Sniper Country Duty Roster

December 01, 2000 - December 06, 2000

Time for a stupid question (don't laugh): what are the receiver differences in a clip slotted 700 and one that's not? I'm assuming that in my mild and sheltered life I've never come across one, but I'm wondering why there's a difference. So when you get done laughing.....
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
trying to dodge play-doh duty, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 01:44:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
need some info on barrel twist and what calibers work best with different twist?? I currently have a 7mm barrel with a 1 in 8 twist.
7mm-08.There is about 26 inches of rifling.How much powder can I put behind the bullet if I were to go to a bigger case.Is a 7mmSTW or a 7mmMag out of the Question.Which would be the most accurate.Or should I just stay with the 7mm-08???You guys would know, I am pretty new to all of this stuff.Any info or comments greatly appreciated.
Jeff Wojcik <>
Stevens Point, Wi., USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:09:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have been reading about this mysterious steel in that lap. I have a couple of questions about it. First, are you sure it is stainless? It might be what they call T1. Which is the stuff they make the scraper part of dozer blades out of. It doesn't rust real fast, and it is as hard as they come. We used it one time as bullet proofing in a building we sent to an economically challenged part of town (material was 1"). Anyway, this is my thought on this matter. I usually sign my name with CWI under it at work. That means Certified weld inspector. Good luck finding out what it is.
John <>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:11:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tim O'Hare...
I've done the Brownells Teflon finish, and I like it a lot... so does everybody that has seen it. And it's tough!


Tee hee tee hee tee hee!!
A clip slotted M700 reciever differs from a normal M700, in that it has clip slots... (you knew that was coming).
But seriously... the front edge of the receiver bridge has a .5" x .5" section cut out of it, and then, on the inside edges of that slot, two dimples are machined to accept stripper clips, like the old '03 Springfield, and Mausers. The rear edge of the front ring
has a small notch cut away, because the .308 round needs a bit more clearence to feed stright down from the stripper.


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:21:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

This lap thread just won't die ;))... I had drawn up the diagrams on a cad program, and specified "Any stainless steel"... and they mooched a piece 1/2" rod from somewhere else, so it could be anything.

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:30:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hellow Folks...I have a question for the regulars... I'm mostly just a paperpuncher but i'm looking to take up 'yote hunting to sharpen my skills a bit. I have a .30-06 Springfield (I know, overkill) to use untill I come up with something a little smaller. The "smaller" I am thinking of is a Savage Tactical in .223 Rem. I figure the 20" tube is a little handier than the 24" tube on the Varmint model for stalking/carry, without sacraficing the thicker tubes "hot" accuracy. The gun will also serve to dispatch ground squirrels, jackrabbits, and PD's on occasion.

Couple of questions concerning this rig:

What kind of accuracy can I expect out of this rifle, as it comes from the factory, plus a little trigger adjustment to suit my finger? (with a decent scope and factory loads, as I dont reload YET :)

And how much should I expect to pay for this rifle, sans scope, rings etc...?

Thanks A bunch,
Adam--Utah <>
Ogden, Utah, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello folks!!!


The reason I question your lapping method is because I usually lap with materials softer than the material being lapped. It is the compound that does the work, and you will end up lapping the lap instead of the part. Plus, you may have a problem with the lapping compound embedding in the part, not giving it a chance to break down and do it's job. Just my 2 cents on the subject, I could be mistaken, that's just the theory I've gone by. Sometimes quicker isn't better, cut-rifler's motto, heheh. 'Lito, I used to lap 10-20 actions a day, lugs and bolt face, and I never had a problem using the brass lap. 100% contact and shiny as a baby's bottom. It's all in the lapping compound. I can set you up with some primo goop if you need. Let me know if you need any more info on this subject.

Barrel Steel:

Stainless steel barrels are usually a 416 grade stainless, cut riflers use a 416R which is heat treated and stress relieved at the plant, where button riflers stress relieve after rifling. Stainless barrels, depending on manufacturer, run from 24-35 Rockwell and yes, magnets will stick to all stainless barrels, all that I know of anyway.


Who do you recommend for chamber reamers on the 6.5 x284?? I have a feeling we will be getting a few more orders for the cartridge here within the next year or so, and I just wanna know where the competition is at, heheh. I've been out of the shop since Nov. 10?? can't even remember, but I checked my barrel orders out Tuesday and saw that someone ordered a rifle in 300 WSM. If anyone orders this cartridge, let it be known now, that it may take some time for them to be built. This cartridge, to my knowledge, is still under development, and until I hear satisfactory performance from downstairs, I'd hold off a while. I don't wanna see someone wasting $2000 on someone's wet dream. I know I've talked it up a bit on this site, it's the shit on paper, but haven't seen it with my good eye yet.


First thing Monday morning when I get back to work from my long and restful vacation, I will make sure that I put your barrel on hold. HAHAHAH. I don't even wanna see the pile of work I've got, but I'm gonna run some 11.25" twist 308's next week, you'll get a beauty. You sure you don't want a 45" 50 Cal BMG SLAP?? It seems everyone else does this month(only 20 more to go.............)

GOD I LOVE MY JOB!!!!!!!!!!! I'm serious, sometimes it takes a few weeks away to reaffirm it, but it just doesn't get any better than this. Starin down a challenge, hoo-ah. GIT 'ER DONE!!


JR <>
snowing in Rapid City, SD, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:31:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

7mm-08; Funny you should ask, just got of the phone with a friend about the same thing. You named 3 pretty good cartridges there but if it's accuracy you want above all, I'd stay with the 7mm-08.. one of the best. But anyway the 7mm-08 was the darling of the Sillouette Rifle crowd a few years back. It was chosen for low recoil and superb accuracy at reasonable trajectory. I saw a lady from Mexico humble a whole field of American Shooters with one but the max range was 500 metres. I hunted Wiley for 2 years with it and found it superb except we were selling hides and Wiley wouldn't stay together to put him in the sack when I picked him up. The 7mm magnum is not as good on accuracy but is an excellent hunting cartridge but I prefer the .300 Win. The 7 STW is f###kin awesome period. IT appears to be fairly accurate but it is so loud I can't stand to shoot it. Did I say the 7mm-08 is the prettiest cartridge around! Now there's one for you ...prettiest.
Bravo, Pat just hasn't been the same since that New Mexican romance he had!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:48:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
has anyone out there gotten a rifle from Texas Brigade Armory recently? Just checking.
Jim <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:55:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo for bladed weapons i like S7, It gets mid 50 rockwell and has twice the impact strength of other steels

iiii's <>
siloam springs, ar, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 02:57:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Master Lapper Bolt here!

Ditto what the Bravo man said. Eat ten pounds of spinach, call your massage expert, order new shirts and get to lappin'.

Lock your rifle tight in the vice. Put the lap compound all over the lap bar. Tighten down all four ring screws evenly until the lap bar barely moves. Move your lap back and forth and to and away from you in kind of an 'x' pattern until it gets a little loose. Use the entire length of the lap bar so it will wear the same across the entire bar. Tighten up again and go back at it.

Your wifie will be amazed at the size of your new arms!
Bolt <>
NC, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 03:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey! has anyone out the used hodgdon benchmark powder out there. just picked up a pound of it to try in the .223, 7-08, and 3-08. Anyone got a good load to try. looks like it will go threw the powder measure real good.

Need some imformation on a set of ring and bases for a win 70. I see badger listed for the rem 700 do they make the same for the win 70's?
What about the mark 4 ring and bases much differance from the badger ones? What the better bang for the buck?
looking forward to the reply Jason out
Jason <>
Canada - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 03:33:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Adam: I don't know anything about the Savage rifles, but you may want to check around before you commit yourself to using a .223 on coyotes. Too many dogs will run on you. I like them and respect them enough to kill 'em clean. One of the hotter .22 rounds would be a better bet if you are saving skins.

Any thoughts 'yote bait?

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 04:00:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr. Torsten,

I have copied the message you posted for me and to be fair to everyone i am copying it and answering at the bottom of this message-
>I read that you have a Blaser Tactical.
>New ? still warranty on it ?
>I have friends with a few SWAT teams here in Germany and they all >returned their Blaser93R tactical´s because they would not fire a >consistent cold bore shot.
>I think they were all 5 cm high and left if I am correct.
>Problem seems to be with the bedding and the attachment screw´s
>Check this if it matters to you, if you don't need a first round >hit, don't worry, it is a good rifle as long as it is in a clean >environment.
>I don't want to bust your ball´s on this, just wanted to let you >know.
Ok, i do have several questions before i can answer this in detail, your friends in swat teams in germany have no dought tested the Blaser tactical and ordered over 20 examples, HOWEVER- they ordered the first out of the factory (that's ussualy how they work), this model had the 22" barrel with a 1 on 12 twist, NOW, this twist in such a short barrel will -NOT- stabilize a heavy bullet, if they indeed used a bullet for this twist it had to be under 168gr, they must of encountered a new issue -OVER-PENETRATION-, the blasers that have the 24" barrel now have a 1 in 10 twist and stabilize the 168gr HPBT very well. Giving the stopping power needed without compromising innocent bystanders. I've had no such problems, the first shot does not wonder. If indeed your friends are using the blaser, it makes me wonder, what ammo, is it zeroed. I'd hate to be at the receiving end of this fine weapon.

Fred <>
MIA, FL, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 04:13:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone out there know of a truly good interchangable barrel system for the rem700? I would love to have both a .22-250 and .308 in the same gun. Have any of you guys played with the 338-308 wildcat? I have read about 2700fps with 210 grains.

'lito please please send me those bedding instructions.

Thanks a million for all of your advice! I canot beleave the nerve of some people! Let it be known that most of you regulars have god-like status in my eyes.
Chad <>
Oklahoma City, ok, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 04:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

More 6.5 X .284 Norma...

Ammo loaded for weekend testing...will have results soon.

6.5 X .284 Norma Reamers:
Call Dave Kiff
Pacific Precision Grinding
P.O. Box 2549
White City7) 97503
Phone: 541-826-5808
Fax: 541-826-5304

Dave did the reamer for the 6.5 X .284 Norma and the Chandler Experimental 6.5 X .284 project. His reamers are works of art.

Ask for the Black Hill's Ammo Spec Reamer. It is speciifcally ground for use with the 142 gr. Sierra MK and an OAL of 2.98".
Works beautifully in my Chandler gun...

Gun Finishes: Have used Parkerizing, blue (rust and chemical), Armaloy, Robar's Rogard and NP3, and Black "T". For the tactical rifle I like the Black "T" the best.

On the other hand the black lacquer sold by Brownell's is cheap, works well, and allows you to touch up at any time. Available in camo colors, too.

Your choice...ain't America wunnerful...?

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 05:01:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yukon Jason: yeah, Badger makes stuff for the Winchesters. If you go to hot links, Badger has a page, and you can see 'em. I just happened to be looking at the Winchester mounts tonight there, so I feel confident in that statement HA! As for rings, I like the looks of the Badgers personally. Take this as it's meant, I use ARMS QD types on mine!

Boltster: thanks for picking up my slack. I forgot to mention the X shape (or I call it a figure 8) that you make with the handle. It comes from polishing NaCl lenses. You learn how to keep 'em nice and FLAT while polishing them. Same idea on the lapping bar. And spinach ;-)

Adam on the Wassach front: I ditto that of CDC. I've never hit a dog with a 223, but I've seen folks hit West Texas deer with them (my dog was bigger than the deer out there!) and they didn't react like they were hit well, even when they were. In other words, I wouldn't do it.

Well, this will hurt me to say, but I'm actually thinking of a bolt gun (after the battle rifle that is fast approaching). Patron 'Lito filled my head tonight with all kinds of ideas. So now I'm gonna keep my eyes open for that "action donor" cheap deer rifle at the local shows. Now the hard part is going to be talking myself out of the Winnie ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Still the DOGG, and still got teeth!, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 05:12:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

M Staite,

First of all, the number one rule of marksmanship is to be consistent. Even if you yank the trigger with three fingers, if you can do it exactly the same every time it will work. As I'm sure you know, I am just making a funny example here. Not advocating jerking or using three fingers on the trigger. Just trying to make a point. Another couple of points I'd like to make are 1) while you are at the school, learn how to be a good spotter. Being behind the gun is alot easier than being behind the spotting scope. Your spotter will either make or break you as a Sniper team. 2) DON'T get into the habit of basing your next shot off the impact of your last shot. Try to treat every shot as if it were the first. In the real world your shots are more likely to be cold-bore shots and you wont have the luxury of firing a sighter round to see what the wind is doing and if your range estimation was right. Now, with that said, at the school none of your shots will be beyond 800 meters. My advice to you is to concentrate more on the fundamentals of marksmanship right now, not long range. If you want some great practice, DRYFIRE! It is, in my humble opinion, the best practice available and doesn't cost a dime. I've heard some people say that you can break your firing pin by dryfiring on an empty chamber but I've never seen it. If this is a concern, buy a .308 snap-cap. Learn to be aware of EXACTLY where your crosshairs are when the trigger breaks. This is known as "calling your shot" and is critical in sniping. However, you have to be honest with yourself and your spotter for it to be effective. If you know your shot broke while your crosshairs were on the left shoulder of the maiden and you call it center mass he is going to give you an unnecessary correction that will then cause your next shot to be off as well. Get my drift? Just work on the fundamentals for now and try not to develop any bad habits. Dry firing will also program your subconscious not to expect recoil. This is, in my humble opinion, the best training to avoid flinching from anticipating recoil. If you've ever heard of David Tubb, he is one of the best shooters alive. He spends 70% of his training time just dryfiring. Don't worry about the long range stuff. They will teach you all that they can at the school. After that it will just be a matter of you taking what you've been taught to the range and furthering your education on your own. Long range shooting is not learned in weeks. It takes years. I hope this helps. I know it is more info than you asked for but sometimes I start preaching and can't find a good point to stop at. I'm sure that there will be other opinions on this board about what I've said. Listen to all of them and apply whatever works best for you to put bullets where you want em to go. I'm getting a cable modem tuesday and will get ICQ sometime soon after. Till then keep e-mailing or try IM on AOL or Yahoo.

M Taylor <>
El Paso, TX, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 07:06:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, The clip slotted 700's are for match shooting. The HighPower guys use the M14 stipper clips for zipping in 5rd. So while the mag fed guys go 2rd, mag change, 8rd for their string of 10, the match class goes 5 and 5. They are all in the same time constraints as the gas guns. I found one at a local gun show slotted like that. Looked real close at the reciever, 40X! Almost wet myself when the guy was only asking $450 for it. He said the barrel was shot out, and it was time for a new gun. I guess his reasoning is the same as the people that get new cars when the tires are wore out on the one they own!
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 07:09:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
we dont have to discuss this, it is a given fact.

With a .308 your are always going to have overpenetration on a head, arm, or leg shot.

And what does a consistant first round flyer have to do with the twist rate if the following shots are all Ok ? Blaser still has not solved the problem and the unit in question is on their third set of 24 rifles.

torsten <>
germany - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 09:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address:


last info on the Blaser first and second modell is that the problem is in part caused by the scope mount on the barrel.

torsten <>
germany - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 10:46:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Could your "stainless" Laps be Titanium? Probably not, but just a thought.
Mark D <>
London, UK - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 12:16:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tim O'Haire: I have a Rogaurd finish on a McBros rifle. In days out in the rain the water just keeps beading up. Never a sign of rust. Can't say how it might hold up to salt water though and the finish does get dinged and scratched but haven't seen any rust at all. In my opinion save the money on the teflon stuff and just have the smith bead blast and matte finish, then paint it yourself. This seems to keep the water beading and the rust away and you can change it to however you like. Even if it's ugly, ugly guns shoot well.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 13:45:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
RE:Teflon finishes-Anyone interested in Teflon type finishes for their SWS should check out Bear Coat. It is a product offered by RockyMountain Arms, it has at least 6 color choices (3 shades of black, green, a silver in use by SF, and a tiger stripe camo. They coat all metal parts except the bore and springs, have a 10 day turnaround time, and a LIFETIME warranty. I had two long guns done by them, they are consummate pro's, and the finished product is beautiful. Stocks can be done to match the rifle too. Check them out. I believe the web address is
Seuss <>
PA, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 14:21:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
I agree with what the others have said, I my opinion the 223 a little on the light side, but don't get me wrong, I have killed a lot of coyotes with a 223 but I have seen a lot run off to die because of not being hit hard enough. I would go with the hotter 22s or my favorite, the 6MMs, they really do the job, with my all time favorite being the 243IMP with a 70grBT. If you call in wooded or brushy country you may be able to use the 223 if you keep your shots from 150yds on in. They are and incrediably tough animal and I really admire them so I figure I owe them a good clean kill when ever possible. If your in it for the fur then thats a different story but if your in it just for the hunt then go with the hotter calibers. Old yote bait can probably add a lot more to this for you, he's forgot more about yotes than most people will ever learn.

Ditto, on what Wes said on the 6.5x284 reamers. I had taked to several 1000yd shooters and one who builds them and they all said about the samething. Let me know and I will e.mail you his name and address, if you want it. He was extremly helpful and very knowledgable on them.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 14:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Interesting Facts...
Professor Joseph Olson of the Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul Minnesota has produced another interesting new statistic.

Professor Olson looked up the crime statistics for all of the counties in the election, and came up with this:

Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1

Since democrats are 6X more likely to commit murder than conservatives, I would suggest that laws be passed that democrats NOT be allowed to purchase firearms.

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 14:28:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Time to provoke some activity.

1) Preparing range cards in hostile military locations... what is the likelihood of being detected if using a civilian or military laser ranging device during daylight hours... is it common practice for foreign military to employ detection devices during the day? (use recent world engagements as examples - Somalia, Chechnya, Kosovo...)

2) Camo. During the recent stalk exercise at Storm Mountain, one participant succeeded in scoring a 100 with only a veil and a very, very poor ghillie made from a nomex flight suit. With the exception of really proximate stalks, it would seem that just a piece of camo'ed mesh with lots of natural veg would suffice... comments? Stalking at Storm Mountain does not involve "life risk"... what differences between "real world" and practice can you illustrate?

3) Packing and preparing for the high desert. I'm planning on attending the ASA class this coming summer. The class is held in the high New Mexico desert and this "jersey" boy doesn't know squat about how to get along in that environment. Other than water quantity, what adjustments would be recommended to adapt my gear? I'm planning on doing a ton of aerobic work just prior to the class since there is gonna be a big elevation adjustment for my body to deal with...any suggestions on how to best prep for the thin air?

4) A rifle question.. I had a round that did not get properly seated while hand loading...when I could not close the bolt and attempted to eject the round, the bullet pulled from the case and spilled IMR 4064 into the action. One grain became lodged in the stock remington bolt release and cause it to become stuck in the open position. I am not impressed with the field reliability of the rem bolt release design. I have seen an alternate bolt release device in the Sinclair's catalog, does anyone have one of these installed and what do you think of it.

5) While firing my rifle in the standing supported position, I encountered a problem when my exposed Left index finger became wedged between the bipod mount and the object I was using for fore-end support. The resulting fractured finger was unpleasant. Does anyone have a favorite technique for this position that prevents this type of injury?

6) First aid kit... do any of you carry one? What do you have in it?

7) Field rifle "support" kit, what to put in it, what type of container do you use...This is something you put in your pack, right?

8) Entrenching tool ...are they all either too heavy or too flimsy? If there is a good one out there, I haven't seen it yet.

Kevin Mussack... I think your nickname should be "Andy's dad". This will become progressively attractive as he matures his skills and begins to out shoot you.... ... you know sooner or later your gonna have to say you taught him everything he knows.
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 15:04:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, Bill Rogers:
Regarding the 7mm Rem Mag. It's a fine and accurate cartridge. The Secret Service uses them, I use them and a bunch of people who can really shoot us them. My favorite "tactical" rifle is in 7mm Mag, I've used it to shoot several 600 and 1000yd matches and have always been in the mid to upper 190's(out of 200 for those who don't know) The gun has shot 3/4inch five shot groups at 200 yds. It averages right around 1&1/4 inches at 200yds. The 168gn Berger or JLK VLD bullet leaves EVERY 30 caliber bullet in the dust at practical achieved velocities(NO, I'm not talking 240gn Sierras in a 30-378 or such non-sense) and the 180's look to be better, but haven't had the chance to test them yet. The Sierra 168 MK in 7mm has got to be their most underrated bullet. They claim a BC of 0.496, but my experience leads me to believe it has to be better than this. The 162 A-max has worked well for me, but I haven't tried their new design. If you haven't noticed, Hornady has switched their A-max design around with a different tip and new boat-tail. I have 500 but have not switched over from my stock of old A-max's yet. Looks like the BC will be less, but we'll see. If accuracy stays good, I may stay with them. So don't think the 7mm Rem Mag is inaccurate, because it ain't so. Can't say about the 7STW, don't have one, to be honest not really interested.

On the 7-08 and Benchmark powder, don't bother, it's too fast. I have had good luck with N160, H4350, IMR 4350 and powders in that general range of burn rate. W760 or H414 will probably work well if you like ball powders. RL-15 and N140 are very accurate, but don't have the velocity. It's makes for a very good load, but faster is better if you can get good accuracy IMO. As I mentioned above, the 7mm bullets leave the 30-caliber bullets in the dust for ratio of BC vs velocity in most cases, and since you can generally drive them faster in 7mm at comparable BC's they work better, especially in the smaller capacity cases such as the 308 where you can't efficiently go to a heavier bullet to increase your BC. Sure, you can use a 220MK or 210 Berger in a 308, but then your trajectory goes to hell. Can you tell I like the 7mm's? Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 15:33:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey folks, thanks for the info on ring lapping. We have divided oppinions on doing the tops,but I'll see what I can do.Anyway, Lito,Torsten, Bravo,Bolt, and Ken, Thank You.
Hey Ken,on your 700PSS link, what's the deal with the snake in the color scheme photo? I hope to God that's a trick photo!
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 15:49:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jim Mitchell: For a full sized e-tool, the Glock spade works good. Its light, tough and the thing works as a tool. Its big, though. Pricey too. Some outdoor shops around here carry little fixed handle shovels that look like the e-tools the Germans carried in WWII. Those are about 18" long, they work fairly good, they are light and tough and are pretty cheap. You can shop in a good garden center for the lon shondled shovels with the sleek little shovel part. Cut the handle off. Last is my favorite. Little plastic gardening trowells. They cost about $5, and are available at any garden shop. Except for the Army e-tool I keep in my truck, I use the little plastic one ten times as much as the rest of the others put together.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 16:27:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am on a police dept. and I have a Remington PSS and want to buy a scope, I am currently looking at a Springfield Armory 4-14x56 Mil Dot Government Model 7.62mm. Do you know any good or bad about these scopes and what would you recomend.
Coty Pack <"http://">
albert, ok, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 16:38:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have an E.A.A. Witness. A friend used it and told me that he had a "stove pipe malfunction with it." What does "stove pipe" mean? Thanks for your help!
Wolfgang <>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 16:59:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
RE 7mm. I have both a 7mm Wby and a 300 win, the 300 with 190 MKs will hit consistently at 1000yds all day. The 7mm starts to loose after 500 yds even with some of the bullets mentioned. The only 7mm bullets that the rifle seems to like are Nosler ballistic tips and heavy non-boat tails with RE22 or H4831SC powder. Also the cold bore shot seems to be inconsistent compared to the 300. The Berger VLDs have been the most consistent as far as a match round for the 7mm goes. The 300 will shoot anything. Both rifles are custom the 7mm has a Douglas barrel and the 300 has a Schnieder. I've found the quality of the A-Max and Hornady match rounds along with Speer to be very inconsistent in weight compared to Berger or Sierra. It seems only about 40% in a box of 500 are in the +/- .1gr weight as opposed to 80% or better of the others and not many more are +/- .2. Iv'e also found that the 7mm looses accuracy when 80+ rounds have been fired within a short period of time. The 300 doesn't seem to have this problem. My preference is to use the 7mm as a hunting rifle out to 500 yds. Great Caribou gun. I also have a 30-378 Wby and that seems to like Berger 210s and imr 7828. My only problem is that the 300 goes right through steel targets within 600 yds so I can't imagine what the 30-378 would do at +3300 fps velocities. This tends to piss off the owner of the targets, especially when they are expensive. I haven't been able to do much with the 6.5-06 but it was showing good promise with 142 mks and re19. But until then the 308 still has them all beat.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 17:02:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
Wolfgang, a stovepipe malfunction of a pistol is when the brass is extracted from the chamber, but not fully ejected from the weapon. They often end up sticking straight up out of the receiver (therefore "stovepipe"). Many people can force a semi-auto handgun to do this by using a really limp grip. (Imagine Al Bore firing a handgun.)
Flattop <>
Confusion, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 17:15:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
If Al Bore even fired a pistol over the caliber of .22 it would most likely break his wrist only causing him to whine more!!!

thank you all for the email regarding my upcoming rifle purchase think i may have found the perfect on the Nor-Cal precision base tactical, have not committed yet and would like any information specific to this rifle and the gunsmith Jerry Rice in general

Tnaks in advance
Geoff Ovens <>
Raleigh, NC, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 17:27:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

O.K. guys,another question: What really influences a consistent ccbs? is it barrel quality, bedding, the load you are using,or just bad juju? If we assume a propperly bedded rifle,cleaned right,not copper fouled, what factor/combination of factors is at work here, and how do you improve on the situation ?
trying to gain knowledge, Loper
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 18:12:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Has anybody ever dealt with a company called Cuzco Inc. out of Oklahoma. They seem to have a lot of pre-ban stuff in new or 98% condition? Just curious, I might treat myself to a Xmas present and I'm looking for an M4.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 18:35:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
Carl: for me the cheif thing was having a DRY bore. After patching it out a few times, it shot directly to target. I've got a feeling that the rest or what you asked is a major contributor as well.

Wolfgang: that stove pipe jam is the result of the pistol trying to tell you to sell it and purchase a CZ-75. Seriously, I made the same mistake, had the EAA, and got rid of it. The real thing, the CZ, is a much better fit and finished pistol, not to mention trigger slickness! I don't like the 75B as much as the older ones (which I still kick myself for getting rid of). If you can find one of the old scalloped ones, that's a keeper!

Patriot Jim: I suggest carrying two rifles and two packs to get used to the high desert. That way, when you get there, you can carry my stuff too ;-) Seriously, I doubt there will be any problems. Heck, if I did it, anyone can (and everyone did). Did I mention sunscreen? HA!

Thanks for the explaination of the clip slots. I just couldn't figure out why folks would have them on a scoped rifle. I figured I must have been missing something. NOPE! What a waste of dough. BTW: I tried the stripper clips in service rifle comp once, didn't like it!

