Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 1998
 


Hi All! I'm new to this game of sniping and just found this site tonight and am learning alot from all the old hands here, Thanks people. Unfortunately ( I guess ). I purchased my weapon a Savage 110FP Tactical in 30.06 before finding out the .308 is the best sniping round. So heres my problem. What would be the best ammunition and optics to use to get around the fact that I have a 30.06 instead of the .308. Any and all help would be appreciated; such as, Anyone know of anyone sniping with a 30.06 round? stats on bullet drop, useful range, etc...
JimmyG
JimmyG <jimg@mlode.com>
CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 00:22:08 (EDT) 
EAW : I´ll check with them to see if they have a US importer, if not I´ll help.

H&K SL 6 & 7: Torf we have a gunsmith that works a lot on these and installs all sorts of barrels as well as good stocks. I´ll see if he has a catalog or something. Mail me your snail mail adrress and I´ll relay what I can find.

Bain: do you know anything about a Leupold Laser Rangefinder ? I have asked them via e mail several times and the answers suggest that they are working on something.
Maybe at the NASGW or SHOT ?

My BDU´s and gear are almost dry again after the weekend, time to pack my ruck for the next haul. Hey you Texans, send some sun to mossy green Germany !

Schlachtaxt drei Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 02:50:49 (EDT) 


Rick: Thanks again for the mildot info. Do you have a model # for the Tasco binocs that are Steiner knockoffs? I called Tasco and they acted like I was speaking another langauge.

Thanks again to all for your help in putting my rifle together.

Sandy
Sandy <shiftysand@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 07:54:45 (EDT) 


Jimmy G.
With out starting the great 308 vs. 30-06 debate all over again you don't need to feel you do not have a good sniping round because you have a 30-06 instead of a 308. The old "06" is still a great round and will still hit most things you can see at 1000 yards. You didn't say if you reload or if you will buy factory ammo. If you reload I would use the 168 or the new 175gr. match kings in either Sierra or Hornady.
I've had very good luck with IMR-4064 and Varget in the 30-06. If you don't reload there are several good factory loadings for the 30-06. I think Hornady makes a factory match round.
On Optics you get what you pay for. If you want a tactical scope the Leupold or B&L are hard to beat but they are expensive. Check out the Review section in Sniper Country on the Tasco Tactical it sounds like a good deal for the money. No matter what scope you decide on it should have target knobs so you can dial in you MOAs.
As far as bullet drop, a computer program or a Sierra loading manual will get you in the ball park but you need to go to the range and shoot and shoot all the ranges you will be shooting at and record the data in a book. Once you have your drop you need to go back and do it all over again in the wind because that is what seperates the men from the boys in long range shooting. Hope this helps.

Russell,
Ok, OK,...No more will I use the "S" word in a negative manner, I don't want to take Gooch's "Evil" title away from him and I was raised to not pick on those who were less fortunate than us (Rem.700 owners) It was good hearing from you anyway. Take care and keep your powder dry!!

Pat <mrbullet>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 09:49:35 (EDT) 


Pat a.k.a. Mr.Bullet,
Thanks for the enlightenment, I don't feel so bad now. I did read up on the Tasco Tactical and that seams to be the scope for me, my wife would have kittens if I bought one of the higher priced outfits anyhow.( Ya can't leave'em so ya gotta Love'em ). As for reloading, I was thinking about that, not because I want too, but I live on the "LEFT" coast and live amoung the enemy; who is constantly attempting to usurp my Constitutional rights and I've heard talk of outlawing reloading rigs, ammo and primers etc, etc, etc... here in California. Makes you kinda wonder why the heck I spent 10 years of my life in the military to defend these idiots.
Enough snivelling, Thanks again.
JimmyG
JimmyG <jimg@mlode.com>
CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 11:35:39 (EDT) 
To the Gentleman who asked about the Tasco/Steiner Knock offs.....The Binocs you are looking for would be the Tasco Off Shore 36 in 7x50.
Cory <Ranger9>
Panama City, FL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 12:15:45 (EDT) 
To Johnnie: Thanks for the kind words. I hope you'll share some of your experience with the rest of us.

To JimmyG: I see a few options for you. One, do nothing. There are some great loads for the .30-06 Springfield. (Hathcock's first-tour rifle was a Winchester 70 in .30-06 Springfield -- and "he" did okay with it!) It sounds like you haven't even done any load development yet, so don't get all depressed over (so far) "nothing." Second, and a bit more drastic, have a gunsmith remove the barrel and cut the chamber for .308 Winchester. You'll lose a minor amount of barrel length, but you'd have a rifle in .308 Winchester. As for the magazine... well, it's a long action, and Savage just blocks off the rear portion of the magazine well when they use long actions for short-action cartridges. Any gunsmith could do this for you or Savage could do it for you if you send them the rifle. (In fact, you could send them the rifle and "trade" barrels and have them modify the magazine well. I would think they would do this for you, especially if you haven't shot the barrel yet. It would probably be a minor cost.) Third, replace the barrel with a premium-grade barrel (and modify the magazine well). Really, though, work up some loads first (and don't give up too easily). Then, if all else fails, explore your other options. (And, "Mr. Bullet" gave you some good advice, also. Further, there's a nice "comparison" article on our Articles page, concerning the .308 vs. .30-06 debate.

As for optics, check back through all our Duty Roster Archives. You will find a LOT of scope recommendations. (One of these days, we're going to HAVE to develop a Sniper Country's Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page, I can see it coming.)

To Sandy: I believe the model Rick is referring to (I've seen it, and know exactly which one he's talking about) is the "Offshore Waterproof Binoculars." In my Jerry's catalog, their are a few different versions, but the "gee whiz" model is listed as "7x50mm w/Improved Compass," part number TASOS541, with a price of $177.50 (dealer).

To Pat: "LESS FORTUNATE???!!!" :-)

To Cory: Thanks for the confirmation on the binoculars (I saw your post just before I entered mine).
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:22:12 (EDT) 


JimmyG: I also live here in the Peoples' Republic of California. Don't let rumors of whatever new laws these nitwits are going to pass stop you, get your reloading gear if you want or need it, and get it while you can...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:39:38 (EDT) 


Rick: I have a set of the Tasco's you mentioned. I plan on someday doing a review for the site, but it has been a low priority. For what it is worth, they are surprisingly clear and I have actually enjoyed using them for quite some time. The reticle is not made to the standard arty spec. It is not mils. It does work fairly well though. You can range in meters, yards, or feet. 6 ticks on the reticle equal a 6 foot target, so you can even exrapolate form that. At $199 it is worth the money. But if you buy the newer version you will want to install a SportsFlash filter as the ruby red coating is just as bad as the Steiner coating in terms of Bill Board HERE I AM reflection. God forbid you get caught in a flash light beam with either the M19 or the Tasco! Looks just like to evil Gooch eyes gazing out of the dark at you....
Scott <missing that darn Xring...>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 14:56:59 (EDT) 
I'd like to second the comments on the 30-06 v 308. The only thing the 308 really has over the ought 6 is efficiency. The accuracy potential of the 30-06 may be marginally less than the 308 but probably not enough to notice for the average shooter/rifle combo. In short, keep what you got, develop a good load and have fun. If it just never shoots up to snuff, dump it or rebarrel it. An easy way to tell right up front if the thing will shoot is to go buy some Federal GM in -06. I think it is still available. My buddy's stock M78 Sportsman would print about .9" on a good day, worse the rest of the time. If you can get down to .7 or so with the factory rig and this ammo, smile. From my experience, the .308 under the same conditions was marginally better at .5 to .8".

Now, the up side of your chosen caliber is versatility. You have gobs. The -06 can shoot rounds weighing up to 220 grains or more. While this is not needed for a tactical rifle (depending on your philosophy), it gives you options the .308 does not. Try the 190 grain Match Kings. Good high BC and fair velocity. Best of all, you can tackle any north American game animal and not worry about being under gunned. In short, what you gave up in total accuracy you gained in total versatility. The .308 is so popular in part due to the fact that cases are so much more available today than the 06. Times change. In 1965 -06 brass was as cheap as a promise from Bill Clinton...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:25:52 (EDT) 


Before confusion starts, I was not suggesting hunting with the 190 MK! Use it for tactical and target work. Use the Game Kings for hunting.
Scott <erratta>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:28:19 (EDT) 
So do these Tasco Wunder-binoculars use an "artillery" mil-scale like the Steiners? Are they "auto-focus"? I have a pair of the "cheap, non-milspec" Steiner 8x30 Military/Marine binocs. The optics are outstanding and the auto-focus is very useful, if perhaps a little more eye-straining. I'm shopping for some larger (50mm+) binocs, and the price of the Tasco is certainly attractive. Auto-focus isn't mandatory but I want the optical quality to be as good as the Steiners I have...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:44:03 (EDT) 


Oops, after my last post I reloaded the page and saw that Scott had just answered most of my questions, just not the one about the auto-focus. And I'm not sure if "surprisingly clear" is really good or not... :)
 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 16:00:19 (EDT) 


Sarge peers from his hide and quietly asks:

Here is a stumper, for me anyway, let me see how some of you answer this one! Is there a corelation(sp) between the amount of powder, in grains, used for one bullet weight, in grains and the same powder but a different bullet weight in grains? Example: I currently use(.308) 41 grs of N140 under a 168gr MatchKing and get D--- good groups. Now lets say I want to use a 165gr GameKing with the same powder. Is there some way, other than just plain "playing", to figure how much powder to use to get the same kind of accuracy I get with the MatchKings using the GameKing bullets. Is this totally confusing! Hope not! This should be a good mind exercise for those of you that are mathematically inclined and will keep me from using up a bunch of powder trying to figure this out!

Sarge goes back and waits
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 17:27:10 (EDT) 


Sarge,

Good Question, BAD Idea!!!!

Too many variables, too big a chance for a catistrophic failure and area 51 isn't far enough away.

Take Care!

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolla@access.mountain.net>
Back Home Again in, West Virginia USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 18:10:10 (EDT) 


Where IS that spell checker / proof reader???
Make That <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Wild, Wet, Wonderful, West Virginia USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 18:19:22 (EDT) 
Dave from Belfast - Looks like us military guys were going to leave you hanging on your US military 7.62 ball question. Here's the deal why every body is being so shy...
As I count in my TM 43-0001-27 "Ammo data sheets for Small Caliber Ammo" I count 12 different flavors of 7.62 and 4 or 5 types of "ball" ammo. You more than likely have run into either M80, M118 (3 types floating around) or M852 (not really "ball").

M852 is the mil spec equivelent to Federal Gold medal match. It is easy to identify as the case has a knurling around the base, a headstamp that says "match" and a "hollow tip" projectile. If you are getting a lot fliers out of M852 it is probably you or the gun, not the ammo.

M118 and M80 are hard to tell apart out of the box. If you have two of each it is easy as the overall cartridge length of the M118 is slightly longer. (Longer bullet) If you pull a projectile and the bullet has a square base with 90 degree angles it is 146 grain M80 ball which is used as M14 ammunition or linked for 7.62 machine guns.

If it has a boat tail bullet (has an angled base, looks like a boat from the side) then it is M118. If it has a open tip bullet and a headstamp that says LR on it then you have the new M118 Long Range. Doubt if you have this stuff as it is very hard to get. Just ask Rick Boucher!

Did old white box M118 say "Match" on the head stamp boyz? Can't remember. I know it had LC and the year with no NATO crosshair symbol. M118 special ball has a little crosshair stamp which is supossed to mean it is a standard NATO load. (There is no such thing by the way. Ask me about the difference between Austrailian, Brit, Canadian and US 5.56 NATO ball sometimes.)

Some/most lots of M118 special ball are known for fliers. It was not made to match specs. M80 is supposed to have a certain "inaccuracy" built in as you don't want a M60 LMG to group real tight.

Anything else guys?

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:46:47 (EDT) 


On more thing while I had by ballistics binder out. Someone asked about the load for M118LR. In the 22 March 1966 report from Naval Surface Warfare Lab in Crane, Ind they list an average of 44.1 grains of WC 750 behind the 175 gr Sierra Match king. Primer??Hold on....... Doesn't say. Any one know if they changed anything since then?

