September 1998
 

H&K SL 6 & 7: Torf we have a gunsmith that works a lot on these and installs all sorts of barrels as well as good stocks. I´ll see if he has a catalog or something. Mail me your snail mail adrress and I´ll relay what I can find.

Bain: do you know anything about a Leupold Laser Rangefinder ? I have asked them via e mail several times and the answers suggest that they are working on something.
Maybe at the NASGW or SHOT ?

My BDU´s and gear are almost dry again after the weekend, time to pack my ruck for the next haul. Hey you Texans, send some sun to mossy green Germany !

Schlachtaxt drei Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 02:50:49 (EDT) 

Thanks again to all for your help in putting my rifle together.

Sandy
Sandy <shiftysand@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 07:54:45 (EDT) 

Russell,
Ok, OK,...No more will I use the "S" word in a negative manner, I don't want to take Gooch's "Evil" title away from him and I was raised to not pick on those who were less fortunate than us (Rem.700 owners) It was good hearing from you anyway. Take care and keep your powder dry!!

Pat <mrbullet>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 09:49:35 (EDT) 

To JimmyG: I see a few options for you. One, do nothing. There are some great loads for the .30-06 Springfield. (Hathcock's first-tour rifle was a Winchester 70 in .30-06 Springfield -- and "he" did okay with it!) It sounds like you haven't even done any load development yet, so don't get all depressed over (so far) "nothing." Second, and a bit more drastic, have a gunsmith remove the barrel and cut the chamber for .308 Winchester. You'll lose a minor amount of barrel length, but you'd have a rifle in .308 Winchester. As for the magazine... well, it's a long action, and Savage just blocks off the rear portion of the magazine well when they use long actions for short-action cartridges. Any gunsmith could do this for you or Savage could do it for you if you send them the rifle. (In fact, you could send them the rifle and "trade" barrels and have them modify the magazine well. I would think they would do this for you, especially if you haven't shot the barrel yet. It would probably be a minor cost.) Third, replace the barrel with a premium-grade barrel (and modify the magazine well). Really, though, work up some loads first (and don't give up too easily). Then, if all else fails, explore your other options. (And, "Mr. Bullet" gave you some good advice, also. Further, there's a nice "comparison" article on our Articles page, concerning the .308 vs. .30-06 debate.

As for optics, check back through all our Duty Roster Archives. You will find a LOT of scope recommendations. (One of these days, we're going to HAVE to develop a Sniper Country's Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page, I can see it coming.)

To Sandy: I believe the model Rick is referring to (I've seen it, and know exactly which one he's talking about) is the "Offshore Waterproof Binoculars." In my Jerry's catalog, their are a few different versions, but the "gee whiz" model is listed as "7x50mm w/Improved Compass," part number TASOS541, with a price of $177.50 (dealer).

To Pat: "LESS FORTUNATE???!!!" :-)

To Cory: Thanks for the confirmation on the binoculars (I saw your post just before I entered mine).
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:22:12 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:39:38 (EDT) 

Now, the up side of your chosen caliber is versatility. You have gobs. The -06 can shoot rounds weighing up to 220 grains or more. While this is not needed for a tactical rifle (depending on your philosophy), it gives you options the .308 does not. Try the 190 grain Match Kings. Good high BC and fair velocity. Best of all, you can tackle any north American game animal and not worry about being under gunned. In short, what you gave up in total accuracy you gained in total versatility. The .308 is so popular in part due to the fact that cases are so much more available today than the 06. Times change. In 1965 -06 brass was as cheap as a promise from Bill Clinton...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:25:52 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:44:03 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 16:00:19 (EDT) 

Here is a stumper, for me anyway, let me see how some of you answer this one! Is there a corelation(sp) between the amount of powder, in grains, used for one bullet weight, in grains and the same powder but a different bullet weight in grains? Example: I currently use(.308) 41 grs of N140 under a 168gr MatchKing and get D--- good groups. Now lets say I want to use a 165gr GameKing with the same powder. Is there some way, other than just plain "playing", to figure how much powder to use to get the same kind of accuracy I get with the MatchKings using the GameKing bullets. Is this totally confusing! Hope not! This should be a good mind exercise for those of you that are mathematically inclined and will keep me from using up a bunch of powder trying to figure this out!

Sarge goes back and waits
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 17:27:10 (EDT) 

Good Question, BAD Idea!!!!

Too many variables, too big a chance for a catistrophic failure and area 51 isn't far enough away.

Take Care!

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolla@access.mountain.net>
Back Home Again in, West Virginia USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 18:10:10 (EDT) 

M852 is the mil spec equivelent to Federal Gold medal match. It is easy to identify as the case has a knurling around the base, a headstamp that says "match" and a "hollow tip" projectile. If you are getting a lot fliers out of M852 it is probably you or the gun, not the ammo.

M118 and M80 are hard to tell apart out of the box. If you have two of each it is easy as the overall cartridge length of the M118 is slightly longer. (Longer bullet) If you pull a projectile and the bullet has a square base with 90 degree angles it is 146 grain M80 ball which is used as M14 ammunition or linked for 7.62 machine guns.

If it has a boat tail bullet (has an angled base, looks like a boat from the side) then it is M118. If it has a open tip bullet and a headstamp that says LR on it then you have the new M118 Long Range. Doubt if you have this stuff as it is very hard to get. Just ask Rick Boucher!

Did old white box M118 say "Match" on the head stamp boyz? Can't remember. I know it had LC and the year with no NATO crosshair symbol. M118 special ball has a little crosshair stamp which is supossed to mean it is a standard NATO load. (There is no such thing by the way. Ask me about the difference between Austrailian, Brit, Canadian and US 5.56 NATO ball sometimes.)

Some/most lots of M118 special ball are known for fliers. It was not made to match specs. M80 is supposed to have a certain "inaccuracy" built in as you don't want a M60 LMG to group real tight.

Anything else guys?

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:46:47 (EDT) 

Once again Gooch has stirred the shit!!!!

He is out of here!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EDT) 

Dave - To answer your question, I would never again buy another set of Steiners due to the cost and the low return on the cost. While you may "sense" a better quality in the Steiner over the Tasco, you probably wouldn't note a real difference. As I stated earlier, they have great clarity with very low abberation on the edges. Under normal circunstances you will NOT be disappointed. Under extended observation in low light situations, the Steiners will win due to a greater claity. Question, is that clarity worth the $600.00. I don't think so, but that is my opinion. Find someone that owns a pair and try them.

Gooch - I knew you'd answer sooner or later. I too do not remember if the M118 NM was head stamped Match. I could walk out to my "cache" and look, but that would spoil the memory games! If he is using Lot # 086-001 then he will be lucky to keep it within 4 moa due to a Lake City oops in powder throws. If he is shooting M80 ball, then he is ingesting ammo with a built in inaccuracy of 2 to 4 moa depending on the Lot #.

OK Boyz and Girlz (Alex, Bonnie, etc jump in!) Speaking of 7.62mm military ammo, what is the difference between regular linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo and "Overhead Fire" linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo? Gooch, you don't count. That dam theme song Saint Gooch is always talking about is now playing!!!

Gooch - Thanks for reminding me that the Marines sent me 4 cases of M118 SB instead of LR. Like I already have 27 cases of M852, what am I going to use the M118 SB for, the old M60?

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EDT) 

Scott-
What's the "Sports Flash Filter"? And how does someone get if they need to have it?

Ok, now it's time to laugh at the Air Force Guy. A friend gave me a military style sling and much to my chagrin I can't figure out how to use it. Any instuctions as to it's use would be much appreciated.

Russell-
You are going to love this Rember I e-mailed you that i was having trouble seeing through my scope at high power. Figured out why reading through the DR archives last night, when I mounted and postioned the scope it was at the lowest power setting and not the highest. Duh, Live and learn and don't repete the same mistakes, is what an old MSGT. told me long ago.

Thanks for all the info you gentlemen have provided me over the past couple of months. Work in a max. security prison and some days the only bright spot in an entire shift is knowing that Roster is waiting be read when i get home.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Learning Curve, of Bliss USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 22:42:32 (EDT) 

Sarge: To a certain degree I agree with Russ about the your powder dilema, but with you using Vit 140 powder in your 308 for the 165 and 168 grainers, should work quite well. I am a big user of Vit powder in my 308 and 223 and it is hard to beat. I have obtained tremendous accurate with both these bullets, but as you can expect, the 168 grainer out performed the Game King by a slight margin. But if you do unleash those moths in that rarely opened wallet to purchase some bullet poppin' propellant, try some of the Varget powder. As you can see, I'm starting to drift away from the Dupont IMR powders, although I still use the 4895, 4064 and 3031.

