Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 2001

Just bought a Remington 700 light tactical with the 20 inch barrel.

Anybody shooting one of these want to recommend a load that I can use out to 500 meters?

Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville , pa, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:10:56 (ZULU) 

Im building a rifle on a model 11 Savage, and I need some advise.

1. With the piller bedding this rifle uses, sould the only contact point between action and stock be the pillers themselves or should I bed the tang as well?

2. Should I bed all around the recoil lug or just behind it? I have heard removing all contact except behind the lug will enhance accuracy. Also, should I add a barrel pad when I bed, and if so, how big should it be?

3. Can anyone guide me to a quality aftermarket stock, resonably priced, for a LEFT hand Savage 11?

I realize these questions are rather elementary, but i dont have access to a decent riflesmith locally. I would be greatful for any advice or help.

Tom Johnson <>
Ashland, Ky, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:39:43 (ZULU) 

Ok, my last comments on the tank thing.  I have no illusions of doing damage to a tank.  I would NEVER use a 50 against a tank.  Can’t crawl quietly with the dam thing and can’t get low enough afterwards. :-)

Marco - Yes, I will take a shot at a tank commander or driver at 300 to 500 meters with a 7.62 sniper rifle.  If I can get them to button up then they are vulnerable to anti tank fire and my task is done.  Again, I will not hurt the tank.  This scenario started as an exercise living in the insurgent world and not of land battle 2010.  The insurgent world is the world that I have lived in since 1967.  I do not know land battle 2010.  I do know that if you get into the insurgent world with your mind in land battle 2010 then I will hand you your pretty tanks just as the Mujahideen did to the APC.  If properly set in then tank crews will see M2 50s nicely but will miss the little sniper.  AS I stated, I am not trained in the land battle 2010 scenario, I only know what I have done to those that do live that scenario.  You may wish to check out Soviet Doctrine in this very area.  As SLUGBOY stated, if better assets are available then by all means use them but in the limited war scenario then there are all sorts of possibilities.  Each is an available tool that needs to be exploited to the fullest.  As far as the tankers kicking butt at 4000 meters, that is very true, they were against known enemies at known locations using BIG equipment.

Mike – The “bubble suits” themselves I feel are useless, as they will cause you to become a heat casualty if not careful.  I rank them along side of the “stealth predator suits”.  Try a ghillie suit made of “other” materials and you will be surprised how well they work at night.  Now they are worthless during the day.

My students did well on snaps and movers this day.  Will see how they do Tuesday after a weekend of debauchery.  :-)

Hold Hard guys.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 02:41:22 (ZULU) 


All this talk of killing tanks is making me want to develop a depleted uranium core .308 bullet that can penetrate 12" of armor...

I agree with Rick on this one...take out the commander if possible and get them to button up and your job is done. Have we hashed this one out enough?

George, nice new web site. If I added anything it would be a narrative description to your thumbnails to describe what each rifle is and what work was done...

RUMOR CONTROL: Had a call today from a friend. He indicated that Barnes Bullets has just got a large government contract for a 168 gr. .308 bullet with their blue coating on it. Can anyone verify this? Sounds hokey to me, as I'm not putting anything coated down my bores, until proven. Moly didn't pan out and I don't view this as anything different. Comments...?

Does anyone know if Remington has included thier new safety on the PSS series of rifles? Doesn't make any sense to me. This whole safety thing sounds like a great chance for someone to produce the standard bolt shroud and sell it. I WOULDN'T want one on a tactical rifle of mine. This whole "save the children" thread is getting badly out of hand.

As a side note: Cougar sightings are way up in the valley. Oregon does not allow hunting with dogs any more. Wonder how long this is going to last when someone becomes mid-rats for the big kitty.

'Lito, Now THERE is a cat worthy of your efforts!

Range time tomorrow, if I can get the casual hunter crew off the short 100 and 200 yard range. Something about them not liking me to shoot over their heads...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 03:09:42 (ZULU) 

To Marco

I would engage a TC out to 500 meters with 7.62 . I would not dare to engage the TI unit with 7.62 Nato. I would possibly try it with 338 LM with AP ammo out to 600 meters but only if there are friendlies also around i.e. I am not planning to damage the TI unit just for the fun of it if there are no TOW gunners close by to take the tank out.

Ken: I did not know about the shutters. Does anyone know whether T-80 or T-90 has those. I am not interested whether M1A1/A2 or Leapard 2 has them as I do not really see USA or Germany (or Sweden, or Norway) attacking Finland any time soon.

One more thing on IT. In some countries like Finland and Sweden even M1A1 does not have too much advantage from its better electronics. Usually the tank battle ranges here are 200-1500 meters and most of the time less than 1000m. Where M1A2 really shines is that its armor can withstand 125mm APFDS ammo made in Russia and it has a good cannon that can defeat anything Russia has ever produced. The easy pickings in Irak out to 4000 meters are not possible in most European conflicts because the environment is different i.e you do not have clear view that far out and if you do not then TI is not going to help you too much as it can not see through buildings or woods.

If we start talking about LandBattle 2010 or something similar, then in theory the new radars and automated anti´sniper guns will in theory kill all the snipers. In real life the sniper will be able to operate as there NEVER are enough of hi-tech goodies in the field.


Hexa <>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 03:41:06 (ZULU) 

Does anyone know anything about UltraMax ammo? Do they sell direct? The reason I am asking is a guy at the Idaho sniper shoot told me that he was able to buy Federal Gold Match through them at LE price (and he was going to get back to me and hasn't). I haven't been able to find anything but UltraMax being sold through a distributor.

Thanks, Tim

Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 05:58:50 (ZULU) 

Howdy folks!!  happy 3-day'er

Peter Lincoln:

Be careful, fella.  Try pickin up a phone, call collect, keep tryin', ha!HS will set you up with what you want.  As far as paint 'rubbin' off in 18 months, make it a point when you call.  But call first.  I have a 05F in grey/black webbing, had it for 5 years with many a round thru it, does not need a 'spruce-up' yet.  That is not saying that your's doesn't, but call first and see what HS will do for you.  The web-site is just an intro to what we offer, we also have salespeople who deal with customers personally.


Folks, this here rostah fella stopped by so I could take a gander at his fine ware, the 6.5 x 284. I think he thinks I'm nuts after the looksee I gave her.

I'm surprised his response wasn't:

BARRELMAKERS ARE SCREWY.  we're an odd lot, Pat.

Didn't like the stock. HA!!

When the velocity goes awry, seat yer bullets out further. hahah.  Hope for a 160 VLD .264" dia bullet, hahah..  Shoot round nose fatbodies.  Double HA!

Pat keeps a very well maintained barrel, and me thinks the rest of us could take note from this.

Sidenote eh Pat, me thinks you have run abrasives thru that bore?  Maybe not, but I could see some (very) light pitting which is usually from JB's.  Someday, I'll make an article of it..  hah!

It's a shooter though, would have liked to headspace it, no gages at work, but as far as groove diameter and bore condition, plug away!!  Looks twice as good as my .300 Winnie Pooh, and she has 500 left before she gets the rechamber.

'Lito, lito, lito:

Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet??  Hmmmm....  So you are saying a 1/12" twist in one barrel may not equal the RPM's in another 1/12" twist barrel at the same velocity?   It will not spin the same 1 revolution per 12 inches of travel for (x) distance?  Or are you saying that a bullet may not break as freely as one barrel to the next due to the land structure?

Dude, or undude, once it leaves the muzzle at (x) velocity, if it breaks clean from the crown, the rate of deceleration of gyration should be constant, depending on the bullet.  It's like comets and shit, isn't it??  HAHAH...  Devil's advocate, his right hand man am I.....

You should be able to compute the approximate RPM's necessary to stabilize a bullet.  This could be connotated into an 'angular' formula, which would be quite broad, but nonetheless accurate and not precise.  If the thing is spinning, whether at 50K Rpm or 40K Rpm, results are the same??  NO!  Perhaps at a certain range.

I agree that the 'bullet upset' will occur with different forms of land and groove structure, which will deviate the bullet because of deformity, but not the twist rate itself.

Paul, I'm pickin' yer brain cuz even though yer an old fart who lives in a dumpster to shoot cats, your constructive mind is  still in fairly good shape, hahah.  I have a pretty good idea what the answer is, but you are better at proving it.

By the way, we've got some big kittys closing in on the Rapid City area, in fact there was a Puma in town a few weeks ago!!!  Give me a heads up and I'll line you up with an 'Executive' style dumpster ghillie.   hoo hah!

Goin' goose huntin in the morn', check youse guys later


JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:00:49 (ZULU) 

Chris Fenico <>
philadelphia, pa, usa - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:10:49 (ZULU) 

Anyone know if it is possible to buy a M24 (the army issued sniper rifle) and if so where, and how much?

Chris Fenico <>
philadelphia, pa, usa - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:24:44 (ZULU) 

JR - "Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet??"

I can't speak for 'lito, but I believe he was referring to the spin remaining after having traveled several hundred yards.

Extrude a bullet through barrel 'A' and it's shape and mass will have a certain rotational moment of inertia.  Extrude an identical bullet through barrel 'B', with different land/groove dimensions than barrel 'A', and it will have a different shape, and thus a different rotational moment of inertia.

The greater the moment of inertia an object has, the more rotational speed it will maintain in the face of resistance, such as air.

Add to this the aerodynamic differences between the two differently extruded bullets, and you end up with two bullets with different rotational moments of inertia, and with different aerodynamics attempting to slow their spin.

Even if both bullets were launched with identical velocities and rates of spin, one of the two will have lost more of it's spin than the other by the time they reach the 500 yard marker.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 07:50:10 (ZULU) 


Just a couple of last comments:

1.  Sniper Employment vs. Armor in a conventional unit against armor

    is the same as what has been stated here about making them button


    Only difference is that the defender also allows the lead echelons

    to bypass and engages from behind or flanks, especially from urban

    areas.  Soviet doctrine was for the lead echelons to bypass such

   areas and let the follow on units finish them.  The AA units have

    supplementary positions to engage them as they pass by.  Shoot and

    scoot to the supplementary or althernate position was the order of

    the day for the TOWs etc.

    So, they remain buttoned up for a very long time; prior to your

   position, while passing it and beyond.  The snipers role in this

    scenario is far more important to protect the defenders against

   infantry, although by helping encourage them to button up protects

    revealing where your MGs etc. are.

    This type of defense relies strongly supplemental and alternate

   fighting positions.

2.  There are plenty of places in Europe where M1s can engage at 4K.

    In fact, Germany more or less sculpted their terrain along the

   areas where the Soviets would have advanced to produce wide open

    fields with patches of trees etc., for the defenders.

Jefe <>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 12:50:39 (ZULU) 

Hi guys, sorry for the long delay in any postings. Here's the latest UNCLASSIFIED stuff on the .408 testing.

First, the initial 13 guns are in production, of which 5 are still available in 6 weeks, perhaps less. I am responsible for the special applications developments on the gun. There are already changes in the bipod mounting system that will eliminate the long rod from under the barrel. Sorry, the new method is under wraps until a patent is established for the bipod and mounting system.

The Idaho III test was done to test the OPSINC suppressor and the initial version of the fire control computer (which by the way works for any caliber that we shot in Yuma Proving Grounds).

The suppressed gun shot under 1 MOA all the way to the test range of 1500 yards for the suppressor work. Time limited us to this range as we could not go any farther. Once the pictures are posted in the photo section, you'll see how the can is mounted to the barrel. The suppressor gains about 30 fps muzzle velocity over the standard brake and retains or gains accuracy over the standard system.

The suppressor also repeats it's zero perfectly when taken off and replaced. This was tested over and over on the 25th of August to determine it's repeatability and durability. She gets hot though, as do all suppressors. The OPSINC suppressor is all stainless steel construction and has no wear out point, there are no replacable baffles, etc in the can. It is designed to be drained in less than 6 seconds when fully submerged and tipped muzzle down to drain. The suppressor can be fired after the initial flush is done.

The suppressor is the quietest that I have tested on a long range rifle. Recoil is very mild as with the standard brake and watching bullet impact at 200 yards is easily done. At long ranges, 600 yards and more, a shooter can easily correct his own left and right errors by watching for bullet impact. You do not loose sight of the target under recoil. That's true with the McArthur brake also, but dust is kicked up by that brake.

The fire control computer (software was installed on a HP Jornada 525 for testing) worked as predicted also. We used field data taken from our Yuma Proving Grounds tests for downrange information. This method uses NO curve and extracts the exact BC or drag co-efficient value for the range entered. It is then corrected for conditions.

Elevation data was tested to 2000 yards at times of the day when maximum conditions fluxuation were in effect. From 4:00 am to 6:00 am at the test site, the air temp chagned +20 degrees. A new calculation and shots were done every 15 minutes. Vertical impacts were within .10 MOA (measured from point of aim to center of the group).

The Lost River Ballistic Technologies M40 bullets have very little precession, requiring about 10% the spin rate correction of the conventional bullets (Lapua, Sierra, and everyone else). That required a tweaking of the spin correction formula. Also tested were the corrections for Coriolis or the earth's rotation. For those that don't think it's an effect, IT IS. Misses will occur at 1500 yards or greater on certain points on the globe if Coriolis is neglected.

The bullet's resistance to wind deflection also required a tweaking of the standard wind formula. A critical part of that formula is true flight time to the target. The LRBT bullets however, do not fly as other bullets do and using the standard formula results in overcorrections. That is also fixed.

At this point, we are moving forward with Version II of the software. The projectiles will be offered in two versions. The J40 version is for the civilian market and is a softer alloy. The flight characteristics are the same. The M40 projectile is for the military application, having a much harder material. The J40 leaves no copper fouling in a broken in barrel and is easy to clean.

Velocities will be 3000+ on the production guns based on tests. I know this sounds dry and clean, sorry, not much time. Have to get ready for another trip. More to follow, check out the pictures.


trigger50 <>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 13:46:16 (ZULU) 


Do any of you know where I can find US Army, USMC field manuals online? I was in a book shop, and found a British "Soldier's Handbook" and wanted to see what the US version was like. BTW, the British Handbook seemed to have a lot of good info. Lots of stuff about training drills for weapon handling, etc. was included.


Bill B <>
KY, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 14:55:13 (ZULU) 

Ken: I did not know about the shutters. Does anyone know whether T-80 or T-90 has those. I am not interested whether M1A1/A2 or Leapard 2 has them as I do not really see USA or Germany (or Sweden, or Norway) attacking Finland any time soon.<<<<

Never know, the Germans might decide to rule the world again:)  The M1A1 is important for our Israeli buddies because that's what the Egyptians currently use.  I seem to recall that the modern T-80(like the U and UD), modernized T-72(like the UM varient IIRC) and T-90(non-export) and T-90S(export) have the TI mounted on the left side of the top of the turret(looking towards the front) and it's recessed into the top armour and baffled so that's it's vulnerable from about 10degrees either side of the main gun.  Not cool from other angles unless your shooting something serious, like 30mm APDSFS.  OK, here's a picture of the T-64BV(non-export):

Here's a photo of the T-72BR varient, which was offered for export IIRC.

Here's a T-80U which is is seeking fairly widely exportation into the Gulf states of the ME, and similar varients are already going to Pakistan:

That pretty much covers all the important modern Russian armour, with most modern tanks(T-80UD, T-84(Ukranian dieselized T80 for the most part)and the T-90 series being various combinations of different hulls, engines and turrets for specific foreign sales.  Different armour packages, but that doesn't effect us one way or the other as nothing I plan on carrying is going to do diddly squat, even an AT4(don't even think of trying a frontal shot with one of these, or most any manpack shaped charge that's not top attack)  That's just real simple tank ID, do some quick google searches for whatever you like or e-mail me and I'll send you some more photos.

Oh, I think somebody mentioned reactive armour vs Mk211.  They are designed to be inert to MG's and small auto cannon, don't know if that works IRL.  I'm thinking that some of the newer armour uses an outer layer of NERA(Non Explosive Reactive Armour) which uses a elastic material like rubber or in some cases fiberglass between two layers of armour plate and when it gets hit the outer plate moves around and eats up the shaped charge jet, reducing penetration.  I'm not an engineer, this is just what I've read.  The engineers I've talked to seem to think it works pretty good however.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 15:04:49 (ZULU) 

Pack VS Bipod

    For the three or so years that I have taken rifle shooting seriously I have always shot off my pack.  I hate the way a bipod takes a set when you slap it down and you have to dink with it.  A pack just seems to feel better to me.  That being said I am going to break down buy a harris and endevaour to use it.  I see people shooting better than me, particularily at 500yd and beyond with bipods and i dont think ALL of it is who is behind the trigger.

    Ideally we would just pack sand bags into the field and use them as the consistency of there reaction to recoil is uniform.  As no one wants the weight we use are packs instead.  Unfortunately the packs reaction to recoil is not as uniform as sand or shot.

   Not only is the the packs reaction to recoil less uniform than a sand bag but it also varies depending how you stuff our pack.  If the pack is to react the same way everyshot it must be packed the exact same way every time with the same items.  These items must be folded the same way and packed in the same order.  What happens when you actually need one of those "items" like your pancho outside of your pack and need to shoot off your pack at the same time?  The packs reaction to recoil changes is what.

   The very thing that makes a pack fast to shoot off of , the fact that the rifle moves about on the pack, makes for another factor.  Placing the rifle forend farther out on the pack or to one side of the fact changes the way the rifle recoils.

   Lastly in regards to movement yes it is a faster first shot at ranges under 500yd to drop your pack and slap your gun on it and take the shot.  But if you have to get up and move after this guess who moves first?  The bipod shooter merely picks up his rifle and runs, the pack shooter has to get back into his pack or web and then pick up his rifle.

  I still like pack shooting but I am going to try to master the bipod.  Theyve broken me.  By the way I forget what is THE Harris to buy?  It should go well on the Mcmilllan A-2 Ive ordered.


Ben <>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 15:24:05 (ZULU) 


Yo' is a dumb bunny ;))

HA!(as Pat would say).

First off, it's time that somebody reveals yo' secret identity, so I'm gonna "bust your hide!... I'm gonna lay it all out, for the world to see.  Most of you guys don't know "JR" from a rock (cuz he sorta looks like one ;)... some of you guyz know he works for H-S Precision.

Now here's the real skinny on that rascal!

"JR" is the barrel maker for H-S Precision... now you might think "So friggin WHAT!"... the guy down the street makes barrels too... BIG DEAL.

Well... it is a BIG DEAL because...  H-S Precision is one of ONLY TWO companies (none of you guyz ever heard of the other company) that are certified to make SAAMI Test barrels, and what are called "Universal Receivers"... these big $25,000 guns and fast swap pressure/standards test barrels that test the ammo you guyz shoot, are the cream of the gun industry!!!

That's it... nobody else can make these puppies, and "JR" makes the barrels.

So inspite of rumors that he's funny looking, and inspite of the fact that he's the only guy in history to ask my Ugly fat sister out on a SECOND date... if he talks barrels, yo' dumb ass better listen... hard!


OK... now to business!

> 'Lito, lito, lito:

>"Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet??  Hmmmm.... So you are saying a 1/12" twist in one barrel may not equal the RPM's in another 1/12" twist barrel at the same velocity?   It will not spin the same 1 revolution per 12 inches of travel for (x) distance?  Or are you saying that a bullet may not break as freely as one barrel to the next due to the land structure?"<

Nope... if you shoot a bullet at 3000fps from 100 barrels with a 12" twist, they will all have the same spin-rate as they leave.

>"Dude, or undude, once it leaves the muzzle at (x) velocity, if it breaks clean from the crown, the rate of deceleration of gyration should be constant, depending on the bullet.  It's like comets and shit, isn't it??"<

Comets??? You mean the sink cleaner, or those dumb stars that fly tailways backward? ;)

Bullets will decelerate from their forward motion at the same speed (or "un-speed")... but their loss in rotational velocity will vary with the surface finish or texture, and that is formed by the rifling.

Think of those tyre balancing machines at the tyre store... take two of them, and put a racing slick on one, and a "Monster Mudder" on the other... both the same weight, and size.  Then spin them up to 600 rpm, and kill the power.  The surface air restance of the slick is low, and it will decelerate slower (or spin longer) than the "Monster Mudder", who's big, chunky tread will cause a lot of air drag.

Now take this picture, and think base balls... the kind of surface a base ball has (in terms of roughness) will determine the amount of change of course the ball will take on a curve ball pitch.  When the curve ball got popular in base ball, the association had to standarize the ball surface in order to make it fair, and an umpire will pull a ball from the game, if the surface gets roughed up, because it will curve more with a rougher surface...

Now take this picture, and think boolets... when it is shot out of a barrel, the air over the surfaces is the same on all sides, but as gravity starts to take effect, and it starts to drop, there is an additional airflow coming from under the bullet, and this air flow now gets skewed more to one side of the bullet because of the bullets rotation, and causes it to slowly start to drift to the other side of it's normal path... just like the air hitting a curve ball (or sliced tennis ball) will cause it to drift.

So... the rougher the bullets rifling, the more the drift... this is a bit of counting angels on the head of a MatchKing, cuz "Spin drift" is a very minor effect at the ranges that we shoot, and the difference in the amount of drift between a bullet with 0.002" groves, and one with 0.003", is not 50%... it's a tiny bit, because of what's called the "laminar effect" (which is a four page write in itself).  The difference in drift between the two depths of rifling might be 10% of the total drift, which itself is very small... it might be able to be measured on the bigger guns like the .338 Lap, or the 50BMG at ranges of 1,500yds or more.  And, except on perfectally windless days, these things are lost in the "noise" of the real enemies of longrange shooting... wind, velocity "ES", and ranging errors.

>" HAHAH...  Devil's advocate, his right hand man am I....."<

You damn betcha!! You're a booger too!!

>"You should be able to compute the approximate RPM's necessary to stabilize a bullet.  This could be connotated into an 'angular' formula, which would be quite broad, but nonetheless accurate and not precise.  If the thing is spinning, whether at 50K Rpm or 40K Rpm, results are the same??  NO!  Perhaps at a certain range."<

The computations are sketchy at best... the "Greenhill" formula, which is standard fair, was written back in the 1870's, and was derrived from solid lead round nosed bullets, with the center of gravity in the "middle" of the bullet, that were 2 or 2.5 diameters long, that were shot at below the speed of sound... and everybody thinks Greenhill was written by GOD!  This is the "best we've got?... it's junk math for the bullets we've got now.

We now shoot pointy bullets that can be 6 or 7 dimeters long, at 3 to 4 times the speed of sound, and that are (for the longrange shooter), TAIL HEAVY, and ballistally unstable by design!

If the bullet is launched at a rotational speed that is sufficent to get it on track and keep it from tumbling, and the 200 yd groups are great... suppose the rotational speed drops below that which is required for stablilty at 800 yds... it then starts to tumble out of control.  Take the clasic 168SMK @ 2600 load... there are guys that love this load at 1000, and others that complain that sometimes they get a sideways mark in the target... it's because the rotational stability of this load is marginal at 1000yds in a 12" twist, and the slightest perturbance (a flap of a butterfly's wing ;) will cause it to tumble... but you will NEVER hear someone with a 10" twist, making the same complaint, because for the 10" twist is rock stable at 1000yds, the threshold of marginal stability being out around 1200 to 1300yds.

The spin drift of a 10" barrel is 20% more, but is still lost in the "noise" of windage, and at that range, velocity "ES", and the resulting vertical dispersion really becomes a big problem... much bigger than spindrift.

>"I agree that the 'bullet upset' will occur with different forms of land and groove structure, which will deviate the bullet because of deformity, but not the twist rate itself."<

Keep in mind that different rifling will mark the bullets differently (and Shilen now is playing with ratchet rifling Hmmm)... if all groves and lands are uniform, then there is no "deformity"... it is "uniformity".  It is deformity, only if some parts are different than others... very Baaad

>"Paul, I'm pickin' yer brain cuz even though yer an old fart who lives in a dumpster to shoot cats, your constructive mind is still in fairly good shape, hahah.<

HA!... if you could see into my mind, even you would walk away totally confusified (or blushing)! Double HA!

>"By the way, we've got some big kittys closing in on the Rapid City area, in fact there was a Puma in town a few weeks ago!!!  Give me a heads up and I'll line you up with an 'Executive' style dumpster ghillie.

I'm hoping to get to SoDak next year, to see you and Pat... and do some doggies... if the dogs aren't good, I'll always settle for "Cats" ;))



CatShooter <>
French Cat... regular ally or backyard Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, ...then, of course, there's the OTHER French Cat... also YUMMY!!, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 16:23:06 (ZULU) 

Jefe you are correct that in EUROPE there are many places where you can shoot out to 4k. Fulda Valley and Netherlands come to my mind. I was talking about Finland which is TOTALLY different game.

Think about the following: 30% of Finland is either swamp or lakes, most bridges do not tolerate a 40 ton T-72 let alone a 60 ton M1A1 and to crown it all most of the remaining land mass is woods. I believe something like 15-20% of the land mass is fields where you could have traditional tank battles. Luckily the best places for this kind of action are nowhere near the Russian border. Besides our fields do not carry tanks most of the year as in spring and fall they are too soft and in winter they are often covered with 3-5 feet of snow that causes problems for most tanks. In winter the gorund is hard so it can support tanks better. Basically our tanks move most of the time along narrow roads in the woods where visibility is usually only a few hundred meters.

Unlike most tank tactics propose, the Finns keep their tanks mostly in the woods because it easier than to use the few open spaces taking into consideration that in a war with any neighbour we would not have air superiority. The Russians can not move their tank formations well in the woods and those you might pick up in the open. Finnish troops are almost allways in the woods until they really have to come out to fight. Our doctrine is totally different from most other countries and it is dictated by the lack of air superiority and very difficult terrain for "normal" tank battles.

I am not saying that M1A1 could not operate in Finland as it can but I am saying that they would get hit too because they could not rely on their superior 4k reach but had to rely more on tactics, fast action and superior armor. The good TI would be a good asset but not something that would by itself guarantee anything.


Hexa <>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 17:54:02 (ZULU) 


Fair enuf!  Funny you should mention Fulda.  I was stationed about 10K west of there.  Sometimes we would pass out on the train heading back from Frankfurt and fortunately, the Polezei would wake us up at the East German border.

It was a very long walk back to base in the wintertime as it was usually the last train!

Does Finland have a Mountain Infantry unit?

Jefe <>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 19:22:17 (ZULU) 

Rumor Mill Running Rampant!

Alright you super sleuths! Get to work here! Lock and load or status quo?

Now where where did I put that dang howitzer? Bolt out and waiting for the alien invasion!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 20:30:26 (ZULU) 

JR, I figured there was some one lurking around on here who worked for HS, last time I called you guys, you'll where too busy to repaint stocks, but if the rush is over I'll call again and arrange getting my stock seen to, the finnish didn't last long, the 18 months comprised of 3 weeks solid hunting in Scotland, and maybe 2 weeks here in Germany, plus maybe 45 half days on the range, the finnish started looking shabby after the second week in Scotland the stock was then 3 months old, flakes of the paint came of just rearward of the rifle action on the second or third range session, I figured maybe the paint hadn't cured correctly, The stock (  Rem 700 LA thumbhole sporter) has otherwise been great, tough as nails, just the finnish didn't last, I've repainted it 3 times with some OD enamel stuff I bought in the PX, but it looks shabby and as Im rebuilding the rifle (cos I wore the barrel out with 3500rds Hornady LM 30-06)I wanted to get the stock done properly, the only pain in the ass is the cost of the shipping $50 each way !! and if the customs get a hold of it they like to charge tax on what its worth not on what the paint job cost, no wonder I have to call collect, !! thanks for the reply, Pete L,

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 21:16:03 (ZULU) 

All this talk of Tanks reminds me of the best ever 3 shot group I made, 3 into 12" at 3200m ( 120mm APFSDS) well I was impressed.

I am absolutely convinced that the best use of Scout Snipers against Armour is to give the sniper the possibility to call in either Arty, an air strike, be it fast movers of Attack helo's or your own armour to engage, some thing along the lines of, what did they call it ? Stingray? any how, when i was with 1Bn A+SH, the FOO spent 75% of his time with the Sniper teams, the rest with Reccy PL, cut out the middle man, Scout /Sniper/FOO, or are you guys in the military already doing this and I'm re-inventing the wheel, I did get the impression that the consensus of oppinion in the Brit Army was that you either had to be an officer or SAS to call in such assets, Jock squaddy wasn't trusted enough to get his grid right enough to drop bombs on things, but on the other hand, we all know the one about officers with maps !!, let the cook(Slop Jockey) call the air strike,, please !! Pete l

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 21:32:22 (ZULU) 

Peter L,

Guess hunting in october is a big nono, now with another outbreak of foot and claw disease near the Scottish border??

(was starting to really look forward to it, me just gotsta shoot me one of them Bambi's at long range...)

The Winnie is performing better and better, with Lapua 170 grain lockbase bullets and 44 grain of n140 in Lapua cases with federal nr 210 primers i got the following results at 100 meters;

5 shot group1- 0.6885 inch

            2- 0.5935

            3- 1.1590

            4- 0.6730

            5- 0.3500

average speed, 2705 fps.

With 185 scenars and 42 n140, average speed 2608 fps, and at 500 meters average groupsize for 5 shot groups 6 inches, same ammo but shot with the psg made the groups a bit smaller,6 shot groups of 5 inches average with 2 six shot groups of only 2.5 inches, but i guess that was more luck than capability.

We might be conducting a "sniper" gettogether 3 weekends from now, a whole day of stalking, cams/comms, observation lanes, kims games, tips and tools trading etc etc. We got it almost straightened out with authorities, got ourselves a nice little army training ground, some 7,62 blanks, maybe some nightsights , TI's and handsfree comms from the bossman, will be a fun and interesting day, if your interested mail me or Stefan. (maybe something for master T aswell?)

Maybe cya on the bridge near Osnabruck on monday, peter, ill be on the look out for a Brit with a sniper squishgun wearing a pink ghillie...

To Mike Miller;

wandering if you received my money order for the sling yet...

To all rosterfarians,

Anyone near the State of Kentucky now of any good long ranges to shoot at? Do not mind if it is a day riding or so...really would like to do some shooting while i am over in the States in October and November, all the ranges i have found on the internet are kinda short, pistol ranges, would like to do some long range shooting since overhere in the Netherlands i'd end up shooting civilians if i shoot further than 500 meters...our little country is just that...little!

About to shoot another $60.000 dollars worth of TOW rockets in the coming week, (live is good)


Happiness is seeing a tank go KABOEM.

Marco <>
the Hague , ZH, NL - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 23:26:39 (ZULU) 

Scout-snipers in the USMC often call most of the arty for the Bn.  In peacetime they don't let enlisted call CAS, which is stupid IMO, since you don't magically learn it when the balloon goes up.  Now this depends on the BN, and the level of trust the BC has in his snipers, but my last CAX('99) I had three batteries of 155's to play with, and probably called fifteen individual missions, and three or four series missions, most using RAP, which sucks BTW.  The mortar platoon has a FO with each line company, who can call arty too.  Very often the only officers involved in the arty process are the FSO's at the Bn level.  The FDC I worked with was run by a Sgt.  Not surprisingly, things went very well.  We had an air officer with our team for the purposes of calling CAS for the training, but IRL there's no way that would happen.  Each line company has an air oficer for CAS, and often they crosstrain on arty.  Pretty much every infantry NCO should have a good grasp of calling mortars and arty, and at least the basics of a nine line CAS brief.  Even if they just have the cheat sheet, the pilots will be able to talk them through it.  With pilots, the comm procedures go out the window.  They usually just want to know where to drop what, and when, and an egress heading.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 01:29:07 (ZULU) 

Wes,  On the 168 gr Barnes bullet, I can confirm this rummor for you, I have a case of loaded ammo and a few bags of bullets that I got from Barnes. I  along with a few others were sent these bullets for testing.  They are a 168 grain boattail version or their- x bullet (solid copper) . I was given the XLC (blue coated) bullets and the uncoated bullets for testing.  They shot in the 3/4 to 1 MOA range in rifles of mine that normally shoot .200 to .400.    Barnes was contacted by the Goverment for purchace of these due to new EPA restrictions on their ranges. if you want a couple of boxes of the ammo to mess with email me.

The text is being added to the gallery photos, on my site.

300 WSM

I have also tested all the Winchester factory offerings  of the 300 WSM:

180gr Power Point SP   Avg Vel  3008     Avg Accuracy   1.030"

180gr Falsafe Premuim  Avg Vel  3024     Avg Accuracy    .780"

150gr Bal Sivler tip   Avg Vel  3415     Avg Accuracy     .480"

The above is based on 10 5 shot groups with each type.  I was impressed with the 150gr variety.   23 MOA to 1000 yards  pretty damn flat.  I am still doing alot of playing with this cartridge, I really like what the 175 grain Sierra's  are doing at 3100.   .300" avg at 100 yards. I need to get these loads to the 1000 yard line.

George Out

George Gardner, G.A Precision Rifles <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 04:44:57 (ZULU) 

On the unconvencional urban war against tanks(This probably has only historical value now).I have a friend who escape from Hungary in 76,his father jumb out the window last time KGB knock the door few months after the Revolusion.He was about 8years old then and he told me the civilians used to lay plates on the streat upside down to look like mines.When the tanks slowed down for few seconds to get abetter look they would throw molotovs from the roof tops.Soviet response was to blow up the top floors of the buildings with total desregard for unarmed civilians.They also used the trick of sliping between 2 Rusian units in the midle of the night take few potshots at both directions and slip out leting the soldiers shoot each other

Jim <>
Marathon, Fl, usa - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 18:19:16 (ZULU) 

I have no doubt that as I sit here at this computer, today, the technology exists to be able to search an area of flat ground, acquire by day or night (through fog and smoke) by the heat the target emits (or contrasts against), shoot a supersonic projectile from a gyro-stabilized rifled or smoothbore tube, while both the target and shooting platform are moving in excess of 75 miles per hour over rough terrain and through woods.  I know it exists in the US M1A1 and M1A2 tanks, and to an extent in the 25mm Chain Gun system in the Bradley and 30mm Bushmaster in the Apache.

The electronic thought that goes through the computer includes wear of the rifling in the tube, tube droop, winds between me and target, temperature of propellant, BC and ballistics of any of at least six different types and weights of projos, drift, Coriolus effect, humidity, barometric pressure, and I'm sure a dozen other variables I've not thought of.

Someday that may (and I don't doubt will) be in a package small enough, durable enough, dependable enough, and affordable enough for an above-average IQ infantryman or commando to learn how to operate and be able to sustain at better than average hit probability.

But I can't hold one today.  I'm not saying prototypes aren't available, but I must put my marbles on the side not of the nay-sayer, but of the dubious and not totally convinced.

So Dean, please don't feel pissed off that I, still at Cro-Magnon knuckle-dragging level, am not doing handstands and rushing to the credit union for a loan to buy the whole shebang you're suggesting may obsolete what I as a hobbyist am willing to invest in today.  If it's the better mouse trap for killing my fellow man, believe me I will suggest to the Army we buy it immediately.  But I'm still not convinced that the 25-pound AAI/HK Advanced Individual Combat Weapon is the Silver Bullet it's been promised either.

I absolutely do not trust everything that comes out of the Army's labs or the Operational Test Command.  Both often produce or work on concepts just to keep engineers and scientists employed, without regard to making a foot-soldier's life easier or more effective.

Makes for interesting reading though, I must admit.  How much does all this weigh?  I'm interested in your first round hit records (day/night, and in winds).

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 19:34:17 (ZULU) 


Don't feel too bad. You got company.  I'm with you, Dude!

Us "old" guys have to stick together againse these new fangled shooting computer thingies. If'in we don't, they will take our old fasioned M3 'scope sights away, and then what the hell will we do???

It's amazing how one guy is walking around with the toy in his pocket, that all the militaries in the world would LOVE to have, and he ain't a millionair yet.

You think we missed something here... was this announcement really a pre-release press conference... maybe Ol' Dubya Bush can now quit the anti-ballistic program, and just get some of these pocket doohickies, and mount them on old, recycled Redstone missles???

Ya' think???

I wonder if it'll work on Cats??

CatShooter <>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:12:22 (ZULU) 

Lito,I wouldnt presume to give you advice but I dont think a cats bc will get anywhere near .9oo.H ow would you launch a cat @2900 without it burning or coming apart?I think the whole thing would have to be reconfigured to use it on cats.



Gavan Willis <>
1st day , of spring, downunder - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:30:36 (ZULU) 


No, no, you dumb bunny...

I meant if it'll work to TARGET Cats!

I want to get one so I can compute the Corriolis effect, spin drift, terminal velocity, precession, yaw, and all that other really cool scientific stuff on a .177 cal pellet at 650 fps.

Hell man, I might be able to reach all the way to the fat lady's yard, so they wouldn't die in my grape arbor (Yuck... dead Cats really ruin the taste of the wine!)

CatShooter <>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:40:23 (ZULU) 

Marco, this foot and mouth may screw us for our bambi sniper exercise, if that doesn't, the operation I need on my goddamn right foot will, lets wait and see, get your trip to the US booked, we have the rest of our lives to go Bambi'ing in scotland, I promised my son I'd take him on his first scottish hunt in April, tag along if you like, also 1st week in August is one for your diary(definalely) hey it won't run away, how about 5 days Boar hunting plus 2 days driven boar( 8th to 14th Oct) now that'll test your CQB skills, I will look out for the Cloggy convoy tommorow, I'm off to the UK tommorow or tuesday, want to attend my uncles funeral, I'll be back on Friday, Aboput this sniper w/end, aren't I too old and crippled for that?? how do I explane 3 weeks scotland,and a w/end in Holland, she will not believe that the training area isn't in the centre of Amsterdam !!

Did you get your winnie trigger sorted? and have you had any more thoughts on who will build your 6.5 ?? sory abouit long winded post, I seem to have miss laid your email address on this computer,, enjoy your excersise in BB, do you know Trauen camp, we always used that as a base, I only saw the camp on the last day for a shower, spent some time in Hohne though, I used to repair the GTS (gunnery training simulators) for the Armoured regt's up there, 'till they sold the Challenger 1 to the Jordanians for 1GBP each, can you belive it, at that price I would have bought 5, !! regards.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 22:03:46 (ZULU) 


Been in the shop all day and at the feet of the master.

FINALLY finished correcting a small problem with my inletting on my Mexican Mauser custom project. Took it to Steve Nelson and he proclaimed it "ready to proceed" and shape. To celebrate, we cut the stock to the correct length of pull and squared it. It even looks like a real walnut stock now. Final shaping, finishing, and checkering. Say another 100 man hours of labor and it'll be ready. To bad I won't have it ready for deer season, but there's next year. Will have to use my pre-64 Winchester M70 Featherweight in .308. Life is just to rough...;-)

Have Steve to the point were he is ready to build a tactical rifle. Now THAT IS progress!

Got to handle and see the 2002 American Custom Guncrafters Guild raffle rifle. Gent's you GOTTA get in on this. Tickets are $20.00 each and they only sell 2,000 of chances are good. Here's waht you get: Custom Mauser 404 Jeffery stopping rifle/ gold inlay and engraved, high grade english walnut stock. An absolutely beautiful piece! Also, a custom fitted Marvin Huey case ($4,500. value), and a damascas custom made high grade hunting knife and sheath with fancy file work and Ivory handles ($1,800. value). Total Value is $19,000.00! GET A TICKET!

All for now.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 23:38:36 (ZULU) 

Happy birfday to me, yadda yadda yadda. Turned 47 this morning, figures it would be raining. Getting old ain't all it's cracked up to be. Stuff that used to hurt for a day now hurts for a week. I thought we were supposed to age like fine wine, so far it's like MD20/20!

Not aging with grace, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 23:45:02 (ZULU) 


A George Gardner built, 1-11 twist, Rem 700 action, Leupold glassed (ballistically indexed) feline launcher (powered of course by VarGet).  Gotta love it!

I can just see Sylvester going trans-sonic at 1,100 yards!


Sinister Dave <>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 02:18:48 (ZULU) 


As the Ice time 10000 years ago flattened Finland totally we do not have any real mountains and threfore no mountain troops either. Instead we have over 100000 quite shallow lakes, swamps etc.

We do have some hills in Lappland that for some might be mountains but they are only max 1300 m high (4300 ft) and they are really smooth. You do not need any climbing equipment to conquer them. Actually practicing mountain climbing in Finland is VERY hard to do as we do not really have any real mountains.

If you meant with mountain troops soldiers who can fight in harsh winter in difficult terrain then yes we have them. Some say we have 700000 of them (our reserve) but seriously said we do have enough properly trained reserve soldiers to fight in Lappland at any time of the year.


Hexa <>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 02:53:16 (ZULU) 

 While loading for the WinMag today I noticed that  runout in about every 4th or 5th case jumped from just under .002 before bullet seating, to as high as .007 after. Using Forster benchrest die. Most Federal Match I have checked runs around .002. Is this much ado about nothing and is brass, (same lot of once fired RP), die, or myself most likely culprit?....Me thinks all of this technical shit posted lately is makin' my ass too tight....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:18:05 (ZULU) 

Howdy folks!

'Lito, Mike:

Thanks for the response, eh.  I wanted to use this forum instead of e-mail to get the info out there, and I know there are plenty of knowledgeable folks itchin' to answer such queries.  These are questions that were asked hundreds of years ago, yet there is little that a guy will find at the local library about the subject.

All those questions were baited, and youse guys took the hook.  Thanks!!!!  I am humbled by your vast knowledge... haha!

...speaking of humbled,

'Lito, you old fart!

I feel like the sniper with the Starlite scope who has just came across the enemy's infrared!!  Scope out and duck for cover!!!!  hahah

My cover's blown, ha!

Guys, the only 'rock' you'll see in my department is the one I hide behind to catch a few zzzz's between rifling 50 cal's!

Yep guys, I make somewhere around 90% of the barrels that test the ammunition youse guys use in yer rifles and shotguns and pistoles.    Probably about all of the 50 caliber barrels used in the military proving grounds.  The info you see in a lot of the reloading manuals or on the back of the box most likely came from a barrel by yours truly.  And I have been making a lot of 'em lately.

lito, today's use of the greenhill is sketchy at best, I agree, and I use a similar formula which pertains to todays bullets, as we generally use an ogive of 6-8 calibers for 'match' bullets, and still takes the general approach of the length of bullet but I also add the center of mass as a factor into the stability.  A guy also has to remember that they used 'lead' bullets for greenhill, which has a different specific gravity than today's jacketed bullets, and has to be computed into the equation.  A bullet of different material will not fly the same.

You did well sir!!  The flats and grooves initiated by the rifling to get it to spin actually inhibit the RPM's differently from barrel to barrel due to the surface finish left on the bullet AND the depth of the cut.  There is a range of RPM's you want to keep the nose up, but it is very broad.  The ONLY reason I am against faster twist barrels is stripping the jacket, which will not be the case with a 10" twist rate in a .308.  I guess one other reason would be if you used such an excessive twist at a high velocity without stripping the bullet, the bullet would tend to yaw more in the direction of the spin.  And depending on the center of gravity of that bullet you may experience a 'rise' that you would not have expected.  I worried about this with the 1/6" twist rate Berger specified for a 17 Remington blank I made 2 years ago.

Yer sis ain't too bad, 'lito, just tell her to shave the 5:00 shadow, and I'll stop taking her out to dinner at the Mc'D's drive thru.  Hah! (doubleHA!)

One more thing, and Pat may not be privvy to this, not sure, but I do know a few people on the Reservation with a wild dog problem, have remedied a few packs on occasion.  You get about every size of target, from German Shepherd size to poodle.  Good antelope practice, hah!

Peter Lincoln:

I hope I didn't come across as 'bustin' yer balls, I just see too many manufacturers get the raw end of the schtik on this site when if the customer would speak with the company in question, the problem would be resolved.

I know you are on the other end of the world, and now youse guys have to figure out what your money is actually worth, damned socialist Euro's, hahah, so I tell you what.  E-mail me your concerns, with your address and telephone #, I will see what I can do for you.  I can probably get one of our representatives to call you on our dime, deal??  I honestly give a shit about how our customers are treated.  (pardon the vulgarity, Ken)

later folks

JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:32:34 (ZULU) 


I think we'd have to go with a slower twist for the 'cat launcher', we don't want to skin the cat before he leaves the barrel, doesn't fly as accurately.  Minimum of 1/60".  Otherwise you'll be cleanin' catgut, pullin' violin strings out yo barrel.

I don't know if any of youse have seen 8 gauge industrial guns, but they have a 'muffler' on the end which is about 4-5" diameter steel tubing.  I think a guy could drill holes in the outside, in a twist helix, like paintball barrels, and use perhaps an oxy/acetylene boost.  Or maybe just compressed oxy.  stuff the kitty down the pipe, tamp down with a wad of Bounty, fill the chamber with gas and ignite!!  A cat projectile would require at least 5 feet of barrel for any accuracy.


JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:49:43 (ZULU) 


Speakin' of dog problems (not PD's)... I lived in Pennsylvinia in the 70s, near a resort area.  Every year, the New Yawkers would rent cabins for the summer, and get their kids a "Puppy" to keep them company.  Come Labor day, they'd load everything up for the trip back to the city... except for the dog, which they left on the side of the road.

By mid October, the dogs had packed up, and were damn wild (and mean)... and everybody was encouraged to SOS (Shoot On Sight), as they would attack little kids.

I would hunt them with a few friends, and I carried a full stock, spoon handled .270 Mauser, loaded with Sierra 90gr hollow points, at 3,600fps... damn bullets would nearly cut a 25 pound dog in half.

You got bad dogs on the reservation??? I'll bring the .270 Mauser (still got it :).


CatShooter <>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 04:13:40 (ZULU) 

A couple of more questions:

1) Have any of you tried the Austrian Hertenburger (sp?) ammo?  How is it?

2) Do any of you know about the National Guard's Sniper program?  Where could I find out more about it?



Magnus <>
Tempe, Arizona, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 05:11:26 (ZULU) 


>Now take this picture, and think base balls... the kind of surface a base ball has (in terms of roughness) will determine the amount of change of course the ball will take on a curve ball pitch.  When the curve ball got popular in base ball, the association had to standarize the ball surface in order to make it fair, and an umpire will pull a ball from the game, if the surface gets roughed up, because it will curve more with a rougher surface...<

Guess what?  You just described the...  <GASP> MAGNUS EFFECT!!


But it is still a great write-up :-)

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 07:12:22 (ZULU) 

Ok Lito,now I get the picture,for a while I had an image of a big guy cackling fienishly as he snap froze a cat into an aerodynamic posture and stuffed it into a pvc orange gun charged with acetylene or perhaps some of yer sisters hairspray and launchin it at the fat ladys roof only to have the damn cori wtf effect cause the cat to land in a good neighbors yard:)

Wonder if I could compute the info and dail it into my eye to hit bird at 200m with my sling shot.

Nah... I think Ill just build a belt fed bb gun:)



Gavan Willis <>
bourbon & bed time, downunder, . - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 08:02:53 (ZULU) 

JR thanks for taking a personal interest, I will mail you, didn't mean to knock HS products, the stock is bullet proof, any equipment I own gets a rough ride, I wasn't bothered about a bit of flakey paint and a rubbed off finnish, but as I'm rebuilding the rifle; I want it to look pretty, at least for a couple of weeks !!

Hirtenberger ammunition, its quite popular in Germany, I have only used the hunting stuff, but it seems to be accurate,(if the rifle likes it) consistent, I would put it on a level with Norma and Lapua, I am trying to get my hands on some 308 sub sonic fron Hirtenbereger, its proving difficult, regards to all, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 11:58:56 (ZULU) 


Interesting story Jim, but I think you are selling its value a bit short.  Rather than just being of historical value, your story illustrates the concept of deception and ambush, which will never go out of style, especially for snipers.  That is the way snipers are supposed to work.

Alot of tactics from WWII or earlier really havent changed that much.

Thanks for a good piece of history.

MOUNTAINS (or lack thereof):

Thank you for that piece of info.  For some reason, I had picturued your country as mountainous.

(you still make great vodka regardless!)

Jefe <>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 12:01:05 (ZULU) 


Well, yeah... but I never explain somfin by throwing out a name or a word.

"Why do you have to step on the gas when going around a fast curve, instead of stepping on the breaks?"

"Because of the Montgolfier effect!".

... that doesn't answer or 'splain anything.  It just winds up having guys throw around words that sound impressive, but that they don't understand.

Got into one here on SC with someone that you all know, about whether bullets fall point down like an arrow (they DON'T), or they fall to the ground with their axis still pointing at the same angle that they had when were fired upwards from the barrel (they DO)... and he threw words around that he didn't understand, trying to get ground... when I gave him a three page 'splaination on what was happining, he finely understood it.

Anyway... what else am I going to write about... I can't write about cams anymore, and now I can't write about MK4 rings and MK4 bases either... my world is getting smaller and smaller...

... I'm gonna go shoot some Cats!


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 12:55:23 (ZULU) 


Nice description of your country, But you forgot the Babes!!!!!


Bounty Wadding??

 A Horrible Fire risk on the Great Plains? (insert Whine & trembling handwringing here).

What is needed for this project is a $100,000,000 research grant from Uncle Sugar.

Title: "Katzenboomer 2002 - Research Viability of Organic Anti-Armour Projectile & Interdiction" (Alternate ready materials using a porcine projectile in certain unfriendly areas of the middle east.)

 Some sort of non-ecologocal damaging wadding along the lines of a oversized shotgun wad or SABOT, possibly either coated or impregnated with Barnes proprietary coating, would be a viable start.

 Naturally, Varget would be a good start for propellant, but I can see a air fuel propellant becoming the wave of the future.

Have a nice end to your Holiday weekend folks.

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 13:08:50 (ZULU) 

Gav and Lito, you guys were kidding?

Man that tabby's going to have the butt at me when I finally let him outta the tumbler (three hours with a pound of BBs and a tablespoonful of moly...)

Sinister Dave <>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:13:33 (ZULU) 


If you think the cat is gonna be pissed off, just wait 'til Mary puts her favorite white dress in the drier, with all that moly...

... then you're REALLY gonna see the definition of "PISSED OFF!"

You got a cot in the basement???


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:44:22 (ZULU) 

JR: "I guess one other reason would be if you used such an excessive twist at a high velocity without stripping the bullet..."

I would imagine that there is also a RPM limit after the bullet leaves the pipe.  Spin too fast, and it'll deform - grow fat in the middle, or shed the jacket altogether like retreads flying off a semi tire.  Copper and lead aren't the strongest of metals.  BTW, the centrifugal force created by the Earth's rotation actually deforms Earth, making it wider at the equator than it is tall from pole to pole by about 26 miles.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:57:38 (ZULU) 


>"Spin too fast, and it'll deform - grow fat in the middle, or shed the jacket altogether like retreads flying off a semi tire."

What actually happens, is the jacket splits along the weak points made by the cuts on the jacket walls by the rifling... this is easy to see.

Shoot a Hornady "SX" out of a 9" or 7" twist barrel, with ANY .22 centerfire, and you will see a quick streak of "smoke" going out to the target.  People used to think this was lead melting off the nose of the bullet (another of the famous wives tails)... but it was the jacket splitting along the rifling marks, because the SX series bullets used jackets that were 0.009" thick, whereas the normal jacket thickness for .22 centerfire jackets is 0.018".


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 15:10:34 (ZULU)

This site says they have a real USMC Unertl for sale.

SSG Adam G. Scott <>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 15:55:28 (ZULU) 


This is the long WWII Unertl with external adjustable mounts, that went on the '03A4 Springfields, and later, on the Winchester Heavy Barreled sniper rigs used in early Viet Nam... not the current USMC Unertl.


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:01:37 (ZULU) 

Thanks 'lito. Did he say by chance how much he was asking. I have an old '03a4 at the smith right now. Might try to rig it up...

SSG Adam G. Scott <>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:08:17 (ZULU) 


No he didn't... you gotta ask.

I've seen these on eBay, and they go for from $1,800 to $2,300... only because of the "USMC" stamp on the side.

These are standard Unertl 1.25", 8x target scopes, and you can find a 1.25" Unertl (of any power) on eBay or elsewere for around $300 to $400 in CREAM PUFF condx... if you can live without the "USMC" stamp!


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:39:35 (ZULU) 

Can anybody provide me with info on chrome lined barrels VS standard cm barrels.I am contemplating purchasing either a FN police sniper(308) or a Rem.700 pss(308)What can I expect for accuracy from both rifles given the exact same conditions.I know that the FN will be easier to clean and it will have a longer barrel life(due to chromed barrel) but what else can I expect from these rifles.Does anyone have any experience with these rifles.Which would be the most accurate.Thanks Semper Fidelis

Fred Flammini <>
Brockton, MA, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 17:27:09 (ZULU) 


I dont know any fancy words but if i remember my highschool physiks

the way objects fall has to do with where the center of gravity is?On arows is forward of midpoint,bullets rear of midpoint?Also there is the Law about objects thrown at a direction wana keep going the same direction.You turn the wheels left the car still wana go staight,you hit the throtle the rear wheels spin faster than the frond and move to the right(wana go straihgt) and they point the car to the left,If you hit the brakes you will end up in the ditch.The problem with that is your survival instict tells you to do the oposite of what you must do.On amotorcircle is trickier  if you wana go left you have to turn(inicialy)right.Also if you already lean in a turn and hit the frond brakes the bike is not gona fall its gona come up.Same laws of physics.

Did ipass the exam?

how you guys check the spelling on the posts??

Jim <>
marathon, fl, usa - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 18:31:54 (ZULU) 


There is a link to Varmint Al's webpage in the hot links section here. He does a pretty interesting analysis of the stresses that bullets are subjected to at various twist rates and muzzle velocities. It makes me think that as muzzle velocities go up, twist rates can slow down. I suspect that this has something to do with Sierra's recommendation of a 1 in 13" twist for the .30 cal 155 Palma bullet, since most of the palma guys are pushing these around 3000 fps out of 30-32" barrels, but that's only my opinion, for what its worth.

Pat T

Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:11:04 (ZULU) 

Hey JR, I treid to mail you, but it came back, can you try to mail me please so I can reply.

I shot my heym barreled remmy 700 today, using Hornady 168gr bthp match fodder , what a performer, happiness is one ragged hole.

Can any of you guys tell me how much you would pay for a box of this Hornady 168 gr stuff in the US, apparently it costs $34 ( 20 rds) a box here, how does that compare.. thanks Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:32:40 (ZULU) 

Marathon Jim...

"Did ipass the exam?"


"how you guys check the spelling on the posts??"

MARIUS... Spell checker needed here ;)

Pat T...

The reason that the 155 Palma can use a 13" twist, is because it is shorter than the 168s.

But you're also correct... bullets that are marginal at 2500fps, will be stable at 3000.


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:34:35 (ZULU) 

Electronic Gizzies...

Not in the know, but wont they all go belly up when EMPs are used? Heck, anyone with a radioshack nearby can make em, not to mention BIG linear amp with direction sending ant. Do they make perfect sheilding?

I like my mil dots and they like me.

Painting Sticks:

Got the final story into M for review. It's basic, and all are welcome to add to it.

just enjoying my extra day off and remembering those that went before me to allow me what I have today...buk

buk <>
AbeautifulDayIn, Arkansas, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 22:01:42 (ZULU) 


Ok PeteR, I concede that Bounty may not work out well.  Never mind my second choice.  Cat-sabot??  Ever see those wax-dippers they have in machine shops to protect the tooling?  That might be kinda mean, it's sorta hot.  A Meowser gun.

Pat T:

If you subscribe to the higher velocity/slower twist rate, then you would be agreeing that RPM's coincide with bullet stability.  Anyway, 155's are short and fat, hence the 13 twist.  Would still go with a minimum of 12 if I had a choice.

In the olden days, ha, most of the 'magnums' were chambered with slower twist barrels.  Check out the back of an old Speer book, all the Weatherby's used slower twist barrels than their 'non-magnum' counterparts.  I've seen 300 WBy's issued with 14 twist barrels.  BUT, a lot of their bullets were shorter and more blunt than we use today.  Even so, many of the manufacturers based their twist rates on existing twist rates with muzzle velocity in mind.


I do have one question I can't seem to answer.  Why would the Mauser barrels use such deep grooves, and continue to do so, and maintain fairly good accuracy.  6.5 Swede, 7 mouser, both run groove depths around .001" over normal 6.5's and 7mm's, yet stay fairly close on bore diameters.  Is this for, hah, lastability??  Do they run different diameter bullets across the pond?  Damned socialist Euro's.....

Back to the grind tomorrow, folks.  Hmmmph.....


JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 22:37:34 (ZULU) 


I donno, but them Mouse riffles sure shoot well.


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 23:01:58 (ZULU) 

Years ago, a tactical scope called an ART IV was available, I think from Springfield.  It seemed to me to be the ultimate tactical scope, at least in concept (I've never seen one).  As I recall, this scope linked the variable power adjustment with a BDC, thus alleviating the shooter from range estimation.  If I understand the Mildot system correctly, the shooter is still required to perform a calculation in the field to estimate range.

Does anyone have any experience with the ART IV?  There was obviously something less than desirable about this scope or it would still be available.  Thanks in advance.

Tom Nordberg <>
Boise, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:02:34 (ZULU) 

Years ago, a tactical scope called an ART IV was available, I think from Springfield.  It seemed to me to be the ultimate tactical scope, at least in concept (I've never seen one).  As I recall, this scope linked the variable power adjustment with a BDC, thus alleviating the shooter from range estimation.  If I understand the Mildot system correctly, the shooter is still required to perform a calculation in the field to estimate range.

Does anyone have any experience with the ART IV?  There was obviously something less than desirable about this scope or it would still be available.  Thanks in advance.

Tom Nordberg <>
Boise, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:04:40 (ZULU) 

Tom Nordberg...

The scope you are refering to is the "Leatherwood" ART (Automatic Ranging Telescope)...

It was based on the Redfield 3x9 scope.  They put a cammed ring around the zoom ring, and this cam rode on a mount that was pivoted in front, so when the cam was turned, the back of the scope was lifted up.

They were still made up to a few years ago (somewhere??), and show up on eBay, and SGN from time to time, and cost about $300 to $400-ish bucks when new...

I'll tell you this, and every shooter that has used one will back me up on it... it is a grand, spanking POS!

The mount was very fragile, the reference was a vertical space that is 18" high (very hard to find an 18" high target except a deer's chest), and the cam was awkward to use in the shooting position.

There are a dozen scopes that are more betterer...


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:45:39 (ZULU) 

Cat Shooter (Lito) - Agree 100% with your assessment of the POS ART I, II IV, or anyother incarnation of that crap.  Used them with great difficulty for too many years.  One thing, not to give you much trouble but I hardly ever catch you in an error!!!

The ART I measured 30 inches from top stadia to bottom and 15 inches from top or bottom stadia to reticule center.  That was the distance of top of head to belt line.  The 18 inches you refer to was the Redfield 3x9 that was originally used on the Rem 700 Sniper from the late 60s to early 70s, I used them too. They worked better than the ARTs and there were really a surprising number of things you could use to get the 18 inches.   The two lines were high in the field of view, measured form head to "nipple line" and a paddle came out and gave your range from 100 to 600.  You then had to hold over or under according to the range as you zeroed your scope at 500 meters or yards.  The holds were waist for 100 and 400, groin for 200 and 300, and top of head for 600.  While it was a center punch for 500.  :-)

The ART II/ IV had a heavy bar for the reticule at the left right and bottom.  This heavy bar was equal to 1 meter, top of head to groin.  When cammed correctly the shooter was supposed to cam, center cross hairs, hold for wind, fire.  None of these scopes allowed for easy manipulation of the windage knob, thus holds were mandantory, which they still are under normal combat conditions.

DAAAAMMMMM, caught him in a goof!!!!!

Made my day!  I can go to bed happy.  I am going to really have fun with my students tomorrow!

Hold Hard Guys.

Rick Smiling for awhile!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 01:21:39 (ZULU) 

Jeez rick-ster...

you never cut me no rhythm...

You're right on the early ones (you're older than me HA!, and I'm older than rocks... so you're in real trouble! Double HA!).

The only one I actually saw enuff to play with, was one of the ones that came back about 10 years ago, when Leatherwood "re-organised", and was trying to come back (to what???), and they were making them out of current production Redfield 3x9... (which were the basis of the early ones, without the ranging bar).


Going to the range tomorrow... five new sticks to shoot


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 02:10:18 (ZULU) 

I'm packin' up the Jungle Truck so I can get out of here early... and I'll leave youz bumbs with this thought from a conversation I had today with a fellow Rosterfairian...

"There are many things we remember in life... our "first time" with a girl, our first job...

... but try this.

There was a day, long ago, when we had a perfect day... the weather was about 70 degrees out, and the humididy was maybe 40%... I got to sit under a big tree on a hill, with a brown bag lunch, and a big cooler of lemonaid, and a good friend.  We had a couple of 15 pound varmint riffles, and sat talking, laughing, and overlooking 10 acres of fresh cut alfalfa...

... it don't get much better than that!

nite, nite...


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:05:43 (ZULU) 


Lito's just trying to make us all jealous with that "lunch, lemonade(Lynchburg?), 15 Varmint Rifle, good friend, and fresh cut alfalfa" thing.

Try my day today: Up at 0500. Cup of fresh coffee, hunting partner arrives to go scouting for deer season at 0545. 0600 arrive jumping off point. One mile later drop into an area we think has game, but no SANE person would go...we did(that should remove all doubt). Once we worked our way into the bottoms we found (in a 1 mile stretch)...fresh bull elk sign, blacktail deer "highways", three elk wallows, fresh bear tracks/sign, jumped 10 mallards off a little marshy depression. Went to were it opened up and found a proper spot were we had 300 degree visibility on the high ground and could shoot out to 350 yards or so...we has found our hunting "Mecca" for the season. God help us if we shoot anything in there 'cuz it's gonna have to come out of the bottoms and back to the truck on our back...about two miles.

Saw two ruffed grouse on the way back to the truck.

All of this only four miles from my back porch in the beautiful coast mountains of Oregon. The 600 yard range is only six miles the other way...:-)

Plus home fried chicken, mashed potatoes/gravey, and ears of corn for dinner.

'Lito, and you think YOU had a good day.

Please try not to hate me...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, Oregon, by gawd!, U.S. of A - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:29:14 (ZULU) 

Geez Wes,

You weren't north of Reedsport toward Loon Lake were ya?

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:40:48 (ZULU) 

Jr -

I don't know about the 7mm's, but I seem to recall reading somewhere years ago that the european 6.5 bullets measured .266 vs. .264 for american made 6.5's. I just miked some WWII 6.5 Carcano at .266, and some 20 year old Norma 6.5 Carcano at .264. I have some 108 gr 6.5 Lapua Scenars that I bought to try in the .260 that just miked .264, so maybe there is something to the story.

Pat T

Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:47:09 (ZULU) 

Make that .266 vs. .264

Pat T

who needs to learn to proof read

Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:49:17 (ZULU) 

Doggone Marius -

That edit post thingie works pretty slick. Good work on the site. Thanks.

Pat T

Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:54:17 (ZULU) 

Damn, but some of you boys are smart.  You mean to tell me my bullet's been doin' ALL THAT all these years and I didn't even know ?  And I thought B.R.A.S.S. covered it all.  Sniper my ass.

LITO:  How's the weather your way.  Rainin' like hell here in S.E. TX for two weeks.  Enough is enough.  Fixin' to start buildin' me an ark.

Hope ya'll had a good weekend.


brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 13:54:32 (ZULU) 

Sinister Dave, have to agree with you on the fancy electronics.  I spend my days surrounded by multi million dollars systems that always fail when you need them.  I see a huge hill you carry all this majic up and when you get there it dies, or you do on the trek.  I like the simple approach to shooting.  Most the really good opperational snipers I know say just close the distance and shoot it.  Shooting past 1000 yards starts to take on a whole new aspect and I wonder if many of the things we are attempting would not be better served by crew served weapons?

Pablito, do you Molly Coat the Cats?


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 15:51:33 (ZULU) 

Morning Hawgs...

   Just catching up on the roster and noticed some of the comments on electronics. I was talking to one of the Special Forces guys at the shoot in Wyoming and he said something that I thought would probably fit here. The cry of the old Army was, "We need more ammo, bring ammo". The cry of the new Army is, "We need more batteries, bring  batteries"!!

  I have to agree with Dave also, you take all the fancy stuff away or it breaks down, without good shooting skills and you have nothing. However if you have someone with the skill to call their own wind and data you still have a very dangrous weapon out there.

Pat <>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 16:43:29 (ZULU) 


The single most decisive factor in winning life and death "games" is having the right resources (by resources, I mean people) at the right place at the right time...

The individual tactics employed by a sniper vs an armored unit seem inconsequential when you consider that the sniper could my opinion, should, be a key player in the fine maneuver of resources to point on an enemy...

follow-on comments/questions.

-How is this skill (I'll go so far as to call it an "art") trained in sniper programs in place today?

-wargaming is an effective tool for training this long as the board is maintained by an judge who seeks to eliminate "flaws" inherent in every game, which will be exploited to "win" even if the consequence is a non-realistic encounter.

-the opportunity to exercise and refine this skill... with real lives on the line exists in many communities (in the US) in the form of a volunteer emergency service...this opportunity is almost never exploited by the sharpest minds with the most to gain from the experience....


I challenge you.... either accept what I have to say and improve yourself by exploiting the learning opportunities I have identified....


prove me wrong


fail to grow

also- the offer stands...any medical situation... I will attempt to answer with the correct approach and treatment. Email if you prefer, I like the challenge....

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 18:19:55 (ZULU) 

Guys, over the years I have seen and tried all types of gadgets, gizmos and what nots.  Electronic and otherwise.  I have a trunk full of ghillies, and all manner of crap from tree steps to wire cutters  that I MAY EVENTUALLY need on a callout.  More and more, I rely on a well built rifle, good clothing and a small pack that will accomodate a camelback. I can go for days with that cut down kit. Two electric items that are indispensable is communications equipment/flashlights and batteries for same.  The rest is just stuff you have to pack.  If you have to run or displace with all that crap, you look and sound like Fred Sanford's junk truck going down the road with crap spilling out every damn where.  K.I.S.S.


brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 18:29:31 (ZULU) 

Ref: Equipment Dichotomy

either: "Beware the man who owns only one rifle......."

    or: "Tiger Woods doesn't play with just one club....."

either: "Rely on only time proven gear...."

    or: "Exploit emerging technology as a force multiplier...."

either: "Travel light and freeze at night...."

    or: "Better to have it and not need it than...."

I could go on but you get the drift.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 19:33:16 (ZULU) 

ANDY'S DAD:  What all do you carry when you deploy (average, everyday deployment) that will accomodate your needs as a sniper most of the time ?

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 19:41:28 (ZULU) 

Hey guys, want to reload some 300 ultra mag, but the trimmer i currently use (forester..standard size) is more of a pain b/c of the length of the cases you/i have to take the end off and insert the case screw it back on and then start trimming this not only hurts consistency but is a real pain the posterior when it comes time to trim a lot of cases. Soooooo any suggestions on a longer trimmer or better way to go about this.         thanx,marc

marc <>
where's winter, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:01:42 (ZULU) 

I know many of you are shooting the Black Hills ammo. Question is from a 26" barrel,using the 175's, what kind of fps are you getting over the chrony?? Just chrony'd some with an average of 2577fps for 10 rounds. This sure seems slow but?????


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:10:48 (ZULU) 

Forester Trimmer Issue:

If you are unscrewing the case holder collet of the trimmer to fit the longer case of an Ultra Mag and simply screwing it back in with the case in place it won't affect the trim accuracy.  The collet seats against the inside of the holder and that is not changing so case lengths will be the same.

Forester does sell longer bases for the trimmer.  It would be a simple matter of mounting your existing hardware to the longer base.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:27:21 (ZULU) 


1.  How do snipers train and prepare.  Read the "Sniper FTX Summary

    listed in the training section.  That gives the absolute bare

    bones of it and it is far more complex.

    As far as the armor issue, check the Field Manual if you have

    any doubts about the effectiveness of sniper employment doctrine

    on this issue.  The Army needs to work on training its officer

    corp on employment of supporting arms better, but snipers are

   becoming more and more accepted as an asset and supporting


    I think the Marines are about 10 years ahead of us in sniping

    and I base that on the fact they had an FM and formal School well

    ahead of the Army and have traditionally valued marksmanship

   skills in all their men.  The Army should really adopt more of

    the USMC standards as a whole, particullary since it has gotten

    smaller.  Having said that, I was in very good units and have a

   very good experience and high degree of respect for the majority

    of my leaders while I was in.   (Except in a mech unit in Germany,

    where the majority of the unit should have been summarily


2.  Medical training available in local communities.  Yep, sure is,

    and the military puts doctors in inner cities to help out and

    get hands on training for gunshot wounds etc.

    Also, the Army has a 10 day course, called the "Combat Lifesaver

    Course." This covers a number of general first aid tasks

   ranging from evaluating a casualty and treating them, to triage

    and IV therapy.  The goal of this course is to have at least

    2 CLSs per squad (about 10 guys) to help the medic out (1 medic

    per 30 men roughly).  The CLSs take care of the initial lifesaving

    steps (including sucking chest woulds, etc., not just real basic

    stuff), transport the WIA to a Casualty Collection Point, assist

   triage and follow up and MEDEVAC.  IVs are an important part,

   since due to the nature of the mission, their are big issues with

    Hypovolemic and septic shock which go along with combat wounds.

   They also help out with heat casualties and hangovers.

    Bearing that in mind, re-read the FTX Summary.  The final exam for

    this course (Run by the Battalion Surgeon, PA and Medics) is

    a combat patrol where several members are given fake wounds of

   varying types under their uniforms.  The patrol eventually makes

   contact and while the mock battle goes on (squad or platoon size)

    and they DO try to overun your position etc., the med rep signals

    someone with a wound to drop and the student is called to treat

   them and graded by very specific standards.

    If the OPFOR is doing well, then there are more casualties for

   the student to deal with, even to the point where they are

   overwhelmed by numbers.  Then they get graded on triage and


    It is an excellent program.

3.  Yes Virginia, I am a bandwidth hog!

Jefe <>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:00:51 (ZULU) 


Jim, I think you are confused about what the term means (in the military anyways).

Wargaming is not a force on force excercise.  That is called an FTX or other names.

Wargaming simply means when during the planning process, you develop possible courses of action to accomplish the mission.  Then you either place yourself in the enemies shoes and guess at his most likely moves and adjust your plan accordingly.  OR, you have another person take the enemy side and play devils advocate.

So there are no nuetral judges.  There is the leader of the mission and it is his call and his responsibility at the end of the day.

As far as FTXs, there are neutral judges.  They are called MILES systems and are similar to laser tag.  While they have their shortcomings (leaves stop lasers) there are a number of trained Öbserver/Controllers who move with each element and make necessary adjustments.  For example, if a unit is spotted by the OPFOR and they call in a Fire Mission on the radio, the OC will throw some artillery simulators.  If the unit reacts the way they are supposed to immediately, they might get away with the OC only "killing"a few of them.  If not, then he will adjust accordingly.

