may be fine for a prison but not what I would want to be shooting at people that are shooting back.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 06:20:34 (ZULU)

Gooch, with the M9, everybody gets Mozambiqued.  That's what I'm training my guys.  Kinda defeats the whole point of more rounds, but that's politics for you.  The M9 to Berretta was so that the Italians would let us put Pershing II and GLCM's in Italy.  INF treaty made that a non-issue, so we should shit can the Berretta, where it belongs, and go 1911's again.  Oh dear, we'll have to train the troops.  What a shame! <heavy sarcasm>

Wes, you have incoming mail with attached file.  You might find it interesting.  AFAIK, the USMC has no major gripes with the M855, other than the bad guys have to be shot in the head.  As Gooch said, that's just part of the BG's being tough SOB's.  I don't like 'em.  Shooting them in the face won't bother me one bit.  Won't be any harder than stomping my size twelve combat boot down on a prarie dog with it's guts blown out, trying to paw it's intestines back in, after I hit it too low with a 22 Hornet.  Prarie dogs are marginally cute. Stinking toothless ragheads that killed 3000+ fellow Americans ain't got a chance.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 06:21:54 (ZULU)

Late nite ramblings,

How long is it gonna take to get Ken and Joe into the inner circle of decision making in Washington? While their solutions are not always P/C, the end ALWAYS justifies the means. By the way Gooch, wanna re-up? I put your views in the same category of respect.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 07:10:21 (ZULU)


    From one of my former lives (working for DOD) - adaptation of the 9mm round for sidearms and SMG's was a 'gimme' to Nato. We beat them over the heads in the 1950's to make them accept our 7.62 as the STANAG round, and did the same by default with our 5.56 round. Going to the 9mm was a natural - every country in NATO but the US used it. When we signed the STANAG it sealed the fate of the .45ACP! Don't get me wrong, I like my P35, but I trust my 1911.

    As far as Baretta is concerned, yeah I heard about the munitions deal with the Italians but I also heard a bunch about bribery concerning Baretta and some US politicians and Pentagon people, and the resulting coverup. Anybody know whatever happened to the investigation of that?


   You did mean the original M16 with the SLOW twist (1/14) barrel and the 55gr (M193) round? I never fired one like that in sub-zero weather, I heard that they went to a 1/12 twist with the M16A1 because the 1/14 rifles couldn't keep the rounds on paper at 100yds during Arctic testing. So they speed up the twist, then send them to VN! HA!

    The change to the M855 round with the NATO 62gr SS109 bullet was a result of another STANAG requirement. NATO was not satisfied with the penetration of the 55gr bullet in the M193 cartridge at the longer ranges and forced a STANAG requirement increasing the performance to an ability to penetrate both sides of a 'Kraut' kevlar at something like 600m (if I remember correctly). I got this from an old military buddy that went to work at Crane - there was a competition for the design of the bullet for this new round, and our version outperformed all of the competition. Then some weenie-country (was it Sweden?) objected to our bullet because of 'humanitarian' grounds. Evidently, it performed just like our 55gr bullet. It tumbled or fragmented after entering human flesh and left an impressive permanent wound channel, which Euro-fags must not be able to handle. Anyway, they settled on the SS109 62gr bullet from Belgium (FN?) which has the desired penetration charastics, but not the wounding effect at closer ranges!

    The reason for the 1/7 twist in the A2,M4,and A4 rifles is not so much the need to stabilize the M855 (62gr) ammo. It works great in the 1/9 twist as far as you can shoot it. The 1/7 is used so our rifles can handle the M856 tracer round, which is even longer than the M855. In length it somewhat resembles the 77gr SMK. So we go to this really fast twist in our M16-type weapons to handle a tracer round that is , to the best of my knowledge, only issued to the SAW's!

Go figure,


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 08:03:21 (ZULU)

Alan I don't know where you got your info from but its not all factual.  

Excerpts from Martin Fackler MD. (I've got a lot more if people want)

The slightly heavier and longer American M855 bullet shot from the M16A2 assault rifle is replacing the M193 bullet shot from the M16A1 as the standard bullet of the US armed forces. FN Herstal originally developed this bullet type (which has a steel "penetrator" as the forward part of its core - Fig. 1) designating its bullet the SS109. The wound profile (Fig. 6) is very similar to that produced by the M 193 bullet. Although the SS109 and the M855 are not the same bullet, their differences are small and one almost needs a magnifying glass and a side-by-side comparison to differentiate the two. There is little difference in their performance in tissue.

The abdominal and the thigh wound produced by the M855 or the SS109 bullets would be essentially the same as those described above for the M16A1 M193 bullet

The longer 5.56mm bullets (M855, SS109) need a higher rotational velocity to maintain stabilisation in air. FN claimed that this faster rotation also causes the SS109 to have a significantly longer path in tissue before marked yaw occurs, thus producing wounds of less severity. This is simply untrue (compare Fig. 6 with Fig. 6). Additional rotation beyond that needed to keep the bullet straight in air appears to have little or no effect on the projectile's behaviour in tissue. However, there is a situation concerning rotation rates whereby these longer 5.66mm bullets can cause increased wound severity. Shooting the SS109 or M855 bullet in the older M16A1 rifle barrel (they are not intended for use in this 1-in- 12 in twist barrel, but in the newer M 16A2 1-in-7in twist) produces a bullet spin rate insufficient to stabilise the longer bullets. Such a bullet will yaw up to 70 in its path through air. Striking at this high yaw angle (essentially travelling sideways), these bullets break on contact and the marked fragmentation, acting in synergy with the temporary cavity stretch, causes a large (over 15cm) stellate wound with the loss of considerable tissue (Fackler, M.L., unpublished data, 1988).

Also some work from GKR

"5.56 mm/.223 terminal performance has been extensively studied.

The U.S. M193 55gr (3.6 gm) FMJ boat-tail bullet has a copper jacket around a lead core and typically exits the muzzle of a 20" M-16 barrel at 3094 f/s (943 m/s). When fired from the 14.5" barrel M-4 carbine it has a muzzle velocity of approximately 2800 to 2900 f/s (853 to 884 m/s) and when exiting the muzzle of the 10" barrel XM-177/Colt Commando and 8.3" barrel HK53, velocity is generally reduced to below 2500 f/s (762 m/s). Wound severity with this cartridge varies depending on bullet fragmentation. The degree of bullet fragmentation is related to impact velocity. At lower muzzle velocities and as the range to the target increases, the bullet striking velocity is reduced, limiting bullet fragmentation, and decreasing wound severity.

Down to a velocity of approximately 2700 f/s (823 m/s), generally around 150 meters from a 20" barrel and 75 to 100 meters from a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel, the bullet enters the tissue, leaving a small punctate entrance wound, and then travels point forward for approximately 4.7" (12 cm). If the bullet leaves tissue at this point, it will leave a small punctate exit wound and will have caused minimal tissue disruption along the wound tract. If it continues to travel in tissue, it will yaw to 90 degrees at this point, flatten, and fracture at the cannelure (the knurled circumferential groove around the middle of the bullet into which the cartridge neck is crimped). The flattened bullet nose remains in one piece and retains 60% of the original bullet weight. The 40% of the bullet behind the cannelure shatters into many fragments that can spread up to 2.75" (7 cm) radially away from the wound tract. These fragment each cut their own path through the surrounding tissue, multiply perforating it. Temporary cavitation then exerts its stretch effects on this weakened tissue, synergistically increasing the permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. Wounds in body segments thicker than 4.7" (12 cm) show greatly enlarged permanent and temporary cavities and can create stellate exit wounds of 3.5 to 4.7" (9 to 12 cm) measured form the ends opposite the skin splits.

At a velocity below 2700 f/s (823 m/s) down to 2500 f/s (762 m/s), generally around 150 to 200 meters from a 20" barrel and 100 to 150 meters from a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel, the bullet yaws, breaks at the cannelure into two large pieces, but does not fragment, reducing the wound severity.

Below 2500 f/s (762 m/s), generally beyond 200 meters from a 20" barrel, 150 meters from a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel, and at the muzzle of shorter barrels, the bullet remains generally intact and does not fracture or fragment, but does yaw and may exhibit some flattening of the base. This lack of fragmentation significantly decreases wound severity. If the bullet passes through tissue before yawing, small punctate entrance and exit wounds with little intervening tissue disruption will result. If the bullet yaws while traveling through tissue, the permanent cavity will be enlarged and disruption of those inelastic tissues susceptible to the stretch of temporary cavitation will be greatly enhanced. A small punctate entrance wound will be present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit.

The U.S. M855/Belgian SS109 62gr (4 gm) FMJ boat-tail bullet has a partial steel core surrounded by a copper jacket and a muzzle velocity from a 20" barrel of 3034 f/s (925 m/s). The behavior of this bullet is very similar to that of the 5.56x45mm M193 bullet, except the 5.56x45mm NATO M855/SS109 bullet exhibits 10% greater fragmentation than the M193 bullet and it retains the ability to reliably fragment at slightly longer ranges. The wounds created by the M193 and the M855/SS109 are nearly identical.

In testing, the 55 gr M193 FMJ exhibited minimal fragmentation and deformation after first passing through an interior wall. Conversely, the 62 gr M855 FMJ "green tip" had exactly the opposite performance when first hitting an interior wall; it exhibited significant early fragmentation, with only the steel core tip penetrating beyond 19 cm. Since all of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets fired through interior walls had significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through interior walls, stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and in crowded urban environments than 9mm, .40 S&W, or 12 ga. weapons. Please refer to the IWBA Wound Ballistics Review. 3 (4):16-28, 1998.

When fired through interior walls, the 75 gr TAP was relatively unchanged with an average 12.2 inches penetration and 47.2% fragmentation, while M855 was significantly altered showing an average of 11.5 inches of penetration and 78.4% fragmentation. The damage resulting from M855 was relatively minor, with the majority of the numerous small fragments which exited a wall stopping within the first 7 inches and only the steel core tip penetrating deeper. Since all of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets we have fired through interior walls have had significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and in crowded urban environments than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP, or 12 ga. weapons.

In our testing, none of the .223 lightweight, under 55 gr, frangible, JHP, or JSP bullets offered adequate penetration in bare gelatin. The 40 gr bullets exhibited particularly poor terminal performance. Maximum penetration was usually in the 6 to 7 inch range and the amount of damage was significantly less than caused by the heavier bullets mentioned in my first post on this subject.

In addition, sharp rifling in newer 1/7" twist barrels would occasionally cause mid-flight core-jacket separation of some 40 grain bullets; in other words, the bullets would break apart in mid-air resulting in no damage to the target. This behavior of 40 gr bullets has been verified by several other law enforcement testing agencies."

Any one want more?


Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 09:03:35 (ZULU)

I just want to inform those who care of the passing of ret Master Sgt Chris (el dwiggo) Dwiggins.

Chis passed away on Dec 24 2002 at his home at Gunsite Trg Group where he was Operations -Trg mgr.

Some of you may remember him from the 2001 SPSC match others may know him longer than me.

Chris was retired Special Forces where he served as a medic in VN and recieved a silver star and 3 purple hearts.

From the little I know of him and others that knew him for years, all have nothing but praise for him.   He will be missed.   May he rest in peace.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 12:38:15 (ZULU)

Ref: Chris Dwiggins

We are diminished.  He was a warrior and a fine man.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 13:12:00 (ZULU)

Medic Jim wrote:

"What if:

Simultaneous attacks on both coasts involving a combination of chemical and biologic agents kill say... 30,000 total over a three month period of time.  The risk of future attacks is evaluated at 90%.  A month later, another 50,000 die in similar attacks on the central states...

The FBI figures out that tacit state sponsorship exists in Yemen, Somalia, Iran, Iraq, and couple incidental states in the mid-east.

