September 1998
 

H&K SL 6 & 7: Torf we have a gunsmith that works a lot on these and installs all sorts of barrels as well as good stocks. I´ll see if he has a catalog or something. Mail me your snail mail adrress and I´ll relay what I can find.

Bain: do you know anything about a Leupold Laser Rangefinder ? I have asked them via e mail several times and the answers suggest that they are working on something.
Maybe at the NASGW or SHOT ?

My BDU´s and gear are almost dry again after the weekend, time to pack my ruck for the next haul. Hey you Texans, send some sun to mossy green Germany !

Schlachtaxt drei Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 02:50:49 (EDT) 

Thanks again to all for your help in putting my rifle together.

Sandy
Sandy <shiftysand@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 07:54:45 (EDT) 

Russell,
Ok, OK,...No more will I use the "S" word in a negative manner, I don't want to take Gooch's "Evil" title away from him and I was raised to not pick on those who were less fortunate than us (Rem.700 owners) It was good hearing from you anyway. Take care and keep your powder dry!!

Pat <mrbullet>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 09:49:35 (EDT) 

To JimmyG: I see a few options for you. One, do nothing. There are some great loads for the .30-06 Springfield. (Hathcock's first-tour rifle was a Winchester 70 in .30-06 Springfield -- and "he" did okay with it!) It sounds like you haven't even done any load development yet, so don't get all depressed over (so far) "nothing." Second, and a bit more drastic, have a gunsmith remove the barrel and cut the chamber for .308 Winchester. You'll lose a minor amount of barrel length, but you'd have a rifle in .308 Winchester. As for the magazine... well, it's a long action, and Savage just blocks off the rear portion of the magazine well when they use long actions for short-action cartridges. Any gunsmith could do this for you or Savage could do it for you if you send them the rifle. (In fact, you could send them the rifle and "trade" barrels and have them modify the magazine well. I would think they would do this for you, especially if you haven't shot the barrel yet. It would probably be a minor cost.) Third, replace the barrel with a premium-grade barrel (and modify the magazine well). Really, though, work up some loads first (and don't give up too easily). Then, if all else fails, explore your other options. (And, "Mr. Bullet" gave you some good advice, also. Further, there's a nice "comparison" article on our Articles page, concerning the .308 vs. .30-06 debate.

As for optics, check back through all our Duty Roster Archives. You will find a LOT of scope recommendations. (One of these days, we're going to HAVE to develop a Sniper Country's Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page, I can see it coming.)

To Sandy: I believe the model Rick is referring to (I've seen it, and know exactly which one he's talking about) is the "Offshore Waterproof Binoculars." In my Jerry's catalog, their are a few different versions, but the "gee whiz" model is listed as "7x50mm w/Improved Compass," part number TASOS541, with a price of $177.50 (dealer).

To Pat: "LESS FORTUNATE???!!!" :-)

To Cory: Thanks for the confirmation on the binoculars (I saw your post just before I entered mine).
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:22:12 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:39:38 (EDT) 

Now, the up side of your chosen caliber is versatility. You have gobs. The -06 can shoot rounds weighing up to 220 grains or more. While this is not needed for a tactical rifle (depending on your philosophy), it gives you options the .308 does not. Try the 190 grain Match Kings. Good high BC and fair velocity. Best of all, you can tackle any north American game animal and not worry about being under gunned. In short, what you gave up in total accuracy you gained in total versatility. The .308 is so popular in part due to the fact that cases are so much more available today than the 06. Times change. In 1965 -06 brass was as cheap as a promise from Bill Clinton...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:25:52 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:44:03 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 16:00:19 (EDT) 

Here is a stumper, for me anyway, let me see how some of you answer this one! Is there a corelation(sp) between the amount of powder, in grains, used for one bullet weight, in grains and the same powder but a different bullet weight in grains? Example: I currently use(.308) 41 grs of N140 under a 168gr MatchKing and get D--- good groups. Now lets say I want to use a 165gr GameKing with the same powder. Is there some way, other than just plain "playing", to figure how much powder to use to get the same kind of accuracy I get with the MatchKings using the GameKing bullets. Is this totally confusing! Hope not! This should be a good mind exercise for those of you that are mathematically inclined and will keep me from using up a bunch of powder trying to figure this out!

Sarge goes back and waits
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 17:27:10 (EDT) 

Good Question, BAD Idea!!!!

Too many variables, too big a chance for a catistrophic failure and area 51 isn't far enough away.

Take Care!

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolla@access.mountain.net>
Back Home Again in, West Virginia USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 18:10:10 (EDT) 

M852 is the mil spec equivelent to Federal Gold medal match. It is easy to identify as the case has a knurling around the base, a headstamp that says "match" and a "hollow tip" projectile. If you are getting a lot fliers out of M852 it is probably you or the gun, not the ammo.

M118 and M80 are hard to tell apart out of the box. If you have two of each it is easy as the overall cartridge length of the M118 is slightly longer. (Longer bullet) If you pull a projectile and the bullet has a square base with 90 degree angles it is 146 grain M80 ball which is used as M14 ammunition or linked for 7.62 machine guns.

If it has a boat tail bullet (has an angled base, looks like a boat from the side) then it is M118. If it has a open tip bullet and a headstamp that says LR on it then you have the new M118 Long Range. Doubt if you have this stuff as it is very hard to get. Just ask Rick Boucher!

Did old white box M118 say "Match" on the head stamp boyz? Can't remember. I know it had LC and the year with no NATO crosshair symbol. M118 special ball has a little crosshair stamp which is supossed to mean it is a standard NATO load. (There is no such thing by the way. Ask me about the difference between Austrailian, Brit, Canadian and US 5.56 NATO ball sometimes.)

Some/most lots of M118 special ball are known for fliers. It was not made to match specs. M80 is supposed to have a certain "inaccuracy" built in as you don't want a M60 LMG to group real tight.

Anything else guys?

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:46:47 (EDT) 

Once again Gooch has stirred the shit!!!!

He is out of here!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EDT) 

Dave - To answer your question, I would never again buy another set of Steiners due to the cost and the low return on the cost. While you may "sense" a better quality in the Steiner over the Tasco, you probably wouldn't note a real difference. As I stated earlier, they have great clarity with very low abberation on the edges. Under normal circunstances you will NOT be disappointed. Under extended observation in low light situations, the Steiners will win due to a greater claity. Question, is that clarity worth the $600.00. I don't think so, but that is my opinion. Find someone that owns a pair and try them.

Gooch - I knew you'd answer sooner or later. I too do not remember if the M118 NM was head stamped Match. I could walk out to my "cache" and look, but that would spoil the memory games! If he is using Lot # 086-001 then he will be lucky to keep it within 4 moa due to a Lake City oops in powder throws. If he is shooting M80 ball, then he is ingesting ammo with a built in inaccuracy of 2 to 4 moa depending on the Lot #.

OK Boyz and Girlz (Alex, Bonnie, etc jump in!) Speaking of 7.62mm military ammo, what is the difference between regular linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo and "Overhead Fire" linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo? Gooch, you don't count. That dam theme song Saint Gooch is always talking about is now playing!!!

Gooch - Thanks for reminding me that the Marines sent me 4 cases of M118 SB instead of LR. Like I already have 27 cases of M852, what am I going to use the M118 SB for, the old M60?

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EDT) 

Scott-
What's the "Sports Flash Filter"? And how does someone get if they need to have it?

Ok, now it's time to laugh at the Air Force Guy. A friend gave me a military style sling and much to my chagrin I can't figure out how to use it. Any instuctions as to it's use would be much appreciated.

Russell-
You are going to love this Rember I e-mailed you that i was having trouble seeing through my scope at high power. Figured out why reading through the DR archives last night, when I mounted and postioned the scope it was at the lowest power setting and not the highest. Duh, Live and learn and don't repete the same mistakes, is what an old MSGT. told me long ago.

Thanks for all the info you gentlemen have provided me over the past couple of months. Work in a max. security prison and some days the only bright spot in an entire shift is knowing that Roster is waiting be read when i get home.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Learning Curve, of Bliss USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 22:42:32 (EDT) 

Sarge: To a certain degree I agree with Russ about the your powder dilema, but with you using Vit 140 powder in your 308 for the 165 and 168 grainers, should work quite well. I am a big user of Vit powder in my 308 and 223 and it is hard to beat. I have obtained tremendous accurate with both these bullets, but as you can expect, the 168 grainer out performed the Game King by a slight margin. But if you do unleash those moths in that rarely opened wallet to purchase some bullet poppin' propellant, try some of the Varget powder. As you can see, I'm starting to drift away from the Dupont IMR powders, although I still use the 4895, 4064 and 3031.

Big Al has left the building to curl up next to his bride.

Have a good evening Everybody!

AL
Al Ostapowcz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Terminating Hawgs with Extreme Prejudice in Bountiful, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:35:18 (EDT) 

The 700P DM went to the range yesterday and continued Shilen's shoot and clean break-in procedure. Fired two five shot and one three shot group. Consistent 2.5" patterns (I refuse to call this a group). When it was heavily fouled (right out of the box), it shot about half this size. The third wet patch after scrubbing comes out clear, but when I got home, I noticed that there is still quite a bit of copper at the muzzle. The bore seems to have an inordinate amount of tooling marks and the chamber scratches hell out of the cases. Haven't played with the torque on the action screws yet. Still 65 in\lbs. Plan to try this on the next trip. Shooting Federal Match. Any ideas on getting this thing to shoot sub-MOA? Already thinking about Accumax II. Who can do a good lap/square/rebarrel job with a reasonable turnaround? Not happy with the Big Green.

Now, where'd I put that hacksaw?
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, tx USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:51:53 (EDT) 

To:Dave,
These "nitwits" are right now as I type this putting before Gov. Wilson; SB1500 and AB2560 which can technically ban "ALL" firearms in the State of California. With the way it has been written, you could become a felon for having a penknife on a tiregauge. There is a message phone that you can call and leave a 30 second "Veto" message for Gov.Wilson (916)445-2841.

To:Scott a.k.a. xring
Sounds like good solid advice to me, thanks.
JimmyG <jimg@mlode.com>
CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 01:54:56 (EDT) 

A word about lenses. The quality of the majority of the lenses in most binoculars made today is high, most of the differences is in coatings applied to them. This is the result of major advances made by the Japanese in the method of producing lenses in quantity. The manufacturers most refered to in Duty Roster postings all have good lenses, differences will be in features such as range finding, compasses, mil-dots, etc., and the quality of the chassis of the binocular.

Compare brands you are interested in at the same time if possible, switching from one to the other, and do some extended viewing. Differences in viewing quality will become apparent quickly. If short term viewing is the only reqirement, then cost is not as much of a factor. However, if extended viewing is the norm (ie: glassing for a trophy) then get the best you can afford based on a "road test" of the binocular.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Republic of, MD USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 09:38:05 (EDT) 

al
Alexander Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:11:31 (EDT) 

Rick and Gooch: I am going to stick my neck out here and say I "think" that the white box M118 Match did in fact have Match stamped into the head. BUT as I have fired cases from all three rounds (M118 match, M852 Match and M118 Special Ball, named thusly as it was "Special", like Jerry's Kids) I can not be sure which cases I am looking at, beyond the M852 with the Knurled base! But I do have a plain, unknurled case with Match stamped on it. Cunundrums....
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:30:24 (EDT) 

Scott, I agree with your assessment of Bushnell, I've owned several of their products and tried others, and wasn't happy with any of them. I have one of their spotting scopes and am looking forward to replacing it with a Leupold or Kowa when budget allows.

Gooch: I think you made an assumption on Dave from Belfast's question. He wanted to know "what the military ball ammo for 7.62 is?" which may or may not mean US military. Perhaps if he's reading this he could clear up the matter?

JimmyG: Thanks for the info, I already have been making my calls as my local NRA group does a great job of keeping me informed.

Rick: You know, if you need to get rid of some of those M852 cases I think I could find a use for them... :)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:16:17 (EDT) 

Andrew, here are some simple things to try before doing anything drastic with your rifle. I have a hard time believing the rifle shoots as bad as you say but I suppose a real lemon can get out once in a while. First off, I assume the scope is adjusted for your eye and the reticle is crisp against the target. Next I have to assume you have a solid bench platform with which to test the rifle.

Now onto some quick trouble shooting. Check the barrel for contact with the stock by passing a piece of paper under the tube, Slide it all the way back to the receiver. It should not snag or bind.

Next, with a pencil, mark the postion of your action screws. Carry the mark to the trigger guard so that you can find the approximate position later. Remove your scope and mount.

With the rifle laying in a rest, top up, Loosen the rear screw. Does the action pop up? If not, Reinstall the screw. Remove both screws and remove the action form the stock. Do you notice any wear marks on the bedding? Is the bolt handle hitting the rear of the slot in the stock? You will see a small mark it is does? Relieve if necessary.

Mark the recoil lug with talcum powder or foot powder (field expeidient) and reinstall the action. Remove. Does the lug contact the rear of the slot in the aluminum bedding block?

If the action is not sprung from lousy bedding, reinstall the action. By the way, with my bedding totally out of whack, the rifle still shot sub moa, so you may have other problems. Bedding usually causes odd stringing, but not necessarily really large groups. Barrel contact will cause inconsistency as the rifle heats, but not necessarily large groups. Is your groups stringing? Which way?

If you have a two piece scope mount base, Install both bases. Lay a straight edge across the top of the front base to the top of the rear. Are they aligned? Is there a gap between the straight edge and the rear base when you apply pressure to the straight edge against the front base? Sight down the action from the rear of the rifle. Are the bases level? If not, the scope, once installed can stress the action and the action the scope. Not good.

If you have a one piece base, install the front screws only. is there a gap between the rear of the base and the top of the action? Again, if this condition exists, it can cause stress on action or scope. Remove front screws. Install rear screws. Recheck.

Barrel. GO buy some JB bore cleaner. Completely clean the bore as directed. Do it again. JB should remove all fouling and let you start fresh. Use JB between EACH round for the next twenty rounds. You want that bore naked so that the break in process can smooth out the tooling. You can skip this if you have the barrel lapped.

Check you crown. It would have to be totally trashed to give you such lousy groups, but it is worth looking at. My 22-250 had a ding on the edge and still shot into the .4s, but you never know...

Check the contact area on the back of the bolt lugs. If you only have a very thin wear mark in the bluing, your bolt is not making much contact with the receiver. Most rifles will shoot well in spite of this, but it doesn't help. You want at least 50% to 60% contact in a factory rifle. 100% is better, but unusual.

Chances are bedding is the culprit in this problem. Try easing the action screws out one eigth of a turn. If bedding is the issue, get it fixed, fix it your self, or sell the rifle. If the barrel is still fouling badly after you have tried extreme cleaning, sell the rifle or return it to Remington with a really nasty letter. They WILL replace the complete barreled action if it is not acceptable and they screwed up. Huge tooling in the bore is a SCREW UP. Frankly, if it is shooting into 2.5 inches at 100 yards and your style is not at fault, I'd not waste my time on any of the above. I'd go right to the nearest Remington Repair rep and scream. Insist he send it back for replacement. That is why he is there. Go to the Remington site to locate the rep nearest you.

Hope this helps and hasn't annoyed too many of you for its length. This is my long post for the season...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:18:46 (EDT) 

Russ: Do you ever answer your phone?

Bain: Any reports of trouble with the Hornady TAP ammo? Got some and have had it shoot VERY low compaired to my special ball.

Torsten: Where's my walker?

Rick: Check 6 and e-mail.

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Hurricane City, USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 14:22:33 (EDT) 

Scott- Thanks for the suggestions. You too Russ. For the record, I don't shoot THAT bad (Custom KS .338 shoots Federal/Nosler 210s about 1-1.25 MOA). However, I was shooting @ a range that has an anti-elevation shield immediately in front of the firing line. Have heard that bullets can be effected by passing close to objects but have never had problems with this before. Used JB extensively during first trip to range and it seemed to have no effect. Sweet's cleared up most of the copper at home. During second range trip, 25 passes with Shooters Choice on a brush would result in clean wet patch after every shot, but after range session, heavy copper was apparent.
The Mk4 bases are NOT square, front base appears to be .020" lower and perhaps angled down to front. Sighting from rear, they appear to perhaps be out of level. Slid a piece of notebook paper through channel and it becomes snug about 3" ahead of action, but can be slid all the way back. Recoil lug shows pretty good contact across the entire face of the bedding block. Recoil lug appears square, but out of plumb. Locking lugs show very light wear along edges (40%?) with one good contact patch (10%?) centered on leading edge of right lug and following edge of left. Drew a line on action along stock and noticed no movement when I removed rear screw. Good contact with edges of block between recoil lug and mag well, inconsistent contact with edges elsewhere. No apparent wear on stock. Is the problem with my bases or is my action tweaked?
When I bought this rifle, I intended to have it rechambered and squared, assuming I got results similar to X-ring's review gun. Probably would have had it Blackstarred. If my barrel is trash, does this have any bearing on the quality of the action? Sorry about the long post. All input is greatly appreciated. Seeking half MOA.
Off to fire some AA at small feathered fast-movers,
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, TX USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 16:20:49 (EDT) 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned and is worth a try is to mount a different scope and shoot the rifle. I believe in this enough that I have one scope I use to set all my rifles up, I know what this scope will do, anything outside these parameters is then the rifle.

Dave
Dave Martin <theopair@yahoo.com>
ok USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:15:31 (EDT) 

Scotts right with his advice on the things to check on your rifle. It sounds like a scope problem more than a rifle problem. You can have at least half the things Scott mentioned wronge with your gun and it will still shoot better than that! Have you tried a different scope on it? I had a 223 start shooting bad one day for no reason and the scope had went "South" on me. I changed scopes and that took care of the problem. (Of course this was after another 500 rounds down range and a number of powder and bullet changes)

Sarge,

On your question, I've only had one gun that shot the same load with both the match and the hunting round and it was a 300 Win Mag with the Hornady 168s and the 165BT the only real difference was about a one half inch point of impact change and a tenth change in group size. The Nozler Balistic Tip in some of my rifles will shoot better than the same weight match round!! This seems to be true mostly in the 6mm.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:17:12 (EDT) 

I just missed your post or I would have answered you with my other post. Go with the 1 in 10 twist. I had several 300 Win Mags and they all shot well. I used the 190s in all of them and they all seemed to like IMR4350 the best with RL-22 a real close second. All guns are differen't but it will be a good starting point.
Par <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:25:34 (EDT) 

Thanks one and all for the powder/bullet recommendations and comments, they are appreciated. First I'd like to ask....WHAT'S A WALLET??? I'm so broke I can't even change my mind!!! Now as for the combinations: I've tried the N140 with the 165 (same load 41 grs) and the only thing I remember was it shot a bit high, 1" at 100yds, compared to the 168, but I need to try that again. As to Varget, I tried some in various different rifles, including the .308 and to be honest NONE of my rifles liked it AT ALL! Only other powders I currently have are H380 for my .22-250 and N160 for my sons .243. So yes I guess I'll have to find, first a wallet, then the money to put in it so I can get a can or two of different powders! OK Russ...you talked me into it AGAIN, I'll try the AA2520 first mainly because history has shown that your 110FP and mine seem to like the identical loads!

Sarge slides back in his hide waiting for return fire and any other suggestions/recommendations!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:45:01 (EDT) 

It seems, Andrew, that you and your rifle are fast becoming a Sniper Country “project.” So, whatever you decide to do with all the varying pieces of advice we’ve all given you, please do us a favor and document the results of each change you make, and report to us on your findings.

To Scott: That was an excellent post. I’m doubling your Sniper Country salary.

To Ed: Phone? During the day, no. I sleep during the day, like a vampire. Nature of the beast when you work third shift. I got your message that you called, off the answering machine, but you didn’t leave a number to call you back. Keep trying. Hey, call RIGHT NOW, I’m here!!! :-)

To Sarge: Yes, I agree, our two 110FP Tacticals seem to like the same fodder. One nice thing about hunting loads with the AA 2520, it sure as heck meters well!!!

Note:  I just finished cleaning up the Duty Roster a bit, removing double posts from Al O. and some others.  Hey, guys, look... long posts are one thing, DOUBLE POSTS ARE ANOTHER!!!  Do you guys think you could manage to go for a while without any double posts?!!!  Marius, Mr. Bain, and me are the primary "Roster Cleaners" around here, and we'd sure appreciate it if you'd JUST HIT THE !q#$@%^ "SUBMIT" BUTTON ONE TIME!!!

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 20:34:02 (EDT) 

You also ask about the use of the military sling. I "ass"ume you mean the M1907 MRT leather sling. Giving instructions on the use of "Rubics Sling" through this media is like telling you how to rebuild a small block chevy over the phone. Not prudent. Find an old high power shooter is about the best I can do. Seriously, if any one tried to tell you how to attach and adjust one over this web site you would probably end up with one end of the sling wrapped around you neck and the rifle barrel up your butt. It is confusing.

Binoculars, Those of you near military posts keep an eye out at the disposal auctions. The airforce recently had a bunch of M19 7x50's up for auction. My unit scarfed a bunch of them up for 50.00 each.

By the way Scott it is the M22 series of bino's that have the "catch me-kill me" laser filters on them. It's too bad that none of us have figured out how to remove the filters. Not that any of us would do that if we could figure it out because that would be against regs. Everybody knows that soldiers and Marines never violate the regs.

Dave from San Jose - Scuuuuuse me. I shall refrain from making "ass"umptions based on a question.

Dave from Belfast, Maine, USA did you mean Irish ball? I "ass"umed you meant US.

Well enough salient commentary for tonight.

Gooch is going to get some sleep tonight. Enough web surfing for me. Wait a minute, I know a good Jenny McCarthy web site!!!! Here we go!!!!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, Ar USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 21:11:36 (EDT) 

Gooch: Hey, how can I snag one of these great deals on "jen-U-wine" M19 binocs?

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 23:00:49 (EDT) 

Gooch: After reading your post and article about the Mil-Dot Master, I will be ordering one. You know that for $29.95 it is about the cheapest thing which one can find related to tactical shooting. And if it works the way you said it does, well, I "ass" ume the money will be well spent. And another thing! If you spent $50.00 for those M19 binoculars, I gladly buy a pair from your ourfit for $75.00. That's a pretty good return on anyone's money. Please let me know if any are still available.

Gramps: Nice to see you back again and haven't forgot where we were located. It probably wasn't, the computer. You probably just misplaced your spek-tick-als. Welcome back!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Doublin" my Pleasures here in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 00:37:21 (EDT) 

Steve: I noticed nobody wants to debate weather or not the Springfield 03A3 0r the Enfield #4(t) is more accurate!
 

Sarge: All I can say about your load is play with it and find one you like. I too am on a limited budget so i found 1 powder for three diffferent calibers. I've tried Varget in the /06 and 22-250 i't fine but I can't get any FACTORY info for the .303. I found Factory info with BL(c)2 and I be happy with that. (.750 /06) (.690 .22-250) (skeet@300yds
.303)
 

(A redneck too big to climb trees) Confederate
Confederate <confederate123@yahoo.com>
Possum Town, Mississippi USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:27:25 (EDT) 

You're not the only one, it's just that your name was one I could remember. Believe me, many others have done it too. In "the old days," one member of the Sniper Country Council, who shall remain nameless, but whose initials are "Scott Powers" was the double-post king. Actually, he went about setting new records... five, six, occasionally even MORE "repeat" posts than THAT!

To Gooch: The DRMO here on (Rock Island) Arsenal Island might have some of those binoculars. I've put the word out to a friend who will apprise me when the next auction is. (I know what you mean about "great finds." In my last Reserve unit, when I was a member of the rifle team, one of our guys, who was also the UA in our unit, found a Unertl 80mm spotting scope at the RIA DRMO. Because it was "Army property," he just did what any self-motivated UA would do -- he did a property book transfer from "them" to "us"... after showing "need," of course. Once it was ours, we took it with us to compete at Camp Robinson. That was a NICE scope!!!)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:50:10 (EDT) 

I was thinking of bedding the the first two inches in front of the receiver to dampen the vibes on the long barrel, which I suspect may be part of the problem, but those last two wild shots have me puzzled. Any thoughts?
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 06:50:47 (EDT) 

You didn't mention your ammunition; what are you using? Handloads? Premium match-grade ammo? If handloads, you may still need to find the right load. If factory ammo, you may need to shop around. Since you selected a #4 contour, I presume you're intending for this rifle to be mainly a hunting rig. Whatever the case, don't expect a #4 contour barrel to hold sustained tight groups as well as those of barrels with a #7 or a #8 contour.

Did you break in the barrel properly?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 07:07:35 (EDT) 

Bain: I told Russ where to get TAP, I know it's super secret and only for LE personnel but even you can buy it from the Sportsmans Guide, (now don't tell anybody OK)?

Russ: I e-mailed you my number young-un, did ya ferget it?
I know you sleep days, so do I, called you in the PM, will call again this PM, going to bed now!!!!!! (Teenaged wife is waiting and the Viagra just cut in)!!!!!!!!

Torsten: Walker, one each, WHERE?????????? Has the Eagle landed? Does it fit?

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old folks home, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 08:27:24 (EDT) 

To those interested: Recently, I posted that I have in my possession a (published) letter from a sniper (Army) complaining about the M24 SWS. In case you've been coming here first, instead of to the main page (shame on you if you do), you may not have noticed that I posted the letter on the Articles & Commentary page. Rick, the guy was at FT Bragg, so it won't surprise me if you know him, or know OF him. Many of you wrote to me, privately, asking to see the letter, so I've scanned it and posted it. It takes a while to download, because I used a high (600 DPI) resolution to scan it, but at least it's clear enough that you can read it.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:18:53 (EDT) 

Gramps,
Welcome back!! Boy...Just because a guy forgets where you left your computer you catch all kinds of flack!!

Gooch,
Shawn called last night and said he has a meeting with Major Brewer's recruiter on the 12th and 13th. Sounds as though he might get in with them. They said he might get to go to school in Ark. so he was hopeing you would still be around. He said ever since he talked to the recruiter he just can't quit grinning(HA). (I told him when he talked to them to see if he could take me along) I got Bruce's Mil Dot
Master it works great!! the only suggestion I would have is that you could range smaller targets to less than one mil but you were right on on your evaluation, quick and easy to understand.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:37:47 (EDT) 

SportFLash: The SportFLash is a small disk that slips into the Butler Creek flip up scope cap. It is a honey comb grid about 1/4" thick. It is equivelent to about a 4" sunshade. It eliminates tell tale reflection from the lens. Costs about $7.00. Downside: It really cuts back light transmission. They say you lose about 15%. Sometimes this matters, sometimes it doesn't. Nice thing about the filter is that it is easily removed when necessary. I even put a set on my Tasco Marines (now called Offshores). You can purchase this filter from Premier Reticle, Sparten Supply, Natchez, and just about anyone else who sells Butler Creek products. The filter is a spin off of the Teneabreax KillFlash used by the military. Teneabreax Licensed Butler Creek to sell the SportFlash.

Gooch: Yeah, that was a typo on my part. As an 11H I only rated the M19. The M22 was horded by those unappreciative cretins in the scout platoon. Of course, as it stood out so bloody well, I didn't mind all that much. When caught in light at night, the M22 really did look like the devil himself was staring at you! $50 bucks for the M19 huh? Hmm....So Gooch ole buddy ole pal...drop me a line huh?

Andrew: If your scope mounts are that far off and canted sideways, the only fix is to go to a one piece mount and have a Remington Rep play with it till he can square it up. Do not pay a smith for this as it was Remington's mistake and their responsibility! I know what the Rep will tell you. Unless you put money into the gun in terms of tuning and action truing, he will want to send it back for replacement, which as I said, is what I would do were I you. If the barrel is that bad AND the scope base mounting holes are drilled that out of square, Remington had better replace it post haste! Look at it this way, you'll be getting a new barreled action! The comment on the scope was a good point. Check it. But still, if the mounting holes are that far off, your scope is being unecessarily stressed and that is unacceptable. Toss in the crappy bore and you have a lemon. Return it.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:44:57 (EDT) 

http://www.remington.com/firearms/firearmsfr.htm
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:51:58 (EDT) 

I have a question in regards to barrell stiffness.Does stainless steel offer more resistance to barrell harmonics than say chrome moly steel because of its composition and hardness ?

If this is so,would even stonger steels such as titanium or other alloys (can you imagine how much this would cost !) offer improved accuracy gains over conventional commercially available steels such as chrome moly or 416 stainless steel ?

I would "ass"ume that if an even stronger material was available,that you could have a barrell that was lighter and more durable barrell life (in terms of number of accurate rounds fired) and maybe easier to clean.

Do any of you out there have an opinion on this ?

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada, eh ! - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:52:23 (EDT) 

1 in 10 twist for 300WM w/ 190gr bullets. By the way, will you be handloading?

Scott: That post, re: Andrew's rifle was a great read. I read things like your post, I learn stuff. Thanks. Your post needs an acronym and a title:
B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M. pronounced "Bits-pissersam".. which means: Basic Triage & Diagnostic Protocol for Successful Proactive Paradighm-Shift Regarding Rifle/Scope Accuracy Malaise.

That ought to at least give mid-management level Dilberts a bit of a bodyhard..

Well, I missed my last two electroshock appts. and have had too much coffee this morning. Plus sleeping in the street next to my mailbox waiting for my Mildot Master to arrive puts me on edge.
 
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 10:13:45 (EDT) 

Jeff B from Canada: As far as barrel stiffness goes, a 26 or a 27 inch tube on your action is ok but is not really necessary for a 308. I would recommend a 24 incher,in a #6 or #7 contour and fluted for better cooling. I also think that a stainless steel barrel is slightly softer than a Chrome moly barrel. The last time I inquire from Douglas, this is what they told me. But this was quite some time ago and I could be wrong. You know the miind is a strange thing. Gramps - you can relate, Im sure.

