Sniper Country Duty Roster

November 2000


There really isn't need for any thick armor and there was no intention, at least on my part, to hurt anyone in general or you specifically.

One of the major problems with the written word is being able to get across your feelings as you intended them, and most of us, I would guess, have a difficult time doing that since we ain't ol' Bill Shakespear hisself! I think a lot of times we all get our underwear tied up in a knot because of semantics and actually we all really agree with each other, more or less.

One of the things that really impresses me about this board is the calibre of those who are active on it. I am really looking forward to meeting a goodly number of them (maybe at The Mountain?). There are some shooting related boards out there that I occasionally drop in on, and some of those people scare the living shit out of me. I am all for the 2nd (and the others too) but there ARE some people that just shouldn't have anything more dangerous than a blunt #2 pencil in their possession (preferably with erasers at both ends).

I don't think anyone here would object to sharing a hole with anyone else here or have a problem with "A" covering "B"s back.

And by the way, I wasn't putting down my son, or you by comparing you to him. I love him dearly and respect him for who and what he is - I was 21 once also........I ...think! ;-)

And should we ever meet, I'll let you buy the first round!

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 00:18:17 (ZULU) (your host address:


Geez, I've seen about 5 posts from you and you're clearly offended. Thats fine, your opinion. But one final note and I'll let it go because I don't think its healthy for the site to keep this going.

It's a responsible drill, but you're right. I thought it was hilarious to see the shock on the PSC companys face. Is that so unhealthy? I don't think so; not for PSC company or maybe for civilians (not to start the us v. them thing REALLY!!). What I find amusing about it is that they are so shocked to see violence and carnage, and hey, we're only talking chickens, which we could not bring back with us, we had to go hunt a group called M20 later that week.

Guess what snipers really shoot CDC? Or did you lose track of that?

By the way, next time you come on this site, look at the motto:

"If you run, you'll only die tired!"

That quote was meant for chickens.

Also, my hometown has a total of 700 people and one DOG21. But we've been conspiring with city people everywhere to eliminate chickens from society as a whole and create a new world order free from the evil empire of COL Sanders and his legions.

Consider this, you have written several vehement posts regarding the chicken thing. Perhaps you should consider emailing me directly rather than keeping it on the board.

And wrapping myself in the flag? I won't even respond to that. Don't say it again.

Last post from me on this and sorry to everyone on the site to bring this disagreement here, but I did want one response and I promise, no more.


Jeff <>
VT, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:04:40 (ZULU) (your host address:


I already spoke my peace and was please to see that post about military snipers evolving from civilians. In fact, thats what leaders are supposed to look for, hunters, poachers especially who are sneaky and used to avoiding detection and so on.

But one last comment. Cyclops has brought a lot of great information to this site in a courteous and professional manner. Lets keep the big picture in mind also and I for one hope he sticks around.

Of course, I'm an outcast too!

Everyone enjoy yourselfs and best of luck to all!!

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cyclops: Don't let these hogs rag you. If you have some super-secret mojo, God bless you and the best of luck.

JeffDogWhatever: You can buy a whole chicken-farm and call in an air-strike for all I care.

Now I'm going to grade papers and work on a tall glass of "combat focus" or whatever that was.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:13:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:22:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:22:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Damn, pulled the trigger too quick. Sorry bout that!

Anyway, have a boooooooolet question(Halloween humor there):

Are there hunting bullets that will match the performance of paper shooting bullets in calibers .308, 7mag, 300mag? Would sure be nice not to have to dope out 2 sets of loads for 3 rifles.

Thank you and have a blood sucking, chicken slaughtering, civilian sniping, super secret shooting thingy night. The Prince of Darkness movie about VLAD the Impaler comes on in a few minutes. Damn, talk about a mean dude!

Booooolt out!
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:30:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff (DOG21)-

Is this chicken thing part of the "Take back Vermont" movement? (you guys not from the NE probably don't understand this at all). Hell- I think it was a rather silly exercise...but I'm the one who got into trouble at my range by burning down the FBI SWAT team leaders target and stand! FBI and Thermite charges just don't mix apparently. Some people just can't take a joke! Actually-CDC posts here quite regularily...never met him, but I have seen him take some people (lets just call them NATO types) down a few pegs deservedly. He seems to be on the ball and his posts were nowhere near what I have seen him do.

I have a place near Bradford for deer hunting (next week baby!)and I see those signs every time I go up there. Beutiful country, honest people (even though they appear to suport that liberal Gore).

In the infamous words of my mentor Rodney King......OUCH!! (bet you thought I would say can't we all get along!)
Mictac <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:36:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I called H-S today and they said my 300 Ultra Mag HTR was going to be done by Thankgiving! Now that is something to give thanks about. My question is I need to get some good tactical rounds loaded and don't know were to start. Most of my experience has been with .223's and 22-250's. Sierra has several Matchking's to choose from, 175, 180, 190, 200, and 220's. And what powder works best for the 300UM? Has anyone worked with the 300UM enough to give me a good starting Place? I found some once fired federal brass and have it all ready to go. I just need some good advice and a place to start. Thanks. I will top this rifle with Badger-ord rings and bases and a Leupold 6.5x20x50LRT with Mark4 M1 knobs from Premier Retical.
Daren Yancey <>
Blackfoot, ID, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:41:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
Loved your "Ouch"! Laughed out loud!

We don't say the "N" word here anymore... "Nato", that is! ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 01:42:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Is this dam sillyness over yet? Let me know when we will get back to sniper talk, LE, MIL, or Civie. Then again we are all civies aren't we.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 02:07:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Attempt to lighten the mood :

Caseless ammunition : who needs it. We should develop edible cartridges; no ballistic signature and lightens the MRE load.



Ares <>
Canton, OH, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 02:26:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Serious Question!

Has anyone else been disappointed in "The Accurate Rifle" that took over Tactical Shooter magazine? I read Tactical Shooter from cover to cover, even things I had little to no interest in. Always good to look for a few tidbits of knowledge.
The new magazine just doesn't cut it for me. Very little information in tactical usuage, gear, whatnots...I called up and switched my reamining subscription to Precision Shooter. Hope that's better.
Now for a new subject- I have been working with a very well known gear manufacturer for over a year now on producing a refined sniper pack mat. The two main priorities I had in this were compactness and ease of use. Basically it is a packmat taken to extremes in capability. Tactical Shooter and I were talking about an article to be published...but with that demise I don't think they would be interested in this sort of specialized gear.
Would you guys (or gals), as a generally interested target group, be interested in such a design? And if so, what sort of features would you like? The final prototypes are coming out in the next few weeks......

Thanks in advance
Mictac <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 02:44:08 (ZULU) (your host address:


Seems we have a plethora of new cartridges on the way from Remington in the guise of the "Ultra Mag" and Winchester (whatinthehellaretheycallin'themthings) short fat cartridges...

Just what we need, a new generation of badly overbored cartridges that will shoot out a bore in nothing flat. OK for hunting, I guess (as though we need them). On the other hand I haven't heard any of our crew expounding their virtues. See we do have some sense!

Just when I thought I was pushing the envelope with my 6.5 x .284 project...

Cyclops: Didn't mean to be harsh in my post. As noted, if you can hump a 85 pack and rifle for days and remain viable in combat more power to you. Maybe I've just got "little guy" syndrome. At 5'4" it seemed I always got extra shit when the load got spread out. JUST what I need...a mortar base plate in addition to my own combat load!

By the way, if you've got a recipe for that secret mojo send it my 49 I need ALL the help I can get...

No wonder we couldn't catch then little rice propelled folks in Vietnam.

Semper Fi,


P.S. Now you know why they have the saying; "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill any day of the week"!
Wes Howe <>

USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 02:58:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

SNIVEL. E mail me off The Roster for the deepest darkest secrets of successful spousal snivelling.....HeHEEE...some of you guys take things WWWAAAAYYYY too serious.Tell that new boss that you want to be better prepared to protect his all too vital ass in case your position is over run guessed it.....CHICKENS.Sorry guys I just cain't hep meseff sometimes.

I think the award you get for the J.A.T.O. rocket thing is The Darwin award.You furnish the car and rockets and I'll do the welding and fab. work for ya.....might even get you booked on Springer.

Now where did I put that Thorazine...........
BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 03:18:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick; whatchabitchin about ole Lito gave away the secret so now you know how to survive. I can't believe it. Remembering back just about 3 years ago. I was in Nearleans on St. Patrick's day. No green would have been suicide for sure! Only way you could "leave Louisana in the broad day light!" Just shows that some people just don't have respect for tactical secrets. Lito's been goin bad ever since he left Texas... I knew it was gonna happen.

Well, I ain't apologizing to old Cyclops... I figure a guy that's got enough balls to hit a swamp with 85 lbs pack don't need no sympathy!
He can take care of himself in this theatre of action! IF we could scare him off with this crap he wouldn't have that "BATTLEFIELD dedication" or whatever.... anyhow!"

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 03:35:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Psst! now you guys watch old Rick... he'll come back on and claim he knew about that green business all along. That's how old Sarge stayed hid so long! Wearin that green he was! Chicken movers Rick.. that's where it's at now! I know, I know I take this too serious!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 03:41:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sir Wes: I think you've touched on an interesting topic. The efficiency of the round. I recall reading about the 308X1.5", and wondering how such a thing could possibly develop the velocity it did with the standard 147 FMJ. It was well under bore, and not shabby at that! And let's not overlook that 6mm PPC. Getting full rifle velocities out of it isn't any real trick, and that thing's diminutive. In my opinion, THIS is where the designers should be looking. Imagine getting 10K rounds out of a 308 without a rebarrel (and super accuracy).

Mictac: How about this for mat design features: extremely light weight while allowing for refrigeration of beer HA! I carry too much gear as it is, but if it's a neat design, I'm game. You're right on CDC, he's been playing nice. We both had the same mentor, and that guy has a way with words that's phenominal. But as for the fbi, well, thermites might agree with them more than me. Not that I have personnal experience or anything, but I just can't see anyone working for reno and not being "tainted". Kind of like the military, we lost lots over clittons reign.

Shooter: fair warning. When I showed up to the last class, I'd heard all about how Mike had melted down ginsu knives in him and such. I tried not to let him heft anything without offering to carry it for him. By the end of the class, I was convinced he should have been carrying MY gear! LOL Either that or, as I suspect, he found the only working elevator to the top of a ridge. For a guy who uses a walker, he MOVES!

Well, with the forced march over for the evening, I'm gonna work on a large stein of combat focus too. Good name. Better than "Beer Goggles".
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 04:09:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Undude....Hey, gotta stick together! Even with Cyclops...C man, I for one welcome your opinions. Shoot away. This is a fun place to come read some really good shtuff. So just lighten up and have some fun.

I need/want a WW II/ Korea era E-tool with the pick on it and the long handle....not the knock off copies...a real one. Anybody got one they want to part with?

Cory <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 04:38:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello Guys,
Can anybody tell me give me the pros and cons of the .243 Win vs the 6mm Remington. What I am intrested in is accuracy, barrel life etc. Any info would be appreciated.
Shooter <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 04:59:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, what are those of you using that have night vision devices for your rifles. Simrad or...?

Would be interesting to have an open discussion of what is working and those things that are not...

Spendy devils to be sure, but I'm leaning toward a NVD and a surpressor in the next year or so...

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 05:42:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff: I've been in pissing contests with half the guys here, and there's no one here I wouldn't share my last canteen with. In person Mike Miller and I insulted each other freely and enjoyed it. As soon as we lost the nuance carried by the spoken word we were at each other's throats. And I LIKE the big cartoon character. Bravo and I went at it, and he's my buddy. I called PeteR a Special Olympian and Bill R a burger flipper. But those buzzards had it coming. It would surprise me if you weren't an all right guy. If you'll direct the condescension and attempts at heavy sarcasm elsewhere, we'll get along fine. And no more orders. I do whatever I want.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 05:53:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can anybody help me find wind drift data for the M-852 round?
Big John <>
Short Creek, Oh, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 06:34:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Big John,

Check out this link for M-852 info

Hope this helps...
Byron <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 06:55:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for all the replies about the iron sights. Bravo you sure are the defender of gas guns, any chance you get! Good thing you are even more adamant about the USA.

I will get real specific with what I want to do: Remington 700P LTR in .308 Winchester with Palma-type iron sights for close range hunting (0-400 yards). I am looking for recommendations on the front sight especially, should I go with a barrel band or drill and tap the barrel directly? And same with the receiver (rear) sight, should I drill and tap the receiver, or get a rear sight that attaches to a Weaver base? My priorities are, in order:

1. Field-tough
2. Accurate/adjustable/repeatable
3. Price

Thanks again men, hold hard. Remember Veterans' Day, 11 OCT 2000. Now when is Civilians' Day? Oh, yes. Every day we are FREE. Go visit a memorial, say thanks to your dad or grandpa for serving us all, fly the Red, White, and Blue.

onezero <>
Don't Tread On Me, in the, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 07:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for all the replies about the iron sights. Bravo you sure are the defender of gas guns, any chance you get! Good thing you are even more adamant about the USA.

I will get real specific with what I want to do: Remington 700P LTR in .308 Winchester with Palma-type iron sights for close range hunting (0-400 yards). I am looking for recommendations on the front sight especially, should I go with a barrel band or drill and tap the barrel directly? And same with the receiver (rear) sight, should I drill and tap the receiver, or get a rear sight that attaches to a Weaver base? My priorities are, in order:

1. Field-tough
2. Accurate/adjustable/repeatable
3. Price

Thanks again men, hold hard. Remember Veterans' Day, 11 OCT 2000. Now when is Civilians' Day? Oh, yes. Every day we are FREE. Go visit a memorial, say thanks to your dad or grandpa for serving us all, fly the Red, White, and Blue.

onezero <>
Don't Tread On Me, in the, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 07:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the link, but that page does not include the wind drift data. So close yet so far... :)
Big John <>
A windy Short Creek, Oh, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 07:29:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
.338 Lapua Magnum,

Just fired the 1st few rounds out of my Sako TRG-41, which is mounted with a TRG-42 muzzle brake (much bigger & is a thread on job).
Recoil is not too bad,will be breaking in the barrel over the next week or two,and on the weekend will try out the Reflex T8M suppressor,hopefully it will reduce the firing signature (noise) and the recoil even lower than the big brake.
After break in will switch over to using moly coated bullet's only.

For all the Sako fan's out there,seem's they are about to introduce a lite weight version of their 75 serie's.

Later Chris
Chris <>
New Zealand - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 08:25:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Try starting with Sierra 190's and H-1000, RE-25, or RamShot Big Boy powders. I'm still working on some .300 RUM load development, problem is every time I fire a shot it take a 30 minute bus trip to get back to the firing line............... (Just Kidding!)

Hey Bravo,
I shot the K-I-M-B-E-R (Thats spelled Kimber) Sunday in the big local/regional L-E Match here in By-GaWd . Other than spazzing two left hand shots @ 15 yards I did OK [297-300 19X]. I'm telling you BeerMeister, you must obtain one!!!!!
PS Lotsa interest in Tactical rifle shooting from the competitors when they saw the Sniper Rendezvous t-shirt. Nice to see these folks getting serious about their gear and training.

Master Rick,
How would you like to give us a rundown on what gear you would personally take for competeing in a stalking exercise?
We would like practical enlightenment from you.
Type & Selection of Clothing?
Camo for gear?
Carry system for water & widgets?


This year I get to carry the Torch-ski!!!!!!! HA!


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 11:17:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pete; thanks for asking...I'm sure many would be interested in Rick's green stuff!
Wes; the first "Sniper" rifle I ever owned was an old Remington,glass bedded (before epoxy even) before the adl/bdl business in .244 or what is now known as 6mm Remington. It had a T-10 Weaver on it. I replaced it with a 40X later but it was quite up to the task. The boys at the Fort where dad was stationed thought it was magic against their M's In the early 50's dime size groups were still impressive in Military Circles/Military Ranges. That's beside the question. I would prefer the .244 to the .243 because of the slight velocity edge and it always seemed to feed better and throw fewer "flyers". It's kind of like a .243 magnum.
You don't have to load it hotter than the .243 to get the same accuracy but the cases and ammo are harder to find. That extra little bit of punch (actually about the same difference as a .30-06 to a 300 win magnum seems to be a little better in the hunting (of animals) game. These days I'd probably pick the .243 for a General hunting rifle for Less than Elk size game. Or maybe the 25-06 or .260 even.
for just a little more punch. The .244 was first thought to be magic by about everyone and touted to be the new African wonder weapon.(believe it not). That was a little far fetched.

Ok Rick about that Green stuff or yours? .........
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 12:36:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry that post should read early 60's, although it's technically true
the events described were in the late 50's early 60's time. Those were the days my friend!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 12:41:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
Shooter: I've been shooting a few 6mm Rems for, (can it really be?), twenty years. Before that a couple of my brothers and I used .243s a bit. So I know just enough to be dangerous. I think its like most of these Ford vs Chevy things argued here. There's not much to choose from between the rounds themselves. If you can do it with one, you can do it with the other. Brass and ammo are easier to find with the .243, so that's the way I'd go now. They are both big mistakes as a big-game round. They are easy enough to hit with at ranges where they just don't have the power to do the job. Great rockchuck/jackrabbit rounds.

Just my biased opinions.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 12:43:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

I got a few emails asking me what I had against our foreign posters- they were referencing my "NATO type individual" post.
Most of you got it (right Lito?) and knew that I was referring to an individual with the screen name of NATO who had been involved in quite a disruption to the roster. THat individual was banned from the roster for the activities that occurred. Perhaps I was too vague in my post or those asking were unaware of the previous disruption.
No insult or referece was made to any current poster and none intended towards our off-shore brothers. I would insult some of you that I know, but you are too far away to have a beer with!
Mictac <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 13:47:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
M852 wind drift. M852 is a 168 Sierra at around 2600 fps. Go to the Norma Ballistics site at and check it out.

Minimum gear on a stalk is rifle, ammo, support, binoculars and water.
Gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 13:58:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shooting question - I've got this George Gardner built AR10 in .260 coming... I'm looking for some input on the best bullet to start out with load development. I'm thinking the 142 Grainer might be like trying to push a 190 grainer out of a M14...just too much bullet for the gun..

After an exchange with Lito a few months back, I was thinking of trying that new "short grain Varget"....

On the topic of the great chicken massacre... I can see the training value. I've become something of a wimp when it comes to hurting attitude is more "city" than I'd like it to be, I really don't like to kill if it's not necessary to "eat" or "defend from".

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 14:06:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

If your looking for one all around bullet to be accurate and good for hunting take a look at the Nozzler Ballistic Tips. I have found them to have match accuracy and they seem to work well on most game depending on caliber. Like everything else some people don't like them on bigger game but there is a trade off for everything. If your looking for a do all bullet that would be my choice. I have shot some groups with them that were under half inch and some in the .3s. The big draw back for me is the price they are mighty proud of them!!

Have to concur with the others on the 6MM vs .243 to close to call you will be happy with either one. I have shot mostly .243s and found them to be very accurate and good on animals up to deer. My favorite all time round for varmints is a 243IMP. when you hit something with the 70grBT at 3850fps its like they have been hit by lightning!!!

Glad you popped back up, this is a tough yard to play in. Like I said earlier, many times the written word comes across other than intended, we've all been there and done that some of us more than others(HA).

You never cease to amaze me!!! You should write short stories.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 15:10:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill hit it on the head. I'm not going any where, and I don't expect any apologies. I don't expect you guys to apologize to a Bad Guy when you (in the words of Ben Dolan) "Ventilate his Melon". I actually enjoyed the refreshing "input" I recieved. I read all the posts as I cradled my huge balls while reclining against my 85 lb. ruck. "Forward to the sound of the guns" is my motto. I'll see you guys on site.

Awsome idea with the chickens. Where can I get some cheap? And when are we going to have that beer?

I'll be out of town for the next couple of weeks (I Know you'll miss me) But in case I don't get a chance to post before than I'd like to wish ALL the vets on this site a Happy Veterans Day! Nobody appreciates you more than those of us who try to achieve what you have. Your sacrifices and patriotism does not go unnoticed, GOd Bless.
Cyclops <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 15:19:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

With regards to using a 243 for big game, the 243 is the second most popular deer round in Texas (I think 30-06 is first). I know several people that use it, all with great success. I am not an advocate of using the 243, in fact I just helped a friend with his first rifle purchase and talked him into a 260 over a 243. My point is that whitetail deer vary in size across the country. A friend in Illinois frequently shoots WT that dress out around 225 lbs. The largest deer I have shot dressed around 120 lbs. All of my hunting has been in west Texas, but I have been told that deer are similar sized across the state. While I would not feel terribly undergunned in Texas with a 243, I would not think about using this caliber farther north.

Sniping question,
Deer season starts this weekend and the forecast is rain. Anybody have special techniques for taking care of rifle while out there? Other wet weather info helpful as well. I have never had a problem with rain before, it just doesn't rain in west Texas.

The (Other) Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 16:06:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pseudo technical question:

Is there a TECHNICAL definition of an 'over-bore' cartridge? I've seen some ridiculous wildcat rounds, which seem obvious candidates, but some people think the 220-Swift is 'over-bore', which I question.


Steve <>
Vote for Bush, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 16:20:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don..LTR is a great rifle..I have a 3.5x10LRM3 on mine and it has worked well for me both in the field and in competition. Pete R...You, I gather fromsome posts, have recently shot prairie dogs in SD. Used to shoot the Conata Basin Years ago. Mostly go to wyo. & Mont. now...Do you have any experience on the Cheyenne Sioux reservation?? Any ideas for contacts?? Jim Mitchel.. Hows your ghilli comming..I still have abag of burlap {soaking wet} in the back of my truck if you need somemore.. Markwell out
markwell <>
seneca, wv, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 16:48:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
Take your pick most "HOT" calibers are over bore including the 220 swift. The 25-06 is another prime example. Most of the Weatherbys are also. A lot of these rounds are based off of another larger caliber such as the 25-06 is a necked down 30-06, same amount of powder pushing a smaller bullet. There are some rounds that use a lot more powder to push a bullet only a 100 or so feet a second faster so you reach a point of deminishing returns. A prime example is the 300 Weatherby compared to the 300WM.

I live in centeral SD and hunt coyotes on the Cheyenne river and there are not a lot of PDs left unshot around here. The Varmint Hunter mag. moved to Pierre, SD a few years ago and now everybody and their dog comes out here and shoots PDs. The problem is they start in March and April and kill a lot of the mothers before they hatch and they have nearly wiped out some of the big towns that used to be around. I am trying to find a good place now to shoot some dogs next year for a friend and its not easy.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 17:14:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the 243 vs 6mm info. I greatly enjoy this site and look forward to the good info.
Shooter <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 17:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
One bullet - two applications

Hey all, I'm a lurker who finally thinks he might be able to help someone. Reading thru the roster, I saw a question where someone asked if it was possible to use the same bullet for target and hunting applications. I want to see what is thought of the way I'm trying to do that very thing.

I've been loading my rounds with Barnes X-bullets thinking that although the all copper bullets are intended for hunting use, there shouldn't be any reason they couldn't also be used for competition.

Has anyone shot competition using the Barnes bullet? I'm planning on shooting competition next year with those loads and so far I'm getting good groups. As for hunting uses, I'll find out in a couple of weeks how the Barnes works on a whitetail.

The rifle: Remington 700VS .308 with a 4.5-14 VariX III
The Load: 43gr Varget, 165 gr Barnes X-Bullet
The groups: I can consistantly group 1/2 inch for 5 rounds at 200 meters. I haven't been able to shoot farther than this yet due to lame ranges in my area.

Well, anyone think I'm on the right path or am I heading for a beating with my
Larry <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 17:53:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Overbore is pretty much a subjective term. Some rounds eat barrels faster than others. Some people expect a barrel to last forever, it seems. I don't worry too much about it. I can always get a gun rebarreled, it's hard to get a 2nd chance at a deer or other critter. Yes, I like a barrel to last longer than load workup, but whether it goes 3500,5000 or 7000, is pretty much a moot point to me. I shoot about 2500-3000 rds per year through my service rifle, and that means a new barrel every three years or so. I can live really easy with that. Everybody has to make their own choices. Hell, buy a 22LR, they last 50,000 rds easy, if you're so worried about barrel life. Ammo's cheap too.
Pat, the 300 Weatherby was introduced in 1944, so it's about 20 years older than the 300 Win. And, depending on barrels, my 300 Wby is about 150fps faster than my 300 Win, but like I said depends on the barrel, I'm talking 26 inches BTW, 24inch magnums are dumb IMO. Honestly, I don't think there a thing that one will do that the other won't. 300Win brass is easier to find, but with the 300Wby you get a good excuse to buy that really great Norma brass. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 17:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone have a source for decent K98's? I've been looking for a Wermacht issued, waffen stamped, curved bolt K98 and keep seeing Yugo and Czech reissues. I know that they're the same, but for historic value would like the waffen stamp and matching #'s. Let me know if anyone has a good source.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 18:13:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have had EAW, a german scope base manufacturer, make a forward canted weaver style rail for the TRG. All steel, and it will give you full elevation with a leupold m3 lr.
6 of my buddies shoot that combo now. I am still trying to wear out that old Mauser 86Sr of mine. Must be something about that hammer forged delcour barrel.
Pssst. I even shoot tracers through that !..............*

just wanted to let ya know that


torsten <>
g3land - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 18:21:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Larry: I've had excellent performance from the Nossler hunting bullets, notably the partition and the ballistic tip. I'd use them for everything if they were less expensive and built in the weight I wanted. I've not been so lucky with their match bullets though.

Steve of the not-nato variety: I recall reading something about this in P.O. Aclkey's volumes, but what I took away from it was his end statements. The 30-06 is ever so slightly overbore, the 308 is just right. You can see the case volume / bullet diameter relationship.

Shooter: you've got some big western deer out there if yours dressed at 120. I was used to having them in double digits myself when I lived there, although the good part about Texas is that they give you multiple tags to make up for it ;-) More bangs for more bucks? HA!

PeteR: Very nicely done Comradski! Just out of curiousity, was it 100% from right out of the box, or was there a "break in period" required? When I get back in the black, I'm gonna look for one. They're "order only" items out here though. BAH! Good shooting!

Onezero: I've been told to stay away from barrel bands and been told to not drill holes on a barrel. Hmmm. Not too much of an option left! But I have both, and can't tell the difference. I think it's really up to the smith and what he goes with on a specific taper and diameter. In either case, have it silver soldered. I've had that blankity blank front sight base come loose, and you have to drift out the globe to get to one of the screws. In the case of not much meat at the muzzle, I'd go with a band. Heck, I've got one that has a band and it's somewhat large (no threat to Ken's 308 TOWED!). On the rear sights, I'm not educated enough to say. All of mine are receiver mounted with screws, and I've not had any mounted on a scope base. I've seen 'em both ways, and there's plenty to advocate in both camps.

Now for some pseudo political stuff. I've come across some fresh ATF blatantly illegal activities (AGAIN), some great stuff by Ron Paul on how congress sold out our rights to the WTO (on their terms!!!) and the newest bit of political treason. To read it yourself, click on:
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 18:47:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


Reggarding the Civilian traing issue: 2 things;

FIRST: SNORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







Play Hard! (but pick something useful to do it with)

Mars <>
The "NE" which is , NY Too!!!!, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 19:21:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don't disagree with a thing you said. I wasn't infering that the 300 Weatherby was a take off of the 300WM, if thats how you understood it. The 300WM never came out till around 63. I was just trying to show that two rounds, that are nearly identical ballistically, (In real world, across the cronograph) but one uses at least 10 more grains of powder. As you said overbore is subjective depending on the shooter but in the true bullet to case cap. relationship, with all that math stuff, there are a lot of overbore rounds out there, I would guess.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 20:27:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
Shooter (Texas)- try Sentry Solutions Marinecoat on your gun. It puts kind of a film on the metal to protect it from the elements. It worked for me on snow and sleet but I didn't put it through abuse testing. I was too concerned to let the gun sit after that without cleaning it off.

WES- regarding NVD-you kind of need to be more specific with the rifle/and or scope system you will be using. Obviously an M4 will need a totally different setup than a sniper rifle. There are basically four different setup types to use, each with strong and weak points. I have been playing with and using several different kinds from different manufacturers this year and I have some definate favorites and, more importantly, some words of warning if you are interested..Some of the big manufacturers produce real crappy stuff along with excellent gear.
True they are big bucks, but what a difference!

Take care-Mictac
Mictac <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 22:27:47 (ZULU) (your host address:


Been a while since I posted. Sorry, work has been nuts. Anyway, I was wondering if any of you resourseful types have any blue prints for a .50 caliber worthy action either single shot bolt type or the shell holder bolt type in PDF format. The reason is that I am tinkering with some design ideas that may work out to be more accurate and stronget than the run of the mill type of action. Thanks in advance.

Semper Fi!!!!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 22:45:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

OVERBORE CAPACITY..... I think that weather a cartdidge case is considered as overbore capacity (for a particular bullet diameter)
is dependent upon the propellant being used. There are cartridges
out there today that were considered overbore two decades ago, but
are not thought of in that category in this day and age. As we learn
more about dealing with high-capacity cases, and as new powders hit
the market, cartridges like the 6.5/284 (which used to be called
overbore) are now coming into their own. In my forty years of playing
around with this stuff I have learned that many shooters are very
reactionary about new cartridges and ideas. Not that they don't have
a right to be, but just because the .300WM was way overbore in 1963
doesn't mean that it's that bad now (with modern loadings). I shoot
four .308's and a .300WM for Tac., and hunt big game with rifles of
.270, .30'06, .308, and .300H&H, so I guess that makes me pretty
conservative in choosing my shooting irons too.

Please excuse the drone,
WESTERN SLOPE OF, CO, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 23:03:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gentlemen, especially Byron & Gooch,

Really appreciate the links and the data. That Norma Bullistics Computing Link was especially interesting. (extra thanks Gooch) But, I guess here is my main problem:
I've come across two sets of data the M-852 round. Is it a 168gr Sierra Match King traveling at 2600 fps muzzle velocity or at 2700 fps? My best guess tells me 2600 fps but I'd really appreciate some input from someone in the know. Again, thanks to all who posted for me here and emailed me privately.
Big John <>
Not quite as windy as yesterday Short Creek , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 23:19:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Remington LTR:
Is anyone out there willing and able to email me a copy of the Tactical Shooter article on the Remington Light Tactical Rifle?
Also would like to see other information on it. If the article is online somewhere how bout' a link?
Don Farmer <>
USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 23:39:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

ROCK STOCK with the exception of a pair of custom made Bubinga wood double diamond stocks from Kim Ahrends. Its kinda a reddish orange wood & they match the made to fit Herrett Jordan Troopers on my "N" frame, handmades on my RRRR, Ruuu Bisley, and a couple others lying about.
Handload with 200 gr. LSWC-HP & V-V powder concocted by a Master Bullseye shooter friend for fodder

Haven't killed a prairie dog for twenty five years or so, but have vaporized my fair share as a kid for giggles, along with 13 lined ground squirrels.
Keeping in tone with the lastest Roster- My Last Sodak episode (circa 1970-1971)involved a cross country high speed pursuit/running gunbattle with praire chickens in one of those early 1970 Fords with the B-I-G and FAST V-8's 42_something cubic inches.
Only damn way to keep up with them in late season- Right JR& Pat?

Thanks for Sharing!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 01, 2000 at 23:54:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pete: Congrats on being the torch bearer. You're making us proud, Sparky!! And let us know how the shooting competition goes. Are the spectators going to be issued trauma plates this year?

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 00:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

NVDs - Becarful what job you want the NVD to accomplish. If it is detection fine go for the biggest baddest muther out there. Ifg it is to engage a target then remember that in many situations you can not engage with any real hope of hitting past about 400 meters. It seems that if you can't read wind you can't hit targets because, strange as it may seem, wind moves bullets. Sometimes a little, sometimes and almost always alot at longer ranges. This is where the 300 out performs the 308 handily but alas only extending the range to about 450 and then in light winds. In heavy winds the 308 goes dud at 300 to 350 and the 300 goes dud at about 400. This is a concept that is very hard to get into some of the Occifers heads that want to spend gazzillions on NVDs that can reach out and touch at long ranges, cn't read winds there so can't hit targets there. NOW I know all of you have hit out to 700 and over at night. What was the wind and can you rest your life on the shot? I hve shot at over 700 at night and I would NOT rest my life on it.

Stalks - UGH, now comes the great big depends on the mission, offensive or defensive? Offensive deliberate or offensive opportunity. How long the stay at site and will the run be long or short after the shot. Will I build a hide or will I make a hasty position. I am conducting a sniper ambush as a single team or multiple team in an area or coordinated strike. I am in support of a strike mission and how long am I on target before the strike? I could go on but I will stop before everyone pukes. The short and sweet is that for a stalk I carry the absolute minimum I can get away with. Remember many stalks are actully looking for the FFP and you will occupy that FFP at night since it is in plain view of the enemy or where the enemy is suspected of arriving soon. In the battle of the LBE over vest, I carry neither because none of it will really work for what you need. I have sewn i pocket into my back for my partners gear and he will carry my gear. That way I can access it without doing the funky chicken and looking like the fish out of water. Pete, I know that was like a cop out but it is very ifficult to say I will carry this because it will depend. If the stalk is to be used to locate the hide site then the stalk may take place with only defensive weapons and VERY light with the main gear stored or cached at the ORP (Objective Rally Point since there are UGH!!! civies here!! ;-)) If you want to narrow the perimeters down I could go in more or I caould make a post from hell and discribe the diffeent perimeters and different ways of doing that but I think Ken will kill me on that post. This one is getting too long now.

Green what Green?


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 00:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address:


I spent 3 weeks shootin' Dogs between Interior, and Scenic, and we camped along the "Big White"... the only river that thicker than heavy cream ;((.
Best three weeks in my life.
But, from what I hear now, most of the dogs are gone from that area...

I do, but they're all dirty;))

The 6mm that's in the laminated stock you gave me, is now shooting V-maxs in the teens, and I have a first model, .223 M70 Sharpshooter that is also shooting V-Maxs in the teens, and I've got 1,100 cases for the 6mm, and 1,200 for the M70/CSS... (outside neck turning 1,100 6mm cases really sucked!!)

I'm planing to come out in mid-summer... save some doggies for me... I'll bring beer (with ICE!)!!

Steve (Un-Nato)...
On Overbore, underbore, and "Bore"...
There is no hard, fast definition... but it would fall aproximatly this way...
Cartridges that have "full loads" using normal weight bullets, using powders around 4350 and slower, are overbore... using powders between 4895, and 4350 are "bore", and faster than 4895 are underbore... however none of these terms have any scientific meaning, whatsoever!
They are jibberish used by technically challenged gun-rag writers!

When I was in SoDak... a "four twenty something" engine wasn't good enuff... at 95, we were the slowest junker on the road, even the 18 wheelers passed us... my kinda folks! ;)


PAblito <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 00:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address:


Who said we were on "roads"?, more like cow trails in between the hills on a B.A.R.(Thats BIG ASS RANCH measured in Kilo-acres.) Even a FORD is afster than walking ;-)

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 01:38:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'll second Mictac's post about Sentry Soloutions. I've been using their Smooth Kote for my bores, Tough Cloth for exterior and magazines, and Hi Slip Grease on my handgun slide rails. All their stuff works well. With Smooth Kote in my heavy barrel, it takes longer for the barrel to heat up as much. Good for rapid fire weapons.
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 01:46:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Damn Big John...

Okay I hope this is "in the know" enough for you. According to the Naval Surface Warfare lab the muzzle velocity for M852 is 2622 fps out of a USMC M40A1 with a 24 inch barrel at 25 degrees F, 75 percent RH, 600ft ASL and 30.00 barometric pressure.

Out here
Gooch <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 03:04:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone seen this yet?
Gooch, Rick and others... Care to comment?
(sorry dont remember how to HTML a link, so cut and paste!)
CRC <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 03:21:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


I've seen numerous posts, concerning our recent list spats, about being a 7 x 24 sniper and 85 lb packs...

First, I want to publically apologize to Cyclops. If he can do it, it's not bragging! More power to him. At 49 my days of "heavy humping" are behind me(besides, my wife reminds me I'm not wired for 220 anymore). Hopefully, I pack smarter nowadays, too.

We are all brothers on this list. As such, we can agree to disagree, on occasion. The important thing is that we can all share information and learn from each other. As is intended.

Posts, from a number of members, have come to me privately. Many thanks for those. Hopefully, I'll get to know you all electronically and personally one of these days.

If you're out Oregon way give me a more than happy to buy you a brew.

Semper Fi,


P.S. NOW can we get back to shooting stuff?
Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 03:24:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

REM 700P LTR .308 Questions:


I am about to purchase a REM 700P LTR in .308, an I have a couple of questions that I hope someone will be kind enough to help me with.

Is the DM version still the latest thing? I talked to one dealer who said that Rem is moving away from detachable mags because of feeding problems. Some of these feeding probs. are discussed at Is this true; do they make them both ways, and which is most desireable?

Also, what about different barrel twist rates? Are they made with different twist rates like the PSS or is there just one? What is it? Which is better?

Sure wish Rem would post info on their website.

Anyone found the best deal, or place to purchase? When I find my deal, I'll post to let everyone know where to buy if desired.

This looks to be quite a fine rifle for the money. Thanks in advance for all who post.

John Frazier

Lawrenceville, GA, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 03:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi Tech Ammunition?

Has anyone gotten/used mil. surplus components from them? The have 7.62 brass, 173gr. FMJ bullets, and surplus powder. For 1000 brass, 1000 bullets, and 8 lbs. of powder it's $179. I'm weighing whether to get this (and reload), or get M852 @ $225 a 460 rd can through CMP. Anyone who has used their components, please tgive me insight. Thank you!
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 04:14:02 (ZULU) (your host address:


That should say; They have
Richard Stark <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 04:17:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Richard Stark and Surplus components:

The brass has almost certainly been run through an M60 or other machine gun and had thus probably been badly stretched, limiting its useable life by a good bit. The bullets may or may not have been run through a resizing die after pulling, so they may or may not shoot as well as new 173gr. Match bullets. Either way they are not to be comapred with the 168gr Matchkings used in M852 ammunition. The powder works about as well as any other IMR 4895.

BTW, I note that Hi-Tec lists the 173gr. bullets as being "M1 Ball Flat-Base". These may come from M1 ball ammunition and not from Match ammo...may be a rather different animal, quality-wise. Also, I had long assumed that the bullet used in the Cartrige, Ball, Caliber .30 M1 was very similar to that later used in .30-06 and 7.62 NATO match ammo, but I have since been told otherwise. This stuff may be of little to no use for long-range precision work. Caveat emptor.

I feel a better bet for match work would be to get a few hundred pieces of better brass (Lapua) and a thousand new Matchkings. What the hell, spend a few more pennys and get some 175s. The surplus powder does not work as well as Varget, but then what does? :)

Exception: if ammo is to be one-time-use with brass not to be recovered, weight-sorted machine gun brass is the way to go.

Frazier and DM Rem 700s:

They have apparently been dropped completly. No major loss to the world.

Stuck with a 700PSS DM, and looking for a fix.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 04:53:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone had the opportunity to handle the CZ 550 heavy barreled 308 varmit rifle? Comments? I haven't had any experience with centerfire CZ rifles but the 22's have a reputation as tackdrivers.
Ed <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 05:36:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
My most sincere apologies if my persistence has been pestering. Its just that very recently I was shooting some of the tightest groops I ever done, then all a sudden, I was printing the same groups, but with a couple of flyers off to the left. I guess that I was trying to find a mathmatical or meteorlogical answer as to why. Whenever there is a miss involved with proven rifle there's gotta be a reason for it. I was drawing off the collective expertise here. Surely it could not be the loose nut behind the trigger!

Can't tell you about the reloading part. But I love those M-852 Rounds! I think you would too.

Again, thanks to all that have assisted me with my little crisis here. If my posts sounded condescending, please forgive me. I have often been accused of having the sensitivity of a pit bull. I shall now revert back to my lurking.
Big John <>
The wind has calmed down now in Short Creek, Ohio, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 06:24:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the chicken shoot thing,it sounds fun but can't find the rules if
you show up with a 338 would it be considerd overdressed? possibly
even tacky? or should one stay with a 308? quite casual and fits in most anywhere. I was also wondering if you are allowed any FOWLing

I E mailed you some information on hunting bullets I use in place
of MatchKings with good results, I hope you got it because I have
not established a good rapor with this machine yet.
Hope everyone has a good day.

Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 06:27:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Went out Monday - a little Rice gun and some M4 work.
Tried the M4 off my ruck and found it was almost 12" higher than if I shot off the mag, never thought the little barrel would flex that much, but got a beauty group at 400m - four rounds inside 1.5" using SS109 - then inspired by that I tried to shoot it at the 900m. Anyway I failed my Mike Miller emulation BIG TIME. I ended up aiming the ACOG almost 50' up a tree behind the butts to get hits on the tgt.
I have Recon Econ's little SOTIC Data book but it only gives drop to 700m (22 MOA off the 300m zero - or 26.5 MOA total M855 @ 2916fps /59F) The ACOG only has range lines till 600 - has anyone done any long range stuff w/ an M4 and SS109? Just looking for some quick and dirty stuff for a start point.

Were can I get some Green?
Kevin <>
Canada - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 06:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick B: Size of your post

Rick - if it takes 20 'page downs' to read your post - then so be it. I don't care about size of a post - especially if folks can benefit from it. If they dont - then they can 'page down' right on past it

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 12:59:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Big John,
I may have missed your first question but if you were shooting great groups with the M852 then started to get some unexplained flyiers this is not uncommon with this ammo. I have shot arond 600 rounds of it and have had some near one hole groups, then the same ammo, the same day, will print around a .7 for whatever reason. (Damn sure wan't me)HA. I have checked bullet run out on it and some of it is perfect and some of it has had several thousands run out but then when I sorted it off and was going to prove that was the problem I shot the best groups with the bullets with the most run out. (And people wonder why Iam bald!!)

It could be the brass, I have found brass to be my biggest cause of flyiers. I used to shoot LC Match in all my 308s and when I started shooting the Rem BR brass it turned a .6 VS into a consistant .4 rifle. I have found the same with my 260 going from Remington brass to Lapua brass. (I sort and weigh all my brass and clean up the necks with a light neck turning) Once I went to the Lapua brass none of the above was necessary. Hope this helps if that was your problem.

I told you you would love the 6MMBR, I have never shot a more accurate rifle. They will shoot nearly anything well and some things out of sight!!!
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 15:22:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

What size wooden dowl is needed to rotate the front dovetail ring in place. I have a 30mm tube and need something smaller than 1 inch.

Jason <>
USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 16:32:15 (ZULU) (your host address:


FOWLing shots?!? Ugh. Pretty funny, but UGH! =)

onezero <>
Don't Tread On Me, in the, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 16:50:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Got a quick question for you guys.
I like to laminate and tape my elevation and windage charts to the stock of my Rem 700 for easy access.
After a few revisions (and re-taping) i am left with the inevitable tape goo on my synthetic stock.
What can i use to remove the goo, without damaging my stock? (it is not painted) Im afraid i will liquify it if i am not careful with my chemical selection.
Can i use regular old Hoppes, WD40, or what?
Jeff <>
San Jose, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 17:23:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks for the post' guys. It probably would be better for me to get the cans of M852. Maybe I'll get some of that Radway Green L2A2 too, just so I have some ammo to burn up , for those days when I just feel like shooting.
Richard Stark <>
Why can't ammo cost $.10 a round?, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 17:39:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Change that to "why can't all ammo cost $.10" because Radway Green @ $56 for a 400+ round can is almost $.10 a round.
Richard Stark <>
Why can't all ammo cost $.10 a round?, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 17:45:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Has anyone fired one of the new Thompson .45 carbines? I know the original WWII ones are supposed to be good, but how are the new ones?
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 18:13:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Check out

Look at the "Fun Pics" anticipated vs. actual recoil and;
under 'Products" check out the 'Nyte Sites' and .50 caliber entry system.

Its hilarious.


Jeff <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 18:21:31 (ZULU) (your host address:


On the "Thompson" clones.

For the price, I thought they were poorly made chunks of doo-doo. My loacl gunshop has a couple and I handled one. For what they asked for them, I quickly put it down and started to stroke the M1D Supermatch instead. As with the Unertl clones that are coming out, the .45 Thompson clones would be cool for nostalgia's sake, but I have other guns to buy first.

Jeff, use goo-gone, it shouldn't melt your stock, unless it has a painted finish over the actual stock material.

Semper Fi, 5 days untill the B-day!!!

Kush out
Kush <>
Great white buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 18:23:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Whoops, forgot one other thing...
Like the idiot that i am i lost, er, misplaced the instructions for my Mil Dot Master.
How can i estimate the range of a small (9" long) item at further distances? I remember there was a way, but i cant remember it.

While i am sitting at work slacking off...
Undude, i notice that you do not tape the elevation and wind data to your rifle. Do you keep it somewhere else, or do you somehow remember it? Is there a better way then taping it to my stock? No, i dont care how ugly my current method is, it works for me. Besides it takes attention away from my ugly mug!
Jeff <>
San Jo, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 19:09:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff in Kali,
For a 9" object, use 18" and divide the distance by 2 or use 36" and divider the distance by 4. Use whichever is easier. You can mil larger objects by a similar method. Also, goo gone is awesome stuff. I haven't had it harm any finishes.

I like you definition of underbore and overbore. Very similar to what I came up with, only better.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 20:11:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

One of my main interests in them was the fact that I can get 30rd mags for $9.
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Thursday, November 02, 2000 at 20:23:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Andy and I just finished experimenting with MAGPULs on our AR magazines. We have decided not to use them. They seem like a neat idea in theory but in practice they made closing our magazine pouches a real chore. On top of this the loops on the MAGPULs got squashed in the pouch during storage. To add insult to injury after forcing the magazine pouch closed and latching it we discovered that the female portion of the pouch latch got loose from the stress. Are we missing something here? If so what's the skinny on these little devices?

Ref: Jungle Boots

I've got a pair of brand new 13W issue (green) jungle boots. They're too wide for me. Anybody want 'em. I'd trade them for some once fired Federal .308 brass. I know this should be on the Emporium but what the heck..

Ref: New Mexico Training

Is anybody from the Northeast going to Mike's training in New Mexico? I'm near Rochester, NY and would consider teaming up.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 00:11:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC, "Cartoon Character" I dont know if I should laugh with you or while holding your head in a toilet. LOL

Rick, next we will want the meaning of life in two words or less.

Jeff, from San Jose, the rifles and scopes you see me with at Sac are always for fun and the scopes are pulled off so many times I dont have any set data. I use the range mostly for testing new stuff and work off comp data tables. For real I do this: I have one set of actual use tables taped to the stock. One set laminated and in breast pocket. One set in my field note book. Three in total because I just figure I will lose atleast two.
MikeMiller <>
`, Calif, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 00:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick, next we will want the meaning of life in two words or less.***

Well, I'm not Rick but I'll guess "More guns". I also like to laminate a range data table and insert it in a button closed pocket I've sewn on the left inside forearm of my ghillie. I find that the one on the gun butt is always getting lost or fragged somehow or gets a hole punched in it and then the 3x5 card turns to goo when it rains. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 00:40:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


I was talking to a guy the other day and a question came up about laser range finders. The question was can a laser range finder give you away in a hide? Anyone care to tackle this one? I said "Anything is possible..."

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 00:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin- re: the magpulls- did you have them in a vest pouch or a M-16 style belt pouch? I was going to order some next week but if they wont fit in a vest-no way. Thanks for the heads up.

How much brass do you want? Now nobody start yelling at me but
I just toss our brass out. I do not reload and no one I know does either. All federal match too...

I may be going to Mike's class to see what I can pick up also, depending on my work schedule and vacation days left in July. I hear his class is not like Storm where the guys go to pick up sheep...but he's willing to change!!!LOL..I'm from the darn liberal state of Conn and one of those stuck up LE you might have to lower your standards. But I am voting Bush if that counts.


Mictac <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 00:59:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


>>"...can a laser range finder give you away in a hide?"<<
Yes, and this was just discussed on thes page do a "search" for laser, and read it.

Scout me up a virgin dog town, and you can shoot the Rem, and drink my beer ("Beaver lite")...


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 01:28:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin and MicTac, Re: magpulls

There is an alternative to magpulls that will not hinder your use in pouches or vests.

Look on the floorpate of your AR mags. Near the rear of the floorplate there is a round hole.
What you do is take a loop of 550 cord, gut it, fold a loop and make a knot on the end with two tails.
Dissassemble the magazine and take the metal floorplate and feed the loop through the hole on the floorplate so the knot is on the inside of the magazine.
Re-assemble the magazine and you will have a loop of 550 cord sticking out of the botton of your mag to pull it out out of your pouches. Elementary my dear watson!

If you want me to I will send you a pic of that to do, I have all my mil-spec mags done in this fashion, no prob to fire out a digital snap shot.

Semper Fi

Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 01:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

thanks- got taught that by a Sgt before...but herin lies my problem. I am attempting to get a better grip on magazine removal from a body armor/load carrying vest. The 550 cord lies flat and, obviously while better than nothing, I would prefer something that I can grasp a little easier. Thats why the magpulls with their raised tab looked good. Do you know of a way to make the 550 loop "stand up"? Or failing that- ever use the "riggers tape" on the side of the mag for a pull grip?

Thanks in advance...
Mictac <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 01:52:21 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have seen heavy duty rubber bands used before, they are not as big as magpulls but can be looped around the mag with out increasing the dimensions of the mags like MagPulls.

Hope this helps

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 02:02:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Correction on the magpull alternative,

The heavh rubberband can be looped around the floorplate, not the magazine. This way, the rubberband would pop up upon openeng the pouch

Elvis has left the building

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 02:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address:


Does anyone know what kind of velocity loss you would get going from a 26" barrel Rem PSS .308 to a 20" barrel Rem 700P LTR .308? I have estimates so far of 80 fps to 300 fps.

Does anyone know the real answer?????????????


Lawrenceville, GA, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 02:26:57 (ZULU) (your host address:


If you double tape your mags or use those DPMS clips run para cord out the bottom of one to the bottom of the other. knot it on the otherside of the floorplate and you have a loop that wont come out. you can grab the clips real easy this way. If you want it to stand up more put and inch or so of gun tape on the para cord as it exits the floor plate.

Come on Mike - I need some long range M4 data
Kevin <>
Canada - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 02:39:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the AR Mag pulls, when the Gun Show comes to San Francisco, I will pick up some. I dont know the company but it seems like 2 for 5.00 is the cost. They are heavy duty and work well, or you can do what I do. Take some nylon webbing, cut and burn the ends and tape them on. I just happen to know a guy with lots of webbing.

Kevin, long range M4 data with SS109. Use the dial to 600 yards, turn the site all the way to the top for 850 yards. My secret is out. I use hold over for wind. Fire and adjust and I mean adjust for wind In New Mexico. I had about 20' of hold for wind. LOL

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 02:57:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin R. Mussack:

MagPulls: Some vests and pouches are not recommended for them. See their web site at: www/

The vests I have found to not work are those non-milspec types that have short pouch covers. Milspecs have a taller top and work fine. What's milspec? beats me, just look for the taller pouch covers or use 550 cord.

Hank <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 03:04:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

John you should not loose more than the 80fps depending on the powder it could be as little as 50fps.

Rick; Man did I forget to tell you about the green stuff! Man so sorry!

Been gone 800 miles today burying a old hunting buddy and good friend today. See you Good ole boys tomorrow when I fell better.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 05:28:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looking to purchase a GPS unit in the near future, i know compasses are still a great backup but what does anyone recommend looking for QUALITY but dont want to donate a kidney to get one. Thanks for the help and keep the groups tight and the shots long.
7mag <>
Pa, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 05:28:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
MicTac, Kevin from up North etc.

If you can get away to New Mexico this summer I strongly recommend it. I went last year and had a really great time.

I have formed some really great friendships from that adventure, and I look forward to more as well as improving my shooting skill.

Mr. Jarrett is the truly the kind of guy that movies are made about!

James, Mike, R.B and Bob put on a great course. I can honestly say that my shooting improved significantly. I certainly pushed my self harder due to the other great participants that were there. We even had a professional glider pilot who whupped our butt with his wind reading skills! (he also ended up getting top shooter!)

Many more other noteworthy incidents occured, but those are best left for discussion over Bravo Brew! Mr. Bravo better go even if I end up mailing him hops and barley for the adventure!


Michael <>
Go Bush Go, CA, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 07:25:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the GPS thing. I know it isn't at the quality end of the scale but Casio have brought out a GPS watch. Knowing how you boys like new toys and hate carrying extra weight, you might want to take a look.

While I'm here, can anyone point me to a good starting point for a Berger 80gr VLD in 223 with Varget. I figured about 22 grains would be a reasonable place to start but I can't find any data anywhere.
Usual American disclaimers apply, if I blow it up it ain't your fault!

Play nice!

Mark D
Mark Dougan <>
London , UK - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 10:34:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have shot Varget from 23.0 gr. all the way up to 24.5 in Lake City and Win cases using the Sierra/Berger/JLK 80's. If you have a short throat (sub 2.450" O.A.L.) beware of pressures.

Out of a 20" barrel AR15, we get very close to 2800fps with 24.5 gr. Varget. That is on the upper end of the scale with a non-moly bullet, and primers begin to get restless. With a bolt gun and a longer barrel I would imagine you could get the same or better velocity with a lighter load. We have found that to be competitive with the .308's (in terms of wind drift), the 80 gr. bullet needs to be at or above 2800 fps.

Hope this helps, feel free to contact me off line if you need any input on .223 loads.

Good Shooting,
Emil Praslick <>
Columbus, GA, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 13:20:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike S. is displaying his typical modesty. No-one whupped his butt. He was barely edged out. And he hit his prarie-rat at 380 yards. Those weren't "gun writer" yards either. Pissed me off.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 13:34:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question to all.

I was looking through the latest edition of Shotgun News and I saw that they were selling a "Romak 3". It seemed to be a copy of the Dragunov. My question is, what is the difference between this "Romak 3" and a Dragunov?

Andy Mussack <Long>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 13:43:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

PSS/LTR velocities..John I get 2590fps from my PSS & 2472fps from my LTR. Ten shot averages with Fed 308/168..118fps less in the 20" bbl. LTR/DM... Thankfully onlyw offers the LTR with a floorplate..My DM model has a habit, if only loaded with three rounds, of occasionally having the round being fed releasing early on closing the bolt.. If I load the third round in the mag and then push the top round down again against the pressue of the mag spring it doesnt do it. I have learned to live with the problem...I also have the DM taped in place so it doesnt fall out or get left somewhere. Markwell out
markwell <>
Seneca, WV, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 15:25:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
The biggest difference between the Romak and the Druganov is that the Romak uses an AK type Bolt/Gas system, whereas the Druganov is it's own type (though based on the AK). There are a few other differences, but that is the biggest and the one that effects accuracy the most. Hope this helped.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
OP, Fl, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 15:26:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Question, I just purchased a Mauser Model 96 w/ a straight pull back bolt action in 25-06. I checked on Mauser's web site, but they just had the basics about the rifle, so I emailed them and they said that they no longer make it. Is anyone know anything about this Rifle? I plan on shooting varmints and possible deer with it, any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Joey <>
Spencer, WV, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 15:34:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am interested whether or not the Leatherwood scope that Navy Arms sells is any good or not. I am going to buy a .308 enfield and I was looking for a good scope to put on it. If any one can tell me anything about the Leatherwood scope it would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know all of the good and bad points about the scope. Thanks a lot. Paul
Paul Lauer <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 16:42:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am interested whether or not the Leatherwood scope that Navy Arms sells is any good or not. I am going to buy a .308 enfield and I was looking for a good scope to put on it. If any one can tell me anything about the Leatherwood scope it would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know all of the good and bad points about the scope. Thanks a lot. Paul
Paul Lauer <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 16:44:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

After going through the archives and tracking some threads, I understand the reference to (please forgive me Pablito) 'nato' and decided to change my handle to 'Duman' (dew-man), a nickname from college. Sure beats the hell out of 'Puma'. :-o

It's a priviledge to have experienced people answer my (often silly-assed) questions, and clarify what is fact, opinion, or 'magazine-article-writer-that-only-knows-how-to-print-crap' garbage. Books are fine, but don't convey experience, common sense, and wisdom. It's guys like Pablito, CDC, Bravo, Mike Miller, etc., etc., that will keep some new guy from doing something stupid and getting killed.

If I sound formal or stiff, it's only because I work in the Fortune-500, where the rat's in the warehouse get treated better than most people do. I try not to offfend anyone, but am not afraid to mix it up with someone either. I choose to stick with what I know, which is not much based on the posts of many of the Rosterfarians.

Y'all have a great thing going, thank you for letting me tag along.


BTW, I prefer my beer cold, in a fancy bar, the kind of place where they hose the floor off in the morning. :-) Mud-wrestling is a plus.

Duman <>
If you don't vote for Bush, vote for Nader !!, God's Country, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 16:48:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Works for me... but hose the floor off in the morning???
Man, you drink in some highbrow establishments!!


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 17:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address:


I need urgently yr judgement abt the LRF800,does it work right ?

Thanks and ciao
G.I.Joe <>
Italy - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 18:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Duman: I'm the second string. Maybe third. Mike, Rick, Gooch, Dave, Jerry, and a couple others are the wise men.

Maybe not Mike.

Just kidding UnDude.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 18:19:09 (ZULU) (your host address:


It would appear you were too ill to go to school today. Are you sure you are well enough to be posting to the Duty Roster? We'll talk about it when I get home.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 19:21:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Before this gets out of hand, The powder you use is a determining factor on how much velocity you loose when you shorten the barrel.

The smaller the bore the more pronounced the losses also. The losses on a .223 have nothing at all to do with what they will be on a .308.

In general the smaller the bore the more you will lose. The more powder you burn the more it will also affect the percentage of loss.

If you are using 115 fps in a .308 from 26 to 20
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 19:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Something shorted my post.
If your getting 115fps loss it might be wise to consider changing powder to get it back. It's possible you have a pet commercial load and don't want too and that's fine if you accept the losses.

It's not a good idea to shorten Magnum Rifle barrels or 22-250, 220 swift.
The .243 and other .308 class cases can be shortened without large losses in velocity.
Typical losses for 168 grain match kings in .308 with 45 grains of VARGET run about 50 to 70fps.
.223 losses are much higher. Be advised that bullet weight is also a factor in what percentage you will lose. I read somewhere the other day that a rule of thumb is 50 fps for each barrel length. There is no rule of thumb my grasshoppers.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 19:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address:


T-VILLE, GA., USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 20:17:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito' you are the man when it came to those figures on the M3LR for the 300WM. I finally sighted in my rifle and after I had it in at 100 yards using FGMM 190's I cranked the elevatrion to 400 on the 300WM cam and took aim on the steel buffalo at 400 yards we have at our club for buffalo shoots. I let one fly and the next thing I heard was music to my ears...CLANG!! And the mark on the steel was exactly where I was aiming at. Then I turned it down to 300 and hit at 300. I will never doubt you again! ;) Will you be making it to the IDPA this Sunday? If so make sure to bring a jacket, not just because of the weather but because you'll need it for concealment. Thanks for the scope info.

Rob <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 20:32:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the Magpulls:

Try taking an old bicycle inner tube and cut an 1 to 2 inch wide piece out of it, just like a big black rubber band.
Take off the bottom plate and loop the inner tube piece around it.
Replace plate.
It should stick up better than a rubber band would and you can cut it to your own width.

For us, it seemed to work better than the paracord/duct tape deal did.

Just another idea.

CRC <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 20:43:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the feedback on the cam... I think you will find (if your MV is 2950), that you will ring steel out to 1000 yds with a dead on hold, and justr a few feet over, at 1100, and 1200 yds.
I'm building a 300WM this winter (my dealer want's to know when I'm picking up the barreled action... when I get some money!), and I got a MK-M3 from Kush for it...
No woinder me and my rugrat are always on macaroni and cheese ;((

I'm hoping to make it on Sunday... I'll confirm with e-mail... I will wear a Tux for concealment (HA!)...
I'm goning to bring the Russian, if it's OK... He's a race gun junkie that I'm trying to convert... he has a Glock that's box stock!

Busted... but welcome! You're amoung friends.

Cut Andy a little slack, remember when you were his age... ground him for just two months ;) HA!

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 20:45:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know who makes the CFP-90 (the newer ones)pack or where I can buy parts for it. I've got one being shipped to me but I need to get a belt for it.

D5 <>
Jacksonville, Fl., USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 20:54:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, (OK, I use the term loosely)

Good Day...My 6.5 Forster pilot finally arrived. Will have some data for you folks soon and can move the project ahead into the reloading phase.

UPS man showed with 1K of Sierra 175's from Otto Weber (OK Weber, Inc.) Otto has them for $154.00 per thousand plus shipping. Haven't seen them cheaper anyhwere.

Give him a ring if your interested.

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 23:57:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin / Andy: You two are a model for me. Personally, I *CAN'T WAIT* until my son is old enough to do these things with. I really hope to meet you guys soon, been told that you're both great. Don't be too hard on him Kevin ;-) Heck, didn't we all do MUCH worse back then? But welcome Andy, good to have the next generation aboard!

Duman: I agree with CDC, he's second or third string. HA! Just joking there bud. Really, I'm no pro, and never try to make myself out to be. There's a reason I call the UnDude, 'Lito, and Dave "Patrons", and it's meant whole heartedly. Oh, and let's not forget Master Rick!
As for the beer, well, I prefer my Bravo Brew ice chest cold, in the company of great shooters and friends. Most of whom live here.

Michael: you're being too humble. Don't let this guy fool you folks, he's a hell of a shot. And I get my hops from right down the street from you, SOCAL grown. As I was telling partner Jim today, it looks like I'm the designated brewer for these classes. And I like it that way. I'm bringing extra, as it seems this class will either be larger or already full! In any case, assuming I've got a place in the bunkhouse, there'll be at least 4 more cases "delivered". All the best my friend!

MicTac: Hope you make it out there too. The "extortion brew" is stacking up! HA!

PeteR: On the Fords, I can't let that one slip. A 42X Ford. Only three come to mind. 427, 428, 429. 427 sideoiler, knocked Ferarri off the tracks in the "Ford-Ferarri wars". Bill Cosby wrote about his, one of two that left the factory with one supercharger per 4V carb, in "200MPH!". Nothing to sneeze at! The 429 set the lands world speed record for a production car in the BOSS MACH1 format. The standard "weak sister" version made more HP, even in thrust to weight ratio than a current supercharged Vette. Which leaves the 428 which came in "fast", "police intercepter fast", and "scarrrry fast" (standard, CJ, SCJ). I think you see my logic!

The class. What can I say? I *COULD* use my week vacation anywhere. I could go to most any of the schools in the US that I would want to. So where am I going? I'm gonna go and spend it with Mike and James, not to mention a lot of other GREAT guys. In my opinion, you could do a lot worse, but I'm not too sure you could do any better. If you're thinking of a shooting school, well, this is my suggestion. What Mike lacks in beauty he makes up for in teaching ability ;-) HA! DOUBLE HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, November 03, 2000 at 23:59:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, bring anyone you want. The more people the better. Also if I didn't tell you before it's $10 to shoot the match. It's about par with others I've been to. I'm a safety officer and I still have to pay even though I work the match which kinda blows but it counts towards my club work for the year so it all works out in the end. The last time I'll be checking my mail is about 7am tomorrow morning before I go to work so if you have any questions try to get them to me tonight. Hope to see you there.

Rob <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 00:31:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Someone was looking for a USMC Redfield in green the other day and there is one listed in the Oct.13 issue of Gun List.$795 ph#217-625-8335
BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 01:23:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Guys I need some help here. Coyotes seem to be establishing a voting population locally and I have a stripped A3 PWA upper/lower I am going to build up. With yotes in mind- can someone recomend a good barrel and scope? Thanks.
Bill Moore <>
Not a carpenter but played one all day today!, Exhausted, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 01:39:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
G.I. Joe,
My first Leica LRF 800 sucked big time. It would not range very far at all. I sent it back to the factory in response to a factory recall that I learned about from this site. When I finally got a chance to test the new and improved version I was impressed.

It actually works now! I was able to range trees, rocks, in bright sunlight and unsupported all the way out to 878 yards. I actually really want the Geovid, but that is a wee bit more money. The LRF is clearer and smaller than the Bushnell, but the Bushnell 1000 is a pretty good item. As a few of us have posted before, at night looking through NVD it looks as if you are holding up a highway flare!

Bravo and CDC, thank you for the compliments. I felt like I hit the lotto when I zapped that PD at 387 yards. (probably the same amount of luck involved as well!) LOL!
Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 02:27:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill Moore: A note on coyote scopes. I don't know what your terrain is like, but most people use more power than they need. I thing a 2.5X8 loopy VariX-III is plenty big. It'll do you if you're calling or shooting over a carcass.

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 02:40:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just recieved my check from the Oakland Raider's for an injury I recieved while playing in 1999. I finally have the money to buy a few of the guns I have always wanted. I called H-S and order a .308 HTR(Heavy Tac Rifle) with a 24" barrel. I have until monday to decide what twist I want (1 in 10 or 1 in 12). I need some expert advice on this matter. I looked at a back issue of TS but I still can't decide. I will most likely shoot the 175 SMK's. But, I may want to go sub-sonic with a scilencer someday and also want to be able to shoot some larger SMK's. I know the military uses a 1 in 11 but H-S only offers a 10 and 12 twist. What would be best all around? Will 10 be too fast(less accurate) if I decide to shoot 168 SMK's? I also started a 300 Ultra Mag HTR with a 26" barrel. I wanted it to hunt elk and also as a long range sniper weapon. Have I commited a SniperCountry SIN by choosing the 300UM over the 300WM? Every time I ask questions about the 300UM someone barks at me! Thanks, Daren
Daren Yancey <>
Idaho, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 03:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

I suggest that you get the .308, and shoot the piss out of it. Work on good solid shooting techniques, then get the .300 WM. That was what I did, I am just a neophyte, and new to all of this, but you don't want to develop the dreaded flinch! Do that and you will be all over the place. The .300WM ammo is a lot easier to get (read cheaper!) that the Ultra Mag. I would hate to see you spend to much $ initially, even if you are flush right now. Practice, practice, practice, then buy a lot of guns from good honest rifle builders! (At least that was what I did!)

Just my Friday night 2 cents
Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 03:56:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Darren: I went with the 1:10 and haven't been happier. I run the 175's and they shoot great. This is coming from someone that had to be "talked" into trying them, 'cause I was die-hard 168 SMK's. I won't be going back, and don't see why anyone would. Give it a go, and be happy.

Good friend Michael: Did I get that right? You're ranging stuff to 900 yards in the bright daylight? Wow. You weren't joking, that thing improved dramatically! Are we talking small objects like, say, a 12" round object? HA! If so, well, I might have to put that on "the list".

Well, I'm going to go post the next segment of the Braun Report on the Patriot site. Seems there's another stand off near Waco, unassociated with the Koresh debacle, and this one isn't getting any press. I *DO* wonder why! If you're interested, try clicking on:
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, where the atf tramples on the rights of the subjects, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 04:12:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Heres a new one....
ID: DMSD9806539
Released to Public
Service Depicted: Marines
Staff Sgt. Ken Kirk from the Special Marine Air Ground Task Force, shoots the M40A1 sniper rifle from a helicopter. The rifle is connected to a Gyro-Stabilizer to help steady the rifle. Urban Warrior is the U.S. Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory`s series of limited objective experiments examining new urban tactics and experimental technologies.
Date Shot: 22 JAN 1998Camera Operator: LANCE CPL. MICHELLE L. UNDERWOOD
Click on the "CRC" below for the link to the page then enter the picture ID# DMSD9806539 in the search box. Hit return and click on the thumbnail to get a bigger better picture.

Have problems? Email me and I will send you a copy of the pic.

If that rifle is "Gyro-Stabilized" (the black item under the forearm?) to help steady it, my only question is wheres the "Gyro-Stabilizer" for the shooter? (ha!)

Anyone with any ideas care to comment on this? Anyone ever seen/shot such a rig?

CRC <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 04:37:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

More photos of this "Gyro-Stabilized" rig...

Same site as my last post, only search for picture numbers:



under the search page.

CRC <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 04:55:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Daren: Someone asked Ranger Rick to give the meaning of life in two words. I can't speak for him, but my entry is: "175 SMK".

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 05:11:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, I suggest that you give the LRF800 a try. If I get any money from anybody for any injuries I ever got I will buy the Geovid and sell you the LRF800 cheap!
michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 05:34:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
On the subject of boots. Try a pair of Hermann Survivors, they are light, water proof to the top, have an agressive sole, and are as comfortable as your favorite tennis shoes.
John <>
selma, NC, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 07:43:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

THE 42_ SOMETHING... wasn't meant as a slur on FORDs, I just can't remember after all these years, and yes there was a discussion at the time about the acceleration and leaping gulches with a single bound.


Nothing the matter with the .300RUM other than the greater expense and potential to pick up a flinch. If you played football, getting hit hard should be old hat.

Start with the .308

(1-10" twist should be fine - Wheres Barrel Meister JR when you need him?!!!!!)

and 175's and put a couple thousand rounds downrange then move up to the .300WM. Heck by the time you're there we'll be bitching about the .308 vs. 300WM vs.300 RUM vs. 300WSM vs......

Sir Wes,

Glad you finally got the 6.5mm pilot! Isn't the shank diameter like .185" diameter x .420" long? I missed the original post but have made a few on my mini metal butcher in the dungeon. Keep us posted

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 11:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

My last few 308's were 12"... but the last gun I built, I ordered a 10", and couldn't be happier... puts 175's and 190's into one little hole.
I wouldn't EVER put together a .308 on a 12" again. When the military went to the 175 SMK, they went to the 11.25" 'cuz the 12" was marginal... the 10" will do the 190 SMK's very well, also.

Nice picture site. Those Gyro-stabilizers are made up here in connecticut (at around $4-5000 a pop).
Pablito <>
Lookin' in the closet for my gun fightin' rig, cuz tomorrow I'm gonna get washed and waxed ;(( in the good ol', USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 11:55:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

To heck with the gyro-stabilizer. I like the scope on that puppy. I also noticed they use Leupold base and rings on the rifle.

Next the rifles will have laser ranged auto compensated reticle. Just more crap to break.

I noticed in Shot Gun News that USO is selling some of the USMC M-40A1 scopes. Anybody know anything about them? I guess what I'm asking is are they worth 2500 bucks.

Cory <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 13:40:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Meaning of life - TO ENJOY

You guys get to fill in whatever you think needs added. I just enjoy all things rational.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 14:40:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cuzbone and all,

I had a pair of the Herman Survivor's that I bought in '72 for the princely sum of $49.00. As an E-4 that was damn near 25% of my monthly salary. They were green pebble tanned leather and lined with soft glove leather. You could wear the damn things with no socks. Finally wore out after 25 years. Went to buy another set and was shocked at the poor quality. I've been told that someone "bought the name" and quality went to hell.

I'm currently using a set of Danner Acadia's and am nominally happy with them...until I find something better.

This goes along with the quality of the Jungle Boots we are issued. I had my Vietnam era sets that were smooth as a babies behind inside. The new ones are not near the quality of the old.

(the old guy wishing for a return of things worthwhile)
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 15:30:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


On the 1:10" twist issue for .308 Winchester.

The only 1:12 twists I own are factory barrels (Rem 700 Varmint Spec.). All others are 1:10" match grade tubes.

I've been told the 1:12" is more accurate with 168 and 175 grain bullets. You coulnt' prove it by me. At least I can't shoot the difference.

The 1:10" twist lets me shoot 190's magnificently. Which is one reason I use that twist. I've not been disappointed.

I have a 1:11" Obermeyer barrel in the safe along with another 1:10". When I shoot my current barrel out I'll retube with the 1:11" and use it for 175's exclusively. I am one happy camper.

For my money, if your building a gun, in .308, choose a 1:10" twist. You won't be disappointed.

By the way, my 6.5 X .284 sports a 1:8" twist Hart Barrel.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 15:39:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

PeteR: sorry for jumping to conclusions. The "project car", which at this rate will be done by the time my son graduates high school, is a Shelby Cobra S/C. Not the Mustang, the real deal. Most of it comes from Texas, "Lone Star". New 427 side oiler stripped blocks in aluminum are $5K. Too much for me. So a 429 in something better than SCJ guise will take it's place. I fell in love with the machine that knocked Ferarri off the tracks, as it was the first car I'd ever been in (as a passenger even) where one could stomp the gas pedal and URK!! tires at 70 on the highway in 4th gear! Now, for a car that should have a final weight right around 2500, you think 700 HP is too much? ;-) Sorry about the non-topic post. At least it wasn't politically motivated, right? HA!
Brew Master Bravo - Patritos USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 15:47:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
Help needed .
Does anybody know where i can get my hands on a BARR + STROUD M250 or M500 RANGEFINDER in good condition ???
london, uk - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 16:41:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
While we are on the boot thing:

Too many choices, have to upgrade. Broken-in boots are like broken-in underwear, you just hate to get rid of them, but there comes that time!

Need three types of boots:
Stand hunting in -20 to 20 degrees,
Hiking/hunting for same temp,
Hiking/hunting/workin cool to hot weather.

Considering the LaCrosse 1300-Gram, Rocky Deerhunter Extreme 1600-gram or the Georgia Ice Trekker 1600-gram. All are Goretex.

Considering the Danner Canadian or Predator for hiking/hunting in cold weather. Both have 600-gram and are all leather.

Considering the Danner Ft. Lewis or Rainforest Workboot for cool to hot weather hiking/hunting/work. Again all leather and both have 200-gram.

I have a concern about the 9" and 10" boots and will have to try on before I purchase. I have a fallen right arch and must have a good molded insole until I get the time to have it rebuilt, ouchies!

Your comments are appreciated. No need to clutter the site with your comments, just email me if you like!

Still looking for comments on a .375 improved!

Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 16:48:51 (ZULU) (your host address:


Clayton, N.C., USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 16:55:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yancy, I think that you should just shoot your .308, and give your 300 UM to one of your good buddies that knows how to handle such a weapon. I think that he can handle it very well. He will even let you look at it once in a while. By the way, are you going to wake up today so we can go kill those foxes????? Don't forget you rifle and you call.

Blackfoot, Idaho, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 17:15:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dean; A bullet has to go somewhere. We say one shot one kill. But unless you can repeat it with some predictability, the longest shot doesn't count. Even the longest kill is subject to being accidental.
I recall the Billy Dixon shot at the Commanche Medicine man at 1500 plus. Billy said it was luck. Educated luck perhaps. Perhaps the longest predicted shot belongs to NASA! I once killed a coyote running flat out at 30mph 3/4wind 250 yards from the window of a Suburban doing 30 mph. Anyone want to do the odds and leads on that one? The coyote thought it was luck I'm sure and it was. Someone circulated a picture of a young girl 14 who fired a 10" group at 1000 yards 5 shots I believe, I still have it somewhere, with Iorn sights.
Now that's shooting. Carl shot 2500 yards to a VC on a Bike with a 50 cal. He too thought it was mostly luck!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 17:16:15 (ZULU) (your host address:



First... please DON'T TYPE ALL CAPS, it's the equivelent of screaming, and not easy to read.

... and second, you've been had. The 20mm might hit a tank or truck at that range, but nothing less. It's not posible for ANY RIFLE to hit a silver dollar at 2 miles, unless it's a machinegun, with unlimited ammo, and unlimited time. Even the 2500 yd shot by Carlos, was nothing but luck, and he admitted it.


PAblito <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 17:16:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dean in Clayton: You are the victim of BS overload. The current record, according to the Sierra newsletter is just over 3 inches at 1000 yards. That's the 1000 yard record. For anyone to say that he hit a silver dollar at 3200 yards is pure BS. Think about this. You need to *SEE* the silver dollar at that range to hit it. That's about a 1" target. You're well out of the resolution range of anything but astrological scopes at that range! Of course, the easy answer is that the silver dollar was sitting on an Iraqui tank, which was "shot" with a laser guided missle. That I believe. Anything else is a loudmouth without the knowlege of physics to defend his position!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 17:22:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Operational Load Carry: Twice within the last year or so I've been deployed on sniper operations at short notice. Once to Kosovo, during initial entry, and to Sierra Leone to extract National/Hostages. On both deployments personal gear was kept to a minimum. Snipers carried web gear with ammo and waterbottles only. Both the SA80 + 300rds and the (L96 with 120rds for Kosovo & .338 AI with 120rds) were carried. A daysack was also carried with a small amount of food, nightsights and radio equipment. Each pair deployed forward with either HF or VHF task dependent, each man carried both weapon systems.
In Kosovo Snipers were kept close to the main force acting in the sharpshooter type role. Once in Pristina they were used for specialist tasks such as the high profile roof top coverage of Madelaine Albrights 1st visit to the Capital.
In Sierra Leone pairs were deployed approx 5KM forward of the Bn FEBA in order to act as early warning and to interdict En. movement to buy the Bn time in the event of an advance. Pairs worked alone and were rotated every four days. 4 x Waterbottles, some biscuits & 1 boil in the bag beef hash was the only food taken. Due to the close Country Snipers infiltrated to positions on main tracks/roads at night. Snipers then lay up at road sides in order to gain maximum view forwards. This required maximum concentration due to the amount of civilian traffic (mainly on foot) during the daylight hours. Dehydration was the biggest problem hence Camelbacs were a Godsend.
The overall point is that Snipers must remember to travel light and put up with discomfort. Too often on modern courses we are taught that we need this or that peice of kit, which all adds weight. Good training, sound field discipline and a determind state of mind go a long way on operational deployments!
Remember Edger Rabbets, a British Sniper/sharpshooter who was on his own from the initial German invasion through Belgium until Dunkirk. He caused a great deal of confussion amongst the Germans dispite having hobnailed boots, basic battledress, no rations and NO telescopic sight (and no formal Sniper training) Hardships must be endured to ensure survival!
Slugboy <>
England - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 17:30:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
And the winner is..... 10" twist! Thanks for all the great comments twist rates for the .308 HTR. I guess a family of foxes has been eating a little too good on sheep. I love having a reason to get all dressed up and defend the innocent. I wish someone could develop a breed of varmints that would get pissed-off and form an assult party and attack!!! All the genetic testing and still no one else has thought of this... it's days like today that I need to watch Saving Private Ryan again and be grateful for peace! Thanks again, Daren
Daren Yancey <>
Blackfoot, Idaho, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 17:43:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
Need leupold information.
Ijust bought a rem. ltr. in 308. It has a leupold 3.5x10 with target knobs, on the power ring there are yard meter markings from 2 to 6 . Since i did not receive a booklet with the used scope can someone instruct me on its use.
Thanks Tim
Scott <>
canada - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 18:48:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
Scott (#2)...
Those ranges thingies work like this... you zoom the scope on a 18" target (chest to back of a deer, or foot to back of a 'yote), until that area fits just between the fat sections of the duplex reticle... then look at the "range" marks on the ring... it's not great, but better than nothing for the average hunter.


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 19:25:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito - You have exposed to me once again the dark underside of my soul. And to think, I have always gone around telling people that I liked Mac & Cheese.
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 20:53:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo: Where do you get astrological scopes? Are they worth the $$, or should I stick with tarot cards?

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 21:06:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

i use a 3rd gen springfield on my 308, i would like to find a mildot to youse on my 300wn mag. dose springfield make a mildot to use on my 300?
ervin <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 21:27:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
First I hope this doesn't show up twice I am much better with my ATNT than my computer.
I have a 3rd gen spring on my 308 and I am verry happy with it (even with the scope clutter). My question is about a mildot for my 300wn mag. I would like to find something from springfield. Or atleast here some comments on this or other scopes.
ervin <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 21:50:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Good enough CDC. I meant, obviously, astronomical. Keep your tarot cards, they'll help you judge wind better than a "big" scope. HA! The beer light is hereby on.
Brew Master Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Bob Wills never met algor, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 22:12:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pat T...
Yeah, but every night for three months ;) The sacrifices I make for shooting ;)

Bravo DID mean Astrological scope... you look through it, and it tells you whether you will win the match, or to go home, and save your ammo for another day.


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 22:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy; hope this isn't rude construde as rude but your post is the most wisdom I've heard from the Isles in quite a while now! Right on the mark ol'chap!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 23:06:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
In the never ending search for "betterer" gear, I'm wondering if any of youse guys have any experience with the Brownells Camo paints, the "twelve 'Nature's Colors'" to be specific. I looked at the aluma-hyde II, but quicky dismissed that as it comes in OD and brown, but no "sand". Anyway, anybody have any any experience with these? I want to do up some more "weathered desert camo". Or should I just stick with the US GI spray paints from Freds? Any intel would be appreciated. Thanks! Oh, will these paints mess up the knurling on the CAR handguard?
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
The banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, November 04, 2000 at 23:38:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo, yep, same thing I learned here. Brownell's "durable" finishes whether they be the Teflon/Moly, the Alumahyde II, or the bake on epoxy something or other finish, come in OD Green and Earth Brown but no Sand Brown. They're missing out here by not providing a full product line.

I'm uncertain about the nature's 12 colors, haven't had experience with those yet.

Ofcourse this has probably been archieved somewhere already, I've read the interesting piece with reflectivity ratings of certain objects. I'd be interested in knowing, I'm certain others here also would, what some of these products look like under IR illumination through a NVD. I've used the Teflon/Moly, the Alumahyde II, and BowFlage on three seperate occasions and I've always wondered if any of them reflect IR and glow like a christmas tree. I haven't gotten to play with any NVDs so I haven't had any exposure to the adverse effects that a finish could have in such a situation. Ca. is kinda funny about nightscopes with an IR illuminator, fine if it's a handheld but a no-no if you have a dual purpose design that you can also put on a rifle.