How does a civilized nation respond?  Do we allow our children to be killed en masse because we cannot isolate the killers? Where is that line in the sand that when crossed switches America from "surgical operations" to "country killing" in defense of it's own?"

Jim, I suggest you read Clancy's Excecutive Orders, if you haven't already, in which a very similar scenario is set in motion. I just finished reading it and thought Jack Ryan did the right thing( I won't ruin the ending for anyone). It's amazing that a book written 6-8 years ago can be so close to what we are dealing with today. The book started with a 747 crashing into the Congress building killing basicly everyone in the government except Vice President Jack Ryan. Then it goes into a nation state using ebola as a bio weapon in about 20 US cities as well as using sleeper cells in the US to make attacks. Very good book and worth the read.

Rob01 <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 13:36:15 (ZULU)

I knew Chris for a good number of years in SF and we coressponded regularly while he was training manager at Gunsite.  He was a good friend and will be missed.

The biggest problem with the 5.56 ammo is the steel in it.  No expansion and hence no shock.  Goes through like a needle.  Using 77gr Black Hills helped alot.  However, no matter what you use, as Gooch said, hit him early and hit him often.  Knock him to his knees and then finish the prick.

Ken - That was our arguement against the 9mm.  You get more rounds but it became standard to double up and triple up.  More rounds but less targets engaged.

Hold Hard guys.  (I suggest the head area myself)


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 14:30:52 (ZULU)


You make it down to Ft. Benning for the Sniper Comp?  Any word on how some of your sniper babies did?

Looking over the pics,, looks like the semi-auto was pretty popular.


Chris <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 14:39:31 (ZULU)

Ken M:  "Oh dear, we'll have to train the troops."

Do you really see that happening?  Only pistoleros understand the advantages of SA autos and only well trained people should carry them.  Since NATO compatibility is a big political consideration, the military is stuck with inadequate 9mm DA autos.  

CDC' <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 16:36:27 (ZULU)

Mornin' all, I hope Y'all faired well durin' the madhouse after Christmas shoppin'.  I went to a Mall with my main squeeze 'no damn near got run over by a crowd of blue haired grannies in the shoppin' bubble.

Just out of curiosity how many Texans are on this list?

Keep your powder dry, and, your flint sharp.

Jim McNabb

"Any society which suppress the Heritage of its conquered minorities, prevents their history, and denies them their symbols, has sewn the seed of its own destruction."

Sir William Wallace, 1281 AD

Jim McNabb <>
The Colony, Texas, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 16:48:09 (ZULU)

Yotebait and Kevin..

I was out shooting from 400 to 800yds last night and had put up some IPSC targets with paper plates on them. I was able to range all out to 810yds with the Leica 1200s.

 Last time my son was home his military Gieveds would not range the 700yd target we had set up. It was cloudy when he was here and sunny yesterday. I also ranged one of my steel plates 14"x14" at 739yds one out of 4 times. No other range finder including my buddies Gieveds has ranged this target.

 The range is flat for over 3/4s of a mile with nothing to bounce off of and hard to range on. I am impressed so far, hope to get my buddies Gieveds for a side by side this weekend. Will let you know if it works out.


 I tried a half grain more of powder and still getting stirging at 700 and 800yds. Right at MOA for the range with 3 shot groups using 140 AMAXs. I tried the same load with 142s and they shot much tighter 3.5"at 700 and 5.5" at 800yds with two nearly touching. I plan on reshooting tonight to make sure it wasn't a fluke deal.

 What I can't figure out is the damn thing shoots both loads into a 2" cluster at 600yds and keeps doing that!!! Why the big spread at 700 and 800yds has me pulling out what hair I have left!!

Pat <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 17:43:00 (ZULU)

Gooch and Mike Miller,

Please email me.

Most respectfully,

Mike Rock

mikerock <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 19:49:15 (ZULU)


Before you go making blanket statements on the effectiveness or lack thereof of .223/5.56 projos you need to look into some of the research that Docs Fackler and Roberts have done on wounds and wounding mechanisms.  

-EDIT- Never mind, Read Kevin's post - he said it much betterer.

Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 19:52:45 (ZULU)

<Just out of curiosity how many Texans are on this list?>

...........there's a few of us.............

Mike inTexas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 19:54:34 (ZULU)


 The M9 debate over the pro's and con's of adopting it is a good topic.  The double-tap or mozambique (thanks Lito for the definition of what that is) is the immediate solution.  I've trained pretty well on using that very technique back when I was around training dollars.  But one thing this training incorporated was "mind-set" (for lack of a better term) training.  It was all scenarios, and all crawl walk run training.  In a deliberate handgun scenario, we fired the double tap; in a near ambush or chance contact, we engaged multiple targets rapidly--double taps weren't the issue.  This was a reaction drill driven by a spent cartridge buried in our rifle magazine.  Speed, accuracy and multiple targets changed the dynamic.

 We keep going back to training...and Ken is always right--we do not fund enough training in most units.  The training I briefly mentioned above was costly; but effective.  The goal was to improve marksmanship under a variety of conditions with any weapon you might carry.  Lotsa bullets and imagination.  Through the sheer volume of range time, I felt we could assess the threat and react as needed with issue weapons.  Sometimes putting three rounds into three separate targets is preferable to putting three into one target.  The key is recognizing when to do either technique.  The cool part is the real life test is purely pass/ fail.  Still, I don't want to take it with a M9.  LOL.  Even funnier, when the M9 was a back-up ohshit weapon, I shot tons more boolits.  Now that it is my principal arm; I shoot whatever I buy on the side or I get 40 or so rounds once a year on the government.  That sucks.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 19:57:36 (ZULU)

Kevin of the Great White North,

                                I'm composing this rebutal to your rebutal (HA!) as I type it. With all due respect (seriously) I've read most of your post before on various AR-15 sites as well as Fackler's Wound Ballistic site. To me, it's the same canned stuff that's been fed to us for years. I can't believe most of it. Just one example is the erroneous statement that the M855 (SS109) bullet fragmented more than the 55gr bullet from the old M193. Not in my experience it doesn't, and I'm not telling how many live things at various ranges I've shot with both bullets. I don't shoot gelatin, and quite frankly I could care less about performance through drywall.

                                 Dr. Fackler's theories have been scoffed at by most of the Medical community, but they are not as publicity driven as Dr. Fackler. He who makes the most noise gains the most ears. As Jack O'Connor once wrote "pick your experts".

                                  The implementation of the 1/7 twist in the M16A2,A4, and M4 weapons WAS because of somebodys misdirected need for these weapons to have the ability to fire the M856 Tracer round. Its projectile is so long that it yaws in a slower twist barrel while the 62gr bullet works even better when fired in a barrel with a 1/9 twist. This 1/9 twist barrel will shoot the 55gr M193 bullet with excellent results also. Would it not be better for our infantrymen to have the ability to use both M193 AND M855 ammo interchangeably, than to have the ability to use the M856 Tracer which they were never even issued?

                                  The US version of the 62gr Nato bullet had a hollow nose with a steel core encased in lead much like the 7.62x39 Soviet round. It met the NATO penetration requirements while producing a devastating wound channel at a very broad spectrum of velocities. It was not adopted due to opposition from the Europeans so our fighting men are again making do with an inferior projectile to appease our "allies" and make it easier going for our politicians and career diplomats. It took years for our Military to get the clearance to use the M852(168SMK) for a sniper round. Why? Lawyers and politicians making military ordnance decisions!

                                   So I ask you to take the 'press release' statements that you have quoted with a grain of salt. If not, we can agree to disagree on this subject. After all, I don't want to get into a non-productive pissin' match and I strongly suspect that you don't either. I meant my rant to be informative on the method of how we equip our troops at times (for the benefit of the naive people who didn't already know). FYI, I base my statements on knowledge gained from over four years at the DOD - most at the Pentagon - and from a technical employee at Crane who I spent two combat tours with and still communicate with to this day.



Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 20:30:05 (ZULU)

The reason I was askin' 'bout the Texans on this here site is that  I thought that we might get together some time this spring or summer a Fort Worlters fer an informal shoot.  Ft. Wolters is where all the Army (maybe Marine too I ain't sure) Chopper pilots were trained for Viet Nam.  After the war the Texas State Rifle Association bought the base from Uncle Sam and turned it in to a shootin' range.  They have one that goes out to 1000yds. You have to be a member of the TSRA $20.00 (I think) and Fort Wolters $15.00 to get access to the fort if anyone is interested I'll get all of the particulars.

Jim McNabb

Jim McNabb <>
The Colony, Texas, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 20:38:54 (ZULU)


 I've been following your thread on stringing--I'm thinking I am about to learn something new once it is figured out...

On the M9 again:  There is usually an unassigned long gun everywhere I go, so I end up with both.  Unfortunately, we aren't talking M24s here--I settle for what I get.  Before I left the 82d, we went to JRTC.  I drew a M4.  I was the only officer to do so.  Guess how many officers told me, "if this was real, I'd have done the same thing..."  Yeah, it was unanimous.  The funny part here is "real" looks a lot like any other EDRE right up until the ammo crates pop their seals.  Then it is a bit late to wish for a rifle.  Train as you fight is about as simple as it gets.  I know a dead Navy LT who liked to take a knee to shoot his 203 when we did some joint shit at AP Hill.  We showed him and his platoon how to set a 550 cord knot ranging device for prone fire--but that wasn't fun to use in the rain.  I went to his funeral in CT after Panama.  His 203 shot was going to be on a M60 position.  His training wasn't up to two way live-fire scenarios, and because he wanted to kneel in the rain--his kid will never know his daddy.  I absolutely hate that shit.  

Garrison duty is a nuisance.  Training is our business, and business is about to pick up.  At least 2ID is living right.  They train their collective asses off.  This may come in handy right quick.  Those Stalinist bastadges are making some serious noise, eh?

Maybe there's two more wars on my to-do list...but after that, I am retiring.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 20:45:23 (ZULU)

Joe wrote, "Train as you fight is about as simple as it gets."

Amen brother.

Ref: .223/5.56 Lethality

I thought the business around Washington a few weeks back put some of these doubts to rest.  As Medic Jim is heard to say, "A torso hit with a .223 isn't survivable in most cases."  He's pulled the sheet over more than a few.  There ain't no such thing as a death ray (yet).  We all want light weight ammunition and rifle, controllable full auto fire, accuracy, range, penetration and immediate effect on target.  Can you have all those things in the same round?  Me thinks if we put 20" barrels back on our rifles all those things we want will improve.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 21:12:46 (ZULU)




I gotta get moving....I thought it was Thursday...damn...

Nicole is going to see the Nutcracker down in Joe U's neighborhood, and here I sit in uniform typing end of month reports!  Ooooops

Joe M outta here and on da road!!!!

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 21:32:21 (ZULU)

Alan, your right I have no intention on getting into an internet pissing contest.

You are correct on the 1:7 (for the L110 Tracer) - but there is nothing wrong with it (the 1:7).

I think we will have to respectfully disagree on the SS109 - M193.


Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, December 27, 2002, at 22:16:37 (ZULU)

I think the only way you guys are gonna get the kind of instant incapacitation from a rifle bullet of " man cartable" size is to make them from machined tungsten and coat them in cyanide. OR,, make them with some type of delayed internal explosive that’s detonated like .0002 seconds after the tip hits soft target.

Can you see either one of these products in the hands of a normal infantryman?  Both are far-fetched, insane (speaking of which, where’s Brian?) ideas.  So why not punch a lung with two or three shots and move on to the next target?


Chris <>
Well Sheeeit, 2002 season is over,,, Good new is, 2003 dates will be in next week. Look for a submission to the "Places to Shoot" on this most excellent of web sites., - Friday, December 27, 2002, at 23:17:20 (ZULU)

6.5-284 Barrel twist.

I'm considering building a 6.5-284 with a 1:8" twist.  What are your thoughts on a 1:8" versus a 1:9" twist?