Once again Gooch has stirred the shit!!!!

He is out of here!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EDT) 


The M118LR uses the "old" no. 43 match-grade primer, which is press-fitted into the case. I believe that the M118 SB used the no. 34 primer (same as in the M80), which was staked into the case. The cartridge is loaded with 43.9 - 44 grains of WC 750 and has a velocity of 2580 fps. I hear that there are some other powders
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 20:35:56 (EDT) 
Scott (missing the darn x-ring) - Thank you for clarifying my mistake on the range graduations on the Tasco. I last saw it about 5 years ago and never had to use the ranging in the binos because of mil dots and a really HEAVY set of SIMRAD laser range finders.

Dave - To answer your question, I would never again buy another set of Steiners due to the cost and the low return on the cost. While you may "sense" a better quality in the Steiner over the Tasco, you probably wouldn't note a real difference. As I stated earlier, they have great clarity with very low abberation on the edges. Under normal circunstances you will NOT be disappointed. Under extended observation in low light situations, the Steiners will win due to a greater claity. Question, is that clarity worth the $600.00. I don't think so, but that is my opinion. Find someone that owns a pair and try them.

Gooch - I knew you'd answer sooner or later. I too do not remember if the M118 NM was head stamped Match. I could walk out to my "cache" and look, but that would spoil the memory games! If he is using Lot # 086-001 then he will be lucky to keep it within 4 moa due to a Lake City oops in powder throws. If he is shooting M80 ball, then he is ingesting ammo with a built in inaccuracy of 2 to 4 moa depending on the Lot #.

OK Boyz and Girlz (Alex, Bonnie, etc jump in!) Speaking of 7.62mm military ammo, what is the difference between regular linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo and "Overhead Fire" linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo? Gooch, you don't count. That dam theme song Saint Gooch is always talking about is now playing!!!

Gooch - Thanks for reminding me that the Marines sent me 4 cases of M118 SB instead of LR. Like I already have 27 cases of M852, what am I going to use the M118 SB for, the old M60?

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EDT) 


James-
Went out and did as you advised today was not to good to begain with but then I Broke out the ol' Marlein 880 .22 and figured out somewhat what i was attempting to do. And by the time i left the range my head was not buried in the sand but the tail was still tucked:)Have a long way to go but the first step has been taken!!

Scott-
What's the "Sports Flash Filter"? And how does someone get if they need to have it?

Ok, now it's time to laugh at the Air Force Guy. A friend gave me a military style sling and much to my chagrin I can't figure out how to use it. Any instuctions as to it's use would be much appreciated.

Russell-
You are going to love this Rember I e-mailed you that i was having trouble seeing through my scope at high power. Figured out why reading through the DR archives last night, when I mounted and postioned the scope it was at the lowest power setting and not the highest. Duh, Live and learn and don't repete the same mistakes, is what an old MSGT. told me long ago.

Thanks for all the info you gentlemen have provided me over the past couple of months. Work in a max. security prison and some days the only bright spot in an entire shift is knowing that Roster is waiting be read when i get home.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Learning Curve, of Bliss USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 22:42:32 (EDT) 


To Sarge: You’re just going to HAVE to break down, open up your wallet, and buy more powders. I “know” you’re trying to economize (we’ve discussed this offline many times), but you can’t COUNT on getting a good load from a different bullet with the same powder that gives you a good load with another bullet. It has little, if anything, to do with bullet weight. It has more to do with the amount of bearing surface, “true” caliber (of the bullet), and ballistic coefficient. Example: The loads that gave me great accuracy in my 110FP Tactical for target work were meaningless for my hunting loads (168-grain Match Kings versus 165-grain Game Kings). The best load for my 165s came from AA 2520, per Sierra’s recommendation right out of the manual. If you want to play with .308s, get a couple of ball powders, a few good extruded ones, and then start playing with load development. IMR 4064, the “standard” for .308s for years, has SUCKED in every .308 load I’ve ever used it in. With a match barrel on my M1 Garand (.308 Winchester), it finally did “okay” -- but IMR 4895 beat it. The only thing IMR 4064 has done “great” in has been my .416 Remington Magnum loads.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 22:55:42 (EDT) 
Coryand Russ: Thanks for the information on the Tasco Off Shore 36. For a couple of c notes it sure beats shelling out anther 600 dollars for Steiners. That would be a small [rice to pay to get that type of quality. I guess Ive spend more money on a lot more dumber things than good binoc. I imagine I'm going to have to reassess my judgement of Tasco items, especially with the all the positives about this pair of binoc and their tactical scope.

Sarge: To a certain degree I agree with Russ about the your powder dilema, but with you using Vit 140 powder in your 308 for the 165 and 168 grainers, should work quite well. I am a big user of Vit powder in my 308 and 223 and it is hard to beat. I have obtained tremendous accurate with both these bullets, but as you can expect, the 168 grainer out performed the Game King by a slight margin. But if you do unleash those moths in that rarely opened wallet to purchase some bullet poppin' propellant, try some of the Varget powder. As you can see, I'm starting to drift away from the Dupont IMR powders, although I still use the 4895, 4064 and 3031.

Big Al has left the building to curl up next to his bride.

Have a good evening Everybody!

AL
Al Ostapowcz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Terminating Hawgs with Extreme Prejudice in Bountiful, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:35:18 (EDT) 


Torsten-My friend already contacted EAW. The rings are on the way. Many thanks.

The 700P DM went to the range yesterday and continued Shilen's shoot and clean break-in procedure. Fired two five shot and one three shot group. Consistent 2.5" patterns (I refuse to call this a group). When it was heavily fouled (right out of the box), it shot about half this size. The third wet patch after scrubbing comes out clear, but when I got home, I noticed that there is still quite a bit of copper at the muzzle. The bore seems to have an inordinate amount of tooling marks and the chamber scratches hell out of the cases. Haven't played with the torque on the action screws yet. Still 65 in\lbs. Plan to try this on the next trip. Shooting Federal Match. Any ideas on getting this thing to shoot sub-MOA? Already thinking about Accumax II. Who can do a good lap/square/rebarrel job with a reasonable turnaround? Not happy with the Big Green.

Now, where'd I put that hacksaw?
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, tx USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:51:53 (EDT) 


To: Russell E. Taylor
Thanks for the advice, I think I'll try the 1st one. Keep the weapon as is. If I get too frustrated, I'll buy the same thing in the .308 which I may do anyhow (later provided I can afford it).

To:Dave,
These "nitwits" are right now as I type this putting before Gov. Wilson; SB1500 and AB2560 which can technically ban "ALL" firearms in the State of California. With the way it has been written, you could become a felon for having a penknife on a tiregauge. There is a message phone that you can call and leave a 30 second "Veto" message for Gov.Wilson (916)445-2841.

To:Scott a.k.a. xring
Sounds like good solid advice to me, thanks.
JimmyG <jimg@mlode.com>
CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 01:54:56 (EDT) 


To Andrew: I just sent you an E-mail about your problem. If you have further questions, contact me directly. Briefly, for benefit of the others here, lap the bore before you spend money on a better barrel. Do NOT fire-lap the bore. If you can't do a "traditional" lapping job properly, find a GOOD gunsmith who can. (It shouldn't cost you much more than $25 or so. We're talking elbow grease, SOFT lead bullets, and coarse-progressing-to-fine grits applied to the soft slugs.) If, after a GOOD, PROFESSIONAL lapping job, you don't get significantly better groups, I'll buy you a sixpack of your favorite domestic beer. Be advised, though, if you've got other problems with your rifle, lapping won't cure them.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 06:30:27 (EDT) 
Concerning binoculars:
The difference between a quality binocular and one of lesser quality is mainly determined by the precision with which the chassis, or frame of the binocular, is machined. The human eye can withstand a small amount of convergence or divergence of the focal center of the lens groups between the two barrels of the binocular. Another way to think of this is a small amount of "wall-eyed" or "cross-eyed" factor to the binocular frame. What the eye has major difficulty with is when the two lens groups diverge up or down from each other slightly. The manifestation of this problem is eye strain to the user. Bird watchers spend hours looking through a binocular; they will tell you that there is no substitute for quality optics when the requirement is extended viewing. Fortunately it is rather easy to determine if the frame of a binocular is accurately machined for precise alignment of both barrels, simply spend about 10 minutes of continuous viewing time with it. If after that time you have some eye strain, or the beginnings of it, there is sufficient barrel mis-alignment to cause a problem. If there is no eye strain, they are more precise. There IS a difference between manufacturers, you only need compare binoculars directly.

A word about lenses. The quality of the majority of the lenses in most binoculars made today is high, most of the differences is in coatings applied to them. This is the result of major advances made by the Japanese in the method of producing lenses in quantity. The manufacturers most refered to in Duty Roster postings all have good lenses, differences will be in features such as range finding, compasses, mil-dots, etc., and the quality of the chassis of the binocular.

Compare brands you are interested in at the same time if possible, switching from one to the other, and do some extended viewing. Differences in viewing quality will become apparent quickly. If short term viewing is the only reqirement, then cost is not as much of a factor. However, if extended viewing is the norm (ie: glassing for a trophy) then get the best you can afford based on a "road test" of the binocular.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Republic of, MD USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 09:38:05 (EDT) 


Andrew: With your 700P DM to be getting such patterns as 2.5 at 100 yrds, I do not think that just hand lapping will correct that problem, but at least it is a start. It sounds like your rifle could use a good chamber polishing if your cases are coming out very scratched. Your cleaning techniques are exceptionally and keep doing that. By relieving your 65 lbs of torque on the action you may release the barrel into a or back to a free floating one. This could be the problem where at 65 lbs you may have to relieve it barrel channel. But remember there has to be a solution unless you just have a piss poor barrel and some didn't install it correctly. If this is a factory barreled rifle contact Remington and send it back to them. Don't give up on the Fed Match ammo however.

al
Alexander Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:11:31 (EDT) 


Dave: First and explaination of the Surprisingly Clear statement! I am generally a hater of all things Tasco. I simply can find very little in terms of positive comments to offer on their products. That being said, both the SS10x42 and the Tasco Marine binos have given me pause. The binos are pretty good in terms of clarity and construction. I can not claim they are as bright as the Steiners (do not have a set to compare) but they are a quantum leap ahead of the $60 bair of Bushnell binos collecting dust in my closet. The Tasco Marine binos are not auto focus. You must adjust each eyepiece in the same manner as they old artillery binos or the M19s. Once focused for your eye, you do have some leeway and will not have to constantly refocus for various ranges. SO in short, yup, they are worth the money, and yup, I am surprise Tasco made them.

Rick and Gooch: I am going to stick my neck out here and say I "think" that the white box M118 Match did in fact have Match stamped into the head. BUT as I have fired cases from all three rounds (M118 match, M852 Match and M118 Special Ball, named thusly as it was "Special", like Jerry's Kids) I can not be sure which cases I am looking at, beyond the M852 with the Knurled base! But I do have a plain, unknurled case with Match stamped on it. Cunundrums....
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:30:24 (EDT) 


Thanks to all on the Tasco binocs feedback. I'll try to locate a set to actually look through, but don't know how much success I'll have. While the ideal might be to compare plenty of models side-by-side, for 10 minutes at a time in various light conditions, the reality is much different.

Scott, I agree with your assessment of Bushnell, I've owned several of their products and tried others, and wasn't happy with any of them. I have one of their spotting scopes and am looking forward to replacing it with a Leupold or Kowa when budget allows.

Gooch: I think you made an assumption on Dave from Belfast's question. He wanted to know "what the military ball ammo for 7.62 is?" which may or may not mean US military. Perhaps if he's reading this he could clear up the matter?

JimmyG: Thanks for the info, I already have been making my calls as my local NRA group does a great job of keeping me informed.

Rick: You know, if you need to get rid of some of those M852 cases I think I could find a use for them... :)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:16:17 (EDT) 


To all, this is kind of long, so bear with me. You gun smiths out there, feel free to add!

Andrew, here are some simple things to try before doing anything drastic with your rifle. I have a hard time believing the rifle shoots as bad as you say but I suppose a real lemon can get out once in a while. First off, I assume the scope is adjusted for your eye and the reticle is crisp against the target. Next I have to assume you have a solid bench platform with which to test the rifle.

