This one is so close that I get a bit paranoid of the final tallies. My disgustingly inbred statewide neighbors have shown their voting preferences to be pathetic at best carrying GORE!.
Too much mindless teevee, and junkfood, and no where near enough REAL WORLD edumacation.
 

Bruce,
I'm with ya man and think meybee the missus and I were the only Republican votes in the county. The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire revisted here in the USA...........
 
 
 

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Toatally disgusted in BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 11:12:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.169)

THANK GOD FOR RALPH NADER!!! I never thought I'd say that, but if it weren't for him, it would have been Gore hours ago... we finely get our revenge for the Perot vote...

They say it may be days before we know who is the next president... :((

Is it OK to drink at 6:00 AM??

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lord... if you let me down, I'll never eat spinache again! in the confused, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 11:12:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.29)

Have a nice day and is it too early for a Bravo Brew? Has to be 12:00 somewhere!

Bolt, dead tired and out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 11:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.139)

When I voted yesterday, I punched tiny holes in an IBM punch card. You young guys have probably seen punch cards in a museum! Fingers crossed in Florida.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 12:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.205.230)

Live and learn.

Bravo: Pablito has a better chance at becoming Miss America than Gore had of taking Utah, so you did fine by strengthening the Libertarians. I like them. Sorry if I got a little excited.
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 13:08:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.86)

Damn, what and election this is. I finally fell asleep trying to figure out who was going to carry Florida. I thought Bush had it then when I woke up Gore was in it again!!! If you went by the map, mostly covered in red, you would swear to god that Bush had won it. Its real easy to see where the liberals call home!!! You guys can keep them out there on the coasts we don't want them here in the midwest!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 14:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

There are basically two types of g-g-g-(wish it had a different name)goretex, two layer and three layer. It refers to how many are actually attached to the goretex itself. Stangely, the 2 layer has the seperately hanging inner layer, while 3 layer appears to be one thick layer. The old style military is two layer, and a three layer version is now available.

2 layer breathes better, and is a little quieter. 3 layer is stiffer, louder, but dries much faster if you over heat or get the inside wet.

I do not recommend that you buy used military goretex. In earlier versions, not all the seams were sealed, so they would leak in some spots. The 2 layer military has a "hydrophilic" or water loving liner, which is what you are referring to. The idea was that it would wick sweat away from the wearer. Nice idea, but it would indeed wick could water into the jacket if any of it was exposed. Usually this happened when the hood was down, when precipitation was light enough that you didn't want the hood up just yet. You can get around this by folding or rolling the hood down inside the jacket. You also have to take care when you raise your arms, so that water doesn't run inside the sleeves. It also can happen at the waist area, as you mentioned, while lying in the prone position. It happened to me about two weeks ago while using mine for LE work. Luckily it was still pretty warm out, and the job only lasted a few hours.

All my personally bought stuff is three layer gore tex now.

This is getting longer than intended, if I can help any more, just email me.

Everyone is invited to check out the association- click my name or marinescoutsniper.com
Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 14:34:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.156)

It still floors me that WE (FLorida) did not carry Gee Dubbya by a landslide! It is all the freakin' welfare pukes and old people on Govenment Dole ( Socialist Security) that are afraid they will lose their "entitlements".

My Parents are just getting ready to retire and they made noises like they were afraid to vote for Bush...I told 'em God would burn their house down and I'd be holdin' the torch!

I'm monitoring the liberal socialist media as we speak, and they are just making me wanna blow CHUNKS!
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 16:04:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.58)

Waiting for those absentee ballots to come back in.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 16:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.43.104)

May we have a moment of silence to mourn the death of hope for New Yorkers who want to keep the few rights we have to our guns? Hillary the wife of the criminal and Lame Ass OOPS! I mean lame duck president has won a resounding victory.

Anybody now of a Fire department looking for a 12 year veteran of Fire and EMS in the streets? I hate to think of what is in store for us now.

Hopefully the country at large will suffer a lesser fate.

Perhaps it is time to fall back to my ORP and find a plan B.

How much is cosmoline anyway?

Play Hard!
Mars

Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
Democratic prison cell block #1 (oneonta), Ny. Where Hillary and Chuck Schumer are gonna team up to get my guns HA!!!!!!, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 16:51:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.111.235)

Slugboy: Your posts give a pilot like me (I fly a desk) a real glimpse into reality. Thank you. Keep it coming.
 
 

Pablito: 6am is ok, as long as you keep your feet away from the hose :)
 
 

Well, Amendment-22 in Colorado is a done deal, the promoters playing on the Columbine tragedy quite successfully. No one wants bad guys to have guns, but gun-show background checks would have done nothing. Be advised, this is coming to a state near you.
 
 

Regards,

Duman
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
gotmyfingerscrossedforbush, CO, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 17:03:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

In Florida, how can so many expereinced citizens not figure out that Gore wants to take their retirement from them?

At least in Texas, we will have Bush no matter what happens in Florida. He is pro gun, not perfect but substantially better than Gore.

Mars and others in communist states,
You are welcome in Texas, we have space for all, and guns to defend it!

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 17:46:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

JeffA
JeffA <Japke@swbell.net>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 18:10:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.15.97.123)

Partner Jim: On the goretex issue, I suppose then that I have the two ply kind. It's not extremely durable as far as the stitching goes, but my wife did a wonderful number on the stitches and reinforced some points (the map pocket top and bottom are notorious). Good stuff. And really the noise issue isn't any different with it than a poncho.

If I may, let me make a suggestion. Right now, prices are the lowest on 7.62 NATO ammo that I've ever seen. Picking up a case for $150 is QED most anywhere. Likewise, the soviet 7.62 can be had for $100 per case delivered. Brass has never been more plentiful that I can remember. 308 and 223 LC brass is *CHEAP*. If it got any cheaper, I'd be feeding it to the cats instead of catfood. If you don't have some, get some, and put it back. Please. When it's needed, I'm sure you will appreciate it! Besides, I don't want to supply the country from my personal stock ;-)

CDC: point taken, but I'm not sure about your assumption. 'Lito's not half bad in that balarina costume, if he'd shave his legs, he might make it. Is this where I'm supposed to not bring up Mike in a dress? HA! *JOKE YOU GUYS*. I'm no sheep.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 18:45:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

the SMK bangin' off the steel at 1000 yds.

I'm keeping my fingers (and everything else that I got)

crossed, for a Bush victory, and to hell with all the other
 

"candidates" that pull votes away from him. This shit

is too important for us to lose!

Keep the Faith,

ALAN
 
 

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
WESTERN SLOPE OF, COLORADO, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.103)

Ain't this sumpthin? After Bush won Ky with about 10 points I figured he was on the fast road to winning big. This had been a big Clinton state for the last two elections.
I think Bush will likely win it, specially if the mail in ballots have a large military population.
 
 
 
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:37:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.34)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment110800e.shtml

This is more serious than the impeachment.

Bravo: I love you. But you conjure some grisly images.

I'm never again going to trust results that haven't been peer reviewed.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:39:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.49)

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:46:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)

Jeff; Glad you like your Tikka, that looks like a good rifle. One
of the few I haven't tested dang it! Thanks for your report, you came to the right place.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:26:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Normal Para insertion weights for British Paratroopers is 120lb. Hence the US practice of sitting on the Herc with Bergans attached is not used. We fit 'Equipment' (not Chutes) 40 mins prior to drop. When I did my 1st US Para cse in Bragg back in 1986 I did not appreciate the in flight rigging and having my container fitted as soon as the chute went on. We stack our kit then pass it out prior to fitting.

On Ops we tab with up to 120lb of kit which is a mare, although normal loads are around 80lb once inserted. Due to our logistics we all jump with x 2 81mm Mortar bombs and 200rds link for GPMG SF. This gets dropped off at RV's (or carried until required to drop off) in Kosovo the fire base was a nightmare to move due to the ammo scales, so time to move is a real factor!

Sierra Leone was a similar case, we entered into theatre via TALO with 120lb in Bergans plus 45lb webbing. When I got off the plane and that heat hit me I was grateful we landed un opposed.

When operating forwards as a Sniper we try to keep kit light as possible. Hence I deployed to B Coys position with a Bergan of around
50lbs. After briefing an recce I deployed forwards with a Daysack of around 25lb and webbing around 20lb (Mainly due to optics and radio)
Once in the area of operations. Daysacks were dumped radio set up and I moved forwards with webbing only (And both wpn systems/binos)
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

CDC...
you don't know how safe Utah is!... I'm dog ugly!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Gonna have a doubler dark Rum for dinner... maybe 3... in the confused, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.78)

Wild Bill: I like your method! Just don't let the democraps determine the IQ questions. As for government programs, I don't take any money from the government. If I don't receive the cash (back) I don't feel like I've whored myself out to the commies, which our politicians for the most part are. You know, the part about 98% of them giving the other 2% a bad name? HA! *TRUE!!*
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:55:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

General Gooch, front and center! Your orders sir are to attach teams of freedom loving souls ON THE DOUBLE to every AO the democratic attornies are roosting. Shouldn't be too hard to spot since buzzards are probably flying overhead.

Folks, if you have any luck points to call in, the time is now!

Another freaking night of no sleep!!!!! AAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!! Damn, my dog is even getting depressed, course she just got spayed today which has kinda ruined her day OUCHIES!!!!!!!!

Bolt, sitting on pins and needles, OUT!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:59:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.215)

they only work when you have a temerature difference on both sides.
Once wet and cold on the inside the membrane ist "clogged" with water, and the water vapor cant get out.

most of the three layer flecktarn suits I have used are OK within limitations, and those that my sniperpuppies complaint about were sweated wet from the inside.

dont worry about the seams, or small tears/repairs, just seal them with a tent seam sealant or shoegoo. on small tears (2-4 inches)I tape the outside with 100mph tape, pull the garmet inside out and draw a bead of shoe goo over the tear, let dry, remove the tape, and you nearly cant see it from the outside.

the sealed seams, or a few tears only make up a very small percentage of the garment´s overall surface, thus the loss in water vapor transport is minimal compared to the gained effect of having a waterproof layer again.

just my thoughts from very wet germany

t

now someone get up and tip that scale in favor of W

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
could not sleep last night, in, germany - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:01:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.139)

In hides, drapes should be used over loopholes and entrances. These drapes (we use sandbags) should be double layered, to cut down light further. Hence when entering hide you push aside drape move in, ensure drape is back in place and then move through second drape. Stops drama of compromise. When using torch in Hide ensure drapes are down if possible and use shemagh as on ground.

Hide doors ideally should also be offset to viewing/firing ports, this also helps light discipline.

NOTES ON HIDES: It is a Hide! The original concept is to Hide in your hide in order to rest and administer your self. Hides take a lot of effort to build. You can remain on task longer and without compromise of your hide if one pair rests in the hide with another operating/shooting pair overlooking the hide. Shooting from outside the hide etc..
Sometimes Hides become OP's which have a re-active/offensive capability. However fields of view and the ability to move position to engage that awkard tgt can be a problem.
I know of SF Snipers who could not engage a tgt they had spent days waiting for because the Pipe they used as a loop hole had such a limited field of view. Outside is often better (Food for thought?)

Hide Comfort: Often Snipers dig subsurface hides too shallow and suffer for it! If you dig down so you can sit down and your head if four fingers from the roof you will be able to move around more comfortably and quietly.A notable difference.

Happy Hunting Slugboy
 
 
 
 
 
 

Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:07:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

quick test to see if the surplus goretex you are buying is still waterproof. take a little wet sponge, wrap it in the fabric until, well look between your legs for an example, and then squeeze !

The sponge dummies !

No water droplets come out = good Goretex !

t
t <t@lasercon.de>
g3land - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.7)

Anybody else heard of baking goretex and dipping it in tent dry to cure its noise problems? My pastor who was Special Forces told me about this.

Been reading the board for about a year. I have learned so much about long range shooting. You guys have my utmost respect and I thank all of you who have put your lives on the line so we may all live in this wonderful country.

Chad's out
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
OKC, Oklahoma, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:39:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.187.135)

Waiting on a brighter future with the Bushmaster, Bolt OUT!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 00:02:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.6)

Bill in Clearwater - It doesn't matter that Nelson won Mack's seat. McCallum is not your friend either, he is a Republocrat and a turncoat gun supporter!

Cory - You gotta remember that there are two Floridas, the normal one from Lake Ockeechobee north, and the fucked up one from Lake "O" south. You live in the normal area, I live, well, down here. What everybody forgets is that Florida 2000 is not the same as Florida 1996. This state is in such a constant state of flux that what held true four years ago just don't cut it today.

Even with Brother Jeb at the helm, nobody should have assumed that Florida was a "gimme." The population of Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties is so overloaded with bleeding heart, transplanted, northern, liberal, leftwing pukes that "we" can skew just about anything the rest of the state wants.

So why don't I leave? Because I'm a royal pain in the ass to all these pukes. There's no way I, and others like us, should just role over and hand it all to them. They want it, let them fight for it. I ain't going anywhere. And I've actually begun to turn some of them to see the light - not just the 2nd but the whole Constitutional thing. My Homeowners Association wanted me to get "approval" to stick a flagpole on my garage so that I could fly the American flag. Oh, yeah? Well, the flagpole is there and the "approval" was already bought and paid for.

All - Right now, all 67 Florida counties are going through the recount process which may not be completed until late Thursday. I really don't think the results will change that much. In Broward County, the recount came up with one additional vote for GW. As far as the military absentee votes go, they will be counted last, per the rules. If they vote mainly Republican as predicted, and cement the state for GW, I would find it absolutely ironic and fitting that Algwhore gets screwed by the same guys that got screwed by his old boss!

And as far as you guys that voted your conscience, this was NOT the time to show us all how big and shiney your cajones were. Yeah, maybe in a state like Utah where you ABSOLUTELY KNEW who was getting it, but for the rest of the country this was the time to employ strategic moves, not tactical moves.

And if, by some miraculous turn of events, Algwhore does take the election, don't get overly concerned about the Supreme Court nominations thingy. The Republicans still control the Congress, which must approve any SC nominations.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 00:45:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.42)

Great idea, carrying .308 rounds in an M-14 magazine. What a great way to them quiet, handy, and ready for use...IN YOUR BOLT GUN!...;-)

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:11:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.18)

Heh heh
 

TR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.9)

I'm still sweating like a gator in july. Everybody pray hard!

