Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 2001

Just bought a Remington 700 light tactical with the 20 inch barrel.

Anybody shooting one of these want to recommend a load that I can use out to 500 meters?

Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville , pa, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:10:56 (ZULU)

Im building a rifle on a model 11 Savage, and I need some advise.

1. With the piller bedding this rifle uses, sould the only contact point between action and stock be the pillers themselves or should I bed the tang as well?

2. Should I bed all around the recoil lug or just behind it? I have heard removing all contact except behind the lug will enhance accuracy. Also, should I add a barrel pad when I bed, and if so, how big should it be?

3. Can anyone guide me to a quality aftermarket stock, resonably priced, for a LEFT hand Savage 11?

I realize these questions are rather elementary, but i dont have access to a decent riflesmith locally. I would be greatful for any advice or help.

Tom Johnson <tejohnson_99@yahoo.com>
Ashland, Ky, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:39:43 (ZULU)

Ok, my last comments on the tank thing. I have no illusions of doing damage to a tank. I would NEVER use a 50 against a tank. Can’t crawl quietly with the dam thing and can’t get low enough afterwards. :-)

Marco - Yes, I will take a shot at a tank commander or driver at 300 to 500 meters with a 7.62 sniper rifle. If I can get them to button up then they are vulnerable to anti tank fire and my task is done. Again, I will not hurt the tank. This scenario started as an exercise living in the insurgent world and not of land battle 2010. The insurgent world is the world that I have lived in since 1967. I do not know land battle 2010. I do know that if you get into the insurgent world with your mind in land battle 2010 then I will hand you your pretty tanks just as the Mujahideen did to the APC. If properly set in then tank crews will see M2 50s nicely but will miss the little sniper. AS I stated, I am not trained in the land battle 2010 scenario, I only know what I have done to those that do live that scenario. You may wish to check out Soviet Doctrine in this very area. As SLUGBOY stated, if better assets are available then by all means use them but in the limited war scenario then there are all sorts of possibilities. Each is an available tool that needs to be exploited to the fullest. As far as the tankers kicking butt at 4000 meters, that is very true, they were against known enemies at known locations using BIG equipment.

Mike – The “bubble suits” themselves I feel are useless, as they will cause you to become a heat casualty if not careful. I rank them along side of the “stealth predator suits”. Try a ghillie suit made of “other” materials and you will be surprised how well they work at night. Now they are worthless during the day.

My students did well on snaps and movers this day. Will see how they do Tuesday after a weekend of debauchery. :-)

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 02:41:22 (ZULU)

Gents,

All this talk of killing tanks is making me want to develop a depleted uranium core .308 bullet that can penetrate 12" of armor...

I agree with Rick on this one...take out the commander if possible and get them to button up and your job is done. Have we hashed this one out enough?

George, nice new web site. If I added anything it would be a narrative description to your thumbnails to describe what each rifle is and what work was done...

RUMOR CONTROL: Had a call today from a friend. He indicated that Barnes Bullets has just got a large government contract for a 168 gr. .308 bullet with their blue coating on it. Can anyone verify this? Sounds hokey to me, as I'm not putting anything coated down my bores, until proven. Moly didn't pan out and I don't view this as anything different. Comments...?

Does anyone know if Remington has included thier new safety on the PSS series of rifles? Doesn't make any sense to me. This whole safety thing sounds like a great chance for someone to produce the standard bolt shroud and sell it. I WOULDN'T want one on a tactical rifle of mine. This whole "save the children" thread is getting badly out of hand.

As a side note: Cougar sightings are way up in the valley. Oregon does not allow hunting with dogs any more. Wonder how long this is going to last when someone becomes mid-rats for the big kitty.

'Lito, Now THERE is a cat worthy of your efforts!

Range time tomorrow, if I can get the casual hunter crew off the short 100 and 200 yard range. Something about them not liking me to shoot over their heads...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 03:09:42 (ZULU)

To Marco

I would engage a TC out to 500 meters with 7.62 . I would not dare to engage the TI unit with 7.62 Nato. I would possibly try it with 338 LM with AP ammo out to 600 meters but only if there are friendlies also around i.e. I am not planning to damage the TI unit just for the fun of it if there are no TOW gunners close by to take the tank out.

Ken: I did not know about the shutters. Does anyone know whether T-80 or T-90 has those. I am not interested whether M1A1/A2 or Leapard 2 has them as I do not really see USA or Germany (or Sweden, or Norway) attacking Finland any time soon.

One more thing on IT. In some countries like Finland and Sweden even M1A1 does not have too much advantage from its better electronics. Usually the tank battle ranges here are 200-1500 meters and most of the time less than 1000m. Where M1A2 really shines is that its armor can withstand 125mm APFDS ammo made in Russia and it has a good cannon that can defeat anything Russia has ever produced. The easy pickings in Irak out to 4000 meters are not possible in most European conflicts because the environment is different i.e you do not have clear view that far out and if you do not then TI is not going to help you too much as it can not see through buildings or woods.

If we start talking about LandBattle 2010 or something similar, then in theory the new radars and automated anti´sniper guns will in theory kill all the snipers. In real life the sniper will be able to operate as there NEVER are enough of hi-tech goodies in the field.

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 03:41:06 (ZULU)

Does anyone know anything about UltraMax ammo? Do they sell direct? The reason I am asking is a guy at the Idaho sniper shoot told me that he was able to buy Federal Gold Match through them at LE price (and he was going to get back to me and hasn't). I haven't been able to find anything but UltraMax being sold through a distributor.

Thanks, Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 05:58:50 (ZULU)

Howdy folks!! happy 3-day'er

Peter Lincoln:

Be careful, fella. Try pickin up a phone, call collect, keep tryin', ha!HS will set you up with what you want. As far as paint 'rubbin' off in 18 months, make it a point when you call. But call first. I have a 05F in grey/black webbing, had it for 5 years with many a round thru it, does not need a 'spruce-up' yet. That is not saying that your's doesn't, but call first and see what HS will do for you. The web-site is just an intro to what we offer, we also have salespeople who deal with customers personally.

Pat:

Folks, this here rostah fella stopped by so I could take a gander at his fine ware, the 6.5 x 284. I think he thinks I'm nuts after the looksee I gave her.

I'm surprised his response wasn't:

BARRELMAKERS ARE SCREWY. we're an odd lot, Pat.

Didn't like the stock. HA!!

When the velocity goes awry, seat yer bullets out further. hahah. Hope for a 160 VLD .264" dia bullet, hahah.. Shoot round nose fatbodies. Double HA!

Pat keeps a very well maintained barrel, and me thinks the rest of us could take note from this.

Sidenote eh Pat, me thinks you have run abrasives thru that bore? Maybe not, but I could see some (very) light pitting which is usually from JB's. Someday, I'll make an article of it.. hah!

It's a shooter though, would have liked to headspace it, no gages at work, but as far as groove diameter and bore condition, plug away!! Looks twice as good as my .300 Winnie Pooh, and she has 500 left before she gets the rechamber.

'Lito, lito, lito:

Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet?? Hmmmm.... So you are saying a 1/12" twist in one barrel may not equal the RPM's in another 1/12" twist barrel at the same velocity? It will not spin the same 1 revolution per 12 inches of travel for (x) distance? Or are you saying that a bullet may not break as freely as one barrel to the next due to the land structure?

Dude, or undude, once it leaves the muzzle at (x) velocity, if it breaks clean from the crown, the rate of deceleration of gyration should be constant, depending on the bullet. It's like comets and shit, isn't it?? HAHAH... Devil's advocate, his right hand man am I.....

You should be able to compute the approximate RPM's necessary to stabilize a bullet. This could be connotated into an 'angular' formula, which would be quite broad, but nonetheless accurate and not precise. If the thing is spinning, whether at 50K Rpm or 40K Rpm, results are the same?? NO! Perhaps at a certain range.

I agree that the 'bullet upset' will occur with different forms of land and groove structure, which will deviate the bullet because of deformity, but not the twist rate itself.

Paul, I'm pickin' yer brain cuz even though yer an old fart who lives in a dumpster to shoot cats, your constructive mind is still in fairly good shape, hahah. I have a pretty good idea what the answer is, but you are better at proving it.

By the way, we've got some big kittys closing in on the Rapid City area, in fact there was a Puma in town a few weeks ago!!! Give me a heads up and I'll line you up with an 'Executive' style dumpster ghillie. hoo hah!

Goin' goose huntin in the morn', check youse guys later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:00:49 (ZULU)

Chris Fenico <nico1606@bellatlantic.net>
philadelphia, pa, usa - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:10:49 (ZULU)

Anyone know if it is possible to buy a M24 (the army issued sniper rifle) and if so where, and how much?

Chris Fenico <nico1606@bellatlantic.net>
philadelphia, pa, usa - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:24:44 (ZULU)

JR - "Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet??"

I can't speak for 'lito, but I believe he was referring to the spin remaining after having traveled several hundred yards.

Extrude a bullet through barrel 'A' and it's shape and mass will have a certain rotational moment of inertia. Extrude an identical bullet through barrel 'B', with different land/groove dimensions than barrel 'A', and it will have a different shape, and thus a different rotational moment of inertia.

The greater the moment of inertia an object has, the more rotational speed it will maintain in the face of resistance, such as air.

Add to this the aerodynamic differences between the two differently extruded bullets, and you end up with two bullets with different rotational moments of inertia, and with different aerodynamics attempting to slow their spin.

Even if both bullets were launched with identical velocities and rates of spin, one of the two will have lost more of it's spin than the other by the time they reach the 500 yard marker.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 07:50:10 (ZULU)

ARMOR:

Just a couple of last comments:

1. Sniper Employment vs. Armor in a conventional unit against armor

is the same as what has been stated here about making them button

up.

Only difference is that the defender also allows the lead echelons

to bypass and engages from behind or flanks, especially from urban

areas. Soviet doctrine was for the lead echelons to bypass such

areas and let the follow on units finish them. The AA units have

supplementary positions to engage them as they pass by. Shoot and

scoot to the supplementary or althernate position was the order of

the day for the TOWs etc.

So, they remain buttoned up for a very long time; prior to your

position, while passing it and beyond. The snipers role in this

scenario is far more important to protect the defenders against

infantry, although by helping encourage them to button up protects

revealing where your MGs etc. are.

This type of defense relies strongly supplemental and alternate

fighting positions.

2. There are plenty of places in Europe where M1s can engage at 4K.

In fact, Germany more or less sculpted their terrain along the

areas where the Soviets would have advanced to produce wide open

fields with patches of trees etc., for the defenders.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 12:50:39 (ZULU)

Hi guys, sorry for the long delay in any postings. Here's the latest UNCLASSIFIED stuff on the .408 testing.

First, the initial 13 guns are in production, of which 5 are still available in 6 weeks, perhaps less. I am responsible for the special applications developments on the gun. There are already changes in the bipod mounting system that will eliminate the long rod from under the barrel. Sorry, the new method is under wraps until a patent is established for the bipod and mounting system.

The Idaho III test was done to test the OPSINC suppressor and the initial version of the fire control computer (which by the way works for any caliber that we shot in Yuma Proving Grounds).

The suppressed gun shot under 1 MOA all the way to the test range of 1500 yards for the suppressor work. Time limited us to this range as we could not go any farther. Once the pictures are posted in the photo section, you'll see how the can is mounted to the barrel. The suppressor gains about 30 fps muzzle velocity over the standard brake and retains or gains accuracy over the standard system.