I plan to use the 140-142gr bullets for the most part, but I may shoot some 120grainers as well.

Old Ironsights <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 00:14:58 (ZULU)


 Sittin' around waiting for the wife to pack up the kids for the ballet trip, figured I'd add to your discussion. (no wise-cracks about the ballet either...)

 Military planners at some point decided that inflicting wounds for casualties is a preferred technique over outright killing thy enemy.  The rationale is this would tie up their resources--guys like medicjim hustling around policing up the wounded.  Great theory if your enemy gives a rat's ass about his casualties.  Enter the suicide bomber mentality.  Now, we wound these a-holes and they just shoot back from the prone...while their buddies just press on oblivious to their dearly departed buddies.  Sun Tzu alluded to knowing your enemy.  We tend to think in terms of what we'd do in a given situation.  Typical, but stupid nonetheless.

 Pick a potential theater of operations.  In all cases, the bad guys will have ideological bents that run counter to our way of thinking.  The wounded are of no concern to these dudes.  In fact, dying ain't a bad way to go so long as you nail a few us'ns.  So inflicting wounded casualties has no real benefit; we gotta be prepared to kill them all and let Allah sort them out.  Unfortunately, the tools at hand were conceived under the "bog down the medical evac" theory.  IMHO, the bad guys that surrender are only tryin' to get an overhand throw with a grenade...and that's not wholly unlikely.  Heheh.  The mindset for fighting in A'stan ain't found in your typical Divisional unit (yet)--but SOF has it going on.  I hate to say it, but if we go two fronts, the body bags will fill Arlington about the same time we bring the Vulcans out of mothballs.  And these won't be shooting at aircraft!  Yeah, we'll win eventually.  Hell, I may even make General out of that mess.  I always said we'd need a real ass-kickin' for that to ever happen!  

I ain't so much worried about Iraq.  Even with bugs and gas-that one is pretty cut and dry.

 Korea is the one that has me worried.  If that place goes hot, it'll be hell on earth for 2ID and the 25th plus whichever MEU is nearby.  Those of you that have seen the Order of Battle for the NKPA know what I'm saying.  If the shit hits two fans, I will thank God that I'm in the desert first.  By the time I get over to the peninsula, the NKPA should have shot their basic load of shoulder SAMs.  Last I checked, they had 7K SA14 varients.  My little bird ain't got a chance in that environment.  If the missle misses, the operator could throw the launch tube at me!  Terrain is that tight.  And the same land nullifies our technologies to a large extent.  This will be a grunt's war.  All CAS will be danger close.  Ridiculously close!  That kind of fighting will be OJT--we don't train for units getting hugged by the BGs.  And the learning curve will be marked by US casualties.  We've got some talented youngsters running around who will be up to the challenge.  A few of these will be names we use for ships down the road.  Conversely, a handful of our carefully selected commanders will fold or prove grossly incompetent.  I'd be glad to see them go except for the fact that our Soldiers and Marines will pay this price.  And in the end, as we send all the warriors back to their cages, we'll continue with the personnel system that promotes the yes-men while we wonder why history had to repeat itself all over again (redundancy is cool).  

Yeah, the Korea issue is the one to sweat over.  


Heard anything about the S. Korean election fallout?  Are the punk pacifist students happy they put a dove in?  Or have they woke up to the reality of their northern neighbor yet?  We'll see how anti-US these little pups are when their university is behind enemy lines.  I've been searching for commentary on this subject, but no luck yet...maybe you could post it if you find something along these lines.

Sorry for the bandwidth hawgs; I've been dreading war over there ever since I first saw the place years ago.  I was surprised they stayed put during DS.  I suppose they had a plan if things got bogged down in Iraq--and the 100 hours made them re-think.  I do not think they'll sit it out again...anyone see it differently?

and on paranoia--is there some synchronized efforts with the axis of evil?  Iran has a secret nuke plant going hot; NK just put theirs in our face; and Iraq is playing games with the weapons of mass destruction!  Ha!  The Kurds and Iranians died of natural causes, right?  Anyone catch Kerry's BS that GW's lack of diplomatic effort caused NK to go rogue again?  Yeah, he said it.  I suppose he thinks that the October announcement that NK "has a secret nuclear weapons program" was just day one of this program?  Whatta idiot.  Who votes for these dumbasses anyway?

Rants one through seven over...

Joe M.  

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 00:30:29 (ZULU)

Old Ironsights,

DO IT!!!!  You're on track.  Go no slower than 1:8.5" twist IMHO.

Does anyone else see Wes and Pat as "Cult Leaders" ;))  Kinda like the Grandpa and Grandpa of the SC fagmag shooters.


I'm VERY interested in seeing how those 139's Lapua's work for you.  I'm going to pick up a box or two to do some testing next month also.  If they really fly like a .615,, I might make the switch.  

I think I also may try both IMR4350, shooting for 3100fps, and some H1000 to see if I can get 3000fps with a denser charge of slower powder to try and extend throat life.  As it is, with H4831SC, my powder is below the shoulder line,,, but single digit SD's are hard to pass up.

(A Tip for H4831SC users,,, Rem 9 1/2M primers.  The cups suck, but the SD's are amazing)


Chris <>
Well Sheeeit, 2002 season is over,,, Good new is, 2003 dates will be in next week. Look for a submission to the "Places to Shoot" on this most excellent of web sites., - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 00:34:44 (ZULU)

ATTENTION HAWGS and lurkers.......

New Butner Schedule is available at:

Lots of opportunities for you younguns to come and show the Bolster what you know! We ought to pick one of the matches and make it a Hawg Rondayvoo.

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 00:48:12 (ZULU)


I've been using Rem 9-1/2 and 7-1/2 in 243 and 223 for years with excellent results. They are smaller in diameter by a half thousandth or so but in the first reload and sometimes the second they fit tight enough to stay put. After that you can push 'em in by hand. :)))


edit for Bolts' idea! I'm in. Pick a date and I'll buy the beer.

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 01:00:48 (ZULU)


Flyin' a little bird in a little pink tutu ;))  I can see it now,, Undude on one side in his blonde Ghillie and blue pumps and Dirty Steve on the other in a red dress and High heels.  THAT would scare the shit out of the North Koreans!! ((Speaking of Little Birds,, you ever run into a guy named Pepin?  He was a CPT in '95,, 160TH SOAR))

The wounding theory.  

I'm with you 100%.  I say if we have the means to kill them one the first shot,, do it.  The damn Russians and Chineese ran over their shot bretheren on the way to the objectives.  What makes us think they'd be any different now?  Trouble is,, most congressional leaders,, hell post Commanders for that matter, have NO combat expierence. After our first COC at 101st,, the new CO MADE us remove all our buttpacks from our gear.  They were no longer allowed in the field but the f!ckin' Kevlar was mandated to be worn 24/7.  There's no way the guy could have EVER been on a patrol and done that to us.  Same type of guys calling the shots now,, God help us all.  

Sorry to those like you who give a shit about the troops.


youse gonna wear a barrel out this season huh??


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 01:11:22 (ZULU)

What would be required to convert a M70 in 308 to a 243 other than a Rock barrel and a trip to KC.MO. I was gonna sell it, but I think if all I gotta do is buy the barrel and have George put it together, I'll keep it. The bolt and bolt face are the same, right?


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 01:14:29 (ZULU)

Hey fellers,

1911 question here fer ya.  I'm looking at possibly a Kimber Pro-Carry HD Stainless (their commander size steel frame version, hence HD for heavy duty...God, I actually said "hence")  Anyone have any experiences with 'em?  How are the series II Kimbers?  Is the safety thingie a hiderance at all?  I assume it's better to look for the "old" style?  I also assume the Kimber Pro-Carry HD is the best commander-sized 1911 for the money right?  I've seen a couple "first generation" (no series II safety) HD Stainless for around $689, good buy?

Later guys,

Happy holidays,


Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 02:57:08 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Hope Nicole had fun at the Nutcracker. It was a nice day down here for a trip to the big city. Had to be 40 and sunny.

Not to great a day for hunting though, went out with the bow for a few hour for Whitetails then tried for some Yotes with the Stealth but no go. But it was still a good day.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 03:07:53 (ZULU)


Listed on Ebay


Item # 751449753  

Starting bid  US $1,199.00

the listing states

"This model was previously manufactured by the John Unertle Company, now defucnt. The USMC contract is now with the U.S. Optical Technologies Corporation and this is one of the rare few genuine Marine scopes on the market. This scope includes the 75 millimeter sunshade, lens covers and the honecomb diffuser and is the one every Marine Scout-Sniper has mounted on his M40 sniper rifle"

bomac <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 04:46:17 (ZULU)

Allow myself to introduce.......myself.....

Sorry, got Austin Powers on the brain.

Well!!!!  The President is sending 2 more carrier battle groups to the Gulf.  Looks like we will be lonely around here soon.

Does anyone have either of the following?

a)  A copy of "The Wind and the Lion" that I can get?  I want to use it for one of my classes over here and NO ONE has it in Japan.

b)  A link to the FBI ballistic study that claims that 5.56 has less penetration than 9mm ball.  

Goochsan out

Gooch <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 05:09:21 (ZULU)

Joe M,

      You are absolutely right about the NK issue. We pulled the billions of dollars worth of free oil that Klinton was using to appease them, so now they're rattling their nukes in hopes of getting their free oil back from us. It's gonna be a cold winter over there, they have no oil, Russia can no longer afford to give them oil for free, and they've got a bad famine going to boot!

      ROK has shown us that they no longer want our military presence in their country, so let's oblige 'em. If we start pulling our troops from the ROK we will accomplish at least two things on the positive side. We will save many American lives from the human wave attacks or the NBC bombardments coming from the North. Also, by taking this action we may persuade the North that we're serious about turning their country into radioactive glass. Who knows for sure?

      IMHO, the only chance that we have of settling this politically is if we can convince China induce NK to back off by informing them that they (China) have no intention of backing them in a nuclear war with the US! The Chinese do not have a sufficient number of long range nukes to stand toe-to-toe with us and they know it.

      My strong suggestion is to not get into a ground war with NK, for the sake of the ROK or anyone else. Taking out their reactor with a surgical air strike is a possibility, but then they'll invade the South and overwhelm our troops with their human-wave assaults. Sound like old history? If we have to get into it with them we should use the nukes that our tax dollars have been paying for, and save American lives in the process. Just my opinion......

Kevin (GWN),

            Sounds like a deal!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 05:22:50 (ZULU)

Joe M:  Infantry war against NK?  I hope we've got a better plan than that.  I haven't been keeping up with my news watch thus I have no opinion in SKs new leadership.  

The SDI stuff in AK seems to be intended to counter NKs "bee sting" strategy.  I wonder if all the peace-goofs in Seattle realize that they are being targeted by their Socialist brothers and sisters in NK.

Events have the potential of moving real fast.

"What appears to be paranoia may simply be a realistic assessment of the situation."

CDC' <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 05:36:27 (ZULU)


"Undude on one side in his blonde Ghillie and blue pumps and Dirty Steve on the other in a red dress and High heels.  THAT would scare the shit out of the North Koreans!!"

That would scare the shit outta MOST mortal men. ;-))


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 05:42:19 (ZULU)

CDC, "I wonder if all the peace-goofs in Seattle realize that they are being targeted by their Socialist brothers and sisters in NK". I don't know about your area, but here, close to SoCal, you can find many a bumpersticker stating "This is not California, we don't care how you did it there". Maybe Seattle is more in danger from their socialist brothers to the south. And I think your last statement on the 1911 is completely on track. Now if you, I, and several others get our Christmas Wish, our troops and soldiers could get enough training time and materials to give everyone the needed education.

Alan, I'm sure you know what China has obtained, and where from. You're correct, they're not a major threat to our mainland at the present. As one admiral, who's name escapes me at the present, wrote though, they will be in a decade or less. Unless GW has changed position, ROK is a line in the sand, and that's the bothersome aspect. So what is this about you and Kevin OTGWN having peaceful discussions? How can there be any piefights with this kind of attitude?