Big Al has left the building to curl up next to his bride.

Have a good evening Everybody!

AL
Al Ostapowcz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Terminating Hawgs with Extreme Prejudice in Bountiful, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:35:18 (EDT) 

The 700P DM went to the range yesterday and continued Shilen's shoot and clean break-in procedure. Fired two five shot and one three shot group. Consistent 2.5" patterns (I refuse to call this a group). When it was heavily fouled (right out of the box), it shot about half this size. The third wet patch after scrubbing comes out clear, but when I got home, I noticed that there is still quite a bit of copper at the muzzle. The bore seems to have an inordinate amount of tooling marks and the chamber scratches hell out of the cases. Haven't played with the torque on the action screws yet. Still 65 in\lbs. Plan to try this on the next trip. Shooting Federal Match. Any ideas on getting this thing to shoot sub-MOA? Already thinking about Accumax II. Who can do a good lap/square/rebarrel job with a reasonable turnaround? Not happy with the Big Green.

Now, where'd I put that hacksaw?
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, tx USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:51:53 (EDT) 

To:Dave,
These "nitwits" are right now as I type this putting before Gov. Wilson; SB1500 and AB2560 which can technically ban "ALL" firearms in the State of California. With the way it has been written, you could become a felon for having a penknife on a tiregauge. There is a message phone that you can call and leave a 30 second "Veto" message for Gov.Wilson (916)445-2841.

To:Scott a.k.a. xring
Sounds like good solid advice to me, thanks.
JimmyG <jimg@mlode.com>
CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 01:54:56 (EDT) 

A word about lenses. The quality of the majority of the lenses in most binoculars made today is high, most of the differences is in coatings applied to them. This is the result of major advances made by the Japanese in the method of producing lenses in quantity. The manufacturers most refered to in Duty Roster postings all have good lenses, differences will be in features such as range finding, compasses, mil-dots, etc., and the quality of the chassis of the binocular.

Compare brands you are interested in at the same time if possible, switching from one to the other, and do some extended viewing. Differences in viewing quality will become apparent quickly. If short term viewing is the only reqirement, then cost is not as much of a factor. However, if extended viewing is the norm (ie: glassing for a trophy) then get the best you can afford based on a "road test" of the binocular.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Republic of, MD USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 09:38:05 (EDT) 

al
Alexander Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:11:31 (EDT) 

Rick and Gooch: I am going to stick my neck out here and say I "think" that the white box M118 Match did in fact have Match stamped into the head. BUT as I have fired cases from all three rounds (M118 match, M852 Match and M118 Special Ball, named thusly as it was "Special", like Jerry's Kids) I can not be sure which cases I am looking at, beyond the M852 with the Knurled base! But I do have a plain, unknurled case with Match stamped on it. Cunundrums....
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:30:24 (EDT) 

Scott, I agree with your assessment of Bushnell, I've owned several of their products and tried others, and wasn't happy with any of them. I have one of their spotting scopes and am looking forward to replacing it with a Leupold or Kowa when budget allows.

Gooch: I think you made an assumption on Dave from Belfast's question. He wanted to know "what the military ball ammo for 7.62 is?" which may or may not mean US military. Perhaps if he's reading this he could clear up the matter?

JimmyG: Thanks for the info, I already have been making my calls as my local NRA group does a great job of keeping me informed.

Rick: You know, if you need to get rid of some of those M852 cases I think I could find a use for them... :)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:16:17 (EDT) 

Andrew, here are some simple things to try before doing anything drastic with your rifle. I have a hard time believing the rifle shoots as bad as you say but I suppose a real lemon can get out once in a while. First off, I assume the scope is adjusted for your eye and the reticle is crisp against the target. Next I have to assume you have a solid bench platform with which to test the rifle.

Now onto some quick trouble shooting. Check the barrel for contact with the stock by passing a piece of paper under the tube, Slide it all the way back to the receiver. It should not snag or bind.

Next, with a pencil, mark the postion of your action screws. Carry the mark to the trigger guard so that you can find the approximate position later. Remove your scope and mount.

With the rifle laying in a rest, top up, Loosen the rear screw. Does the action pop up? If not, Reinstall the screw. Remove both screws and remove the action form the stock. Do you notice any wear marks on the bedding? Is the bolt handle hitting the rear of the slot in the stock? You will see a small mark it is does? Relieve if necessary.

Mark the recoil lug with talcum powder or foot powder (field expeidient) and reinstall the action. Remove. Does the lug contact the rear of the slot in the aluminum bedding block?

If the action is not sprung from lousy bedding, reinstall the action. By the way, with my bedding totally out of whack, the rifle still shot sub moa, so you may have other problems. Bedding usually causes odd stringing, but not necessarily really large groups. Barrel contact will cause inconsistency as the rifle heats, but not necessarily large groups. Is your groups stringing? Which way?

If you have a two piece scope mount base, Install both bases. Lay a straight edge across the top of the front base to the top of the rear. Are they aligned? Is there a gap between the straight edge and the rear base when you apply pressure to the straight edge against the front base? Sight down the action from the rear of the rifle. Are the bases level? If not, the scope, once installed can stress the action and the action the scope. Not good.

If you have a one piece base, install the front screws only. is there a gap between the rear of the base and the top of the action? Again, if this condition exists, it can cause stress on action or scope. Remove front screws. Install rear screws. Recheck.

Barrel. GO buy some JB bore cleaner. Completely clean the bore as directed. Do it again. JB should remove all fouling and let you start fresh. Use JB between EACH round for the next twenty rounds. You want that bore naked so that the break in process can smooth out the tooling. You can skip this if you have the barrel lapped.

Check you crown. It would have to be totally trashed to give you such lousy groups, but it is worth looking at. My 22-250 had a ding on the edge and still shot into the .4s, but you never know...

Check the contact area on the back of the bolt lugs. If you only have a very thin wear mark in the bluing, your bolt is not making much contact with the receiver. Most rifles will shoot well in spite of this, but it doesn't help. You want at least 50% to 60% contact in a factory rifle. 100% is better, but unusual.

Chances are bedding is the culprit in this problem. Try easing the action screws out one eigth of a turn. If bedding is the issue, get it fixed, fix it your self, or sell the rifle. If the barrel is still fouling badly after you have tried extreme cleaning, sell the rifle or return it to Remington with a really nasty letter. They WILL replace the complete barreled action if it is not acceptable and they screwed up. Huge tooling in the bore is a SCREW UP. Frankly, if it is shooting into 2.5 inches at 100 yards and your style is not at fault, I'd not waste my time on any of the above. I'd go right to the nearest Remington Repair rep and scream. Insist he send it back for replacement. That is why he is there. Go to the Remington site to locate the rep nearest you.

Hope this helps and hasn't annoyed too many of you for its length. This is my long post for the season...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:18:46 (EDT) 

Russ: Do you ever answer your phone?

Bain: Any reports of trouble with the Hornady TAP ammo? Got some and have had it shoot VERY low compaired to my special ball.

Torsten: Where's my walker?

Rick: Check 6 and e-mail.

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Hurricane City, USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 14:22:33 (EDT) 

Scott- Thanks for the suggestions. You too Russ. For the record, I don't shoot THAT bad (Custom KS .338 shoots Federal/Nosler 210s about 1-1.25 MOA). However, I was shooting @ a range that has an anti-elevation shield immediately in front of the firing line. Have heard that bullets can be effected by passing close to objects but have never had problems with this before. Used JB extensively during first trip to range and it seemed to have no effect. Sweet's cleared up most of the copper at home. During second range trip, 25 passes with Shooters Choice on a brush would result in clean wet patch after every shot, but after range session, heavy copper was apparent.
The Mk4 bases are NOT square, front base appears to be .020" lower and perhaps angled down to front. Sighting from rear, they appear to perhaps be out of level. Slid a piece of notebook paper through channel and it becomes snug about 3" ahead of action, but can be slid all the way back. Recoil lug shows pretty good contact across the entire face of the bedding block. Recoil lug appears square, but out of plumb. Locking lugs show very light wear along edges (40%?) with one good contact patch (10%?) centered on leading edge of right lug and following edge of left. Drew a line on action along stock and noticed no movement when I removed rear screw. Good contact with edges of block between recoil lug and mag well, inconsistent contact with edges elsewhere. No apparent wear on stock. Is the problem with my bases or is my action tweaked?
When I bought this rifle, I intended to have it rechambered and squared, assuming I got results similar to X-ring's review gun. Probably would have had it Blackstarred. If my barrel is trash, does this have any bearing on the quality of the action? Sorry about the long post. All input is greatly appreciated. Seeking half MOA.
Off to fire some AA at small feathered fast-movers,
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, TX USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 16:20:49 (EDT) 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned and is worth a try is to mount a different scope and shoot the rifle. I believe in this enough that I have one scope I use to set all my rifles up, I know what this scope will do, anything outside these parameters is then the rifle.