Jeff A from GA. Bits-Pissersam HUH?????

Notice that GOOCH is keeping awfully quiet sittin' on them thar Binoculars.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Lookin Out my Back Door in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 11:13:16 (EDT) 

Any way:
1750 Brown Bess 80 yard accuracy,
1775 Pennsylvania Long 300 yard,
1855 .58 Caliber rifled musket 500yd,
1859 Sharps 600yd,
1863 Whitworth 1000yd, cost $500 back then
1874 50 caliber Sharps 1200yd,
1903 Springfield(M1D) 500 yd,
1937 Model 70 Winchester 1300 yds

The longest shot that I have read about that was confirmed and didn't use >2 rounds was made by Hathcock using a 50 caliber with an 8x Unertl. 1st hit the bike and the 2nd hit te guy that was on the bike @ 2500yds. Buddy that isn't just hit and miss.

One last piece of history, "War our Bussiness Death our Only Product".

I wasn't sure if history was appropriate for the site, so I'll send this up as balloon.

Question: What is the best charge thrower for getting 1/10 grain accuracy from extruded powders? I keeping hearing culver types are the best. Anybody seen comparisons?

Signed LMGTS(Let me get this straight.)
 
 

tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
FR, VA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:12:59 (EDT) 

In the September 98 issue (Vol 46, No. 5 ) of Precision Shooting magazine, on page 8, an aritlce resides by one Kevin Thomas. Mr. Thomas happens to work at Sierra Bullets and due to the nature of his work, fires about 60,000 rounds a year testing projectiles. He recently completed an indepth test of three identical barreled actions used in this testing process. Two of the three were cryo'd and one was kept untreated as a test base. The article is well worth reading, as the results are well laid out and to my mind, settle the issue once and for all.

I'll give you a short synopsis. Cryo does not make a rifle easier to clean as has been claimed. Cryo does not make a rifle more accurate, at least if the rifle in question already has a quality barrel (he used Hart barrels for the test). Cryo in fact seemed to make no difference at all between the barrels. The one and only positive result garnered would seem to be a slight increase in the accuracy LIFE of a barrel. The non-cryo'd barrel lost accuracy around 4,000 rounds. The two cryo'd barrels went as far as 4,500 rounds and one of those two may go a little farther. But that was it. A fouth barrel from BlackStar was also included in the test and the results were about the same. It lasted no longer than the others and died before the 4,500 round mark.

Errosion was consistent in all rifles with no noticable difference. All rifles shot to with in a .100" or so in terms of average accuracy. Mr. Thomas did make mention of the fact that these were top quality barrels and that it is possible that a factory barrel might show more improvement as it undergoes more stress in its creation. But the end result from his test would indicate saving your money. This would seem to correspond with my FAR, FAR less indepth testing to date which has indicated very little improvement by cryo treating. I saw far more improvements from bedding fixes and truing the action. If you have a choice of truing the action or cryo/polish, true the action!

The report is well worth reading. If you do not subscribe to PS, you can get single copies by calling the magazine. 860-645-8776.

Ok. I lied. The inspection piece was NOT my last long post...but after reading this article, it seemed worth passing on!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:36:36 (EDT) 

"B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M."? man, I like that!

Russ,

there you have your name and acronym for Scott's piece when you post it. If I see a name like that I will just HAVE to look, just to see what the heck all that is about :-)

Scott,

nice piece - very nice indeed. E-mailed it to myself for my archives, printed it out for my files and my safe - will keep this one to be used. Great piece!

Gooch,

how much did you say again it'll cost you to ship one of those binos to South Africa? :-)

Now the South African Army, when THEY sell stuff, you know it is really stuffED!

Jeff B,

on barrel material. If one could get those "stiffer" materials, it would have an influence. All good? I am not so sure. Those barrel harmonics play an important role - else one would not free-float a barrel, but totally clamp it down. Also, it would bring its own problems.
What would happen to the "bulge" one gets where the bullet travels through the barrel? If the material is harder, it will be less prone to bulge, and possible deform the bullet more, destroying accuracy much more than one would gain with the stiffer barrel. Also, if the bullets were too hard, like tungsten-cored, one might get more damage to the barrel, and even have a barrel that pulls a cast-iron on you, and just shatters!
Yes, I know I am now talking real extremes, but that's the fun of this, isn't it?

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 14:18:55 (EDT) 

Barrel break-in was as Shilen recommends: clean after every round for the first five, then clean after every 5-shot group for 10 groups. The group I referred to in my first post was actually the 11th group. Cleaning was with Hoppes #9 and JB paste. To the naked eye, the bore looks clean and mirrored, but you can detect some tooling marks in the grooves.

The ammo are handloads: 76gr H4831 behind a Sierra 180gr SPBT, Federal Gold Medal brass, Win WLR primers. Tried CCI 250 (magnum) primers, but they were flattening and cratering a bit too much to suit me. As a side note, I did try shooting the same load with the bullet seated out just barely touching the lands, which is about .150" longer than "magazine" depth: no improvement.

As you suspected, this is a hunting rifle that I will be using in Wyoming in about 4 weeks.

I understand your point about the fouling rather than barrel heating, but the 3 shots into 3/8" (with the business card shoved under the breech) was with a clean, cool barrel.

Perhaps I am expecting a bit too much out of a light barrel like this, but I have some time yet to play with it. In addition to following Scott's tips, maybe I should try some factory ammo such as the Federal Premium with the Nosler Partitions.
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 16:53:12 (EDT) 

You often hear (especially on this site !) about individuals who wish to replace their current barrell with a custom replacement.People who shoot magnum calibres such as myself can't expect to get near the same barrell life that should be expected if you shoot other calibres such as .308 Winchester.

My point being that I can expect to replace barrells more often than some others.For example,since I've purchased my Rem. Sendero in 7mm mag. in November last year I've put around 500 rds. through it.Sure,I know its just getting broke in.I'm trying to prolong barrell life by seldom shooting maximum power loads and using moly coated bullets.

Therefore, I was wondering if other materials might offer more barrell life than what is currently available.Of course it would likely be more costly but it could very well be worth the extra expense.

Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them.

Hey,just remember that we live in a market based economy and if there's enough demand for anything,then you can be sure someone will be willing to supply it.
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EDT) 

To Tom “LMGTS” Scott: Gazing with awe at the benchrest sport for a few years now (undeniably a rich man’s game), I’ve looked into “what it takes” to be successful. There are a couple of other really good ones, but the Culver model is unarguably one of the very best. It’s also, like anything else associated with benchrest, NOT CHEAP. I’d be interested in hearing what measures some of you “serious” handloaders are using, along with your comments about them.

To Greg: A #4 contour barrel isn’t “toast” by any means, just because it’s lighter than a #8 version. If you go through Scott’s soon-to-be-infamous post, you might find some problem areas. By all means, try some premium-grade ammo, shoot carefully, and see what happens. Report back to us when you’ve done so.

Hunting in Wyoming, eh? Pronghorn? (( sigh ))

To Jeff B.: “Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them.” Quite right. This is exactly why I double cryoed my .338/378’s barrel.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EDT) 

Sarge - Let me know how your new loads turn out.

Stay safe guys
Brent
 

Brent <brenting@juno.com>
hotashellin, Louisiana USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:15:44 (EDT) 

Pat Murphy - You guys that have purchased Mildot Masters need to email bnrobins@flash.net for instructions on how to use it for targets under 1 mil.

In short if you look at the right window you will notice that on the right side of the window, you have mils broken down into gnats hairs. In the right side window you have the bullet drop in inches. Line the gnats hair mils (target mil reading) with the bullet drop inches (used in this instance as target size) and read the distance in the normal place. Viola!! Bruce Robinson can email you a sheet to add to your manual if you email him. He doesn't relate directions using such colorful terms as "gnat hairs" but it is a bit clearer.

mrbullet - Good to hear about the younger Murphy and his endeavor to join the NE guard. I know he will enjoy his time with them. Nebraska has a great shooting program. Sometimes I think they are in a different National Guard than I am. Let me know if he comes down here. Tell him to have his ghillie done prior to arrival. He'll get an extra few hours of sleep if he does.

Speaking of sleep I think I shall obtain some of said sleep.

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:18:37 (EDT) 

the blue and yellow shotgun company will have production samples in three weeks. brace for impact !

ende
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 06:43:43 (EDT) 

der Eagle has gefallen out of zee schky !

It fit´s, thank you, what do I do about people staring at me ?? I´ll send you all the babes that I cant handle.

The walker is hung up in customs, I need export permission since it contains material for LE and Mil only. e.g., the Martin Baker seat cushion, and the Huffer APU ! They cant figure out what the Camo Jell-O (tm) fed vulcan is for eather.

I´ll keep you posted BTW our Nauga pup is comming along
nicely.
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:11:34 (EDT) 

out of my TM30-606 German phrase Book,

ZINT zee SHARF-sheet-sa ? KAW-men!

Ende
Torsten
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:20:12 (EDT) 

Djengis Kahn set up two memorials for one of his archers somewere along the Silk Road in Mongolia (I think). One stone was placed were the arrow was fired from and the other were the target were hit. The distance between the stones are something like 600 or 900 meters (can't remember). Saw this many years ago in a documentary about the Silk Road. Not bad with a bow and arrow!

To Scott Powers: Have you received my snailmail? Sent it last friday, airmail.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 09:20:49 (EDT) 

To ALL,
I know this will start one Heck of a responce and fight but here goes, I had a new Schneider 308 bbl put on my 308 this summer and at first I had problems with a land fouling at the end of the bbl. It just wouldn't come clean for the last inch or so. So I would get out the JBs and after a few passes it was gone until the next cleaning. Finally I called Mr.Schneider and told him about the problem and that I kept getting a flyer almost all the time. He asked me about the break in and the cleaning procedure and had no problem with it until I told him about the JBs and he said eveytime you use JBs you will need to start the break in process allover again because your gun will foul more until its made its "Bond" with the copper. I of course doubted him and tried it for myself and found that it would indeed take longer to clean and had more copper fouling until it was shot in again. Well there it is I'am ducking for cover so fire away!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 10:49:14 (EDT) 

Take heart though. If you are determined to keep your rifle, a good smith can fix the problem by using a one piece base. One explained it to me but I'd be hard pressed to pass the knowledge along. Al?

Oh yeay, before I forget, I left out a part in the troubleshooting piece. Reinstall the action in the stock, torque to spec. Install the scope mounts and scope. Remove the rear action screw. Does the action move or pop out at the rear? A good strong scope base can stress an action if the scope mounting holes in the receiver are not true OR if the base is not true. Check 'em both.

LeMay: Nope. I do not have a mil-dot master. Till someone sends me on out of the goodness of their heart (HINT HINT), I will not be getting one. I am tapped out. I had to buy another case of Fed GM for next week.

JB: Pat, your not starting a fire storm. JB is pretty harmless to a bore and may even assist polishing it, but no one should use it for regular daily cleaning. I use it about every 50 to 100 rounds. Guys who moly really need it to remove the hard carbon rings that can form near the chamber if they are slacking in their regular cleaning and relying on moly to keep things tidy.

TorF: Yes Sir! Many thanks. I got it yesterday. Interesting magazines!

Hey Torsten! How about emailing me an English translation of Der Panzer Lied (Lied der Panzertruppen)?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 11:49:13 (EDT) 

back on August 11, 1998 at 14:53:14, you made the following statement about annealing:
"Then get the old Butane torch and heat the case necks, but do NOT dump them in the water !
Let them cool and you have soft necks again ready for sizing."

Now this is contrary to almost all I've seen on annealing. Normally one is advised to DUMP them into the water - very seldom the opposite. Why would you NOT want to dump the brass? I must say, I am no expert, and have never done this yet.
From the little bit I learnt about metallurgy I seem to remember that if you let the material being heat-treated cool down by itself you are not really achieving anything - the molecules will just re-arrange themselves as they were before. That is unless you place them under some kind of force while cooling down - like a magnetic field to align them.
If one dumps them into the water, or cools them down by any other means other than normal subjection to room temperature, only then does one get a real change in the molecular structure. This happens because the structure is "frozen" as it was at that specific temperature before you dumped it. Or are those second year material strengths courses I did 15 years ago faded from memory too much? Or did the wrong stuff stick in memory? This wasn't my favourite subject, although I have often had thoughts of kicking my own butt for that!

Gooch,
on August 11, 1998 at 19:14:26, you said:
"Had a good posting written up twice and my AOL went tits up twice. Any good suggestions on another internet service!!"
I've seen this statement more than once here on the Roster. One solution for this would be to write your entry in a Word Processor like Russ, where one could also use the spell-checker ( Scott - HINT! HINT! HINT! :-) ) That way you can save it and just cut-and-paste again into the Roster.

Oh yes, almost forgot: SPR
It is only being released here on September 18 - I will HAVE to go see it. Haven't been to the movies for quite a long time. Not sure if I should take the wife along - 6 months pregnant. It might be too much for her! I think it will upset her too much. ( And of course then she can't see me cry - as that seems to be the order of the day :-) )

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, GAUTENG, RSA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:10:21 (EDT) 

To TorF: Regarding the long archery shot, all I can say is that it must have been a no-wind day. Or... maybe it was a “thin-wind” day. Hmmm.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:21:47 (EDT) 

Pat - On the ghillie,

1) Use a boonie hat with a wad of netting long enough to drape over the scope of the rifle when in firing position. Go for the Jon Bon Jovi look. (Ask Junior he'll know what I'm talking about. For us old guys it's the Farrah Fawcett look.)

2) Use a two piece set of BDU's for the uniform.

3) For a school ghillie it is okay to sew the netting on the back of the uniform and tie the burlap into the net. Make sure that the burlap isn't long enough to get caught up under your body when crawling. Have someone put the suit on then lay on thier belly, then trim around it.

4) Color is to personal taste, I prefer a mauve top, chartruse bottom and, if it after labor day, a tasteful pair of robins egg blue pumps with a matching drag bag. Seriously, the color is dependent upon the prevelent vegetation in the AO. Try to keep the artifical colors a tad light and darken it with NATURAL VEGETATION to match the area. Mix the colors up, don't look like a mono colored chewbacka!

5) Pad the knees and elbows, move the shirt pockets to the side/sleeves and you are on the way. The first ghillie is an experiment, the second is better and after three of four you figure it out.

6) It is hard to build one wrong! You and Junior are smart so sit down, plan it, then execute!

Tell junior to work on range estimation with the mil dots.

Sniff!!! A new generation of snipers.....I'm gonna ....cry.... hold me Rick. Tell me we're not old and forgotten....

I'm gonna eat a twinkie and lift my spirits...

Gooch is out.

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:40:46 (EDT) 

Marius, The story I got on annealing case mouths is if you heat them up then rapidly cool them by quenching in water or oil you will actually do the opposite of what you want and make them hard and brittle.

so is there any verdict on bipods? I sure like the design of the Parker Hale, but if it wobbles...

gee I can't hardly wait, only three more years until McMillan delivers my A3
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:57:26 (EDT) 

Gooch: The "women are loose"? Time to rebarrel; swap out the lightweight sporter for a target barrel. Also, consider adding a couple of inches. That ought to "tighten up" your groups, and you'll find you'll be able to maintain the kind of "accuracy" you desire much, much longer than before!!!

In the alternative, hold hard and squeeze!

Bain out.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:16:44 (EDT) 

Does anyone with a Leupold Mark 4 M3 have anything positive
or negative to say about it? I plan to buy one but down under these items are expensive. I would appreciate any first hand field based comments.

Does anyone else out there find the Remington M700 PSS DM
magazine less than positive to lock in?

cheers all

Darryl Todd
wa Australia - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:44:16 (EDT) 

Add to those thoughts on the Ghillie Suit - Once you think you have enough burlap on your ghillie, remove atleast half of it! Also, rather use knee and elbow pads when you think you may need protection rather than filling up the uniform with padding. With padding and canvas that sucker is stiff and hard to move around in as well as pack. I rather question a sniper that has to crawl so much that he needs all that protection in the first place. In most areas a sniper can use defilade to his advantage and move in a less tiring manner. Once the sniper is in worm's eye view mode, his route selection is very limited. On the burlap color, recommend that you buy natural color sold in most WAL MARTs. This color is very light but has the advantage of allowing for such upgrades as soaking in strong coffee and tea to give a very natural color. Other natural colors can be produced by boiling different materails and soaking the burlap. WATCH your skin! Can take awhile to get rid of the color. Primary camo on the ghillie is natural materails that are changed with the movement.

Parker Hale Bipod - You're paying too much for the name and they are not stable. Spend the money on the short cant adjustable Harris Bipod. Just remember, any bipod must be in a neutral position to shoot accurately. Tension fore or aft will cause a shift in recoil impulse. This will open up your group and once your group becomes bigger than your target, you will miss the target sooner or later. Usually when you need to hit it the most.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:54:35 (EDT) 

Mistah Bain Sah!! You have offended my honah!! I'll see you in court sah!! Don't you know that snipers spend long hours penitrating the bush, in the prone position, with large barrelled weapons to shoot hot loads!!!

Hurrumph!!!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:11:42 (EDT) 

In short, I'm about ready to make it open season on any of you guys who HAVE MAJOR BRAIN DUMPS AND SUBMIT DOUBLE POSTS! Maybe your colleagues would enjoy a little "live" game, eh?

One month. Can we go ONE MONTH without some !#%# idiot screwing up and double posting??? IS THAT TOO !#%@# MUCH TO ASK???!!! Jesus H. Christ!!! (R. Lee Ermey style)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:15:59 (EDT) 

Not bad for a NG guy?!

I'll have you know that when You were in Vietnam sleeping in the mud and lancing cysts I was watching Star Trek and delivering papers!

Just because I think I'm hot shit doesn't mean I'm not!!!

You think that experience means everything don't you?

Wait, this post didn't go well. Uhh....Wait...

You and Bain are plotting aren't you! I'll show you, I'll turn off my monitor...

tyhri now yoi canr se3 mi

fuuch out.
They call me Mistah Gooch! <kdgooch@aol.com>
Grrwood, ARAR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:38:53 (EDT) 

Torsten: Stop sending the babes, 450 is too much for an old guy like me!

Russ: Gonna call when I send this......

All: Source for GOOD 7.62X51 military ammo for a young-un that just bought an M1A, (I'm so proud I could bust)!

Gooch: Yer right about the insect look on those binocs, have some M-22s and they sure do look purty when ya see them at night!

It seems that all of the LE ammo I got shoots low, (the Hornady TAP stuff). Is it me or has anyone else noticed this? Depity Dave???????
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Yonder, USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:53:46 (EDT) 

About your Leopold Mk 3 scope. One of the best in the world. Perfect tracabillity, and crystal clear. Well worth the dinars and shekels and geld you spend for it. Oh go ahead go for it, You won't regret it. You may after your wife finds out, but what the hell, she'll find some other reason to get pissed at you, so go ahead and get it and tell her "AL" said it was OK. (Just don't give her my address.)

Russ: Lets catch that perp who keeps on double posting and bolt his scrotum to and oak chair. Sorry, its just the full moon!

al
 

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Starry Starry NIght, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:17:57 (EDT) 

Darryl: We would answer your question about hearing loss, but we can't hear you!

And Gooch: Oh what a man!!!! Only to be able to find someone like you with robin egg blue pumps in the woods. Tee-hee-hee, goodness, goodness, I say with a limp wrist.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Starry Starry Night #2 in Moon Drenched, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:32:58 (EDT) 

Love that M3A!! Can't think of a single reason, other than can't afford, not to own that scope. Course I could be just a little prejudiced towards that scope!

Al - I really don't know about the Versa Pod. Never used it or even seen it in real life. The only fault I have had with the Harris is a few have broken at the head where it mates with the fore stock. Of course this could be ham fisted military types causing this to occur.

Darryl - Don't know about hearing loss with syn stocks. I do know that when I retired from the military I was authorized free hearing aids. Don't know if shooting syn stocks caused it or if being flung through the air from a few close proximity explosions caused it.

Russ - Your prozac man your prozac!!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:59:05 (EDT) 

To Rick: I "did" take my Prozac. You should see me on the days I forget. Remind me to tell you about the time I was riding my motorcycle, and some assinine female type cut me off with her pickup truck, and I had to do some very quick and fancy weight distribution on the left foot peg, and then I caught up to her at the next stoplight, and started to explain, rather loudly, the error of her ways, and she rolled up her window, thinking that she could avoid listening to me, and I took my fist and... well, um... yeah... we'll get drunk and I'll tell you all about it. Honestly, I'm MUCH calmer now.

On bipods: If you're a fan of the Parker-Hale model, but not a fan of the price, allow me to recommend the Chinese, made-with-prison-labor M-85 from Model One Imports. At $60 or so (I bought two of them at the Indy 1500 gunshow earlier this year), they're DARN sturdy, and you're not paying for the price. Hey, you KNOW they're made right, because the hired help gets executed if they screw up. Another recommendation from Scott, for which I'm glad. Let's see... to date, he's turned me onto B&L Elite 4000 scopes, M-85 bipods, and most recently the Nikon 4x scope. What a swell guy!!!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 02:48:37 (EDT) 

Gooch: Robins egg blue pumps, I knew the Murines were funny but really........

Al: Scrotum nailed to a chair, my kind of guy....

Russ: Are ya awake???????

Rick: Gonna need ya to e-mail me again about building gillie suits, I cleaned out my files and you were in them, (I'm old ya know)!!!!
 

Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Sunny SC, USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 09:44:33 (EDT) 

How's the .338/.378 coming along ?Has your load development produced satisfactory results so far ?Is the H50BMG powder producing the velocity you are looking for ?

By the way,I ordered a Richard's Microfit Benchmark stock for my 6.5 x 55mm project.I didn't mind the look of the Tactical model but thought the latter would be more versatile for hunting/target shooting.

Several of my shooting friends have the Wildcat thumb hole sporter model.Up til then I'd never heard of them before.The laminate on their stocks is so attractive I just knew I had to have one.

I guess you could say that Richard's is probably one of those companies that although they build great product,their name recognition isn't as widely known as some of their competitors.

Gooch: STOP beating around the bush !Hey,just remember its o.k. to fire hot loads as long as your not firing any blanks.I understand that this may cause a shortened barrell life.By the way,all you Snipers out there better make sure that your triggers are adjusted properly or you might have an accidental discharge !
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 10:37:00 (EDT) 

On bipods - I concur with sister Boucher on the short Harris with the built in tiltability. I use the standard issue Harris w/o tiltability and do just fine. Takes only a second to adjsut legs or dig, dig, dig one in a tiny bit in the dirt.

Ricky told me a story about him, a friend of his and a bidet over in Saudi. Tsk tsk ricky. It'll be puiblished inthe next Cosmo.

Gooch out and feeling manly today.

Sometimes this SC is just too much fun!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Banjo twang!, Soowee! USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 11:33:05 (EDT) 

If you want to try racing cars do you sell the kids and buy an INDY car? NO! Enter the Savage question. $300 barrel,use a $300 scope=$600 test bed. Try it, if you like it then step up but not till you are equal or better the the equipment.

If we fail to learn from history we are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes. Well sorta. Make it Simple, trained people to use the trick stuff are hard to come by in protracted conflict. I could not pick up a fallen mans M41/300 zoomer and hit the horizon as well as my battle gun could with all the details you need to know. Enter the history part. #4T Enfield, when zeroed ant Tommy could twist the well placed and marked knobs, yes top and left just like you pay extra for on Leupold's Mk.X-25X75X80mm GPS, and then hit some thing. Made of brass sewer pipe this same scope on the L42A1 has ranging klick up that actualy work even for me to 800yrds. Actually it works best out to 400 but then you get your Robar 50 years old and do better.

The point befor I get too much windage here. Is there any body else out there who shoots these older guns and would like to chat about the or are we doomed to bench race imaginary or dream guns.

Lets start here.
1. G-43/Zf4, I have a shot drift on the 3rd. shot. Seems to put two on the aim point the pull the last 2'' ridht. Any comments or ideas on this. 1960's steel case ammo.

2.Sav.110FP/ART-MPC with the standard stock when draged over hill and dale can put two cold shots in the hole at 200yrds but throws the next two high right about 2'' but in the same hole? Roll my own for this one,IMR4064 etc.

3.Mosi 91/30PU, now this one is fun, a Sharp Shooters gun at best, can hit the bottom of a soda can at 100yrs with yellow tip surplus 180g bullets but when I roll 148g fmj .310 bullets in Lapua brass the hills are safe? Any help here?

I personaly have some 400yrd confirmed shots but I am in no way a marksman or even a target shooter. This is for fun and sadly at a time in my life when I start to hit stuff my hair keeps falling out and getting in the way.

MJ

Monterey Jack <MontereyJack@kmenterprises,com>
Calif. USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 13:47:30 (EDT) 

I haven't tried the Hornady TAP yet, But, you may want to consider that it's not that it shoots low, what happens when you get OLD is it's hard to keep it up.

Get more rest and take your viagra.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Just leaving for some dove hunting in, Restful Weest Virginia USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 16:58:49 (EDT) 

Glad you ordered the Richards stock. I actually ordered the Tactical... they delivered a Culbertson. I didn't notice for two months (during which time I'd pretty well "bought" the thing, by working on the stock). Still, in hindsight... for "this" gun... I'm glad I have the stock that I do. I'll be including it in my upcoming stock review. You guys who don't mind a little work with sandpaper, you're missing the untold deal of the year by not getting a Richards stock. When you see my stock (I'll include photos with my article), you're going to say... "He only paid $99 for that stock?!" Oh, and he delivers a bit sooner (i.e., this century) than does McMillan. Not knocking McMillan on their product, though... I love their stocks... but I just LOVE a laminated stock -- they're strong AND beautiful.

No, Jeff... Richards is a small, unheard-of company. Good. Keeps their deliveries pretty well on time. Shhhhh... don't tell anyone else about them, okay?

On bipods: I notice a (partial) picture of my M-85 bipods on the current Precision Shooting magazine. Concerning a "neutral" firing position (Rick?) with bipods, how do you know you're at the same "neutral" position for each shot? I'm not trying to be silly, but really, how do you know -- shot to shot -- that you're at top-dead-center for each shot? Argh! This consistency stuff can drive a guy nuts!

To Monterey Jack: I shoot the old stuff (well, custom guns built on "old" actions). They're cheap, but they work. On the "test bed" idea. Of course, "I" like it... but you'll be assaulted for it because, oh gee, it's not a REMINGTON action -- that is, it isn't "round" -- and you can't throw the thing on a lathe and true the thing up. Shame, shame. How could you even SUGGEST a Savage?!!! (Hey, I've done it on two Savages, and it works for ME! As always, your mileage may vary.) On your 110FP Tactical load -- just "MY" two cents, but... IMR 4064 shot like ca-ca in mine. What other powders did you try? If you haven't done "serious" work with Varget and N-140, give them a try. You might see good things happen with 43.0 grains of Varget or 41.0 grains of N-140 (with Sierra 168 Match Kings). In general, we're not a "benchrest" crowd here. Many of us are strapped for cash and look for inexpensive ways to outshoot the big boys. We all have different income levels, and we're all interested in what is working for the other guy. So jump in and contribute. "Sin boldly, for Grace is abundant."

To Mike Miller: You can hope all you want, Mike, but until you tell us if you're using your 175s in a .308 Winchester, .300 Winchester Magnum, or a .30-06 Springfield, and what the barrel length is, and how far you plan on shooting... well, you're probably not going to get much "specific" help. Let us know what you're using and we'll try to help you. Sure, I could presume you're using your moly-coated 175s in a .308 Winchester out to 1,000 yards... but I'd rather hear exactly what your situation is.

To all: I already knew of Roger Johnston's demise, but Dave Brennan wrote a fairly nice obituary in the current issue of PS. I'd spoken to Roger on a couple of occasions, over the phone. Nice guy. He could easily run your phone bill up, but you never seemed to mind because he was so enjoyable to talk to. He was an easy-spoken man, very intelligent, and very friendly.

Update on the ".35 Bear Buster" -- I now have 50 rounds of shoulder-breaking .35 Bear Buster rounds, ready to run through the rifle; 53.0 grains of AA 2520 under a Sierra .35 caliber 225-grain Game King in a .444 Marlin case necked down to .35 caliber. The entire rifle weighs, I'm guessing, 7.5 pounds, including scope. Don't try this at home, kiddies. Total cost for the Enfield #4 Mk 1 action, Ramline stock, Wilson (Midway) barrel, Nikon 4x scope, and Leupold mounts and base: about $240. Gunsmithing was free (refer to truck comment earlier). Load data should ("should") mimic .35 Whelen loads. Stay tuned.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 03:06:34 (EDT) 

Russ: Title of your last e-mail??????? I resemble that remark.......

Out here and off to bed!!!!!!!
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Viagra City, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 08:33:12 (EDT) 

Steve lots of good deals on M-39's, if Star Line get some brass out soon??? I'm getting pulled 147g Bulgarian bullets for $8 per. 100, at .310'' they also work in .303 Enfields.

So? Who else is shooting G-43/Zf4's?? The 8mm has a great history in sharpshooting.

MJ
Monterey Jack <montereyjack@kmenterprises>
Prundale, Calif. USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 11:54:06 (EDT) 

Can you imagine slugging around a shouder fired weapon with abarrell length between 35"-42" ? Definitely a bench gun if I've ever heard of one !
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 12:07:17 (EDT) 

Darryl,
If you dont want to lay out the bucks for the MK-4 the new 3.5X10 Long Range is a good alternative for about $400 less. I have one and its great!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 13:52:49 (EDT) 

On the Mosin-Nagant: Surgical secret of the century (Finnish models, that is).