I guess I'll have to wait till I get the hell out of Ca. before I get a nighttime Yote shooting rig.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 00:09:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi kids!!


I'm still around, just so damned busy makin' barrels, my hands and brain are too tired to type, LOL!! Plus it's huntin season dude!! Been scoutin for the wily whitetail on my free time. But I'll give ya my 2 cents on the .308

Darren, I know you well, I remember yer barrel goin thru....

See if you can get the salespeople at HS to run an 11 or 11.25" twist, you gotta generate the RPM for the heavier loads, but the 10 is too fast for the 168's as you'd have to compromise on velocity, and you won't get the performance your lookin for in a 168 gr out of a .308. You don't want to overstabilize that bullet or lose what little velocity ya get out of the 308. Some don't realize how much a difference 1" let alone 2" in twist rate will affect ya. I'd run the 1/10" if I were shooting the 190's and above, but not less. That's all I have for that, well except for if you are shooting heavier .308 boolets go with something with a little more powder behind it. 300 win hasnt let me down yet.


No, YOU da man!! I'll be orderin' somethin' from you here soon, stocking stuffers.

check ya later folks

JR <>
fezzenttcountry, sd, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 00:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy: Excellent post. Stick around and tell us more. In Sierra Leone what temperature range were you operating in? How much water did you carry? How far apart were teams?

I'm not trying to pry loose anything that's classified. If any of that treads on holy ground, I understand.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 00:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hiekki is it? From Finland?

I have some questions about the TRG-21/22. Please e-mail if you will. Anybody else with a good knowledge of these rifles please e-mail too.


TR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 01:52:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Luck, Skill and Very, Very, Very Long-Range Shooting:

All weapon and ammo combination have a certain amount of dispersion built into them. Even 1000 yard benchrest rifles are not perfetly accurate and they tend to be operated in an ideal world with custom ammunition, no weight limits and all sorts of other impractial touches that wont work in the real world as we know it. "Silver dollar at 3200 yard" accuracy does not exist with unguided, free-flight projectiles and I do not forsee any technology being developed to change that fact. By my top-of-the-head calculations, that would be something approaching .03 MOA accuracy under field conditions. No f'ing way, of course, not even out of some sort of laboratory test rig. I think that many real-deal tactical shooters here would admit that they would be quite happy if they could reliably hold a true 1 MOA @ 1000 yards under real-world conditions. When you are asking for much more than that, you get into the realm of statisitcs and probablility. Carlos' specialy tweaked M2 would probably put .50 BMG ball bullets into a circle about 10 feet (guessing here) in diameter at that range on a relialbe basis. It was Carlos Hathcock's skill as a marksman that put that circle on top of the much smaller intended target and mathematics (of a rather chaotic sort, I imagine) that put that bullet into the target proper. There was word out of the desert that somebody managed to tag an Iraqi tank commander protruding from the turret of his T-72 at something like 2,000M with a .50 BMG rifle of some sort. If this was the case, substantial skill was required on the shooters part just to hit the tank, but I'm sure he'd be the first to say that bagging that particular individual was a matter of luck . That poor tank commander just had a very bad day, is all. Such is the nature of war.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 02:52:54 (ZULU) (your host address:


Sitting here with a mild headache from all the gunsmoke I inhaled today. We had a get together of full auto shooters, military and police shooters, and a few close friends from the land of the lost(Kalifornia)...

Couple HK21's on the line with G-3's and MP-5s abounding. Took my supressed Uzi and Swedish "K". As much as I like the Uz, the "K" is the show stopper. Shooters were hitting bowling pins with some regularity at 100-150 yards with it. Never seen so many "cat ate the canary" grins in my life!

Turned a friend loose with my tactical .308. He fell in love. A number of other shooters tried it and felt the same. No wonder I love the M40A1 clone. You can hardly miss with it.

The upshot it that one of my friends and instructors is going in for heart surgery Monday. He's 36. New valve and aorta reconstruction planned. His name is Luke Harry and I'd take it as a personal favor if you keep him in your thoughts.

We also took the opportunity to inventory his weaponry in case we have to split his gear later...;-)

Hunting the wiley Blacktail buck tomorrow. I'll post if I get lucky on not. What am I using... .308, 'natcherly!

All the best,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 03:49:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

I need some low speed loads for the REM. Ultra Mag 300 and IMR 4895. I will be using new surplus M118 173gr FMJBT and would like to get them out of a REM. M700 PSS with a 26" BBL. at about 2550/2650 FPS.

TIA: Rod Eddy
Rod Eddy <TactTec@AOL.COM>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 04:15:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello, I have a rather simplistic question but what type, model of scope was/is used on the G3ZF and MSG90? I hve been told Kahles, Schmidt & Bender and numerous other types but no-one seems to be able to tell me definitively. I made a search through the duty roster but found nothing specific. Although with the vast wealth of info available here I could easily have overlooked it. Any help or redirection would be much appreciated.
Mark Beckett <>
Queensland, Australia - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 06:33:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Morning ya'll
I have a question that may seem trivial to many that frequent this site, but I am hoping some light can be shed on this subject. I bought a bone stock Model 70 .300WM (Walmart special) last year for hunting in the Sierra Nevadas of California. I broke in the barrel, and I shoot this rifle just as it came out of the box with the 26 inch barrel, the Simmons 3x9 and factory 150gr Remington Core-lokd ammo. I only have access to a 200 yard range, and I am not satisfied with the 3 inch groups at 200 yards. I would like to know what can be done with this rifle to bring the groups down to 1 moa. Keep in mind that I am dealing with a budget here that is struggling to keep my truck on the road with todays gas prices. Any help would be appreciated.

Mike <>
Moble, AL, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 10:09:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Attention, SAVAGE shooters!

TIMNEY triggers for the M10/110 are available from Brownell's for $80 (stock #883-000-001). Finally, a decent trigger from a manufacturer I've had experience with. They call it the Savage Featherweight Trigger.

Just my luck - I traded my 20" M10 for a Stealth to train with at Badlands, just last month! Nothing wrong with the Stealth, of course, but I could have done as well (for less) with the M10/Timney combination. With a Harris bipod and a sand-sock under the toe, the M10's Tupperwear stock would have worked just as well as the sleek HS Precision carbon-fiber/aluminum stock on the Stealth.

Live, and learn patience.

Kettlebelly <>
Kansas City, Mo., USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 13:06:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike (3rd from Kalifornia?),

Try another type of ammunition, Federal GM300WM, Black Hills, or similar Premium line from another company. That may change the groups a bit. Not that what you're getting is shabby mind you. Handloading will make a difference also, but initial gear investment can be steep.

The cheap and easy way is to re-barrel (to begin with) using a quality aftermarket from a reputable maker, and save your $$$$ to get a decent LR scope and Badger Rings and Mounts. If you do, you will have happy feet and a Cheshire grin at the range. Trust me on this
Seems theres a couple really good Tactical Rifle gunsmiths that lurk/view here and can help with the serious stuff.

Shelby 427 S/C, Now thats a Car!!!!!!!!
Simple-Brutal-Fast as Hell-Yeee-Hah.


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 13:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the G3 Torsten can probably tell you for sure but Kahles sounds right to me.
Mike; The Winchester is not doing all that bad. I think you probably could neck size the brass instead of full size and possibly not seat the bullets any deeper than you just have too and bring it down to less than 2"/ With factory and the fact that's it's stock makes me think you have a pretty good rifle. Be sure it's free floated in the stock and torqued properly to about 50 in lbs. minimum. The trigger guard screws are another point. Be sure they are free from binding and the Center one is not overtightened. I think they can still bind the action a little but if that were the case I doubt you would be shooting as well as you are. You may not be a reloader so some of this may not suit what you do. But the .300 is a bit loose sometimes as that belted case doesn't really work like it's supposed to unless it's been fire formed in your chamber.
Kelly B. I think your right about that. I have been putting a "scout" through it's paces and find that it's pretty much outshooting the Remington's I've been getting for the past few years with the factory bedded stock. I have about 4lbs and no slack on the factory trigger but it's just not a Remington if you read my wind. Otherwise I love it and the clip works flawlessly once I bent the right side out a little to hold in the rifle better. IT was dropping the clip on the last shot... which might be ok ... if you were loading fast but it's not supposed to do that I think. The sort of it is .. I'm starting to really appreciate this Short Action Savage rifle. It's a winner.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 13:39:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi! Thanks for the interest,Sent this to Zac already noticed CDC interest so post for all to read. no of this is classified

1. Duration of tasks: Normally no longer than 4 nights/5 days. This allows
minimum equipment and when deployed as a pair any longer really drains your
efficiency. This said we deployed into Sierra leone for a 21 day OP
(although duration was not known on entry to theatre) Here we split our 14
man section (7 pairs, including my command pair) 3 pairs to Lungi Airport
security, 2 pairs to the Defensive screen to the North of Lungi & 2 pairs to
the Patrols Coy. These teams rotated through the various tasks and worked
every day. Only the defensive screen task employed Snipers forward alone!

2. Equipment: We deployed into theatre with the following in each pair;
1 x Leica Vector Binos per pair
2 x Simrad Night scope per pair
1 x .338, AI LRLC Rifle each 120rds Ball (Drag Bag/ cover only no pouches
helps minimism weight)
1 x SA80 Rifle each 150rds Ball, 150 rds 1 in 4 tracer
1 x CWS (Common wpn sight, x4 NVD for SA80)
1 x Red Phos per pair
1 x 9mm Pistol per pair
1 x 351 + 2 x spare batteries & GSA per pair (UHF Radio)
1 x 349 radio per team + 2 Batteries (Small UHF radio)
1 x Leupold 12 - 40 x 60 spotting scope per pair
1 x tripod per pair (For spotting scope)
(These equipments are normal SOP and are carried on most exercises/Ops)

3. Individual Kit:
1 x PLCE or SAS Bergan (Troops can carry anything as long as it works)
1 x Webbing set/ Ops vest, chest rig, Belt gear (Same applys)
In Bergan.
Normally, sleeping bag (Softie 9 or 12, issued on too big)
Spare socks, spare trs, shirt. Entrenching tool (GS not callapsable)
Ortlieb waterproof Bags, bergan liners
Softie jkt or Para silk (zoot suit type jkt)
Spare torch
3 days Rations (broken down, supplimented with noodles, Curry powder)
Musili mixed with dried skimmed milk for hard routine
Flask, Rifle cleaning kit
Spare water Minimum 2 bottles. quart, Camelbac etc..
Wash & shave kit, boot polish etc...
Patrol Report writing equipment, A4, waterproof covers, ruler flexible,
pens, pencils, rubber(erasor)
Daysack (Not zip off pouches as they are shite)
Any Ops kit, Spare batteries etc..
Although in Sierra Leone most of this was dumped due to weight of Ops kit,
hence half of the troops had no spare clothing or washing & shaving kit

In Webbing:
2 x W/btls min
All ammo
Personal 1st Aid kit
Pullthroughs, flanellette, oil (breakfree for .338), wire brush, shaving
brush (for wpn cleaning)
Metal Mug/Mess tin for cooking
Emergency Rations, Vitamin tablets (large) Energy Block
1 or 2 Boil in bags (one meal sachet each)
Coffee/tea, sugar, dried milk
Heximine stove

On Man:
Torch, masked off & spare batteries
Compass Silva & Prismatic
Map in Ortlieb bag
Notebook pencils (waterproofed)
Lighter, w/proofed matches
Survival tin
Firefly & Flash card for Air indication (Heli)
2 x FFd & Crepe Bandage
Sniper log book, & prompt cards (Arty mor control/Contact reports etc..)
Knife (Pen type)
ID Discs
Shammy leather cloth carried around neck for cleaning optics

This can be supplimented with Daysack for deployments, to carry Radio and
optics. Also a Bivi bag is always carried where possible.

4. Resupply:
If Snipers are deployed on tasks longer than 4 days then they will deploy as
a 4 man team. Once infiltration is complete they will split into pairs. On
pair working while one rests. The working pair will overwatch the resting
pairs Hide.
All teams will work to their anchor O.P. which will have the HF radio for
comms back to F/Forces. With a 14 man section 3 teams deploy on a task 1 as
anchor O.P. and 2 fwd. Hence 2 screens can be deployed to different tasks.
The HQ team can deploy forward (which is normally the case) or they can
remain in Bn Main to advise. However quite often they work closely with the
Bn Ptls Pl and will report direct from the field to the Patrols coordinator
in Bn Main.
Obviously the section can come together as a larger screen or for a
coordinated shoot with the Anchor O.P. provided by the HQ team.

5. I may wish to add that we are an airborne Unit, 1st Bn the Parachute Reg,
(1 Para) so equipment carried is always an issue. We do not have the
Logistic support an equivilent US unit would have. Hence quite often Ghillie
suits cannot be taken into theatre. This has led to all manner of equivilent
kit being tried. Net type clip on Jkts with realtree type light cam is
favoured although most of us merely rely on a good Ghillie headress, gloves
and elastic bands for natural Cam. The weapon is covered in green tent
repair tape which is then cammed using Cam cream and elastic bands for
natural Cam.

6. Improvised tripod, Beanbags, Angleshooting & Formula cards are carried
by most of the Snipers

7. I'm a Csgt & the Bn Master Sniper. I've been Sniping since 1984 and spent
2 years at the SF Sniper Division in Brecon Wales teaching potential Sniper
Instructors. I've operated in all environments 4 years AMFL (Norway), Desert
Conditions in the Oman, Kenya & Mojove. European environment and Africa.
I am limited on Jungle experience having only operated in the Primary
Jungles of Kenya and Sierra Leone.
However within the Section we have Snipers who have attended LRRP cses in
Bruni and spent 6 months in Belize.
Equipment carried in these environments is similar to those listed, the main
difference being added clothing & equipment for Norway and added water for
Desert conditions. These obviously effect wpns and charts as well as the way
we operate but I will not go into this here.

8. Hope this note helps answer some of your questions, it would also be
interesting to hear what type of equipment your guys carry?

Slugboy (Nickname wife gave me after Sierra Leone Crawling in wet warm

Slugboy <>
England - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 15:26:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

BRAVO Ihave used the Brownell's camo paints on hunting &tactical rifles for several years. they seem to hold up well and are resistant to the gun solvents I use {shooters choice/sweets}. The camo mutes out withtime/ use making the finish look even better. Don't know about filling in knurling....Another product I've found great for stocks is wing walk paint for texturing grip areas. It's black, so I put it on first and then camo paint over it. The stuff provides a really tough non slip surface. markwell out
Markwell < >
seneca, wv, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 15:28:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Resupply: Noticed after posting didn't give detail on resupply procedure. We normally use a system called Live or dead letter boxes.

Live manned RV for re-sup drop off

dead - Un manned resup at grid (normally dug in/cammed)

Temp in Sierra Leone High 80/90's with 90% Humidity

Water carried 4 Bottles each (Norm)
Slugboy <>
England - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 15:35:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy: You mentioned that your unit was providing airport security. Security against what? What was the size or expected size of the elements you were providing security against? What was their mission or expected mission? Were they expected to infiltrate in small elements then form into larger elements, or were you operating close enough to the airport to deny them a staging area? You said your kit included, "Sniper log book, & prompt cards (Arty mor control/Contact reports etc..)." Am I reading too much into that or did you have arty on call?

Last December a bunch of the guys on this site described their "bug-out" kits. A part of your question about equipment is answered there. Anything past that I'll leave to abler hands than me.

And stick around. You're a welcome addition to the discussion.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 16:45:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy: I forgot a couple of basic questions. What kind of equipment were the bad-guys carrying. How well were they trained? How sharp were they?

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 16:48:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy! Many congratulations on an excellent post RE: equipment. This is the kind of stuff that really helps rookies like me and helps further define my "Stuff". IMHO what is carried to supplement the shooting skill is as important as anything. Keep it up and keep the info coming!

Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 17:18:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dear Sniper country; I am no sniper I am just a shooter/hunter/gun collector,who bought an M-14 I.D.F. sniper rifle with the nimrod scope from Springfield armory.The nimrod scope&ammunition favored by the israeli rifle is what I would like info on.As I said previously I am not military trained so please dumb it down for me.

Brent Roberts "first timer"
Brent Roberts <>
searcy, ar, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 17:45:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref; En Forces. We arrived in Sierra Leone with the UN in disarray. they were withdrawing fast and the Rebel Army were expected to take and secure Lungi Airport within 48hrs. This was an Army, far outnumbering our Bn. Battle Group.
They were well equiped, due to diamond mines being in their hands.They had a large amount of small arms of the AK series and 12.7HMG mounted on pick-up trucks. They also had 12 years combat experience behind their efforts.
Many of them were trained by South African Mercs.
All those encounterd worked in groups no smaller than 12 - 15 but mainly 30 strong.Although the main push could be up to 2000 strong estimated.
Our arrival and 1st Contact with these Rebels was enough to calm the situation and turn the tide in the Country.(Details cannot be discussed in this forum)
Once re-stabilized the UN managed to bolster its forces and re-take control. Then we withdrew, handing over to our Royal Marines who stayed for another 2-3 weeks.
A small UK contingent was inserted to train the Sierra Leone Army. Members of these where taken hostage. This resulted in members of my Bn returning to stage the rescue mission. All hostages were secured with the loss of 1 British soldier (part of rescue force)
Information on the ground was sketchy. We only had the Bn Mor support but when deployed forward of the Defensive Coy were out of Mor Range.
Look at the British army Web site for details on both OP's with photos and diagrams of the rescue Mission.

Slugboy <>
England - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 17:49:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gentlemen - boy am I losing it! - Some of you know that ole Sarge has accepted a job in another part of beautiful New Mexico. I leave in the morning to start work there. On some of my days off I will be back home and have computer access, but until my living arrangements are solid I'll be off-line for about 2 weeks - less I pray!! So until then PLAY NICE and Sarge won't have to call in the F-117's to take care of his light work!!


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 18:29:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy: Again, I am only interested in unclassified info.

Were the bad-guys capable of launching a full assault when you got there? Did they have an indirect fire capability? If they would have come, were you in a position to get back to your lines? Did you have air cover?

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 20:58:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

In answer to questions;
1. Yes the Enemy were capable of launching assault once we were in theatre.
2. They did have indirect fire, although mainly mortars
3. They also had APC & lift armour of Soviet & French origins (Captured from UN forces) They also had attacked Nigerian UN troops dressed as UN troops (another Factor)
4. Like I said earlier, my main task was early warning. Once the rebels had passed my location, I would stalk back to my No2 (we were seperated so the comms would not compromise my posn on the road side)
Once F/Forces informed we would follow Rebels from behind and hit them from the rear.
5. Again another reason for light kit & equipment
6. Air Support only arrived with the Marine Aircraft carriers in the last few days of our deployment.
Slugboy <>
England - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 22:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
Slugboy: It sounds like they had you spread pretty thin. Congratulations on getting back with nothing worse than some bug-bites and a good story. Please accept my condolences on the loss of your team member.
CDC <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 22:39:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just located a website that seems to have a link to possibly every military/sniper gear supplier out there and I thought I should share it.

Gonzo <>
USA - Sunday, November 05, 2000 at 22:45:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy...outstanding post. That is the kind of stuff we need to read! Soldier of Fortune Mag gave you guys an excellent write up. Glad you made it out.
Cory <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 01:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am about to purchase a rifle to use for deer hunting, but am unssure about which rifle to get. I am hoping someone can help me choose a gun wisely. Again this gun will be used for hunting and target shooting for pleasure. The guns that I have narrowed it down to are available at your local Wal-Mart. They are as follows:

1.) Ruger M77 All-Weather model chambered in .270 Win. Stainless steel action and barrel, composite stock. Awesome looking too!
I am concerned about what I have read regarding Ruger's barrels. Have they improved lately? Are the stainless barrels any better?

2.) Winchester Model 70 Black Shadow in .270 Win. This one has a black synthetic stock and matte action & barrel. This one comes with a Simmons 3-9X x32 scope attached with a solid base & rings. One thing that bothers me here is that Winchester reports the gun to have a hinged floorplate design to facilitate quick emptying of the magazine, but this gun does not have it. Nor does the Remington that I am also considering.

3.) Remington Model 700 in .270 Win. This gun is available here in black synthetic stock w/matte barrel, & also Wood stock and glossy blued barrel. Neither comes with a scope, but both come with iron sights, and the other brands do not. I really like the stock on the Remington.

There are certain Pro's & Con's to each of these rifles that are readily apparent to me, but I want to see what you guys think. Although, none of these guns would ever see sniper duty, quality is very important to me. I want to know that I am getting, and its capabilities. I don't want something low quality or inconsistent.
The prices are as follows:

Ruger M77 - $429.00
Winchester Model 70 - $372.88
Reminton Model 700 Synthetic - $366.00 Wood - $412.00

Please help,
Gary Martin <>
Alexandria, LA, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 01:30:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gary Martin: Get a Winchester or Remington. The deer will never know the difference. Simmons is junk. Better to get a fixed 4X loopy off the net. I'd rather have a quality fixed than a variable dog. Don't buy junk rings and bases.

Seems like we've been through this.

CDC <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 01:39:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Check out the sign at the bottom of the opening page at:
This is what Tennesseans think of Little Albert!
Jeff Quinn <>
Dover, TN, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 01:44:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gary Martin...

The Winchester you are looking at, is NOT the regular "Black Shadow"... it is a special model made up for Wal-mart.
When you are buying 10,000 rifles, you can get the company to make "special" alterations for you... in this case, they cut costs by not having the floorplate... so it's cheaper when they advertise it in the papers.

I would strongly suggest that you go to a real gun store, and get the standard version of the "Black Shadow" (or whatever other stick you want)... then get the scope that you want.

Like CDC said... don't get cheap optics, get good used, before getting new junk!


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 02:09:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Knuckle dragger translation required. What does a 5 cm optic equate to in magnification 6X, 10X or what?

"Class 1 lasers are lasers which inherently cannot emit radiation in excess of the MPE limits. This does not, however, mean that the system is incapable of doing harm. ANSI Z136.1-1993 requires that classification is based only on unaided and 5-cm aided viewing conditions. Therefore, hazards may still be posed when using viewing optics with a greater optical gain than 7.14 (5-cm optics)."

Gooch <>
Norman, AR, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 02:21:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sarge; Good luck ole Son, Don't make us come and have to look for you now! Hope you like it there, whereever there is. Going N,W, Middle?
Slugman; good info, I was comparing my pack today with your's and there are 30 similar items in it. If you allow me a .308 instead of the big boy. Just shows you we all think similiar on the trail in the woods etc. No claymore's? Me neither! Seriously that's very interesting. Pay no mind to CDC he's a spy or something....I'm just a hamburger man myself!
Gary; ON the Walmart rifle, If you don't take Pablito's excellent advice, (I hope you will)... buy the Remington in this case. They shoot quite well in the Walmart special if you float em and adjust em a little. Do get the Leupold scope. Wally has a 3X9 for $249.00 that'l run rings around anything else they carry. Skip the Ruger that trigger is a tragedy! IF you want to save some money I think you might ought to check out the new 20" Savage Mountain Rifle. It's a winner when you look at cost vs. features. You gotta work that trigger a little though to have a good rifle you can control.

OK OK OK, I finally found a M1 that shoots. So laugh....My Son bought an old M1 at a Auction (probably belonged to a dead guy that was Civilian Marksmanship program). It lays em in there. So there is a M1 that shoots somewhere. Miracles will never cease.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 02:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gary; I went to Savage and looked it up. The Number of that Savage is 10. I comes in 20" with a clip fed magazine and weighs in at 6lbs. I think this rifle would serve anyone well that hunts the high country or even deep woods. I good rifle doesn't have to break your back. IT comes in short or long action. I have the scout model myself that is essentially the same works with a little different set up for the scope. Out of the box it outshoots the past 10 Remingtons I've unpacked. I've done virtually nothing except adjust the trigger and it does 1moa easily with aimpoint sight at 100 yards. It's a good stable system in my book. (end of Savage Commercial splice Budweiser spot here).

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 03:06:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


Great posts, much appreciated and welcome to the roster.

I am very interested in the "Master Sniper" certification program with the UK. In the US, our sniper program has been historically very on and off, but appears to be here to stay.

We do not have a good program like a "Master Sniper" course that I know of. There is some sporadic Sniper Employment Officer training that I saw, but it wasn't great.

I would appreciate your input on this program you all have.

And of course anyone else from the board who knows something I don't (which means mostly everyone!)


I saw a new ammo called "Sciracco" on the Remingtonarms site. Anyone try this yet? It seems like a good round from the site; but of course thats the manufacturers site.

Best Wishes Everyone,

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 03:27:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

In regards to your 300win with the accuracy you are getting with what
you are shooting sounds quite good. I have had much better luck with
bullets in the 180 through 200 grain range(several different rifles
over the last 25 years,all have been accurate) if you have a friend who reloads you might try 68 Gr IMR 4350 with a 190 MatchKing, allthough many seem to prefer the 180 Ballistic Tip.If you don't have access to handloads Federal High Energy 180 seems to shoot real well in many rifles. Since you have a 26 inch barrel I assume this is a
classic which is a very good action, good trigger, good safety, It
gives you a good place to build from should you decide to do so. These rifles are very popular in this area, so I have used them and
know many who do, any way it is quite common to cut the barrels to
22 or 24 inches(long barrels are somewhat unhandy in this area,due to
the heavy brush and foilage)many of these shot better after being
shortened,Maybe these barrels are to light for that 26 inch length
I don't know, just a guess. As some have said in other reply's you
will probably move onto better optics(I prefer Leupold) When you get
this far, and your pleased with your shooting skills, you will know
what you need next.
Good Luck and have a nice day.
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 04:08:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anybody seen the new Remington catalog? I could swear the rifle on the front is sporting a Dakota "type" trigger guard. Or maybe a new design of their own? Anybody know?


TR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 04:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wild Bill: I *KNOW* Garands can be had that shoot. I started off with a US GI surplus, in moderately good shape, as my "competition service rifle". I was informed that when I rated better than that, I would be told such. And later, much later, I was. When that Garand got done, it would keep up with any box stock M1A out there, and better than most. I wouldn't put it in the "M1A Supermatch" category, but it was significantly better than I was, and probably still am. I later traded it off for that NM M1A, but anyone who says a Garand can't shoot doesn't know! I've seen too many MOA and under ones to write 'em off.

Markwell: thanks! Did you try the "sand" color? I'm interested in duplicating the US GI 3 color desert cammies. I'm not too worried about going too light, but I'm concerned about going too dark. And of course, I don't want to use a brush or roller. HA! Any dope is appreciated!

Slugboy: welcome to the roaster! Stay a while, and enjoy.

PeteR: I've been told that 14" wide low profile tires on 18" rims will fit in the rear wells, I'm hoping that this will solve my "can't hook the horses to the ground" problem that I have with the current hot rod. As it is, I can only connect enough horses to blow tranny seals :-(

Kent: welcome back! Hope everything is well in the new home. Long time no hear!

And the reason I got on tonight: while the weather was dry, I took off to the range (for a change it was dry). I'm here to tell ANYONE that AA2520 IS NOT the way to go. I'm still shooting up the last of it, but I won't use the last 4 pounds I have for anything but blasting ammo for the CAR. I was at a milled "just under 500 yards", and instead of head shots, I was getting trachea shots. And low at that. Of course, the temperature went from just over to just under freezing, but that much difference in velocity is unexcusable. It was refreshing to see those 100 yard "confirm my zero" groups, both 5 shot groups were covered COMPLETELY with a 1" square paster, and that included the cold clean bore shot. I *LOVE* Betty Lou! I'm going to EXPERIMENT with Varget, but if anyone has any first hand knowlege about M-14 types and the heavier bullets with Varget, I'd be really appreciative to hear it. I'll stand by AA2520 for what I purchased it for, known distance competitions where you have sighters, but for this spotter (sniper) stuff it sucks rocks.

Kevin of the North: Please tell me, oh friend, that the Canadians are more advanced than their Southern allies. Whadda you guys use for mag pouches with the FAL types? I'm really wanting to purchase some good M-16 type mag pouches, but sized for a couple of M-14 mags. I'm just tired of looking at my threadbare canvas types! If you've got the same type, I wonder if anyone knows where I can get some good mag pouch type OD nylon to have some whipped up. Kind of a fussy point, but that's me.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 05:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

SAKO TRG 21 vs 22


the 21 is what 5 of my buddies have, one has a 22.

muzzle brake : 21. was held on with a small ring groove turned into the barrel and a clamp on the brake that held it in place with the 6mm hex bolt running through the groove.

brake is good, steel, has a thread for suppressor attachment, method of attachment is ok if you dont want to loosen it all the time. turn it down good when the rifle is warm from shooting the first ten rounds and it will be ok

22. threaded on brake with clamp on back up. aluminum as far as i remember, bigger than 21

magazine has to be rotated out dropping the back end first, that is why the 22 is missing a piece of stock to let the mag be manipulated better / faster. doesnt matter in our type of work. also looks strange.

scope mount, youre right the factory mount is to high, however they offer two heights to allow for diffrent objective dia.

i have had EAW make some forward canted picatinney mounts for us. use that with leupold mk 4 rings and your a set to go.

good tool set with the rifle !

there you have it !


torsten <>
g3land - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 11:03:43 (ZULU) (your host address:


on the G3 a3 ZF the Bundeswehr uses we have a hensolt (zeiss) scope. there are two versions in use at this time.

the Modell 1 or 2 and the FERRO -Z 24

The main differences are the windage adjustments. all have a BDC graduated for our AB22 7.62x51 Nato round.

The G-3´s are specially selected at the H&K factory for sniper use, but do not have any changes made to them.
These will still continue use with the reserve units for at least another 10 years.

look trough the picture gallery and you will find a few more pics of us shooting the G-3ZF

right now all KRK (Crisis Reaction Forces) are being issued the new Accuracy Intl. AWF in .300 win mag.

The MSG 90 is in use with the Police and the Borderguards also have a few. However Police procurement is a state thing and so you will find a lot of diffrent scopes and weapons with the police in germany. mostly still the PSG 1 with a Zeiss scope of diffrent flavor.

more questions ?

see you


G-3 a 3 ZF Sniper training <>
germany - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 11:06:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have recently purchaced an ACOG TA-01NSN. Lets just say that it doesn't suck. I need a range in the Denver area that allows us to shoot out to 300 meters. I need 300 meters so that the bullet drop compensator is calibrated. Any suggestions? Thanks guys!
Patrick Sciaroni <>
Boulder, Colorado, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 11:32:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Welcome back... now that you've had a chance to meet EVERYBODY in Norman, AR... (two nights in "the" bar, and one Saturday morning at the barbershop) ;)

>>What does a 5 cm optic equate to in magnification 6X, 10X or what?
"Class 1 lasers are lasers which inherently cannot emit radiation in excess of the MPE limits. This does not, however, mean that the system is incapable of doing harm. ANSI Z136.1-1993 requires that classification is based only on unaided and 5-cm aided viewing conditions. Therefore, hazards may still be posed when using viewing optics with a greater optical gain than 7.14 (5-cm optics)."<<

You ain't no knuckle dragger, but translation follows...

ANSI Z136.1-1993 specs relate to the laser power delivered to the retina of the eye, and the conditions where the power (in microwatts per mm\2 or some such equivlent) will exceed a safe level, and damage/burn the rods and cones, leaving a blind spot in the vision.

For a given power of laser, the amount of energy on the retina is determined by the distance of the eye from the laser (further is better), and the size of the pupil of the eye (smaller is better).

The two conditions that are rated for military stuff, are the unaided, night time eye (at 7mm diameter), and through a 5cm (50mm) optical device (because it's the most common size... as in 7x50 bins).

Take a AN/GVS-5 laser... it's safe to the unaided eye past 1200 mtrs, because the laser circle keeps spreading out and at that distance, and that pupil size, it's considered "safe"... but dangerous at closer ranges, because the laser hasn't spread out as much, and more of it gets through the "window" of your eye.

However, if you (the target), at 1500 meters, are looking "at" the spotter with the laser, with a pair of bins with a 50mm objective, the lens is 7 (actually 7.14) times bigger than your pupil, and is catching 49 times (the ratio of the area of the 7mm pupil, and the 50mm lens) the laser energy... and Poof, you join the "WCC"... (White Cane Club).

So to be safe, looking "at" the AN/GVS-5 with 7x50 bins you would need to be 8400 mtrs away... and looking with a Unertl "Team scope" you'd need to be 16,800 meters away.

It doesn't matter what magnification, just the diameter of the objective of the bins or scope you're looking through, because it's the size of the lens, (ergo, the amount of laser stuff it catches) that counts.


Pablito <>
Recouping from a G-R-E-A-T day at the range., USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 12:08:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm looking for a PSS stock for a short action without DM. Does anyone have one floating around? Thanks, Mike.
Mike <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 13:46:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks for the info Brother Paul.

My problem with the laser situation is that (and I'm sure some of you guys can relate to this) when I am running a firing line many guys want to use thier laser range finders. While Class 1 lasers are "eye safe" how eye safe are they when you have multiple users blasing away and you have observers (me and others) peering through high power optics?

If you guys didnt know Storm Mountain is now running adventure training (scuba, rock climbing etc)in addition to firearms stuff. Check it out at Looks interesting.

Dudes, I'm running the Autauga Arms US Super Sniper Shootout at Camp Gruber, Oklahoma next year from 25-28 March. Now don't get riled but this event is Police/Military only but I'm looking at running another open competition later on. So if you're LE/Military and are interested hang on a few weeks and we'll get you more info. I have a meeting in a week with the principles and when everything is set in concrete Autauga will post information on thier website. It should be certified for LE through the Oklahoma version of POST.

Out here.
Gooch <>
Norman, AR, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 14:31:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Brother Gooch (Monk of the Secret order of Riflemen)...

The civilian lasers are "SO" underpowered that you have "no worrys, Mate!"
They are designed to be safe, even if some dingleberry looks right into the front of it, and "shoots his dumb self" in the eye... which is why they have such limited range.

No worrys...

Brother 'lito

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 14:43:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damn, where do you come up with all this stuff!!!

I had the same problem with IMR-4895 when I stated shooting long range in the winter time. I found I would be "Feet" low at times past 600yds from my summer time data. It was damn cold but I was really shocked when it first happened to me. That is why Pete and I love VARGET and eat it on our cerial in the morning its the best powder there is when you live in a country that goes from 110 to a -40 below. Also I don't think you need to worry about that Ford spinning the rear tires(HA). (I am a chevy man) I am building a 85 camaro bracket car with a big block. You can get tires now that are street legal that will hold you mustang contact me off line.

Welocme aboard, enjoyed your posts.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 14:46:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slug Boy, good info and no attitude stay awhile. The mission list is excellent.

Bravo, I hate AA2520. Varget works very much like IMR4064 and that one works well in my M14. I have not messed with Varget much but love 4064.

I worked like a dog this weekend and anyone who sent a check has a sling on the way. All caught up until I check the mail for the last three days.LOL

Optics, buy as good as you can afford. I would watch out for the Tasco Super Sniper series. They used to be great but the last few I saw failed and were obviously not the same quality as ones made two years ago.

Anyone find bulk brass for the 260 Remington yet?

Well the good man Jeff B., sent me some more 338 Lapua Brass from Canada and I need to load it up for some real distance shooting.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 14:50:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Brav; M1's on paper/I have to say you must be right. I've seen the same things with the M1a's of course. I was shooting some VARGET in it by the way and it worked quite well. The bullet was the 168 grain Match King Sierra.
I probably have been dealing with junkers and not knowing how to fix em. It did quite well, The Little Saveage scout shot a nice little group just inside the M1 group but that's beside the point. The M1 did fine. The grandkids got a kick out of shooting it.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 15:27:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
BRAVO I have used the sand and earth brown. The sand is like ocean beach sand in color. HEAR IN wv WE DON'T HAVE MUCH OF THAT. I haven't used the field drab or earth red but they might be worth a try. Here in the mountains I use a base of Mariene corps green then blotch over it with asstd. OD,black, earth brown, etc. Outa here to go scout whitetails..
Markwell <>
seneca, wv, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 15:56:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
I "get that stuff" from my 8 yo son HA! ;)

I went to the IDPA Match yesterday, and had a ball.
Rob and his bunch run a first class match, and are very nice to newcomers.
They weren't even too mad when I shot the RO... twice!
They just gave me a "proceedural error" cuz I was new, but said don't do it next time...

But the best part of the day, was after the match.

I took the new M-24 that I built this summer, to their rifle range.
So far, I have just shot it at 100 yds, working up a load to match the cam...

So Sunday was the first time I shot it out a bit.

A friend set up a 3.5" yellow computer floppy disk for a target... at 400 yds... military laser (AN/GVS-5) measured!

I ranged it in meters, and dialed the M3-LR to the range (M118-LR cam),
and fired 3 shots.

I saw one fly spot on it, (not using a spotting scope, just the 10x riffle scope)...
...but couldn't see the other two shots, so I went on to shoot the steel targets

When target changes were in order, a fella went out to get them.

At 400 yards, with just setting the cam, and no other compensation, I got the below group... 0.46" at 400 yards...
...WITNESSED!! By one of the Rosterfarians on this site.

Go see the rifle at

and the group at:

It's the best I ever shot!

But... other than being a bit proud, the real reason for this post is this...
There are those that will argue over and over, and say one turn, M3 style, tac scopes are unreliable, and don't track... BS!

They say you can't hit fine targets... BS!

Ask PeteR, or Rob... when the ammo is properly matched to the cam... they are instant death!

Life ain't bad today... I'm feelin' mighty fine ;)

I like my beer to be Molsen or Coors, iced!, and my bacon cheeseburgers very rare ;))

Pablito <>
Feelin' so good, I can't stand myself!! In the good ol' (hopefully soon to be Republican), USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 16:54:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

I bought some Krylon Camo paint at Walmart this past weekend. I am going to use it to camo my Rem 700 VS in McMillan A4 stock. Before I start painting, I want to know how to remove it. I know that paint thinner will remove the paint from the steel, but what about the stock? I don't want the paint thinner to destroy the stock. Also, is there anything to avoid painting? I know not to paint my scope and barrel, but what else? I would like to paint the body of the bolt, the part you can see through the ejection port.

For 260 brass, can you just run 308 through a FL sizing dies and use it in a 260 or is other prep required. It would be nice to be able to use Lapua or Fed GM brass. I don't mind a little work but I am not anal enough to do neck turning or something like that.

For a little more punch off the line you might try a JATO pack. I think 3.5 to 1 lbs/HP rating is a little high.

I remember a Car and Driver test 0-100-0 test where the 427 Cobra was beaten only by a Viper and 1996 or 1997 911 turbo.

The Shooter <>
God Bless Tx, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 17:36:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo - Our '82 pattern webbing for the C1's were nylon - the pouches 2x20rd mags are not the best. I might be able to locate some - but you will have to change the attachment system (its made for the Cdn belt not the Alice one) and the closure method would be better off being replaced.

'lito - beauty group

I had wondered where we got the Vector Bino's from, they worked to well to be a Canadian only item. I should have guess we copied the Brit's - We seem to have copied the .338 LM AI AWM from them too.

Patrick Sciaroni "I need 300 meters so that the bullet drop compensator is calibrated" If you really have the TA01-NSN ACOG - just zero it at 100m, the scribe lines for the other ranges will be bang on. The particular barrel calibration will be marked on the bottom on the reticle - Mine says M4A1 - and they are bang on with the 14.5 barrel to 600m.

Kevin <>
Canada - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 18:22:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shooter: there's a guy out at WSMR that has a canary yellow Cobra S/C. He's WELL more than my desired 700 hp, and has no problem lifting the front tires off the ground. That's what I'm aiming for. BTW, the Hennessey Viper Venom 600 is a touch conservative in rating.

Pat: your Varget comments enthuse me! So, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of velocity deviations do you get with a 308 load from summer to winter? Out here, we go from 100+ to (worst case for the last several years) -40. The guys at Sierra told me that Varget was the most thermally stable as well (followed closely by VV N-135). BTW, I don't have a 'Stang, got a Grabber. Wheel wells are TOO NARROW!! so spin tires is all I do, after the tranny gets "bulked up".
Don't you know distributors belong up front where God put them? HA!

Secret orders? Conspiracies to hoard Varget? Cats and dogs living together? I would get worried, but I remember *ONCE* 'Lito, Mike, 'Yote bait, and Kent ALL agreed and the world didn't end ;-)

Markwell: how dark did that earth brown turn out? A good match for desert 3 color? You didn't have to seal or prime the barrel or stock before using that stuff did you?
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 18:35:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

For what it's worth here are the NOHD's we use for the AN/GVS-5: 2.7km for the unaided eye, 13km for 7x50 binos, 21km for 8cm optics, and 27km for 12cm optics. These are worse case numbers and will normally be less when taking into account humidity, haze, dust etc. But then again, I'd rather not have a hole burned in my retina so I'm NOT going to be stupid around lasers. If you think these are bad, the LANTIRN pod laser has a NOHD of 377km for 12cm optics. These numbers come from NAVSPAWARINST 5100.12B and I got them in Jan 1999 when I did the cat II, Laser Safety Officer course. Of course, these are the same guys who told me that a Neodynium YAG laser was not visable to NVG's so maybe you might want another source. I'm trying to get a laser safe range so I can try it myself, but I'm not too keen on going to Ft McCoy in December. It tends to be a little cold, and I really like being warm. Then again, dumb assed me is going deer hunting in the UP just a week earlier. I envy you guys who can just up and do things without having to play all the silly admin/safety nazi games. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 19:50:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just a reminder:

All of you in the US need to get out and vote tomorrow. It doesn't matter who you vote for (although I have my preferences), you just need to stand up and be counted. We have one of the best governmental systems devised to date, but it is no different from the worst if people avoid their civic responsibilities.

For those of you outside the US, vote whenver your elections come up. Again, keeping the government you want is dependent on your participation.

Karl <>
Damn Cold, MN, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 19:59:40 (ZULU) (your host address:


Damn that laser is not eye safe !!!!!

It burns holes in computer disk !

Or did you blind old Pete with that ?

good shooting


torsten <>
germany - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 20:06:16 (ZULU) (your host address:


It's been a long time since I posted to the Duty Roster. I have prefered to lurk around and have been incredibly busy in the last few months.

However, I will break my cloistering and vow of silence for this one off-topic post today.

Tomorow is election day. This election will be one of the most critical that the firearms owning community has ever seen. The anti-gunners KNOW this and they are pushing VERY hard to get Democrats elected to positions of power.

In California during a showing of Crimson Tide on NBC this weekend, there were at LEAST 3 IN YOUR FACE anti-Gun ads supporting democrats, slamming the NRA, and infering 'Peace In Our Time' if these gun-grabbers are elected.

I probably do not need to tell you the importance of the presidential race. Whoever is elected to power will be able to appoint maybe as many as FOUR Supreme Court Justices. The Supreme court WILL determine the future 'interpretation' and thus the application of the second ammendment. In short they will determine whether or not civilians will be able to posess firearms in the next few years. This legacy will live on for generations.

If Gore is elected it is nearly certain that these people will not be our friends.

If the Democrats take back control of the congress we will also lose incredible amounts of ground.

If there was a time to vote and to actively get your friends to vote it is NOW! Tomorrow is absolutely CRITICAL for our futures.

In 1776 one man, Ceaser Rodney felt SO strongly in favor of independence that he left basically his death bed to come back to congress to break a tie vote in his state's representative delegation so that the colonies could declare their own sovereignty.... and later to secure these rights for us.

YOUR vote will make a difference tomorrow.
PLEASE get out there even if it means a bit of discomfort.
Vote this year, because it may well be the most critical vote our country will have in many generations.

Sorry for the length of this message.
Charles <>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 20:08:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Noted Jeffs Comments on British 'Master Sniper'
1. The term is actually used quite off handedly, not being an official title but how the highest ranking Sniper Instructor is referd to when in Sniping post.

2. Courses in the UK, Only the Royal Marines have continued to conduct Sniper courses continually since the second World War. They however only carryout basic courses. I was thus supprised to discover that the Marine Bn., that relieved us in Sierra Leone did not have a Sniper section!

3. The Falklands conflict really open our eyes to how far behind we had become in the Sniping World (we still fielded L42's,7.62mm versions of the No 4T rifle)with a x3 sight and scout Regiment scope of WW1 origins.

4. This experience resulted in the procurement of the AI l96 rifle with x6 Schmidt & Bender scope. The M49 spotting scope was meant to replace the scout Reg but some Bn's never got this (even to this day)
The x 6 was chosen because' the powers that be' requested a rifle to match the L42 (x6 suppassed this request) Snipers were not asked.

5. Courses re-appeared in the early eighties in ernest. Due to the size of the Army a 'Master Snipers course' was fielded to train Snipers to return to their units select and train snipers. Similar to the SOS courses of WW1 (but more indepth)

6. This course changed title to 'Sniper instructors Cse' in the late eighties. In the early 90's the course became more operational and field sniping orientated, with employment lessons etc.. being taught.

7. Also in the early 90's the Foot Guards and Parachute Regiment centralised courses (a Training unit) began to run basic courses the the Guards and Para Bn's.

8. One year ago an advanced Sniper course and an employment officers course were also added to this units course programmes.

9. Also last year Sniper were officially established in the British Army (for the first time)However the establishment is for two pairs per Coy and not a Section.

10. 1 Para held 14 x L96 rifles and 12 x .338 rifles. Hence the formation of a section which worked together from Kosovo till the present move to Dover. Due to a upcoming operational tour this section has been re-roled until return from tour. Then the section will reform after another selection cadre.

11. It is worth noteing that Sniping is classed as the No1 priority for training on re-role and that the extra wpns are used to allow each Rifle Coy two sharpshooter pairs.

Hope this is of interest Slugboy!
Slugboy <>
Engalnd - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 20:26:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike & Shooter,
You can buy bulk 260 brass in Remington from Lock,Stock and Barrel in Valentine, Nebraska. If you want the best brass around I would buy Lapua in 308 and use a 7MM-08 neck die to neck it down and then run it through the 260 die and fire form it. If you do it this way you don't get any neck run out and your fire forming shots will usually be as good as the formed cases. If you run the 308 brass through the 260 die and do it in one step you get a lot of neck run out. Hope this helps!! I have the number for Lock,Stock and Barrel at home if you would need it.

I cronographed it at 90+ one day and at somewhere in the 20s one other time and there wasn't enough difference that you could say there was a difference. I really do think it works as advertised.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 20:39:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

All this talk of Varget has me interested. What load do you guys use in 308 with Varget? I rermember several people using 43.0 or 44.0 gr with 175gr SMKs. My Sierra manual (50th Anniversary CD) lists 40.0gr as the max load. Since the load is about 10% over maximum I would of course work up to it, I just want to know what people are using.

I read in Shooting Times that Remington is introducing the 7mm RUM and 375 RUM. The 375 may be what you are looking for Bolt. The 7mm looks like the most efficient barrel burner to date. My guess is 800 rounds. Do I hear any higher?

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 21:30:20 (ZULU) (your host address:


I'm using 43.8 to 44.2 of Varget w/175 SMK's, in several match grade rifles... it's NOT a hot load, case life is excellent... and it makes itty-bitty holes... ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 21:55:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

What are the draw backs if any of the Blackhawk special ops load bearing LBE? Is the use of velcro a problem? US cavalry has a great deal on this set up. It includes the H-harness, web belt, 2 canteen pouches, butt pack, and 4 AR15/M16 mag pouches for $120.00. The only draw back on the deal is that the only color they have left is Black. A can of OD spray paint can fix that though, right? Has any one used this particular rig? Any pointers? Thanks, John
John <>
NC, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 22:50:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damn fine shooting son! Sure hope my .300 RUM data wasn't on the disk.


Don't make me have to "Vargetize" you,

Its worse than a year of the Kimberization proceedures.

Now Lets see - Pat Murphy likes it, Sierra likes it, Lito likes it, Little Mikey Miller COULD LIKE IT[tlmao],and even I like it.

"Varget- Its not just for breakfast anymore."

PS: Nice job on the recent posts guys and Welcome "Slug Boy" you will fit right in here with the rest of the characters.
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 23:08:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Torst,Bravo, Pat ... when he saw that first hole in that disk he knew it was time to shoot the metal! Shall we let him count that one or does he have to shoot 2 more shots! God this place is fun sometimes!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 23:49:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was reading about the case in April '97 where a US intelligence officer observing a Russian merchant ship with binoculars was evidently blinded by an infra-red laser projected from the ship. The officer was observing the ship from a helecopter as it was suspected of spying on our nuc subs near Puget Sound. I'll bet you some jerk on the Russian ship had been using one of their military laser rangefinders on the subs and turned it on the helecopter. Our wonderful State Dept. kept the incident tied up in red tape long enough for the Russians to hide any evidence we might have found.

Anyway, their military rangefinders have to use high power to get extended ranges against camo'ed targets and to compensate for the lack of sensitivity in their sensors. I haven't heard of anyone ever getting injured from the civilian-approved versions, I suspect they're so anemic you'd have to line up a hundred of them to approach a dangerous level, our vigilant government bureaucrats being the tight-assed kind of people they are.

Separate subject: I took the AT1-C24 to the Sacto tactical match yesterday. Last month I did piss-poor with it since I had a new load and no dope. This month I came in fourth and took some money home, but there's still lots of room for improvement. Damn, that thing is nice on the rapid-fire strings: I had a 1-inch 3-shot group from about 320 yards out, 35 seconds target exposure from a standing start.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, November 06, 2000 at 23:49:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


AAARRRGGGGHHHH on painting the LBE!!!!!! Tried it, ruined it, won't do it again! The paint will crack and blister, if the LBE shoulder padding gets wet it will take forever for it to dry and, you will always smell the paint forever or until itall peels off!

I tried a Blackhawk on at one of the local weapons of mass destruction shows here in town and I would just as soon have an old surplus one for the money. Just a comment here, consider the LBV before you take the LBE, you have a lot more options with the mag pouches whether you stick mags in them or not. Great for snacks, poker cards and chips, a long neck Bravo Brew possibly!

JMHO as always. My opinion and 2 cents might get you thrown in jail.


Gentlemen of the long gun!!!!! Listen the heck up!!!!!

Tomorrow is VOTING DAY. You know the rest. If you don't vote, don't bitch. If you do vote and your guy doesn't win, try again next time. If you vote for the Gorebasm, damn shame on you! Gunowners have only a couple of choices and he ain't one of them. Thank you and have a nice day!

Bolt OUT!
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 00:02:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Grasshopper: Good to see you back.

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 00:14:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Need help quick
Whats a reasonable price for a glock 22 used.
Very good to excellant condition
no night sites Please help.
shawn Mcnally <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 00:30:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
'yote Bate...
Jeez, I don't get no respect on this site ;)... leave those nurses alone, and get out in the bush.

>>Sure hope my .300 RUM data wasn't on the disk.<<
Uh... well... uh... now that you mention it... OK, I can take a hint... I'll run it tonight.

Welcome back Dude! I remember that incident well. I have a friend that has one of those Ruskie units, and it will damn near peel paint at a mile... he easily gets readings past 20 miles on tough targets... whew.
I can't figure why that trawler captain was using a laser, the rader should have been enough, but the guy did go blind, and OUR government had to pay him a settlement... why not the Ruskie captain???
Damned if I can figure it out???


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 00:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Interesting bit of history I think. Check out e-bay and do a search for "Unertl" and go to the "USMC C3" listing.
Looks like the owner is fittin' to make a nice penny from it.

Darren <>
Back in the good ol' US...finally, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 01:07:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: Ruskie captains make about $4.75 per month. How would he pay? ;-) The 'Yote bait doesn't need ot get out in the bush, he's like you and needs to get INTO the bush!

Shawn: $360, factory refurbished, and sometimes with a high cap.

Grasshopper: long time no jump! Is it a "green thing"? ;-) Welcome back.

PeteR: All right, you got it. I'll shove some of these left over (half case) 168's into some brass with Varget. Hope it meters as well as the Vihta and the 2520.

Voting: thanks for the reminder, I might have forgot it was tomorrow. HA! YEAH RIGHT!! Well, if algor gets in, you can claim it's my fault for depriving GW of my single vote (it sure the hell would never go to a liberal though!). But if Bush gets in, then it's your fault! Speaking of voting, take a peek at the site, I've got something there about voting fraud! Imagine! Seems that someone in the government has been sending voters registration CARDS (not apps) to non-citizens based on their personal info! I know it won't surprise you to hear that the name signed at the bottom of these form letters was Clintons.

Voters contribute nothing. It's the vote counters that contribute everything. -Iosef Stalin
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 01:38:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the welcome-back. My enthusiasm got dampened when the California Attorney General turned my SR-25 into dog meat in August, but the AT arriving shortly after helped a lot. Also spending too much time with the computers and playing political foot-soldier: I was out walking precincts last Saturday. Everybody get out and vote tomorrow and make it all worthwhile -- and take a friend.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 02:01:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ahhhhsssoooo, Grasshopper! Nice to see you back. You must have snatched the pebble from the hand. Looking forward to your words or wisdom again!

Note of interest, do not shoot a 450# wild boar anywhere but behind the ear! Buddy of a buddy shot a 450# boar behind the shoulder against the direction of the guide/land owner. Was using 300
Weatherby Mag at 70 yards. Made big circle and came right back to tree stand that he was hunting from. Boy collected his witts and shot him behind the ear dropping him thusly. When the possible S.C. record hawg was cleaned the first booollet was found to have gone through his 1/2 hide and stopped 3" into his fat layer. The guide said it was a good thing the kid was in a stand cause the pig was really just pissed off at the first shot and came looking for where it came from.

Have a nice voting day!
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 02:49:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ahhhh yes! But the more I learn, the more my ignorance is revealed. Such is the enigma of knowledge.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 03:21:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Huntin' season must be in swing cuz' were seeing a lot of posts with that topic. Wish you all the best. No matter what you're hunting.

Last Sunday spent in heavy timber. Lot's of deer sign, but MORE ELK sign. Rooseveldt Elk season starts Saturday. My partner and I are ready! Anything spike or bigger is legal.

Wish us luck. Season is only 5 days long, cover is heavy, and we are hopeful...doesn't get much better than that.

Sorry, no sniper/long range stuff this post. All on hold until after elk season.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 03:58:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Greetings everyone,

Looking for a VarGet load for my .308 using the Hornaday's 150gr SST bullets for up coming deer hunting season.

Jeff <>
McKinney , TX, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 04:33:43 (ZULU) (your host address:


True, the more you learn, the more you notice your own ignorance.

Truer, those who refuse to learn, or think they know everything, reveal their ignorance to everyone else.

Semper Fi, and Bravo's next three words.
Mark <>
trying to overcome ignorance in, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 05:01:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes: I'm going to try Mid-Valley Coast with a friend of mine this weekend and have heard about a herd around Pedee. I suppose a lot of people have. Any word your way? On another note, am in the process of joining Wren and hope to meet you there some time. What a deal! Cheap coldies at one place and shooting at another.

Everyone: Just finished Jeff Water's posting in the Training section titled, "Sniper FTX Summary". Excellent! Nothing this gentleman has presented is rocket science to anyone who has attended formal military training, BUT, it is so well formatted and covers all the requisite aspects of field sustainment training for the average grunt sniper it deserves to be admired by all. Hooah, Fu--ing, Hooah! I've tried over the last seven years, with limited success, to provide educational and interesting training to a National Guard (yes, Nasty Guard) E-Brigade Scout PLT. Every POI that I have written has tried to take into account the many facets that Mr. Waters has discussed in his article. However, I cannot recall one event that has addressed all of them. If you are in my position, (I know that some of you are, I have spoke with you at the matches and I know that you monitor this site) please take the time to print this article. Mr. Waters is to be commended for his insight and completeness. Use this resource to further train your soldiers.

Scouts Out!
OR, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 08:33:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just a question for anyone with info.
Does anyone have any idea where I could find the Snipers Black Book(s)
by Chandler & Chandler? I think there are five volumes out now.
Rifle Six .
Jared <>
Utah, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 11:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
This Roster is rockin' and flyin'... I go to make a sandwich, and it's 75Kb bigger :))

>>Ruskie captains make about $4.75 per month. How would he pay? ;-)<<

Well, high powered lasers have been declaired weapons, which means the captain commited an act of war against a U.S. military helicopter... you jail the captain, confiscate the boat, and auction the sucka'... I bid $100 for the laser ;))

>>The 'Yote bait doesn't need to get out in the bush, he's like you and needs to get INTO the bush!<<
Works for me ;))

And... for all you hard core constitutionalists (and you know who you are ;)... go vote for Bush... Harry Brown AIN'T gonna give you any gun rights (or any other rights either!), cuz he ain't gonna win... we have a common enemy that MUST be defeated, then we can get back to discussing political "Utopia!!"

'lito (on the the way to you know where!)

Pablito <>
Lord, I promise to eat all my spinache, and clean my room and toys... Please grant my wish today... make the USA free of these vermin..., USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 11:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablo: The million-pound-s**thammer falls today. Clinton/Gore gets the bum's rush by seven plus points.

Don't you hear the fat lady warming up?

And I'd crawl over broken glass to do my part.

No more politics from me.

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 13:05:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

You're right Lito' I'm headed for the Bush! IF he don't win... I'm duckin for the deep bush. God Bless America and them that seek to keep her free! Geo W. is the only small hope we have. Get out and put em down. One shot one kill for tyranny!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 13:14:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
With three different forms of issue winter weather gear for the US, and a myriad of other options available via foreign surplus and through civilian means, I'm looking for some well thought out advice on a cold weather clothing setup.

I currently have polypro first layer materials and lofty, synthetic second layer materials, but lack the gore-tex outer garments.

I have read that the first gen US gore-tex suits have a problem with exposed liners at the pant/jacket interface wicking moisture into the suit.

I will be using this suit as a base for three to four day excursions this winter, so it needs to be a pretty solid solution...
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 14:12:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jared: Chandler books... try giving them a call... 910.455.3834
IronBrigade Armory.


I was hoping to find a Gore supporter this morning standing outside of the polling place - where they usually are saying "vote this, do that, etc". I had my "You're outa your f**k**g mind" response loaded and ready... but darn.... ;)

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 14:42:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Life ain't bad today... I'm feelin' mighty fine ;)

Damn 'lito that has me feeling fine!!! Man that's great stuff.
Where can I get the levels( Do they have an official hanlde?) like in the photo.
Want to say thanks to you and all of the others here for all the great advise on guns and ammo. Got the Stealth together with a LR M3, Badger base and rings and it is going fine. After break in I loaded a box of 175's and groups average slightly under .5 MOA with about 1/3 of the groups at 100 yds and the other 2/3 at 200 yds. Had several groups under .25 MOA. Boy to my greenhorn eyes that looked pretty darn good. The gun is a pleasure to shoot. Gotta load and see what happens at 600 yd. Again, damn that's fine 400 shooting you did!!!
Medulla762 <>
oooohh that smell, in the Land of the Stealth, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 15:15:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm looking for a place to buy a quantity of AR 15 parts, upers, barrels and accessories. Do you guys know of such a place to buy quality parts in quantity?

LeMay <>
MI, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 16:01:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


Can't thank you enuf for the info you've been posting. Thats exactly the type of info I have been trying to get lined up with.

I would love to get my hands on any training materials for the Sniper Employment Officer Courses as long as its open source material.

Keep feeding me info like you have been and I'll get you some moose and venison jerky in the mail with some homeade maple syrup. Ain't much, but all we got here!


I admit it. I paid SSG Maries to say those things about my article to try and redeem myself from the chicken massacre controversy.

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 16:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lemay: Check out

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 16:28:17 (ZULU) (your host address:


Go to IronBrigadeArmory Website. The books go for $50.00 each.

Thomasville, Ga., USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 17:19:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Timekeeping and Light Dicipline for Snipers:

A question that has been bugging me of late: when in a hide at niote, how does one inspect ones watch, consult maps, read compasses and perform other functions that require light in an environment where one assumes that the opposition has NVDs. I assume that a tritium -dialed watch or compass can be spotted from low earth orbit by Mir cosmonauts using sorry GEN 1 gear. Flashlight? Dos'nt sound too "bright" to me, heh, heh. :)

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 17:33:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

On light dicipline,

For starters, use a red-lens flashlight. If you cannot find a red-lens filter for your specefic light, go to any place that has a theater and you can get red cellulose filters that they use on their lighting systems. Or try a photography store and get B&W darkroom filters, there aren't as good because you have to use several layers.

If you have the materials, you can do what I have seen and done. Make a hood, similar to a sunshield on a scope. If you use the small AAA mini-mag light, you can cut the end off of a .45 casing and attach it to the end of the light. For the larger lights, you can fabricate something like that.

Use a good old fashioned poncho to mask your nite light when doing your map-work.

I use all three simultainiously, although for quick reference stuff breaking out the poncho is not always an option.

On a sad note in regards to the voting,

As I was standing in line as school waiting for a slice of pizza, I happened to overhear a 21 year old kid talking to his friends on this was his first time voting.
So, I think, "hey, a younger kid getting into changing the country" regardless of who he decided to vote for. ( although, Bush has my vote)
Then I hear his reasoning into why he voted. The only reason he is even going to vote is because his grandparents are goping to take him out to dinner if HE vites the way THEY tell him to.
I almost passed out when I heard that.

For those of you with kids of have any influence over the younger generation, please instill the importance of the political process. Whether you vote or don't vote, you still express your rights as a citizen by making that choice.

I can't believe that a free meal can make someone vote a particular way. If that is the case, I'm on my way to all the homeless shelters with whoppers, fries and a coke for all the hungry people who will vote the way I want them to.


Semper Fi, and....VOTE

Kush out

Kush <>
Great White Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 18:16:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kush: you're too late. The story ran yesterday about the DNC and bribing the homeless with packs of ciggies. This only tops the voter fraud perpetrated in two states with the non-citizens being handed voters registration cards without them sending in the application.

Ken: I don't say *ANYTHING* to them. I just go and get a cop. There's a law that states you can't advertise for politicians within 100 feet of a polling place. Sometimes the cops are hesitant to arrest. In one case, I made mention of the fact that she should have known better, and was flagrantly breaking the law, as she was running for judge! This goes as far as not allowing "Vote for X" buttons in the polling!

Partner Jim: I dunno what generation my goretex parka is, but it works GREAT in the bad weather. Including motorcycles through rain. Except the underarm zippers leak if you're going close to highway speed. For snow or rain, it's my FIRST choice. However, it's loud.

Wild Bill and Patron 'Lito: I'm all for seeing algor defeated. Don't get me wrong. I just have a hard time voting for someone that has already stated that he's for extending the assault rifle ban that sunsets in 2004, and backs all current gun laws. And doesn't believe that any person should pay over 50% of their income to the government. And I could go on, but I won't. I *DO NOT* wish to dissuade anyone for voting for Bush, but I can't with a clear concience. And I think nobody here will roast me for doing what I feel I have to so that I can "do the right thing" as I see it. And if someone does, I'll quite happily rub it in their face the first time that Bush signs an unconstitutional law, which I'm guessing will be in the first 100 days.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Working for a solution that includes politics rather than bullets, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 18:31:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wondering whether I'd be throwing money away for no more accuracy:
I'm considering buying a new Steyr SBS Tactical SBC (20" HB)...
Can I expect this rifle to be more accurate than Steyr's ProHunter line (with 23.6" standard barrel in .308)? Do they share the same 2-stage trigger group? Any SBS experience out there?
Thanks, and thanks for voting.
watchmy6 <>
San Diego, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 19:56:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo, I'm hoping that Cheney will shove his boot so far up Bush's posterior if Bush even thinks of not letting the BradyBill sunset.

Tell you what, I wish it was a Keyes/Cheney or a Cheney/Keyes ticket, I'll back those guys any day of the week.

Bush/Cheney did get my vote though, and I'm hoping we'll be spending the next 4 years with them rather than Gore.

Anybody know exactly when I should start drinking in order to work up a good buzz for when they start releasing the poll information? Bad news might be easier to take, better yet maybe I'll pass out and not wake up till it's all over and done with.

The local gunshop, like a 2nd home to me, is having a 10% off sale today. I'm off to go browse the store and see if there isn't something I want to get. I'm still thinking about a purchase with the idea of calling it a "celebration rifle" if Bush wins or calling it a "spite rifle" if Gore wins. They got a Sendero in 300WinMag, a Springfield M1A Loaded version, and some other good stuff from Bennelli.

Be back later, possibly a bit lighter in the wallet too!
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 20:52:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

While I agree that Bush may not be the best, Cheney and Keyes would be nice, he is the best chance we have. Since Bush is the candidate to beat in this election, a non-vote is a vote for Gore. In a true democracy I would agree with your decision to not vote, but with the electoral college running things, we need your vote. The idea of getting Gored is just plain scary. If he is elected, our beloved web site will die since every single one of us will be in prison serving life terms for having too much information and being a menace to society. I realize that I will not change your mind, but thnk you for reading. I suppose we will agree to disagree.

I think we can get George W. Bush to listen to logic and not continue the Crime Bill in 2004. If we are lucky and our Congressmen get off their collective asses we might have our high caps and flash supressors back by February. Maybe with Clinton gone they will quit being a bunch of wimps that are afraid of their own shadows.

Imagine a world where the president and congressman have read the Constitution. It would be like, almost the way it was 213 years ago when they knew what freedom was about.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 21:10:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

You guys who were in contact with me ref: PLCE rucksacks. Drop me a line. I have several of them enroute. Should take delivery in a week or so. These are brand new with new side pouches and new yokes for converting the side pouches into an assault pack.Everything is olive green not DPM camouflage.Email me and I'll give you the specifics.
Don <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 22:27:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
Shooter: I'm sure my post was ambiguous, so please let me clear something up. I'm voting for Browne this go-around, not staying home. I wouldn't stay home, as that would be more against my morals than anything. I *NEVER* want to live in a democracy, there's a great reason why we never had one. Same as a large central government, they're evil and inherrently unstable. They (the republicans) won't ever grow a backbone, they're on the take too. See the post on the Patriots USA site titled "Corruption says it all". It's a Judicial Watch update on John Huang, the "bad guy" that was diverting illegal campaign funds to the White house AND HIGH RANKING REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS. Names are named. He's now looking at 131 charges of contempt (for what he WOULDN'T tell), and claimed the 5th before that over 2,000 times. They're in it together. I would challenge anyone who says differently to explain the lack of attention to the nuclear secrets leaving our country and the lack of removal from office of a known criminal. I agree, things will be better after this evening. We will be formally done with this cum-hander in cheif and his trusty humidor monica. BAH!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 22:33:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ref. Red Lens Flashlight (torch)

The flip-up scope caps with the amber lenses in them for see-through can be converted to red lens and then attached to a Mini Maglite. The very small versions used on the 7/8" rimfire scopes fit the bell on the Mini Maglite perfectly. This way the red lens is in place for low profile work but can be flipped up to expose white light in an instant. I've found the Mini Maglite to be all the flashlight I need in the field. Although I did just get a four LED flashlight the other day that claims 400 hours operation on four AAA batteries. It'll need to be field tested before adoption.

Along this line, where can I get a blue lens cover for my strobe light? I had one once when it was very important that aircraft being signaled not mistake the strobe for a muzzle flash. Now I'd just like to have one for ah...well you know...just to have one.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 22:35:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Light - try splitting a red and blue lens cover and glueing them together. With the red only you will miss some rather important features on the map (roads and trails) - and a blue only you might get wet without planning it. With a combo you can see everything w/o switching filters.

Map checks - like was mentioned get under a poncho/liner etc. Ensure you are properly orientated for your next leg(s) and go.

- Tritium glow etc. the compass, your Elcan or ACOG, and watches all give off some glow. You cannot defend against everything or you will never get anywhere. Like anything the trick is to best balance the necessity of covering the object with the requirement to be able to access them (preferably silently) Turning the watch so it is on your lower forearm reduces some chance - it is also more visible while supporting your rifle - compass drop it down yuor shirt. - cover or remove the tritium front post on the M4A1 ACOG, I wouldn't cover the rear of the ACOG or ELCAN - based on the assumption that I might need it PDQ and if someone is behind me close enought to see it, I'm probably screwed anyhow.

SlugBoy - can you give a rough estimate of your kit weight

Gee, Voting... With any luck us Canadians will toss the Liberal Party this month and it could be a clean sweep for North America -ht we all could get boned...

Kevin <>
Canada - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 23:09:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, thanks for the kind words about the club and it's memebers, which hopefully you will join it's ranks. Anytime you want to come down and hit the 400 yards just let me know.

And for anyone doubting Lito's group at 400 yards I can say that it is the truth and I witnessed it. Also his M24 is a very sweet piece. I can see why it's as accurate as it is. Well back to watching the election results...Bush has won two states but hopefully there will be more! GO BUSH!!!!
Rob <>
USA - Tuesday, November 07, 2000 at 23:36:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pete, Thanks for the insight at H-S. They are going to put a 1 in 11.25 twist rate on my 308 HTR. It will be nice to have it to Mil-Spec. Thanks, Daren

Daren Yancey <>
Idaho, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 02:11:03 (ZULU) (your host address:


Election Day. Guess I don't have to tell you to vote. You've said, again and again, how important it is and I agree. It's, perhaps, the one thing we have any say about left in this country.

When I left work at 5:00 PST Bush had carried South Carolina, Virginia, Indiana, and Kentucky. Former Marine Senator Chuck Robb(Democrat) was unseated in Virginia. I hope what we are seeing initially is a massive whiplash reaction to the last 8 years of Clinton politics. It's still to early to tell and those states are minor import compared to California and the populated N. Eastern seaboard states. We'll know in the morning.

On another note, SSG Maries will be joining the club I shoot at in Wren, Oregon. Welcome. Maybe now I can have a shooting partner!

Another topic: Russ Haydon's Shooter's Supply has Norma 6.5 X .284 in stock. If you're playing with this (and you should be!)they still have some brass left. Give them a call. Also, they will soon have Lapua 6.5 X .284 brass. Guess our manufacturers can't get their collective heads and asses wired together, but the Swedes and Fins can. Probably because they are long time 6.5 shooters and know the value of a good thing when they see it!

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Bodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 02:25:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

I believed results I didn't compile so I was wrong.

The guys who were too principled to vote for the lesser of two evils have helped foist upon us four years of this vicious demagogue and thirty of his Supreme Court nominees.

THAT'S my last political post.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 02:38:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo; we won't roast you, we only wish it worked where we could vote for our real choices. I'm thinking we will have problems when he goes to get reelected trying for that middle vote. It always happens, if Gore gets it we may be just as well off anyway when a duck with a broken leg tries to kick us in the butt. I don't know..whew.. what a country.
Yeah; well Rob, he paid you something to say that we know but what the heck, he gets larger than life if we don't protesteth! I don't if anyone within eyeshot ever doubted it and...we he is!
He's gonna keep on till he costs me about $700 for one of those one turn scopes. Pat hold my hand while I write the check.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 02:45:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: Never take for granted a right that others are currently fighting and dying for. One has to question if Molosovich or Hitler were "the lesser of two evils", would you have voted for them? This moment will go down in history. I will remember that on this night, a former partner of mine publicly told me that I (people such as myself) was responsible for clitton, and I was "too principled". I only wish that this could be said of all the other Americans. I will wear the "too principled" title with my head held high, along with the "radical" from carrying the pocket Constitution. Personally, I find it completely repugnant that I should be denegrated for choosing NOT to vote for someone who believes that America should be subjugated to the united nations. You vote however you like, and I'm glad you do, and I hope it was for Bush the younger. However, if you want to sling mud in my direction, be prepared to take it in wheelbarrow loads. Remember who you voted for when the jackbooted thugs come to get your rifles. Oh, I forgot. As a "long range hunter", you don't have any of those socially distasteful "weapons". Until next year, when they're re-defined to include what you DO have. We all know that Bush openly opposes the bat boys, right? Some will make a stand, and some will not. As for me, mark me solidly in the column with Captain John Parker. Early morning on April 19, 1775 facing 800 British Regulars on their way to Concord to confiscate a cache of arms. Captain Parker, addressing his 70 militiamen gave them thus: "Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, LET IT BEGIN HERE!". Oh, and for the record, I voted for Bob Dole last election. Now to work on being branded "too honest" and "too upstanding". Maybe "too kind" next. If you want to blame someone, why not try blaming those responsible for mass voter fraud, they're illegal, and those whose vote has been bought. They're in the thousands, I'm in the single.

Thanks Wild Bill, I agree completely. And thanks to Moe too.

Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 03:18:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I change channels, and get different winner results... these guys get the big bucks for this guessing game.

'yote bate...
Rob and I are conspiring to get you to buy a one turn tac scope.

Bravo, Dude-ski...
I wasn't beating up on you... you know who my first choice was.
With all the computer stuff in this "hi-tech" country, it amazes me that we vote on machines that are from before WW2.
We ought to be able to have first and second (or more) choices, so that third parties wouldn't be considered as "spoilers" like Perot in '92 and '96.

We could've voted Perot first, and Bush second, so that Bush would've had won...
If we had a first/second choice system, ol' billy boy would have never seen the light. Same in '96.

I would have loved to be able to vote for Allen Keyes... even if he couldn't win.
I don't like this system anymore than you do.

Remember, no mater who wins, this crowd needs to stick together, so lets not beat up on each other too hard, to leave political bruises.

"Can't we just all get along"... NO! Well than where's my ammo ;)

One shot, one De... never mind, I gotta go to bed.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 03:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Marius, et al.,

Please excuse the excessive use of the bandwidth, but I don't post often, so please indulge me.

I realize that this is an international forum, but the USA is the last bastion of private gun ownership rights, so here's my two cents worth.

Currently, the projected electoral vote is marginally for Bush. I am ashamed to say that it looks like New Mexico will go for Gore.

Looks like New Hampsire (State Motto: "Live Free Or Die") is the only state north of PA, MD, DE, and NY that will vote for Bush.

From the time of Sun Tzu, "Divide and Conquer" has been a valid strategic concept. You either do it, or have it done to you. Many in the US were vehemently opposed to our alliance with the USSR during WW II, but the Nazi blood spilled in Stalingrad and other protracted Russian battles prevented a lot of bloodshed on the part of Allied soldiers, and hastened the defeat of the Axis powers.

In the long run, the Western powers prevailed over Communism.

The difference was in a strategic vs. a tactical mindset.

The citizens (not "subjects") of the USA are in the midst of an election that may well divide and conquer them. If Al Gore is elected President, and if the Republicans lose control of Congress, gun ownership rights in this country will take a big hit.

I would urge all voters (in the US and any other country that is contemplating tighter restrictions on private gun ownership) to seriously and closely examine for whom they are voting, and the long-term effects of their votes, and to TAKE THE LONG VIEW!

This is by no means meant as a flame of any individuals (especially those to whom I have provided chile), but, by God, win the battle first, then look to winning the war.

How many of you geezers out there remember the Burma Shave signs along the roadways?

"Here's to the memory
Of Lester Gray
Who died defending
His right-of-way
He was right, dead right
As he sped along
But he's just as dead
As if he'd been wrong"

Burma Shave

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 04:19:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bruce, Wild Bill, Patron 'Lito: I know you guys wouldn't flame me. Besides, we're great good friends, and can have a legitimate disagreement without coming to personal attacks. Part of my decision, as you will notice, is that Utah votes approximately 75%+ ticket republican. One of the church leaders (of the predominant religion) has been taken to task lately for publishing the statement that "You can't be a democrat and a good Mormon". You get the idea. Our state joke is "you hear about the two guys bumbling around last night in the pasture? No, who were they? The Utah democratic party trying to dig up a third guy". Seriously. I knew that my vote was "in good hands", and thus I could afford to be "too principled". BTW, about 18% of the remaining votes go to Liberatarians and American Independents. Sounds great, right? Except for the fact that we've got republican senators that co-sponsor gun control bills with teddy kennedy, reps that vote strongly pro-united nations, and a governor that wanted to torch the US Constitution because he believed he could write better.

Bruce: your ears must have been burning. Cory was talking about coming out soon, and I offered to hand him some good hospitality in the way of a place to stay, some Bravo Brew, and have the wife cook up a big pot of chile. Heck, I want some of that and I'm not even visiting! HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
The banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 05:10:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wee Ha...Man this place gets jumping sometimes...Man it does not look good. Bush and Gore are neck and neck 242/242. Damn, and it looks like Gore has Florida. I did'nt realize my home state is so damn full of liberal pukes.

Ready to road trip west! I think I'm gonna drive through Roswell and see if'n I kin see any aliens!

Cory <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 05:34:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory - Geez Up in Canada We have had 246 Bush to 242 Gore for almost 2 hours. Weird flop in Fla.

I figure I like Bravo's view point, Bush Sr. made sure none of my AR's can go back to the US, I am little worried Bush Jr. might decide my Rice gun can't cross the border
But Clinton made sure I need a US State Department Export Permit to ship scope rings, mounts etc.

Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 06:16:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

271 Bush - Pres Elect
Now I can go to bed.
Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 07:25:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sleep now
Mark <>
Richland, WA, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 07:29:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
Quick Post...

Has the electoral votes at 279. This is good news for our team!

House and Senate remain in Republican Control.

Bush can appoint up to 4 Supreme Court Justices during his tenure.

GENTLEMEN, we are indeed lucky.

NOW, it remains to be seen how much of Clintons tomfoolery they let stand...



P.S. This also means no panic buying of guns, ammo, and reloading components!
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 08:30:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looks like the fat lady was just clearing her throat. You boys will get a shock in the morning, it ain't over yet.
Only 1000 votes in it in Florida and lawyers saying the postal votes aren't in yet,boy is this a close election.

Hope it turns out right in the end.
Mark Dougan <>
uk - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 10:00:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yup, the fat ironic bitch hasn't finished singing quite yet.

We're looking at a recount and a wait till the last absentee ballot has been counted. Bush supposedly holds an advantage with regards to absentee ballots, hope that's true and let's hope it turns out that way.

I felt quite a shock to come home a few hours later from the bar to see Gore closed a 30k vote gap within the 3% of the vote that was remaining. I left with Bush being the winner and came back to a situation that will surely seem as long as a visit at the dentist's office.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 10:43:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


This one is so close that I get a bit paranoid of the final tallies. My disgustingly inbred statewide neighbors have shown their voting preferences to be pathetic at best carrying GORE!.
Too much mindless teevee, and junkfood, and no where near enough REAL WORLD edumacation.

I'm with ya man and think meybee the missus and I were the only Republican votes in the county. The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire revisted here in the USA...........


Toatally disgusted in BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 11:12:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Got up at 5:30 AM... and the whole thing is on Florida... 900 votes difference.
They say that there are tons of mail-in votes, and most of them are from military that's overseas... so we may have it... but this is going to age me ten years, and I don't have that many years to spare.

THANK GOD FOR RALPH NADER!!! I never thought I'd say that, but if it weren't for him, it would have been Gore hours ago... we finely get our revenge for the Perot vote...

They say it may be days before we know who is the next president... :((

Is it OK to drink at 6:00 AM??


Pablito <>
Lord... if you let me down, I'll never eat spinache again! in the confused, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 11:12:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Maybe if I go back to bed I will wake up from this bad dream. The Gorebasms are bound to find some way to screw the Bushmaster out of his rightful throne. Damn I'm whooped!

Have a nice day and is it too early for a Bravo Brew? Has to be 12:00 somewhere!

Bolt, dead tired and out!
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 11:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Republicans lost Connie Mack's seat in Florida to limp wrist demogog Nelson... the former insurance commissioner that made sure our insurance rates doubled after Andrew.

When I voted yesterday, I punched tiny holes in an IBM punch card. You young guys have probably seen punch cards in a museum! Fingers crossed in Florida.
Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 12:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damn all results I didn't compile. When ALL the networks called Florida for the communists and put them up four points in Ohio, I believed them.

Live and learn.

Bravo: Pablito has a better chance at becoming Miss America than Gore had of taking Utah, so you did fine by strengthening the Libertarians. I like them. Sorry if I got a little excited.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 13:08:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well Gentlemen;The shit is about to hit the fan! Standy by your horses...this is gonna get interesting.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 14:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bill R,
I am with 'lito on the one turn scopes!!! If thats what it will take to get you to buy one, I will there for your Buddy and hold your hand while you spend some of that moldy money of yours(HA). I would have them on all my rifles if I could afford them. I have a buddy who is a predator control officer and he has one on his rifle and loves it for the long range work. He will take coyotes at 500+ yards with his set up.

Damn, what and election this is. I finally fell asleep trying to figure out who was going to carry Florida. I thought Bush had it then when I woke up Gore was in it again!!! If you went by the map, mostly covered in red, you would swear to god that Bush had won it. Its real easy to see where the liberals call home!!! You guys can keep them out there on the coasts we don't want them here in the midwest!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 14:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

James Mitchell,

There are basically two types of g-g-g-(wish it had a different name)goretex, two layer and three layer. It refers to how many are actually attached to the goretex itself. Stangely, the 2 layer has the seperately hanging inner layer, while 3 layer appears to be one thick layer. The old style military is two layer, and a three layer version is now available.

2 layer breathes better, and is a little quieter. 3 layer is stiffer, louder, but dries much faster if you over heat or get the inside wet.

I do not recommend that you buy used military goretex. In earlier versions, not all the seams were sealed, so they would leak in some spots. The 2 layer military has a "hydrophilic" or water loving liner, which is what you are referring to. The idea was that it would wick sweat away from the wearer. Nice idea, but it would indeed wick could water into the jacket if any of it was exposed. Usually this happened when the hood was down, when precipitation was light enough that you didn't want the hood up just yet. You can get around this by folding or rolling the hood down inside the jacket. You also have to take care when you raise your arms, so that water doesn't run inside the sleeves. It also can happen at the waist area, as you mentioned, while lying in the prone position. It happened to me about two weeks ago while using mine for LE work. Luckily it was still pretty warm out, and the job only lasted a few hours.

All my personally bought stuff is three layer gore tex now.

This is getting longer than intended, if I can help any more, just email me.