On finishes: I've got to admit that I didn't like the Roguard, but I didn't try it on a rifle, but a pistol. You can see plenty of metal, but it's not rusted. But that's the nature of a Glock, I doubt it would rust if submerged in a 5% saline solution for a day. I'm giving the Bearcoat a good test, not on a rifle, but M-14 mags. When I feel that I've got enough experience with it to talk intelligently, I'll let you know my thoughs. I think it'll do well, as they parkerize with the newest formula BEFORE putting the BearCoat on.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
keeping stuff locked and loaded!, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 18:36:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have found it to be a combination of things. If you have a problem thats causing it, it will always do it until corrected. If you have a rifle that is built with no external factors (Bedding, Barrel touching etc,) affecting it then as Bravo said a good dry barrel is the most consistant. I have had rifles that would shoot the first round into a spot about .5" high and .5" right everytime or just the opposit for whatever reason. I even had a custom built rifle that would shoot the first 5 groups into the same spot then would move up as it warmed up, not much but around .75 just enough to aggrivate me(HA). The bottom line is that if the rifle will shoot POA on the CBS then if you clean it the same each time it will probably always shoot in the same spot on the CBS the first time out. This has been my findings anyway and like Bravo I have my bore dry the last thing I do after cleaning is run about 4 to 5 dry patches through it just to make sure it is dry.

The State Patrol bought 6 of the H&S Tactical rifles and I broke in 5 of the 6 and got the initial data on them to 500yds. Out of the 5 they all averaged .6MOA all the way to 500yds using Federal Match. One averaged .4s at 100yds and all these rifles had less than 100 rounds shot through them and I know they will only get better as they shoot in. I would buy one in a heart beat, the workmanship is top notch and they are finished off in black teflon. I know Jerry builds a good rifle too from what Mike says so you couldn't go wrong with either one. George Gardner may be another one to look at I think he has been on sight a couple of times and I have heard good things on his guns also.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 20:36:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Consider this a gratuitous plug for Geoff Corn. If we're talking about good gunsmiths, he's my first bet. No offense to Jerry, George, or anyone else, Geoff is just the first guy that returned my faith in gunsmiths rather than gun plumbers. I'm sure these guys are great too, anyone that Mike suggests, I'd rest well with too. Geoff is a great guy, even for a squid boy ;-)
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
the banana republic, now awaiting it's day in "kangaroo court", USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 21:18:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jim Mitchell wrote:
>8) Entrenching tool ...are they all either too heavy or too flimsy? If there is a good one out there, I haven't seen it yet.<

I've always had a special place in my heart for a good E-Tool. I've broken enough Tri-fold E-tools to fill a Gama-goat. The old steel and wood WWII style are nearly indestructable but are indeed big and heavy. I've only recently gotten a Glock E-tool and it is a neat item but I expect it is as fragile as the USGI Tri-fold units. A straight shovel like the "Spatsnaz" throwing shovel isn't much good getting your fighting hole armpit deep. You really need the L-shape for scooping.

In H2H combat a sharpened E-tool is the 20th century battleaxe. You can keep your K-Bars and Bayonets. I'll choose a sharpened E-tool any day. The flat can be used to take prisoners and the edge to take heads. It's a real "mincer-masher, slicer-dicer and boy does it catch fish."

As far as calling me "Andy's Dad" it's ok. The ungrateful snot is kicking my butt every Wednesday night at Sporter Rifle. It looks like he could be top junior in the state this year.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 21:40:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim, reference your big fieldcraft questions posting.

1. If you want to use your laser for data card prep, daytime is probably the best time to do it (just watch that the glint from the front of your GVS laser doesn't give you away. The same thing goes with any glass lenses, as we've busted people using even small mini-binos [the kind that fit in ammo pouches] with 30mm objectives). Use your METT-T planning factors and an enemy analysis if you're facing a sophisticated bad guy).

2. Same thing goes for the stalk. Avenues of approach and key terrain can provide cover and concealment using plain old masking techniques (the bad guys can't see through solid objects or thick trees any more than you can). Remember, a ghillie doesn't make you invisible, it just breaks up your outline when there's little to blend in with or hide/mask behind. Depending on how far you are away from your target, your cover/concealment [urban? Thick woods? Normandy hedgerows? Haitian or North Korean hills?], and your target's defensive posture (aggressive patrolling or only sentries? Guard duty or not? Siesta or khat/ganja break? Agressive unit or grab-ass 2nd echelon or rear area / support unit?). Some of the best cammy clothing ever developed was the old OG 107 (olive drab) jungle fatigues after a couple of washings.

The nice thing for a newbie getting busted at Storm is you're not dead. File it away for its training value -- "Hell, I won't do something THAT stupid again!" That's why we have training exercises.

3. As part of your mission acclimatization and prep for New Mexico, get some travel brochures and see what the terrain generally looks like. OG 107s or khaki BDUs? US desert BDUs sometimes stick out like a sore thumb in an area with lots of green sage, rocks, and trees. Get a Camelback. Start a good aerobic program (run five times a week, You don't have to go far, probably just 2-3 miles at your own pace).

4. As for the Rem 700 / M40X bolt release, try carrying a dime. If it jams again, push the bolt half-way forward. Put the dime into the space between the rear receiver ring and the bolt body, behind the left lug. Push it in with your thumb, and the dime pushes down on the bolt release. Pull the bolt to the rear and it clears the receiver (also pulling out your dime). You can, of course, also do this with one of the small Allen wrenches or the spare firing pin in your field kit.

I've seen the Sinclair release, and it looks alright (probably has a small spring to pop the release button back into the "locked" position, which you risk getting rusty / sticky in field conditions). This feature is for benchresters who are required to remove the bolt completely from the action in between five-round match strings.

McMillan solved this (on my old detachment's rifles, anyway) by using a plain hex bolt on the right side of the receiver of the M86 and M87. Take it out with your hex wrench and the bolt comes straight out (no buttons or springs), but lose the hex wrench and you're hosed. Don't forget that long-grain powder like 4064 can also lock up your action if you have tight bolt face/lug clearance on your receiver).

5. "Doctor, my finger hurts when I do this."

"Well then, don't do that."

Sorry, Jim, ya walked into that one. You might try a good padded shooting glove (with fingers) like an Anschutz, Gehmann, or Creedmoor. If you don't have something like that, try a GI black or rapelling glove with the green wool liner.

6. First aid kit is exactly that. What do you think you'll need? You should have a medic / corpsman back at the unit / start area.

7. Field maintenance kit. Otis pull-through cable cleaning kit, or GI rod (to pull patches from breech to muzzle). If you need to clean off your firing pin, hook the bottom release part of the firing pin assembly on the laces of your jungle boot while you turn the bolt body. Your Seekonk torque wrench for action bolts and scope ring bolts. Back up iron sights or maybe an Aimpoint on a QD mount if you think you'll need them.

8. E-tools? Most are useless. If you really need to dig at night, think about a real D-handle shovel.
Dave Liwanag <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 23:03:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr. Torsten,

I don't understand your point in the matter, i have never had this problem, if the problem itself is in the scope mount, "mounted on the barrel", i dont see the reason-- try and understand what i'm trying to poit out, what your trying to say is: --when the barrel gets "hot", then the scope mount works? --i don't understand your point--. I suggest to your friends in Germany, use the 168gr HPBT, try the system with and without the muzzel BRK, i personaly don't have the problem of the 1st shot wondering 2" off target. One last thing, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use the same batch number on the ammo. When you change you must re-zero. That's if you want that mythical sub .12 - .17 MOA groups.


One last thing, for anyone that can give me some info:

Has the MAUSER SR97 .338 LM made it to the US market? If so, what does it retail for??
Fred <>
MIA, FL, USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 23:14:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim: New Mexico terrain question: Go rent an old Paul Newman western called "Hombre". It looks like that. Its not bad. The Camelback is a good idea.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, December 01, 2000 at 23:46:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Maybe someone here can provide me with guidance. I recently built up a Bushmaster lower with a bull barrel ASA upper purchased at a local show. I added a Smith N/M carrier and bolt at this time, along with a Jewell trigger. Call me crazy but the thought of an accurate AR on a coyote trip was too much too bear. One huge problemo. With Fed NM ammo, it pulls the primers out every two to three shots, which sometime get the bolt quite jammed up for a while. Any ideas for a fix, such as bad headspacing perhaps? Any help offered will be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much.

Bob <>
So County, CA, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 01:34:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bob, sounds like the reamer used to cut your chamber has a short rifling leade which is causing your bullet ogive to jam into the rifling. This will raise your pressures and blow the primers out of the case head. You should send it to a gunsmith who specializes in match ARs. You might try standard GI or commercial 55-grain ball, which has a different ogive shape.

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 01:47:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can someone point me to some details on the New Mexico classes this summer? I emailed Mike, but he appears to be out of town. Thanks!
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 01:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Coyotes and .223's; Pat and CDC are right on with this as far as I can tell. I use em a lot and they are on the "light" side. I call em my Varmint Lights" I really don't think you can beat .243 and .25-06's for puttin them away with reasonable pelt damage. I use .308 with V-max's these days cause hides aren't worth anything. I love the Mildots when I get time to use them and the dots are nice for hold overs when you don't. .220 Swift's and even .22-250 are good up close 400 or less but tend to be a little shy at long ranges where they blow around and at those speeds the bullets are a little likely to blow up and be fragile or be too hard (@4000 fps) and don't expand. If there aren't a lot of people and livestock you can use the Sierra Match king in the .308 it is accurate has no entrance wound and a nice little 2" crater where it leaves. V-max's in 168 grain have the range and the power to be eliminators for control work jobs where Cattle and People are around. Actually I might use .223 for these kinds of jobs though. Most dogs die when tagged with a V-max but I don't like sloppy kills and when they face you dead on or run straight away the .22's go to hell quickly.
I'm going to try to stay with the .308's and 168's or 175's... practice makes perfect and it's easier to learn just one bullet path. I may stray but we will see. This was why Elmer Keith used such big Caliber's he told my deceased hunting partner one time. It wasn't for the good shots... it was for the bad ones. He quickly added "Hell, any damn thing will kill em if you hit em right!"
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 01:56:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks Bravo and others for the reply on the Savage .223 and how well it'll put them 'yotes down.

I think I need to put in a few more cents on why I selected .223 instead of something hotter (IE: 6mm, 22-250, .243) First off I'm on a budget, so being able to buy 1000rds of 62gr FMJ for practice and still have money to eat that week is one factor. Another is the variety of loads available in factory ammo, as I dont reload yet; but when I do get a press and dies, it's cheap to reload too. And another is choice of rifles: many types, cheap to $1000+... Not to mention I can shoot that .223 all day and not get a black and blue sholder.

One other rifle I'm considering, besides the Savage,(dont snicker, I'm not exactly a sniper :) is a TC Contender Carbine... There are lots of barrels available (just depends on what you want to spend) it's short and handy, not too heavy, accurate... and there is a local Dealer that has a Carbine frame and buttstock on clearance for $210... So I pick up a barrel after Christmas and I'll have all spring and summer to get it set up for next winters 'yote hunting. I have a love for single shots that I can't shake... (I'm still praying God will drop a origanal Sharps in .40-90 on my head one day... with a tang mounted ladder sight marked to 2000 yards. :) Thats what I call "one shot- one kill." Anyone have any experience with Contenders?

As for the country I'll be hunting.. Bravo knows, Utah sage...high desert type stuff. But I'll be calling them in under 200 yards, and wouldn't ever take a shot at a coyote over 300 (and that'd have to be under perfect conditions). I've seen a few 'yotes hit in my time, and I know how much respect they should command. Like I said earlier, I plan to do as much practice as I can in the off season so I have confidance and skill when the time comes to take a shot at a living animal. Selling the pelts is a possibility with a .223, but my '06, even with 125gr varmint loads, will tear a big hole.

I'm trying to fill the gap between my 10/22 Target and the .30-06 that I use for deer. I shoot 500rds minimum a week with my .22 but I dont think my shoulder is up to even 50 rounds of .30-06 right now.

Enough blabber from this FNG for a while...
Adam--Utah <>
Ogden , Utah, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 02:12:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin M. - gamma goat...

Kevin - did I hear you say gamma goat? Now you're dating yourself... I guess I am too by calling you on that one :)
Cool vehicles - noisy as hell though....

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 02:47:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bob (Blown Primers)

You mentioned that you put the rifle together from parts but you were not clear as to the fact that the barrel was actually finish reamed or checked for head space. As already mentioned if the bullets are forced into the lands this will cause pressure problems. It might be as simple as having a gunsmith check the headspace and finish ream to the desired final dimensions. You will have to decide to have it finished with a match chamber or standard chamber.

Regarding the use of .223's on coyotes...bullet selection and shot placement are what's important. You just have to decide if you want to blow them out of their socks (so to speak) and pile up in a heap where they stood and have nothing that is salvageable or have a pelt with minimal damage. Make your selections and have at it, heart/lung or head shot is your choice.
Byron <>
CA, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 03:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

whats with the coyotes down there they must be alot bigger and tougher than the ones up here or there wearing a flack jacket. the one up here i wouldn't hesistate to shoot one with a 223 out to 600yds and haven had to take two shut at any of them. take them in the head when you can or right threw the front shoulders. use 75gr a-max at 3050 works well. Great fun calling them in some time you even get multiple targets. got let them get close for first shot get the second on the run what a blast. Alway go out with friend he calls i shoot.
thats about all i got to say about that Jason out
Jason <>
Canada - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 03:34:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Geoff Ovens,

I have three of Jerry's rifles and I am mighty happy! I have one of the Nighthawks in .308 and one in .300 Win Mag. I also have a lighter standard tactical .308 from him as well. They are all 1/4 moa rifles,

I also have a rifle in transit from George Gardner. I have used his stuff as well and it is mighty nice as well. When shopping around for a custom rifle builder I suggest that you give them a call, talk to people who shoot their stuff, and if you get a chance to pick one up and feel it or even shoot it by all means do so!

I was in your spot about two years ago, I asked about a high quality custom rifle builder in Northern California. Mike Miller suggested that I give Jerry a call. I ended up ordering the rifle sight unseen after chatting with Jerry two or three times. I wasn't until I had actually put money down that I actually hooked up with Mr. Undude and shot his Nighthawk Rifle.

Jerry's wife also bakes great cookies and makes a wonderful cup of coffee!

George Gardner has also been a great guy to work with. His rifles also shoot and look great!. I have a number of custom pistols from several different high end smiths so I couldn't resist ordering one from him as well.

I wholeheartedly recommend either one of these gunsmiths, and they are also truly honorable people!

Grasshopper, Give mike another ring, he is in town. The ASA class should be a blast, I will be there for the entire 8 days as well.


Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 03:46:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Adam on the Wassach Front: I'm with you on the 223 for cheapness. That's the caliber I shoot the most of rifle wise. I can get 1000 rounds out of 4 pounds instead of 6, and the same ratio holds for matchkings. They're fun too! The only bad part is that I don't see the 'yotes ever sit there and look at me, they're on the move ALWAYS. I'd ALWAYS listen to Wild Bill, if he advocates the poly tips, that's what I'd do!

Grasshopper: drop me a line on what you want to know about the class. If I can't answer 'em, I'll sure be able to match you up with someone that can. Heck, I'd bet Micheal knows as much about it as anyone, but I'll always help if I can. Should be the party of the new millenium ;-)

Fred: I had to giggle. Torsten isn't wet behind the ears, and has always given me really great info. If he says something is some way, I'd BET that he says that because he's witnessed or lived it. Why there's a difference, I don't know, but you won't catch me questioning Torsten!

Ken and Kevin: what's a gamma goat? HA! DOUBLE HA! Just wanted you guys to feel your age ;-) Our resident (at work) sniper, the guy that had the Army issue 460 Weatherby, talked about riding them, he's in his mid 30's too. An old guy reservist asked him the hard one: who had them at your age?

iiii's: so where can I get someone to whip me up a blade to my spec from this S7?
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
Proud of Lady Liberty, and Miss Dixie, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 03:54:09 (ZULU) (your host address:


Help! If any of you have Bill Wylde's e-mail address please sent it to me. I have a serious 6.5 X .284 question to pose to him and have managed to lose his address in a system crash.

Gama Goats: OK, I remember them, too. They were being phased out in the seventies, but I remember we had some at 9th Engineer Support Bn (Okinawa) in 1979/80. Great go anywhere vehicle, but maintenance intensive.

Adam/FNG: Welcome aboard! Don't consider yourself new. I'm fairly new, myself. The important thing is we all contribute to the greater whole? Some with information/some with brewing recipes...

Coyotes: Have a bunch here in West Coast (Pacific NW Rain Forest)of Oregon. Calling them works well using a shotgun and 00 buck. Yes, it's close in most areas. Other than that my .223 CQB setup works well and gives you some realistic "target acquisition" scenarios.

E-tools: OK, so I'm an old fart, but I used to carry my wooden handled e-tool to the field. I still have it. Hell for stout and can be a great weapon, too. Knew a gunny ("E-tool Koontz") that had three confirmed with one!
Those folding pieces of shit have caused more injuries than I can count and are next to useless. Cratering charges work well to dig positions...;-)

7mm Rem Mag an Sniping: Have heard of numerous folks using it effectively. I put it in the same class as .300 Magnum. Accurate, but I can do better with the 6.5 X .284 without the recoil. Still, use what is available and "floats your boat"...
If you haven't already guessed, I'm not a big fan of Magnums...

6.5 X 55: Those using this cartridge might want to give JJ Conways 6MM Vias article a read in Precision Shooting.

More 6.5 X .284 testing on the 'morrow. Will report with results.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 04:09:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Adam; I think the fact that Uncle makes .223 Brass is what kept me in .223's for so long. Actually a lot of my shooting is control work. A .223 will control coyotes under 300 yards. And although someone said they would shoot at 600 yards and says he is using a 75 grain bullet. That's fine and the trajectory is a bit more than most people call flat. If you're going to shoot that trajectory you may as well shoot a .308 for tactical practice if nothing else. I guess it's a personal thing between me and these dogs but I don't like to wound them and have them crawl off to die a lingering death. Make no mistake they are tough as leather in Canada or here too. If your willing to pick your shots and shoot nothing but good ones you're probably fine and I've got to tell you, I've done in a lot of dogs with .223's but I'm beginning to doubt it's the best way to go. Back in the fur days it was a completely different game. Now it's too may coyotes and a mange plague we are trying to eliminate as many as possible to keep the mange from spreading. If they all die off in winter kill we won't have anything to shoot at. Catch 22.
Byron can I ask you how many coyotes you've taken and how long you've been at it...not contesting just wondering.
Adam; I do know and speak Contender. Go stainless if it's in wet country, in Utah it probably doesn't matter though. They shoot well enough but the ordinary ones are 1.5moa in .223 as a rule. Most shots as you say are 200 or less and that would work fine. We don't like to have them come in @ 500yds. and get by with it but most of the time they do. It educates them and they can smell you at 600.
Could be I need bigger guns because you guys shoot better than I...
I don't keep records but a lot of my shots "up to 30%" are at moving (usually running flat out) coyotes in heavy sage brush. Things don't always work the way you'd like. They run a little like Kangaroo's in that kind of cover. Hope we aren't boring the Tach people too much with "Hunting Country".
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 04:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bob, if you need a good gunsmith concerning NM AR's try Derrick Martin at Accuracy Speaks. He is located in Mesa, AZ. Derrick is probably one of the best there is when dealing with NM AR's, even if he himself won't admit it. I don't remember the number but it is in 1411. He's a good guy who won't rip you off. Give him a call.
M Taylor <>
El Paso, TX, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 04:13:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
oop's guys
A miss quote on the 75gr a-max it onlt 2950f/sec if some one out there was saying to him no f##ken way. The coyote are pretty laid back here they don't run till there buddy get shot.
Jason out

Jason <>
Canada - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 04:23:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

I forgot something to comment on the 7mm A-max bullets with a new nose job. Ken M Pointed out that it will loose some bal coef. and I too believe it has too. They just got a little over optimistic and got the thing so pointy that you Can't load it in the Magazine and be close enough to the Lands to reduce the free bore to a acceptable level. We shot 2 700 VS models with 168 gr. .308 Amax's both the old and new types. The new ones shot well within the 1 moa limit and the old ones... the first design shortened to get in the magazine when 2 or 3 moa in some cases. By Lengthening them to fit properly and loading single shot they were well within the 1 moa again. Sierra Match Kings under the same conditions were 25 percent more accurate in all cases.
Just thought you might be interested in that. I haven't attempted to figure an actual Bal. Coef. on any of these based on the path. It would be hard to do in this damned wind out here.
Tony M. What were the firearms you were shooting there in the 7mm. It sounds like maybe the barrel might not be quite as good as the 30. Most 7's don't take a back seat under 1000. Actually this 7mm is between the 6.5 and 7.62 and should be about the same ballistically.
Nobody mentioned the old .280 Remington. ONe of the most accurate 7's I've ever used and the most ignored for that matter.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 04:32:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
Greetings Ya'll !! After my last post about a month ago and my **righteous indignation**(Sorry 'lito) I figured it was time I sat down and reviewed the situation (at the time it was OAL ammo) and also do a personal check. Much better and my meds have finally balanced out !! Don't ask, it's almost embarasskin'..heh heh.

I have been lurking/commenting/reading/learning/reviewing on this site since about Summer '95 or was it Spring '96 ? anyway,been here awhile.That said, all you NEWBIES(no disrespect intended) **LISTEN UP!!** Thank you, lots and I mean LOTS of good info in archives and in the tips section. Wouldn't hurt to actually go back one afternoon(or two) and read all you the heck out of "killin' that Nauga again"(read waaay back, you'll understand)and it might save some of the sarcasm for those who really deserve it ! On to specifics ...

Back when I was more financially irresponsible and had less important things to worry about (wife & mortgage..etc) I rode a LaVerda 1200cc all the time in the Great NW (Ft Lewis and other tourists spots) had a small problem with the manifold and exhaust always rusting...found a solution-KalGard. Worked great and then I found they made something for firearms- GunCoat. I used it on several handguns and up until a few years back still had one of the Colt Series 70's that I had used the GunCoat on. Finish was still there, albeit a few wear areas, not bad for almost 13-15 years of use !! Now the stuff is found at Have just used the light grey and the on a Ruger 678G and it is fantastic. About the cost of what Brownells is asking but you have more colors available. Check it out.

VarGet- Best location I know of is out of TN. 8# keg runs $130 USD. includes HazMat. Not bad prices on Sierra bulk bullets either.

On scopes...IF you CAN'T see IT..ya CAN'T HIT IT !! Buy the best you can afford. I currently have 2 rifles topped with Leupold Vari-x III's , one a LR 4.5-14x50mm and the other is in 40mm, just a plain III. Both are duplex(sorry, I am mil-dot challenged)but they meet my needs.
Current hunting rifle is carrying a fixed M8 6x. Works !!!

1st Aid kit... ALWAYS carry one, just like my Cold Steel and ammo. Pack it to suit conditions..plenty of other sites that discuss that.

Last(almost) but not least... anyone know the difference between canister and bulk BL(C)-2 ?? Seems like my bulk(surplus) is hotter than "store bought". Comments ? Does anyone know of the site showing Dubya and AlgWhore having a shoot-out and gwhore has a trigger lock he can't unlock ??

WillAdams <>
gladidon't livein, FLA !!, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 04:42:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


If you requested that the laps be made out of stainless, your 'smith may have just grabbed whatever he had handy. In many cases, that "handy" material would be what is known as "300" series stainless. One of the charicteristics of this series is that it work hardens. The more you cut it, the harder it gets. If this is what your smith used, he is probably more frustrated than you are. Standard machining techniques don't work very well with this stuff. If you take tiny little cuts with your lathe or mill, it just keeps getting worse. A quick test is with a magnet. 300 series steels are not magnetic. The problem from a lapping perspective with this material is that it may be too hard to "take" the lapping compound. Laps are usually made of a material that is considerably softer than the material to be lapped. The lapping compound imbeds itself into the softer metal and polishes the harder stuff. I suggest that you contact your smith again and see if he would make you some out of brass. If your smith is too aggravated to even consider making another lap, send me an email and I will try to help.

I hope this helps.

Best regards
Darrel Fritts <>
Piedmont, SD, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 05:30:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Will Adams: you're looking for World Net Daily, one of my very few chosen news sources. Look under "cartoons". There's a good one in there of Wyle E Coyote handing clitton a lit stick of dynamite too. Good stuff! You're after algor and Bush playing "dualing banjos". HA!

Wild Bill: WTF? Hunting country? You didn't mention the constitution or militia even once! HA! My uncle loves the 280, thinks the world of it. I've been trying to talk myself out of a 7X57 loaded hot to duplicate the 280 in a sturdy action. Even tried to get 'Lito to tell me it wouldn't work. He gave it one HECK of a try too! I still don't see the reason it wouldn't work (with appropriate match reamer), one is a 57 mm case, the other a 61, but mostly that's just air space on home-loaded ammo, right? C'mon, I'm depending on you, talk me out of it ;-)
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
the banjo pickin state of Utah, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 05:33:39 (ZULU) (your host address:


-New Intel-

If you are:
2)Army Retired
3)National Guard
4)Army Reservist
5)Dept of the Army Civilian Employee

The "Army Knowledge Online" website (DOD) will provide you with a FREE email account.

I have been told that some features are:
*accessibility from anywhere you have internet access.
*50 Megs of storage for emails.
*you can keep the same account if you change units,
go from A/D to the Guard or Reserves, or retire, etc.
*plus since it is a DOD server, you can conduct military
business and communications and maintain OPSEC of your
info, something that not always possible with a commercial
email account.

Be aware that you will need your LES (or similar) with your PEBD and ETS info, as well as your SSN to establish the account.

Go to and select "new user" to register for your Full Account. (Or click on my name below for the link.)

It looks like a good thing, and tommorow at drill I am getting our UA to enroll the whole damn unit. No more BullS**t about, "I didn't get the word" or "I don't have an account".

Sorry to all for tying up "ROASTER" space for this.
It just seemed like a useful tool that you all should know about.

***Now back to your regularly scheduled program.***
CRC <>
- Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 05:39:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

I forgot to add that once you got approved, goto (or click my name below) to login to your mailbox.

CRC <>, - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 05:59:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Good Evening;
I know this is not the right place for this question, but it is the only place I can get to(I am not very computer wise)any way I am trying to find a holster for a 6 1/2 inch Taurus Raging Bull can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks Rabon
Rabon <>
AlaskaI, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 06:13:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
On Benchmark powder:
I use it for 223s.
It loads denser than Varget, which is great for those itty-bitty 223 casings.
It shoots with little variation in speed. I recorded a spread of 64fps and an SD of 16. In the morning at 38F it shot an average of 2912. In the afternoon it averaged an excellent 2916 at 53F(I was shooting for 2900).
It metered very well and even better than the Varget.
I have made it my standard powder for 223.
Hank <>
USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 06:54:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Have any of you guys shot the Truvelo series of rifles from South Africa? I have heard that they are very accurate & reliable.

