Sniper Country Duty Roster

December 2002

gone stuff

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:21:27 (ZULU)

Boltster,

http://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-ProductSpec?CMBK1

This knife with a BMF style handle & endcap would be the cats meow. I love the BMF w/o sawteeth.

Away back when (1985?) I begged and pleaded for a Gerber rep to make a solid back version.

Them Rinaldis are NICE, but like CDC & youse said Grip is CRITICAL.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:28:30 (ZULU)

Bill- At the risk of drawing fire, how much do you shoot your tupperware vs nayhting else? I will bow to experience anytime, most of youse have more experience than me. But that's the point here, right experience and repetition?

That's why i don't shoot anything but my Sigs, it's what I carry and I need to have it in my muscle memory not a 1911, the greatest handgun ever invented by mankind:) But the point is, if you shot your 1911's or H&K's like your Glock wouldn't they be just as fast? Is it so much a design thing or an operator thing?

But like Kevin Mussack said, pick one, shoot it (a lot) and make damn sure you have the mindset.

Steve Burris

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 00:32:43 (ZULU)

PeteR,

Have an original gurka kukri in WWII canvas sheath similar to this one:

http://users.accesscomm.ca/tholter/east12.htm

AWESOME weapons if used properly. Of course, you can take your own leg off if not careful!

This is on my list when I become wealthly like YoteBait!

http://www.carlsengallery.com/pastauc/10-16-1999/samsword.htm

Sorry folks, forgot this was a guns and stuff place, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 01:29:17 (ZULU)

I'm surprised at you guys... you'd think this would be common knowledge here....

#1 rule of knife fighting... bring a good medic, it is not uncommon for the victor to die from his wounds..

ASC #2 is gonna require pistolero skills... damn, suddenly my handicap just got real big... I can't hit the side of a barn... I'm slow too. No formal training probably has a lot to do with it... One of many downsides to living in NJ.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:04:43 (ZULU)

Hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving ! Time to do some push-ups now.

I was shooting my M1A Standard SA today, I'm thinking about selling this weapon for a G.A. Precision - Maybe for the "Rock" !!!

If I spend the money to get this M1A to shoot better groups, I could purchase a REAL GUN from G.A. Precision :>) !!!!!!!!!!!

I know this has been asked before or maybe not? Could anyone explain in detail - what is a 5R barrel? --- Pros and Cons?

Thanks for your time,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:04:51 (ZULU)

I am considering ordering a second barrel for my Rock River Arms AR-15. Can anyone share with me their experience with chrome lined bores? Has anyone noticed a decrease in expected accuracy or, greater barrel life with a chrome lined bore? Does anyone feel a chrome lined bore is worth the extra cost over the standard chrome moly barrel? Any input you would be able to offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Mike Diorio <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 02:41:54 (ZULU)

Hmmm?

The saga of Doc Holliday and Johnny Ringo? Sorry BRogers, couldn't resist.....I'm enjoying the discussion. For autos I've got some 1911s and a Sig 228, but some day I'd like to try a Glock 21, just to see what they're all about. I'd be interested in what holsters you have found that hold up to the usage you describe.

Had a Cold Steel Trailmaster with Carbon V blade, and they have a certain charm, plus they're sharp enough to shave hair off your arm. Sold it. Too big to haul around. If I want to chop I'll use an axe. For venison work a Master Hunter with Carbon V is the ticket. Short and sharp and holds up well to field dressing chores. I've been eyeing the Benchmade Nimravus as a nice fixed blade carry knife, also.

Bolt, don't bother kicking him in the hand....easy to miss. When he sticks his hand in pocket, just nail him low center between the front jean pockets. This presumes he was sorta in the attack mode, and not just reaching for his car keys. Ha!

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Country, MN, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 03:52:13 (ZULU)

The trailmasters with the straight black handles are awkward to haul around. Custom makers curve their knives in such a way as to make them much easier to carry. With the classic (I forget the name) sheaths, they aren't bad at all.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 04:05:08 (ZULU)

BRogers, I think if I saw one of my guys do your drill and put the weapon back in the holster that fast6 I would kick his ass around the block. Nice game if you want to practice how to die.You practice as you fight. You do your drill a bunch of times and then it gets real. You fire one round into body armor, holster and watch as he shoots you. Time to step out and learn how to fight with a pistol. Might as well place your empties in a coffee can between drills, Same end result Bad Training! As to who is fastest. Hell I only shoot as fast as I can make the hit, but when you center punch my armor and reholster you will say crap when I stop firing/hitting.LMAO

I would love to see what happens when you holster a glock that fast and hit the trigger on the strap. Let me guess no strap to keep a big mean guy from atking it from you, or it dropping when you fast rope/rappel, move around. Its gunfight at the OK?

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 04:27:40 (ZULU)

Bill & CDC, I hate to disagree with you on the value of "hip" shooting. I was taught at our Academy by Bill McClenan, who now teaches full time at Thunder Ranch and did part time there when I was an LE pup, that it does have its place. It is not true hip shooting you fire with the gun at the side of your chest, about nipple hieght. It is used when fighting gets very personnel. "Bad Breath" distance is a good analogy I guess. When raising the pistol to a normal stance would result in having the gun with in reach of the Suspect. You maybe fighting him off, or holding his gun hand while drawing your own. In this case a normal stance is out of the question and this technique BETTER BE PRACTICED! A person should try as many shooting techniques as posssible in order to improve your life saving skills. I practice with a handgun from powder burn distance to 100 yds or more with my guns. Not that distance with the tupperware though. I have even practiced out to 200yds with my 44 getting over 50% hits on a 200 yds service rifle rapair center (open sights). I like being an all around shooter not just fast or combat distance but a genuine good shot. Like I have said, I aint great with a hand gun but I am practiced. So I say practice practice practice. I know one guy who shoots the pistol normally rotates it 90 degrees shoots rotates it another 90 and shoots, til it has been rotated 360 degrees. Upside down he uses his pinky.

Knives, oh so pistol country must step aside for knife country. haha

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 05:28:23 (ZULU)

Gents,

Hmmm, just when I think we MAY have reached maturity we start with the "pistol wars" thing, again.

YOUR CHOICE! If'n it fits you, is reliable, and is in a suitable defensive caliber you're set.

Being an old fart, I've carried the 1911 platform for over 25 years. Nothing fits my hand better. Next in line is the Browning Hi-Power 9mm or .40 S & W and the Glocks. Glocks got no soul, but they work.

HK's work, but I AM NOT a fan.

Let's not forget our K and L frame S & W's, either.

Personally, I like rifles better. Prefering to conduct "business" at a distance.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 10:38:30 (ZULU)

On mindset..

A friend came by one evening to borrow a small caliber pistol. Supposedly to teach his girlfriend to defend herself and newborn from bad-assed exhubby. Small caliber first and move up to a .40 Sig which he was to loan her when she felt ready. We talked and had a beer while discussing the finer points of self defense. I asked him if he was Positive she would Shoot her attacker? He threw down his beer and said "everbody ain't a Rambo like you, man!" At which point he left. Never spoke to him again. I think Clint was right.

"Anyone can understand shooting to protect themselves. You give me five minutes and I’ll make anyone on this planet mad enough to shoot me. The real question is, will they have that much time in a fight? You need to make that decision before you start to fight-only your life depends on it." Clint Smith

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 13:50:53 (ZULU)

Alan, there is some one teaching that Israeli technique here in the Fatherland, but they will only teach it to women,I was encouraging my misses to go for it. I always tell every body I've got a blackbelt in martial arts... "gun-fu" Ref the knife fighting carry on, people that use knives are plain nasty, I once had occasion to be in the close vicinity of a knife wielding asshole, it wasn't pretty.

Ken M. Let me explain the way it works with the Armourers in the Brit Army, maybe some of you guys will find it interesting.Armourer trade training takes place at the School Of Electronic and Mechanical Engineering. The Basic Armourer course is about 1 year long, Students start by learning basic engineering skills like fitting and machining, also incorporated is some blacksmithing/sheet metal work and working with plastics-figerglass etc and every tradesman in the Army learns Battle Dammage repair techniques. Then they move on to the history of firearms and firearms developement, learn all the technical responsibilities of the armourer and all about the army paper shuffleing system/spare parts requesition, workshop practices and procedures etc, Then general principles of firearms and types of actions, ammunition and ballistics, learn all about terms and abbreviations associated with firearms. Then move on to learn fault finding and repair general issue weapons/ firearms and support weapons and all associated equipments, to manufacturers standards.Basicaly learning to build weapons from a pile of parts, machining and fitting and manufacturing parts where nessecary, everything from bayonets, through pistols assault rifles, mortars, machineguns, riot control weapons, aircraft/vehicle mounted weapons and mountings etc. Then comes a section on things like AFV turrets, an Armourer is responsible for all the insides of the turrets on vehicles like the warrior, (we had the fox recce vehicle then) things like the electrical firing circuits, the vehicle sights and all the turret fittings from seats to smoke dischargers are the responsibility of the Regimental Armourer, as are/were all the field cooking appliances and a whole bunch of other kit including the officers mess bicycles). Then they move on to a part of the course that deals with optics/instruments and night vision eqpt. Then a section on foriegn and non issue weapons ( we worked on the Garand the M1 carbine, several H&K's, AK47 and a bunch of derivatives, M16a2, Negev,variouse foriegn machineguns and a bunch of other stuff) We then went and did a course in the Armaments wing on artillery pieces and tank mounted guns (this was for the benefit of those of us who where bieng sent to armoured regiments, to enable us to help the gun fitters) we then also covered sniper rifles (although i seem to remember that sniper rifles wheren't generally covered on the basic course buy on an extra equipment course, i think that if your particular basic had the time you did it and if time was short you had to come back later).Sevral parts of the course where manufacturer recognised or had manufacturer participation. Anyway, at the end of the course (and also at appropriate points through out the course) we where given exams, written and practical, those who passed went on to do a refresher of the basic military training and where posted to field units as a Class 3 Armourer. Depending on your grades and final test results you where either given your class 2 after 6 months or had to take a further set of tests at the local REME Field Workshop in your Military district. From arriving at your first unit as a still wet behind the ears class 3, you began to perform your duties under the supervision of the class 1's. basicaly you continued your training "on the job" returning to SEME and or other training establishments for variouse courses as the need or requirement arose( things like Milan, Browning 50cal, Turning Techniques(indepth lathe/machining course). As a class 2 you where considered capable to work with the minimum of supervision, periodicaly bieng given tasks on which you would be evaluated. anywhere between 3 and 6 years after completing the basic course you where called to attend a class 1 course (the more capable you where, the sooner you got on it). This was a refresher of the basic course, with some updates and a more indepth look at some weapons, (sniper rifles where one catagory where we went realy into depth due to the adoption of the L96A1 at the time). If you pass this course you are then considered capable of running an Armourers workshop and supervising and training tradesmen under your command. From this point on you can opt for 1 of 2 career paths, either you stay in the one trade disciplin and eventualy become an Artisan ( highest rank you can achieve is that of Staff Sergeant) or you opt to cross train as a Gun Fitter and eventualy become an Artificer.( you can reach the rank of ASM Aftificer Sergeant Major and ultimately take a commision as an Officer).