Everyone is invited to check out the association- click my name or
Mark <>
Ohio, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 14:34:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yeah Pat; you guys are right as rain on the scopes I've needed one for a long time. I know that turret like the back of my hand but I still have problems gettin all those clicks in in time to get a shot off. Usually wind up interpolating the dots Yuck! or just Kentucky elevation. IF there is such a thing.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 15:00:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ah, Gents I would not jump to exclusions, Florida is STILL working on a recount. Bush is ahead by about 1700 votes here. But the recount is not completed. I feel like I'm going to go throw up.

It still floors me that WE (FLorida) did not carry Gee Dubbya by a landslide! It is all the freakin' welfare pukes and old people on Govenment Dole ( Socialist Security) that are afraid they will lose their "entitlements".

My Parents are just getting ready to retire and they made noises like they were afraid to vote for Bush...I told 'em God would burn their house down and I'd be holdin' the torch!

I'm monitoring the liberal socialist media as we speak, and they are just making me wanna blow CHUNKS!

Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 16:04:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

I agree with Lito, I've been saying it on other sites but didn't mention it here "THANK GOD FOR NADER." His hatred of Gore is what truely made this possible otherwise it would have gone Gwhore and stayed that way through the night, WAY TO CARRY 2%!

Waiting for those absentee ballots to come back in.
B. Douglas <>
cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 16:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well Hogs its the death nell that sounds for us here in NY.

May we have a moment of silence to mourn the death of hope for New Yorkers who want to keep the few rights we have to our guns? Hillary the wife of the criminal and Lame Ass OOPS! I mean lame duck president has won a resounding victory.

Anybody now of a Fire department looking for a 12 year veteran of Fire and EMS in the streets? I hate to think of what is in store for us now.

Hopefully the country at large will suffer a lesser fate.

Perhaps it is time to fall back to my ORP and find a plan B.

How much is cosmoline anyway?

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Democratic prison cell block #1 (oneonta), Ny. Where Hillary and Chuck Schumer are gonna team up to get my guns HA!!!!!!, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 16:51:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Been gone a few days ................

Slugboy: Your posts give a pilot like me (I fly a desk) a real glimpse into reality. Thank you. Keep it coming.

Pablito: 6am is ok, as long as you keep your feet away from the hose :)

Well, Amendment-22 in Colorado is a done deal, the promoters playing on the Columbine tragedy quite successfully. No one wants bad guys to have guns, but gun-show background checks would have done nothing. Be advised, this is coming to a state near you.


Duman <>
gotmyfingerscrossedforbush, CO, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 17:03:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Interesting info about Goretex. How do you tell if you are getting 2 or 3 layer? I am going to buy some real soon. Do you think they call it Goretex because Gore invented it, kinda like the internet?

In Florida, how can so many expereinced citizens not figure out that Gore wants to take their retirement from them?

At least in Texas, we will have Bush no matter what happens in Florida. He is pro gun, not perfect but substantially better than Gore.

Mars and others in communist states,
You are welcome in Texas, we have space for all, and guns to defend it!

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 17:46:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am a regular reader and rare poster to this board, I also have just purchased my first extremely accurate (at least by my standards) weapon. And this post is for budget shooters and beginners out there. I have been shooting my new Tikka Master Sporter in .308 for the last week following much of the advice listed here. This weapon is unbelievable, for the first time in my life I am shooting under .5 min of angle. The really amazing thing is that, other than breaking it in, that's straight out of the box with a $700 gun! The action is outstanding and the trigger is pretty good. For those of you out there that are doing this for fun on a less serious level than the competitors take a hard look at this rifle. The looks at the local public range have been worth all the cash. Thanks for letting me share.

JeffA <>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 18:10:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt: Bravo Brew, it's not just for breakfast anymore. I suggest though that you take a hit of something "intermediate". It clashes with toothpaste something awful. My "intermediate" was a shot of peachtree schnapps for a while, and I can recommend it.

Partner Jim: On the goretex issue, I suppose then that I have the two ply kind. It's not extremely durable as far as the stitching goes, but my wife did a wonderful number on the stitches and reinforced some points (the map pocket top and bottom are notorious). Good stuff. And really the noise issue isn't any different with it than a poncho.

If I may, let me make a suggestion. Right now, prices are the lowest on 7.62 NATO ammo that I've ever seen. Picking up a case for $150 is QED most anywhere. Likewise, the soviet 7.62 can be had for $100 per case delivered. Brass has never been more plentiful that I can remember. 308 and 223 LC brass is *CHEAP*. If it got any cheaper, I'd be feeding it to the cats instead of catfood. If you don't have some, get some, and put it back. Please. When it's needed, I'm sure you will appreciate it! Besides, I don't want to supply the country from my personal stock ;-)

CDC: point taken, but I'm not sure about your assumption. 'Lito's not half bad in that balarina costume, if he'd shave his legs, he might make it. Is this where I'm supposed to not bring up Mike in a dress? HA! *JOKE YOU GUYS*. I'm no sheep.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 18:45:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can someone recommend a good source for the three ply Gore tex outer garments mentioned in Mark's reply to me?
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 18:47:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
DAMN.......This is gettin' to be worse than waitin' for the sound of

the SMK bangin' off the steel at 1000 yds.

I'm keeping my fingers (and everything else that I got)

crossed, for a Bush victory, and to hell with all the other

"candidates" that pull votes away from him. This shit

is too important for us to lose!

Keep the Faith,


WESTERN SLOPE OF, COLORADO, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


Ain't this sumpthin? After Bush won Ky with about 10 points I figured he was on the fast road to winning big. This had been a big Clinton state for the last two elections.
I think Bush will likely win it, specially if the mail in ballots have a large military population.

Bill B <>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:37:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill talked about some-kind-of-something hitting the fan. Look for it from the following direction:

This is more serious than the impeachment.

Bravo: I love you. But you conjure some grisly images.

I'm never again going to trust results that haven't been peer reviewed.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:39:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Duman, it is already there....
You should watch now for the gun owners registration for "safety" purposes...

HK <>
LA, CA, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 19:46:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

You can find 3 ply Gore-Tex at
Gonzo <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:16:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
I've had excellent luck with 44gr Varget under the 175MK and 43.5gr Varget under the 168 AMAX. The AMAX load, set .030 off the lands gets me in the .3's. The 175Mk load in the .4's. I've found Varget to be very consistent - especially here in CT. where seasonal temp changes can cause velocity swings.
breakpoint <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:17:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
CDC;E..zactly. I don't want to start a political forum here but it's going to disrupt the constitutional procedure like we've never seen.
(He's never read it!) I would use the A. word if I were to predict the future in Washington D.C. . Not since the war have we seen what we will see now when this gets out of hand. The legals are already starting to raise an issue... I shudder to think what will happen.
The Brave one knows what is about to happen as well as I.
Mars; don't bury em... Load em.
My greatest concern is a country so out of balance it's evenly divided over an issue such as Gore and Bush. We have serious deficiency of brains I fear.

Jeff; Glad you like your Tikka, that looks like a good rifle. One
of the few I haven't tested dang it! Thanks for your report, you came to the right place.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:26:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just had a thought... lets replace the voting system with a formula for counting votes equal to 1 vote times registered IQ of the voter divided by the number of government welfare programs he is on.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:30:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kit Weights:

Normal Para insertion weights for British Paratroopers is 120lb. Hence the US practice of sitting on the Herc with Bergans attached is not used. We fit 'Equipment' (not Chutes) 40 mins prior to drop. When I did my 1st US Para cse in Bragg back in 1986 I did not appreciate the in flight rigging and having my container fitted as soon as the chute went on. We stack our kit then pass it out prior to fitting.

On Ops we tab with up to 120lb of kit which is a mare, although normal loads are around 80lb once inserted. Due to our logistics we all jump with x 2 81mm Mortar bombs and 200rds link for GPMG SF. This gets dropped off at RV's (or carried until required to drop off) in Kosovo the fire base was a nightmare to move due to the ammo scales, so time to move is a real factor!

Sierra Leone was a similar case, we entered into theatre via TALO with 120lb in Bergans plus 45lb webbing. When I got off the plane and that heat hit me I was grateful we landed un opposed.

When operating forwards as a Sniper we try to keep kit light as possible. Hence I deployed to B Coys position with a Bergan of around
50lbs. After briefing an recce I deployed forwards with a Daysack of around 25lb and webbing around 20lb (Mainly due to optics and radio)
Once in the area of operations. Daysacks were dumped radio set up and I moved forwards with webbing only (And both wpn systems/binos)
Slugboy <>
England - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

'yote bate...
I love your new voting "points" system :)) A lot of gore supporters would get about .07 vote credits, based on IQ, and Gvt programs :)

you don't know how safe Utah is!... I'm dog ugly!


Pablito <>
Gonna have a doubler dark Rum for dinner... maybe 3... in the confused, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, the search *COULD* be over. I asked for M-14 mag pouches that were up to date, and that seems to be exactly what I found after SIGNIFICANT research. If you want to see 'em, take a look at and then the ammo pouch section, part P_1461. Two are on their way, which I will immediately lash to my LBE in replacement of my tried and true old canvas jobbies. Then they get worn to the point that I either love 'em or leave 'em (in pieces). They'll be here by the end of next week, so if you're interested, contact me. Also, I'm working with Kevin to figure out if the Canadian C1 pouch can be easily modified to work with our LBE. I've summarily dismissed the Austrian pouches, but always looking for a "better way". If anyone knows of one, please let me know!

Wild Bill: I like your method! Just don't let the democraps determine the IQ questions. As for government programs, I don't take any money from the government. If I don't receive the cash (back) I don't feel like I've whored myself out to the commies, which our politicians for the most part are. You know, the part about 98% of them giving the other 2% a bad name? HA! *TRUE!!*
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:55:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dad gum it, come home and the same news, NO NEWS! Good grief, the Gorebasms have sent an army of attornies to FL to try to find anything they can to screw the Bushmaster. I hope the Repubes can find enough pennies and nickels to send their own. Maybe we need to send our own "representitives" down there to make sure both of the sides behave. I know!!!!!!!!!!

General Gooch, front and center! Your orders sir are to attach teams of freedom loving souls ON THE DOUBLE to every AO the democratic attornies are roosting. Shouldn't be too hard to spot since buzzards are probably flying overhead.

Folks, if you have any luck points to call in, the time is now!

Another freaking night of no sleep!!!!! AAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!! Damn, my dog is even getting depressed, course she just got spayed today which has kinda ruined her day OUCHIES!!!!!!!!

Bolt, sitting on pins and needles, OUT!

Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 21:59:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

PFTE garmets (goretex, sympatex, etc.)

they only work when you have a temerature difference on both sides.
Once wet and cold on the inside the membrane ist "clogged" with water, and the water vapor cant get out.

most of the three layer flecktarn suits I have used are OK within limitations, and those that my sniperpuppies complaint about were sweated wet from the inside.

dont worry about the seams, or small tears/repairs, just seal them with a tent seam sealant or shoegoo. on small tears (2-4 inches)I tape the outside with 100mph tape, pull the garmet inside out and draw a bead of shoe goo over the tear, let dry, remove the tape, and you nearly cant see it from the outside.

the sealed seams, or a few tears only make up a very small percentage of the garment´s overall surface, thus the loss in water vapor transport is minimal compared to the gained effect of having a waterproof layer again.

just my thoughts from very wet germany


now someone get up and tip that scale in favor of W

torsten <>
could not sleep last night, in, germany - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:01:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Light Discipline:
Noted questions on light discipline in Roster. We always use white light for Map checks (for the reasons stated by Kevin, Canada)However we get round the obvious problems in the following way. Instead of a ponch we use x2 Shemaghs sewn together. (Obviously smaller, quieter and can be around neck, if not too hot) The drill is to got to ground tactically and try to go behind solid cover. The Map etc.. is taken out, Shemagh over head and torch used. The torch is masked using 100 mile an hour tape so only a tiny beam is omitted. The No2 provides protection and also lets you know if any light is coming through. Obviously the prep of kit needs to be carried out to ensure the light suits your own needs and you can actually read with it!

In hides, drapes should be used over loopholes and entrances. These drapes (we use sandbags) should be double layered, to cut down light further. Hence when entering hide you push aside drape move in, ensure drape is back in place and then move through second drape. Stops drama of compromise. When using torch in Hide ensure drapes are down if possible and use shemagh as on ground.

Hide doors ideally should also be offset to viewing/firing ports, this also helps light discipline.

NOTES ON HIDES: It is a Hide! The original concept is to Hide in your hide in order to rest and administer your self. Hides take a lot of effort to build. You can remain on task longer and without compromise of your hide if one pair rests in the hide with another operating/shooting pair overlooking the hide. Shooting from outside the hide etc..
Sometimes Hides become OP's which have a re-active/offensive capability. However fields of view and the ability to move position to engage that awkard tgt can be a problem.
I know of SF Snipers who could not engage a tgt they had spent days waiting for because the Pipe they used as a loop hole had such a limited field of view. Outside is often better (Food for thought?)

Hide Comfort: Often Snipers dig subsurface hides too shallow and suffer for it! If you dig down so you can sit down and your head if four fingers from the roof you will be able to move around more comfortably and quietly.A notable difference.

Happy Hunting Slugboy

Slugboy <>
England - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:07:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Test !

quick test to see if the surplus goretex you are buying is still waterproof. take a little wet sponge, wrap it in the fabric until, well look between your legs for an example, and then squeeze !

The sponge dummies !

No water droplets come out = good Goretex !

t <>
g3land - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mars, you are welcome here in the land of concealed carry and class III.

Anybody else heard of baking goretex and dipping it in tent dry to cure its noise problems? My pastor who was Special Forces told me about this.

Been reading the board for about a year. I have learned so much about long range shooting. You guys have my utmost respect and I thank all of you who have put your lives on the line so we may all live in this wonderful country.

Chad's out
Chad <>
OKC, Oklahoma, USA - Wednesday, November 08, 2000 at 22:39:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy, please comment on your optics. Scope preference and power and bino preference and power.

Waiting on a brighter future with the Bushmaster, Bolt OUT!
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 00:02:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Stan - four nineteen!

Bill in Clearwater - It doesn't matter that Nelson won Mack's seat. McCallum is not your friend either, he is a Republocrat and a turncoat gun supporter!

Cory - You gotta remember that there are two Floridas, the normal one from Lake Ockeechobee north, and the fucked up one from Lake "O" south. You live in the normal area, I live, well, down here. What everybody forgets is that Florida 2000 is not the same as Florida 1996. This state is in such a constant state of flux that what held true four years ago just don't cut it today.

Even with Brother Jeb at the helm, nobody should have assumed that Florida was a "gimme." The population of Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties is so overloaded with bleeding heart, transplanted, northern, liberal, leftwing pukes that "we" can skew just about anything the rest of the state wants.

So why don't I leave? Because I'm a royal pain in the ass to all these pukes. There's no way I, and others like us, should just role over and hand it all to them. They want it, let them fight for it. I ain't going anywhere. And I've actually begun to turn some of them to see the light - not just the 2nd but the whole Constitutional thing. My Homeowners Association wanted me to get "approval" to stick a flagpole on my garage so that I could fly the American flag. Oh, yeah? Well, the flagpole is there and the "approval" was already bought and paid for.

All - Right now, all 67 Florida counties are going through the recount process which may not be completed until late Thursday. I really don't think the results will change that much. In Broward County, the recount came up with one additional vote for GW. As far as the military absentee votes go, they will be counted last, per the rules. If they vote mainly Republican as predicted, and cement the state for GW, I would find it absolutely ironic and fitting that Algwhore gets screwed by the same guys that got screwed by his old boss!

And as far as you guys that voted your conscience, this was NOT the time to show us all how big and shiney your cajones were. Yeah, maybe in a state like Utah where you ABSOLUTELY KNEW who was getting it, but for the rest of the country this was the time to employ strategic moves, not tactical moves.

And if, by some miraculous turn of events, Algwhore does take the election, don't get overly concerned about the Supreme Court nominations thingy. The Republicans still control the Congress, which must approve any SC nominations.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 00:45:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

hey jsutb wanna say way cool website.. good job.. I am on the DEP program {Delay Entry Program} for the United States Armmy... hhhooooaaahhh as 13F as my mos.I was wondering if u can give me some info on Sniper training just to get a feeling of the job and its dutys.. thanks for ur time.. ARMY ALL THE WAY...
jason matterson <>
Bridgeport, NY, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 00:57:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just located another e-sniper community. It can be found at
and just click on the sniper link...
Gonzo <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:06:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo and all,

Great idea, carrying .308 rounds in an M-14 magazine. What a great way to them quiet, handy, and ready for use...IN YOUR BOLT GUN!...;-)

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:11:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gore didn't invent Goretex, we stole the idea from the aliens that crashed in New Mexico, along with velcro. Ask Sarge, he'll tell ya.

Heh heh

TR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe...I try to forget that. I'm a "native" Floridian, commonly refered to as a cracker. Florida was better off when it was a giant swamp/sandbar. If I ever can travel back in time I'm going to pop Mr. Collier and the assh**e that invented Airconditioning...AC is one of the chief reasons that Florida became as populated as it is.

I'm still sweating like a gator in july. Everybody pray hard!

Slugboy....Still outstanding! Keep the great posts coming. They are some of the best ever on this site! I would be interested in your opinion of the rifle system you use and the ammo. Someone mentioned optics too. I'm looking forward to reading your post on scopes used by our Bretton cousins.

Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:45:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC, Thanks for posting the link to National Review's articles on the election, and Al Whore's plans to subvert the process.

Bravo, 'Lito, Bill R, I may dig a hole, but it ain't for burying guns, it's a hide..

Bravo, Yep gonna have to order some more 223, and 9mm for sure...get it while it is plentiful, and cheap..

To the EMT in NY, (sorry forgot your name)Hell, move out of that damn place. Most any city/county would hire someone with your skills.


Bill B <>
ky, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 01:46:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was curious about the claim that someone hit a silver dollar at 3000
yards, and being the open minded, yet detail oriented person that I am,
some calculations to see what it would take.

You would not need unlimited ammunition to hit a silver dollar at 3000
yards. Using a rifle that only shot 1 MOA, and assuming that you had
absolutely stable T & E mechanism that you could make .0001 MOA
to; and you knew the comeups for your ammunition to 3000 yards in .0001
increments; you would only need slightly more than 13.2 million rounds
ammunition to have a statistical certainty of hitting a silver dollar
3000 yards (the old style ones, not a Susan B. or gold one).

To consistently hit one, you would need a rifle and shooter that could
less than 1/2 inch groups at 1000 yards. I think the Mobile Infantry in
Starship Troopers had a rifle like that, but my local gun shop doesn't

Of course the real problem is the optics. You would need a scope that
resolve a 1/20th of an inch dot at 100 yards. Maybe one like Tom
had in the movie "Sniper". (has anybody figured out what those
lights in his scope were for?)

pete r <>
colorado springs, co, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:00:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

I second Moe. On another note, Miami-Dade has made its recount as well. Slight shift (don't remember the numbers), but no meaningful change.

County-by-county, Gore only carried the major urban areas, SE Florida being the MOST major. Broward has already posted a basic no-change, now Miami has. Barring any last minute surprises, Bush should be confirmed as carrying the State by the end of the recount. The only wrinkle is whether Gore's team finds some way of Clinton-izing the election and making everyone define the word "is" before their votes are admitted.

I don't support Gore (Obviously), but I do believe he will do the honorable thing and step aside if Florida's recount holds for Bush. I don't think he'll make a big stink.
André <>
Pompano Beach, Fl, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:00:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Have had those gun show background checks here in CA since I became a first-time gun owner in 1994. As gun laws go, it's not the worst, but worse things are heading your way. Whatever organization you put together to fight this thing in Colorado, hang on to it. You are going to need it again in the near future, and you'll have a head start in the battle if you don't dismantle it after the election. I guarantee you the opposition is keeping their organizations in place.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:01:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
Guys, I am away at a (Boring) Middle Management class, so not making slings or getting to all my email this week, one in Dec and one in Jan. Being a Sergeant is fine with me. I hate this LT crap.

SlugBoy, with 120 lbs of kit we all would be "Worm Back" quickly! Thats a load. My LE Guys complain about 40lbs, but over the years we all end up with bad backs.

Bravo, I would never be caught in a dress unless I was visting the inside while a woman wore it.

Election made me sick, yes I voted and told the liberal idiot who was running the booth to F Off and that making a suggestion of how I voted was a crime. The B ran for it quick.

Wes, you get the slings yet?

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

anybody done any testing/comparison between the .284(168-175gr)and the .308(168-175)?
roman <>
hooahoklahoma, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:50:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Howdy Dude! Where you been.

I just got away from the tube, listening to a gore lawyer talking about "They're going to see what the laws are, because Gore got the popular vote, and it's only right!"...

Do the honorable thing? It depends on what the definition of "honorable"... "IS"!

I think that it's even money, that gore won't accept it, if Bush wins, and his lawyers will beat the crap out of the Florida courts with objections to everything, including the color of the ballots.

I checked out the site you mentioned... the big question was "Why don't snipers post on their board?"... and I told him "It's 'cuz they're all over on Snipercountry" ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 02:51:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Didn't see a post about this, so thought you CA subjects might be interested. At the Long Range Tactical match (contested the first Sunday of each month near Sacramento) on Nov. 5, 2000, a shooter scored 36/36 hits (only second time this has been done in 10 year history of the match) for a 334 (out of 360 possible). Broke his own high-score record, set just last month, of 35/36 for a 319.

Match is 3 shots at each of 12 firing points, from 200y - 1,000y. No sighters, and headshots only at the second 600y stage. Winner used a custom-built .280 AI with a Nightforce scope.

(My claim to fame is that he and I car-pooled to the match.)

Bringing to mind the old saying: When I die, I hope to go peacefully, in my sleep, like my grandfather... instead of screaming, like the passengers in his car.
wills <>
radioactive, CA, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:10:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey 'lito.

Been 'round, but been pretty busy the last few months. Just reloc'd down here from MN (I actually grew up down here, so it's a return). Getting myself settled has been a major source of busy-ness. I'll have to go shoot w/ Moe when I get my ass in gear again.

Anyway, the wife just informed me that the current recount is showing Gore w/ a gain of some 600 votes (remember, he was shy about 1700). I don't know if this is from any place in particular, or why it would change so dramatically from the very minimal gains he made earlier. Gee I wonder if someone "found" some more votes. snicker, snicker.

Anyway, it ain't over yet, that's for sure.

André <>
Pompano Beach, Fl, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I believe Barringer's reticle belonged in that Camera lens they tried to pass off as a Scope.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:21:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slings Arrive!

Two of Undude's rifle slings showed up today. If you haven't seen or used these give them a look see. Workmanship is superb and the idea/design is something SOMEONE should have come up with years ago...

Check these out at Tactical Interventions web site.

One is going on my M40A1 clone and the other on my Chandler Sniper. Will report more after Elk Season, this weekend.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Duty Roster Denizens,
I was also at the Sacto shoot last month, and the guy that won it last month sure shot well. I was mightily impressed! I don't doubt that he did what Wills said for a minute!
It isn't really a very "tactical" match though. It is more of a "walking bench rest match." Before I get blasted out of the water here. I just wanted to clarify that it is a great shoot, and that there are a lot of very skilled shooters that shoot there. (a great deal better than me as well!) There are range flags, and almost all of the shooting is done at known distances with loads of time to develop a firing solution.
All that being said, the guy that won last month and this month would probably still do great no matter how a shoot was run. He is a serious skilled shooter.

I don't have a different solution, and the Sacto facility is top notch. I also feel very fortunate that such a place still exists. Despite the match not being very "tactical" I still feel that it is great way to test your shooting skills against other very talented shooters at long distances.

So, I just hope that Bush wins so we can continue to exercise out 2nd amendment rights in this otherwise very restricted state!

Michael <>
Praying to God that Gore loses!, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mars: Ever hear the expression, "Things could be worse"? Well consider this. NY may have elected a Sociocrat, but at least they elected a live one. Here in Missouri they've elected a dead one!
Gooch: You're probably tired of people asking, but how's the organization of IOR coming along? Any chance of getting it off the ground before January?
All: This election has been one for the books. I worked a lot at Republican HQ here these past couple of months, and we won a couple of races. Oh, well. Maybe next time.
PaulS <>
columbia, MO, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 03:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just got out of the People's Republic of Kalifornia. Colorado is a breath of fresh air. Gun stores everywhere with AR-15's on the racks. And about 1/3 the price of PRK when you could still buy them there. I had to get out of the PRK because a couple of my guns would be illegal there january first. Now I'll have to change the color scheme on my g-suit and get a set of overwhites.
pete r <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 04:06:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Slugboy: Please excuse us. The missions you describe are interesting and enlightening, but some of us are momentarily distracted by our constitutional crisis de jour.

The son of the guy who stole the '60 election for Kennedy is sending 75 lawyers into Florida. That would be Bill Daley son of Richard Daley. They are looking for suspicious stories. With six million voters they can find eye-witness acounts of anything from aliens to the abomidable snow-man. The democrats are looking to turn the election into a big O.J. trial and install the most tedious and condescending jack-ass in the country as president.

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:19:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

This was handed to me by a fellow patriot. It sums up everything about this election quite concisely, and with a great deal of clarity. I recommend and submit it for your perusal, just a minute or so.

UnDude: right on, but you gotta admit, it makes for a humorous visual HA! You sure you never did undercover trying to entice Johns on prostitution stings? DOUBLE HA! I'd ask if you had a sister, but she could probably beat me up too ;-)

Bill: Now if I could only figure out an easier way to get that virgin LC brass into a user friendly form with less work. I'm with you though, I remember the primer shortages in 92? 93? It won't effect me again when primers are now $75 per case. But it's cheap and worth the effort.

Sir Wes: I thought it might be handy info, since some folks here take to butchering perfectly good US GI M-14 mags in order to fit them in bolt guns and overgrown ARs. Besides, they work well for FAL and G3 mags. In other words, if you've got a REAL gas gun, it seems a good pouch! On Mike's slings, I also rave about them. They don't do anything you can't do with the old leather military loop, except for getting into position in a flash, not having any adjustments to make, and being far more durable. In other words, besides being completely superior, there's no difference at all ;-) You'll love 'em. I even got an extra cuff or two to keep on my gear.
Brew deficient Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, slipping for another 4 years, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:25:54 (ZULU) (your host address:


Someone said They definitely have the military style 3 layer, and are the only place I know of to get it outside the military. It may be possible to get it on base at the PX. Most units, including mine, are still issuing the 2 layer parka. I think the pants have always been 3 layer. I would also check Cabela's. I am not sure what camo pattern you want, Jim. If you think you can get by with earth tone civilian styles and want to save a lot of money, go to or The deals are phenomenal, and siera sometimes has hunting styles.

2 and 3 layer refers to the way the water proof layer is made. 2 layer has a nylon outer laminated to the goretex. It also has a free hanging liner, which protects the goretex from abrasion from the inside. Some liners are mesh, most are cloth. If you go 2 layer, try to get a "hydrophobic," water hating, material. It will not wick water into the jacket.

3 layer has the same nylon outer layer bonded to goretex, with a liner fabric also bonded to the goretex. The three layers make one sandwich, and in the end appear to be one stiff layer.

There is also a new, last year or so, version called paclite. It is indeed lightweight, but appears to be so at a cost of durability. As far as I know, it is civilian style only, and I would guess that probably everyone reading this post should stay away from it since it would not hold up very well under the use we would give it.

One very important thing about gore tex is that the outer layer of nylon, when new, is treated with what is called durable water repellant, or DWR. DWR will be washed and worn off over time. If that happens, the nylon will get water logged and will not breathe, as someone, (Torsten maybe?) mentioned. DWR can be restored with a product called TX direct by Nikwax. A lot of camping stores have it. It costs maybe $8 a bottle, which will do top and bottom. I thought it was expensive until it was pointed out to me that it was cheaper than buying new gear. There are other spray and wash in products available to replenish DWR, but I am stuck as to their names. They will say they are suitable for water proof/ breathable garments. If it doesn't say that, it may clog the pores, and you turned that goretex into a very expensive rubber raincoat. Use the gentlest soap/ etc possible when washing goretex. NEVER use liquid detergent. Some people are even saying stay away from powdered detergents. I use a product by Nikwax to wash mine now, but I suspect Woolite or Ivory soap flakes would also work.

Bottom line, if you are having problems with older goretex, replenish the DWR. Good DWR sheds water like a freshly waxed car. It just beads up and runs off.

Semper Fi, less than 24 hours left here on the east coast!
Mark <>
Ohio, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:32:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy - Great finally some backup - it would seem the former colonialists (LOL) don't like to carry their kit. Maybe they have been spoiled by the generous climate...

WWWWWhat is with your election??????? Go to bed last night safety knowing Bush has prevailed and now...

Someone please explain this 30,000 Overseas vote thing - You got 30,000 troops originally from florida and they are all overseas?
I am a little confused - our guys who live in the shack vote in their enlisting home riding, the guys who live off base vote in the local riding.

Kevin <>
Canada - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 05:42:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question for the Palma/Highpower shooters.... The "sight radius" <-- hope thats the proper term to use here. The distance between front and rear sights if I remember right was 33-36 inches ? I'm sure thats a guess, anyone know for sure. (For Paramount or Warner rear sight)

Wills in Radioactive, Ca. is that Livermore ? You a Labbie ?

Tim in Ca.
T.Meyers The PeaShooter <>
Tracy, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 06:42:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

hi... does anyone have much on shoulder carry rifles with hyper kinetic energy rounds capable of tank armor penetration. i've previously seen mention in various journals, magazines, and now shown on tv with rounds capable of velocities in the 30,000 to 50,000 fps. range and penetrating 40 in of armor such as the m-1 tank. any other info???

cheers, don
don <>
goleta, calif, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 07:36:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes: Strangely silent about the herd in Pedee. Hmmm. No matter. Unfortunately, I've had other last minute plans thrust upon me and won't be going along. I wish you the best of luck.

Jim: Here's my two cents on goretex. Do as suggested and use Woolite. It has worked well for me. Use the delicate cycle and remove the top after the rinse but before the spin. I've seen andliner seams blow out because of the water's hydraulic action against them. After all, that water certainly isn't going to pass through the membrane, either way. Wash twice if really muddy. I treat with Scotchguard (it's cheaper than the sports washes), especially after the exterior finish becomes fuzzy with wear. It doesn't seem to glow under IR anymore than the damn synthetic material does to begin with. If you are buying this stuff out of pocket, treat it well.

Slugboy: Really enjoy your posts. Gives great insight into deployment concerns. Keep it up. I have to say, though, the vernacular is killing me. Attended Bisley in '93 with the NG(TA) and thought I had a pretty good handle on it. Hell, I even ate deep-fried toast and beans for breakfast. But what in God's green earth is a Shemagh? I'm sure that I have to have one, I just don't know what it is! It brings to mind some lacy, boa-type thing that smells of cheap perfume and cigarettes. Help me out.

Everyone: I didn't realize that I was commending the dreaded chicken shooter with my last post on the Sniper FTX Summary. Duck and cover. Seriously, I thought about the whole chicken thing and come to a conclusion. Here you have highly animated, melon-sized targets that the shooter has to index quickly. More importantly, you don't have 4-5 shooters working the pits with popsicle stick targets. They can be shooting or observing on the line where they should be. I'm just thinking that Range Control at my local active-duty post couldn't quite live with the mess, though. Thumbs up again, Jeff. Duck and cover.
SSG Maries/ 2-162 INF/ ORARNG <>
OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 08:00:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Interesting website you've got here. I'll be back.

I don't know how many of you guys are into semi-autos like the AR10s, but they fascinate me. Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

My new Hesse HAC 25 came in. I've compared it to the other .308s in my collection. It's bad.

1. Blue barrel, scuffed at the muzzle.
2. Front sight mount is aluminum. It won't hold up to shooting.
3. Handguard is SHORT. It's stupid looking. It has a bad scratch 2/3 around it that looks like it was was touched up with a magic marker.
4. The upper receiver seems to be an extrusion with some machining done on it. It's not as nice looking as Knight's extrusion or as strong as ArmaLite's forging. It's real loose in the
lower receiver.
5. The charging handle isn't made from a forging. It's soft aluminum.
6. The bolt carrier is blued. It's not chromed inside.
7. Receiver finish is really bad. The pivot and takedown pins are loose.
8. The lower receiver is cheaply machined from an aluminum plate. It looks really bad. The magazine well isn't broached. It's machined from the top and has lots of machine marks.
9. The rifle uses a modified FAL magazine. An original FAL magazine won't work. The modified FAL magazine won't work in a FAL because the front tab is smashed in and the notch at the rear is machined off. If BATF gave ArmaLite trouble over their converted magazines, this is worse. Hesse hasn't answered earlier questions about whether their magazine is approved by BATF. This is a bad problem.
10. GI trigger.
11. The firing pin is poorly machined and not ground.
12. The firing pin spring is weaker than ArmaLite's, and doesn't stay on the firing pin when
you clean the rifle.
13. The firing pin retainer is from a standard AR-15. It's short for a .308. It is badly bent.
14. The gas tube is bent and the carrier key has two gouges in the mouth where it hit the gas tube. It all fits together but I don't trust it.
15. The extracter is badly machined. It doesn't have a rubber plug in the spring.

There's more but you get the drift. I'm going to take pictures then shoot it.

The rifle came to me dirty and scratched. It's really bad. I'm going to get rid of it no matter what. My ArmaLite was worth the extra money.
Matt Murphy <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 08:08:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

You guys have a very interesting electoral system that side of the pond. It seems you can elect dead people. Now if you'd only said that sooner we could have told you to re- elect George Washington and all your gun grabbing problems would be over. ;)

To those who responded, thanks for the info on 80 gr .223's and Varget.

Good luck with the recount(s)!

Mark Dougan <>
UK - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 09:29:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks everyone

Riflesix Out.
Jared <>
Utah, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 10:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for a top notch law enforcement sniper program. Our department's tac team is operational except for having a sniper. A political hot bed is what I have been told, but it is something we are wanting to pursue in the near future. Preferably somewhere in Texas but might be able to consider somewhere else that is close by.

Also, when the subject is brought up, what are some solid reasons that a team would need one. Our reasons will have to be backed up by solid information from those who have first hand training and experience and if it's from a fellow police officer, more the better.

Your all assistance is appreciated. Please respond to my private email. Thank you.

Patrick Sloan
Patrick Sloan <>
Brenham, Tx, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 11:47:4YourULU) (your host address:

Got up this morning...
... and guess what, the democraps are at it full speed. It's on it's way to being a racial/civil rights thingie. The "Afrro-American" community in Palm Beach county,t ite now been "Disenfrachised", and Wexler is calling for a new election so the blacks can vote again... seems they couldn't get it right the first time. The Dems keep saying they're for intagration, but they pull out the race issue every time they think it'll work for them!!
Gore is turning out to be the biggest baby of them all.

On that 50,000 fps thing, it's shaky science. The velocity of a gas driven projectile is limited be the speed of sound in the propelling medium.
Some time back, there were experements by Hutton, and he used the Weatherby case, and a light (19 grain) .22 bullet, and got around 6200 fps. It reaches a point where the powder you are adding, is needed to drive the powder you are adding, and the propellent weight, itself, becomes the projectile.

The Navy needed very high speed projectile bullets, to study the impact of outer space "junk" on steel armor, and developed a two stage "gun".
The first stage was driven by hugh loads of conventional powder. When that was fired, it drove a large piston into a second stage of compressed Helium (Helium has the highest speed of sound, and is the fastest moving gas)... the Helium reached incandescent tempretures (and monsterious pressures), and a steel pellet that was literaly "welded" into the throat of the barrel, finely gave way at around 200,000 psi, and went down a 30 foot barrel. The barrel, and the space between the gun, and the target, had been sucked to near absolute vaccume, so there would be no "forward load" on the bullet... the whole thing weighed about 20 tons... the maxium velocity was 25,000 fps, and the bullet weight was around 100 grains.
That was the fastest they could do, no matter how much powder they used in the first stage... it wouldn't go faster.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 11:59:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looks like Janet Reno is on the case. No further comment is necessary.

We shouldn't move FROM states that are 'in play' like Florida. We should move TO them.

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 13:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito; this is typical ain't it? Everything is racial including the election. We have to put the blame where it lies, not on the black people but on the left wingers who keep on stirring and twisting it. But it's gonna happen either way. We all know the problem, but this could get serious. This talk about voting again should be unacceptable to anyone in this country. What if you voted for someone who has no chance of getting elected. You then have the power to shift for Mr. Gore. We can't allow this in the country of the whole system is down. Sorry about the Pollitics but this is funadmental basic America.

And by the way you guys over "there", We love dead people over here... they always make the best politicans. They can't hurt anything and they don't raise taxes. You don't kead what you're missing.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 13:17:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

B Rogers: What a thought on the election vote process. Only problem is that if I mentioned something like that around the office here in NJ I would probably have to attend a month long Diversity class.

I was thinking this is more of a conspiracy by Slick Willie to void the election so he remains in office !!! What a thought !!!
TonyY <>
Woodbridge , NJ, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 13:35:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just turned on the TV... (came close to shooting the sucka').

The Goddamned Democraps in Fla are demanding a new election... but only in the areas that the liberal voter % is high.
What about the Pan-Handle republicans that didn't vote, cuz they're in a different time zone, and were told (by the "ALL KNOWING" media) that Bush had won, and the election was "Over"... are the Dems demanding that they get a new chance to vote... NOOOoooo.

The media ought to StFU (Shut the F**K up), and wait ten days, till ALL the votes are in... they just keep sturring the fires of disention.

Shit, lets throw the whole damn thing out, and start from scratch... free transportation for voters in states that have bad weather... free translators for the illegals that were regestered "by mail" and never had to show any I.D. Ballots that give the voter F-I-V-E chances to get it right (right, meaning an inspection by an offical appointed by Reno).

Wake me up when sane people are in charge.. no, no... I may sleep forever :((

Just loaded the "Jungle Truck", with 3 riffles, and a 10mm Colt Delta...
I'm going shooting!


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 14:03:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mark is 100% correct on treating the Gortex with TX. A few years ago I bought some surplus Gortex and washed it up and went out to try it out under a garden hose and promply got my ass soaked!!! I was really disappointed because the damn thing soaked water up like cotton!! I called around to a couple of hightec outdoor places and explained my problem and wondered if Gortex went "Bad" and one guy I talked to gave me the phone number for the Gortex company. So I called them and they first ask if it was clean and I said yes I had washed it and then they asked how I washed it and esp. how I had dried it. I told them and said that I had "Hung" it on a hanger to dry because I wasn't sure about putting it in a dryer. They informed me that the Gortex was fine and to rewash it in mild soap and water then add some TX to rewaterproof the outside fabric and then put it in a dryer on low heat until it was dry. By hanging it the first time, I caused the Gortex to "Streach" causing it to then leak like a sive. After adding the TX and drying it, it worked great!! Just like new. I did learn from the tech at Gortex that as it gets dirty it looses its ability to keep you dry. I cant' say enough good about the TX products they really do work. Water will litterly roll off of your garments and now I see they have products to wash the Gortex in also. You can get all the TX products at Cabellas or any good out door store. Hope this helps save someone else some troubles and keeps you dry!!!

Pat <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 14:45:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

All: Rifle Raffle @ Storm Mountain....

Just got word from Rod Ryan that the rifle raffle ticket was pulled...

"the raffle ticket was pulled and the winner is Wayne Webber, a Police Officer in NJ. "

Thanks ladies and gents...

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 15:05:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

How to go really, really fast -

The navy has another project underway to get a projectile moving fast. What it is is tube and a projectile that fits into the tube with the te front a cone and a definite disconitnuity about midway back. The secret is that the tube has a variety of different gas mixtures seperated by membranes.

The idea is that the projectile is initially fired by a conventional charge. In the first chamber, the gas mixture flowing between the projectile discontinuity (o step to save my fingers) and the tube wall is igniting, pushing on the back of the projectile and accelerating it. The burning rate of the gas mixture is carefuly chosen so it doesn't fall behind and put out the flame front and doesn't get ahead and slow down the projectile. Each chamber is carefully set up in length and gas mixture to propel the object. To speed is in the 20,000 fps range. For some reason, most trials end up in fizzle nothing going anywhere.

To accelerate an object on Earth to 50,000 fps would require a quantum singularity, or enough power to run Chicago for a week. Anything going that fast in atmosphere will immediately Halt, Melt, and Catch Fire (the dreaded HMCF computer error) from friction and the firing force.

The best way of doing what you are thinking about would be to use a laser. Speed of the particles is about 9*10^8 fps. Of course, the only thing you will do with man portable one nowadays is give someone a sunburn and blind 'em.

Now for a serious question:

Single stage or two stage triggers? Both have good/bad points. What do those of you who actually do this sort of thing prefer?
Karl <>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 15:59:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy: PLEASE keep it coming. It's a nice distraction to this election mess. Are your rifles, specifially the 338-AI, off-the-shelf or are there modifications? Also look forward to your comments on scopes.

Pablito: Shooting with a hangover is tough, but it sure beats not shooting at all. :-)


Duman <>
onlyinamericacanthisstuffhappen, Colorado, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 16:28:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

The media(fourth arm of gov)keep harping on the popular vote,New York and Kalifornia cast 2.7mm more votes for Gore...Bush clearly has more BROAD BASED appeal..Keep the Electoral College, the GOP isn't dead yet!!!!
Russ Egan <>
Williamsburg , Va., USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 16:41:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
CDC....IF everyone is coming to Florida spread the word that there are TWO entrance requirements. ONE: you must vote conservatve/Republican/Libertarian etc. TWO; You must be a gun owner/NRA member/GOA member.

In fact conservative/patriotic/gun owners consolidating themselves in one place maybe a great idea! It may be our best means of survival long term. Um, oh yeah, we already went over this. Sorry.

I had to turn the TV off, it is making me want to hurl something.

Lets hear from Slugboy. I want to ask the inevitable question, but it seems it may be bad form to ask if you had to pull the trigger while in SL?

My question is probably out of line, but my curiosity is getting the better of me.

Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 16:42:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ahh! Write this down... Bob Dole, Russell Kansas. Don't try to figure it out. Don't ask, If it becomes significant I'll get back to it.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:05:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

As far as justifying a sniper section for you TAC Team to your superiors, sum it up with two words....CHARLES WHITMAN.

As you know, CW gunned down people from the campus in TX for some time before police could get him down. Had they had a sniper team, it couldn've been resolved quickly and efficiently. This incident was one of the reasons many depts began to establish sniper teams.

Further, a WELL TRAINED sniper team brings a much better degree of safety and control to tactical situations. The real time intelligence and precision fire they bring to a situation, such as a barricaded supspect have a tremendously beneficial impact upon public/officer safety.

Sniper teams can actually reduce the violence needed to resolve a situation in many occassions. For example, would you rather send in a team of guys with MP5s when the job could be done with a single precision rifle shot? And if you are on the entry team, would you like to have real time intel on the objective and someone covering your avenue of approach to the entry point with precision fire?

One word of caution though, if your dept can't budget the resources to do the job right, then don't do it at all. A half assed sniper team is far, far worse than not having one at all.

Practice doesn't make Perfect;
Perfect Practice makes Perfect.

Good Luck.



Check you email. I sent you some training stuff I can't post here and let me know if you got it. Thanks for the kind words and all, but I'm just a balding guy with a beer guy now.

Glad to see you here though, its a joy to see some tactical subject matter on the board rather than just bullethead stuff (which is too complicated for me anyways!)

I am working on an article for Infantry Magazine with a few folks. Hope you will join us.

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:40:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

We'll have a shooting contest. 500 meters, E type one round.
Al Gore can appoint his best trigger man and GW can appoint his shooter. We start at 1500 meters and the shooters stalk 500 each.
First shooter to locate and eliminate the other wins and his party takes the White House. Only problem is finding a shooter that would pull a trigger for the Democrats. No shortage of volonteers on our side I'm sure. Hey, what the hell. They're trying everything else.
Don <>
Rockie Mts., Colorado, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:41:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sorry bout that. Ment to take the E type out of the post. It kinda made itself up as I went.
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.comdd>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:43:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
RE: All: Rifle Raffle @ Storm Mountain....

I want a repoll!!! errr pull!!!

Congradulations Wayne, treat it right.
Medulla762 <>
packingtogo, hunting, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:48:03 (ZULU) (your host address:


If you guys want to move to Florida, come on down! The more the merrier! :-))

1 - You must bring your guns with you, LOTS AND LOTS OF GUNS!

2 - You must move in between two liberal, commie, socialist pukes!

3 - You must supply your own ear plugs to drown out the wailling of your new neighbors! :-))

Moe Mensale <>
WhoDidIVoteFor?, FL, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 17:54:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. Florida Shoot

Is there going to be a winter shoot in Florida?? Anybody??

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:43:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff: on the TU (Texas University) "sniper". A year or so later, my father and I had an occasion to be on the campus, looking over those shots. A sniper wasn't needed, if I had been there with a quality hunting rifle, I could have at least kept his head down. I'm not trying to say anything you wrote was incorrect, but the lack of marksmanship at the scene (and hardware) was the problem. I recall my father saying "heck, I could hit a guy in that spot from here with a 22!".

Karl: of course I prefer the two stage trigger! HA! For precision shooting I like the lightweight single stages, but anyone who says it can't be done with a 4 pound NRA legal two stage just hasn't tried it.

'Lito: right on the big gun. At Johnson when I was working there, they had a similar set up, used a 1" solid steel projectile. It was "primed" with a pound of, if memory serves, 800X. Detonation was a shotgun primer, and that impinged on a cylinder of hydrogen. The Hydrogen was the real propellant. The high speed photo guys (one of 'em is a buddy of mine) LOVED that gun, the barrel was measured in yards. Now for the funny part. They got their supplies at the same local store that I did. They, however were forced to send TWO cars to retrieve the pound of powder and the primers. And if anyone is around 'Cruces, ask Carl at Custom Cartridge Company for the details. It's HILARIOUS!

You guys catch the crap from the Time "reporter"? She called our overseas servicemen "TAX EVADERS"!!! Seeems that she took exception to the fact that they claim Florida as their "home state" while over seas so that they don't have to pay the higher taxes of other states. So if you're a "tax evader" that is in some Godforsaken hellhole doing what you've been commanded unconstitutionally to do, and you've been ripped out of your right to vote, as many of our servicemen have, well, I hope you remember this when it all comes about.
Bravo762 - Patriots USA <>
LET IT START HERE!, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:44:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm not saying that everyone should move to one place. That would be the quickest road to extinction. I'm saying that, if you're going to move, don't move from a place where your vote can't change the outcome to a place where it can't.

The communists own Mass and NY. Get used to it. At the presidential level the good-guys own Utah and Idaho. New Mexico could go either way. So, if someone wants to make a difference, don't move to Idaho. Move to New Mexico, Colorado, Florida, etc.

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:48:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. Ultra High Velocity

go to

It's neat.
I read that at similar device registered >125db @ 300 meters away.
Use plugs and muffs;-)
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 18:59:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

I screwed up. If anyone cares, that last mess should have said, "I'm saying that, if you're going to move, don't move from a place where your vote CAN change the outcome to a place where it can't."

(Emphasis added)

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 19:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

pete r from PRK,

Welcome to Colorado! There is a gun store within driving distance from you, called Tactical Solutions Group. They have some nice stuff., I think.


Duman <>
Need more beer, to get through this election, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 19:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

To the dissatiafied::: Iknow Gooch didn,t think much of it, but having relocatd to WV over 30 years ago I can tell you it,s a great place for freedom loving gun people...There aren,t many "shooters" here but most have guns and don't think you're some sort of wacko if you shoot..If you're "culturally inclined" this is not the place for you, unless you appreciate rural culture with all it's pros and cons. The state is ccw friendly and ,at least here in ZONE 7, class III friendly. The state is Democratic but the gun issue helped even those folks tovote and carry the state for Bush. BRAVO..I didn't prime either my stocks or metal..Just degreased the metal and sprayed! Markwell@zone 7 out
markwell <>
seneca@zone 7wv, wv, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 19:17:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am having a problem and hope someone can help. I am looking to pick up a Sako TRG-22. In Finland, I could pick up one of these for $1500.00. Here in the states, the going price is $2690.00.

Is there a way to have one of these imported from Finland? Even if it was close to $500.00 to do this I would still be interested. Anybody know the process for importing firearms from overseas?

Thanks all

jTR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 20:08:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

WESTERVILLE, OHIO, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 20:29:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
Found a nice little sniper board that is just starting up. Could use a few really good posts on subject of precision shooting:
Artimus <>
WA, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 20:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


Yes, NM could go either way.

Latest figures (Albuquerque Journal) show Gore 258,842 and Bush 255,184, absentee ballots and "early votes" not all counted yet.

Bernalillo County (Albuquerque) had Gore 90,672, Bush 81,429.

Santa Fe County had Gore 21,474, Bush 8,212. No surprise here, this is the "Adobe Disneyland," beloved by the channelers and New Age nuts.

A lot of ranching and farming counties liked Bush by 2 to one, up to 3 to 1 in some cases.

Interestingly, Bernalillo County is in the midst of "retabulating" their results. They insist that it is not a recount, though! Seems some of the voting machines may not have properly assigned votes to the selected candidate if a voter chose the straight party button. Supposedly a result of a "software glitch."

If you like Florida's election procedures, you'll absolutely fall in love with voting in New Mexico.

I say let Rod run another competition at Storm Mountain with only Bush and Gore competing. Winner takes office and a free Mildot Master.

(That's a joke, by the way. We can still make jokes in America. Look at our elections this year.)
Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 20:59:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Return Comments:
1. A shemagh is an Arab headress, (you know tea towel type scarf they wrap around their heads)

2. Did I pull the trigger in LS, well yes! but we all gotta check zero! Think how many multi kill British Snipers have you heard off? It's just not cricket old boy. We do what we do and I know what I've done!

3. Optics etc..

.338 AI Super Magnum, issued as is with x3 -x12x50 Schmidt & Bender
telescopic sight with Mil dot reticle and range stadia.1xMilrad
Issued with the following:
*Cullman tripod (Breaks down well into various configurations. The
small ground spike being an excellent option)
*Emergency Iron sights (Problems with the spring loaded leaf sight
breaking, although AI are addressing this)
*Laser Range Finders (Leica Vector) x 7 fantastic optics, even
without laser capability, if a little bulky
*Simrad KN203 night sight (giant leap forward for our snipers,
however very susceptable to humidity. The on/off button breaks off
easily allowing humidity to enter internal components easily. 4
sights became useless during SL's 21 day Op and we did not have
Logistic sp to repair them)
*Leupold x12-x40 Spotting scope (Give title L1A1, like all over kit
they issue)Small, durable and very effective scope. (We were sold on
x60 Spotting scopes as our next spotting scopes until we tested this
little baby, capable of ID vehicle Reg No's at 2km handheld.)
*Drag Bag
*Killflash optic filters/raysheilds
*Rifle sling
*Cleaning kit & equipment (Breakfree, Jag, pullthrough, lens tissue,
lens cloth, Allen keys, screwdriver, flanellette, Chamber guide &
rod, chamber cleaning stick, Lens brush, Brush cleaning bore, oil
*x3 10rd Mags
*Spare butt spacers
*Muzzle cover

L96, still comes with x6x40 Schmidt & Bender telescopic sight with
German post and 1MOA adjustments.
*Normal issue L1A1 'self focus' Binos are used x7 mag with basic
Graticle pattern 5mil/10mil lines (tiring on eyes due to fixed
focus, but clear optics, although nowhere near Leica quality)
*M49 Spotting scope x20 mag as issued to US forces (Disadvantage of
being unable to be stripped and cleaned when misted inside)
*Baroner Spotting scope x22 Mag, draw type scope, easy to carry in
jkt pocket, good field of view, again unstrippable)
*Scout Regiment Scope, x20 Mag draw type scope, WW1 origin, long
nauticle type scope. Robust can be field stripped & cleaned, last a
life time. Slow to focus until practiced in the art (Scope used by
original Ghillies)
*Snipers use a trip flare picket covered in hessian to support these
Scopes.(Less bulk than M49 tripod)
*CWS (Common wpn sight) x4 NVD designed for SA80 with L96 bracket
Non of the above is suitable in the Modern climate, but we have to make do.

L96 upgrade, this is an ongoing programme of equipment supplied by AI and includes;
*x3-x12x50 Schmidt & Bender telescopic sight with Mil dot reticle, Range stadia and parallax adaptor.
*Leupold x12 -x40 Spotting scope
Slugboy <>
England - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 21:29:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Comments continued....
1. Many Snipers carry their own optics, mostly mini binos for stalks
I use a set of 7x50 Bresser binos which are sound optics & I got
them fairly cheap.

2. Snipers rarely buy their own telescopic sight in the Army.
Gun laws in UK detract from the air time of good products.

3. Many units do not have sniper sections. 1 & 2 Para do and SAA/SBS
have sniper operatives. Most units train snipers and penny packet
them a problem which needs addressing.

4..338 rifle is only issued to RM Cdo bde, and 16 AA Bdes all over
Army formations only have L96. SF have whatever they wish!

Tried to answer most questions I've seen hope this helps?
Slugboy <>
England - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 21:39:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

I don't like to post email forwards on here, but this is too good to pass up.

Subject: How to Properly Vote using Your Florida Ballot

This isn't about who voted for whom, it's about a bunch of whiney people that can't follow a large arrow to a hole! Here's a website that shows a picture of the ballot.

* if you're voting for GORE and have an IQ below 40, please use the large red crayon.

* if you've already punched your ballot for NADER, but meant to vote for GORE, and did so because you can't follow the large arrow pointing to the punch-hole you're suppose to punch, then please spill the indelible ink all over your hands, so that next election we'll be able to identify that you're a moron and we will hold your hand while voting.

* if you've already punched your ballot for BOTH GORE AND BUCHANAN, and think that the computer will know that you meant to vote for GORE, and turned in the ballot, anyway, then please fill out the following application for transferring your residency to Chicago, because William Daley can use your multi-voting capabilities in Illinois in future elections.

* if you're voting for BUSH, please use the disappearing ink.

* if you're in the military and/or voted absentee, don't worry, we'll count your votes in a week or two (sure we will!). We're not worried about those ballots, right now. they are not IMPORTANT. The only votes that are worth re-considering are those that came from Boca Rotan, Palm Beach and south Dade county where voters couldn't fill out a free giveaway application at WalMart, unless the $4.65/hr clerk showed them how.
The Shooter <>
I should have gone to Florida to vote but, God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 21:57:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy: have a couple of pints of 80 shilling for me. It's hereby the weekend, and the beer light is on. It's my favorite beer in the world, and illegal where I now live. Thus, I had to start brewing my own. If you ever get across the pond, you'll have to try some of mine.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
LET IT BEGIN HERE!, USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 22:05:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 22:34:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
SNIFF, SNIFF, PASS THE HANKIES:-( Congratulations Wayne Webber from New Jersey. I had already named her Berth, please treat her well.

Hey, wait a minute! Can you even own a rifle in NJ?
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 22:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy...hopefully all of your "zeros" were through some tangos. Good post.

I just opened the christmas meade to test it. Whew what a buzz.

The ballot was so easy, a blind man could have done it. Dumb asses abound.

Cory <>
In the land of socialist whiners, Fl., USA - Thursday, November 09, 2000 at 22:53:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Link to the legality of these morons challenging the ballot.

I, for one, don't doubt that the democrats dominate the dumb-ass vote.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 01:48:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

AR-50 riffles???

Anyone of youz bums have any knowledge of the "AR-50" riffle.

I saw one briefly at my dealers today... he had ordered for some other guy.
Looked beautiful... all 42+ pounds of it... my heart's still going pitty-pat!!

I definitly could live with one of those puppies in my house:))

Youz guys got any personal feedback?... OK, I'll take rumors!

Dean M. (Trigger 50)... You out there lurking. Lemme know what you think of them.


I made a copy of the Florida ballot off the internet, and gave it to my son (who is 8!)... and did a "If you had to pick "gore", which dot would you color?"... by my wrist watch, it took him four seconds to get it right!

I had a friend that said "All food should come in cans... that way, people that are too stupid to use a can opener, won't live long enough to breed!"

He called it "Social Darwinism!"

Why should adults that have the mental skills of a 4 year old, even be in the election process at all...
(OK Bravo... I know it's constitutional).
... but then if they are too stupid to punch a hole in a ballot, what bit of political knowledge to they posess that makes them fit to help decide how the country should be run???
None... So make the ballots like a kiddie maze on the place mats at "Dutchess" or "Big Boy"... and if the voter can figure it out, they are smart enough to vote.

Got ma' 10mm smokin' and I'm ready to go back to Robs bunch, and get whipped again ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: it's not a question of Constitutionality. It's a matter of common sense. The voting observers are required to assist if need be. If I were a parapalegic, and I rolled into the polling station in my wheelchair, they would be required to assist me in filling out my ballot to my contentment. If I screw up my ballot, they're required to trade me out a new one (upon request). If I'm too stupid to punch the hole, they're required to help (upon request). "Excuse me, but I'm too stupid to figure out how to punch this hole, could you show me which end of this thing to stick in that hole? Oh, and what's the name of that communist guy again?". If I don't understand how to fill it out, they're required to educate me. Anything short of this is an offense for which they can, should, and would be arrested. As for my son, he voted twice this election. Once with my wife and once with me. But to keep him intellectually honest, only Daddy let him punch the holes. It was interesting the talk we had about the "bad man" that was trying to be a bully and take everything away from us. Why is it that our kids can see what adults can't? Are they that brilliant (yeah!) or are the others that incredibly stupid? Never mind, I know the answer to that one, and it involves canned food and social Darwinism. I'm no elitist, but I will concede that there are several gene pools out there that could use a healthy dose of chlorine.

BTW: Bush's camp have grown a backbone. They now are on record as saying that if algor doesn't concede the race, they will protest the voting fraud in five different states. And it's documented. They'll win. Nixon had a real reason to question the ballot count, but didn't "for the good of the country". Too bad algor couldn't take a lesson.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
LET IT START HERE!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Now I gotta beat up on you.
I wasn't talking about parapalegics, quadrapalegics, or any other kinde of "?palegics"... or blind guys, or wheeled chaired guys... or even guys that say "Hey lady, I want to vote for freddie, but can't figure this out"... I got no problem with them.

I got a problem with the dingleberrys that vote, and go home, and the next day, when their guy looses, then jumps up and says, "Not fair, I punched the wrong hole, cuz I didn't understand it!".

I voted for (you know who), and now, I can't remember what line the switch thing was on... how does somebody remember several days later, which dot they punched?? Cuz some slickster "TELLS them what to say"!


Pablitoi <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Howdy folks,

this presidential erection has given me a softie, my gut is tellin me Bush has it, but those goddamn democraps are bound to screw us over, I only have one word for it, and it's not nice.

Darren, the only way you can get an 11.25" twist in a .308 is if I get every autograph from the Raiders, and some of the A's. Maybe a helmet would be nice. LOL!!!! Oh, I mean, I'm serious!! heheheh...hope to see ya out here, I'll keep my eye out for ya

I think I can get H-S to go standard on 11.25 twists, gimme some time, let me know if this is the real shit. Ballistically 168's and above it is no contest, IMHO.

Pat, is lock stock and barrel fairly competetive for reloading equip?? I've heard I can go the same for less elsewhere............

I have about 40 45" 50 cals to make here within a few weeks, I may not keep up with the email as fast as you'd hope, but I'll do my best.


talked to my dad this week, says the pheasants are lousy East River, he's really rubbin' it in

check ya later

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I believe the worst of us could read and punch out the right hole in that ballot from 100 meters. Looks like someone from Florida could do it with a pencil from close.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:03:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just checked the news,Isee the democrats continue to be the main source of public embarrasment to a great many of those capable of self thought,God do these sheep ever go away?
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:06:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well I got one blue print for a .50. It was semi auto though. What I may do is re-design the Weatherby Mark V action. I intend to enlarge it to accomadte the .50, this is a proven design. I prefer to work with a bolt gun. Anyway if any of you have any blue prints that detail measurements and dimentions please let me know.

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA? - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:10:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rabon: sheep don't go away naturally, but a predator takes many out at once. Oh, and while we're on this parallel, sheep are so incredibly stupid that they will voluntarily ruin their own habitat, making their area unlivable for all animals except predators. Sound like any country you can think of?

Patron 'Lito: we're shooting at the same target here, really. My point was that the system is set up to handle everyone, regardless of disability, physical or mental. What we have now is a source of mentally substandard individuals that can't admit that they're stupid at the time, and look for someone to blame it on later. Egos are evil things in some people, notably the condescending mental midgetry.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
LET IT BEGIN HERE!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:18:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Slugboy: What kind of jungle did you operate in? Second growth, triple canopy or something different? You mentioned that "Country Snipers infiltrated to positions on main tracks/roads at night." And you said that, "Snipers then lay up at road sides in order to gain maximum view forwards." Does that mean that the opfor didn't patrol those roads at night? They didn't set ambushes? Did you have intelligence to indicate that your operational security was unlikely to be comprimised by moving on tracks? As you know, there's often a trade-off between ease of movement and risk. That type of movement sounds risky. Do you have any comments? Why was the jungle so difficult to move through? (Any of you guys who haven't trained in the jungle should hold the obvious comments. It ain't like Tarzan movies.)

At what ranges did you observe opposition forces and engage targets? Was your rifle capable of neutralizing the enemy's armored personnel carriers under the conditions you expected to engage them? Were they track vehicles or rubber tire?

You said that, in the event of an enemy assault, you were tasked to engage the enemy from the rear. I would assume that your primary means of doing so would be to direct mortar fire onto their positions. Is that correct? Did you think that you had enough mortars at your disposal to repel such an attack? Were their expected lines of communication and staging areas obvious enough that you were able to pre-plot your target areas? Would they be forced to concentrate in small areas for an attack?

Again, if you are unable to answer these questions, we understand.

Pablo, Bravo, I understand that it has been ruled on so there is that all-important precedent. I posted the link. Here it is again.

(Disclaimer: All I know about the law is that, except for Old Dog, I can't stand lawyers.)

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:38:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just checked the news, I see the Democrats(a continual source of public embarrassment to many of us) and their band of followers(quite a bit like sheep)have now acquired the skills of greedy attorneys to
deliever unto us another helping of,you guessed it: More public embarrassment. God do these people ever go away?
If you are incapable of answering a multiple choice question, perhaps you should ask your mother to chaparone and assist you,if the stress is to great bring your analyst along,between the bunch of you,maybe you can figure out a simple ballot, if you still can't get it:Apply to the democratic party their always looking for this level of competence
good night

Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,
Would anyone be able to help me, im considering purchasing a GPS want quality and prefer something thats waterproof. Thanks for any help and keep the shots long.
Ps: i know the 08 is great but does any one else love the 7mag?
Marc <>
Pa, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:53:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just sent an email to your hotmail. If the BS in Washington keeps up I may need to send more money to rush my HTR 308. The way things are headed we could be close to Civil War!! That is if Gore pulls this election out of his ASS! Just how pro-gun is Bush? Can he really undo the harm that has already been done? I sure hope he(Bush) will live up to my expectations! Daren
Daren Yancey <>
Idaho, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 05:50:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gentlemen, as you all have, been keeping track of the debacle, I remember a saying once that an owner of the company I worked for said about his anebriated son.
Thought it quite nicely fit the bill, for what we have been witness to.
We were having a company wide open house, all our customers were invited.
The owners son, was several sheets into the wind, and was taking some customers on "a tour", of our establishment.
Upon seeing said son, in this condition, slurring speech and in general impressing NO one, the father said within my hearing distance to a couple of other customers he had known well for many years.
"There goes a prime example of why some animals eat their young!".
I think this same comment applies to our illustrious Democratic party, it fits so well.
A house divided against itself cannot stand............I fear we are already past this point.
Sorry for the rather off topic post, but after reading some of yours, I felt it fit rather well.
Pray for the country we so dearly love.........God knows we need it.
Two Shoes
Terry <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 06:34:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
It astounded me how Jesse Jackson was able to respond and get down to Florida faster than a quick action response team can get to an airport when there is a plane hi-jacking.

NAACP, Jesse Jackson, James Carvel, and the rest of the attack dogs, it's no wonder these people are often considered the enemy. They don't know how to act with dignity or honor.

I'll try to go out shooting here tomorrow or over the weekend so in my next post I can talk about something other than politics and the "CryBaby Party."
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 07:12:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey, guys, we need some comic relief. I saw this poster in Munich some years ago and finally found a copy locally. It made me chuckle and is vaguely sniper-related. See if it tickles your funny-bone. LINK
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 07:13:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mista' Slug Boy,

Nice posts again!

How about some performance info on your duty ammo, what do you chaps shoot/carry for the .338/416 Lapua AI's - FMJ, API, other?
Field performance of ammo on static and hard targets?


Democrats as Sheep????? now don't go slurring the West Virginny State animal! Plus you can kill'em and eat em (sheep that is) and they are awful tasty.

Democrats - old - stringy - taste like Geritol Gaaaaaaaaahski


On top of ALL the political turmoil you have to bring up (taunt me) ringnecks again! :-) Hmmmmmm oven baked cackle chicken with roasted taters & ham n green beans.


Folks- In spite of all the recent Y2KPOLLY CRAPSKI -




BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 11:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

All: HAPPY 225th Marines!

Today is the Marine Corps Birthday! Semper Fi!

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 12:02:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

What do you call a Gore supporter who can't read or write?

A "Gore-on"


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 13:14:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Help me Doctor, I see STUPID people ..... everywhere all the time!"
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 13:39:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Let's let people who are unable to find their ass with both hands pick the president. To those Dade County retards we could add the faculties of Ivy League universities and the editorial board of The New York Times. All three came to the same conclusion.

What's that tell you?

Do you suppose changing the term 'fool-proof' to 'democrat-proof' would be fair to fools?

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 14:50:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

I think that democrat-proof refers to something that can't be overturned in a court decision.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 15:17:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

First, I'd like to thank the people who will respond to my questions.
And thanks for the wealth of knowledge and this site that adheres us pro gunners together.
I am personnaly an M16 guy. I know, boo hiss hiss. I recently am the owner of a Steyr scout rifle in .308. Please bear with the seemingly ignorant questions.
1. I know .308 and 7.62 are not identical, Is it bad to shoot 7.62X51 military through my rifle?
2. How do I break in/clean the barrel?
3. Weapon system not negotiable, is the 6X40 Springfield Govt scope a viable option? The scout scope it came with is not what I need for longer range (more than 200M) shooting. Without gouging my wallet, what other good scopes exist. I have some use with the Govt model with outstanding success.
4. What rings should I use?
5. Moly, Fail safe, etc. I am used to using one type of factory ammo and sticking to it religously for consistancy sake. What ammo is viable? What should I stay clear of?

Thanks again for your time and knowledge in regards to my situation. I also appoligize for any spelling errors. I am a USAF combat rifle instructor, not a literature major.

Charlie Mike (Continue Mission)

Ray <>
Las Vegas, NV, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 15:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am considering buying a leatherwood scope form navy arms. i was wondering about the reliability of the scope and whether or not it works as advertised. If any one could give me the high and low points of the scope it would be most appreciated. Thanks, PAUL
Paul Lauer <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:18:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am considering buying a leatherwood scope form navy arms. i was wondering about the reliability of the scope and whether or not it works as advertised. If any one could give me the high and low points of the scope it would be most appreciated. Thanks, PAUL
Paul Lauer <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:19:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Happy 225th to my brothers and sisters.

Long live the United States, and success to the MARINES!
Mark <>
Ohio, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:27:02 (ZULU) (your host address:


I hear what you are saying about the Whitman incident. And I must always not try to speak as an know it all, particullarly on incidents I wasn't at.

But, what I read about that incident, was that it was guys with hunting rifles (those nasty "civilians..") who made any contribution to suppressing Whitman. The police apparantly only had pistols and shotguns.

And maybe a fully trained sniper team would have outmatched Whitman by a longshot, but, thats the name of the game. Any time you have a guy gunning down civilians with even basic military/hunting skills, its pretty serious.

Also, a trained sniper team will be thinking perhaps a bit more about other issues, such as "where can I shoot from that provides an adequate backstop against my round to avoid collateral damage etc." than the average guy with a patrol rifle.

I see your point and respect it. Lot's of LEA's issue "patrol rifles" to their patrol units now and that might have saved the day.

However, the Whitman incident was one popular incident which did lead to the evolution of police snipers. There have obviously been several more incidents where they have been highly beneficial to police/public safety.

And while I have strong feelings about Ruby Ridge, that is the exception to the rule and not the norm. Not that its excusable in any way, shape or form.

I think LTC Plasters book, the Ultimate Sniper has a section about this incident.

Keep those beers a brewing! See you around!

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:46:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am possibly in the market for a new rifle, had to part with my Rem. 700 VS-SF(P) / Leopold Tactical 4.5-14X40 about a year ago and am jonesing for a new rig.

Probably will get an identical scope the rifle is the only question

Choices are Rem. PSS or Rem. LTR i can get either for $699

First off is this a good price for these rifles?

Secondly which would you recommend?

I understand the velocity lost by the 20" over 26" barrell is negible with .308

Understanding manufacturing variables in a production rifle which "should" be more accurate?

Thank you all
Geoff <>
Raleigh, NC, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:53:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ray: First off, the predictable M-16 boo hiss hiss. Now then, I shoot 7.62 NATO, not 308, but that's for my rifle which is built for such. A bolt gun can shoot both. The major differences are in powder burn rate and chamber pressure, although a 7.62 is proofed to take thousands of 308's. In other words, have a blast. If it chambers, shoot it. As for break in of the barrel, I clean 'em. After I shoot 'em LOL. Gale McMillan prevented me from doing any of that, and I'm still perfectly happy. As for the 6X40, I have no personal experience. But my money still goes to Lupita. Rings would be determined by the bases, but there are lots of good options. I use the ARMS #22's because I can go from scope to iron sights in about 5 seconds. No moly. I don't purchase my ammo, but I trust Mike in spades, and when he says Black Hills is good, that's what I would bank on. USAF in Vegas? That would be Nellis, right? How about some good dope on the range and competitions down there? I've got intel they're there, but would like some specifics before I try to enter an AFB with a M-25 and an expired Army car sticker ;-)

Ken: Yup! Happy Birthday USMC! I'd forgotten all about today with the distractions of possible global anihiliation. After all, I doubt China knows that we're in a near state of civil unrest, with a lame dick (er, duck) president, and Tiawan doesn't mean anything to them anyhow. But as the semper fidellis has taken history, it will proceed in the future. All out!

And I think I got a cursed starlight case. I was mad about not being able to go shooting, so I left Betty Lou in the case waiting for good weather. It rained for almost 3 weeks solid. So last night I load her up again for this morning, and wake up to a solid foot of snow. It's dumped over another foot on me since I woke up. Heck, after shoveling the drive, my wife took off (not 15 minutes later) and there was another inch on the pavement! Well, atleast the feds will have a hard time getting up the hill HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
time to stay at home and read "a time to hunt", USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:57:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

I know this is still off-subject, but this is a good link. National Review is doing good work.

Bill R already hinted at this, but consider the following Tom Clancy scenario: Gorewinkle appears dumb enough to think he's going to blow off the constitution and O.J. jury his way into the presidency. Professional rabble-rousers are in the process of whipping the inner cities into a Rodney-King-Riot frenzy. THIS ADMINISTRATION does not understand violence but has the power to put troops in the streets. The troops didn't vote for him and don't like him.

There are some mean and merciless people overseas who don't like us and are watching closely. One has the power to disrupt our life blood which is our oil supply. It is the responsibility of THIS ADMINISTRATION to deal with those people while defending the constitution domestically.

The outcomes of these events are completely unpredictable. I expect it will all blow over like that Y2K nonsense.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 17:00:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff: Right-o! And I wasn't there either. And what you took away was very true, the student populous showed up with standard hunting rifles, but he didn't offer enough target mass for them to be effective. Just like someone at TU to be rude. The sad part is that you were right on with the shotgun and pistol stuff, that's what the police had, and what they used. But at that range, shot has virtually no chance of hitting a small target, Wild Bill's "a bullet has to go somewhere" not withstanding. A fully trained, no, half trained sniper team, no, a serious civvie and lazy unprepared sniper team would have outmatched
him. At the time I thought it would be a tough shot (because of the size of the target) with my hunting rifle. At this point in my life, it would have been a called headshot with a CCB, and I'm no sniper. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely. I seriously doubt that a patrol carbine would have done much good, and the point you made about collateral dammage and stray shots was extremely valid. From my viewpoint (around the music building if memory serves), if I had been shooting, the shots would have had nowhere unpopulated to go.

On Lon Horiuchi: I will feel much more at ease when I grab the carton of milk in the morning and see his face on the side. That he is afforded witness protection status is in my mind indefensible. I don't want to start an uproar with you pro-Lon guys, this is just my mindset.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
happy birthday USMC!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 17:13:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

As for the demos and their nonsense, think of it this way: if you rely on the feeble minded to secure your power, you can't be too suprised if they fuck things up for you.

Carry on...
Roger C. <>
Surrounded by liberals with blue hair and five pounds of metal stuck through their faces in Austin, Texas, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 18:01:21 (ZULU) (your host address:



Now that I have that off my chest, I want to thank all our brothers (and sisters) who have served. You can be justifiably proud of your contributions.

The Election: I am sickened by the current election. Got a post that said the Pres can declare the Florida vote "tainted" and disalow it and the electoral votes. Meanwhile Al Gore has not been visibly involved, but his minions are doing everything they can to insure the win. It presently looks like Gore will take Oregon. Would like to know WHY it takes so long for a state our size to count a couple million votes and why it takes so long for the precincts to "report".

Personally, I think we had better get ready for 4-8 years of a Demo President. In another 2-4 I think the house and senate will roll back to democract control. Unfortunately, we seem to have a bunch of Demo politicians/lawyers who have figured out a way to subvert our electoral system and have the lack of morals to do so...

Think I'll go place some orders for brass, primers, bullets, and powder...

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 19:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Curiouser and curiouser.......

For those interested in NM politics, Gore's lead is now down to 164 votes statewide, after the "retabulation" last night and today in the Bernalillo County election results warehouse. The 1700 or so absentee ballots (which include a lot of military) have been counted but not yet announced, and are not included in the totals yet. Our measly 5 electoral votes are still up for grabs.

Interestingly, there are 252 ballots "missing", that officials are trying to locate within the warehouse. How they know that exactly 252 are missing is anybody's guess.

As Gore's lead evaporated from 3700 down to 164, the state Democratic Chairperson announced that she has been in touch with the Dem's in DC and requested observers to be sent here immediately. Earlier she appeared to have no need for them!

Note to DC lawyers parachuting into NM:
I'd suggest a night insertion, it's still dove season out here.

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 19:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just a thanks to all the VETS and ACTIVE DUTY folks out there for their devotion and patriotism to our country. Happy Birthday Marines and Happy Veterans Day to those that sacrificed and served.

De Oppresso Liber !!
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

They should substitute the voting card with a bingo card, maybe then those senile old women can get it right!!
Russ Egan <>
Williamsburg, Va., USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:52:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
To owners of Leupold M3LR scope:

Early this week I wrote an email to Leupold to find out how to get a 308Y dial. Their reply said that "they are developing new (i.e., better) dials that will be available after the first of the year".

"new (i.e., better)" are their words not mine so don't ask me for specifics. But it is something to keep an eye on.

If this has been covered recently, sorry for the rehash, take it as a reminder.


Doug <>
PA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:59:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

You've joind things a few months late... We knew it before anybody.
We even knew it on Snipercountry before most of the people AT LEUPOLD!

The cams for the M3-LR, and the MK4-M3 are being re-calculated, due to errors discovered my some bum on this site, after about two years of work.

Go back in the archives and read the last 6 months.

Looks loke New Mexico is going to join the "recount" fray...

I ordered a 50 cal today, an AR-50 today... more macaroni and cheese ;((


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ray: The scout scope/rifle combination was designed as a complete system by people who knew their purpose and know what they are doing. A rifle-shot certainly CAN hit beyond 200 yards with a scout. I shot a competition against people who used them and who were trained by the guy who designed them. Let's just say that I'm glad we weren't shooting at each other. A guy I trained with used an early scout to break a double on clay pidgeons. FLYING clay pidgeons.

It would be worth your while to go to the links page of this site and find 'Frount Sight' in Pahrump. The honcho there is named Naish Piazza. He's fully competent to show you how to use the scout rifle. If you want a dedicated long-range rifle, there are better, and cheaper, options.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:32:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Perceptions of what is written?
Remember what has been written by me before is a brief synopsis of the events I was envolved in in SL. I will attempt to quantify the last bout of questions:
*Jungle, I would refer to the area of operations that I worked in
more like swampland than jungle. Visability was around 50 - 60m and
it was fairly easy to move through. (Mango trees etc..)
*We infiltrated through the bush, not via the roads.
*Once deployed to the road side I had a view of around 250m forwards
and 400m back down the road.
*F/forces did patrol at night (and used roads, an overt presence was
critical to send the right message to the Rebels) and ambushes were
set. Locations were coordinated by the Patrol coord Officer.
*F/Forces patrolling in my area new the rough area to expect to bump
into me. (This said they did patrol past me on frequent occations
but non noticed my position)
*At this juncture I'd like to add that it rained heavy from around
2200hrs until approx 0900hrs every day I was in the bush. (another
down factor when lying by the roadside cammed up,with no waterproofs
on obviously)
*The idea of hitting them from the rear was a shooting task not a
Mortar task, remember I stated earlier we were out of Mortar range.
Risky perhaps but Hey thats my job!
*Armour was wheeled, we only had ball rounds (no API, due to quick
deployment and difficultly getting the ammo in UK had it had not
been officially cleared through Army sources, Fucking idiots reign,
it was Lapua Ball. Extremly good ammo (for factory produced)
*On ammo we use Lapua for .338 and Radway Green for L96 (which is
poor by competition standards but its what we get issued so we have
to make do, tampering with ammo is an offense in our army, so no
re-loads)Lapua is good and very consistant but RG is very
unpredictable but we hit the target with it (precision stuff is
harder with it, you know X shooting)
*We use DF's (pre-recorded tgts) with Arty/Mor when it is available
to us. Df's were forward of the closest units (5km rear of us)

Hope enlightens previous posts Slugboy!

Slugboy <>
England - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:34:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

On return from Sierra Leone some months ago I posted some photos of Snipers in and around Lungi airfield and one of me in Kosovo on roof above Madelaine Albrights podium during her visit to Pristina. These went to Sniper Country but still hav not appeared in the photo gallery?
Slugboy <>
England - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:40:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
To Trigger 50,

Dean, I need to get hold of you for some assistance. Please email me.

Jeff <>
McKinney , TX, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address:


Also, just a word of thanks to the webmasters who contribute much of what little free time they have so that we can have a forum like this.

Also, in spite of all the elections issues going on, think for a minute about how many places in the world would allow the freedom of speech that we can have a site like this free censorship.

God Bless America and may we never forget.

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:42:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. Rendezvous Pictures

When are we going to see some pictures from this year's Rendezvous?
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:45:16 (ZULU) (your host address:


Hopefully soon, but its my understanding Marius is up to his ears in counting ballots, ooops ;-)


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:58:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

All right 'Lito, you've piqued my curiousity. So "WHAT IS AN AR-50?" he asked in all capps!

Well over 2 feet of snow, and it's cooling off (still snowing!) Betty Lou is feeling neglected.

Anyone think that if I claimed I filled out my ballot wrong, they'd give me a government entitlement program for free M-118LR? Where's that algor red crayon? HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
The banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 23:33:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Happy Birthday Marines and Happy Veterans Day Eveyone....
Estep <>
Michigan, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 00:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Moe: please explain how Algore got over 75% of the jewish vote?
don't the jews have a saying that translates as "never again"
surely they can see the similarities between the current trend and that of pre-war Germany.
As a native american I get very nervous when the Feds try to dissarm us. I remember stories of the "relocation camps" the US forced the Cherokee and other tribes into, after first dissarming them.
Its not just important to vote, its important to make a well informed vote

iiii's out
iiiiwanabe <>
siloam springs, Ar, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 00:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm trying to find some information on a fella named Darrel Holland. I under he makes and installs an item called the Ultra brake. If anyone can provide me with a way of contacting him, I would appriciate it.

Thanks, Bud
Bud Montague <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 01:43:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Men.........I am looking for a spotting scope with the following minium requirements;

a) Must see 5.56 bullet holes at 300 yards in paper.
b) Must see 7.62 bullet holes at 600 yards in paper.
c) No recticle on the lens (cover up bullet holes?)

I would prefer not to sell my kidney but would consider it. HA!


John McGrath <>
Springfield, Missouri (First to ever elect a dead man. Wasted our most sacred gift. Votes!!!!!!), USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 01:47:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Okay - gang - I didn't create this - but it loooks like a good idea for a ballot...

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

John McGrath - Damn dude, maybe the Hubble might pick up a .30 inch hole at 600 yards!!!

Question, "What three things will be left after all life has ended on Earth?"

Answer, "Clintons, Gore and Cockroached".

Semper Gumby Marines.

Gooch <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:47:09 (ZULU) (your host address:


If this is not something you guys wanna see, let me know. I figure current events are good for snipers to consider for future work.