The suppressor also repeats it's zero perfectly when taken off and replaced. This was tested over and over on the 25th of August to determine it's repeatability and durability. She gets hot though, as do all suppressors. The OPSINC suppressor is all stainless steel construction and has no wear out point, there are no replacable baffles, etc in the can. It is designed to be drained in less than 6 seconds when fully submerged and tipped muzzle down to drain. The suppressor can be fired after the initial flush is done.

The suppressor is the quietest that I have tested on a long range rifle. Recoil is very mild as with the standard brake and watching bullet impact at 200 yards is easily done. At long ranges, 600 yards and more, a shooter can easily correct his own left and right errors by watching for bullet impact. You do not loose sight of the target under recoil. That's true with the McArthur brake also, but dust is kicked up by that brake.

The fire control computer (software was installed on a HP Jornada 525 for testing) worked as predicted also. We used field data taken from our Yuma Proving Grounds tests for downrange information. This method uses NO curve and extracts the exact BC or drag co-efficient value for the range entered. It is then corrected for conditions.

Elevation data was tested to 2000 yards at times of the day when maximum conditions fluxuation were in effect. From 4:00 am to 6:00 am at the test site, the air temp chagned +20 degrees. A new calculation and shots were done every 15 minutes. Vertical impacts were within .10 MOA (measured from point of aim to center of the group).

The Lost River Ballistic Technologies M40 bullets have very little precession, requiring about 10% the spin rate correction of the conventional bullets (Lapua, Sierra, and everyone else). That required a tweaking of the spin correction formula. Also tested were the corrections for Coriolis or the earth's rotation. For those that don't think it's an effect, IT IS. Misses will occur at 1500 yards or greater on certain points on the globe if Coriolis is neglected.

The bullet's resistance to wind deflection also required a tweaking of the standard wind formula. A critical part of that formula is true flight time to the target. The LRBT bullets however, do not fly as other bullets do and using the standard formula results in overcorrections. That is also fixed.

At this point, we are moving forward with Version II of the software. The projectiles will be offered in two versions. The J40 version is for the civilian market and is a softer alloy. The flight characteristics are the same. The M40 projectile is for the military application, having a much harder material. The J40 leaves no copper fouling in a broken in barrel and is easy to clean.

Velocities will be 3000+ on the production guns based on tests. I know this sounds dry and clean, sorry, not much time. Have to get ready for another trip. More to follow, check out the pictures.

Dean

trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 13:46:16 (ZULU)

Guys,

Do any of you know where I can find US Army, USMC field manuals online? I was in a book shop, and found a British "Soldier's Handbook" and wanted to see what the US version was like. BTW, the British Handbook seemed to have a lot of good info. Lots of stuff about training drills for weapon handling, etc. was included.

Thanks,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 14:55:13 (ZULU)

Never know, the Germans might decide to rule the world again:) The M1A1 is important for our Israeli buddies because that's what the Egyptians currently use. I seem to recall that the modern T-80(like the U and UD), modernized T-72(like the UM varient IIRC) and T-90(non-export) and T-90S(export) have the TI mounted on the left side of the top of the turret(looking towards the front) and it's recessed into the top armour and baffled so that's it's vulnerable from about 10degrees either side of the main gun. Not cool from other angles unless your shooting something serious, like 30mm APDSFS. OK, here's a picture of the T-64BV(non-export):

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_64BV/T64BV_1.jpg

Here's a photo of the T-72BR varient, which was offered for export IIRC.

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T-72BR/T-72BR_Russe_11.jpg

Here's a T-80U which is is seeking fairly widely exportation into the Gulf states of the ME, and similar varients are already going to Pakistan:

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_80U/t-80u_7.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_80U/t-80u_13.jpg

That pretty much covers all the important modern Russian armour, with most modern tanks(T-80UD, T-84(Ukranian dieselized T80 for the most part)and the T-90 series being various combinations of different hulls, engines and turrets for specific foreign sales. Different armour packages, but that doesn't effect us one way or the other as nothing I plan on carrying is going to do diddly squat, even an AT4(don't even think of trying a frontal shot with one of these, or most any manpack shaped charge that's not top attack) That's just real simple tank ID, do some quick google searches for whatever you like or e-mail me and I'll send you some more photos.

Oh, I think somebody mentioned reactive armour vs Mk211. They are designed to be inert to MG's and small auto cannon, don't know if that works IRL. I'm thinking that some of the newer armour uses an outer layer of NERA(Non Explosive Reactive Armour) which uses a elastic material like rubber or in some cases fiberglass between two layers of armour plate and when it gets hit the outer plate moves around and eats up the shaped charge jet, reducing penetration. I'm not an engineer, this is just what I've read. The engineers I've talked to seem to think it works pretty good however. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 15:04:49 (ZULU)

Pack VS Bipod

For the three or so years that I have taken rifle shooting seriously I have always shot off my pack. I hate the way a bipod takes a set when you slap it down and you have to dink with it. A pack just seems to feel better to me. That being said I am going to break down buy a harris and endevaour to use it. I see people shooting better than me, particularily at 500yd and beyond with bipods and i dont think ALL of it is who is behind the trigger.

Ideally we would just pack sand bags into the field and use them as the consistency of there reaction to recoil is uniform. As no one wants the weight we use are packs instead. Unfortunately the packs reaction to recoil is not as uniform as sand or shot.

Not only is the the packs reaction to recoil less uniform than a sand bag but it also varies depending how you stuff our pack. If the pack is to react the same way everyshot it must be packed the exact same way every time with the same items. These items must be folded the same way and packed in the same order. What happens when you actually need one of those "items" like your pancho outside of your pack and need to shoot off your pack at the same time? The packs reaction to recoil changes is what.

The very thing that makes a pack fast to shoot off of , the fact that the rifle moves about on the pack, makes for another factor. Placing the rifle forend farther out on the pack or to one side of the fact changes the way the rifle recoils.

Lastly in regards to movement yes it is a faster first shot at ranges under 500yd to drop your pack and slap your gun on it and take the shot. But if you have to get up and move after this guess who moves first? The bipod shooter merely picks up his rifle and runs, the pack shooter has to get back into his pack or web and then pick up his rifle.

I still like pack shooting but I am going to try to master the bipod. Theyve broken me. By the way I forget what is THE Harris to buy? It should go well on the Mcmilllan A-2 Ive ordered.

Ben

Ben <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 15:24:05 (ZULU)

JR...

Yo' is a dumb bunny ;))

HA!(as Pat would say).

First off, it's time that somebody reveals yo' secret identity, so I'm gonna "bust your hide!... I'm gonna lay it all out, for the world to see. Most of you guys don't know "JR" from a rock (cuz he sorta looks like one ;)... some of you guyz know he works for H-S Precision.

Now here's the real skinny on that rascal!

"JR" is the barrel maker for H-S Precision... now you might think "So friggin WHAT!"... the guy down the street makes barrels too... BIG DEAL.

Well... it is a BIG DEAL because... H-S Precision is one of ONLY TWO companies (none of you guyz ever heard of the other company) that are certified to make SAAMI Test barrels, and what are called "Universal Receivers"... these big $25,000 guns and fast swap pressure/standards test barrels that test the ammo you guyz shoot, are the cream of the gun industry!!!

That's it... nobody else can make these puppies, and "JR" makes the barrels.

So inspite of rumors that he's funny looking, and inspite of the fact that he's the only guy in history to ask my Ugly fat sister out on a SECOND date... if he talks barrels, yo' dumb ass better listen... hard!

OK... now to business!

> 'Lito, lito, lito:

>"Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet?? Hmmmm.... So you are saying a 1/12" twist in one barrel may not equal the RPM's in another 1/12" twist barrel at the same velocity? It will not spin the same 1 revolution per 12 inches of travel for (x) distance? Or are you saying that a bullet may not break as freely as one barrel to the next due to the land structure?"<

Nope... if you shoot a bullet at 3000fps from 100 barrels with a 12" twist, they will all have the same spin-rate as they leave.

>"Dude, or undude, once it leaves the muzzle at (x) velocity, if it breaks clean from the crown, the rate of deceleration of gyration should be constant, depending on the bullet. It's like comets and shit, isn't it??"<

Comets??? You mean the sink cleaner, or those dumb stars that fly tailways backward? ;)

Bullets will decelerate from their forward motion at the same speed (or "un-speed")... but their loss in rotational velocity will vary with the surface finish or texture, and that is formed by the rifling.

Think of those tyre balancing machines at the tyre store... take two of them, and put a racing slick on one, and a "Monster Mudder" on the other... both the same weight, and size. Then spin them up to 600 rpm, and kill the power. The surface air restance of the slick is low, and it will decelerate slower (or spin longer) than the "Monster Mudder", who's big, chunky tread will cause a lot of air drag.

Now take this picture, and think base balls... the kind of surface a base ball has (in terms of roughness) will determine the amount of change of course the ball will take on a curve ball pitch. When the curve ball got popular in base ball, the association had to standarize the ball surface in order to make it fair, and an umpire will pull a ball from the game, if the surface gets roughed up, because it will curve more with a rougher surface...

Now take this picture, and think boolets... when it is shot out of a barrel, the air over the surfaces is the same on all sides, but as gravity starts to take effect, and it starts to drop, there is an additional airflow coming from under the bullet, and this air flow now gets skewed more to one side of the bullet because of the bullets rotation, and causes it to slowly start to drift to the other side of it's normal path... just like the air hitting a curve ball (or sliced tennis ball) will cause it to drift.

So... the rougher the bullets rifling, the more the drift... this is a bit of counting angels on the head of a MatchKing, cuz "Spin drift" is a very minor effect at the ranges that we shoot, and the difference in the amount of drift between a bullet with 0.002" groves, and one with 0.003", is not 50%... it's a tiny bit, because of what's called the "laminar effect" (which is a four page write in itself). The difference in drift between the two depths of rifling might be 10% of the total drift, which itself is very small... it might be able to be measured on the bigger guns like the .338 Lap, or the 50BMG at ranges of 1,500yds or more. And, except on perfectally windless days, these things are lost in the "noise" of the real enemies of longrange shooting... wind, velocity "ES", and ranging errors.

>" HAHAH... Devil's advocate, his right hand man am I....."<

You damn betcha!! You're a booger too!!

>"You should be able to compute the approximate RPM's necessary to stabilize a bullet. This could be connotated into an 'angular' formula, which would be quite broad, but nonetheless accurate and not precise. If the thing is spinning, whether at 50K Rpm or 40K Rpm, results are the same?? NO! Perhaps at a certain range."<

The computations are sketchy at best... the "Greenhill" formula, which is standard fair, was written back in the 1870's, and was derrived from solid lead round nosed bullets, with the center of gravity in the "middle" of the bullet, that were 2 or 2.5 diameters long, that were shot at below the speed of sound... and everybody thinks Greenhill was written by GOD! This is the "best we've got?... it's junk math for the bullets we've got now.

We now shoot pointy bullets that can be 6 or 7 dimeters long, at 3 to 4 times the speed of sound, and that are (for the longrange shooter), TAIL HEAVY, and ballistally unstable by design!