Any way, as a class 2 Armourer you are considered trained and capable enough to look after your own Infantry companies weapons and associated equipment. What tended to happen was that each inf coy would have an Armourer assigned and the rest or a Bn's weapons and equipment would be divided up between all the B'n armourer's when in camp or looked after by the HQ Coy Armourer (usualy the SSgt) when in the field. ( I always had Mortars,Sniper-Rifles,Milan and the Carl Gustav's and the AFV's (Rarden Cannon and its turret in the Fox) to repair when in base, so realy I had 2 Inf companies, Alpha and Heavey Weapons or Support Coy, I liked it that way because i got to get out and about with each section when they went on section exercises, be it Mortars, Pipes and Drums ( SF machine guns) Recce Pl, Sniper cadres, Anti Tank/Milan whatever, If I made sure i wasn't in camp much i didn't get stuck on guard much, then i got on the Bn shooting team and i was never in camp, it was great..

OK hope i haven't bored any one with my little trip down memory lane. It would interest me how the US forces organise thier repair troops, especialy weapons repair, I believe the Canadians do it along scimilar lines to us Brits, with the CREME as do the Aussies.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 15:53:21 (ZULU)

Thank you undude--nobody ever won a gun by being the first person back in ther holster. A very hard habit to break if a newby has "taught" himself this habit prior to formal combat oriented training.

on the shooting the pistol upside down manipulating the trigger with your pinky. this is not difficult. We demonstrate this to all newbys on the last day of ther firearms block from 25 yards.

curious about some of your pistol qualification courses for new people. We can talk inservice later.

Oklahoma Basic Pistol qual (every new officer must shoot a 70% to receive basic certification 1 time out of 6 chances)

3 rounds from the 3 foot line in three seconds one handed (I hate this term but basicly "hip shooting" with off gun hand touching center of chest in a defensive posture) Bad breath distance!

3 rounds 3 yard line two in chest 1 in head 3 seconds

2 rounds 5 yard line center chest 3 seconds

2 rounds 7 yard line center chest 3 seconds

2 rounds 15 yards low kneeling 4 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards low kneeling using baricade for cover only 5 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards standing week hand baricade supported 5 seconds

2 rounds 25 yards standing strong hand supported 5 seconds

2 rounds 50 yards high kneeling 8 seconds

Each stage is fired from the holsterd position interview stance.

20 round course shot on a silouett target (basicly a NRA-B27 7 ring and in) All hits in ring 5 points, softball size circle in head, must be in circle to get head shot points.

Fail to follow range tower commands shooting improper # of shots or improper position is an NQ( no qualification) regardless of score.

Instructors shoot this course in half time for the students. Hard part of this is the 15 yard line, two rounds low kneeling in 2 seconds starting from a standing interview stance- holsterd.

I am interested in what some of you guys are doing always looking to steal somthing good from whoever I can.

c ya

Jim Anderson <ocso245@hotmail.com>
OKC , OK, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 16:58:21 (ZULU)

Anyone remeber what the course of fire was for the 150 foot NRA Marksman Qualification Course ?

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 19:55:01 (ZULU)

Guys, just came back from shooting with wife and son. Son did well. Wife well, she shot the rifle George built and at 200 placed two touching and one with just a little paper between it and he other two holes. Looks like soon George may be Building another stick for the house.

<<< Just measured wifes group .70" at 200 yds..>>>>>

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 22:33:42 (ZULU)

Brogers--I never liked Glocks for nuthin.' Then I shot actually shot one...Heheh. The damned thing felt good, hit good, and pretty much ruined my irrational hatred. Doesn't mean I am selling the Para or not buying more 1911s, just that I bought into the tupperware criticisms. I can't fault the departments using them now.

Mil-LE cross training: I remember that change a few years back. I thought it was a bone-headed self-imposed expansion of Posse C. We had Feds and smatterings of New England LE out with us--and the learning was two-way. Damned fine resource just thrown away. I kinda learned about the Kenya-style techniques for bomb making from the LEOs. Nuthin' new about gas-enhanced bombs. Just ask 2d Force Recon Marines...but the TECH guys were well versed; the classified courses weren't even on that yet. Folks living near the Coleman Demo area found out what I learned from those guys. Whatta effin' boom. The cross talk knowledge is priceless. That rule needs to be lifted soon.

Blake's hunt: What terrible conditions. Winds gusting to 35 kts, steady at 20, occassionally hit Gale force (indeed--50 kts) all weekend. The deer are wherever the wind ain't--and that be somehwere I ain't too. Looks like my show-off shot will be the only meat this year. Blake is out now with his Uncle as the winds fell off to a reasonable 5-10 (I'm babysittin', like Medicjim someday). Just heard one shot off the back quarter. Maybe????? If it was Blake, his barrel just fouled again! Damn remmy. The good part of this year was just being out with my son. Watching him double check his safety at every move, copying my walk through the leaves and brush, whispering TRP data at every over watch position for hold-overs. Having him commit these to memory, tracking and picking up the high signs as well as the obvious--it was great. He has never been so serious--just wish he'd take that to school! 6 hours left in the season. Even though his tag is yet-unfilled; this has been a hunt to remember.

Ken M, The McCoy range is doable--but you just signed me on for some serious JAG liason! The LEOs and MIL guys are too easy, contractors of any sort with the Gov are easy too--but pulling civies into a match is real tricky since 9/11! Didn't say "no"--but it is a full time job for a week or two to grease it. I'm tight with the headshed--so better use me while I'm still CONUS! Email me some details of what you propose. I'll do a feasibility study (hahaha). My feasibility study consists of actually doing it. If it works, it was feasible. Screw staff work.

Nicole is bedding down her dollies all over the living room, and Raegan is watching Foxnews. Blake is in the woods bearing arms. The Mom's beat is quiet--Much to give thanks for this weekend.

Joe M.

BTW--if anyone scores some more of those BJ sandwiches, how 'bout bringing us all back one?

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:14:22 (ZULU)

>>>I was shooting my M1A Standard SA today, I'm thinking about selling this weapon for a G.A. Precision - Maybe for the "Rock" !!!

If I spend the money to get this M1A to shoot better groups, I could purchase a REAL GUN from G.A. Precision :>) !!!!!!!!!!!<<<

BearMan -

You ain't listening, dude. Your M1A Standard is doing the job it was intended for. It AIN'T a tack driver and was never meant to be one. But it does drop two-legged varmints at distance with a vengence. You're comparing APPLES with ORANGES!

New Load For The M16? -

Has anybody heard of a 6.7mm round being developed by Remington for the M16 weapons system? It supposedly uses the existing 5.56x45 case necked out for the larger bullet. Only weapon changes are new barrel, buffer and buffer spring. All else stays the same.

Master Boucher, Sinister, Undude?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:16:29 (ZULU)

When finished firing, go to the guard position. Search left and right using the guard position. If appropriate, do a tactical reload. Holster weapon. Manage magazines. Continue to march.

Do a speed reholster on my firing line, and you're finished shooting.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:21:28 (ZULU)

England has worst crime rate in world

By David Bamber, Home Affairs Correspondent

(Filed: 01/12/2002)

England and Wales have the highest crime rate among the world's leading economies, according to a new report by the United Nations.

The survey, which is likely to prove embarrassing to David Blunkett, the Home Secretary. shows that people are more likely to be mugged, burgled, robbed or assaulted here than in America, Germany, Russia, South Africa or any other of the world's 20 largest nations. Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales.

According to the comparison of international crime statistics produced by the UN's Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, England and Wales had 9,766 crimes for every 100,000 people in the year 2000. America had 8,517, South Africa 7,997, Germany 7,621 and Russia 2,022.

During the period 1998-2000, Britain went from fifth to fourth worst in the world league table. An analysis of total recorded crime figures before 1998 also suggests that England and Wales have moved sharply up the league table since Labour came to power in 1997. Crimes fell from 5.5 million in 1993 to 4.5 million in 1997. By 1999, total crimes had risen again to 5.3 million.

Last night Oliver Letwin, the shadow home secretary, said: "This does rather blow a hole in David Blunkett's claim that New Labour has crime under control. It is a damning picture."

The UN reports also shows that England and Wales are the second-worst places in the world for assaults, with 851 people assaulted per 100,000, and seventh for burglaries and car theft, with 1,579 burglaries per 100,000 population.

Criminologists believe that a note of caution needs to be introduced into analysis of the data, because of the different ways in which UN member countries record crimes.

A Home Office spokesman said that officials had not yet seen the report and so could not comment.

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/12/01/ncrime01.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/12/01/ixhome.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=189153

Surely this can't be true. The UK draconian gun laws should've made everyone safe...(and maybe it did)...for murderers, rapists, burglars, muggars and robbers.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:25:27 (ZULU)

Just got back from the sandhills. I agree with Brian, I felt kinda CS posting and leaving. I couldn't get the posts from earlier in the week so I don't know what happened. Hope I am still welcome here.

Sarge...2 things. How do you get those big mulies out of the sand. And has anyone ever actually measured how fast a Blue quail can run?

Brian, can probably help you on the knife thing some. Get with me off-line. Oh, and I've seen your Jock, that is if you are referring to the pink lacy things you dance around in.

The pistol issue became clear to me the first time I had to write a use of force report. Used to be sooo cool "as I deployed my cocked-and-locked .45 caliber COLT 1911 " then it became "I drew my glooock" (sounds like rectching). Just kidding guys. I agree...probably the most important thing is being in the mindset of actually using the thing.

Rich Johnson <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 01:32:26 (ZULU)

Steve; in answer to your question, yes, it is a design thing.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:06:57 (ZULU)

Pistol post deleted.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:52:21 (ZULU)

pistol deleted.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:06:43 (ZULU)

Moe -Easy - I know the M1A I have is a battle rifle. The point I was saying was if I trick the M1A out I will end up with a lot of money in this gun. If I still had my AR-10T I would hang with some bolt guns, ( some would say "no" - but? I would be close -Perhaps? :) ) I guess I made a mistake buying a gun that I thought I could get to shoot under 1 M.O.A. for a reasonable price. My first mistake!!! in life.......:)

He@# Moe I was really trying to get the page off of 1911 Pistols - So give me some credit for trying to change the subject, with what I guess was a stupid question.

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:58:48 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Shot my new 6 X 284 today in a Varmit Match today...

I have never shot a gun this accurate....I shot a 1.5" group at 625 yards in the warm up....On a sighter shot at 541yards. I called my sighter at a Bolt holding the Sighter Target and Nailed It.

Hit 38 of 40 targets. The wind was a real b%$@*ch. On one shot I was .5 minute right(hit), next shot 1.5 minutes left. Just missed the right edge @ 3 o'clock. Missed the other shot..9 Hits in a row at 300 yards. Out of no were I miss 2 inches to the right. The conditions were the same...I have no Idea what happened.

Anyway there I tied for second in my class...I am pretty happy for my first match...

If anyone is considering a Varmit rig, I highly recommend the 6X284...It is one flat shooting cartridge.

If anyone here is reloading this cartridge, please drop me a line, I would love to compare notes.

Cant wait to get my 300WMag back from Mike Rock...

bryan

bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:17:07 (ZULU)

Joe M, I tried three times to get an E-mail to you and it keeps bouncing. The one I sent to Moe looks like it out went OK, so it might be on your end. If your side is OK, I'll try something else from the this end. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:21:37 (ZULU)

I may be getting a nice chunk of change soon...considering the following:

HK USP Compact - .357 Sig. Either that or a HK Mark 23 tactical with a suppressor. I don't need one, but it'd be cool.

Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4 Carbine w/Aimpoint

Some very nice Leupold optics, a HS precision or Macmillan stock, a Jewelled (sp?) trigger, and a Harris bipod for my 700. Should I stick with my stock barrel? It's not a bull barrel.

I'm also considering a SPAS-12 or Benelli M1 tactical shotgun.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

Andrew T <andrewt@email.arizona.edu>
Tucson, AZ, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 04:56:44 (ZULU)

Before "Handgun Country" is laid to rest, I have another question. Has anyone here had any experience with the Springfield XD40? Good...bad? Looks like an improvement over the Glock.