Chris, I've got it from a VERY reliable source that the Lapua 139's, while they fly very slick, lack the consistency that their Sierra counterparts have. I too was tempted to try them, but after being told that, I've basically written them off. If the guy shoots them made and holds high master this long with this caliber, I figure he knows what he's talking about. But this isn't a request for Andy's Dad to knock off the experimentation, I'd still like to know. Who knows, maybe something has changed on the Lapua QC. On your statement of requirements for instant cessation of hostile actions, I think Cooper penned it as something having to do with a projectile approximating a telephone pole, velocity aproaching the speed of light. That ought to work.

Joe, from what I've heard, you're exactly right on the wounding plan. If the brass wanted instant incapacitation, wouldn't they be running the 308 in better guise than Lake City churned out? We all know it's out there, cheap and easy to produce. Or maybe I've just read too many books on the British expedition into the Falklands.

And since M9 mag springs came up, let me ask if anyone has any real world experience to negate my book learning. From what I understand, if the spring alloy is chosen correctly, and the treatment is done properly, then the spring can be compressed basically for an unlimited time without going bad. Not that I'm saying that the M9 mag springs were done that way, just wanting to know. From what I learned, wear on metal of the spring, as abrasion from dirt, etc, is the culprit. Isn't that why you hear stories about fully loaded 1911 mags from WWII feeding just fine? I change springs just like everyone else, but I'm wondering just how much is preventative, and how much is really maintenance.

Rick, good to hear from you again, don't be a stranger! With your real world experience with the caliber, what you say has more gusto with me than anything else I could read. Including Fackler. The main problem with you is, even though what you say I take at full value, you just flat don't say enough. So post early and post often LOL

And last question of the night, how cold did it really have to get before the 1:14 fail with the 55s? If it was a simple problem of a drop in velocity due to the temperature affects on the powder, wouldn't that be solved with the present powder technology?

Sorry for being a bandwidth hog, hope everyone sleeps well tonight.

Jaeger <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 06:23:58 (ZULU)

Gooch I will email it to you.

Alan, sounds good

Hey if you get in a scap in NK you might want to think about letting Canadians into your army easier...

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 07:53:14 (ZULU)

Thieves nab data on service members,1299,DRMN_21_1634652,00.html

Dean Miller <>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 08:20:48 (ZULU)


Been working me arse off at extra jobs. Every weekend, late nights for two months now. Kid needs braces.

It's 2:45 am and here I sit.

Will be in Ft. Myers FLA. teaching a Waterborne class to some SWAT cats Jan. 6-10.

Any of you boys from that area ?

GOOCH: That 9mm/5.56 info is usually only available on Dept./Gov letterhead w/ a promise not to copy the CD / share same. The head guy at the ballistic lab (Quantico) is a friend. Holler at me offline and I'll hook you two up. Yes, Lord .... he's a jarhead.

Hope everyone had a great holiday.

Your friend,

The chick magnet  

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 08:40:20 (ZULU)

Rich S.,

Get ya a Thunder Ranch 45 from Les Baer an don't look back. always has a few for less than retail. If accuracy and reliability are priorities. By all means, if it's a back up. I wouldn't leave home without it. If it's a B/U hit me by email.

I may be surprised, but I don't think anyone in Congress has the balls or the knowledge to know when or if to use our nuclear capabilities. If we dealt with Korea quickly and surely the whole mideast thing would straighten out post haste. If we just take out their reactor, we've just broken their finger. Don't we need to cut off the head of the snake?


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 10:38:11 (ZULU)


Yep, I've heard that the TR Baer's are sweeeet.  However, they're a bit pricey.  I thought I might use some of the "Christmas cheer" and get a commander sized 1911, and the only one that really appeals to me is the Kimber Pro-Carry HD stainless.  I had a bare bones 1991A1 Colt commander a few years back, but traded it for a ful-sized Springfield "loaded" about 5 years ago (smartest gun trade I ever made).  I really have a hankerin' for a commander size piece.  Or I might take the money and send out the Springfield to Jim Garthwaite or Ted Yost (or insert 'smith's name here).  I've also heard that the new Ed Brown Kobra is a really nice 1911 as well.  And yes, of course the Valtro.



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 14:22:01 (ZULU)

Brian insane:

I sent you an E-mail no attachments.


TonyM <>
FL, US of A!!!! - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 16:22:46 (ZULU)


  A relative just inherited a Ruger Mini 30 and needs some help. I need to know bore/groove dia and ammo prefs(not junk) and info on whether USA mags for this rifle are worth having. He just wants to get it going and then store it.

  I hope all are well and kids are still on the Christmas high :)

  Gotta prepare for another court engagement in Jan...  wish the USMC or Army would take 16 yr olds!! Kids going to get into real trouble before long :(



Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA USA USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 18:01:02 (ZULU)

Bill, the Ruger mini 30 is designed around a 308 diameter bullet. This said, they take 311's well too. On non-junk ammo, I don't know. That's all I use in that caliber, milsurp. As far as mags go, USA is junk, but is worth having for some things. When you need shims, for instance, you've got material to cut them out of. They're good as wheel chocks too. As for using them as magazines, my experience is they're almost completely useless. Good luck on finding good mags for it.

Jaeger <>
- Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 18:50:19 (ZULU)


    On the Mini 30 magazines - the good news is that factory NIB Ruger hi-cap pre-ban mags are still available. I see them in SGN and GL quite often from places like CDNN and KY Imports to name two. The bad news is that last time I looked they were running about $200@ . I know that LE can get newly mfd. mags for the old price, but then you have to turn 'em in when you leave the job.


     I'm skating on thin ice here, all of the info that I'm about to relay to you is coming strictly from memory. I've misplaced the printed literature on this subject, but here goes. If you're considering a used Baer 1911 you should research this info. I seem to remember a problem with the Baer guns as supplied to the FBI (HRT and special assignment?) having to do with frames cracking. I've no idea as to specific models or ser. no. ranges. Perhaps someone with ties to Quantico might be able to help out? My sincere apologies in advance to Les Baer & Co. if I am mistaken, but I don't think that my CRS disease has progressed to CRAFT yet!

Ground war in NK? Unthinkable IMHO, especially at this point in time. This naive student of world affairs believes that NK is trying to take advantage of our involvement in the Mid-East and our reluctance to engage in a two-theater war. A preemptive full nuclear holocaust in NK just might give the Red Chinese and the Radical Islamists reason to re-think their global strategies where the US and allies are concerned. It's like one of those "Pay me now, or pay me later" TV commercials. Just think of it as preventive maintenence. Taking a series of Rabies shots in the gut beats the hell out of contracting full-blown Rabies, doesn't it? We should forget about the little pin-pricks and use the largest BFH that we've got.

Warmonger, baby killer, and Yankee Air Pirate over,


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 20:09:59 (ZULU)

Just got my American Legion magazine. On the cover U S Marines during a live fire drill. I am able to see five pistoles, two are Barettas. Two look to be parka.finish 1911A1 clones and one seems to be a s.s. clone. For the life of me I don't see a Glock anywere.

Don't these Marines know they are in deep dodo. Should we not pony up some cash to equip.our boys with the very best. We owe it to our troops when we send them in harms way to see that they are not wanting for the best. Should not all our people have TupperWare

                   old vet

South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 21:05:17 (ZULU)

'lito - incoming, Re: question.  N/A.


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 21:35:09 (ZULU)

I'm just an old retarded Diesel sub sailor so I don't know much about the 'ground-pounder' ways of war, BUT...  I am/would be some what hesitant to cut loose with the 'Mushrooms', even on NK or China, for fear of starting a new 'trend.'

I have absolutely NO qualms about burying them in shrapnel from 'conventional' toys, nor would I hesitate if they threw the first mushroom.  I just think that if we start tossing the 'toad-stools' around that several of the smaller turds (NK, China, Iran, Iraq, etc., etc.) might get together to 'bring the bully down...'

Being a diesel boat sailor, we couldn't stay down 'forever' and the nuke boats have to come in now and again fer some grub...  I kinda remember a movie called, "On the Beach..."


(edited fer spellin')

Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Saturday, December 28, 2002, at 21:48:52 (ZULU)

Larry P  Thanks for giving me some hope that there is a voice of reason somewhere in the forest.  All the recent talk about nuking rest of the world has me thinking I should move.


rod hansen <>
Following it all from inside the DC beltway- Ground Zero, - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 02:04:07 (ZULU)

Rod and Larry - What, you don't want to nuke them until they glow? :-)

Larry - Yes I remember on that movie quite well and the time frame form whence it came.  I know a few others here that know the time frame as well.

John - Tupperware, I don't think so.

Cutting off the head of the snake - Remember, someone with power must be able to say I surrender.  Without that someone, you have a war with anarchy and that is unwinable without EXTREME measures.  Those measures have a tendency to alienate.  This creates more terrorism that can't be called off by a headless snake.  No, you make the snake understand that it is not cost effective to continue in his errant ways.  The head then says, "ok I quit".

Gooch - Never mind just saw In Sain's reply to you.  As he states there are caveats attached to the study and accompaning disk.  Good study and go through channels to get the whole ball of wax.

Jaeger - Thank you for the kind words.  I try to post here when I have something to add.  Alot of times by the time I see the discussion or question, it has been answered already by some old fart like 'Lito, Yote Bait, Undude, gooch, Pat, etc.  I can tell you that the terrain and "other considerations" is causing a resurgence in semi auto, 7.62mm battle rifles that should make a few of the guys proud.

Oh dear, NOT THE BLOND GHILLIE AGAIN!!!  AARRRRGH saw it several years ago and am just now adjusting to normalcy!

Bomac - Unless you are buying for the collectors reasons, then I would not buy the scope.  Nice old technolgy but old.  Better scopes out there and a bunch are cheaper, some are more expensive.  All are of newer technology.

Bolt - Am trying to get to Butner this year for several matches just to humble myself as is required many times in a life time.  Keeps the head on right and makes me practice more deligently.  :-)

Kevin - Don't forget that the shooter around Washington, and any shooters not in the military do not use ball.  It is the ball ammo that really sucks and the penetrator just whizs through.  Yep picking at the scab.  :-)

Chris - Had a course running during the comp and did not get to send anyone.  Plus, they did not send us an invitation.  It is my undestanding that the observer with an AR10 whipped butt.  I can believe it quite well.  

Well enough tonight, off to bed and sleep.

Hold hard guys.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 02:59:28 (ZULU)


  Sniper 2 Movie just started on Cinemax



Eduardo Cotto <>
Bay City, Mi., - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 03:07:48 (ZULU)

Mike Rock, email sent.,

HOGs need SITREP, I do not have Cinemax. Did they really use my slings in the movie?


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 04:51:22 (ZULU)

Steve Dickerson:

The 96 Beretta is just fine, but being a police turn-in, I'd have a concern of it being shot out or just plain abused.  

I have about 20,000+ rounds through mine after 6 years and it is showing no signs of any problems.

Hank <>
- Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 06:13:03 (ZULU)

Hank, I would think more abuse which would be obvious than shot a bunch. Most officers don't shoot as much as I do.

Les Baer TR pistols. I have a Premier II that I have shot over 30K rounds through it with out problems. These were mostly cast loads but the number or rounds is still rather high. It should be same frame design as the TR. If I found a used one I would buy it quick at a good price. I would still buy it at a fair price.

Not to start pistol wars but Im gunna shoot my G22 all most exclusively this season. Bar sto barrel will be here Monday and Hiennie sights will be ordered soon. Im tring to make the thing have some personallity. Can't swing a Caspian damascus slide yet.

I got the red dress and heels ready for deployment to NK if needed. Blonde wig too. Mike you ready with the blonde G-suit?

Chuck, wont go to the range on Tuesday. Maybe on Friday.