>Panama arms trade a question of supply and demand
>October 18, 2000

>PANAMA CITY (Reuters) -- From gold-laden mule trains linking the Pacific
>and Atlantic oceans in the 1500s to the shimmering canal at the heart of
>its modern service-led economy, Panama has long benefited from legitimate
>east-west trade.
>But with the weapons-laden nations of Central America to the north and
>Colombia's cocaine-fueled war machine to the south, the narrow, tapering
>isthmus now is being sucked into a spiraling regional barter economy in
>drugs and guns.
>Rust-flecked weapons used by former combatants in Nicaragua's bloody Contra
>war that killed 30,000 in the 1980s are smuggled through Panama by land and
>sea to Colombian rebels, often in exchange for Andean cocaine en route to
>the United States, prosecutors say.
>The ideological stripe of the outlaw faction is no object, with left-wing
>Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and National Liberation Army
>(ELN) rebels queuing up to buy alongside right-wing paramilitaries,
>officials say.
>"The trade in arms and drugs through Panama happens for one reason: the
>country's geographical position. It's a path to market for sought-after
>products," Panama's deputy drug prosecutor Patricio Candanedo told Reuters
>in an interview.
>"Drugs go toward North America, where they find their greatest market in
>the United States, while the large quantity of arms that remained in
>Central America head south to where the present armed conflict is."
>Bellicose peace dividend
>When peace accords ended a proxy war between Nicaragua's U.S.-backed
>Contras and Cuban-trained Sandinista forces in 1990, more than 80,000
>combatants were demobilized in a country ranked among the three poorest in
>the hemisphere.
>While former factions handed over thousands of weapons to authorities, some
>estimates say around 50,000 remained in the hands of ex-combatants as
>negotiable assets in the peace process that promised land and credit.
>Nicaraguan police recently pegged the figure at only 5,000.
>"It can't be denied that in the 1980s there were a lot of arms, not just in
>Nicaragua but throughout Central America, but we are hunting them down,"
>Nicaraguan armed forces chief Gen. Javier Carrion told reporters last
>Kept in clandestine arsenals, the weapons are widely available for sale
>both in Nicaragua and neighboring Honduras and Costa Rica. In Honduras,
>from where 15,000 Contras fought their hit-and-run cross-border war
>throughout the 1980s, police say AK-47 assault rifles are cheap and
>"Nicaraguan Contras sold thousands of rifles and pistols in Honduras for
>between $70 and $100, and unfortunately many of them fell into criminal
>hands," police spokesman Hector Mejia told Reuters.
>In Costa Rica, dubbed the "Switzerland of Central America" for its
>decades-old democratic government, police say arms buried in hidden caches
>on farmland along the northern frontier with Nicaragua can be bought for
>$100, with 15,000 rounds of ammunition thrown in for purchases of more than
>While El Salvador's bloody 12-year conflict ended with 1992 peace accords
>that transformed the 8,000-strong Farabundo Marti National Liberation
>(FMLN) guerrillas into a left-wing opposition party, police there say
>former weapons are readily available on a local black market.
>"In former times there were a lot of arms around throughout Salvador and
>some people took advantage of the situation. (But) the black market mostly
>supplies criminals at the national level," National Civilian Police
>spokesman Jose Tobar said.
>Enough guns for an infantry
>In the year to September, Panama police seized enough Central American
>weapons en route to Colombia to arm an infantry battalion, including 362
>Soviet-made AK-47 assault rifles, dozens of U.S.-made M-16s and Israeli
>Galils, and 427 pistols of various calibers.
>In four operations alone last month near Panama City and the Atlantic port
>of Colon, police impounded almost 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) of explosives,
>plus machine guns, grenades, Russian antipersonnel mines and Chinese rocket
>The raids, which netted above 125,000 rounds of ammunition and led to the
>arrest of 16 suspects, including Panamanians, Colombians and one Venezuelan
>national, also found insurgency manuals and, in one case, cassette tapes
>with rousing Nicaraguan guerrilla anthems.
>Security forces in Panama and Colombia say much of Central America's
>leftover arsenal makes its way south to Colombian rebels by boat along the
>poorly guarded Caribbean coastline. Once there, it is sold for cash at a
>500-percent markup, or bartered for drugs.
>Weapons are also smuggled into Panama from Costa Rica across the border at
>Paso Canoas in trucks, from where they are hauled south to safe houses,
>police say. Some continue to Colombia by boat, while lesser quantities are
>hauled east across the Darien Gap's open jungle frontier into Colombia.
>While regional security forces have played down the scale of the illicit
>north-south arms trade in recent months, some countries are now calling for
>international cooperation to interrupt the flow of weapons southward.
>"This (arms trafficking) is a regional problem, which also involves El
>Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama," Costa Rican Security Minister
>Rogelio Ramos said recently. "It's a problem that we all have to address."

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

It's 5 feet long, weighs 45 pounds (with optics), and shoots 50 BMG... and I may give up sheep for it!!

And don't for get the Cheyenne's "March of Tears"!!

Bud Montague...
Darrel Holland can be reached at "Holland's Gunsmithing"...
at 541-439-5155... he has one of the best reputations in the country, and he's very easy to talk to.

Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 03:33:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill R: Oh, Yeah. Well you write THIS down. John Ashcroft of Missouri. Don't ask, I'll remind ya!

Happy Birthday, Marines (Including two members of my family.), and God Bless all Veterans. My flag is up for you, and my heart goes out to you. Without you we wouldn't enjoy the freedom we have in this country.

PaulS <>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 03:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

My name is Chad Hunt, I am with a military Special Reaction Team and I am a sniper with the unit. I am looking for a small Barometer to measure wind speed in the field. If you know where I can get one please let me know. Thank you.
Chad Hunt <>
chatan-cho, okinawa, japan - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
Slugboy: Thanks for the clarification. My confusion is lessened.

Laying in a hide playing host to swarms of tropical insects as it rained for eleven hours a day?

Ahh, the glamor.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:43:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chad: Sinclar sells an anenometer called the Kestrel for about $80. I own one and can recommend it for training and the range.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:47:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Marine Aviator's Pray:
Lord grant me the eys of a hawk,
The wings of an eagle,
and the balls of an U.S.ARMY helicopter pilot!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 05:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

the voting is controlled by the STATE in which it/is/was taken.
Totally controlled by them.
The only way the vote could be thrown out, is if massive voter fraud was discovered.
It has not........
The thing that concerns me, is the fact that a lot of our service people did not get absentee ballots, and a lot that did, did so after it was too late for them to count.(i.e), wouldn't make it back in the alloted 10 day period after the gen'l election.
Coincedence anyone?, got some swamp land for sale in Nevada, yeah, right.
Also, what are the odds of military ballots making it through the US postal system?, any bet takers here?.
Heard several service personell requesting ballots, three months in advance, and never recieved them.
One gentleman requested one three times, went down to vote in person, informed election officials and they checked, and said they were mailed, and he had voted, three times!!!.....By the way, he is a Repub, the three votes cast were all for GORE.
Enough on that topic, thank you ALL service personell, active and inactive, retired, for your hard work blood sweat and tears.......
I deeply appreciate you, and what you have sacrificed for myself and our country..........God Bless you ALL...........
Two Shoes
In the State where Dubyah governs.......for just a while longer!
Terry <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 05:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
Happy Veteran's Day to all who have served or are serving.

Election Prayer: Oh Lord,Can we please have Reagan back?
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 06:15:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

(Big) Brother Two Shoes: there's extreme evidence of voter fraud, and it's not only flagrant, it's incredible. As a matter of fact, I posted such on the PatriotsUSA site this evening, in fuller than necessarily desired explicitness. Granted, it's statistical, but it stood up to my scrutiny at full force without budging. Seems that the "double punched" ballots in the rest of the counties throughout the US were approximately 1%, except for that one area, where they were in the significant double digits. Maybe we need someone specialized in the field to verify these statements. CDC, you up for the job? As for myself, I hereby volunteer my time and effort in the system. If Florida needs a ballot counter, I'm willing, ready and able. I'll have my trusty HP-48GX in my left hand, Linda Lou locked and loaded in the other.

As of now, I'm severly antagonized. I thought it was just good form for the communists to wait until AFTER they were sworn in to recommend a dismantling of our Constitution. Seems Hitlery doesn't want to wait for her turn. But in all good faith, I will not give a complete and total call to arms quite yet LOL.

And to you lawyers out there, is there anything *I* can do as a citizen in the way of a personal law suit against an elected official if he breaks his oath of office? Seriously. I'll pay the bill if I can have some of these fetid pieces of porcine excrement imprizoned on charges.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
2+ feet of snow, guess it's a good time to load more 5.56 NATO, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 06:26:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Paul; so noted uhhuh! Am reminded of another Great Missourian, Jesse who?".
All;Perhaps we will wind up with Each Candidate president in only the states he carried if we ever figure out which ones that is. After all there is no constitution as far as the Demos are concerned. When I look at that map... that might be a good way to divide her up. Aliens from California and New Jersey.. hum! Would they have to have a green card to come to Texas. Suits me! They wouldn't have a problem with immigration. "Left States of America" That has a nice ring to it!
The Left States wouldn't need elections any more, just a line on the bottom of the welfare checks. "Write in the name of your benefactor"!
IN the "Right States of America" we'd just buy em a ticket to California and Smuggle them in overnight. Taxes would be eliminated because there would be no welfare program. Government workers would be offered real jobs and refusers would go to New Jersey. We wouldn't need a Forest Service cause we'd log it till it doesn't burn down every summer. School Teachers who know the first line of the preamble to the Consitition would be retained and the others sent to NEA heaven in California. Medical insurance wouldn't be needed cause without taxes we could pay our own way. Walmarts would be made into indoor gun ranges, and National Parks and Golf courses would be administered by the remnants of the AARP who refused to go to "Left States" and were unemployed by the failure of Walmart. Abortion clinics would be converted to ammo reloading centers and staffed by volunteer Social Security recipients and ex BATF people. Those colored or uncolored who don't notice color would not be noticed for not noticing. Schools and parking lots would be guarded by the NRA and UPS would haul firearms only. Fed Ex would do the rest of the mail and the U.S. Post offices would be Gun Club meeting rooms with P.O. boxes used for Ammo Storage. Oil Companies would produce oil... Cars would have miniguns, citizens would carry their weapons outside their pants and would be very polite. Criminals would be banished to "Left States" to become politicians there.
Sales tax, fuel tax, and brass recycling would provide for the common defense and border patrol. States and counties would keep their own money and not need federal highway and educations funds. And most important of all Soccer would not be allowed and Hamburgers would have to be cooked on flat grills with real grease! Ice cream would have to be spooned and not poured and peaches would be cheap year round. Mama's would let their babies be cowboys if they wanted too.

Just a little vision of Redneck utopia for you all out there.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 12:29:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for the hyperactivity of the last couple of days. This lawyer-led coup has me bouncing off the walls. I'll sit down and shut up.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:03:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

B.Rogers, one redneck to another, find me this utopia and I will crawl on my hands and knees to get there. Call it "Snipercountry Town, USA"!

Lets invite Bravo the brewmaster to set up his international headquarters there, would definitely make the dream complete!

Could also be the international headquarters for; Norcal, Undude Sling Co., Bolt's Fishing Tackle Service; and a zillion other "outdoor friendly" companies!

Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:09:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Got so excited about this idea I hit the trigger too quick!


Are there enough people here that would be willing to develop the idea of a "shooter's paradise" somewhere in these U.S.? There has to be enough affordable swamp or desert yucky land that nobody wants that we could get for a song! WHAT YOU GUYS THINK??????????
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:15:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks Pablito. I've been hanging here only a few weeks. All you guyz 'da best! Can't imagine where I'd be on the learning curve without this resource.

Fly-specks in the election: Al Gwhore best watch his back if he pursues this strategy of cherry picking which counties to micro-recount.

We MUST keep the electoral college in place. Gore did NOT win hardly ANY states. He merely carried the large cities within states to take the whole thing. If we went to popular vote, candidates would only campaign in Los Angeles, S.F, New York and Philly and tehy would take the whole enchilada. The rest of the nation be damned.

Look at the extreme voter skewing here in Philadelphia for example. Lots of talk here about Dems registering mental patients,homeless, etc. (their typical "informed voter" base). In South Philly if you're a Repub, you're dead man walking.

Bush lost ALL of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, just due to Philly. And if Penn went the other way, we aren't having this discussion, we're out celerating Bush as new president.


(Soap box mode off)
Good day

Doug <>
PA, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 16:27:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt: I've advocated such a paradise before, although people didn't seem receptive at the time. Instead of SniperCountry Town USA, I chose to leave the town name "Havana". Or at the minimum "Jackson Hole". I'm assuming that you guys have heard about our local ordinance now that REQUIRES all people to have arms and ammo? In order to keep the lawyers happy, there's "outs" for basically anyone, under the conciencous objector clause. Being true Americans though, there aren't any government entitlement programs for those who don't have a pistol. Note to you California types: this is all that's required for you to keep your "assault rifles". A city or county ordinance passed 180 degrees to the state law.
"All laws repugnant to the Constitution, are null and void." Marbury v. Madison § 5 U.S. 137, 176:
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, looking for a top banana, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 17:35:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Any plan should count me OUT. If you hear me say otherwise you can be sure that someone has a gun to my kid's head. This thing will sort itself out through the existing institutions.

Bush has an obligation to step up to the plate. I will support his effort through work and contributions. I don't shoot, or threaten to shoot, people. I don't believe in Utopia. All Utopias carry with them The Gulag.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 20:43:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, here's this thing: (Hint, Hint SC patrons in Palm Beach County)

I looked at the confusing ballot and fully agree that it might confuse some voters (wink, wink). In fact, I could understand if some Bush supporters might see the big "3" next to Bush's name and assume that they needed to count down to punch the third hole. I can see this leading to a situation where some clean Gore votes, were actually INTENDED to be Bush votes, but the "3" was confusing. I would suggest that any of my fellow Bush supporters, who also happen to live in PB county, might want to think about whether they ACTUALLY voted for Bush, or if maybe Gore got their vote. Hmmmmm Maybe all of PB should be tossed out (w/ no re-vote). Gee, I wonder what THAT would mean...
André <>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 21:31:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC, ease up man. We're just messing around here. I was just trying to get everyone's mind, including mine, off this election mess. Noboby's talking about shooting anybody, just messing with the idea of buying a bunch of land that nobody wants and set up "the mother of all shooting places" in friendly territory.

Well, I reckon everybody including me is about fed up with politics right now. Kinda like waiting for water to boil. I sent Bush and Cheney an email today telling them to get in there fight to win, not to wussy out. Done bout all I can do. I'm through with posting or even pondering it until somebody simply says who won.

We probably need to go back to shooting subjects again. More fun talking about "spindrift" than politics!

Bolt, feeling like having another Bravo Brew, OUT!
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 21:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

On "Spin drift"... does it spin to the right ;), or the left :((


Pablito <>
Used up about 7 years of my life in the last few days... in the very confused, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 22:32:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: I think you might have misunderstood me. All I asked was if you were up to the job of taking a look at an article explaining statistically that the votes HAD to have been tampered with, and making an educated statement of if it were garbage or not. This from a statistics guru, not me. I didn't agree with SOME of the premices in it, although they had little effect in the vote tampering scheme of things. I'm not as interested in how many votes SHOULD each person have got, but proof that there WAS tampering. You may rest assured that my statements are, at this point in time, the same as what I have previously posted. I neither care to run, hide, nor stick my head in the sand. I won't fire first. But if *THEY* decide to start a war, LET IT BEGIN HERE! You may also rest assured that if anyone is holding a gun to your kids head, I will lend any and all possible assistance.

Patron 'Lito: political spin (drift) is always to the left. It comes from the media (medium) that the stuff is flying (through). It's surprising how many carvile "long range crap throwers" there are running about. As for me, count me in the bunkered and cammoed camp LOL
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Insert treasonous politician here ->, Hangmans noose and gallows, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:17:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt...I already said I'm in..I'm in! dag nab it all, where 'n heck is IT gonna Be?


sorry, i know we ain't 'sposed to do that. he he he he he he he

Cory <>
but seriously dude, really., USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Paul; so noted uhhuh! Am reminded of another Great Missourian, Jesse who?".
All;Perhaps we will wind up with Each Candidate president in only the states he carried if we ever figure out which ones that is. After all there is no constitution as far as the Demos are concerned. When I look at that map... that might be a good way to divide her up. Aliens from California and New Jersey.. hum! Would they have to have a green card to come to Texas. Suits me! They wouldn't have a problem with immigration. "Left States of America" That has a nice ring to it!
The Left States wouldn't need elections any more, just a line on the bottom of the welfare checks. "Write in the name of your benefactor"!
IN the "Right States of America" we'd just buy em a ticket to California and Smuggle them in overnight. Taxes would be eliminated because there would be no welfare program. Government workers would be offered real jobs and refusers would go to New Jersey. We wouldn't need a Forest Service cause we'd log it till it doesn't burn down every summer. School Teachers who know the first line of the preamble to the Consitition would be retained and the others sent to NEA heaven in California. Medical insurance wouldn't be needed cause without taxes we could pay our own way. Walmarts would be made into indoor gun ranges, and National Parks and Golf courses would be administered by the remnants of the AARP who refused to go to "Left States" and were unemployed by the failure of Walmart. Abortion clinics would be converted to ammo reloading centers and staffed by volunteer Social Security recipients and ex BATF people. Those colored or uncolored who don't notice color would not be noticed for not noticing. Schools and parking lots would be guarded by the NRA and UPS would haul firearms only. Fed Ex would do the rest of the mail and the U.S. Post offices would be Gun Club meeting rooms with P.O. boxes used for Ammo Storage. Oil Companies would produce oil... Cars would have miniguns, citizens would carry their weapons outside their pants and would be very polite. Criminals would be banished to "Left States" to become politicians there.
Sales tax, fuel tax, and brass recycling would provide for the common defense and border patrol. States and counties would keep their own money and not need federal highway and educations funds. And most important of all Soccer would not be allowed and Hamburgers would have to be cooked on flat grills with real grease! Ice cream would have to be spooned and not poured and peaches would be cheap year round. Mama's would let their babies be cowboys if they wanted too.

Just a little vision of Redneck utopia for you all out there.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:50:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Further anal ysis of the "spin drift" theory reveals further information not yet considered by many of our gurus of physics! The term is actually backwards, it should be "drifting while spinnning". As the spinning projectile exits the muzzle it is immediately subjected to forces of laterally moving thermal currents. Therefore, one must compute not only for downrange lateral force influence, you must now compute for influences at or near the muzzle. Computing for a wind effect of 37.24 mph, one must adjust for a drift of ~.00000002576389457 inches at the muzzle for a point blank shot. In addition, but not limited to, these laterally moving thermal currents rise while heating or fall while cooling thus resulting in an upward or downward drifting vector of ~.0000231457 inches per second per second at a temp inversion of ~.1659 degrees + or -.

These are only approximations, however I believe we must now re-think the theory of "drifitng while spinning" in relationship to tactical distances of <= 112 meters.

Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 01:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

iiiiwanabe -

75% of the Jewish vote? Is that published? I haven't seen anything regarding that but it's probably true, especially here in Palm Beach County. How? Simple, most Jews are democrats and Leiberman is the first Jew ever picked for the "heartbeat" job. If you were Jewish, who would you vote for?

The problem is that most Jews have gotten fat, dumb and happy living in the Banana Republic. As far as "never again," the only Jews you'll see espousing that doctrine live in Israel or belong to the Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, a decidely right wing, militant organization that most Jews shy away from. And before anyone gets rightously indignant, I am not prejudiced. I work and socialize with quite a few of them, so....shut....up.

A dear lady at work (whom I refer to as my Jewish mother) was talking with me the other day about the possibility of Algwhore taking the election to the courts to "get his way." I explained to her that the Constitution did not allow that. She thought that it was his "right" to do so because she didn't like Bush and the hell with the Constitution! Excuse me? So what about the right of assembly, of religion, of speech, of unwarranted search and seizure, etc, etc? Don't these mean anything to you anymore? Silence.

The Jews are, in my opinion, forgetting their own history, now that they too are on the fed's dole.

Andre -

How dare you come in to our great state and try to tell us how to act like morons?! Just where do you get off, dude? I've been here 18 years and I'm just now getting the fine points down, although I still have a long way to go - I screwed up my ballot - I voted for the guy I really wanted to vote for. Damn!

You need to pay your dues, man. Go spend some time in Morrison's Cafeteria and have Jello spilled all over you! Stand in the checkout line at Publix and get your ankles smashed from behind! THEN you can start showing us the errors of our ways.

Hey, wait a minute. You're not even in the right county. You're in Broward, not Palm Beach! DAMN INTERLOPER! Double Damn! HA! ;-)

Moe Mensale <>
LOOK! IT'S JESSE JACKOFF!, FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 01:52:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just back from a day of spectacularly unsuccessful Rooseveldt Elk Hunting. Don't know where the beasties went to, but then our Pacific Coast Rain Forest and nasty terrain don't help much. Hell, I even dropped into the "hole from hell" thinking they might be holed up joy.

Terry, I agree that the states run there own voting, but believe me there are Federal laws in place that allow Billy Boy to null and void the election...why do you think he has been smiling so much lately. Maybe he KNOWS he's not out of a job!

Actually, the whole mess is just that. The problem is that we don't know what the reality we get only selected bits and pieces from both sides. I'd like it settled so we can decide on what our course of action needs to be...

I'm ready to do what the rest of the crew looks like they're doing...getting ready to "bunker down".

Interesting conversation today with Steve Nelson, Secretary of the American Custom Guncrafters Guild. We were both carrying non magnums for elk. In my case a .35 Whelan Improved and Steve was using an '06. Both customs. We discussed people buying "technological solutions" to percieved hunting needs. A good example would be people jumping on the new Remington Ultra Mag Bandwagon. Do the cartridges really perform better and are they needed? Our take was that theres no real difference between a .300 Winch and the .300 RUM. At least not that an animal can tell. Ballistically, you get a 100 or so more FPS, more recoil, shortened barrel life, etc. NOT a good trade-off.

I hunt with non magnums/unbelted cartridges. Note the "move" in that direction. Belts are worthless and unneeded, but have become what defines "magnum". Case in point is the 6.5 Rem Mag. ANYBODY using it today? Ballistics are not as good as my 6.5 X .284 which is unbelted.

The cartridges we have that work have history...The .270, 30/06, .35 Whelan, 300 H&H, 375 H&H, etc. Do we need more? On the other hand it does sell rifles...

Frankly, the .308 will fill the bill for 99% of what I do and hunt, provided watashi wa does his part...

Happy USMC B-day to all you Marines.

To those that have served: Happy Veterans Day. Your sacrifices, past and present, are appreciated.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 02:24:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

You guys know I can't stand communists, but Nader is a stand up guy, and would almost get my respect. Never my vote though. When he was getting grilled about costing algor the election, he put this out, and I had to applaud: "Gore had all the advantages of an incumbent administration, but he never generated enthusiasm, and many voters cast votes for him out of the least-worst attitude, not out of conviction. ... Gore cost me the election!"

Sir Wes: I agree whole heartedly about the magnums. I took a page from Theodore Roosevelt, he thought that the 30-40 Krag was a great round for all but the largest of American game, for which he preferred the 30-06. As of this point, I can't say that I've ever run across any game wearing kevvies, so I will ditto his findings. I hunted with a 30-06 for YEARS, and then, after relocating to an area where the vegitation was more dense, I went to the 30-40. Great round, get's my approval 100%! I don't need no stinkin belts! Rims maybe though ;-)

Here's something interesting, it's a map of where 50% of the popular vote lives, by county: You can compare that to the USA TODAY county by county vote result at: INTERESTING!!!

And now for the moment of curiousity. I did some research on the 7.5mm Schmidt Rubin (7.5mm Swiss), and it it's REALLY close to a 308X284. So why are the velocities so low? In this source, from a 30.7" bbl, they got a whopping 2500 fps from a 180 grainer. That's about 300 fps less than a 30-06 from a 22" barrel. I know something HAS to be up. Was the 7.5 data very light loads or what? It's GOT to be more powerful than the 308, right?
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
peeling the banana republic, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 02:47:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Recently, my friend was told by a gunsmith that he could get his 300 Wby mag to shoot just as well as a 30/378 by chronographing, and reloading. Is that possible? And if it is, could I, in turn, by chronographing and reloading, get my Ruger M77 300 WM to shoot better than a 300 Wby mag?
Ben Seibert <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 03:11:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Real rednecks don't want all of the durn trees cut down...then everyone would see the mess around our houses. That means I'd have to paint my redneck yard ornament...a 1985 GMC Jimmy that ain't runned in 4 er 5 years. Good god..I might even have to FIX it so it runs again!

Moe, Moe, Moe, Only 18 years? You're just a babe in the big swamp. Hang around, Polytics in cracker land just get better and better all of the time. We are the next Kalifornistan dontcha know! Why do you think I moved to the panhandle. To get away from all of the liberal kooks that have migrated to central and south Florida. Every time y'all flush your privies down in Lala land, Lake Okeechobee drops a foot. Maybe we could cross Gators with them there Raptor dinosaurs....the only people that would survive would be people with Guns!!

Damn I like that idea.

Cory <>
Been all over the state, Fl., USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 04:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Man that was a long 15 minutes...just when i found a good thing to read other than election crap it disappears. Thanks for gettin things back in line guys, and to those who replied in reference to my GPS question thank you. Does anyone have a good load for Sierra 69grainers? Will be shooting them out of a Rem.700 Police 1/9 twist
thanks again and keep up the quality conversation all.
Marc <>
not peoples republic of philadelphia, Pa, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 05:36:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just for grins, I took the sample ballot the state sends and I did, in fact, vote appropriately at 100 yards! Couldn't read the damn thing at 100 yards, so I marked it then shot out the holes. Considering the stupid sheeple in FLA who couldn't vote right, that makes me one of the smartest people in the world.

(disclaimer: this was not a scientific test, it did not harm sheep, and it posed no environmental threat, and coming from a near idiot should be taken as it came from the source.)
Hank <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 05:39:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hank, Thanks for your comments! All this election B.S was getting me down. You and Bolt's antics brought on out lound laughter!

Michael <>
needing a laugh, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 10:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

been out of the loop for awhile and have spent the last week trying to catch up on the Roster for the past month. For those still interested, has Gregory packs and in some decent color. The "Shasta" is in Sage(5700 and the "Windriver" is in Forest(6585 I think the 1st ruck I have from Gregory is close to 18 yrs old and while the inner coating is gone it still hauls my gear. Got it when I was stationed at Ft.Lewis. Best ruck I ever "Humped" !!

**Here is a question for the REAL gunsmiths that visit here**
.308 Win is suppose to be 2.8"something" OAL. As we all know a Rem. 700 has alot more freebore than that and if I reload my rounds to be within 0.020 of the lands then there is NO WAY I can load the suckers into the mag/clip/whatever. OK, IS there ANY way to solve this without spending major $$$ ??? I have a VSSF and a 700 Laminated that will do 1/2-3/4 MOA all the way to 600 IF I do my part. Neither rifle has 2,000 rounds through it yet and I can't see buying a new barrel yet. Is it possible to reset the barrel ?? Or something ??

It aggravates me to no end to have to load to "spec" when I know I can get more accuracy by seating longer but when I do that the rifle becomes a single shot. Sure it's easier on the checkbook but ...

Last but not least...anyone know of a supplier for Sellier & Bellot MATCH .308 ?? I would like to try some. Hope the shooters at the Rifle Match at English Range at Ft. Benning today are having "Fun" with the "Sphinx" targets !!!! heh heh heh I have blisters from cutting all that cardboard !!

Will <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 13:55:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


Had same problem with my PSS when I first got it. After dorking around with it for about a year, sent it to smith, who trued receiver and bolt, set barrel back 0.9 inches, recut the chamber, and recrowned barrel. Damn thing punched .2's and .3's consistently. Barrel still fouled like a dog after a Mexican dinner though. Finally dumped it for a Hart 1:10. Original set back and cleanup cost $175.
Bill0294 <>
Clearwater Hey I just found more hidden ballots!!, FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:23:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: The stat stuff I use is the same thing the NSA uses to catch spies. If there's something funny in the data, I can find it. So can the statisticians retained by Dubya. The quickest way to discredit their efforts would be for CNN to try to turn me into the "Montana Militia 2000". The propaganda war is being waged.

Will: We are on the same page on Gregory packs. They're good.

Wes: Can I keep my .338 for hunting elk? Other than that goofy belt, it's really just a .30-06 on steroids. With any kind of center hit, it brings 'em down right smartly. That saves arguments over whose elk it is and you don't have to pass up shots you would with a .30-06. With 250 gr partitions, you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Sounds about like your .35.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:23:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes and 700 PSS Freebore:

What Bill0294 said. Set back, rechamber and have the throat cut to your specs. My 700 PSS is the same way, but I have decided to live with .6 MOA untill I can approach that performance under field conditions, though I have a lathe and most other tooling to do it any time I actually *have* the time to do it. In the meantime, perhaps a recrown and looking at the bedding will help you. It certainly did in my case.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:46:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I,am shooting a browning BPS pump shotgun with a 24 inch hasting barrel and a 3x9 leupold scope with a german post reticle.Does anyone have any sighting in info for the new winchester supreme partition gold sabot slugs 12 gauge 385grain sabot 1900 FPS high velocity.
clark r swain <>
westerville, ohio, united states USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 17:26:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Moe, Actually we are both probably about even since I grew up down here, but left in my eighteenth year to spend my Holidays in boot camp (U Suckers Missed Christmas). After being gone for another 14 or so (not all in the Marines) I'm back. Believe me, I've been, there done that, in terms of the senior contingency. Back when I lived here before, Miami Beach was still a part of the US and was one giant "Senior Living" area. Many a time have I found myself in a line somewhere being held up while some Social Security beneficiary argued with some poor clerk about two pennies. Looks like when they made the great exodus out of Dade, before it was turned over to South America, they leapfrogged over most of Broward and hit PB. I may not live in PB, but I still say that some of you Bush voters might have voted for Gore in your "confusion" and that the only fair end might be to toss out the entire county. Maybe that gives Bush an advantage, but you know Bill Bradley, the messiah of fair elections, really is only interested in what's right, ao I'm sure he would agree. :-)
André <>
Pompano Beach, Fl, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 17:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Didn't mean to upset folks with my comments on belted mags...;-)

Will and Tom, PSS freebore excessive, but they do that so thier barrels will shoot any bullets. I suspect Remington uses the same .308 reamer specs for all thier guns. As noted, if you load to have your bullet just off the lands you're not going to be able to stuff them in the magazine.

I load all my match stuff to 2.800". As you noted having a .6 PSS is great, but until you can shoot to that standard you really don't need anything better. Note: Check the crown. Most can benefit from re-crowning.

Re-crowning: Boots Obermeyer and I have had some serious discussions on this. Most say an 11 degree or 22 degree is best. Boots did EXTENSIVE testing and uses a target style crown and breaks it with a
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett(By God), Oregon, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:23:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, Oops. Hit the wrong key and sent the post before finished.

Re-crowning: As I said Boots Obermeyer breaks the rifling with a
60 DEGREE BEVEL. That is what turned out to work best in all his testing. We won't get into our discussion about gas dispersion around the base of the bullet! I used a 45 degree on my M40A1 clone and it works great. In this case, more seems better.

CDC...keep you .338 Magnum. It's a GREAT cartridge. You didn't see my post to Bravo762. I told him there were only two belted magnums worth a hoot...the .338 Winchester and the .375 H & H. You got a good one...

On that note I think I'll duck and seek cover. The rest of the belted magnum guys are probably locking and loading right now.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone out there remember the name of the platoon commander of the original 5th Marine Scout/Sniper Platoon formed in Okinawa during February 1966. 1st Lt, short, wore glasses. Trying to fill in some of the gaps after 34 years.
Karl H. Grosshans <>
Lodi, CA, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
I recently purchased a Remington 700 ADL in .308. My first choice was a 700 VS, but I couldn't find any dealers that had them in stock (I was told they have been on back order since January). Does anyone know of a way to change the barrel with one that is close to the barrel on the VS? Feel free to e-mail me direct if you have an answer. Thanks

FlyShooter <>
FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


O.K. What is so wrong about my 300 winmag, except it only gives about 5 loads per brass? It has great ballistics (which can be considered nothing more than a 308 magnum), and it is very accurate.

Most people only shoot 308 because they don't really need a magnum and that is perfectly understandable.

But why is the 300 winmag such a lousy round in your opinion?

Hank <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:11:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

BRAVO- 7.5 Swiss.. an interesting cartridge, isn't it really a .308
bore diameter? I remember that in the 50's & 60's some
gunsmiths were trying to do conversions on those Swiss Schmidt-
Rubin 7.5's that were coming over from Europe at the time.
Most were converting to .308W because the length was right, the
bore size was the same, and just like the present .308W ammo
was plentiful and cheap. All of the 7.5 Swiss brass that I ever
saw back then was Berdan primed, was real expensive, and the
military stuff was very brittle. Problem was the straight-pull
Schmidt-Rubin action acted like a grenade at .308 pressures.
I lived in Utah then, and I remember that Ackley wouldnt touch
a conversion on this rifle. I don't know if modern 7.5 brass
is any better. Loading data that I've seen has the 7.5 w/150gr.
bullet & 45gr. of 4895 @2500fps, and the .308 w/150gr. bullet
& 46gr. of 4895 @2750 - so IMHO what's the point?

MOE- I know what you mean about a certain segment of the voters,
and I'm not predjudiced either! REALLY!! I think that they
only vote for what self-serving issues that their "leaders"
tell them to, and not what's best for the country. I wonder
how many people know that they are directly responsible for
the prescence of the Russian Mafia here in the US ? It seems
that after the breakup of the Soviet Union many influential
members of the Jewish community lobbied strongly with
politicians like Liberman, Feinstein, Chuckie Schumer and their
ilk to get the INS to relax immigration standards and get these
thugs to the US on the pretext of "religious persecution".
And now look what they're up to!

I'm praying for a Bush victory, then I'll have a BUSCH

PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hank, Flyshooter, and all.

The .300 Winch wasn't mentioned because I was talking about hunting rounds. I should have been more clear. I consider the .300 an accuracy round. While it works well for elk I have other choices.
MY BIGGEST COMPLAINT with belted magnums is the variences in belt thickness from manufacturer to manufacturer. Size your brass on the shoulders datum line and you'll be OK. Other than that you get short case life.

The other problem is short barrel life. Many shoot out in 1200-1500 rounds where peak accuracy is concerned. That and being a whimp I don't like the recoil.

My 6.5 X .284 does what the .300 does with 190's and with the recoil of the .308. Case and barrel life is undertermined at this point, but we expect several thousand rounds

Flyshooter, on your .308 ADL...if you rebarrel go to the heavier/thicker barrel lug from Badger Ordinance. I also recomment a match tube and new stock. The barrel taper on the ADs is not set up for accuracy, but may do until you can upgraded. You'll want to glass bed, too.

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 21:12:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

In 'Gore, Hungry For Power', George Will is calling it a coup d'etat. The buttoned-down little dude has an eye like a jeweler.

CDC' <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 21:21:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

lar mani <>
hagatna, guam, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

On setting back the orignal 700 barrel... if you're going to spend the money for the labor, go ahead and replace the barrel with something fine... otherwise most of that labor is lost... these original Rem barrels are $18 to $35 dollar barrels. The difference in grouping will not be worth it, and there may be no difference AT ALL!!

Get something good, and knock your socks off!!


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: that's what has been posted repeatedly on the PatriotsUSA site, as well as proofs of different types from different sources. People can call it what they will, but in the end, coup de etat will NOT be a correct bit of nomenclature. Heck, it's only the US Constitution. I've also tried the Gregory packs, and came away with good impressions. As for the Clinton News Network, well, they can throw all the media bias they want out there. Those of us who peg it for what it is don't bite. Those that do aren't serious anyway.

Alan: I was just looking at the 7.5 Swiss because by all logic, it should be a winner. By my calibrated eyeball, it appears to have approximately the same or more case capacity than the 30-06, but in a more theoretically accurate and efficient package. I wouldn't use it in something that had an unsupported ramp, but I was kind of thinking on a Rem 700. Yes, it's a true .308 diameter, according to my source. I'm thinking it was downloaded to use in that rifle, but in a more modern design it ought to be a real keeper. But Redding doesn't make BR dies for it, so it's really just a mental exercise at this point.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
LET IT BEGIN HERE!, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address:


Isn't an "accurate" round placed correctly the key to a sucessfull harvest of game? I do agree on the .375 H&H, make mine a Safari Grade Belgian Browning please. :-)

I believe the .300RUM is capable of just a wee bit more than 100 fps gain over a .300 Win. Mag. I am currently working on a CONSISTANT 190 GR @ 3200 fps load, within pressure specs, and believe that in a quality aftermarket barrel with slightly tighter chamber and leade, magical things may begin to happen. Time will tell.

Throat erosion is the price you pay for the dividends of flatter trajectory and F-A-S-T-E-R & larger payload. Last year it was whining about Varget being "potentially" erosive on the leade, this year its pooh-pooh the Belted Mags.

Dope It, Dial IT, DUMP IT!


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys..........if the hand recount stands in florida then ALL votes in the USA should be recounted by hand to be a fair election. If not then did our vote really count since it appears to be a tactic to elec Gore which underminds the process? If so then we were stripped of our rights. SO can WE sue Gore for doing this to us? Hmmmmmmmmmm

John McGrath <>
Springfield, Missouri (First to ever elect a dead man. Wasted our most sacred gift. Votes!!!!!!), USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Lito-san...what you are saying is that it is cheaper to buy a new barrel with a short chamber cut to mag tolerances than to have the current barrel reset ?? You surely jest !! For that matter...where did this crazy idea that HAMMER FORGED Barrels are so bad ?? fer kee-rists sake...I've shot as well with either factory barrel as I have the ruger with the Douglas XX gaged barrel with a Timmney fact it seems that clean up with the hammer forged barrels is easier too. Maybe I got lucky, real my barrels weren't made on a Monday or Friday...hopefully a Tues !! H&K uses hammer forged and their barrels aren't will someone tell me, "Whats wrong with the factory barrel??"

Evidently my wallet is slimmer (than others) and I have better ways to spend my limited budget than drop a barrel that already does a FINE and I mean F I N E job. I just wanted to know the feasibility & cost to have the barrel set back/whateverthehell ya call it so the freebore isn't so bloody long. So I can load 5 rounds at one time and rapid fire. Is that asking so much ??

Think I'll just advance to the rear and let the big spenders explain while I mutter and plot devious deeds.

OUT friggin HERE !!
Will <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:42:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Lito-san...what you are saying is that it is cheaper to buy a new barrel with a short chamber cut to mag tolerances than to have the current barrel reset ?? You surely jest !! For that matter...where did this crazy idea that HAMMER FORGED Barrels are so bad ?? fer kee-rists sake...I've shot as well with either factory barrel as I have the ruger with the Douglas XX gaged barrel with a Timmney fact it seems that clean up with the hammer forged barrels is easier too. Maybe I got lucky, real my barrels weren't made on a Monday or Friday...hopefully a Tues !! H&K uses hammer forged and their barrels aren't will someone tell me, "Whats wrong with the factory barrel??"

Evidently my wallet is slimmer (than others) and I have better ways to spend my limited budget than drop a barrel that already does a FINE and I mean F I N E job. I just wanted to know the feasibility & cost to have the barrel set back/whateverthehell ya call it so the freebore isn't so bloody long. So I can load 5 rounds at one time and rapid fire. Is that asking so much ??

Think I'll just advance to the rear and let the big spenders explain while I mutter and plot devious deeds.

OUT friggin HERE !!
Will <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:46:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Total muck up on the double post...must be the full moon and all the democrapic idjuts I have to deal with at work.

Will <>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

This may be obvious to alot of you but I have not seen this information here so I wanted to share it.

I use a Mk4 M3 scope but use 175 SMK handloaded to about 2500 FPS. Since my cam is for the 168 SMK I knew it would not be the same.

What I did to resolve the problem is figured out the load I would use and chronographed it. Then put that data into a ballistic program. I used 1 minute clicks for the scope data in the program. I took this data to my scope and started counting clicks up from a 100 Yard zero.

This is what I came up with:
100 1
200 2
300 3
400 4
500 5
600 -1 clicks from 6
700 -2 clicks from 7
800 -3 clicks from 8
900 -4 clicks from 9
1000 -5 clicks from 10

This data was written on small slip of paper and taped into my scope cover so it is visible when open.

I have shot my rifle with this data to 1000 Yards on a KD range and it works well. Though the scope does not allow for precise hit it will hit a man sized target to 1000 yards.

I took me a while to figure this out so I wanted to share it to save someone else the trouble.

Using this type of logic any cam would work for any load just the difference would need to be recorded. Better yet would be to stamp a blank cam with your pet load data.

Keep Shooting, Allan
Allan <>
Ut, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:55:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Will, on S$B match .308.... the best info I could garner on this from this year's SHOT show was that there is but one source for it. This turns out to be nothing but a Mom and Pop operation, at least judging by the fact that I left them 4 messages and they never called back. Very disappointing as I have found the S&B stuff to be generally very good and a very good value, so I assume their match .308 would be at least worth trying. Surprising that they would restrict their .308 match to but one outlet. The best deal in S&B ammo is their 12 ga. OO buckshot. Very inexpensive, very high quality. 12 pellets instead of 9, but not a magnum load. The only downside is the stinky horsehair wads! The worst S&B I have seen is, unfortunately, the .308 ball. Steel jacketed, Berdan primed, not particularly accurate, misfire prone. If you find some of their match .308, please let me know! Would still like to try it.

I also got a line on some Portugues .308 match at the SHOT show but again could not get a response from the 1-only in USA source.
Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 00:26:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Good evening gentlemen. I have an interesting AR-15 accuracy problem, and I'm trying to get several opinions on the possible source of the problem.

I have several AR's, one of which is a heavy barrel Colt CAR, with 1 in 9 twist. Unlike any of my other AR's, this CAR will not shoot heavy (68 gr Hornady/69 gr Sierra) bullets into 3" at 100 yards. The amazing thing is that it will shoot 52 grain Hornady HPBT just fine; about 3/4" at 100 yds. (Like all of my other rifles, the CAR has a good trigger, and a free floating handguard).

When I first encountered this problem, I not only tried my favoride handloads (H-335, WW-748, Varget, 2230), but I fired factory ammo too, including Federal and Black Hills Match, and Hornady.

Results were the same: Lousy accuracy with the heavier bullet. Note that the bullets are not hitting the flash hider, either.

Any comments out there? Most of the responses I've received to date revolve around replacing the barrel.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Mike D <>
Lake Oswego, OR, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Lito-san...what you are saying is that it is cheaper to buy a new barrel with a short chamber cut to mag tolerances than to have the current barrel reset ?? You surely jest !!"

Well, yes and no. lookie. the money, like $150-$175, is total labor that is lost on a $18 (cromoly) to $35 (if stainless) barrel. When you set it back, you still hae a cheap POS of a barrel, but with a good (maybe) chamber. Better that even money, it won't shoot ant better... What the hell kinda dumb stuff is that?? ;((

Send your barreled action to a good outfit, like Douglas, or one of the many good guyz, and have them do it for you. They do it better, faster, and you wind up with a good shootin piece... you can even specify what throat you want... and they will match the contour.

Now, as to the money... will they do it for the same money as it would cost to have the old one set back... no... but it won't be too much more, and you will have a really good barrel, and it will clean up slickie quick! ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:32:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys back from the training class from hell. I was just not ment to be in an office enviornement.

Pete, the 300 Ultra Mag is about 100fps over the 300 Win. I can get 3100 out of my 300 win with 190's and 2850 with 220's with ease. I like the Dope it Dial It Dump it. Now where have I heard that?

Bored with the election crap and can not beleave it has been allowed to go on so long. Bush is President! I wont except any other! This crap that if all the guys that voted for Nader had voted for Gore, Gore would be President. Well if all the guys that voted for Gore had voted for Nader, Nader would be President. Bottom line is Bush won lets get on with it.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:34:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory -

You don't know what you've missed by not living anywhere else. I grew up in Taxachusetts where the Kennedys hold Court. Man, them was fun years! Florida just has a more, er, "diverse" group of morons living here. :-))

Andre -

You gotta admit, things have changed here a bit, huh? HA! LOL!

A Shooting Question!!!!

I am using Federal 168 gr GMM to break in and sight in my Rem 700 PSS. I was under the assumption that .308 and 7.62 are equivalent rounds. I know that .223 and 5.56 are not exactly equals - I use only 5.56 in my Colt. How much difference is there between the .308 and the 7.62 cartridges? Would I notice any benefits to using one over the other? And who manufactures 7.62? Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall seeing any 7.62 at the gun shop.


Moe Mensale <>
JESSSSEEEE!!!!!!! JESSSSEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!, FL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just got done cleaning my custom .35 Whelan Improved. Put it away and arranged the safe a bit. The rifles most accessible are now my M40A1 clone, the Chandler Sniper 6.5 X .284, and my .308 Rem Varmint Special. Guess you know what I'll be playing with this winter.

Have had several posts about my comments on magnums. I'll stand by them. On the other hand you guys that are using them or testing new calibers please share. That's how we learn from each other.

My winter project is stocking my custom 1909 Argentine small ring Mauser in .284 Winchester. It's gonna be a beaut! When completed I'll try to take some .jpg's and post them to you.

Looks like it's gonna be coyote's and crows from here on out. Anything to keep primed. You guys got an good recipes for them...?

If any of you are going to be in the western central oregon area give me a call 541-453-4054 (home) or 541-715-5915 at work. Will be happy to set up a get together and spend time.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:49:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,
It's been a while since I posted on this topic but here goes...I'm still considering going into the service. Last time I got all sorts of great e-mails and ideas from many, and they were all greatly appreciated. My question is this....just it case I do decide to go in, I've been shootin' my Bushmaster (or B.M. heh heh heh...I said B.M.) quite a bit. It's a 16"-er, would I be better off to switch to a 20" upper for more "authentic" practice or should I keep blazing away with the carbine?
Thanks a mil(dot)
Rich S. <>
Baltimore 'hon, MD, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:56:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
Rich: If you can hit with the 16" Bushie, you can hit with the A2. Use the $$ on ammo. Thinking of going in? You may want to wait until the coup sorts itself out. Command may get even more squirrely than it is now.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:17:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello Guys:

Wrote to Moses at the NRA today.

Wrote to my two senators expressing my outrage as to how my states electoral votes were stolen in one city and asked for a recount of that county.

Recommend to you:
(Infra Red Detection and the Sniper)
(Camie stick alone is not enough)

The election is in the process of being stolen going before a Democratic judge in the AM for U guys not following the flow.

Gentlemen the shit has hit the fan. Are we going to have represenative/national goverment or Communist/socialist/united nations/world goverment.

I personally swore an oath to defend the United States of America against enemies foreign and DOMESTIC some thirty years ago.
I've kept up my skills. I put on my cold zero today.

The warriors of America have an obligation to stabilize this society for your children and my children


But in the words of the founders

USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rich, If you are going to join, talk to someone who is on active duty now. I am at Ft. Meade and a a gun club I am joined with is shooting here on the 19th. We are all active duty or retired and can help you in your decision.....Serving Old Glory With PRIDE!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <>
Severn, Md, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:59:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Big SGT...Don't sweat it! There is no way Gore will win. This is the Democrats last gasp at futility. The overseas military ballots will sink Gore. He is just doing what he can to counter it cause he knows he is a LOSER!!!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <>
Severn, Md, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 04:05:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ken or Marius: could I get an ID on this guy? SGT. SCHULTZ USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

I don't really appreciate his sense of humor. But this doesn't surprise me, as it was Perecles that said "if you speak logic to a fool, he looks upon you as an idiot".
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
I hate it when folks don't have the backbone to sign someone other than MY name!, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 04:23:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello Wes,
I'm starting the initial work on a couple of mauser projects for the winter. I've got two Yugoslav M48's on the way, and also two German K98's. The Yugo guns are going to be a 6.5-06 and a 338-06, and I'm still kinda up in the air on what I'm going to do with the K98's. I might make one into a 7x57 or I may leave it as a 8x57, I don't know. I might just see what they look like and then use one to get a good issue K98 out of it. I'm looking at using the Bell&Carlson Carbelite stocks for the Yugo guns and I'll probably get a nice grey laminate stock for one of the K98's and spend some time with a router and some Acraglass to make a nice looking gun out of it. Anybody tried these Zero laminate stocks listed in the Brownells catalog? Opinions. Maybe I'll use it to make a 280Improved target gun. Open to suggestions, no 308Win please, got enough of those. Unfortunately I may need to use it for real sooner rather than later if the crap in FL continues. Hope I'm wrong. Semper Fidelis...Kem M
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 04:55:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
My stepson's tastes in guns run along the lines of "really big and holds a lot of bullets". Taurus 608 and Mossberg 590 are what he has now.

Now he's looking for a rifle and wants a .50 bmg. His budget is about $4,000. Any suggestions? His main use for it would be putting holes in oil drums at long range.
pete robertson <>
colorado springs, Colorado, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 05:00:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe'; the .308 and 7.62 are the ones that are slightly different but don't sweat it. either one will work and interchange in most guns. With out any significan problems. The 5.56 and the .223 are the same as far as I know. You may be thinking of the loadings being different as you can see on other posts here. The heavier Loads of the military or now even Target people have to have a different twist rate to stabilize the bullet. But pay it no mind the difference. It's .308 Winchester or very very close just a few thousandths in some chambers. Someone will have the exact measurments but right off hand I'd just have to surf to find them.

Bravo; would that be your twin brother duffy? Perhaps he is in a parallel universe? He seems to have the same problems we do here?

On those 300's don't waste too much time trying to make the .300 Win mag a 300 weatherby .. you'll be disappointed with the accuracy anyway. The variation in cases do make a difference. That's why I always advocate fire forming them and reloading with optimum case length. The Ultra Mag should eliminate the problem. Many people think that the belted case is superior, I just don't belong in the same bar with them. I know this stuff is fun but don't get too far into the bizzare if you want a practical rifle. The Wildcat bugs will eat you up if you get too far out. Ammo and case problems will eventually make you wish you'd stayed with the standards but don't let me spoil your fun ...

Rich; the 20" may be better for accuracy and speed. I believe it's a magic number for AR's. Carbines are cute and have their place but my experience is that the 20" out perform enough that it's worth it if you want accuracy and range. Something about the harmonics at 20" I dunno for sure?

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 05:44:47 (ZULU) (your host address:


check this rifle out !

looks like I have a new toy on my wish list for christmas.

click here for a look at the AMP <>
germany - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 09:31:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. Twist Rate

I think I've counted the ballots correctly and the outcome seems to be in favor of the .308 & 175 BTHP & 1:10 twist. I'm about to have one of my rigs rebarreled so stop me if I'm wrong here.

I took Andy to see "Charlies Angels" last night. It was a good thing.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 10:00:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Not to be confrontational, but what type of case life are you getting and what is the approximate chamber pressure for 3100 with the 190's? I'm not yet even pushing the pressure envelope with the .300 RUM, the bus fare back to the range for each shot is getting too darn expensive. ;-)

Dope It - Dial It - Dump It is to the best of my memory a Un-Dude original from last years Roster Wars about something that ended up being inane, benign, oh WHATEVER.

Ofta nurse a deviated septum garnered finding out what a twenty year youth advantage over Geezerdom gains in the ring..........

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 11:44:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill & others who emailed me -

Thanks on the .308/7.62 query. It appears to be a case of semantics, huh? If we're just talking about different loadings, I'm not concerned. I don't handload, yet! In my Colt AR15, I use the Win Q3131A or IMI M193 only. These are apparently loaded hotter than some of the local stuff and more importantly my gun likes them. My POI with either is nearly identical which saves me from having to brain fart with a re-zero if I switch. I initially tried a bunch of different brands and the POI were all over the place. Real BS!

Moe Mensale <>
Recount Central, FL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 11:59:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

20" vs 16" AR: For me, 20" every time. But if a guy had a 16" to use as a trainer, shoot it 'till the barrel falls off. My 2 cents.

SSG Adam G. Scott and all military: Thanks for your service to our country. Your work is respected and apreciated.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 12:48:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

20" vs 16"..A2 vs M4.....I was stationed at Ft. Stewart and they were transitioning our company from the A2 to the M4. You wouldn't believe the drastic drop in range scores. People were saying that the range was screwed up. It all came out to the proper application of shooting fundamentals. Fellow soldiers who started out with the M4 had better scores when they shot the A2 than the other way around.

CDC....Thank you for the remark in serving. I have 8 in and just re-enlisted for 6 more. Running a range tommorow in Martinsburg, West VA. Damn I love shooting free ammo.....
SSG Adam G. Scott <>
Severn, Md, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have an apology to make. I said that "...command could get even squirreler than it is now." I was talking about civilian command, not the officer corps. I shouldn't even have said that. The American people elected the guy. He's the C in C. I'm a William Buckley Republican, not some half-ass revolutionary.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


Is that "THE" famous "Sgt. Schultz", the bumbling asshole idiot from the TV series???
Find your balls and backbone, and stand up like a man with your own e-mail address, not a whimpering, skulking, faggot, that steals someone elses... the e-mail address "" belongs to one of our regulars, and I think he's not too pleased with you right now!!

Pete Robertson...

For a 50 BMG, look at the AR-50. After a year of looking around, this puppy R-U-L-E-S... the gun, good (MK4 or B&L Tac) scope, and the little crap, will leave you with enough change from his $4k, that he can take you to "Wendy's" for a Bacon Cheeseburger.

I just ordered two of them (one for a friend)... go here.

... and poke around.


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pete, honestly I do not use a case loaded toward max.more than one reload. I once had a case come apart and always go for max protection when reloading. When the free supply of brass comes to a hault this may change ( I retire). The only exception is the 338 Lapua. The brass costs so much I have some Lapua brand with six or seven loads in them but I use lighter loads (if you can call any 338 Lapua load light) If I could only justify the round a s a duty one. On the Dope it Dial It Dump it. I remember just funning you. By the way discussion is not confrontational.LOL

On setting back a factory bbl. The major cost of a match bbl is the labor so if you want a match set up get a new bbl and have it installed. If you go with a recut original keep in mind the following You Can Not Polish A Turd!

Wes, I agree the 300'as are accuracy rounds. If I was hunting something too big for a 30-06 I would step up to atleast a 338 Win. Big holes make more damage.

CDC and others on the 16 versus 20 AR's. I agree the 20" will shoot better at distance than the 16", but for me I prefer the 16 for carry, entry ands as a second weapon to my sniper weapon. If I used the AR for primary in a typical North America enviornment the 20 would win hands down, but with a sniper rifle on my back I want a 16 light bbl in my hands. Kind of a very longrange pistol.

Pablito, an AR50. Dude that thing will shoot very well but you need a Dolly to carry it, 42lbs without a scope or ammo. The Barrett 99 is 23lbs and shoots under one moa. also. Once you strat messing with 50's your bank balance will go to hell.LOL

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:41:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

'litos right(As usaual) You would be money ahead to just have it rebarreled with a quality barrel. Neither of us are saying, the Remington factory hammer forged barrels don't shoot, its just that they won't shoot as well as long and when they foul heavy the accuracy goes away faster also. If you ever get a quality after market barrel you will not believe the difference in the clean up and most likely the accuracy, it will be money well spent. I have had them set back and most of the time they will shoot better but in the field you can't really tell the difference but then if your anal rententive like me well.....Just my 2 cents worth.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 15:33:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
The Wall Street Journal is doing good work:

Check out Robert Bartley and John Fund. It's important.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 15:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


Sure it's heavy... I figure with a pair of "Max-50's", and a scope, M-2 bi-pod etc, it'll run just shy of 50 pounds...
... but think about it, I can drop the membership to the gym, and just press the riffle 10 times every morning, and I'll look like "Big Arnie S" by next year's Storm match ;)
... and, I won't need my shoulder blade fused, when I have a few years on it...
... and I won't need a Grayhound ticket to get back to the range after shooting the puppy, (like SOMEONE we both know!!).

I'm looking forward to it... it'll be a long 5 months :((

I'm gonna put a Mk4-M3 for up to 1400yds, and a B&L Tac on it for REAL distance... (got the 50 moa tapered base;)


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 16:28:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sir Wes

I find it interesting that Chandler is building sniper rifles in 6.5 X 284. What are thier thoughts on the cartridge?
I am curious, is your rifle built on a long action, or can a short action be configured to accept the 6.5 X 284 and still be magizine fed?
I think it a little funny that certain people on this site hack on you for experimenting with the 6.5 X 284, saying it is a nonstandard caliber. When these same people also shoot other calibers that were at one time nonstandard.

All for now.

Bill Byford <>
IL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Bill,

Before you declare New Jersey as the "uber alles" armpit of the east, take a look at Mass and CT (lito's state). Notice all the blue???

The voting district I live in exceeded 70% in it's attendance, and voted overwhelmingly republican. We are just outstripped by the suburbs of Camden and Trenton, which are notorious as HUGE welfare cities (I read somewhere that Camden's population was 2/3 welfare recipients)....I think it's important to note that the Northern commuter counties of New Jersey, the ones full of New York City "yuppies" voted Republican.... CT cannot say that...

Perhaps the only people voting pro-democrat in New Jersey are the ones getting handouts and entitlements... - thanks Bravo, for the link
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito - Saw the AR-50. Planning on taking out some VW bugs or something? Saw the photo of the floppy disk. What I want to know is how you got the powder burns off!! :-) (just joking) Great shooting!!

CDC - Thanks for the editorial links. They're well worth the time to read.

Duman <>
nofingernailsleft, onlyinthe, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, I have to disagree with you on the AR50 ruling. Been there shot that and I like either the Barrett99 or the M107/M95 far better. Then if we go to the Navy Pattern McBros Actioned rifle built by George Gardner you will really cry. The 99 costs about 2600.00 so the price is about the same. The99 I have shoots better than 3/4moa. The 99 comes with a Krieger bbl! Everything I have ever gotten from Armalite has been low bid. Even when US Optics made the scope for them, Armalite cut the specs The scope had good optics and pee pee poor internals. Not the usual high quality of US Optics and that is why the scope never said US Optics on it. Dont get me wrong the AR50 is an inexpensive good shooter but it does not need to way nearly double what the going rate is and is no where near the ruler of any 50's out there. We may need to have 50 put into the match rules. I will carry the M107 and you the AR50, for about 20 klicks and well never mind, you are a friend and that would just about kill anyone.LOL Be happey with it, but when you said it ruled several of my 50's started jumping up and down demanding I say something.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 18:41:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Partner Jim: no, thank YOU for being interested enough in our country to be on the Patriots site. Glad you could use the info!

Patron UnDude: I'm with you 100%. The 20" is easier to hit with, I think it's due to the longer sight radius, which is why my 16" has the standard full length sight radius. That having been said, if it's not for close in, I'm gonna ditch it and pick up a M-14. Long range pistol, you know, that really is a quite accurate descriptor!

And speaking of M-14's, talked to Geoff today. Seems that he *JUST HAPPENS* to have a pre-ban M1A Springfield Inc stripped receiver lying around. Now, in a corner, with my name on it ;-) It'll be built to extra light status, with a good barrel and a worked over US GI synthetic stock. It's about time I replaced the battle rifle slot in the safe. My guess is that it'll be well under MOA, and I know it'll be filled with all premium US GI parts. Battle rifle, here I come! HA!

Patron 'Lito: Thanks for the stand-up, probably some 16 year old kid wanting to stir stuff up or antagonize. I think he would be surprised to see how much I don't really care. Minor annoyance at best.

CDC: half assed revolutionary? I don't suppose you've caught that nationwide there's been a documented 900% increase in ammo sales over the last several days, have you? Ask Cory how many CASES he sold yesterday. Basically, there are those that understand what's going on, and those who for some reason either don't listen or refuse to. I'm not a "half assed revolutionary", as I keep it in the system. For those that don't want to participate though (or quit participating after they leave their ballot in the box) then they have no right whatsoever to gripe if the worst case scenario should come to pass.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
the banana republic, ready to rot, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 18:55:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim Mitchel: I see in NJ where the Workers World Party with Monica Moorehead running for president got 4307 votes. More than the Florida Margin dispute. Does this mean the presidency will again be decided by a Monica and something about Moorehead ?
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 19:16:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
If you want to see a voting map of the USA showing the COUNTIES that the two guys won... go to:

And it pathetic... gore got the libral coastal cities and NY, CT, and MA... Bush got the rest of the WHOLE contry!!

If we give up the Electoral college, we'll loose the constitution.

What's this crap about carring it for 20 klicks... whatdaya think "Spotters" are for?

Ken has the right idea... "AR-50 Towed"... I ordered mine with optional wheels!


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 19:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: I pretty sure I have a fair idea what's going on. It looks like a cross between Livia's bribery of the Vestals and Julius' challenge to legitimacy of The Roman Republic. The bad-guys won both those. It wasn't pretty. But thank you for your input as well as your explantion of the limitations of my rights.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 21:06:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: maybe I took it the wrong way, but since I'm the one talking about the more unsavory aspects, as well as their possible unsavory resolution, of this election, I took the "half assed revolutionary" personally. Maybe I shouldn't have, so if this was a slam fire, then my appologies. The wording on the "limitations of rights" was chosen as "those" for a specific purpose. Not directed at you, but at "those", however you might feel it pertains or doesn't to yourself.

Now for a true American Patriot: check out
The founders' wisdom by Alan Keyes
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
peeling the banana republic, formerly called the, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 21:17:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I hate to help spread a rumor that I can't substantiate(Sp?) and
can't even remember where I heard it, but... what's to the story
that says that you can't allow Sweet's 7.62 and Shooters Choice to
co-mingle in a barrel without causing a very harmful (to the barrel)
chemical reaction? Does chemist & brew-master Bravo know the answer?

Colt prohibits ammonia-based copper cleaners in their CAR-A3 H-BAR
ELITE (Accurized) Rifle with the 24" stainless bbl. Does anyone know
why? H-S Precision mentions nothing about this in the sheet that
came with my Custom Classic Sharpshooter Stainless .300WM. BTW- if
JR is lurking-this thing REALLY shoots (#MO604-8)!

Watching as the Country is being stolen, and not knowing what can
be done about it. Not any trust in judges, lawyers, and the courts!

PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 22:17:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Alan: I don't use either one of those solvents, so I couldn't tell you specifically. If I understand correctly, they both work off the ammonia-copper reaction, but I can guarentee neither are just ammonia. Might be the balance of solvents not liking eachother. Both will like chrome though, so that might be the reason for the Colt (dunno). If I had both (or either one for that matter) I'd run an experiment on soft steel for you. Sorry.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, looking for ANY honest man, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 22:32:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have read this from many knowing people, and I would suggest that you take it as a warning. I don't use either of these because of these warnings...

I use Hoppe's #9... you can leave it in the barrel for days... smells good, works good, must be good ;))

I have a Colt flat-top HB Match w/24" stainless, and got no warning about ammonia stuff... but I got it whan they first came out, and maybe something has shown up in the years following it's release, that's a problem... anyone else have info on ammonia in Colt stainless guns??


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 23:19:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Used self-control at gunshow this weekend! Am very proud of myself:) Did not buy any weapons of mass destruction. Wasn't a whole lot there to buy. The gun show here in Winston is getting worser and worser. Would really enjoy going to a show that had some good STUFF to look at.

Did pick up a Benchmade 710 Axis folder and it has to be one of the sweetest folders that I have placed my paws on. Try one out and then consider the sticker shock. I had already sold a couple to pay for it so I just consider it a trade.

Well it is now bambi season and I just don't feel the fire this year. Felt the same last year. Gonna go for a couple of days anyway just to say I did. Hopefully this yucky feeling will disappear soon. Getting to where I just like paper targets. Hell I usually only end up helping clean everybody else's deer anyway. Also getting to be too many crazies in the woods, even around our lease. In another month can set up my range anyway, that will be good. Full 1400 yards clear and and 1400 acres to stalk on. Up and down shooting to boot. Getting the time of year when I get fresh road kill dear calls from the folks that live on the main road down the street.


Bolt, OUT and ABOUT!
Bolt <>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 23:36:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

After reading this web site for months (dang, if you don't have a TON of invaluable info here), I finally decided to break down and buy a new toy - the current political Bravo Sierra being the last, necessary nudge.

I decided to get a Remington 700 VS in .308, a Leupold 3.5-10 LR-M3, and Badger Ordnance rings and mount.

Off I went to the local shop owned by a friend of mine and waited and waited while he called all his distributors.

None of his distributors has the 700 VS.

What gives? Did all the hunters buy them up already this year? Or did Remington discontinue them? While waiting, I picked up a 1999 Rem catalog, paged through it, and found the 700 VS - listed in Left Hand Only. Ugg!! I aint no leftie!

MikeL <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 00:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

'lito, Making the 50BMG plunge, eh?
Boy are you in for some fun! Shot one of the AR50's a few months ago. It is a heavy monster. The kick is very managable. After shooting 82A1's all day for the last 2 months for a foriegn order I was beat. If you really want to wring everything you can out of the AR, call Arizona Ammunition. The match stuff is pretty stout, get the "practice" loads. Just a touch more pressure than the regular M33 ball.

Per your question on the BiggerHammer board. You can realistically expect 1500-1800m hard target hits. The wind really plays hell on the 50 projectile. The BC for the mil-stuff is terrible. I went to Benning a couple months ago to repair the Sniper School guns, went to Red Cloud range and hit the 1800m M113 a consistant 9 for 10 using MK211 Raufoss.

Have fun with your 50!
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 01:42:46 (ZULU) (your host address:


Yup... I got "The Fever". My last exposure to a 50 was a custom shellholder rifle, and I didn't like it a bit... kicked you into next week... three rounds, and you went home (with buzzing sounds in your head)!

I wanted a good turn bolt "Mauser" type, with a "BFMB"!! (Big Friggin' Muzzle Break!!).
I saw a AR-50 at my dealers, and he let me play (as in take it apart), and I fell in luv... placed an order for one, and called him back and ordered one for my friend (the shellholder gun guy).

I'll be loading my own... everybody will laugh at me if I shoot factory.

Does Dean's book have accurate flight curves (tested, not caculated), for military ball, AP, API, and APIT, etc...???
I'll load the A-Max's for a lot of shooting, but also want to play with military projectiles. I have Incendary for my .308, and it's a friggin' riot.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 02:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh great brewing & shooting gurus I need some of your knowledge. I almost have enough shekels saved up for my Texas Arms 20" .223. Do I really need Badger hardware to hang my Lupita on a short range .223? Do I go with another LR M3 or do I try an M1? It would seem to me, that for short range "surgical" work, the M1 would be the scope of choice.

Would also appreciate any comments on an Armalite AR-180.

Thanks guys

MikeL in Milwaukee,
Remington discontinued the RH .308 VS for 1999; but they are making them again. If you need help finding one, drop me a note and I'll see what I can do.
Doc <>
The Ozark boonies where we vote for "live" people; not dead ones!, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 02:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Doc, may I make a humble suggestion? Give a look to the 2.5x8 VXIII if you are in the <400 yard range. I have one on a Model 7, 7mm-08 and it is just about poifect. I will pass on the Badger part, if you have the cash burning a hole in yo pocket go for it. I would stick with the standard Loopitos if you are not heading for Storm Mountain with it.
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:26:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gents, First, and last, politico post, but needs to be shared.
Been a long time since Civics 101, so this really came as a surprise to me, and po'd me at the same time.
There is a method to Gore's madness, and this is it.
"IF", Gore, can keep the state of Florida from appointing "Electors", until Dec 18th, when the electors meet.
Florida's electors WILL BE EXCLUDED.
Gore will WIN, with 260 votes.( straight from the 12th Amendment).
This is the reasoning behind the hand counts, and court orders, and suit, counter suit..............DELAY.
Not to leave you with all BAD news, the county of Broward, has decided NOT to do a hand count, seems out of nearly 4,000 ballots hand counted, only 4 more votes for Gore were found.
This is great news, and a major blow, to Mr. Blow.
Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:35:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yeah, Deans book has a lot of decent poop in it. But there is a some that just doesn't jive with all that I've shot with my time at Barrett. I'm no expert, but I do have over 30,000 rds downrange with the 82A1 and the M95. The farthest I've shot is 2400m. Hits that far are more luck than anything. Reading the wind with this cartridge can be a real lesson in heartbreak. The mil stuff is really agravating. You can get really good results with the M8 AP. It flies truest of any of the mil stuff out there.

If you do decide to use the AMAX bullets, watch out what you buy. The 1st generation stuff is about 1/4" longer than the new projo's being made. The old ones will fly through paper sideways starting at around 250-300m. Will get the OAL of the new ones we have at the shop and mail it to you with some reload data that I came up with for the AMAX. Them bullets are something else.

We got in some factory match rds for the 50 a week ago for me to test, they are real nice rounds. Got a consistant 1MOA with the M82A1 out to 800m. After that it ran 1 1/4min out to 1200. That was all the shooting I did on the 82A1. With the M95/ XM107, it ran 3/4min all the way to 1400m. I was duly impressed. I didn't think the ammo makers had it in them. Can't tell the producer yet, they don't have their patent yet. We got a case to test out.

'lito, shoot me your address and I'll send the book to you to check out.
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address:


As for short barreled .223 bolt guns and scopes I'd go with a Luppie 3.5 X 10 Vari-X III. For the gun and use you described you don't need Badger parts or the MKIV series scopes.

I used that scope on my Rem Varmint Special .223 in PA. Much to the demise of many PA ground hogs. Clean kills to 400 yards were common using 55 gr Nosler soft points...

Save the money and by components and gas for your hunting trips.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:43:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Doc: Bolt's talkin' some stuff about the 2.5X8 loopie. Nice and compact. 8X is still a lot of X. If it is truly a short range rig, the lighted reticle 1.5X5 might be the ticket. Advice worth what you paid for it.

I've never seen the QRW rings used on an AR. Why not?

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 04:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Terry in TX...not to worry. Our Secretary of State is going to force the FED to observe OUR state law that says when the votes must be in to be counted. They have till friday.

Damn, the AR-50 weighs 40 lbs? whew sounds like it needs to be mounted in a FAV.

Cory <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 04:39:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone have something to say about the HS HTR?
Ervin <esromvre@aol.comBo>
BoxElder, SD, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 05:56:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Has anyone had a chance to try LANTEC wepons?
Ervin <>
BoxElder, SD, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 06:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Has anyone had a chance to try LANTEC wepons?
Ervin <>
BoxElder, SD, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 06:31:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ref. Sniper Matches

I've been checking the "Calender of Events" section and there is no mention of upcoming sniper matches. What's coming up?

What's the skinny on the Florida shoot? It's getting cold and grey around here and I could use some beach time. out there? SITREP??

Off Topic: I've never hunted coyotes before. They're all over this area now. What reference material would be recommended? What's the best way for me to come up to speed on this? e-mail is ok, don't take up space here with replies.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 11:46:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys...........I am looking for advice on a spotting scope. I would primarly be using it from the bench and would like to be able to see 5.56 holes at 3 hundred yards. Am I expecting to much? Your feedback is welcomed and personal e-mail is as always great. Thanks.

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 12:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address:


Check out Tac-Ord, they have a .50 built on a harris action & K&P BBL, it chambers the .50 short (some type of spotters round) or you can get the full .50 BMG all wraped up in a nice fuzzy 20-25 lbs.
It was developed as a sub-sonic gun, but my bro Jamee Wade at Tac-Ord will make it into a super-sonic full .50 .

check em' out


Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 12:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

If it weren't for the fact that Clinton/Gore could slither through a drinking straw, this would appear to be decisive. It depends on the meaning of "shall".

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 13:25:16 (ZULU) (your host address:


"Also getting to be too many crazies in the woods, even around our lease."

This past Saturday was opening day where I hunt, and I almost got shot one once, not twice, not even three times, but FOUR F-ING TIMES! I am now very well aquainted with the distinctive CRACK-BOOM of supersonic rounds passing close to your head.

Gotta go buy an entrenching tool before my next hunt...

Roger C <>
Where hippies and body-piecers are considered upstanding citizens...Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:22:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes,

What else do you expect from a party heavily financed by trial lawyers associations? They've made the justice system into an entity that rewards those who know how to manipulate the system, not an entity that actually serves justice.

Still trying to make it up to Tac-Pro for the precision rifle course. Maybe I'll see you there.

Roger C <>
The only place in the country where a nude beach and a birdwatching site are placed right next to eachother, Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:32:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I know you are a hard and fast Hoppe's user, but I've used a wet patch of shooter's choice for years to push the Sweet's out of the barrel with no ill effects. My factory VS still shoots 1/3 to 1/2 MOA after 600-700 rds in the last 2 years. I don't want another Hoppe's vs. Shooter's choice vs. Sweet's vs who knows else battle string. (I remember last time ).I think if you follow the instructions on whatever you use you can't go wrong. Just my $.02.
Jamison <>
It's gettin' cold down in, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:39:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Once you've heard the crack & thump the danger is past. A sudden inexplicable change in your posture accompanied by a burning sensation and disorientation could mean something else.
I once returned from a night in the 'ville suffering from disorientation and it was accompanied the following morning with a burning sensation. But that's another story altogether. ;-)
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 16:02:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yeah, I remember that silly thing about cleaners... I still have a gallon jug of green patches, smellin' real good.

My choice is based on how I clean, and some long term brand loyality.
I often come in with several filthy guns, and I just sloppy wet patch them, and finish up the next day... well maybe a few days later, so something that can't be left in the barrel, don't get into my place!!

And I'm very brand loyal... if a company serves me well, I hang in there, and I love the smell of that jooce... been smellin that Hoppe's #9, and G-96 oil for more years than most of youz guys have on your drivers licenses.
I go down into the basement, and the aroma on #9, and G-96, that's soaked into the work benches for years, says "Welcome to heaven, Dude!"...
... it's better than two keys of "Mexican Black Hemp"! for a high ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 16:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address:


Kush mentioned a shortened .50 cal round rifle by Tac-Ord. Believe this is the old spotter round for the 106 recoiless rifle. Designation was M-8 spotter, I believe. Neat gun and concept. Spotter gun was semi-auto magazine fed and had the same trajectory as the 106MM. Pull the knob to fire the spotter. When you got a puff of smoke on the target you just pushed in and fired the 106!

I may be dating myself, but anyone here even remember the 106?

(Who actually fired one!)

P.S. It gets my vote for a "heavy snipers weapon". Of course backblast is a bit of a give away, but the guys on the recieving end usually aren't in condition to bitch at that point. Beehive gets my vote as the antipersonnel round of choice!
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:28:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Roger, hope you can make it, it's going to bw a small class, I talked with Archangel, and looks to be around 8-10 folks.

That will be good, lots of one on one training.

About the what did I expect, sorry to say nothing, that's the sad part.

Now with the news of high jacked military absentee ballots, and fourth class postage put on some,to make sure the mil- guy's/gal's votes would not make in time, has got me to the point where I will never trust a Democrat again. Period.

I never have trusted most politico's anyway.....but this has iced it but good.

Whatever happened to real Statesmen???

Two PO'd Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:28:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks.... to all of you guys that answered my post about gun cleaning
both on and off the Roster. I wasn't trying to start a shit-storm over
the choice of cleaners, so I'm glad that one didn't errupt!

'lito.... I agree with you 100% on the #9, I too have been using it
for more years than I can remember. My wife even likes the smell of
the stuff, and it's much cheaper than Chanel No.5 ;-)). It's just
that I get lazy sometimes, and was just investigating different
products that are said to work faster, before ruining a barrel or two.

Political thought.... Algor should probably win the election... after
all, he did graduate from the Electoral College...didn't he?

Bruce and Hugo.... I didn't mean ALL lawyers, just their guys :-)

Keep praying,

PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:36:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thought you guys might enjoy this:

Dear Janet Reno,

I need legal help fast!! My rights have been voilated and I do not know where to turn.

I woke up thursday morning to discover I had the correct Texas Lottery numbers, however, I mistakenly put the wrong numbers on the lottery ticket!!

The ticket was so confusing and hard to read that now Im not sure what numbers I put on it. I do know that when I heard the winning numbers Thursday morning, they were the exact same ones I had when I went into the store to fill out the ticket.

I asked the store clerk for help and explained my difficulty, but, all I was told was, "Man are you stupid? Just put some numbers in the blocks!!"

I believe my civil rights have been violated and I am (With a little help from the local chapter of a major non-profit organization) writing you a letter to have U.S. Marshals come to Austin and freeze the lottery until I can get my ticket re-issued and the winning numbers acconted for.

Can you help me with this problem??

Again, I did have the correct numbers, however, I couldn't read the ticket, figure out the numbers or how the numbers were arranged. This is a gross injustice and I am the WINNER!!

Sincerly yours,

A Real Dumb-Ass Floridian
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 19:55:02 (ZULU) (your host address:


Actually Algor INVENTED the electoral college, or so I've heard. HA!

Wes, I think I saw one in a museum once. But seriously, It looked like a cool round, not as punishing as the full .50 BMG
Which brings me to your anti-personell choice, 40MM beehive is a fun round, takes a door effectively off the hinges in a CQB enviroment.


Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 19:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address:


Friend of mine (a retired Navy Master Chief) put it very well this morning when he said that the Dems have always suffered from a lack of gentlemen in their party. Repubs will take into account the greater good of the country and do like Nixon did and back off even when they're clearly right in order to avoid a dispute that will damage the country. A Dem doesn't care about anything but his own self interest. Liberals are so perpetually indignant. They're constantly going off at the mouth and people take the attitude of "let the baby have his bottle" and give them what they want just to shut them up and make them go away. The only problem is, they never shut up and they always come back.

I just got the package from Tac-Pro yesterday. I read through it at my desk just a while ago and saw that I'll need to bring along at least 200 rnds of ammo. Don't know why, but I hadn't considered that when planning the excursion. D'oh! Guess I'll need to order that case of GMM 168 I've be procrastinating over...

Roger C <>
Quoth Clinton, "You want a cigar?" Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:13:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Report on missing military ballots:

So, are the bulk of overseas ballots coming from expatriates living in Israel? And who is watching the post office? Is it possible to "misplace" ballots that can be identified as military?

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:42:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have posted those you who are regulars here a rather interesting joke.

I apologize for that actually because I personally hate getting more than the occasional joke but I thought this one was too sweet to pass up considering the current political side show we are being forced to endure.

I fly on the morrow and will be back in a couple weeks. Business south (way) of here beckons.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Headed for a third world nation tomorrow to purchase land. For real and with the intention of making a move., Will brief you upon return if interested., USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:47:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 01:30:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

A lot of political posts...just wish they'd get it over with so we can take action one way or another...

Kush, Been awhile since I've seen 40MM Behive. Last time I used a 40MM was to blow an armory in place during Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
It was our armory and it's a six beer story!

'lito, anyone who underestimates the power of Hoppes #9 doesn't know much. My wife (then lady friend), put a dab behind each ear. We've been married 10 years now. Shit, you think it should come with a warning label?

All for now.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 03:33:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes: I never shot the 102. Will the 90 do? Obsolete? Hell. Could be a world of good in MOUT.

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 05:31:47 (ZULU) (your host address:


First, read Scott Powers' article on detachable magazine systems. Then, tell me what you think of the H.S. Precision detachable magazine system. I am planning on installing one on my Rem 700P. I have seen the system in an H.S. HTR rifle just last week, it looked and felt excellent. I was very impressed by the quality, and liked the way it aligned the top cartridge with the boreline (centered in front of the bolt face). Also, Armament Technology apparently uses this system in their rifles.

JR from H.S., feel free to send me any info on this system.

onezero <>
Don't Tread On Me, in the, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 07:01:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes (aka "Nom de Plume)...

You're absoluty right... every time my lady wanted "you know what", she'd dab some Hoppe's #9 "you know where"! And those of you that don't know what "you know what" and "you know where" are, you're too young to be reading this site! ;))

It's Wednesday again... gotta go make money for "you know what" (the 50 BMG)... a good set of match grade dies (C-H)... $500 OUCH!!


Pablito <>
Sellin' ma' soul for BIG BOOLETS... in the politically confused, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 11:46:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone else notice that Jesse Jackson's kid was elected twice in Cook County using these same 'butterfly' ballots? I didn't notice him complaining then!
Seth <>
USA (is it still?) - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:11:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
A view of how Gore thinks and how he would rule:

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:18:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


C-H dies are good, we use the Hornady New Dimension 50BMG dies at work for tinkering around. They are almost as good as the C-H. Key word -ALMOST. But still good dies, $250 for a set of them.
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone here tried out the Tango series from Tac Op? What do you think? Email me if you want, no reason to waste space here. Thanks.
Seth <>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 13:32:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Couple of years ago, right after the Somalia debacle, they were talking about reintroducing the 106 into the inventory. Ammo wasn't a problem as we have several hundred thousand rounds over in Korea. The 106 with HEP would have been an excellent doorknocker for MOUT, and it's lots cheaper than a TOWII. The Canadians were talking about reintroducing the 106 with a new HEAT round from Switzerland IIRC, Kevin?. However after some agitation to the good by us low level grunt types, the whole thing went away because of CRS and the fact that nobody would be making money off reintroducing an old system. Still would be an excellent item to have at the Bn level, in the weapons company. Perhaps 6 per Bn, would be some useful direct firepower to augment the 81's and TOW's. Max range was 7700m and that beats the 81's by 1200m. Of course it would really be great to put them back on the M151's and have rapid react portable artillery. This is definately one of those cases where newer doesn't mean better. Be a damn fine way to bust urban sniper hides. Nothing says goodnight like a 35lb High explosive, plastic round. Semper Fi...
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 15:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
onezero My partner at Storm used a HS rifle with their DM. It seems to be very reliable but sometimes it's hard to get the mag into the weapon. Most importantly, from my point of view, is the fact that you can't "top off" with thw mag in place.. My main gun now is a LTR w/DM..It has it's quirks but I've learned to live with it.I have taped my mag in place and remove it only for cleaning. Would I buy another one? NO WAY! Floor plate s are the way to go if you ask me.. Markwell out
seneca, WonezerV, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 15:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ref. 106mm
One of my favorite weapons. (dating myself) Firing one was like getting clobbered with a bean-bag chair. The overpressure and noise was huge.
With a laser rangefinder the weapon can still be an effective MAW.
Ammunition was/is cheap enough to train with and it could be freely employed without the command getting sticker shock.
As already mentioned the new emphasis on MOUT calls for a direct fire support weapon with punch and the 106mm sure has that. The Russians have developed a FAM (Fuel Air Mixture) explosive warhead which could be adapted and would provide building busting capabilities.
The problem with mounting the 106mm on a M151 is that the suspension has to be sprung for the payload and when the gun is off the vehicle roll-over accidents are common.
The HUMMER would make a perfect platform.
Does anybody remember the "ANTOS"? That rig was really neat. It was a track-laying nonarmored vehicle which mounted six 106mm rifles in a gang. A broadside from an ANTOS with Beehive rounds makes a great countersniper system. One need only direct the gunner to fire in a Cardinal Direction. Can you say, "Colander"?
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 17:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
I only have access to a few 100 yard ranges here in Northern VA and after a visit up to PA and shooting 200 yards this past weekend, I have an ever deepening urge to shoot some real distance and practice my ranging and wind reading skills, or lack therof. Anybody know of a place in the NOVA Area? I'd even be willing to drive an hour or two into lower PA or West By Gawd Virginia. Thanks.
Ryan <>
Ashburn, VA, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 18:07:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Didn't think the 106MM comments would get the reaction it did. Just means most of the crew knows good shit!