Now onto some quick trouble shooting. Check the barrel for contact with the stock by passing a piece of paper under the tube, Slide it all the way back to the receiver. It should not snag or bind.

Next, with a pencil, mark the postion of your action screws. Carry the mark to the trigger guard so that you can find the approximate position later. Remove your scope and mount.

With the rifle laying in a rest, top up, Loosen the rear screw. Does the action pop up? If not, Reinstall the screw. Remove both screws and remove the action form the stock. Do you notice any wear marks on the bedding? Is the bolt handle hitting the rear of the slot in the stock? You will see a small mark it is does? Relieve if necessary.

Mark the recoil lug with talcum powder or foot powder (field expeidient) and reinstall the action. Remove. Does the lug contact the rear of the slot in the aluminum bedding block?

If the action is not sprung from lousy bedding, reinstall the action. By the way, with my bedding totally out of whack, the rifle still shot sub moa, so you may have other problems. Bedding usually causes odd stringing, but not necessarily really large groups. Barrel contact will cause inconsistency as the rifle heats, but not necessarily large groups. Is your groups stringing? Which way?

If you have a two piece scope mount base, Install both bases. Lay a straight edge across the top of the front base to the top of the rear. Are they aligned? Is there a gap between the straight edge and the rear base when you apply pressure to the straight edge against the front base? Sight down the action from the rear of the rifle. Are the bases level? If not, the scope, once installed can stress the action and the action the scope. Not good.

If you have a one piece base, install the front screws only. is there a gap between the rear of the base and the top of the action? Again, if this condition exists, it can cause stress on action or scope. Remove front screws. Install rear screws. Recheck.

Barrel. GO buy some JB bore cleaner. Completely clean the bore as directed. Do it again. JB should remove all fouling and let you start fresh. Use JB between EACH round for the next twenty rounds. You want that bore naked so that the break in process can smooth out the tooling. You can skip this if you have the barrel lapped.

Check you crown. It would have to be totally trashed to give you such lousy groups, but it is worth looking at. My 22-250 had a ding on the edge and still shot into the .4s, but you never know...

Check the contact area on the back of the bolt lugs. If you only have a very thin wear mark in the bluing, your bolt is not making much contact with the receiver. Most rifles will shoot well in spite of this, but it doesn't help. You want at least 50% to 60% contact in a factory rifle. 100% is better, but unusual.

Chances are bedding is the culprit in this problem. Try easing the action screws out one eigth of a turn. If bedding is the issue, get it fixed, fix it your self, or sell the rifle. If the barrel is still fouling badly after you have tried extreme cleaning, sell the rifle or return it to Remington with a really nasty letter. They WILL replace the complete barreled action if it is not acceptable and they screwed up. Huge tooling in the bore is a SCREW UP. Frankly, if it is shooting into 2.5 inches at 100 yards and your style is not at fault, I'd not waste my time on any of the above. I'd go right to the nearest Remington Repair rep and scream. Insist he send it back for replacement. That is why he is there. Go to the Remington site to locate the rep nearest you.

Hope this helps and hasn't annoyed too many of you for its length. This is my long post for the season...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:18:46 (EDT) 


I'm Baaaaaaaack! Phones lines screwed up and I just got them repaired. Cammo Jell-o for everyone!

Russ: Do you ever answer your phone?

Bain: Any reports of trouble with the Hornady TAP ammo? Got some and have had it shoot VERY low compaired to my special ball.

Torsten: Where's my walker?

Rick: Check 6 and e-mail.

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Hurricane City, USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 14:22:33 (EDT) 


Intel Update:

Scott- Thanks for the suggestions. You too Russ. For the record, I don't shoot THAT bad (Custom KS .338 shoots Federal/Nosler 210s about 1-1.25 MOA). However, I was shooting @ a range that has an anti-elevation shield immediately in front of the firing line. Have heard that bullets can be effected by passing close to objects but have never had problems with this before. Used JB extensively during first trip to range and it seemed to have no effect. Sweet's cleared up most of the copper at home. During second range trip, 25 passes with Shooters Choice on a brush would result in clean wet patch after every shot, but after range session, heavy copper was apparent.
The Mk4 bases are NOT square, front base appears to be .020" lower and perhaps angled down to front. Sighting from rear, they appear to perhaps be out of level. Slid a piece of notebook paper through channel and it becomes snug about 3" ahead of action, but can be slid all the way back. Recoil lug shows pretty good contact across the entire face of the bedding block. Recoil lug appears square, but out of plumb. Locking lugs show very light wear along edges (40%?) with one good contact patch (10%?) centered on leading edge of right lug and following edge of left. Drew a line on action along stock and noticed no movement when I removed rear screw. Good contact with edges of block between recoil lug and mag well, inconsistent contact with edges elsewhere. No apparent wear on stock. Is the problem with my bases or is my action tweaked?
When I bought this rifle, I intended to have it rechambered and squared, assuming I got results similar to X-ring's review gun. Probably would have had it Blackstarred. If my barrel is trash, does this have any bearing on the quality of the action? Sorry about the long post. All input is greatly appreciated. Seeking half MOA.
Off to fire some AA at small feathered fast-movers,
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, TX USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 16:20:49 (EDT) 


I am having a custom rifle built with a Remington action in 300 win mag. I would like to know what the best twist for this round using federal gold medal match in 190 grain Sierra MatchKing BTHP. All information would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Pickett <PHarris168@aol.com>
Hills of , TN USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 16:48:49 (EDT) 
Andrew

One thing I haven't seen mentioned and is worth a try is to mount a different scope and shoot the rifle. I believe in this enough that I have one scope I use to set all my rifles up, I know what this scope will do, anything outside these parameters is then the rifle.

Dave
Dave Martin <theopair@yahoo.com>
ok USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:15:31 (EDT) 


Andrew,

Scotts right with his advice on the things to check on your rifle. It sounds like a scope problem more than a rifle problem. You can have at least half the things Scott mentioned wronge with your gun and it will still shoot better than that! Have you tried a different scope on it? I had a 223 start shooting bad one day for no reason and the scope had went "South" on me. I changed scopes and that took care of the problem. (Of course this was after another 500 rounds down range and a number of powder and bullet changes)

Sarge,

On your question, I've only had one gun that shot the same load with both the match and the hunting round and it was a 300 Win Mag with the Hornady 168s and the 165BT the only real difference was about a one half inch point of impact change and a tenth change in group size. The Nozler Balistic Tip in some of my rifles will shoot better than the same weight match round!! This seems to be true mostly in the 6mm.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:17:12 (EDT) 


Pickett,

I just missed your post or I would have answered you with my other post. Go with the 1 in 10 twist. I had several 300 Win Mags and they all shot well. I used the 190s in all of them and they all seemed to like IMR4350 the best with RL-22 a real close second. All guns are differen't but it will be a good starting point.
Par <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:25:34 (EDT) 


Sarge fires from his hide:

Thanks one and all for the powder/bullet recommendations and comments, they are appreciated. First I'd like to ask....WHAT'S A WALLET??? I'm so broke I can't even change my mind!!! Now as for the combinations: I've tried the N140 with the 165 (same load 41 grs) and the only thing I remember was it shot a bit high, 1" at 100yds, compared to the 168, but I need to try that again. As to Varget, I tried some in various different rifles, including the .308 and to be honest NONE of my rifles liked it AT ALL! Only other powders I currently have are H380 for my .22-250 and N160 for my sons .243. So yes I guess I'll have to find, first a wallet, then the money to put in it so I can get a can or two of different powders! OK Russ...you talked me into it AGAIN, I'll try the AA2520 first mainly because history has shown that your 110FP and mine seem to like the identical loads!

Sarge slides back in his hide waiting for return fire and any other suggestions/recommendations!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:45:01 (EDT) 


To Andrew: Scott is right, on all he said... but I maintain that if your bore is fouling as bad as you said, and if it looks that bad, then you should lap it. And certainly, as Al pointed out (I just didn’t say anything about it earlier), if the chamber’s that bad, it should be polished. You could do this yourself with a power drill, a segment of cleaning rod, some patches, and some JB Bore Paste or even rubbing compound (block off the bore, first).

It seems, Andrew, that you and your rifle are fast becoming a Sniper Country “project.” So, whatever you decide to do with all the varying pieces of advice we’ve all given you, please do us a favor and document the results of each change you make, and report to us on your findings.

To Scott: That was an excellent post. I’m doubling your Sniper Country salary.

To Ed: Phone? During the day, no. I sleep during the day, like a vampire. Nature of the beast when you work third shift. I got your message that you called, off the answering machine, but you didn’t leave a number to call you back. Keep trying. Hey, call RIGHT NOW, I’m here!!! :-)

To Sarge: Yes, I agree, our two 110FP Tacticals seem to like the same fodder. One nice thing about hunting loads with the AA 2520, it sure as heck meters well!!!

Note:  I just finished cleaning up the Duty Roster a bit, removing double posts from Al O. and some others.  Hey, guys, look... long posts are one thing, DOUBLE POSTS ARE ANOTHER!!!  Do you guys think you could manage to go for a while without any double posts?!!!  Marius, Mr. Bain, and me are the primary "Roster Cleaners" around here, and we'd sure appreciate it if you'd JUST HIT THE !q#$@%^ "SUBMIT" BUTTON ONE TIME!!!

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 20:34:02 (EDT) 



Stagger - You asked about the sports flash filter. I know of a device called the "Kill flash". I think the sports flash is a lighter weight version of the kill flash. It is a honey comb like device which goes over the objective lens on a scope to reduce reflection. It works good in bright light conditions such as over snow and sand as there is plenty of abient light around. It does cut down on the light transmitted through scope though. I think Butler Creek distributes them know.

You also ask about the use of the military sling. I "ass"ume you mean the M1907 MRT leather sling. Giving instructions on the use of "Rubics Sling" through this media is like telling you how to rebuild a small block chevy over the phone. Not prudent. Find an old high power shooter is about the best I can do. Seriously, if any one tried to tell you how to attach and adjust one over this web site you would probably end up with one end of the sling wrapped around you neck and the rifle barrel up your butt. It is confusing.

Binoculars, Those of you near military posts keep an eye out at the disposal auctions. The airforce recently had a bunch of M19 7x50's up for auction. My unit scarfed a bunch of them up for 50.00 each.

By the way Scott it is the M22 series of bino's that have the "catch me-kill me" laser filters on them. It's too bad that none of us have figured out how to remove the filters. Not that any of us would do that if we could figure it out because that would be against regs. Everybody knows that soldiers and Marines never violate the regs.

Dave from San Jose - Scuuuuuse me. I shall refrain from making "ass"umptions based on a question.

Dave from Belfast, Maine, USA did you mean Irish ball? I "ass"umed you meant US.

Well enough salient commentary for tonight.

Gooch is going to get some sleep tonight. Enough web surfing for me. Wait a minute, I know a good Jenny McCarthy web site!!!! Here we go!!!!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, Ar USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 21:11:36 (EDT) 


Big Ed: No, not yet. I'm working on it (as is Russ). How did you get some?

Gooch: Hey, how can I snag one of these great deals on "jen-U-wine" M19 binocs?

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 23:00:49 (EDT) 


Russ: Sorry about double post. It was my fault and purely unintentional. Russ: Sorry about double post. It was my fault and purely unintentional. (Ooops)

Gooch: After reading your post and article about the Mil-Dot Master, I will be ordering one. You know that for $29.95 it is about the cheapest thing which one can find related to tactical shooting. And if it works the way you said it does, well, I "ass" ume the money will be well spent. And another thing! If you spent $50.00 for those M19 binoculars, I gladly buy a pair from your ourfit for $75.00. That's a pretty good return on anyone's money. Please let me know if any are still available.

Gramps: Nice to see you back again and haven't forgot where we were located. It probably wasn't, the computer. You probably just misplaced your spek-tick-als. Welcome back!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Doublin" my Pleasures here in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 00:37:21 (EDT) 


Crazy J: I'm not a true expert on the subject on rifle scopes but my Tasco World Class Plus gives me great service on my Savage 110 .30/06. The clicks are a little soft and I would prefer if they were a little harder. As far a clarity goes well it compairs with a well known scope that costs about 8 times more!
 