Contact me offline if you wish.

On the 6.5 X .284... Shame it won't work on a REM 700 SA...or as least AS well as a LA. Is there anyway to extend the barrel life on that caliber or is that just a given? Got a 700 SA on a McMillan stock that would be a prime candidate for the next barrel changeover. Well...maybe the 260 Rem might be more betterer anyway. Which BTW, what is the barrel life on a .260?

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:00:16 (ZULU)

The following numbers were given to me by a man who I trust to tell me the truth as he understands it, but I don't trust numbers that I haven't personally verified. As of 1990, students at one of the top pistol schools had been in 220 pistol conflicts that the staff knew of. Those students won 218 and lost 2. One who lost was "Bonnie and Clyded" while at the same stop sign where he stopped every day. The BGs hid behind a hedge, then hosed down his car with squirt guns. He didn't pay attention during the Wednesday afternoon lecture. The other got into it somewhere in Western Africa with six guys. He got five, the sixth got him. This man had only taken the basic class.

This doctrine was worked out by very smart people. It is proven. It works.

It would well pay someone who worked in dangerous situations to go to one or more of the top schools, take all the training they give, then go practice a lot.

TAKE THE TRAINING!! THERE'S NO SUBSTITUTE!!

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:01:36 (ZULU)

pistol post deleted

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:25:57 (ZULU)

Rem. 700 LA Questions, if someone will be so kind as to give me some advice.

Well, went to purchase the Springfield 03 (for the action) but the pawn shop had a Rem. 700 LA .30-06 for $150 plus tax. The metal looked a lot better than the Rem. VS I am selling. Bought it.

It is a 1962 ADL, with a apx 20 inch barrel. Looks like first year of production. Has a cutout as if for stripper clips. I bought it for the action, but it did clean up OK, and may be just fine as it. It looks like a precurser to the Model 7. Short barrel. Nice adjustable trigger - a little different than the Rem VS.

But the plan was to build a heavy rifle, #7 (?) barrel. Questions: First, will the LA work with .308? Any essential mods? Any reason it will not feed and extract with a .308 barrel? Second, will the ADL work with BDL hardware and stock? Third, anything different about an early (1962) 700 long action that I should know about?

I have access to some tools, and can install a Shillen short-chambered barrel, and finish-ream it. (It's a hobby - I want to do the work myself.) But I do not want to invest in a .308 barrel if it is not going to feed well.

Anyway, it is nicer looking metal than the VS, and the price was right. Even if I do nothing to it other than scrub the barrel, it was a good deal.

Thanks for any information.

PMH

P. M. Hayden <pmhayden@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:31:29 (ZULU)

My responnce to 'yote Bate's three deleted pistol posts...

... deleted!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 06:49:41 (ZULU)

Alan: re. Norma's 6,5x55 DiamondLine FieldTarget.

The hispeed round is called 6.5x55 Norma DiamondLine Falt. It is listed on Norma's website, www.norma.cc. This round is spesially developed to give maximum ballistic performance combined with acceptable barrellife. This factory load give app. 4000 round barrellife in a hammerforged matchbarrel from Sauer or Heym. (Heym is actually a little better). The round is listed at 900ms in a 27" european barrel. That is app. 2950fps. In a tighter 24" US barrel (and Heym's new matchbarrels) it easily exceedes 3000fps. Pressure is 3200bar. After 4000 rounds in the european barrels the mv don't drop more than 30-50fps. This is very important for fieldtarget shooters (and snipers ?) as they memorize their sightsettings in clicks on the peepsights. Trajectories and windriftsettings remain identical through the entire barrellife. This factory load is easily duplicated with Norma's 130gr VLD molycoated bullet and Norma N204 powder. N204 used to be almost identical to RL19 produced by Bofors in Sweden. I don't know were RL19 is produced today.

Comparing this 6.5x55 load to a 6.5-284 is interesting. I've seen winning 1000yds handloads for the latter giving app. 3000fps with 140/142gr Sierra MatchKings. The BC. on the Norma 130gr is almost identical to the Sierra but the SD. is ofcource inferior. Still a click or 2 more windage can save a shooter a lot of money. Think 10000 rounds per season...

I think US shooters has something to learn from their European counterparts when it comes to competitive longrange shooting. In the last 10 years the latest modular rifles from Sauer and Blaser ( Sauer outsells Blaser by 100 to 1 ) and new ammo from Norma, Lapua and Raufoss has revolousionized the sport. The scores overall have been improved by a quantum leap from the days of custombuilt targetrifles. Now an unexperienced shooter can buy a new rifle, some boxes of ammo and have competitive equipment from day one. When his barrel is shot out he replaces it himself with a new one in 15min.

Btw. even JR at Border in Scotland can ship new dropin barrels for the Sauer. They list 6.5x55 and 6mmBR Norma.

TorF

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:44:24 (ZULU)

Ref: Grip Safeties

I built my house in the mid-80's when I was out of my mind over IPSC shooting. So I built an indoor 50' range as part of the basement. Sinsister has been there, can I get an "Amen"?

Anyhow, I was shooting 200 rounds a night back then trying to win stupid wooden plaques on the weekend. I picked up one of those 7" AMT longslides for a song and was in the range doing one-shot draws with it. I was already pretty well conditioned and my draws were "ironed in" for a five inch gun. The buzzer went off and I snatched the piece, drew it five inches out of the Bianci Chapman holster and started the presentation. The hitch was that two inches of slide was still in the holster. The pistol wrenched out of my hand wiping off the safety at the same time. I watched the big silver .45 pinwheel in slow motion down the range sweeping me with it's muzzle on every rotation. It clattered onto the concrete about ten feet in front of me and came to rest pointing up range.

I'm glad Mr.Browning put that grip safety into his design.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:58:20 (ZULU)

PMH,

The old 700 LA will work fine with 308 but you must be careful when you load the rifle sliding each round fully to the rear as you place them in the magazine. The Army specified a LA for the M24 with the idea that later the guns would be rebarreled to a longer cartridge (300 WM?). One advantage of the LA is that you never have a problem with reloads being too long for the magazine.

There have been a few changes over the years but the action is essentially the same as new production. Biggest concern for you would be replacement extractors. The old model was held in place by a small rivet while the new ones are a semicircular spring design. I believe either are plenty strong and if there was a problem the USMC or Army would have required a change by now. With the age of your action it might not be a bad idea to change the extractor with the barrel. You will need the old model and the rivet. By the way, I saw more than 10 old Remington 700 (M40) extractors, vintage 1968, go an estimated 40,000+ rounds before giving up. All of the actions were from the same production year and had lived through several barrels.

Marc

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 09:38:34 (ZULU)

The New Army?

I watched a piece on the History channel this AM. Army recruits 3 day TX prior to graduation. Program begins, 3 or 4 soldiers wander in 10 minutes late for initial brief. Interview soldier about the 6 mile march w/35 pound ruck, her concerns? Blisters on her feet. 1st day, 1 soldier lost-unaccounted for. Soldier said," he was dead so we left him". 1st night, perimeter security breached- latrine call took to long. It didn't get anymore reassuring. I truly respect our men and women in service but that production was an insult to anyone who serves or has served. I've seen a comparable piece on the Marine Corps gradution TX and it instilled a high level of confidence in the viewer. This was a travesty. Doesn't the Army preview these things?

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 10:03:28 (ZULU)

Brain Sain - Thanks for the compliment on my last post, I appreciate it sir.

Pete L - You are just a hunting madman...great hunt Pete !!

Knives - The thought of getting cut by a guy scares the hell out of me, more then getting shot, not that I'm looking to have either happen thank you very much. I don't know why it just does and I can't possibly explain it. Spooky stuff indeed.

Glocks - My department issues Glaock 40's and we have to carry them as our duty pistols. I hated Glocks until I started using one now I like my G22 a lot. As far a street cops go it is a very good choice...low maintenance and reliable. Now, with all that said...

1911's RULE !!!!!!

Be safe,

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, CA, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 11:30:36 (ZULU)

TorF sounds like he's on to something. On Thursday I posted a question about a switch barrel system that would have some of the same benefits. It seems to have been buried by 1911 V Glock Volume 147.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 12:58:32 (ZULU)

Chris & Wes..

When I got home from work on Wed. I had my barreled action laying in the chair with a new 260 Kreiger barrel on it!!

I of course headed out to the range with all my gear and proceeded to break it in. The first 10rds down the barrel were nice and smooth. It took two rounds to get it on the paper and then the next 3 went into a .4 cleaning between each shot. The next five went into a .3 cleaning inbetween each shot. Needless to say I was a happy camper!!

I did some load testing with lighter loads (I was using the 38grs of Varget load that was for my 22" bbl. rifle) and it seemed to like the hotter load the best. This rifle also likes the 142s better than the 140 AMAXs. Wouldn't you just know it would be that way since I have a bunch of 140 AMAXs!! I shot it at 200yds and it put 5 into a .625 group. Then I started at 300 on out to 700yds but just shot 3 shot groups for 300 on out. It stayed at .5 MOA all the way to 700yds. The 3 shot at 700yds was 2.25" but that was one of those lucky groups we all like to brag about(HA).

I am very pleased with the way the Kreiger is shooting to say the least!! I had it made with a 24" since the 22" shot out to a 1000yds with no problems.

TorF..

Hey old friend glad to see you back on and posting again!! My shooting buddy is going to build a 6.5x55 and I could use some good loading data if you would be kind enough to send me some off line. Thanks!!

Ken..

You tell'em and don't hold back on your feelings either!!!(HA)Glad your on our side!!

Marc..

We will just have to agree to disagree, You need to shoot some machine gun ammo once in a sniper rifle. I have, and it sucks!!! So I guess Iam just a "Poser" and he is one hell of a lot better shot than me to get any hits past 500yds. And by the way I "DO" shoot to 1000yds and have had over 90" of wind dialed into my 308 doing it. In fact I thought my bullets were starting to key hole because of the marks they were making on the paper. It was just the drop and angle they were coming in at that was making the marks.

My son was home this weekend and he was shooting his 308 with 180gr Match Laupas and had 2 min. of wind on his rifle at 600yds shooting 180s compared to my 1 min of angle with the 142s at 600yds. Now go figure!! Maybe this doesn't work out on your computer but that was what it was in the real world on that day, on his rifle, with a 26" Hart barrel with a 1-12 twist. Both were dead on at 100yds by the way.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 14:42:46 (ZULU)

Torf;

I shot one of the new Sig switch barrels this weekend, even during all this Cock, I mean Glock fight and nose bleeds. The rifle was a hunting weight barrel synthetic stock with a trigger mechanism that exceeds 700 Remington quality. The rifle wasn't pillar bedded but floated and fitted nicely. It would have taken some reloading to come up with the 1 MOA that the box guaranteed. It has a great recoil pad and was quite nice to shoot. Identical bases front and rear was a nice touch.

25-06 was the caliber and we didn't switch barrels but all in all it was a nice hunting rifle. Black Matte all over. IT was one of the cheaper ones that are just being felt in America.

Kevin; that "thing" happened to a IPSC opponent trying me on pepper poppers with a brand spanking new Wilson and a normal size barrel,everyone was ducking. I blessed the safety that day myself. I posted it a little while back. I'll suppress my true feelings on that problem but I've seen it manifest it'self many times with the 1911.

My appology to the senstive ones for going into the Glock thing but it was already going for 2 days if you remember right you guys were about through kicking the poor chap around when I entered it.