To Jeff: I agree with you. However, I wish I’d have gone with a 32-inch barrel instead of a 30-inch. Oh, well... I’ll make do. As for carrying around the heavy stuff (something I know about, trust me), Butler Creek makes a version of sling that is like a “shock absorber” -- I have one on Bwana, my heavy-barreled .416 Remington Magnum... which, oh by the way, is in a laminated Richards thumbhole stock.

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 19:18:03 (EDT) 

OK some of you wanted to know how the search for a "hunting" load with the Sierra 165 gr GameKing for my 110FP went. Well here goes:
As per my exalted Editor-in-Chief, who, when it comes to 110FP's hasn't steered me wrong yet, I bought some Accurate Arms AA2520. The Sierra 4th edition Reloading Manual lists this powder at 43.5 grains as their load of choice for hunting with the 165GK. Being prudent I started my loads at 41.5 then 42.0,42.5,43 and 43.5. At 100yds the 42.0 shot almost as well, I won't argue, as any of my handloaded match rounds! 5 shot group was right at 0.73", as measured with calipers, outside edge to outside edge. NOT BAD for a "hunting" round! Using my Mildot Master and the ballistic table I have for my 168gr match loads (next range session I'll chrono this load and get the correct ballistic table printed up)I dialed in and proceded to decimate the soda can population, that someone had left, at 200yds. Not to shabby! This load is a definate "keeper"!

Sarge slips back to his hide and waits.

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 20:55:07 (EDT) 

GOOCH - Don't you dare relate that lie! It's all lies guys, don't believe that evil Gooch!

Reference recycled actions - Some of the best and most durable weapons are made on "old" actions. Never discount them. You would be doing yourself a great disservice. Myself I like the 03A4, Confederate, depends on what your tastes are and what you are used to. The Enfield was more popular due to less jamms and ease of maintenance. Only the Marines really liked the Springfield 03. The Army used mostly the Enfields. As far as the Nagant goes, it is still seeing action as a sniper rifle in many parts of todays world and to under estimate it's accuracy is a one way ticket home in a body bag. The carbine model is NOT a fun gun to shoot though!

Gramps - Did you say you lost that babbling on the Ghillie Suit? I'll have to sit down and write one on a word processor so you can save it to a regular file. What do you use on your computer?

Hold hard guys or it will be a long night!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:21:29 (EDT) 

P.S. Please Help
Pickett <PHarris168@aol.com>
lost in the hills of, TN USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:54:41 (EDT) 

Rick: Check e-mail......

Torsten: Got walker, paid many $$$$$$$$$$ under the table to customs for it, it had better be worth it!!!!!!! :-)

Russ: DS or SH??????? Your call.......

Bain: I think I sent you e-mail???????

Gooch: Need some of that skin stuff, what's the price????

Out here

Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Over Yonder, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 23:08:13 (EDT) 

Anyway, I would start w/ 43.0 gr of N140 and increase in 0.5gr increments up to 44.5gr. This is close to the edge if you look at the literature, however, moly's presence is supposed to decrease pressure, so an increase in charge wt. is necess. to recapture any velocity loss. I've gone to 44.5 w/ N140 and 540 and seen no signs whatsoever of high pressure (ie. primer flattening or cratering).

Also, bullet seating depth is very important. For some reason, any Sierra match bullets I've ever worked w/ have given best accuracy when seated 0.010 inches off the lans. That's been the case with .308, 300WM, and w/ 6.5/08. 190, 175, 168, 155, in .30 cal. and 140, 142 in 6.5mm. ALL work at 0.010 in. off lans.

Also, you mentioned 4895 as one of your powders. Is it Hogdon or IMR. Try 41.0 or 42.0gr w/ 4895. And, try VV N135 (41.0gr ) w/ either the 168s or 175s and see what happens. Its burn rate is very close to the 4895s.

The N140 and 135 meters pretty well, too.

Darryl: I agree four thousand percent w/ Pat about one of Leupold's LR scopes. I just got one recently and it's like any of Leupold's scopes. In a word.. magnificent !! Thing is, Mk4 M3 is , well, Al already said it. Either way you can't lose, really.

To All: Seems like every time I read in the Roster, I get more psyched up about tactical/sniper/field shooting. I'm new at this but what I've done so far, I've loved. And so far means: 1. Educate myself. Read, read, read. Precision Shooting, Tactical Shooter...you know.
2. Learning to handload ammo to fit a particular rifle. Great fun.
3. Got a couple of bolt guns and shoot them whenever I can (not nearly as much as I'd like, naturally).
4. Shot in my very first tactical match approx. 3 weeks ago. No. 2 is coming up in 2 weeks.
5. I get to spend time with Hook Boutin. That's like Santa Clause and God rolled into one.. great man.

So, that's where this little moly huffing, moe-foe sits amidst the spinning spiritual vortex that is, well, how should one say it-- shootin' at thangs wif uh fat barrelled gun thet's fer away..

Now, I read about ghillie suit helpful hints, opinions about binocs, articles about equipment, reviews about training facilities, and other, I'll call it, snipercountry-related things, and I want to learn and do other stuff. You know, not only learn to be a marksman, but participate in the other aspects of this craft.

So, somebody point me at another aspect of this to look into. Am I making any sense? Or is this just a touch of sleep deprivation psychosis rearing its ugly little head?

Hey, guys, all this stuff is fascinating, really. And I am hungry to learn more. That's all.

Bedtime, boys and girls..
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Cordite Buzz, Ga USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 01:39:20 (EDT) 

I was in a reserve training exercise last weekend and saw some new sniping gear.

The Finnish Army has now officially acquired Sako TRG-41 sniping rifles in 338 Lapua Magnum. This rifle had the military acceptance marks (A "Tower" stamped all over the parts and supplies) and a military log book for the amount of rounds that have been shot trough the barrel.

The scope was a Leupold Mark 4 M3 x10 with A 338LM-specific cam !!! The cam was graduated out to 1200 meters. I think that they will use mildots out to 1500 meters. (I haven´t calculated whether this is possible with the ammo, but 1200 meters seem to be a little bit short range for 338 LM.)-> If there is enough money, any ammuniton specific cam for M3 can be had. Most probably cams for the 308/175 ammo will arrive soon. Another question is whether Leupold will sell them to civilians. In a PC-world this is not 100% sure which is too bad.

The rifle had a blackened barrel, but I don´t know whether it was a molybden or stainless barrel. Probably molybden. Other additions were a muzzle brake with threads for a suppressor (Army has not chosen a model yet, most probably it will be a BR-Tuote´s reflex-suppressor). A Parker-Hale -type bipod is included as are emergency sights. This model had that version of sights that are not attached to the rifle but are in the pocket of the shooter, or in the field 600 meters behind you :-). Too bad as there is another model available from Sako that is attached to the rifle and which can be folded up quickly.

A night-vision that clamps in front of the rifle is available too, the model is unknown to me, but the old TAK-85, Sniping Rifle Model 85 uses a Simrad 250 add-on.

Received my Nightforce 5.5-22x56 scope with mil-dots last week. It really is HUGE, weighs around two pounds, is 19.5 inches long, and is 2.72 inches thick at the objective. I think that Butler Creek doesn´t produce their flip-up scope covers for scopes with a O.D. larger than around 2.5 inches. What gives ? Where could I buy flip-up scope covers for this scope ? Any other suggestions ?

BTW I know this scope is not the best possible one for a 308 sniping rifle but it cost only 50% of what a Leupold Mark 4 M1 x10 with mil-dots cost here. Another thing is that 56 mm objectives really are usefull in Finland during winter time (that is 7-9 months per year) and I can not afford any mil-spec night vision scopes. On the other hand this scope is a very usefull addition to a multi-purpose 338 LM which I may acquire a little later on. At this time I do not have a proper rifle for it but I´ll wait until Sako brings out their model 75 in a left handed version. This should occur next year. If not, then I´ll buy a custom made rifle from a local artisan. In the mean time I´ll shoot with my friends rifles.

Good shooting
Hexa

Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 03:34:03 (EDT) 

JuSt wHaT DiD YoUr tEeNaGe wIfE PuT In tHaT ChArGe 

sTaY SaFe!
DePiTy dAvE <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
ReCoVeRiNg iN, TrAnQuIl wEsT vIrGiNiA UsA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 09:11:16 (EDT) 

1) Overall length of the weapon is kept shorter with same length of barrel or you can go with a longer barrel and keep the overall length the same as long action. A shorter weapon is not a big deal to bench resters and the like but to a tactical shooter is makes a difference.

2) Feeding of short action rounds (.308/.223 etc) through a long action reciever/mag box gets interesting sometimes. Not uncommon to short stroke a long action or have the rounds get cock-eyed in the box. Most of us single load, but in the case of snipers working in a defensive situation or in CT/CQB type stuff where a follow-up shot(s) may be required you may need to use the mag box. This cost my partner a shot in the Canadian Forces match last month.

3) Longer bolt requires some shooters to move thier head when working the bolt. Once again not a problem for most but for Military and LE guys it could be (concealment and followup shots)

THese are problems we find with the M24 as it is based on a long action using a short action round (7.62mm). Army wanted this so they could set up some M24's for the .300 win Mag.

Skin so soft is good for sand flea's also. Ask anyone who lives in the Carolina's or has worked at Parris Island. Get it through the Avon lady.

Trivia - What is an Avon round? No fair Rick!

Gooch out.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 12:36:16 (EDT) 

Gooch
Gooch
USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 12:46:02 (EDT) 

Hexa: I do believe that Butler Creeek does make Scope covers of the 56mm scopes. I have them on my Sprignfield Armory 2nd Generation scopes and the scope bells are 56mm. Good Luck!

Gooch: In answer to your trivia question, the answer is "a pair of 38s". OOOOOOOOOhhhh Gooch, you are still my man!

Darryl: No excuse of double double posting. Russ has the oak chair and bolt all ready for you. Oceans won't keep him away, so encase those jewels, change your address, and leave the country!!

OK, now for " Al's Gun Project of the Month". I have had several police departments inquire about the 30/338 and informed me that they were looking for a spectacular long range testicle (Darryl - that was for your benefit) that's tactical rifle and they also asked how it compares to a 300 Win Mag. So here is my opinion and the discussion is open. It is my humble opiniion that if reloading is not a concern, I would go with the 30/338 specifically that it is inherently more accurate than the 300 Win Mag. I have personally tested both and have found that to correct. Although the 30/338 has less powder capacitythan the 300 Win Mag, the neck is slightly longer and this is what people say is attributable to its accuracy.
I also recommended that the rifles have a slightly faster twist than the standard 1-10. How about a 1-9 twist to accomadate the heaviest of 30 cal bullets. The velocities are about the same, because of the nearly identical powder capacities and if feel that both are capable of 3000 fps with the 190 MK Sierra, about 2900-2925 with the 200 grainers and about 2800 fps with the 220. These velocities can probably be obtained with the new H4831SC powder (thats SC for Short Cut, Not Sniper Country). With this combinations with the 30/338, 1000 yard shots can be accomplished with the bullet still hovering above the 1120 fps sound barrier level. It is not exactly a 338 Lapua, but then again we have standard Magnum bolt face size (.532). So which one would you guys build given the choice of either/or. Im open for suggestions, because based on your recommendations this is my next tactical demonstrator which I will build.

Thanks for the input!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
One Horse, Two Bar Town in NE , Ohio USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 14:29:50 (EDT) 

Jeff A.
Hows the 260 or 6.5-308 doing? Have you cronographed any loads yet? What was your Barrel length? Have you found any load that works the best yet? I'am getting ready to start putting mine togeather. You said that you used a short action. what is your OAL on the 140 MK and will they fit in the magazine ok?? Sorry for all the questions but they keep poping up(HA).

Al,
The 30-338 Is a great round. Another one you dont hear about any more is the 308 Norma Mag. it was a great long range round until the 300Win Mag came along.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 15:56:52 (EDT) 

Anyway, I asked (Russ I think) about Savage extractors. I haven't had any probs but they just seem a trifle delicate and I'm ham fisted you know. I just pushed out a little and it popped out but, it popped right back in easy enough. So, if everyone seems satisfied that's good enough for me.

Now, about the old stuff (older is better!) What can one do with a beater 98K? Are they cost effective to update or should I just keep it for a slash and thrust series?

O3A3 vs Enfield. I had an Enfield Mk 4 #3. (or something like that) The crown was kaput and it seemed as if 3/4" of the bore at the muzzle was as smooth as a baby's butt. I had my smith cut about 1" and recrown, install a tip off base and Redfield 3x9. After a little trigger work this rifle would shoot moa with Winchester 180 gr factory loads. I have no doubt that it would go sub-moa with good hand loads. This rifle took a deer @200yds.

My O3A3 will shoot 1.5 moa with the iron sights. I will NOT be scoping this rifle as it is too beautiful as-is. Both of these rifles kick like a mule from the prone. That is why I REALLY like my M-1.

Ahhhh the M-1. If you can see it, you can hit it. And if need be you can butt stroke the %$#& out of a bad guy and...sorry, must be the 11B talking.

On short actions: Russ, if your life really depended on the .00001 sec wouldn't your observer just whip out the gauge for cover fire? Hmmmmm...

The double posters are probably IPSC shooters.

I am going to attempt my very first ghilly (ghillie?) soon. Thanks everyone for the postings concerning construction of said ghilly (ghillie?).

I hope this coming work week will be "whine free" so I can check SC more often.

And remember, if you ain't Infantry-you ain't s***!
 

Roy Thomason <thomason@cos.saic.com>
Hate the city!!, CO USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 16:50:23 (EDT) 

In the artical "sniper gripe" in the AFJI the writer complains that the scope mounted on his rifle has a problem with a shift in zero when the paralax focus is used.

what would cause this to happen? Other than his optics being ate up.
Ferguson <rrta@hotmail.com>
WF, TX USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 18:19:07 (EDT) 

Currently they are uncrimped and I need a way of
crimping each round equally. Any ideas?

DT
Darryl Todd <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Not saying anymore - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 19:38:45 (EDT) 

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 19:52:50 (EDT) 

Anyway, the barrel is a 26 inch 8 twist Blackstar Accumax II. It was chambered w/ a .260 JGS reamer. It was suggested by more than one very reliable source to go w/ an 8 twist to stabilize the 140 class bullets.

I have not chronographed any because I haven't had access to a chronograph. TorF suggested N160/RL-19 class powders would easily yield 2650ish velocities w/o any pressure signs. RL-22 or Norma MRP would give even faster vel. So far, I've tried N135, N160,Varget, and RL-22. All have given around 1/2 moa out to 300 yd. One load is going in my "keeper" file: VV 160 44.0gr behind a Sierra 142 MK seated 0.010" off lans. Another is Varget 38.0 gr. behind Berger 140 VLD seated to just touch lans. Both have produced multiple 5 and 10 shot gps measuring approx 1.25 inches or slightly less at 300 yds. Good enough..

These specs for the 142 MK and the Berger 140VLD will not allow magazine fit in the short action. However, the Sierra 140gr. MK, when seated 0.010" off lans gives an OAL of 2.765-2.768 inches that fits easily in to the SA mag. OAL measurements will vary slightly, but comparator measurements a la Stoney Point guage is dead bag on the money for base to ogive relative measurment. Yesterday, I tried the 140 MK w/ 37.0 and 37.5 gr of VV N135. At 100 yds, a 5 shot gp that looked like a .30 or .35 cal hole, I swear. At 200 yd, about 1/2 to 5/8 inch, and at 300yd, I only had 3 rds. left, but the gp measured approx 3\4 inch. I'm not kidding, man, this puppy shoots like a devel from Hell. I beleive you could cram cowshit behind wadded up tin foil and still throw strikes.

In summary( summarising ain't one of my strong suits), magazine fit w/ 140MKs, not w/ 142s or Berger 140 VLDs.

Most promising powders: NN160 , Varget, N135. N160 looking the best overall, but the Bergers like the 38.0 gr Varget load. I plan to try others,too.

I got some data from Sierra for several bullet wts. for .260 rem (or 6.5/08) that has approx 10 or so powders w/ charge wts and avg. Vel. from a 24 inch barrell. If you want , I'll try and get the info to you.

I tell you, .308 Win. is my favorite cartridge, but this one is a close, close 2nd. You're gonna love it. Please, keep me posted about your project. I wanna know how it does. And don't mind the questions at all. It's my pleasure..

Jeff A. out..
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga. USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 20:20:12 (EDT) 

Fred Jacobsen <glock@hotmail.com>
Perth, WA Australia - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 20:33:17 (EDT) 

Bernard <answerbot@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 20:44:17 (EDT) 

Fred Jacobsen,
double, or multiple, posting, or "double tapping" as you refer to it, is merely caused by clicking the SUBMIT button twice/multiple times. It has nothing to do with the HTML/cache settings of your browser.

Bernard,
still on the double postings. Yes, it would be possible adding CGI script for removing double/multiple posts. However, this is not quite feasible, seeing the size and number of hits on the Roster. We are already experiencing response-time problems, and do not want to add to that by searching a document of size anything between 60K ( just after archive ) to 300K ( just before archive ). We would rather just trust on our visitors to not double-post, and alternatively rely on Russ to clean them up and blow his top the same time :-) Thaks for the comments in any case - help is always welcome.

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 03:06:42 (EDT) 

Torpedo läuft .............................................

Figure this one out and you get your Panzerlied !

Ende !
Torsten
Germany - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 06:08:25 (EDT) 

To Rick: Yes, describing touchy-feely stuff can be hard to do in writing -- but I think I have the idea. Many thanks. And I echo your comments on old rifles, and building rifles on those actions. Especially Mosin-Nagants -- cheap, cheap ammo, and damn accurate. Your body bag comment was "dead" on.

To Paul: The folks on the Duty Roster got your problem fixed in less than 30 MINUTES!!! Now I ask you... does this website serve our visitors' needs, or what?!!!

To Dave Jones: Welcome aboard. I'm aware that you New Zealanders have a bit of a "minor" possum problem. I'd just LOVE to come down your way and help out!!! (For our visitors who aren't keeping up on "world events," the possum is FAST becoming to New Zealand what the prairie dog has already become to our western states. Can you say "target-rich environment?" I thought that you could.) Nauga hunters, eat your hearts out!

To Hexa: I read your post very carefully and with GREAT interest... particularly, the part about using mil-dots out to 1500 yards. I'd like some SERIOUS discussion (wake up, laddies) on this. See, I plan to shoot my .338/378 at 1500 yards. I've long ago given up on using mil-dots -- I just don't think it's practical, and I've talked to others who feel the same. "Holdover dots" is one thing, but ranging is another. I plan to use topographical maps for such distances, since I'm a po' boy who can't afford light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation devices. Rick? Gooch? Mil-dots for ranging out to 1500 yards (man-sized targets)? Is this actually a practicality? Thanks for sharing, Hexa.

To Gooch: Good comments on the short- versus long-action debate. (Debate?) Well, good comments.

Speaking of insect repellant (read, "bug juice"), I was doing some research on the Internet in preparation for my May, 1998, bear hunt, and came across some stuff out of Australia that is supposed to be God's gift to woodsmen. Anyone know what it is? Try any of it? Hello???

HEY! Listen, sports fans, this is a VERY important subject. We beat ballistics to DEATH around here... but camouflage and ESPECIALLY insect repellant can make the difference between an endurable time in the bush and an unbearable one. Seriously, let's put a few days or more into the insect repellant discussion. Tactically speaking, it should be of low or no scent, and not leave your skin shiny. And as for camouflage... what say you? Sticks or compact? (Be serious... this really is important stuff, and deserves more discussion here than it has previously been given.)

To Al: I'm VERRRRY interested in your situation, and the way you've approached it. I'd love to go over this with you more in-depth, but for now... where are you getting your load data? Who's used one? Who's BUILT one? What barrel length(s) are you considering? What action? Yes, for "AT&T" shooting, I'd consider a faster twist than the usual 1:10", but first -- call Sierra, and talk to them. Get their input about bullet weight and twist rate, then get back to us (me).

Let me add insult to injury, Al. Why not a .340 Weatherby Magnum? It's not a wildcat, has great downrange ballistics, and plenty of energy to get the job done. As I discussed with Mr. Bain, there are very few reasons to go with wildcats anymore. I have my reasons for suggesting the .340 Weatherby Magnum. Again, I like your approach to this, but I'd like to hear more.

To Fred: I have my browser set up exactly that way. If everyone else did, they wouldn't have to reload. Thanks, Fred.

To Bernard: Marius is our resident Rostermeister and resident Perl honcho. I have to defer to him in such matters.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 08:17:18 (EDT) 

I want to attend one of the sniper/long range shooting schools in the not too distant future to get more involved in this. Don't know the nearewt one to Ga. Storm Mtn. maybe?

What would I need to aquire in terms of the basic equipment to be properly prepared to do this. I have rifle, spotting scope, rollup type shooting mat so far. What else would be necessary? I'm thinking drag bag, binocs, ghillie suit(tell me how, and I'll have a go at constructing my own), however, I don't know so I need some guidance on this matter.

So, any suggestions as to what items are necessary to build the basic kit for doing this the right way? I won't presume to know,but I believe that you guys DO !!

So Russell, Sarge, Gramps, Bain, Scott, TorF, Hexa, Marius...someone,anyone??? I stand ready, an empty head, naked in my livingroom, slathered in camo paint wearing a pair of blue pumps, a fistful of pencils in one hand, a palm pilot in the other, with a bandolier of smoking VISA cards straped cross my chest (makes you wanna throw up, doesn't it?).. So, if you would, hold forth.. and I'll be takin' some serious notes...
 
 
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Wannabe wanting info., Ga USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:00:59 (EDT) 

Russ,
I'am certainly no expert on "Bug Juice" but I do hate things that bite and crawl on me when I'am hunting. So the other night when some TV channel I happened to "Surf" over had this story on "Bug Juice" I watched it. The bottom line is Skin So Soft makes you smell good but does not work well in a bug Hungry invironment.(Sorry Gooch) The only thing that works to repel the little varmints is something with DEET in it.They tested most every thing known to man and the bottom line was if it has Deet it works, the more the better, if it doesn't contain DEET it wont work well!!
Also for what its worth, when you get up into the "BIG MAG" calibers for "Sniper rifles" you have a hard time getting factory ammo that is accurate enough to shoot the long range that you have the gun for, plus the barrel life is extremely short and the recoil will make most shooters shy away from practice and if your shooting at those extreme ranges you really need to practice a lot!! My suggestion would be to make one of Goochs Ghillie Suits with the optional robin egg blue pumps and sneak up closer and then use a "REMINGTION 308"(Not a Savage, sorry Russ I couldn'help myself)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:09:20 (EDT) 

Otto Kretschmer starb 8.aug. 98.

www.uboat.net
TorF
Oslo, Norwegen - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:17:06 (EDT) 

Rich & Marius: Brass Annealing, Rich is correct if you dump in water the metal becomes harder and brittle. Watch an old western. The old blacksmith when he is done, dips the shoe in water. This quickly shrinks the steel. Kinda like giving an extra hard pinch. The metal quickly collapses on itself and this forms bonds that won't break easily without cracking surrounding bonds.

Gooch: Does this Gooch spray work on Gnats. Mosquitoes just bite. Gnats enter all exposed orifices including your eyes. I'ld maim for a good Gnat repellant. Bugjuice Hmmm.

Russ and Scott: Past post questions. Bugjuice is very important if you can't see you can't hit what you need to. That and determining what is adequate loading equipment (especially throwing charges) decreases my time and increases my fun. So hopefully my ?'s won't be considered double posts when I ask them until I get an answer. I prefer to keep my lower extremities portable and that doesn't mean an oak chair with rollers.

So what powder measures do you people find adequate and exceptional?
 
 

tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Front the Royal Oaks, VA USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:32:02 (EDT) 

Here's what I know. DEET is considered the best thing to keep the bugs away. There are modern GI and commercial versions that work well, I use the GI version in the green tube. It is strong but not 100% effective as I can attest from a night shoot at Whittington last summer. There may be long-term health issues with DEET, so I wouldn't use it regularly on a long term basis. Make sure to test it first, to see if your skin reacts and see what it does to your gear, I've seen it melt some plastic and nylon materials and stain fabrics.

Bear in mind that smell is a valid target indicator and many forms of bug juice will make you reek of the stuff. They also may interfere with your own sense of smell. I think that covering up (long sleeves, etc.) is often a more prudent and effective option

Lastly, I saw a post (I forget from who, maybe Herr Gooch) that mentioned using a mix with 50% rubbing alcohol. If this is going directly on your skin, I'd be very careful about it so as to avoid alcohol poisoning.

Jeff A.: Well *that* is a pretty picture you painted. Do you have any idea how hard it is to shoot a tight group while having dry heaves?
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 12:41:42 (EDT) 

go back in last month's archives, I think those for 15 - 19 August or the one before, Scott Powers gave some pointers to LeMay, or something like that, if I remember correctly, but it might have been somebody else. He mentioned what to take, and maybe not to take, keeping in mind that what you want along you have to carry.

I wish that I could make one of these courses as well - not the sort of thing one gets in South Africa unfortunately.

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 15:45:58 (EDT) 

OK Torsten lets see:
Flood - from the front under 7 behind above 5.
500 liter of coffee in front (?? got me on this line)
Periscope up Tube 1 through 5 flood
Fan shoot
Bearing 0 0 7
Tube 1 through 5 FIRE

Torpedo running

Not to bad??? What do I win??? A FREE trip to Germany to play with all the toys!! A set of the new German BDU'S, a Leuopld mildot scope??? Tell me, Tell me -

I all the excitment Sarge uncovers his hide and begins taking serious incoming!

Entfernsich (??)

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 17:39:30 (EDT) 

Just thought I'd let you and all the other Savage owners out there that a competition trigger designed with an adjustment range from 2 lbs. to 12 oz. is available directly from Sharp Shooters Supply. Phone # 1-419-695-3179.I heard the price is $89.95 post paid.Apparently the trigger is a drop in unit.(I'm "ass"uming that you folks haven't already heard of this new product.)

Torsten:

I'd just read that HK has been doing some eperiments with the .300 Whisper reportedly in the new G36.have you heard of this new development ?I can potentially see supressed sub-gun or short range sniper rifle versions (if possible) coming out of this.

Hexa:

I heard a rumor that certain elements of the Canadian Armed Forces are or have been experimenting with .338 Lapua Magnum as a long range sniping cartridge.

I think the only way this cartridge will get the coomercial respect it deserves is if one of the American ammunition/firearms companies chambers this round in one of their offerings.Until then I'm afraid this cartridge will only be available in European weapons such as the Sakos.

Hey !! Remington & Savage,are you listening ?
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 20:00:29 (EDT) 

How does one (student) drop their weapon in an airborne op?
Sounds fishy to me...I mean what was [he/she/it] doing that [he/she/it]-politicaly correct- should not have been...
Ferguson <rrta@hotmail.com>
WF, TX USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 20:34:27 (EDT) 

Sgt. G.

Out!!!!!
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 21:22:38 (EDT) 

Pat: I guess Remingtons are OK if you don't mind the floppy bolt.

Gooch: When I lead patrols, I prefer a little bug juice odor over guys randomly slapping themselves and saying F*** every 10 seconds because of the mosquitoes. It's the lesser of two evils. Skin So Soft doesn't work for me but the regular issue stuff does well enough. Must be body chemistry... Maybe Marines are more disciplined on patrols than we are, but then, I've got a story about that, too.

Respectfully,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 22:42:50 (EDT) 

On the issue of camouflage, I have two questions. Are Active duty miltary snipers allowed to wear glasses if their vison is correctable to 20/20? If so how do they keep the shine off the lens and camouflage them?

And what do you gentlemen (and Gooch) Think of using the night desert parka coat (whatever it's called) as a base for a gillie. I have one in the garage gatering dust and thought that may be a use for it.

And at last my Air Force experience is finally of some use on SC. Don't need bug juice just get a C-130 to blow JP4 exaust across your hide every hour or so and no self-respecting bug will be within a half mile. Just ensure everthing is tied down:)
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <LMcpher104@aol.Com>
Terre Haute, IN USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 22:50:12 (EDT) 

Al: Would also suggest looking at the Dakota cartridges or the Lazzeronis if velocity is a factor. No belts and a reasonably short powder coluever How long is long range? What use does a police department have for a long range rig? "Ass"uming they did, wouldn't they be limited to factory fodder due to liability concerns?

There is an American .338 Lapua. The Dakota Longbow. VERY expensive, but impressive ballistics.

Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
surrounded by socialists, Tx USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 00:11:48 (EDT) 

Well, okay... I'll address that. I issued a challenge a month or so back to Mr. Bain (check the archives). He didn't take me up on it, nor did anyone else. As YOU should know, Pat... MONEY does not a SHOOTER make! Case in point, the #3 winner at the Wyoming Hathcock shoot. Remember? He was using (* gulp *) a Ruger No. 1 in .270 Winchester. Against all those other guys with "money guns." You keep going broke, Pat, I'll keep to my Savages.

I'd also heard the same thing about the Avon product, that it wasn't any good when it really mattered. I agree, DEET is the way to go.

To TorF: "Das Boot" is one of my favorite movies. I prefer the German version with the English subtitles. I actually read the book, too, before I saw the movie. Both are good. Now, what do U-Boats have to do with snipers and sniping? :-)

To Tom "Let Me Get This Straight" Scott: On powder measures, I use a Lee. It's pretty consistent. I'd sure like to hear what you guys with money (Pat?) are using, though.

To Deputy Dave: No, I'm quite serious. Any of you guys who have operated in tropical, deep-jungle environments (Rick), probably know the value of a good repellant. Sure, DEET is the key, but I'd like to hear what has worked for some of you (low scent, application retention, and so on). In a tactical field environment, this is something that is too often overlooked until it's needed.