Slugboy....Still outstanding! Keep the great posts coming. They are some of the best ever on this site! I would be interested in your opinion of the rifle system you use and the ammo. Someone mentioned optics too. I'm looking forward to reading your post on scopes used by our Bretton cousins.
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:45:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.3)

Bravo, 'Lito, Bill R, I may dig a hole, but it ain't for burying guns, it's a hide..

Bravo, Yep gonna have to order some more 223, and 9mm for sure...get it while it is plentiful, and cheap..

To the EMT in NY, (sorry forgot your name)Hell, move out of that damn place. Most any city/county would hire someone with your skills.
 

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:46:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.37)

You would not need unlimited ammunition to hit a silver dollar at 3000
yards. Using a rifle that only shot 1 MOA, and assuming that you had
an
absolutely stable T & E mechanism that you could make .0001 MOA
adjustments
to; and you knew the comeups for your ammunition to 3000 yards in .0001
MOA
increments; you would only need slightly more than 13.2 million rounds
of
ammunition to have a statistical certainty of hitting a silver dollar
at
3000 yards (the old style ones, not a Susan B. or gold one).

To consistently hit one, you would need a rifle and shooter that could
shoot
less than 1/2 inch groups at 1000 yards. I think the Mobile Infantry in
Starship Troopers had a rifle like that, but my local gun shop doesn't
stock
them.

Of course the real problem is the optics. You would need a scope that
could
resolve a 1/20th of an inch dot at 100 yards. Maybe one like Tom
Berringer
had in the movie "Sniper". (has anybody figured out what those
blinking
lights in his scope were for?)

pete r <abelaird_knight@yahoo.com>
colorado springs, co, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:00:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.227.178.99)

County-by-county, Gore only carried the major urban areas, SE Florida being the MOST major. Broward has already posted a basic no-change, now Miami has. Barring any last minute surprises, Bush should be confirmed as carrying the State by the end of the recount. The only wrinkle is whether Gore's team finds some way of Clinton-izing the election and making everyone define the word "is" before their votes are admitted.

I don't support Gore (Obviously), but I do believe he will do the honorable thing and step aside if Florida's recount holds for Bush. I don't think he'll make a big stink.
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, Fl, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:00:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.247.237)

SlugBoy, with 120 lbs of kit we all would be "Worm Back" quickly! Thats a load. My LE Guys complain about 40lbs, but over the years we all end up with bad backs.

Bravo, I would never be caught in a dress unless I was visting the inside while a woman wore it.

Election made me sick, yes I voted and told the liberal idiot who was running the booth to F Off and that making a suggestion of how I voted was a crime. The B ran for it quick.

Wes, you get the slings yet?

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.23)

I just got away from the tube, listening to a gore lawyer talking about "They're going to see what the laws are, because Gore got the popular vote, and it's only right!"...

Do the honorable thing? It depends on what the definition of "honorable"... "IS"!

I think that it's even money, that gore won't accept it, if Bush wins, and his lawyers will beat the crap out of the Florida courts with objections to everything, including the color of the ballots.

Gonzo...
I checked out the site you mentioned... the big question was "Why don't snipers post on their board?"... and I told him "It's 'cuz they're all over on Snipercountry" ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:51:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.72)

Match is 3 shots at each of 12 firing points, from 200y - 1,000y. No sighters, and headshots only at the second 600y stage. Winner used a custom-built .280 AI with a Nightforce scope.

(My claim to fame is that he and I car-pooled to the match.)

Bringing to mind the old saying: When I die, I hope to go peacefully, in my sleep, like my grandfather... instead of screaming, like the passengers in his car.
wills <a@b.com>
radioactive, CA, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:10:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

Been 'round, but been pretty busy the last few months. Just reloc'd down here from MN (I actually grew up down here, so it's a return). Getting myself settled has been a major source of busy-ness. I'll have to go shoot w/ Moe when I get my ass in gear again.

Anyway, the wife just informed me that the current recount is showing Gore w/ a gain of some 600 votes (remember, he was shy about 1700). I don't know if this is from any place in particular, or why it would change so dramatically from the very minimal gains he made earlier. Gee I wonder if someone "found" some more votes. snicker, snicker.

Anyway, it ain't over yet, that's for sure.

Later,
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, Fl, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.247.237)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:21:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Two of Undude's rifle slings showed up today. If you haven't seen or used these give them a look see. Workmanship is superb and the idea/design is something SOMEONE should have come up with years ago...

Check these out at Tactical Interventions web site.

One is going on my M40A1 clone and the other on my Chandler Sniper. Will report more after Elk Season, this weekend.

Out,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.41)

I don't have a different solution, and the Sacto facility is top notch. I also feel very fortunate that such a place still exists. Despite the match not being very "tactical" I still feel that it is great way to test your shooting skills against other very talented shooters at long distances.

So, I just hope that Bush wins so we can continue to exercise out 2nd amendment rights in this otherwise very restricted state!
Michael

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
Praying to God that Gore loses!, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

The son of the guy who stole the '60 election for Kennedy is sending 75 lawyers into Florida. That would be Bill Daley son of Richard Daley. They are looking for suspicious stories. With six million voters they can find eye-witness acounts of anything from aliens to the abomidable snow-man. The democrats are looking to turn the election into a big O.J. trial and install the most tedious and condescending jack-ass in the country as president.
 
 
 
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:19:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.12)

UnDude: right on, but you gotta admit, it makes for a humorous visual HA! You sure you never did undercover trying to entice Johns on prostitution stings? DOUBLE HA! I'd ask if you had a sister, but she could probably beat me up too ;-)

Bill: Now if I could only figure out an easier way to get that virgin LC brass into a user friendly form with less work. I'm with you though, I remember the primer shortages in 92? 93? It won't effect me again when primers are now $75 per case. But it's cheap and worth the effort.

Sir Wes: I thought it might be handy info, since some folks here take to butchering perfectly good US GI M-14 mags in order to fit them in bolt guns and overgrown ARs. Besides, they work well for FAL and G3 mags. In other words, if you've got a REAL gas gun, it seems a good pouch! On Mike's slings, I also rave about them. They don't do anything you can't do with the old leather military loop, except for getting into position in a flash, not having any adjustments to make, and being far more durable. In other words, besides being completely superior, there's no difference at all ;-) You'll love 'em. I even got an extra cuff or two to keep on my gear.
Brew deficient Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, slipping for another 4 years, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:25:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.254)

Someone said uscav.com. They definitely have the military style 3 layer, and are the only place I know of to get it outside the military. It may be possible to get it on base at the PX. Most units, including mine, are still issuing the 2 layer parka. I think the pants have always been 3 layer. I would also check Cabela's. I am not sure what camo pattern you want, Jim. If you think you can get by with earth tone civilian styles and want to save a lot of money, go to reioutlet.com or sierratradingpost.com The deals are phenomenal, and siera sometimes has hunting styles.

2 and 3 layer refers to the way the water proof layer is made. 2 layer has a nylon outer laminated to the goretex. It also has a free hanging liner, which protects the goretex from abrasion from the inside. Some liners are mesh, most are cloth. If you go 2 layer, try to get a "hydrophobic," water hating, material. It will not wick water into the jacket.

3 layer has the same nylon outer layer bonded to goretex, with a liner fabric also bonded to the goretex. The three layers make one sandwich, and in the end appear to be one stiff layer.

There is also a new, last year or so, version called paclite. It is indeed lightweight, but appears to be so at a cost of durability. As far as I know, it is civilian style only, and I would guess that probably everyone reading this post should stay away from it since it would not hold up very well under the use we would give it.

One very important thing about gore tex is that the outer layer of nylon, when new, is treated with what is called durable water repellant, or DWR. DWR will be washed and worn off over time. If that happens, the nylon will get water logged and will not breathe, as someone, (Torsten maybe?) mentioned. DWR can be restored with a product called TX direct by Nikwax. A lot of camping stores have it. It costs maybe $8 a bottle, which will do top and bottom. I thought it was expensive until it was pointed out to me that it was cheaper than buying new gear. There are other spray and wash in products available to replenish DWR, but I am stuck as to their names. They will say they are suitable for water proof/ breathable garments. If it doesn't say that, it may clog the pores, and you turned that goretex into a very expensive rubber raincoat. Use the gentlest soap/ etc possible when washing goretex. NEVER use liquid detergent. Some people are even saying stay away from powdered detergents. I use a product by Nikwax to wash mine now, but I suspect Woolite or Ivory soap flakes would also work.

Bottom line, if you are having problems with older goretex, replenish the DWR. Good DWR sheds water like a freshly waxed car. It just beads up and runs off.

Semper Fi, less than 24 hours left here on the east coast!
Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:32:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.63)

WWWWWhat is with your election??????? Go to bed last night safety knowing Bush has prevailed and now...

Someone please explain this 30,000 Overseas vote thing - You got 30,000 troops originally from florida and they are all overseas?
I am a little confused - our guys who live in the shack vote in their enlisting home riding, the guys who live off base vote in the local riding.
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:42:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.16)

Wills in Radioactive, Ca. is that Livermore ? You a Labbie ?

Tim in Ca.
T.Meyers The PeaShooter <madmacs@inreach.com>
Tracy, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 06:42:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.25.61.53)

cheers, don
don <georges@silcom.com>
goleta, calif, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 07:36:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.71.192.251)

Jim: Here's my two cents on goretex. Do as suggested and use Woolite. It has worked well for me. Use the delicate cycle and remove the top after the rinse but before the spin. I've seen andliner seams blow out because of the water's hydraulic action against them. After all, that water certainly isn't going to pass through the membrane, either way. Wash twice if really muddy. I treat with Scotchguard (it's cheaper than the sports washes), especially after the exterior finish becomes fuzzy with wear. It doesn't seem to glow under IR anymore than the damn synthetic material does to begin with. If you are buying this stuff out of pocket, treat it well.

Slugboy: Really enjoy your posts. Gives great insight into deployment concerns. Keep it up. I have to say, though, the vernacular is killing me. Attended Bisley in '93 with the NG(TA) and thought I had a pretty good handle on it. Hell, I even ate deep-fried toast and beans for breakfast. But what in God's green earth is a Shemagh? I'm sure that I have to have one, I just don't know what it is! It brings to mind some lacy, boa-type thing that smells of cheap perfume and cigarettes. Help me out.

Everyone: I didn't realize that I was commending the dreaded chicken shooter with my last post on the Sniper FTX Summary. Duck and cover. Seriously, I thought about the whole chicken thing and come to a conclusion. Here you have highly animated, melon-sized targets that the shooter has to index quickly. More importantly, you don't have 4-5 shooters working the pits with popsicle stick targets. They can be shooting or observing on the line where they should be. I'm just thinking that Range Control at my local active-duty post couldn't quite live with the mess, though. Thumbs up again, Jeff. Duck and cover.
SSG Maries/ 2-162 INF/ ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 08:00:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.163.142.12)

I don't know how many of you guys are into semi-autos like the AR10s, but they fascinate me. Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

My new Hesse HAC 25 came in. I've compared it to the other .308s in my collection. It's bad.

1. Blue barrel, scuffed at the muzzle.
2. Front sight mount is aluminum. It won't hold up to shooting.
3. Handguard is SHORT. It's stupid looking. It has a bad scratch 2/3 around it that looks like it was was touched up with a magic marker.
4. The upper receiver seems to be an extrusion with some machining done on it. It's not as nice looking as Knight's extrusion or as strong as ArmaLite's forging. It's real loose in the
lower receiver.
5. The charging handle isn't made from a forging. It's soft aluminum.
6. The bolt carrier is blued. It's not chromed inside.
7. Receiver finish is really bad. The pivot and takedown pins are loose.
8. The lower receiver is cheaply machined from an aluminum plate. It looks really bad. The magazine well isn't broached. It's machined from the top and has lots of machine marks.
9. The rifle uses a modified FAL magazine. An original FAL magazine won't work. The modified FAL magazine won't work in a FAL because the front tab is smashed in and the notch at the rear is machined off. If BATF gave ArmaLite trouble over their converted magazines, this is worse. Hesse hasn't answered earlier questions about whether their magazine is approved by BATF. This is a bad problem.
10. GI trigger.
11. The firing pin is poorly machined and not ground.
12. The firing pin spring is weaker than ArmaLite's, and doesn't stay on the firing pin when
you clean the rifle.
13. The firing pin retainer is from a standard AR-15. It's short for a .308. It is badly bent.
14. The gas tube is bent and the carrier key has two gouges in the mouth where it hit the gas tube. It all fits together but I don't trust it.
15. The extracter is badly machined. It doesn't have a rubber plug in the spring.

There's more but you get the drift. I'm going to take pictures then shoot it.

The rifle came to me dirty and scratched. It's really bad. I'm going to get rid of it no matter what. My ArmaLite was worth the extra money.
Matt Murphy <Murphy_Six@bigfoot.com>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 08:08:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.91.24.69)

To those who responded, thanks for the info on 80 gr .223's and Varget.

Good luck with the recount(s)!
 

MarkD
Mark Dougan <dougie@mill.co.uk>
UK - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 09:29:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.117.231.52)

Riflesix Out.
Jared <Paladen67@uswest.com>
Utah, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 10:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.224.210.128)

Also, when the subject is brought up, what are some solid reasons that a team would need one. Our reasons will have to be backed up by solid information from those who have first hand training and experience and if it's from a fellow police officer, more the better.

Your all assistance is appreciated. Please respond to my private email. Thank you.

Patrick Sloan
Patrick Sloan <psfamily@mail.com>
Brenham, Tx, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 11:47:4YourULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.253)

don...
On that 50,000 fps thing, it's shaky science. The velocity of a gas driven projectile is limited be the speed of sound in the propelling medium.
Some time back, there were experements by Hutton, and he used the Weatherby case, and a light (19 grain) .22 bullet, and got around 6200 fps. It reaches a point where the powder you are adding, is needed to drive the powder you are adding, and the propellent weight, itself, becomes the projectile.

