Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 2001

Just bought a Remington 700 light tactical with the 20 inch barrel.

Anybody shooting one of these want to recommend a load that I can use out to 500 meters?

Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville , pa, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:10:56 (ZULU)

Im building a rifle on a model 11 Savage, and I need some advise.

1. With the piller bedding this rifle uses, sould the only contact point between action and stock be the pillers themselves or should I bed the tang as well?

2. Should I bed all around the recoil lug or just behind it? I have heard removing all contact except behind the lug will enhance accuracy. Also, should I add a barrel pad when I bed, and if so, how big should it be?

3. Can anyone guide me to a quality aftermarket stock, resonably priced, for a LEFT hand Savage 11?

I realize these questions are rather elementary, but i dont have access to a decent riflesmith locally. I would be greatful for any advice or help.

Tom Johnson <tejohnson_99@yahoo.com>
Ashland, Ky, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 01:39:43 (ZULU)

Ok, my last comments on the tank thing. I have no illusions of doing damage to a tank. I would NEVER use a 50 against a tank. Can’t crawl quietly with the dam thing and can’t get low enough afterwards. :-)

Marco - Yes, I will take a shot at a tank commander or driver at 300 to 500 meters with a 7.62 sniper rifle. If I can get them to button up then they are vulnerable to anti tank fire and my task is done. Again, I will not hurt the tank. This scenario started as an exercise living in the insurgent world and not of land battle 2010. The insurgent world is the world that I have lived in since 1967. I do not know land battle 2010. I do know that if you get into the insurgent world with your mind in land battle 2010 then I will hand you your pretty tanks just as the Mujahideen did to the APC. If properly set in then tank crews will see M2 50s nicely but will miss the little sniper. AS I stated, I am not trained in the land battle 2010 scenario, I only know what I have done to those that do live that scenario. You may wish to check out Soviet Doctrine in this very area. As SLUGBOY stated, if better assets are available then by all means use them but in the limited war scenario then there are all sorts of possibilities. Each is an available tool that needs to be exploited to the fullest. As far as the tankers kicking butt at 4000 meters, that is very true, they were against known enemies at known locations using BIG equipment.

Mike – The “bubble suits” themselves I feel are useless, as they will cause you to become a heat casualty if not careful. I rank them along side of the “stealth predator suits”. Try a ghillie suit made of “other” materials and you will be surprised how well they work at night. Now they are worthless during the day.

My students did well on snaps and movers this day. Will see how they do Tuesday after a weekend of debauchery. :-)

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 02:41:22 (ZULU)

Gents,

All this talk of killing tanks is making me want to develop a depleted uranium core .308 bullet that can penetrate 12" of armor...

I agree with Rick on this one...take out the commander if possible and get them to button up and your job is done. Have we hashed this one out enough?

George, nice new web site. If I added anything it would be a narrative description to your thumbnails to describe what each rifle is and what work was done...

RUMOR CONTROL: Had a call today from a friend. He indicated that Barnes Bullets has just got a large government contract for a 168 gr. .308 bullet with their blue coating on it. Can anyone verify this? Sounds hokey to me, as I'm not putting anything coated down my bores, until proven. Moly didn't pan out and I don't view this as anything different. Comments...?

Does anyone know if Remington has included thier new safety on the PSS series of rifles? Doesn't make any sense to me. This whole safety thing sounds like a great chance for someone to produce the standard bolt shroud and sell it. I WOULDN'T want one on a tactical rifle of mine. This whole "save the children" thread is getting badly out of hand.

As a side note: Cougar sightings are way up in the valley. Oregon does not allow hunting with dogs any more. Wonder how long this is going to last when someone becomes mid-rats for the big kitty.

'Lito, Now THERE is a cat worthy of your efforts!

Range time tomorrow, if I can get the casual hunter crew off the short 100 and 200 yard range. Something about them not liking me to shoot over their heads...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 03:09:42 (ZULU)

To Marco

I would engage a TC out to 500 meters with 7.62 . I would not dare to engage the TI unit with 7.62 Nato. I would possibly try it with 338 LM with AP ammo out to 600 meters but only if there are friendlies also around i.e. I am not planning to damage the TI unit just for the fun of it if there are no TOW gunners close by to take the tank out.

Ken: I did not know about the shutters. Does anyone know whether T-80 or T-90 has those. I am not interested whether M1A1/A2 or Leapard 2 has them as I do not really see USA or Germany (or Sweden, or Norway) attacking Finland any time soon.

One more thing on IT. In some countries like Finland and Sweden even M1A1 does not have too much advantage from its better electronics. Usually the tank battle ranges here are 200-1500 meters and most of the time less than 1000m. Where M1A2 really shines is that its armor can withstand 125mm APFDS ammo made in Russia and it has a good cannon that can defeat anything Russia has ever produced. The easy pickings in Irak out to 4000 meters are not possible in most European conflicts because the environment is different i.e you do not have clear view that far out and if you do not then TI is not going to help you too much as it can not see through buildings or woods.

If we start talking about LandBattle 2010 or something similar, then in theory the new radars and automated anti´sniper guns will in theory kill all the snipers. In real life the sniper will be able to operate as there NEVER are enough of hi-tech goodies in the field.

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 03:41:06 (ZULU)

Does anyone know anything about UltraMax ammo? Do they sell direct? The reason I am asking is a guy at the Idaho sniper shoot told me that he was able to buy Federal Gold Match through them at LE price (and he was going to get back to me and hasn't). I haven't been able to find anything but UltraMax being sold through a distributor.

Thanks, Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 05:58:50 (ZULU)

Howdy folks!! happy 3-day'er

Peter Lincoln:

Be careful, fella. Try pickin up a phone, call collect, keep tryin', ha!HS will set you up with what you want. As far as paint 'rubbin' off in 18 months, make it a point when you call. But call first. I have a 05F in grey/black webbing, had it for 5 years with many a round thru it, does not need a 'spruce-up' yet. That is not saying that your's doesn't, but call first and see what HS will do for you. The web-site is just an intro to what we offer, we also have salespeople who deal with customers personally.

Pat:

Folks, this here rostah fella stopped by so I could take a gander at his fine ware, the 6.5 x 284. I think he thinks I'm nuts after the looksee I gave her.

I'm surprised his response wasn't:

BARRELMAKERS ARE SCREWY. we're an odd lot, Pat.

Didn't like the stock. HA!!

When the velocity goes awry, seat yer bullets out further. hahah. Hope for a 160 VLD .264" dia bullet, hahah.. Shoot round nose fatbodies. Double HA!

Pat keeps a very well maintained barrel, and me thinks the rest of us could take note from this.

Sidenote eh Pat, me thinks you have run abrasives thru that bore? Maybe not, but I could see some (very) light pitting which is usually from JB's. Someday, I'll make an article of it.. hah!

It's a shooter though, would have liked to headspace it, no gages at work, but as far as groove diameter and bore condition, plug away!! Looks twice as good as my .300 Winnie Pooh, and she has 500 left before she gets the rechamber.

'Lito, lito, lito:

Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet?? Hmmmm.... So you are saying a 1/12" twist in one barrel may not equal the RPM's in another 1/12" twist barrel at the same velocity? It will not spin the same 1 revolution per 12 inches of travel for (x) distance? Or are you saying that a bullet may not break as freely as one barrel to the next due to the land structure?

Dude, or undude, once it leaves the muzzle at (x) velocity, if it breaks clean from the crown, the rate of deceleration of gyration should be constant, depending on the bullet. It's like comets and shit, isn't it?? HAHAH... Devil's advocate, his right hand man am I.....

You should be able to compute the approximate RPM's necessary to stabilize a bullet. This could be connotated into an 'angular' formula, which would be quite broad, but nonetheless accurate and not precise. If the thing is spinning, whether at 50K Rpm or 40K Rpm, results are the same?? NO! Perhaps at a certain range.

I agree that the 'bullet upset' will occur with different forms of land and groove structure, which will deviate the bullet because of deformity, but not the twist rate itself.

Paul, I'm pickin' yer brain cuz even though yer an old fart who lives in a dumpster to shoot cats, your constructive mind is still in fairly good shape, hahah. I have a pretty good idea what the answer is, but you are better at proving it.

By the way, we've got some big kittys closing in on the Rapid City area, in fact there was a Puma in town a few weeks ago!!! Give me a heads up and I'll line you up with an 'Executive' style dumpster ghillie. hoo hah!

Goin' goose huntin in the morn', check youse guys later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:00:49 (ZULU)

Chris Fenico <nico1606@bellatlantic.net>
philadelphia, pa, usa - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:10:49 (ZULU)

Anyone know if it is possible to buy a M24 (the army issued sniper rifle) and if so where, and how much?

Chris Fenico <nico1606@bellatlantic.net>
philadelphia, pa, usa - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 06:24:44 (ZULU)

JR - "Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet??"

I can't speak for 'lito, but I believe he was referring to the spin remaining after having traveled several hundred yards.

Extrude a bullet through barrel 'A' and it's shape and mass will have a certain rotational moment of inertia. Extrude an identical bullet through barrel 'B', with different land/groove dimensions than barrel 'A', and it will have a different shape, and thus a different rotational moment of inertia.

The greater the moment of inertia an object has, the more rotational speed it will maintain in the face of resistance, such as air.

Add to this the aerodynamic differences between the two differently extruded bullets, and you end up with two bullets with different rotational moments of inertia, and with different aerodynamics attempting to slow their spin.

Even if both bullets were launched with identical velocities and rates of spin, one of the two will have lost more of it's spin than the other by the time they reach the 500 yard marker.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 07:50:10 (ZULU)

ARMOR:

Just a couple of last comments:

1. Sniper Employment vs. Armor in a conventional unit against armor

is the same as what has been stated here about making them button

up.

Only difference is that the defender also allows the lead echelons

to bypass and engages from behind or flanks, especially from urban

areas. Soviet doctrine was for the lead echelons to bypass such

areas and let the follow on units finish them. The AA units have

supplementary positions to engage them as they pass by. Shoot and

scoot to the supplementary or althernate position was the order of

the day for the TOWs etc.

So, they remain buttoned up for a very long time; prior to your

position, while passing it and beyond. The snipers role in this

scenario is far more important to protect the defenders against

infantry, although by helping encourage them to button up protects

revealing where your MGs etc. are.

This type of defense relies strongly supplemental and alternate

fighting positions.

2. There are plenty of places in Europe where M1s can engage at 4K.

In fact, Germany more or less sculpted their terrain along the

areas where the Soviets would have advanced to produce wide open

fields with patches of trees etc., for the defenders.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 12:50:39 (ZULU)

Hi guys, sorry for the long delay in any postings. Here's the latest UNCLASSIFIED stuff on the .408 testing.

First, the initial 13 guns are in production, of which 5 are still available in 6 weeks, perhaps less. I am responsible for the special applications developments on the gun. There are already changes in the bipod mounting system that will eliminate the long rod from under the barrel. Sorry, the new method is under wraps until a patent is established for the bipod and mounting system.

The Idaho III test was done to test the OPSINC suppressor and the initial version of the fire control computer (which by the way works for any caliber that we shot in Yuma Proving Grounds).

The suppressed gun shot under 1 MOA all the way to the test range of 1500 yards for the suppressor work. Time limited us to this range as we could not go any farther. Once the pictures are posted in the photo section, you'll see how the can is mounted to the barrel. The suppressor gains about 30 fps muzzle velocity over the standard brake and retains or gains accuracy over the standard system.

The suppressor also repeats it's zero perfectly when taken off and replaced. This was tested over and over on the 25th of August to determine it's repeatability and durability. She gets hot though, as do all suppressors. The OPSINC suppressor is all stainless steel construction and has no wear out point, there are no replacable baffles, etc in the can. It is designed to be drained in less than 6 seconds when fully submerged and tipped muzzle down to drain. The suppressor can be fired after the initial flush is done.

The suppressor is the quietest that I have tested on a long range rifle. Recoil is very mild as with the standard brake and watching bullet impact at 200 yards is easily done. At long ranges, 600 yards and more, a shooter can easily correct his own left and right errors by watching for bullet impact. You do not loose sight of the target under recoil. That's true with the McArthur brake also, but dust is kicked up by that brake.

The fire control computer (software was installed on a HP Jornada 525 for testing) worked as predicted also. We used field data taken from our Yuma Proving Grounds tests for downrange information. This method uses NO curve and extracts the exact BC or drag co-efficient value for the range entered. It is then corrected for conditions.

Elevation data was tested to 2000 yards at times of the day when maximum conditions fluxuation were in effect. From 4:00 am to 6:00 am at the test site, the air temp chagned +20 degrees. A new calculation and shots were done every 15 minutes. Vertical impacts were within .10 MOA (measured from point of aim to center of the group).

The Lost River Ballistic Technologies M40 bullets have very little precession, requiring about 10% the spin rate correction of the conventional bullets (Lapua, Sierra, and everyone else). That required a tweaking of the spin correction formula. Also tested were the corrections for Coriolis or the earth's rotation. For those that don't think it's an effect, IT IS. Misses will occur at 1500 yards or greater on certain points on the globe if Coriolis is neglected.

The bullet's resistance to wind deflection also required a tweaking of the standard wind formula. A critical part of that formula is true flight time to the target. The LRBT bullets however, do not fly as other bullets do and using the standard formula results in overcorrections. That is also fixed.

At this point, we are moving forward with Version II of the software. The projectiles will be offered in two versions. The J40 version is for the civilian market and is a softer alloy. The flight characteristics are the same. The M40 projectile is for the military application, having a much harder material. The J40 leaves no copper fouling in a broken in barrel and is easy to clean.

Velocities will be 3000+ on the production guns based on tests. I know this sounds dry and clean, sorry, not much time. Have to get ready for another trip. More to follow, check out the pictures.

Dean

trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 13:46:16 (ZULU)

Guys,

Do any of you know where I can find US Army, USMC field manuals online? I was in a book shop, and found a British "Soldier's Handbook" and wanted to see what the US version was like. BTW, the British Handbook seemed to have a lot of good info. Lots of stuff about training drills for weapon handling, etc. was included.

Thanks,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 14:55:13 (ZULU)

Never know, the Germans might decide to rule the world again:) The M1A1 is important for our Israeli buddies because that's what the Egyptians currently use. I seem to recall that the modern T-80(like the U and UD), modernized T-72(like the UM varient IIRC) and T-90(non-export) and T-90S(export) have the TI mounted on the left side of the top of the turret(looking towards the front) and it's recessed into the top armour and baffled so that's it's vulnerable from about 10degrees either side of the main gun. Not cool from other angles unless your shooting something serious, like 30mm APDSFS. OK, here's a picture of the T-64BV(non-export):

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_64BV/T64BV_1.jpg

Here's a photo of the T-72BR varient, which was offered for export IIRC.

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T-72BR/T-72BR_Russe_11.jpg

Here's a T-80U which is is seeking fairly widely exportation into the Gulf states of the ME, and similar varients are already going to Pakistan:

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_80U/t-80u_7.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_80U/t-80u_13.jpg

That pretty much covers all the important modern Russian armour, with most modern tanks(T-80UD, T-84(Ukranian dieselized T80 for the most part)and the T-90 series being various combinations of different hulls, engines and turrets for specific foreign sales. Different armour packages, but that doesn't effect us one way or the other as nothing I plan on carrying is going to do diddly squat, even an AT4(don't even think of trying a frontal shot with one of these, or most any manpack shaped charge that's not top attack) That's just real simple tank ID, do some quick google searches for whatever you like or e-mail me and I'll send you some more photos.

Oh, I think somebody mentioned reactive armour vs Mk211. They are designed to be inert to MG's and small auto cannon, don't know if that works IRL. I'm thinking that some of the newer armour uses an outer layer of NERA(Non Explosive Reactive Armour) which uses a elastic material like rubber or in some cases fiberglass between two layers of armour plate and when it gets hit the outer plate moves around and eats up the shaped charge jet, reducing penetration. I'm not an engineer, this is just what I've read. The engineers I've talked to seem to think it works pretty good however. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 15:04:49 (ZULU)

Pack VS Bipod

For the three or so years that I have taken rifle shooting seriously I have always shot off my pack. I hate the way a bipod takes a set when you slap it down and you have to dink with it. A pack just seems to feel better to me. That being said I am going to break down buy a harris and endevaour to use it. I see people shooting better than me, particularily at 500yd and beyond with bipods and i dont think ALL of it is who is behind the trigger.

Ideally we would just pack sand bags into the field and use them as the consistency of there reaction to recoil is uniform. As no one wants the weight we use are packs instead. Unfortunately the packs reaction to recoil is not as uniform as sand or shot.

Not only is the the packs reaction to recoil less uniform than a sand bag but it also varies depending how you stuff our pack. If the pack is to react the same way everyshot it must be packed the exact same way every time with the same items. These items must be folded the same way and packed in the same order. What happens when you actually need one of those "items" like your pancho outside of your pack and need to shoot off your pack at the same time? The packs reaction to recoil changes is what.

The very thing that makes a pack fast to shoot off of , the fact that the rifle moves about on the pack, makes for another factor. Placing the rifle forend farther out on the pack or to one side of the fact changes the way the rifle recoils.

Lastly in regards to movement yes it is a faster first shot at ranges under 500yd to drop your pack and slap your gun on it and take the shot. But if you have to get up and move after this guess who moves first? The bipod shooter merely picks up his rifle and runs, the pack shooter has to get back into his pack or web and then pick up his rifle.

I still like pack shooting but I am going to try to master the bipod. Theyve broken me. By the way I forget what is THE Harris to buy? It should go well on the Mcmilllan A-2 Ive ordered.

Ben

Ben <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 15:24:05 (ZULU)

JR...

Yo' is a dumb bunny ;))

HA!(as Pat would say).

First off, it's time that somebody reveals yo' secret identity, so I'm gonna "bust your hide!... I'm gonna lay it all out, for the world to see. Most of you guys don't know "JR" from a rock (cuz he sorta looks like one ;)... some of you guyz know he works for H-S Precision.

Now here's the real skinny on that rascal!

"JR" is the barrel maker for H-S Precision... now you might think "So friggin WHAT!"... the guy down the street makes barrels too... BIG DEAL.

Well... it is a BIG DEAL because... H-S Precision is one of ONLY TWO companies (none of you guyz ever heard of the other company) that are certified to make SAAMI Test barrels, and what are called "Universal Receivers"... these big $25,000 guns and fast swap pressure/standards test barrels that test the ammo you guyz shoot, are the cream of the gun industry!!!

That's it... nobody else can make these puppies, and "JR" makes the barrels.

So inspite of rumors that he's funny looking, and inspite of the fact that he's the only guy in history to ask my Ugly fat sister out on a SECOND date... if he talks barrels, yo' dumb ass better listen... hard!

OK... now to business!

> 'Lito, lito, lito:

>"Are you trying to tell me that the spin of the bullet is determined by the actual impressions of the grooves in the bullet?? Hmmmm.... So you are saying a 1/12" twist in one barrel may not equal the RPM's in another 1/12" twist barrel at the same velocity? It will not spin the same 1 revolution per 12 inches of travel for (x) distance? Or are you saying that a bullet may not break as freely as one barrel to the next due to the land structure?"<

Nope... if you shoot a bullet at 3000fps from 100 barrels with a 12" twist, they will all have the same spin-rate as they leave.

>"Dude, or undude, once it leaves the muzzle at (x) velocity, if it breaks clean from the crown, the rate of deceleration of gyration should be constant, depending on the bullet. It's like comets and shit, isn't it??"<

Comets??? You mean the sink cleaner, or those dumb stars that fly tailways backward? ;)

Bullets will decelerate from their forward motion at the same speed (or "un-speed")... but their loss in rotational velocity will vary with the surface finish or texture, and that is formed by the rifling.

Think of those tyre balancing machines at the tyre store... take two of them, and put a racing slick on one, and a "Monster Mudder" on the other... both the same weight, and size. Then spin them up to 600 rpm, and kill the power. The surface air restance of the slick is low, and it will decelerate slower (or spin longer) than the "Monster Mudder", who's big, chunky tread will cause a lot of air drag.

Now take this picture, and think base balls... the kind of surface a base ball has (in terms of roughness) will determine the amount of change of course the ball will take on a curve ball pitch. When the curve ball got popular in base ball, the association had to standarize the ball surface in order to make it fair, and an umpire will pull a ball from the game, if the surface gets roughed up, because it will curve more with a rougher surface...

Now take this picture, and think boolets... when it is shot out of a barrel, the air over the surfaces is the same on all sides, but as gravity starts to take effect, and it starts to drop, there is an additional airflow coming from under the bullet, and this air flow now gets skewed more to one side of the bullet because of the bullets rotation, and causes it to slowly start to drift to the other side of it's normal path... just like the air hitting a curve ball (or sliced tennis ball) will cause it to drift.

So... the rougher the bullets rifling, the more the drift... this is a bit of counting angels on the head of a MatchKing, cuz "Spin drift" is a very minor effect at the ranges that we shoot, and the difference in the amount of drift between a bullet with 0.002" groves, and one with 0.003", is not 50%... it's a tiny bit, because of what's called the "laminar effect" (which is a four page write in itself). The difference in drift between the two depths of rifling might be 10% of the total drift, which itself is very small... it might be able to be measured on the bigger guns like the .338 Lap, or the 50BMG at ranges of 1,500yds or more. And, except on perfectally windless days, these things are lost in the "noise" of the real enemies of longrange shooting... wind, velocity "ES", and ranging errors.

>" HAHAH... Devil's advocate, his right hand man am I....."<

You damn betcha!! You're a booger too!!

>"You should be able to compute the approximate RPM's necessary to stabilize a bullet. This could be connotated into an 'angular' formula, which would be quite broad, but nonetheless accurate and not precise. If the thing is spinning, whether at 50K Rpm or 40K Rpm, results are the same?? NO! Perhaps at a certain range."<

The computations are sketchy at best... the "Greenhill" formula, which is standard fair, was written back in the 1870's, and was derrived from solid lead round nosed bullets, with the center of gravity in the "middle" of the bullet, that were 2 or 2.5 diameters long, that were shot at below the speed of sound... and everybody thinks Greenhill was written by GOD! This is the "best we've got?... it's junk math for the bullets we've got now.

We now shoot pointy bullets that can be 6 or 7 dimeters long, at 3 to 4 times the speed of sound, and that are (for the longrange shooter), TAIL HEAVY, and ballistally unstable by design!

If the bullet is launched at a rotational speed that is sufficent to get it on track and keep it from tumbling, and the 200 yd groups are great... suppose the rotational speed drops below that which is required for stablilty at 800 yds... it then starts to tumble out of control. Take the clasic 168SMK @ 2600 load... there are guys that love this load at 1000, and others that complain that sometimes they get a sideways mark in the target... it's because the rotational stability of this load is marginal at 1000yds in a 12" twist, and the slightest perturbance (a flap of a butterfly's wing ;) will cause it to tumble... but you will NEVER hear someone with a 10" twist, making the same complaint, because for the 10" twist is rock stable at 1000yds, the threshold of marginal stability being out around 1200 to 1300yds.

The spin drift of a 10" barrel is 20% more, but is still lost in the "noise" of windage, and at that range, velocity "ES", and the resulting vertical dispersion really becomes a big problem... much bigger than spindrift.

>"I agree that the 'bullet upset' will occur with different forms of land and groove structure, which will deviate the bullet because of deformity, but not the twist rate itself."<

Keep in mind that different rifling will mark the bullets differently (and Shilen now is playing with ratchet rifling Hmmm)... if all groves and lands are uniform, then there is no "deformity"... it is "uniformity". It is deformity, only if some parts are different than others... very Baaad

>"Paul, I'm pickin' yer brain cuz even though yer an old fart who lives in a dumpster to shoot cats, your constructive mind is still in fairly good shape, hahah.<

HA!... if you could see into my mind, even you would walk away totally confusified (or blushing)! Double HA!

>"By the way, we've got some big kittys closing in on the Rapid City area, in fact there was a Puma in town a few weeks ago!!! Give me a heads up and I'll line you up with an 'Executive' style dumpster ghillie.

I'm hoping to get to SoDak next year, to see you and Pat... and do some doggies... if the dogs aren't good, I'll always settle for "Cats" ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular ally or backyard Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, ...then, of course, there's the OTHER French Cat... also YUMMY!!, USA - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 16:23:06 (ZULU)

Jefe you are correct that in EUROPE there are many places where you can shoot out to 4k. Fulda Valley and Netherlands come to my mind. I was talking about Finland which is TOTALLY different game.

Think about the following: 30% of Finland is either swamp or lakes, most bridges do not tolerate a 40 ton T-72 let alone a 60 ton M1A1 and to crown it all most of the remaining land mass is woods. I believe something like 15-20% of the land mass is fields where you could have traditional tank battles. Luckily the best places for this kind of action are nowhere near the Russian border. Besides our fields do not carry tanks most of the year as in spring and fall they are too soft and in winter they are often covered with 3-5 feet of snow that causes problems for most tanks. In winter the gorund is hard so it can support tanks better. Basically our tanks move most of the time along narrow roads in the woods where visibility is usually only a few hundred meters.

Unlike most tank tactics propose, the Finns keep their tanks mostly in the woods because it easier than to use the few open spaces taking into consideration that in a war with any neighbour we would not have air superiority. The Russians can not move their tank formations well in the woods and those you might pick up in the open. Finnish troops are almost allways in the woods until they really have to come out to fight. Our doctrine is totally different from most other countries and it is dictated by the lack of air superiority and very difficult terrain for "normal" tank battles.

I am not saying that M1A1 could not operate in Finland as it can but I am saying that they would get hit too because they could not rely on their superior 4k reach but had to rely more on tactics, fast action and superior armor. The good TI would be a good asset but not something that would by itself guarantee anything.

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 17:54:02 (ZULU)

HEXA:

Fair enuf! Funny you should mention Fulda. I was stationed about 10K west of there. Sometimes we would pass out on the train heading back from Frankfurt and fortunately, the Polezei would wake us up at the East German border.

It was a very long walk back to base in the wintertime as it was usually the last train!

Does Finland have a Mountain Infantry unit?

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 19:22:17 (ZULU)

Rumor Mill Running Rampant!

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24283

http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2001/09/01/story/0000101013

Alright you super sleuths! Get to work here! Lock and load or status quo?

Now where where did I put that dang howitzer? Bolt out and waiting for the alien invasion!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 20:30:26 (ZULU)

JR, I figured there was some one lurking around on here who worked for HS, last time I called you guys, you'll where too busy to repaint stocks, but if the rush is over I'll call again and arrange getting my stock seen to, the finnish didn't last long, the 18 months comprised of 3 weeks solid hunting in Scotland, and maybe 2 weeks here in Germany, plus maybe 45 half days on the range, the finnish started looking shabby after the second week in Scotland the stock was then 3 months old, flakes of the paint came of just rearward of the rifle action on the second or third range session, I figured maybe the paint hadn't cured correctly, The stock ( Rem 700 LA thumbhole sporter) has otherwise been great, tough as nails, just the finnish didn't last, I've repainted it 3 times with some OD enamel stuff I bought in the PX, but it looks shabby and as Im rebuilding the rifle (cos I wore the barrel out with 3500rds Hornady LM 30-06)I wanted to get the stock done properly, the only pain in the ass is the cost of the shipping $50 each way !! and if the customs get a hold of it they like to charge tax on what its worth not on what the paint job cost, no wonder I have to call collect, !! thanks for the reply, Pete L,

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 21:16:03 (ZULU)

All this talk of Tanks reminds me of the best ever 3 shot group I made, 3 into 12" at 3200m ( 120mm APFSDS) well I was impressed.

I am absolutely convinced that the best use of Scout Snipers against Armour is to give the sniper the possibility to call in either Arty, an air strike, be it fast movers of Attack helo's or your own armour to engage, some thing along the lines of, what did they call it ? Stingray? any how, when i was with 1Bn A+SH, the FOO spent 75% of his time with the Sniper teams, the rest with Reccy PL, cut out the middle man, Scout /Sniper/FOO, or are you guys in the military already doing this and I'm re-inventing the wheel, I did get the impression that the consensus of oppinion in the Brit Army was that you either had to be an officer or SAS to call in such assets, Jock squaddy wasn't trusted enough to get his grid right enough to drop bombs on things, but on the other hand, we all know the one about officers with maps !!, let the cook(Slop Jockey) call the air strike,, please !! Pete l

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 21:32:22 (ZULU)

Peter L,

Guess hunting in october is a big nono, now with another outbreak of foot and claw disease near the Scottish border??

(was starting to really look forward to it, me just gotsta shoot me one of them Bambi's at long range...)

The Winnie is performing better and better, with Lapua 170 grain lockbase bullets and 44 grain of n140 in Lapua cases with federal nr 210 primers i got the following results at 100 meters;

5 shot group1- 0.6885 inch

2- 0.5935

3- 1.1590

4- 0.6730

5- 0.3500

average speed, 2705 fps.

With 185 scenars and 42 n140, average speed 2608 fps, and at 500 meters average groupsize for 5 shot groups 6 inches, same ammo but shot with the psg made the groups a bit smaller,6 shot groups of 5 inches average with 2 six shot groups of only 2.5 inches, but i guess that was more luck than capability.

We might be conducting a "sniper" gettogether 3 weekends from now, a whole day of stalking, cams/comms, observation lanes, kims games, tips and tools trading etc etc. We got it almost straightened out with authorities, got ourselves a nice little army training ground, some 7,62 blanks, maybe some nightsights , TI's and handsfree comms from the bossman, will be a fun and interesting day, if your interested mail me or Stefan. (maybe something for master T aswell?)

Maybe cya on the bridge near Osnabruck on monday, peter, ill be on the look out for a Brit with a sniper squishgun wearing a pink ghillie...

To Mike Miller;

wandering if you received my money order for the sling yet...

To all rosterfarians,

Anyone near the State of Kentucky now of any good long ranges to shoot at? Do not mind if it is a day riding or so...really would like to do some shooting while i am over in the States in October and November, all the ranges i have found on the internet are kinda short, pistol ranges, would like to do some long range shooting since overhere in the Netherlands i'd end up shooting civilians if i shoot further than 500 meters...our little country is just that...little!

About to shoot another $60.000 dollars worth of TOW rockets in the coming week, (live is good)

Marco.

Happiness is seeing a tank go KABOEM.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
the Hague , ZH, NL - Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 23:26:39 (ZULU)

Scout-snipers in the USMC often call most of the arty for the Bn. In peacetime they don't let enlisted call CAS, which is stupid IMO, since you don't magically learn it when the balloon goes up. Now this depends on the BN, and the level of trust the BC has in his snipers, but my last CAX('99) I had three batteries of 155's to play with, and probably called fifteen individual missions, and three or four series missions, most using RAP, which sucks BTW. The mortar platoon has a FO with each line company, who can call arty too. Very often the only officers involved in the arty process are the FSO's at the Bn level. The FDC I worked with was run by a Sgt. Not surprisingly, things went very well. We had an air officer with our team for the purposes of calling CAS for the training, but IRL there's no way that would happen. Each line company has an air oficer for CAS, and often they crosstrain on arty. Pretty much every infantry NCO should have a good grasp of calling mortars and arty, and at least the basics of a nine line CAS brief. Even if they just have the cheat sheet, the pilots will be able to talk them through it. With pilots, the comm procedures go out the window. They usually just want to know where to drop what, and when, and an egress heading. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 01:29:07 (ZULU)

Wes, On the 168 gr Barnes bullet, I can confirm this rummor for you, I have a case of loaded ammo and a few bags of bullets that I got from Barnes. I along with a few others were sent these bullets for testing. They are a 168 grain boattail version or their- x bullet (solid copper) . I was given the XLC (blue coated) bullets and the uncoated bullets for testing. They shot in the 3/4 to 1 MOA range in rifles of mine that normally shoot .200 to .400. Barnes was contacted by the Goverment for purchace of these due to new EPA restrictions on their ranges. if you want a couple of boxes of the ammo to mess with email me.

The text is being added to the gallery photos, on my site.

300 WSM

I have also tested all the Winchester factory offerings of the 300 WSM:

180gr Power Point SP Avg Vel 3008 Avg Accuracy 1.030"

180gr Falsafe Premuim Avg Vel 3024 Avg Accuracy .780"

150gr Bal Sivler tip Avg Vel 3415 Avg Accuracy .480"

The above is based on 10 5 shot groups with each type. I was impressed with the 150gr variety. 23 MOA to 1000 yards pretty damn flat. I am still doing alot of playing with this cartridge, I really like what the 175 grain Sierra's are doing at 3100. .300" avg at 100 yards. I need to get these loads to the 1000 yard line.

George Out

George Gardner, G.A Precision Rifles <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 04:44:57 (ZULU)

On the unconvencional urban war against tanks(This probably has only historical value now).I have a friend who escape from Hungary in 76,his father jumb out the window last time KGB knock the door few months after the Revolusion.He was about 8years old then and he told me the civilians used to lay plates on the streat upside down to look like mines.When the tanks slowed down for few seconds to get abetter look they would throw molotovs from the roof tops.Soviet response was to blow up the top floors of the buildings with total desregard for unarmed civilians.They also used the trick of sliping between 2 Rusian units in the midle of the night take few potshots at both directions and slip out leting the soldiers shoot each other

Jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
Marathon, Fl, usa - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 18:19:16 (ZULU)

I have no doubt that as I sit here at this computer, today, the technology exists to be able to search an area of flat ground, acquire by day or night (through fog and smoke) by the heat the target emits (or contrasts against), shoot a supersonic projectile from a gyro-stabilized rifled or smoothbore tube, while both the target and shooting platform are moving in excess of 75 miles per hour over rough terrain and through woods. I know it exists in the US M1A1 and M1A2 tanks, and to an extent in the 25mm Chain Gun system in the Bradley and 30mm Bushmaster in the Apache.

The electronic thought that goes through the computer includes wear of the rifling in the tube, tube droop, winds between me and target, temperature of propellant, BC and ballistics of any of at least six different types and weights of projos, drift, Coriolus effect, humidity, barometric pressure, and I'm sure a dozen other variables I've not thought of.

Someday that may (and I don't doubt will) be in a package small enough, durable enough, dependable enough, and affordable enough for an above-average IQ infantryman or commando to learn how to operate and be able to sustain at better than average hit probability.

But I can't hold one today. I'm not saying prototypes aren't available, but I must put my marbles on the side not of the nay-sayer, but of the dubious and not totally convinced.

So Dean, please don't feel pissed off that I, still at Cro-Magnon knuckle-dragging level, am not doing handstands and rushing to the credit union for a loan to buy the whole shebang you're suggesting may obsolete what I as a hobbyist am willing to invest in today. If it's the better mouse trap for killing my fellow man, believe me I will suggest to the Army we buy it immediately. But I'm still not convinced that the 25-pound AAI/HK Advanced Individual Combat Weapon is the Silver Bullet it's been promised either.

I absolutely do not trust everything that comes out of the Army's labs or the Operational Test Command. Both often produce or work on concepts just to keep engineers and scientists employed, without regard to making a foot-soldier's life easier or more effective.

Makes for interesting reading though, I must admit. How much does all this weigh? I'm interested in your first round hit records (day/night, and in winds).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 19:34:17 (ZULU)

Sinister...

Don't feel too bad. You got company. I'm with you, Dude!

Us "old" guys have to stick together againse these new fangled shooting computer thingies. If'in we don't, they will take our old fasioned M3 'scope sights away, and then what the hell will we do???

It's amazing how one guy is walking around with the toy in his pocket, that all the militaries in the world would LOVE to have, and he ain't a millionair yet.

You think we missed something here... was this announcement really a pre-release press conference... maybe Ol' Dubya Bush can now quit the anti-ballistic program, and just get some of these pocket doohickies, and mount them on old, recycled Redstone missles???

Ya' think???

I wonder if it'll work on Cats??

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:12:22 (ZULU)

Lito,I wouldnt presume to give you advice but I dont think a cats bc will get anywhere near .9oo.H ow would you launch a cat @2900 without it burning or coming apart?I think the whole thing would have to be reconfigured to use it on cats.

hehehe

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
1st day , of spring, downunder - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:30:36 (ZULU)

Gavan...

No, no, you dumb bunny...

I meant if it'll work to TARGET Cats!

I want to get one so I can compute the Corriolis effect, spin drift, terminal velocity, precession, yaw, and all that other really cool scientific stuff on a .177 cal pellet at 650 fps.

Hell man, I might be able to reach all the way to the fat lady's yard, so they wouldn't die in my grape arbor (Yuck... dead Cats really ruin the taste of the wine!)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 21:40:23 (ZULU)

Marco, this foot and mouth may screw us for our bambi sniper exercise, if that doesn't, the operation I need on my goddamn right foot will, lets wait and see, get your trip to the US booked, we have the rest of our lives to go Bambi'ing in scotland, I promised my son I'd take him on his first scottish hunt in April, tag along if you like, also 1st week in August is one for your diary(definalely) hey it won't run away, how about 5 days Boar hunting plus 2 days driven boar( 8th to 14th Oct) now that'll test your CQB skills, I will look out for the Cloggy convoy tommorow, I'm off to the UK tommorow or tuesday, want to attend my uncles funeral, I'll be back on Friday, Aboput this sniper w/end, aren't I too old and crippled for that?? how do I explane 3 weeks scotland,and a w/end in Holland, she will not believe that the training area isn't in the centre of Amsterdam !!

Did you get your winnie trigger sorted? and have you had any more thoughts on who will build your 6.5 ?? sory abouit long winded post, I seem to have miss laid your email address on this computer,, enjoy your excersise in BB, do you know Trauen camp, we always used that as a base, I only saw the camp on the last day for a shower, spent some time in Hohne though, I used to repair the GTS (gunnery training simulators) for the Armoured regt's up there, 'till they sold the Challenger 1 to the Jordanians for 1GBP each, can you belive it, at that price I would have bought 5, !! regards.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 22:03:46 (ZULU)

Gents,

Been in the shop all day and at the feet of the master.

FINALLY finished correcting a small problem with my inletting on my Mexican Mauser custom project. Took it to Steve Nelson and he proclaimed it "ready to proceed" and shape. To celebrate, we cut the stock to the correct length of pull and squared it. It even looks like a real walnut stock now. Final shaping, finishing, and checkering. Say another 100 man hours of labor and it'll be ready. To bad I won't have it ready for deer season, but there's next year. Will have to use my pre-64 Winchester M70 Featherweight in .308. Life is just to rough...;-)

Have Steve to the point were he is ready to build a tactical rifle. Now THAT IS progress!

Got to handle and see the 2002 American Custom Guncrafters Guild raffle rifle. Gent's you GOTTA get in on this. Tickets are $20.00 each and they only sell 2,000 of them...so chances are good. Here's waht you get: Custom Mauser 404 Jeffery stopping rifle/ gold inlay and engraved, high grade english walnut stock. An absolutely beautiful piece! Also, a custom fitted Marvin Huey case ($4,500. value), and a damascas custom made high grade hunting knife and sheath with fancy file work and Ivory handles ($1,800. value). Total Value is $19,000.00! GET A TICKET!

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 23:38:36 (ZULU)

Happy birfday to me, yadda yadda yadda. Turned 47 this morning, figures it would be raining. Getting old ain't all it's cracked up to be. Stuff that used to hurt for a day now hurts for a week. I thought we were supposed to age like fine wine, so far it's like MD20/20!

Not aging with grace, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, September 2, 2001, at 23:45:02 (ZULU)

'Lito,

A George Gardner built, 1-11 twist, Rem 700 action, Leupold glassed (ballistically indexed) feline launcher (powered of course by VarGet). Gotta love it!

I can just see Sylvester going trans-sonic at 1,100 yards!

ROTFLMAO.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 02:18:48 (ZULU)

Jefe

As the Ice time 10000 years ago flattened Finland totally we do not have any real mountains and threfore no mountain troops either. Instead we have over 100000 quite shallow lakes, swamps etc.

We do have some hills in Lappland that for some might be mountains but they are only max 1300 m high (4300 ft) and they are really smooth. You do not need any climbing equipment to conquer them. Actually practicing mountain climbing in Finland is VERY hard to do as we do not really have any real mountains.

If you meant with mountain troops soldiers who can fight in harsh winter in difficult terrain then yes we have them. Some say we have 700000 of them (our reserve) but seriously said we do have enough properly trained reserve soldiers to fight in Lappland at any time of the year.

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 02:53:16 (ZULU)

While loading for the WinMag today I noticed that runout in about every 4th or 5th case jumped from just under .002 before bullet seating, to as high as .007 after. Using Forster benchrest die. Most Federal Match I have checked runs around .002. Is this much ado about nothing and is brass, (same lot of once fired RP), die, or myself most likely culprit?....Me thinks all of this technical shit posted lately is makin' my ass too tight....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:18:05 (ZULU)

Howdy folks!

'Lito, Mike:

Thanks for the response, eh. I wanted to use this forum instead of e-mail to get the info out there, and I know there are plenty of knowledgeable folks itchin' to answer such queries. These are questions that were asked hundreds of years ago, yet there is little that a guy will find at the local library about the subject.

All those questions were baited, and youse guys took the hook. Thanks!!!! I am humbled by your vast knowledge... haha!

...speaking of humbled,

'Lito, you old fart!

I feel like the sniper with the Starlite scope who has just came across the enemy's infrared!! Scope out and duck for cover!!!! hahah

My cover's blown, ha!

Guys, the only 'rock' you'll see in my department is the one I hide behind to catch a few zzzz's between rifling 50 cal's!

Yep guys, I make somewhere around 90% of the barrels that test the ammunition youse guys use in yer rifles and shotguns and pistoles. Probably about all of the 50 caliber barrels used in the military proving grounds. The info you see in a lot of the reloading manuals or on the back of the box most likely came from a barrel by yours truly. And I have been making a lot of 'em lately.

lito, today's use of the greenhill is sketchy at best, I agree, and I use a similar formula which pertains to todays bullets, as we generally use an ogive of 6-8 calibers for 'match' bullets, and still takes the general approach of the length of bullet but I also add the center of mass as a factor into the stability. A guy also has to remember that they used 'lead' bullets for greenhill, which has a different specific gravity than today's jacketed bullets, and has to be computed into the equation. A bullet of different material will not fly the same.

You did well sir!! The flats and grooves initiated by the rifling to get it to spin actually inhibit the RPM's differently from barrel to barrel due to the surface finish left on the bullet AND the depth of the cut. There is a range of RPM's you want to keep the nose up, but it is very broad. The ONLY reason I am against faster twist barrels is stripping the jacket, which will not be the case with a 10" twist rate in a .308. I guess one other reason would be if you used such an excessive twist at a high velocity without stripping the bullet, the bullet would tend to yaw more in the direction of the spin. And depending on the center of gravity of that bullet you may experience a 'rise' that you would not have expected. I worried about this with the 1/6" twist rate Berger specified for a 17 Remington blank I made 2 years ago.