Dave
Dave Martin <theopair@yahoo.com>
ok USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:15:31 (EDT) 

Scotts right with his advice on the things to check on your rifle. It sounds like a scope problem more than a rifle problem. You can have at least half the things Scott mentioned wronge with your gun and it will still shoot better than that! Have you tried a different scope on it? I had a 223 start shooting bad one day for no reason and the scope had went "South" on me. I changed scopes and that took care of the problem. (Of course this was after another 500 rounds down range and a number of powder and bullet changes)

Sarge,

On your question, I've only had one gun that shot the same load with both the match and the hunting round and it was a 300 Win Mag with the Hornady 168s and the 165BT the only real difference was about a one half inch point of impact change and a tenth change in group size. The Nozler Balistic Tip in some of my rifles will shoot better than the same weight match round!! This seems to be true mostly in the 6mm.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:17:12 (EDT) 

I just missed your post or I would have answered you with my other post. Go with the 1 in 10 twist. I had several 300 Win Mags and they all shot well. I used the 190s in all of them and they all seemed to like IMR4350 the best with RL-22 a real close second. All guns are differen't but it will be a good starting point.
Par <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:25:34 (EDT) 

Thanks one and all for the powder/bullet recommendations and comments, they are appreciated. First I'd like to ask....WHAT'S A WALLET??? I'm so broke I can't even change my mind!!! Now as for the combinations: I've tried the N140 with the 165 (same load 41 grs) and the only thing I remember was it shot a bit high, 1" at 100yds, compared to the 168, but I need to try that again. As to Varget, I tried some in various different rifles, including the .308 and to be honest NONE of my rifles liked it AT ALL! Only other powders I currently have are H380 for my .22-250 and N160 for my sons .243. So yes I guess I'll have to find, first a wallet, then the money to put in it so I can get a can or two of different powders! OK Russ...you talked me into it AGAIN, I'll try the AA2520 first mainly because history has shown that your 110FP and mine seem to like the identical loads!

Sarge slides back in his hide waiting for return fire and any other suggestions/recommendations!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:45:01 (EDT) 

It seems, Andrew, that you and your rifle are fast becoming a Sniper Country “project.” So, whatever you decide to do with all the varying pieces of advice we’ve all given you, please do us a favor and document the results of each change you make, and report to us on your findings.

To Scott: That was an excellent post. I’m doubling your Sniper Country salary.

To Ed: Phone? During the day, no. I sleep during the day, like a vampire. Nature of the beast when you work third shift. I got your message that you called, off the answering machine, but you didn’t leave a number to call you back. Keep trying. Hey, call RIGHT NOW, I’m here!!! :-)

To Sarge: Yes, I agree, our two 110FP Tacticals seem to like the same fodder. One nice thing about hunting loads with the AA 2520, it sure as heck meters well!!!

Note:  I just finished cleaning up the Duty Roster a bit, removing double posts from Al O. and some others.  Hey, guys, look... long posts are one thing, DOUBLE POSTS ARE ANOTHER!!!  Do you guys think you could manage to go for a while without any double posts?!!!  Marius, Mr. Bain, and me are the primary "Roster Cleaners" around here, and we'd sure appreciate it if you'd JUST HIT THE !q#$@%^ "SUBMIT" BUTTON ONE TIME!!!

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 20:34:02 (EDT) 

You also ask about the use of the military sling. I "ass"ume you mean the M1907 MRT leather sling. Giving instructions on the use of "Rubics Sling" through this media is like telling you how to rebuild a small block chevy over the phone. Not prudent. Find an old high power shooter is about the best I can do. Seriously, if any one tried to tell you how to attach and adjust one over this web site you would probably end up with one end of the sling wrapped around you neck and the rifle barrel up your butt. It is confusing.

Binoculars, Those of you near military posts keep an eye out at the disposal auctions. The airforce recently had a bunch of M19 7x50's up for auction. My unit scarfed a bunch of them up for 50.00 each.

By the way Scott it is the M22 series of bino's that have the "catch me-kill me" laser filters on them. It's too bad that none of us have figured out how to remove the filters. Not that any of us would do that if we could figure it out because that would be against regs. Everybody knows that soldiers and Marines never violate the regs.

Dave from San Jose - Scuuuuuse me. I shall refrain from making "ass"umptions based on a question.

Dave from Belfast, Maine, USA did you mean Irish ball? I "ass"umed you meant US.

Well enough salient commentary for tonight.

Gooch is going to get some sleep tonight. Enough web surfing for me. Wait a minute, I know a good Jenny McCarthy web site!!!! Here we go!!!!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, Ar USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 21:11:36 (EDT) 

Gooch: Hey, how can I snag one of these great deals on "jen-U-wine" M19 binocs?

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 23:00:49 (EDT) 

Gooch: After reading your post and article about the Mil-Dot Master, I will be ordering one. You know that for $29.95 it is about the cheapest thing which one can find related to tactical shooting. And if it works the way you said it does, well, I "ass" ume the money will be well spent. And another thing! If you spent $50.00 for those M19 binoculars, I gladly buy a pair from your ourfit for $75.00. That's a pretty good return on anyone's money. Please let me know if any are still available.

Gramps: Nice to see you back again and haven't forgot where we were located. It probably wasn't, the computer. You probably just misplaced your spek-tick-als. Welcome back!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Doublin" my Pleasures here in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 00:37:21 (EDT) 

Steve: I noticed nobody wants to debate weather or not the Springfield 03A3 0r the Enfield #4(t) is more accurate!
 

Sarge: All I can say about your load is play with it and find one you like. I too am on a limited budget so i found 1 powder for three diffferent calibers. I've tried Varget in the /06 and 22-250 i't fine but I can't get any FACTORY info for the .303. I found Factory info with BL(c)2 and I be happy with that. (.750 /06) (.690 .22-250) (skeet@300yds
.303)
 

(A redneck too big to climb trees) Confederate
Confederate <confederate123@yahoo.com>
Possum Town, Mississippi USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:27:25 (EDT) 

You're not the only one, it's just that your name was one I could remember. Believe me, many others have done it too. In "the old days," one member of the Sniper Country Council, who shall remain nameless, but whose initials are "Scott Powers" was the double-post king. Actually, he went about setting new records... five, six, occasionally even MORE "repeat" posts than THAT!

To Gooch: The DRMO here on (Rock Island) Arsenal Island might have some of those binoculars. I've put the word out to a friend who will apprise me when the next auction is. (I know what you mean about "great finds." In my last Reserve unit, when I was a member of the rifle team, one of our guys, who was also the UA in our unit, found a Unertl 80mm spotting scope at the RIA DRMO. Because it was "Army property," he just did what any self-motivated UA would do -- he did a property book transfer from "them" to "us"... after showing "need," of course. Once it was ours, we took it with us to compete at Camp Robinson. That was a NICE scope!!!)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:50:10 (EDT) 

I was thinking of bedding the the first two inches in front of the receiver to dampen the vibes on the long barrel, which I suspect may be part of the problem, but those last two wild shots have me puzzled. Any thoughts?
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 06:50:47 (EDT) 

You didn't mention your ammunition; what are you using? Handloads? Premium match-grade ammo? If handloads, you may still need to find the right load. If factory ammo, you may need to shop around. Since you selected a #4 contour, I presume you're intending for this rifle to be mainly a hunting rig. Whatever the case, don't expect a #4 contour barrel to hold sustained tight groups as well as those of barrels with a #7 or a #8 contour.

Did you break in the barrel properly?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 07:07:35 (EDT) 

Bain: I told Russ where to get TAP, I know it's super secret and only for LE personnel but even you can buy it from the Sportsmans Guide, (now don't tell anybody OK)?

Russ: I e-mailed you my number young-un, did ya ferget it?
I know you sleep days, so do I, called you in the PM, will call again this PM, going to bed now!!!!!! (Teenaged wife is waiting and the Viagra just cut in)!!!!!!!!