To Jeff B.: I know about the new trigger, but others may not have. Thanks for the post. Oh, I tested my 110FP's trigger the other night on a scale -- 3.2 pounds, everytime. Not bad for a guy who doesn't know what he's doing, eh? I'll just keep adjusting mine, I can't afford to buy others. Still, from what I hear, they're worth the price. If you get one, let us know. Write a review, include a few pictures, and I'll post it in our "How to..." section.

To SGT Gimmellie: I did the garlic thing (tablets) before I went bear hunting in Canada, starting more than a month prior to leaving on the trip. And yeast. And B-1. I spoke to my pharmacist, and he said I was already doing everything that I could do (those three things). Drink lots of water, too, so your kidneys don't shut down from taking all that stuff (I'm serious).

To Paul: I don't know... what did I use to call you? Congratulations on the Buckmark. I thoroughly enjoyed your "slapping" comment. Not very tactical, I agree. Reminds me of PVT Owens and his sand flea in Jack Webb's The D.I. -- a good lesson for us all.

To Stagger: As I said when I posted it, the "Sniper Gripe" letter is large, and it is that way because I used high resolution when I scanned it, so it would be easier to read. Keep trying.

To Andrew: No, I don't have a number handy, but look in any issue of Shotgun News and you should find an advertisement with the information.

On ignorant gunstore employees: Well, everywhere? I don't know. MANY PLACES? Yes. Maybe it's the same with most of us here (I think many of us on this page have an above-average level of firearms expertise), but I know that, honestly, about 85% of the time, I know a LOT more than the guy behind the counter. It's pretty bad when he doesn't know what product I'm talking about (and it's sitting on the shelf behind him -- seriously), or he doesn't know about the new "such and such" that "so and so" has just come out with, or he doesn't know the difference between spitzers and boattails bullets. It's also lousy when he doesn't know how to release the slide on the pistols in his inventory. I could go on, but you get the idea. Yes, often, the hired help is pretty sad. Not "always," but often. To many of them, "it's just a job."

For Dakota products, we have a link on our links page, if you'd like to visit their website.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 04:17:45 (EDT) 

I don't understand your refrence, but, I use Ben's DEET. I got it in origionelly for the black flies in Maine but I have used it effectivelly in Central Americia (Belise, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Mexico) and in South America (Columbia, Peru). I have tried a lot of others but this seems to work best.

The most tinatious insect I have ever incountered is the black fly, it will get (in swarms) within one iunch of the DEET but will not land.
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Up early for a transport through Beautiful, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 05:12:17 (EDT) 

Ende
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
7C Wolfpack, Germany - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 05:35:38 (EDT) 

To Deputy Dave: Thanks for the tip on Ben's DEET. And good luck on the transport.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 06:13:21 (EDT) 

"Silent-Otto" Kretschmer was an exellent "sniper".

The Laboe 7C boat, U995, has a history in Norway during WW2 under german command. After the war the boat was used by the Norwegian Navy until 1965. The boat was offered to the german goverment for 1DM. The offer was turned down... Then german veterans intervened and bought it. Lots of pictures at uboat.net, one of the best sites on the internet.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 10:00:32 (EDT) 

Marius: Thank you. I will check the archives you referred to.

Dave: BLLAAHHHAAHHHH...AAAHH....AHH...HACK...UH-HUK...HUUKK...HUK... BLAM!!!.. "OW, MY FOOT!".. BLUUHHAAHHH..HA-UUKK..HUHUUHHH...UUHHHH..HACK... BLAM!!!... "AAAAAHHHH, MY OTHER FOOT!!! OH DEAR, MY PUMPS..

On a less phonetic note, yesterday I received the Mildot Master w/ manual, read the manual front to back, did the examples, and am mightily impressed. The manual was easy to read and understand. The device is simplicity to work. The whole initial run-through took 45 min at most. It was clear to me( and bear in mind, I'm one who requires, large arrows on the hallway wall, coupled with crayola stick figure diagrams, to remind me in which room and by which procedure I must "make water" in the middle of the night) what the device can and cannot do and what the shooter must do to benefit from the Mildot Master.

I'm certainly going to work with it a lot more and will find time ( and the ranges ) to do the shooter's part to make work for me..

Anyway, Bruce, at Mildot Enterprises, thank you for your skill, enery and effort in developing this device. I, for one, hope others will check it out. I think it's nothing short of brilliant.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 10:30:15 (EDT) 

Jeff A,
Got your e.mail thanks! I put your address in my file so I'll drop you a line.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 12:30:30 (EDT) 

Kodiak
USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 15:59:10 (EDT) 

Robert Spencer <robertspencer@gemini-plastics.com>
Davie, Fl. USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 17:01:41 (EDT) 

Yep, I KNOW what a pain glasses can be!! I've only worn them since I was 6! Tried contacts but my eyes are now so bad I can't really use them anymore! Had my opthomologist set me bifocals so that when I'm looking through the lower half (NO-LINE ONLY way to go!!) the reticles are in sharp focus!
Good luck gents this is in ALL your futures!! My eyes are sooooooooo bad - How bad are they? - I could have gotten a permanent medical deferment in 1969 when I got drafted!! But doing a Canada just wasn't my style!! And while we are on the subject - eye protection! What do you wear in the field? What color lens? "Sunglasses" or "shooting" glasses? Low light situations? This should make for good discussion!
Question - and I think its one we've kicked around before - just can't remember when - Log Books! I've looked at the one we have reviewed here at SC and it looks like a nice log at a NICE price!! Who makes a GOOD log book at a REASONALBE price?? Later all!

Using his white cane Sarge feels his way back to his hide!

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 20:46:37 (EDT) 

Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com or Atrus@coffey.com>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 20:48:41 (EDT) 

Stagger - Yes Army snipers can wear glasses if their eyes are correctable to 20/20. They usually wear a sniper veil to cover the shine of the glasses. Or they get caught. On the desert parka, I wouldn't use it unless you are in an area of unusally dark terrain, and it is cold out. The parka does not ventilate very well and you could overheat. The base uniform being that dark will cast a dark appearence to your suit. Start light then darken, it's easier than going the other way.

On repellants, what we used is now illegal and banned by every "right thinking" environmentalist. But man is sure worked, and had zero odor to humans. The other trick was both garlic and sulfur. That Will keep you sniper buddy from being too buddy buddy.

On contacts for shooting, be very careful. You will find that sometimes you are looking through one part of the lens and another part the next time. This can create problems for accuracy. As far as glasses, I know the problem, in one year I went from 20/10 to 20/40 and each year it is worse. Can't wait to get "really old", like Sarge, and bi-focales do stink for shooting and spotting.

Can't find it now, but someone asked about miling a man sized target at ranges beyond 1000. Man sized targets past 1200 is not realistic, The probability of error and trajectory will cause a miss more often than a hit. Man sized targets past 1200 would be a harrassing shot and not an intended kill shot. Past 1200 is what we talk about in the "Hard Target" arena of equipment for large bore weapons. At ranges of 1200 and beyond just a 1 mph wind shift can effect the round by 10 - 12 inches. Just as the mythical 1000 meter head shot, human sized targets at the longer ranges are as much a matter of luck as anything else. If not than the 1000 yard competition would have no sighters and the scores would all be 200 with 20 Xs.

Well guys, guess I've jumped in with both feet so I'll sneek out of here while I still have all my body parts.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteveille, NC USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 22:31:38 (EDT) 

Epoxy-bedded the first 2" of the barrel in front of the receiver. After doing this, the first five shots (180gr Sierra SPBTs) through a clean, cold barrel went into 2". Now, with a warm, dirty barrel, I put five 150gr Ballistic Tips into about 7/8". This was a load I had used when I had the old barrel on the rifle and decided to try them for the hell of it. The next five (back to the 180s again, but this time seated into the lands), went into 1.125". Lastly, back to the 180s seated at "magazine" depth, and with a cold, dirty barrel, I put four into .75" with a called flyer that opened the five shots to 1.25".

The big disappointment came when I tried some Federal Premium with 180gr Nosler Partitions: a whopping 3.375" vertical dispersion! I think I'll stick to my handloads.

I also chronographed three of the last five handloads and the five Federals. The three handloads averaged 3278 fps with a spread of 9 fps. The five Federals averaged 2990 fps with a spread of 34 fps! So much for quality control on that particular lot! Not only that, but the primers were flattened more on the factory stuff than my "hot" handloads.

The one major problem I'm still having is figuring out how to eliminate the "jump" caused by the firing pin inertia. I can see this quite plainly when "firing" a snap cap; the crosshairs jump up and to the right, sometimes as much as an inch. If I could eliminate this movement, my groups would shrink considerably. This problem is not unique to this rifle; I encounter the same thing with my Mauser-based, Unertl-scoped varmint rigs. Are long actions prone to this type of problem? Can anything be done to alleviate it, besides the heavy spring/titanium firing pin remedy?

Sorry for the long post, but I don't like to leave out details that may lead to solving a problem.
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 23:03:35 (EDT) 

Jeff A.: Training? See my e-mail to you through Ryan's e-mail address. There is only one school on the East Coast: Storm Mountain Training Center.

Bain
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
West, by God, Virginia USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 23:23:23 (EDT) 

My current bug juice is "Deep Woods" 95% DEET, eh. Never mind the lesser grades, full strength will last longer, thus less movement. Some hunting stores sell woodsy scented repellant, but I don't hunt until after first frost, eh.

One summer at St Charles Range near Winnipeg I observed several people is t-shirts off the side of the line of fire. A local shooter explained they were military personnel testing various bug juices in the swamp! "Volunteers? Right! You four over there, strip down to t-shirts and stop swatting."

A precaution, good bug juice is also an excellant solvent. Therefore, watch crystals and bands, eyeglass temples, nose pads and frames are vulnerable. (I outgrew my one-time issue 'birth control' frames, and now wear metal frames). Painted surfaces and parts on rifles, scopes, binos and other gear may craze or soften.

I have tried a head net, but it blocks out a lot of information, and is hard to see out of.

Ref 30/338 in Canada question: The JTF2 (Canadian Forces' counter terror team) has tested/is testing a bolt action .50 made by Prairie Gun Works in Winnipeg. The company's shooting partner showed a 338 Norma Magnum (?) case this summer. I don't know the guy, so he may not have told about all their customers. If the JTF is anything like the RCMP ERTs, they are better specifiers than shooters and like children and new toys. But they don't have the doctrine to employ such precision shooting tools, they just want to have it.
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 23:36:22 (EDT) 

Someone else asked about case neck crimping. On page 44, there's an article called... "duh"... "Case Neck Crimping." If you guys are serious about handloading, but don't subscribe to Handloader, you're not that serious.

There's also a nice piece on the .35 Whelen, with load data -- which will be useful in developing my .35 Bear Buster loads.

Oh... and the rest of the magazine isn't too bad, either.

To Mr. Bain: Buying? I'm still recovering from the extra $115 dollars from my trip west. Last month's house payment hasn't been made and this month's is coming up. So, HELL NO, I'm not buying. Throw them down a hill? :-) Fine with me, buckwheat, as soon as you tell me how we can ensure that each rifle receives the same number of impacts, at the same points, from the same angles. Of course, the same scopes and mounts would be used. Someone call Remington and Savage and set this up.

To Rick: Sulfur too? Hmmm. Boy, you're handy to have around and I sure learn a LOT from you. Thanks for the tip. (Offline, what was the other stuff?) Your comments on mil-ranging a man past 1,000 yards were what I expected. Thanks for the verification.

To Greg: Those kind of details, lengthy or not, are always welcome here. That's the only way anyone can help you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 01:13:50 (EDT) 

whats with all the aussies popping out of the woodwork?
anyway, i come here all the time and just listen to what people are saying, so i thought that i would finally speak..
new generation of snipers indeed..
im only 17 and i was wondering if any aussies out there know if the SSAA would let people under 18 fire a rifle, so if anyone knows, could you tell me. also any techniques that i could use to show Dad that im not going to be another martyn bryant. he grew up on a farm, he should know that gun training should be compulsory for everyone...

i was also looking at making a ghillie but year 12 sux so i think ill wait to the end, if there is anyone out there who has come up with a good method for beating the heat (besides a camel back coz im too poor) do you think that you could post that?

from the nation that produces the best combat soldiers in the world (please someone disagree so that we can have a decent discussion),
volopfski signing off from down under

volopfski <rocket@whyalla.net.au>
australia - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 01:34:31 (EDT) 

roo shooter
USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 02:02:01 (EDT) 

When shooting an RPG/LAW at a standing taget at say 300 Meters with a 10 MPH crosswind from 03:00.
How much, and in which direction will the shooter have to compensate ?

It´s one shot, one kill, and ballistics, so I figured it was close enough for the roster.

Thanks for the input on the contacts Rick, I´ll test it to see if it makes a diffrence in my shooting.
Torsten
germany - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 03:46:16 (EDT) 

This is my first visit to this page.... Absolutely impeccable!
Kevin Osborne <jkevino@mindspring.com>
Ft.Valley, Ga USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 05:04:15 (EDT) 

Torsten,

What do you want to do, vaporize the guy? Fragmentation not good enough for you? Geez! :o)
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 06:38:08 (EDT) 

Many thanks..

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EDT) 

Yes, the NSW log book is expensive, I won't argue that point. LOD makes a spiral bound data book that runs $20 plus shipping, or $30 for the book with their data charts. It looks to be about the same size as the NSW unit so I suspect that the pages are larger. I couldn't tell you if it was any good or not though, I'm still broke from buying that NSW book. :)

The only other commercial book I know of is Gunsite's rifle data book, which is the cheapest at $12.95. Again, I couldn't tell you if it was any good.

You may be able to find a military one surplus or from some other source, maybe Gooch knows of a stack that DRMO is getting rid of or something but I wouldn't count on it. Maybe some anonymous GI can be bribed to send one your way in exchange for an appropriate contribution of beer to his unit. :)

The last option is to make your own data book, using either your own data pages or copies of existing ones. This is may be the only way to get a book perfectly suited to your needs. If you take this route try to make it as durable as you can.

Good luck. And you may want to camo that white cane of yours, it's compromising your hide. Maybe gramps will make you a ghillie cane.

Rick: when you say that the night desert parka doesn't vent very well, are you talking about it with or without the liner in it? Just curious, I've been meaning to pick one of these up...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 12:24:54 (EDT) 

EQUIP: SAVAGE 110 FP-TACT
300 WIN MAG
165 GR BTSP
REDFIELD 3x12x50MM

Looking for McMillan stock, any suggestions?
JOHN F. WEIBEL <JFWEIBEL@JUNO.COM>
IRWIN, PA USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 15:56:40 (EDT) 

been envious of you precision shooters all of my short life...

finally got a little nest-egg and i want to get in on the action - where should i start?

i was thinking about getting a Remington 700 because it is in the price range that will allow me to also get the necessary accessories. first, what other rifles are comparable to the 700. second, what should i be looking for in terms of length, twist, stock, etc?

ryan...

ryan... <ryan_page@hotmail.com>
IN USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 17:31:20 (EDT) 

I have the Bushnell Yardage Pro 800 and I have used it out to 896 yards (found in my log book) and beyond. At the longer ranges it needs a good target and you will need some kind of a rest/support (I'm over 6 feeet tall and I used the head of someone who is somewhat shorter [Rod Ryan]). I have modified the battery cover to accept the 1/4 - 20 threads of a standard tripod and suggested this modification to Bushnell. If conditions are good and you have a good reflective target, 999 yards is not out of the question. I know that I have ranged targets in the 990 yard range. This unit can be adjusted to read in meters and has several modes to allow it's use even in the rain. Of course objects in the way (grass, leaves, etc) will effect it's accuracy, that's why I still have mil dots.

The main advantage of this unit, in my openion, is that it allows me to practice rang estimation and varifing my estimate. The more I practice the better I get.....I think I've heard that before.....somewhere.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Waiting for the weekend in, Wonderful West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 19:49:27 (EDT) 

On the log book - becareful coping pages from books that are copyrighted. Some authors are very touchy about that!!! Just write down what you think you need in data pages and stop worring about all that data that even long range comp shooters don't write down. Most of those log books contain much to much crap to be useful. Each person has his needs for data. Those books attempt to please everyone. LEA TYPES, WRITE IT ALL DOWN!!!

Torsten - You're getting as evil as Gooch!! You have to aim down wind(9:00) because the wind pushes the tail more than the war head causeing the rocket to move up wind! By the way, your countryman in the class is doing pretty good. He is having some trouble with his English. Unfortunately, this class we don't have any German speakers to match him up with as we did Frank. We're triing to get him some more manuals and books to take back with him at the end of the month. I'll keep you up on what's happening.

Have fun guys and gals!! Alex, you've been quite here lately! Nothing to add?

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 22:02:29 (EDT) 

SGT Petite: My cheesy little Pact Professional tells me that at 700 yards a Hornady 110 grain RN would have about 828 fps remaining, drop 239.6 inches and deflect 78.3 inches in a 5 mph cross wind. Switching to the Hornady 110 grain spitzer gives a remaining velocity of 1238 fps; 127.6 inches of drop and 37.6 inches of deflection in the 5 mph cross wind. Even with this improvement, you must be a hell of a shot to get 2 rounds even close to each other at 700 yards. A minor error in range estimation or wind effect would make a severe change in point of impact. Using a 168 grain Sierra HPBT at about 2550 fps gives you around 1450 fps remaining at 700 yards and it only deflects 24.4 inches in that 5 mph wind for an improvement of about 35%. In your .30-06 you should be able to easily achieve 2800 fps. This would provide better than a 43% improvement in resistance to deflection over the 110 grain RN. That's OK, we all knew you were joking. :>]

Your shootin' buddy,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 22:49:28 (EDT) 

I experimented trying to use it to "semi" progressivly reload .308 ammo for my rifle and it did okay. The powder, when properly set w/ charging bar, drop tube device etc. would accurately throw charges of ball powders beautifully. However, my best accuray loading has always been with extruded or "stick" powder. The larger or coarser the powder, the less likelihood of throwing same chg. ea. time.

I tried several powders and noticed that it became somewhat erratic w/ VV n150. By that, I mean that there would be +/- 0.2 gr difference in chg. wt with random sampling of chg. weights. With VV N 135, I got 0.1gr or so variation w/ sample chg. wts. This ain't bad for a prog. reloader, but, still, it bugged me. I want to KNOW that ea. round has

So now, I weigh ea. charged
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga. USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 23:10:59 (EDT) 

Anyway, Andrew, I now weigh ea charge because I want to know exactly. And I load my rifle ammo on a Forester Co Ax single stage press. It's much slower, of course, but no wondering about error. I get a satisfaction knowing that the rifle handloads are as exact as my means will allow.

Didn't really ask for all that crap, did ya? Anyway, get the XL 650 if you want to progressive reload. That's my humble opinion. The powder measure is accurate up to a point depending on powder coarseness, or is it coarsity, coarsariety,...

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Mashing computer buttons that I shouldn't in Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 23:26:27 (EDT) 

Terry
 

Terry Warner
Canada - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 23:31:52 (EDT) 

that figures, you would spoil all the fun we could have had over the weekend, must be the teacher in you ? hehe!
I found out the hard (fun) way by shooting the 44mm RPG.
The East German NVA TM´s actually list this affect, but nothing in our Bundeswehr TM´s.

I am visiting with Schmidt & Bender next week Tuesday to pick up a new 34mm, yep 34, Tube diameter Sniper Scope that I´ll take to Lost Wages with me on the 24th.

Any questions you guy´s and Mädels always wanted to ask S&B ?

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 02:14:07 (EDT) 

To SGT Christopher Petite: I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO LET GUYS LIKE YOU KNOW HOW REALLY INSENSITIVE (TO OTHERS) IT IS TO TYPE WITH ALL CAPITAL LETTERS! IT MAKES WHAT YOU WRITE MUCH HARDER TO READ. I'M GUESSING YOU MUST BE A MARINE -- CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG. IF YOU ARE TRULY "SHIFT-KEY CHALLENGED," THEN use all lowercase letters. As for the Ruger #1, most of them, for "precision shooting" purposes, are best suited as clubs or canes. If you found one that shoots, consider yourself fortunate. I've had experience with some of them, one in particular that belonged to my Dad (a .30-06 Springfield), and if they shoot, they're fine... but when they don't, they're a bear to MAKE shoot, and most times won't. And for the money it usually takes "trying" (not necessarily "succeeding") getting them to shoot, you could have bought a good bolt gun to begin with. Hey, if you've got a shooter, I'm happy for you... but most of them are, from a surgical accuracy standpoint, a POS... about like the guy whose name is on the rifle. Some people I just can't wait for them to drop dead of a heart attack, if you get my drift. It's really a toss-up who I hate worse: Ruger, the d**khead in charge of Olympic Arms, or "Bubba." And that, coming from me, is quite a statement. If it'll make you feel any better though, SGT Petite, the guy who took third place at Hathcock 2 in Wyoming last month was shooting a Ruger #1 in .270 Winchester. Like I said, some of them shoot -- most don't seem to (not at the level of accuracy that I like, anyway). For a hunting gun, however, they're light, quick-handling, and certainly accurate enough to get the job done.

To Dave: Damn. Becky Bowen at Bushnell told me that the latter is working on a 1,000-yard model. I just KNOW, if I get the 800-yard model, the 1,000-yard model will come out a few months later. Grrrrrrr. I hate these kind of dilemmas.

To Andy: Don't despair. I'm a fan of the .303 British, too.

On the Dillon XL 650: God, could I tell you people horror stories -- oh, not about my Dillon XL 650, but about the Lee Loadmaster that I had before I got my XL 650!!! Long story. Let me synopsize by saying I was NOT as calm in those days as I am now, and after (long story of woe and heartache with Lee Loadmaster skipped for the sake of brevity) becoming "postal" one night due to the piss-poor performance of the Loadmaster (yes, boys and girls, "piss-poor" is a hyphenate), I vowed to not load another round on a progressive press until I had a Dillon XL 650. Yes, the conversions can be expensive, but you have to ask yourself what your time is worth. You can buy the video (which I strongly recommend having on hand when you set up your press) on the XL 650. It's cheap, and it shows you all the wonderful features of the press. I'll never regret having mine. And Jeff is "dead on" about the powder measure -- it's consistency is a direct function of the coarseness of the powder you're using. With this in mind, I recommend using any of the Hodgdon short-cut powders if they will work for your shooting applications. They are more likely to meter smoothly through the powder measure than most of the longer extruded powders.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 03:13:09 (EDT) 

Andrew,
I have a 550 Dillon and I love it!! I load all my .223s on it with H-335 and it is very accurate with ball powder. The only problem I had was that I got to much bullet run out until I went to the Dillon dies which cured my problem. However when I started loading 308s on it I had the same problem, to much bullet run out to suit me. It would go from .001 to .009 for no apparent reason I even put a benchrest seater die in it an it made no difference. I still haven't figured it out so like Jeff I load my pet loads by hand other than that its a great machine. I like it better than the 650 because if you make a mistake its very easy to back up and correct. I have several friends with the 650s and they swear by them, so I dont feel you can go wrong with either one.Dillon is a great company, they take care of their customers like your family to them.

Paul,
Great come back you said it all in black and white!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 09:46:15 (EDT) 

What is the way to go on .308 dies? Redding micro adjust?

any suggestions on what to have in a log book? rifle, load, environmental conditions, and POA-POI come to mind...I'm sure I have forgot something
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 11:21:02 (EDT) 

Torsten: You'll have to cover my spot, I'll be at the beach FOR A WEEK!!!!!!!!!!

To all: If I've missed returning any e-mail please forgive me, (I'm old ya know), I'll try my best to catch up when I get back.

I'll read once more tonight then off to the beach!!!!!!

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Vacation City, USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 11:37:03 (EDT) 

And yes, the only way to get exactly the info you feel you need (and no more, which is important) is to make your own. If you look at the NSW sniper log book review you'll see all the info that is on each page. I certainly don't need all of that, but as far as a commercial book goes I'm happy with it. Oh, I forgot to mention to Sarge: The book "The Military and Police Sniper" has quite a few examples in it of various military and custom log pages, so it makes a good reference work if you're going to make your own.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 11:44:06 (EDT) 

Like Pat,I also own a 550B Dillon.Eventhough it is a bit pricey compared with other makes it is worth the money.I can basically tell you that because of its design,it may possibly the only press you need to own;depending on your needs of course.

I say this because eventhough it is considered a progressive press,the 550B can also be used like a single stage press because its shell plate assembly is manually operated.Dillon sells a version of the 550B specifically as a single stage press,so why not get the 550B progrssive and enjoy its dual use capability.

The only gripe I've had is when I used my Lee.38 Spl. dies in the Dillon die tool head.These dies weren't really compatible with the Dillon die tool head because the length of the Lee die is not long enough for adequate adjustment.When I managed to adjust the dies to suit me,the die was nearly out of threads and the lock ring won't tighten as much as I would like.My suggestion is to buy Dillon dies to begin with and avoid any problems with this regard.

Another piece of advice I would give you is if you plan on reloading any pistol calibres then make sure you have at least several primer pick-up tubes so that you are not constantly stopping during reloading to fill up primer tubes.Distractions are a bad thing to have during the reloading process.
 

Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 12:26:51 (EDT) 

Dillon 550: It's great. Mine throws very accurate charges of the powders I have used, accurate to the point my RCBS digital scale can't tell them apart (.1 grain.) Always verify the charge thrown, esp. if you're starting a new session of reloading. Jeff makes a good point about the pickup tubes, when I load up handgun ammo I usually load up 500 primers in extra tubes. The counter is a handy option too. The 550 is probably not the most precise press around though...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 15:48:52 (EDT) 

The Dillon XL 650...I get an average of .007" runout when I load .223s in Hornady dies. Dillon claims their's are straight but I haven't tried them in anything other than pistol calibers. Sorry for using the "P" word, Russ. The powder measure's slight inaccuracy with coarse powders isn't a big deal. Before, when I had to weigh charges because my Lyman 55 measure was so inconsistant, my wife had to cut orders on me to get me to come to dinner from the garage. Any charge weight variation of .5 grains or less can probably not be proven to degrade accuracy in a particular weapon when the average human is firing it. Maybe Carlos could prove it but he's one in a million. I'd say, for our purposes, the Dillon powder measure is second to none. It's fast and it's accurate enough. BTW, I actually gave away both of my Lyman 55s. Less time in the garage means more time on the range.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 18:17:51 (EDT) 

I've had my eye on Redfield's 6x24 40mm obj. with target turrets and would welcome the opportunity to buy one at a reduced price.

I checked their web page,from the link here at Sniper Country, but it appears to be down(no suprise here if they are now out of business).

I also wonder if you can purchase from them directly because I can't imagine their dealers wishing to bring in any more of their product.

Any help would be appreciated.
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 19:40:31 (EDT) 

OK nobody seems to like the way most of the log/data/record books are setup and the amount of information you're "supposed" to put in. IF YOU where going to "design" a log:
What information would you want to put in it?
What size would it be?
What type of binding - or whatever to hold it together - would you want?
Would you have it on both sides of the sheet or only one?
What "supplemental" pages/tables would you want to include?
Would you use pre-printed dividers or blanks?
What type of "paper" would you put it on?
What type of cover would you have?
What else would you want/need that I haven't thought of??

This should get interesting!

MIRACLE - Sarges sight returns! Throwing away his cane he QUICKLY ducks into his hide and again awaits incoming!

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 19:40:55 (EDT) 

To Ed: You're welcome.

On log books: I was going to copy the one in Plaster's manual (giving due credit, of course), but after many recent comments I'll pass. However, if one of you would like to design what will become the Sniper Country Log Book, I'll make it available on this website. I can handle most formats (WordPerfect 6.1 and 7.0, Word 6.0, all older versions, as well as text files of course). I'm even willing to post multiple designs for visitors who would like a choice.

On reloading dies: I'm poor, so when I blow money from time to time, it's for something that I think is worth spending the extra money. After a LOT of research, I bought Redding Competition dies for my "serious" .308 Winchester loading. They have a very good reputation for low bullet runout and consistent tolerances.

To Jeff B.: The trick for using Lee dies is to NOT put the locking ring on the TOP, but to put it on from the BOTTOM (below the tool head). This is what I've always done, and it saved me having to buy several replacement dies. I had the same problem as you described, but to me, the solution was obvious.

Yes, "Redfield is no more." The EPA shut them down (don't screw with the EPA, guys). The problem wasn't Redfield's fault, but the responsibility for fixing the problem was theirs. The cost was going to be too much, so they closed operations.

To Steve: Yes, I did. "THANK YOU" for zipping them!!! Good pictures. (Helpful suggestion: Next time, use a bigger font for the red text.) You definitely knew what you were talking about, concerning the FUBAR in Saving Private Ryan. I thought it was interesting how you adapted the rings/mount for elevation rather than deflection. Good thinking.

To Sarge: I just read your post, on log books. Hopefully, we'll get some good submissions.

In the matter of Monica Lewinsky, cigars, Ken Starr, and all things "Bubba" -- take it somewhere else. I'm just being proactive here, because Starr's report is now available on the Internet. EXCERPTS FROM IT DO NOT BELONG HERE! If you guys want to banter back and forth among yourselves, via E-mail, have at it. If you're dying to read the report, for which there are MANY locations for your accessing pleasure, you can find a copy at http://cnnfn.com/starr.report/.

Well, I'll be heading out for Des Moines in just a few minutes (Reserve duty this weekend). If I can get online over the weekend, I'll check in and see what's going on.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 21:04:31 (EDT) 

Russ: Have a good weekend. BTW, take a WILD guess as to the first prog. reloader yours truly was dumb enough to buy. Her's a hint: In a very short period of time, I'm jumping up and down in a purple-headed, ax murdering rage spraying spittle mixed with blood as I cursed the day I was born for purchasing... THE LEE LOAD BASTARD .