Yer sis ain't too bad, 'lito, just tell her to shave the 5:00 shadow, and I'll stop taking her out to dinner at the Mc'D's drive thru. Hah! (doubleHA!)

One more thing, and Pat may not be privvy to this, not sure, but I do know a few people on the Reservation with a wild dog problem, have remedied a few packs on occasion. You get about every size of target, from German Shepherd size to poodle. Good antelope practice, hah!

Peter Lincoln:

I hope I didn't come across as 'bustin' yer balls, I just see too many manufacturers get the raw end of the schtik on this site when if the customer would speak with the company in question, the problem would be resolved.

I know you are on the other end of the world, and now youse guys have to figure out what your money is actually worth, damned socialist Euro's, hahah, so I tell you what. E-mail me your concerns, with your address and telephone #, I will see what I can do for you. I can probably get one of our representatives to call you on our dime, deal?? I honestly give a shit about how our customers are treated. (pardon the vulgarity, Ken)

later folks

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:32:34 (ZULU)

Sinister:

I think we'd have to go with a slower twist for the 'cat launcher', we don't want to skin the cat before he leaves the barrel, doesn't fly as accurately. Minimum of 1/60". Otherwise you'll be cleanin' catgut, pullin' violin strings out yo barrel.

I don't know if any of youse have seen 8 gauge industrial guns, but they have a 'muffler' on the end which is about 4-5" diameter steel tubing. I think a guy could drill holes in the outside, in a twist helix, like paintball barrels, and use perhaps an oxy/acetylene boost. Or maybe just compressed oxy. stuff the kitty down the pipe, tamp down with a wad of Bounty, fill the chamber with gas and ignite!! A cat projectile would require at least 5 feet of barrel for any accuracy.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 03:49:43 (ZULU)

JR...

Speakin' of dog problems (not PD's)... I lived in Pennsylvinia in the 70s, near a resort area. Every year, the New Yawkers would rent cabins for the summer, and get their kids a "Puppy" to keep them company. Come Labor day, they'd load everything up for the trip back to the city... except for the dog, which they left on the side of the road.

By mid October, the dogs had packed up, and were damn wild (and mean)... and everybody was encouraged to SOS (Shoot On Sight), as they would attack little kids.

I would hunt them with a few friends, and I carried a full stock, spoon handled .270 Mauser, loaded with Sierra 90gr hollow points, at 3,600fps... damn bullets would nearly cut a 25 pound dog in half.

You got bad dogs on the reservation??? I'll bring the .270 Mauser (still got it :).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
French Cat... regular Cat, saute'd in white wine sauce... yummy, in the, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 04:13:40 (ZULU)

A couple of more questions:

1) Have any of you tried the Austrian Hertenburger (sp?) ammo? How is it?

2) Do any of you know about the National Guard's Sniper program? Where could I find out more about it?

Thanks.

Magnus

Magnus <clone@asu.edu>
Tempe, Arizona, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 05:11:26 (ZULU)

'Lito

>Now take this picture, and think base balls... the kind of surface a base ball has (in terms of roughness) will determine the amount of change of course the ball will take on a curve ball pitch. When the curve ball got popular in base ball, the association had to standarize the ball surface in order to make it fair, and an umpire will pull a ball from the game, if the surface gets roughed up, because it will curve more with a rougher surface...<

Guess what? You just described the... <GASP> MAGNUS EFFECT!!

hehehehe

But it is still a great write-up :-)

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 07:12:22 (ZULU)

Ok Lito,now I get the picture,for a while I had an image of a big guy cackling fienishly as he snap froze a cat into an aerodynamic posture and stuffed it into a pvc orange gun charged with acetylene or perhaps some of yer sisters hairspray and launchin it at the fat ladys roof only to have the damn cori wtf effect cause the cat to land in a good neighbors yard:)

Wonder if I could compute the info and dail it into my eye to hit bird at 200m with my sling shot.

Nah... I think Ill just build a belt fed bb gun:)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
bourbon & bed time, downunder, . - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 08:02:53 (ZULU)

JR thanks for taking a personal interest, I will mail you, didn't mean to knock HS products, the stock is bullet proof, any equipment I own gets a rough ride, I wasn't bothered about a bit of flakey paint and a rubbed off finnish, but as I'm rebuilding the rifle; I want it to look pretty, at least for a couple of weeks !!

Hirtenberger ammunition, its quite popular in Germany, I have only used the hunting stuff, but it seems to be accurate,(if the rifle likes it) consistent, I would put it on a level with Norma and Lapua, I am trying to get my hands on some 308 sub sonic fron Hirtenbereger, its proving difficult, regards to all, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 11:58:56 (ZULU)

JIM/HISTORICAL VALUE:

Interesting story Jim, but I think you are selling its value a bit short. Rather than just being of historical value, your story illustrates the concept of deception and ambush, which will never go out of style, especially for snipers. That is the way snipers are supposed to work.

Alot of tactics from WWII or earlier really havent changed that much.

Thanks for a good piece of history.

MOUNTAINS (or lack thereof):

Thank you for that piece of info. For some reason, I had picturued your country as mountainous.

(you still make great vodka regardless!)

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 12:01:05 (ZULU)

Marius...

Well, yeah... but I never explain somfin by throwing out a name or a word.

"Why do you have to step on the gas when going around a fast curve, instead of stepping on the breaks?"

"Because of the Montgolfier effect!".

... that doesn't answer or 'splain anything. It just winds up having guys throw around words that sound impressive, but that they don't understand.

Got into one here on SC with someone that you all know, about whether bullets fall point down like an arrow (they DON'T), or they fall to the ground with their axis still pointing at the same angle that they had when were fired upwards from the barrel (they DO)... and he threw words around that he didn't understand, trying to get ground... when I gave him a three page 'splaination on what was happining, he finely understood it.

Anyway... what else am I going to write about... I can't write about cams anymore, and now I can't write about MK4 rings and MK4 bases either... my world is getting smaller and smaller...

... I'm gonna go shoot some Cats!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 12:55:23 (ZULU)

Hexa,

Nice description of your country, But you forgot the Babes!!!!!

JR,

Bounty Wadding??

A Horrible Fire risk on the Great Plains? (insert Whine & trembling handwringing here).

What is needed for this project is a $100,000,000 research grant from Uncle Sugar.

Title: "Katzenboomer 2002 - Research Viability of Organic Anti-Armour Projectile & Interdiction" (Alternate ready materials using a porcine projectile in certain unfriendly areas of the middle east.)

Some sort of non-ecologocal damaging wadding along the lines of a oversized shotgun wad or SABOT, possibly either coated or impregnated with Barnes proprietary coating, would be a viable start.

Naturally, Varget would be a good start for propellant, but I can see a air fuel propellant becoming the wave of the future.

Have a nice end to your Holiday weekend folks.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 13:08:50 (ZULU)

Gav and Lito, you guys were kidding?

Man that tabby's going to have the butt at me when I finally let him outta the tumbler (three hours with a pound of BBs and a tablespoonful of moly...)

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:13:33 (ZULU)

Sinister...

If you think the cat is gonna be pissed off, just wait 'til Mary puts her favorite white dress in the drier, with all that moly...

... then you're REALLY gonna see the definition of "PISSED OFF!"

You got a cot in the basement???

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:44:22 (ZULU)

JR: "I guess one other reason would be if you used such an excessive twist at a high velocity without stripping the bullet..."

I would imagine that there is also a RPM limit after the bullet leaves the pipe. Spin too fast, and it'll deform - grow fat in the middle, or shed the jacket altogether like retreads flying off a semi tire. Copper and lead aren't the strongest of metals. BTW, the centrifugal force created by the Earth's rotation actually deforms Earth, making it wider at the equator than it is tall from pole to pole by about 26 miles.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 14:57:38 (ZULU)

Michael...

>"Spin too fast, and it'll deform - grow fat in the middle, or shed the jacket altogether like retreads flying off a semi tire."

What actually happens, is the jacket splits along the weak points made by the cuts on the jacket walls by the rifling... this is easy to see.

Shoot a Hornady "SX" out of a 9" or 7" twist barrel, with ANY .22 centerfire, and you will see a quick streak of "smoke" going out to the target. People used to think this was lead melting off the nose of the bullet (another of the famous wives tails)... but it was the jacket splitting along the rifling marks, because the SX series bullets used jackets that were 0.009" thick, whereas the normal jacket thickness for .22 centerfire jackets is 0.018".

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 15:10:34 (ZULU)

http://www.alexweb.net/unertl/for_sale.htm

This site says they have a real USMC Unertl for sale.

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 15:55:28 (ZULU)

SSG...

This is the long WWII Unertl with external adjustable mounts, that went on the '03A4 Springfields, and later, on the Winchester Heavy Barreled sniper rigs used in early Viet Nam... not the current USMC Unertl.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:01:37 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito. Did he say by chance how much he was asking. I have an old '03a4 at the smith right now. Might try to rig it up...

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
- Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:08:17 (ZULU)

SSG...

No he didn't... you gotta ask.

I've seen these on eBay, and they go for from $1,800 to $2,300... only because of the "USMC" stamp on the side.

These are standard Unertl 1.25", 8x target scopes, and you can find a 1.25" Unertl (of any power) on eBay or elsewere for around $300 to $400 in CREAM PUFF condx... if you can live without the "USMC" stamp!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 16:39:35 (ZULU)

Can anybody provide me with info on chrome lined barrels VS standard cm barrels.I am contemplating purchasing either a FN police sniper(308) or a Rem.700 pss(308)What can I expect for accuracy from both rifles given the exact same conditions.I know that the FN will be easier to clean and it will have a longer barrel life(due to chromed barrel) but what else can I expect from these rifles.Does anyone have any experience with these rifles.Which would be the most accurate.Thanks Semper Fidelis

Fred Flammini <FredF225@Hotmail.com>
Brockton, MA, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 17:27:09 (ZULU)

Lito

I dont know any fancy words but if i remember my highschool physiks

the way objects fall has to do with where the center of gravity is?On arows is forward of midpoint,bullets rear of midpoint?Also there is the Law about objects thrown at a direction wana keep going the same direction.You turn the wheels left the car still wana go staight,you hit the throtle the rear wheels spin faster than the frond and move to the right(wana go straihgt) and they point the car to the left,If you hit the brakes you will end up in the ditch.The problem with that is your survival instict tells you to do the oposite of what you must do.On amotorcircle is trickier if you wana go left you have to turn(inicialy)right.Also if you already lean in a turn and hit the frond brakes the bike is not gona fall its gona come up.Same laws of physics.

Did ipass the exam?

how you guys check the spelling on the posts??

Jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
marathon, fl, usa - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 18:31:54 (ZULU)

Michael,

There is a link to Varmint Al's webpage in the hot links section here. He does a pretty interesting analysis of the stresses that bullets are subjected to at various twist rates and muzzle velocities. It makes me think that as muzzle velocities go up, twist rates can slow down. I suspect that this has something to do with Sierra's recommendation of a 1 in 13" twist for the .30 cal 155 Palma bullet, since most of the palma guys are pushing these around 3000 fps out of 30-32" barrels, but that's only my opinion, for what its worth.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:11:04 (ZULU)

Hey JR, I treid to mail you, but it came back, can you try to mail me please so I can reply.

I shot my heym barreled remmy 700 today, using Hornady 168gr bthp match fodder , what a performer, happiness is one ragged hole.

Can any of you guys tell me how much you would pay for a box of this Hornady 168 gr stuff in the US, apparently it costs $34 ( 20 rds) a box here, how does that compare.. thanks Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:32:40 (ZULU)

Marathon Jim...

"Did ipass the exam?"

NOPE!

"how you guys check the spelling on the posts??"

MARIUS... Spell checker needed here ;)

Pat T...

The reason that the 155 Palma can use a 13" twist, is because it is shorter than the 168s.

But you're also correct... bullets that are marginal at 2500fps, will be stable at 3000.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 19:34:35 (ZULU)

Electronic Gizzies...

Not in the know, but wont they all go belly up when EMPs are used? Heck, anyone with a radioshack nearby can make em, not to mention BIG linear amp with direction sending ant. Do they make perfect sheilding?

I like my mil dots and they like me.

Painting Sticks:

Got the final story into M for review. It's basic, and all are welcome to add to it.

just enjoying my extra day off and remembering those that went before me to allow me what I have today...buk

buk <bukowski@ipa.net>
AbeautifulDayIn, Arkansas, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 22:01:42 (ZULU)

Ha!

Ok PeteR, I concede that Bounty may not work out well. Never mind my second choice. Cat-sabot?? Ever see those wax-dippers they have in machine shops to protect the tooling? That might be kinda mean, it's sorta hot. A Meowser gun.

Pat T:

If you subscribe to the higher velocity/slower twist rate, then you would be agreeing that RPM's coincide with bullet stability. Anyway, 155's are short and fat, hence the 13 twist. Would still go with a minimum of 12 if I had a choice.

In the olden days, ha, most of the 'magnums' were chambered with slower twist barrels. Check out the back of an old Speer book, all the Weatherby's used slower twist barrels than their 'non-magnum' counterparts. I've seen 300 WBy's issued with 14 twist barrels. BUT, a lot of their bullets were shorter and more blunt than we use today. Even so, many of the manufacturers based their twist rates on existing twist rates with muzzle velocity in mind.

CatShooter:

I do have one question I can't seem to answer. Why would the Mauser barrels use such deep grooves, and continue to do so, and maintain fairly good accuracy. 6.5 Swede, 7 mouser, both run groove depths around .001" over normal 6.5's and 7mm's, yet stay fairly close on bore diameters. Is this for, hah, lastability?? Do they run different diameter bullets across the pond? Damned socialist Euro's.....

Back to the grind tomorrow, folks. Hmmmph.....

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 22:37:34 (ZULU)

JR...

I donno, but them Mouse riffles sure shoot well.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Monday, September 3, 2001, at 23:01:58 (ZULU)

Years ago, a tactical scope called an ART IV was available, I think from Springfield. It seemed to me to be the ultimate tactical scope, at least in concept (I've never seen one). As I recall, this scope linked the variable power adjustment with a BDC, thus alleviating the shooter from range estimation. If I understand the Mildot system correctly, the shooter is still required to perform a calculation in the field to estimate range.

Does anyone have any experience with the ART IV? There was obviously something less than desirable about this scope or it would still be available. Thanks in advance.

Tom Nordberg <tnord@qwest.net>
Boise, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:02:34 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with the ART IV? There was obviously something less than desirable about this scope or it would still be available. Thanks in advance.

Tom Nordberg <tnord@qwest.net>
Boise, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:04:40 (ZULU)

Tom Nordberg...

The scope you are refering to is the "Leatherwood" ART (Automatic Ranging Telescope)...

It was based on the Redfield 3x9 scope. They put a cammed ring around the zoom ring, and this cam rode on a mount that was pivoted in front, so when the cam was turned, the back of the scope was lifted up.

They were still made up to a few years ago (somewhere??), and show up on eBay, and SGN from time to time, and cost about $300 to $400-ish bucks when new...

I'll tell you this, and every shooter that has used one will back me up on it... it is a grand, spanking POS!

The mount was very fragile, the reference was a vertical space that is 18" high (very hard to find an 18" high target except a deer's chest), and the cam was awkward to use in the shooting position.

There are a dozen scopes that are more betterer...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 00:45:39 (ZULU)

Cat Shooter (Lito) - Agree 100% with your assessment of the POS ART I, II IV, or anyother incarnation of that crap. Used them with great difficulty for too many years. One thing, not to give you much trouble but I hardly ever catch you in an error!!!

The ART I measured 30 inches from top stadia to bottom and 15 inches from top or bottom stadia to reticule center. That was the distance of top of head to belt line. The 18 inches you refer to was the Redfield 3x9 that was originally used on the Rem 700 Sniper from the late 60s to early 70s, I used them too. They worked better than the ARTs and there were really a surprising number of things you could use to get the 18 inches. The two lines were high in the field of view, measured form head to "nipple line" and a paddle came out and gave your range from 100 to 600. You then had to hold over or under according to the range as you zeroed your scope at 500 meters or yards. The holds were waist for 100 and 400, groin for 200 and 300, and top of head for 600. While it was a center punch for 500. :-)

The ART II/ IV had a heavy bar for the reticule at the left right and bottom. This heavy bar was equal to 1 meter, top of head to groin. When cammed correctly the shooter was supposed to cam, center cross hairs, hold for wind, fire. None of these scopes allowed for easy manipulation of the windage knob, thus holds were mandantory, which they still are under normal combat conditions.

DAAAAMMMMM, caught him in a goof!!!!!

Made my day! I can go to bed happy. I am going to really have fun with my students tomorrow!

Hold Hard Guys.

Rick Smiling for awhile!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 01:21:39 (ZULU)

Jeez rick-ster...

you never cut me no rhythm...

You're right on the early ones (you're older than me HA!, and I'm older than rocks... so you're in real trouble! Double HA!).

The only one I actually saw enuff to play with, was one of the ones that came back about 10 years ago, when Leatherwood "re-organised", and was trying to come back (to what???), and they were making them out of current production Redfield 3x9... (which were the basis of the early ones, without the ranging bar).

'lito

Going to the range tomorrow... five new sticks to shoot

:)))))))))))))))

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 02:10:18 (ZULU)

I'm packin' up the Jungle Truck so I can get out of here early... and I'll leave youz bumbs with this thought from a conversation I had today with a fellow Rosterfairian...

"There are many things we remember in life... our "first time" with a girl, our first job...

... but try this.

There was a day, long ago, when we had a perfect day... the weather was about 70 degrees out, and the humididy was maybe 40%... I got to sit under a big tree on a hill, with a brown bag lunch, and a big cooler of lemonaid, and a good friend. We had a couple of 15 pound varmint riffles, and sat talking, laughing, and overlooking 10 acres of fresh cut alfalfa...

... it don't get much better than that!

nite, nite...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:05:43 (ZULU)

Gents'

Lito's just trying to make us all jealous with that "lunch, lemonade(Lynchburg?), 15 Varmint Rifle, good friend, and fresh cut alfalfa" thing.

Try my day today: Up at 0500. Cup of fresh coffee, hunting partner arrives to go scouting for deer season at 0545. 0600 arrive jumping off point. One mile later drop into an area we think has game, but no SANE person would go...we did(that should remove all doubt). Once we worked our way into the bottoms we found (in a 1 mile stretch)...fresh bull elk sign, blacktail deer "highways", three elk wallows, fresh bear tracks/sign, jumped 10 mallards off a little marshy depression. Went to were it opened up and found a proper spot were we had 300 degree visibility on the high ground and could shoot out to 350 yards or so...we has found our hunting "Mecca" for the season. God help us if we shoot anything in there 'cuz it's gonna have to come out of the bottoms and back to the truck on our back...about two miles.

Saw two ruffed grouse on the way back to the truck.

All of this only four miles from my back porch in the beautiful coast mountains of Oregon. The 600 yard range is only six miles the other way...:-)

Plus home fried chicken, mashed potatoes/gravey, and ears of corn for dinner.

'Lito, and you think YOU had a good day.

Please try not to hate me...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, Oregon, by gawd!, U.S. of A - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:29:14 (ZULU)

Geez Wes,

You weren't north of Reedsport toward Loon Lake were ya?

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 03:40:48 (ZULU)

Jr -

I don't know about the 7mm's, but I seem to recall reading somewhere years ago that the european 6.5 bullets measured .266 vs. .264 for american made 6.5's. I just miked some WWII 6.5 Carcano at .266, and some 20 year old Norma 6.5 Carcano at .264. I have some 108 gr 6.5 Lapua Scenars that I bought to try in the .260 that just miked .264, so maybe there is something to the story.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:47:09 (ZULU)

Make that .266 vs. .264

Pat T

who needs to learn to proof read

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:49:17 (ZULU)

Doggone Marius -

That edit post thingie works pretty slick. Good work on the site. Thanks.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 11:54:17 (ZULU)

Damn, but some of you boys are smart. You mean to tell me my bullet's been doin' ALL THAT all these years and I didn't even know ? And I thought B.R.A.S.S. covered it all. Sniper my ass.

LITO: How's the weather your way. Rainin' like hell here in S.E. TX for two weeks. Enough is enough. Fixin' to start buildin' me an ark.

Hope ya'll had a good weekend.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 13:54:32 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave, have to agree with you on the fancy electronics. I spend my days surrounded by multi million dollars systems that always fail when you need them. I see a huge hill you carry all this majic up and when you get there it dies, or you do on the trek. I like the simple approach to shooting. Most the really good opperational snipers I know say just close the distance and shoot it. Shooting past 1000 yards starts to take on a whole new aspect and I wonder if many of the things we are attempting would not be better served by crew served weapons?

Pablito, do you Molly Coat the Cats?

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 15:51:33 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs...

Just catching up on the roster and noticed some of the comments on electronics. I was talking to one of the Special Forces guys at the shoot in Wyoming and he said something that I thought would probably fit here. The cry of the old Army was, "We need more ammo, bring ammo". The cry of the new Army is, "We need more batteries, bring batteries"!!

I have to agree with Dave also, you take all the fancy stuff away or it breaks down, without good shooting skills and you have nothing. However if you have someone with the skill to call their own wind and data you still have a very dangrous weapon out there.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 16:43:29 (ZULU)

premise.

The single most decisive factor in winning life and death "games" is having the right resources (by resources, I mean people) at the right place at the right time...

The individual tactics employed by a sniper vs an armored unit seem inconsequential when you consider that the sniper could and...in my opinion, should, be a key player in the fine maneuver of resources to point on an enemy...

follow-on comments/questions.

-How is this skill (I'll go so far as to call it an "art") trained in sniper programs in place today?

-wargaming is an effective tool for training this skill...so long as the board is maintained by an judge who seeks to eliminate "flaws" inherent in every game, which will be exploited to "win" even if the consequence is a non-realistic encounter.

-the opportunity to exercise and refine this skill... with real lives on the line exists in many communities (in the US) in the form of a volunteer emergency service...this opportunity is almost never exploited by the sharpest minds with the most to gain from the experience....

challenge.

I challenge you.... either accept what I have to say and improve yourself by exploiting the learning opportunities I have identified....

prove me wrong

fail to grow

also- the offer stands...any medical situation... I will attempt to answer with the correct approach and treatment. Email if you prefer, I like the challenge....

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 18:19:55 (ZULU)

Guys, over the years I have seen and tried all types of gadgets, gizmos and what nots. Electronic and otherwise. I have a trunk full of ghillies, and all manner of crap from tree steps to wire cutters that I MAY EVENTUALLY need on a callout. More and more, I rely on a well built rifle, good clothing and a small pack that will accomodate a camelback. I can go for days with that cut down kit. Two electric items that are indispensable is communications equipment/flashlights and batteries for same. The rest is just stuff you have to pack. If you have to run or displace with all that crap, you look and sound like Fred Sanford's junk truck going down the road with crap spilling out every damn where. K.I.S.S.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 18:29:31 (ZULU)

Ref: Equipment Dichotomy

either: "Beware the man who owns only one rifle......."

or: "Tiger Woods doesn't play with just one club....."

either: "Rely on only time proven gear...."

or: "Exploit emerging technology as a force multiplier...."

either: "Travel light and freeze at night...."

or: "Better to have it and not need it than...."

I could go on but you get the drift.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 19:33:16 (ZULU)

ANDY'S DAD: What all do you carry when you deploy (average, everyday deployment) that will accomodate your needs as a sniper most of the time ?

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 19:41:28 (ZULU)

Hey guys, want to reload some 300 ultra mag, but the trimmer i currently use (forester..standard size) is more of a pain b/c of the length of the cases you/i have to take the end off and insert the case screw it back on and then start trimming this not only hurts consistency but is a real pain the posterior when it comes time to trim a lot of cases. Soooooo any suggestions on a longer trimmer or better way to go about this. thanx,marc

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
where's winter, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:01:42 (ZULU)

I know many of you are shooting the Black Hills ammo. Question is from a 26" barrel,using the 175's, what kind of fps are you getting over the chrony?? Just chrony'd some with an average of 2577fps for 10 rounds. This sure seems slow but?????

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:10:48 (ZULU)

Forester Trimmer Issue:

If you are unscrewing the case holder collet of the trimmer to fit the longer case of an Ultra Mag and simply screwing it back in with the case in place it won't affect the trim accuracy. The collet seats against the inside of the holder and that is not changing so case lengths will be the same.

Forester does sell longer bases for the trimmer. It would be a simple matter of mounting your existing hardware to the longer base.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 20:27:21 (ZULU)

JIM MITCHELL:

1. How do snipers train and prepare. Read the "Sniper FTX Summary

listed in the training section. That gives the absolute bare

bones of it and it is far more complex.

As far as the armor issue, check the Field Manual if you have

any doubts about the effectiveness of sniper employment doctrine

on this issue. The Army needs to work on training its officer

corp on employment of supporting arms better, but snipers are

becoming more and more accepted as an asset and supporting

element.

I think the Marines are about 10 years ahead of us in sniping

and I base that on the fact they had an FM and formal School well

ahead of the Army and have traditionally valued marksmanship

skills in all their men. The Army should really adopt more of

the USMC standards as a whole, particullary since it has gotten

smaller. Having said that, I was in very good units and have a

very good experience and high degree of respect for the majority

of my leaders while I was in. (Except in a mech unit in Germany,

where the majority of the unit should have been summarily

executed).

2. Medical training available in local communities. Yep, sure is,

and the military puts doctors in inner cities to help out and

get hands on training for gunshot wounds etc.

Also, the Army has a 10 day course, called the "Combat Lifesaver

Course." This covers a number of general first aid tasks

ranging from evaluating a casualty and treating them, to triage

and IV therapy. The goal of this course is to have at least

2 CLSs per squad (about 10 guys) to help the medic out (1 medic

per 30 men roughly). The CLSs take care of the initial lifesaving

steps (including sucking chest woulds, etc., not just real basic

stuff), transport the WIA to a Casualty Collection Point, assist

triage and follow up and MEDEVAC. IVs are an important part,

since due to the nature of the mission, their are big issues with

Hypovolemic and septic shock which go along with combat wounds.

They also help out with heat casualties and hangovers.

Bearing that in mind, re-read the FTX Summary. The final exam for

this course (Run by the Battalion Surgeon, PA and Medics) is

a combat patrol where several members are given fake wounds of

varying types under their uniforms. The patrol eventually makes

contact and while the mock battle goes on (squad or platoon size)

and they DO try to overun your position etc., the med rep signals

someone with a wound to drop and the student is called to treat

them and graded by very specific standards.

If the OPFOR is doing well, then there are more casualties for

the student to deal with, even to the point where they are

overwhelmed by numbers. Then they get graded on triage and

treatment.

It is an excellent program.

3. Yes Virginia, I am a bandwidth hog!

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:00:51 (ZULU)

WARGAMING:

Jim, I think you are confused about what the term means (in the military anyways).

Wargaming is not a force on force excercise. That is called an FTX or other names.

Wargaming simply means when during the planning process, you develop possible courses of action to accomplish the mission. Then you either place yourself in the enemies shoes and guess at his most likely moves and adjust your plan accordingly. OR, you have another person take the enemy side and play devils advocate.

So there are no nuetral judges. There is the leader of the mission and it is his call and his responsibility at the end of the day.

As far as FTXs, there are neutral judges. They are called MILES systems and are similar to laser tag. While they have their shortcomings (leaves stop lasers) there are a number of trained Öbserver/Controllers who move with each element and make necessary adjustments. For example, if a unit is spotted by the OPFOR and they call in a Fire Mission on the radio, the OC will throw some artillery simulators. If the unit reacts the way they are supposed to immediately, they might get away with the OC only "killing"a few of them. If not, then he will adjust accordingly.

All in all, the training is very good to outfuckingstanding. Slogans like "More Sweat in Peacetime, Less Blood in Combat"adorn

barracks walls everywhere and alot of effort goes into making the training as tough and realistic as possible.

The National Training Center, Joint Readiness Training Center and other programs are some of the best training programs in any military in the world. There is also a major emphasis put on the junior leader and initiative which is unique and puts our military ahead of most others.

Of course when most of our combat units are keeping babysitting shitheads all over the world to stop them from slaughtering eachother, they dont get to train much (Oh yeah, training center in Germany for Peacekeeping duty, its very good from what I hear).

So, despite budget cuts, forced political correctness etc., our military training is very, very good.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:14:39 (ZULU)

Reminds me of a story from an Observer/Controller buddy of mine at the Joint Readiness Training Center.

Each soldier is issued a sealed brown envelope before going into the "Exercise Box" (the training area). When your MILES system starts beeping you reach into your pocket, and the pre-prepped card says something like:

"You are a multiple bullet wound casualty. You have no broken bones, but are in extreme pain and are bleeding. you will bleed out in 15 minutes if not treated for bleeding and shock. You require evacuation within 12 hours." The second card is for the first responder (your battle buddy, Combat Life-Saver, Medic, EMT, etc., and goes over the wounds from the responder's point of view.

A female soldier's MILES went off and she looked at it quizzically, then handed the card to the Lieutenant, saying "Sir, this is yours."

"Multiple shrapnel wounds. Eye injury and lacerations. Traumatic amputation of foot and penis."

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 22:30:59 (ZULU)

Jefe and Sinister Dave,

You guys bring back memories. Being in "The Box" in Hohenfelds, GE my first time was an EYE opener. 6 hours into the box, our incoming Duece and half got hit by an enemy RPG..(6-502nd Inf then, only two trucks in the company that weren't 81mm mortor assets) There goes our sleeping bags, duffles and ONLY chow not in the ruck until the PEHA processes the loss of equpiment, chow and personnel.

So, now our CO need to figure out the truck isn't here, find out why, order a new one with said equipment and chow, THEN it has to be processed through the PEHA and get out two us. All the while we're carryin' an with our missions, with no replacement ammo or gear 'cept LBE/Rilfe...

As I have a way of makin' a long story long,,,, That kind of training reinforces that if the SHTF we'd be without gear and chow at LEAST 4 days, in Germany, in November...(took less time to get the pack in the CO's HMMWV changed)

Logistics are key to every aspect of our lives in the field, and LOTS of people don't think of that stuff. They were too busy trying to get "dead eye" Pete qualified onto the range...or zeroing MILES...

We can spend ALL the time in the world learning how and when to take the shot, but if ya ain't got the rounds.....

I'd have to agree, JRTC in Polk, in March was definatly gooood training. Their OPFOR was outstanding...

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Can feel fall settin in, down to the midd 80's :-), Midd-Tenn, - Tuesday, September 4, 2001, at 23:44:05 (ZULU)

Jefe - Agree on the fact that most officers have not the foggiest on sniper employment or deployment. I gave an Officer's Professional Development class to the 82nd in the 80s on that very subject. In the class I give at SOTIC on considerations for sniping, the first weakness I list is the Commander's lack of imagination and knowledge. However, I task them as the sniper and sniper coordinator to remedy that problem.

War Gaming is very important part of planning and must be done brutally and honestly. If I come up with a plan and my subordinates do not devils advocate it to death then I will be disappointed. At the same token I am just as upset when the next up takes it as a personal affront when you war game their plan. The players must see the possible weaknesses and holes in their planning and coordination. While all plans go in the crapper once on the ground, it is better to have fall back posiitons then to plan for the best and be horribly surprised. I would rather plan on the worst and be pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, I have been in both situations and horribly surprised sucks with a hospital stay.

Jim - Be careful thinking that the sniper should be in all situations. There are a number of weaknesses that the sniper has that he can not overcome. One of those weaknesses is that he can not be decisively engaged and thus can not hold ground. He can not engage a target that is either too far or too near. He must be employed and deployed according to his weaknesses, training and available equipment. This makes the sniper an asset that is valuable under certain circumstances but he not the answer to all things and circumstances. Thus he is not a key player only another asset to be exploited when the time comes. This is not an attempt to prove you wrong only an attempt to expand your thought process on this subject.

Sinister - When you stopping back by the team room for giggles. Drue got his class date for WOC school today. Man is he in for a "fun time"! :-)

If it runs by battery then it will fail at the absolute worse time. Just one of theose Mr. Murphy facts.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:08:04 (ZULU)

Jimbo the Doc: despite what a lot of units do, some of my best door-kickers and long-gunners (and guys who are trained at both) have been SF Medics. Commanders who only put the guy with the M-5 bag in the rear are often the ones who find out when you need a medic, you usually need him NOW! (Damn, howza little hole like that bleed so much?)

Then, start complicating the game by adding more stuff to the mix (a la DEA-style meth lab takedowns in full MOPP-4, in the dark, in the tropics).

At the base, elementary level it's still 5-paragraph fire and maneuver. Just a little harder.

A fit, educated (not book-learnin', but the been there-done that, dirty-sweaty-tired field training and live-fire and occasional two-way shooting gallery school of hard knocks) soldier knows what his body is capable of, but especially what his mind and fighting spirit are capable of (remember the Black Knight scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Some guys don't know when to quit, because it's not in their vocabulary).

A simple thing I once read made tremendous sense when applied to an individual soldier in the heat of combat. The body can sustain an incredible amount of punishment -- traumatic amputation, burns, broken bones, missile wounds, sucking chest wounds, blood loss, etc. -- just not all at once, or if the soldier knows what his damages are and can still operate (because he can prevent or control his body before it goes into shock, or he takes whatever action he needs to before succumbing to shock) there are legions of records where some make the supreme sacrifice before earning a posthumous Blue Max or Victoria Cross.

Yeah, medics are pretty damned important, and there usually ain't enough to go around.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:34:01 (ZULU)

I just ordered a barreled action from Howa/LSI. I paid about $270.00. I am going to order a tactical style laminated stock from Elk Ridge, it will run about another $200.00. I plan on pillar bedding it with steel bed from Brownell's. Is there anyone out there who has dealt with the Howa rifles? If so did I make a pretty good move or not?

Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
va, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 01:57:14 (ZULU)

Sarge, I use Black Hills almost exclusivly. My SSG PII gets 2670, my Rem 700 runs 2660. My shooting partner has a 20" tube on his 700 and he's getting 2580 ( so much for the 100 fps per inch theory ). It's good enough that I can't blame a miss on the ammo, it's my fault for sure.

Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 02:37:08 (ZULU)

Hey guys thanks for the help on the case trimmer issue, forester does make a long base which i didnt see before, however the standard trimmer has a built in 1/2 inch lengthing option. This is achieved by moving each side of the hardware out a 1/4 inch, man guess this means i need to be thinkin about buying more powder since i'll be loading a lot more of the big long thick cases, guess it could be worse (50 cal) but hey its all good n fun......keep the shots long and groups tight.

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 03:15:15 (ZULU)

One of youz guys sent me an e-mail today asking about doing Teflon on your stick... in the midst of sorting all the e-mail from all those wanton women, dying to have their way with my innocence, I lost the e-mail.

So here... you got questions, e-mail me again, (I promise I won't loose it)

I used a iron blueing tank, with cover that I bought from brownells... drilled two circles of 1/4" holes (6 each) to match the two front burners on the kitchen stove (I can do that.. I'm divorced ;)

The I drilled one 1/4" hole in the middle of each end, for rods to support the bbld action... and one 1/4" hole in the top, to insert a candy thermometer.

The cans of Teflon say shake for a minute or two... forgetaboutit!!! Shake them suckers about 20 minutes or more, or they will clog with clumps of moly!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 04:12:01 (ZULU)

Does anyone out there have a manual/instruction booklet on the Russian PU scope?

Thanks, Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 04:47:41 (ZULU)

Brian wrote, “ANDY'S DAD: What all do you carry when you deploy (average, everyday deployment) that will accommodate your needs as a sniper most of the time?”

As a certified has-been I must answer as if your question were hypothetical.

The standard waffle answer to such a question would be, “It depends.”

As we all know the gear will depend upon, Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Weather, etc. But here is how I organize my basic equipment;

Basic Ensemble:

O.D. Polypropylene underwear

O.D. Wool blend boot socks

Combat frame eyeglasses

Casio Digital Watch

Woodland Rip-Stop BDUs

Woodland Boonie Hat

Danner Arcadia Boots (Gortex)

O.D. Nomex flight gloves

Black Nylon Instructor Belt

O.D. Elastic suspenders

PDW, .45 Gov’t in thigh holster w/spare magazine

Kabar knife in kydex sheath on left thigh

Silva Ranger compass with lanyard

SWS:

Woodland drag bag

M40A1 w/M3LR, Harris bipod & Mike’s Sling

O.D. nylon stock pack

Kestral wind meter

Red LED mini light

Laminated wind data card

Ear plugs

5 rounds , Match Ammunition (in elastic loops)

Log Book w/mechanical pencil

Mil-Dot Master analog computer

Shooting sticks (graphite) buffalo hunter type

Woodland nylon butt sack

Leupold 25X spotting scope w/mil-dots & mini tripod

9 rounds, Match Ammunition (in elastic loops)

L.W. Support Module:

Camelback Mule, Woodland nylon w/burlap garnish

90 ounces, potable water

PUR Scout water purifier

Insect Repellant

Camouflage Face Paint

Mini Mag Flashlight w/red lens & lanyard

10 rounds, Match Ammunition (in stripper clips)

2 spare AA batteries

3 Grainola Bars

6 Slim Jims

H.W. Support Module:

ALICE Large w/frame modified by Tactical Tailor

In the interest of conserving bandwidth I’ll forego detailing the contents of the large ruck for now.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 12:07:47 (ZULU)

Robert French..

The Howas are good actions and if you need to know anything about them you can feel free to contact John Dustin at (970)884-0393. I met John a couple of years ago at a tactical shoot and he builds custom rifles using the Howa action and would be the man to talk to.

I talked to him again in August at the D&L shoot and told him of all the intrest in the Howa actions on this sight and he told me I could refer any of you guys with questions to him. He's a very nice guy and knows Howas inside and out. He builds some nice looking rifles on the Howa actions. Hope this helps.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:13:21 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I get 2680 - 2695 from my 24" Factory Rem tube. The stuff gave MOA at 300 during the crono session, and I plan on using it as a control for comparison to 175 SMK reloads.

BTW - I "found" a 5 gallon bucket full of LC 67 Match brass, once fired in my basement. Do you guys think it is suitable for accuracy work?.....:-)

Hope this isn't a repeat, the first try didn't show up???

Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
SOUTH WEST, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:24:47 (ZULU)

Sarge, on velocity from different weapons. Velocity is not a constant when you consider all the different bbls and chambers out there. Because of chamber sizes, bore dimensions, twists and how well the whole thing seals, velocity will be different between several different weapons that appear to be physically the same. I id a test with eight different sniper rifles:

1. PSS with 26"bbl Federal Match 175 ten rounds average 2600 (New bbl)

2. PSS 26", 200 rounds, 2600 fps average

3. PSS 24", unlknow amount of rounds 2575 average

4. PSS 26", 2000 rounds, 2550 ave

5. Winchester 26" HVY, 1000 rds, 2650 ave.

6. Norcal Nighthawk 26" KxP bbl, 2700 fps ave.

7. GA Precision Rock 22" Mike Rock bbl, 2625 ave.

8. NorCal M40A3 with 26" KxP bbl 2670 fps.

I did a second test with a Accuracy International 28" bbl in 338 Lapua, built by GA Precision against an HS Precision 28" bbl 338 Lapua. Thois was a testof how much powder it took to get the same velocity. In the HS I needed 86 grains of RL22 to get 2800 fps out of a 300 grain Sierra. In the GA Precision it only took 84 grains and 86 grains were way too much. Both shoot 1/2moa or better but the tighter bore and chamber dimensions of the GA Precision take less powder for the same velocity. With handloads you can compensate but with factory you are at the mercy of the equipment.

This is one reason I never give load data at the upper end. Goes weapon to weapon.

Sarge as you can see the better bbls tend to get more velocity.

Hope this helps

Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 13:32:35 (ZULU)

What I wrote and what I meant apparently did not synch on my last post...

Considering the way folks received my last post, I am AMAZED every response was constructive.... I am endlessly amazed by the genuine, unique cadre we have here...

Wargaming.. Jefe.. you are right, I did use the term incorrectly... what I was talking about is a computer "game" that let's you function as the eyes and ears of a small sized force (tactical management, small units)... and maneuver them against an opposing force of roughly equal capabilities... the "win" or "lose" outcome is determined by how well you move assets....I believe this to be the most potent use of a well trained hidden sniper with a bolt gun....I was not talking about "planning" at all.

Medics.. I have developed a fairly comprehensive understanding of how military medics are trained (some of it is similar to my training and some of it is better)... Unfortunately, I also have a tendency to assume you guys are reading with a context which you couldn't possibly have.... what I was talking about RE "training opportunities in your local volunteer organization" had nothing to do with field EMS....it has to do with effectively managing and directing manpower of a "military or para-military bent" while under extreme duress...

When I direct a three to four victim motor vehicle accident on a major highway, where extrication, fire suppression and EMS must be coordinated, I employ and refine manpower management skills which I believe would work equally as well in a "gunfight between opposing military units" ....to manage the gunfighters, not the victims...

Rick Boucher - "Be careful thinking that the sniper should be in all situations".... understood...

I have absolutely no military background or training... my opinions on this topic are based more on what a read here than on anything else...

For the purpose of constructive dialog, I have tried to put myself in the shoes of the "common grunt" that might be engaged... take for example Tony's BMP ambush link...

If you were picking equipment for your ten man team, would you choose the side that gets the 10 modern assault rifles, the armored vehicle, food, clothing and excellent support or would you take the pile of four old, shot out mausers, one unexploded arty shell, some wire and a det cap, and one RPG....

The answer is easy... but..

If I throw in that the "Mauser" team also gets to position half it's group to observe the enemy throughout the engagement (unarmed snipers w/ radios)...and they get to pre-position the other five men for a near perfect ambush point, with adequate time to setup...suddenly the decision switches sides... info and maneuver counter superior arms...

The skills I use to get my emergency vehicles on scene, deploy manpower, prioritize treatment and transport....these skills are very hard to refine and leave you very fast if you don't use them...

I advocate real life and death training for each and every person who would manage a small military unit into a meeting with the enemy...and I want to follow the direction of a forward deployed sniper looking right at the enemy....as opposed to someone staring at a map three miles behind the forward units....

You can get this exposure through a local fire or EMS unit... you do not get it in an ER (too safe) or while driving a police cruiser (too alone)...I don't know if a MILES based mock battle is the same thing... genuine death and danger has a way of changing the rules....

Hope I'm not being too off the wall. - Jim

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:17:05 (ZULU)

Jimbo, what's up boy ? Hey bro, I don't know about the exposure the guys in police cruisers get in your AO but in my hood, they get plenty. The other day in my unmarked Ford Taurus, I drove right through a damn gunfight between six gang bangers ON THE WAY TO FREAKING LUNCH !!!! Bout pissed my pants. Confiscated five pistols out of a barber shop and two off the street. Nobody hit. Nobody saw nothing. Typical. We usually get there most of the time before Fire or EMS. Just how it works here. All the death and danger you care to get into. Getting shot at sucks !!!!! Somalia, Port Arthur, LA or NY - really don't matter where the bullets come from.