Torsten: Walker, one each, WHERE?????????? Has the Eagle landed? Does it fit?

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old folks home, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 08:27:24 (EDT) 

To those interested: Recently, I posted that I have in my possession a (published) letter from a sniper (Army) complaining about the M24 SWS. In case you've been coming here first, instead of to the main page (shame on you if you do), you may not have noticed that I posted the letter on the Articles & Commentary page. Rick, the guy was at FT Bragg, so it won't surprise me if you know him, or know OF him. Many of you wrote to me, privately, asking to see the letter, so I've scanned it and posted it. It takes a while to download, because I used a high (600 DPI) resolution to scan it, but at least it's clear enough that you can read it.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:18:53 (EDT) 

Gramps,
Welcome back!! Boy...Just because a guy forgets where you left your computer you catch all kinds of flack!!

Gooch,
Shawn called last night and said he has a meeting with Major Brewer's recruiter on the 12th and 13th. Sounds as though he might get in with them. They said he might get to go to school in Ark. so he was hopeing you would still be around. He said ever since he talked to the recruiter he just can't quit grinning(HA). (I told him when he talked to them to see if he could take me along) I got Bruce's Mil Dot
Master it works great!! the only suggestion I would have is that you could range smaller targets to less than one mil but you were right on on your evaluation, quick and easy to understand.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:37:47 (EDT) 

SportFLash: The SportFLash is a small disk that slips into the Butler Creek flip up scope cap. It is a honey comb grid about 1/4" thick. It is equivelent to about a 4" sunshade. It eliminates tell tale reflection from the lens. Costs about $7.00. Downside: It really cuts back light transmission. They say you lose about 15%. Sometimes this matters, sometimes it doesn't. Nice thing about the filter is that it is easily removed when necessary. I even put a set on my Tasco Marines (now called Offshores). You can purchase this filter from Premier Reticle, Sparten Supply, Natchez, and just about anyone else who sells Butler Creek products. The filter is a spin off of the Teneabreax KillFlash used by the military. Teneabreax Licensed Butler Creek to sell the SportFlash.

Gooch: Yeah, that was a typo on my part. As an 11H I only rated the M19. The M22 was horded by those unappreciative cretins in the scout platoon. Of course, as it stood out so bloody well, I didn't mind all that much. When caught in light at night, the M22 really did look like the devil himself was staring at you! $50 bucks for the M19 huh? Hmm....So Gooch ole buddy ole pal...drop me a line huh?

Andrew: If your scope mounts are that far off and canted sideways, the only fix is to go to a one piece mount and have a Remington Rep play with it till he can square it up. Do not pay a smith for this as it was Remington's mistake and their responsibility! I know what the Rep will tell you. Unless you put money into the gun in terms of tuning and action truing, he will want to send it back for replacement, which as I said, is what I would do were I you. If the barrel is that bad AND the scope base mounting holes are drilled that out of square, Remington had better replace it post haste! Look at it this way, you'll be getting a new barreled action! The comment on the scope was a good point. Check it. But still, if the mounting holes are that far off, your scope is being unecessarily stressed and that is unacceptable. Toss in the crappy bore and you have a lemon. Return it.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:44:57 (EDT) 

http://www.remington.com/firearms/firearmsfr.htm
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:51:58 (EDT) 

I have a question in regards to barrell stiffness.Does stainless steel offer more resistance to barrell harmonics than say chrome moly steel because of its composition and hardness ?

If this is so,would even stonger steels such as titanium or other alloys (can you imagine how much this would cost !) offer improved accuracy gains over conventional commercially available steels such as chrome moly or 416 stainless steel ?

I would "ass"ume that if an even stronger material was available,that you could have a barrell that was lighter and more durable barrell life (in terms of number of accurate rounds fired) and maybe easier to clean.

Do any of you out there have an opinion on this ?

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada, eh ! - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:52:23 (EDT) 

1 in 10 twist for 300WM w/ 190gr bullets. By the way, will you be handloading?

Scott: That post, re: Andrew's rifle was a great read. I read things like your post, I learn stuff. Thanks. Your post needs an acronym and a title:
B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M. pronounced "Bits-pissersam".. which means: Basic Triage & Diagnostic Protocol for Successful Proactive Paradighm-Shift Regarding Rifle/Scope Accuracy Malaise.

That ought to at least give mid-management level Dilberts a bit of a bodyhard..

Well, I missed my last two electroshock appts. and have had too much coffee this morning. Plus sleeping in the street next to my mailbox waiting for my Mildot Master to arrive puts me on edge.
 
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 10:13:45 (EDT) 

Jeff B from Canada: As far as barrel stiffness goes, a 26 or a 27 inch tube on your action is ok but is not really necessary for a 308. I would recommend a 24 incher,in a #6 or #7 contour and fluted for better cooling. I also think that a stainless steel barrel is slightly softer than a Chrome moly barrel. The last time I inquire from Douglas, this is what they told me. But this was quite some time ago and I could be wrong. You know the miind is a strange thing. Gramps - you can relate, Im sure.

Jeff A from GA. Bits-Pissersam HUH?????

Notice that GOOCH is keeping awfully quiet sittin' on them thar Binoculars.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Lookin Out my Back Door in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 11:13:16 (EDT) 

Any way:
1750 Brown Bess 80 yard accuracy,
1775 Pennsylvania Long 300 yard,
1855 .58 Caliber rifled musket 500yd,
1859 Sharps 600yd,
1863 Whitworth 1000yd, cost $500 back then
1874 50 caliber Sharps 1200yd,
1903 Springfield(M1D) 500 yd,
1937 Model 70 Winchester 1300 yds

The longest shot that I have read about that was confirmed and didn't use >2 rounds was made by Hathcock using a 50 caliber with an 8x Unertl. 1st hit the bike and the 2nd hit te guy that was on the bike @ 2500yds. Buddy that isn't just hit and miss.

One last piece of history, "War our Bussiness Death our Only Product".

I wasn't sure if history was appropriate for the site, so I'll send this up as balloon.

Question: What is the best charge thrower for getting 1/10 grain accuracy from extruded powders? I keeping hearing culver types are the best. Anybody seen comparisons?

Signed LMGTS(Let me get this straight.)
 
 

tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
FR, VA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:12:59 (EDT) 

In the September 98 issue (Vol 46, No. 5 ) of Precision Shooting magazine, on page 8, an aritlce resides by one Kevin Thomas. Mr. Thomas happens to work at Sierra Bullets and due to the nature of his work, fires about 60,000 rounds a year testing projectiles. He recently completed an indepth test of three identical barreled actions used in this testing process. Two of the three were cryo'd and one was kept untreated as a test base. The article is well worth reading, as the results are well laid out and to my mind, settle the issue once and for all.

I'll give you a short synopsis. Cryo does not make a rifle easier to clean as has been claimed. Cryo does not make a rifle more accurate, at least if the rifle in question already has a quality barrel (he used Hart barrels for the test). Cryo in fact seemed to make no difference at all between the barrels. The one and only positive result garnered would seem to be a slight increase in the accuracy LIFE of a barrel. The non-cryo'd barrel lost accuracy around 4,000 rounds. The two cryo'd barrels went as far as 4,500 rounds and one of those two may go a little farther. But that was it. A fouth barrel from BlackStar was also included in the test and the results were about the same. It lasted no longer than the others and died before the 4,500 round mark.

Errosion was consistent in all rifles with no noticable difference. All rifles shot to with in a .100" or so in terms of average accuracy. Mr. Thomas did make mention of the fact that these were top quality barrels and that it is possible that a factory barrel might show more improvement as it undergoes more stress in its creation. But the end result from his test would indicate saving your money. This would seem to correspond with my FAR, FAR less indepth testing to date which has indicated very little improvement by cryo treating. I saw far more improvements from bedding fixes and truing the action. If you have a choice of truing the action or cryo/polish, true the action!

The report is well worth reading. If you do not subscribe to PS, you can get single copies by calling the magazine. 860-645-8776.

Ok. I lied. The inspection piece was NOT my last long post...but after reading this article, it seemed worth passing on!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:36:36 (EDT) 

"B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M."? man, I like that!

Russ,

there you have your name and acronym for Scott's piece when you post it. If I see a name like that I will just HAVE to look, just to see what the heck all that is about :-)

Scott,

nice piece - very nice indeed. E-mailed it to myself for my archives, printed it out for my files and my safe - will keep this one to be used. Great piece!

Gooch,

how much did you say again it'll cost you to ship one of those binos to South Africa? :-)

Now the South African Army, when THEY sell stuff, you know it is really stuffED!