Mr. Bain: Mr. Ryan emailed back and is snail mailing some info. about Storm Mountain. Maybe I'll get a chance in '99 to attend. Meanwhile, I'll be trying to make ready. I got some preparing to do.. Again, thank you.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Having nauseous loadmaster flashbacks in Smyrna, Ga USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 22:34:33 (EDT) 

Torsten - Sorry man, I wasn't thinking clearly when I answered your question. I'm surprised that your TM didn't have that info. I was taught that little tid bit back in the early 70s.

Another thought on log books. They are for practice, mainly. When on site you would want all your pertinent dope info for your ammo, ranges, weather, etc. on a single card that can be used with minimum fuss. Your range card would then have the rest of your dope info for holds, scope settings, reference points with dope etc. This would make info retrival easy and mistake free during the stress of your shot. And stress is an understatement.

Have fun and hold hard!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 22:43:37 (EDT) 

I´ll just have to get one at the Shot Show and play with it.
I think its a good tool to practise range estimation by eye, dont you think so Depity Dave ??

Rick: the 70´s! I did a presentation on a LAW during JROTC in 78 and should have rembered, well S happens.

34 mm: EAW in Germany make rings for the new scope, more on wednesday.

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 03:42:47 (EDT) 

I bought an EK Bowie a while back and I am having trouble getting it to take an edge. Has anyone out there had any dealings with EK?
Ferguson <rrta@hotmail.com>
WF, TX USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 11:20:41 (EDT) 

Gunner, Sabot, Deer?????
John <jrscar@codenet.net>
of angels, of confusion USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 12:02:31 (EDT) 

"Gunner, sabot, deer?" Are you a brother tanker?

That's the second recommendation I've seen recently about using sulfur powder. I'm going to have to look into it. Where can you buy it?
Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Des Moines, IA USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EDT) 

I've gotten them from New England Custom Gun.

603-469-3450.
 

Butch Fuller <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 15:45:49 (EDT) 

It's been a long time since I last saw the movie to which you referred, but if the scope you mentioned is like the scopes in most other "Hollyweird" flicks, it was probably just a fabrication for the movie. If you're "for real," then give us a name and a valid E-mail address. Otherwise, if you are as I suspect, then get off our website, finish your homework, and do the dishes for your mom.
Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Des Moines, IA USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 16:52:54 (EDT) 

Paul - The compacts are now in the army system and issued. All the "new" snipers get a brand new one with their "Ghillie Suit" Kit. I tell them the mirror is to show them who got them caught on the stalks.

Torsten - On the laser being confused, this is very possible and why the good lasers have a knob to ignore any readings less than whatever you set. The problem is when you have a worm's eye view of the world, alot of laser strength is burned up by the grass, brush, and trash right to your front. Mil Dots, on the other hand, work fine as long as you can see the outline of a known sized target. :-) Measure the target by Mil Dot then set your laser to ignore anything less than 50 meters from your reading with the Mils. This will get you a better reading and confirm your distance.
 

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 21:24:55 (EDT) 

For anybody who knows what is a popular caliber that is necked down (anything from .30 down to the .22's) from standard .303 round? I'm thinking about re barrelling my #4MK2 and I feel the need fer something a little smaller.
 

Confederate
Confederate <Confederate123@yahoo.com>
PossumTown, Mississippi USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 22:53:56 (EDT) 

Thanks
Brent
 

Brent <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 23:05:25 (EDT) 

Lasers- Mr. Bain and I just finished an article yet unpublished on rangfinders. It documents our experience and observatiion of the Bushnell's, Tasco's, Leica's ( Geovid, VEctor and Viper ) XLR, and Impulse II K. All had difficulties with the issue mentioned. I often got wildly mixed readings from the same target due to object or ground interference. You can "tune" out close objects on some systems. You still have difficulty with the width of the beam hitting something between you and the target. This is a real issue when the target is behind some other mass and only slightly above it.
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 23:37:13 (EDT) 

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the UARS stock system yet. Is there a review on them anywhere that I can be steered to.

Thanks and best wishes

Beaker
Beaker <bkir@one.net.au>
aust - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 07:24:49 (EDT) 

Rick: I guess the Army having money for compacts is a spinoff of getting rid of 4 divisions. ;-) I turn in my 4187 for retirement this week. :-(
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 08:39:29 (EDT) 

Now that Russ took away my soap box, about the 30/338 and 300 Win Mag matter. The general feeling is that the 300 Win Mag is the wasy to go, specifically because not everyone are NUTSO handloads like most of us are and the legalities of using handloaded cartridges in service rifles. But I have decided to use an UARS stock for a long Remington action, when they come out. I was impressed with the whole assembly of it and the completely free floating barrel. The metal and stock has minimal contact points which relieve critical stress points also. (Beakert: Law enforcement magazine several months back had a great article about the UARS ssystem).

The rate of twist it think will be either a 1-9 or 1-8 . I'm open to suggestions on this one. 1 in 10 is pretty much the industry standard, but will not accomodate the 240 grainers.

Russ: The .340 Weatherby, although I feel is a great all around hunting cartridge has only a limited variety of built weights available. An Russ, since I've got your arttention right now, Is Armalite coming out with a new TACTICAL rifle for the military which will have a completely shrouded barrel?? Come on, cough up this information!

Brent: Win 70 on a 700 Rem action! I don't think so! Only with a lot of expensive modifications. They don't love each other that much.

Sam Cushing: You didn't mention if your tactical scope was a Bausch and Lomb or a Bushnell. I don't believe that Bushnell offers a tactical. B/L I know does. B/L tactical scopes will not fit Leopold sun shades (or visa Versa) They don't love each other that much either. But BUtler Creek does make a scope cover for it.

Bug off Stuff: I was a Walmart last night and saw some bug repellent and picked it up and saw it had 29% DEET. You don't want to rub that stuff to close to your balls, because you may never have kids again if they don't fall off first.

Hey Gentlmen: I'm outta here. But I'll be back!!

al

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, the Potato Capital of the World in, The Blissful State of Ohio USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 09:34:43 (EDT) 

To Al: You should post your question to the ArmaLite Forum.

To Paul: Congratulations on your upcoming retirement!

To Sam: Bushnell does not make a tactical scope under the Bushnell name, but they do, as has been pointed out, under the Bausch & Lomb name. Mr. Bain has one and he’s very happy with it. We have a review of the scope on this site.

To Jim Craig: JIM!!! Hello??? I need that data I requested!!! Yesterday would be fine. :-)

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Des Moines, IA USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 14:39:24 (EDT) 

Does anyone have experience with ammo which gives a visible mark when it hits a target. I'm thinking of API or incendary rounds which will flash when it hits. With normal ammo it's rarely possible to see bullet impact at over a few hundred yards even with a spotting scope. What kind of targets respond well to impact? (dirt, rock, tree, masonry, steel). I'm interested in military style ammo, .30 and .50 cal.

In some conditions one shot accuracy isn't practical but
making quality corrections to the seoond shot seems like
a good idea.

Louis Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, Arizona USAU - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 20:35:14 (EDT) 

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Pagagonia, Arizona USAUæ

- Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 21:18:41 (EDT) 

Here in Australia the .303 was the standard military rifle for a LOT of years, one of the most common conversions here is the 303-25, using a .257 cal projectile. Drop me a line via E-Mail to the below address and I will give you some bullet weight options for this conversion, I will also talk to my 'smith and ask about other conversion options he has seen. .303's are so common down here that conversions are very popular.
Dave Groves <David.Groves@dao.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 21:27:59 (EDT) 

Ende !

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 02:41:02 (EDT) 

on the conversion of the 303. Just one thing to remember, and seriously keep in mind, is the strength of those receivers. Depending on which ones exactly you would want to convert, when built where etc., you will have to stay within the pressure specs of the original 303 rounds. Those receivers are not made for magnum calibres, and if you do push them, you might get blow-ups, with serious consequences to the shooter.

Remember, keep it safe.

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, GAUTENG RSA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 03:16:08 (EDT) 

Paul I see your point about the suppy system, on the other hand I never saw anything resembling issue sun screen during my brief stay in the service nor was any of the camo stick we got our hands on remotely new. Not as tanker they let us play in the mud very much :)

To ALL: Can any one recommend loads for 7mm Rem Mag. Am also thinking about Rebarreling to 300 Win mag. Comments/opinions (you know what "they" say about those)

Thanks John
 

John <jrscar@codenet.net>
Pueblo, CO USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 06:13:29 (EDT) 

Lt. Richard B McCreary <moorpark@ee.net>
Columbus, OH USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 08:54:39 (EDT) 

Brent,
Texas Brigade does the modification that your talking about on their rifles but I dont know if they offer one thats already done for a "Bolt on" or if they have to make modifications to the rifle too. You might contact them, their address is on the Sniper Country web sight.

Gooch,
When are you "Pulling the pin"?? Will you still be there after the first of the year?? Did you talk Dolan into taking your place yet?? I should have the T-shirts in about 2 weeks the deputy who takes care of that is in New York on a special and wont be back for another week.

Russ,
I would rather take a beating than to tell you this but I owe it to you for all the crap I give you. All of us guys who call coyotes have a shoot every year (At cardboard coyote targets at unknown ranges out to about 400yds)and the guy who won it this year used a SAVa#*... I'am sorry Russ I just cant say it, but you get the idea(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 10:20:39 (EDT) 

HA, how's THAT for being PC :-)

I was scanning through rec.guns tonight, and got the following, no takers there yet:

START QUOTE
"This here is a question I have never had explained satisfactorily.Some one with a physics/military background may know.
If you had an airplane flying at the speed of sound and it fires its machine guns(lets be silly and say they were .22 LR Machine guns because it makes it simpler to visualise,ie the bullet is also 1100fps approx)
Ok, the airplane is flying at 1100fps(lets not get too precise) at sea level and shoots thru a chronometer ( OK its difficult I know). What is the reading?
The part I am really interested in is he also has another .22LR machine gun pointed to the rear and fires thru the chronograph backwards as he passes(yes, I know we are getting difficult now!)
What are the respective approximate velocities as read by the chronometer?
Common sense tells me one thing, logic seems to suggest another."
END QUOTE

Anyone with any clever mathematical equations? I have my ideas, but I'm not too sure, so I'll rather wait before I show my ignorance too openly :-)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@antic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 13:56:27 (EDT) 

It's me again, and this time I've got something that I think will interest you. I've just started reading the book "Ballistics in Perspective" by Mike LaGrange - about bullet/calibre choice for ( big game ) hunting in Africa, mainly Zimbabwe. Originally written in 1983, the current version was brought out in 1990.

In the introduction he talks some about wildcatting, and then he mentions what I want to put here:

"Recently I heard of a 1,000 grain bullet being tested which produces a muzzle energy in the region of 14,000 ft/lbs;"

This boils down to about 2510 fps at the muzzle. From something I read last year I'm sure he's talking about the .700 Nitro Express. Might be a .600, but I doubt it, and definately not a pop-gun smaller than that.

Now how about that for something nice up-close and personal. :-)

Depending on the BC that might do some interesting things a bit downrange...

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 14:23:14 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 20:28:34 (EDT) 

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, Arizona USAU - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 20:29:31 (EDT) 

Marking, sparking bullets:Just thinking out loud here, if you don't need them by the thousand, how about lighter flints stuck into a hollow point that has been carefully and concentrically sized to receive them?

I recently got broken into, guys. Just a quick word to those of you who may have become complacent, as I did: If you live where there isn't somebody around all the time, locks and alarms don't mean much. Keep it stashed deep and locked up. I always knew it could happen, but I also "knew" it could never be tomorrow. They got a few guns, and now I feel like I've let the community down. Looking at the young State Trooper who came to investigate, I couldn't help thinking, "You are in more danger today than yesterday because I didn't have my things properly squared away".

MH, they didn't get your .45 WinMag Redhawk.
NFC <michigun@net-link.net>
3R, MI USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 21:18:37 (EDT) 

yull
USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 00:23:46 (EDT) 

To Will: Thanks for the tip on cleaning bullets prior to coating them. Much obliged.

To "Brother John:" I started as a DAT in 1982 (A3s) then evolved into a CDAT. Proud of it, too! Welcome to our website, John! Thanks for the tip on where to find sulfur powder.

To Jim Craig: I got the information you sent me -- THANK YOU! (Did anyone get any GOOD pictures of the trophies that Tactical Shooter magazine donated? If so, please let me know.)

To Pat: I know how that pained you to tell me about the SAVAGE user WINNING your coyote match... but come on now, don't you feel better for saying it? :-)

To Marius: The Express "line" of offerings has always appealed to me. Not much for long-range engagements, but they do well on elephants, rhinos, and younger, medium-weight Naugas... and also make great "door greeters."

To NFC: Sorry to hear about your break-in. I'm just like you, I don't want to "let the community down" by letting my guns end up on the streets. Seriously, I know how you must have felt. For that reason, I bought a gun safe some years ago, from the Sportsman Steel Safe company in Long Beach, CA. It was as strong and affordable as I could get and has suited me well. Most of us on this page have more wrapped up in our guns than some people do in their cars; it's just an accident waiting to happen if you don't have a "quality" safe. What did it for me, after debating it to myself for a LONG time, was... an NCO friend of mine, in my last unit, had his inventory ripped off. Guys, we're talking "match-grade" stuff -- ALL OF IT. Rifles, pistols, revolvers... ALL match-grade quality. He had more wrapped up in gunsmithing alone than you could ever imagine. One day it was there, the next day... it wasn't.

He did not have a gun safe.

Immediately after learning of what happened to him, I took out a small "signature" loan from my credit union, and bought my safe. Hey, guys, listen. It's NOT just the guns you'd be losing... it's all the quality gunsmithing. Some insurance companies don't "understand" why you are "claiming" XXX dollars, because you paid so-and-so (insert "big" name here) to do the trigger, et cetera. And what if it was one of the older "names" in the gunsmithing business -- and he's been dead for years?

I've been through it all, checking around -- and it's just a LOT cheaper (and feels better, frankly) to have a gun safe, than to try insuring everything with add-on "riders." Once I put everything into my safe, it was AMAZING the GOOD feeling I experienced... but up until then, I'd had guns all over the house... in the closet, under the bed, in the basement, under the couch in the living room... well, you get the idea.

If you don't have a gun safe, buy one. Today. This second.

(And Matt, I'm glad they didn't get your custom .45 Win Mag Redhawk.)

To Yull: You said you want "to buy a good long range rifle for hunting?"

Oh? Well, um... listen, Yull... would you mind making the rest of us feel a lot better about you by telling us that you're NOT talking about taking mule deer at 800 yards? What did you have in mind for this rifle you want?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 01:59:04 (EDT) 

now you're bringing up an interesting point there. I know this is not quite in line with our discussions here ( who's seen a bullet travelling at the speed of light? ). BUT, it would be interesting to see what would happen with that light. It would not simply go at double the speed of light, if faster than speed of light at all. This is at the boundary where the normal laws of physics does not apply any more - I am not sure WHAT applies.

Getting back to the bullets from the plane. In the ideal situation the bullet would travel 2200 fps forward, and drop straight down out the back. Of course this does not take into consideration the effect of the increased resistance of the effective 1100fps wind blowing into the barrel from the front, and the "vacuum" at the back, amongst other things.

Russ,
I just knew you would like it. You must see that double rifle in .700 Nitro Express they reviewed in that article in MAN/Magnum - what a beauty!

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 02:42:12 (EDT) 

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, Arizona USAUõÿÿÿ - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 02:46:24 (EDT) 

I just toured the S&B plant, verrrrry nice! Small, but very well organzed with a exellent customer service and turn around for defective or upgrade scopes in 2 Weeks.

The new variable 3-12x50 PM II has 34mm rings. Beacause!
It has a elevation adjustment of 130 Centimeters (51 Inches)at 100 Meters in 1 cm clicks in one revolution.
The only way to fit this into the scope was to make it a 34 mm tube. All the optical parts belong to their exellent 30 mm series. Eye relief is listed with min. 85 mm (3.4 ") and should be enough for most tactical uses.
The turrets are about 1 1/4" diamteter and knurled for good friction. The clicks are audible but muffled like a BMW door. The reticle in this one is a Bryant version, but Premiers Mil Dots are also available as they make them for S&B. The reticle is in the first optical focal plane and does change with magnification, but it will never change zero when changing the power. Also you can range at all settings.
Overall this make a good impression, I cant wait to get my special EAW canted mount with 34 mm Rings to fit this to the .300 Win Mag. 2185 Voere Semi Auto.
I´ll have this until after the shot show and will try to get one to Russ for T&E.

I´ll be at the SOF show next weekand and look forward to having a beer with any of you that can make it there.

Puuh, that was a long one

Ende
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 11:51:32 (EDT) 

Confederate
Confederate <confederate123>
possum town, Mississippi USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 13:08:54 (EDT) 

As to your short range hunting rifle I would recomend something quick on target and light weight. I am currently building a "Cooper Scout" for situations like what you mentioned.
5-cent <nickel@lewiston.com>
Lewiston, ID USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 14:46:51 (EDT) 

From nearly flooded Holland, I wish you a good day!
Stefan <sniper@tref.nl>
Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 16:57:45 (EDT) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 20:02:05 (EDT) 

Sarge: Wow! I've never seen you out in the open. No stealthy sneak out of or into your hide. That new stock must have you really excited.
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 21:42:55 (EDT) 

My ridge hunting load is a 180 grain spitzer boattail ball, as I cannot locate a 190 grain HUNTING ball. (Maybe Hornady?) DO NOT hunt with match balls!!
Hodgdon lists 76 grains of H4831SC as their maximum loading in the 180, and it shoots well in my rifle at approximately 3030 fps. Neither load shows any signs of high pressures, even when shooting in 85 to 90 degree weather. These loads apply only to my rifle!! Work your loads up carefully, as every rifle is different, and chamber pressures do ugly and violent things to rifles, hands, eyes, etc. when they become too intense!! Hodgdon has a basic reloading chart on the net. Seek and ye shall find. Again, if you use Sierra's 50th anniversary manual as your source for load data, be VERY, VERY careful! Sorry for the long post.
Scott
USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 22:51:17 (EDT) 

Along these lines, I'm going to buy some of the Winchester/Nosler Combined Technology 168-grain hunting ballistic tips and give them a try.

To anyone tempted to use a Match King on game, listen -- the Game King bullet, while not "as" accurate as the Match King, is still VERY accurate. The load I have for my hunting .308s, while not sub-MOA out of my Savage like my target load, is MOA nevertheless. For the bullet performance I get, "MOA" is good enough for me.

To Torsten: Good news on the Schmidt & Bender scope. If you can get me one to look at, thanks. So, now that you've been to the factory, WHY do their scopes cost so damn much? Where's all the money going? "Inquiring poor folks want to know."
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 01:52:51 (EDT) 

Sarge >>> no more sneaking ?!!!! I´m disapointed.
Torsten
Germany - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 02:21:55 (EDT) 

Paul,
the plane flying in a vacuum? Huh?

Stefan,
hope your sniper's gun-boat has been kept in shape. Are you swimming too?

Sarge,

your cover been blown? Must have been that EVIL MAN GOOCH :-)

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 03:02:48 (EDT) 

I can't recall seeing any of my distributors carrying Schmidt & Bender scopes. Has anyone seen any dealer costs on their items and, if so, where?

Potpourri: I confirmed that Powell River Laboratories IS the owner of Rock 5R barrels (well, the production process, that is). I knew Rock sold out to someone in Tennessee, I knew that PRL is in Tennessee -- and, adding two and two, I had a strong hunch that it was probably PRL that bought Rock out. (It's interesting to note that PRL's website has been dead for months. I called them about it, a few months or so ago, and they didn't seem to care if they EVER got another site up and running. Hmmmm.) I also found out that someone I know has some .30-caliber PRL tungsten-core bullets; this individual has no need for them and is giving them to me. Nice things happen to nice guys -- but occasionally even to me, too.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 04:02:13 (EDT) 

"Blount, Inc., which recently purchased Redfield, will not be marketing scopes under the Redfield name. They will be making Redfield mounts, and these should be available in October. -- Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer"

Maybe "5-cent," who works for Blount, could enlighten us with the "inside scoop."
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 04:45:41 (EDT) 

In Norway the prices are app. the same. S&B sniperscopes are cheaper than Leupolds.

I've used a S&B 6X42 sniperscope for many years. I'm very pleased with it.

Both factories has the same exellent customerservice. Until my discharge I used the same rig for military service and hunting. I still use it for hunting. My rig is a 7.62NATO Tikka M55 with two scopes in QD-mounts, the S&B 6X42 and a Zeiss C10X36. In military service I used standard 147gr Raufoss NATO ammo. I duplicated the ballistics in my huntinground and use 150gr Sierra SBT. Both rounds have the same POI at all practical ranges. It's not the best ballistic combination but I have thousands of practiceshots.

The coming weekend I'm going for a 3 day hunt on raindeer at 400m above the treeline in a national park. Weatherforcast is arctic winds from north, sunshine, rain, snow and freezing temperatures at night. Optics take a lot of abuse in these conditions. Relieable QD-mounts and zeroed backupscope are essential for a successful hunt/mission. S&B claims that 30-40% of their customerservice comes from Norway...
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 05:02:54 (EDT) 

Dietrich Apel runs the operation, and is the Importer and Distributor for S&B in the US. Talked to him last night, they will send info and leaflets to me in Las Vegas.

If any of our regulars here at the Roster need one then contact me and I´ll see what I can get out of the factory.

Tor F: have a great hunt, I wish I could come along some day.(Hint,hint). Have you receved the H&K barrel and stock info by snailmail ?

Time to feed my Bernese Mountain Nauga pup!

I´ll hook up with Stefan in flooded Holland on Saturday to shoot at 500M on a Military range. I´ll probably be wearing neoprene and look like an attack Sub or Elephant seal.

Airplane project !
so if the bullet out the back leaves at the same speed the plane travels foreward it should have 0 speed above ground. But what about when it (bullet) looses velocity ? would that give it a positive speed above ground again ????
And what about the Thin Wind ?? He ??

Ende
Torsten
Germany - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 06:09:57 (EDT) 

Bruce,
I guess I should have asked you too!! I got your up date on the Mil-dot Master, thank you so much! I'am sending shawn you address so he can order one from you, he's going to convert over to the mils also. You have a great product and you certainly take care of your customers and thats the best advertisment in the world for you.

Steve,
I agree with you on the 155s I've had good luck with them also. I was really surprised when they out shot my Berger 175 VLDs!! The Begers shot around 2.25 at 400yds and I was quite pleased until I shot the 155s into around 1.75!! I haven't had a chance to duplicate this so I cant say its the way to go. Its hard to find a day around here when the wind doesn't blow and I can shoot groups at long range. I hate to claim they will do that all the time with out backing it up with a couple more groups because we all get those "LUCKY" groups once in a while(HA) I'll keep you posted if I get back out again.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 12:43:00 (EDT) 

Aesthetically, there are few rifles that are in the same league, especially if custom wood is involved.

I do not believe there is ANY non-custom rifle action that is more capable of handling virtually any sporting cartridge.

All of this at a price that is affordable to most shooters.

A few questions though (since you are such an advocate of the Savage rifle). If that is such a good basis for the long range requirement, why is it that NONE are used by the Palma shooters, or NRA high power champions, or the bench rest fraternity? Why is it that the Army and Marine Corp have not seen the light? Why is it that Savage hasn't won any sniper weapon procurements? Must be that butt ugly barrel nut.

To quote our friend Torsten, "Ende".
 

Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 13:23:19 (EDT) 

Nope guys I was just in a bit of a hurry and had to get out QUICK! Sometimes you have to deedee even when you don't want to! As for the TechniCarbon stock, I tried to call Walt the other evening to check out the progress on the evaluation stock and he wasn't in. Once I catch him I'll up-date everyone.

His mission accomplished Sarge disappears into the mist. (or did my glasses just fog up???)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 17:46:16 (EDT) 

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or. USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 18:35:54 (EDT) 

And lets not forget who showed us what a good barrel is to a modern rifle and that was a Pope barrel and they were put on the early Savages.

So, don't be too influenced by what others may tell you and recommend. Remember, opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one.

Later!
 

al
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Livin"and Lovin', by the Grace of God in the Stately state of , Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 21:43:13 (EDT) 

On the 155 Palmas, one of our instructors is a Palma Canidate and he now loves the 155s. He has been shooting long range and cross course for a while and is a High Master.

Al - Thank you man. This rifle bashing was getting rather thick. As was previously stated, most shooters can't outshoot an out of the box gun anyway. Guys if you are just starting out, buy what you can afford and forget the wazoo crap. Shoot what you can afford and add as you can afford. I wish I had every expensive gun guys have bought only to find out they couldn't shoot to its ability. They then get frustrated, quite, and there sets a great rifle, forever to gather dust.

Have fun guys and hold hard.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 22:50:06 (EDT) 

I have been intrigued at the various comments re hunting etc. Down here our main hunting is at various species of Deer in country from deep thick WET bush to Alpine rock faces so the debate as to the ultimate all around hunting rifle rages on far and wide.

I'm currently shooting a 308(Palma) and a 22/250 Ackley Imp (1in9 with 80gn Molyd Bergers) in Open Class and have recently scored some VVN140 which is very rare down here as is the reloading info. Has anyone had experience with this powder in the Ackley or 308 with the 155 Sierra. Many thanks.
Dave JONES <splat@ihug.co.nz>
Wellington, New Zealand - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 03:07:39 (EDT) 

On the "Why doesn't so-and-so use Savage rifles?" question... well, see, you're using the "logic" that someone else on the Council uses, which is to presume that if so-and-so (fill in "big name" or "cool" branch of government) doesn't use it, then it's a POS. This same "logic" also presumes that if it doesn't cost "X" dollars, and isn't built by Mr. Big Name Gunsmith, then it's a POS. This same "logic" does not allow for the fact that there are more "no name" gunsmiths making PRECISION rifles and who do so for a third or a half of what Mr. Big Name Gunsmith charges. I've already argued this "logic" discussion with a certain person offline, I won't make it public. It does keep things lively in our E-mail to each other, though, but we usually end up buying each other a cyber-beer. :-)

On testimonials, Fred, my degree is in psychology. As such, you learn early on in your coursework that you do NOT count "testimonials" as "fact." They are, however, effective -- about 90% or more of television commercials are based on someone telling you how WONDERFUL something is because of their own experience. Such people are usually "cool" (highly placed, physically attractive, or appealing in some other manner), but their comments are all based on subjectivity, not on empirical evidence and "fact." To sum it up, I like how Nick Nolte's boss in 48 Hours summed up Nick's vocal expression of what a great "partner" Eddie Murphy was. Yelling at Nick, he said:

"Just 'cause YOU say it with conviction, it don't mean S**T to ME!!!"

And a word on contracting: I've been involved in government contract work and I've seen some of the good, and some of the asinine, ways that contract awards are determined. I'll let that stand by itself, except to say that I have many good reasons why I don't always put a lot of faith in something that earned a government contract.

As for Ruger No. 1s, I said they're a fine hunting rifle. I stand by my original comments, and won't rehash them here. Apparently, I'm not the only one who feels they SUCK as long-range precision rifles -- "the gunwriter whores" feel the same way (nice term, Paul), so I suppose I'm in good company.

To Grenadier: I've got the same bipod, two of them in fact, for a couple of my Savages. There's nothing wrong with your scope, either, and I think you've got a pretty sound rig. If you're dead set on an aftermarket stock, McMillan can outfit you with their A-2 Tactical -- but you may want to wait until Sarge finishes his review of the stock he's getting from the company in Florida. It sounds like it might be a very worthwhile product.

On stocks: I'm a third of my way into my much-awaited stock review. I'm finishing up the Choate/Plaster stock, then I'll look at a few others. I hope to have it finished by the end of this week. Photos will be included.

To Pat: If you can replicate your performance with the 155 Palmas, let me know. And what twist do you have in your bore? I've heard that the 155s occasionally shoot very well in 1:10" twists, though they're not supposed to.

To Al: I agree with you, and I've said the same thing. Almost any gun (even a Ruger, except for "most" of those damn No. 1s) can be made to shoot. And I have NOTHING against Remington, except their price, and the same goes for Winchester. Buy what you can afford. If it isn't quite right, get a gunsmith to tune it. No big deal. I'm a poor guy, so I shoot Savages, but from what I've seen, I don't have much reason to spend the extra money. Maybe if I just HAD "extra money" I'd think differently about the matter... but probably not. I did like Rick said, I bought what I could afford, when I could afford it, and I added to it when I could. If I had the choice between a "great" rifle and a "good" rifle with access to a GOOD gunsmith, I'd take the latter. And I also agree, most rifles can outshoot most shooters, which is certainly true in my case.

To Will: I'm just as sick of the "what rifle is better" discussion too. A good 'smith and a good shooter can make almost any rifle do wonders. I've just always had to make do with what I could get my hands on. I was going to buy a Winchester or a Remington until my gunsmith, knowing how strapped I was, suggested a Savage. He said they were very affordable and could shoot. He's kind of an E. F. Hutton type of guy, so I usually listen to him when he says something, especially about guns. I bought my 110FP Tactical, ran some Federal match ammo through it, and I was convinced. I've never regretted buying that rifle. It's all a matter of what you like and what you can afford.

To Torsten, Stefan, and my other European friends: My January trip to Germany has been moved to August. Adjust fire accordingly.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 04:09:19 (EDT) 

You said it all. Most rifles, out of the box, can hold better than the man behind the trigger. It may be that because of the level of experience and expertise on this site that this has become such a controversy. We will usually swear by what we do well with. Truth is, if we HAD to do well with something else, we probably could.