Steve: I noticed nobody wants to debate weather or not the Springfield 03A3 0r the Enfield #4(t) is more accurate!
 

Sarge: All I can say about your load is play with it and find one you like. I too am on a limited budget so i found 1 powder for three diffferent calibers. I've tried Varget in the /06 and 22-250 i't fine but I can't get any FACTORY info for the .303. I found Factory info with BL(c)2 and I be happy with that. (.750 /06) (.690 .22-250) (skeet@300yds
.303)
 

(A redneck too big to climb trees) Confederate
Confederate <confederate123@yahoo.com>
Possum Town, Mississippi USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:27:25 (EDT) 


To Al: No problem.
To Al: No problem.

You're not the only one, it's just that your name was one I could remember. Believe me, many others have done it too. In "the old days," one member of the Sniper Country Council, who shall remain nameless, but whose initials are "Scott Powers" was the double-post king. Actually, he went about setting new records... five, six, occasionally even MORE "repeat" posts than THAT!

To Gooch: The DRMO here on (Rock Island) Arsenal Island might have some of those binoculars. I've put the word out to a friend who will apprise me when the next auction is. (I know what you mean about "great finds." In my last Reserve unit, when I was a member of the rifle team, one of our guys, who was also the UA in our unit, found a Unertl 80mm spotting scope at the RIA DRMO. Because it was "Army property," he just did what any self-motivated UA would do -- he did a property book transfer from "them" to "us"... after showing "need," of course. Once it was ours, we took it with us to compete at Camp Robinson. That was a NICE scope!!!)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:50:10 (EDT) 


On second thought... I believe that Unertl was 100mm. In fact, I know it was. Man, that thing was CLEAR!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:54:49 (EDT) 
I've been trying to get my Model 70 300 WinMag to group. It was recently rebarrelled with a Shilen stainless #4 contour that finished out at 27". It's in an HS stock torqued down at 45 in/lbs. It's been shooting 1.5-2MOA, but I noticed that after the barrel heats up, the groups tighten up a bit. I slid a business card under the barrel to the receiver, where it becomes snug. The first three shots after I did this went into .375". The last two opened the group up to about 1.5. The barrel was allowed to cool completely between shots.

I was thinking of bedding the the first two inches in front of the receiver to dampen the vibes on the long barrel, which I suspect may be part of the problem, but those last two wild shots have me puzzled. Any thoughts?
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 06:50:47 (EDT) 


To Greg: You'll get different opinions, but that's what the Duty Roster is for. Personally, I've always heard that a barrel (especially a heavy one) should be bedded "at least" two inches forward of the receiver lug. And if you're going to look into the bedding situation, you might as well check the whole thing (Scott posted some VERY helpful hints last night). A #4 contour isn't that heavy, but a 27-inch barrel, hanging off the action, can perhaps put a little more stress on the receiver than you might want. I don't think it would hurt to bed three inches forward of the receiver lug. I'm curious why your groups are tightening up when the barrel heats up. Is it actually that, or is your barrel fouling with copper and then, therefore, shooting better? Again, refer to Scott's guidelines (which I'll probably post as an article, shortly, on how to inspect and correct "problem" rifles).

You didn't mention your ammunition; what are you using? Handloads? Premium match-grade ammo? If handloads, you may still need to find the right load. If factory ammo, you may need to shop around. Since you selected a #4 contour, I presume you're intending for this rifle to be mainly a hunting rig. Whatever the case, don't expect a #4 contour barrel to hold sustained tight groups as well as those of barrels with a #7 or a #8 contour.

Did you break in the barrel properly?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 07:07:35 (EDT) 


Al: Specks, what specks? I use coke bottle bottoms!

Bain: I told Russ where to get TAP, I know it's super secret and only for LE personnel but even you can buy it from the Sportsmans Guide, (now don't tell anybody OK)?

Russ: I e-mailed you my number young-un, did ya ferget it?
I know you sleep days, so do I, called you in the PM, will call again this PM, going to bed now!!!!!! (Teenaged wife is waiting and the Viagra just cut in)!!!!!!!!

Torsten: Walker, one each, WHERE?????????? Has the Eagle landed? Does it fit?

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old folks home, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 08:27:24 (EDT) 


To Gramps: You E-mailed me your number? Okay, I'll look for it.

To those interested: Recently, I posted that I have in my possession a (published) letter from a sniper (Army) complaining about the M24 SWS. In case you've been coming here first, instead of to the main page (shame on you if you do), you may not have noticed that I posted the letter on the Articles & Commentary page. Rick, the guy was at FT Bragg, so it won't surprise me if you know him, or know OF him. Many of you wrote to me, privately, asking to see the letter, so I've scanned it and posted it. It takes a while to download, because I used a high (600 DPI) resolution to scan it, but at least it's clear enough that you can read it.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:18:53 (EDT) 


Sarge,
Before you discount Varget did you load it at the max of 46grs. in civilian or 45 to 45.5grs. in military cases?? It has shot great in all my 308s but only at 45 to 46 grs. if I went lower the groups turned into patterns. I tried to get it to match the same FPS on a Cronograph as Federal Match and it shot terrible. When I went to the recommended load fo 46grs. with federal cases my groups went to .3s & .4s at 2800 fps. What I like about it is you get the best of both worlds, speed and accuracy.

Gramps,
Welcome back!! Boy...Just because a guy forgets where you left your computer you catch all kinds of flack!!

Gooch,
Shawn called last night and said he has a meeting with Major Brewer's recruiter on the 12th and 13th. Sounds as though he might get in with them. They said he might get to go to school in Ark. so he was hopeing you would still be around. He said ever since he talked to the recruiter he just can't quit grinning(HA). (I told him when he talked to them to see if he could take me along) I got Bruce's Mil Dot
Master it works great!! the only suggestion I would have is that you could range smaller targets to less than one mil but you were right on on your evaluation, quick and easy to understand.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:37:47 (EDT) 


Double Posts: GUILTY as CHARGED. I am the all time Dali-Lama of multiple posts. Of crouse, it wasn't my fault...really...I am telling the truth...really....

SportFLash: The SportFLash is a small disk that slips into the Butler Creek flip up scope cap. It is a honey comb grid about 1/4" thick. It is equivelent to about a 4" sunshade. It eliminates tell tale reflection from the lens. Costs about $7.00. Downside: It really cuts back light transmission. They say you lose about 15%. Sometimes this matters, sometimes it doesn't. Nice thing about the filter is that it is easily removed when necessary. I even put a set on my Tasco Marines (now called Offshores). You can purchase this filter from Premier Reticle, Sparten Supply, Natchez, and just about anyone else who sells Butler Creek products. The filter is a spin off of the Teneabreax KillFlash used by the military. Teneabreax Licensed Butler Creek to sell the SportFlash.

Gooch: Yeah, that was a typo on my part. As an 11H I only rated the M19. The M22 was horded by those unappreciative cretins in the scout platoon. Of course, as it stood out so bloody well, I didn't mind all that much. When caught in light at night, the M22 really did look like the devil himself was staring at you! $50 bucks for the M19 huh? Hmm....So Gooch ole buddy ole pal...drop me a line huh?

Andrew: If your scope mounts are that far off and canted sideways, the only fix is to go to a one piece mount and have a Remington Rep play with it till he can square it up. Do not pay a smith for this as it was Remington's mistake and their responsibility! I know what the Rep will tell you. Unless you put money into the gun in terms of tuning and action truing, he will want to send it back for replacement, which as I said, is what I would do were I you. If the barrel is that bad AND the scope base mounting holes are drilled that out of square, Remington had better replace it post haste! Look at it this way, you'll be getting a new barreled action! The comment on the scope was a good point. Check it. But still, if the mounting holes are that far off, your scope is being unecessarily stressed and that is unacceptable. Toss in the crappy bore and you have a lemon. Return it.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:44:57 (EDT) 


Anderw, go to this site. It has al isting of all the Remington Reps in Texas.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/firearmsfr.htm
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:51:58 (EDT) 


Just woke up this morning to hear that Swiss Air flight 111 crashed no more than 85 miles from where I live,apparently with a loss of 230 lives.Certainly not a good way to start the day.My heartfelt sympathies go out to the families of those who lost their lives.

I have a question in regards to barrell stiffness.Does stainless steel offer more resistance to barrell harmonics than say chrome moly steel because of its composition and hardness ?

If this is so,would even stonger steels such as titanium or other alloys (can you imagine how much this would cost !) offer improved accuracy gains over conventional commercially available steels such as chrome moly or 416 stainless steel ?

I would "ass"ume that if an even stronger material was available,that you could have a barrell that was lighter and more durable barrell life (in terms of number of accurate rounds fired) and maybe easier to clean.

Do any of you out there have an opinion on this ?

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada, eh ! - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:52:23 (EDT) 


Pickett: Just rread your post about your 300 WM and barrel twist. I agree w/ Mr. Bullet one thousand percent.

1 in 10 twist for 300WM w/ 190gr bullets. By the way, will you be handloading?

Scott: That post, re: Andrew's rifle was a great read. I read things like your post, I learn stuff. Thanks. Your post needs an acronym and a title:
B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M. pronounced "Bits-pissersam".. which means: Basic Triage & Diagnostic Protocol for Successful Proactive Paradighm-Shift Regarding Rifle/Scope Accuracy Malaise.

That ought to at least give mid-management level Dilberts a bit of a bodyhard..

Well, I missed my last two electroshock appts. and have had too much coffee this morning. Plus sleeping in the street next to my mailbox waiting for my Mildot Master to arrive puts me on edge.
 
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 10:13:45 (EDT) 


Russ: For your unswerving devotion to getting rid of the double posts, I'm sending over the Double Mint Twins tonight to help sooth your raw fingertip, and relieve all that pent up frustration. Its the least I can do!

Jeff B from Canada: As far as barrel stiffness goes, a 26 or a 27 inch tube on your action is ok but is not really necessary for a 308. I would recommend a 24 incher,in a #6 or #7 contour and fluted for better cooling. I also think that a stainless steel barrel is slightly softer than a Chrome moly barrel. The last time I inquire from Douglas, this is what they told me. But this was quite some time ago and I could be wrong. You know the miind is a strange thing. Gramps - you can relate, Im sure.

Jeff A from GA. Bits-Pissersam HUH?????

Notice that GOOCH is keeping awfully quiet sittin' on them thar Binoculars.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Lookin Out my Back Door in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 11:13:16 (EDT) 


Thought I would add a bit of history to this channel:
Old Poem: One went high, one went low where in the h,,, did the other one go, Remington or was that burmashave.

Any way:
1750 Brown Bess 80 yard accuracy,
1775 Pennsylvania Long 300 yard,
1855 .58 Caliber rifled musket 500yd,
1859 Sharps 600yd,
1863 Whitworth 1000yd, cost $500 back then
1874 50 caliber Sharps 1200yd,
1903 Springfield(M1D) 500 yd,
1937 Model 70 Winchester 1300 yds

The longest shot that I have read about that was confirmed and didn't use >2 rounds was made by Hathcock using a 50 caliber with an 8x Unertl. 1st hit the bike and the 2nd hit te guy that was on the bike @ 2500yds. Buddy that isn't just hit and miss.

One last piece of history, "War our Bussiness Death our Only Product".

I wasn't sure if history was appropriate for the site, so I'll send this up as balloon.

Question: What is the best charge thrower for getting 1/10 grain accuracy from extruded powders? I keeping hearing culver types are the best. Anybody seen comparisons?

Signed LMGTS(Let me get this straight.)
 
 

tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
FR, VA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:12:59 (EDT) 


As many of you have requested info on Cryo treatment and its affects, the following may be a welcome read:

In the September 98 issue (Vol 46, No. 5 ) of Precision Shooting magazine, on page 8, an aritlce resides by one Kevin Thomas. Mr. Thomas happens to work at Sierra Bullets and due to the nature of his work, fires about 60,000 rounds a year testing projectiles. He recently completed an indepth test of three identical barreled actions used in this testing process. Two of the three were cryo'd and one was kept untreated as a test base. The article is well worth reading, as the results are well laid out and to my mind, settle the issue once and for all.