I'm not sure why pistols is a taboo subject with you so called Snipers. Other than the fact it's been overdone a few times here and elsewhere, it's never been settled and probably never will.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 15:02:44 (ZULU)

http://www.imageevent.com/ken6ppc/semphotos

Check out these Photos of various Barrel interiors!!

To Brush or not to Brush,what a question??

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin <sdzupin@optonline.net>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:08:38 (ZULU)

Wes..

I forgot to mention that I would be very intrested in the loading data you have on the 6.5x308s if you would be kind enough to share it. Thanks!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:23:41 (ZULU)

Sauer rifles.

To avoid confusion. The following matchtype Sauer rifles have interchangable barrels: Sig-Sauer SSG3000, Sauer 202TR, Sauer 200STR, Sauer205 Target and SSG(sniper). These rifles all have a very heavy match-type action with a match-quality trigger. The SSG3000, 202TR and 200STR have identical action and use a conventional onepiece stock and have a 5-round mag. I have not handled the new 205. It seems to have a 2-piece stock like a LeeEndfield and 10-round mag. All barrels from the Sauer 202 huntingrifle in short and medeum caliber fit the matchrifles.

All matchbarrels also fit the 200 and 202 hunting and varmintrifle in std. length action. Almost... Sauer has made the receiver on the huntingrifle a little bit to long. I think it's 2/10mm. Go figure. Remove this and all barrels are dropin. No problem with headspace. The bolt locks into the barrel. This rifle has a 2-piece stock. All different stocks interchange in the same length action.All are "dropin" an do not need any bedding.

The following sell barrels foe these rifles: Sauer, Heym and Border.

Hello Pat!

Here's a teaser. Raufoss factoryammo in 6.5x55:

1002

RA 6,5 SKAN Super Sierra

9,3g / 144 gr.

770 m/sek

1003

RA 6,5 SKAN Super Sierra

9,1g / 140 gr.

800 m/sek

1004

RA 6,5 SKAN Super Sierra

9,3g / 144 gr.

800 m/sek

1006

RA 6,5 SKAN Rekrutt Sierra

6,5g / 100 gr.

800 m/sek

Black King (Moly-Coat )

1011 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Hi.Sp. Black King 9,1g LD / 140 gr. 850 m/sek

1012 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 9,3g / 144 gr. 770 m/sek

1014 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 9,3g / 144 gr. 800 m/sek

1016 RA 6,5 Skan Rekrutt Sierra Black King 6,5g / 100 gr. 800 m/sek

1017 RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 6,9g LD / 107 gr. 950 m/sek

1018

RA 6,5 Skan Sierra Black King 6,9g LD / 107 gr. 870 m/sek

TorF

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 16:45:31 (ZULU)

MK4,

On .260 barrel life: About 40 rounds.

This remmy pipe sucks.

(it's a joke son! Laugh--at my expense though--this model seven just won't stop fouling).

Ken--try building my email into a profile, then blast away. Others have similar problems if they use the webbrowser mail function (click and blast won't workie to a mil server).

Hawgs-Official skunking on Blake's first season. He had a shot yesterday, but he mashed the trigger trying to "hurry the bullet" along. A real mover, he learned something from it. Rushing isn't fast. Other than that, we had a very good time together. Years of banging his head about "responsibility" made him understand the seriousness of loaded arms. He was "all ears" throughout the hunt. If firearms are such an attention-getter, why did we let the bed-wetters nix all the shooting teams in our schools? I can think of no better vehicle for teaching youth civil responsibility than this! Blake impressed me--I underestimated the effect of a rifle on his attitude. I suppose it comes from a healthy respect and years of brainwashing. He could recite the rules before his ABCs!

Wife had a low-speed pursuit through town. Sheriff Dept joins in. Line of cruisers 5 deep, with flankers on the parallel streets (wife was shadowing from the side). Drunk psycho decides he doesn't like the flashing lights, so he rops reverse. Lead cruiser stops, but second cop is on the radio. Lead cruiser takes simultaneous hits from perp in front and cruiser in rear at about 25 mph. Perp gets his bumper pinned under the cruiser, and goes to jail for left over turkey. This cruiser is fubar--and bent upward at the cab about 18 inches. Naturally, the doors are fused. Cop is pissed, but otherwise OK. Windows only rolled down 4 inches, so he could only bitch. If he had gotten out, he woulda beat the perp and the deputy about the head and shoulders. City versus County bickering over who pays what. Wife laughed so hard after the arrest that she dropped her doughnut! I laughed too when she relayed this, and I spilt my beer! Cops have a cool life...where else outside of the stooges can you see this stuff????

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 17:30:23 (ZULU)

Pat,

Failure to pay attention to detail will get you in trouble, hurt, or maybe dead. Since you missed it before I will repeat it again, 1000 yards is not 1000 meters. 1000 yards is 914 meters. Please note yards and meters are not the same thing. Firing at a humanoid target located 1000 meters down range using a sight setting developed for 1000 yards is a guaranteed miss regardless of the cartridge. I said they had not shot at 1000 meters. U. S. Military Posts do not have 1000 meter KD ranges. It is a very common error to misrepresent ranges substituting meters for yards and many U. S. trained snipers refer to shooting 1000 meters when they have in fact possibly shot at 1000 yards. Since you needed to tell me you have fired at 1000 yards, I HAVE shot at 1800 meters with a Remington SR8 at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1998 and this is on record. Please note I said meters. 1800 meters is 1968.48 yards. Should you need the conversion in the future, 1 meter = 1.0936 yards i.e. 100 meters = 109.36 yards.

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:05:58 (ZULU)

Joe M, seems I finally got an E-mail off in your direction. You can't cut and paste anything from the internet and send to your address. That makes for lots of typing. Oh well, life's hard all over.

Marc, my semi-local range now has a 1200yd line, so I can shoot and zero at 1097.3m and at 1000m too, should I so choose. Regardless, if someone is using one system or the other CONSISTANTLY they will have no problems. I use yards, and when I call the arty boys and use yards when I ought to use meters, it won't mean a thing because 155mm DPICM STOT missions have kill radii in the hundreds of meters(or yards;-) S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:26:07 (ZULU)

Marc,

Holy cow! All this time I thought meter was French for yard! Thanks for the heads-up on that one.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:31:39 (ZULU)

Joe: The truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

Rich: Shhhhhhhhhh ! I got Brit friends that think I just wear the pink stuff for them.

Mark D: Don't listen to Rich Johnson. He's lying Mark. You know you're the only one.

Wes: 1911, BHP, Sig220, Glock. In that order, for me personally.

USP/S&W autos bite.

Glock: AK of the pistol world, No soul but works - Both damn good descriptions.

Knives: Within about 21 ft. a guy with a blade OUT will usually beat a guy with a pistol IN. No boom, no flash. Most don't practice knife fighting anymore. Just left the mecca of old world knife fighting in the US - The Big Easy, New Orleans, LA. ... just curious.

A Bagwell Bowie starts at $ 900.00. Am aware of the new copies.

Great, great Grandpa is said to be quite possibly Jean Lafitte himself (according to some of the family stuff).

Go figure ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:35:17 (ZULU)

CDC- You have incoming with attachments.

BRogers-- I really was curious about your thoughts re: pistol training, hit me up on e-mail to avoid further sh@$ storm.

Steve

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:38:54 (ZULU)

Sain,

I'm gonna hafta challenge that often mentioned 21 foot rule. Here's the test... you get a plastic knife and setup 21 feet from me. I get a cap gun in my belt. Someone yells go and I start running away from you and you start running at me....Bet I get to shoot at you 10 times over my shoulder before you touch me with that knife.

Maybe I'm wrong, but at this moment, I'm unconvinced.

edit added for clarity - I previously established on this roster that I am a terrible shot with a pistola... the idea would be to have knife man slow up just a bit, so I could get away.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 19:43:45 (ZULU)

Jim,

We had a guy bring that up at the academy so we ran through it using paint balls guns and one of those plastic halloween knifes with the retracible blade. The problems were this:

You first had to turn to run away (letting the BG get closer), its hard to shoot accurately while running, plus you have to look back to see what you are shooting at which mean you arent watching what you about to run into and probably not able to run your fasted with your body twisted. So you may get 10 shots AT but may not get a hit atleast not a lethal one. We ran through this with everyone at the academy with the instructor being the Attacker. 19 our of 21 of us got stuck. It was determine the best approach was to shoot off the hip, side step the charging attacker and use hand to hand defense to try and block the stabbing arm of the attack. After about 5 slow motion drills. 15 of us made it without injury.

Ty Warren <Ty36608@aol.com>
Mobile, AL, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:00:01 (ZULU)

Marc..

Bully for you, but like I said we will still have to agree to disagree. By the way I do know the difference between meters and yds but for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone who isn't military uses them. I have shot to 1300yds or 1188.7344 meters with my 6.5x284.

I am not worried about mixing up yds and meters when I am shooting. I use a range finder in yds or my mil dot master in yds. When I shoot with my son and he uses his military range finder in meters I just convert it to yds.

I am not intrested in getting into a "Mines bigger than yours" contest. I like the 308s, as I said way back last week, but they can not compete with the 6.5s when it comes to shooting long range in a "Standard" round. Now if you want to talk magnums thats another story but then have you ever looked at the ballistics of a 6.5x300 Weatherby?? I rest my case and enough said.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:05:45 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Been quite a long time since posting.

Both you and Sain is correct. Old training standards talk of the 21 foot rule.(Dennis Tueller drill) If you stand still (key) and the perp comes at you w/knife while you draw to shoot him, you WILL get cut.

On your side, yes, these days, training focuses on movement toward cover and/or movement away from the threat. Most any movement is your ally. No sane person (pun) would willingly stay in a knife fight.

Now, with regard to shooting over one's shoulder while running... e-yow, way bad juju. Other than perhaps Butch Cassidy or the Sundance Kid, don't know of anyone who can pull that one off. In LE circles, we certainly do not suggest the tactic. Get distance, cover, then setup & dispatch the threat with adequate and/or necessary volumes of large diameter projectiles.

My dept does this annually with rubber knives & pistols with primer powered cotton wadded boolits. Have some of those friggin expensive simunitions pistols now. VERY good training.

Long gone are the days of John Wayne stand & shoot it out methods. Besides, If'n we didn't teach/train movement, we would be guilty of improper / inadequate training. Numerous supreme court citations to cover such stuff. Wisconsin has pretty decent LE support at the capitol. LE recruit academies even actively support & promote close quarters shots to the face of the perp and CNS shot placement focus. Fairly pregresive these days.

out

Deputy Doug <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:25:36 (ZULU)

Brian,

I'll scratch your eyes out........

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:28:50 (ZULU)

Yiiihaaa!

There's some hot posts going on round here! Like 'splaining the meter to yard conversion...hell, what's that bent metal thingy hanging under the wood on my guns for? If I hit it just right, the dang thing makes a loud noise and holes appear in my target!

Thank god for the statements of the obvious...most of us here couldn't find a range fan on a hot day...I'd say more on this subject but I have to go to S4 and pick up a box of grid squares and a can of liquid squelsh for the radios.

Anybody know where I can get some canopy lights for the night jump?

And for the former DATs, we need 3 gallons of track tension...

Marc, you owe Pat an apology for the condenscending remarks...he doesn't have a stem sticking outta his head (as in "cherry"). But thanks, I always wondered why I had two different formulas for ranging. Nyulck-nyulck...

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:35:47 (ZULU)

Guys,

a big question about a Rem 700 PSS. If someone could give me some advice, I'll be a happy bunny!

I've bought meself a new Rem 700 PSS (.223). I've used Leupold 2-piece mounts and rings to mount a cheap 3-9x40 scope (until I can get me a Leupold or S&B).