Mike:

Your comments about shooting long range as a PD sniper are well taken as are the comments of a respondent from down South. If you can shoot far, you can sure as hell shoot close. Most PD snipers (in my view) are not confidence inspiring in their performance. I'll take my military spec ops sniper buddies any day. PD shooters do not do well, including the Federal Bureau of Incompetence, because they do not practice under the same degree of stress or distance. You're doing the right thing. I left the LEO world because of the idiots that make it through the ranks to positions of policy decision making. Good luck, you need it!
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Todoland, Kansas USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 09:47:52 (EDT) 

Russ,
My 308 has the 1-12 twist. I dont know now if I will be able to duplicate the test it seems the rifle found a new home in Iowa!! Shawn thought he could probably bring out the rifles "Full potential" better than his blind, shakey old man(HA)

To ALL,
Thanks for the info on the mil-dots!!! Rick I dont have that new of a system but will try to get it down loaded to one. Thanks again!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 10:16:19 (EDT) 

Doc Holloway
Retired airplane driver and shade tree gunsmith.
R. L. "Doc" Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
Bland, MO USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 10:39:34 (EDT) 

Sarge: Just tried to call Walt at Technicarbon, but got an answer machine. I am curious about these stocks..

Bain: Got the brochure from Storm Mtn. a couple of days ago. Mr. Ryan emailed he would sent '99 schedule when it was complete. A well done brochure. Makes me want to go that much more. Am thinking about the 2 day basic longrange marksmanship course first. Also, I'm trying to convince my friend, Frank, to go. The brochure mentioned 2 man teams.

Well, alright: Rifle match no. 2 rapidly approches. This Sun. at Ft. Benning. Excitement is mounting.. Have done the appropriate things as best as I know: Ammo ready...check; Rifle ready...check; Ancillary equipment ready...check; Appropriate number of chickens and cats sacrificed to the sun god...check; One hour per night hanging in gravity boots hyperventilating cordite and laboratory grade moly... you betcha, Bob..

Shooting is magnificent. The imagery that so easily, almost automatically manifests itself when contemplating shooting is so clean, so primal, so spiritual, so... hey, wait a damn second there, Leroy. Don't you know you're just preachin' to the choir?
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Toying with the idea of a 3rd cup of coffee in Smyrna, Ga. USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 10:50:15 (EDT) 

My opinions of firearms are based on experience with them. Testimonials are usually nothing more than another opinion, and I treat them as such unless it comes from a source I respect and consider knowledgeable.

I will admit to possessing "more than one" No.1, and one of those shot 1/2 MOA @ 200 yds after being removed from the box, cleaned, having a 1.5 X 5 Leupold installed and zeroed, and then fired for record. A .416 Rigby Tropical Rifle model. One does not normally expect this type of accuracy from an African cartridge. A friends .223 Remington chambered Varmint model, with exactly the same level of tinkering, shot 1/2 MOA with loads developed by Depity Dave and I for an AR-15. Accuracy that hardly merits the term SUCKS. With NO trips to the gunsmith.

I wish you and your Savages well; I bear no ill will toward them. I prefer to invest my time and money on projects that I feel merit the investment and offer some hope of a return should I need to release it at a later date.

The title of this site suggests the job should be done with one shot, and I maintain that a properly prepared No.1 is thoroughly capable of that type of accuracy. As capable as another of my personal favorites, the 1874 Sharps.

We will have to agree to disagree on this subject as I am not likely to change my mind until I'm proven wrong, and neither are you.

Once again, with a nod to Torsten, "Ende"
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 13:11:06 (EDT) 

To Fred: The problems I have knowledge of, personal and otherwise, have to do with how the rifle is designed, with the damn hangar. Everyone has a good day even with a bad gun, but I'm sure the ones of which you speak are perhaps better than those in the mass population. I'm not the only one who's run across problems with the No. 1 rifle, and if you have as many as you said, then you must know about the problems as well. Truly, I am surprised at the performance of your .416 Rigby at 200 yards -- out of curiosity, was that a three-shot or a five-shot group... and how many ½ MOA groups did you fire to label it "1/2 MOA?" Regardless, between my personal experience with them and those of the various "gun whores," there must be a problem somewhere. I mentioned "testimonials" in response to your question about why certain folks don't use Savages. Really, though, and I'm only saying this because it's the way I am, but... I don't CARE what "star" or agency or gunsmith is using a Savage. "I'M" using one -- well, FIVE, actually. I can afford them, they shoot as well as anything else, if not better, and that's all I care about. And I wasn't trouncing your No. 1s, Fred... just everyone else's. :-)

To "Doc" Holloway: Like I said, about the only thing Remingtons have going for them is you can spin them on a lathe and true them up. That said, they're just an action, just like all the other actions are just actions. I have no problem with Winchesters, and obviously Carlos Hathcock didn't either (yes, I know, it was his issue weapon). My gunsmith could have built his sniper rifle on anything he wanted (he's better funded than I am), but he chose a Winchester action. Some of the guys over on the rec.guns newsgroup like them for competing in highpower matches (do a search on "bartbob" and "winchester" in rec.guns, and you'll see what I mean -- check the archives when you do your search). Some people like the positive feed system and others hate it, but the actions are strong and well built.

To all: Stock review update. I finished the Choate and have four more stocks to go. I'm tired, I'm going to bed. I hate third shift.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 14:37:51 (EDT) 

Don’t hold back, tell us what you really think about LE executive types! By the way, sounds like you must have met my sheriff.

Russ,

I have known Fred for a number of years now and we share a simple philosophy “If it won’t shoot, get rid of it!” Both of us have single shot rifles, mine are Browning 1885’s, one of the reasons we enjoy them is because hunting with one makes a statement about confidence and selectivity. We would never own one let alone several if they were inaccurate. Bolt guns have there place, but when we are talking about “One Shot, One Kill” I don’t see how single shot rifles can be summarily dismissed.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Forced to reply from normally quiet, West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 14:54:16 (EDT) 

Russ,
This is a no win argument on which is best, if we all liked the same thing we would all be married to the same woman!! There are great #1s and great SAVAGES, and there are bad Remingtons and bad Winchesters, so to hell with it and to each his own!!! Now lets argue about something else for a while, God you have to love this bunch!! You said we should have a Sniper Country get togeather sometime, couldn't you just imagine it!!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 15:44:18 (EDT) 

I then re-loaded with 300 gr Barnes X bullets in two groups of five and four, differentiated by seating depth, but equal powder charges. After 5 rounds were fired with about 1.5" @ 200 yds, I was quite surprised and pleased. Sore shoulder and all, I fired the remaining four into 1.1"; needless to say I felt no further need to hunt for a better load. Now could I do this again on a regular basis? Not sure, because the thought of attempting to repeat an equal number of one session firings is distinctly unappealing. Depity Dave is no help, he mumbled something about merely looking at the cartridges is painfull enough. Seriously, I believe it is possible to repeat it, just need to sit down and try. If this number is felt to be insufficent then so be it.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 16:10:56 (EDT) 

Great to hear/see you guys are up and taking nourishment. The problems identified about selection process' for duty slotted snipers are well advised. A good number of the special enforcement duty slots (i.e. swat, sniper, selected enforcement, etc.) too often are determined on a "good ol' boy basis. Unless you personally have the "privilege" of actually knowing these guys so assigned, they treat you like scum and have attitudes that, for me, are problematic. Phoenix PD is a classic example as are some of the federal agencies I worked for. I want competence, courage, and comraderie in the guys I work with along with a very liberal dose of a sense of humor and a lack of self-importance. Just my opinion guys, but I'm old school when the "oath of office" still meant something.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Oz, USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 16:36:32 (EDT) 

Lacking an external adjustment for it, is there any way to "dope" parallax?
Greg <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 19:58:10 (EDT) 

I'm with Russell, Ruger sucks rancid goat urine. If you want something big and odd, how about a Hyem express bolt action in .600 nitro? or a Browning high wall, or a Sharps...you get the idea, anything but a Ruger.

Pat, how dare you? there are no bad Winchesters...the push feed models were just a "savington" conspiracy illegally marketed under the Winchester name.
 

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 20:17:49 (EDT) 

I have had and used the Leupold QR rings on two rifles. The reeturn to zero was excilent. I no longeer have them because: At the Storm Mountain, Hathcock shoot I had a radical shift in point of impact and missed the head shot. After checking everything to see if I could find the problem I decided to go with a one piece mount and rings from Chandler at Iron Brigade Armory. No problrms sence.

James,

Good to see you up and about also!

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Watching the Clinton Follies on the telly from the democratic onclave of, West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 21:18:20 (EDT) 

OK, OK I have to admit it, I'm also one of those - SAVAGE owners, and like my exalted Editor-in-Chief, have 5 of them. Well,OK only 4 one of them is my son's Lefty .243. Anyway I have to go along with some of the final statements and we are ALL going to have to just agree to disagree. Like Russ, I've gotten what I could afford at the time and built it up as I could. My Savages shoot better than I can and as long as that occurs I have no desire what so ever to change!
Now on to other OLD business - and HOPEFULLY a SERIOUS change of subject. Russ and I both asked late last week or earlier this week; if you where going to "build" your own log/data/record book what would you want (PLEASE see my post further up this page for specifics) it to have/be/do? I've seen NO responses?? Why?? Isn't keeping track of the performance of our weapon (REGARDLESS of who makes it), rounds fired, distances to target, weather, etc.,etc.,etc. important to what we do?? I think it is! So lets have some discussion on this - What DO we need to keep track of and HOW would you do it!

Expecting incoming Sarge diasappears and waits!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 22:53:58 (EDT) 

The only way the parallax can be different for the vertical and horizontal wire is if they aren't in the same plane which says the reticle is damaged. It's almost impossible that it could be a problem with the lenses or an alignment problem and it can't be a problem in the optics after the reticle. You could still use it by carefully centering your eye on the scope, but if it's damaged it probably won't hold zero under recoil and you won't have confidence in it.

Unfortuantely it appears that the scope division of Redfield has gone bankrupt, so I don't know how you can get it fixed. The Leupold 3-9x40 tactical is a nice replacement for $300. They'll fix it for free if it breaks, which it probably won't.

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, Arizona USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:18:22 (EDT) 

Harry - You need two Chronos. Set one at your standard muzzel distance and the other at 100 yards. Input the different muzzel velocities into your ballistic program. Your program should give you the BC for that 100 yards. You can repeat at 200 and 300. This will show the error factor due to lose of velocity. Use the average of the BC your program spits out. You'll get a better picture. You may be surprised with the results though.

Depity Dave - Sorry man, One shot one Kill denotes accuracy, not mission! I'll be damned if I would be caught on a mission with a single shot. Custer done proved that doesn't work! Follow on shots must always be considered!

Have fun guys. And for heavens sake, can't we just get along?

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:30:31 (EDT) 

Any date on the posting of the rangefinder review info? I have a hunting webpage with rangefinder reviews and was wondering if I can quote your review? With all due credits of course.

Regarding Matchkings and hunting. Don't. Had the displeasure of bloodtracking a 500 lb. bear after some oxygenwaster doublelunged him with a .308. Needless to say, the pucker factor was peaking when we found him 2 hours later watching his backtrail for some payback. You don't have to run fast from a bear, just faster than your partner. A .300 winmag finished the mess.

Appreciate all the hard work you guys do and the info. Thanks

For a little humor, click here
 

Jesse <spectr17@earthlink.net>
Land of fruits and nuts, Ca. USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:32:41 (EDT) 

Almost forgot, NECG said that I could use an .020" thicker "block" under the rear ring, but it wouldn't be tapered. This struck me as a particularly bad idea. Any input guys?
Thanks,
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, TX USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:59:56 (EDT) 

The 2nd Annual Candadian Forces International Sniper Concentration was a big success. It was a battle focused, infantry sniper evaluation from hell. 2 days of shooting and 3 days of field problems. Guess who won?

"From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli, baby!" Two teams from USMC STA platoons got 1st and 2nd. 2nd Recon got 7th. Made an old jarhead proud!

I went up and helped my old Canadian bud Warrant Officer Treger man the OP on the stalk. Looked like a couple of old men sitting on a park bench watching the birds. Poured rain on us all day. Don't know who was more misserable, us or the snipers.

Ran into another former Quantico instructor, SSgt "Fast Eddy" Dristoll now of 2nd Recon Bn. and met the NCOIC of the 2nd MarDiv School, GySgt Miller and the rest of the 2nd MarDiv contingent. Great bunch of Marines. The Corps is still the Corps.

More knowledge and wisdom from Mount Gooch later when I get my clock back off of New Brunswick time.

Good day!
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 00:05:23 (EDT) 

To James in TODO land: keep the faith, we're all thinking about you here.
Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
AZ USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 00:06:57 (EDT) 

Even measuring the point of impact change and the velocity change going from coated to uncoated bullets doesn't do the job because there are several things besides BC which can change. I just use the same BC, correct for any velocity difference, and rezero with the moly bullets. If you know your muzzle velocity and the weather conditions and if you know the drop as measured by your scope at several ranges, you can "trim" the BC value in your computer to get the calculations to fit your results. It may not give the "true" BC, but for the purpose of calculating drops it will probably give better results. You can also trim the muzzle velocity number if it gives a better fit. You may also find that using a different function table, such as G7 instead of G1 will give better fits. With that many variables, getting a "best" a fit will be a fair amount of work.

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, Arizona - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 00:24:53 (EDT) 

I keep wanting to try some of the Barnes offerings in my .416 Remington Magnum -- until I look at the price. At that point I always look into my wallet, shake my head, mutter something not very nice, and grab my usual 400-grain Hornady RNs. (sigh)

To Grenadier: You're not a pest. If you have the same PH-type bipods I own, they're heavy enough. I bought the M-85 model from Model 1 (they are listed in Shotgun News). Actually, I bought two, and I'm in the market for a third. The Chinese have better metallurgical processes than what they're given credit for. Their PolyTech (rifle) receivers got a bad reputation for softness, but to my knowledge their Norinco .45s do pretty well. For a bipod, though, I don't think you'll have any problems, if you've got the same model I have. As for the installation you mentioned, Scott Powers can probably address that issue. You might want to look at his Versa-Pod review.

To Dennis: You can't snipe if you can't navigate, and discussion of GPS devices is certainly well within the topic of sniper warfare. I'd love to get one but don't know enough about them and, as always with me, price is a consideration.

To Jesse: Mr. Bain and Jim Craig were doing the rangefinder review. I suspect it will be submitted to a print publication as well, but if Mr. Bain submits it to this website for posting you can, with credit, link to the material from your site. Thank you for asking first, and not just doing it (like some others have).

To Gooch: Thanks for the report, and... welcome back!

To Bob Hodge: Got yourself a Black Diamond, eh? Did you find one at a good price? Definitely, let us know how yours performs.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 01:32:25 (EDT) 

Ähhh, sorry, got carried away!

Andrew: eaw-montagen@t-online.de

If they can not help you, then you just have to get a smith that will mill you a slanted Picatinney rail to fit the SSG receiver. I would never ever raise only one ring.
If you need more detail, or eaw cant comunicate with you E me and I´ll help.

....... one hears the sound of 88 mm brass being ejected."
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 02:46:52 (EDT) 

Not only is our own Scott Powers a legend in his own mind... eh, that is, "time"... he's also "da man."  If you missed his latest piece in Tactical Shooter because you haven't yet subscribed, you can still read his article at the TS website.

Congratulations again, Scott.  As Editor-in-Chief, I'm going to let you just KEEP the Sniper Country company car.  Enjoy!

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 03:55:41 (EDT) 

Fred,

what's wrong with our Dark Continent cartridges? Or more correctly, cartridges developed for shooting our little animals here? You think the .416 Rigby is tough to shoot? Have you tried a .600 or .700 Nitro Express yet?  Neither have I :-)
I must admit, that is exceptional accuracy for that big a calibre, as Russ will have to admit as well. Russ, what's Bwana do again?

James,
so have you figured yet what to do with all your spare time in that land of nothingness?

Harry,
on your BC. Off the Compendium of Terminology here on Sniper Country:
"A mathematical factor representing the ratio of the sectional density of a bullet to its coefficient of form. Simply put, BC expresses a bullet’s length ( relative to diameter ) and aerodynamic shape, thus indicating its ability to overcome air resistance in flight."
Looking at this, simply put, your moly will NOT change your BC, since you are not changing the physical dimensions of your bullet. However, the whole idea of the moly is to make your bullet "smoother", for lack of a better word in my vocabulary now. So it will reduce your wind resistance slightly, but it will affect it in such a way that your BC will change dramatically, say from .45 to .55. Rather you might have a change from .45 to .46 - or am I now totally off the mark? Russ?

Enough now, time to get back to work.

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 04:45:54 (EDT) 

Deputy Dave,
What kind of a price does Chandler get for his one piece rings and bases?? and does he have them in 30mm also??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 09:37:09 (EDT) 

As to the "Chandler rings", I can post the price (and some other missing details) later today if no one else has gotten to it yet. They don't make their own rings, they use someone else's, I forget whose but I'll look that up too. There was a side by side comparison in one of the later DFA books of these rings and the Leupold Mk4 rings, and while they were a similar design you could see machining marks all over the Leupold rings the Chandler-favored ones looked perfect. Yes they have them in 30mm and of course they ain't cheap. DepDave, did you have IBA mount the scope/base/etc. for you?

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 13:26:47 (EDT) 

Russ, Marius: I was VERY surprised at this level of accuracy, but have seen a couple of .458 Win Mags that also shot 1 MOA or so. Unfortunately, testing for any length of time is, as Russ stated "fatiguing", and can be worse. After fiddling with my rifle, and two others belonging to Depity Dave's brother Harold, I managed to sufficiently re-aggravate an old separated shoulder injury that the thought of firing anything other than a .22 long rifle was out of the question. It took approx. six months to heal to where it was comfortable again. These rifles can indeed hurt you, and need to be respected. After much experience with them (zeroing rifles for customers), Dakota Arms bought a machine rest. It was simply too punishing for the fellow that did the shooting.

Depity Dave probably is the only one of us with sense, he declined to participate other than as a spotter. Not that he doesn't appreciate them, he maintains that he does. Jest don't need to fire em to appreciate em. He usually fires a round from each just so he can't be accused of being totally non-participative.

All of this serves to satisfy the "gee, I wish I could hunt Africa" in us. As to the practicality of these for any North American game; yes, far into "the more than enough" area. However, I doubt that the whitetail or mulie or bear probably cares, they are just as dead. The only major consideration in actually using one of these rifles is the complete penetration of the game animal (a safety concern) and possible lack of bullet expansion. Bullet selection is of the utmost importance, for in most states, a non-expanding bullet is illegal for hunting.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 13:33:01 (EDT) 

Depity Dave: I'm sorry to hear that you missed the head shot because your scope was off.It looked ok to me and Harold after Fred droped it in the basement but I guess we could have missed some thing.

Fred :You did tell Dave about droping his rifle in the basement diden't you...?

Enfield #4 Lovers : I have a new in the wraper .308 win heavy barrel made in Canada for the Palma matches.If any body is intrested send me an E-mail.
Si vis pacem para bellum... Sgt.Cox
Sgt. Cox
FT,HOME, GA. USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 16:58:47 (EDT) 

Sgt.Cox <ccox@bae.uga.edu>
Athens, Ga. USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 17:14:15 (EDT) 

I had Chandler do an inspection and correction (as necessary) on my PSS 223 plus install and sight-in my Leupold 6.5 X 20 30mm Tactical. The cost was around $278.00 (as I recall, can’t find my receipt just now, but keep in mind that as a law enforcement type I took advantage of any discount available). The enclosed target upon return measured .28 in. for three shots with my ammo. Work was performed in an expeditious fashion.

Sgt. Cox:

Fred told me he wouldn’t have dropped it if he had known that you were throwing it at him while his back was turned. Harold is still not admitting to anything.

Always good to know what is going on when I'm not looking.

I do not know if it was the rings and bases that failed but after examination of everything I could think of and re-shooting that stage of the event I found a shift of about 3.5 in. to the right in the point of impact. There was no shift in elevation.

Rick:

I don't disagree with you, BUT, you might be supprised just how fast a follow up shot can be had with practice and just because it holds only one dosn't mean I have only one with me. Also with a single shot I'm not limited to cartrages that fit in a magazine.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Off for the weekend in magnificent, West Virginia USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 17:59:41 (EDT) 

D. West <westforce@juno.com >
I hate , Chicago!!! USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 21:28:05 (EDT) 

Russell,

Thanks for the info on Jim's and Mr. Bain's review. I am anxious as a nun in a cucumber patch to see it.

I've got a webpage with reviews, links and info on GPS if you need some more reading. Too bad we can't take these computers into the crapper to read. My GPS page is here.

Out here where I work the L.A. Co. Sheriff was testing a robot sniper weapon system last week. Anyone know anything about it? Caliber?

Back to my basement hydrogen fusion experiment.
Jesse <spectr@earthlink.net>
On top the babysitter in beautiful Socal, Ca. USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 22:55:07 (EDT) 

Russ: Glad to see you're still stirring the pot......

Torsten: Check e-mail and six......(and I thought I was ugly, sheeeeesssshhhh)....

Bain: Howdy

Going to bed,

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Vacation's over, USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 00:02:10 (EDT) 

Thanks, Todd
endwrench <endwrench@yahoo.com>
Victor , MT USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 00:09:25 (EDT) 

For any Savage user,
Are there any tips/wisdom/advice on the factory 110FP stock. I need to scrape the barrel channel, as the bbl does not free float its entire length (bad?) What should I use, how should I NOT do it, etc. What works best for painting, ie: prep of the stock, type of paints, yadda yadda. Big flakes of paint leave a trail Hansel & Gretel could follow.( I want to do some mods to the factory stock, as it will be a while until I can replace it with a "better" one.)
Grenadier <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 01:33:06 (EDT) 

On reducing felt recoil: I use the P.A.S.T. Magnum Plus Recoil Shield. It lets me shoot the heavy stuff in summer months while only wearing a light shirt. You can wear it over or under your clothing as you desire. Fred, if you're dislocating your shoulder when you shoot the big stuff, I'd sure recommend getting one.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 04:05:39 (EDT) 

Autauga Arms Inc.
740 E. Main
Pratt Plaza Mall
Suite 13
Prattville, AL. 36067

Phone# 800-262-9563
Fax# 334-361-2961

D. West
USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 05:08:33 (EDT) 

Thanks alot for the quick and concise info ... Exactly what I was looking for ... Thanks again ...
Sam Cushway III <hoyo50@hotmail.com>
Michigan City, IN USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 05:29:34 (EDT) 

The recoil system I prefer to use on heavily charged big bore rifles is the one Fred discussed, Let Someone Else Sight It In!!!

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
somewhere in Beautiful, West Virginia USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 12:07:31 (EDT) 

To Lance:
I noticed too that those ultra expensive sniper rifles don't seem to give the accuracy that you would expect, considering their price. I also noticed something strange in my shooting. When I had a Steyr SSG the accuracy was good. Later I bought a Rem PSS which cost about 1/3 the price of the SSG, the accuracy was quite a bit better than the SSG. Recently I bought a Savage 110FP which was a lot cheaper but more accurate than the Rem PSS.
It sounds strange but with these three rifles, accuracy seems to be inversely proportional to the price.
Kodiak
USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 13:17:33 (EDT) 

Which rifle is best: The question is overly broad and incapable of answering here. I would not, and will never, own a Savage. I say this based upon my research on the matter and talks with current and former duty-slotted snipers. Notwithstanding, the Savage may be right for you, depending upon a number of factors. Bottom line is that once you start making modifications to a Savage (stock, cryo, barrel, etc.) you lose most of the advantages to buying the gun in the first place.

Grouping sizes: Lance, you've posted an interesting question, one I've thought about alot. The short answer is that not all measurements are the same and all groupings are not the same. Many have posted to this site bragging of their ".15" to ".25" MOA groupings, usually from out-of-the-box Savages, no less. We have no idea how these phenoms of the shooting world have measured their groups, nor do we know how many rounds they fired. Three is the minimum. Five is the preferred number. The Remington action-based AT1 M24s that Rod Ryan of SMTC and I have -- built by Andy Webber -- will shoot sub-.35 MOA five-shot groups day in and day out, rain or shine, hot or cold, first shot or 250th shot, in a word "consistently." I can't say that about any of the other rifles whose amazing performances are touted here.

Gooch and Torsten: SOF or SOL? If SOF, what's our TRP going to be?

Bain out

Oh, one more thing: A "special" hello to Uncle Nunzio's favorite nephew, the D-Man, Teams Dallas and LeMay, Dave Lick, Irv, Cory, "Basso Profundo", Fly-Boy and the Mad Scientist, Steve the pharmacist (bring more Tylenol next time) and the other shooters at SMTC these last two weeks. I'd shoot, drink, try and talk the local girls out of their undergarments, etc., anytime, anywhere with you guys. See you at the Sniper Sustainment courses next year! Drinks at Lefty's and dinner at the Candledyck? Sweeeeeeet!!!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 13:57:00 (EDT) 

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 14:46:24 (EDT) 

Good to hear from you. Our agency should be getting some caps, etc., soon. Will reciprocate when we do.

Bain
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 17:03:33 (EDT) 

Many of us don't like Ruger because of the owner's statements on gun control, a purely political decision. Winchester makes a good rifle but probably one doesn't hear much about their actions and rifles because of the heavy influence the Marines and Army have, given their choice of the Remington action. That leaves Savage and Remington.

What do you want? If you're going for an inexpensive, out-of-the-box system, without many future intended upgrades, Savage may be right for you. You can probably get into a complete rig (rifle, scope, rings, base)for as low as $750. Choosing a Savage probably also makes sense if you aren't planning on giving it any serious use in the field.

If you plan in the near future on seriously upgrading, Remington or Winchester are probably better. I say this for two reasons. First, there are many good upgrade parts (e.g., stocks, triggers, mounts and rings) for these rifles as compared with the Savage. This is especially true of rings and mounts for scopes. It's not impossible to upgrade a Savage, Russ has done so and Sarge is in the process of doing so, it's just not as easy.

Second, is what I call, for lack of a better phrase, dependability and trustworthiness. Few if any off-the-shelf guns can live up to the requirements of a full-time sniper rifle. (Don't believe me; look at the military's experiences with the Winchester Model 70s used in Vietnam.) True sniper rifles must take a lot of abuse while absolutely, positively delivering the shot consistently on target. Occasional weekend trips to the range, etc., do not constitute a sufficient test to compare stock rifles, if what you are looking for is the real thing. Since true sniper rifles today are custom-made, the first reason comes into play, and probably Remington or Winchester win out as the action to choose, though keep in mind that a good gunsmith can do wonders.

I note that much of the argument between Remington and Savage hasn't been about what's better. It's been about something else. The argument, at its extremes, has boors on one side and whiners on the other. The boors are those with more money than sense who slavishly follow the latest fad, buy the most expensive equipment, and have disdain for those who cannot or will not do the same. (Those of you who are students from a particular school will know what I mean. One of your fellow students, "Noodles," typifies this boorish behavior.) Having the coolest stuff does not make one a better shot or, for that matter, any good at being patient and stalking a target. We don't need the type of enthusiast who is a boor. He should have his a-- kicked and his stuff split up among the rest of us.

Then there are the whiners. Those who tout the extreme accuracy of their bargain-basement rifles and inexpensive optics and ridicule anyone with better stuff than they have. Though normally we eschew political or ideological commentary on this page, I believe it important to make an exception now: Such talk is the kind of classist bulls--- that we have had forced on us since FDR and the New Deal. It is liberalism's great weapon. Those who succumb to class warfare do not deserve to enjoy the benefits of this great and free society and are not welcome on this page.

Because someone has something you don't and it costs a lot of money, that is no reason by itself for you to criticize the other person. At SMTC this month, I saw a lot of guys shooting custom-built 700s from Mike Lau, the Chandlers, and Andy Webber. Some of these guys were through and through civilians, some LE, and some ex-SF and Army Ranger types. These successful, mostly white collar, shooters with their $3,000+ rifles could outthink, outstalk and outshoot any of you whiners with your $300 "wunder" rifles.

What do you want? We all want to shoot better. Neither the cost of the rifle, nor the accompanying equipment, will make one a better shooter, though these factors may make one more comfortable and better able to learn. Think long and hard about what you want out of your rifle before buying anything. Look at the pros and cons of the various rifles, price out the options that you want, look forward to where you want to be with long range shooting in a few years, then make the choice.

I made my decision, saved my money, sold several good long guns, and went with the M21 and M24. It was the right choice for me, and I wouldn't want more than two long guns of standard caliber in my collection. Russ made his decision and has five Savages, along with a number of other long guns, many in nonstandard calibers. Based upon his needs and wants, it was the right decision for him. I wouldn't have done it and can elucidate my reasons for not doing so, but I'm not Russ. Two final notes: Buying a particular rifle just because I prefer Remington, or Russ prefers Savage, is stupid. Being boorish or a whiner will not be tolerated on this page.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 17:58:01 (EDT) 

Pat Lakin <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, Utah USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 19:07:44 (EDT) 

I'm feeling retrospective today. Turned in my keys to the office today and turned the sniper course over to my replacement. He is another former Marine sniper and I know the course will continue in the right direction. You guys that have retired from the military know the deal.

As I was packing the unavoidable 3 tons of books, papers and stuff that any normal human would throw away, I started thinking about the friends, assholes, enemies and the like that I have known over the years. I picked up an old laminated picture of a Korean war era Marine sniper and looked on the back and there were three signatures of instructors that I had worked with in Quantico and the motto "8541's rule". Took me back. There I was young, dumb and full of....uh.... well you know. Was is really 15 years ago? Damn.