I'll give you a short synopsis. Cryo does not make a rifle easier to clean as has been claimed. Cryo does not make a rifle more accurate, at least if the rifle in question already has a quality barrel (he used Hart barrels for the test). Cryo in fact seemed to make no difference at all between the barrels. The one and only positive result garnered would seem to be a slight increase in the accuracy LIFE of a barrel. The non-cryo'd barrel lost accuracy around 4,000 rounds. The two cryo'd barrels went as far as 4,500 rounds and one of those two may go a little farther. But that was it. A fouth barrel from BlackStar was also included in the test and the results were about the same. It lasted no longer than the others and died before the 4,500 round mark.

Errosion was consistent in all rifles with no noticable difference. All rifles shot to with in a .100" or so in terms of average accuracy. Mr. Thomas did make mention of the fact that these were top quality barrels and that it is possible that a factory barrel might show more improvement as it undergoes more stress in its creation. But the end result from his test would indicate saving your money. This would seem to correspond with my FAR, FAR less indepth testing to date which has indicated very little improvement by cryo treating. I saw far more improvements from bedding fixes and truing the action. If you have a choice of truing the action or cryo/polish, true the action!

The report is well worth reading. If you do not subscribe to PS, you can get single copies by calling the magazine. 860-645-8776.

Ok. I lied. The inspection piece was NOT my last long post...but after reading this article, it seemed worth passing on!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:36:36 (EDT) 


Jeff A.,

"B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M."? man, I like that!

Russ,

there you have your name and acronym for Scott's piece when you post it. If I see a name like that I will just HAVE to look, just to see what the heck all that is about :-)

Scott,

nice piece - very nice indeed. E-mailed it to myself for my archives, printed it out for my files and my safe - will keep this one to be used. Great piece!

Gooch,

how much did you say again it'll cost you to ship one of those binos to South Africa? :-)

Now the South African Army, when THEY sell stuff, you know it is really stuffED!

Jeff B,

on barrel material. If one could get those "stiffer" materials, it would have an influence. All good? I am not so sure. Those barrel harmonics play an important role - else one would not free-float a barrel, but totally clamp it down. Also, it would bring its own problems.
What would happen to the "bulge" one gets where the bullet travels through the barrel? If the material is harder, it will be less prone to bulge, and possible deform the bullet more, destroying accuracy much more than one would gain with the stiffer barrel. Also, if the bullets were too hard, like tungsten-cored, one might get more damage to the barrel, and even have a barrel that pulls a cast-iron on you, and just shatters!
Yes, I know I am now talking real extremes, but that's the fun of this, isn't it?

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 14:18:55 (EDT) 


Russ,

Barrel break-in was as Shilen recommends: clean after every round for the first five, then clean after every 5-shot group for 10 groups. The group I referred to in my first post was actually the 11th group. Cleaning was with Hoppes #9 and JB paste. To the naked eye, the bore looks clean and mirrored, but you can detect some tooling marks in the grooves.

The ammo are handloads: 76gr H4831 behind a Sierra 180gr SPBT, Federal Gold Medal brass, Win WLR primers. Tried CCI 250 (magnum) primers, but they were flattening and cratering a bit too much to suit me. As a side note, I did try shooting the same load with the bullet seated out just barely touching the lands, which is about .150" longer than "magazine" depth: no improvement.

As you suspected, this is a hunting rifle that I will be using in Wyoming in about 4 weeks.

I understand your point about the fouling rather than barrel heating, but the 3 shots into 3/8" (with the business card shoved under the breech) was with a clean, cool barrel.

Perhaps I am expecting a bit too much out of a light barrel like this, but I have some time yet to play with it. In addition to following Scott's tips, maybe I should try some factory ammo such as the Federal Premium with the Nosler Partitions.
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 16:53:12 (EDT) 


Marius I don't think your too far off on extremes.In fact I think you've made some good points.

You often hear (especially on this site !) about individuals who wish to replace their current barrell with a custom replacement.People who shoot magnum calibres such as myself can't expect to get near the same barrell life that should be expected if you shoot other calibres such as .308 Winchester.

My point being that I can expect to replace barrells more often than some others.For example,since I've purchased my Rem. Sendero in 7mm mag. in November last year I've put around 500 rds. through it.Sure,I know its just getting broke in.I'm trying to prolong barrell life by seldom shooting maximum power loads and using moly coated bullets.

Therefore, I was wondering if other materials might offer more barrell life than what is currently available.Of course it would likely be more costly but it could very well be worth the extra expense.

Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them.

Hey,just remember that we live in a market based economy and if there's enough demand for anything,then you can be sure someone will be willing to supply it.
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EDT) 


To Al: Thanks for the offer of the twins, but I’ll pass. Just not in the mood for that kind of stuff these days. Thanks, though.

To Tom “LMGTS” Scott: Gazing with awe at the benchrest sport for a few years now (undeniably a rich man’s game), I’ve looked into “what it takes” to be successful. There are a couple of other really good ones, but the Culver model is unarguably one of the very best. It’s also, like anything else associated with benchrest, NOT CHEAP. I’d be interested in hearing what measures some of you “serious” handloaders are using, along with your comments about them.

To Greg: A #4 contour barrel isn’t “toast” by any means, just because it’s lighter than a #8 version. If you go through Scott’s soon-to-be-infamous post, you might find some problem areas. By all means, try some premium-grade ammo, shoot carefully, and see what happens. Report back to us when you’ve done so.

Hunting in Wyoming, eh? Pronghorn? (( sigh ))

To Jeff B.: “Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them.” Quite right. This is exactly why I double cryoed my .338/378’s barrel.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EDT) 


Scott: Thanks for the loads of info. Remington rep is nearby. Checked the bases with a bubble level and they definitely appear to be out of square on both axes. I can see how improperly drilled holes would throw them out of square on the left-right axis, but how could that affect them on the longitudinal axis? Wouldn't that denote either that the action was not square or that the bases themselves were improperly machined (which I "ass"ume only Leupold could determine as they are dissimilar and I don't know the proper dimensions). If I decide to rebarrel (likely), I would like to be sure I don't have a lemon action. Didn't even think to check the scope as it is a brand new Mk4 M1, but I will check that out on the next trip to the range.
Thanks to everyone,
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Throw a rock, hit a fascist, TX USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 20:49:10 (EDT) 
To Confederate: Enfield vs Springfield debate
I guess most of these guys here prefer these generic,
no history, or character, varmit rifles once removed.
By the way, the only things that the Springfield needed was a decent scope and a milled floorplate to be a capable performer.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H,, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 00:38:19 (EDT) 
Scott- I liked your article in last months issue of TS. A friend of mine just bought a new PSS and mounted a Leupold Tactical on it. I showed him the article and he is making plans for changes already. The only thing he doesn't like is that my Savage shoots 1/4 moa better than the Remington with a Tasco Tactical on top. ( They just won't listen Russ! )
Gooch - Hey man I understand your a new bino. dealer?!?
Please let me know if you can get more.

Sarge - Let me know how your new loads turn out.

Stay safe guys
Brent
 

Brent <brenting@juno.com>
hotashellin, Louisiana USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:15:44 (EDT) 


M19 Bino's - Sorry guys. My unit is not in the retail buisness re: the binoculars. Our best bet on these things is if Russ catches a bunch on auction at his DRMO.

Pat Murphy - You guys that have purchased Mildot Masters need to email bnrobins@flash.net for instructions on how to use it for targets under 1 mil.

In short if you look at the right window you will notice that on the right side of the window, you have mils broken down into gnats hairs. In the right side window you have the bullet drop in inches. Line the gnats hair mils (target mil reading) with the bullet drop inches (used in this instance as target size) and read the distance in the normal place. Viola!! Bruce Robinson can email you a sheet to add to your manual if you email him. He doesn't relate directions using such colorful terms as "gnat hairs" but it is a bit clearer.

mrbullet - Good to hear about the younger Murphy and his endeavor to join the NE guard. I know he will enjoy his time with them. Nebraska has a great shooting program. Sometimes I think they are in a different National Guard than I am. Let me know if he comes down here. Tell him to have his ghillie done prior to arrival. He'll get an extra few hours of sleep if he does.

Speaking of sleep I think I shall obtain some of said sleep.

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:18:37 (EDT) 


Russ,

the blue and yellow shotgun company will have production samples in three weeks. brace for impact !

ende
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 06:43:43 (EDT) 


Jellomeister,

der Eagle has gefallen out of zee schky !

It fit´s, thank you, what do I do about people staring at me ?? I´ll send you all the babes that I cant handle.

The walker is hung up in customs, I need export permission since it contains material for LE and Mil only. e.g., the Martin Baker seat cushion, and the Huffer APU ! They cant figure out what the Camo Jell-O (tm) fed vulcan is for eather.

I´ll keep you posted BTW our Nauga pup is comming along
nicely.
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:11:34 (EDT) 


Jellomeister !

out of my TM30-606 German phrase Book,

ZINT zee SHARF-sheet-sa ? KAW-men!

Ende
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:20:12 (EDT) 


To Tom Scott, re. long shots.

Djengis Kahn set up two memorials for one of his archers somewere along the Silk Road in Mongolia (I think). One stone was placed were the arrow was fired from and the other were the target were hit. The distance between the stones are something like 600 or 900 meters (can't remember). Saw this many years ago in a documentary about the Silk Road. Not bad with a bow and arrow!

To Scott Powers: Have you received my snailmail? Sent it last friday, airmail.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 09:20:49 (EDT) 


Gooch,
When making the ghillie suit what works the best a hood or a boonie hat?? also what color of BDUs works the best??
I've made several for coyote hunting and I use a hamock net and lace the burlap through the netting the last one I made I shredded the burlap into strings and tied it on, its more
durable but harder to change colors. which way would you recommend doing it?? Thanks for the info on the Mil Dot Master too. I had a E.mail from Bruce telling me the same thing and offering the new up date. He really takes care of his customers and has a great product for all you guys shooting the Mil Dots.

To ALL,
I know this will start one Heck of a responce and fight but here goes, I had a new Schneider 308 bbl put on my 308 this summer and at first I had problems with a land fouling at the end of the bbl. It just wouldn't come clean for the last inch or so. So I would get out the JBs and after a few passes it was gone until the next cleaning. Finally I called Mr.Schneider and told him about the problem and that I kept getting a flyer almost all the time. He asked me about the break in and the cleaning procedure and had no problem with it until I told him about the JBs and he said eveytime you use JBs you will need to start the break in process allover again because your gun will foul more until its made its "Bond" with the copper. I of course doubted him and tried it for myself and found that it would indeed take longer to clean and had more copper fouling until it was shot in again. Well there it is I'am ducking for cover so fire away!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 10:49:14 (EDT) 


Scott do you have one of the Mildot Masters? And if so are you bring it to S. M. next week. I would like to ckeck it out. I also got a set of photos for the the comp last May so you can get the ones you need to replace for the the ones you sent out for that article. See you at S. M. LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi us>
MI USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 10:52:40 (EDT) 
Andrew: I doubt the problem is with the scope bases! I have seen MANY rifles from MANY manufacturers with this lopsided screw hole condition. The holes look aligned until you mount a base or spec them out. I secretly think this is why the Redfield base has become so popular! You can adjust for a lot of receiver errors with it. BUT not twist. I have seen bases twisted due to the way the holes were drilled into the receiver.

Take heart though. If you are determined to keep your rifle, a good smith can fix the problem by using a one piece base. One explained it to me but I'd be hard pressed to pass the knowledge along. Al?

Oh yeay, before I forget, I left out a part in the troubleshooting piece. Reinstall the action in the stock, torque to spec. Install the scope mounts and scope. Remove the rear action screw. Does the action move or pop out at the rear? A good strong scope base can stress an action if the scope mounting holes in the receiver are not true OR if the base is not true. Check 'em both.

LeMay: Nope. I do not have a mil-dot master. Till someone sends me on out of the goodness of their heart (HINT HINT), I will not be getting one. I am tapped out. I had to buy another case of Fed GM for next week.