If the bullet is launched at a rotational speed that is sufficent to get it on track and keep it from tumbling, and the 200 yd groups are great... suppose the rotational speed drops below that which is required for stablilty at 800 yds... it then starts to tumble out of control. Take the clasic 168SMK @ 2600 load... there are guys that love this load at 1000, and others that complain that sometimes they get a sideways mark in the target... it's because the rotational stability of this load is marginal at 1000yds in a 12" twist, and the slightest perturbance (a flap of a butterfly's wing ;) will cause it to tumble... but you will NEVER hear someone with a 10" twist, making the same complaint, because for the 10" twist is rock stable at 1000yds, the threshold of marginal stability being out around 1200 to 1300yds.

The spin drift of a 10" barrel is 20% more, but is still lost in the "noise" of windage, and at that range, velocity "ES", and the resulting vertical dispersion really becomes a big problem... much bigger than spindrift.

>"I agree that the 'bullet upset' will occur with different forms of land and groove structure, which will deviate the bullet because of deformity, but not the twist rate itself."<

Keep in mind that different rifling will mark the bullets differently (and Shilen now is playing with ratchet rifling Hmmm)... if all groves and lands are uniform, then there is no "deformity"... it is "uniformity". It is deformity, only if some parts are different than others... very Baaad

>"Paul, I'm pickin' yer brain cuz even though yer an old fart who lives in a dumpster to shoot cats, your constructive mind is still in fairly good shape, hahah.<

HA!... if you could see into my mind, even you would walk away totally confusified (or blushing)! Double HA!

>"By the way, we've got some big kittys closing in on the Rapid City area, in fact there was a Puma in town a few weeks ago!!! Give me a heads up and I'll line you up with an 'Executive' style dumpster ghillie.

I'm hoping to get to SoDak next year, to see you and Pat... and do some doggies... if the dogs aren't good, I'll always settle for "Cats" ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular ally or backyard Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, ...then, of course, there's the OTHER French Cat... also YUMMY!!, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 16:23:06 (ZULU)

Jefe you are correct that in EUROPE there are many places where you can shoot out to 4k. Fulda Valley and Netherlands come to my mind. I was talking about Finland which is TOTALLY different game.

Think about the following: 30% of Finland is either swamp or lakes, most bridges do not tolerate a 40 ton T-72 let alone a 60 ton M1A1 and to crown it all most of the remaining land mass is woods. I believe something like 15-20% of the land mass is fields where you could have traditional tank battles. Luckily the best places for this kind of action are nowhere near the Russian border. Besides our fields do not carry tanks most of the year as in spring and fall they are too soft and in winter they are often covered with 3-5 feet of snow that causes problems for most tanks. In winter the gorund is hard so it can support tanks better. Basically our tanks move most of the time along narrow roads in the woods where visibility is usually only a few hundred meters.

Unlike most tank tactics propose, the Finns keep their tanks mostly in the woods because it easier than to use the few open spaces taking into consideration that in a war with any neighbour we would not have air superiority. The Russians can not move their tank formations well in the woods and those you might pick up in the open. Finnish troops are almost allways in the woods until they really have to come out to fight. Our doctrine is totally different from most other countries and it is dictated by the lack of air superiority and very difficult terrain for "normal" tank battles.

I am not saying that M1A1 could not operate in Finland as it can but I am saying that they would get hit too because they could not rely on their superior 4k reach but had to rely more on tactics, fast action and superior armor. The good TI would be a good asset but not something that would by itself guarantee anything.

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 17:54:02 (ZULU)

HEXA:

Fair enuf! Funny you should mention Fulda. I was stationed about 10K west of there. Sometimes we would pass out on the train heading back from Frankfurt and fortunately, the Polezei would wake us up at the East German border.

It was a very long walk back to base in the wintertime as it was usually the last train!

Does Finland have a Mountain Infantry unit?

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 19:22:17 (ZULU)

Rumor Mill Running Rampant!

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24283

http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2001/09/01/story/0000101013

Alright you super sleuths! Get to work here! Lock and load or status quo?

Now where where did I put that dang howitzer? Bolt out and waiting for the alien invasion!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 20:30:26 (ZULU)

JR, I figured there was some one lurking around on here who worked for HS, last time I called you guys, you'll where too busy to repaint stocks, but if the rush is over I'll call again and arrange getting my stock seen to, the finnish didn't last long, the 18 months comprised of 3 weeks solid hunting in Scotland, and maybe 2 weeks here in Germany, plus maybe 45 half days on the range, the finnish started looking shabby after the second week in Scotland the stock was then 3 months old, flakes of the paint came of just rearward of the rifle action on the second or third range session, I figured maybe the paint hadn't cured correctly, The stock ( Rem 700 LA thumbhole sporter) has otherwise been great, tough as nails, just the finnish didn't last, I've repainted it 3 times with some OD enamel stuff I bought in the PX, but it looks shabby and as Im rebuilding the rifle (cos I wore the barrel out with 3500rds Hornady LM 30-06)I wanted to get the stock done properly, the only pain in the ass is the cost of the shipping $50 each way !! and if the customs get a hold of it they like to charge tax on what its worth not on what the paint job cost, no wonder I have to call collect, !! thanks for the reply, Pete L,

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 21:16:03 (ZULU)

All this talk of Tanks reminds me of the best ever 3 shot group I made, 3 into 12" at 3200m ( 120mm APFSDS) well I was impressed.

I am absolutely convinced that the best use of Scout Snipers against Armour is to give the sniper the possibility to call in either Arty, an air strike, be it fast movers of Attack helo's or your own armour to engage, some thing along the lines of, what did they call it ? Stingray? any how, when i was with 1Bn A+SH, the FOO spent 75% of his time with the Sniper teams, the rest with Reccy PL, cut out the middle man, Scout /Sniper/FOO, or are you guys in the military already doing this and I'm re-inventing the wheel, I did get the impression that the consensus of oppinion in the Brit Army was that you either had to be an officer or SAS to call in such assets, Jock squaddy wasn't trusted enough to get his grid right enough to drop bombs on things, but on the other hand, we all know the one about officers with maps !!, let the cook(Slop Jockey) call the air strike,, please !! Pete l

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 21:32:22 (ZULU)

Peter L,

Guess hunting in october is a big nono, now with another outbreak of foot and claw disease near the Scottish border??

(was starting to really look forward to it, me just gotsta shoot me one of them Bambi's at long range...)

The Winnie is performing better and better, with Lapua 170 grain lockbase bullets and 44 grain of n140 in Lapua cases with federal nr 210 primers i got the following results at 100 meters;

5 shot group1- 0.6885 inch

2- 0.5935

3- 1.1590

4- 0.6730

5- 0.3500

average speed, 2705 fps.

With 185 scenars and 42 n140, average speed 2608 fps, and at 500 meters average groupsize for 5 shot groups 6 inches, same ammo but shot with the psg made the groups a bit smaller,6 shot groups of 5 inches average with 2 six shot groups of only 2.5 inches, but i guess that was more luck than capability.

We might be conducting a "sniper" gettogether 3 weekends from now, a whole day of stalking, cams/comms, observation lanes, kims games, tips and tools trading etc etc. We got it almost straightened out with authorities, got ourselves a nice little army training ground, some 7,62 blanks, maybe some nightsights , TI's and handsfree comms from the bossman, will be a fun and interesting day, if your interested mail me or Stefan. (maybe something for master T aswell?)

Maybe cya on the bridge near Osnabruck on monday, peter, ill be on the look out for a Brit with a sniper squishgun wearing a pink ghillie...

To Mike Miller;

wandering if you received my money order for the sling yet...

To all rosterfarians,

Anyone near the State of Kentucky now of any good long ranges to shoot at? Do not mind if it is a day riding or so...really would like to do some shooting while i am over in the States in October and November, all the ranges i have found on the internet are kinda short, pistol ranges, would like to do some long range shooting since overhere in the Netherlands i'd end up shooting civilians if i shoot further than 500 meters...our little country is just that...little!

About to shoot another $60.000 dollars worth of TOW rockets in the coming week, (live is good)

Marco.

Happiness is seeing a tank go KABOEM.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
the Hague , ZH, NL - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 23:26:39 (ZULU)

Scout-snipers in the USMC often call most of the arty for the Bn. In peacetime they don't let enlisted call CAS, which is stupid IMO, since you don't magically learn it when the balloon goes up. Now this depends on the BN, and the level of trust the BC has in his snipers, but my last CAX('99) I had three batteries of 155's to play with, and probably called fifteen individual missions, and three or four series missions, most using RAP, which sucks BTW. The mortar platoon has a FO with each line company, who can call arty too. Very often the only officers involved in the arty process are the FSO's at the Bn level. The FDC I worked with was run by a Sgt. Not surprisingly, things went very well. We had an air officer with our team for the purposes of calling CAS for the training, but IRL there's no way that would happen. Each line company has an air oficer for CAS, and often they crosstrain on arty. Pretty much every infantry NCO should have a good grasp of calling mortars and arty, and at least the basics of a nine line CAS brief. Even if they just have the cheat sheet, the pilots will be able to talk them through it. With pilots, the comm procedures go out the window. They usually just want to know where to drop what, and when, and an egress heading. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 01:29:07 (ZULU)

Wes, On the 168 gr Barnes bullet, I can confirm this rummor for you, I have a case of loaded ammo and a few bags of bullets that I got from Barnes. I along with a few others were sent these bullets for testing. They are a 168 grain boattail version or their- x bullet (solid copper) . I was given the XLC (blue coated) bullets and the uncoated bullets for testing. They shot in the 3/4 to 1 MOA range in rifles of mine that normally shoot .200 to .400. Barnes was contacted by the Goverment for purchace of these due to new EPA restrictions on their ranges. if you want a couple of boxes of the ammo to mess with email me.

The text is being added to the gallery photos, on my site.

300 WSM

I have also tested all the Winchester factory offerings of the 300 WSM:

180gr Power Point SP Avg Vel 3008 Avg Accuracy 1.030"

180gr Falsafe Premuim Avg Vel 3024 Avg Accuracy .780"

150gr Bal Sivler tip Avg Vel 3415 Avg Accuracy .480"

The above is based on 10 5 shot groups with each type. I was impressed with the 150gr variety. 23 MOA to 1000 yards pretty damn flat. I am still doing alot of playing with this cartridge, I really like what the 175 grain Sierra's are doing at 3100. .300" avg at 100 yards. I need to get these loads to the 1000 yard line.

George Out

George Gardner, G.A Precision Rifles <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 04:44:57 (ZULU)

On the unconvencional urban war against tanks(This probably has only historical value now).I have a friend who escape from Hungary in 76,his father jumb out the window last time KGB knock the door few months after the Revolusion.He was about 8years old then and he told me the civilians used to lay plates on the streat upside down to look like mines.When the tanks slowed down for few seconds to get abetter look they would throw molotovs from the roof tops.Soviet response was to blow up the top floors of the buildings with total desregard for unarmed civilians.They also used the trick of sliping between 2 Rusian units in the midle of the night take few potshots at both directions and slip out leting the soldiers shoot each other

Jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
Marathon, Fl, usa - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 18:19:16 (ZULU)

I have no doubt that as I sit here at this computer, today, the technology exists to be able to search an area of flat ground, acquire by day or night (through fog and smoke) by the heat the target emits (or contrasts against), shoot a supersonic projectile from a gyro-stabilized rifled or smoothbore tube, while both the target and shooting platform are moving in excess of 75 miles per hour over rough terrain and through woods. I know it exists in the US M1A1 and M1A2 tanks, and to an extent in the 25mm Chain Gun system in the Bradley and 30mm Bushmaster in the Apache.