While I was in Canada for the sniper concentration I was watching the youngsters from the 2nd Marine Division negotiating the program and I was thinking that these guys were the result of the program that me, Ghengis, Buzz, Spiffy, Shak, Pete, Snake, Gunny Hathcock, Capt Cuddy, Dick Culver and those before and after us had created and taught. I swear to God that I felt like a father watching his son's scoring touchdowns at a high school football game. WO Grant Treger and I were sitting on the OP for the stalk and I looked at him and myself and thought, "Yup, two old fuckers fixing to fade away."

Its times like this that I read the bickering about, Remington v Ruger v Winchester v Ross v Enfield v whatever the #^$% and I can't help but yell at the monitor "Its the MAN behind the gun that matters!!!". Its the heart of the Warrior, the honor and guts of the man that turns a boy into a sniper, a grunt, a machinegunner, a Ranger, a Green Beret, a Marine etc.

In Canada there were Parker Hales, an Accuracy International AW, Remington M24's, USMC M40A1's and civilian varients. Never once did I see one of those rifles drag themself out of a drag bag and put rounds on target. Never once did I see a rifle carry the team through 3 days and nights of rain, through near hypothermia into a hide position to wait silently for the moment to fire. They're called snipers.

Its the art of sniping that matters. Not everyone can do it, not everyone should do it. But those that wear the title are some of the best knuckle draggers in the world.

mrbullet - Tell the youngster I'll be around when he is down here.

Gooch
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 20:36:49 (EDT) 

Very eloquent and touching post. I know how you feel and it does take time to put it all behind you. It never really goes away when there is such a degree of commitment. The discussions on the site lately have been a bit "noisy." But, it is a finite subject, to the dismay of some, and I guess there is a "need" to find something to talk about. Butter Bar Bain made some excellent observations, especially as how "Noodles" was one of my students. You ever out in New Mexico, Arizona or even Cans Ass, feel free to stop in, throw your gear on the floor and know you have a safe house.

Bravo 52 Actual
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Cans Ass, USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 21:30:26 (EDT) 

Thanks for bringing it back into focus. It IS NOT just a game!

Stay Safe (all of you)!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Reflecting on it all in Quiet, West Virginia USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 22:34:56 (EDT) 

Butter Bar - if that eloquent disertation had come from anyone but you I'd have questioned it's origin! However, as you and others have observed and stated - it's the man not the weapon. A rifle is a tool, nothing more, just as to me a surgical knife is a tool for the surgeon, the rifle is the snipers tool to remove the "cancer" the command authorities have determined needs removing. And just as there are people that cannot and should not be surgeons there are those that cannot and should not be snipers, either through the cold hand of reality or circumstance, thats just life!

Gooch - man I sympathise COMPLETELY! I've had the experience of turning over the keys for the last time! Knowing that whatever I did to influence young soldiers, in the past, is now up to another! Man if you dwell on it it can really get to you! All I can say is Hang In there! There IS ANOTHER life after Military Retirement(and just plain ETSing)!! I know, Jarrett knows and I dare say there are a few others here that also know! Keep hard! Shoot straight, but keep shooting!

Damn we're in a deep, thought provoking, mood today!

Sarge just retires to his hide to reflect!
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 23:16:32 (EDT) 

To All: Remember, Guns don't kill people, Postal workers do!

Dos-vee-dan-ja.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
My Li'l Bit of Green Heaven in Grandiose, Ohio USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 00:02:57 (EDT) 

Bain Out
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 00:04:08 (EDT)

Yes, Nathan, I noticed your absence, and it's good to have you back.

On whining, "the best gun," and things related. I'm not sure if Mr. Bain was, directly or indirectly, referring to me, touting my "inexpensive" Savage, but I feel the need to comment. First, I've never claimed 1/4-inch groups, because I don't shoot at 100 yards very often, I prefer to shoot at 200 (the longest I normally have access to), and the best I've done is 1/2-inch at that distance.

Secondly, the Army knows no class system -- officially. Black, White, Indian... rich, poor... schooled or only marginally literate... you're all pukes from Day One. Eventually, with time, training, and luck, you evolve into higher forms of puke... but no puke is better than any other puke.

Further, I was raised in a lower-middle income family environment. I was raised not to look down on someone because they lacked money. Additionally, I do not look down on someone because they HAVE money. And for that matter, I don't look up to them because they have money, either. I never begrudged any man, Mr. Bain included, for having nice toys. I never called some guy an a**hole because he had a Corvette and I don't. And I also never laughed at anyone because of their inability to buy the meager goodies that I've managed to get over time. As for "whining" perse, my Dad didn't tolerate such -- transgressions usually resulted in being knocked from one side of the room to the other, end of discussion.

Perhaps I don't draw the "doctor and lawyer" crowd, but I get a few of them just the same. I get about 20 to 30 pieces of E-mail PER DAY (thankfully, it's gone down from the "60 to 80" it used to be, and I think the Roster has helped with that reduction, for which I'm grateful), largely "gun stuff" related. Most are simple "how do I do this or that?" type of questions, but a fair number are of the "what gun do I buy?" genre. I have to approach my answers based on what the guy wants versus what he wants to do versus what he can afford. A lot of guys are working in a factory (like I used to to) or perhaps on a section gang on a railroad (like I used to do) or any number of other types of jobs (like I used to do)... and they might have a kid or two and a wife. Should I "EVER" get some Ph.D. type of guy, making a cool $100,000 a year, ask me "Gee, Mr. Taylor, Sir, I want the very best rifle money can buy for long-range precision shooting -- what should I buy?"... well, I'll GLADLY recommend an AT1 M24, or a PSG1, or something from the Chandler brothers, or something else along those lines. However, that hasn't been the case. Unless you get into the "specialty stuff," most production rifles shoot on par with each other and unless you want "a name," you know my recommendation when money has been a factor (that is, when the guy didn't have much of it). Meanwhile, I'll continue to advise the rich and the poor with equal enthusiasm. I submit if people don't want answers, they don't ask questions.

Certainly, Gooch and others are right, "it's the man not the gun." I've said this myself. Any comments I had on Ruger No. 1s, as I'm sure Fred knows, even if he disagrees, are based on the history of the equipment -- not a slam of the entire Ruger line, nor of single-shot rifles. The Ruger company makes some fine, very strong, hardware -- again, on par with the products of their competitors. If you like the looks of something and have the money for it, buy it. If you like how it shoots, keep it... if not, return it, sell it or get it fixed.

On retiring, fading away, and departing: That's one thing I've never liked about the military -- saying goodbye. A lot of times, guys don't. They look down at the ground, escape to another room, or just get in their car and go. Tours of duty, with people you come to enjoy working with, never overlap completely. Someone has just arrived, someone will be leaving soon, and you come into an assignment in the middle of things. Someone's always coming and someone's always going. And as you get older, it seems there's always some kid hot on your heels who is after your job, your car, and maybe your wife. James put it very well, that it's "attitude" and not just a job. That's why soldiers don't "die," they "fade away." Just taking off a uniform doesn't mean you're no longer a soldier... or a Marine, airman, or sailor. So, Gooch? "Good luck," Semper Fidelis, and thank you for serving your country.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 02:23:56 (EDT) 

Kodiak, I tried to e mail you but keep getting bounce back. I have the rings and the scope, but the rifle has the wrong bases on it so I can't check re-zero untill next weekend. The rings look like they will clamp the scope tube down very well. There are four screws per ring and they are pretty wide. The QRWs don't look as nice as the Warne or Talley but I think they will probably hold better. BTW- I'll be using the QRW stuff to mount a 4X Leupold to a model 70 .458 so we shall see how well they hold...
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 03:03:19 (EDT) 

Sarge:Lets call the bad day at the hide a draw:)

Russell: I have all the supplies in for that little project you sent me info on. Will go it for on monday and e-mail you the details then,
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 03:11:59 (EDT) 

To Stagger: I agree completely! What good is it, for me, if I have spent so much money on something I can't afford to shoot. As Mr. Bain has pointed out, I've upgraded my rifle, but only as time and money have permitted. I'd like an AR-10, but why? I have a .308 bolt gun and my M1 Garand is a .308 -- so why spend money for an AR-10 that I don't "need?" As for an AR-type of rifle, my ActionMaster is cheaper to shoot in bullets and powder and cases. Now, there's a certain .50 caliber I'd like to get, but... why? Bullets are a buck a pop, or more. Powder -- HA!!! About 230 or more grains??? Cases? PRIMERS?! (Have you priced primers for .50s lately?) And then, optics. If I "did" get this certain .50 caliber rifle, when could I afford to shoot it? And if I don't shoot it, I'm not getting proficient with it... and so what did I bother spending my money for? If I'd have been in a higher income bracket, I might have gone with a Remington or a Winchester -- but I know "me," I'd have swapped barrels, frozen barrels, polished barrels... whatever. That's the way I am. No matter WHAT I would have bought, I'd have upgraded it over time -- but I was shooting sooner because of what I was able to afford.

Speaking of AR-15s, has anyone used (successfully) the Hornady 75-grain A-Max in an AR with a 1:9" twist? A 1:8" is recommended, but if the velocity was fast enough I would think the bullet might stabilize.

On publishing the laser rangefinder review: You might try John Gammuto at Shooter's News.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 04:37:00 (EDT) 

I´ll be arriving in LV on Wednesday around 14:00 and will be in the Palace Station, any one in the area ??? Bain ?

Spend a drenched wet day with Stefan at the range in Holland yesterday, and found out that we have the same humor. Were able to shoot only at 100 Meter on soaked paper, or pop little rocks in the berm at 350 Meters.
Shot the 2185 Semi in .300 WM with realoads for the first time, did´nt cycle, smeared the boltface over the brass, to hot a load, 70Gn N-160 behind a 190 SHPBTM, I´ll back of again and try again tommorow.Group size was OK with five holes touching each other, but could be better considering the creature comforts while shooting.

I really look forward to Nevada. *sneeze*

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 06:50:55 (EDT) 

I have not received the H&K info yet.

Came back from an "unsuccessful" raindeerhunt last night. After 10 hr climbing/yomping we spotted a herd 5km away coming in our direction. Then other hunters shot an animal in the front of the herd wich took a u-turn and disappeared into another valley. Followed the herd next day but a windchange made them disappear again. 3rd day yomping back to the car. 14hr march... The last mountainridge before decenting to the car was named "Whining ridge". I know why.

Met a local sheepfarmer looking for stray sheep before winter. He was armed with a standard M98K with Kahles 6X42 mounted in EAW short rail sidemount. He had the scope detached in a hard case. Classic rig.

I went into the mountains in full uniform with a Tikka M55 HB sniperrifle. My huntingbuddy had optimized civilian equipment and could have left me for dead. I'll try to get some tags next year if only to have a reason to re-equip:-)

My wishlist for next year:

Leightweight "sniperrifle" with 2 scopes in QD-mounts.

Rocky Snowstalker boots.

Norrona Dovre mountain clothing.

Norrona Pararanger rucksack. (used by Norwegian and other special forces)

Norrona is a Norwegian producer of equipment for extreme conditions. They have a referencelist like no other.

Crossing Alaska on foot.

Crossing Antarctica/southpole on skis alone unsupported.

North pole on foot unsupported.

Some of these mainiacs served in my National Guard unit.

If anyone is interested in Norrona equipment let me know.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 08:37:24 (EDT) 

You lucky dog. Lost Wages. It's a great place to visit once, maybe twice. It is a great place to visit with a bunch of guys. If you leave the city, be careful. I was born and raised in northern Nevada and it hasn't changed all that much in the past 100 years. There are lots of cows and damn few women. The cows are plenty nervous and what women there are tend to have "wide load" problems and they all wear pagers to warn folks when they are backin' up.
Enjoy. I always considered it a good sign that the motto on the flag of my birth simply says: "Battle Born".

Bravo 52 Actual
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Cans Ass, USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 11:34:28 (EDT) 

Pat#2
Good to hear from you!! Sounds like your staying active in the shooting game. I had to clean mine and hang it on the wall for awhile, my wife grounded me(HA) How did you do in the other match's?? I hear Wyoming will be a team shoot next year you had better pick your partner early(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 12:18:28 (EDT) 

Gooch,
Sir, I take my hat off to you - 'nuff said.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 14:54:03 (EDT) 

Russ: Tried the 75gr in my 1-9 twist AR-15 and had fair results with it. The bullet REALLY drops off at long rabge but once you get the distance and etc figured out you're GTG.

Bain: What was the name of the place you ate at? I'm really worried about you son!

To all who e-mailed me: Thanks for the welcome back, sometimes it's good to be missed!

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 15:20:47 (EDT) 

If anyone in northern Illinois is looking for a new rifle I found today what seems to be a good deal. Bass Pro in Gurnee, IL has Rem 700 BDL , teflon coated and synthetic stock in
7mm Mag, .308 and .270 for $299. The sale is on until next Sunday (Sept 27). I haven't checked the Shotgun News yet but this appears to be a good buy. It looks like I'll be getting a new toy soon.
Kodiak
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 15:47:08 (EDT) 

Well range day was NOT good! My .308 did it's normally superb job of hitting whatever I was aiming at. Now my .30-06 on the other hand is a VERY different story. Here is where old Sarge needs some help guy's as this is SUPPOSE to be my primary four legged hunting weapon.
I'm still trying to find a load this gun likes. As the mulies we have around here wouldn't take to kindly to 180 gr ammo (to be precise if I used 180's there wouldn't be much left of a mulie) so I lean toward 165's. But I'm REALLY open to suggestions! Powders: I've used N-140 - ok but nothing great, today used some IMR 4350, that was real crap couldn't keep a 100 yd group inside 2-3", though did give some 1" groups in my son's .243 with 100gr SBT, sooooooooooooo help Sarge out with some suggestions. Just can't seem to find this ones preference! Savage 111 right at a year old with a run of the mill 3x9 scope - hey its a hunting rig!
Thanks in advance guys!

Sarge creeps back to his hide, takes off his glasses and decides its time for a nap!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 17:05:30 (EDT) 

I find your comment that there won't be much left of a mulie after hitting it with a 180 grainer strange - why do you say that? Are you using HE 180 grainers? If the 180 grainer works in your rifle, use it on your mulies, and you'll still have lots of meat to eat. They are definately NOT smaller than the blesbuck and springbuck I've shot with 180 grainers from my 30-06 - and damage was minimal.

Mr. Bain,
I read your piece again, and was just wondering if you're just a little prejudiced against Savage? Have you shot them? Damn, I haven't even seen the bone of so much contention here in South Africa!

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
As usual, RSA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 17:44:08 (EDT) 

I'm still trying to get dry from spending yesterday out in the rain with Torsten. I wouldn't have missed it though! I really enjoyed seeing him in his Neoprene JUGA (Jäger Unterwasser Ghillie Anzug)!!! Things really got exciting when he donned his snorkel and stalked though knee-deep mud, only giving his position away because of the snorkels dayglo-orange tip.. Torsten, what a giveaway!!!
I enjoyed shooting your Mauser man!
A warning to anyone planning on meeting him in the states: Torsten said p*nis... He he he. (Beavis and Butthead style). I'll buy one of his Phrobis scopes for my Savage anyway, just because he made me laugh..... (?)

L8er,

Down periscope!
Stefan <sniper@tref.nl>
Under, Water The Netherlands - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 19:00:36 (EDT) 

Pat#2 <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, Utah USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 19:36:15 (EDT) 

Control versus push feed. I have read many articles that
stated that in dangerous game (and tactical shooting?)
the control feed action is better. However these articles
and venerable shooters fail to mention that a jam is easier to clear in a push feed.

Does anyone know how the 168gr HPBT became sniper King?

Darryl Todd <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 22:24:21 (EDT) 

That airplane problem got the old creative juices flowing again. Here is another problem for you. (To those in charge, feel free to delete this post if you think it is not appropriate here, maybe you can resubmit it to the Ballistic Solution of the month and replace that stinker that has been sitting there for the last 8 months.

You and your partner are in a foriegn country on a secret mission to terminate with extreme prejudice that terrorist named xxxx xxx. The latest intelligece reports indicate that this man will be riding a train car with his tali-ban cronies. He will be in the tenth car on the right hand side sitting next to the third window. Your only opportunity to accomplish you mission will occur in one hour when the train he is riding on will be traveling parrallel to a highway for 2 miles which is 500 yards away from the train tracks. The train will be traveling 60 miles per hour. The road is well maintained and little used. You notice that there is very little wind, not even enough to drift smoke and the chances that the conditions will be the same when you take your shot are good. Your issue weapon is chambered for the 7.62 nato and the ammo is the 173 gr. fmj bt b.c. .496 at 2600 f.p.s There is not time to set up a shot, your only chance is to hop in an armored limo which happens to be handy and leave right now. You will instruct your partner to drive at the same speed as the train when he gets even with the 10th car and the third window. How far do you lead the target and why? Time is running short, you have a train to catch!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 22:40:49 (EDT) 

Lance: More on grouping. You are going to get differences in size of groupings depending upon whether the rifle is shooting handloads made specifically for the rifle, or factory ammunition, which may or may not digest well with a given rifle. For accuracy and precision, handloads are the best. Not all of us handload, LE can't handload, and the military does so only for "special" work not proper for discussion here. If you are civilian, you can try Federal, Hornady, Winchester, etc., and see which cartridge works best in your rifle. For example, last time I talked to Andy Webber about this, his rifle preferred Winchester match ammo over all others. The Federal Gold Medal just wouldn't work for him. You won't know what works best with your rifle until you shoot a number of different types out of the gun. Indeed, one can make some of the same arguments for NOT recommending one brand of ammunition over another that one can make for not recommending one rifle manufacturer over another.

Daryl Todd: Yes. Oh, you want to hear (or read) it? The short answer is that the civilian and LE shooters emulate the military. The military went to the Sierra 168 gr. BTHP MatchKing because of its success in match competitions. Lake City match ammo just couldn't cut it anymore. Seeing the improved accuracy of the MatchKing in competition, the military wanted to use it in combat (something that some have said happened for many years before formal and official approval). The Dept. of the Army JAG gave approval and it was used by operators.

How it spread to the LE and civilian communities is perhaps a guess. Certainly, the military (and in particular, the USMC) has a great influence on federal law enforcement, namely the FBI. The FBI, of course, is a great influence on state and local LE. Perhaps as well, the success of the 168 gr. MatchKing in competition brought the major manufacturers and the civilian shooters over the bullet as well. At any rate, the bullet became the "Sniper King."

The 168 gr. has two limitations. First, it is good only until it goes transonic. This problem gave the military fits and so it is probably going to switch over to the 175 gr. MatchKing (the USMC and Navy are onboard, the Army and SOCOM are not yet). The second is more of an LE concern; the MatchKing, not being a true hollow-point, does funny things in a human body. Sometimes it expends all of its kinetic energy in the target and sometimes it does not. The Wound Ballistics Review covers this in great detail.

My uninformed thoughts? The 175 gr. is the way to go for military. Perhaps LE should use a true hollowpoint for their missions. (I leave it to the LE shooters out there to share their thoughts, I don't feel competent to express an unqualified opinion on the matter.)

Double Posting: Screw it. Scott and I used to do it a lot on Dave Reed's old site. S--- happens.

Bain
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 23:06:13 (EDT) 

Marius: Please do't feel like the Lone Ranger down there with your high scope prices. It is becoming more and more difficult to stay "snipingly fashionable" with the costs of Leopolds, Swarovskis, and Schmidt and Benders up here also. I don't care how wealthy you are, a thousand bucks as still a chunk of change for almost anyone. But this is what the police departments want to see, you have to make it available for them to putz around with before they place their orders.

Gramps; Its nice to have you back agains. I'm glad you were able to find the computer and keyboard, after being sexually abused by your teenage bride. Please tell us what that cane is used for???

Pat #2: UKRAINIAN SNIPERS! Good looking? Man---Vat da hell you been drinkin'. How many shots of Stolly did you have (Stolly is Russian - not Ukrainian). Samogonka is Ukrainian home brew! Damn get those eyes checked!

Gooch: Just reading your lament on leaving got me all weepy eyed, because I remember that day of being discharged from the Air Force. You leave with anticipation but also have reservations. All the friends you have will still be your friends. You did neglect to mention what you are going to do with your new found "Freedom" are you going back to Oregon and fish for salmon and drink Olympia beer? What ever it is, Mr Gooch, "good Luck from all of us.

Now to all of you who have double posted recently @$#^$&*%(^*^&^)$* ()(#&*%#*^&@*(()#%a*^ &&&$#@#^!!!)!)@(#&$^&$((, AND ANOTHER THING *&&%$$##&&, &^%^$#@$$%#%. Now let that be a lesson to you double tappers. (How's that Russ??) :-)

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Surviving the Rigors of a Dreamy Weekend in, Ohio USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 00:20:23 (EDT) 

My logic says that since the train and the car are traveling together one could shoot directly if there were no atmosphere since the motion of the car imparts a velocity to the bullet equal to the velocity of the train. Therefore, this is exactly the same as shooting in a 60 mph crosswind, with fixed target and shooter locations except that the "wind" will be uniform, which a real wind isn't. My computer says that the wind "drift" will be .41 inches per mph wind or 24.6 inches. So you have to set in 24.6 inches or 4.9 moa of lead. The bullet should arrive at the target .699 seconds after you fire with a velocity of 1776 fps and with 1211 ft lbs energy. The bullet will drop 15.9 moa from boresight. The rifle would be zeroed for 500 yards before hand. The vertical component of wind drift should be negligable. The problem with this method is trying to shoot from a moving car. It requires about a 1 moa max shooting error. A 2 moa error will be a miss. A 1 mph error in the car or train speed will be a miss.

An alternate method to eliminate the wobble of the car (what car is stable to 1 moa/sec) is as follows: Have the driver speed down the road (that armored limo should do 120) then near the end of the road lock up the brakes and stop. If the rifle is preset to 728 inches of lead (12.3 in/mph) or 145.6 moa lead and zeroed at 500 yards for elevation, you'll have over 20 seconds to set up, track the train occupant and fire when it's nearly perpendicular. Aren't those Redfield style mounts great to allow you to do that? Canting will be a problem with this method so get a scope with a level. This method still allows only a 1 moa total shooting error but its under the total control of the shooter. Wind has no
effect with this method.

I'm not sure which method would work better. Either way this will NOT be an easy shot.
 

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Phoenix, AZ USAUÇ?

- Monday, September 21, 1998 at 00:33:31 (EDT) 

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 01:47:52 (EDT) 

TorF , I´ll drop them your adress again, hopefully this time.

BOOT selection ?

What kind of footwear are you triggerpullers donning when heading into the bush ? Standard GI ? Or fancy stuff, can your feet yomp more than 30 k with them? and what are your preparations on your feet before you do so? Special socks ? inlays ? foot powder ? Anything in the possibles bag ?

With our feet being our only reliable means of transport lets see if you give them the same attention as the weapons!

Down into the Mud again ........(wish it were Camo-Jello tm)

Ende!

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 02:54:48 (EDT) 

I usually use regular norwegian GI boots. They are ok as standard leatherboots. For winter we have someting called footbags that you put the regular boots into. The footbags are 100% watertight and are wery well isolated against cold weather. The footbags have perfect fit and can be used on skis (NATO-planks) with kandahar bindings. Unfortunatly the footbags are too clumsy for yomping long distanses.

I've tried some civilian Gore-Tex boots. They don't last too long. My huntingbuddy is satisfied with his Rocky Snowstalkers. They are well isolated agaist cold and can be used in winter with only one pair of socks.

As I stated I have served with some guys who think it's fun to cross the poles on foot. One of them, Erling Kagge, has walked to the North Pole, South Pole and climbed Mount Everest. ( I've asked him why he do this. Reply: I don't like to work!) They have obviously some tips for survival. You are probably not going to belive this one, but here goes: Put a thin plastic bag on your feet BEFORE you put the socks on. If you have watertight boots the isolationlayers will stay dry and work 100% all the time.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 04:32:51 (EDT) 

The Norwegian record for 30km yomp with uniform, GI-boots, 6kg rucksack and a G3 is 1hr57min. You have to be able to walk the next day to be qualified...
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 04:41:12 (EDT) 

Kodiak,
You might want to check that sale out real close. It sounds like the standard ADL SYN. stocked Remingtons and they ususally sell for around $350.00 and sale price out at $290 to $300.00. I doubt there Teflon coated but they do come in a matt black finish and for the price are a good rifle. To have a rifle Teflon coated is expencive!! Good luck and good shopping!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 09:52:41 (EDT) 

"Its the heart of the Warrior...."
Amen Gooch. The beer is on me...

To Al the Lurking Guinny from New Yawwk. You da-man. Whipped cream anyone? Schweeeeeet....

Bain: WHERE ARE MY F**KING BLANKs you thieving lawyer! DO not deny it, I KNOW you have them!

COOL STUFF #1: For any of you interested, SMTC will be running sniper sustainment courses in 99. These will consist of weekend classes though out the year. It was great to hear that short-term recurrency training will be available. Expect a lot of scout/sniper related scenarios and Intel gathering. The role of the sniper is not just to shoot.

COOL STUFF #2: I just received an Armament Technology Tapered base and ring set. Folks, if you have need of something along these lines, this mount is the way to go. It is TITS!!! Sorry ladies. I just spent two weeks with some very hairy chested neanderthals and it'll take a day or two for the testosterone overload to wear off. Blame it on Dan Basso, Cromagnon Extraordinair! But I digress. This mount has a recoil lug, and is as strong as anything I have ever seen. It extends out over the recoil lug so you can use just about any scope/ring combination and it comes with mated and numbered Mk4 type rings. Review to follow.

Cool stuff #3: AT also sent me a set of their tapered shims. These give 15 moa verticle. The rear shim is still very thin so no raised cheek piece will be required once these are installed. If you have good mounts and rings but can not get out to long distance due to your scope, these shims are the trick. At $25 they are a steal.

Cool Stuff #4: Mil-Dot Master. It works and works well. I think just about every student bought one at the sniper course. Cheating bastards all! I am still faster with a calculator, but the MDM doesn't need batteries and has a lot of useful data at hand! It even gives you slope angles. Great tool!

COOL Stuff #5: H.S. Precision now offers a unique M700/M24 stock. It is an adjustable stock in that it has removable spacers (Andy Webber's Work) and it has a vertically adjustable cheek piece that is well done. No more creeping Length of Pull adjuster! This stock is excellent with a tapered scope base!

In closing:

My pseudonym is no longer Xring. Just call me Spider Bait. I do believe there is not a single living spider in Mineral County West Virginia that DIDN'T bite me in the last two weeks. This must be how spiderman started....Goochman, what's a sniper trainee to do? Next thing I know I'll be spitting on my food and waiting for it to disolve before I eat it...
 

Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 10:11:48 (EDT) 

As to scopes, you get what you pay for. Don't look for Objective lense, power and tube size and expect them to be the same. What you are looking for is light gathering, clear picture to edges, and ruggedness. The Military choose the Mk4, but statistically it has a small exit pupil so brand "X" with a 56mm Objective and 30mm tube should be better? Wrong the quality of the lenses on cheap scopes is not good and try to shoot them in low light and you can't get a sight picture. When buying a scope don't just pick it up and look through it in bright light, thats like kicking the tires on a car lot. Don't cheap out on the rings. It is a weapon system not just the rifle or scope that makes it work. Mike M.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN>
Calif. USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 12:40:28 (EDT) 

I don't how good I will be with it but my gunsmith is a very high ranked shooter and said I couldn't get a better gun for learning with and eventually doing well with.

My point is to say thank you for your advice as well as others who pointed me to the best production gun made at the cheapest cost. Out of the box Savage is best(period).

In regard to cost and my income, anybody who isn't bull headed/selfish or just plain foolish (especially when you have a family) won't waste it no matter how much he makes. Sure these manly types say my wife won't or if my wife finds out or my wife this or that, but what it really is these guys are covering up for their responsible sides saying it ain't right to cheat my family for my benefit.

I will be shooting for fun/hobby. If I am good maybe I can get a job using a gun (doubtful). But hey my wife has waited 20 years to get the house done, I'm talking a yard that is currently nothing but rocks and holes in the furniture from my ankle biters. So you and anyone else who spends time answering the stupid question what gun should I buy, is helping us ignorant people to ask the right questions.

So to all who took the time to help me thanks, that is the reason why I try to put some things back into this site.

Finally to all you people who ask stupid questions thank you also, sometimes I can't figure out how to even word the stupid question.

Mr Bain: I am glad you are happy. I think every gun is cool just like every pocket knife. And i do appreciate your sentiments. But I felt that you were speaking to many like me who out of ignorance say my gun shoots 1/4MOA at 200yds out of the box and then don't go on to tell you how many groups of how many rounds and the cleaning process used and how the bird sh-t that fell on my trigger finger caused a single flyer.

I agree that the Boors and the Whiners can get on my nerves but this is an open forum and intelligence should not be used to decide a persons ability to input or extract.

By the way Remington's suck and Savage rules. Nanna nanna Boo boo. (just having some fun).
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
FR, VA USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 13:30:31 (EDT)

I did the six round drill in 1.60 sec with one of Rods 9mm and took 3 in the comp.

Spider Bait that's a good name for you Xring you wear it well. Friday night we when back and got that black item at the candelwick that Mr Bain missed! SWEET!!!!!!!!! LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 16:06:43 (EDT) 

Just received my mildot master slide rule range estimating
tool, and it is really slick.

If you do any type of shooting, get one. It will save frustration over dead calculators when the batteries go south in 20 degree weather, or you accidentally smash the life out of the calculator, or any one of a hundred other
things that can go wrong.

Buy this mildot master thing.
Scott
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 18:46:40 (EDT) 

To Bain :Land line me sometime soon!
To Scott I have some pictures to send you.
To LeMay and Co.: Sweeeet!
To Team Dallas: Please come back next year.