Mayhem, did you ever get my e mail?  I was skiing in Idaho when you were in town.I hope your stay was productive here in SA. Send an email next time before coming in and I will make sure we can get a way and out on the 500 yrd range.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 06:40:52 (ZULU)

Right guys, bare with me, long post comming up, just to give the rest of the world an insight into the current legislation madness that is currently coming into force with the new "Waffengesetz" (gun/weapon laws)here in Germany. It ain't getting any easier to live here and it sure ain't funny.

In the Federal Republic of Germany, gun owners and the general public must all abide by the German Weapons Laws, or Waffengesetz. A political commity of "expert law makers"was set up to re-define laws to date and to come up with additions and updates to the existing law.

What the "Fathers of the new laws" have taken upon them selves to undertake becomes -boggling at least. The commity where given the following guide lines to adhere too, "The new laws must be: Fair. More Overseable. More Understandable and Practical to Apply". Taking an insight into the new laws, it becomes clear, that despite months off effort and millions of Euroes of investment creating the new laws, the commity have failed miserably in thier given task.

Administering the new laws, and more importantly, trying to abide by the new laws has become no easy task.Many harmless objects , found in the homes of Gun Owners and Non-Gunowners alike have been branded as dangerouse weapons and as such either been banned totaly or restricted.Simply haveing pocession (just having one in the house or garden shed) of any one of a number of items or objects now automaticaly means you are breaking the law.

The new laws have come about due to pressure applied by a hand full of law tightening-neurotic-gun-grabbers, what has now become law seems to be a mine field of grey fog and small print.

Many harmless objects seem to have come under the spotlight of restriction. I will detail a few examples:

Butterfly knives and throwing stars, yes we have all seen the Bruce Lee and Ninja films, and just because a few misguided youths in the slums of some of the larger cities like to show off or brag with these objects, they have now been totaly banned ( now that wouldn't be the same criminal element of youths that belong to gangs, are often foriegn, and belong behind bars in a youth detention centre would it? the fact that due to prison overcrowding (read lack of investment) a youth has to commit a crime 5 times before he/she stands a chance of qualifying for a dry place to sleep and 3 square meals a day, (strange that the ranks of society are filled with criminals due to the care/rehabilitation in the community idea?)

That such "cutting instruments"hardly ever show up in criminal statistics seems to have been overlooked, Also overlooked seems to be the fact that Urban Gang Menbers don't have much time to pay a lot of attention to the Weapons Laws, because mostly they are to busy avoiding the current drug and theft laws.. ????

Also forbidden are the belt cutting knives, so often used by accident and emergency crews, this also means that the crash kits, (containing belt cutter and glass breaking hammer) sold by many Auto accessories stores are now also banned. Knives where the blade is at an angle to the handle or grip, such as the game skinner type of knives ( i personaly own.. ooops.. did own, one of these and use it often for dressing out and skinning deer and pigs) That these are in wide use withing the leather-fur and meat industries and are irreplacable seems to be irrelevant (or perhaps not?) to the law makers. You'd think the new law would clearly define exactly what a weapon is wouldn't you, well it does ( sort of) A Weapon is": Any object that is designed to defeate the defence capabilities of a another living creature. In addition however, the law makers have included, any thing and everything that can be use in such a manner as the above mentioned definition of a weapon, which, ladies and gemtlemen means anything you can pick up and hurt anyone else with, from a ballpoint pen to a fax machine and beyond.

Many DIY and Garden tools are also restricted, eg, any object from which a gaseouse flame longer than 20cm can be produced is now restricted in ownership( over 18yrs of age), storable under lock and key in an appropriate safe, and banned in a public place. So the bunsen type gas burners used for welding/ soldering, tarring, and burning off of weeds cannot now be used in a public place and you have to keep them in your gun safe next to your M24 and you Purdey shot gun !!! ( and even possession of a can of hair spray and a lighter at the same time makes you a criminal !!!) what about potting knives, pruning knives, hell even 6"nails...

Toys .... ( Paragraph 3 section 2 point 1).

deals with toy weapons, the defenition is, any object designed for play, where a projectile is launced or fired from a barrel, The restriction limit here applies to any toy weapon, firing or launching a projectile which achieves more than 0.08 joules of energy ( don't ask me what that is in ftlbs, but i bet you can sneeze with more energy), this makes such toys as the old favorite cowboy pistol, with the cork tied to the triggerguard, the plastic dart firing pistol, you know the one, where you lick the sucker and it will stick to the fridge door, spud guns and even the Playmobile cannon, from the Napoleonic play set, with the spring loaded ball firing mechanism, all are now restricted items, They must have an "F" (for free over 18 years of age) either engraved of molded onto a prominent part of the toy, or ( as is the case with the millions of these toys sold to date) they have to be registered on a gun licence !!!!

The issue survival knife, issued to thousands of german soldiers and reservists is now a restricted weapon, and has to be kept in the Armoury along side his HK G3, instead of on his callout kit at home.

Pepper spray, World widely recognised as one of the best non lethal personal defence methods, up to now, only available for use against animals ( you had to argue the point as to if a drug crazed rapist was classed as an animal of a human!!) is .. as of April 03 totaly banned from possession or useage. The reason given is that it does not have a German TUV ( Technical Test and Research Foundation) seal of approval, to achieve this seal of approval the pepper spray would have to be tested and proved to work within the TUV laboratories, of course, testing chemicals on animals is totaly forbidden in Germany, so the spray will never recieve a seal of approval, and is such now about to become illegal and unobtainable... Try telling that to your 18 year old daughter who has to walk home from the disco at 03.00 in the morning...

Ammunition: certain types of shot ammunition have been banned ( 22 Lr and 6mm Flobert) due to the fear that they could be shot out of a blank firing (or gas) pistol, ( you know the ones, they have the hardened steel projection sticking out into the cast barrel to prevent the shooting of a bullet through it), the fact that legaly registered gun owners have been using both calibers to shoot pests such as rats and magpies for years is irrelavant, and that possession of live ammunition without a licence or permit has been illegal for years seems also irrelevant. Just possessing ammunition of this type now is illegal period.even if you have a damn gun licence for it.

The facts are that the new laws have created a foggy minefield full of booby traps for the unsuspecting law abiding citizen and have done nothing what-so-ever to improve or simplify existing laws and have done absolutely nothing to combat criminal activity.

The sad fact is that there is a potential for every unsuspecting house wife who owns a carving knife, to become a criminal. Worse is the fact that for an offence under one of the new ridiculouse laws, a legal gun owner risks withdrawal of his/her gun licence , hunting licence and hunting rights.

I haven't read into the laws yet far enough to gather what they actualy mean as far as real gun ownership is concerned, but judging by the appaling incompetent blundering of what i have read so far, it won't be pretty.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 09:58:24 (ZULU)

Peter L...

Time to move!


"Sniper 2"...

S-U-C-K-E-D big time!!

The first one (with all it's faults) was 10 times better.



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 11:11:13 (ZULU)

Its my wedding anniversary today.....

I never realised that my wedding vows would end up being vows of poverty and celibacy.

Bisley Tiger <>
I'm going back to my village, its missing this particular idiot, - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 13:59:23 (ZULU)

Pete L

Come to sunny Florida and work on your tan! We have Cape Canaveral and I'm sure we could find a job there for a spaceship driver of your caliber. I am talking to a guy on another site and he claims to have a private 1200yd range near there. By the way it is -2C here now.


TonyM <>
FL, US of A!!!!!! - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 14:22:06 (ZULU)

I was interested if anyone has a listing of the "major" manufacturers of M40A? type rifles.  The ones that come to mind are.

Iron Brigade Armory

Texas Brigade Armory

GA Precision

others in class seem to be

NorCal Precision


Any others?

BTW Have a Happy and safe New Year


Pat <>
ID, - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 14:29:51 (ZULU)

Pete L.

Move, Quickly. NASA is hiring. You are multi lingual, right?

Rick B.,... Snakehead

As usual, I wasn't clear enough in rambling and used a poor choice of words. I wasn't refering to eliminating leadership in particular. More like, take the fight out of 'em quickly so they surrender. Rather than half-assed attempts to force compliance. I think Alan summed up my feelings on the matter better'n I did.


I'll check into it. Approx. how many rounds was it taking to cause this problem? Let me know if you find any info. The serial # in question is under 0150.

Larry and Rod,

I can't help but wonder which method would cost the most U.S. lives, both military and civilian, here and abroad.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 14:50:24 (ZULU)

Tony.. Florida...pigs? deer? John, I saw the Spacon jobs at NASA advertised, we where only just discussing about going to the US a few minutes ago, i said that if i wasn't married with kids I'd be trying to get hitched to the first female US service person who would have me, ( so what if she was ugly, they go on exercises and detachments too don't they!), i'd be shopping in the commisary and on my way state side just as soon as i could pack up all my hunting gear..

ah...a man who has no dreams is a man with out a heart....

I've got to wait a few years more, untill the kids have grown up, then its sell the house (might have it finnished by then too) and up and away.

I was talking to an old army mate of mine on the phone the other day, he was over in the states at some world pistol championship, met an American chick and got married, they are in the process of selling up all they own in the UK and going state side,, i'm more than a little jealouse..

Didn't get much hunting done over Christmas, woke up at 03.00 on the 25th with an absolute stinking cold/flu, spent the rest of the week indoors watching repeats and playing on the playstation, for breaks checking the used adds for a jeep and getting irate about this dumb ass waffen gesetz, about the only sensible thing is the standardisation of means of securing firearms, ie, the gun safe security standards regulations, the rest is all bo...ocks.

I've got my home pc back on line too,

Chris, tell Ellen she can mail Anke again.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 15:04:48 (ZULU)

Pete L.

It'll always be somethin.... MOVE!


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 15:10:31 (ZULU)


I'll let Elen know.  If you really wanna come to the states,, fly into Cuba and take a boat over.  They can't ship you back if you make it to the beach man.  Just make DAMN sure it's Cuba and not Haiti,, though you could meet Finger for lunch ;))


Too bad you guys couldn't get down that way.  Looking over the COF and the tasks,, it was one hellava comp,, but I guess after teaching this stuff day in and day out,, it'd kinda be like going to work on yer day off.(which you already do, don't ya)

Wonder where the Master at Large (aka. Sinister Dave) has been. Hope all is well mang.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 15:32:08 (ZULU)

Game time!

You have 2,000 rounds of ammo available to carry/resupply from. You have to pick one caliber to take on an actual military sniper type aliens invading mission. You are the shooter. Which would you choose; 6.5x284, 308, 30/06, 7 mag, 300 mag.?

You have 2,000 rounds of ammo available to carry/resupply from. You have to pick one caliber to take on an actual military type aliens invading mission. You are the spotter. Which would you choose; 223, 308?

You have 2,000 rounds of ammo available to carry/resupply from. You have to pick one caliber to take on an actual LEO sniper type aliens invading mission. Which would you choose; 223, 6.5x284, 308, 30/06, 7 mag, 300 mag.?

You have 2,000 rounds of ammo available to carry/resupply from. You have to pick one caliber to take on an F-class 1,000 yard match. Which would you choose; 6.5x284, 308, 30/06, 7 mag, 300 mag.?

You have 2,000 rounds of ammo available to carry/resupply from. You have to pick one caliber to take on an NRA service rifle match. Which would you choose; 223, 308?

Am I bored this morning or what? Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 15:44:13 (ZULU)


#1 - 308win, the fagmag and winmag would be cooked at about 1200 or less (Though for 1 and 2 shot engagements,, they may go to 2000 rounds but I'm trying hard to keep this brief)

#2 - 223rem, the extra weight of the 308 will effect dd'ing out of the AO and 223 is good to 400 yards IMHO

#3 - 308win, to keep the dog assed lawyers off my back

#4 - 6.5x284win, to win and continue to win until the barrel shits the bed,, but what a season that'd be

#5 - 223rem, the AR15 is the dominant force in SR now, and to hold out hope for the 168SMK's at 600 while dismissing the recoil factor in rabid fire is counter productive

Just the ramblings of a hobbiest, worth every bit of nothing. ((;


editted:  I missed "carry/re-supply"  so I'd go with 308 for a spotter round to keep things common.

Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 16:22:13 (ZULU)

Bolt - .308, .308, .308, etc.



Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 16:28:13 (ZULU)


You forgot to mention what bullet weights I had to choose from, it might make the difference in my choice....NOT!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 17:50:26 (ZULU)

Pete - Gun Laws:

What's the saying; If common sense was so common how come more people don't have it.

Those that seem to get elected or are appointed to write the laws just don't have one ounce of common sense or can even think logically.  They forget that there are already laws on the books that deal with those who assault, rob, steal or kill others.  They have somehow lost sight of the fact it doesn't matter what tool they choose to commit their crime, the laws were written to deal with the criminal and not his tools.  Today, they now want to punish the tools for existing in the first place and simple slap the criminal on the wrist and let him go till he finds another tool that they (the law makers) can punish.

We (those that frequent this site and those like it) know that the criminal element is a very small percentage of the population.  We also know that we don't need more laws to deal with the criminals.  But what I see as our downfall is that we want our freedoms and don't want to be saddled with the burdon of ousting the idiots that keep passing more laws against possession of objects.  Objects that cannot break a law because they like the child or mentally ill they can't distinguish the difference between right and wrong.  Hell they can't do anything except what we use them for.

Criminals used to be stoned for the crimes they commited and some say that those were barbaric times.  I think it is more barbaric to release those criminals back into the law bidding populace to find additional victims.

The lawmakers have forgotten the K.I.S.S. principle but hopefully and with some gentle knudging to remind them maybe we can return to simpler times and happier lives!

Damn I forgot, if it wasn't for those terrible objects they wouldn't have commited their crimes!!!!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 18:30:07 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger, Unfortunately your words are right on the money!

Pat in Idaho, before you leap, talk to folks that have actually received and shot rifles from the builders that you mention. Who is actually making the rifle? What parts are they using? Do any of their rifles get used by the "real deal" folks? Feel free to email me and I will send you some pictures of a couple of the rifles that I have from GA Precision and  NorCal.

Michael <>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 18:36:14 (ZULU)

Sniper rifle:  280AI, in  pre-64 style M70 style action.  Dakota arms would be good.  26" barrels, or 23" with suppressor.  Two rifles, one working gun, that I zeroed, confirmed out to 1200 and let sit, and then one gun to practice with.

Spotter rifle:  5.56x45 20" flattoped, medium heavy barrel AR, with full auto select and rail mounted M203, not that stupid barrel slimming bracket crap.  If this 6.8mm round goes anywhere, do that instead.  Same gun, same set-up, different(better) caliber.

Back up gun for sniper:  M4A1, basic model, with rail.  Comp M2, PEQ-2, maybe PVS-14.  No other crap.

LEO?  Don't know, never done.  For me?  I'd like 338-06 AI with bonded Swift Sirroccos(yeah, have to get Swift to make the bullet. Supply/demand, pretty simple).  Nothing says GTF out the car, like a 250gn bullet at 2550fps.  Glass?  Who cares about glass?  Head shot, body shot, all the same to me.  Good OPS can on it with a 20" barrel and you're golden.  Watch your angles on shoot throughs(like you should anyways) and it's not an issue.  

SR?  .223, hands down.  No other choice.  

Nukes and NK's:  OK, lets look at this long term objective.  FWIW, I've been to Peace Park(Hiroshima), and I've seen the real world results of nukes.  The fact of the matter is that the US is almost certainly going to get nuked someday.  The NK's have them(most likely), the Iraqis are working hard, the Pakis have them and so do the Indians.  The Russians have(had) tens of thousands of them, and they are currently having a hard time finding quality people to watch them.  So long term, somebody, somewhere is going to get a nuke into the CONUS someday.  And unlike Crimson Jihad, it ain't going to be wasted on a demonstration shot.  So, with that in mind, are we going to let the NK's develop nukes futher?  If we cut them off, cold turkey, on food and oil, then won't last out this winter.  Not and have a country left.  So the time grows short to make the call.  Do we Osirak them?  Do we ignore them?  Do we buckle under like Clintoon?  These are the questions.

My solution is to dump the problem on SK, pull our troops out from Seoul and the other abbatoirs in waitng, move them south in the country, dug into the S side of some mountain down around Taegu, and wait to counterattack after it goes up.  Unless the Nk's test their devices, they don't KNOW that they'll work in a small package.  That took the US several tests and tens of billions of dollars of work over a dozen years.  So the Taepo-Dongs are pretty much out for nuclear attacks on Oki or Japan.  They don't have enough throw weight for anything serious.  Maybe some VX, to make life suck for a little while on Sasebo, MCAS Iwakuni, Kadena or Futenma(which we recently turned over the Japs IIRC)   My bet is that they are building something about 3K-5K lbs for use on Seoul via a Scud varient.  Should go maybe 50kt max.  Make a mess out of Seoul, which is why we don't want to be there.  Maybe one more to the DMZ area for a breakthrough weapon and that's their bolt.

I don't think the Chinese will support them.  The Chinese will not mess up their deal with the US, in order to back an insane dictator of a dead end nation.  So no Chinese div's coming down from Manchuria, like last time.  The NK's have 3/4 of their forces with 50km of the DMZ.  Makes it a really attractive target for area weapons.  S/F....Ken M          

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 19:00:58 (ZULU)

jc, I've seen Dirty Steve in his dress and heels.  Frankly, I didn't think he looked all that bad.  Of course, I WAS in the Navy......

The only time we get a little put off is when he forgets to take off the CS red lipstick before coming to work.  Oh well, it's a new millennium.....

Bolt, .308, .308, .308, .308, .223.  The itty-bitty round is half the cost to shoot.....and it's still good for basic marksmanship training for when you step up to the real calibers.  And it is good out to 400 yds in a pinch.  Yup. I'm bored too.  Guess I'll go back to "Patriot Games and watch Jack Ryan kill BG's, then play with grandkids for a while.  How did Clancy know all this stuff way back then?  I had to swear an oath and sign my name in baby seal blood not to talk about the things I then see on the movies...whassup with that?

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 19:09:00 (ZULU)


    For Service Rifle matches - the .223 every time!

    Probably the .308 for all of the rest.

    I'd want the spotters ammo to match that of the sniper!

Pete L,

     Do it ASAP, before our borders get shut as tight as a straight mans sphincter at a gay bar;-) We need more people like you now!


     I'll try to find the bulletin on the FBI guns. It was a while  back, but I'll let you know if I do. Can anyone get ahold of Bach Melick to ask him? He's a Feeb, isn't he?


      I didn't notice any of your slings being used in that POS. If they were using them you should deny it. You don't need any guilt by association!


       A great source for M40-style rifles is Terry Cross @ KMW. I have an M40A1 that he built for me, and I'm very satisfied with the stick, and Terrys customer service. He shoots what he builds in Tac competitions all over, and he wins a lot. or telephone (318)748-8732. A few others on this board shoot his rifles too. Just a personal aside here - if you're thinking about having an M40 built, do some research, use the SC archives or do a name search. There's one on your list that has earned some awful complaints on this site.

NK, Islamic terrorists, and Nukes,

                                 When I got home from SEA and my hitch was up a shrink told me that I was thoroughly dehumanized. I knew that, and the trouble , for some of us, is that they make you this way but they don't know how to reverse it. I'm not whining about it. I sleep very soundly, thank you. I 'll never change my mind. I'd rather see a million enemies incinerated by nukes than see just one of our fighting men die in that Kim-Chi stinking hell hole called Korea, or that Camel-dung and flea-infested place called Iraq. And I'd personally pickle-off an entire BUFF's payload of GBU-32s at every civilian man, woman, and child in Baghdad before I'd want to witness a repeat of 9/11 on our shores!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 19:12:39 (ZULU)

Joe M and you other active military types--

What's the general thought on China's involvement should SHTF in NK?

I know they'll supply weapons at least, but do you think we're facing open war with them?


Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 19:18:20 (ZULU)

"Sniper II" even worse than "Sniper"?  That's hard to imagine.  "Sniper" rated with "The Conquerer" as the worst movie ever made.  For those of you too young to remember, "The Conquerer" starred John Wayne as Ghengis Khan.  

Crush your enemies, Pilgrim.

China won't send ground forces to support NK against us.  That's not China's goal.  They want Taiwan.  If we are otherwise occupied, we may not be able to honor our commitment to the Taiwanese.

The Chinese character for "crisis" is the same as the character for "opportunity".  You can be sure that those evil bastards in Beijing are thinking in these terms.

Events may move very far very fast.  Anything can happen and it can happen anywhere.  Outcomes are not predictable.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 19:55:13 (ZULU)

Man ,I can't get a bite on the issue on GLOCK's .To bad, love it when you guys go about what piece to carry. :

ALAN: Thank you . Your words only touch on the way I view the scum that waste the very air they breathe. Any man who could stand by and see his own people suffer the way the NK and IRAQ military has must be made to know the same pain. That pain should rain down on these suckers at the hands of the worlds fineness fighting men. Only not over there, but from here. Send them the their greatest wish , nukes made in the U.S.of A. If them would let me push the red button, I would be willing to face my maker. And if I must, the pay price so that my family and my country are still here long after the rags and dinks are dust.

               old vet

to old to run but not to old to shoot  

South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 21:44:17 (ZULU)

John De Reno:  I have "rags" and "dinks" in my family and find that language offensive.  

CDC' <>
- Sunday, December 29, 2002, at 23:26:00 (ZULU)

Thanks all.  I forgot Terry Cross, shouldn't have.  I got some items from him in the past and the quality of his work was top notch.  I have not handled any of his firearms.  I am cooresponding with some board members and will put the list back up.  I was just going for a listing for reference as to resources if someone should be looking to order a M40A?.  If anyone has additional sources please pass them on and I will list them as well.  A review, if anyone has handled/shot a sample of each, would be nice in the Hot Tips & Cold Shots section.

Take Care


Pat <>
Idaho, - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 00:15:25 (ZULU)

I can not wait to see how the 223 WSSM can be loaded with heavier bullets. I wonder if it compares to the 22 PPC. It may be a really kool toy. 6mm may be better but we can wild cat later if they don't market it.

Sniper II, I need to see it. Can not believe it could be worse as the first one.

Pete L. If NASA is hiring you need to come over. Texas aint real good for hunting but Losyana is near by. And The western states are near by.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 00:56:17 (ZULU)

Well now that I have a bit more time.....

Sniper 2, if it was even 10 times better then Sniper then it still sucks.  The only redeeming factor would be Undude slings!  :-)

Peter - Sounds like all of our nuts went to your country to spread the wealth.  Hate to say it but you can keep them.  Hope you can control the gun control freaks.  These morons have never undertood criminal control and only work on the gut level of weapons are bad.  Try to get them to actually defend their position and they start on the "Do you condon the killing of innocents?"  This always shuts up the weak minded and they feel vindicated.  I hope that someone of power gets arrested under these laws.  It is the only way to get them erradicated.  Best if it is one of the law makers with their paring knife bared.

B. Tiger - Happy anniversary!  I am wondering if that was the phone call I missed today?

John - No problem, I was making a general observation that some seem to forget at times.  They want ot hit and take out the leadership when that is actually the thing you do not want to do unless you have a successer in the wings.

Bolt - To better answer your game,

1. .308, has the barrel life, accuracy and energy for most shots taken at normal engagement ranges.  The .223 would be light in the draws for longer shots, 6.5 would kill hte barrel befroe 2000 rounds were up and normal engagement ranges do not need that round, 30.06 is an ineffecient round for most sniper weighted rounds.  More powder for the same velocity.  7mm has the same problems as 6.5.  300 Win Mag ahs barrel issues and recoil issues.  Especially if engaging in a target rich environment with rapidly changing shoot angles.  