Any feedback much appreciated

Michael Chadwick <>
Muscat, Ghubrah, Oman - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 08:38:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: McBros Tubbs 2000

I was just wandering around the cyber-world yesterday and came across the Tubbs 2000 on the McBros page.
This thing looks neat!
Bolt Action, Detachable Magazine, ala. AR freefloated barrel
Looks like it came off the set of "Starship Troopers".
Come on guys, why haven't we heard about this rifle or did I just sleep through it again?
No fiberglass, No bedding, No barrel channel to worry about getting clogged with debris, No torque screws to worry about, It breaks down into a smaller package, takes 10 or 20 round magazines,
Somebody stop me!!! I'm reaching for the check book again.
"Moe, Larry, Cheese!!!!!"

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 11:52:58 (ZULU) (your host address:


From this you should be able to regain my address.

J. J. Conway used his 6MM Vais in the Algonquin 800-900M F Class four-man team match in Canada this past August and posted the only 50-10V at 900M with it. Ol' J. J. was beside himself and we (Redneck Rifle Team)won the match with a new record.

The Vais (M-700) is in an aluminum Pug stock and listening to the clank-clank-bang when J. J. is in high gear is a real treat. J. J. is in his late 70's, but works the bolt like a teenager. When told when and where to poke a shot, there ain't no lag time either.
Bill Wylde <>
Cold & Windy, IL, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 14:23:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Okay Kevin & 'Lito,

I will admit that more exists in NY, than ugh Manhattan, NYC, or whatever you call that mess. Been told a buncha times that upstate is quaint, rustic, etc. etc.


So you like Varget cool Dude! A gold * by your name on the Roster. Glad to hear the Missus made it through her surgery OK, Treat her right!

Wes, Wylde-Thang, + anybody else

Why don't you fill us in on the 6mm VAIS cartridge in a compare contrast with say a 260 Rem & 6.5-.284.

Will - Naugas, Don't even get me started. ;-)


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 14:51:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wanting some feedback on the laser range finders. Since Leica has "fixed" the problems with theirs I was wondering how they compared to the Nikon and Bushnell. I am going to buy some in the future and wanted some good real life comparisons.

jayman <>
WW, OK, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 14:52:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys I have been away and then when I came back I had slings to make so the comp has been completley ignored. Sorry for that. All slings outstanding will be shipped by Tuesday.

On the class the best thing to do is call me at 510-704-1858 during the following days and times for info.
Sat-Monday 1600-2000 hours, Weds-Friday 0900-1300 and 1600-2000 hours. If not shooting I am usually around those times.

Grasshopper I dont remember an email from you, but I may have messed up dumping the several hundred junk emails tring to sell me the latest pistol grip or get rich quick thing. If that happend I am sorry.

Jim Mitchell, the bolt stop you seek is put on by Jerry Rice. He uses a Ruger(hate the name) Bolt Stop on a remington. I have several like that. No problem. On camo for NM. I went the first time and the Desert stuff was too brown the next time the Woodland was too green and the dessert would have been just right. I think the best thing to do is call James a few weeks before and ask if it has been wet or dry. Wet equals woodland and dry is desert. Bring good water containers and sun screen either way.

Almost last but least, the bad Kevin. You need a group hug! With the forearm technique. Now go away.

Kevin M., it stinks when the kids get better than the dad. I watched my stepson get his blackbelt last week and thought I had better be nice.LOL

Bravo, you now have a cult following.

I am starting to look fairly busy for the next year. Plans to go to Pendeleton for a few weeks early in the year. Probably going up to Wes's place for a week or so in the Spring. Two weeks in July in New Mexico, plus eight classes for the department. I have to find time to just shoot.

One last but serious thing. I am looking for someone to make my slings for me. I provide the materials and you provide a walking foot sewing machine and do all the sewing. Any takers?


Mike Miller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 15:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rabon: when I needed a holster for my oddball 44 special, what I wound up doing was going to some leathercrafters (boot makers, etc) until one of them volunteered for the project. I left the revolver with him, and he hand boned a WONDERFUL pigskin lined holster for it. Cost was about $70 back then, but worth it. I wore that thing for a LONG time as my carry piece. Yeah, that'll surprise you jokers, the 9mm Glock guy carried a 44 Special! HA! But I was stupid, and sold the big frame when Smith came out with a 5 shot L frame. I've never been happy with my 696, but the 44 SPL is a great case for a great round! 200 gr JHP at 1100 fps (4").

Patron Mike: A cult following? I just called them folks looking for free beer! ;-) Honestly, I don't know what you mean, but I hope it's a good thing. I'll state right now that if they're looking towards me as a shooter, they should be looking at you instead, that's why I'M going to YOUR class!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
hoping algor will play Ned Beaties part in the remake of, Southern Comfort, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 15:28:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

I don't know if I am in the right section but I will state my problem here:

I am a 17 year veteran of the Air Force Security Forces currently on temporary duty to the NCO Academy at Gunter Annex Alabama. I am doing my research paper on Operations of the Security Forces Emergency Service Team, which is the military version of the civilian SWAT or HCTs. I am looking for information on some video tapes that depict hostage situations. There are two in particular is one where a single man had taken a lone female hostage and was in an outside area as ploice tried to negotiate with him. Well negotiations falled, and the police sniper was giving the go ahead to take a shot. The code word for the sniper to engage was "LET THE MAN DIE" over the radio. When that was given, one shot rang out and the hostage taker was hit in the head. Another video is the one of hostage seize I believe in a bank or business bldg. The snipers had the go ahead to take a shot if necessary. Well one of the hostage takers came to the door and a shot rang out but he was not hit because the thickness of the glass door was not taken into account. The hostage takers started going down the line where they had all the hostages and shoting them. The assault team came in and took care of the hostage takers. Those are just ones that I have personally seen, but I am sure there are others out there. Please if you have any information on how I can get ahold of any videos I would appreciate it. I am going to use it as my ATTENTION GETTER for my speech.


Eric R. Wilder


Eric Wilder <>
Gunter Annex, Alabama, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 15:59:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guyz...
No more e-mail on the little valve thingies... it's makin' me crazy!!

I'm here, just running WAY behind in my e-mail (it's the valve thingies!)... I'll get to yours this Monday or Tuesday.

Glass bedding...
Same thing for you'z bums, I'll start the "Glass bedding series" on Monday or Tuesday... S**T, I can't even find my Brownells catalogue under these alligators :((

>>"Naugas, Don't even get me started. ;-)"<<

Damn Man, you shoulda told me you liked hunting Naugas... the season just closed.

Up here, they are pink (it's pinko country), and hangout in the shopping malls.
No trackin' or stalkin' needed, they are easy to find because they just mill around in circles, like dopey buffalo, and you can tell the real ones by their matting call "moregore, moregore"!

And just like bufflo, they are stupid, and easy to shoot.
You only need a .410 skeets gun, or .22 shorts... they're thin skinned (VERY thin skinned), and limp wristed... but it's strictly sport/varmint shooting... you can't eat 'em, cuz they'll make you puke your guts out, every time! :))

The general opinion on low priced lasers, is that the Bushy 1000 is the hot ticket, and the new Leica is pretty good... the rest are just passing through.

I heard that Dean is giving a course on very-very long range shooting with 50-BMG... do you know anything about it? If so, e-mail me. No hurry, the gun won't be here 'til march.

Will Adams...
Don't worry, no apoligy needed... I get so much heat, I thought you wanted to by me a beer (I'll have "Beaver light"... have all you want, and don't get fat ;)

'yote Bate...
"Hunting Country"... Hell, it's the best Sniper training there is.
When you think you're a hot stalker at Storm Mountain... try to sneek up on the ultimate OB'z... coyotes, and then try crows in a open field, with a riffle... you'll look back on storm, and think that Rick, and "Sinister" were in the "White cane" squad, and stone blind in comparison...
Don't get me started on crows with a riffle, I'm already breathin' funny, and my glasses are fogged ;) Life don't get no better than that! :))


Pablito <>
Lookin' at the ice on the ponds, and knowin' it's gonna be a LONG winter :(( in the politically confused, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 16:45:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Not complaining, just trying to make a comment: on the reverse order roaster, the only day that's there is the 27th of last month. Must be a headache, eh?

Now, stop me if you've heard this one. Ok, nobody stopped me.
What's the difference between algor and a newborn puppy?
A newborn puppy opens it's eyes and stops whining within 6 weeks.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
looking for magic loads in the, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 20:54:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

I´m in the process of buying a Steyr SSG P-IV with the original silencer and have a few questions regarding that weapon:
-What handload will produce the best results, with the silencer mounted ? Subsonic offcourse !! but any data and experiences is appreciated.
-What barrel twist is used?(i can do the cleaning rod thing but precise info is appreciated)
-Is there truth to the history about the P-IV´s barrel is screwed on and the other SSG´s are pressed on ?
-what units if any, use the P-IV (LE and Military)

Rasmus Askov <>
- Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 21:25:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

HELP GUYS.... Has anybody out there had any experience with Terry
Cross, owner/gunsmith of KMW-Long Range Solutions in Louisiana? I'm
very seriously considering ordering one of his M40A1's, and I would
like to avoid any of the problems that I see posted on the Roaster
regarding some other rifle builders. I purchased a couple of his
Pod-Loc gadgets (for the Harris swivel bipod) and wouldn't be without
one after my first use! Terry seemed like a heck of guy who knows his
business when I called him to order the Pod-Locs, but I'd sure like
to hear from anybody who owns or has used his rifles.

BILL ROGERS.... it's not Hunting Country- it' Tac Trng on movers :))

7mm RM GUYS.... didn't the Secret Service use the 7RM for counter-
sniper use at one time or another?

WILL ADAMS.... maybe I'm having a brain fart (I often do that) but
is your bulk powder actually BL(C)2 or is it really BL(C)? Just asking

BRAVO.... 7x57 vs. .280- read Ken Waters' "Pet Loads", if you haven't
already. Mostly it boils down to something like- you can't cram 54gr.
of 4350 in a 57mm case, while you can do it with a 61mm case for about
200fps more velocity. Sort of like the old "you can't overfill a .270
WCF with H4831 :))

'LITO.... I'm sure that you can eat some of the better females, it's
just that you have to shut their mouth's with something so you can
stand it for long enough!

PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 22:38:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo; I think it'll be like trying to make a 30-06 out of a .308. There just not quite a way to do it and get the same results but for all practical purposes it's about the same.
Lito' Trouble with crows is they always got the altitude on you.
Smart Birds. Stalkin crows is hard to do less you can do em at about 500 yards. Good practice though. I get a kick out of guys runnin down the road and stop and roll down the window to shoot. Crows just laugh at that move. It's "Oh, hi there stupid show me your gun barrel that's it a Hart? See ya!"
Tis' true there is a lot of Sniper principles applied to hunting coyotes. The only thing really different from man hunting is that the enemy can smell you 600 yards away and can't shoot back.. otherwise I'd been not talkin to you now!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, December 02, 2000 at 23:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Coyote Country:

Way back when a high scool kid could have a mini-14 in his trunk without causing a media event, I droped a lot of yotes in their tracks with the 223. But I was night shooting with a red lensed spotlight. Back then that was legal in OK, dont know now. Just place the round between the shining eyes.

On T/C Contenders I like my daughters so much I ordered a stainless synthetic Encore. I have a patent app. in for an accesary to improve groups. Stay tuned.

Bravo send me some specs and I will have my favorite local shop whip some up. Do you think there is a market for an improved bayo ?

I saw a lot of fur coats on BET the other night maybe prices will come back up for yote pelts. They seem to skin better before they cool, do you think so Bill. Do you have any pet tecniques on getting the coyboy's coat off.
Try sardines for a combo cover scent/snack while pred-calling.
There's something so cool about being stalked by a pack of yotes at night!
iiii's <>
siloam springs, Ar, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 00:17:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Females?? What Females?? I was talkin' about that Canadian Brew, "Beaver Lite", that's imported by Jeff Babineau... not Females ;)

'yote Bate...
>>"Lito' Trouble with crows is they always got the altitude on you."<<
That's what makes shootin' 'em so much fun!


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 01:30:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Badger bases & Rem 700 -

Spent this morning lapping my Badger scope rings with a Sinclair bar. All went pretty smooth, did it twice with clean compound, nice and shiney. Right now I'm still coating with Perma Blue to get a nice black finish.

I took about 1 1/2 hours doing the actual lapping process. Ah, Bravo, you mentioned something about 24 HOURS to do yours? I'll assume that was with one Bravobrew for each stroke of the bar, right? HA!

I even made up a little barber bib per Ken Hunter (pat pend). Number one daughter thought it was really cute. :-))

Oh yea, the base. I have a Badger one piece +20 base. I discovered that the base screw that goes in the front receiver hole nearest the ejection port is long enough to protrude into the space where the bolt is. All four of the screws are the same length so it doesn't matter which is used. The result is that the screw snugs up on the top of the bolt and "locks" it in place or if the bolt is out of the receiver, it won't let it all the way back in. You could scratch up the bolt really nice if you try forcing it.

Simple solution. Use a fine metal rasp to shave a VERY SMALL amount of metal off the screw's bottom. It doesn't take very much. Do this before you use the blue loctite.

Also, three of the receiver holes open into the chamber allowing the loctite to drip into it. Stick a paper towel into the chamber to keep the goop off the workings.


Moe Mensale <>, FL, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 01:46:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

has any body have info on the new Ruger m77VLE MK II police rifle,in 308win ,what i need to know ,is the bore 1-10 or 1-12 twist,and what the trigger like,is set up 3lbs or more,how accuracy of rifle,and how would you rate the rifle to orther rifles
teri w <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 01:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mikelesam; Yeah the old red light trick... it works.. for some reason it just don't frighten them like the white light.
There's a fella down round Amarillo that skins em with a come-a-long winch by putting a rock under the hide after skining them around the eyes and rips the hide off in less than 3 minutes. He has a video called the 3 minute coyote I think that's the name. Most of the time I sell mine unskinned to save for hunting time during the season. Those where the good ole days! I hope the hides to come back. Actually I don't miss skinnin the nasty buggers. I know another hunter that skins his in the field by tieing a rock under the hide to a power pole and pulling the hide off with his jeep. Some guys are real inventive at it. I hate skinnin em. Did I say that before!
Lito' that 40X I told you about got about worn out me shooting them old crows with it. I think I learned to stalk as a kid and hit movin targets by stalkin crows with a .22 and shootin at em in the air.
Notice I said shootin AT em!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 02:39:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin, reference the Tubbs 2000 rifle go to Glenn Zediker's website for more info. G.David Tubb puts information on his products there. There is a tactical version.
D. Spitzer <SPITZER6320@AOL.COM>
VA, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 02:51:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey all,

Remember me??

Long time no see... new job's been keeping me busy. Not been shooting enough recently, either (actually, only been stalking groundhogs with a .22mag). I've managed to start lurking again about two weeks ago, but haven't had much to say.

Good to see some new riflemen here, too. Seen a lot of interesting comments, mulling over a lot of the things said ("Why didn't I think of that??" ;-) )

Anyway, hopefully I won't be a stranger anymore.

Keep 'em in the black!!


Leslie <>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 03:15:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe: I ran into the same problem with the front screws being too long when installing the Badger base on my Model 70 Sharpshooter. Badger Ordinance sent me shorter ones as I requested, but they were 6-48 .150, and seemed too short. I ordered 6-48 .200 torx screws from Brownells, and they fit just right, with full thread contact. I didn't use locktite.
Jerry Stordahl <>
Halstad, MN, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 03:30:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can any one here make any comment about Accuracy International Ltd.
and Innovation Design Engineering Associates, Inc.the company that makes the ULTRA-ACCURATE RIFLE SYSTEM STOCK?.There is some sort of lawsuit that Accuracy International Ltd has aganist Design Eng Assoc.
it's for ther design of ther rifle stock.I just bought a rifle that has a UAR stock and I like it a lot:)).Not to bash AI,it's better to buy something made in the USA than made some where else.But as I write
this I have on a pair or shoes that are made in COMMIE RED CHINA AND
AND CHARGED $20-30 MORE I WOULD STILL BUY any was always shoot
safe,straight and ffaarr!!

Scott Hannah <>
San Jose , CA, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 03:52:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


The difference between Category 1 and Category II snipers is: grads of Cat 1 courses are from the Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (at Fort Bragg) and the Marine Scout/Sniper Instructor Course (at Quantico).

Everyone else is a Cat II sniper (I went thru the USAMU course in 1982 before either SOTIC or Benning's school got aboard), i.e. Benning, AMTU, or Navy courses.

On the US Secret Service's sniper rifles, they used to use the M700 7mm Mag heavily customized (Leupold M1s, heavy barrels, Mcmillan stocks). They called it "The JAR." Nothing fancy -- "Just Another Rifle." The philosophy was it's the nut behind the butt that's the critical part of the system. Of course, Secret Service Lieutenant Carl Kovalchek set some impressive records with a .300 Win Mag.

Dave Liwanag <daveliwanag@hotmail.comTDY in Lost Wages>
Nevada, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 03:56:28 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for your heads up on questions to ask the new NG company commander. I finally got to talk to him about the B4 program within the unit. Basically, there is no program. The only one with an ASI B4 is the Supply SGT and he's too busy with the change-of-command to develop a YTP or TacEquipList. His plan is to re-enlist me 11M (Bradley Crewman)and send me off to Little Rock for training then come back and spearhead a program with my "busy" team mate. You were right that he wanted another 11M to fill his MTOE, but he REALLY wants a sniper program too. When I asked him about the items you mentioned (i.e. funding for training, ammo forcast, MTOE), his jaw dropped because he knew that I was on to him and he opened up, told the truth, and fed me the straight story of the SitRep of the company and battalion. Gotta respect him for giving me the god's honest truth and not sugar coating it. No money to train with, no ammo to train with, no SOP to train by; Just 2 willing NCO's, 120% support of the new Captain, and a M24 SWS. To me THAT is the CHALLENGE!! I love it and want it. Time to re-up and create a kick-ass training program for our unit. Thank you Bill Rogers for the help in cracking the truth out of this guy.

Some of you have told me that you are/were trainers or have set up YTP's in your units from scratch. I respectfully request your assistance, knowledge, and wisdom as I take on this wonderful challenge. I know that the road ahead of me is up hill, bumpy, pot-holed, hurdled, land mined, and frustrating, but I feel it will be worthwhile. I am Jazzed!!

Mark Staite
Mark S. <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 04:05:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm just curious, does anyone make a 50AE pistol other than Desert Eagle? Thanks for the input!

Wolfgang <>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 04:26:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Patron Dave: you still amaze me. You know about secret service stuff personally?!

Alan: Yeah, I'm just wanting something "new and improved", or actually just the improved part. That's a tough aspect. If I thought I could get the bench rest dies, match grade brass and such, I'd be really interested in the 7.5 Swiss. But as it is, I think it'll be a 30 cal.

Wild Bill: they can tell it's a Hart eh? Those are EDUCATED crows! Think you're right on the 7's too. So now I'm down to 308 and 30-06.

iiii's: you bet there's a market for one, ME! Other than me though, I doubt it. Nobody wants a bayo, and I don't particularly either, it's just that since I'm gonna carry a knife, it might as well do double duty. Learned long ago that you don't leave a knife fight not bleeding, so knives aren't for me, even with an extra couple of feet reach. The good news is that I can personally attest that it only takes several years for nerve damage to repair itself ;-) Besides, I doubt that many folks carry M-14's anymore, and there's good aftermarkets for the 16's.

Moe: that might have been a SLIGHT exageration, but it was more than 16 anyway. But the insides of them SHINE, and it's well over a 90% job, top and bottom. Took me a couple of weeks to find the time for it too. They're good hard steel, but not as well aligned as the Badgers.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
looking for the ultimate 30, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 04:41:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just got back from the Phoenix gun/Small Arms Review show, very big, very nice. Saw a very cool display on the Stoner 63, and not one, not two, but 3(!) 20mm Solothurns. WOW!

Word on the street is that US Optics has reneged on the Marine Corps contract and gone out of buisness. A vendor told me he had read this in print in SAR or SGN. Any one out there, (Mike Miller?) have some definitive info? I hope this is not true.
Steve <>
fromerly of the great state of utah,, now a happy resident of Arizona, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 04:57:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, I gotta ask -

Is this realistically possible? A 1,300 yard kill on a PD using a Rem 700 in .280 Ackley Improved? I found this on in the "Long Range & Sniper Rifles" forum, titled "THE 1313YD KILL."

The link is

This guy is either very, very lucky or very, very good.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 04:57:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am recently back on active duty in the Army. I am looking for suggestions/information concerning accurizing issued M-16A2 through additional equipment that can easily be added or removed before storing in the arms room. Specifically scope and scope mounting, possible two stage trigger substitution (I know its an armoroer only thing but its not that complicated) and any other accuracy enhancements that is now on the market. Thanks for any advice.

David Gann
David Gann <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 04:58:47 (ZULU) (your host address:


Seems to be a lot of talk lately about sniper calibers on the list. I've had several private posts asking about what caliber would be the ideal cartridge.

I use the .308 and the 6.5 X .284.

The problem is that all those cartridges have the potential to be good sniper cartridges. That is, they had the intrinsic accuracy, using good components, and load techniques to compete with each other.

What must be factored in a the logistics factor. Today, that still leaves us with two cartridges for consideration. The .308 and the .300 Winch Magnum.

Of the two the .308 gets my nod. No other cartridge has been so thoroughly developed, tested, and is available everywhere. From the military standpoint it and the .300 mag are the ONLY cartridges supported in the supply system. Hang it up for anything else.

Police have more latitude. Probably just buy whatever match ammo they get best price on and shoots OK. For them, though, the answer is still .308.

Specialty rounds? The .308 has them. Recoil, cost, are not issues.

Guess I'm still a .308 fan. It accomplishes 99% of the missions with no fuss, muss, or bother. Good solid performance when needed and no surprises from properly maintained rifles.

All for now...going to set out gear for tomorrow's foray...

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 05:42:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just finished searching all the Duty Roster archives, and didn't see an answer to this question...

Has anyone been daring enough to drop a handgun into an ultrasonic cleaning machine? And if so, did it come out clean, with the finish and silk screening intact? What did you use for a solution?

Granted, cleaning the copper and/or lead deposited inside the barrel requires some mechanical effort to remove, but if I could break down an automatic, drop the slide, frame, and magazine(s) into an ultrasonic cleaner, leaving only the barrel to be cleaned by hand, I'd have much more time left to go shooting. As it is, an hours session at the range requires two or three hours of cleaning afterwards.

P.S. I had the opportunity to handle both a Rem 700 VS and a PSS. The palm swell of the PSS fit my hand like a glove. I gots to gets me one a dem.

P.S.S. On the subject of cleaning solutions, my favorite thus far is Sweets. Nothing else cleans the ungodly thick Unique soot off my Super Redhawk as well.
MikeL <>
Beer Capitol, WI, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 08:13:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

I've had a rifle built by George Gardner for about a month now and it is almost broken in. I just wanted to post a review of the rifle.

Action: Rem700 w/ speedbolt Barrel: 22" Cooper Precision 5R Stock: McMillan A4
Scope Mount: Badger Max50 Rings and 20MOA single piece base
Scope: Leupold Ultra 10X
Weight w/scope and Harris bipod: 16.5lbs.
The action is trued and bedded to the stock. The barrel, action, bolt, and stock are finished in a OD resin and it looks great. George says the finish is "tough as nails" and will not easily chip. The REM trigger, though stated from George to be at 2.5 lbs, was a little over 3 lbs with no creep; probably the result of some jilting during transit from the shop. I removed the action from the stock and tuned the trigger down to 2 lbs.

I used Fed. 168gr GM to break the rifle in (120 rounds)

Yesterday I headed to the range to shoot groups.

A friend of mine handloads and loaded the following for me to shoot: 40gr 2460, Sierra 168gr BTHP, Fed M brass,fed primer.

Though I did some informal group (3 shot) shooting during the break-in, the shots were done from an Eagle rest (The best group at 100Yds was .24" I had one 5 shot group that had 4 in .21"! but a flyer brought it out to .32" ). For the handloads, I wanted to use the bipod. I shot three 3 shot groups at 100 yards and they measured .58", .5", and .34". Incidently, these groups were shot from a bench.

Well, I'm very happy with this rifle. It is truly a sub MOA gun. From the bench it shot like a benchrest gun. I'm not used to shooting from the bench with a bipod and it is a lot harder to stablize the rifle than I thought. I also used a rear sandbag. Next time, I will shoot some groups prone without the support. I will also be taking the rifle out to 700 yards in the coming month.

I think Mike Miller also has a rifle built by George Gardner. For those of you looking to have a tactical rifle built from scratch, I highly recommend that you check out George Gardner and GA Precision.

DrRMJ <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 08:16:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone have a PSS from IBA sounds like a pretty good package deal.
Geoff Ovens <>
Raleigh, NC, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 08:59:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
BILL ROGERS..... a golf ball, a rope, a tree, and your trailer hitch
really does the trick. Works great on deer too! Learned it from a
Game Warden in Utah about 25 years ago.
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 11:15:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Yes, it's very possible. My best shot on a Prairie Dog (witnessed, and measured) was 853 yds, with a .222 Mag, 40-XBBR, and a 2" Unertl.

His shot at 1313 yds comes with the very honest statement "...THE BULLET WAS A 168GR MATCH KING BY SERRIA, THE SHOT ONLY TOOK 45 RDS TO

For my 853 yrd shot, it ONLY took 17 rounds ;)
It sounds hard, but it's really not.

When I was at Storm Mountain a few years ago, the guys were shooting at clay pidgeons on the slag pile (no wind)... about 800 yds, and were making a real mess of them :))

How-some-ever... the real one to get your attention was this past year... 3200 yards (2 miles) on a Prairie Dog with a .308... on the third shot!! Witnessed, and verified! Was there luck involved... sure, but without one hell of lotta skill, you don't get close enough for the luck to work!!

I have an ultrasonic cleaner, and clean pistols and revolvers in it maybe once a year... and it hasn't hurt the guns at all.
The problem is that it cleans them too well, and there are lots of places that wind up with no lubrication, so after the ultrasonic cleaning, I have to oil the hell out of them, wait 24 hours, and wipe it off... I don't save time, it just gets the crud out, after a year of shooting.

I recently left a pair of badger rings in the cleaner, after cutting a heavy taper into them, and the parkerizing was messed up... it came off on about half of the surfaces.

Many "Commerative" guns, have "gold" inlays that are really bronze powder/binder, that is rubbed into the stamped designs... ultrasounic cleaners will remove this stuff in a few seconds.

"...and silk screening intact"
Silk Screanng??? What the hell is that doing on your gun?


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 12:02:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

I recently received a rifle that is suppose to be from WWI and WWII. I would like to find out what it is and worth. It is in great condition. The markings on the rifle are: CAI ST.ALB.VT M27 7.62X54R Finland
Earl <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 12:02:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pablito> The problem is that it cleans them too well, and there are lots of places that wind up with no lubrication

I can see that.