JB: Pat, your not starting a fire storm. JB is pretty harmless to a bore and may even assist polishing it, but no one should use it for regular daily cleaning. I use it about every 50 to 100 rounds. Guys who moly really need it to remove the hard carbon rings that can form near the chamber if they are slacking in their regular cleaning and relying on moly to keep things tidy.

TorF: Yes Sir! Many thanks. I got it yesterday. Interesting magazines!

Hey Torsten! How about emailing me an English translation of Der Panzer Lied (Lied der Panzertruppen)?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 11:49:13 (EDT) 


A recap may be in order on the subject of loading. For those of you having problems getting a rifle to shoot with handloads, Keep in mind that especially with the .308, your most accuracte load is generally not going to be your fastest one. Other cartridges will exhibit this frustrating tendency also. I had one .308 that would literally punch a single hole @ 2450 fps muzzle V, but would go to around an inch at the velocity I wanted (2620 fps)! Same with a .300 win mag I had. So if you are loading a Match King bullet to max, you need to start backing off and seeing what happens. I try to settle for a good compromise. I'll give up a little accuracy (but not much) for a velocity that will reflect the come-up/windage data I want. Having a bullet that will group in the .2s is useless if it is only putzing along at 2300 fps! Also, if you are having fouling problems, start reassesing the velocity issue. It may be way too high.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 12:04:19 (EDT) 
Scott Yes I know how that go's I just got done loading up 3000 rounds of 308 for the next 2 weeks. LeMay OUT
LeMay
MI USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 13:23:43 (EDT) 
To all: I'll be out of the loop for two weeks. Have fun, shoot straight, and always remember, it if don't shoot well, it can always substitute as a tent peg!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 13:51:42 (EDT) 
Torsten ( and any other takers ),

back on August 11, 1998 at 14:53:14, you made the following statement about annealing:
"Then get the old Butane torch and heat the case necks, but do NOT dump them in the water !
Let them cool and you have soft necks again ready for sizing."

Now this is contrary to almost all I've seen on annealing. Normally one is advised to DUMP them into the water - very seldom the opposite. Why would you NOT want to dump the brass? I must say, I am no expert, and have never done this yet.
From the little bit I learnt about metallurgy I seem to remember that if you let the material being heat-treated cool down by itself you are not really achieving anything - the molecules will just re-arrange themselves as they were before. That is unless you place them under some kind of force while cooling down - like a magnetic field to align them.
If one dumps them into the water, or cools them down by any other means other than normal subjection to room temperature, only then does one get a real change in the molecular structure. This happens because the structure is "frozen" as it was at that specific temperature before you dumped it. Or are those second year material strengths courses I did 15 years ago faded from memory too much? Or did the wrong stuff stick in memory? This wasn't my favourite subject, although I have often had thoughts of kicking my own butt for that!

Gooch,
on August 11, 1998 at 19:14:26, you said:
"Had a good posting written up twice and my AOL went tits up twice. Any good suggestions on another internet service!!"
I've seen this statement more than once here on the Roster. One solution for this would be to write your entry in a Word Processor like Russ, where one could also use the spell-checker ( Scott - HINT! HINT! HINT! :-) ) That way you can save it and just cut-and-paste again into the Roster.

Oh yes, almost forgot: SPR
It is only being released here on September 18 - I will HAVE to go see it. Haven't been to the movies for quite a long time. Not sure if I should take the wife along - 6 months pregnant. It might be too much for her! I think it will upset her too much. ( And of course then she can't see me cry - as that seems to be the order of the day :-) )

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, GAUTENG, RSA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:10:21 (EDT) 


To Torsten: Thanks for the heads up! I’m securely entrenched in my bunker, deep within Chateau Taylor. The parapets have been well stocked, too. You realize, of course, when you send me a sample of said item, I’m going to have to do a review of said item on a type of firearm I’ve already beleaguered here on the Duty Roster. (( sigh )) On the Nauga pup -- be careful what you feed it. They have a very sensitive diet until they’ve reached their first year. It is also around this time that their hide becomes shiny and more luxurious.

To TorF: Regarding the long archery shot, all I can say is that it must have been a no-wind day. Or... maybe it was a “thin-wind” day. Hmmm.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:21:47 (EDT) 


Greetings from Middle Clintonia - Where the women are loose and the morals are looser.

Pat - On the ghillie,

1) Use a boonie hat with a wad of netting long enough to drape over the scope of the rifle when in firing position. Go for the Jon Bon Jovi look. (Ask Junior he'll know what I'm talking about. For us old guys it's the Farrah Fawcett look.)

2) Use a two piece set of BDU's for the uniform.

3) For a school ghillie it is okay to sew the netting on the back of the uniform and tie the burlap into the net. Make sure that the burlap isn't long enough to get caught up under your body when crawling. Have someone put the suit on then lay on thier belly, then trim around it.

4) Color is to personal taste, I prefer a mauve top, chartruse bottom and, if it after labor day, a tasteful pair of robins egg blue pumps with a matching drag bag. Seriously, the color is dependent upon the prevelent vegetation in the AO. Try to keep the artifical colors a tad light and darken it with NATURAL VEGETATION to match the area. Mix the colors up, don't look like a mono colored chewbacka!

5) Pad the knees and elbows, move the shirt pockets to the side/sleeves and you are on the way. The first ghillie is an experiment, the second is better and after three of four you figure it out.

6) It is hard to build one wrong! You and Junior are smart so sit down, plan it, then execute!

Tell junior to work on range estimation with the mil dots.

Sniff!!! A new generation of snipers.....I'm gonna ....cry.... hold me Rick. Tell me we're not old and forgotten....

I'm gonna eat a twinkie and lift my spirits...

Gooch is out.

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:40:46 (EDT) 


Gooch, who is Jon Bon Jovi? and what do you guys see in Farrah Fawcett? she is so old...

Marius, The story I got on annealing case mouths is if you heat them up then rapidly cool them by quenching in water or oil you will actually do the opposite of what you want and make them hard and brittle.

so is there any verdict on bipods? I sure like the design of the Parker Hale, but if it wobbles...

gee I can't hardly wait, only three more years until McMillan delivers my A3
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:57:26 (EDT) 


Ladies (and Gentlemen): I too will be off-line for the next one to two weeks. I've got some shooting to do.

Gooch: The "women are loose"? Time to rebarrel; swap out the lightweight sporter for a target barrel. Also, consider adding a couple of inches. That ought to "tighten up" your groups, and you'll find you'll be able to maintain the kind of "accuracy" you desire much, much longer than before!!!

In the alternative, hold hard and squeeze!

Bain out.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:16:44 (EDT) 


To all,
Can someone give any credence (or otherwise) to the rumour that synthetic stocks damage hearing by transmitting recoil
to the inner ear via the skeleton?

Does anyone with a Leupold Mark 4 M3 have anything positive
or negative to say about it? I plan to buy one but down under these items are expensive. I would appreciate any first hand field based comments.

Does anyone else out there find the Remington M700 PSS DM
magazine less than positive to lock in?

cheers all

Darryl Todd
wa Australia - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:44:16 (EDT) 


Gooch - Remember McArthur, we'll "just fade away". Not a bad description of a ghillie suit for an NG type guy.

Add to those thoughts on the Ghillie Suit - Once you think you have enough burlap on your ghillie, remove atleast half of it! Also, rather use knee and elbow pads when you think you may need protection rather than filling up the uniform with padding. With padding and canvas that sucker is stiff and hard to move around in as well as pack. I rather question a sniper that has to crawl so much that he needs all that protection in the first place. In most areas a sniper can use defilade to his advantage and move in a less tiring manner. Once the sniper is in worm's eye view mode, his route selection is very limited. On the burlap color, recommend that you buy natural color sold in most WAL MARTs. This color is very light but has the advantage of allowing for such upgrades as soaking in strong coffee and tea to give a very natural color. Other natural colors can be produced by boiling different materails and soaking the burlap. WATCH your skin! Can take awhile to get rid of the color. Primary camo on the ghillie is natural materails that are changed with the movement.

Parker Hale Bipod - You're paying too much for the name and they are not stable. Spend the money on the short cant adjustable Harris Bipod. Just remember, any bipod must be in a neutral position to shoot accurately. Tension fore or aft will cause a shift in recoil impulse. This will open up your group and once your group becomes bigger than your target, you will miss the target sooner or later. Usually when you need to hit it the most.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:54:35 (EDT) 


Darryl - Leupold M3, Good TACTICAL SCOPE however you look at it. Unless you are needing 1/4 moa adjustments.

Mistah Bain Sah!! You have offended my honah!! I'll see you in court sah!! Don't you know that snipers spend long hours penitrating the bush, in the prone position, with large barrelled weapons to shoot hot loads!!!

Hurrumph!!!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:11:42 (EDT) 


To Darryl: Why? Why did you double post? WHY? Is this an Australian vendetta? What's the deal??? Here it is: I have to go into FTP; transfer (wait for eternity) the Roster to my machine. Open it up. Remove the OFFENDING DOUBLE, TRIPLE, OR QUADRUPLE POST! Save it. Transfer it back (wait another !#%@# eternity). Reload it from the Internet, to double check and make sure it works (wait yet ANOTHER !#%@#@#$ eternity!!!).

In short, I'm about ready to make it open season on any of you guys who HAVE MAJOR BRAIN DUMPS AND SUBMIT DOUBLE POSTS! Maybe your colleagues would enjoy a little "live" game, eh?

One month. Can we go ONE MONTH without some !#%# idiot screwing up and double posting??? IS THAT TOO !#%@# MUCH TO ASK???!!! Jesus H. Christ!!! (R. Lee Ermey style)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:15:59 (EDT) 



Can you guys believe the statement Rick made!

Not bad for a NG guy?!

I'll have you know that when You were in Vietnam sleeping in the mud and lancing cysts I was watching Star Trek and delivering papers!

Just because I think I'm hot shit doesn't mean I'm not!!!

You think that experience means everything don't you?

Wait, this post didn't go well. Uhh....Wait...

You and Bain are plotting aren't you! I'll show you, I'll turn off my monitor...

tyhri now yoi canr se3 mi

fuuch out.
They call me Mistah Gooch! <kdgooch@aol.com>
Grrwood, ARAR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:38:53 (EDT) 


Bain: Have fun!!!!!!

Torsten: Stop sending the babes, 450 is too much for an old guy like me!

Russ: Gonna call when I send this......

All: Source for GOOD 7.62X51 military ammo for a young-un that just bought an M1A, (I'm so proud I could bust)!

Gooch: Yer right about the insect look on those binocs, have some M-22s and they sure do look purty when ya see them at night!

It seems that all of the LE ammo I got shoots low, (the Hornady TAP stuff). Is it me or has anyone else noticed this? Depity Dave???????
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Yonder, USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:53:46 (EDT) 


Gentlemen, Gentlemen: Have we leave of our senses again!!! Must be that gol-dang full moon again! And they call us all lunatics! Damn Look out side, It really is a full moon tonite and it affected Mistah Gooch. Call those men with the butterfly nets!!

About your Leopold Mk 3 scope. One of the best in the world. Perfect tracabillity, and crystal clear. Well worth the dinars and shekels and geld you spend for it. Oh go ahead go for it, You won't regret it. You may after your wife finds out, but what the hell, she'll find some other reason to get pissed at you, so go ahead and get it and tell her "AL" said it was OK. (Just don't give her my address.)

Russ: Lets catch that perp who keeps on double posting and bolt his scrotum to and oak chair. Sorry, its just the full moon!

al
 

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Starry Starry NIght, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:17:57 (EDT) 


And what about those Parker Style bipods. Are they the same as the Versa Pods which you can order from McMillan. You are right about the stableness of the Harris and I like mine a lot. Are the Versa Pods that much better?

Darryl: We would answer your question about hearing loss, but we can't hear you!

And Gooch: Oh what a man!!!! Only to be able to find someone like you with robin egg blue pumps in the woods. Tee-hee-hee, goodness, goodness, I say with a limp wrist.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Starry Starry Night #2 in Moon Drenched, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:32:58 (EDT) 


Gooch - Did I really say that? Must be Al's Full Moon effect! AL are you causeing this?