The electronic thought that goes through the computer includes wear of the rifling in the tube, tube droop, winds between me and target, temperature of propellant, BC and ballistics of any of at least six different types and weights of projos, drift, Coriolus effect, humidity, barometric pressure, and I'm sure a dozen other variables I've not thought of.

Someday that may (and I don't doubt will) be in a package small enough, durable enough, dependable enough, and affordable enough for an above-average IQ infantryman or commando to learn how to operate and be able to sustain at better than average hit probability.

But I can't hold one today. I'm not saying prototypes aren't available, but I must put my marbles on the side not of the nay-sayer, but of the dubious and not totally convinced.

So Dean, please don't feel pissed off that I, still at Cro-Magnon knuckle-dragging level, am not doing handstands and rushing to the credit union for a loan to buy the whole shebang you're suggesting may obsolete what I as a hobbyist am willing to invest in today. If it's the better mouse trap for killing my fellow man, believe me I will suggest to the Army we buy it immediately. But I'm still not convinced that the 25-pound AAI/HK Advanced Individual Combat Weapon is the Silver Bullet it's been promised either.

I absolutely do not trust everything that comes out of the Army's labs or the Operational Test Command. Both often produce or work on concepts just to keep engineers and scientists employed, without regard to making a foot-soldier's life easier or more effective.

Makes for interesting reading though, I must admit. How much does all this weigh? I'm interested in your first round hit records (day/night, and in winds).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 19:34:17 (ZULU)

Sinister...

Don't feel too bad. You got company. I'm with you, Dude!

Us "old" guys have to stick together againse these new fangled shooting computer thingies. If'in we don't, they will take our old fasioned M3 'scope sights away, and then what the hell will we do???

It's amazing how one guy is walking around with the toy in his pocket, that all the militaries in the world would LOVE to have, and he ain't a millionair yet.

You think we missed something here... was this announcement really a pre-release press conference... maybe Ol' Dubya Bush can now quit the anti-ballistic program, and just get some of these pocket doohickies, and mount them on old, recycled Redstone missles???

Ya' think???

I wonder if it'll work on Cats??

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:12:22 (ZULU)

Lito,I wouldnt presume to give you advice but I dont think a cats bc will get anywhere near .9oo.H ow would you launch a cat @2900 without it burning or coming apart?I think the whole thing would have to be reconfigured to use it on cats.

hehehe

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
1st day , of spring, downunder - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:30:36 (ZULU)

Gavan...

No, no, you dumb bunny...

I meant if it'll work to TARGET Cats!

I want to get one so I can compute the Corriolis effect, spin drift, terminal velocity, precession, yaw, and all that other really cool scientific stuff on a .177 cal pellet at 650 fps.

Hell man, I might be able to reach all the way to the fat lady's yard, so they wouldn't die in my grape arbor (Yuck... dead Cats really ruin the taste of the wine!)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:40:23 (ZULU)

Marco, this foot and mouth may screw us for our bambi sniper exercise, if that doesn't, the operation I need on my goddamn right foot will, lets wait and see, get your trip to the US booked, we have the rest of our lives to go Bambi'ing in scotland, I promised my son I'd take him on his first scottish hunt in April, tag along if you like, also 1st week in August is one for your diary(definalely) hey it won't run away, how about 5 days Boar hunting plus 2 days driven boar( 8th to 14th Oct) now that'll test your CQB skills, I will look out for the Cloggy convoy tommorow, I'm off to the UK tommorow or tuesday, want to attend my uncles funeral, I'll be back on Friday, Aboput this sniper w/end, aren't I too old and crippled for that?? how do I explane 3 weeks scotland,and a w/end in Holland, she will not believe that the training area isn't in the centre of Amsterdam !!

Did you get your winnie trigger sorted? and have you had any more thoughts on who will build your 6.5 ?? sory abouit long winded post, I seem to have miss laid your email address on this computer,, enjoy your excersise in BB, do you know Trauen camp, we always used that as a base, I only saw the camp on the last day for a shower, spent some time in Hohne though, I used to repair the GTS (gunnery training simulators) for the Armoured regt's up there, 'till they sold the Challenger 1 to the Jordanians for 1GBP each, can you belive it, at that price I would have bought 5, !! regards.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 22:03:46 (ZULU)

Gents,

Been in the shop all day and at the feet of the master.

FINALLY finished correcting a small problem with my inletting on my Mexican Mauser custom project. Took it to Steve Nelson and he proclaimed it "ready to proceed" and shape. To celebrate, we cut the stock to the correct length of pull and squared it. It even looks like a real walnut stock now. Final shaping, finishing, and checkering. Say another 100 man hours of labor and it'll be ready. To bad I won't have it ready for deer season, but there's next year. Will have to use my pre-64 Winchester M70 Featherweight in .308. Life is just to rough...;-)

Have Steve to the point were he is ready to build a tactical rifle. Now THAT IS progress!

Got to handle and see the 2002 American Custom Guncrafters Guild raffle rifle. Gent's you GOTTA get in on this. Tickets are $20.00 each and they only sell 2,000 of them...so chances are good. Here's waht you get: Custom Mauser 404 Jeffery stopping rifle/ gold inlay and engraved, high grade english walnut stock. An absolutely beautiful piece! Also, a custom fitted Marvin Huey case ($4,500. value), and a damascas custom made high grade hunting knife and sheath with fancy file work and Ivory handles ($1,800. value). Total Value is $19,000.00! GET A TICKET!

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 23:38:36 (ZULU)

Happy birfday to me, yadda yadda yadda. Turned 47 this morning, figures it would be raining. Getting old ain't all it's cracked up to be. Stuff that used to hurt for a day now hurts for a week. I thought we were supposed to age like fine wine, so far it's like MD20/20!

Not aging with grace, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 23:45:02 (ZULU)

'Lito,

A George Gardner built, 1-11 twist, Rem 700 action, Leupold glassed (ballistically indexed) feline launcher (powered of course by VarGet). Gotta love it!

I can just see Sylvester going trans-sonic at 1,100 yards!

ROTFLMAO.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 02:18:48 (ZULU)

Jefe

As the Ice time 10000 years ago flattened Finland totally we do not have any real mountains and threfore no mountain troops either. Instead we have over 100000 quite shallow lakes, swamps etc.

We do have some hills in Lappland that for some might be mountains but they are only max 1300 m high (4300 ft) and they are really smooth. You do not need any climbing equipment to conquer them. Actually practicing mountain climbing in Finland is VERY hard to do as we do not really have any real mountains.

If you meant with mountain troops soldiers who can fight in harsh winter in difficult terrain then yes we have them. Some say we have 700000 of them (our reserve) but seriously said we do have enough properly trained reserve soldiers to fight in Lappland at any time of the year.

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 02:53:16 (ZULU)

While loading for the WinMag today I noticed that runout in about every 4th or 5th case jumped from just under .002 before bullet seating, to as high as .007 after. Using Forster benchrest die. Most Federal Match I have checked runs around .002. Is this much ado about nothing and is brass, (same lot of once fired RP), die, or myself most likely culprit?....Me thinks all of this technical shit posted lately is makin' my ass too tight....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:18:05 (ZULU)

Howdy folks!

'Lito, Mike:

Thanks for the response, eh. I wanted to use this forum instead of e-mail to get the info out there, and I know there are plenty of knowledgeable folks itchin' to answer such queries. These are questions that were asked hundreds of years ago, yet there is little that a guy will find at the local library about the subject.

All those questions were baited, and youse guys took the hook. Thanks!!!! I am humbled by your vast knowledge... haha!

...speaking of humbled,

'Lito, you old fart!

I feel like the sniper with the Starlite scope who has just came across the enemy's infrared!! Scope out and duck for cover!!!! hahah

My cover's blown, ha!

Guys, the only 'rock' you'll see in my department is the one I hide behind to catch a few zzzz's between rifling 50 cal's!

Yep guys, I make somewhere around 90% of the barrels that test the ammunition youse guys use in yer rifles and shotguns and pistoles. Probably about all of the 50 caliber barrels used in the military proving grounds. The info you see in a lot of the reloading manuals or on the back of the box most likely came from a barrel by yours truly. And I have been making a lot of 'em lately.

lito, today's use of the greenhill is sketchy at best, I agree, and I use a similar formula which pertains to todays bullets, as we generally use an ogive of 6-8 calibers for 'match' bullets, and still takes the general approach of the length of bullet but I also add the center of mass as a factor into the stability. A guy also has to remember that they used 'lead' bullets for greenhill, which has a different specific gravity than today's jacketed bullets, and has to be computed into the equation. A bullet of different material will not fly the same.

You did well sir!! The flats and grooves initiated by the rifling to get it to spin actually inhibit the RPM's differently from barrel to barrel due to the surface finish left on the bullet AND the depth of the cut. There is a range of RPM's you want to keep the nose up, but it is very broad. The ONLY reason I am against faster twist barrels is stripping the jacket, which will not be the case with a 10" twist rate in a .308. I guess one other reason would be if you used such an excessive twist at a high velocity without stripping the bullet, the bullet would tend to yaw more in the direction of the spin. And depending on the center of gravity of that bullet you may experience a 'rise' that you would not have expected. I worried about this with the 1/6" twist rate Berger specified for a 17 Remington blank I made 2 years ago.

Yer sis ain't too bad, 'lito, just tell her to shave the 5:00 shadow, and I'll stop taking her out to dinner at the Mc'D's drive thru. Hah! (doubleHA!)

One more thing, and Pat may not be privvy to this, not sure, but I do know a few people on the Reservation with a wild dog problem, have remedied a few packs on occasion. You get about every size of target, from German Shepherd size to poodle. Good antelope practice, hah!

Peter Lincoln:

I hope I didn't come across as 'bustin' yer balls, I just see too many manufacturers get the raw end of the schtik on this site when if the customer would speak with the company in question, the problem would be resolved.

I know you are on the other end of the world, and now youse guys have to figure out what your money is actually worth, damned socialist Euro's, hahah, so I tell you what. E-mail me your concerns, with your address and telephone #, I will see what I can do for you. I can probably get one of our representatives to call you on our dime, deal?? I honestly give a shit about how our customers are treated. (pardon the vulgarity, Ken)

later folks

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:32:34 (ZULU)

Sinister:

I think we'd have to go with a slower twist for the 'cat launcher', we don't want to skin the cat before he leaves the barrel, doesn't fly as accurately. Minimum of 1/60". Otherwise you'll be cleanin' catgut, pullin' violin strings out yo barrel.

I don't know if any of youse have seen 8 gauge industrial guns, but they have a 'muffler' on the end which is about 4-5" diameter steel tubing. I think a guy could drill holes in the outside, in a twist helix, like paintball barrels, and use perhaps an oxy/acetylene boost. Or maybe just compressed oxy. stuff the kitty down the pipe, tamp down with a wad of Bounty, fill the chamber with gas and ignite!! A cat projectile would require at least 5 feet of barrel for any accuracy.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:49:43 (ZULU)

JR...

Speakin' of dog problems (not PD's)... I lived in Pennsylvinia in the 70s, near a resort area. Every year, the New Yawkers would rent cabins for the summer, and get their kids a "Puppy" to keep them company. Come Labor day, they'd load everything up for the trip back to the city... except for the dog, which they left on the side of the road.