Kevin and Ken. The Marines fielded ONTOS. I believe our version had four tubes on it. Army had one with six. My understanding was that if you fired them all at once you cracked the turret welds! Other problem was you had to get our to reload...

I don't know about a Recoiless Rifle in a MOUT environment. Backblast would be a substantial problem to surrounding structures and troops.Not to mention some of the huts we find probably wouldn't detonate the warhead. How 'bout a MK19 40MM...? Should do a fairly credible job.

US fielded Recoiless Rifles in 57/90/106MM. The first two were shoulder fires. I can see the 57, but a 90MM...? Hope you have JO-JO the Apeman in you Platoon...

'lito, I must be an old fart. I know what "you know what" AND "you know where" mean...;-)
The younger guys don't need to know...,but if they get around Hoppe's wimmen will find out!

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes: When they found that Jo-Jo was the only guy there who could figure out how to work a compass, he changed jobs.

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:38:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

All the regulars probably already know this,but if anyone out there is thinking about buying a Bushnell Elite scope for a non-tactical application,DON'T DO IT !

They have a lifetime warranty that covers anything except failures,

apparently.Save your money and buy the Loopy.

Just got off the phone with them,and after they lost the d### scope

for three weeks,when they found it the verdict was
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:39:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. 90mm

My very first job in the Infantry was as a "90-Gunner". I walked into the barracks with my AWOL bag and somebody yelled, "Hey everybody! Come meet the new 90-gunner!" I carried it for about three months until I got promoted to "60-Gunner". Never met Jo-Jo.

I got to "expend all remaining ammunition" on a 90mm range once. By the time I was finished I tried to stand up and I couldn't get my ballance. It's a gun that kills at both ends and the blast is hard on the gunner too.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 21:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Must have jumped the gun!Back to Bushnell's"warranty"The verdict was that the main tube was bent,and for the low,low price of 230.00 they would send me a comparable replacement.I could buy off on that,if I hadn't checked it all out with dial indicator & v blocks before I sent it in.Buy Leupold !
Off to the dungeon to grumble....
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 21:46:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Wes, you mentioned a post by Kush about a Tac-Ord short .50..... I went back but couldn't find it. Anyhoo, I recently finished a batch of 4,000 cases for a guy, making short .50's out of shiny new .338 Lapua Magnums. We used Norma cases, cut them off and ground them to length, put them on a teeny little purpose-built expanding chuck, and OD ground a shoulder on. He has an order from some outfit for three rifles with cans. I have not seen them but I'm pretty sure they're made on AI's. Says they're shooting very well out to way past where I'da thought a subsonic .50 was kissin' Mother Earth already. Bet these are quiet even without the can!
Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 21:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have not had any problem with my Elite 4000 6X24, I have not had any problem with my Tasco SS10X42M either. I don't know what the original problem with the scope was that caused you to send it back in the first place but here are my thoughts. If you did check out the scope as you indicated I would tell them that and have them ship you a new scope as they evidently found the wrong one or they were the source of the bent tube, either way they should owe you a scope. That's my 2 cents.
Byron <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 22:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


The 50cal AMAX's you want to get are the 2.560" ones. The 1st gen ones are .250" longer and won't stabilize no matter what you do. If you order sight unseen, make sure of the length.

The HTI book went out today to you. Brass will go Monday.

Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 23:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks Dude... I owe you a bunch.
Do you prefer Bravo Brew, or Beaver Lite? ;)) I'd fix you up with my sister, but she's dog ugly, and nasty to boot!

I'm gonna spend the winter makin' ammo so when the toy gets here, I'll be ready to shoot in!


Pablito <condor@mags.ney>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 00:19:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, I'm getting sick and tired of carrying around and using my rifle case as a shooting mat. In one hand a rifle and in the other a shooting mat, gimme a break.

I need some new recommendations here, I've got a set knee/elbow pads coming "Monica specials" that will take care of those two parts of my body just fine. That done, my concern is shifting towards something for the rest of my body that will put an extra layer between me and the foxtails and stickers. Was thinking of something like a burlap or codura apron to act as collect all and atleast take out a percentage of those damn things. Codura or Burlap might not even suffice and something like a piece of tanned leather from a welders apron or something, don't want to spend too much though.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what materials they prefer or how to go about making something like this? Thinking about calling it my set of "Squirrel Chaps." Hmmm, just had a thought, perhaps I could make it out of tanned squirrel hides? Nevermind, that's too close to wearing a necklace of squirrel ears.

Feel free to email me or reply here, I'll check back later this evening and tomorrow.

B. Douglas <>
I can just hear those damn squirrels laughing at me in Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 00:21:23 (ZULU) (your host address:



My new neck size bushings arrived from Redding today. For those interested, I should have some more data and 600 yard accuracy tests in the next couple weeks.

Anything in particular you gents want to know?

Seems like I "got smaller" than 106 MM all of a sudden. Know what I can do with the extra 99.5 MM?

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 02:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Been casually looking for a rugged, cheap shooting coat for a while and have come up dry.
Im looking for something similar to what we used in the Corps. Padding on the elbows, and thick so it will last forever. (i think mine was twice my age)
I cama across a site and wanted any feedback if anyone has tried the compititon shooting coat.
It looks nice and tough, but you never know...

I went to buy a pistola and three days later i am still amazed that even the F*ng gun shop made me feel like a damn criminal.
the conversation went something like this...
"why do you want to buy a semi auto? what do you need more than 6 shots for?"

I want to use it for plinking, target shooting and the like, dont really like revolvers. Plus i really like the fit of the HK, really comfy to shoot.

"Plinking? there is no good reason you need a full clip of 10. when you are target shooting all you need is 6 at the most. otherwise you will just be wasting bullets. do you have a criminal record?"

A criminal record? No.

"well there is no reason you need a semi auto for target shooting"

Look, do you want to make a $750 sale, or not?

"fine, i will start the background check, but there will be a 20% restocking fee if something comes up you havent told me."

You know what, nevermind. You sell all the revolvers you want and i will buy my semi auto somewhere else.
fucking jackass. Im getting all pissed off just thinking about it.
"you have a criminal record"....not yet. i will after i leap across this counter though, asshole.
The funny part is, this is the same place i bought my 700 with synthetic stock and heavy barrel.
just goes to show you, there are a-holes everywhere you go. Oh well, screw them, i will spend my money elsewhere.
I will have my new toy on the 24th after the 11 day wait. only 9 more days...
Jeffro <>
San Jo, ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:00:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Whoops, like an idiot, i forgot the link.
jeffro <>
San Jo, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:01:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
I dont know wht that last link does not work for the shooting coat, but this one does... i think
Idiot <>
i dont know, im stupid, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:05:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
'Lito and Sir Wes: You're good to go on the Hoppes, but here's a true story. I was rather good buddies with an armorer, met him through my girlfriend. Her room-mate was going out with him. Of course, being an armorer, he always smelled like LSA. She thought it was an odd cologne! Anyway, he got sent to play in the sandbox, and she sent him a "dear John" letter so she could go out with some non-reg huge mental midget. Moral of the story? Hoppes good. LSA bad. HA! But my wifie thinks Hoppes is bad too, it's not allowed upstairs :-(
Brewmaster Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
Bunker down, the ride could get bumpy, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:39:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can't tell you how many times I've thought about a woman who wore a dab of "love potion number 9", in my day dreams I always happen upon her like some kind of backwoods goddess in her cutoffs, exposing her navel, and shooting squirrels from insane distances with something rediculous like a 22Cheeta. And as I approach her from downwind I catch a hint of Hoppes No.9 on the breeze and know that it isn't coming from the rifle, rather it is her perfume of choice. At that moment I realize I'm hearing weddin bells.

Anyhow, I can pick up that aroma no matter how faint, I tend to put a generous amount of it through my bores after shooting and then come back to it later. It isn't an obnoxious smell at all. Some of those amonia laced solvents I have though are just down right disturbing. I'll use the amonia stuff to clear out the jacket material from my stainless JP barrel but I make damn certain that I don't intermix solvents, I jag the holy hell out of the barrel to remove any hint of the stuff from the bore before proceeding on to another cleaner. I usually do Hoppes for powder solvents till those come out clean, then I dry the bore really well and move to Barnes CR10 till they come out clean and dry the bore again, then I'll typically put a light coat of Hoppes in the bore the day after.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 04:05:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hoppes perfume, Algore is makin you guys know that?
Kiddie's don't even think of anything but *WD 40 behind your ears. Repeat don't try that other stuff at home....It's really wierd around here! I never go into a senior's bar with anything but WD40. It helps their Arthritis too. She'll love you for it.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 05:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

please make me feel better, I think I made a mistake !

For some reason I put my .50 Mc Millan M-88 into a for sale ad for some pistols I am selling. I am getting call´s every day, and my S-3 (read wife) is on me to sell the ugly thing.

It´s a "Seal" version M-88, with Parker Hale bipod, Leupold MKIV Ultra in 20 X with the glass etched Mil Dot reticle. Comes with a pelican case, and I am close to selling it for the equivalent of $ 4.850,--.

The rifle is 7 years old and has 470 rounds through it, which show´s you how often I get to shoot it.

Please release me from my pains !

torsten <>
cant make up my mind, to be or not to be, with a .50 in g3land - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 08:26:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scott wrote a lengthy article about DM´s. I agree in general with his KISS approach. Still I have a few comments.

In general after market add-on magazines are not a good idea because you have two manufacturers which have their own manufacturing tolerances etc. Still a good manufacturer should be able to produce a magazine fed rifle without any problems. In LEO environment only a few shots are shot in any operation so DM´s are not needed and they usually only increase the price tag without any relevant gains in other areas.

For military Scott told to get arty if many shots are needed. This is nice and dandy for USMC snipers and maybe others in the US forces who are allowed to call arty. In most other armies the snipers do not have arty or airforce strike options available due to their different status in the battle area. Those snipers may need a lot of personal firepower at times. Of course an assault rifle is better but usually you only carry your bolt action rifle and maybe a pistol. In those situations DM´s are very handy even though snipers should stay away from trouble.

BTW Sako 75 with DM´s CAN be topped at any time through the ejection port. I think this is a first but in this case you can have both a DM and top-up option at the same time. You can have a fixed floor plate too if you insist on having that.

I like DM´s but then again I am used to rifles where the mags work as they are supposed to work. Maybe some add-on´s for Rem700 are not so good.

Hexa <>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 09:08:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys
sorry for the off topic post but I got sent this today (from the Queen apparently!)and thought it might raise a smile...or your blood pressure! (Bravo, maybe you should skip over this :) )

To the citizens of the United States of America,
In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence,
effective today.
Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties over
states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does
fancy. Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85%
you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your
will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections.
Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be
next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules
introduced with immediate effect:
1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.
look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at
how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your
vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same
seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is
unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed".
2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know
on your behalf.
3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents.
really isn't that hard.
4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as
the good guys.
5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The
but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get
and give up half way through.
6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind
football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game.
The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders
have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer
allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it
would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those
you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar
American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty
seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to
together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005.
7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons
they give you any merde. The 98.85% of you who were not aware that there is
world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The Russians have
never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for "shit".
8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 8th will be a new
national holiday, but only in England. It will be called
"Indecisive Day".
9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for
your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand
what we mean.
10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Mark D <>
London, UK - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 09:54:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

QUEENIE; be careful what you wish for. We might have a few states you can just have. How about you take the original 13 and stick em' where the fog don't go. We have a few others we like to stick you with too. How about one big nice one where there's lots of sun and beach. It has a Golden Gate I hear. We have others too... Don't mess with Texas though we'll turn your garden into a vast waste land if you go there. We got some with Lake Front property that'll go nice with your other colony to the north there. Stay away from our "Amber waves of Grain". And it you hear someone say ya'll, your in the wrong place.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 12:34:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was stationed in Panama from 87-91 and our battalion traded their Dragons/Tows for 90mm RR for a couple reasons. First, wire guided systmes don't work out too well in the jungle and because we knew there would be fighting in a MOUT environment.

The Panamanian Defense Forces (PDF) had hardened their positions in the city with steel reinforced walls, heavy sandbagging inside (not visible from the outside mind you) and fighting positions with steel/concrete overhead cover. They also had some armor similar to LAVs.

The 90mms were extremely effective in the city. They were simple, effective, versatile and another big benefit was that you could carry ammo for it alot more easily that with a dragon. M203s obviously were a tremendous asset in MOUT.

In short, I think they are a great system which should never be scrapped.
Jeff <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 13:10:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff: I heard that our forces used the 90 during the Panama invasion against snipers. That was in the major media, so the use of the word 'sniper' may have been a little sloppy. The reporter marveled at our "precision bombing" when the soldier hit a wall from 100 or so yards. That's hard to call precision, but it's probably more precision than most reporters are used to.

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 13:21:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill R,
Careful now! Some of us Virginians have not lost our fight! We even elected a Rep. Senator this time! Beside, I hate fish- don't care if it does come with chips...
Bill Moore <>
Hangin' in,, Ole Virginny, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 14:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
WTF, Firstly We are a sovereign nation. The Queen maybe be our head of state, but we elect our clowns ourselves.
Bill - you think we want the lakefront?? And as far as Ca. goes they got worse gun laws than we do.
Kevin <>
CANADA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 15:32:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Voter fraud link:

CDC' <>
Not as stupid as Gorewinkle thinks in the, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 15:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mark D.,

I suggest if you wish to annex the US, please consult this map.

We will allow you to take all of the people responsible for that repugnant blue color seen in certain counties.
Submit a viable plan for prying the occupants mouths off the "teat" of the land and you can have them, lock, stock and barrel.

I propose a $5 (US dollar), one time, restocking fee to support your efforts to collect your wayward children.

OH, as for football... have you ever played "sand-lot football" we don't wear no 'stinking' pads. You should come over here and try it, perhaps you'll learn something (a lesson, for sure). I personally liked you English types better when you were known for "quiet desperation". This new whiny, smarmy tone has got to go. (I'm kidding , of course)
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 16:14:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

DNC "gathering information" on Bush electors. As a public service, no doubt.

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 18:47:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mark of the Empire: I enjoy a good joke as much as the next guy. And actually I've been saying "al-you-minnie-yum" for a long time now. Favorite beer is 80 shilling from Edinborough. Heck, I'll even give you guys 20% credit for the Shelby Cobra. But at the LeMans this year, it wasn't the American cars that were leaving the tracks, it was the German cars that "flew" in a bad way. Good mechanicals in a not-so-good design. And I'll take my arms laws here in the socialist democracy of, as reno put it, "federalist" Amerika over yours, at least for the time being. Yeah, when you have any person in that office talking about the federalist this or that, it's time to worry.

There's a great article you to pass on to those who are prone to inaction, or those who are prone to lots of verbal action and that's it. This guy makes a great statement and has good logic to back it up.

Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly the great country, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 18:51:42 (ZULU) (your host address:


I never heard about the 90 on snipers and suspect as you mention, the press probably pegged a guy taking potshots with an assault rifle a sniper. He must not have been that great a sniper if he was spotted that easily, but you never know.

We had studied PDF Order of Battle very hard and I don't recall seeing any sniper programs worth mentioning.

One thing was for sure, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, but our sniper program was top notch in the Battalion and it paid its way a thousand times over, both during the invasion and the countless operations that went on for the year or so prior to it and afterwards.

Everyone knew it too. Want to talk about an excellent return on a small investment, the BN Scout/Snipers were it.

And within a 6 months after all the operations ended, this outstanding unit of well trained guys was disbanded.

Absolutely unbelieveable. But then again, you were obviously in at one time so you know how those things happen.

What unit were you in anyway if you don't mind my asking?

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 19:37:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

MARK.... Our scientists have reassembled Guy Fawkes and brought him
back to life. We have disguised him as a Rasta-man and sent him to
London, where upon hearing the word "punter" he will carry out his
task at Parliament, but only when Bill's friend Tony is present. We
thought that he would melt right into the crowds in his "London Ghille

On this side of the pond Soccer is played by 'girly-boys' who lack
the fortitude to play real Football, and whose mommies carry them
to their games in mini-vans. Our Football-players drive American
cars and pickup-trucks with 5-liter+ V-8 engines that get 12mpg
and use British cars as hockey-pucks.

And while I'm on the subject of automobiles, why did you compare
our's to German vehicles? Why didn't you compare them to British
autos? Could it be that there are none left? Ah... but I remember
the Sunbeam, Vauxhall Victor, Morris, to name but a few. And how
about Joseph Lucas, the Prince of Darkness.

Mark- please take this as the jest it is meant to be! I own two
German cars- a 16V GLI and a completely restored 1969 Type1, and
love them both, but my real pride-and-joy is my new Dodge Dakota
5.9 R/T pickup. BTW- I have nothing against the English (except
their food and Labour Party)- my mother was born in Stokes-Newington.

Can an air-gun reach 5000 miles?

PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 20:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: I am not convinced that Gore actually garnered majorities in a number of cities on that map. He almost certainly stole many of them. So, if you want to hand Gore a huge propaganda victory plus support he wouldn't otherwise enjoy, scare the city-dwellers. The rabble will embrace Ceasar as a savior. We lose The Republic. Happens every time. "War In The Shadows: The Guerilla In History", by Robert Asprey has lots of examples.

The institutions are under stress, but they have yet to fail. They must be allowed to work. This mess looks like its headed to the Supreme Court. If it does, my guess is that the Supremes will drop-kick Gore's ass into next week. If Bush gets in he's going to be mightily pissed. His legal reform agenda will disempower the trial lawyers who tried to usurp his presidency. Many things are yet to happen before worst-case scenarios are realized.

God willing, all this will blow over. Then we will make incremental improvements in the system.

One of the generals who commented on Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" stated; "Weapons are tools of ill omen. One is concerned lest they are used without due consideration." That man thought at his pay grade.

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 20:28:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, this IS NOT related to the presidential election :)
I have a Simmons (yeah i know they aren't that good!) PRO 50 rifle scope, and I can't seem to find a sun shade that will thread correctly! I'm don't know if even Simmons makes one... i still havne't gotten a reply from them.
Any way, it is 50mm and I would like one about 3-5" long.

I am useing this scope on my APS-2 SV airsoft rifle. This thing is awesome!

Thanks for your time!
Shrubba <>
MN, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 21:50:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: D&L Sports Sniper Shoot

Would anyone out there care to share an opinion on the annual shooting competition held out west by D&L Sports. What's it like? Is it good to go? Is it well organized and run? Would you go again? etc.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 22:58:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeffrio and Shoorting Jackets:

Try Creedmore Sports. They sell a heavy canvas jacket for about $90 that works very well. It's what I shot in competition for several years and it is definatly the most cost-effective solution. Its a good bit heaver and more rigid than the USMC, jacket, BTW.
Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 23:05:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeffrio and Shoorting Jackets:

Try Creedmore Sports. They sell a heavy canvas jacket for about $90 that works very well. It's what I shot in competition for several years and it is definatly the most cost-effective solution. Its a good bit heaver and more rigid than the USMC, jacket, BTW.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 23:05:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


WHEW, got that off my chest.

Mark D., good thing I thought your post was a joke.

I need a Bravo Brew, make that a keg!

Bolt, out
Bolt <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:00:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK guys Old Sarge is back! PLEASE NOTICE THE NEW E-mail address and change your address books accordingly.
GOD it's good to be back!!!

Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:12:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just wanted to let everyone know that I will be offering a 30% discount on any size Starlight Case until Dec. 20th. Call me at the plant, mention SniperCountry and pay only $139.99 for the absolute best case made in the world!! Don't let the cost fool you, these puppies are of the highest quality. Just want to be sure you give your investments maximum protection at a low cost.

Brack Wilson <>
Pine Level, NC, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Endgame 1:

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:16:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim Mitchell -

"Teat?" "TEAT?" You calling the great state of Florida a "TEAT?" Actually, if anybody's mouths are stuck to anything down here, it's Algwhore's ass. HA!

Hoppes #9 -

OK, I gotta know for sure, the weekend's coming up and I want to be prepared -

Hoppes #9 Powder Solvent or Hoppes #9 Bench Rest?

Moe Mensale <>
PALM TEAT COUNTY, FL, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:18:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

welcome back Sarge!!!!!!!!
Brack Wilson <>
Pine Level, NC, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Endgame 2:

So read those carefully before getting any good ideas. The institutions will almost certainly hold. Have a little faith in the Founders.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address:


Straight #9, and you'll follow her anywhere!


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: I've got all the faith in the world in certain things. Unfortunately, a couple of things I live by are "never underestimate your enemy" and "never do an enemy a minor injustice". I'm sure you know the origins of both of those. I'm also sure that you know just how intelligent our opposition is. I won't gamble three spent casings (berdan primed even!) on the supreme court. Year after year they REFUSE to hear cases that would turn the country around in short order. To expect them to stand up now I think would be ill-advised. Besides, they're now into legislation through the judiciary. This situation doesn't remind me so much of Caesar as Hitler's ride through Austria. If algor userps this, they will throw roses at him too on his ride through the center of Yankee Central. Of course, this isn't anything that Calhoun didn't EXACTLY tell us was unavoidable if we followed the course we did. He was only the secretary of war, among other things, and thought QUITE at his pay grade also. You note what his answer was.

Welcome back Sarge! Hope everything is good in your new home. We gonna play "find Sarge" again? ;-)

Brack: I've got a bone to pick with you. My case is GREAT, and I love it, but I've come to the conclusion it's cursed. Every time I case up the rifle, the weather is nasty. Can you do some good mojo on it to relieve my problems? You got some mojo in desert camo? HA!

And when I got home, I had a half case of Federal Gold Medal Match brass on my doorstep! Thanks Masked Stranger! I *REALLY* appreciate it! Now to load that stuff up with some Varget. A true asset to the good guys, an another roll of tumms for the neo-commies out there!
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
Gonna tumble brass, and drink a Bravo Brew, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:25:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sun Tzu and Machiavelli in that order. Gore has to do a bunch of complicated things very quickly. If you want to help him, go do something rash.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:34:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was looking at buying a McMillian Tactical Rifle, with an A3 stock in 308. I was wondering if it was worth the money and would like any opinions on quality. Haven't seen any mentioned in your reviews and was wondering why. Any information appreciated.
M. Sargent <>
Wey., MA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:43:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
I was looking at buying a McMillian Tactical Rifle, with an A3 stock in 308. I was wondering if it was worth the money and would like any opinions on quality. Haven't seen any mentioned in your reviews and was wondering why. Any information appreciated.
M. Sargent <>
Wey., MA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:45:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
CHAD, CHAD MY ASS! I can't take it anymore. No mas, no mas. Stop the insanity!

The word "chad" should be removed from the dictionary. The country of Chad should have its name changed. All people with the name Chad or Chadwick should immediately have their names changed. If it wasn't for chads, this mess would be over. A hanging chad should be called a dingleberry, a pregnant chad should be called an accident, a chad on the floor should be called BALLOT TAMPERING. Find a better way, put the ballots out about a 1000 meters and if the idiots can hit it 1 out of a hundred shots, count it. That's as fair as what is going on now. Geeezzzzzz.


Thank you and have a nice day.

Bolt, out!

Bolt <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:51:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:53:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bolt <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Is it Aw better now ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 02:05:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

hello to all ,i need some help on two rifle,im looking at m91/30 sniper rifle made around 43-44 mint all the way and the orther rifle is the romanian romak3 dragunov sniper rifle booth are under 900$so guy can you help the this woman to pick
teri w <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 02:29:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
DANCIN DUBYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click on where myname is supposed to be and see if the link works. This is a hoot. Go DUBYA!!!!!!!!!

Felling mean as a wolverine with aids, BOLT, out!

PS: if is doesn't work, heres the address ( <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 02:50:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I looked thru the old posts - can't find this one.

I have my Dad's old Rem 722, I believe identical to present short action 700. It extracts some of the cartridges all of the time and all of the catridges some of the time but not all of the cartridges all of the time. I've cleaned bolt and chamber with lots of eau de WD-40.

Any comments??

Bob <>
Beckley , West-By God-Virginia, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 03:51:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

More Hoppes' comments:

Yup, agree with 'lito. The regular #9 is the way to go...personally, it wasn't the dab behind the ears that got was the faint trail of scent run down between the breasts...

On the other hand the old G.I Bore Cleaner with Benzine worked pretty well on me, too...

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 05:09:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bob: WD40 and guns don't mix.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 05:13:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

.50 Cal Press,

I am thinking of getting a .50 BMG press,which is the better,the RCBS model or the new Hornady model,was looking at using it for large dies,ie benchrest type .338LM dies as well as .50BMG.

Chris <>
New Zealand - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 10:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address:


CDC was being polite... WD-40 is VERY BAD for guns... the solvent dries and leaves a brown stickie residue that will gum up your favorite stick... wash it out with mineral spirites, or laquer thinner, and then use a good gun oil!


I just ordered a 50 BMG, so I'm getting up to speed on this stuff, but I can yell you this much (after eleventeen thousand dollars in phone bills)... the Hornady press is made by RCBS, and is almost identical, except that the Hornady has a nifty-er (read "improved") way of doing the shell holder conversion, if going back and forth between 1.5x12 and 7/8x14 is important to you.
Send an e-mail to "On Target Shooting Supplies" at:

His prices are less than anybodies (I checked), and the stuff gets dropped shipped right from Hornady... and better yet, he's a "Rosterfairian"... 'course shipping to a "Kiwi" could get steep.

Bad puppy ;))


Pablito <>
Still bummed on the Fla thing, in, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 11:22:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Good evening, my dear. I must say, you look positively enchanting! May I show you my GI Bore Cleaner?"

Moe Mensale <>
gettin ready for the weekend with hoppes #9, FL, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 11:25:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

I forgot your first question...
>>"It extracts some of the cartridges all of the time and all of the catridges some of the time but not all of the cartridges all of the time."<<

This is a common problem, and Remingtons have were critized for this "back when"... it's because the early extractor clip-ring was poorly designed, and wore out fairly qiuickly... it needs replacing.

Your gun uses the older "rivet" type, and a 'smith should charge about $25-30 to replace it. The replacements are better designed, and won't need replacing 'till nearly forever.


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 11:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


Hey all this talk about romance and Hoppes! And all this time I thought is was spelled with an ER instead of an O.

Geez, number 9? Must me somekind of new strain.

As my unit 1SG always said "Men, be safe, use the appropriate MOPP level" (as they handed out the condoms for the weekend)

MOPP stands for "Mission Oriented Protective Posture" and it seemed pretty appropriate to me.

OK, I feel better now. I just had to say it.

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 12:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

There was a link posted on this board on which it was advocated that people who support our electorial process blockade the cities.

Think about that for a second. Clinton divide us against ourselves. Its how he governs.

His propaganda machine is currently selling the notion that all the Bush areas contain majority populations who want to brain innocent people with hammers and base-ball bats or drag them behind their trucks.

If you blockade the cities, you have lost most rural people (starting with me) and made the city dwellers see you as someone to be treated as an enemy. That will include some of the guys on this board. You will be hung around the Republican's neck. In one bold stroke you will have reduced supporters of the Constitutional processes of the transfer of power to a fringe cult.

"God save me from my friends, I'll take care of my enemies myself."__ Patton

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 12:56:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bob, does the bolt come back without a cartridge or does it stick closed? Lito is right if it's coming back without a cartridge it needs what he said..
CDC; I hope your optimism is rewarded.... I dunno if there is an answer to this one.

Boltster; there ... there... Blaming Chad is like blaming a spoon for Rosie O'donnel.

God help us all.... Locked and loaded here in paradise. over and out!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:02:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was under the impression that Unertl did not have the contract for the USMC sniper program. I thought that US Optics built the scope for the M40A1 system.
M. S. Laird <>
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:33:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
I was doing a search to try and find some info on the Remington 870, when I found That linked me to The Duty Roster. I looked through Hot Tips and Cold Shots, but couldn't find a category for shotguns. Looking for a shotgun for both my wife and I for home defense. Prefer reliability,
and the shortest legal barrel for civilian use for maneuverability around corners in the home. Also, one that shoots a load that will allow me to recover quickly, if we need to make subsequent shots. Trying to decide if we should buy an 870 that is already modified (worth the extra expense?), or an off the shelf 870?? If there is reasonably priced modified 870, would appreciate distributor names and phone numbers. Also, does anyone know of any problems with accidental discharges of the 870 with the safety on?? If these subjects have already been addressed, I apologize in advance. Please give me the link for that discussion. If my question can best be answered on another discussion group, please give me that link. I'm a NEWBIE to shotguns. Would appreciate an email, in addition to posting your response. I live in Pennsylvania. Thanks.
Richard <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
I was going to answer you off line but thought others may want to know about the D&L shoot also.

First off its very well run and organized. Dave is a great and has some very fine range officers. He runs a strict and SAFE shoot.

Its a three day shoot that takes place about 45 miles north of Gillette Wyoming up near the Montana border. Its billed as the, "Test for both man and equiptment" and I think it is too(HA) The shoot is broken down into field courses and standards shooting. The first two days of shooting are the field courses.

You shoot two courses each day at two different locations. The elevation is around 4700ft. and the temperature is usually in the high 90s to 100s. You can use what ever you want to bring but you must be able to carry it with you to use it. The country is on the rugged side and the courses average a couple of miles in length.

The last two years you shot with a partner, one man shoots the long range targets and the other shoots the short range targets and pistol targets. The assult rifle targets are from 200 to 350yds and the long range targets are from 350 to 1200yds.

The course stress long range "FIRST" round hits. The target size is from 6" square dimonds to 14"x14" steel plates. There are also some 7"x14" plates hung both length way and side ways. As the range increases these become extremly difficult to hit in less than ideal coditions. Oh, did I mention the scoring....10 points per plate hit and a -20 points for each plate you miss!!!! You shoot twice and miss your down -40 points plus the 10 you didn't get for hitting it in the first place.

Two years ago on the first course we shot, it had rained the night before, and we couldn't tell where we were hitting and I missed targets I should have hit and we came off the course with 44 hits and 20 misses for a grand total of 40 points for the course!!! Many guys come off of the courses with a minus score!!

The third day is spent at his range and you shoot man on man competitions and off hand, kneeling and known distance shooting drills that stess speed and accuracy. Theres also a mover and then an egg shoot at 500yds.

He has had a bunch of complaints about it being to "Tough" and has considered breaking it into two divisions civilian and military to try to get more shooters. He would leave it the way it is for the military and lighten it up for the civilians. He's not sure what he will do at this point.

I have heard he is going to have a really big shoot next year and try to draw some more international shooters. The last two years it was won by a pair of professional shooters, Bennie Cooley and Michael Voigt. But the competition is always tough and hard fought down to the last day with less than a hunderd points seperating some of the top teams.

Its a tough shoot,but a lot of fun,you have know your equiptment and your gun. You shoot in all types of conditions. Up hill,down hill across canyons, up canyons, across big flats in all types of wind. You may have a "0" wind to a 20 mph wind on the same damn course!! It may be full value to half value on the same set of targets depending on the angle your shooting. It may bein your face through part of the course and behind you or tothe left or right on the next set of targets. Did I also mention that a lot of times your range finders won't work because of the range or terrain?? So you need your Mil-Dot master too, thank GOD for Bruce!!!

There is no stalking just shooting, each year the competition has gotten tougher and the ones who come, come to shoot and you meet some really nice guys both military and civilan who are always willing to help you out with what ever you need. I really enjoy it,but it is a ball buster if you aren't in shape. I hurt a knee this year and didn't get into as good of shape as I was in the past and I could really tell it. But then I'm 54 years old too and I can still do it so I'm sure you would have no trouble with it. Come on out next year and if you need any more in depth info please e.mail me!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:51:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

First good news this week...

The Florida Circurt Court has said that the Tuesday, 5:00 PM vote "S-T-A-N-D-S", and no hand counted, or late (read "chad challanged") votes will be accepted... (see Gore pout :-(((

... if we get the mail in vote, we OWN it! (Unless the creek rises)

'yote Bate...

Loved "... is like blaming a spoon for Rosie O'donnel"... great line to explain a PIG!


Pablito <>
Startin'to smile ;), in the good ol', USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


In the Denver comPost this morning, it looks like prairie dog hunting on public land will be outlawed next year. However, poisoning is OK .........

Duman <>
Tree-Huggin', Colorado, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

One point to add to 'lito's comment. Gore is going to appeal this decision. The judge that made the ruling is fairly low on the totem pole and this will make it to the Florida Supreme Court for sure, and possibly the U.S. Supreme Court. I do think that the judge got us going in the right direction.

Be prepared to celebrate, but remember one of the most important virtues of sniping, patience.

The Shooter <>
We got it right 6 years ago, God Bless TX, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pat: D&L Shoot:

If he does break it into 2 'divisions' of shooters... hopefully he will allow civies to 'opt into' the more challenging shoot. I guess he could all them:

Candy Assed Class
Hard Assed Class

Enjoy Gents.... gotta get outa here and back to work!

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:27:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablo: And these mailbags have been watched over by the Vestal Virgins at the postal service? And Israel does not have dated postmarks.

Ken: Candy assed class? How about old and broken down class?

On the 870 question: Search 870 in December of last year. A note on safetys: Don't trust ANY of them. Use the four rules everywhere and at all times. If you don't know the four rules, take SERIOUS training.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 18:00:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anybody have any experience with HS Precision's line of take-down rifles? They look interesting, but I don't know if they have what it takes for long-distance shooting.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 18:17:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gents, ( advisedly!).
Seems like the calorically challenged lady is about to sing, or does it?.
In my understanding the Fla supreme court can issue whatever order they may, and it will only stall the process.
They have no real jurisdiction over the electoral process in the state.
There are only three ways the hand counts can count.
Natural disaster, voter fraud, Machine failure. PERIOD, end of story.
The main problem unless Gore concedes( dreaming!), is the Dem's buying, or blackmailing electors in any of the 24 states that do not require their electors to vote for the party, they reresent.
Which, by the way, we all know is NOT beneath these cretans.
So, be happy for now, but it ain't over til it's over.............
Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 18:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ref. 870 Shotguns

If you chose to build or buy a social shotgun you cannot go wrong with the Remington 870.

Don't forget the choke part. e-mail me for details.

Ask yourself why though. What can any shotgun do better than a .223 carbine? Door breaching maybe. Otherwise what's a tactical shotgun for?

A shotgun kicks harder, loads slower, has less range, has less penetration, has lower magazine capacity and is heavier than a shorty AR.

My opinion is; Hunt with a shotgun fight with a rifle.

Then again, you know what they say about opinions.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 19:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rant mode activated

CDC: I don't know what to make of you. I really don't. First off, it was me that posted the link. Call it like it is, I'm proud of my actions or I wouldn't perform them. I thought about it for well longer than a second. The problem isn't with the devision, it's what the devision IS. It's the party of "support me, I tell you you have to!" or the "self sufficient" victimized crowd, that Calhoun wrote about so eloquently. So you don't want to take action. That's fine, I can understand that. About 85% of the people didn't think the US was worth fighting over in the revolutionary war either. You tell us to have faith in the system, but the system SHOULD HAVE NO FAITH IN US. You got that right. The system (as explained by Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison, as they spring to mind) was founded with the idea of PARTICIPATION. Gee. I wonder what THEY would do in our place right now. Probably nothing, right? Maybe preach to the choir some, maybe grumble and gripe, then pay their yearly tax tithe to the federalist state while hoping they aren't the next to die or be ruined? They didn't create a machine that would work perfectly regardless of the scum introduced into it. They knew that. They wrote about that. They told us what to watch out for. They DOCUMENTED it. So now that exactly the same things they warned about have come to bear, I hear you admonishing action, and telling me to trust the same government that has perpetuated attrocities on the citizenry and violating our rights and the Constitution almost literally on a daily basis. But I also hear you saying you don't trust it (the vote scams, post office, etc). So what gives? Should I sit on my couch and re-read Voltare, or just make lots of "pro-peace, please let me use my rights, but if you don't want to it's all right" stuff? I think you KNOW what Jefferson said was *REQUIRED* in this situation. Those guys thought WAY ABOVE their paygrade (Franklin was regarded as the smartest man in the known world at that time), and deserve to be listened to. Or at least, they deserve to have their teachings broadcast without hinderance. That is, only if you believe in the country as it was formed more than the communist manefesto. But I will make this offer. Since you and I apparently will not ever see eye to eye, I'm willing to go back into apolitical mode, if you do too. Unfortunately, I don't have the fortitude to withstand what I see without response. Consider it a character flaw. Oh, and as for Patton, we were his favorites. Had something to do with Hourah, Whoop! and being a school with live arty classes.

Patrick Henry [3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836]: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

Samuel Adams: "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

You will, of course, have to forgive me if I take their advice over yours.

Rant mode off
Bravo - PATRIOTS USA! <>
the banana republic, about to split, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 19:35:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

hi guys... dont get off your soapboxes after the final determination for president... bacause THE REAL PANDORAS BOX IS VOTER FRAUD.

there are huge minority and ethnic immigrants of which many millions are here illegally with huge political agendas. yes we are a largely a country of immigrants, but it remains the right to vote is strictly a right of citizenship.

for example in florida all it takes to register to vote is simply "appearing to be a citizen." this is hugely open to fraud for anyone with a political agenda.

in california, which in a single state has millions of illegal immigrants adding to minority populations which are increasingly balkanizing ... they huge populations are being driven by enormous political agendas which are already siphoning off 30% of all revenues for emergency health, social safety net, and education. it is illegal for a registrar to ask for any proof of citizenship, let alone a drivers licence or even a green card (please laugh), and all that is required is a signature, followed later in a language they cant even read stating "under penalty of perjury"... wow ... big deal.

whole preceints of los angeles which contain millions of illegal minority populations submitted up to 27% by absentee ballots...this is so open to wide spread and massive fraud.. yet no one listens...

im a registered democrat, im no buchanan right winger... yet this cannot continue if we want to keep the right of citizenship to mean anything. THE RIGHT TO VOTE IS SOLELY THE RIGHT OF A CITIZEN.

if you want to just sit down and talk about dimples and pregnant chad... you lose ...everything.

christ... whatever happened to pride in proof of citizenship as a requirement to vote.

don <>
santa barbara, ca, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 19:49:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. He might start thinking he knows what's right for you."

-- Paul Williams

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: You sure told me! I didn't read all that, but I caught the tone. Crouching bootlicker. Hmmm.

God bless you Bravo, but if the good guys have friends like you.....

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:17:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

and in addendum... on my posting regarding the suspected enormity of VOTER FRAUD, im a registered democrat who voted mccain as a write in...i think the democrats are hugely corrupted on this issue, the republicans probably to a much lesser degree, and the registration process is a disaster. the elite media simply looks the other way.

before the ballots and registration talleys are destroyed, it should be demanded that statistical sampling take place to determine the extent of outright voter fraud, multiple voting, proper registration meeting basic citizenship requirement, and cleaning the registration roles of such things as "dead or nonexistent people."

voting requires us to do this thing right or it loses all meaning.
don <>
santa barbara, ca, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

That was my exact question also and he said you would be able to shoot in which ever division you wanted to shoot in. I was hoping maybe for one where I could ride a four wheeler like the range officers do!!(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:20:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Fla supreme court just blocked certification scheduled for tomorrow at noon. Will hold hearings monday...

WWWWWWWWTTTTTTTTTFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:22:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

D&L course:

One of our local rifle gurus, Steve Helsley, did an article in Tactical Shooter on his experience at D&L. Aside from the excellent description by Pat, I also recall that locating and identifying the targets was also part of the contest, since you weren't told exactly where they were.

The two-man teams were started at regular intervals (one hour?), with a range officer accompanying them to score them and keep them safe. I don't recall if completion time was part of the score, but if the team behind you caught up to you, you were disqualified.

Steve is ex-military, but he's in his 50's and has a bum knee. He retired this year. His partner, Mike Ball, is even older, I think. They went to D&L with the goal of beating at least one of the military teams. At the end of it, they had beaten all BUT one of the military teams. "Candy Ass" my ass, Ken!
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:23:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken: That may mean that the commicrats weren't able to rig the overseas ballots. This is playing out like high stakes poker.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:30:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I had the pleasure of meeting Steve and Mike at the shoot and we even shared a few beers in the evenings, they are great guys and I really admired Steve for the effort he put forth (Having to carry Mike)Ha. I would love to get and e.mail address for Steve if you have one. Thanks!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:31:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sounds like they would fit well into the Hard-Ass class!

I guess another way to look at it is - let algore get all his wrangling out now.... then if he still loses... there's no room for crying afterward... at all...

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:36:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Overseas ballots link:

If they're not tampered with, Bush wins them.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:42:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

SHOTGUN COUNTRY.... I realize that this post is a little off subject
but because I'm a defensive shotgun beginner, I need some advice.
I'm looking for a 12ga. short-barreled pump to use with light buck
loads in a home defense only role. A local store has the Remmington
Home Defender for $240 and the Winchester 1300 Defender on sale at
$200. The price difference isn't as important to me as getting the
most reliable and best quality of the two. Would someone out there
that has good knowledge of this subject give me some advice?

Why do I want a scattergun when I already have a couple of AR15's

BRAVO.... Why can't we just get along? (Sec. of State Rodney King)

Ready to go when needed.... ALAN
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 23:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address:


Let us see here; counting votes in mainly democratic counties, with mainly democratics looking at the ballots, the supreme court is mainly democrat aILL he sec of state is a republican. If it looks like shit and smells like shit, don't taste it!

Now feeling meaner that a RABID WOLVERINE WITH AIDS, BOLT over but not out!
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:28:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

I own an H&K SL7, looking to turn it into a DM rifle. Does anyone know of a source for the H&K mounts for it ?

R Gilley <>
Arlington, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:39:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Alan: if I weren't interested in "just get along", then I wouldn't have made the offer that I did. I was serious. It's not that I mind opposing opinions, I just don't like the "just trust the government, it'll be OK" business. Reminescent of the 1936 Time magazines "man of the year".

CDC: too bad you decided to skip it, there are questions I would like answered, as well as a deal to be made. I didn't call you a bootlicker either, that's your interpretation. As for the good guys, I follow in the footsteps of the founding fathers. That's good enough for me.

"They tell us, Sir, that we are weak -- unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the
next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed,
and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we
gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power." -- Patrick Henry (1736- 1799) in his famous "The War Inevitable" speech, March, 1775
the banana republic, secure in it's peace and love of life, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:46:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

I own an H&K SL7, looking to turn it into a DM rifle. Does anyone know of a source for the H&K mounts for it ? On the 106 MM:
Circa 1962, I was a small boy at a Ft. Polk Range with my Dad. He said hold your ears son. I said "that wasn't so loud daddy" He said that was the spotting round son. Whooofff Boooom Baaang and a cloud of dust as the M38A1's front wheels came of the ground and hot steel flew off of the old Tank Hulk down range. We probably gave all away to some of our "allies"

R Gilley <>
Arlington, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bipod or sand bags? Another couple of weeks and the woods will be clear of us hunters down here and it will be time to start getting serious about next years match. I don't want to start off wrong so here is the question; did most of you use bipods, tripods or sandbags last year. Currently have a bipod, building a tripod, shoot bench off of a Hoppe's rest and have sand bags.

We went over the different problems with each a couple of months ago but I can't find the stuff. I know movers and bipods don't work good unless you trap, tripods that swivel will work but thats just something else to hump. Are the bags the better option?

Humor me, trying to calm down here!

Needing a valium and a Bravo Brew, Bolt out!
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:50:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh damn...Looks like the almost all Demoncratic Supremist Court of the Peoples Republic of Floridastan is going to violate Florida Statutes.....the time for the vote counting is past, as our Sec'tary O' State knows quite well.

The Commie Bastards sre going to any lenght to get over on us.

I'm with Ken.......WTF!!!!

Let the two candidates pick winners in tomorrows game between Florida Secondrate University Criminoles (FSU) and the Florida Gators.

ah hell, Moe, you bring up some Gators from the glades, the candidate that can wrastle one of 'em to the death gets the office.
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 01:46:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo......if I understand this right come 18 December when the electorates cast thier votes either side can dispute and call for a vote in the house and determine our next President is that right? If so both sides need to let it go and fight it in Congress

Totaly Pissed the (*^^(& off with GORE and company,

John McGrath

John McGrath <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 01:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


I will offer a new set of 6 color desert camos size XL top and L/L pants to the Rosterferian that can guess the DAY/DATE that this mess is over, they call the game and a president is CONFIRMED.

Closest without going over wins. Email me with your guess by Monday, November 20 at 14:00 eastern. I will use the day/date that MSNBC announces it since that is all they will be doing until then. IF there is a tie guess, I'll use the time on the email so keep a copy of my reply for safe keeping.

Not feeling better but feeling benevolent, Bolt out!
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 01:58:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: You never heard me say, "just trust the government, it'll be OK". We are able to observe our line of defense. If it crumbles something different will happen. No one knows what that will be, but I have flashes of "The Gulag Archipeligo." It will not be a "go along to get along" situation. We all know second amendment isn't about our right to own sporting goods.

I advocate watching carefully and engaging your brain.

By the way, I read Voltaire while living in a cabin in Colorado. Didn't have a couch. Hell, didn't even have electricity. Used to cut the heads off quail with a Remington 541S with a 3X9 Zeiss. Draw a bead then whistle to get 'em to stop moving their heads. Good clean fun.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 02:06:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gent's, Hate to bring more potential bad news, but.........
Go to, and read the article about Congress getting ready for Fla electoral vote.........close enough.
Top of page , dead center.
If your weak of stomach, don't go there......
Man, what a week, I feel like I been on multiple drugs, more highs and lows than a roller coaster.....
Bolt, move over!!!!!!, you got company.....Valium!!!!!!
Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 02:35:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory -

I invented gators - Alghwore

OK, time for some levity. I have had a bitchy week.



Moe Mensale <>
Mmmmmmmmmmm! That Hoppes Smells Goooooood!, FL, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 03:01:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


That picture is totally disgusting and bordering on YUCKY! That's your senator you lucky New Yorkers. Glad she didn't pick NC!

Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 03:04:27 (ZULU) (your host address:


Hmmmmm.....(putting on Great Karnac hat)

Anyone else think this is looking more and more like the OJ trial (same late-night experts, same twists and turns and deception)?

Here's a preview of the this weekend: Lieberman loads up a White Bronco with Gore in the back in an attempt to haul the absentee ballots out of state on a slow speed police chase. Hey...don't think this isn't going to happen!

This won't be over 'till its over.

Back to the question: My guess is Jan. 5 when the electoral vote is actually confirmed by the house. Even then some last minute shenannigans can occur.

I won't be totally convinced as to the winner until Jan 20 and see who takes the oath. (Thought of Gore placing hand on Bible for oath makes me want to power vomit)

Thats my guess.


Doug <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 04:26:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

It appears that it is time to look at the company's, States, and people we do business with, it takes a great deal of money to perpetuate these assaults on the rights of a free people, it may be wise to keep the money in the family. Where will I take my winter break this year? I don't know, but I do know where I won't go. Your thoughts and recommendations, Please?
Have a nice evening, Thanks
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 05:29:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
Big Bro: I'm gonna have to pull a Jesse Helms on that one. I know what disgusting is when I see it, and that's it. Note, I have no problem with any of our "lesser citizens" going to foreign countries, I just don't want it mandated that we have to allow them return priviledges!

John: Article II, section 1 was ammended by the 12th amendment, which was then amended by the 20th. I'll make exerpts for the sake of berevity.
"The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for a President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds the states and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice." Now for the tricky part. Amendment 12 was also superseded by Amendment 20. From that we get "And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President". The interesting thing isenevt if it gets this far, (far enough for the congress to declare a president) then by law, the loser becomes the vice president. I.E. you would have a GW president - algor vice president whitehouse.

CDC: maybe I misunderstood "The institutions are under stress, but they have yet to fail. They must be allowed to work", but that sounded to me like "just trust the government, it'll be OK". Our line of defense? Oh yeah, I remember that. They violated that years ago. Nobody cared then either.

Follow the steps.

Mark Twain: "A newspaper is not just for reporting the news, it's to get people mad enough to do something about it."
Gandhi: "You may think your actions are meaningless and that they won't help, but that is no excuse, you must still act."
Thomas Jefferson, 1821: "...the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scare-crow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little to-day and a little to-morrow, and advancing it's noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one. ...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

The offer is still valid
looking for the banana republic to split, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 05:47:59 (ZULU) (your host address:


First of all I'd like to state that I'm an Irishman, not a statesman, so bear with me!!

This deconstructionist ideology many politicians and disinformed (not misinformed, these people don't wanna know) citizens have adopted the past 8 years is in full view at this spectacle in the Sunshine State. It's right in front of our eyes and no one in the press seems to have the cajones to inform 'the people' of what is taking place. Where did this country's backbone go? When did the history of how and why this great nation came into existence take it in the ass?? When did this society become all about 'me', when not too long ago it was said 'not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'??

What in the hell is the 'will of the people'?? Who's will???!!! Isn't that what the laws that these pols are stomping at the judicial level are supposed to be?? Laws voted on and passed by representatives of 'the people'. That is why we are not a true democracy. We aren't supposed to be ruled by 'the will of the people' because that just doesn't work out, mob rules is what I call it. We are a representative republic who elect officials, representatives, to represent the 'will of the people' at the township, city, county, state, and federal levels of government. They represent us, not individually, but as a whole to see that balance is held within their jurisdiction and in their respective governmental function. This isn't about the 'will of the people', it's about the 'will of Algore for President', and I will never follow his example of leadership. The Constitution doesn't mean squat to these people, I can't believe 'the people' do not understand how integral this corruption of the soul of the United States of America will affect them for the rest of their god-given lives. They are using this sacred and treasured document and life force of this country as ass wipe, and if they get away with disillusioning the American People as they have the American Press, we are in for another 1860-1865. We are screwing with states rights AGAIN, and the subjugation Florida's state laws have been, well, subjected to, will be seen in some minds as a precedent that state laws don't matter. If you don't agree with the law, sue til' ya find someone that does. That is our right to do so, but it isn't to be used in this instance, to gain power over 'the people'.

They wanna count ballots, not votes. The votes have been counted. Fuck the people if you didn't punch the right hole, you had ample chance to change your vote during the election. And I don't wanna hear any more on these 'chads'. Swinging, hanging, pregnant, if it's not punched thru clearly so the machine could read the vote, IT'S AN INVALID BALLOT!!!! Change the system for the next election if ya don't like it, you voted on it, you approved it. Maybe not YOU personally, but the 'will of the people' approved it. Everybody would like to think that their vote would count, and I sympathize with that, but if you are too stupid to accomplish this intellectual feat called a punch-card, then kiss my ass!! If you're busy playing connect the frigging dots instead of reading the instructions and taking heed to the warnings in the booth that tell ya "if ya fuck up, yer ballot don't count, eh" then I don't want to hear it!! Head for Cuba if ya don't like it!! Their elections are fairly clear-cut, and I'm sure the ballots are REAL easy to read. Say hola to Elian for us. Hell I bet HE would've understood that ballot.

This is why I swear if my future kids wouldn't end up socially retarded, I'd teach em all at home myself. This is the result of years of historical revision at it's finest. People are ignint.
And it seems to be the trend.......

later kids
JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 06:47:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo thanks.

Guys ya know what...............Gore has found away to throw out the Military overseas votes over a 1000 of them!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because some of them are missing postmarks which the Navy said is common with mail from them because of a varitey of reasons. Now the nation wide plea Gore made to democratic (what an auximoron) lawyers for help is clear why he wanted it. They have posted laywers in each location counting the overseas ballots and are challenging the signitures on them. These democrates really are a disgrace to this great nation of ours. Yes I am military and yes I know of fellow servicemen that are democrates and I remind them everytime they open thier mouth about the hardships we face from the dismantling of great military.

The news meadia is a disgrace also. With holding news from the people. On msnbc's website you can read about the overseas ballots but not on the television coverge which the MAJORITY of US CITIZENS rely on for thier information.

*#%@ OUT!!!!!!
John McGrath <>
Springfield, Missouri, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 12:25:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Comments on Sig P220?
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 14:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Highlights in the news: Hanoi hails Clinton. Military votes don't count, but illegal aliens can vote as many times as they like.

And a bunch of lawyers are trying real hard to slick their way into the White House under the noses of a supposedly soverign people. There they expect to bypass the Legislature and rule (notice I didn't say 'govern') by executive order and court action.

As Gore said, "You ain't seen nothing yet."

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 14:35:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt, Sig P220- I sure like them. I have a P228, P229, and a P220. They point really well for me and take a real beating. I think that you can also fin a decent used one (police trade in) for $400 or so and magazines are relatively cheap. I have a bunch of high dollar custom 1911s, but I end up reaching for the sigs usually.

michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 15:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Next question, any comments on Steiner 7x35G binos and Steiners in general? Botach has the 7x35G(discontinued from last year) on sale.

I have decided on two sets of binos; one for field/stalking and one for from observation in general. I don't want to ever have to buy another set so these will have to do me until I take that final dirt nap.

The IOR's are nice and the PX prices are great but from what research I have done they are really heavy versus some of the more name brand sets.

Also, for field work/stalk, do you really need a mildot if you have a mildot scope?

Getting retinally challenged, Bolt out!
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 16:10:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

NO DOG SHOOTING ON PUBLIC LAND? Is this only in Colo. ??? Please advise if you have more info... Richard in Pa.. My thoughts on shotguns.. I'm prone to 870s They Have been proven to be cop proof, nuf said. I, like many folks am in favor of ghost ring sights with tritium dot front. A light mount is required for target ID unless you can light up your target area at night. For handiness 14" bbls are hard to beat {$200 to feds}. I get Remington factory 14" bbls from an outfit in Nashville, modified choke is standard although I have mine Vang Comped. One shot mag extension is perfect for 14" gun. I cut my stocks to 12 3/4 " and replace the Express forearm with the police forearm..Short stock would probably be of great benefit to your wife plus makes shouldering the weapon with body armor on better. I like side saddles for slugs {cut the old ones down to three rounds so they are not in the way when holding gun at the balance point}..Wilson now offers a four rounder: no cutting anymore. Recoil of most loads is not a problem if you use a technique originally taught by John Satterwhite {sp?] called dynamic tension.. It is a push pull technique where the support hand forearm absorbs a significant portion of the recoil allowing more comfort and quicker follow up shots. A sling is mandatory... Hope this helps.. markwell out
Markwell <>
seneca, WV, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 17:31:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ref. Combat Shotguns

I can't believe that I got away with my previous post unscathed. Damn! With your attention focused so hard on this non-election I could have posted anything and gotten away with it.

Heads up people, watch your lanes.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Cllifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 17:55:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt, Binos- I also bought a pair of the IORs and they are heavy, but really very nice. I can look through them for a long time and my eyes are still relaxed. I don't think that you need the ones with the reticle in them. I asked the Bino question last year and Mr. Undude suggested the IORs. I have been very happy. If I win the lotto I might buy the Leica Geovid then you can have mine!
Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 18:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kevin, you really want to be "scathed" LOL?

IMHO the plain Jane 870 Mag is the most versatile shotgun on the market for quality, price and aftermarket goodies. Nuff said.

On the house cleaning tools we may differ. I live in a "neighborhood" unfortunately and all the windows and stuff like that make me nervous using a rifle caliber. With 8 rounds of number 9 bird shot and an 18" barrel 870 beside the bed I don't really worry about shooting through the windows and walls into my neighbors den. Might hit his case of Bravo brews and really piss him off.

I remain nervous about using any semi-auto weapon for self defense anyway. Have never had my Model 19 or 870 jamb. Also having one under in the chamber without powder in it that pops the cap and doesn't eject kinda makes me pucker also.

If 6 or 8 shots doesn't take care of the problem I deserve what I get anyway. This year I would really like to take a tactical pistol and shotgun course but alas, I think daughter has decided to stay in college. The match in September and having to buy all the accutriments will take all available funds.

Trying to calm down, Bolt out!
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 18:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shotguns: What Markwell said if his police forearm is the one with the sure fire light. His recommendation on stock length is important. Those little cheek-eez pads Brownell's sells are nice. If you are going to change recoil pads, I really like the thick Kick-eez pads. Professional training is by far the best. At a minimum USE the techniques in the Awerbuck and Plaxco videos. Awerbuck has his head on real straight concerning loading and manipulation. Plaxco has some great shooting tips and techniques. The Gunsite tape is real good too. Pick one of the manipulation drills and forget the other exists. If you can get four tapes, John Shaw's is definitely worthwhile. These tapes teach different manipulation drills. Pick ONE and practice it 3,000 times.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 19:05:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Confession: I've never heard of the "push pull" technique.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 19:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

I thought the transfer fee on AOW's was $5.00 all other NFA weapons $200.But I've been wrong before.

I carry a Mossberg 500A persuader 20" for a truck gun and home defense/offense loaded with 8rds federal tactical #4 buck reduced recoil.I live in a small frame house with a wife and two small children and am not interested in taking one of them out with a rifle round zinging through the walls.Colateral damage is tantamount in an urban environment. Test some household building materials like sheetrock or paneling or pine 2x4's.It takes a LOT of layers to even slow down a centerfire rifle round of any caliber.Part of my shooting range uses creosote phone poles for support and .223 or .308 will easily exit them at 30 yards.Would I shoot anything knowing my family is downrange?Not bloody likely(for you Brit's).Have I seen boolets swap direction in wood?Absolutely.To each his own but make mine a "gauge"Oh yea....there ain't nothing wrong with an 870.Kevlar may stop 12 ga but they will think that Arnold Swarzneggar just hit them in the chest with a 4 pound hammer,and will certainly take the fight out of most folks.Shoot 'em....close...shoot 'em some more.
BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 19:23:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt: if Jeff Cooper is to be trusted, and in my opinion he *IS*, then a model 19 is less reliable in some situations than an auto. Those situations aren't to be had in towns and cities ordinarily, but in the field. Until hearing of this, my 357 L frame was king. Now my Glock is.

As for shotguns: I see no need for one. 55's don't go through house materials well, and my family will be behind me at all times in case of a "bad time". But that's due to where I live and the area I live in. Looking out my front window, I've got a good line of sight. This next 5.56 will have a "permanently attached" flash hider on a 14.5" barrel. No bayo lug though, to keep the atf from making ME the next attrocity.

I'll second my good friend Michael on the IOR's. I traded Mike Miller for a few minutes to try his IORs against mine. I liked his better, and so did he ;-) I like the idea of the graticule in them, but unsupported I shake too much with my 7's to range accurately with them. Maybe a 6X. They're a good bino! And I'll also agree with your SIG statements. Very boring pistols. They work every time and you hit what you aim at. The double action is probably the smoothest I've ever felt as factory stock, but I couldn't get used to it. On my list of pistols to try is the Sig P-210.

JR: so what did you really mean? HA! That's why we're a representative republic, not a democracy. If we were still following the founding fathers Constitution, we couldn't vote for senators, and states rights would be stronger. As for homeschooling, you think your kids will be any more socially adept once they come home and tell you that you're trying to kill them by having arms and ammo in the house? The communists have a firm entrenchment in education. Remember, one of the planks of the communist manefesto is "free education". But the communists perfected the system with free "re-education", as an indoctrination source, which excludes "unnecessary" subjects such as history and government. Ignorance is their friend. Patriotism is ours.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, once known as the great, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 20:01:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, serious discussion of the IOR's. We have 8x30, 7x40, 10x40, 10x50.

Range finders in bino's. - I know I have a hard enough time keeping a rifle and scope still enough to range with the mildots, the least little shake on my spotting scope makes the dots look like dancing blobs. I get the feeling here that even in a supported position, bino's with range finders are tough to use.

We have IR detection and non-IR. – Is this a useful feature or something else to go wrong?

We have 8, 7 and 10 power. – For stalking and spying would the 10 power be overkill or are you just trying to check out the landscape for the boogy man or movement?

For Long Range observation. – Is the 10x40 the way to go or the 10x50?

I know this is getting tedious but would rather bore you than break my billfold for nothing. I still have a set of 30 year old Bell and Howells if that tells you anything.

A bino-challenged Bolt, OUT!

Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 20:33:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry to do this to you guys, but I just gotta.
From World Net Daily, I got this, and when I saw it, I got red. Florida Attorney General and Gore supporter Bob Butterworth is now an elector. WorldNetDaily confirmed Butterworth's elector status with his office on Friday, but a spokesman for the AG refused to elaborate on questions regarding potential conflicts of interest. The Bush campaign told WND it was aware of Butterworth's status. What conflicts of interest? WELL, LET ME TELL 'YA! Article II Section 1 of the United States Constitution says: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators or Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."
So the question now is, do the people of Florida not care that their attourney general is violating the Constitution, or do they hold him in such low esteem that he can't possibly be in an Office of Trust?
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
the banana republic, wanting to split, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:12:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Doom and Gloom
I've seen nothing but Doom and Gloom on this site.

You guys have got to start looking at the bright side of algore as Fearless Leader.
For instance: he's bound to have a positive - if temporary - effect upon some parts of our economy!

Now, if I were a Louis Rukeyser Elf, I'd be suggesting that you consider all the industries that will temporarily gain additional income as they struggle to meet consumer demand.
For instance- Bravo has mentioned a gigantic ammunition sales upswing.

Now, how are all these enemies of our new and glorious algore led socialist society going to STORE all that ammunition?

Any company manufacturing 6" PVC schedule 40 tube, end caps & PVC glue will experience growth.
Trucking companies hauling it from the factory to the plumbing supply stores will also see quarterly increases due to demand for PVC products.

Shovels will be in demand - and that means some steel and wood supply industries along with hardware store sales increases.

Crude Oil Demand Up:
Last I heard, we need crude oil to manufacture PVC and cosmolene; gasoline and diesel oil for transport.

algore and the environment.
All that digging aerates the topsoil.
Thousands- if not millions- of PVC cache tubes will be buried by people around this vast country.

The Printing Industry:
Software that allows printing double byte fonts will be in demand as people in Amerika struggle to learn Chinese.

Little Red Books will need to be printed in order to properly glorify our Fearless Leader.
Don't forget gigantic posters with the likeness of our Fearless Leader.
More paper products and more ink in demand; it all needs transport.

An Exchange of Ideas:
The American public will learn new customs and vocabulary as we learn the true meaning of term "to kowtow". For example: "Our President kowtows to a hostile and dangerous foreign government."

Foreign Trade:
We send the Peoples Republic of China all our money and they send us manufactured goods once made in our country.

Well, OK.
We ALREADY do that.

Actually, the increase in trade will occur mostly with those Buddhist monks and Communists that contribute most to algore's personal economy- and those of his cronies.

They WILL need to store and spend all that extra cash SOMEWHERE.

I fully expect algore to do to the USA what Al Capone did to Chicago, Illinois in the 1930s.

Last but not least:
algore is only President so long as Comrade Hillary allows him to be President!

Now, discuss amongst yourselves.

If you need further economic guidance, I suggest you contact Louis Rukeyser c/o

I'll get back in my foxhole and be quiet now.

Number 6 <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:24:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

It appears the Democrats didn't have the foresight to stuff the overseas mailbags. They haven't been able to disqualify enough military. It doesn't appear that the cheat-count isn't going to turn up enough votes to put Gore over the top. They showed their hand so, if they don't take it all now, they are screwed hard. They know this. Come on January 20.

Ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."

870 note: I've never shot full-house loads from a 14" bbl. Us guys in "candy-ass class" don't care to.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:41:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,
Time to pick your knowledge filled brains again,just saw some stuff on this 300WSM (winchester short magnum). It reminds me a lot of the 300 Jamison are they the same or how much difference is there between the two? Thanx for you time and help if you can lend any.

Marc <>
Pa, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:57:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

HK 940 and Other HK Sporting Rifles:

I was on the range today with a friend and his new (to him) HK 940 hunting rifle in .30-06. Damn. With Federal Classic 165gr. it would put three rounds into .5 MOA with little difficulty. This leads me to ask if anybody knows anything about these rifles use in a tactical setting. I know they have some imperfections mechanicaly and some serious logistical problems, but the performace of this rifle today was quite impressinve. I wonder if I can fit it into a McMillan stock?! :)


I own and like 870s. There is no question that they work very well. But whatever happened to the Ithica 37 as a serious contender? I have several of these as well and find them to also be wonderful guns. What gives?


I have one each of the 7x20 and 10x50 IORs. I have put them up side-by-side with the military Steiners and they hold up very well opticaly. The 10x50s are not light but the 7x40s are of reasonable weight. The 10x50s are quite massive but are "worth it", in my book. They both make for a good pair of field glasses, but would like to add one more pair in the "so light, you forget about them" class. Perhaps Nikons. Or perhaps a smaller pair of IORs, like the 8x21s. I tend to favor the latter notion, actually. Those three binocs wouldcover just about anything, I would imagine.

I considered and rejected both the range finder and the IR detector. The former srtuck me as too coarse for the sort of work done with small arms, the latter apparently works mostly with active IR illumination sources such as searchlights on crusty old M48s and T-72s. Not too useful, in my book.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 00:38:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Richard in PA,
You can't go wrong with an 870. They hardly ever come in to my shop for repair. I've cleaned two or three over the past 18 years and replaced a barrel and forearm on one a guy blew up after a wad from a squib load lodged in the barrel!!!!! I've never heard of any problems with the safety on an 870; but the only real safety should be the shooter that's holding it.

I love my P220 and my son loves his. I'm terrible on that first shot; but that's not the fault of the weapon. I shoot my Glock 21 better; but you will normally find me with a Colt Commander stuck in my belt in the small of my back. The Glock gets damned heavy when you pack it all day. I'm probably going to retire the Colt and go with the SIG in the near future.
Doc <>
Where the oll woodstove is cookin' in the nippy Ozark boonies., MO, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 02:12:09 (ZULU) (your host address:


Is it possible that the comments posted to this board could once again become remotely related to SNIPING?
I understand that everyone has an opinion on the political goings on of the moment, but these should be directed to (if such a site exists), not
Until everyone interested in the art of sniping knows what everyone else in the wonderful world of sniping knows, I believe the posts to this board should be kept focussed on just sniping.
This also goes for pistol, shotgun, hunting, etc. type posts.
I am not uninterested in these topics, it is just that there are more appropriate site on which to discuss them.

Any takers?


Gonzo <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 03:05:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gonzo, you are right. It's just that sometimes damn it you just have to get things off your chest if you know what I mean. I have always advocated what you posted but it got to the point that I just had to blow off steam with a lot of the rest of the Rosterferians that love their country and their guns.

Nobody here at home but me, the dog and girlfriend. The dog don't care and girlfriend humors me. We are like a shooting family on this site and sometimes we just put up with this kind of ranting like having to listen to your mother-in-law. You know when the Bolt starts ranting about politics, IT HAS TO BE REALLY BAD! It always goes away and we get back to shooting eventually. Just bare with us until this crap settles down.

The valium must have kicked in, Bolt oooouuuutttt!
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 03:18:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

OH I LIKE THIS! I GOT MY NEW REMINGTONS IN .223 AND 7.62 CARLOS WOULD BE INCLINED A NOD. HEAVY BARREL AND ONE HECK OF A SCOPE.the guys at the range were looking kinda interested in thiese toys.they even got to shoot thi weapon of iron and wood, they agreed it is a nice christmas gift damm i got a good wife!
cooljerk0111 <>
swartzcreek, mich, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 03:32:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
It is dellusional to think that 55gr .223 will not penetrate common building materials.55gr ball will readily penetrate 3/8 hot roll A36 (steel plate) at 75 yds and generally do so at 100 yds.147gr .308 ball will penetrate the same plate at 125yds consistently.If you choose a rifle round for home defense then so be it but don't suffer from denial or mis-information.Unless you live in a home with re-inforced concrete walls in excess of 3.5" 55gr .223 ball will penetrate it.It will take MANY layers of 5/8 sheetrock and numerous pine 2x4's to have any appreciable effect on ANY centerfire round that is not of a highly frangible design.This is not a flame but is the result of practical observation of effects of real ammo from real guns shot by myself.Since I shoot on my own range instead of a club type of situation I have shot many improvised or unconventional targets many of which have been metal or very thick wood.This has been enlightening to say the least.You need to be behind a substantial object to be free from the danger of a centerfire rifle.
BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 03:36:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Posts are getting a bit political, but as pointed out it will pass...

Doc: As much as I love other handguns I usually have a Colt Cmdr on my belt, as well. Been shooting them since age 8 and I'm 49 now. Carried them in the service and two wars. Kinda like havin' an old friend for back up. Have tried others, but keep coming back. John Moses had his "feces collective"!

On .223 and .308 for home defense. I have to answer no...just to much penetration. Even pistols are bad. Tactical teams are switching because supposed requirements of thier adversary being in body armor. Can't vouch for that, but frankly haven't seen many armored perps.
NVA didn't use it and the Iraqis sure as shit didn't. Think this is another knee jerk reaction to percieved need...

My personal favorite is the shotgun or subgun for close in personal work.

On the 870's: I have a great Scattergun Tech 14 1/2" entry gun. Runs 100% and never fails to draw rave reviews from those that use it and handle it. Has the versatility to use any round out there.

Other guns of note are the Mossberg 590, Ithaca 37, and the Benelli semi auto.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 04:18:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gonz & Boltster; I am reminded of the Roman Emperor Nero who fiddled around at www. while Rome burned. I have the feeling if there were a moon sized Comet heading for earth there would be complaints that we were talking off subject if we mentioned it...but I too am weary of this thing. It's far more serious than we realize at present I fear.

870's Rule for 25 yards in any gun battle. Somebody send me the name of the guy who had the only shotgun and lost the fight!
Sometimes the spouse may have to use the weapon in case Rambo isn't home....a crime (person) might be tempted to try for my wife's .38 but I think the sound of a 12 ga. action will make a bad boy go straight! It is just easier to do a lethal blow with a ga. I've done a lot of test work with experienced and non experienced and the ga. has the edge for officer or citizen in the protection mode. Guys like Mike the Undude are probably more able in staying out of liability problems by being able to direct their fire with a CAR. CSC thinks he can respond faster with his rifle and I don't question these cases but for the average bear. The GA. is more firepower and more effective in my experience. The bluff factor alone is a big factor that I was unable to measure in my tests that had nothing to do with that. Just speed and power and still the ga. is supreme.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 04:35:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Winchester Ranger .223 Training Ammunition:

Got to run a box of Winchester Ranger LEO only (heh) non-toxic 45 gr. fragnible training ammo through a rifle today. Seemed to shoot pretty well. Is there any data on this stuff as to terminal ballistics? Seems to me that it might have some potential as a "house gun" load for ARs and the like. Or is this stuff a little toooo fragnible?

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 04:39:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bruce: I should have stipulated, those 55's are SMK's. Not FMJ's. I was going off of a report that I was handed from a great good friend, penned by Fackler. It could be that I've got "too much", but from what Fackler wrote, it was the best, including pistol rounds. As a matter of fact, it was too little for defenative penetration through car doors and the like. It could be I'm making a bad decision, but that's what I based it off of. Well, that and Patron Mike's discussion of jelly balls or whatever they were called.

Wild Bill: I know what a CAR can do for intimidation. I illustrated such with one of my little sisters "former suitors". I knew the mag was empty, as well as the rifle, when I appeared in the living room with a resounding "chunk!" of the bolt running home. He decided not to stay.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
the banana republic, trying to split, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 04:56:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Quick chime in on the 223/5.56mm indoor thing.

The 55grn FMJ loads are shown to be pretty lethal when you make a hit on soft tissue, something about the things yawing so rapidly and violently that they actually snap in half at the canneleur, this supposedly happens with decent reliability when the impacting velocity is above 2700fps if I remember correct. It is my understanding this only happens in soft tissue though, in most other materials the damn things will punch through like a sewing needle. I too have watched FMJ go through all sorts of things like drywall and steel.

When the rounds hit tissue the testers are saying the 223/5.56mm round is less likely to over penetrate compared to the pistol caliber subguns.

In the 223/5.56mm I'd still rather go with something like a Vmax or a hollowpoint that feeds reliably but expands like the dickens. Love that fragile little Vmax, god forbid I did miss for whatever reason, those things are really good at breaking up. I should construct a dummy wall with a piece of insulation between two sheets of drywall to see what the hole looks like when the round exits. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be surprised by what a FMJ would do but a polymer tipped round should prove interesting.

For personal preference as to whether I'd rather use a handgun, a carbine, or a shotgun indoors? Well, I know a pistol is loud indoors as I fired a pistol at the indoor range once with the pleasure of not having my hearing protection fully on yet, opps. I haven't fired a shotgun or rifle indoors yet, hoping I don't have to experience that one as they pack a mighty wallop to the ears. Putting on hearing protection sure doesn't seem like an option before room clearing your house unless it is of the amplified/powered shutoff variety that allows you to hear soft sounds but cuts out the loud sounds. Wish I was in a Class III state, I'd just put a Gemtech can on the end of the HK USP or on the end of the M4 clone and not have to worry about bleeding ears after having taken a shot. I want to play with suppressors for several other reasons but the benefits to using them at night indoors would be helpful as well, lessen the muzzle report and kill off the muzzle flash.

B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 09:32:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. Ballistic Software

I'm currently using a software package called UBC. It seems to work ok but it is not very flexable.

I'm ready to buy some software. What ballistic software is the best?

At Wallyworld last night buying 1oz. 12ga. slugs ($1.99/five pack) the computer at the chekout counter flashes, "is this for a handgun?" I must answer no or I have to show my NYS pistol license. No pistol license means no pistol ammunition. It's not a law to my knowledge just store policy. Later visited K-Mart down the road and they have a sign posted saying just about the same thing implying that it is the law. This gives me the creeps......
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 12:06:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Please post and pass on. Thank you in advance.

Snipercraft will be hosting the ninth annual SniperWeek in Miami, FL, April 18 - 21, 2001. This is the largest and longest running police sniper training event in the US.

The SWAT/Sniper Educational Seminar is held April 18 & 19. Speakers addressing topics of interest to snipers, supervisors and tactical personnel will present lectures and incident debriefings. Venders will also be on hand to display and demonstrate the latest in tactical equipment.

The Snipercraft Challenge follows on April 20 & 21. This is not a contest. This is recognized as a competitive training event, like no other sniper event, anywhere. It will be a practical series of intense, live-fire exercises, designed by police snipers, for police snipers. Any sniper seeking to gauge his readiness to operate in real world situations should be here.

The Seminar costs $100 per person. The Challenge costs $80 per person. Attend all four days for only $160. Part of the proceeds is donated to the Make A Wish Foundation, and the Police Officers Assistance Trust.

This event is endorsed by the NTOA and the American Sniper Association. Attendance is limited to active police, corrections and military personnel only.

Contact Snipercraft, 954-389-0829,,, for details and registration information.
Derrick Bartlett <>
Ft Lauderdale, FL, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 14:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you have to depend on FMJ .223 even at close range better be sure it's a lethal organ like the brain or heart. Otherwise you'll no survive if he has a heavy weapon. Doesn't matter if he dies the next week. It will not, will not do the job as a rule.
Bravo; I suppose you're right. I can see where the action of a AR could be confused with that of a 12 ga. ! I knew a guy who ran off one time and the gun was only a 20 ga. ...Poor guy just didn't know his weapons. .... Just kiddin ... No body wants to face a gun. The cocking of a .38 Special hammer would probably work too! Just doesn't carry as far.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 14:42:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi guys, been busy as heck. Read most of the post and here is a few of my thoughts.

On shotguns. The 870 is the best I have used! They are just about cop proof and that is about Marine Proof. As to length of bbls, I have found a 14" bbl has less felt recoil than either an 18 or 20" has. The shotgun is a weapon that will make a mess of a bad guy in a heart beat. I prefer a CAR15 because body armor is a real threat these days. Prior to all the body armor being everywhewre I used a 14" 870 or Ben. M1 for first in work. I saw one pellet take a bad guy out (in the head), after a big assed fight. The weapon is a great TRuck Gun. It is great short range and will read far better in the papers when you have to dispatch someone. "A farmer defended himself with a shotgun" versus "A Militia Memeber killed an alleged assailant with an Assault Weapon." Just food for thought.

On CAR15's and this over penetration issue that does not exist. Wes, you like everother military guy has been told it just keeps on going like the Eveready Bunny, but that is not so. We use 55grain soft points and they go in but they dont check out (Bad commercial day I guess) With a CAR15 ammo is critical to the mission. I run just 55 grain soft points for CQB and 62grain SS109 for field. I here great things about some of the other low penetration rounds but we buy Federal Classic 55grain soft point cheap and it works, so I can practice with what I carry. One word of warning any Federal 223 may cause problems in bbls less than 16". Fed uses a slower powder than any Military stuff and is designed to work in longer bbls, so check before you carry with it.I know the SS109 has a poor performance rate on tissue but I can hit a long way away with it, plus it penetrates very well, so I take it for field work. On the 308 as a CQB weapon. The 308 is way too much for this, unless you load it with blanks and use a a flash bang weapon., Just a joke.

On Bino's, IOR is the best for the least. I do not like the range finding thing in mine. Just too darn busy.

Grasshopper and others, Steve Helsey (Steve if I screwed up your name I am sorry), is a hell of a shot and the real deal. He is retired Calif Department of Justice. (State FBI, but made of real cops.) I believe he took a medical retirement after many years of dedicated service. Knows his weapons very well, although I have never seen anyone get so excited about old foreign stuff before. This opinion is just mine and if you do not like it too bad.

Bravo, my friend, you can lead a horse to water but when his feet are covered in crap, dont walk him into the pond. It just spoils the drink for the rest of use.

On lasers, Nikon finally gave me a price for me to keep the range finder I wrote about. What a deal just ten dollars more than what the local shop sells them for, after my field testing the heck out of this one, so I sent it back. Now I am in need of a range finder. Any suggestions? I need 800 yard plus capability, dependable, rugged and no multi thousand dollar price tag.

Undude, wishing he was on a 1000 yard line today.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 14:49:54 (ZULU) (your host address:


On bins, and shotguns.
I've got Nikons, Celestrons, and Steiners, and the Steiners are heads above the others...

My favorite "non-sportin'" shotguns (unless home defence is a "sport"), are Remington 11-87 3" Police Magnum, and a 870 3" magnum.
I used the 11-87 in matches for a while, but the only mods were tritium sights, and a Brownells speed lever on the loading lever. The instructions say to use only 3" mag (liability??), but the gun will feed and cycle 30 year old paper skeet loads, when held loosely... very reliable.
The 870 has an 18" barrel, and a pear shaped grip (it's a squad car gun) and is what I have as the "house gun".

The "Clackity clack" of an 870 is world recognised, and is almost as deadly as the ammo... as they leave a brown trail out of your house to their parked car!


Pablito <>
Can't take anymore TV news in the, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 15:21:16 (ZULU) (your host address:


What do you do if you have one of the many riffles that shoot pistol ammo, like the lever guns, or camp carbines?


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 15:25:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello I am a Marksman Observer on a Department of the Army SRT team, we are a new team with a new marksman program, we have had limited training in the area of our trade, most of use are prior militairy and expert marksmen. I would like to know if you would have any new team training tips that would be helpfull for our young team. And I was also wondering if there are any Marksman Observers in your organization. We currently are using the M-24/ANPVS10 SWS. if you would happen to have any helpfull info on uor SWS, or tac. equipment such as vests, ghillie suits kits, M-24 info(TM, PM, Helpful guides), or anything else that would be helpfull it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time and help,
Jared C. Anderson
Officer Anderson, Jared C. <>
Dugway, UT, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 15:35:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

I guess when asked, "Is this for a handgun?"
LIke the bumper sticker says, "Just say no."
Like I said, it gives me the creeps.

Dear Mr. Bartlett,
Have a nice sniper shoot. If you ever decide to let plain people participate, let me know. Until then I guess I'll just have to watch the "competitive training event" from a knot-hole in the fence.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 16:19:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have an article on the 1903 Springfield rifles written by a Marine named Dick Pulver. I am trying to find where I downloaded the piece, as it was very good and the author welcomed feedback and questions... which I have in abundance .

I was sure I got the article from this board, but can't seem to track it down. Can you help?



Bud Steigerwald <>
Milford, Ohio, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 16:22:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am going to make a half-ass attempt to tie the political stuff to sniper stuff. In 'Strategy'(Harvard University Press: 1987) Dr Edward Luttwak of Georgetown's Center For International and Strategic Studies identifies four levels of strategy: Technical, tactical, operational and strategic. Each of these levels can be visualized as a chess board which makes a four dimensional game. Moves at one level effect all other levels. There is a goal to this game and that goal is political. This site generally concerns itself with the technical level, which is good. But the general must not lose sight of his political goal and the fact that tecnical, tactical, operational or strategic success may be hostile to his political goal. The logic is subtle. It is a large subject. Luttwak's book has an excellent section on the relationship between guerilla warfare and political objectives. The Asprey book I recommended earlier has an extensive bibliography on guerilla warfare. For a primer on political intrigue, I recommend, "I, Claudius."