Problem is that I've used my collimator (Always given good zeros in the past), and I've had to add 25MOA of 'up' elevation from mechanical zero to boresight the rifle.

This leaves me with only 5MOA of 'up' adjustment left - not enough adjustment, as I intend to use this at 600yds.

As you are expert gunsmiths (you posses big screwdrivers and even

bigger hammers), do you have any recommendations as to what I can do with this?

I presume that its a barrel alignment problem?

Would 'blueprinting' resolve this problem?

Thanks again,

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 20:45:06 (ZULU)

Okay boys, guess I better clarify meself.

I ain't talking about going mano e mano against some other martial artist with a knife, gun or H2H. That shit rarely happens in the real world.

I am talking about using a big assed knife, on the street. Now we all know street fighting ain't the dojo.

Most street guys don't know the 21 foot rule.

Most street guys ain't gonna get 5 practice runs at it.

Most street guys ain't gonna think fast enough to run and it will be too late if they do against someone with the will and the skill.

Plus, if they do run, why not let em go ? Beats a ton of paperwork and messing up a good shirt.

Most tactical minded guys, if they are a thinking man, will have either their knife or pistol in their hand because they are savvy enough to see it coming. (Unless of course, you been drinking hurricanes and then you go for the one in the middle).

Jimbo: Get a buddy and give it a go some time. Switch weapons and positions for grins. Of course, YOU ALREADY KNOW he's going to charge with a knife. That gives you a little bit of an edge. Most turds would never see it coming 'til it was too late. You might get a shot or two off (starting from the holster) but you are probably going to get stuck.

Mark: You better have supper ready when I get home.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:06:46 (ZULU)

21 Feet and your gonna cut me with a knife? I guess I must be using a 1911 in this drill! Or you NINJa's can catch bullets in your teeth. How far can a man move in .4 seconds. You better have a head of steam up there or you'd be one dead Ninja. Maybe OJ on his best day if he was running full out but he'd be one dead..uh..quarterback. IF you can go from 0 to 10 mph in 0 seconds you'll get your first round from my glock at about 5.9 feet from where you start. The closer you get the more shots in your face.

Gee;s this place.

Oh well, Brian I'm gonna send you a picture of my Bowie. Made for me by a friend of mine. IT'll be scanned for V and in a J Peg. .

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:19:21 (ZULU)

What is it about the PSS?

What is it about the PSS that evokes such emotion? I mind my business and don't start with anyone. When shooting pistols or shotguns, other rifles, even the SKS no one has a problem, but likely as not some Dick Head will have to talk some shit when I'm shooting the PSS. Is it because it's configured as a sniper instead of a sporter? Is it the bipod? Maybe its me.

No, couldn't be.

Does a Stealth bring Dick out too, or is it just the PSS?

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:23:27 (ZULU)

Bisley Tee-eye-dubba-guh- rrrrr,

I just had a very similar problem with a model seven and loopy two piece bases. The rear sits lower on the reciever than it should, causing one's bullets to burn worms. Not good. My quickfix was to slap a scope on her that had enough elevation to get on zero. Next is either shim (probably not--the Mod 7 has very little bearing surface at the rear as is) or just go with the weaver one piece and lots of locktite (three screw mount). It appears that you hit the same problem.

Could Remmy have changed the reciever dimensions? Did Loopy screw the pooch?

Lito--what say you?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:35:29 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger - use brass shims under the rear mount to get the lelvation back. All of us use some sort of sloped base to solve the problem. Badger base and rings will solve the problem for you as the base has 20 MOA built in.

Pistol Country - The way you guys argue about pistols, sound like an arguement about the best wife/girlfriend. Their is one that's the best and she is mine!!!!!HA...... Don't rifle's take enough of your time????? CDC is right, train with what you have. I have seen just about all the named types work with training and practice. For me, a pistol is a last resort weapon. I want it to work when I need it regardless of how long it has been since a cleaning, how wet it has been for the last week in the Swamp woods, or what type of cheap ammo I have in it. I shoot Glocks because i like them and they meet my criteria batter than any other, I also have a Kimber 1911 and a Colt Combat Comander SS. I like the 1911's for carry around town where things are clean. But for field work/ Hunting sidearm/ or a combat arm the Glocks are what I choose.

Moe - From what I have heard your info is correct on the 6.7mm x 45 M-16 round. Looks like several boolet weights are being tried, from 90 to 130 grains.

My thoughts on the 6.5 thing. They are all barrel burners when pushed buy enough powder to give you magnum performance. Without the big push they are just like any other caliber. I am a big guy so I look at it as a lot of .300 WM wanna be's that are not tough enough to handle the real deal.

I will duck now and wait for the incoming.

Bruce - Got the License plate and sticker last Friday. Really neat and I appreciate your making these for us. Thanks

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:36:38 (ZULU)

B Rogers... one thing is fur sure.. 9mmP, 40 cal or .45 cannot be depended on to stop a man dead in his tracks with one round... heck, not with three. I have had 'lovely' conversations with men that collected a round in the face from any/all of the above mentioned calibers... they were darn sure capable of knifing me at the time.

I was having fun at Mr Sain's expense because I really like the guy and appreciate his humor.. we all know that teaching cops the limitations of thier issue weapon is critical to survival.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:37:35 (ZULU)

21 FOOT DEAL

You guys been watching to much tv!! When people get shot they dont just fall down and say "tell my wife I love her" and die.

I have seen a man shot 3 times with a .38, all tourso shots, standing on the corner trying to flag down the ambulance. I asked the guy when I saw him if he knew wear the guy that got shot was? He said very calmly "yea me" well alrighty then!

We arn't saying you can't get some hot lead into the bad guy. We are saying his momentum will carry his body into you unless you are doing some serious back stepin, and unless you scored a central nervous system hit high in the body you have not take his ability to fight.

If anyone pulls a knife on me they are gonna get 14 rounds of .45

really quick.

I have seen knife wounds they are real bad.

Jim Anderson <ocso245@hotmail.com>
OKC , OK, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:44:17 (ZULU)

Bill, you should go to any of the big schools and take on all comers. Do something that favors a quick draw artist - a Mozambique will do - then report back. Or you could just go undefeated through the Steel Challenge. That should be a breeze. Leatham's draw is somewhere around .65 sec. He wouldn't stand a prayer.

These pups who only THINK they know something about the subject will handicap themselves by shooting 1911s. Of course you'll beat them all easily. It won't be any contest.

I've shot against some guys who had impressive credentials and whole rooms full of trophies, but I've never seen anyone as good as you.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:47:30 (ZULU)

D. Wiede,

OK, I gotta ask---is your first name "Dick"? I mean, well, Dick Weed has a cool ring to it. And if you grew up with that moniker, you gotta be one tough bastich!!!!

But on the range thing...the M3 LR will get the conversation heading south with "serious hunters" doing their annual three shot zeros. Must be those big dangerous knobs! Now you know why I bought a farm and built my own place to shoot. I don't suffer fools very well. And the "public" ranges attract all kinds. Next time someone makes a smart-assed comment about your equipment--check out the rifle in their hands. Two to one it runs Ruger MK 77, 710, 7400 or 7600. With a Bushnell on top. Someone else pointed that out to me--and the couple of times I had negative comments--it was a 7400 and a ruger. Oooops. I am profiling. Someone call the PC police!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:51:10 (ZULU)

Medicjim,standing within 21 feet and most guys would have you before you took two steps the other way. You would look like a lamb being eaten by a lion. You have no choice but to fight that one out. I have worked with this too much to dispute what Brian said.

Now if I had to rate pistols, the 1911 is first, then the Glock, then the Sig, then who cares they are about the same.

All NG,AD's whatever you wnat to call them are shooter induced and generally a training issue. Finger goes on trigger and the weapon goes bang, as long as it has ammo and is in good working order.

Undude

MIkeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:53:11 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I have that box of grid squares and the liquid squelch you need, trade you for some chemlite batteries, a hundred feet of shore line, or a set of Humvee keys.

As far as the knife/gun thing, I might get stuck, but he WILL get shot!

Geeze, I go to Jersey for a few days for a wedding, and miss the pistol country debate, let's see, where's my S&W Model 28??????

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florida, Land of the TH-57's - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 21:58:19 (ZULU)

Kush,

Yeah...and apply four coats of hand-rubbed rotor-wash on yer frog--it'll go fasterer!

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:06:55 (ZULU)

OK, who says you will be lucky and have your assailant as far away as...hang on, let me work out the maths.... 6.40087m, ( Marc is that 21 feet?) what if the SOB is only a couple of feet away, you won't get time to draw before he has stuck you. What if you aren't allowed to carry a firearm as a means of self defence? Either you have had the mind to get some un armed combat training and can hope your reactions are quick enough, or your screwed. On 2 occasions i have been confronted with a mean son of a bitch with a knife, The first one was about to stick my Dad in the belly, Army hand to hand combat training ( and a 4ft part of a cleaning rod for a Chieftan tank) saved the day. The SOB was out cold for 4 hours and got 17 stitches, his gang mates got rid of the damn knife ( it flew out of his hand when i battered him)and carried him off to hospital. We made a retreat in doors and they knew i owned a shot gun so they didn't follow (the gun never came out of the safe)I got busted by the cops (although it was my mother that called em)because the 5 gang assholes said i had started it, Yeah right,the fact that they where out side our damn back door and had been waiting for me to come home so they could give me a kicking didn't count for a fart, Luckily(for me) one of them got into a fight a couple of weeks later and knived some one and that reflected on my situation favourably. Second time i've wrote about before, Ruskie pimp pulled a knife on me out side a video shop, this time i pulled my pistol and he shit his self. On both occasions I ( or my Dad) was very very lucky that the guy with the knife was hesitant, not quite at the stage of an all out attack(although a split second from it in case 1) Both times the situation could have gone the other way. People who use knives are nasty, and Yep the UK is a dangerouse place ( and Germany is getting there too).

I see we are back to the Yards-Meters thing, METERS ARE EASIER TO WORK OUT, ITS ALL 1's or 10's.

TorF, I've got 2 of those new Heym match barrels you mention (although one is sporter weight) they shoot REAL well.and yeah i think they make barrels for the Sauer too, I was tinkering with the idea of having a Sauer 202 with a 308, 20" moderated barrel, be just the job for the UK, Have to leave the barrel at my parents though. I will buy a 202 if this stupid 5 gun rule comes out, I would certainly want to spend some time swapping barrels back and forth and making a data book about swapping so i could gain confidence in it, but like i said before, the Sauers i have played with up to now ( all 200's and 202's) haven't varied more than a half inch or so when removing and replacing barrels. I just don't know if i would want to go into harms way with one of this type, i guess i'd have to have confidence in it first, just something in the back of my mind says give me a rifle that has the barrel screwed in tight. I guess maybe it is the Blaser R93 that has put me off switch barrel jobs, but it doesn't compare with the Sauer rifles in quality.

Brogers was that a Sig SHR 970? a mate (he's a Sgt in a Brit Tankie Regt) has one, he likes it better than the Rem 700 i sorted out for him(blaspheming git that he is, but he would insist on that damn Choate stock, heavey sucker to hunt with) I call it the poor mans Sauer 202. They are all the same company, Blaser-Sig-Sauer any way.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:07:32 (ZULU)

Dan what do you want from me? You wanna video? I've seen Leatham's he's a fine shot. Where does it say I can beat him in anything I've ever posted? My stuff ain't about metal plates and paper targets. You've not seen me, why do you assume I can't? Leathams draw and mine are like apples and oranges. He's got his hand on his gun in my video of him when he starts . But your right about one thing .65 doesn't stand a chance. Why don't you send me one if you want to prove something. Go ahead and scare the hell out of me!