Al

Uncle Nunzio's Nephew <rempss@aol.com>
New Yawk USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 21:47:30 (EDT) 

As for Tom Scott, I'm not sure what all of your points are, but let me address one fallacy in your post. There is no one "best" rifle. Not even the amazing Savage. You will never read from me that Remington is the best, nor that Savage is the worst. I will tell you that based upon my criteria, a Remington-based action was the way to go for the bolt gun and the Springfield was the choice for the semi-auto. Others would make different choices. I may disagree, but I respect the choices, when well thought out.

Let me repeat the essential question: "what do YOU want?" The Savage is nonstandard, has a cheap stock, and a very rough bore. The company compensates for the bore with a tighter than normal chamber. Remington is the indsutry standard, has a good stock, but is built so as not to blow up if shot with an overpressure handload. To get good accuracy out of one, often it is necessary to rechamber the barrel. Savage is easy, dollarwise, to get into. Remington, because of its predominance in the market, has much to say for the shooter looking at a custom gun. You make the call based upon what you want out of the rifle.

One thing is certain; this isn't about how much a guy makes. If you really want something, you'll find a way to make it happen. If not, you won't. Some of my peers own state-of-the-art, surround-sound home theater systems, others are satisfied with just a black-and-white tv. Most of us fall in the middle, because our priorities are different.

We all make our choices in life. I don't begrudge anyone theirs. I sure as hell will no longer tolerate those who are smug about their choices -- whatever they may be -- vis-a-vis the choices of others on this page. That was at the core of my post. Doing so is not the free exchange of ideas, but is the childish behavior of the mentally and intellectually stunted. This is not a slam of you, Tom, you've added much to the site (Kodiak too). I'm just tired of the bull----. I advise anyone with further comments on the subject to send them to me offline.

Bain
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:01:23 (EDT) 

Team LeMay: Outstanding. Thanks for completing the "mission." E-mail offline with the particulars. (I knew it would be black.)

Spider Bait: How's your partner doing? He shot well. Hear you guys smoked the surveillance and intel gathering portion of the course. I suspect that there will be press coverage of Cory's cover story. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

Bain
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:07:43 (EDT) 

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, AZ USAU - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:40:52 (EDT) 

Also would like to be in contact with those folks interested
in precision rifles who live in Northern AZ or Southern UT.

I am a law enforcement officer. I am not a sniper.

Please send any order ideas or suggestions to
moosemcnally@yahoo.com. Hope to hear from ya!
Shawn McNally <moosemcnally@yahoo.com>
Page, az USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:43:55 (EDT) 

Bain: Knew you were alright when you said the M-21 was your rifle!!!!! Butter bar or not you're OK in my book son, (I do worry about your choice of eating places though)!

Russ: Steady on man!!!!

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 09:06:24 (EDT) 

straight shooting..
Haraldur Gustafsson <hg@eldhorn.is>
Egilsst., Iceland - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 09:17:30 (EDT) 

Kodiak,
Sounds like a great deal!!! You really got lucky on that one I hope you bought one or two!!

Bain,
I'am probably showing my ignorance here, but what the hell is SMTC?? It sounds like a good time with some great guys!!
P.S. Can't we all get along!!!I'll bet the only thing that this bunch would EVER agree on is that this is a GREAT sight(HA).
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 09:44:00 (EDT) 

Al (uncle Nunzio's)!! You crawled out of your hairy chested hide! Schweeeet. These photos include said waitress I hope? No? Drat. Ok, I'll happily take possetion of photos of the September sniper course grads. Hey, how'd you like that tracer fire?

Bain: Lemay lucked out. Don't let him snow you. I went back to pick up the item and the person in question could not remember where it was placed. He came by later after they found it agian.

Bain: Partners fine...for an accountent. Yeah, we had some good intel for the mission. Between the drawings, FFPs, floor plans and structural analysis, we did ok. Cory is an actor of the first order. Not too shabby for a Florida hick! hee hee....I bet the person in question is still drooling over the prospects. At any rate, the excercise was excellent. Intel gathering is what it is really all about isn't it? Wish I had started that day unhungover!

LeMay and Herrig: you guys coming out to the West Virginia IDPA State Championship? Sounds like you are ready! Looking forward to whoopin' yer *ss.

To ALL. enough of the "this verse that crap". We all buy what we buy because we like them. If Savages cost $600 each Russ would buy them and do not let him tell you otherwise. The point is, no matter the cost, people generally purchase that with makes them feel good or that which they enjoy owning. They usually work their budget around their perceived needs. This is getting to be a dull topic and just ain't worth pursuing any further. Lets get into thing that will give LeMay a warm fuzzy: The PINK Mist! Schweeet!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 10:27:47 (EDT) 

Pat: SMTC is Storm Mountain Training Center and is between Keyser and Elk Garden, W.Va. Like all good firearms academies, it is run by a former SF NCO. Even a butterbar can respect that!!! Whoops, gotta run!

Bain out.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 10:27:47 (EDT) 

General: More money doesn't make a better gun. I have never believed you can get something for nothing nor do I believe the opposite that the more you pay the more you get.

By the way happiness is about to overtake me, my stock is coming back today. It is a standard laminated Savage stock that I had a friend cut back the finger grip area to adjust my finger rest and indented for my thumbs swell. Everything but my trigger is standard, it just took a little tender loving care to assure the firing pin protusion was consistent and centered. But I will work up loads on my $600 308 and let you all know how poorly I shoot and how good it shoots.

Let me ask is 200yds the best distance to judge accuracy, is 10 five shot groups good enough? I will shoot the first shot after allowing the barrel to cool completely and having been cleaned at a seperate target to give first shot accuracy. Or is there another more acceptable method?

Mr. Bain: You add spice to this forum. Thank you.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 10:51:27 (EDT) 

Spider Boy : When is the state match give us dates we will try to make it because were shooters.

Bain : I agree go for the young one next time.

Al : Have you recoved and walking better after a week away from Dan?
Herig <raeh@iquest.net>
Muncie, In USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 12:20:58 (EDT) 

I started using Moly coated bullets and no more Copper Fouling, but a Scientist friend says Moly is trouble and now I am worried. He says molly was used in Nuclear Plants for lube on bolts, but that under high temp. (500 degrees F) it actualy infiltrated the molecular structure of the metal and stress cracks happened. Has anyone else heard of this. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL>
Calif. USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 12:45:43 (EDT) 

I just happen to have my Varmint Hunter mag. handy so here's some address's for you: Redding Manuf. 1089 Starr Road, Courtland, NY. 97603, Telephone 607-753-3331 For the brass try Grayback Wildcats, 5306 Bryant Ave. Klamath Falls OR. 97603 Telephone 503-884-1072, Hope this helps,

Bain,Scott

Sounds like a fun place but,alas,to far away for this country boy and I'am probably to old and slow to be crawling around in the woods anyway!! PS Scott, I hate spider too!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 12:46:19 (EDT) 

By the way, Pat, if you are too old or tired out to swing a full two week course, keep in mind that SMTC offers a two day (weekend) long range rifle course. The farthest you'll have to walk is from the car to the range. You'll shoot steel from 250 to 900 yards. Schweeet....

Doc, a butter bar is a second leiutenent. Bottom of the food chain. Lower than dirt. Fetches coffee for everyone above him...Kind of like an intelligent dog. A rank best unassed as soon as possible! Bain looks and talks like one... ;-)

Ray, poor Al probably missed Dan in a big way. With out him, there is simply no hope of another whipped cream event. None at all...

Team Herig: I believe the IDPA State Championship is in October. I'll try to get you the info today. And yes, I'd have to agree with Ray, he is the brains in the outfit. His wind dope was usually dead on. Although his choice in Keilbasa, weeeell....

To all of you who didn't attend the course with us, I apologize for all this inside joke stuff...the class had some of the most notorious characters one could ever hope to spend time with. A total blast. But alas, most of the stuff has to be censored...Hell, if we posted a picture of Dan's face on the site, it would crash!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 14:44:01 (EDT) 

If you are not members if IDPA, ask Rod to set you up. The courses of fire are excellent at this match. The competition is pretty stiff but the shooters are great guys. You can get all the information on the SMTC website. Follow the link to IDPA and then to the SMTC IDPA club. I am looking forward to whooping you both in the stock service pistol division! Uhrahhh.
You both show up, the first round is on me. I think I owe you one...or two or three...Hmmm...maybe you-all should just go hang with Nugent that weekend. I am not sure I can afford the tab!

Scott <Bugs.R.us>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 14:55:22 (EDT) 

Seriously,I was honored to be in the company of all of
you and hoping to see you soon at Storm Mountain.

Get ready for CS2 next year and youse better be there
cause I know where you live!

Walking better, Al
Uncle Nunzio's Nephew <rempss@aol.com>
New Yawk USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 19:09:15 (EDT) 

Got a question for all you reloaders out there who reload with military brass.It has often been said that military brass has less case capacity due to its heavier construction and resulting case wall thickness compared to some commercial brass.

So having said that,how much variation in weight/case capacity between the two brass types can be considered significant or relavent to have an affect on chamber pressures and accuracy ?

For example,I'm trying to reload .223 for my AR-15's.I measured some Canadian IVI military brass and the weight averaged 100.2 gr. versus an average of 96.2 gr. for the commercial brass I've tried.The highest powder charge I've tried to date (25.5 gr. W748 w/69 gr. Sierra Matchkings)have shown little pressure signs in either case.This particular load is not very accurate in my weapon however.

I know that you should allways reduce propellant charges and re-evaluate your loading when a component change is made but I'm curious as to how much case weight variation is within normal and acceptable boundries.

Any comments or experiences that anybody can share would as allways,be very much appreciated.

SCOTT:Enjoyed your article in T.S. very much.Great Job !

Thanks,
Jeff B.
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 19:45:22 (EDT) 

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 20:44:44 (EDT) 

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 20:54:59 (EDT) 

Now I shoot between 1 and 4 times a week, every week since April.I guess about 3-5,000 rounds over five different rifles.So I am improving a little bit.In the one competition I was in in July I shot a respectable 5th place.168 3x offhand at 100 yards at NRA 50 yard targets.

My question is what groups do you all get and still call yourself snipers? 1 MOA? 1/2 MOA? more or less?I guess what I am trying to figure out is how bad I really am in relation to some of you proven shooters should I ever decide to shoot in competition.

I realize I am not ready yet as I am just trying to learn how to dope wind and I must say it is not easy to learn on my own, but I am trying.I someday hope to call myself a long distance shooter. Take care
Bill Mohr <billmohr@borg.com>
Utica, Ny USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 23:47:53 (EDT) 

"we sell moly slide at Village People concerts"
oh that's too much, somebody help me up off the floor

Kodiak, I had my smith order the right bases, he said it's no problem, he used the QRW system on a .450 Dakota and it held but the recoil busted the guts out of a Vari-X III...
 

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 01:33:21 (EDT) 

Jim Liles: I was very interested in the Chistensen for some time due to the hype that the barrel appeared to dissipate heat rapidly. I have no patience when it comes to cooling down. However, I was informed that carbon fiber is an insulator and this was confirmed when I spoke to Chistensen. Having an insulator around a very thin barrel liner strikes me as a great way to burn out a barrel quickly, especially as the shroud will not indicate your actual heat level.

I have just received my Armament Technology tapered shims. Slicker than owl shit. That's all I can say about them. I'm so excited to finally see a properly engineered and executed product that I've been speaking to Mr. Webber about building me a rifle. Whoops, the mildot master and slope doper are both extremely good products, it's just the big companies that suck. If I want to use bullets in the 175-180 gn range, is there any need to tighten up to a 10.2 twist?
Wouldn't common sense dictate that ALL scope bases be tapered? While I'm on the subject I'd like to mention that, if it wasn't for the front dovetail, I would have lost my scope on my .338 the other day. Hasn't it occurred to any of the manufacturers that the Redfield windage adjustable ring needs a larger contact point with the base? Definitely not designed to handle recoil.
Has anyone had any luck experimenting with the Barnes X boattail? It's the only bullet offering SUPERIOR terminal performance with a high BC. If you have gotten them to shoot, any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post,
Andrew
Andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
Austin, TX USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 02:07:01 (EDT) 

The correct way to take this guy out is with a few cruise missiles targeted on his home. That is the current method approved by the Executive is it not? It's kind of nice to be able to shoot sub-soa (sub-second of arc) groups at 200 miles.

Next assignment, Sir!
Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, Arizona USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 03:24:25 (EDT) 

I need an answer ASAP please. an ARMALITE AR10 for R2,500, basically US$400 - is that bargain or not? That is all the info I have.

Does it come in different calibres? Or just .308? Is it semi-auto? I seem to think so. Remember, when I read these things on the page I just scan through, not to remember, 'cause we don't really get these things in South Africa.

Marius

Marius Ferreira <ferreiram@samcor.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng RSA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 07:24:25 (EDT) 

Torsten: You're as bad as Russ about answering your phone!

Bain: Are they gonna keep you at Butter Bar forever? A good man like you that shoots an M-21 should at least be a Captain! Now that you explained it, GOOD CHOICE on the eating and drinking place!

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 09:04:36 (EDT) 

With 168 Fed GM I can consistenlty shoot .6 moa (or less) five shot groups from the bench or from the prone supported. but any lapse in consentration will open the group up. If you are shooteing at greater than 200 yards, wind will play hobb with you if you missed a windage change and you will see groups go south.

Good luck in your rediscovered hobby! Welcome to the money pit!!!
Scott <xring>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 09:15:23 (EDT) 

I'am probably not the one to answer your question but I know several snipers and exsnipers and was a LE sniper for several years, which is much different than the military,
but I can tell you this, it takes a lot more to be a sniper than being able to punch little holes in paper at 100yds!!
You have to be able to judge distance and wind and be able to shoot in all types of conditions after crawling or laying in your own piss or shit for hours at a time, make a shot that may mean the difference between life and death (your own or someone elses) I guess what I'am trying to say is snipers aren't people who shoot little holes in paper, their a special breed few people will ever understand and most are excellent long range shooters. I think you need to compare your talents to a benchrest shooter not a sniper.

Jeff B.
I use a lot of military brass and I have found that usually backing down one grain is a good ball park figure to come up with the same loads as you would get with the commercial cases. I like it because it reloads so many more times than the commercial brass. I try not to mix brands though and I also like to keep the same lot or at least year stamp if possible. I like to think it keeps those nasty flyer's out of there(HA)
Pat <mrbulelt@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 09:58:40 (EDT) 

Marius: Great find! I see advertised in Shotgun News from time to time original AR10 parts kits, so it should not be hard to get spares for you. $400 is a great price for a great piece of history. If memory serves correctly, there were some African countries that adopted the AR10. I'll bet this rifle has some great stories to tell.

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 11:49:11 (EDT) 

Does anyone out there know of a place where I could find some Lake City "Match" brass for a 308 preferably 1990s or even 1980s (once fired)?? If so would you please e.mail me. Thank you!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 12:34:01 (EDT) 

Scott and Bob......You two are truly sick twisted individuals.....I'm proud to have been aquainted with you...*snif* sorry, don't mean to get sentimental.

Ray, Jim...let me know when you two are going back for sustainment courses. (don't tell Bain that she only showed the garments in question to us, I'm gonna get'em next time.!!)

Scott....her husband came in looking for you....better get on the scope!

Damn was that AT-1 M-24 a fine rifle....I went to the bank yeterday to get a darn loan to buy one. Andy webber is to be commended for one fine piece of hardware. I'm in love....

With the Rifle, not Andy.

Later Gents!
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FLA USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 13:11:20 (EDT) 

Al.....thanks for all of the help, I learned alot. I always thought people from newyawk were twisted individuals....now I know I'm right.

Mr Basso, you are a truely sick and twisted individual....Don't change anything.

Hey, Bain, I want a copy of the news paper article when it comes out! Keyser will be a booming place when it gets those 700 jobs. Everyone did an outstanding job on the intel mission. the "flyboys" were the best.

Marty, Thanks for the PSS information....I'll be back at ya in a week or two.
Cory <wilsonc@doacs.state.fl.us>
On the beach, USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 13:40:44 (EDT) 

Hope everyone made it home safely from the second week. I had a great time and wished I could have stayed for week two. Hopefully Tim and I will do it again next year. Sure going to try. Thanks to the Assistant Instructors for all the help! Demetre, thanks for the recon. Rae and Sweeeet...let me know when you're coming in for the shoot in Dallas. If anyone else is coming let me know.

Jerry (Team Dallas)
Jerry Iliff <iloaf@swbell.net >
Dallas, TX USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 14:17:54 (EDT)

By the way, did anyone ever figure out what that big black one was with the yellow tiger strip on its back? I let one use my leg for a highway during one stalk! I figured it was bigger than I was so I'd just sit real still till it either had its way with me or lost interest and moved on!

Great news on the AT1-M24! I wish I could do this too. Andy has got one of the absolutely finest sniper rifles on the market today.

Husband? husband? Hmmm....I'll give him Al's phone number..yeah, thats it!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 15:25:55 (EDT) 

This rifle is selective semi-auto/automatic. It is of .308 calibre, and was built around 1968 in THE NETHERLANDS. He says this is printed very distinctively on the rifle. He claims these were mostly made for the Lebanese Christian Militia, where he was a mercenary as well in the early eighties. He has had the rifle now for 16 years, and the previous owner had it for five years - in Australia. We were discussing Armalite in general, and I forgot to enquire about the condition of the barrel. He did mention that the working parts are in mint condition, but that one small pin ( selective fire pin? ) is missing. The rifle has been repainted from its original green/brown ( forget now to what ), but a good job was not done by whoever did it, and that paint is peeling.

Also he claims about 4,000 of these were ever made. He said even some Japanese AR10s were made at some stage. He does NOT have internet access ( else I would have sent him here pronto ), but was not very receptive to the idea of Armalite America building AR10s - said I'm most probably mixed up with the AR15! Russ, I even him about you working there, and he still wouldn't believe me.

So, what does the experts say?

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 15:31:27 (EDT) 

Pray that I get that damn loan. I would hate to have to start selling the kids and the wife to get an AT-1.

BAIN: no more for you! you missed the undergarment in question. It was hanging right in front of you. I related the story to my secretary...she said she would have taken them off right there and handed them to us!

To get on a Rifle related subject...I was thrilled to death to be able to shoot Rods AT-1 M-24 SWS by Andy Webber. I loved the stock on the thing. the tapered scope mout was very well done, and the trigger was very smooth and broke very cleanly. All I know is I have to have one...no more messing around trying to get by with factory stuff. Although the Remington PSS that I shot did very well also.

Scott, I went to the range after work yesterday and shot the .300 WM with non-moly bullets...It was back to where it shot before...around 3/4 moa groups....that Winchester factory barrel just did not do well with that moly ammo. it took a few rounds (30) before it settled in again. It really likes the 180 grain load better. I think between the moly and the heavier bullet it just choked. And actually it does the best with 150gr Winchester hunting loads. Which tells me the barrel has got to go. Off to Mcbros it goes.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 15:56:19 (EDT) 

WWII Hand to Hand Combat Seminar @ the Marshall Civic Center,Marshall,Tx. October 17,1998. Quest speaker John Kary Master Instructor and founder of American Combatives. Topics to be covered impact strikes; impact sequences; knife defense; weapon retention; multiple attackers. Master Kary's students includethe USMC Scout Sniper unit 2nd Batt.25MAr.,USA 19th SFG,DOD SPec OPS. and W. Virginia State Police.
Joe Green <greenj@internetwork.net>
Marshall, Tx. USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 16:37:17 (EDT) 

Cory Says some of you may be interested in wilderness survival training. Visit my website at www.globalprinciples.com

All of the classes are based on approved USAF combat survival courses as taught at the various USAF survival schools around the country and the world.

E-mail or call us! we would love to hear from you!
Eric <emetzge@ibm.net>
Panama City, FL. USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 16:38:42 (EDT) 

The thing that matters most is the adjustment one makes to the loose nut behind the buttstock.

BTW, I've got a Savage .308 that'll put 'em all inside a half inch, and a bud has a PSS .300 win mag that'll come close.

I'm guessing that the Savage's barrel-nut system may make for easier inherent accuracy - Any thoughts?

Also, anyone try one of those Choate Ultimate Varminter stocks? Looks interesting.

Chuck <cosmiccharlie@my-dejanews.com>
stl, mo USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 19:44:19 (EDT) 

Glad to see that a bunch of you are becoming Armament Technology fans. Pass the word.

X ring - You gotta become one with the environment when you are doing the sniper thing man. Before doing a stalk you can do a varient of the firing line chicken bone cerimony. In this varient you smear chicken grease over your body and roll naked on the nearest fire ant mount. If the ants accept you they won't bite and you are good to ghillie up and go. If they don't accept you then you messed up some how and need to try it again upon release from the hospital.

I saw a SF guy do this one time only he used a ground hornets nest. It worked like a champ and after the epinephrine took effect he could breath just fine!

Seriously though Scott you bring up a good point. If you guys are just getting into the field craft side of this buisness be damn careful to know the critters and fauna in your AO and take action to protect yourself. You run into a lot of situations on your belly not normally encountered when you are on two legs. Between heat casualties, critters and poisonous plants I've probably had about a dozen serious incidents with students since I've been in this buisness. Although a rare example, I nearly crawled on top of a "dud" M203 HE round on Okinawa once. Watch where you are going.

Thanks for all of the kind words re: the retirement. Kind of a reflection on some of the type of people that find this line of work interesting I guess. Something about the experiences we go through that forms a bond huh?

Okay guys lets talk about something field craft related.

What is your favorite rifle support other than bipods? How many of you have experience using camera tripods? We have been using them in the military for years now and they are becoming SOP. How many of you guys practice with slings? THe canadian competition had an excellent stage which required alternate firing positions other than the bipod supported prone.

Lets get off of this "my dogs better than yours, because he eats kennel ration..." thing. Shit man, I don't even own my own sniper rifle! So I can't say anything. Always had an armory full of them to play with. I'll be saving my nickles and dimes to get my own AT-1 or maybe Andy will build me a C-24....Hmmmm maybe a Savage no....a PSS no....I don't know guys which do you think is the best?

Gooch out.
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 21:45:14 (EDT) 

I agree that I should be comparing my shooting to that of the benchrest crowd. But I have found that some (most) of that crowd are a little snobbish. If you don't own a fully blown BR race gun and don't wrap your arm so tight that it turns blue (to stop your blood pressure) they don't want to know you.

As I did my part for God and Country and am in the law enforcement field, I thought that this forum could be my niche.
Bill Mohr <billmohr@borg.com>
Utica, Ny USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 22:21:13 (EDT) 

Gooch: I never get bit by the spiders, snakes, etc. You know why? Professional courtesy!

Bain Out

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 22:36:53 (EDT) 

Bill - Don't worry about Pat and welcome to the land of long range! You'll find that here on this site everyone gets bit once in awhile. Watch, ask questions and join debates! Hell man, I try to stir as much s**t as possible on my bad days.

Gooch - crossed sticks with sling when possible. Use the middle three sections of a fishpole antenne and join with 3/16 inch bungee. Repeat then tie together with gutted 550 cord. You now have a bipod that reaches from 6" off the ground to a high kneeling postion. With the sling added for extra stability, it works like a champ. Use the old cotton web sling witht he slide adjustment keeper and figure 8 buckle. Sucker is lose until you need it then goes tight with a tug. Works great and you can still feel your fingers after several hours.

Spider Bait - Next time spread sulfur powder around your belt line, cuffs, and collar! If you can find old Lindaine powder, it even works better. Second choice is Lindaine cream (Crab cream). Put it on the clothes, NOT the skin. You may experience odd neurologic signs if you leave it on the skin for very long.

Pat - Sorry man, just turned in 58000 rounds of M852 LC brass. Maybe you could talk the Army out of them. :-)

Well 0500 is coming fast tomorrow morning so I'll head for bed and see if momma will rub my aching back for me.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 23:11:43 (EDT) 

Now I'm gone!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 23:19:09 (EDT) 

Gooch- I finally got Mike's book and a mildot master- its the cats ass.

I'm going to have to take my partner to SMTC next year. Scott, you and Bain are getting me psyched up.

When is this match in Dallas this month, I might try to attend.

Guys keep it schweeeeet!!
Brent "Swede"

Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 00:14:22 (EDT) 

I believe the reason that most police depts use the fed match 168 is due to liability reasons (factory load and all of that) and plus the fact that the FBI uses it (more liability stuff). Am I center mass here Rick? Rick is the man.

One problem that we have with the open tip bullets is a lack of penetration through hard mediums such as wood and cinder blocks.

Time to go night night.

Gooch out.
 

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 00:54:29 (EDT) 

Pat- If your still looking for Lake City 7.62 Match brass, it is available from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. I just bought a batch--virgin 1992 stuff.

I was at the bookstore the other day browsing through the latest addition of American Handgunner, and saw a blurb on Remington's new SWS, something like the Ultra Long Range Sniper Design (ULRSD). It is supposedly still "Top Secret", so the article was pretty general (6 sentences?). I can't remember the details but the round is suppossed to kick the .50's post-1000 yd. trajectory. Anyone else heard any of these rumors?

James--As soon as you find something to do in Kansas, let me know. I've lived here for 6 years and I'm still looking....

Choate stock guy-- I have one for my Savage. If you're small, this is not the stock for you. At 6'3" and 200+lbs, I like it. Plus, if my 110FP should ever fail me, I would feel comfortable swinging it over my head like a huge club, wreaking havoc on whatever's in my path. So, in theory, for $120 you're getting a dual purpose stock. Russell, did you find this to be true during your evaluation?
 
 
 

Matt
Eastern Cans Ass, USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 02:31:25 (EDT) 

Re: “Huge Club”: It is good to see that you have finely found an appropriate use for your Savage.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Just another Remington shooter from, West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 07:24:32 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain,
It's a good thing you said it or I would have. Kind of like the Shark joke(HA)

Matt,
We don't have any active program around my area that I know of but its a good thought thanks.

Rick,
I don't need quite that much but I sure would take what fell off the pallet!! Do you know of any sourse where you can buy some, I only need 1000rds??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 09:52:50 (EDT) 

On a serious note, I did carry an injector of Epinephrin in my ruck just in case. Never needed it, but I have seen the results of Bee stings gone bad. Not pretty. I have been stung, bit, ripped, gouged, eaten and swallowed alive by uncounted insects, snakes and dogs, but the thing is, you never know when your body is going to say, "THATS IT! This time your F*cked!" I got nailed by a yellow jacket a few weeks back and for the first time in my life suffered a reaction to beat all. Whole arm went numb! Scary. Gives the stalk a whole new face.

My big worry was the Brown Recluse. Didn't see any, but you just never know till the skin starts necrosing!

Pretty thought!

Speaking of Pretty Gooch, I finally got to see a photo of your evil emmeinence. Good shot of you and Andy Webber in The Police and Military Sniper. Just how old is Andy anyway? He just seems to darn young to build such a top notch rifle! The guy is a genious.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 10:05:14 (EDT) 

The students at SMTC came up with a real winner. They saw the need for height and came up with some Tomato stakes. These were aluminum rods about 4 feet tall with a green plastic coating. They had small nubbs on them that when in contact, tended to make the home spun tripod lock together very nicely. Tied with 550 cord, you have a great way to get up in the tall grass or overcome a rise in the terrain. Best of all, they only cost 99 cents each. My arrow shafts run $5.50 and are too short for a lot of situations.

Example: I spent 45 minutes cutting into the back of a bush to creat a blind to shoot through at the observer. I finally cut a window, and got back about 15 yards from the bush so I'd have some stand off to hide muzzle flash and movement. I set up the tripod, took a look though the scope and it became obvious that the arrows were not tall enough! Arrrggghhh...

The terrain dropped away just enough that my window was a no go. Worse, I couldn't lower the window as the observer would have been out of sight as he was up hill in tall grass. I needed those tomato stakes in a big way! As I only had five minutes left to make the shot, I was out of decision and prep time. I hussled up hill, took the shot in the open and got busted on the observers scan. Moral? Always think it through before you commit!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 10:20:50 (EDT) 

Jerry team dallas I am working on the airline tickes now.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Northwoods, USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 12:02:45 (EDT) 

Gooch,
Isn't the camera tripod a little heavy to lug around??
Do you guys use some type of adapter to rest your rifle on it?? On your own personal rifle, some guy just traded in a Jap rifle with a Douglas barrel on it in 308 at the local gun shop, this weeks special is $150.00!!! It could be yours Buddy, then you could be in a class all by yourself sort of and elitetest, you did say it was the man behind the gun not the gun(HA).
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 13:00:15 (EDT) 

Jarett: You are not far from prairie dogs, go shoot something, it helps even with missin the high desert.
 

Dave in Ok.
Dave Martin <theopair@aol.com>
Ok USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 17:23:32 (EDT) 

Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 20:06:17 (EDT) 

I'm about all done here on the high plains. I was not cut out for this country or this particular "institution of higher learning." What a bunch of crybabies. I do so miss a new class of Special Forces troops. Motivated, sharp, disciplined, gung ho. What a difference from the MTV generation Xers. I'll finish out the semester and then I'm heading back to Arizona for the spring. I'll be running a sniper problem in the high desert area of central Arizona in March. It will be a full tacitcal White Star Operation. I'll be heading back to Phoenix next week as an expert witness in the "bounty Hunter" double homicide trial. Wish me luck. The prosecution is typical -- convictions are all that matter not justice. Sure a different game than when I wore the badge. I'm still looking for a suitable 19th century long gun. I think 45-70 and maybe 1874 Sharps. Back to Oz.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail,com>
Cans Ass, USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 21:27:55 (EDT) 

Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Patagonia, AZ USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 02:37:47 (EDT) 

ANOTHER SOUTH AFRICAN! Welcome aboard!

You should try and contact some of the people at the Milnerton Shooting range, if you have not done so already. That is clos