Pablito> Silk Screanng??? What the hell is that doing on your gun?

My Walther P99 has an Interarms logo printed - not stamped - on the slide. And while the frame and slide have serial number tags glued to them, the matching serial number is printed - not stamped - onto the barrel.

How was this lettering printed onto the slide and barrel? I'd assumed (yea yea) they were silk screened on. Could be wrong, though.

ALAN> a golf ball, a rope, a tree, and your trailer hitch
really does the trick.

Ok, I'll bite. How's it done?
MikeL <>
Not in Al Gore's socialist utopia, WI, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 13:43:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


I saw a pic of the Barrett adjustable taper rings on "Biggerhammer"... went to the Barrett site, but there's no technical data on them.
I have a bunch of scopes that have 145 moa of elevation, and want my 100 yd zero to be at the bottom of the scale!
Even with the 50 moa tapered base on the 50 BMG, I will still need another 20 or 30 forward taper, but for a MK4-M3 on the same gun, I will need about 40 moa of "BACKWARDS" taper... these rings are lookin real good.
How do they work... how much adjustment do they have (both for forward, and backward taper)... do they use the same sized nuts as the Badger/MK4 rings... can you take them off and on, without loosing zero?

Inquiring Pablitos want to know!!


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 14:46:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, I talked with Dean just before you posted the question. He is planning on a class in the spring. Sounds good. He is working on data tables for the AMAX bullets, in the 50BMG. I am not able to help him with this class but it should be good. When I get more info I will let you know. He does know 50's. On the Barrett rings they are very good. You have all the elevation, either way you could ever need to put on or take off. Yes they use thwe 1/2" nut like all the others.

I have several George Gardner Rifles and can not say enough good about them. My current favorite is with a M40A1 Stock, Badger Floor Plate, Badger Rings, Badger Bases and a flutted #6 taper Acc Int BBl, cut at 22". I get 2625 with Fed 175's out of that little 22" bbl and they all go in the same hole. His prices are good and he has quick turn around. The guy knows just about everyone and does not seem to have to wait forever to get stuff.

Back to work

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 15:11:33 (ZULU) (your host address:


Check your email box, i sent you a photo of the new Barrett rings when they were on a Barrett M98 at the 1999 Shot Show. Unless they have changed them, there is no "nut" that mounts them to the rail. They use a hex head screw instead.

I played with the rings a bit at the show and they have some nice movement. They slide up and down within each other, both rings, so you could "reverse slant" your rings if needed. Only problem seems to be that they better be tight, tight, tight because there is only tension friction to hold them in place. Am working on a better set of adjustable rings that DO NOT have the possibility of dropping if they loosen up a bit.

They'll be around next summer. Going to the Shotshow in New Orleans in 2001, keep you all posted on the new stuff. Take care and have a Merry Christmas all.
Triggerfifty <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 15:19:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike L: Well, here we go. Ultrasonication can do some great things. Understand though, that it's mainly designed to shatter caked on hard stuff. My choice? Well, lets say that one COULD ultrasonicate in methanol (grips removed), and then use the dunk-kit. Patch the barrel and it's done! Beware though, if you put stuff in a beaker, or it rattles on the bottom, you'll wear finish off. Suspended parts work the bestest. Coat hangers that have been "recycled" don't look nice, but work great! I have NO idea about silk screenings. Don't have any.

Now for some "stirring of the pot". I've got a book (Nossler#3) that gives a load for thier 162gr 7mm, in a 7-08 that flies from a 24" bbl at 2780 fps. This sounds a little high for me to believe right off. Basically, I'm thinking that the 190 30 cal is the same as the 168 7mm, right? So one of you 7-08 gurus give me a hand here with reality!

Anyone have any experience with the McMillan Baker Special? I'm thinking it looks nice, but I'd like a shooter to give me an honest review. And Mike, if I remember, your A-4 had a non-saddle type cheek piece didn't it, like the A-3? God Bless America, with all our choices!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
I need some major edjumacation!, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 17:43:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Stan, call Lorraine and give her your phone number. I can't get to the number right now and she will call me with it when you give it to her.

On the A4, I take that piece of.... saddle off and us an Eagle Buttstock Bag. Works out great. On the Baker Stock, I hate it.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 18:37:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi All,

Have been lurking for years and occasionally ask a question.

Regarding those that Bait others for responses, they are best ignored, they crawl back under their rocks eventually.

I had a look at the Hot Tips and cold shots and couldn't find what I wanted.

Have a question with regard to lapping rings, am about to mount a Tasco Super Sniper on a Savage 10FP, using Weaver Bases and Leupold QR mounts, I would like to know whether or not to lap the rings, why to do it (is it to increase the bearing surface of the rings on the scope, to guarantee the alignment of the scope in the rings or both??)
and how to do it. I would appreciate somebody sending me, or posting a notice in the Duty Roster on how to do this, I will be making my own
lapping bar, so should it be exactly 30mm, oversized or undersized?, I was planning on using Valve Grinding Paste, is this a good or bad idea?

Any and all input would be appreciated.


Dave <>
Canberra, ACT, Australia - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 22:25:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone shoot Winchester .308 168 gr. match ammunition? I ask because I just shot 5 3 shot groups with my Rem 40x (new Krieger 26 in barrel, 1 in 11 twist, with less than 200 rounds through it) and in each group I have 2 shots which measure under a 1/4 inch with 1 flyer that opens it up to 1/2 inch. A friend of my with a Rem. PSS in .308 also says that he gets flyers with this ammo. Does anyone have the same results with this ammo?
Robert <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 22:29:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone know about this rifle 1916 spanish mauser converted to .308 at there arsenal,,,i am wondering if it was done by rebarrel or rechamber etc,,,

Thank you for your time

Wade in the wood's
Wade <>
wa, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 22:46:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

One of our more learned Rosterferians gave me an idea about a 6.5x284 after I axed him a question by email. He was unsure about one thing though since he didn't have his literature with him. Does anyone know if a 300 mag bolt head will accept a .284 case? If not, can I have a bolt head installed that will work? If so, I can take the 300 mag barrel off, buy a 6.5x284 barrel and pop that baby doll in the receiver.

Final Round:
Deer 3, Tree 1, Bolt 0
Got greedy after seeing a monster print on the way to my stand Friday morning. Well you know the rest of the story, waited on him and passed up his mistresses and little brothers. No freezer meat this year.

BTW, military cold weather gear is just that, COLD. I decided to try the mil stuff Friday morning. 22 degrees, wind around 20, damn cold. The mil stuff sucks, glad I brought my other civi cold weather gear. If I were in the military and they told me I had to wear that crap, I'd resign, better than freezing your ass off.
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 23:06:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dave: One Patron says do it, another Patron says don't waste your time. I see the point of both, but since my choice of ring makers isn't as high of quality as the Badgers, and since I have more time than dough, and lastly like to get personal with my weapon, I lapped 'em. Why not?

Patron Mike: thank you Sir! It's one thing to look at purdy pictures of these stocks, another to handle 'em! That's why I asked you. No Baker Special for me. So the only other one that caught my eye was the A3, would you recommend that one? I would say A4, but I'm with you on the saddle type cheek piece. I know why I think it's "less than ideal" on mine, what's your take? Of course, since I'm cleaning from the muzzle, I think it would be easier on me than you. I just don't like the feel of it really. Just "not right". Feels like a tube and not a stock comb. Besides, that black foam detracts from my purdy desert camo ;-)

Bolt: you know that's a layer system don't you? If you're sedentary (stand hunting, etc) or it's REAL cold, I like those polypropylene undies that are included in the system. Else wise, I leave 'em off, as I get too hot. Seriously. If they weren't loud, I'd be happy with them!

Hey guys, I referred Wade to the experts here, he's looking for a good low buck shooter, to get all he can outta his bucks. I'm not good with bolt guns, but I know YOUSE GUYS are. Any good rebarrelled Mausers floating around out there with 308 chambers?
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Associated press and CBS, now admit to roughly 5000 felon voters in Florida, not to mention the dead and aliens!, USA - Sunday, December 03, 2000 at 23:52:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo San, had on an extreme cold weather outfit(duck tail type) with the liners and mil polypros and my regular camo and the wind blew right through them. Went back to base and got my Columbia thinsulate stuff and stayed toasty.

Remember GLOMITTS, these are these bestest glovemitts I have ever used from the Cabelas catalog. You can take a hand warmer and put it in the mitt part and your finners will sweat!
Bolt <>
NC, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 00:07:53 (ZULU) (your host address:


The 6.5x284 takes the standard 308 - 30-06 rim size.
The case body is fatter than the rim... it's called a "rebated rim".


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 00:54:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE: 168gr HPBT Winchester Match Ammo

Robert, I just tried out a box of this stuff this week because I was curious. It worked pretty well out of my rifle. I shot 4 groups of 5 at 100 yds on an indoor range and got average group size of 0.666" with my PSS. Best group of 5 measured 0.438" center-to-center. Worst was 0.750" c-t-c. Best 3-in-a-row was 0.250" c-t-c. So, my rifle likes it well enough, it's just the the "nut behind the butt" needs more practice to keep 'em tighter.

Roger C. <>
Cold and wet in Austin, TX, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 01:45:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike L.

Silk Screening???????????

I would venture to guess that it is Laser Etching.

brack in the cold northeadt <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 01:57:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


Took the 6.5 X .284 to the range today and tested for accuracy, velocity, and pressure signs.

Rifle: Chandler Super Sniper/26" Hart Barrel
Bullet: 142 Gr. Sierra MK(OAL: 2.98")
54.6 Gr. H4831SC(Lot#: t1092)
Brass: Norma (New/Match prep'd)
Primer: Fed 210 M
Temp: 45 degrees/Humidity 93%

Results for 10 shots: Average Velocity: 2,961 FPS/Extreme Spread 33 FPS.
Pressure signs: None. Cases almost fell out of the chamber. No cratering or marks on the case head. Primers slightly flat.
Accuracy: Two five round groups of .250 each, center to center.

All in all, exactly what I have come to expect from this combination. Long range testing will commence in two weeks. Intitial testing at 600 yards and move to 1000 provided our shooting area isn't flooded by then.

Dusted off my Springfield M1A Match Rifle and took 80 rounds of 168 Sierra's loaded in LC 90 Nato cases. Velocity was 2,582 FPS.

This was like meeting an old friend. Something about that wood and steel that the "Mousegun" will NEVER emulate. Shot a ten round group from the bench. All went in a nice 1.5" group centered above the X-ring. Noted that I had three clicks of elevation on...corrected and next ten went IN the X-ring.

The gun will shoot better. The last match shooting I had done was '95 and my prone slow fire usually went in one ragged hole. I definetely have something to work toward.

Decided to put up a 100 yard reduced target and see what my off hand looked like...
Damned if my "wobble zone" didn't look like a landing pattern for a 747! Still, all said and done, I shot a 183/200. Needless to say, I was pleased!

Not bad for a almost 50, over the hill Marine who's eyesight ain't what it used to be. Luckily, it's still 20/15 "out there". Front sight is SHARP AND CLEAR!

Looks like those basicss I learned years ago haven't been forgotten. Now I just need to practice and sharpen things up a bit.

Great Day! Most relaxing.

Down side: Cleaning the rifles. Bolt gun was easy, but I'd forgotten how many nooks and crannies the M1A has...! Finally got both clean to my satisfaction.

Now, time to get my 175's loaded and start competing again.
Haven't had this much fun in a coon's age!

DON'T tell Bravo, but I actually like shooting my gas gun. Any other "closet" gas gunners out there...?

Lock and load!

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 02:07:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

SFC Steve Suttles will be teaching a Basic Long Range Precision (Sniper) Rifle course March 8-11, 2001 at the BadLands Tactical Training Facility, Grandfield, Oklahoma. For details of course curriculum, visit Cost of the course is $250. This course is open to Law Enforcement, Military, and Civilians. For more information contact me. Thanks
Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 03:00:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
brack> Silk Screening??????????? I would venture to guess that it is Laser Etching.

Hold on, I'll look...

Hmm. I can admit that it's not how my memory pictured it. The lettering is flush with the finish (meaning it's not silk screened - I was wrong), and the lettering is copper colored - the exact same color that the brass left on the ejection port on it's way out (I haven't cleaned the slide yet). Can't really tell how that lettering was put on.
MikeL <>
Beer Capitol, WI, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 03:05:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt - If you want to convert a .300 Win Mag to 6.5, look at the 6.5 Remington Mag. It's a .308 length magnum sized round. It's powder capacity seems to be just a tad more than the 30-06 case, and the short case would let you seat the bullets out where the belong in a long action. The other option is the .264 Win mag, but it's so overbore as to be relatively inefficient, i.e.; it takes way more powder than it should to get the velocity.

For what it's worth.

Pat T
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 04:55:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sir Wes: Yeah, don't tell me, see how you are! I think the vast majority of these snipers have a warm part of thier heart for the M-14's, even if they don't admit it. Probably never made out with a fat girl or riden a motorscooter either ;-) Seriously, I used to be really big into cleaning the weapon, now it's a zip-zap-zoop afair, not much different from cleaning a bolt gun. I punch the bore / chamber, wipe the gas piston and bolt face with a hoppes-ized patch, and THAT'S IT! Since the things will run 100% with rice paddy and buffalo crap in 'em, then a little extra carbon in the grease won't make any difference before I change the lube every case of ammo or so. Seriously. Those results of your 6.5 experiment sound really great! If I were in the market for something with the barrel life of a 300 WM, then I'd be jumping all over you for 6.5 dope. Oh, my palmtop died again, and I lost your number. If you got the time, drop me an e-mail.

Bolt: ah so! I thought you were talking about the goretex ECWCS stuff. I've got one of those parkas like you're talking about in the closet, hardly ever wear it. They're fine as long as there's no wind LOL. If I need an "extra length field jacket", that's about all it's good for.

Jim: checked the mail this evening, the package got here just fine! You've got my EXTREME APPRECIATION!!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
locked, loaded, and many full bandos thanks to Jim!, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 05:15:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Reference Tikka 595 Sporter

I have been working with two Tikka 595 Sporters .308 and 22-250 since early summer. Both rifles are shooters. .308 throws a 155 Palma Match Sierra into .350 more often than not never breaks .500 The
22-250 fires a 55 Grain Hornady VMAX into .500.
Had a hot and humid summer, neither gun showed any sign of zero shift between range sessions while the heat lasted. Took the .308 out last week. Temperatures in the 20's. I've gained an inch and a half rise at 100 yards. Marks to 400 showed the same shift.
I was hoping I'd get lucky with the factory stock not warping but I am more Murphy prone than most. I started browsing for a good target oriented synthetic for this model but so far I haven't found any manufacturer offering a piece of plastic for this rifle.
Any help finding a production piece greatly appreciated.
First time I've emailed the site. Been logging on for a year and a half. My wife thought I was the only rifle nut in the States. I let her read a couple postings from Gooch. Now she knows I'm not alone
(Hee Hee)

J C Sword
J C Sword <>
Lexington, Kentucky, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 06:33:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Reference Tikka 595 Sporter

I have been working with two Tikka 595 Sporters .308 and 22-250 since early summer. Both rifles are shooters. .308 throws a 155 Palma Match Sierra into .350 more often than not never breaks .500 The
22-250 fires a 55 Grain Hornady VMAX into .500.
Had a hot and humid summer, neither gun showed any sign of zero shift between range sessions while the heat lasted. Took the .308 out last week. Temperatures in the 20's. I've gained an inch and a half rise at 100 yards. Marks to 400 showed the same shift.
I was hoping I'd get lucky with the factory stock not warping but I am more Murphy prone than most. I started browsing for a good target oriented synthetic for this model but so far I haven't found any manufacturer offering a piece of plastic for this rifle.
Any help finding a production piece greatly appreciated.
First time I've emailed the site. Been logging on for a year and a half. My wife thought I was the only rifle nut in the States. I let her read a couple postings from Gooch. Now she knows I'm not alone
(Hee Hee)

J C Sword
J C Sword <>
Lexington, Kentucky, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 06:50:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

SFC Pete Carpentier:

Of course I remember you and Ed. I hope you're both doing well. I only drop in here once or twice a week and sometimes miss things. I saw your post to Mark and I, and made a mental note to e-mail later but did not copy your address. Logged on tonight and your post was already gone. When you have a chance, e-mail. What ya got goin' on down that way? Are you going to make Wilson this year? I hope to. Have some fresh meat for a partner that's just itchin' to go. He's a tall, lanky kid that could probably pick me up and carry me on the road march. Hooah. Good to hear from you.
SSG Maries/ 2-162 INF/ ORARNG <>
OR, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 07:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


Saw you recommended the 6.5 Magnum to Bolt. Good cartridge, but ballistically almost identical in performance to the 6.5 x .284. Do you really want him to screw around with TRYING to find 6.5 Mag brass and then uniform it. Go with the 6.5 X .284. No muss or fuss. Norma brass is exceptional in all regards.

As to the .264 Winch Mag...I have a soft spot for the round, but the same applies. Not to mention being badly overbored...

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 08:27:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Tubbs 2000T

I put a picture of the Tubbs 2000T up as a screen saver at home. Andy saw it and squinting at me said,"What's that?"
As I was telling him, he stood there shaking his head moving his arms as though paddling a canoe. When I was finished he shook his head and said,"I don't think so."
I shouldn't have ever let him read all that stuff by the Chandlers. Fifteen years old and he figures if it isn't a M40A1 or a M24 then it's just not right.
I guess it could be worse.
Now I've got to talk to him about girls and explain that even if they don't look like the ones in the "Victoria Secrets" catalog they might be ok. I don't think he'll buy that one either.
What's a dad to do?
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 11:33:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes - The comment was in connection with converting a .300 Win Mag to 6.5-284. My only point was that the 6.5 Rem Mag was a better choice with the magnum bolt face. The 6.5-284 is what I chose to build, mostly because I had a spare .308 to work with. That said, my Hornady book shows the 6.5 Rem magnum using approximately 10 more grains of H4831 to get another 200 fpr with the 140 Amax bullet. I think that it might be a better choice for someone wanting to build a 6.5 on a magnum action than the .264 Win mag. The .264 Win mag needs to have the bullet seated rather deeply to feed properly, whereas with the 6.5 Rem you could seat the bullet out and still use a magnum length action.

Pat T
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 13:59:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello all, I am just getting started in Long range shooting as a hobby
and for hunting. I own a Rem Sendero in .300 win mag topped with a Leupold 4.5X14 long rage tactical scope with mil dot reticle. I need to know where to purchase match grade ammo (I dont reload yet)(yet!)
and how do I determine a drop chart for the match grade load.
is there any one book that will help Bieng in the PA Army NG I have procured a sniper FM. I found it less than helpfull. The School
must teach that aspect of ballistics. Any Help would be much appriciated.

Matt Foley
Matt Foley <>
PA, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 14:29:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Matt; You can determine the speed with a chronograph and use one of the ballistic programs available on line. Or better yet and neccessary...for serious work.. get you a Range Card made by shooting the distances at your altitude and noting the settings. Be sure you start with an exact 100 yard/meter zero so you can return to it later. It is important you do it all on the same day. Simply note the clicks for a particular Zero. Use a slip on pad for that .300 Win Mag to deaden the recoil a little because you'll be shooting at least 50 rounds in less than a few hours at best. Or take a bottle of Tylenol Plus. Then you can note the changes in Zero over time and temp changes.
The online programs will give you approximations for those changes.
Keep notes over a long period of time to really know what you're doing. There is no other known way. Any thing else is shoot and holler!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 15:11:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken Hunter,
I have a computer programming problem, could you E mail me please.

Torsten <>
germany - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 15:45:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Heads Up!

I just got off the phone with Chris at Premier Reticle.

The little 25X50mm Loopy spotting scope has been discontinued and there are only a few left.

Get'em while they last.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 16:23:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pat T,
I agree with you that the 6.5 Rem Mag is a nice round but to convert to it would be foolish since the brass is so hard to find. I have seen adds for guys trying to find some for guns they have. Bolt would be better off trading his mag action for a stock BDL long action, he should be able to do well on a trade then build the 6.5x284 which in my opinion is a much better round for what he wants.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 17:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Coyote Country

I've read the coyote post with intrest, since my winter time sport is coyote calling. The comments on caliber selection, sniper training, and realistic movers. So this morning I did some testing. I went to the field with my calls and my .308 tactical rifle shooting 165gr Ballistic Tips. Twenty minutes into my first stand a female coyote walks out at 150 yards. I did cheat on the mover part though, I barked at her, she stopped and BANG, instant fur covered jello bag. I picked her up and she rattled, actually saw the breath get blown out of her lungs.
Something that might be of intrest to the readers of this site. I use a monopod for the sitting position. You can move it in a 120 degree arc and it is very solid. Weighs less than a pound. Will be making an over the back sling for it. It's a useful peice of kit to me at lest.

All for now.

Bill Byford <>
IL, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 18:00:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kenvin (Andy's dad ;)

Thanks for the heads up... I was gonna' get one in the spring... just got off the phone, there's a 25x50 Lupita w/ OD-Alice case on the way, and Premier has 24 left!

Why do these things happen between paychecks :(

Thanks again!

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 18:06:05 (ZULU) (your host address:


Winter sniping course - how many of you hogs would be interested in attending a winter sniping course - say in Jan/Feb timeframe at Storm Mountain. I think the original idea was a 3 day course - probably wrapped around a weekend.

It would be a real b*tch - but good for ya. You'd find out what you and your weapon system could do - 'cause man it gets cold as heck up there.

I was talking to Rod a few days ago. He says 5 as a minimum would do for a class.

Email me privately if you're interested and we'll compile feedback from there.

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 18:26:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, yep. Working with the Secret Service guys is a real joy and education. They provide some of the most OUTSTANDING firearms training available on the planet. When your mission is protecting "The Man," you really are playing in the Big Boy / Long Pants League. Maximum effective range of an excuse there is exactly zero meters.

I don't know squat about lapping rings, but I am disappointed when I look inside the Mark IVs and they look like the guy took off early for lunch.

Bolt, I'm assuming you're learning the joys and shortcomings of the old M1950 (cotton) fishtail parka and field pants system and not the ECWCS. Note the year that stuff was standardized. We used to have two sets of gear for "Cold-wet" and "Cold-dry" conditions. The next generation fielding after ECWCS is the SPEAR system (I don't recall what it stands for but it has nice polypro fleece, and the fleece jacket rivals what you'd get from Marmot. Elbow and shoulder reinforcements, pit zips, good pockets).

Bolt, I gots to know. Have found a 1970 M70 with 20 rounds down the tube. A .308 across-the-course gun (24" tube, clip-slotted, Redfield International sights, both inner and outer original shipping boxes. Bedded by USAMU, LNIB) I want to use it for Palma and 1,000s. Retired Distinguished and President's Hundred wants $900. I'm pretty sure it's a great/good deal, but don't know much about 70s.

Mike, I believe the logo on your Walther was put there using a process called sublimation. The logo is transferred directly onto the steel from a transfer and is bonded to the steel molecules.
Dave Liwanag <>
On the road, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 18:42:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don't believe that "Sinister" rascal for a minute!... doesn't know about M70's, and what that one would be worth... HA! (as Pat would say).

That M70 is a dog-a-roo, get it, and send it up, and I'll send you a new Remington PSS, and $50, just to save you from getting into a bad gun. ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 18:59:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry! The M70 question was for Pablito.

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 18:59:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, I know, i know. I just couldn't believe that's all the guy wanted for it. I have a bad habit of looking a gift horse up its backside. And to think, all I was looking at it for was its rear sight!

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 19:03:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


You mean you don't want a "new" 700 PSS for that M70 POS!! ;))

Good, now the "Harlot" has a friend :))... enjoy!

It's good for you. It has vitamins and minerals, and is good for your blood pressure... write it off from your medical plan :))


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 19:14:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pat -

I have to agree with the idea of trading for a standard action. Or beter yet, locating a good used one at a reasonable price. It seems every time I trade one off, I wind up wishing I had it back. Still, every time I look at the 6.5 Rem mag, I wonder how well you could make it shoot. Short powder column, and good capacity. Speaking of which, what kind of loading density are you people with the 6.5-284 getting. I finally picked up my dies last week and shot mine over the weekend. Re22 looked like a good place to start, and it shot well, but even the max load listed in my Hornady handbook looked to be only 85-90% capacity. Do I need to go slower, or is this a good thing. Max loads of H4831 in my sons 260 are slightly compressed.

Pat T
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 21:01:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


It sounds like the Florida judge is shutting down Mr. Gore's plans for any and all replacement/adjusted counts, recounts and claims to illegalities and improper use of discretion.

(Heavy sigh)

Chris <>
Westford, mass, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 21:56:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill Rogers: Tell me again how naive I am.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 22:05:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC; you wiley rascal I suppose you think you hear the Fat Lady... HA! Such arrogance! I beg you to hold your breath till the WGore conceeds!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 23:21:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sinister Dave:
If you don't want that POS, tell the guy I'll take it for $100 bucks if he pays for the shipping!

More confused than ever!
Let's see, I need a long action, non-magnum, thingie to make my 6.5-284. I give up, think I will just sell some stuff and let Chandler build me one too if I could ever find his site or land line number. I've got a 7mag Sendero to go along with the 300 and probably don't need both. I HATE to sell stuff to buy other stuff but I am getting in heat for a round that don't bust my injury ridden shoulder, deafen my already hard of hearing ears and will reach out and touch at the 300 mag ranges.

BTW, picked out 3 fine locations for my range up on our hunting lease. One reminds me of the hill at SMTC. We figure I have a down slope shot of around 400 yards, an uphill of almost 600 and a flat out across the hill at around 800. Another location has a cross hill shot of around 1200 yards and the final location (for someone that will let me borrow a 50) is around 2200 yards mountain to mountain. Now that the Christmas trees are gone my stalking course will take on a whole new meaning. A 300 yard 60 degree shot down throw sage grass, bushes, little pines into a creek and up into woods. Hehah!!!!!!! All I need now is some survey work to confirm the yardages. Going to try to talk the guys in the club to break our rules and let some of the Rosterferians that live around here go with me. Right now our charter doesn't allow it. Pistol and tactical range is next.

Can set up movers, have a couple of kids that said they would wear a target on their heads and run down the hill. They said that as bad as I shoot they didn't have anything to worry about LOL.