All  in all, the training is very good to outfuckingstanding.  Slogans like "More Sweat in Peacetime, Less Blood in Combat"adorn

barracks walls everywhere and alot of effort goes into making the training as tough and realistic as possible.

The National Training Center, Joint Readiness Training Center and other programs are some of the best training programs in any military in the world.  There is also a major emphasis put on the junior leader and initiative which is unique and puts our military ahead of most others.

Of course when most of our combat units are keeping babysitting shitheads all over the world to stop them from slaughtering eachother, they dont get to train much (Oh yeah, training center in Germany for Peacekeeping duty, its very good from what I hear).

So, despite budget cuts, forced political correctness etc., our military training is very, very good.

Jefe <>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:14:39 (ZULU) 

Reminds me of a story from an Observer/Controller buddy of mine at the Joint Readiness Training Center.

Each soldier is issued a sealed brown envelope before going into the "Exercise Box" (the training area).  When your MILES system starts beeping you reach into your pocket, and the pre-prepped card says something like:

"You are a multiple bullet wound casualty.  You have no broken bones, but are in extreme pain and are bleeding.  you will bleed out in 15 minutes if not treated for bleeding and shock.  You require evacuation within 12 hours."  The second card is for the first responder (your battle buddy, Combat Life-Saver, Medic, EMT, etc., and goes over the wounds from the responder's point of view.

A female soldier's MILES went off and she looked at it quizzically, then handed the card to the Lieutenant, saying "Sir, this is yours."

"Multiple shrapnel wounds.  Eye injury and lacerations.  Traumatic amputation of foot and penis."

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:30:59 (ZULU) 

Jefe and Sinister Dave,

You guys bring back memories.  Being in "The Box" in Hohenfelds, GE my first time was an EYE opener.  6 hours into the box,  our incoming Duece and half got hit by an enemy RPG..(6-502nd Inf then, only two trucks in the company that weren't 81mm mortor assets)  There goes our sleeping bags, duffles and ONLY chow not in the ruck until the PEHA processes the loss of equpiment, chow and personnel.

So, now our CO need to figure out the truck isn't here, find out why, order a new one with said equipment and chow, THEN it has to be processed through the PEHA and get out two us. All the while we're carryin' an with our missions, with no replacement ammo or gear 'cept LBE/Rilfe...

As I have a way of makin' a long story long,,,, That kind of training reinforces that if the SHTF we'd be without gear and chow at LEAST 4 days, in Germany, in November...(took less time to get the pack in the CO's HMMWV changed)

Logistics are key to every aspect of our lives in the field, and LOTS of people don't think of that stuff.  They were too busy trying to get "dead eye" Pete qualified onto the range...or zeroing MILES...

We can spend ALL the time in the world learning how and when to take the shot, but if ya ain't got the rounds.....

I'd have to agree, JRTC in Polk, in March was definatly gooood training. Their OPFOR was outstanding...


Chris <>
Can feel fall settin in, down to the midd 80's :-), Midd-Tenn, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 23:44:05 (ZULU) 

Jefe - Agree on the fact that most officers have not the foggiest on sniper employment or deployment.  I gave an Officer's Professional Development class to the 82nd in the 80s on that very subject.  In the class I give at SOTIC on considerations for sniping, the first weakness I list is the Commander's lack of imagination and knowledge.  However, I task them as the sniper and sniper coordinator to remedy that problem.

War Gaming is very important part of planning and must be done brutally and honestly.  If I come up with a plan and my subordinates do not devils advocate it to death then I will be disappointed.  At the same token I am just as upset when the next up takes it as a personal affront when you war game their plan.  The players must see the possible weaknesses and holes in their planning and coordination.  While all plans go in the crapper once on the ground, it is better to have fall back posiitons then to plan for the best and be horribly surprised.  I would rather plan on the worst and be pleasantly surprised.  Unfortunately, I have been in both situations and horribly surprised sucks with a hospital stay.

Jim - Be careful thinking that the sniper should be in all situations.  There are a number of weaknesses that the sniper has that he can not overcome.  One of those weaknesses is that he can not be decisively engaged and thus can not hold ground.  He can not engage a target that is either too far or too near.  He must be employed and deployed according to his weaknesses, training and available equipment.  This makes the sniper an asset that is valuable under certain circumstances but he not the answer to all things and circumstances.  Thus he is not a key player only another asset to be exploited when the time comes.  This is not an attempt to prove you wrong only an attempt to expand your thought process on this subject.

Sinister - When you stopping back by the team room for giggles.  Drue got his class date for WOC school today.  Man is he in for a "fun time"! :-)

If it runs by battery then it will fail at the absolute worse time.  Just one of theose Mr. Murphy facts.

Hold hard guys!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:08:04 (ZULU) 

Jimbo the Doc:  despite what a lot of units do, some of my best door-kickers and long-gunners (and guys who are trained at both) have been SF Medics.  Commanders who only put the guy with the M-5 bag in the rear are often the ones who find out when you need a medic, you usually need him NOW!  (Damn, howza little hole like that bleed so much?)

Then, start complicating the game by adding more stuff to the mix (a la DEA-style meth lab takedowns in full MOPP-4, in the dark, in the tropics).

At the base, elementary level it's still 5-paragraph fire and maneuver.  Just a little harder.

A fit, educated (not book-learnin', but the been there-done that, dirty-sweaty-tired field training and live-fire and occasional two-way shooting gallery school of hard knocks) soldier knows what his body is capable of, but especially what his mind and fighting spirit are capable of (remember the Black Knight scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail?  Some guys don't know when to quit, because it's not in their vocabulary).

A simple thing I once read made tremendous sense when applied to an individual soldier in the heat of combat.  The body can sustain an incredible amount of punishment --  traumatic amputation, burns, broken bones, missile wounds, sucking chest wounds, blood loss, etc. -- just not all at once, or if the soldier knows what his damages are and can still operate (because he can prevent or control his body before it goes into shock, or he takes whatever action he needs to before succumbing to shock) there are legions of records where some make the supreme sacrifice before earning a posthumous Blue Max or Victoria Cross.

Yeah, medics are pretty damned important, and there usually ain't enough to go around.

Sinister Dave <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:34:01 (ZULU) 

I just ordered a barreled action from Howa/LSI. I paid about $270.00. I am going to order a tactical style laminated stock from Elk Ridge, it will run about another $200.00. I plan on pillar bedding it with steel bed from Brownell's. Is there anyone out there who has dealt with the Howa rifles? If so did I make a pretty good move or not?

Robert French <>
va, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:57:14 (ZULU) 

Sarge, I use Black Hills almost exclusivly.  My SSG PII gets 2670, my Rem 700 runs 2660.  My shooting partner has a 20" tube on his 700 and he's getting 2580 ( so much for the 100 fps per inch theory ).  It's good enough that I can't blame a miss on the ammo, it's my fault for sure.

Cory Trapp <>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 02:37:08 (ZULU) 

Hey guys thanks for the help on the case trimmer issue, forester does make a long base which i didnt see before, however the standard trimmer has a built in 1/2 inch lengthing option. This is achieved by moving each side of the hardware out a 1/4 inch, man guess this means i need to be thinkin about buying more powder since i'll be loading a lot more of the big long thick cases, guess it could be worse (50 cal) but hey its all good n fun......keep the shots long and groups tight.

marc <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 03:15:15 (ZULU) 

One of youz guys sent me an e-mail today asking about doing Teflon on your stick... in the midst of sorting all the e-mail from all those wanton women, dying to have their way with my innocence, I lost the e-mail.

So here... you got questions, e-mail me again, (I promise I won't loose it)

I used a iron blueing tank, with cover that I bought from brownells... drilled two circles of 1/4" holes (6 each) to match the two front burners on the kitchen stove (I can do that.. I'm divorced ;)

The I drilled one 1/4" hole in the middle of each end, for rods to support the bbld action... and one 1/4" hole in the top, to insert a candy thermometer.

The cans of Teflon say shake for a minute or two... forgetaboutit!!! Shake them suckers about 20 minutes or more, or they will clog with clumps of moly!


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 04:12:01 (ZULU) 

Does anyone out there have a manual/instruction booklet on the Russian PU scope?

Thanks, Tim

Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 04:47:41 (ZULU) 

Brian wrote, &#8220;ANDY'S DAD: What all do you carry when you deploy (average, everyday deployment) that will accommodate your needs as a sniper most of the time?&#8221;

As a certified has-been I must answer as if your question were hypothetical.

The standard waffle answer to such a question would be, &#8220;It depends.&#8221;

As we all know the gear will depend upon, Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Weather, etc.  But here is how I organize my basic equipment;

Basic Ensemble:

   O.D. Polypropylene underwear

   O.D. Wool blend boot socks

   Combat frame eyeglasses

   Casio Digital Watch

   Woodland Rip-Stop BDUs

   Woodland Boonie Hat

   Danner Arcadia Boots (Gortex)

   O.D. Nomex flight gloves

   Black Nylon Instructor Belt

   O.D. Elastic suspenders

   PDW, .45 Gov&#8217;t in thigh holster w/spare magazine

   Kabar knife in kydex sheath on left thigh

   Silva Ranger compass with lanyard


   Woodland drag bag

        M40A1 w/M3LR, Harris bipod & Mike&#8217;s Sling

  O.D. nylon stock pack

    Kestral wind meter

    Red LED mini light

    Laminated wind data card

    Ear plugs

    5 rounds , Match Ammunition (in elastic loops)

 Log Book w/mechanical pencil

        Mil-Dot Master analog computer

        Shooting sticks (graphite) buffalo hunter type

        Woodland nylon butt sack

        Leupold 25X spotting scope w/mil-dots & mini tripod

        9 rounds, Match Ammunition (in elastic loops)

L.W. Support Module:

 Camelback Mule, Woodland nylon w/burlap garnish

 90 ounces, potable water

 PUR Scout water purifier

 Insect Repellant

 Camouflage Face Paint

 Mini Mag Flashlight w/red lens & lanyard

 10 rounds, Match Ammunition (in stripper clips)

 2 spare AA batteries

 3 Grainola Bars

 6 Slim Jims

H.W. Support Module:

 ALICE Large w/frame modified by Tactical Tailor

In the interest of conserving bandwidth I&#8217;ll forego detailing the contents of the large ruck for now.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 12:07:47 (ZULU) 

Robert French..

   The Howas are good actions and if you need to know anything about them you can feel free to contact John Dustin at (970)884-0393. I met John a couple of years ago at a tactical shoot and he builds custom rifles using the Howa action and would be the man to talk to.

  I talked to him again in August at the D&L shoot and told him of all the intrest in the Howa actions on this sight and he told me I could refer any of you guys with questions to him. He's a very nice guy and knows Howas inside and out. He builds some nice looking rifles on the Howa actions. Hope this helps.

Pat <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:13:21 (ZULU) 


I get 2680 - 2695 from my 24" Factory Rem tube. The stuff gave MOA at 300 during the crono session, and I plan on using it as a control for comparison to 175 SMK reloads.

BTW - I "found" a 5 gallon bucket full of LC 67 Match brass, once fired in my basement. Do you guys think it is suitable for accuracy work?.....:-)

Hope this isn't a repeat, the first try didn't show up???

Steve <>
SOUTH WEST, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:24:47 (ZULU) 

Sarge, on velocity from different weapons.  Velocity is not a constant when you consider all the different bbls and chambers out there.  Because of chamber sizes, bore dimensions, twists and how well the whole thing seals, velocity will be different between several different weapons that appear to be physically the same.  I id a test with eight different sniper rifles:

1. PSS with 26"bbl  Federal Match 175  ten rounds average 2600  (New bbl)

2. PSS 26", 200 rounds, 2600 fps average

3. PSS 24", unlknow amount of rounds 2575 average

4. PSS 26", 2000 rounds, 2550 ave

5. Winchester 26" HVY, 1000 rds, 2650 ave.

6. Norcal Nighthawk 26" KxP bbl, 2700 fps ave.

7. GA Precision Rock 22" Mike Rock bbl, 2625 ave.

8. NorCal M40A3 with 26" KxP bbl 2670 fps.

I did a second test with a Accuracy International 28" bbl in 338 Lapua, built by GA Precision against an HS Precision 28" bbl 338 Lapua.  Thois was a testof how much powder it took to get the same velocity.  In the HS I needed 86 grains of RL22 to get 2800 fps out of a 300 grain Sierra.  In the GA Precision it only took 84 grains and 86 grains were way too much. Both shoot 1/2moa or better but the tighter bore and chamber dimensions of the GA Precision take less powder for the same velocity.  With handloads you can compensate but with factory you are at the mercy of the equipment.

This is one reason I never give load data at the upper end.  Goes weapon to weapon.

Sarge as you can see the better bbls tend to get more velocity.

Hope this helps


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:32:35 (ZULU) 

What I wrote and what I meant apparently did not synch on my last post...

Considering the way folks received my last post, I am AMAZED every response was constructive.... I am endlessly amazed by the genuine, unique cadre we have here...

Wargaming.. Jefe.. you are right, I did use the term incorrectly... what I was talking about is a computer "game" that let's you function as the eyes and ears of a small sized force (tactical management, small units)... and maneuver them against an opposing force of roughly equal capabilities... the "win" or "lose" outcome is determined by how well you move assets....I believe this to be the most potent use of a well trained hidden sniper with a bolt gun....I was not talking about "planning" at all.

Medics.. I have developed a fairly comprehensive understanding of how military medics are trained (some of it is similar to my training and some of it is better)... Unfortunately, I also have a tendency to assume you guys are reading with a context which you couldn't possibly have.... what I was talking about RE "training opportunities in your local volunteer organization" had nothing to do with field has to do with effectively managing and directing manpower of a "military or para-military bent" while under extreme duress...

When I direct a three to four victim motor vehicle accident on a major highway, where extrication, fire suppression and EMS must be coordinated, I employ and refine manpower management skills which I believe would work equally as well in a "gunfight between opposing military units" manage the gunfighters, not the victims...

Rick Boucher - "Be careful thinking that the sniper should be in all situations".... understood...

I have absolutely no military background or training... my opinions on this topic are based more on what a read here than on anything else...

For the purpose of constructive dialog, I have tried to put myself in the shoes of the "common grunt" that might be engaged... take for example Tony's BMP ambush link...

If you were picking equipment for your ten man team, would you choose the side that gets the 10 modern assault rifles, the armored vehicle, food, clothing and excellent support or would you take the pile of four old, shot out mausers, one unexploded arty shell, some wire and a det cap, and one RPG....

The answer is easy... but..

If I throw in that the "Mauser" team also gets to position half it's group to observe the enemy throughout the engagement (unarmed snipers w/ radios)...and they get to pre-position the other five men for a near perfect ambush point, with adequate time to setup...suddenly the decision switches sides... info and maneuver counter superior arms...

The skills I use to get my emergency vehicles on scene, deploy manpower, prioritize treatment and transport....these skills are very hard to refine and leave you very fast if you don't use them...

I advocate real life and death training for each and every person who would manage a small military unit into a meeting with the enemy...and I want to follow the direction of a forward deployed sniper looking right at the opposed to someone staring at a map three miles behind the forward units....

You can get this exposure through a local fire or EMS unit... you do not get it in an ER (too safe) or while driving a police cruiser (too alone)...I don't know if a MILES based mock battle is the same thing... genuine death and danger has a way of changing the rules....

Hope I'm not being too off the wall. - Jim

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:17:05 (ZULU) 

Jimbo, what's up boy ?  Hey bro, I don't know about the exposure the guys in police cruisers get in your AO but in my hood, they get plenty.  The other day in my unmarked Ford Taurus, I drove right through a damn gunfight between six gang bangers ON THE WAY TO FREAKING LUNCH !!!!  Bout pissed my pants.  Confiscated five pistols out of a barber shop and two off the street.  Nobody hit. Nobody saw nothing.  Typical.  We  usually get there most of the time before Fire or EMS.  Just how it works here.  All the death and danger you care to get into.  Getting shot at sucks !!!!!  Somalia, Port Arthur, LA or NY - really don't matter where the bullets come from.

Later bro, Brian

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:53:05 (ZULU) 

Jim, well done!

Ref: Wargaming

Years ago when the Earth was still cooling and I was a brand new Butter-Bar I would spend every spare minute playing a table top war game called "Dun Kempf".  This was done on a 5'X 10' terrain model with little toy tanks etc.  The game had a very strict set of rules and was quite involved.  Playing this game let me learn valuable lessons about the art of war.  Years later at Ft.Leavenworth I got to play larger more sophisticated "games".  The value of such activities must not be under rated.  I'm sure there must be PC based simulations today that would meet the needs of the small unit leader or sniper.  Besides the training value, these games can be a real hoot.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:58:45 (ZULU) 

Brain Sain.

You have misread me... I said the ER was safe and the police cruiser was a "solo mission"...

When was the last time you were called upon to coordinate a real time shoot out between twenty or so of your police brothers in separate cruisers, converging on a common location vs a well armed group of "bad guys"...throw in a air unit, maybe half dozen EMS rigs, etc... you get my point...this happens every once in a while, but certainly not on the order that a fire dept. will exercise it...

Police officers very often face danger ALONE because that's how the system works... firefighters face danger as a team and thus develop different skills...EMS workers face danger for their victims, as a team...SWAT, as a team, but not evolving in real time (you usually at least partially control the tempo) and not on equal terms (one against one), again, different.

I hope you see my point... I am not skilled at the type of people management you do on a daily basis but I can sure as hell see how it is necessary in your role...

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:11:38 (ZULU) 

James Gibbons <>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:18:46 (ZULU) 

I am a new poster and just getting set up for precision shooting.

I recently purchased a Remington PSS 700 in .308 and a Leupold 3.5-10x M3 scope.  I am considering using Badger Rings and a Leupold Mk4 mount (as I do not have access to a 1000 yard range on a regular basis so I thought it might be better to use the Leupold base).

I am hoping I might get opinions or information as to whether or not there is any reason not to use this combination.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated!


James Gibbons

James Gibbons <>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:22:34 (ZULU) 


Agree with you on the SEO/NCO remedy re: employment and training issues Rick and most definately acted on them, although the receptions ranged from labeling me a troublemaker know it all to being well received and lots of benefits coming from it.

One of my non ending recommendations for NCODP and ODP at the unit level, is for the supporting element leaders (and I mean ALL of them, AT, Mortars, Medics, Commo in addition to snipers) to present short blocks of instruction on how they can support/integrate into operations.  When they gave them at NCODP first, then refine the classes and present them at ODP.  Of course in an infantry unit, ODP means new LTs, so they generally learn something.  At the same time, the Os have something to offer from their training also at their skill level.

It works good for everybody and alot of learning goes on with all sides.  It also promotes mutual respect, better teamwork and communications and identifies what leaders have their heads up their asses and corrections made.

As far as the SEO goes, I think that putting a former Scout/Sniper NCO in the S2 shop as part of an INF BNs TO&E would do wonders for the unit.  I was very fortunate to have an outstanding S2 OIC AND NCOIC on active duty.  While they didnt know much about the field, I definately had their ear and they  listened to you based on credibility in the field alot more than rank.

Unless things have changed, (and god knows they have), I dont believe there is a formal slot of that nature in the S2 shop.  Lots of other benefits up and down the chain from this type of organization.

However, it would really  add to things to have a guy who knows the field, where MI types really dont (and I actually like MI).  Having a guy like that even helps when REMBASS or other elements are attached for support and certainly helps with training, employment and dissemination.

KEY ?:

Do you have any decent unclass course material on the subject?  Is DA  working in this direction?

Thanks in advance for the advice and time.

Jefe <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:40:15 (ZULU) 

Jim, no flame bro. No flame. I read you. Sorry if the printed word seemed caustic.  Sometimes we do coordinate our stuff.  When a new load of dope is coming in from Houston, we will hold over an entire shift of cops/SWAT/Narcs and coordinate one massive assault on the neighborhood where the drugs are being sold and distributed.  The tempo is set by how they react to a serious bunch of crime fightin' where they ain't used to it but you never know what will happen.  You know the gig, where there's dope - there's guns.  Thank God they can't shoot any better than they do.  We have to haul them away in school buses.  One night, we busted so many, the crack was laying in the gutters on the street.  Foot chases everywhere.  Dope and guns everywhere.  After it was all over, I walked along, kicking rocks of crack into the man hole grids.  An 80 some odd year old black man sat on the curb.  He had been sitting there with his bottle watching all the goings on around him.  I sat down with him and asked how he was.  He said to me " Son, we have too much freedom in this damn country ".  That has always stuck with me.


brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 17:59:44 (ZULU) 

I believe we do not have enough freedom in this country.


I like Heinlien's version of freedom and accountability in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"...

You are either part of a polite, courteous society or you are fertilizer...simple, elegant, effective.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:29:06 (ZULU) 

He said to me " Son, we have too much freedom in this damn country ".

He is wrong.

I think we have been here before.

Outta here.

Geoff M <>
USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:37:42 (ZULU) 

Ref: Heinlien

Andy and I watch "Starship Troopers" once a week. (for more than the shower scene)  I really enjoy Heinlien's outlook.  Generally our viewing is in a double feature with "Red Dawn".......

Ref: My good fortune

Earlier today a friend told me that a custom rifle I had built many years ago was on the rack at a local gunshop.  I had regretted trading it off for years.  Now it's in my truck.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:50:36 (ZULU) 


 The combination you speak of will work well for you. Leupold is at the bottom of the rung as far as quality compared to others but is still more than up to the task.

  The scope choice will be the main thing to consider. You should decide if you want to do precision shooting or tactical shooting. Tactical shooters opt more for the MOA scope compared to the quarter min. scopes.

  If your shooting on KD ranges you may want to stay with the quarter min. scopes for the finer adjustments. If you shoot UKD ranges you may want to go to the MOA scope. It will be up to you and what you want your rig to do. Good Luck!!

Pat <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:52:50 (ZULU) 


If you are willing to buy the Leupold Mark4 base you might as well buy the Badger tilted base instead. They can be bought from for almost the same price as the Leupold base. I think they take 115 USD ro something close to that.

So if you will pay 90-100 USD for the base anyway, buy the Badger. Reselling it in case you want to get rid of them is easier than the Leupold base.


Hexa <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 21:49:06 (ZULU) 


I'd have to agree with Hexa.  The Badger is a few dollars more, and IF and WHEN you do get to 1K, (and you'll make yourself go there eventually) you'll have the ability to dial up to it.  I don't think that's possible with the M3LR and a flat base.  Only requiremnt is a cheek pad, and you'll probably get one anyway...  Not to mention, the quality is second to NONE.. Just remember to shorten the front two screws :-)  IMHO, the Badgers are CHEAP insurance.


Chris <>
Can feel fall settin in, down to the midd 80's :-), Midd-Tenn, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 22:27:08 (ZULU) 

I've got a couple of questions. This is my first post, so don't yell at me.

What I have is a rem 700 sendaro, 300 win mag (no scope or rings, etc). I would like to put my leupold variXIII 3.5x10x40 LR M1 on this rifle. What the question is, if I get the badger rings and base (20 moa forward cant) will I be capable of adjusting the scope from 100yards to 1000yards ? Not that the rifle or myself can shoot a 1000yards, but I would like to know I could adjust out that far. I know this will work with 308 but Ive never used a 300 win mag before. Would I need a base with more forward cant?

May be an easy question but would like to know for sure before spending 250 bucks on rings and base.

Excuse the spelling etc, I'm from the grand state of Tennessee. Thanks

Jon <>
knoxville, Tenn., USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:04:20 (ZULU) 

Jon, you should have more than enough to get to 1000 with that set up. Depending on your load you should only need about 33 MOA to get to 1000, if that, and that scope and ring/mount set up has it. It's a good package and you should feel good about picking it up.

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:19:34 (ZULU) 

James Gibbons...

Spend the extra few bucks, and get the Badger... the 3.5x10 M3-LR, needs the forward taper, in order to work fully... the MK4 base is NOT at the bottom of the rung... but it's designed for the MK4-M3... a totally different aminal.

Once you start shooting a tac riffle, it gets under your skin, and you will find that you start planing your vacations around match sceduals.

Freedom??? Holy mackle' brudder... So we gots us too much freedom goin'on down there??? so that's the problem.  Well we can fix that up real fast.

Just vote for  Gore next time around... he'll that care of that problem...  yup, we been here before!


CatShooter <>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:52:44 (ZULU) 

Needed a good opinion on the Remington 700p rifle (police sharpshooter)  I know its not an expensive gun but i'm looking for a new rifle that can reach at least 800 yards and still be effective.  Also looking for a rifle that can shoot 1/2 MOA. I've read alot about the rifle but I would like some first hand knowledge of it.  All opinions and suggestions welcome.

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:57:45 (ZULU) 

This is my first post after extensive reading and searching the hot tips and cold shots section and reading the duty roster off and one for several months.  Like Fred Flamminis post on the 3rd I am looking at the FN Special Police Rifle.  I am debating between this and a Remington 700 PSS.  Can anyone tell me about the FN and how it shoots?  Some other websites claim it shoots better than the PSS and that the chrome lined barrel will last longer.  Does anyone have any experience with both of these or with the FN in particular?  I also read that the PSS is the exact same as the Rem. 700 VS except for the stock.  If this is true is the HS precision stock worth the $125 more I will have to pay for the PSS.  I am wary of purchasing a PSS over the internet (because my local gun dealer cannot get a hold of one, he only has the VS) due to the fact that I have never seen more than a picture of the PSS.  Also I know many of you cannot even say Ruger but has anyone shot/seen/heard of their new police rifle?

Thanks for you help


Andrew Kennedy <>
Manhattan, Ks, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 01:12:00 (ZULU) 

Rick, "Horribly surprised with a hospital stay"!  Man, I almost wet myself!  Came by to say hi to the new detail butt-boy before he goes off to W- OCS, but the weather was nice and the boss said you guys were all on the range.

Jim (and Jefe in a related sort of way), the best way to practice fast tempo exercises is to do them often.  Start with TEWTs (Tactical Exercises Without Troops), which you can do on paper, maps, or on something like those kids' rugs with toy "Matchbox" cars, then on true ground (urban or rural, no matter), then roll into full-dress field exercises.

The "War gaming" we hashed about earlier is best done with the S2 representing the bad guys (he is usually the guy who knows what the villains are going to do in both the "Most likely course of action" and "Most dangerous course of action" to shoot holes in a plan (if it's solid, the plan should work -- if it's weak, it sucks out loud).  The unit conducting the mission (Squad, Section, Platoon, Company Commanders) or the S3 war games friendly actions.

When you run a full-blown exercise (like the FBI and FEMA have started in the big cities) it takes a lot of resources running an Exercise Control Group, and lots of impartial markers and referees.  Some of the results of these latest exercises are pretty sad (hospitals and first responders pretty much take it in the shorts because they're the ones trying to 1) assess what's going on at ground zero, and 2) once the first ones are hurt or infected the hospitals fill up and now you've got to ask for help from outside your metro area or county (from neighboring jurisdictions).

Kev, that old "Dunn Kempf" game was a great training aid.  Too bad it went the way of the dodo (the Army's even figuring out now at the NTC that a lot of Battalion Commanders don't know how to use all the resources that are "Pushed down" to them instead of having to be "Pulled down" from higher).  Heavy sigh.  Was a great tool for teaching battalion and company tactics, and didn't cost anything (no overnights, no C-rations, no fuel, no TDY, etc.).

Sometimes you learn more or get more out of planning and command and control exercises by doing walk-talk / point-talk "Rock drills" (this rock is 1st squad, that rock is the support by fire element, etc.) before moving expensive aircraft and vehicles around, having troops bored out of their mind, and burning up valuable resources like time, fuel, ammo, and blade hours.

Sinister Dave <>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 01:23:55 (ZULU) 


Thank you for the guidance in that post!  Good stuff.

Kevin will buy you a beer for that....

Jefe <>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 01:39:19 (ZULU) 

  It is not for drunks to expound on the blessings of Liberty, any more than it is for the lovers of Liberty to listen to them.......

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:09:34 (ZULU) 

Steve da Hockey Ref:

Nah, that brass is worthless.  Next time I'm up in PA I'll take it off your hands for ya' (no sense it cluttering up the garage).

(Now, the rest of you guys, don't let Steve read this --

Extracted from "You Can't Get there with a Gas Gun -- a Thousand Yard Odyssey", Bill Deane, Precision Shooting, August '95:

...Lake City brass... "Dates from 1964 to 1972 are very desirable and knowledgable reloaders will go to great lengths to acquire these years.  Unfortunately, this older brass may only be good for 3 or 4 loads.  Dates from 1985 to the present are equally as desirable and are much easier to obtain.

And the years between 1972 and 1985?  Junk, pure and simple.")

Sinister Dave <>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:19:46 (ZULU) 


If you do a keyword search through the first half of 1999 in the archives ror " -Tom " , you will find many references to a "700 PSS From Hell (tm)", and my tale of woe getting my PSS up and shooting. The short version: after a trip back to Remington (and their lying to me about it beeing a sweet shooter with *their* ammo...bastards), a crown job, bedding in MarineTex and a whole lot of heartburn, it now shoots into .6 MOA out to 500 yards.  Turnkey solution my ass. I'd give the FN a try, personaly.  It's made by the rednecks riteheah in Colatown, South Cackylacky, donchaknow.  I can drive to the factory and bitch in person if it wont shoot.  :)  And...if it indeed will shoot about 1/2 MOA and has a chrome-lined barrel, then thats it.  No other solution to the problem need apply, as far as I am conserned. We have arrived in tactical rifle nirvana.

Mind you, if you get a good 700PSS, then it will be a very solid shooter. Lots of people here have been so fortunate.  However,  I am no longer the "Remington is the default solution" guy I once was.


A Howa man now. :-)

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:20:05 (ZULU) 

Andrew Kennedy,

We hashed this out not too long ago.  If you want to check it out, it's in the Apr 2001 section, starts around the 17th and goes through into May (But ya can't see the last week in April).

There are also MANY guys on the site shooting BOTH PSS's and FNSPR's/Stealth's/HBV's.  I refer back to the last few months for loads, DM mag fixes and general impressions of said rifles.  Great info...

Don't take this to mean, "Go read the Archives" I just can't do these guys justice.


Chris <>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:29:01 (ZULU) 

Andy's Dad - Good post on equipment, would add shears and camp saw as well as digging tools such as entrenching tool and garden hand trowel.  Also make sure that the compass is very handy during those periods on a stalk that you are at worms eye view and get 90 to 180 degrees out on you crawl.  Better to be able to check when you can.  Have the good Silva with an inclinometer for checking angles as well.

Dave - Trust me, I wet myself as well! :-)  Good post on the war gaming and rock and stick.  The computer has ruined the old techniques of low tech.  TEWTs are the best way to get all of your support and action pukes on one sheet of music for a plan.  It also shows the holes and dropped support real fast.  The same goes with the "uh sir, can't do that with what we have" type of surprises.  Allows for the sir to go get what is needed.  That is why it is best for the "push down" so that the men have a range of possiblilies.  I used to hate the statement of "well you didn't ask for it", which went right along with "what the hell do you want the moon?".  Can't win sometimes.

Jefe - It used to be, in a far off time in a distant land, that the staff slots were filled by those "old farts" that were hurt but still had the knowledge.  This allowed for a much more integrated staff with the action pukes.  (figured that since I am a FAG that I would now cal the action guys pukes. :-))  This also allowed for a mentoring of the new officers on the ways of staff actually supporting instead of demanding.  Sinister I know you remember those times as you are now getting into old fart land as well.  :-)

It is still the responsibility of the NCOs to guide and train.  Remember the old adage of officer and NCO questions and answers.  Officers ask what must be done by when.  The NCOs answer with how and who and then trains the personnel to do it.  ALL THE PERSONNEL!

Hold hard guys I have rambled way too much tonight.  Sniper conference tomorrow, so fun will be had by all.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:44:42 (ZULU) 


Latest Precision Shooting Magazine (page 81) has a Sinclair International add for Hornady 6.5 x .284 Brass. If this is good stuff then life is indeed good and the 6.5 just go another shot in the "brass"(pun intended.

Now all we need is the Winchester Stealth and Rem PSS chambered for this puppy, from the factory, and we'll be set!

Another recon due tomorrow. Will report back if'n the bear don't get me...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett(God's Country), OR, U.S. of A - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 04:54:53 (ZULU) 


I hear you on that All the Way and then some.

I was very fortunate to have enlisted in 82.  I started in the 82nd and my sqd ldr, PSG, 1SG, CSM were all 173rd vets.  You simply could not have done much better than those guys.  Wildmen and some very tough bastards who you were glad were on your side.

The 173rd was disbanded by then as you know, but that must have been one hell of a unit because I have met several guys from the herd and every single one of them was squared the @#$% away.  We could use a Brigade like that again.

I appreciate the guidance.

Mission First, Troops Always!

Jefe <>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 13:41:00 (ZULU) 


   I didn't mean that the Leupold MK-4 base was not a good "Quality" base I was trying to say that out of the good ones its the "Cheaper" one as far as price. I have always like the Leupold stuff and for the money you can't beat it.

 I know there are other brands that claim to be better but how strong does a mount or rings have to be thats holding a delicate object that will break long before any good mount or ring does.

  The bottom line is that the scope will always be the weak link in the system. Just my opinion of course ducking for cover now!!!!

Pat <>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 14:17:19 (ZULU) 

Ref: 173rd.

Jefe, I have it on good authority that the colors are being reactivated.  Your wish may come true.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 14:36:40 (ZULU) 


I figgered as much. Even better, I may be able to get a couple more 5 gallon buckets full in the same condition. I figure that they need shot once to fire form them to my chamber, and then neck size for a while. All have been fired out of the same National match M1a....Not the best treatment for brass used in a bolt gun, but the price will be obscenely low.

Steve <>
SOUTH WEST, PA, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 15:19:42 (ZULU) 

Go Here:

Then we'll talk.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 17:33:25 (ZULU) 

I was looking online the other day for anyway I can purchase a M24 and I came across "Texas Brigade Armory" and they make M24's for $2100.  I saw the picture and it is identical to the "T".  They used Rem action, H-S adjustable stock, etc, etc.  But wait here's what got me realing thinking about buyin this puppy, they claim to test all their guns out before they leave the shop and they guarantee 1/4 MOA!

They that is better than what the army gets.  I was really considering buying the rifle it looks like and claims to shoot as well as or better than the real deal.  I want to pass it on to you guys and hear your opinion on it.  Please give me some advice here. All opinions welcome.

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 19:13:08 (ZULU) 

Kevin that load bearing equipment carried is a little far fetched to me and in my day I carried a ton of shit with all the como gear and explosives needed for DA missions.   Hell I didn't carry half that much shit when I moved from one post to another.   The heaviest load I ever jumped with was in jumpmaster school when we had to jump with mortar round crates with three 50 lb sandbags inside strapped to your harness and carring a weapon.  Those quick release straps never worked for me when I hit the ground.  Ooouch that smarts !!

Today a combat jump would be a HALO team jumping with tandem rigs and the passenger carrying the M249 SAW locked and loaded while the jumper directs the chute.  All that other non essential stuff can be air dropped behind me.    Yee Haaaa !!!   or was that Geronomoooo !!!

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 19:29:53 (ZULU) 

Hey Pat thanks again for telling me about John Dustin. He was a wealth of knowledge on the Howa rifles. Any one else out there interested in Howa rifles I strongly suggest you contact this guy if you have any questions. I think I just might become a Howa man.

Robert French <>
va, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 00:51:34 (ZULU) 


There have been MANY, MANY complaints on this site, about "Texas Brigade Armory", and Mike Lau, who runs the place... bad service... guys have waited YEARS for their stick... they don't return e-mail, They tell you "any day now" (for years)... etc.

You might consider contacting George Gardner, who is a regular on this site... he doesn't have a cool name for his business, like "Radioactive Brigade Armory"... but he is one of the finest tactical riffle builders IN THE COUNTRY... there are many guys on this site that have his sticks, and they are second to NONE!!

I think he is delivering in 6 to 8 weeks, but you need to ask him.

You can reach George at:


He has a website, with tons of pictures, but I don't remember the address... he will give it to you in the e-mail.

I can't recommend him enough.

And... by the way... George Gardner DOES NOT LIE, or MAKE EXCUSES!!!, And you can take that to the BANK!


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's so fine... with wine :)), USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 01:15:56 (ZULU) 

Still waiting after 2.5 years now.   I second Pablito's statement.

TR <>
Portland, OR, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 02:11:25 (ZULU) 


This brought me out of the "Lurk Mode"..........

IF, you are still WAITING for a rifle after this length of need serious HELP......

I would send him a certified, registered letter, and DEMAND my $$$$ or my piece.......give him 2 weeks to deliver, or your lawyer will be bringing suit.........

Make it CLEAR, you will NOT rescend ONCE you start proceedings......

It will be actual costs, plus time, plus damages.......

This HAS, and WILL work..............Flash bang time........

Dos Zapatos

Two Shoes <>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 02:48:25 (ZULU) 

Christian F,

From what I understand TBA rifles are pretty good, but I certainly wouldn't want to wait TWO YEARS or more to get a rifle. It is also really important to compare apples to apples regarding custom gunsmithing. How much of the work is still done in house? Another custom smith that charges $5,000+ for a Rem 700 based action does very little of the actual work in house, farming it out to subcontractors.

Not to sound like Mr. Cat Eradicator, but check out the archives regarding TBA and while you are poking around, scan for other DR posters first hand interaction with the other custom gun builders.

Quality tactical rifles are not inexpensive, so it is important (for me at least) to really understand what I am spending my hard to come by cash on, and when I will be able to shoot it!

Good question, it provokes some good interaction on the site.

Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 04:55:07 (ZULU) 

Christian, I third Lito's remarks. George Gardner has a very good rep and that's why i just sent him my rifle to get my new stock bedded. He actually called me to let me know the rifle and new stock got to him. Very impressive. He's a great guy to talk to and will return e-mails. Also his base rifle is actually cheaper than the TBA and no 2 year wait. You can find him at and then click on the icon for precision rifles. Drop him a line or call to discuss a rifle with him. Good luck.

Rob01 <>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 10:47:09 (ZULU) 


A fourth endorsement for George at GA Precision, He had my rifle back to me BEFORE he said he would.  EXCELLENT work, and he also responded to each and every one of my emails and phone calls quickly.  On top of that he was courtious(sp??)enough not to laugh at me when I inquired about my action being glued in...  it's that damn tight :-)


Chris <>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 11:09:57 (ZULU) 

Thanks to everyone who offered their opinions on combining Badger rings with Leupold bases (and on bases in general) both privately and on-forum.  I appreciate all of the time taken by people to assist me!

My unbroken string of positive experiences with fellow firearm owners continues :-)!

Thanks again,

James Gibbons

James Gibbons <>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 11:55:43 (ZULU) 

Christian- GA Precision/George Gardner- In my experience, have never dealt with a better 'smith. His work is absolutely as good as you'll find, he is very fairly priced, timely, and the real shocker- he actually answers the phone and returns calls and emails!! Give George a call at 816-221-1844,you most certainly will not regret it and will be happily shooting your GA tackdriver while some less fortunate folks are still waiting for a return call or their $5K+ rifle for over a year! Good luck.

Seuss <>
Lovely, PA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 12:35:22 (ZULU) 

TBA and Other Premium Boltguns:

I have a friend that has a TBA gun that he bought in NIB condition from an individual (note: no two-year wait).  It is a very solid piece of gear and shoots very well indeed.  However, when informed of TBAs rep for poor service and kinda'-sorta' bending the truth on delivery dates, my friend failed to see the purpose in going through all that.

As a halfway competant rifle builder myself, I understand what TBA, the Chandlers and others on the same page are doing and appriciate the fact that they are makiing a premium product to very high standards, but these very high-end,  multi-thousand dollar price tag rifles just sort of leave me cold. This stuff is not rocket science, guys. Its just a mechanical device, and a rather simple one at that.  Frankly, any decent action with a good-quality tube screwed into it and bedded properly into a solid piece of plastic or laminate should go .5 MOA, and beyond that point, who the hell cares for what we are interested in doing? Thats better than any mortal can hold under field conditions anyway. I think what a lot of people are buying (and at a rather high price, IMHO) is confidance.  Not to say that this is not of value, but I think some of this stuff that people sell is gold plating, to a degree.

Personaly, I would get a Howa or FN police gun and have it bedded in MarineTex, and be happy for a while.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 13:10:01 (ZULU) 

On what Tom said...

Sure... nobody "needs" a special rifle... but

I think the issue of special, or high quality riffles is not an easy one to pack away.

The average Winchester Stealth, or HBV, will shoot better than the average guy can shoot in the field, and better than many beginners can shoot from a bench, and they are only $600 or a little more(depending on how much your dealer likes you).

Part of having a custom rifle from a good maker, is self confidence. That's 'specially true for the beginner, or intermeadate shooter who can't tell if those lousy groups are him, or the rifle.  With a questionable rifle, he may think those 1" groups are the best he can get, and not push himself... and most don't have the skills to "tweek" an Off the Rack rifle to get the best out of it... If he has a "Really good" rifle, and it is a PROVEN shooter with common match ammo, it will push him to be better... he will never be satisfied with 3/4" groups, from a riffle that has proven itself to be capable of 1/4".  If you know the gun is capable, you will push yourself to do it!

Also, there is pride in having something just plain "nice" that other's admire... depending on our social circle, we do it with our clothes, our cars, our watches, our houses, our fly rods, our guns, and of course, our women... it's a "Guy thing"!

There are some occasional low end riffles that will shoot under .5"... but not to many guys will drag you to their gun safe, and beam when they show you their $300 rifle.

Also, throughout the ages, men critters have taken great pride in their tools (how many guys brag about the set of rachets they got from the Chinee' mail order house)... and even more pride in their weapons.

Men have traditionally taken great pride in stocks of 100% Burl Walnut, beautiful fit and finish, perhaps engraving... and you don't have to talk about guns... look at the weapons of the Zulu, the Samurai, and the American Indian... not just a functional weapon, but truly ornate and beautiful in their culture's own symbolism.

As to people not being able to shoot well from a field position... I disagree.  I shot a 0.46" group at 405 (measured) yards, with an M24 I built, in front of witnesses (one of which is "Rob1", a Rosterfarian)... from a Harris bipod, and shoulder contact... no sandbag, stockbag or beanbag.  Never, ever, settle for mediocre shooting.

While that is better than my usual (which is piss poor ;)... lotsa guys can shoot in the 3's and 4's, in the field, all day long...

On what Andy's Dad said in the next post (man, I love this editing feature :))... if a rifle meets the design specs of an M40A1, M21, M24. or whatever... then no matter who built it, it "IS" what it "IS" (and we don't need no clinton definitions of what "IS"... "IS")


CatShooter <>
If it walks like a Duck, Quacks like a Duck, and looks like a Cat... it's a Cat!, and, it's dead! - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 14:10:05 (ZULU) 

Ref: Custom Rifles

It is a pleasure just to sit with m M40A1 in my lap.  To me it's a thing of beauty and a work of art.  I had it built to spec. by a local riflesmith and didn't have to wait years and pay thousands for a name.

I can't call it a "Chandler Rifle" because it's not.  But I call it a M40A1 because that's what it is.  Some folks refer to similar rifles as "clones".  I don't know why because if it quacks like a duck etc.

Some may consider it a small issue but besides the confidence and pride I feel in ownership, I can clean it with a half dozen patches.  Try that with an off the rack PSS.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 14:55:23 (ZULU) 

Again, I must agree with the feline vaporizer. I like obtaining and using custom tactical rifles for a number of reasons, but he touched on most of the important ones for me.

I know if I missed, or f@#ed up, or got a lousy group it was me that didn't function properly and not the rifle. (it certainly minimizes my excuses!)

Having very high quality rifles has pushed me to focus on other elements of shooting and not mind screw myself wondering if it was me or the rifle!

Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 15:31:51 (ZULU) 

  Have to agree with the cat man (Again). Its really a matter of confidence to know that you have the best equiptment and also a matter of pride.

   I even take it a step further and try to get the best loads and brass thats available also.(Now that I have good rifles I still need excuses for misses) I hate it when I miss a target and I don't know why!!! If the shot breaks clean and it felt good then it damn well better hit the target in my book. Granted, there are the enviromental factors but those aside it should be on the mark.

   I think having the best equiptment you can afford gives you that and that translates to confidence. We have all shot the occasional "One" hole group but a good rifle shoots good groups all the time not just a great one once in awhile.

   Tom said a mouth full when he said a good shooting rifle does "NOT" have to cost 3 to $4000.00 dollars. Mine cost around 12 to $1500.00 and they shoot damn fine. Granted I don't have a steel trigger guard and teflon finish on mine but I have everything else and I don't think that the guard and coating are that much. Just my thoughts on this.

Pat <>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 16:23:47 (ZULU) 

Custom Rifles:

Hey, I can see where pride of ownership has a certain value.  I like nice stuff too.  I think that part of it is how my attitude towards firearms has evolved in certain respects.  I have always been a rifle buff, but started out reading Rifle magazine (back when it was useful) and got all jacked up on Turkish walnut this and Niedner buttplate that, all that Colorado School of Trades stuff. I could get high on the smell of inletting black :-). I actually got halfway decent at checkering and polishing up for a blue job.    But, over time I became steadily more interested in function and less in form. Part of this was from being poor and playing with military surplus stuff and trying to make it shoot like the expensive stuff I could not afford (like, a 700 ADL from Wal-Mart). Later, working on National Match M1 and M14 rifles allmost forced me to focus more on function, because there is so much of this sort of focus required just to keep the damn things working.   Now I typically build profoundly ugly rifles that work pretty damn good, with is just as well considering the fact that they are going to be Gillefied and painted before it is all over with. To me, pride of ownership is 95% function and how it looks or "feels" in some subjective sense is largely irrelevant. My PSS holds .6 MOA off of a bipod from 100 to 500 yards, confirmed, repeatedly, every day. That is thoroulghy OK in my book. At this point, I am more interested in enhancing stability and durability than I am absolute accuracy.  Hence, my search for a cost-effective replacement for the cheesy aluminum bottom metal on the PSS.  As for the cleaning issue, yeah, its a pain.  I never said that I would buy another PSS, much less that mine is perfect.  Its just more than adequate, and will continue to improve as time and funds permit.

As for field shooting, I know that some awfully good shooting can be done off of a bipod.  But then, we get into the whole queston of wether or not a bipod prone constitutes a truly field-worthy position.  Most of the people I have talked to and read on the matter that do this for a living seem to be of the opinion that one usualy ends up shooting while laying drooped over a log, on ones side, with one shoulde blade dug into a tree trunk and the other hanging in space while the rifles front end rests on another log with your balled-up fist serving as a rest, or some other kind of wierdness they dont really teach in school. The question becomes one of, can you beat .6 MOA while doing THAT?  I cant, though I intend to start practicing shooting from some mondo bizzaro positions. In any event, I am confidant that it will be a long time before I will be able to outshoot my PSS under these or most other conditions.  About the time I wash out the throat in the factory tube, I will be good enough to move on to a Hart or Obermeyer, I figure. Then, we shall see.

In the meantime, I will hopefully be in a position to try and push that .6 MOA figure out to the pracical limit of the 168 MK, say 800 or 900 yards.  That would be of much more utility than smaller groups at shorter ranges, IMHO.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 16:30:47 (ZULU) 

"........tree trunk and the other hanging in space while the rifles

front end rests on another log with your balled-up fist serving as a rest, or some other kind of wierdness they dont really teach in school. The question becomes one of, can you beat .6 MOA while doing THAT?"

Yessir I can.

But I've been working on doing it since age 9..........42 years ago.  :)))

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 17:45:11 (ZULU) 

Re: super duper custom guns

I demand a certain level of accuracy from my working rifles, that being 3/4 MOA, which isn't asking very much in all honesty.  What I do demand is bulletproof reliability and consistancy, none of this wandering zero crap.  That's what you should be concerned about.  My issue M40a1 is a 3/4 minute gun, with SB it doesn't do any better.  With M118LR I can put 10rds on a black 3/4inch paster at 100yds, all day, everyday, and that's what matters to me.  Tiny little groups off benchs are for those BR nerds.  Do it off your pack, off a bipod, or off a camera tripod through window in the veg, and then you're talking stuff relevant to snipers.  It's a lot more man then gear, lots of guys make good enough guns, it's good enough people that are damned hard to find.  Can't spend money to get that.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 17:49:37 (ZULU) 

I want to thank everyone who has responed to my TBA inquiry.  It is safe to say I won't be dealing with them.  However, I just stopped by george gardener's precision rifle page and it seems like if george if everything you say he is then I'll be ordering a rifle from him.  I even saw a model M24 that they made oin his photo gallery (looks great!!!)  I emailed him and I await his response so I'll keep you alll posted... AND THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP.

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 18:28:02 (ZULU) 

Tom and Ken..

   You both have valid points but most of us on here are not snipers or a lot are exsnipers. However a lot of us are still tactical shooters who compete in matches and some of the matches require sub half MOA accuracy.

   I think this is where the accuracy demands come into play that many of us are talking about. For all around field work I am sure MOA would be just fine. However when shooting at air gun targets at 100yds or at a space between two heads that is a mere 1" wide at 200yds the accuracy demands do go up.

   I know some of these seem unrealistic in real world shooting but in matches if you want to run with the big dogs you need the equiptment to compete with them.

Pat <>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 19:48:27 (ZULU) 

We come full circle to discussing custom guns again.

Is an accurate measure of the sniper whether or not (if military or police) he can take an off-the-rack issued sniper rifle and, after zeroing and customizing (adjustments and camouflaging) he can hit the target within mission requirements?

For an individual owner, I would imagine a HUGE challenge would be to go to somewhere like Storm or Autauga or any number of other comparable locations, and be told "Swap your rifle with the owner two to the left.  Zero from 100 to 600 yards, and confirm every 50 yards from 600 to 800 yards (all on iron maidens) ten minutes from now.  WARNING ORDER to follow in two hours..."

Will that borrowed rifle / scope / ammo hit the targets you want to hit, with your ammo, based on your skills?  It should!  If not, you know what components to endorse or avoid ("Hey, that new tool is THE HEAT!"  Or, "Man, that Ruger ain't worth the metal it's turned out of."  No slight or endorsement necessarily made on purpose).

If it's yours for hobbying, hunting, competing, training sustainment, or just to have to own, buy what you want and can afford.  Know the capabilities and limitations of your equipment and yourself.

Then train like hell.

Bipods?  Gee, is that why they're detachable and / or the legs fold up out of the way?  Terrain and situation dictate.

OLD?!  What the heck, Rick?  If you stop moving and I can find my glasses I'ma gonna smack you with my cane! (Damn walker wheels!)

Sinister Dave <>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 20:18:47 (ZULU) 

ALL of my riffles will outshoot me! Everyone of them.

I once entertained the idea of getting started in 1000 yard bench rest. I called a damn fine builder of such riffles that lives near Charlotte and inquired as to cost. He asked if I wanted to 'shoot' or 'compete'. Confused, I asked why those questions. He said a riffle just built to 'shoot' at the matches would run about 2 grand, a riffle built to 'compete' would START at 5 grand with the sky as the limit. I dismissed the idea of competing and decided that me and the PSS would just shoot for fun. In October, I hope to start unless this fall is as busy as this spring and summer was.

Most definitely agree that you make do with what you have until you can afford a more pricey toy. Reality sucks but the price of toys is directly related to quality. No different for fishing tackle, golf clubs or other toys. You get what you pay for and if you are lucky, the riffle you buy will end up being a real shooter.

In my college days at ECU, I befriended a nice old gentleman (at least 75, he wasn't sure) that had approval to hunt on the same land as I did. He carried an old 22 hornet taped to a piece of the original wood stock. As we were walking down one of the field roads toward the Tar River a nice size cotton mouth made itself known with a certain amount of irritableness. At about 30 feet I raised my shotgun to dispatch the critter and before I could shoulder it the gentleman had put the little bullet in the head of the snake directly between the eyes FROM THE HIP. Obviously I was amazed as he offered the suggestion that I need to quit aiming and start shooting! It was then that I noticed that the hornet did not have any sights on it!

Moral of the story, the gentleman only had one rifle and new exactly how to use it. I have often considered dumping most of my weapons and buy just a couple fine quality weapons and learn them to the point that I don't have to aim anymore as the gentleman suggested. It is just real hard to bring myself to do this so I have yet to make that jump.



For all of you beach bums, it is again time for fun, frolic and fishing at Cherry Grove, S.C. starting 9/15. Shaggers and beach music afficiandos will be arriving in droves to partake of drink and dance. Of course I abhore drinking and partying so I will most likely be stuck on the Cherry Grove pier for a week :) Should any of you Rosterferians like to make it down that way, I will of course be wearing some type of attire for recognition when I am forced by the lovely Meatwoman to leave the pier and enter the various dens of sin to mingle with the masses. If you can't get my attention, just yell "hey asshole" and I am sure to respond. I can also be recognized as a balding yet handsome dude standing in the corner of Ducks II with a pitcher of long island ice tea with a straw in it.

Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 22:25:03 (ZULU) 


Now you have done it! You made me spill beer on my keyboard again!

Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 23:04:15 (ZULU) 



You damn betcha, cuz he's really mean and pissed!  His wifie won't let him buy anymore ;))

Geoff MacCormick...

Your mail server is kicking my e-mails back.  Pay your bill! ;)

CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 23:15:31 (ZULU) 


Regarding Custom Rifles:   There are any number of good reasons for owning a custom rifle. Pride of ownership is one, but the one thing that probably dirves us all in that direction is that we can't get what we want and have to have it made. Whether the issue is caliber, accuracy, style, wood vs fiberglass, etc.

I have three custom tactical rifles. I had them build because that was the only way I could get what I wanted.

On the other hand, my custom hunting rifles are because I enjoy the hunt and a fine custom (wood stocked) rifle adds to the enjoyment.

My latest project was a meld of both. I couldn't get what I wanted in caliber and quality. Hence my 23" Krieger .284 Win barrel and custom Mexican Mauser action. Blackburn trigger and bottom metal, custom mounts. All on a trim action that weighs 4 ounces less than a Winchester M70, controlled round feed, and of course it's a MAUSER.

A Loopie 1.75 X 6 Vari-x III tops it off.

With this one I'll get what I want, in the caliber I want, and be able to say I stocked it in walnut, myself.

Hmmm, wonder about a "high grade" sniper...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 23:43:57 (ZULU) 

'Lito...Huh?  I am getting mail from everywhere else..I dunno.  I will call technical support (ROFLMAO).

Geoff M <>
USA - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 00:03:34 (ZULU) 

Geoff MacCormick...

Read the fine print... you've been blacklisted somewhere along the line (I told you not to use "those" words ;)

Send an e-mail to:

And tell them that you'll be good ;)

>"Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 591  your host is blacklisted by Send your questions to Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:07:48 -0400"<


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 01:25:54 (ZULU) 

Well it seems I really stirred up sh*t in here:) I've taken everyone one's advice on talking to george (actually emailing each other) and he seems like a hell of a guy.  I left 2 messages for him and he returned both of them.  I was looking for a M24 model rifle that would shoot at least 1/2 moa and keep the price around $2000 without sacrificing quality.  George responed "no problem" and he can do it in this decade too!!!

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 03:29:58 (ZULU) 

Hi All,

I have a question for you guys, something I haven't run across in my 25+ years of shooting/reloading. A friend said that he read an article about how the dust from polishing media is left in the case and gets expelled into the barrel when the reloaded round is fired. This dust leads to throat erosion and premature barrel wear especially when using crushed walnut as polishing media. Since I use crushed walnut to polish all my cases I'm thinking sh*$, what am I doing to my barrels. Have any of you heard of this before? Friend says that the article recommended blowing the dust out of the cases with compressed air before they are loaded. Do any of you do this, would it help?

Is this one of those things that doesn't matter, or do I need to add another step to my reloading process?

Take Care

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 04:42:44 (ZULU) 

Robert Opp...

I buy a LOT of fired cases, and many are grungy.  I polish the cases first, then wash them in liquid Tide, and dry them, before loading them.

I wouldn't venture an opinion on the wearing out of the barrel therory, but I don't want that abrasive dust and crap in my dies, or on my loading machines.

If you do a few hundred cases at a time, you can use a $12.99 hair drier (pink works best ;)... if you do brass in the thousands, build yourself a wire mesh drying rack with a fan.


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 11:23:11 (ZULU) 

For you folks that want to play with a ballistics program there's an Excel spreadsheet at that I use.  I originally got the spreadsheet from and later modified it with Peter Cronhelm.  It's named the Ranging Ballistic Computer (RBC), it needs Microsoft Excel to run but has the benefit of being able to load onto a handheld computer (Cassiopeia or Jornada type).  It's not password locked or anything such as that so anyone can modify it.  Download it from Peter's site by selecting RBC from his list of downloads, he has other goot stuff too.

This is a FREE WARE program, no pestering, ever.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 13:06:54 (ZULU) 

"Death from Afar" series of books by Chandler!

Very high dollar books, are they worth the read? Anybody got a set they want to get rid of?

Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 16:59:16 (ZULU) 

To Jerry from Canada that called me about muzzle brakes.

Please call again or send me an e-mail as I made a mistake and hit the erase button instead of the save button so I cannot call you back.

Sorry about that.


Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 22:28:46 (ZULU) 

Tony Yackowski...

I tried to call you, but you are unlisted.

Ken's wife was hurt in a horse accident, and they are on the way to the hospital.

Check your e-mail, and call the number that I sent you, about Monday at Storm.

<edit>... other guys... she'll be OK, so don't worry.


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 00:24:45 (ZULU) 

Wish the Major a speedy recovery! Dang horses, make good dogfood ;^)

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 02:32:15 (ZULU) 


Picked up a Winch M70 Sporter/Varmint(so marked on the barrel) in, you guessed it, .308. Rifle is new, as I took factory grease off the bolt and reciever rails. Bore is sparkling, but I cleaned anyway. Barrel is 26" and tapers to .680" at the target crowned muzzle. Beautiful wood stock. I set the trigger for about 3 lb's per 'Lito's instructions, mounted a 3.5 X 10 Loopie Vari-X III. Loaded 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips and 175 gr. Sierra MK's for testing in it.

Anyone have any experience with these or have seen one? Believe this is a "pre-Stealth" series gun. It IS sexy. Will let you all know how it shoots.

This brings my number of .308 to an even eight. I don't think I'll need professional help until I get an even dozen or so...;-)

Hope your all having a great weekend.

As an aside, I caught part of the "Santana" segment of Woodstock last night. Not sure, but thought I saw myself in the front row. Yes! There are those of us old enough to remember the event.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 03:34:26 (ZULU) 

Oh wooooow maaaan! Wes, I have the woodstock movie set and most all of those nasty old albums, yes albums! Country Joe and the Fish, Hendrix, CSN, Joan and all the gang. Music, other than beach and shag, just don't get no better than that! Brings back some real fine memories, well I remember some of it anyway.

Purple haze is still in my brain! Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 14:14:39 (ZULU) 

Good books,

The Bear and the Dragon, Tom Clancy.

This book has it all: disfunctional superpowers, corruption, sex, brave soldiers, real leaders and a grumpy old sniper who lives in the woods and hunts wolves.

Now if only Mr. Clancy would only use seperate chapters to seperate different plot strings, instead of a different plot for each paragraph. It's kinda hard for us stoopid rednecks to follow ;0

4i's <>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 16:30:02 (ZULU) 

Hogs - The Major's back home - long night in the E.R.

She fell forward off of a trotting horse - broke her collar bone and shoulder blade. Plus - it's a pretty healthy jolt when you hit the ground from that far up.

Arm/shoulder is slung, he's pretty well out of it for now. Gonna be a painful next several days.

thanks for the prayers and support.

Tony and I were scheduled to team up for SSII at storm mountain starting monday - obvsiously that's scrubbed for my part for this year.

Pablito - thanks for relaying the message to Tony. I have not heard from him or made contact with him - but I have enough messages planted at the econolodge in keyser, wv - and at storm mountain.


Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 17:04:42 (ZULU) 

Get well soon Major! Is the horse still living?

Feeling your pain, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 17:36:04 (ZULU) 

And it's One, Two, Three, what are we fight'n for......

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 17:37:49 (ZULU) 

A while back someone posted that they needed to know how to use the reticle of the Redfield LE-12, or LE-9.  We got into contact with each other, but I could not find my stinkin spec sheet.  Well, now I found it, but don't have the e-mail address for the guy that wanted it.  If anyone needs this info, e-mail me and I will shoot you a copy of it.


CR <>
PC, Okla., USA, Planet Earth - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 18:34:52 (ZULU) 

Why a custom stick...

for me its simple, i want a custom rifle so i know for sure the rifle is not the problem any longer and i can start searching for any errors in my own style of shooting.

(Stefan, read the comments made by Wes, Sin Dave, lito and Bolt etc etc thats exactly why i want something better than a Savage or Winchester HBV...starting to get my drift/ reason?)


Read "Holding the Zero" from Gerald Seymour, interesting little story about a civilian long range competitor, Gus Peake, who turns sniper in Iraq to help the Kurdish people against Saddam, who in returns send his best sniper, Major Karim Aziz to take Gus out.

Was fun to read but felt a bit like a ripp-off, cause the story is very similar to Enemy at the Gates, Zaitsjev vs Konig.

I also have a book by Stephen Hunter, which is about a former Vietnam-Vet sniper named Bob Lee Swagger, who is asked to help some sort of secret service to prevent a long range assasination but in the long run gets set-up himself, especially like one of the last fights where he almost single-handed keeps hordes of mercenary's at bay from the top of a hill with just a 5 shot bolt-action...

Have any of you Rosterfarians read this book and if so, could you tell me the english title, cause i have the dutch translation, "Dood in het vizier" (which sucks) and would like to order the english version?

2 week Life-firing excercise;

Just back for the weekend, had a great week in Bergen-Belsen, we shot 30 TOW rockets, unfortenately we missed alot of them, most likely due to a bad lot number because lots of them went straight upwards after 800 meters or so due to wire breaks...

Stefan even got to visit us last thursday, he spend a whole day on the TOW range with us, unfortenately that day we were shooting inerts instead of the big bang 71E's, but i think he had a great day, misses and all.

Also did some night-firing and the new night-sights on top of our C7a1's (m16a2) performed exelent, we even did a competition at 100 meters in totall darkness, at paper 10-ring targets which we could see as if it were daylight, that sharp, i won with 6 v-bulls and 4 tens, just ahead of our recce's platoonleader who "only" had 5 v-bulls. Probably due to the fact that we were concentrating more than normally (during daylight), everyone was shooting great, most nines and tens were shot.

Nice thing about this night-sight, it has a built in bullet-drop-compensator, when you focus at a target the reticle moves along the vertical axis, so no matter what range, you are always on target.

(haven't figured out yet how this works exactly, because when i focus the sight it will have a different impact than when another shooter focus it to his eyes, guess it works roughly, but it does work, we shot at targets from 50 to 300 meters and all went down with first shot strikes)

Tuesday will be cqb-drills and wednesday will be full of trenches and unknown distances along with some AT4 shooting.

Gonna miss the Army life,

(15 working days till i once again will be a civilian again)


Marco <>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 22:16:36 (ZULU) 

Michael Odom <>
- Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 22:48:01 (ZULU) 

Michael Odom <>
- Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 22:49:05 (ZULU) 

Greetings all,

 I need some help here.I just got a 700 vls for a wedding gift from my wife. I have dropped the trigger pull from 8lbs to 21/2lbs, free floated the bbl channel in the stock. It is a beautiful stock but when it came out of the box there were a lot of high spots in the bbl channel.

 I was wondering what else i could do to it, to get it up to par. I am interested in tactical shooting matches (a lot more time behind the stick is the first place to start, I know). Its shooting about .75 MOA @100 fom the bench. It will be an as I can afford it sort of thing.

 I was thinking of pillar bedding and glass bedding.I can make the pillar myself at work.(being a machinist has some good points... even if jobs are not very plentiful here.) Is this a good next move ?

 Anyone here in Oregon who is into tactical shooting? if so please let me know. I have a lot of land to shoot on and would like to set up a practice course



Michael Odom <>
Salem, Or, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 23:05:10 (ZULU) 

Mike, congratulations on your new toy. You certainly have a nice wifie! What caliber did you get? What glass, rings and base do you have on it?

Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 23:35:03 (ZULU) 


I have the book you are asking about. I will dig it out and let you know the title as soon as I find it.

FOUND IT! the english title is Black Light.

Another fiction book you may like is At Close Quarters, another of Gerald Seymour's books.

It is about an Israeli sniper and a British diplomat sent into the Beqa'a valley in Lebanon to target a terrorist leader.

Set in the mid 1980's, it's not bad for a fiction book.


Sniff <>
Auckland, New Zealand - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 23:55:49 (ZULU) 

Time for "Band of Brothers". Signed up for HBO just to watch this. Hope it doesn't have too much girl stuff in it!

Another good read is "The 13th Valley" by DelVecchio.

Time to pop some corn, Bolt headed for the recliner and out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 00:48:51 (ZULU) 


it's a .308 ,its got a tasco 2.5-10 tactical and weaver rings and bases. badger rings and bases are in the mail. and a new scope is in the near future. not sure what yet, heard good things about nightforce , they sure look nice.



Michael Odom <>
Salem, Or, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 03:16:22 (ZULU) 

Like 'lito I wash my cases (no tide, but pink palmolive...sooo soft), but I use compressed air with a rubber blow nib to dry out the cases immediately after washing them.  This takes time but the result is total confidence that the cases are nice and clean.  I also use a bit of case polish in the walnuts.  (Can't shoot worth shit, so I have to look pretty)

I suspect walnut is a bit softer than the steel of a barrel, so the resulting theory of wear wouldn't make sense.

Hank <>
Sore thumbs, Loading room, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 06:00:14 (ZULU) 

Barrel wear.  The comments on case cleaning abrasives were made by Boots Obermeyer.  You can read some of his accumulated experience/wisdom at  This is Jim Owens site on highpower shooting.  The stuff by Boots & Jack Krieger makes very interesting reading.

Agree with 'Lito, you're supposed to tumble brass before the loading process to clean off stuff that might damage your dies.  Nothing like Tide to remove sizing lube and any abrasives that might be left before you start stuffing the cases.

VLS owner-envy you your wife.  Besides trigger & freefloat you probably ought to bed the recoil lug.  I also used Acra-Glas without the glass floc to coat all the inletting inside the stock to minimize moisture absorption.  Don't worry too much about the reach to the rifling.  When loaded to function through the magazine, my VLS does better than .5 MOA if I'm doing my part.  With the laminated stock, the pillars aren't really necessary.  The action bolt torque is only about 5 ft lbs.  Do it if it makes you feel good.  I tend to pour mine with glass.

WR Moore <>
VA, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 08:41:28 (ZULU) 

Ref: Band of Brothers

Two thumbs up.

All The Way!


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 10:09:58 (ZULU) 

Alright Guys. I know not sniper related, but I thought you'll might enjoy a laugh and that this one might appeal to the sense of humour on this site..hence  a joke.

Several years before the Gulf War, Barbara Walters did a story on gender roles

in Kuwait.  Among her observations, she noted then that women customarily walked

about 10 feet behind their husbands.

Barbara returned to Kuwait recently and observed that the men now walked several

yards  behind their wives.  Ms. Walters approached one of the women and said,

"This is marvelous. Can you tell the free world just what enabled women here to

achieve this reversal of roles?"

"Land mines," said the Kuwaiti woman.

hope you enjoyed it Guys.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 12:29:35 (ZULU) 

Hey sniper dudes.  Back from the weekend.  Moved/remodeling in the RAIN sucks pond water.  Don't do it.  You know, after 13 years of snipin', SWATin', competitive shootin' and huntin' you really accumulate some crap.  I have roughly 17,000 !!!! once fired Federal 308 M brass.  Started keeping it way back when for when I am able to retire and do some high power shooting.  Sure adds up quick.

LITO and MEDICJIM:  Hey bros, no jack booted folks here in SE Texas.  Didn't mean to start something with that. Just thought the comment from an OLD, OLD black man was uncommon for the times. (Especially in my AO) I think the Rodney King verdict, OJ verdict and others affected the justice system at all levels nationwide. Sure made the streets crazy for a while. Wasn't expecting the old man to say something like that.

LITO:  Skeeters bad there ?  Gotta go, one's flying off with my Four Runner.  Doubled yesterday with my 870 but they were too big for the Lab to fetch.


brian k. sain <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 12:56:27 (ZULU) 


   I believe the book your asking about is called "Point of Impact" by Stephen Hunter. He wrote a couple of others that follow up that story too. Black Light is more about his father and how he was killed. There is about 4 or 5 books out that deal with Bob and his father, all are a good read.

   Hunter also wrote a really good book called "Day before Midnight" its about a Russian SF team that takes over a missle sight in the USA to launch on Russia. The story is about a ex Viet Nam tunnel rat and a ex VC female tunnel rat who go in after them by crawling into cracks in the earth around the complex.

 Watched Band of Brothers last night and it was excellent!! I just hate waiting for a week inbetween segments.

Pat <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 13:20:04 (ZULU) 

Ken H,

Prayers and Get Well Soon to your wife.


I believe the Stephen Hunter book you are looking for is "Point of Impact."  One of the final scenes of this book is where Bob Lee is on top of a hill picking off the enemy.

I would love to shoot one more TOW!  Guess it will never happen though.

Semper Fi all

Paul <>
VA, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 13:26:38 (ZULU) 

Tony White <>...

Tony White's wife died this past Thursday.  Tony is a regular on this site, and most of the 50BMG sites.

He builds 50 BMG Caliber Barrett rifles, and is a regular face at 50 cal events.

This site extends it's condolances to you, Tony.


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 13:33:28 (ZULU) 


I am sorry for your loss and my prayers are with you and your family.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
VA, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 14:26:25 (ZULU) 


   So sorry to hear about your loss, my thoughts and prayers are with you.


  Hope the wife is doing better, Bolt is right, horses make good dog food or glue.

   Does anyone know the phone number for Kreiger barrels?? I couldn't find a web sight for them either. Thanks!!!

Pat <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 16:09:54 (ZULU) 

Ref: PDWs

Do military snipers carry both the SWS and a AR when in the field?

Ref: Jumping the SWS

How do you rig the SWS to jump?  Is the M1951 case used?  What has been the history of maintaining zero after a jump?


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 16:59:45 (ZULU) 

Tony:  Sorry for your loss.  Many prayers for you and yours.

Brian K. Sain

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:01:16 (ZULU) 

Hey fellas, anybody had any experience with extremely short .308 rifles i.e. 12-16in. barrels ? Maybe some of you former spec ops guys or barrel industry folk ?

PETER L:  Great joke.  Will have to borrow that one from you.