The Navy needed very high speed projectile bullets, to study the impact of outer space "junk" on steel armor, and developed a two stage "gun".
The first stage was driven by hugh loads of conventional powder. When that was fired, it drove a large piston into a second stage of compressed Helium (Helium has the highest speed of sound, and is the fastest moving gas)... the Helium reached incandescent tempretures (and monsterious pressures), and a steel pellet that was literaly "welded" into the throat of the barrel, finely gave way at around 200,000 psi, and went down a 30 foot barrel. The barrel, and the space between the gun, and the target, had been sucked to near absolute vaccume, so there would be no "forward load" on the bullet... the whole thing weighed about 20 tons... the maxium velocity was 25,000 fps, and the bullet weight was around 100 grains.
That was the fastest they could do, no matter how much powder they used in the first stage... it wouldn't go faster.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 11:59:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.124)

http://www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=135351

We shouldn't move FROM states that are 'in play' like Florida. We should move TO them.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 13:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.17)

And by the way you guys over "there", We love dead people over here... they always make the best politicans. They can't hurt anything and they don't raise taxes. You don't kead what you're missing.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 13:17:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I was thinking this is more of a conspiracy by Slick Willie to void the election so he remains in office !!! What a thought !!!
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge , NJ, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 13:35:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

The Goddamned Democraps in Fla are demanding a new election... but only in the areas that the liberal voter % is high.
What about the Pan-Handle republicans that didn't vote, cuz they're in a different time zone, and were told (by the "ALL KNOWING" media) that Bush had won, and the election was "Over"... are the Dems demanding that they get a new chance to vote... NOOOoooo.

The media ought to StFU (Shut the F**K up), and wait ten days, till ALL the votes are in... they just keep sturring the fires of disention.

Shit, lets throw the whole damn thing out, and start from scratch... free transportation for voters in states that have bad weather... free translators for the illegals that were regestered "by mail" and never had to show any I.D. Ballots that give the voter F-I-V-E chances to get it right (right, meaning an inspection by an offical appointed by Reno).

Wake me up when sane people are in charge.. no, no... I may sleep forever :((

Just loaded the "Jungle Truck", with 3 riffles, and a 10mm Colt Delta...
I'm going shooting!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 14:03:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.124)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 14:45:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Just got word from Rod Ryan that the rifle raffle ticket was pulled...

"the raffle ticket was pulled and the winner is Wayne Webber, a Police Officer in NJ. "

Thanks ladies and gents...

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 15:05:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

The navy has another project underway to get a projectile moving fast. What it is is tube and a projectile that fits into the tube with the te front a cone and a definite disconitnuity about midway back. The secret is that the tube has a variety of different gas mixtures seperated by membranes.

The idea is that the projectile is initially fired by a conventional charge. In the first chamber, the gas mixture flowing between the projectile discontinuity (o step to save my fingers) and the tube wall is igniting, pushing on the back of the projectile and accelerating it. The burning rate of the gas mixture is carefuly chosen so it doesn't fall behind and put out the flame front and doesn't get ahead and slow down the projectile. Each chamber is carefully set up in length and gas mixture to propel the object. To speed is in the 20,000 fps range. For some reason, most trials end up in fizzle nothing going anywhere.

To accelerate an object on Earth to 50,000 fps would require a quantum singularity, or enough power to run Chicago for a week. Anything going that fast in atmosphere will immediately Halt, Melt, and Catch Fire (the dreaded HMCF computer error) from friction and the firing force.

The best way of doing what you are thinking about would be to use a laser. Speed of the particles is about 9*10^8 fps. Of course, the only thing you will do with man portable one nowadays is give someone a sunburn and blind 'em.

Now for a serious question:

Single stage or two stage triggers? Both have good/bad points. What do those of you who actually do this sort of thing prefer?
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 15:59:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Pablito: Shooting with a hangover is tough, but it sure beats not shooting at all. :-)

Regards,
Duman

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
onlyinamericacanthisstuffhappen, Colorado, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 16:28:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

In fact conservative/patriotic/gun owners consolidating themselves in one place maybe a great idea! It may be our best means of survival long term. Um, oh yeah, we already went over this. Sorry.

I had to turn the TV off, it is making me want to hurl something.

Lets hear from Slugboy. I want to ask the inevitable question, but it seems it may be bad form to ask if you had to pull the trigger while in SL?

My question is probably out of line, but my curiosity is getting the better of me.
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 16:42:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.187)

As far as justifying a sniper section for you TAC Team to your superiors, sum it up with two words....CHARLES WHITMAN.

As you know, CW gunned down people from the campus in TX for some time before police could get him down. Had they had a sniper team, it couldn've been resolved quickly and efficiently. This incident was one of the reasons many depts began to establish sniper teams.

Further, a WELL TRAINED sniper team brings a much better degree of safety and control to tactical situations. The real time intelligence and precision fire they bring to a situation, such as a barricaded supspect have a tremendously beneficial impact upon public/officer safety.

Sniper teams can actually reduce the violence needed to resolve a situation in many occassions. For example, would you rather send in a team of guys with MP5s when the job could be done with a single precision rifle shot? And if you are on the entry team, would you like to have real time intel on the objective and someone covering your avenue of approach to the entry point with precision fire?

One word of caution though, if your dept can't budget the resources to do the job right, then don't do it at all. A half assed sniper team is far, far worse than not having one at all.

Practice doesn't make Perfect;
Perfect Practice makes Perfect.

Good Luck.
 
 

Jeff

SSG MARIES:

Check you email. I sent you some training stuff I can't post here and let me know if you got it. Thanks for the kind words and all, but I'm just a balding guy with a beer guy now.

Glad to see you here though, its a joy to see some tactical subject matter on the board rather than just bullethead stuff (which is too complicated for me anyways!)

I am working on an article for Infantry Magazine with a few folks. Hope you will join us.
 

Jeff
Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:40:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.32.44)

I want a repoll!!! errr pull!!!

Congradulations Wayne, treat it right.
Medulla762 <medulla762@yahoo.com>
packingtogo, hunting, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:48:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.153.135.212)

If you guys want to move to Florida, come on down! The more the merrier! :-))

BUT -
1 - You must bring your guns with you, LOTS AND LOTS OF GUNS!

2 - You must move in between two liberal, commie, socialist pukes!

3 - You must supply your own ear plugs to drown out the wailling of your new neighbors! :-))

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
WhoDidIVoteFor?, FL, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:54:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.196.211)

Is there going to be a winter shoot in Florida?? Anybody??

Details??
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:43:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Karl: of course I prefer the two stage trigger! HA! For precision shooting I like the lightweight single stages, but anyone who says it can't be done with a 4 pound NRA legal two stage just hasn't tried it.

'Lito: right on the big gun. At Johnson when I was working there, they had a similar set up, used a 1" solid steel projectile. It was "primed" with a pound of, if memory serves, 800X. Detonation was a shotgun primer, and that impinged on a cylinder of hydrogen. The Hydrogen was the real propellant. The high speed photo guys (one of 'em is a buddy of mine) LOVED that gun, the barrel was measured in yards. Now for the funny part. They got their supplies at the same local store that I did. They, however were forced to send TWO cars to retrieve the pound of powder and the primers. And if anyone is around 'Cruces, ask Carl at Custom Cartridge Company for the details. It's HILARIOUS!

You guys catch the crap from the Time "reporter"? She called our overseas servicemen "TAX EVADERS"!!! Seeems that she took exception to the fact that they claim Florida as their "home state" while over seas so that they don't have to pay the higher taxes of other states. So if you're a "tax evader" that is in some Godforsaken hellhole doing what you've been commanded unconstitutionally to do, and you've been ripped out of your right to vote, as many of our servicemen have, well, I hope you remember this when it all comes about.
Bravo762 - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LET IT START HERE!, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:44:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

The communists own Mass and NY. Get used to it. At the presidential level the good-guys own Utah and Idaho. New Mexico could go either way. So, if someone wants to make a difference, don't move to Idaho. Move to New Mexico, Colorado, Florida, etc.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:48:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)

go to http://www-phys.llnl.gov/H_Div/GG/

It's neat.
I read that at similar device registered >125db @ 300 meters away.
Use plugs and muffs;-)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:59:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

(Emphasis added)
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 19:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)

Welcome to Colorado! There is a gun store within driving distance from you, called Tactical Solutions Group. They have some nice stuff. www.TacticalSolutionsGroup.com, I think.

Regards,
Duman

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Need more beer, to get through this election, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 19:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

I am having a problem and hope someone can help. I am looking to pick up a Sako TRG-22. In Finland, I could pick up one of these for $1500.00. Here in the states, the going price is $2690.00.

Is there a way to have one of these imported from Finland? Even if it was close to $500.00 to do this I would still be interested. Anybody know the process for importing firearms from overseas?

Thanks all
 

jTR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 20:08:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.29)

http://www.snipershide.com/
Artimus <macsys@halcyon.com>
WA, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 20:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.63.38.146)

Yes, NM could go either way.

Latest figures (Albuquerque Journal) show Gore 258,842 and Bush 255,184, absentee ballots and "early votes" not all counted yet.

Bernalillo County (Albuquerque) had Gore 90,672, Bush 81,429.

Santa Fe County had Gore 21,474, Bush 8,212. No surprise here, this is the "Adobe Disneyland," beloved by the channelers and New Age nuts.

A lot of ranching and farming counties liked Bush by 2 to one, up to 3 to 1 in some cases.

Interestingly, Bernalillo County is in the midst of "retabulating" their results. They insist that it is not a recount, though! Seems some of the voting machines may not have properly assigned votes to the selected candidate if a voter chose the straight party button. Supposedly a result of a "software glitch."

If you like Florida's election procedures, you'll absolutely fall in love with voting in New Mexico.

I say let Rod run another competition at Storm Mountain with only Bush and Gore competing. Winner takes office and a free Mildot Master.

(That's a joke, by the way. We can still make jokes in America. Look at our elections this year.)
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 20:59:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.104.146)

2. Did I pull the trigger in LS, well yes! but we all gotta check zero! Think how many multi kill British Snipers have you heard off? It's just not cricket old boy. We do what we do and I know what I've done!

3. Optics etc..

.338 AI Super Magnum, issued as is with x3 -x12x50 Schmidt & Bender
telescopic sight with Mil dot reticle and range stadia.1xMilrad
adjustments.
Issued with the following:
*Cullman tripod (Breaks down well into various configurations. The
small ground spike being an excellent option)
*Emergency Iron sights (Problems with the spring loaded leaf sight
breaking, although AI are addressing this)
*Laser Range Finders (Leica Vector) x 7 fantastic optics, even
without laser capability, if a little bulky
*Simrad KN203 night sight (giant leap forward for our snipers,
however very susceptable to humidity. The on/off button breaks off
easily allowing humidity to enter internal components easily. 4
sights became useless during SL's 21 day Op and we did not have
Logistic sp to repair them)
*Leupold x12-x40 Spotting scope (Give title L1A1, like all over kit
they issue)Small, durable and very effective scope. (We were sold on
x60 Spotting scopes as our next spotting scopes until we tested this
little baby, capable of ID vehicle Reg No's at 2km handheld.)
*Drag Bag
*Killflash optic filters/raysheilds
*Rifle sling
*Cleaning kit & equipment (Breakfree, Jag, pullthrough, lens tissue,
lens cloth, Allen keys, screwdriver, flanellette, Chamber guide &
rod, chamber cleaning stick, Lens brush, Brush cleaning bore, oil
bottle)
*x3 10rd Mags
*Spare butt spacers
*Muzzle cover

L96, still comes with x6x40 Schmidt & Bender telescopic sight with
German post and 1MOA adjustments.
*Normal issue L1A1 'self focus' Binos are used x7 mag with basic
Graticle pattern 5mil/10mil lines (tiring on eyes due to fixed
focus, but clear optics, although nowhere near Leica quality)
*M49 Spotting scope x20 mag as issued to US forces (Disadvantage of
being unable to be stripped and cleaned when misted inside)
*Baroner Spotting scope x22 Mag, draw type scope, easy to carry in
jkt pocket, good field of view, again unstrippable)
*Scout Regiment Scope, x20 Mag draw type scope, WW1 origin, long
nauticle type scope. Robust can be field stripped & cleaned, last a
life time. Slow to focus until practiced in the art (Scope used by
original Ghillies)
*ONLY ONE OF THE ABOVE SPOTTING SCOPES WILL APPEAR IN A UNIT, UNIT
ISSUE WILL VARY
*Snipers use a trip flare picket covered in hessian to support these
Scopes.(Less bulk than M49 tripod)
*CWS (Common wpn sight) x4 NVD designed for SA80 with L96 bracket
Non of the above is suitable in the Modern climate, but we have to make do.

L96 upgrade, this is an ongoing programme of equipment supplied by AI and includes;
*x3-x12x50 Schmidt & Bender telescopic sight with Mil dot reticle, Range stadia and parallax adaptor.
*Leupold x12 -x40 Spotting scope
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 21:29:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

2. Snipers rarely buy their own telescopic sight in the Army.
Gun laws in UK detract from the air time of good products.

3. Many units do not have sniper sections. 1 & 2 Para do and SAA/SBS
have sniper operatives. Most units train snipers and penny packet
them a problem which needs addressing.

4..338 rifle is only issued to RM Cdo bde, and 16 AA Bdes all over
Army formations only have L96. SF have whatever they wish!

Tried to answer most questions I've seen hope this helps?
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 21:39:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

Subject: How to Properly Vote using Your Florida Ballot

This isn't about who voted for whom, it's about a bunch of whiney people that can't follow a large arrow to a hole! Here's a website that shows a picture of the ballot.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/elections/palmbeachballot.htm

* if you're voting for GORE and have an IQ below 40, please use the large red crayon.

* if you've already punched your ballot for NADER, but meant to vote for GORE, and did so because you can't follow the large arrow pointing to the punch-hole you're suppose to punch, then please spill the indelible ink all over your hands, so that next election we'll be able to identify that you're a moron and we will hold your hand while voting.

* if you've already punched your ballot for BOTH GORE AND BUCHANAN, and think that the computer will know that you meant to vote for GORE, and turned in the ballot, anyway, then please fill out the following application for transferring your residency to Chicago, because William Daley can use your multi-voting capabilities in Illinois in future elections.

* if you're voting for BUSH, please use the disappearing ink.

* if you're in the military and/or voted absentee, don't worry, we'll count your votes in a week or two (sure we will!). We're not worried about those ballots, right now. they are not IMPORTANT. The only votes that are worth re-considering are those that came from Boca Rotan, Palm Beach and south Dade county where voters couldn't fill out a free giveaway application at WalMart, unless the $4.65/hr clerk showed them how.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
I should have gone to Florida to vote but, God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 21:57:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

Hey, wait a minute! Can you even own a rifle in NJ?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 22:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.2)

I just opened the christmas meade to test it. Whew what a buzz.