Love that M3A!! Can't think of a single reason, other than can't afford, not to own that scope. Course I could be just a little prejudiced towards that scope!

Al - I really don't know about the Versa Pod. Never used it or even seen it in real life. The only fault I have had with the Harris is a few have broken at the head where it mates with the fore stock. Of course this could be ham fisted military types causing this to occur.

Darryl - Don't know about hearing loss with syn stocks. I do know that when I retired from the military I was authorized free hearing aids. Don't know if shooting syn stocks caused it or if being flung through the air from a few close proximity explosions caused it.

Russ - Your prozac man your prozac!!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:59:05 (EDT) 


Gooch: Were you looking for a supply source for Hornady TAP ammo?
Mike O'Brien <atrus@coffey.com>
Middle of Nowhere, WY USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 00:05:49 (EDT) 
To Mister Tibbs... er, uh... Mistah Gooch: Which is your favorite Star Trek episode? When Spock beats the crap out of his in-room monitor/communicator? When Kirk fires, hires, then re-fires Mr. Scott? Or what about when Kirk met Lizardman? (The latter is how I first learned to make dynamite -- who says television isn't educational?)

To Rick: I "did" take my Prozac. You should see me on the days I forget. Remind me to tell you about the time I was riding my motorcycle, and some assinine female type cut me off with her pickup truck, and I had to do some very quick and fancy weight distribution on the left foot peg, and then I caught up to her at the next stoplight, and started to explain, rather loudly, the error of her ways, and she rolled up her window, thinking that she could avoid listening to me, and I took my fist and... well, um... yeah... we'll get drunk and I'll tell you all about it. Honestly, I'm MUCH calmer now.

On bipods: If you're a fan of the Parker-Hale model, but not a fan of the price, allow me to recommend the Chinese, made-with-prison-labor M-85 from Model One Imports. At $60 or so (I bought two of them at the Indy 1500 gunshow earlier this year), they're DARN sturdy, and you're not paying for the price. Hey, you KNOW they're made right, because the hired help gets executed if they screw up. Another recommendation from Scott, for which I'm glad. Let's see... to date, he's turned me onto B&L Elite 4000 scopes, M-85 bipods, and most recently the Nikon 4x scope. What a swell guy!!!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 02:48:37 (EDT) 


Mike: It was Russell Taylor that was looking for TAP, I gave him the info but he won't listen, you try.....

Gooch: Robins egg blue pumps, I knew the Murines were funny but really........

Al: Scrotum nailed to a chair, my kind of guy....

Russ: Are ya awake???????

Rick: Gonna need ya to e-mail me again about building gillie suits, I cleaned out my files and you were in them, (I'm old ya know)!!!!
 

Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Sunny SC, USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 09:44:33 (EDT) 


Russ: You have to stop beating around the bush,tell us how you really feel about double posts !Don't hold back !

How's the .338/.378 coming along ?Has your load development produced satisfactory results so far ?Is the H50BMG powder producing the velocity you are looking for ?

By the way,I ordered a Richard's Microfit Benchmark stock for my 6.5 x 55mm project.I didn't mind the look of the Tactical model but thought the latter would be more versatile for hunting/target shooting.

Several of my shooting friends have the Wildcat thumb hole sporter model.Up til then I'd never heard of them before.The laminate on their stocks is so attractive I just knew I had to have one.

I guess you could say that Richard's is probably one of those companies that although they build great product,their name recognition isn't as widely known as some of their competitors.

Gooch: STOP beating around the bush !Hey,just remember its o.k. to fire hot loads as long as your not firing any blanks.I understand that this may cause a shortened barrell life.By the way,all you Snipers out there better make sure that your triggers are adjusted properly or you might have an accidental discharge !
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 10:37:00 (EDT) 


On the blue pumps. It not after labor day yet!!! Go with the Off-white flats!! Earth tones are in as are the smaller, faster calibers (22-243 etc). After labor day with the advent of larger game seasons, I suggest the larger calibers, oh 30-06 and the like. Facial cammy this year I tried to stay with the cammo compact, but the max factor line is intriguing.

On bipods - I concur with sister Boucher on the short Harris with the built in tiltability. I use the standard issue Harris w/o tiltability and do just fine. Takes only a second to adjsut legs or dig, dig, dig one in a tiny bit in the dirt.

Ricky told me a story about him, a friend of his and a bidet over in Saudi. Tsk tsk ricky. It'll be puiblished inthe next Cosmo.

Gooch out and feeling manly today.

Sometimes this SC is just too much fun!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Banjo twang!, Soowee! USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 11:33:05 (EDT) 


Say Hey.
Lot of info. on this page but it seems to fall into two areas. Stuff I can't afford and subjects of interest for the 2% of shooters in the world who can dope the wind by eye or satalite at 1600yrds.

If you want to try racing cars do you sell the kids and buy an INDY car? NO! Enter the Savage question. $300 barrel,use a $300 scope=$600 test bed. Try it, if you like it then step up but not till you are equal or better the the equipment.

If we fail to learn from history we are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes. Well sorta. Make it Simple, trained people to use the trick stuff are hard to come by in protracted conflict. I could not pick up a fallen mans M41/300 zoomer and hit the horizon as well as my battle gun could with all the details you need to know. Enter the history part. #4T Enfield, when zeroed ant Tommy could twist the well placed and marked knobs, yes top and left just like you pay extra for on Leupold's Mk.X-25X75X80mm GPS, and then hit some thing. Made of brass sewer pipe this same scope on the L42A1 has ranging klick up that actualy work even for me to 800yrds. Actually it works best out to 400 but then you get your Robar 50 years old and do better.

The point befor I get too much windage here. Is there any body else out there who shoots these older guns and would like to chat about the or are we doomed to bench race imaginary or dream guns.

Lets start here.
1. G-43/Zf4, I have a shot drift on the 3rd. shot. Seems to put two on the aim point the pull the last 2'' ridht. Any comments or ideas on this. 1960's steel case ammo.

2.Sav.110FP/ART-MPC with the standard stock when draged over hill and dale can put two cold shots in the hole at 200yrds but throws the next two high right about 2'' but in the same hole? Roll my own for this one,IMR4064 etc.

3.Mosi 91/30PU, now this one is fun, a Sharp Shooters gun at best, can hit the bottom of a soda can at 100yrs with yellow tip surplus 180g bullets but when I roll 148g fmj .310 bullets in Lapua brass the hills are safe? Any help here?

I personaly have some 400yrd confirmed shots but I am in no way a marksman or even a target shooter. This is for fun and sadly at a time in my life when I start to hit stuff my hair keeps falling out and getting in the way.

MJ

Monterey Jack <MontereyJack@kmenterprises,com>
Calif. USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 13:47:30 (EDT) 


Gramps,

I haven't tried the Hornady TAP yet, But, you may want to consider that it's not that it shoots low, what happens when you get OLD is it's hard to keep it up.

Get more rest and take your viagra.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Just leaving for some dove hunting in, Restful Weest Virginia USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 16:58:49 (EDT) 


I'm new to Moly bullets and hoping for data for 175 sierra BTHP to start with
Mike Miller <DMMDNLN@AOL>
Berkeley, Calif USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 19:20:30 (EDT) 
To Jeff B: I'm having this love/hate thing with my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. I'd "love" to finish it, but I "hate" working on my gunsmith's truck -- a 1967 Dodge Power Wagon -- which is "the arrangement." He does my gunsmithing, I do work on his truck. I hate trucks. So, my motivation isn't quite into the project. Anyway, the pillars are cut (brass valve guides) and just need epoxied into the stock. Bedding is the only thing left to do. Then, it's just a matter of mounting the scope and starting load development. (I keep having recurring visions of The Guns of Navarone... you know, those guys with the white hoods, gloves, and goggles? Bad... BAD... got to put such things out of my mind.) Believe me, when I get it together, and if it doesn't blow up (which means me with it), you guys will be the first to know. Load data will be included.

Glad you ordered the Richards stock. I actually ordered the Tactical... they delivered a Culbertson. I didn't notice for two months (during which time I'd pretty well "bought" the thing, by working on the stock). Still, in hindsight... for "this" gun... I'm glad I have the stock that I do. I'll be including it in my upcoming stock review. You guys who don't mind a little work with sandpaper, you're missing the untold deal of the year by not getting a Richards stock. When you see my stock (I'll include photos with my article), you're going to say... "He only paid $99 for that stock?!" Oh, and he delivers a bit sooner (i.e., this century) than does McMillan. Not knocking McMillan on their product, though... I love their stocks... but I just LOVE a laminated stock -- they're strong AND beautiful.

No, Jeff... Richards is a small, unheard-of company. Good. Keeps their deliveries pretty well on time. Shhhhh... don't tell anyone else about them, okay?

On bipods: I notice a (partial) picture of my M-85 bipods on the current Precision Shooting magazine. Concerning a "neutral" firing position (Rick?) with bipods, how do you know you're at the same "neutral" position for each shot? I'm not trying to be silly, but really, how do you know -- shot to shot -- that you're at top-dead-center for each shot? Argh! This consistency stuff can drive a guy nuts!

To Monterey Jack: I shoot the old stuff (well, custom guns built on "old" actions). They're cheap, but they work. On the "test bed" idea. Of course, "I" like it... but you'll be assaulted for it because, oh gee, it's not a REMINGTON action -- that is, it isn't "round" -- and you can't throw the thing on a lathe and true the thing up. Shame, shame. How could you even SUGGEST a Savage?!!! (Hey, I've done it on two Savages, and it works for ME! As always, your mileage may vary.) On your 110FP Tactical load -- just "MY" two cents, but... IMR 4064 shot like ca-ca in mine. What other powders did you try? If you haven't done "serious" work with Varget and N-140, give them a try. You might see good things happen with 43.0 grains of Varget or 41.0 grains of N-140 (with Sierra 168 Match Kings). In general, we're not a "benchrest" crowd here. Many of us are strapped for cash and look for inexpensive ways to outshoot the big boys. We all have different income levels, and we're all interested in what is working for the other guy. So jump in and contribute. "Sin boldly, for Grace is abundant."

To Mike Miller: You can hope all you want, Mike, but until you tell us if you're using your 175s in a .308 Winchester, .300 Winchester Magnum, or a .30-06 Springfield, and what the barrel length is, and how far you plan on shooting... well, you're probably not going to get much "specific" help. Let us know what you're using and we'll try to help you. Sure, I could presume you're using your moly-coated 175s in a .308 Winchester out to 1,000 yards... but I'd rather hear exactly what your situation is.

To all: I already knew of Roger Johnston's demise, but Dave Brennan wrote a fairly nice obituary in the current issue of PS. I'd spoken to Roger on a couple of occasions, over the phone. Nice guy. He could easily run your phone bill up, but you never seemed to mind because he was so enjoyable to talk to. He was an easy-spoken man, very intelligent, and very friendly.

Update on the ".35 Bear Buster" -- I now have 50 rounds of shoulder-breaking .35 Bear Buster rounds, ready to run through the rifle; 53.0 grains of AA 2520 under a Sierra .35 caliber 225-grain Game King in a .444 Marlin case necked down to .35 caliber. The entire rifle weighs, I'm guessing, 7.5 pounds, including scope. Don't try this at home, kiddies. Total cost for the Enfield #4 Mk 1 action, Ramline stock, Wilson (Midway) barrel, Nikon 4x scope, and Leupold mounts and base: about $240. Gunsmithing was free (refer to truck comment earlier). Load data should ("should") mimic .35 Whelen loads. Stay tuned.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 03:06:34 (EDT) 


Gooch: cammo
What a brave man you are. Thanks to you I am also willing to step out of the closet. One of my favorite little tricks is the liberal use of a Avon product called "Skin so Soft" It is strong enough for a man but made for a woman. Works great as mosquito repelant. I like to think
when the aroma goes downwind and hits enemy noses that split second of confusion gives me the edge I need!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 04:26:25 (EDT) 
To Jeff B. (again): Here's an article written by Dan Lilja in which he tests the relationship between barrel lengths and velocities using a .338/378 Weatherby Magnum.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 06:06:24 (EDT) 
Depity Dave: You have now taken Gooch's title of mean man, (since he's so in touch with his feminine side now), but be warned, incoming from the teenaged bride!!!!!!!