Bolt <>
NC, USA - Monday, December 04, 2000 at 23:24:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Howdy sir...that M70 sounds like a good shooter, but I'd think about a longer pipe/different twist (1:13) for 1000yd/palma work-if you want to shoot 155's, that is. There is no rule that states you must shoot the 155, however. If you are not super serious about making the Palma team then you might as well shoot 175'185'190's and laugh as I crank on 7MOA changes from shot to shot. Hope all is well. We are departing for Mini-Interservice tomorrow-Let's hope the Marines will be kind to us.
In the middle,
Emil Praslick <>
Columbus, GA, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 00:19:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
Dunkin' Guns:
If you want to loosen/remove carbon oil and other baked on crud get a bucket fill it with diesel fuel or kerosene and drop in your parts for 24 hours.them letters may be acid etched which is like a screen printing stencil.Diesel wont hurt them the aggitation is whats gonna grind 'em off.M14 nooks and crannies same way,stick the action in the bucket prop up the barrel and drink beer until clean.Spray off with brake cleaner and lube.KROIL looks acts and smells like kerosene and automatic transmission fluid to me.And its good shit.Kerosene is basicly just diesel fuel just a little cleaner.DONT SMOKE!!!you can put a cigarette out in diesel as its not very volatile but take no chances.If you put diesel in a 4oz bottle and called it "Failsafe Tactical Gun Emulsifier" or some other special shit people would buy it for $6.95.The gas station will sell it to you for $1.59 a gallon.

Savage/Tasco lappin' guy:
Savage receivers are notorious for the front/rear mount surfaces being out of square to each other.Probably the best reason there is for lapping.This being said I shoot a Savage/Tasco/Choate(I call it my red-headed step child)because thats what my family says I can afford.....and I don't think you would want to be down range:O
BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 00:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can any of the Brits that frequent this site comment on the quality of the British Issue Bivy Bags. I saw one on a surplus web sight and need any information on the quality and such. The one I saw does not appear to be gore-tex but the web site it is on doesnt specify. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks John
John <>
selma, nc, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 01:14:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can any of the Brits that frequent this site comment on the quality of the British Issue Bivy Bags. I saw one on a surplus web sight and need any information on the quality and such. The one I saw does not appear to be gore-tex but the web site it is on doesnt specify. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks John
John <>
selma, nc, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 01:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
Patron Dave, as I've said before, the number of "Been there - Done that" T-shirts you have is truly amazing to me! I'd bet there's some top notch shooters in there too. Too bad they've got to live with what they're given to protect. Although news has it that clitton has had more quit under his regime than anyone since inception, not to mention the ones that are suing algor. On the Winchester, *PLEASE* let me know how it shoots. After all, there's no question it's going to follow you home!

Kevin (Andy's dad): that's terrible news. I've been eyeballing one of those for quite some time, but haven't had the cash all at once (I make payments for stuff), you know if they're going to still put the reticle in on a purchased one upon request? I'd like the skinny before I hawk something I care about :-( As for Victoria's secret and what women in real life look like, it's my experience that they look like that mostly until you get married. Then it all goes bye-bye. Note: ENJOY YOUTH!

And now for something completely different! I got to looking over the 7mm 168 Sierra BC's, and they don't look as good as the 30 cal 175's. So, if I can drive them both to 2800 fps in a 26" barrel (7-08 and 308), I'll keep the 308! Better bore capacity, longer theoretic life, SLIGHTLY better BC for the same velocity. Not to mention that Patrons Mike and 'Lito said the same thing ;-) So now the question that I just can't put down: why are the 7X57 Mauser loads so slow in the books, when they're pushed to 50,000 CUP in contrast to the 52,000 CUP for the 308? I would think that the Mauser load would overtake the 308. TIA for the bolt gun stuff, I'll learn this one way or another. It's silly of me, but I have to be able to justify that 30-06 to myself one way or another LOL.

And I've decided to give the Varget a go in the 5.56 also. Why not, right? Will report on the progress with it when I can walk through my range and not have a couple of extra pounds of mud on each boot.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
my range is still WAY muddy, note to self: melted snow makes lots of mud, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 01:16:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill R: Concede? We don't want Gore to concede. We want him to cry and whine and wet himself in public. He's cooperating.

What's the final verdict on that Savage Scout?

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 03:04:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC; you have a point about the the WhineGore Doll, he might just bury himself forever if he keeps on. Does look like it might wind down. Look for the trump Judge to possibly cause some more trouble yet though.
The Scout just keeps on shooting, I've still be using it and it still keeps holding in there. I find the 2X scope I've got on it now the best compromise but it's still a little short in the magnification department. The bedding is doing fine but I wish they would center the damn things in the stock before they leave the factory. It is a bit closer to one side and that doesn't seem to affect anything. (something I could fix but shouldn't have too). It goes right back to zero when I take it out of the stock. Otherwise it works pretty good. One would need a new trigger if he couldn't stand about 4 lbs though.
Darn thing works better than it should! I wish I had a better stock but I'd be afraid to replace it with anything that wasn't pillar bedded like it is. Guess I'll just shoot it like that. It's fast on running game and shoots fairly tight out to 300 but the magnifcation should be bothing me after that. I shot it off hand at 100 yard pistol sillouette Rams at 225 yards and took off 4 out of 5. I don't ordinarily do that with the other rifles. Might have been a fluke but it seemed quite easy. Maybe Cooper has something here after all. Still workin on it.
Bill Rogers` <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 04:59:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
Scout Savage; by the way forgot to mention. If you contemplate this gun either use the Aim-point or the Leupold Scout scope made for the purpose. I found pistol scopes have the parallax set for too close and the hairs are all over the target out there at 200 with a pistol scope. Duh! I should have know that going in. Luckily I went for the Leupold... because it looked good on it!
Bill Rogers` <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 05:03:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bill R: Gore's team has some more tricks. They won't work. Watch the Dem-rats try to pitch him over the side. He'll hurt them too.

The results on that Scout don't surprise me. I shot some man-on-man matches against guys who "took the training" with the Scout. They HIT and they did it FAST!

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 05:24:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: 338 Lapua Mag.

Recently i posted a few messages on other websites overseas, and received the same results. I want to confirm theese results.
*My post is as follows:
--What is the most accurate rifle system money can buy.
(Within the 100 - 1500 meter range).

I got this answer repeatedly and would like to confirm this with anyone that has had any experince with any of these systems:

1st Choice is the ( Erma Sr100 .338 LM )- no longer available?
2nd Choice is the ( AMP DSR-1 .338 LM )
3rd Choice is the ( Mauser Sr97 .338 LM )
4th Choice is the ( Accuracy Int. .338 LM )

I will be purchasing one of theese systems and as a competitive shooter/investor would like to have "the" or one of the most accurate rifle systems money can buy. ANY HELP, on specks, or any info would be appreciated.
I am not interested in .50 BMG systems.

Fred <>
MIA, Florida, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 09:28:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gore's brick wall:

The fat lady sang a week ago Sunday.

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 12:53:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC; Funny you should use those terms... from an Editorial in my Redneck hunting newsletter I sent out a couple of days ago.
"The Republicans will accuse and the Yuppies and Rich Democrats invested heavily in Wall Street will push the man from Tennessee overboard and drop the Anchor on his head. "
Could be there's some hope for this country yet!
Bill Rogers` <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 13:02:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Good Morning, I have a question regarding a Remington Model 700 PSS that I recently purchased. After purchasing the rifle, I was giving it a once over, cleaning it, etc.. and noticed that the space between the floating barrel and the HS stock is inconsistent on both sides, on one side it is closer to the stock than on the other. The barrel does not appear to touch either side of the stock, I ran a piece of paper under the barrel to confirm this. My question or questions I should say is as follows: 1. Will this inconsistency affect the barrels harmonics and therefore the rifles accuracy? 2. If this inconsistency affects the rifles accuracy, what are my best options for correcting this problem? Thanks for your help. Tyler
Tyler Hand <>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 14:20:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tyler; this is getting to be an annoying problem with floated barrels in pillar bedded stocks. As long as the barrel doesn't contact it will only mar the looks of the system. I have a Savage Scout that's off like that. The pillar bedding is OK but these molded stocks are just not always centered on that pillar. I don't recommend fooling with the bedding blocks (pillars) to cure the problem unless there is a compelling reason to do it. One can trim the close side of the stock to correct the looks Harmonics aren't affected much if any by things in close proximity. If it touches after getting hot or cold that's another story entirely. Check the pillars and be sure they aren't out of place or tilted just to be sure. Check the float of course you've already done that. Be sure the pillar is level on top but it will be. If it shoots ok you probably don't have to do anything except shave the close side to make it look right. I hate it when they do that.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 14:40:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can somebody recommend a good gunsmith for modifying a bolt handle (adding a knob) and mounting a Redfield Palma sight base? I would also welcome some suggestions for 'tuning' a newly acquired PSS. Thanks, Mike.
Mike <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 14:51:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
CDC, and 'yote Bate...

I appreciate your missguided enthusiasm towards GW Bush, but because of algore's persistance, and refusal to quit, you will loose in the end!
Regardless of the articles in the many newspapers... and in spite of the high (and lower) court decissions against algore... Well Rosterfarians, you might as well face it...

... In the end of it all... Al GORE will be President!!!

Now... Gee'Dahba' may be in the White House, and signing legislation, and doing all that official kinda stuff... but algore will be the president... just ask him!

"There's no overseeing legal authority to allow GW Bush to be President, when I R-E-A-L-L-Y W-O-N!! Just ask the people of New york, Palm Beach, and San Francisco... Dammit!!! They'll tell you that I'M THE REAL PRESIDENT... just because I'm temporarily working at a Burger King in Samolia, that doesn't make any difference...
(Did I say it right Bill... Did I do good, Mommy?)"

Tyler Hand...
Go read the archives of the Roster for the last few months... there has been a lotta chatter about Rem PSS's (but not Winchesters ;) that are outta alignment.
It's caused by irregularities in the front of the bedding block, just behind the lug.
If you have the skill, eat out some of the aluminum, and glass bed the gun (the best solution).
If you don't have the skill... and if it bothers you, then get a piece of aluminum soda can, and put on the side of the bedding block, and shim it over... it'll shoot fine! But don't chew up the stock, it won't help, and will look like shit!

Man... this site is a breath of fresh air, when compared to "reality!"


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 15:59:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


I'd like to help you out with the choice on the .338 Lapua system. The choices that you mentioned are very fine rifles. There are a couple of more systems out there that you may consider.

The Dakota Arms rifle, the T-76 Longbow is the most accurate .338 Lapua system that I have fired. I have shot all of the rifles listed in your posting, save the Mauser gun. They all shoot very well, but at the 1600 yard line, the Dakota Arms gun was still under 1 MOA. I will email you photos of the groups at various ranges.

The Dakota guns use a Lothar-Walther barrel that is giving better barrel life than any of the other guns (as far as I am aware). I recieved a test gun from Dakota last winter that already had over 2500 rounds through it. It had just been returned by the FBI. It is based on the McMillan A-2 (I recommend you ask for the A-4 stock though). Wait time is about 6 months.

The McBros action based .338 Lapua is also a very fine shooter when it is setup with a K&P Barrel by Ken Johnson. In the Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association all competitive guns are shooting using K&P barrels. Again the stock on that gun is your choice.

The ERMA is no longer being produced.
I know nothing about the AWC gun.
The accuracy international gun is good, but more money than the Dakota Arms and in my humble opinion doesn't have the barrel life that the Lothar Walther barrel does.

Tyler Hand,

As an instructor in the military on the M-24 we had lots of M-24s that had the aluminum block out of alignment in the stock that resulted in the situation that you are describing. As Bill Rogers said, it is not a problem. When I install a barrel in a stock using the pillar system, I bolt the pillars directly to the action and allow the to be over length. I then wrap an appropriate wraps of masking tape around the barrel to insure that the barrel will center up in the barrel channel.

There is sufficient clearance in the stock pillar holes where these pillars will bond into the stock to allow for some left and right clearance. Brownell's Stainless Steel bedding compound is used to bed the rifle. I clear out enough material in the action and pillar area to ensure 1/16" to 1/8" bedding material all the way around the action.

I also bed under the chamber about the length of the cartridge without the bullet in it. This is strongly debated as to whether it has an advantage or not. I simply stand behind that method. I use a 2-3 business card clearance around the barrels on all rifles anticipating heavy field use and to allow for free movement of debris around and under the barre.

I would like to add something about barrel channel clearance however. On rifles where the barrel is free floated, it has long been a practice to slide a dollar bill or a couple of pieces of paper under the barrel to check for clearance. For range guns, this is plenty of clearance.

On tactical rifles I humbly suggest that you use a bit more clearance, say 2 business cards. Here is why. If you gun is going to see some abuse on the ground, you want enough clearance to allow sand and other particles of dirt to go under the barrel without "wedging" up on the barrel because the clearance is enough to allow little "dirtlings" in, but they can freely fall out.

Take care all.

Trigger50 <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 16:01:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dean (Triggerfifty)...

Nice to see you posting here again ;)

A true welcome is extended to you.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 16:16:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

To who it may concern

My name is Nick Neblung and i and doing a 15 page long report on snipers and the history of sniping. I was looking through your site and still have not found anything that expalins when sniping was first introduced as a military tactic in war. So i was wondering if you could send a little more information my way.

Nick Neblung <>
bryant, ia, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 16:24:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito' I read into his post that he wouldn't want to bed the action but that would cure the problem of course. On the Savage I mentioned it wouldn't unless you bedded all the way out to the foreend because I think the stock moulding is off just a few hundreths. It depends on how far it's off but you're right if the thing is off very much it will look like shit when viewed from the front if you center the barrel by taking stock material off. The Savage isn't touching either and will pass the dollar bill test but I just don't like it. I use a lot of guns without it but really, for best results the bedding is desireable anyway and that would be a good thing to do in either case. But if the pillars are off wouldn't the bedding be pulling the stock back in line and thus having fiber pressure to one side? Hopefully the bedding would work but I don't know about the forces at work there. dunno!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 16:47:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tyler Hand and 700PSS Barrel Clearance:

I would think that you dont know if you have an accuracy problem untill you actually shoot the thing, if you have not done so yet. In effect, the forend on a pillar beeded and floated bolt gun is just a pretty handle for you to wrap your hand around and has effectivly been removed from the equasion by being floated. Is there enough clearance to slip something (even if its just a piece of paper) in beween the barrel and stock to clean stuff out (sorta' like dental floss). Given that, if it is not actually exibiting any problems with grouping, I would not mess with it unless I had to. If indeed the gun does not shoot to suit you, then I would look at having it rebedded completly, which would provide an opportunity to center the entire barreled action at the same time, which is what I did fora a variety of reasion not really related to cosmetic issues about the barek being centered. With the PSS, it becomes apparent that what should be and what actually is are not going to be the same thing without additional work and expense. See if it will shoot first. Then check your wallet.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 17:25:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

'yote Bate...

>>"But if the pillars are off wouldn't the bedding be pulling the stock back in line and thus having fiber pressure to one side?"<<

This stock thing is probably an area that has the most "Voo-Doo" per ounce, than any other aspect of gun building.

Think of it this way... if you build an aluminum block to hold a barreled action... then "That" is the stock (so to speak)... it's the whole support system. If the barreled action fits in there well, it will be stable (and accurate)... if it doesn't fit well, there will be consequences at the target, either large groups, or wandering POI, or both.

the plastic, kevlar, what-ever, that is molded around the aluminum block (and whatever pillers, lugs, etc), is just a pretty handle for us to hold onto.

If there is a problem with the bedding, it is at the action/aluminum-block interface... and that is where it has to be fixed. If you clean up any bits of aluminum casting that interfere with the alignment, and bed the sucka, it will be fine, and not effect the pillers, or the interface of the block, and stock.

I have had many of these M700 stocks that were a pain in the ass, and now, automatically, chew out the aluminum, and re-bed with the barrel centered with thick masking tape, and Stainless glass bedding.
Then (and only then) they are rock solid!!

I know that Mike, "The UnDude", will disagree (what else is new ;)... but I think ALL of these plastic/kevlar and aluminum block "wonder stocks" need to be properly glass bedded... even BEFORE you shoot it!


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 18:01:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

FEEDING PROBLEM ?? I have a rifle I put together years ago that just 2 weeks ago developed a last round feed problem...The rifle is based on a SAKO med action with Lilja bbl., And a brown precision stock in 250 Savage...This gun has worked flawlessly for about twenty years..Now when feeding the last round the bolt and cartridge bind up just before the cartridge is ready to clear the magazine and start into the bbl...ANY ideas???? CDC have you tried the
markwell <>
seneca, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 18:11:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
Short stroked myself..CDC have you tried the push/pull technique yet??? markwell out again
markwell <>
WVseneca, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 18:15:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Having "Experienced", every, ( I think) concievable REM 700, and HS stock problem there is, I feel I can officially throw in my .02's.

Mr. Bill, Lito san', and Triggerfly, all have given you excellent advice, and correct advice to cure your malady's.

I have found that on a caliber of .308, you need at LEAST .050/.060, of clearance between the barrel and stock.

As TF said for field work 2/3 business cards clearance will do.

I think that you need at least that much clearance on ALL of the .308's, in the HS stocks, or any other free floated for that matter.
The reason being, when you touch off a round, the barrel on the .308 will move enough to upset the harmonics and cause shot deviation and dispersion, if it comes into contact with the stock.

As Patron lito' remarked, your stock doesn't do sqaut, if it's bolted to the aluminum block, it's just something to hold on to.
a major problem with the HS set up and Rem 700's, is the fact that the PILLAR's do nothing............

The action rests on the block, and as stated by our fearless lito', if it ain't full length bedded you aren't EVER going to get the full potential from your piece.( and Free floated properly).

The barreled action will move around constantly, and differently from shot to shot.It has got to be Leveled, and as straight as possible.

Having said this, I agree also with Mr. Miller, I have had numerous PSS's that will shoot sub .5 moa, all day without doing the bedding routine.

BUT, they will be far more consistent, and trustworthy for the long haul if you bed them.

Also, if you torque the action screws down to 50/65 inch pounds, (which you should), if you Don't bed them sooner or later you run the risk of cracking the BDL triggerguard from flexing, and work hardening.( if you torque them more than factory).

Just for your own info, take your action out of the stock, and put some bluing on the action, at the front screw area, and at the tang.
Set it back in the stock and snug it down, you will find that the bed block and reciever do not make even contact, front or rear.

This is not conducive to the best accuracy........go with the guy's advice, they are right on.....color me been there done that, too many times!!!!

Sorry for the repeat, and long diatribe guy's!!!

Two Shoes
Still waitin in Texas!!!!
Terry <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 19:05:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice, but I have one more question. If I were to have the barrel rebeded, on an average or just a swag, what would this cost, and what type of gunsmith would do this, just any or a specialist? Again, thanks for everyones input.
Tyler Hand <>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 19:33:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
First off, Patron 'Lito, I think you're only telling half the story on algor. There's an unwritten rule that says a previous president will not come out publicly with statements on the current presidency. Look for slimy willy to be making "see there, he's destroying all the work we did for the American people" statements every week or so. He won't "go gently into that good night". As for algor, got a good quote from him: "I'm sorry I ever invented the Electoral College." Al Gore, 11-8-2000 ;-) I laughed until I hurt on that one! My only Christmas wish is to see all of thier faces on milk cartons come new years!

And am I chasing a ghost here? I'm trying to get 3300 fps with that CAR and 55 BTHP's (as I was informed yesterday, they're not SMK's! HA!). I thought that was the velocity of the old 55 gr mil load, no? I'm gonna try Varget today in it, and maybe 2520. If those don't work, I don't know where to go. Any suggestions on this would be helpful, as I don't think it'll make it. So far the velocity spread hasn't been all that good when I pump them up too. So what gives?
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
looking for that banana algor to split, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 19:35:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


They are TOO, SMK... lookie at the website:

And go to bullets, and at the top of the page, choose "Matchkings, and those little guys will be at the top of the list!

How long is the barrel... I get 3400-3500 out of .223 in full grown barrels.
Varget, and AA2520 are probably too slow to give you the velocity you need... try "Benchmark", a great "micro-stick", that flows like water through a measure, and is just slightly faster than H4895. It will give you the velocity you want, unless the barrel is too short to make it, and it burns really clean!


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 20:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

55 grain FMJ military spec. M196 was 3,250 fps using the 20" barrel length. I've never chronographed any this fast. From a CAR with a 16" barrel or M4 clone with a 14" plus 2" welded flash supressor you might get into the 2,750 fps range.
Ammunition, unlike women and motorcycles, faster isn't always better.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 20:24:17 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thank you for the info. I have fired the Dakota, it's a very fine rifle. However, i was looking for info regarding,the AMP DSR-1 which also has the Walther barrel. The price tag is a bit steep, at 7,500 right up there with the best 50's. it's the hollidays and what the heck. But i want to research the possibilities before i jump into any conclusions and pay that much money.
Thanks again,

Fred <>
MIA, FL, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 20:28:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Trigger50: Good to see you back. If Dave stays and Gooch and Rick start posting, it could turn educational.

Markwell: I've dry-fired using the 'push-pull' just enough to suspect that it would cross circut my rifle reflexes. After semester I'll fire a couple hundred shells, and get a better idea.

Link to Gore's next hurdle:

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 21:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. Range Finding w/GPS

How can a GPS be used in a range finding role? If the sniper has walked his Kill Zone and registered Target Reference Points in the GPS how accurate would the resulting range outputs be? Is this practicable? Are civilian GPS rigs accurate enough for such a task?

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 21:47:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tyler, my 1.7442 cents worth on the PSS.

I have one, I like it, the spaces on either side of the stock/barrel are not the same, it is not bedded, IT IS NOT A TACK DRIVER and never will be in its factory form. It is a factory rifle pure and simple. I think too many people expect too much from the PSS. That said it will still out shoot me most of the time, best group was a little less than .5 and average around .75. I cannot in all honesty expect more than that from a straight factory rifle, even the PSS. I might to get the average down to less than .5 if and only if I could shoot a whole lot more than I have time to shoot now. Even with a hot barrel, there is no touchy feely between the barrel and stock which is just fine.

You have already done the first thing which is to make sure that there is a dollars worth of space between the barrel and stock. Second, get yourself a 65"/# torque wrench from Premier($65 the last time I looked) and tighten the action screws to 65"/#. Re-check the space between the barrel and stock. Lastly, buy yourself a shit load of ammo and shoot it! It won't do much good to do a whole lot to it until you break it in anyway.

When you have the money (or if you have it now) find a competent "accuracy oriented" gunsmith then have it bedded if it is not shooting up to your standards or is having POI shifts. I have waited for any signs of POI shift and haven't seen them yet, if I do I will get it bedded.

Even after you do all of this, don't expect a factory rifle to shoot like a Norcal or Chandler or any of the other customs. It won't do it. One thing I have learned from the gurus here is to go slow and not put more money into tweaking a factory rifle than it is worth.

Learning something everyday, Bolt out!
Bolt <>
NC, USA - Tuesday, December 05, 2000 at 22:45:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Regarding my post on Us Optics- The reports of their demise are greatly exaggerated.
I spoke with them and was told they are alive, well and kicking. Not only are they fulfilling their USMC contract to keep the old Unertls going, they have a contract for 3 other scopes for the Devil Dogs, a 3.5x, a 10x, and a 17x.
Steve <>
Warma and sunny, Arizona, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 00:01:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

The use of GPS for precision point location is not all that new outside of the military. Civilian surveyors have precision point GPS that can locate a point on the earth to less than 10 centimeter. The handheld civilian units are not capable of this level of accuracy.

Civilian units are more capable than they used to be becuase of the decryption of the GPS satellite system that was recently placed in effect. There used to be an encryption system on the GPS constellation that limited non-military uses to 100 meters of accuracy.

With the advent of GPS guidance for the landing of civil aircraft for ILS landings, there was some pressure from the civilian side to do away with the encryption that limited the precision capability of the GPS constellation. So, with that said, YES, GPS "could" be used to index reference points in a sniper "kill" zone so to speak.

Old SF guys, Rangers, and any other infantry type would tell you that you NEVER, EVER enter your own kill zone prior to putting on the ambush. Esentially, that is what a sniper attack is, an ambush. So the act of going into your target area to "grid it out" and get precise ranges to reference points violates a couple of operational principles. All of those priniciples are well proven over many years and wars.

With that said, I am not an advocate of laser range finders. They are still NOT accurate enough, especially under adverse conditions. Good tactical sense would state that you would want know distances to reference points on the ground long prior to the target entering the area. I imagine that is why you asked about GPS for getting a good range to a target reference point.

Now, this is something of a sore subject. I am not a fan of mil relation for ranging targets. I won't get into why because of the heat it caused on this site some time ago. I'd be happy to discuss it with you on the email net or over the phone. Allow me to present another method.

My humble apologies for raising the fur of anyone who disagrees with this method. You don't have to use it, like it or approve of it. It simply works.

Theodolites are very accurate for gridding out a kill zone long before a target enters the area. Indeed, with some time and small effort, you can get multiple ranges to multiple objects in a kill zone to within an accuracy level of 1.4 meters at 1600 meters. It takes a 1" theodolite to do this, which is extreme, but it can be done. A 6" theodolite will do as good as you need to do.

Theodolites take multiple angle readings and take known sizes of objects (kind of the same that mil relation does), but can use much smaller objects. There is another method that doesn't require a known size at all, you simply have to aim the theodolite at the same point on the ground every time. It is simple surveying.

Now, it takes way more time and space that I can put on this website to publish the method. Anyone interested, please contact me on the email net. Be glad to help out.

Take care all...
Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 00:40:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Book data for the 20" A2's using M-193 is 3271fps
using M-855 is 3113fps
data for the 14.5 M4A1's has M-193 @ 3015
and M-855 @ 2916

Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 00:41:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry, I misposted my email on my last posting. Here is another email.
Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 00:41:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dean - yes but who humps the Theodolite?
Chicken and Egg argument again.
Agreed totally on your assesment of entering the KZ.
I dislike Laser Rangers the same reason I hate GPS
It Make YOU lazy - a backup yes but not a primary.
Lasers are good to christen the ground to make a range card (better yet to double check your ranges on the card)

Extreme LR I can see the value of the Theo, after all yor dragging that 35lb POS anyway what's the Theo and its tripod to boot. The range errors at 1000+m would make me want to take the extra gear. That, and the 10x mildot system gets really loose at long range Hmm! I see one big blur that looks like its about .6 a mil.

Mil Ranging is great for known size objects - M16A2/C7, AK-47/74's, Helmets, Tires and Roadwheels, canteens etc.
But how tall is Mr Evil? 5'8 or 6'4 - those erros are disasterous at LR.

Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 00:54:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can't remember if I have brought this up before but if I have just chalk it up to a case of CRS.

Is it worthwhile to reload without using a chronograph to check your loads? Simple question but I now have to budget for one if that is the case. I don't see any other way to check your loads except for the accuracy part.
Bolt <>
NC, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 00:54:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


Good comments across the board. I'm in total agreement with you. Here's another way to look at the theodolite.

1. Replace your spotting scope with it. This is for extreme range shooting. Tailor the gear for the mission. Toss the regular spotting scope. The theodolite does a very good job of reading trace.