The ballot was so easy, a blind man could have done it. Dumb asses abound.
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
In the land of socialist whiners, Fl., USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 22:53:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.83)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment110900d.shtml

I, for one, don't doubt that the democrats dominate the dumb-ass vote.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 01:48:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.110)

Anyone of youz bums have any knowledge of the "AR-50" riffle.

I saw one briefly at my dealers today... he had ordered for some other guy.
Looked beautiful... all 42+ pounds of it... my heart's still going pitty-pat!!

I definitly could live with one of those puppies in my house:))

Youz guys got any personal feedback?... OK, I'll take rumors!

Dean M. (Trigger 50)... You out there lurking. Lemme know what you think of them.

------------------------------------------

I made a copy of the Florida ballot off the internet, and gave it to my son (who is 8!)... and did a "If you had to pick "gore", which dot would you color?"... by my wrist watch, it took him four seconds to get it right!

I had a friend that said "All food should come in cans... that way, people that are too stupid to use a can opener, won't live long enough to breed!"

He called it "Social Darwinism!"

Why should adults that have the mental skills of a 4 year old, even be in the election process at all...
(OK Bravo... I know it's constitutional).
... but then if they are too stupid to punch a hole in a ballot, what bit of political knowledge to they posess that makes them fit to help decide how the country should be run???
None... So make the ballots like a kiddie maze on the place mats at "Dutchess" or "Big Boy"... and if the voter can figure it out, they are smart enough to vote.

Got ma' 10mm smokin' and I'm ready to go back to Robs bunch, and get whipped again ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)

BTW: Bush's camp have grown a backbone. They now are on record as saying that if algor doesn't concede the race, they will protest the voting fraud in five different states. And it's documented. They'll win. Nixon had a real reason to question the ballot count, but didn't "for the good of the country". Too bad algor couldn't take a lesson.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LET IT START HERE!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.244)

I got a problem with the dingleberrys that vote, and go home, and the next day, when their guy looses, then jumps up and says, "Not fair, I punched the wrong hole, cuz I didn't understand it!".

I voted for (you know who), and now, I can't remember what line the switch thing was on... how does somebody remember several days later, which dot they punched?? Cuz some slickster "TELLS them what to say"!

'lito
 

Pablitoi <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)

this presidential erection has given me a softie, my gut is tellin me Bush has it, but those goddamn democraps are bound to screw us over, I only have one word for it, and it's not nice.

Darren, the only way you can get an 11.25" twist in a .308 is if I get every autograph from the Raiders, and some of the A's. Maybe a helmet would be nice. LOL!!!! Oh, I mean, I'm serious!! heheheh...hope to see ya out here, I'll keep my eye out for ya

I think I can get H-S to go standard on 11.25 twists, gimme some time, let me know if this is the real shit. Ballistically 168's and above it is no contest, IMHO.

Pat, is lock stock and barrel fairly competetive for reloading equip?? I've heard I can go the same for less elsewhere............

I have about 40 45" 50 cals to make here within a few weeks, I may not keep up with the email as fast as you'd hope, but I'll do my best.

PeteR:

talked to my dad this week, says the pheasants are lousy East River, he's really rubbin' it in
 

check ya later
 
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.14)

Well I got one blue print for a .50. It was semi auto though. What I may do is re-design the Weatherby Mark V action. I intend to enlarge it to accomadte the .50, this is a proven design. I prefer to work with a bolt gun. Anyway if any of you have any blue prints that detail measurements and dimentions please let me know.

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmaI.com>
USA? - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:10:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.211)

Patron 'Lito: we're shooting at the same target here, really. My point was that the system is set up to handle everyone, regardless of disability, physical or mental. What we have now is a source of mentally substandard individuals that can't admit that they're stupid at the time, and look for someone to blame it on later. Egos are evil things in some people, notably the condescending mental midgetry.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LET IT BEGIN HERE!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:18:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.244)

At what ranges did you observe opposition forces and engage targets? Was your rifle capable of neutralizing the enemy's armored personnel carriers under the conditions you expected to engage them? Were they track vehicles or rubber tire?

You said that, in the event of an enemy assault, you were tasked to engage the enemy from the rear. I would assume that your primary means of doing so would be to direct mortar fire onto their positions. Is that correct? Did you think that you had enough mortars at your disposal to repel such an attack? Were their expected lines of communication and staging areas obvious enough that you were able to pre-plot your target areas? Would they be forced to concentrate in small areas for an attack?

Again, if you are unable to answer these questions, we understand.
 
 

Pablo, Bravo, I understand that it has been ruled on so there is that all-important precedent. I posted the link. Here it is again.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment110900d.shtml

(Disclaimer: All I know about the law is that, except for Old Dog, I can't stand lawyers.)
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:38:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.89)

Rabon <fairchase@iwon.com>
Alaska, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.151.181)

NAACP, Jesse Jackson, James Carvel, and the rest of the attack dogs, it's no wonder these people are often considered the enemy. They don't know how to act with dignity or honor.

I'll try to go out shooting here tomorrow or over the weekend so in my next post I can talk about something other than politics and the "CryBaby Party."
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 07:12:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Nice posts again!

How about some performance info on your duty ammo, what do you chaps shoot/carry for the .338/416 Lapua AI's - FMJ, API, other?
Field performance of ammo on static and hard targets?
 
 
 

Rabon,

Democrats as Sheep????? now don't go slurring the West Virginny State animal! Plus you can kill'em and eat em (sheep that is) and they are awful tasty.

Democrats - old - stringy - taste like Geritol Gaaaaaaaaahski
 
 
 

JR,

On top of ALL the political turmoil you have to bring up (taunt me) ringnecks again! :-) Hmmmmmm oven baked cackle chicken with roasted taters & ham n green beans.
 
 

********************************************************************

Folks- In spite of all the recent Y2KPOLLY CRAPSKI -
 

PLEASE REMEMBER ALL THE VETERANS WHO DIED, OR WERE MAIMED, TO KEEP US FREE AND ABLE TO BITCH ABOUT WHAT WE DON'T LIKE. God Bless them!
 

********************************************************************
 

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 11:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.49)

Today is the Marine Corps Birthday! Semper Fi!
 

Ken :)
 
 

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 12:02:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

A "Gore-on"

*:-0
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 13:14:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.62)

What's that tell you?

Do you suppose changing the term 'fool-proof' to 'democrat-proof' would be fair to fools?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 14:50:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.58)

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 15:17:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

Thanks again for your time and knowledge in regards to my situation. I also appoligize for any spelling errors. I am a USAF combat rifle instructor, not a literature major.

Charlie Mike (Continue Mission)

Ray
Ray <iamdangerclose@cs.com>
Las Vegas, NV, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 15:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.154)

Long live the United States, and success to the MARINES!
Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:27:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.33)

I hear what you are saying about the Whitman incident. And I must always not try to speak as an know it all, particullarly on incidents I wasn't at.

But, what I read about that incident, was that it was guys with hunting rifles (those nasty "civilians..") who made any contribution to suppressing Whitman. The police apparantly only had pistols and shotguns.

And maybe a fully trained sniper team would have outmatched Whitman by a longshot, but, thats the name of the game. Any time you have a guy gunning down civilians with even basic military/hunting skills, its pretty serious.

Also, a trained sniper team will be thinking perhaps a bit more about other issues, such as "where can I shoot from that provides an adequate backstop against my round to avoid collateral damage etc." than the average guy with a patrol rifle.

I see your point and respect it. Lot's of LEA's issue "patrol rifles" to their patrol units now and that might have saved the day.

However, the Whitman incident was one popular incident which did lead to the evolution of police snipers. There have obviously been several more incidents where they have been highly beneficial to police/public safety.

And while I have strong feelings about Ruby Ridge, that is the exception to the rule and not the norm. Not that its excusable in any way, shape or form.

I think LTC Plasters book, the Ultimate Sniper has a section about this incident.

Keep those beers a brewing! See you around!
 

Jeff
Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:46:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.44.194)

Probably will get an identical scope the rifle is the only question

Choices are Rem. PSS or Rem. LTR i can get either for $699

First off is this a good price for these rifles?

Secondly which would you recommend?

I understand the velocity lost by the 20" over 26" barrell is negible with .308

Understanding manufacturing variables in a production rifle which "should" be more accurate?

Thank you all
Geoff
Geoff <sgtgeo@hotmail.com>
Raleigh, NC, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:53:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.86.252.33)

Ken: Yup! Happy Birthday USMC! I'd forgotten all about today with the distractions of possible global anihiliation. After all, I doubt China knows that we're in a near state of civil unrest, with a lame dick (er, duck) president, and Tiawan doesn't mean anything to them anyhow. But as the semper fidellis has taken history, it will proceed in the future. All out!

And I think I got a cursed starlight case. I was mad about not being able to go shooting, so I left Betty Lou in the case waiting for good weather. It rained for almost 3 weeks solid. So last night I load her up again for this morning, and wake up to a solid foot of snow. It's dumped over another foot on me since I woke up. Heck, after shoveling the drive, my wife took off (not 15 minutes later) and there was another inch on the pavement! Well, atleast the feds will have a hard time getting up the hill HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
time to stay at home and read "a time to hunt", USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:57:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.181)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment111000b.shtml

Bill R already hinted at this, but consider the following Tom Clancy scenario: Gorewinkle appears dumb enough to think he's going to blow off the constitution and O.J. jury his way into the presidency. Professional rabble-rousers are in the process of whipping the inner cities into a Rodney-King-Riot frenzy. THIS ADMINISTRATION does not understand violence but has the power to put troops in the streets. The troops didn't vote for him and don't like him.

There are some mean and merciless people overseas who don't like us and are watching closely. One has the power to disrupt our life blood which is our oil supply. It is the responsibility of THIS ADMINISTRATION to deal with those people while defending the constitution domestically.

The outcomes of these events are completely unpredictable. I expect it will all blow over like that Y2K nonsense.
 
 
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 17:00:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.76)

On Lon Horiuchi: I will feel much more at ease when I grab the carton of milk in the morning and see his face on the side. That he is afforded witness protection status is in my mind indefensible. I don't want to start an uproar with you pro-Lon guys, this is just my mindset.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
happy birthday USMC!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 17:13:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.164)

Carry on...
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Surrounded by liberals with blue hair and five pounds of metal stuck through their faces in Austin, Texas, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 18:01:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MARINES! LONG LIVE THE CORPS AND SUCCESS TO THE MARINES!

Now that I have that off my chest, I want to thank all our brothers (and sisters) who have served. You can be justifiably proud of your contributions.

The Election: I am sickened by the current election. Got a post that said the Pres can declare the Florida vote "tainted" and disalow it and the electoral votes. Meanwhile Al Gore has not been visibly involved, but his minions are doing everything they can to insure the win. It presently looks like Gore will take Oregon. Would like to know WHY it takes so long for a state our size to count a couple million votes and why it takes so long for the precincts to "report".

Personally, I think we had better get ready for 4-8 years of a Demo President. In another 2-4 I think the house and senate will roll back to democract control. Unfortunately, we seem to have a bunch of Demo politicians/lawyers who have figured out a way to subvert our electoral system and have the lack of morals to do so...

Think I'll go place some orders for brass, primers, bullets, and powder...

Semper Fi,

Wes
(PRAYING TO GOD I'M WRONG)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 19:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)

For those interested in NM politics, Gore's lead is now down to 164 votes statewide, after the "retabulation" last night and today in the Bernalillo County election results warehouse. The 1700 or so absentee ballots (which include a lot of military) have been counted but not yet announced, and are not included in the totals yet. Our measly 5 electoral votes are still up for grabs.

Interestingly, there are 252 ballots "missing", that officials are trying to locate within the warehouse. How they know that exactly 252 are missing is anybody's guess.

As Gore's lead evaporated from 3700 down to 164, the state Democratic Chairperson announced that she has been in touch with the Dem's in DC and requested observers to be sent here immediately. Earlier she appeared to have no need for them!

Note to DC lawyers parachuting into NM:
I'd suggest a night insertion, it's still dove season out here.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 19:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.105.159)

De Oppresso Liber !!
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Early this week I wrote an email to Leupold to find out how to get a 308Y dial. Their reply said that "they are developing new (i.e., better) dials that will be available after the first of the year".

"new (i.e., better)" are their words not mine so don't ask me for specifics. But it is something to keep an eye on.

If this has been covered recently, sorry for the rehash, take it as a reminder.

Doug

Doug <dmorisoli@worldnet.att.net>
PA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:59:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.214.242)

The cams for the M3-LR, and the MK4-M3 are being re-calculated, due to errors discovered my some bum on this site, after about two years of work.

Go back in the archives and read the last 6 months.

Looks loke New Mexico is going to join the "recount" fray...

I ordered a 50 cal today, an AR-50 today... more macaroni and cheese ;((

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.32)

It would be worth your while to go to the links page of this site and find 'Frount Sight' in Pahrump. The honcho there is named Naish Piazza. He's fully competent to show you how to use the scout rifle. If you want a dedicated long-range rifle, there are better, and cheaper, options.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:32:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.70)

Hope enlightens previous posts Slugboy!

Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:34:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

Dean, I need to get hold of you for some assistance. Please email me.

Jeff
Jeff <jeff.harmon@acterna.com>
McKinney , TX, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.36)

Also, just a word of thanks to the webmasters who contribute much of what little free time they have so that we can have a forum like this.

Also, in spite of all the elections issues going on, think for a minute about how many places in the world would allow the freedom of speech that we can have a site like this free censorship.

God Bless America and may we never forget.
 

Jeff
Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:42:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.46.126)

When are we going to see some pictures from this year's Rendezvous?
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:45:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.69)

Hopefully soon, but its my understanding Marius is up to his ears in counting ballots, ooops ;-)
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:58:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.212)

Well over 2 feet of snow, and it's cooling off (still snowing!) Betty Lou is feeling neglected.

Anyone think that if I claimed I filled out my ballot wrong, they'd give me a government entitlement program for free M-118LR? Where's that algor red crayon? HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 23:33:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.245)

iiii's out
iiiiwanabe <mikelsam@ipa.net>
siloam springs, Ar, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 00:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.128.140.61)

Thanks, Bud
Bud Montague <budmont1@optonline.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 01:43:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.189.149.32)

a) Must see 5.56 bullet holes at 300 yards in paper.
b) Must see 7.62 bullet holes at 600 yards in paper.
c) No recticle on the lens (cover up bullet holes?)
 

I would prefer not to sell my kidney but would consider it. HA!
 