Remember cowboy, you started this one! I've not bothered you.

You think I'm full of it so just go ahead and announce it. Who's feelings are you sparing. You don't have a damn thing to base it on.

You guys and your scenerios that change every five minutes.

I'm sorry I've ventured an opinion, on the some kind of 21 foot rule. Hell you can say the same thing about a damn water buffalo.

I don't need this shit. I'm gone and I won't be back.

You guys can shove this place up your ass.

Hows that for a Christmas present? Danny Boy!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:14:42 (ZULU)

Fellas ...

Didn't mean to start a war with the knife thing. Was just kickin' around the idea of getting some training that I do not have.

I got a friggin' brace o pistols, and my pick from the safe of ALL the models mentioned here on PISTOLA COUNTRY in the last week. Believe it or not, I am somewhat proficient with them.

I usually carry at the very least a KelTec .32, a nice sized folder and a little Swiss Army. A SureFire light and cell phone isn't far behind.

The back alleys of NO are really dark. Damn ole drunks will shank you if you look like an easy mark.

BILL: Nice knife. Thanks for the pic !

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:34:45 (ZULU)

Damn Joe,

that's a good idea, I'm donna have to fill out an ID10T form and get me some of that, does it work on cars too?????

Bisley Tiger, As said, go with the plethora of tapered bases. Shims will work, but why mess around?

Yards to meters, there's a difference?????

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florida, Land of the TH-57's - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:39:24 (ZULU)

I find it hard to believe how bent out of shape people are getting over sawed off, underpowered, wanna-be rifles! Jesus. The damn things are your last ditch hope and a matter of personal taste, like a knife. Caliber and reliability are more important than any given design. If you know what you're doing and you're well practiced, then it'll work for you. I like 1911's, I prefer them to the Glock I own, but I would not feel unarmed with either. Underarmed, yeah. But I always feel that way without an arty battery on the other end of a radio, so there.

Joe M, did you receive the second transmission with the actual information in it? It didn't report as bounce, so I assume it went through. Nasty word that.

Working on preping 30-06 brass for conversion to 280 AI. The dies are on the way. I'm going to anneal with a propane torch and a pan of water, do I anneal before or after necking down? I'd rather not collapse the shoulder if I can help it. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:57:03 (ZULU)

Brian: No war on my end. I just posted some things I know about Bowies. There was some good info posted for those who hadn't heard it before, eg: Move laterally, don't count on quick stops, don't underestimate them, etc.

On pistola country: Why should I send anyone videotapes? My pistol shooting is nothing spectacular. The only claim I made is that if someone "speed-holstered" on my line he'd be finished shooting.

And Ken M is right. A handgun is something you use if a real gun isn't available.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 2, 2002, at 22:57:59 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger...

You didn't say "which" two piece bases you have. If you have the "STD" bases and rings, toss them in the garbage.

Get a pair of Lupold "QRW" bases for the M700, and a set of Burris "Signature ZEE" rings (medium for normal scopes). This will solve your problems. If it turns out that you still don't have enough elevation, Burris makes a kit with many sizes of shims... all of my 1" scopes are in Burris "Z" rings, and are set up so the 100 zero is at the bottom of the elevation turret... it's all "up" from there. You can get a total of 40 MOA of taper with these excellent rings.

It is NOT a barrel alignment problem... but sometimes a very big hammer does wonders to these kinds of problems ;))

'yote Bate...

>"21 Feet and your gonna cut me with a knife? I guess I must be using a 1911 in this drill!"<

Hell... I'll use a 1911 in that drill, and have time for a beer. That Ninja fella mush have springs for feets!

Jim Anderson...

>"...just fall down and say "tell my wife I love her" and die."<

If I'm divorced, and hate my "Ex", does that mean I'll survive all the gun and knife fights ;)))

Dick Weed...

The problem is that many of us have owned PSS's (I have had 3), and one gets tired of the poor quality barrels, poor workmanship, poor stock to action fit, and two day cleaning rituals... I know that yours is great, but the rest of us are tired of it, especially in a gun that is typically $150 over it's twin varmint version, the VS.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:14:25 (ZULU)

Man, ever notice how the most condensed, useful, info to brainchew comes out here during the pissing contests? This site is at it's best informationwise during these running, heated arguments....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:35:07 (ZULU)

What the f!ck are you bitches babbling about now.....

'Yote Bait,

You can't stay in the sage brush forever mang,,, youse got to come home for supper.

21'?? If I can run away,, I will. Scared feet run faster than angry feet. If I have to fight,, I will,, but you best be prepared to kill me,, cause if I have to fight I'm gonna kill you,, even if I have to eat your goddamn throat.

D. Wiede,

Yes,, assholes come out of the woodwork when the stealth comes out of the case. It don't matter who makes the black rifle,, the ignorant are drawn to fat tubes like crack whores to truck stops.

Meter vs. Yards... the M60 ranges in Wieldflicken were in meters in the early 90's,,, the M-16 ranges at Campbell were yard in the mid 90's... If you're ranging you're target instead of guessing,, who gives a shit what units you range in?

Pat,

You lucky SOB,,,, You make me wanna cry every time I read one of those posts. Hope you and Jr. had a good visit. After seeing how this 260 is gonna do,, you still thinking about a 6/22-250?

It hit 18 degrees last night in TN. You can tell it's winter because everyone is getting at each others throats,,,, Kinda like family,,,, I'm off to find the batteries for a PRC E-8,, ya'll try and behave...

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:40:41 (ZULU)

Lito - D. Wiede and Joe are talking about other shooters at the range........LOL

I did what Joe did and bought land and have my own range. Even guys I know at the Sportmans club seem to get all stupid when a M1 or M3 LR comes out on any rifle. I shoot Ar-10's alot so I really get the attention from the idiots. I get tired of explaining that it is a .308 and not a .223 Bushmaster. My Stealth in the Woodland A4 stock with the M3 is a surefire idiot magnet. I am amazed how many guys saw one just like it in Desert Storm on the Discovery Channel re runs!!!!!

BRogers - take a deep breath. I think you took some good natured ribbing too seriously. I didn't even ask if Shepturd makes a scope for a Glock????? LOL HA HA LOL. One thing the Pistola debate shows is how personal are choices are. Pistols are like women, their are different ones out their with differing taste, but they all get the job done. But the one you picked is the best for you, and you better know it.....or you are in for a world of hurt if you feel otherwise.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:47:51 (ZULU)

CDC, You said "No war on your end". I just read your post and can not think that your intent was anything but to poke at him. Here is what I found provocative,

"These pups who only THINK they know something about the subject will handicap themselves by shooting 1911s. Of course you'll beat them all easily. It won't be any contest.

I've shot against some guys who had impressive credentials and whole rooms full of trophies, but I've never seen anyone as good as you."

How else would a person take this? It appears to be a personal attack to me. Bill has a long standing challenge, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! It is not right to intentionally start crap then back down time and time again. Christ your begining to act like Dean. I have supported you and this is the way I am repaid. Thanks.

Rifle Post: What size Decelerator pad do I need to order for my Stealth. I will probably need to remove 3/8" off the stock.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 2, 2002, at 23:59:37 (ZULU)

Switch barrels-the screw in barrel on the Browning MG's was primarily for headspace adjustment. There used to be considerable variation in base of case to datum line on shoulder variation in ammunition lots. It was felt to be desirable to be able to adjust the gun for any deficiencies in ammunition and normal wear. [I've got part of a lot of 1970's vintage FN '06 with this problem. It was sold for scrap and was supposed to have been pulled for components. BUT SOME GREEDY SOB SOLD IT AS AMMUNITION! Keep this in mind when you buy surplus ammo.]

The setups with the locking lug abutments in the barrel pose possible headspace problems unless a separate bolt/bolt head is supplied for each barrel or the spare barrels are chambered to produce acceptable results for THAT bolt. Like to see how Sauer does theirs. Maybe real tight QC on bolt face to rear lug dimension?

Knife Country- the fast time for the 21 foot footrace in one advanced class I went to was 0.87 seconds by a 47 year old WM Deputy from Detroit. Average time for the class was 1.38 seconds. Back when I was a Range Instructor I used a PACT timer and the average time range for an officer to react to a shoot signal they KNEW was coming and fire his/her first round was 1.5-1.75 seconds. I'm sure there are those for whom the laws of time and motion stand still, but for the rest of us, have an alternate plan to stand and shoot.

Personally, if the knife is in their hand, MY sidearm isn't gonna be in the holster unless I've got a real gun in hand.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:06:10 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Thanks for the response. The D. is worse than Dick, that's why I go by Wiede (like Tweedy etc. etc. etc). As far as being tough goes-youv'e heard the song "A Boy Named Sue"? Actions speak louder than words and I don't have to talk shit to anyone.

Lito

Admittedly the rifle is a POS. But why do you get so emotional about it. Were you ripped off when you bought your three. The SKS is a POS too But doesn't cause name calling, chest beating, etc. It's just a stick, of which I have many too. Just 'cause I carry it to the crapper doesn't mean I'm married to it.

FatBoy, Titan

Thanks for the response. Thought it was me for a min.

Nah...couldn't be me.

Wiede (like Speedy)

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Baltimore, Getto Wars, Going home in 1 piece daily - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:20:05 (ZULU)

D. Wiede,

Mang, I hope the Dick Weed joke (LOL) doesn't stick...I'll be buying you beers forever. How 'bout Sir "John Thomas" Weed? All you Maryland dwellers out there--I get through those parts twice yearly--my whole family is stuck in that hole. Might hafta get some beers in...

I like the "comments at the range" topic. Makes me wanna take the old M21 out to a public facility again just for conversation.

One question on this CQB knife fight thing: If the antagonist is armed with a 42" cleaning rod, do I give him 24 feet instead of 21 feet? Scared hand-gunners wanna know...

I crack myself up.

I found a bag of apples in the root cellar (trees all over the farm). Mmmm. Delicious. Wife kicked my ass for eating them. Seems they were for the Thanksgiving pies....

Lito--this is stupid question day, so here it is: Will dialing a scope all the way up and leaving it there screw the turrets up? The new 3x9 tactical loopy is set up thatta way. I have visions of magazines loaded for too long--you know, spring fatigue. I know that there ain't springs involved, but I wonder about it all the same...is this in any way bad for the turrets?

I await your newspaper swat...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:24:37 (ZULU)

"Switch barrels-the screw in barrel on the Browning MG's was primarily for headspace adjustment" and for swapping barrels when you got the first sucker too hot..

The Sauer quality control is very good, and thier production line is state or the art, tollerances are minimum, and the bolt lugs and barrel lugs cam together creating a tight headspace.Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:37:20 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

I got a Pacmeyer magnum recoil pad directly from HS Precision a couple years back. It was only $10+ shipping and it has Winchester stamped in the back instead of Pacmeyer,, looks factory. It still had to be fitted.

This may save you some $$ and get a factory look.

Charles Hunt,

You make the trip home safe mang? Hope all went well, and nice to meet a fellow Rosterfarian.

FatBoy...

Steve: I was telling Brian that there was no war concerning knives from my end.

You wrote, " It appears to be a personal attack to me. Bill has a long standing challenge, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!..."

Put up what? I made no claims of being able to do a .4 sec draw to hit. That's because I CAN'T.

"It is not right to intentionally start crap then back down time and time again."

I agree. So who did that? If you say that I did, please quote chapter and verse. Be specific. You'll notice that I make no claims as to my shooting ability, and - when someone says that I'm a good shot - I ALWAYS say that I'm no better than fair. Go through the archives carefully and find something I posted to the contrary.