Jeff B,

on barrel material. If one could get those "stiffer" materials, it would have an influence. All good? I am not so sure. Those barrel harmonics play an important role - else one would not free-float a barrel, but totally clamp it down. Also, it would bring its own problems.
What would happen to the "bulge" one gets where the bullet travels through the barrel? If the material is harder, it will be less prone to bulge, and possible deform the bullet more, destroying accuracy much more than one would gain with the stiffer barrel. Also, if the bullets were too hard, like tungsten-cored, one might get more damage to the barrel, and even have a barrel that pulls a cast-iron on you, and just shatters!
Yes, I know I am now talking real extremes, but that's the fun of this, isn't it?

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 14:18:55 (EDT) 

Barrel break-in was as Shilen recommends: clean after every round for the first five, then clean after every 5-shot group for 10 groups. The group I referred to in my first post was actually the 11th group. Cleaning was with Hoppes #9 and JB paste. To the naked eye, the bore looks clean and mirrored, but you can detect some tooling marks in the grooves.

The ammo are handloads: 76gr H4831 behind a Sierra 180gr SPBT, Federal Gold Medal brass, Win WLR primers. Tried CCI 250 (magnum) primers, but they were flattening and cratering a bit too much to suit me. As a side note, I did try shooting the same load with the bullet seated out just barely touching the lands, which is about .150" longer than "magazine" depth: no improvement.

As you suspected, this is a hunting rifle that I will be using in Wyoming in about 4 weeks.

I understand your point about the fouling rather than barrel heating, but the 3 shots into 3/8" (with the business card shoved under the breech) was with a clean, cool barrel.

Perhaps I am expecting a bit too much out of a light barrel like this, but I have some time yet to play with it. In addition to following Scott's tips, maybe I should try some factory ammo such as the Federal Premium with the Nosler Partitions.
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 16:53:12 (EDT) 

You often hear (especially on this site !) about individuals who wish to replace their current barrell with a custom replacement.People who shoot magnum calibres such as myself can't expect to get near the same barrell life that should be expected if you shoot other calibres such as .308 Winchester.

My point being that I can expect to replace barrells more often than some others.For example,since I've purchased my Rem. Sendero in 7mm mag. in November last year I've put around 500 rds. through it.Sure,I know its just getting broke in.I'm trying to prolong barrell life by seldom shooting maximum power loads and using moly coated bullets.

Therefore, I was wondering if other materials might offer more barrell life than what is currently available.Of course it would likely be more costly but it could very well be worth the extra expense.

Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them.

Hey,just remember that we live in a market based economy and if there's enough demand for anything,then you can be sure someone will be willing to supply it.
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EDT) 

To Tom “LMGTS” Scott: Gazing with awe at the benchrest sport for a few years now (undeniably a rich man’s game), I’ve looked into “what it takes” to be successful. There are a couple of other really good ones, but the Culver model is unarguably one of the very best. It’s also, like anything else associated with benchrest, NOT CHEAP. I’d be interested in hearing what measures some of you “serious” handloaders are using, along with your comments about them.

To Greg: A #4 contour barrel isn’t “toast” by any means, just because it’s lighter than a #8 version. If you go through Scott’s soon-to-be-infamous post, you might find some problem areas. By all means, try some premium-grade ammo, shoot carefully, and see what happens. Report back to us when you’ve done so.

Hunting in Wyoming, eh? Pronghorn? (( sigh ))

To Jeff B.: “Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them.” Quite right. This is exactly why I double cryoed my .338/378’s barrel.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EDT) 

Sarge - Let me know how your new loads turn out.

Stay safe guys
Brent
 

Brent <brenting@juno.com>
hotashellin, Louisiana USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:15:44 (EDT) 

Pat Murphy - You guys that have purchased Mildot Masters need to email bnrobins@flash.net for instructions on how to use it for targets under 1 mil.

In short if you look at the right window you will notice that on the right side of the window, you have mils broken down into gnats hairs. In the right side window you have the bullet drop in inches. Line the gnats hair mils (target mil reading) with the bullet drop inches (used in this instance as target size) and read the distance in the normal place. Viola!! Bruce Robinson can email you a sheet to add to your manual if you email him. He doesn't relate directions using such colorful terms as "gnat hairs" but it is a bit clearer.

mrbullet - Good to hear about the younger Murphy and his endeavor to join the NE guard. I know he will enjoy his time with them. Nebraska has a great shooting program. Sometimes I think they are in a different National Guard than I am. Let me know if he comes down here. Tell him to have his ghillie done prior to arrival. He'll get an extra few hours of sleep if he does.

Speaking of sleep I think I shall obtain some of said sleep.

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:18:37 (EDT) 

the blue and yellow shotgun company will have production samples in three weeks. brace for impact !

ende
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 06:43:43 (EDT) 

der Eagle has gefallen out of zee schky !

It fit´s, thank you, what do I do about people staring at me ?? I´ll send you all the babes that I cant handle.

The walker is hung up in customs, I need export permission since it contains material for LE and Mil only. e.g., the Martin Baker seat cushion, and the Huffer APU ! They cant figure out what the Camo Jell-O (tm) fed vulcan is for eather.

I´ll keep you posted BTW our Nauga pup is comming along
nicely.
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:11:34 (EDT) 

out of my TM30-606 German phrase Book,

ZINT zee SHARF-sheet-sa ? KAW-men!

Ende
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:20:12 (EDT) 

Djengis Kahn set up two memorials for one of his archers somewere along the Silk Road in Mongolia (I think). One stone was placed were the arrow was fired from and the other were the target were hit. The distance between the stones are something like 600 or 900 meters (can't remember). Saw this many years ago in a documentary about the Silk Road. Not bad with a bow and arrow!

To Scott Powers: Have you received my snailmail? Sent it last friday, airmail.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 09:20:49 (EDT) 

To ALL,
I know this will start one Heck of a responce and fight but here goes, I had a new Schneider 308 bbl put on my 308 this summer and at first I had problems with a land fouling at the end of the bbl. It just wouldn't come clean for the last inch or so. So I would get out the JBs and after a few passes it was gone until the next cleaning. Finally I called Mr.Schneider and told him about the problem and that I kept getting a flyer almost all the time. He asked me about the break in and the cleaning procedure and had no problem with it until I told him about the JBs and he said eveytime you use JBs you will need to start the break in process allover again because your gun will foul more until its made its "Bond" with the copper. I of course doubted him and tried it for myself and found that it would indeed take longer to clean and had more copper fouling until it was shot in again. Well there it is I'am ducking for cover so fire away!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 10:49:14 (EDT) 

Take heart though. If you are determined to keep your rifle, a good smith can fix the problem by using a one piece base. One explained it to me but I'd be hard pressed to pass the knowledge along. Al?

Oh yeay, before I forget, I left out a part in the troubleshooting piece. Reinstall the action in the stock, torque to spec. Install the scope mounts and scope. Remove the rear action screw. Does the action move or pop out at the rear? A good strong scope base can stress an action if the scope mounting holes in the receiver are not true OR if the base is not true. Check 'em both.

LeMay: Nope. I do not have a mil-dot master. Till someone sends me on out of the goodness of their heart (HINT HINT), I will not be getting one. I am tapped out. I had to buy another case of Fed GM for next week.

JB: Pat, your not starting a fire storm. JB is pretty harmless to a bore and may even assist polishing it, but no one should use it for regular daily cleaning. I use it about every 50 to 100 rounds. Guys who moly really need it to remove the hard carbon rings that can form near the chamber if they are slacking in their regular cleaning and relying on moly to keep things tidy.

TorF: Yes Sir! Many thanks. I got it yesterday. Interesting magazines!

Hey Torsten! How about emailing me an English translation of Der Panzer Lied (Lied der Panzertruppen)?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 11:49:13 (EDT) 

back on August 11, 1998 at 14:53:14, you made the following statement about annealing:
"Then get the old Butane torch and heat the case necks, but do NOT dump them in the water !
Let them cool and you have soft necks again ready for sizing."

Now this is contrary to almost all I've seen on annealing. Normally one is advised to DUMP them into the water - very seldom the opposite. Why would you NOT want to dump the brass? I must say, I am no expert, and have never done this yet.
From the little bit I learnt about metallurgy I seem to remember that if you let the material being heat-treated cool down by itself you are not really achieving anything - the molecules will just re-arrange themselves as they were before. That is unless you place them under some kind of force while cooling down - like a magnetic field to align them.
If one dumps them into the water, or cools them down by any other means other than normal subjection to room temperature, only then does one get a real change in the molecular structure. This happens because the structure is "frozen" as it was at that specific temperature before you dumped it. Or are those second year material strengths courses I did 15 years ago faded from memory too much? Or did the wrong stuff stick in memory? This wasn't my favourite subject, although I have often had thoughts of kicking my own butt for that!