Later bro, Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:53:05 (ZULU)

Jim, well done!

Ref: Wargaming

Years ago when the Earth was still cooling and I was a brand new Butter-Bar I would spend every spare minute playing a table top war game called "Dun Kempf". This was done on a 5'X 10' terrain model with little toy tanks etc. The game had a very strict set of rules and was quite involved. Playing this game let me learn valuable lessons about the art of war. Years later at Ft.Leavenworth I got to play larger more sophisticated "games". The value of such activities must not be under rated. I'm sure there must be PC based simulations today that would meet the needs of the small unit leader or sniper. Besides the training value, these games can be a real hoot.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 15:58:45 (ZULU)

Brain Sain.

You have misread me... I said the ER was safe and the police cruiser was a "solo mission"...

When was the last time you were called upon to coordinate a real time shoot out between twenty or so of your police brothers in separate cruisers, converging on a common location vs a well armed group of "bad guys"...throw in a air unit, maybe half dozen EMS rigs, etc... you get my point...this happens every once in a while, but certainly not on the order that a fire dept. will exercise it...

Police officers very often face danger ALONE because that's how the system works... firefighters face danger as a team and thus develop different skills...EMS workers face danger for their victims, as a team...SWAT, as a team, but not evolving in real time (you usually at least partially control the tempo) and not on equal terms (one against one), again, different.

I hope you see my point... I am not skilled at the type of people management you do on a daily basis but I can sure as hell see how it is necessary in your role...

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:11:38 (ZULU)

James Gibbons <jgibbons@vppsa.com>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:18:46 (ZULU)

I am a new poster and just getting set up for precision shooting.

I recently purchased a Remington PSS 700 in .308 and a Leupold 3.5-10x M3 scope. I am considering using Badger Rings and a Leupold Mk4 mount (as I do not have access to a 1000 yard range on a regular basis so I thought it might be better to use the Leupold base).

I am hoping I might get opinions or information as to whether or not there is any reason not to use this combination.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated!

Sincerely,

James Gibbons

James Gibbons <jgibbons@vppsa.com>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:22:34 (ZULU)

SEOs:

Agree with you on the SEO/NCO remedy re: employment and training issues Rick and most definately acted on them, although the receptions ranged from labeling me a troublemaker know it all to being well received and lots of benefits coming from it.

One of my non ending recommendations for NCODP and ODP at the unit level, is for the supporting element leaders (and I mean ALL of them, AT, Mortars, Medics, Commo in addition to snipers) to present short blocks of instruction on how they can support/integrate into operations. When they gave them at NCODP first, then refine the classes and present them at ODP. Of course in an infantry unit, ODP means new LTs, so they generally learn something. At the same time, the Os have something to offer from their training also at their skill level.

It works good for everybody and alot of learning goes on with all sides. It also promotes mutual respect, better teamwork and communications and identifies what leaders have their heads up their asses and corrections made.

As far as the SEO goes, I think that putting a former Scout/Sniper NCO in the S2 shop as part of an INF BNs TO&E would do wonders for the unit. I was very fortunate to have an outstanding S2 OIC AND NCOIC on active duty. While they didnt know much about the field, I definately had their ear and they listened to you based on credibility in the field alot more than rank.

Unless things have changed, (and god knows they have), I dont believe there is a formal slot of that nature in the S2 shop. Lots of other benefits up and down the chain from this type of organization.

However, it would really add to things to have a guy who knows the field, where MI types really dont (and I actually like MI). Having a guy like that even helps when REMBASS or other elements are attached for support and certainly helps with training, employment and dissemination.

KEY ?:

Do you have any decent unclass course material on the subject? Is DA working in this direction?

Thanks in advance for the advice and time.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 16:40:15 (ZULU)

Jim, no flame bro. No flame. I read you. Sorry if the printed word seemed caustic. Sometimes we do coordinate our stuff. When a new load of dope is coming in from Houston, we will hold over an entire shift of cops/SWAT/Narcs and coordinate one massive assault on the neighborhood where the drugs are being sold and distributed. The tempo is set by how they react to a serious bunch of crime fightin' where they ain't used to it but you never know what will happen. You know the gig, where there's dope - there's guns. Thank God they can't shoot any better than they do. We have to haul them away in school buses. One night, we busted so many, the crack was laying in the gutters on the street. Foot chases everywhere. Dope and guns everywhere. After it was all over, I walked along, kicking rocks of crack into the man hole grids. An 80 some odd year old black man sat on the curb. He had been sitting there with his bottle watching all the goings on around him. I sat down with him and asked how he was. He said to me " Son, we have too much freedom in this damn country ". That has always stuck with me.

WATCH YOURSELF BROTHER !!! BRIAN

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 17:59:44 (ZULU)

I believe we do not have enough freedom in this country.

TRAANSFAL...

I like Heinlien's version of freedom and accountability in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"...

You are either part of a polite, courteous society or you are fertilizer...simple, elegant, effective.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:29:06 (ZULU)

He said to me " Son, we have too much freedom in this damn country ".

He is wrong.

I think we have been here before.

Outta here.

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:37:42 (ZULU)

Ref: Heinlien

Andy and I watch "Starship Troopers" once a week. (for more than the shower scene) I really enjoy Heinlien's outlook. Generally our viewing is in a double feature with "Red Dawn".......

Ref: My good fortune

Earlier today a friend told me that a custom rifle I had built many years ago was on the rack at a local gunshop. I had regretted trading it off for years. Now it's in my truck.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:50:36 (ZULU)

James..

The combination you speak of will work well for you. Leupold is at the bottom of the rung as far as quality compared to others but is still more than up to the task.

The scope choice will be the main thing to consider. You should decide if you want to do precision shooting or tactical shooting. Tactical shooters opt more for the MOA scope compared to the quarter min. scopes.

If your shooting on KD ranges you may want to stay with the quarter min. scopes for the finer adjustments. If you shoot UKD ranges you may want to go to the MOA scope. It will be up to you and what you want your rig to do. Good Luck!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 19:52:50 (ZULU)

James

If you are willing to buy the Leupold Mark4 base you might as well buy the Badger tilted base instead. They can be bought from www.premierreticles.com for almost the same price as the Leupold base. I think they take 115 USD ro something close to that.

So if you will pay 90-100 USD for the base anyway, buy the Badger. Reselling it in case you want to get rid of them is easier than the Leupold base.

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 21:49:06 (ZULU)

James,

I'd have to agree with Hexa. The Badger is a few dollars more, and IF and WHEN you do get to 1K, (and you'll make yourself go there eventually) you'll have the ability to dial up to it. I don't think that's possible with the M3LR and a flat base. Only requiremnt is a cheek pad, and you'll probably get one anyway... Not to mention, the quality is second to NONE.. Just remember to shorten the front two screws :-) IMHO, the Badgers are CHEAP insurance.

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Can feel fall settin in, down to the midd 80's :-), Midd-Tenn, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 22:27:08 (ZULU)

I've got a couple of questions. This is my first post, so don't yell at me.

What I have is a rem 700 sendaro, 300 win mag (no scope or rings, etc). I would like to put my leupold variXIII 3.5x10x40 LR M1 on this rifle. What the question is, if I get the badger rings and base (20 moa forward cant) will I be capable of adjusting the scope from 100yards to 1000yards ? Not that the rifle or myself can shoot a 1000yards, but I would like to know I could adjust out that far. I know this will work with 308 but Ive never used a 300 win mag before. Would I need a base with more forward cant?

May be an easy question but would like to know for sure before spending 250 bucks on rings and base.

Excuse the spelling etc, I'm from the grand state of Tennessee. Thanks

Jon <weok@bellsouth.net>
knoxville, Tenn., USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:04:20 (ZULU)

Jon, you should have more than enough to get to 1000 with that set up. Depending on your load you should only need about 33 MOA to get to 1000, if that, and that scope and ring/mount set up has it. It's a good package and you should feel good about picking it up.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:19:34 (ZULU)

James Gibbons...

Spend the extra few bucks, and get the Badger... the 3.5x10 M3-LR, needs the forward taper, in order to work fully... the MK4 base is NOT at the bottom of the rung... but it's designed for the MK4-M3... a totally different aminal.

Once you start shooting a tac riffle, it gets under your skin, and you will find that you start planing your vacations around match sceduals.

Freedom??? Holy mackle' brudder... So we gots us too much freedom goin'on down there??? so that's the problem. Well we can fix that up real fast.

Just vote for Gore next time around... he'll that care of that problem... yup, we been here before!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
"I Love the smell of dead Cat in the morning"... (Famous quote from "Apocalypse Now"), USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:52:44 (ZULU)

Needed a good opinion on the Remington 700p rifle (police sharpshooter) I know its not an expensive gun but i'm looking for a new rifle that can reach at least 800 yards and still be effective. Also looking for a rifle that can shoot 1/2 MOA. I've read alot about the rifle but I would like some first hand knowledge of it. All opinions and suggestions welcome.

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Wednesday, September 5, 2001, at 23:57:45 (ZULU)

This is my first post after extensive reading and searching the hot tips and cold shots section and reading the duty roster off and one for several months. Like Fred Flamminis post on the 3rd I am looking at the FN Special Police Rifle. I am debating between this and a Remington 700 PSS. Can anyone tell me about the FN and how it shoots? Some other websites claim it shoots better than the PSS and that the chrome lined barrel will last longer. Does anyone have any experience with both of these or with the FN in particular? I also read that the PSS is the exact same as the Rem. 700 VS except for the stock. If this is true is the HS precision stock worth the $125 more I will have to pay for the PSS. I am wary of purchasing a PSS over the internet (because my local gun dealer cannot get a hold of one, he only has the VS) due to the fact that I have never seen more than a picture of the PSS. Also I know many of you cannot even say Ruger but has anyone shot/seen/heard of their new police rifle?

Thanks for you help

Drew

Andrew Kennedy <ark4194@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, Ks, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 01:12:00 (ZULU)

Rick, "Horribly surprised with a hospital stay"! Man, I almost wet myself! Came by to say hi to the new detail butt-boy before he goes off to W- OCS, but the weather was nice and the boss said you guys were all on the range.

Jim (and Jefe in a related sort of way), the best way to practice fast tempo exercises is to do them often. Start with TEWTs (Tactical Exercises Without Troops), which you can do on paper, maps, or on something like those kids' rugs with toy "Matchbox" cars, then on true ground (urban or rural, no matter), then roll into full-dress field exercises.

The "War gaming" we hashed about earlier is best done with the S2 representing the bad guys (he is usually the guy who knows what the villains are going to do in both the "Most likely course of action" and "Most dangerous course of action" to shoot holes in a plan (if it's solid, the plan should work -- if it's weak, it sucks out loud). The unit conducting the mission (Squad, Section, Platoon, Company Commanders) or the S3 war games friendly actions.

When you run a full-blown exercise (like the FBI and FEMA have started in the big cities) it takes a lot of resources running an Exercise Control Group, and lots of impartial markers and referees. Some of the results of these latest exercises are pretty sad (hospitals and first responders pretty much take it in the shorts because they're the ones trying to 1) assess what's going on at ground zero, and 2) once the first ones are hurt or infected the hospitals fill up and now you've got to ask for help from outside your metro area or county (from neighboring jurisdictions).

Kev, that old "Dunn Kempf" game was a great training aid. Too bad it went the way of the dodo (the Army's even figuring out now at the NTC that a lot of Battalion Commanders don't know how to use all the resources that are "Pushed down" to them instead of having to be "Pulled down" from higher). Heavy sigh. Was a great tool for teaching battalion and company tactics, and didn't cost anything (no overnights, no C-rations, no fuel, no TDY, etc.).

Sometimes you learn more or get more out of planning and command and control exercises by doing walk-talk / point-talk "Rock drills" (this rock is 1st squad, that rock is the support by fire element, etc.) before moving expensive aircraft and vehicles around, having troops bored out of their mind, and burning up valuable resources like time, fuel, ammo, and blade hours.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 01:23:55 (ZULU)

DAVE L:

Thank you for the guidance in that post! Good stuff.

Kevin will buy you a beer for that....

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 01:39:19 (ZULU)

It is not for drunks to expound on the blessings of Liberty, any more than it is for the lovers of Liberty to listen to them.......

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:09:34 (ZULU)

Steve da Hockey Ref:

Nah, that brass is worthless. Next time I'm up in PA I'll take it off your hands for ya' (no sense it cluttering up the garage).

(Now, the rest of you guys, don't let Steve read this --

Extracted from "You Can't Get there with a Gas Gun -- a Thousand Yard Odyssey", Bill Deane, Precision Shooting, August '95:

...Lake City brass... "Dates from 1964 to 1972 are very desirable and knowledgable reloaders will go to great lengths to acquire these years. Unfortunately, this older brass may only be good for 3 or 4 loads. Dates from 1985 to the present are equally as desirable and are much easier to obtain.

And the years between 1972 and 1985? Junk, pure and simple.")

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:19:46 (ZULU)

700PSS:

If you do a keyword search through the first half of 1999 in the archives ror " -Tom " , you will find many references to a "700 PSS From Hell (tm)", and my tale of woe getting my PSS up and shooting. The short version: after a trip back to Remington (and their lying to me about it beeing a sweet shooter with *their* ammo...bastards), a crown job, bedding in MarineTex and a whole lot of heartburn, it now shoots into .6 MOA out to 500 yards. Turnkey solution my ass. I'd give the FN a try, personaly. It's made by the rednecks riteheah in Colatown, South Cackylacky, donchaknow. I can drive to the factory and bitch in person if it wont shoot. :) And...if it indeed will shoot about 1/2 MOA and has a chrome-lined barrel, then thats it. No other solution to the problem need apply, as far as I am conserned. We have arrived in tactical rifle nirvana.

Mind you, if you get a good 700PSS, then it will be a very solid shooter. Lots of people here have been so fortunate. However, I am no longer the "Remington is the default solution" guy I once was.

-Tom

A Howa man now. :-)

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:20:05 (ZULU)

Andrew Kennedy,

We hashed this out not too long ago. If you want to check it out, it's in the Apr 2001 section, starts around the 17th and goes through into May (But ya can't see the last week in April).

There are also MANY guys on the site shooting BOTH PSS's and FNSPR's/Stealth's/HBV's. I refer back to the last few months for loads, DM mag fixes and general impressions of said rifles. Great info...

Don't take this to mean, "Go read the Archives" I just can't do these guys justice.

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:29:01 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad - Good post on equipment, would add shears and camp saw as well as digging tools such as entrenching tool and garden hand trowel. Also make sure that the compass is very handy during those periods on a stalk that you are at worms eye view and get 90 to 180 degrees out on you crawl. Better to be able to check when you can. Have the good Silva with an inclinometer for checking angles as well.

Dave - Trust me, I wet myself as well! :-) Good post on the war gaming and rock and stick. The computer has ruined the old techniques of low tech. TEWTs are the best way to get all of your support and action pukes on one sheet of music for a plan. It also shows the holes and dropped support real fast. The same goes with the "uh sir, can't do that with what we have" type of surprises. Allows for the sir to go get what is needed. That is why it is best for the "push down" so that the men have a range of possiblilies. I used to hate the statement of "well you didn't ask for it", which went right along with "what the hell do you want the moon?". Can't win sometimes.

Jefe - It used to be, in a far off time in a distant land, that the staff slots were filled by those "old farts" that were hurt but still had the knowledge. This allowed for a much more integrated staff with the action pukes. (figured that since I am a FAG that I would now cal the action guys pukes. :-)) This also allowed for a mentoring of the new officers on the ways of staff actually supporting instead of demanding. Sinister I know you remember those times as you are now getting into old fart land as well. :-)

It is still the responsibility of the NCOs to guide and train. Remember the old adage of officer and NCO questions and answers. Officers ask what must be done by when. The NCOs answer with how and who and then trains the personnel to do it. ALL THE PERSONNEL!

Hold hard guys I have rambled way too much tonight. Sniper conference tomorrow, so fun will be had by all.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 02:44:42 (ZULU)

Gents,

Latest Precision Shooting Magazine (page 81) has a Sinclair International add for Hornady 6.5 x .284 Brass. If this is good stuff then life is indeed good and the 6.5 just go another shot in the "brass"(pun intended.

Now all we need is the Winchester Stealth and Rem PSS chambered for this puppy, from the factory, and we'll be set!

Another recon due tomorrow. Will report back if'n the bear don't get me...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett(God's Country), OR, U.S. of A - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 04:54:53 (ZULU)

RICK:

I hear you on that All the Way and then some.

I was very fortunate to have enlisted in 82. I started in the 82nd and my sqd ldr, PSG, 1SG, CSM were all 173rd vets. You simply could not have done much better than those guys. Wildmen and some very tough bastards who you were glad were on your side.

The 173rd was disbanded by then as you know, but that must have been one hell of a unit because I have met several guys from the herd and every single one of them was squared the @#$% away. We could use a Brigade like that again.

I appreciate the guidance.

Mission First, Troops Always!

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 13:41:00 (ZULU)

'lito..

I didn't mean that the Leupold MK-4 base was not a good "Quality" base I was trying to say that out of the good ones its the "Cheaper" one as far as price. I have always like the Leupold stuff and for the money you can't beat it.

I know there are other brands that claim to be better but how strong does a mount or rings have to be thats holding a delicate object that will break long before any good mount or ring does.

The bottom line is that the scope will always be the weak link in the system. Just my opinion of course ducking for cover now!!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 14:17:19 (ZULU)

Ref: 173rd.

Jefe, I have it on good authority that the colors are being reactivated. Your wish may come true.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 14:36:40 (ZULU)

Sinister,

I figgered as much. Even better, I may be able to get a couple more 5 gallon buckets full in the same condition. I figure that they need shot once to fire form them to my chamber, and then neck size for a while. All have been fired out of the same National match M1a....Not the best treatment for brass used in a bolt gun, but the price will be obscenely low.

Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
SOUTH WEST, PA, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 15:19:42 (ZULU)

Go Here:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2116/combatjump.htm

Then we'll talk.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 17:33:25 (ZULU)

I was looking online the other day for anyway I can purchase a M24 and I came across "Texas Brigade Armory" and they make M24's for $2100. I saw the picture and it is identical to the "T". They used Rem action, H-S adjustable stock, etc, etc. But wait here's what got me realing thinking about buyin this puppy, they claim to test all their guns out before they leave the shop and they guarantee 1/4 MOA!

They that is better than what the army gets. I was really considering buying the rifle it looks like and claims to shoot as well as or better than the real deal. I want to pass it on to you guys and hear your opinion on it. Please give me some advice here. All opinions welcome.

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 19:13:08 (ZULU)

Kevin that load bearing equipment carried is a little far fetched to me and in my day I carried a ton of shit with all the como gear and explosives needed for DA missions. Hell I didn't carry half that much shit when I moved from one post to another. The heaviest load I ever jumped with was in jumpmaster school when we had to jump with mortar round crates with three 50 lb sandbags inside strapped to your harness and carring a weapon. Those quick release straps never worked for me when I hit the ground. Ooouch that smarts !!

Today a combat jump would be a HALO team jumping with tandem rigs and the passenger carrying the M249 SAW locked and loaded while the jumper directs the chute. All that other non essential stuff can be air dropped behind me. Yee Haaaa !!! or was that Geronomoooo !!!

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2001, at 19:29:53 (ZULU)

Hey Pat thanks again for telling me about John Dustin. He was a wealth of knowledge on the Howa rifles. Any one else out there interested in Howa rifles I strongly suggest you contact this guy if you have any questions. I think I just might become a Howa man.

Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
va, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 00:51:34 (ZULU)

Christian...

There have been MANY, MANY complaints on this site, about "Texas Brigade Armory", and Mike Lau, who runs the place... bad service... guys have waited YEARS for their stick... they don't return e-mail, They tell you "any day now" (for years)... etc.

You might consider contacting George Gardner, who is a regular on this site... he doesn't have a cool name for his business, like "Radioactive Brigade Armory"... but he is one of the finest tactical riffle builders IN THE COUNTRY... there are many guys on this site that have his sticks, and they are second to NONE!!

I think he is delivering in 6 to 8 weeks, but you need to ask him.

You can reach George at:

<A10XRifle@aol.com>

He has a website, with tons of pictures, but I don't remember the address... he will give it to you in the e-mail.

I can't recommend him enough.

And... by the way... George Gardner DOES NOT LIE, or MAKE EXCUSES!!!, And you can take that to the BANK!

Pablito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's so fine... with wine :)), USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 01:15:56 (ZULU)

Still waiting after 2.5 years now. I second Pablito's statement.

TR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 02:11:25 (ZULU)

TR.....................

This brought me out of the "Lurk Mode"..........

IF, you are still WAITING for a rifle after this length of time.........you need serious HELP......

I would send him a certified, registered letter, and DEMAND my $$$$ or my piece.......give him 2 weeks to deliver, or your lawyer will be bringing suit.........

Make it CLEAR, you will NOT rescend ONCE you start proceedings......

It will be actual costs, plus time, plus damages.......

This HAS, and WILL work..............Flash bang time........

Dos Zapatos

Two Shoes <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 02:48:25 (ZULU)

Christian F,

From what I understand TBA rifles are pretty good, but I certainly wouldn't want to wait TWO YEARS or more to get a rifle. It is also really important to compare apples to apples regarding custom gunsmithing. How much of the work is still done in house? Another custom smith that charges $5,000+ for a Rem 700 based action does very little of the actual work in house, farming it out to subcontractors.

Not to sound like Mr. Cat Eradicator, but check out the archives regarding TBA and while you are poking around, scan for other DR posters first hand interaction with the other custom gun builders.

Quality tactical rifles are not inexpensive, so it is important (for me at least) to really understand what I am spending my hard to come by cash on, and when I will be able to shoot it!

Good question, it provokes some good interaction on the site.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 04:55:07 (ZULU)

Christian, I third Lito's remarks. George Gardner has a very good rep and that's why i just sent him my rifle to get my new stock bedded. He actually called me to let me know the rifle and new stock got to him. Very impressive. He's a great guy to talk to and will return e-mails. Also his base rifle is actually cheaper than the TBA and no 2 year wait. You can find him at www.dennysguns.com and then click on the icon for precision rifles. Drop him a line or call to discuss a rifle with him. Good luck.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 10:47:09 (ZULU)

Chriatian,

A fourth endorsement for George at GA Precision, He had my rifle back to me BEFORE he said he would. EXCELLENT work, and he also responded to each and every one of my emails and phone calls quickly. On top of that he was courtious(sp??)enough not to laugh at me when I inquired about my action being glued in... it's that damn tight :-)

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 11:09:57 (ZULU)

Thanks to everyone who offered their opinions on combining Badger rings with Leupold bases (and on bases in general) both privately and on-forum. I appreciate all of the time taken by people to assist me!

My unbroken string of positive experiences with fellow firearm owners continues :-)!

Thanks again,

James Gibbons

James Gibbons <jgibbons@vppsa.com>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 11:55:43 (ZULU)

Christian- GA Precision/George Gardner- In my experience, have never dealt with a better 'smith. His work is absolutely as good as you'll find, he is very fairly priced, timely, and the real shocker- he actually answers the phone and returns calls and emails!! Give George a call at 816-221-1844,you most certainly will not regret it and will be happily shooting your GA tackdriver while some less fortunate folks are still waiting for a return call or their $5K+ rifle for over a year! Good luck.

Seuss <samiam@netrax.net>
Lovely, PA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 12:35:22 (ZULU)

TBA and Other Premium Boltguns:

I have a friend that has a TBA gun that he bought in NIB condition from an individual (note: no two-year wait). It is a very solid piece of gear and shoots very well indeed. However, when informed of TBAs rep for poor service and kinda'-sorta' bending the truth on delivery dates, my friend failed to see the purpose in going through all that.

As a halfway competant rifle builder myself, I understand what TBA, the Chandlers and others on the same page are doing and appriciate the fact that they are makiing a premium product to very high standards, but these very high-end, multi-thousand dollar price tag rifles just sort of leave me cold. This stuff is not rocket science, guys. Its just a mechanical device, and a rather simple one at that. Frankly, any decent action with a good-quality tube screwed into it and bedded properly into a solid piece of plastic or laminate should go .5 MOA, and beyond that point, who the hell cares for what we are interested in doing? Thats better than any mortal can hold under field conditions anyway. I think what a lot of people are buying (and at a rather high price, IMHO) is confidance. Not to say that this is not of value, but I think some of this stuff that people sell is gold plating, to a degree.

Personaly, I would get a Howa or FN police gun and have it bedded in MarineTex, and be happy for a while.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 13:10:01 (ZULU)

On what Tom said...

Sure... nobody "needs" a special rifle... but

I think the issue of special, or high quality riffles is not an easy one to pack away.

The average Winchester Stealth, or HBV, will shoot better than the average guy can shoot in the field, and better than many beginners can shoot from a bench, and they are only $600 or a little more(depending on how much your dealer likes you).

Part of having a custom rifle from a good maker, is self confidence. That's 'specially true for the beginner, or intermeadate shooter who can't tell if those lousy groups are him, or the rifle. With a questionable rifle, he may think those 1" groups are the best he can get, and not push himself... and most don't have the skills to "tweek" an Off the Rack rifle to get the best out of it... If he has a "Really good" rifle, and it is a PROVEN shooter with common match ammo, it will push him to be better... he will never be satisfied with 3/4" groups, from a riffle that has proven itself to be capable of 1/4". If you know the gun is capable, you will push yourself to do it!

Also, there is pride in having something just plain "nice" that other's admire... depending on our social circle, we do it with our clothes, our cars, our watches, our houses, our fly rods, our guns, and of course, our women... it's a "Guy thing"!

There are some occasional low end riffles that will shoot under .5"... but not to many guys will drag you to their gun safe, and beam when they show you their $300 rifle.

Also, throughout the ages, men critters have taken great pride in their tools (how many guys brag about the set of rachets they got from the Chinee' mail order house)... and even more pride in their weapons.

Men have traditionally taken great pride in stocks of 100% Burl Walnut, beautiful fit and finish, perhaps engraving... and you don't have to talk about guns... look at the weapons of the Zulu, the Samurai, and the American Indian... not just a functional weapon, but truly ornate and beautiful in their culture's own symbolism.

As to people not being able to shoot well from a field position... I disagree. I shot a 0.46" group at 405 (measured) yards, with an M24 I built, in front of witnesses (one of which is "Rob1", a Rosterfarian)... from a Harris bipod, and shoulder contact... no sandbag, stockbag or beanbag. Never, ever, settle for mediocre shooting.

While that is better than my usual (which is piss poor ;)... lotsa guys can shoot in the 3's and 4's, in the field, all day long...

On what Andy's Dad said in the next post (man, I love this editing feature :))... if a rifle meets the design specs of an M40A1, M21, M24. or whatever... then no matter who built it, it "IS" what it "IS" (and we don't need no clinton definitions of what "IS"... "IS")

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
If it walks like a Duck, Quacks like a Duck, and looks like a Cat... it's a Cat!, and, it's dead! - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 14:10:05 (ZULU)

Ref: Custom Rifles

It is a pleasure just to sit with m M40A1 in my lap. To me it's a thing of beauty and a work of art. I had it built to spec. by a local riflesmith and didn't have to wait years and pay thousands for a name.

I can't call it a "Chandler Rifle" because it's not. But I call it a M40A1 because that's what it is. Some folks refer to similar rifles as "clones". I don't know why because if it quacks like a duck etc.

Some may consider it a small issue but besides the confidence and pride I feel in ownership, I can clean it with a half dozen patches. Try that with an off the rack PSS.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 14:55:23 (ZULU)

Again, I must agree with the feline vaporizer. I like obtaining and using custom tactical rifles for a number of reasons, but he touched on most of the important ones for me.

I know if I missed, or f@#ed up, or got a lousy group it was me that didn't function properly and not the rifle. (it certainly minimizes my excuses!)

Having very high quality rifles has pushed me to focus on other elements of shooting and not mind screw myself wondering if it was me or the rifle!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 15:31:51 (ZULU)

Have to agree with the cat man (Again). Its really a matter of confidence to know that you have the best equiptment and also a matter of pride.

I even take it a step further and try to get the best loads and brass thats available also.(Now that I have good rifles I still need excuses for misses) I hate it when I miss a target and I don't know why!!! If the shot breaks clean and it felt good then it damn well better hit the target in my book. Granted, there are the enviromental factors but those aside it should be on the mark.

I think having the best equiptment you can afford gives you that and that translates to confidence. We have all shot the occasional "One" hole group but a good rifle shoots good groups all the time not just a great one once in awhile.

Tom said a mouth full when he said a good shooting rifle does "NOT" have to cost 3 to $4000.00 dollars. Mine cost around 12 to $1500.00 and they shoot damn fine. Granted I don't have a steel trigger guard and teflon finish on mine but I have everything else and I don't think that the guard and coating are that much. Just my thoughts on this.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 16:23:47 (ZULU)

Custom Rifles:

Hey, I can see where pride of ownership has a certain value. I like nice stuff too. I think that part of it is how my attitude towards firearms has evolved in certain respects. I have always been a rifle buff, but started out reading Rifle magazine (back when it was useful) and got all jacked up on Turkish walnut this and Niedner buttplate that, all that Colorado School of Trades stuff. I could get high on the smell of inletting black :-). I actually got halfway decent at checkering and polishing up for a blue job. But, over time I became steadily more interested in function and less in form. Part of this was from being poor and playing with military surplus stuff and trying to make it shoot like the expensive stuff I could not afford (like, a 700 ADL from Wal-Mart). Later, working on National Match M1 and M14 rifles allmost forced me to focus more on function, because there is so much of this sort of focus required just to keep the damn things working. Now I typically build profoundly ugly rifles that work pretty damn good, with is just as well considering the fact that they are going to be Gillefied and painted before it is all over with. To me, pride of ownership is 95% function and how it looks or "feels" in some subjective sense is largely irrelevant. My PSS holds .6 MOA off of a bipod from 100 to 500 yards, confirmed, repeatedly, every day. That is thoroulghy OK in my book. At this point, I am more interested in enhancing stability and durability than I am absolute accuracy. Hence, my search for a cost-effective replacement for the cheesy aluminum bottom metal on the PSS. As for the cleaning issue, yeah, its a pain. I never said that I would buy another PSS, much less that mine is perfect. Its just more than adequate, and will continue to improve as time and funds permit.

As for field shooting, I know that some awfully good shooting can be done off of a bipod. But then, we get into the whole queston of wether or not a bipod prone constitutes a truly field-worthy position. Most of the people I have talked to and read on the matter that do this for a living seem to be of the opinion that one usualy ends up shooting while laying drooped over a log, on ones side, with one shoulde blade dug into a tree trunk and the other hanging in space while the rifles front end rests on another log with your balled-up fist serving as a rest, or some other kind of wierdness they dont really teach in school. The question becomes one of, can you beat .6 MOA while doing THAT? I cant, though I intend to start practicing shooting from some mondo bizzaro positions. In any event, I am confidant that it will be a long time before I will be able to outshoot my PSS under these or most other conditions. About the time I wash out the throat in the factory tube, I will be good enough to move on to a Hart or Obermeyer, I figure. Then, we shall see.

In the meantime, I will hopefully be in a position to try and push that .6 MOA figure out to the pracical limit of the 168 MK, say 800 or 900 yards. That would be of much more utility than smaller groups at shorter ranges, IMHO.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 16:30:47 (ZULU)

"........tree trunk and the other hanging in space while the rifles

front end rests on another log with your balled-up fist serving as a rest, or some other kind of wierdness they dont really teach in school. The question becomes one of, can you beat .6 MOA while doing THAT?"

Yessir I can.

But I've been working on doing it since age 9..........42 years ago. :)))

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 17:45:11 (ZULU)

Re: super duper custom guns

I demand a certain level of accuracy from my working rifles, that being 3/4 MOA, which isn't asking very much in all honesty. What I do demand is bulletproof reliability and consistancy, none of this wandering zero crap. That's what you should be concerned about. My issue M40a1 is a 3/4 minute gun, with SB it doesn't do any better. With M118LR I can put 10rds on a black 3/4inch paster at 100yds, all day, everyday, and that's what matters to me. Tiny little groups off benchs are for those BR nerds. Do it off your pack, off a bipod, or off a camera tripod through window in the veg, and then you're talking stuff relevant to snipers. It's a lot more man then gear, lots of guys make good enough guns, it's good enough people that are damned hard to find. Can't spend money to get that. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 17:49:37 (ZULU)

I want to thank everyone who has responed to my TBA inquiry. It is safe to say I won't be dealing with them. However, I just stopped by george gardener's precision rifle page and it seems like if george if everything you say he is then I'll be ordering a rifle from him. I even saw a model M24 that they made oin his photo gallery (looks great!!!) I emailed him and I await his response so I'll keep you alll posted... AND THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP.

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 18:28:02 (ZULU)

Tom and Ken..

You both have valid points but most of us on here are not snipers or a lot are exsnipers. However a lot of us are still tactical shooters who compete in matches and some of the matches require sub half MOA accuracy.

I think this is where the accuracy demands come into play that many of us are talking about. For all around field work I am sure MOA would be just fine. However when shooting at air gun targets at 100yds or at a space between two heads that is a mere 1" wide at 200yds the accuracy demands do go up.

I know some of these seem unrealistic in real world shooting but in matches if you want to run with the big dogs you need the equiptment to compete with them.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 19:48:27 (ZULU)

We come full circle to discussing custom guns again.

Is an accurate measure of the sniper whether or not (if military or police) he can take an off-the-rack issued sniper rifle and, after zeroing and customizing (adjustments and camouflaging) he can hit the target within mission requirements?

For an individual owner, I would imagine a HUGE challenge would be to go to somewhere like Storm or Autauga or any number of other comparable locations, and be told "Swap your rifle with the owner two to the left. Zero from 100 to 600 yards, and confirm every 50 yards from 600 to 800 yards (all on iron maidens) ten minutes from now. WARNING ORDER to follow in two hours..."

Will that borrowed rifle / scope / ammo hit the targets you want to hit, with your ammo, based on your skills? It should! If not, you know what components to endorse or avoid ("Hey, that new tool is THE HEAT!" Or, "Man, that Ruger ain't worth the metal it's turned out of." No slight or endorsement necessarily made on purpose).

If it's yours for hobbying, hunting, competing, training sustainment, or just to have to own, buy what you want and can afford. Know the capabilities and limitations of your equipment and yourself.

Then train like hell.

Bipods? Gee, is that why they're detachable and / or the legs fold up out of the way? Terrain and situation dictate.

OLD?! What the heck, Rick? If you stop moving and I can find my glasses I'ma gonna smack you with my cane! (Damn walker wheels!)

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Friday, September 7, 2001, at 20:18:47 (ZULU)

ALL of my riffles will outshoot me! Everyone of them.

I once entertained the idea of getting started in 1000 yard bench rest. I called a damn fine builder of such riffles that lives near Charlotte and inquired as to cost. He asked if I wanted to 'shoot' or 'compete'. Confused, I asked why those questions. He said a riffle just built to 'shoot' at the matches would run about 2 grand, a riffle built to 'compete' would START at 5 grand with the sky as the limit. I dismissed the idea of competing and decided that me and the PSS would just shoot for fun. In October, I hope to start unless this fall is as busy as this spring and summer was.

Most definitely agree that you make do with what you have until you can afford a more pricey toy. Reality sucks but the price of toys is directly related to quality. No different for fishing tackle, golf clubs or other toys. You get what you pay for and if you are lucky, the riffle you buy will end up being a real shooter.

In my college days at ECU, I befriended a nice old gentleman (at least 75, he wasn't sure) that had approval to hunt on the same land as I did. He carried an old 22 hornet taped to a piece of the original wood stock. As we were walking down one of the field roads toward the Tar River a nice size cotton mouth made itself known with a certain amount of irritableness. At about 30 feet I raised my shotgun to dispatch the critter and before I could shoulder it the gentleman had put the little bullet in the head of the snake directly between the eyes FROM THE HIP. Obviously I was amazed as he offered the suggestion that I need to quit aiming and start shooting! It was then that I noticed that the hornet did not have any sights on it!

Moral of the story, the gentleman only had one rifle and new exactly how to use it. I have often considered dumping most of my weapons and buy just a couple fine quality weapons and learn them to the point that I don't have to aim anymore as the gentleman suggested. It is just real hard to bring myself to do this so I have yet to make that jump.

BEWARE THE MAN THAT ONLY HAS ONE GUN!

NOTICE:

For all of you beach bums, it is again time for fun, frolic and fishing at Cherry Grove, S.C. starting 9/15. Shaggers and beach music afficiandos will be arriving in droves to partake of drink and dance. Of course I abhore drinking and partying so I will most likely be stuck on the Cherry Grove pier for a week :) Should any of you Rosterferians like to make it down that way, I will of course be wearing some type of snipercountry.com attire for recognition when I am forced by the lovely Meatwoman to leave the pier and enter the various dens of sin to mingle with the masses. If you can't get my attention, just yell "hey asshole" and I am sure to respond. I can also be recognized as a balding yet handsome dude standing in the corner of Ducks II with a pitcher of long island ice tea with a straw in it.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 22:25:03 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Now you have done it! You made me spill beer on my keyboard again!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 23:04:15 (ZULU)

Bolt-ster...

"BEWARE THE MAN THAT ONLY HAS ONE GUN!"

You damn betcha, cuz he's really mean and pissed! His wifie won't let him buy anymore ;))

Geoff MacCormick...

Your mail server is kicking my e-mails back. Pay your bill! ;)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 23:15:31 (ZULU)

Gents,

Regarding Custom Rifles: There are any number of good reasons for owning a custom rifle. Pride of ownership is one, but the one thing that probably dirves us all in that direction is that we can't get what we want and have to have it made. Whether the issue is caliber, accuracy, style, wood vs fiberglass, etc.

I have three custom tactical rifles. I had them build because that was the only way I could get what I wanted.

On the other hand, my custom hunting rifles are because I enjoy the hunt and a fine custom (wood stocked) rifle adds to the enjoyment.

My latest project was a meld of both. I couldn't get what I wanted in caliber and quality. Hence my 23" Krieger .284 Win barrel and custom Mexican Mauser action. Blackburn trigger and bottom metal, custom mounts. All on a trim action that weighs 4 ounces less than a Winchester M70, controlled round feed, and of course it's a MAUSER.

A Loopie 1.75 X 6 Vari-x III tops it off.

With this one I'll get what I want, in the caliber I want, and be able to say I stocked it in walnut, myself.

Hmmm, wonder about a "high grade" sniper...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, September 7, 2001, at 23:43:57 (ZULU)

'Lito...Huh? I am getting mail from everywhere else..I dunno. I will call technical support (ROFLMAO).

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 00:03:34 (ZULU)

Geoff MacCormick...

Read the fine print... you've been blacklisted somewhere along the line (I told you not to use "those" words ;)

Send an e-mail to:

blacklist-admin@mwci.net

And tell them that you'll be good ;)

>"Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 591 your host is blacklisted by relays.ordb.org. Send your questions to blacklist-admin@mwci.net Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:07:48 -0400"<

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 01:25:54 (ZULU)

Well it seems I really stirred up sh*t in here:) I've taken everyone one's advice on talking to george (actually emailing each other) and he seems like a hell of a guy. I left 2 messages for him and he returned both of them. I was looking for a M24 model rifle that would shoot at least 1/2 moa and keep the price around $2000 without sacrificing quality. George responed "no problem" and he can do it in this decade too!!!

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 03:29:58 (ZULU)

Hi All,

I have a question for you guys, something I haven't run across in my 25+ years of shooting/reloading. A friend said that he read an article about how the dust from polishing media is left in the case and gets expelled into the barrel when the reloaded round is fired. This dust leads to throat erosion and premature barrel wear especially when using crushed walnut as polishing media. Since I use crushed walnut to polish all my cases I'm thinking sh*$, what am I doing to my barrels. Have any of you heard of this before? Friend says that the article recommended blowing the dust out of the cases with compressed air before they are loaded. Do any of you do this, would it help?

Is this one of those things that doesn't matter, or do I need to add another step to my reloading process?

Take Care

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 04:42:44 (ZULU)

Robert Opp...

I buy a LOT of fired cases, and many are grungy. I polish the cases first, then wash them in liquid Tide, and dry them, before loading them.

I wouldn't venture an opinion on the wearing out of the barrel therory, but I don't want that abrasive dust and crap in my dies, or on my loading machines.

If you do a few hundred cases at a time, you can use a $12.99 hair drier (pink works best ;)... if you do brass in the thousands, build yourself a wire mesh drying rack with a fan.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 11:23:11 (ZULU)

For you folks that want to play with a ballistics program there's an Excel spreadsheet at http://www.nucleus.com/~cronhelm/ballistics.html that I use. I originally got the spreadsheet from and later modified it with Peter Cronhelm. It's named the Ranging Ballistic Computer (RBC), it needs Microsoft Excel to run but has the benefit of being able to load onto a handheld computer (Cassiopeia or Jornada type). It's not password locked or anything such as that so anyone can modify it. Download it from Peter's site by selecting RBC from his list of downloads, he has other goot stuff too.

This is a FREE WARE program, no pestering, ever.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 13:06:54 (ZULU)

"Death from Afar" series of books by Chandler!

Very high dollar books, are they worth the read? Anybody got a set they want to get rid of?

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 16:59:16 (ZULU)

To Jerry from Canada that called me about muzzle brakes.

Please call again or send me an e-mail as I made a mistake and hit the erase button instead of the save button so I cannot call you back.

Sorry about that.

Jerry

Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 22:28:46 (ZULU)

Tony Yackowski...

I tried to call you, but you are unlisted.

Ken's wife was hurt in a horse accident, and they are on the way to the hospital.

Check your e-mail, and call the number that I sent you, about Monday at Storm.

<edit>... other guys... she'll be OK, so don't worry.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 00:24:45 (ZULU)

Wish the Major a speedy recovery! Dang horses, make good dogfood ;^)

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 02:32:15 (ZULU)

Gents,

Picked up a Winch M70 Sporter/Varmint(so marked on the barrel) in, you guessed it, .308. Rifle is new, as I took factory grease off the bolt and reciever rails. Bore is sparkling, but I cleaned anyway. Barrel is 26" and tapers to .680" at the target crowned muzzle. Beautiful wood stock. I set the trigger for about 3 lb's per 'Lito's instructions, mounted a 3.5 X 10 Loopie Vari-X III. Loaded 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips and 175 gr. Sierra MK's for testing in it.