 
 
 

McGrath
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, Missouri (First to ever elect a dead man. Wasted our most sacred gift. Votes!!!!!!), USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 01:47:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

http://www.aspiringtech.net/Pics/morons1.gif

Ken :)

Ken <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Question, "What three things will be left after all life has ended on Earth?"

Answer, "Clintons, Gore and Cockroached".

Semper Gumby Marines.

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:47:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.102.23.52)

If this is not something you guys wanna see, let me know. I figure current events are good for snipers to consider for future work.
 

>
>Panama arms trade a question of supply and demand
>
>
>October 18, 2000

>
>PANAMA CITY (Reuters) -- From gold-laden mule trains linking the Pacific
>and Atlantic oceans in the 1500s to the shimmering canal at the heart of
>its modern service-led economy, Panama has long benefited from legitimate
>east-west trade.
>
>But with the weapons-laden nations of Central America to the north and
>Colombia's cocaine-fueled war machine to the south, the narrow, tapering
>isthmus now is being sucked into a spiraling regional barter economy in
>drugs and guns.
>
>Rust-flecked weapons used by former combatants in Nicaragua's bloody Contra
>war that killed 30,000 in the 1980s are smuggled through Panama by land and
>sea to Colombian rebels, often in exchange for Andean cocaine en route to
>the United States, prosecutors say.
>
>The ideological stripe of the outlaw faction is no object, with left-wing
>Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and National Liberation Army
>(ELN) rebels queuing up to buy alongside right-wing paramilitaries,
>officials say.
>
>"The trade in arms and drugs through Panama happens for one reason: the
>country's geographical position. It's a path to market for sought-after
>products," Panama's deputy drug prosecutor Patricio Candanedo told Reuters
>in an interview.
>
>"Drugs go toward North America, where they find their greatest market in
>the United States, while the large quantity of arms that remained in
>Central America head south to where the present armed conflict is."
>
>Bellicose peace dividend
>When peace accords ended a proxy war between Nicaragua's U.S.-backed
>Contras and Cuban-trained Sandinista forces in 1990, more than 80,000
>combatants were demobilized in a country ranked among the three poorest in
>the hemisphere.
>
>While former factions handed over thousands of weapons to authorities, some
>estimates say around 50,000 remained in the hands of ex-combatants as
>negotiable assets in the peace process that promised land and credit.
>Nicaraguan police recently pegged the figure at only 5,000.
>
>"It can't be denied that in the 1980s there were a lot of arms, not just in
>Nicaragua but throughout Central America, but we are hunting them down,"
>Nicaraguan armed forces chief Gen. Javier Carrion told reporters last
>month.
>
>Kept in clandestine arsenals, the weapons are widely available for sale
>both in Nicaragua and neighboring Honduras and Costa Rica. In Honduras,
>from where 15,000 Contras fought their hit-and-run cross-border war
>throughout the 1980s, police say AK-47 assault rifles are cheap and
>plentiful.
>
>"Nicaraguan Contras sold thousands of rifles and pistols in Honduras for
>between $70 and $100, and unfortunately many of them fell into criminal
>hands," police spokesman Hector Mejia told Reuters.
>
>In Costa Rica, dubbed the "Switzerland of Central America" for its
>decades-old democratic government, police say arms buried in hidden caches
>on farmland along the northern frontier with Nicaragua can be bought for
>$100, with 15,000 rounds of ammunition thrown in for purchases of more than
>100.
>
>While El Salvador's bloody 12-year conflict ended with 1992 peace accords
>that transformed the 8,000-strong Farabundo Marti National Liberation
>(FMLN) guerrillas into a left-wing opposition party, police there say
>former weapons are readily available on a local black market.
>
>"In former times there were a lot of arms around throughout Salvador and
>some people took advantage of the situation. (But) the black market mostly
>supplies criminals at the national level," National Civilian Police
>spokesman Jose Tobar said.
>
>Enough guns for an infantry
>In the year to September, Panama police seized enough Central American
>weapons en route to Colombia to arm an infantry battalion, including 362
>Soviet-made AK-47 assault rifles, dozens of U.S.-made M-16s and Israeli
>Galils, and 427 pistols of various calibers.
>
>In four operations alone last month near Panama City and the Atlantic port
>of Colon, police impounded almost 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) of explosives,
>plus machine guns, grenades, Russian antipersonnel mines and Chinese rocket
>launchers.
>
>The raids, which netted above 125,000 rounds of ammunition and led to the
>arrest of 16 suspects, including Panamanians, Colombians and one Venezuelan
>national, also found insurgency manuals and, in one case, cassette tapes
>with rousing Nicaraguan guerrilla anthems.
>
>Security forces in Panama and Colombia say much of Central America's
>leftover arsenal makes its way south to Colombian rebels by boat along the
>poorly guarded Caribbean coastline. Once there, it is sold for cash at a
>500-percent markup, or bartered for drugs.
>
>Weapons are also smuggled into Panama from Costa Rica across the border at
>Paso Canoas in trucks, from where they are hauled south to safe houses,
>police say. Some continue to Colombia by boat, while lesser quantities are
>hauled east across the Darien Gap's open jungle frontier into Colombia.
>
>While regional security forces have played down the scale of the illicit
>north-south arms trade in recent months, some countries are now calling for
>international cooperation to interrupt the flow of weapons southward.
>
>"This (arms trafficking) is a regional problem, which also involves El
>Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama," Costa Rican Security Minister
>Rogelio Ramos said recently. "It's a problem that we all have to address."

Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.32.177)

iiiiwanabe...
And don't for get the Cheyenne's "March of Tears"!!

Bud Montague...
Darrel Holland can be reached at "Holland's Gunsmithing"...
at 541-439-5155... he has one of the best reputations in the country, and he's very easy to talk to.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 03:33:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.137)

Happy Birthday, Marines (Including two members of my family.), and God Bless all Veterans. My flag is up for you, and my heart goes out to you. Without you we wouldn't enjoy the freedom we have in this country.
 

PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 03:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.42)

Laying in a hide playing host to swarms of tropical insects as it rained for eleven hours a day?

Ahh, the glamor.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:43:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:47:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 05:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.111)

Election Prayer: Oh Lord,Can we please have Reagan back?
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 06:15:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.206.37.145)

As of now, I'm severly antagonized. I thought it was just good form for the communists to wait until AFTER they were sworn in to recommend a dismantling of our Constitution. Seems Hitlery doesn't want to wait for her turn. But in all good faith, I will not give a complete and total call to arms quite yet LOL.

And to you lawyers out there, is there anything *I* can do as a citizen in the way of a personal law suit against an elected official if he breaks his oath of office? Seriously. I'll pay the bill if I can have some of these fetid pieces of porcine excrement imprizoned on charges.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
2+ feet of snow, guess it's a good time to load more 5.56 NATO, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 06:26:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.232)

Just a little vision of Redneck utopia for you all out there.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 12:29:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:03:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.107)

Lets invite Bravo the brewmaster to set up his international headquarters there, would definitely make the dream complete!

Could also be the international headquarters for; Norcal, Undude Sling Co., Bolt's Fishing Tackle Service; and a zillion other "outdoor friendly" companies!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:09:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)

SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are there enough people here that would be willing to develop the idea of a "shooter's paradise" somewhere in these U.S.? There has to be enough affordable swamp or desert yucky land that nobody wants that we could get for a song! WHAT YOU GUYS THINK??????????
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:15:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)

Fly-specks in the election: Al Gwhore best watch his back if he pursues this strategy of cherry picking which counties to micro-recount.

We MUST keep the electoral college in place. Gore did NOT win hardly ANY states. He merely carried the large cities within states to take the whole thing. If we went to popular vote, candidates would only campaign in Los Angeles, S.F, New York and Philly and tehy would take the whole enchilada. The rest of the nation be damned.

Look at the extreme voter skewing here in Philadelphia for example. Lots of talk here about Dems registering mental patients,homeless, etc. (their typical "informed voter" base). In South Philly if you're a Repub, you're dead man walking.

Bush lost ALL of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, just due to Philly. And if Penn went the other way, we aren't having this discussion, we're out celerating Bush as new president.

SAVE OUR CONSITUTION

(Soap box mode off)
Good day

Doug <dmorisoli@worldnet.at.net>
PA, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 16:27:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.101.132.168)

Bush has an obligation to step up to the plate. I will support his effort through work and contributions. I don't shoot, or threaten to shoot, people. I don't believe in Utopia. All Utopias carry with them The Gulag.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 20:43:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.75)

I looked at the confusing ballot and fully agree that it might confuse some voters (wink, wink). In fact, I could understand if some Bush supporters might see the big "3" next to Bush's name and assume that they needed to count down to punch the third hole. I can see this leading to a situation where some clean Gore votes, were actually INTENDED to be Bush votes, but the "3" was confusing. I would suggest that any of my fellow Bush supporters, who also happen to live in PB county, might want to think about whether they ACTUALLY voted for Bush, or if maybe Gore got their vote. Hmmmmm Maybe all of PB should be tossed out (w/ no re-vote). Gee, I wonder what THAT would mean...
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 21:31:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.238.250)

Well, I reckon everybody including me is about fed up with politics right now. Kinda like waiting for water to boil. I sent Bush and Cheney an email today telling them to get in there fight to win, not to wussy out. Done bout all I can do. I'm through with posting or even pondering it until somebody simply says who won.

We probably need to go back to shooting subjects again. More fun talking about "spindrift" than politics!

Bolt, feeling like having another Bravo Brew, OUT!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 21:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.238)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Used up about 7 years of my life in the last few days... in the very confused, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 22:32:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.56)

Patron 'Lito: political spin (drift) is always to the left. It comes from the media (medium) that the stuff is flying (through). It's surprising how many carvile "long range crap throwers" there are running about. As for me, count me in the bunkered and cammoed camp LOL
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Insert treasonous politician here ->, Hangmans noose and gallows, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:17:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.180)

SERIOUSLY!

sorry, i know we ain't 'sposed to do that. he he he he he he he
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
but seriously dude, really., USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.195)

Just a little vision of Redneck utopia for you all out there.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:50:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

These are only approximations, however I believe we must now re-think the theory of "drifitng while spinning" in relationship to tactical distances of <= 112 meters.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 01:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.238)

75% of the Jewish vote? Is that published? I haven't seen anything regarding that but it's probably true, especially here in Palm Beach County. How? Simple, most Jews are democrats and Leiberman is the first Jew ever picked for the "heartbeat" job. If you were Jewish, who would you vote for?

The problem is that most Jews have gotten fat, dumb and happy living in the Banana Republic. As far as "never again," the only Jews you'll see espousing that doctrine live in Israel or belong to the Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, a decidely right wing, militant organization that most Jews shy away from. And before anyone gets rightously indignant, I am not prejudiced. I work and socialize with quite a few of them, so....shut....up.

A dear lady at work (whom I refer to as my Jewish mother) was talking with me the other day about the possibility of Algwhore taking the election to the courts to "get his way." I explained to her that the Constitution did not allow that. She thought that it was his "right" to do so because she didn't like Bush and the hell with the Constitution! Excuse me? So what about the right of assembly, of religion, of speech, of unwarranted search and seizure, etc, etc? Don't these mean anything to you anymore? Silence.

The Jews are, in my opinion, forgetting their own history, now that they too are on the fed's dole.
 

Andre -

How dare you come in to our great state and try to tell us how to act like morons?! Just where do you get off, dude? I've been here 18 years and I'm just now getting the fine points down, although I still have a long way to go - I screwed up my ballot - I voted for the guy I really wanted to vote for. Damn!

You need to pay your dues, man. Go spend some time in Morrison's Cafeteria and have Jello spilled all over you! Stand in the checkout line at Publix and get your ankles smashed from behind! THEN you can start showing us the errors of our ways.

Hey, wait a minute. You're not even in the right county. You're in Broward, not Palm Beach! DAMN INTERLOPER! Double Damn! HA! ;-)

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
LOOK! IT'S JESSE JACKOFF!, FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 01:52:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.31)

Just back from a day of spectacularly unsuccessful Rooseveldt Elk Hunting. Don't know where the beasties went to, but then our Pacific Coast Rain Forest and nasty terrain don't help much. Hell, I even dropped into the "hole from hell" thinking they might be holed up there...no joy.

Terry, I agree that the states run there own voting, but believe me there are Federal laws in place that allow Billy Boy to null and void the election...why do you think he has been smiling so much lately. Maybe he KNOWS he's not out of a job!

Actually, the whole mess is just that. The problem is that we don't know what the reality is...as we get only selected bits and pieces from both sides. I'd like it settled so we can decide on what our course of action needs to be...

I'm ready to do what the rest of the crew looks like they're doing...getting ready to "bunker down".

Interesting conversation today with Steve Nelson, Secretary of the American Custom Guncrafters Guild. We were both carrying non magnums for elk. In my case a .35 Whelan Improved and Steve was using an '06. Both customs. We discussed people buying "technological solutions" to percieved hunting needs. A good example would be people jumping on the new Remington Ultra Mag Bandwagon. Do the cartridges really perform better and are they needed? Our take was that theres no real difference between a .300 Winch and the .300 RUM. At least not that an animal can tell. Ballistically, you get a 100 or so more FPS, more recoil, shortened barrel life, etc. NOT a good trade-off.

I hunt with non magnums/unbelted cartridges. Note the "move" in that direction. Belts are worthless and unneeded, but have become what defines "magnum". Case in point is the 6.5 Rem Mag. ANYBODY using it today? Ballistics are not as good as my 6.5 X .284 which is unbelted.

The cartridges we have that work have history...The .270, 30/06, .35 Whelan, 300 H&H, 375 H&H, etc. Do we need more? On the other hand it does sell rifles...

Frankly, the .308 will fill the bill for 99% of what I do and hunt, provided watashi wa does his part...

Happy USMC B-day to all you Marines.

To those that have served: Happy Veterans Day. Your sacrifices, past and present, are appreciated.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 02:24:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.114)

Sir Wes: I agree whole heartedly about the magnums. I took a page from Theodore Roosevelt, he thought that the 30-40 Krag was a great round for all but the largest of American game, for which he preferred the 30-06. As of this point, I can't say that I've ever run across any game wearing kevvies, so I will ditto his findings. I hunted with a 30-06 for YEARS, and then, after relocating to an area where the vegitation was more dense, I went to the 30-40. Great round, get's my approval 100%! I don't need no stinkin belts! Rims maybe though ;-)

Here's something interesting, it's a map of where 50% of the popular vote lives, by county: http://www.millenicom.com/patriot/popvote.gif You can compare that to the USA TODAY county by county vote result at: http://www.millenicom.com/patriot/map.jpg INTERESTING!!!