Ya'll ever tried to move a 1200 lb. gun safe in the rain ? Like dancing with an elephant in the elephant pen.  Lots of pushin', slippin' and slidin' but not much getting accomplished.


brian k. sain <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:19:27 (ZULU) 

Hi Guys, Has any one out there ever tried lightening an AICS, I'm sure I don't need all that alluminium !!

and how do you'll rate the Browning BDA 9mm as a side arm, its not a very common pistol over here, mine is the only one I have ever seen(it was an xmas present from my ex wife)thanks Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:21:55 (ZULU) 

Brian, you are welcome to pass the joke off as your own( as so will I), ref the short barrel 308's, they bark a bit loud, tend to try to jump out your hands,( depending on rifle weight) and velocity loss may be a factor to consider depending on how far you intend to shoot with it. of course if you intend to use sub-sonic ammo then you don't need all that tube, what about these varminting pistols, striker and so on, how long are the barrels on them, I've more experience with short barrel mausers in 8x57, I have cut lots of barrels down to 16", they are popular as a nachsuche (follow up) weapon for tracking wounded Wild Boar, velocity loss at these ranges isn't a factor and they make for a fast handling compact rifle, but they too bark and jump a lot, me, I prefer my pistol, it(9mm para) may not have the stopping power of a round nosed 8mm bullet from a rifle, but in these thickets where the Boars hide its faster and has more shots before I need to reload, I have shortened one 30-06 to 16" its also a mauser action, has a muzzle break and is a real tack driver, but its loud !! Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:44:52 (ZULU) 

Damn computer is playing up again !! Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 18:07:41 (ZULU) 

Question concerning Mauser SR97:

1) Is this rifle only avalible in .338?

2) Are they avalible in the us?

3) How much is retail price for the SR97?

4) Anybody have any input on this rifle system?

5) How is accuracy?

Thanks for the reply.

Please e-mail responses

Doug S. <>
Austin, Texas, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 18:26:58 (ZULU) 

Tony, very saddened for your loss.

If I or any of the other Rosterferians can do anything, you know how to get hold of us. We are one big extended family here and a loss to one of us is a loss to all of us.


Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 20:52:50 (ZULU) 

VLS owner.  Leave the thing alone!!  Take what you have and shoot it.  SPend your money on ammunition.  2.5lb trigger is too light.  Set the thing at 3.5 pounds and shoot it.  Remingtons have a bad history of slam firing on light triggers.  There may be some other opinions on this but 2.5 pounds is too light in my opinion.  My Armament Tech is at 3.2 pounds and is just fine.  If you grip the weapon properly you wont have any problems with 3.5 pounds.  If you fifi grip the thing even a 2.5 pound trigger gets heavy.

Don't pillar bed the thing or screw with anything else if its holding .75 moa now!!  You'll start on the highway to hell.  You'll want to change this and modify that.  Spend money on ammo and range time.

Just my humble opinion.


Gooch <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:05:30 (ZULU) 

Does anyone out there know what happened to Autauga Rifles? I was talking to Rusty about six months ago about doing some work on my Rem 700. I tried to call last week and all the numbers had been disconnected, and I can't seem to pull up the website. It's like the company just fell off the face of the earth (no forwarding numbers).

Any insight would be appreciated?


Todd Stevenson <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:33:06 (ZULU) 

For those of you interested, I have just cut the Emporium over to the new format as well.  Click on my name to read the old messages as they have not been migrated.  Only one posted on the new Emporium will appear there.

I've asked Ken to, if he thinks it necessary, just cut back to the old one - in case something really messes up.  Hopefully that is not necessary.

Next up will be deletion of messages!

Take care you guys (and gals)

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:33:28 (ZULU) 

PETER:  Back before 20in. bbl tactical rifles were cool, I had a company in Phoenix, Arizona known as AWC build me a 20 in. gun (unsuppressed). It shot fine. Of course the bench resters have shot 20 inchers for years.  The AWC guys also told me they were building some 14 in. guns for the US Navy SEALs.  They claimed the SEALs wanted them because they jumped easier on HALO Ops where the situation on the ground dictated a shorter range shot.  As a young SWAT pup, it sure got me to thinking even way back then.  (I was fresh off the handgun silhouette competition circuit at the time).  With the right stock and scope, I would think a semi heavy 16 in. bbl would be sweet to rappel with and handy as hell.  Maybe with a scout scope mount from AO or something similiar.  For cop distances, the target will never know it ain't a 26 in. tube.  As you stated, muzzle blast would certainly be a consideration, as would recoil.  I would think a brake would only make it louder.  I have extensive experience shooting Thompson Center Contenders and Remington XP 100s. w/ 10-14 in. bbls.  Personal experience has proven them very accurate (way past where they ought to be).  A full length 308 or 708 in a handgun is a handful to say the least and jump straight up when you touch them off.  I would think it would be much more manageable in a shoulder fired weapon.  Thinking of building another project gun but wanted to run it by this salty crowd first.  Component selection is imperative I think.  Leupold, Badger or AO, Rem, naturally.  But what stock ? Any ideas ? I have an AICS laying around and the Rem LTW is real close too.  I have one of those too but thought an even shorter one might be neat as hell. Just thinking out loud.  16 in. would avoid the Federal paperwork.  The DPMS Sweet Sixteen comes to mind but in a bolt gun.  Anybody jump in here anytime . . .


brian k. sain <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:45:40 (ZULU) 

Ref: Ammunition Progress

I just finished another range session with the new M40A1.

At 44.0 grains of Varget w/175 HPBT I'm getting 2,660 fps.

(virgin Winchester brass trimmed to 2.000 long and WLR primers)

The screens were set about 20 feet from the muzzle.  I'm shooting for the magical 2,675 fps mark.  Do you guys think I'm getting much velocity loss in those first 20 feet?

Groups averaged at .776 diameter.

I shot a .460 diameter group a while ago and just can't seem to do it again.  I can see how a guy could get all caught up in the benchrest thing.  I figure 3/4 MOA will do for now.

The wind blew over my new chrono screens.  No damage, they popped apart just like the handbook said they would.  I'm sandbagging the tripod legs from now on.  I don't want to push my luck.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 22:03:37 (ZULU) 

Andy's Dad...

you ain't loosing no 25fps in those feet.

Go to 44.2.


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 22:41:59 (ZULU) 

Howdy SC,

I need some help picking some gear; this is the first place I had in mind.  I am going to be participating in some extensive field training and have been given an equipment list.

Rucksack w/frame.  Looks like I'll be humpin about 50 lbs for 2-5 days & nights.  Who makes a good product?  Blackhawk, MOLLE?  Custom backpack... get a good frame from a hiking company and have someone put a ruck on it?

A good field knife.  gotta hump it, don't need a tree-cutter.  Benchmade Nimravus?  SOG Seal knife?

E-Tool... a few out there, who's works?

If anyone could provide any info I would really appreciate it.  I work in an urban environment and the Boy Scouts never taught me about tactical fieldgear, so any advice will be great.  Thank you in advance.


Tim <>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 22:59:23 (ZULU) 

Andy's Dad,

I'm using 45.00 in Winchester cases and WLR primers for 2702/9es/4sd.

Barrel length is 23.5, chamber is .343 neck and SAAMI min spec dimension.

5 round groups run in the low .4's.

Varget wil get you there.....1 tenth  grain at a time.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 00:07:36 (ZULU) 


 Our sincerest condolences and prayers to both you and your family from the Sniper Country Staff.


 Read Slugboys Article and peruse the Hot Tips & Cold Shots section.

I'd get a 4-6" field knife KABAR, Buck, etc. etc.

  Brian Sain why don't you burn him some of your ideas?


Master Rick??


Kevins(Andys Dad)

 Go to 15' from muzzle, try FederalS Gold Medal primers, and Federal Brass. Why do i feel I am repeteing myself here???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 00:16:35 (ZULU) 


Tony, sorry to hear of your loss. Let me/us know if there is anything we can do to assist. Myself and the staff at Willamette Small Arms Academy send our sincere condolences.

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, 97326 - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:19:15 (ZULU) 


Best pack for 2-5 days? I use and have used an Alice Medium in the soft configuration. If you need more gear than that will hold I use an Alice Large with frame. Frankly, the more expensive packs are not worth the money, IMHO. There are a few exceptions.

My personal favorite is a bosomy amazon type "camp follower/cook/sleeping bag warmer" who will carry your pack for you and let you take care of the hunting chores. Blond, redhead, or brunette...your choice. Of course at 'Litos age he prefers grey...;-)

Explain to wife or girlfriend that: "Hey, she came with the sleeping bag"!

'Lito my cat told me to say that! He's been sharpening his claws and wants to meet you...

Semper Fi,


(Who wants a Mountain Lion for a "kitty")

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:27:35 (ZULU) 

Andy's Dad...

Stay the course on Win brass and primers... Winchester is the best Domestic brass available, only Lapua and Norma are better... and Fed Primers have soft cups, making it look like you have pressure, when you don't.

Wes... (Nom De' Plume ;)

At my age, I prefer bottled readheaded floozies... cheap and easy (I ain't gots no time for no long courtships ;)... and I got some VERY LONG CLAWS of my own ;)

Bruce Robinson...

Can you get 3200fps out of a Hornet??  I'll let you know on Friday (along with pictures ;)


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:27:57 (ZULU) 

Tony - So very sorry to hear of your loss.  My condolences goes out to you and your family.

Kevin - WE used to bag the SWS and carry in hand our CAR-15.  That said, we carried Win M70 or Rem 700s.  these donot make good first contact weapons.  The guys that carreid the M21s did not carry any ohter weapons.  Today it is up to the sniper and we are issued both the M24 and the M4 with various SOPMOD "accessaries".

On jumping we use the 1950 weapons container for static line and jump it open for HALO or HAHO.  We use Bushnell boeresights to register the zero's grid reference and then after the jump check for error.  We jump five times a year with up to 24 students, depending in the number that "opps" out of the course, and have only noted a radical zero change three times.  Once was a weapon that freefell, on its own, from about 1000 ft.  Another was a toss up as to the jump or the tumble down an embankment.  While the third was only contributed to the jump but he lowered his weapon "poorly" by allowing it to hit the ruck late and thus the ground on the first bounce.

Brian - Depending on the range, some units use modified pistols as sniper weapon systems.  The French, Isrealis, and the US to name but a few.  The short barrel is for optimal long range shooting past 600.  If the shooting is to be shorter then the shorter barrel will work just fine with the normal drop off of muzzle velocity.  The real problem is the visual and noise signature that the short barrel will present to the enemy in a tactical sense.  This includes both day and night signature.  "Lovely flame you are throwing there mate."  :-)

Gooch - Agree 100% on the bullets and practice.  Many use the extra money hoping for an improvement that would have been made through more shooting.  They then lower their shooting time due to the custom work.  In my opinion too many use too light of a trigger pull and it causes them problems.  Usually by tightening up the trigger and going back to basics the shooter will shoot better and safer.  I have found, that in most cases, when a .5 to .75 moa gun doesn't shoot where the shooter wanted it to, it is because it shot EXACTLY where the shooter pointed it.  :-)

Tim - Buy a KBar, piss on those expensive knives that people want to stick others with.  Do you need an e tool?  If so then a standard military folder works fine and it is cheap and compact.  They also make a dandy weapon when needed.  Know of a dude (Guys, the original was the typo of a tired dud) that got the Congressional by whacking a bunch of Chinese during the Korean war with one. of the older models.  Rucks, personal preference depending on how much you need to carry.  BlackHawk makes some good gear but you will pay for it.  Actually correct packing does more for you then an expensive ruck.  What is the temp range for the trip, mission, etc.  Email me with more details and I will try ot help out.

Well got to go guys.  Weed out some of the guys tomorrow possibly.  have the Sniper marks exam and if there is wind it can be fun! Humidity has been a pain, expecially for an old fart like myself.

Hold Hard guys and have good "clean?" fun.  Oh yeah, agree on the blond/brunett/redhead bearer!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:47:03 (ZULU) 


Condolences, sir. There's not much more I can say than that (unfortunately).

Roger C <>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:53:50 (ZULU) 

Thanks to everyone who sent well wishes. I have no words right now, maybe later, but I just can't do it now.

I want to thank you all though. I haven't had time to reply to any mails. Don't think they didn't go unread. I read them all.

Thanks again.



       You will be a part of me forever,


Tony <>
Murfreesboro, Tn, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 02:18:57 (ZULU) 


 sorry to hear of your loss, thoughts and prayers are with you.........

marc <>
pa, usa - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 04:27:16 (ZULU) 

Tony, my condolences to your family.

Anyone with dope for a 300 mag, 190 @2961, from 100 up to 1000.  I realize I have to go out and shoot it to see what MY rig will do.  Just looking for a starting point to build on.  Also if anyone's interested got some pics of the camo paint job I did on my Win 70 22-250 HB Varmint.  Thanks for your help.  Joe

joe <>
Turlock, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 05:31:34 (ZULU) 


Tim, I agree with Rick. The knife you carry will be a tool, as much as a knife. IMHO, the K-bar is without equal. As I write this a presentation K-bar and plaque is on my wall, that one of my units gave me. My REAL K-bar is in the top of my parachute/gear pack ready for recall from retirement...

E-tools. If you can get the old style wood handled one. You don't pinch the shit out of yourself and the handle style makes it perform better in the weapons category.

One of my First Sergeants had three confirmed in Vietnam with one and a Silver Star to go with it. He was knick-named "E-tool" Koontz. Good man.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 05:41:14 (ZULU) 

Tactical Intervention Specialists Site Overhaul

Just a quick note to let you all know that Mike "Undude" Miller's Tactical Intervention Specialists website has just been overhauled.  There is a new look and feel to it.  I am soliciting feedback at if you have any comments or better yet criticism which I can use to better it.

Please have a look at

Also Mike is going to be releasing a new sling this month.. ya might wana watch the site for that!

Thanks 'Gentlemen'!

Charles - Webmaster For Nor-Cal Precision <>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 08:23:48 (ZULU) 

Ref: Load Development


      Go to 44.2

      Wilco, Out

Ref: He's Growing Up

Tonight is the first night of the Sporter Rifle Season at the club.

Andy told me last night he had made plans to spend the evening with his girlfriend.  I guess that's it then.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 10:43:41 (ZULU) 

Been gone for a couple days, and catching up now...damn.

Tony, my prayers are with you and your family.  Sorry I can't do more than express this.

I have a "USMC" model Kabar, it's as sexy as a claw hammer, but works perfectly well, is KISS simple, good quality, and very reasonably priced.  You really can't go wrong with it IMHO.

Recieved my "clearance special" Starlight double rifle case.  Very impressive.  It holds up to Sarge's SC review in every way.  The defect that gives it the special pricing is almost invisible, and Brack Wilson was exemplary to deal with.  The included instruction sheet and knife to custom cut the foam is a nice touch....details like that seem to be an exception and not the norm nowadays.  I WILL be getting more.

Mike O...I have the very same 2.5-10X42mm varmint/tactical.  They are a little rough on the outside, but the glass seems fairly good even disregarding the price.  It has mil dots, and THAT's a start for learning how to use 'em.  Plus, I didn't have to get real nervous about painting it!  Like you, I am going to upgrade when I can, in fact a pair of MK4 rings are sitting here right now.

Marco, that focus adjustment based auto-ranging/targeting feature on your night sight sounds dreamy.  Has anyone tried that with a day sight?  Maybe it wouldn't be precise enough for sniping missions, but what about a medium to long range battle rifle with backup irons for close in quick work?  Just curious.  Perhaps having to focus for different distances is too inefficient.

Ken, hope the Major gets better soon.

All for now, take care hawgs.

Geoff M <>
USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 11:45:37 (ZULU) 

OK guys.  It's ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two planes into the world Trade center in NY and one into the Pentagon.  Just reported black smoke from the Pentagon.  Best wishes and prayers to all working in these locations and their families.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
Reston, VA, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 13:47:05 (ZULU) 

Question about tumbler media and barrel wear. I know you guys were talking about possibles problems with walnut media but what about corn cob media? Any problems there? I never really noticed any media on my cases or even in them that might do any damage. Not even much dust. So what do you guyus think?

Well we just went to Threat Con Charlie so I gotta run. Can you believe all these attacks!

Rob01 <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 13:51:55 (ZULU) 

This is NOT a joke...

This morning, two large twin engined jet airliners attacked, in Kamakizi fasion, the World Trade Center buildings in New York... both building were struck about 2/3rd's the way up, tearing huge holes into the buildinge.  The first was at 9:02 AM, the second was about 18 minutes after.

The second plane was caught on video, and appeared to go right into the building, and then explode.

Both buildings are on fire, and the smoke is visible for 30 miles...

A third plane has struck the Pentagon, and the Pentagon is burning...

... and a forth plane is believed to have crashed near the White house.

Again... this is NOT A JOKE.

The FBI suspects the Benladen (sp?) terrorist to be behind it.

When are we going to learn to tighten our borders before the horse gets stolen??


CatShooter <>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:01:53 (ZULU) 


When we get serious about securing them, of course.

I wonder what else is going on that hasn't been discovered yet.

Never mind, as I type, an unconfirmed report by AP via ABC of a car bomb at State.

Anyone have any hard info besides the TV repeating itself every 5 minutes?  This isn't over yet.


Geoff M <>
USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:27:41 (ZULU) 

One of the World Trade Center buildings has collapsed into a pile of rubble... the other is burning out of control.

As I typed this, the second Trade Center has collapased... they are both history.  The buildings held 50,000 people, and there was little time to evacuate...

Yes... a car bomb went off at the Dept of State.

This cannot be the work of a few radicals from a basement in Brooklyn... this is the real thing.

Get your hip boots out.


CatShooter <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:30:39 (ZULU) 

All readers,

Listening to the radio here at work, this is very disastrous to the US as a whole.  ter king about the Commander in Chief, I'm expecting to get called back to duty.  Whenever someone hears about whether or not inactive reserves are getting called back in, please post it.  Thanks in advance.  Maybe Binladen will finally get taken out!


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:37:50 (ZULU) 


Our prayers are with you. Sorry we can't do more.

Andy's Dad, don't worry, that girl thing is only temporary. After a few years with one he'll be looking for an excuse to get away for awhile ; )

Any of yous guys have a trick for getting scope crosshairs vertical/horizontal right the first time? I know how to check if they are by dialing up and checking to see if the poi is vertical of the origonal poi.

Can you believe those ragheads?

I don't think we need to close any more bases, I think we should move them to our borders!

4i's <>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:39:19 (ZULU) 

Tony - my condolences

My prayers are with all the victims of the terrorist attacks in the US

I can only hope for a swift determination of the originators so they can be dealt with.

Kevin - of the GWN <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 15:21:13 (ZULU) 

Upgrade to Threat Con Delta here. Not good.

Rob01 <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 15:42:25 (ZULU) 


Let's keep the "what if's" and conjecture on this mornings terrorist attacks to a minimum. We're gonna need the bandwidth.

To those who have been lost our heartfelt condolences and prayers for their families.

To those wounded a prayer for speedy recovery and return to their loved ones.

To the bastards that did this...the gloves are off.

As Yamamoto said, after Pearl Harbor: "I fear we have only succeeded in waking a sleeping giant".

Semper Fi,


(RetiYamaMajor/pissed off in Blodgett, Oregon)

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, 97326 - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 15:44:35 (ZULU) 

News update from my better half.

All military installations on high security status. All non-essential personnel sent home.  Navy ship in chicago area at Great Lakes Naval Recruit Training depot on ready status also.  Dept of Veterans affairs hospitals on ready status nationwide in case of need for beds.

God bless us all.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
Kenosha, WI, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 16:21:58 (ZULU) 

My thoughts and prayers go out to all victims (and their families and friends )of this terrible, terrible cowardly attack on the USA. Here at the European Space Operations Centre we are all in a state of shock and disbelief, a guy on my team has been franticaly trying to contact his Brother who works either in or around the World Trade Centre, so this outrage is being felt not only in the US but around the world, shocking, terrible, I'm speechless, this is an act of war in my book and it makes me sick.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 17:27:13 (ZULU) 

To all you assholes that might be a party to todays festivities who lurk on this site,

Stand by....Payback is a medevac.


Gooch <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 17:41:34 (ZULU) 

Brian, short barrels.. I have a Rem 700 with a  20"Heym barrel, 1 in 10 twist, it is extreemly accurate and depending which country I am in, it is at times suppressed(where legal).

What I would put together in your case would be a Rem 700, with a heavey barrel, 16" long, 1 in 10 twist, threaded for a silencer, I would put this in an AICS folding stock, I would lighten the alluminium chassis to save weight, Badger mounts+rings, and a Schmidt & Bender 1.5-6x42 PMII. The suppressor will reduce recoil, eliminate muzzle flash and blast.

 Question how short a barrel can you get in the AICS before it doesn't clear the stock, I will measure it when I get home, also if you are worried about barrel lenght regulations, fix the suppressor permanently, but then it makes the thing long again, isn't there an article on a sniper pistol here some where?  Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 17:45:54 (ZULU) 

Hogs -

  Time for our nation to whip some responsible ass for this one.

I had the Major down at DeWitt army hospital (Ft Belvoir, Va) for a followup appointment this a.m. They were calling for equipment, wheelchairs, etc, over the intercom. When we were leaving - they went into their emergency procedures mode, calling all personnel.

Cell and switched public telco services in our area have been redirected....

checking gps.....

Hang tuff hogs, check your zero's.....

ken hunter <>
nokesville, va, US of A - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:08:55 (ZULU) 

Andy just called me at the office.  He said,"What about uncle Mike?" (who works in the Pentagon)  I said, "I don't know buddy, we'll have to wait and see."  God, I wish he never had to worry about such a thing.  God be with you Mike.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:34:32 (ZULU) 

More from the fed.


> September 11, 2001


> WASHINGTON - Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony J. Principi has

> directed the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to adopt a special

> "continuity of operations" plan in the wake of terrorist attacks in New

> York and Washington.

> "All VA medical facilities are open. All VA employees are safe. All VA

> resources will be dedicated to helping our nation through this emergency,"

> Principi said.

> In the immediate aftermath of the bombings, VA medical facilities in New

> York, Washington, Baltimore and Altoona, Pa., were readied to handle

> casualties. VA personnel are trained to back up the nation's medical

> network in emergencies.

> VA's headquarters near the White House was evacuated Tuesday morning and

> key management personnel shifted to an undisclosed location.

> "One of VA's missions has always been to provide medical backup when

> community resources are overwhelmed," Principi said. "We stand ready to

> provide all assistance through this tragedy."



> Christine R. Schlater

> Secretary, Medical Center Director

> Commercial:  847.578.3700

> Fax:  847.578.3727


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
Kenosha, WI, US of A - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:35:21 (ZULU) 

Cry havoc and lose the dogs of war.

Steve Dzupin <DZUPPI@AOL.COM>
New Joisey, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:45:58 (ZULU) 

Had two friends in the World Trade.  NYPD / ATF.

Give blood.


brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 19:11:51 (ZULU) 

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

Fitz. <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 19:27:07 (ZULU) 

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

"And when they slip into that awful darkness, let them go with hunger of body, hunger of soul, and hunger of heart, that few, nay, that none of that rightful food of war be left, and that all will be witness to what hath prevailed."

                           ...Paul J. Coburn - 11Sept01

CatShooter <>
Even the cats weap today, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 19:49:03 (ZULU) 


CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 20:24:58 (ZULU) 

Hope eveyone here is ok and freinds & family.

Go git them scumbag bastards and dont stop til its done.

To all gettin called up God bless.



Gavan Willis <>
rainin again , downunder, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 20:59:33 (ZULU) 


Why give them a medevac? Just a body bag will do!

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Oklahoma, USA by GAWD!! - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:04:55 (ZULU) 

This is a goddamn disgrace.  Pardon my french here but I spent all day today clearing out Philadelphia's major historical sites as we also felt that we could be in danger.  As police Lt. you need to keep yourself professional but al that went out the window after seeing the pictures I saw today.  I hope and pray (and im an atheist) for all the families of those injured and hurt.  I'm even considering going into the army recruiting offices and enlisting.  The anger and emotion I feel right not is pure and total hatred toward the middle east.  I was also told that the plane that crashed down near pittsburg was shot down by our military because that plane was headed for the sears tower in chicago.  I believe our military made the right move and hats off to them for that.  What angered more about this act of cowardnice was the cheering and celebrating they are doing in Palestine.  The free world needs to get together and do everyone a favor and destroy and bomb the middle east til the is nothing left. This has gone to far and the repercussions need to be severe.

To all my fellow Americans,

Lt. Chris Fenico

"we will move on"

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:19:06 (ZULU) 

Please fly your AMERICAN FLAG! in support of our People.

TonyM <>
USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:25:53 (ZULU) 

I was also under the impression that that plane was shot down but have also heard that that is not the case.  Eye witnesses have reported that plane was flying erratically before it crashed.  Sounds to me like the crew fought back if this is the case.  Either way they were unable to kill even more people on the ground, God bless those innocent that have been killed and DAMM those that did it!!

Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:43:28 (ZULU) 

Question is how the terrorist whent through 3 airport security systems without a hitch?

HK <>
LA, CA, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:04:55 (ZULU) 

It has started!!!

God Bless America!


TonyM <>
FL, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:14:20 (ZULU) 


CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:35:41 (ZULU) 

To all of you across the pond:

I whish to express my most sincere sympathy for you all, especially those of you who have lost loved ones, regarding todays tragic events. I am sure I also speak on behalf of Marco, who is currently practicing in Germany.

I just can't believe what I'm seeing on TV. I've been on top of the twins, have seen just how many people work inside them and now they're gone. I have a hard time coming to terms with it.

This is clearly the work of madmen, well organised, but that doesn't make 'em less insane. If at all possible, I feel the same frustration and anger as you guys.

It's been said many times on this Roster: "Pity the man who has never known anything worth dying for." I guess PAYBACK might just be that thing...

Hang in there, bro's.


Stefan <>
Wanting some payback, anywhich way, just like the rest of you.... - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:40:15 (ZULU) 

I post rarely here. My contribution to SC takes place behind the scenes, and frankly I like it that way. But I just can't hold my tongue today.

I shudder to think of what this attack could do to our freedom. It's only a matter of time before the usual suspects start calling for additional circumventions of our rights to privacy, property, and arms. God help us thwart the impending attacks of our own people.

God be with the thousands who undoubtedly perished today. Let us honor them by bringing swift, decisive, and devastating retribution to those responsible; and by holding tight to the very thing our enemies envy us most: liberty.

Don't forget, gentlemen: tragic as it seems right now many, many heroes will show themselves on this day.

Roger C <>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:47:01 (ZULU) 

Hello, my computer crashed and I finally got it back up and running.  The problem is I was looking at getting a M24 and I have lost all contact info with the guy I was talking to.  I sent inquiries to a couple guys that I found that made them, (was not TBA) and no replies.. The link is to the pictures I was sent by the builder, hopefully one of you guys will recognize the pics and be able to point me in the right direction. If one of you guys have a hot tip where I can get a M24 or a M40A1, let me know, I will be getting two of one or one of each.  I have a FFL and have two eager customers.  Thanks, Josh

Click on my name, thats the link.

JoshC <>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 23:53:15 (ZULU) 

I don't know if United Flt. 93 went down as a result of crew struggling to regain control, or because of military intervention. Nor do I care.

The cause was hijacking by cowardly bastards.

What I do care about is the fact that a friend of mine was on that flight.

Rest in Peace, Linda. May God welcome you.

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 00:22:11 (ZULU) 

The shit has definitely hit the fan.

Part of SORT Team (NC-1 DMAT) deployed at 19:00, my team held back for now. Will advise if I have to deploy. Can't say any more on sitrep at the present time.


Can't be any more pissed off, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 00:25:40 (ZULU) 


Please accept my sympathies.

I myself am waiting for word on a very close friend who works in the Pentagon.

Roger C <>
Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 00:26:43 (ZULU) 

JoshC, I don't recognize the pics but you might want to check out George Gardner at under the precision rifles icon. He's got a great rep and answers e-mails and calls. I belive his wait is only about 3 months for a rifle too which isn't bad at all for a custom. His prices are pretty good also. Drop him a line. He's got my rifle now bedding it in my McMillan HTG stock. He actually called me when he got the rifle to let me know it made it to him alright. That's service.

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 01:36:29 (ZULU) 

In my several years in SE Asia, I never hated the VC or NVA. After today, I can honestly say I feel nothing but hatred for the arab world. We have no friends there, only enemies. May God forgive them, because I don't think I can.

Pat T

Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:08:13 (ZULU) 

To all who are called:

Keep it tight. Keep it smart. Do what you were trained to do.

God Bless You.

I myself am praying for the first time in a few years.

buk out.

buk <>
numb, Arkansas, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:25:03 (ZULU) 

Bruce, my deepest sympathies...........


I can't say this is/was a surprise........

I only hoped it would never be SO bad......

BUT, that said, it's now past, it's been done........

Nothing can change the events of today.....

But, as Gooch said, it is way PAST time for some serious pay back......

If, and when this bunch of maniacs are discovered...........WE as Americans should DEMAND that the Fed's GET the hellfire and brimstone box lunch ready..........

This can NO longer be "Strictly Limited", to ONLY the one's organizing the attacks........

The countries where they train, and are provided aid, and shelter need to be WIPED OUT.

Enemies understand only ONE thing, and that is STRENGTH........

Waiting around for several years to get a handful of thugs to trial is a joke.......please stand with me, by DEMANDING that our Government hit these pricks with everything we have got.............ASAP.

Sorry for the long diatribe, but this is a very tenuous, and devastating situation, and the GLOVES gotta' come off..........

My prayer's, to ALL you LEO's, and EMT's, and Firefighters who have lost countless brethern today in the service of our country........GOD BLESS them, and especially their families.

This also includes many of us, who will discover we have lost friends and loved ones, that we haven't yet a clue.........

May GOD bless us, in this one of our darkest hours........


Terry <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:35:38 (ZULU) 

Two Shoes...

I'm with you brother.

We don't need no steeenkin' 10 year trial of 2 flunkies, like Lockerbee... these slobs don't care about that stuff, they're martyrs.

As a great philosopher (and now governor of Minnesota) once said... "It's Payback time" (Predator).

They will breed faster than we can try them in court... we need to break the nest.


CatShooter <>
Even the cats weap today, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:49:17 (ZULU) 

The prayers of myself and my family go out to all those who lost thier lives today, may God greet them with open arms.

To all the framilies and friend of the victims may God be with you in your time of need.

My heart goes out to all of you.

There is a special place in my heart for all the EMS,Police,and firefighter who gave thier lives in the line of duty.

All that are working in that hell...You are true HEROS....... God be with you and grant you safety...

To those who will be given the job of finding these bastards and putting an end to thier terror......Be safe, be smart and most of all SHOOT TO KILL!!!!!!!

To all of you please give blood for those who need it.

Michael Odom <>
Salem, Or, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 04:23:45 (ZULU) 

First, my condolences to anyone who may have lost friends or family in the cowardly heartless attacks on our great country today.


Second, my thoughts and prayers are with my brother law enforcement officers that are involved in any way with the actions today as well as those brave fire and emergency medical personnel.                  .

For any of you who may be called to duty to go hunt this *hitbird rag head pieces of *hit's down. Happy Hunting!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make sure they get what they have coming to them, and i hope we keep the proverbial "gloves" off till we get things done right...


For some reason this afternoon when i got out of the house finally away from all the news...i just couldnt stop listening to a great cd i own by the great Lee Greenwood....and one of songs made popular during the Gulf war just had to keep playing again and again......GOD BLESS THE USA.....


One last thing..did anyone else wanna shoot their tv when they showed those palestinian dirt balls...celebrating this cowardly act?

Marc <>
Pa, United States of America....GOD BLESS IT!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 04:46:09 (ZULU) 

No medevacs...just ziplock bags.  I want Afganistan incinerated, western Iraq incinerated, Baghdad gone, Kabul gone, Sudan incinerated, Kartoom gone, the Syrian Intelligence HQ gone, a ten mile buffer zone established between Israel and the rest of the worthless douchbag leeches in the Middle east where anything inside it is exterminated like roaches, the cities of Balbeek and Tehran incinerated and anyone and anything associated with terrorism within the last ten years gone.  No questions asked.  Four Trident D5s will do it... 40 nukes.  Just to show we're pissed. After that, a Really New World Order, where it's my way or the highway. Fuck with me and you're history.  I don't think they realize what they have done.

Former Intel Commander, USN

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 05:14:05 (ZULU) 


Why waste money on bags?

Just let the scavengers pick their bones clean and the sun bleach them out.

jc (Former Army Intel)

jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 05:31:26 (ZULU) 

Bill, i second your motion...all those in favor say I

marc <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 05:31:40 (ZULU) 

TO my American brothers,

I've been recieving mail from some moron named Dan who seems to think my opinions of reprecussions are barbaric and question how I became a police Lt.  I'm sitting here reading many other of your posts and find that I am not alone and thank u for that.  Our country was hit hard today but we are far from being knocked out.  Justice will come and it will be swift and merciless on the cowardly acts of the middle east.  I leave with a quote from the Admiral of Japan in the movie Pearl Harbor..." I fear all we have done is awaking a sleeping giant"

This is the fear the Middle east and Afganistan should be feeling now.

Keep the Faith and God Bless all of the victims and their families.

Lt. Chris

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 06:46:40 (ZULU) 

Christian F...

>"I've been recieving mail from some moron named Dan..."<

I don't know what you received from Dan, but I can assure you, he is no moron.  He is one of the most educated people I know.  You and he may have differences of opinion on this issue, but he was "smart" enough, and gentlemanly enough to keep it off the roster, and limit it to e-mail, instead of flaming you in public.

If you are having an e-mail disagreement with someone, keep it there, and don't drag it up to the roster and whine about it.

... and don't get your history from the movies.


CatShooter <>
Even the cats weap today, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 11:17:04 (ZULU) 


Just like the attack on Pearl Harbor, the immediadate emotional reaction was simple.

But in years after, we learned that there was a great deal of warning that we didn't pay head to... we knew that the Japanise were going to attack us somewhere, just not where.

We have been passivly letting the "suspects" do these kinds of attacks for years, with no resolve to stop it... we knew who was behind the Lockerbee attack, the the marine barracks, and all the rest of them, and we did little.

The "suspects" made an announcement last month that they would do something "REALLY BIG"... and the world paid no heed.

The real price we paid for the Viet Nam war, was we, as a nation, lost the heart to fight... we let  50 thugs drive away a navel ship in Haiti... and I won't waste my time talking about Mogadishu, Somalia.

It's time that we took the Isreali approach.

You hit us, we shoot you... you shoot us, we bomb you, 10 for one, or 1000 for one...

The world has band together (as in WW2) to bring this to an end, or we will be fighting these pigs in courts for centuries to come.


CatShooter <>
Even the cats weap today, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 11:33:34 (ZULU) 


Amen! We know who they are, where they live, and what time they take a dump. Why they aren't already stuffed and hanging on a wall in the oval office is completely beyond me. I can just see GWB ordering it now, like a Gary Oldman scene in the movie "The Professional":

GWB: Bring me everyone.

JCOS: What do you mean, everyone?


Roger C <>
Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 11:48:39 (ZULU) 

Bruce, please accept my condolences as well, FWIW.


We are at a for-real pivotal point in our history.  If these scum want to wage war, then we should gladly oblige, and do it, all the way, with the anger, righteousness, and pure motivation that only we as Americans can do it.  And that includes ANY and ALL governments and terrorist groups that have aided and abetted these acts through the years.  In this I am sure we are all in agreement.

I pray we are up to the task.  We need to teach a fatal and permanent lesson, and do it right now, or who knows what the next event will be.

Tears are being shed, and prayers said in our household for our Country and the victims of this attack, both innocents and rescuers.  Many of our forums have lost members and friends of members.

May this becomes a turning point that helps America regain her power, liberty, sense of patriotism, and sense of purpose.  Let this renewal become a lasting memorial to those who have perished.  It is up to us, who have kept to the ideals of liberty and our beloved Country, to lead the way.

To those getting called up, God bless you, and Good Hunting.

Geoff M <>
USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 12:23:04 (ZULU) 

Bruce, my friend, I am so sorry for your loss of a friend.  My prayers are with you.

Tony White, my friend, no words can describe how you must feel with such a great loss.  I am with you in spirt, prayers and thoughts.  One day at a time, you are a great man.

Terrorists, Eat Shit and Die!  Hope you are gutt shot everyone.


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 12:50:35 (ZULU) 

Hi guys.  I want to share something with all of you.  I work at AOL.  Yesterday we were evacuated due to a "viable threat of attack".  Today we are back at work but with enhanced security.  Now we are hearing that there is the possibility of further attacks and our campus is locked down much tighter.

I fear that this is not over and I ask that all of you send your prayers for those who have suffered in this tragedy.

We are at war gentlemen.  Pray for victory.


BCR #226 <>
Sterling , Virginia, United States - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 13:01:28 (ZULU) 

In the aftermath of yesterdays events, all I will say is this:

Since these terrorists see fit to wear a bandage about their head, let us give them ample opportunity to use it!

Steve <>
STUNNED and PISSED OFF, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 13:50:44 (ZULU) 

These guys were tight.  Thier funding, intel, training, skills pool and overall organization imply the intimate complicity of at least one nation.  If Ben Laudin is involved, he is thier designated cut-out.

Ten years after Khadaffi blew up Pan Am 103 he coughed up two fall guys, and Clinton had State run cover for him.  When they hit us, Clinton would order some lube-job missle strike, bite his lip and declare victory.  Clinton would get his photo-op, the Terrs went home to play hero, and they would both be big winners.  The top dogs in this op think that's the template we'll follow here.

I think that we are in more of a "Boil thier heads in saltwater, dip them in tar, and impale them on pikes" mode.

Let's see who is right.

My deepest respects to the passengers of the plane that went down in Pennsylvania.  If there's a Valhalla, those guys earned thier place.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 14:34:40 (ZULU) 

Thanks Mike. I appreciate the words. And thanks to all who sent well wishes, I couldn't respond to them all, for that I'm sorry. Don't think they went unnoticed.

Tony <>
Murfreesboro, Tn, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 15:07:02 (ZULU) 

Don't know how many of you are familiar with Fred Reed's weekly column but this is worth a read concerning yesterday's events.

jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 15:31:07 (ZULU) 

Yesterday's attack is by far not over, the attacks will continue; maybe not today, but tomorrow or next year.  The personal losses, alone, have been staggering. The financial losses, the stalling of certain markets, the destruction of dozens of companies, and the killing of thousands of professionals, will have an extreme impact on this nation.

Many people, including myself, lost someone or something in the attacks.  But the losses won't stop there.  The impact to our country has yet to really be felt. The shock has yet to set in.

We must immediately provide disincentive to these attacks such that no one, no fanatic, will ever dare try again.  We were mercilessly attacked once, but Japan is now a friendly nation.  We did it once; we can do it again, and we must, for our sake and our country's sake.

We have to stop snuggling with these terrorist nations that sell us their oil, and, instead, produce our own sources of oil.  We have the oil; we have simply let the eco-terrorists stop us from drilling for it.

We have become a nation of sissies.  We bow to every foreign and domestic terrorist.  It is high time we stop being lazy and afraid, and stop leading our lives through fear and ignorance, and, instead, fight back.  Our cowardice is killing us, literally.

For those that say we should negotiate, or condemn and hold court, please, by all means, go to these terrorist nations and do so.  We’ll start digging your graves.  Negotiations by a number of skilled and determined peacemakers have failed for over thirty years.  These outlaw nations do not respect us, or fear us, and only wish and do us harm.  The time for negotiations is over.

We cannot tolerate, any further, these attacks simply because we cannot hold a single country or persons responsible.  Instead, we should hold all countries that contributed to these attacks responsible and wage war against them.  They must be forced to surrender, unconditionally, and without mercy.  We have the capability to bring these “outlaw nations” to their knees, and we must.

It is time to end the terror and fight back.  It is time we stand our ground and stand up for America!   It is time for something we have resisted to do in the name of peace, a peace we do not enjoy.  It is time for war!

Hank <>
Soggy Wheaties, Anger, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 16:34:38 (ZULU) 

To Tony,Bruce and all those whom have lost loved ones in recent days- My prayers for comfort are with you.

To the rescue crews- God bless and be with you.

To those charged with finding and dealing with these people- God give you strength and guidence.

For now, all I can do is hang my head. I didn't know anyone involved in this but for two days I have been unable to think of anything other than the suffering of the victims and families. I hold my children close and struggle for answers to the question of how I can prepare them for the realities of our world.

Take care all.

Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 16:42:09 (ZULU) 

Af GONE istan:

Those bags of shit harbored Bin Laden.  We should not limit our objective to Bin Laden, but its his whole organization, which has no structured command and control like most people think.  It has to be a broad paint and no rules.

And as far as for the Palestinians dancing and cheering in the street, thats what good intentions get you when you deal with ragheads.

Add an I and and E to shit, and you have an arab (shiite).

The Phoenix Project comes to mind.

Jefe <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 17:31:10 (ZULU) 

I just got back from my Wednesday morning client in NY, and two of the gals were out... one lost a husband (a cop), and one lost a brother (a fire guy)...

I would love to see the Bush administration have the same resolve for America that we had on December 7th, 1941.

These pigs deserve to be buried face down in pig shit, in unmarked common pits, with a sign on it saying "GOD, Pass this place by... there's nothing here worth your time".

I know it's too early to know for sure who did it... and I hate to jump to conclusions, but I'll bet I can figure it out in about ten seconds.

On a somewhat better note, I just got a call from Lupita, and after the past few years of fighting with them... they have a bunch of NEW cams for the M3 scopes... I'm getting a whole box full next week to test... first will be new ones for the M3-LR, and with MK4-M3's to follow.  I can't tell you more (and don't want to now)... but you'll hear it here first, when it's "oh-fish-ul".

If they don't have it right, I spoke to a very well known scope company (who I also can't name) that is very interested in making GOOD cams for both M3's. It's been a long hard battle!


CatShooter <>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 18:14:56 (ZULU) 

Zealots can't be reasoned with, they only understand the rule of force.  That said, we must apply this force with exacting precision.

As things stand today, I see no cure for fundamentalist terrorism (it's been around for a looong time), but we can damn well show them we're going to do more than arrest a handful of lackeys and pay for their incarceration.

My anger at those who supported and carried out this tragedy is only matched by my sorrow for those who've lost co-workers, friends, and loved ones.  God be with you.

Steve "El Roto" G. <>
Carrollton , TX, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 18:57:04 (ZULU) 

I agree with the Israli approach.  While I do think a few judiciously placed Cruise missles would be a good touch, I have long been an advocate of "counter-terrorizing".  Although I know we would lose some brothers in the effort I think its time for ground forces to be used in some surgical strikes so we can drag out the bodies (payback for Somalia), stack'em up (pay back for Beruit) and then light'em off (payback for Desert one). You do us, we do you plus interest.

I think its important that we stick to military or terrorist targets, avoid colateral damage as much as we can and show these pig fuckers that they can't hide.  What we need is a Ross Perot type to fund some independant actions with intell assests provided by the US or Israeli Gvt.  By the way my email is posted here:-)


Gooch <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 19:03:06 (ZULU) 

We need to determine what group did this, hunt them down, behead them and leave their bodies in the street as carrion. If they're muslim, dip the sword in pig's blood before the beheading.

As for the country that harbored the vermin:

Their government buildings, military bases and industrial base should be bombed to rubble. If ANYONE protests we should remind them that this was an act of war against the sovereign soil and citizens of the United States and ask if they wish to ally themselves with the agressors because we still have unused ordnance we can send their way.

The price for harboring terrorists must be so great that nobody is willing to risk it.

God speed and good hunting.

TheOtherChris <>
USofA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 19:08:38 (ZULU) 

We are all aware of what has happened and many times it has been said to not hold a grudge against people that have the appearance of being Palistinean, Muslim, whatever.  I have just heard on the radio, somebody called in and was talking about their neighbor who put out their Palistinean flag and a bowl of candy in apparent celebration of what has happened.  This is an outrage in my opinion and if these people do not want any harm done to them, they better duck and cover!  The American people will not stand for this very long I feel.  I'm not making any threats, just pointing out that in this city, things can get violent in a hurry.  To those that support what has happened, your in a world of SH##!  If you don't like our beloved country and our freedoms, feel FREE to leave like you CAME!!!!  You want to party, take your sorry butt back to where you came from and get bombed!  This makes me want to join up again to kick some foreign $*#!

Former Army SGT

Nick Gebhardt

Nick Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 19:25:48 (ZULU) 

Ladies and Gents,

Back after a busy time getting ready for our daughter's wedding. This is seriously depleting my 'toys' budget.

Groundhogs vs sniper rifles....In my Remmie 700 VS, 26" factory barrel, 28 oz factory trigger, I worked up a load of 22.2 grs of IMR SR4759 and Sierra 175 MK at 2.900 in Fed Match cases. Average of 10- 3 shot groups at 100 ygs .250". I don't have a chron but am guessing about 2,000 fps. Scope is a MK3 LR. Deadly on chucks. Hope this isn't a repeat but I've never seen any reduced loads for the 308 and thought you might like a low recoil, fairly quiet chuck load between matches.

This 700 VS is 1997 gun and was broken in benchrest style. Took half a day but she sure shoots. Scope bases are Baer w/20 MOA taper.

Question...Has anybody experienced long throats in their 700's? Mine goes 2.932" to the lands which is pretty long for a 308 or is it?

Brave Rifles - 3rd ACR


scubashooter <>
Richmond, VA, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 20:53:26 (ZULU) 

Like the rest of the country, I suspect, I can't come up with words to describe how I'm feeling after yesterday. Sick, stunned and pissed just to start.  One thing does come clearly though.

                       Vengeance, plain and simple.

Just another G.I. wishing I was still in, so I could get me some payback !


AB <>
Blytheville, Ar., UNITED States of America - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:01:36 (ZULU) 

Two Shoes and 'Lito,

I couldn't agree more.

The dogs of war should have been unleashed long before now.

Hope we don't pussyfoot aroung this time.

The flag flies!!


scubashooter <>
Richmond, VA, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:09:59 (ZULU) 

Scuba Dude...

For a .308 Rem 700... 2.932" is considered short.

Most run around 3.15"


CatShooter <>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:21:39 (ZULU) 

So we're agreed.  Get THE RIGHT GUYS and make examples of them that would make a Mongol calvryman dump his guts.  While were at it, it's time to settle up on The Cole, The Embassies, Pan Am 103, The Marine barracks, etc.

Key point:  RIGHT GUYS.

This "Kill 'em all," childishness makes more enemies than it kills.


CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:58:22 (ZULU) 

 I believe some of the "Right Guys" are in federal prison right now........Build a gallows in front of the site and start there....Does that suit the author of the "final post"???????????

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 22:49:06 (ZULU) 

It appears that for now, all the disaster and responder personnel are put in place with backups for the next week or so. Most of the work is going to be body recovery and heavy resque by the USAR teams. Actually there are more people than they know what to do with now in NY. The northern states have a lot more man-power to draw from than we do in other places.

The Hazmat Team (NMRT) that I am on has pretty much stood down but we are still on advisory. We are not sure if the second Team DMAT will be required.

Unless things change between now and Friday, I'm going ahead with vacation plans that I made a year ago (friends wedding) since they are already paid for. I really hate to take vacation in light of the recent happenings, but I will be carrying all the gear I would need to deploy since I won't be over 4 hours from home. For sure, I will still not be able to rest.

There may never be a 'good' time for vacation anymore. I feel that we have only seen the tip of the iceburg.

If any of you live around VA Beach and want to have a beer Saturday, send me an email.

Sad and worn out Bolt, out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 22:51:36 (ZULU) 

Kissinger should be read with care:


CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 22:53:03 (ZULU) 

 Let the Lady of New York once again declare her sympathy for those who danced in the streets yesterday so that all will remember.......and my note WAS serious......

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 23:07:39 (ZULU) 

Is a muzzle break on a .223 worthwhile

I own a Rem 700 vssf in 223. With a normal 55 grain load, I have a hard time seeing where the bullet hits when the scope is above 8 power. I would prefer to be able to use the scope around 15 power or so, but I simply cannot hold the gun still due to the small recoil.

From my understanding, a brake might work well on a 223 because the muzzle blast is fairly strong. I am an avid varmint hunter and want to be able to see what and where I am hitting all of the time.

Is it worth the expense or not?

I am not conserned about noise because I always wear hearing protection with this rifle.

I was considering the Holland quick discharge brake. Please let me know of your opinion on this brake.  Does the blast from this brake actually blow on the shooter?

Badon <>
Boise, ID, usa - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 23:37:40 (ZULU) 

It looks like this won't go to the Ivy League pencil necks at State and Justice who'll just issue strongly worded statements and subpoenas.


CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:03:46 (ZULU) 

Thank all of you for your kind expressions of sympathy regarding the murder of my friend.

Let us all take our grief and turn it into resolve that those responsible will be removed from the earth. Not revenge, just protection for those remaining.

Fox News reports that Arafat has donated his blood for US victims.

I certainly hope that this does not leave him too weak to dance in the streets.

To all who were involved in these shameful and sinful acts I say, "Dance while you can."

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:07:25 (ZULU) 


My condolences to all affected, both directly and indirectly.  This senseless situation should result in only one response.  Annihilation of all terrorists, and their harbourers.

I have heard of the "glass houses" comments, but would sure like to see a "glass country" here real quick.

CDC, welcome back.

Bruce Robinson, my condolences.

"release the hounds"

On another side note, my wife is now at 41 weeks, one day.  We are expecting her to have our child at any moment.... hopefully, she will hang on till tomorrow, which is my birthday... ;)))

'Lito, theotherChris, Gooch, etc.  i couldn't agree with you more.



Sean Thomas <>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:10:26 (ZULU) 

 Let Arafat donate the blood of those he has protected.......and those who have danced....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:13:03 (ZULU) 

Question about tumbler media and barrel wear. I know you guys were talking about possibles problems with walnut media but what about corn cob media? Any problems there? I never really noticed any media on my cases or even in them that might do any damage. Not even much dust. So what do you guys think?

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:14:27 (ZULU) 

My sinsere condolanses to the families of the victims and my sympathy

for this great nation for this tragedy.

Althougth i would like to see the murderes bombed back to stone age

i dont think we should let emotion overtake reason.If by saying -israely aproach- you mean dont give them intel and infiltrate mosad

i agree.What are the chanses they new and did not say anything?They done that before.After all who will get the most out of this tragedy?

(please dont call me antisemite.I dont like them but idont hate them either).

I hope they will found them all.


Jim <>
marathon, fl, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:18:02 (ZULU) 

Marathon Jim...

you failed this one too... the Isreali method has nothing to do with being Jewish, or giving anyone intel... it is to make the price of being a terrorist SO HIGH, that it isn't worth it... just the opposite of the clinton administration.

You kill an Isreali solder, the Isrealis will kill ten of your's.

You blow up an Isreali school bus, they will blow up 10 of yours.

You blow up an Isreali house, they shell an entire neighborhood with 155mm.  They make the price of this shit very high... not like clinton, who simply got international court orders telling the terrorists to "Stop that, and be nice!"


This is another idiot that has a scheme to send $18,000,000 to you, just give him your bank account #... he's using the roster for a mailing list... HA!

Fire dude-ski...

corn cob is OK... but make sure the polish you use with it, has no abrasives.  Dillon Blue Stuff is good... Iosso polish has abrasives in it, and the cases will have to be washed after polishing.

Mark smith...

You're right on.  Let the "Dancers of Palestine" donate blood for the cause.

CatShooter <>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:42:05 (ZULU) 

Steel Floorplates for M700?

Would anyone care to comment on the Dakota or Williams floorplates offered by Brownell's for around $240?  I don't want to have to have the new one inletted, and these seem to be the available drop-in models.  Are there any better ones out there for similar money?  The original aluminum one is starting to feel a little bit mushy when I torque it in.  Is there anything wrong with treating the steel floorplate with spray-primer and green Krylon (verses some snazzy baked-on goo)?

I think I saw a D.D. Ross (?) steel floorplate in George Gardner's shop (on a rifle), but don't know where to get one (or what it costs).  Doesn't seem to be carried by Brownell's.  I'm also not sure whether it requires re-inletting, to fit.

Thanks in advance for any advice or comments on or off-line.

- Earl <>
KC, MO, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 01:03:58 (ZULU) 

Greetings.  Many things to post so I'll keep 'em short.

First and foremost:  Heartfelt condolences and sympathies to all involved one way or another.  To our emergency service's and volunteers in the recovery, our sincerest gratitude.

For us whom are the "last resort of diplomacy", when and if we get the call, I sure hope we are allowed to do more than just give some brat a spanking.  We need to be able to strike and strike hard, but we must have clear objectives and full use of all resources to meet those goals.  While "Glass parking lots" make good slogans, we must remember that we are Americans, and we are a make-up of all the peoples of the world.  We cannot let prejudices prevail here, our response must be directed towords those responsible, not everyone of X-persuasion, as some will doubtless be our allies, too.

On to some other things:  Pat (MrBullit): For Krieger try swapping around your "I" and "E".  It's  Tried contacting you off line but have just moved and still getting used to all of the new email accounts, and my message didn't make it to you.

Pet Licoln (I think), If you were the one who posted about using short bbled rifles and pistols for chasing pigs through the bush, you'll get a kick out of this.  While I was stationed in Ge. I hunted.  One of the guys I hunted with was a little, well, "off".  He used to go after the pigs with a mini-mag flashlight in one hand and a Colt's Woodsman .22lr in the other!  Maybe he saw too many Vietnam movies about "tunnel rats".

Glad to be back,


Caison <>
De, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 01:06:02 (ZULU) 

Anybody heard from Jim  Mitchell?????????????????

 We offer our Hope and prayers for the victims, survivors and families of these horrific attacks.

  To the Scumballs who did it, we gonna micro fry yo asses, yo mammy, and yo kinfolk too. BANK ON IT!!!!!

No where to run,

No where to hide baby!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 01:56:03 (ZULU) 

I have not posted for awhile. However I have been lurking. I do have a question for you guys. I am looking into buying a 40 S/W I have looked at the Smith Tactical pieces and the SW99 which is the one that was jointly made with Walther. I was wondering if any of you have any trigger time in with either gun. And what you think of them. Any info would be appritiated.


Its been a long time scince we have chatted. I have been lurking in the shadows. I dont know if you remember but we got into a long debate on the mouse guns accuricy compared to the bolt guns. Anyway I hope you have been well. And I wonder if you still get into trouble with the sheepies!

Eric W.

Eric W. <>
Mich, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:31:07 (ZULU) 


Thank God i dont have dark skin and a big mustashe.

I knew that israelis never care about colateral damage and now you want to folow their footsteps.Do you realy think you will still have the moral high ground?If the price is so high how come there still suisade bombers?Terorism has many does propaganda.

I understand your outrage but what you proposing is no diferent what wermaht did in my country during ocupacion!And dont forget NATO bombed the Serbs for something like that!

I hope our disagreament dont create any bad blood


Jim <>
marathon, fl, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:39:27 (ZULU) 

Cat Assasin,

I use the Midway polish and I don't believe it has any abbrasives but I'll check. Does anyone know off the top of their head if it does or not?

I also wanted to say also that I tried my 300WM today for the first time since using the David Tubb Final Finish and it does work. My velocities went up 60FPS with the same loads from before the treatment! It was also starting to flatten primers but today not even a hint so pressures must be down too. Also it is a joy to clean and didn't even foul up much. It used to be like I copper plated it after 20 rounds. Check it out at It was definately worth the $35 delivered.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:51:43 (ZULU) 

 Concerning "colateral damage".....Responsibility for loss of innocent sheep, among whom dwell wolves, lies with the wolves, not with the shepherds of neighboring flocks who avenge the murder of their own flock.....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:54:13 (ZULU) 

To All:

   My condolences and prayers to those who must bear the agony and despair of loss.

     I received a message from a prophetic ministry, noting that the attack occurred on 9/11.  Looking in Revelations, the Biblical book of disclosure, Chapter 9, verse 11.

     "And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon (destruction), but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (destroyer)

     Verse 12:  "One woe is past.  Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things."

     The guy had the strong impression that more attacks are forthcoming....who knows when.  I do know God desires His people to pray, and I am thankful many posting on this site do so.

Jerry <>
Halstad, MN, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:15:14 (ZULU) 


Check out the Badger steel floorplate.I think it is the best out there. It might be overkill, but it is very well made and I feel it is worth it. The Badger folks are nice people as well!! Give George a call, he can set you up.

Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:18:56 (ZULU) 

Well Gents,

Its T minus 7 hours before myself and a dozen other officers drive from Philly to New York or "ground zero" to help all the thousands of others in the horror that has been unfolded.  I requested to my superiors today at the Philadelphia Police Depo that we would like to be sent up to do anything possible since things in Philly have been quiet.  We'll be leaving tomorrow at 6:00 am and we will remain there for 24 to 72 hrs depending upon what happens.  Earlier on I recieved mail from a man named Dan who bashed me for my post I left yesterday after the events of TWC bombings calling me an "idiot" and a "donut eater".  I hope he reads this message to know that it is the "donut eaters" who are risking their lives to save others along with the brave firemen.  We are a strong backbone in this country and if your a real man I ask you to bring those comments to New York tomorrow and shout them loud!  This may not be right to post a message bringing personal concerns here but I'm not picking a fight nor do I want a fight, but DO NOT insult those and make a fool of yourself by doing so.  If you do not agree withomor opinion fine, I'm open for arguement but do not curse and insult me, this is America a land where free speech is allowed and it will remain this way no thanks to cowards like you.

Keep the Faith, and God bless the victims and their loved ones


Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:23:23 (ZULU) 

It looks like Sadaam provided much necessary support.  We'll know soon.

Collateral damage is a given.  It's sad.

Lt Chris:  Good luck and God bless.


CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:27:54 (ZULU) 

I need some advice on the Tasco's SS10x42M Super Sniper Scope. ..does anyone have any credible info on this scope. Likes ..dislikes ..??.i have read the in review section and it seems like a good scope?? am saving money for the USO ST-10 + a few options..just need something that will do for now.

andrei <>
DFW, Texas, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:35:58 (ZULU) 

My condolences to all who have lost loved ones.


I've been thinking hard about this, as have we all.

These guys are willing to die, so killing the culprits won't help, another will step forward and take their place. And, there's really not any way to prevent a terrorist attack once they've decided to attack... yeah, we can try, and do okay at it, but you're still open to a hard left.

So, the only way to stop it is to make it so that they don't want to do it. How? I can think of only one way....

Obliterate their cities.

They don't care to die, but if they know that if they pull some shenanigan, then their wifes, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, neighbors, buddies, friends, churches (or mosques), neighborhoods - EVERYTHING that is part of their life - will no longer exist. Then, and ONLY then, will they consider that they shouldn't do it.

Retalitory, yes. Extreme, yes. Politically correct, hell no.

But it would work.

As soon as we have a clue what town bin Laden and his cell's chiefs are at, we ought to hit that town with a small tactical nuclear warhead. If we find evidence that Iraq's Hussein really did support this event, then Baghdad gets one too. And the camels they rode in on!

Collateral damage, yes, almost monumental. Is it a form of terrorism? Yes, it is... it IS fighting fire with fire. Reactively terrorize them such that they won't try it. Note, it IS different from their proactively terrorizing other societies just because they don't like our way of life.

Do I blame Arabs, no. Do I blame followers of Islam, no. I don't even blame most of the citizens of the countries that are known to support such activities. I blame the terrorists, and think that we shouldust cifically hit them hard. Surgically. But on a community scale.

Only then, will they hesitate.

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

Semper Fi, God Bless.


Leslie <>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:38:11 (ZULU) 

Marathon Jim...

>"Thank God i dont have dark skin and a big mustashe."<

This is NOT about race or religion... many Isrealis have dark skin, and big mustashs... this is about fighting terrorists. In the world of terrorists, there are no uniforms, and no ID's.

>"I knew that israelis never care about colateral damage and now you want to follow their footsteps."<

When children carry satchel bombs into your markets, then children are not "colateral" they are solders in "spy" uniforms.  If you play "fair" in a war of terrorism, you will loose!  If the Isrealis had waited to shoot only at uniformed Palistinians, there would not be an Isreal... If we wait to shoot uniformed terrorists in this country, the Trade Center will just be the begining... we will be bombed and burned to the ground.

>"If the price is so high how come there still suicide bombers?"<

Because they are religious fanitics, and in their mind, dying for Alla, gets them a front seat with God.  If Isreal hadn't had the policy they have, they would have been pushed into the sea 45 years ago.

Please don't continue this thread here... you don't understand the issues involved, and the needs of a country to defend itself against an invisible enemy.  If you play fair, you will die.

CatShooter <>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:50:31 (ZULU) 

Im sorry.  But I think its time for Berlin or Japan all over again. I mean I think its time to take it right to the inside of their house. I mean completely conquered and Old Glory flying over their capital building. Then find politically favorable peopley.&ntheir own countries to prop up. And then, we can build economical and politically favorable relations again. Look at what we have/have not done with iraq. How long do we think we can just keep bombing them & not expect these kinds of things to eventually happen. Now are freedom is going to suffer. Sound off if you disagree/or agree.

Also, Kmart and oshmans reporting to pull guns off their shelves...

I felt this post would be germane in light of the circumstances.

Texas National Guard F-16's Flying over my house all Night!!!

Hearty Thanks.. :)


JerryC <>
houston, Texas, God Bless America - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:57:13 (ZULU) 

Lito'......... are right on.

If your arse is against the damn wall 24/7/365 1/2 days a do what you gotta'......... want a definition of Collateral?????

NYTC.............there's your REAL damn Collateral!!!!.

You got appprox 20/30K, TOTALLY innocent dead Americans........all they did was go to work.......

Don't even breathe the damn word...........

Leslie, as much as I hate to.........I agree...........time to make glass.

The 800# Gorilla, has got to get ON with the show, or we are DEAD meat.........

Two Fumin' Shoes

Terry <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 04:07:51 (ZULU) 

From another board.... very well said....


What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.

Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.

Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.


Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and,

probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.

I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.

In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.


You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold.

As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.


Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war....


Leslie <>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 04:09:14 (ZULU) 

Hi ya'll

Back to work after a couple of days off. Computer at home on the fritz so I can't check email or roster from home. Spent the past couple days staring at the TV in shock.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all who lost friends and loved ones at the WTC and the Pentagon.

A special thank you to the members of the NYPD and FDNY as well as all other volunteers who are working feverishly and against all hope to try and find survivors. And a special prayer for the officers and firemen who lost their lives trying to save the lives of others.

To those of you in the armed services, THANK YOU for being there, it is you who will be carrying the fight to these heartless bastards, may God be with you all.  Watch your six!

lito' You are absolutely right! This country has been too liberal and too lax for too long. The signs have been there but ignored for whatever reason. These guys do not fight fair and we cannot prevail against this threat if we fight fair. I hope that our leaders recognize this, find the perpetrators quickly and then make their world a living hell.

Tony: very sorry to hear of your loss, my prayers are with you as well.

Lt. Rob Opp

Police Dept.

Jamestown ND USA

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 05:26:33 (ZULU) 

Lt Chris:  You put it online so I will too.

Lt C:  "before is sleep tonight, and head out tomorrow to see sights that are unimaginable, I call a truce to the verbal bashing.  You are not the enemy and sometimes my emotions get the best of me, especially when your watching TV and fighting back the tears after seeing people plummet 90+ stories to their death and knowing now that I'm going in there to find them."

CDC':  7,000 dead at 150 lbs per equals about 100,000 lbs of horror.  Maybe it's 15,000 dead and 200,000 pounds.

Be strong.

"For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an'

  'Tommy, wait outside';

But it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the

  trooper's on the tide,

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the

  troopship's on the tide,

O it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the

  trooper's on the tide."


They wanted us to feel fear, but we don't feel fear.  Americans don't see themselves as victims.  Americans are children who choose what we want and then we get it.  Now we want the people who did this burned alive and buried in pig shit, and so it will be.

Sadaam angle:

If this is right, big time state sponsorship and bin Ladin is small potatos:

More on that.  bin Ladin looks like a stooge and a cut out.  It's Sadaam:

For the country that thinks it has no heroes, consider Thomas, Jeremy and thier cohort.  May God love them and keep them 'till they are rejoined with thier loved ones.  These were Men:

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 05:41:07 (ZULU) 

I have lurked here for a long time, but have never posted anything here before. I can't watch the news any more. I lost it today - so I thought writing a post here among like-minded brothers might help me vent a little bit.

A friend of mine who works at the Pentagon is still unaccounted for. I keep asking myself and my God - what makes madmen do the unthinkable to innocent people?

A few thoughts: To truly conquer an enemy, we must study them closely first.

There are some things people fear worse than death - just ask a Holocaust Survivor. I have older relatives still living who bear tattoos they received in 1943 while in Nazi concentration camps. They live in Israel now. They have spoken to me privately of unspeakable horrors they witnessed personally.

Sun Tzu says:  "Know your enemy."

Here are a few URLS (with links) for studying:

I believe it is time for us to apply some very serious Psy Ops.

If there are Arabic speaking Americans who wish to do something good for our country - now would be a good time to offer ymas/elves into service to redeem the diginity others have stolen from you.

God's blessings to all those who are selflessly helping our country during this terrible time. Please know that you are on many people's prayer lists.

Lastly, the Wrath is coming - like a thief in the night...

"The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle, swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity the young.  They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. They will lay seige to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

 - Deuteronomy 28:49-52

Fred <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 06:43:23 (ZULU) 


Its now about 4:00 in the morning in philadelphia, I just got the call from my captain and we are leaving a couple of hours before schedule.  I am on my way to hell to help the countless many brave souls who have been digging like dogs on 14th street.  I may be jumping the gun here but I'm going into what feels and looks like another world and I hope and pray that me, my fellow 13 officers and all the others digging for our fellow Americans come out I one piece.  I don't know what to expect in th e80 miles north of me except the worse and hope we can pull out some more survivors.  I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little scared, but I am in all seriousness when I say that I have NEVER, EVER have been so proud to be an American.  I sometimes takes to worst to bring out the best and

consider myself lucky to be soon working with the bravest and finest men God has ever created.


God Bless us all and those who have departed for their deaths will soon be avenged.


Lt. Chris

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 07:51:59 (ZULU) 

Lt. Chris,

Our prayers are with you and all the others.  Good luck.

Semper Fi.


Alan Wong <>
S.F., CA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 09:34:42 (ZULU) 

Sorry boys and girls but I can’t sit back and read some of this without comment.

Firstly, my deepest condolences to all who have lost friends and family in these attacks.

I can understand your anger but your nation’s response must be a measured one. Some of you need to step back, take a few deep breaths and sit on your hands until the red mist lifts. By all means take out those responsible BUT ONLY THOSE RESPONSIBLE ( and I include any government who funded or supported these people). There must be every effort made to have ZERO collateral damage The vast majority of people in the countries these terrorists are from or are sheltering in will be completely innocent and just as shocked as the rest of us at what has happened. If you start killing them through sloppy or indiscriminate bombing then you will just recruit thousands of willing soldiers for the opposition, not beat them into submission. The Israeli approach doesn’t work it just makes people more determined to fight.  (take your slogan ‘Live free or die’ as an example!) These terrorists have murdered thousands of innocent people. Doing the same thing to their countries will be just as much a crime.  You can only do what you need to do by putting people on the ground. Select your targets go in hard, get the job done and get the hell out. Then offer as much aid to those countries as you can afford. Hearts and minds. (And yes, you need to review your foreign policy! - Remember you import 70% of your oil.) That’s my 2 cents I grew up in N. Ireland. I know how it works and I know there is no easy solution. There may never be a solution but I know you need a carrot as well as a stick to make any progress.

Talk of tactical nukes will make a lot, if not all, of your allies walk away.

To those going into harms way, good luck and may your God go with you.

Flame away.

Mark D <>
London, UK - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:01:32 (ZULU) 

I posted this over at The Firing Line and Tshoes thought I should post it here so everyone here can see. If you have a factory barrel and reload I highly recommend it. I know some don't like fire lapping and I'm not sure if this would even be considered fire lapping in the old sense. Here's the post:

Well I tried the product made by shooting champion David Tubb called Final Finish. It is made for people that reload and want to smooth out their bores for better velocities, less fouling easier cleaning and better accuracy. It's something like a fire lapping but a little different. You get 75 bullets, 50 for .338 and larger, of 5 different levels of courseness which are coated almost like a moly coat. You will only shoot 50 the first time you do this treatment on a factory bore, less on a custom barrel(there are special instructions for these). The others you save for the future when your barrel needs a little touch up like when your throat is getting a little long. You load the rounds and shoot from the coursest to the finest coated rounds cleaning between each of the 10 round strings. Some might say this sounds like a barrel break in thing and to a point it is but you can do this on any rifle and believe me the benefits are much greater than just a break in. I used it on my factory Remington 700P 300WM that fouled like no other rifle I've owned. It was also a bear to clean. I had already done some load testing so I had some velocities from the chrono to check the new velocities against.

They say that it will give you greater velocities, less fouling, easier cleaning and better accuracy. It does! My velocities with the same loads went up 60FPS! My primers were just starting to flatten with this load before the treatment but after there wasn't a hint of pressure signs so the pressure must have dropped also from the bore being smoother. Also noted was that there was barely any fouling to be had and the cleaning took no time at all. Accuracy on the other hand was just a hair better but with the other benefits that's fine with me. If you are interested and want to read some more go to          This is where I bought mine from but there are other places that sell it. For about $35 delivered it was well worth it especially on a factory barrel. If you load your own give it a try. You won't be sorry.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:27:19 (ZULU) 


Welcome back!  The hiatus was much too long.

Semper Fi all!!!!!

Paul <>
Reston, VA, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:35:13 (ZULU) 


Thanks for your .02's.............several years ago, I would have agreed.

Unfortunately, measured responses, only have gotten us into this mess.

It, in my humble opinion is time to show these folks some glow in the dark scenes.

Even if it is just ONE major explosion 50 miles away from a major city..........the Fear of Allah, must be brought to bear......

We will never stop the splinter groups, and small cells.

Before this is said and done, I feel we will find Saddam Insane responsible.....

Baghdad, or wherever HE may be, needs to be Sodom & Gomorrahized........

Only when the price becomes totally untenable will the supporters of these attrocities take stock........

The gloves have got to come off.......

Let's not forget, we are talking MULTIPLE thousands of INNOCENT civilians...........Americans, American soil, worst disaster in our 200 year plus history...........and like I stated earlier........"All they were doing, was going to work".

I live by, or try to.......Biblical principles.

BUT, that said, there is a time for JUST WAR...........we are THERE NOW.

The retribution must be SO painful, that the deterent will be first and foremost on their minds.......indelibly & forever etched....

We cannot allow ONE more incedent of this nature..........not ONE.

To do so, is INVITING more of the same...............


Terry <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:55:55 (ZULU) 

HOGs, very few have said I was slow to react to a threat but from my point of view is, now is not the time to act swiftly and in just a general direction.  We need to be certain who participated in these acts of war.  Dont take this as a dont do anything. It is a do it right approach.