I have a little technical competence, and my feel for politics is pretty good. I don't know anything about all the steps in between the two, but I'm sure that if I thought above my pay grade I'd make a muck of it. If that makes me a horse with shit on my shoes....

CDC' <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 16:24:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Would appreciate some guidance with installing a 3rd generation Springfield scope mount on an M1A. Specifically I need help with removing the stripper clip guide assembly and the replacement of that piece. There seems to be a roll pin stablizing the assembly to the receiver. Does this have to be driven out? Does the bolt assembly have to be removed first? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Chris @ WMFA.
Chris @ White Mountains Firearms <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 17:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone have any input on the books by Sgt.Jim Owens on sling positions etc.?
UnDude (or anyone else for that matter), do you know if traditional sling positions can be used with your fabulous slings? I'm asking because I gots a couple from ya' a couple months ago. I really want to learn how to use a sling properly, but I don't know of anyone around me who can show me, so I might want to check out those books (only if they can be used with your sling, not just the Turner types). Also, if there are any other good books or any better ones I would appreciate knowing what they are. I figger you can never learn too much.
Rich S. <>
Baltimore, "home of the "smart handgun" in 2003 MD, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 18:11:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
The following is taken from the BATF website;

ATF Form 1 (5320.1),Application to Make and Register a Firearm.

This form is used by an individual to make and register and NFA firearm.A making tax of $200 per firearm will be incurred.

ATF Form 4 (5320.4) Application fo Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of a Firearm.

This form is used for the tax paid transfer of an NFA firearm.A transfer tax of $200 per firearm will be incurred(the transfer tax is $5.00 for a firearm classified as an "other weapon").

Any other weapon.Any weapon or device capable of being carried concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, lesss than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall includde any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.Such term shall not include a pstol or revolver having a rifled bore,or rifled bores,or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

So it looks to me like ;

If you cut it down(or have it cut down) and registered $200

If you buy it already cut with a buttstock $200

If you buy it cut with a pistol grip(thusly making it an AOW)$5.00

Since AOW's cost little if any more than your standard factory shotgun(in the case of Remington,Mossberg,and Ithaca,anyway)these look like EXCELLENT investment values.

Hey it may not be sniping but at least it ain't politics

BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 18:19:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chris, drive the pin out of the stripper clip guide using a 3/32 pin punch. The pin drives out at an angle. You must remove the barrel assembly from the stock in order to remove the pin. You do not have to remove the bolt. After you have the pin out drive the stripper clip guide off from right to left. That is from the operating handle side. Install the scope mount from the left to right. Make sure that the pin holes line up. Use your pin punch. Drive the new roll pin back in. This was the only part of the operation that gave me any trouble.
John <>
Liberty, TX, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 19:23:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

In answer to Jim Owen's books on use of the sling...they are well worth the money. I have all in his series. They apply to the Military 1907 sling which is sold by many names. Usually, the Whelan military sling. It also shows you how to set it up for match(not field) use.
The down side of these is that they take time to get into and out of...

Mike Miller, Tactical Intervention, and the "Undude" of the list has a better idea. He makes and markets several slings that have a separate cuff you wear on the weak arm and a portion of the sling that detatches and snaps into the arm cuff. I have two and just started using one a bit. They are worth the money and I like the idea of getting into and out of position with just a "snap" of a fastex fastener. Well done "Undude".

Another cheap plug for Mike's stuff from Wes, at Willamette Small Arms Academy.

Mike, that ammo we talked about will be on it's way Monday. Have 9MM, .223, and .308 headed your way.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 19:33:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the input. One question though (I hope it's not a stupid one), are the positions etc. as taught by Jim Owens applicable to Mike Miller's slings? I just want to make sure. I'd hate to spend the money on the books only to find out I can't use half the 'derned positions with the Quick-Cuff.
Rich S. <>
Balt., MD, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 20:13:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
I believe the origional post on this string was Winchester vs. Remington pump shotguns. I have owned both and prefer the Winchester. The action is much smoother on the Winchester, it almost pumps itself. I have had the Remington "stick" in battery after firing on both mine and my friends, especally when new. The safety on the Winchester is in a better position, in front of the triggerguard where your finger is when not shooting. As for duribilty, a friend left his Winchester leaning aganst the rear bumper of his F-250 after duckhunting and backed over it with both tires. The shotgun still works perfectly today, 5 years later.
Just my 2 centavos worth,

John Stanley <>
Morro Bay, Kalifornication, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 21:55:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rich: I played with my UnDude sling a couple of days before going out to the class, and having Patron help me get it perfect. Before that, I'd only used the Turner military loop for position shooting. Does it translate? Well, first off, with the military loop, you make a "cuff" with it anyway. Seems if memory serves, there was a bet on a prone / slung shoot and all bulls out there at the class too. Yes, the TIS slings translate well. But here's the difference. Instead of knowing where you have to re-locate the sling hooks to for your different positions (sitting / prone, I don't do kneeling), it's already set up. Just hook in, no keepers to mess with, etc. Took me like 10 times longer to set up the first time, but it's a one shot deal instead of a before every position thing. So now, when I go to prone, it's a 2 second deal with Mike's sling instead of a 10 second or so deal with the Turner. I've used the Turner for YEARS, and I won't get rid of mine, as Mike's sling isn't CMP legal, but for *ANYTHING* else, it's well ahead of the competition in spades. If you get one, and think it's garbage, I'll buy it off of you. That's how sure I am.

Chris: step one: sell (or return if possible) the Springfield Inc mount. Spend $30 more and get the ARMS #18. You'll be MUCH more satisfied if you're going to use it as intended. Steel versus aluminum, and a better design with more stability, and adjustability for range to boot! I took the action out of the stock and the bolt out of the action to do this, but it's not necessary I suppose as long as the trigger assembly is out and the bolt is forward. John had everything else perfect. But I'd seriously look at the ARMS. It's well worth the dough.
Bravo - PATRIOTS USA!! <>
the banana republic, ready to repel communists at bayo point, USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 22:46:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim Owens' books and tapes are easily worth the money. The wind tape is especially good.

CDC' <>
USA - Sunday, November 19, 2000 at 22:57:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, I guess it's a done deal. Jim Owen's books will compliment my TIS slings quite nicely. Time to git me some reedin' mateereealll!!! WooooHoooo!
Thanks Guys,
Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 00:56:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
I reached your site from the EDM site. At first glance, I almost immediately was preparing to leave as I have had quite enough of the "down with the governement" and "kill 'em all" sites I can stand. You're warning to minors and militants caught my eye so I read that page. Besides your site being very useful and full of usable and interesting data, it was very refreshing to see someone make a point without becoming either radical or insulting to my intelligence.

I wish to congratulate you on a point well taken with your warning and hope to contribute in some small way to the success of your site in the future.

Jeff Howard <>
Garland, Texas, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 00:58:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Need to find a folding combat knife:
Guy's help me out here. Looking for a good combat folder with a sheath (preferably brown leather) that will fit on my web gear pistol belt. I use modified P58 webbing so it's not quite as wide as an ALICE belt. Looking for a high quality blade that can gut/skin elk, deer, coyotes and rabits as well as be used for general utility work and defense etc. Prefer one that can be opened with one hand. Anyone have web sites I should check out before I buy?
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.comd>
USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 01:54:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bud' I think you are speaking of Col. Dick Culver USMC ret. He has a page... and a forum. Try typing in the address".
I'm sure you saw it here. Dick and I had a discussion a few years back about Springfields. He is a delight on the the subject. He is one of the father's of this black art and a great American. I wish he'd come round here once in a while.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 02:09:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
For you gentlemen who are looking for a defensive shotgun, try the Benelli M1 semi-auto. Nine 12 GA. rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger. High quality and smooth as butter. Very low recoil. #4 Buckshot under 20 yards = D E V E S T A T I O N
John Frazier <>
Lawrenceville, GA, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 03:09:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Is there any difference between a 7.62 x 51 military cartridge and a civilian .308 round? My brother tells me that they are not 100% identical. One has slightly thinner or smaller case, or smaller shoulder or something of that nature? In my 20+ years of shooting, I have never heard this before.

If there is any slight difference, does it matter? You can still interchange them for shooting. Any comments?

Frazier <>
Law., GA, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 03:21:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


The Steiners are pretty good glass but my eyes do not like the focusing system. I get eyestrain after just a couple of minutes. I bought a pair of Nighthunter 10x50mm a couple of months ago and had to return them and fork over serious cash for a pair of Leica BA Ultra 10x50mm binocs. If you've got a line on a good deal on a pair of Steiners, just make sure the store has a good return policy. You shouldn't have any problem with Botach, though. I've always received great service from them.

Roger C. <>
A city getting more conservative by the day, Austin, TX, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 03:26:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff Howard and "Kill 'em All"/Nutcase Sites:

Would you care to provide some URLs for some of these sites? I get so comfortable in this little island of professionalisim and relative civility that I forget how "the other half " lives, sometimes. Havent been to a good wacko site in a while.

Chris and M1A Scope Mounting:

Ditto what others have said: sh*tcan the SA Inc. mount, as it's real-world performance is pretty pitiful. Not only is the SA Inc. mount aluminum, its a pretty sorry grade of alumiuninum to boot. The single-point $40 mounts that people sell are actually made of better materials than the SA Inc mount, from what I have seen. Go ahead and spend the big moolah for a real scope mount. Buy what Fulton Armory sells, as they are going to stock the best scope mounting systems avaialble for that rifle, period. The Brookfield is the best and Fulton normally sells them, but they can't get them. Seems that the Department of the Navy is vacuming them all up with not a scrap left over for the civilian market. One of the options they sell is the ARMS mount mentioned earlier, which is excellent indeed. To install any two point system, you simply drive out the roll pin and then drift out clip giude and replace. Note: if the replacement piece that fits into the clip guide dovetail feels too tight, DO NOT FORCE IT! This can crack that part of the receiver in some cases, so I understand. Either fit it up right by stoning and filing or have a pro fit it.

Undude and his Super Sling:

It is indeed a super sling, particularly for the tactical market. I shot it once on my 700 PSS in a Long Range match and it was pretty competant at that too (moreso than I, after after so long a layoff). My only issue with it for that application was the lightweight nature of the arm cuff. While the ideal solution for the tactical market, it could stand to be heavier and stiffer for Long Range and for ideal comfort for some tactical scenarios as well, I imagine. Mike, have you ever considered making a wider, beefier arm cuff, a' la Freelands or something like that? SCUBA tank belt material or something in that class?

Shotguns - Remington vs. Winchester:

It is worth noting that the Remington and Winchester pumps both have close semiautomatic cousins using mostly the same parts, so you can look to the performance of the gas versions for clues on ultimate durability and reliability of the pump guns.

Remington has a more maintnence-intensive gas system, but that much tells us nothing for our purpose here, and that has largely been corrected in the 11-87 anyway. Just wipe it all down with an oily rag every now and again and they work fine. Winchesters break and wear out lots more parts. They shear carrier plate screws, they crack trigger housings and they wear out shell stops, all on a fairly regular basis. The Remington has no carrier plate screw or equivilant, the trigger housing assembly is pretty much bulletproof and the shell stops give considerably fewer problems. The average dove hunter will never notice the difference between one and the other amongst his friends and his guns, but I have seen enough of both cross my bench to know which one I would bet my ass on.

But I'd love to have a 1400 for skeet or pass shooting ducks. They are so heavy out front that they aid swing and follow through beautifuly. :)

11-87 and Load Flexibility:

Most folks observe that, and compared to an 1100, the 11-87 gives up some flexibiity on the light end in order to get the gun to function with 3" magnum ammo. I used to load 7/8 oz. of #9s on top of a dab of Red Dot in AA hulls for skeet in my 1100 and this functiuoned beautufuly, The same load would short-stroke in an 11-87 more often than not. Perhaps this is an extreem example, but worthy of note nonetheless. Others had trouble with some lots of promotional 1 oz. dove loads in 11-87s as well.


Tom Simpson <>
Columbia, SC, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 03:37:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

.308 and 7.62 NATO the same? Oh, man...:

Why dont you bring up a safer and less controversial subject, like religeon or the coutability of pregnant chads? :)

This is the subject of all sorts of debate on various mailing lists. Let me give you the short version as best I understand it:

Winchester lifted the prints for the .308 directly from the military. Unfortunatly, they did not lift the *final*, official prints but one of the later deveopmental prints, which specifies a slightly different headspace tolerances.

How important is this? Usualy, not very. The only time you are likely to notice the difference in the real world is in National Match M1 and M14 rifles set up with snug chambers cut with a commercial reamer to minimal headspace using commercial gauges. In that instsance, some lots of 7,62 NATO may yield insufficient headspace and run the risk of slam fires, out of battery ignitions and other such pleasantness. There might be some trouble in certain other unforgiving guns such as the Browning BLR and and some Sako bolt guns, as the former has very poor initial extraction and the latter are sometimes seen with very, very tight chambers. Typically, though, there are no issues in bolt guns with SAMMI standard chambers with most lots of NATO-spec ammunition. SAMMI reports that there could be some problems with 5.56 military ammunition in SAMMI spec chambers, howerver. To my knowedge, SAMMI has never bothered to raise a similar concern about 7.62 NATO and .308. For those that are curious, the SAMMI and military drawings for .30-06 are practicaly identical.

In all of these cases, however, it should be noted that military brass tends to run considerably heavier than their civilian equivilants, so the standard warnings about backing off poewder charges 10% for use in military brass still applies.

Or, at least, thats how I understand it. :)

Tom Simpson <>
Columbia, SC, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 04:03:01 (ZULU) (your host address:


Chris, Bravo762 is correct in his assessment of the SA 3rd gen mount. He's convinced me to sell mine(done) and order an ARMS #18 mount(in process. He's more or less the "gas gun guru" of our site, at least when it comes to M25's. Listen to his advice, he's been there and made some of the mistakes already. After all, that's why they call it experience!

On my post of 223 and .308 being overpenatrative I was assuming military applications and only FMJ would be used. Mike kindly reminded me there are others on the list and other options. Softpoint .223 gets my nod. MIA CULPA...I will now go meditate upon the error of my ways...

Looks like the Undudes Sling gets rave reviews from all. Hell, why is it I can't ever have a great idea like that!

Brother in law coming down Thursday and Bringing his Savage .308 Tactical. Hope we have some fun over the weekend.

Your best thoughts and prayers are solicited. My wife, and love of 11 years, goes in for Cancer Surgery on the 24th...hope we get it all.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 04:06:27 (ZULU) (your host address:



Witch one should i go with any recommendations..
Using a remington pss700.
John <>
USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 08:32:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don@liberty, and anyone else out there who wants to know:

IMHO, the best folder available is the Chris Reeve Sebenza.
One hand open and close, blade geometry that works, and lock up that's hell for stout. They are rather spendy but well worth the cost. Check out or . Often you can find very nice ones used on or www,
Steve <>
American Fork , UT, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 12:57:13 (ZULU) (your host address:


On your question regarding types of knobs, I if you are looking for a field gun with a 1 turn knob and can live with 1 MOA increments, go with a BDC style knob.
If you want to do some target shooting and won't be engaging targets at multiple ranges, or you need 1/4 moa adjustments, go with your standard US #1 target knobs

On shotguns,

Gotta chime in on my fav, the Mossberg 590, marine model. Had one of thise and I abused the hell out of it, rock solid pump gun. I have however traded it in for an M1 Super90 with Sure Fire light. Love it.

Later dudes ( and Undudes )

Kush out

kush <>
Great White Buffalo, NY, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 13:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Question: Anyone have any info for a sight on all 308's produced? I have a question and need to match a picture to a rifle.
please drop me an email with any sites.
Thank you.
Eric Charsky <>
VT, Rutland, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 13:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the story on the .308 vs 7.62. M852 "Match" ammo, and Federal Goldmedal Match 168gr are about as close to being the same as you are likely find. The Federal stuff is a little faster, but overall the M852 will do a nice job.
When the armorer rebarreled my M1A he used an M852 reamer, and the rifle will shoot M852, Federal, and Blackhills with excellent results. Blackhills is the most accurate, then Federal, and last is the M852. All 3 will produce 200yd groups that are sub moa, so I buy what I can get the best deal on. For the long range shooting, (beyond 600yds) I like the Federal GM308M2. Of course, I handload both the 168gr, and 175gr SMK's, and use LC Match, or Federal Brass with Rem primers.

Best Regards,

Bill B <>
ky, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 13:31:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tom, I do make a Match Type Sling. It uses heavy duty 2" wide webbing for both the strap and the sling. It is just a front strap type with no carry feature. I use wider elastic on the front for padding. Cost is 40.00 plus shipping and includes the target swivel. I just dont market it. I made one for George Gardner so ask him what he thinks. I have used one in comp and like the fact I dont have that big piece of leather hanging off my arm all day. Email or call me.

Wes, you are not kidding Bravo is the defender of gas guns. When he showed up to a class I ran, this last summer, I though crap this may not turn out well. Let me tell you that Gas Gun shot well enough that I sent my old beat up M14 to George Gardner for a rebuild. I also have a M14 that shoots well now. I used one in comp for years but they never held groups before George built me one. Now I am happy. I will still take the bolt gun over a gas gun for field work, but I no longer feel I am just shooting the first round to find the zero of the day.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 14:22:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

My thoughts and prayers will be with you and your wife. I went through it two years ago and we still travel back and forth to Mayo every 3 to 4 months for check ups. We finally got the "OK" to go to 6 months now. You must keep a positive attitude and she needs to do the same too. If you need to talk contact me off line and i will even give you my phone number.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 14:49:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have a new Tikka M695 300 Win., and I reload. What is the best way to break in a new barrel, use full loads or go light to start? Thanks, DEE
David E. Edwards <http.//>
Sugar Land, Texas, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 15:09:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
Fellow Rosterfarians,

I need a source for US Topo maps. I am heading down to Quantico shortly and I have misplaced my Quantico map. Any suggestions?
I need the 1:50,000 scale map.


Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 15:59:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Humor me.

Gore has to draw a two card inside straight to win Florida. I don't see it. He will try something else. This guy's like the robot in the first Terminator movie. Come on Jan 20.

Related link:

U-571 is the best war movie I've seen since 'A Bridge Too Far'. The boarding scene has a real sense of immediacy to it. No place to go out for popcorn.

Sincere best wishes Wes.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 16:28:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr. Undude Miller,

Enjoyed your SOF article. Sounds like you had fun and a sore shoulder.

As far as laser rangefinders, there seems to be a large gap in price ranges. The Nikons, Bushnells, and Leica LRF-800 are in the $300-$500 range and claim to work effectively out to ~800 yds. The latest word, a post on this site, is that Leica fixed the original problems on the LRF-800.

Beyond these models, the next step up is the Leica-Geovid for ~$3k, or the Swarovski RF-1 for ~$3k, and the prices increase dramatically. The next breakpoint seems to be about ~$5k for >1,000 meter performance. Below is a list of sites I have looked at for price, features, performance.

If there are rangefinders in the $1k-$2k price range that are capable of 1,000+ meter capability, I am not aware of them. If they exist, then I'm sure Pablito is aware of them, probably even designed them. :)

Please understand, I am also in the market for a laser rangefinder, and these are just my findings based on web browsing. I have no first-hand experience with anything other than the Leica-Geovid (sweeeeeet piece!!)

Duman <>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 16:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


Go to, then follow the links for topo maps by state.
Many of these can be downloaded.

Duman <>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 16:49:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anybody use those bubble leveling devices on their tactical rifles? I've seen a couple of different variations but not sure whether they're all hype or actually useful.

I've seen: A)one that mounts on the rear of the scope, B)one that mounts on the front of the scope and flips up, C)one that mounts to the scope mounting rail and sticks out to the side somewhat.

Seems to me they would be more useful on a benchrest gun than on something you would use in the field.

Moe Mensale <>
PALM BEACH COUNTING, FL, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 17:11:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe: I have a couple of US Optics bases that have level bubbles mounted on the side of the base. The levels do work but you find yourself trying to cross reference the rifle being level with crosshair positioning. It is much better just to concentrat on a good sight alignment and scope picture than to play around with also leveling the rifle. I rarley use mine, only when bench shooting. When running and shooting a stress course you will probably never even think about looking at it. So if you want one put it on, but you don't really need it. Keep it simple.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 18:43:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

You pretty much covered the laser thing, but there is one piece that is between the bushnells, and the big Leica-Geovids and Swarovski RF-1.

This one is the "Impulse"... they don't advertise too much in the shooting mags, but it's good on tough conditions to 1000-1300 yds, and costs around $1600... it's a nice unit.
Go here!

(I didn't design it ;)


Pablito <>
Still not safe to come out, in the not so safe,, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 19:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tom: the reason I like the ARMS#18 over the BPT is threefold. First off, it's a lower mount, closer to the bore, less cheek piece height required for that spot weld. Second off when you sight with the irons and the scope removed, you're not looking through a tall "trough". Third off, and mine worked great, so don't take this as a personal downing of the BPT, some units have had problems keeping them on the rifles. Like I said, mine worked fine in this respect. The BPT was the answer when Dick couldn't keep production up of the #18, but it was first, and in my mind best. Right now I've got 3 of them in my home, and no more BPT's. Quality and craftsmanship on both is superb, and I wouldn't dissuade anyone from purchasing either one. Both are current issue on the M-25's.

Patron Mike and Sir Wes: thanks for the kudos, and I wear the "defender of gas guns" label with pride, but I'm no guru. Heck, Bill B (DC8) is a real guru on the M-14, as are lots of others. I'm just a high power shooter trying to figure out the sniper game between brewing batches of beer. Gee, sounds like Sam Adams, eh? ;-) But I can draw on lots of bad experiences, and what doesn't work, if that qualifies! HA! And Mike, you gotta admit, until I learned what the heck the new barrel / scope was doing, I wasn't that good out at the class (first half or so). But now I don't carry around my "schoolbook" HA!

As for the 308 / richeous 7.62 NATO, I thought the biggest problem was that of the powder burn rate. I've taken lots of flak for talking about powders of appropriate burn rate in the M-14's, but there's a pretty slim envelope of "great" powders for it, and they're a touch faster in general than what commercial 308's use for max velocity at lower chamber pressures in bolt guns. I can tell you this though, if you put too slow of a powder in a 7.62 gas gun, you'll beat the hell out of the action. Too fast, and you've got lowered velocities because of stopping when the chamber pressures get too high. Of course, this is immaterial if you're using a bolt gun.

Sir Wes: you hang in there, and tell your wife that you both have my best wishes.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
gee, I might blush, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 19:35:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tony "Y"...

You got the level thing backwards... a benchrest shooter has no use for one.
They shoot at close range (100-200 yds), and at that range "cant" has a "non"-effect...
... plus, they shoot from flat benches, with dead-flat sandbags on flat tripods, at targets that are on a straight line... so it's easy to keep the rifle level... it's hard to NOT keep the rifle flat.

But when you are shooting in the field, at targets that aren't square, from a position on dirt, that may be on the side of a hill, with no straight vertical, or horizontal lines, it's very difficult to find a reference for the crosshairs.

If a .308 rifle is tilted the amount of 1 minute on a clock face, it will give a miss due to cant, of 4 feet at 1000yds.


Pablito <>
Still not safe to come out, in the not so safe,, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 19:43:31 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for the correction. I had looked at that unit several months ago, decided to pass, then forgot about it. Good job. :-)


Duman <>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 19:54:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

MANY THANKS.... to everyone who answered my shotgun question, both
on the Roaster and by e-mail.

HISTORY QUESTION.... can anyone suggest a source for info, pics, etc.
dealing with USMC Win. M70's and their use in
SEA. Both online and printed ref's. would be

SIR WES.... good thoughts and prayers go out to you and your wife.
Surgery on the 24th, huh? Does that mean that she has
to fast- and miss Thanksgiving Dinner? Double good
thoughts, then.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING.... to everyone out there. It would be a lot
happier if this election mess was over, and
we were talking about President-Elect Bush!
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 19:58:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


bubble... uh yea.. I sort of discovered that the bubble can sometimes drive you crazy.... it is good for quick sanity check.
What was that phrase you were yelling at me during field fire at storm mountain ?.... sounded something like F*CK THE BUBBLE... JUST SHOOT :)

Ken Hunter <>
NOkesville, Va, USA - Monday, November 20, 2000 at 23:31:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref. Sniper Books

Of all the references and manuals related to sniping which one is better than all the rest and why?

Of all the works of fiction which include a sniper or sniping which one is most accurate?

Has there ever been a conflict where snipers have been critical to the outcome?
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 00:12:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gentlemen: Who makes the bubble-level of choice for field use?
CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 00:34:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gents, on the LRF's, I had a new and improved Leica 800.
Not the first unit, but the latest. I liked the illum reticle, but it was to small to hold still w/out a rest.
It would shoot very well to 8/850 yds.Great at night, as you could see your range.
I was not pleased with daylight performance, and decided to do a side by side with a Bushy 1000.
They were neck and neck to 850 yards, +/- 2-4yds.
However,the Bushy will range much better in the day hours, and not even close on ranging.
In mostly sunlight, some haze 2:00PM, in the afternoon,the Bushy will CONSISTENTLY range targets to 1400 yards, and be repeatable.
This, to me is nothing short of amazing for a $330.00 unit.....
The distributor I bought them from could not believe it, They said they had never had any LRF's to be that good except for the Geovid.
Needless to say, I returned the Leica.
It isn't quite as good as the Leica 800 in total darkness, but I'm not going to use it that way, so what the hey!.
For hunters, the Leica would be preferable, and probably for LEO/Tac/MIl, for extreme lowlight scenarios, and readability.Just my .02's..............

WES, my prayers, and thoughts will be with you, and your precious bride.

Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 01:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am a Air Rifle shooter for my college and i have a question: "What makes you tense up right before a match and begin to shake so bad you cant relax and hold your rifle steady." I need an answer to this because my first two targets are bad and then when i get on my second set the shakes leave and i have to do good to improve on my shooting from the first two. Please help me solve this mind boggling problem. Thanks.
jesse griggs <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 01:21:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
.308 vs. 7.62 x 51

OK, so maybe there is a difference. My brother was right again, damn, I hate that.
J Frazier <>
Law., GA, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 02:39:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

MOe' try the local Bow Shop. They often have little levels that will easily attach to your mount bases. Sometimes that's the easy way out.
Just a thought.
CDC; I loved em too! Man, Those were good shows!
Wes; Hope your wife comes out O.K. Old Pat has been there done that!
Our hearts are with you both.
Lito' thanks for that 4' thing. From now on I'll know what to use for an excuse.
Kevin; Don't overlook the standard Army and Marine Corp manuals. There is probably something more interesting but they "wrote the book" especially the USMC. I don't know about Plaster's book cause I've not read it. Some say OK some don't. Those others in disagreement please do respond also.
Fiction; Stephen Hunter is my favorite Fiction writer. You got to hunt hard to find a mistake there. He is not a Sniper ... but his research is really pretty accurate. Very little show business there I think. Even the "real" Snipers like Ed Kuger made a few assumptions that are not current and were obviously things he believed and remembering back it was current thinking back in those times..although his book is an excellent account. I hope others will reply on line and tell us their thoughts on it too. It would be interesting but being about Snipers I'm not sure it's appropriate here! Hey is it OK to talk about Snipers here?
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 02:52:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bubble levels: YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME. Use'm if you want. I tried them. The LAST thing I want is one more distraction when I'm supposed to be shooting and paying attention to what I'm doing!

On USMC M70's from the Vietnam Era I recommend the Death from Afar Series. Also, Peter Senich's "The one shot war" is descriptive of the equipment used.

Came across a H-S Precision (Winchester Marksman style) stock today for a short action M70. Just so happen to have one and am contemplating what to chamber it in...think I have enough .308's with seven in the safe...;-)


Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 03:26:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Note to all rosterhogs:
For maps and satelite pictures check out,

shotgun? I use the 11-87 with #4s. Mine has never NEVER jammed
have fed everything from bismuth duck loads to factory light payload/high velocity #8s from 10 to 109 degrees F.

jesse, its called adrenaline try 25 to 50 pushups followed by some breathing exercises five or ten minutes before the match.

Wes, your family has our families prayers.

iiii's out
iiiiwanabe <>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 03:41:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a winchester model 70 pre-64 30-06. Does anyone make a synthetic stock for this rifle. It is topped off with a Kahles 2,2-9x42 scope and has been a faithful gun in the family for many years. I am intersted in making it into a mid to long range shooter. Thanks Dean
Dean Dupuis <>
mobile, al, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 05:16:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
I like Beretta, M203 & 1911 pistol
Edwin Michael C Quiboloy <>
Sta. Rosa, Laguna, Philippines - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 05:37:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Badger Ord sent the new ring and base today!!! I can't wait to get my new HTR 308. Thanks for all your help in selecting the best twist... I guess with Thanksgiving and Christmas comming up it might take longer to get it finished but I'm sure it will be worth the wait... Thanks Daren
Daren Yancey <>
Blackfoot, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 06:17:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone know of a good place to get a Kowa spotting scope? One of the silhouette shooters at our range had one with a tripod and nylon cover. Crystal clear, with good eye relief for glasses.
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 06:55:22 (ZULU) (your host address:


LOOK OUT! I bad mouthed spririt levels last year, and darn near got my head Roaster-ripped off for it! Doesn't matter that I had used them for a number of years and had findings mirroring yours. All of mine now sit in parts bins.

PS - My family also will keep you and your wife in our daily prayers.


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 11:37:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Black Berets

This morning at the YMCA a guy who is in the USAR said,"Did you hear? As of June first everybody gets to wear a black beret."

I stopped working out and just stood there.
I finally asked," What do you mean?"

He said,"The whole army is going to wear the black beret after June first."

For a moment I was dumb struck. I was reflecting on what it cost so many men to earn the privelage to wear the black beret and now it was going to be issue. I drew a breath and was about to protest when I thought, "Oh well, I guess it doesn't really matter. Elite is as elite does." (and don't call me Forest)

It's just a hat, I guess.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 12:49:13 (ZULU) (your host address:


Kevin: I couldn't agree with you more. "Earned, not issued" is a phrase that has been flying around. I guess I could live with everyone getting a beret, but can't believe they were dumb enough to give everyone black berets.

I personally think they should use stresscards for flashes.

Hell, we rarely wore our berets because we were always in the field. Pride came from good leadership, hard training and disciplined soldiers. I realize what an affront the issue is to the Rangers, but I am more concerned that Command direction has focused on uniforms and decorations as the key to pride and esprit de corp, rather than the things that really matter.


I know you can get them via civilian purchase. I believe you do it through the Defense Mapping Agency.


Has anyone tried the new "Sciracco" ammo by Remmington? If so, what did you think?


Jeff <>
VT, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 13:44:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


On the bubble levels.....I tried both, and settled on the one that is a scope ring and mounts on the rear of the scope. All the arguements both pro and con are valid. But in my personal opinion, where they really shine as an asset is when your setting up your tripod on uneven ground. Maybe the left leg is in the first notch and the right leg has to be in the third notch, one look at that bubble tells you if your level or not. It can be real hard to judge when your shooting from one uneven position at a target across a valley on another uneven position.

Danny Reever holed up in the republican stronghold of Menallen township <>
Arendtsville , Pa, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 14:29:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Who makes a good .30 cal solid bullet? Something built for penetration and lack of deformation. I think Speer used to sell one with a tungsten carbide core, but I'm not finding it in the catalogs.

Pablito: You're the scope level guy, who sells one for field use?

Florida guys: Is your Supreme Court as much of a Kangaroo Court as reports indicate? They sound like hack/flunkies.

Good editorial link:
CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 15:28:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bubble levels - I'll repeat what I have learned... in a grassy, sloping field, you don't know you are canting without one. Cant impacts accuracy, so a bubble level can have value. I have one on my bolt gun and it does help me. How much more needs to be said?

Symbols of achievement - I have a very limited understanding of this, so please take this from where it comes (I have no military experience)... In the fire service, it seems that those in really high places sometimes get there without ever risking one's arse travelling up the ladder...I don't know how this happens, but it does. It so happens that I was a "rookie" while one of these ahem "leaders" decided that fancy uniforms made the man... we'll...we all had fancy uniforms and shoddy training and bad things happened, people got hurt.

I have since learned to associate fancy uniforms with complacency. I shun every symbol I can.

I do however, take great pride when my turnout gear comes back from the cleaner.... seems the effects of real fire don't come out in the integrity!

Jesse Griggs - Your mind recognizes the stress of competition as something to respond to with the "fight or flight" instinct. The way you handle this stress will determine what kind of man you are .
Learn to love it!

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 15:45:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tom (or anyone else in the know),

"...some lots of 7,62 NATO may yield insufficient headspace and run the risk of slam fires, out of battery ignitions and other such pleasantness."

Let me ask you this, I just had my 700PSS in .308 rechambered for SAMMI minimum specs (including headspace). Sitting in my closet is approx. 700 rnds of 147gr Israeli mil-surplus ammo that I have been using for plinking rocks and such. With the new, tighter chamber on this rifle, what precautions should I take before firing any of this 7.62 stuff? I'd prefer not to find out by touching the trigger and finding the bolt firmly lodged in my throat.

Roger C. <>
Holding my breath while the Florida Hacks decide my future in Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 16:39:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: Great links!! Keep 'em coming!!
Duman <>
Getting an ulcer in, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 16:47:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Election still has me down. What a bunch of crap. I did not just fall off the trruck. The Fla Super Court is going to sit on this until they know how the hand counts/fixing of ballots goes. Then they will make a decision. The hand counts will count if they know Gore would win. If the Demo's cant fix it then they wont count. Just my opinion.

On Bubbles, I have never used them, but I see no reason not to. Just dont count on it for everything because when you need it it will fail, just like a every other device that can break!

On Black Berets, what a bunch of crap. All I want is an invisible baton and anti- video tape clothing.LOL Everyone is special now aren't we all happy. This reminds me of the show South Park when the Japanese try and take over the world by distracting us with false praise. Seems like this comedy was written by the same guys that write for Comedy Central.

For all that have asked I talked with James Jarrett today and it looks like the meals will be available for the summer classes. Dates should also be good. I am looking forward to getting to New Mexico. I love that place, just wish they had swung the vote for Bush.

George Gardner has scolded me for not telling him what makes the Field Rock and what makes the LE Rock Rifles different. Here it is for all. The rifles are the same except the Field has a fixed ten power and the LE has a varible power. Matter of fact I used a US Optics Tactical Ten on the Field and an IOR 2.5x10 on the LE Rock. Both shoot one hole at 200 yards. I get 2625fps out of the 175 BlackHils out of the 22" bbls. They are set to go. The LE Model is going to James Jarret and I will keep the Field. That figures the 5th SF guy goes for the LE model and the LE guy goes for the Field model. Talk about confused. If I had huge bucks I would have one of each but the Nighthawk still holds the LE Duty.

Stan/Bravo, dude tried calling you this weekend but no luck. Take care my friend.

JR, I have been shooting the crap out of the 338 Lapua. I really like it. Now it is time to write something. I am thinking of going for a real long range article and sending to SOF. They have published the one on the Barrett XM107 and excepted the one on the US Optics 10X Marine Corp, so I think we can get you the credit deserved for the fine 338 Lapua you guys made.

Gooch, please get ahold of me.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 17:20:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill, 7.62 NATO Bolt Guns and His IMI Ball:

The only issue in a bolt gun here is, will the bolt close on the ammo in question? If it does, they you are good ta' go. Inducing slamfires and the like in a boltgun is virtualy impossible unless there is some realy, REALY gross defect in the rifle.

However, I have seen some of the older Israli surplus (the type that has been rattling around in the back of a halftrack in southern Lebanon for two years, then retumbled and sold here) that was extreemly dangerous. I was on a range a couple of years ago with a guy a few benches down shooting one of those cut-down Indian SMLES in 7.62 NATO/.308. Just as I was taking up the slack on my trigger I hear this wierd "PAF!!" sound instead of a normal report from down the line. I look up and the guys is standing there holding his forehead. When I walk down to investigate, I find a stunned shooter with a forehead that looks like it got dusted with birdshot, with little spots of blood. After insuring he was basicly OK, I examined his rifle and ammo. The rifle seemed okay and the ammo was the typical mixed lots IDF surplus featuring an incredible variety of headstamps, much of it either IMI or USGI dating from the '60s and '70s. The round that had screwed him was headstamped FN 54, and the case head has split longitudinaly from one of the flash holes right up through the web. That sort of failure is directly related to case head metalury and integrity and is considered in ordnance circles to be catastrophic in nature, as one such failure can lead to a multi-million round lot of ammo to be unceremoniously scrapped. Very bad mojo.

So, I dont trust that Israli surplus stuff anymore. If nothing else, make sure that you pull all the FN 54 ammo out. That stuff is evil.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 17:31:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bubble Levels:

I have the little B-Square gizzie that clamps on to an unused bit of your Weaver/STANAG base on my 700 PSS. Its cheap, compact, and rugged. By my way of thinking, when you set up to take the shot, you give it one glance to establish what a known-level field of view looks like through your scope, then ignore it. Glancing back-and-forth as you try to take the shot strikes me as being a bit nuts and being more likely to cause problems than solve them.

In the future, I will probably fabricate my own such devices. Gun Parts Corporation sells the little bubble levels that are used in the grenade launching sight for the Garand and M14 new in the wrapper for $1.50. It has a steel housing and a mounting plate to take screws. Neato, and el-cheapo.

aka "The Cheapskate" :)

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 17:42:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Undude: Yeah, the Florida Supreme Court acts like the Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee. They'll probably try to stall utill the last second then "rule" for Gore. Unless Gore is able to game it right, The Florida Legislature, The U.S. House Of Represenatives then The U.S.Supreme Court get a shot at it. Getting by all that would take some pretty tricky open-field running. They've proven they are tricky.

If it gets past that, we go off the map and start looking at Tom Clancey / Alan Drury scenarios. History if full of them.

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 17:59:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wild Bill: don't talk too much about Stephen Hunter, I'm working on the last 50 some-odd pages of "a time to hunt". I've read everything that he's written with the exception of one, which is in the stack. For anyone wanting good fiction, I recommend Bob the Nailer too.

Black Berets: I guess it had to come at some time or another. I recall the hoopla about the cadets at VMI (or was it MMI?) having the blood stripe on their dress blues. They didn't give in, although I recall the Commandant getting in on the act, don't remember which side.

Patron Mike: been going and doing lots lately, I'll try you tonight. It's good news on the eats! LT does it up right. I'm guessing I'll be in the tent again this next year though. I'm with you on the "election process", disgusting at best. Nobody follows their Constitution anymore.

Tom: It must be the way the ammo was kept or just limited to a small batch. I use the berdan primed FN NATO brass myself, I get it in battle packs, primer laquered, and load the 175 SMK's in 'em myself. They work great for me, but they're late 80's stamped too. Good stuff!

CDC: off the map? Tom Clancey scenarios? I don't get it. I've got a confession to make. While looking for "Essay on the Manners and Spirit of Nations", I came across an old tattered friend, and threw that on the stack instead. Thus Spake Zarathustra. Now there's some good reading! In my opinion, nothing will beat Ayn Rand, but this is next best. It's "up" right after the next book, Unexpected Consequences. I've been told that it's "required reading" for my type.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the splitting banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 19:17:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Marius: contact me via email... you need an updated password for your scweb mail..

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 19:28:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: A Tom Clancey scenario as follows. Domestic unrest, blockaded cities, military with divided loyalities then China jumps the Taiwan Straights. Toss in Iraq and Iran. Mucho excitement.

If you want to toss around book titles, we can do that. Bring your water-wings.

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 19:52:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Its "Unintended Consequences" and its outstanding. I just finished it last month. It will really make you think. I have heard that the author is being sued over it. If the "Turner Diaries" was the blue print for radicals on blowing up Federal buildings, then this is the guide book on how to rid the country of ATF agents and other crooked officials.
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 20:15:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
I got to fiddle with an Armalite AR50 today. The thing is impressive that is darn certain. That muzzle brake is quite amazing, my first impression of it was that an AR50 owner could rent out the rifle to a family of field mice as a duplex for them to live in. The muzzle brake is MASSIVE.

The whole dang rifle is massive, drives me batty that this gun shop has had in two 50s in the past month and I haven't been able to buy either of them. First one was a Barrett single shot bolt action for somewhere in the neighborhood of 3500 and the second was this Armalite AR50 with an asking price of 2700.

One of the guys at the shop has two AR50s coming, one for him and the other one for his father. He's got two bases coming with them, one is a 15MOA base and I think I remember him saying the other base is a 50MOA base.

If I had the money I would have bought this thing right there on the spot. The Barrett lasted for a whole week and this Armalite is going a bit stale as it has been there a week already.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 21:05:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, thats it. As of the second issue of "The Accurate Rifle" I think the mag officially sucks. If the next issue sucks as bad, I'm cancelling my suscription.

Who cares about antiquated .40 caliber black powder cartridges. I don't care about antiques, Lets move forward into the future. No friggin' mouse guns either...and someone actually spent time and money accurizing a mini-14!! Next someone will write an article about archery or spear throwing at 500 yards, Why not boomarangs!

Get real.

Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 21:51:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC..Sure it is mostly Southern Kangaroo Democrats down here...Republicans are here, but the Kangaroos here think this is a "democracy". Humph.

Hell with It...I just want to go shoot. F those silly bast***'s Lets talk about .40 cal. blackpowder cartridges. That is better than these lying cheating liberal socialist POS's floating in the swamp of lies down here.

Kangaroos in the Florida Outback....sound like good shootin' there mate!

Cory <>
Florida, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 22:02:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Sniper SQT

There once were soldier's manuals called SQT manuals. These books contained a full description of each task a soldier of a given MOS and grade was expected to do. Each task was completely described along with the conditions under which the task was to be performed and the standards by which that task was to be measured.

Question: Is there a SQT manual for U.S.Army snipers? If so how do I go about getting one?

I understand that sniper is not a MOS but I was hoping that someone might have taken the time to assemble such a book.


Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 22:12:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: There are fairly few good solids on the market for 30 cal. The Speer tungsten solid WAS available in 338/275gn for awhile. It was canceled in 1998, they were going for about $75/box 25 IIRC. This might be good for a Lapua at close range because they had a fairly poor ballistic shape. Thig is you need a blunt nose in order to penetrate well on hard targets(steel) but you need a windscreen to give a good ballistic shape. Look at some photos of APCBC rounds for an idea of what I'm talking about. The Barnes solids are pretty good from what I've heard, I've not used them myself in 30 caliber. In 160gn 7mm they are resonably accurate, but are very sensitive to seating depth, and they foul fairly rapidly, but I imagine this is barrel dependant. I've not tried then against hard targets but they should be better than FMJ's, but not as good as steel core. I have worked with 165gn(nominal) pulled steel core M2AP bullets in 308,30-06, 300Win mag, and I'm starting to play with them in my new 300 Weatherby. I imagine at 3300fps, they should be fairly impressive. Accuracy is OK, around 1-1/4inch at 100yds from my hunting guns in 30-06 and 300Win mag. Again, I have not really tried these extensively on hard targets, due to range considerations, but the 30-06 versions, 2750fps, did impressive work on manhole covers on the one chance I've had to use them. Accuracy is not going to be as good as with a true match projectile, but at the ranges where they have the velocity to penetrate like you expect, they will be accurate enough. I'm tempted to start testing my handloads that use tungsten drill blanks and 30 cal sabots, but that's for another time. Semper Fi...
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 22:13:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Federal Supreme Court Precedent:

CDC' <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 22:16:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just reading up on the posts from yesterday and the 19th.

I read a post about .308 for home use... uh, bad idea.

I have been experimenting with building steel targets for long range use and have been suprised how thick of a plate a Federal Match 175 will penetrate.

It will go clean through the following mild steel:
3/8 up to 700 yards
1/2 up to 400 yards and it will almost pop through at 550 to 600.

Keep in mind this is mild steel plate.
I wonder how many pieces of drywall and 2x4 that would equate...

I like my 870 with T shot, works for me and i wont vent every house on the block if i need to deter some crook from doing bad things.
Jeff <>
San Jo, Ca, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 22:19:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am mounting a leupold tactical M1 to a Remingtom Mdl 700P. I have looked at the leupold mounts and I want something heavier. I do not like the way the leupold front ring locks in(like a dove tail). Do you have any suggestions on an all steel mount and rings.
Mike Brown <>
USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 22:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pat: I'm in contact with some folks who know the author personally, one on this site. Yes, the ATF has attempted entrapment (standard ploy for them) and other stuff including intimidation of the booksellers as well. This ended when a bounty was put on the heads of the agents (for their ID only, not their life) of $15K if I remember. The constitution doesn't mean anything to those guys, as proven by their continued attrocities and crimes.

CDC: the only reason I mentioned that book was because of our previous discussion on Voltare. I assumed that this was the one we were referring to, at least it was what I meant. I'm sorry you feel defensive around me, I'm really a nice guy. I meant what I said. I prefer Nietzche to Voltare. Nothing more. I just wanted a little understanding of what you meant in your previous post, I thought maybe you and I weren't as far separated philisophically as I thought. I suppose my gut instinct was correct. And although I have been wrong before, I have no fear of swimming in the deep. The water wings went a long time ago. I don't do institutes of higher learning now except for enjoyment, my own edification, and I'm not persuing a doctorate either. You may have me, but that's no reason to be personally insulting.

And to lighten the mood "never trust freedom when it's not in your hand, 'cause everybody's fighting for the promised land" Axl Rose ;-)
looking for the split in the banana republic, formerly known as the great, USA - Tuesday, November 21, 2000 at 23:40:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scope mounts for 700P. Only choice is Badger Ordnance. Go to I got an email the other day from the owner that he has a fresh supply of short action bases in stock.

Out here
Gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 00:29:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was recently looking through the past posts, and saw some suggestions on base shimming that included the Armament Technologies' 15Min tapered shim kit. After looking to purchase one, I found that the item had been discontinued (at I want to get my Rem700VS past the present 425 yards that my Leupold 4.5x14 provides in elevation adjustment. Are there any comparable substitutes, or will I have to do a "custom" job with beer cans?
Need some help.
Sheets <>
Caldwell, ID, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 00:31:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
On the black beret. You notice in the USMC Marines are proud to just be a "Marine". We all wore the same uniform plus or minus a few merit badges. Soldiers should just be proud to be Soldiers and get over the elitism's.

Just my take on it.

In a real pissy mood tonight.

Out here
Gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 00:48:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the shotgun issue, I just ran a qualification course with my 870 and some of the Remington L-E Reduced Recoil OO buck. BIG - BIG - BIG Smile! Good, No GREAT patterns and it didn't hurt my itsy bitsy poopsy wooopsy little shoulder either! HA!

Gooch is right get a Badger Base & Rings or Nothing!


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 01:20:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike Brown,

I recently got ahold of a set of Badger Max50 Rings and Bases for my 700PSS .308 and am very happy. The base is a 20MOA tapered design, so you should really be able to reach out and touch someone with the extra elevation adjustment. You can pick them up at or at which is where I bought mine. They're definitely worth the money, IMHO.

Roger C. <>
Surrounded by Gore-lovers with all kinds of shit stuck in their faces in Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 01:57:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

FL supreme court decision to be announced at 21:45 eastern. Cross your fingers and anything else you have that can be crossed.

Bravo Brew in hand and hoping like hell, Bolt OUT!

Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 02:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just announced, the Fla Supreme Court has reached a decision, they will go live at about 21:45 Eastern we go.

Best Regards,
Bill B <>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 02:25:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sheets: No on the beer can trick. Wrong expansion coefficient. Too soft. Too many moving parts. Makes your tube alignment iffy. You would have to lap for days and it is still unstable. I'll defer to Gooch on the Badgers. He's one of the wise men. I'm making do with Baer's. Sinclair sells them as Lightforce or something for $65.

Duman: Thanks. I'm glad the links are being read.

I'm giving the Florida Supremes 1 in 4 of getting it right.

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 02:41:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 02:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Fucked again


Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 02:48:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Traitor (treasoner) Orrin Hatch actually got it right this time. It was a rather surprising decision based on the separations of powers being overturned. Please note for future reference, this is what's called "legislation through the judiciary". It's contemptable, and was NEVER approved by the founding fathers. This is the courts giving themselves extra power likened to the executive order, which only is valid for the presidential council. The consitutional issues that have been totally ignored by this "decision", well, I think we know what "courts" mean.
Prof. William Forrester, Cornell law school: "The Court has assumed, gradually, the role of deciding the problems on its own and ...the American people and their selected officials gradually have accepted the Court as the political instrument for lawmaking."
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
watching the banana republic split, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 03:10:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sinclair is carrying a new tapered Leupold STD Base for Remington long and short actions for only $18.00. Not a bad way to start out and it will work fine.
dan <>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 03:27:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, the Fla Supreme Court has ruled that Gore should be allowed to steal this election. This whole thing is based on the false notion that some of the Fla voters had been confused, and called their congressman to ask for help.
The facts are that Gore's campaign hired a telemarketing firm to call voters to ask them if they were confused, and offered suggestions as to what they should do. Odd, that they only did this in the heavily democratic counties. This was not reported at all by Gore's media.
Next, the Gore campaign under Gore's direction, produces a 5 page report of how to disqualify the overseas military ballots. These ballots, now cannot be counted as the time for their certification has passed. The Fla Atty Gen said, " these military ballots should be counted", knowing that in fact they cannot be counted. He was trying in vain I think, to save his party.
Yeah, we lost tonight, but the Dems, and the Clinton-Gore media are taking a big hit. People are organizing to reform television news, and how they are allowed influence the outcome of an election.
If Gore becomes President, and I think he will, look for some Dems to switch to the Republican Party. It is bad, but it will get a lot worse for the Dems.
Sorry for the political post, but this is just too.important to just not talk about it. I been writing to my Senators, and Congressman, and will continue to express my concerns to them. That is what we're supposed to do.

Best Regards,
Bill B <>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 03:29:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

I f anyone is looking for a great deal on a laputa varixIII 3.5-10x M1 mil dot click on my name! This is not my auction and I would be buying one if I had the cash. This auction ends Nov-21-00 22:21:17 PST and is offering them for $575! With no bids.
Chad Ellis <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 03:31:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
Chad, you need to change your name. See post below.

Down, but not out, Bolt :(
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 04:01:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was out target shooting today with a 1946 Russian M-44 fireing a 7.62 x 54r FMJAP round. We only had about about a 100 yards to fire but the M-44 had know problems hitting the mark an average of 3 out of 5 shots. Does anyone have any information on just how far these rifles are effective to. I also would like to know about the MAS 36 in 7.5x54 and the ones rechambered for 308 win.
Matthew Smith <>
Colmesneil, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 04:01:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bolt, I had no idea how much trouble I would cause by geting Mrs. Chad pregnate!!LOL
Chad <>
praying to God that the US Supreme court will let GW win, in OK, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 04:23:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Israli 7.62 NATO failure:

I have no doubt that most of that Israli surplus stuff is OK, and I am sure it was all damn fine when it left the factory. However, this stuff had been issued out and then taken back up, so you have NO idea what conditions it was stored under or for how long. Some of this stuff I have been around exibited some other strange behaviors as well, though nothing as severe as with this one incident. Also, I am no statistitian, but feel than when you are messing with so many lots of random ammo jumbled together, you assume additional risk that you will encounter a defective lot. I can think of no storage factor that could result in the failure I witnessed, so I assume that particular lot of FN 54 was bad, and in a very bad way. Thats the kind of failure that dissasembles rifles and f'ing blinds and kills people. WAY bad mojo.

Matthew Smith, 7.62x54R and 7.5 MAS:

Both cartriges are roughtly in the .308 class, so you can expect them to perform comperably to .308, all else being equal. Both cartriges are inherantly quite accurate, particulary the 7.62x54R. Both the MAS 36 and Mosin Nagant carbines yield milsurp bolt gun-class accuracy, something on the order of 2 MOA. The MAS 36 has pretty good sights and a trigger that has at least some potential to be tuned (something on a par with the 98 Mauser issue trigger, excepting the lack of any aftermarket replacements). The Mosin has an Godawful, pitiful trigger that is untuneable, so far as I can tell, and primitive sighting equipment. On the upside, the ammo situation for 7.62x54R is vastly better than 7.5 MAS. For the latter, you can get a) 25-35 year old military ball or b) underpowered Portugese commercial stuff, both of which are expensive. In 7.62x54R, you can get 14 different flavors of fresh ball (some of which is quite good) and even a true match load from Sellier & Bellot, plus hunting ammo from Norma. Logisticaly, the Mosin wins hands down.

Aviod the converted MAS 36s (and MAS 49-56s, as well) like blued steel ebola. The action is strong enough but the barrels dont have enough meat in them to do a proper set back and rechamber job, so a lot of them are running around with buggered up chambers which yield bad extraction problems and a few have breaching problems that result in case head failures ,which results in the magazine floorplate, follower and contents being launched out the bottom of the rifle. Not fun. If somebody did not put a brand-new, properly-fitted barrel on it, run. It will hurt you. The "wizards" at Century Arms were definatly dabbling in black magic when they thought this one up...

will be attempting to fit a 26" 1-10" Douglas in .308 to a MAS 49-56 shortly...SCREW a M25/DMR. :)

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 05:28:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

A sad state of affairs tonight brothers.
Don't even feel like going to the range.
Lady liberty has been raped and murdered and they're
going to do the OJ schuffle right out the f-ing door.
I think they're arogance is the worst of all.
I'm going to toss my class A's in the gutter at the end of the driveway in the morning.
Liberty Outfitters <>
Pikes Peak, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 06:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Need help with 7mm-08 that Earl Liebatriel built.
Jeff Wojcik <>
Stevens Point, Wi., USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 06:01:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Need help with 7mm-08 that Earl Liebatriel built.
Jeff Wojcik <>
Stevens Point, Wi., USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 06:04:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
LEUPOLD 3.5-10x40 M1, Mil-Dot Reticle, Long Range, 30mm

Did anyone hear anything bad about this leupold scope?
I heard that leupold make a scope with a 30mm tube but
had 1 inch internals, was this the scope?

John <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 06:34:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone see Gore speak tonight after the Florida Kangaroo Court decision? Is it just me, or does hearing the guy talk make you want to drag him behind the capitol building and smack the crap out of him? This whole situation is FUBAR.

In the words of the commisioner, "Oh Batman, oh Batman, where will it all end?"

Roger C. <>
Cleaning my guns in Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 06:35:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have a Remington PSS in .308 with detachable magazine
the barrel is touching the stock. It shifted over to the right side
and is now contact the barrel. Everything is tight and torque down. What do you think caused this? and what do you recommend i should do to fix it...or were to send it to
have it fix with out getting rape. Kind a low on cash$$ right now..


USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 06:54:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sheets; My 4.5X14's take me to 900 yards with standard mounts. Check the number of clicks and see. Maybe you will want to change mounts or something. The 4.5X14 Normally has a lot of come up standard.

John the 3.5X10 is a little short on vertical travel as a rule. The other thing is. The clicks may not be as positive as some other scopes made by Leupold. Usually the 3.5X10 with 30mm tube has more adjustment(check their home page). My tests are based on watching each click in the range change and backlash resetablilty of short and long changes. (It probably varies with individual scopes) The 3.5X10 is not my favorite but check it out with a good bore sighter and watch each click. Also check the power ring impact shift. If it's bad you will see it. The Bushnell Bore sighter will show all this to you.

This situation is much more serious than most people can fathom!
The Judicary is now legislating and the Consitituion is on it's last leg. Tea Party anyone! Perhaps there are some votes in Florida that need to be dumped in Miami Harbor!

Goochman; The hat thing sucks like everything else with the U.S. Military today. I think the Marine corp is the last bastion of Liberty defenders we have. No disrespect for those service the Army but the "leadership has gone to hell in a handbag". Before the incoming starts... My Father deceased was a 30 year Army man! The quote is from him!
We all know there is no way either side can give up on thie election dispute. Congress itself will have to take the bull by the horns and rule on this one. As long as the Constitituion holds it is their perogitive. Bravo, I just read your post.. I see you're saying the same thing about the Legistaton by courts. Gentlemen there are Sappers in the wire! Guns up!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 07:33:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just a thought - why don't you guys run Military voting like us Canuks. March the troops to a building set up as a .... voting station... tada all collected and sent back to US - Problem solved Gore out!!!!!!!

On bases - Richard Near of Kindersly Sask. Canada ph #306 463-9777.
He makes them for the SEALs, Our JTF, RCMP ERT etc.
Sinister Dave recommended him to me, and I have never looked back
He makes different tapers up to 60MOA fro both Long and Short Action Remingtons - his prices are very competitive - and gives active military (probably LE) a break (even for your personal guns)

Hey if y'all are seperating can a couple of provinces join the new republic? Class III - Shall Issue, no registration taxes - we'd amalgamate only the good laws from each. e.i no silly >16 rules, and we don't consider the 40mm M203 to be anything bad (no permit no nothing) but dump our mag laws and full auto prohibitions, 14" 870 is just another shotgun etc.

Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 08:15:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Florida Kangaroo Court ruling was expected. If they weren't going to do this, they wouldn't have injected themselves into the process in the first place.

Gore's big three hurdles are coming. Four if you count the reaction in the country if his sleazy little power grab gets through the institutions.

I wonder if the boys in the tassled loafers think they have that figured?

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 12:54:31 (ZULU) (your host address:


The closest such animal I am aware of is in the Scout/Sniper ARTEP manual. It lists a series of FTX scenarios and evaluation guides that aren't bad.

SQT was done away with a while back, but, I hope to see the development of sniper doctrine advance in the Army and I believe it slowly is. I think that enough CDRs have seen what an asset they are, particularly in some of the recent missions like Bosnia, where their surveillance and precision fire capabilities take on increased importance, that there might well be more focus on them in the future.

Happy Hunting!

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 13:12:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

John Sacongo...

This is a common problem with Rems with synthetic stocks. It comes from the machinging of the aluminum insert, and the front part just behind the recoil lug, not fitting the round section of the receiver.
It's not the stock makers fault... it's a combination that begs for hand fitting, which Remington doesn't do.

Best option... If you know how to glass bed, then take a Dremmel tool, and remove enough aluminum from the front of the block so the barrel will be straight in the channel, and glass bed it.

Second best... call H-S Precision and ask them if they can deal with it (they make the stocks)... if so, send them the whole gun.

Third option... take it to a local "Good" gunsmith, and have them hog out the aluminum (as per above), and glass bed it.

Very last option... send it to Remington. In your letter to them, you must state FIRMLY, that it is to be fixed at the Remington factory, and NOT sent out to a subcontractor for repair.


Pablito <>
Really bummed-out in the politically crooked, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 13:35:04 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have to agree with some of yours and your fathers criticisms of the Army in recent years. Coed basic training, stresscards, can't swear, drink to excess, be politically correct at all times etc. and zero defect allowed. It has hurt us badly and while I respect that soldiers follow the policies they are directed by CIVILIAN leadership to follow, I am also very disappointed at what has happened.

Remember when Clinton took office the number of senior leaders who retired? Thats as much backtalk as we are allowed to give. We take oaths to obey the CIVILIAN leadership.

As far as excluding the Army, or any other branch of service from the
"defenders of liberty," I don't buy that at all. The Army, Air Force and Navy are currently defending liberty in Bosnia, Colombia, and countless other places. Doing so with little pay, little thanks and plenty of criticism. Not to mention the Optempo has never been higher in the history of our country. Thats another CIVILIAN directed issue.

I am a balding man of 35 and fighting a beer gut. I did 8 years in the Army and was in 4 different little actions. Despite not having time to do so, I stay in the Reserves and if needed, I will be there, no doubt with every other soldier I served with despite our age of physical ability. And trust me, they call on teh Reserves and Nat'l Guard alot these days. Not for the money, hell, this year I didn't get paid for 5 out of 6 months before I went to the IG. It is not a financial asset to me, it is a financial burden to be in.

So I take exception to your comment that the Marines are the only defenders of liberty in this country.

Hell, US Military aside, just look at the postings on the duty roster.
There are plenty of defenders of liberty who don't wear uniforms.

There is so much doom and gloom talk right now we should all remember. This country has come through far worse times and far worse social conditions and we always pulled through before and will always pull through in the future.

In the immortal words of Charlie Daniels "This lady may have stumbled, but she ain't never fell!" People might not see it now, but our country will simply emerge stronger from the current social issues, as it did after the foolishness of the 1960s.

OK, I feel better now! And as always, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter what it may be.

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 13:35:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wow...Why am I not surprised by the Demonrats in our Supreme Socialist Kourt here in Florida. It is looking more like the time is coming for nationwide peaceful assembly and protest.

Great post on the MAS boltgun, I want an FR-F2 for my collection, anybody seen one around?

CDC, you sound like you were suprised by the Supreme Socialists decision here in sunny but cold Florida? Dude, All my life here in Floridastan, I knew when it went to the Kourts that that was the eventual outcome. Kathrine Harris was/is right, and it is her call by state law. But laws only apply to honest people.

Well I do have to revise my earlier statement about TAS, The WHOLE magazine does not suck, there are some individually good articles in it. the one about the Shoot in the Swiss Alps was good, as was the one by C. Cutshaw reference the Ed Brown Rifle. The rest blows chunks.

Cory <>
Panama City, Florida, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 14:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

I don't disagree with what you said, only that this country is in a hell of a lot more trouble now than in the "60s" The moral fiber of this country is getting as bad as it has ever been. Its a "ME,ME" society and the rights of a few outway the rights of the majority. No one has any respect or a conscience anymore, if you do something bad, its not your fault, no one takes responsibility for anything they do there is always an excuse.

I fear we will go a long ways down yet before it gets any better. I only hope we don't wait to long before we all finally stand up and say, enough is enough. I don't have any answers either only a lot of questions and hope that I will live to see the day when we finally go back to being a nation with moral fiber.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 14:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE: Israeli 7.62 in SAMMI minimum bolt gun

So, the consensus of opinion seems to be: be careful. I guess I can dig that. What are some warning signs that the stuff is dangerous? For instance, before I had the PSS rechambered the ammo shot fine, but every few rounds the bolt would be more difficult to fully lift than normal after a shot. Is this a sign of overpressure? The primers didn't look any different than the other expended brass when this happened. Weak cases maybe? Personal safety is parmount (I'm ugly enough as it is without any self-inflicted disfigurements), but I also don't want to damage my rifle. I'm sorry if this line of questioning seems painfully ignorant, but I'd rather ask and feel stupid than act and *be* stupid.

Took a look at the headstamps this morning and they all say TZ 80. The cans it came in say LOT 3-80. All rounds are wrapped in 20rnd cardboard boxes, all labeled LOT 3-80.

Roger C. <>
You bet your ass I carry concealed in Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 14:25:16 (ZULU) (your host address:


Saw your solicitation for prayers for your wife.

Commo has been made.

Best Wishes,

Jeff <>
VT, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 14:47:01 (ZULU) (your host address:


I'm with Pat (Mr "HA!" himself).

Our media, our courts, our public schools, the disaster of the inner cities, the "PC" movement... all still have the mark (as in muddy footprints) of the "Me-me-me-me-me first cuz I'm entitled, and screw you" attitudes that are residual of "the foolishness of the 1960s".

Those years have scarred our schools, our courts, and our society forever.

This Florida mess (and the asshole in charge of it) is a typical example of "Me first, I want mine, and I don't care who gets hurt, or who pays the price, or what laws are twisted.... I w-a-n-t m-i-n-e N-O-W!"

Pablito <>
Hey Sarge... is there any space left in "Area 51"??, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 14:49:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Roger C and IMI Ball:

That ammo ought to be just fine. The stuff I am talking about are a jumbled up mix of older lots that, literaly, may have spend time hanging out the side of a Browning someplace during the Yom Kippur War. Some of it came in on links with sand stuck in it. IMI ball still in its factory boxes should be excellent stuff.

The stiff bolt lift may not be related to pressure. Sometimes tight chambers will take a given round just fine and then cause additional extraction forces after firing. Shurest way to check for excess pressure this side of a ballistics laboratory is to mic the case head before and after firing. If the case head isnt swelling up, it isnt seeing grossly excessive pressures. It's supposed to expand some small number of thousandths but not too many, cant remember the exact figures. Checking for primer cratering and the like is somewhat useful as well but not nearly as reliable.

BTW, headspace in my 700 PSS is suprisingly TIGHT, about .001" over GO using SAMMI gauges. No problems for me on that front at least, though it can be a bit snug closing the bolt on some M80 Ball and M852 Match.

John and the Badly Bedded 700 PSS:


You have my sympathies, brother. Mine was just as FUBARed as yours when I got it, and had a buggered-up crown to boot. I had to reglass it in MarineTex. In my case, I made a living as a gunsmith for a few years and knew how to glass it myself. It is NOT that hard a thing to do as gunsmithing operations go, it just requires proper technique and good choice of materials. The HS Precision stock as made for Remington is an excellent foundation for such a bedding job but it goes a lot easier if you have a milling machine because of having to inlet into aluminum. A Dremel tool would probably want to seek union represenation after such abuse. :)

You can sent it to one of the known-good bolt gun builders that others here have used or you can find a local guy that knows what he is doing, which aint allways easy. Hint: if he uses plain Acra-Glas Gell or (shudder) MicroBed, run. The guy aint serious about building a tactical gun you can bet your life on. The bedding compounds to look for are Bisonite, Marintex, various flavors of Devcon, or equivilants. REAL ,professional compounds, not crap. You want stuff that sets up as hard as a rock and then dosent crumble under the pounding. The Bronwells SteeBed stuff gets some good reviews, but I havent used it myself.

In my book, MarineTex is a most remarkable combination of ease of use and hard set up. Easy as AcraGlas Gell to apply, sets up like Bisonite. Really amazing. Not forgiving of iffy metal prep, though. It will lock the action into the stock BIG TIME if you screw that up. For beginners, you might want to do a couple of milsurp bolt guns using MicroBed first . Very easy to use and fogiving of the little errors in claying and application of release agent that beginners make. Just not very durable, IMHO. Others defend it, but I have seen it fail under hard use, especailly at high temperatures.

If you want some pointers on how to it yourself, I'd be happy to try and help.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 15:14:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory: "The Florida Kangaroo Court ruling was expected. If they weren't going to do this, they wouldn't have injected themselves into the process in the first place."

Repeat: "..was expected."

That's consistent with my pre announcement post.

All: I got a hundred bucks that says Gore is not sworn in as Prez in 2001. Or I'll bet one of my rifles against one of equal value. We'll do all the transfer stuff to make it legal.

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 15:24:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

John, thanks for asking this question. I too am the owner of a badly bedded remington. Mine is a vssf. Not knowing what to do I just opened up the stock channel a little on the side that was close to contactin the barrel.

Does anyone know if this problem is limited to the stocks supplied to remington or if it is just typical of H&S?

I also have started to notice a large bit of deformation along the forend where my harrris bipod is attached. Has anyone else had this problem? Do I have the bipod too tight? It is at 65 in pounds.

Thanks for all of your advice.

Chad <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 15:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

I haven't posted in a while, just been taking in all the this political mumbo-jumbo. I am not sure if anyone knows where this silliness is going to end. This will undoubtably be the first, but not the last, presidential race decided in a court of law. Get used to it. If you don't like the outcome of something, just sue to make it come out your way. Isn't that the Amerikan way.

For a funny spin on the Algore crap, try the following site address.

C. R. Stoddard <>
PC, OK, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 16:34:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff; please take no offense but reread my post. There should be an interpretation of "bastion of Liberty defenders" as opposed to "denfender of Liberty" When I spoke it was of the whole group from the Pentegon down to man in the fox hole. Nothing was meant to imply there are no other defenders, if that were true it would include myself since I am not a marine. It is the errosion of the dedication of command or the manipulation of it that I speak of.
CDC; I hope you are right about the inauguration. You are forever the optimist or you are forever the naive and at this point old friend, I don't know which. I hope coolness prevails in the matter and it can be settled off the streets but I don't see how it can. It's high noon for Law and Order in Florida and everywhere in this great land.
It is a test for us as a free people, how we do is yet to be seen.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 16:48:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tom Simpson...

Hey guy... wassamatta wit the Dremmels down in SC?
I've got so many miles on mine, I don't think don't make replacment parts for it anymore, and it'll eat-up the front end of an aluminum bedding block in a few minutes... just use rotory carbide cutters, and make a cloud of aluminum foil in no time.

I'm not one of those that put-down "Micro bed".
Though I don't use it anymore (but would, if I had to)... I bedded some guns with it when I did my apprenticeship in the 60's, and after 35 years, they are still rock hard, and it has never failed, or crumbled.
My current favorite is the Brownells "Steel-bed". It's very full of stainless steel, and thick as window puddy, so it doesn't dribble all over the place.
I've done the last three guns (two of them in H-S "M-24" stocks), and the stuff is terrific.
It has "0" shrink, so you must be carefull with release agent, and clay/puddy... it shows no quarter, (and "takes prisoners" ;)

Chad (not the hangin' kind ;)...
>>"Does anyone know if this problem is limited to the stocks supplied to remington or if it is just typical of H&S?"<<

Neither... it is the result of trying to make a round, concave, aluminum cylinder shaped bedding block by H-S (at a price that you can afford), to fit the round cylindrical action made by Remington... and the added effect of the tolerences of both pieces.
If you take machinist's blue, or lamp black, and coat the action, you will find that the action contacts the block in only two or three very small, millimeter sized, places.
If you try to file those places, it will contact in two or three other places... even with hand fitting, you CAN'T get these two parts to fit well.
From the factory, the Remington/H-S stock combination, fit alright for the average shooter, but if you're building a fine match, or high-end tactical riffle, then you need to chew it out, and then glass-bed it. There's no other way to get that perfect, rock stable fit.

Winchester also uses the H-S stocks... but Winchester glass-beds the stocks for you ;)... and the guns shoot very well out of the box.

If you want to do it yourself, drop me an e-mail, and I'll give you instructions...

Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 17:22:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

I think (and hope) you're right.

I think your guns are safe...

I'm not going to put up a gun, and bet against myself... if I won, it would mean I'd loose it (and all the rest) anyway... and those that hope gore will be in, don't own guns ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 17:33:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dimpled Chad?

DIMPLED CHAD?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Is this what the future of this once-great country has come down to?

Pointy-headed pencil-neck geek lawyers counting dimpled chad, overseen
by a stacked Democrat-infested Florida court, will decide the next
President of the United States, and the fate of us all!

This rape of the American Citizen by the traitor algwhore and his
commie-socialist backers can not be allowed to go on!

But what do we do? I'm sure that many Patriots out there are asking
this question. We have to do something, but what? and where? and when?

Waiting for the next shoe to drop (for now).
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 18:15:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just heard on the radio...

The recount has stopped, because the Fla county can't get the recount done by the Sunday night court time specified???
They will supply the Nov 8th count to the Sec of State.

Can any of youz Florida bumz confirm this??


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 18:29:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wild Bill: Sappers in the wire to be sure! These are folks that don't mind pushing 180 degrees to the constitution. I'll admit that I was somewhat surprised by the outcome, I figured that somewhere, sometime, in the deliberations, it would be said "oh, wait. We don't have the authority to do that, nor would it be constitutional". But I suppose they believe in another supreme court justices words "The Constitution is what we say it is".

Cory: re: nationwide peaceful assembly and protest. That's fine and good, but when the 4th arm of the government, the media, refuses to put the million man militia on TV or cover it in any way, and the newspaper gives a small column on it right next to yesterdays retractions, the only people that will know about it are the folks tied up in traffic jams from the road blockages. So what's the solution? Well, I'm all for what Madison advocated. I'll even provide the first 100 feet of rope.

CDC: re: the reaction in the country if his sleazy little power grab gets through the institutions. What reaction? I'm betting at LEAST 93% of the population will be either too tied up watching a rerun of "friends" on TV or reclining with a good book. Politicians don't fear the people. They don't fear people calling their senator. They don't fear angry letters to their representatives. They just don't care. Why? 'cause when it's all over, it will still be making a bid for the oval office, with a happy citizenry or not. They lack the appropriate fear the 2nd amendment was designed to provide. If it weren't for that 7%, of which I'm a proud part, I'd take your bet in a second!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
watching the banana republic split, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 18:31:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

CNN confirmed Mianmi Dade stopped their recount. They will apparently do as you say...until some greasy lawyer tries to sue them into doing another change for the democratic party.
Mictac <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 18:44:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Concerning's my take.

If you're trying to be a "cheap charlie" and buy Paragon floor sweepings you deserve what you get. ONLY USE AMMUNITION OF KNOWN QUALITY...WHETHER YOU BUY IT OR MAKE IT!

You're shooting accuracy rifles, for god's sake! Why shoot questionable ammo in them. Even for training using good ammo will result in better scores and reliability which in turn will give you confidence in your weapon and abilities.

Reminds me of a friend with a HK21. Wouldn't run...ammo guessed it...Paragon!

My rifles get factory loads of proven quality or my own handloads only. NOTHING else is acceptable.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 18:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address:


Axl Rose???????

I prefer Elvis Costello, "I'm tired of being disgusted, so I'll try to be amused."

Duman <>
Reloading 'til I got no more components, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 18:53:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: Screw the debate. $100 says Gore doesn't make it.

Florida guys: Give us eye witness accounts of how how Dailey's goons do against guys who will face up. EYE WITNESS!

CDC' <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 18:56:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks Dude... are we having fun yet ;)
I just heard it again, that Miami-Dade has offically dropped the recount... and that BUSH IS SUEING THE STATE TO INCLUDE THE MILITARY BALLOTS.... YES! "KAN" (Kick ass now!)
... do we open the champagne yet?
I donno', cuz there are still lawyers on the loose in Fla, and the fat lady ain't sung yet... but I'm feelin more betterer than I have in a week!

Bravo, Dude-ski...
The government doesn't fear the common people, cuz the common people don't know doodlie-squat about the political world (it conflicts with watching "Friends")... but they DO fear the informed, constitutionalistas, which is why they are so hot on "gun control"... anyone that even understands why the 2nd was written, is an enemy of the socialistas, and a friend of the Constitution...


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 19:05:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


I hate to go against good news, but I believe the headlines are justa smokescreen. Local news radio said a couple of hours ago (CNN confirms) "the Miami-Dade officials decided to count only the more than 10,000 ballots that didn't register a presidential choice when they were put through the machine".
Looks to me like they are simply switching to a more "target rich" environment. Am I missing something basic here?

I hate "friends" does that put me in the 7% or are there other criteria?

Luck to us all,


Rick <>
MV, CA, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 19:30:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff Dog,
I've just returned from my business trips, checked the roster and saw your post about the bastions of liberty. What can I say but HOO Fricking AH!! Cannot agree with you more. By the way, if you sent me any E-mail I can't retrieve it "'cus my 'puters broke". Should be back on line by the end of the month. In the mean time keep up the good work.

Horseheads, NY, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 19:45:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Miami-Dade Election board announced that they were not going to continue to the re-count, and would only send in the votes that had been counted after legally mandated recount. Said they could not finish it all on Sunday by 1700 local time.
They were just getting ready to start counting votes from areas of heavily hispanic population when they quit. Why? The Hispanic votes are expected to favor Bush. Also, it was pointed out that it was illegal to count only the "under votes"(ballots with no presidential candidate selected.) Of course, Legality has not been a concern for the Clinton-Gore Dems.

Tired of the Liberal Media, and their Lies? Try these two sites for news:

Best Regards,
Bill <>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 19:56:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I´m currently working on purchasing a Steyr SSG PIV, the rifle is in fair condition with removeable flash hider and the original Steyr Silencer, the scope is marked "ZFM 6X42". does anybody know the maker of the scope (It vaguely resembles the Kahles ZF84/95, but the turrets seems lower and divided into to dials like the 10X UNERTL USMC scope) also an idea on a fair price will be appreciated.
Askov <>
DK - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 21:19:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
Folks, I know things FUBAR right now but let's not forget that this is Thanksgiving Eve. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving. I don't know about you but tomorrow, I'm not going to watch the news, turn on talk stations, read the paper, and if anyone wants to talk politics I'm going to knock the shit out of them.

Let's all just take a little time to sit back, relax, hug your younguns and play with the baby's momma. Go to a turkey shoot, kill a deer or just sleep. This crap will be with us for a while and we need to rest up for the rest of the fight.

To you and yours, I wish a happy Thanksgiving!

Bolt, tired and out!
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 22:16:25 (ZULU) (your host address:


I am with you on that one! Thanksgiving tomorrow, and off to the range on Friday for some pistol drills, AR drills, and then some long range practice...and no lying newsroom flunkies to ruin it.

Just on the tv, some lying newsman in DC just said that GW's credibility may have been damaged, because he did not tell them about Chaney's operation this morning. Aint that something? The lying Dems talking about credibility?

Best Regards to All,
Bill <>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 22, 2000 at 23:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

For youz Rosterfarian types that are tired of the news that covers up the truth, and would like the naked, straight, news, with no spin, go here...

It's better than the other news sites that some of the guys posted here... I promise!


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 00:04:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just saw a comment re:55gr .223 penetration...I've got something kinda fun/interesting to relate. I'm in the aviation industry, and snapped up a Bombardier Challenger 601 side windshield which was a
FN Rodgers, Jr. <>
Pem Pines, FL, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 00:13:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Newsflash!, Florida judge rules all PIMPLES on Gore team volunteers, and lawyers Butt's must be COUNTED!.
Seems, they are going to be allowed as ballots.
If, after this, Gore still doesn't have the neccessary votes, they will accept discarded ballots from the '96 election..........
Can you guys believe this tripe?, all hail our new Salamander In Thief!!!!!!!!
If we tried this, we'd be in the slammer for fraud, and vote tampering..........sheesssh.
Two Shoes
One has fallen, the others about to drop in Texas.
Terry <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 00:14:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
Dremils in SC:

Last one I bought resides in pieces in a Zip-Lock bag in my workshop, with a dead switch. Been meaning to send it back for repair but keep forgetting. In the mean time, I caught the local Home Despot closing out a Ryobi multitool comperable to the Dremil but better made. It has proven to be of excelent quality, really nice for the light work. Better switch by far.

For ripping out stocks for bedding work, I go with the Makita die grinder. Brutal damn thing, but efficient. Or beter yet, the mill. Efeicient, and very precise to boot.

My experiences with the HS stock on my 700 P has done nothing but reinforce a belief that I have held for some years now: anybody that tells you they are selling a
Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 00:24:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

My experiences with the HS stock on my 700 P has done nothing but reinforce a belief that I have held for some years now: anybody that tells you they are selling a "drop in" stock is simply not stating a true fact. Their ain't no such animal, at least that I have ever seen


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown , SC, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 00:26:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dremils in SC:

Last one I bought resides in pieces in a Zip-Lock bag in my workshop, with a dead switch. Been meaning to send it back for repair but keep forgetting. In the mean time, I caught the local Home Despot closing out a Ryobi multitool comperable to the Dremil but better made. It has proven to be of excelent quality, really nice for the light work. Better switch by far.

For ripping out stocks for bedding work, I go with the Makita die grinder. Brutal damn thing, but efficient. Or beter yet, the mill. Efeicient, and very precise to boot.

My experiences with the HS stock on my 700 P has done nothing but reinforce a belief that I have held for some years now: anybody that tells you they are selling a
Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 00:26:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a 7mm-08 that blows holes in primers,and cant shoot an apple at 100 yards.Model 70 action and an obermeyer SS bull barrel.It should shoot,luggs were lapped,head space checked,3-4 new firing pins protrusion checked.Firing pin doesn't strike the center of the primer.The gun was custom built by Earl Liebitrau.He says he doesn't know what to do.PLEASE help,anyone good with 7mm-08?need it fixed before I can go snippin.
Jeff Wojcik
Jeff Wojcik <>
Stevens Point, Wi., USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 01:06:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jeff W...

On your 7-08... Lets take it one step at a time...

First, how far of center does the firing pin hit... it's not unusual for the pin to hit a little off center... maybe 1/3 the way from the middle... but not at the edge of the primer... so where does the pin hit (though this is not the source of the blown primer problem).

The the usual suspects (other than bad handloads) that come to mind, are the neck is too tight, or the throat is too short, for the ammo you are using.

Are you using factory ammo (what kind?), or handloads???

If you set the safety in the MIDDLE position, and chamber a round, do you feel any resistance that you DON'T feel, when you close the action empty?

Look at the round, and see if there are scratches on the neck or bullet...

Drop me an e-mail, and we'll get through this... it's not rocket science.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 01:41:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tom: on drop in stocks, I know you're going to think this rather funky, and so did I. I read somewhere about the McMillan set up, an article about the factory, products and such as a review. When it came time for this guy to drop his 700 into one of the newly minted stocks he watched being made, he said something about having to have it bedded. I *THINK* it was Gale (could be wrong on that one) that told him tprodhis stocks did not need pillars or bedding, but most people do that for repeatability. So this guy drops his action in there, torques the screws to something like 75 inch pounds (where he made a note of stating that it didn't deform the stock - DUH!) and went and shot some good groups with it like that. Now, that may be democrap, but that's what I recall reading. My McMillan is bedded ;-)

Bro Two Shoes: Salamander in Theif! HA! Had to tell the wife that one! We are talking about algor here, so I have to ask. Was that a pseudo-gerbiling comment? You're right, if we tried this, we'd be in prison. If they try it, well, I'm all for watching the "politician rope trick"!

Bolt and Bill: I'm with you on the black-out. Tomorrow, if it's not snowing, I'll be working up a load for the CAR. Probably load some of those great Sierra JHP's for the pistol too. It'll give the stormtroopers something to be thankful for: they aren't busting in on me.

CDC: no debate, I just don't want to bet on the way things are going, and then lose because some great honest citizen sheriff arrests that slime bag, or some other honest citizens strings up some of this riff-raff. Of course, if it was Missouri, he could be president AND dead!