Anyone have any experience with these or have seen one? Believe this is a "pre-Stealth" series gun. It IS sexy. Will let you all know how it shoots.

This brings my number of .308 to an even eight. I don't think I'll need professional help until I get an even dozen or so...;-)

Hope your all having a great weekend.

As an aside, I caught part of the "Santana" segment of Woodstock last night. Not sure, but thought I saw myself in the front row. Yes! There are those of us old enough to remember the event.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 03:34:26 (ZULU)

Oh wooooow maaaan! Wes, I have the woodstock movie set and most all of those nasty old albums, yes albums! Country Joe and the Fish, Hendrix, CSN, Joan and all the gang. Music, other than beach and shag, just don't get no better than that! Brings back some real fine memories, well I remember some of it anyway.

Purple haze is still in my brain! Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 14:14:39 (ZULU)

Good books,

The Bear and the Dragon, Tom Clancy.

This book has it all: disfunctional superpowers, corruption, sex, brave soldiers, real leaders and a grumpy old sniper who lives in the woods and hunts wolves.

Now if only Mr. Clancy would only use seperate chapters to seperate different plot strings, instead of a different plot for each paragraph. It's kinda hard for us stoopid rednecks to follow ;0

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 16:30:02 (ZULU)

Hogs - The Major's back home - long night in the E.R.

She fell forward off of a trotting horse - broke her collar bone and shoulder blade. Plus - it's a pretty healthy jolt when you hit the ground from that far up.

Arm/shoulder is slung, he's pretty well out of it for now. Gonna be a painful next several days.

thanks for the prayers and support.

Tony and I were scheduled to team up for SSII at storm mountain starting monday - obvsiously that's scrubbed for my part for this year.

Pablito - thanks for relaying the message to Tony. I have not heard from him or made contact with him - but I have enough messages planted at the econolodge in keyser, wv - and at storm mountain.

Ken

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 17:04:42 (ZULU)

Get well soon Major! Is the horse still living?

Feeling your pain, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 17:36:04 (ZULU)

And it's One, Two, Three, what are we fight'n for......

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 17:37:49 (ZULU)

A while back someone posted that they needed to know how to use the reticle of the Redfield LE-12, or LE-9. We got into contact with each other, but I could not find my stinkin spec sheet. Well, now I found it, but don't have the e-mail address for the guy that wanted it. If anyone needs this info, e-mail me and I will shoot you a copy of it.

CR <crscls@poncacity.net>
PC, Okla., USA, Planet Earth - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 18:34:52 (ZULU)

Why a custom stick...

for me its simple, i want a custom rifle so i know for sure the rifle is not the problem any longer and i can start searching for any errors in my own style of shooting.

(Stefan, read the comments made by Wes, Sin Dave, lito and Bolt etc etc thats exactly why i want something better than a Savage or Winchester HBV...starting to get my drift/ reason?)

Books;

Read "Holding the Zero" from Gerald Seymour, interesting little story about a civilian long range competitor, Gus Peake, who turns sniper in Iraq to help the Kurdish people against Saddam, who in returns send his best sniper, Major Karim Aziz to take Gus out.

Was fun to read but felt a bit like a ripp-off, cause the story is very similar to Enemy at the Gates, Zaitsjev vs Konig.

I also have a book by Stephen Hunter, which is about a former Vietnam-Vet sniper named Bob Lee Swagger, who is asked to help some sort of secret service to prevent a long range assasination but in the long run gets set-up himself, especially like one of the last fights where he almost single-handed keeps hordes of mercenary's at bay from the top of a hill with just a 5 shot bolt-action...

Have any of you Rosterfarians read this book and if so, could you tell me the english title, cause i have the dutch translation, "Dood in het vizier" (which sucks) and would like to order the english version?

2 week Life-firing excercise;

Just back for the weekend, had a great week in Bergen-Belsen, we shot 30 TOW rockets, unfortenately we missed alot of them, most likely due to a bad lot number because lots of them went straight upwards after 800 meters or so due to wire breaks...

Stefan even got to visit us last thursday, he spend a whole day on the TOW range with us, unfortenately that day we were shooting inerts instead of the big bang 71E's, but i think he had a great day, misses and all.

Also did some night-firing and the new night-sights on top of our C7a1's (m16a2) performed exelent, we even did a competition at 100 meters in totall darkness, at paper 10-ring targets which we could see as if it were daylight, that sharp, i won with 6 v-bulls and 4 tens, just ahead of our recce's platoonleader who "only" had 5 v-bulls. Probably due to the fact that we were concentrating more than normally (during daylight), everyone was shooting great, most nines and tens were shot.

Nice thing about this night-sight, it has a built in bullet-drop-compensator, when you focus at a target the reticle moves along the vertical axis, so no matter what range, you are always on target.

(haven't figured out yet how this works exactly, because when i focus the sight it will have a different impact than when another shooter focus it to his eyes, guess it works roughly, but it does work, we shot at targets from 50 to 300 meters and all went down with first shot strikes)

Tuesday will be cqb-drills and wednesday will be full of trenches and unknown distances along with some AT4 shooting.

Gonna miss the Army life,

(15 working days till i once again will be a civilian again)

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 22:16:36 (ZULU)

Michael Odom <darkeru@aol.com>
- Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 22:48:01 (ZULU)

Michael Odom <darkeru@aol.com>
- Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 22:49:05 (ZULU)

Greetings all,

I need some help here.I just got a 700 vls for a wedding gift from my wife. I have dropped the trigger pull from 8lbs to 21/2lbs, free floated the bbl channel in the stock. It is a beautiful stock but when it came out of the box there were a lot of high spots in the bbl channel.

I was wondering what else i could do to it, to get it up to par. I am interested in tactical shooting matches (a lot more time behind the stick is the first place to start, I know). Its shooting about .75 MOA @100 fom the bench. It will be an as I can afford it sort of thing.

I was thinking of pillar bedding and glass bedding.I can make the pillar myself at work.(being a machinist has some good points... even if jobs are not very plentiful here.) Is this a good next move ?

Anyone here in Oregon who is into tactical shooting? if so please let me know. I have a lot of land to shoot on and would like to set up a practice course

Thanks

Mike

Michael Odom <darkeru@aol.com>
Salem, Or, USA - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 23:05:10 (ZULU)

Mike, congratulations on your new toy. You certainly have a nice wifie! What caliber did you get? What glass, rings and base do you have on it?

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 23:35:03 (ZULU)

Marko,

I have the book you are asking about. I will dig it out and let you know the title as soon as I find it.

FOUND IT! the english title is Black Light.

Another fiction book you may like is At Close Quarters, another of Gerald Seymour's books.

It is about an Israeli sniper and a British diplomat sent into the Beqa'a valley in Lebanon to target a terrorist leader.

Set in the mid 1980's, it's not bad for a fiction book.

Sniff

Sniff <akh805@actrix.co.nz>
Auckland, New Zealand - Sunday, September 9, 2001, at 23:55:49 (ZULU)

Time for "Band of Brothers". Signed up for HBO just to watch this. Hope it doesn't have too much girl stuff in it!

Another good read is "The 13th Valley" by DelVecchio.

Time to pop some corn, Bolt headed for the recliner and out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 00:48:51 (ZULU)

Bolt,

it's a .308 ,its got a tasco 2.5-10 tactical and weaver rings and bases. badger rings and bases are in the mail. and a new scope is in the near future. not sure what yet, heard good things about nightforce , they sure look nice.

thanks

mike

Michael Odom <darkeru@aol.com>
Salem, Or, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 03:16:22 (ZULU)

Like 'lito I wash my cases (no tide, but pink palmolive...sooo soft), but I use compressed air with a rubber blow nib to dry out the cases immediately after washing them. This takes time but the result is total confidence that the cases are nice and clean. I also use a bit of case polish in the walnuts. (Can't shoot worth shit, so I have to look pretty)

I suspect walnut is a bit softer than the steel of a barrel, so the resulting theory of wear wouldn't make sense.

Hank <hank@vocallect.com>
Sore thumbs, Loading room, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 06:00:14 (ZULU)

Barrel wear. The comments on case cleaning abrasives were made by Boots Obermeyer. You can read some of his accumulated experience/wisdom at www.jarheadtop.com. This is Jim Owens site on highpower shooting. The stuff by Boots & Jack Krieger makes very interesting reading.

Agree with 'Lito, you're supposed to tumble brass before the loading process to clean off stuff that might damage your dies. Nothing like Tide to remove sizing lube and any abrasives that might be left before you start stuffing the cases.

VLS owner-envy you your wife. Besides trigger & freefloat you probably ought to bed the recoil lug. I also used Acra-Glas without the glass floc to coat all the inletting inside the stock to minimize moisture absorption. Don't worry too much about the reach to the rifling. When loaded to function through the magazine, my VLS does better than .5 MOA if I'm doing my part. With the laminated stock, the pillars aren't really necessary. The action bolt torque is only about 5 ft lbs. Do it if it makes you feel good. I tend to pour mine with glass.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 08:41:28 (ZULU)

Ref: Band of Brothers

Two thumbs up.

All The Way!

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 10:09:58 (ZULU)

Alright Guys. I know not sniper related, but I thought you'll might enjoy a laugh and that this one might appeal to the sense of humour on this site..hence a joke.

Several years before the Gulf War, Barbara Walters did a story on gender roles

in Kuwait. Among her observations, she noted then that women customarily walked

about 10 feet behind their husbands.

Barbara returned to Kuwait recently and observed that the men now walked several

yards behind their wives. Ms. Walters approached one of the women and said,

"This is marvelous. Can you tell the free world just what enabled women here to

achieve this reversal of roles?"

"Land mines," said the Kuwaiti woman.

hope you enjoyed it Guys.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 12:29:35 (ZULU)

Hey sniper dudes. Back from the weekend. Moved/remodeling in the RAIN sucks pond water. Don't do it. You know, after 13 years of snipin', SWATin', competitive shootin' and huntin' you really accumulate some crap. I have roughly 17,000 !!!! once fired Federal 308 M brass. Started keeping it way back when for when I am able to retire and do some high power shooting. Sure adds up quick.

LITO and MEDICJIM: Hey bros, no jack booted folks here in SE Texas. Didn't mean to start something with that. Just thought the comment from an OLD, OLD black man was uncommon for the times. (Especially in my AO) I think the Rodney King verdict, OJ verdict and others affected the justice system at all levels nationwide. Sure made the streets crazy for a while. Wasn't expecting the old man to say something like that.

LITO: Skeeters bad there ? Gotta go, one's flying off with my Four Runner. Doubled yesterday with my 870 but they were too big for the Lab to fetch.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 12:56:27 (ZULU)

Marco..

I believe the book your asking about is called "Point of Impact" by Stephen Hunter. He wrote a couple of others that follow up that story too. Black Light is more about his father and how he was killed. There is about 4 or 5 books out that deal with Bob and his father, all are a good read.

Hunter also wrote a really good book called "Day before Midnight" its about a Russian SF team that takes over a missle sight in the USA to launch on Russia. The story is about a ex Viet Nam tunnel rat and a ex VC female tunnel rat who go in after them by crawling into cracks in the earth around the complex.

Watched Band of Brothers last night and it was excellent!! I just hate waiting for a week inbetween segments.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 13:20:04 (ZULU)

Ken H,

Prayers and Get Well Soon to your wife.

Marco,

I believe the Stephen Hunter book you are looking for is "Point of Impact." One of the final scenes of this book is where Bob Lee is on top of a hill picking off the enemy.

I would love to shoot one more TOW! Guess it will never happen though.

Semper Fi all

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 13:26:38 (ZULU)

Tony White <50buildr@bellsouth.net>...

Tony White's wife died this past Thursday. Tony is a regular on this site, and most of the 50BMG sites.

He builds 50 BMG Caliber Barrett rifles, and is a regular face at 50 cal events.

This site extends it's condolances to you, Tony.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 13:33:28 (ZULU)

Tony,

I am sorry for your loss and my prayers are with you and your family.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 14:26:25 (ZULU)

Tony..

So sorry to hear about your loss, my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Ken..

Hope the wife is doing better, Bolt is right, horses make good dog food or glue.

Does anyone know the phone number for Kreiger barrels?? I couldn't find a web sight for them either. Thanks!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 16:09:54 (ZULU)

Ref: PDWs

Do military snipers carry both the SWS and a AR when in the field?

Ref: Jumping the SWS

How do you rig the SWS to jump? Is the M1951 case used? What has been the history of maintaining zero after a jump?

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 16:59:45 (ZULU)

Tony: Sorry for your loss. Many prayers for you and yours.

Brian K. Sain

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:01:16 (ZULU)

Hey fellas, anybody had any experience with extremely short .308 rifles i.e. 12-16in. barrels ? Maybe some of you former spec ops guys or barrel industry folk ?

PETER L: Great joke. Will have to borrow that one from you.

Ya'll ever tried to move a 1200 lb. gun safe in the rain ? Like dancing with an elephant in the elephant pen. Lots of pushin', slippin' and slidin' but not much getting accomplished.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:19:27 (ZULU)

Hi Guys, Has any one out there ever tried lightening an AICS, I'm sure I don't need all that alluminium !!

and how do you'll rate the Browning BDA 9mm as a side arm, its not a very common pistol over here, mine is the only one I have ever seen(it was an xmas present from my ex wife)thanks Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:21:55 (ZULU)

Brian, you are welcome to pass the joke off as your own( as so will I), ref the short barrel 308's, they bark a bit loud, tend to try to jump out your hands,( depending on rifle weight) and velocity loss may be a factor to consider depending on how far you intend to shoot with it. of course if you intend to use sub-sonic ammo then you don't need all that tube, what about these varminting pistols, striker and so on, how long are the barrels on them, I've more experience with short barrel mausers in 8x57, I have cut lots of barrels down to 16", they are popular as a nachsuche (follow up) weapon for tracking wounded Wild Boar, velocity loss at these ranges isn't a factor and they make for a fast handling compact rifle, but they too bark and jump a lot, me, I prefer my pistol, it(9mm para) may not have the stopping power of a round nosed 8mm bullet from a rifle, but in these thickets where the Boars hide its faster and has more shots before I need to reload, I have shortened one 30-06 to 16" its also a mauser action, has a muzzle break and is a real tack driver, but its loud !! Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 17:44:52 (ZULU)

Damn computer is playing up again !! Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 18:07:41 (ZULU)

Question concerning Mauser SR97:

1) Is this rifle only avalible in .338?

2) Are they avalible in the us?

3) How much is retail price for the SR97?

4) Anybody have any input on this rifle system?

5) How is accuracy?

Thanks for the reply.

Please e-mail responses

Doug S. <dhsmith@isincnet.com>
Austin, Texas, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 18:26:58 (ZULU)

Tony, very saddened for your loss.

If I or any of the other Rosterferians can do anything, you know how to get hold of us. We are one big extended family here and a loss to one of us is a loss to all of us.

Bolt

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 20:52:50 (ZULU)

VLS owner. Leave the thing alone!! Take what you have and shoot it. SPend your money on ammunition. 2.5lb trigger is too light. Set the thing at 3.5 pounds and shoot it. Remingtons have a bad history of slam firing on light triggers. There may be some other opinions on this but 2.5 pounds is too light in my opinion. My Armament Tech is at 3.2 pounds and is just fine. If you grip the weapon properly you wont have any problems with 3.5 pounds. If you fifi grip the thing even a 2.5 pound trigger gets heavy.

Don't pillar bed the thing or screw with anything else if its holding .75 moa now!! You'll start on the highway to hell. You'll want to change this and modify that. Spend money on ammo and range time.

Just my humble opinion.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:05:30 (ZULU)

Does anyone out there know what happened to Autauga Rifles? I was talking to Rusty about six months ago about doing some work on my Rem 700. I tried to call last week and all the numbers had been disconnected, and I can't seem to pull up the website. It's like the company just fell off the face of the earth (no forwarding numbers).

Any insight would be appreciated?

Out--Todd

Todd Stevenson <tango_09@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:33:06 (ZULU)

For those of you interested, I have just cut the Emporium over to the new format as well. Click on my name to read the old messages as they have not been migrated. Only one posted on the new Emporium will appear there.

I've asked Ken to, if he thinks it necessary, just cut back to the old one - in case something really messes up. Hopefully that is not necessary.

Next up will be deletion of messages!

Take care you guys (and gals)

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:33:28 (ZULU)

PETER: Back before 20in. bbl tactical rifles were cool, I had a company in Phoenix, Arizona known as AWC build me a 20 in. gun (unsuppressed). It shot fine. Of course the bench resters have shot 20 inchers for years. The AWC guys also told me they were building some 14 in. guns for the US Navy SEALs. They claimed the SEALs wanted them because they jumped easier on HALO Ops where the situation on the ground dictated a shorter range shot. As a young SWAT pup, it sure got me to thinking even way back then. (I was fresh off the handgun silhouette competition circuit at the time). With the right stock and scope, I would think a semi heavy 16 in. bbl would be sweet to rappel with and handy as hell. Maybe with a scout scope mount from AO or something similiar. For cop distances, the target will never know it ain't a 26 in. tube. As you stated, muzzle blast would certainly be a consideration, as would recoil. I would think a brake would only make it louder. I have extensive experience shooting Thompson Center Contenders and Remington XP 100s. w/ 10-14 in. bbls. Personal experience has proven them very accurate (way past where they ought to be). A full length 308 or 708 in a handgun is a handful to say the least and jump straight up when you touch them off. I would think it would be much more manageable in a shoulder fired weapon. Thinking of building another project gun but wanted to run it by this salty crowd first. Component selection is imperative I think. Leupold, Badger or AO, Rem, naturally. But what stock ? Any ideas ? I have an AICS laying around and the Rem LTW is real close too. I have one of those too but thought an even shorter one might be neat as hell. Just thinking out loud. 16 in. would avoid the Federal paperwork. The DPMS Sweet Sixteen comes to mind but in a bolt gun. Anybody jump in here anytime . . .

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 21:45:40 (ZULU)

Ref: Ammunition Progress

I just finished another range session with the new M40A1.

At 44.0 grains of Varget w/175 HPBT I'm getting 2,660 fps.

(virgin Winchester brass trimmed to 2.000 long and WLR primers)

The screens were set about 20 feet from the muzzle. I'm shooting for the magical 2,675 fps mark. Do you guys think I'm getting much velocity loss in those first 20 feet?

Groups averaged at .776 diameter.

I shot a .460 diameter group a while ago and just can't seem to do it again. I can see how a guy could get all caught up in the benchrest thing. I figure 3/4 MOA will do for now.

The wind blew over my new chrono screens. No damage, they popped apart just like the handbook said they would. I'm sandbagging the tripod legs from now on. I don't want to push my luck.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 22:03:37 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad...

you ain't loosing no 25fps in those feet.

Go to 44.2.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Monday, September 10, 2001, at 22:41:59 (ZULU)

Howdy SC,

I need some help picking some gear; this is the first place I had in mind. I am going to be participating in some extensive field training and have been given an equipment list.

Rucksack w/frame. Looks like I'll be humpin about 50 lbs for 2-5 days & nights. Who makes a good product? Blackhawk, MOLLE? Custom backpack... get a good frame from a hiking company and have someone put a ruck on it?

A good field knife. gotta hump it, don't need a tree-cutter. Benchmade Nimravus? SOG Seal knife?

E-Tool... a few out there, who's works?

If anyone could provide any info I would really appreciate it. I work in an urban environment and the Boy Scouts never taught me about tactical fieldgear, so any advice will be great. Thank you in advance.

Out

Tim <Tim120Cali@aol.com>
- Monday, September 10, 2001, at 22:59:23 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad,

I'm using 45.00 in Winchester cases and WLR primers for 2702/9es/4sd.

Barrel length is 23.5, chamber is .343 neck and SAAMI min spec dimension.

5 round groups run in the low .4's.

Varget wil get you there.....1 tenth grain at a time.

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 00:07:36 (ZULU)

Tony,

Our sincerest condolences and prayers to both you and your family from the Sniper Country Staff.

Tim,

Read Slugboys Article and peruse the Hot Tips & Cold Shots section.

I'd get a 4-6" field knife KABAR, Buck, etc. etc.

Brian Sain why don't you burn him some of your ideas?

Gooch?

Master Rick??

Jefe???

Kevins(Andys Dad)

Go to 15' from muzzle, try FederalS Gold Medal primers, and Federal Brass. Why do i feel I am repeteing myself here???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 00:16:35 (ZULU)

Gents,

Tony, sorry to hear of your loss. Let me/us know if there is anything we can do to assist. Myself and the staff at Willamette Small Arms Academy send our sincere condolences.

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, 97326 - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:19:15 (ZULU)

Getns,

Best pack for 2-5 days? I use and have used an Alice Medium in the soft configuration. If you need more gear than that will hold I use an Alice Large with frame. Frankly, the more expensive packs are not worth the money, IMHO. There are a few exceptions.

My personal favorite is a bosomy amazon type "camp follower/cook/sleeping bag warmer" who will carry your pack for you and let you take care of the hunting chores. Blond, redhead, or brunette...your choice. Of course at 'Litos age he prefers grey...;-)

Explain to wife or girlfriend that: "Hey, she came with the sleeping bag"!

'Lito my cat told me to say that! He's been sharpening his claws and wants to meet you...

Semper Fi,

Wes

(Who wants a Mountain Lion for a "kitty")

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:27:35 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad...

Stay the course on Win brass and primers... Winchester is the best Domestic brass available, only Lapua and Norma are better... and Fed Primers have soft cups, making it look like you have pressure, when you don't.

Wes... (Nom De' Plume ;)

At my age, I prefer bottled readheaded floozies... cheap and easy (I ain't gots no time for no long courtships ;)... and I got some VERY LONG CLAWS of my own ;)

Bruce Robinson...

Can you get 3200fps out of a Hornet?? I'll let you know on Friday (along with pictures ;)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:27:57 (ZULU)

Tony - So very sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences goes out to you and your family.

Kevin - WE used to bag the SWS and carry in hand our CAR-15. That said, we carried Win M70 or Rem 700s. these donot make good first contact weapons. The guys that carreid the M21s did not carry any ohter weapons. Today it is up to the sniper and we are issued both the M24 and the M4 with various SOPMOD "accessaries".

On jumping we use the 1950 weapons container for static line and jump it open for HALO or HAHO. We use Bushnell boeresights to register the zero's grid reference and then after the jump check for error. We jump five times a year with up to 24 students, depending in the number that "opps" out of the course, and have only noted a radical zero change three times. Once was a weapon that freefell, on its own, from about 1000 ft. Another was a toss up as to the jump or the tumble down an embankment. While the third was only contributed to the jump but he lowered his weapon "poorly" by allowing it to hit the ruck late and thus the ground on the first bounce.

Brian - Depending on the range, some units use modified pistols as sniper weapon systems. The French, Isrealis, and the US to name but a few. The short barrel is for optimal long range shooting past 600. If the shooting is to be shorter then the shorter barrel will work just fine with the normal drop off of muzzle velocity. The real problem is the visual and noise signature that the short barrel will present to the enemy in a tactical sense. This includes both day and night signature. "Lovely flame you are throwing there mate." :-)

Gooch - Agree 100% on the bullets and practice. Many use the extra money hoping for an improvement that would have been made through more shooting. They then lower their shooting time due to the custom work. In my opinion too many use too light of a trigger pull and it causes them problems. Usually by tightening up the trigger and going back to basics the shooter will shoot better and safer. I have found, that in most cases, when a .5 to .75 moa gun doesn't shoot where the shooter wanted it to, it is because it shot EXACTLY where the shooter pointed it. :-)

Tim - Buy a KBar, piss on those expensive knives that people want to stick others with. Do you need an e tool? If so then a standard military folder works fine and it is cheap and compact. They also make a dandy weapon when needed. Know of a dude (Guys, the original was the typo of a tired dud) that got the Congressional by whacking a bunch of Chinese during the Korean war with one. of the older models. Rucks, personal preference depending on how much you need to carry. BlackHawk makes some good gear but you will pay for it. Actually correct packing does more for you then an expensive ruck. What is the temp range for the trip, mission, etc. Email me with more details and I will try ot help out.

Well got to go guys. Weed out some of the guys tomorrow possibly. have the Sniper marks exam and if there is wind it can be fun! Humidity has been a pain, expecially for an old fart like myself.

Hold Hard guys and have good "clean?" fun. Oh yeah, agree on the blond/brunett/redhead bearer!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:47:03 (ZULU)

Tony,

Condolences, sir. There's not much more I can say than that (unfortunately).

Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:53:50 (ZULU)

Thanks to everyone who sent well wishes. I have no words right now, maybe later, but I just can't do it now.

I want to thank you all though. I haven't had time to reply to any mails. Don't think they didn't go unread. I read them all.

Thanks again.

______________________________

Ginger,

You will be a part of me forever,

Tony

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 02:18:57 (ZULU)

Tony,

sorry to hear of your loss, thoughts and prayers are with you.........

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
pa, usa - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 04:27:16 (ZULU)

Tony, my condolences to your family.

Anyone with dope for a 300 mag, 190 @2961, from 100 up to 1000. I realize I have to go out and shoot it to see what MY rig will do. Just looking for a starting point to build on. Also if anyone's interested got some pics of the camo paint job I did on my Win 70 22-250 HB Varmint. Thanks for your help. Joe

joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turlock, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 05:31:34 (ZULU)

Gents,

Tim, I agree with Rick. The knife you carry will be a tool, as much as a knife. IMHO, the K-bar is without equal. As I write this a presentation K-bar and plaque is on my wall, that one of my units gave me. My REAL K-bar is in the top of my parachute/gear pack ready for recall from retirement...

E-tools. If you can get the old style wood handled one. You don't pinch the shit out of yourself and the handle style makes it perform better in the weapons category.

One of my First Sergeants had three confirmed in Vietnam with one and a Silver Star to go with it. He was knick-named "E-tool" Koontz. Good man.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 05:41:14 (ZULU)

Tactical Intervention Specialists Site Overhaul

Just a quick note to let you all know that Mike "Undude" Miller's Tactical Intervention Specialists website has just been overhauled. There is a new look and feel to it. I am soliciting feedback at tenarius@memorableplaces.com if you have any comments or better yet criticism which I can use to better it.

Please have a look at http://www.tacticalintervention.com

Also Mike is going to be releasing a new sling this month.. ya might wana watch the site for that!

Thanks 'Gentlemen'!

Charles - Webmaster For Nor-Cal Precision <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 08:23:48 (ZULU)

Ref: Load Development

'lito,

Go to 44.2

Wilco, Out

Ref: He's Growing Up

Tonight is the first night of the Sporter Rifle Season at the club.

Andy told me last night he had made plans to spend the evening with his girlfriend. I guess that's it then.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 10:43:41 (ZULU)

Been gone for a couple days, and catching up now...damn.

Tony, my prayers are with you and your family. Sorry I can't do more than express this.

I have a "USMC" model Kabar, it's as sexy as a claw hammer, but works perfectly well, is KISS simple, good quality, and very reasonably priced. You really can't go wrong with it IMHO.

Recieved my "clearance special" Starlight double rifle case. Very impressive. It holds up to Sarge's SC review in every way. The defect that gives it the special pricing is almost invisible, and Brack Wilson was exemplary to deal with. The included instruction sheet and knife to custom cut the foam is a nice touch....details like that seem to be an exception and not the norm nowadays. I WILL be getting more.

Mike O...I have the very same 2.5-10X42mm varmint/tactical. They are a little rough on the outside, but the glass seems fairly good even disregarding the price. It has mil dots, and THAT's a start for learning how to use 'em. Plus, I didn't have to get real nervous about painting it! Like you, I am going to upgrade when I can, in fact a pair of MK4 rings are sitting here right now.

Marco, that focus adjustment based auto-ranging/targeting feature on your night sight sounds dreamy. Has anyone tried that with a day sight? Maybe it wouldn't be precise enough for sniping missions, but what about a medium to long range battle rifle with backup irons for close in quick work? Just curious. Perhaps having to focus for different distances is too inefficient.

Ken, hope the Major gets better soon.

All for now, take care hawgs.

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 11:45:37 (ZULU)

OK guys. It's ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two planes into the world Trade center in NY and one into the Pentagon. Just reported black smoke from the Pentagon. Best wishes and prayers to all working in these locations and their families.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 13:47:05 (ZULU)

Question about tumbler media and barrel wear. I know you guys were talking about possibles problems with walnut media but what about corn cob media? Any problems there? I never really noticed any media on my cases or even in them that might do any damage. Not even much dust. So what do you guyus think?

Well we just went to Threat Con Charlie so I gotta run. Can you believe all these attacks!

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 13:51:55 (ZULU)

This is NOT a joke...

This morning, two large twin engined jet airliners attacked, in Kamakizi fasion, the World Trade Center buildings in New York... both building were struck about 2/3rd's the way up, tearing huge holes into the buildinge. The first was at 9:02 AM, the second was about 18 minutes after.

The second plane was caught on video, and appeared to go right into the building, and then explode.

Both buildings are on fire, and the smoke is visible for 30 miles...

A third plane has struck the Pentagon, and the Pentagon is burning...

... and a forth plane is believed to have crashed near the White house.

Again... this is NOT A JOKE.

The FBI suspects the Benladen (sp?) terrorist to be behind it.

When are we going to learn to tighten our borders before the horse gets stolen??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's fine... with wine., - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:01:53 (ZULU)

'Lito,

When we get serious about securing them, of course.

I wonder what else is going on that hasn't been discovered yet.

Never mind, as I type, an unconfirmed report by AP via ABC of a car bomb at State.

Anyone have any hard info besides the TV repeating itself every 5 minutes? This isn't over yet.

Geoff

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:27:41 (ZULU)

One of the World Trade Center buildings has collapsed into a pile of rubble... the other is burning out of control.

As I typed this, the second Trade Center has collapased... they are both history. The buildings held 50,000 people, and there was little time to evacuate...

Yes... a car bomb went off at the Dept of State.

This cannot be the work of a few radicals from a basement in Brooklyn... this is the real thing.

Get your hip boots out.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:30:39 (ZULU)

All readers,

Listening to the radio here at work, this is very disastrous to the US as a whole. ter king about the Commander in Chief, I'm expecting to get called back to duty. Whenever someone hears about whether or not inactive reserves are getting called back in, please post it. Thanks in advance. Maybe Binladen will finally get taken out!

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:37:50 (ZULU)

Tony,

Our prayers are with you. Sorry we can't do more.

Andy's Dad, don't worry, that girl thing is only temporary. After a few years with one he'll be looking for an excuse to get away for awhile ; )

Any of yous guys have a trick for getting scope crosshairs vertical/horizontal right the first time? I know how to check if they are by dialing up and checking to see if the poi is vertical of the origonal poi.

Can you believe those ragheads?

I don't think we need to close any more bases, I think we should move them to our borders!

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 14:39:19 (ZULU)

Tony - my condolences

My prayers are with all the victims of the terrorist attacks in the US

I can only hope for a swift determination of the originators so they can be dealt with.

Kevin - of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 15:21:13 (ZULU)

Upgrade to Threat Con Delta here. Not good.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 15:42:25 (ZULU)

Gents,

Let's keep the "what if's" and conjecture on this mornings terrorist attacks to a minimum. We're gonna need the bandwidth.

To those who have been lost our heartfelt condolences and prayers for their families.

To those wounded a prayer for speedy recovery and return to their loved ones.

To the bastards that did this...the gloves are off.

As Yamamoto said, after Pearl Harbor: "I fear we have only succeeded in waking a sleeping giant".

Semper Fi,

Wes

(RetiYamaMajor/pissed off in Blodgett, Oregon)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, 97326 - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 15:44:35 (ZULU)

News update from my better half.

All military installations on high security status. All non-essential personnel sent home. Navy ship in chicago area at Great Lakes Naval Recruit Training depot on ready status also. Dept of Veterans affairs hospitals on ready status nationwide in case of need for beds.

God bless us all.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
Kenosha, WI, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 16:21:58 (ZULU)

My thoughts and prayers go out to all victims (and their families and friends )of this terrible, terrible cowardly attack on the USA. Here at the European Space Operations Centre we are all in a state of shock and disbelief, a guy on my team has been franticaly trying to contact his Brother who works either in or around the World Trade Centre, so this outrage is being felt not only in the US but around the world, shocking, terrible, I'm speechless, this is an act of war in my book and it makes me sick.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 17:27:13 (ZULU)

To all you assholes that might be a party to todays festivities who lurk on this site,

Stand by....Payback is a medevac.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 17:41:34 (ZULU)

Brian, short barrels.. I have a Rem 700 with a 20"Heym barrel, 1 in 10 twist, it is extreemly accurate and depending which country I am in, it is at times suppressed(where legal).

What I would put together in your case would be a Rem 700, with a heavey barrel, 16" long, 1 in 10 twist, threaded for a silencer, I would put this in an AICS folding stock, I would lighten the alluminium chassis to save weight, Badger mounts+rings, and a Schmidt & Bender 1.5-6x42 PMII. The suppressor will reduce recoil, eliminate muzzle flash and blast.

Question how short a barrel can you get in the AICS before it doesn't clear the stock, I will measure it when I get home, also if you are worried about barrel lenght regulations, fix the suppressor permanently, but then it makes the thing long again, isn't there an article on a sniper pistol here some where? Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 17:45:54 (ZULU)

Hogs -

Time for our nation to whip some responsible ass for this one.

I had the Major down at DeWitt army hospital (Ft Belvoir, Va) for a followup appointment this a.m. They were calling for equipment, wheelchairs, etc, over the intercom. When we were leaving - they went into their emergency procedures mode, calling all personnel.

Cell and switched public telco services in our area have been redirected....

checking gps.....

Hang tuff hogs, check your zero's.....

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, US of A - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:08:55 (ZULU)

Andy just called me at the office. He said,"What about uncle Mike?" (who works in the Pentagon) I said, "I don't know buddy, we'll have to wait and see." God, I wish he never had to worry about such a thing. God be with you Mike.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:34:32 (ZULU)

More from the fed.

> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

> September 11, 2001

> WASHINGTON - Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony J. Principi has

> directed the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to adopt a special

> "continuity of operations" plan in the wake of terrorist attacks in New

> York and Washington.

> "All VA medical facilities are open. All VA employees are safe. All VA

> resources will be dedicated to helping our nation through this emergency,"

> Principi said.

> In the immediate aftermath of the bombings, VA medical facilities in New

> York, Washington, Baltimore and Altoona, Pa., were readied to handle

> casualties. VA personnel are trained to back up the nation's medical

> network in emergencies.

> VA's headquarters near the White House was evacuated Tuesday morning and

> key management personnel shifted to an undisclosed location.

> "One of VA's missions has always been to provide medical backup when

> community resources are overwhelmed," Principi said. "We stand ready to

> provide all assistance through this tragedy."

> Christine R. Schlater

> Secretary, Medical Center Director

> Commercial: 847.578.3700

> Fax: 847.578.3727

> mailto:Christine.Schlater@med.va.gov

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
Kenosha, WI, US of A - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:35:21 (ZULU)

Cry havoc and lose the dogs of war.

Steve Dzupin <DZUPPI@AOL.COM>
New Joisey, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 18:45:58 (ZULU)

Had two friends in the World Trade. NYPD / ATF.

Give blood.

Sain

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 19:11:51 (ZULU)

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

Fitz. <sfitzgerald@arpac.com>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 19:27:07 (ZULU)

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

"And when they slip into that awful darkness, let them go with hunger of body, hunger of soul, and hunger of heart, that few, nay, that none of that rightful food of war be left, and that all will be witness to what hath prevailed."

...Paul J. Coburn - 11Sept01

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Even the cats weap today, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 19:49:03 (ZULU)

Test.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 20:24:58 (ZULU)

Hope eveyone here is ok and freinds & family.

Go git them scumbag bastards and dont stop til its done.

To all gettin called up God bless.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
rainin again , downunder, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 20:59:33 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Why give them a medevac? Just a body bag will do!

Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Oklahoma, USA by GAWD!! - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:04:55 (ZULU)

This is a goddamn disgrace. Pardon my french here but I spent all day today clearing out Philadelphia's major historical sites as we also felt that we could be in danger. As police Lt. you need to keep yourself professional but al that went out the window after seeing the pictures I saw today. I hope and pray (and im an atheist) for all the families of those injured and hurt. I'm even considering going into the army recruiting offices and enlisting. The anger and emotion I feel right not is pure and total hatred toward the middle east. I was also told that the plane that crashed down near pittsburg was shot down by our military because that plane was headed for the sears tower in chicago. I believe our military made the right move and hats off to them for that. What angered more about this act of cowardnice was the cheering and celebrating they are doing in Palestine. The free world needs to get together and do everyone a favor and destroy and bomb the middle east til the is nothing left. This has gone to far and the repercussions need to be severe.

To all my fellow Americans,

Lt. Chris Fenico

"we will move on"

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:19:06 (ZULU)

Please fly your AMERICAN FLAG! in support of our People.

TonyM <TAM308@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:25:53 (ZULU)

I was also under the impression that that plane was shot down but have also heard that that is not the case. Eye witnesses have reported that plane was flying erratically before it crashed. Sounds to me like the crew fought back if this is the case. Either way they were unable to kill even more people on the ground, God bless those innocent that have been killed and DAMM those that did it!!

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 21:43:28 (ZULU)

Question is how the terrorist whent through 3 airport security systems without a hitch?

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:04:55 (ZULU)

It has started!!!

God Bless America!

Out

TonyM <TAM308@aol.com>
FL, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:14:20 (ZULU)

Test.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:35:41 (ZULU)

To all of you across the pond:

I whish to express my most sincere sympathy for you all, especially those of you who have lost loved ones, regarding todays tragic events. I am sure I also speak on behalf of Marco, who is currently practicing in Germany.

I just can't believe what I'm seeing on TV. I've been on top of the twins, have seen just how many people work inside them and now they're gone. I have a hard time coming to terms with it.

This is clearly the work of madmen, well organised, but that doesn't make 'em less insane. If at all possible, I feel the same frustration and anger as you guys.

It's been said many times on this Roster: "Pity the man who has never known anything worth dying for." I guess PAYBACK might just be that thing...

Hang in there, bro's.

Stefan

Stefan <sniperhide@run.to>
Wanting some payback, anywhich way, just like the rest of you.... - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:40:15 (ZULU)

I post rarely here. My contribution to SC takes place behind the scenes, and frankly I like it that way. But I just can't hold my tongue today.

I shudder to think of what this attack could do to our freedom. It's only a matter of time before the usual suspects start calling for additional circumventions of our rights to privacy, property, and arms. God help us thwart the impending attacks of our own people.

God be with the thousands who undoubtedly perished today. Let us honor them by bringing swift, decisive, and devastating retribution to those responsible; and by holding tight to the very thing our enemies envy us most: liberty.

Don't forget, gentlemen: tragic as it seems right now many, many heroes will show themselves on this day.

Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 22:47:01 (ZULU)

Hello, my computer crashed and I finally got it back up and running. The problem is I was looking at getting a M24 and I have lost all contact info with the guy I was talking to. I sent inquiries to a couple guys that I found that made them, (was not TBA) and no replies.. The link is to the pictures I was sent by the builder, hopefully one of you guys will recognize the pics and be able to point me in the right direction. If one of you guys have a hot tip where I can get a M24 or a M40A1, let me know, I will be getting two of one or one of each. I have a FFL and have two eager customers. Thanks, Josh

Click on my name, thats the link.

JoshC <j46957@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 23:53:15 (ZULU)

I don't know if United Flt. 93 went down as a result of crew struggling to regain control, or because of military intervention. Nor do I care.

The cause was hijacking by cowardly bastards.

What I do care about is the fact that a friend of mine was on that flight.

Rest in Peace, Linda. May God welcome you.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 00:22:11 (ZULU)

The shit has definitely hit the fan.

Part of SORT Team (NC-1 DMAT) deployed at 19:00, my team held back for now. Will advise if I have to deploy. Can't say any more on sitrep at the present time.

THIS REALLY SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't be any more pissed off, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 00:25:40 (ZULU)

Bruce,

Please accept my sympathies.

I myself am waiting for word on a very close friend who works in the Pentagon.

Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 00:26:43 (ZULU)

JoshC, I don't recognize the pics but you might want to check out George Gardner at www.dennysguns.com under the precision rifles icon. He's got a great rep and answers e-mails and calls. I belive his wait is only about 3 months for a rifle too which isn't bad at all for a custom. His prices are pretty good also. Drop him a line. He's got my rifle now bedding it in my McMillan HTG stock. He actually called me when he got the rifle to let me know it made it to him alright. That's service.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 01:36:29 (ZULU)

In my several years in SE Asia, I never hated the VC or NVA. After today, I can honestly say I feel nothing but hatred for the arab world. We have no friends there, only enemies. May God forgive them, because I don't think I can.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:08:13 (ZULU)

To all who are called:

Keep it tight. Keep it smart. Do what you were trained to do.

God Bless You.

I myself am praying for the first time in a few years.

buk out.

buk <bukowski@ipa.net>
numb, Arkansas, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:25:03 (ZULU)

Bruce, my deepest sympathies...........

Guy's..............

I can't say this is/was a surprise........

I only hoped it would never be SO bad......

BUT, that said, it's now past, it's been done........

Nothing can change the events of today.....

But, as Gooch said, it is way PAST time for some serious pay back......

If, and when this bunch of maniacs are discovered...........WE as Americans should DEMAND that the Fed's GET the hellfire and brimstone box lunch ready..........

This can NO longer be "Strictly Limited", to ONLY the one's organizing the attacks........

The countries where they train, and are provided aid, and shelter need to be WIPED OUT.

Enemies understand only ONE thing, and that is STRENGTH........

Waiting around for several years to get a handful of thugs to trial is a joke.......please stand with me, by DEMANDING that our Government hit these pricks with everything we have got.............ASAP.

Sorry for the long diatribe, but this is a very tenuous, and devastating situation, and the GLOVES gotta' come off..........

My prayer's, to ALL you LEO's, and EMT's, and Firefighters who have lost countless brethern today in the service of our country........GOD BLESS them, and especially their families.

This also includes many of us, who will discover we have lost friends and loved ones, that we haven't yet a clue.........

May GOD bless us, in this one of our darkest hours........

Terry

Terry <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:35:38 (ZULU)

Two Shoes...

I'm with you brother.

We don't need no steeenkin' 10 year trial of 2 flunkies, like Lockerbee... these slobs don't care about that stuff, they're martyrs.

As a great philosopher (and now governor of Minnesota) once said... "It's Payback time" (Predator).

They will breed faster than we can try them in court... we need to break the nest.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Even the cats weap today, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 02:49:17 (ZULU)

The prayers of myself and my family go out to all those who lost thier lives today, may God greet them with open arms.

To all the framilies and friend of the victims may God be with you in your time of need.

My heart goes out to all of you.