By mid October, the dogs had packed up, and were damn wild (and mean)... and everybody was encouraged to SOS (Shoot On Sight), as they would attack little kids.

I would hunt them with a few friends, and I carried a full stock, spoon handled .270 Mauser, loaded with Sierra 90gr hollow points, at 3,600fps... damn bullets would nearly cut a 25 pound dog in half.

You got bad dogs on the reservation??? I'll bring the .270 Mauser (still got it :).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 04:13:40 (ZULU)

A couple of more questions:

1) Have any of you tried the Austrian Hertenburger (sp?) ammo? How is it?

2) Do any of you know about the National Guard's Sniper program? Where could I find out more about it?

Thanks.

Magnus

Magnus <clone@asu.edu>
Tempe, Arizona, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 05:11:26 (ZULU)

'Lito

>Now take this picture, and think base balls... the kind of surface a base ball has (in terms of roughness) will determine the amount of change of course the ball will take on a curve ball pitch. When the curve ball got popular in base ball, the association had to standarize the ball surface in order to make it fair, and an umpire will pull a ball from the game, if the surface gets roughed up, because it will curve more with a rougher surface...<

Guess what? You just described the... <GASP> MAGNUS EFFECT!!

hehehehe

But it is still a great write-up :-)

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 07:12:22 (ZULU)

Ok Lito,now I get the picture,for a while I had an image of a big guy cackling fienishly as he snap froze a cat into an aerodynamic posture and stuffed it into a pvc orange gun charged with acetylene or perhaps some of yer sisters hairspray and launchin it at the fat ladys roof only to have the damn cori wtf effect cause the cat to land in a good neighbors yard:)

Wonder if I could compute the info and dail it into my eye to hit bird at 200m with my sling shot.

Nah... I think Ill just build a belt fed bb gun:)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
bourbon & bed time, downunder, . - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 08:02:53 (ZULU)

JR thanks for taking a personal interest, I will mail you, didn't mean to knock HS products, the stock is bullet proof, any equipment I own gets a rough ride, I wasn't bothered about a bit of flakey paint and a rubbed off finnish, but as I'm rebuilding the rifle; I want it to look pretty, at least for a couple of weeks !!

Hirtenberger ammunition, its quite popular in Germany, I have only used the hunting stuff, but it seems to be accurate,(if the rifle likes it) consistent, I would put it on a level with Norma and Lapua, I am trying to get my hands on some 308 sub sonic fron Hirtenbereger, its proving difficult, regards to all, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 11:58:56 (ZULU)

JIM/HISTORICAL VALUE:

Interesting story Jim, but I think you are selling its value a bit short. Rather than just being of historical value, your story illustrates the concept of deception and ambush, which will never go out of style, especially for snipers. That is the way snipers are supposed to work.

Alot of tactics from WWII or earlier really havent changed that much.

Thanks for a good piece of history.

MOUNTAINS (or lack thereof):

Thank you for that piece of info. For some reason, I had picturued your country as mountainous.

(you still make great vodka regardless!)

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 12:01:05 (ZULU)

Marius...

Well, yeah... but I never explain somfin by throwing out a name or a word.

"Why do you have to step on the gas when going around a fast curve, instead of stepping on the breaks?"

"Because of the Montgolfier effect!".

... that doesn't answer or 'splain anything. It just winds up having guys throw around words that sound impressive, but that they don't understand.

Got into one here on SC with someone that you all know, about whether bullets fall point down like an arrow (they DON'T), or they fall to the ground with their axis still pointing at the same angle that they had when were fired upwards from the barrel (they DO)... and he threw words around that he didn't understand, trying to get ground... when I gave him a three page 'splaination on what was happining, he finely understood it.

Anyway... what else am I going to write about... I can't write about cams anymore, and now I can't write about MK4 rings and MK4 bases either... my world is getting smaller and smaller...

... I'm gonna go shoot some Cats!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 12:55:23 (ZULU)

Hexa,

Nice description of your country, But you forgot the Babes!!!!!

JR,

Bounty Wadding??

A Horrible Fire risk on the Great Plains? (insert Whine & trembling handwringing here).

What is needed for this project is a $100,000,000 research grant from Uncle Sugar.

Title: "Katzenboomer 2002 - Research Viability of Organic Anti-Armour Projectile & Interdiction" (Alternate ready materials using a porcine projectile in certain unfriendly areas of the middle east.)

Some sort of non-ecologocal damaging wadding along the lines of a oversized shotgun wad or SABOT, possibly either coated or impregnated with Barnes proprietary coating, would be a viable start.

Naturally, Varget would be a good start for propellant, but I can see a air fuel propellant becoming the wave of the future.

Have a nice end to your Holiday weekend folks.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 13:08:50 (ZULU)

Gav and Lito, you guys were kidding?

Man that tabby's going to have the butt at me when I finally let him outta the tumbler (three hours with a pound of BBs and a tablespoonful of moly...)

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:13:33 (ZULU)

Sinister...

If you think the cat is gonna be pissed off, just wait 'til Mary puts her favorite white dress in the drier, with all that moly...

... then you're REALLY gonna see the definition of "PISSED OFF!"

You got a cot in the basement???

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:44:22 (ZULU)

JR: "I guess one other reason would be if you used such an excessive twist at a high velocity without stripping the bullet..."

I would imagine that there is also a RPM limit after the bullet leaves the pipe. Spin too fast, and it'll deform - grow fat in the middle, or shed the jacket altogether like retreads flying off a semi tire. Copper and lead aren't the strongest of metals. BTW, the centrifugal force created by the Earth's rotation actually deforms Earth, making it wider at the equator than it is tall from pole to pole by about 26 miles.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:57:38 (ZULU)

Michael...

>"Spin too fast, and it'll deform - grow fat in the middle, or shed the jacket altogether like retreads flying off a semi tire."

What actually happens, is the jacket splits along the weak points made by the cuts on the jacket walls by the rifling... this is easy to see.

Shoot a Hornady "SX" out of a 9" or 7" twist barrel, with ANY .22 centerfire, and you will see a quick streak of "smoke" going out to the target. People used to think this was lead melting off the nose of the bullet (another of the famous wives tails)... but it was the jacket splitting along the rifling marks, because the SX series bullets used jackets that were 0.009" thick, whereas the normal jacket thickness for .22 centerfire jackets is 0.018".

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 15:10:34 (ZULU)

http://www.alexweb.net/unertl/for_sale.htm

This site says they have a real USMC Unertl for sale.

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 15:55:28 (ZULU)

SSG...

This is the long WWII Unertl with external adjustable mounts, that went on the '03A4 Springfields, and later, on the Winchester Heavy Barreled sniper rigs used in early Viet Nam... not the current USMC Unertl.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:01:37 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito. Did he say by chance how much he was asking. I have an old '03a4 at the smith right now. Might try to rig it up...

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:08:17 (ZULU)

SSG...

No he didn't... you gotta ask.

I've seen these on eBay, and they go for from $1,800 to $2,300... only because of the "USMC" stamp on the side.

These are standard Unertl 1.25", 8x target scopes, and you can find a 1.25" Unertl (of any power) on eBay or elsewere for around $300 to $400 in CREAM PUFF condx... if you can live without the "USMC" stamp!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:39:35 (ZULU)

Can anybody provide me with info on chrome lined barrels VS standard cm barrels.I am contemplating purchasing either a FN police sniper(308) or a Rem.700 pss(308)What can I expect for accuracy from both rifles given the exact same conditions.I know that the FN will be easier to clean and it will have a longer barrel life(due to chromed barrel) but what else can I expect from these rifles.Does anyone have any experience with these rifles.Which would be the most accurate.Thanks Semper Fidelis

Fred Flammini <FredF225@Hotmail.com>
Brockton, MA, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 17:27:09 (ZULU)

Lito

I dont know any fancy words but if i remember my highschool physiks

the way objects fall has to do with where the center of gravity is?On arows is forward of midpoint,bullets rear of midpoint?Also there is the Law about objects thrown at a direction wana keep going the same direction.You turn the wheels left the car still wana go staight,you hit the throtle the rear wheels spin faster than the frond and move to the right(wana go straihgt) and they point the car to the left,If you hit the brakes you will end up in the ditch.The problem with that is your survival instict tells you to do the oposite of what you must do.On amotorcircle is trickier if you wana go left you have to turn(inicialy)right.Also if you already lean in a turn and hit the frond brakes the bike is not gona fall its gona come up.Same laws of physics.

Did ipass the exam?

how you guys check the spelling on the posts??

Jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
marathon, fl, usa - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 18:31:54 (ZULU)

Michael,

There is a link to Varmint Al's webpage in the hot links section here. He does a pretty interesting analysis of the stresses that bullets are subjected to at various twist rates and muzzle velocities. It makes me think that as muzzle velocities go up, twist rates can slow down. I suspect that this has something to do with Sierra's recommendation of a 1 in 13" twist for the .30 cal 155 Palma bullet, since most of the palma guys are pushing these around 3000 fps out of 30-32" barrels, but that's only my opinion, for what its worth.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:11:04 (ZULU)

Hey JR, I treid to mail you, but it came back, can you try to mail me please so I can reply.

I shot my heym barreled remmy 700 today, using Hornady 168gr bthp match fodder , what a performer, happiness is one ragged hole.

Can any of you guys tell me how much you would pay for a box of this Hornady 168 gr stuff in the US, apparently it costs $34 ( 20 rds) a box here, how does that compare.. thanks Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:32:40 (ZULU)

Marathon Jim...

"Did ipass the exam?"

NOPE!

"how you guys check the spelling on the posts??"

MARIUS... Spell checker needed here ;)

Pat T...

The reason that the 155 Palma can use a 13" twist, is because it is shorter than the 168s.

But you're also correct... bullets that are marginal at 2500fps, will be stable at 3000.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:34:35 (ZULU)

Electronic Gizzies...

Not in the know, but wont they all go belly up when EMPs are used? Heck, anyone with a radioshack nearby can make em, not to mention BIG linear amp with direction sending ant. Do they make perfect sheilding?

I like my mil dots and they like me.

Painting Sticks:

Got the final story into M for review. It's basic, and all are welcome to add to it.

just enjoying my extra day off and remembering those that went before me to allow me what I have today...buk

buk <bukowski@ipa.net>
AbeautifulDayIn, Arkansas, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 22:01:42 (ZULU)

Ha!

Ok PeteR, I concede that Bounty may not work out well. Never mind my second choice. Cat-sabot?? Ever see those wax-dippers they have in machine shops to protect the tooling? That might be kinda mean, it's sorta hot. A Meowser gun.

Pat T:

If you subscribe to the higher velocity/slower twist rate, then you would be agreeing that RPM's coincide with bullet stability. Anyway, 155's are short and fat, hence the 13 twist. Would still go with a minimum of 12 if I had a choice.

In the olden days, ha, most of the 'magnums' were chambered with slower twist barrels. Check out the back of an old Speer book, all the Weatherby's used slower twist barrels than their 'non-magnum' counterparts. I've seen 300 WBy's issued with 14 twist barrels. BUT, a lot of their bullets were shorter and more blunt than we use today. Even so, many of the manufacturers based their twist rates on existing twist rates with muzzle velocity in mind.