Gooch,
on August 11, 1998 at 19:14:26, you said:
"Had a good posting written up twice and my AOL went tits up twice. Any good suggestions on another internet service!!"
I've seen this statement more than once here on the Roster. One solution for this would be to write your entry in a Word Processor like Russ, where one could also use the spell-checker ( Scott - HINT! HINT! HINT! :-) ) That way you can save it and just cut-and-paste again into the Roster.

Oh yes, almost forgot: SPR
It is only being released here on September 18 - I will HAVE to go see it. Haven't been to the movies for quite a long time. Not sure if I should take the wife along - 6 months pregnant. It might be too much for her! I think it will upset her too much. ( And of course then she can't see me cry - as that seems to be the order of the day :-) )

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, GAUTENG, RSA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:10:21 (EDT) 

To TorF: Regarding the long archery shot, all I can say is that it must have been a no-wind day. Or... maybe it was a “thin-wind” day. Hmmm.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:21:47 (EDT) 

Pat - On the ghillie,

1) Use a boonie hat with a wad of netting long enough to drape over the scope of the rifle when in firing position. Go for the Jon Bon Jovi look. (Ask Junior he'll know what I'm talking about. For us old guys it's the Farrah Fawcett look.)

2) Use a two piece set of BDU's for the uniform.

3) For a school ghillie it is okay to sew the netting on the back of the uniform and tie the burlap into the net. Make sure that the burlap isn't long enough to get caught up under your body when crawling. Have someone put the suit on then lay on thier belly, then trim around it.

4) Color is to personal taste, I prefer a mauve top, chartruse bottom and, if it after labor day, a tasteful pair of robins egg blue pumps with a matching drag bag. Seriously, the color is dependent upon the prevelent vegetation in the AO. Try to keep the artifical colors a tad light and darken it with NATURAL VEGETATION to match the area. Mix the colors up, don't look like a mono colored chewbacka!

5) Pad the knees and elbows, move the shirt pockets to the side/sleeves and you are on the way. The first ghillie is an experiment, the second is better and after three of four you figure it out.

6) It is hard to build one wrong! You and Junior are smart so sit down, plan it, then execute!

Tell junior to work on range estimation with the mil dots.

Sniff!!! A new generation of snipers.....I'm gonna ....cry.... hold me Rick. Tell me we're not old and forgotten....

I'm gonna eat a twinkie and lift my spirits...

Gooch is out.

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:40:46 (EDT) 

Marius, The story I got on annealing case mouths is if you heat them up then rapidly cool them by quenching in water or oil you will actually do the opposite of what you want and make them hard and brittle.

so is there any verdict on bipods? I sure like the design of the Parker Hale, but if it wobbles...

gee I can't hardly wait, only three more years until McMillan delivers my A3
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:57:26 (EDT) 

Gooch: The "women are loose"? Time to rebarrel; swap out the lightweight sporter for a target barrel. Also, consider adding a couple of inches. That ought to "tighten up" your groups, and you'll find you'll be able to maintain the kind of "accuracy" you desire much, much longer than before!!!

In the alternative, hold hard and squeeze!

Bain out.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:16:44 (EDT) 

Does anyone with a Leupold Mark 4 M3 have anything positive
or negative to say about it? I plan to buy one but down under these items are expensive. I would appreciate any first hand field based comments.

Does anyone else out there find the Remington M700 PSS DM
magazine less than positive to lock in?

cheers all

Darryl Todd
wa Australia - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:44:16 (EDT) 

Add to those thoughts on the Ghillie Suit - Once you think you have enough burlap on your ghillie, remove atleast half of it! Also, rather use knee and elbow pads when you think you may need protection rather than filling up the uniform with padding. With padding and canvas that sucker is stiff and hard to move around in as well as pack. I rather question a sniper that has to crawl so much that he needs all that protection in the first place. In most areas a sniper can use defilade to his advantage and move in a less tiring manner. Once the sniper is in worm's eye view mode, his route selection is very limited. On the burlap color, recommend that you buy natural color sold in most WAL MARTs. This color is very light but has the advantage of allowing for such upgrades as soaking in strong coffee and tea to give a very natural color. Other natural colors can be produced by boiling different materails and soaking the burlap. WATCH your skin! Can take awhile to get rid of the color. Primary camo on the ghillie is natural materails that are changed with the movement.

Parker Hale Bipod - You're paying too much for the name and they are not stable. Spend the money on the short cant adjustable Harris Bipod. Just remember, any bipod must be in a neutral position to shoot accurately. Tension fore or aft will cause a shift in recoil impulse. This will open up your group and once your group becomes bigger than your target, you will miss the target sooner or later. Usually when you need to hit it the most.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:54:35 (EDT) 

Mistah Bain Sah!! You have offended my honah!! I'll see you in court sah!! Don't you know that snipers spend long hours penitrating the bush, in the prone position, with large barrelled weapons to shoot hot loads!!!

Hurrumph!!!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:11:42 (EDT) 

In short, I'm about ready to make it open season on any of you guys who HAVE MAJOR BRAIN DUMPS AND SUBMIT DOUBLE POSTS! Maybe your colleagues would enjoy a little "live" game, eh?

One month. Can we go ONE MONTH without some !#%# idiot screwing up and double posting??? IS THAT TOO !#%@# MUCH TO ASK???!!! Jesus H. Christ!!! (R. Lee Ermey style)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:15:59 (EDT) 

Not bad for a NG guy?!

I'll have you know that when You were in Vietnam sleeping in the mud and lancing cysts I was watching Star Trek and delivering papers!

Just because I think I'm hot shit doesn't mean I'm not!!!

You think that experience means everything don't you?

Wait, this post didn't go well. Uhh....Wait...

You and Bain are plotting aren't you! I'll show you, I'll turn off my monitor...

tyhri now yoi canr se3 mi

fuuch out.
They call me Mistah Gooch! <kdgooch@aol.com>
Grrwood, ARAR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:38:53 (EDT) 

Torsten: Stop sending the babes, 450 is too much for an old guy like me!

Russ: Gonna call when I send this......

All: Source for GOOD 7.62X51 military ammo for a young-un that just bought an M1A, (I'm so proud I could bust)!

Gooch: Yer right about the insect look on those binocs, have some M-22s and they sure do look purty when ya see them at night!

It seems that all of the LE ammo I got shoots low, (the Hornady TAP stuff). Is it me or has anyone else noticed this? Depity Dave???????
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Yonder, USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:53:46 (EDT) 

About your Leopold Mk 3 scope. One of the best in the world. Perfect tracabillity, and crystal clear. Well worth the dinars and shekels and geld you spend for it. Oh go ahead go for it, You won't regret it. You may after your wife finds out, but what the hell, she'll find some other reason to get pissed at you, so go ahead and get it and tell her "AL" said it was OK. (Just don't give her my address.)

Russ: Lets catch that perp who keeps on double posting and bolt his scrotum to and oak chair. Sorry, its just the full moon!

al
 

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Starry Starry NIght, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:17:57 (EDT) 

Darryl: We would answer your question about hearing loss, but we can't hear you!

And Gooch: Oh what a man!!!! Only to be able to find someone like you with robin egg blue pumps in the woods. Tee-hee-hee, goodness, goodness, I say with a limp wrist.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Starry Starry Night #2 in Moon Drenched, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:32:58 (EDT) 

Love that M3A!! Can't think of a single reason, other than can't afford, not to own that scope. Course I could be just a little prejudiced towards that scope!

Al - I really don't know about the Versa Pod. Never used it or even seen it in real life. The only fault I have had with the Harris is a few have broken at the head where it mates with the fore stock. Of course this could be ham fisted military types causing this to occur.

Darryl - Don't know about hearing loss with syn stocks. I do know that when I retired from the military I was authorized free hearing aids. Don't know if shooting syn stocks caused it or if being flung through the air from a few close proximity explosions caused it.