Duman: Yeah, Axl. Fun stuff. I think he's the reincarnation of Richard Wagner. Both make music that is appropriate to "annex" countries to. My favorite radio station (before it died): "Mozart to Motley Crue, 30 minutes or less". Extreme minimal rap. It was good. I like Elvis too.

Patron 'Lito: you've 100% once again. If we fall or fail, "there goes the neighborhood". Reminds me of a story about Ben Franklin talking to Stalin in the afterlife. Franklin was crowing over the disorder and fall of the soviet union, until Stalin said "wait, my experiment in America is coming along just fine!"
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
imagine a gallows, with a sign, "insert treasonous politicians here"!, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 01:58:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey all,
I am going to be getting a custom rifle built and I can't decide on the action I should use. It will be either a Rem 700 BDL COMPLETELY worked over, or a H-S Pro Series 2000 action that will also be worked on. What are the pros and cons of each? In case you need to know the rifle will be chambered for .308 and the barrel dimention will be 1.250" for 4" X .875" @ 29. I will use it for long range shooting so accuracy is my main concern. E-Mail me if you can, Thanks
Jason <>
PA, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 02:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
On that 7mm. Check the barrel for size just to be sure. Stranger things have happened. Maybe someone stuck a 6.5 in there.
If so you have a nice .260 or pretty close. You seem to have a very tight chamber if nothing else. What kind of Custom gun maker "doesn't know what to do?" Damn!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 02:34:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Dimpled/hanging Chad.....I think that is what is hanging from between my German Shepards hind legs. I suppose it is better than a perforated Chad...that would hurt!

Bravo, Are you going to make reference to the SerriaTimes Article by J.J.?

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! I hope T-day finds you well and healthy!

Cory <>
Floridastan, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 04:38:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff W
I was shooting with a fellow a while back who had three model 70's,too many, to close, He managed to get a bolt in the wrong rifle, the results were quite close to what you are experienceing the damage in one was minor the other quite severe check your numbers make sure there hasn't been a mix up i know you had the headspace checked but well thats another story. Lito is right you'll get it it's something
obvious look hard it's there
Good Luck
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 05:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo, open mouth take out foot. That guy who wrote the article is me. Its no bull and it works. I prefer to have the bedded/pillars because eventually I think the stock will deform. We are talking boltguns here not the tune every week gas guns.LOL M14's need bedding because they dont have screws/bedding blocks to hold them together. That forend has to be under tension or groups suck. Bolts just need to be solid and free floated.

As to the HS Stocks not being drop in. The only thing you may need to do is trim a little overflow of the paint on the bedding blocks and use the proper torque. They shoot well enough like that for the M24 system, and all the PSS's in Police Hands.

Dont get me wrong I prefer a hand built custom bedded rifle, but some guys dont have the cash or knowledge to bed and the McMillians and HS will work well unbedded.

Off to DC they recounted and I won this time.

Undude shakes his head at Stan. You owe me a beer son.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 05:39:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

BRAVO..... are you refering to Undudes' review of the McMillan A4
stock appearing In Review on this site?
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 05:50:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
BRAVO.... my last post wasn't meant to rub it in. Undude is very
alert this evening!
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 05:58:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

This just in:

Japan has sent 50,000,000 cases of Viagra to the United States.

It seems they heard the entire country can't get an election...

Personally, the whole situation makes me want to throw up!

Neither Gore or Bush deserve the presidency based on what I've seen.

Personally, I've about decided that I'll follow the law if I can and if I have a problem with with it I'll just disregard it, when possible.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:01:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just heard that Lawyers can't take Viagra, because it just made them taller, could this be true?
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:08:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just heard that Lawyers can't take Viagra, because it just made them taller, could this be true?
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:10:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just heard that Lawyers can't take Viagra, because it just made them taller, could this be true?
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
I heard that Lawyers can't take Viagra because it just makes them taller, could this be true?
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:19:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
I heard that Lawyers can't take Viagra because it just makes them taller, could this be true?
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:20:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jeff W
I was shooting with a fellow a while back who had three model 70's,too many, to close, He managed to get a bolt in the wrong rifle, the results were quite close to what you are experienceing the damage in one was minor the other quite severe check your numbers make sure there hasn't been a mix up i know you had the headspace checked but well thats another story. Lito is right you'll get it it's something
obvious look hard it's there
Good Luck
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:22:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sorry about that, I must have put the wrong bolt in this machine

Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 06:28:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Interesting side note on HS stocks: The Remmy Sendero stock is an HS product. A very sweet stock for an OTS rifle. Everything on mine is smoooooth and very well crafted. The rifle shoots sub-MOA and that is all I was aiming for. The stock also fits me very well. I'll be replacing the barrel soon because I have almost shot this one out (300 winmag...short barrel life), but I am very satisfied with the stock. The aluminum parts remmy produces suck, but they could be replaced with steel if I really wanted to, and the receiver has the rear sight mount off to the left a tad, but within acceptable tolerance and could also be fixed. I got the pea shooter for $602, including tax. Great price for a performing rifle.

Hank <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 07:11:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

I finally get the time to get back here and we have the Political Defacation hitting the Rotary Ventilation Device down south Florida way... I am is serious need of some "recoil therapy" while we still can.

Sorry guys, I gotta vent at those who are like minded. I just can not listen to it any more, my wife keeps an eye on it and briefs me (bless her for putting up with me). I just get all ~ AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!! ~ take long-slow-deep-breaths....(makes road rage look like a polite discussion of driving habits). The more I look at what "Teflon Bill" and "O-zone Al" have done, and gotten away with to this point over the last 8+ years, the more I realize that our Constitution is NOT A LIVING DOCUMENT, it IS A STROKE OF WELL THOUGHT OUT GENIUS. The framers anticipated the B.S. and provided the tools (but not the balls) to correct the problem...if we weren't too stupid to give them up. Yes, the implications are ominous....

There, that feels better. Now for a reloading related problem...

Any one have the address or phone number for Redding? I have some sort of burr in a Competition Seater die. It binds up a little on mag-length rounds, snd leaves a small nick in the side of the bullets for single loaded long range rounds. I can't find the case. I think maybe it found its' way into a garbage can near the bench.

We got snow and cold for Deer season (maybe) here in PA, I really feel for you folks up in "Hillary country", the lakes are not being kind to you.

Man it is good to be back after almost 6 months away from this place.

Freezing my conservative ass off!
Steve <>
FMAO in South West , PA, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 07:25:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

John with the misaligned barrel:

My 700 PSS DM 308 has the same problem as yours. I bought it new and the barrel was aligned properly at first. A year later, I pulled the stock to adjust the trigger. When I tightened the action back into the stock, it was all of a sudden rubbing heavily on the left side of the barrel channel. I checked, again and again, then I finally noticed a small 1/4" square brass shim on my workbench that matched up with an indentation in the forward bedding area. I couldn't believe Remington did this, but I just put the shim back in and have been shooting it since. I know this is far from ideal, but I am still getting consistent .85" to 1" groups with it.

I don't know what is wrong with Remington quality control as I also, regrettably, purchased a 700 PSS DM 300WM new in the box only to later find a 1mm deep by 7mm long scratch in the chamber. I sent it back to the Remington factory and they replaced the barreled receiver and re-numbered my bolt. Problem is, the new barrel has a seriously buggered crown.

It this the norm or what?

tohwa <>
No way to win, NV, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 10:15:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


"Too many M70's, What too many M70's, There ain't no steeeenkin thing as too many M70's"???
You're walkin' in a mine field there, Dude ;)

>>It this the norm or what?<<
Yup! If you read back in the archives for the last few years, you will find pages and pages of comments about Remington's quality (or lack there-of). When Rem and Stren merged, one of the cost cutting efforts, was to dump all the old times, and most of the repair shop... so most of the guys that work there now, aren't "gun" people... they don't care, and this kinda poo-poo shows up all the time.

Dude-ski, your foot ain't in your mouth. Both of my M70 Sharpshooters have McMillen A2 stocks, and they were stocked "BY" McMillen, and they are glass bedded (the best glass bedding I've ever seen)... My 6mm-BR from Rem custom shop had a McMillen stock, and it was glass bedded by Remington (the WORST glass bedding I've ever seen *see above remark), and one of my M70 HBV's is in a McMillen A2, and it's glass bedded.

There are a lot of "Drop in" stocks, and if you are willing to settle, then they are fine, but if you won't settle, and want to most out of your riffle, it needs to be glass bedded. It's not about group size, though most of the time, that will improve... it's about stability, year after year... it's about being able to take the action out, and put it back in, and the gun is still zero'ed, and shoots the same sized groups.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 12:31:50 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have to agree with you about the erosion of command. But there are still a few out there fighting the good fight. GEN Shelton for one and actually Secretary Cohen has my confidence. My apologies if I get a bit touchy on stuff like that.

But, I do believe that "this too shall pass." I enlisted (at age 16 with a very happy mother signing me away!) at the end of the Carter era and the beginning of President for Life Reagan's Empire. The change was unbelievable. In the space of a year everything was changing for the better. And it will happen again. It all goes in cycles up and down unfortunately. In the well put words of the USMC; Semper Fi!


Welcome back! That article you sent me was nothing short of Outfuckingstanding and I really learned alot from it! Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to send me that stuff!

FYI, waiting on word about a job in Colombia. Should find out in the next couple of weeks. So far, it looks real good.

Also, a buddy of mine who runs the training for US Customs SWAT program is going to Benning on a long TDY tour. If you can get away to attend a course there (its US Customs), I can get you a slot. let me know.


Good One!

By the way, do you know why lawyers wear ties?

It keeps their foreskins from popping up over there heads!


Jefe Agua (formerly Jeff of the chicken massacre; too many Jeff's in here.. <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 12:46:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Sniper Shoots.

The Calendar of Events here at SC is lean right now.
I'm seeking a more complete list of sniper shoots in 2001.
So far I've got:
Sniper Rendezvous, @SMTC in WV, September 29 &30, 2001
Sniper Challenge, in TX, October 26,27 & 28, 2001
D&L Sports Shoot, @SATA in WY, August ??????, 2001
If you guys know of any other sniper shoots scheduled (which allow mere civilians to attend) would you please let me know?
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 12:54:43 (ZULU) (your host address:


I agree with the whole there is no "team in me" assesment to a certain extent. But, if you look back through history, people have been diagnosing the same problems since the country began, yet people think its all new.

For example, the new 'drug epidemic." (And I am not, saying drugs are ok). The public outcry was high (bad choice of words I know) about this 'new problem" that was the result of our recent "moral decay."

Look back in the earliest days of this country. Laudenum,(snake oil) with a morphine base all over. Booze, killing off whole Indian tribes and plenty of settlers too. Prohibition and the moral decay that would destroy this country during the "Roaring '20's."

I still see so many examples of Good Americans all over, that I still
"bear true faith and allegience to the same." While self examination and criticism is healthy, perhaps we should also remember to look for the good things rather than just the bad.

Not posting this to say you're wrong, argue or start a debate. Just at thought to remember the good with the bad.

Best Wishes and Happy Thanksgiving!

Jefe (formerly Jeff of the chicken massacre; too many Jeffs in here
one is going by JeffW to reduce confusion which matches the
initial for my last name too!)

Jefe Agua <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 13:02:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

El Jefe' de Pollo Muerte... (aka "Chicken killer!!")

It not that these problems are "new"... it's the level they reach.
In the 40's and early 50's in NYC, heroin was limited to harlem, and to only small percent of the people there... it was rare by todays standards.
By the sixties, you couldn't go to a party anywhere without drugs being in open use... by the 80's, drugs were in the high schools, and by the early 90's they were in the grammer schools.
So... it's not "new", but it's a whole lot more worser.

As the single daddy of an 8 year old son, I send my son to a private school (which eats the hell out of my money;), but the public schools are now polluted with drugs, and and we live in a "nice" area!

But, Amigo, what "IS NEW"... socialista BS "programs", like "Fisting is an exceptable way to be intimate with your little friend!"... This poo-poo is "new", at least to me... we never had this crap when I was in school... we had rifle teams, which are now against the law.

So, the way I get it from the media... a 6 year old can be expelled from school for kissing a girl in class (it's sexual harrasment!!)... a girl can be expelled for taking a midol (it's a "0" tolerance drug policy), a kid can be expelled for having a picture of a gun in his note book ("0" weapons policy)... but they can be taught what goes on between homosexuals (at the age of 6 or 7), and have to accept it as an Ok personal choice...
...and that the constitution needs to be changed, because interferes with our rights, because it lets people own things, do things, and say things, that we don't like... go figger', cuz it's new to me.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 14:00:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

All Hogs:



God Bless -

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 14:18:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Little short editorial about the old shyster political hacks in long black dresses:

CDC' <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 14:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address:


I am about to go shooting with my PSS .308, using Federal Match 168 gr., and since my last shooting session was this past summer, when the temps. were in the 80's, and the temps today are in the 20-30's, I'm wondering what degredation in accuracy I should expect. Is this only a result of the temperature effects on the powder, or does the low temp have an effect on the bullet because of the barrel's twist rate. Should a different twist rate barrel be used for extremely different temperatures?

Gonzo <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 15:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


Orlin Grabbe has a pretty good pix of a voting machine on his site today. Check it out at since we're looking for alternate news sites lately.

Cheers for a happy holiday to all!

Les Hogan <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 15:08:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the 7mm-08 - if you are shooting reloads, make sure that you haven't accidentally mixed up some pistol primers with your rifle primers. Pistol primers will go nearly 100% of the time with high intensity loads. Go buy a new box of rifle primers and try them. Who knows, the factory might have screwed up and mislabeled a batch. Stranger things have happened.

Pat T
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 15:21:01 (ZULU) (your host address:


Happy Thanksgiving to EVERYONE!

Be safe on the roads, and thankful for all that you have.

peteR & Family

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 15:28:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Happy Turkey Day Everyone!!!!!
Now a technical question before I start stuffing my face. I have a pair of M22 Bino's complete with the laser reflective lenses. Is there a way to remove those lenses. They sure screw up the color contrast.

Kevin Mussack
You can add another competition to your list. We will be having a Sniper Match here at the Badlands in April 2001. Dates are not firm yet, but expect somewhere around the 3rd weekend. Guarantee lots of challenging shooting! I will post more details when everything is finalized.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 15:46:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

The 7,mm ; the primer and Bolt idea is certainly worth checking out for sure. I once had a Remington Bolt right out of the box that wouldn't go in the gun. The Serial number was right. Shit happens.
I never thought I'd say this but the Savage stuff I'm getting as of late comes closer to right than a lot of the Green Box stuff does. The accuracy shows it too. I've handpicked my Remingtons at shows etc but their Quality is in question for sure especially the PSS ones I've had and worked with in the past couple of years. To me a rifle that stays zeroed and doesn't warp to unbelievable proportions is worth 2 that shoot good once in a while. As of late Winchester and Savage have shown me a lot of promise. I don't sell them but I test and troubleshoot a lot of weapons that have problems. And shoot a lot that don't although that's rare to find one that doesn't need tuning.
Undude; I must agree that guns will shoot well without being bedded although I don't have anything against bedding. The purpose of the pillar bedded stuff as I see it is to prevent you having to bed it and the possible bedding problems that sometime occur at the worst times. I don't have a bedded rifle, all mine are pillar bedded but I don't fight with them anyhow so what I do I know? Just police up the screws and the things that stick out and touch and it will shoot as good as it will normally. I'll take a properly floated barrel anyday without question. Some of these new barrels could hide a mouse between the stock and the barrel in the floating jobs though. That's a little worrysome to me. I'm not sure why.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 16:22:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


I didn't do as well on my annual zero/qual.


And there are "Chads" on the target I demand to have included!


PS: Same goes for yesterdays game with Cincinnatti!
Jefe Agua <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 16:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Patron Mike: the article I was thinking about wasn't yours, or at least it wasn't the A4 article. Truthfully, I thought maybe I'd got it mixed up in my head, so I just re-read yours. I didn't remember the part about you just torqueing down the bolts and going. The article I was talking about was intensive in a step-by-step process of how they make the stocks, mold in the camo colors and not paint them on, etc. Like I said before, it was more about the factory and product line than just a new stock. But since YOU did the torque-and-go stuff, I trust YOU. Good 'nuff! And like you say, McMillan mandates that the gasgun stocks be bedded. The odd part is that to get the forend tension correct, and to accomodate the NM gas system, Geoff goes in with a router or something and "de-beefs" the front of the forend. It's still got plenty, but you can see it's thinner. When I asked about being able to flex the forend right by the gas cylinder (with hand pressure), I was told that it was something like 30 pounds tension was ideal. Hmmmm. But it works great, so I won't argue. All this aside, you KNOW you're always welcome to all of my beer you want.

Steve: please excuse this non-shooting section, I have to make exception to your statement that the Constitution is not a living document. If it weren't, why would I be kept up at night by it's screaming? It has to be living to die screaming while the democraps kill it.

El Jefe' de Pollo Muerte, Patron 'Lito: and don't forget that the media will make an isolated incident appear as if it's on your street corner. Like the politician who was railing for a ban on the Uzi, due to all the police it had killed. Investigation of police shot with them: 0.

And something for you guys: I've been in touch with Accurate Arms (powder makers) asking about a couple of their powders. AA2015 is a quickie, but I'm playing with it and 55 grainers in short barrelled 5.56's. It's got good thermal dynamics if AA is to be trusted, 4 fps norm in this caliber per 10 degrees rise I can live with 50 fps difference over a full year. AA2230 isn't quite as stable, but I was told that it does contain the same flash suppressants as their military contract non-canister powder does. Just some FYI for you 223 guys. Oh, and just for the heck of it, someone want to crunch some numbers for me and let me know the drops for a 55 SMK from 100 to 600 at 3300 fps?
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
happy thanksgiving guys, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 16:45:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

It may be too late in the day but! Just to remind you and for people that may be frying turkeys for the first time:

It speeds things up if the bird and oil are at room temp before you start cooking.

Don't mess with trying to guess at how much oil to use. Before you heat the oil, put your turkey in the pot and pour your cold oil over the turkey until it comes to within about an inch of covering the turkey. Pull the bird out and let it sit until the oil heats up. This will eliminate guessing at how much oil to use and will keep you from having a boil-over.

Never, never put a wet turkey in the hot oil.

Always wear shoes, apron or long pants, and eye protection when messing with these things.

Something that people don't think of! Ask everyone that is going to eat the turkey if they are allergic to peanuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A tip, pull your turkey out when done, turn off the gas and put a quartered potato or two in the hot oil. Leave it in till the oil cools and then throw away. It will remove most of the taste from the oil so you can reuse with better taste.

Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 18:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, I never said the bedding blocks were better. I said the bedding blocks work well enough for government work. I prefer a bedded rifle, but the job can be done very well with bedding blocks. My 338 Lapua built by HS, will shoot sub 3/4moa all day (most are 1/2moa) and that should tell you something. It is only torques to the standard HS Stock. If you look into the advantages of both designs you will see why the Army went with the blocks. If you break a stock in the field you just torque another HS one in place and go. You break a bedded stock and you need a whole lot more work to make it shoot the way it did before. I think the bedded stocks have the edge in acc. but if you have limited budget you can get by with a block set up. I used to take standard HS stocks and bed them but since I got a good torque wrench I just torque and go.

I have had this same conversation with Rick Boucher and he is the one that convinced me to just use the torque wrench. I even torque my McMillan bedded stocks now. They go right back to zero after taking out of the stock and using the wrench to put them back together.

OK so bottom line is the bedded stocks have a slight edge but the bedding blocks work well and cost far less. Just my opinion but I know enough to think that a Remington 40X factory bbl is not as good as a KxP, Acc Int, Kreiger or a dozen other actual good bbls.LOL Now take a deep breath before you rip my head off. I was just joking with you.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 18:58:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Have been searching for what seems like forever for first hand info about Warne QR or solid scope mounts.(besides their web site) The std Leupold set now in use on my rig,leaves something for me to be desired. thanx for any input.
Pete Holbrook <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 18:59:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just wishing all a happy holliday season as we prepare to go over the river and thru the woods and across the lake(on snow machines)on ice that is questionable this year at best, this winter hasn't really shown up yet, to Grandmothers house we go(Family homestead established in the early sixties) anyway best wishes to everyone.
In regards to the model 70's which I really like,Ithink I meant some people should only have one toy at a time to prevent mix-ups
Best wishes and Happy Hollidays
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 19:11:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
Random catch-ups:

Shotguns: I love my 870 from Scattergun Tech. I've been through Louie Awerbuck's level I and II classes (twice through level II) and it always got the job done. The Track-Lock ghost ring sight is about as good as it gets, though Louie wishes ST would silver solder the front blade instead of using epoxy. Benelli M1s are nice if you can afford them, but stay away from their ghost ring sight -- they're always breaking. Federal Tactical 00 buck and Brenneke slugs rule!

I always thought those police departments that started issuing AR-15s should have put some decent sights on their shotguns and some slugs in side-saddle carriers. They would give the extra penetration when needed, be plenty accurate out to 75 yards or more, and the balistics would be much more appropriate for urban use.

One more note on Steven Helsley: I heard tell how he ran the CQB carbine class that TFTT offers, but did it with a 1904 Springfield rifle. There he was doing double-taps with a .30-06 bolt rifle, doing it just as fast as the AR-15s, and getting better hits. A real rifleman.

Florida: I once jokingly commented that the Democrats might propose using statistical modeling to project what the unreadable ballots should be counted as. A couple hours later, I found a quote from a Democrat legislator proposing exactly that. As Lilly Tomlin said: "I try to be cynical, but it's hard to keep up."

Oh, well, turning off the news and going back to my DVD of Gladiator. Strength and Honor! Happy Thanksgiving.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 19:33:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Happy Thanksgiving,
Has anybody seen the article on the new Winchester .300 WSM (Winchester Short Magnum ) in the December/2000 issue of Handloader magazine. It is supposed to come close to the ballistics of the .300 Win. Mag without the long action. Might make an interesting new rifle project. Any thoughts?
D. Spitzer <SPITZER6320@AOL.COM>
Va, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 20:06:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
I think you have been drinking to much of that homebrew of yours(pertaining to your comments on Orrin Hatch)
Richard Nats <>
Ca, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 21:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Happy Thanksgiving, Gentlemen:

Has anyone on the roster done any business with a Mr. Paul Podhorn? He makes steel scope mounts and accessories. Has advertised on the Emporium --

Ordered something from him in early Oct. and haven't had any e-mails answered in a month...

Just a concern stemmed from past experiences....

Thanks, guys.

Mitch <>
Forsyth Co., Georgia, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 22:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry guys, I was going to be nice, but I got called out.

Richard Nats: treason: the offense of attempting by OVERT acts to overthrow the government of the state to which one owes allegiance. Traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is FALSE TO AN OBLIGATION; one who commits treason. Merriam-Webster dictionary. 1. Hatch, as a US senator, owes his allegiance to Utah and the US 2. The government is defined as the US Constitution, which he gave an oath to uphold and protect 3. The trust and obligation he is false to is upholding the constitution, which he purposefully damaged. I could rattle the offenses off by the number, but this one will do for an illustration: Co-sponsor a gun control bill with teddy kennedy. This is subversion of the US Constitution and therefore a betrayal of trust and an obligation to uphold the same. Now, it might be that I've drank too much, but not recently. Or it might be that you just weren't offended because you weren't paying attention! You might ask before making odd judgements.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
splitting the banana republic, once called the great, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 22:50:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I didn't even get the option of delivering my traditional thanksgiving line, courtessy of Patrick Henry / Gary Larson "Give me the mashed potatoes, or give me death!"

Hope everyone has a wonderful holiday, and Wes, we're thinking of yours specifically.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
the banana republic, where votes don't count, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 22:58:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Help!! I work for a Law Enforcement area in a rural area. We are now authorized to carry Bolt-Guns to supplement our 870's and Mini-14's. I plan our purchasing my own soon. I plan on buying a Remington Model 700 VS in .308. or should I buy the police model? I plan on using it for my personal rifle as well. What about the 20 inch fluted BBl? Also, what kind of base, rings, and optics should I use. I was looking at a Springfield Armory 4x14x56 Illum. Mil-dot any info on these. I'm familiar with the Mil-dot system from the Marines. Are these good Scopes? I can't afford to spend a whole lot, so some help from those more experienced would be nice.
Gary Yates <>
USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 23:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tu habla espanol muy bueno. Pero yo entiende solamente un poquito ( no differente de que la mujeres habla de mi pinga; "un poquito!"). Yo no tengo la opportunidad para estudiar en una escuela. Solamente con las chicas. Y mi espanol es mejor con mas tragos.

And I agree with you to a certain extent. But I am the man with "Rose Colored Night Vision Scopes!"

Best Wishes,...Suerte,

Jefe Agua (perro viente uno)

By the way, no formal spanish training. Just whorehouses and liquor and I'm still working on it! (professional development!)
Jefe <>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 23, 2000 at 23:58:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re Paul Podhorn -

If this is the guy based out of Illinois, I would tend to be VERY careful with my money.

This guy has raised quite a storm over on Log onto the web site then go to the Forums. Mr. Podhorn runs a sub-forum called "Allsteel/Paul Podhorn."

Call up some of the older archives and make up your own mind. I have not personally dealt with this guy but there are quite a few others who seem to be less than enthusiastic over their dealings with him.

Moe Mensale <>
Still counting in palm beach county and, hey, isn't that a CHAD hanging from the turkey? Should we count it or eat it? Which one? DUH, FL, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 00:39:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

It's been a while that I have made any posts to this site so

Scott Hannah
Scott hannah <>
San Jose, Clintonfornia, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 00:52:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Got a Christmas catalog from Sinclair the other day. On the back cover, they have a new "magnetic" boresighter from Leupold for $60. Apparently this gizmo just "sticks" to your crown and doesn't require the normal arbors associated with regular boresighters.

I'm not exactly sure how this "stickum" version would get into the proper alignment mode. Has anyone else seen these or used them? Or should I just spend the bucks for the old, unimproved model?

Moe Mensale <>
palm beach chad, er, county, FL, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 03:36:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


The Remington LTR is a great rifle. All of them that I have seen are just as accurate out to around 700-800 yards as the longer barreled rifles.

The VS is actually reported to be more accurate than the Police model.

Go with Badger Ordnance rings/bases. They are tough and precision made.

I would stick with a Leupold scope. I don't think that it makes any sense to go with anyone but them. They make their own scopes and other companies (like Springfield I believe) have theirs made in Japan. With Leupold you are dealing with the manufacturer. You cant go wrong with a Vari-X III M3LR.
Gooch <>
USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 03:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

CANON CITY, CO, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 04:33:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have to agree with you there, but sorry to say that that scream is being drowned out by the noise made by our founding fathers and those who paid the highest price defending our Constitution as they roll over in their graves after the seeing all the Clinton-Gore-Democrap antics over the last 8 years.
By living document, I meant the drivel about it being interpreted NOT as an absolute "THIS IS WHAT IT F*****G MEANS!...THE MEANING IS NOT OPEN FOR DISCUSSION, ONLY WHETHER OR NOT A NEW LAW COPMLIES.", but as being all "grey area" to be interpreted based on what the current "Rulers" need it to mean. Am I jumping up and down and shouting? Well, yes I am, cuz it really gets my blood boiling. Got some of that brew handy, I'll need it to calm down enough to sleep (that or eat more turkey).

Sereiously, we definitely AGREE on this one, just word it differently.

steve <>
fearful tor our epublic in, the foothills of SW PA, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 05:01:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello out there
I need a opinion on inproving my win model 70 hbvs in .223
it has a synthic stock with the alumiun bedding block and wanted to no if I bed it would it help it group a little tighter. it group a cosistant .5-.75moa now off the shelf. Thinking of ordering the same rilfe in 308cal for shooting at longer range.
Jason <>
Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 07:00:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Man, I thought I was in the twilite zone for a minute there. All
that chicken shootin' stuff. I was looking for a site that was
serious about shootin'. 'Thought I was in the wrong place, then I
I found the RIGHT section, serious thoughts on a serious business /
I'm not in Law Inforcement, (have a lot of friends that are) But
I am serious about my shooting and equipment. Some of which might
not be in the class you guys are used to, but I hope I'm welcome
just the same............... If NOT just say so.

By the way, You ALL don't see hunters as a THREAT do you???
Or was I just misreading that guy? It's kinda' late so I might not
have really caught his 'drift', My apologies if .....

Take care............... Irish 1 Michael J.
Michael J. O'Berry <michael oberry@emai;>
Port St. John, Fla., USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 08:20:28 (ZULU) (your host address:


Ditto on Gooch's prescription.
M700VS+Badger Base & Rings+M3LR

Let me add:
one, Harris Bipod, Model SLM
one, T.R.G.T. Log Book
one, Mildot Master
one, one-piece cleaning rod
one, bore guide
one, Pelican Case

Get some training.
Shoot often.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 10:03:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Michael O'Berry: The chicken massacre thread died a well deserved death. Let it rest in peace.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 13:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Irish 1...

>>Man, I thought I was in the twilite zone for a minute there. All that chicken shootin' stuff.<<

Wait 'til you catch us on a "good day"!

>>By the way, You ALL don't see hunters as a THREAT do you???<<

Naw... we don't see them as a THREAT!... we see them as a target!
We tie chickens to their ankles, and give them a 1 minute head start!

The M70 HBV's come already bedded. Pull the action, and you can see the goop. At one time, they used a thermal setting goop (melt it, set the action, and let it cool!)... but the last two HBV's I got, had regular glass bedding. Both work well.
I have 3 stainless HBV's that are out of the box, except for trigger adjustment, and they are all match ready. One of the bumz on this site took first in his states's 1000 yard matches, with an out of the box, .308 HBV.
All of mine have the barrel "centered" in the channel ;) (Just had to say it, youz Rem PSS guys;).

If you're not already... your nest step is to start handloading.
If you get a .308, you'll LUV it!

What you said!!!!! In spades!!!

PLEASE DON'T TYPE IN ALL CAPS... It's the same as screaming, and not pleasent to read... get a new trigger.

I saw that on my sinclair catalogue also. I'm in the market for one, and was/am looking at the simmons. When I saw the Lupita, it piqued my couriosity (their reputation, and all)... but I can't figgure how the sucka' stays on a stainless barrel, "wit out no magnet stuff in there"!
You know how they do it??

With a 100 zero:
100= -0
200= -2.6
300= -11.8
400= -30.9
500= -64.9
600= -121.3

OK... now your turn in the barrel (gun barrel, that is;).
I've switched from the old propane hand torch to oxy-acetylene, for annealing cases.
I have a special torch, with a neat circular burner. It has a lot of small flames that point inward to the center of the circle, to heat the neck and shoulder evenly...
I ran out of one tank, long before the other, so I told the acetylene guy that I was heating cartridge cases (first mistake), and asked him what the right ratio of cubic feet sized cylinders was, to get them to run out together (second mistake)... he didn't know what I was talking about... said I was going to blow myself up heating "boolets"... people like me shouldn't own oxy-acetylene rigs... they were only for "Pros"...yadda, yadda, yadda... (sounded like the beginings of an "Oxy-acetylene control" movement;).

... SO! Get out your chemical slip-stick, and figure out what the ratio is (in cubic feet) for acetylene and oxygen, in a neutral burn condition (no left over carbon, or oxygen)... HA!


Pablito <>
Lookin' for those "Moving Chicken Targets" at 900 meters, in the troubled, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 13:46:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I reckon you're qualified to run a torch.... now the guy that invented the oxy/acetylene rig, he went up with a bang. Guess he thought he could improve on what he already had.

What kinda SS barrels you got that are non-magnetic, or were you just funnin'? I got the Sinclair flyer but didn't catch that magenetic bore-sighter. Have put it on my list of things to check out at SHOT.

Ned <>
Frezzinmyhoohoos, MI, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 15:13:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can anyone tell me say on a 800 yard target of known dimensions say in a 45 degree wind of 15 mph or so. How long is your average time to complete from spot to shot using the mil dot master. How long does it take to compute the shot average? Not a contest just want to know what is a practical time?
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 15:21:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
>>By the way, You ALL don't see hunters as a THREAT do you???<<

Ditto Pablito. :) Seriously though, I'm a hunter so I have little room to talk, but for the love of God THINK before you shoot. I'm still looking for that entrenching tool...


Ditto Kevin and Gooch. Badgers won't let you down, and niether will Loopy. Possible ammendment to Kevin's list are Harris model BR-S bipod (benchrest 6-9" w/swivel) and a Pod-Loc (see the review in "in review"). Good chemicals are important, so in addition to the bore guide and one-piece (preferably nylon) rod you'll need quality powder and copper solvent. Hoppes #9 poweder solvent is what I use and is pretty popular with the others on this board who are more knowledgable than I. For copper removal, Sweets 7.62 works for me. Get a good .30 cal cleaning jag and a good bronze-core benchrest bore brush and you'll be in good shape.

Roger C. <>
Keeping my fingers crossed in Austin, TX, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 15:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gary Yates: You might want to have the mini stroked. They're good for about 1.5 MOA with very little work (no rebarrelling), sometimes better. Although only Bill and I will say so, they're not bad carbines. As for the bolt gun, I'd go with what has already been recommended.

Michael J. O'Berry: yes, I consider the hunters on this site a threat. For instance, I would be willing to put MUCHO Bravo Brew up on wager that Wild Bill is a great threat, to the 'yote population. On the chickens, well, there's more to it than would normally meet the eye.

Patron 'Lito: thanks for the drop dope! I'll go out and play with it today! I think I'll try to hit 3300 fps with the 2015BR first, but if it gives me any problems, I'll drop back to W748 to play with. Oh, and it's the ferrous content (iron) in the barrel that's magnetic, stainless works just great. As for the oxy-acetylene, the simple answer is 3. C2H4+3O2->2CO2+2H2O. But there's more to it than that. Just so happens that the oxy-acetylene torch is what one uses for atomic absorption spectroscopy, and that was one of my projects in grad school. First off, don't let the acetylene hit pressures over about 35 psi. My advisor did, and told me of the resulting fireball that took off his eyebrows ;-) The way I work it is by looking at the flame. Adjust it to where you've got a blue flame, yellow at the tips, with a small "ridge" of brilliant blue at the head. Your oxygen will ALWAYS last longer than the acetylene. It's 'cause you can't pack as much pressure in the acetylene tank as you can the oxygen tank. And tell your gas guy to shove it. If a mook like me can learn how to use it (and the next head, the nitrous oxide / acetylene!!), anyone can!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 16:49:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Seems you were upset in the manner you came across in your post directly to me. There was no intention to get you all fired up.
It seems that you are very intouch with this nations constitution, than you shall respect my 1st addmendment right, you know the one on freedom of speech? How can you sit there and say that Hatch is a traitor, and accuse him of treason when you obviously haven't read his issues? Maybe you should take some time and research some of his arguments, before giving him the ax! or shot that is. You seem to like to use quotes,so let me give you one. "I do not support gun control, but I do believe in crime control"(Orrin Hatch). What is wrong with this? I want your OWN oppions on this not a quote.
Richard Nats <>
ca, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 19:13:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
Muzzleflash: My partner the first week of Storm Mountain had a setup like yours: Savage action in Choate "sniper" stock. It worked OK the first few days, then the screws holding the action into the stock stripped out. He had to shoot the final with my rifle, Rod didn't have any more loaners. So check the screws, and maybe replace them with hardened American ones.

P.S., Please don't shout (type in upper case), it hurts our ears.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 20:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry again guys, I don't like getting called out either. Richard, if you need further education on the issue, please mail me privately. We need not tie up the roster space with this. As I told CDC though, if I'm provoked, I'll answer. Character flaw I suppose.

I wasn't upset then, and I'm not now. Although I find it mildly annoying to hear that my statements MUST be the result of beer consumption. As to your reference of the first amendment, I didn't inhibit your freedom in any way. Telling you the facts isn't prohibiting your speech, unless you're a democrap, in which case not agreeing completely is infringement of the first in your opinion. "How can you sit there and say that Hatch is a traitor, and accuse him of treason when you obviously haven't read his issues?" I can sit here and say that Hatch is a traitor because I know his VOTING RECORD. I agree, he *SAYS* some good things. But he doesn't vote them, at least not consistently. "Maybe you should take some time and research some of his arguments, before giving him the ax!" Let's see. Would his public debates on several constitutional issues with the noted constitutional scholar Don Fotheringham count as taking some time for research? He showed his true colors there, and Don wiped the floor with him, showing that Orrin didn't have either proper reverence for the Constitution or didn't know it. I also keep QUITE on top of his voting record. Need more? How about his voting for a centralized, powerful national police force similar to the gestapo or kgb? I suppose you know the difference in a republic and a federalist state. Then there was his vote on Resolution of Ratification to Treaty Doc No 105-36, which means our servicemen won't necessarily have to have an American commanding officer for the next 80 years. "I do not support gun control, but I do believe in crime control"(Orrin Hatch)." But that didn't stop him from infringing on our 2nd amendment rights in his co-sponsoring that gun control bill with teddy "Chapaquitick" kennedy. He's also taking ruskie money, although the US-USSR Trade and Economic Council claims to be a private organization. Oh, and let's not forget that he was a key player in having the ATF and FBI agents not have to attend the Waco attrocity hearings, until they were re-scheduled and the media had time to hook the hearings to the "evil militia right wing radical" constituency. Heck, even John Dingell was doing more than Hatch was on the issue! This is a rather small, insignificant list. However, I would like to remind you that a treasoner is someone that commits *AN* act of treason, not necessarily a repitition of acts, which Hatch also has done. Judas is an example of the former, Hatch the latter. The label traitor and treasoner sticks!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
sorry for the long winded post guys, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 20:26:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Send this link to everyone you know:

If we fight we win. So fight.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 20:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: Leave me out of this kind of crap.

CDC' <>
USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 20:41:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anybody have wheels on their Starlight case? I understand they're larger, too large? Can they be added to a case you already have? My wheeled SKB case saved my life when I was trying to get all my Storm Mountain gear through airports single-handed, so I'm thinking of adding them to the case for my AT1-C24.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 20:48:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi guys
I just found this site and like what I see. I'm a long range civilian shooter and have been for six years. My question is have any of the profesionals that use this site had any experience with tha larger calibers like the .30-378 wty mag or the .300 or .330 Dakota.
I'm building a rifle in .300 Dakota and think that this would be a great cartridge for police or military snipers. I do know that military snipers don't realy have a say in the caliber of the rifle they use. But there may be a police agency that gives their people some latitude on the rifles they can use for a mission.
just a thought...
Kerry <>
CA, USA - Friday, November 24, 2000 at 22:16:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pablito, on using that torch. I think that is the same one we use to silver solder A/C lines together. I have found that it works great with about 3 psi on each gage. Watch out on that 35 psi that is where acetylene gets real unstable, like nitro. If you notice on your acetylene gage it is red from 15 psi up. The lower the pressure the better it works. If you want to see how powerful acetylene is just set up your torch with a neutral flame, and snuff out the flame. Blow up a baloon with a little bit of gas. Then set it off. Do this outside, because it will be serious loud, and possibly blow out the windows.
John Price <>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 00:33:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
For those of you that had questions about the oxy-acetylene torch.
If you are using tip size that are on the small side like a #2 or smaller( a #2 tip is a #56 drill size) and you have the torch set for a neutral flame. You will burn twice as much oxygen as acetylene. now you can controll this by lowering your pressures on both tanks but you will still burn more oxygen then acetylene.
For all my needs (silver soldering, welding, cutting and general heating of things) your pressures will never need to be any higher than 7 psi ACETYLENE 20 psi OXYGEN. and as most of you know DO NOT EXCEED 15psi on the acetylene hose pressure. Acetylene is an unsatble gas that can not be compressed past 35 psi and 15 psi being the MAX SAFE working level. You also should get a set of check valves this will prevent any back flashes from going back up the hose to the tank and ruing your day to say the least. that should be about all you need
Thanks Kerry
Kerry <>
CA, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 01:35:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am going to buy a Rem700PSS and my son and I are going to learn to snipe. I was wondering if I could get some advice on a scope and range finder. What is the best scope at or under $300. What is a good inexpensive range finder, and where can I locate all of these items (incl. rifle)?
Wm. B. Steele <>
Laughlin, NV, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 01:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
Re $300 sniper scope: Expert opinion says the new Tascos don't make it so the closest you can come with a new scope is a fixed Loopy. The 12X is $300. They have a number of 6X models under that. Problems: 1" tube, no mil-dots, no bdc/field adjustable turrets. Or you can check out used scopes in the pawn shops. If you can go $400 you have better options.

On the .300 ultra-super-dooper mags as sniper rounds: This question's corpse gets dug up and routinely flogged about once a month. The consensus is: Too much blast, too much recoil, too short barrel life, too much powder, too short brass life, makes my head hurt and my nose bleed.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 02:23:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr. Steele, Bite the Bullet and get the M3 Leupold that is recommended by most of the snipers here. You gonna need the MIldots if you gonna do the thing. Get you a MILDOT master and a Slope Doper and one of the Log Books that Gooch recommended yesterday. The PSS will do O.K. Getcha some good scope mounts, good rounds loaded with some good bullets and have fun. But let me warn you... Havin the boots and the Hat don't always make a Cowboy. Get you a Sniper Manual and study it hard. If you're a good shot already and have the patience of Job and the wisdom of Solomon you can teach that boy to be what all good Snipers are or wanna bee..... a Rifleman that can stalk, survive and shoot. I wish it were taught in high schools of this Great Country. The only thing we teach our kids is how to wait hours in line for Rock Stars.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 03:36:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Deer 1, Bolt 0

Damn tree limbs!

Squinty eyed Bolt, dejected and out!
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 03:40:36 (ZULU) (your host address:


First I want to thank you for your prayers for my wife.

Sharran underwent cancer surgery this morning and they got the lump. Surrounding tissue looks clear. Lymph Glands are being tested/results next Tuesday.

At first glance it appears we got the cancer. Now she'll undergo radiation therapy for approximately six weeks and checkups after that...

I can't tell you how much it has meant to me to have the support of this lists members druing this stressfull time. Simple thanks is all I can offer...

Kind Regards,


P.S. Will have more 6.5 data for you next week some time...

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:05:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

John Price...
Yup... it's a Smith "C" tip, on a Smith Versa cutting handle. I run the Acetylene at 4 pounds, and the Oxygen at 7 pounds... works fine.

I have dual check valves and dual flashback arresters on each line... at the torch, and at the gas saver junction.


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:07:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Then I'm right in using the .300 Dakota to build my rifle around.
It's just a bit hotter than a .300 win mag. but no the overkill of the 30-378 Wty mag. And this reminded me that the average shot is 75 yrds. for police snipers so anything over a 30-06 is overkill.
I have to keep things in perspective for the intened use of the rifle.
Thanks for the info. Kerry
Kerry <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:12:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

You think you got problems? Lemme tell ya, bro, I got that beat. My dad lined up a lease this season with some lady he knows. 360 acres. A few stands and other places for a hide. Only gotcha was that she said it's her family's land and we'd be s.o.l. if they beat us to a stand on any given day. Okay, the place was cheap, we decided we could live with that. Besides, I'm two hours from my dad's place and it's another hour to the lease from there, so how often am I going to go, right?

Wrong. Found out this afternoon that, drumroll please, where we were hunting was not her family's land! It belongs to some guy out of Houston. She owns a couple of 80'x120' plots way off in a useless corner of this place. The rest was sold off by the local government to cover delinquent taxes. How did I find this out, you ask? Well, I see a guy come walking up the sendero, right to "my" hide, and tells me (politely) that it's a felony to hunt someone else's lease, and get out. Oops. Explaination of the above facts followed, and I left embarassed and venison-free.

Moral of the story, don't belive my dad when he tells you he has a place for you to hunt...and be nice to people with guns.

Roger C. <>
Stewing in disapointment in Austin, TX, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:19:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

AVG. ??????? Remember that while the AVG might be 78yds there are shots longer. Training just at short ranges handicap you and give you a dangerous mindset.
If I had to take a shot throught glass or some other intervening barrier I doubt I'd think that .338 Lapua was overkill.

Wes - Best wishes for you and yours

Kevin <>
CANADA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:28:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


I don't know you but I'm glad to hear your wife is doing well. My mother had a radical hysterectamy about 15 years ago to remove a very large and very nasty uterine cancer. Stressful stuff. Scared the piss out of me. Keep the spirits up.

Roger C. <>
Still pissed in Austin, TX, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:28:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes- good for you and your wife. Here's to a quick recovery!

Now for a pet peeve on something completely different- The average shot distance for LE. I kept hearing it was about 78 yards too...
guess what guys- urban legend at work.
I am a member of a LE sniper group (ASA) that actually has done a study on this. Everyone said about 78 yards and that they heard it from the NCIC or ASA asked the FBI.
Guess what? They do not record any such data.
This is like the .223 round that will penetrate vilages, houses and then tank armor...just isn't true.
So now you ask -what is the average? Answer- We don't know!
Anyone who says they do please forward your data source.
Just to ruin the average-the two most recent shots on the east coast (Florida excepted) occurred in PA. Distance was over 200 yards on a stationary and 178 yards on a moving target. I actually spoke to the team commander of one incident- he was real impressed with the boys!
I have been set up between 60 yards and 150 yards on subjects...and the further ones were where I thought somebody was going down.
Seriously-if anyone has real data please speak up!

Mictac <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:48:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


You have a non-magnetic stainless steel barrel? Ooooooooo! You must be suffering from Turkey Overload!

The Loopie boresighter has magnetic thingies in the vertical part that makes it stick to the crown. Other boresighters use the arbor to line them up. What would help line up this magnetic one? Maybe I'm missing something here but this doesn't seem very effective. You just stick it on and hope for the best? Hmmmmmm.

Hey, Ned, if you buy this new Loopie stick on thing, let us know how it all works.

Moe Mensale <>
hey al, when's the next boat to havanna leave the port of palm beach?, FL, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:49:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Teaching Kids

Mr. Rogers wrote," The only thing we teach our kids is how to wait hours in line for Rock Stars."

We must not rely on or trust the public schools. Our children are our own responsibility. Shooting is a great way to share our core values with our kids.

My son and I have been shooting together since he was old enough to hold a .22. There has been no better time in my life than that spent teaching him and learning from him on the range and in the field.

A couple years back, at age 13, my son earned the Top Gun award at SMTC, Long Range Rifle One. I've never been so proud in my life. After the the presentation of the certificate I was told, "He didn't learn to shoot like that here. Good job." I was on top of the world that day.

Andy and I have shot IPSC, IDPA, NRA Highpower, NRA Sporter Rifle, NRA Highpower Silhouette, 1,000 Yrd. Benchrest, Sporting Clays and Skeet together. From time to time he beats his dad. I expect the day will come when I won't be able to even come close to beating him. That will be another proud day.

No, Mr. Rogers, Andy wouldn't wait hours in line for a rock star but he'd wait hours in a tree stand for a buck to walk by.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 04:50:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm greatful that this web site is open. However I would like a chat room for people interested in long range shooting. I realize it's almost impossible to get shooters at one place at one time . So if you made it ready once a week at a certain hour I beleive most people really interested would make the time . Thank you Mark
Mark Morris <>
Albany, Ky, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 05:02:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Rifle, Caliber, Scope selection,
I found this site a week ago and have spent hours in front of the screen since. Being a U.S Marine I have a lot of experience with the M16A2 service rifle and various 7.62mm weapons in our arsenal. I qualifed expert, shooting from 200, 300, and 500 yrds using iron sights(I know half the people here can shoot better than me. I just figured a little background would provide a better perspective and more accurate responce). Anyway my knowledge of weapons is limited to what weapons I use. I'm looking for a general purpose quality hunting/recreational target rifle to fulfil 85-90% of my needs and able to fire. The weapon will be used mostly for deer at 300 yrds and target shooting up to 500 yrds and on occasion 600yrds. The scope should be a quality tactical/hunting scope(1/2 MOA adjustment) w/on the spot adjustments (no caps) that are not easily moved when bumped, and sturdy mounts. The whole system rifle, scope, and mounts no more than 10lbs. I'm looking for out of the box products and ammo. My budget is $680-rifle, $230-scope, $90-mounts (I'm a poor college senoir).
I'm looking hard at a Remington 700 series. The general consensus seems to be the 700vs .308. Although more accurate it's walking the line on weight, and what about the 7mm calibers (270,280,7mm-08,)and 30-06. Acording to the remington billistics charts in general the .308 and these other calibers have about the same impact energy up to 5oo yrds with the 7mm size calibers being a little more accurate and a little faster (I know there are other ammo makers out there and reloading). What are the advantages and disadvantages of each caliber or does the availability of the .308 make it the obious choice. I also read on SC that barrels burn out, which probably out of my own ignorance I've never heard of??? If this is true??? I'm looking for a rifle/caliber combination that will fire many many many rounds and still fufill the stated requirments.
I know you get what you pay for and I'm looking for the best I can afford, but I also believe that a decent rig, proper shooting tequnique, and plenty of practice rounds will always beat the average shooter with the latest bank busting gear.
I know this is a lot but who better to ask than the experts?! any response and advise will be greatly appreciate.
Leatherneck <>
Longview, TX, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 06:04:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kevin: as I've said before, you're a model for me. When my son comes of age to have that 22, I'm whole heartedly anticipating the enjoyment. My kudos and respect to you and Andy both.

Mictac: a 223 that penetrates tank armor after all that. That's a new one on me! My favorite is when I get folks telling me that the bullets tumble in flight. YEAH!!! One has to wonder where these things start up, and how they get fact status when they're so odd.

Wes: that's great news, and I'm glad to hear it! My best wishes to your wife, and my sympathies to you both (I can't stand hospital chow AT ALL!). Wish her the fastest of recoveries for us "southerners".

Did something tonight I haven't done for a while, and all of a sudden I'm remembering why those FTX's weren't all fun. Full pack weighed in at 63 pounds, LBE weighed in at 20. Loaded rifle with everything on it boosted the total to 100. Wild Bill, it might be that a hat and boots doesn't make a cowboy, but a beergut and lack of exercise makes someone that doesn't like to hump 100 pounds! HA! If you guys are wondering why so much ruck weight, it's cause I carry WATER and lots of it, along with cold weather stuff 'cause it's WELL below freezing around here at night. That and 180 rounds of M-118LR in mags ;-) So the reason I bring this up: anyone got a good working system that keeps those danged half gallon soft canteens from flopping around like a fish out of water? I noticed that the Tactical Taylor had something, but can't figure how it would work. Any help is appreciated!
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
started to post Patrick Henry's speach, but I'm trying hard to be good, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 06:05:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey, mates!Does anyone have the ballistic drop for a 162 gr. Amax bullet for 7mm rem. mag. at 2900fps for the following distances: 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200 yards? I know, I know, the 7mm rem. mag. isn't the sniper rifle of choice, but it's all I have. Thanks!
Bush Baby <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 06:52:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have been reading posts on this site for months now just for my interest in the profession. I have come to a place where I want to build up a rifle and would like some expert advice. I have an AR15 SP1 that I was thinking about buying a new upper receiver and barrel for, so that I could change back and forth between assault rifle and accuracy rifle. I have decided to can that idea and keep the collapsible stock on it and add a 11.5” barrel, and keep it for the purpose that I originally bought it for. This means that I need a rifle for the accuracy side.

I have seen quite a few posts regarding the Rem 700 VS as a good rifle to start from. Would I be better off buying the 700 VS or just buying a cheapy 700 and adding a quality barrel and a McMillan stock? If I go the buildup route, has anyone had any experience with Douglas barrels, or what is the preference? I would like to stay with .308. I really like the Sendero’s finish, but last I had seen there was no such thing as a .308 Sendero. Is that still true? Any advice would be appreciated.

E-mail me if you don't want to tie up the Roster.

Refraining from political posts, as it agries up the blood! ;)


Minuteman <>
Hartville, MO, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 07:42:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


The FBI does keep data on that stuff, at least in terms of detailed after action reports. I would be very surprised if they don't summarize the information, hell thats their very nature. It's not something they hand out freely however.

As far as the longest LEA sniper shot, a NH schools manual cites to an incident (this is from memory) which I believe was in DC, where a Park Police sniper took a 400 meter shot. If you want that cite, let me know, I'm sure I can get it.

I believe the Ultimate Sniper addresses this issue but don't remember if there were any cites to the information in it.

Perhaps that average came as the normal distance from one building to another across the street?

Anyways, I can at least get you some AAR's re: sniper engagements from LEA's if you want. Email me if you want it.

By the way, how'd your deer hunt go?

Jefe <>
VT, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 12:54:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hum! Lots of open ended stuff here this morning.
Kevin' I applaud you man. Sounds like you have a great situation there with your son. Seldom seen these days. When I said we teach, I meant the NEA down here teaches. You got to be careful down here teaching anything to do with guns. But my daughter asked me last night if I would come help her history teacher demo some Black Powder guns to the History Class. (a ray of hope)! I tend to be too General.
Wes; we who have been through that know what you are going through and we're so glad it came out O.K. It's a good feeling to have the bad part behind, I know.
Now for you Bravo; I know how to get you boy! This is what Orin Hatch told me! "IF Bravo didn't carry so much ammo for that bullet sprayer evil baby killin semi automatic assault rifle he wouldn't have to have so much water. IF he'd drink a little more of his brew and get a bolt gun. He could carry 20 rounds of ammo and 5 gal can of Bravo Beer and still be under a hundred pounds. He wouldn't survive as long but he'd enjoy the trip more!" Don't blame me... that's what he said.. swear...Seriously try some powdered Gator aide in that Hot Utah sun..I get 4 to 1 miles per gallon on it. Don't mix it till you need it unless you're in a short contesto. It's a lot better hot too and if you find some cool water in a strean drink it anyhow. Potassum supplements don't hurt either if you don't take too much.. He know's all this is for the lurkers. I know... I know somebody out there don't like gator aide.. thinks it don't work and all that... leave an old man to his fantasy.. I been there and done it. Try hikin in 110 all day. Bravo knows!
Leatherneck; barrels do burn out I'm sorry to say that ain't no rumor. But the armourers take care of that and you don't know what's goin on. (that is the assumption anyway I can imagine why you never heard of it.).
Minute Man; (that's what my wife used to call me, she knows I'm a real patriot I guess). The .308 Sendero is called the 700 VS. (VARMINT SYNTHETIC) Same thing short action. I would start with the Sendero. (your decision to use this rifle for accuracy is applauded by me) It will do pretty good and when the first barrel burns out you'll be ready for a better barrel. Douglas is not my favorite. Kreiger or some others will be a little better.
Bush Baby; Mate; somebody told you a 7 ain't good don't know SXXXT.
There are some excellent on line ballistics programs. If you know the flight of a Sierra Match king already the A-max is very close. Goto the Hornady Home page or e-mail me and I'll look up what you need. I've used up my bytes this morning!
Bravo; I'm suffering conflict of interest I am doin these chicken thief coyotes and Lito's eye'in em for AR 50 practice. There is no justice in this world. Poor little chickies. Man what do them chickens taste like after a AR 50 dead center hit. Can't you get a 50 in a 40X? Would that be a 50X?
Ain't this fun? Wild "wannabee" Bill out!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 14:57:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill Rogers and Wm. Steele: Bill's right, of course. A $300 scope is fine for a hunting rifle and an expert can do good things with it, but you're way ahead if you skip lunch until you can afford to buy one good scope.

Leatherneck: You wrote, "The scope should be a quality tactical/hunting scope(1/2 MOA adjustment) w/on the spot adjustments (no caps) that are not easily moved when bumped, and sturdy
mounts. My budget is $680-rifle,$230-scope, $90-mounts (I'm a poor college senoir)."

For a scope/mount/ring combo there's no such critter. Either budget more, settle for a fixed loopy or switch to a reciever sight 'till your ship comes in.

Kerry: That .300 dakota sounds like a fine choice for a hunter.

On the 75 yard average sniper shot: That reminds me of the physicist who drowned in a lake with an average depth of six inches. The average is fine. Its the standard deviation that will kill you.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 15:07:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

On CQB guns: Depends on position on the entry team. First man should have a .45 so that he can open doors and mirror around corners and still have a gun in hand. Behind him should be a shotgun or carbine or SMG. (Stealth entry option). For dynamic entry, carbine or SMG. After the flashbangs go off, who has time to use a mirror?

On Home Defense guns, indoors: A shotgun w/light backed up by a .45 cal pistol, the M1911 or variant being my personal preferance. I would never attempt to clear my house, unless I knew a family member was in danger. I'd sit at the top of the stairs with my level IIIa vest on, mossberg 500 loaded and a slug chambered, AMT Hardballer in Condition One; while the wife dialed 911, Browning Hi-Power in hand.

On Home Defense guns,Outdoors. Carbine or shotgun. If I had to penetrate a barrier like a car door I'd switch to M-1 Garand or M1A.

On overpenetration: Don't worry about it. Statistically a police officer in a shootout will fire four rounds and hit the suspect once. What makes the one bullet that hit him more dangerous if it passes through the suspect than the other three that missed? Statistically someone being hit due to a round overpenetrating is (while still a tragedy if its an innocent, or gravy if its another bad guy) a freak occurance. Don't weaken yourself tactically by using ammo that expands too rapidly. Use something that will still be able to reach the heart even if you only have a flank shot and have to shoot through the upper arm. FBI SA Dove was killed by a man he shot using a 9mm Silvertip. The bullet passed through the suspect's side and didn't reach the heart. The wound to the suspect was fatal, but the man still had about 90 seconds to live, in which he killed Dove and another SA and wounded several more SA's.
pete robertson <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 15:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill R. Ground Chicken. Get it. chicken blown all over the ground, ground never mind.

Bravo..When I come out there your gonna have to show me why you are carrying 100lbs of gear! I'm carrying 60 and I'm whinning after 2 miles. At least I have titainium to hold me up! If you are carryin' that damn keg again, welllll...never mind, as long as YOU are carrying it. We can just plop it in the snow and have cold beer!

To all the gents who are askin' 'bout what kind of rifle....just remember, BOLT GUN, LEUPOLD SCOPE, top notch rings and someone on here all you beer and lunch money and get it right the first time. That opinion is comming from someone who has spent tons of money on halfass crap. Either buy a good rifle to use as a base for a cutom job (Rem PSS or Win. Stealth) or just make the hyperjump to one of the really nice cutom jobs. You will save a shipload of money in the long run.

NO GAS GUNS!!! Don't listen to Bravo, he just has too much gas from drinkin' his own beer. HA!

Cory <>
wishin' I was in th e woods today, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 15:28:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Here's a sniping question: In the sniping world, when a sniper puts a bullet into a person's body its called a 'kill' (i.e. Carlos Hathcock was credited with 93 confirmed kills). But since in a military operation no one except the enemy knows for sure if the person shot died or not, shouldn't the correct term be 'hit' instead of 'kill'?

pete robertson <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 15:39:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bushbaby: THe 7mm Rem Mag is a great rifle. I have a Savage 110 in 7mm rem mag with Tasco SS10x42 that is a great sniper rifle. For Balistic info try

Some engineer with way too much time on his hands came up with a program in which you can adjust every variable convievable, like temp, altitude, wind speed and direction etc and come up with your drops.
pete robertson <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 15:54:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pete: as I understand it, a hit is a hit until confirmed. And I honestly don't believe the numbers either. I'd bet a Brew or two that Mr. Mawhenny or Mr. Hathcock did a LOT more than reported, in the numbers anyway. Don't forget they both had '14's as spotters rifles HA! Good ideas on the home defense rifles, particularly the outdoors ones!

Cory: cold weather gear and water mostly. I could cut off a gallon of water and the 0 degree bag, but then I'd either be in a bad way from thirst or hypothermia. As for gas guns, I'll agree kind of. I wouldn't do it half way. A spotters rifle is fine, but accuracy is an "all out" thing.

Wild Bill: you're a complete hoot my friend! Even had to read that one to the wife. I haven't tried the powdered gatoraid, guess I'll have to get some. I'm not much on hiking all day in the 110, I usually find a nice juniper or something to take a 3 hour lunch under till it cools back to 100 HA! You just keep on pegin 'ol Wylie, 'Lito will get their pups with that monster. I want someone else to have the "most dangerous man in America" label. ;-) That monster did bring up something though, I had to have a heart-to-heart with 'Lito about the difference between "spotter" and "gun-bearer" (VBG). And grin real big with the charcoal burner, then send me a pic. Show 'em our heritage!

Leatherneck / Minuteman: Man, with handles like that, I'm feeling better about the country starting NOW ;-) Barrels DO burn out, you're wearing them every time you pull the trigger on a live one. Eventually they just "wear out". With a good caliber, it's a time consuming event. Some calibers are too short. A good number to banty about is 5000 in a 308. The burned out barrel is a matter of pride, along with the empty magazine. I've still got my first barrel that I burned out, just as a keepsake. Dunno why. As for the barrel choices, that's a tough one. My favorite is Kreiger, although if you asked me if I could shoot up to a Douglas XX airgauged, I'd have to admit no. There's many tubes out there that are great, K-P, Douglas, Kreiger, Obermeyer, and I'll even throw Hart in there. I'm sure I missed some too. My Shillen worked really well when it was new, and although it could have been my fault, I won't get another one. If you stick with any of those, and have a good smith build it for you, they'll take you through NRA high master.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Give me Liberty or give me Death!, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 17:01:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

MicTac, Mike I have heard that 78 yard average from ever stupid commander I have worked for. I then say pick a building any building and tell me where the bad guy is and I will tell you how close we can get a sniper too it. We average 200 yards with many being 250-350 away. So much for average. I mean crap if you had three shots taken. One at 20 yards one at 30 yards and one at 600 yards the average would be 300 yard but no 300 yard shot would have been taken. Bottom line is this average stuff is crap. Plan for the worst case, based on your area of opperation. Study your area and do your best at rehearsing possible HRT's

Pete Robertson, a hit is not a kill. You have bad info. Read above for info on stats. But since you asked a bullet needs to do a few things to be effective. Get deep enough to reach the vital orgins, expand or cause enough damge through shock to damage major orgins by either dumpings sufficent energy into the target or expanding to sufficent diameter to cause a large permanent wound channel. That is simplified but holds true. A pistol round that simply passes through dumps very little energy, has a small permanent wound cavity and does a piss poor job of bringing someone down. A pistol round that expands rapidly but does not penetrate does not get to the vitals and again fails. This is why many 9mm rounds have trouble. The 115 silver tip falls short and the 147 goes right through. The 124 +P+ should work but I have never seen anyone hit by it so I wont give an opinion. A friend of mine refers to it as having enough ass end to get deep while having enough girth to mess things up while driving by.
A rifle gets by this by going so fast it causes the tissue and origins to just turn to what I think of as a Slush Puppy. A rifle is very bad stuff to get hit by.

The thing on mirrors and flash bangs. Mirrors are nice for slow searches. I think we have started using flash bangs far too much. Too many Meth labs and friendlys getting hurt. Everyone wants to be the SAS these days. Hell I heard a Tac guy say at a crowdcontrol thing that if the crowd got out of hand he was going to hurl a Flash Bang at them. He meant it and we talked post haste. By the way the 12ga slug over penetrates about as much as anything on this earth.

Cory, Bravo will hunt you down for that Gas Gun Comment. Look for his read cap in the night, defending all gas guns

On the 300 Dakota, it has no business in LE. Another fine caliber but too much for LE and only one source for factory ammo. The 308 is and will continue to rule the sniper community for a long time.

Kevin and Andy, I hope you two make it to New Mexico this summer for some fun in the high sun. A 13 year old is dangerous to teach they just listen and learn. We all could learn from kids.

Where the heck is Rick Boucher?

Dept Dave Rolls get ahold of me. I can not find your email.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 17:06:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Round 2

A wash out, wind, rain, yucky. No self respecting deer would move in this mess. They're stove up in the laurel thickets making little deerlettes I reckon. Anybody have a grenade launcher?

Figgered out what happened yesterday. Geez, slap me in the forehead and call me stupid. Did some dry firing and something just didn't feel right. Checked the trigger weight at a nice crisp 7# and change. My Model 7 is the only one that hasn't had the trigger adjusted to 3.5. I always go for a heart shot on a buck and a head shot on a doe. If I can't get them, I don't shoot. I had about 3" of the heart area exposed on the side of the tree limb at a lttle over 250 yards. Given the facts that I was shaking like a wet dog and was pulling on a heavy trigger, no wonder I pulled it. Now trying to figger out how to cook and eat that limb. Have to eat what you shoot don't you?

Folks the 7mm-08 with a 140 grain is a fine little round for woodsy type shooting. That little Model 7 with a 2.5x8 Lupito is a great little combo for combination hunting with ranges less than 300. Next week it's time for the 300mag for cross hill stuff off the truck hood. Big 14 pointer has been seen on one of my favorite hills.

Had a reloading bud tell me that he doesn't use a neck sizing die, he just doesn't go full length on the full length die. This sounds a little fishy.

Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 17:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anybody know where if and where an authoritative study of muzzle flash exists? I mean, the real nitty-gritty science of it, why some muzzle devices reduce it while others increase it, all else being the same? I have read many times over the years, words to the effect that we don't know why they work, they just do. There's gotta be more to it....?!
Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 17:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anybody know if and where an authoritative study of muzzle flash exists? I mean, the real nitty-gritty science of it, why some muzzle devices reduce it while others increase it, all else being the same? I have read many times over the years, words to the effect that we don't know why they work, they just do. There's gotta be more to it....?!
Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 17:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Leatherneck: I kind of breezed through your general purpose rifle question. This site is sniper oriented so you tend to get answers favoring sniper equipment. We tend to lose sight of the fact that sniper rifles are special purpose weapons. They are next to useless for many of the purposes to which rifles are commonly put.

You said, "I'm looking for a general purpose quality hunting/recreational target rifle to fulfil 85-90% of my needs
and able to fire. The weapon will be used mostly for deer at 300 yrds and target shooting up to 500 yrds and on occasion 600yrds."

You aren't describing a sniper rifle here. You may be happy with a sporter weight Rem-chester with a loopy 2.5X8 Vari-X III with the mil dot reticle. Loopy will install target turrets for about $80, but don't be too sure you need them. I like a .280. It does anything a .270 will do plus you can get a 175 nosler partition going 2650+ fps. If you are careful, that's an elk rifle. If you build up the comb, get the length right, tune it a little and get a nice crisp trigger, you have a much more generally useful rifle than the heavy beasts the guys on this site use professionally.

If your budget is really tight, you may consider using the loopy dual dovetail base/ring set up. Lap them. Dual dovetails need it bad. Put on some lens caps, and an Undude sling and shoot all the surprises out of it. Buy a mil-dot master and learn to use it.

You are looking at about $200 more than you budgeted.

OK roster-hogs. Give Leatherneck your opinion and explain to him why I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 18:44:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

I too had a Reminton 700 P DM that had the barrel contacting the foreend on the left side. I took Sandpaper (220 grit) and passed it between the barrel and the forend holding the top edges together so as not to mar the top edge of the barrel channel. This marked the stock. Next use the sandpaper to remove a little stock in this area with a cardstock backer and repeat. I made clearance but still had a lot more space on the right side. Even so the rifle shot very well typically averaging 1.0 MOA with 3 shot groups at each of 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards. I believe that the contact pattern of the front of the receiver onto the bedding blocks should be two line contacts on either side of the front part of the receiver. I have seen this posted, and it is how my receiver contacts the block as determined with marking paste. I hear lipstick will do. At the back, the tang contacts a few points on either side. You may have to remove a little paint to make sure the receiver contacts the aluminum here. This was mentioned above. This rifle made repeated .3 MOA groups at 100 yards for 5 shots with sufficient barrel cooling between shots. Rapid shooting would open up the groups.

The barrel contacting the channel is not necessarily the result of the bedding block being off. The barrel might not leave the receiver exactly straight. I had this same rifle rebarreled by Hart with a 26" maximum heavy varmit taper barrel as well as having the action squared up, in order to improve the long distance performance during range sessions where the barrel heats up. The only change to the stock required although this is a bigger diameter barrel was minor removal of material in the bottom center rear of the barrel channel. The stock channel work was so minimal they didn't charge for it. The barrel now was dead center in the channel. No change was made to the bedding block. This rifle now average .4 MOA for 3 shot groups shot at each of
200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards with 155 Sierra Palma match bullet out of a 14" twist with turned case necks. The rifle weighs about 12 lbs now with a 6.5X20 Leopold target scope. No bedding was done.

I have been looking for an inexpensive 1/4 inch drive torque wrench to torque the stock bolts. My buddies Snap on wrench went with him to Kansas. Harbor Freight tools has one for $25 in their latest catalog. Haven't got it yet.
John Stranahan <>
Houston, TX, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 19:23:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

My deer hunt, to sum it up, Struck out. Saw some does but no bucks!
Used to be the other way when I was younger and in a different target environment....with brewski and hunting wild beaver.
I am aware of the Park Police shot-that is the LE furtehst distance as far as I know. But on to the FBI- they do keep all sort of statistics but not these. There are some FBI training division guys (Quantico) who researched this-no data. Two possible reasons;
1) Almost all sniper shots are not FBI personnel (at least the ones that don't wind up in federal court). As such, they rely on data given to them and this the distance is not a part of any use of force NCIC report.
2) They may have some data in several different reports on shootings in different places, but no one has collected it into one format. Basically- what limited data they may have may be personal files. I have multiple reports from the FBI but all is ng for sniper data. I and many others were suprised at this too!

Your idea of 78 being the average between house distance sounds like it has merit. I was thinking along those lines myself. I have no doubt of a military sniper shot being much longer on average, We just can't find data sources for the LE.

Undude- see- your average distance just blew the 78 yard average out of the water!

Take care (and pulling for GWB)-Mictac

Mictac <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 19:51:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ned and an "authoritative study of muzzle flash ":

It exists, but I checked the only copy I have every seen out of the university library here and promptly lost it (some GA guard guy probably has it, as I think I left it in the DRC area at Ft. Gordon). It was put out by by some publishing arm (official or orherwise) of the British military academy at Sandhurst and it had a wealth of information of all sort of engineering issues related to firearms.

One was the fields dealt with was intermediate ballistics, which coveres such things as muzzle brake and flash supressor design. In a nutshell, propellants have an excess of "fuel" in them in relation to the powders "oxidiser" content, as excess fuel just results in a bit of additional fowling wheras excess oxidiser results in extreemly corrosive residue, so better the former than the latter, eh? There are manufacturing reasons as well this is so. So, as the powder burns in the chamber and barrel, this bit of fuel is left uncombusted and pushed down the barrel behind the bullet. When the bullet clears the muzzle, this hot cloud of gasious fuel expands violently and slams into the nice, oxygen-laden atmousphere, where it combusts with a nice, bright flash. Flash supressors work by introducing turbulence into the expanding ball of hot, fuel-rich gas and reducing the efficiency with which the combustion takes place. Thats all. Nothing magic about it. :)

Minuteman and Building a Bolt Gun:

When I bought my 700PSS last year, it was only because I could not find a heavy barrel .308 Howa 1500 to work with, as their long-time importer Interams was in the process of going tits-up at the time. I like the Howa action and have had substantial suceess building inexpensive, high-quality hunting rifles on their barrels actions, which wholesale for well under $300, BTW, and prefer it to either Remington or Winchesters, really. The *next* bolt gun I get will *definatly* be something I buld on a Howa. Remintons QC has been too flakey of late for me to bet any more money on them.

Gas Guns that are not M14 or M16 derivatives:

I remain unconvinced that a gas gun cannot be made accurate an reliable enough to perform as well as a bolt gun. I just think that some commonly prefered platforms are overrated for this sort of thing, such as my beloved M14. I think we need to be willing to look further afield for solutions to this problem.

My next attempt will be to put a Douglas XX airgauged tube onto a MAS 49-56. It's cheap to buy, has a low-mass, single-point attaached gas systems like that of the M16 and presents us with some neat ways of floating out the barrel like an M16. The trigger should be tuneable enough. They are also tough as nails.

Which reminds me: what it the OAL of the 6.5-284 cartrige? Something tells me that the MAS gas gun may be very well suited to this round. :)

The FN-49 remains a worthy platform for development as well, particulary if we sh*tcan the OEM gas system*. The trigger mech on the FN-49 is *superb*, tuneable to the N-th degree, and the receiver has a generous, flat bedding surface to work with. I have worked with these in the past but it seems that the FAL-like gas system is allways working against you getting any good accuracy. The potantial remains, I feel.

*Damn, having a lathe is so *liberating*! :)

Gonna' to go make some chips now...

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 20:05:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tom: I too like the FN 49. Good battle rifle. Needless to say, I'm interested in your MAS results, especially so if you plug a 6.5X284 in there! It's folks like you that keep the field growing, congrats! Of course I have to toss in something about the M-14 chassis being not "over rated", but you expected that, right? You're 100% on the oxidizer / fuel stuff too, I've been thinking of playing with that personally. I found an excellent fuel that doesn't run under the same chemistry as the nitro based powders, but it combines with copper quite readily to form a highly unstable explosive. Lacquer coating the INSIDES of the case isn't appealing to me, but I believe it would have NO flash.

John: on a click head torque wrench, you're paying for what you CAN'T see. The adjustable spring inside there that sets the tension. The cheap torque wrenches go south quickly. Snap-on is a great brand, with the only problem being that they expect you to pay with YOUR OWN money.

Patron Mike: That 125 Sierra JHP at 1300 fps count? I like the 9 ;-)

CDC: I would go into detail on what's wrong with your suggestion, but I don't have a recording of silence broken only by crickets. For that range, I'd go with a scope too, not open sights. Besides, 1.5 MOA is just fine for me out to 600, which is moderately easy with a good bolt gun.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Here's the rope, where's the beef?, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 21:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Terminal Ballistics (handguns)

1) Shot placement is key. A .22RF hit to the CNS beats a .44 hit to the buttocks.

2) Chose ammunition which will shoot the target through and through. Two holes to let blood out, two holes to let air in.

3) Keep shooting until the target is down and not moving.

I believe in FMJ ball ammunition. It cycles every time and will penetrate well both before and after reaching the target. I don't have any use for magic bullets except for maybe the 40mm HEDP.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 21:49:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Boltster' the Neck Size die is just more idiot proof and allows you to maintain the same size if you have to change the adjustments. A regular die will do the same thing just requires a little more expertise to get the same result. I've just about quit buying neck dies in favor of that method. Just because of the cost actually.

Ned; I don't know where there is a run down on it. Jerry Rice builds a real good one and knows more about it than I want too. But he sells them and is very busy. He is at the NORCAL site listed in our links here. If you have a GOOD question, I'm sure he will help but respect his time as it's mostly taken up.

Brav; let me know how you do on the Gator Aide thing if you do decide to try it.

LE ranges; Am I wrong in thinking the situation has more to do with it than anything else. LE may not have to shoot as far but they have to do it with extreme precision. There's no room in a political shooting gallery like we have today for error. Look at the situation in Idaho. A mistake is a big political issue. One should have less than 1 moa accuracy and be able to make it happen out to 200 meters if a hostage situation is involved. But due to the bullet path at closer ranges... LE should pay close attention to closer shots and the exact bullet path. Know your clicks to dead center even at closer ranges of 35 to 200 meters. Usually a rifle is dead on 2 places about 35 and again 200. A sniper worth his salt should be able to track anywhere inbetween.

Carlos; has 93 Confirmed, that means DOA. and somebody seen the body. a hit (casualty) is not a confirmed kill as far as I know. It may have been stretched to include someone drug off with a hole in his head at times... but I've heard estimates of as many as 300 occured during the 93 count. According to the history I have dug up on it.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 21:49:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Confirmed Kills

To be a confirmed kill somebody other than the shooter has to "put a boot on the body" (step on it). Otherwise it's a probable so long as the hit is witnessed by someone other than the shooter. No witness no record. This will probably be the rule until they put gun-cameras on the SWS.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 23:19:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo-I would prefer a flexible beam type torque wrench as they are less prone to lose the accuracy they were made with. I have not seen any 1/4" drive models for sale. All you really need to do is reproduce the same torque each time you take the rifle appart. A beam type would be able to do this if it was a small in-lb model. A calibrated snap-on would get you closer to 65 in-lbs each time. Anybody seen a 1/4 inch drive beam style torque wrench for sale. (I have a dead clicker type 1/2 inch that cost over a $100 already. I'm not very fond of them for occasional use.)
John Stranahan <JohnStranahan>
Houston, TX, USA - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 23:24:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi Guys,

I'm looking for a little bit of information from you guys that own Remington PSS's.

I'm looking at an opportunity that I have here in Canada to become a Remington Law Enforcement Distributor under my company, On Target Shooting Supplies. I would like to explore the possibility of selling these rifles to American citizens. In essence, the customer would be buying the rifle directly from a distributor, allowing them to get the best deal possible.

Question is, what are these rifles selling for in the US? We don't get Shotgun News up here, so I have no idea what they are going for. For a benchmark, let's assume the rifle is a standard model in .308 Winchester.

Any info. would be greatly appreciated!


Jeff Babineau <>
Canada - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 23:34:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

No Comments just a Question. I'm a Master Sniper in the Canadian Military, in the past I have done alot of work with Sniper Units from all over the world. I have noticed alot of spree decor! Which is excellent to see, you don't get this in other units like you do in Sniper units! I have also noticed that alot of other Sniper Units have a Unit coin! So I have designed one for ours. On the front is a side shot of a skull with cross hairs including the mil dots, with our motto Without Warning, Without Conscience. On the back we have the maple leaf from our flag with the serial number of the coin. But we are missing a good saying for the back ie DUCIMUS which means "WE LEAD". Now for the question is there anyone with a good one for the back of our coin? Email me at

Thanks Tim
Tim <>
Winnipeg, MB, Canada - Saturday, November 25, 2000 at 23:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

I need some advice guys.

I had an interesting experience a wile ago up at the range. One of my friends invited me to join him in testing out his a newly acquired Colt gold cup. In that I rarely turn down an offer such as this, I accepted and made my way over to the pistol range. Anyway, skipping ahead, a friend of my friend showed up with his Beretta 92F soon after, and offered me a chance to try this out too. Later, I found out that this friend of a friend has loaded some insanely hot +p+ FMJ loads for some ridicules reason, contributing to the following events. I took aim and squeezed the trigger, only to have the slide BLOW OFF the frame on my first shot and strike me in the shoulder. Needless to say, this surprised the hell out of me. I let loose with a few choice remarks, holding my shoulder wile my stunned audience looked on. Anyway, the problem is that I have developed a nasty flinch as a result. I have been shooting nothing but .22 since in an attempt to repair this, but to no effect. Is there something else I can do? I'm flinching in anticipation like than a newbie with a ten gauge. It's really embarrassing and does not facilitate good shooting. :(

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I know there has to be some trick 'lito learned off an old hunter, or some method passed through Bravo's family for generations, so let loose with this one guys. I need help!

Ryan Lloyd

Ryan <>
Penticton, British Columbia, Canada - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 01:09:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Becoming a Marine Officer is something that I am seriously considering. I have noticed that there are a number of marines that visit this site, and I would like to hear from you what life is like inside the Corp. I am married, and would especially like to get all the information that I can about how being a Marine Officer will impact upon my family. What is family life like in the Corp? How well does the Corp recognize families, etc. (support, schools, whatever) My wife was enlisted Air Force, so I know a lot about the AF, and what life on an AF base is like, but what is life like on a Marine base? Similar, different, how? As an officer, how often will we be moved?
Thank you for all of your input and insight! Wolfgang
Wolfgang <>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 01:19:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Tim,

For being a Canuck, your French sucks! Don't you mean "esprit de corps"?

Just kiddin' with ya' there big guy.
The Beaver Light Bandit <beaver@damnfinelookin'>
Canada - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 01:21:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ned -

Authoritative muzzle flash stuff - Go to

Click on "Patents" then scroll down nearly to the end of the list until you find "Smith Enterprises Patent # 5,596,161"

This is the original patent info for the Smith Enterprises Vortex Flash Suppressor. While it deals primarily with the .223/5.56 cartridge, the info should be fairly generic to your question.

Moe Mensale <>
still waiting in palm beach counting, FL, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 01:22:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just watch Suicide Mission, Snipers again and I swear I see something different every time I watch it. When Chuck said 16 floated down the river, would those have been counted in his total? This question is based on Kevin's boot explanation.

John, I have a beam type and just simply put a 1/2-1/4 drive converter on it.

Ryan, 1st mistake was shooting someone else's reloads, bad juju. Unless I 'know the guy as good as a brother I never had' I won't even shoot someone else's weapon anymore. Now I could make exception for the guys, well most of them, on this site especially if I could get a shot with 'Lito's new toy! I learned that the hard way myself that is why I am ordering all my dies and stuff next week.
On the flinch, after laying off shooting for a year or so several years ago, I had the same problem. The 300 was knocking hell out of me and was effecting every other rifle I shot. I went back to dry firing in a perfectly dead quiet room. I then started back with the 22 and worked my way up. This was a repeat of the same situation I had in college when I tried a "buds" 458.

Again for those that want a 'combination' scope please determine what your main use will be. If it is hunting or punching paper you don't want the mildots. I have determined in my short time here that not many people really need mildots unless you are going to set it up for real sniping use or play sniping like I want to at the matches one of these days. Most hunting applications are for 400 yards or less and a standard duplex can be used as a range finder at that distance and beyond. Same goes for spotting scopes, if it isn't going to be used for sniping stay away from the mildots, they will worry you to death on a bench or in the field looking at whistle pigs and little stuff.

Bill R. if the neck sizers are 'idiot proof' I definitely need one LOL! I'm trying to find someone locally that I trust just to show me how to get started. Reading a book and watching someone do something are two different things.

Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 01:53:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ryan Lloyd...

I'll give it my best shot (sorry... I couldn't help it ;))

Flinch is caused by anticipation, and it is made worse, by delibrate target shooting... where you are holding on the target, and waiting for a perfect sight picture... it gives you time to worry about the physocological issues of the blown up gun... all subconcious!