CatShooter:

I do have one question I can't seem to answer. Why would the Mauser barrels use such deep grooves, and continue to do so, and maintain fairly good accuracy. 6.5 Swede, 7 mouser, both run groove depths around .001" over normal 6.5's and 7mm's, yet stay fairly close on bore diameters. Is this for, hah, lastability?? Do they run different diameter bullets across the pond? Damned socialist Euro's.....

Back to the grind tomorrow, folks. Hmmmph.....

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 22:37:34 (ZULU)

JR...

I donno, but them Mouse riffles sure shoot well.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 23:01:58 (ZULU)

Years ago, a tactical scope called an ART IV was available, I think from Springfield. It seemed to me to be the ultimate tactical scope, at least in concept (I've never seen one). As I recall, this scope linked the variable power adjustment with a BDC, thus alleviating the shooter from range estimation. If I understand the Mildot system correctly, the shooter is still required to perform a calculation in the field to estimate range.

Does anyone have any experience with the ART IV? There was obviously something less than desirable about this scope or it would still be available. Thanks in advance.

Tom Nordberg <tnord@qwest.net>
Boise, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:02:34 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with the ART IV? There was obviously something less than desirable about this scope or it would still be available. Thanks in advance.

Tom Nordberg <tnord@qwest.net>
Boise, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:04:40 (ZULU)

Tom Nordberg...

The scope you are refering to is the "Leatherwood" ART (Automatic Ranging Telescope)...

It was based on the Redfield 3x9 scope. They put a cammed ring around the zoom ring, and this cam rode on a mount that was pivoted in front, so when the cam was turned, the back of the scope was lifted up.

They were still made up to a few years ago (somewhere??), and show up on eBay, and SGN from time to time, and cost about $300 to $400-ish bucks when new...

I'll tell you this, and every shooter that has used one will back me up on it... it is a grand, spanking POS!

The mount was very fragile, the reference was a vertical space that is 18" high (very hard to find an 18" high target except a deer's chest), and the cam was awkward to use in the shooting position.

There are a dozen scopes that are more betterer...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:45:39 (ZULU)

Cat Shooter (Lito) - Agree 100% with your assessment of the POS ART I, II IV, or anyother incarnation of that crap. Used them with great difficulty for too many years. One thing, not to give you much trouble but I hardly ever catch you in an error!!!

The ART I measured 30 inches from top stadia to bottom and 15 inches from top or bottom stadia to reticule center. That was the distance of top of head to belt line. The 18 inches you refer to was the Redfield 3x9 that was originally used on the Rem 700 Sniper from the late 60s to early 70s, I used them too. They worked better than the ARTs and there were really a surprising number of things you could use to get the 18 inches. The two lines were high in the field of view, measured form head to "nipple line" and a paddle came out and gave your range from 100 to 600. You then had to hold over or under according to the range as you zeroed your scope at 500 meters or yards. The holds were waist for 100 and 400, groin for 200 and 300, and top of head for 600. While it was a center punch for 500. :-)

The ART II/ IV had a heavy bar for the reticule at the left right and bottom. This heavy bar was equal to 1 meter, top of head to groin. When cammed correctly the shooter was supposed to cam, center cross hairs, hold for wind, fire. None of these scopes allowed for easy manipulation of the windage knob, thus holds were mandantory, which they still are under normal combat conditions.

DAAAAMMMMM, caught him in a goof!!!!!

Made my day! I can go to bed happy. I am going to really have fun with my students tomorrow!

Hold Hard Guys.

Rick Smiling for awhile!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 01:21:39 (ZULU)

Jeez rick-ster...

you never cut me no rhythm...

You're right on the early ones (you're older than me HA!, and I'm older than rocks... so you're in real trouble! Double HA!).

The only one I actually saw enuff to play with, was one of the ones that came back about 10 years ago, when Leatherwood "re-organised", and was trying to come back (to what???), and they were making them out of current production Redfield 3x9... (which were the basis of the early ones, without the ranging bar).

'lito

Going to the range tomorrow... five new sticks to shoot

:)))))))))))))))

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 02:10:18 (ZULU)

I'm packin' up the Jungle Truck so I can get out of here early... and I'll leave youz bumbs with this thought from a conversation I had today with a fellow Rosterfairian...

"There are many things we remember in life... our "first time" with a girl, our first job...

... but try this.

There was a day, long ago, when we had a perfect day... the weather was about 70 degrees out, and the humididy was maybe 40%... I got to sit under a big tree on a hill, with a brown bag lunch, and a big cooler of lemonaid, and a good friend. We had a couple of 15 pound varmint riffles, and sat talking, laughing, and overlooking 10 acres of fresh cut alfalfa...

... it don't get much better than that!

nite, nite...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:05:43 (ZULU)

Gents'

Lito's just trying to make us all jealous with that "lunch, lemonade(Lynchburg?), 15 Varmint Rifle, good friend, and fresh cut alfalfa" thing.

Try my day today: Up at 0500. Cup of fresh coffee, hunting partner arrives to go scouting for deer season at 0545. 0600 arrive jumping off point. One mile later drop into an area we think has game, but no SANE person would go...we did(that should remove all doubt). Once we worked our way into the bottoms we found (in a 1 mile stretch)...fresh bull elk sign, blacktail deer "highways", three elk wallows, fresh bear tracks/sign, jumped 10 mallards off a little marshy depression. Went to were it opened up and found a proper spot were we had 300 degree visibility on the high ground and could shoot out to 350 yards or so...we has found our hunting "Mecca" for the season. God help us if we shoot anything in there 'cuz it's gonna have to come out of the bottoms and back to the truck on our back...about two miles.

Saw two ruffed grouse on the way back to the truck.

All of this only four miles from my back porch in the beautiful coast mountains of Oregon. The 600 yard range is only six miles the other way...:-)

Plus home fried chicken, mashed potatoes/gravey, and ears of corn for dinner.

'Lito, and you think YOU had a good day.

Please try not to hate me...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, Oregon, by gawd!, U.S. of A - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:29:14 (ZULU)

Geez Wes,

You weren't north of Reedsport toward Loon Lake were ya?

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:40:48 (ZULU)

Jr -

I don't know about the 7mm's, but I seem to recall reading somewhere years ago that the european 6.5 bullets measured .266 vs. .264 for american made 6.5's. I just miked some WWII 6.5 Carcano at .266, and some 20 year old Norma 6.5 Carcano at .264. I have some 108 gr 6.5 Lapua Scenars that I bought to try in the .260 that just miked .264, so maybe there is something to the story.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:47:09 (ZULU)

Make that .266 vs. .264

Pat T

who needs to learn to proof read

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:49:17 (ZULU)

Doggone Marius -

That edit post thingie works pretty slick. Good work on the site. Thanks.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:54:17 (ZULU)

Damn, but some of you boys are smart. You mean to tell me my bullet's been doin' ALL THAT all these years and I didn't even know ? And I thought B.R.A.S.S. covered it all. Sniper my ass.

LITO: How's the weather your way. Rainin' like hell here in S.E. TX for two weeks. Enough is enough. Fixin' to start buildin' me an ark.

Hope ya'll had a good weekend.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 13:54:32 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave, have to agree with you on the fancy electronics. I spend my days surrounded by multi million dollars systems that always fail when you need them. I see a huge hill you carry all this majic up and when you get there it dies, or you do on the trek. I like the simple approach to shooting. Most the really good opperational snipers I know say just close the distance and shoot it. Shooting past 1000 yards starts to take on a whole new aspect and I wonder if many of the things we are attempting would not be better served by crew served weapons?

Pablito, do you Molly Coat the Cats?

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 15:51:33 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs...

Just catching up on the roster and noticed some of the comments on electronics. I was talking to one of the Special Forces guys at the shoot in Wyoming and he said something that I thought would probably fit here. The cry of the old Army was, "We need more ammo, bring ammo". The cry of the new Army is, "We need more batteries, bring batteries"!!

I have to agree with Dave also, you take all the fancy stuff away or it breaks down, without good shooting skills and you have nothing. However if you have someone with the skill to call their own wind and data you still have a very dangrous weapon out there.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 16:43:29 (ZULU)

premise.

The single most decisive factor in winning life and death "games" is having the right resources (by resources, I mean people) at the right place at the right time...

The individual tactics employed by a sniper vs an armored unit seem inconsequential when you consider that the sniper could and...in my opinion, should, be a key player in the fine maneuver of resources to point on an enemy...

follow-on comments/questions.

-How is this skill (I'll go so far as to call it an "art") trained in sniper programs in place today?

-wargaming is an effective tool for training this skill...so long as the board is maintained by an judge who seeks to eliminate "flaws" inherent in every game, which will be exploited to "win" even if the consequence is a non-realistic encounter.

-the opportunity to exercise and refine this skill... with real lives on the line exists in many communities (in the US) in the form of a volunteer emergency service...this opportunity is almost never exploited by the sharpest minds with the most to gain from the experience....

challenge.

I challenge you.... either accept what I have to say and improve yourself by exploiting the learning opportunities I have identified....

prove me wrong

fail to grow

also- the offer stands...any medical situation... I will attempt to answer with the correct approach and treatment. Email if you prefer, I like the challenge....

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 18:19:55 (ZULU)

Guys, over the years I have seen and tried all types of gadgets, gizmos and what nots. Electronic and otherwise. I have a trunk full of ghillies, and all manner of crap from tree steps to wire cutters that I MAY EVENTUALLY need on a callout. More and more, I rely on a well built rifle, good clothing and a small pack that will accomodate a camelback. I can go for days with that cut down kit. Two electric items that are indispensable is communications equipment/flashlights and batteries for same. The rest is just stuff you have to pack. If you have to run or displace with all that crap, you look and sound like Fred Sanford's junk truck going down the road with crap spilling out every damn where. K.I.S.S.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 18:29:31 (ZULU)

Ref: Equipment Dichotomy

either: "Beware the man who owns only one rifle......."

or: "Tiger Woods doesn't play with just one club....."

either: "Rely on only time proven gear...."

or: "Exploit emerging technology as a force multiplier...."

either: "Travel light and freeze at night...."

or: "Better to have it and not need it than...."

I could go on but you get the drift.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 19:33:16 (ZULU)

ANDY'S DAD: What all do you carry when you deploy (average, everyday deployment) that will accomodate your needs as a sniper most of the time ?

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 19:41:28 (ZULU)

Hey guys, want to reload some 300 ultra mag, but the trimmer i currently use (forester..standard size) is more of a pain b/c of the length of the cases you/i have to take the end off and insert the case screw it back on and then start trimming this not only hurts consistency but is a real pain the posterior when it comes time to trim a lot of cases. Soooooo any suggestions on a longer trimmer or better way to go about this. thanx,marc

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
where's winter, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:01:42 (ZULU)

I know many of you are shooting the Black Hills ammo. Question is from a 26" barrel,using the 175's, what kind of fps are you getting over the chrony?? Just chrony'd some with an average of 2577fps for 10 rounds. This sure seems slow but?????

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:10:48 (ZULU)

Forester Trimmer Issue:

If you are unscrewing the case holder collet of the trimmer to fit the longer case of an Ultra Mag and simply screwing it back in with the case in place it won't affect the trim accuracy. The collet seats against the inside of the holder and that is not changing so case lengths will be the same.

Forester does sell longer bases for the trimmer. It would be a simple matter of mounting your existing hardware to the longer base.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:27:21 (ZULU)

JIM MITCHELL:

1. How do snipers train and prepare. Read the "Sniper FTX Summary

listed in the training section. That gives the absolute bare

bones of it and it is far more complex.