There is a special place in my heart for all the EMS,Police,and firefighter who gave thier lives in the line of duty.

All that are working in that hell...You are true HEROS....... God be with you and grant you safety...

To those who will be given the job of finding these bastards and putting an end to thier terror......Be safe, be smart and most of all SHOOT TO KILL!!!!!!!

To all of you please give blood for those who need it.

Michael Odom <darkeru@aol.com>
Salem, Or, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 04:23:45 (ZULU)

First, my condolences to anyone who may have lost friends or family in the cowardly heartless attacks on our great country today.

Second, my thoughts and prayers are with my brother law enforcement officers that are involved in any way with the actions today as well as those brave fire and emergency medical personnel. .

For any of you who may be called to duty to go hunt this *hitbird rag head pieces of *hit's down. Happy Hunting!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make sure they get what they have coming to them, and i hope we keep the proverbial "gloves" off till we get things done right...

For some reason this afternoon when i got out of the house finally away from all the news...i just couldnt stop listening to a great cd i own by the great Lee Greenwood....and one of songs made popular during the Gulf war just had to keep playing again and again......GOD BLESS THE USA.....

One last thing..did anyone else wanna shoot their tv when they showed those palestinian dirt balls...celebrating this cowardly act?

Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
Pa, United States of America....GOD BLESS IT!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 04:46:09 (ZULU)

No medevacs...just ziplock bags. I want Afganistan incinerated, western Iraq incinerated, Baghdad gone, Kabul gone, Sudan incinerated, Kartoom gone, the Syrian Intelligence HQ gone, a ten mile buffer zone established between Israel and the rest of the worthless douchbag leeches in the Middle east where anything inside it is exterminated like roaches, the cities of Balbeek and Tehran incinerated and anyone and anything associated with terrorism within the last ten years gone. No questions asked. Four Trident D5s will do it... 40 nukes. Just to show we're pissed. After that, a Really New World Order, where it's my way or the highway. Fuck with me and you're history. I don't think they realize what they have done.

Former Intel Commander, USN

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 05:14:05 (ZULU)

Bill0294

Why waste money on bags?

Just let the scavengers pick their bones clean and the sun bleach them out.

jc (Former Army Intel)

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 05:31:26 (ZULU)

Bill, i second your motion...all those in favor say I

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 05:31:40 (ZULU)

TO my American brothers,

I've been recieving mail from some moron named Dan who seems to think my opinions of reprecussions are barbaric and question how I became a police Lt. I'm sitting here reading many other of your posts and find that I am not alone and thank u for that. Our country was hit hard today but we are far from being knocked out. Justice will come and it will be swift and merciless on the cowardly acts of the middle east. I leave with a quote from the Admiral of Japan in the movie Pearl Harbor..." I fear all we have done is awaking a sleeping giant"

This is the fear the Middle east and Afganistan should be feeling now.

Keep the Faith and God Bless all of the victims and their families.

Lt. Chris

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 06:46:40 (ZULU)

Christian F...

>"I've been recieving mail from some moron named Dan..."<

I don't know what you received from Dan, but I can assure you, he is no moron. He is one of the most educated people I know. You and he may have differences of opinion on this issue, but he was "smart" enough, and gentlemanly enough to keep it off the roster, and limit it to e-mail, instead of flaming you in public.

If you are having an e-mail disagreement with someone, keep it there, and don't drag it up to the roster and whine about it.

... and don't get your history from the movies.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Even the cats weap today, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 11:17:04 (ZULU)

Payback???

Just like the attack on Pearl Harbor, the immediadate emotional reaction was simple.

But in years after, we learned that there was a great deal of warning that we didn't pay head to... we knew that the Japanise were going to attack us somewhere, just not where.

We have been passivly letting the "suspects" do these kinds of attacks for years, with no resolve to stop it... we knew who was behind the Lockerbee attack, the the marine barracks, and all the rest of them, and we did little.

The "suspects" made an announcement last month that they would do something "REALLY BIG"... and the world paid no heed.

The real price we paid for the Viet Nam war, was we, as a nation, lost the heart to fight... we let 50 thugs drive away a navel ship in Haiti... and I won't waste my time talking about Mogadishu, Somalia.

It's time that we took the Isreali approach.

You hit us, we shoot you... you shoot us, we bomb you, 10 for one, or 1000 for one...

The world has band together (as in WW2) to bring this to an end, or we will be fighting these pigs in courts for centuries to come.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Even the cats weap today, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 11:33:34 (ZULU)

Killer-o-cats,

Amen! We know who they are, where they live, and what time they take a dump. Why they aren't already stuffed and hanging on a wall in the oval office is completely beyond me. I can just see GWB ordering it now, like a Gary Oldman scene in the movie "The Professional":

GWB: Bring me everyone.

JCOS: What do you mean, everyone?

GWB: EVERYONE!

Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 11:48:39 (ZULU)

Bruce, please accept my condolences as well, FWIW.

Hawgs,

We are at a for-real pivotal point in our history. If these scum want to wage war, then we should gladly oblige, and do it, all the way, with the anger, righteousness, and pure motivation that only we as Americans can do it. And that includes ANY and ALL governments and terrorist groups that have aided and abetted these acts through the years. In this I am sure we are all in agreement.

I pray we are up to the task. We need to teach a fatal and permanent lesson, and do it right now, or who knows what the next event will be.

Tears are being shed, and prayers said in our household for our Country and the victims of this attack, both innocents and rescuers. Many of our forums have lost members and friends of members.

May this becomes a turning point that helps America regain her power, liberty, sense of patriotism, and sense of purpose. Let this renewal become a lasting memorial to those who have perished. It is up to us, who have kept to the ideals of liberty and our beloved Country, to lead the way.

To those getting called up, God bless you, and Good Hunting.

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 12:23:04 (ZULU)

Bruce, my friend, I am so sorry for your loss of a friend. My prayers are with you.

Tony White, my friend, no words can describe how you must feel with such a great loss. I am with you in spirt, prayers and thoughts. One day at a time, you are a great man.

Terrorists, Eat Shit and Die! Hope you are gutt shot everyone.

Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 12:50:35 (ZULU)

Hi guys. I want to share something with all of you. I work at AOL. Yesterday we were evacuated due to a "viable threat of attack". Today we are back at work but with enhanced security. Now we are hearing that there is the possibility of further attacks and our campus is locked down much tighter.

I fear that this is not over and I ask that all of you send your prayers for those who have suffered in this tragedy.

We are at war gentlemen. Pray for victory.

Mike

BCR #226 <michaels226@hotmail.com>
Sterling , Virginia, United States - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 13:01:28 (ZULU)

In the aftermath of yesterdays events, all I will say is this:

Since these terrorists see fit to wear a bandage about their head, let us give them ample opportunity to use it!

Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
STUNNED and PISSED OFF, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 13:50:44 (ZULU)

These guys were tight. Thier funding, intel, training, skills pool and overall organization imply the intimate complicity of at least one nation. If Ben Laudin is involved, he is thier designated cut-out.

Ten years after Khadaffi blew up Pan Am 103 he coughed up two fall guys, and Clinton had State run cover for him. When they hit us, Clinton would order some lube-job missle strike, bite his lip and declare victory. Clinton would get his photo-op, the Terrs went home to play hero, and they would both be big winners. The top dogs in this op think that's the template we'll follow here.

I think that we are in more of a "Boil thier heads in saltwater, dip them in tar, and impale them on pikes" mode.

Let's see who is right.

My deepest respects to the passengers of the plane that went down in Pennsylvania. If there's a Valhalla, those guys earned thier place.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 14:34:40 (ZULU)

Thanks Mike. I appreciate the words. And thanks to all who sent well wishes, I couldn't respond to them all, for that I'm sorry. Don't think they went unnoticed.

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 15:07:02 (ZULU)

Don't know how many of you are familiar with Fred Reed's weekly column but this is worth a read concerning yesterday's events.

http://www.fredoneverything.net/NewYork.html

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 15:31:07 (ZULU)

Yesterday's attack is by far not over, the attacks will continue; maybe not today, but tomorrow or next year. The personal losses, alone, have been staggering. The financial losses, the stalling of certain markets, the destruction of dozens of companies, and the killing of thousands of professionals, will have an extreme impact on this nation.

Many people, including myself, lost someone or something in the attacks. But the losses won't stop there. The impact to our country has yet to really be felt. The shock has yet to set in.

We must immediately provide disincentive to these attacks such that no one, no fanatic, will ever dare try again. We were mercilessly attacked once, but Japan is now a friendly nation. We did it once; we can do it again, and we must, for our sake and our country's sake.

We have to stop snuggling with these terrorist nations that sell us their oil, and, instead, produce our own sources of oil. We have the oil; we have simply let the eco-terrorists stop us from drilling for it.

We have become a nation of sissies. We bow to every foreign and domestic terrorist. It is high time we stop being lazy and afraid, and stop leading our lives through fear and ignorance, and, instead, fight back. Our cowardice is killing us, literally.

For those that say we should negotiate, or condemn and hold court, please, by all means, go to these terrorist nations and do so. We’ll start digging your graves. Negotiations by a number of skilled and determined peacemakers have failed for over thirty years. These outlaw nations do not respect us, or fear us, and only wish and do us harm. The time for negotiations is over.

We cannot tolerate, any further, these attacks simply because we cannot hold a single country or persons responsible. Instead, we should hold all countries that contributed to these attacks responsible and wage war against them. They must be forced to surrender, unconditionally, and without mercy. We have the capability to bring these “outlaw nations” to their knees, and we must.

It is time to end the terror and fight back. It is time we stand our ground and stand up for America! It is time for something we have resisted to do in the name of peace, a peace we do not enjoy. It is time for war!

Hank <hank@vocallect.com>
Soggy Wheaties, Anger, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 16:34:38 (ZULU)

To Tony,Bruce and all those whom have lost loved ones in recent days- My prayers for comfort are with you.

To the rescue crews- God bless and be with you.

To those charged with finding and dealing with these people- God give you strength and guidence.

For now, all I can do is hang my head. I didn't know anyone involved in this but for two days I have been unable to think of anything other than the suffering of the victims and families. I hold my children close and struggle for answers to the question of how I can prepare them for the realities of our world.

Take care all.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 16:42:09 (ZULU)

Af GONE istan:

Those bags of shit harbored Bin Laden. We should not limit our objective to Bin Laden, but its his whole organization, which has no structured command and control like most people think. It has to be a broad paint and no rules.

And as far as for the Palestinians dancing and cheering in the street, thats what good intentions get you when you deal with ragheads.

Add an I and and E to shit, and you have an arab (shiite).

The Phoenix Project comes to mind.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 17:31:10 (ZULU)

I just got back from my Wednesday morning client in NY, and two of the gals were out... one lost a husband (a cop), and one lost a brother (a fire guy)...

I would love to see the Bush administration have the same resolve for America that we had on December 7th, 1941.

These pigs deserve to be buried face down in pig shit, in unmarked common pits, with a sign on it saying "GOD, Pass this place by... there's nothing here worth your time".

I know it's too early to know for sure who did it... and I hate to jump to conclusions, but I'll bet I can figure it out in about ten seconds.

On a somewhat better note, I just got a call from Lupita, and after the past few years of fighting with them... they have a bunch of NEW cams for the M3 scopes... I'm getting a whole box full next week to test... first will be new ones for the M3-LR, and with MK4-M3's to follow. I can't tell you more (and don't want to now)... but you'll hear it here first, when it's "oh-fish-ul".

If they don't have it right, I spoke to a very well known scope company (who I also can't name) that is very interested in making GOOD cams for both M3's. It's been a long hard battle!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 18:14:56 (ZULU)

Zealots can't be reasoned with, they only understand the rule of force. That said, we must apply this force with exacting precision.

As things stand today, I see no cure for fundamentalist terrorism (it's been around for a looong time), but we can damn well show them we're going to do more than arrest a handful of lackeys and pay for their incarceration.

My anger at those who supported and carried out this tragedy is only matched by my sorrow for those who've lost co-workers, friends, and loved ones. God be with you.

Steve "El Roto" G. <gopack@sprintmail.com>
Carrollton , TX, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 18:57:04 (ZULU)

I agree with the Israli approach. While I do think a few judiciously placed Cruise missles would be a good touch, I have long been an advocate of "counter-terrorizing". Although I know we would lose some brothers in the effort I think its time for ground forces to be used in some surgical strikes so we can drag out the bodies (payback for Somalia), stack'em up (pay back for Beruit) and then light'em off (payback for Desert one). You do us, we do you plus interest.

I think its important that we stick to military or terrorist targets, avoid colateral damage as much as we can and show these pig fuckers that they can't hide. What we need is a Ross Perot type to fund some independant actions with intell assests provided by the US or Israeli Gvt. By the way my email is posted here:-)

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 19:03:06 (ZULU)

We need to determine what group did this, hunt them down, behead them and leave their bodies in the street as carrion. If they're muslim, dip the sword in pig's blood before the beheading.

As for the country that harbored the vermin:

Their government buildings, military bases and industrial base should be bombed to rubble. If ANYONE protests we should remind them that this was an act of war against the sovereign soil and citizens of the United States and ask if they wish to ally themselves with the agressors because we still have unused ordnance we can send their way.

The price for harboring terrorists must be so great that nobody is willing to risk it.

God speed and good hunting.

TheOtherChris <titleman@stellar.net>
USofA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 19:08:38 (ZULU)

We are all aware of what has happened and many times it has been said to not hold a grudge against people that have the appearance of being Palistinean, Muslim, whatever. I have just heard on the radio, somebody called in and was talking about their neighbor who put out their Palistinean flag and a bowl of candy in apparent celebration of what has happened. This is an outrage in my opinion and if these people do not want any harm done to them, they better duck and cover! The American people will not stand for this very long I feel. I'm not making any threats, just pointing out that in this city, things can get violent in a hurry. To those that support what has happened, your in a world of SH##! If you don't like our beloved country and our freedoms, feel FREE to leave like you CAME!!!! You want to party, take your sorry butt back to where you came from and get bombed! This makes me want to join up again to kick some foreign $*#!

Former Army SGT

Nick Gebhardt

Nick Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 19:25:48 (ZULU)

Ladies and Gents,

Back after a busy time getting ready for our daughter's wedding. This is seriously depleting my 'toys' budget.

Groundhogs vs sniper rifles....In my Remmie 700 VS, 26" factory barrel, 28 oz factory trigger, I worked up a load of 22.2 grs of IMR SR4759 and Sierra 175 MK at 2.900 in Fed Match cases. Average of 10- 3 shot groups at 100 ygs .250". I don't have a chron but am guessing about 2,000 fps. Scope is a MK3 LR. Deadly on chucks. Hope this isn't a repeat but I've never seen any reduced loads for the 308 and thought you might like a low recoil, fairly quiet chuck load between matches.

This 700 VS is 1997 gun and was broken in benchrest style. Took half a day but she sure shoots. Scope bases are Baer w/20 MOA taper.

Question...Has anybody experienced long throats in their 700's? Mine goes 2.932" to the lands which is pretty long for a 308 or is it?

Brave Rifles - 3rd ACR

Scubashooter

scubashooter <jcolsen@netzero.net>
Richmond, VA, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 20:53:26 (ZULU)

Like the rest of the country, I suspect, I can't come up with words to describe how I'm feeling after yesterday. Sick, stunned and pissed just to start. One thing does come clearly though.

Vengeance, plain and simple.

Just another G.I. wishing I was still in, so I could get me some payback !

Aaron.

AB <bouser@arkansas.net>
Blytheville, Ar., UNITED States of America - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:01:36 (ZULU)

Two Shoes and 'Lito,

I couldn't agree more.

The dogs of war should have been unleashed long before now.

Hope we don't pussyfoot aroung this time.

The flag flies!!

Scubashooter

scubashooter <jcolsen@netzero.net>
Richmond, VA, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:09:59 (ZULU)

Scuba Dude...

For a .308 Rem 700... 2.932" is considered short.

Most run around 3.15"

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:21:39 (ZULU)

So we're agreed. Get THE RIGHT GUYS and make examples of them that would make a Mongol calvryman dump his guts. While were at it, it's time to settle up on The Cole, The Embassies, Pan Am 103, The Marine barracks, etc.

Key point: RIGHT GUYS.

This "Kill 'em all," childishness makes more enemies than it kills.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14320-2001Sep11.html

Dan

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 21:58:22 (ZULU)

I believe some of the "Right Guys" are in federal prison right now........Build a gallows in front of the site and start there....Does that suit the author of the "final post"???????????

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 22:49:06 (ZULU)

It appears that for now, all the disaster and responder personnel are put in place with backups for the next week or so. Most of the work is going to be body recovery and heavy resque by the USAR teams. Actually there are more people than they know what to do with now in NY. The northern states have a lot more man-power to draw from than we do in other places.

The Hazmat Team (NMRT) that I am on has pretty much stood down but we are still on advisory. We are not sure if the second Team DMAT will be required.

Unless things change between now and Friday, I'm going ahead with vacation plans that I made a year ago (friends wedding) since they are already paid for. I really hate to take vacation in light of the recent happenings, but I will be carrying all the gear I would need to deploy since I won't be over 4 hours from home. For sure, I will still not be able to rest.

There may never be a 'good' time for vacation anymore. I feel that we have only seen the tip of the iceburg.

If any of you live around VA Beach and want to have a beer Saturday, send me an email.

Sad and worn out Bolt, out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 22:51:36 (ZULU)

Kissinger should be read with care:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14275-2001Sep11.html

Dan

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 22:53:03 (ZULU)

Let the Lady of New York once again declare her sympathy for those who danced in the streets yesterday so that all will remember.......and my note WAS serious......

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 23:07:39 (ZULU)

Is a muzzle break on a .223 worthwhile

I own a Rem 700 vssf in 223. With a normal 55 grain load, I have a hard time seeing where the bullet hits when the scope is above 8 power. I would prefer to be able to use the scope around 15 power or so, but I simply cannot hold the gun still due to the small recoil.

From my understanding, a brake might work well on a 223 because the muzzle blast is fairly strong. I am an avid varmint hunter and want to be able to see what and where I am hitting all of the time.

Is it worth the expense or not?

I am not conserned about noise because I always wear hearing protection with this rifle.

I was considering the Holland quick discharge brake. Please let me know of your opinion on this brake. Does the blast from this brake actually blow on the shooter?

Badon <badon232@hotmail.com>
Boise, ID, usa - Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 23:37:40 (ZULU)

It looks like this won't go to the Ivy League pencil necks at State and Justice who'll just issue strongly worded statements and subpoenas.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-200191241929.htm

Dan

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:03:46 (ZULU)

Thank all of you for your kind expressions of sympathy regarding the murder of my friend.

Let us all take our grief and turn it into resolve that those responsible will be removed from the earth. Not revenge, just protection for those remaining.

Fox News reports that Arafat has donated his blood for US victims.

I certainly hope that this does not leave him too weak to dance in the streets.

To all who were involved in these shameful and sinful acts I say, "Dance while you can."

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:07:25 (ZULU)

HOG'S,

My condolences to all affected, both directly and indirectly. This senseless situation should result in only one response. Annihilation of all terrorists, and their harbourers.

I have heard of the "glass houses" comments, but would sure like to see a "glass country" here real quick.

CDC, welcome back.

Bruce Robinson, my condolences.

"release the hounds"

On another side note, my wife is now at 41 weeks, one day. We are expecting her to have our child at any moment.... hopefully, she will hang on till tomorrow, which is my birthday... ;)))

'Lito, theotherChris, Gooch, etc. i couldn't agree with you more.

"and yes, bring me EEVVRRRYYYOOOOONNNNNNNEEEE"

out.

Sean Thomas <nailer@mackbc.com>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:10:26 (ZULU)

Let Arafat donate the blood of those he has protected.......and those who have danced....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:13:03 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:14:27 (ZULU)

My sinsere condolanses to the families of the victims and my sympathy

for this great nation for this tragedy.

Althougth i would like to see the murderes bombed back to stone age

i dont think we should let emotion overtake reason.If by saying -israely aproach- you mean dont give them intel and infiltrate mosad

i agree.What are the chanses they new and did not say anything?They done that before.After all who will get the most out of this tragedy?

(please dont call me antisemite.I dont like them but idont hate them either).

I hope they will found them all.

Jim

Jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
marathon, fl, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:18:02 (ZULU)

Marathon Jim...

you failed this one too... the Isreali method has nothing to do with being Jewish, or giving anyone intel... it is to make the price of being a terrorist SO HIGH, that it isn't worth it... just the opposite of the clinton administration.

You kill an Isreali solder, the Isrealis will kill ten of your's.

You blow up an Isreali school bus, they will blow up 10 of yours.

You blow up an Isreali house, they shell an entire neighborhood with 155mm. They make the price of this shit very high... not like clinton, who simply got international court orders telling the terrorists to "Stop that, and be nice!"

DR. SHEHU IBRAHIM...

This is another idiot that has a scheme to send $18,000,000 to you, just give him your bank account #... he's using the roster for a mailing list... HA!

Fire dude-ski...

corn cob is OK... but make sure the polish you use with it, has no abrasives. Dillon Blue Stuff is good... Iosso polish has abrasives in it, and the cases will have to be washed after polishing.

Mark smith...

You're right on. Let the "Dancers of Palestine" donate blood for the cause.

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 00:42:05 (ZULU)

Steel Floorplates for M700?

Would anyone care to comment on the Dakota or Williams floorplates offered by Brownell's for around $240? I don't want to have to have the new one inletted, and these seem to be the available drop-in models. Are there any better ones out there for similar money? The original aluminum one is starting to feel a little bit mushy when I torque it in. Is there anything wrong with treating the steel floorplate with spray-primer and green Krylon (verses some snazzy baked-on goo)?

I think I saw a D.D. Ross (?) steel floorplate in George Gardner's shop (on a rifle), but don't know where to get one (or what it costs). Doesn't seem to be carried by Brownell's. I'm also not sure whether it requires re-inletting, to fit.

Thanks in advance for any advice or comments on or off-line.

- Earl <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
KC, MO, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 01:03:58 (ZULU)

Greetings. Many things to post so I'll keep 'em short.

First and foremost: Heartfelt condolences and sympathies to all involved one way or another. To our emergency service's and volunteers in the recovery, our sincerest gratitude.

For us whom are the "last resort of diplomacy", when and if we get the call, I sure hope we are allowed to do more than just give some brat a spanking. We need to be able to strike and strike hard, but we must have clear objectives and full use of all resources to meet those goals. While "Glass parking lots" make good slogans, we must remember that we are Americans, and we are a make-up of all the peoples of the world. We cannot let prejudices prevail here, our response must be directed towords those responsible, not everyone of X-persuasion, as some will doubtless be our allies, too.

On to some other things: Pat (MrBullit): For Krieger try swapping around your "I" and "E". It's www.kriegerbarrels.com Tried contacting you off line but have just moved and still getting used to all of the new email accounts, and my message didn't make it to you.

Pet Licoln (I think), If you were the one who posted about using short bbled rifles and pistols for chasing pigs through the bush, you'll get a kick out of this. While I was stationed in Ge. I hunted. One of the guys I hunted with was a little, well, "off". He used to go after the pigs with a mini-mag flashlight in one hand and a Colt's Woodsman .22lr in the other! Maybe he saw too many Vietnam movies about "tunnel rats".

Glad to be back,

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 01:06:02 (ZULU)

Anybody heard from Jim Mitchell?????????????????

We offer our Hope and prayers for the victims, survivors and families of these horrific attacks.

To the Scumballs who did it, we gonna micro fry yo asses, yo mammy, and yo kinfolk too. BANK ON IT!!!!!

No where to run,

No where to hide baby!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 01:56:03 (ZULU)

I have not posted for awhile. However I have been lurking. I do have a question for you guys. I am looking into buying a 40 S/W I have looked at the Smith Tactical pieces and the SW99 which is the one that was jointly made with Walther. I was wondering if any of you have any trigger time in with either gun. And what you think of them. Any info would be appritiated.

Lito'

Its been a long time scince we have chatted. I have been lurking in the shadows. I dont know if you remember but we got into a long debate on the mouse guns accuricy compared to the bolt guns. Anyway I hope you have been well. And I wonder if you still get into trouble with the sheepies!

Eric W.

Eric W. <Alpine@chartermi.net>
Mich, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:31:07 (ZULU)

lito

Thank God i dont have dark skin and a big mustashe.

I knew that israelis never care about colateral damage and now you want to folow their footsteps.Do you realy think you will still have the moral high ground?If the price is so high how come there still suisade bombers?Terorism has many faces..so does propaganda.

I understand your outrage but what you proposing is no diferent what wermaht did in my country during ocupacion!And dont forget NATO bombed the Serbs for something like that!

I hope our disagreament dont create any bad blood

Jim

Jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
marathon, fl, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:39:27 (ZULU)

Cat Assasin,

I use the Midway polish and I don't believe it has any abbrasives but I'll check. Does anyone know off the top of their head if it does or not?

I also wanted to say also that I tried my 300WM today for the first time since using the David Tubb Final Finish and it does work. My velocities went up 60FPS with the same loads from before the treatment! It was also starting to flatten primers but today not even a hint so pressures must be down too. Also it is a joy to clean and didn't even foul up much. It used to be like I copper plated it after 20 rounds. Check it out at www.zediker.com It was definately worth the $35 delivered.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:51:43 (ZULU)

Concerning "colateral damage".....Responsibility for loss of innocent sheep, among whom dwell wolves, lies with the wolves, not with the shepherds of neighboring flocks who avenge the murder of their own flock.....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 02:54:13 (ZULU)

To All:

My condolences and prayers to those who must bear the agony and despair of loss.

I received a message from a prophetic ministry, noting that the attack occurred on 9/11. Looking in Revelations, the Biblical book of disclosure, Chapter 9, verse 11.

"And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon (destruction), but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (destroyer)

Verse 12: "One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things."

The guy had the strong impression that more attacks are forthcoming....who knows when. I do know God desires His people to pray, and I am thankful many posting on this site do so.

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:15:14 (ZULU)

Earl,

Check out the Badger steel floorplate.I think it is the best out there. It might be overkill, but it is very well made and I feel it is worth it. The Badger folks are nice people as well!! Give George a call, he can set you up.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:18:56 (ZULU)

Well Gents,

Its T minus 7 hours before myself and a dozen other officers drive from Philly to New York or "ground zero" to help all the thousands of others in the horror that has been unfolded. I requested to my superiors today at the Philadelphia Police Depo that we would like to be sent up to do anything possible since things in Philly have been quiet. We'll be leaving tomorrow at 6:00 am and we will remain there for 24 to 72 hrs depending upon what happens. Earlier on I recieved mail from a man named Dan who bashed me for my post I left yesterday after the events of TWC bombings calling me an "idiot" and a "donut eater". I hope he reads this message to know that it is the "donut eaters" who are risking their lives to save others along with the brave firemen. We are a strong backbone in this country and if your a real man I ask you to bring those comments to New York tomorrow and shout them loud! This may not be right to post a message bringing personal concerns here but I'm not picking a fight nor do I want a fight, but DO NOT insult those and make a fool of yourself by doing so. If you do not agree withomor opinion fine, I'm open for arguement but do not curse and insult me, this is America a land where free speech is allowed and it will remain this way no thanks to cowards like you.

Keep the Faith, and God bless the victims and their loved ones

Lt.Chris

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:23:23 (ZULU)

It looks like Sadaam provided much necessary support. We'll know soon.

Collateral damage is a given. It's sad.

Lt Chris: Good luck and God bless.

Dan

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:27:54 (ZULU)

I need some advice on the Tasco's SS10x42M Super Sniper Scope. ..does anyone have any credible info on this scope. Likes ..dislikes ..??.i have read the in review section and it seems like a good scope?? am saving money for the USO ST-10 + a few options..just need something that will do for now.

andrei <doroftei@yahoo.com>
DFW, Texas, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:35:58 (ZULU)

My condolences to all who have lost loved ones.

+++++

I've been thinking hard about this, as have we all.

These guys are willing to die, so killing the culprits won't help, another will step forward and take their place. And, there's really not any way to prevent a terrorist attack once they've decided to attack... yeah, we can try, and do okay at it, but you're still open to a hard left.

So, the only way to stop it is to make it so that they don't want to do it. How? I can think of only one way....

Obliterate their cities.

They don't care to die, but if they know that if they pull some shenanigan, then their wifes, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, neighbors, buddies, friends, churches (or mosques), neighborhoods - EVERYTHING that is part of their life - will no longer exist. Then, and ONLY then, will they consider that they shouldn't do it.

Retalitory, yes. Extreme, yes. Politically correct, hell no.

But it would work.

As soon as we have a clue what town bin Laden and his cell's chiefs are at, we ought to hit that town with a small tactical nuclear warhead. If we find evidence that Iraq's Hussein really did support this event, then Baghdad gets one too. And the camels they rode in on!

Collateral damage, yes, almost monumental. Is it a form of terrorism? Yes, it is... it IS fighting fire with fire. Reactively terrorize them such that they won't try it. Note, it IS different from their proactively terrorizing other societies just because they don't like our way of life.

Do I blame Arabs, no. Do I blame followers of Islam, no. I don't even blame most of the citizens of the countries that are known to support such activities. I blame the terrorists, and think that we shouldust cifically hit them hard. Surgically. But on a community scale.

Only then, will they hesitate.

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

Semper Fi, God Bless.

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:38:11 (ZULU)

Marathon Jim...

>"Thank God i dont have dark skin and a big mustashe."<

This is NOT about race or religion... many Isrealis have dark skin, and big mustashs... this is about fighting terrorists. In the world of terrorists, there are no uniforms, and no ID's.

>"I knew that israelis never care about colateral damage and now you want to follow their footsteps."<

When children carry satchel bombs into your markets, then children are not "colateral" they are solders in "spy" uniforms. If you play "fair" in a war of terrorism, you will loose! If the Isrealis had waited to shoot only at uniformed Palistinians, there would not be an Isreal... If we wait to shoot uniformed terrorists in this country, the Trade Center will just be the begining... we will be bombed and burned to the ground.

>"If the price is so high how come there still suicide bombers?"<

Because they are religious fanitics, and in their mind, dying for Alla, gets them a front seat with God. If Isreal hadn't had the policy they have, they would have been pushed into the sea 45 years ago.

Please don't continue this thread here... you don't understand the issues involved, and the needs of a country to defend itself against an invisible enemy. If you play fair, you will die.

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:50:31 (ZULU)

Im sorry. But I think its time for Berlin or Japan all over again. I mean I think its time to take it right to the inside of their house. I mean completely conquered and Old Glory flying over their capital building. Then find politically favorable peopley.&ntheir own countries to prop up. And then, we can build economical and politically favorable relations again. Look at what we have/have not done with iraq. How long do we think we can just keep bombing them & not expect these kinds of things to eventually happen. Now are freedom is going to suffer. Sound off if you disagree/or agree.

Also, Kmart and oshmans reporting to pull guns off their shelves...

I felt this post would be germane in light of the circumstances.

Texas National Guard F-16's Flying over my house all Night!!!

Hearty Thanks.. :)

JerryC

JerryC <Jngcrs@swbell.net>
houston, Texas, God Bless America - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 03:57:13 (ZULU)

Lito'.........

Thanks...........you are right on.

If your arse is against the damn wall 24/7/365 1/2 days a year....you do what you gotta'.........

Collateral............you want a definition of Collateral?????

NYTC.............there's your REAL damn Collateral!!!!.

You got appprox 20/30K, TOTALLY innocent dead Americans........all they did was go to work.......

Don't even breathe the damn word...........

Leslie, as much as I hate to.........I agree...........time to make glass.

The 800# Gorilla, has got to get ON with the show, or we are DEAD meat.........

Two Fumin' Shoes

Terry <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 04:07:51 (ZULU)

From another board.... very well said....

++++++

What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.

Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.

Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.

IN PAIN

Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and,

probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.

I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.

In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.

THE STEEL IN US

You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold.

As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.

++++++

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war....

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 04:09:14 (ZULU)

Hi ya'll

Back to work after a couple of days off. Computer at home on the fritz so I can't check email or roster from home. Spent the past couple days staring at the TV in shock.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all who lost friends and loved ones at the WTC and the Pentagon.

A special thank you to the members of the NYPD and FDNY as well as all other volunteers who are working feverishly and against all hope to try and find survivors. And a special prayer for the officers and firemen who lost their lives trying to save the lives of others.

To those of you in the armed services, THANK YOU for being there, it is you who will be carrying the fight to these heartless bastards, may God be with you all. Watch your six!

lito' You are absolutely right! This country has been too liberal and too lax for too long. The signs have been there but ignored for whatever reason. These guys do not fight fair and we cannot prevail against this threat if we fight fair. I hope that our leaders recognize this, find the perpetrators quickly and then make their world a living hell.

Tony: very sorry to hear of your loss, my prayers are with you as well.

Lt. Rob Opp

Police Dept.

Jamestown ND USA

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 05:26:33 (ZULU)

Lt Chris: You put it online so I will too.

Lt C: "before is sleep tonight, and head out tomorrow to see sights that are unimaginable, I call a truce to the verbal bashing. You are not the enemy and sometimes my emotions get the best of me, especially when your watching TV and fighting back the tears after seeing people plummet 90+ stories to their death and knowing now that I'm going in there to find them."

CDC': 7,000 dead at 150 lbs per equals about 100,000 lbs of horror. Maybe it's 15,000 dead and 200,000 pounds.

Be strong.

"For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an'

'Tommy, wait outside';

But it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the

trooper's on the tide,

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the

troopship's on the tide,

O it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the

trooper's on the tide."

Kipling

They wanted us to feel fear, but we don't feel fear. Americans don't see themselves as victims. Americans are children who choose what we want and then we get it. Now we want the people who did this burned alive and buried in pig shit, and so it will be.

Sadaam angle:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html

If this is right, big time state sponsorship and bin Ladin is small potatos:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/opinion/13SAFI.html

More on that. bin Ladin looks like a stooge and a cut out. It's Sadaam:

http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001120

For the country that thinks it has no heroes, consider Thomas, Jeremy and thier cohort. May God love them and keep them 'till they are rejoined with thier loved ones. These were Men:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/opinion/13SAFI.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 05:41:07 (ZULU)

I have lurked here for a long time, but have never posted anything here before. I can't watch the news any more. I lost it today - so I thought writing a post here among like-minded brothers might help me vent a little bit.

A friend of mine who works at the Pentagon is still unaccounted for. I keep asking myself and my God - what makes madmen do the unthinkable to innocent people?

A few thoughts: To truly conquer an enemy, we must study them closely first.

There are some things people fear worse than death - just ask a Holocaust Survivor. I have older relatives still living who bear tattoos they received in 1943 while in Nazi concentration camps. They live in Israel now. They have spoken to me privately of unspeakable horrors they witnessed personally.

Sun Tzu says: "Know your enemy."

Here are a few URLS (with links) for studying:

http://www.moqawama.org/page2/main.htm

http://www.islam101.com/

http://msanews.mynet.net/gateway/hamas/

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/hamas/

I believe it is time for us to apply some very serious Psy Ops.

If there are Arabic speaking Americans who wish to do something good for our country - now would be a good time to offer ymas/elves into service to redeem the diginity others have stolen from you.

God's blessings to all those who are selflessly helping our country during this terrible time. Please know that you are on many people's prayer lists.

Lastly, the Wrath is coming - like a thief in the night...

"The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle, swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity the young. They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. They will lay seige to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

- Deuteronomy 28:49-52

Fred <ohc1@pacbell.net>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 06:43:23 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Its now about 4:00 in the morning in philadelphia, I just got the call from my captain and we are leaving a couple of hours before schedule. I am on my way to hell to help the countless many brave souls who have been digging like dogs on 14th street. I may be jumping the gun here but I'm going into what feels and looks like another world and I hope and pray that me, my fellow 13 officers and all the others digging for our fellow Americans come out I one piece. I don't know what to expect in th e80 miles north of me except the worse and hope we can pull out some more survivors. I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little scared, but I am in all seriousness when I say that I have NEVER, EVER have been so proud to be an American. I sometimes takes to worst to bring out the best and

consider myself lucky to be soon working with the bravest and finest men God has ever created.

"KEEP THE FAITH"

God Bless us all and those who have departed for their deaths will soon be avenged.

Proudly,

Lt. Chris

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 07:51:59 (ZULU)

Lt. Chris,

Our prayers are with you and all the others. Good luck.

Semper Fi.

Alan

Alan Wong <usmc308@hotmail.com>
S.F., CA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 09:34:42 (ZULU)

Sorry boys and girls but I can’t sit back and read some of this without comment.

Firstly, my deepest condolences to all who have lost friends and family in these attacks.

I can understand your anger but your nation’s response must be a measured one. Some of you need to step back, take a few deep breaths and sit on your hands until the red mist lifts. By all means take out those responsible BUT ONLY THOSE RESPONSIBLE ( and I include any government who funded or supported these people). There must be every effort made to have ZERO collateral damage The vast majority of people in the countries these terrorists are from or are sheltering in will be completely innocent and just as shocked as the rest of us at what has happened. If you start killing them through sloppy or indiscriminate bombing then you will just recruit thousands of willing soldiers for the opposition, not beat them into submission. The Israeli approach doesn’t work it just makes people more determined to fight. (take your slogan ‘Live free or die’ as an example!) These terrorists have murdered thousands of innocent people. Doing the same thing to their countries will be just as much a crime. You can only do what you need to do by putting people on the ground. Select your targets go in hard, get the job done and get the hell out. Then offer as much aid to those countries as you can afford. Hearts and minds. (And yes, you need to review your foreign policy! - Remember you import 70% of your oil.) That’s my 2 cents I grew up in N. Ireland. I know how it works and I know there is no easy solution. There may never be a solution but I know you need a carrot as well as a stick to make any progress.

Talk of tactical nukes will make a lot, if not all, of your allies walk away.

To those going into harms way, good luck and may your God go with you.

Flame away.

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:01:32 (ZULU)

I posted this over at The Firing Line and Tshoes thought I should post it here so everyone here can see. If you have a factory barrel and reload I highly recommend it. I know some don't like fire lapping and I'm not sure if this would even be considered fire lapping in the old sense. Here's the post:

Well I tried the product made by shooting champion David Tubb called Final Finish. It is made for people that reload and want to smooth out their bores for better velocities, less fouling easier cleaning and better accuracy. It's something like a fire lapping but a little different. You get 75 bullets, 50 for .338 and larger, of 5 different levels of courseness which are coated almost like a moly coat. You will only shoot 50 the first time you do this treatment on a factory bore, less on a custom barrel(there are special instructions for these). The others you save for the future when your barrel needs a little touch up like when your throat is getting a little long. You load the rounds and shoot from the coursest to the finest coated rounds cleaning between each of the 10 round strings. Some might say this sounds like a barrel break in thing and to a point it is but you can do this on any rifle and believe me the benefits are much greater than just a break in. I used it on my factory Remington 700P 300WM that fouled like no other rifle I've owned. It was also a bear to clean. I had already done some load testing so I had some velocities from the chrono to check the new velocities against.

They say that it will give you greater velocities, less fouling, easier cleaning and better accuracy. It does! My velocities with the same loads went up 60FPS! My primers were just starting to flatten with this load before the treatment but after there wasn't a hint of pressure signs so the pressure must have dropped also from the bore being smoother. Also noted was that there was barely any fouling to be had and the cleaning took no time at all. Accuracy on the other hand was just a hair better but with the other benefits that's fine with me. If you are interested and want to read some more go to www.zediker.com This is where I bought mine from but there are other places that sell it. For about $35 delivered it was well worth it especially on a factory barrel. If you load your own give it a try. You won't be sorry.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:27:19 (ZULU)

CDC

Welcome back! The hiatus was much too long.

Semper Fi all!!!!!

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:35:13 (ZULU)

Dougie............

Thanks for your .02's.............several years ago, I would have agreed.

Unfortunately, measured responses, only have gotten us into this mess.

It, in my humble opinion is time to show these folks some glow in the dark scenes.

Even if it is just ONE major explosion 50 miles away from a major city..........the Fear of Allah, must be brought to bear......

We will never stop the splinter groups, and small cells.

Before this is said and done, I feel we will find Saddam Insane responsible.....

Baghdad, or wherever HE may be, needs to be Sodom & Gomorrahized........

Only when the price becomes totally untenable will the supporters of these attrocities take stock........

The gloves have got to come off.......

Let's not forget, we are talking MULTIPLE thousands of INNOCENT civilians...........Americans, American soil, worst disaster in our 200 year plus history...........and like I stated earlier........"All they were doing, was going to work".

I live by, or try to.......Biblical principles.

BUT, that said, there is a time for JUST WAR...........we are THERE NOW.

The retribution must be SO painful, that the deterent will be first and foremost on their minds.......indelibly & forever etched....

We cannot allow ONE more incedent of this nature..........not ONE.

To do so, is INVITING more of the same...............

Terry

Terry <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 12:55:55 (ZULU)

HOGs, very few have said I was slow to react to a threat but from my point of view is, now is not the time to act swiftly and in just a general direction. We need to be certain who participated in these acts of war. Dont take this as a dont do anything. It is a do it right approach.

My deep down belief is that we do this the way the Israels did after the Olympic Games Terrorist attack. Hunt down and kill everyone that had anything to do with the acts, before, during or after. I mean everyone. If a government was involved we take out all members that were part of it. I do not think we should carpetbomb/nuke or anything else a whole people because they do not think the way we do. If we did that we would be at the same moral level as the ones that did this against us.

If you look to the worlds past you will see where some wars ended with former enemies as friends and some as mortal enemies. We have a chance to do this right and still hold our heads up high. I dont think I want to talk about how we bombed young kids and non combatants.

Just my feelings

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:17:26 (ZULU)

To the SC council:

Please find and contact the author of the text posted by Leslie that was taken from another board. Please get permission to post this piece on this site. This is a very inspirational, well thought out and well written piece that should be posted for all to read.

Condolences again to all affected, both directly and indirectly, by this tragedy.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:32:08 (ZULU)

Several of the original World Trade bombers are incarcerated at the Federal Facility here. Quiet so far. On standby.

Still no word from NYC on my friends with NYPD/ATF. Their office was in the World Trade.

A friend with Pittsburgh SWAT told me there was a large prison riot in Penn. of Muslims when they heard of the bombing (that one's easy to fix).

K-Mart took all their guns off the shelves here. Can't even buy dove loads for your shotgun.

They say Wal-Mart sold 115,000 US flags yesterday. Glad to see it.

One of our officer's brother is FDNY. He was said to be missing at first but is okay and working at the site. My Major's godmother worked for Morgan Stanley is it ? She died at the scene. His wife's uncle was killed at the Pentagon.

I hope all of YOU, MY BROTHERS, are well.

Remember the Alamo, Brian

PS: Saw a convenience store owner walking down the street yesterday. Muslim looking fellow. Had on a shirt with BIG red, white and blue letters "I LOVE THE USA". Smart move, dude.