And now for the moment of curiousity. I did some research on the 7.5mm Schmidt Rubin (7.5mm Swiss), and it it's REALLY close to a 308X284. So why are the velocities so low? In this source, from a 30.7" bbl, they got a whopping 2500 fps from a 180 grainer. That's about 300 fps less than a 30-06 from a 22" barrel. I know something HAS to be up. Was the 7.5 data very light loads or what? It's GOT to be more powerful than the 308, right?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
peeling the banana republic, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 02:47:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.180)

Moe, Moe, Moe, Only 18 years? You're just a babe in the big swamp. Hang around, Polytics in cracker land just get better and better all of the time. We are the next Kalifornistan dontcha know! Why do you think I moved to the panhandle. To get away from all of the liberal kooks that have migrated to central and south Florida. Every time y'all flush your privies down in Lala land, Lake Okeechobee drops a foot. Maybe we could cross Gators with them there Raptor dinosaurs....the only people that would survive would be people with Guns!!

Damn I like that idea.
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Been all over the state, Fl., USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 04:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.70)

(disclaimer: this was not a scientific test, it did not harm sheep, and it posed no environmental threat, and coming from a near idiot should be taken as it came from the source.)
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 05:39:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.7.54)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
needing a laugh, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 10:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

**Here is a question for the REAL gunsmiths that visit here**
.308 Win is suppose to be 2.8"something" OAL. As we all know a Rem. 700 has alot more freebore than that and if I reload my rounds to be within 0.020 of the lands then there is NO WAY I can load the suckers into the mag/clip/whatever. OK, IS there ANY way to solve this without spending major $$$ ??? I have a VSSF and a 700 Laminated that will do 1/2-3/4 MOA all the way to 600 IF I do my part. Neither rifle has 2,000 rounds through it yet and I can't see buying a new barrel yet. Is it possible to reset the barrel ?? Or something ??

It aggravates me to no end to have to load to "spec" when I know I can get more accuracy by seating longer but when I do that the rifle becomes a single shot. Sure it's easier on the checkbook but ...

Last but not least...anyone know of a supplier for Sellier & Bellot MATCH .308 ?? I would like to try some. Hope the shooters at the Rifle Match at English Range at Ft. Benning today are having "Fun" with the "Sphinx" targets !!!! heh heh heh I have blisters from cutting all that cardboard !!
Thanks
OUT HERE

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 13:55:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.148.218)

Had same problem with my PSS when I first got it. After dorking around with it for about a year, sent it to smith, who trued receiver and bolt, set barrel back 0.9 inches, recut the chamber, and recrowned barrel. Damn thing punched .2's and .3's consistently. Barrel still fouled like a dog after a Mexican dinner though. Finally dumped it for a Hart 1:10. Original set back and cleanup cost $175.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater Hey I just found more hidden ballots!!, FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:23:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.205.193)

Will: We are on the same page on Gregory packs. They're good.

Wes: Can I keep my .338 for hunting elk? Other than that goofy belt, it's really just a .30-06 on steroids. With any kind of center hit, it brings 'em down right smartly. That saves arguments over whose elk it is and you don't have to pass up shots you would with a .30-06. With 250 gr partitions, you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Sounds about like your .35.
 
 
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:23:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.30)

What Bill0294 said. Set back, rechamber and have the throat cut to your specs. My 700 PSS is the same way, but I have decided to live with .6 MOA untill I can approach that performance under field conditions, though I have a lathe and most other tooling to do it any time I actually *have* the time to do it. In the meantime, perhaps a recrown and looking at the bedding will help you. It certainly did in my case.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:46:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.205.236)

Didn't mean to upset folks with my comments on belted mags...;-)

Will and Tom, PSS freebore excessive, but they do that so thier barrels will shoot any bullets. I suspect Remington uses the same .308 reamer specs for all thier guns. As noted, if you load to have your bullet just off the lands you're not going to be able to stuff them in the magazine.

I load all my match stuff to 2.800". As you noted having a .6 PSS is great, but until you can shoot to that standard you really don't need anything better. Note: Check the crown. Most can benefit from re-crowning.

Re-crowning: Boots Obermeyer and I have had some serious discussions on this. Most say an 11 degree or 22 degree is best. Boots did EXTENSIVE testing and uses a target style crown and breaks it with a
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett(By God), Oregon, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:23:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.53)

Re-crowning: As I said Boots Obermeyer breaks the rifling with a
60 DEGREE BEVEL. That is what turned out to work best in all his testing. We won't get into our discussion about gas dispersion around the base of the bullet! I used a 45 degree on my M40A1 clone and it works great. In this case, more seems better.

CDC...keep you .338 Magnum. It's a GREAT cartridge. You didn't see my post to Bravo762. I told him there were only two belted magnums worth a hoot...the .338 Winchester and the .375 H & H. You got a good one...

On that note I think I'll duck and seek cover. The rest of the belted magnum guys are probably locking and loading right now.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.53)

Flyshooter
FlyShooter <Byoung0971@aol.com>
FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.171.113.238)

O.K. What is so wrong about my 300 winmag, except it only gives about 5 loads per brass? It has great ballistics (which can be considered nothing more than a 308 magnum), and it is very accurate.

Most people only shoot 308 because they don't really need a magnum and that is perfectly understandable.

But why is the 300 winmag such a lousy round in your opinion?

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:11:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.4.162)

MOE- I know what you mean about a certain segment of the voters,
and I'm not predjudiced either! REALLY!! I think that they
only vote for what self-serving issues that their "leaders"
tell them to, and not what's best for the country. I wonder
how many people know that they are directly responsible for
the prescence of the Russian Mafia here in the US ? It seems
that after the breakup of the Soviet Union many influential
members of the Jewish community lobbied strongly with
politicians like Liberman, Feinstein, Chuckie Schumer and their
ilk to get the INS to relax immigration standards and get these
thugs to the US on the pretext of "religious persecution".
And now look what they're up to!

I'm praying for a Bush victory, then I'll have a BUSCH

ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.77.239)

The .300 Winch wasn't mentioned because I was talking about hunting rounds. I should have been more clear. I consider the .300 an accuracy round. While it works well for elk I have other choices.
MY BIGGEST COMPLAINT with belted magnums is the variences in belt thickness from manufacturer to manufacturer. Size your brass on the shoulders datum line and you'll be OK. Other than that you get short case life.

The other problem is short barrel life. Many shoot out in 1200-1500 rounds where peak accuracy is concerned. That and being a whimp I don't like the recoil.

My 6.5 X .284 does what the .300 does with 190's and with the recoil of the .308. Case and barrel life is undertermined at this point, but we expect several thousand rounds

Flyshooter, on your .308 ADL...if you rebarrel go to the heavier/thicker barrel lug from Badger Ordinance. I also recomment a match tube and new stock. The barrel taper on the ADs is not set up for accuracy, but may do until you can upgraded. You'll want to glass bed, too.

Kind Regards,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 21:12:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.11)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64817-2000Nov11.html
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 21:21:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.58)

On setting back the orignal 700 barrel... if you're going to spend the money for the labor, go ahead and replace the barrel with something fine... otherwise most of that labor is lost... these original Rem barrels are $18 to $35 dollar barrels. The difference in grouping will not be worth it, and there may be no difference AT ALL!!

Get something good, and knock your socks off!!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.56)

Alan: I was just looking at the 7.5 Swiss because by all logic, it should be a winner. By my calibrated eyeball, it appears to have approximately the same or more case capacity than the 30-06, but in a more theoretically accurate and efficient package. I wouldn't use it in something that had an unsupported ramp, but I was kind of thinking on a Rem 700. Yes, it's a true .308 diameter, according to my source. I'm thinking it was downloaded to use in that rifle, but in a more modern design it ought to be a real keeper. But Redding doesn't make BR dies for it, so it's really just a mental exercise at this point.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LET IT BEGIN HERE!, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.163)

Isn't an "accurate" round placed correctly the key to a sucessfull harvest of game? I do agree on the .375 H&H, make mine a Safari Grade Belgian Browning please. :-)

I believe the .300RUM is capable of just a wee bit more than 100 fps gain over a .300 Win. Mag. I am currently working on a CONSISTANT 190 GR @ 3200 fps load, within pressure specs, and believe that in a quality aftermarket barrel with slightly tighter chamber and leade, magical things may begin to happen. Time will tell.

Throat erosion is the price you pay for the dividends of flatter trajectory and F-A-S-T-E-R & larger payload. Last year it was whining about Varget being "potentially" erosive on the leade, this year its pooh-pooh the Belted Mags.
 

Dope It, Dial IT, DUMP IT!
 
 

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.76)

McGrath
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, Missouri (First to ever elect a dead man. Wasted our most sacred gift. Votes!!!!!!), USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

Evidently my wallet is slimmer (than others) and I have better ways to spend my limited budget than drop a barrel that already does a FINE and I mean F I N E job. I just wanted to know the feasibility & cost to have the barrel set back/whateverthehell ya call it so the freebore isn't so bloody long. So I can load 5 rounds at one time and rapid fire. Is that asking so much ??

Think I'll just advance to the rear and let the big spenders explain while I mutter and plot devious deeds.

OUT friggin HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:42:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.176)

Evidently my wallet is slimmer (than others) and I have better ways to spend my limited budget than drop a barrel that already does a FINE and I mean F I N E job. I just wanted to know the feasibility & cost to have the barrel set back/whateverthehell ya call it so the freebore isn't so bloody long. So I can load 5 rounds at one time and rapid fire. Is that asking so much ??

Think I'll just advance to the rear and let the big spenders explain while I mutter and plot devious deeds.

OUT friggin HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:46:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.176)

Later,
Will
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.176)

I use a Mk4 M3 scope but use 175 SMK handloaded to about 2500 FPS. Since my cam is for the 168 SMK I knew it would not be the same.

What I did to resolve the problem is figured out the load I would use and chronographed it. Then put that data into a ballistic program. I used 1 minute clicks for the scope data in the program. I took this data to my scope and started counting clicks up from a 100 Yard zero.

This is what I came up with:
100 1
200 2
300 3
400 4
500 5
600 -1 clicks from 6
700 -2 clicks from 7
800 -3 clicks from 8
900 -4 clicks from 9
1000 -5 clicks from 10

This data was written on small slip of paper and taped into my scope cover so it is visible when open.

I have shot my rifle with this data to 1000 Yards on a KD range and it works well. Though the scope does not allow for precise hit it will hit a man sized target to 1000 yards.

I took me a while to figure this out so I wanted to share it to save someone else the trouble.

Using this type of logic any cam would work for any load just the difference would need to be recorded. Better yet would be to stamp a blank cam with your pet load data.

Keep Shooting, Allan
Allan <Falshooter42@yahoo.com>
Ut, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:55:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.130.4.100)

I also got a line on some Portugues .308 match at the SHOT show but again could not get a response from the 1-only in USA source.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 00:26:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.19)

I have several AR's, one of which is a heavy barrel Colt CAR, with 1 in 9 twist. Unlike any of my other AR's, this CAR will not shoot heavy (68 gr Hornady/69 gr Sierra) bullets into 3" at 100 yards. The amazing thing is that it will shoot 52 grain Hornady HPBT just fine; about 3/4" at 100 yds. (Like all of my other rifles, the CAR has a good trigger, and a free floating handguard).

When I first encountered this problem, I not only tried my favoride handloads (H-335, WW-748, Varget, 2230), but I fired factory ammo too, including Federal and Black Hills Match, and Hornady.

Results were the same: Lousy accuracy with the heavier bullet. Note that the bullets are not hitting the flash hider, either.

Any comments out there? Most of the responses I've received to date revolve around replacing the barrel.

Thanks in advance for any replies.
 
 

Mike D <mdodson@navi.net>
Lake Oswego, OR, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.222.143.37)

Well, yes and no. lookie. the money, like $150-$175, is total labor that is lost on a $18 (cromoly) to $35 (if stainless) barrel. When you set it back, you still hae a cheap POS of a barrel, but with a good (maybe) chamber. Better that even money, it won't shoot ant better... What the hell kinda dumb stuff is that?? ;((

Send your barreled action to a good outfit, like Douglas, or one of the many good guyz, and have them do it for you. They do it better, faster, and you wind up with a good shootin piece... you can even specify what throat you want... and they will match the contour.

Now, as to the money... will they do it for the same money as it would cost to have the old one set back... no... but it won't be too much more, and you will have a really good barrel, and it will clean up slickie quick! ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:32:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.74)

Pete, the 300 Ultra Mag is about 100fps over the 300 Win. I can get 3100 out of my 300 win with 190's and 2850 with 220's with ease. I like the Dope it Dial It Dump it. Now where have I heard that?

Bored with the election crap and can not beleave it has been allowed to go on so long. Bush is President! I wont except any other! This crap that if all the guys that voted for Nader had voted for Gore, Gore would be President. Well if all the guys that voted for Gore had voted for Nader, Nader would be President. Bottom line is Bush won lets get on with it.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:34:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.191)

You don't know what you've missed by not living anywhere else. I grew up in Taxachusetts where the Kennedys hold Court. Man, them was fun years! Florida just has a more, er, "diverse" group of morons living here. :-))
 

Andre -

You gotta admit, things have changed here a bit, huh? HA! LOL!
 

A Shooting Question!!!!

I am using Federal 168 gr GMM to break in and sight in my Rem 700 PSS. I was under the assumption that .308 and 7.62 are equivalent rounds. I know that .223 and 5.56 are not exactly equals - I use only 5.56 in my Colt. How much difference is there between the .308 and the 7.62 cartridges? Would I notice any benefits to using one over the other? And who manufactures 7.62? Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall seeing any 7.62 at the gun shop.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
JESSSSEEEE!!!!!!! JESSSSEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!, FL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.168)

Just got done cleaning my custom .35 Whelan Improved. Put it away and arranged the safe a bit. The rifles most accessible are now my M40A1 clone, the Chandler Sniper 6.5 X .284, and my .308 Rem Varmint Special. Guess you know what I'll be playing with this winter.

Have had several posts about my comments on magnums. I'll stand by them. On the other hand you guys that are using them or testing new calibers please share. That's how we learn from each other.

My winter project is stocking my custom 1909 Argentine small ring Mauser in .284 Winchester. It's gonna be a beaut! When completed I'll try to take some .jpg's and post them to you.