Get a full sized pistol, like a .45 (1911's are GREAT medicine!), or a 40S&W, or 9mm... something with some "Whack", a pistol you have faith in (not a Barreta 92 ;)... and get involved in some very fast shooting. Try IDPA or IPSC matches, or a local club that does metal plate shooting.

The speed and pressure of the match will force you to shift your thoughts, and you won't think about the pistol (you won't have time)... you'll need a full season of this (tell your wifie it's medicinal!! Rx by Dr, Pablito ;)

If you can't find a club that has steel or speed matches, get a steel semifore target from Cabella's, and take it to the range, or a sand lot, and start at 10yds, and hammer the sucka', keeping the plates moving back and forth, and doing magazine changes on the fly... get to the point that you don't miss, and can hit the plates all the time, then move the target out to 10yds, and then 15yds, 20 yds, and 25yds etc.
This regemine will force your brain to retrain itself into a new shooting pattern, and you will relize you lost your flinch somewhere along the line... and you will be a damn good shot in the process.

John Stranahan
For a good "snap" wrench, go to Premier Reticles... they carry one for $65 (a buck an inch/pound;)... they are made by one of the best companies, who's name escaps me now.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 02:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for all the comments so far on the rifle buildup. A few more things to consider. Just doing a little research before jumping in.

Bill R. The reason that I was leaning toward the Douglas barrel is that when I was shooting AR15s in Alaska before I moved, there were a couple of regulars out at the range that had BUILT ARs. One of them had a Douglas barrel and the other a Kreiger, both stainless. They both talked of excellent accuracy, but while I never saw the results of the Kreiger, I DID see some of the results with the Douglas. Amazing groups for offhand shooting with an AR and open sights. That's not to say that I think the rest of the barrel brands are junk, just that I have not seen the results.

BTW Bill R. and Bravo: My chosen handle is taken from the name of my firearms business, The Minuteman Armory, and from my beliefs in what the original minutemen stood for.

Somewhere I saw a picture of the Fast Action bolt handle conversion. Does anyone know who does this, and how to contact them? The bolt handle is one thing that I really like about the Steyers.

Any other comments welcomed.


"Those who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
Minuteman <>
Holding out for spring and my move to Montana backwoods, MO, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 02:34:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the tips on the science of flash hiding, yous guys. The patents page was especially interesting. I have been making brakes of all kinds for more than a decade, and I have always found it easy to make an effective one for rifles-- there is just so much gas to work with. Not until the last year or so have I paid much attention to muzzle flash, and I have been keeping my eyes peeled for hard-science literature on the subject. My most current brakes seem to do the job on flash but I haven't tested thoroughly with lots of different loads. The one I put on my CAR 15+ years ago is an extremely effective brake but doubles as a flamethrower. So much so that I almost want to say, yeah, I made it that way on purpose, it's a, um, force multiplier.
Ned <>
Fluville, MI, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 02:41:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
Well here's some more questions that i've been thinking about.
What action should I use to build a sniper quality rifle Remington 700 or Wincester M70 CA? And is a prebuilt rifle more cost effective than a custom job? And how would you guys rate these rifles?
Winchester Sharpshooter.
Remington 700 PSS.
McMillian Tactical.
Dakota Longbow.
Thanks a bunch Kerry

P.S. The .300 Dakota would not be used for hunting. It is going to be built for 1000 yrd matches. CDC I realy would like to know your opinion on the caliber you use on the job and why.
Kerry <>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 02:55:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Minuteman: my M-25 wears a custom turned Kreiger. The CAR wears a custom turned Douglas. Both are great, one costs MUCH less. You decide.

Bolt: if I remember what I read, when Chuck did his nifty M-14 work, he was alone. Therefore, no, none of them counted. Your comments on shooting other folks' reloads is virtually identical to what I was told (and what I live by). Except to put it nicely, someone you would trust to prep you for a vasectomy surgery ;-)

Ryan, I'm no expert, and I certainly won't negate Patron 'Lito's advice, but I will advocate dry fire. I picked up a flinch also, when I was 19 or so. Just like Patron Mike did to me, I got a huge cartridge waved at me with the "ya wanna give 'er a try?", and of course I did. Before it was a double of 505 Gibbs, but I didn't learn too much and shot that 50 BMG too. HA! I have to say though that the 50 was a PUSSYCAT in comparison to the Gibbs. Tony makes GREAT muzzle brakes, the Gibbs didn't have one. This having been said, it's difficult for me to fathom what kind of a round would have to be loaded to blow the slide off a Beretta. A compressed charge of Bullseye? I've run the 115's to 1400 (to see where the pressure signs started), it was happy.

John: beam types are fine, look at (ahem) Sears. The important thing is to get the range you need, with no conversions (don't ask), the drive can be stepped down. They used to sell them, I'm assuming they still do.

Wolfgang: My wife didn't care for the "housing area politics", but if your wife was AF, then she knows what she's in for. In many ways it was the best of times. Cheap good beer at the class 6, and good friends I could depend on any time. Did I mention a lack of crime rate? HA! The only thing that stuck in my craw bad was having to register my weapons.

Ron Paul, House of Representatives, Texas: "Strictly speaking, it probably is not "necessary" for the federal government to tax anyone directly; it could simply print the money it needs. However, that would be too bold a stroke, for it would then be obvious to all what kind of counterfeiting operation the government is running. The present system combining taxation and inflation is akin to watering the milk; too much water and the people catch on."
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Did I mention I like Ron Paul?, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 03:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

More torque wrenches listed at the below site than you can shake a screw at. Or just do an internet search on "torque wrenches".
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 03:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looks as if the NRA and Heston have finally found the much awaited donor for the spine transfer they've been waiting for. I'd like someone to verify what I got, that Heston is now talking of "revolution", "civil war", and "fighting as our forefathers fought" in a large (3500 or so) West Virginia rally. If so, I might have to join again. I refused my membership when they started writing gun control legislation and agreeing to (backing) unconstitutional efforts. GOA doesn't do that.

"PATRIOTS are not "Revolutionaries" trying to overthrow the government of the United States. PATRIOTS are "Counter-Revolutionaries" trying to prevent the government of the United States from overthrowing the Constitution of the United States." Author Unknown
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Looks like the unorganized militia is organizing, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 03:59:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo -

I got that impression too, that Heston "seems" to be throwing down the white glove. But this sounds so very un-NRA that it's really confusing.

It would be interesting to see if anything regarding Heston's comments and/or this rally show up on the NRA website.

Moe Mensale <>
algwhore - meet charlie heston, FL, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 04:19:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kerry: If you don't count the rifles I carried when I was guiding, the only rifle I carried professionally was a .223. Shooting a hard recoiling rifle for 500 rounds a week will give you a flinch. Guys are going to the softer recoiling rifles like the 7mm Lazeroni and 6.5X.284 for the 1,000 yard matches. I'm going to a .300 win next season, but that's because I'm not very smart and the rifle is going to double as a long range hunter. Flinch gets me too so I do most of my practice with lighter recoiling rounds. The .308 I used last year shoots well enough but it doesn't hit hard enough at 600+ yards for big game.

Remington vs Winchester: Check the archives. We chewed all the meat off that bone.

CDC' <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 04:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

In regards to the Douglas barrel I had a 300 Win Mag built a few years back, Mauser, Mcmillan,and Douglas air guaged(#6 carbon steel)the fellow who built this rifle is meticulos, to say the least and it shows. It is as reliable as a rock, It is most consistent Hot cold clean or dirty(it doesn't really get very hot here and I don't let her get very dirty either) This rifle is not at all finicky but I generally shoot 190 SMK I maintain under 1 moa at 300 meters and I am the limiting factor.Would I use Douglas again? It's on the way,this one a .338, undecided on which flavor maybe a 338-08 or a 338 Hawk. Anyone have any experience with the Hawk? I went out looking for a reciever, Somewhat dissapointed when did they switch from Mills and Lathes to Chainsaws(dull) Curious as to the quality and finish of the new Sako receiver?

Wishing all a nice holiday season,

Thanks Rabon

Rabon <>
AlaskaI, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 04:36:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC writes:The .308 I used last year shoots well enough but it doesn't hit hard enough at 600+ yards for big game.**********

Umm, I'm hoping I read that wrong. What kind of reason do you have for shooting at big game beyond perhaps 350-400yds? Please tell me you only shoot at wounded game that might get away, otherwise I'll have to say that this is very poor judgement. Semper Fidelis...

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 05:11:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello all.

Great restraint shown by everyone in these tense political times, nice to see generally civil discourse and continued conversation.

Bolt, what Bill forgot to specify for you re. neck resizing; you are right that partial resizing in a full-length die is not any kind of substitute for neck resizing. The neck sizing in a f.l. die is done up at the top of the die -or the base of the die would be too small for the body of the cartridge! The idea with the neck die is to resize the neck without first resizing the entire cartridge.

I don't neck resize either...yet...because I inherited thousands of resized, trimmed and polished cases! (no I don't throw them away)


Chris <>
Westford, mass, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 06:15:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chris and Boltster; Chris is right but the neck is sized about the last 3/8 Inch and it uniform in all the cartridges I know of or use. (Untapered) I too would prefer the neck sizer die but the trick is to leave just a very small amount of space between the shell holder and the die base. This will avoid setting back the shoulder which is the real purpose of neck sizing only. I doubt you will ever, ever see any difference in accuracy from a FL die or a neck sizer although the Neck sizer is easier to use. Actually the FL may be a little easier to chamber since the case is reformed some. Some neck size dies do this too but actually the distance between the head and the shoulder is what you're trying to maintain within reason of course. I don't use the neck size dies anymore cause they are harder to find around and didn't net me any improvement. In some cases I wanted to resize the case taper to a small degree without pushing the shoulder back if you get my drift.
I'll give you my VOO DOO twist on flinching if you want it for what it's worth. I like to think it is my nerves and not my brain that I'm working with. My brain says don't flinch my but involuntary nerves seem to get the job done without instructions from me. I switch to something ridiculous to show the nerves that it can get worse so just get used to it. It works for me. I once developed a bad flinch shooting .44 magnums in Sillouete competetion. I chambered a contender barrel for .444 Marlin and cured it for that time till now.
This may not work for everyone but the .44 seemed to be such a pussy cat that I just didn't flinch any more. I've not needed further therapy for the past 15 years or so. It's what you think will work sometimes that does. Be sure you don't go into a bad pain threshold though cause you may undue what you're doing. If it's bruising you've went too far. Just FYI I never cured anything by retiring to a smaller caliber. That doesn't work for anyone I know of. I'd have to see that, but I have seen guys claim it worked until I put them on the line and they go to hell in a handbag.
MInute man, sorry for the Rib... Your Name and purpose suits me fine. Sometimes I'm just a pain in the arse trying to entertain the troops. What the world needs now is some good Minute men!
We may all meet at the Washington Monument before it's over.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 06:52:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gotta chime in on the anticipation/dry fire deal.

There are different types of errors caused by improper trigger control. Generally speaking you got your flinching, bucking and jerking.

Flinching is involuntary muscle tensioning due to fear of recoil which is usually initiated by a painful experience, excessive recoil, eating a scope etc. Shots can go anywhere.

Bucking happens when the mind tries to resist the recoil BEFORE it happens. This is easily seen when a shooter encounters a dud or dummy round and the weapon dips. This is often covered up by recoil and is a common reason for low shots but can also cause high shots if the shot launches on the weapons upward trip after the dip. When all a shooter fires is combat style shooting (IDPA pistol for example) the shooter can develop a "post recoil push" that will reveal itself occasionally with a bad shot. This happens to me every now and then when I am firing a string of fire and I interupt my rythym to dress up a shot. I pause and the shot isnt fired when it normally would be but the "post recoil push" happens anyway and the muzzle takes a dive. Everyone that has had this happen to them raise your hand....lets count...1,2,3,,,5,871. Okay its a common thing. Who made that comment about a recount?! Damn Democrats!!

Jerking the trigger usually puts the rounds low and right for a right handed shooter and low and left for a lefty. It happens when a shooter tries to force the shot and yanks the trigger at an angle other than straight to the rear.

ALL of these are MENTAL errors since the mind controls the body/muscles. If a shooter develops any of these errors he must work on the mind. Now there are different approaches to solving this problem but I like to use a twofold approach of visualization coupled with dry/sub-caliber firing. The shooter needs to program his mind with the process he wants to follow and then rehearse that process through dry firing or firing air or .22 cal weapons.

Target shooting (I assume we are talking about slow fire) does not develop bad reflexes/habits unless the shooter is using bad technique. On the contrary slow fire develops some good habits pressing the trigger straight to the rear should be one of them. When shooting slow fire from a standing position the shooter may use interupted trigger pressure since the rifle/pistol tends to drift in and out of the aiming area and this is a good technique for an unstable position. But when a shooter has a a steady position he needs to ensure that he is using UNinterupted trigger control, not babying the trigger, no fifi grips etc.

Hammering massive amounts of rounds down range will not develop good trigger control on its own. THe shooter should practice rapid fire, double taps, retention drills etc. but every now and then the shooter needs to slow back down and shoot groups for precision.

The whole idea is to train the mind to press the trigger straight to the rear (whether it is slowly or rapidly) without disturbing the sight alignment.

Seems like everyone is quoting quotes these days. I'll use one from WWII. "Loose lips sink ships". I think we need to be careful what we say on here and remember who reads this thing. Onelists too...nudge nudge...
Gooch <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 07:12:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just posted and read Bills comments and thought I needed to add something to my post on subcal/air rifles. Dry fire/Subcal/air rifles are used as aids not on thier own. You still have to grab the steer by the horns and fire full power loads and when you use the subcal/air rifles you still have to use a firm grip, proper positions etc.

Out here,
Gooch <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 07:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ummmm if we are all members of the militia and the anti gunners say the second ammendment only applies to the militia then whats the problem? We're all in the militia!!!

Title 10 USC. Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

Out here.
Gooch <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 10:26:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch you wrote:

> "Loose lips sink ships". I think we need to be careful what we say on here and remember who reads this thing. Onelists too...nudge nudge...<

Can you please go into some detail here. I just don't get it. Are you concerned with OPSEC or Politics?

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 11:51:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


I think I may be able to help you with at least a couple such AARs we have been discussing. I set up a sniper course for NESPAC years back and while I had to bow out since I went overseas is still running and has amassed quite a bit of that kind of stuff.

Give me a few days and I'll get back to you.

Jefe <>
VT, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 13:00:05 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just got a great article from Cyclops on this subject out of Infantry Magazine (yeah ok, there were plenty of illustrations so I could understand it..).

If anyone wants a copy, email me. I will scan it and send it.

It is without question one of the best sniper lessons I've learned in a while and if you are currently a military sniper, its a must read.


God (and the rest of this board) knows that I should be the last individual ever to cast a stone. But, that phrase "without conscience" might be reconsidered.
Jefe <>
VT, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 13:25:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch, you wrote -

Title 10 USC. Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a)The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

So, what does that definition do to those male individuals who find themselves 45 years of age and older through no fault of their own? HA! By default, are we to be considered criminals if we possess weapons appropriate for militia use? Maybe we just get appointed to the rank of LtC and higher? ;-)

On another note, I recently ran across an article you wrote on the use of mil-dot scopes in Tactical Shooter. Super job! Not the typical sterile "Ben Stein" monologue approach. I have printed this out for future use and safekeeping. Kudos to you!

Moe Mensale <>
waiting in palm beach counting, FL, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 13:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address:



Am thinking about a training plan for military snipers (not Special Ops) for people who have already graduated sniper school and have at least 6mos in a sniper slot. Pls look over and send feedback and thanks in advance.

Course Goal:

To continue the snipers professional development beyond the basic skill level one tasks specific to snipers covered in the basic course, provide training on the planning/conduct of sniper missions and prepare the sniper NCO to become an effective sniper employment officer.


Snipers are becoming an increasingly valuable resource for the unit/CDRs on todays battlefield, particullarly in operations other than war.

While the basic course covers the skill level one tasks crucial for the sniper, it does not train them on the collective tasks or advanced skills necessary to effectively accomplish the sniper mission.


Two weeks.

Topics Covered:

Troop Leading Procedures
Coordination with Fire Support, Intel, Commo and Forward Units
Order of Battle
Counter-Sniper Operations (includes sniper stalks vs. snipers)
Fire Support
NATO Debriefing
Commo (field expedient antennaes, opskeds, etc.)
Reporting Formats
Advanced Stalking (Same as normal, except you get pursued or indirect
fire called on you. You don't have to engage as
close as normal).
Moving Targets (much more intensive work than the basic course)
Night Sniping Operations (how to classes/live fires)
Insertion/Extraction Techniques
Air Operations (establish/run an LZ/PZ, Aerial Resupply, poncho
parachutes etc.)
Sniper Employment
FTX's (2 three day FTX's, graded)

The sequence is not in the order the classes would be conducted. It's pretty rough, but if anyones got some ideas, please pass them on. if nothing else I can get this plan approved at the unit level with some work.

I already see the time crunch and would bag Order of Battle before anything else. Lots of the patrolling oriented classes, commo, fire support should be brief since everyone should have a good handle on that stuff already (in theory anyways).

Thanks to everyone in advance.


Jefe <>
VT, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 13:53:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt, Bravo, Pablito, Rob -Thanks for the replies on the torque wrench.

So here is the results-

a beam type 1/4 inch drive 0-60 inch-lb for about $38 at the web address in Bolts Post.

The Leopold MK IV ring torque wrench 65 in-lb. Cannot be used to remove the bolts.

The Badger ordinance ring torque wrench 65 in-lb, 85 in-lb in reverse so it can be used to remove the bolts. $65 at Premier Reticles.

Clicker type wrenches starting at about $130

Cheap imported clicker wrench at Harbor Freight tools for $25

Tahnks again.

John Stranahan <>
Houston, TX, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 14:33:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Minuteman, Steyr type handles are available from Georgia Precision and AWC. I have an AWC handle on my short barrel .308 and absolutely love it. AWC was $90. I think GP goes $10 cheaper., look under custom rifles...last entry.
Bill0294 <>
Clearwater... Oh look!! I just found a box of ballets in my closet!, FL, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 14:58:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
Man, go to bed and wake up and the Rosterferians have been up all night posting! That is dedication.

Starting with Kerry:
On the rifle question, IMHO I would go with factory rifle until you decide you want to get REALLY serious in this game. A factory rifle will cost you less than $800 and a custom will cost you ~$5,000(I really want a Norcal but I want to eat also). The factory will still probably outshoot you, I know mine will. You do the math. If you have the bucks, go for the gold. Listen to the gurus here and get you a good ole Rem 700 VS 308, Badger bases and rings, a Lupito M3, one of Undude's slings, a Mildot Master, a Slope Doper, a data book, a shit load of ammo, and go from there. If you really like the game, get the muther blue printed and maybe change the barrel out.
On the 1000 yard gun go to and for more information. IMHO the 30 caliber anythings are not the calibers of choice.

Goochmaster has it right again. After Friday's antics I feel like a flinching, bucking, jerkmaster. Last nightI tried dryfiring the 7# trigger for about a half hour and it isn't worth the time to continue. I looked at a scope-cut on my thumb and realized I didn't even have my thumb wrapped around the stock when I fired. It is tough to learn/practice/implement when you are by yourself without experienced people watching what you do. It takes me a long time to break bad habits.

One the 600 yard big game hunting shot, shame on anyone that would take it. IMHO it is unethical and you are doomed to wound and not find the animal. If you feel you have to take a shot that long, you need to review your stalking procedures. It is cannon fodder for every animal rights group known to shooters. It is very simple to determine the maximum, IMHO 400 yards, shot by using a duplex scope reticle. Figure the anatomy of the game that you are hunting by taking the average height of the back to chest dimension, on a big whitetail that would be about 20". Draw two dark horizontal lines that distance apart on a piece of paper and hang it up on a post. Drop back 400 yards and see where the lines line up on on your vertical duplex posts at maximum power. You should never take a shot if the back to chest distance on the animal less than your reticle reference.

Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 15:11:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken: I'm going to extend my deer range, but not past the range where I can get good hits.

Torque wrench: The wrench Premier sells will remove stock screws. $65 and it works good. I haven't checked the calibration.

Flinch: What helped me was to 'see through' the shot. When dry-firing watch your reticle on the target through the fall of the firing pin. There should be almost no movement. Live fire as you dry fire. See through the fall of the firing pin. If you are paying that kind of attention through that interval, you haven't time to flinch.

CDC' <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 15:12:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

John, I also have the Premier wrench. Remember you can also use it to remove and replace you reciever screws to the proper 65# torque.
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 15:15:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
On comments about CDC shooting game at 600 yards. No absolutes here. On some days I would do this and some I would not. Very little wind, big kill zone and good zeros, no problem. I have to back CDC on this. Now most hunters cannot hit at 50 yards so for them they should never try it. Man some guys cannot shoot. If you are dialed you can make head shots at 500-600 so a damm Elk should be pretty easy to hit. Again I know when I can gurantee the hit and when I cannot so you be the judge of yourself. I see CDc with the right equipment making the hit under good conditions.

Jeff, sounds like a good advanced tyep class.

On the torque wrench, mine came from Brownells. Works well no problems in two years.

Gooch good to see you back.

Guys some info on camo please. I have been working with the sew on burlap approah for a heavy suit. Seems to work fine. On another board a Gunny says that sew on is no good. Anyone else try the sew on. No net to snag and you control the burlap just like the net approach/

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 15:59:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Undude, you may be right on CDC and the long shot issue. I may have been a little harsh. If someone can CONSISTANTLY make vital organ shots at a specified distance, in all kinds of weather(or a self limiting weather situation), from a good supported position, using a caliber with enough ass to make a KILL, then I reckon I could make an exception to my unethical theory.

I lost a arrow gut shot doe about 15 years ago and it has bothered me ever since. I hate the thought of a wounded animal that I can't find and now I have gotten so conservative in my shots that I pass up a lot of them. I now my limitations and stay within them.

I think a lot of the problems that I have with hunters in general is that they just don't practice enough to be competent in shooting at distances over a 100 much less at 600. I know at least three "hunters" that may take a shot 1 time a year and then put the rifle back in the closet. Needless to say neither of them could hit a pie pan at a hundred yards. These are the people that I stay away from.
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 16:21:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch's point is well taken. As American Militiamen and Patriots ..We need to be cool and lie in the "tall grass". I think all American's are deeply concerned but there is no real "Crisis" until the avenues are exhausted and certainly there is danger there but we who are Patriots don't need to add to the bedlam. The rule of law is there to prevent what some are suggesting or even advocating and we can only hope it prevails to settle it off the streets. I wish Demonstrators would go home myself but they have the right! Everyone needs to stay cool and we can always go to hell and insurrection later on!

CDC;s comment on .308's at 600 yards. Althought it's been touted in circles that X# yards = ethical Limit. Antelope out here are taken by flat shoot long range rifles at distances approaching 600 all the time. I would not shoot Elk with a .308 expecting clean kills more than 300 yards but with the .338 Magnum it's well within limits. With LAZER range finders and Bipod set ups we are extending the range plain and simple but still the ethics are involved. I get concerned about Penetration on Big Animals like Elk or Bear at distances over 300.
But this isn't hunting ethics Country either. Back to business.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 16:22:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt and Ken: My .300 handles just like my .220 Swift and real close to my 6mm. I use the varmint calibers through the late winter and spring, then will switch to the .300 for the summer's 1,000 yard matches. The rifle will be thouroughly checked out. All long shots will be shot from the bipod/beanie baby prone at known distances. If the wind or the light is iffy: No shot. If the animal is moving: No shot. If I have a bad angle: No shot.

I hate slob hunters as much as anyone.

CDC' <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 16:33:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: I'll stand with Patron Mike on this one. And for those of you who haven't shot with CDC, I'll tell you this. If he's got a shot he feels real good about, you wouldn't see me raising my head at 600 and letting him take a "non-moving" shot at MY pot, even with an older steel one.

Wild Bill: The Redding S type neck sizers allow independent sizing of the case body and neck, or how much of the neck, and one of the benefits of the bushing system is that the bushing centers on the case neck, not the other way around. And on hiding in the tall grass: Thomas Jefferson (letter to William S. Smith, Nov. 13, 1787): "... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Kent: excellent post on the flinching AND the militia! 100%. Now, if people would understand that, and US vs Miller (which says that M-16A2's are constitutionally protected, but someone's Winchester 30-30 isn't necessarily), maybe the US and the world would be a better place.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Still holding off on the Patrick Henry speach, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 17:14:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill R.: No offense taken on the rib. All in fun!

Bravo and Rabon: Thanks for the CAR/Douglas info. Getting closer to a decision.

Bill M.: Got the e-mail. Will have to look into it further.

Has anyone seen the Ed Brown rifle? That action looks bulletproof. M16 type extractor. Hmm...

Bill0294: Saw the Fast Action bolt. That's the one! Thanks!


Minuteman <>
Hartville, MO, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 17:24:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike, I have my ghillie sewn to the suit. A little dab of shoe goo to the end of the burlap and I sew it on. It does make for more time consuming repairs, but it does not end up with knots tied in a net. If you sewn some para cord loops on before (the burlap) you have attachments for natural vegetation.
You will want to sew your sling QD cuff on to the suit PRIOR to mounting of all the burlap - It is a real bitch attempting to do it after TRUST ME.
Ghillie suit opinions seem to spread a range of options. Provided it does provide some degree of camoflague, what ever you are the most comfortable with (and in) would be best.

Kevin <>
Canada - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 17:37:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey CDC.
You know your stuff. People jumping the gun on your long range game shots don't think about the conditions, the shooters skill, the caliber weapon or how big is big game. You said it with the bad angle, moving animal, or iffy wind. You use your own judgment. If you can do it take the shot if not don't.

On the subject of flinching it can be a problem for anybody.
I just remind myself that it ain't gonna kill me and wait for the recoil. And there is nothing wrong with a good recoil pad and shooting jacket. as for hand guns dry firing works along with guided practice (ie someone there to tell you you screwing up) And as a lot of you have said "take your time. Slow down."
Thank guys Kerry
Kerry <>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 18:13:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

How accurate can a Ruger M14 be? I am considering an auto loader for a 250 yd varmint gun. Have tried an AR15, accuracy was/is good, don't like the scope mount system, and think the Ruger would carry easier. Am looking for 1 MOA or better. would consider some accurizing steps, if cost, and result effective.
Luckydog <>
Logandale, Nevada, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 18:15:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
How accurate can a Ruger M14 be? I am considering an auto loader for a 250 yd varmint gun. Have tried an AR15, accuracy was/is good, don't like the scope mount system, and think the Ruger would carry easier. Am looking for 1 MOA or better. would consider some accurizing steps, if cost, and result effective.
Luckydog <>
Logandale, Nevada, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 18:15:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
I think this question is a loaded one, but here goes. Who makes the best reloading press for the money, and where is the best place to pick one up? I have 2 rifle calibers to load for (.308 and .338 win mag) and one pistol caliber. I am looking for a press and some dies. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.
John Price <>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 18:21:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jefe:Land navigation(night nav,ariel photos)
Route selection (primary,secondary)
Live fire stalks
Patrolling techniques(bounding over watch,button hooks,forward
hooks double hooks)
Immediate action drills (breaking contact SOP sniper spotter)
Class should run full 2 weeks in the field with stand down on day
7 and graded 3 day FTX. Just some thoughts.
Undude: How do you plan on attaching natural vegitation on you suit
with no netting? maybe 550 cord? burlap is extremely heavy
wet. How heavy is you suit going to be? I like a light 2
suit green cordura on front and IR netting on back attached
with para cord. mixed with dyed burlap not alot!(light)
Most important of all topped off with natural vegitation!!!!
You are going to hang up (snag) no matter what.
Rifle in one hand-shears in the other

To all: I enjoy the roster for its subject(sniping) not all the quotes
from our forefathers and all the rest of the political B.S.
Please keep your political opinions to yourselves and get back to the subject of the roster! Hondo Out

Hondo <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 18:31:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Luckydog: depends on how much you want to spend. For under $300 you can keep the factory barrel and get it in the 1 to 1.25 MOA range. For another $200 (the price of a post-ban AR) you can get 1/2 MOA or less from a better barrel. I suggest the ranch model for scope mounting.

John Price: I've used the Hornady progressives now for quite some time and I'm happy. You can't go wrong with a Dillon either. As for dies though, I'm completely sold (thanks to Patron 'Lito) on the Redding BR dies, with the addition of that Lyman M die. Match ammo at low cost.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Semper Fi, and the NEXT 3 WORDS!, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 18:33:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the subject of recoil pads......

I need to extend my LOP about 1/2" or so and was also wanting to dump the factory pads for something more forgiving to my injury ridden shoulder. Any suggestion on a woosey pad for Rem 700 Senderos? Have a shooting jacket but really not practicle for field conditions in the summer.
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 18:52:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo; everyday you learn me something! I didn't know the Reddings centered on the neck. I should examine them. I use RCBS Mostly and find them troublesome at times but easy to obtain. Now that I'm down to only a couple of calibers' maybe I should convert. I've seen the posts before. Never read the Jefferson Quote either.... I need to think about the ramifications of that. He sounds a little like Heston today!

Hondo;Question, What good are political opinions if you keep them to yourself? Seriously, I'd just suggest you skip on to something else you like, give us anything you like to talk about .... It's a suggested subject forum of course but it's bad times and there are closely woven factions of opinonated people got to expect a little deviation. We too wish it would all go away but it occupies our minds and hearts.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 19:21:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the subject of Rem 700 VS in .308:
Doc was kind enough (thanks, Doc) to check his suppliers, who were all out of stock. Doc was also kind enough to contact Remington, and received this response - "The Model 700 VS in .308 caliber has not been produced since the very beginning of this year. It is currently scheduled for production again in the first quarter of 2001. Our production schedule is always subject to change. You should look for shipments to your distributors sometime around the first week of March."

On the subject of torque wrenches:
Not being able to aquire my new toy (see above), I don't yet have the necessity for a torque wrench that does inch-pounds. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't see a frequent use for such a wrench, once the scope is mounted and the trigger is adjusted. Being the engineer that I am, I might just be tempted to make my own torque wrench out of a cheap torx screwdriver with a hole drilled perpendicular through the handle, a twenty inch bar slid halfway through the newly drilled hole to make a T wrench, and a 6.5 pound weight hanging off one end. 6.5 pounds at ten inches is the same as 65 pounds at one inch. Clamp the rifle on it's side, and let gravity do the deed.

On the subject of flinching:
I hunt with a Ruger Super Redhawk in .44. I also handload two different rounds; one is very tame for target shooting, and one is a compressed powder monster for hunting with. The hunting loads make me flinch after a few shots. To get rid of the flinch, I bench shoot the target loads, squeezing the trigger so slowly that when the gun finally goes off, it's a complete surprise. When my flinch is gone, I go back to concentrating on breathing, grip, sight picture, etc... My $.02.

On the subject of the current political Bravo Sierra:
The founding dads, wise as they were, put in several levels of safeguards. So far, one of those has failed (the FL SC usurping the FL Legislature and the US Constitution), but there are several safeguards left. If and when those remaining safeguards fail, the time for rhetoric is over. Until that time, I plan on moderating the expressions of my feelings on the matter. But I will say this - I won't be hiding in any 'tall grass'.
MikeL <>
Beer Capitol, WI, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 20:12:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

John Price,

On the subject of reloading presses, I have a Dillon XL650. It's nice, and I'm happy with it. But, if I had to do it all over again, I'd pick a Dillon 550. You'll save enough over the 650 to buy a set or two of dies, and it slows you down by forcing you to think and index the shells by hand. Contrary to what you might think, you can reload too quickly. The 650 automates too much, to the point where I daydream and forget to keep the shell feed tube loaded with fresh brass.
MikeL <>
Beer Capitol, WI, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 20:23:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gentlemen: I hear that there is a Mr. George Gardner who makes a "Speed bolt" for the Remington M700. My understanding is that this bolt handle replicates the one as found on the Steyr SSG PII. Any idea as to how I can get in touch with Mr. Gardner?

Thank you for your attention.


Steve Buddo <>
Blainville, Qc, Canada - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 20:47:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

How about a handfull of rubberbands to hold on natural camo? I remember in SOI we were taught to use our boot bands to help hold on natural vegitation. I have to admit it worked better than I thought it would. Only problem is you only had two. As long as the rubber bands arent too tight, I don't see a problem.


TR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 20:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

I bought a Craftsman in/lbs torque wrench from Sears. I believe it was $70-$80. I have a hard time spending a little less than that for a wrench that is pre-set, like the Seekonk. Although I must say that the pre-set wrenches are more field worthy in terms of weight and size.

TR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 21:02:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt - Recoil pad:

Bolt - checkout what I did to a Rem 700 PSS awhile back. That Pacmayer recoil pad should easily giv ya that 1/2" extra length.
I did a write up on that work:


ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 21:11:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

MikeL: do I hear what I think I hear? No purpose for an inch pound torque wrench? How about installing those great Comp Cams roller rocker arms? Lots of great uses for it. That's why I like the beam type over the snap head too, you can hold X pounds on it and watch if it decreases over time (dirty threads, lubricants, or whatever until you KNOW it's seated). I'm kind of with you on the progressives, I chunk 100 casings in a accro bin, and when they get filled, I top up the primers and powder. Else wise, like you, I've let things run too far. But now it's just kind of the same rhythm of the press. On the checks and ballances, we've seen no less than four give way, which is why I'm ready to use a rope personally, and advocate the same.

Wild Bill: the collet kind of "floats" around in the die. Basically the die only sizes the body of the case (if you get the one like I have, others are neck only), and there's a chamber for the collet to ride around in at the top of the die (above the shoulder part) so that it can move side to side and up and down. You adjust the up and down with a setting. Truly a nifty set-up. So much so that at the next big gunshow, I'm gonna trade off several sets of RCBS dies for an exact duplicate of this set, but in 223. Besides, who loads 25-06 anymore?

Hondo: If I may: hunting isn't completely sniping either. Neither is CQB. However, it IS something close, so it has a home here due to it's similarity. It's just as hard, or harder, to separate politics from sniping as it is the others. Without politics, there would BE no sniping OR hunting. So, if I post something you don't like, please feel free to either do as I do when there's something on TV I don't like (I change channels or turn the damned thing off), or petition that individual personally. The least effective means of change is to write the TV station and ask for them to take the offensive stuff off the air.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
Got the rope, now where's the treasonous politician?, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 21:30:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Who makes the safest hand primer?

Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 21:32:04 (ZULU) (your host address:


Excellent feedback and I appreciate the input. I also left out a section on hides. Think I am going to have to make it into two 14 day courses to make it work.

And it will be all in the field. I usually give them a base camp where they can set up some hooches and work notional security into the scenario from a friendly company sized element in the defense. Leave the support guys there to guard it while we are away and that was what I meant by "Classroom."

That comment was music to my ears.

Live fire stalks are crucial. I submitted an article called FTX Summary which they posted here which covers how I do that.

Thank you again and welcome to the roster! I don't recall seeing you post here although I'm new myself.


Got all the emails and will send in the next couple days.


To all who posted/emailed me re: the training program. Should get it down pretty well in the next couple weeks. After that, on to the 3rd phase course and SEO course!

Thanks again, great site and good folks!

jefe <>
VT, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 21:32:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

If there is a way to get 1/2 MOA groups out of a mini 14. I don't know
about it. Clark custom only rates his guns at 1 MOA. Althought the design of the gun is basically a down sized M14 or M1A and these can be made to shoot a bit better than that. And with enough work you can make almost any rifle shoot good.
kerry <>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 21:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Okay, reading the roster has convinced me it is time to get a better scope mount/ring setup for my rifle (presently Leo QRW and quick release rings - works okay but always looking for more solid mounting). So Badger rings and bases for me. But which rings? Mounted to a Rem 700 in .308, which is the better rings for the M1 scope: the standard or the MAX50s? I'm leaning to wards the MAX50's due to the larger ring surface but is this overkill, particularly for my rifle and the M1?


Oh, and avoid ANY Century "Wizard" hack jobs. I have several tales of woe regarding that company's modifications. If you want to mod the MAS, look at what McCann Industries (, I believe) is doing. Nice but very pricey in my meager opinion.
Morris <>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 22:19:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

On $300 scopes. Read the reviews on this site about the Tasco SS10x42.
pete robertson <>
USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 22:20:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kerry / Luckydog: Give Tim a call at Accuracy Weapons Systems. Tell 'em that odd guy in South Utah sent you ;-) Seriously, he can build you a mini ranch that will hold groups in the dime to nickle size at 100 yards. Seen it. His preferred optics on the mini is IOR by the way.

Bolt: I dunno about the safest, but I got an RCBS and wound up taking it back. Didn't work for squat. Literally. The old LEE was what I used to use when I was running a single stage, and nothing has ever happened bad to me with it. I've looked hard at the Hornady, but haven't tried it yet.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <>
still can't get that knot right, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 22:26:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: do I hear what I think I hear? No purpose for an inch pound torque wrench?

Not 'no' purpose, just not enough purpose to drop the moo-la when there are so many other toys begging for my cash. Buy an inch-pound torque wrench, or a new set of Redding dies? Hmm. Besides, what can be more accurate and more repeatable than using real inches and real pounds?

I once had me a Sears dial-adjust torque wrench (ft-lbs) that got plenty of use re-torquing head bolts on my '68 Dodge SuperBee. Low-octane gas necessitated carbon removal from the heads and valves every six months to cut down on pre-detonation. No roller-rockers, nor roller lifters though. I no longer own the beast, and the torque wrench (actually, my whole tool box) was a victim of a smash-n-grab a few years back.

Bravo: Else wise, like you, I've let things run too far. But now it's just kind of the same rhythm of the press.

Insert bullet, crunch. Insert bullet, crunch. Zzzzz. Oops! I done ran myself out of empty brass, AGAIN! An extra step or two might be enough to keep me attentive enough that such things might not happen. I haven't made a squib load - yet. I always seem to run out of empty brass long before the powder measure needs another refill.

Bravo: On the checks and ballances, we've seen no less than four give way...

By your account, the other three being? There is still the FL Legislature, the US SC, and the US Congress to stop this farce.

Bravo: which is why I'm ready to use a rope personally, and advocate the same.

Words have a way of inflaming the listeners emotions (liberals don't think, they feel), as well as giving the opposition tactical info. If it comes to where I have to storm the baracades, I'm not going to tell a soul - I'll just go do it, benefitting from the element of surprise, and put my fate in God's hands. Besides, sedition qualifies for serious jail time. Saying too much now might put you in the un-enviable position of watching a (God forbid!) revolution through the bars of a jail house window.
MikeL <>
Beer Capitol, WI, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 22:36:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

torque wrenches

Snap-on electronic 1/4 inch drive model $1,047, Snap-on clicker type $194, Sears Craftsman clicker type 0-250 in-lb model $51, Sears 3/8 drive beam type 0-75 ft-lbs division only every 2.5 ft-lbs $20. I disassembled my ½ inch clicker model and found an errant metal chip that disabled it. It seems to be fine now. The design is simple so maybe its not so bad. Warrantee is only ninety days on Sears models so maybe its not so good either. Brownells T handle models $74 for each of several preset in-lb models. Brownell's 3/8 drive clicker type $150. I promise to post no more on the subject.
John Stranahan <>
Houston, TX, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 23:12:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Not questioning CDC's marksmanship, just pointing out the reality of bullet performance at long ranges. CDC is basically going to be shooting deer, and that's fine, and I'm comfortable with that. More importantly, HE's comfortable with that. But even with a 300Mag, you're running out of enough juice at 600+yards to get the bullet working properly on the terminal end of things. According to my trusty Sierra 4th ed, using a 180gn SBT (as good a choice as you're gonna get IMO) with a BC very similar to the 175MK, and assuming a MV of 2700fps(which is really pushing the 308 in a hunting size gun) you have 1744fps left at 600 yds, in theory. Now this is probably(assuming very good shot placement) enough to get it done on a deer, especially those little dog things they call deer down south. But bullet performance is going to be fairly poor, considering that the Sierra guys want to make sure the bullet doesn't fail too horribly at 3200fps from some yokal and his 25yd 30-378Wby shot. Even when you step up to the 300 Win Mag it doesn't get much better, then impact velocity is up to 1975fps(theory again), which I consider good enough for deer(impact velocity for the 30-30 using 170gn FN@2200MV is 1750fps at 150yds which is about max for the 30-30IMO, completely different bullet though). I guess it's a matter of what you are comfortable with. I've tracked someone else's gut shot deer(12 ga slug) for the better part of 4 hours at night through brambles at Lejeune on the road from the ASP to Courthouse Bay. The deer didn't deserve that(you could probably say the hunter and I did). I'm fairly cautious of my shots at game. I think CDC is also. But it seems far too many people out there aren't, and they read this too. And like the guys who use MK's on game(another pet peeve of mine), I think that it deserves to be mentioned. As for sniper related info, I talked a little about terminal ballistics, if that's not good enough, e-mail me, I'll talk your ear off. Semper Fi...
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 23:24:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
Good info on the mini 14. That is the only one i've heard of that can give sub MOA in that rifle other than a total fluke off the shelf that just happens to shoot great. I plan on getting one this time next year (already burned my xmass presents this year)
Thanks I'll give him a call., Kerry
Kerry <>
CA, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 00:06:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
What about winter conditions for sniping what gear? what you wear? tips on consealment? movement in snow? special gun preparing for the cold?

thanks Jason
Jason <>
Canada - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 00:27:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Florida Sec of State, Kathrine Harris, has refused the Palm beach hand count, and has given 25 electoral votes to G.W. bush!! :))))))))))

Of course, since she's not FAT... we know it ain't over.

Over heard at Al Bore's head quarters... "But I don't WANNA' go back to Tennesee with all those hicks. I wanna stay in D.C. with all the cool media types, and there's no legal overseeing authority to make me go back... I WANT IT N-O-W!!!... I gonna sue E-V-E-R-Y-B-O-D-Y".

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 00:39:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey have you all heard anything about the new winchester short magnum?
(.300 WSM)I seen the write up Shooting times did on it and was extremely impressed with the effeciency of this cartridge it looked to be about 1/16th taller than a 7.62x51 but the ballistical data said it was actually 10 fps faster than the .300 win mag using a 180 hornady ballistic tip in both cases the .300 win mag had 81 grains of spherical powder while the .300 WSM had 65 grains of spherical powder!
they said the case looked to be formed from the .404 jeffrey case like the .300 rem ultra mag but upon closer inspection found the walls of the boiler room to be a little thinner than a ultramag case.


out the barrel, off the rocks, through the bushes, nuthin but varmint splatter!

Jason <>
Sharpsville, In, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 01:05:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


Great, now that I've got your attention, I asked a question last night regarding the price of Reimingon 700 PSS's in the US. I don't see any response here at all, so I'll ask once again.

I'm contemplating the opportunity becomming a Remington Law Enforcement Distributor here in Canada. I'm looking at the possibility of exporting some of those rifles back into the US for sale to the public, and not just law enforcement personnel.

What is the going price for these rifles in the USA? We don't get Shotgun News up here, so it's not like I'd be able to find this out with realative ease.

Any help would be appreciated.

By the way, I'm just joking about Bush. Our country goes to the polls tomorrow, to elect a new Prime Minister. I hope we vote our Liberal gov't out once and for all. Our Canadian Alliance Party (conservative- right wing) is behind in the polls going into the day of election.

Wish us luck!

Jeff Babineau <>
Canada - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 01:15:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken: You know, sometimes I toss a bomb to get people excited and nary is heard a word. Witness my recent post to Leatherneck about the sporter .280. Other times I say something innocent in passing and get an earfull. You are dead-on on placement and terminal ballistics. And I've been on enough nightmare tracking jobs that I NEVER want another one. If I'm contributing to the deliquency of inept riflemen, I'll cease and desist.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 01:21:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey in reading the postings i came across many baout recoil pads
personally i use a hammered steel pad on my 12.5 lb 22-250 96' mauser
(best group just under .4375 @ 100 yrds , 52 gr hornady bthp match w/40 gr of h-380 smoking it @ 3850 fps!) anyway its my understanding most sniper rifles are in the 7.5 to 10 lbs range anyway and a .308 win doesnt kick all that bad anyway, but i can see it on .300 mag and up but my question is this why dont you make or purchase a muzzel brake if you can cut and weld sheet steel and have a little knowledge using a lathe you can make one within the better part of 6 hours or less i recommend a style like is on the front of a Barrett .50 or be creative! another alternative is a mercury recoil buffer you can get those out of brownells and varius places on the internet well just my .02 worth


out the barrel, off the rocks, through the bushes, nuthin but varmint splatter!

Jason <>
Sharpsville, In, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 01:38:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jason - recoil pads:

Jason - Im here to tell ya - (Pablito and Tony Y.) will attest - a .308 can beat the living s**t out of ya - after a steady diet of field fire. I had a Rem 700 PSS (puny sniper rifle) that didn't weigh more than 12 LBS soaking wet. This dude turned my shoulder all kinds of neat colors. I was shooting Black Hills 175 grn match ammo.

Then again - Pablito tells me all the time that I'm wimpy..

Good Luck,

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 02:21:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


I never said you were Whimpy.
I said that you were... Uh, well, Uh sorta "Scrawny!!"

Joe Liebermen is whining his ass off on TV.
You know, before he got involved with the clinton/gore bunch, he used to be a straight guy... now he's up to his ass in lying.

Man, he learned fast!!


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 02:41:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Inept rifleman are their own fault. I just don't want to give them any excuses. You know, "Well Carlos Hathcock made 1200yds shots on people, so I should be able to get hits on deer at 600yds" and that kind of non-sense. I reviewed your comments on the 280 Rem, and can't disagree with it too much, other than I don't care for the Remington. But hey, to each their own. Semper Fi...
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 02:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
First off, congratulations on the election guys, not that this means much from a Canadian. I know the results will be contested but I'm optimistic. What can I say; I think your President has more influence on Canada than our own Prime Minister. What a relief Bush held on :).

I would also like to thank everyone who posted regarding my flinch problem. I really appreciate it guys. This experience hasn't been all bad; I get to justify spending more time at the range and maybe even get some new toys :).

Thanks again guys

Ryan Lloyd <>
Penticton, British Columbia, Canada - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 02:45:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito - Liberman...

This photo oughta just about size up the post certification actions of the democratic party:


Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Old, Dominion, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 02:58:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank you for posting that address. I'm going to post the picture on the bulletin board at the range. We have much Gore bashing going on.
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 03:23:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
On the flinch cure, what helped me is to have my shooting partner load my rifle single shot style and hand it to me for paper practice.
The catch is sometimes there is a live round in the tube and sometimes it is a snap cap. You never know until you touch it off.
For some reason this prevents the flinch after only a few dozen reps.

Going to max out the credit card on a new stick...again!

Bravo, do you brew anything like St. Paulie Girl Dark?

iiiiwanabe <>
siloam springs, ar, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 03:34:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Question: What is the height of the M-24 SWS front metallic sight base? Also what are the dimensions or part number of the rear metallic sight base? I know these are Redfield pieces and may be hard to come by but I met a gentleman at a show today and he had a gold mine of parts but was unfamiliar with the M-24. I purchased the correct Palma rear and International Big Bore front sights and can't wait to get them mounted. One more, could anyone suggest a source for an M-24 spec barrel? Thanks in advance.
Rick <>
Des Moines, IA, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 03:47:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
On the value of torque wrenches: Torque wrenches give you repeatability and consistency. Take the scope off, reinstall, retorque and point of aim/point of impact is very very close. Example. Had a Hart-barreled straight taper ten twist 26 inch tube on 700 action. The thing would put Ken's .308 towed to shame…. could barely lift the friggin thing, let alone take it out for a night on the town. Stripped action of scope, mounts, etc, unscrewed the barrel and shipped it off to smith, where it was cut to 22 inches and sent back. Screwed it back on action, retorqued mount and scope (Leupold Mark 4s), reinstalled in stock and retorqued action bolts. First round out impacted 1/8th inch right of center. Couldn't have done it without torque wrench and recording of original torque values in data book. Repeatability gives you confidence. If you are not absolutely sure that you can center punch the target every single time you pick up your weapon, you need to keep working. If you keep dicking around with 50% solutions instead of doing what you need to do, you will never have that confidence. The answers are here in the archives. Spend the bucks and be happy. Craftsman "microtorque" works for me.

PSS quick fixes: The PSS' and VS' suffer from a few easily corrected problems. The most serious problem is barrel slap on the forend upon firing. Disassemble the rifle and remove from stock. Inspect the inside of the barrel channel at the front of the stock. You will note a slick burnished area. That is the portion of the stock that is striking the barrel when the rifle is fired. Using coarse sandpaper, a rasp of similar tool, take about 10 thou off the bottom of the barrel channel in the area of the slap. Test fire. Repeat as necessary.

While disassembled, closely inspect the aluminum bedding block for any imperfections that may prevent the receiver from bottoming out on the block. HS Precision does a superb job on their stocks but mass produced products will not "one size fits all". Remove any paint, epoxy oooze, aluminum burrs etc from the block area. Do not worry, you are not going to hurt it by cleaning it up. Closely inspect the recoil lug area, making sure that the lug will seat at 90 degrees and that the recess is deep enough for the lug to bottom out. If the recess is too shallow, cut an eight of an inch out of the bottom with a mill or Dremel. On about half the rifles inspected, I have noticed that the guard bolts are impacting the inside of the bedding block holes. (Part of this is due to inadequate torquing. Spin em up to 65 in-lbs.) If this is happening to your rifle, you will see the concentric ring marks of the bolt thread pattern on the inside on the guard bolt holes, not to be confused with machining marks. They are very distinct and appear almost as knurling. Drill the guard holes out a few thousandths or 1/16 inch if easier. Some go one step further when the above is completed and bed the action to the bedding block using MarineTex, Steel Bed, Devcon etc. Had a new PSS that was crap. Friend's older 24" PSS would shoot bung holes. Mine was lucky to shoot inch groups. Chandler fussed it up a little and recrowned it. Shot in the 0.75 after that. I fixed the barrel slap. It then shot in .5's. Fixed bedding block. Rifle then shot in the high .2's consistently. Try it… very simple. Be safe.

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 04:30:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm a Copper building up a pseudo-scout rifle off a Remington 600 .308. I've read that they may be prone to firing when the safety is released. I figure this probably arose from some dickheads releasing safety with fingers on the trigger! Has anyone out there encountered this problem with Rem 600's or 700's?
Pigpen <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 04:52:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
iiiiwanabe: haven't tried to copy that one specifically, but I've got a mid-dark (not as dark as Fosters) that I brew for myself. In my opinion, it's quite good, but then again, it's taylored to my taste ;-) Should have another 10 gallons of it in roughly a month, good Czeck Saaz hops.

CDC: I guess the reason I didn't give a second thought to the 280 is because that's my uncle's working round. It'll take deer and elk every day, any day. Heck, I love the thing, just a 7mm 30-06, which is what I loved the bestest. Personally, I can't see why it wouldn't work.

Mike: You have my sincerest condolences on the smash and grab. That's nasty. Not near as nasty as losing a SuperBee. I know about the nasty low-octane gas, I've got a FE block that I'm still running ;-) Me? Sedition? "the causing of discontent, insurrection, or resistance against a government"? HA! You might want to check out Patriots USA, just click on my name. By that definition, ALL of the founding fathers were seditious to their own government.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly the glorious, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 04:56:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pigpen: Check out Pablito's words of wisdom on Remington triggers in the Hot Tips section of this site.

All: In case you missed it, THAT was the fat lady. The Federal Supreme Court is going to formalize it by driving a stake through Gorewinkle's heart. From here on out it is just his political death throes. Watch the Democrats flee the sinking ship. It warms the heart.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 05:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt; Lee Autoprimer let's you feel what you're doing and it's hard to overkill and set one off. Besides it's faster than anything else

Clearwater Bill; excellent information. I never thought of that even as a possibilty. I've had vertical stringing on a couple of PSS's that I never cured until I sawed off the barrels . I'd bet that had something to do with it. Probably reduced the whip. Duhh! Thanks man.

Mikel; That is certainly a good flinch detector and it makes a flincher who is in denial come clean. Good idea.

Mini 14; Glad you asked, I love em...The barrel is the culprit as a rule. The scope mounts are more often than not trouble.I saw a 1/2 moa that someone in Pueblo Colorado had done up with a thumb hole and mounted weaver bases correctly...but it had wheels on it. That action was just attached to a big 26" (Douglas or Hart I think)piece of plumbing but the sucker would shoot. I tested a used Mini 14 Stainless Ranch Rifle today that I just bought from a local here. 2 MOA would crowd it but they are dependable as hell. I had a plastic stock Ranch Rifle I traded off that shot close to 1.5 MOA out of box. Accuracy were not an issue I would take one over a Mattel Toy AR any day. Accuracy were an issue I'd take it anyway in a fight. Today I split an old reload case right in half. The AR's I had, you would have to dig it out. The Mini just laid it out on the table and kept going. Someone said they carry easier than a M-16. I think they remind me more of a real gun. The more coyotes I shoot with .223 the more I know it is a mouse gun. I wounded 2 dogs last week that a .308 would have dug a hole for. One came up behind and was behind a yucca when I exploded a Vmax on the weed and scared him to wide open. Shot him in butt running at 230 yards... last time I saw him he was 800 yards away draggin his rear axle. The other was a sure thing straight on shot. He went upside down with tail waggin. I was pickin up the range finder when he left for Amarillo. I hate to wound anything like that. Shot 2 tonight with a .308. My Lab spotter saw one and went for a fight and came back and said "Hey boss, I can't wake this guy up to talk to him He's got no pulse." I'm retiring to the .308 for control work. Sorry bout the story but nobody else will listen.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 05:10:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Evey wonder what happens to things that you may shoot at?
check out this site.Just cut and paste it to your address bar.

Scott Hannah <hannahscott>
San Jose, ca, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 05:40:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

I had to laugh at the flinching thing, as I have a couple of rifles that bring out the worst in me. One a 338 win that ceases to be fun between 30-40 rounds, the other a 45-70 saddle carbine loaded quite stout I think this saddle gun is part pirrinah everytime I shoot this gun it draws blood(mine)under recoil(heavy), but I must admit this gun is a lot of fun when it's done with me I'm beat up,and bleeding(usually just banged up knuckles)but always laughing It's most comforting to carry in the bush also.Anyway I say to myself ("Self guns that do what these guns do kick. If the shots bad you get kicked, if the shots good you get kicked, your going to get kicked so you just as well get something out of it.")
I don't know if I shoot very good, but I sure get kicked a lot.
Good Evening Rabon
Rabon <>
Alaska, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 05:46:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ryan - Flinching

Give this a try. Gather up some dummy rounds or snap caps for the firearm you are working with. Start by simply doing dry firing, have someone else watch to see if you are flinching. You can also try the balance a coin on the front sight while dry firing (the idea is to be smooth enought to not drop the coin).

Once you are O.K. while dry firing (no flinching) you can move on to the range. Take your dummy rounds or snap caps and one live round, mix them up and load the magazine with your eyes closed, behind your back, or have someone else load the magazine (it is usually better if the first round out is not the live round). If you load a revolver simply put one live round in the cylinder and fill the rest with dummy rounds, close your eyes, spin the cylinder and close it.

What you want to do is chamber the first round, come up on target, obtain a good sight picture, squeeze the trigger and let the hammer fall. Manually chamber the next round and repeat. Again it is helpful to have someone watching your reaction when the hammer falls. When the live round is chambered and fired there should not be any flinch observed. Also, don't stop the drill when you fire the live round but continue on with the rest of the magazine until it is empty.

If your sight picture was good and you did not flinch the round should impact in the desired area of the target. Run through a few magazines with only one live round each time until you are comfortable that you were not flinching when the live round goes off. Only then make it two live rounds and the rest dummy rounds or snap caps and repeat the drill. If you were flinching with the dummy rounds and live round go back to dry firing only till the flinch is gone before going back to the firing line. As you begin to progress add another live round to the magazine of dummy rounds until you have a full magazine of live rounds and there is no signs of flinching.

This is a good drill for anyone experiencing problems with flinching. I hope it is obvious that you will want to stay with a caliber you are comfortable with (.38 or 9mm stay away from the heavy hitters), if necessary work with a .22 cal. pistol to minimize recoil and noise. I have not found a drill that works for noise induced flinching (usually caused when someone near you fires a round causing you to flinch) but can only suggest using ear plugs and ear muffs to minimize this affect.


Byron <>
CA, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 06:29:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Recoil

An elderly fella from West Bygawd once said between spits of tabacco juice;

" Hell boy, shootin' a gun what don't kick is like makin' love with your clothes on."
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 10:02:46 (ZULU) (your host address:


For one, get a decent pair of sunglasses with UV protection. You will go snowblind far more quickly using optics in a winter environment and they are a must.

A foam pad is another must. No matter how hard you are, you can not lay down in the snow without freezing in a short period of time. One big problem with winter operations is that lots of folks don't plan enough for simple sustainability and refuse to accept that you have to lose some of your "mission time."

Counter-tracking steps and a booby trap or other rear security should be placed behind you so you don't get tracked right to your hide.

Certain types of oil thicken up and cause problems in cold weather. With a bolt gun, its not a bad idea to not even use it (I know people are going to revolt on that, but it works and I know, cause I've done it lots of times)

If you are going to be out in the field for a while, don't bring the weapon inside a tent or heated area. It makes them sweat and will cause you problems. A bolt gun generally operates fine, but an M16 will almost immediately cease to function properly.

Other considerations are that the snow muffles the sound of your shots, making you harder to locate.

People move slower in the snow and are easier moving targets. Since the leaves are down, you have good fields of fire.

Batteries for night vision devices etc. should be kept next to your body as with WATER. It won't freeze this way, or drain your core temperature when you drink it. A little salt in it stops it from freezing. You will need extra calories (thats why I'm fat now...)

Snowshoes make decent firing platforms, but, you have to take them off and that is something to consider.

Hope that helps.

Jefe <>
VT, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 12:57:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Poem

Please forgive my use of the bandwidth. I just got this in and wanted to share it.























Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 12:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

In flinching,

I have to agree with Byron. When I was doing my S-3 bit on Wilcox Range, I used the "ball and dummy" drill on problem shooters.
It is funny to hear shooters say, "I'm not flinching", and then with the dummy round, watch them nearly drop the gun anticipating the whimpy 9mm bang. Thats funny, right?

Go GW!!

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 13:55:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have seen a 6x18x65mm rifle scope that has 6 different cams for different calibers, some other nice features, and was wondering if anybody knows the bad points about it. It is made by ATN, I understand that the Shephard scope has certain "problems", and "adjustable" scopes in general as opposed to "fixed", but I am wondering about if this one would be good enough for a hunter. I trust "experts" opinionsI found it for $309. and it lists for $499. ( I am not advertising here, just providing answers to questions someone will want ask me. Thanks in advance.
Wayne <>
Wilmington, DE, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 14:13:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have a Ruger MKI .22 target pistol and would like to find out if there is anyone making low profile nite sites,rubber grips and other tactical replacment parts for it as well as the MKII. I know these pistols are popular with Special Operations in suppressed configurations so I figure there might be someone out there making these types of upgraded parts and accessories.
I'm also interested in a good holster for them.
Has anyone been using the new Aguilla 60gr.subsonic ammunition in these pistols?
I would like to hear your opinions about it as well as opinions from those of you who use the MKI and MKII.
My plan is to get my pistol upgraded and tuned as best I can depending on parts availability, and sending it out to have a quality tactical finish applied. As soon as I can I'm going to start researching thread on suppressors. I have looked at the Gemtech Outback and am impressed so far. Any suggestions there would also be appreciated.

Don <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 15:04:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the link... that's Lieberman, alright.

The base is .375" and is marked as such. Many 'smiths have these lying around in a box. If it's not marked ".375" it's not an original Redfield.

That "rumor" came from a famous law suit against Remington, where two "dickheads" were jackin' deer in Texas, and racing ("bouncing") down a dirt road in a pick up truck, and the passinger was holding a loaded (as in "chambered") M700, with his hand around the grip, and his finger "you know where"...

(No, not in his nose... on the trigger, you dummy!)

They saw the deer, and were slowing down, when the passinger got ready and "flipped" the safety, and the driver went out the door... the hard way.

In court, the passinger claimed he was just trying to unload the gun because it "was against the law to have a loaded gun in the truck during hunting season", but couldn't do it safely because the old Rem trigger locked the bolt closed when "ON", and to open the bolt, you had to go to "fire". The Winchester, has three positions... safe with the bolt locked, safe with the bolt unlocked, and fire... the old Rem had two...

So the family of the driver got $15,000,000, and Rem changed the desige of the safety (they cut the "bolt lock ear" off the safety lever).

There is nothing wrong with the old, or new Remington triggers... (just don't jack deer in a bouncing pick up truck with the old ones ;))

I use the Premier snap torque wrench, made by Seekonk, (they ARE calibrated at 65 in/pnds)...
I have two tactical rifles that have two scopes, a M3, and a B&L 10x Tac... and the new 50 BMG will have two scopes also... they swap back and forth with NO LOSS OF ZERO... it works well, if you use a one piece base, and lap the rings, so there is no strain on any part of it.


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 15:18:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

I enjoyed your comments on your relationship with your son. I have the exact same kind with mine. We started off the same way, I never pushed him into shootng or anything else I enjoyed, he came to it naturally. I tought him everything I could and he soaked it up like a sponge. He now shoots with the Nebraska Guard Team and does quit well. Some of our best memories are of our times shooting togeather or building race cars. We have shot togeather and against one another in the last few years and there is nothing we enjoy more. I am to the point now where I no longer hear the foot steps I can feel them on my back.(HA) I know exactly what you mean about pride when your son does so well and even outshoots you. The proudest moment of my life though was when he asked me to be his best man when he got married a couple of years ago. I said I would be honored but shouldn't that be your best friend and he said, "You are my best friend Dad" enough said.

I have to agree with NOT making those long shots. Its not that many of us couldn't do it, its just to uncertain. I agree also with the poor bullet performance at the extended ranges. I have put up cardboard cut outs and shot at them at LONG ranges and I have made many a hit on them but I have also made some unexplained "Bad" hits on them, like and ass shot or a low gut shot because of something I couldn't see or just because!! Stalk closer, make a clean kill and shoot cardboard at long range and then you will know you can or can't make the shot and nothing suffers. Just my thoughts on it!!
Pat <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 15:20:42 (ZULU) (your host address:


You might try one of Pachmayr's Pre-Fit Decelerator pads. I don't know how thick your Sendero pad is so they may or may not give you that extra 1/2". They are 1" pads. You can add a spacer if necessary. I have a KICK-EEZ pad on my "fun" shotgun and it works like a champ. They come in .8",1.0", and 1.2". Whenever I have to sight in a whole bunch of rifles, I strap on a PAST recoil shield. They are really great for summer work. I agree with Bill Rogers on the Lee Autoprime.

Bill Rogers,

You're lucky that you have a good "working" spotter. My Malamute would be too busy worrying about his next meal to even notice a 'yote!

What kind of primers are you guys using to light your Varget?
Doc <>
The frosty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 15:20:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wow, my eyes hurt from catching up from this long weekend.

KIA vs "hit" - This is my opinion...

A thorax hit in jungle, without medivac or a hospital within "dragging distance" is a KIA. Most people that survive rifle wounds do so through the skill of the surgeon. Even a great medic cannot save you for long if lungshot without access to a surgical suite.

George Gardner - For the guys asking how to contact is his email address .He has built two rifles for me and here is a summary of my opinion to date..

Integrity: 100%
Honesty: 100%
Communication: 100%
Value: 110%
Accuracy - I have only confirmed accuracy with one of the two rifles. I can only say that it shoots better than me...
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 15:55:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, Yo to all, been out of pocket for a few days.

Some really good posts.

Gooch, Moe, on the US code for militia, (Bravo quote me verbatim pls.)
There was NO age restriction, this was inserted later.
So, even if you are past 45, you are still considered "Militia", no matter what, as long as you are "Able bodied".( Can you field a piece?, and are you physically able?).If so you are a GO.

On a more grim prospect, the Calorically challenged lady has yet to sing on the election.
As some or all of you may be aware, some 15,000 ballots (absentee), 10k +, for Bush, and 5k + for Bore were/ are being challenged in Fla.

Seems some Pub's added abs voter registration numbers to the outside of the ballots, while not altering the vote, this is clearly illegal under Fla election laws. This issue is being pursued and a suit has been filed. It could very well cost Dubyah the election, if they are disallowed.

Will this ever end?........

Two Shoes

Terry <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 17:09:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

John Stranahan: Nice thread on torque wrenches. I plan on buying based on the recommendations that have come through. However, if you buy an import from Harbor Freight, be careful. 'buy cheap, buy twice'

Ryan with +p+: I think if you kick the s**t out of the a**h**e that loaded the +p+ ammo, it might provide the psychological resolution needed to eliminate the flinch. :)

CDC: Again, thanks for the links, make for good reading, even though it raises my blood pressure. I also read/re-read the Federalist papers, particularly when George Will quotes them. This week it's #47.

Duman <>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 17:38:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Doc'; Your mute could probably negate your having to have a gun. I've had several otes go for her. So far none have made it. One took a .243 dead center.. got up and went after her again till he ran into another 100 grainer. I wish you guys could see it.. I'll get the camera guys out there and film it some day. She has eyes like an eagle and can see better than me after dark. You'd have to see it to believe it. Like having radar along. We always watch down wind and if anything comes from up wind she smells em long before we need to shoot. But it's surprising how many humorous situations we get into hunting the dogs.
Pat; It helps me to know there are a few kids left like yours and Kevins, I had about given up. Mine changed but it was years before he figured it out. He has 3 boys now and he's trainin em in the ways!

I'm glad to know there are some left in the world that know what the Militia is all about. These network spinners have almost turned it into a derogatory term. Someone a few years back, "a hunter", asked me why I hang around with a bunch of "snipers". The best answer I could think of was that they make me feel like I'm with my own kind. He shivered and walked off muttering something.

Was at the range yesterday witnessed a deer hunter of many years missing a full sized cardboard deer 3 out of 4 shots at 200 yards. He was shooting from the bench on sand bags. He said he could hit a deer... just wasn't good on targets. Oh yeah, it was the guy who couldn't figure out why I hang out with Snipers.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 17:41:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just figured out what to give my dad, brother, brother-in-law for Xmas: memberships to the NRA. Great way to increase membership...

Duman <>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 17:51:45 (ZULU) (your host address:


Anybody, know, have, or are willing to share there sniper data pages with me. I've got Lau's book as well as Plasters but I'd like something that is already up on the computer so I can manipulate them myself. Microsoft Word is best for me.
Shawn <>
Page, AZ, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 18:08:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Brother (and patriot) Two Shoes, ask and ye shall receive. Hondo, you may wish to skip this post ;-)
"The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense .... And ... these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." Supreme Court of the United States, U.S. v. Miller (1939).
"`The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion is that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right." NUNN v. STATE, 1 Ga. (1 Kel.) 243, at 251 (1846)

And just so that everyone knows what we're talking about, one for me:

"If the text and purpose of the Constitutional guarantee relied exclusively on the preference for a militia `for defense of the State,' then the terms `arms' most likely would include only the modern day equivalents of the weapons used by the Colonial Militia Men." STATE v. KESSLER, 289 Or. 359, 369, 614 p. 2d 94,99 (Oregon Supreme Court, 1980.)
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
my forefathers son, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 18:47:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Havi I missed something? Is there a war on right now? Who the hell are all you people sniping? Who are you sneaking up on with these ghillie suits? Cardboard cutouts of people maybe? What a bunch of wannabe idiots! Some of you fools probably don't even own a rifle.
Bill <>
La Luz, NM, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 19:23:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Be gentle on our poor misguided Bill ( here. Forgive him, he knows not what he talks about. If he could read, and read through the site, he would not have made such remarks that are so obviously in bad taste - absolutely against the character of our site.

Bless them who are poor of mind...

Marius Ferreira <>
RSA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 20:37:28 (ZULU) (your host address:


You are way TOO kind, and way TOO generous!


Pablito <>
Lookin' to sneek up on those cardboard "enemies", in my K-Mart's ghillie suit, in the misguided, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 20:44:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

I think it was Lazarus Long(?) that said 'Stupidity is it's own punishment'.
Duman <>
Stunned in, Colorado, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 21:09:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
You must be a first time visitor to our sight. You probably never read back far enough to see what we were talking about. So I will be more polite than your were. This is a sight composed of Military and Police snipers and Tactical shooters and long range shooters and hunters from around the world. We come here to discuss those topics (Mostly) and the cardboard cut outs were in reference to DEER or ELK not humans. One of our clan was talking about a long range shot on a ANIMAL and it was being discussed that it may be better to shoot him closer for humane reasons rather than risk a long shot and cripple it. Yes we do talk about shooting at people once in awhile because that is what Snipers do both Military and Police but it is to PROTECT others not prey on society. I hope this clears things up for you.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 21:33:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
OOPS!! I'm sorry I thought this was Sniper Country but my damned
computer keeps bringing up MILITIA COUNTRY???
While I'm here in Militia Country May I add a quote also..........
"words are cheap-actions are expensive" Hondo 27/11/00
Well I guess I'll be going trying to find Sniper Country can anyone
help me out?????? Thanks in advance Hondo
Hondo <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 22:13:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hehehehehehe, an instigator in the crowd! Obviously a SC virgin.

william@netmdc(Bill); ve know you have a family in Berlin and ve know how to make you talk (Kernal Klink). Actually we are just a bunch of funny guys that think those nasty old rifles are just cute phallic symbols. Would it excite you if we told you that we don't wear underwear under our ghillie suits?

Geeeezzzz, some folks' youngins!

Ahhheeeemmmm, Attention on deck! Real live shooting questions!

Re-ask of a previous question: I there a standard caliber Rem 700 that I can have re-chambered for a 6.5x284?

Is using a fired case for dry firing acceptable? If not, I will just shoot myself right now. Had argument with a bud today at work about it and I HATE to loose an argument with this guy.

Is there anyone in Piedmont NC that would be interested in helping me with learning how to reload? Pictures and books suck!

Is there any way to practice what to do to clear a jamb? Since I have never had one, I figure my time is coming!

Could someone please explain how the "Chandler Wobble" effects spin drift?

Bolt <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 23:14:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rosterfarians: Sir Wes, being the great friend that he is, has let me in on a great source of SMK's. I've got a thou of them on their way as we speak. With $160 to spend, he left me enough after the shipping to purchase a pack of bubblegum LOL. As he said, O.K. Weber really is!

Hondo: get a grip my friend. Where do most snipers have their loyalty? Along with the hi-power shooters and hunters that love this site as we do, they're MILITIA. It's our heiratage as marksmen. I don't care for hunting that much anymore, but I don't degrade those who post about it.

Bill: I can see that an intellectualist as yourself is far removed from anything we could possibly offer here. I won't waste my time on you, but if you want to learn what shooting is really about, there's lots to learn from the folks here. Leave your attitude at the door.

Patron 'Lito: you're absolutely right. Marius is far too kind.
Bravo - Patriots USA <>
the banana republic, formerly the great, USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 23:16:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Picture from Halloween Party! I'm the one with ghillie and the shining neck line LOLLOL!

Click on the name space. I HOPE this works! <>
USA - Monday, November 27, 2000 at 23:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

WOW!!!!! Her; not you!
Doc <>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 00:15:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bolt: I was looking through my reloading manuals on case dimensions, and the only case that I could come up with that would be slightly undersize in all dimensions is 6.5 X 55 Swedish. To my knowledge, Remington doesn't chamber a rifle in 6.5 X 55 Swedish. Maybe I missed something, though. Doesn't look good as far as rechambering an existing barrel.

Byron B: Thanks for the e-mail address for G A Precision.

I found the ballistics on a 6mm/284, and the ballistics are pretty impressive. What kind of ballistics are we talking about with the 6.5/284? Does someone here actually have a rifle chambered for it? Just interested.

Minuteman <>
Hartville, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 00:26:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dang Doc, no compliments on the ghillie? I'm hurt!

That's Meatwoman beside me, my lovely girlfriend of 11 years. What you don't readily notice are all the candles sitting on the tables threatening to turn me into a flaming ghillie monster.
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 00:28:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damn boltster...
Who's that foxie birdie, next to that ugly house plant... she should either water that thing, or throw it out!!

A 6.5x284 is best made on a long action (ask Mr. HA!), and all the factory 6.5's are on a short action. There ain't no cheap way to get to heaven (gun wise, that is!).


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 00:36:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don@liberty ref Aguilla;
I have used this ammo in 77/22,10/22 and Browning Buckmark Varmint and it cycles well in all three.However the short brass/long boolet thing will foul the chamber with lead preventing you from shooting normal LR until you have cleaned the chamber kinda like shooting shorts does.On the upside the SSS is fairly quiet and hits hard.This is NOT target ammo if one hole groups is the desired outcome.I like it best in the bolt gun.This and all other Aguilla ammo I've shot dumps a LOT of unburned powder in the action on autos.The Super Maximum is VERY hot @1750 fps or so advertised,blows the bolt open on the 10/22 and unloads half the powder in the action....dammit boy.
BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 01:00:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bolt -

Ghille? You mean that's NOT your..... Oh. Never mind.

Messers Bill & Hondo (term loosely used) -

A guest shouldn't come into their host's home and piss on their host's shoes, elsewise they will find their host's foot turned sideways and shoved up said guest's ass.

I find no compulsion to be as kind and generous as our great webmaster Marius has been to you two Darwin Award finalists.

Moe Mensale <>
still waiting in palm beach counting, FL, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 01:01:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill from NM; what on earth would make a nice guy like you wade into a nest of Snipers and pop off like an idiot? That's the trouble with Snipers, you can't see em for the tall grass. You've got no idea where you are. Take a "left" at and come back see us when you've mellowed out a little. If we are what you think we are... why in hell would you waste your time? Go back to the home page and check the under 18 button. It will take you back to mommy!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 01:09:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hondo; The word Militia seems to excite you too much. Would you like to tell us about it. The impressions I get from your posts would make me curious. Been watching too much CNN? Tell Dr. Bill about it man.. this is a polite place in society here. You remind of me a troubled man I once saw come into a Scott City Kansas bar and yell, I can lick any son of a bitch in here! He just underestimated the number of sons of bitches that were in there that night that felt the same way about it. You see he had something in common with everyone there! You just have to look for it.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 01:30:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Howdy, friends.

Am back on-line in North Carolina.

OK, so any of you independently wealthy rifle-nuts invested in the Lazzeroni 30 Patriot or 30 Winchester Short Magnum and put it into a short-action 700? They both sound like a new set of barrel-burning .30's (about 3100 fps in a 26" tube), but for the short-throw.

The Lazzeroni is supposed to be a full-diameter rimmed cartridge, and the WSM is on a rebated rim (the WSM has been in both Shooting Times and Handloader recently).

Dave Liwanag <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 01:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, you metalurgy type guys...

I need some skinny.

Last week, I had my 'smith make up two bolt face laps (they look like tiny engine valves, one .375" dia, and one .450" dia)... and asked that they be made out of stainless, so they wouldn't rust (didn't want to do it again next year).

He said they took 3 hours to machine on a lathe, and he went through a few tools (it was E-X-P-E-N-S-I-V-E).

Now before youz bums acuse my 'smith of ripping me off... I needed to put a bevel on the mushroom part of the lap (just where the bevel on an engine valve would be)... and so I put it in a Dremel, and a grinding stone in the fordom... and put each of them to each other, thinking it would be a 20 second job... 20 minutes later, I hadn't hardly touched the edge, and I tore the crap outta the stone... and the "lap" part is only 3/8th" in dia... what the hell are these sucka's made of???


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 01:53:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

I've been trying to follow a court-martial(?) case, and haven't heard the results yet.
Wolfgang <>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:22:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yes, you missed more than something, you missed alot. For one, there is always a war going on to a certain degree. And if not, then a soldier should train/prepare for the next one.

This forum helps me learn about what I can do better to accomplish my mission as a sniper and to train younger soldiers how to stay alive while they do their future missions.

Wanna bes? Please enlighten us and tell us about your exploits as a sniper.

Thats what we do here. And I as a military sniper, I'd be happy to learn what you have to offer in terms of sniping.

Stick around. Read some of the articles. If you don't like them, then leave, but don't cause problems.

Jefe <>
VT, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:22:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

A short while ago, I heard a story about an active duty military officer who refused to wear the United Nations blue helmet and work for the UN. He was court-martialed, and is now fighting to be honorably discharged, or something like that. I've been trying to follow a the case, and haven't heard the results yet. Does anyone here know what I'm talking about, or where I can keep up to date on this? Thanks a lot for your help!

Wolfgang <>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:25:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Quick question.
To oil or not to oil?
Of course I am referring to the barrel. I have a blued Rem. 700 HB (stock) and I am always being told different things.

I've got one respectable source telling me never to oil a barrel. I understand his reasoning, a barrel should not be "slick" as its job is to produce a fairly tight seal and twist the bullet as it travels through.

Then I've got another respectable source telling me I should always oil the barrel after using any solvents to make sure that the metal is in good condition. This I can also understand as I certainly do not want the metal to rust or anything (even though that should never happen as I clean it to a near-mirror finish and keep it in a dehumidified safe).

I know this has almost certainly been covered before, but I did not find it in the Hot tips/Cold shots section, and I don't have the time to dig through that many archives.

What do the experts (you) think/practice/believe on this topic?

Anyone who could email me a response ( would be greatly appreciated as I do try to keep up on the roster, but am often too busy to read every entry.

Thanks in advance,

M. Bortz
Matt Bortz <>
Worried of Rusting or overly slick barrels in the, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:33:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bold: Is using a fired case for dry firing acceptable?

I tried using a fired case for dry fire practice in my Walther P99. After about ten pulls of the trigger, I decided to check the shell. What I found was that the normally 'dimpled' primer had now been pounded into a crater.

At that point, I took the shell out, and bought myself a set of snap caps to use instead.

My answer is, if you're only going to dry fire once or twice, have at it. But if you're looking for something for the firing pin to hit, consistently, so that it doesn't bottom out and break, I'd buy a snap cap instead.
MikeL <>
Beer Capitol, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill from NM:

Hate to break the bad news to 'ya, dude, but of all the places on the 'net to step through the door unnanounced and call everybody a bucha' freakin' wannabes, you have stepped through the wrong door. This place has about as low a wannabe-to-real deal ratio as you could ever hope for. The average experience and knowledgability of the participants in this forum is remarkably high. In fact, wannabes have a funny way of not lasting very long in here, as it would seem that they tend to be exposed real-quick like and are shunned and soon fade away. ON the other hand, people that come in and ask reasonable questions usually get answers they can use.

What is your beef? Are you unhappy that there is a group of people gathering here that actualy know a few things about hitting stuff with a rifle? Are you one of those frustrated "minute of paper plate" deer hunters that cant tag anything beyond buckshot ranges and dosent belive that anybody else can do any better? Stick around. Perhaps you might learn something. But if you cant restrain yourself from lobbing grenades, I suggest you leave.

Neither sniper nor wannabe,
but a competant wrench that
offers techincal advice when
he thinks it can help others.
Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:43:26 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just a short post to update the many list members who have been so supportive during my wife's battle with breast cancer. Many thanks for your thoughts, prayers, and concerns. Your support has helped keep me going during the ordeal.

Sharran's surgery was Friday. Today, we had the first post-op appointment and pathology report. They have gotten all the cancer from the breast and the pathology report shows the lymph glands clear of cancer. She is Cancer FREE!

That is THE BEST holiday gift I've ever gotten!

I have taken a few extra days off. Tomorrow, my brother-in-law and I will be testing a few more 6.5 X .284 loads. Will have a report of our reloading effort tomorrow. Once we have that done, I'll have new 600 yard accuracy data for you...

Again, many thanks for your support during this ordeal.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:48:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

GREAT news Wes!!!!!! We wuz all pulling for you two. Give her a big ole hug and smooch from all of us.

Feeling better about the world now, Bolt out!
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:52:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Boltster; I think Remington made a Classic in 6.5X55. Is that the caliber you're talking about? That's the only one I know of they ever made before this .260 thing. How is the .260 working out? I don't understand the lack of success on this round. Pat did a lot of work with this and I remember his reports but haven't hear a summation of his opinion over all? What da say Pat? So if we go 6.5 284. What would keep us Ugly Americans from embracing the 6.5-06. I've heard some good stuff on that one from hunters but very little on the wannabee page here?
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 02:56:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

The 6.5 X .284 should be build to a LONG action. My own Chandler gun is a long action Rem 700 chassis. I'm using a cartridge OAL of 2.98" and the reamer ground to that spec...could tell you more, but would have to kill you later...;-)

While the 6.5 X .284 could be built on a short action it is not advisable. The reason is that the bullet has to be seated to deeply to make the 2.800" magazine length. The mag could be modified(maybe), but why would you want to go to the expense.

Please don't give me the long action/short action crap. I have both and use both. Frankly, I can't tell a difference in either. You gonna tell me a 1/2" shorter bolt through is "faster". Pulleez!

If you subscribe to that theory I suspect you should be talking to "Mr. Gas Gun", Bravo 762! Who, by the way is making serious believers of some of us bolt gunners.

Semper Fi,

P.S. What do I know, I was only a Combat Engineer Officer anyway...
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 03:04:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Day / Night optics combo issue :

I found a 2nd gen, 1X magnification, NVD scope. Can a scope like that be mounted "in-line" with day optics ? Imagine a setup that the LOS starts from the eye, in the day scope, out the objective lens of the day scope and then in the 1X NVD scope.

Have not bought the NVD yet.


Ares <>
Canton, OH, USA - Tuesday, November 28, 2000 at 03:11:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ares could do that...but the results would stink. You would be kind of looking through a tube into another tube resulting in a very poor field of vision. The day scope would also magnify the imperfections and image problems with the other scope. You just can't do this with your standard setups. However-there