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:51:53 (ZULU)

Dougie...

I'm with "Shoes".

If the enemy wears the same uniform as the colaterals... and lives inside the comunities, and intermixed with the colaterals... there is NO difference. Tell me just who was dancing in the streets in Palistine yesterday... terrorists, or colaterals??

When an entire nation wants your distruction, how do you sort them out.

We had this problem in Viet Nam, and got our collective tails kicked... we couldn't tell the good guys from the bad guys. This is NOT like the Second World war, where the opponents wore uniforms, and shot at each other.

I seriously doubt if the general public of Afganistan, Liberia, Saudi, Palistine, Iraq, Iran, and a few others were "shocked" at the attack... au contrair mes'ami, they rejoiced in the streets at our loses.

For the first time in our history, we are involved in a religious war, and we know from history, that they can go of forever... hundreds or thousands of years. If this is not brought to a conclusion soon, and new directions taken about our immigration policies and foreign policies, we will be living like the Irish in a few years, and freedom as we know it, will be history.

If we had finished it in Iraq, I don't think we wouldn't be in this position... we need to finish it now.

I'm not saying that everything our foreign policy has gotten us into was right... when clinton bombed Afganistan to cover his media problems, the world community should have jumped on him, and protested it, and we should have impeached him for attacking a sovereign nation without cause... but he was the darling of Europe, and got a free pass by the media in this country.

That not withstanding, we still have to deal with Tuesday, and the source of the problem is a large group of people that are religiously driven to our distruction.

When that problem is solved, then we can re-evaluate out foreign policy, and weither we want to be involved in Europe's and the mideast's problems...

I personally think we should be out of the whole friggin mess... let The Irish, the Bosnians, and the rest go to hell... shore up and defend our true allies, and dump the UN (which hasen't prevented a single war, national genocide, or act of terrorism, since it was formed, but wants control over our national parks and our resources)...

Paul... you do not need permission to post Leslie's stuff, if it is not copyrighted.

This is my last on this... I need a break for a few days. (I think!)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 13:54:25 (ZULU)

After watching this tragedy unfold the past couple of days and reading the comments here I wanted to vent and get my two cents worth in. Don't take it personal if I disagree with you.

I agree with many of you the at we need to find out exactly who did this, not for justification, but to establish the facts for history. I also don't think we should start carpet bombing parts of the world and killing children. Quite frankly that is a bit simple minded. Just like in Vietnam the enemy has so little regard for their own children that they use them as shields and suicide bombers, to take advantage of the natural love Americans have for kids. Now I ask, who is the true evil that is responsible for kids being killed?

What we should do is to attack those terroist who we already know about and are the easiest to get to. This is a war, and in war you attack all your enemy and kill them all. Killing them all is the only way to stop them. If terrorism is the enemy, then anyone who is a terrorist against the USA is the enemy, and whether they were directly involved in the attacks or not is unimportant. They are a target and the enemy and it is time to take the war to them!!!!

We hit them hard and soon and often, until they are destroyed. We make it so difficult for their support structure to tolerate them that either attitudes change or they are no more. We don't stop when they start whining. We prosecute the war against all terrorist until they are all gone!! If they are captured or surrender, then you try them before they are hung. If they choose to hide behind women and children then they are responsible for their deaths, not us. America has never sought to kill non-combatants, but when the Gertmans were hold up in a building, the fact that French or German civilians were in it was not a factor. Our GI's did the job and killed the Enemy. I really don't care if the terrorist are Palestinians, Afgans, Iranian, Iraqis, Croates, Serbs, or whomever. If we know they are terrorist then lets get to it, and after laying it to waste leave it, don't rebuild it. And don't let anyone else rebuild it either.

Then there are these Palestinians in Israel. Dancing in the streets and celebrating the attack. When was the last time Americans danced in the streets when the Israeli's fought back? You would think that Americans do nothing but want to kill Islamic Arabs. Someone posted that a neighbor flew the Palestinian Flag and set out a bowl of candy. Talk about the nerve of these people. Here we tolerate it, if the situation was reversed, the house would be firebombed and the people killed. Now tell me who is the civilized society? These same people even kill their own childeren if it furthers their cause. I am thinking of the boy in Gaza hiding with his father that was shot by an AK 47 in the back a few months ago and the PLO blames Israeli soldiers for killing kids.

We have sat by too long being too fat and sassy thinking everyone is as cheritible as we are and differences can be worked out, and 10,000 people and maybe more are dead because of it. There are children without parents, and husbands and wives and sons and daughters gone forever. You cannot make peace and live with people who don't want peace. This is a defining moment for the US and the civilized world, and how we deal with it will be the world our children and grandchildren inherit.

May God Bless Us All

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:27:36 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs..

Been home sick with the flu and watched most of the horror on tv. Its just unbelievable!!

Bruce..

So sorry to hear about your friend, my thoughts and prayers are with you.

As far as what we need to do about this thing, I don't think there is and easy answer. I know our world has changed as we know it and it will never be the same.

We need to understand that when we get into fighting terrorist we need to take the gloves off and forget about the rules of war. When dealing with these people there is only one rule: There aren't any!!

We also need to understand that were dealing with a culture that has been bread to hate us from the day they were born and yes if we kill some of them we will make more hatred and more recruits for their cause.

The only way to stop a war is to make it to costly to continue. In this type of a war there "Will" be collateral damage. I don't remember who said it, but in world war two, someone was asked about bombing cities and killing thousands of civilians and what good could this possibly do in helping to stop the war. His reply was "If your a soldier, up on the front line, you will fight and die for your country and your beliefs because your protecting your family and all that you love and hold true. But if thats taken away or you risk loosing all that is dear to you and there is nothing left you will soon loose the will to fight or see that the cost is to high. That is what stops wars"!!!

I always thought about that statement and what it really ment and maybe he is right. Like 'lito says, you have to make it to costly to continue a war with us. Maybe he's willing to die for the cause but by doing so is he ready to codem all else that he holds dear???

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:30:10 (ZULU)

'lito

I was just trying to show some manners and consideration.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:35:39 (ZULU)

We will inflict collateral damage. We will take significant casualties. Both should be minimized but fretting about brute facts is pointless.

http://www.nationalreview.com/daily/nr091201.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:41:58 (ZULU)

There is nothing like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, I agree with Mike about taking out all involved as the Israeli's did, but I have seen this time and time again in Northern Ireland, you know damn well who the terrorist's are , but you aren't doing anything to them unless you catch them red handed, by then its to late,they laugh in your face and you can do nothing about it. They need taking out before hand, prevention is always better than cure, so lets get on with it and take out all known terrorist organisations, all their leaders, members and supporters, lets take out all the governments who provide sanctuaries for these rats, those who provide funding, training and a base for operations. I don't care who they are or where they come from be it ETA in Spain, IRA INLA or UVF in Northern Ireland, RAF in Germany,Gadaffi's mad men, Saddams hench men or any of these Mad Mulla's form Goatfuckistan, or a whole host of other terror organisations, Kill them, stamp them out, because one day now , sooner or later they will all kill innocent civilians again. Now is the time to act, its late, but better than never.

And let us start with the pigs who did NY and DC.

I would imagine that in my country, England, that there are many Liberals and Socialists, tree hugging hippies who would rather look the other way and not have our Country involved,Tony Blair is one, you can see it on his face, But this involves us all and I for one, will not look the other way,I have seen terrorism first-hand, and it stinks in all shapes and forms, I stand by my American Brothers and Sisters, God Bless... PeteL..

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 14:48:15 (ZULU)

Guys. I have been in NYC since 3:00 on Tuesday. The sitution is more grave and overwhelming than the news is capable of describing.

Hundreds of brave rescue workers are dead, as are thousands of innocent civilians. Many will not be uncovered for weeks, and the horrid task of digging through the rubble, finding few and fewer survivors each day has only just begun. Some, many of the rescue workers that survive, will never be 100% again.

My opinion.

The standard has been set. By the NYC firefighters and police, that at this moment are still there, working for 48 hours now, in terrible danger, with falling debris, fire and asbestos everywhere... they have not waivered for one second...they are working smart, trying to save thier brothers and the innocent...

We must follow in thier lead... I suggest the following:

Law Enforcement and the Military.- Devise a comprehensive plan to fix this. It MUST NOT HAPPEN AGAIN and everyone involved in this act must die.

Everyone else - Take a real good look at how different parts of your federal governent operate in this time of stress...the parts that fail must be repaired... My personal experience in NYC suggests that the feds slowed the rescue in some cases... I'll hold back final judgement as all the facts are not clear.

The victims.

I am biased. I am a firefighter. There are thousands of families that lost a parent... most will need help. Focus some of your immediate attention there... $5 toward some dead firefighter/cop's child education might do more than a pint of blood right now...

Fixing the problem and preventing any more needless deaths with do the most.

Respectfully

Jim Mitchell

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 15:20:58 (ZULU)

I have lived with blood on my hands but it was not the blood of the not gulty. This can be done without hurting many uninvolved and thats the way America has and should continue to do things. We have the means of doing this and keeping our way of life, liberty and justice intact. Never give up your principals.

We all have to fight back the anger. First rule in a fight is to control your anger so you act with thought and planning. He who spins out of control just gets dizzy, makes bad choices and later wishes he had thought things out more before he acted.

When this is all done remember:

1. Dope it

2. Dial it

3. Dump them.

Mike

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 15:21:20 (ZULU)

Finally we Canadians have gotten a spine - looks like we are going to be digging rats out in Afg with you.

Kevin - of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:06:16 (ZULU)

Morning all had a lot of catching up with e-mails and such for the last 4 or 5 days:

Tony White and Bruce my prayers to you and your close ones.

Ken: Speedy recovery to the Major hope all is going well.

I had to depart the Sniper class at Storm early this week when I couldn't establish any como with the wife at the WTC. She works for US Customs in 6 WTC, that's the building directly below the first tower that was hit. All's well and I give her a lot of credit for using her instincts to vacate the AO with authority. Apparently even though they have a lot of warning and evacuation plans in place they aren't worth a shit because half of the people that got out just stood around looking up waiting for a burning building to hit them in the head and most of the ones in the towers didn't have a clue as to how serious things were getting so a lot just rode the building to the ground. I blame that on the idiots that broadcast over the loud speakers for people to go back to there offices. She remembered what occurred back in 93 when the WTC was first hit, how they locked down the city and stranded tens of thousands of people without having a clue as to how to provide for them. She grabbed a lot of her co- workers and had them run for the ferry's just as the second plane hit the other tower. All of them made it out ok.

I talked with Rod that evening and he said the class was scrubbed because there was a couple of 20th SF doctors in the class and they had to report to their unit. So now I get to do this again next year. Ken keep working on the PT looks like we might be teaming up for the next one.

Brian I too have friends that are NYC PD and Port Authority PD that are unaccounted for. My heart is out to all their families and friends. Also to all the vendors that sell coffee and newspapers in the lobbies, I'm sure a lot of them would be reluctant to leave there business and vacate leaving everything behind.

Pat I finally got to shoot the 6.5-06 past 300 yds and I'm very impressed. It behaves a little better than a 308 out to 500 than after that it acts like the 300 WM when it gets out there. It needed around 26 MOA at 1000, my partners 308 was needing 33 - 34 MOA. I was using 7 MOA of left wind for center mass hits he needed 13. Those 142 MKs worked great in that short Hart barrel. Me thinks we got a good one.

Any of you guys work with the Airlines or the FAA and could shed some light on how it's going to be to travel with weapons and ammo in the near future? The Texas match is just around the corner.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:06:37 (ZULU)

Ok guys, let's change the subject.

Waddaya say??

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:18:06 (ZULU)

Well, I haven't posted in a long time. But even then I have made few posts; due to recent events I feel the need to post. So, here we go.

First, I do not think we should bomb anyone for this terrible act. What I feel we should do is invade, over throw and plunder thier country. We should hunt down all those involved in the plot and execute them on the spot. Then we should go after any other terrorist leaders covertly and assinate them with out a word, or hint of our involvement. Good old 1960's and 70's CIA covert ops stuff. If we choose to invade I would be willing to re-enlist if they would take my 39 yr old butt. I Served ten yrs Army,andI regret not choosing the Leather Neck way of life.

To Quote John Wanye from the movie the shootist.

"I wont be Wronged,

I wont be Insulted,

And I wont be laid a

hand on. I don't do

these things to others,

And I require the same

from them."

Words to live by.

Lt. Chris, As a fellow donut eater. I just have this to say. You ever notice the guys who aren't brave are the first to critize other that face danger every day. By the way everyone I run into who makes donut jokes here. I advise them this is Texas, we don't eat donuts. We eat tacos. (No flame ment to the person who may have bashed him, just a personal observation. I have been told many times, that I'm just acting tough because I'm wearing a badge. I've been tough since I was a kid and will act that way till I die. I tolerate less off duty than on duty. If your screwing up I'll let you know. And I'm not an impossing figure. Just have a take charge attitude.) Dang I rambled...

As far as shooting related stuff goes, anyone have any knowledge of Voere Titan rifles? I believe they are now defunct, but sold thier patent to Mauser. Mauser calls it a Model 99. Went and shot mine the other day. Shot three, three shot groups at 300yds. Biggest group was 1.75" It's a 270 win. topped with a Loopey Vari-X 2, 3x9. Not bad for a deer rifle huh?

That Is All.

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 16:20:29 (ZULU)

IT AINT GONNA WORK!!!

If you hunt down the guys that did it, kill them, and their money-men.

The next day their brothers, sons, fathers, uncles, etc. will pick up the sword and continue the fight.

If you turn the whole country to "glass", the islamic country next door will take that as proof that you are the "evil realm" and take up the fight. Only quieter, stealthier, and harder to defend.

Either way you are in a Holy War that will not end until a whole culture is destroyed. Do we and our allies have the "sand" for that?

The US might. It did a couple of hundred years ago. But the make-up of the country has changed since then. The euro's no.

The only "easy" way out is if each and every country does "the hard thing" inside its borders, and cooperates with each and every country.

Each country has to find each and every perpetrator, arrest him, find out the identity, of all his cronies, using whatever means necessary! and kill him. No repeat offenders.

Every prick that lives outside of productive society is a contributor.

Terrorist organisations, drug smugglers, false ID producers, bankers who hide the money, corrupt government officials (worldwide) and religous leaders who expouse violence, and violent criminals of all kinds.

But that won't ever happen either.

So... protect whats your's, hope that your neighbor is as watchful as you are, and hope that our intelligence and military community is more watchful and resolute than you both.

And God help us all.

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
most churches per capita, check Guiness, USofA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:05:58 (ZULU)

I heard just a few minutes ago that last night in Patterson, NJ there was street partying by an arab/muslim contingent. Can anyone shed light on this?

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:10:49 (ZULU)

Just heard they found 5 firemen in a buried SUV, ALIVE, any one confirm this?

Any Arab or any one found partying and celebrating this awfull attack, should have their toenails pulled,be tared and feathered and have their whole family deported back to Goatf_ckistan, in a pig crate, which should be thrown out of a Hercy Bird at 300 feet,

what did I say about them laughing in your face, they had street parties in NI, when some Squaddie or RUC bought the farm.

Animals, all of em!! Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:26:21 (ZULU)

That's a firm Pete, 5 found, 3 got out on their own power 2 are in good shape but hurt. I hope we see many more miracles before this is done.

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hilbilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 17:50:53 (ZULU)

Report that Iraq is not involved:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_3.html

I'll stop posting premature speculation. We'll know what we need to know soon enough.

The next link is from the flagship publication of American liberalism.

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/092401/kaplan092401.html

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/092401/cohen092401.html

Thier opinion includes the advocation of inflicting an intolerable amount of death and pain and horror and leaving the lawyers home. This is significant. Welcome aboard, guys. We'll resume our internecine fire-fight when time permits.

I talk to highly intelligent Russians five days a week. They long realized the nature of our common enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend....for now. This is also significant.

Psychologists have a term for calling everyone you don't like names like "coward." It's called "projection."

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:08:43 (ZULU)

Last entry..............

It seems, that we as usual are in the process of PC, political posturing.........

We, are discussing WHAT we should do, and probably when, and how with every body and their dogs........(other countries).

We, are even at odds HERE, as true patriots, and brothers.....on What & How we should go about this.

Good or Bad, I come from the old school.........

I was born, and raised when this country didn't answer to ANYONE except it's OWN citizens......

You crapped in our nest, you were stomped IMMEDIATELY........

This, in my opinion has changed dramatically.........we care more about the court of World opinion than we do about our OWN citizens.

This is EXACTLY the reason we WERE targeted..........we have allowed ourselves to become a paper Tiger, and ruled like, and by a bunch of women.

This task, should be left to the LEADERS of our Armed forces............

With input from the Pres.

As far as having to fight cousins, brothers, etc, etc, etc, go..........SO what........

When Politicos RUN the military, and care more about what some other country thinks.....we are in deep Voodoo.........

I am not writing this in Anger, only as an older member of this site, I KNOW what works, and what doesn't when dealing with terrorists, and tyrants..........

Pure, unadulterated BRUTE force, in amounts NO ONE can withstand...........you cannot kill a snake, by severing the tail...........and, we have a den FULL.

Medic Jim, God Bless you take care brother............watch your arse.

Shoes

Terry <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:26:25 (ZULU)

Thank God for small miracles, lets hope for many, many, many more,

Caison, no-way jo-se would you catch me chasing wild boar with a 22lr, I feel a little under gunned with a 9mm Para, (no one offered comment on the Browning BDA by the way) and I was thinking of going bigger, I just haven't the heart to sell the pistol. Hey I did some tunnel ratting in California, crawling through Bear tunnels in ? manzanita? bushes, 300wm in hand(Howa/RWS 89), ruined the stock, I'd like to try it again with a 44mag pistol.

Ref the Voere rifles, I think they are still carried in catalogues here, these and Antonio Zoli and a few others are all mauser types any way, Voere are well made, solid rifles, not overly popular, not overly expensive, Voere make combination shotgun/rifles also, but maybe they have shut down, many many arms and shooting related businesses have ceased trading lately, the bottom has dropped out of the market here, Winchester/FN had a big close down sale in Belgium a couple of months ago, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:32:19 (ZULU)

To All,

Buddy of mine sent me this. Thought it summed up a few things pretty well. Everybody stay safe.

Fitz.

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a

remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair,

a Canadian television commentator.

What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as

printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as

the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people

on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were

lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in

billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.

None of these countries is today paying even the interest

on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the

Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted

and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States

that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities

were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars

into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are

writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over

the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.

Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal

the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them?

Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.

You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the

moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right

in the store window for everybody to look at.

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are

here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking

Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home

to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down

through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them.

When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke,

nobody loaned them an old caboose.

Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of

other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when

someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?

I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco

earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is

damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

They will come out of this thing with their flag high.

And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at

the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope

Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

Fitz. <sfitzgerald@arpac.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 18:36:06 (ZULU)

TonyY,

Glad you and your wife are safe. Saw your post on the 6.5-06 and am intrigued. I think I remember from previous posts that it has a 21" barrel but that is all I can remember. What are the specs of the rifle (action type, bbl mfr, etc.) Also, what is the load you are having success with?

Jim Mitchell and all others working through the carnage; Thanks. Your efforts are appreciated.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:05:22 (ZULU)

Fitz, Hear, Hear to that,

but don't judge the general citizens of all these countries who where once helped and don't help back, the politicians are the ones with no back bone, ok, maybe some of these politicaly correct liberals have no backbone either, but if you guys blow the bugle, there are many Europeans who would ride to the sound of guns, I have no friends who wouldn't, be they German, British, Dutch whatever, we are behind you guys and at your side, you can count on us, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:15:36 (ZULU)

I'm responding to those people who have asked about places to shoot (Hot Tips and Cold Shots). The NRA has a large listing of ranges in each state (in the USA). Go to the NRA home page at http://www.mynra.com/

In the extreme left column click on "shooting".

This will bring you to the Shooting page....to the right of the heading "Shooting" click on "Shooting range locator". At bottom of page under "Look up gun ranges by state" choose the state in which you wish to find ranges, and click on "submit query".

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards.

God Bless America!

(Will the US military or other legitimate organization accept a sincere offer from a 49 year old High Master in good shape to help reduce the number of terrorists?)

Saverio Scozzafava <scozz@mediaone.net>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:34:03 (ZULU)

Tony,

Glad the wife is fine!! To bad about the class though. I knew you would become a fan of the 6.5s once you started shooting one. Its like shooting a 300WM with a lot less recoil.

When I got mine I found out how much better I came at calling the wind too(HA)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:35:53 (ZULU)

Paul,

Since you asked, I went back, asked, and finally found the source of the 2nd post of mine above....

http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm

The first post was wholly my own opinion....

-L

Leslie Bright <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 19:43:14 (ZULU)

This was sent to me today....SSG

I AM THE FLAG OF THE

> >UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

> >

> >I am the flag of the United States of America.

> >My name is Old Glory.

> >I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.

> >I stand watch in America's halls of justice.

> >I fly majestically over institutions of learning.

> >I stand guard with power in the world.

> >Look up and see me.

> >

> >I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.

> >I stand for freedom.

> >I am confident.

> >I am arrogant.

> >I am proud.

> >

> >When I am flown with my fellow banners,

> >my head is a little higher,

> >my colors a little truer.

> >

> >I bow to no one!

> >I am recognized all over the world.

> >I am worshipped - I am saluted.

> >I am loved - I am revered.

> >I am respected - and I am feared.

> >

> >I have fought in every battle of every war

> >for more then 200 years.

> >I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg,

> >Shiloh and Appamatox.

> >I was there at San Juan Hill,

> >the trenches of France,

> >in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome

> >and the beaches of Normandy, Guam.

> >Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon, Vietnam now me,

> >I was there.

> >I led my troops,

> >I was dirty, battleworn and tired,

> >but my soldiers cheered me

> >And I was proud.

> >I have been burned, torn and trampled

> >on the streets of countries I have helped set free.

> >It does not hurt, for I am invincible.

> >

> >I have been soiled upon, burned, torn

> >and trampled on the streets of my country.

> >And when it's by those whom I've served in battle - it hurts.

> >But I shall overcome - for I am strong.

> >

> >I have slipped the bonds of Earth

> >and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space

> >from my vantage point on the moon.

> >I have borne silent witness

> >to all of America's finest hours.

> >But my finest hours are yet to come.

> >

> >When I am torn into strips

> >and used as bandages

> >for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,

> >When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier,

> >Or when I lie in the trembling arms

> >of a grieving parent

> >at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,

> >I am proud.

> >

> >MY NAME IS OLD GLORY

> >LONG MAY I WAVE.

> >DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN

> >LONG MAY I WAVE!

> >

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, MD, The ONLY one - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 20:48:11 (ZULU)

Words to describe this cowardly act still have to be invented...

My deepest condolences go out to all Americans, but especially to the brave man and woman who died trying to save others.

I was training with my boys in Bergen-Belsen when i heard of the news. First we all thought it was some sort of bad joke, just couldnt believe something of this magnitude would ever happen for real, how sick must one be to even imagine of a coward attack like this, even "Tom Clancy" could not invent this.....

But when we saw the first images we realized it was for real.

On wednesday all german, english and dutch troops stopped shooting for half-an hour in respect for the first fallen victims of this WAR, because thats what this is, all out WAR.

Watching the images of palestinians celebrating made me puke and very angry, and worse, even in my own home-town, the Hague, folks from Marocco were celebrating as if it was christmas...those kind of people almost (almost) make me want to grab a scoped .308 and do something really stupid.

But when one is angry it is o so easy to forget that one bad apple does not mean the whole basket is full of rotten fruit.

Only this time "they" have gone to far, this is no longer the time to talk but it is time to respond and hurt them in an mid-eval kind of way, slow, long and hard.

Only hope for one thing, that before the USA retaliates, it will have thinked long and hard about the who and the how to.

I agree with Mike Miller and Mark D and in many ways with Pablito about this, but folks, when we (you) start talking about carpet bombing and even about using Trident Nukes....what is this world coming to???

Are we, the "civilised" western world gonna go as low as these rats have? Is the solution to start killing civilians?? Should we too kill inncocent woman and children, only because the enemy does it too,just in the name of revenge?

Yes, i am scared and not afraid nor ashamed to admit it, when people start to talk about nukes, because we all can be damned sure when the first american nukes go airborne, other nukes will land on American soil, and i hate to see that happen cause i have taken the whole of the USA deeply into my heart, and ofcourse WWIII will be lurking around the corner when that happens.

I think your Collin Powell has the answer (if there is such a thing as a answer in this case) when he said that this is going to be a long, hard and more importantely, a global fought WAR against terrorism.

The whole world, not just the USA but every country in the world should do what ever it takes to destroy/ eradicate this evil, to make sure that no-one will ever get the nerve to do something like this again.

I do not believe however that the whole of the middle-east is the enemy and carpet bombing or nuking country's who have helped and aided the enemy will not be the answer, it will only provide terrorist organisations like the Hamas with plenty of new recruits, no, like some of the rosterfarians said, go after all known terrorists and organisations, shoot the shit out of them and every one who helped and aided them and make sure you take out every cell and keep exterminating every time a new threat pops up, let the rest of the world know that no-one messes with the USA and gets away with it, just stay human and do not turn into the animals who organised these attacks.

The Israeli way does not work, for every civilian daddy they kill, 4 new hamas recruits stand up to revenge their daddy, and more innocent Israeli's get blown up, even as we speak.

My guess is if you carpet bomb whole cities, guilty or not, more and even more violent attacks on US woman and children will occur on US soil, and i know the will to send american soldiers abroad to do some killing is great among the American people at this time of greeving, but how many young american son's are you willing to sacrifice in the name of revenge, 1000, 20.000 even 50.000?

Will it bring back the woman and children who worked or visited the WTC??

Should we then do nothing and be forgiving??

HELL NO!!

Maybe i have no right to speak, because i have lost no-one in this attack, maybe i would think different if some-one of my own familiy had died in that attack, maybe... i hope not.

I am no coward, just a sergeant in an Army of a very small nation who also signed the Nato article number 5, and will be proud and willing to fight along my american brothers in arms against any terrorist abiding country if it ever comes to that, only hope that all concerning partys keep their heads clear and will make inteligent desicions.....

This event has made me loose all my desire to come to the states and do some shooting in any long-range competition, do not find it apropiate for me to bring a .308 long arm along my trip on an aircraft.

Anyways, may the guilty die slowly and all my thoughts are with the familys who are greeving about their losses, and for the service people who are still working and risking their own lives to rescue others, my respect is for you,

Marco

Se vis para parabellum.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:14:47 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, these are trying times for us all.To those who lost loved ones I offer my sincerest condolences, the heinous acts are indeed an "act of war".Do not let these acts go unpunished, whether it takes weeks, months or years "never I repeat never" let the flames of vengence or the memories of the dead die.

Things will and must change in order to protect us as Americans, our borders are threatened,let our defense be our offense and let us awake to the truth and gain wisdom from the events which were brought to our doorstep.

Psalm 27:1-3: "The Lord is my light and my salvation - whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life - of whom shall I be afraid? When evil men advance against me to devour my flesh, when my enemies and my foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though an army besiege me, my heart will not fear; though war break out against me, even then will I be confident."

We will prevail as a nation, all of us as one.

"GOD BLESS AMERICA"

pawn <pawn@willinet.net>
USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:26:19 (ZULU)

Paul...

>"I heard just a few minutes ago that last night in Patterson, NJ there was street partying by an arab/muslim contingent. Can anyone shed light on this?"<

Yes, it's true! (More of the "shocked" muslims).

Peter-L... drmarc...

>"Just heard they found 5 firemen in a buried SUV, ALIVE, any one confirm this?"<

Not true... it was reported earlier, but retracted. Two firefighters fell into a pit this morning, and came out this afternoon.

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:40:46 (ZULU)

Something that was sent to me in a mass mailing. It's kind of interesting:

Nostradamus

This is a quatrain from one of his predictions:

"In the year of the new century and nine months, from the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. Fire approaches the great new city..."

"In the city of York there will be a great collapse, 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos, while the fortress fall the great leader will succumb the third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

NOSTRADAMUS

2001 is the first year of the new century and this is the 9th month. New York is located at the 41st degree Latitude. He also said that this will be the third World War and it would be bigger than the last two wars. I hope he is wrong, but judging from his predictions of Hitler, Napoleon, and Pearl Harbor....

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:55:27 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, I heard this once when I was working sex crimes/crimes against children. It is from German philosopher F. Nietzsche. It has always stuck with me and I thought it also applied to the current situation.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he himself does not become a monster"

"When you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"

Gentlemen, pray that our leaders make intelligent, decisive choices, based on the facts of the case, beyond refute and then . . . kick some raghead ass.

To our brothers overseas, Thanks.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 21:55:28 (ZULU)

Everybody calm down. We're not nuking or carpet-bombing anyone. The country is under adult supervision.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 22:50:07 (ZULU)

RE: Nostradamus

It's a hoax. Ref the website below...

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa091101b.htm

Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 23:18:18 (ZULU)

CDC...

>'The country is under adult supervision."<

Aw Man... now you went and ruined it all... I thought there was a chance it could get more betterer :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 23:25:02 (ZULU)

God Damn, I said we needed a Pearl Harbor, but for the love of God? I'm not at all happy at being right, feeling kinda low actually.

Spent a day and a night on top of a building with my rifle for the Corps, sure lots of others did the same. Everybody checked in, and got lots of calls from people wanting to enlist. Enough said on that. Buddy of mine I went to Quantico with is NYFD. Good guy, hard charger, was probably right in the middle of it. Haven't heard from him.

The goal is preventing this from ever happening again. We do that by killing everyone involved in making this happen, as well as killing anyone who gets involved in anything against the US in the future. If putting the fear of God, via thermonuclear cauterization, into the terrs is required, so be it. Do that as necessary, if it is necesary. I'd like to keep as much of our civil rights as possible, preferably all of them. US citizens have rights. Everyone else is pretty much a walking, talking B-mod right now. I don't particulary like myself for the fact that I dehumanize people so easily, but it'll make things easier should it come down to that. This isn't going to be a standup fight, it's more clandestine and covert stuff ala green beanies.

Hey master Rick, you take Marines on permissive TAD orders at SOTIC?

God Bless. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 23:37:18 (ZULU)

Guys,been offline for a couple of days due to kids sabotaging puter.

Deepest sympathy and prayers to y'all.

To all in or near the scene watch your arse.

To any vermin involved,kiss yours goodbye.

G.W

out

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
one shot , one raghead, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 00:11:04 (ZULU)

Hey Hogs,

I post here VERY VERY rare so you may not reconize me . . . . .

I need to get some info.

I am in Northearstern PA and want to locate a dealer of Black Hills Ammo in easteren PA of close to me. I can't find any that will deal. Any ideas and prices per case??? (300WinMag 190Gr HPBT)

Thanks and you help is apperciated!

David

DJ Bolinski <david@proserv.microserve.com>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 00:29:50 (ZULU)

God Be With You All.

I pray that for those tha in the time to come will come under duress in the effort to root those out that have perpetrated this awful crime against humanity. I pray for those that have endured it.

I also pray for a chance to do my part, God willing.

I am young. 34

I have sand, and some shooting skills.

Would that -I- can make a difference.

Would that, many, feel the same.

It's not going to be pretty, I just hope a lot more than me feel the same.

avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 01:19:10 (ZULU)

What the hell is wrong with people? Larry King has a special on right now, and they interviewed some bleeding heart lib at a vigil in one of the affected cities. She "Doesn't believe in violence" and thinks we should respond with "love and kindness". I fail to understand how people can feel that if we were a country of pacifists, then this won't happen anymore. Would she feel the same way if her 4 year old daughter were in one of these places when some sh#tbag decides too kill her simply because she's an American? Probably thinks gun control would eliminate crime too.

Once, in high school, I asked my ROTC instructor (a Navy Master Chief) how the bible can be followed by someone who may have to kill, after all we're supposed to forgive, and turn the other cheek. Without hesitation this teacher, MCPO and church minister replied "Yes, but we only have two cheeks."

No one with an appreation of life wants war, but we've definitely run out of cheeks. While my job doesn't entail looking at the bastards in my sight as the trigger is pulled, it does have direct impact on our ability to effectively kill whatever target so deserves. When we get everything sorted out and can identify the target(s), I'll gladly pass along the ammunition.

While I'm pissing about things, anyone have a line for contactin K-mart to give them a rash of crap over their idiotic reaction?

Providing the enemy the opportunity to die for his cause...

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 01:57:56 (ZULU)

The Taliban is offering us a deal. Pull a stunt like this then offer a deal. Isn't that precious?

Let's put it this way: I'm looking at your two deuces and am holding an ace high straight flush. I call and raise. It's just that simple.

averageshooter says that it's not going to be pretty. Allow me to respectfully disagree. It's going to be beautiful.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 02:24:21 (ZULU)

CDC...

What's the deal?? I just turned off the toob and didn't hear anything.

I gotta deal for them... ALL the Taliban surrenders themselves, all their political leaders, Osama Bin Laden, and all his crowd and followers, and we take them out, and let the country have new elections, and a 50 year probation period.

Plus they pay us $10,000,000,000,000 in damages, and reparations

Ya' think???

And, CDC... I also think it's gonna be B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L... I want 24/7 TV coverage of the attack, and a case of blank video tapes.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One bullet, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 02:41:46 (ZULU)

I'm sorry CDC. It's going to to beautiful to finally have some justice for the things rendered unto us. I meant ugly and just in our retribution. War is never pretty. I speak as a young man that wants justice and understand the terrible aspect of war. My grandfather and my father have explained this to me. Still I want to help. Glad to see you back CDC. It's been some time.

acgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:08:47 (ZULU)

Pablo: My mistake.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010913/ts/attack_afghan_radio_dc_1.html

averageshooter: Justice is a nice mild concept we reserve for respectable criminals. They don't fear it, and we aren't going to settle for it. They gave us moral license to see them with thier backs broke in Hell.

See the look in Dubya's eye? He was a fighter pilot. He's settling in. He'll do fine.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:13:04 (ZULU)

Mark D. Wrote:

We should send all the aid we can to the countries that support terrorist.

Put me down for one bodybag filled with pig shit!!

Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:24:10 (ZULU)

A few Usama Bin Laden Graphics you might like are at:

http://www.memorableplaces.com/temp/wallpaperchoices.html

You may use these on your own websites, as wallpaper on your pc, as screensaver photos on your pc, or (someone emailed me and asked this) as targets if you desire.

At this hour I have SIX of them posted.

Enjoy!

Charles

Charles - Usama Fanclub Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 03:47:51 (ZULU)

As I write this I am watching the news and they are telling of a rescue attempt for 10 police officers trapped in the rubble who managed to contact the outside. I hope to God that they are reached in time and that others are also found. I would like to express my condolenses to all who have lost some one in this tradegy and pray that those who are missing are found alive. I am currently on standby alert and am waiting fro a phone call which might or might not come. A lot of people are attempting to lay blame for this tradegy and are rightly blaming the terrorist factions most likely responsible. It should also be realized just what allowed this to occur. It was not lax security by the men and women charged with that responsibility nor to the intelligence agencies which have been ham strung for years now. the ultimate responsibility for this goes to the "leadership" with which we lived with for 8 years which was to afraid of looking "bad" infront of the world community, the writers of history or who ever it was that he was trying to impress. william Jefferson Clinton finally has that legacy which he so desperately wanted. According to the news he was at the scene in NY meeting with the victims. It's to late to get absolution for this one.

Terrorists are like criminals in the fact that they only strike when they believe they can get away with it. when they know that their vivtims are afraid and will not fight back. We have a new leader and it is time for us to stop being afraid... and everyone else to start. If they want a holy war, I say give them holy hell. Always payback in excess of what you receive. Good hunting to all those headed into the darkness.

John Murphy

JOHN MURPHY <X191145@AOL.COM>
MILFORD, NH, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 04:31:56 (ZULU)

It's a Boy...

I have been reading the roster for a few years, and learned much here.

This past week, has been terrible, really, for the "free world". I myself feel that there are some necessary responses to follow. I also wonder, how far will it go, and how much of the "back and forth" will be shared.

Then I also remember, that my wife is pregnant, or at least she was.

Today, she gave me a baby boy, born at 4:37 pm, local time, (not sure what that is "zulu") After two girls, I now have a son, and it coincidentally is my birthday today also. I, like all other fathers, want everything to be the best for my children, yet all this that is going on here, sure complicates the thoughts.

At 8 lbs, 11 oz. and 22 inches long, our red-headed "Joshua" is here, and I truly hope, that however this US-MidEast situation is dealt with, there will be no residual problems for him to have to deal with in his lifetime...

Finished with the philosophy for the day, and now getting the old M70, .300 winnie out for some moose hunting in the next month. Gotta fill the freezer.

Out,

oh yeah,,, just how old should your first son be, before he gets his first rifle? After all, Joshua is already 6 hours, and 18 minutes old.

just a thought,,,,,

God Bless, and stay safe.

Sean Thomas <nailer@mackbc.com>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 06:02:42 (ZULU)

OK CDC.

Target sited.

Target locked...

Gung Ho Gung Ho..!!!!!!!!!

I still I hope I can help. Have given blood already.

avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 06:28:38 (ZULU)

Fitz...RE: America: The Good Neighbor...

This was written in 1971. It saw Top 40 airplay in 1973, and the guy who wrote it died in 1984. Just thought you might like to know.

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 07:24:15 (ZULU)

Sean Thomas, congrats with your boy, good to hear something positiv in these days of sorrow and greeve.

Just a "few" hours more and he should be able to hold and shoot his first rifle, i'd say do not give him a heavy calibre for his first rifle, start with a .308 or 30-06, scoped ofcourse, and when he is old enough to say "range me", you might want to give him something heavier like a .338, and maybe for his second birthday he would apreciate a nice toy like the Barret .50 or the new 25 mm Steyer anti-material rifle....

Another wave of terrorist attacks has been prevented, about 10 new terrorist have been arrested on the airports of new york, 4 of them were already inside a plane ready for take-off...1 question pops to my mind; How is it possible that even now, after these horror story's it is still possible for wanna-be terrorists to gain acces to a plane with knifes and fake pilot-id's???

How many of these cells are still walking around and waiting to board new planes??

Maybe they should give the arrested suspects to us, rosterfarians and let them loose on a training course like SMTC, let them run on the 600 yard line, give us some good moving target practice....i think i can put a round or 3 in a kneecap or 2 at that range...

Anger is such an evil feeling...

Hope we soon get back to our normal shooting/ rifles/ ammo/ sniper related discussions again,

Marco

Scientia et usu in vita permanemus

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 07:37:11 (ZULU)

American Express has a special deal...

The price of:

1 - Authentic Towel, robe, and sandles, about $350.

2 - M24 and Mk4-M3, with all kit, about $4,000.

3 - Forged papers and forged Afganistan passport, about $15,000.

4 - Chartered Jet to middle east, about $40,000.

5 - Camel and guides to Afganistan, about $5,000.

6 - Osama Bin Laden in your crosshairs, P-R-I-C-E-L-E-S-S

:))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 10:57:56 (ZULU)

Ref: Air Travel w/firearms

In light of recent events and the increased airline security I wonder what effect if any there will be on our ability to travel with firearms in our checked baggage? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Ref: Ranges In the Northeast

Yesterday I visited the NRA web site and reviewed the list of ranges in New York State. The longest range (500 yards) listed is at Camp Smith along the Hudson. Have any of you shot there? If so I'd like to learn more about it.

Ref: Anger

We're all angry about the attacks as we should be. Just remember that there is a very real difference between THEM and US. We're the Good Guys and they're the Bad Guys. If we begin to act like THEM we'll lose the right to call ourselves the Good Guys. We should show the Bad Guys no quarter but try very hard to avoid wanton killing. Would I find it gratifying to "glaze" Afghanistan? Yes! Would this solve the problem permanently? I doubt it.

Ref: The Enemy

From what I've seen on TV I've been able to figure out this much. They are not cowards. They willingly died for their cause. They are not stupid. Their planning and execution of the attacks was complex and nearly flawless. They are well funded. What they did took lots of cash. They are ruthless. They cannot be negotiated with. They cannot be intimidated. They will fight. They are not few. From what I've see so far there's a bunch of them. Those of us chosen to hunt these people I suggest you leave the handcuffs off your packing list.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:06:10 (ZULU)

Afghans were old hands at fighting in those mountains when Alexander The Great marched through. They are goddamned good at it. Research the British and Russian experiences there. Neither were pleasant. Pay particular attention to thier use of rifles. We have no monopoly. This isn't Desert Storm. The boobs on the tube were contemplating a mass airbourne assault by The 82nd. That would be stupidity beyond measure.

Arabs aren't the enemy. That's good, because there are a lot of them. If I remember right there are about 750,000,000 Muslims. The Bad Guys expect us to do something to polarize and radicalize The Believers. The "Kill 'em all" strategy espoused by the guy who thinks that I'm an "uneducated moron", a "bleeding heart liberal" and a "coward" would seem unworkable.

Our leadership is good and we hold the cards. Through the use of patience, courage, intelligence and an iron-clad and ruthless determination we will exact our revenge and send this dark age scum to fry in Hell.

Remember with reverence The Men on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. That was as good as Bastione or The Alamo.

We are descended from the greatest warriors in history. They were lions. They demand nothing less of us.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:23:01 (ZULU)

I would like to start by offering my heart felt condolences to all those whom have lost loved ones in these mindless acts of terror!

My country has lived with a terrorist threat for as long as I remember

and I understand the shock, horror and bitterness such acts cause.

however the scale of recent events dwarves our own experiences in the UK so your fury as individuals is understandable.

For many years, having served in areas where our hands are tied and the terrorists run amok due to the rule of Law, I have felt that the only way to fight Fear is with Fear!

We know who these people are, where they live and yet they bathe in wealth and power, laughing at our constraints.

No More!

We must hunt these people down wherever they hide and irradicate them from the face of the Earth. I personally do not wish to see them bombed into submission, History proves this doesn't work, Saddams still there. I not saying don't bomb, I just saying it would be far nicer to get up close and personal with these individuals to experience their fear as they gasp their final breath.

As a Nation we stand at your side, poised ready to strike!

God Bless You All, and good luck in what is about to become!

Slugboy!

Slugboy <slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:57:47 (ZULU)

Hey ALLAH !!! Unite this you Raghead Mother F%$#*r

It's Payback Time !!!!!

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 13:34:41 (ZULU)

First, my sincerest sympathy and hopes go out to anyone touched in any way by the recent tradegy... I am fortunate in that the friends I have who were in and around the WTC at the time have all checked in and I am truly grateful.

Second, I have another quick question from a new shooter. Is there a need to have a gunsmith install the Badger rail on my new Remington 700 or do most people install them on their own?