As far as the armor issue, check the Field Manual if you have

any doubts about the effectiveness of sniper employment doctrine

on this issue. The Army needs to work on training its officer

corp on employment of supporting arms better, but snipers are

becoming more and more accepted as an asset and supporting

element.

I think the Marines are about 10 years ahead of us in sniping

and I base that on the fact they had an FM and formal School well

ahead of the Army and have traditionally valued marksmanship

skills in all their men. The Army should really adopt more of

the USMC standards as a whole, particullary since it has gotten

smaller. Having said that, I was in very good units and have a

very good experience and high degree of respect for the majority

of my leaders while I was in. (Except in a mech unit in Germany,

where the majority of the unit should have been summarily

executed).

2. Medical training available in local communities. Yep, sure is,

and the military puts doctors in inner cities to help out and

get hands on training for gunshot wounds etc.

Also, the Army has a 10 day course, called the "Combat Lifesaver

Course." This covers a number of general first aid tasks

ranging from evaluating a casualty and treating them, to triage

and IV therapy. The goal of this course is to have at least

2 CLSs per squad (about 10 guys) to help the medic out (1 medic

per 30 men roughly). The CLSs take care of the initial lifesaving

steps (including sucking chest woulds, etc., not just real basic

stuff), transport the WIA to a Casualty Collection Point, assist

triage and follow up and MEDEVAC. IVs are an important part,

since due to the nature of the mission, their are big issues with

Hypovolemic and septic shock which go along with combat wounds.

They also help out with heat casualties and hangovers.

Bearing that in mind, re-read the FTX Summary. The final exam for

this course (Run by the Battalion Surgeon, PA and Medics) is

a combat patrol where several members are given fake wounds of

varying types under their uniforms. The patrol eventually makes

contact and while the mock battle goes on (squad or platoon size)

and they DO try to overun your position etc., the med rep signals

someone with a wound to drop and the student is called to treat

them and graded by very specific standards.

If the OPFOR is doing well, then there are more casualties for

the student to deal with, even to the point where they are

overwhelmed by numbers. Then they get graded on triage and

treatment.

It is an excellent program.

3. Yes Virginia, I am a bandwidth hog!

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:00:51 (ZULU)

WARGAMING:

Jim, I think you are confused about what the term means (in the military anyways).

Wargaming is not a force on force excercise. That is called an FTX or other names.

Wargaming simply means when during the planning process, you develop possible courses of action to accomplish the mission. Then you either place yourself in the enemies shoes and guess at his most likely moves and adjust your plan accordingly. OR, you have another person take the enemy side and play devils advocate.

So there are no nuetral judges. There is the leader of the mission and it is his call and his responsibility at the end of the day.

As far as FTXs, there are neutral judges. They are called MILES systems and are similar to laser tag. While they have their shortcomings (leaves stop lasers) there are a number of trained Öbserver/Controllers who move with each element and make necessary adjustments. For example, if a unit is spotted by the OPFOR and they call in a Fire Mission on the radio, the OC will throw some artillery simulators. If the unit reacts the way they are supposed to immediately, they might get away with the OC only "killing"a few of them. If not, then he will adjust accordingly.

All in all, the training is very good to outfuckingstanding. Slogans like "More Sweat in Peacetime, Less Blood in Combat"adorn

barracks walls everywhere and alot of effort goes into making the training as tough and realistic as possible.

The National Training Center, Joint Readiness Training Center and other programs are some of the best training programs in any military in the world. There is also a major emphasis put on the junior leader and initiative which is unique and puts our military ahead of most others.

Of course when most of our combat units are keeping babysitting shitheads all over the world to stop them from slaughtering eachother, they dont get to train much (Oh yeah, training center in Germany for Peacekeeping duty, its very good from what I hear).

So, despite budget cuts, forced political correctness etc., our military training is very, very good.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:14:39 (ZULU)

Reminds me of a story from an Observer/Controller buddy of mine at the Joint Readiness Training Center.

Each soldier is issued a sealed brown envelope before going into the "Exercise Box" (the training area). When your MILES system starts beeping you reach into your pocket, and the pre-prepped card says something like:

"You are a multiple bullet wound casualty. You have no broken bones, but are in extreme pain and are bleeding. you will bleed out in 15 minutes if not treated for bleeding and shock. You require evacuation within 12 hours." The second card is for the first responder (your battle buddy, Combat Life-Saver, Medic, EMT, etc., and goes over the wounds from the responder's point of view.

A female soldier's MILES went off and she looked at it quizzically, then handed the card to the Lieutenant, saying "Sir, this is yours."

"Multiple shrapnel wounds. Eye injury and lacerations. Traumatic amputation of foot and penis."

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:30:59 (ZULU)

Jefe and Sinister Dave,

You guys bring back memories. Being in "The Box" in Hohenfelds, GE my first time was an EYE opener. 6 hours into the box, our incoming Duece and half got hit by an enemy RPG..(6-502nd Inf then, only two trucks in the company that weren't 81mm mortor assets) There goes our sleeping bags, duffles and ONLY chow not in the ruck until the PEHA processes the loss of equpiment, chow and personnel.

So, now our CO need to figure out the truck isn't here, find out why, order a new one with said equipment and chow, THEN it has to be processed through the PEHA and get out two us. All the while we're carryin' an with our missions, with no replacement ammo or gear 'cept LBE/Rilfe...

As I have a way of makin' a long story long,,,, That kind of training reinforces that if the SHTF we'd be without gear and chow at LEAST 4 days, in Germany, in November...(took less time to get the pack in the CO's HMMWV changed)

Logistics are key to every aspect of our lives in the field, and LOTS of people don't think of that stuff. They were too busy trying to get "dead eye" Pete qualified onto the range...or zeroing MILES...

We can spend ALL the time in the world learning how and when to take the shot, but if ya ain't got the rounds.....

I'd have to agree, JRTC in Polk, in March was definatly gooood training. Their OPFOR was outstanding...

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Can feel fall settin in, down to the midd 80's :-), Midd-Tenn, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 23:44:05 (ZULU)

Jefe - Agree on the fact that most officers have not the foggiest on sniper employment or deployment. I gave an Officer's Professional Development class to the 82nd in the 80s on that very subject. In the class I give at SOTIC on considerations for sniping, the first weakness I list is the Commander's lack of imagination and knowledge. However, I task them as the sniper and sniper coordinator to remedy that problem.

War Gaming is very important part of planning and must be done brutally and honestly. If I come up with a plan and my subordinates do not devils advocate it to death then I will be disappointed. At the same token I am just as upset when the next up takes it as a personal affront when you war game their plan. The players must see the possible weaknesses and holes in their planning and coordination. While all plans go in the crapper once on the ground, it is better to have fall back posiitons then to plan for the best and be horribly surprised. I would rather plan on the worst and be pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, I have been in both situations and horribly surprised sucks with a hospital stay.

Jim - Be careful thinking that the sniper should be in all situations. There are a number of weaknesses that the sniper has that he can not overcome. One of those weaknesses is that he can not be decisively engaged and thus can not hold ground. He can not engage a target that is either too far or too near. He must be employed and deployed according to his weaknesses, training and available equipment. This makes the sniper an asset that is valuable under certain circumstances but he not the answer to all things and circumstances. Thus he is not a key player only another asset to be exploited when the time comes. This is not an attempt to prove you wrong only an attempt to expand your thought process on this subject.

Sinister - When you stopping back by the team room for giggles. Drue got his class date for WOC school today. Man is he in for a "fun time"! :-)

If it runs by battery then it will fail at the absolute worse time. Just one of theose Mr. Murphy facts.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:08:04 (ZULU)

Jimbo the Doc: despite what a lot of units do, some of my best door-kickers and long-gunners (and guys who are trained at both) have been SF Medics. Commanders who only put the guy with the M-5 bag in the rear are often the ones who find out when you need a medic, you usually need him NOW! (Damn, howza little hole like that bleed so much?)

Then, start complicating the game by adding more stuff to the mix (a la DEA-style meth lab takedowns in full MOPP-4, in the dark, in the tropics).

At the base, elementary level it's still 5-paragraph fire and maneuver. Just a little harder.

A fit, educated (not book-learnin', but the been there-done that, dirty-sweaty-tired field training and live-fire and occasional two-way shooting gallery school of hard knocks) soldier knows what his body is capable of, but especially what his mind and fighting spirit are capable of (remember the Black Knight scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Some guys don't know when to quit, because it's not in their vocabulary).

A simple thing I once read made tremendous sense when applied to an individual soldier in the heat of combat. The body can sustain an incredible amount of punishment -- traumatic amputation, burns, broken bones, missile wounds, sucking chest wounds, blood loss, etc. -- just not all at once, or if the soldier knows what his damages are and can still operate (because he can prevent or control his body before it goes into shock, or he takes whatever action he needs to before succumbing to shock) there are legions of records where some make the supreme sacrifice before earning a posthumous Blue Max or Victoria Cross.

Yeah, medics are pretty damned important, and there usually ain't enough to go around.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:34:01 (ZULU)

I just ordered a barreled action from Howa/LSI. I paid about $270.00. I am going to order a tactical style laminated stock from Elk Ridge, it will run about another $200.00. I plan on pillar bedding it with steel bed from Brownell's. Is there anyone out there who has dealt with the Howa rifles? If so did I make a pretty good move or not?

Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
va, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:57:14 (ZULU)

Sarge, I use Black Hills almost exclusivly. My SSG PII gets 2670, my Rem 700 runs 2660. My shooting partner has a 20" tube on his 700 and he's getting 2580 ( so much for the 100 fps per inch theory ). It's good enough that I can't blame a miss on the ammo, it's my fault for sure.

Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 02:37:08 (ZULU)

Hey guys thanks for the help on the case trimmer issue, forester does make a long base which i didnt see before, however the standard trimmer has a built in 1/2 inch lengthing option. This is achieved by moving each side of the hardware out a 1/4 inch, man guess this means i need to be thinkin about buying more powder since i'll be loading a lot more of the big long thick cases, guess it could be worse (50 cal) but hey its all good n fun......keep the shots long and groups tight.

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 03:15:15 (ZULU)

One of youz guys sent me an e-mail today asking about doing Teflon on your stick... in the midst of sorting all the e-mail from all those wanton women, dying to have their way with my innocence, I lost the e-mail.

So here... you got questions, e-mail me again, (I promise I won't loose it)

I used a iron blueing tank, with cover that I bought from brownells... drilled two circles of 1/4" holes (6 each) to match the two front burners on the kitchen stove (I can do that.. I'm divorced ;)

The I drilled one 1/4" hole in the middle of each end, for rods to support the bbld action... and one 1/4" hole in the top, to insert a candy thermometer.

The cans of Teflon say shake for a minute or two... forgetaboutit!!! Shake them suckers about 20 minutes or more, or they will clog with clumps of moly!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 04:12:01 (ZULU)

Does anyone out there have a manual/instruction booklet on the Russian PU scope?

Thanks, Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 04:47:41 (ZULU)

Brian wrote, “ANDY'S DAD: What all do you carry when you deploy (average, everyday deployment) that will accommodate your needs as a sniper most of the time?”

As a certified has-been I must answer as if your question were hypothetical.