Russ - Your prozac man your prozac!!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:59:05 (EDT) 

To Rick: I "did" take my Prozac. You should see me on the days I forget. Remind me to tell you about the time I was riding my motorcycle, and some assinine female type cut me off with her pickup truck, and I had to do some very quick and fancy weight distribution on the left foot peg, and then I caught up to her at the next stoplight, and started to explain, rather loudly, the error of her ways, and she rolled up her window, thinking that she could avoid listening to me, and I took my fist and... well, um... yeah... we'll get drunk and I'll tell you all about it. Honestly, I'm MUCH calmer now.

On bipods: If you're a fan of the Parker-Hale model, but not a fan of the price, allow me to recommend the Chinese, made-with-prison-labor M-85 from Model One Imports. At $60 or so (I bought two of them at the Indy 1500 gunshow earlier this year), they're DARN sturdy, and you're not paying for the price. Hey, you KNOW they're made right, because the hired help gets executed if they screw up. Another recommendation from Scott, for which I'm glad. Let's see... to date, he's turned me onto B&L Elite 4000 scopes, M-85 bipods, and most recently the Nikon 4x scope. What a swell guy!!!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 02:48:37 (EDT) 

Gooch: Robins egg blue pumps, I knew the Murines were funny but really........

Al: Scrotum nailed to a chair, my kind of guy....

Russ: Are ya awake???????

Rick: Gonna need ya to e-mail me again about building gillie suits, I cleaned out my files and you were in them, (I'm old ya know)!!!!
 

Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Sunny SC, USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 09:44:33 (EDT) 

How's the .338/.378 coming along ?Has your load development produced satisfactory results so far ?Is the H50BMG powder producing the velocity you are looking for ?

By the way,I ordered a Richard's Microfit Benchmark stock for my 6.5 x 55mm project.I didn't mind the look of the Tactical model but thought the latter would be more versatile for hunting/target shooting.

Several of my shooting friends have the Wildcat thumb hole sporter model.Up til then I'd never heard of them before.The laminate on their stocks is so attractive I just knew I had to have one.

I guess you could say that Richard's is probably one of those companies that although they build great product,their name recognition isn't as widely known as some of their competitors.

Gooch: STOP beating around the bush !Hey,just remember its o.k. to fire hot loads as long as your not firing any blanks.I understand that this may cause a shortened barrell life.By the way,all you Snipers out there better make sure that your triggers are adjusted properly or you might have an accidental discharge !
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 10:37:00 (EDT) 

On bipods - I concur with sister Boucher on the short Harris with the built in tiltability. I use the standard issue Harris w/o tiltability and do just fine. Takes only a second to adjsut legs or dig, dig, dig one in a tiny bit in the dirt.

Ricky told me a story about him, a friend of his and a bidet over in Saudi. Tsk tsk ricky. It'll be puiblished inthe next Cosmo.

Gooch out and feeling manly today.

Sometimes this SC is just too much fun!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Banjo twang!, Soowee! USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 11:33:05 (EDT) 

If you want to try racing cars do you sell the kids and buy an INDY car? NO! Enter the Savage question. $300 barrel,use a $300 scope=$600 test bed. Try it, if you like it then step up but not till you are equal or better the the equipment.

If we fail to learn from history we are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes. Well sorta. Make it Simple, trained people to use the trick stuff are hard to come by in protracted conflict. I could not pick up a fallen mans M41/300 zoomer and hit the horizon as well as my battle gun could with all the details you need to know. Enter the history part. #4T Enfield, when zeroed ant Tommy could twist the well placed and marked knobs, yes top and left just like you pay extra for on Leupold's Mk.X-25X75X80mm GPS, and then hit some thing. Made of brass sewer pipe this same scope on the L42A1 has ranging klick up that actualy work even for me to 800yrds. Actually it works best out to 400 but then you get your Robar 50 years old and do better.

The point befor I get too much windage here. Is there any body else out there who shoots these older guns and would like to chat about the or are we doomed to bench race imaginary or dream guns.

Lets start here.
1. G-43/Zf4, I have a shot drift on the 3rd. shot. Seems to put two on the aim point the pull the last 2'' ridht. Any comments or ideas on this. 1960's steel case ammo.

2.Sav.110FP/ART-MPC with the standard stock when draged over hill and dale can put two cold shots in the hole at 200yrds but throws the next two high right about 2'' but in the same hole? Roll my own for this one,IMR4064 etc.

3.Mosi 91/30PU, now this one is fun, a Sharp Shooters gun at best, can hit the bottom of a soda can at 100yrs with yellow tip surplus 180g bullets but when I roll 148g fmj .310 bullets in Lapua brass the hills are safe? Any help here?

I personaly have some 400yrd confirmed shots but I am in no way a marksman or even a target shooter. This is for fun and sadly at a time in my life when I start to hit stuff my hair keeps falling out and getting in the way.

MJ

Monterey Jack <MontereyJack@kmenterprises,com>
Calif. USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 13:47:30 (EDT) 

I haven't tried the Hornady TAP yet, But, you may want to consider that it's not that it shoots low, what happens when you get OLD is it's hard to keep it up.

Get more rest and take your viagra.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Just leaving for some dove hunting in, Restful Weest Virginia USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 16:58:49 (EDT) 

Glad you ordered the Richards stock. I actually ordered the Tactical... they delivered a Culbertson. I didn't notice for two months (during which time I'd pretty well "bought" the thing, by working on the stock). Still, in hindsight... for "this" gun... I'm glad I have the stock that I do. I'll be including it in my upcoming stock review. You guys who don't mind a little work with sandpaper, you're missing the untold deal of the year by not getting a Richards stock. When you see my stock (I'll include photos with my article), you're going to say... "He only paid $99 for that stock?!" Oh, and he delivers a bit sooner (i.e., this century) than does McMillan. Not knocking McMillan on their product, though... I love their stocks... but I just LOVE a laminated stock -- they're strong AND beautiful.

No, Jeff... Richards is a small, unheard-of company. Good. Keeps their deliveries pretty well on time. Shhhhh... don't tell anyone else about them, okay?

On bipods: I notice a (partial) picture of my M-85 bipods on the current Precision Shooting magazine. Concerning a "neutral" firing position (Rick?) with bipods, how do you know you're at the same "neutral" position for each shot? I'm not trying to be silly, but really, how do you know -- shot to shot -- that you're at top-dead-center for each shot? Argh! This consistency stuff can drive a guy nuts!

To Monterey Jack: I shoot the old stuff (well, custom guns built on "old" actions). They're cheap, but they work. On the "test bed" idea. Of course, "I" like it... but you'll be assaulted for it because, oh gee, it's not a REMINGTON action -- that is, it isn't "round" -- and you can't throw the thing on a lathe and true the thing up. Shame, shame. How could you even SUGGEST a Savage?!!! (Hey, I've done it on two Savages, and it works for ME! As always, your mileage may vary.) On your 110FP Tactical load -- just "MY" two cents, but... IMR 4064 shot like ca-ca in mine. What other powders did you try? If you haven't done "serious" work with Varget and N-140, give them a try. You might see good things happen with 43.0 grains of Varget or 41.0 grains of N-140 (with Sierra 168 Match Kings). In general, we're not a "benchrest" crowd here. Many of us are strapped for cash and look for inexpensive ways to outshoot the big boys. We all have different income levels, and we're all interested in what is working for the other guy. So jump in and contribute. "Sin boldly, for Grace is abundant."

To Mike Miller: You can hope all you want, Mike, but until you tell us if you're using your 175s in a .308 Winchester, .300 Winchester Magnum, or a .30-06 Springfield, and what the barrel length is, and how far you plan on shooting... well, you're probably not going to get much "specific" help. Let us know what you're using and we'll try to help you. Sure, I could presume you're using your moly-coated 175s in a .308 Winchester out to 1,000 yards... but I'd rather hear exactly what your situation is.

To all: I already knew of Roger Johnston's demise, but Dave Brennan wrote a fairly nice obituary in the current issue of PS. I'd spoken to Roger on a couple of occasions, over the phone. Nice guy. He could easily run your phone bill up, but you never seemed to mind because he was so enjoyable to talk to. He was an easy-spoken man, very intelligent, and very friendly.

Update on the ".35 Bear Buster" -- I now have 50 rounds of shoulder-breaking .35 Bear Buster rounds, ready to run through the rifle; 53.0 grains of AA 2520 under a Sierra .35 caliber 225-grain Game King in a .444 Marlin case necked down to .35 caliber. The entire rifle weighs, I'm guessing, 7.5 pounds, including scope. Don't try this at home, kiddies. Total cost for the Enfield #4 Mk 1 action, Ramline stock, Wilson (Midway) barrel, Nikon 4x scope, and Leupold mounts and base: about $240. Gunsmithing was free (refer to truck comment earlier). Load data should ("should") mimic .35 Whelen loads. Stay tuned.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 03:06:34 (EDT) 

Russ: Title of your last e-mail??????? I resemble that remark.......