My deep down belief is that we do this the way the Israels did after the Olympic Games Terrorist attack.  Hunt down and kill everyone that had anything to do with the acts, before, during or after. I mean everyone.  If a government was involved we take out all members that were part of it. I do not think we should carpetbomb/nuke or anything else a whole people because they do not think the way we do.  If we did that we would be at the same moral level as the ones that did this against us.

If you look to the worlds past you will see where some wars ended with former enemies as friends and some as mortal enemies.  We have a chance to do this right and still hold our heads up high.  I dont think I want to talk about how we bombed young kids and non combatants.

Just my feelings


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:17:26 (ZULU) 

To the SC council:

Please find and contact the author of the text posted by Leslie that was taken from another board.  Please get permission to post this piece on this site.  This is a very inspirational, well thought out and well written piece that should be posted for all to read.

Condolences again to all affected, both directly and indirectly, by this tragedy.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
VA, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:32:08 (ZULU) 

Several of the original World Trade bombers are incarcerated at the Federal Facility here.  Quiet so far.  On standby.

Still no word from NYC on my friends with NYPD/ATF.  Their office was in the World Trade.

A friend with Pittsburgh SWAT told me there was a large prison riot in Penn. of Muslims when they heard of the bombing (that one's easy to fix).

K-Mart took all their guns off the shelves here.  Can't even buy dove loads for your shotgun.

They say Wal-Mart sold 115,000 US flags yesterday.  Glad to see it.

One of our officer's brother is FDNY.  He was said to be missing at first but is okay and working at the site.  My Major's godmother worked for Morgan Stanley is it ?  She died at the scene.  His wife's uncle was killed at the Pentagon.

I hope all of YOU, MY BROTHERS, are well.

Remember the Alamo, Brian

PS: Saw a convenience store owner walking down the street yesterday.  Muslim looking fellow. Had on a shirt with BIG red, white and blue letters "I LOVE THE USA".  Smart move, dude.

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:51:53 (ZULU) 


I'm with "Shoes".

If the enemy wears the same uniform as the colaterals... and lives inside the comunities, and intermixed with the colaterals... there is NO difference.  Tell me just who was dancing in the streets in Palistine yesterday... terrorists, or colaterals??

When an entire nation wants your distruction, how do you sort them out.

We had this problem in Viet Nam, and got our collective tails kicked... we couldn't tell the good guys from the bad guys. This is NOT like the Second World war, where the opponents wore uniforms, and shot at each other.

I seriously doubt if the general public of Afganistan, Liberia, Saudi, Palistine, Iraq, Iran, and a few others were "shocked" at the attack... au contrair mes'ami, they rejoiced in the streets at our loses.

For the first time in our history, we are involved in a religious war, and we know from history, that they can go of forever... hundreds or thousands of years.  If this is not brought to a conclusion soon, and new directions taken about our immigration policies and foreign policies, we will be living like the Irish in a few years, and freedom as we know it, will be history.

If we had finished it in Iraq, I don't think we wouldn't be in this position... we need to finish it now.

I'm not saying that everything our foreign policy has gotten us into was right... when clinton bombed Afganistan to cover his media problems, the world community should have jumped on him, and protested it, and we should have impeached him for attacking a sovereign nation without cause... but he was the darling of Europe, and got a free pass by the media in this country.

That not withstanding, we still have to deal with Tuesday, and the source of the problem is a large group of people that are religiously driven to our distruction.

When that problem is solved, then we can re-evaluate out foreign policy, and weither we want to be involved in Europe's and the mideast's problems...

I personally think we should be out of the whole friggin mess... let The Irish, the Bosnians, and the rest go to hell... shore up and defend our true allies, and dump the UN (which hasen't prevented a single war, national genocide, or act of terrorism, since it was formed, but wants control over our national parks and our resources)...

Paul... you do not need permission to post Leslie's stuff, if it is not copyrighted.

This is my last on this... I need a break for a few days. (I think!)

CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:54:25 (ZULU) 

After watching this tragedy unfold the past couple of days and reading the comments here I wanted to vent and get my two cents worth in. Don't take it personal if I disagree with you.

I agree with many of you the at we need to find out exactly who did this, not for justification, but to establish the facts for history.  I also don't think we should start carpet bombing parts of the world and killing children. Quite frankly that is a bit simple minded. Just like in Vietnam the enemy has so little regard for their own children that they use them as shields and suicide bombers, to take advantage of the natural love Americans have for kids.  Now I ask, who is the true evil that is responsible for kids being killed?

What we should do is to attack those terroist who we already know about and are the easiest to get to.  This is a war, and in war you attack all your enemy and kill them all.  Killing them all is the only way to stop them.   If terrorism is the enemy, then anyone who is a terrorist against the USA is the enemy, and whether they were directly involved in the attacks or not is unimportant.  They are a target and the enemy and it is time to take the war to them!!!!

We hit them hard and soon and often, until they are destroyed. We make it so difficult for their support structure to tolerate them that either attitudes change or they are no more.  We don't stop when they start whining.  We prosecute the war against all terrorist until they are all gone!! If they are captured or surrender, then you try them before they are hung.   If they choose to hide behind  women and children then they are responsible for their deaths, not us.  America has never sought to kill non-combatants, but when the Gertmans were hold up in a building, the fact that French or German civilians were in it was not a factor.  Our GI's did the job and killed the Enemy.  I really don't care if the terrorist are Palestinians, Afgans, Iranian, Iraqis, Croates, Serbs, or whomever.  If we know they are terrorist then lets get to it, and after laying it to waste leave it, don't rebuild it.  And don't let anyone else rebuild it either.

Then there are these Palestinians in Israel.  Dancing in the streets and celebrating the attack.   When was the last time Americans danced in the streets when the Israeli's fought back?  You would think that Americans do nothing but want to kill Islamic Arabs.  Someone posted that a neighbor flew the Palestinian Flag and set out a bowl of candy.  Talk about the nerve of these people.  Here we tolerate it, if the situation was reversed, the house would be firebombed and the people killed.  Now tell me who is the civilized society?  These same people even kill their own childeren if it furthers their cause.  I am thinking of the boy in Gaza hiding with his father that  was shot by an AK 47 in the back a few months ago and the PLO blames Israeli soldiers for killing kids.

We have sat by too long being too fat and sassy thinking everyone is as cheritible as we are and differences can be worked out, and 10,000 people and maybe more are dead because of it.  There are children without parents, and husbands and wives and sons and daughters gone forever.  You cannot make peace and live with people who don't want peace.  This is a defining moment for the US and the civilized world, and how we deal with it will be the world our children and grandchildren inherit.

May God Bless Us All


Titan <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:27:36 (ZULU) 

Morning Hawgs..

   Been home sick with the flu and watched most of the horror on tv. Its just unbelievable!!


   So sorry to hear about your friend, my thoughts and prayers are with you.

  As far as what we need to do about this thing, I don't think there is and easy answer. I know our world has changed as we know it and it will never be the same.

  We need to understand that when we get into fighting terrorist we need to take the gloves off and forget about the rules of war. When dealing with these people there is only one rule: There aren't any!!

  We also need to understand that were dealing with a culture that has been bread to hate us from the day they were born and yes if we kill some of them we will make more hatred and more recruits for their cause.

  The only way to stop a war is to make it to costly to continue. In this type of a war there "Will" be collateral damage. I don't  remember who said it, but in world war two, someone was asked about bombing cities and killing thousands of civilians and what good could this possibly do in helping to stop the war. His reply was "If your a soldier, up on the front line, you will fight and die for your country and your beliefs because your protecting your family and all that you love and hold true. But if thats taken away or you risk loosing all that is dear to you and there is nothing left you will soon loose the will to fight or see that the cost is to high. That is what stops wars"!!!

   I always thought about that statement and what it really ment and maybe he is right. Like 'lito says, you have to make it to costly to continue a war with us. Maybe he's willing to die for the cause but by doing so is he ready to codem all else that he holds dear???

Pat <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:30:10 (ZULU) 


I was just trying to show some manners and consideration.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
VA, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:35:39 (ZULU) 

We will inflict collateral damage.  We will take significant casualties.  Both should be minimized but fretting about brute facts is pointless.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:41:58 (ZULU) 

There is nothing like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, I agree with Mike about taking out all involved as the Israeli's did, but I have seen this time and time again in Northern Ireland, you know damn well who the terrorist's are , but you aren't doing anything to them unless you catch them red handed, by then its to late,they laugh in your face and you can do nothing about it. They need taking out before hand, prevention is always better than cure, so lets get on with it and take out all known terrorist organisations, all their leaders, members and supporters, lets take out all the governments who provide sanctuaries for these rats, those who provide funding, training and a base for operations. I don't care who they are or where they come from be it ETA in Spain,  IRA INLA or UVF in Northern Ireland, RAF in Germany,Gadaffi's mad men, Saddams hench men or any of these Mad Mulla's form Goatfuckistan, or a whole host of other terror organisations, Kill them, stamp them out, because one day now , sooner or later they will all kill innocent civilians again. Now is the time to act, its late, but better than never.

And let us start with the pigs who did NY and DC.

I would imagine that in my country, England, that there are many Liberals and Socialists, tree hugging hippies who would rather look the other way and not have our Country involved,Tony Blair is one, you can see it on his face,  But this involves us all and I for one, will not look the other way,I have seen terrorism first-hand, and it stinks in all shapes and forms, I stand by my American Brothers and Sisters, God Bless... PeteL..

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:48:15 (ZULU) 

Guys.  I have been in NYC since 3:00 on Tuesday.  The sitution is more grave and overwhelming than the news is capable of describing.

Hundreds of brave rescue workers are dead, as are thousands of innocent civilians. Many will not be uncovered for weeks, and the horrid task of digging through the rubble, finding few and fewer survivors each day has only just begun. Some, many of the rescue workers that survive, will never be 100% again.

My opinion.

The standard has been set.  By the NYC firefighters and police, that at this moment are still there, working for 48 hours now, in terrible danger, with falling debris, fire and asbestos everywhere... they have not waivered for one second...they are working smart, trying to save thier brothers and the innocent...

We must follow in thier lead... I suggest the following:

Law Enforcement and the Military.- Devise a comprehensive plan to fix this.  It MUST NOT HAPPEN AGAIN and everyone involved in this act must die.

Everyone else - Take a real good look at how different parts of your federal governent operate in this time of stress...the parts that fail must be repaired... My personal experience in NYC suggests that the feds slowed the rescue in some cases... I'll hold back final judgement as all the facts are not clear.

The victims.

I am biased.  I am a firefighter.  There are thousands of families that lost a parent... most will need help.  Focus some of your immediate attention there... $5 toward some dead firefighter/cop's child education might do more than a pint of blood right now...

Fixing the problem and preventing any more needless deaths with do the most.


Jim Mitchell

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 15:20:58 (ZULU) 

I have lived with blood on my hands but it was not the blood of the not gulty.  This can be done without hurting many uninvolved and thats the way America has and should continue to do things. We have the means of doing this and keeping our way of life, liberty and justice intact. Never give up your principals.

We all have to fight back the anger. First rule in a fight is to control your anger so you act with thought and planning. He who spins out of control just gets dizzy, makes bad choices and later wishes he had thought things out more before he acted.

When this is all done remember:

1. Dope it

2. Dial it

3. Dump them.


MikeMIller <>
Calif, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 15:21:20 (ZULU) 

Finally we Canadians have gotten a spine - looks like we are going to be digging rats out in Afg with you.

Kevin - of the GWN <>
Canada - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:06:16 (ZULU) 

Morning all had a lot of catching up with e-mails and such for the last 4 or 5 days:

Tony White and Bruce my prayers to you and your close ones.

Ken:  Speedy recovery to the Major hope all is going well.

I had to depart the Sniper class at Storm early this week when I couldn't establish any como with the wife at the WTC.   She works for US Customs in 6 WTC, that's the building directly below the first tower that was hit.  All's well and I give her a lot of credit for using her instincts to vacate the AO with authority.   Apparently even though they have a lot of warning and evacuation plans in place they aren't worth a shit because half of the people that got out just stood around looking up waiting for a burning building to hit them in the head and most of the ones in the towers didn't have a clue as to how serious things were getting so a lot just rode the building to the ground.  I blame that on the idiots that broadcast over the loud speakers for people to go back to there offices.  She remembered what occurred back in 93 when the WTC was first hit, how they locked down the city and stranded tens of thousands of people without having a clue as to how to provide for them.   She grabbed a lot of her co- workers and had them run for the ferry's just as the second plane hit the other tower.   All of them made it out ok.

I talked with Rod that evening and he said the class was scrubbed because there was a couple of 20th SF doctors in the class and they had to report to their unit.   So now I get to do this again next year.    Ken keep working on the PT looks like we might be teaming up for the next one.

Brian I too have friends that are NYC PD and Port Authority PD that are unaccounted for.   My heart is out to all their families and friends.   Also to all the vendors that sell coffee and newspapers in the lobbies, I'm sure a lot of them would be reluctant to leave there business and vacate leaving everything behind.

Pat I finally got to shoot the 6.5-06 past 300 yds and I'm very impressed.   It behaves a little better than a 308 out to 500 than after that it acts like the 300 WM when it gets out there.    It needed around 26 MOA at 1000, my partners 308 was needing 33 - 34  MOA.   I was using 7 MOA of left wind for center mass hits he needed 13.  Those 142 MKs worked great in that short Hart barrel.  Me thinks we got a good one.

Any of you guys work with the Airlines or the FAA and could shed some light on how it's going to be to travel with weapons and ammo in the near future?  The Texas match is just around the corner.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:06:37 (ZULU) 

Ok guys, let's change the subject.

Waddaya say??


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:18:06 (ZULU) 

Well, I haven't posted in a long time. But even then I have made few posts; due to recent events I feel the need to post. So, here we go.

  First, I do not think we should bomb anyone for this terrible act. What I feel we should do is invade, over throw and plunder thier country. We should hunt down all those involved in the plot and execute them on the spot. Then we should go after any other terrorist leaders covertly and assinate them with out a word, or hint of our involvement. Good old 1960's and 70's CIA covert ops stuff. If we choose to invade I would be willing to re-enlist if they would take my 39 yr old butt. I Served ten yrs Army,andI regret not choosing the Leather Neck way of life.

To Quote John Wanye from the movie the shootist.

"I wont be Wronged,

I wont be Insulted,

And I wont be laid a

hand on.  I don't do

these things to others,

And I require the same

from them."

Words to live by.

Lt. Chris, As a fellow donut eater. I just have this to say. You ever notice the guys who aren't brave are the first to critize other that face danger every day. By the way everyone I run into who makes donut jokes here. I advise them this is Texas, we don't eat donuts. We eat tacos. (No flame ment to the person who may have bashed him, just a personal observation. I have been told many times, that I'm just acting tough because I'm wearing a badge. I've been tough since I was a kid and will act that way till I die. I tolerate less off duty than on duty. If your screwing up I'll let you know. And I'm not an impossing figure. Just have a take charge attitude.) Dang I rambled...

As far as shooting related stuff goes, anyone have any knowledge of Voere Titan rifles? I believe they are now defunct, but sold thier patent to Mauser. Mauser calls it a Model 99. Went and shot mine the other day. Shot three, three shot groups at 300yds. Biggest group was 1.75" It's a 270 win. topped with a Loopey Vari-X 2, 3x9.  Not bad for a deer rifle huh?

That Is All.

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:20:29 (ZULU) 


If you hunt down the guys that did it, kill them, and their money-men.

The next day their brothers, sons, fathers, uncles, etc. will pick up the sword and continue the fight.

If you turn the whole country to "glass", the islamic country next door will take that as proof that you are the "evil realm" and take up the fight. Only quieter, stealthier, and harder to defend.

Either way you are in a Holy War that will not end until a whole culture is destroyed. Do we and our allies have the "sand" for that?

The US might. It did a couple of hundred years ago. But the make-up of the country has changed since then. The euro's no.

The only "easy" way out is if each and every country does "the hard thing" inside its borders, and cooperates with each and every country.

Each country has to find each and every perpetrator, arrest him, find out the identity, of all his cronies, using whatever means necessary! and kill him. No repeat offenders.

Every prick that lives outside of productive society is a contributor.

Terrorist organisations, drug smugglers, false ID producers, bankers who hide the money, corrupt government officials (worldwide) and religous leaders who expouse violence, and violent criminals of all kinds.

But that won't ever happen either.

So... protect whats your's, hope that your neighbor is as watchful as you are, and hope that our intelligence and military community is more watchful and resolute than you both.

And God help us all.

4i's <>
most churches per capita, check Guiness, USofA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:05:58 (ZULU) 

I heard just a few minutes ago that last night in Patterson, NJ there was street partying by an arab/muslim contingent.  Can anyone shed light on this?

Paul <>
USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:10:49 (ZULU) 

Just heard they found 5 firemen in a buried SUV, ALIVE, any one confirm this?

Any Arab or any one found partying and celebrating this awfull attack, should have their toenails pulled,be tared and feathered and have their whole family deported back to Goatf_ckistan, in a pig crate, which should be thrown out of a Hercy Bird at 300 feet,

what did I say about them laughing in your face, they had street parties in NI, when some Squaddie or RUC bought the farm.

Animals, all of em!! Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:26:21 (ZULU) 

That's a firm Pete, 5 found, 3 got out on their own power 2 are in good shape but hurt. I hope we see many more miracles before this is done.


drmarc <>
Hilbilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:50:53 (ZULU) 

Report that Iraq is not involved:

I'll stop posting premature speculation.  We'll know what we need to know soon enough.

The next link is from the flagship publication of American liberalism.

Thier opinion includes the advocation of inflicting an intolerable amount of death and pain and horror and leaving the lawyers home. This is significant.  Welcome aboard, guys.  We'll resume our internecine fire-fight when time permits.

I talk to highly intelligent Russians five days a week.  They long realized the nature of our common enemy.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend....for now.  This is also significant.

Psychologists have a term for calling everyone you don't like names like "coward."  It's called "projection."

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:08:43 (ZULU) 

Last entry..............

It seems, that we as usual are in the process of PC, political posturing.........

We, are discussing WHAT we should do, and probably when, and how with every body and their dogs........(other countries).

We, are even at odds HERE, as true patriots, and brothers.....on What & How we should go about this.

Good or Bad, I come from the old school.........

I was born, and raised when this country didn't answer to ANYONE except it's OWN citizens......

You crapped in our nest, you were stomped IMMEDIATELY........

This, in my opinion has changed dramatically.........we care more about the court of World opinion than we do about our OWN citizens.

This is EXACTLY the reason we WERE targeted..........we have allowed ourselves to become a paper Tiger, and ruled like, and by a bunch of women.

This task, should be left to the LEADERS of our Armed forces............

With input from the Pres.

As far as having to fight cousins, brothers, etc, etc, etc, go..........SO what........

When Politicos RUN the military, and care more about what some other country thinks.....we are in deep Voodoo.........

I am not writing this in Anger, only as an older member of this site, I KNOW what works, and what doesn't when dealing with terrorists, and tyrants..........

Pure, unadulterated BRUTE force, in amounts NO ONE can cannot kill a snake, by severing the tail...........and, we have a den FULL.

Medic Jim, God Bless you take care your arse.


Terry <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:26:25 (ZULU) 

Thank God for small miracles, lets hope for many, many, many more,

Caison, no-way jo-se would you catch me chasing wild boar with a 22lr, I feel a little under gunned with a 9mm Para, (no one offered comment on the Browning BDA by the way) and I was thinking of going bigger, I just haven't the heart to sell the pistol. Hey I did some tunnel ratting in California, crawling through Bear tunnels in ? manzanita? bushes, 300wm in hand(Howa/RWS 89), ruined the stock, I'd like to try it again with a 44mag pistol.

Ref the Voere rifles, I think they are still carried in catalogues here, these and Antonio Zoli and a few others are all mauser types any way, Voere are well made, solid rifles, not overly popular, not overly expensive, Voere make combination shotgun/rifles also, but maybe they have shut down, many many arms and shooting related businesses have ceased trading lately, the bottom has dropped out of the market here, Winchester/FN had a big close down sale in Belgium a couple of months ago, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:32:19 (ZULU) 

To All,

Buddy of mine sent me this.  Thought it summed up a few things pretty well.  Everybody stay safe.


This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a

remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair,

a Canadian television commentator.

What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as

printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as

the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people

on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were

lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in

billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.

None of these countries is today paying even the interest

on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the

Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted

and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States

that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities

were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars

into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are

writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over

the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.

Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal

the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them?

Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.

You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the

moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right

in the store window for everybody to look at.

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are

here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking

Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home

to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down

through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them.

When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke,

nobody loaned them an old caboose.

Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of

other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when

someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?

I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco


Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is

damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

They will come out of this thing with their flag high.

And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at

the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope

Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

Fitz. <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:36:06 (ZULU) 


Glad you and your wife are safe.  Saw your post on the 6.5-06 and am intrigued.  I think I remember from previous posts that it has a 21" barrel but that is all I can remember.  What are the specs of the rifle (action type, bbl mfr, etc.)  Also, what is the load you are having success with?

Jim Mitchell and all others working through the carnage; Thanks.  Your efforts are appreciated.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:05:22 (ZULU) 

Fitz, Hear, Hear to that,

but don't judge the general citizens of all these countries who where once helped and don't help back, the politicians are the ones with no back bone, ok, maybe some of these politicaly correct liberals have no backbone either, but if you guys blow the bugle, there are many Europeans who would ride to the sound of guns, I have no friends who wouldn't, be they German, British, Dutch whatever, we are behind you guys and at your side, you can count on us, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:15:36 (ZULU) 

I'm responding to those people who have asked about places to shoot (Hot Tips and Cold Shots).  The NRA has a large listing of ranges in each state (in the USA).  Go to the NRA home page at

In the extreme left column click on "shooting".

This will bring you to the Shooting the right of the heading "Shooting" click on "Shooting range locator".  At bottom of page under "Look up gun ranges by state" choose the state in which you wish to find ranges, and click on "submit query".

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards.

God Bless America!

(Will the  US military or other legitimate organization accept a sincere offer from a 49 year old High Master in good shape to help reduce the number of terrorists?)

Saverio Scozzafava <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:34:03 (ZULU) 


   Glad the wife is fine!! To bad about the class though. I knew you would become a fan of the 6.5s once you started shooting one. Its like shooting a 300WM with a lot less recoil.

   When I got mine I found out how much better I came at calling the wind too(HA)

Pat <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:35:53 (ZULU) 


Since you asked, I went back, asked, and finally found the source of the 2nd post of mine above....

The first post was wholly my own opinion....


Leslie Bright <>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:43:14 (ZULU) 

This was sent to me today....SSG



> >

> >I am the flag of the United States of America.

> >My name is Old Glory.

> >I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.

> >I stand watch in America's halls of justice.

> >I fly majestically over institutions of learning.

> >I stand guard with power in the world.

> >Look up and see me.

> >

> >I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.

> >I stand for freedom.

> >I am confident.

> >I am arrogant.

> >I am proud.

> >

> >When I am flown with my fellow banners,

> >my head is a little higher,

> >my colors a little truer.

> >

> >I bow to no one!

> >I am recognized all over the world.

> >I am worshipped - I am saluted.

> >I am loved - I am revered.

> >I am respected - and I am feared.

> >

> >I have fought in every battle of every war

> >for more then 200 years.

> >I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg,

> >Shiloh and Appamatox.

> >I was there at San Juan Hill,

> >the trenches of France,

> >in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome

> >and the beaches of Normandy, Guam.

> >Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon, Vietnam now me,

> >I was there.

> >I led my troops,

> >I was dirty, battleworn and tired,

> >but my soldiers cheered me

> >And I was proud.

> >I have been burned, torn and trampled

> >on the streets of countries I have helped set free.

> >It does not hurt, for I am invincible.

> >

> >I have been soiled upon, burned, torn

> >and trampled on the streets of my country.

> >And when it's by those whom I've served in battle - it hurts.

> >But I shall overcome - for I am strong.

> >

> >I have slipped the bonds of Earth

> >and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space

> >from my vantage point on the moon.

> >I have borne silent witness

> >to all of America's finest hours.

> >But my finest hours are yet to come.

> >

> >When I am torn into strips

> >and used as bandages

> >for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,

> >When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier,

> >Or when I lie in the trembling arms

> >of a grieving parent

> >at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,

> >I am proud.

> >





> >

SSG Adam G. Scott <>
Ft. Meade, MD, The ONLY one - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 20:48:11 (ZULU) 

Words to describe this cowardly act still have to be invented...

My deepest condolences go out to all Americans, but especially to the brave man and woman who died trying to save others.

I was training with my boys in Bergen-Belsen when i heard of the news. First we all thought it was some sort of bad joke, just couldnt believe something of this magnitude would ever happen for real, how sick must one be to even imagine of a coward attack like this, even "Tom Clancy" could not invent this.....

But when we saw the first images we realized it was for real.

On wednesday all german, english and dutch troops stopped shooting for half-an hour in respect for the first fallen victims of this WAR, because thats what this is, all out WAR.

Watching the images of palestinians celebrating made me puke and very angry, and worse, even in my own home-town, the Hague, folks from Marocco were celebrating as if it was christmas...those kind of people almost (almost) make me want to grab a scoped .308 and do something really stupid.

But when one is angry it is o so easy to forget that one bad apple does not mean the whole basket is full of rotten fruit.

Only this time "they" have gone to far, this is no longer the time to talk but it is time to respond and hurt them in an mid-eval kind of way, slow, long and hard.

Only hope for one thing, that before the USA retaliates, it will have thinked long and hard about the who and the how to.

I agree with Mike Miller and Mark D and in many ways with Pablito about this, but folks, when we (you) start talking about carpet bombing and even about using Trident Nukes....what is this world coming to???

Are we, the "civilised" western world gonna go as low as these rats have? Is the solution to start killing civilians?? Should we too kill inncocent woman and children, only because the enemy does it too,just in the name of revenge?

Yes, i am scared and not afraid nor ashamed to admit it, when people start to talk about nukes, because we all can be damned sure when the first american nukes go airborne, other nukes will land on American soil, and i hate to see that happen cause i have taken the whole of the USA deeply into my heart, and ofcourse WWIII will be lurking around the corner when that happens.

I think your Collin Powell has the answer (if there is such a thing as a answer in this case) when he said that this is going to be a long, hard and more importantely, a global fought WAR against terrorism.

The whole world, not just the USA but every country in the world should do what ever it takes to destroy/ eradicate this evil, to make sure that no-one will ever get the nerve to do something like this again.

I do not believe however that the whole of the middle-east is the enemy and carpet bombing or nuking country's who have helped and aided the enemy will not be the answer, it will only provide terrorist organisations like the Hamas with plenty of new recruits, no, like some of the rosterfarians said, go after all known terrorists and organisations, shoot the shit out of them and every one who helped and aided them and make sure you take out every cell and keep exterminating every time a new threat pops up, let the rest of the world know that no-one messes with the USA and gets away with it, just stay human and do not turn into the animals who organised these attacks.

The Israeli way does not work, for every civilian daddy they kill, 4 new hamas recruits stand up to revenge their daddy, and more innocent Israeli's get blown up, even as we speak.

My guess is if you carpet bomb whole cities, guilty or not, more and even more violent attacks on US woman and children will occur on US soil, and i know the will to send american soldiers abroad to do some killing is great among the American people at this time of greeving, but how many young american son's are you willing to sacrifice in the name of revenge, 1000, 20.000 even 50.000?

Will it bring back the woman and children who worked or visited the WTC??

Should we then do nothing and be forgiving??


Maybe i have no right to speak, because i have lost no-one in this attack, maybe i would think different if some-one of my own familiy had died in that attack, maybe... i hope not.

I am no coward, just a sergeant in an Army of a very small nation who also signed the Nato article number 5, and will be proud and willing to fight along my american brothers in arms against any terrorist abiding country if it ever comes to that, only hope that all concerning partys keep their heads clear and will make inteligent desicions.....

This event has made me loose all my desire to come to the states and do some shooting in any long-range competition, do not find it apropiate for me to bring a .308 long arm along my trip on an aircraft.

Anyways, may the guilty die slowly and all my thoughts are with the familys who are greeving about their losses, and for the service people who are still working and risking their own lives to rescue others, my respect is for you,


Se vis para parabellum.

Marco <>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:14:47 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen, these are trying times for us all.To those who lost loved ones I offer my sincerest condolences, the heinous acts are indeed an "act of war".Do not let these acts go unpunished, whether it takes weeks, months or years "never I repeat never" let the flames of vengence or the memories of the dead die.

Things will and must change in order to protect us as Americans, our borders are threatened,let our defense be our offense and let us awake to the truth and gain wisdom from the events which were brought to our doorstep.

Psalm 27:1-3: "The Lord is my light and my salvation - whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life - of whom shall I be afraid? When evil men advance against me to devour my flesh, when my enemies and my foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though an army besiege me, my heart will not fear; though war break out against me, even then will I be confident."

We will prevail as a nation, all of us as one.


pawn <>
USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:26:19 (ZULU) 


>"I heard just a few minutes ago that last night in Patterson, NJ there was street partying by an arab/muslim contingent.  Can anyone shed light on this?"<

Yes, it's true! (More of the "shocked" muslims).

Peter-L... drmarc...

>"Just heard they found 5 firemen in a buried SUV, ALIVE, any one confirm this?"<

Not true... it was reported earlier, but retracted. Two firefighters fell into a pit this morning, and came out this afternoon.

CatShooter <>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:40:46 (ZULU) 

Something that was sent to me in a mass mailing. It's kind of interesting:


This is a quatrain from one of his predictions:

"In the year of the new century and nine months, from the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.  Fire approaches the great new city..."

"In the city of York there will be a great collapse, 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos,  while the fortress fall the great leader will succumb the third big war will begin when the big city is burning"


2001 is the first year of the new century and this is the 9th month. New York is located at the 41st degree Latitude.  He also said that this will be the third World War and it would be bigger than the last two wars. I hope he is wrong, but judging from his predictions of Hitler, Napoleon, and Pearl Harbor....

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:55:27 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen, I heard this once when I was working sex crimes/crimes against children.  It is from German philosopher F. Nietzsche.  It has always stuck with me and I thought it also applied to the current situation.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he himself does not become a monster"

"When you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"

Gentlemen, pray that our leaders make intelligent, decisive choices,  based on the facts of the case, beyond refute and then . . . kick some raghead ass.

To our brothers overseas, Thanks.


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:55:28 (ZULU) 

Everybody calm down.  We're not nuking or carpet-bombing anyone.  The country is under adult supervision.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 22:50:07 (ZULU) 

RE: Nostradamus

It's a hoax. Ref the website below...

Roger C <>
Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 23:18:18 (ZULU) 


>'The country is under adult supervision."<

Aw Man... now you went and ruined it all... I thought there was a chance it could get more betterer :((


CatShooter <>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 23:25:02 (ZULU) 

God Damn, I said we needed a Pearl Harbor, but for the love of God?  I'm not at all happy at being right, feeling kinda low actually.

Spent a day and a night on top of a building with my rifle for the Corps, sure lots of others did the same.  Everybody checked in, and got lots of calls from people wanting to enlist.  Enough said on that.  Buddy of mine I went to Quantico with is NYFD.  Good guy, hard charger, was probably right in the middle of it.  Haven't heard from him.

The goal is preventing this from ever happening again.  We do that by killing everyone involved in making this happen, as well as killing anyone who gets involved in anything against the US in the future.  If putting the fear of God, via thermonuclear cauterization, into the terrs is required, so be it.  Do that as necessary, if it is necesary.  I'd like to keep as much of our civil rights as possible, preferably all of them.  US citizens have rights.  Everyone else is pretty much a walking, talking B-mod right now.  I don't particulary like myself for the fact that I dehumanize people so easily, but it'll make things easier should it come down to that.  This isn't going to be a standup fight, it's more clandestine and covert stuff ala green beanies.

Hey master Rick, you take Marines on permissive TAD orders at SOTIC?

God Bless.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 23:37:18 (ZULU) 

Guys,been offline for a couple of days due to kids sabotaging puter.

Deepest sympathy and prayers to y'all.

To all in or near the scene watch your arse.

To any vermin involved,kiss yours goodbye.



Gavan Willis <>
one shot , one raghead, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 00:11:04 (ZULU) 

Hey Hogs,

I post here VERY VERY rare so you may not reconize me . . . . .

I need to get some info.

I am in Northearstern PA and want to locate a dealer of Black Hills Ammo in easteren PA of close to me.  I can't find any that will deal. Any ideas and prices per case???  (300WinMag 190Gr HPBT)

Thanks and you help is apperciated!


DJ Bolinski <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 00:29:50 (ZULU) 

God Be With You All.

I pray that for those tha in the time to come will come under duress in the effort to root those out that have perpetrated this awful crime against humanity. I pray for those that have endured it.

I also pray for a chance to do my part, God willing.

I am young. 34

I have sand, and some shooting skills.

Would that -I- can make a difference.

Would that, many, feel the same.

It's not going to be pretty, I just hope a lot more than me feel the same.

avgshooter <>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 01:19:10 (ZULU) 

What the hell is wrong with people?  Larry King has a special on right now, and they interviewed some bleeding heart lib at a vigil in one of the affected cities.  She "Doesn't believe in violence" and thinks we should respond with "love and kindness".  I fail to understand how people can feel that if we were a country of pacifists, then this won't happen anymore.  Would she feel the same way if her 4 year old daughter were in one of these places when some sh#tbag decides too kill her simply because she's an American?  Probably thinks gun control would eliminate crime too.

Once, in high school, I asked my ROTC instructor (a Navy Master Chief) how the bible can be followed by someone who may have to kill, after all we're supposed to forgive, and turn the other cheek.  Without hesitation this teacher, MCPO and church minister replied "Yes, but we only have two cheeks."

No one with an appreation of life wants war, but we've definitely run out of cheeks.  While my job doesn't entail looking at the bastards in my sight as the trigger is pulled, it does have direct impact on our ability to effectively kill whatever target so deserves.  When we get everything sorted out and can identify the target(s), I'll gladly pass along the ammunition.

While I'm pissing about things, anyone have a line for contactin K-mart to give them a rash of crap over their idiotic reaction?

Providing the enemy the opportunity to die for his cause...


Caison <>
De, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 01:57:56 (ZULU) 

The Taliban is offering us a deal.  Pull a stunt like this then offer a deal.  Isn't that precious?

Let's put it this way:  I'm looking at your two deuces and am holding an ace high straight flush.  I call and raise.  It's just that simple.

averageshooter says that it's not going to be pretty.  Allow me to respectfully disagree.  It's going to be beautiful.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 02:24:21 (ZULU) 


What's the deal??  I just turned off the toob and didn't hear anything.

I gotta deal for them... ALL the Taliban surrenders themselves, all their political leaders, Osama Bin Laden, and all his crowd and followers, and we take them out, and let the country have new elections, and a 50 year probation period.

Plus they pay us $10,000,000,000,000 in damages, and reparations

Ya' think???

And, CDC... I also think it's gonna be B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L... I want 24/7 TV coverage of the attack, and a case of blank video tapes.


CatShooter <>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 02:41:46 (ZULU) 

I'm sorry CDC. It's going to to beautiful to finally have some justice for the things rendered unto us. I meant ugly and just in our retribution. War is never pretty. I speak as a young man that wants justice and understand the terrible aspect of war. My grandfather and my father have explained this to me. Still I want to help. Glad to see you back CDC. It's been some time.

acgshooter <>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:08:47 (ZULU) 

Pablo:  My mistake.

averageshooter:  Justice is a nice mild concept we reserve for respectable criminals.  They don't fear it, and we aren't going to settle for it.  They gave us moral license to see them with thier backs broke in Hell.

See the look in Dubya's eye?  He was a fighter pilot.  He's settling in.  He'll do fine.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:13:04 (ZULU) 

Mark D. Wrote:

    We should send all the aid we can to the countries that support terrorist.

    Put me down for one bodybag filled with pig shit!!

Bill Byford <>
IL, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:24:10 (ZULU) 

A few Usama Bin Laden Graphics you might like are at:

You may use these on your own websites, as wallpaper on your pc, as screensaver photos on your pc, or (someone emailed me and asked this) as targets if you desire.

At this hour I have SIX of them posted.



Charles - Usama Fanclub Webmaster <>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:47:51 (ZULU) 

As I write this I am watching the news and they are telling of a rescue attempt for 10 police officers trapped in the rubble who managed to contact the outside.  I hope to God that they are reached in time and that others are also found.  I would like to express my condolenses to all who have lost some one in this tradegy and pray that those who are missing are found alive.  I am currently on standby alert and am waiting fro a phone call which might or might not come.  A lot of people are attempting to lay blame for this tradegy and are rightly blaming the terrorist factions most likely responsible.  It should also be realized just what allowed this to occur.  It was not lax security by the men and women charged with that responsibility nor to the intelligence agencies which have been ham strung for years now.  the ultimate responsibility for this goes to the "leadership" with which we lived with for 8 years which was to afraid of looking "bad" infront of the world community, the writers of history or who ever it was that he was trying to impress.  william Jefferson Clinton finally has that legacy which he so desperately wanted.  According to the news he was at the scene in NY meeting with the victims.  It's to late to get absolution for this one.

    Terrorists are like criminals in the fact that they only strike when they believe they can get away with it.  when they know that their vivtims are afraid and will not fight back.  We have a new leader and it is time for us to stop being afraid... and everyone else to start.  If they want a holy war, I say give them holy hell.  Always payback in excess of what you receive.  Good hunting to all those headed into the darkness.

                  John Murphy

MILFORD, NH, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 04:31:56 (ZULU) 

It's a Boy...

I have been reading the roster for a few years, and learned much here.

This past week, has been terrible, really, for the "free world".  I myself feel that there are some necessary responses to follow.  I also wonder, how far will it go, and how much of the "back and forth" will be shared.

Then I also remember, that my wife is pregnant, or at least she was.

Today, she gave me a baby boy, born at 4:37 pm, local time, (not sure what that is "zulu")  After two girls, I now have a son, and it coincidentally is my birthday today also.  I, like all other fathers, want everything to be the best for my children, yet all this that is going on here, sure complicates the thoughts.

At 8 lbs, 11 oz. and 22 inches long, our red-headed "Joshua" is here, and I truly hope, that however this US-MidEast situation is dealt with, there will be no residual problems for him to have to deal with in his lifetime...

Finished with the philosophy for the day, and now getting the old M70, .300 winnie out for some moose hunting in the next month.  Gotta fill the freezer.


oh yeah,,, just how old should your first son be, before he gets his first rifle?  After all, Joshua is already 6 hours, and 18 minutes old.

just a thought,,,,,

God Bless, and stay safe.

Sean Thomas <>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 06:02:42 (ZULU) 


Target sited.

Target locked...

Gung Ho Gung Ho..!!!!!!!!!

I still I hope I can help. Have given blood already.

avgshooter <>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 06:28:38 (ZULU) 

Fitz...RE: America: The Good Neighbor...

This was written in 1971. It saw Top 40 airplay in 1973, and the guy who wrote it died in 1984. Just thought you might like to know.


Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 07:24:15 (ZULU) 

Sean Thomas, congrats with your boy, good to hear something positiv in these days of sorrow and greeve.

Just a "few" hours more and he should be able to hold and shoot his first rifle, i'd say do not give him a heavy calibre for his first rifle, start with a .308 or 30-06, scoped ofcourse, and when he is old enough to say "range me", you might want to give him something heavier like a .338, and maybe for his second birthday he would apreciate a nice toy like the Barret .50 or the new 25 mm Steyer anti-material rifle....


Another wave of terrorist attacks has been prevented, about 10 new terrorist have been arrested on the airports of new york, 4 of them were already inside a plane ready for take-off...1 question pops to my mind; How is it possible that even now, after these horror story's it is still possible for wanna-be terrorists to gain acces to a plane with knifes and fake pilot-id's???

How many of these cells are still walking around and waiting to board new planes??

Maybe they should give the arrested suspects to us, rosterfarians and let them loose on a training course like SMTC, let them run on the 600 yard line, give us some good moving target practice....i think i can put a round or 3 in a kneecap or 2 at that range...

Anger is such an evil feeling...

Hope we soon get back to our normal shooting/ rifles/ ammo/ sniper related discussions again,


Scientia et usu in vita permanemus

Marco <>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 07:37:11 (ZULU) 

American Express has a special deal...


The price of:

1 - Authentic Towel, robe, and sandles, about $350.

2 - M24 and Mk4-M3, with all kit, about $4,000.

3 - Forged papers and forged Afganistan passport, about $15,000.

4 - Chartered Jet to middle east, about $40,000.

5 - Camel and guides to Afganistan, about $5,000.

6 - Osama Bin Laden in your crosshairs, P-R-I-C-E-L-E-S-S



CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 10:57:56 (ZULU) 

Ref: Air Travel w/firearms

In light of recent events and the increased airline security I wonder what effect if any there will be on our ability to travel with firearms in our checked baggage?  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Ref: Ranges In the Northeast

Yesterday I visited the NRA web site and reviewed the list of ranges in New York State.  The longest range (500 yards) listed is at Camp Smith along the Hudson.  Have any of you shot there?  If so I'd like to learn more about it.

Ref: Anger

We're all angry about the attacks as we should be.  Just remember that there is a very real difference between THEM and US.  We're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys.  If we begin to act like THEM we'll lose the right to call ourselves the Good Guys.  We should show the Bad Guys no quarter but try very hard to avoid wanton killing.  Would I find it gratifying to "glaze" Afghanistan? Yes!  Would this solve the problem permanently?  I doubt it.

Ref: The Enemy

From what I've seen on TV I've been able to figure out this much.  They are not cowards.  They willingly died for their cause.  They are not stupid.  Their planning and execution of the attacks was complex and nearly flawless.  They are well funded.  What they did took lots of cash.  They are ruthless.  They cannot be negotiated with.  They cannot be intimidated.  They will fight.  They are not few.  From what I've see so far there's a bunch of them.  Those of us chosen to hunt these people I suggest you leave the handcuffs off your packing list.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:06:10 (ZULU) 

Afghans were old hands at fighting in those mountains when Alexander The Great marched through.  They are goddamned good at it.  Research the British and Russian experiences there.  Neither were pleasant.  Pay particular attention to thier use of rifles.  We have no monopoly.  This isn't Desert Storm.  The boobs on the tube were contemplating a mass airbourne assault by The 82nd.  That would be stupidity beyond measure.

Arabs aren't the enemy.  That's good, because there are a lot of them.  If I remember right there are about 750,000,000 Muslims.  The Bad Guys expect us to do something to polarize and radicalize The Believers.  The "Kill 'em all" strategy espoused by the guy who thinks that I'm an "uneducated moron", a "bleeding heart liberal" and a "coward" would seem unworkable.

Our leadership is good and we hold the cards.  Through the use of patience, courage, intelligence and an iron-clad and ruthless determination we will exact our revenge and send this dark age scum to fry in Hell.

Remember with reverence The Men on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.  That was as good as Bastione or The Alamo.

We are descended from the greatest warriors in history.  They were lions.  They demand nothing less of us.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:23:01 (ZULU) 

I would like to start by offering my heart felt condolences to all those whom have lost loved ones in these mindless acts of terror!

My country has lived with a terrorist threat for as long as I remember

and I understand the shock, horror and bitterness such acts cause.

however the scale of recent events dwarves our own experiences in the UK so your fury as individuals is understandable.

For many years, having served in areas where our hands are tied and the terrorists run amok due to the rule of Law, I have felt that the only way to fight Fear is with Fear!

We know who these people are, where they live and yet they bathe in wealth and power, laughing at our constraints.

No More!

We must hunt these people down wherever they hide and irradicate them from the face of the Earth. I personally do not wish to see them bombed into submission, History proves this doesn't work, Saddams still there. I not saying don't bomb, I just saying it would be far nicer to get up close and personal with these individuals to experience their fear as they gasp their final breath.

As a Nation we stand at your side, poised ready to strike!

God Bless You All, and good luck in what is about to become!


Slugboy <>
England - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:57:47 (ZULU) 

Hey   ALLAH !!!    Unite this you Raghead Mother F%$#*r

                 It's Payback Time  !!!!!

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 13:34:41 (ZULU) 

First, my sincerest sympathy and hopes go out to anyone touched in any way by the recent tradegy...  I am fortunate in that the friends I have who were in and around the WTC at the time have all checked in and I am truly grateful.

Second, I have another quick question from a new shooter.  Is there a need to have a gunsmith install the Badger rail on my new Remington 700 or do most people install them on their own?

I'm mechanically inclined but no gunsmith...

Thanks for any advice....

James Gibbons

James Gibbons <>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 13:38:26 (ZULU) 

Slugboy - my guess is we all will be going in to dig the vermin out - NATO combined force or something like that - Light/ABN inf and SF types - close with and destroy the enemy

'lito - like always you slay me.

Kevin - of the GWN <>
Canada - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 14:11:51 (ZULU) 

Tony, well said.  De Oppresso Liber the souls of the T's.  Send them to their god!

Pablito, good to go.  Mildots to go before he sleeps.

Slugboy, great words.  Thank you for the support of all of our people.

CDC, never heard anyone call you a moron.  Great clips you have posted. Keep it up.

On Afgahistan, we are not the Russians and any country can be taken if the need be.  I said yetserday we need to do this with great thought and I continue to believe this.  However that does not mean I am against taking any country that refuses to cooperate.  Like I said hunt down anyone that has anything to do with this: Before During or after and that includes hiding the dirt bags.


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 15:17:33 (ZULU) 

Ragged Old Flag

By John R. Cash, © 1974 House of Cash, Inc.


 I walked through a county courthouse square,

 On a park bench an old man was sitting there.

 I said, "Your old courthouse is kinda run down."

 He said, "Naw, it'll do for our little town."

 I said, "Your old flagpole has leaned a little bit,

 And that's a Ragged Old Flag you got hanging on it."

 He said, "Have a seat," and I sat down.

 "Is this the first time you've been to our little town?"

 I said, "I think it is." He said, "I don't like to brag,

 But we're kinda proud of that Ragged Old Flag.

 "You see, we got a little hole in that flag there when

      Washington took it across the Delaware.

 And it got powder-burned the night Francis Scott Key

 Sat watching it writing Say Can You See.

 And it got a bad rip in New Orleans

 With Packingham and Jackson tuggin' at its seems.

 "And it almost fell at the Alamo

 Beside the Texas flag, but she waved on though.

 She got cut with a sword at Chancellorsville

 And she got cut again at Shiloh Hill.

 There was Robert E. Lee, Beauregard, and Bragg,

 And the south wind blew hard on that Ragged Old Flag.

 "On Flanders Field in World War I

 She got a big hole from a Bertha gun.

 She turned blood red in World War II.

 She hung limp and low by the time it was through.

 She was in Korea and Vietnam.

 She was sent where she was by her Uncle Sam.

 "She waved from our ships upon the briny foam,

 And now they've about quit waving her back here at home.

 In her own good land here she's been abused --

 She's been burned, dishonored, denied, and refused.

 "And the government for which she stands

 Is scandalized throughout the land.

 And she's getting threadbare and wearing thin,

 But she's in good shape for the shape she's in.

 'Cause she's been through the fire before

 And I believe she can take a whole lot more.

 "So we raise her up every morning, take her

      down every night.

 We don't let her touch the ground and we fold

      her up right.

 On second thought, I do like to brag,

 'Cause I'm mighty proud of that Ragged Old Flag."

Just wanted to share this with others as it's been shared with me..

God bless America

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 16:00:20 (ZULU) 


   I have to disagree with you. In this day and age it is easy to take a country but nearly impossible to hold it. You could never hold Afganastan, as the Russians found out. It would be like trying to hold this country.

   Every last man, child and woman who had or could use a gun would attack you any chance they got. The cost would be to high for any army. Besides that would never be and option you would only creat more hate.

   We need to declare war on "THE" terrorists, Arabs, Irish, Spanish, Korean, Etc. If your name comes up as a bad guy you die. They should be hunted down and shot in the streets or as they sleep. This is the only way to do it right and not make a "Holy War" out of it. Your not signaling out any race or religion just "Terrorist" plain and simple. You come up on the list you die, no trials just death.

Pat <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 16:27:31 (ZULU) 

I agree Pat, I feel the solution must involve the best intelligence agency we can put together and global surgical strike teams to "erase" the terrorist's when we identify them. This should all be done well before they have the chance to organize. I just wonder, does the American public as a whole have the stomach to deal with this type of assasination campaign for the long haul. I feel for the most part the public's attention span is very short. Right now everybody is pissed, angry, and ready for some payback.But wait 5 or 6 months when the "war" inconveniences them, what then, a Vietnam war type homefront? I hope I am wrong but of late I have little faith in the majority of our liberal citizens ie.. CLINTON'S, we could just barely squeek President Bush into office.


drmarc <>
Hilbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:00:15 (ZULU) 


So when the other guys were hangin' at Dunkin Donuts, you were sneekin a peak at Robert Frost... I'm impressed.


I'm not so sure that the Russians would have had such a hard time, if it wasn't for us "Training" and supplying weapons to that bastard, Osama Bin Laden...

... hey wait a minute... lemme see now. We trained and armed Ho Che' Min against the Japanese and he turned against us, - we trained and armed Iraq against Iran and they turned against us, - and we trained and armed Iran against Iraq and they turned against us, so now they're both against us, - we trained Osama bin Laden against the Rooskies, and he turned against us, - we helped Castro, and he turned against us... we helped Haiti, and they shoot at us, and have stollen $10,000,000,000 (10 Billion) of our aid dollars in the last 5 years, AND they hate us, - and then there are all the little South American shit bird countries that we helped, and now they flip us the bird... I don't wanna even talk about Africa... we try to feed the starving Somali's and we get creamed, - and don't even mention the European countries that still owe us more money than our own national debt... in both money, and in the blood of our fathers (but they don't want to get involved). Japan looses a war that they started, and we poor billions and billions into their country to get it back on it's feet, and they won't let our products in, but flood our markets with their stuff... China? We pour trillions into their country to give them a business start, and they rob us, and corrupt our elections.

I ain't no rocket scientist on foreign affairs, but I could do a damn better job picking our allies by throwing a dart at a map, than the government has.

I think I could count our REAL allies on two hands, and maybe a few toes.  The rest are whores, with their hands out, and Uncle Sam is the stupid "john" who thinks you can buy love with cash... HA! (as Pat would say!) Double HA!

Bring our aid, our care packages, our cash, and our military HOME, and lets look out for our own... you daddys out there want your sons to die for this crap... these people ain't worth a drop of Scooter's piss.


I'm tired of the TV telling me what happened on Tuesday, I know what happened... I wanna know about what is gonna happen.

I hear that the head "rag" from the Taliban says if we attack Afganistan, he'll retaliate with terrorism... HELLO??? Is there any intellegent life in Afganistan?  Or is the sum total of all their IQ's together, about 63???

What the hell was Tuesday, and Beruit, and Lockerbee, and the Embasies, and... and... and... and...???

It's our turn, Dummies!

I wish, along with the SEALs, the SF, and all the rest, that we had trained terrorist squads... we got a lot to learn about 21st century war from them little Isreali puppies... pound for pound, they have it nailed down to a science.

I'm starting to rant... sorry, I need a nappie.


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:10:00 (ZULU) 

Youz bumz that think we can beat this thing with the "Best Intellegence"... go here"

>From The Atlantic, July 2001 issue:

A former senior Near East Division operative says, "The CIA probably doesn't have a single truly qualified Arabic-speaking officer of Middle Eastern background who can play a believable Muslim fundamentalist who would volunteer to spend years of his life with shitty food and no women in the mountains of Afghanistan. For Christ's sake, most case officers live in the suburbs of Virginia. We don't do that kind of thing." A younger case officer boils the problem down even further: "Operations that include diarrhea as a way of life don't happen."

Behind-the-lines counterterrorism operations are just too dangerous for CIA officers to participate in directly. When I was in the Directorate of Operations, the Agency would deploy a small army of officers for a meeting with a possibly dangerous foreigner if he couldn't be met in the safety of a U.S. embassy or consulate. Officers still in the clandestine service say that the Agency's risk-averse, bureaucratic nature--which mirrors, of course, the growing physical risk-aversion of American society--has only gotten worse.


Intellegence! what Intellegence? we ain't got no steeenkin Intellegence!

They hang out in bars in George Town, and guess at what's going on.


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:21:15 (ZULU) 

'Lito, My reference above was with the inadequacy of our present intelligence system in mind, we need real intelligence and real nasty mo-fo's to do this type work.


drmarc <>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:27:10 (ZULU) 

James Gibbons,

You'll probably have to look else where for rifle and shooting related talk. This is the new Terrorist Attack Country Duty Roster.

Rob01 <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:03:42 (ZULU) 

Dear Hogs,

Our country has suffered nearly 5,000 innocent casualties whose only crime was showing up for work or buying a plane ticket.

We have seen and heard what we believe is uncommon valor by average citizens, knowing they are going to die, sacrificing themselves to keep savages from wreaking further damage on our country.

We have seen the images of firemen and policemen rushing TOWARDS danger to rescue people they don't know, whose only connection to them was they were citizens in harm's way, and who tragically shared their fate.

This is the beginning of a long war.  A world war.  It won't be an MTV sound-byte special that will go away in a week.  I don't believe you will see attention for it die away soon when you consider more innocent, non-uniformed victims died Tuesday than all the soldiers and sailors at Pearl Harbor and D-Day combined.

You immediately saw who our true friends are.  Queen Elizabeth ordered, for the first time ever, the "Star-Spangled Banner" to be played at the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace.  500 British citizens are believed dead in the WTC ruins, more than in any other single domestic terrorist attack.  The Germans immediately signed up affirming their full support.

It's ironic that Article 5 of the NATO Treaty (which was written to ensure the United States would cross the Atlantic to support any European NATO partner attacked by an external foe) would bring the Alliance to remind us that "An attack on one is an attack on all."

Notice once people realize the United States believes it has been morally wronged or screwed, pariahs take notice -- Cuba and Libya both immediately announced "Wasn't me!", knowing the barely leashed rage of Mr. Fair Play will begin his hunt.

Shit-can this idiot talk ASAP of "Rag-Heads and Camel-jocks".  It's like the ignorance of those who blame us gun-owners any time some dip-shit steals a gun and blasts an innocent.  It is stupid and hateful incitement.  I would recommend you ask any of your Arab-American or Islamic-language acquaintances to join the FBI, NSA, or CIA -- we're going to need their help in the years to come.  And by the way, our Gulf allies will be crucial to our future operations (in case you think air crews will be able to fly back and forth to Europe after every sortie, or troops will be able to tread water forever on their way to and from inland targets).

Put your money where your mouth is.  This is the reason we have a 2nd Amendment and the DCM/CMP.  If, like in WWII we need a cadre to quickly train the inducted youngster or enlistee of America to handle weapons and shoot, you will soon hear the call.  The President has just activated 35,000 Reservists.  In a full war, he can activate a million more, and recall the Inactive Ready Reserve and the Retired Reserve "For the duration plus one year" (read your initial enlistment contract).  Learn how to shoot and teach service rifle or sniper rifle marksmanship.

Don't be surprised if it'll be hard to buy military-caliber brass, bullets, and components soon.

We will cut out this cancer from humanity, but it won't be quick, it won't be easy, and it won't be cheap in terms of dollars and lives.

But we WILL win.

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:04:30 (ZULU) 


Let me recap the situation Bonny Prince Ronny faced in the early '80s.  I'm writing all this is off the top of my head while listening to a lecture on data structures, so forgive the sloppiness.

Carter let the Sovs grab Ethiopia, Aden, Mozambique, and Angola.  The Sovs had the power to shut down the shipping lanes around Africa, the oil from The Persian Gulf and were in sight of controlling the irreplaceable South African strategic minerals.

They were implementing a mean and merciless policy designed to bypass our historical advantage of being surrounded by oceans by hitting our Achilles heel in Central America.  They were trying to flank us so they could move on us through Mexico. They were coming, no bullshit.

The Russkies had made a brilliant tactical move to Kabul in order to achieve thier strategic goal of taking the warm water port they had craved since the time of the Czars.  The road to that port had always been through Afghanastan.  That's why the British were there in the 19th century.

Reagan saw that they had stretched themselves thin and that their entire Imperial structure could be destroyed by bleeding The USSR white in it's soft underbelly before it could close it's grip around our neck.

It worked and we won The Cold War.

Out West we were pissed because CIA purchases had driven up the cost of pack mules.

But that can can be forgiven.  God Bless Ronald Reagan anyway.

Our intelligence agencies were dismantled starting about 1973 by a bunch of weenies starting with Senator Frank Church.

But all that is "coulda-woulda-shoulda".  None of it is relavent.

We have a war to prosecute right here right now.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:34:06 (ZULU) 

Pat you are wrong we agree.  I suggest we take the country if need be and get who they wont give us.  I have no interest in keeping land in another country.  Give them a list of who we will come get if they dont hand them over, and then go in if we dont have them handed to us.

Pablito remeber this "By any means necessary"? Seems perfect now.  I can count higher than my fingers and toes also.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:46:07 (ZULU) 

Hey fellas, I cannot find a US flag anywhere in SE Texas.  Big or small, they are gone (off the shelves)  !!!!!!!!!!  Old Glory flying all over the place.  Folks have resorted to red, white and blue ribbons.  Wonderful to see.

I am angry for the dead and wounded and compassionate for their survivors.  But damn, I am glad to see my Country bowed up.  We have always had to do this.  The Israelis too, for a much longer time than us. (Pharoah/Hitler/Arafat).  No one has to tell this crowd that freedom ain't cheap and some asshole is always gonna try us.

I'd love to get bin Laden in the woods. I wonder just how good he really is.



PS:  For all you TX Police, I spoke with an FAA Aviation Safety Inspector in Houston just now who is also a pilot and reserve deputy Sheriff.  He double checked for me and told me that Peace Officers may still fly with their weapons under the old rules.  He was busy as hell.  I didn't think to ask about competitors/hunters.  Sorry.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:52:37 (ZULU) 


Spoken as a true SF soldier and commander.   We all need to refocus our thoughts.   Myself included.  Anger and rage will only make our foe stronger and harder to defeat.

I guess I'm pissed because the bastards used the same guerrilla tactics we have used ourselfs.  Swift violent attacks designed to inflict maximum damage and physcological terror with economy of force and never to dominate the objective as to allow for rapid withdrawal.

It's time for us all to reassess the mission requirements.

It's just difficult to believe it had to happen on our own soil.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 19:15:28 (ZULU) 

Anybody else notice ole Farrakhan ain't had much to say lately ?

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 19:25:03 (ZULU) 


I think he got cancer or somfin, about 8 months ago... and it's pretty bad... I guess he wasn't on Alla's "A" list... ;)


Good review of history.


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 19:50:55 (ZULU) 


Michael from Australia asked me to post the following, since he can't use his work email address to register.

Could you please post a simple message on the forum on my behalf expressing the sincere sympathies of myself, my family and my Co-workers to all in the US effected by this act undertaken by cowardly scum.   To the members of the emergency services working to find survivors etc take care and remember the worlds thoughts and prayers for your collective safety are with you.

Secondly, to the men and women of the US Armed Services - my/our thoughts and prayers with you also, rely on your training, watch your backs and those of your buddies and please all come home when this is over.

Yours sincerely,

Michael.   Canberra - Australia.

Marius - For Michael. Canberra - Australia. <>
Canberra, Australia - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 21:21:42 (ZULU) 

What Sinister said.  Every war is going to be over by Christmas.  None of them ever are.

In the words of the great man, "...blood and sweat and toil and tears..."

If you are of enlistment age and you are not in something serious like combat arms, remedy that now or forever hold your manhood cheap.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 21:39:04 (ZULU) 


Amidst all the talk I'm still trying to do my job here at Sniper Country.  I have added another article, most interesting, especially in the light of the recent terrorist attacks in the US.

Hijacked Bus Takedown: The Basics.


Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 22:10:13 (ZULU) 


God Bless America!  I temper the my sorrow with the pride I feel of being an American!

I'm still lookin at knives.  Everyone told me to buy a Ka-Bar, so I will.  They just came out with new Ka-Bar's made of D2 tool steel.  Does anyone have any experience with the D2?  It is expensive but cost isn't necessarily a concern, would rather buy it next month and get the right gear if need be.

I'm working on the ruck, looks like it will be the BH Patrol Pack.

Thanks everyone for your help.


Tim <>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 23:15:10 (ZULU)

Hey Sinister Dave...need any SATCOM guys???...Have plenty of 4187's and soldiers ready...SSG

SSG Adam G. Scott <>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 00:22:42 (ZULU) 

Newbie test and...

My deepest regrets to the brothers and families who lost loved ones in the aggression.  For that newest young dude.  What?!?  Your dad didn't get you a gun for your "BIRTH" day?!  I think he needs to get busy.

Gentlemen,  I think we all know what to do individually.  With quiet professionalism lets go do it.  Catshooter, let me know when the cats are ready to fight.

I will be ramping up my goal of getting into the ARNG by December.  The recruiter told me that he has never heard of a 43 year old signing with an infantry outfit.  OK so I've done alot of ignorant things before this so why stop now.

Pat H

"Give me Liberty or Give me Death"

Pat Henry <>
MD, US of A - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 01:45:22 (ZULU) 

Looks like the Ozzies and Kiwis have activated the ANZUS (Australia-New Zealand-US) Treaty.  It looks like our real friends are standing up to be counted (remember that Jimmy Stewart movie at Christmas, "It's a Wonderful Life"?  You may not be sure who your friends are when you don't need 'em, but when you do, it's nice to have buddies).

As for money where your mouth is -- this is from Dick Culver's board:


Posted By: Bob in AZ <>

Date: Friday, 14 September 2001, at 1:29 p.m.

Called the Arizona National Guard and at the age of 41 I asked to sign back up for duty. I have 10 years prior service and feel it's time to put the uniform back on.

They said YES!

I'm a military Distinguished Rifleman and asked for a small arms training unit if possible.  Leaving work now to get my military papers in order.

Just can't watch TV anymore.  Never was one to sit on the side line.


So, back to Sniper Country.  Are you ready?  Can you be ready to teach something -- ANYTHING in 6 months (to soldiers or even Boy Scouts who may mature to enlistment or draft age before this is all over -- outdoors skills, land nav, first aid, short-wave radio, etc.)?  Do you have the technical background to teach M16 Basic Rifle Marksmanship, or M24 sniping?  Nothing fancy, with off-the-rack musketry with out-of-the-box 5.56 and M118, 852, or 118LR.

If you're serious and the country calls, don't be found wanting.  If you're old and broken, or not draftable, or medically unqualified, or draft-deferred (clergy, critical national industry, public safety, multiple kids, etc.) there will still be a need.

Don't mean to sound like the prophet of doom, but I was once taught "A realist is a pessimist stripped for combat."

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 02:22:25 (ZULU) 

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 04:10:59 (ZULU) 

Marco, how was B,B, have you noticed it always rains there? I have the 300m Brit range booked for Tuesday morning, still haven't got a hold of any sub sonic ammo, guess there isn't much demand for it here,

Can you guys get BBC parliament coverage, I was watching it on sky this morning, made me sick for a start, they had the house of lords on, they started of with the labour party whimps, they basicaly said that they support the US in any preventetive measures, but not in any retaliation, then a real Lady took the show, Barroness Park of Monmouth, she made a brilliant speach, attacking the Labour party for their blatent lack of spending in Intelligence and Defence, lack of action in national security issues, well she stuck it to em.

Are you aware that Islamic activists have been training for war in Great Britain, The Government have known this for months and have done nothing about it, they where infiltrated and filmed, training how to take down a plane taking off or comming in to land, how to build bombs, small unit tactics,etc, Afgan, Sudanese and a few others, our wonderfull Blair government and the security services have been presented with this information and have sat on their hands, this was also bieng debated in the House of Lords today, don't believe me, call your Senator or MP and ask. I hope Blair can look in the mirror, well he has so far talked the talk, guess we will see if he can walk the walk,be pleased your rid of Clinton, God Bless. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 04:28:23 (ZULU) 

Lito, American Express: priceless!

Seriously guys, whats your trick to getting crosshairs vertical/horizontal on the first try?

Now that planes are flying, are firearms O.K. to ship?

There is one in Oregon that needs me ; )

4i's <>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 05:45:48 (ZULU) 

Peter Lincoln:  You guys faced up to Julius Caesar, Napoleon and Hitler and you'll do fine now.  You are the same men you were at Rourke's Drift, Balaclava and Arnhiem.  Can't ask for better than that.

(Sorry about the spelling Marco.)

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 09:23:25 (ZULU) 


I GUARANTEE AS SOON AS I HEAR A CALL TO ARMS I WILL ENLIST...  This is my country, my generation, and I will be damned if I am going to leave it to you pricks alone to defend, HA!!  at one time, I could hit the broad side, eh!!!



JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 10:17:03 (ZULU) 

Guys, Word in this mornings "news" that the wise men of WalMart and KMart have suspended sales of firearms and ammunition until 9/21. In other words, your God given rights first must pass muster in Berryville etc before exercising said rights. There is an evil within as well, and I hope and pray these troubled times will cause us to look within. Rant off, just put me over the edge this a.m. that there are folks with that mindset in our great land. Thoughts and prayers to all and God bless.

Seuss <>
USA USA USA, USA USA, USA USA USA USA USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 12:09:29 (ZULU) 

Seuss, if you have to run out and buy guns and ammo when something like this happens then you are already far behind the 8 ball. I think this shows everyone that having a little on hand is a good thing.

Personally I think it's a BS move on the part of Walmart and K Mart and another reason to use local gun shops.

Rob01 <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 12:57:07 (ZULU) 

Buckley with center hit:

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 14:00:13 (ZULU) 


Mount your rifle in a cradle or sandbags and make sure it's verticle (a spirit level will do).

Take a white string or parachute cord, and tie a can or plumb-bob to the end.  Go down range and suspend from a tree branch.  True verticle line (just align your verticle cross-hair parallel).  Tighten rings.  Voila.

Sinister Dave <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 14:46:22 (ZULU) 

CDC, seen you shoot will take you as a spotter.  We have the same goal.

I am tring to pull any and all strings to get where I can work with military either as a grunt or an instructor.  Lets hope they will take my old fat butt for something useful.

Here is an immediate offer.  I am going to contact local ranges and ask for them to donate the ranges to train guys going in the military or who are already in.  If I can arrainge this I will offer classes to all who will defend us.  The cost will be get your butt there and bring the equipment needed to shoot.  I will do this for free.

I urge others with similar backgrounds to mine to do the same thing.  Lets get some well trained guys going in so the military does not have to do everything.

Here goes, all in my AO, Central Calif who are going in email me if you want to attend.  This is not an offer for guys who are not going in.  Letter I may do something similar for the home bound guys but right now its for military only.

Mike Miller

MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 17:18:00 (ZULU) 

 Look at this:  It's very strange....

The date of the attack:   9/11 -  9 + 1 + 1 = 11

September 11th is the  254th  day of the year:   2 + 5 + 4 = 11

After September 11th there are  111  days left to the end of the year.

119  is the area code to Iraq/Iran.   1 + 1 + 9 = 11

Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11

The first plane to hit the towers was  Flight 11

I Have More.......

State of New York - The 11 State added to the Union

New York City - 11 Letters

Afghanistan  - 11 Letters

The Pentagon - 11 Letters

Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted or orchestrating the attack on the

WTC in 1993)

Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11

Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

Crazy huh??

CR <>
PC, Ok, USA (By God!) - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 19:07:23 (ZULU) 

CDC, the British people of Britain are bye and large 100% behind you all, the British Army, Navy, Airforce and Emergency services are 100% to be relied upon,and so too can old fart, has beens like me, but Blair and his government worry me, you can trust him no more than you guys trusted Bill Clinton, in the UK there is a very large muslim community, thats a lot of votes, there is among them a hard core of extreemists, who have already been causing civil unrest in many towns and cities all year,riots etc,  you can bet on more trouble when we get this show on the road,I say we, guess us usetabees won't have much to do with it,but if they bring back the Home Guard, then I'm Dad's Army bound.some one came up here with a knd ciname for bin laden, he is now known here localy as Bin Liner (Brit for Garbage Bag).

on a slightly happier note, I just got a $1600 back payment on the increase in my War Pension,I am wondering what kind of goodies to spend it on and I feel like donating some of it, has any one set up a victims fund over there?

Some of it will go on buying my Marlin CQB (Close Quarter Boar) lever rifle in 450 marlin. Guess the wife will claim most of the rest..Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 19:43:28 (ZULU) 

Peter:  You'll come through.

CR:  Numerology is a simple little game.  Pick any event and a number under 20.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 20:10:51 (ZULU) 

I just saw a picture of the New York sky line, with a 4 towered World Trade Centre, standing tall above all, with a great big US flag flying from the top, a caption on the picture says " The New World Trade Centre 2005, Fuck You Bin Laden"  any body know the fax number for the Afgani government, I'll fax it to the F__ker's. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 20:44:55 (ZULU) 

Ref: Walmart Rumor

I just bought a case of shotgun ammo. at my local Walmart and there are still firearms for sale.

nuf said


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:31:08 (ZULU) 

Kevin I believe they put guns and ammo back on sale yesterday or Thursday but they did pull it on Tuesday and I believe Wednesday. A guy I work with went to by some .223 Tueasday afternoon and it was a no go. Glad to see they are back to selling it though.

Rob01 <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:40:39 (ZULU) 


Re: victim's fund

United Way and The New York Community Trust have established the September 11th Fund. Your contribution will be used to mobilize resources to respond to the urgent needs of victims and their families affected by these attacks.

More info and a link to contribute online can be found at:

jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:43:25 (ZULU) 

JC, thanks for the info, I will pass this on also, to all my colleagues, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:53:39 (ZULU) 

Peter,  "..routine..", "..previously scheduled.." huh?

Smile when you bullshit me.

Seems Iran sealed its border and Pakistan is in 100%.  So, unless the Russkies get cute, there will be none of that "Ho Chi Minh Trail" nonsense.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 22:27:40 (ZULU) 

Hey CDC, looks like Blair is walking the walk, you guys know we Brits will back you all the way, I still don't trust Blair, he has no backbone, I personaly believe that no one should be allowed to lead a nation when they haven't lead men militairily, Maggy Thatcher is my 1 exception.

I am thinking of starting a collection of Sniper rifles, starting with WW2 Brit and US, any one else got a collection like this? Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 22:53:13 (ZULU) 

Greetings Folks,

Seems almost impossible to find flags for sale now a days. I have a stop-gap measure prepared for ya.

One of the readers sent me a request for a new graphic to go along with the Anti-Bin Lauden graphics I have posted on my site. The request was for a printable American ANTENNA FLAG.

Well in response to what we think is a very good request, MemorablePlaces has designed an Antenna Flag that can be cut out, folded over, and either taped or contact papered to your car antenna.

The Antenna Flag can be found at:

More patriotic images (that you can either print out or use as wallpaper or screensavers) are available here:

I have gotten some nice mail about this stuff... Thanks!  I even have it on good authority that an unnamed reader has posted at least one of these at the post office.. hehehe Fine By Me!