2. Many teams carry lasers now. By replacing the laser and the spotting scope, you have probably saved some weight. Baseplates for the theodolite can be made from carbon fiber for weight. All you need are legs about 6" long. Have made them before, not a big deal.

Range determination is a necessary animal becuase of Danger Space. The danger space dimension is the distance that drives the level of accuracy needed when determining a range to a target.

For example, a 1000 yard shot on a human target requires about 2 minutes of angle of accuracy from the gun/shooter to hit that target. The level of accuracy needed to get a shot into that 2 minute of angle circle is only an allowable error of 22 meters. That's 11 meters in front of the target and 11 meters behind the target. Misdetermine the range by 15 meters long and you'll shoot over that target.

Just for comparison the same 2 MOA target has a danger space of 46 yards for the 338 Lapua and a 120 meter allowable error using a .50 caliber rifle against a 1 METER target. Cartidge/load is a major factor here.

Here's an analysis of the errors that are encountered when using mil relation for LONG RANGE interdiction. For most combat shooting, the mil relation is okay as long as the target agrees to stand still long enough to be engaged.


MIL Reading @ 3.5 Mils = 5 meters X 1000 = 5000 divide by 3.5 MILS = 1429 Meters
MIL Reading @ 3.0 Mils = 5 meters X 1000 = 5000 divide by 3.0 MILS = 1667 Meters

ERROR = 238 Meters split in half for a center aim (119 meters in front of and behind the target). This is outside the parameters for an 5 meter target (125 meter DS, split in half = 62.5 meters in front and behind the target). This is a miss on the overall target. The key number is the split. If the range error split is larger than the DS split, a can will occur, long or short.


MIL Reading @ 3.0 Mils =5 meters X 1000 = 5000 divide by 3.0 MILS = 1667 Meters
MIL Reading @ 3.25 Mils =5 meters X 1000 = 5000 divide by 3.25 MILS = 1538 Meters

ERROR = 129 Meters split in half for a center aim (64.5 meters in front of and behind the target). This is outside the parameters for a 5 meter target (125 meter DS, split in half = 62.5 meters in front and behind the target). A miss can occur with only a ¼ Mil error.


MIL Reading @ 3.0 Mils =5 meters X 1000 = 5000 divide by 3.0 MILS = 1667 Meters
MIL Reading @ 3.1 Mils =5 meters X 1000 = 5000 divide by 3.25 MILS = 1613 Meters

ERROR = 54 Meters split in half for a center aim (27 meters in front of and behind the target). This is within parameters for an 5 meter target (125 meter DS, split in half = 62.5 meters in front and behind the target). This small error is okay to hit a target 5 meters high.

I have carried the theodolite as have other operators. Yep, it's a pain, but damn, it is accurate. Jacob Bynum at Sniper Country is on board with this method and he swears by it. It's accurate, dead on. For "passive" range finding systems, it is unbeatable. Again, my humble opinion.

:) good to see you all again...

Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 01:15:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


I handloaded for a couple of years without using a chrono, and used a real crappy scale too. My ammo was not very consistant to say the least. My 600yd scores sucked real bad, and I just figured it was ALL my fault. Then I got some good reloading equipment, and I started to shoot "cleans" at 600yds. Now my handloads are better than the store-bought "Match" ammo. I think the chrony is worth the expense. So is a good reliable scale. Get a good bullet seating die too.

Best Regards,
Bill B <>
ky, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 01:57:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito' I think your right about the voo doo. If you look back I become strangely silent when stocks are mentioned. When you guys say you full length bed I take that to mean all the way to the fore end? That's a question. My thinking was always that the barrel would heat up and change diameter thus causeing pressure against the bedding and moving the impact point. My preference was to bed just about 2 or 3 inches forward of the the action in the heavy part of the barrel. Mostly I just free float and let it go. Bedding the action lugs and rear contact points seem to help to a great extent when I take the time to do it. One reason I bed (when I do) is to keep down the tightening stresses and provide an even platform for tightening the lugs and barrel not to mention the action itself needs support where possible. Another is to provide to eliminate the spongy stock (when it's wood)as a source of movement. Your absolutely on target when you say properly bedded guns shoot better. But Pillar bedding is a cheap and easy way to provide a good shot from an otherwise unstable system. The Savage scout is a great example as this bitch will outshoot my Remington VSS and it's just not in the same class to look at it. Maybe there are other reasons for that but it's much more temperature stable.
Bravo, I find the 3000 fps barrier hard to break with a CAR of less than 18" Length. 2880 is about right for a 16". This is with Varget, 2230 or even imr 4895 as a rule. The short barrels eat your velocity much faster with the .22's than the .308's. The same 4" on your .308 is about 50fps to 70fps. In .223 its' couple hundred fps.

Trigger; I remember when you introduced the method you speak of and the problems encountered. It should be apparent that shooting a 50 is something that needs a little better range estimation. I tried it though I didn't stay with it thinking it was for longer range situations but it did everything you say. A sniper could check his Mil dot readings by crawling to a different place and ranging his old position with a LAZER and not having to shoot the LAZER detectors at the site he wants to shoot into. I find it a little laughable that one would measure the distance by walking it out where he would want to shoot. Hell might as well push a measuring wheel! I ALWAYS tend to underestimate the range with MILDOTS. I wish I knew why. I'll range a spot 2 or 3 times and come up with the same reading. Don't know why!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:04:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Being the roster hog I am.... can I tell you about my old TRS 80 hand computer programmed in BASIC that you can enter the Mil-dot reading and the wind speed and it tells you how many clicks to move it. It might be a little faster than even a Mil Dot master but it requires BATTERIES and gets hard to read in he dusk. It has a feature to just put in your range guess and wind guess and get the reading so you don't have to MIL it if you don't want too. Just for S&G I tried the "guess" mode and was 10% more accurate in guessing the range from scratch than MIL DOTS and 50% faster. This thing is the size of a calculator and is virtually idiot proof (evidenced by my using it).
I wish I could read MIL DOTs better. shucks!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Regarding high desert climitization..

I recently moved from 700 feet above sea level in Northern California, to 6000 ft ASL in Southern Colorado. I had to take a nap every day for two weeks. My energy was shot. Before the move I ran four miles a day. Now two months later I still get winded going up and down the stairs. In addition to the altitude, its a much drier climate. You might want to keep your nose moist with some vasiline to prevent nosebleeds.

pete robertson <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:20:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Trigger 50...

Good presentation, but I would differ on a few things.
The shooter should be able to do better than 2 moa in the field, or give the riffle to the other guy.

My issue with lasers is not that they're inaccurate... thegood ones are very accurate... it's that they are active.
At night (or evening) everybody with a NVD has you dead bang! In the day, you have to range objects around the target, and interpolate, because a direct ranging on the target (if human, and mil smart) will have a laser receiver, and will move, and may send you e-mail.

I wouldn't know a theodolite, if the postman dropped one of on the porch... Hmmm time to go to the survey store, and see what it is!

And speaking of Carbon fiber... it would seem that the time has come (or returned) for a light 1 meter, split image,dn'tical rangefinder that weighed 4 or 5 pounds (instead of 35, like the 70's artillary units)... would be fast, accurate, no need to know the size of the target, no calculating, totally passive.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:21:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Robar sr90 with swarovski 4-16 scope. I have been shooting federal match 168 & 175 grn factory ammo. I would like to start reloading to increase accuracy. I don't know where to start or what to buy, I want to buy very precise instruments but don't know which ones are the best. I know I need a reloading manual but I want one that pertains to extreme accuracy rather than a basic one.

I searched just about everywhere I could think of without success.
Any and all input is greatly appreciated (preferably on precise reloading components and gauges, and a good accurate reloading book)


nick <>
slc, ut, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:29:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

First, glad to be back on the Roster...

Re: Chronographs: Midway 1-800-243-3220 has Chrony models on sale this month. Model F1 = 64.99, Master F1 = 84.99, Master Alpha = 99.99, and Master Beta (yeah, go ahead and laugh) for 109.99. All prices are including shipping. My wonderful wife is buying me the Beta Master for Christmas :)

I'm happy with my reloading, but I intend to make it better soon.

What is the best way to become a gunsmith/armourer? There are no local schools. Is it necessary (or how helpful is it) to take machinist training first? Disability has me looking for a change of venue...

Thanks, buk out
buk <>
backtoshootingin, Arkansas, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:40:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

GPS and theodolites - Let me preface this by saying that I work as a surveyor for a civil engineering company, more specifically I do the survey calcs among other things.

While the absolute accuracy of the handheld gps units is good to the order of 30 meters plus or minus, their relative accuracy is much better than that, that is anginiven series of coordinates collected by a gps unit at a given time will be accurate to a couple of meters within the set of coordinates. Their location at any given point on the face of the earth could be off by 30 meters or so. That said, Triggerfifty is absolutely right about wandering around collection data in your kill zone. You might as well be picking daisies.

I'm interested in the theodolite angle tho. Those that I've used over the years have been bulky and heavy to say the least, and being precision instruments require heavy duty protective cases to keep them from being knocked out of alignment. They might serve for someone who is shooting from a prepared position and who has a several other personnel to help pack the equipment around and set it up, but I can't see a two or three man team handling the task. I'm curious as to how you get data that accurate from a theodolite with one setup. I'm not doubting that it's done, just interested in the process from a professional standpoint.

Good topographic maps and aerial photos would seem to be the logical choice for range cards and data in an unfamiliar area, unless the area is so flat as to not have any topography. With experience and reliable topographic maps, most people should be able to locate themselves and their target within 10 meters or so, assuming the ability to observe the terrain. I would assume that since we are discussing long range shots on a target, that there is enough of the surrounding terrain visible to identify your location.

Pat T
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:54:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, here's my $0.02 worth on rangefinder/ranging. Two words - Barr & Stroud !! Works great !!

Targets Up !!
Will <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 02:57:08 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for the compliment. About the 2 MOA standard. That was the standard and still is when developing shooting scenarios at SOTIC (unless they've tightened the standard) at Fort Bragg and the outbound SOTIC detachments at the different SF groups. That is what a sniper is expected to be able to hold to under any condition; environmental, meteorological (any wind), ammunition (all types) and any issued sniper weapon system.

Targets for training developed on the basis that they will NOT be narrower than 2 MOA wide (movers being 9" wide at a max range of 400 yards for example). The standard of 2 MOA is more for training than for operational capability.

We see the problems with the lasers and their ability to be detected. Laser detection systems were one of the first counter-measures developed after the advent of laser range finders. It was kept quiet because no one wanted anyone to know about the counter-measure capability. I do have one difference on a laser though. They are NOT detectable by any NVG. There are two different types of lasers used in battlefield, weapons mounted systems. Visibile light lasers are visible to the naked eye. IR lasers for pointing targets are visible at the source and along the beam as viewed from the side.

The MELIOS and AN/GVS-5 laser range finders are not visible along the side of the beam. An observer within a 5 degree cone of the point of the source of the beam has a chance at seeing the beam. The lasers effect on the NVGs isn't good. We've tested the NVGs ability to detect laser range finders and they cannot generally do it on hand held systems. Tank laser range finders is a different deal though.

As for your 1 meter split image range finder, i'd love to have one. I know they make the Barr and Stroud. In carbon fiber, that baby would be the deal. Still would take a theodolite though. Maybe a pound heavier, but much more compact.


on the LAZER

The old .50 caliber rifle has been severely over-rated on it's long range power. It shoots a big bullet, and the military bullets are not all that efficient in flight. They also don't go particularly fast as you all know. Hell, the go sub-sonic at only 1400-1500 meters, depending on conditions. How, the CNC machined bullets, are another matter. The .338 Lapua and the new .408 CheyTac cartridges are the true 1600 meter cartridges.

Will be wringing out a .408 CheyTac soon. Keep you posted.

A note on mil range finding with the Mil relation method. Another factor on how precise this method gets is based on the quality of the lenses used in the riflescope. The Leupold scopes have a resolution of only 44 line pair per millimeter. US Optics high resolution lenses push around 100 line pair per millimeter.

Errors in long range estimation constantly show up in lower resolution scopes. In side by side tests of Leupold and US Optics scopes of the same power, the US Optics scopes always have gotten me better accuracy for Mil relation. It's not mentioned much, but I was curious one time and the simple 1 hour test became a 1 week deal.

I need to be less long winded. sheesh.
Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 03:10:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I can't believe you guys are all talking about this stuff. Your crowd really scares me! I don't think we should allow guns in the USA as they are evil. All this talk about accurate sniping is a bunch of BS. Bunch of killers if you ask me. I am going to write my Senator and ask this site to be shut down.

MIke <>
Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 03:22:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,

Wouldn't even respond to that trashcan Mike from Austin. What is HGI anyway? Thought it was HCI.

Back to theodolites. I've extracted about 21 pages from my Hard Target Interdiction book. It's about 4.5 MB of information with images and charts included.

Anyone that is interested, i'll be happy to forward this data for you to read over. It's extensive. Because of the size of this file and the fact that it will take a long time to send, i'm going to hold off bursting it out for a couple of hours.

Anyone interested please use my other email address:

Thanks, glad to help out... Mike, what trash, maybe a comment is needed. Move to a country that more supports your socialist point of view. Entry into their country is more difficult than ours, but so is leaving. By the way, need a plane ticket and a suitcase. I'll pay the bill and hand carry you to the boat.

Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 03:32:38 (ZULU) (your host address:


Don't even start with this individual, we finally got over the "bad Kevin" thread.

Later dudes.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 03:33:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Aw shit... we got another one.
It must be the season...

Ken... where's that filter.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 03:36:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

To Mike:
Oh boy..another idiot that opens his mouth before his brain is in gear. I have a question for you sir- Without the men and women who wear blue and green, protecting YOUR rights, where would you be? The last time I checked, this was America, Land of the Brave and Home of the FREE. Land of the Brave, Hmmmm..what does that mean to you Mike? To me, it means to pay tribute to the MILLIONS of Americans who have laid their life on the line so that you may come on here and make the kind of comment you did, without fear of retribution from your "Free Speech". It also means to HONOR the ones that answered the numerous calls of our country, and unfortunately did not make it back home to the love ones they left behind! So sir, I suggest that you engage your brain gear before opening your mouth.
You need to do some research Mike. GUNS Made America, and GUNS keep America Free, and provide the citizens protection, not only from their government, but from the criminal predators that roam this country. If you don't believe that, you need to move to someplace like Australia, where they recently outlawed most weapons and put severe restraints on the ownership of the rest. Homicide rates up %400, Burglaries close to %1200. You live in the USA sir, and if you believe that the police are there to protect you, and will be there in seconds when called, you have a big suprise coming!! Police departments are REACTIVE- Not PROACTIVE. So, when you are in bed one night and that burglar is holding a knife to your throat....guess we know who will be the next statistic!

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 03:51:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just my 2 cents on scopes-
having used multiple US Optics,Leupolds, and other scopes for several years in different versions....I have found the following.
1) It's darn hard to find a bad Leupold. Yeah, others may have better glass, brighter optics, etc...but just about no one comes close to a better all around product at a good price.
2) It's darn hard to find a good US Optics. The glass is great, the internals are not.
3) Some of them there foreign scopes are pretty awesome (Swarovski comes to mind) but the foreign exchange rate will hurt.
4) Some good ones -like the B&L are no longer made (right Pablito?)but worth hunting down.

Trigger-were your scopes from US Optics fixed power? That may explain your results...

BTW- should we appoint that twit from HGI as our first contestant in the Texas Survivor game?

This is all in my limited experience-your milage may vary......

Mictac <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 03:57:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry guys for the outburst. Going back to lurking mode now.
Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 04:01:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
How would i go about preparing if my eventual goal is to become a swat sniper? that is what i would like to do, but plans might change. just trying to find out for now.
Greg Poler <>
Danville, PA, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 04:10:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
IGNORE MODE ON. Is there some lock-out capability?

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 04:15:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm not sure of the Url of the information stated below as it was forwarded to me as a text document but here goes...If anyone has seen or knows the url I would appreciate them posting or forwarding:

Here are a few interesting stastics from a breakdown map of counties won by George Bush Jr and Al Gore as compiled by law professor Joseph Olsen. The last item is, perhaps, the most telling:

Counties won by Bush: 2434
Counties won by Gore 677
Population of counties won by Bush: 143 million
Population of counties won by Gore 127 Million
Square miles of country won by Bush: 2,427,000
Square miles of country won by Gore: 580,000
States won by Bush: 29
States won by Gore: 19

And now for the most remarkable finding....
Average Murders per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 0.1
Average Murders per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2

One more interesting fact that might help explain these disparate murder rates. Gun ownership in the counties won by Bush is much higher than in counties won by Gore.

Now I know there are stastics, lies, and damn lies but I would say the American people have expressed their will....let it be done!!!

Str8shot <>
Damn cold and snowing, MI, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 04:38:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh for the love of God... Why, why, WHY Lord did this latest troll have to come from Austin? Makes me embarassed of my beloved city.

You know gents, there's only so much oxygen in the world, and this "HGI" supporter is taking some of it. We're going to start running low on O2 some day. That could be my oxygen...
Roger C. <>
Grinding my teeth in Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 04:43:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

I've been here several times over the years and have gone through some old posts and always learn something while here. Here's a shot at my first question.

What do you think of the .25-06 as a long range caliber? Pros/Cons.

Also, I am all ready to roll with this caliber and am looking for any feedback as to hints, suggestions, expectations and things to avoid with it.

Thanks for any input, it will be greatly appreciated! :)

Plainsman <>
ND, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 04:44:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


Good advice on rifles. One of my friends has a PSS with about 5,000 rounds through it. He has one load that it loves and that's all he shoots. Believe it's about 39.5 of IMR 4895 and a Sierra 168. He shoots all the time and beat me last year for tight group at 600 prone.

My first "heavy" rifle was a .223 Rem 700 Varmint Special. Moved from that to my custom M40A1 clone w/Obermeyer Barrel. I've learned to NEVER blame the gun. It shoots way better than I can.

Got a .308 Varmint Special in almost unfired condition...shoots about 1/2 MOA with anything I stuff in it...damn!

My 6.5 x .284 Chandler gun is a cut above. I appreciate it and it's accuracy/quality. The .308 is, for all intensive purposes, identical and makes a great understudy gun...

Who the hell is "Mike". Thought a guy like that would have been run out of Tejas a long time ago...
What's wrong with you native Texans?

You know, it kinda makes me proud that he's "scared".

Keep your feces cohesive...

Semper Fi,

(Looking for the BS filters for my mask...)
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 04:58:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looking for some input
Has anyone read the articles in S.W.A.T. mag ref: Tactical Operations Tango 51 and the last one on the shortened barrels? The reason I ask is that I am looking into putting a 20" barrel on my PSS or even having them cut and recrown my existing barrel. I've contacted them and they said it can be done(cutting my barrel). Now my questions are has anyone heard anything good or bad about this co., what should I expect from them if I have them cut and recrown my existing barrel, do you think its a bad idea and I should just buy a new 20" barrel. Basiclly I'm looking for any kind of input on the subject. Also does anyone know of a manufacture that makes a floor plate to replace the DM on the PSS. Thanks DM Tanaka.
D.M. Tanaka <>
ft campbell, ky, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 05:25:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mike, it's painfully obvious you are woefully ignorant of where you live, and who you are.
As a fellow Texan, (God forbid), please feel free to write OUR Senators.
You will not get the time of day, which you do not deserve.
Both our Senators, and Congressman, are solidly in the camp of the 2nd Amendment.
I suggest you do some research, and get your shit together before you post back here again.
We are not the people you should fear.
The people you are in bed with have poisoned your mind with propaganda, guns are not EVIL.
Guns are tools, they do the bidding of the responsible person using them, or the idiot, they have no mind, they cannot act alone, they are inanimate objects...........nothing more, nothing less.
Until you, and people like you get the message, that PEOPLE are responsible for their actions, and not the implements they use for chaos, and destruction you and they will never mature into rational and thinking adults.........IF you are one.
Judging by your post, I am inclined to believe you are not.
As another has already brought forth, instead of being afraid, why don't you get on your knees and thank God Almighty there are/ have been countless hundreds of thousands, even millions that have served and died for your sorry that you can be AFRAID.
Like the MAN said, how do you think you even GOT the right to speak freely on this forum, or any where else for that matter?.
It's because of these same guy's you are afraid of, they are the ones that have, and do put it all on the line for even people who think as you do.
Ignorance is truly bliss, and you could definitely use some schooling................
Rant mode off, sorry guys.........
Two Shoes

Terry <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 05:27:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a question for all of you. I bought a kowa 611 and i was wondering if anywhere sells an aftermarket waterproof thing to screw over the 25x long eye relief eyepiece.

I've seen postings of people suggesting it but i've only seen it for sale for the tsn-821 and the tsn-1. like this one


Also is the 25x lf eye piece alot better than the 20x - 60x? thanks


winston <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 05:28:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike from Austin,

You owe a great deal to people here and others who prefer to think for themselves(once again) for protecting you from yourself.

Now go tell your mother she wants you.

Good Evening Rabon

Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 05:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm a frequent viewer of snipercountry and a former police sniper and current long range shooter. I admire the "regulars" here and try to glean as much knowledge as I can from this site. I think "mike" is a veery confused person and might want to stick to the more liberal websites because as people told "kevin" not too long ago, you want to be careful insulting people that can reach out and touch someone-if "mike" will go back into the archives he will see that not only can people here shoot, they can figure out they can find out where you are!!! To the "regulars"-Pablito, Rick, Scott, Bill, etc.; I'm a avid reader and student. I consider myself the silent shooter, one of many that avidly is on this website.
Greg in Louisiana
Greg <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 05:44:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
TRig' Perhaps i didn't make myself clear on what I'm using the LZR for anyway it's not worth your time and it might confuse the issue but I'd bet there are others that would like to hear your method. Use some bytes, I thought I understood that you were using 2 points along a straight line of known distance to shoot angles and calculate the distance with trigonometry. Straighten me out if that's off base.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 05:45:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Plainsman' I've been seeing the 25-06 as the most underrated cartridge around for a long time. It has to distance and power to do the job for all but the longest ranges. i've used it myself for a wide variety of hunting. AS a Sniper round, I dunno, sometimes it throws one but they all do at times. The barrel life might be an issue with some. But it will last as long as the .300 win mag. and can be loaded down or up with good results. My 2 cents is all its worth but it has my respect. The best plains rifle I've seen. I had a friend lost a good mule deer in Wyo a few years back cause he killed it so far away 800 yards he couldn't find it before dark... and that's the truth. It was a mile and a half to cover the 800.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 05:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mr. Tenaka; have at it, you will love it! You won't loose much velocity on a .308 and it will help the handling a bunch.
You might consider a more accurate barrel if yours isn't doing well or is worn by a few thousand rounds. Remington has 20" barrels too but I'd stay with something better if you can.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 06:00:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone have any opinions about Remington's 40XB repeater compared to a standard 700 PSS? The one I am looking at is marked 7.62 NATO instead of 308 WIN, does anyone have any knowledge about the importance of that? Who makes the stock they put on these guns? If any or all of these are dumn questions, please let me know why...

Greg <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 06:07:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref : .338 Lapua Magnum,

You may want to look at the Sako TRG series of sniper rifle's, inparticular the new TRG-42,I have a TRG-41 that has the barrel threaded for the new thread on larger TRG-42 muzzle brake,as well as the thread on brake I have a reflex T8M suppressor that uses the same thread.At the moment I am breaking in the barrel,using the method out lined in Trigger50's book on .50 BMG rifles,you know you have fired a round,but its not too bad,once the break in is done most shooting will be done with the T8M can in place.One thing to be aware of with the Sako gun is the twist is 1-12,and as such the heaviest you can shoot is 250gr bullets,the seirra 300gr mk will probabily be unstable,still the word I get is th Lapua made 338 bullets are better made,and more accurate and cheaper,and easier to sourch down under.
I am looking forward to shooting it against a friend who has a McBros .338LM w/ a NXS scope,and seeing how it compares.

Finally I know of only 2 338 systems in service in large numbers by Armies, the Sako TRG-42 and the AI, AWM.

Of the 2 the Sako only cost's 1/2 of the over priced AI gun,true value for money,just my 2 cents.

Chris <>
New Zealand - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 06:21:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Buk and How to Become A Gunsmith:

Aside from attending a school, it is possible to lear a whole lot of stuff via other means. First, it pays to buy books. How many books? All you can afford, and a few more. Roy Dunlaps _Gunsmithing_ covers a lot of stuff very well for starters, though it dosn't cover modern materials and methods on building bolt guns, but it has a lot of the basics. Brownells sells Dunlap's and many other books. Oh, you *have* to get a Brownells catalog as well. 95+% of everything you need is available from them.

Second, it pays to carve on your own guns and make a few mistakes. Its not fun screwing up on your own gun, but its a lot less fun to screw up a customers. Go buy some Mosin Nagants, as they are plentiful and cheap right now. They can be had for a little as $50 retail. Once you have cut them up, you can get a couple of 98 Mausers @ $100 or so. Those are the most useful, becasue you can get all sort of parts and gizzies for them to work with. Jerry Kuhnhausen sells a manual on how to work with 98 Mausers. It is invaluable. Do triggers (with and without dropping in a Timney trigger-Dunlap shows you how to get a good trigger by modifying the military one- a bit tough to do, but interesting), refinish stocks, glas bed actions, mount scopes, bend/reforge/weld bolt handles. Do a recoil pad without a belt/disk sancer (do this once and you will be shopping for belt/disk sander, let me tell you...:). In short, bucher the HELL out of some cheap guns. After a while your buchery will start to become more refined... :)

Lastly. see if you can find a working gunsmith to hang with. In my case, I started hanging out at a local gun shop as a youngster. I hung out so mcuh, they put me to work as a counter sales type in exchange for ammunition. Then they started letting me work on guns when things got busy in the fall, and I started to get reasonably good. Then, the gunsmith had a heart attack and left, so I was the sole gunsmith for the next nine months untill the store closed. Sink-or-swim time. I swam. :) I was shipped along with that stores inventor over to another stode and was their 'smith untill *they* closed a year or two later. Starting to see a pattern here? :) I worked with some rather talented "General Purpose" gunsmiths at these stores, and learned a lot.

In the meantime, I linked up with one of the better NM gas gun builders in the US and started to hang with him, so he put me to work as an apprentice of sorts, and I aquired a lot of relativly arcane knowlege about building National Match M1 and M14 rifles. He had gone through the RTE school at Quantico and one of his rifles took High Civilian at Perry one year, and I applied myself to my studies pretty intensly, so I got fairly good at that stuff, too. Kuhnhause has a manual for gas guns, too, and it is invaluable as well. I dont know if any manual is nearly sufficient for this work, though. It realy is intricate compared to your more typical bolt gun work. ARs are much simpler and less tooling intensive to work on, by comparison.