Out here and off to bed!!!!!!!
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Viagra City, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 08:33:12 (EDT) 

Steve lots of good deals on M-39's, if Star Line get some brass out soon??? I'm getting pulled 147g Bulgarian bullets for $8 per. 100, at .310'' they also work in .303 Enfields.

So? Who else is shooting G-43/Zf4's?? The 8mm has a great history in sharpshooting.

MJ
Monterey Jack <montereyjack@kmenterprises>
Prundale, Calif. USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 11:54:06 (EDT) 

Can you imagine slugging around a shouder fired weapon with abarrell length between 35"-42" ? Definitely a bench gun if I've ever heard of one !
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 12:07:17 (EDT) 

Darryl,
If you dont want to lay out the bucks for the MK-4 the new 3.5X10 Long Range is a good alternative for about $400 less. I have one and its great!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 13:52:49 (EDT) 

On the Mosin-Nagant: Surgical secret of the century (Finnish models, that is).

To Jeff: I agree with you. However, I wish I’d have gone with a 32-inch barrel instead of a 30-inch. Oh, well... I’ll make do. As for carrying around the heavy stuff (something I know about, trust me), Butler Creek makes a version of sling that is like a “shock absorber” -- I have one on Bwana, my heavy-barreled .416 Remington Magnum... which, oh by the way, is in a laminated Richards thumbhole stock.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 19:18:03 (EDT) 

OK some of you wanted to know how the search for a "hunting" load with the Sierra 165 gr GameKing for my 110FP went. Well here goes:
As per my exalted Editor-in-Chief, who, when it comes to 110FP's hasn't steered me wrong yet, I bought some Accurate Arms AA2520. The Sierra 4th edition Reloading Manual lists this powder at 43.5 grains as their load of choice for hunting with the 165GK. Being prudent I started my loads at 41.5 then 42.0,42.5,43 and 43.5. At 100yds the 42.0 shot almost as well, I won't argue, as any of my handloaded match rounds! 5 shot group was right at 0.73", as measured with calipers, outside edge to outside edge. NOT BAD for a "hunting" round! Using my Mildot Master and the ballistic table I have for my 168gr match loads (next range session I'll chrono this load and get the correct ballistic table printed up)I dialed in and proceded to decimate the soda can population, that someone had left, at 200yds. Not to shabby! This load is a definate "keeper"!

Sarge slips back to his hide and waits.

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 20:55:07 (EDT) 

GOOCH - Don't you dare relate that lie! It's all lies guys, don't believe that evil Gooch!

Reference recycled actions - Some of the best and most durable weapons are made on "old" actions. Never discount them. You would be doing yourself a great disservice. Myself I like the 03A4, Confederate, depends on what your tastes are and what you are used to. The Enfield was more popular due to less jamms and ease of maintenance. Only the Marines really liked the Springfield 03. The Army used mostly the Enfields. As far as the Nagant goes, it is still seeing action as a sniper rifle in many parts of todays world and to under estimate it's accuracy is a one way ticket home in a body bag. The carbine model is NOT a fun gun to shoot though!

Gramps - Did you say you lost that babbling on the Ghillie Suit? I'll have to sit down and write one on a word processor so you can save it to a regular file. What do you use on your computer?

Hold hard guys or it will be a long night!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:21:29 (EDT) 

P.S. Please Help
Pickett <PHarris168@aol.com>
lost in the hills of, TN USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:54:41 (EDT) 

Rick: Check e-mail......

Torsten: Got walker, paid many $$$$$$$$$$ under the table to customs for it, it had better be worth it!!!!!!! :-)

Russ: DS or SH??????? Your call.......

Bain: I think I sent you e-mail???????

Gooch: Need some of that skin stuff, what's the price????

Out here

Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Over Yonder, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 23:08:13 (EDT) 

Anyway, I would start w/ 43.0 gr of N140 and increase in 0.5gr increments up to 44.5gr. This is close to the edge if you look at the literature, however, moly's presence is supposed to decrease pressure, so an increase in charge wt. is necess. to recapture any velocity loss. I've gone to 44.5 w/ N140 and 540 and seen no signs whatsoever of high pressure (ie. primer flattening or cratering).

Also, bullet seating depth is very important. For some reason, any Sierra match bullets I've ever worked w/ have given best accuracy when seated 0.010 inches off the lans. That's been the case with .308, 300WM, and w/ 6.5/08. 190, 175, 168, 155, in .30 cal. and 140, 142 in 6.5mm. ALL work at 0.010 in. off lans.

Also, you mentioned 4895 as one of your powders. Is it Hogdon or IMR. Try 41.0 or 42.0gr w/ 4895. And, try VV N135 (41.0gr ) w/ either the 168s or 175s and see what happens. Its burn rate is very close to the 4895s.

The N140 and 135 meters pretty well, too.

Darryl: I agree four thousand percent w/ Pat about one of Leupold's LR scopes. I just got one recently and it's like any of Leupold's scopes. In a word.. magnificent !! Thing is, Mk4 M3 is , well, Al already said it. Either way you can't lose, really.

To All: Seems like every time I read in the Roster, I get more psyched up about tactical/sniper/field shooting. I'm new at this but what I've done so far, I've loved. And so far means: 1. Educate myself. Read, read, read. Precision Shooting, Tactical Shooter...you know.
2. Learning to handload ammo to fit a particular rifle. Great fun.
3. Got a couple of bolt guns and shoot them whenever I can (not nearly as much as I'd like, naturally).
4. Shot in my very first tactical match approx. 3 weeks ago. No. 2 is coming up in 2 weeks.
5. I get to spend time with Hook Boutin. That's like Santa Clause and God rolled into one.. great man.

So, that's where this little moly huffing, moe-foe sits amidst the spinning spiritual vortex that is, well, how should one say it-- shootin' at thangs wif uh fat barrelled gun thet's fer away..

Now, I read about ghillie suit helpful hints, opinions about binocs, articles about equipment, reviews about training facilities, and other, I'll call it, snipercountry-related things, and I want to learn and do other stuff. You know, not only learn to be a marksman, but participate in the other aspects of this craft.

So, somebody point me at another aspect of this to look into. Am I making any sense? Or is this just a touch of sleep deprivation psychosis rearing its ugly little head?

Hey, guys, all this stuff is fascinating, really. And I am hungry to learn more. That's all.

Bedtime, boys and girls..
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Cordite Buzz, Ga USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 01:39:20 (EDT) 

I was in a reserve training exercise last weekend and saw some new sniping gear.

The Finnish Army has now officially acquired Sako TRG-41 sniping rifles in 338 Lapua Magnum. This rifle had the military acceptance marks (A "Tower" stamped all over the parts and supplies) and a military log book for the amount of rounds that have been shot trough the barrel.

The scope was a Leupold Mark 4 M3 x10 with A 338LM-specific cam !!! The cam was graduated out to 1200 meters. I think that they will use mildots out to 1500 meters. (I haven´t calculated whether this is possible with the ammo, but 1200 meters seem to be a little bit short range for 338 LM.)-> If there is enough money, any ammuniton specific cam for M3 can be had. Most probably cams for the 308/175 ammo will arrive soon. Another question is whether Leupold will sell them to civilians. In a PC-world this is not 100% sure which is too bad.

The rifle had a blackened barrel, but I don´t know whether it was a molybden or stainless barrel. Probably molybden. Other additions were a muzzle brake with threads for a suppressor (Army has not chosen a model yet, most probably it will be a BR-Tuote´s reflex-suppressor). A Parker-Hale -type bipod is included as are emergency sights. This model had that version of sights that are not attached to the rifle but are in the pocket of the shooter, or in the field 600 meters behind you :-). Too bad as there is another model available from Sako that is attached to the rifle and which can be folded up quickly.

A night-vision that clamps in front of the rifle is available too, the model is unknown to me, but the old TAK-85, Sniping Rifle Model 85 uses a Simrad 250 add-on.

Received my Nightforce 5.5-22x56 scope with mil-dots last week. It really is HUGE, weighs around two pounds, is 19.5 inches long, and is 2.72 inches thick at the objective. I think that Butler Creek doesn´t produce their flip-up scope covers for scopes with a O.D. larger than around 2.5 inches. What gives ? Where could I buy flip-up scope covers for this scope ? Any other suggestions ?

BTW I know this scope is not the bes