I'm mechanically inclined but no gunsmith...

Thanks for any advice....

James Gibbons

James Gibbons <jgibbons@vppsa.com>
Hinesburg, VT, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 13:38:26 (ZULU)

Slugboy - my guess is we all will be going in to dig the vermin out - NATO combined force or something like that - Light/ABN inf and SF types - close with and destroy the enemy

'lito - like always you slay me.

Kevin - of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 14:11:51 (ZULU)

Tony, well said. De Oppresso Liber the souls of the T's. Send them to their god!

Pablito, good to go. Mildots to go before he sleeps.

Slugboy, great words. Thank you for the support of all of our people.

CDC, never heard anyone call you a moron. Great clips you have posted. Keep it up.

On Afgahistan, we are not the Russians and any country can be taken if the need be. I said yetserday we need to do this with great thought and I continue to believe this. However that does not mean I am against taking any country that refuses to cooperate. Like I said hunt down anyone that has anything to do with this: Before During or after and that includes hiding the dirt bags.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 15:17:33 (ZULU)

Ragged Old Flag

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I walked through a county courthouse square,

On a park bench an old man was sitting there.

I said, "Your old courthouse is kinda run down."

He said, "Naw, it'll do for our little town."

I said, "Your old flagpole has leaned a little bit,

And that's a Ragged Old Flag you got hanging on it."

He said, "Have a seat," and I sat down.

"Is this the first time you've been to our little town?"

I said, "I think it is." He said, "I don't like to brag,

But we're kinda proud of that Ragged Old Flag.

"You see, we got a little hole in that flag there when

Washington took it across the Delaware.

And it got powder-burned the night Francis Scott Key

Sat watching it writing Say Can You See.

And it got a bad rip in New Orleans

With Packingham and Jackson tuggin' at its seems.

"And it almost fell at the Alamo

Beside the Texas flag, but she waved on though.

She got cut with a sword at Chancellorsville

And she got cut again at Shiloh Hill.

There was Robert E. Lee, Beauregard, and Bragg,

And the south wind blew hard on that Ragged Old Flag.

"On Flanders Field in World War I

She got a big hole from a Bertha gun.

She turned blood red in World War II.

She hung limp and low by the time it was through.

She was in Korea and Vietnam.

She was sent where she was by her Uncle Sam.

"She waved from our ships upon the briny foam,

And now they've about quit waving her back here at home.

In her own good land here she's been abused --

She's been burned, dishonored, denied, and refused.

"And the government for which she stands

Is scandalized throughout the land.

And she's getting threadbare and wearing thin,

But she's in good shape for the shape she's in.

'Cause she's been through the fire before

And I believe she can take a whole lot more.

"So we raise her up every morning, take her

down every night.

We don't let her touch the ground and we fold

her up right.

On second thought, I do like to brag,

'Cause I'm mighty proud of that Ragged Old Flag."

Just wanted to share this with others as it's been shared with me..

God bless America

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 16:00:20 (ZULU)

Mike..

I have to disagree with you. In this day and age it is easy to take a country but nearly impossible to hold it. You could never hold Afganastan, as the Russians found out. It would be like trying to hold this country.

Every last man, child and woman who had or could use a gun would attack you any chance they got. The cost would be to high for any army. Besides that would never be and option you would only creat more hate.

We need to declare war on "THE" terrorists, Arabs, Irish, Spanish, Korean, Etc. If your name comes up as a bad guy you die. They should be hunted down and shot in the streets or as they sleep. This is the only way to do it right and not make a "Holy War" out of it. Your not signaling out any race or religion just "Terrorist" plain and simple. You come up on the list you die, no trials just death.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 16:27:31 (ZULU)

I agree Pat, I feel the solution must involve the best intelligence agency we can put together and global surgical strike teams to "erase" the terrorist's when we identify them. This should all be done well before they have the chance to organize. I just wonder, does the American public as a whole have the stomach to deal with this type of assasination campaign for the long haul. I feel for the most part the public's attention span is very short. Right now everybody is pissed, angry, and ready for some payback.But wait 5 or 6 months when the "war" inconveniences them, what then, a Vietnam war type homefront? I hope I am wrong but of late I have little faith in the majority of our liberal citizens ie.. CLINTON'S, we could just barely squeek President Bush into office.

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hilbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:00:15 (ZULU)

Undudeski...

So when the other guys were hangin' at Dunkin Donuts, you were sneekin a peak at Robert Frost... I'm impressed.

CDC...

I'm not so sure that the Russians would have had such a hard time, if it wasn't for us "Training" and supplying weapons to that bastard, Osama Bin Laden...

... hey wait a minute... lemme see now. We trained and armed Ho Che' Min against the Japanese and he turned against us, - we trained and armed Iraq against Iran and they turned against us, - and we trained and armed Iran against Iraq and they turned against us, so now they're both against us, - we trained Osama bin Laden against the Rooskies, and he turned against us, - we helped Castro, and he turned against us... we helped Haiti, and they shoot at us, and have stollen $10,000,000,000 (10 Billion) of our aid dollars in the last 5 years, AND they hate us, - and then there are all the little South American shit bird countries that we helped, and now they flip us the bird... I don't wanna even talk about Africa... we try to feed the starving Somali's and we get creamed, - and don't even mention the European countries that still owe us more money than our own national debt... in both money, and in the blood of our fathers (but they don't want to get involved). Japan looses a war that they started, and we poor billions and billions into their country to get it back on it's feet, and they won't let our products in, but flood our markets with their stuff... China? We pour trillions into their country to give them a business start, and they rob us, and corrupt our elections.

I ain't no rocket scientist on foreign affairs, but I could do a damn better job picking our allies by throwing a dart at a map, than the government has.

I think I could count our REAL allies on two hands, and maybe a few toes. The rest are whores, with their hands out, and Uncle Sam is the stupid "john" who thinks you can buy love with cash... HA! (as Pat would say!) Double HA!

Bring our aid, our care packages, our cash, and our military HOME, and lets look out for our own... you daddys out there want your sons to die for this crap... these people ain't worth a drop of Scooter's piss.

I'm tired of the TV telling me what happened on Tuesday, I know what happened... I wanna know about what is gonna happen.

I hear that the head "rag" from the Taliban says if we attack Afganistan, he'll retaliate with terrorism... HELLO??? Is there any intellegent life in Afganistan? Or is the sum total of all their IQ's together, about 63???

What the hell was Tuesday, and Beruit, and Lockerbee, and the Embasies, and... and... and... and...???

It's our turn, Dummies!

I wish, along with the SEALs, the SF, and all the rest, that we had trained terrorist squads... we got a lot to learn about 21st century war from them little Isreali puppies... pound for pound, they have it nailed down to a science.

I'm starting to rant... sorry, I need a nappie.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:10:00 (ZULU)

Youz bumz that think we can beat this thing with the "Best Intellegence"... go here"

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm

>From The Atlantic, July 2001 issue:

A former senior Near East Division operative says, "The CIA probably doesn't have a single truly qualified Arabic-speaking officer of Middle Eastern background who can play a believable Muslim fundamentalist who would volunteer to spend years of his life with shitty food and no women in the mountains of Afghanistan. For Christ's sake, most case officers live in the suburbs of Virginia. We don't do that kind of thing." A younger case officer boils the problem down even further: "Operations that include diarrhea as a way of life don't happen."

Behind-the-lines counterterrorism operations are just too dangerous for CIA officers to participate in directly. When I was in the Directorate of Operations, the Agency would deploy a small army of officers for a meeting with a possibly dangerous foreigner if he couldn't be met in the safety of a U.S. embassy or consulate. Officers still in the clandestine service say that the Agency's risk-averse, bureaucratic nature--which mirrors, of course, the growing physical risk-aversion of American society--has only gotten worse.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Intellegence! what Intellegence? we ain't got no steeenkin Intellegence!

They hang out in bars in George Town, and guess at what's going on.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:21:15 (ZULU)

'Lito, My reference above was with the inadequacy of our present intelligence system in mind, we need real intelligence and real nasty mo-fo's to do this type work.

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 17:27:10 (ZULU)

James Gibbons,

You'll probably have to look else where for rifle and shooting related talk. This is the new Terrorist Attack Country Duty Roster.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:03:42 (ZULU)

Dear Hogs,

Our country has suffered nearly 5,000 innocent casualties whose only crime was showing up for work or buying a plane ticket.

We have seen and heard what we believe is uncommon valor by average citizens, knowing they are going to die, sacrificing themselves to keep savages from wreaking further damage on our country.

We have seen the images of firemen and policemen rushing TOWARDS danger to rescue people they don't know, whose only connection to them was they were citizens in harm's way, and who tragically shared their fate.

This is the beginning of a long war. A world war. It won't be an MTV sound-byte special that will go away in a week. I don't believe you will see attention for it die away soon when you consider more innocent, non-uniformed victims died Tuesday than all the soldiers and sailors at Pearl Harbor and D-Day combined.

You immediately saw who our true friends are. Queen Elizabeth ordered, for the first time ever, the "Star-Spangled Banner" to be played at the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace. 500 British citizens are believed dead in the WTC ruins, more than in any other single domestic terrorist attack. The Germans immediately signed up affirming their full support.

It's ironic that Article 5 of the NATO Treaty (which was written to ensure the United States would cross the Atlantic to support any European NATO partner attacked by an external foe) would bring the Alliance to remind us that "An attack on one is an attack on all."

Notice once people realize the United States believes it has been morally wronged or screwed, pariahs take notice -- Cuba and Libya both immediately announced "Wasn't me!", knowing the barely leashed rage of Mr. Fair Play will begin his hunt.

Shit-can this idiot talk ASAP of "Rag-Heads and Camel-jocks". It's like the ignorance of those who blame us gun-owners any time some dip-shit steals a gun and blasts an innocent. It is stupid and hateful incitement. I would recommend you ask any of your Arab-American or Islamic-language acquaintances to join the FBI, NSA, or CIA -- we're going to need their help in the years to come. And by the way, our Gulf allies will be crucial to our future operations (in case you think air crews will be able to fly back and forth to Europe after every sortie, or troops will be able to tread water forever on their way to and from inland targets).

Put your money where your mouth is. This is the reason we have a 2nd Amendment and the DCM/CMP. If, like in WWII we need a cadre to quickly train the inducted youngster or enlistee of America to handle weapons and shoot, you will soon hear the call. The President has just activated 35,000 Reservists. In a full war, he can activate a million more, and recall the Inactive Ready Reserve and the Retired Reserve "For the duration plus one year" (read your initial enlistment contract). Learn how to shoot and teach service rifle or sniper rifle marksmanship.

Don't be surprised if it'll be hard to buy military-caliber brass, bullets, and components soon.

We will cut out this cancer from humanity, but it won't be quick, it won't be easy, and it won't be cheap in terms of dollars and lives.

But we WILL win.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:04:30 (ZULU)

Pablo:

Let me recap the situation Bonny Prince Ronny faced in the early '80s. I'm writing all this is off the top of my head while listening to a lecture on data structures, so forgive the sloppiness.

Carter let the Sovs grab Ethiopia, Aden, Mozambique, and Angola. The Sovs had the power to shut down the shipping lanes around Africa, the oil from The Persian Gulf and were in sight of controlling the irreplaceable South African strategic minerals.

They were implementing a mean and merciless policy designed to bypass our historical advantage of being surrounded by oceans by hitting our Achilles heel in Central America. They were trying to flank us so they could move on us through Mexico. They were coming, no bullshit.

The Russkies had made a brilliant tactical move to Kabul in order to achieve thier strategic goal of taking the warm water port they had craved since the time of the Czars. The road to that port had always been through Afghanastan. That's why the British were there in the 19th century.

Reagan saw that they had stretched themselves thin and that their entire Imperial structure could be destroyed by bleeding The USSR white in it's soft underbelly before it could close it's grip around our neck.

It worked and we won The Cold War.

Out West we were pissed because CIA purchases had driven up the cost of pack mules.

But that can can be forgiven. God Bless Ronald Reagan anyway.

Our intelligence agencies were dismantled starting about 1973 by a bunch of weenies starting with Senator Frank Church.

But all that is "coulda-woulda-shoulda". None of it is relavent.

We have a war to prosecute right here right now.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:34:06 (ZULU)

Pat you are wrong we agree. I suggest we take the country if need be and get who they wont give us. I have no interest in keeping land in another country. Give them a list of who we will come get if they dont hand them over, and then go in if we dont have them handed to us.

Pablito remeber this "By any means necessary"? Seems perfect now. I can count higher than my fingers and toes also.

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:46:07 (ZULU)

Hey fellas, I cannot find a US flag anywhere in SE Texas. Big or small, they are gone (off the shelves) !!!!!!!!!! Old Glory flying all over the place. Folks have resorted to red, white and blue ribbons. Wonderful to see.

I am angry for the dead and wounded and compassionate for their survivors. But damn, I am glad to see my Country bowed up. We have always had to do this. The Israelis too, for a much longer time than us. (Pharoah/Hitler/Arafat). No one has to tell this crowd that freedom ain't cheap and some asshole is always gonna try us.

I'd love to get bin Laden in the woods. I wonder just how good he really is.

B.R.A.S.S.,

Brian

PS: For all you TX Police, I spoke with an FAA Aviation Safety Inspector in Houston just now who is also a pilot and reserve deputy Sheriff. He double checked for me and told me that Peace Officers may still fly with their weapons under the old rules. He was busy as hell. I didn't think to ask about competitors/hunters. Sorry.

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 18:52:37 (ZULU)

Sinister;

Spoken as a true SF soldier and commander. We all need to refocus our thoughts. Myself included. Anger and rage will only make our foe stronger and harder to defeat.

I guess I'm pissed because the bastards used the same guerrilla tactics we have used ourselfs. Swift violent attacks designed to inflict maximum damage and physcological terror with economy of force and never to dominate the objective as to allow for rapid withdrawal.

It's time for us all to reassess the mission requirements.

It's just difficult to believe it had to happen on our own soil.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 19:15:28 (ZULU)

Anybody else notice ole Farrakhan ain't had much to say lately ?

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 19:25:03 (ZULU)

brian...

I think he got cancer or somfin, about 8 months ago... and it's pretty bad... I guess he wasn't on Alla's "A" list... ;)

CDC...

Good review of history.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 19:50:55 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Michael from Australia asked me to post the following, since he can't use his work email address to register.

Could you please post a simple message on the forum on my behalf expressing the sincere sympathies of myself, my family and my Co-workers to all in the US effected by this act undertaken by cowardly scum. To the members of the emergency services working to find survivors etc take care and remember the worlds thoughts and prayers for your collective safety are with you.

Secondly, to the men and women of the US Armed Services - my/our thoughts and prayers with you also, rely on your training, watch your backs and those of your buddies and please all come home when this is over.

Yours sincerely,

Michael. Canberra - Australia.

Marius - For Michael. Canberra - Australia. <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Canberra, Australia - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 21:21:42 (ZULU)

What Sinister said. Every war is going to be over by Christmas. None of them ever are.

In the words of the great man, "...blood and sweat and toil and tears..."

If you are of enlistment age and you are not in something serious like combat arms, remedy that now or forever hold your manhood cheap.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 21:39:04 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Amidst all the talk I'm still trying to do my job here at Sniper Country. I have added another article, most interesting, especially in the light of the recent terrorist attacks in the US.

Hijacked Bus Takedown: The Basics.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, September 14, 2001, at 22:10:13 (ZULU)

Hogs,

God Bless America! I temper the my sorrow with the pride I feel of being an American!

I'm still lookin at knives. Everyone told me to buy a Ka-Bar, so I will. They just came out with new Ka-Bar's made of D2 tool steel. WWW.KaBar.com. Does anyone have any experience with the D2? It is expensive but cost isn't necessarily a concern, would rather buy it next month and get the right gear if need be.

I'm working on the ruck, looks like it will be the BH Patrol Pack.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Out

Tim <Tim120Cali@aol.com>
- Friday, September 14, 2001, at 23:15:10 (ZULU)

Hey Sinister Dave...need any SATCOM guys???...Have plenty of 4187's and soldiers ready...SSG

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 00:22:42 (ZULU)

Newbie test and...

My deepest regrets to the brothers and families who lost loved ones in the aggression. For that newest young dude. What?!? Your dad didn't get you a gun for your "BIRTH" day?! I think he needs to get busy.

Gentlemen, I think we all know what to do individually. With quiet professionalism lets go do it. Catshooter, let me know when the cats are ready to fight.

I will be ramping up my goal of getting into the ARNG by December. The recruiter told me that he has never heard of a 43 year old signing with an infantry outfit. OK so I've done alot of ignorant things before this so why stop now.

Pat H

"Give me Liberty or Give me Death"

Pat Henry <PWE@virtualVE.com>
MD, US of A - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 01:45:22 (ZULU)

Looks like the Ozzies and Kiwis have activated the ANZUS (Australia-New Zealand-US) Treaty. It looks like our real friends are standing up to be counted (remember that Jimmy Stewart movie at Christmas, "It's a Wonderful Life"? You may not be sure who your friends are when you don't need 'em, but when you do, it's nice to have buddies).

As for money where your mouth is -- this is from Dick Culver's board:

"JUST SIGNED UP FOR DUTY!

Posted By: Bob in AZ <m1clinicrio@hotmail.com>

Date: Friday, 14 September 2001, at 1:29 p.m.

Called the Arizona National Guard and at the age of 41 I asked to sign back up for duty. I have 10 years prior service and feel it's time to put the uniform back on.

They said YES!

I'm a military Distinguished Rifleman and asked for a small arms training unit if possible. Leaving work now to get my military papers in order.

Just can't watch TV anymore. Never was one to sit on the side line.

SGT. PULTZ"

So, back to Sniper Country. Are you ready? Can you be ready to teach something -- ANYTHING in 6 months (to soldiers or even Boy Scouts who may mature to enlistment or draft age before this is all over -- outdoors skills, land nav, first aid, short-wave radio, etc.)? Do you have the technical background to teach M16 Basic Rifle Marksmanship, or M24 sniping? Nothing fancy, with off-the-rack musketry with out-of-the-box 5.56 and M118, 852, or 118LR.

If you're serious and the country calls, don't be found wanting. If you're old and broken, or not draftable, or medically unqualified, or draft-deferred (clergy, critical national industry, public safety, multiple kids, etc.) there will still be a need.

Don't mean to sound like the prophet of doom, but I was once taught "A realist is a pessimist stripped for combat."

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 02:22:25 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 04:10:59 (ZULU)

Marco, how was B,B, have you noticed it always rains there? I have the 300m Brit range booked for Tuesday morning, still haven't got a hold of any sub sonic ammo, guess there isn't much demand for it here,

Can you guys get BBC parliament coverage, I was watching it on sky this morning, made me sick for a start, they had the house of lords on, they started of with the labour party whimps, they basicaly said that they support the US in any preventetive measures, but not in any retaliation, then a real Lady took the show, Barroness Park of Monmouth, she made a brilliant speach, attacking the Labour party for their blatent lack of spending in Intelligence and Defence, lack of action in national security issues, well she stuck it to em.

Are you aware that Islamic activists have been training for war in Great Britain, The Government have known this for months and have done nothing about it, they where infiltrated and filmed, training how to take down a plane taking off or comming in to land, how to build bombs, small unit tactics,etc, Afgan, Sudanese and a few others, our wonderfull Blair government and the security services have been presented with this information and have sat on their hands, this was also bieng debated in the House of Lords today, don't believe me, call your Senator or MP and ask. I hope Blair can look in the mirror, well he has so far talked the talk, guess we will see if he can walk the walk,be pleased your rid of Clinton, God Bless. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 04:28:23 (ZULU)

Lito, American Express: priceless!

Seriously guys, whats your trick to getting crosshairs vertical/horizontal on the first try?

Now that planes are flying, are firearms O.K. to ship?

There is one in Oregon that needs me ; )

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 05:45:48 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln: You guys faced up to Julius Caesar, Napoleon and Hitler and you'll do fine now. You are the same men you were at Rourke's Drift, Balaclava and Arnhiem. Can't ask for better than that.

(Sorry about the spelling Marco.)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 09:23:25 (ZULU)

Kids,

I GUARANTEE AS SOON AS I HEAR A CALL TO ARMS I WILL ENLIST... This is my country, my generation, and I will be damned if I am going to leave it to you pricks alone to defend, HA!! at one time, I could hit the broad side, eh!!!

KMA

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 10:17:03 (ZULU)

Guys, Word in this mornings "news" that the wise men of WalMart and KMart have suspended sales of firearms and ammunition until 9/21. In other words, your God given rights first must pass muster in Berryville etc before exercising said rights. There is an evil within as well, and I hope and pray these troubled times will cause us to look within. Rant off, just put me over the edge this a.m. that there are folks with that mindset in our great land. Thoughts and prayers to all and God bless.

Seuss <samiam@netrax.net>
USA USA USA, USA USA, USA USA USA USA USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 12:09:29 (ZULU)

Seuss, if you have to run out and buy guns and ammo when something like this happens then you are already far behind the 8 ball. I think this shows everyone that having a little on hand is a good thing.

Personally I think it's a BS move on the part of Walmart and K Mart and another reason to use local gun shops.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 12:57:07 (ZULU)

Buckley with center hit:

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley091401.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 14:00:13 (ZULU)

4-eyes:

Mount your rifle in a cradle or sandbags and make sure it's verticle (a spirit level will do).

Take a white string or parachute cord, and tie a can or plumb-bob to the end. Go down range and suspend from a tree branch. True verticle line (just align your verticle cross-hair parallel). Tighten rings. Voila.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 14:46:22 (ZULU)

CDC, seen you shoot will take you as a spotter. We have the same goal.

I am tring to pull any and all strings to get where I can work with military either as a grunt or an instructor. Lets hope they will take my old fat butt for something useful.

Here is an immediate offer. I am going to contact local ranges and ask for them to donate the ranges to train guys going in the military or who are already in. If I can arrainge this I will offer classes to all who will defend us. The cost will be get your butt there and bring the equipment needed to shoot. I will do this for free.

I urge others with similar backgrounds to mine to do the same thing. Lets get some well trained guys going in so the military does not have to do everything.

Here goes, all in my AO, Central Calif who are going in email me if you want to attend. This is not an offer for guys who are not going in. Letter I may do something similar for the home bound guys but right now its for military only.

Mike Miller

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 17:18:00 (ZULU)

Look at this: It's very strange....

The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11

After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.

119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11

Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11

The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11

I Have More.......

State of New York - The 11 State added to the Union

New York City - 11 Letters

Afghanistan - 11 Letters

The Pentagon - 11 Letters

Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted or orchestrating the attack on the

WTC in 1993)

Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11

Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

Crazy huh??

CR <crscls@poncacity.net>
PC, Ok, USA (By God!) - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 19:07:23 (ZULU)

CDC, the British people of Britain are bye and large 100% behind you all, the British Army, Navy, Airforce and Emergency services are 100% to be relied upon,and so too can old fart, has beens like me, but Blair and his government worry me, you can trust him no more than you guys trusted Bill Clinton, in the UK there is a very large muslim community, thats a lot of votes, there is among them a hard core of extreemists, who have already been causing civil unrest in many towns and cities all year,riots etc, you can bet on more trouble when we get this show on the road,I say we, guess us usetabees won't have much to do with it,but if they bring back the Home Guard, then I'm Dad's Army bound.some one came up here with a knd ciname for bin laden, he is now known here localy as Bin Liner (Brit for Garbage Bag).

on a slightly happier note, I just got a $1600 back payment on the increase in my War Pension,I am wondering what kind of goodies to spend it on and I feel like donating some of it, has any one set up a victims fund over there?

Some of it will go on buying my Marlin CQB (Close Quarter Boar) lever rifle in 450 marlin. Guess the wife will claim most of the rest..Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 19:43:28 (ZULU)

Peter: You'll come through.

CR: Numerology is a simple little game. Pick any event and a number under 20.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 20:10:51 (ZULU)

I just saw a picture of the New York sky line, with a 4 towered World Trade Centre, standing tall above all, with a great big US flag flying from the top, a caption on the picture says " The New World Trade Centre 2005, Fuck You Bin Laden" any body know the fax number for the Afgani government, I'll fax it to the F__ker's. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 20:44:55 (ZULU)

Ref: Walmart Rumor

I just bought a case of shotgun ammo. at my local Walmart and there are still firearms for sale.

nuf said

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:31:08 (ZULU)

Kevin I believe they put guns and ammo back on sale yesterday or Thursday but they did pull it on Tuesday and I believe Wednesday. A guy I work with went to by some .223 Tueasday afternoon and it was a no go. Glad to see they are back to selling it though.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:40:39 (ZULU)

Peter,

Re: victim's fund

United Way and The New York Community Trust have established the September 11th Fund. Your contribution will be used to mobilize resources to respond to the urgent needs of victims and their families affected by these attacks.

More info and a link to contribute online can be found at:

http://september11fund.org/epledge/sept11.cfm

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:43:25 (ZULU)

JC, thanks for the info, I will pass this on also, to all my colleagues, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 21:53:39 (ZULU)

Peter, "..routine..", "..previously scheduled.." huh?

Smile when you bullshit me.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010915/wl/attack_british_egypt_dc_1.html

Seems Iran sealed its border and Pakistan is in 100%. So, unless the Russkies get cute, there will be none of that "Ho Chi Minh Trail" nonsense.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 22:27:40 (ZULU)

Hey CDC, looks like Blair is walking the walk, you guys know we Brits will back you all the way, I still don't trust Blair, he has no backbone, I personaly believe that no one should be allowed to lead a nation when they haven't lead men militairily, Maggy Thatcher is my 1 exception.

I am thinking of starting a collection of Sniper rifles, starting with WW2 Brit and US, any one else got a collection like this? Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 22:53:13 (ZULU)

Greetings Folks,

Seems almost impossible to find flags for sale now a days. I have a stop-gap measure prepared for ya.

One of the readers sent me a request for a new graphic to go along with the Anti-Bin Lauden graphics I have posted on my site. The request was for a printable American ANTENNA FLAG.

Well in response to what we think is a very good request, MemorablePlaces has designed an Antenna Flag that can be cut out, folded over, and either taped or contact papered to your car antenna.

The Antenna Flag can be found at:

http://www.memorableplaces.com/temp/antennaflag.html

More patriotic images (that you can either print out or use as wallpaper or screensavers) are available here:

http://www.memorableplaces.com/temp/wallpaperchoices.html

I have gotten some nice mail about this stuff... Thanks! I even have it on good authority that an unnamed reader has posted at least one of these at the post office.. hehehe Fine By Me!

Feel free to repost the URLs.

Take care,

Charles

http://www.memorableplaces.com

PS: Thanks to the semi-annonymous gentleman who sent me this suggestion...

Charles Of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 22:59:08 (ZULU)

JR,

I know that you chomp at the bit to don the "field gray of the battle force" but you best serve the nation by continuing to produce some of the best barrels in existence. Just my 2 cents.

To my European rosterfarians, I have calmed down and am now in cold focus of the task ahead. I regret my Trident remark earlier in the week and pray that your concerns are eased by the measured and calculated restraint shown by my President.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 23:19:08 (ZULU)

An earlier post needs to be clarified. As the general population goes I'm better than a fair shot, but am pretty average in this company.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 23:27:13 (ZULU)

So where is Marco tonight, the Amsterdam brothels must have turned him out by now? Hey Marco, you still going state side soon, or are you coming to the fatherland to shoot some pigs with me? we'll go to Jockland when they get rid of the Foot and Mouth,

or have you been extended for the duration plus 6 months? Pete.

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 01:09:25 (ZULU)

Guys I have to echo what Pete L said.We are with you on this althuogh there are bound to be some dungbeetles who disagree.My prime minister is a spineless little rodent and not to be trusted.He had better back you guys with everything.

God bless.

G.W

out

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 02:19:32 (ZULU)

Brits support helping "sort things out" by 75%.

You talk funny, but you're all right.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:00:10 (ZULU)

GW, now with a name like that you gotta be of Welsh origin, Do you know of a firm called Serco? they do a lot for your military medical services and range maint' and Adelade busses, I wanted to get down your way to hunt with my cousin Kenny, but he left for a better place before we had the chance, cancer, he did a couple of tours of Vietnam with the Aussie SAS, regards Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:04:18 (ZULU)

'lito,

A brief comment regarding your views of how our government has picked it's friends. (Bin Liner, Iran, Iraq...) There was good reason for those decisions then, good reason that it's happening at this moment, and good reason it will happen in the future.

THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND. but I don't necessarily trust him.

These are relationships of convenience for a common purpose, and nobody settles all differences before entering into them. All the nations of the world that are pledging us their support at this time are not suddenly revealing the love of America they've always held but failed to show. The nations we ask to cooperate with us will not all be our allies when this is done, and we shouldn't feel betrayed when it becomes obvious. If Pakistan helps us crush the entire network that includes Bin Liner and his robots, wonderfull. And when it's done, we'll likely be back to our strained relationship with them, or worse, as we will need them less. Hopefully we'll be grateful enough to reward them handsomely enough that their people actually come to realize America is not evil, and can in fact be a great friend.

Out,

Dale Malony

Dale Malony <drmalony@columbus.rr.com>
Powell, Ohio, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:10:32 (ZULU)

CDC, where did you get the figure of 75% from, I say we deport the other 25% to afganistan, and they can hug trees there, if there are any left to hug when we're done, Pete.

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 03:23:00 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Lt. Chris here and I have just returned home from New York helping the thousands of other brave men and women. I am happy to be home, I am happy my fellow officers are ok, I am however not happy that we couldn't find a single survivor. We did find, as I'm sure you have heard find a few firemen who were lost earlier on in the day. I'm sure most of you would care to hear what it is I walked into about 72 hours ago. I did my best to prepare myself and the rest of the boys and we felt ready but upon approaching the seen and the NYPD letting us past the barricades almost all of us said "holy shit" or "jesus christ". Nothing prepared us for this, not TV, not media, not our worst nightmares. I wish what we saw on no one, a disgrace and utter heartbreak, looking much like WWII Europe on the history channel. One of the boys didn't even make to the rubble when he began crying. Almost of all of us cried maybe not right away but eventually, including myself. It was when with the help of the fire depo of michigan and the FDNY we were able to move a steel beam and under it was a severed arm. We removed the beam and I decided to take a rest as it seemed I needed one, I sat down on the curb by myself as it was slightly beginning to rain and I began to cry like a baby. I cried so hard I began shaking with anger and sadness. I lifted my head to see Anthony a FDNY member and he sat next to me put his arm around me and said "don't be ashamed, everyone here has cried, how can anyone not"? It was at the moment I felt part of something bigger than a police force, I was part of the greatest nation on earth working with the greatest men and women. I was proud, and sucked the tears back up and went back to work. Earlier on today our replacements came from philly and we headed home. When I got home I hugged my mother, father, brother, and girlfriend as if I just came home from 10 years of war. Of course we all get very upset to watch these pictures on TV but it is nothing compared to being there. I'm sorry I'm typing so much here but I feel I have so much to say, and I'm sorry if this sounds at all childish but these are my feelings as I have witnessed. I hope in typing this you feel proud to t itn American, and you will have the utmost faith in your leaders in the decisions they make. Tonight it will be rough to sleep after the horrible images in my mind but know this, we have the bravest and most honorable men and women on our side than we could ever hope for, and if we go to war we will be wrapped in the most secure blanket of safety colored in red, white, and blue.

Bless you all, to the victims and their loved ones.

Bless our country.

and KEEP THE FAITH

Lt. Chris

Christian F <cfenico@home.com>
phila, pa, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 04:52:18 (ZULU)

hey guys,

I need your help. I went down to my favorite gun shop to buy some more bullets and they were all out. No sierra 168's to be found, so being the good guys they are they gave me some 147 fmj bt bullets to hold me over till they can get my bullets in. The proplem I have is none of my reloading books have 147's in them.I use accurate 2520 for my reloading at this time. Can anyboby tell me how to load these bullets......PLEASE........

Well the good news is went down and signed up for the guard today, will find out more about it this week sometime.

THANKS

Michael Odom <darkeru@aol.com>
Salem, Or, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 05:35:38 (ZULU)

Peter L,

Let's see. Great Britain has Maximum Gun Control. Islamic Extreme Bad Dudes. Tony Clinton er... Tony Blair, et. al. Gee. I'm not thinking the Brits are next but watch your backsides anyway.

All,

Can you gentlemen point me in the right direction for the construction of a G-suit. I'll check the archives on my next day off when I'll have plenty of time to read.

Pat H.

Give me Liberty or Give me Death.

Pat Henry <PWE@virtualVE.com>
MD, US of America - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 05:48:48 (ZULU)

Good idea.

"My favorite suggestion came from one reader who said we should rebuild the Towers with the names Freedom and Unity, and let the terrorists figure out what the initials stand for."

Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 06:22:19 (ZULU)

Hypocrite?

Just saw an interview with Tony Blair on CNN. Any of you guys get to see it bear in mind this is the assehole who authorised the release of several hundred CONVICTED TERRORISTS under the terms of the "Goodfriday" agreement. I'm a Britt, and this guy makes we want to puke!

Jonno <endacott@swissonline.ch>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 09:34:08 (ZULU)

Dale: I think it was Palmerson who said, "Britain doesn't have friends, it has interests." Your "...relationships of convenience for a common purpose.." is even better. Your comments about Pakistan make a good point. They see themselves as holding certain interests in common with China that we don't share. And let's not forget that the Chinese characters for 'crises' and 'opportunity' are the same. China can be expected to keep its eye on the ball and that ball is Taiwan.

That was an excellent post. Keep them coming.

Peter: The 75% figure was from a link in Drudge. It was somebody fairly reputable like Reuters, but being a statistician, I realize that any such number is highly suspect.

Lt Chris: You have my deepest apreciation and sincere respect.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 13:56:31 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"I'm old, fat, bald, and damned near intolerable handsome."<

... Lair, lair, pants on fire... you're dog ugly too ;)

CR...

...isn't that what Farakand said about the million (err...150,000) man black march???

JR...

What Bill0294 said... if it get's bad, we're gonna need all the barrel makers we have... Schumer, Feinstein, & Co. put many of them out of businesss... you make them, let others shoot them.

Dale Malony...

>"THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND. but I don't necessarily trust him."<...

... doesn't apply here. Because this has been a situation of "My enemy, and my other enemy are both POS's, and I need to whack them both"... but we were stupid, because we chose one evil to help with another evil... and no matter what your religion is, you don't bed with one "Devil" to fight another devil. Our government has a long history of giving these decisions to political hacks, instead of the people that have been studying international stuff all their lives.

Michael Odom...

Your dealer didn't do you any favor by giving you those POS 147's... they are crap machine gun bullets. If you need 168's, get them through the mail... Go to:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/

or:

http://www.midwayusa.com/

... and about 50 other mail order dealers that have them in stock, and a lot cheaper than the local guy... good load is 44gr Varget, oal 2.825"... work your way up to 46, looking for the usual suspects.

Jonno...

And our last president (clinton) loosed a dozen terrorists on our society, convicted of bombing buildings "4 blocks" from the WTC, so his wifie could get the Puerto Rican vote in New York... where are all those supporting democratic voices now.

-----------------

I spent Thursday down in New York, cleaning and patching guys eyes that had gotten corneal abrasions, and cement and grit in their eyes... these guys were beaten to a pulp, and wanted to go back with a patch on their eye... these guys are made of the same stuff we saw in WW2... you never saw such hard men with such soft hearts... damn good Americans.

A tiny, local radio station started a fund drive on Friday at 8AM, and by 8PM, had over $800,000... everyday people are starting to stand tall and prowd... I think the Tiger is waking!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 14:35:15 (ZULU)

Regarding restraint, and preventing collateral damage: Why is it that we, as Americans, are held responsible for the workings of OUR government officials, and blamed as a people for the failings of a few, but, when speaking of others in countries of a more sanguine mentality, are we to use "restraint" and consider "collateral casualties"? If we, as a people, are responsible for the actions of our leaders, are not the citizens of the country responsible for this heinous act not responsible for theirs? Why the constant double standards? If Almighty God felt it righteous to visit the sins of the fathers on the second and third generation, and to engineer the downfall of Israel and Judah for the transgressions of the leaders and priests, then are we better than He? No. If the citizens of any nation, whatever nation that may be, allow it's leaders to be of a mind to kill, maim and destroy innocent people, then they are just as complicit as those who lived next to Dachau and Auschwitz. Identify, aim, fire. Anyone who steps in the way, too bad.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 15:22:03 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt...

Well said, my man!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 16:25:29 (ZULU)

Question to all:

I am working my way through a jug of IMR 4895, pulled down powder.

I loaded some trial rounds in .308, using 150 gr. FMJBT for testing and initial zero, and 175 gr. MatchKings for grouping(or so I thought).

For the 150 gr. bullet (also military pulldown) I used 42.0 grains. For the 175 gr. I used 41.0 grains. Both loads used Federal Match primers.

With the light bullets, I just ran the cases through the sizer, wiped them down, hit them with the powder measure, and seated a bullet. No special prep, no extra care. I even had mixed cases!! Crimped the crap out of them with a Lee factory crimp die.

The 175 gr. bullets received the full monte--neck turned, cases weighed, primer pockets uniformed and cleaned, bullets weighed, charged hand trickled. Bullets seated in two steps, no crimp. OAL measured exactly. Fired from clean barrel, 1 round every 5 minutes, wet patch with Hoppes and dry after every round for two, three round groups.

The rifle used is an M1A Nat'l Match, with a Kahles 3-12x56 mounted.

So, what's the rub here?

The Match Kings patterned like a shotgun!!!! 3 inch groups, at 100 yards!!

The 150 grain "plinkers"?

.340 to .509 inch groups at one hundred yards.

What gives? Did I do something wrong--or is it that my rifle doesn't like the load?

Thanks,

Eagle

------------------

Happiness is a 200 yard bughole.

Powderman <jjawa3@home.com>
Enumclaw, Washington, United States - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:04:54 (ZULU)

An anti-American company in Florida bans US flags in the workplace and fires employees who are absent to give blood! This company also advertises their services FOR PROFIT to victims of this tragedy!

Click my name for the story.

Hank <hank@vocallect.com>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:44:43 (ZULU)

Along the lines of Mr. Hunt's post.....If it is indeed true that "all that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing", then it is for the "Good Men" of this nation to seek out and destroy that same evil.....lest we be as guilty as those who have done nothing in the past both here and abroad .....and let the "Good Men" of those countries rise up as a terrible scourge along side us against those among them who have comitted this terrible evil.....or suffer the fate of the evil they abide.....For He is indeed "trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored"....We have abided evil far too long, and now it comes to consume us....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:56:08 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

I'm looking for some advice on powder measuring. I currently am loading 308's using once fired Federal match brass, Fed Match Large Rifle primers, Sierra 168 BTHP Matchkings over 41.1 gr of IMR 4064. each powder load is measured by hand and when i do all this right my rifle will shoot into less than 1/2 inch at 100 yrds. the problem is that measuring by hand takes forever. Does anyone know of a pwder measure and powder combination that will work as well and save me what little time I have. I have an RCBS Uniflow powder measure but IMR 4064 isn't the kind that would work well in it. Any help would be appreciated.

Murph

John Murphy <X191145@AOL.COM>
Milford, NH, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 17:59:06 (ZULU)

Gentlemen...........

As suspected, the Senate has given Pres. Bush all authority to find terrorist's responsible for the NYTC, and Pentagon Disasters.

And to bring them to justice.

HOWEVER............

As also expected( The Emperor has no clothes), they WOULD not give HIM the power to do WHATEVER it takes from here forward.......

So, in essence, it's "Business as usual".

And the "Cuff's", are on again.............

Are our Politico's going to EVER learn??.....

Is it going to take a Soviet suitcase in mid Manhattan??

( GOD help us).

I am not happy with this(expected event), BUT,

The ONE thing I am extemely grateful for is that these atrocities did not happen Sept '2000............

Shaking my head.........expecting, and hoping for more.....)):

ALL who have gone into the fray...........my sincere thanks, and gratitude........

Dos Zap

Dos Zapatos <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 19:16:53 (ZULU)

Guys, I have been discussing events with a few Germans today, they feel helpless against terrorism in their own country, they have been kept on such a short leash since WW2 that the general opinion is that they don't have the experience , militairily to hold with the rest of us, but I get the impression that they had the balls to try.

The general sensus of opinion was that the only way to protect a country against Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism, is simply to deport all members of associated religions or race/faith, they would rather deport 50000 inocent people than give oine terrorist a chance to strike, hate to admit it, but, well their is some thing to their arguament..

any one speak Germa?, this is a saying I heard today..

Durch-Laden. Ein-laden. Bin-Laden. Nach-Laden.!!

translated it reads:

Load. Invite. Bin Laden. Re-load. sounds good to me.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 19:35:00 (ZULU)

Sorry, guys. I went from not posting to not shutting up.

Back to lurk mode.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 19:45:22 (ZULU)

Charles the American people arent really held responsible for the actions of your govt,the only culpability, as in this country and most others is letting them get away with the bad stuff.point well made.

powderman, hahahahahaha that shit just happens and finding out why is most of the fun.

G.W

OUT

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
all gave some, SOME GAVE ALL, - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:10:18 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, , - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:10:42 (ZULU)

Bill R,

Great hearing from you.................glad to know your still "close", now, if ONE other could show his ugly mug......YOU know WHO you are.........((:

Sorry, missing your calls, and lost your #.

Dos Zap

Two Shoes <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:20:04 (ZULU)

Evening Americans and other honourable brothers in arms from around the world,

Before i go back to guns and long range talk, i would like to give my 2 cents to this "question" by fellow rosterfarian Charles S Hunt;

"Why is it that we.....are we to use "restraint" and consider "collateral casualties"?

YES, double YES, "we" should use restraint and consider collateral casualties, for isn't THAT what makes us different from them??

Is it not this that makes us the GOOD guys and them the BAD guys?

I believe strongly we should go full force into this new WAR, use what ever force necesary, but direct all this force only to all those responsible for this coward act, and even go beyond that and start a all-out global WAR on all terrorist organisations around the world, so let us around the world unite and destroy/ eradicate these organisations like the Real IRA, the ETA, the Hamas and every one of them who kill innocent civilians, but let us NOT just start blasting away at any and everything, for it will only make us the same as osama bin laden, both fighting for a cause, both not caring about who and how many dies....

"Anyone who steps in the way, to bad"...probably the same words used by the BAD guys when they conceived this plan.

Let us keep our humanity, but show our full wrath and vengenace upon our advisary's.

Bill0294;

Your remarks were a logic reaction to a horrific act of cowards, now that we all have tempered our anger you are wright, we must focus on the task ahead, for it will be a long exausting fight, but we and especially you Americans will winn it in the end.

LT Chris;

Your efforts and those of the many other fire-man and police-officers are well noticed and apreciated, not only in the USA but all over the world, my hat is off to you Sir.

PAT HENRY;

you're wright on the money, it probably is only a matter of time before a target is hit in Europe, the Eifeltower and the EuroTunnel have been discovered on many terrorist wishing-lists, so the papers tell us overhere.

POWDERMAN;

the fact that your rifle grouped lousy with the Matchkings might have to do with the twist of your rifle, if it is a 1-12 inch twist than you should not use bullets heavier than 168 grain, or so i am told...

(not sure though because my own rifles also have 1-12 inch twists and they both shoot great even with 185 grain bullets, but again, this is what i have been told and it might be the case with your stick)

JOHN MURPHY;

I can reccomend the Powder Master Electronic Powder Dispenser (order number 98997) from RCBS highly in conjunction with an electronic scale, works fast and very accurate, seen twice a demonstration and i am going to acuire one myself, but must confess i am still a firm believer that you can't beat the accuracy of a trickler filled cartridge.

Old Bambi and Miss Piggy hunting Peter Lincoln;

Evening ol'chap, i was busy last night, not in the red light district (me wish) but with prepping 200 Lapua cases, for i have a 3,4 and 500 meter competition next saturday.

Duration plus 6 months...me wish again! "Unfortenately" within 2 weeks i will be civilian again due to the new police career, but no way in the world my platoon is going to be send anywhere without me, so i have already arranged it with the powers that be that if it might be the case that dutch troops will be send anywhere i can come back to my "old" job as platoon sarge.

About the US trip, unless WWIII brakes out i do not see why i would have to prospone my trip, so yes, i am still going Stateside, only thing i am not sure about is if i can get my Winnie along with me, with the tightened airport security and all, they are even banning mobile phones and camera's so i guess a .308 stick is totally out of the question...??

When and where will you be hunting miss piggy's? If there is a slot i am in.

Enough wooden shoe mumbo jumbo,

Marco.

Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!"

guess terrorists will get the point...

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
Pride, Honour,Strong,, only one name comes to mind;, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 21:46:11 (ZULU)

Of all the places I've looked on the net, this seems to be one of the most coherent and informed, especially about the military aspects of the future.

With that in mind, I'm turning to you guys for answers to my questions...

The Talian has claimed may times that it has revoked bin Laden's communications tools, including faxes, phones, sat phones, etc. If that's the case, how did the NSA intercept two congratulatory phone calls to bin Laden?

I've done quite a bit of homework in the last few days, including some reading up on Afghanistan. I've read that it is the most landmined country in the world and 200 people a day are injured by mines. Do we really want to put our soldiers into that kind of environment? Seems to me like a land invasion is a bad idea.

I've also read that the Talian are a bunch of ruthless thugs who consider 'justice' gunning someone down in the streets. As such, I wouldn't think the Talian are in good standing with their people. Wouldn't it be wrong to start carpet bombing the whole country and killing people who aren't even sympathetic to the Taliban?

What about the option of backing the Northern Alliance? (read: the enemy of our enemy is our friend)

And I couldn't agree more with 'lito's statement that "we need trained terrorist squads". When are we going to stop trying to fight gurilla warfare with big armies? Personally, I think we should just drop in all our SEALs and other special forces and let them snipe all day long.

God bless america.

-J

James Pennywise <pennywis@theshell.com>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:03:05 (ZULU)

Saudi Arabia and India have told Powell they will support US military actions from their countries. If you don't think that's a big deal, you've never been stuck in the back of a helicopter (older than anyone riding it) over water, at night, in shitty weather, getting an aerial re-fuel, wondering where the pilot and co-pilot finished in their helicopter flight school class.

I agree that our allies aren't necessarily our friends. But a lot of our friends have ante'd up.

Chris, you stand in the ranks of the thin blue line that protects us all. You've seen the results of the hand of evil. We'll need you and will stand by you guys. Have you noticed how people look at cops and firefighters differently this week?

Gents, to get a head-start on training guys to shoot, get with the High Power Rifle Team associated with your state associations (like North Carolina Rifle and Pistol Association and Virginia Sport Shooting Association). You can find your state POCs on the www.ODCMP.com web-site. These are the same civilians who shoot -- side-by-side -- with and against the military teams in competitions across the country.

Collateral damage? Sherman was right -- "War is all hell." You think Americans are concerned about minimal casualty numbers today? I think the twin towers have vaccinated us against that now.

Murph, for 4064 throw your charge from a good powder measure. Throw that into the measuring pan on a good beam scale. Hand trickle the remainder. Put it back in the case. Shoot it.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:15:00 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, , - Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:21:10 (ZULU)

Murph, I basicly do the same as you do now. Finding a powder measure to throw that type of powder as accurate as doing it one at a time is going to be near impossible. Maybe ball powder but not stick stuff. If doing it all at once is too much you can split it up like I do sometimes. First session is decap/necksize, case prep, and prime. Next session is powder and bullet seating. It splits up what can be a long time and seems to feel better for me. Personally I wouldn't trust anything to throw the exact weight each time. I weigh each load of powder myself. It's part of the fun. ;)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Sunday, September 16, 2001, at 23:24:24 (ZULU)

As usual- great advice being passed on what each of us can do- I am focusing on preparing family to handle changes possible to avoid disorientation. Will focus on not depending on services to be provided for them.

Anyone else getting IM's from a des909017 keeps asking for reaction to the attacks but refuses to identify him/herself...

George has my Stealth ready! Training aid for myself and my sons(that is what I sold my wife on anyway!LOL). She learned to use the AR today and I probably lost that one too! :(

Take care.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:06:11 (ZULU)

Looks like Lieutenant General (3-stars) Maude, the Deputy Chief of Staff for Army Personnel (and his Special Forces Captain Aide) is the highest-ranking Pentagon casualty.

I think back in 1986 or 1987, National Geographic Explorer followed a Russian Spetsnaz Company for a few months in Afghanistan. Very interesting film (anyone have any connections with NBC or National Geographic to see if we can get copies, or have it played on the air?).

I swear if you changed the AK-74s for M16s, and the Hinds for Hueys it looked like Ivan's Vietnam.

The difference between the colonial Brits and Russkis and us is we don't want to stay. Crush the roaches and find the next batch, and exterminate them as well.

It doesn't mean much to say "Bomb Afghanistan into the Stone Age." Ivan did that. Lots of refugees headed out now to get out of the way.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:24:55 (ZULU)

LT Chris,

Thanks to you and all like you who gave your time and hearts to help. Dealing up close and personal with burned, dismembered and decomposing fellow countrymen leaves a mark. Did it for a year in a hospital a long, long time ago, and I remember it like it was yesterday.

You have the respect and profound appreciation of all of us, as do all firemen, policemen, EMT’s, and volunteers from all walks who are involved.

For those of you who want to read of yet another American Hero, one whom I had the honor and privilege to know, go to the following address:

http://www.th-record.com/

Click on:

Read Beth Quinn's column at the end of the blurb to read the whole thing.

Remember this woman. She was tough as shoeleather, competent, cheerful, and just a joy to be around and work with. She represents all that is good in this country. We are all diminished by her loss, and enriched by having her as part of this country.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:57:46 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave,

I agree with you when you say,, "We don't want to stay"..

"UN"fortunatly, that hasn't been the case in several of our latest invasions, and some of our old ones. We go in and end up staying there and paying for the a**holes for years. How long will we sit in Korea, Kosovo, Macidonia and others. We'd still be in Panama if it weren't for the treaty signed so long ago (Forgot when it was signed..)

I'd like to see massive force and violence dropped down upon our enemies, where ever they may be..... but don't want our guys on 6 month rotations in the GD sand and mountains of the near east. We are stretched too thin as it is. Someting has to give, and it souldn't be us. I think we should bring our troops home and train for upcoming battles... As hard as they may be.

Peace making is sooooooo much easier than peace keeping.

As always,,, standing behind our troops and in it for the long haul.... God bless all who have worked so hard to salvage the American way of life.

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, Land of Gold and Honey - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 00:59:51 (ZULU)

I've posted many of the images from the past week in our forum if you would like to see them. There are too many to post here and tie up the forum.

Look under the "Images" threads, there are 3 threads right now with about 10 pics per thread.

The images definately say what words cannot.

Click thew blue link.

spectr17 <spectr17@yahoo.com>
Redands, California, US of A - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 01:00:52 (ZULU)

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. I'm currently preparing to go to the New England Police Sniper Symposium and hope to get there before I deploy. Hope to meet some of you there.

Murph

John Murphy <X191145@aol.com>
Milford, NH, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 01:02:29 (ZULU)

Gentlemen............

Interesting read, that is applicable to the topic/s we have been discussing.

A MUST read for you mil guy's.......for your six.

www.worldnetdaily.com

Article:"Is America's Military Ready for War?".

Interview with Ret. Col David Hackworth, and Geo Metcalf.

Dos Zap

Terry <N80762x51@cs.com>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 02:45:09 (ZULU)

I thought you men might like to send some love letters to a guy who has openly praised the attacks on another internet discussion group. His name is Hakan Okur and he said "You are paying for the awful things you did to the American indians and any other peoples of the world in history and you are no more in safety in your stolen continent." Then he spouted something about it being justice delivered from God. His e-mail address is Hokur55@hotmail.com

This came from a listserve discussion board for breath hold freedive spearfishing so I guess he's a diver like me but I don't know where he lives or where he's from.

Marc Soulie <msoulie@home.com>
Thank God, Gore lost, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 02:49:01 (ZULU)

SAVAGE-- That's right, I said "Savage" on the roster;)

Anyone put a M3 LR on top of a 10 FP in .308? What base and rings did you use? I am leaning toward Leupold bases, not sure which yet, and Badger rings.

I am used to just shooting what they issue me, so I am a little hesitant at spending money on something that might not work real well.

Good hunting to those who will use a Unertl on an M40, a Leupold on an M24, or good old iron sights, to "visualize world peace."

All are invited to check out the association. Click my name or go to MarineScoutSniper.com

Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 03:06:23 (ZULU)

Dave wrote: "Have you noticed how people look at cops and firefighters differently this week?"

Dave, we're ALL looking at each other differently this week. It's hard to be rude to someone who would run into a burning building for you. I cried at the words of Charles Schumer and Hillary Clinton!! Until Tuesday I wouldn't even drink "New York Seltzer" and now I have a photo of Manhattan on my desk top. Everyone is so elaborately polite it just warms the heart.

But all are firmly resolved to rap some knuckles.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 04:01:03 (ZULU)

http://www1.chinadaily.com.cn/news/2001-09-16/33507.html

The US Marines Green Seals?? LOL!!!

++++++++

CR: To throw fuel on that "11" fire of yours, go read Psalms 11.

++++++++

From what I'm gathering, carpet bombing, cruise missles, etc., will be pretty ineffective in Afganistan given their population dispursement over a rural area, with the cities still being shelled out from Russia. Most of the populace seems to be indifferent to who's in power, they're miserable now, have been, and aren't seeing any signs of improvement. Killing all of these troden won't help, but we do need to go in and cut out the cancerous cells of terrorists there. Looks like this'll be a ground-war to get the Taliban out of power, and to destroy all of the training camps.

With that as a possible scenario, what is the operational considerations for sniper teams in this environment? Does anyone have good refernces to Russia's experiences? That country has some deserts, and lots of mountains. What are those terrains like? Are the deserts rocky, or sandy? Are the mountains barren, or are they covered in light scrub-brush? Is this going to be similar to our mountainous Western states?

Just trying to get a feel on what our military will be getting into soon.......

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 04:34:35 (ZULU)

I mostly just lurk in the shadows but I have been a constant reader for about a month now and I have read many of the archives and articles. I am an ARMY ROTC cadet and I graduate in a year. I plan to branch Infantry. All my life I have wanted to be in the Infantry and people are always asking me "Why do you want to kill people?" I respond with "I hope I never have to kill anyone. But I understand that my country, family, or friends may need protected." I hope this country does not enter into an extended conflict but if it does I plan on being at the front doing what I can to keep everyone with me alive. I hope God protects all those who may be asked to defend our nation and and those who seek retribution for the acts of terrorism committed on our country.

Now comes the question. I am part of the RECONDO company at Kansas State University, it is a highspeed (compared to the rest of ROTC) activity that works towards developing confident competent leadership in the ROTC program. In the program we teach squad tactics beyond the level taught in the class room. We usually do a class on sniping and the use of snipers as a force multiplier. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find manuals or written experience on the offensive and defensive use and deployment of snipers? I am also looking for a short definition of a wartime sniper, in other words fill in the blank "A sniper is _________." Also is anyone in Ks willing to teach a deer hunter (we have to wear blaze orange here and anymore you only need to step out of the car and wait 5 seconds before you see a deer, not real hunting but it is food) how to do some real (tactical/sniper) shooting.

thanks

drew

Andrew Kennedy <ark4194@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, Ks, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 05:00:41 (ZULU)

Guys I heard on the news at lunch time that osama bin of shit has exfilled the village he had been camped in and is now in a "secret location" with his four wives,kids and feral followers.The hunt is on.

I also heard that dubya and other politicians are wondering wether to abandon the no asassination policy.wtf? They asassinated randy weavers kids, why get all touchy feely about a bunch of feral scum who murdered thousands of civilians?

Wake up Mr Pres,stop f#*#*ing around and get into it.

Wild Bill damn good to see you back.

Wouldnt it be somethin to put a team together from this board.The mind boggles.

Pete L I cant recall hearing of that company, the adi contract out a heap of work these days,good job gets done but it has potential tactical ramifications that worry me.If you ever get down this way look me up.

Just heard the Taliban are preparing for a holy war with the U.S and Pakistan if Pakistan sides with the U.S.Peasants,dangerous peasants.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 08:39:52 (ZULU)

"But all are firmly resolved to rap some knuckles"- cdc

Just keep watching that edumacational tee-vee of yours bud! ;-)

Off to another fun day with little round mirrors, and Jersey walls too!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, U - S - A!!!!!!!!!!!!- - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 08:53:31 (ZULU)

Gavan Willis wrote:

____"I also heard that dubya and other politicians are wondering wether to abandon the no asassination policy.wtf?"

The President can rescend that executive order in five seconds.

____"Wake up Mr Pres,stop f#*#*ing around and get into it."

Old fighter pilots can be trusted play heads-up.

We'll do fine.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 11:54:28 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 13:29:07 (ZULU)

Bill, we are sure to revisit the issue you raise when these people are dead. Let's keep our eye on the ball.

Leslie: I read that they are part of "The Special Services Group." Special Services are tasked with entertaining the troops, aren't they? Marine Green Seals who sing and dance. What a country.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 14:06:33 (ZULU)

LT. CHRIS: Thanks, my Brother. Proud as hell of you.

PAT HENRY: Damn son, what a handle !!! Great name.

My Mom (4'11", auburn hair, full blood Irish) used to tell me during my wild ass teenage years "Son, I'll fight with you but I'll also fight for you". Meaning, she would whip my ass if I needed it but she would also be the first one to my side if someone crossed me. I'm a newbie here but it seems DR is kinda like that. We may argue and infight some but in the end we're all on the same side.

My partner (SNIPER, SWAT cop, Homicide Dick) said this morning they should just turn us Coonasses (Cajuns) loose in Afghanistan and tell us it's illegal to shoot 'em. We'd have 'em cleaned out in a couple of days. "Hold my beer, I'll shoot this un from the truck" Hee Hee !

Great to see a President with a nutsack.

Hope all you DR boys are well.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 14:16:14 (ZULU)

Rosterfarians...

Ken Hunter's Wife (aka "The Major"), is going in for surgery because of the horse thing... those of you that believe in prayers, please ad her to the list... those of you that don't believe... pray anyway, cuz I said so!!

Shoes...

Good article from David Hackworth... if you put all the pieces together, clinton set the stage for this.

Mark...

You said Sav-xxx, and Leupold in the same post??? Badd. You must use tapered bases for the M3-LR, and Leupold doesn't make them... try Baer bases (via Lightforce). Badger might make a tapered base for the "you know what" rifle ;)

GW...

The thing about asassinating "enemy heads of state" in not a policy that the Pres an just decide to "change"... it is law (by Executive order, and backed up by a few others) in this country, and in order for him to send in the tunnel rats to take this garbage out, we have to have congress change the law... I think it will be a "Go". And I think it will STAY a go, after this is all over.

In the news...

"It is being widely reported that the Brazilian parliament has voted 234 for, 6 against to allow passengers on airplanes to carry firearms"... our Gov should be as smart.

'yote Bate...

Damn glad to see you back. STAY BACK, you ol' booger ;)

>"The truth is.. our cowardly politicians of the time did this hoping to protect themselves. It worked for them! "<

You got it right... but it didn't work for America... A friend said that one of the reasons that we take the military so lightly in this country, is because we've never had a war on our own soil... well it's time to get back to basics.

You wanna have a real nightmare... Imagine that there were 700 less Republican votes in Flordia, and that "lyin' al gore" was in the White House now!

CatShooter

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 15:25:13 (ZULU)

Rumors and questions.

Rumors? Heard at a match last weekend that Remy is contracting with S&W for making receivers. Can anyone comment? Is this S&W making receivers for Remy or Remy making stuff for S&W?

Has there been any research in ultra-light precision weapons? A Titanium receiver, lw bolt, carbon-fiber wrapped bbl rifle would weigh considerably less for hauling around. I know the drawbacks are increased felt recoil, etc. but face it, a SWS gets carried a hell of a lot more than fired. Also, what about Ti for scope bases/rings? Are there any properties of Ti that make it unsuitable for some of these purposes, ie brittleness, not taking color etc.? I see Remy has a Ti 700 on the market now (not w/the carbon fiber bbl though). Anyone have any hands-on with one?

RE Powder measures. There's a behomoth called the Prometheus. I've seen used and know D. Tubb has used. It's not your everyday measure, as it has a scale (beam typ) employed to weigh each charge for you. Not cheap though. A little faster than hand weighing, probably only worth the cost if you're doing a sh^tload of ammo or make a helluva lot more $ than a GI...

175's in a 1:12. Sometimes. Try 168s and keep it as a medium range gun if 175s won't produce. When (if) you wear the bbl out (Could be a few thousand or more rounds, less if you screw it up cleaning it!) ge a 1:10 or 1:11 and try again.

Outta here,

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 15:34:00 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 16:56:02 (ZULU)

Caison,

Tubb has two of those. the Canadian Palma team has a pair. :))

I have one.

They ain't fast. A measure, beam scale, and trickler are faster but nowhere near as accurate.

They are accurate as hell, and yes, measuring to the nearest 1/100th grain does make one hellova a noticable difference if you are already a good shooter.

They are expensive.

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:13:54 (ZULU)

I have no idea what these Green Marine Seals are but in checking some overseas sites it appears the 82nd and 101st are in the Punjab region of Pakistan. Sounds like a good Physop title though. "Green Marine Seals"

Check out: www.debka.com

Also sent some emails to the FAA, i'm curious about the Sky Marshall program. Seems like it could be an angle for some of the FOG's that can still shoot those 1911's.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:23:39 (ZULU)

TonyY,

Will you post the "Sky Marshall" info when you get it? I hope all is as well as can be with everyone.

Ken H.,

Best wishes and prayers for the Major.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:32:08 (ZULU)

Question...

Who else is dancing in the streets, besides the terrorsts, and their followers all over the world???

Answer...

Gary Condit!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:54:42 (ZULU)

Hi all,

Not to be critical or anything but a word of caution. Due to the situation, I would think it would be wise to observe some communications security. I've seen some posts regarding troop movement and placement. Is this a wise thing to post on the net?

On Assaultweb.net and subguns.com we have banned any posting of such information until this crisis is over. Opinions?

Mike

BCR #226 <michaels226@hotmail.com>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 17:56:25 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:08:37 (ZULU)

Ref: OPSEC

I doubt that there is anything we could divulge here that would be of value to the enemy. However, I feel that observing OPSEC here would be in good form and I would support the idea.

It is hard to listen to the call "boots & saddles" and know that you're not on the team.

Good Hunting.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:28:21 (ZULU)

Hog's - here is proof I can type

"Open to letter to the Prime Minister of Canada, the Right Honourable Jean Chretien.

Dear Sir,

I am writing this letter to capture the thoughts surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001.

I emplore you to commit the entire might of the Canadian Forces to American, NATO and worldwide efforts to seek out and destroy those responsible for the terrorist attacks that day and other who would do the same.

To do so will require ground troops - Infantry from Canada (PPCLI, RCR and R22eR) this is the only way to minimize damage to the civilian populace, and show our resolve in the face of adversity. While our Army is not fit to a high intensity conflict - we are equipped and trained for the sort of activities likely to be found in Terrorist host Nations - limited direct action (DA) raids - airborne and airmobile insertion to identify and destroy terrorist training camps - as well as peacekeeping/making in the host nation and humanitarian efforts to the host nation populace.

Those who point to the strain on our soldiers, should look into our past - the soldiers who forged our Nation in the First and Second World wars. Members of the CF are paid to defend our country, and our allies - conscionable we can do no less.

Kevin Boland"

who is in EVIL KEV mode

Kevin - of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:29:24 (ZULU)

Mike: The troop movement stuff so far has been pretty funny, but point well taken. I won't comment on it.

All: I talked to a VERY intelligent Russian today. He says that the Russians can be expected to behave in thier own self interest and that doesn't include screwing us. The Chinese are crafty bastards, but thier situation is similar. India too.

That is a four way confluence of interests. Sounds like a deal to me.

Pakistan is another matter. That government is very shaky at very best. They have nukes. Isn't that charming?

I wonder what Sadaam did in all those CBR labs after Clinton slunk away from the inspection regieme. We may be about to find out.

And my earlier number was wrong. There are 1,200,000,000 (1.2 BILLION) Moslems. I've read thier poets and theirs is a subtle and profound religion. Let's treat them with respect.

"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of thier women."____Conan the Barbarian (He stole that from Ghengis Khan.)

Ta ta...

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:29:30 (ZULU)

Chiming in,

Now I know some of you guys think everything about everything is and can be found on the web. That may or may not be true. I nearly started a war of my own right here with that one as a FNG Rosterferian.

But ask yourself this question: Do I want to be the one who gives up information that some psyco/Terrorist/Kid who hates his Dad (who may not know that info yet and wouldn't have known until YOU told him) can use that may eventually get one of my people killed ?

Didn't think so.

Bad guys surf the web.

Stay safe, Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:38:08 (ZULU)

Quote from Sgt. Dad, "That little roughneck (GWB) can go from southern gentleman, to redneck rampage in 2.5 seconds!

'Yote bate, welcome back. I was getting a headache going from here to "Long Range Hunting" and back, just to hear your words of wisdom ; )

Sinister, have you noticed firemen and cops are looking at themselves differently lately.

Refugees fleeing Afghanistan...taking tango's with them.

Marco, It looks like your "skills" may be used more frequently in LE than in the AF.

Catshooter, military lightly... Sgt. Dad agree's, but he didn't think it would happen this soon.

BriaN Sain, I always said all it would take to get the terrorists, smug drugglers etc. in the US, is to put their pictures on huntin' tags and charge $5.00 a piece for them.

CDC, we agree once again ; )

Before Tuesday I didn't want to travel to the east coast to check out the monuments, museums etc. because of how I percieved to people the last time I was there. I guess their like M&Ms hard on the outside, sweet on the inside ; )

American people held responsible for leaders:

We choose ours, most places the people have no choice as to who their leaders are or what they do.

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
origional, Indian Country, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:39:22 (ZULU)

I found a private range here in South Texas that I may join. Where I can shoot out to 500 yds. I was wondering if anyone has suggestions for a 223 load. Should I use the 69 or 75gr Boolits? I'm guessing 75 would be best.

Also, can someone recommend a good book on sniping? Info on training, not an I was there heres how I did it type book.

Thanks

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:40:42 (ZULU)

I see your points on the commo security. Everything posted so far is public knowledge coming from web sites. Take it for what it's worth.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 18:44:48 (ZULU)

Has anyone had any experience with the Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x40 Mil Dot scope? Mils are accurate at 12x.

Eugene Harris <hisncinc@gte.net>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 19:05:22 (ZULU)

Warriors,

Food for thought, intercepted from west coast:

Prof. Frederick lung

Visiting Professor of Law

University of California

Hastings College of the Law

Dear Friends, The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.

Gary T.

Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:

l’ve been hearing a lot of talk about “bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.” Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but ‘we’re at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do” Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we “have the belly to do what must be done.”

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I’ve lived here for 35 years l’ve never lost track of what’s going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I’m standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They’re not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997, Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think “the people of Afghanistan’ think ‘the Jews in the concentration camps.” It’s not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don’t the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they’re starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan—a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the

farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that’s been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They’re already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today’s Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They’d slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don’t move too fast, they don’t even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn’t really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban–by raping once again the people they’ve been raping all this time

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of “having the belly to do what needs to be done’ they’re thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let’s pull our heads out of the sand. What’s actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden’s hideout. It’s much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we’d have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I’m going. We’re flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that’s Bin Laden’s program. That’s exactly what he wants. That’s why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It’s all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he’s got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that’s a billion people with nothing left to lose, that’s even better from Bin Laden’s point of view. He’s probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Does anyone else?

********

How many of the 1 plus mill Islamic followers are going to side with the extremists (Bin & Taliban) if we go after them & the immediate followers? Perhaps the scores of true Islam believers will be civil ??

out

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
Kenosha, WI, US of A - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 19:31:32 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

Knew they were slow, expensive and accurate, but didn't know they were THAT accurate. Talked w/Tubb in Raton a couple years ago about them. Too rich for my blood- at least until I can't think of any other toys I want first.

Where in Tx? I used to be in NM, shot all over eastern NM and a couple in Tx.

caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 19:51:55 (ZULU)

I don't know if you all would be interested, or if its been posted before, but I found an interesting book called, "On Killing" by LTC Dave Grossman. It deals with "The psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society". Author makes some interesting points as well as tells of some non-politically correct late 50's psycological experiments.

Also, what do you all think the max effective range would be for the 223 on thin skinned bi-ped targets?

Shot out,

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 20:03:16 (ZULU)

Caison;

Ref. titanium rifles,

i saw one when i was at Menke, a german rifle builder, besides the barrel and the stock the rest was totally made out of titanium, and it was indeed very light, but Menke told me it was a pain in the ass to work on Ti, thus making it more expensive because of the more man hours he had to put in such a rifle, was the reason why he only had built one sofar, guess the costs and the fact it probably kicks like a mule is the reason why there are not so many around.

Peter L;

Interested in the new Leatherman Wave tool? Can get them for you for just 170 DM, about 160 Dm cheaper than in any shops...

Steve D;

ref. books,

Ultimate sniper by Major Plaster comes to mind, the military and police sniper by mike r lau and i also like sniper I and II by Mark V Lonsdale which came reccomended by Andy's Dad.

All hear about the fact that Osama bin laden was trading shares from insurance companys wright before the terrorist attack??

Talk about trading with insight...

If that not makes him guilty as hell than what will...

Deputy Doug;

Hear Hear!

Besides the Pakistan remark (they are on US "side" as we now know) this fella is wright on the money.

Gonna be on national tv tomorrow, walking in front of the dutch Queens carriage with my unit, gonna be a sober event in respect to the US victims, no ceremonial uniforms, no marches, no bands, just the Queen and 100 of us red berets. (yearly event, kinda like the British opening of parliament)

cya around,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 20:07:51 (ZULU)

DEPUTY DOUG: I spoke with Dr. Martin Fackler and numerous others on your question concerning overpenetration with MK 168s and 175s. I got a multi-faceted answer (which I expected). The bones in the side of the head are thinner and a through and through shot here would naturally offer less resistance than a frontal shot where the bone is thicker. How far that bullet travels after a solid hit is up for debate. Unfortunately, not many hostage takers will allow one to put a chronograph behind his head while you take your test shot. It is extremely difficult to replicate real live shots on human beings in a controlled environment for obvious reasons. Common sense stuff.

I sent out a blanket question on another site. Not many PDs are using the 175. They didn't cite reasons but I believe it is simply because the 168 works at typical LE distances and if it ain't broke . . . Also for years, it was the only match loading available in a factory round. Further, not many police snipers even know of the 175. Most cops aren't gun nuts. They don't collect guns or think of guns as things of beauty. 99% do not have a competitive shooting background. They use what they are issued and learn along the way. If there is no one to teach them of a 175, how would they know? Besides, knowing the ballistic coefficient of a 168 vs 175, "rotational this" or "transsonic that" really has no bearing at 100-300 yards. Before everybody starts screaming FOUL, I concede, someone calling himself a professional Sniper needs to know all he can of his craft. But, Policemen don't have/aren't given the time and money to train like they should. Every Police Sniper I know bitches because he doesn't get to shoot and train enough. But, they don't neccessarily HAVE to know a lot of those things to do what is expected of them at normal POLICE distances. For example: A carpenter uses a hammer. He may not collect hammers or know the force required to strike with it or who makes fifty different kinds of grips for the thing. But tell him to drive a nail and he does it. Am I making sense ? I once asked Gunny Hathcock "What is the best rifle" He told me "Son, I don't build 'em I just shoot 'em. Get someone who knows what he's doin' to build you a good stick and practice, practice, practice". Made sense to me.

However, back to your question, everyone concedes that the 168 BTHP isn't the best thing for intermediate barriers. So, maybe it is kinda broke. Many rounds already fit the bill better than the .308 for a Sniping round. We have the technology for newer better rounds for Sniping and Sniping itself has matured somewhat. Several different limited penetration rounds are in the works. None have been proven to any extent as far as I know. There will have to be extensive testing and proven use of the things before LE will accept the liability of using ANYTHING these days. Because of the liability with such things, agencies are perfectly glad to let SOMEONE ELSE test it before they try to be a pioneer. The .308 has been around forever. Because of people like those on this list who have the time and money to experiment, we know a LOT about it. That helps the cops / soldiers in the long run. For now, I would suggest testing different rounds 168, 175, Fed Tact., TAP and whatever else you think might suit your needs. Do your own testing and document same. You may have to carry different rounds (color code 'em) for different mission requirements until the "Perfect Sniping" round is invented. Who knows when that will be. That's what the rest of us are doing anyway.

Several friends detailed shootings they were involved in when I posed your question. To a man they used Fed 308M 168. I got a different response for each question. Some guys made shots on running suspects. Some made shots on stationary suspects. Head and body shots. With and without hostages. Through intermediate barriers and open air. Some shots exited and did not travel much farther. Some went through glass, the bad guy's head, out the other side of a car and through two sides of a garage. Yada, Yada. Some bullets stayed pretty much intact and others came apart. The only clear thing gleaned is that one would probably be in danger of an overpenetration injury if you were behind the bad guy's head when the round exited. Duh. What a revelation. Again, common sense stuff.

I am currently working on an idea/project with a forensic anthropologist to provide an accurate test medium for such endeavors. The coming world situation would provide an adequate test bed however, I don't think there would be much study time.

It has been said that a soldier trains and trains to someday fight

. . . A cop fights and fights to someday train.

I hope I was of some help. I probably wasn't. I'm just a dumb ole squirrel hunter any damn way.

Watch your six, Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, I hoember 17, 2001, at 21:10:22 (ZULU)

Eugene; that's a pretty fair scope! There are a lot worse around.

4I's; good to hear from you again my man! I just couldn't keep it down. A sniper just has so much tolerance for peace and quiet!

Doug' really, we will probably find ourselves in a war of liberation if we go in that hell hole. Our objective (target) will be hard to find. Our point will be made however. They are probably already in flight. A man with 200 Million can get pretty scarce. So far we haven't found one bomber in an American Mountain range. To kill wasp you destroy their nest! But you don't crawl into it with them.

Powder Measure's; I get about an accurate a throw out of that little Lyman adjustable. It out performed the RCBS in that respect for me. You have to set the sliders just right and it gets quite close but there's no good way to throw powder accurately and know it without weighing every charge.

500 yards is a good range for .223's. A lot of good work has been done by those who would stretch this excellent little cartridge farther but gee, I think it's best kept below 600. I had best luck with 69 gr. but it depends on the barrel twist.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, , - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 21:21:32 (ZULU)

"When I take action," he said, "I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt. It's going to be decisive."___G.W. Bush to New York Senators Schumer and Clinton

Talked to another real smart Russian fella. Hell of a lot smarter than me, anyway. He called his mother in Moscow on the 12th. She said that all the people on her bus were sobbing. These bastards are a bigger nuisence to Russia than they are to us and the Russkies would be delighted if we exterminated them. He says that he absolutely does not see Russia scewing us on this one.

Pablo: That's just what I heard about rescinding that stupid 'we don't assasinate leaders' rule. I'd be prepared to bet you that President Bush wouldn't be too fussy about sticking to the niceties, at the moment.

Deputy Doug: Your Professor Iung should be read very carefully by one and by all. We have been handed a war that we didn't want. I'm agnostic but I'm going to start praying fervently that we don't get into a goddamned Jihad with a fifth of our brothers and sisters in the human race. But I'm not willing to share this planet with the vermin who hit those innocent people.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, September 17, 2001, at 22:00:57 (ZULU)

I use (and love) the Prometheus powder measure.

Had to make some minor mods for large stick powders, but the unit spits out about 300 excellent loads an hour. My experience is limited, but I consider it to be the fastest powder measuring device that I've used.

The mods amounted to an AC to DC power supply (1.5VDC) that powers the Midway trickler and the very tiny (out of balance) motor that is epoxied to the dump funnel. This motor is from a pager and when powder drum is moved to the dump/initial refill position (mercury switch attached), the powder appears to be "sucked" into the awaiting case. Powder that is dumped into the funnel is very hard to see. This eliminates any worries and allows total concentration on the balance pointers.

Don't get here often these days, but good to see that Bill R. is still kicking.

Best to all.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SE, IL, USA - Monday, September 17, 2001, at 22:29:27 (ZULU)

OPSEC!

Just some info to ponder ...I was asked yesterday by a SOCOM officer to not comment on or post any further speculation concerning upcoming impending military operations.

Even though a lot of us are no longer in the military, we once had the tickets and experience that lend a great deal more credence to our "speculation" than the average person. In the interests of security and in the safety of our precious warriors, join me in refraining from any further speculation and commentary on targeting and military options exercised against the worldwide terrorist networks.

Be safe. Be smart.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 00:15:54 (ZULU)

Here, what about this for mind games . . . . .

Have EVERY Allied fighter aircraft that wants to play fly over all major Afghanistan cities at say 500ft above the ground. Then every 15 minutes have one kick on their afterburners and break the sound barrier. That concussional force every 15 minutes should elevate spending the money on bombing the place.

"We'll stop when we get Bin Laden! OK????"

DJ Bolinski <david@proserv.microserve.com>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 01:08:46 (ZULU)

Gents,

Some of you are probably wondering why "Sir Wes" has been quiet lately, in view of the last weeks events...

First, I'm as ticked as the rest of you. Perhaps more so, if that is possible. I tend to take these things VERY personally. These losses effect me almost as much as if I had lost one of my Marines...

While speculation is good, it is just that. I support our current administration 100%. What G.W. told Schumer and Clinton is dead on...that was their style. Look like we did something decisive and smile smuggly. While the rest of the world is laughing. Payback this time is going to be up front and personal. If I read my seeing Collin Powell in Uniform, at the National Cathedral, as an indicator.

We couldn't have a better team in place, IMHO.

Bill indicated that most of us have a clearer picture of what is happening because we've been there or in similar situations. I agree. Let's not give the bastards any ideas or clues about what we are up to until the action is taken.

Finally, lets support those in our own county through prayer and any other way we can. Give blood, money, time...whatever.

Let's pray for those responsible...that they get what they deserve...;-)

This attack was at America. They missed by a mile, because America is not about money or buildings. It is an ideal that is carried in the hearts and minds of all of us. As long as that exhists and there is one of us to "carry the torch" America will exhist and prevail.

God Bless and Semper Fidelis,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 01:40:14 (ZULU)

I haven't read the 'Roster' yet for today, but just received this from the NSSF (national Shooting Sports Foundation).

· AIRLINES FIREARMS TRANSPORTATION REGULATIONS STAY UNCHANGED FOR THE MOMENT . . . With heightened security concerns following the September 11 terrorist attacks, strict new airport and airline security procedures are being instituted across the nation. Among the new measures travelers will encounter include a ban on carrying any cutting instruments on board aircraft. This includes even the smallest of pocketknives. Knives may be transported only in checked baggage. For hunters, and sportsmen traveling with firearms, the FAA has not issued any new restrictions yet. The basic requirements still apply. All firearms must be declared, and must be unloaded and secured in a lockable container. It is advisable to check ammunition in separate baggage. Travelers are advised to contact their specific airlines well in advance of any flights to ascertain the company’s individual requirements and recommendations. To further assist the flyer, our friends at Safari Club International have created an on-line resource, which contains timely information from the United States FAA, Department of Transportation, Air Traffic Control System Command Center as well as notices from many airlines. To view go to www.safariclub.org

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:01:06 (ZULU)

Gents,

If it's OK with you I'm going to break with tradition and post something about RIFLES!

I love my Stealth .223, but am thinking of selling it. The reason is that I want a "mirror image" of my M40A1 and Chandler 6.5 X .284. That way I'm training using the same equipment.

Any of you have a recommendation for good .223 barrels. I've used Krieger, Hart, Shilen, Douglas Premium(air-gauged)XXX, and Obermeyer.

My choice will always be Obermeyer, but frankly the chance of getting a .223 barrel from Boots is right up there with the second coming of Christ. I'll probably go 1:8" or 1:9" twist. Comments? Will use 69-77 grain projo's...

Scope, still to be determined, but probably a Loopie or may give U.S. Optical a try.

Your thought and comments are solicited.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:07:52 (ZULU)

Bill0294: Roger that.

All: This thing has my mind racing and I'm using up bandwidth venting. This energy needs to be burned up doing something useful like helping these fine kids learn to use these little black rifles. All us old farts would give anything to be able to do more, but that's going to have to be my contribution. I've tried to go back into lurk mode before. This time I'll try harder.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:08:43 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Check this out

______————********O********————______

THIS WEEK'S FEATURED SITE

Provisions in three separate presidential executive orders -- Section 5(g) of Executive Order 11905, Section 2-305 of Executive Order 12036 and Section 2.11 of Executive Order 12333 -- ban the United States government from engaging in efforts to assassinate enemies of our country. The acts of war committed against our countrymen on September 11, 2001 by faceless cowards of the nation of Islamic terror require that President George Bush rescind these bans immediately. Please link to the page below and sign the petition urging your representative in Congress to call on President Bush to issue an executive order repealing the prohibitions on assassinations and immediately pass H.R. 19 -- "The Terrorist Elimination Act of 2001."

Visit -- http://www.libertypetitions.com/petition.html?name=terror

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:12:33 (ZULU)

Eugene Harris...

>"Has anyone had any experience with the Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x40 Mil Dot scope?"<

I have one when they were made by Bausch & Lomb... I guess the Bushnell is the same... An excellent scope with some of the best optics I've seen, it is BLINDINGLY sharp... BUT. They have a total of 26 moa of elevation from top to bottom, and in the average set-up, you will lose half of that.

If you put on Leupold QRW bases, and then get medium height Burris "Signature "ZEE" rings, and get the shim kit, you can have most all the elevation as "UP", and it is enough to take most cartridges out to 800 or 900 yds. That's the set-up I have on my .223 M70 Custom Sharpshooter, and it's great. Also the calibrations take a bit of getting used to, they are 1/8 moa clicks, a hash mark every two clicks, and a number every 4 clicks, but the numbers count the hash marks, not the moa... so if you go one moa up from "0", you are on #4, not "1", or "8"... not a problem, as you just mark up your range notes in whatever it says, and go with it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
One shot, one towel!!, - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 02:52:47 (ZULU)

Ref the enemy of my enemy...

Some interesting reading at http://pakistandefense.50megs.com/

Getting into the nest with the hornets???

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
Kenosha, WI, US of A - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 03:30:48 (ZULU)

Bill W. greetings, OM glad to see you too! You must have heard me say .223 is a 600 yarder. For the Record that don't go for this ole rifleman gents! He sights em in about 800. I thought about you when I said that Bill, I could see the smile on your face.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, , - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 03:42:44 (ZULU)

TonyM:

Well, I guess THAT'S a shooting post!

Hnak <hank@vocallect.com>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 03:44:08 (ZULU)

ok anyone try to suck up info off this site...with great God Bless America..dont tread on me or i'll make u really hurt kinda classy people here's some top rate info for you...pull the grenade and throw the pin

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 06:17:43 (ZULU)

Hogs,

I ralised something last night, after switching off and in bed, ready to fall asleep (this morning actually). Though I've communicated with some in private, I never actually posted my thoughts here. I posted Michale from Australia's the other day, but not my own!! :-(

First of all my apologies for that - I was so shocked at this, and as I say writing/responding to some in private, it completely went past me. My wife couldn't believe it last week when I just came home, swithed on the TV and sat there watching this all unfold some two hours after the first impact.

Bruce/Brian/others who lost ones due to all this, my herat-felt condolences, and may God be with you and lead your guys in this time of loss.

Andy's dad, has uncle Mike been found, or contacted you yet? Or...?

Those called up to the line - God bless, and may He protect you, and guide you - and your bullets.

Lt Chris, strength to you, and your fellow officers and firemen, and all other rescue personnel, and thanks for sharing your experience and pain with us. Let me say that I do not think it is childish at all - it shows a man of character who can do his work, yet weep for those in pain.

To all of you in the United States, especially those closer to all this, our condolences. You are in our prayers, and we pray that God will help that those who did this, and all those who supported them, are brought to justice. And by justice I do not mean to sit in a prison and plan and direct more such attrocities.

God Bless!!

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 07:04:33 (ZULU)

Ref: Uncle Mike

I made contact and Mike's ok. He was on his way to a meeting at the RSA Embassy when the attack happened. He saw the site a few minutes after impact. Business is picking up at his end.

Ref: Other Threads

I just read this thread.

http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/Forum138/HTML/000031.html

I don't know what to think.

Ref: Change in Plans

Any of you guys going to the SP Shoot in Texas be advised the bridge to the island is out....new lodging plans will have to be made.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, September 18, 2001, at 11:44:34 (ZULU)

Wes..

Just catching up on the DR, still in the process of moving so am way behind the curve. I do get to build an new and improved loading room in the basement though this winter so it won't be so bad.(HA)

I caught your question on the .223 barrels and thought I would share my experience with you on them. I have only had two, one was a Douglas and the other was a Pac Nor.

The Douglas shot everything into a .5 average and was not particular about any load, be it hand load or factory. I never seen a barrel do that before. The Pac Nor shot really well but was more fussy with loads than the Douglas. It would shoot its favorite load into a little hole but a