Feel free to repost the URLs.

Take care,


PS: Thanks to the semi-annonymous gentleman who sent me this suggestion...

Charles Of <>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 22:59:08 (ZULU) 


I know that you chomp at the bit to don the "field gray of the battle force" but you best serve the nation by continuing to produce some of the best barrels in existence.  Just my 2 cents.

To my European rosterfarians, I have calmed down and am now in cold focus of the task ahead.  I regret my Trident remark earlier in the week and pray that your concerns are eased by the measured and calculated restraint shown by my President.

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 23:19:08 (ZULU) 

An earlier post needs to be clarified.  As the general population goes I'm better than a fair shot, but am pretty average in this company.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 23:27:13 (ZULU) 

So where is Marco tonight, the Amsterdam brothels must have turned him out by now? Hey Marco, you still going state side soon, or are you coming to the fatherland to shoot some pigs with me? we'll go to Jockland when they get rid of the Foot and Mouth,

or have you been extended for the duration plus 6 months? Pete.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 01:09:25 (ZULU) 

Guys I have to echo what Pete L said.We are with you on this althuogh there are bound to be some dungbeetles who disagree.My prime minister is a spineless little rodent and not to be trusted.He had better back you guys with everything.

God bless.



Gavan Willis <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 02:19:32 (ZULU) 

Brits support helping "sort things out" by 75%.

You talk funny, but you're all right.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:00:10 (ZULU) 

GW, now with a name like that you gotta be of Welsh origin, Do you know of a firm called Serco? they do a lot for your military medical services and range maint' and Adelade busses, I wanted to get down your way to hunt with my cousin Kenny, but he left for a better place before we had the chance, cancer, he did a couple of tours of Vietnam with the Aussie SAS, regards Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:04:18 (ZULU) 


A brief comment regarding your views of how our government has picked it's friends. (Bin Liner, Iran, Iraq...)  There was good reason for those decisions then, good reason that it's happening at this moment, and good reason it will happen in the future.

THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND. but I don't necessarily trust him.

These are relationships of convenience for a common purpose, and nobody settles all differences before entering into them.  All the nations of the world that are pledging us their support at this time are not suddenly revealing the love of America they've always held but failed to show.  The nations we ask to cooperate with us will not all be our allies when this is done, and we shouldn't feel betrayed when it becomes obvious.  If Pakistan helps us crush the entire network that includes Bin Liner and his robots, wonderfull.  And when it's done, we'll likely be back to our strained relationship with them, or worse, as we will need them less.  Hopefully we'll be grateful enough to reward them handsomely enough that their people actually come to realize America is not evil, and can in fact be a great friend.


Dale Malony

Dale Malony <>
Powell, Ohio, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:10:32 (ZULU) 

CDC, where did you get the figure of 75% from, I say we deport the other 25% to afganistan, and they can hug trees there, if there are any left to hug when we're done, Pete.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:23:00 (ZULU) 


Lt. Chris here and I have just returned home from New York helping the thousands of other brave men and women.  I am happy to be home, I am happy my fellow officers are ok, I am however not happy that we couldn't find a single survivor.  We did find, as I'm sure you have heard find a few firemen who were lost earlier on in the day.  I'm sure most of you would care to hear what it is I walked into about 72 hours ago.  I did my best to prepare myself and the rest of the boys and we felt ready but upon approaching the seen and the NYPD letting us past the barricades almost all of us said "holy shit" or "jesus christ".  Nothing prepared us for this, not TV, not media, not our worst nightmares.  I wish what we saw on no one, a disgrace and utter heartbreak, looking much like WWII Europe on the history channel.  One of the boys didn't even make to the rubble when he began crying.  Almost of all of us cried maybe not right away but eventually, including myself.  It was when with the help of the fire depo of michigan and the FDNY we were able to move a steel beam and under it was a severed arm.  We removed the beam and I decided to take a rest as it seemed I needed one, I sat down on the curb by myself as it was slightly beginning to rain and I began to cry like a baby. I cried so hard I began shaking with anger and sadness.  I lifted my head to see Anthony a FDNY member and he sat next to me put his arm around me and said "don't be ashamed, everyone here has cried, how can anyone not"?  It was at the moment I felt part of something bigger than a police force, I was part of the greatest nation on earth working with the greatest men and women.  I was proud, and sucked the tears back up and went back to work.  Earlier on today our replacements came from philly and we headed home.  When I got home I hugged my mother, father, brother, and girlfriend as if I just came home from 10 years of war.  Of course we all get very upset to watch these pictures on TV but it is nothing compared to being there.  I'm sorry I'm typing so much here but I feel I have so much to say, and I'm sorry if this sounds at all childish but these are my feelings as I have witnessed.  I hope in typing this you feel proud to t itn American, and you will have the utmost faith in your leaders in the decisions they make.  Tonight it will be rough to sleep after the horrible images in my mind but know this, we have the bravest and most honorable men and women on our side than we could ever hope for, and if we go to war we will be wrapped in the most secure blanket of safety colored in red, white, and blue.

Bless you all, to the victims and their loved ones.

Bless our country.


Lt. Chris

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 04:52:18 (ZULU) 

hey guys,

 I need your help. I went down to my favorite gun shop to buy some more bullets and they were all out. No sierra 168's to be found, so being the good guys they are they gave me some 147 fmj bt bullets to hold me over till they can get my bullets in. The proplem I have is none of my reloading books have 147's in them.I use accurate 2520 for my reloading at this time. Can anyboby tell me how to load these bullets......PLEASE........

Well the good news is went down and signed up for the guard today, will find out more about it this week sometime.


Michael Odom <>
Salem, Or, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 05:35:38 (ZULU) 

Peter L,

Let's see.  Great Britain has Maximum Gun Control.  Islamic Extreme Bad Dudes. Tony Clinton er... Tony Blair, et. al.   Gee.  I'm not thinking the Brits are next but watch your backsides anyway.


Can you gentlemen point me in the right direction for the construction of a G-suit.  I'll check the archives on my next day off when I'll have plenty of time to read.

Pat H.

Give me Liberty or Give me Death.

Pat Henry <>
MD, US of America - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 05:48:48 (ZULU) 

Good idea.

"My favorite suggestion came from one reader who said we should rebuild the Towers with the names Freedom and Unity, and let the terrorists figure out what the initials stand for."

Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online

jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 06:22:19 (ZULU) 


Just saw an interview with Tony Blair on CNN. Any of you guys get to see it bear in mind this is the assehole who authorised the release of several hundred CONVICTED TERRORISTS under the terms of the "Goodfriday" agreement. I'm a Britt, and this guy makes we want to puke!

Jonno <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 09:34:08 (ZULU) 

Dale:  I think it was Palmerson who said,  "Britain doesn't have friends, it has interests."  Your "...relationships of convenience for a common purpose.." is even better.  Your comments about Pakistan make a good point.  They see themselves as holding certain interests in common with China that we don't share.  And let's not forget that the Chinese characters for 'crises' and 'opportunity' are the same.  China can be expected to keep its eye on the ball and that ball is Taiwan.

That was an excellent post.  Keep them coming.

Peter:  The 75% figure was from a link in Drudge.  It was somebody fairly reputable like Reuters, but being a statistician, I realize that any such number is highly suspect.

Lt Chris:  You have my deepest apreciation and sincere respect.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 13:56:31 (ZULU) 


>"I'm old, fat, bald, and damned near intolerable handsome."<

... Lair, lair, pants on fire... you're dog ugly too ;)



...isn't that what Farakand said about the million (err...150,000) man black march???


What Bill0294 said... if it get's bad, we're gonna need all the barrel makers we have... Schumer, Feinstein, & Co. put many of them out of businesss... you make them, let others shoot them.


Dale Malony...

>"THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND. but I don't necessarily trust him."<...

... doesn't apply here.  Because this has been a situation of "My enemy, and my other enemy are both POS's, and I need to whack them both"... but we were stupid, because we chose one evil to help with another evil... and no matter what your religion is, you don't bed with one "Devil" to fight another devil.  Our government has a long history of giving these decisions to political hacks, instead of the people that have been studying international stuff all their lives.


Michael Odom...

Your dealer didn't do you any favor by giving you those POS 147's... they are crap machine gun bullets.  If you need 168's, get them through the mail... Go to:


... and about 50 other mail order dealers that have them in stock, and a lot cheaper than the local guy... good load is 44gr Varget, oal 2.825"... work your way up to 46, looking for the usual suspects.


And our last president (clinton) loosed a dozen terrorists on our society, convicted of bombing buildings "4 blocks" from the WTC, so his wifie could get the Puerto Rican vote in New York... where are all those supporting democratic voices now.


I spent Thursday down in New York, cleaning and patching guys eyes that had gotten corneal abrasions, and cement and grit in their eyes... these guys were beaten to a pulp, and wanted to go back with a patch on their eye... these guys are made of the same stuff we saw in WW2... you never saw such hard men with such soft hearts... damn good Americans.

A tiny, local radio station started a fund drive on Friday at 8AM, and by 8PM, had over $800,000... everyday people are starting to stand tall and prowd... I think the Tiger is waking!!


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 14:35:15 (ZULU) 

Regarding restraint, and preventing collateral damage: Why is it that we, as Americans, are held responsible for the workings of OUR government officials, and blamed as a people for the failings of a few, but, when speaking of others in countries of a more sanguine mentality, are we to use "restraint" and consider "collateral casualties"?  If we, as a people, are responsible for the actions of our leaders, are not the citizens of the country responsible for this heinous act not responsible for theirs?  Why the constant double standards?  If Almighty God felt it righteous to visit the sins of the fathers on the second and third generation, and to engineer the downfall of Israel and Judah for the transgressions of the leaders and priests, then are we better than He?  No.  If the citizens of any nation, whatever nation that may be, allow it's leaders to be of a mind to kill, maim and destroy innocent people, then they are just as complicit as those who lived next to Dachau and Auschwitz.  Identify, aim, fire.  Anyone who steps in the way, too bad.

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 15:22:03 (ZULU) 

Charles S. Hunt...

Well said, my man!


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 16:25:29 (ZULU) 

Question to all:

I am working my way through a jug of IMR 4895, pulled down powder.

I loaded some trial rounds in .308, using 150 gr. FMJBT for testing and initial zero, and 175 gr. MatchKings for grouping(or so I thought).

For the 150 gr. bullet (also military pulldown) I used 42.0 grains. For the 175 gr. I used 41.0 grains.  Both loads used Federal Match primers.

With the light bullets, I just ran the cases through the sizer, wiped them down, hit them with the powder measure, and seated a bullet.  No special prep, no extra care.  I even had mixed cases!!  Crimped the crap out of them with a Lee factory crimp die.

The 175 gr. bullets received the full monte--neck turned, cases weighed, primer pockets uniformed and cleaned, bullets weighed, charged hand trickled.  Bullets seated in two steps, no crimp.  OAL measured exactly.  Fired from clean barrel, 1 round every 5 minutes, wet patch with Hoppes and dry after every round for two, three round groups.

The rifle used is an M1A Nat'l Match, with a Kahles 3-12x56 mounted.

So, what's the rub here?

The Match Kings patterned like a shotgun!!!!  3 inch groups, at 100 yards!!

The 150 grain "plinkers"?

.340 to .509 inch groups at one hundred yards.

What gives?  Did I do something wrong--or is it that my rifle doesn't like the load?




Happiness is a 200 yard bughole.

Powderman <>
Enumclaw, Washington, United States - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:04:54 (ZULU) 

An anti-American company in Florida bans US flags in the workplace and fires employees who are absent to give blood!  This company also advertises their services FOR PROFIT to victims of this tragedy!

Click my name for the story.

Hank <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:44:43 (ZULU) 

 Along the lines of Mr. Hunt's post.....If it is indeed true that "all that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing", then it is for the "Good Men" of this nation to seek out and destroy that same evil.....lest we be as guilty as those who have done nothing in the past both here and abroad .....and let the "Good Men" of those countries rise up as a terrible scourge along side us against those among them who have comitted this terrible evil.....or suffer the fate of the evil they abide.....For He is indeed "trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored"....We have abided evil far too long, and now it comes to consume us....

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:56:08 (ZULU) 


    I'm looking for some advice on powder measuring.  I currently am loading 308's using once fired Federal match brass, Fed Match Large Rifle primers, Sierra 168 BTHP Matchkings over 41.1 gr of IMR 4064. each powder load is measured by hand and when i do all this right my rifle will shoot into less than 1/2 inch at 100 yrds.  the problem is that measuring by hand takes forever.  Does anyone know of a pwder measure and powder combination that will work as well and save me what little time I have.  I have an RCBS Uniflow powder measure but IMR 4064 isn't the kind that would work well in it.  Any help would be appreciated.


John Murphy <X191145@AOL.COM>
Milford, NH, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:59:06 (ZULU) 


As suspected, the Senate has given Pres. Bush all authority to find terrorist's responsible for the NYTC, and Pentagon Disasters.

And to bring them to justice.


As also expected( The Emperor has no clothes), they WOULD not give HIM the power to do WHATEVER it takes from here forward.......

So, in essence, it's "Business as usual".

And the "Cuff's", are on again.............

Are our Politico's going to EVER learn??.....

Is it going to take a Soviet suitcase in mid Manhattan??

( GOD help us).

I am not happy with this(expected event), BUT,

The ONE thing I am extemely grateful for is that these atrocities did not happen Sept '2000............

Shaking my head.........expecting, and hoping for more.....)):

ALL who have gone into the sincere thanks, and gratitude........

Dos Zap

Dos Zapatos <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 19:16:53 (ZULU) 

Guys, I have been discussing events with a few Germans today, they feel helpless against terrorism in their own country, they have been kept on such a short leash since WW2 that the general opinion is that they don't have the experience , militairily to  hold with the rest of us, but I get the impression that they had the balls to try.

The general sensus of opinion was that the only way to protect a country against Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism, is simply to deport all members of associated religions or race/faith, they would rather deport 50000 inocent people than give oine terrorist a chance to strike, hate to admit it, but, well their is some thing to their arguament..

any one speak Germa?, this is a saying I heard today..

Durch-Laden. Ein-laden. Bin-Laden. Nach-Laden.!!

translated it reads:

Load. Invite. Bin Laden. Re-load.   sounds good to me.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 19:35:00 (ZULU) 

Sorry, guys.  I went from not posting to not shutting up.

Back to lurk mode.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 19:45:22 (ZULU) 

Charles the American people arent really held responsible for the actions of your govt,the only culpability, as in this country and most others is letting them get away with the bad stuff.point well made.

powderman, hahahahahaha that shit just happens and finding out why is most of the fun.



Gavan Willis <>
all gave some, SOME GAVE ALL, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:10:18 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:10:42 (ZULU) 

Bill R,

 Great hearing from you.................glad to know your still "close", now, if ONE other could show his ugly mug......YOU know WHO you are.........((:

Sorry, missing your calls, and lost your #.

Dos Zap

Two Shoes <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:20:04 (ZULU) 

Evening Americans and other honourable brothers in arms from around the world,

Before i go back to guns and long range talk, i would like to give my 2 cents to this "question" by fellow rosterfarian Charles S Hunt;

"Why is it that we.....are we to use "restraint" and consider "collateral casualties"?

YES, double YES, "we" should use restraint and consider collateral casualties, for isn't THAT what makes us different from them??

Is it not this that makes us the GOOD guys and them the BAD guys?

I believe strongly we should go full force into this new WAR, use what ever force necesary, but direct all this force only to all those responsible for this coward act, and even go beyond that and start a all-out global WAR on all terrorist organisations around the world, so let us around the world unite and destroy/ eradicate these  organisations like the Real IRA, the ETA, the Hamas and every one of them who kill innocent civilians, but let us NOT just start blasting away at any and everything, for it will only make us the same as osama bin laden, both fighting for a cause, both not caring about who and how many dies....

"Anyone who steps in the way, to bad"...probably the same words used by the BAD guys when they conceived this plan.

Let us keep our humanity, but show our full wrath and vengenace upon our advisary's.


Your remarks were a logic reaction to a horrific act of cowards, now that we all have tempered our anger you are wright, we must focus on the task ahead, for it will be a long exausting fight, but we and especially you Americans will winn it in the end.

LT Chris;

Your efforts and those of the many other fire-man and police-officers are well noticed and apreciated, not only in the USA but all over the world, my hat is off to you Sir.


you're wright on the money, it probably is only a matter of time before a target is hit in Europe, the Eifeltower and the EuroTunnel have been discovered on many terrorist wishing-lists, so the papers tell us overhere.


the fact that your rifle grouped lousy with the Matchkings might have to do with the twist of your rifle, if it is a 1-12 inch twist than you should not use bullets heavier than 168 grain, or so i am told...

(not sure though because my own rifles also have 1-12 inch twists and they both shoot great even with 185 grain bullets, but again, this is what i have been told and it might be the case with your stick)


I can reccomend the Powder Master Electronic Powder Dispenser (order number 98997) from RCBS highly in conjunction with an electronic scale, works fast and very accurate, seen twice a demonstration and i am going to acuire one myself, but must confess i am still a firm believer that you can't beat the accuracy of a trickler filled cartridge.

Old Bambi and Miss Piggy hunting Peter Lincoln;

Evening ol'chap, i was busy last night, not in the red light district (me wish) but with prepping 200 Lapua cases, for i have a 3,4 and 500 meter competition next saturday.

Duration plus 6 wish again! "Unfortenately" within 2 weeks i will be civilian again due to the new police career, but no way in the world my platoon is going to be send anywhere without me, so i have already arranged it with the powers that be that if it might be the case that dutch troops will be send anywhere i can come back to my "old" job as platoon sarge.

About the US trip, unless WWIII brakes out i do not see why i would have to prospone my trip, so yes, i am still going Stateside, only thing i am not sure about is if i can get my Winnie along with me, with the tightened airport security and all, they are even banning mobile phones and camera's so i guess a .308 stick is totally out of the question...??

When and where will you be hunting miss piggy's? If there is a slot i am in.

Enough wooden shoe mumbo jumbo,


Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.  Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.  And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.  And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!"

guess terrorists will get the point...

Marco <>
Pride, Honour,Strong,, only one name comes to mind;, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:46:11 (ZULU) 

Of all the places I've looked on the net, this seems to be one of the most coherent and informed, especially about the military aspects of the future.

With that in mind, I'm turning to you guys for answers to my questions...

The Talian has claimed may times that it has revoked bin Laden's communications tools, including faxes, phones, sat phones, etc. If that's the case, how did the NSA intercept two congratulatory phone calls to bin Laden?

I've done quite a bit of homework in the last few days, including some reading up on Afghanistan. I've read that it is the most landmined country in the world and 200 people a day are injured by mines. Do we really want to put our soldiers into that kind of environment? Seems to me like a land invasion is a bad idea.

I've also read that the Talian are a bunch of ruthless thugs who consider 'justice' gunning someone down in the streets. As such, I wouldn't think the Talian are in good standing with their people. Wouldn't it be wrong to start carpet bombing the whole country and killing people who aren't even sympathetic to the Taliban?

What about the option of backing the Northern Alliance? (read: the enemy of our enemy is our friend)

And I couldn't agree more with 'lito's statement that "we need trained terrorist squads". When are we going to stop trying to fight gurilla warfare with big armies? Personally, I think we should just drop in all our SEALs and other special forces and let them snipe all day long.

God bless america.


James Pennywise <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:03:05 (ZULU) 

Saudi Arabia and India have told Powell they will support US military actions from their countries.  If you don't think that's a big deal, you've never been stuck in the back of a helicopter (older than anyone riding it) over water, at night, in shitty weather, getting an aerial re-fuel, wondering where the pilot and co-pilot finished in their helicopter flight school class.

I agree that our allies aren't necessarily our friends.  But a lot of our friends have ante'd up.

Chris, you stand in the ranks of the thin blue line that protects us all.  You've seen the results of the hand of evil.  We'll need you and will stand by you guys.  Have you noticed how people look at cops and firefighters differently this week?

Gents, to get a head-start on training guys to shoot, get with the High Power Rifle Team associated with your state associations (like North Carolina Rifle and Pistol Association and Virginia Sport Shooting Association).  You can find your state POCs on the web-site.  These are the same civilians who shoot -- side-by-side -- with and against the military teams in competitions across the country.

Collateral damage?  Sherman was right -- "War is all hell."  You think Americans are concerned about minimal casualty numbers today?  I think the twin towers have vaccinated us against that now.

Murph, for 4064 throw your charge from a good powder measure.  Throw that into the measuring pan on a good beam scale.  Hand trickle the remainder.  Put it back in the case.  Shoot it.

Sinister Dave <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:15:00 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:21:10 (ZULU) 

Murph, I basicly do the same as you do now. Finding a powder measure to throw that type of powder as accurate as doing it one at a time is going to be near impossible. Maybe ball powder but not stick stuff. If doing it all at once is too much you can split it up like I do sometimes. First session is decap/necksize, case prep, and prime. Next session is powder and bullet seating. It splits up what can be a long time and seems to feel better for me. Personally I wouldn't trust anything to throw the exact weight each time. I weigh each load of powder myself. It's part of the fun. ;)

Rob01 <>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:24:24 (ZULU) 

As usual- great advice being passed on what each of us can do- I am focusing on preparing family to handle changes possible to avoid disorientation. Will focus on not depending on services to be provided for them.

 Anyone else getting IM's from a   des909017  keeps asking for reaction to the attacks but refuses to identify him/herself...

George has my Stealth ready! Training aid for myself and my sons(that is what I sold my wife on anyway!LOL). She learned to use the AR today and I probably lost that one too! :(

   Take care.

Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:06:11 (ZULU) 

Looks like Lieutenant General (3-stars) Maude, the Deputy Chief of Staff for Army Personnel (and his Special Forces Captain Aide) is the highest-ranking Pentagon casualty.

I think back in 1986 or 1987, National Geographic Explorer followed a Russian Spetsnaz Company for a few months in Afghanistan.  Very interesting film (anyone have any connections with NBC or National Geographic to see if we can get copies, or have it played on the air?).

I swear if you changed the AK-74s for M16s, and the Hinds for Hueys it looked like Ivan's Vietnam.

The difference between the colonial Brits and Russkis and us is we don't want to stay.  Crush the roaches and find the next batch, and exterminate them as well.

It doesn't mean much to say "Bomb Afghanistan into the Stone Age."  Ivan did that.  Lots of refugees headed out now to get out of the way.

Sinister Dave <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:24:55 (ZULU) 

LT Chris,

Thanks to you and all like you who gave your time and hearts to help. Dealing up close and personal with burned, dismembered and decomposing fellow countrymen leaves a mark. Did it for a year in a hospital a long, long time ago, and I remember it like it was yesterday.

You have the respect and profound appreciation of all of us, as do all firemen, policemen, EMT’s, and volunteers from all walks who are involved.

For those of you who want to read of yet another American Hero, one whom I had the honor and privilege to know, go to the following address:

Click on:

 Read Beth Quinn's column  at the end of the blurb to read the whole thing.

Remember this woman. She was tough as shoeleather, competent, cheerful, and just a joy to be around and work with. She represents all that is good in this country. We are all diminished by her loss, and enriched by having her as part of this country.

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:57:46 (ZULU) 

Sinister Dave,

I agree with you when you say,, "We don't want to stay"..

"UN"fortunatly, that hasn't been the case in several of our latest invasions, and some of our old ones.  We go in and end up staying there and paying for the a**holes for years. How long will we sit in Korea, Kosovo, Macidonia and others.  We'd still be in Panama if it weren't for the treaty signed so long ago (Forgot when it was signed..)

I'd like to see massive force and violence dropped down upon our enemies, where ever they may be..... but don't want our guys on 6 month rotations in the GD sand and mountains of the near east. We are stretched too thin as it is. Someting has to give, and it souldn't be us.  I think we should bring our troops home and train for upcoming battles... As hard as they may be.

Peace making is sooooooo much easier than peace keeping.

As always,,, standing behind our troops and in it for the long haul.... God bless all who have worked so hard to salvage the American way of life.


Chris <>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, Land of Gold and Honey - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:59:51 (ZULU) 

I've posted many of the images from the past week in our forum if you would like to see them. There are too many to post here and tie up the forum.

Look under the "Images" threads, there are 3 threads right now with about 10 pics per thread.

The images definately say what words cannot.

Click thew blue link.

spectr17 <>
Redands, California, US of A - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 01:00:52 (ZULU) 

  Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.  I'm currently preparing to go to the New England Police Sniper Symposium and hope to get there before I deploy.  Hope to meet some of you there.


John Murphy <>
Milford, NH, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 01:02:29 (ZULU) 


Interesting read, that is applicable to the topic/s we have been discussing.

A MUST read for you mil guy's.......for your six.

Article:"Is America's Military Ready for War?".

Interview with Ret. Col David Hackworth, and Geo Metcalf.

Dos Zap

Terry <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 02:45:09 (ZULU) 

I thought you men might like to send some love letters to a guy who has openly praised the attacks on another internet discussion group. His name is Hakan Okur and he said "You are paying for the awful things you did to the American indians and any other peoples of the world in history and you are no more in safety in your stolen continent." Then he spouted something about it being justice delivered from God. His e-mail address is

This came from a listserve discussion board for breath hold freedive spearfishing so I guess he's a diver like me but I don't know where he lives or where he's from.

Marc Soulie <>
Thank God, Gore lost, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 02:49:01 (ZULU) 

SAVAGE--  That's right, I said "Savage" on the roster;)

Anyone put a M3 LR on top of a 10 FP in .308?  What base and rings did you use?  I am leaning toward Leupold bases, not sure which yet, and Badger rings.

I am used to just shooting what they issue me, so I am a little hesitant at spending money on something that might not work real well.

Good hunting to those who will use a Unertl on an M40, a Leupold on an M24, or good old iron sights, to "visualize world peace."

All are invited to check out the association.  Click my name or go to

Mark <>
Ohio, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 03:06:23 (ZULU) 

Dave wrote:  "Have you noticed how people look at cops and firefighters differently this week?"

Dave, we're ALL looking at each other differently this week.  It's hard to be rude to someone who would run into a burning building for you.  I cried at the words of Charles Schumer and Hillary Clinton!!  Until Tuesday I wouldn't even drink "New York Seltzer" and now I have a photo of Manhattan on my desk top.  Everyone is so elaborately polite it just warms the heart.

But all are firmly resolved to rap some knuckles.

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 04:01:03 (ZULU)

The US Marines Green Seals??  LOL!!!


CR:  To throw fuel on that "11" fire of yours, go read Psalms 11.


From what I'm gathering, carpet bombing, cruise missles, etc., will be pretty ineffective in Afganistan given their population dispursement over a rural area, with the cities still being shelled out from Russia.  Most of the populace seems to be indifferent to who's in power, they're miserable now, have been, and aren't seeing any signs of improvement.  Killing all of these troden won't help, but we do need to go in and cut out the cancerous cells of terrorists there.  Looks like this'll be a ground-war to get the Taliban out of power, and to destroy all of the training camps.

With that as a possible scenario, what is the operational considerations for sniper teams in this environment?   Does anyone have good refernces to Russia's experiences?  That country has some deserts, and lots of mountains.  What are those terrains like?  Are the deserts rocky, or sandy?  Are the mountains barren, or are they covered in light scrub-brush?  Is this going to be similar to our mountainous Western states?

Just trying to get a feel on what our military will be getting into soon.......


Leslie <>
TN-VA, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 04:34:35 (ZULU) 

I mostly just lurk in the shadows but I have been a constant reader for about a month now and I have read many of the archives and articles.  I am an ARMY ROTC cadet and I graduate in a year.  I plan to branch Infantry.  All my life I have wanted to be in the Infantry and people are always asking me "Why do you want to kill people?"  I respond with "I hope I never have to kill anyone.  But I understand that my country, family, or friends may need protected."  I hope this country does not enter into an extended conflict but if it does I plan on being at the front doing what I can to keep everyone with me alive.  I hope God protects all those who may be asked to defend our nation and and those who seek retribution for the acts of terrorism committed on our country.

Now comes the question.  I am part of the RECONDO company at Kansas State University, it is a highspeed (compared to the rest of ROTC) activity that works towards developing confident competent leadership in the ROTC program.  In the program we teach squad tactics beyond the level taught in the class room.  We usually do a class on sniping and the use of snipers as a force multiplier.  Can anyone point me in the right direction to find manuals or written experience on the offensive and defensive use and deployment of snipers?  I am also looking for a short definition of a wartime sniper, in other words fill in the blank "A sniper is _________."  Also is anyone in Ks willing to teach a deer hunter (we have to wear blaze orange here and anymore you only need to step out of the car and wait 5 seconds before you see a deer, not real hunting but it is food) how to do some real (tactical/sniper) shooting.



Andrew Kennedy <>
Manhattan, Ks, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 05:00:41 (ZULU) 

Guys I heard on the news at lunch time that osama bin of shit has exfilled the village he had been camped in and is now in a "secret location" with his four wives,kids and feral followers.The hunt is on.

I also heard that dubya and other politicians are wondering wether to abandon the no asassination They asassinated randy weavers kids, why get all touchy feely about a bunch of feral scum who murdered thousands of civilians?

Wake up Mr Pres,stop f#*#*ing around and get into it.

Wild Bill damn good to see you back.

Wouldnt it be somethin to put a team together from this board.The mind boggles.

Pete L I cant recall hearing of that company, the adi contract out a heap of work these days,good job gets done but it has potential tactical ramifications that worry me.If you ever get down this way look me up.

Just heard the Taliban are preparing for a holy war with the U.S and Pakistan if Pakistan sides with the U.S.Peasants,dangerous peasants.



Gavan Willis <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 08:39:52 (ZULU) 

"But all are firmly resolved to rap some knuckles"- cdc

Just keep watching that edumacational tee-vee of yours bud! ;-)

  Off to another fun day with little round mirrors, and Jersey walls too!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, U - S - A!!!!!!!!!!!!- - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 08:53:31 (ZULU) 

Gavan Willis wrote:

____"I also heard that dubya and other politicians are wondering wether to abandon the no asassination"

The President can rescend that executive order in five seconds.

____"Wake up Mr Pres,stop f#*#*ing around and get into it."

Old fighter pilots can be trusted play heads-up.

We'll do fine.

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 11:54:28 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 13:29:07 (ZULU) 

Bill, we are sure to revisit the issue you raise when these people are dead.  Let's keep our eye on the ball.

Leslie:  I read that they are part of "The Special Services Group."  Special Services are tasked with entertaining the troops, aren't they?  Marine Green Seals who sing and dance.  What a country.

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 14:06:33 (ZULU) 

LT. CHRIS:  Thanks, my Brother.  Proud as hell of you.

PAT HENRY:  Damn son, what a handle !!!  Great name.

My Mom (4'11", auburn hair, full blood Irish) used to tell me during my wild ass teenage years "Son, I'll fight with you but I'll also fight for you".  Meaning, she would whip my ass if I needed it but she would also be the first one to my side if someone crossed me.  I'm a newbie here but it seems DR is kinda like that.  We may argue and infight some but in the end we're all on the same side.

My partner (SNIPER, SWAT cop, Homicide Dick) said this morning they should just turn us Coonasses (Cajuns) loose in Afghanistan and tell us it's illegal to shoot 'em. We'd have 'em cleaned out in a couple of days. "Hold my beer, I'll shoot this un from the truck" Hee Hee !

Great to see a President with a nutsack.

Hope all you DR boys are well.


brian k. sain <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 14:16:14 (ZULU) 


Ken Hunter's Wife (aka "The Major"), is going in for surgery because of the horse thing... those of you that believe in prayers, please ad her to the list... those of you that don't believe... pray anyway, cuz I said so!!


Good article from David Hackworth... if you put all the pieces together, clinton set the stage for this.


You said Sav-xxx, and Leupold in the same post??? Badd.  You must use tapered bases for the M3-LR, and Leupold doesn't make them... try Baer bases (via Lightforce).  Badger might make a tapered base for the "you know what" rifle ;)


The thing about asassinating "enemy heads of state" in not a policy that the Pres an just decide to "change"... it is law (by Executive order, and backed up by a few others) in this country, and in order for him to send in the tunnel rats to take this garbage out, we have to have congress change the law... I think it will be a "Go". And I think it will STAY a go, after this is all over.

In the news...

"It is being widely reported that the Brazilian parliament has voted 234 for, 6 against to allow passengers on airplanes to carry firearms"... our Gov should be as smart.

'yote Bate...

Damn glad to see you back.  STAY BACK, you ol' booger ;)

>"The truth is.. our cowardly politicians of the time did this hoping to protect themselves. It worked for them! "<

You got it right... but it didn't work for America... A friend said that one of the reasons that we take the military so lightly in this country, is because we've never had a war on our own soil... well it's time to get back to basics.

You wanna have a real nightmare... Imagine that there were 700 less Republican votes in Flordia, and that "lyin' al gore" was in the White House now!



CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 15:25:13 (ZULU) 

Rumors and questions.

Rumors?  Heard at a match last weekend that Remy is contracting with S&W for making receivers.  Can anyone comment?  Is this S&W making receivers for Remy or Remy making stuff for S&W?

Has there been any research in ultra-light precision weapons?  A Titanium receiver, lw bolt, carbon-fiber wrapped bbl rifle would weigh considerably less for hauling around.  I know the drawbacks are increased felt recoil, etc. but face it, a SWS gets carried a hell of a lot more than fired.  Also, what about Ti for scope bases/rings?  Are there any properties of Ti that make it unsuitable for some of these purposes, ie brittleness, not taking color etc.?  I see Remy has a Ti 700 on the market now (not w/the carbon fiber bbl though).  Anyone have any hands-on with one?

RE Powder measures.  There's a behomoth called the Prometheus.  I've seen used and know D. Tubb has used.  It's not your everyday measure, as it has a scale (beam typ) employed to weigh each charge for you.  Not cheap though.  A little faster than hand weighing, probably only worth the cost if you're doing a sh^tload of ammo or make a helluva lot more $ than a GI...

175's in a 1:12. Sometimes.  Try 168s and keep it as a medium range gun if 175s won't produce.  When (if) you wear the bbl out (Could be a few thousand or more rounds, less if you screw it up cleaning it!) ge a 1:10 or 1:11 and try again.

Outta here,


Caison <>
De, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 15:34:00 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 16:56:02 (ZULU) 


Tubb has two of those.  the Canadian Palma team has a pair. :))

I have one.

They ain't fast.  A measure, beam scale, and trickler are faster but nowhere near as accurate.

They are accurate as hell, and yes, measuring to the nearest 1/100th grain does make one hellova a noticable difference if you are already a good shooter.

They are expensive.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:13:54 (ZULU) 

I have no idea what these Green Marine Seals are but in checking some overseas sites it appears the 82nd and 101st are in the Punjab region of Pakistan.  Sounds like a good Physop title though.  "Green Marine Seals"

Check out:

Also sent some emails to the FAA, i'm curious about the Sky Marshall program.  Seems like it could be an angle for some of the FOG's that can still shoot those 1911's.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:23:39 (ZULU) 


Will you post the "Sky Marshall" info when you get it?  I hope all is as well as can be with everyone.

Ken H.,

Best wishes and prayers for the Major.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
VA, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:32:08 (ZULU) 


Who else is dancing in the streets, besides the terrorsts, and their followers all over the world???


Gary Condit!



CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:54:42 (ZULU) 

Hi all,

Not to be critical or anything but a word of caution.  Due to the situation, I would think it would be wise to observe some communications security.  I've seen some posts regarding troop movement and placement.  Is this a wise thing to post on the net?

On and we have banned any posting of such information until this crisis is over.  Opinions?


BCR #226 <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:56:25 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:08:37 (ZULU) 


I doubt that there is anything we could divulge here that would be of value to the enemy.  However, I feel that observing OPSEC here would be in good form and I would support the idea.

It is hard to listen to the call "boots & saddles" and know that you're not on the team.

Good Hunting.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:28:21 (ZULU) 

Hog's - here is proof I can type

"Open to letter to the Prime Minister of Canada, the Right Honourable Jean Chretien.

Dear Sir,

I am writing this letter to capture the thoughts surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001.

I emplore you to commit the entire might of the Canadian Forces to American, NATO and worldwide efforts to seek out and destroy those responsible for the terrorist attacks that day and other who would do the same.

To do so will require ground troops - Infantry from Canada (PPCLI, RCR and R22eR) this is the only way to minimize damage to the civilian populace, and show our resolve in the face of adversity. While our Army is not fit to a high intensity conflict - we are equipped and trained for the sort of activities likely to be found in Terrorist host Nations - limited direct action (DA) raids - airborne and airmobile insertion to identify and destroy terrorist training camps - as well as peacekeeping/making in the host nation and humanitarian efforts to the host nation populace.

Those who point to the strain on our soldiers, should look into our past - the soldiers who forged our Nation in the First and Second World wars.  Members of the CF are paid to defend our country, and our allies - conscionable we can do no less.

Kevin Boland"

who is in EVIL KEV mode

Kevin - of the GWN <>
Canada - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:29:24 (ZULU) 

Mike:  The troop movement stuff so far has been pretty funny, but point well taken.  I won't comment on it.

All:  I talked to a VERY intelligent Russian today.  He says that the Russians can be expected to behave in thier own self interest and that doesn't include screwing us.  The Chinese are crafty bastards, but thier situation is similar.  India too.

That is a four way confluence of interests.  Sounds like a deal to me.

Pakistan is another matter.  That government is very shaky at very best.  They have nukes.  Isn't that charming?

I wonder what Sadaam did in all those CBR labs after Clinton slunk away from the inspection regieme.  We may be about to find out.

And my earlier number was wrong.  There are 1,200,000,000 (1.2 BILLION) Moslems.  I've read thier poets and theirs is a subtle and profound religion.  Let's treat them with respect.

"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of thier women."____Conan the Barbarian  (He stole that from Ghengis Khan.)

Ta ta...

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:29:30 (ZULU) 

Chiming in,

Now I know some of you guys think everything about everything is and can be found on the web.  That may or may not be true.  I nearly started a war of my own right here with that one as a FNG Rosterferian.

But ask yourself this question:  Do I want to be the one who gives up information that some psyco/Terrorist/Kid who hates his Dad (who may not know that info yet and wouldn't have known until YOU told him) can use that may eventually get one of my people killed ?

Didn't think so.

Bad guys surf the web.

Stay safe, Brian

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:38:08 (ZULU) 

Quote from Sgt. Dad, "That little roughneck (GWB) can go from southern gentleman, to redneck rampage in 2.5 seconds!

'Yote bate, welcome back. I was getting a headache going from here to "Long Range Hunting" and back, just to hear your words of wisdom ; )

Sinister, have you noticed firemen and cops are looking at themselves differently lately.

Refugees fleeing Afghanistan...taking tango's with them.

Marco, It looks like your "skills" may be used more frequently in LE than in the AF.

Catshooter, military lightly... Sgt. Dad agree's, but he didn't think it would happen this soon.

BriaN Sain, I always said all it would take to get the terrorists, smug drugglers etc. in the US, is to put their pictures on huntin' tags and charge $5.00 a piece for them.

CDC, we agree once again ; )

Before Tuesday I didn't want to travel to the east coast to check out the monuments, museums etc. because of how I percieved to people the last time I was there. I guess their like M&Ms hard on the outside, sweet on the inside ; )

American people held responsible for leaders:

We choose ours, most places the people have no choice as to who their leaders are or what they do.

4i's <>
origional, Indian Country, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:39:22 (ZULU) 

 I found a private range here in South Texas that I may join. Where I can shoot out to 500 yds. I was wondering if anyone has suggestions for a 223 load. Should I use the 69 or 75gr Boolits? I'm guessing 75 would be best.

 Also, can someone recommend a good book on sniping? Info on training, not an I was there heres how I did it type book.


Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:40:42 (ZULU) 

I see your points on the commo security.   Everything posted so far is public knowledge coming from web sites.   Take it for what it's worth.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:44:48 (ZULU) 

Has anyone had any experience with the Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x40 Mil Dot scope? Mils are accurate at 12x.

Eugene Harris <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 19:05:22 (ZULU) 


Food for thought, intercepted from west coast:

Prof. Frederick lung

Visiting Professor of Law

University of California

Hastings College of the Law

Dear Friends, The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary.  Tamim is an Afghani-American writer.  He is also one of the most brilliant people I know in this life. When he writes, I read.  When he talks, I listen.  Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.

Gary T.

Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:

l’ve been hearing a lot of talk about “bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.”  Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but ‘we’re at war, we have to accept collateral damage.  What else can we do” Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we “have the belly to do what must be done.”

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I’ve lived here for 35 years l’ve never lost track of what’s going on there.  So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I’m standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.  There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan.  They’re not even the government of Afghanistan.  The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997, Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan.  When you think Taliban, think Nazis.  When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler.  And when you think “the people of Afghanistan’ think ‘the Jews in the concentration camps.”  It’s not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.  They were the first victims of the perpetrators.  They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don’t the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban?  The answer is, they’re starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.  A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan—a country with no economy, no food.  There are millions of widows.  And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves.  The soil is littered with land mines, the

farms were all destroyed by the Soviets.  These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.  Trouble is, that’s been done.  The Soviets took care of it already.  Make the Afghans suffer? They’re already suffering.  Level their houses?  Done.  Turn their schools into piles of rubble?  Done.  Eradicate their hospitals?  Done.  Destroy their infrastructure?  Cut them off from medicine and health care?  Too late.  Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs.  Would they at least get the Taliban?  Not likely.  In today’s Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around.  They’d slip away and hide.  Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don’t move too fast, they don’t even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn’t really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing.  Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban–by raping once again the people they’ve been raping all this time

So what else is there?  What can be done, then?  Let me now speak with true fear and trembling.  The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops.  When people speak of “having the belly to do what needs to be done’ they’re thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed.  Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people.  Let’s pull our heads out of the sand.  What’s actually on the table is Americans dying.  And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden’s hideout.  It’s much bigger than that folks.  Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we’d have to go through Pakistan.  Would they let us?  Not likely.  The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first.  Will other Muslim nations just stand by?  You see where I’m going.  We’re flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that’s Bin Laden’s program.  That’s exactly what he wants.  That’s why he did this.  Read his speeches and statements.  It’s all right there.  He really believes Islam would beat the west.  It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he’s got a billion soldiers.  If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that’s a billion people with nothing left to lose, that’s even better from Bin Laden’s point of view.  He’s probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.  Who has the belly for that?  Bin Laden does.  Does anyone else?


How many of the 1 plus mill Islamic followers are going to side with the extremists (Bin & Taliban) if we go after them & the immediate followers?  Perhaps the scores of true Islam believers will be civil ??


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
Kenosha, WI, US of A - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 19:31:32 (ZULU) 

Mike in Texas,

Knew they were slow, expensive and accurate, but didn't know they were THAT accurate.  Talked w/Tubb in Raton a couple years ago about them.  Too rich for my blood- at least until I can't think of any other toys I want first.

Where in Tx?  I used to be in NM, shot all over eastern NM and a couple in Tx.

caison <>
De, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 19:51:55 (ZULU) 

 I don't know if you all would be interested, or if its been posted before, but I found an interesting book called, "On Killing" by LTC Dave Grossman. It deals with "The psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society".  Author makes some interesting points as well as tells of some non-politically correct late 50's psycological experiments.

Also, what do you all think the max effective range would be for the 223 on thin skinned bi-ped targets?

Shot out,

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 20:03:16 (ZULU) 


Ref. titanium rifles,

i saw one when i was at Menke, a german rifle builder, besides the barrel and the stock the rest was totally made out of titanium, and it was indeed very light, but Menke told me it was a pain in the ass to work on Ti, thus making it more expensive because of the more man hours he had to put in such a rifle, was the reason why he only had built one sofar, guess the costs and the fact it probably kicks like a mule is the reason why there are not so many around.

Peter L;

Interested in the new Leatherman Wave tool? Can get them for you for just 170 DM, about 160 Dm cheaper than in any shops...

Steve D;

ref. books,

Ultimate sniper by Major Plaster comes to mind, the military and police sniper by mike r lau and i also like sniper I and II by Mark V Lonsdale which came reccomended by Andy's Dad.

All hear about the fact that Osama bin laden was trading shares from insurance companys wright before the terrorist attack??

Talk about trading with insight...

If that not makes him guilty as hell than what will...

Deputy Doug;

Hear Hear!

Besides the Pakistan remark (they are on US "side" as we now know) this fella is wright on the money.

Gonna be on national tv tomorrow, walking in front of the dutch Queens carriage with my unit, gonna be a sober event in respect to the US victims, no ceremonial uniforms, no marches, no bands, just the Queen and 100 of us red berets. (yearly event, kinda like the British opening of parliament)

cya around,


Marco <>
NL - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 20:07:51 (ZULU) 

DEPUTY DOUG:  I spoke with Dr. Martin Fackler and numerous others on your question concerning overpenetration with MK 168s and 175s. I got a multi-faceted answer (which I expected).  The bones in the side of the head are thinner and a through and through shot here would naturally offer less resistance than a frontal shot where the bone is thicker.  How far that bullet travels after a solid hit is up for debate.  Unfortunately, not many hostage takers will allow one to put a chronograph behind his head while you take your test shot.  It is extremely difficult to replicate real live shots on human beings in a controlled environment for obvious reasons.  Common sense stuff.

I sent out a blanket question on another site. Not many PDs are using the 175. They didn't cite reasons but I believe it is simply because the 168 works at typical LE distances and if it ain't broke . . . Also for years, it was the only match loading available in a factory round.  Further, not many police snipers even know of the 175.  Most cops aren't gun nuts. They don't collect guns or think of guns as things of beauty. 99% do not have a competitive shooting background.  They use what they are issued and learn along the way.  If there is no one to teach them of a 175, how would they know? Besides, knowing the ballistic coefficient of a 168 vs 175, "rotational this" or "transsonic that" really has no bearing at 100-300 yards.  Before everybody starts screaming FOUL, I concede, someone calling himself a professional Sniper needs to know all he can of his craft.  But, Policemen don't have/aren't given the time and money to train like they should.  Every Police Sniper I know bitches because he doesn't get to shoot and train enough.  But, they don't neccessarily HAVE to know a lot of those things to do what is expected of them at normal POLICE distances. For example: A carpenter uses a hammer.  He may not collect hammers or know the force required to strike with it or who makes fifty different kinds of grips for the thing. But tell him to drive a nail and he does it. Am I making sense ?  I once asked Gunny Hathcock "What is the best rifle" He told me "Son, I don't build 'em I just shoot 'em. Get someone who knows what he's doin' to build you a good stick and practice, practice, practice". Made sense to me.

However, back to your question, everyone concedes that the 168 BTHP isn't the best thing for intermediate barriers.  So, maybe it is kinda broke.  Many rounds already fit the bill better than the .308 for a Sniping round.  We have the technology for newer better rounds for Sniping and Sniping itself has matured somewhat.  Several different limited penetration rounds are in the works.  None have been proven to any extent as far as I know.  There will have to be extensive testing and proven use of the things before LE will accept the liability of using ANYTHING these days. Because of the liability with such things, agencies are perfectly glad to let SOMEONE ELSE test it before they try to be a pioneer.  The .308 has been around forever.  Because of people like those on this list who have the time and money to experiment, we know a LOT about it.  That helps the cops / soldiers in the long run.  For now, I would suggest testing different rounds 168, 175, Fed Tact., TAP and whatever else you think might suit your needs.  Do your own testing and document same.  You may have to carry different rounds (color code 'em) for different mission requirements until the "Perfect Sniping" round is invented.  Who knows when that will be.  That's what the rest of us are doing anyway.

Several friends detailed shootings they were involved in when I posed your question.  To a man they used Fed 308M 168.  I got a different response for each question.  Some guys made shots on running suspects.  Some made shots on stationary suspects.  Head and body shots.  With and without hostages.  Through intermediate barriers and open air.  Some shots exited and did not travel much farther. Some went through glass, the bad guy's head, out the other side of a car and through two sides of a garage. Yada, Yada.  Some bullets stayed pretty much intact and others came apart.  The only clear thing gleaned is that one would probably be in danger of an overpenetration injury if you were behind the bad guy's head when the round exited. Duh. What a revelation. Again, common sense stuff.

I am currently working on an idea/project with a forensic anthropologist to provide an accurate test medium for such endeavors.  The coming world situation would provide an adequate test bed however, I don't think there would be much study time.

It has been said that a soldier trains and trains to someday fight

. . . A cop fights and fights to someday train.

I hope I was of some help.  I probably wasn't.  I'm just a dumb ole squirrel hunter any damn way.

Watch your six, Brian

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, I hoember 17, 2001, at 21:10:22 (ZULU) 

Eugene; that's a pretty fair scope! There are a lot worse around.

4I's; good to hear from you again my man! I just couldn't keep it down. A sniper just has so much tolerance for peace and quiet!

Doug' really, we will probably find ourselves in a war of liberation if we go in that hell hole.  Our objective (target) will be hard to find. Our point will be made however. They are probably already in flight. A man with 200 Million can get pretty scarce. So far we haven't found one bomber in an American Mountain range. To kill wasp you destroy their nest!  But you don't crawl into it with them.

Powder Measure's; I get about an accurate a throw out of that little Lyman adjustable. It out performed the RCBS in that respect for me. You have to set the sliders just right and it gets quite close but there's no good way to throw powder accurately and know it without weighing every charge.

500 yards is a good range for .223's. A lot of good work has been done by those who would stretch this excellent little cartridge farther but gee, I think it's best kept below 600. I had best luck with 69 gr. but it depends on the barrel twist.

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 21:21:32 (ZULU) 

"When I take action," he said, "I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt. It's going to be decisive."___G.W. Bush to New York Senators Schumer and Clinton

Talked to another real smart Russian fella.  Hell of a lot smarter than me, anyway.  He called his mother in Moscow on the 12th.  She said that all the people on her bus were sobbing.  These bastards are a bigger nuisence to Russia than they are to us and the Russkies would be delighted if we exterminated them.  He says that he absolutely does not see Russia scewing us on this one.

Pablo:  That's just what I heard about rescinding that stupid 'we don't assasinate leaders' rule.  I'd be prepared to bet you that President Bush wouldn't be too fussy about sticking to the niceties, at the moment.

Deputy Doug:  Your Professor Iung should be read very carefully by one and by all.  We have been handed a war that we didn't want.  I'm agnostic but I'm going to start praying fervently that we don't get into a goddamned Jihad with a fifth of our brothers and sisters in the human race.  But I'm not willing to share this planet with the vermin who hit those innocent people.

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 22:00:57 (ZULU) 

I use (and love) the Prometheus powder measure.

Had to make some minor mods for large stick powders, but the unit spits out about 300 excellent loads an hour.  My experience is limited, but I consider it to be the fastest powder measuring device that I've used.

The mods amounted to an AC to DC power supply (1.5VDC) that powers the Midway trickler and the very tiny (out of balance) motor that is epoxied to the dump funnel.  This motor is from a pager and when powder drum is moved to the dump/initial refill position (mercury switch attached), the powder appears to be "sucked" into the awaiting case.  Powder that is dumped into the funnel is very hard to see.  This eliminates any worries and allows total concentration on the balance pointers.

Don't get here often these days, but good to see that Bill R. is still kicking.

Best to all.

Bill Wylde <>
SE, IL, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 22:29:27 (ZULU) 


Just some info to ponder ...I was asked yesterday by a SOCOM officer to not comment on or post any further speculation concerning upcoming impending military operations.

Even though a lot of us are no longer in the military, we once had the tickets and experience that lend a great deal more credence to our "speculation" than the average person.  In the interests of security and in the safety of our precious warriors, join me in refraining from any further speculation and commentary on targeting and military options exercised against the worldwide terrorist networks.

Be safe.  Be smart.

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 00:15:54 (ZULU) 

Here, what about this for mind games . . . . .

Have EVERY Allied fighter aircraft that wants to play fly over all major Afghanistan cities at say 500ft above the ground. Then every 15 minutes have one kick on their afterburners and break the sound barrier.  That concussional force every 15 minutes should elevate spending the money on bombing the place.

"We'll stop when we get Bin Laden!  OK????"

DJ Bolinski <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 01:08:46 (ZULU) 


Some of you are probably wondering why "Sir Wes" has been quiet lately, in view of the last weeks events...

First, I'm as ticked as the rest of you. Perhaps more so, if that is possible. I tend to take these things VERY personally. These losses effect me almost as much as if I had lost one of my Marines...

While speculation is good, it is just that. I support our current administration 100%. What G.W. told Schumer and Clinton is dead on...that was their style. Look like we did something decisive and smile smuggly. While the rest of the world is laughing. Payback this time is going to be up front and personal. If I read my seeing Collin Powell in Uniform, at the National Cathedral, as an indicator.

We couldn't have a better team in place, IMHO.

Bill indicated that most of us have a clearer picture of what is happening because we've been there or in similar situations. I agree. Let's not give the bastards any ideas or clues about what we are up to until the action is taken.

Finally, lets support those in our own county through prayer and any other way we can. Give blood, money, time...whatever.

Let's pray for those responsible...that they get what they deserve...;-)

This attack was at America. They missed by a mile, because America is not about money or buildings. It is an ideal that is carried in the hearts and minds of all of us. As long as that exhists and there is one of us to "carry the torch" America will exhist and prevail.

God Bless and Semper Fidelis,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 01:40:14 (ZULU) 

I haven't read the 'Roster' yet for today, but just received this from the NSSF (national Shooting Sports Foundation).

· AIRLINES FIREARMS TRANSPORTATION REGULATIONS STAY UNCHANGED FOR THE MOMENT . . . With heightened security concerns following the September 11 terrorist attacks, strict new airport and airline security procedures are being instituted across the nation. Among the new measures travelers will encounter include a ban on carrying any cutting instruments on board aircraft. This includes even the smallest of pocketknives. Knives may be transported only in checked baggage. For hunters, and sportsmen traveling with firearms, the FAA has not issued any new restrictions yet. The basic requirements still apply. All firearms must be declared, and must be unloaded and secured in a lockable container. It is advisable to check ammunition in separate baggage. Travelers are advised to contact their specific airlines well in advance of any flights to ascertain the company’s individual requirements and recommendations. To further assist the flyer, our friends at Safari Club International have created an on-line resource, which contains timely information from the United States FAA, Department of Transportation, Air Traffic Control System Command Center as well as notices from many airlines. To view go to

Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:01:06 (ZULU) 


If it's OK with you I'm going to break with tradition and post something about RIFLES!

I love my Stealth .223, but am thinking of selling it. The reason is that I want a "mirror image" of my M40A1 and Chandler 6.5 X .284. That way I'm training using the same equipment.

Any of you have a recommendation for good .223 barrels. I've used Krieger, Hart, Shilen, Douglas Premium(air-gauged)XXX, and Obermeyer.

My choice will always be Obermeyer, but frankly the chance of getting a .223 barrel from Boots is right up there with the second coming of Christ. I'll probably go 1:8" or 1:9" twist. Comments? Will use 69-77 grain projo's...

Scope, still to be determined, but probably a Loopie or may give U.S. Optical a try.

Your thought and comments are solicited.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:07:52 (ZULU) 

Bill0294:  Roger that.

All:  This thing has my mind racing and I'm using up bandwidth venting.  This energy needs to be burned up doing something useful like helping these fine kids learn to use these little black rifles. All us old farts would give anything to be able to do more, but that's going to have to be my contribution. I've tried to go back into lurk mode before.  This time I'll try harder.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:08:43 (ZULU) 


Check this out



Provisions in three separate presidential executive orders -- Section 5(g) of Executive Order 11905, Section 2-305 of Executive Order 12036 and Section 2.11 of Executive Order 12333 -- ban the United States government from engaging in efforts to assassinate enemies of our country.  The acts of war committed against our countrymen on September 11, 2001 by faceless cowards of the nation of Islamic terror require that President George Bush rescind these bans immediately. Please link to the page below and sign the petition urging your representative in Congress to call on President Bush to issue an executive order repealing the prohibitions on assassinations and immediately pass H.R. 19 -- "The Terrorist Elimination Act of 2001."

Visit --

TonyM <>
FL, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:12:33 (ZULU) 

Eugene Harris...

>"Has anyone had any experience with the Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x40 Mil Dot scope?"<

I have one when they were made by Bausch & Lomb... I guess the Bushnell is the same... An excellent scope with some of the best optics I've seen, it is BLINDINGLY sharp... BUT. They have a total of 26 moa of elevation from top to bottom, and in the average set-up, you will lose half of that.

If you put on Leupold QRW bases, and then get medium height Burris "Signature "ZEE" rings, and get the shim kit, you can have most all the elevation as "UP", and it is enough to take most cartridges out to 800 or 900 yds. That's the set-up I have on my .223 M70 Custom Sharpshooter, and it's great.  Also the calibrations take a bit of getting used to, they are 1/8 moa clicks, a hash mark every two clicks, and a number every 4 clicks, but the numbers count the hash marks, not the moa... so if you go one moa up from "0", you are on #4, not "1", or "8"... not a problem, as you just mark up your range notes in whatever it says, and go with it.


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:52:47 (ZULU) 

Ref the enemy of my enemy...

Some interesting reading at

Getting into the nest with the hornets???

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
Kenosha, WI, US of A - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 03:30:48 (ZULU) 

Bill W. greetings, OM glad to see you too! You must have heard me say .223 is a 600 yarder. For the Record that don't go for this ole rifleman gents! He sights em in about 800.  I thought about you when I said that Bill, I could see the smile on your face.

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 03:42:44 (ZULU) 


Well, I guess THAT'S a shooting post!

Hnak <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 03:44:08 (ZULU) 

ok anyone try to suck up info off this site...with great God Bless America..dont tread on me or i'll make u really hurt kinda classy people here's some top rate info for you...pull the grenade and throw the pin

marc <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 06:17:43 (ZULU) 


I ralised something last night, after switching off and in bed, ready to fall asleep (this morning actually).  Though I've communicated with some in private, I never actually posted my thoughts here.  I posted Michale from Australia's the other day, but not my own!! :-(

First of all my apologies for that - I was so shocked at this, and as I say writing/responding to some in private, it completely went past me.  My wife couldn't believe it last week when I just came home, swithed on the TV and sat there watching this all unfold some two hours after the first impact.

Bruce/Brian/others who lost ones due to all this, my herat-felt condolences, and may God be with you and lead your guys in this time of loss.

Andy's dad, has uncle Mike been found, or contacted you yet?  Or...?

Those called up to the line - God bless, and may He protect you, and guide you - and your bullets.

Lt Chris, strength to you, and your fellow officers and firemen, and all other rescue personnel, and thanks for sharing your experience and pain with us.  Let me say that I do not think it is childish at all - it shows a man of character who can do his work, yet weep for those in pain.

To all of you in the United States, especially those closer to all this, our condolences.  You are in our prayers, and we pray that God will help that those who did this, and all those who supported them, are brought to justice.  And by justice I do not mean to sit in a prison and plan and direct more such attrocities.

God Bless!!

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 07:04:33 (ZULU) 

Ref: Uncle Mike

I made contact and Mike's ok.  He was on his way to a meeting at the RSA Embassy when the attack happened.  He saw the site a few minutes after impact.  Business is picking up at his end.

Ref: Other Threads

I just read this thread.

I don't know what to think.

Ref: Change in Plans

Any of you guys going to the SP Shoot in Texas be advised the bridge to the island is lodging plans will have to be made.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 11:44:34 (ZULU) 


   Just catching up on the DR, still in the process of moving so am way behind the curve. I do get to build an new and improved loading room in the basement though this winter so it won't be so bad.(HA)

   I caught your question on the .223 barrels and thought I would share my experience with you on them. I have only had two, one was a Douglas and the other was a Pac Nor.

  The Douglas shot everything into a .5 average and was not particular about any load, be it hand load or factory. I never seen a barrel do that before. The Pac Nor shot really well but was more fussy with loads than the Douglas. It would shoot its favorite load into a little hole but all around the Douglas would have been a better choice for the aveage guy.

   I probably just muddied the water instead of helping but I think you know that no matter which barrel you go with its the smith that makes them shoot because all the top barrels are shooters. Good luck!!

Pat <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 16:10:14 (ZULU) 

This is excellent:

Earlier I said that "...I'm going to start praying fervently that we don't get into a goddamned Jihad with a fifth of our brothers and sisters in the human race."

Check that:  I meant "...praying fervently that we aren't forced to kill huge numbers of..."

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 17:38:49 (ZULU) 

Hey guys,

What can you guys tell me about log books?  For the longest time, I used to use a simple notebook with my own info (just distance adjustments and guesses at the wind, etc.).  Now that I have a real one, I'd like suggested information on the proper notes and method of keeping info listed.  Also, what is the proper way of putting information from my notebook to the log book?  Or since I just had premier optics redo my scope, should I not worry about it?

Can anyone send me a link with details? or email me some info?



God Bless America

BCR #226 <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 17:48:42 (ZULU) 

Marco, whats this new leatherman, my son has got a couple, but I never owned one yet,8th-12th Oct, Boar Hunt,13th-14th Oct, CQB Boar hunt(driven)1000DM whole week, no trophy fees on Driven Hunt, or 800DM driven hunt only, any one else interested?

I was down the Brit 300m today with my Reheymington, couldn't get any Hornady ammo so i used Federal 168gr match, averaged 10mm groups at 100m, 20mm at 300m which realy pleased me, since it likes the Hornady best, with 100m zero I needed 7 clicks to be on at 200m(14cm)and 16 clicks to be on at 300m(48cm) figure thats about right for a 20" barrel. the rifle was still bang on zero, despite coming out of the stock(AICS) so I could fit a new trigger(thanks Fred !!) and removing the scope, repeatability of Badger rings never fails to amaze me (and the AICS too), so now I need a longer range, when you on the 500m next? regards to all.Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 19:05:39 (ZULU) 

LOG BOOKS:  Mike, what type of log book are you needing.  Military, LE or just a data book for a rifle ?

LE-wise (which is the limit of my experience), there are several different ones out there.  In my experiences with them, they were written/designed by one or two guys for those same one or two guys perceived needs and then marketed commercially $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Most take some things from the military manuals and incorporate that into their makeup.  Most are somewhat generic but never really seem to fill all requirements.  I don't believe any of them are the "be all" of log books.

You may be on to something by keeping your own.  Look through the military sniping manuals for a start. The best I ever saw was used by an ex Force Recon guy/ FBI firearms instructor. It was a SMALL pilot's leg log with a three ring binder inside.  It would fit in a BDU pocket. (I have not been able to find one like it since).  He laminated all his rifle data, range cards, mil dot conversions, etc. and had it readily available.  He also had a small piece of plexi glass with three ring holes inside.  He could use a grease pencil for drawing range cards or writing data that would change from mission to mission and it was all waterproof.  Cool set up.  The others mentioned above are okay but you will probably find each of them lacking in some way.  I suggest keeping a rifle log at the house for each rifle (# of shots fired) AND a separate field log for field data when you are actually on the gun.  Just depends on YOUR needs.

Pencils are better than pens.  Write in the rain paper is cool too.

I'm in the process of designing/making our own logbooks at my PD now.

I haven't had much time to research a lot of things in this regard but when I do, I'll shoot it to the roster.  I'm not real smart but I am somewhat resourceful.

IMHO, many times with this sniping thing, you can make something (cheap) yourself that will work as good or better for you than a commercially available item.

2 cents, Brian K. Sain

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 20:32:54 (ZULU) 

Good ones:

Pray for the young men who have to face up to this.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 20:48:07 (ZULU) 

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 21:46:00 (ZULU) 


Obviously a newby:-).  Check out the TRGT databook sold by US Tactical at

Some guys I know put it together using some old retired fart with experience in the USMC and Army programs.  Best deal on the market by far.


Gooch <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 21:56:37 (ZULU) 


Here's what I heard from an old Delta Force operator.  He said that there is a plan to fill C-5's with parachute equipped, rapid, angry wild boars (pigs for all of you stupid ass terrs) and drop them onto known terrorist camps in the Mid-east.  I've also heard that we are planning to drop syphillus infected female sheep on the same mission.  I hear Usama and the rest of his officers have a private herd of little piggys that they are trying to breed a new master race with.

Too bad all of you terrorist, pig fuckers out there are too chicken shit to reply.

Next time if you were REAL men you would get in a real shootin match with some of us armed americans.  Not unarmed WOMEN and CHILDREN.  By the way.  Sorry about the flight that crashed in PA that our AMERICAN MEN took out of your little pig shit stained hands.


Gooch <>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 22:15:34 (ZULU) 

Peter L;

Ref. Leatherman tool, been using one since 1992 and it has come in quite handy from time to time, from using the saw blade, the knife blade, the screwdrivers and mostly the pliers, never go home without them. The Wave is the newest type, with this one you do not have to open the pliers first to be able to use one of the blades, these are made on the outside.

About the 500 meter range, coming saturday it wont be open due to a competition which is being held on it, but i do believe there is a saturday somewhere in october when it will be open, i will let you know.

Also, i think i am going to give the Federal and hornady match ammo a try, haven't bought me factory match ammo in a while, time to try it again, specially since you sounds to be getting good results with them, what type of scope do you have on your Remmie, and does it have 1/4 moa klicks?

Speaking bout scopes, an American rosterfarian asked me to have a look see for a 4x25 S&B scope with stanag mount for on top of a g3 on this side of the pond, havent been able to find one yet, maybe you know where i can get one for him for a reasonable price??

Wes Howe;

Ref spitting image of your Chandler,

would like to know why you choose  the .223 for training your skills on the 6,5x.284, is it because of its trajectory or is it because you can get less expensive ammo for it? Could you also train with a .308 for instance and use the 6,5x.284 only for competitions?

To all;

were gonna have us ourselves a little civilian "sniper" get together overhere, will be doing some cam/conc, stalking, kims games, range estimations, you fella's know of anything else which might be interesting that we could be doing on such a day?? Any info apreciated.

Cya around,


Marco <>
NL - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 22:31:16 (ZULU) 


I used the wave for a while, but went back to the Supertool.  It seems to be much more heavy duty, and has lasted me over three HARD years of daily fioeld use.  The wave was nice in the hand, as you don't have to grip the open part of the handles and I like the way the blades are accessable from the outside, but when prying and during very hard use, if found the wave to break faster then the super tool.

Have you tried the gerber tool for field use?  You can get to the plyers with a flick of the wrist and the quality used to be very good.

BTW, the wave goes for about 65USD and the supertool about 50USD...Eat your heart out:-)


wondering if you had any info on the NOV ILR shoot. We're only 45 days out of November.  Just trying to plan some Vacation :-)

Can't help but think of how those chickenshits feel about Americans,and others ;-), using their vacation to shoot long rifles?? They've gotta wonder how they'd be able to control an armed population.  Seems the terrorists of the world have the same idealogical dillema as our Senete.....('cept that relieved bastard Condit)


Chris <>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 23:08:13 (ZULU) 


Marco asked "why an M40A1 in .223"? Simple, I like the caliber and would like one that matches my .308 and 6.5 X .284. No other reason than it will have the same handling characteristics and operation. Pretty anal, huh?

Brian: I find the military log books and LE ones lacking for my shooting. I'm looking at melding the two and coming up with a custom one that I can print on "write in the rain" paper and carry with me. Most are for range or field use, but do not cover the situations I find myself in most of the time. Seem to be geared toward the KD range type of shooting.

All for now. She "who must be obeyed" is sick and I'm prbably going to have to get her to the doctor this evening.



Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, 97326 - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 00:08:03 (ZULU) 

Hogs and Hogettes,

We have 5 slots available (only taking 30 entries) for the Sniper Match this weekend. Entry fees $150 with 60% of the pot going to the winners. Also, at no additional cost, there will be a special side match that pays $500. Anyone interested in attending, contact me ASAP.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA By Gawd ! - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 00:40:25 (ZULU) 

Fatboy, I think regarding the shitbags opinion of us the their aims are more to do with eradicating us than controlling.

Heard a Pakistani on tv last night Talkin about wether or not his govt should side with us or not,he thinks they shouldnt,if the U.S and allies want to go on a campain and get amongst muslim terrs that his govt should be agin us on the grounds thay one musims blood is sacred to other muslims.Thats his opinion, hope the rest see sense.



Gavan Willis <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 02:12:02 (ZULU) 

S&B 168gr Match - Has anyone tried these?  Their price point is lower than their competitors', and their .45 Ball shoots really well in what I've tried it in (it soots up a lot, though).

Earl <>
KC, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 02:22:26 (ZULU) 


Term used loosley, and advisedly......((;

Heard some "disturbing", news today...........

I understand the Red's signed a "Trade Agreement", with Afgan's, a while back........

Heard they are beginning to start troop movements in / towards that general vicinity.......

Anyone heard same??.

A definite "Did not want to hear".

Earl, S & B the magnet test on that stuff.......ALL I have seen is flash plated STEEL guilded jackets.......NOT what you want to shoot in any tube you "Like".


JR, speaking of "Steel", whatever happened to the "Report", test you were gonna do on the JB's paste.......??( Steel removal).

Two Shoes

Dos Zapatos <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 03:01:54 (ZULU) 

Hi Kent,

Read your post, I hate it when you hold back!!!!!!

I agree with you 110%

Keep your head down and your rifle zeroed!

Marty out!

America, The best thing going on the planet!

Marty <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 03:19:39 (ZULU) 

A fair percentage of my posts have been nonsense.  Looks like this is a big, very crude outline of the plan.  Piss us off bad enough that we follow them into a hornet's nest.  They manipulate us into blundering around until they unify the Central Asian people.  Run up a string of propaganda victories to make the Muslims think siding with them is backing a winner.  They take the oil.  Game, set, match.  Toss in a few weapons of mass destruction just to make it interesting.

The first half of that is the Ghengis Khan strategy.  They remember him.  I'm not up on the Mohammed story.  It would be no surprise if it was something similar.

Very good chance that our victories will be small, subtle and invisible.  We could get the characters responsible for the atrocity and the public never knows it.  Americans like seeing things on TV.  That plays against us.

I don't know how close they've got it figured but its so complicated that no one could possibly know how its going to play out.

They are more nimble and are in thier own sand box.  We have the mass and our leadership looks real solid.

Keep your eye on the oil.

They caught us in condition white: fat, dumb and happy.

bin Ladin explains how it is his religious duty to kill us all:

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 04:18:40 (ZULU) 


I see here and there we are returning to "normal" a bit.  Will things ever be "normal" again?

Had a comment or two thanking me for letting the Roster go these last couple of days.  Hell, how else!!  I may not have posted, but I've surely been reading.  And I don't mind - don't know 'bout the rest of the staff, but I surely don't.  It just confirms yet again that we here at Sniper Country are a like minded bunch of individuals.  Some things were said which the guys who said it would (and already have) look back at later and "Did I really type that?  Geesh, obviously I was not thinking, but was merely lashing out in anger"

That's fine by me.  I have seen the Roster as a safe place for those who want to vent to do so.  A place where they know they are welcome - for some it may almost be the only place to do so and still be fully accepted and respected afterwards.