"Christ your begining to act like Dean."

If I did what you said, I would agree. I didn't so I don't

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:51:18 (ZULU)

'lito, incoming, n/a, Rem .22-250

Larry

(Sharon)

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 00:53:21 (ZULU)

Pistol Country,

about a year or so ago Bolt (I think) posted an expierence he had while he was out hunitng with a friend. They happen upon a snake on the trail and bolt drew up to shoot the snake. As he did so the things head exploded. The guy he was hunting with shot the snakes head off, from the hip, with a rifle that had no sights. As I recall, the gentleman told bolt to stop aiming and get busy shooting.

This has stuck with me, and it's what Kevin was getting at a few days back. So long as you have the tool, the skills and the will to use it,, does it really matter what you like best?

Knife Country,

In '93 our sister company C 6-502nd Inf got a new Private (PV2 Asay). He had been in Germany less than 3 months when he was attacked on an S bahn late one night with his buddy. A Turk(Kurd,, whatever) came up behind him as he sat in the seat with his buddy and cut his cheek open from the corner of his lip to the tip of his left ear. Asay pulled out a pocket Gerber, blocked the guys advance and jabbed the knife into the guys armpit as hard as he could. He couldn't pull the knife out it went in so hard.. Just as he did the the train stopped and the Turk jumped off. Asay went strait to Blanchfield and got treated, as well as called the MP's and Polizi(sp??). They found the Turk dead the next moring, about 200 yards from the train stop, bleed to death... Guess a Gerber folder was good enough that day,, but Asay wore a scar 5" long from one of those curved bladed shives them bastards carry..

So how do you guys carry these long blades? I found an M9 Bayonet to be irritating, I can't imaging a 13" long Bowie. Is it a ruck carry or do you keep it on your web gear?

FatBoy...

OK enough of this getting pissed off at each other crap.

Here it is in a nutt shell. Brogers is talking what he can do in a range game he plays. For him the Glock is faster. So be it. I beat up on him pretty good because I train not as a game. Matter of fact I really beat up on the IPSC Game boys because they have tactics that suck. We are talking different things here.; No reason for you to go anywhere. Certainly not from my perspective. I would miss you so stay you old fart.LOL

The whole thing about the 21 foot crap, is this. If someone is within 21 feet of you and suddenly attacks they will reach you before you, can identify the threat, react and move to stop it. Its adding all the varibles. Now if I have two guys stand and face each other and I yell go, one runs at the other he will get center puched by the other guy shooting him, because they both start to react at the same time. We teach guys this so, they add the step to the side as they shoot. Creates reaction time for asssault guy and gives you some advantage back.

Just because we dont agree does not mean we cant enjoy a good discussion. I hate folks that always agree with me, thats why I like LItto so much.LOL

Joe, no you need a clean patch for the rod so he canm clean your pipes as he goes by.

Undude.

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:09:48 (ZULU)

Just picked up an AR-10T and was wondering how anybody out there had set up their optics. Considering something like a Swan Sleeve, but I'd prefer to have some steel to mount by rings on (Badger). Only ones I've found so far with a taper (20 MOA) are aluminum. Anything else anybody could say about this thing from experience would be appreciated.

Hold Hard Gentlemen,

Fitz.

Fitz. <fitz308@sbcglobal.net>
IL, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:10:40 (ZULU)

Joe M & The Rest of Y'all

Use the e-mail address when you're in this God-forsaken town & I'd be glad to buy you a beer (or whatever your poison).

Joe

Don't sweat the name. After all these years with it I'm at least tough enough to withstand name calling.

Wiede

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, Where Republicans Finally Rule - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:12:56 (ZULU)

>>>>If firearms are such an attention-getter, why did we let the bed-wetters nix all the shooting teams in our schools? I can think of no better vehicle for teaching youth civil responsibility than this!<<<

If you're looking for a shooting program for young people, look no further than your County 4-H.

I was a 4-H (3) position Rifle Coach for our county for 12 years. Won the district title consistently and fielded several state level teams...and one year a Texas State High Individual. That young man is on his last leg of training before he takes on the role of fighter jock. At this point he's not sure if he'll be flying F-15s, 16s or maybe A-10 WartHogs. Am I proud? Damn right. Our program in this county is still one of the best in the area.

It was a pleasure working with these young men and women. They were always self-motivated and highly competitive. Like one kid's T-shirt said, "Second Place is First Place Loser." Losing was not an option with these young shooters.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:14:09 (ZULU)

I sometimes coach the jr smallbore league at the local American Legion Hall, quite a few Legions have them. Same with the VFW. Almost all states have a junior highpower rifle team and they recruit pretty actively as well. If the kid shows interest and a desire to shoot, ways can be found to get them to the matches, get them ammo, rifles to use etc etc. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:39:07 (ZULU)

Wiede,

B'town and surrounding areas are etched in my brain. My earliest memories are riding a tricycle in front of our brownstone just before we moved to Riverdale. That house was pushing crack last I checked...hauled ass back across the tracks asap. Beer would rock--maybe on my way overseas as beer is scarce where I may be headin'(soon...may have the orders by next week). Gotta swing through and might even have the time. I'll let ya know.

MK4,

I just "discovered" 4H--my "city" upbringing led me to think it was only cows. Mang, they do it all! I will get involved (Blake already is) when I return--it looks good for Kuwait for me for the next year. I hope your boy gets the warthog--most appreciated airframe by the ground guys (next to me in my whirlybird that is). LOL. You are proud of him; we parents are proud of you and guys like you. Thanks for volunteerin'

Gents,

What is a good sight system for an M4? I'd want a tritium style floating dot; mounted directly to the rail (handle is garbage). I am thinking something quick, two eye shooting. I played with the first generation, and they were ungodly fast and accurate to 100 yds once you got used to them. That was a million generations ago. The loopy CQB looks stout, but is it worth it? Or is there something better? This would be a E&E carbine in the cockpit--so sturdiness is a must. The damn whirlygigs vibrate worse than a lesbo's toy! There I go again, someone call the PC police before I slam another liberal pet social group.

Note: I am in my office waiting for a HQs call--bored and posting like a fool. Brian S, you'll have to get me one of those pointy hats in N.O....a fool has to be in uniform, ya know?

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 01:57:48 (ZULU)

Joe M,

While we are on the subject, who took the keys to the gate at the impact area? Didn't see them on their hook in S4! HeeHee!

Come on, Yote Bait! Although we have seen you and CDC disagree before, this takes the cake! If you want to blow up and leave, ONLY do it for something really big and important! Not over popgun prowess and the ticks of an old pocketwatch! Shit, we all know the Coyotes out your way can't afford a Rolex! And a few of them are unable to comment on your ability due to an early demise!

Mindset is critical. Smooth is fast. Safe prevents accidents. It is not what you see coming, but how you react once it starts. Really hard to practice that, being every possible scenerio is different.

If you are confident in what you are carrying, that is half the battle.

Stay safe!

Les

PS Oh yeah, a P220 workie for me! Bangs every time like a dinnerbell on the ponderosa!

Les Martin <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:13:45 (ZULU)

Fritz - Congrats on jooining the AR-10 fraternity. IF you are using an M4 get badger rings for the AR rifles or the Armalite mount. They Armalite mounts are very well done and come in the 30mm for tactical scopes. For all other ( Sinister Dave and myself anyways) Use the GG&G 20 MOA scout rail for the AR-10, not the std 20 moa rail. Use badger med rings. The advantage of the scout rail over the STD is that their is room at the back for the flip up rear sight if you plan on using one for back-up with the flip up front sight. The overhang in the front is just long enough for ring mounting but not to long as to get in the way. The GG&G is aircraft aluminum alloy, but I have had no trouble with mine. Get yourself tac latch and a sling and your good to go. Drop me an Email and I will tell you how to fix the mags so they feed right and other booring details.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:30:30 (ZULU)

DAN: Plan to contact you off line 'bout them big knives. Better yet, shoot me a phone number to my mail. (if you don't mind that is).

DICK WEED: Hey, I feel your pain. Been INSANE since the first grade. Kids can be so cruel. I let 'lito think he cornered the market on that moniker. Gotta a Sergeant named Blitch. he hee.

Pistols like women ... yep.

Kinda like cowboy hats too. Everybody's got their preference in color and crease. Most folks that know horses here wear black or a silverbelly (gray) in winter and a straw in summertime.

But ... no matter what it looks like, somebody says something about yer damn hat and the fight is on. Used to make you check 'em at the door at the VFW dances.

Used to dip the brim in sugar water to make 'em stiffer. Everybody takes their hat off before a fight and if you were lucky enough to get the first lick in, that brim is a wicked chop to the throat.

My ole black was red on the front edges from dancin' with them tall girls and their lipstick rubbing off when I'd accidentally bump into 'em, lookin' in their eyes and puttin' that sex spell on 'em. (It was gonna rub off one way or another anyway cuz the chicks dig me).

Seen more fights over cowboy hats than women.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:36:57 (ZULU)

Guys; I just need to fade out for a while. I've got a lot of work at the job that needs doing this December. If I get it done it will be a bigger feat than drawing in .4 seconds. I've been home with the flu and still have it and time's getting away. Personal problems have made me too sensitive I guess. Fagadaboutit! One less Geezer won't matter a bit.

Mike's about right, what I said has nothing to do with anything except a very quick snatch and shoot at very short range. From there it's just like everything else. I could send you guys a video in living color and somebody still wouldn't believe it. You know I spent most of my life around a range where if I said I was gonna do something I was right there to prove it. I guess I forgot this is the internet where everything is cyber and false. Honor or truth isn't much of a factor on here. Doubt and suspicion is the rule of the day. When I get time Dan I'll send you a video. You can record cartoons over it if you want. I have your address, back from a time I thought you were a friend of mine.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:41:08 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Just got incoming mail from your email address and it was infected with a virus, Sir. Might want to scan your files. Guess they are at it again!

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 02:55:48 (ZULU)

"very quick snatch and shoot at short range ?" - Okay, I'll leave that one alone. he hee.

Seriously guys, ya'll the most sensitive bunch of MEN I ever seen.

Ya'll need to quit wearing your feelings on your damn sleeves and buck up. This is the damn internet for goodness sakes. You know how that shit goes. Half the stuff never comes out like you meant it.

This ain't no tupperware party. We're talking guns and knives and kicking bad guys asses and shit and everybody's always gettin' their FEELINGS HURT ?

So and so hurt my feelings on the internet (rubbing my eyes). I'm taking my ball and going home. Sounds pretty stupid, huh ? Sheesh.

Damn fellas ... wtf ?

BOBBY WHITTINGTON: Enjoyed talking with you today. Take care, sir.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:12:47 (ZULU)

>>>>I hope your boy gets the warthog--most appreciated airframe by the ground guys (next to me in my whirlybird that is). LOL. You are proud of him; we parents are proud of you and guys like you. Thanks for volunteerin'<<<<<

Thanks for the kind words but it was my joy and privilege to help these fine young people...and quite frankly I fed on their enthusiasm. They made my job that much easier. What was really hard was having to make the cut for the team especially when it was VERY close. I had many a kid to "tear-up" after telling him or her the bad news. But that's the way it was...and still is.

It's always a thrill to see one of them years later and to be told how much the rifle program meant to them. Can't put a price on that.