2. .308, same reasons and the trace is easier to see on the .308 then the .223.  The wind call is easier at longer ranges.  

3.  .308 again, same reasons and that the LEA could have shots that require a longer range then the .223 would shoot comfortably with a magazineable round.  The 80 gr will not go in the magazine thus you have a single shot weapon.  Again barrel life becomes a problem as does blast signature in some situations.

4. .308 if I am to shoot all the 2000 rounds, or 6.5 necked into a 7mm WSM case just to throw the world into a spin.  :-)  

and last but not least

5. .223 for cross the course because I am becoming a wimp when it comes to recoil and rapid fires.  OK guys bust my chops, I know it is coming.

One last, Nukes being tossed have a tendency to spiral out of control by almost all estimates.  China will not defend NK but will take Taiwan as soon as the US can not, due to circumstances, aid in its defense.  Remember that the NK Army is actully bigger then the US army at this time.  However that is what I call a target rich environment.

OK, done for now and will hang back for in coming.

Hold Hard guys.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 02:11:13 (ZULU)

CDC and other antique shooters,;))

I've been pondering the purchase of a Kimber full size 1911 for some time.  I've read here that there may be some "issues" with the newer ones, along the lines of cast parts. etc.  I generally buy from individuals,, so if I run across a "deal" is there something in particular I should look for or to stay away from.

Is there any special models I should look for, maybe something great running around out there that I should keep my eyes open for?

I'm a Glock/Sig man for the most part and I have zero expierence with 1911's, but after picking up AceHighs bad ass "green antique" I've had a hankerin' for an antique myself.  It doesn't need to be the best,, or a $2000 rebuild,, but something trustworthy as far as functionality is concerned, as it'll be carried on occasion.

Any info ya'll might pass along would be most appreciated.

Kevin(Andy's Dad),

My father picked me up a lbs of H4350 and a lbs RL22 for Christmas.  I have WLR, 210M, Rem 9 1/2M's and CCI-BR2's on hand. Brass will be Lapua.  I should have a new fagmag by mid January (30" barrel) and a set back 26" rock tube about the same time to test with.  Once I get some data I'll forward it on if you're interested.  Have you decided what you're going to start with for development yet?

NOTE:  for all those out there concerned about my bitching regarding  the barrel going south at roughly 700 rounds,,, the rifles lowest score was a 189, and it still shoots in the low 190 at 1000 consistently.  That's a Master score for those that don't know.  That's better than most can do with a 308, myself included, so please don't take my rambling as more than what it really is.  You should also realize that I shoot an average of 30 round in 22 minutes, each match, so my barrel wear may not be indicitive of a normal target shooter.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 02:23:21 (ZULU)

Mike Rock check your comp you have been infected with a viris.  I got a message from you with the subject: meeting time.  My Norton picked it up.

Good luck with the removal!!

Jim McNabb

Jim McNabb <>
The colony, Texas, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 03:02:58 (ZULU)

John & Alan

>>>Larry and Rod,I can't help but wonder which method would cost the most U.S. lives, both military and civilian, here and abroad.<<<

Are we talking about initially, or over the long haul...?  If several of the 'lesser' nations ganged together and attacked us (to bring the bully down), WE could end up as a 'third world nation' if the battle/war was continued for a long period of time.

I have never killed anyone - in the heat of battle or otherwise - nor have I ever been shot at (that I know of), but I don't think I would have any qualms about punching the 'red button' on our attackers pre-emptively either, or after the fact, certainly.  I would just like a little more information (be on the 'inside track' so to speak) before I start wiping out millions of people (although the World is getting VERY densely populated) and perhaps initiating a 'retaliation.'

Submarine Sailors (like pilots) do not see the faces of their 'victims/opponents' therefore the war is less 'personal.'


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 03:25:22 (ZULU)

To All Fellow Shooters:

I've come to some of you in the past for your professional advice and once again I need it.  Here's the short end of gun shop was burglarized and I lost 18 guns including my sniper rig (2000 dollars worth for my personal rifle).  So when the insurance check comes, it's a toss up between George's work at GA Precison or the work of Tactical Ordnance (Rick) for those of you in the know.  As much as I'd hate to see you pick sides, how about some recommendations?  Experience with the products would help.  Some of the differences include Pac Nor vs. Mike Rock or Schneider barrel, H-S Precision or McMillan A2 stock, different crown cutting methods, etc.  Whichever I go with will be based on a Rem700 BDL action.  Prices between the two companies are comprable.  I am particularly intersted in your imput on the barrels, stocks, and overall quality of the above mentioned companies'.  Please feel free to directly email me as these days I don't make it to the roster as often  as I'd like.  Thanks in advance as your opinions would have the most bearing of anyone's advice that I will recieve.

Thanks again......I'm looking forward to hearing from all of you.


Echo <>
Indiana, US of A - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 05:08:57 (ZULU)

re: M40 pattern rifle mfgr

Add Armament Technology to your list

(I know the owner, it's a local company)

Rod Regier <>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 05:33:02 (ZULU)


     You served on a Diesel boat, right? So you're aware of the rigorous testing that a submariner must undergo so they can see if you can even begin to handle that kind of job. The son of a close friend is serving on a boomer as a Weapons Officer and because of the fact that he might have to "push the button", the additional testing and training required for that job boggles the mind.

     Much of it is very similar to that given to the SAC crews that flew the BUFFS (with full nuclear payload) to strategic points borderind Soviet airspace and flew a racetrack pattern just waiting for THE WORD. The guys sitting at the bottom of missle silos out in the fields of Nebraska got the same testing and indoctrination. We got some of the same in the old TAC, some at Eglin, most at Nellis.

     First they want to find out if you posess the personality type that's needed for the mission. You need to be willing and able to push the button, pickle off the payload, or whatever, upon orders without any hesitation. If you're gonna think about it, worry about consequences, or let some kind of misguided morality stop you, then you didn't belong there in the first place!

     If you pass that hurdle they start the dehumanization process. To make it short, they condition you to consider the enemy as a disgusting life form - a cockroach, spider, a slug, a horseshoe crab, whatever brings up your instinctive feelings of revulsion and desire to destroy this creature as quickly as you can. If I rippled an MER load of Mk117's and one or two found their way into a schoolyard, apartment building, or even a hospital, f**k it, the're not human down there anyway. And many times, you do get to see the results - or what they claim to be yours anyway. Almost every mission that I was fragged on up in PK 6 the French "television journalists" were more than happy to report as attacks on orphanages and broadcast it all over the world.

      For a guy like me this dehumanization stuck with me permanently to the point that when compared to the general populace here in the US I'm the sub-human, capable of destroying an entire population if I feel that it's necessary. And I'm not the only one left over from VN that still has the hangover. You can't switch it on and off like a light bulb.

      Surgical strikes, limited rules of engagement, blithering idiots from Europe and the UN. I'd never go to fight an enemy who has vowed to destroy me with one hand tied behind my back and my mommie whispering "be nice" in my ear. Do you know what happens to people that contract syphillis and refuse to get it treated immediately? The symptoms clear up and disappear, sometimes for years. Then your brain rots away and you die! Refuse to deal decisevely with NK and our Middle Eastern pals right now, and just see what happens to us in the future.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 05:41:57 (ZULU)

Rod - I agree.  Good smith, good weapon, good man.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 05:44:27 (ZULU)

Looking for help/advice/knowledge.

Remington 168  White box match vs LC 168 White box match?????

I have not shot any of the Remington 168 gr match  white box althought I have shot a lot of the LC 168 match white box.

Is there any difference.  I am familar with Lot to Lot differences Etc just haven't run across the Remington Stuff until now.

Must be living a sheltered life. ;-(

Semper Fi

bomac <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 07:49:53 (ZULU)

As a point of interest, after reading a great review of Armament Technologies M24 rifle, I emailed them with my needs.  I recieved an email from their president saying that due to current military contracts, they were not doing business with private parties at this time.  Anyone know anything about this?


Echo <>
Indiana, US of A - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 08:03:21 (ZULU)

Mike Rock... I emailed you as requested did you get it?

RE: 5.56mm penetration.  Interesting shit.  I think the reason I was so curious was that I had been getting the readers digest version...  Fact is that the lack of penetration is in gel AFTER passing through a wall.  I had been hearing that the lack of penetration was in the wall itself.  

Now that THAT has been cleared up!!!

Sniper 2????  Is that a sequel to the Tom Berrenger flick????  Tell me huh huh huh????  I loved that movie.  Really learned a lot from it.  For example I didnt know that filing down the skin on your index finger marries it to the trigger.  I tried it and it works!!!!  

Hey!  They are selling the Yokohama bay bridge over here.  I can get you a geat deal!!!!  Contact me off of here and I'll hook ya'll up.


Gooch <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 08:19:27 (ZULU)

Hey, hope y'all had a good Christmas and may the worst of the new year be better than the best of the past.To all those goin into harms way,God speed,watch your six.

Pete,the weapon control vermin are only alive cause its illegal to kill them.I live in hope that one day sanity will prevail and us normal dudes can get things back on track.My little old 10/22 is a "special weapon",I have to have a stronger steel box to store it in than the 223 or 6.5 or 30/30,yet I can have enough explosives(25 tonne) of amonium nitrate,100m detcord,2kg powergel,100 detonators, in my shed,to blow up damn near anything,WTF?????.



Gavan Willis <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 08:35:48 (ZULU)

Byron, well said mate, i agree with it all, you mind if i send that to Tony Blair and Gerhard Schroeder??

Alan, i'd love to go states side, but i've got kids to think about and aged parents (both inlaw here and mine in the UK) and and and, but one day... I often have wished that I had transferred to the Canadian Army, i was a nats wisker away from that once a few years ago, but as i understand it,  the Canuk law makers ain't much better than the idiots over here.

Just been to Frankfurt airport to take a colleague to catch a flight, a few Bundesgrenzschutz officials stood around in little groups with smg's but apart from that, security is still as lapse as it ever was.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 09:19:02 (ZULU)

Morning Fellas,

Got my first virus that has suppossedly come from someone I know.  This time it was poor old Marco, our cloggy friend.  So if anyone has both our addresses take a look at your PC, just in case.  Can someone who knows how to identify the real sender post VERY simple instructions of how to get the I.D. (I'm not real PC literate).  However, I have right clicked on the message header in the inbox and selected properties from the menu and managed to get an address that says is the sender, .  Is this the real perp, or another trick?  Ah-ha, just took another look at it.  I selected details from the properties menu and the above address was under 'From' and 'Return path'.  I also noticed an ISP address under 'Received from', is this what I am looking for?

Any help is always appreciated.

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 10:23:12 (ZULU)

Ref: 6.5-.284 start

Chris, I'm going to start off with IMR-4350 (47 grains)/Rem 9 1/2/Lapua Brass/139 grain Lapua bullets.  I'm still waiting for the rifle.  It should be here soon.  My Loopie is on order but won't be built until sometime in January.  It's cold and snowy here now and all I'll end up doing is quick velocity and group shooting until the weather comes around.

Happy new year everyone.  I can't get my radiac to zero I sure hope I won't need it this year.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 11:57:36 (ZULU)


Can you do that in your basement?


Does that bridge come with a maintenance contract?

Yote Bait,

Where are ya man?

Echo, you have mail, N/A.


I was referring to intially, outta the gate, first action kinda thing.


That "special runnin around out there" to keep your eyes open for is Hooters Airline stews. Which "green antique" of mine are you talkin 'bout? :))

Rick B.

I asked you a question awhile back about ruck sacks, you were busy, don't sweat it, the Australian or Austrian? Which was the one Carlos referred to as bein the most popular? There were some available on CheaperNdirt web site, Austrian I believe.