Looks like it's gonna be coyote's and crows from here on out. Anything to keep primed. You guys got an good recipes for them...?

If any of you are going to be in the western central oregon area give me a call 541-453-4054 (home) or 541-715-5915 at work. Will be happy to set up a get together and spend time.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:49:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.72)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:17:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)

Wrote to Moses at the NRA today.

Wrote to my two senators expressing my outrage as to how my states electoral votes were stolen in one city and asked for a recount of that county.

Recommend to you:
www.snipercountry.com/IRSniper.html
(Infra Red Detection and the Sniper)
www.geocities.com/pentagon/Quarters/2116/camie.htm
(Camie stick alone is not enough)

The election is in the process of being stolen going before a Democratic judge in the AM for U guys not following the flow.

Gentlemen the shit has hit the fan. Are we going to have represenative/national goverment or Communist/socialist/united nations/world goverment.

I personally swore an oath to defend the United States of America against enemies foreign and DOMESTIC some thirty years ago.
I've kept up my skills. I put on my cold zero today.

The warriors of America have an obligation to stabilize this society for your children and my children

LORD LET THIS PASS ME
 

But in the words of the founders

DON'T TREAD ON ME
SGT. SCHULTZ <bravo762@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.4)

I don't really appreciate his sense of humor. But this doesn't surprise me, as it was Perecles that said "if you speak logic to a fool, he looks upon you as an idiot".
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
I hate it when folks don't have the backbone to sign someone other than MY name!, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 04:23:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.195)

Now he's looking for a rifle and wants a .50 bmg. His budget is about $4,000. Any suggestions? His main use for it would be putting holes in oil drums at long range.
pete robertson <abelaird_knight@yahoo.com>
colorado springs, Colorado, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 05:00:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.227.178.120)

Bravo; would that be your twin brother duffy? Perhaps he is in a parallel universe? He seems to have the same problems we do here?

On those 300's don't waste too much time trying to make the .300 Win mag a 300 weatherby .. you'll be disappointed with the accuracy anyway. The variation in cases do make a difference. That's why I always advocate fire forming them and reloading with optimum case length. The Ultra Mag should eliminate the problem. Many people think that the belted case is superior, I just don't belong in the same bar with them. I know this stuff is fun but don't get too far into the bizzare if you want a practical rifle. The Wildcat bugs will eat you up if you get too far out. Ammo and case problems will eventually make you wish you'd stayed with the standards but don't let me spoil your fun ...

Rich; the 20" may be better for accuracy and speed. I believe it's a magic number for AR's. Carbines are cute and have their place but my experience is that the 20" out perform enough that it's worth it if you want accuracy and range. Something about the harmonics at 20" I dunno for sure?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 05:44:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

check this rifle out !

http://www.amp-ts.com/DSR%20No%201.htm

looks like I have a new toy on my wish list for christmas.

t
click here for a look at the AMP <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 09:31:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.156)

I think I've counted the ballots correctly and the outcome seems to be in favor of the .308 & 175 BTHP & 1:10 twist. I'm about to have one of my rigs rebarreled so stop me if I'm wrong here.

I took Andy to see "Charlies Angels" last night. It was a good thing.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 10:00:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.31)

FWIW:
Dope It - Dial It - Dump It is to the best of my memory a Un-Dude original from last years Roster Wars about something that ended up being inane, benign, oh WHATEVER.
 
 
 

Ofta nurse a deviated septum garnered finding out what a twenty year youth advantage over Geezerdom gains in the ring..........

Cha-Ouch!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 11:44:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.52)

Thanks on the .308/7.62 query. It appears to be a case of semantics, huh? If we're just talking about different loadings, I'm not concerned. I don't handload, yet! In my Colt AR15, I use the Win Q3131A or IMI M193 only. These are apparently loaded hotter than some of the local stuff and more importantly my gun likes them. My POI with either is nearly identical which saves me from having to brain fart with a re-zero if I switch. I initially tried a bunch of different brands and the POI were all over the place. Real BS!

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Recount Central, FL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 11:59:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.181)

SSG Adam G. Scott and all military: Thanks for your service to our country. Your work is respected and apreciated.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 12:48:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.86)

CDC....Thank you for the remark in serving. I have 8 in and just re-enlisted for 6 more. Running a range tommorow in Martinsburg, West VA. Damn I love shooting free ammo.....
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
Severn, Md, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.184.58)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.53)

Is that "THE" famous "Sgt. Schultz", the bumbling asshole idiot from the TV series???
Find your balls and backbone, and stand up like a man with your own e-mail address, not a whimpering, skulking, faggot, that steals someone elses... the e-mail address "" belongs to one of our regulars, and I think he's not too pleased with you right now!!

Pete Robertson...

For a 50 BMG, look at the AR-50. After a year of looking around, this puppy R-U-L-E-S... the gun, good (MK4 or B&L Tac) scope, and the little crap, will leave you with enough change from his $4k, that he can take you to "Wendy's" for a Bacon Cheeseburger.

I just ordered two of them (one for a friend)... go here.

http://www.armalite.com/

... and poke around.
 

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.76)

On setting back a factory bbl. The major cost of a match bbl is the labor so if you want a match set up get a new bbl and have it installed. If you go with a recut original keep in mind the following You Can Not Polish A Turd!

Wes, I agree the 300'as are accuracy rounds. If I was hunting something too big for a 30-06 I would step up to atleast a 338 Win. Big holes make more damage.

CDC and others on the 16 versus 20 AR's. I agree the 20" will shoot better at distance than the 16", but for me I prefer the 16 for carry, entry ands as a second weapon to my sniper weapon. If I used the AR for primary in a typical North America enviornment the 20 would win hands down, but with a sniper rifle on my back I want a 16 light bbl in my hands. Kind of a very longrange pistol.

Pablito, an AR50. Dude that thing will shoot very well but you need a Dolly to carry it, 42lbs without a scope or ammo. The Barrett 99 is 23lbs and shoots under one moa. also. Once you strat messing with 50's your bank balance will go to hell.LOL

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:41:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

http://opinionjournal.com/

Check out Robert Bartley and John Fund. It's important.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 15:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.110)

Sure it's heavy... I figure with a pair of "Max-50's", and a scope, M-2 bi-pod etc, it'll run just shy of 50 pounds...
... but think about it, I can drop the membership to the gym, and just press the riffle 10 times every morning, and I'll look like "Big Arnie S" by next year's Storm match ;)
... and, I won't need my shoulder blade fused, when I have a few years on it...
... and I won't need a Grayhound ticket to get back to the range after shooting the puppy, (like SOMEONE we both know!!).

I'm looking forward to it... it'll be a long 5 months :((

I'm gonna put a Mk4-M3 for up to 1400yds, and a B&L Tac on it for REAL distance... (got the 50 moa tapered base;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 16:28:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.76)

I find it interesting that Chandler is building sniper rifles in 6.5 X 284. What are thier thoughts on the cartridge?
I am curious, is your rifle built on a long action, or can a short action be configured to accept the 6.5 X 284 and still be magizine fed?
I think it a little funny that certain people on this site hack on you for experimenting with the 6.5 X 284, saying it is a nonstandard caliber. When these same people also shoot other calibers that were at one time nonstandard.

All for now.

Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.20.172.77)

Before you declare New Jersey as the "uber alles" armpit of the east, take a look at Mass and CT (lito's state). Notice all the blue???

The voting district I live in exceeded 70% in it's attendance, and voted overwhelmingly republican. We are just outstripped by the suburbs of Camden and Trenton, which are notorious as HUGE welfare cities (I read somewhere that Camden's population was 2/3 welfare recipients)....I think it's important to note that the Northern commuter counties of New Jersey, the ones full of New York City "yuppies" voted Republican.... CT cannot say that...

Perhaps the only people voting pro-democrat in New Jersey are the ones getting handouts and entitlements...

http://www.millenicom.com/patriot/map.jpg - thanks Bravo, for the link
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

CDC - Thanks for the editorial links. They're well worth the time to read.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
nofingernailsleft, onlyinthe, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

Patron UnDude: I'm with you 100%. The 20" is easier to hit with, I think it's due to the longer sight radius, which is why my 16" has the standard full length sight radius. That having been said, if it's not for close in, I'm gonna ditch it and pick up a M-14. Long range pistol, you know, that really is a quite accurate descriptor!

And speaking of M-14's, talked to Geoff today. Seems that he *JUST HAPPENS* to have a pre-ban M1A Springfield Inc stripped receiver lying around. Now, in a corner, with my name on it ;-) It'll be built to extra light status, with a good barrel and a worked over US GI synthetic stock. It's about time I replaced the battle rifle slot in the safe. My guess is that it'll be well under MOA, and I know it'll be filled with all premium US GI parts. Battle rifle, here I come! HA!

Patron 'Lito: Thanks for the stand-up, probably some 16 year old kid wanting to stir stuff up or antagonize. I think he would be surprised to see how much I don't really care. Minor annoyance at best.

CDC: half assed revolutionary? I don't suppose you've caught that nationwide there's been a documented 900% increase in ammo sales over the last several days, have you? Ask Cory how many CASES he sold yesterday. Basically, there are those that understand what's going on, and those who for some reason either don't listen or refuse to. I'm not a "half assed revolutionary", as I keep it in the system. For those that don't want to participate though (or quit participating after they leave their ballot in the box) then they have no right whatsoever to gripe if the worst case scenario should come to pass.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, ready to rot, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 18:55:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/

And it pathetic... gore got the libral coastal cities and NY, CT, and MA... Bush got the rest of the WHOLE contry!!

If we give up the Electoral college, we'll loose the constitution.

UnDude...
What's this crap about carring it for 20 klicks... whatdaya think "Spotters" are for?

Ken has the right idea... "AR-50 Towed"... I ordered mine with optional wheels!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 19:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.56)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 21:06:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.52)

Now for a true American Patriot: check out
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_keyes/20001113_xcake_the_founde.shtml
The founders' wisdom by Alan Keyes
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
peeling the banana republic, formerly called the, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 21:17:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

ALSO:
Colt prohibits ammonia-based copper cleaners in their CAR-A3 H-BAR
ELITE (Accurized) Rifle with the 24" stainless bbl. Does anyone know
why? H-S Precision mentions nothing about this in the sheet that
came with my Custom Classic Sharpshooter Stainless .300WM. BTW- if
JR is lurking-this thing REALLY shoots (#MO604-8)!

Watching as the Country is being stolen, and not knowing what can
be done about it. Not any trust in judges, lawyers, and the courts!

Alan
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 22:17:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.142)

I use Hoppe's #9... you can leave it in the barrel for days... smells good, works good, must be good ;))

I have a Colt flat-top HB Match w/24" stainless, and got no warning about ammonia stuff... but I got it whan they first came out, and maybe something has shown up in the years following it's release, that's a problem... anyone else have info on ammonia in Colt stainless guns??

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 23:19:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.54)

Did pick up a Benchmade 710 Axis folder and it has to be one of the sweetest folders that I have placed my paws on. Try one out and then consider the sticker shock. I had already sold a couple to pay for it so I just consider it a trade.

Well it is now bambi season and I just don't feel the fire this year. Felt the same last year. Gonna go for a couple of days anyway just to say I did. Hopefully this yucky feeling will disappear soon. Getting to where I just like paper targets. Hell I usually only end up helping clean everybody else's deer anyway. Also getting to be too many crazies in the woods, even around our lease. In another month can set up my range anyway, that will be good. Full 1400 yards clear and and 1400 acres to stalk on. Up and down shooting to boot. Getting the time of year when I get fresh road kill dear calls from the folks that live on the main road down the street.

I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!

Bolt, OUT and ABOUT!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 23:36:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.213)

I decided to get a Remington 700 VS in .308, a Leupold 3.5-10 LR-M3, and Badger Ordnance rings and mount.

Off I went to the local shop owned by a friend of mine and waited and waited while he called all his distributors.

None of his distributors has the 700 VS.

What gives? Did all the hunters buy them up already this year? Or did Remington discontinue them? While waiting, I picked up a 1999 Rem catalog, paged through it, and found the 700 VS - listed in Left Hand Only. Ugg!! I aint no leftie!

Help!!
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 00:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Per your question on the BiggerHammer board. You can realistically expect 1500-1800m hard target hits. The wind really plays hell on the 50 projectile. The BC for the mil-stuff is terrible. I went to Benning a couple months ago to repair the Sniper School guns, went to Red Cloud range and hit the 1800m M113 a consistant 9 for 10 using MK211 Raufoss.

Have fun with your 50!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 01:42:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.76.148.37)

Yup... I got "The Fever". My last exposure to a 50 was a custom shellholder rifle, and I didn't like it a bit... kicked you into next week... three rounds, and you went home (with buzzing sounds in your head)!

I wanted a good turn bolt "Mauser" type, with a "BFMB"!! (Big Friggin' Muzzle Break!!).
I saw a AR-50 at my dealers, and he let me play (as in take it apart), and I fell in luv... placed an order for one, and called him back and ordered one for my friend (the shellholder gun guy).

I'll be loading my own... everybody will laugh at me if I shoot factory.

Does Dean's book have accurate flight curves (tested, not caculated), for military ball, AP, API, and APIT, etc...???
I'll load the A-Max's for a lot of shooting, but also want to play with military projectiles. I have Incendary for my .308, and it's a friggin' riot.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 02:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.80)

Would also appreciate any comments on an Armalite AR-180.

Thanks guys

MikeL in Milwaukee,
Remington discontinued the RH .308 VS for 1999; but they are making them again. If you need help finding one, drop me a note and I'll see what I can do.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies where we vote for "live" people; not dead ones!, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 02:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.70)

Yeah, Deans book has a lot of decent poop in it. But there is a some that just doesn't jive with all that I've shot with my time at Barrett. I'm no expert, but I do have over 30,000 rds downrange with the 82A1 and the M95. The farthest I've shot is 2400m. Hits that far are more luck than anything. Reading the wind with this cartridge can be a real lesson in heartbreak. The mil stuff is really agravating. You can get really good results with the M8 AP. It flies truest of any of the mil stuff out there.

If you do decide to use the AMAX bullets, watch out what you buy. The 1st generation stuff is about 1/4" longer than the new projo's being made. The old ones will fly through paper sideways starting at around 250-300m. Will get the OAL of the new ones we have at the shop and mail it to you with some reload data that I came up with for the AMAX. Them bullets are something else.