If it means I have to archive more often - so be it.  Every night?  Then so be it - maybe that'll have me get my butt in gear to write the scripts to be able to do that automatically over the 'net, and giving the other guys the ability to do so as well.

I know I'm just rambling now, and probably not making much sense, but that is nothing new either! :-)


Dan, good to see you back and contributing again.  Talking nonsense?  So what?  At least you're home again!


Good to see that a number of guys that have been absent for a while have been coming back again - nothing like a shock to the system to have one want to be in a safe place again.  We will differ on many points again in future, and sometimes it will be heated, but in the end we're just one big family.


Andy's dad, glad to hear that Mike is fine - and glad to hear that the RSA is at least good for something!

Was on the news yesterday that some of our extremist Muslim groups in the Cape have said that, if the US attacks Afghanistan, they will go and help defend.  I hope they do - means we'll be rid of them. :-)

Think I've rambled enough for now.


Oh yes, one more thing.  I went to a new PC over the weekend, haven't got anti-virus software on it yet, and it means I've already been hit and that my PC (Windows 2000 Advanced Server with Internet Information Server software, amongst others, on it) is now being used as a zombie by some or other bloody hacker!

So, it if I odn't respond to registration requests, or other mail, for a day or so, you guys know why - at least I'll be able to communicate here from work.

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 06:29:59 (ZULU) 


I am sitting here typing one handed; in my left arm, I am holding my 13-month-old son who is sleeping.

Watching him and remembering the pictures burned into my mind during the 11th of September is causing a tear to run down my cheek.

My deepest condolences to those of you who lost loved ones. My respect to those brave men and women that helped and are still helping.

The world has changed since last week, and I hope that the reactions taken will be thoughtful, precise, and effective in order to make this a safe world in which little boys and girls can grow up in peace.

Our Military is preparing for a joint effort. Our strength’s are logistics and medical care, two lessons learned from WW2.

I was on a Reserve training last night training with a Crisis Reaction Force platoon. During the end of our training, we had two bomb threats phoned in to our Kaserne and a neighbouring one. This new threat is all over with every wanna be terrorist jumping on the wagon for a free ride.



Torsten <>
Germany - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 08:11:57 (ZULU) 

I see on the news the pres of Indonesia in the U.S talkin to dubya hope to God they come down on our side,biggest muslim nation, short boat ride north west of here and everyone busy in the sand box,dont want them gettin all wound up at the U.S and allies.



Gavan Willis <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 09:14:09 (ZULU) 

Earl, I don't let Sellier&Belliot ammo near any rifle I am fond of, they still use chorosive primers in their hunting ammo, don't know about the target stuff, I wouldn't risk it. I do use their pistol ammo as a last resort when I have shot of all my other, but I clean the pistol extra thoroughly afterward.

Marco, I don't need a leatherman, I carry the REME Armourers basic tool kit (plus half the supplimentary) every where I go, Elizabeth II decided she didn't need it any more back in 96, so I figured well, maybe I will have a use for it !! and I have, thats why I never bothered with a leatherman, I have a swiss army knife though !!

Ref the S&B scope, stanag mounts for the G3, try the used, for sale adds in the german  gun magazine, Visier or Calibre, I wil keep my eyes open for you. I also have a couple more German rifle builder addresses for you, I'll email you em.. Pete.L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 11:33:27 (ZULU) 

Nevermind the public statements.  The Europeans know they are in.  They aren't eager to send armies charging valiantly into quicksand, but they are busily building and coordinating intellegence networks.  That's fundamentally important.  They are also working on drying up the money.  They may not like MacDonald's, Disney and slasher movies (I hate all three) but they know that if we go down, they do too.  They can be expected to behave in thier rational self interest.

In this kind of shadow warfare, they have or can get the guys on the ground in Europe to do what they need to do.  CIGA, GS9, SAS and such play rough enough, thank you very much.

This link discusses Turkey and India.  They are both fundamental.

We're holding the cards and Dubya don't look like the kind of boy to fold a winning hand.

Torsten:  We're with you, buddy.

Marius:  Thanks.

CDC' <>
Did I say 'Lurk'?, - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 11:49:23 (ZULU) 


Newbie?  Well, in a sense maybe.  LOL...

I picked up one of the data books from Rod at Storm Mountain.  It has the write in the rain paper and all that neat stuff and it has areas for a lot more info then I have ever put down before.  In the past, I've always just put the information in a notebook with the following info...

Date xx/xx/xx, temp (F), wind (MPH and direction), distance (Yards), scope settings, angle of the shot (est.), POI (Inches from the X), and notes.

I guess I am trying to find out if there is a "standard" or "correct" method for inputting data into a log book.   Also, my log book is limited to stationary targets and no cold bore shots are listed (which now I have a section to run those in).



BCR #226 <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 12:09:38 (ZULU) 

I heard this morning that 32 of the guys the FBI is after can fly a freaking plane.  Some of these guys are far smarter than I think we give them credit for.  They have money, are businessmen and were trained right here.  They also surf the net.  I guess we will have to get that image of some old Afghan in the mountains carrying a slung AK out of our heads if we're gonna do this thing right.

Watch your six fellas,


brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 12:36:11 (ZULU) 

Peter Lincoln,

Thanks for saving from the S&B experiment I was about to try!  Their .45 Ball shoots into 1 1/2 - 2" out of a Kart barrel, but I hadn't given too much thought to the primers.  Yikes!

Earl <>
KC, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 13:20:18 (ZULU) 


   Most log books won't meet your needs exactly. As Brian said many are taken from or are a combination of military or police books. It is quite easy to make up your own. I took what I wanted and needed, cut out some pasted here and there and then went to a copy machine and started making sheets.

   I now have a log book that suits my needs and gives me the info that I want. I made up my own data sheets and laminated them. I still have a hard time getting away from my old note book though, its just always there. With a little imagination and time you can come up with something that suits just your needs, good luck!!

Pat <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 13:24:19 (ZULU) 

MIKE:  Bro, Ya'll are probably getting way past tired of me posting all the time.  I was telling my mom the other day that my son got in trouble for talking in class.  She just looked at me with that knowing smile that I think all moms have and didn't say a word.  She got up and went into her bedroom.  She was gone a while and came back with my first grade report card.  She didn't say anything and just handed it to me.  There it was.  Straight As.  Boy was I proud.  Then, under CONDUCT - "Brian is a smart kid but talks entirely too much in class".  Damn, I'm 39 years old.  Truth hurts and the apple don't fall far . . . but, I digress.

Logbooks. I ain't no expert or nuthin' else and I know I talk too much, but here again is my 2 cents.  I'm simple minded.  Being that Sniping is a thinking man's game, I have found that if I keep it simple, I screw it up less.  Also, being that accuracy is the product of uniformity, I try to write everything down the same way, in the same place, every time.  That way, if the wind, light or whatever changes from the last time I shot, I can flip back through the pages and see what it was like on a previous day without having to hunt all over the page for where I logged the info.  There doesn't seem to be a perfect way to log your data but again, I try and keep it simple.  Use what works for you.  If you are a cop, I'm sure you know that logbook may be called into a court room if you have to shoot someone (write neatly).  If a soldier, then do exactly what your instructor teaches.  If otherwise, make it work for you in your own way.

Done, Brian

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 14:16:32 (ZULU) 

#1 - never underestimate your enemy

#2 - if you need to go buy gear after something big happens, you aren't prepared.

#3 - if you aren't willing to risk everything to defend your freedom, you aren't my definition of a man

If the threat of terrorists in the US is real, so be it.

There are hundreds of thousands of pissed off Americans that want some payback... we don't plan to hide behind our police and military if they are busy elsewhere... we are a team and we are hunting you....we hate you and want to kill you...

My resolve is permanent, I will never, ever let up.

I am ready.  Every day, I make more men ready.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 14:18:00 (ZULU) 

Food for thought....

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly

stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J.

Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic

terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and

teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts,

execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered

them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were

terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This

would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist


All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts

dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the

terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This

brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show

them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless

supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.

ssg adam g. scott <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 14:44:04 (ZULU) 


Headed to the range this morn for some serious .308 work. Friend has the day off and we are teaming up. Will report back later.

To those that expressed their concern over my wife, Sharran, she's better this morn, but there is some internal bleeding and follow up is in progress. NOT life threatening, at this point. She had breast cancer (lumpectomy) six months ago, so this type of thing gets me VERY nervous. Last thing I want is to be a 50 year old widower or see her in pain. I GOT A GOOD ONE HERE...



Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 14:50:26 (ZULU) 

Give up?


Look at the balance of forces.  They are trying to take on the whole world all at once.  Unless we are the most desperately stupid people in history, thier chance of victory approaches zero.

Put on your game face and get ready to get your knuckles bloody.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 14:51:26 (ZULU) 

Log Books:   COLD BORE, COLD BORE, COLD BORE....   Don't forget Temp., Wind (Dir and MPH), Alt., Mirage, Light, Call, POI, Ammo used and Comments (Mindset).  Use a range card and record settings, initial calls  and actual for conditions.    Stationary targets ??  Good to track ammo lots and groups on short range targets, out to 300. (might see a pattern in your shooting techniques and equipment).  Movers ??  (if only I engaged them more often, but good info on leads for various speeds and distances).  Keep a barrel log and record any maintanence to your rifle.  Data chart reprints??  Formula's are good reminders but ballistic charts vary too much from rifle/ammo combo's.  Keep your own references, the provided ones are just starting points.  Observation logs and field sketches?  I think they should be kept elsewhere, not with rifle data.

Bottom line for me --- TRGT's loose leaf log book, keep the pages you need, add your own material, replace pages as needed....

Mildot Master a must.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 15:04:42 (ZULU) 

Wes; hope Sharon gets better durn it! Got a good friend going through the same stuff. The uncertainty is the worse part I know.

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 15:16:40 (ZULU) 

Just sitting with nothing to do :)

I have attached a copy - a little less polite than my letter to our PM - that I wrote to one of the opposition parties (socialist)

I forward this to some friends - I encourage my fellow Canadians (you damm lurkers - eh!) to write to both their mp's and the PM to express our grief  and rage at what has happend to our American brothers - and to emplore him to fully committ us (the CF) to ridding the world of the Terorists and theior host nation support.

Ex Coelis

(from the sky - for you legs :)


> I read the (CANADIAN) parliamentary debates - some of these politicians are too dumb to

> get into the infantry


> 079A-E.htm


> Trying to issue a spine

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Dominique Vaillancourt []

>> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 12:19 PM

>> To: 'Kevin Boland'

>> Subject: RE: Response to Terrorism


>> Thank you for your e-mail.  I have forwarded it to Alexa McDonough's

>> office.


>> Regards


>> opeiu:225-dv


>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Kevin Boland

>> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:42 PM

>> To: ''

>> Subject: Response to Terrorism



>> To The New Democratic Party,


>> I find myself am>> - in reading the responces in the parliamnetary debate

>> yesterday. What colour is the sky in your world.

>> Like any war the responce must swift - it must be deadly and it must crush

>> your opponents and remove their desire to continue their struggle.


>> Yours Truly


Evil Kev (Kevin of the GWN wearing game face) <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 15:52:10 (ZULU) 


I have been lurking and posting on this site for many years. I have learned alot from the regular posters of this site.

I would like to take this opertunity to expess my deepest condolence to the friends and family of those who have been lost.

First and foremost, revenge is a sweet thought. But I agree with some of the people here. Most of us have a pretty good idea of what our leaders in Washington are planning to do. By stating what that is on this site is not a good idea. It only prepares the enemy for our attack.

I was on the first Submarine to enter the Persian Gulf after Desert Storm. One of the reasons we are so effective in that conflict. Is that know one knew we were there, or when we would strike. As I quote the military leaders of that time. "We do not discuss Submarine Operations". Therefore we should not discuss any other operations, to protect those who are going in country. To do what we would love to do.

Ramble mode off: Obviously I am alittle pissed about all these attacks. And I respect everyone's opinion on this site. Just me 2 cents worth.

"Prepare for the worst and Hope for the best".


Bryan <>
CA, - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 16:25:45 (ZULU) 

Out of the ballpark by THE ELITE LIBERAL publication:

Taliban's threats by major military historian:

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 16:49:44 (ZULU) 

Kevin (Andy's dad) posted this but it may have gotten buried and overlooked with all the "wartalk" going on recently but it is important, at least it should be to a lot of guys here.

Storm Mountain and Rod Ryan in particular are getting shit on on some other board.  Talk of false credentials and such.  As Kevin said, one doesn't know what to think.

Anybody care to help out and provide some enlightenment?


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 17:02:49 (ZULU) 

Steiner binoculars onsale at

8x56 night hunter for $404!!

Winston Wu <>
ca, - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 18:07:09 (ZULU) 

I commented on the socnet thread.  If those guys want to miss out on good training, that is their concern.


BCR #226 <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 18:16:17 (ZULU) 

Gents, ladies and the rest...

So exactly what affect does the pig slop have on a 190MK doing say...2900FPS?  Will it make my bbl last longer?  Will it clean easier?  Sure will smell better though...  Cordite and frying bacon. Mmmmm!

Fellas, I just got a couple of security briefs on happenings both here and abroad.  Some from mil source some forwarded to us from State Police.  Be careful, there's still bandits on our home turf and they are attempting things.  Won't go into detail here, just watch out (but let's not get paranoid).

Outta here,


Caison <>
De, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 18:42:21 (ZULU) 

I'm going to go catch up on my math homework then get a real nice night's sleep.

Good stuff:

Sovs on Afghanistan:

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 21:45:13 (ZULU) 


Take a look, I've posted another article by Slugboy about Personal Kit And Equipment.

Very interesting

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 21:54:03 (ZULU) 


In order to find one of those Stanag scopes for on the G3, look here:

The scope is on the top of the list and retails for DM 560-780 without the mount. Torsten, if you have any better ideas, let us know.



Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 22:56:16 (ZULU) 


Several items to post...the .308 practice session went OK. I say OK, because I didn't shoot as well as I could have. Seemed to be focused elsewhere. My partner was shooting a 6.5/06 match gun and chased the bull. Same problem. We both stopped early rather than waste ammo. Practice again tomorrow evening.

CDC, someone really struck a nerve. I don't think I've seen you post this much in the last year! You are dead on...

One thing I've noted is that a great many people are still subscribing our values to these people rather than their own. BIG MISTAKE. Kinda like saying a WWII Kamikazee was "mildly committed"...

On a serious note: We have confirmed the loss of a Marine on September 11, at the WTC.

Gunnery Sergeant James McEniry, USMCR, 6th Communication Battalion, Brooklyn, N.Y. was serving with NYPD Emergency Services, Truck #7, Floyd Bennett Field, Brooklyn, N.Y. when they responded to the WTC Terrorist Attack. He is considered KIA and is the first Marine I personally know about.

God Speed Gunny...remember our motto. You will not be forgotten.

Gunny McEniry typified the Marine Reserve Program in this country. Doubly so, because he was also a firefighter. If that isn't a "citizen soldier" I don't know what qualifies. Since I've been an Inspector-Instructor for a reserve unit (Det 2, Comm. Co., Allentown, PA) and a reserve myself this goes right to the heart. I probably have a deeper respect and understanding for this commitment than many. Perhaps it's best underscored by the fact that our reserves are called upon more and more by our government. Our Marine Reserve Engineers and Tankers spearheaded the attahat nto Kuwait...they do us all proud.

Note how the yuppie self-servers and peace/one world order folks seem to have disappeared all of a sudden. Seems they are more than ready to have our folks do their dirty work, but god forbid that they would have to interupt their precious lives to assist. Hope they all rot in hell...

Kind Regards,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 02:41:15 (ZULU) 

Wes:  I'd like to accept the complement but everything I've posted was stolen from the links provided.  If I know it, it is simple as dirt to 'The Players'.

As for "hitting a nerve"; I never much liked New Yorkers, but that's a family matter.  Everyone else stay out of it.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 04:54:53 (ZULU) 


for anyone who shoots NRA High Power or the 1000 yard matches at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN, the 29-30 matchs have been cancelled due to OPSEC concerns.  No word on when the range will re-open.

Hope you all are well...


Chris <>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 11:11:37 (ZULU) 

Wes Howe> Note how the yuppie self-servers and peace/one world order folks seem to have disappeared all of a sudden.

Anti-war forces muster in San Francisco Bay area:

Antiwar rally is today at U-M:

Peace vigils planned throughout the US:

Americans' opinions differ on flying the flag:


Anyone who knows the real-world legal ramifications of carrying a pistol, concealed or otherwise, by a civilian in the great state of Wisconsin, please send me an email.  Jail is an outcome I wish to avoid.  It's not something I ever thought I'd feel the need to do, but last week's events have altered my sense of personal safety.

And may God bless those who's lives were touched by last week's tragedies.  You are all in my prayers.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 12:01:03 (ZULU) 

Ref: Cold Weather Opns.

The weather is changing here.  Fall is in the air.  I usually spend some time each fall in the Adirondaks so I'm beginning to put together my gear.  I've seen over-booties advertised that look like sleeping bags for your feet.  These items are carried during travel while wearing lighter insulated boots (ie. Danners) then when you come to a halt you don the over-booties.  Have any of you ever used them and if so what do you think of them?  My options have always been either the Danners (great for hiking) or heavy insulated guide boots (great for standing).

Where can I get USGI over-whites?


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 12:01:13 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 12:19:13 (ZULU) 

Got the skinny on the Federal Air Marshall Program this morning, they are in a high recruitment mode if anyone is interested.  My prior military experience doesn't get me down low enough for age exemptment so I guess I'm out.   Besides it would have been tough to convince the wife I need a career change especially with a mortgage and a drop in pay.   Oh well !!!

For those interested heres the web site:

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 13:08:37 (ZULU) 

Those "Peace" yo-yos are only further marginalizing themselves.  We WANT them to beg for our leaders to surrender.  Who'll listen to them after this one?

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 13:23:46 (ZULU) 

Wes H.: Like to know your opinion on the following:

I also like to buy an 6,5X284 rifle, the same as Marco wants.

But can you tell me what your experience is about that caliber insteat of the older .308?

How long do you have your barrel; we are thinking of 30".

Paul <>
Wijchen, elsewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 13:27:29 (ZULU) 

Wes H.: Like to know your opinion on the following:

I also like to buy an 6,5X284 rifle, the same as Marco wants.

But can you tell me what your experience is about that caliber insteat of the older .308?

How long do you have your barrel; we are thinking of 30".

Paul <>
Wijchen, elsewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 13:31:02 (ZULU) 

World War III war goals:

War strategy:

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 14:10:43 (ZULU) 

Andys Dad,

Use and firmly appreciate the benefits of the overbooties.

One word of caution;  These things do not breathe, so your feet are going to be sweat soaked at days end.  Clean dry socks and foot powder must be added to the kit, as well as letting the boots air out in the evenings.

Best to all,


Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, AMERICA - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 14:13:28 (ZULU) 

Jerry Cross, I now have the picture of the WTC in 2005 scanned in, email me on this address and I will send you it, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 15:38:11 (ZULU) 

Hey guys,

Couple a questions...Went to the range the other day to sight in and test fire the new PSS in .223.  I was kind of dismayed to see 3-4 inch groups at 100 yds.  I'm used to one holers at 100 with my PSS in 308.  Granted, the trigger hasn't been tweaked (yet) and I was shooting left-over PMC crap, ball ammo.  I'm thinking of getting some of the Black-Hills blue box stuff.  Anyone have any experience with the blue box stuff in .223?  If so what weight boolet should I use (they have a few to choose from).  Any info would be greatly appreciated.  Also, I'll probably try out my "micro-sniper" project gun (CZ 452 varmint w/ Simmons <Japanese NOT Chi-com> 8-32X44) sometime in mid-October, which is probably the next time I'll get to to study for my comp exam :((.

Later Fellers,

Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, MD, - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 16:00:29 (ZULU) 


  I shoot a 6.5x284 and had it built to shoot in tactical matches. My  barrel is a Pac Nor super match 1-8 twist, 26"long. I use H-4831SC and push the 140s to a flat 3000fps.

  If your building a tactical rifle I see no need for a 30" barrel. I have had no trouble getting the velocity that I need out of the 26".

  The gun shoots extremly well and has just over 1200rds. through it. I had JR. bore scope it and he said it should go at least that many more if not more.

Pat <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 16:11:07 (ZULU) 


Paul asked about the 6.5 x .284. GREAT cartridge and gun. As Pat indicated you don't need a 30" tube to get 3,000 FPS. I have a 26" Hart tube on my Chandler gun and it shoots 140 grain Sierra's suberbly. Is it better than a .308? Proabably not, except in special cases. The .308 will do the job magnificently for LE guys and will cover 90%+ of the military missions. Plus is it's factory supported.

The 6.5, however, is gaining support. Black Hills Ammo makes factory stuff(DAMN GOOD) and Lapua is making brass, as is Hornady(Winchester?)

A number of powders work well. Pat and I both use Hogdon's H4831SC and are having great results. I'm getting 1/4 MOA groups at 600 using 11.25 MOA elevation. Windage is exactly half of that needed for a .308/175 Sierra.

Pay your money and take your chances. Heck, WHY NOT GET BOTH! It's been fun comparing them...


I realize there are some small yuppie protests(san fran...where else!), but don't know if it's against a war or gay's against the war/please don't take us. Kinda like the Million Mom March that in reality was extremely small. We call it the "Dozen Dyke Hike"...;-)

Oops, I'm being politically incorrect. PULLEEZ forgive me...NOT!

All for now folks.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett(By God), Oregon, US of A - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 16:37:17 (ZULU) 

If anyone from the FBI is monitoring this board for militia activity, go do something useful.  Walk over to whoever it is that is telling the media what we are learning about these guy's SOP and kick him dead in the ass.

Why does the public need to know about the box-cutters, ATMs, satellite phones, etc?  We could have used that intel to catch more of them.

That 'Spy buster' head-line bullshit should have died with J. Edgar Hoover.

Sheesh, 'em books and they just chew on the damn covers.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 17:40:20 (ZULU) 


>"Sheesh, 'em books and they just chew on the damn covers."<

Sounds like a friends dog... ran off after a 57 Buick, the Buick won!

Damn... I got so much good news about Lupitas, I just can't stand it... but I'm sworn to secrecy, so I can't tell... but all you'z bumz that have been sending me e-mails about your M3's for the last three years... your best wetdreams are about to come true in a few months :))))

Premier Reticles is also up to somfin very good, but I can't tell about that either.

Life is gettin' good!


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 18:04:48 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 18:13:07 (ZULU) 


Please define "few."

Semper Fi

Paul <>
USA - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 18:43:04 (ZULU) 


Maybe three-ish, or four-ish... I have seven prototypes that have to be checked, and to write new instructions... then they have to start making them.


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 20:05:22 (ZULU) 

The Central Asia coalition forming:

"Allah has answered our prayers; the sword of vengeance has reached America, and will strike again and again."

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 20:15:13 (ZULU) 

Guys, off for about a week to the New England Sniper Summit.  Me, on a jet plane.  Talk about "country come to town".  Hope nobody decides to bring a box cutter to a Glock fight. (Decided against the Sig Wes, the Glock holds more bullets and I don't shoot so good).  Besides, if the plane goes down, the Glock is city owned.  My son Colt will get the Sig. Yippi Ki Yay Osama !

Watch your sixes fellas,


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 20:41:59 (ZULU) 

edited out by Original Author

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 21:12:00 (ZULU) 

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 21:33:46 (ZULU) 

How about those Aussies, when their Gov. replied to questions whether they would commit troops to the US and the war on terrorism they replied " Absolutely they would send troops, you cannot be an 80% ally, you are either an ally or you are not! " Sounds like the only firm commitment of troop support so far. A lot of others are talking the talk but are not nearly as clear when commiting the use of their own military forces with us. I would like to see this enthusiasm from all our allies.


drmarc <>
Hillbilly, USA - Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 23:53:02 (ZULU) 

CDC, here's one back at ya, and it's good reading for all.

War Myths - What not to believe.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 00:41:12 (ZULU) 

There were a couple of questions on .223 bullet selection.  Kinda depends on rifling twist. 1-9 will stabilize the 69 gr SMK, not the 77 & 80 gr MK (according to Sierra).  The 1-9 twist usually will stabilize the Hornaday 75 gr HPBT match bullet, might stabilize the A-Max.  I tried the Hornaday match ammo with the HPBT and got .5 MOA at 200 yards with about 4.5 inches more drop than the 69 gr.  Not bad for first try with factory ammo.  Handloads with 69 gr SMK, 25.5 gr WW-748, Remington BR primer & cases did 3/4" at 200 yards.  Barrel is 26 inch Shilen.

WR Moore <>
VA, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 01:40:25 (ZULU) 

WR Moore...

I shoot the 75 gr A-Max in a .223 with a 9" twist, and no problems.

9" will work with the 77 and 80 Sierra also.

They don't recomend it in a 9" twist, because most guys are shooting AR-15s, and the short barrels won't give the 75 A-Maxs, and 77/80 SMKs enough velocity to get the spin rate up where it needs to be... but out of a 26" barrel, they will do fine.


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 01:47:12 (ZULU) 

Re 223. I used 75 amax for a while in a 26" 1-9 tist rifle,accurate, but not as flat for crows & foxes.Better for 300+ tgt work.

Dr Mark,proud to help, thats what friends are for.You find out who the good ones are when the shit lands on your head.Asfar as the folks I talk to are concerned we're in for the duration,if the pollies disagree they better start lookin for new jobs.

Heard dubya's speech.Been a while since I have been inpsired or impressed by a politician talkin on the radio but I'm afraid it happened today.Youz bumz think he will come through ok,good enough for me.



Gavan Willis <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 02:54:46 (ZULU) 

Sir Wes> I realize there are some small yuppie protests...

I have recently read a half dozen domestic accounts of people, companies, and organizations which have banned and/or rejected the display of American flags.  In fact there's a gentleman on Fox News Channel, right now, suggesting much the same to Bill O'Reilly.

I understand that there is a small yet significant number of Americans who, for one reason or another, are unhappy living under our political system, our economic system, our freedoms, our values, etc., and as a compassionate conservative, I feel their pain.  For lack of a better name, I will refer to these people as anti-America Americans.

I feel (because feeling is superior to thinking) it is unfair to these anti-America Americans to keep them trapped in an environment clearly at odds with their beloved ideologies.  I propose that we keep account of these anti-America Americans, as they expose their true anti-American colors during this tragedy, and take up a collection so that we may offer them all one-way tickets to become expatriates in the foreign social utopia of their choice.

In this way, anti-America expatriates will be able to live happier lives unmolested by America, and in turn Americans will live happier lives unmolested by anti-America Americans.

(sarcasm OFF)

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 03:32:50 (ZULU) 

Yep, ol' Dubya is going to do just fine.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 03:52:50 (ZULU) 

Regarding 6.5's: I went the other way with barrel length, and have gotten 2950ish with a 142 gr. SMK out of a 34" Krieger using a ridiculously small amount of Varget. This is in a 6.5/.308 1000 yd prone rifle. It would suck to lug it anywhere other than between yard lines, but wanted to make the point of what is possible.

Jim <>
PDX, Or, - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 03:58:18 (ZULU) 

'Lito- thanks for the information.  Any advantage to the Match Kings? Being able to get 0.5 MOA with factory was quite nice.

If I ever get to quit working 70+ hours a week(@#$%%^&^&* terrorists) maybe I can try out some loads.

WR Moore <>
VA, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 06:38:54 (ZULU) 


I am attending a school soon and they recommend knee and elbow pads.

Does any one have suggestions on good ones that stay on when you move?



TonyM <>
FL, US of A - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 10:13:02 (ZULU) 

WR Moore...

I like the V-Maxs... they expand (Big Time!), the Matchkings might as well be FMJs...


CatShooter <>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 10:18:19 (ZULU) 

Following the money and cooperation with the Europeans:

Civil defense (Get ready for a bloody nose):

More attacks possible:

Rooting bin Ladin out of Afghanistan (This one is fun):

Persian Gulf/Iraq:

Probable Iraq connection to bombing:

Remind your friends to watch for suspicious types doing things that don't seem quite right.  Post it to other boards.  That would have stopped Sept 11.

Now I get back to my real life job.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 12:06:40 (ZULU) 

On 223 bullets I loaded some 75 gr Hornady's the otherday. 25 grs of Varget (max charge) I got 2824 fps average velocity out of my Savage 10FP, it has a 1-9 twist, the groups were some what disappointing. Whith 69 gr Sierras and Varget powder I get 1/2 groups consistantly. With the  75's it seemed to have opened up to an inch. Gunna play with them some more before I reach a final discion on wheater I'm going to use them or not.


Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 15:34:37 (ZULU) 

Rifle Topic

.223 at Long Range. Let me open by saying I think the .223 is the most significant cartridge in the world today. Great Accuracy, lightweight portability and good barrel life. To attempt to use this cartridge beyond it's practical range is futile. I have no objections to experimentation to find out what is the longest practical range and make maximum use of it's versatility. However, at long ranges, Sniper Ranges 500 to 1000 yards it is much easier and more practical to use the .308 Nato. Why one would want to suffer the problems involved is beyond my comprehension. Bill Wylde and others have milked this cartridge which is my favorite (or at least the one I shoot the most)to it's maximum in all applicatons. This is a good entry and in my book the most practical surgical police sniping and tactical cartridge ever produced. But stay within it's Limits or it will let you down. For Long Range Military or Tactical applications you're on your own. I cannot endorse it.

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 15:35:05 (ZULU) 


Certainly no disagreement from this end.

Those of us initially involved with the .223 for LR shooting (beyond 600 yards) were mainly doing so because "issue" 5.56 ball ammunition became a part of the Canadian competition scene in the late 80's or early 90's.  Before the Canadian successes, there was little or no consideration of this cartrige for extended range.  The excellent 62 grain IVI C-77 ball changed all this.  Any military ammunition that came before the good IVI (prior to '87) was simply too innacurate to consider.  Yes, it passed certain penetration tests, etc., but first ya gotta hit something!

We were surprised to find that it worked very well to 800M, but many were afraid of it beyond that point.  In relationship to the 7.62 NATO ball in use at the time, 5.56 NATO ball required approximately 15% more correction.  If the shooter was savvy enough to handle the wind, it was easy enough to compete to 1K.

The introduction of good heavy bullets by Jimmie Knox and Sierra put the .223 on a competitive basis with the .308 (using the 155 Sierra) all the way to 1K.  At that point the .223 was about out of options.

If the use is serious, I want options!

Bill Wylde <>
SE, IL, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 17:05:29 (ZULU) 


HDR <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 17:37:56 (ZULU) 

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 17:57:29 (ZULU) 

Have any of you Guys ever seen a 22lr version of an AK47(?) blowback action, slightly scaled down??

I see from Slug Boys latest article that he has an Angle Cosine Indicator, too.(art nr7 other kit carried) this is a good piece of kit if you are in hilly/mountainouse country, shooting at angles up and down hill, easy to use, and it works well, I used mine a lot in Scotland and wouldn't want to be without it. any one else used one ? Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 17:57:30 (ZULU) 

Evening all,


read the article by Slugboy aswell, very interesting, and also noticed that besides the Angle Cosine Indicator he also packs a Slope Doper, don't these 2 have the same purpose?


Marco <>
NL - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 18:19:10 (ZULU) 

Mitchell Arms made .22 and .22 mag rifle copies of the M16 and the AK-47 rifles.  I had one of the M16 copies and it was a very fun and reliable.  I don't know who has any as they are no longer produced.  If you have any specific questions about it, shoot me an email and I'll see if I can remember anything.


BCR #226 <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 18:36:45 (ZULU) 

With all this .223 stuff on the page, let me toss this one out there.

Shooting my AR (DCM Service rifle)at 600 yds I'm getting some serious elevation deviances.  Minus 2 to plu 4-1/2 MOA from zero.  I'm suspecting worn gas rings, but don't haven't shot the AR enough to know the life expectancy of parts.  Maybe 3K rounds down the tube, as I haven't been able to shoot much this year.  Besides the gas rings, should I look at any other possibilities?



Caison <>
De, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 18:38:00 (ZULU) 

Good Evening Marco, yes they both have the same purpose,and both work. but IMHO, the ACI is the better of the two, reasons are:

1. easier to use.(less maths involved you just multiply the number on the guage by the measured range to get your hold over or range to adjust scope for)

2. attaches directly to sniper rifle, (you get the exact angle for the shot) and it is there where you want it , no fishing around in pockets

3.With slope doper. you need to be a certain distance above the ground, I mean, it is difficult to use in a firing position without presenting more of a target of your self, with the ACI you are behind your rifle and can read of the numbers just by moving your eyes.this cuts down unnessecary movement.

4. if your target moves up or down hill you can track it with your rifle and will see the ACI adjusting to the angle.

I have been making slope dopers out of ration boxes, bits of plastic and pencils and string for years, I was just about to stand at a lathe and turn out a design I had in my head when I saw the ACI on a web site, well for the price it wasn't worth me wasting my time making one my self, bought it straight away, haven't over or under shot any thing since.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 18:43:54 (ZULU) 


Last nights .308 session was pretty bad. My pet load of 175 gr. Sierra MK's, 44.0 gr. Varget, match prep'd brass, Federal 210M, and an OAL of 2.800" shot groups looking like improved cylinder! Rifle was my new Winch 70 Sporter/Varmint. the 1:12" twist should stabilize the bullets. Will try 168's and 155's, but it looks like my winter project will be free floating the barrel, glassing the action, and a super trigger job. Pooh!

Tim (Gizmo) and Kevin (kmaries) showed up and shot their M24's. I'd left my M40A1 at home. A mistake I won't make again. Got to play with the PVS-10 a bit. Great piece of gear, but then the last night vision scopes I played with were the PVS-2 and PVS-4 series. I'm impressed.

On the .223 thread. I love the cartridge and have shot it across the course for years with the Marines. Now I consider it a fun, but not "serious" cartridge. "Serious" means my .308's or 6.5 X .284. The .223 simply does not put the bullet weight needed on target and does not work well against intermediate barriers. MOST police don't use it for that reason alone, but go to the .308.

Bill Wylde is right, and he should know, that the .223 has come of age, but it's because of gamesmanship...less recoil, IMHO. NOT because the cartridge is superior. Folks just shoot it better because of the reduce recoil.

Stick with your .308, smile, be happy, and thank God you can live in a free country that allows our pursuits(unpaid political announcement).

Off to find my Powley Computer. They need a starting load for the ACGG custom raffle rifle! Tickets available soon!

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 18:48:18 (ZULU) 

Pakistan gets interesting.  They have 25 nuclear missles:

"May you live in interesting times."___Ancient Chinese curse.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 18:58:35 (ZULU) 

Wes, what you say reminds me of the "games" I've played like for example the old "NRA Hunter's Pistol" and "Rifle Sillouette" games of a few years ago. The dominant firestick always evolves as the lightest recoiling easiest to shoot minimum for the job. I remember the .22 Magnums that were used against my .44 Magnum at the Regional's.  Games always follow the same evolutionary path it seems.

They were perfectly legal but hardly comparable to the .44 magnum were a feller hunting "bear" for instance. I guess one should compare the race pistols against the carry guns in a discussion of such matters but I won't go there. OH reminds me what kind of cartridge will the Air Marshal service being looking for? Perhaps 22 mag. V-max. I saw some of those the other day. Less Passenger scare less penetration of metal in aircraft. Perhaps not a topic for this board. Just the thought hit me.

Bill Rogers <>
, , - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 20:34:38 (ZULU) 

Steve D,When I was trying amax's a while back I found they did better at 200 than 100.Aparently they sometimes dont settle down as soon as we would like.



Gavan Willis <>
- Friday, September 21, 2001, at 20:51:17 (ZULU) 


I noticed your question to Peter Lincoln regarding my carrying of a Slope doper and Cosine Angle Indicator.

The reason I have both is because I can fit the CAI to my telescopic sight for personal use and pass the Slope doper to other members of my Sniper Platoon to use if required.

The Slope doper can also be carried on recce's where the exposure of a Sniper rifle could give the game away. This then allows angles to be checked prior to moving into position prior to the Op.

If I'd had one of these during my Kosovo tour it would have saved a lot of time on the calculation's side when preparing the range cards for each of the positions taken up by my section during Ms Albrights visit.

Hope this explains the reason behind your question!

All the best Slugboy!

Slugboy <>
England - Friday, September 21, 2001, at 23:35:03 (ZULU) 


I accidentaly deleted your message.

Thanks for the info.


TonyM <>
FL, US of A - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 00:49:18 (ZULU) 


If your gas rings are worn, you'll be experiencing "short stroking" of the carrier assembly regardless of what range you're shooting at.

Make sure the ring gaps are staggered properly.  They should be at the 12, 4 and 8 o'clock positions.

Check for ring wear by inserting the bolt in the carrier.  Don't install the firing pin retaining pin or the bolt cam pin.  Hold the carrier vertically, bolt facing down.  If the bolt falls out, the rings are worn and need replacement.  Good rings will hold the bolt in place by friction.

You didn't mention if you were experiencing elevation problems at 200 and 300 yards.  What ammo are you using?

BTW, buy or download a copy of TM 9-1005-319-23&P (Unit and Direct Support Maintenance Manual).  If it isn't in here, you can't fix it.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 03:33:41 (ZULU) 

'Lito-had outstanding results with the Sierra 60 HP.  Used it for crows and grew to love the sight of floating feathers in the air.  Survivors still recognize my pickup and leave when they see it.  The BlitzKings aren't as explosive.

WR Moore <>
VA, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 03:54:01 (ZULU) 


Read this for a good laugh.........

Commentary by, Andrea Peyser

"America Bashing U.N. Should get lost............

Da' babe tells it like it is......((;

Click on the URL.....and go to this article

Dos Zapatos

Two Shoes <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 03:57:47 (ZULU) 

This is way better than 'World Series of Poker.'  Nobody comment on any of it.

"However, President George W Bush is aware that an ill-conceived, botched military attempt will be worse than no action at all."

Pakistan denies US use of ground facilities:

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 04:09:47 (ZULU) 


 Saw someone talking about one of my fav. bullits, which would be the Sierra 60gr Hp type pill. Great effects as mentioned, although the fox that was on the recieving end didnt appreciate it too much lil over 225 left a exit hole bigger than a softball and another shot took off a paw, completely. All this from the nice 223 with the ever popular varget with 25gr's, its a lil warm but no prob's with pressure.....take care and be safe all.

- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 05:12:52 (ZULU) 

My sympathy goes out to all of you in the U.S. and I hope that together (US and UK) we can achieve justice for those who perished and create a safer world for the future, BUT I now hope that those Americans that thought of the IRA and other republican terrorists as quaint, honourable 'Freedom Fighters' now see them for what they really are; murderers, gangsters and TERRORISTS just as much as those who committed the terrible acts in NY and Washington.  They too murder innocent men, women and children of both religions in the Province in the name of 'The Cause'; remember Omagh.  I hope that the US will back the UK and finally recognise the republican paramilitaries as 'terrorists', stop the flow of funds and extradite those who seek sanctuary in the US. I now see the IRA is helping to train their terrorist 'brothers' in Central America against YOU.  We have helped you in the past against your enemies (e.g Libya), now it is time you stood up and helped us against the enemies of freedom in Northern Ireland and Britain.

Britain is a democratic country (mostly) and the opportunity for change comes through the ballot box, not the bomb (though Blair is doing a good job of giving in).  Republicans are NOT tortured or beaten or oppressed or denied their Human Rights, they are entitled to everything anyone else in the UK is, we don't even have the death penalty for their crimes.  Yes, the UK has a tainted past, but so does America, that is history and there is little point in looking back. There is NO grounds to resort to violence in a modern, free western democracy like the UK, in order to force your will on the majority of the community.

It is time to join together against ALL our enemies.

Jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 10:01:36 (ZULU) 

Two Shoes...

Damn good read! (it's now in their archives... go to:     to see it).

I once thought that the UN had a function, preventing wars... but name me ONE war they have prevented?? It's the US troups that were in Europe for 55 (that's FIFTY FIVE) years that protected them, NOT the UN.

But now the UN positions are just a "Great posting" to give to pretty boys in the third world governments around the world... "The good life in NYC"!!... where was the UN when 2,000,000 africans were machetted to death, a few years back... why they were having cocktails on the upper east side, while their wives were stuffing their cars with clothes and shoes from the Fifth avenue stores, so they'd look fine when they went back to "their country" for some holiday.  Europe has a problem in Bosnia, who is camped out there... the "Shitty Americans" that everyone hates... well, I say just shut it down, get the hell out of America... we can use the 10 acres of land on the east river for better purposes.


Bill Moore...

You said "Crows"... my absolutly all time favorite target.  I'd rather shoot crows, than feral cats ;)  I'm old enuff to remember when you could hunt them 370 days a year, with blasting gelatin, if you wanted to... now we have short seasons in the friggin winter :((( For hollow points, have you ever tried the 52 gr SPEER HP... the hollow point is large enough to drink Rum out of.

You gotta get some camo netting for that pick-up truck.


Jon Beardsley...

>" it is time you stood up and helped us against the pomies of freedom in Northern Ireland and Britain."<

NO!!! Now is NOT the time for us to stand up against the Irish... we are busy right now, (in case you haven't read a newspaper or seen a tele)

This is NOT the right place, or the right time to bring up your issues and problems with the IRA in your country... it's not related to anything that's going on right now. We have our own problems to solve, and our own enemies to stand up to... we're not about to drop everything, and run over to England to solve your issues with that one... our last administration tried, to no avail... you guys don't want that one solved... the British have mishandled that one since day one, and brought it on themselves.

CatShooter <>
One bullet, one Crow!, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 12:52:13 (ZULU) 

John Beardsly.. Hear ! Hear!, I wanted to say that, but was thinking of how to word it, I remember seeing several thousand people at a NOR AID rally in Washington DC,I nearly goy beaten up when I voiced my oppinions to a Red haired, banner waving, irish accented,, person? now how would you Americans feel, seeing several thousands of people collecting money, to buy bombs and bullets at a Taliban/Bin Laden Aid rally in the UK ? think about it and imagine how it stuck in my throat.

But I'll tell you what, If we now want to get rid of all the governments world wide who do, or have supported terrorism, then we would have to include our very own, why, because if you are not actively doing all you can to stop all these terrorists, be they Irish, Afgani, Sudanese, Palistinian, German, British, American, take your pick, then you are supporting terrorism by in-action, and that in my mind is criminal.

I have a question I want answered: the UK government has been cutting the Intelligence budget, lower and lower, less and less spending.

Q. If you took all the money, spent on gathering,destroying and compensating for legaly owned pistols in the UK, the money spent on surveys aimed at proving or disproving what effect privatly owned firearms have on armed crime, the money spent needlessly on administering( creating, passing and enforcing) laws we don't need and a whole host of other wastes of money, aimed at winning votes by governments of the western world, If you took all that money and invested it in intelligence and prevention of terrorism, would it have helped prevent last weeks attack, If any one of us can answer, "it might have" then I suggest to you all, that the practises and priorities of all our Goverments need a damn good look at and a damn good shake up. Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 12:56:48 (ZULU) 

Cat shooter, you wrote

"This is probably NOT the right place, or the right time to bring up your issues and problems with the IRA in

your country... it's not related to anything that's going on right now. We have our own problems to solve,

and enemies to stand up to... the British have mishandled that one since day one, and brought it on


Maybe this isn't the right place to discuss international terrorism, but as we have been doing so for the last 12 days, then if some one has valid points, let them make em.

and according to Your President, issues and problems with the IRA, ain't just our problem any more !!

and if you believe that the NI problem isn't in any way related to " Your Own Problems" then you are very mistaken, or do you think that the IRA have never cross trained with any Radical Muslim terrorists, IRA have trained in Lybia, Afganistan Syria, Sudan. and If you think that Bin Ladens forces have never used IRA experience for training then you are not aware.

I agree that we have mishandled that one from the start, we should have shot all known terrorists on both sides, on day 1 and not pussy footed around trying to catch em red handed.

and to say that we brought it on our selves is the same as saying that you'all brought this attack on your selves, and don't think people aren't saying and thinking that, because thay are, (not me)

And you guys are asking the world for help right now with "your problem" but you don't want to help us with our problem, well thanks !!

are thousands of British/Irish lives over a 32 year period(you could go back further) worth less than 6000 American lives in 1 day ? and don't make the same mistake as your media, and forget about the other nationalities who lossed their lives last week.

Do you think that if Muslim terrorists wanted to attack, lets say the US embasy in London, that they wouldn't call upon their Irish mates for help ?

thanks for the show of solidarity... Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 13:27:29 (ZULU) 

Cat Shooter

My comments have everything to do with what is happening now.  The US expects the UK to lay down British servicemen's lives to help in bringing the NY and Washington terrorists to justice (which, I may add, I agree with whole heartedly), but has failed to even recognise the IRA as a terrorist organisation, despite the decades of pain and suffering caused by them in the UK.  N.Ireland is a very complex situation with both the catholic and protestant leaders at fault, but the fact remains the majority of people living in NI want to remain British and the IRA have no right to murder and maim in order to force it's beliefs on the rest of us.  How would a group of individuals from southern states be treated if they decided they wanted the return of the confederacy; and in order to acheive it, murdered and bombed.  I am sure they would be swiftly and ruthlessly hunted down, treated as murderers and possibly face the death penalty.

If Bush wants all out war against terrorism with the help of the UK, then I believe the fight should be against the enemies of both our nations not just those of the US.

Jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 13:32:28 (ZULU) 

 To compare the situation in Northern Ireland to what happened in New York is simplistic at ignore history is foolish at least....Past sin is not justification for pacifism.....if the IRA had been/was involved in the attack on America would England allow America to proceed there as we will against those responsible for Sept. 11.....invade/occupy/conduct hit and run in Northern Ireland....I think not. I do not condone the killing of the innocent by the IRA or anyone else....and yes, Sir, you are right we also have a past, some shameful behavior, actions to be proud of.....after all Washington did drive the redcoats back to England....While we welcome all who will join in the coming struggle, we cannot, nor should we enter your country to fight in Northern Ireland.

                              With Kind Regards.......

 And as a Son of Confederate veterans I resent your last remark.....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 13:48:06 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen:  You all bring up important points but we have a problem that clearly and undeniably supercedes all others.  Let's not dissipate our energy in tangental squabbles and focus on that.

I would suspect that the US attitude about the matters raised by our cousins has now changed and those concerns will be addressed as soon as is feasible.

Moves we are making and check out links relating to the Fundamentalists attempt to unify Muslims in Indonesia:;$sessionid$DMD0G4QAAASFVQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2001/09/21/wstee21.xml

The Telegraph is good at this.

French and Germans seem to know it is thier fight too:

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 13:53:00 (ZULU) 

.....And another thing....(dander up)....Let England stop dis-arming her own people before suggesting when and where and whom Americans should be fighting.....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 14:12:03 (ZULU) 

Mark Smith, If the IRA had any thing to do with the events of last week, then be my guest, send in the B52's if you want, but I doubt that the IRA would have a direct involvement in an attack on a country from where a large % of their support comes. but if you could trace involvement back far enough you would, I have no doubt find connections between Bin Laden and the IRA.

We do not expect nor are we asking you to come and fight in NI( although the IRA might, ask me about the Ex US marine shooting Brit troops from across the border with a Barret light 50) and we sincerely hope that fighting and suffering there will end. However we do expect you all to have a think and take a close look at fund raising events, company and individual donations that may be linked to terrorist associations in NI, money that you Americans donate to NOR AID, goes to buy weapons for Irish terrorists, where do they buy these? from organisations such as that of Bin Laden, what does he spend the money on, oh, training people to  fly airliners perhaps?? when are you guys going to stop wearing blinkers and realise that terrorism is a problem for every free man,woman and child and unless we all work together and eliminate ALL these organisations, there will always be a problem, wake up guys !!! we have been telling you this for years,

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 14:13:30 (ZULU) 

Peter Lincoln, and Jon Beardsley...

Both of you guys are all wet.

We haven't been discussing international terrorism here for 12 days... there is Africa, Russia, China, Spain, South America, Green "Eco-terrorism", and just about every place else... we have been discussing terrorism HERE in NYC for the past 12 days... this is our "Right now" issue.

This country has stopped tons and tons of weapons from getting to NI, and arrested thousands of the people involved... we spent tens of thousands of hours in our political system trying to solve this... we've probably worked harder at stopping the problems in NI, than "Mother England"...

England doesn't want it solved, just contained... the Irish can blow each other up and kill each other's children, just stay out of downtown London... why??? Because if the Irish keep fighting amoung themselves, then they can't unite and break free of Crown control... you guys have never wanted the problem fixed, just contained on Irish soil! England's attitude towards the Irish, is the same as our attitude towards the American Indians 200 years ago (which still hasn't changed)... except you guys can't admit you want the Irish to live on a reservation.

And yes... we did bring some of this on ourselves... I didn't hear anyone bitching when we attacked Afganistan with cruse missiles a few years back, when clinton was under the heat for bonkin' monica... we attacked Afganistan in an unprovoked action, and no one complained here, abroad (including England), nor in the UN... so I may be loyal to my country, but I'm not stupid!... and my attitude towards clinton, is the same as my attitude towards the Taliban... they are both the same, but we weren't sucessful in routing clinton (but at least we tried!!!).

However, there is a time and place for everything, and right now is not the time to be whining about the IRA... when England decides that they want the problem STOPPED, and not just contained, it is a fairly simple fix... but until then, we are busy.

As to us expecting England to help... you are obviously too young to remember the last time we came to "help" England with their "problems"... but if all "help" were put in piles on the table, England comes up very short... you still owe us, BIG TIME!!!

Frankly. I don't care if England helps in this one or not... as a country, they have become so emasculated, that I doubt if it'll make a difference. When you guys threw out Maggie Thatcher, you threw out your only "Balls" your government had, and replaced her with a long line of eunuchs...

... And that's more than I want to say on it.


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 14:25:18 (ZULU) 

...and another thing, gun control in the UK was and is (among other more sinister reasons) a mis-informed and lame attempt at combating armed crime. and guess what, a high % of armed crime, organised crime, in the UK is commited in order to raise funds for terrorist activities, lets see how you guys like having your freedoms cut short because of terrorism. guess what, it pisses you off and is even worse when corrupt polititians further increase the reachings of these controlls inorder to win i said wake up !!

and as a veteran of Northern Ireland, with a limp to prove it, and as a British gun owner, I resent a hell of a lot more than you do.

PS a number of guys emailed me asking where they could get this Angle Cosine Indicator, try here:

The Sniper Tools Design Company. 9132 Grundy Lane. Chatsworth, CA 91311-6353... phone  818.676.0280

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 14:30:07 (ZULU) 


We have discussed that cosine indicator on the Roster about eleventeen times... it's the first thing to break, when you drag your kit across the ground, and it's unreadable in poor light...

... it's another "Great idea" designed by someone who's never been there, never done it, and never got the teeshirt!


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 14:39:35 (ZULU) 

To borrow a term ....ear,ear, Crow Killer....As for your last post Peter,concening political opportunism, If we as Americans are to learn anything from Sept.11, let it NOT be to obsess over our security at the expense of our Liberty....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 14:53:54 (ZULU) 

Something like this lets a people's character show and The Brits will show this time.  The Brits have faced up for 2,000 years and the lion's children are GODDAMNED LIONS!


CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 14:54:58 (ZULU) 

Quit squabling,

I currently serve in HM Forces I have done for the last 21 years, I've spent over 6 years in NI, served in the Balkans and Africa.

A lot of problems in NI are due to our own mishandling of the situation in the early years, the IRA have been US funded and the US have also prevented IRA activities, you cannot blame the US for individuals who support their cause.

As for the .50 Barrett attacks, these guys where 100% Irish, associates of mine aprehended them and they were placed in jail (Have since been released, British justice?)

The US were able to confirm the Barretts sales that added greatly to the int gathering on who the operatives were. They were trained by an older Irish Sniper not the US.

Please lets focus on the Afghan problem, I for one along with many, many colleages are ready to join in the fight wether individuals feel we're needed or not, we will be there!

As for the Angle cosine Indicator, agreed it is not soldier proof, but it is 'An Aid' and if it gives me another option then I'll take it, as for 'people who haven't been their' I'll treat that with the contempt it deserves. So lets get back to the Focus, THE ENEMY not Snipe at one another, Nuff Said!

All the best Slugboy!

Slugboy <>
England - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 15:03:47 (ZULU) 




Drop the UK bashing, focus on the tasks, at hand and giving support there.


 Other Pete (Pete L.)& Slugboy),

 I had the honor of hearing Gee Dubyahs Daddy as Veep give a speech on the subject at my "Alma Whasit Mater" during a "Pyscho Dynamics of Terrorism" course:

 Simplified Analysis - The dots are there, its just a matter of connecting them with the same colored pens.





BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 15:08:10 (ZULU) 


Thanks.  I didn't seem to have any trouble at 200 & 300.  Nice round groups at both, except 1 called shot at 300.  No short-stroking during rapids, but occasionally I have failure to lock the bolt back during slow fire, especially aff hand.  Had just pulled the carrier assy apart for cleaning as there was more carbon build-up than I care for, and reassembled/lubed before the match.  Ensured the rings were promerly (mis)aligned.

Have had to switch ammo recently.  I've used handloads and BHA mainly. I've just moved and have run out of the BHA with 73gr Bergers (which shot GREAT at 300) and I didn't have my reloading gear until the night before I left for Quantico, so I couldn't get as much reloading in as I aould have liked.  Finally got a new issue of BHA, this one loaded w/ Sierra 77 unmollied. If I'm lucky this might hold the 9-ring at 300.  On a whim I bought some stuff Champions Choice sells, loaded w/ 77mollied and it will hold a very tight 10 ring at 300.  I haven't had time to do any serious testing with it though.  At 600 Ive had the elevation problems with both handloads (24.5 Varget, Virgin Win, match prepped brass, Rem 7-1/2 primers, Mollied 80 SMK set .010 off the lands)and the stuff from CC (I have run out of my 600 yd handload, so I used the stuff from CC last time.)

I should be shooting mid-high 190's at 600, and a low 170 really sucks.

I have the tech manual somewhere, but most of my stuff is still boxed up from the move.  Tuesday I finally get to start moving into my new house and can unpack everything and get organized again (that is as soon as I have time for it now.  Past 2 weeks = over 160 hours at work, with little hope of let-up in sight).  Sure will be nice to get to a range again and try and figure things out.

Any other things to check for looseness, rubbing, binding etc that may cause the elevation problems?

Thanks again,


Caison <>
De, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 15:16:17 (ZULU) 

CS, If I'm wet, then it is with the blood spilled by Irish Terrorism.

now that International Terrorism has reached your shores, you are shouting, oh, the sleeping giant has awoken, about bloody time.

Don't stick the people of Britain all under one banner, The failings of our Political parties are a shame to us all, and we have lived by the ideals of a limited, politicaly active few for far to long, and voting for one party or another has had more to do with selfishness than with what is moraly and economicaly good for the Country.

I do not for one support our Government, and I haven't since Maggy T was voted out of office by left wing limp lame hand out grabbing liberals.

Americas attack on afganistan had more to do with drawing attention away from Clintons sexual activities, than it did with terrorism.

I agree, NI could be simply fixed, I always thought so. but political correctness played a part and who would have supported drastic measures (untill maybe now)

What took you all so long in WW2, we came to the support of Poland, Holland Belgium and France, straight away, despite being unprepared to do so( polititians fault, ignoring the signs and facts as usual) what kept you any way? or did it take the Japs to "awaken the Sleeping Giant"? I figure that you guys and us guys owe each other a hell of a lot, and the countries of Europe and the Free world owe us both some.

You are 100% correct about the UK at the moment, post Maggy T England sucks(exept for the fish and chips and the Hunting) which is why I choose not to live there any more. Pete.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 15:40:12 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen; When GW said he was going against terrorism in the whole world I assumed he meant all terrorism. He also said and made a big point of the fact that it would take a lot of time. NI and American Terrorists masking themselves as Militias (hiding under disguises as armies of the people and perverting the real meaning of the real Contitutional American Militia) not to mention Nazi, KKK leftover extremists groups and the like,  that have already caused hell and havoc over here (as in Oklahoma City bombing). As someone said we have been active in locating and preventing terrorism in NI but to my knowledge we have never been asked to go in that country and police. I doubt that will EVER happen now or in the future. I'm sure in my own mind that any request for information or intellegence against these extremists would be adhered to by our FBI CIA and other agencies. I am sure this country has been used for staging weapons procurement and hideouts for IRA terrorists but it was not at the knowledge of our Government. There is no grassroots support among Americans Patriots. That is not to say there is no support by others in the country operating illegally. Like the Catman says, we are a bit busy on our own at this particular moment. We have a saying here in this country, "the wheel that squeaks loudest gets the grease first". There is another saying that might apply to the British Govt.'s handling of NI.  It comes from a comic strip back in the 70's I believe it goes something like this. Pogo to his Swamp Army  "Soldiers! We has met the enemy and he is us!"

Please forgive our impatience with your Govt. who seems to be unable to disarm anyone but their own citizens! Terrorism doesn't seem to care except that it would have been a real consideration in their plans had the travelers on board those aircraft been armed.

I don't want to sound hokey here but, my God sports,, lets all get aboard the same troop train here and vanquish the foe before we attack ourselves~!

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 15:40:15 (ZULU) 

Hey Guys, read between the lines we agree on 90% of matters, hope no one took any thing I said personaly.good discussion any how.

American impacience with our Government is fine by me, I'm impacient to !! how do you spell impatcience ??

Slug boy, I never said the Guy was American, and as far as I know any one can join the American forces, the intel we had at the time was that he/they where ex US marine,last I heard on the matter was to that effect any way.glad they got busted,maybe they are reading this now if they are out.

well glad we are back to rifles, ammo and associated equipment.

ACI, well nothing is squaddie proof, I have had mine apart and relpaced some bits  I can see the figures in the dark, but they can't be seen more than, 3 feet away, but to be honest, if you can see to read off a slope doper, you can read the ACI also, it has also proved to be robust, if your worried about loosing it, it dropping of the rifle, carry it in a pocket, put it in place when you need it. I would definately recomend carrying both types of "angle helper" if doing things for real.And the Leica LRF is better than the Nikon.

What would be the possibilities of getting a device like the ACI built internaly in a scope, now thats a good idea, regards to you all. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 16:05:16 (ZULU) 


Well... It am't my fault... Heeee started it ;)))

And anyway, I wasn't bashing the English peoples... just the idea that we have to stop what we're doing and run over there and fix a centuries old problem... and their limp wristed government (which is no worse than the limp wristed/limp dicked one we had for the last 8 years, and just got rid of).

... and, except for the fact that their women are cold, and their beer is warm (and they BOIL a good steak for 2 hours), I have liked every limey I ever met, and would be the first to by an Englishman a cold one (the operative words being "Cold One"! HA! ;))... probably kill the poor duck (Double HA!!).

AND... what 'yote Bait said!


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 16:40:42 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the support Pete, very eloquently put.

Just emailed you regarding  an address for the slope device, THEN read your message about the web address, sorry to have hassled you.

Interesting can of worms I opened up there guys. Last point; I never meant to imply the US should become involved directly in NI, just recognise the fact the IRA are nothing more than low life, terrorist scum, stick-em on your list of terror groups and crack down on money and aid that pours from their US supporters.  All groups that terrorise free nations are our common enemy.  There actions serve to endanger the democratic process held dear by the western world.  Our enemy is your enemy and vice versa.

Cat Shooter, give us a hug and lets face terrorism together in all its forms.  The b@stards all live off each others expertise, intelligence and contacts.

jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 17:05:42 (ZULU) 

Terrorism's war gets my blood going gentlemen. For the past few years in this country we have often been divided by internal/and international  terrorism and fear of it.  There were patriots very concerned that their own agencies were being prepared to be used as terrorists . Our agencies in turn reviewed these patriots as possible terrorists (eg WACO). Grand and grave mistakes were made! Our own agencies have been hampered by distrust and suspicion and were unable to properly pursue their jobs on account of it. Then there were the real terrorists both home and abroad. It's time for a real war on these people and this way of thinking here at home. Some of the small armed patriots have been viewed with suspicion and who could blame anyone when there were real terrorists mixed in posing as real patriots. My message for Americans is be sure you know your local terrorist and be sure what he really stands for! Me and others I know are guilty of lack of knowledge and conclusion leaping. We need to be careful that we don't identify the wrong spook!  Our govt. needs to also be mindful of the distortions also. The board of SC in my past experience has tried to keep these distortions from affecting the participating members and posters by censoring content herein. This has not always worked. Some have suffered I'm told. They should be cited for their courage in being here at all. It should be understood by all concerned that this board is a reflection of wide range of opinions and not every post is a consensus of opinion by someone who pays for bill board space. I just want to thank the board of SC for their tolerance.

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 17:14:35 (ZULU) 

Hey catshooter, if you think our women are cold you should try a German one, Brrrrrr, I used to call my exwife "fridge" the beer is only warm in the South, but IMHO the south of England is populated by Arabs and Froggies. the fish n chips taste crap there too.The reason we Fry !! steak so long is to kill all the mad cow bacteria, now in Southern England the eat the stuff half raw, but statisticaly you will see that all cases of CJD, have come from the south (I will probably get attacked for that one) where as us good lads from up north, don't eat a steak 'till we have shot it with a silver bullet, driven a stake through it and fried it for 2 hours, and we don't care if our beer is cold, or warm as long as we get pissed on it.. (but after 11 years in the Fatherland, I prefer beer cold)

Blair=Clinton without the viagra and with a small hot potatoe in the mouth to get the accent right..

and I can remmber eating Rook pie, they are a sort of crow,, Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 17:16:24 (ZULU) 

Yahoo reports:  "In Karachi, Pakistan's largest city, four people were killed Friday during protests by hardline Islamic groups, but a feared countryside wave of public protests did not fully materialise, giving the military regime breathing space."


And did jon want to hug leetle Pablo?  jon, he's too damned ugly, but he has a sister.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 17:33:34 (ZULU) 

Peter Lincoln, and Jon Beardsley...

I think we are on the same sides of it all... maybe what Jon said just came across wrong, at the wrong time... I spent a day last week patchin' up guys eyes, and havein' them tell me to "Hurry the fuck up", so they could get back at it... we're bleeding over here... and I guess it's a bad time.

I'm not sure about the group "hug", but I'll buy you'z ugly bums a "cold one" anytime your in my "hood"!!

If bad things can bring good, then maybe this horror can at least bring the civilized world together on the terrorist thing, and rout the bastards out of their stinking rat holes, whether they are in Afganistan, Ireland, or anywhere else... and maybe in a year or two, the world will know who stands on the side of civilization, and who is still in the dark ages.

And again... what 'yote Bate said.

CDC... my sister?  You interested in my sister??? She has a BIG box of cookies in her green '74 Ford Pinto Wagon, and would LOVE to come visit you (or anybody else that would put up with her!)



CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 17:54:16 (ZULU) 

Taliban weakness (READ THIS!):

It appears that we didn't incite civil war in Pakistan and The Taliban is politically and militarily weak.

IF BOTH ARE TRUE,IF BOTH ARE TRUE,IF BOTH ARE TRUE; "Turn out the light, the party's over" and its now a  matter of hunting ben Ladin down and shooting him.

Now, where are the rest of them?

Talley Ho!

CDC' <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 18:20:45 (ZULU) 

CS, I understood what Jon said he wasn't having a go, just stated the facts as most of us Brits (the ones that give a shit any way)see them, I think maybe you misunderstood him a little and you weren't the only one, judging by the emails I got. We understand, well, how it is for you guys right now, although we never had to suffer on this magnitude and I can honestly say that I do not know of any other European who is more pro-american than my self, and don't forget while your troops where keeping the commies out of here for the last 50 years, so where ours,although some europeans seem to have forgotten this and let any bugger in.

and should I ever get back over to the states, which I fully intend to do, I hope you will have a beer ready for me, and same goes if you get over here.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 18:26:54 (ZULU) 

 WHAT'S THIS!!!!!!!!......I go away for a few hours to cut some firewood and everyone's all "touchy-feely".....I guess it'll be no time til 'Lito will be wearing a derby, sitting in the parlor with a spot of tea, stroking a big cat in his lap......and Peter will be watching a John Wayne marathon over a "cold Budweiser" and eating fried catfish....oh well, glad to see everyone's getting along who's hunted elk in the Bighorns of Wyoming...e-mail with info if that suits you...


Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 20:18:39 (ZULU) 


>"I go away for a few hours to cut some firewood and everyone's all "touchy-feely".....I guess it'll be no time til 'Lito will be wearing a Bolo, sitting in the parlor with a spot of tea, stroking a big cat in his lap"<

I wouldn't say "touchie feelie"... 'member, "No hugs", and it's more like wearing a pair of "Sand & Spinache" jeans, sittin' at the brew dump, with a long neck Coors... and that remark about a Cat" in my lap... HA!, not unless it has two long legs, and a pair of Daisy Dukes on ;))... if it's covered in fur, where's my riffle!


CatShooter <>
- Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 21:00:10 (ZULU) 

I knew this would happen. Catshooter you're way out of line here.

Take your cat back in your own lap and get your hand off my knee!

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 21:37:20 (ZULU) 

Back from vacation. Really sucked. Black cloud hanging over every thing I did and most everyone there. Had one hell of a memorial Thursday morning at one of the clubs. Raised over $4,000 for the NYFD in just under two hours.

Thought about finding a Marine recruiter to to see if they would take a 47 year old fart with bad knees and a pissed off attitude. Didn't want to get laughed at.

Will take a week to catch up to the roster.

Worn out, locked and loaded. Bolt out!

Attention, Bill 'don't know your last name' that stopped by Ducks and asked about the Storm Mountain T-Shirt and the site. Email me, didn't get a chance to talk.

Also, we need a T-shirt printed up with a cross hair on Bin Laden's forehead.

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 21:43:17 (ZULU) 

Howdy Hogs - been busy taking care of the Major. She's healing for now...Here's the final list of damage - after several trips to Bethesda: broken collar bone, broken shoulder blade, 3 broken ribs, partially collapsed lung, minor concussion, shattered wrist (now has a pin in it). As ya'll might imagine - she's quite sore - but still aware and able to be cranky - so thank God for that.

Other topics:

1. Here's a motivating ( for Gyrenes ) remark from David Letterman - a few days ago:

"I have three new heroes now. They are New York's

bravest,  the firefighters, New York's finest, the cops and the United States Marine Corps because, as you know, before this thing is finished, it will be the Marine Corps that goes in and settles the score."

2. Range time is gonna be about nada for awhile... the home chore support is mainly me.

Talk to ya'll later,

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 21:52:02 (ZULU) 


glad she's survivable... sell the horse, and get her a Harley Davidson motor-cicle... you won't have to clean the stalls anymore ;))

... and 'yote Bate, check your neighbors... that ain't my hand on your knee


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 22:06:13 (ZULU),8599,175951,00.html

If you ain't got enough to worry about.

You're right. It was my Labrador Sorry Lito'

Bolt, we're helpless and hopeless. Oh to be young again. I'd ride shotgun on one of those airplanes but they don't even want me for that I guess. But there's 25 million for rewards on people connected.

May a little bounty hunting going to break out all over.

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 22:58:13 (ZULU) 


No disparaging remarks about bolo ties.

When I retired, all neckties EXCEPT bolos went to Goodwill. Even wear 'em to weddings and funerals. Used to wear 'em to work in corporate America, too.

Wife had one custom-made by an Indian silversmith for me for last anniversary. Great big silver disk with a mildot reticle in black.

Sure beats a Jerry Garcia or Bill Blass model.

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2001, at 23:27:06 (ZULU)

Lito, its been my experience that if I can put rum in something I can drink from it.20mm shell,womans shoe (that was a bad one)baked bean can(unwashed).

CDC, can you check that link you posted before ref Indonesia fundamentals unifying folks please.i couldnt find any ref to the story on the page I found.I am a bit worried about that bunch,they seem to want the U.S govt to buy their support in the upcoming events.I would expect the U.S to tell them in or out, no correspondance will be entered into.



Gavan Willis <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 00:25:21 (ZULU) 


Squirt a couple of drops of CLP into your bolt catch mechanism and work the latch a few times.  You may have some grit in there that needs to be flushed out.

I can't think of anything else to check on the rifle so.....

Do you change ANYTHING in your prone position between 300 and 600 yards?  They should be the same.  Think about it.  You may find you're doing something just a little bit different at 600 that may affect the POI.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 00:38:45 (ZULU) 

Ken- My God man- shoot that glue stick! I had a stubborn old horse that wouldn't let women ride him. Threw three out of four that got on him. Thank goodness none were hurt. I hope the Maj. is resting well and takes it easy.

 Brass and bullets arrived today- the futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!


Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 01:00:57 (ZULU) 

IRA Support -

We had a case of a local south Florida gun dealer selling crates of weapons to three IRA front men several years ago.  They came here with wads of cash and got some fairly sophisticated stuff, too.  This guy (the dealer) was just as much a terrorist as the IRA operatives were.  All got busted by the FBI.

Bill Rogers -

American Terrorists, Militias, Constitutional American Militia, American Patriots, Armed Patriots, Real Patriots....

How do you define who is who?  You can contact me offline.  I don't want to tie up the bandwidth, unless you don't mind.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 01:17:46 (ZULU) 

Hey guys...

lookie here:

use "ESC" key when it finishes, to get back the screen...

If your eyes are dry at the end of it, you're a tougher man than I...


"Never give up... Never, ever, ever give up"

                                      ... Winston Churchill


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 01:23:37 (ZULU) 

Jon, I take offense when you think the majority of Americans support Paddy and the rest of the bombing Mick bastards (both Republican and Unionist) and NOR AID.  A terrorist is a freaking terrorist, whether he drives a jumbo into the Twin Towers or plants a satchel charge in Harrods.

You've got your internal problems, and we've got ours.  I don't think all the people of Ireland should be tarred with the same brush, either.

I was in Hereford in May, 1994, and was shocked with everyone else when we heard of the Chinook that went down (with years of collective CT experience) into the Firth of Forth.  I have enough friends in HM Forces to know who hides in the shadows.

I trust Blair as far as I can throw his ass, but I have full confidence in my mates who wear the Jack.  No, I didn't expect to "Use" British forces or bases at all.  And I still don't "expect the UK to lay down British troops' lives".

Bush SAID "ALL" terrorism.

In memory of those British squaddies killed with the Barrett:

August 1992, Private Paul Turner, 18.

November 1992, Alan Corbett, 25, Royal Ulster Constabulary.

March 1993, John Reid, 30, Royal Ulster Constabulary; Lance-Corporal Alan Dickson, 26.

June 1993, Private John Randall, 19, Lance-Corporal Kevin Pullin.

Two others, 1994.

February 1997, Lance-Bombardier Stephen Restorick

What, you think all of us over here didn't know you were at war?