Russ: Title of your last e-mail??????? I resemble that remark.......

Out here and off to bed!!!!!!!
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Viagra City, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 08:33:12 (EDT) 


To Monterey Jack: nagant
I have a m-39 Finnish nagant. The first load I tried was the 174 .311 Sierra matchking and imr4895 powder in lapua cases with winchester primers muzzle vel. was 2600 f.p.s. This load gives me consistent 3/4 m.o.a. from a clean barrel. I paid $85 for this rifle.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 09:14:16 (EDT) 
Say Hey
Russell your Savage will stand the test and save the bucks too. The only thing that I would change would be to get the short action. Hey! Thats only a $360 upgrade and I have several people who would buy my long action as they are sure it's been tricked out nomater how many times I tell them it's stock.

Steve lots of good deals on M-39's, if Star Line get some brass out soon??? I'm getting pulled 147g Bulgarian bullets for $8 per. 100, at .310'' they also work in .303 Enfields.

So? Who else is shooting G-43/Zf4's?? The 8mm has a great history in sharpshooting.

MJ
Monterey Jack <montereyjack@kmenterprises>
Prundale, Calif. USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 11:54:06 (EDT) 


Russ: I read the article a short time ago.I thought it was a great piece.I was impressed that the .338/.378 could achieve what I consider fantatic velocities with the 300 gr. Sierra Match King.

Can you imagine slugging around a shouder fired weapon with abarrell length between 35"-42" ? Definitely a bench gun if I've ever heard of one !
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 12:07:17 (EDT) 


Gooch,
I'am down at the office so of course I had to check out the roster. Thanks for the info on the Ghillie. I must say I'am surprised to know that you have a tender side and that your such a fashon expert!! I do love the Farrah look, these guys need to see the Play Boy issue from about 20 years ago WOW...Now there was a woman!!

Darryl,
If you dont want to lay out the bucks for the MK-4 the new 3.5X10 Long Range is a good alternative for about $400 less. I have one and its great!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 13:52:49 (EDT) 


To Monterey Jack: I don’t see any advantage, “personally,” in going to a shorter action just for the sake of going to a shorter action. My shooting isn’t good enough to “appreciate” whatever advantage I’d get from an action that flexed less. As for cycling time... if a micro-tenth of a second is going to save my life in a confrontation -- well, something has already gone DRASTICALLY wrong! However, if it was today, and I was in the market for another rifle from Savage, I’d probably go with a short-action.

On the Mosin-Nagant: Surgical secret of the century (Finnish models, that is).

To Jeff: I agree with you. However, I wish I’d have gone with a 32-inch barrel instead of a 30-inch. Oh, well... I’ll make do. As for carrying around the heavy stuff (something I know about, trust me), Butler Creek makes a version of sling that is like a “shock absorber” -- I have one on Bwana, my heavy-barreled .416 Remington Magnum... which, oh by the way, is in a laminated Richards thumbhole stock.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 19:18:03 (EDT) 



OK so I forgot some important info. sorry about that. Lets try again. Help with 308 win, in once fired Fed brass, 175 Sierra Molly coated. Who has loaded them. What powder to use. O.A.L.. I have alot of IMR4895 but have had little luck with 175's non molly so why bother with molly with this powder. It sure works great with 168's. I have Varget, and IMR 4064 on hand and looking for a load to shoot in, for both my M14 and M24. Also is it my imagination or has Rem's quality gone to the dogs. Last years PSS had a bad bbl. This years has a bad trigger not heavy pull but bad! Thanks for any and all help
Mike Miller <DMMDNLN>
USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 20:25:37 (EDT) 
From his hide Sarge says:

OK some of you wanted to know how the search for a "hunting" load with the Sierra 165 gr GameKing for my 110FP went. Well here goes:
As per my exalted Editor-in-Chief, who, when it comes to 110FP's hasn't steered me wrong yet, I bought some Accurate Arms AA2520. The Sierra 4th edition Reloading Manual lists this powder at 43.5 grains as their load of choice for hunting with the 165GK. Being prudent I started my loads at 41.5 then 42.0,42.5,43 and 43.5. At 100yds the 42.0 shot almost as well, I won't argue, as any of my handloaded match rounds! 5 shot group was right at 0.73", as measured with calipers, outside edge to outside edge. NOT BAD for a "hunting" round! Using my Mildot Master and the ballistic table I have for my 168gr match loads (next range session I'll chrono this load and get the correct ballistic table printed up)I dialed in and proceded to decimate the soda can population, that someone had left, at 200yds. Not to shabby! This load is a definate "keeper"!

Sarge slips back to his hide and waits.

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 20:55:07 (EDT) 


Russ - You hit it with the consistency thing. Do the same each time, shot after shot. It is more of a feel than anything else. I "pull" the stock to my shoulder at the same time "pushing" with my toes. It is a habit and "feels" right when it comes together. It doesn't feel as if the weapon is trying to pull away from me or trying to push into to me on its own. Sorry I can't give you a better description, you know how all that touchy feely crap is hard to explain.

GOOCH - Don't you dare relate that lie! It's all lies guys, don't believe that evil Gooch!

Reference recycled actions - Some of the best and most durable weapons are made on "old" actions. Never discount them. You would be doing yourself a great disservice. Myself I like the 03A4, Confederate, depends on what your tastes are and what you are used to. The Enfield was more popular due to less jamms and ease of maintenance. Only the Marines really liked the Springfield 03. The Army used mostly the Enfields. As far as the Nagant goes, it is still seeing action as a sniper rifle in many parts of todays world and to under estimate it's accuracy is a one way ticket home in a body bag. The carbine model is NOT a fun gun to shoot though!

Gramps - Did you say you lost that babbling on the Ghillie Suit? I'll have to sit down and write one on a word processor so you can save it to a regular file. What do you use on your computer?

Hold hard guys or it will be a long night!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:21:29 (EDT) 


I have a problem: I was shooting my AR-15, when one of the shells became a dud. The bolt carrier is stuck in the stock and the bolt assembly is still locked around the shell in the throat of the barrel. I cannot get the bolt carrier to come out of the stock nor will the T-handle pull the bolt carrier back. Open to any suggestions before I have to pay a visit to the gunsmith and PAY him to fix it.

P.S. Please Help
Pickett <PHarris168@aol.com>
lost in the hills of, TN USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:54:41 (EDT) 


I have fixed my AR-15 problem. Thanks for the quick responses.
Pickett <PHarris168@aol.com>
hills of , TN USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 22:23:49 (EDT) 
Depity Dave: Are ya alright after the incoming?

Rick: Check e-mail......

Torsten: Got walker, paid many $$$$$$$$$$ under the table to customs for it, it had better be worth it!!!!!!! :-)

Russ: DS or SH??????? Your call.......

Bain: I think I sent you e-mail???????

Gooch: Need some of that skin stuff, what's the price????

Out here

Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Over Yonder, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 23:08:13 (EDT) 


Thanks for putting such relevant info in one place. Way down here I have to rely on any info I can find to stay up to date. I am a firearms instructor for the NZ Police and especially interested in long range shooting. I would appreciate any info on Law Enforcement Sniper/Counter Sniper training. Thanks
Dave JONES <splat@ihug.co.nz>
Wellington, New Zealand - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 23:24:36 (EDT) 
Mike Miller: For 175gr molyed MKs, I've gotten excellent results with VV N140, and N540. You mentioned having an M-24. Is the barrel 11.2 twist? I'll assume so.

Anyway, I would start w/ 43.0 gr of N140 and increase in 0.5gr increments up to 44.5gr. This is close to the edge if you look at the literature, however, moly's presence is supposed to decrease pressure, so an increase in charge wt. is necess. to recapture any velocity loss. I've gone to 44.5 w/ N140 and 540 and seen no signs whatsoever of high pressure (ie. primer flattening or cratering).

Also, bullet seating depth is very important. For some reason, any Sierra match bullets I've ever worked w/ have given best accuracy when seated 0.010 inches off the lans. That's been the case with .308, 300WM, and w/ 6.5/08. 190, 175, 168, 155, in .30 cal. and 140, 142 in 6.5mm. ALL work at 0.010 in. off lans.

Also, you mentioned 4895 as one of your powders. Is it Hogdon or IMR. Try 41.0 or 42.0gr w/ 4895. And, try VV N135 (41.0gr ) w/ either the 168s or 175s and see what happens. Its burn rate is very close to the 4895s.

The N140 and 135 meters pretty well, too.

Darryl: I agree four thousand percent w/ Pat about one of Leupold's LR scopes. I just got one recently and it's like any of Leupold's scopes. In a word.. magnificent !! Thing is, Mk4 M3 is , well, Al already said it. Either way you can't lose, really.

To All: Seems like every time I read in the Roster, I get more psyched up about tactical/sniper/field shooting. I'm new at this but what I've done so far, I've loved. And so far means: 1. Educate myself. Read, read, read. Precision Shooting, Tactical Shooter...you know.
2. Learning to handload ammo to fit a particular rifle. Great fun.
3. Got a couple of bolt guns and shoot them whenever I can (not nearly as much as I'd like, naturally).
4. Shot in my very first tactical match approx. 3 weeks ago. No. 2 is coming up in 2 weeks.
5. I get to spend time with Hook Boutin. That's like Santa Clause and God rolled into one.. great man.

So, that's where this little moly huffing, moe-foe sits amidst the spinning spiritual vortex that is, well, how should one say it-- shootin' at thangs wif uh fat barrelled gun thet's fer away..

Now, I read about ghillie suit helpful hints, opinions about binocs, articles about equipment, reviews about training facilities, and other, I'll call it, snipercountry-related things, and I want to learn and do other stuff. You know, not only learn to be a marksman, but participate in the other aspects of this craft.

So, somebody point me at another aspect of this to look into. Am I making any sense? Or is this just a touch of sleep deprivation psychosis rearing its ugly little head?

Hey, guys, all this stuff is fascinating, really. And I am hungry to learn more. That's all.

Bedtime, boys and girls..
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Cordite Buzz, Ga USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 01:39:20 (EDT) 


Hi !

I was in a reserve training exercise last weekend and saw some new sniping gear.

The Finnish Army has now officially acquired Sako TRG-41 sniping rifles in 338 Lapua Magnum. This rifle had the military acceptance marks (A "Tower" stamped all over the parts and supplies) and a military log book for the amount of rounds that have been shot trough the barrel.

The scope was a Leupold Mark 4 M3 x10 with A 338LM-specific cam !!! The cam was graduated out to 1200 meters. I think that they will use mildots out to 1500 meters. (I haven´t calculated whether this is possible with the ammo, but 1200 meters seem to be a little bit short range for 338 LM.)-> If there is enough money, any ammuniton specific cam for M3 can be had. Most probably cams for the 308/175 ammo will arrive soon. Another question is whether Leupold will sell them to civilians. In a PC-world this is not 100% sure which is too bad.

The rifle had a blackened barrel, but I don´t know whether it was a molybden or stainless barrel. Probably molybden. Other additions were a muzzle brake with threads for a suppressor (Army has not chosen a model yet, most probably it will be a BR-Tuote´s reflex-suppressor). A Parker-Hale -type bipod is included as are emergency sights. This model had that version of sights that are not attached to the rifle but are in the pocket of the shooter, or in the field 600 meters behind you :-). Too bad as there is another model available from Sako that is attached to the rifle and which can be folded up quickly.

A night-vision that clamps in front of the rifle is available too, the model is unknown to me, but the old TAK-85, Sniping Rifle Model 85 uses a Simrad 250 add-on.

Received my Nightforce 5.5-22x56 scope with mil-dots last week. It really is HUGE, weighs around two pounds, is 19.5 inches long, and is 2.72 inches thick at the objective. I think that Butler Creek doesn´t produce their flip-up scope covers for scopes with a O.D. larger than around 2.5 inches. What gives ? Where could I buy flip-up scope covers for this scope ? Any other suggestions ?

BTW I know this scope is not the bes