The standard waffle answer to such a question would be, “It depends.”

As we all know the gear will depend upon, Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Weather, etc. But here is how I organize my basic equipment;

Basic Ensemble:

O.D. Polypropylene underwear

O.D. Wool blend boot socks

Combat frame eyeglasses

Casio Digital Watch

Woodland Rip-Stop BDUs

Woodland Boonie Hat

Danner Arcadia Boots (Gortex)

O.D. Nomex flight gloves

Black Nylon Instructor Belt

O.D. Elastic suspenders

PDW, .45 Gov’t in thigh holster w/spare magazine

Kabar knife in kydex sheath on left thigh

Silva Ranger compass with lanyard

SWS:

Woodland drag bag

M40A1 w/M3LR, Harris bipod & Mike’s Sling

O.D. nylon stock pack

Kestral wind meter

Red LED mini light

Laminated wind data card

Ear plugs

5 rounds , Match Ammunition (in elastic loops)

Log Book w/mechanical pencil

Mil-Dot Master analog computer

Shooting sticks (graphite) buffalo hunter type

Woodland nylon butt sack

Leupold 25X spotting scope w/mil-dots & mini tripod

9 rounds, Match Ammunition (in elastic loops)

L.W. Support Module:

Camelback Mule, Woodland nylon w/burlap garnish

90 ounces, potable water

PUR Scout water purifier

Insect Repellant

Camouflage Face Paint

Mini Mag Flashlight w/red lens & lanyard

10 rounds, Match Ammunition (in stripper clips)

2 spare AA batteries

3 Grainola Bars

6 Slim Jims

H.W. Support Module:

ALICE Large w/frame modified by Tactical Tailor

In the interest of conserving bandwidth I’ll forego detailing the contents of the large ruck for now.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 12:07:47 (ZULU)

Robert French..

The Howas are good actions and if you need to know anything about them you can feel free to contact John Dustin at (970)884-0393. I met John a couple of years ago at a tactical shoot and he builds custom rifles using the Howa action and would be the man to talk to.

I talked to him again in August at the D&L shoot and told him of all the intrest in the Howa actions on this sight and he told me I could refer any of you guys with questions to him. He's a very nice guy and knows Howas inside and out. He builds some nice looking rifles on the Howa actions. Hope this helps.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:13:21 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I get 2680 - 2695 from my 24" Factory Rem tube. The stuff gave MOA at 300 during the crono session, and I plan on using it as a control for comparison to 175 SMK reloads.

BTW - I "found" a 5 gallon bucket full of LC 67 Match brass, once fired in my basement. Do you guys think it is suitable for accuracy work?.....:-)

Hope this isn't a repeat, the first try didn't show up???

Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
SOUTH WEST, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:24:47 (ZULU)

Sarge, on velocity from different weapons. Velocity is not a constant when you consider all the different bbls and chambers out there. Because of chamber sizes, bore dimensions, twists and how well the whole thing seals, velocity will be different between several different weapons that appear to be physically the same. I id a test with eight different sniper rifles:

1. PSS with 26"bbl Federal Match 175 ten rounds average 2600 (New bbl)

2. PSS 26", 200 rounds, 2600 fps average

3. PSS 24", unlknow amount of rounds 2575 average

4. PSS 26", 2000 rounds, 2550 ave

5. Winchester 26" HVY, 1000 rds, 2650 ave.

6. Norcal Nighthawk 26" KxP bbl, 2700 fps ave.

7. GA Precision Rock 22" Mike Rock bbl, 2625 ave.

8. NorCal M40A3 with 26" KxP bbl 2670 fps.

I did a second test with a Accuracy International 28" bbl in 338 Lapua, built by GA Precision against an HS Precision 28" bbl 338 Lapua. Thois was a testof how much powder it took to get the same velocity. In the HS I needed 86 grains of RL22 to get 2800 fps out of a 300 grain Sierra. In the GA Precision it only took 84 grains and 86 grains were way too much. Both shoot 1/2moa or better but the tighter bore and chamber dimensions of the GA Precision take less powder for the same velocity. With handloads you can compensate but with factory you are at the mercy of the equipment.

This is one reason I never give load data at the upper end. Goes weapon to weapon.

Sarge as you can see the better bbls tend to get more velocity.

Hope this helps

Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:32:35 (ZULU)

What I wrote and what I meant apparently did not synch on my last post...

Considering the way folks received my last post, I am AMAZED every response was constructive.... I am endlessly amazed by the genuine, unique cadre we have here...

Wargaming.. Jefe.. you are right, I did use the term incorrectly... what I was talking about is a computer "game" that let's you function as the eyes and ears of a small sized force (tactical management, small units)... and maneuver them against an opposing force of roughly equal capabilities... the "win" or "lose" outcome is determined by how well you move assets....I believe this to be the most potent use of a well trained hidden sniper with a bolt gun....I was not talking about "planning" at all.

Medics.. I have developed a fairly comprehensive understanding of how military medics are trained (some of it is similar to my training and some of it is better)... Unfortunately, I also have a tendency to assume you guys are reading with a context which you couldn't possibly have.... what I was talking about RE "training opportunities in your local volunteer organization" had nothing to do with field EMS....it has to do with effectively managing and directing manpower of a "military or para-military bent" while under extreme duress...

When I direct a three to four victim motor vehicle accident on a major highway, where extrication, fire suppression and EMS must be coordinated, I employ and refine manpower management skills which I believe would work equally as well in a "gunfight between opposing military units" ....to manage the gunfighters, not the victims...

Rick Boucher - "Be careful thinking that the sniper should be in all situations".... understood...

I have absolutely no military background or training... my opinions on this topic are based more on what a read here than on anything else...

For the purpose of constructive dialog, I have tried to put myself in the shoes of the "common grunt" that might be engaged... take for example Tony's BMP ambush link...

If you were picking equipment for your ten man team, would you choose the side that gets the 10 modern assault rifles, the armored vehicle, food, clothing and excellent support or would you take the pile of four old, shot out mausers, one unexploded arty shell, some wire and a det cap, and one RPG....

The answer is easy... but..

If I throw in that the "Mauser" team also gets to position half it's group to observe the enemy throughout the engagement (unarmed snipers w/ radios)...and they get to pre-position the other five men for a near perfect ambush point, with adequate time to setup...suddenly the decision switches sides... info and maneuver counter superior arms...

The skills I use to get my emergency vehicles on scene, deploy manpower, prioritize treatment and transport....these skills are very hard to refine and leave you very fast if you don't use them...

I advocate real life and death training for each and every person who would manage a small military unit into a meeting with the enemy...and I want to follow the direction of a forward deployed sniper looking right at the enemy....as opposed to someone staring at a map three miles behind the forward units....

You can get this exposure through a local fire or EMS unit... you do not get it in an ER (too safe) or while driving a police cruiser (too alone)...I don't know if a MILES based mock battle is the same thing... genuine death and danger has a way of changing the rules....

Hope I'm not being too off the wall. - Jim

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:17:05 (ZULU)

Jimbo, what's up boy ? Hey bro, I don't know about the exposure the guys in police cruisers get in your AO but in my hood, they get plenty. The other day in my unmarked Ford Taurus, I drove right through a damn gunfight between six gang bangers ON THE WAY TO FREAKING LUNCH !!!! Bout pissed my pants. Confiscated five pistols out of a barber shop and two off the street. Nobody hit. Nobody saw nothing. Typical. We usually get there most of the time before Fire or EMS. Just how it works here. All the death and danger you care to get into. Getting shot at sucks !!!!! Somalia, Port Arthur, LA or NY - really don't matter where the bullets come from.

Later bro, Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:53:05 (ZULU)

Jim, well done!

Ref: Wargaming

Years ago when the Earth was still cooling and I was a brand new Butter-Bar I would spend every spare minute playing a table top war game called "Dun Kempf". This was done on a 5'X 10' terrain model with little toy tanks etc. The game had a very strict set of rules and was quite involved. Playing this game let me learn valuable lessons about the art of war. Years later at Ft.Leavenworth I got to play larger more sophisticated "games". The value of such activities must not be under rated. I'm sure there must be PC based simulations today that would meet the needs of the small unit leader or sniper. Besides the training value, these games can be a real hoot.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:58:45 (ZULU)

Brain Sain.

You have misread me... I said the ER was safe and the police cruiser was a "solo mission"...

When was the last time you were called upon to coordinate a real time shoot out between twenty or so of your police brothers in separate cruisers, converging on a common location vs a well armed group of "bad guys"...throw in a air unit, maybe half dozen EMS rigs, etc... you get my point...this happens every once in a while, but certainly not on the order that a fire dept. will exercise it...

Police officers very often face danger ALONE because that's how the system works... firefighters face danger as a team and thus develop different skills...EMS workers face danger for their victims, as a team...SWAT, as a team, but not evolving in real time (you usually at least partially control the tempo) and not on equal terms (one against one), again, different.

I hope you see my point... I am not skilled at the type of people management you do on a daily basis but I can sure as hell see how it is necessary in your role...

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:11:38 (ZULU)

James Gibbons <jgibbons@vppsa.com>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:18:46 (ZULU)

I am a new poster and just getting set up for precision shooting.

I recently purchased a Remington PSS 700 in .308 and a Leupold 3.5-10x M3 scope. I am considering using Badger Rings and a Leupold Mk4 mount (as I do not have access to a 1000 yard range on a regular basis so I thought it might be better to use the Leupold base).

I am hoping I might get opinions or information as to whether or not there is any reason not to use this combination.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated!

Sincerely,

James Gibbons

James Gibbons <jgibbons@vppsa.com>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:22:34 (ZULU)

SEOs:

Agree with you on the SEO/NCO remedy re: employment and training issues Rick and most definately acted on them, although the receptions ranged from labeling me a troublemaker know it all to being well received and lots of benefits coming from it.

One of my non ending recommendations for NCODP and ODP at the unit level, is for the supporting element leaders (and I mean ALL of them, AT, Mortars, Medics, Commo in addition to snipers) to present short blocks of instruction on how they can support/integrate into operations. When they gave them at NCODP first, then refine the classes and present them at ODP. Of course in an infantry unit, ODP means new LTs, so they generally learn something. At the same time, the Os have something to offer from their training also at their skill level.

It works good for everybody and alot of learning goes on with all sides. It also promotes mutual respect, better teamwork and communications and identifies what leaders have their heads up their asses and corrections made.

As far as the SEO goes, I think that putting a former Scout/Sniper NCO in the S2 shop as part of an INF BNs TO&E would do wonders for the unit. I was very fortunate to have an outstanding S2 OIC AND NCOIC on active duty. While they didnt know much about the field, I definately had their ear and they listened to you based on credibility in the field alot more than rank.

Unless things have changed, (and god knows they have), I dont believe there is a formal slot of that nature in the S2 shop. Lots of other benefits up and down the chain from this type of organization.

However, it would really add to things to have a guy who knows the field, where MI types really dont (and I actually like MI). Having a guy like that even helps when REMBASS or other elements are attached for support and certainly helps with training, employment and dissemination.

KEY ?:

Do you have any decent unclass course material on the subject? Is DA working in this direction?

Thanks in advance for the advice and time.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:40:15 (ZULU)

Jim, no flame bro. No flame. I read you. Sorry if the printed word seemed caustic. Sometimes we do coordinate our stuff. When a new load of dope is coming in from Houston, we will hold over an entire shift of co