As for the fighter jock (to be)....he's WISHING for the Warthog. The idea of carrying all of that ordnance sort of does something for him...if you know what I mean ;)))

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:28:27 (ZULU)

Big knife carry: Letting the things flop down on your leg is a no-go. The classic way to carry a Bowie is with a scabbard that only covers the blade. There's a little stud that protrudes from it about 1/2" below the guard. You drop that inside your belt. A good Bowie has a drop blade kind of like a Kukri. If a right hander holds a good right hand Bowie point up with the edge away from him, he'll see that the handle curves to the left. That makes the knife conform to his body. Believe it or not, you can toss a windbreaker or dress jacket over it and it's not hard to conceal.

That's no bueno for s**t for the field. When you are coming down a rock slide at 2:00 A.M. the LAST thing you need is an unscheduled appendectomy. A good Bowie will give you one QUICK, QUICK!

The Cutlery Shop used to make Kydex scabbards that served the purpose well. I don't know if they still do.

If you go with something without a guard, like an Arkansas Camp Knife, there is something I heard called a "mountain man" scabbard. BK&T sells an Arkansas Camp Knife that was designed by Jerry Fisk that uses one. Brad Pitt used a classic design of that sheath in some forgetable movie that also starred Anthony Hopkins. I still haven't figured out how he got a Bowie into the thing. Jerry Fisk can line you out on all of this stuff. He's a Hell of a nice guy and a fantastic blade-smith.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:30:17 (ZULU)

Brian,

Same here, and like I said, if I can help you in anyway, just holler, and if you find yourself in this neck of the woods, please stop by and visit.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 03:53:51 (ZULU)

Long post, here we go.

Marc, you owe Pat an appology for your rudeness and arrogance. He's no slouch, and on my limited knowledge of Pat, I'd bet on him over you in a heartbeat. I have my reasons. Play nice, the elders here are respected for a reason. That's both a hint and a jab at Pat LOL.

Well, I just can’t stand to see a good man kept down.

Mike, you and I have been friends for quite some time, and I hope that nothing I say now will change that. I’m completely sincere in that statement. I’ll even admit that the majority of our disagreements aren’t really that as much as me jabbing at you just out of fun, because I know you’re good for the laughs, and that’s going both ways.

I’ll take up the colors for poor fallen Bill Rogers, and the next time we meet, I’ll handle his end of that situation. From the holster, multiple hits, whatever you want. Just make it realistic, like I know that you would anyway. I doubt that I’ll teach you anything, but maybe I’ll be able to demonstrate what Bill was talking about with the mechanical advantage. On the trigger reset, that distance is variable. You can change it to what you want it to be, down to dang-that’s-short. The major difference is that it doesn’t take lots of money to pull that stunt off. Now, I’m not saying that thing is perfection out of the box, I’m just saying that getting it there is a much more cost effective solution. We all agree though, those top three (or seventeen, whatever) pistols are about par, it's the operator and practice that makes the difference.

Bill, your drill on the target, from the holster, first round hit. I haven’t measured to compare, but I’ve done extremely similar drills at very comparable distances, both closer and farther. My reaction, draw, and first round times range between (I edited this section after reading CDC's post. From what he wrote, it would sound like I was a liar. Guess it's better seen than printed) seconds, depending on range. I will admit though, I’m not an advanced pistolero. At 9 feet, the advanced pistoleros that I run with are firing while I’m drawing, and they do it with a one-hand hold. When I asked why they transitioned that way, I was told that small distances need small times. Although I can’t mimic them completely, I do try on occasion. On being able to rotate the cylinder and not fire the round, at first I was going to poke at you and say that if you went to a Smith, you wouldn’t have that problem. Just poking fun though, I know you can do that with a Smith, but with an improper Colt, it does that when you don’t want it to. By the way, on the Colts, you can have them changed slightly to keep the stacking monster away, giving an extrordinarily smooth and clean break with the same weight all the way through the travel. All it takes is a little time and a little cash, like everything else. I can explain how they do that, if anyone is interested, but I doubt they are.

TorF, keep preaching the faith brother, keep preaching the faith. Someone out there will hear it, and take heed. Maybe. If not, at least you did your part.

Mr. Bolt, I've got a question for you, because I figure it's right up your alley. No, nothing about ebay woodland camo bikinis LOL. Since you work on reels, and I'm assuming they're aluminium, what you use to strip the old grease out of them without disturbing the paint or anodizing? I'd hate to ruin the finish I've got doing something stupid, but Hoppes #9 hasn't made a dent in this old stuff.

And now for my stupid question for the semester, professors. I know that Badger Ord makes some great bottom metal. Same for Ross, and some others I've caught. My question, and sorry if this smacks of heressy, is WHY? I'm not questioning why bottom metal should be steel instead of aluminium, or hardened instead of thin. I'm asking why there should be any bottom metal at all. Other than a solid steel, wide trigger guard that is. Why not have a blind mag? With all these nifty turnbolts out there, all using bottom metal, I have to question what the reasoning is, and why I haven't been properly educated by you slackers prior to this. Is it nothing more than giving the action something solid as one piece to clamp the stock into? Hard to believe that an ADL is less rugged than a BDL, but that flies in the face of conventional wisdom. So educate me! LOL

Joe Mahon, you're still one of the funniest on here, hope things keep getting better for you, say, for the next 80 years. If you just get better looking long enough, you'll be like Brian and myself. Chicks dig us. On the spring fatigue, theoretically, it's a nonissue. Springs are supposed to stay compressed, indefinately, if correctly made, and not lose tension. In the real world, we have temperature extremes, stuff that eats at the spring itself, shocks, etc. Most of how a spring reacts to being compressed for long times has to do with how much it costs to produce. Sad, but true. Good stuff costs. Lesbo toys! HA! Let me get the popcorn. On the hats though, the chicks dig the Stevie Ray Vaughn look LOL.

And Bill Rogers, you know you ain't leaving any time soon. Remember that, or I'll have to dress you up in Steve's blue dress and pumps prior to administering an over-the-knee spanking LOL

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 04:10:07 (ZULU)

Ok Guys,

I appologize to Pat for my impatience, I get very tired of explaining that I said meters in the first post,not yards and that was the point of the comment!

Marc

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 07:42:55 (ZULU)

I love working on the computer at 3:00 AM... I'm listening to "Art Bell" on the radio, and some guy is going on about area 51, aliens (NOT from Mexico ;), and underground cities beneath the Sahara Desert... you gotta love this country!! Only in America! ;))))))))))))))))

Hey 'yote Bate...

Don't you dare leave. I don't want to be the only endangered species "Fossel" on this site (Rick is only beginning to catch up)... hell, you're the only guy I know that loves the .41!!

Sharon...

Got your e-mail... your lipstick clashes with your purse ;))

Dick Weed...

I ain't emotional about... well maybe a bit. That's cuz I remember when Remington used to make a really fine rifle. But it ain't just the PSS... it's Remington M700 quality all together. I just bought a M700 light walkin' varmint rifle, and the list of stuff wrong with it filled a full page, and I will take MAJOR work to get it to the point that it should be when it came out of the box!! That Sucks... and what about the guy that can't do the work?? He eats the big weenie, cus Rem WON'T make it better!

Joe M...

Scope question? NO! No worries Mate!

Which Riverdale you talkin' about... north of NYC??

Bobby Whittington...

I didn't send you no "Disease" (you got it on leave, from that woman! ;))

This current virus doesn't get generated at the the senders address, it comes from somewhere else. I had this computer off line (and I MEAN "OFF", like taken apart) for 8 weeks, and guys were saying that they were getting infected mail from me. Plus, this machine has been back on line for about 2 weeks, and is squeekie CLEAN!

Maybe Ken can explain it... but I do know that if I get a virus sent to me from one of you guys, you didn't send it.

Warthogs ROCK!! My favorite (current operational) plane! A6's are my second favorite :))

Mark...

I can Garri-damn-tee you that Pat knows the difference between yards and meters. He knows a bit more than that too. In a match between you and him... out to 1300 yards (OR meters), I know where I'd put my money. But he's dog ugly! HA!

It's 16 degrees here, and I'm going back to bed. Winter SUCKS!! :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 08:32:40 (ZULU)

Changable barrels?

Anyone tried the Savage system yet? They're selling wrenches and headspace gauges and even bolt heads to change boltface size.

Brodgers,

Hang around man, some of us respect you for who you are not so much what you can or cannot do.

I received a flyer from Crimson Trace yesterday. The new NIJ numbers, whether one believes them or not, indicate 80% of all conflicts occur in low or failing light. The second "fact", their term not mine, is the all to common "7 yard" reference. Most incidents are still occuring this close. The 3rd feature is almost all confrontations involve the movement of victim or attacker or Both. Even among veteran LE there are 6 or 7 things which will probably occur... target fixation, limited near vision acuity, narrowed field of vision, auditory exclusion, time will slow down, "spray and pray" reflex MAY develop and vaious sympathetic nervous system reactions. I was told by a learned individual once that in almost every gunfight one of the shooters will be shot in the hand that is holding the weapon. So take your sights off and go shoot rats in the dump at night with a streetlamp in your eyes. Obviously, Crimson Trace is trying to make a point for their product, but the "facts" are there. The faster you produce and accurately discharge your weapon the more likely you are to survive long enough to answer the civil suit that is sure to follow.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 10:41:12 (ZULU)

By the way....

According to NDIA magazine, Sen. John McCain R.AZ. missed the vote on the $355 billion defense spending bill. Where was he? In NYC preparing to host Saturday Night Live. For the record, he was opposed.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 11:06:29 (ZULU)

On the blade thread....

If you regularly tote a sidearm concealed {IWB holster} with spare ammo {mag pouch, speedloader case, 2x2 pouch??} and stuff a Bowie in your pants also, doesn't it get a bit crowded in your waist band, not to mention heavy???

Anyone ever tote a boot knife?? I wear packers a lot and, when I carry it, find my old Randall rides quite nicely in the right boot..Not lightning quick to get to but it's there if needed.

Is that a Bowie knife in your pants or are you just glad to see me??

Andrew T...Get an 870..A SPAS! can you say heavy??

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 12:59:24 (ZULU)

Markwell: You forgot the Surefire light and cell phone.

I carry a little $35 folder in my right front pocket. The big knives stay home.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 13:40:40 (ZULU)

Damn guys...Lets all step back and take a deep breath here!! Bill & CD you know how what is written can be taken one way when your meaning something else. You two both are very knowlegable in your areas of shooting and I respect you both so lets shake hands and make up.

When I was on the Patrol teaching defensive tactics we did a lot of training on the 21' rule and you "Will" get cut if your rushed by a man with a knife. Its damn hard to get a gun out when you busy trying to keep from getting cut.

We put over a 100 troopers through the training and we cut them all. I am not saying there aren't guys out there who can't draw and put three between your eyes before you get to them but if your not expecting it and they come after you the "Average" duck is going to get cut, period!!!

Marc..

No need to appoligize, when I reread my post of "Bully for you" that sure could have been taken as a smart ass remark and was not ment that way, only in jest. Your definatly intitled to your opinion as I am mine. I base my arguments on actual shooting of both calibers. I am on my 3rd 308 barrel and on my 3rd 260 barrel.

If you went back through the archives (When I first went to the 260) I used to joke about how much better my wind calls had gotten and the reason was I could flat tell a difference in my shooting because of less margin of error due to the better BC. For me wind is the big thing. I can laze the exact range but the wind eats your shorts out here.

You may not believe this but I could use the same data for the 260 as I did for my 300WM with the 190s at 2800 or 2900fps. I forget just off the top of my head which it was. When I went to the 6.5x284 I noticed a difference over the 260 so you can see why I am a die hard 6.5 fan.

I am a civilian and I have a choice of what I want to shoot and at my age I need all the advantange I can get!!!! This is why I choose to go with the higher BCs of the 6MMs,6.5s,7MMs. They don't beat you up as bad and they shoot fla