We got in some factory match rds for the 50 a week ago for me to test, they are real nice rounds. Got a consistant 1MOA with the M82A1 out to 800m. After that it ran 1 1/4min out to 1200. That was all the shooting I did on the 82A1. With the M95/ XM107, it ran 3/4min all the way to 1400m. I was duly impressed. I didn't think the ammo makers had it in them. Can't tell the producer yet, they don't have their patent yet. We got a case to test out.

'lito, shoot me your address and I'll send the book to you to check out.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.76.148.37)

As for short barreled .223 bolt guns and scopes I'd go with a Luppie 3.5 X 10 Vari-X III. For the gun and use you described you don't need Badger parts or the MKIV series scopes.

I used that scope on my Rem Varmint Special .223 in PA. Much to the demise of many PA ground hogs. Clean kills to 400 yards were common using 55 gr Nosler soft points...

Save the money and by components and gas for your hunting trips.

Enjoy!

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:43:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.152)

I've never seen the QRW rings used on an AR. Why not?
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 04:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.98)

Damn, the AR-50 weighs 40 lbs? whew sounds like it needs to be mounted in a FAV.
 
 
 
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 04:39:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.23)

I've been checking the "Calender of Events" section and there is no mention of upcoming sniper matches. What's coming up?

What's the skinny on the Florida shoot? It's getting cold and grey around here and I could use some beach time.

GOOCH....you out there? SITREP??

Off Topic: I've never hunted coyotes before. They're all over this area now. What reference material would be recommended? What's the best way for me to come up to speed on this? e-mail is ok, don't take up space here with replies.

Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 11:46:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

McGrath
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 12:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

Check out Tac-Ord, they have a .50 built on a harris action & K&P BBL, it chambers the .50 short (some type of spotters round) or you can get the full .50 BMG all wraped up in a nice fuzzy 20-25 lbs.
It was developed as a sub-sonic gun, but my bro Jamee Wade at Tac-Ord will make it into a super-sonic full .50 .

check em' out

Later

Kush out
 
 

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 12:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.183.144.82)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment111300n.shtml
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 13:25:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.6)

"Also getting to be too many crazies in the woods, even around our lease."

This past Saturday was opening day where I hunt, and I almost got shot one once, not twice, not even three times, but FOUR F-ING TIMES! I am now very well aquainted with the distinctive CRACK-BOOM of supersonic rounds passing close to your head.

Gotta go buy an entrenching tool before my next hunt...

Roger
Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Where hippies and body-piecers are considered upstanding citizens...Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:22:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

What else do you expect from a party heavily financed by trial lawyers associations? They've made the justice system into an entity that rewards those who know how to manipulate the system, not an entity that actually serves justice.

Still trying to make it up to Tac-Pro for the precision rifle course. Maybe I'll see you there.

Roger
Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
The only place in the country where a nude beach and a birdwatching site are placed right next to eachother, Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:32:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

Yeah, I remember that silly thing about cleaners... I still have a gallon jug of green patches, smellin' real good.

My choice is based on how I clean, and some long term brand loyality.
I often come in with several filthy guns, and I just sloppy wet patch them, and finish up the next day... well maybe a few days later, so something that can't be left in the barrel, don't get into my place!!

And I'm very brand loyal... if a company serves me well, I hang in there, and I love the smell of that jooce... been smellin that Hoppe's #9, and G-96 oil for more years than most of youz guys have on your drivers licenses.
I go down into the basement, and the aroma on #9, and G-96, that's soaked into the work benches for years, says "Welcome to heaven, Dude!"...
... it's better than two keys of "Mexican Black Hemp"! for a high ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 16:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.101)

Kush mentioned a shortened .50 cal round rifle by Tac-Ord. Believe this is the old spotter round for the 106 recoiless rifle. Designation was M-8 spotter, I believe. Neat gun and concept. Spotter gun was semi-auto magazine fed and had the same trajectory as the 106MM. Pull the knob to fire the spotter. When you got a puff of smoke on the target you just pushed in and fired the 106!

I may be dating myself, but anyone here even remember the 106?

Wes
(Who actually fired one!)

P.S. It gets my vote for a "heavy snipers weapon". Of course backblast is a bit of a give away, but the guys on the recieving end usually aren't in condition to bitch at that point. Beehive gets my vote as the antipersonnel round of choice!
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:28:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)

That will be good, lots of one on one training.

About the what did I expect, sorry to say nothing, that's the sad part.

Now with the news of high jacked military absentee ballots, and fourth class postage put on some,to make sure the mil- guy's/gal's votes would not make in time, has got me to the point where I will never trust a Democrat again. Period.

I never have trusted most politico's anyway.....but this has iced it but good.

Whatever happened to real Statesmen???

Two PO'd Shoes
shakingmyheadintexas
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:28:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.59)

'lito.... I agree with you 100% on the #9, I too have been using it
for more years than I can remember. My wife even likes the smell of
the stuff, and it's much cheaper than Chanel No.5 ;-)). It's just
that I get lazy sometimes, and was just investigating different
products that are said to work faster, before ruining a barrel or two.

Political thought.... Algor should probably win the election... after
all, he did graduate from the Electoral College...didn't he?

Bruce and Hugo.... I didn't mean ALL lawyers, just their guys :-)

Keep praying,
Alan

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:36:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.91)

Dear Janet Reno,

I need legal help fast!! My rights have been voilated and I do not know where to turn.

I woke up thursday morning to discover I had the correct Texas Lottery numbers, however, I mistakenly put the wrong numbers on the lottery ticket!!

The ticket was so confusing and hard to read that now Im not sure what numbers I put on it. I do know that when I heard the winning numbers Thursday morning, they were the exact same ones I had when I went into the store to fill out the ticket.

I asked the store clerk for help and explained my difficulty, but, all I was told was, "Man are you stupid? Just put some numbers in the blocks!!"

I believe my civil rights have been violated and I am (With a little help from the local chapter of a major non-profit organization) writing you a letter to have U.S. Marshals come to Austin and freeze the lottery until I can get my ticket re-issued and the winning numbers acconted for.

Can you help me with this problem??

Again, I did have the correct numbers, however, I couldn't read the ticket, figure out the numbers or how the numbers were arranged. This is a gross injustice and I am the WINNER!!

Sincerly yours,

A Real Dumb-Ass Floridian
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 19:55:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Actually Algor INVENTED the electoral college, or so I've heard. HA!

Wes, I think I saw one in a museum once. But seriously, It looked like a cool round, not as punishing as the full .50 BMG
Which brings me to your anti-personell choice, 40MM beehive is a fun round, takes a door effectively off the hinges in a CQB enviroment.

Later

Kush out
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 19:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.183.144.239)

Friend of mine (a retired Navy Master Chief) put it very well this morning when he said that the Dems have always suffered from a lack of gentlemen in their party. Repubs will take into account the greater good of the country and do like Nixon did and back off even when they're clearly right in order to avoid a dispute that will damage the country. A Dem doesn't care about anything but his own self interest. Liberals are so perpetually indignant. They're constantly going off at the mouth and people take the attitude of "let the baby have his bottle" and give them what they want just to shut them up and make them go away. The only problem is, they never shut up and they always come back.

I just got the package from Tac-Pro yesterday. I read through it at my desk just a while ago and saw that I'll need to bring along at least 200 rnds of ammo. Don't know why, but I hadn't considered that when planning the excursion. D'oh! Guess I'll need to order that case of GMM 168 I've be procrastinating over...

Roger
Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Quoth Clinton, "You want a cigar?" Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:13:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_dougherty/20001114_xnjdo_military_a.shtml

So, are the bulk of overseas ballots coming from expatriates living in Israel? And who is watching the post office? Is it possible to "misplace" ballots that can be identified as military?
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:42:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.19)

I have posted those you who are regulars here a rather interesting joke.

I apologize for that actually because I personally hate getting more than the occasional joke but I thought this one was too sweet to pass up considering the current political side show we are being forced to endure.

I fly on the morrow and will be back in a couple weeks. Business south (way) of here beckons.

Play Hard!

Mars
Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
Headed for a third world nation tomorrow to purchase land. For real and with the intention of making a move., Will brief you upon return if interested., USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:47:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.111.166)

A lot of political posts...just wish they'd get it over with so we can take action one way or another...

Kush, Been awhile since I've seen 40MM Behive. Last time I used a 40MM was to blow an armory in place during Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
It was our armory and it's a six beer story!

'lito, anyone who underestimates the power of Hoppes #9 doesn't know much. My wife (then lady friend), put a dab behind each ear. We've been married 10 years now. Shit, you think it should come with a warning label?

All for now.

S/F

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 03:33:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.115)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 05:31:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.48)

First, read Scott Powers' article on detachable magazine systems. Then, tell me what you think of the H.S. Precision detachable magazine system. I am planning on installing one on my Rem 700P. I have seen the system in an H.S. HTR rifle just last week, it looked and felt excellent. I was very impressed by the quality, and liked the way it aligned the top cartridge with the boreline (centered in front of the bolt face). Also, Armament Technology apparently uses this system in their rifles.

JR from H.S., feel free to send me any info on this system.
 

Thanks!
onezero <onezero@specialoperations.com>
Don't Tread On Me, in the, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 07:01:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.105.22.108)

You're absoluty right... every time my lady wanted "you know what", she'd dab some Hoppe's #9 "you know where"! And those of you that don't know what "you know what" and "you know where" are, you're too young to be reading this site! ;))

It's Wednesday again... gotta go make money for "you know what" (the 50 BMG)... a good set of match grade dies (C-H)... $500 OUCH!!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Sellin' ma' soul for BIG BOOLETS... in the politically confused, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 11:46:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.61)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment111300g.shtml
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:18:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.53)

C-H dies are good, we use the Hornady New Dimension 50BMG dies at work for tinkering around. They are almost as good as the C-H. Key word -ALMOST. But still good dies, $250 for a set of them.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.118.136)

Didn't think the 106MM comments would get the reaction it did. Just means most of the crew knows good shit!

Kevin and Ken. The Marines fielded ONTOS. I believe our version had four tubes on it. Army had one with six. My understanding was that if you fired them all at once you cracked the turret welds! Other problem was you had to get our to reload...

I don't know about a Recoiless Rifle in a MOUT environment. Backblast would be a substantial problem to surrounding structures and troops.Not to mention some of the huts we find probably wouldn't detonate the warhead. How 'bout a MK19 40MM...? Should do a fairly credible job.

US fielded Recoiless Rifles in 57/90/106MM. The first two were shoulder fires. I can see the 57, but a 90MM...? Hope you have JO-JO the Apeman in you Platoon...

'lito, I must be an old fart. I know what "you know what" AND "you know where" mean...;-)
The younger guys don't need to know...,but if they get around Hoppe's wimmen will find out!

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:38:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.35)

They have a lifetime warranty that covers anything except failures,

apparently.Save your money and buy the Loopy.

Just got off the phone with them,and after they lost the d### scope

for three weeks,when they found it the verdict was
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:39:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.207.109.2)

My very first job in the Infantry was as a "90-Gunner". I walked into the barracks with my AWOL bag and somebody yelled, "Hey everybody! Come meet the new 90-gunner!" I carried it for about three months until I got promoted to "60-Gunner". Never met Jo-Jo.

I got to "expend all remaining ammunition" on a 90mm range once. By the time I was finished I tried to stand up and I couldn't get my ballance. It's a gun that kills at both ends and the blast is hard on the gunner too.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 21:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

I have not had any problem with my Elite 4000 6X24, I have not had any problem with my Tasco SS10X42M either. I don't know what the original problem with the scope was that caused you to send it back in the first place but here are my thoughts. If you did check out the scope as you indicated I would tell them that and have them ship you a new scope as they evidently found the wrong one or they were the source of the bent tube, either way they should owe you a scope. That's my 2 cents.
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 22:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.217.215.1)

The 50cal AMAX's you want to get are the 2.560" ones. The 1st gen ones are .250" longer and won't stabilize no matter what you do. If you order sight unseen, make sure of the length.

The HTI book went out today to you. Brass will go Monday.
 

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 23:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.113.27)

I'm gonna spend the winter makin' ammo so when the toy gets here, I'll be ready to shoot in!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.ney>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 00:19:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.17)

I need some new recommendations here, I've got a set knee/elbow pads coming "Monica specials" that will take care of those two parts of my body just fine. That done, my concern is shifting towards something for the rest of my body that will put an extra layer between me and the foxtails and stickers. Was thinking of something like a burlap or codura apron to act as collect all and atleast take out a percentage of those damn things. Codura or Burlap might not even suffice and something like a piece of tanned leather from a welders apron or something, don't want to spend too much though.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what materials they prefer or how to go about making something like this? Thinking about calling it my set of "Squirrel Chaps." Hmmm, just had a thought, perhaps I could make it out of tanned squirrel hides? Nevermind, that's too close to wearing a necklace of squirrel ears.

Feel free to email me or reply here, I'll check back later this evening and tomorrow.
 

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
I can just hear those damn squirrels laughing at me in Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 00:21:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Gents,

My new neck size bushings arrived from Redding today. For those interested, I should have some more data and 600 yard accuracy tests in the next couple weeks.

Anything in particular you gents want to know?

Seems like I "got smaller" than 106 MM all of a sudden. Know what I can do with the extra 99.5 MM?

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 02:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.236)

I went to buy a pistola and three days later i am still amazed that even the F*ng gun shop made me feel like a damn criminal.
the conversation went something like this...
"why do you want to buy a semi auto? what do you need more than 6 shots for?"

I want to use it for plinking, target shooting and the like, dont really like revolvers. Plus i really like the fit of the HK, really comfy to shoot.

"Plinking? there is no good reason you need a full clip of 10. when you are target shooting all you need is 6 at the most. otherwise you will just be wasting bullets. do you have a criminal record?"

A criminal record? No.

"well there is no reason you need a semi auto for target shooting"

Look, do you want to make a $750 sale, or not?

"fine, i will start the background check, but there will be a 20% restocking fee if something comes up you havent told me."

You know what, nevermind. You sell all the revolvers you want and i will buy my semi auto somewhere else.
fucking jackass. Im getting all pissed off just thinking about it.
"you have a criminal record"....not yet. i will after i leap across this counter though, asshole.
The funny part is, this is the same place i bought my 700 with synthetic stock and heavy barrel.
just goes to show you, there are a-holes everywhere you go. Oh well, screw them, i will spend my money elsewhere.
I will have my new toy on the 24th after the 11 day wait. only 9 more days...
Jeffro <pumpkin0871@yahoo.com>
San Jo, ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:00:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.70.47.165)