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, NC, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 01:51:44 (ZULU) 

Couple things:

First off, Ken, glad to hear the Major is gonna be around to keep your but in line. I don't know where ya live but if it's reasonable to drive there and you need something ask. I'll be inplace straight away.

Second, I am just arrived back from a 5 day pitch at the NYC crime scene patching up the brothers there. I am without the capacity to truely comprehend the magnitude and scope of the event. When not irrigating eyes and so forth I made the effort to just get near the site as possible and soak it in. The only word I can come up with is SURREAL.

From the moment I arrived on the West Side Hwy, at staging I was floored by the massive relief effort underway. Gentelmen the TV does not on any level deliver the true sense of what is there.

As for me personnally two of my Fire academy fellows are confirmed dead. Mike Boyle of Eng. 33 and Andy Fredricks of Squad 18. Both leave wives and Andy leaves (in addition) 4 daughters. I am ready to vomit from the thought. Also, almost every member of Rescue 3 in South Bronx with whom my department has a mutual assistance and training agreement with has perished.

Lastly my F.A.S.Team is scheduled for another tour on the 27th. You will pardon me if I hope that it is not at the rubble pile again.

If any of you are going to be in the area for a releif effort let me know. My family (those who live there still) will gladly meet you and provide whatever comforts you need. Hell my sister is a fabulous cook and she ain't hard to look at.

Man am I sick.

Semper Primus!


Mark <>
Upstate, NY, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 01:59:03 (ZULU) 


All,please forgive this "Off Topic", meandering....

Moe's question/s to Mr. Bill....I have often given this much thought, and consideration also.

"How do you define who is who?".........

"American Terrorist's".

As a member of THE Militia, an American Patriot, and an Armed Patriot, and a member of THE Constitutional American Militia, allow me to "Define', some of the traits, I tend to exhibit.........

Maybe this will "Mark", me as a potential Terrorist.............

As a Patriot.......I weep when the Star Spangled Banner is sung.

I can't even sing America the Beautiful, without choking up.

 I tear up, when the "Pledge of Allegiance" is voiced aloud.

 I weep, when I see the cross's in Arlington Memorial Cemetery.

I weep, when I see a Vietnam Vet, at the Wall..........weeping over a fallen friend........

I guess, if this earmarks me as a subversive, and a threat to the "State", so be it, and may  God help us, because if "SO",  we are well past our own remedies............

Two Shoes

Two Shoes <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 02:14:08 (ZULU) 

Hey everyone,

I just switched to 175 grn Black Hills (non-moly), Does anyone know where I can acquire 100-1000 yd. adjustment tables, I use a Robar SR90 with a 24 inch schnider barrel.

I have seen a lot of 168 grn tables but no 175 grn.


Nicholas Young <>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 02:14:43 (ZULU) 

Nicholas Young...

If you know your muzzle velocity, I'll run you your own tables.


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 03:29:57 (ZULU) 

Moe your question is worth some thought online if it doesn't touch off an undesirable thread I believe that most Patriots would pass Two Shoes' test.

There are a couple of things to look for.

IF they are armed with rifles, wear camo and salute the flag...and look worried while quoting the constituion or have a copy in their pocket they might be just patriots.

If they mess with explosives (give or take a grenade or two) or stock pile them they are likely terrorists.

Hope this is accurate enough for your purposes.

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 03:30:35 (ZULU) 

I'd bet that whoever was pulling the strings for this stunt knew he had screwed the pooch from day one.  It was supposed to be much bigger.  They had 20 to 30 teams but only three got through.  Whoever sent them had thier eye on something real important.

A couple of months ago someone posted a link here that indicated that Iraq had moved more armor south than they had in 1991.

Call me suspicious but that looks to me like Sadaam attemped a coup de main, a fait accompli and a pait au chocalait for dessert.  That effort would have to be aimed at the Saudi and Kwaiti oilfields.

Everyone short of my dog knows that The United States is moving large, noisy, dangerous machinery into The Persian Gulf.

By the way, my early call was almost certainly right; ben Ladin looks like he was Sadaam's agent.  He supplies the martyrs, is the designated fall guy and has fun.  Willie has left the building and Carville is out of a job.  Spin doesn't do it any more and Bush isn't settling for fall guys.  Ben Ladin's a tricky sucker but he would still be a poor risk for life insurance.  He dragged dead Rangers through the streets of Mogidishu and some of the boys after him are Sinister in their own right.

The Taliban looks like it enjoys limited support within Afghanistan, though thier support in Pakistan looks pretty strong.  That puts us in a completely different situation from the Sovs.  They hit a strong unified people and tried to hold territory.  It looks like we're hitting, oh, a brigade of hardcore fruitcakes who are widely hated.  Plus we're real easy to satisfy.  We don't want to secure lines of communication for an extended period.  All we want is smoldering corpses.

So far we've avoided touching off a tinder box in Pakistan.  We aren't provoking them by putting troops on their ground.  All we seem to be getting is flyover privliges and intelligence.  So there will be no 'Ft. Apache'.

Afghanistan looks pretty good for the good guys, but surprises do happen.  But all I know is what I read in the papers.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 04:00:41 (ZULU) 

 Thanks for the link 'Lito.....Thanks to all who posted here today.....I, as many others have been struggling to come to terms with recent events....those of you here today have helped more than you know....It is indeed a testament to this site that I have had the privilege to make accquaintance with many here...I am encouraged by the fact that I am not alone in my Patriotism and am, in deed and personal sacrifice, outdone by many here....I am thankful for the way my fellow Americans have risen to meet the challenge head on. I am thankful for my President. And I have no doubt the vile foe has not yet realized what he has set into motion. We are united, we are strong,and we will prevail, so help us God.......

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 04:37:20 (ZULU) 

"...and look worried while quoting the constituion..."

Because their audience has that glazed look in their eyes?  :-)


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 05:41:14 (ZULU) 

'Lito-very hard to drive the pickup when it's covered with camo net.  The ditches are right deep around here.  Season??? The wife raises horses and between West Nile Disease and EPM (don't ask if you don't know),if they're in range and there's a backstop, they're floating feathers.  The local wardens wife has horses too.

Gun Control- this started in England as the "solution to the Irish problem".  Given the rousing success since 1917, you'd a thought even politicians would have noticed it doesn't work.

Couple of weeks ago I saw a bald eagle in a neighbors field from about 50 feet away.  VERY impressive bird from close up.  The thing that really impressed me was what a massive thing the beak was. Wonder if there's some message there?  (Yes,I know the talons are the major weapon.)

WR Moore <>
VA, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 06:24:03 (ZULU) 


I never meant to cause offence, nor do I think that MOST Americans support Paddy, nor do I tar ALL Irish with the same brush. I know quite a few Irish from both sides of the community and they are normal people who just want to live normal lives without the threat of violence. THAT is why these people are terrorists and not freedom fighters. It is just that over here it looks kind of funny when terroist support groups are free to raise funds and we see the likes of Jerry Adams invited into the White House like some VIP.  I find that offensive.

I know how closely our services work together, and that behind the scenes you are helping, but on the public front your government does nothing to condemn them.  To me they should be treated the same as any other terror group.  I realise that there are a lot of Irish-Americans and it may not be politically bright to piss them off by condeming their 'heros' (again, I am not dumb enough to believe ALL Irish Americans support them).

As for our government's actions, well, what can I say.  Murderers and thugs let out of prison, conscessions left, right, and centre; the message to the rest of the world is terrorism may eventually get you what you want, if you stick at it long enough.

What I was trying to say was, now the whole World can see the true horror of terrorism those who have chosen to support, whether posotively or through their lack of condemnation, will join the fight against ALL forms of terrorism, and that means finally recognising Irish paramiliteries for what they are (note, I meant those on both sides of the divide).

As I and others said yesterday.  The WTC tradgedy is NOT only your problem and an internal matter, it is a problem for the whole free world.  Nor are Irish terrorist only OUR problem, they work with other terror groups around the planet (IRA members training Columbian drug cartels in their black arts, for example).

My comments were a call for future solidarity, not a critisism of the American people, and I am truely, truely sorry if they were misinterpreted.

By the way, the chinook that went down hit the Mull of Kintyre.

Nuff said.

Back to shooting.  I am having my .300 WM re-barreled and was given the choice of a muzzle brake.  I did not want one then at first, but as I was considering the possibility of using a nightvision scope in the future for predator control I came across the problem that all the NVs I looked at have a short eye releif.  .300 recoil combined with short eye relief = sore face.  Any ideas of how to get around the relief problem or should I go with the brake?  What do you think of brakes?

Any replies to my query please send to my e-mail as I am going away for a week as from now.

jon Beardsley <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 10:59:03 (ZULU) 

Would this work?  I have begun to notice that it is a pain in the ass trying to get the reticle precisely level while mounting my scope and everytime I think it looks good, I come back a while later and it seems off.

I'm using the Mounting Solutions Plus one-piece Base and Rings.  If I where to level the gun on the mount then place the scope in the rings and place the level on the elevation turret, would this work?  I have the Leupold M1 LR.  I'm just not sure if thats a good way to do it, not being sure if the turret would be level compared to the actual center of the scope.

Another thing, I noticed that while tightening the screws the reticle also seems to go off slightly,,,any what around this?

Thanks guys!

Derek <>
Randolph, Ma, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 12:06:15 (ZULU) 

WR Moore...

>"'Lito-very hard to drive the pickup when it's covered with camo net. The ditches are right deep around here."<

You look THROUGH THE HOLES IN THE NET!!! Goofy!! ;)

>"Season??? The wife raises horses and between West Nile Disease and EPM (

t ask if you don't know), if they're in range and there's a backstop, they're floating feathers."<

I don't know what EPM is, but my area was the first hit with West Nile Encephalitis Disease.  I live next to a park, and people would leave bits of sandwiches around... the next morning, the Crows would gather and wake me up ;).  I have a nice .177 cal Match grade air-rifle, with scope, and would usually get 2 or 3 before the rest left.

NO MORE!... if a dead Crow is found in my state, and the guys in the white biological hazard decontamination suits come... complete with face masks, spray equipment, and the rest of the O-fish-shul junk they have in their truck... I don't need a visit from them... they might look in my basement.

As to seasons... here in konnecticut, we have a short season in the winter.  It's amazing how confusing the seasons can get, and how warm it can get in the winter... sometimes almost up in the 90's.

... we also have one of those clauses about "Depredation of crops and wildlife"... well damn man, I'm always seeing them rascally Crows trying to kill the babies of some endangered species, like the "Three Toe'd Etheopian Black and White Striped Field Mouse"...

... gotta save them puppies.

It's purely hell, but somebody has to make sacrifices for them mouses!!




Take a piece of thin cord, with a weight on it... tie it up so it hangs free.  Set the rifle in sand bags so that it is verticle.

Set the x-hairs to be parallel with the cord.

When you tighten the screws, turn one a little, then turn one on the opposit side a little, then on one the other ring, then one on the opposit side of the other ring, and work your way around... it's like torquing a cylinder head.

Once this is done, the biggest problem is most people can't tell when the x-hairs are verticle when shooting the damn thing... at long range, the tilt of the rifle (called "CANT"), will put you off by feet.

People will suconsciously line up the hairs to any straight line in the field of view... this is no problem if you are shooting at formal targets, ing use the frames make a natural reference... but in the field, you can be 10 degrees off, and swear that you are dead vertical... and at 1000 yds, 10 degrees will put the bullet five or 10 feet off to one side.

A lotta guys use bubble levels on the rifles, to keep the guns plumb while shooting at long range.


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 13:24:51 (ZULU) 

Derek, try getting a scope leveler, it slots in the action and has a verticle line with which you line up the reticle, B-Square make one, I think Brownells have one too, you need to tighten down a little at a time alterately, like you would torque down a cylinder head, and keep checking the reticle against the leveler, some rings let yopu do this easier than others, Badger are the easiest I have come across, EAW can be a pain because they are not true half rings, leupold are ok, keep trying you'll get it done.

Mark Smith, how did you  know I like catfish and Budweiser? or is it Anhauser Busch these days?, Micholob, Coors, Labatts, Ill sup em all, I remember going into the Wainwright Hotel, (wainwright Alta Canada) with my oppos and ordering a large beer at the bar, they wouldn't serve us at the bar so we sat down at a table, and we all ordered a pitcher each and drank out of the pitcher, the locals shook their heads and had a knowing look on their faces, oh the good ole days !!

Well it was Pfungstadter beer last night, and my head still hurts, I kinda missed out on the catfish though ... regards Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 13:35:25 (ZULU) 

Brits say they found ben Ladin:

We put enough $$$$ on his head that some of the hard-core faithful may decide to skip the early trip to Paradise and settle into a nice Mansion in The Bahamas instead.

It doesn't look like they had any big back up plan.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 13:58:00 (ZULU) 

CDC; right on.

Jon; 300 Magnum is really too large for NV. I'm sure there are some that might handle the eye relief etc. but you really need a smaller caliber'. I would not recommend larger than 22-250. Unless your predators are very large you will be better served with a smaller caliber. I don't know if you can use .223 over there but it's very suitable. I find the .22 magnum is quite good. You will appreciate light weight in the gun since the scope is usually heavy.  V-max bullets provide good kills on Coyote/Fox/ Bobcat at NV ranges.  For very serious Sniper purposes it could be stretched to higher calibers if there is a compelling need. Most systems are 100 yard efficent in anything like total darkness. Possibly 300 yards to a man size target in medium moonlight. I'm talking practical as opposed to advertised. The better ITT units may go beyond this a little but NV is a different ball game. If you have choices in NV equipment check mostly for resolution. About all good units have 65000 amplification but it is the resolution that varies. Compare how far you can read a sign for instance. It can be misleading to use the little one pin hole covers for evaluation. Much better to read street signs at night.

For combat there is a trend toward NV combined with Aim point type sights mounted on the same barrel. The NV scope can be removed for day use. For smaller targets though you need a little magnification at times. While this tends to reduce the light it still provides resolution you need. With IR illumination the Aires Gen II+ is a very versatile in say model 6600 or 6700 III Generation. NV is a completely different ball game. It's hard to get used to hunting at night only being able to see through scopes and goggles. I'm going beyond your question here sorry!

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 14:01:33 (ZULU) 

<<We put enough $$$ gog his head that some of the hard-core faithful may decide to skip the early trip to Paradise and settle into a nice Mansion in The Bahamas instead.>>

I think that would work in a European country, but the truely faithful would probably be willing to sacrifice Bin Laden (Make Him a Marter, and make it look like WE did it) and then turn around and use the reward money against us...

How 'bout using that money to fund private infiltration teams and solve the Bin Laden problem once and for all...

One "man" dies, Another comes to lead, He is taken out... Eventually, they'll get the point......


Chris <>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 14:52:04 (ZULU) 

Chris;  They already have the reward out.  I don't know the terms but it looks like we're through playing.  Successful private infiltration teams will be paid the reward.  If you want to get in on it you'd better hurry.  Some mean and merciless bounty hunters are currently after his ass.

As far as making him a martyr, who cares?  Haifez al el Assad (sp?) said something that translates to our vernacular as, "In the Middle East, martyrs are a dime a dozen."  He'd know.  He made enough of them.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 15:28:35 (ZULU) 

Lito, question on the directions you gave Derek for mounting the scope. It's a question I've been wanting to ask everytime I here the method you gave used. How do you know if your rifle is perfectly level when you sand bag it? By eye? There aren't many flat spots on a rifle that you can lay a level on to make sure the rifle is level before squaring away the scope. Seems to me that if the rifle is off a little then you use the string to level your reticle wouldn't the reticle be level to gravity and the string but will be crooked to the rifle which means it will still be off. I'm not being a wise ass I've just always wondered because it sounds like the best way except for the rifle leveling. When mounting a scope, I usually do it by eye as well as using a level on the elevation knob to double check. Seems to have worked so far for me as my windage doesn't have to be adjusted with greater shooting ranges but I'm always looking for better ways.

It's a beautiful day today. I wish I could be at the range instead of work. Maybe Wednesday. How's the 300WM load work going for you? Any particular loads working well yet? I'm working with some RE 22 now and it seems to have some promise.

Rob01 <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 15:45:18 (ZULU) 

 Concerning martyrs.......Hit him, burn him, scatter him as a dried dunghill in the wind and sand, and say nothing of it....then move to the next in line....

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 16:00:16 (ZULU) 

I just remembered, I was asking about ratings on my Browning Pistol, its not a BDA its a BDM, Duh !

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 17:14:19 (ZULU) 

Fire Dude-ski...

Lining up the stock by eye, while it's on the bags is fine.

It will be within 2 or 3 degrees, and that's fine... the biggest problem is that when everything is set up, getting the shooter to hold the hairs vertical, and when the ranges get long, you gotsa have a bubble.  A lotta guys will dispell this (real men don't shoot with bubbles!)... but when they miss at 800+, they just chalk it up to a bad wind call... but you'd be surprised how the "bad wind calls" go down, once you shoot with a bubble.


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 18:02:23 (ZULU) 

Scope leveling. I had a problem with this and used Lito's method for getting it straight. If I was wanting to make damn sure it was straight you could suspend it by the sling studs upside down and then use a free haning wieghted string to level it up. But with my luck gravity would play tricks on me that day.

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 18:31:48 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the explaination Lito. I'll give it a try when I get my rifle back from George Gardner and have to re scope it. With any luck it should be tomorrow!! But with my luck and everything that's going on shipping will be slow. :(

Rob01 <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 19:38:58 (ZULU) 


Reports of SAS troops already in Northern-Afghan making contact with afghan opposition in search for BIN-USED-TO-BE, all over the news, guess intel these days comes from the telly....this way the enemy do not need intelligence units, they just watch CNN...

Peter Lincoln, about the Boar hunt, count me in.

I'll mail you about the exact where and when we should meet for it.

Just got my rifle zeroed out till 500 meters, had us a competition last saturday, 3,4 and 500 meters,shot pretty good with lapua factory ammo, only fucked up big time at the 500 range, cross-fired so made me loose 5 points, big dumb-ass i am. But it sure feels great each time you hit the V-bull!

What kind of ammo do you suggest for hunting boars, sierra gamekings or the mentioned v-max, and how heavy should the bullets be, 185 at least??

Also would like to get my hands on the Angle Cosine Indicator, mentioned by SLugboy and if you still can get a nice price on the Leica range finder, put one aside for me aswell.

Gerry boars, you better be hiding cause bullets will be flying.


Marco <>
NL - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 20:43:09 (ZULU) 


I am shooting fed 168's gm in my rem 700P. If I switch to Black Hills

175's should I expect as good or better accuracy? It shooting consistant sub 1/2 MOA now.Any help greatly appreciated.

David <>
SC, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 20:52:39 (ZULU) 

168 to 175 Black Hills. There are probably those who have made the switch who would be better qualified but the post is growing moss.

Yes you might expact a little better accuracy especially at longer ranges if everything else is equal. If you are carefully handloading and seating the 168's it probably won't show up to go to factory stuff but if you're shooting factory now it might. Since you are at .5 moa it's probably not going to improve much. I'd go lightly into it as far a purchasing a large quanity and see if it's worth resetting all your range figures for what little you will gain. The 175 SMK is hard to beat. AT any rate 500 yards would be where I would check for the difference. In addition to a few short range groups just to see. And please let us know how you come out!

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 21:48:02 (ZULU) 

Lots has been said about the Clintons.

I do not think we have gotten the whole story till now.

If you do nto have a subscription to the weekly world news go get one NOW!

The graphic is worth the load time:

Charles - Usama Fanclub Webmaster <>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 22:28:25 (ZULU) 


I think that if we are paying Euro/American teams or individuals to do the job, great.  What I was getting at was that the true believers over there aren't money whore like us and Europe.(Not a critizism) They would most likely use the $$$ to fund another strike against us or one of our allies. A cult mentality if you will....

You make an excellent point about middle eastern martyrs.  I just watched Bengermin Netin(sp?? - you know who I mean) on fox.  Very knowledgable in these matters,,, he deserves to be taken very seriously. I hope we don't start making the mistakes that Isreal has made (with our help) over the last 6 or 7 years.

As far as me getting in on it,,,,, I don't think so.  I bitch about cutting the grass these days... Humping up mountain sides again doesn't appeal to me.  I'd like to do my part, but what that will be remains to be seen.

All you Hawgs ans Hawgettes take care,


Chris <>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 23:12:58 (ZULU) 

Thoughts on a strategy by someone whose been and done:

Chris:  It would be presumptious of me to make recommendations to the pros.  All I know is what I read in the papers.  It just looks like ben Ladin is encircled and contained by lots of powerful, competent and ruthless people who are bitterly determined to have his head.

He is a side-show.  This link is a former CIA director properly directing our attention.  Notice the role of the Clinton administration:

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 23:31:13 (ZULU) 


ditto's on what Mr. Bill said, the 168's will be a tad more accurate at ranges up to 600, after that, the 175's will take over.....

Dos Zap

Two Shoes <>
- Sunday, September 23, 2001, at 23:49:42 (ZULU),1361,557069,00.html

I have included the above as a starting place for some articles from the UK viewpoint.

When the war with the Russians was going on I kept up with it very closly and most of this stuff is pretty genuine although not too popular at the moment. I have another excerpt I'd like to include but am unsure of the credits and exact location. If you are interested I'll send it to you under e-mail format. Start with the above link.

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 02:08:49 (ZULU) 

The Telegraph seems to have the best coverage I've seen:;$sessionid$BFVAQDYAAAPGXQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?view=HOME&grid=P2&menuId=-1&menuItemId=-1&_requestid=25291

Say what you will about the Limeys, but they are very clear eyed on the subject of war.

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 02:17:13 (ZULU) 

Rosterferians, this is too freaking wierd. Got this from in an email from stepdaughter.

One of the two planes that crashed into wtc had fly number Q33NY...

Most definitely TRY THIS:

Startup MS Word,

Type the fly number Q33NY,

Change the character size to 72,

Change the font to 'Wingdings',

Bizarre coincidence?

Jeez, how wierd can this stuff get? Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 02:50:41 (ZULU) 

Boltster, Dude!...

You gotta stop smoking that Whackie weed... it's against the law!


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 07:12:08 (ZULU) 

"Find a dog who'll eat a dog.  That's what I always say."____Caligula from 'I Claudius' by Robert Graves.

Bolt:  "This is your brain.  This is your brain on shoe goo.  Any questions?"

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 12:22:23 (ZULU) 


With my scope leveling questions, I do like the weighted string idea.  It would save me the money buying a scope leveler, although I haven't ruled that out.  With getting the rifle level, how about placing the level on the mount?  This should work, right?

I've also noticed that the screws on the rings are not tight.  Is it the screwed up way I was tightening them?  If not, do any of you recommend me using a little thread locker on them?  I don't have a torque wrench, how can I be sure not to do any damage but still getting the rings tight?

Also, of the the topic, where could I find a decent data/log book?

Anyway, thanks for all the help with this stuff.

Take care!

Derek <>
Randolph, Ma, USA - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 12:45:01 (ZULU) 

Morning Hawgs..

   Catching up after the weekend, its nice to see the change in the DR where we can disagree with each other and not get ugly about it. Way to go guys!!!

   I do agree though that we need to hunt down "ALL" terrorist, Arab, Irish, Italian, Spanish or American and kill them in the streets. We have been lax about it for a long time because it didn't affect us, but now it has and we need to pitch in and make it a universal effort.


  Forget the so called "Scope Leveler" that slides into the action its not worth a dime. Do like 'lito says, just level the stock pad straight up and down and then look at a straight line. You can do the same thing in your cleaning craddle if you use one.

  You just have to tighten you ring screws tight!! You don't need the locktite on the ring screws only the base screws. Just get into the habit of checking the screws for the rings and the action when you clean the rifle. That way they will always stay tight and not shoot loose at an in oppertune time, like in the middle of a match.


   Glald to hear the Major is doing better, get rid of the nag(The horse).

Yote Bait, CDC...

   Glad to see you guys back where you belong!!

Pat <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 14:05:03 (ZULU) 

HOGs been bust here and have not posted in a few days.  Well I tried a very nice long post two days ago but the comp burbed and it was lost.

On the English.   I have trained with a few of the SAS.  Studs clean and simple. Professional through and through and from an Old Irish lad I can honestly say I am damm glad to have them on our side.

On 168's versus 175's the 168 was designed in the 1950s and the 175's were redisgned 168's of the 1990's.  The 175s give up nothing to the 168's and why anyone would consider continued use of the 168's is beyond me.  Blackhills is fine ammunition.  I get Federal given to me but use BlackHills instead.  Can not say anymore than that.

Been working with the 338 Ultra lately and I have to say it is the poor mans Lapua.  With RL22 I get 3000 fps with 250 SMK's and 2800 fps with 300 SMK's.  That my friends is the same I get with the Lapua but the cost of the cases is one fifth that of the Lapua.  Plus the rifles cost far less.  On that NorClas brake is the best I have seen.  The Tactical Muzzle Brake rules in the big calibers.

To all my friends, known and not know personally, in the US Military, my prayers and thoughts are with you every minute.

God Bless you all!


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 14:19:08 (ZULU) 

My 2 cents on the scope leveling discussion. A few years ago I bought a regular carpentry type level that is about 10" long by 1 1/2" tall by  3/4" thick. Has 3 different bubble levels in it. Keep it in my "shooting" box and when ever I put a new scope or need to take the scope off the weapon I use this level. I first use it to level the rifle on whatever surface it is on - even using the bipod and raising the the butt until the rifle is level, then use it on top of the flat surface of the turrets doing this on the elevation and windage to be sure it is level in both planes. Once this is done LOOK thru the scope to be sure it appears level, recheck the level, start tightening the mount screws and recheck the level every little bit as you tighten. Again continue LOOKING thru the scope to see that the reticle appears levels as well. This has served me extremely well and cost less than 10 bucks at the time. No I don't remember where I bought it but I would think just about any hardware type store should have one. Again just my 2 cents.


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 14:36:26 (ZULU) 


Just want to echo what the "Undude" said. The Black Hills ammo is excellent. I use it in 6.5 X .284 and .308(175's). It is GS("Good Shit")!

As to the 168 vs. 175's, Mike hit it dead on...the 168 RULED across the course for years, but the advent of the 175 Sierra MK has basically all but killed the 168. The are comparable to about 600 yards, after that, the edge definitely goes to the 175.

Sierra has even considered stopping production of the 168, but sales are still good enought to keep the old dog rolling.

The 300 or so 168's I have on the shelf are turning green. I use only 175's in my bolt guns, nowaday's.

Of course if you want flat trajectory and "pants wetting" accuracy real men shoot a 6.5 X .284(had to stir the pot). I'm damn lucky to have both!

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 15:54:57 (ZULU) 

There MUST be an echo in here...........((;

Dos Zap

Two Shoes <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 16:57:45 (ZULU) 

Sadaam's moves pre 911:

ben Ladin/Sadaam connection:

Only a fraction of the hijack teams were successful.  It appears as if 911 was supposed to be much messier.

Sadaam not moving his armor after the attack would be consistent with this op not inflicting requisite damage.

I bet this op was a screw up and now they realize that they are about to get a mud-hole stomped in thier ass.

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 17:48:20 (ZULU) 

Hey guys check this out, talk about motivating!!

Mayhem <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 18:34:02 (ZULU) 

Our outlook for victory (I'll give you a hint:  BUY!):

NOW, I can go back to lurking.

CDC' <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 19:34:13 (ZULU) 

Hello all.. just wanted to drop a note and thank you all for this great website you have here. It is an excellent source of information regarding long-range shooting and sniping. Although, sometimes the worst bane is having too much information. :)

After spending the last few months here lurking and reading the posts and archives, I now feel confident to take my shot (pun intended :) at long-range shooting. Most of my previous experience was pinking and mixed target shooting.

The common concensus was to buy the best that I can afford (Savage 10FP or Remington 700VS in .308, Leupold M1 LR, Badger scope rail and rings, and lots and lots of ammo to practice with). I've begun pricing the items out, and hopefully will be making a purchase sometime in the near future.

Again, thank you for this great resource. It has immensely helped me with making my pursuit that much more resonable.

Jon Quirit

Jon Quirit <>
Chatsworth, California, USA - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 19:55:04 (ZULU) 

Ok so how is a guy in Europe supposed to geta hold of any Black hills ammo? looks like we are stuck with the 168's if we don't load our own.

Marco, great, glad your in, mail me for where and when etc, I use 185gr lapua mega's, they are accurate and work well on Mr Pigs. 650DM for the Leica, should I order it? you can have a look at my ACI, see what you think of it.

Now this string weight dangling is a good idea for leveling up scopes, but if I go out in to the yard with a rifle and get it rested up on sand bags, by the time I get a screw tight some one has called GSG 9, now that is a bye product of terrorism, dangle the string while you still can !! now depending on the mounts and the quality control on the rifle, what I have done is screw a weaver rail to a bench and level it, then I clamp the rings to it, sit the scope in it, I have a pattern that we used to use for checking scopes on L42's stuck to the wall, I line up the scope with the marks on the wall, tighten up and it works all the time, course its limited to weaver type's, I have the leveler that slots in the action in my tool kit incase I need to level some one on the range. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 20:23:15 (ZULU) 

168's vs 175's...   For you hand loaders out there try the 155 Lapua Scenars..  Just started using them in a short 20" 308 barrel and they appear to have a lot of promise.   Ask Doc King, he's the one that told me about them.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 20:34:20 (ZULU) 

Jon Quirit,

  Good for you and welcome.  The time spent lurking and reading the archives is well spent.  Your list of goodies reads ok by me.  Don't forget cleaning gear.....

  Once again..welcome.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 20:41:20 (ZULU) 


My apologies to all for short if any answers to emails.  Am busy as hell and have not forgotten anyone.

MiCTac:  You especially (although i ahve tried to block it out...)

Marius:  Give me some time, I will get on it but need at least a couple weeks.


Former Airborne Infantry, NYC Firefighter who went ALL THE WAY.

Jefe <>
- Monday, September 24, 2001, at 21:15:24 (ZULU) 

CDC, did you read"Bieng a Muslim in Great Britain" by Fazeela Hanif? an article on the Telegraph site you posted down page, he goes on about not being given time off work to go to prayers at a mosque everyday, about having to remove head dress whilst working with food, about how difficult it is to fast for ramadan when he sees other people(the British People Of Britain) eating,and about not getting time of work/school for festivals, well I suggest to Mr Hanif, if he doesnt like it he should F--- OFF back where he came from, and fast in peace. I am sure that if I lived and worked in a muslim country that my boss would give me time off to watch football, celebrate Christmas,NOT !!! and I bet I would have to remove my Ghillie suit to work in McDonnalds !!, maybe he never heard of the saying"when in Rome...." note tacticle use of home email address, wouldn't want to be accused of racism whilst on work email....Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, September 24, 2001, at 21:42:09 (ZULU) 

Peter:  I've read similar whining.  What reaction do you suppose I would get in Baghdad, Teheran or Kabul if I opened a 'Hooters' and served barbeque pork ribs with Budweiser?

In the news:  "Afghanistan's hardline Taliban government says it has deployed 300,000 battle-hardened troops to key areas in preparation for a "holy war"."


CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 00:44:22 (ZULU) 

Just heard they arrested a Tunisian called N, Trabelsi, found bomb making kit and 2 machine guns in his appartment, the asshole used to play football(socker for you yanks) for a German team (Wuppertal), he has been arrested in Belgium.

CDC, I am sick of hearing from leftie liberal wets here that we should be more understanding of other religion's and maybe its due to the Wests lack of understanding of Islam that these terror acts occur, they rekon we should teach our kids about Islam and visit a Mosque, so what do the kids over there learn while ours are visiting the Mosque to gain some understanding and watching Telly Tubbies?, they are learning to use an AK and all about small unit tactics, and do they even try to understand us, who is tollerant? bet you can't find a church of England school in the whole of the Middle east, Ill show you a half dozen islamic schools in one town in the UK, Our Fathers, Uncles and Grandfathers did not fight so we would have to put up with this shit,do you guys realise that kids in England who live in Muslim areas and go to school there are made to learn the languages?, well I guess at least it will come in handy for a job as a military linguist, but with the expansion of Europe, maybe German or French would be more usefull for a career.

sorry, went on again, not sniper related,, Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 01:50:24 (ZULU) 


>"In the news:  "Afghanistan's hardline Taliban government says it has deployed 300,000 battle-hardened troops to key areas in preparation for a "holy war"."


Dude, I don't doubt what they say for a minute... however, what they don't tell you is, that it's 300 "battle hardened troups" for every gun and pair of sandles!

Peter Lincoln...

Yeah!... what you said.  How come WE have to UNDERSTAND them, while they arrest or deport, and KILL our Christians... maybe we should follow their example, and cancel about a million green cards, and send them packing back to where they get time off to pray 5 times a day, and don't have to remove their turbans to serve barbeque pork ribs with Budweiser at the local "Hooters"!

I'm so tired of the American guilt attude that WE have to understand out enemy's crappy lifestyle... if our lifestyle is so bad, why are people "Dying" to get here.


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 02:15:11 (ZULU) 


Have had several posts on our .308 reloading. I realize that we all have various loads that work, bullets prefered, powder, primer, rifles, etc. My rifles prefer Sierra 175's by at least 1/4 MOA over 168's, 155's, and 190's. So I use them. JLK's, and others shoot as well, but are hideously expensive. The A-MAX rounds are in the same class as the Sierra, but are harder for me to come by.

Use what works for you and don't run the other folks down. What they have works for them or they are in the learning process. ALL rifles will react a bit differently.

I use 1:10" twist barrels because I have the option of using heavier bullets if desired. I can tell no accuracy difference between 1:10's and 1:11"'s. Factory 1:12's do not always give me the desired results I want, but there is a differnece between the factory tube and a custom installed .308 barrel...big difference!

Let's not run down the choices of some of our mates or service members that are FORCED to shoot certain loads. Remember it's the Man, the gun, and the ammo that make the difference.

'Nuff said for now...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 02:31:31 (ZULU) 

Hey Catshooter, hell you should live here, the Germans have been on a guilt trip for years, If you stand up here and say I am proud to be German, you are automaticaly classed as right wing extreemist, but as I said before, if you turn up for work on time here your right wing. with these 300,000 troops maybe we should open a goatsmilk and Kebab shop en give'em one last good meal, and charge em $5 a piece.Then round em up put em in a field and Bomb the Bastards !!, ( you guys ever hear of the English comik Kenny Everett?)

I did hear a report here that the German right wing, NeoNazis where actualy supposed to be in suport of these Muslim extreemists, but I can't figure that one.

Back to guns n stuff, I ordered a scout scope mount and wildwestguns sights for my CQB 450m today, do you rekon that postage will be slow, given the current situation? and I ordered a Heym barrel for my 30-06. Remy 700.

Had a look at one of these Sig Arms, SR970 in 308 today, not a bad looking rifle, heaveyish fluted barrel, smooth action. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 02:44:24 (ZULU) 


This may have already been answered, but here goes.

If you have a M700;

1. Remove the stock from the rifle, remove the trigger ass., mount the bbl in a well padded vise and support the tang on whatever.

2. Level the action at the front of the cutout for the trigger ass. underneath the action.

3. Mount your bases and level those against the above reference point.

4. Replace the trigger ass. and stock.

5. Level the vise-mounted rifle across the previously leveled scope bases.

6. Hang a plumb-line across the room or wherever.

7. Turn the power ring down on your scope.

8. Mount the rings, and lap if desired.

9. Mount scope vertical cross hair in alignment with plumb line.

10. Loopy Mk IV rings will not cause the scope to turn when tightened down in a cylinder-head manner.  (I have 3 SETS and no Badgers.  But I'm sure Badgers would respond the same.) ;-)

11.  Cheap rings are touchy, but it can be done, again using the cylinder-head technique.

12.  Mount a scope-level bubble to the scope and leave it in place.  This is a much quicker way to level everything up if you ever switch scope from one rifle to the other.  Esp. if blocks are all level w/ actions.

(I stole #12 from 'Lito, and the rest of this technique from Jerry Rice.)



PS.  It works.

dennis <>
merced, kalifornicateya, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 02:45:19 (ZULU) 

Ditto! Peter Lincoln CDC and the Catshooter, you guys are beginning to make good sense.  That's worrysome to say the least!

300000 battle hardened refugees you say?  But I bet we have more crop dusters than they do!

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 02:48:00 (ZULU) 

Osama Bin Laden....."May your next shit be a Hedgehog"

do you have hedgehogs in the US? ya know mini porqupine type creature,

I went past the European HQ of Stars N Stripes today, the locals had placed many many floral tributes and cards at the gates and hung in the fence, it was touching, makes you want to do some thing worth while,

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 02:59:35 (ZULU) 

Just wonder how far they'd go before they quit runnin if they looked our there on the gulf and saw a carrier deck full of crop dusters?

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 03:27:06 (ZULU) 


If that's what you go through to get your cross hairs straight, I'd HATE to hear how you make scrambled eggs, make pancakes, or do an oil change :((

You shouldn't have to take your stick all apart, just to mount a scope on it!!... and how do you level the vise, and how do you level the table it's on... and the floor, and the house, and the street... I've been acused of being a bit of a perfectionist in my time, but I ain't never gone that far to mount a scope...


Same here... Anybody that wears an American flag on their car bumper, is considered a "Right wing fanatic"... over here, it's very "Chique" to be anti-American (but they sure enjoy the benefits)... many of the companies here are forbiding the showing of the American flag during this time of morning (even little ones on the desk) in fear that many of their employees will be "Offended" by the sight of it!


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 03:57:17 (ZULU) 


Well I THOUGHT it was you that came up with mounting a scope level on the tube...

Yer right, I AM just a touch ANAL-RETENTIVE!




dennis <>
merced, kalifornicateya, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 04:16:15 (ZULU) 

Durn yore sorry hide...........lito'!!!!!!

I was mindin' my own bidness( for a change....((;), and then YOU go and do it!!!!

Anyone who has a flag on their desk, and are axed to get rid of it, ought to oblige the offended party......hehehe..

You ever heard of rectal defilade?

How bout', Coloflagitis................

Emergency room would be a definite needs be.......

Of all the things they have seen lodged in that recess.......I reckon that would be a first.......

"Here, allow me!!"...........

Hope I don't see it, or am around anyone that says bueno.....)):

Rant OFF.......

Dos Zap

Wave that flag.......I dare you to say "Don't".

Two Shoes <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 04:16:56 (ZULU) 

Hey Lt. Chris here,

I know times are tough now but i was hoping someone could tell any info they could about the Belgium FN special police rifle.  Antone ever soot one? How was it?

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 06:10:24 (ZULU) 

Peter Lincoln: "I did hear a report here that the German right wing, NeoNazis where actualy supposed to be in suport of these Muslim extreemists, but I can't figure that one."

Seeing that you already recognize other left wing groups as being anti-America and sympathizing with the more radical Islamic Arabs, let me clear something up...

The word "Nazi" is short for "National sozialist" - don't take my word for it, look it up yourself.  Despite the fact that leftists call Nazis 'Right Wing', and call the right wing 'Nazis', grasp the fact that Nazis are really nationalistic socialists, and you'll understand that they're really lefties.  It's just that the lefties don't want to be lumped into the same pile with Nazis, so they lie - big surprise.

Once you understand that Nazis are really lefties, everything falls into place.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 08:42:32 (ZULU) 


Fear not brother, I tried your Word thingee.  Holy shit!  This is NOT numerology revisited.  It's friggin crazy!  'Lito and CDC, I would really like to hear how youse think this happens like that.  Again, this is NOT numerology.  Or is it?  Go ahead and try it!  And no, I am NOT sniffin' shoe glue!!!  I know what I saw!!!!

Outta here, but still lurking....

Geoff M

Geoff M <>
USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 10:21:06 (ZULU) 


I didn't "invent" mounting a level on the scope tube... but having to strip the rifle into tiny weeny pieces to put the scope on just seems a bit "much!"


Two Shoes...

I'm old enough to remember when this country had parades on "Flag Day"... now it's a real sorry situation.

On both coasts, if you even OWN a flag, you are considered to be some sorta redneck, right winger... the elete of this country seem to be embarrased by all the things that are "American", but let them get into some kind of trouble, and they are jumping on the constitution and the bill of rights, like white on rice.


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 10:23:39 (ZULU) 

Morning all..   Here's a link to a little anti-terrorist target practice game that might interest you.

Have fun...

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 12:05:33 (ZULU) 

Lito'........yes sir, I remember em' also.....

About the elite in this country being embarrassed by all things's cause they "AIN'T" Americans......they are Socialista's.........

And you are right on.......

Look at the ACLU.....WHERE have they been since the WTC & Pentagon mess??......heard any hue and cry over all the PRAYERS allowed in schools, and the governmental institutions.

Funny how folks always go back to their "ROOTS", in time of National tragedies........seems like they always pull GOD out of the closet.....WHEN they need HIM.

Like he's a puppet for their beck and call......

Michael L, right on.........most folks don't understand what you posted.......Right wingers equate to BAAAD.........

Left is GOOD...........

Man, I am sure glad I own a BIG flag, and I am proud to be a right winger.........

That means I ain't a Natsi!!!!!!..........((:

Two Shoes

Declaring this Right winger/ Flag Day!!!!

Kicking rocks and Mumbling to myself in Tejas

Two Shoes <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 12:35:40 (ZULU) 

Geoff:  That does look pretty crazy.  When you get big complicated events you can always look at little pieces and find coincidences.  Out of all the sequences of numbers, letters and other symbols generated, if you do something like go through all possible fonts, or phone books or social security numbers, some of them will look startling.  Its like looking for patterns in clouds.

Pablo:  In 12 days they equipped, deployed and provisioned 300,000 hard-cores?  Figure the weight and cost of two months provisions.  And that many of those proud mountain people are eager to go to the mat for an Arab?  Naw, man.

"When weak, act strong.  When strong, act weak."________Sun Tzu

Here's the plan (or, that's our story and we're sticking to it):

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 12:36:51 (ZULU) 

Bruce Robinson,

You ever get the data from your Israeli friend regarding the polygonal rifling?

To all:  Been reading the 168 vs. 175 discussion and have a question. The "standard" M1A load for service rifle for the 168 was/is 41.5 gr IMR 4895.  What is the "standard" loading for the 175?

Ken H.

Glad the Major will be OK.  I use to ride quite a bit but not too much the past couple of years.  A good friend of mine has steel rods in one arm and a large scar across his forehead from a horse.  It took him a while but he is 100%.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
VA, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 13:21:19 (ZULU) 

This redneck counted 18 flags and 0 Turbans on the way to work this morning. Thats 4 blocks away. Employers that would ban the flag around here would be ill advised. Probably somebody would get a big ass whuppin? Just how big a ole boy are you?

Chistian; like to help you but don't get too many Belgiun rifles around here. Hard enough to find a Belgiun Waffle. Doctors got BMWs though! Wish I had one but a country boy will survive!

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 13:25:20 (ZULU) 

Wonder what the Arab words for Hard Core is? Most Hard Cores are already in the field aren't they? Where do you get em.. run a ad in the local "Rag". NO pun intended!

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 13:30:19 (ZULU) 

I just want to jump in here with another unrelated post - but I think it needs to be restated.

We are not at war with Muslins - Islam.  We are at war with individuals that use cowardly attacks and would seek to pervert religion in order to give their cause legitimacy.

As soon as we turn on innocent visible minorities - or uninvolved.  We have lost what made us greater than them in the begining - they have already stolen some of our freedom - the freedom of safety of life - I doubt anyone will look at an aircraft the same again.

I taught a reserve recruit course in Petawawa in 94 - we had a Somalian (Muslin) on the course - he had a huge amount of heart - he would stop to pray, but he then would run with his ruck and rifle to catch up to the rest of the troops.  (as a side note he would put off praying during 'tactical' portions).  - And you should have heard what he thought we should have done to the thieves and murders in Somalia.

See people for their actions (and to a limited way their words)

not their race, color, or creed.

Kevin of the GWN <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 13:59:31 (ZULU) 

Anyone who thinks there are 300,000 well equipped, adequately provisioned hard cores eager to die fighting us should read this:

Most of these good people want nice peaceful lives without fear of some religious cultist kook executing him for teaching his daughter how to read. Sounds like we have the basis of a deal.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 14:40:14 (ZULU) 

I saw an interesting report on TV, about the world food relief agencies... seams that they have stopped bringing food into Afganistan, and are now piling it up at the Pakastan border crossings so the Taliban won't get it... one crossing had over 82 tons of wheat, plus other food stuffs, and tents, water, etc... the same is going on all along the Pakastan border.  Since Afganistanh has had a severe drought for a long time, they are dependant on outside food... here's the kicker... because the food has stopped coming in, the Taliban has less than a month's food supply for the whole country... good way to enter a war with the "food basket of the world".

Maybe we'll just wait them out, and ask "Are you hungry enough to eat porkchops?"... or maybe they can eat opium poppies, the national crop!!


CatShooter <>
Eating Crow??? I'll shoot it, you eat it..., - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 15:30:45 (ZULU) 

Here is a post I got off another board.  Tells about how the Star Spangled Banner came to be written.  Only takes a few minutes to listen to it.

HDR <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 16:00:37 (ZULU) 

Peter L;

order me one of those Leica's, cause 650dm aint expensive at all.

Will be mailing you about the hunt.

Looking forward to it.


Ordered a dragbag (long gun pack mat with hawktex) from BlackHawk on the 17th of september, and it already dropped on my doorstep all the way across the big pond yesterday, took only 7 days, now thats what i call fast service.

Although very expensive (VERY!!), it sure is worth it, the quality just shines, its rugged/ strong, and very versatile with lotsa options for carying and dragging it, including straps to carry it as a rucksack which you can stow away behind a zipped flap, also an option to include a camelbag and when folded open it really is a nice shooting mat, with rough hawktex where ones elbows will be during a prone position.

"Unfortenately" i received last friday as a going-away present (this will be my last week of my military career) the Dutch issued drag bag in dpm which our snipers and dedicated marksmen use to carry their Accuracy AWM .338 rifles, so now i own 2 outstanding dragbags, 1 for free and one for not so free   ;)

About the war on terrorists,

 my personal 2 cents say that Mr George and his administration are using the wright tactics to wage this new war, no big ground troop war just to keep the CNN audiences pleased,

but hush-hush surgical strikes (which if they do it wright we, the people, will never hear about) with the use of Special Forces, Intelligence agency's and even international Banks to freeze terror money around the world, i truly believe if we keep going about it this way we actually stand a very good chance to eradicate this cancer called terrorism from the face of the earth (maybe not totally but we sure will give "them" a distinctive message).


Marco <>
NL - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 16:45:33 (ZULU) 


After participating in two of these little things we call "wars" I want to give a perspective and share some of my feelings.

First, I don't like starving women and children. Perhaps it's just me getting soft, but I've always seen Marines giving food to children and the less fortunate. Seems to be a trademark. Fight like Devils, but have "heart" for the non-involved/less fortunate. I, for one, think it is a trademark and one we can be proud of...

Ever look in the eyes of a starving child and see no hope? I HAVE and don't want to see the look again. Not caused by us...

Having run the Marines Enemy Prisoner of War facility in DS/DS in '90/'91 I can tell you a little about these people and their make up.

First, they are big on show, saving face, looking good, but rarely have the courage of their convictions. Most of the 20K plus I had in my facility fell into this category. The small minority are the extremists/terrorists. In this case Known Interpol Terrorists and the Republican Guard. Different story.

Most are just folks off the street or just concerned with feeding their families.

The hardcore folks and leaders are the one who need to have their attention "focused". Most don't care about the people because they are the unwashed/unholy masses. Cannon fodder and will be used as such. I for one would like to see surgical raids, to get Bin Laden and his ilk, plutake out any supportive leadership. If new leaders imerge let them suffer the same fate.

Just an old Marines .02 worth. I hate seeing the majority suffer for the stupidity of the "righteous few".

Testing some new 155 Palma loads tonight...just to keep this shooting related!



Kevin, 'Lito, and CDC make good points...

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 16:46:22 (ZULU) 

"See people for their actions (and to a limited way their words)

npoinheir race, color, or creed."

Very nicely put, K of the GWN.


Marco <>
NL - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 17:43:45 (ZULU) 

The border to Afghanistan is closed because the ruling Taliban have a large hand in the loss of 6000+ Americans.

If the oppressed women and children of Afghanistan need food and water, Pakistan should setup temporary camps on their soil to house them.... They should use the aid stockpiled at the border to feed them. I'll kick in a few of my HARD EARNED bucks to give a kid a matter what color his/her skin, or religion.

Do I have guilt about the crisis in that region.... NOPE, NONE AT ALL. I've seen children without hope in New Jersey, USA... Too many dead firemen and recently orphaned children in NYC to think about things halfway around the world...

I hate the terrorists that did this, but their race and religion have nothing to do with would be wholly un-American to hate a whole religion for the action of a few cowards...remember, we pioneered the whole "HOPE" and "freedom and justice for all" thing a few years back...

Call me old fashioned, but I'm still into the concept in a big way.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 17:57:55 (ZULU) 

Ref: I dunno....

I've been reading with some dismay the savaging Rod Ryan has been taking on another board.

Man!  This stuff is harsh.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 18:09:28 (ZULU) 

"Analysts say that before the present crisis, their (Taliban) army numbered fewer than 50,000. Even with conscription, it could not have swelled above 70,000, far less if reports of large-scale defections are true.":,,2001330016-2001332385,00.html

Yep, 300,000 hard-cores was bullshit.  The Taliban looks like it may be crumbling.  Keep an eye on Pakistan.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 18:45:26 (ZULU) 

Back to some rifle talk. I just got my rifle back from George Gardner at GA Precision yesterday and was very happy. He inletted my McMillan HTG for the Tactical Stocks trigger guard and bedded my barreled action in it. The work was excellent as well as the customer service. For people that don't know about George and GA Precision, I highly recommend them. Thanks George.

As a side note I'm selling my previous McMillan A2 stock at the Emporium.

Rob01 <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 19:50:55 (ZULU) 

OK, maybe I need a course in sensibilties but what is offensive TO MUSLIMS about


 If someone could refrain from telling me we aren't at war with the Muslim peoples long enough to think about it please advise, because I'm completely stymied by this development.

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 19:55:59 (ZULU) 

To all those good folks out there hurting and angry about what happened in N.Y.C. and Washington:  here in Israel we've been stunned by it despite having suffered over 7000 (!) varied attacks in the last 12 months.  Make no mistake: it's not just terrorist organizations and nuts like Osama Bin Laden.  It's not spontaneous. It's not limited by anything we'd call rules.  It's about a culture which has never been willing to accept any "other". It's a whole culture that has been consistently fanatic at subjugating and erasing human rights, other lifestyles, other peoples, other religions, other nations. Until recently it has not had the power to affect Western progress. Now it has, and has made a grand and dramatic appearance on our stage.  Read history, and especially read about Attila and the Huns.  It is estimated that within 5 years Islam will be the largest religion in the world.  That's what we are facing, and we'd better find the stuff that makes for hard and correct descisions.  This will not end soon and will not go away after this or that organization or leader is taken out.  May God give us the courage, wisdom, and fortitude to do what's required.      Yirmi, Israel

Yirmi Zanton <>
Rehovot, Israel - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 20:36:08 (ZULU) 


According to my very weak understanding of the Muslim faith, infinite justice is a technical term for something that is the sole province of Allah.  For any human agency to claim such a mandate is blasphemy.

No problem.  Let's change the name to something suitable and proceed unhindered.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 20:48:59 (ZULU) 

Quote of the day: "You can't give me a ticket when its raining!"  Press hard, lady, there's five copies.

Got my Leica 800 last week.  After a slight learning curve, works very nicely out to about 550 yards.  After that, I find that I need to brace it against something because I can't hold it steady enough for the return.  Also found that I am very good at estimating ranges by eye out to about 250.  After that, the "skill" deteriorates dramatically! Very good LEO tool.  Nice learning aid also.  Small size and light weight easy to pack out.  Not crazy about the 9V battery.  Instructions say that you can shoot another 100 targets before the battery dies after "LOW BATT" warning.  We'll see.  From Premier Reticles .. $4 Bennies.. 2 day delivery... beautiful service as always!

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 21:25:11 (ZULU) 

CDC; Thanks, it was a real question, I couldn't see what was offensive about that, I claim a certain ignorance exceeding yours apparently. We have changed the name by the way.

I believe my understanding is more like that expressed by Yirmi. I will be adjudged politically incorrect for saying that but it's just my personal take on the matter. We should not get into that as a thread argument here.  A few months from now this will all seem irrelivant unless I miss my guess, we will have identified the enemy!

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 22:01:35 (ZULU) 

CDC:  I get it, some sort of a statistical thing.

What Kevin OTGWN said....

Geoff M <>
USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 23:23:50 (ZULU)

Paul from VA,

Yep, got the data, but my rifle is throwing a fly into the ointment...can't do a side-by-side, cause mine shoots too fast!

Both chrony readings taken at 26C/78F, barrel on Israeli rifle (polygonal) was 24"(61cm), not 20" as I thought.

Israeli muzzle velocity: 786mps/2588fps. (BlackHills 175 Match)

My velocity (20" barrel): 2615 fps, same ammo.

Go figure. Published spec for this ammo is 2600 out of a 24" tube.

Only thing that I can draw from this is that each barrel is different, and the 20" Hart barrel as chambered by the Chandlers, in this case, shoots faster than predicted.

We all know that two apparently identical rifles may have completely different preferences in ammo. This just proves to me that I can't compare conventional rifling to polygonal rifling without a damned big sample of rifles. My rifle prefers 175's to the 168's, even at 200 yds., and with a 1 in 12 twist.

If any of you want to donate a couple hundred rifles to me, I'll be happy to run further tests. Five or six PSG-1's would help.

By the way, got some chrony readings on IMI Match, and it's surprisingly consistent. Black Hills is better, but the IMI stuff should give the bad guys a bit of trouble!

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 00:00:05 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers -

Operation Infinite Justice - Islamic doctrine preserves the dispensing of "infinite justice" to Allah and only Allah.  Mere mortals are not allowed the privilege.

The Operation has been renamed Operation Enduring Justice, meaning we're in for the long haul.

What I don't understand is why we cowtowed to these POS and changed the name?  Why are we Americans always apologizing to somebody for what we do?


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 01:35:34 (ZULU) 

Dos Zapatos, if you don't think there are dickheads out there who live in a world of "Political Correctness," read this about a company in my town.  By the way, this made the national news, protestors at their front doors and they finally backed down and actually bought flags to hand out to the employees!

Boca has a reputation for being "pretty" and "PC" and full of "new money."  We also have our share of Patriots.

Moral - Don't fuck with us!  :-)


NCCI pulls workers' flags

By Phil Galewitz, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

Saturday, September 15, 2001

On a day of national mourning and prayer, a Boca Raton company had its managers confiscate some American flags from employees' cubicles, saying other workers might find them offensive.

NCCI Holdings Inc., a company that compiles workers compensation insurance data, told its 850 Boca Raton employees that displays of nationalism had no place in the office.

"Divisive statements or actions, political or religious discussions and anything else that could be divisive or mean different things to different people are not appropriate in our work environment," Chief Executive Officer Bill Schrempf said Friday in a memo to employees.

Several employees complained about the flag prohibition. One employee said she was suspended and told to go home Friday morning when she refused to remove a small flag from her desk. The company refused to confirm whether it had asked any employees to leave.

"It just boggles my mind that here in America or anywhere in America, one would be restricted from displaying it," one employee wrote in an e-mail to Schrempf that also was sent to The Palm Beach Post. "Too many people these days, including yourself, it seems, seem to forget what the flag symbolizes and that many men and women served to defend that flag. I think you should show a little more respect."

NCCI spokesman Michael Bullard said the company has a long-standing policy of prohibiting employees from bringing political or religious symbols into the workplace.

Fewer than 10 flags were removed from cubicles, Bullard said. "It seems to me only a small number of people are upset about this," he said.

Palm Beach Gardens human resources consultant Rita Craig said companies need to understand that "right now, more than ever, people want to celebrate the fact that they're American."

"Let's face it, this is the United States. Our flag signifies our freedom," Craig said. "It's not saying that other countries are bad."

Other large Palm Beach County employers, including Delray Beach-based Office Depot and the Palm Beach County School District, allowed their workers to display the flag at their desks.

At FPL Group Inc. in Juno Beach, some employees were given small flags, said Pat Davis, a company spokeswoman.

At Office Depot, the company sent an e-mail to employees Thursday encouraging them to wear red, white and blue clothing on Friday, said company spokesman Lauren Garvey.

NCCI observed a moment of silence at noon Friday, gathering its workers in the headquarters' atrium. The company also has offered to help businesses affected by the terrorist attacks. The attacks at the World Trade Center and Pentagon will generate thousands of workers compensation claims.

NCCI said it was not directly affected by Tuesday's terrorist attack, though some employees lost family and friends, Bullard said.

Gov. Jeb Bush this week urged all Floridians with flags to fly them. Radio stations and various groups have urged Americans to display the flag this week as a sign of national strength and unity.

NCCI is the only Florida company named in the 2001 Best Workplace for Financial Professionals by CFO magazine in its September issue. It was singled out for its "quality of work life."

NCCI's "company practices enable each employee to create for themselves the proper balance of work and family life," CFO said.

NCCI provides on-site amenities, including child care, gym and a Starbucks cafe. It also has an employee-community volunteer program and flexible work scheduling.

Staff writers Dan Weil, Amy Martinez and Jeff Ostrowski contributed to this story.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 01:49:29 (ZULU) 


One way is as good as another.  Just adding my 2-cents.

It's the method I used when assembling my two Remmys.  And they needed "pulling-down" for bedding and such anyway.

Hell, on some of my rifles it was just simpler to "eye-ball" it square.

I just finished four days of trying out some new-fangled contact lenses for extreme astigmatism.  3 feet to the left at 500 yds!

Plus I couldn't use irons for shit even at 100 yds.  I took 'em out and put my glasses on and my groups went back to where they were supposed to.  ('Course they coulda been smaller, damnit.)

Take care,

Semper-Fi., all.


dennis <>
merced, kalifornicateya, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 02:08:52 (ZULU) 

Michael A Litscher.

what I meant with not being able to figure that one was that the NeoNazi's here petrol bomb homes, businesses and shops of coloured and middle eastern/asian ownership, they beat up dark skinned people, want rid of all non white citizens, but then they side with ragheads attacking America?, it don't add up..

The Nazi's here are a product of Socialist left wing politics, you have to look at it as a circle, far right automaticaly meets far left, some where on the dark side.

They are gaining support (especialy in the former DDR) because of the fact that the German governments(as most European Governments do) let in so many immigrants, this is paid for by tax payers,many people in Europe are sick of paying taxes to have them given as hand outs to immigrants, when schools, hospitals, law enforcement and the Military are all under funded.The Nazi's see it that every foriegner employed here is putting a German out of a job.

I am not sure of the exact figure, but its over 80% of all crime is committed in Germany by foriegners, but no one seems to do anything about them, Fiddle your tax return and you get 5 years, Sell drugs to a kid and you get 6 months,the whole legal and social security system in Europe is fucked. with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 03:10:51 (ZULU) 

Moe,  Some times I think we just don't have the resolve it takes to wage war. We are so afraid of collateral damage and political incorrectness we forget to lock and load. Between our college cowards and bleeding hearts, I wonder if we will ever get a round off! It doesn't really make any difference if you apologize and then kill em or kill em and the apologize.  There's gonna be some shootin!

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 03:22:37 (ZULU) 

Wes and Kevin of the GWN:  Very nicely put.

Question/survey... for the experienced snipers, past and present. When patrolling to an area where you will do a stalk, do you patrol in your BDUs and then change when you get close (using local security), or go the full monty all the way?


Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 03:38:13 (ZULU) 

"INFINITE JUSTICE" ... I consider it a bit blaspemous too, but mainly I just think it's impossible to achieve and I'm glad it was changed to something more realistic.

I think our fine president has put together the best team in at least 10 years, but only God can do anything infinitely or perfectly.  I call Him Lord, Father, Yahweh, Jesus, Holy Spirit, King of Kings, and many other names, but I certainly would never call Him allah.

"Enduring Freedom" is kind of a lame title though.  Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't feel like it was my Freedom that was threatened by Bin Liner so much as I felt violated.  I expect the efforts to bring justice and security will likely curtail my freedoms more than the terrorists did.

Feel free to flame...


Dale Malony <>
Powell, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 05:47:03 (ZULU) 

Peter Lincoln> NeoNazi's here...side with ragheads attacking America?, it don't add up..

Perhaps it's a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.  I doubt that the NeoNazis favor the great melting pot of America, especially a city with as many races as New York.

I'm willing to discuss the rest of your post with you, but I think we should do it off the roster.  Our hosts here have been exceptionally tolerant of off-topic posts, but I don't want to push it.


Went to a local gun show and found a bag of 60 pieces of cleaned and polished Once Fired Lake City .308 match brass.  Some of the headstamps say "L C 64 NM", and others say "L C 63 MATCH".  There's a couple that say "L C 63" and what appears to be a cross inside of a circle.  From what I've been able to tell, the NM stands for National Match and is supposed to be identical to the MATCH brass, and the numbers are the year of manufacture.  Not sure about those oddball ones with the cross/circle.  None of the primers appear to be crimped in.  Can't say I'm any kind of brass expert, but for $7 I now have some other types of brass to experiment with.  Any precautions or advice?

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 06:41:32 (ZULU) 

"race and religion have nothing to do with it.....unamerican to hate a whole religion because of a few cowards..."

        Jim, I certainly do envy you your sheltered view.  I've been living here in Israel for almost 30 years (half my life) and have seen enough to have had my own illusions broken a few times.  Illusion-breaking is never a soft experience but is nonetheless an important moment of becoming free.

        Race may not have anything to do with it, but then I don't think that race is involved here anyway: it's not about black vs. white or yellow vs. red or whatever.  And belonging to a race genetically sure won't make a man better or worse in any event.

        But being in a given culture gives you certain values and that may be a different story altogether.  And religion, finally, is about value systems and mindsets, and the way one actively lives his life.


        If you want to stay away from "hating a whole religion" stay deaf to what's being  preached daily in mosques all over the world.  Don't hear what Moslems say and teach about "infidels" who refuse to see their truth.  Don't witness the depravation of human rights, the savage enjoyment taken in inflicting pain and slaughter on non-Muslems, the justification of treachery, terror, and subjugation that are held as honorable by Moslem culture.

        Jim, it's not just "a few cowards"....the Moslems danced in the streets here and throughout the Moslem countries when the U.S. was blasted.  One in every five sons born in Middle East Moslem countries now is being named Osama in honor of Bin Laden.  And, just between us, they weren't cowards, those suicide bombers who flew into the Pentagon and the WTC.  It takes enormous commitment and balls to do that.  It also takes a totally sick culture to get them to see their victims as discardable rubbish, snuff them, and feel glee.

        Personally, yeah, I think it's pretty American to hate any culture like that, any religion which preaches that, and any nation that forwards and justifies such action.

        Sorry if I've gone on a bit too much here, but I've been, as I said, facing up to very un-American realities for many years now and your innocence simply won't get you where you- and all of us- will have to get to soon.

        Looking forward to any response you may care to forward...

                                Yirmi,  Israel

Yirmi Zanton <>
Rehovot, Israel - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 12:03:01 (ZULU) 

Bill;  If we don't make an example of bin Laden and his sponsors, 911 was just the beginning and bad guys will feel free to exterminate Americans as if we were flies.  President Bush has stated as much.  So, not only will we fight, but we will continue to fight until one of the sides of this conflict is incapable of continuing to fight.

I bet life in the Ranger Batallions has gotten real interesting.

Yirmi:  I have a close friend who was raised as a Moslem.  Her value system in no more frightening than a Lutheren's.  She cried constantly for days after this atrocity.  She put a "We will not fail" scrolling marqis on her computer and moved heaven and earth to get the biggest American flag available.

My kids call an Iranian Moslem "Auntie".  She is a loving person who would never endorse the killing of innocents.

Islam forbids the killing of women, children and unarmed men.  The great poets of Islam such as Rumi and Jami are indistinguishable in message from Christian mystics such as Meister Eckhart.

Hate is preached in Mosques.  Does that make Islam evil?  Listen up, bud:  Have you ever heard "The Reverend" Al Sharpton or "The Reverend" Jesse Jackson?  Do they make Christianity evil?

But we all appreciate you telling us who it is "American" to hate.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 12:14:20 (ZULU) 

We always have a paradox in America I guess you would call it. We killed  Comanche's but we loved the nobel Redman. We have this with every race from Irish to Zulu. Are we so small of mind that we cannot distinguish between Uncle Ahab and Osima the Terrible. We need no labels for anyone, but those who preach death to the infidel from the pulpits represent what we should be wary off. I don't feel hatred toward anyone but if I were to express that there is danger from the Moslems preaching I'd be classed as some kind of undesirable bigot or at the very least UnAmerican. If this needs a metaphoric simplification. I once had a coyote pup. I really was attached to him but he was dedicated to stealing my chickens. I hunt coyotes all the time and respect their religion (stealing chickens) and their intellegence greatly but when I get one in my crosshairs I think about the chickens!

One of the reasons we have two towers on the ground is because we don't get it!   Didn't get it and didn't listen to those who do!

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 13:19:03 (ZULU) 

Yote Bait..

   Well said, I read Yirmi's comments with great intrest. I know what he is saying is porbably more true than we care to admit. There have been countless numbers of people killed and tortured through the years in the name of God or Allah.

   We are dealing with people who use their faith to justify the evil that they do to others and then rejoice in the suffering that they cause. Maybe not all of Islam is like that but how do you tell who believes what?? I am "Not" for painting everyone with the same brush but I do think we need to listen to those who have lived with this for many, many years.

   We also need to be ready to face up to the possibility that we may have just seen the opening rounds of a "Holy War" that will have only one winner. God forbid if this is the case because many, many more will die and there will be no "Innocents" in this type of war.

   We must go back and check the history of the holy wars and see "Why" they started. Was it because Islam had gotten strong enough and they wanted all christans eliminated?? or was it just a mad man with power??

 Are we once again facing a religon that is getting so strong that it wants no other forms of religon and is willing to kill all others in the name of religon or are we facing another mad man?? Maybe only time will tell but we either learn from it or we will be doomed to repeat history only in modern times with modern weapons where millions could die in the name of God or Allah. Lets hope and pray its not that way for all of mankinds sake.

Pat <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 14:10:44 (ZULU) 


Yamiri: Spoken like the true Israeli that you are.

Make no mistake I think what you have offered is acutely pertinent and certainly frank, however there is a tendancy for people to take what you or any other resident of Israel say with a grain of salt. After all the bashing your people have taken over the decades is certain to merit your point. I would suggest though, your position (while perceived by you as correct) appears tainted to some of us. Justifiably so.

Call it short sighted or ignorant if you want but you are biased beyond retrieval and the newly realized "Muslim crisis" here in America will have a uniquely American spin to it as it develops. Right or wrong. And like others here on the forum I too have a Muslim friends, indeed my partner at work is "Muslim" and as a FF/Paramedic crew who have recently returned from NYC we BOTH are disgusted. I resent your position which groups All Muslims into the same category as the criminals who delivered our wake up call.


I hear a lot of "God"/ "Allah" talk in all this. The TV, Radio, Internet postings, etc..

What if you took "God" or "Allah" out of all of this. The attacks then just become CRIMINAL. An attack by gangsters on society. There in lies the true approach. Resolve the problem definatively and move on.

Semper Primus!


Mark <>
NY, - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 14:22:05 (ZULU) 

There is a real danger from demagogues preaching hate.  That goes for Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell claiming that 9-11 was "God's Judgement" as well as similar nonsense being preached in Mosques.

But the Moslems I know are no more dangerous than Episcopalians.

Look, we are about to make an example out of this James Bond villian.  He will die a violent death at our hand.  Then we will defeat one or more sovereign countries.  This will entail the killing of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people, most of whom are enemy soldiers.  Fire and steel have historically served to calm the hot-heads.

There are 1.25 BILLION Moslems.  Most want nothing more than to be left alone to raise thier kids.

So I propose this:  Any of these good people in foreign countries who don't want to fight, let's leave in peace.  Let Yirmi rouse his rabble elsewhere.  But ALL Americans need to step up NOW!

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 14:26:53 (ZULU) 


perhaps I lack adequate information to develop a more informed opinion.

I most definitely am not "innocent" by any measure of the word.  It is statistically probable that I have seen more death and suffering than you.

That said, I am absolutely open for a solid education on why a whole religion should be hated due to the actions of a small subset of that religion's total populace... really, I will listen with an open mind and will try to understand your perspective... right now, I'll stand by what I think is right at the moment (as always)

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 14:29:00 (ZULU) 

Michael A. Litscher:

"Not sure about those oddball ones with the cross/circle."

The cross within the circle is a NATO headstamp.  Means the ammo was originally loaded to nato standards.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 14:30:31 (ZULU) 


Your argument reminds me of the Catholic-Protestant struggle in North Ireland.  Watching the Protestants there (I am the archtypical WASP) toss gasoline bombs at the children (catholic) on their way to sick makes me sick - a hell of a way to prepetuate HATE.

I don't believe myself to be PC - I just think their is no reason to inflict suffering so no reason whatsoever.

I do believe in sending a message to those who would attempt to get us to abandon our values and freedoms however-->wipe them out to the last man.

I am a big fan of tying the bastards up - wrapping them in time fuze to a chair around the leg so they get a brief respite as it burn around the chair leg (plus some anticipation) then rubbing the burn with bacon fat.

I wonder what the BC of a MK211 rubbed in Pork is?

Kevin of the GWN <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 15:57:47 (ZULU) 

HOG's many of you know and respect Rod Ryan.  He has been attacked big time on SOCNET and if any of you would like to read what is going on and write your feelings based on life experience with Rod please do so at my request not his.  Now is not the time to get in a single man hide.

MikeMiller <>
Calif - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 16:22:48 (ZULU) 


Re:  The Yirmi/Isreali point of view vs. the "American" point of view.

What we have here is a lot like the American settelers point of view of the native americans who have been slaughtering his family and friends vs the point of view of folks living in Boston during the westward migration.

Yirmi has grown up with constant wars with Arabs, suicide bombings every week, etc.  Its all new to us (kind of).

Bottom line here is AMERICA is meant to be a country where EVERYONE can come and enjoy the liberty's that we have here.  It is meant as a melting pot where people of all creeds can come together.  But they must come together as AMERICANS.  Now, define "American".  Bill Murry defined it as "We are all mutts!" and I agree.  That is what makes us who we are.  A country created by white, Christians but a country that wants everyone who wants to join our club to join in and become Americans.  Jews wanted their own country and created Isreal, and you got what you wanted.  A Jewish homeland and now you also get the continuation of the Arab/Jew problems that have been going on since the creation of time.  You get tired of it, come to the US.  But leave your anti-Arab shit over there.  I am an American and I'm "anti-Asshole".