Also in the meantime, I had taken about half an associates degrees worth of machine tool courses at the local tech school, where sympathetic night instructors allowed me to make gunsmithy tooling instead of the canned projects that most of the students did. Having some machinist skills is a very good thing, particularly if you want to be a specialist in a subfield that requires precision metal work, the two subspecialties that come to mind first here being the fitting up of barrels on rifles and a lot of the more sophisticated M1911 work. However, most work in the typical gun shop mostly involves cleaning, swapping out worn or broken parts and troubleshooting. There really is'nt a lot of application for sophisitcated metal or woodworking skills for 95% of gun shop work. Basic mechanical aptitude and the capacity to analyze a system and determine why it is'nt working are the skills most often called upon.

And now? I attend graduate school and plan on going into teaching. For the money. That give you some idea of what I think of gunsmithing as a way to make a living? :) Frankly, by the time you get good at it, you are good at multiple skills, any one of which can probably earn you more money doing something else.

Bill Rogers and "full length" bedding:

I have known 'smiths that swear by bedding a stock all the way out to the tip of the forend to this day. It works for them, but they are very through about how they seal the wood in the forend, and they arent building match or tactical rifles in any event. This is what I think of when somebody says "full-length bedding" as well, but I think in this setting you can assume that most folks dont bed too far beyond the end of the receiver.

Personaly, I vary my approach depending on how a job feels. Sometimes I bed so that the front action screw is centered in the front block of bedding compound, sometimes I bed a section of barrel equal to the length of the front reciever ring, and sometimes I bed out to (but never beyond: I dont know hom much they grow in diameter but barrels do grow longer when heated up and I belive that bedding beyond the step will cause the barrel to "climb" the ramp of bedding, causing all sorts of non-good things to happen) the end of the first straight section of the barrel. I havent noticed one approach working much better than any of the others.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 06:39:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Look at this. I take off for a little while, and the whole board goes up in a flash! What a moron, I think we've got a new comic relief on board, or possibly a re-hash of the same old one - no, not me - yes me, er, no, it really wasn't! HA! Yeah, go tell Ron Paul all about us (VBG)

Trigger 50: good to see you hanging around with party boys again. You here to give Patron 'Lito a hand with that new 50? ;-) Liked what you had to say on the ranging being so important at long range. But if it's all right with you, I'll let you stalk with that big pig. HA!

So excuse my ignorance, but what is a theodolite? Did I drink a brain cell into oblivion and everyone knows but me, or is it commonly called something else and I just don't know the technical name? I'm with you 'Lito on the best range finder, so when you gonna whip me one up? Seriously, what do you figure the cost would be on making some of these up, 'cause I've got a feeling there would be a military contract in it if someone got busy.

So I got out today right after work and started plinking with some Varget loads in the 5.56, no data. You know, the sun has to be up higher than JUST BARELY over the horizon for a good chrono to work. Oh, BTW, I *HIGHLY* suggest the Oehler model 35. It's the best I've played with, and glad I got it, it's MUCH better than the last "other brand". So now one of you bright guys help me out. How fast of a muzzle velocity do I need with a 55 SMK to keep 2800 fps at 400 yards? I'm tired of chasing ghosts. I think I'll just go back to trying to punch small holes in paper. After all, it's hits that count, right?
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
looking to skirt yet another idiot, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 07:09:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have seen mention of a spotting scope with a Mil-Dot reticle installed. Why does a discussion of rangefinding methods not include this? Higher magnification makes for better accuracy... Passive... elimmates other battery powered equipment... What am I missing?
Percy <>
Northern, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 07:41:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
Stan - I sent you this via email but I thought I'd post it here too.

Book Data (Recon Econ's SOTIC Book - reach him @
Wpn Ammo Range(M)/Vel
M16A2 M193 MV/3271 100/2851 200/2447 300/2073 400/1735 500/1433
" M855 MV/3113 100/2759 200/2431 300/2127 400/1845 500/1591
M4 M193 MV/3015 100/2608 200/2235 300/1894 400/1590 500/1333
" M855 MV/2916 100/2577 200/2262 300/1970 400/1703 500/1465

Now the moral of this story seems to indicate USE SS109 past 200m
Don't use 77gr out of M4's (drop like stone)

Stan - it is a CARBINE.

Remember 1) I use my pistol to buy time to get to my rifle
2) I use my Rifle to buy time for my Bolt gun :)
Tee Hee

Question: I have a SR-15 tentatively on its way - I've heard some great things about them - unlike its big Bro (well you know those 7.62mm Gas Guns ) Any hands-on input?

Kevin <>
CANADA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 08:00:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

REF: 338 Lapua Mag.

Thanks for the info Chris ,

My very first choice was the Sako TRG 42.. This was before i fired the Accuracy international in the .338, -i personally like the Sako-, but the recoil is much less on the AI. I can probably bet, you purchased it from Mr. Tanni in Finland. I spoke to him several times regarding this "race horse" (TRG 42).
I will be purchasing the AMP's DSR-1 .338 LM, after careful consideration with all brands i was dumbstruck, at performance overall, and caliber conversion possibility. Especially if they finally offer the caliber conversion kit in the .408 Cheyenne Tac.

thanks again,
P.S. I always use Lapua ammunition.


Fred <>
MIA, Florida, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 09:37:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

To Scot,
Iam glad to hear that somewon other than I stillshowes intrest in the 788.I hav 2 a short barrel and along barrel.The long is a 222 rem.will shoot the eye out of a rat at 250 yds.,
The short barrel is a 243 win.IMR4350 and 80gr. spitzer. I havnot shot past100yds. yet but with a little work i am betting it will be a sshooter also. Iam sure the acton on the 308 would be strong enouf to do what you wanted.Me wouldnot worry about the bolt handle if it has ben hear this long it will last a while longer.
bud shelton <>
greens fork in., wayne, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 10:42:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
i am a german.
I´m 24 years old and trying to get a good sharpshooter in the german SEK.
For this i need some help from you.

1.) Can anyone give me a URL where i can find some information about MOVING in the field?

2.) I wanna know all about "sniper-books" that are available at the moment.

3.) I wanna buy a Remington 700 or a HK PSG1. Can anyone help me?
Where can i purchase them and what about shipping and its costs?

I am sure that you´ll help me to fix my problems.
Please write back to my E-Mail

Lars Vorderbrück <>
Dortmund, NRW, Germany - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 11:00:42 (ZULU) (your host address:


>>"Anyone have any opinions about Remington's 40XB repeater compared to a standard 700 PSS? The one I am looking at is marked 7.62 NATO instead of 308 WIN, does anyone have any knowledge about the importance of that? Who makes the stock they put on these guns? If any or all of these are dumn questions, please let me know why..."<<

Whoa... Don't get me started on 40-XB/R's... you'll fog my glasses!!

OK, you got me started. There is only a slight cosmetic family relationship between the two... the 40-XB/R is F-I-N-E, fine!!

Photos of the M24 I built, around a 40-XB/R are on the way to you by e-mail, along with the group that was shot at 405 yards. The wood stocks are made by Remngton, the synthetic stocks are made by H-S Precision.

Gotta go make money... only 4 more months to 50 BMG time ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 11:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damn, there we have it. Another Kraut on the Roster !


E mail is on the way to you.

I presume you are not already a police officer, otherwise you would not be asking this question here. Get in touch with your lokal police in Dortmund and see if you qualify for the job as policeman. Dont mention that you want to be a "precision shooter". They will escort you to the door with some nice glossy police leaflets and that was it.

Were you already drafted to the Bundeswehr ?

A Rem 700 with lupitas and mounts will run you 5000,--DM min.

A H&K PSG1 is VERBOTEN for us civies.


torsten <>
germany - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 12:28:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Trigger50 wrote:

>Old SF guys, Rangers, and any other infantry type would tell you that you NEVER, EVER enter your own kill zone prior to putting on the ambush. Esentially, that is what a sniper attack is, an ambush. So the act of going into your target area to "grid it out" and get precise ranges to reference points violates a couple of operational principles. All of those priniciples are well proven over many years and wars.<

When preparing and conducting a retrograde it is common to mover over the same terrain you plan to shoot into later.

At the end of a movement it was SOP to "fish-hook" and overwatch your back trail.

In the defence it is important to actively patrol to your front.

I'm an old guy that falls into a couple of those catagories you mentioned and I can tell you this, "You never say never."

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 13:10:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi Guys, Had lots of intereted parties and a couple of suggestions that I go ahead and post the file. I had to clean it up alot and many photos, graphs, and drawings were removed to post it on this site. Let me know what you think.

Part I - Range Determination by Angular Relation (This is NOT theodolite range finding, but another method). This method involves using your day scope to range a target. Keep in mind this is not intended to work on people targets that don't ever stop moving around. It's simply more accurate than mil relation.


Angular relation is a method to measure the height of an object by using your optical sight or a theodolite. In principle, this is the same as MIL relation. The difference is that you manipulate a sight or a theodolite and pan your reticle from the bottom of the target to the top. However, it requires that the target be stationary in nature longer than the Mil Dot method. This is of great use against material targets and increases your range finding resolution. To use this method the sniper must bag his gun under the rear of the rifle and settle the gun well into the bag. The gun must be steady enough so that the sniper can manipulate the elevation knob without disturbing the lay of the gun. This method works better when using the M1A because of its ¼ minute of angle settings versus the full minute of angle settings on the M3A. Here are the steps:

1. Carefully bag the toe of the gun and lay the gun on the target. The reticle of the scope does not necessarily have to be dead center over the target. It can offset left or right as much as the operator wants.

2. Turn the elevation knob up or down so that the horizontal crosshair or any horizontal point of reference you wish is at the bottom of the target. Note the value of this setting on the elevation knob.

3. Turn the elevation knob up while looking through the scope at the target. When that horizontal point of reference reaches the top of the target, stop. As you turn, count the clicks that you move the knob.

4. If you were using a BDC scope with 1 MOA clicks, in the above example you would have a 13 Minute or click movement. If you are using a ¼ Minute scope, you will have moved the knob 53 clicks.

5. This method uses the same formula that you use when doing Mil Relation using the MIL dot reticle. You must convert your clicks or minutes of angle to MILS before you can run the formula. Use the following formula:

Minutes of Angle divide by 3.375 = MILS

6. Execute the MIL relation formula using the data obtained from this method:

13.25 converted to MILS = 3.92593 MILS

7 meters X 1000 = 7000

3.292593 MILS

=1783 Meters to Target

Now we will study what the effect of a deflection calculation error on the range to the target. This is bounced off of the Danger Space table for that cartridge.


Effect of a 1 Minute of Angle Error / Correct Measurement = 13.00 MOA or 3.85185 MILS

Danger Space for a 7 meter target @ 1800 meters = 111 meters

> 13 MOA deflection = 1817.30769 Meters REAL WORLD RANGE
> 12 MOA deflection = 1968.75000 Meters / Outside Danger Space Specification
> 14 MOA deflection = 1687.50000 Meters / Outside Danger Space Specification

Effect of a ½ Minute of Angle Error

> 13 MOA deflection = 1817.30769 Meters REAL WORLD RANGE
> 12.5 MOA deflection = 1890.00000 Meters / Within Danger Space Specification
> 13.5 MOA deflection = 1750.00000 Meters / Within Danger Space

This method may seem like a rehash of the Mil relation method that I wasn’t too fond of earlier. I don’t have a problem with Mil relation. I only have a problem in applying that against human targets that don’t seem to sit still too long. Using that method against stationary targets is great as long as the shooters are aware of the problems caused by miss-estimating the height of the target and missing the MIL error on the scope. Using the Angular Relation method allows the shooter to use the finer angle resolving power of the M3A or ¼ MOA capable scopes. These are powerful instruments. The finer resolution of high power optics like US Optics allows the shooter to see edges of targets that don’t have good contrast on them. These are conditions that other optics cannot live up to, and those low contrast edges become impossible to define.

Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 14:22:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Part II - Triangulation Rangefinding (Still not the theodolite method).


Many times a sniper team may arrive in an operational where there the target has not yet arrived. Indeed, in many special operations situations, unless the target is material and anchored to the earth, the team will try to arrive long before the target arrives. This allows them to set up the shot on their terms instead of the enemy’s terms. They can set up the shot along the dominant wind line and thereby reduce their crosswind problems. They can also set up the shot so that the sun is behind the sniper team and reduce the target’s security apparatus ability to identify and located the sniper team.

Triangulation is a method that uses a baseline at the sniper’s position and a compass or other angle measuring device (M-2 compasses work better than the military lensetic). This method works when using two operators the best, although one man can do the job. Triangulation measures the angular difference from a line that goes from the gun to the target and a line from a point 90 degrees to that line but between 20 and 50 meters to the right or left of that gun. To do this formula you need a scientific calculator. As mentioned way back in Chapter 3, I recommend the Hewlett Packard HP20S. The appendix to this book contains a program sequence for programming this formula into a HP20S. The key that is important here is the SIN key. This is an extremely accurate method of range determination. Its main use prior to target arrival is setting up a highly detailed range card. Here is the formula:

Range to Target (Line AC) = (AB) X SIN of angle B divide by SIN of angle C

AC = is the gun to target line.
AB = is the baseline cord length or in the later application, the size of the target.

The baseline cord length has an important impact on the accuracy of the range determination. The larger the baseline when using a compass, the more the accurate the ranging. A GPS makes this process easier. The following cord lengths are based on experience. The operators take a visual range estimation and base their cord length on this estimation.

§ 0-400 Meters = 10-meter cord length

§ 600-700 Meters = 30-meter cord length
§ 700-Infinity = 40 or more cord length

A HTI sniper team moves into an area looking for an FFP. They will return to their objective rally point after they obtain some visual Target Reference Points (TRP). Before team lies a major road intersection but there is nothing in that intersection that gives them anything to determine a range on using Angular Deflection or Mil Relation. The team leader directs one of the team members to pull out a roll of “low stretch” cord that is knotted every 5 meters. They are going to execute a triangulation to the intersection that they can build a range card on. At this point they are only gathering minimal data so they can complete their calculations later. The members take a look at the situation and visually estimate a range (and some map use) of about 1400 meters to the intersection.

1. One of the shooters pulls out a compass and a stake that he prepared earlier at the ORP. He drives this stick in the ground at the proposed gun position. He lays his compass on the top of the stake and notes the azimuth to the target. In this case he gets an azimuth of 320 deg. Magnetic (5688 MILS). This establishes line AC.

2. He needs to establish the line AB. By adding 90 degrees to the compass setting he gets a desired azimuth of 50 degrees M. (888 MILS) azimuth. He turns the compass until 50 degrees falls under the indica5688line on the compass face. This establishes the AB line angle.

3. Another team member starts at the gun position and runs the cord along this 50 deg. Line. He stays online by directions given him by the compass man. He has determined that due to the terrain and situation a 50-meter baseline cord be used. As he reaches the 50-meter measurement, the compass man gives him a final correction to keep him online as he drives a stake at the Point B of the AB cord.

4. The compass man then moves to Point B where he lays his compass on the stake. He takes an azimuth to the intersection and notes this azimuth. A better method is for one man to line up the compass and a second man takes the reading off the compass face. He gets a direct magnetic reading of 318 deg. Magnetic (5653 MILS). This is a deflection of 2 degrees.

NOTE: A half-degree error in this method results in a difference of 130 meters in the range to the target. An M-2 compass works better because of it’s finer resolving ability using MILS over Degrees.

5. The recon team moves back to the ORP to finish their calculations and finalize their plans. In the ORP, the compass man begins his calculations to get the range to the target. Here are the specifics:

§ AB = 50 Meters
§ Angle B = 88 Degrees / SIN = .99939
§ Angle C = 2 Degrees / SIN = .03490

AC = (50) X SIN B (.99939)divide by SIN C (.03490)

AC = 49.96950 divide by .03490

AC = 1431.790 Meters from Gun to Intersection / Initial Elevation Setting of 71.00 MOA for Mark 211, Mod-0 under Standard Atmospheric Conditions.

6. At the team leaders convenience the shooters can place preliminary elevation data on their gun as the team leader gathers MET and ENV conditions in the target area. Operators can be further dispatched to take wind readings in the area. It is NOT recommended that operators go down into the target area and disturb that area. You never know what security apparatus may move into the area before your shot.

Some tricks can aid the compass man in lying in the AC and AB lines. With the naked compass, it is tough to get an accurate reading. Here are some tricks of the trade.

Use a Silva compass mounted to a small wooden or plastic board. The compass is mounted exactly parallel along a centerline in the board. A low power optical sight such as the ACOG from an M-4 system is mounted in front of the board and acts as a precision aiming system for the compass. Have the two about a foot apart so you don’t get magnetic influence from metal in the ACOG scope. This method gets you a very tight on the azimuth to the target. The wire in the lensatic compass sight is thick enough to cover a target at 1500 meters.

Binoculars with a compass built into them. Steiner and Leica both offer binoculars with compasses built into them. This also gives you a magnified image of the target as well as the crosshair in the binocular to use as an aiming point at the target area.

As stated before, the longer the AB cord, the more accurate the reading will be. It is possible to use a GPS to get an exact fix of your location at the gun. The compass man then takes a reading to the target. While this is going on, another recon element moves to a terrain feature that on the map is 300 meters to the right. When they are in position on the hill, one of them displays a small orange panel that the compass man uses to get them on the required 90-degree angle to the gun-target line. The second team takes a GPS fix and they take a compass reading to the target. By subtracting the coordinates from each other, they can determine exactly how many meters the two teams are apart. This is the AB line. The Angle C will be much larger thereby making the range that much more accurate.

§ AB = 331 Meters after GPS fix
§ Angle B = 77 Degrees M / .97437
§ Angle C = 13 Degrees M / .22495

AC = (331) X .97437 divide by .22495

AC = 1433.725 Meters

As with many of the techniques in this book, these methods are intended to be a jog of the brain as much as locked in cement. Other operators may and will come up with different methods for obtaining an accurate AB cord length. This method requires a good deal of practice in order to prove it’s worth and for the operators to have faith in its ability. Precise use of the compass and other supporting equipment is of utmost importance. When using the GPS use the averaging mode on it to get a super-accurate fix on the location of the gun and the Point B.

To gain an even more accurate range to the target, use multiple methods and repeat your measurements several times. If they vary a little from measurement to measurement, average the measurements out. Of course, another method, but a dangerous one, is to walk out to the target area with the GPS and get a super-accurate averaged fix on the target location. Subtract the two coordinates and you have your range to target.

Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 14:26:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Finally, theodolite range finding...


At Fort Bragg not long after I started finishing the first sets of .50 caliber tables I very interested in solving another problem that we were having. That is solving the range determination problem to a super fine level. Long before I was in the Special Forces, I was in the conventional army as a combat engineer. A few times, we were on road construction projects in some of the major training areas in Europe. I remembered that there were a couple of engineering officers that had used a mechanical theodolite to lay out the road sites. One of these officers explained a little about the capabilities of these instruments and how they resolve and measure angles to a very fine degree, much better than standard engineer transits.

Triangulation was taught at SOTIC when I first attended the school. Somewhere while investigating range determining possibilities and trying to refine the methods of triangulation, I remembered theodolites and their capability. I called one of the surveying companies in Fayetteville, North Carolina and arranged some time with the owner. A trip downtown and some time with the owner of the store confirmed that I could indeed measure the size of an object in seconds or arc or minutes of angle. Remember earlier in the chapter when we covered Mil Relation and how we discussed the MIL dot reticle? There is a potential for huge error at long ranges because of the low power of the telescopic sights and the strong possibility of the operator messing up the MIL value for a target.

We then talked about using the telescopic sight elevation drum for determining the angular deflection of a target. The single minute of angle or the ¼ MOA capability of measuring the target height made for a huge jump in the precision capability in finding the range to the target. Triangulation using a compass and a baseline expanded our range finding capability but this method when using a magnetic compass has the potential for huge error when using a small baseline. The large baseline option meant a lot of moving around for a sniper team, which isn’t good site security for the team.

Now we are going into the world of theodolite range finding. This is by far the most state of the art, precise method of determining a range to a target. A theodolite is a precision instrument that costs about $4000.00. That may sound like a lot of money, but consider what the theodolite can do. Here are some of the advantages of the theodolite.

1. Replaces two instruments with one: the spotting scope and a laser range finder or other range finding gear.

2. Ultra high resolution and high power (24X typically) optics make for an excellent spotting scope as well as a range finding instrument.

3. Cost effective. In replacing two instruments with one, you save maintenance money and the theodolite is cheaper than military grade laser range finders.

4. System is totally passive. There is no laser to shoot downrange and risk detection.

5. Night vision systems can be easily adapted to the objective lens assembly or the ocular lens assemblies. A laser pointer can be slaved to the theodolite for designating targets at night when necessary.

6. System can be used on a target that is stationary or an object close to the target that is very small. This depends on the resolving power of the theodolite. A common system available in the military or outside is a 6” theodolite (6” explained in a little bit).

7. This method can also be used like the baseline and compass method by moving the theodolite from Point A to Point B and then measuring Angle B instead of Angle C.

We have used all kinds of units of measure for anything for windage holdoffs, mil relation, and holdovers high and low (MILS). We have also used another unit of measure that is used for elevation and windage (Minutes of Angle). Theodolite range finding uses another unit of measure that is finer than MILS or Minutes. These are seconds of arc. A second of arc is 1/60th of a Minute of Angle. That is a might small angle. Theodolites can read angles to 1” of arc. The more common ones read to 6” of arch. The following units of measure sub-tend as follows:

1 MIL @ 1000 meters = 39.37 Inches
1 Minute of Angle @ 1000 meters = 11.38 Inches
1 Second of Arc @ 1000 meters = .18967 inches

The first theodolite that I was able to obtain for testing I actually borrowed from the Civil Engineering section responsible for property maintenance at Fort Bragg, NC. Thanks guys for the use of that instrument. When I took that instrument back to my place of work it immediately took it out and mounted it on the tripod. I had not had any formal training in the use of this instrument. After playing with the knobs and reading the book that came with it, I had a rough idea how it worked. I knew that the theory was sound because of MIL relation theory and using the Leupold & Stevens M1A scopes to measure the height of a target in ¼ MOA clicks.

The first that I did was work out some of the problems on paper and determine the degree of accuracy that I could expect using this method. The theodolite that I borrowed was a Wild T-6 with a 6” resolution capability (meaning it could give you a reading from the optical micrometer in 6” increments). Here are some of the results of that initial paper testing.


§ 1 MIL @ 10,000 meters = 393 inches
§ 1 Minute of Angle @ 10,000 meters = 113.8 inches
§ 1 Second of Arc @ 10,000 meters = 1.883 inches
§ 6 Seconds of Arc @ 10,000 meters = 11.30 inches


The standard military compass can with great skill and practice (on a sighting board) can resolve to .5 degrees with visual interpolation (usually a second person taking the reading).

The M2 compass that reads in MILS, can be resolve a 2 MILS reading off the compass.

The average theodolite can resolve to 6” of arc. Models are available that resolve typically to 1 Minute of angle, 20, 10, 6 and 1 second of arc.


1. Using a compass: True range = 1572 meters. Baseline = 40 meters. A half degree error in compass reading may result in a – or + 427 meter error.

2. Using an M2 compass. True range = 1629 meters. Baseline = 40 meters. A 2 MIL error in compass reading may result in a – or + 120 meter error.

3. Using a 6” Theodolite. True range = 1712 meters. Baseline = 40 meters. An error of 18 seconds of arc (3 times the capability of the sight) = 6.4 meter error.

Each theodolite operates the same way. To go into the operation of each knob on each type of theodolite would add many more pages to this book. A major advantage of the theodolite is that it reads both horizontal and vertical angles. This not only gives the operator the vertical or horizontal angular deflection of the target, but it also gives the up or down angle to that target. These instruments have two types of scales that you take your reading from. The first is a vernier scale. These take some tricky reading experience from the operator. If you have ever worked the scale on the iron sight of the M-24, this is that system on steroids. In fact, it’s probably not workable under field sniper conditions.

The best type of scale is the optical scale. There is another small scope next to the main tube. Inside of this scope is nothing but a scale reading. There are many types of scale readings. Some of these are listed below:

There are two methods for determining the range using a theodolite.

METHOD #1. Determining range to a target not at the target site. This method is used when the target is expected in the target area, but has not yet arrived. With this method, the operator must move the theodolite. This lowers the precision of the range determination. Using a large baseline when possible makes up for a lot of this error. Baseline recommendation is 30 meters.

METHOD #2. Determining the range to a target using the size of the target as a representative baseline. This method takes advantage of the theodolites resolving power. Even though you are using a smaller target (3 to 15 meters tall or wide) as compared to method #1, which uses a wide baseline of 30 meters or more.

PROCEDURE FOR METHOD #1 / Angle B Measurement

1. The HTI team approaches the final firing point and the team leader designates the point (Point A) for the 1st position of the theodolite. The operator sets in the theodolite and levels the system. The optical micrometer was previously zeroed out at the ORP. You cannot zero out the vertical scale. He immediately releases the theodolite head and slews the scope to the designated target point (Angle AC). The micrometer will read 0 Deg. 0’ 0”. At this point, the operator can take the vertical angle reading to the target if there is any up or down angle. He writes this down in his notes. The observer will need this data for his Slant Angle corrections. He will attach a small fishing weight plumb under the instrument and sink a nail head in the ground.

2. The operator engages the optical micrometer and slews the head right or left until he gets a deflection of 90 Deg. 0’ 0”. He is now looking at Point B and this establishes the azimuth for the baseline (Angle AB). Another operator will have measured the pre-determined baseline length. Forrome purposes of this example, this is 30 meters. The operator has a small fiberglass wand (tape two vertical levels to this wand to insure it is straight up an down) in his hand that is used to mark the place where he will set a nail in the ground to designate Point B.

3. The theodolite operator will slew the head back to Point C (the target spot) and he should get a reading of 0 Deg. 0’ 0” on the scale. He will then slew the head again to Point B and this checks his position, his measurement and the precision of Point B. At this point, the triangle is laid in. Points A, B and C is established with a baseline of 30 meters and a 90-degree angle at Point A to B and C.

4. The theodolite operator will lock the head of the instrument, pick up and move his instrument to Point B. The man with the wand will return to Point A and place his wand vertically on the nail at Point A. The theodolite operator will set his instrument up over the nail using the optical sight on the theodolite for plumbing the sight in. This is also done at the same time the sight is leveled. This takes a bit of practice but like surveying students can attest, with practice it can be done in less than a minute.

5. The system leveled and plumbed directly over Point B. The operator with the micrometer locked, slews the theodolite around until he is directly lined up with the center of the wand. Ensuring that the wand is vertical, he makes final adjustments to the location of the theodolite. At this point, the scale is at 0 Deg. 0’ 0”. He is pointing his sight directly at Point A.

6. He engages the optical micrometer and unlocks the head. He slews the theodolite over and up or down so that the reticle is aiming directly at Point C (target). He looks into the optical micrometer and takes a reading. His direct reading is 88 Deg 38’ 0”. This is written down in his notes. He will have to subtract this from 90 degrees later.