308 across the board w/.223 for targets. See Rick B.s' explanation, I concur.

Pat, T. Cross is in fact a gentleman and a scholar. Wonder if he has a PHD like M. Rock?

John DeReno,

You probably won't get a response on that topic.

Pete L.

I was pullin your chain. When it's time, you'll know and you're always welcome.

edited to add a few things.


John H. <>
Indy, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 12:03:50 (ZULU)

Ref: Basement Range

John, I suppose I could do the chronographing in the basement but I've only got fify feet to work with down there so the zero part is best done at the range (backyard).  Andy's mom gets a little upset when I shoot "heavy stuff" down stairs.  Inspite of all the concrete it gets loud upstairs.  As part of my long term plan I want to put in a sunroom/breeze-way for Andy's mom and at the same time put in a 100 yard tunnel (It's like a magic trick.  While she's watching what the left hand is doing....voila!).  It's doable I've just got to get it moved up the priority list after my daughter finishes college.

Ref: Barrel Life

I had a short e-mail exchange with a guy that claimed to have a barrel treatment that would, in his words, "let the .300 Winmag shooters throw away their round count books."  It is some kind of gas hardening process that staves off barrel ware.  I think it was called the "waite" process.  I don't have the old mail anymore and lost track.  I know it's a pipe dream but it sure would be nice if it were true.  Have any of you hawgs heard of this or know more about it?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 12:52:25 (ZULU)

Well, no piggies in the woods last night, they where staying in the thickets out of the damn wind and rain, i wish winter would arrive and we could have some snow.

Finger,you have mail from me, I may have the right guy for that armourer job down your way, is the vacancy still open?


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 13:05:18 (ZULU)

Kenton Industries custom elevation dial for my Mark IV M3.

Everything that I expected and delivery was quick.

The dial I requested was M3 dial with 1 MOA hash marks, and every 5 MOA marked starting with 0 and ending with 55.  

My current BDC dials only had two lock screws, the Kenton dial comes with three, plus an allen wrench.  

Click on my name to see a pic.  

Kenton Industries

PH: 805.531.0476




Michael Roberts <>
MidMO, MO, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 14:28:49 (ZULU)

I'm getting viruses from too.  This e-mail didn't say it was from Marco.  Some of y'all look in your header files and see if this is the source of your viruses.  

Who and where is this guy?

CDC' <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 15:09:15 (ZULU)


  I got some good numbers with RL-22 in my 6.5x284. I was shooting 3100+ with a 26" barrel. The accuracy was good too. You may want to check out RL-25 also.

Pat <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 15:21:44 (ZULU)


I too exchanged a couple mails with them.  If you order a rifle in advance they'll add it to the run. Almost $4900, which included the rifle, a fitted pelican case and cleaning supplies.  The process was likened to case hardening, and it sounds a bit too good to be true,, but I'd love to find out just how many 6.5x284 it would take to burn out a tube or degrade accuracy. If it really works it could revolutionize the industry.


Man,, I got three powders to test now. If I add another, I might as well have another barrel prefitted so when the load testing burns out the first tube I'll have one good to go ;))  I considered RL25 and H1000, but I'm gonna try the powders that most of the competitors are using first.  I may build my wife one to load test with. She'll not know the difference, since I load for her ;))


The green Thunder Ranch model I was messin' with at the RV park.  VERY nice.


Chris <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 15:48:36 (ZULU)

Jon and CDC'

Here's the trace info on the IP address

IP Address:

Location: Pasadena (34.142N, 118.133W)




     Host Master

     1430 W. Peachtree Street, NW, Suite 400

     Atlanta, GA 30309


     Phone: (404) 815-0770




jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 16:03:14 (ZULU)

Mr Jim the Finger, you got more mail from me, this time with attachments, you can open em they are safe.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 16:42:03 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad


you have incoming, no virus.

Jaeger <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 17:04:29 (ZULU)

Alan, well said.  Having been invited to the same games you were, I know how you feel.  My job was saving lives (ARRS, or PJ's, if you will, USAF), but it might have been a matter of waxing a hundred zips in order to get to the one.  In a way, the same is applicable to the larger world situation.  To save one of MINE, either my family or another U.S. citizen from some JATWISH idiot with a bedsheet and a fanbelt on his head, I'd unleash whatever Hell needed. No qualms, no sweaty palms, and no nightmares afterwards.  If that makes me sub-human, oh well.  In the Navy, flying P-3 Orions, we routinely carried

Tomahawks and torps that were nuke capable.  The only thing that bothered me was that the platform was so slow I might not have been able to make the objective with my little gift.  Slept like a baby the whole time.  Now, to some, that might be called sub-human, but there is another term for men like that.  Warriors.  Those that accept the fact that death is part of life, and are comfortable with the fact that it comes to all people.  If you have to hasten it, that's what you are meant to do.  Sean Connery put it well in the movie "the Presidio".  We are the Dobermans of society.  When all is well, they keep us out of sight in the back yard.  When things get rough or there's a bump in the night, they let us out.  Just remember that, without us, the society we know would not exist, so don't sweat it.  Now, as a police officer, I try to be nice and polite to all I meet, and professional to even the nastiest peckerwood.  Once you cross the line, though, that's gone.  In fifteen years, only ONE person has tried to dance with me that didn't go to the hospital.  And they NEVER, EVER, do it again.  If they cross the line, kill them fast, kill them messily, and kill a lot of them.  Then let the survivors know that Hell waits for them, too, unless they toe the line.  History shows that it works.

Sorry for the rant.  And I don't know why Steve says Texas ain't great for hunting.  I ain't never had so much 'dillo in my life before I moved here.  And them Texas squirrels are gooooood eatin'.  They smell a mite before you skin 'em, and the white stripe in the pelt kinda cuts the sale price, but still, good with taters and collard greens.....

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 17:49:59 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info JC.  I have sent a message to the address you supplied.  I have also sent you an email; no attachments.

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 18:09:23 (ZULU)

Steve B.,

 What CDC said is too true.  CHICOM just loves this mess--it breeds opportunity.  The North Koreans are merely a nice buffer between civil oppression and freedom for the chinese regime.  If the North takes the south, then china would be very interested in a co-op to gain the economic prowess of the "former south."  But realistically, they don't see a snowball's chance for the NKPA taking anything of value. Direct involvement is not in their interest.  Cheerleading only if success looks good maybe. NK will only smoke the pennisula and destroy the economic outlook for decades.  So it goes to the Taiwan issue.  Can we handle three crisis' at once?  You can bet planners world wide are calculating scenarios just as we are...  

 A good question would be "what would the Chinese do if the South began to prevail...with a powerful free economy on their doorstep?"  Now that one is the great unknown mystery.  The Soviets moved in to A'stan for religous preemption...would CHICOM do so for economic reasons?  Could we stop the ROKs at the 38th if the NKPA shoots it wad and fails?  The best thing is for the north to implode.  Anything else is a mess.

Pete L,

 I have a solution to your move to the US.  I will adopt you.  As my son, I will keep your firearms in my safe.  When I figure you're ready, I'll let you shoot 'em now and then.  Meantime, I'll be burning up the's a good plan, although you may not like your allowance at first.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 18:20:02 (ZULU)

You mean there are humans outside the US?  No kidding? ;-)

Anybody have any opinion on Millet Angle-lok(weaver style) rings for a hunting rifle?  Got two sets of the nickel for Christmas, and I'm wondering what they're good for.  Now I need two stainless rifles for them to go on.  See how that logic works.

"The way of the warrior is death"  -Musashi-

If you can't handle it, don't sign up.  Simple as that.  S/F....Ken M    

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Monday, December 30, 2002, at 20:47:10 (ZULU)

The point of my original post on the subject of "country killing" was to illustrate, in my own way, the need to accept that we must be willing to kill... en masse, "innocents" included, in response to attack.  That is my belief.  To respond to an anarchist state in any other way is to invite attack.  North Korea must be made aware that the United States is not made up of pacifists and wimps. They must be made to know that we will not "turn the other cheek, not even once". This is a defensive posture.

Ken - dealing with death up close, occurring in large numbers, which includes diminishes me. I believe it would diminish you too.... this one is not black and white.  It's sorta like bee stings... a few won't kill ya, but there is a point where even a giant can be felled.  Beware, my friend.

medicjim <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 21:27:52 (ZULU)

Joe M.  I know it would be another battle ribbon for you before retirement,but NO we are NOT capable of handling "three crisis' at once.  And nobody in that funny sided building in Arlington thinks even two prolonged efforts at the same time is possible no matter what Mr Rumsfeld has to say on the subject.  With all the talk around here about looking back at history ,some of you boys need to go back and read something about these guys called Romans.  They only dominated the world for a short time so you will have to look hard to find any information,  but there might be something there to think about.  Testosterone is a good thing - sometimes, and only in limited amounts.  

Going into the hide...



rod hansen <>
- Monday, December 30, 2002, at 23:04:18 (ZULU)


Some South Koreans believe the North's nuclear capability will "protect the whole penninsula"  --are the campuses that well infiltrated????  Maybe pulling up stakes and lettin' the ROKs go it alone ain't such a bad idea.  Let me look in my Kia's or Hyundais parked there.  I guess I won't miss them too much after all.

here's a link to some "man on the (Seoul) streets" quotes:

Dehumanizing?  As an aspect of the job?  Or is this process called pragmatic critical thought?  Are we mourning the loss of innocence or are we just a bunch of troubled old farts living regrets?

This is one seriously complex psycho-babble topic.  But the bottom line is you really need to believe in your cause up front.  Killing one to save ten (brothers in arms or innocents) is good math; providing you know the equation ahead of time.  Figuring it out after the fact causes fat paychecks for shrinks.  If we spend time sorting out those who understand reality from those who wanna "what if" things for our Nuke program--why not have some training on dealing with killing before hand for the average joe? A bit of history, current events, and cross-cultural comparissons would go a long way to understanding the threat.  Our troops deserve that much ahead of time.

In my mind, it's pretty cut and dried--the BGs would kill americans, happily, of any age, race, religion or duty description.  They'll target Joe Shmoe who is out laboring away his life to feed his family...or they'd kill his family.  Unless they are curtailed, they could kill my family too.  Not hard at all to come to grips with the necessary actions.  Same goes for any potential BG's.  Certain nations with nukes are scary thoughts indeed.  France, though not much of a friend, ain't too scary even with nukes.  Iraq?  Iran? North Korea? Assholes who refer to my country as the great satan--are you kidding me?  Hell yes that scares me.  One errant nuke on the west coast and my kids' life expectancy drops to 40 or so years with cancer being the leading cause of death?  I won't have any problems trying to prevent that.  None.  If packing a nuke in will prevent the loss of innocent lives or my fellow soldiers, I'd happily strap on the ADM myself.  If a gun run with the .50 can do the same, well, here I come.  As for dehumanizing--it goes to the other way.  Sitting on yer ass wishing for peace on earth is dehumanizing...not acting to prevent BG's from killing just one innocent is dehumanizing.  By my standards--the protestors must be zombies!  

Ya know, it gets far more complicated.  Basic nature of man, motivation and rewards, economic systems and philosophies...all on killing another human being.  I deleted much of that dissertation.  I have spent a few brain cells on this topic a few years ago, and came to grips.  My wife may say I am hardened deep down, but I disagree.  I have a job because I want it; and there are times it must be done.  I am a huge fan of live and let live--and I take exception to those who want to disrupt that.  I only wish we took a little more time and care in preparing our young troops for killing institutionally.  Of course, we'd have to come to grips with the concept as an institution first; and that is not PC.  Collateral damage indeed...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, December 31, 2002, at 00:03:12 (ZULU)

Joe M:  I distrust "man on the street" interviews.  The sample isn't random and there is every opportunity for the reporter or editor to interview until the desired response is heard. &