We will fight this war like AMERICANS.  We wont hate Muslims, Arabs, etc.  It aint Christian!!  We fought the Germans in WWII without hating all Germans.  Hey they were/are Christians!  We will hate the enemy, we WILL hunt down the dogs that did this shit and who do HATE us, and put em in the ground.

Okay, I'll just climb down off of this here soapbox...okay..there...


Gooch <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 16:25:12 (ZULU) 

I'm going to feel out of place if I post some sniper/shooter stuff.

Gizmo:  Moving in a Ghillie suit?   Depends how far, how long, cover available, etc, etc..    Traveling descreetly, most definitly.

I had the chance to shoot the new 20" 308 this weekend, I just put together the pieces I had for it and me thinks me have a good one. The Kreiger barrel should do the trick.  The rifle isn't finished yet nor is it even close to being broken-in but for one that hasn't been bedded yet and hasn't had a load developed/tweaked yet, it was giving sub MOA at 100 and 200 yds. I hope I don't screw it up by finishing it.

Ken when we go on a stalk guess what rifle where carrying?   The Tow or the Midget?

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 18:25:18 (ZULU) 

Ref; Soapbox......

Fellow sniper enthousiasts,

I truly believe this is a sniper site "free for all" and everybody on it is entitled to his opinion and give his 2 cents worth on whatever,

but me personally begin to get the idea this no longer is a sniper site...

Been flamed quite a couple of times (direct / undirect) for posting non-sniper related topics (at least they were about rifles, competitions and handloading) but nowadays about 90% of the postings are not sniper or even gun related for that matter.

Nothing wrong with that and quite understandable after what has happened in the USA, and ofcourse it surely is a good way for people, especially Americans, to ventilate their feelings and frustations on this site and help eachother through these terrible times, we should be thankfull for that to the board of this site.

In comes Yimri Zanton,

I respect the man and especially his opinions (nomatter how dangerous they are) and his insights to terrorisme, especially since he has been living with the constant threat of terrorist attacks on a daily basis,


has anyone ever seen him before on this site?  I haven't.

Has anyone ever hear him speak about anything gun related, let alone long range/ sniper related topics?  I haven't.

Who will be next on this site, a Palestinian who gives us his side of the story? Or a Hutu from Ruanda who wants us to remember that we are forgetting his people's situation? Or even an Albanian who asks us to not forget Kosovo? And what about a Bin-Laden follower, giving us his 2 cents about his side of the story?

What i mean to say is, it looks like we are now atracting people on this site who only want to ventilate their political motivated idea's and why we should be allowed to hate whole nations, without even reading what this site is actually about..."The duty roster is an open forum for the art and science of military, police, and civilian long range shooting."

Or have the rules of engagement changed since the last time i checked into " open forum for the art and science of political motivated idea's"

Maybe i am way of, and do not get me wrong, i am not saying we should stop talking about what happened in the USA and the new WAR on terrorism, but i most surely feel it should be us, Rosterfarians who talk about it on this site and not folks who have nothing to do with gunz or the "sniper way of live"...Let those people stick to their own sites, there are more than enough sites and forums on the internet who are totaly divoted to political/religion and rase issues.

Anyways, just my dutch 2 guilder-cents worth of...


Marco <>
nec temere, nec timide, NL - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 18:25:34 (ZULU) 

What Marco said!!!!!!!!!!!


Titan <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 19:07:23 (ZULU) 

What Marco and Titan said!!


CatShooter <>
Save a mouse, shoot a cat!, - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 19:17:23 (ZULU) 

What Marco, Titan & 'lito said!!!!


ps. Andy got his learner's permit.  Buckle up out there.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 19:53:51 (ZULU) 

What, Marco, Titan, Kevin and 'lito said! Only difference coming from me is I HAVE THE ABILITY to SHUT DOWN all this other stuff if I want too! Not saying I, or any of the othher SC Staff will shut it down...BUT! Some of the posts are starting to get a little tedious. Guys I'm as American as anyone else on this Roster - hell Uncle Sam got 20 years of my life to do with as he pleased, and YES we most definately will get those involved in this horrible CRIME and they will pay dearly! HOWEVER this is a SNIPER and SHOOTING related site and how about we get back to that!

As Marco said..."Maybe i am way of, and do not get me wrong, i am not saying we should stop talking about what happened in the USA and the new WAR on terrorism, but i most surely feel it should be us, Rosterfarians who talk about it on this site and not folks who have nothing to do with gunz or the "sniper way of live"...Let those people stick to their own sites, there are more than enough sites and forums on the internet who are totaly divoted to political/religion and rase issues".

Lets take his insight and get on with OUR way of life!!

Waiting for incoming!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 21:02:06 (ZULU) 

Current world event's aren't "sniper" related??????

WTF Chuck!!

Granted they aren't long range shooting specific but many of our REAL sniper brothers are getting on ships and planes fixing to go do the deed!  If we were fixin to go fight WWII would topics re: the Germans and Japanese be off topic?

Seemed to me that we were talking about an ENEMY in a real war.  Granted its not as sexy as spin drift, reloading dies, bubble levels on scopes, shooting through glass etc.

I vote to let it ride!  This is REAL for once not some diatribe regarding some theoretical bull shit.

As far as the deal with Rod Ryan goes.  He needs to answer the shit by himself so all doubt is removed.  It was started by a respected member of the USMC Scout Sniper Association checking creds in order to send some students through SMTC.  Some simple qustions were asked and they require simple answers.  I'm staying out of it and so should all of you guys to keep the fur flying down.


Gooch <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 21:08:07 (ZULU) 

To All:

Pleased to announce that Mildot Enterprises just got a contract with Picatinny to supply Mildot Masters to the Army for inclusion into the Accessory Kit for the M24 SWS. Army and Navy now use it, where are you Marines? You guys invented the reticle, after all.

Thanks to all of you who have supported me and the product, and talked it up to your pals. Sniper Country has been real good to me. Hope I can repay you guys.

As to the current tone of the posts:

To be expected. We got whacked pretty good, and are pissed.

We've got some good level heads on this site, though, and we need to listen to the likes of Jim, Gooch, and others who remind us that this is America. Existence of rabies does not mean you shoot (or hate) every dog you see.

I've got a few friends in Israel, working security tonight and tomorrow. They are dedicated people, and have my undying respect. Doesn't make me hate Muslims. It DOES, however, piss me when I see children dance in the streets on 11 Sept., and it DOES piss me when nations that receive billions in US aid harbor murderers and broadcast anti-America propaganda from state-run television. It's their right to do so, but I'll be damned if I'm happy about my tax dollars rewarding them for doing it. How many of you remember the GI dragged behind the Jeep in Somalia? If you don't get pissed at this stuff, you need to move to Berkeley.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 21:09:16 (ZULU) 

Marco, your Leica is ordered.

and in next months Visier, the German shooting Mag, there will be an article on a rifle built by Menke, in 6.5x284, using Norma factory ammo from their Diamond Line, should be interesting.

I'm working on the S&B 4x25..

My Daughters Birthday tommorow, so I'm busy blowing ballons up,,, catch ya later.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 21:12:26 (ZULU) 



Peter L.

Happy Birthday to your daughter!!!!!

To all:

There are a couple of long range matches coming up at Camp Butner.  Click on my name below to go the the website.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
Reston, VA, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 21:20:48 (ZULU) 

 I wish I knew Rod Ryan but always met resistance befitting a wannabee like myself, when I tried too. I wasn't put off by it and just figured I wasn't considered worthy of his time, or maybe It was something else, but credentials should or could be shown to stop that shit storm. I could not be sympathetic to someone posing as a Marine if that were the case. Good ole boy and good sniper instructor or not! I hope that it not the case sincerely out of respect for those who respect him and know him personally and that certainly applies to you Mike.

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 21:58:14 (ZULU) 

Marco; if only it were that simple. This international politics is giving us all a headache whether we like it or not. I just heard on Ophra (while working on some equipment that brings the show down from sat) that all the world hates America anyway!  Whadawegottolose?

"They may not love us but they will learn to respect us!" T. Roosevelt

This is the whole point of this reprisal of GW's. Like Gooch said it's gonna take down some good men and I say it's gonna take down some innocents, we gotta do what we gotta do.

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 21:58:36 (ZULU) 

Hey Guys

Been reading the Post for awhile but have only bothered some of the local guys with e-mail questions.  I was looking some info on some good handloads for the Rem 300 Ultra Mag if anybody has been loading these. If anyone can help please drop me some mail. I will be shooting a stock Remington PSS at least through hunting season.

Also interested if anybody has had any luck with this rifle in this caliber. Good or bad thougths always helpful.

Thanks for all the good info on the Post. It really saves the rookies alot of time and mulla.

One more thing, we may be getting tired of political talk but like Gooch said, alot of guys missing on the Post now days. We know they are busy getting ready to make things right. Just remember the shooters and all that are about to be involved even when we are not talking about them. Couple of the guys where coming hunting with me this year and I know that will not happen now. Just hoping they will be back to hunt next season.

Rookie shuting up now and back to listening...

Frank Bullard <>
Fay., NC, US - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 23:21:16 (ZULU) 

Just thought I'd drop by the Sniper Country Duty Roster to see what's happening but as I see it has turned back into the Terrorist Attack/ World News Report Country Duty Roster. I thought we were actually going to get back to some shooting and rifle talk there for a few days but I see it's not to be. Oh well guess I'll go back to Snipers Paradise and Snipers Hide.

Marco, Titan and Lito you tried. ;)

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 23:26:39 (ZULU) 


The "What Marco said" wasn't that this thing in NYC wasn't important... it IS! (and THAT is the meaning of "IS!)... what he said, was that a lotta new names (non shooters??) were poppin' in and using SC as a platform for talking up their own issues.

The NYC thing has a lot to do with what we are about... it would be real fine if they dropped in 2000 snipers/DMs/SSs into North Afganistan... and let the local good guys just point out the BG's and have our guys punch them... and the comunity would get some good press (for a change).

'yote Bate...

>"Ophra says that all the world hates America anyway! Whadawegottolose?"<

You know that! I know that! We all know that!... Ophra doesn't have to tell us... those people that are crossing the oceans in inner tubes, or crawlin' under the barbed wire... Hell man, they don't want to come to America, they want to go to Afganistan, and Somalia... they just got lostified, cuz they used Korean compasses that they bought on the internet.

El Hombre' de' los Gatos muertos :))

CatShooter <>
Save a mouse, shoot a cat!, - Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 23:29:17 (ZULU) 

Saverio Scozzafava <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 23:48:16 (ZULU) 

Rob01:  If war is not sniper-related, what is?

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 23:49:16 (ZULU) 

Yeah Catman; durn Korean Compasses! It's a wonder that Mexico isn't flooded with all the refugees wanting to flee the evil Infidel Govt.

Apologys to those who want to read about guns as is advertised and our thanks to the board for leaving a place for us to vent. Guns are almost a religion of mine. (Lot of people hate me for it but it's all I've got)But it's a free country, And this ole Red Neck Tin Hat Wannabee Fat country POS just can't help but think about 6000 countrymen who got slaughtered and my old capitalistic bureaucratic overtaxing wanton wasting government of old balding fat guys that I'd die for in a minute that now needs my support and what few futile means of encouragment I can offer at a time like this. Hell this is the only way I have to do it. Praise the lord and pass the ammunition!

See ya'll later....

I'm pullin out for the hills. Ben Laudin if you want me try 37n 102 w. I'll be thereabouts it'll be ok lest I see you first. I gotta see something that makes sense and see the Sun go down over the Rockies one more time before they send me to whereever old hasbeen tribes people like me go!

In the words of Douglas Bygod MacArthur..."I will return!"

Bill Rogers <>
, KS, US - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 01:35:12 (ZULU) 

Winter ops in Afghanistan:

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 02:08:35 (ZULU) 

Somfin' on guns (for a quick break)...

I got an e-mail from a Rosterfarian a few weeks ago... he has a very good riffle, good scope, good base and rings (Badger), and good ammo... and his stick is shooting 1/2 foot groups at 100yds.... he's snugged up all the screws, but it's still bad.

The Badger base comes with screws that are too long, on purpose!.  The idea is to cut/grind them to just short of the maximum length, before they touch the barrel thread, or bolt.  For the new guy, this might seem like a pain in the ass... but it's a blesing in disguise.  Many bases come with screws that are way too SHORT, and will strip out one or two threads (all that they can "grab"), leaving you with nada.

A few years ago, I bought a first edition .223 Winchester M70/Custom-Sharpshooter for $1,000... NEW!... (they cost $2,500 with a two year wait).

I bought it from a guy who had put in short screws, and stripped 2 threads (leaving about 10 more threads in virgin condition)... then he had epoxied the bases on (crooked), and then sold it to a sucker... ME  :)).

I put chunks of dry ice on the bases, and they popped off without leaving a mark, and put long screws in, and it's one of the best rigs in my rack.

How to PROPERLY mount a Badger base.

The badger screws are too long... A lotta guys don't know this, and screw the screws down tight, but it's tight against the barrel inside the action, and the base still can move.

Here's what you do.  Lay out the screws, and if any are longer than the others... use them first.  Take out the bolt!

Put the base on the action, and take one screw, and put it in the front hole (the one next to the barrel)... screw it down 'til it stops.  Then "Wobble" the base... if it is loose (it should be), then get a sense of how much too long the screw is, and remove it.  Grind off a bit with a Dremmel tool (go get one!!!), and try again... do it a little at a time.  When it gets to the point where the base doesn't move when you wobble it, then grind off ONE MORE THREAD !!... clean the screw, put a bit of gun oil on it, and put the screw in.

OK... leave that screw in, and take another screw.  Now put this screw in the second hole in the front... it will go all the way down.  Now put in the bolt... if the bolt binds when you try to lower the handle, this screw it too long... back the screw out one turn at a time (counting the turns)... after each turn, try the bolt.  When the bolt handle goes down without ANY resistance, then remove the screw, and gring off two less threads than you counted... then try it again, and grind off what you need for a smooth closing... then take off ONE MORE!... clean the screw, put a bit of gun oil on it, and put the screw in.

When those screws are done, put in one of the two back screws.

Put in the bolt, and run it back and forth, like before... does it feel the same, or is there any "extra" binding?  If so, run your pinkie inside the underside of the action, and see if you can feel the screws protruding.  Grind them down a little at a time, until there is no "extra" binding... if you felt no difference in the bolt movement, then don't grind the two back screws.

OK... take the rings apart.  Put the bottoms of the rings on the base.  Push them FORWARD, so the cross bolts are against the forward edges of the slot, and tighten the side nuts.  Now, lay the scope in place, set the cross hairs to plumb, and put the ring tops on, and tighten.

That's it... I got an e-mail tonight from the fellow, and his stick is shooting 1/2" groups :))

OK... back to terrorism.


CatShooter <>
Save a mouse, shoot a cat!, - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 03:15:57 (ZULU) 

Hogs... I need to know what the make-up is for L2A2 British 7.62X51 ammo. Is this just bang-bang ammo like M80, as I suspect it is?

Thanks, Tim

Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 03:52:00 (ZULU) 

Don't give up hope guys.  Life will get better.  First it was a triple bypass and then it was 9/11.  Couldn't shoot for at least six weeks so I sat around and got pissed off watching idiots crash airplanes into the WTC and the Pentagon.  It all got better today!!!  Looked out the back window and there on the 50 yard line of my range sat a nice big fat feral poosy cat.  Grabbed my Saaavage 10FP .223 and eased out the back door.  After trying, with very little effect, to stop panting, I managed to send the varmint off to keep Osama company.  Life is definitely getting better.

Tony Y.,

My boy is interested in the Sky Marshall bit.  Where did you go to check on entry requirements?

Doc <>
The patriotic Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 03:52:09 (ZULU) 

Our first return blow:

Some of this is trivial, but there is some good info.

Put me down for believing that this 'Afghans shrug off winter' is nonsense.  Winter in the mountains wears you down, I don't care who you are.  Conscripts will bail.  They haven't had time to cache food and ammo.  Resupply will be a bitch.  Movement is HARD.  We are going to be constantly hurling horribly loud, white-hot, razor-sharp, explosive shit at them.  These guys weren't consulted about 911 and they aren't going to be at all happy with ben Ladin about dragging them into this mess.  We have big $$$$ on his head.

Put me down for thinking that his scalp will hang from Bush's lodge pole by May.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 04:21:57 (ZULU) 


Hope you'll forgive me for posting a weapons related post, but I'm going to leave the conjecture to other folks.

Secondary Weaponry. Important, you bet! When I'm not in the field my pistols are my primary weapon. Remember, if caught flat footed, they're what we use to fight our way to the better weapon.

Just finished detail stripping and cleaning my 1911 Colt Stainless Commander. Not stock. It's got some custom touches I like, but not extensive. Mostly reliability and handling improvements. Lately, it's been failing to feed the last round from the magazines...with ball ammo. Magazines are Wilson-Rogers. Appears the springs have taken a set(NEVER had that happen in a government magazine). Ordered new that will be here tomorrow. Will replace and test. Then be back in action.

One of my instructors and I were discussing this...we have both used and like: Sig, Browning HP, Glock...well you get the picture. We ALWAYS go back to the 1911 pattern guns. Something about them is "comfortable". They meet my three criteria for self defense weapons well. They fit, are reliable, and are in a suitable defensive caliber.

Deer season Saturday. Will do some light hunting, but am going to let the fools get it out of their system and then go to my "special spot" where they have dutifully chased them all!

Recieved my JGS .308 Winch/Obermeyer Spec reamer today. Absolutely, gorgeous! This is match spec all the way. Am tucking it away for my next rebarreling/custom job. If you want to see the spec call Carol Egelhoff, at JGS, and she can send you, electronically, drawing #3519.

Definitely a tight chamber...

All for now. Let's say a prayer for our folks, in uniform and out, who are involved in the current "situation".

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, 97326 - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 04:55:50 (ZULU) 


Got my new Ka-Bar today, model #1214.  Traditional look, but with a black handle and black half-serrated blade.  This knife also came with a kydex sheath which has 2 snaps for the knife handle and will hold the knife inverted.  The sheath also has multiple securing points including 4 slots for 1" web and a bunch of places for 550 cord, or the standard belt carry.

What's the word on the MOLLE vs ALICE?  Any ideas for comfortable wear of LBE under the framed ruck?

Feel free to email me, thanks in advance.


Tim <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 05:33:08 (ZULU) 

Saw this over on another board.

It is really great :-)

What IF Bin Laden owned a liqour store and you had a Glock/

Takes a few min to load but its worth it!

Charles <>
CCCPalifornia, - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 06:41:12 (ZULU) 

"everyone hates America !"



have any of you ever tried to love a overgrown, bully, smart ass, rich, fat but nevertheless beautiful, kid on the block that runs around all day telling everyone how great he is and how the rest of us are all shit.

Come on America, make it a little easier for everyone of us to love you.


Torsten <>
germany - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 07:05:51 (ZULU) 

Ref: GPS

Few posts up the page Bill Rogers posted a coordinates and it reminded me of something.

I'm thinking of getting a GPS.  I don't need anything too fancy.  I just want a rig that will be accurate and will give me coordinates in UMC and lat/lon.  I'm more comfortable with the UMC system and always prepare my 7-1/2 minute maps with a grid off the "blue tics".

Any suggestions??


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 12:08:48 (ZULU) 


Torsten that was the best thing I've read in who knows how long.

There is genius in brevity.

Shooting question here, though not really sniper type.

I have just the other day purchased a Savage Tactical 110FP in .223 (stop laughing and sucking your teeth) that I will primarily use for Coyote whackin. Anybody have a preferred, "over the counter" round they could recommend? I'm not looking to spend top dollar for a hand load just to pester the local predator.

Figure this is Upstate NY farm land and it's real F'n cold. What will give the performance and knock down?

Feel free to email me so as not to bore anybody with a topic they probably feel shouldn't be here.

Semper Primus!


PS_ The reason I asked the question here rather than at some varmint site is cause I kinda like youz guyz and am more familiar with the personalities/ knowledge ergo the info will have more influence.

HMMM maybe thats why so many "non sniper" related questions get asked here.

Just an observation from an old Pathfinder.

Mark <>
NY, - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 12:24:19 (ZULU) 

CDC, war is sniper related but people rambling on about their theories and what I can see on the nightly news isn't. Talking about sniper deployment in the Afganastan AO would be fine. What they will face as far as targets and enviroment they will have to work in? Those are sniper related but alot of what was being said is just opinions about terrorists and people on their soap boxes and it gets old after a while. Obviously I'm not the only one to feel this way and I'm sure there are others that just don't want to say anything but I've never been a wallflower. I hope this explains my statement.

Hey Lito, any good loads for that 300WM yet? Are you using the 190 SMK? Just wondering. Hopefully if the weather holds I'll be able to get to the range tomorrow but who knows.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 12:26:21 (ZULU) 

Torsten, .........HUH????????

Brevity in that????

If you would be so kind, please explain, I didn't find any humor in it at all, especially in view of the latest events.

That fat bully just may be a smart ass, and a pain.....

But, he just happened to basically rebuild half the damn world after blowing it to hell.....and forgave ALL the debts incurred by everyone else.

Have / did we ever get a thank you?, we get hated.

Go figure, I wish we would just pull out of the rest of the morass, and let everyone else fall to their own devices.

In this we ARE guilty, I vote we help us, and let the rest of the world pull their self up by their own bootstraps,sending all that aid and such.......hell, we are always meddling!!!!.

As one of our founders so long ago pointed out, "We should stay clear of foreign entanglements".

WE didn't listen..........and now we pay the price.


Two Shoes <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 12:55:45 (ZULU) 

Terry you forgot that that "kid" gives aid money in the millions to almost every country in the world as well as always come to the aid of anyone that ever needed it.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 13:10:34 (ZULU) 


   I hate to admit this but one of my old shooting buddies actually bought a Savage in the .223 for killing coyotes.(He's a predator control officer) I had a lot of fun with him for awhile but the gun does really shoot well and now he loves to rub it in(HA). I belive he uses the 60gr bullets but if your interested I will check with him and get his load for you.


  Might be so but you just have to love us!!!(HA)


   Just sent off my order for a new SS match Krieger barrel that I won at the D&L shoot. Ordered it in a 6.5 and will chamber it to a 6.5x284 again when mine gets wore out. My son won a Pac Nor and is getting his in a 6.5 also. Now if I could just get JR. to put one of his barrels on the table next year...

   I am still in the process of getting settled in after moving. I am bulding a new and improved loading room in the basement so will be looking forward to that.

  I have over a 1000rds of once fired Lapua brass that needs turned into some 260 brass also. I can't wait to try it out. My son gave me a 50cal ammo can full of it for my birthday!! I knew I raised him right(HA)

Pat <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 13:22:29 (ZULU) 

Rob01: Do us both a favor; when you see my moniker just scroll past.

t:  Yeah, Americans who act like they are some big deal are obnoxious.  In my experience it is the ones who don't have much else going for them.  Has anyone else here spent much time around Europeans?  We Americans aren't so bad.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 13:51:23 (ZULU) 

Rob01 - If you were going to a foreign land to fight an enemy of your country...and you ran a chance of dying for the cause... would you want to know that the folks you were defending understood and appreciated your efforts?  There ain't much we can do for the guys that are deployed or heading that way soon... but I kinda figured some solid "chat" on the subject here couldn't hurt.  That is still my perspective, but I will be more diligent on content going forward.

Torsten - Big, Fat, Bully?  (Stereotyping are we....)

My response... Uptight, anal retentive, mule headed stubborn, selfish, xenophobic, just as fat and rich....and that is just Germans... you should hear my thoughts on the French...

In summary... we somehow find it in our big hearts to tolerate you guys (with all your apparent flaws)....perhaps you could learn from our example? <grin>

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 14:09:45 (ZULU) 

CDC, keep posting what you are it is important and related. Airborne.

Rob, no wars on here.  Enough stuff coming down without us starting. Time to stick together

Bruce Robinson, great news.

Bill, I will take you in my AO any time. I think a man is often judged by his friends and with you around they may mistake me for having some class. If Rod had a chance to be friends with you and did not he screwed up.

Savage 223, honestly I have been thinking about one for shooting  prarie dogs.  Just have not found a really cheap one yet.  Prefer a Remington 700 but 223's are not that common or should I say cheap.LOL

Gooch roger that will back off.

Torsten, time to re-group not funny

Well unless someone here can figure a way to get a 40 year old cop in the military reserves or otherwise looks like I am out of it.  Sinister tried but no joy.

Paul, been playing with 300 grain bullets, 338 caliber, at 2800 fps.  Guess what BDC wheel works very well with them on a MK4 M3.


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 14:18:03 (ZULU) 

Each of these bear a careful reading:

Post 9/11 fear in Iraq:

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 14:28:29 (ZULU) 


I've backed off the thread but I will state this now... Several of the individuals who are continually slamming Rod in the thread are doing so as anon trolls.  I cannot believe anyone who is to cowardly to post at minimum an email addy... I don't care if they are a vaunted "Marine Sniper" or not.  As long as they continue to remain anonamous, they cannot and should not be considered credible by anyone.

I've spoken to Rod and I am letting him handle this.  Personally, I think anyone who asks for the information as those trolls are but have to remain hidden don't deserve the info.  I hope Rod flushes the toilet with these guys.

I'll stop now before I go off on a serious rant.


BCR #226 <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 14:44:55 (ZULU) 

Andy's Dad..

Magellan used to be the one to get, but now Garmin has it wrapped up... go to:

... and look over the stuff. That will tell what you need to know.


Mark... Hornady has a factory load with the 55gr V-Max... it'll drop them yappin' puppies like bricks.


FireDude... the 300WM?  You mean the friggin' rifle from HELL... I don't wanna talk about it... it's back for a new barrel :(((((


Torsten... "Ugly Americans"??? Well, sure... we have our flaws.  But I had a job in Antigua for three weeks (it was hell, but somebody had to do it)... remind me to tell you about the large group (40+) of Germans that was at the hotel.

The whole stinking bunch were thrown out after 3 days... made us Americans look absolutly "Genteel".

For countries that have cultural flaws, the Germans stand shoulder to shoulder with the Americans, any day of the week!


UnDude... you're gonna get a WHAT??? A Sav... Naw, say you were just kidding!  Get a .223 Stealth... you'll be in love.

El Hombre' de' los Gatos muertos :))

CatShooter <>
Save a mouse, shoot a cat!, - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 15:24:44 (ZULU) 

Hey sniperdudes, just got back from the New England Sniper Summit.  Taught some, worked the range for Ed Gross at Crosshairs Inc. to pay my air fare/room and had a blast.  Met some SF guys and cops from all over New England.  Got to shoot some suppressed guns.  Man if I would have had one of those in high school, I would STILL be in the pen for all the deer I would have whacked.  Accuracy Int'l had some guns there for show.  I walked in and the rep was talking to some guys about the rifles.  As he talked he was taking an AWP rifle, (wearing a Scmidt/Bender, AI mounts) holding it by the barrel and slamming (not just dropping) it against the hard floor squarely on the recoil pad WHAAAACK !!!  OH MY GOD !!!!! I was shocked and dismayed.  Every sniper that walked in had the same twisted look on their faces that I did.  The rifle would bounce a foot in the air and he would catch it by the barrel and then he would do it again.  WHAAAACK !!! He talked for five minutes while doing this. He then proceeded to lay down in front of me and shoot a TRUE 1/2 min. five shot group at 100.  He did this off and on for two days. UNBELIEVEABLE !  My Remingtons would have been useless pieces of crap.  I was totally impressed and I absolutely have to have one.  Nightforce scopes are cool too.  Oh, knowing that I was an armed passenger, the pilots greeted me on a first name basis.  Nothing like professional courtesy for a change.  The stewardesses did all but hug my neck - but then again, I am a handsome man.

Later fellas,


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 15:29:04 (ZULU) 

CDC, no problem. Consider your posts scrolled passed.

Mike, no wars here. Just posting an opinion on how I feel the direction of this site is going. Everyone here has an opinion and I'm going to voice mine.

Jim Mitchell, I've been one of those guys you are talking about, as I'm sure others here have, and I am not saying we shouldn't show support towards them because I will do anything possible to support them. I'm just saying sometimes those guys want something to take their mind off of what's going to be going on and coming here and constantly having it talked about might not be doing as much good as you might think. We get enough of it jammed down our throats from the media and sometimes an oasis is needed. I'm not saying not to talk about it at all but maybe keep it to something that won't be on the local news.

Lito sorry to hear about the rifle. I'll leave it at that.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 16:04:01 (ZULU) 


Thanks to those who ofered the advice on 'yote loads.

Re the Savage .223:  Yeah Yeah Yeah! I know the whole get a real rifle stuff regarding the Savage tacticals but ya know what; for $400 bucks and a couple more for a Tasco scope (Yup, I said Tasco and Savage in the same paragraph. I bet thats got some of ya torqued up pretty good huh?) I beleive I walked out with a pretty damned functional Coyote whacker. The cash I saved buying this rig verus another will let me get out and shoot a lot more of them there Hornady V-Max's 'lito suggested.

Make no mistake I understand and agree with the arguement about paying for the higher quality perspective. But this option opened other opportunities that another expensive rig would have eliminated. Besides I'm real new to 'yote hunting and this should be a good entry level approach.

Anybody have any advice for the novice predator hunter email me.

By the way, I LOVE THE ASS CRACKIN, BACK AND FORTH HERE. From a lurkers perspective (an astute one anyway) there is actually information of use buried in it all. Argue away guyz cuz the learnin curve just keeps gettin smaller.


Semper Primus!


Mark <>
NY, - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 16:41:46 (ZULU) 

Mike; thanks for the kind words, and I hate like hell this mess with Rod true or false it diminishes all of us I think including his accusers. I agree that those who won't even use their own names are just serving as antagonists unless they have a compelling reason for doing it. They don't get no respect from me!

Pat, did you ever use .243 to make .260. Works really fine! Not Lapua quality, but I just thought I'd mention it for anyone else here who might be needing .260 and can't find it. Very simple just run in the sizing die and load! Fireforming will do the rest.

Now me and the Jeep were gonna head out without saying anything else! But you guys are lettin that German yank your chain! I bet he's bittin his kraut eating tongue off! Laughin at our butts for gettin upset with him! He's a retrobate a fornicator and excessive beer drinker and really don't have a sister!  But hatin Americans is a damn fairy tale! I hope a BMW runs over your G3 you old Kraut! Go ahead and laugh!

I'll be up slope! Torsten's Sister will be taking my appointments while I'm gone! Ah'll be up slope. You'll need a good slope doper to get me out of the hide!

Doc, Take care ole Hoss! Old Docs been through some tough stuff lately guys! Looks like they may have not take the honery out like his wife requested but they got all the rest! Check at for that Marshall Program. They don't want you and me ... Yet! But your son needs to look into it! Cheerio!

Bill Rogers <>
Elkhart, KS, USA - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 17:04:39 (ZULU) 


>"Anybody have any advice for the novice predator hunter..."<

Yeah... DON'T SHOOT THE COYOTES WITH THE COLLARS.  They belong to Buffy.

They were mutts before you fired, but after you shoot them, they are her $5000 show dogs... and she'll be really PISSED! ;)))))


CatShooter <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 17:36:12 (ZULU) 

The guys who are using thier "handles" in this "cred check" thing are part of the USMC scout sniper community.  Most of them are with the USMC Scout-Sniper Association and list email addresses where they can be contacted.  Like I'VE SAID BEFORE its a small community and most of us know each other through schools, duty assignments or mutual friends.

I'm not passing judgment either way but if you've ever been a Ranger, SF, S.E.A.L., or whatever.. nothing gets you riled more than a possible poser.  I've been challenged before and was happy I was!  If you are the real deal its easy to prove if need be.


Gooch <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 17:49:28 (ZULU) 

It looks like the early report of about 20 hijack teams was wrong.  There were about 8.  This op may have met it's objective of just sticking a finger in our eye rather than failing to meet an objective of decapitating us.  Sorry about jumping to an apparently wrong conclusion.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 17:53:50 (ZULU) 

Well I can't agree on dropping the War Chat - but just My (less than) Humble Opinion.

Finally got out to the range to try the HSM 175gr - much to my horror it was Moly - anyway a buddy who runs molly tried it and it went in under 1" at 200m - now I got to figure what do do with 1000rds of Moly Match-ARGHH!

On a side arm Q: I smacked my BHP and looks like  broke the tritium vial on the front sight - Novak/Trijicon - is there a less costly maner of fix than replacing the entire sight?

Kevin of the GWN <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 18:08:10 (ZULU) 

Hey Gooch!

I'm not a SEAL but I did stay at the Del Coronado once.



Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 18:23:55 (ZULU) 


   I can't get into the sight everytime I type it in it comes back as not found I wish someone would make a link so we could just click on to the sight.

   I don't know Rod or what this is about but it sounds like someone is calling his creds into question. I know how this upsets these guys having been around them and shooting with and against them. They earn there badges and it really up sets them when someone posses to be one of them and isn't. They pick out a phoney in a heartbeat because as you said its really a small comunity.

   I have heard Rod is a good instructor but don't know his back ground or what he is or isn't. The problem is that now days eveyone wants to be trained by a EX-DELTA or EX-SEAL or EX-SNIPER. They could care less about what you have to offer if you don't have the title, even if your one of the best instructors in the country.

   I think its a farce for some of these "EX" whatever guys to pass themselves off as instructors too. Some of them may be great operators but are shitty teachers. One of the best guys I ever fought against in martial arts couldn't teach you how to fall down without hurting himself but he was a hell of a fighter and a lousy teacher.

   I guess what I am trying to say is that if Rod "IS" a good instructor then he doesn't really need to be EX anything. If your good at what you do you will earn the respect of the "Operators" and you will be respected and accepted for what "YOU" can do, not what your are or were.

  I have met a bunch of these guys shooting matches and have made friends with a lot of them, they like to give me shit about being an EX-LANDSAILOR but I know I have their respect when I shoot against them or see them at matches and they come over shake hands and want to know how things have been going with me.

   I hope Rod is what he says he is and this thing clears itself up but if not, from what I have heard Rod is still a pretty sharp guy and should be able to earn the respect from the operators. If he did exagerate his qualification maybe he felt he needed to to get started to show what he could do, but I know that doesn't make it right either.

Pat <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 19:57:02 (ZULU) 

Okay guys, here I go again.  This is kind of where I got in trouble as a FNG rosty but WTF.  Pat, you and Gooch BOTH have great points.  It IS a very small community.  And yes, word does travel FAST on some guy who purports to be something he IS NOT and it really pisses off the guys that have earned the badge, beret, tab, trident, title or whatever.  Hell, seems everybody wants to be a SEAL or whatever these days except they don't show up for the try out.  Then you have all of this BS that benefits no one.  That is precisely why only current operational people are allowed in certain circles.  You circumvent a lot of unprofessional BS by doing that.  Ex's and youstabes are cool (we'll be one some day too) and will always be friends but with the girls I run with, if you get transferred or whatever - well, "it's been nice knowin' ya" and that's just the way it is.  Very professional, no bullshit, no whining and life goes on.

A good instructor is just that.  Dad used to say you can learn SOMETHING from ANYONE and you never stop learning.  Bottom line -  Check the guy out, whoever he may be.  If he has the background you require and teaches something you think you can use, send him your money and go for it.  If not, pass him by.  No big deal.

My 2


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 20:24:56 (ZULU) 


Time to get back to basics and business.

Take a look at the InReview section, I've just posted Sarge's review of the

BadLands Basic Precision Rifle (Sniper) Course



Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 21:02:36 (ZULU) 

Well imagine my utter joyful mood in these trying times. Just got back from the smith down the street. Looked in the normal places for new stuff to bug him about. Saw this monster long and thick barrel with a funky muzzle blast thing-a-ma-jigger on the nose mounted to a yucko savage action. I quized what in the world it was for. The reply was that a customer had ordered a 6.5x.284. 'Magine that I retorted. Where did you get the 6.5 barrel? HE BOUGHT THE REAMER!

New quandry! Siding for the house or new riffle? Piss off Meatwoman or new riffle? Let the burlap eating sniper tracking mutt starve or new riffle? Hehehehe, somebody's getting ready to be really unhappy.

Anybody have a 700 30/06 action for sale?

Juices flowing again, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 21:23:04 (ZULU) 


Anybody have any experience with the McMillan A4 stock?

I purchased one from John Baier at Tactical Stocks off the Sniper Country Emporium. What he didn't tell me was the stock doesn't come with a recoil pad. The end of the stock is just the cutoff fiberglass! I guess I should have known better.

I emailed John and he said he would sell me a McMillan spacer system for $72, but I really don't need anything but a normal pad (also don't want to buy anything else from him if I don't have to).

I tried asking John which Pachmayr recoil pad would fit, but he hasn't returned my emails. Guess he already made the sale so I'm on my own now?

Anyway, you guys have been a lot of help to me in the past so I'm hoping somebody has some info on what recoil pad will fit correctly. It's the McMillan A4 stock for a Remington long action.

Thanks in advance,


dk <>
Florida, - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 00:05:04 (ZULU) 

Right now a lot of Afghans are thinking, "Bullshit.  I didn't sign up for this.  Bin Laden blew up the American's buildings, let bin Laden fight them."

Winter is coming.  No provisions.  No resupply.  Northern Alliance gets resupplied by the Americans.  That would stink.  I bet they find a way to screw him.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 00:16:25 (ZULU) 

The Taliban after saying they did not know where Bin-asso was, today have stated they contacted him and ask him to leave Afghanistan. Their asses are sweatin now.


drmarc <>
Hillbilly, USA - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 00:39:08 (ZULU) 

Couple of mornings ago one of the local radio stations did a phone interview with the retired Major that runs Jane's.  He had a couple of interesting comments.  One of which was that there is also an ethnic issue here.  Bin Laden & some of his buddies are Arabs (originally Yemeni).  Afgani's supposedly hate Arabs.  Recall similar references in Kipling.

So-if things get tight, some of the indigs might take the opportunity to repay old grudges and make some money at the same time.

WR Moore <>
VA, USA - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 00:39:25 (ZULU) 

Darrel, call McMillan and they will help you. A friend of mine bought an HTG stock through the mail that came without a pad and he sent it to McMillan and had it back within 2 weeks. They'll put a plain one on for you and fit it perfectly for about $65. You can do it yourself but I'm not sure what size Pachmyer pad would fit the A4 or your mechanical abilities. If you're like me it's better to send it out ;) I know the HTG takes a medium and they run about $35 delivered because I had to buy a brown one for my HTG stock and send it to McMillan. I guess they only carry black. You can get to McMillan by clicking on my name. They'll at least be able to point you in the right direction.

As far as John, sometimes he's slow on the e-mail but he's not bad to deal with. Try to call him. I bought a floorplate from him and it took a little while to get ahold of him.

Rob01 <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 00:53:38 (ZULU) 


You and me are both 'puter challenged... but I copied the link into the URL box, so it should be available at the bottom of this post. Click "CatShooter" ;))

The rancor is now four pages long, and Rod is getting hammered pretty damn hard, and for whatever reason, he won't defend himself.

I can't speak to the Marine Sniper stuff... but I know that he has signed his name with a "Doctor Rod Ryan, Ph.D." in articals for the old Tactical Shooter Magazine... and that's easy to clear up... just requires a school and a date, to clear that up.

He has now been listed on the "Phony Snipers" WebSite"

... I can't speak to any of this, as I don't know him other that that I was at Storm for 7 days, and won't post on the SOCNET site on either side of this... but those of you that know him, please ask him to clear this up... his reputation is going down the drain, plus this could ruin his school... the community is too small for this to just go away by itself. If it is just ignored, it will grow.


CatShooter <>
Save a mouse, shoot a cat!, - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 01:15:46 (ZULU) 


Read with amusement Bolt's post about the gent building the 6.5 X .284 on a S...Sa...Sa...Sav...well you know what I mean.

Looks like Bolt is finally going to move into the 21st century! He can join Pat and myself extolling the virutes of that fine cartridge...

Now if we can just get CDC and that "feline molester" Catshooter to sign on we'll be making some progress! Undude would be a good addition, too, but suspect the 6.5 is to much of a "wussie" caliber for the likes of him!

Blacktail season starts Saturday and runs for about six weeks. Yahoo!

All for now...


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 02:28:02 (ZULU) 

.....First air mission over bin laden's territory.....drop leaflets posting the reward, dead or alive......

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 02:39:18 (ZULU) 

Yep.  Plus our standard deal of three hots and a cot if they don't fight us.  We don't want thier land and have no quarrel with the people.  But we fully intend to kill thier 'guests' and destroy the government that shielded those 'guests'.

Wes:  I'd love a new 6.5X.284.  Now, how do we convince my lovely yet terrifying wife?

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 03:06:18 (ZULU) 

I didn't intend to kick over a hornet's nest.  We're all hurting and in pain, but, yeah, I'll stick to the point of SC from now on.

Marco: just for the record I've spent years at "Long Range Military and Police Shooting":  24 kms at just a tad over 1 MOA on a pretty usual basis.  That's HE and whatnot in the 155mm realm albeit, but all the rest is pretty much the same.  We didn't measure it out in grains and most of it was not boatail.  That was in the IDF.  Now I'm with the police branch, as I bowed out to the military at age 48.  I've been working out with an M98 (!) and do pretty well at 600m in 168 grain Sierra M825 (7.62 Nato).  Not much hunting is done here in Israel- we've daily got other considerations. Unfortunately they are of the type that you have all just been exposed to so massively.

Born in Jackman Maine in '46, my Dad taught me and my brother gunnery from the time we could lift them.  Precision shooting came when I cleared snapping turtles from ponds in upstate N.Y. in the 60's: try it sometime. Gets you sllloooowww and pinpoint.

 I'd like a world where neither I nor my sons (or yours or my neighbors)would have to be warriors, but it doesn't seem to be on the next ridge.

  I'm working on a different ghillie- burlap is heavy, soaks up moisture, and chokes me up. (They may not see me, but they'll sure hear me coughing).  I'm trying out plastic coarse weave tarpulin sheeting, unraveled and painted, on a net base.  Lightweight, sheds water, no choke, and easy for tying into.  Feedback you guys?....Yirmi

Yirmi Zanton <>
Rehovot, Israel - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 07:48:51 (ZULU) 

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 10:17:33 (ZULU) 

Krauthammer says "Taliban must die":

Wall Street Journal agrees.  They're right.:

We didn't create bin Ladin and Taliban:

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 10:31:10 (ZULU) 

Brief intel on battlefield:

Use proxies, give proxies fire support and shut of opfor supplies.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 13:02:24 (ZULU) 

I am civilian once again, weird feeling...

today was my last day of serving as an Airmobile NCO, the Battalion commander ordered me in front of the whole battalion this morning and after reading up loud the (his-)story of my eleven years old career he gave me a special issued Unit Coin for valour (?)(made out of gold, only 2 have been passed out sofar),  and thanked me for my input, guess my devotion did'nt go unnoticed afterall, the old man actually made me blink away a small teardrop, and yesterday the boys gave me an going-away party, one i'll remember for quite some time and which gave me a head-ache from here to Tokio and back again...still feeling wouzy...


thanks for the info on the Badger screws.

About Torsten's posting, the word "metafor" comes to mind, T did not mean you americans as people that look like fat arrogant metlesome rich kids, but it sure is the way how most of the world sees America, the country who is always sticking its nose in other country's affairs, (personally i thank god it always has and as it did during the second world excercise '40-'45, otherwise we dutchies would not be speaking dutch nowadays but german like T ;)or worse, russian)

To Kevin R. Mussack ;

Could you be so kind to scan part of one of your 7 1/2 minute maps and e-mail it to me, would like to see how yours look like.

Brian K Sain;

Sounds you had a very interesting summit, care to tell some more about it, like what kind of shooting you fella's did and or new trends qua weapons, ammo and equipment?

About the Accuracy Int'l sticks, if you do ever decide to buy one, my advise is to go for the AWM in .338 LM and leave the .308 cause i have bad experiences with the .308 version, not repeatable accuracy beyond 300 meters, for the money they ask these days for an AI one can buy much better Remmie's and other sticks like the TRG22.

Must admit, the stock is superb and one of a kind.

Wes or Lito or anyone else who hunts coyotes, varmints and deer;

Could some of you fella's give me any more info about hunting in the USA, things like;

Is it allowed for me to go hunting in Kentucky?

Do i need to buy some sort of license?

When and where and what am i allowed to hunt?

Etc etc.


No need to explain/ justify to me who you are, used your name and posting just to get a message through, and your free to share your thoughts on the matter, only i personally thought it was starting to become more and more of a political discussion site instead of a Sniper site.

Anyways, welcome to the Roster.

The ghillie plastic thing sounds intersting, but my personal experience with plastic camouflage is that when it gets wet it becomes shiny, i've spotted many O.P.'s made by our recce platoon when it had rained because it was camouflaged with the standerd camo nets and they could have just as easily hung a sign above their heads saying "i am here" because it attracted attention.

Curious about how your going to work around this quality of plastic.

Cy'all around,


Marco <>
NL - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 14:55:20 (ZULU) 

Well, it seems the old adage "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" might not be true.  The Howa is turning into a possible shooter.  I took the original Ramline (yeah, that's right) stock, floated and bedded it. I had the local 'smith put an 11-deg. crown on it and sweeten the trigger.  Topped it off with a Lisenfeld 8x56 optical tube. (has anyone ever heard of them?  It's a dynamite scope, but it's killing me trying to find out who makes it....)Using Sierra 168-gr hpbtm bullets, stuffed in LC 1972 match cases, in front of 44gr Varget, out of an 18" bbl (it's gotta get in and out of the patrol car with me, ya know) it is so far turning in 1.5" groups at 300.  Actually got tired of making head shots yesterday. Well, actually, I ran out of ammunition, but will roll some more tonight. Anyone know if McMillan makes a stock for this beast?

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 15:21:38 (ZULU) 


You can hunt here, but it will require some planing.

If you are visiting friends, and want to hunt, then they can find places for you to go... just contact the state's hunting license dept to find out the rules.  If you are going to come here JUST to go hunting, I would sugest you go out to Montanna, Wyoming, or somewhere in the "Big" country, and get a guide... they will take care of all the paper work, and you can get Prairie Dogs, Coyotes, and dear/antalope in one trip


CatShooter <>
Save a mouse, shoot a cat!, - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 15:25:45 (ZULU) 

Hey Marco, well old chap, tommorow is the first day of the rest of your life!! congrats on becoming a civie again, it feels wierd at first, but you get used to it, well almost, my Dad says "once a soldier, always a soldier".ah hunting in the US questions ?? I tell ya, once the hunting bug bites !!! yer bitten for good, heres some good advice, hunt all you can before some woman decides she has taken a liking to you and has better ideas of where and how you should spend your time and money.My African Safari rapidly turned into a new bed, sofa and book case, book case!!, she can't even read!!(thud smack, ow that hurt, maybe she can read afterall) must be Bear and Deer season over there some time between now and Christmas.Dates for your calender, 05-14.04.02.+ 02-12.08.02.  Roe Bucks, Scotland, bring,BDU's,your Winnie, LRF,Bino's and beer tokens.Guess who just filled out a leave pass for next year, my whole year revolves around hunting."Hunting's not your hobby,It's your lifestyle"quoted from the "I am leaving you speach", by my ex wife.

Your Leica should be here Monday, if it is in stock(along with my Aimpoint 7000) can you read German? I will scan and mail you this test report on the Menke gun in 6.5x284 when it appears..regards Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 15:35:32 (ZULU) 


looking forward to the leica.

Meine grosmutter ist eine Deutsche frau, so ich verstehe deutsch shon und kan es auch lesen, nur die sprache ist nicht mehr was es sein sollte.

So also looking forward to reading the article about the 6,5x.284 menke stick.

And yup, the hunting virus has caught me. Big time. ;)

cya around,


Marco <>
NL - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 17:39:13 (ZULU) 

Charles S Hunt, oooww, every time I hear some one mention a Howa, it makes me mad that I was dumb enough to sell mine, and the Howa's no pigs ear, if you check the Emporium, George Gardner is selling a 300WSM, there is a link on the post to some pictures, among the pictures is a Howa in a Mcmillan stock.

Lisenfeld is a German company,their scopes are quite popular in England, and have a small following here in Germany, I would rate them along with, Meopta, Doctor optik, I did hear about reticles breaking on heavey recoiling rifles,I am not sure if they are made here or imported and named here, I know that they had a stand at this years Jagd & Fischen(outdoor sports, hunting/fishing show) I will see what I can find out.  Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 17:49:27 (ZULU) 

"support for Osama bin Laden by Afghans is non-existent", "young men have been vigorously opposing...a jihad" and The Taliban is trying to throw bin Laden overboard to save their own ass.  Bin Ladin is denying everything and blaming Israel.

Some holy warrior.  A regular Sulemain the Magnificient.

What if you had a Jihad and nobody came?  Nobody on your side, anyway.

Well, as long as we're all worked up, let's settle some old accounts and see that this kind of thing is much less likely to happen in the future.

CDC' <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 17:50:54 (ZULU) 

Ref: Iran

If we gotta go the distance with these guys I got a tip for anybody headed that way.

Burried near a residence not far from the old U.S. Embassy there is a cherry Colt Combat Commander.

It sure would be cool to get it back.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 17:58:15 (ZULU) 


   Thanks for the link. I read it all today and it is really something!! I can't believe he isn't responding to all the aligations.

If it were me and I was genuine I would tear those boys a new one. I don't know Rod so I can't comment one way or the other but I don't understand why he wouldn't clear it up to protect his name and reputation.

   If the aligations are true its sad and will probably hurt him and leave a lot of egg on the faces of guys who have went to bat for him. Hopefully he will clear it up so it will die if not it could really hurt SMTC.

Pat <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 19:16:21 (ZULU) 

MARCO:  The New England Sniper Summit is a four day event.  Two day seminar/Two day competition.  This year it was in Springfield Massachusetts.  It is a police related sniper competition (as is Sniperweek in Florida).  These things are set up for cops/military with the overwhelming emphasis on street policework.  It is fast paced, down and dirty work and much more like "IDPA with a bolt gun" rather than the "long range death" thing that gets all the attention.  Ft. Devens is close by so some SF guys showed up.  They had M24s with Leup. M3s. 1 MOA click adjustments aren't the best thing to have when shooting at a dime sized target on the run.  It was a lesson for those guys in house to house and hostage rescue  type shooting.  They were pretty cocky the first day until they got spanked pretty hard (those guys ain't used to losing).

" WHATINTHEHELLDOYAMEANIHITTHEFREAKINHOSTAGE !!!! "  By the second day the berets were in their pockets and they had lightened up a lot and were saying "Ohhhhh, this is what ya'll do".  We share the title (sniper) but it is a different type of shooting altogether.  Fun was had by all however and the comraderie was high per the norm with Spec ops/SWAT folk.  The courses included movers, position shooting (many excluding a bi-pod), known and UK distances out to 300 and all between, target ID and teamwork.  Problems were given to the two man Teams that had to be solved before the shots could be taken, etc.  All under a stopwatch.  If you fiddled around at all, you lost.  Again, very fast paced.  The usual cast of characters taught classes.  Derrick Bartlett of Snipercraft/Ft. Lauderdale PD, John Peterson of the Sigarms Academy/SF Res., Andy Sendry of Miami-Dade FD gave a presentation on hydration, several officers detailed incidents where bad guys were killed, one officer presented a call-out where a baby was hung out a door and shot. The commander caved to political pressures at the time and the bad guy later gave up when he ran out of bullets and beer.  The SWAT commander tried to sell the Sniper out and later committed suicide on the third anniversary of the incident, etc.  The rifles consisted of a gaggle of Rem 700s, three Winchesters, two Savages, a Nesika Bay/Krieger and an HS Precision.  Scopes were Leupold, a few Nightforce, one Redfield and one ITT.  168 BTHP to a man.  I guess the 175s are just of no consequence out to 300.  The winners were friends from Connecticut.  Hope the green beanies get a shot at Osama.  They were chompin' at the bit.  God bless 'em.

Later bro, Brian

PS:  Ya know, it is damn hard to contain oneself when a gaggle of wild turkeys crosses a high line right of way, 200 yards out and you got a suppressed, tack drivin' .308 right there close by.  Stop the truck, hold my beer . . .

I didn't do it but don't think for a minute that it didn't cross my mind.

Ya'll be safe.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, September 28, 2001, at 19:48:59 (ZULU) 


I posted two entries again, an article -

Painting Primer

- from buk, and an expanded version of the review on

David Tubb's Final Finish

, from Rob.

And here is midnight just around the corner again...


Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, September 28, 2001, at 21:45:44 (ZULU)

i need some help...i have some israeli gas masks and some of the filters have blue strings,,some have yellow strings  and some have white strings.....does anyone out there know what the different color strings indicate ?...someone told me that the blue strings may be just practice filters and that the yellow ones might be NBC filters ...thanking you in advance for your help.

E.P. FORD <>
Easton, MA, USA - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 02:28:44 (ZULU) 

I know the mounting & leveling of the scope & base has been answered numerous times, I just figured I would put my 2-cents in.  I basically use a combination of several techniques mentioned & have had great luck.  Assuming you have either a 1 or 2 piece NON-TAPERED Weaver style base I first mount the base to the receiver, secondly level the rifle form muzzle to butt using a small carpenters level on the base itself.  If you have a tapered base and a straight contour barrel, you can try placing the level on the barrel.  Onse level along its verticle axis, I have drawn a line down the center of the recoil pad from top to bottom to use as a reference point.  Now assuming the action is mounted straight in the stock (not canted), I hang a weighted string from ceiling to the bottom of the butt or recoil pad and adjust the rifles cant left or right until the string is exactly parallel with the line on the recoil pad, thus confirming the rifle level on the horizontal axis. I then hang a second weighted string across the room looking through the barrel to center the string with the bore.  (This may be easier with a second set of hands to move the string for you until you have it ligned up with the center of the bore).  Now place the scope in the rings, making sure everything remains level, line up the verticle cross hair with the boresighted string and carefully tighten the ring screws in cilinder head fashion.  I then re-check both strings and finally put the level on the windage & elevation turrents to double check.  On some scopes, there is some play with the target type nobs meaning if you grab hold of them you can move them slightly so if you are not exactly level when using them as a reference point after being careful to keep all the strings aligned, dont worry.

This may seem long winded, but of you have the space, you can leave the strings in place for the next time you mount a scope or need to check if everything is still as it should be.


RB <>
- Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 05:44:39 (ZULU) 

hello gents,  Lt. Chris here.

I was looking at a remington tactical rifle webpage and saw a rifle named the 40xb which looks identical to the 700p except the price was around $1500, about $700 more than the 700p.  It didn't get into what the difference was so I wanted to know if anyone out there could tell me the difference between the two and if its worth it.

Christian F <>
phila, pa, - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 07:11:23 (ZULU) 

Hey, youz New England guyz...

... there's a Carlos Hathcock match in New Jersey (Jim Mitchel, Tony, an' "Joisey" Steve, listen up!!).

I'm going, Andy's Dad (AND Andy!!) are coming, FireDude and Ken Hunter may come... it ain't all the great a match (300yds), but it's run by the Marines, it's cheap ($25), and all us Rosterfarians can go have a berger, a beer, and tell lies for the rest of the day!!

Click on "CatShooter" for the full skinny.

Anyone got a link to the Remington "Tactical" website... their regular website doesn't list their tactical stuff.


CatShooter <>
- Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 17:31:16 (ZULU) 


Remington Tactical.  Would that be the Remington Law Enforcement ( site listed in the Hot Links?


Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 17:48:46 (ZULU) 


I assume you bought the same stock at the same price as i did.Knowing how mutch aMcMillan costs i asked John a few questions.He answered all and i got what he said i will.He also shiped the stock before i mailed the money order for it.I am sure this is a misunderstuding.

I getinng some news from europian press that claim that osama has approached the Rusian mafia to excanche opium for nukes.Is that a figmend of somebodys imaginacion or is some true in it?

Jim <>
marathon, FL, USA - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 19:01:48 (ZULU) 


The Remington 40-XB is custom built by the Remington custom shop.  The action is pulled off the line before final finishing and surface ground along the ventral side of the receiver 180 degrees to remove any chance of flexing.  The action is blueprinted (trued up), clip-slotted and drilled and threaded for a match vernier sight on the left hand side of the receiver.  A select barrel 27.25 inches long is chambered and installed by the Remington smiths.  The XB weighs 10.25 pounds versus 9 pounds for an out of the box 26" PSS.  I speculate that the barrel taper is slightly different than the PSS to account for the extra weight.  These data are from the Remington LEO catalog and John Hinnant's comments in "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Precision Rifle Barrel Fitting" (most HIGHLY recommended!).

Most of us yank the barrel out of our stock Remingtons after a few years as we strive for greater precision and accuracy.  Obviously, unless you are a master machinist with a few grand in tooling, you must pay someone to do the rebarreling, restocking, re-tuning, etc. when that time comes.  Whether you want the Remington custom shop to do it or one of the superb smiths often mentioned within these hallowed pages to do it is up to you.

On other topics, I was watching CNBC while eating lunch.  There's a frigging talking bimbo with satellite photos of Osama yo Mamma's training camps (alleged) and a retired General walking her through how to attack the friggin place.  To me, this type of open discussion is tantamount to treason and should not be tolerated nor forgiven. The retired mouthpieces should be jerked up tight, the asswipes that are feeding the media information should be hunted down and exterminated like the worthless excrement that they are and the media should be tried in court for unauthorized disclosure of classified information.  I am livid that the fourth estate still does not understand the grave situation with which the U.S. is faced.  To them, it is just another news day.  One person dies because of their carelessness...just ONE... and Billy goes on a road trip.   Errrrrgh!

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 20:24:03 (ZULU) 

Okay, let's try this again...

To all who gave advice on AR accuracy trouble shooting, I thank you.  There are some whom I haven't been able to reply to directly off-line.  I'm not ignoring you, just rather busy all day at work, and moving house at night that I haven't had time to sit and type from that 'puter.  Personal thanks are coming.  Now if I can only get to a range to apply those tips...

Christian, the 40X is remy's 700 target model.  Tuned & trued action, etc, provided by their custom shop.  2 basic centerfire actions, solid bottomed (single shot) and repeater.  Come in SHORT ACTION only, so the repeaters are limited to cartridges similar in size to the .308.  The repeaters are also slotted for stripper clip loading.  Other differences will be bbl length and stock type/design.  I use a 40X for long range, a .30-.338, and must remove the bolt to eject a loaded round (fired brass comes out just fine though).  Check out the custom shop stuff at:

Cheap, accurate, .223?  Crazy as it sounds, for $3.96 at Wal-Mart the UMC cartridges (yellow box) 55gr FMJ shoot great.  I've used them personally in 4 AR's and have had friends try them in theirs too.  The WORST I've gotten is 3/4 MOA (at 200 yards).  Haven't tried them past 200 though... on paper.  For short to short/medium predator/varmint work they're great.

All take care,

Outta here,


Caison <>
De, USA - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 20:26:42 (ZULU) 

Okay, okay,

I try and get some info out and when it finally works, someone else fills in on the answer!  Good reply on the 40X Bill0249.

I've felt that way about the news many times too.  Remember when the B-2 was first unveiled?  That "journalist" who had a private plane fly overhead to get the photos should have been shot down, and if he'd survive that then imprisoned for espionage.  And don't all these retired vets have something else to do, or is it that 15 minutes of fame thing?

Oops, off my soapbox, recommence the shooting talk...

Outta here,


Caison <>
De, USA - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 20:36:09 (ZULU) 


I'm having a busy weekend, and tonight I've posted two items as articles which appeared here on the Duty Roster:

I Am The Flag Of The United States of America

We'll go forward from this moment

And the following under the Announcements:

October 13, 14 - Basic Defensive Pistol Course, BadLands Tactical Training Facility;

November 15-18, 2001 - Basic Long Range Precision (Sniper) Rifle Course, BadLands Tactical Training Facility


Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 20:47:22 (ZULU) 

Re: the match I was trying to put on down here in November.  Ain't gonna happen.  Too much activity at McClellan right now and we would probably get bumped off of the range.  All of the reserve components use the place.

Sorry 'bout that.


Gooch <>
- Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 22:33:39 (ZULU) 

Here are all the elements:  Underground labrinths, massive opium, weapons of mass destruction, comically evil villians.  All we need now is  Sean Connery and Pussy Galore:,6903,560772,00.html

Be sure to check out the links.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 01:13:37 (ZULU) 


>"All we need now is Sean Connery and Pussy Galore"<

You take Sean Connery, and I'll take Pussy Galore!!


CatShooter <>
Pussy Galore... she's what's for dinner :)), - Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 02:09:39 (ZULU) 

Remington Custom Shop, any body know if the custom shop 700's have the exactly the same  barrel/reciever thread(size /Pitch etc)as the production line rifles,and are the actions supposed to be blue printed,( I mailed Remington asking exactly what work they did on the custom shop rifles but got a neither here nor there answer the first time and ignored the second) I have a 700 mountain rifle Custom shop job, one of the bolt lugs didn't mate up, and the rear screw hole for the scope mounts was drilled off set, (quality control!!) no problem to fix, but a pain in the ass from a so called custom rifle, any way with all mount holes redrilled and tapped to 8-40 and the bolt lugs machined to fit the recievers lugs, barrel set back the thing turned into a real performer, figured maybe some one has the answers.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 06:23:31 (ZULU) 

40XB- this is/was the benchrest version of the 40X.  Used to be a 20 inch barrel of much fatter contour than the regular varmint barrel, some came with aftermarket 2 oz triggers.  Stock also had flat bottom on fore end.

Believe the clip slots & target sight holes on the receiver were only on the 40XC (National Match) version.  Been too long since I've seen one.

WR Moore <>
VA, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 07:29:35 (ZULU) 

On 40-Xs (40-X? 40-XB, 40-XB/R, and 40-XBBR)...

I have owned 14 of these over my somewhat shiftless/wasted life, and still currently own 7.  35 years ago, I shot against Mike Walker (and got creamed), the man that was responsible for the 40-X program, so I will throw a bit of light on it.


There are two series of 40s... the Match/Varmint rifles, and the Benchrest rifles... there ARE differences.

All of the Match/Varmint Grade 40-XBs, reguardless if single shot, or repeater, are marked (Stamped!) 40-X on the side of the left receiver, opposite of the ejection port... the "B" part of the designation is the last digit of the serial number, as in "XXXXXX B".

There are NO match rifles marked "40-XB"

The first 40-X rifles were Carbon-steel receivers and cro-moly barrels... these date in the early 60's... by 1965, the barrels were stainless.  Some years back (I don't know when), the receivers of the 40-XB Match Rifles went to stainless.

All 40 series rifles are made on the short action... there never was a long action 40-X.

In the early years, there were two barrel weights, both 27.5", a medium (similar contour to the Varmint Special, but longer) called the H-1, and a straight heavy barrel called the H-2 (the current barrel)... now there is only one contour (the H-2).

They are available in single shot, and repeater.  Of the repeaters, ONLY the 308 repeaters are clip slotted at the factory... If you order a repeater in another caliber, like .223 or 22-250, it is not clip slotted.

The actions use the same barrel threads and same dimentions as the standard actions, BUT the 40 series actions are NOT taken from the standard production line and "trued", they are made (and serial numbered) in a different facility.

The actions are NOT "Blue printed" (there is no such thing as a blue printed action! no matter what your local 'smith says)... they are simply made true and square to spec, from the start... all the 40-X rifles I've owned had both lugs mated, all screw holes were true and in line, and they were impecable.

My second 40-XB, a .308 40-XB/R (/R for repeater), was bought in 1966, and has a serial number of 0466xxB... a 40-XBBR I bought last year has a number of 0631xxB. That's 16,400-ish rifles in in the 40-X series, made 35 years, or an average of 470 a year, or 9 a week... and you want to know why there is a 10 month wait???

The standard barrel length for the 40-XB is 27.5", but they can be special ordered with shorter barrels... I have seen some in 26" and 24" from the factory.  The early crowns were flatfaced, with a very small 45 degree counter sink type crown (but done on a lathe)... the current crown is a full faced, concave "Dish crown"... both are equally accurate.

As to weight... 10.25 pounds... HA! (as Pat would say).  The barreled action ALONE of a 27.5" 40-X weighs 8.5 pounds (9 pounds for a single shot)... add 3 pounds for a stock, and your up to 11.5 to 12 pounds.

By the time you have scoped it, you are in the 13+ to 14+ weight range.

The benchrest rifles are the 40-XBBR, and they are marked as follows... serial number XXXXXX B, and the notation "Remington Model 40XBR" is electro etched on the left side of the receiver, opposite the ejection port... the electro etching for the model number was specified (to minimize metal stress) from the very first "BR" action, and has been that way every since.  All 40-XBBR actions were, and still are, Carbon-steel, NOT stainless, and all are single shot.

The early 40-XBBRs were very heavy 26" barrels... (my 26", .222 Mag 40-XBBR is a brute)... then the brenchrest associations changed their weight classifications, and so Rem went to shorter barrels to drop a lot of weight. For a while, 20" barrels were very "in vogue", but now they are 24", unless ordered shorter.

The stocks for the 40-XBBR are made by McMillan, and are a special completely foam filled "shell" stock (to cut down weight), so the BR guns come in at 10.5 pounds... but if you restock them with a "real" stock, they go up to 12 to 13 pounds.

Both the SINGLE-SHOT match, and the BR rifles can be had with a very good, triple lever, 2 oz trigger (it has NO SAFETY!!)... the repeaters come with a very good double lever (adjustable from the outside) target trigger, which looks like, but is different than, the 700 trigger.

In '66, about twenty 40-Xs in 6mm-International were made for the AMU to compete in the olympics... these had a special 2 oz trigger that had adjustable LOP hand built into them, but all the rest of the triggers over the years have been the same.


Peter-L... the custom shop "other" rifles like the mountain rifle, are built on standard rifles from the production lines, and the quality is just that... all the custom shop does for those is the stock work.


CatShooter <>
Pussy Galore... she's what's for dinner :)), - Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 15:16:54 (ZULU) 

Lito, Thanks for posting the 40-X info. It sheds some light on a very cool rifle.

I had forgotten how much additional work that it takes to clean a factory barrel. Almost all of my shooting over the past couple of years has been using Krieger, K&P, Cooper and Mike Rock barrels. Those tubes clean up with very minimal work. I have a buddy's factory 700 that I cleaned up for him yesterday, what a chore! I know we have beaten this issue to death in the Archives, but that factory barrel just loves to hang on to to copper! After what seemed to be a thousand patches, brush strokes, and solvent changes I finally achieved success. I was beginging to feel like Bolt with his lapping bar!!

A fitted custom barrel just about cost justifies itself if you add up the additional cleaning products, patches and time required to keep the factory tube clean! (and that is obviously not even considering the added accuraccy gains)

back to laundry........

Michael <>
Should be shooting instead of laundry!, - Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 18:15:30 (ZULU) 


My name is Lynn Harper.  I came across this site and was hoping that you guys could help me out.

There is a guy that lives in my town.  He claims to have been in the army and was a sniper.  Sure it is not a crime to claim to be those things, but the problem is that my 15 year old son totally idolizes this guy.  On my first impression, he seems like a freak.  I asked some of my guy friends what they thought and they seem to feel that he may have been in the army but they don’t think he was a sniper.  Now this worries me because my son goes over to his house and learns shooting from him.  I’m just a little worried about this guy.  True, he is not doing anything wrong but that he may be lying for whatever reason makes me nervous and he seems a little odd.  I tried talking my son out of going over there, but you know how a fifteen year old can be.  So I was at this guys house to pick up my son and I decided to inquire about his training.  The only thing he showed me was a sniper school certificate.  I didn’t know what to believe.  But the award looks too simple looking.  He also told me names of his instructors and class number and a bunch of other stuff.  He graduated around 1991 or 97 from Bening Georgia (I had a hard time reading the last digit.). I don’t know if it is real or not.  I just have this gut feeling. I really need to know.  And this isn’t the easiest thing to go out and compare.  So I was hoping that someone here could help me.  By skimming through the messages here, I can tell that you guys are for real.  This is my only hope.  I feel this is the safest and easiest way to figure out.  I thought about contacting the Army but that is too much.  And plus I don’t want to raise any suspicion.  I want to keep it quiet.  Like I said he is not commiting any crime.  I just need to know for my sons benefit.

Maybe somebody could email me ( a scan of an award (names blocked out of course) so I can finally figure out if this guy is for real or not.  If he is, I don’t want to jump the gun and ruin a friendship for my son. But if he isn’t then I am going to force my son to stay away whether he likes it or not.

Thank You guys for your help, much appreciated.


Lynn Harper,

concerened mother.

Lynn Harper <>
- Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 19:02:59 (ZULU) your email is no good... your registration can't fly until you get this sorted out... I had to post this note to you here... since... I can't reply to your email....

Hogs - sorry for the admin traffic....

Hope all is well. The Major is healing quite well....

CatShooter suggested that we trade the horses for a nice Harley... now that sounds like a plan to me... then we can go to rolling thunder next year...Harleys don't kick you or run over you if they get spooked... :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 21:54:32 (ZULU) 


(Suprise-I am posting again!)

to add a bit more detail on Brian Sain's post: Two of the Remingtons there were NorCal Precisions, one was a rifle based on a Mauser 98 (large ring is what I was told). The Winchesters were the Sharpshooters with McMillan stocks and stainless barrels.

I have noticed more and more police sniper rifles staring to get some customization or "breathed on" by a gunsmith. It looks like the days of "leave it alone-it came from the factory that way" are ending.

The touches were in the areas of barrels and triggerwork.

Variable scopes appear to be the rule now for police. Not that long ago this was the opposite. The quality of the scopes on the rifles are top of the line. A far cry form the "deer rifle scope from evidence" seen in the past........Leupold is the #1 brand I have seen for numbers. Big time changes in the area of night vision.

      The ammo is 168 for the police, 175 for the military. I spoke offline with Brian about this, and the reason I, and others, are sticking with the 168 is that the trajectory is very very similar to the tactical loads we use and the newer less penetrative rounds we are testing. The accuraccy is there with the 168's as far as we can justify shooting them.

A good exercise that the devious range masters thought up was to have an unloaded rifle and start running downrange with it at the buzzer. Touch right in front of your target and run back to the 100 yard line.

Now set up and fire at a bad guy' cranial vault. However, the cranial vault is devided into points and even worse, two manniken (sp) hostage heads are set up in front of the target blocking all but a narrow sliver of the bad guys head.  Any touch of the bullet onto a hostage is a bad shoot. Load your rifle, get into position, find and ID your own target and oh yeah- do it all in 60 seconds or it doesn't count.

Off topic- any one else hear that Gabe Suarez went to jail for fraud?

Take care gents-Mike T

Mike T <>
- Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 22:43:55 (ZULU) 


Now that it's startin' to get a little cooler out, and I'm going to get to go shooting again soon when my derned test is over (I'm supposed to be studying now ssshhhhhhh).  It gots me to thinkin'...


I 'figger some of the dinero could also go to one of the many charities for the rescue workers and their families.

Just a little thought.

Later Guys,

Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, MD, - Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 23:14:38 (ZULU)