7. As a final check he will slew his theodolite back to the Point A. He should get a 0 Deg. 0’ 0” reading. This tells him that the original Point A is good and his taking of the reading was solid. There is another way of making your reading more precise.

8. While all of this angle measurement is going on, another member of the team is taking initial meteorological and environmental conditions. He takes a barometric pressure reading and air temperature reading. This is especially important when the FFP is located away from the ORP by a good distance.

9. Repeating Measurement. After the operator has slewed his sight from Point A to Point C and recorded that deflection (he converts this reading to a decimal figure using the calculator 88 Deg. 38’ 0” becomes 88.63333 Degrees), he disengages his optical micrometer. This allows him to move the sight head without changing his scale reading. He slews the head back to Point A again. He re-engages the micrometer and slews his sight over to Point C. This takes another measurement that is added to the first one.

You must remember that when adding angles, they must be converted to decimal format. This is easy on a scientific calculator. This repeating measurement can be taken as many times as necessary. The acid test is the averaging. The scale in the sight should look like this now. This is on the second repeating measurement. The scale shows 177 Deg. 14’ 40” for two measurements.

Your 3 readings are

88 Deg 38’ 0” (88.63333)
88 Deg 38’ 0” (88.63333)
88 Deg 36’ 0” (88.60000)

Total of all readings = 265.86666 or 265 Deg 52’ 0”.

Divide the decimal figure by 3 for an Angle B average = 88.62222 or 88 Deg. 37’ 20” average.

Subtract 88.62222 from 90 for the Angle C measurement = 1.37778 or 1 Deg. 22’ 40”.

10. Once the team has determined that the measurements are true and acceptable and they breakdown the equipment leaving only a nail at Point A for a gun position reference. They have gathered their Angle B and Angle C measurements and have their slant angle to the target. They are now ready to begin their calculations to determine the range to the target.

This is a depiction of the intersection through the lens of the theodolite. The optical micrometer is depicted to the right of the road main observation sight. These sights usually are in the 30X range. Because of the high quality of the lenses they make excellent spotting scopes and are quite capable of reading long-range trace. One of their shortfalls is light transmission under conditions of limited visibility.


In this situation, the team is going to use the target itself as a representation of the baseline. Instead of the baseline being at the gun’s position (30 meters), the size of the target (vertical of horizontal) becomes the baseline for the triangulation formula. This is the preferred method for a couple of reasons.

Since the target is in place, you know exactly where it is positioned and won’t have to possibly make minor range adjustments. In Method #1, you may have to adjust your range based on the actual location of the target in relation to where you shot the range to (i.e. the road intersection).

Much less possible error when taking the angle deflections because the theodolite will remain in one place (Point A) and not have to be moved to Point B to take a deflection for Angle B.

Less movement in the FFP area. This is a tactical problem associated with moving in your FFP enough to possibly compromise the team to security patrols that may be operating in the area. The team finishes it’s angle determinations and returns to the objective rally point and in the meantime an enemy patrol finds evidence of the teams activities at that FFP.

You will get a more accurate angle to target deflection for determining the uphill or downhill slant range to target. Another critical factor when using an angular deflection method is that you are looking uphill or downhill at a target, that angle to the target affects the apparent height of the target. You must correct for this angle to target. More about that later.

In this situation, the operator is looking over his #1 gun. He has acquired the left side of the missile launcher and his micrometer is set at 0 Deg. 0’ 0”. The vertical micrometer which you cannot set to zero is showing a down angle of 8 Deg. 0’ 0”. 8 degrees is the angle from the gun to the target. The Cosine of 8 degrees is .99027. The operator will multiply his true range in meters against this value to obtain the slant range correction. The procedures for a horizontal angle deflection are as follows:

1. The team performs an area reconnaissance for the final firing position. When the FFP is located the team leader designates the position for this base gun and the theodolite is set up in this position. The instrument is leveled. For this mode, there is no need to plumb and mark the site.

2. The operator slews the theodolite head to zero the optical micrometer. He then disengages the micrometer so that he can move the head without changing the micrometer setting. The Reticle is aligned with the left or right extreme measurable side of the object to be ranged. (Example P. 37). Check to insure that the micrometer is at 0 Deg. 0’ 0”. The operator engages the optical micrometer and slews the theodolite head to the opposite side of the target, inducing a change in the reading on the optical micrometer. In the case here, the deflection is 0 Deg. 20’ 0”. The vertical deflection is 8 Deg. 0’ 0”.

3. At this point, the team has all the data that they need to determine the range to the target. They have the size of the target in meters, the horizontal angle deflection of that target, and they have the angle from gun to the target.

4. Repeating Measurement. A repeating measurement is recommended whenever the tactical conditions permit. A repeating measurement works as follows.

After the first measurement, the operator disengages the micrometer and slews the head back to the left side of the target.

He re-engages the micrometer and dials the reticle back to the opposite side of the target for a second measurement. The 20’ reading should continue to escalate to a 40’ or so reading. It may vary 15 or 30 seconds. The micrometer is again disengaged and the head is panned back to the left side of the target.

The third measurement. The operator re-engages the micrometer and for the third time, he pans the reticle across the target. This repeating measurement is much more accurate than a single reading. Do this for, as many times, as you have time for or until you are satisfied with your measurements.

Remember to convert your angle findings to decimal format before adding them together. YOU MUST DO THIS TO OBTAIN SIN AND COSINE FUNCTIONS ALSO.

Your three “ANGLE C” readings are:

0 Deg 20’ 0” (0.33333) Range = 1375 Meters
0 Deg 20’ 30” (.34167) Range = 1342 Meters
0 Deg 21’ 0” (.35000) Range = 1310 Meters

Total of all readings = 1.02500 or 1 Deg. 1’ 30” for Angle C.

Divide the decimal figure by 3 for an Angle C average = .34167 or 0 Deg. 20’ 30” average.

The Angle C method is much more desirable than Angle B method. There is much less movement around the final firing position and that means less exposure time to a potential enemy position. The team can move forward to obtain the Angle C data with the theodolite and then return to the objective rally point to calculate their data. Another team member should be taking the meteorological conditions while the range finding operations are being conducted.

With practice an operator can take an Angle C reading in about 2 or 3 minutes. The major factor in this time is the time it takes to level the theodolite. It is critical that the theodolite be leveled before taking the measurement. This method works very well for a target that is wide. Trucks, missiles laying in the travel mode, radar vans, boats, aircraft and railcars all work very well for determining Angle C on the horizontal plane. We have covered the two major methods for determining Angular Deflection using a theodolite. Both of these techniques are extremely accurate, but one is much more difficult than the other method.

Determining Angle C on the vertical plane is as fast as doing the horizontal method but it requires a little more calculator use. This is because you cannot zero the vertical angle reading scale on a theodolite. It will always read something between zero and 90 degrees.


Using the vertical plane (measuring the height of the target instead of the width) is in some ways desirable to the horizontal plane. Certain types of targets are much taller than they are long, especially missiles in the launch mode. Certain vans that have extendable mast antennas are much taller when that mast is extended than when it is lowered. In may cases such as in the picture below, you can use a full ground to top of the radar measurement because the ground line is clearly defined. This will depend on the operator’s ability to see clearly defined edges.

Another factor for taking a vertical measurement is the angle of the vehicle to the theodolite position. In the example to the left, the vehicle is on about a 40-degree angle to the gun position. The radar is also on that 40-degree angle. In this case, although the radar is tipped back a little, you will get a more accurate angle deflection taking a vertical measurement that you will with the horizontal measurement. You also save time using the vertical measurement because you do not have to zero out the optical micrometer before taking your 1st deflection. Repeating measurements create a bit of a problem though. Here are the steps for a vertical measurement:

1. After the team leader has fixed the location for his FFP, the theodolite operator locates his theodolite over the base gun position. He levels his instrument and is ready to take the first reading. There is no need to zero the horizontal optical micrometer and you cannot lock or unlock the vertical micrometer. That reading will constantly change as long as your are moving the sight up and down. As with the horizontal method, there is no need to plumb and mark the sight other than to mark it for the base gun’s position.

2. The operator places the reticle at the bottom of the target. This is the point on the target where he knows he has a solid real world measurement for height in meters and he can clearly see that point through his scope. He notes the reading for the vertical deflection. In this case, the reading is 8 Deg. 15’ 00”. Target height is 11 meters.

3. He will now slew the sight reticle to a point halfway up from the bottom. This is to take the slant angle setting to the target. This will also give him the angle that he needs to correct the target height’s visual appearance to him based on the downhill angle to that target. The more severe this angle, the smaller the target is going to appear to him and this must be corrected for. Mid-point reading is 8 Deg. 27’ 50”. In this case, a 11-meter high target will appear to the eye to be 10.88 meters high for measurement. You can’t tell this, but you know that target is 11 meters high. You can only slew the sight from the bottom to the top of the target based on what you can see of that target. There is no way to mentally project where the top of that target would be if the angle to the target were 0 degrees. So how do you correct for this misrepresented angle? You must take your 3rd and final reading to correct for this optical error.

4. The sight is now elevated to the top of the target and a reading is taken. The reading is 8 Deg. 40’ 00”. To obtain the deflection, subtract the bottom angle reading from the top angle reading. Remember to convert your angles to decimal format to subtract.

8 Deg. 40’ 0” (8.66667 Deg) – 8 Deg. 15’ 0” (8.25000) = .41667 or 0 Deg. 25’ 00”

Angle C (Vertical) = 0 Deg. 25’ 00”

5. Remember we said that because there is an 8+ degree angle to the target, that target is going to appear smaller to the operator. He can only take a reading on what he sees and cannot project where the top of the target would be on a horizontal plane (0 degree angle to target). Now is the time to correct the vertical deflection for that optical error. Here are the steps to correct the vertical deflection.

Total height of target in Deg Min Sec = 0 Deg 25’ 0”
Angle to Target = 8 Deg. 27’ 5”

§ Enter > .25
§ Divide by
§ Enter > 8.275
§ COS key
§ =
§ .25263 corrected Angle C (this is not in decimal format, don’t change it)

6. Now, how much does this minor correction affect the range to the target and the subsequent MOA elevation setting? Let’s find out.

Using an uncorrected 0 deg. 25’ 0” / Range = 1513 meters / 79.75 MOA

Using the corrected angle of 25’ 26.3” / Range = 1487 meters / 77 MOA

A difference of 2.75 minutes of angle at 1500 meters = a difference in the strike of the round by 47” on the target. Not too bad, but can you afford it? We haven’t even corrected this data for slant angle to the target and the other MET and ENV conditions. The errors add up fast.

NOTE: Whenever you are reading the angle to target and you are shooting uphill or downhill, the target is going to appear farther away from you. When you correct the deflection for this angle, your range number should be smaller. If the range number is larger, you multiplied instead of divided. Remember you still must correct the True Range to target for the slant angle.

The two effects are not the same. The first, the optical error due to angle corrects the apparent size of the target for range. The second, correcting the True Range for the Slant Angle, corrects the range for the effects of gravity.

This all sounds rather long and drawn out. The first couple of times it is. As you practice the use of the calculator and learn how to use the different memory capabilities, you will speed up. In the appendix for calculator operations, there are programs that are written for the Hewlett-Packard HP20S scientific calculator. This is the only (as far as I know) calculator that is easily programmed using keystroke programming. It’s the best.

Now that this is posted, i have noticed that I posted them in reverse order. This part can be read last. The two posts below should be read first. Whew, glad i didn't have to retype all of this stuff.

Take care, please fire away with comments.

Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 14:33:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

If your going to get into accuracy reloading you can get all the equiptment you need from Sinclair or any place that caters to BR shooters. As far as reloading books they are all mostly standard with some giving what they call accuracy loads. Your gun and mine may not shoot the accuracy load the same, mine may like something better so you have to experment to find out what yours likes the best. The best thing to do is buy top notch loading equiptment and components to start off with. If you stick with Redding BR dies you can't go wrong.

I agree with Bill on the 25-06 its a great flat shooting long range rifle for HUNTING. The thing that keeps it out of the tactical world is like Bill said, poor barrel life. I have shot the barrels out of two of them and it doesn't take long. The other big draw back is a good quality bullet for the 25s, I understand that sierra is now making a MK so maybe that would change, but barrel life is still a consideration.

Welcome back, I love reading your posts, your like 'lito, sometimes I wonder, "Where the hell do they come up with this stuff"(HA). You had better be careful with him and his 50 you may just create a monster you can't control!!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 14:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a question for all of you. I bought a kowa 611 and i was wondering if anywhere sells an aftermarket waterproof thing to screw over the 25x long eye relief eyepiece.
I've seen postings of people suggesting it but i've only seen it for sale for the tsn-821 and the tsn-1. like this one<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, my little brother makes the lens covers for both the TSN-1 and the 821 for Otto Weber. You can get them from him(Otto). Good stuff. 6061-T6 aluminum tube. Hard coat anodized(normally black but I guess we could make them whatever you want) and synthetic quartz watch crystals for lens. Proper thread pitch(the TSN uses some weird Jap thread) The lens are epoxied in with some sort of wonder glue. He had a guy send one back after he dropped his scope on the concrete and we had to break the lens out in order to replace it(the lens was cracked) I guess if there is enough demand my little brother could make some for the 611. There's really no point for less then about 50-100 units. Talk to Otto, if he thinks it's worth it, I guess we could do it. Email me, if you're interested. Probably going to run about $35, have to look into it further for a hard number. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 15:44:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm on the short list for a McMillan stock. I need a comparison of the A-3 vs. the A-4. Anyone have any experience with both? I'm leaning toward the A-3 with adjustable cheek and butt. I have a real problem with paralax. I have worked with my current stock to no avail. Can anyone help? cbmarshal
Carl Marshall <>
Sabillasville, MD, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 16:28:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thank you Bill and Pat for the input on the .25-06! :)

Now that leads me to followup questions.
1) I was concerned about barrel life, hence I load down a ways from max. Will this help or am I hurting myself in other ways beside velocity/trajectory?

2) What life expectancy should I expect out of a barrel? Especially since Pat said he has gone through two already! :o

Thanks for the input, much appreciated!

Plainsman <>
ND, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 16:50:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

A chronograph is a must if you are serious about hand loading. Not only will it give you the consistency of your loads, it will show you the difference there is between different lots of the same powder. This is much more noticeable in smaller cases. One example, a load of 43.0 grains of IMR 4350 is very accurate in my .243 Winchester with a velocity of about 2950 fps (10 feet to first skyscreen). By changing lots of IMR 4350 that velocity will range from 2839 fps to 3025 fps with the same 43.0 grains. In my rifle 3025 fps will pierce primers when the temperature reaches about 90 degrees. When changing to a new lot of powder I adjust my load to give 2950 fps and all is well. In my 30-06 the difference in lot numbers are not nearly so drastic. When I bought my .308 Winchester I bought a keg of powder and I’m still on that keg, but I suspect I may find the same difference when changing lot numbers because the two cases are of similar size. I have found the same difference with other brands of powder in my .243 Winchester.
HDR <>
Bartlesville, OK, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 17:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey guys
I just pick up my new win 70hbv fluted yesterday. Stripped it down clean it all up mounted a scope on it and today look good togo start the break in. Question on the bedding to me it doesn't look very well and some of it flaked off and lots of air bubbles in it. I have to rebed it. Also order new action screws with the alen head so torquing will be a snap. I going to start out with the 150win factory loads on the break in than switch over to the match ammo and hand load. Does anyone no where to get a B@L tactical scope ? After looking at the new rifle .308 I'll have to take my other one apart again and look at the bedding its in .223 The crown job look real nice on the .308 and now have decided to recrown the .223 you can see small dimples on the crown where the rifling end. It shoot pretty good .5-.7min always Maybe it can do better. Well the sun is almost up time to pack up and go to the range
Jason out
Jason <>
Canada - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 17:09:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
I don't recall the number of rounds that it took to shoot out the first barrel, it was a crome moly Douglas. The second was a SS Lilja and it went to hell at around 1500 rounds. It would still shoot just under and inch but inside it looked like 40 miles of bad road. The smith would't even cut it off to rechamber it for me it was so bad. I always learn the hard way, heat is the killer of barrels and it does norounke long for a 25-06 to get hot. I shoot a lot so it never was babied and I am sure thats what destroyed the barrels. I "NOW" take a lot better care and "DON'T" get them hot like I used to. So you can teach and old dog new tricks(HA).

I think your hurting yourself and loosing the advantage of the flat shooting round if you back down on powder, besides whats a couple of grains one way or the other in the big picture. I shot mostly 100gr bullets in mine and was pushing them to 3150fps which is not considered a hot load in this gun. If you use if just to hunt with you will never probably wear it out but I used mine for long range target shooting and thats hard on barrels. This is why you can't beat the 308s you can abuse them and they just keep on shooting.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 17:19:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just got my custom rifle from Hammonds in Red Lion PA.and am ready to mount my scope. The base is an IBA mount and the scope is a leupold 3.5 X 10 LR M1. The base has a 20 moa tapper already so can I mount the scope with cross hairs centered and still reach 1000 yards or not? Thanks for the info.

J. Miller <>
Thomasville, Ga., USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 17:51:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Is it just me, or is polishing a bore with J.B.'s bore shine one hell of a lot of work? Maybe I'm making more out of it than I should. I've already used about 1/3 of that little jar and about 150 patches, and there are STILL some areas of the bore that won't clean up. Specifically, about an inch in from the crown (we're talking about a pistol barrel), and along the edges of four of the six lands. The rest of the bore shines like a freekin mirror, though.

At first, I thought the crap I was seeing was stubborn lead that wouldn't come out with a brass brush, which is why I started this little project, but I'm beginning to suspect that somehow something chipped the surface. Hard to tell if it's a raised or depressed surface without a bore scope.

Either way, my hands are getting tired (been doubling up the patches on the jag for a real tight fit).

God help me when it comes time do a rifle barrel.

Do I keep going until I run out of J.B.'s and patches? Or should I just accept the fact that every bore has flaws?
MikeL <>
Beer Capitol, WI, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 19:18:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a little question on windage calculation. I'm not too sure where to start on finding the wind drift for a bullet going through a little "maze" of wind channels. e.g. if the first 300 yards of a 600 yard range are along a woodline on the right, and the next 200 yards is open on both sides, and the last 100 yards is blocked on the left side. Since the windage values for the bullet follow a quadratic path, it doesn't make sense to "cut and paste" the wind drifts for each segment together without taking into consideration the decreasing speed of the bullet across each segment. How do you guys do this? Anything diff. from the calculus approach? The wind really killed my score in the last 600yd match, a much-needed wake up call for me. . .


d19 <>
DE, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 19:38:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Mark 4 M3 scope. The papaerwork inside the carton said the 308 cam was for 173 grain projectiles. Every other source for information on Mark 4 M3 scope cams say it is for 168 grain bullets. What gives? Is there a variety of cams out there? Thanks for the help. Mike.
Mike <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 19:46:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thats and interesting question. I have shot across areas like that or even worse, across big draws that go different direction across where your shooting. These will sometimes actually cancel out your wind. Try to think of wind like water and it will help you follow the flow. It would depend on the wind direction but I would assume that only a close to right angle wind is the one giving you problems and your probably over compensating for it, if I had to guess. I would walk the course your shooting with a wind flag or if you can put out wind flags and watch them to see how they respond to different winds. If this is not possible get out your log book and record wind direction, speed and conditions, your wind call, dial it and send it. Then go see where you hit and make your correcions from there. Then make your notes and keep them for the next time your come across those conditions. Thats why you need to shoot in all types of conditions and keep notes. As a rule of thumb when part of the course is blocked I will back off on my wind adjustments. I know this probably isn't exact enough for you but maybe one of the others can give you some better info on it. I just usually do my wind call from experience since I don't normally use wind flags. Hope this helps!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 20:21:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
Oh, man!!

I really missed it with "Mike from Austin,TX" I wish I was here for that.

You said it all Bobby W. !!! Drive on!

Terry - Don't worry. The twit is NOT from Austin. His ass is from L.A. Calif. Q-Net (his provider) has thier eye on him too.

I love technology.


Mark S.
Mark S. <>
Northern , MN, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 20:25:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Great site !
T. Shuey <>
Yorktown, Va, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 20:42:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
Have a correction to post. Mr. Jacob Bynum is NOT of Sniper Country origin. He is located at Sniper's Paradise. Typing too fast, and had a mental computer burp. My apologies to Mr. Bynum.
Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 20:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
I received the following email today. Some of the dates look like they are wrong, but the meaning is not lost........

Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century."

Unfortunately many have forgotten and still countless others have never
known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but
specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam.

Part of my conviction comes from personal exposure to those who suffered
her attentions. The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's
name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the former Commandant of
the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton."

Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in
clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace
Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at
Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away.

During the subsequent beating, He fell forward upon the camp Commandant's
feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered
from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the
Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton.

From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6
years in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action".
His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got
the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation"
visit. They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world
that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his
SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a
cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little
encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and
"Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?"

Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of
paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line
and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the
POWs, she turned to the officer in charge ...
and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the
subsequent beatings. Col.Carrigan was almost number four but he
survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day.

I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was
captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968,
and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement,
one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a black box" in Hanoi.

My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a femalemissionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam,
whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border. At one time, I was
weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane
Fonda's "war criminals."

When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp
communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane
Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment
we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported
by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and

Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with
outstretched arms with a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and
beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped. I had the opportunity to
meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her
if she would be willing to debate me on TV.
She did not answer me.

This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100
Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women"
should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood
of so many patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral
reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of

Please take the time to forward to as many people as you possibly can. It
will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that we will
never forget.

Charles (Skip) Klingman
Asst. Professor of Music
Southwestern Oklahoma State University
Weatherford, OK 73096
(580) 774-3219 FAX: (580) 774-3795

Mike <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 21:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

D19: The wind's effect is not quadratic, though a model of it will contain a quadratic element. I don't know what you can do with calculus. For first shot, use a set of linear aproximations, then weight them. For matches with sighters: Hold hard on A SINGLE POINT for five shots in ONE WIND CONDITION. Calculate Y-bar and X-bar distances from desired point of impact (the little x), then make sight adjustment. Shoot whole string in SAME WIND condition. Do not chase your last shot unless you truly know what you are doing. That's ruinous unless you can do autoregressive integrated moving averages in your head in twenty seconds or less. has a video on a simplified technique of doing that.

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 21:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well I have low budget....and have made my mind up to get a rem700pss, but I cant find where to buy one, I dont get to practice mush with my unit, 317th MP BN in tampa, fl, so I want to be able to practice at home...before i go to SRT and SRT2 sniper school...for MPs...So Urban sniper is in the future for me, Army Reserves, only way to be a sniper in the Reserves, 11B....but otherthen that i want to compete in long range, army, and hunting...But i dont want to hifi lusty rifle, i just want to practice plus my budget is low...(still a student geting BFA)......I cant find a dealer!!!??!!! Help!??!! if its in FL even better, but i really really really want one...
thx for all the help
Dunbar <>
tampa, FL, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 22:02:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
Need some help here.

Is there any distributor or FFL dealer n the US that has a TRG 42 .338 LM.
After posting a few messages, i was convinced of the fine performance of this new version of the TRG41. Although it seems this rifle is not available in the U.S. Any help would be appreciated. I know of a dealer in Finland that stocks them, but it's a pain to import. Stoeger imported these rifles into the country, but has none in stock and does not know expected time of restock.

If anyone has any info on availability in the US, let me know.


Fred <>
MIA, Florida, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 22:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

JB Paste = bad juju. Get yersef some Shooter's Choice Lead Remover. You keep running that JB and you aren't going to have any lands left in the tube.

Plainsman, REELDOC here LOL:
Come off some of that cash and git yersef a good 308 Rem 700. Save the 25 for yotes and deeries and set the 308 up for long range. By the way folks, Plainsman has a hell of a good survival site with NO political crap, just pure ole survival and shooting. Check it out at:

Thanks for the poop on the wind stuff. I think that I will set up suveyor's tape at all my targets when I get the range set up just so I can start getting my wind dope figured. I can then look around at the leaves, grass and other thingies and relate their movement to the tape movement.

Bolt <>
NC, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 22:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, Dude I have told you that it is better to bed the action but that it works well to just use torque when it comes to HS Stocks. You pick up a small amout of acc. with bedding even the HS Stocks.

Trigger 50/Dean, good to see you back on here. I got the new data book you sent me. You have really made some improvements. Guys you should get a set. Dean has been working overtime. First class job. I have been making my own for a long time and they are similar to your but yours are far better and heck I dont have to work up tables for ever rifle anymore. I am going to get ahold of Charles/JT and beg him to put up some contact info for Deans Data Books, on my website. I will not be getting any part of it or handling the sales but the data books are so good I will help him out. Now if I can get ahold of Charles, the guy lucked into a great new love (besides weapons) and is very busy these days. One thing Dean, one day you will have to teach me how to use a Theodolite. I tried to borrow one from a local crew and they thought I was one crazy cop.

Whats with the idiots getting on here and taking up space. Candidates for post teen abortion one and all.

On the MK4 M3 BDC Wheels they have many and if you have a 173grain wheel many guys will trade you for the 168. The 173 is hard to come by. If you want the other wheels just call up Leupold.

Gooch, how is the move coming of TRGT
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 23:23:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Good job on the surveying, Trigger50. I just wand to add a couple of notes:

1. Most theodolites have a different base from the standard spotting scope. Of course, at the price tag for a theodolite, a special tripod for it is also in order.

2. Some theodolites have the optical reading in a little scope off to the side i.e. you lock the head in position, read the vertical scale, then move your eye to the secondary optic and read teh horizontal scale. On others, both are visible from the main eyepiece. In my experience, the first is much more common.

3. When using the theodolite, make your readings from that location once, then flip the eyepiece over, rotate the head 180 degrees, and make another reading. This will compensate for any problem in the instrument, since most are not sniper tested, designed to be dropped out of planes, and none are designed to be Marine resistant. The second set of reading should be 180 degrees out - you'll know which.

(Math warning: Mathphobes should not read the next paragraph, or their heads will explode.

4. It is not necessary to use a baseline which is exactly 90 degrees from the firing point. In fact, any angle will work, AS LONG AS IT IS ACCURATELY MEASURED. Since the angles of a triangle always add up to 180 degrees (unless you are on a very small sphere relative to the size of the triangle), by measuring the angle A between the target and the other end of the baseline and angle B between the firing point and the baseline. Then

angle C = 180 - A - B and, following the rule of sines,

Distance AC = Distance AB / (SIN C) * (SIN B)

This also works with the non-theodolite techniques.
I can post an analysis of the errors involved tommorow, or if someone has them handy, they can do it.

(Who has spent many hours surveying, and one summer on a surveying crew)
Karl <>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, December 06, 2000 at 23:38:57 (ZULU) (your host address: