Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 2000

Is it me or does Justin Potts' posting look like he is another gun totting homophobic on a rant who is loosely vailed in, Hooray for us sharpshootin tough guy suit, B.S. artist?

Just the sort of crap the Liberal left, million mom marchers want to see. This way they can point their fingers and shout, see thats what we are against. Rather than showing ourselves as intelligent, responsible, voting members of society, we get Kevin: OOps I mean Justin.

If the Justin's of the world are more concerned with the sexuality of some kid who wants to join the Scouts and learn some of the great things Justin did and then take those things the Scouts taught him out and apply them to making the world a better then maybe we should be having a million citizen march on DC and demand tolerence in our society. Something by the way is a constitutional right. Like The right to keep and bear arms or speak freely (no matter how ignorant the content). Hey Justin. It seems to me one of the lessons I learned in Scouts was to judge my fellow man/ woman for what they had to offer not what they do in their own home. Which if you read your own posting, you yourself suggest we have no right to comment on.

As a man who has 3 children who may or may not join Scouts I worry that they will encounter guys with skinned heads and swastikas on their arms. A circumstance that could easily become fact if prudent citizens and ADULTS don't police the "Private" organizations.

Oh, and let me take one last shot. Justin, If you are a long time reader of this site; why would you jump in here with a load of garbage to post, no coherent argument, and the audacity to tell the population of regulars to "F*@& off." And if you were a regular reader you would not have started off with "I am 19 and I......blah blah blah. HEY........! IS YOUR NAME KEVIN? C'MON YOU CAN TELL US ITS OK!!!!!

Stay in your playpen kid. When your old enough to drive that "71 Vette, give us a call.

WOW. Sorry gang that stuff has a way of flippin my scope covers.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
An educated place in America, NY to be specific, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 00:18:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

OH and Just or Kevin who ever you are. Take a look at the Statement to Minors and Militants, there are several sentences and paragraphs that would have (if you had taken them to heart) kept you from making yourself an easy mark for guys like me.

Learn the rules of engagement before you attempt to play. You'll live longer.

Playing Hard!

Mars <>
Yupstate, NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 00:25:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

>> Hey guys,

I have been shooting the Federal 168 gr BTHP and have gotten great groups at the 100 yds. I also was getting great groups at 600yds. I have tried the Hornady 168 gr match also but did not like it as much. The groups looked like I was shooting OO buck at 25 yds.
Craig <>
Rifle, CO, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 00:27:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Remington 788. It regularly shoots sub-moa groups at 100yds with Federal High Energy 180gr Partitions. Unfortunately, it also fails to eject about 20% of the time (a few stove-pipes but most just falling back onto the magazine). The ejector moves freely and is (I think) strong enough. The extractor doesn't leave any extraneous marks on the inside of the case rims. I've looked carefully at the extractor and other than more machinging marks than I'd like to see it looks ok. My gunsmith says it's working properly for him (but he hasn't tried it a couple of hundred times :).

I'm not "whimping" the bolt and I can't find anything about the longitudinal angle of the rifle at the time of extraction that makes a difference. To summarize, I'm flummoxed. This is the first "push-feeder" that I've ever owned (other than Garands and M1 carbines) and while a simple extractor replacement might do the job (to reiterate, the ejector is free, slick and strong) I'd like to understand what's amiss with the rifle.

Anyone have a clue?

Thanks Much,
Ken Smith <>
Colorado Springs, CO, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 00:27:59 (ZULU) (your host address:


Which Win 70 do you have? the Stealth, or the regular heavy barrel. and which stock do you have?
Craig <>
Rifle, CO, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 00:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys, found some new tactical H-S Precision stocks for the Rems, at close out price of $180 delivered. This is at Ed Brown's site. Thought you would wanna know.
Bargain master Bravo <>
I was lookin' for sumpin else, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 00:37:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone have a website for Brownel's? I wanted to look into that trigger replacement for my Savage.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

WTF? I spend $750 for a new Rem Police and now I might have a damaged chamber??!! And I haven't even shot the beast yet. Any further info on this?

There are 70-80 million gun owners in the US. How many are NRA and/or GOA? 4-5 million? How many of them that DON'T own "evil black assault rifles" or "evil sniper rifles" are going to get off their fat a$$es and VOTE in November?

I would hazard a guess that if 15-20 million gun owners would vote a one-issue vote (2nd amendment), we would have GWB in the WH.

I'm not saying he's just what we need but he sure beats the hell out of Algore. I don't even want to hear about Nader or the Libertarians.

Long holiday weekend coming up. Everybody stay safe - and have some "quality" time at the range.

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
Mouth of the Rat, FL, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damn, that was harsh "Mars". I guess I was asking for it, that previous post was admitedly not very well argued. I don't know who this Kevin is but I assure you that I am not him. Anyways, apparently I didn't word my post well enough. I can't see where you got that part about the million mom march, and me as a reason for having it, from my post but oh well. I am a reasonably tolerant person. I go to college and I am a very well educated individual. I am just confused at why people are angry at the Scouts not allowing homosexuals to be leaders. In my experiences it seems that most people think that Scouts is a public organization. I think that all kids should have the opportunity to be involved in Scouts, its just that many of the younger kids can't deal with things such as homosexuality at their age and I don't see why they should have to deal with it when their reason in Scouts is to have fun and learn (not about politics, but about the woods and camping and the like). I have to go... but email me about this post so that we can talk further without taking up space on the board. ALSO, I am sorry if I offended anyone, I apologise if that is the case.
JP <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:12:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
oh yeah... this isn't related either but I SCCA SoloII race that '71 vette in question...And once again, If ANYONE knows anything about the new 12bvpss (or whatever the acronym) on the Savage website please let me know the price or anything else that you may know about it that isn't already posted on their site. Thanks again

jp <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:16:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mars -

Moe Mensale <>
Mouth of the Rat, FL, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:16:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for getting this Scout thing started. And Mars is right. We should absolutely not tolerate intolerance.

And I think that homosexuals in line units will be WONDERFUL for morale and recruitment. Ask anyone who has been in the field with a combat unit.

Now let's all hold hands and sing Kumbiah.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:19:37 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thank you and you're welcome; all in one sentence. I will send a note to your e'mail.

I suspect that the big hullabullooo over the gays in the Scouts thing boils down to people being intolerant about other peoples intolerance. Not too much different than my ranting about your rant. Possibly it is a bit oversimplified putting that way huh?.

Oh well, I'ld say God bless America but I'm not so sure there is a God (whatever that is) and besides I don't want to aggrevate the others like me here.

Yikes this is tricky stuff. HA!

Play hard!

Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address:


When were these things shipped? Have a batch lot of serial numbers? Damn!

Does that mean that if my 308, 7mm and 300 are shooting real nice tidy little groupies now, that I can shrink them down even more with a straight chamber?

Would have to be a damn sight better for me to break these muthers down and have to go throught the whole process again. Not to mention muy expensivo!
Bolt <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:25:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok What is up with .308 ammo? I can't find any quality stuff around here. There is some cheap imported stuff that I wouldn't shoot. I did find a box of Winchester 150 gr psp that averaged about 2890 fps with an extreme deviation of around 200 fps. (rifle is a Savage m12 BVSS)

Kurt <>
columbus, ms, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:25:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


CDC yer killin me.


No harm no foul kiddo.

Maybe playin too Hard!
Mars <>
Gettin off My high horse in , NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


CDC yer killin me.


No harm no foul kiddo.

Maybe playin too Hard!

And lets not forget these two lovelies.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear
arms, shall not be infringed.
Mars <>
Gettin off My high horse in , NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:27:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Somebody pour me a beer! Where can I get a me a troup of Girl Scouts? Show and tell would be interesting around that campfire....I've done lived too long! Beam me up Spock.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:45:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
OK, here's a fairy tale.

Firefight. Fellow soldiers hit and bleeding all around you. You recover some and get them behind cover (or they've pulled your sorry ass out of the line of fire and are plugging the holes in your limbs and torso, sticking you with blood expander and maybe putting in trach lines or covering the sucking chest wound holes). You're trying to hold in your own guts while weak hand pulling the .45 out of the leg holster under your very bulky/hot body armor and TA-50 harness (because the AK round that went thru the mag well of your M4 screwed you big-time).

The medic/doc/PJ/corpsman helping plug you together (or you're trying to keep alive) you know happens to be an advocate of the "Alternate Life Style", and just before the shooting began was identified as HIV-positive before they could start admin out-processing (Don't ask, don't tell, don't harass, don't pursue). By the way, there's blood and body parts (let alone body fluids) all over everybody.

Survive the firefight. Die later of HIV complications. Did you infect the surgical staff during triage and emergency surgery, or your wife in the period after you were medically retired?

Thing that make you go hmmm.

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 01:51:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hmmm...guess I was sort of hoping that folks out there would know about, or at least be interested in, the new Remington PSS's shipping with non-adjustable triggers (i.e., pins instead of adjustment screws). As several of the sniper-related sites include info on how to adjust Remington triggers, I thought there might be some interest in the fact that this information is now worthless to anyone with a new 700. Maybe these trigger adjustment sites should be updated with this disclaimer?

Anyhow, I called Remington today and was told that the triggers are "factory set and there's no need to adjust them," hence the new lack of adjustment screws. "That's just the way it is," they said. They didn't seem very concerned that a 6-pound creepy trigger on a precision/target rifle isn't conducive to precision/target shooting.

Surely _someone_ out there has even a little knowledge, insight and/or interest in this information?
62-0x <>
Honolulu, HI, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 02:10:02 (ZULU) (your host address:


All good questions but ya can't walk through life worrying about what if. Thats called muddling through.

Definately what you suggest though..... things that are worth going hmmmm over.

Play Hard

Mars <>
Not the City, NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 02:10:50 (ZULU) (your host address:


Sorry I got lost in my ethics. A bad mistake.

Regarding your concern I am not a real technical type but the idea that the Remington people say thats it and leave you no option seems counter productive and almost absurd.

I agree for a precision item there should be flexibility for the operator to tune up.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 02:15:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pano; Take another look at that trigger... the answer you got from Remington is SOP. Are there holes in the narrow part of the trigger filled with epoxy? I've never seen a Remington that's not adjustable but it could be they have fallen victim to Politically progressive piss-ant thinking. I doubt it though. The screws.... see if they aren't there?
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 02:51:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
To my kind, compassionate, caring, lovable fluff-ball partner: now see what you started?!? Want a mini-14 and a 9mm debate with that? Oh, and country rap is defined as "squaredance music".

Justin: welcome to the roaster dude. Consider it trial by fire ;-) BTW, the "a" in roaster is no typo. I was never an eagle scout, but I've heard that the only difference between the Army and Scouts was that the Scouts didn't have arty. HA! If we can get you shooting like you want, more power to you. I'd drop the soviet long range shotgun though. DOUBLE HA! Now for the tripple HA: for fast, agile, and 'glass, trade 'Vette in on a Shelby Cobra replica from LoneStar. Sorry, the last part was just for me.

Patron Dave: your fairy tale sounded too much like reality. I always wondered why they do the testing AND say don't ask. DUH. But you didn't start it off with a "Rock the good Ag", so I didn't whoop. You think with this cum-hander in chief soldiers question such things before taking care of wounded troops? Nah, there's paperwork to protect us!

Wild Bill: you're two behind. And what's this "a beer"? And don't eat the brownies!

62-0X: the reason I don't say anything on the topic is because I know nothing of it! This is bad info for those who purchase them new, I suppose it's like shooting after the ammo is banned. My reply will be the same: "well, I've got mine". No solace for the next generation though.

Mars: you might wanna pull a clit-ton and reword those first two darlings. They don't rap well. Don't let Rosie help you though, or we got dead air. Hey, have "a beer" and relax.

Geoff called, my CAR is shipping Tuesday (he doesn't want oops having it lay around for ANY time, a move I wholeheartedly agree with!). He says it weighs next to nothing, will do MOA with ease, and is butt ugly! The description was a "really quick and lightweight little rifle". Needless to say, I'm looking forward to it, something I've not said about a black carbine for a number of years. I just don't have luck with black carbines or 45 autos. So I'm gonna paint it ;-)
Brew Master Bravo <>
you talking to me? YOU talkin' to ME??, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 02:54:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lappin' lugs will have NO effect on accuracy, so don't as your time.
You didn't say what ammo gave you those 3/4" groups... if it was factory, even factory match, then handloading should cut those groups in half.

Crooked Chambers?... what Crooked Chambers... Winchester ain't got no "Crooked Chambers"!!
That's strictly a Ilion problem... and not the first.

That's bad news about the Rem triggers... but it's no suprise. Remington has been "sealing" things up for years, because of some law suites they lost, and now, with the "partnership" with Stren fishing line (where Stren pulls the strings), they are getting further and further out of touch with their shooting public... much as Smith & Wession's non-shooting owners in England, have.
But the 40-X's have beautifully adjustable triggers, or you can get a Winchester M70... Win still remembers why people guy guns, and who buys them... there is no sealer on the trigger at all... adjust away.

your intolerance towards people that are intolerant of other's intolerance, is very notable, and tolerable!
I vote for tolerance toward mud wrestling, lesbo, Girl Scouts.

"Sinister Dave"...
Yes... Hmmm! Take life one day at a time, and not too seriously!


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 03:51:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

With arrival of the CAR, will you change your e-mail to Bravo556?

Mark <>
Ohio, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 04:02:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

HOLLY F**K More "Kevin" slaggings again Geez
- Yes I know there aren't for Mussack or me but Gee

Sinister Dave: WELL SAID!
-but I thought we carried the pistol to deal with the medics
(joke I'm not trying to Flame Medics or Corpsman [again])

Mike - 'Lito Hey B&L rule - I had mine almost 8 years and its the only piece of kit I haven't [yet] busted.

Bravo - I just finished 'Unintended Consequences' now why do I think of you?

Jerry - Sorry Tape still incomplete (not all my fault) my M203 hasn't come back from being repaired and that was part of the night/low light signature portion.

Definitely not going to Storm w/ any Western Canadian contingent
I drove over a Toyota Supra last month and the bills and insurance increase are taking a bite of my earmarked coin. And the others don't want to pay my way (how rude)
But four are planning (and saving for next year)
Maybe Mike you and James can get something cooked up for next spring and I can extend the Northern Invasion (but bringing lotsa BEER)
Kevin <>
Canada - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 04:30:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito', few days since we speakum white man trash!

Mi amigo, I know how much you NUB your Win's............

BUT...........unfortunately, I also have heard drumbeats of the SAME kind coming from their encampment..........not to the same level, but still got their own prob's...........

Wonder if we need to start taking bore scopes, and hex wrenches to the sporting goods section and take a good look see before we buy??????

This news (on the triggers), will just about do em' in...........
now for the reciever to do a build, you got to add another "C" note for a trigger!!!!

Never owned a WIN, guess it's high time..........
Two Shoes <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 04:41:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck: the LE guns listed on our website are usually LE only stuff. We are HK and Colt LE dealers. We have a bunch of transferable stuff though. Some real Belgian FAL's, MP-5's an HK belt fed, a Colt M-16 A1,(at least one I can recall in stock) All full auto. And some antique stuff, an MP-40 two MG-34's and 0ne MG-42 that is out for repairs right now. Come and see. Ready to travel west? I'll check my planner and see what I have going on the next several week ends. Then I'll e-mail direct to let you know.

You gents definitely need to see the latest rifle our custom gunsmith just built. A bolt action .338 Lapua Mag. With A-2 Stock, stainless fluted barrel...very sweet. Shoots great...(we'll take it to the range when you come over Chuck) The 'smith is picking up my spare M-70 Classic long action on sunday to build the same rifle for me in .300 Win Mag. (Just because the .300 is less expensive to shoot than the .338 LM at 60 or 70 dollars a box). All of the .338's being built for our store are on Remington actions. I picked up this Winchester action, So, In the interest of economics, I'm going to use it. As soon as I can get digi-pics I will post it to our website.

Later All.

Cory <>
Stillhotternhell, Florida, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 04:44:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Read some talk about a B&L tactical and their unavailability. To whoever cares I just saw a brand new one at a place called Reeds Sport shop in Milpitas, CA (San Jose area). Hope this helps whoever needs one.
joe <>
Norcal, CA, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 05:46:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Brew Master Bravo: first...Unfortunately Scouts don't get to play with the big guns (HA) second...That Mak-90 is a long range shot gun (you guys brag about having 1/2" MOAs, thats amateur stuff, TRY shooting a good foot and a half MOA at 300 yards(what can I say, I was goofin' around) I bet it is harder to aim at all of the random shit that my MAK-90 hits than it would be for me to just spray and pray (double HA) but as for the stuff about the Corvettes and Mustangs "$h!%stains" well, "them theres fightin' words" (triple HA) Yeah a shelby mustang has some prowess on the Track but, no offense now, I have ZERO respect for any stock FORD Mustang (excluding the new Cobra R, but then again that doesn't count as a Mustang) That '71 is pretty much bone stock and it will school any stock 'stain up until about '94 or so. Now that is pretty bad, It has INDEPENDENT rear suspension (hell the new Cobras are the first mustangs to EVER have independent rears) Sorry about what is pretty much a third off topic post for me in a row, but I had to defend that tear on the Vette... Hehehehe damn its late talk to you guys later. hopefully this time about something more along the lines of the usual post here :oD

jp <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 06:33:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re: Remington Triggers

I haven't run into the "pinned, non-adjustable" triggers yet (hope I never do), but I would suggest a very close re-examination.

To echo a previous post, the adjustment screws can appear to be lacking, due to the depth of the threaded holes that they sit in and the copious amounts of lawyer-mandated epoxy that they are buried under. Getting misinformation from Remington phone drones would not be considered newsworthy, either.

Liberal application of acetone (don't go to the chemical supply company, just ask your wife to borrow a bit of her fingernail polish remover) will dissolve the stuff, or at least soften it to the point that it can be removed with the point of a penknife, allowing you to adjust to your heart's content. When adjustment is complete, a dab of your wife's nail polish (you pick the color) will seal the screws and prevent the adjustments from shooting loose.

If the triggers are indeed now non-adjustable, order a 40X trigger (about $70.00 a year ago)......not only fully-adjustable, but the weight-of-pull adjustment screw is externally accessible. Funny that Remington sells this trigger but doesn't want you to adjust the stock trigger.

Standard Warning:
If you are not competent to adjust a trigger, let a good gunsmith do it. His $30-40 fee is a lot cheaper than lawyer's fees, legal judgements, funerals, etc.

See some of you at Storm.

Pete and ''lito.......Get the sheep OK?

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 06:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Let me know when you're ready. There's a Greek G3/CETME clone in a store in town that I've been eyeing, but I'll hold off 'til I head , NM your way. They also have an Austrian STG58, but I prefer the design of the G3. Still trying to decide on a new bolt or on an assault weapon. Geuss we'll see.

Mustangs? Corvettes? Maybe I will get that .50 BMG.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
BetterthanthepeoplesdemocaticrepublicofNY, Fl, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 14:19:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Remington triggers; It would be very difficult to assemble a remington trigger without adjustment screws, I don't know what you could do except put it together adjust it and braze it shut and grind it off, (too expensive for that operation) . Those pins are in the side. Adjustments in the ends of the housing. I doubt if they have those holes plugged with anything but loc tite or glue. (I don't know why I said epoxy).
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 14:25:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mustangs, Corvettes, Barracudas, Oh My!

On Rem 700 triggers, spend the money and get a
Jewell. They make a fine trigger, well worth the dough.

Chuck and Ken, Way late post and response, I have not spent any time in Quantico, but comeJan. I will be spending
about 9 months there. After TBS, I willbe joining Chuck in the FLA AO, in the loveley Pensacola area where I'll be yankin' & bankin'.

Semper Fi!

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 15:03:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Quantico has to be one of the nicest bases where I've been stationed. You're lucky, you're going there from N.Y. You'll be used to the cold. I went to MSG Bn. from Schwab. My lungs about frosted over on the first PFT (it was December). Good luck, stay out of trouble in D.C.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 15:22:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can any one tell me how much of a difference there is between M852 match ammo and M118 military ammunition. I have zeroed my rifle with M852 but will shoot a competition with M118. All I have to shoot right now is M852 (168gr BTHP). I need some advice. Thanks.
SSGT Steve Lammers <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 15:26:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Are you going active or reserve? Do you know where you'll be after Flight School? If you go to Beaufort MCAS I'm up there quite a bit to hunt in Yemasee. Cory's not too far away from you, in Panama City. Again, Good luck.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 16:00:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

SSGT Lammers,
118SB is usually hotter than the 852 so I am sure your zeros will be off. The 852 shoots much better also (More accurate). Maybe one of the military guys has the info available its been a long time since I shot both of them.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 16:08:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Need a little information.

I've decided to hunt elk this year here in the Colorado Rockies. I'm going to use my tactical rifle. It's an original Steyr SSG69 fitted with a Leupold M3LR scope with mil dot reticle. I have two questions to ask.
1. Will the Nosler 180gr ballistic tips I have do the job for me?
2. Can someone give me some dimensions on the animal so I can work up
the range dope.
Don't worry. No, I think I can shots here. Just want to have the information in my log book. A 10th group SOTIC instructor told me once that your log book can look like a local phone book as long as it contains usefull information that will help you get the job done.
I tend to agree.
Don <>
Florissant, Colorado, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 16:32:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

SSGT Lammers: M852 is the Sierra 168gr MK @ 2610fps
the M118 is the 173gr FMJ and the M118LR (or IP) the 175gr Sierra MK @ 2610 (ish)
There is a diffrenece but as long as you aren't going out very far the difference is relatively small
Range in M M118LR (MOA) M852 (MOA) (a 300m zero)

100 -5 1/2 -5 3/4

200 -3 -3 1/4

300 0 0

400 3 1/2 3 3/4

500 7 1/2 8 1/4

600 12 13 1/4

700 18 18 3/4

800 24 25 1/4

900 31 33

1000 39 41 1/2

Note these are Book values for the M24 and all are cumulative MOA

Kevin <>
Canada - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 16:38:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes...
Never owned a Win??... Yup! It's high time ;))

Bruce R...
The reason the sandard triggers aren't adjustable, is the design begs to be mis-adjusted, and many "numrods" have gotten in trouble with it (and then sued Remington).
Keep in mind that most gun owners aren't like the bumz on this site (ol' "chainsaw" has already modified his "308 towed", and hasn't shot 30 rounds out of it yet)...
The average gun owner shouldn't even be allowed to remove the action from the stock!! I'll get flack for that statment, but remember the guys next to you at the range, before you start sending the incoming!!

The reason the 40-XB triggers ARE adjustable, is that by the time you're shooting well enough to be in that league, you know (hopefully) what the hell you're doing.

And yes, I got the sheepies... luv them ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 17:06:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike Miller / Undude,

Mike, check your email ID!

Bob Hodge <>
Out west, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 17:24:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don: 180 gr CT Ballistic Silver Tips: 308 win handloads: 2620 fps at standard atmosphere. At 9000 would be a little faster. The 180 will do the job but I would keep it under 600 yds to maintain 2000 Lbs energy. The closer the better. My 308 180 loads are for black bear but they would work on elk. Elk are slightly smaller than a horse. 24" chest width, 30 " body height from chest to top of back average. Other demensions vary too much. I used a 338/06 225 gr BT on a 5x5 at 360 yds a few years back, he took one step and went down with a single shoot. Hope this helps.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, nj, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 17:39:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mark: HA! I love good humor. No. Unless I shoot someones 300 mag and it's better on me than a hunting model, two calibers of rifles (and a hunting 30-40) will suffice quite well for me!

Kevin: yes, this time you: All right, you've formally done it. The "unintended consequences" goes on the stack of reading material for when the snow is deep and cold. Then I'll know if that was a compliment or insult ;-) You make it here for the fun, I'll try my hand at Moosehead or Molsen, and lots of it! Now where did I put the rice and water?

Bruce: Seems the eco-swine have made lanolin filled non-acetone stuff! Worth checking before swabbing. The Big Jim chiles came in, but they're HOT(!!), Hatch has nothing to fear from our little garden! How the seeds changed, I dunno.

And congrats are due to my great state. HCI just turned out results saying that we went from a "D" last year to a "D-" this year! Our majority state senator went on record as saying "well, it proves we're doing something right". Now for the "other" part. We have purty much agreed what would happen with the blue pots, but what about these domestic enemies? I'm not advocating a field trip to KA or anything, but that we ought to THINK about the next step and what would be prudent, legal, and right. I'd wholy advocate gunnies moving in and taking over (with voting) a sparsely populated state, as a last bastion of greatness. After all, a well run state does NOT have to bow to demands of the Fed!
Brew Master Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 17:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Out-take from Dave Liwanag's post "Survive the firefight. Die later of HIV complications. Did you infect the surgical staff during triage and emergency surgery, or your wife in the period after you were medically retired?"

Guess what goes through a medic's head every time he/she has to scrape up some piece of garbage in a car wreck or shooting? Real medics are hard as nails, aggressive as hell and smart..I have had to wash in bleach more than once before entering the house...and gone without "conjugal privilege" due to meningitis / encephalitis about commitment!

Just as an FYI - AIDS is a pretty wimpy really gotta "ask" for it to get infected....the stats on an HIV contaminated accidental needle stick are something like 100 to 1 that you won't contract the disease. Wanna be scared, talk about HEP-B,C-D...that stuff jumps at you! Most AIDS patients are that way because they are IV drug users...sexual preference irrelevant.

Kevin ((joke I'm not trying to Flame Medics or Corpsman [again]) - what are you planning on doing with that "pistol to handle the medic"...pull it on me and I just won't save your sorry ass (joke)...actually, I'd really just kick you in the head and save you just so I could gloat later (still jokin' offense, really ).....I'm really bummed you aren't going to Storm Mountain this year....I NEED A PARTNER, MINE BACKED OUT.

On the Boy "gay" a personal preference of a political party? I don't think anyone should be kept out of the scouts because of thier personal beliefs, but if you become a troop leader to teach the your beliefs to my children....we'll then, we have a problem.

just my opinion.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 18:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don: You may want to check out the Federal High Energy 180 gr Nosler Partitions. More OOMPH! When shooting elk with a .308 that's a good thing. How do you like the M3?
CDC <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 18:14:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Don; I would recommend you change to the same weight in the Nosler partition. If you don't get the accuracy, you might want to think about the Speer Grand Slam as a replacement. I can't verify that the path would be exactly the same but I don't think the Ballistic tip is safe to use as a Elk Hunting bullet.
I saw a Cow Elk eat one last year and get away completely.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 19:24:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Whoops; Sorry CDC! my clock was off but we posted almost simul on that one. Anyway I guess we agree on the remedy!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 19:28:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
To Dave Livang.
I do not want to be rude, but before you put smut on a gay corpsmen, did you check the statistics for Aids? More people got the desiase by needle contamination, than by sex...
So your scenario should be modified to the following: you got shot to pieces and then a corpsman used a contaminated blood, wich US government bought somewhere else, or the straight corpsman is using a needle which he used before to shoot drugs with his buddies, or there could be a lot of ways to get AIDS without being gay...
HK <>
LA, CA, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 19:55:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
For those interested in the AMAX:
39.5gr Varget under the 168gr AMAX set 30 off the lands gets me .340 in my 700P. It's taken awhile but I think this is the best I'm going to get with this load. It's in the 3's consistently with the best being .340. Anyone else using the AMAX?
Breakpoint <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 19:59:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
1. It was a fairy tale.

2. Wasn't aimed at medics (I think the Combat Medic's Badge and the roll of Medal of Honor medics is testament to that).

3. I believe soldiers will immediately go to their buddy's aid in a firefight (I've been taught that since even before Day 1 as a Private).

4. If you don't serve in a combat arms unit, or as Jim Mitchell in a professional emergency medical profession where traumatic wounds may potentially cover you in others' gore, this is an academic exercise only. So, Henry K, get bent. It was MY fairy tale. Smut my ass.

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 20:44:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

You figure out which state and I'll sell the ranch, load up the truck and move.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 21:20:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck: Hmmm. Two Marine Expert shots against a state full of couch potatoes and hopolophobes. Nope, we need at least three or four ;-) When I get it figured out, I'll let everyone know.
Bravo <>
the banana republic, rotting from the top down, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 21:55:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Doh! I thoroughly goofed on the Remington trigger "crisis," and youse guys were entirely correct in your guess that I wasn't looking closely enough. The screws were completely covered by hardened black goo, making it appear as if they were pins instead of screws. I had just received the rifle, and in my haste to examanine and reassemble it (in somewhat poor light, to boot) I just plain-old screwed up. Oh well, at least I was smart enough to present my query to the right group of people!

(In the way of gratuitous ego maintenance, I'd like to add that I'm neither a complete dope nor unfamiliar with's just that of my near-100 rifles, I have only three that were made since 1960...this PSS being #3. I hadn't seen a disassembled 700 for years, and recall some sort of obvious white strip covering the trigger adjustment screws.)

My trigger is now set at 2.5 pounds, crisp with minimal overtravel, and passes the safety tests with flying colors.

Anyhow, I hope I haven't started some terrible false rumor about Remington putting themselves over a barrel for their lawyers... Sorry again, and thank you very much for your assistance.
0-0x <>
Honolulu, Hawaii, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 21:55:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Subject, "BOY SCOUTS".

The main problem with personal beliefs, and personal lifesyle differences as I see it.

Is no matter how hard you try, you cannot separate the two on a consistent basis.

Problem I have with Homosexuals in the Scouts, is...........

As a Heterosexual male, common sense, tells people with common sense, that I don't get dressed, undressed, take co-ed showers with the opposite sex...........period.

Why?, because MY nature is to be attracted to THE opposite sex.
It's like puttin' booze in front of an alcoholic, and thinking they will NOT drink it!, ain't gonna happen...............

So, tell me the difference?, how do you mix a person that is just as sexually aroused at looking at men, as I would be doing the opposite???????????( not talking Pedophelia here), so don't go there.)

Answer, YOU can't mix them together and expect good things to happen, it's not HUMAN nature.

You are asking for trouble, and believe me you WILL get it.

Off topic, but sorry had to add my .02's worth.

Color me Sick and tired of a group of people trying to get minority status, and special rights, that the rest of us DO NOT have.

And at the same time, forcing a Private group to cowtow to their wishes..................It's UN AMERICAN................

Tolerance used to mean disagreeing with another's perspective, or idea's. And agreeing to disagree.

Now in this world of PC, BS, Tolerance means you will agree and accept MY way off thinking, and MY way off life, or you are a Hater, and a BIGOT................

Long way from the America this stump puller came from...........

Flame away..............
Two Shoes <>
USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 22:37:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

For all those shooting Savages and interested in Choate stocks:

I just found a new source that will accept orders from non-FFl holders. price is 107.95 + shipping(add 3% for credit cards). E-mail me for phone number.

Also- I am shopping to upgrade my barrel & need a "turn key"(short chambered, threaded & crowned)job. Money is tight(this is a recreational rifle)- who do you guys recomend for best quality on cheap dinero? Thanks.
Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 22:41:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

My view on PC
Firstly I agree with Sinister Dave (a good way to stay alive), he mentioned a situation, and had place those facts before us. For all the time that I lurked and the last year of postings, Dave is the least likely to intentional flame someone (w/o good reason)

Secondly from my understandings as a Canadian (who's Constitution isn't worth the paper it is printed on - "Guns are inherintly dangerous so the laws restricting them can encroach people rights" I could go on. The US 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of speech so let people speak.

Thirdly and most importantly if well all just sit back and be PC what happens... No one spoke out to the Nazi's (at least soon enough)

Kevin <>
Canada - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 23:04:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Gringos...

I can understand the interest in long range shootin' that's what this site is all about.
Can understand somefolks interest in all the aspects, handloading, spindrift, etc, but...
What's all the interest in Gay Boy Scouts?

The new Precision Shooter came in yesterday, and has a cool article on shootin at REAL long range.
16' steel plates at one and 3/4th of a mile... and the Dude whacked a Prairie Dog at that range to boot, measured with a laser, and witnessed!!.
Talk about tapered bases... 450 moa of taper... (Martin, are you reading this??)...and about 6" high off the reciever for a clean sight path over the barrel...
Course, I remnember the last time long range shootin' at PD's was mentioned (it was Jerry Rice that was doing the shootin'), and a hell storm broke out over the "Poor wittle Prairie Doggies"... you woulda thought it was PETA country...

OK Bravo, get to work! Whack a PD at one klick to warm up ;))


Pablito <>
Lookin' fot he mud wrestlin, lasbo, girl scout camp ;))... in politically Correct, , USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 23:14:02 (ZULU) (your host address:


The military except for special ops use the M24 sws with 118 special ball there is so 118LR out there but it is now the common round.As for results the standard engagement range is only out to 800m but a well trained shooter can engage out to and beyond 1000m these distance of the shot is limited but the ballistics of the round and by the 10x power optics which we use.

Recondo <>
Ft Campbell, KY, USA - Friday, September 01, 2000 at 23:53:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito: My fault. I started it. The full weight and majesty of the US Gub'ment is advancment the agenda of The North American Man/Boy Love Association versus that of The Boy Scouts and I posted one of several possible links. Won't happen again.

HK: I'm sure that Col. Liwang appreciates your thoughtful instruction in the finer points of military courtesy.

Bravo: Not square dance. It was country rap. I'm sure I'll hear it again as background music in the waiting room to Hell.

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 00:09:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Man, if we turn PrarriePoodle Country I'm gonna never shut up. I'm out here with the VarmintCong and loving it! Got my first two-fer a month or two back, wierd thing was the poor wittle squirrels were standing side by side about 5 inches apart from one another, after a bit of enie-meenie-miny-moe I decided to shoot the one on the left. Bullet entered the left one center mass and a bone or bullet fragment exited 90 degrees out to one side killing the squirrel on the right.

One of these days I'm gonna make a pilgrimage to Prarrie Doggie country and see if I can nail some of those critters out past the 700 mark. Around here 300 yards is pretty easy game unless Dorthy is flying by in a tornado, 400 takes me a dope shot or two because I'm changing loads more often than I change underwear(you think I'm kidding!) I think I've nailed a 500 yard squirrel at the range before but I couldn't tell through the scope for certain and I think the range dude would have been awful pissed if I started hiking out to the 500 yard line when 200 is sometimes "iffy" if the range is busy that day(damn gomer pyle types). All I know is that at 500 yards even a 20x Leupold doesn't ID the target nearly as well as I'd like, at 100-200 yards I can tell what the things are thinking on 20x but certainly not at 500. When I get my next long range varmint gun, I'm either having the Loophole boosted or I'm gonna dump a bit more change for a Nightforce, I'll just cross my fingers for nice weather and pray I don't see miles-o-mirage.

Anyone know where I can get some arty to drop on the VarmintCong? I figure some 85mm Mortar dropped on those parrie dog and squirrel towns should be able to take them out when they duck into their tunnels.
B. Douglas(squirrel boy) <>
Tossin squirrels like they were a wet sock in Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 00:32:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck: one of the truly GREAT guys on the roaster here told me that Ky got the coveted F- by the HCI punks. This might be a good place to start looking!

'Lito: you know I'm not that good of a shot. Heck, it was all I could do to put that 5 round group in a pack of winstons at 600. HA! I felt like a dolt until others missed the fleabags too. But that's the beauty of a gas gun, I can miss with great rapidity and rend the ground with STYLE! By the time I get to Storm, I'll be waiting until they run at a click before firing to keep those military guys in shape ;-)

CDC: You're a hoot. You think there's questions why I call Patron Dave such? And if those country guys can do a remake of the Eagles, why don't we hear Bob Dylan doing Marty Robins?

B. Douglas and the Varmint Cong: with all the boyscout stuff here lately, just assure me that it's a crossbow bolt in your rear, not a fun game of a**darts. HA! JOKE!! Man, you've got some AR's that are TRUE space guns! If you shoot as good as they look, the fleabags are in TROUBLE!
Bravo <>
Patron 'Lito sent all that blankity blank rain here! Solid week!, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 01:48:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Blanks and such.....
A friend gave me 300 or so LC68(mostly) .308 blank brass linked.Some appear as unfired/primed but empty some with fired primers and all empty. This brass has the little tit to simulate a boolet I suppose to facilitate feeding in autos.The links are rusty but brass looks to be good.Do any of you want this stuff before I scrap it? It cost me nada it costs you shipping.

Gee Whiz guys whats wrong with a homosexual providing guidance and leadership to a bunch of young boys/ a the woods.....DUH?

Bill Rogers,I'm not believing that you could all but leave this alone

Next thing you know ya'll won't be able to work that second job as sheep herders.
Bruce E. <>
Texas, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 03:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys I stay off for 24 hours and you resort to NAMBLA/Gays in the Scouts and Winchesters. Yuck!

My solution for NAMBLA is to use everyone of the perverts as range targets. Only way to cure them.

Gays leading Scouts, goes against everything the good book stands for. I really need to move from Calif.

Speaking of which, I was channel surfing tonite and saw my ugly mug on an NRA Infomercial. That should seal any chances I ever had of making LT. LOL I can hear the Chief coughing up a nut anytime now "What does he mean no two cops in any PD could tell a legal semi auto from an illegal one?"

Well the foot feels pretty good so I will start getting in shape again tomorrow. Especially after seeing my fat face on TV

The Remington trigger is something I have never heard of. Are you certain it has pins and not screws in the holes?

Goy my Tactical Shooter today. They must hold them up at the Calif border. Mine is always a week after everyone elses. Nice plug on my slings by IAn. Thanks Ian.

Mike Haugen, not one but two Savages? Damm they will kick you out of SF for that kind of thing.

Bravo, nect year I promise to make the class an experience of a lifetime.

Dave L., Damm near made me want to cry. My other halfs Dad is in the hospital right now and should have a transfusion but the blood supply is so dangerous that they are going to watch him another day before taking the chance. They normally transfuse around a number 9 and he is at 8 and dropping. Dont ask me what the heck that means but he looks like crap. Been in since Monday. Nice guy Pray for him please.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 04:31:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry, I almost forgot. I will write something for the Magazine formerly know as Tactical Shooter on the new US Optics Scope. If you want some detail contact me via email and I will try and help, but I already promised to give them first chance at the article. Great scope it is. Pablito throw away the BxL for this one.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 04:46:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
Paniolo; That's what we are here for... think nothing of it. It's a rumor that would be easy to believe.

Hush ya'll Bruce man, I'm tryin to get this idea of "tent Sex" amoung consenting kiddies to catch on. Soon as I get my girl scouts you and ole Dave can do what you want with them girlie men!
I know what Col. Dave wants the pistol for! It's for somebody to hold on him so he won't jump out of one his planes over Iraq to get away from this "man's" Army we got today!

Jim; your gettin close to the problem. "GAY" is a religion and enjoys all the protection of a "Belief". AID's is just a small part of the "belief"... it's kind of a badge of the believer. You got to believe in your illness "Homosexuality" or it ain't no fun. After all, how can you prove you're a true believer if you don't have AIDS? Kind of a "Boned again" religious experience. If your famous otherwise and aren't GAY and you wind up getting this disease, see what happens to you. You won't evens draw a 13th page article in the Inquirer!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 04:51:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck..The Greek CETME 91/G-3..what do you think of them? Well built? I've been giving some thought to one of those myself. But have not had an opportunity to see a live specimen. The only HK G-3 we have in the store is a full auto one and I believe that it has been paid for and the form 4 sent out for approval. We just sold the last '91 we had... Real 91's never seem to last long at any price. Are you talking about the Imbel/Styer stg-58 parts guns? PEE-Yew. They are pretty much a pile of crap. At least nothing like a real Belgian FAL. But I'm not a big FAL fan...although I do think the DSA FAL's are very nice...we had several that sold almost right away. Very well built.

Let me find out (wednesday) when the Doc is going to replace my knee parts and I'll know when to tell you to come shoot..that invite goes out to any other roosterfarians that want to come to sunny Panama City to shoot.

As a Structural Fire Fighter/EMT I have been puked on, bled on, crapped on, and been elbow deep in newborn baby spooge (sorry, just did not know how else to describe it...he he he he). You really don't think about it at the time... you just do what has to be done. Thank god Paramedics and EMT's are out there... Saved my sorry ass four months ago after a head on collision. But, I am glad I'm fighting wildfires now. No more playing in other people's body fluids.

Pray for the safety of all the guys and gals on the fireline out west.
Cory <>
gettingreadytorainlikehell, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 05:34:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory, here in Ca our fires are starting to get under control, funny thing, they have been finding some HUGE crops of FunkyPlants up in the forrest after they were up there making fire breaks and working in the area. 189k plants or so have been taken out of the area in the southern Ca. valley area within the past week. Guess it's a good thing those parts of the hills didn't light up, I don't know if those firefighters would want to come down from the hill.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 06:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey I E-mailed you on that shoot that we have here in N.Central Pa.
It will Be on the 17th of sept., so if you want to go let me know!!.... Any one else want to go just E-mail me and I'll give you the info.......

Any one have any good info. on an Elcan sight, 5.56, just got one in for my friend , Will be trying it on my AR!!..................

Biggunn <>
Mtn. Country, In the HCI low grade state of......., Penna., USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 06:41:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yo dudes.

Just got in from Austria. Fricking baggage is lost betweeen here and Amsterdam.

Anyway, 2 US cop teams, Boise, ID and Opelaka, AL, took overall top 2 places, using guns built on Remington actions (Autauga being one of them.) WEGA, Vienna SWAT, was third.

More news later when I wake back up.

Out here
Gooch <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 07:15:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Watch out for the flames if you mention shooting prairie dogs on SC. I did one time and the PETA faction came out of the wood work and I had to put on my flame retarded underware!!!
Send ddren e-mail and I might be able to help you with your long range flea bag shooting.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 13:26:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am about to purchase a night vision set-up for myself for evening stalks and I would appreciate your thoughts as to which type to purchase. I am interested only in Generation III or IV, but my main concern is whether I should purchase a head-mounted monocular or binocular. What are the visual effects of each while they are being worn?

I would also like to hear about weapon mounted night vision experiences, such as using McMillan's or ITT's scopes.



[Yes, I know this is a re-post from several days past, but as the topic of discussion had turned from guns to gays, I am asking for input from those who have the true, requesite interest to be on this board.]

Gonzo <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 13:55:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone have an email address for Precision Shooting/TS ? I have read the TS and the PS reason for dropping TS. I called the other month when it was 1st posted here that TS was going to be dropped but I want to let Dave Brennan know why I don't want the next magazine. OK, so we don't buy all the gizmos. Some of us can't afford or want a "widget". What I want is an accurate piece that won't break my wallet if it needs repair/doesn't break my back to hump AND gets the job done. What I want to read about is PRACTICAL/TACTICAL and most of all USEFUL info. I don't care if I can't hit 1200 meters/yards BUT I can do the job at 800 and thats more than I can say for most of the "hunters" that make claims of 350-400 yd shots with an AKS on whitetail down here. Yeah, Right !! I was at English Range (Ft. Benning, Ga) and amazed another shooter by popping the 350 target and the 500 target with (to me) regularity. He was just trying to get a good group at 100 & 200 for hunting...go figure.

Yep, I'd love to have a Chandler or (whatever is the current flavor) fully tricked out and all the other neat gear but hey, I'm no longer in the service , on a limited budget, and not quite in my prime. Enough of my "moanin'& groaning"
Will Adams <>
War Eagle !!, AL, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 15:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gonz, a hand-held is an exceptionally versatile tool. If you are hobby dabbling, a GEN III is plenty capable (but expensive) for doing what you want.

If your outfit can afford them a GEN III Omni IV or V set of goggles (not a bi-ocular single tube) set is the ideal. Depth perception and IFF are optimum (which is why helicopter pilots use them to avoid "Controlled flight into terrain" or other solid obstacles).

Funny story: I was demonstrating black-out CQB (with AN/PVS-7 goggles) for my Marine Corps counterpart (may he rest in peace) with IR laser and spot light on M4, and we were tear-assing down a corridor in an apparatus in pitch-black when I ran full-speed head-on into a wall (A la Wile E. Coyote. Remember the depth perception I was talking about with a single tube bi-ocular?). He laughed so hard I thought he was going to wet himself. "Very impressive."

Once again with gadgetry, equipment ENHANCES your SOPs -- it doesn't make up for weaknesses in your training, tactics, and procedures.
Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 15:57:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike: I look forward to reading about the US Optics stuff. Hard to believe it's THAT great, but you, I believe. Just tell me that it's as rugged as the optics are good. Hey, and what is this about TV time? I guess we don't get that infomercial in the "other than KA" states? Of course with a kiddo in the house, it's cartoons on TV or dinasaur stuff. As for the class next year, a similar experience is plenty fine, don't go out of your way to make me feel good ;-) Really though, my best wishes with your SO's Pop. One way or another, we gotta get Kevin down here for some fun.

So the missile defense project is a no-go once again. Not that I'm wanting a raise or anything, but this cum-hander in cheap, the resident of the federal states, decided ONCE AGAIN that we would all sleep better with the victim mentality. Chuck, when we take control of a state 1) no income tax to the fed, state tax only. 2) Canadians welcome for citizenship 3) a LARGE and EFFECTIVE state guard and militia (it'll be needed to ward off the problems of the fed)!
Bravo <>
man, we GOTTA find a better place in the, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 16:08:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


enough already. can't we all just get along.

I got kicked out of the boy scouts. I got caught eating a brownie.
bobbyb <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 16:27:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone got a link for "GEN III Omni IV or V set of goggles".

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 17:36:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Was down @ Quantico range this a.m. meeting with the RSO there. They were holding a black powder, iron site shoot ... at the 900 yard line. Those dudes were shooting 45/90's, 45/100's and 45/120's ... Sharp's, etc...
Now - they didn't exactly have 1/2 minute groups... but... my respect meter went wayyy up for those dudes... there was one or two that were in the black .... man I didn't think you could even hit the butts that far away with those. I started thinkin' about the berdan sharpshooters when I saw these and got a whiff of that black powder smoke :)

Gettin' ready to head out for Storm Mountain tomorrow morning...
Now let's see chow, bullets, glass, chow, ... trgt data book, chow, oh...there it is 'positive mental attitude'... okay ... got that...oh.. can't forget that rifle either...running shoes/shorts for the pft... oh s**t... I need to stop eating right now... maybe lose enough ass between now and mondy morning to be able to make the pft run in time...not to mention the push-ups part of it...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 17:51:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

pft? PFT?!? Nobody told me about any PFT! Although after carying the M-25, I can probably do the pushup part. So what do I have to pass to play? Better start running now.
Bravo <>
man, I'm outta shape, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 18:08:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
for the SS1, SS2, SS3 class... there's an entry pft that you have to pass: 1.5 mile run in 14 minute or less and 40 pushups in 2 minute or less...I think those are the only 3 classes that require it...Wouldn't surprise me if it's required for any of the high stress classes (high risk personnel, etc).

as far as the rondevous... Im purdy shure it's come as you are....

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Layin' off the, Captn Crunch Cereal, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 18:14:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Austria's a beautiful country, huh? I was on MSG duty at the Embassy in Vienna. We did an "exchange shoot" with the Wien Polizeia and had a great time. We only fired the Glocks and AUG's with them and HK P7's with the South Africans. What a great bunch of guys!

Hey Marius,
You need any help in south Africa? If everyone there are like the "Protection Specialists" I met in Wien, I'd love to live there!!

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Boydoimissosterreich, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 18:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

B. Douglas, Good to know CDF and USFS are getting a handle on fires there...thats funny, I run across that "stuff" in the woods all of the time. We just call it in to our LE guys with the department and they come get it. We just sent crews to Montana, Texas and Kalifornia. I can't go this time due to the crushed knee...Chuck will tell you, I'm lucky to be able to walk between my car and a shooting bench. But, I'm getting new parts put in! So I should be good to go in 6 months or so.

Does any one have any experience with or have you handled the Spanish or Greek CETME contract/clone of the HK 91/G-3? I'm looking at them in SGN and Gun List, look like a good gun to start a decent rifle on.
Cory <>
Raininglikehell, Fl., USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 18:20:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jerry, I fired off an email so check that virtual mail box. Don't ever encourage me to talk about squirrelin unless you really want to hear about it, I tell you I never stop. But for the roster I'll pull in the reigns a little bit cause you warned me that the lettuce and tofu faction of the Duty Roster will hunt me down.

As far as conditions go, they hardly get any better than they are now. Temperatures aren't any hotter than 85 max with a gentle breeze if any, the clouds are random and roll in for just long enough to vary the lighting over the terrain. About the only thing I could ask for is green hills instead of these dad-blasted browned out hills. Haha, good news is with the fires we've had recently, our memembers of the Varmint Cong stick out like big giant white fleas when they run through that blackened terra firma.

Now where'd I leave my heavy artilery?
B. Douglas (squirrel boy) <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 18:26:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck, I just tried to phone you..must be online, give me a buzz today, got some questions for you. I left a msg. on your service.
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 18:36:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pablito, Craig,
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. I should have given more details but the rifle was a plain jane Model 70 that I was in the process of trading for. It shot really good with some Win. and Rem. match factory match ammo that I had. The trade never went through so I dont have to worry about lapping anymore. Thanks!

Roberto Ordonez <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 18:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can anyone tell me the worst case maximum range of both 308 and 300 win mag or where I might go to find them?
(NOT max effective range; I'm after the absolute maximums)
Many thanks
Matt <>
UK - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 20:15:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tony Yakowski: hey dude... you must be moving... give me a call or email me ...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 20:22:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have several questions. Why dosent anyone seem to us the 6X42 scope anymore? I have read that it was the primary scope for the Germans during WW2. The 6X42 is also used on the PSG1, which is considered one of the best weapons available. I also keep reading on this site and others how the 338Laupa mag is the only round invented for snipers. I read that the 30-378weatherby was invented for this task in the 50's?Thank you for your answers. Finris
Finris <>
Norman, Oklahoma, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 20:29:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
(and youz guys better believe the name fits... he has one hellava "UGLYGUN"!)

Since I forget to re-up my dues to PETA, you can feel free to mention whackin' Prairie Doge, Woodies, and especially CROWS, with a rifle, any time you want.
It beats the hell outa talkin about gay boy scouts ;(

I'll back you and "The Rice Man" all day long :))

Pablito <>
Lookin' for a brownie for dinner!... in CROW country, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 20:32:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys I just bought my first bolt gun a model 70 winchester stealth. I has a factory H-S precision stock on it. I pulled the stock off and set the trigger to 3 lbs, while in there I was looking around of course to see how the aluminum block was installed and found what I believe is factory bedding also. There is black hard shiny stuff at the recoil lug area and the 2 reciever mounting holes.
So not to bad for $541 inc tax eh? Although I gota say I am not to impressed with the fit of the stock on the barrel.Left side gap along the barrel way more than the right. But then again I have been in Army aviation for 15 years so maybe I expect to much. I seen a date stamped on the aluminum block in the stock said 6/98 so maybe they are putting seconds or something on them who knows. But I love this rifle. Now if I just had the vari-x III LR M3 I would be set. :)

So now what do I torque the 2 reciever screws to and the hinged floor plate screw?
John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 22:12:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

These days shootin crows is good sport, but here in NY where they are West Nile encephilitus virus carriers thats all they're good for. Indeed thats probably a good reason to keep bangin em. Of course when ya whack one and a local animal or dog comes along and eats it you might be spreadin the bug. Might even be makin it worse. As a pro FF/paramedic I'm thinkin I don't want to go pick up some kid who just got nipped by the local dog who just finised his afternoon snack of crow. DAMN!

As for "prairie cong" (great lable by the way) we have a S&!t load of them here and they are the farmers worst enemy. Cattle and horses with broken legs and so on. The local milk makin man encourages you to pop em when ya can.

Gives the PETA people a dilemma probably. If I'm hittin the ground hogs I'm being cruel. If I knowingly let those future hamburgers break their legs I'm cruel cause I let it happen and coulda done sumtin bout it. What a dillema. Well I pick keeping my next cook-out from suffering so I'm gonna load up my nail driver and go be mean to a woodchuck. HA! Which reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw a couple weeks ago; in big latters it said: "I LOVE ANIMALS" small letters underneath it said: "CAUSE THEY TASTE SO GOO!" Double HA!!

Play Hard!


Mars <>
Too many Crows here in , NY, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 22:44:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

John McGrath...

Yup... that's glass bedding in the Winchester M70 Stealth. They used to use a thermal bedding compound some years bac, but the last two M70/HBV's I bought, had glass. The ofset is because the aluminum block isn't milled true. Just finished building an M24, and had to hog out the front of the aluminum block, and fill it with stainless glass bedding, to get it true. If it's two much over for you, you can clean it up, and re-bed it.

Hey Mars...
Where in NY do you live. I'll crawl a mile on broken glass to shoot Crows with a rifle... "Black Rain" :))

I used to shoot them out the window with a Beeman "R1", in a little park across from me, and the park guy would just take them away.

Just got a new RWS 75, but I'm afraid to shoot one... they see a dead Crow on the ground these days, and the guys in the white, full BIO-contamination suits show up ;((.


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 23:16:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks Chainsaw, I can do that now, I think. And Mike, don't take it as a challenge. Hey, I did the bellycrawl race for 50 yards and didn't puke! Guess I ought to get a stopwatch though.

And why you guys bagging on my personal favorite group PETA? We're just nice guys. We, People for the Eating of Tasty Animals are just another culinary organization like the chef's society.
Bravo <>
where the black footed bubonic fleabag is endangered, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 23:22:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks man and hey you know the torq specs on the 3 screws, 2 on the reciever and one on the floorplate? All 65 inlbs?

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Saturday, September 02, 2000 at 23:30:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

John McGrath...

65 inch pounds for the two on the ends... maybe half that for the center one. The purpose of the center one in to hold the front of the trigger guard, against the magazine box, and snug it up (same as the center screw on Rems)... so don't go too heavy on that puppy... just snug!

We had rain so heavy today, I-95 came to a stop for 20 minutes (with me in the middle of it)... with all this rain, I'll need a 28 ga skeet gun for the skeeters ;((



Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 00:06:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just got back from my source for G3 info. He recommends buying a parts kit and a reciever. He says that the Portugese CETME is the one he'd use. There was an ad for them in The Shotgun News. I guess HK actually set the Portugese factory up so they use real HK dies, tooling, etc. Their reciever has the gas-tube already set so there's no tac-welding invloved. Century Arms has a G3 rifle on a Hesse reciever and an HK kit. The gun store here wants $800 for it with (3) 20 rd mags, but he says that if you get the kit and reciever from the Portugese (I think the company's called MCA) that the rifle will be of much better quality. I'm tempted to just buy the one he has, unless you find out that I'd be getting raped. The Kits run $300 fixed or $400 adjustable butt stock and the reciever is $400. I also picked up some match rounds and some copper cleaner. How much for a 500rd brick of Federal?
Has the Doc decided what to do about the knees? It would be good to team up with you for a run at Storm Mountain, if you can bear to hang out with me;} I'll give you a call later.

Semper Fi!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 00:25:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Charles Hopkins,
Hesse might make a receiver that looks like an HK receiver with stamped sheet metal, but I've read that the quality just isn't there except on a cosmetic level. Getting a Portugeese(ya I know wrong spelling) receiver and building on that would probably be a better idea I'm sure. Watch those kits and make sure you comply with 94 Assault Wep. guidelines, a collapsing stock on a post ban weapon will get you in deep doo-doo if you didn't know that already. Check things like whether the kit has a flash suppressor on it or not also as that could screw things up. I hate all the regulations that are being forced on people trying to buy a non-native receiver, the Hesse might turn out to be a better deal in the end if you find that the Portugeese receiver has to have a certain amount of American made parts in it.

Though I must say this, don't ask me, I don't make the rules I just try in vain to follow them. Just some issues that should be checked, it may end up solidifying your decision in the end when you finally make a decision. Personally my brain just starts to go into a feed back loop and smoke starts to shoot out my ears when I begin to think about all of this.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 00:50:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ugly Gun,
Thanks for the tips on the G3 build up.

I can, without a doubt, comply with your state laws. Let me know when, Governor. BTW how did Fla and S.C. do on the HCI report card?

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 01:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone got a point of contact for Larue targets?

Out here
Gooch <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 01:17:28 (ZULU) (your host address:


Upstate and central located. West of Albany on I88 for an hour. Oneonta. A drinking town with a college problem.

For you Baseball fans its a 20 minute drive south of your mecca (aka Cooperstown).

Play Hard!

Mars <>
On duty at the FD till 0800, been here since 0800 HA!, NY, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 01:20:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey all,
I posted several questions a while back on my new 700 VS.
Everyone's response was very helpful. I'd like to follow up
with these comments and then throw ought some more questions.
1. My HS stock does indeed have a single piece alum block. My bad.
2. I sanded down the stock and tightended the screws and have no more binding. Thanks.

1. I found a place that sells 165 Nosler Ballistic Tip ammo for
$12 a box. These rounds work for me as good as the rem. match 168's I
payed $19 for. Anyone have input on the nosler's? Are Federal 168's or 175's really the best? I'm having trouble finding them.

2. I asjusted my trigger as per Pablito's instructions, cept I could not budge the rear engagement screw. I worked around it and set the trigger at 2.5 lbs. Sealed the front screws, and it works great. Is my failure to adjust the engagement screw going to cause a problem?

3. I want a Leuopold Vari X III 8.5-25x50, but the discontinued 8.5-25x40 is now selling for $300 less. Is the 10mm difference worth the extra dough?

Thanks in advance for feedback.

Doug Raymer <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 01:53:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, I did my part again today. Worked on a float for the County fair with some guys from the John Birch Society. Dunno too much about them, but thier motives seem sound. I was the guy with the crepe paper on the side "Stars and Stripes Forever" in blue, followed by a red "?". Had some nifty stuff about "Freedom under the Constitution" and "Slavery under the UN Charter". Before I stick my neck out and go to some of thier meetings, anyone know anything about them I SHOULD know first? BTW, I really liked the "Get the US out of the UN, and the UN out of the US" ;-)

Chuck: would it be imposing on others beliefs to tie the personal tax rate mildly to quarterly rifle qualification scores a-la the Swiss? State militia at it's finest!
Freedom for All Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 01:54:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chack this out! A BRAND NEW ROBAR .50 BMG BOLT RIFLE W/ DETACH STOCK for sale! Follow the link:
jdbjr <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 02:22:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Robar .50 cal:

The current bid is over 5K...and says the reserve price is not met.... not a good deal in my book. Another question... Are you sure that Springfield scope's guts will stand up to the shock of .50 recoil. I hear stories about scopes getting their innards shaken out of alignment when mounted atop of heavy recoiling rifles.
There are others out here that are way more experienced than I am - but those are questions that cross my mind.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 02:51:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck...I hear the Hesse Recievers are crap. That the recoil from the .308 causes the pins to wallow out the aluminium rec. yack yack yack....That the CETME Spanish are some of the best...but I need to get one in my hands to see for myself. I saw the adds for the reciever w/ the cocking tube already attached, but I do not know of anyone who will press the barrel assy. into the reciever. ???

The Doc is going to do reconstructive surgery on my right one, cut through the bone below the tibial plateau and add bone to the leg to lenghten it, get it straight, and level out the part that is crushed down. I had an MRI done tue. and the cartilage looks like shattered window glass, so there is knee replacement in my future too. But first I have to get the reconstruction done and healed, so it will be spring before I get to go to SMTC again. That's okay, because we have a chance to train together a bunch before we go. And I want to get a AT-1 C-24 before I go. I will know Wednesday all of the dope on the next surgery. Look at the class schedule and see when the next SS I and SS II are. I would'nt mind going through those classes again in prep for SS III. We could shoot for those dates. I'm back in the Gym, I can do most leg work outs, but the pain is intense. Not so bad I can't work through it though. I have to always remember that if I'm going to be stupid, I have to be tough. But, I CANNOT run at all. I tried on the treadmill yesterday...I almost go sucked through...looked like something off of a Jetson's cartoon!!. I can ride a bike though, so I'm doing cardio on a recumbent bike.

Cory <>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 03:47:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo....I feel that If we as gun owners have to get licenses, register, jump through our asses to own a gun, then everyone who wants to be a citizen should have to take a test...I mean my god, voting is much more dangerous that fire arms. Especially if your too dumb to own a GUN!!!! And Hell, we'll let anyone have children. just pop 'em out. Don't need any credentials to be a parent. Can't have those damn guns, but, hell go ahead and bring a little tiny life into the world, who friggin' cares if they're to dumb to wipe their own butts, you can raise a little "future criminals of America" no problem. Messing with a small humans development is no big deal, but, damn it all, we think you are too damn dumb to own guns.....they're going to make you go commit crimes if you have one, or, God Forbid!! You might shoot some criminal scum, ACTUALLY DEFEND YOURSELF and not let the "state" do it for you. Can't have that now.

NO TAXES...go with what the constitution allows......leave my money to me to invest. So, If I'm too stupid to plan ahead for retirement, I DIE!! Plain and simple....Lets sell the concept that an Individual is responsible for himself, that the only thing an individual is "entitled" to is to breath the air on this planet and the god given rights you are born with. The rest you earn. Including citizenship and all the associated rights/responsibility that go with it.

AW, heck, It'll never catch on.
Cory <>
Darkandwet, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 04:17:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the Hesse HK receivers, last I saw they were stamped steel not to be confused with the highly touted forged aluminum Federal pieces that look like a lead pipe with which to club your foe rather than shoot them. I don't put much faith in either the Hesse(stamped steel) or the Federal(forged aluminum) receiver though when it comes down to it, then there is Special Weapons which also has an aluminum receiver but it is much cleaner in appearance than the Federal house pipe. I've actually held the Special Weapons clones and they have nice fit but I had the same concerns with aluminum just like you have, plus they are super expensive.

Those Portugeese receivers I'd like to play with though next to having an actual HK labeled receiver.

Neat thing about the Ca. gun ban(wait there's nothing neat about it!) was that I saw a bunch of guns going through the gun shows and gun shops that were what was left over legal stuff from 89. While much of the HK line was banned in 89 under the RobertiFools gun ban(HK never renamed their guns to become legal again like Colt and others did) the copys and the newer models of HK rifles were still legal. I saw a lot of HK SR9 variants come through along with the Portugeese clone(I'm not sure if it was called the FMP or not), the Federal lead pipe jobbers, the Hesses, and the Special Weapons guns I mentioned. While sad that the guns were being rushed in to beat a bunch of 1/2 brained thought up legislation it was no less neat to see what all was coming through and getting bought up in mass. Of all the guns coming through the Portugeese HK91 clone was the one I saw the least due to availability. It's no wonder I landed the AR10 deal when I had it, I'll upgrade later. Only 308 semi I want now is an M1A but all that's left for me to get is a Bastardized version if that is even allowed anymore. Any of you folks in prarrie dog country want to adopt the squirrel boy? I'm getting so where I can't take much more of this.

I linked the page with my squirrel slinging lighting rod from hell. Sometimes I figure after hauling the lead pigeon up a hill, with all that work Murphy has got to jump in and do something totally ironic like kill me with a bolt of lighting. Funny thing is if that actually happened I think I'd be proud to have the tale of those events on my tombstone for all eternity.
B. "Mr. Squirrel" Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Sunday, Sept thar 03, 2000 at 04:49:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, Proceed with caution. I am a pretty conservative guy, but many people consider The John Birch Society a wee bit on the fringe. I may be completely wrong, but if you are not on a "list" yet, you certainly will be soon.....
Michael Sheehan <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 05:32:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
good afternoon! i'm with the philippine army and presently assigned with the first scout ranger regiment. i enjoy browsing your website. hope to learn more things.
lawrence r san juan <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 07:00:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
Re: PSG1 and 6x scopes "Ultimate"???????????

The PSG1 (and in my humble opinion most 7.62 semi snipers) is designed for close range multiple target engagements. (FLAME, BRAVO, FLAME)
We've gone over this before and I still think sniping is the domain of the bolt gun, and the PSG1 for paranoids in Black Nomex who think multiple engements with single snipers is a logical or practical way to go.
The 6x Hensolt (sp) that is fixeve g its reciever is an example of this thought process. It gives a relatively wide field of view that allows for quicker tgt acq. In the CF we used to issue the 6x Kahles scope on the Parker Hale C3. What this does is limit you effective engagement and observation range. Now we have the Uerntl (sp again) 10x (same as USMC w/ football dots)

FOOD FOR THOUGHT 1 PSG1 or 3 Jerry Rice Nighthawks DO THE MATH

Kevin <>
Canada - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 07:19:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

PA shooters, FYI-

I was recently shooting long-range in the Tiadaghton State Forest when I was approached by a forest ranger and informed that no one was allowed to shoot targets in any State Forest in PA without their shooting area first being inspected and OK'd by the district forester in charge of that particular State forest. Safety concern was the reason she used.
I was then told the forester in charge of Tiadaghton would never Ok my shooting area because it covered 900 yards, even though I was shooting across a very steep hollow on a natural gas pipeline 30 yards wide. I was told this regulation applied to camp owners with state lease camps also. (Years ago, PA leased small parcels of state owned land to people to build camps on. The leases were for 99 years. Many are expiring, and when the lease expires, the state is not renewing, to the best of my knowledge, and the camps must be removed. If the camp burns down prior to the lease expiration, the lease holder may not rebuild.)Imagine going to deer camp and not being permitted to shoot a few rounds!

Anyway, when I asked if I could HUNT the same area with the same methods, I was told yes!! Needless to say, next time I show up, I will have an orange hat on my head and my license on my back, "hunting coyotes".

bs <>
pa, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 10:56:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tasco 10X42 Goes South:

Andy and I went to the range yesterday to confirm zero and get in some practice before the Rendezvous. . Andy's first shots were not even on the paper. I figure he's left one full revolution on his elevation drum again. So he gets on paper and he zero's his drums. Three shots later he's an inch left and low. I figure he's pulling his shots and won't admit it. So, ol' dad takes over and sure enough that rifle would put two in one hole and then send the next three to the other side of the bullseye. Everything was tight and the witness paint was in place so I new it had to be internal to the scope. With no taper to the bases to get hits past 800 yards Andy has had to "put some torque" to the elevation drum to get the come-ups he required. I wonder if he could have damaged the scope in so doing.
On the ride home the mood was pretty blue as we tried to figure what we were going to do between now and the Rendezvous. Andy's Mom noticed his "hang dog" look and asked me what was wrong. When I told her she said, "Well, then get him a new scope." I said, "Do you know what you're saying?" She said, " This is important to him, spend the money." Now that's a SNIPER MOM. I'll be on the phone to Premier Reticle first thing on Tuesday morning (Badger/M3LR).
kmussack <>
Clifon Spings, New York, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 11:12:25 (ZULU) (your host address:


Mindful of all the recent discussion on this site regarding queers; perhaps if I’d phrased my 308/300 max range question as a scenario involving 2 male characters –both of the persuasion that chooses to make a playground of the human body’s primary sewer- I may have got a greater response :)!!

I’ve missed that opportunity; but perhaps if I explain the reason for my question I may get the answer -and give you a mild insight into firearms licensing iplaye UK:

As a member of UK Forces I experience only minor difficulties in gaining a license for rifles that I can show I have a ‘good reason’ to own.

Civilians are no different; but the licensing authority (the local police force) may make them jump through a few more hoops [NB. Pistols are totally outlawed for private ownership].

Several police forces set their own extra assessment hoops based on their own hidden anti-gun agendas (and whilst that’s technically illegal, it’s an expensive and protracted business for the man on the street to challenge the police force in court).

What may be considered a ‘good reason’ by one police force might not cut it for another. Thus, your prospects for legal gun ownership may be drastically affected according to which police area you live in.

If you have ANY criminal conviction you will not be allowed to own firearms (personally, I have no problem with this particular aspect).

Thus, the reason for my question, an old school friend of mine (who I still talk to despite the fact that he’s a civvy :)) has applied for a license for both a 308 and a 300 Win Mag for deer and target shooting. His local police force have indicated to him that they will be happy to grant the 308 but mention of 300 Win Mag caused sharp intakes of breath all round!

From my perspective this is farcical. They have determined that he poses no threat to public safety if allowed to own and use a 308.

However a 300 would be far too dangerous for him to own!?!

I feel that this is a facile argument based on an anti’s fear of the word ‘magnum’.

So, just how much further would a 300 Win Mag go than a 308 if, heaven forbid, it were to be negligently discharged into the air (on the optimum or -in this case- worst trajectory)?

It’s only going a few hundred fps faster at the muzzle than a 308 of the same bullet weight; logic tells me that the 300 will go further, but I strongly doubt that it’s by very much.

Anyone know?



Matt <>
UK - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 12:02:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

bs in PA...feel fortunate that you can shoot in your state forests...we do not allow anyone to have guns in state forests unless it is hunting season. I'm the Forest Area Supervisor for a county in Florida and I have a state forest in my area of responsibility. I'm also an avid shooter. 30 thousand acres of state forest in our area and no place to shoot on them. Florida Fish and Wild Conservation Service has the mind set that the local redneck population might poach the Kings deer. Well they are anyway! So honest shooters get penalized for the few criminals that are going to do what they want regardless of the laws......By definition thats what makes them criminals...not to be confused with the Florida State Criminoles over in Tallahasse at FSwho? University. Go Gators!

All of the commentary on the HK cloned recievers is appreciated. I really want to get one in my hands to see if they are worth a damn.
But thanks guys.
Cory <>
Stillgrayandwet, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 13:33:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

One more time: Anyone got a link for "GEN III Omni IV or V goggles".

Bravo: At the risk of starting another nightmare thread that will not die, heed well Michael Sheehan's words concerning the Birchers. Research carefully from independent sources. Start with "National Review". Their motives are irrelavent.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 13:44:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

If I were a Ranger in a national/state forest I wouldn't allow "free firing" either. It is irresponsible. I have a friend who is a fire managment officer in Oregon and he took the time to establish a firing range on the wildlife refuge that he works in. The problems are:

1. A rifle round goes much further than most pepole think. According to the NRA Range Book a 180gr .308 @2610 fps can travel 4166 ft or 2.4 miles a 180gr .300 mag @2900fps can travel 4350 ft or 2.5 miles. MOST well designed ranges will own the impact area and control access to the impact area by signs, flags, fences etc.

2. During hunting season most places require everyone in the woods to wear blaze orange. I dont think we want to make it a rule that everyone must always wear blaze orange in the woods. I currently live next to one of the most popular hunting areas in WV and during rifle season it gets exciting sometimes.

When I go backpacking or on a picnic with my kids I should be free of worry of stray rounds coming off a varmit hunter.

Once upon a time I and another sniper were fishing/camping on the Arkansas river. We eased our boat up to a sandbar, set up camp for the night and were walking around gathering firewood. As we walked we heard the distinctive crack/thump of rifle rounds going past us. We dove for cover thinking we had stumbled on a guarded pot patch. As I lay unarmed behind a log (yes I was wishing that I was packing my CZ) we figured out that some asshole was across the river with his rifle popping shots at the sandbar. It was way too far and the wind was blowing in the wrong direction so we coudn't yell to get his attention. So we lay there, practiced the crack/thump technique and waited for the asshole to stop.

Responsible shooters will restrict thier shooting to designated ranges or places where they can observe the impact area such as on a prarie. If you want to assume that the impact area is safe you go right ahead, I won't. Murhpy's range law says that if it is down range and can be shot, it will be shot. With the anti-hunters and antigunners we must always practice safe shooting habits even if it means we are inconvienenced a little.

BS from PA. You were shooting next to an ABOVE GROUND natural gas pipeline? Dude...

Out here
gooch <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 14:11:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


"Now that's a SNIPER MOM."... that's a REAL mom!
Most just don't make the cut... :(

Right on, Andy's Mom!

Call Premier in the morning, and tell them your situation with the match (Premier reads this site), and you will have it on Wed, or Thurs. Premier is great about service.
Order a Badger one piece tapered base at the same time, or you won't have enough elevation to strike the long targets. (been there, done that... it sucks!).


To say you didn't get an answer to your question because it wasn't phrased about "queers", shows a major lacking on your part... both in manors, and in knowledge of what this site is about... you probably didn't get an answer, because it's been answered about a dozen times, and it gets REAL old.

None the less... the 308 is good for about 5000 yards, the 300 Win, for about 6000 yards.

Now, do you really think that the British police are going to give your friend a second permit because "YOU" saw this on our web-site... I think NOT. The police simply don't want your friend to have his second toy... and he'll have to live with it, or move.
You English are supposed to have fine manors (compared to us American "Uncuth-nicks). If you post again, try using some.

Dude-ski, take well, and head advice given you by other Rosterfarians... pass on them "Birch" puppies.
You might as well send your name to the FBI, and say... "Put me on your Whacko list, and watch me (and my children) forever".

Give 'em hell Dude!


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 14:31:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Matt, if you want the .300 you tell the coppers you need a larger caliber cartridge to be both humane and effective if you're going to be hunting stags (which I'm told can be quite large in the north and Scotland). Although a .308 would be effective, the .300 would be more appropriate for the heavier, large-boned deer.

As for target shooting, the .300 is much less affected by winds at 1,000 yards and beyond (1,100 to 1,200 meters). Mention the National Matches at Bisley, patriotic flag-waving, etc.

CDC, try or

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 14:41:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am with Gooch on this one. Inconvenient or not, sucks to be a shooter in PA or not; the last thing you want is Murphy's law of shootin says what Mr. Gooch points out. A round will hit some innocent kid or Grandmother picking berries for sure if they was wanderin downrange by accident. Lets not give the anti's any more fodder than they can get just by pickin up the news paper.

Hey here in the mountains of NY I wpould give a testicle for a 900meter range but the fact is between terrain and the local gun sissy population my twins will never be seperated. Finding a long D range that covers your butt for safety issues isn't as much fun as finding a hillside to pound the daylights outta but hey it's better than breakin rocks into soap powder in Leavenworth for an accidental sub MOA group in sombody's honey.

As for the Ranger, well is suspect he doesn't like it anymore than you do, but feeding his kids is based on doin what some technocrat tells him to.

I kinda like the question on the .308 vs the .300WM distance thing. Me, I own a .300wm and like it but I hear a lot of guys talking about the .308's. Details are always good to know.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
A very anti gun college town in upstate, NY, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 14:44:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh and regarding the Birchers............YIKES!!!!!!! If you're looking for a good (read fast) way to loose any respectability as a an intelligent, responsible gun owner and find things like IRS audits and holds (cleverly diquised as a technical delay) on your next pistol purchase, you go right ahead and show up at the next club meeting.

The definition of militia is pretty vague but the behavior isn't, nor will the establishments response to your affiliation.

I have seen it written here before and would like to re-emphasize that not too far away from being like the Latin states due south of here and we don't want to piss of the "Heffe"(Patron) or you'll find yer hut burnin down around ya. Of course this has all been metaphorically intended.........HA! and all that.

Brothers, the best most effective weapon I had with me as an operator was my brain and its ability to function. Look into your cerebral arsenal before you engage the hardware.

If its a felling of belonging you're looking for of a sense of mutual beleif and interest, then I suggest you stay in touch with these guys here. Share ideas, information and theory intelligently with like minded folk, go to the Storm Mountain shoot to commune with the Gods, but stay away from the gangs,OOPs I mean clubs, OOPs again, I mean the militias.

Of course this is MY opinion and hope yours (whatever it is) is as strong.

Playin Hard and keeping my guns and my wits about me!


OH, AND DID I MENTION; VOTE.....VOTE .....VOTE!!!!!!!!!!
Mars <>
Livin like I want no attention from the G-MAN or the really over zealous Troopers in , NY, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 15:12:42 (ZULU) (your host address:


Calm yourself! Re-read my post, the queer reference was a joke (hence the little smiley face! :) Try decaf! (that's a little joke too! :))

Others, particularly Gooch;

Thanks -about 1/10 of a mile difference -not much is it?



'lito, if you've had your decaf; it's 'manners' not 'manors' :)

All the best!

Matt <>
UK - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 15:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the input on the Birchers guys, let me tell you where I was coming from. Not being a Mormon, I didn't know this, but the previous president of the Mormon church (who was considered a "patriot prophet") told the Mormons that the Birchers were second only to the church (Mormon obviously) as an effective weapon against communism. Obviously, that's what I was wanting to look at, because if we don't do SOMETHING, communism will keep spreading around THIS country! However, I don't want to be on any more FBI list ;-) As for an active militia, when I see a well run one that isn't full of nutcases, then I'll think on it.

Kevin of the North: what flames? You said "most", which means you obviously were exluding the M-25, and "close range", which I'm assuming you mean 800 or so yards. Hey, we agree! ;-)

Kevin of the not quite that far North: Now THAT'S a woman! Other than her and CDC's lovely wife, I've not seen that aspect of femininity.

As for free-fire in national forests, we were in one once in North Texas. A great bunch of guys, one would set targets up along game trails, and it was kind of like IPSC, only with rifles. Well, along we go, and rounds start coming through the trees about head to chest height, luckily nobody hit on the first round, we all dropped by the next. Shots were fired into a hillside to let whoever know we were down there, to no avail. The group split, flanked, and surrounded the guy, who had just pulled his van off the dirt road and was firing "into the trees", not knowing there was a game trail (and us) behind them. His attitude was really bad, when told that he could have hit someone, his response was "yeah, well I didn't hit anyone, did I." So one of my amigos who legally had a M-11 put 32 rounds over him and his van in about 1.5 seconds. The guy hit the ground and tried to roll under the van. When the firing stopped, he asked "what the hell was that???" to which he got "well, I didn't hit you did I?". HA!

As for myself, I've got a 10 foot backstop bulldozed up, about 150 yards wide. That's the backstop on my no-vegitation 1000+ very flat range. And nothing but possibly grazing cows behind the backstop for miles. Safe and secure!

Oh, and Mars: my pistol purchases aren't called into the FBI, I'm immune from that, and the waiting periods also. Cash and carry legally, with no S/N's noted and such ;-)
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 15:49:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a quick question regarding Remington M700's. Are .300 Win. Magnum M700's a long action or magnum action? Consequently if they are magnum action does HS Precision make a tactical stock that will work with them? Will the Badger Ordnance base work on the magnum action? I need a new rifle and I am trying to decide between .3OO and .308.

McBain <>
AZ, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 15:59:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey I was wanting some thoughts from you guys on a temp install of my ACOG from my m4 on a .308 bolt just to be able to get some rounds down range.

Do you think the heavier recoil will hurt the ACOG any? It is the mil issue TA01NSN.

Just a temp thing until I get the $700 for the leupold.
Gen BloodBath McGrath (LOL) <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 16:33:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Okay - I've put extra duct tape around the servers, tied extra bailing wire around the lines.... the gunshop internet service oughta stay up for awhile. I will be checking in during the evenings....

See any of you hogs that are heading for storm....

Out and hittin' da road

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <>
storm mountain, bound...., USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 17:06:33 (ZULU) (your host address:


Larue is at Hope this helps.

Pat T
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 17:21:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

WOW, a world without mandatory registration, extended background checks for a permit and no SN registry?........Nirvana!

Other than Westchester county and NYC there is no waiting period here either but darn it all we do have all the other crap. However depending on your local judge conceal carry (loaded) all the time and anywhere except at a few institutions and of course the Westchester co. and NYC places is a given. In plain english, NY isn't too bad yet regarding the pistolas. Rifles and shotguns are kind of a gimme as well.

Of course thats until the current first Lady(?) came along. If you're a NY'er Charles Schummer the liberal, totally no gun for the citizen Democrat from Long Island isn't the only one who wants your gun. Hillary and Chuck want to make NY the national leader in gun control standards and are going to use the NYC pattern of NO GUNS if we have our way about things policy platform to get it. Of course most people probably assume NYC is representitive of the rest of the state and if that were the case I would probably be all for tough stuff on guns. Fact is when you get north of Westchester its a lot like the boonies. Ya know the Catskills the Adirondaks etc.....

VOTE, say NO to HILLARY and help me keep my guns and the right to get another when I wear this one out.

Also, perhaps a good stock tip might be to find the company who is making barrels that is listed on the NASDAQ or wherever cause when the mandatory ballistics signature laws start finger printing your over the counter naildriver, the parts guy is gonna have a lot of business in replacements.

Welcome to the new world order folks. First the "Euro" starts to melt the individual sanctity of the European states and next the WTO has the USA cow-towing to the likes of some third world hole in the wall who doesn't like our policy on abortion .....or whatever. With this kind of crap being supported by the politicians WE (maybe not you or me) have elected, it should be no surprise your guns are yours only as long as people like Tipper Gore say they are. Remember the "V chip?" That was Tippers baby and fundamentally it meant that since you can't keep your kid from watching MTV we'll do it for you.

Ok. Suddenly the sexual orientation of my neighbor becomes one of the lesser evils in my day to day life. Of course thatis until he/ she is being dumb around my kids.

Problems, problems, problems, Ain't this a great game?

Playin for Keeps!

Mars <>
No waiting period here in Northern, NY, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 17:34:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm looking at Bushnell range finders and need some help. I need to know which one I want for shooting coyotes, crows, and prairie dogs out to say around 400-500yds. THANKS Doug
Doug <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:11:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just wondering if anyone has any experience with a rifle that Jerry's Sports Centers is selling in their catalog:

FN Special Police Rifle, .308 Win, Controlled round feed, 3 position safety, detachable 4 rnd box magazine, 26" heavy barrel with chrome plated bore, corrosion resistant finish, H-S Precision Pro-Series Stock

Sound a little like a Winchester/Browning hybrid (3 position safety and controlled round feed; some Brownings use detachable 4 rnd box magazine, most Winchesters dont have detachable mags)? Not sure if FN still owns Winchester and Browning. Jerry's is asking $694.50 w/FFL. Would this be an alternative to the beloved Rem. 700P? (It's in the same price range.)
Gerry <>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:18:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mars: normal for weapons purchases: fill out the yellow form, then have the gunstore guys call in the information to the FBI for the "instant" background check. As was recently a federal court case, the FBI records ARE NOT being destroyed as required by law. These include make, caliber, your name, SS#, etc. Normal for me (since I carry a concealed weapons permit): fill out the yellow sheet. The guy at the gunstore then calls the Utah BCI (Bureau of criminal investigation) and asks "is this a valid permit number?". When they get the "yes, it's valid", that's it! No records of any transaction other than the yellow sheet, verbal or otherwise, and no weapon is mentioned to the BCI. No call to the federal bureau of intimidation, etc. either. This is actually the only reason I got the concealled permit, as a cocked and locked 45 auto is deemed "unloaded", because it takes 3 actions to fire it (depressing the grip safety is considered an action). Go figure. So I got the permit, so I can carry a Glock half-cocked and glocked ;-) And I carry EVERYWHERE, all the time. Utah only limits you from carying in fed and court buildings. Bars, airports (not beyond the security zone), schools, etc all fine.
Bravo <>
uh-oh, pistol country again?, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:24:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey if anyone still wants to get a Choate stock, don't overpay. Seems like most people are saying they're in the $150-$170 range. I saw them this week in a catalog from Federal Arms (phone 763-780-8780, address 7928 University Ave, Fridley, Minnesota 55432) for $108. Hope this helps.
Gerry <>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:38:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
How long have you had your concealed permit and when does it expire? I believe the background check requirement made an exemption for people who already had the concealed permit at the time it went into effect. But upon renewal of your permit, you will be subject to the same background check. Can anyone correct me on this if I'm wrong?
Gerry <>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 18:46:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gonzo and CDC-
There is no such thing as Gen IV night vision yet. In a nutshell, there are Gen O through III, with O being WWII technology up to the modern Gen IIa and Gen III. Listen to the previous post from Mr. Liawang and go to ITTNV for an excellent product line.
In all honesty, a GenIIa will do everything you want for a lot less cash, but the GenIII has a much longer tube life giving more value in the long run. Don't get anything else IMHO.
As a word of warning-stay away from all Russian or Soviet night vision gear. Most important-some of these have been shown to lack shielding and they leak radiation/x rays/etc to create brain tumors and cataracts in your eyes. Also-the stuff sold real cheap in catalogs as "designed in america" is old Soviet stuff. They stole our designs for their gear many years ago, so they advertisement is not really lying....just pulling a Clinton. Also- The best Soviet stuff advertised as Gen II is equivalent to US Gen I gear. Their stuff in about a generation behind. BTW the Remington NV design is French and not too good at that.
Like with optics-you pay for what you get.
MicTac <>
USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 19:44:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gerry: nope, it's that way for everyone here. I got my permit after extablishing residency and such, issued 05/11/99, good through 05/11/2004. Got the permit AFTER the law passed.
Bravo <>
permit carrying guy in the, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 20:21:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
I should move to Utah!!!
Michael Sheehan <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 22:00:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey guys, I want realy bad a SAKO TRG-22/42. Who can give me the most info about them.I'v seen the pictures of them with some kind of night vision on top of the normal scope,and they can be bought with silencer and all this other. Please tell me about all this and how to get a hold of one.Thank you very much.
Finris <>
Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, September 03, 2000 at 22:28:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
On shooting in the forests of PA,

The pipeline is buried under several feet of ground.
The sidehill into which I was shooting is almost vertical. This is not a place people casually wander into - there is one road (dead end) into the area. It was directly behind me. I was far enough down from the ridgetop on my side to see to the bottom of the gorge I was shooting across. I scanned the impact area with binoculars and spotting scope for 30 minutes before I shot. I fired 6 rounds that morning. I hit what I aimed at, as I demonstrated to the ranger with my spotting scope. She was very courteous, professional, and sympathetic.

I provide this information, not to justify this type of shooting, but merely to try and respond to some comments and questions posted here.

My long range target shooting days are done. I guess I've taken the hint. Dumb, maybe. Risky, maybe. Murphy could have reared his ugly head. We all tempt fate in one way or another. I was lucky.

It was big fun while it lasted.

bs <>
pa, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 00:05:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


Check out Jeff at for your Sako TRG-22/42 needs as I know he is expecting a shipment soon and his prices are very reasonable.


Gonzo <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 00:12:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

The wife, kids and I just got back from shooting a .22 Anshutz, a .177 Beeman and a .338 Winchester in the hills a mile out of town. Around here we strictly obey rule four and no-one thinks a thing of it.
CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 00:28:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo - Assuming you are relativly sane, stay away from any John Birch Society meetings. Don't even drive into the parking lot where they hold their meetings, man! You will definitely make somebody's "A" list for sure (and not for Christmas card mailings). HOWEVER, if you would care to peruse their website, go to for some interesting articles and POV on our friends with the Blue Pots. They do make some valid concerns and points about the US involvement in the UN.

Chuck - Unfortunately, the Great State of Florida only managed to garner a "C-" on HCI's latest state report card. However, with all good, law abiding Floridians working real hard, I bet we could earn a good, solid "D" next year! Especially if we can beat these a$$hole liberals in Palm Beach, Broward and Dade counties who are attempting to violate state preemption laws with their new mandatory gun storage requirements. The state NRA affilate has already sued Dade County and Palm Beach is next.

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
mouthoftherat, FL, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 01:12:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


Same goes here in the northern part of NY. Concealed carry permit gets the gun straight away......BUT when I want to buy a pistol I have to go to the Sheriffs office pay $3 for a "coupon" and then head for the dealers shop. Once I find the one I like I pay and leave the coupon with the dealer. He turns all the info about the gun in with the coupon. Then on the states list I go with the make, model and SN of my new weapon. Of course my permit never expires and as long as I am a responsble citizen my right to carry that weapon or any other legal one is left alone.

EXCEPT: Of course, I know of a guy whose ex-wife off handedly mention in a custody battle that she felt nervous around the poor schmuck she was ditchin and when the family court judge persued the statement she caught to what he was thinking and the next thing ya know this mook's gun permit is slapped with "restrictions" and the local deputy stops by to let him know that while he's movin out of the house he built he needs to be sure te weapons on his permit are unloaded, locked in the trunk and can't be used for any purpose other than "target practice." Of course he can appeal all this to the tune of about $100+/hour with his lawyer if he wants to. So now he nees to go find a Barrister who isn't some overeducated liberal anti gun activist to get his rights reinstated. So while yer watchin yer back for the politician who is gonna poke yer bung hole you ought to keep tabs of how disgrunteled the ole lady is gettin.

Wonderin what the hell is goin on.

Play hard...............or you'll get humped.

Mars <>
Pistols ok in upstate, NY, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 01:13:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Someone previously mentioned "Precision Shooter" and/or "Tactical Shooter" magazine. I have not seen these in the local Borders. Does anyone have any contact info for either?

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
MouthOfTheRat, Florida, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 01:24:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

You may not have to wait now, but how long did it take you to get your Pistol Permit? I think the wait was 6-8 weeks depending on how slow your county is. You can't buy or possess a pistol legally in NY at all unless you have this permit. I have a friend in Oswego County that lost his permit (and the Nazi Yorkers impounded his pistols also) for a DWI charge. I'm not condoning drinking and driving, but there's a difference between DWI and violence. In Fl. you can buy and possess with a 3 day wait and a FDLE check. If you have a Concealed Carry permit there's no wait. It could be better, but it's alot better than a 6 week wait.

I have a feeling you'll be paying alot less tax than I would if your law on taxation works in the new state. How about an island? Somewhere warm and tropical? Bikini clad women and shooting! Am I asking for too much?

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Gladimnotinnynow, Fl, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 01:45:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mars: URK? Coupons? DOUBLE URK? I think I'd worry about the state guys before the feds.

Chuck: nope, not at all. I've found some great real estate that should do tremendously well, just a matter now of getting enough folks to go down there and run the current leaders out. And it's just a short 90 mile trip South from Florida ;-)

Moe: there are folks here that wouldn't put me in the "relatively sane" camp, but whaddaya expect from a household where the bird says "Polly wants a Lager" (JOKE!). As our great good friend Mister Two Shoes illustrates, we've just ditched yet another of our God given rights voluntarily. Amendment one states that we have "freedom of association". And I believe him QUITE correct when he says that I'm already on the "list" for being here. After all, would they watch a high-power long-range shooter more or the local duck hunter? I'm not joining anything before I know what it is completely, but I do have to admit that this is the first group I've found that has a hatred of the blue pots to rival my own. Reminds me of when I asked a role model of mine, the master pistolero, his thoughts on firearms confiscation. He told me "well, the government knows where I live, but I know where they live too. It works well that way". I would say that friend Two Shoes has wisdom beyond his years, but since I know how OLD he is.... HA!

Michael: no, you don't need to move to Utah, you need to help us with the locals 90 miles south ;-)
UN hating Bravo <>
Havana is supposed to be nice this time of year, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 02:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Absolutely beautiful idea!! Can I be your Minister of Cigar Tasting? Actually, today I was riding the Buell and was thinking about "..of the People, for the People." What ever happened to that? How did our government get so large? What can we do to change it? Vote, though I'm beginning to get discouraged. I guess I'll have to dream of the Cubanos, rum and personal freedoms.

Let me know how everything's going. I keep missing your calls, I'll try you tomorrow.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Acubanowouldbegreatrightnow, Fl,, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 02:43:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Senate Bill 2099 will require us to put on our 2000 1040 federal tax
form all guns that you have or own. It may require fingerprints and a tax of $50 per gun.
This bill was introduced on Feb. 24. This bill will become public knowledge 30 days after it is voted into law. This is an amendment to the Internal Revenue Act of 1986. This means that the Finance Committee can pass this without the Senate voting on it at all.
>The full text of the proposed amendment is on the U.S. Senate
homepage, You can find the bill by doing a search by the bill number, S-2099.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 03:21:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

HK-91 / G-3 Clone receivers.

This post slightly out of sequence but I have not had the chance to check the roster for a number of days.

Beware of the Portuguese part kits. You can get them from Inter Ordnance of America ( but they have come from military rifles that were deemed to be past their useful service life. Hand selected or not (as they advertise), they are not parts that I would consider purchasing in order to put together a rifle that will operate in any safe manner for long.

Same thing goes for ANYTHING produced by Hesse Arms ( They have done a horrible job in reverse-engineering, especially the receivers. They are thicker than the HK, FMP and EBO (Greek) manufactured receivers simply because the steel used to make tham is A LOT softer than it should. You will get horrible harmonics problems (parts being rattled off) and most of all, you WILL find youself holding a timebomb because their receivers buckle because of the softer steel. Same thing goes for their barrels. They are producing barrels with the reverse internal fluting, NOT following ANY HK spec for its production. Their fluting does not allow the gases from the blow-back to properly float the cartridge and you will have massive ejection problems. When it comes to tolerances, hell, you will have to find a sharp corner to bang the forward end of the buttstock to slide it free from the receiver.

The only after-market receiver that is well worth mentioning for its true dimensional properties, construction and rigidity is the receiver manufactured from Special Weapons LLC ( Their steel appears to be cobalt steel (or at least has the hardness of cobalt steel; if you try to machine their receivers, you will go through a LOT of carbide tips). It is the most dimesionaly correct and correctly manufactured receiver outside a military arsenal. They also have part kits. Plus, they can get you in touch with an armourer out in scenic Arizona who can put a brand new barrel from Douglas.

If you can get your hands on an FMP (Portuguese) receiver, then get it. They are excellent quality made on original HK stamping machines. Plus, approximately 12 days ago, the importation of HK-91 style receivers has been banned. I can not find an FMP receiver for less than $900 to save my life. If you found one for $400, then GET IT.

Stay away and avoid any other receiver, especially the ones made from aluminium alloy, like the plague.

I would recommend getting the pre-ban (steel receiver), Greek manufactured SAR-8's, if you can find one that is. Half the price of an HK manufactured HK and they are as close to an HK as you will ever get. The company that produces those, EBO, is the same company that manufactures the G-3's for the Greek army. Original HK tooling ALL the way.

Send me an email if you need contact info for the armourer I use in Arizona.


Ares <>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 07:21:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Senate Bill 2099

Please don't start a mass panic on this board like has happened on some others. This bill is currently tied up in the Senate Finance Committee and has a snowball's chance in hell of making it to the floor for a full vote.

This bill was supposedly passed into law a couple of weeks ago while the Congress wasn't even in session!!! - Duh.

If it ever makes it past the Senate, it still has to go before the House and then on to Klinton - who would probably sign it just to show what a great a$$h... er, socialist he is. Save the children, you know.

Everyone have a nice holiday and don't get your panties in a wad.

Moe Mensale

Moe Mensale <>
gettinreadytorainagain, Florida, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 11:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

SSL 2000 / 2001

am kommenden Sonntag den 10 September findet in der Survivalschule Jerome in Meinkot (Wolfsburg) das treffen der Teilnehmer und Interessenten statt. Wir werden die Fotos tauschen, den Caliber Artikel besprechen, fachsimpeln, usw.

Anmeldungen bitte bis Mittwoch 06.09. an mich.


Torsten Erning

torsten <>
germany - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 12:43:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe; sorry if my post caused anyones underwear to warp. A state of panic already exists in this country over this subject and rightfully should. You may be right! It probably won't pass. If congress get a few thousand letters it wouldn't hurt them any to open some pro gun mail for a while. This is the type of legislation that will finally take your guns and from the direction it will come. Sleep well! The politics of America is in good hands. And if you read it, it only concerns handguns, and we know they'd never consider banning your "sniper" rifle.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 13:53:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
YEAH Baby!... what you said ;)

There are a lotta bills to worry about, but this isn't one of them... this dweeb from Rhoad Island has one like this about every other week.

Watch Chuckie Shurmer, Caroline "Whatsherface" from Long Island, and that bunch... they are far more skilled at putting up "harmlss" bills that have loopholes (for their side), that can escalate quickly... the Brady. All the flap was about the 5 day wait, and magazines, but how many poor snooks can't own a gun, because they told their ol' lady to "Piss off" one day, and got a restraining order against them... 15 YEARS AGO!!

I don't know why the guys in New Yawk are so happy with their gun laws for... I left New Yawk, and a very lucrative business behind, because of the gun laws.

In many counties, you have to go before a Judge to explain why you want a coupon for an "aditional" pistol, even though you have a permit... the issuance is totally discressionary... they don't want to give it to you, you don't get it, PERIOD!... full carry is rare and very difficult to get in most parts of the state. Often permits are "restricted" at the whim of the police, or the judge.

Many counties require you to have a heavy safe (that can't be carried away) to get more than four handguns... yadda, yada, yadda...

I came to Connecticut (which was then, "GunSlut" heaven)... but two years of Gov Why?ker spoiled that... but we have "Must issue", all permits are full carry, and there are no restricted permist, and you can have as many as you can afford :)

But HCI thinks we're "A-" Ugh!

Pablito <>
Embarassed to get an "A-" in the wrong place... in gun stupid Connecticut, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 14:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yo, Gunslut

I have a few German lurkers that follow in my wake, and we will meet with the other shooters that attended my SSL 2000 Scharfschützen course. We´ll meet in Wolfsburg (VW town) on Sunday.

Hey staff, could we put a German flag on the site with a few words in German and my e mail address. I would then take care of their worries.

Maybe someone else could do the same in Spanish, French, Dutch (Stefan), even Canadian.



t <>
G3 land - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 14:54:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Brother Bill: Phil Gramm, Trent Lott and Orinn Hatch are in the majority within the finance committee. If that bill is reported out of there, I'll eat the next 'yote you shoot, head, hair, innards and all. There are about a dozen hurdles after that. The bill's chances of making it over them are as close to zero as never mind.

CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 15:42:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


I notice you’ve posted since my reply to your rather bizarre tirade against me.

I rather feel that you owe me an apology.

In my experience, those individuals who are unable to apologise when they are in error or unnecessarily rude are either:

Stupid, or
Both the Above.

I’m sure that you are none of those.

Prove it.


Matt <>
UK - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 17:24:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

I vote "Arrogant". Let's have a show of hands ;)
CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 17:54:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wow man. lighten up. I have read most every post here now for a long time and I didn't see anything in Lito's words that were grossly out of proportion with that of the general demeanor of the residing population. This is an obviously opinionated aggressive group of operators and if you thin skin can't take it perhaps you should reevaluate the location.

And while you are making assumptions about the meaning behind certain behavior, perhaps you should consider also that a real sign of insecurity is the feeling you have been attacked when you have not been, OOPS sorry thats paranoid not insecure. My bad. Oh and it has been MY experience that the surest sign of an amature is somone who demands an apology rather than rolling with the punch.

Say your sorry or I'm gonna tell my Mom.

HA HA HA...........!

If you can't run with big dogs stay on the porch.


Yer right it isn't a heaven for pistola holders here in NY at all. It could be worse though. Fact is, an hour south of me I couldn't get a hand gun at all unless it was less than a certain caliber and only for "target shooting purposes." Unless of course I could prove in court that my life was in danger because of my occupation. Truth be told here in Otsego county the judge will issue a concealed carry no restriction permit without question as long as you haven't got a record, so its not too bad right now. It too about 3 months for my permit to get the okie dokie and then you have to go to a day long pistol safety course (mandatory) within 6 months of the date of issue. As for coupons: the pistol clerk at the Sheriff's dept has them at her counter. You go in pay your $3 show your permit and out the door you go, happy as a two peckered dog.

Ok fellers Venus has been sittin on the deck in that thong she just bought (without a coupon) for about ten minutes; talk about a dangerous weapon.

Playin hard to get!

Mars <>
Otsego county is VERY lenient on gun permits compared to most of the counties south of here in , NY, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 18:03:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

The gun grab always comes from something we think won't pass. I didn't think the Brady Bill would pass. When the Republican (Bob Dole)allowed them extra time to badger the one vote they needed into passing it in the back corner I was surprised to say the least.
Alas,I am usually perfect, but this one time I must have made an error in judgement to post that on SC. Don't waste your stamps and comments on this one .... Marius, delete that post and this one if you have time.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 18:42:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
How do you get CLP out of a rifle bore? I'm thinking of a laquer thinner soak.

Oh, Pablo: You're ugly too!

CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 18:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Matt from across the pond: Patron 'Lito didn't do any damage, and as we say here "no blood, no foul". Heck, Kent and I have gone off on eachother WAY worse than that, and we LIKE eachother. This is the way with adults. As Mars said, just roll with it. Just to even things out though, arrogance is often confused with self confidence, and Patron 'Lito has rights to that. He has helped me in my endeavors just as much as anyone else, and he didn't do such because he was arrogant or stupid. Now, lets work on our shooting and not "feelings", shall we?

Brother CDC: my good man, you're a total hoot. However, I concern myself with your culinary feats. Let's not forget that Hatch (yeah, my less than illustrious senator) co-sponsored the last gun control bill with teddy "drown my girlfriend" kenedy. Orrin used to be quite the fighter, now he only fights with the half of his face that doesn't vote. He's been in office WAY too long, as has our governor Bennett. Neither of them are content to go gently into that good night however. The only individual from Utah that I would put any faith whatsoever in is representative Hansen, and with him, only 50% of the time. He's the one that sponsored the bill that would cut ALL aid to Panama if the canal went to anyones hands but the non-existent Panamanian military.
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the British Colonies, now the, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 19:12:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC, out of the 3 Senator's you listed only Phil Gramm would not sell his mother to the DEM's, for a pot of PORRIDGE, Trent Lott is very amicable to deal making, and Orin Hatch should be a Demorat.

He capitulated to the Dem's on the last proposal made, until HIS office got about 20-50K worth of E Mails, and faxes, phone calls.
He had so many , he shut his lines OFF.................then, he had a "CHANGE OF HEART", SO TO SPEAK.

I'm with Wild Bill on this one, and all others, we can't let our guard down for one second.

It's a fact, for every phone call they recieve, they figure there are 20K more people out there, that feel the same way, for every LETTER, hand written, they figure around 100,000 feel the same, but won't take the time to sit and write.( Heat, and continual, is ALL these guy's understand!, KEEP it ON.)

Action when uncalled for, is Far better than inaction when called for, IN the political field..............

Always Vigilant in Texas!!, "DON'T TREAD ON ME!".
two Shoes <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 19:19:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry, I meant Leavitt as Guvner, not Bennett. Got stuck on senators.

Wild Bill, my good friend, you're right on with this one. If people wrote thier representatives to let them know "I know what was proposed in S2099, and I am quite embarassed and ashamed for your incompetence and anti-American values. You may rest assured that my full efforts will be underway to recall you should this even get out of committee" then they would think twice before even uttering that kind of rubbish. The recall election is proven effective. Good side: it's illegal. The Supreme court declared that one can not tax a right in the Jim Crow cases. Firearms ownership, to the surprise of many, is still a right, thus can not be taxed (just like voting). Besides, we need new material to write our representatives about. I'm sure they're getting tired of the same subjects we write about every week or so, right?

CDC: sounds like a job for MEK to me, but freon would be even better. Strips teflon.

Now anyone know if I can get a 1.25" or 1.5" rear sling swivel for an AR standard stock?
Bravo <>
Bravo again?, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 19:32:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo and TwoShoes: Gramm has principles. Witness his stand on HillaryCare. Lott and Hatch have interests. Among those interests are not getting one-way tickets home as would happen it they sent this turkey to the floor of The Senate. They have nothing to gain by voting it out to die an ugly death in this congress. They are busy grand-standing on taxes. I don't trust their principles but I do trust their instincts for self-preservation. This thing goes nowhere until the Dems have a filibuster proof majority. That's 60 senators. Better worry about the empty little balloons they pass of to the gub'ment agencies to blow up later.

CDC <>
HomeworkAndYardWorkDuringElkSeason, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 20:17:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

lurked long and hard before posting gotta know the fed's are monitering this site. WTF no guts no glory!

got archived on my question about the tompson/center encore. Has anyone shot one? love the idea of having a smokepole and centerfire with interchangeable barrels.

hey gooch which Arkansaw river were you hanging by?

I blew out two disks in my spine, does storm mountain have any courses that don't involve PT?

iiiiwanabe <>
Siloam Springs, Ar, USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 20:32:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

'yote bate...
When I said that I didn't think that S-2099 was a threat, I didn't mean for a second, that you shouldn't have posted it. We need to see what, and who is doing what.
Often, a congressman will put up a "POS" bill, that never sees the light of day, and nobody knows about it. If congressmen put something up, and it doesn't pass, I still think they need to be held acountable for their attitude!... keep postin' them puppies!


"I notice you’ve posted since my reply to your rather bizarre tirade against me."

First, it wasn't a bizarre tirade... it was a responce to your tasteless whine... and read the rules at the bottom of this page...
"... and remember... NO WHINING! during your visit"

Nothing worse than "gun guys" that whine...

...and PeteR, and Ken won't let me get mad any more ;)
(the Ther-a-pee is helping... she has great hooters:)

I wouldn't apologize to you on a bet... and here's why.

Your comment was in poor taste, rude and whining to those on this site, because you didn't get an answer to your question... an answer that is available in hundreds, if not thousands, of places.
Because you ask a question, doesn't mean you are "entitled" to an answer... This is not a service bureau for guys to get free answers to questions.
You didn't get an answer because nobody wanted to go look up something like that... go buy a few basic reference books!

Also, remember that you are posting on a site that is 95% USA... that doesn't mean we own it (though it IS run out of a "mega surver" in "Sheep" country, USA). But it does mean that you have to be somewhat aware of other countries internal problems.

Each country has it's issues and social problems that plague some, and please others.
The "Gay" issue has been a hot political issue here, which you SHOULD know, unless you live in a cave.
There are law suits for gays to share the same foxhole and straight military, and currently a suit going so adult men can have sex with little boys who are ten years old... sure it's nuts, but that's our country.

I know we smoke cigarettes, and you guys smoke "fags", but in this country, no matter how you feel about them... "Queer" is now a word that is on par with "Nigger", "Kike", Chink" and a few other choice gems.

There is a tendancy for some to think of the site as a local "Virtual pub" where you can drop in, and say what you want in private... forgetting that there are over 2000 lurkers that hit this site every day.
Many are shooters that are interested, but don't have much to say... others are shy (I know you're out there Carlos Santillio ;)...

But also amoung then are:
Premier Reticals.
and many other gun makers/suppliers.

There are also the other side:
Handgun Control.
Center for Violence Policy
And a whole bunch of others.

So you, and your English attudes and slang, aren't too productive here... we have enough problems as Sniper/Tactical shooters, without being connected to the "Anti-Gay" issue... especially if some loonie does firearm violence to a gay.

"I rather feel that you owe me an apology."

Not a chance! You owe this site an apology, same as the guy that came in talking about "Wetbacks"!... and he had the stones to do it... how about you??... I don't think so!

"In my experience, those individuals who are unable to apologise when they are in error or unnecessarily rude are either:"

If you've been on this site more than a few weeks (go read the Archives, you will learn a lot)... you know that when I'm wrong, I'll appoligize in public, as will Bravo, CDC, UnDude, and most of the other bumz on this site... but if I don't feel I wrong... well...

"Arrogant, Stupid, or Both the Above."
"I’m sure that you are none of those."

Wrong again... I'm arrogant, dumb as a stick, and more...

Plus, as CDC said, I'm ugly too.
I SOOooo ugly, I couldn't get service in a cat house with a fistfull of hundred dollar bills :(

You want to get answers, try some class, you guys over there, are 'posed to have it!

As Mars said... this can be a rough crowd... many are active, or retired military, or police shooters, many more are instructors... this is not the place to whine cuz your feelings are hurt.

It's not "Touchy-Feelie country"

Like Mars made out... You wanna play with "the guys", get some class, and some thick skin, or stay on the pourch!


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, September 04, 2000 at 22:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I figured you'd be use to the British Crown suppressing the rights of those they rule. I'm Irish, so hell, even living on our own land was a right the "civility" of the British seemed to destroy.

I'm out.


Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 00:24:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

To all - Eternal vigilance is the price one pays to maintain one's freedom. You're right about SB2099. It doesn't hurt to "keep informed" about this little pos legislation. Our duly elected leaders, sworn to defend the Constitution, have backdoored us more than once by one or two votes. My bad.

It doesn't hurt to call, write, email your duly elected leaders just to remind them that there are many more with your pov out there and November is just around the corner.

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
BocaRatone, FL, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 00:34:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Matt,

Lay off 'lito I am a quiet lurker and respect his views/insights and he deserves NO bashing here!!.

You want some cheese with that whine!!!

Outta here!!

'lito you have my respect.

Brack <>
USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 01:03:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Free Fire in the National/State forests...for the record I think that would be irresponsible too...BUT, We (read my agency) have to give special regard for horseback riders, mountain bikers, campers, hunters, fishermen, hikers, nature photographers, etc. etc. BUT no regard for SHOOTERS. We can build trails for handicapped people, blacktop roads for fat lazy people that won't get out of their cars to experience nature, but still no ranges on State Lands. Either we are going to be politically correct or not. Either we are going to include every special interest group, or not. I'm not whinning either, just an observation. Every other culture but ours gets catered to. Just a mistake? methinks perhaps not.

I agree with Gooch,(but) and I AM a Ranger, I work on the state forests, I fulfill the the role as "fire management officer", Called Forest Area Supervisor by my agency. But I still think "they" could set aside some land for designation as a range. I proposed user everyone else pays...still "no".

Free fire is never good anywhere, anytime, nohow, NEVER. A designated well marked safe range could be on mars (not ON YOU Mars, the planet) or on private or public lands. No difference.

bs in PA, uh, did you know that natural gas is flammable? just wondering.
Cory <>
PC, FL, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 01:06:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks Lito'; I really do try to keep it relevant and did contemplate that one for a while. I'm kind of like an old Com Chief I knew one time that told me. "Hell, go ahead and cut em off and reroute the traffic~ We can always apologize when it's over!" This gun control problem is not something I can figure out for sure. My rule of of thumb is just give em hell every chance you get.
Mike; yes, we know the watcher's are there and the Encore ain't all that accurate 1.5 to 2 moa usually.
We don't mind them "watching" and criminal activity is reported if it occurs here. The "watchers" just have a job and .... well how do you feel about yours? I'm sure they have the same thoughts we do at times. I like to think they are good people for the most part just trying to keep things within the law.
Every BATF worker isn't a left wing liberal gun grabber either...there are exceptions of course. I hear some can even read the Constitution and the "Bill of Rights". Hope the BATF regulations don't confuse them too much though. I can see how it could happen.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 01:25:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory, I think you've lived back east too long. Out here, free-fire goes on continuously, it's just that the residents obey rule #4 with a vengance. Like CDC stated, as long as you obey that one, nobody cares. The bad time I described was in the LBJ National Grasslands, somewhere it's been illegal to shoot at all for quite a number of years now. One bad apple didn't make the barrel bad, but the bureaus did. BTW, my "personal" range is built on public land, a flood control dam out in the middle of nowhere, but nobody seems to know about it or care.

'Lito: well put amigo. You forgot Glock lurkers. And where do I get some of that ther-a-pee?
Bravo <>
I post too much when I'm sick and home. Sorry, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 01:34:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, It's too flat and dense here in Florida to shoot anywhere I'd like. I can't observe the impact area, I need some thing to shoot into like a berm, etc. While living in Utah I shot alot of places way out in BFE because I could see long distances. While living in Arkansas I observed the same rule as here in Florida. The vegetation is too dense to see where the bullet is going. I can shoot in my yard to 100 yards as I live in BFE myself and I have a berm constructed. It would be nice to have a range facility (legally) on public lands for long range shooting. Chuck just old me on the phone that the Feds have one on the Ocala Nat'l Forest down 'round Gainsville so now I have fuel (ammo?) for an argument at the next staff meeting.

I'm still going to travel your way in the spring to see my daughter we need to shoot together!
Cory <>
Panama , Fl., USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 02:00:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gun Ranges; It's getting to be SOP to appropriate money to build public gun ranges on State Property (Fed's too) out west here. Don't trust it of course. Just another way to get control of shooters and shooting. Don't fall for the Romance or the Funds they offer. Public Gun ranges should be funded by private funds if that isn't some oxy moron. They pass rules against target practice (anyshot that isn't fired under a licensed hunt). And then take over the only place to shoot with their little SXXThouse rules and prohibitions. The Feds out here even leave a "guestbook at their range" Leave your Name, home adr of course and have a great time...... Duh!~Smile your on Candid Camera! (that's not a joke Rio Linda!).
Me too Bravo! It's too hot to go outside.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 02:03:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks, and don't be a lurker ;)

Is your e-mail broke?... and it's TOOOoo late... you gotta be a "new-rot-tic" GunSlut, to get "Ther-a pee"... and PeteR, and Ken, chipped in to send me there... don't tell them he's a "she shrink", they'll want their money back ;)

I just came up from finishing putting a 1/2 degree slope in a set of Martins best 30mm high Badger rings. I got invited to a 1800 yard shoot in two weeks, and I need 130 moa to go the distance, so I cut the inside of front ring down 30 thou, and then lapped both so they were co-axial... but man, what a bummer. I wouldn't want to do it for a living :(

1800 yards (just over a mile) is a big step for me... and most of the guys are shooting 30-378's, and I'm taking the "Black Mamba", and "The Harlot", so getting them little pills out there at 2600-2700 is a bit of a wait... almost 5 seconds to get there, so I think I'm gonna get a big dose of humility in two weeks... but I'll be one of the few guys that doesn't need a new barrel when I get home ;)

Need a nappie, I'm beat.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 02:12:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill, thanks for the info on the encore, sold my ruger, guess my next stop is savage. not down on the feds, my brother in law is FBI. half my family/friends are law inforcement, half teachers.both just getting by.

we're supposed to get a range here in the Ozark nat'l. forest this year.if we're real lucky it will be 100 yds.

thank God it's dove season finally.
iiiiwanabe <>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 02:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm psyched! It's finally happened! The Custom Smith that builds the custom .338 Lapua Mags. for the gun store I work at part time, picked up my action to build my rifle! I chose the McMillan A-2 stock in dark woodland cammo and a 27 1/2 inch K-P #8 contour stainless fluted barrel, I'm getting Badger Ord. base and rings and I'm putting the scope that was on it, back on. It's a Leupold M-3LR. I feel like a little kid waiting on Christmas morning. In fact december is when I get it back!!! This one will be .300 Win Mag. The action is a Winchester M-70 Classic Magnum Action. ( I know I'll hear about that one!!) and It'll wear teflon for a finish. I need to get a digital camera so I can show you guys what it looks like. Chuck is coming over soon, I'll get him to tell you what the .338 LM's are like when he gets to see and shoot one! Man do I have butterfly's!!!
Cory <>
PC, FL, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 03:25:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Matt, you ever go by the name of STEVE? Relax, Pablito would say he was sorry if he thought he made a mistake. One thing to remember is that no one here will kiss your butt, so either flow with it or get out of the current.

CDC, to get CLP out of the bore I use Sweets and JB Bore Compound. I soak with Sweets and scrub with JB. I then take the JB's out with Sweets. I repeat the cycle until nothing comes out. The use some standard Hoppes#9 to get the sweets out and plain gun oil to protect the bore.

On 6x42 scopes for sniping. They used to be more popular because they had better light transmission than the higher power scopes of the time. Now days the ten powers are so good that you do not need to drop down in power to a six. Obviously a six is short on magnification on longrange shooting, compared to a ten power. The US is ten and sixteen power for fixed power field sniping and Europe (because of what they only know why) split between six and ten power for sniping. The only reason for a six power is MOUT and for that reason some of the US guys have VariX3 M1 and M3 Tactical Scopes. Varibles are great for cities and the fixed rules in the field.

Bravo, your AR has 1.25" swivels front and rear. The problem is they are rough so you have trouble getting a 1.5" sling in them(nylon). That is why I suggest 1.25 for AR's.

Mike Miller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 04:33:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Patron Mike: thanks for the clarification. I thought they were 1", been too long since I carried one of those (10 years now!). This'll be a first, but I guess I'll have to lap a sling swivel! HA! Really, on mine, the front will be a unka-mikes QD, the rear I'm assuming will be GI. It'll be here Friday (hopefully), and I can't wait! Already got some 69SMK's loaded just to "see what it'll do". If the rear loop needs cleaning up, I'll just pop it off and have the guys at the machine shop do a number on it for me, they are nice guys and do great work (free). Anyway, anything you send will slide nice when they get through.

Patron 'Lito: shooting at a mile? URK? I can't imagine what kind of backing I would need at a mile to see where I was hitting. The Mamba and the Harlot look REALLY SWEET, I'm dying to hear how it goes! When you did the Badgers, was there any problem with having too little clearance to get the angle in the rings? Sounds like a lapping job from hell!

Patron Dave: Hey, I've not heard you go on about the Chandler rifle yet. You got that already? From talking with Geoff Corn, he said something about working with Norm for many years if I recall correctly. In any case, I'd love to hear about your Chandler rifle. And once again, congrats on Perry!
Bravo <>
all three Patrons, and late night too!, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 04:55:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Reloaders, and shooters too...

Well went shooting Saturday at the Eldorado Gun Club. It only goes to a 100yds but the range is a hop and a skip from me. Anyway, I was burning up some loads that were tested and found a load that I had not tested yet. It was using the Nosler J4 168's. Previously, I had not found a powder combination with this slug that actually shot well. Typically it shot 5 shots in a group of 3/4" or better.And I used the following powders: Varget, H335, H380, BL-C-2, WW-748, and IMR 4064. None would group even after load tuning in my rifle.
Well I discovered in a box of experimental loads 20 round loaded with 40.0gr of H4895, 10 in Winchester brass the rest Federal.
I shot a 10 shot group that was less than 1/2"! A five shot group that measured .362"! So, I am going to try and see if the Sierra SMK 168's will do better!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 05:28:17 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thank you for your insightful and valuable briefing on US politics.

It is interesting that you feel you have nothing to apologise for. In 2.5 years officer training (that’s officer as in ‘Army’) I have only had to back-squad one individual; his major failing was an inability to perceive –or admit- when he was in error.

Leaving aside the more puerile remarks of your sycophants; it is also interesting to note their, and your, confusion that this is a ‘feelings’ issue. It clearly is not.

As I implied in my opening paragraph, the ability to perceive and admit error is an essential element in the professional development of both individuals and groups. Unless one recognises error, how can one correct it -and drive on to achieve greater things?

(Don’t misunderstand me here, being ‘Gung-Ho’ has it place in the operational / training environment. But there is a time and a place (for example, when briefing -and subsequently leading- troops on a coup-de-main op).)

Time to look in the mirror:

Do you not find it odd that my question received 2 or 3 helpful replies from ‘regulars’ on the site to your one tirade?

Do you not think that a mature and professionally minded individual would reflect and find it easy to put their hand up and say words to the effect: “My reaction was unnecessarily over the top; I apologise.”

I do.

Moving on; you make extensive reference to the hidden lurkers on the site.

Read these 2 quotes from comments emailed to me privately, with reference to our little discussion, by ‘lurkers’:

“I used to post on the DR, but no longer engage in that masochistic behavior! I still lurk on the site because there often is a wealth of information buried amongst the bullshit. For instance…”

“SC is worth staying with, if just for the knowledge that one can glean, provided one can learn to ignore the assholes who seem to believe that they control the site.”

I agree; it is a great shame that this site is marred by the propensity of some individuals –who probably have much technical info that they could use to help others -to launch bullying (I use the word in a derogatory sense) verbal attacks from the safety of their keyboards.

Armchair Commandos? –Probably.



Matt <>
UK - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 11:31:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


I'm telling the Doc to up the voltage a bit, just cuz she looks kinda like Barb Wire, doesn't mean she won't follow directions. "In your best interests, I raised the amperage too Mr Coburn" ;-)

Lighten up on Mr. Matt, the wild atmosphere generated here on The Roaster from time to time might be a bit much for him.
+ He does ask sensible questions now and then......



Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 12:53:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


Your vocabulary is clearly expansive and is equaled only by your ability to articulate your non-point.

The Head Master would be proud of you.

The problem you are having here has little to do with anything other than your inability to recognize that as adults and professionals it is ok to not be in agreement on a wide range of issues; including the perceived tone of a fellow reader's/ writer's contributions.

Some advise, which is about as useful as wet toilet paper, but I don't mind sharing it. Stiffen up that British chin of yours and as I mentioned in a past posting roll with the punches. I realize that the English are historically, chronicly (superficially) trapped in the pleasantries of cordial conversation but we here in the breakaway republic you guys call the "colonies" are not so dainty.

Who cares if lito's response to you was "rude." If you don't like it make some choices: live with it, leave the site for a more friendly one, recognize that indeed there is some good info amoungst the BS and just lurk, or (and this is my preferrence) accept the fact that an apology would only come from you or lito or any other person here if they perceived they were wrong, not be cause anyone demanded it. No one here is the politness police. Suck it up, ignore the obvious quagmire you have waded into and stay with the site and its people. Give and take the worthwile stuff and be entertained by the crap.

And I gotta just say this real quick cause its ithcing my ass. 2.5 years in officer training carries as much water with me as a fishnet. Ten years as a non-comm in US Army SOG taught me a few things about what 2.5 or 4 years in officer training will do for me when that wanna-be hits my team. It means now I got some kid with a bunch of BS book smart ideas who needs to learn some real time realities about what gets my men out of a job with all their parts and brings them home to their kids or wife. Oh yeah and I also have to teach them how to correctly read a map and use weapons they only get to read about while at "the academy." But boy do those guys have some good manners! HA!!!!

Play Hard or stay home!


Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 13:02:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Amen, bro!!

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 13:06:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone have the current e mail of Ruger Russ Taylor ?

he would really enjoy this site the way it is now !

why dont you just e mail your personal problems to each other and keep the static off line please.

thank you

torsten <>
g3land - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 13:07:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mars: as an "academy boy", I'll agree. Surprised? Oh, but here's a WONDERFUL story: one of my really great good friends was light infantry. He was told to dig in and hold a hill (Sgt) with 2 squads in an FTX against "hostile" Brit forces. As the Brit forces advanced, they did what they should have (to ANY "enemy" on FTX) and popped them (MILES) one by one until they retreated. This angered their Major somewhat, which was then transferred to my friend through proper channels, who was told that his job was to lose. Well, the Brits wouldn't come out and play, so finally my friend ordered his two squads to burn ammo. When they were out, and obviously so, the Brits charged. HA!

Matt, er Steve, er, Comic Releif: I'll match your years in officers training and up you a couple, with some experience to boot. 'Lito says what he means. If you're a touch on the infantile side, don't let it bother the rest of us. You're welcome, as is everyone, to post. And please remember, it's quite easy to be misunderstood on the keyboard. Just ask Wild Bill to give an example AGAIN. Or read the archives, where you'll find a BUNCH of good stuff, including 308 versus 300 WM ballistics!
Bravo <>
I wasn't gonna post, but I was "provoked", USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 13:28:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Matt: We all know big words. One of my favorites is "Supercilious", but I seldom use it. Rather than wading stupidly into this swamp, let's all just back-off and have a laugh.

I've slugged it out with half the guys on this site and would share my last canteen with any of them.

You're fine. Pablo's fine. If you met in person you'd be mates or blokes or something.

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 13:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello everybody !

I am still undecided between Leupold, Kowa 61X-series and US Optics spotting scopes. A Kowa 611 (angled housing) plus 25 LER eyepiece and extra waterproof cover for the eyepiece costs around 500 USD. A Leupold 25X50 costs roughly 460 USD, with mildots 599 USD from Premier. A Leupold 16-40X60 costs around 650 USD and with mildots 899 USD. A US Optics in basic attire costs something like 500 USD but with different options you can increase the price very much.

As I am a civilian/reservist who buys these out of pocket for non-serious work I would like to have some suggestions about the best scope and whether mil-dots really are needed or not in a spotting scope. Also weight and size is an issue as is eye-relief. This scope will be used also in the shooting range out to 300 meters. In the field it will be used out to 9-1000 meters.

Plus for mil-dots: Two persons ranging the same target decreases the risk of mistakes in measuring. Minuses for mil-dots: They are expensive, clutter the picture and in Leupolds you can not remove them. With US Optics you can replace another ocular (with extra cost of course ).

What do you think ? Is Leupold the only way to go or are US Optics or Kowa viable options ? How rugged and waterproof does a scope have to be ? Is USO spotting scope waterproof ?

How important do you feel is the zoom ocular ? With Leupold I can have it but that scope weights and is very expensive. If I have a fixed ocular like 25 LER, does one have problems with it when there is much mirage around ?

KISS method would say : Leupold 25X50 without mildots. Kowa 611 would have more flexibility in civilian life with an extra ocular. USO seems to be a good scope too, so do you have any preferences ? The 16-40X60 Leupold is out of my reach with mil-dots but I would like to have an opinion of the scope itself.

Lots of questions but probably some people have went trough the same thought process at one point of time. Tell the rest what you think is a good solution.


Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 13:41:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have been gone for awhile and trying to catch up on the Roster and must have missed you and 'litos posts back and forth, so I don't know what was said or inferred. I would hope that you would take into consideration that the printed word does not always come across the way that we mean it to. I have made joking remarks, at times, that when I have reread it, it may have come across as a wise ass remark if not taken in the proper contex. We all have made an agreement to not "Flame" each other when we disagree about a topic. I have never met most of the guys on this sight but consider many to be my friends and 'lito is one of them. We have e.mailed back and forth and I have sold him a couple of stocks and he has reworked a trigger for me that was screwed up by a gunsmith and charged me nothing. I don't always agree with him or Bravo or Mike or Bill but thats what makes this sight what it is and I have learned from them all. If we all liked and agreed on the same things this would get to be real boring. How will you learn if you don't discuss or argue back and forth?? I would hope that you can put aside, whatever it was, that you felt was inapproiate and continue to contribute to the sight. We have lost to many good people who have left because they felt that someone was picking on them or they didn't like it when someone didn't agree with their views. Yes there are some of the "Regulars" who seem to contirbute more or "Run" the sight but I think it belongs to us all and Marius and Pete and Sarge do a good job of keeping it up. I know 'lito doesn't need defending but if you go back through the archives you will see that he is one of the first ones to help out when someone has a problem he is very knowledgable and yes, sometimes can be "Testy" but then can't we all??
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 13:52:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
If I were to buy a semi-auto reciever to build upon, and the serial # on the reciever was pre-ban, would I be permitted to assemble the rifle as pre-ban? Also, if the serial # was pre-ban could I build upon a foreign reciever? I'm trying to assemble a decent G3 and not have Janet Reno send her goons to burn down my house! ;} The US built recievers seem to be lacking in quality, and I don't have the funds available to sink into an HK. For logistical reasons I'd like my battle rifle to fire the same caliber round as my sniper rifle. Thanks everyone!!
Cory and I are still taking ideas and comments for a southern shoot.

Did you get to the range in Palm Bay? Let me know if you did, and how it was. Thanks for the info on the HCI report.

Was machts du?

Semper Fi!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 14:56:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Before this thing goes farther everyone knock it off! Agree to disagree and go to your seperate corners. As James Jarrett has said "Good men can disagree and still be friends". Pablito and I disagree daily but he is a good man.

as to regulars running this site, you will find several guys who try and answer questions when they are asked. If you disagree or have something to add please do so. That is how we all learn. If you sit on your hands you add nothing.

Mars, not to pick on officers, but the difference between most Officers and Sergeants is Officers refer to the troops as "The men" and Sergeants refer to the men as "Us". Same thing goes in Police Work, Sergeants run and fix what damage the new Officers do. LOL
Sorry Stan, I could not resist. No offense meant.

On the spotting scope thing. I have seen the US Optics and it has optics better than the 600 series Kowa, but like the KOwa it is too big for field use. Leupold rules for field use. Hopefully US Optics will come out with a smaller version. The one they have now is about 500.00 for a fixed power with mildots. It is light but not armored.

Something was asked about the use of a Springfield Scope on a 50 Cal. I have a fixed power Springfield on a Barrett MD99 and have shot over 500 rounds through it. Only problems so far is the lit reticle feature stopped working before the first round was fired. Optic quality is fair and not up to US Optics, Nightforce, BxL, IOR, SxB, or Leupold.

A FAVOR PLEASE: anyone with a good quality photo of a USMC Sniper Scope that I can use please email me. The last ones I took for an article came out with sun spots on them and I need to send the article out. The scope is now 500 miles away, so it would be tough and costly to take more. You will get credit for the photos.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 15:58:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

SB 2099,
I was told that since this is an amendment to the IRS Act of 1986 that only the Finance Committee has to vote on it. I would feel better it had to go to the floor for a vote. When things happen behind close doors I get nervous. I thought that there was a specific law prohibiting the U.S. Government from creating or maintaining a registry of guns. If anyone knows the specific bill or reference number please let me know. We all know that is the purpose of NICS, but I thought it would at least keep the IRS out of my safe.

There are more current and former military/LE on this site than not. You will not impress anybody with your qualifications. You have to earn respect here by being respectful and knowledgeable. There is significant disagreement on most issues here, but gentlemen can agree to disagree and discuss without insulting each other.

In Texas, if you have a concealed carry permit then the FFL just writes the number on the back of the yellow sheet and you get your gun. There are no phone calls or coupons required.

Does anybody know anything about Sako rifles? I removed my new Sako TRG-S from the stock and I don't know what the torque specs are for the action screws. The action screws are also flat head, does anybody know where to get hex head screws?

I start Citizen's Police Academy tonight. For those who don't know, it is a community relations program put on by local PD to tell what they do. It should be fun.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 16:51:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck - If you get a legitimate pre-ban lower receiver you are allowed to build it up into a gun with pre-ban features ONLY if the receiver had been previously assembled into a complete weapon OR had all the parts available to do so ON OR BEFORE 9-14-94. Otherwise, even if it is a pre-ban serial # receiver, you will have to build it in post-ban configuration.

Ooooooooooohhhhhhhh look! An "evil" bayo lug! Everyone ruuuuunnnnnn!

Gotta run. Will write later about Palm Bay - outstanding!!!

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 17:05:14 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have now backed off. I remain on listening watch.

(However,I can't stop myself from pointing out that part of the first paragraph of my last post should have read:

'Having trained officers for the last 2.5 years'

I now have as many hairs on the palms of my hands as my Sergeant Majors!)

Good story, who won?
That, my boy, is manoeuvre warfare.

All the best

Matt <>
UK - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 17:30:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Matt: I've spent enough time in your country that I often pronounce the metal al-you-minnie-yum, my choice of beer is 80 shilling, and slightly cooler than room temp (because Lucas makes refrigeration systems too! HA!), and I've had the priveledge to be thrown out of a good Scottish pub, and my favorite scotch is Glen Fiddich as well. Still got a half bottle of British Naval issue rum in the cupboard to boot, given to me as a gift from a you-know-what. That having been said to illustrate that I have NOTHING against the empire, the goal of the story was to illustrate that the Brit troops wouldn't charge until their opponents (my friend's troops) were forced to expend all their ammunition into the trees. In my mind, this has NOTHING to do with maneuver warfare, but rather a lack of wanting to lose or sustain "casualties" in war games. As difficult as it is to admit, I learned quite a bit from him, Army light infantry has very sound tactics. Given the odds, I would have put a hundred pounds (which I still have) on my friends two squads against the infantry company "for real". This having been said, please don't relegate yourself to lurker status. No call for that. Hey, this is just a little tiff, nothing to run ANYONE off for. I wish you nothing but the best.
Bravo <>
I'm really trying to back off, no, really!, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 17:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks for the tips. You're correct, Governor, the business e-mail address threw me. Do you know about the use of pre-ban foriegn recievers? Legal to use or not? I'm more interested in the use of a Portugese reciever, not the bayo-lug or flash supressor.

That's Sergeants Major. Now I'll stop being a jerk.

If Moe's right about the range, maybe we could make a trip to Brevard County. You could visit the in-laws.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 18:08:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


I would be disappointed if you went to lurk status. Fact is soldier; punches were delivered in all directions and to your credit you have weathered it and delivered some accurate heat as well. That manner of man has earned his presence and all should note it as such.

Indeed, I would bet that all the BS word-smithing that went on has left most with no idea what your original question was. I would be first to admit that. And perhaps due to all of the nancy-boy semantics over keyboard tone, there has quite possibly been a loss of useful information that could well have come from your question.

Stay and please feel free to bring an educated non-American perspective to the table. We all will be better for it. I don't know what yer drinkin but should we meet, the Guiness (my personal favorite) is on me.

Play hard and make this your home!


Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 18:55:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Streamlining the roster

It seems to me that many new people ,just stumble on to the roster and post a simply question.with their eyes on the NAME and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, boxes in the middle of the page, not knowing, they have just slid across a few of the most important lines in the roster
Hot Tips and Cold Shot , which is a cryptic way of writing Frequently ask questions /rifles/ammo/ scopes /and everything else. The dark red print under it , may not be as helpful as it
was intended to be, normally this would be used in an ad , your mileage may vary,,, only one at this price ,, not FDIC insured ,, your results may be different.

Perhaps a start here arrow, flow chart , I don’t know. renaming it Frequently as Questions,would reduce keyboard work for all, perhaps reducing the confrontations ,that are slowly turning the inf. filled roster,into just another puss-pocket of humanity.

The thread format of other sites is better, to compress and organize posts of like subjects,not having to drill through 30 posts to find
the answer or question, because time zones, work schedules, posting times ,But I am sure there is more than meets the eye on format set up and the like.

Just a few thoughts , with my limited grasp of the obvious , Trying to help make a great site better.I will pile the sand bags high and pull the manhole cover over the hole , back to lurking.

Hans K. <>
Californication, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 20:03:08 (ZULU) (your host address:


As far as the Lupita/Kowa/USO decision you have to make, here are my lilited spotting scope experience.

When I worked the Range on Camp Pendleton, most of the spotting scopes they had were Kowa. ( I think because they had a deal through Creedmore Sports) The optics were good and I was pleased with the light transmittance.

For Leupold, I own a couple of their scopes, which I love ( viva los MK4 M3) and have tinkered with one of there spotting scopes, I like their rifle scopes more than their spotters.

As far as USO, I have used one of their rifle scopes, though never one of their spotting scopes. If their spotting scopes are as good as their rifle scopes, spend the x-tra dough and go with the USO, they make some great glass.

Personally, I still love the good old trusty M49

As far as the mil-dot vs no mil-dot on the spotting scopes, if you want good, accurate, low-tech range estimation on your spotting scopes, go with the mil-dot plain and simple or get yourself a pair of binos with a mil-based range finding reticle

Later dudes

Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 22:29:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh yeah,

Mars, being a fellow NY resident, have you heard any more on that assault weapons garbage that Pataki is trying to push through the Legislature? I am not having to bury my stuff!

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 22:34:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

So Undude,
How are the 50's shootin'? I've been outta the country a bit, and was wondering how your projects were coming along. We tried some of the SA scopes on the .50's. They held up pretty good, the illuminated reticle bit the dirt pretty fast, but overall decent scopes. Still would rather have the MK4's.
The 338 Lapua is going to get a workout in Canada next week for the Sniper HoDown that the RCMP puts on. We will put out the semi, along with a bolt gun probably in late Feb early Mar.
Outta here.
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 22:56:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
I presently shoot a 308 and want to acquire something with a lot more power and distance capabilities but don't want a 27 lb 50 cal. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Nick <>
slc, ut, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 23:04:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Two Shoes:
Since I just bought a Rem 700 Police, I wrote to Remington about the problem you mentioned with possibly bad chambers being shipped on some of their rifles. Their response was "We are not aware of any problems with our rifle chambers." They also directed me to their warranty information site. Do you have any further info on this or was your source perhaps trying an increased dosage level of Ritalin with bad results?

Chuck (and anyone else in Florida):
Drove up to Palm Bay Monday to visit the "Port Malabar Rifle & Pistol Club" which I heard had some 100+ yard ranges. This place is far and above anything I am aware of in south Florida. It's located maybe 45 minutes south of the Kennedy Space Center. It is a private, members & guests club with about 1,500 members and NRA affiliated. The facility sits on about 150 acres 10 minutes off of I-95 and adjacent to the local LE gun range. They even have Miami LE making the trip to use the place (gotta be a 3 hour drive).

They have facilities for highpower rifle, smallbore rifle, pistol, blackpowder, class 3, IPSC, trap, skeet, sporting clays and air rifles. I think the only thing they don't allow is .50BMG types. Their facility is also used for several regional shoots during the year.

Smallbore - 25, 50 and 100 yards.

Pistol - 25 and 50 yards.

Highpower - 25, 100, 200, 300 and 600 yards with cantilever targets.

Membership is $50 per year, NRA membership mandatory, one time initiation fee of $160.

This place is 2 hours from my home but it offers much more than any other outdoor range down here. I am planning on sending in my application shortly. I will still go to the "local" 100 yard range for convenience.

Website is

Let me know if you have any questions.

Briefly went to your website. Looks interesting enough to make me go back for a better looksee.

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
it'ssunnykinda, FL, USA - Tuesday, September 05, 2000 at 23:12:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tony: Are you talking about the Canadian Armed Forces sniper get together held in CFB Gagetown being held next weekend? Perhaps you are refering to a separate event. If so, that's quite a coincidence.

Several well known companies will be attending this event in CFB Gagetown. I'm just curious if your's will be one of them.

Jeff Babineau <>
Canada - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 00:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe, The site is owned by Mark Mullins who owns and operates Marx Armory/Gun Fun. The first is the Class three side of the business and the last is the indoor range. I work there part time as a range officer, (weekends) and on the showroom. Come up with Chuck and have a gander at our wares....when looking at the site please remember that it has not been updated in awhile.

Chuck, that would be cool with me. We could shoot at gateway again and then travel to shoot with Moe the next day! Moe?

Bravo....warm beer? Ick. It's unamerican dude! My brother married a German girl and now he drinks warm german beer( shudder). And he moved to Zurich Switzerland! Warm beer..I'm going to hurl.

Chuck, we need to go shoot at Benning..soon! they have several lanes that go to 1000 yards. Small groups are fun, but I want to shoot at varying ranges. We could meet there and then go visit Ranger Joe's and U.S. Cav. store afterwards!!!!!!!! ROAD TRIP!!!!!
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 01:21:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lets all take a big boy breath and a biiiiiggg group hug. Cleansing breath.....ahhhh now back to talking about head shots and shit.
Gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 01:47:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
MEK(methylethylketone)is BAD stuff for YOU !!!! Avoid any contact with this compound if at all possible.I think I'd rather have CLP in my bore than MEK in my brain pan.Read an msds sheet on this stuff before using it or any other chemical that may be a contact/airborn hazzard.That pesky teflon may not be such a problem after all.Just shoot it and quit putting that crap in it.
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 01:48:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
Matt's quote: "'Having trained officers for the last 2.5 years'
I now have as many hairs on the palms of my hands as my Sergeant Majors!)"

Matt, You are to be congratulated!

But seriously, how do I know when I've gotten all the CLP out of the bore?

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 01:55:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bruce: I'm a professional chemist, and have been such for the last decade, working for somewhat intense companies such as NASA and the Center for Chemical Characterization. I wouldn't suggest anything to my partner that I wouldn't do myself. I've worked with literally most all of the EPA superfund bad chemicals for years (the BEST one is a carcinogen/toxin). And to top it off, when I was doing undergrad work, we cleaned our glassware with toluene because it was fine at the time ;-) MSDS's are always WAY overboard, if you don't believe me, check out the MSDS for "ultrapure water". You'll find that it's a super hazard too. Don't drink MEK, and use it in a well ventilated area. Besides, it makes your coffee bitter! HA!
Bravo <>
now you know the secret of my beer!, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 02:12:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
I'm sure not a chemist and will take your word on this matter.I do however have a healthy respect for residual chemical effect,as I'm sure you do as a professional and avoid un-necessary contact with things that may or may not be good for you.I would not expect you to hand out information that would be harmful if properly applied.Proper application is the key.

If you can't tell if it's gone,how do you know it's a problem.I put CLP on/in every gun I own for years until I read here that I shouldn't.I quit and the guns still shoot better than I do.If you are shooting them the stuff has got to go away eventually(just in time for that new barrel)
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 02:57:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anybody know if Frankfort Arsonal 1943 30-06 is corrosive or not?

or what the cut-off date for clorate primers is?


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 03:15:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito' I think 1943 is OK. But don't know the date for sure. I've never had anything past 41 that went sour on me.
Matt' Ole chap, I'm so back woods redneck sit down ignorant I don't even know what you said or what it's all about but don't run off.
IF I'm a synophant I apologize... is there anything I can take for it?
I think my cousin Earl had that once. This all hurts my brains... I'm gonna go kill a Wapatti tomorrow.
Bravo; your so right! I still miss that woman......geee!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 04:00:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking to purchase a sniper rifle and would like to keep the price tag under a $1000 (that is not including the scope, mounts, and etc.) I would like any suggestion you might have for me. I have been looking at the Savage 10FP and the Remington 700PSS. I have tried to find and read as many articles on both guns as I could. I have not read anything bad about either gun. I have even read that the guns are equal in preformance. Is this true? If it is why is the Savage $300 cheaper than the Remington? I would also like your opinion on a good sniper scope and mounts.

Michael Rinn <>
Akron, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 06:14:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike Rinn, We beat this issue to death pretty often. Before somebody else jumps on you, check out the archives. There is a ton of great info about just the comparison you are asking about.
I would say go with Remington. I would even prefer a used Rem. over a Savage, but that is just me. You can also get some great deals on the Emporium and stretch your gun dollar even farther! Do some sniffing around.....

Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 06:29:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for thoughts and comments on a 40X .308 that is not shooting as good as I think it should. This rifle used to shoot 1/4 inch groups with facotry Rem. match ammo out of the original barrel. The barrel was shot out and replaced with a Kreiger 26 inch SS barrel with a 1 in 11 twist. I broke in the barrel using the formula supplied by Krieger. I shot it off a bench using sandbags at 100 yards. I used Rem., Win., and Fed., 168 gr factory match ammo. The best I could do was 1/2 inch with the Fed. The Win. measured 1 inch! Action screws were tight. It doesnt have aluminum pillars, but I built up pillars using Steel Bed Epoxy and bedded the rifle with the same. I used steel pins, and latex bands to hold the rec. to the stock (McMillan) instead of the action screws to hold it while the bedding cured. The front and rear of the reciever rest on the bedding, the middle floats. I have 2 1/2 inches of bedding under the barrel in front of the recoil lug, I masked off the front and sides of the recoil lug, just the rear touches the bedding. After all this I expected it to shoot as before maybe a little better. What do you guys think? How can I measure if the receiver is stressed? Did I miss something? Thank you for any insight you can give me.

roberto ordonez <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 06:30:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for thoughts and comments on a 40X .308 that is not shooting as good as I think it should. This rifle used to shoot 1/4 inch groups with facotry Rem. match ammo out of the original barrel. The barrel was shot out and replaced with a Kreiger 26 inch SS barrel with a 1 in 11 twist. I broke in the barrel using the formula supplied by Krieger. I shot it off a bench using sandbags at 100 yards. I used Rem., Win., and Fed., 168 gr factory match ammo. The best I could do was 1/2 inch with the Fed. The Win. measured 1 inch! Action screws were tight. It doesnt have aluminum pillars, but I built up pillars using Steel Bed Epoxy and bedded the rifle with the same. I used steel pins, and latex bands to hold the rec. to the stock (McMillan) instead of the action screws to hold it while the bedding cured. The front and rear of the reciever rest on the bedding, the middle floats. I have 2 1/2 inches of bedding under the barrel in front of the recoil lug, I masked off the front and sides of the recoil lug, just the rear touches the bedding. After all this I expected it to shoot as before maybe a little better. What do you guys think? How can I measure if the receiver is stressed? Did I miss something? Thank you for any insight you can give me.

roberto ordonez <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 06:34:25 (ZULU) (your host address:


I was looking at Fulton's web site and they have a page that lists old ammo and if it is corrosive or not:

I hope that helps.

Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 07:48:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks Dude.
I have some '06 AP I wan't to test.

I once lost a fine .375 H&H to British Kynock ammo... shot in the morning (Hot, August himid day), and by the time I got home, the bore was lost :((
What are you doing up this time in the morning... I gotta go (the money thing), See ya' later.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 11:04:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Michael Rinn: Check the emporium. If Ken hasn't sold his PSS, buy it. If he has, buy Pat's rig.

Brother Bill: You're safe.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 12:10:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

MIKE with the PD near San Francisco:

I lost your email and have more stuff for you. If you want it, email me.

jeff waters <>
VT, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 12:13:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would also assume that you put several layers of tape on the "Bottom" of the recoil lug also is this correct??? If not you may have a problem. When you tighten the action down into the stock if you don't have the proper clearance it will cause the action to bind. You can check to see if the action is binding by holding the rifle with your hand wraped around the barrel close to the end of the end of the stock and loosen the front action screw and if you feel any movment betweent the barrel and the stock you have a bedding problem. The next thing to check is to be sure the bolt is not touching the stock when it is closed. You should be able to run a dollar bill all around it. I would also be sure that the holes are drilled out bigger than the action screws where they go through the stock if not this can also cause you problems. If all this checks out then try hand loading for it or just shoot it and don't worry about it, if its shooting .5s thats way better than you need for tactical shooting. Good luck!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 13:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks for the info on the range in Palm Bay. I know the area where the range is located. I have an ex-girlfriend right down the street.

Have you looked into the magnum or safari loads? The good thing about .308 and .300 WinMag is the plethora of info on loads, trajectory, etc. Also, the heavier safari loads tend to be too heavy to shoot at extended ranges. Maybe a .378 or.460 Weatherby Mag, or look into the .338 Lapua. You should be able to be able to build up a major manufacturer's long action and find a decent selection of accessories for one of those calibers. Ask Cory about the .338 Lapua, the store that he works in has one on the shelf.

Governor B,
A chemist? Wow yu musta be one of them real smart tipes. Shud I stop drinkin rubbin alcahal? Sorry.

My info book on calibers is a bit dated and has nothing on the Lapua, maybe you could enlighten Nick and I about the weights, trajectory, power, etc. TIA. A road trip? I'm up for one. I've never been to Benning, and haven't shot at any distance for quite a while.

Semper Fi!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 13:32:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

For those of you attending the rendezvous at Storm Mountain this month, if you haven't obtained blanks for your .308 rifle yet, I am offering to sell 50 of my 100 unit minumum order for exactly what I paid for them.

That's a whopping $1.65 (US dollars) for five .308 blanks.

I purchased the blanks from for $25 + $8 shipping (minimum 100 pc order)...they are high quality and I'm just looking to make life easier.

I am making ZERO on this deal... I just don't have a use for one hundred blanks....

I'll have them with me for the train up and the rendezvous, so just look for the guy with the 'Jersey' accent that answers to "Jim"....
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 18:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck, I'll be at the range this evening, it's steel night and I need to go bang on a gong for awhile. I will check on the .338 LM info for you and post it here. We now have two .338 LM's in stock, both are beautiful. Very well made custom rifles...I still need to find a digital camera to show these rifles to all on the Roaster. Power of the .338 LM? Well you could take some 1500-1600 yard head shots with it! (yuck yuck, LOL). More power is better!! (Tim Allan animal grunts inserted here...)

Bravo...a chemist? Cool dude, we could get some...nah, I won't say it here. But I'm havin' evil thoughts!!!

Cory <>
Grayallday, Fl, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 18:24:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory and Chuck: yup, that's me. And why I have minimal fear of armor. Ever see a small coffee cup of thermite "fall" through 3" of solid aluminum, and then 1" steel plate without visibly slowing at all from freefall? Imagine what someone could do with a Soviet T-44 (er, whetever the chi-coms are driving these days) and a Coke can full right over the magazine ;-) Call it a 20th century molotov! For now though, it's more "pure" interests. Bravo Brew.
Bravo <>
looking forward to Havana nights, where freedom will ring again, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 19:01:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Question for the Roster.

If you had only 10 items to pack for a mission, what would it be in order of importance.


torsten <>
germany - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 19:35:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

t. (top ten)

not enough intel...
what is the mission?

Bravo...why attack the hard armor when it's full of soft humans...c'mon, a truly devious chemist could come up with something (reach deep and show some of that American ingenuity)...think Ca++ disruption, organophosphates, deep lung irritants...

or combustion engine "additives"....or what we call "ConEd Med" here in the tri-state area (drop a 14KV power line ...ouch)..

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 20:48:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


Your exact question is impossible to answer. The ten things I might need on a mission would depend on the mission. Bye design this business is dynamic and what applies to todays job has no use on the next.

Additionally, the packing list would be adjusted based on the individual operator. Given operation X I will bring along items based on a lot of variables; such as my experience with similar ops, my personal needs regarding comfort, my weapon type my team size the geography, weather, availability of edibles (natural or other) and so on. This list grows exponentially the more you look at it.

Yours is a difficult question as it is. Now I would suggets that there are certainly 10 things we all would likely have in common if we were all together and dumped our rucks, right now in a surprise inspection.

Good question to get guys thinkin about their jump bags though. I know I suddenly started the mental inventory.

Play Hard!
But don't bring too much crap thats not edible or that you can't shoot at a bad guy.

Mars <>
You are always on a mission when you live in , NY, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 20:48:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Was ist los? Ich Maches nichts.

At the risk of getting tarred and feathered by these more active guys (I've been out of the field a decade now). Here's my list, figuring uniform and 782 gear provided.

1. Combat knife
2. Weapon system
3. Ammunition
4. Water
5. Socks
6. MRE
7. Comm
8. 1st Aid Kit
9. Poncho/liner
10. Pistol

Go ahead and flame me guys. I've got broad shoulders.

Why are Lee presses so much less expensive than the others? Are they alot poorer quality? I'm going to start reloading and their's seems to be the best buy.

Semper Fi!!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 21:03:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim: junior thesis was on acetocholine cycle inhibitors and their functional groups. It was nasty. Besides, what's wrong with a 12,000 degree ball hitting a magazine and fuel cell?

Friend Torsten: I agree, can't do from what you put out. But a fun mental exercise!
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 21:42:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ten things, hmm.
Rifle, 8 rounds of ammo, combat knife.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 21:46:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the Fulton tip... the stuff I have IS corrosive. BRAVO... on that '43 FA "AP", we gotta talk ;))

The lee has a bad rep.
There are guys that use them, and think they're OK, but most users are dissatisfied.
Lee's "warrentee" is you send it back, with 50% (of the "list" price"), and they will replace it.
HA... 50% of list is what they sell it to dealers for, so it's broke, and they're just selling you another one at their usual price... you're just buying a new unit from them, on their "warrentee":((

Look at Dillon... they warrentee everything for ever... no questions, no money, no Nada... it broke, they replace it! Even if you bought it used, or found it in the dump... it's broke, send it to them, and they fix it, or replace it.

Also look at RCBS, and Redding... both companies that few, if any, will fault.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 21:51:36 (ZULU) (your host address:


Hey Shooter,

I think your right but do ya mind this one modification?

7 rounds of ammo
1 Ka Bar
1 condom................Hey ya never know and all work and no play makes Mars a dull boy. Double HA!!!!!

Play Safe!

Mars <>
Can't find ten universally useful things in, NY, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 22:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Torsten: I guess I have to assume I'm in uniform have my ruck and just taking items to complete a mission.(?)

Rifle w/scope
More Ammo
More Water
Grenades, Frag/Incendiary...As many as I can carry.
C-4 w/time fuses
My wife

Cory <>
STILLRAINING!, Fl, USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 22:08:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Got to have SOME kind of operations order. Give us a hint.

Good one.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 22:42:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ten Things

1) RIFLE, EIS (bayonet, mags, cleaning kit) AND AMMO
2) Water
3) Food
4) Compass and Map
The next six depends upon your mission.

Can you give us some sort of Warning Order for brief specifics
hey they are supposedly NATO standard (except you Americans)
Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 23:27:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo....Very elegant, I like that, burn through the armor with a BEER can loaded with thermite. Although I like the fuel additive idea. Kind of like what OSS did to german trains in WWII. Explosive coal.
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Wednesday, September 06, 2000 at 23:32:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
Andy's got his new glass and mounts. He's tickled as you might imagine. One phone call to Premier Reticle and we had what we needed in 24 hours. I see no need to deal with any other vendor when we need glass from now on.

To Badger Ord. : Why not put a little instruction sheet in with the tapered bases telling the user two of the mounting screws need to be shortened? It would be helpful.

What's the current status of the .408 Cheytac? It was written up in the May issue of TS. I need a new project. (I think I can get a home equity loan.)

Ten things to take on a mission: Ten guys from 2-75th. ;-)

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 00:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


HOOOOAAAHHHH!!!!!! to the 2/75th guys although if ya brought a couple a guys from my old outfit (Ranger Regimental HQ) you could leave behind two so they can take some home leave. HA! Course they wouldn't want to if they had a choice of goin on a job or checkin in with Mommy.

I'm thinkin that so far we have pretty much all hit some pretty common items. That enougth for ya Torsten?

Play Hard and hump yer own sh$T!

Mars <>
Still tryin to find ten things to bring from , NY, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 00:53:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ten things, Hmmmmmm?

#1 Radio
#2 Map & compass
#3 Good sturdy knife
#4 water
#5 Weapon
#7 Frags & smokes
#8 sling rope
#9 Rescue gear pack ( strobe, mirror & flare )
#10 Food

Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 01:28:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Michael's tip to go to Fulton's web site was good, but there is a little more info that might be helpful. FA ammo headstamped FA 53, FA 54 or FA 56 MATCH is all corrosive. Some .45 ACP ball was loaded with corrosive primers until July of 1954.
Rudy <>
Bartlesville, OK, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 01:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Chuck,
I've got a Dillon rig set up(550B). You can do a lot with it. If you are looking to start off easy an RCBS single stage is the way to go or maybey a lock and load for .308 loading. If your gonna add in .45 the Dillon is the way to go. If you need any ideas on what to buy come over an I'll run you through a few rounds. I'm not a expert or anything I just like reloading.

How much time does every one around here spend behind the trigger/working fieldcraft. Whats a good routine to get into? Whats your hardest skill to keep sharp?

I spend about 6 hours twice a month(I reload two nights a week). Most of that is off sand bags(not a rest) trying to tune loads and I feel like I need to build some new skills.

D5 <>
rainwindmorerain, andmaybeatornadoortwo, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 02:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck & Cory

A get together for a shoot sounds good to me. Timing will need to be worked on. I have arthroscopic surgery on the left knee in a couple weeks - hopefully that will be the end of it. Then a week up in New Hampster in October. Maybe by then I'll have a scope for my 700 so that I can actually use it! Of course, the Colt AR is always ready and available. Do either of you know the come ups for a Glock 27 for 600 yards? :D

Hey, I hear there's a range up in Jax with 600 yard lanes. Are you familiar with it?

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
Boca Ratone, FL, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 02:41:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Eric: Fieldcraft, maybe a three day weekend per year at most. Shooting: you have to understand where I live. I drive 15 miles one way to work. About 3 miles off that route is my range. When the weather is appropriate, I shoot 50 rounds pistol and 25 rounds rifle on the way to work in the summer, on the way home in spring / fall. Winter is too deep and white. That's most days (say 3 out of 5 average), but not all. Light rain and wind (or light snow) doesn't bother me, unless it makes the area too muddy for a 2 wheel drive truck or lightning is coming down. Weekends are for loading or tournaments. I'll shoot between 1 and 4 tournaments of different types per month. This week doesn't count though, had the flu for 4 days, and on labor day weekend to boot! Now do you guys understand why I like the 9mm and 5.56? Even these cast 45's are putting a crimp in my finances!

Well, the 45 auto is coming along, seems you guys were right on with the "bad mag" diagnosis. I shot it today and yesterday (since I didn't feel like puking), 100 rounds without a hangup. Another 900, and I'll decide to keep it ;-)

Kevin and Andy: way to go there! Best of luck. Hopefully in a few years, there will be a Bravo and son team too. It's my fondest hope. 'Course, he'll shoot a '25 too when he's big enough.
Brew Master Bravo <>
Enjoying a Bravo Brew, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 03:36:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know the difference in accuracy between the 20" Bushmaster or the 16" Bushmaster? Is the 16" an accurate weapon?
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 03:40:30 (ZULU) (your host address:, we have something in common...I have to have knee sugery too. They are going to do what is called a tibial wedge osteotomy,(okay, I'm not a Doc, so don't freak if I got it wrong) in other words they are going to cut into the bone below the tibial plateau wedge it open, place bone in the opening, add a steel plate held together by screws and I should be as good as new!

Let us know when you get yours done, after we get done getting repaired like an old rifle, we need to make the trip and shoot, c'mon Bravo, come shoot with us. Everyone else too.

Chuck, 600 yards in Jax? do you know anything about it? How far is Benning from you? As soon as the doc gives me a surgery date, I want to go up to Benning and shoot there before I'm down for three months again. Lets get together and shoot before the next round under the knife.

We are still looking for interest in a shoot here in Florida This winter......Contact Chuck to let us know who wants play in the swamps here in Florida.

Anyone have one of the TGRT .300 win mag data books? Comments on it?
Cory <>
Panama , Fl., USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 04:04:38 (ZULU) (your host address:


I had a lee press once. Tried to full length resize some 45-70 cases. It disintegrated on the third case.

Ed <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 04:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looking for info on Gunny Hatchcoks use of the .50 Browning for long range snipping in Viet Nam.
Specifically what scope he was useing. How it was mounted. I assume the machine gun was converted to shoot a single shot or repetitio only.
Any info as to recorded use and effect would be appreciated.
May use a .50 calibre snipping sequence in a movie about to be shot in Israel.We want to be factual and accurate.
Thamks in advance for any input...........MIKE

PS If you can copy and paste to me any writen info ---my url---
Michael R. Columbus <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 04:37:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello ladies!!

Let's all try to help Marius out and keep the personal differences personal and not public, i.e. thru e-mail. We may lose some valuable info thru the archives if he has to decipher all the b.s. as of late, and I'm no angel, I've actually been a cocksucker on many occasions, but let's as Gooch said stick to head shots, eh??!! I wanna read about the art of sniping and people who take plinking to the next level, I'm tired of this " yo mama " bullshit rhetoric.


If you can not find a problem with the fit of the rifle, like an action screw problem or a bedding fault, it could very well be the barrel. In my experience, usually when the gun does not shoot a consistent string, the first thing I look at is the crown. Sometimes after cutting the crown, a small burr is left behind, very small. When that comes up, I usually pour a lap and stroke the bugger out. I have had rifles that originally shot about 1" groups that shrunk under 1/4" after lapping the bore. No shit. But check everything else out before debating whether or not to have this done to your barrel, as there is a chance a rookie lap man will lap the bore too much and lose out on valuable barrel life. It doesn't take too much lappin' to end up at the point of no return, so that's the last resort ya hear!!

My two centavos

JR <>
smouldering in, sd, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 04:50:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Quick question. I've just run across an awfully good price on a Simmons 3x9 V-TAC scope. Now, this is hardly a hard-core scope by any means, but if you could pick one up for under $200 would it be a worthy investment? I know next to nothing about this model. Thanks for any input.
SC <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 05:29:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
Rosterhog´s !

such a simple question, so many good answers !

I kept the intel to a minimum to provoke some broad thinking.

Runner up is Kevin with the "Ten guys from 2-75th", but the top award goes to Cory for number 10, "my wife" (does she know that she is the last item on your list?)

and none of you mentioned "my partner"

I was sitting over my 28kg ruck and was throwing out stuff left and right that I did not use on the last three FTX´s. Kept the first aid kit and my small sewing kit (live sucks with ripped open pants from crossing to many cattle fences in a hurry)

I do carry a compass !
Also a small tobaco tin with some sort of self adjusted "survival set"
including the Condoms ! All of that is in my BDU´s anyway so I guess you guys did´nt need to list that ether.

Now I am down to a manageble small pile of things that fit my pockets and the rest goes into my mission essentials patrol/water pack.

I´ll keep throwing stuff out as I get further into this feng-shui sniper art.


keep it coming

torsten <>
g3land - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 07:55:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm trying to build a new sniper rifle and since our country does not have much choise as far as sniper rifles go, can anyone tell me whether it is possible to have the McMillan M40A1 stock exactly the same shape but with a adj cheek peice and where I can get it.
Mat Collins <>
London, surrey, England - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 09:44:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
Michael R...

Carlos used a 1 1/4", 8x Unertl scope, and it was put on a Unertl "bridge" mount, then mounted to the M2. The scope is not made anymore, but can be found (with difficulty) for around $500-$600 in good condition. If you want an original USMC marked one, it'll go for about $2500 to $3000.

The bridge mount is almost impossible to find, as they were very rare, even when Unertl was in business... but even the weapons experts won't notice it missing in a movie..

The 50 BMG was very effective at long range. It wasn't very accurate, as the M2 machine gun wasn't a "match rifle", and issue ammo wasn't match grade either... but if you keep at it, you are bound to hit something.

The bullet still had 2000 ft-pounds of energy at a mile, and was sub-sonic. If an "Incendary" round was used, it was the equivilent of a hand granade. At long range, the enemy couldn't hear the shot, and there was no "sonic snap"... so the bullet just exploded, and the enemy had no idea what it was, or where it came from.
As a anti personal weapon, it was ineffective, as hits were very problematic... but the demoralizing effect of the exploding bullets "from hell" was tremendious, and the enemy could be keep from water, or using equipment, or even from going to take a dump.

The firing rate of the M2 is slow enough, that it is easy to single tap.

The use of the scoped 50 BMG was not original with Carlos... it goes back to the Korean war, where it was fairly common.

Get any good book on Carlos Hathcock, and you will get photos, and more info on him.

A Simmons scope at $200 is OVER PRICED!


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 11:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

As far as shooting goes, when ever possible. I try to shoot everyday when getting ready for competitions. I think the most important thing is to shoot in "ALL" types of conditions. To many people wait for a nice calm day to go out and shoot, you need to shoot when its windy and hot and cold to get good data. I use calm days for load development. On field craft, I practice it all winter long hunting coyotes. As Bill R. will tell you, there is nothing tougher to try to out smart than a coyote, he'e a true predator, have something shiny or move, or have the wind change when he's coming in and he's gone many will sneak up on you and see you and leave and you won't even know it until you walk out and see the tracks. Good luck!!

Good seeing you again!! Thanks for taking Shawn on tour of your shop, he really enjoyed it.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 11:58:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


a .50 API has the same explosive power as a hand grenade ?


I have shot .50 API´s at half full gas cans, even black powder cans that were behind half Inch plywood to get the composition to start and the "explosion" was not like a hand grenade. And we were closer than I would want to be to even a offencive grenade.

On the other hand, I don't know what your US hand grenades are like,but it was definitely not close to one of ours.

Also the API´s seem to be a little more accurate which I believe is due to the better quality of the steel core. Standard ball mild steel cores have big lathe marks, the AP core is nice and smooth and suggest a better QC and thus better weight tolerances.


torsten <>
we also shoot the 12.7x99, in, Germany - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 12:06:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Straight incendary has more "poop" than API, as there is no steel core to take up space... But, It was ment "euphemistically"... not ballisictally.
The phsycological effect of a 50 BMG incendary going off (and the fragmants), without any incoming "sonic snap" or sound ot the gun, would be very effective in immobilizing personal... that's all.

Would you accept... "Little hand-granade ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 12:46:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re: TRGT .300 win databook. There is no such thing. We took the existing "TRGT Snipers Databook" and included wind constants and bullet drop tables for 190 gr .300 win mag. It also has a new binding which will prove to be more durable. Its still called the "TRGT Snipers Databook". "The one, the only, the orginal" (or words to that effect.)

Gooch <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 13:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a feeling that bringing the wife along was to have someone to hump your ruck and catch incoming rounds!! J/K LOL. I believe Benning is about 7.5 hrs from here, if my old Army-dog buddy of mine is correct. I can find out exactly tonight.

Do you know anything about a 600yd range in town? I appreciate the offer for help on reloading. We need to get together and shoot.

.308 is bolt, mostly. .45 ACP/.460 Rowland is automatic pistol (1911 type). Those are the only 2 calibers I'd be doing right now. TIA!

Thanks for all of the help with the reloading questions. Has anyone ever used Georgia Arms reman ammo. They have reman .308 168gr Sierra Match BTHP for $375.00 per 1000. Pretty good deal, if it shoots. If noone's tried it I'll buy 100 and let everyone know how well it performs.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Gotsoakedonthebuell, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 13:18:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito-----Thanks for the quick answer to my question about Gunny Hatchcock and the .50mg.

Futhure and for you, Gootch and all. BIPOD USEAGE.
Were bipods used in Viet Nam , and if so what make. My read is that a bipod issued with a sniper rifle ,Harris etc., is a fairly recent innovation. Could be wrong and would appreciate anyone bringing me up to speed on its history.
Recall that the Japanesse Arisaki had a bipod (rather primative if memory serves) but can't think of any other that was wartime issue at least till after the Viet Nam war.
Strikes me as the improvement, equipment wise i.e. Lazer range finders , Art telescopes (I know -Leatherwood ART-is circa Viet Nam)) , tactical scopes etc, are all fairly recent .
I am my area QRT sniper leader with the Israeli Border Police. I am using a Styre SSG 7.62 and a Nimrod 6X scope (scope is crap, but out to 300 meters head shots is a no brainer). Been asked to advise in this movie being shot here. Don't want any gaffs in equipment usage so will pick all you brains if I may. So watch for more om my threads.

Guys do appreciate any and all input..........MIKE

Michael R. Columbus <>
Israel - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 13:49:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Perhaps this has been beaten to death like the .308 vs....whatever questions but I was wondering what exactly a .300 Whisper, and .300 Weatherby were relative to the obvious content of what we all come here to explore. Are these useful for longdistance accurate target suppression?

I seem to find only superficial information on them and would like to know how they compare to the .300 Win Mag that I am shooting.

Also there is a buddy if mine at the FD who shoots and swears by his 270. We are entertaining a trip out to AZ for next year and he swears his 270 will be a better rifle for the long D shots and certainly for the game we expect to encounter. Say it ain't so! Now me not bein no ammo guru I opted not to load my mouth with explatives and defend my very useful and very satisfying .300WM. Out of curiosity alone I am wondering if he is correct or just a guy who like myself has found a rifle/ load he likes.

If this is over done please just direct me to the right string.

Whoops!!!! Gotta go. Venus just walked by with that still half asleep but feelin like she might be in the mood look in her eye. Gotta go sacrifice my body for team. DAMN!

Playin And hard!

Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 14:00:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

I hope Venus is your significant other and not your dog. On your question, I'm assuming the .270 is a .270Win, not a Weatherby Magnum. First off, the .270 is firing a much lighter round, 150gr. is usually the heaviest bullet in common use. That round has an MV of 2850 and ME of 2705. At 400 yds I'm showing a vel of 1879 and energy of 1175, dropping 22" if zeroed at 200yds. Your .300WinMag, if firing the same weight bullet, has a MV of 3290 and ME of 3605. At 400yds vel. of 2068 and energy of 1424, dropping 15.8" with a zero at 200yds. I'd say you have him beat hands down, plus you can send alot more bullet weight, if you so desire. Hope this helped. My mom lives outside Syracuse. I lived there until I couldn't take the taxes and gun laws anymore.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 14:34:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

can you tell me if Ruger MIni-14 is a service rifle.When used? is it accurate for 200 yrds or more stock?? .223 cal.

Roseville, MI., USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 15:20:22 (ZULU) (your host address:



Venus is my significant human other, but I guess its always a good idea to make that clear. Thanks for the save. Oh and after she peaked at your response I convinced her that you were not suggesting she was anything other than the goddess I keep tellin her she is. 'course thats her over there in the corner growlin. HA!!!!! Good thing she loves me! Oh and did I mention that her bark is worse than her bite......... and boy do I like her bite........Grrrrrrr to you too honey! Double HA!!!!!!!!!

Anyway thanks for the specifics and for letting me know I'm not the crazy one. I don't have a ballistics thing loaded here on my pc yet so those kinds of questions elude me for now.

It'll be interesting in NOvember when we (that bud of mine and I) head up to the Adirondaks for a Bear hunt. He popped a female a couple years ago with it but she did not just lay down. His shot wasn't more than 100-150 yds and dead nuts on but she beat it on us and we ended up tracking for almost a full day. I was then and there automatically suspect of the caliber choice. I had an off the shelf Remington 30-06 and felt I would have dropped her exactly where she stood under the same conditions had I taken the shot. That rifle has gone by by and now I'm headed out with my .300wm. I expect that if I get get a shot offthere will be no tracking. With his bringing the 270 winchester I will be wearing comfortable shoes.

Play hard!

Mars <>
Venus is the better than most Babe (human) that sufers thru my insanity here in, NY And I don't know why, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 15:41:11 (ZULU) (your host address:


also forgot to mention the lcation to your Mom thing. I'm about 1.5-2 hours from Syracuse. I'm South of it. I worked for Eastern Paramedics for 2 years after I got bounced from Duty. I worked the South Salina street district. It's your basic inner city, low to no income, education deficient, medics gotta wear flak jackets, tennement district. I loved it. But for $9.50/hr I had to move to greener pastures.

If there is somthin she needs and I can help let me know I don't mind a short trip to keep things good.

Playin Hard!

Mars <>
Not far fron Syracuse, Ny if she ever needs anything, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 15:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I appreciate your offer. I may be up that way sometime this fall. Maybe we could do some shooting. My mom actually lives in the Oswego area, but noone knows where that is. I know the area where you worked, my best freind up there went to O.C.C.

A version of the Mini-14 was purchased by the govt in limited quantities, though not for "battle" purposes. I believe that the official name of the weapon was AC556, and was selective fire. A few federal agencies used some, also. I'd have to check my data at home to give you dates used. At 200yds I doubt you'll shoot sub-mil groups, but "accuracy" is a broad term.

1911 mags. Do you have some recommendations based upon your recent shooting?

Good call on the land-nav stuff on your ten essentials. Cpt. DeCamp would have my ass if he found out I neglected it.

Semper Fi!!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Stillrainingthinkingofbuildinganark, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 16:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I thought i would let you know about the rifle i selected based on the post on this site. I have been reading the duty roster for several months. (they say you learn more from listing then talking) so i read reviews as well as post from others asking which rifles and scopes were the best. I even emailed some of you with question. I ended up purchasing an ATI c24 from Armament Technologies with the B&L tactical
scope.Mr Webber is very personable and was patient with my question.
I received the rifle the other day and WOW this is quit the Rig.I went shooting on the weekend and in one group the 1st four shots using factory ammo went into the same hole mesuring .117. Of course the 5th shoot was a flyer and opened the group to .375 at 100 meters. (what can you do).The rifle and scope are everything i was looking for. I hope to attend the match in Ottawa next august and with any luck make my presents felt. Thanks again for all the help.
Trevor <>
Canada - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 16:52:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey guys,
Stock question duJour. Has anyone had any experiences with the L.O.D. Stocks? I know he went out o' bidness, but I saw McMillan still has them on their website. How would they compare to an A2, A3 or A4? Also if they're any good, where in tarnation could I get one?
Thanks a mil (dot)
Rich S. <>
Baltimore "the city that breeds", MD, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 17:57:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
Chuck: got A Wilson, note the "A", as in one. Noticed that the spring tension in the stock Springfield was less. Made me pay attention, and the US GI had a stronger spring. To test a theory, I pulled the spring from the US GI, and put it in the Springfield mag (round follower), and it runs like a champ. Obviously the poor spring was the problem (I think. That's what my logic says). By this logic, I would say that the Springfield was a good mag. Obviously this Wilson hasn't had as much use, but it was what I preferred previously, and still do when I'm not curious. When I sold the last 45 auto, it was a package deal with the Wilson mags. I remember something vaugely about "won't own another damned slab side"....

Richard: I have been assured that there is no mechanical accuracy advantage to the longer barrelled AR's. However, I prefer a longer sight radius for applicable accuracy. Of course, velocity is a different matter, and will play into accuracy at range. I will know SIGNIFICANTLY more tomorrow or Monday when the custom CAR arrives. Ah, another Geoff rifle! Life is good!

Bill and Chuck: the mini, as stock, in my experience, is not capable of 1 mil accuracy. About 4 MOA is a "good" shooter for these. Geoff also works over minis to less than 1 MOA, with the issue barrel, but won't guarentee them for less than 1.5 MOA. Tim at AWS does good work too, and he's also a great guy. Tim's preference is to replace the stock barrel. In my experience they're very reliable and not prone to breakage, but now you're basing statistics off a small sampling. Now, please let the mini thread die, as a personal favor to me. I've got a great good friend that gets an upset tummy when I speak of them ;-)
Bravo <>
wishing for Havana days too, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 17:59:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

To: Charles H.

I think Pablito Pretty much answered your question but would like to add my 2 drackmas.

I have been loading since the mid fifties after departing the CORPS. I have tried just about every press available to the average puppy including progressive presses and some most have never heard of. In that 45+ years I have settled on two brands. RCBS (Rock Chucker) and Dillon. I am so impressed with Dillon that I have two 550B's. One is set up for small primers the other large. If I need volumns of ammo real quick I use the Dillons, If I need stuff to perform down range I use the RCBS. This is a single stage press but with Redding Dies my rifles will out perform my capabilities. You can buy cheaper but after several replacements you spend more. One more point, If you buy a progressive either remove the auto index sys. or buy one that is manual index. Trust me it will save you a lot of profanity and grey hair.

Sorry guys didn't mean for this to come off like a commercial but I'm sold on the products!


Vernon <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:17:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


I disagree about the auto-indexing progressives... I have two Hornady "Lock-n-load"s, and two Dillon 1050's... and they rotate and index perfectly, and are idiot proof... my Dillon 550B is nice, but if I had it to do over again, I'd go for the 650.

Also, the progressives will load match grade ammo, if used with match grade dies... one of the Hornady's is set up for .308 with a Redding bushing neck die, a lyman "M" step die, a Forster "Ultra" seater, and a Redding taper die, and the ammo from it is just as accurate as from the single stage press... and I can do over 500 rounds an hour.

Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:46:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Trevor: Congratulations on the new rifle! I'm sure you are going to enjoy it for a lot of years to come. I frequently shoot with Andrew, and I've marked several of his targets shot at 600 yards. The accuracy is truly amazing.

Andrew is a great guy and fun to drink with. There's never a dull moment, let's put it that way.

Are you shooting Norma Match in your rifles? The 168gr. loading works axceptionally well in them. I'm sure you know this already, as Andrew would have told you this.

Please, stick around this site and post some more, we need more Canucks on this board.

All the best,

Jeff Babineau <>
Canada - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 18:57:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone experienced a problem trying to reload .30-06 brass after it has been used in a Remington 7400? A friend of mine tried to reload some brass after shooting it out of the 7400, even tried to full length resize the cases, but no go. Seems the cartridge bases swell after being fired in said weapon. This was new factory ammo, not reloads. Just wondering if this is a common occurrence or if he should get his gun checked out. Thanks.

Gerry <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:06:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone experienced a problem trying to reload .30-06 brass after it has been used in a Remington 7400? A friend of mine tried to reload some brass after shooting it out of the 7400, even tried to full length resize the cases, but no go. Seems the cartridge bases swell after being fired in said weapon. This was new factory ammo, not reloads. Just wondering if this is a common occurrence or if he should get his gun checked out. Thanks.

Gerry <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:07:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for the double posting.

Gerry <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:11:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Not that it hasn't been beat to death already, but...

For all practical purposes, the .270 Win and the '06 are absolutely identical in effectiveness until you start loading the 220+ grain bullets in the '06. A good comparison would be the 270 with 130 gr bullets and the '06 in 150 gr bullets. My 270 is pushing 3050 fps with a 130 gr Ballistic tip. The '06 with the 150 gr bullet is going at ~2900 fps with a 150 gr BT. The drop tables are -20.2" for the 270, -22.3" for the '06. The 150 gr .270 and 175 gr '06 also match up, as do the 170 gr .270 and the 220 gr '06. Delivered energy is also virtually the same.

There is a definite advantage to the 300 win mag, but again bullet placement is more important. Since you won't be shooting at game more than 350 yards off, the higher energy of the magnum round won't factor in. Basically, use whatever rifle you trust and can shoot accurately.

Reloading - Nothing beats the RCBS Master reloading kit, escpecially nor that they include a case trimmer. Everything you need at a good price except the dies. RCBS is as good as anyone else for reliability and service.

What to bring:
1. Rifle
2. Ammo
3. Water
4. Nav gear (map and compass, also a GPS if it doesn't count seperately.)
5. Knife
6. Food
7. First aid kit
8. Poncho/shelter half
9. Comm gear/signaling device
10. Either parashute cord, or socks, or cold weather gear, or a spacesuit (If mission is on moon) or something else mission specific.
Karl <>
Damn Cold , Mn, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:11:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Vernon: what 'Lito said. I use a lock and load also, and used the pro-jector (earlier version). Both ran and do run fine. The only thing I would consider replacing it with would be a Dillon 650, and then only because of the option on case feed, etc. I use all 5 stations. I'll put my loads up against Fed GM2 in any rifle, and I do 'em on the Hornady, using 'Lito's hard earned knowlege for my die setup. After looking at C-H, I would trade my rockchucker in a heartbeat for a singlestage too.
Bravo <>
auto loader? Who? me?, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 19:18:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Has anyone seen my TBAM40A1? Mike said it would ship end of August so I'm wondering if anyone has seen it...
Breakpoint <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 20:58:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Best results I have haad so far with 1911 mags is with the McCormic shooting star mags. They come in various capacitys and have been trouble free for me for years. If money is a major object tho, I have also had good results with the Mecgar mags and they are half the price. Brownells also now carries the rifle caliber uppers for the 1911's again, thinking of getting one in 5.56, hear they will shoot about 1.5MOA.
Brian <>
Columbia, SC, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:39:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
10 Things?

Ditty Bag (with all the gear not in the Backpack)
Weapons pack.
6 Great looking hookers.
1 Case of Bud.

I can go fight and know what I'm coming back to.

Hank <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 22:55:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

1911 mags: About ten years ago I had TERRIBLE luck with Shooting Star mags. Maybe they have fixed them. Wilson's work fine for me. UnDude hates 'em.

Mars: If a .270 fails on a black bear at 150 yards, it was either an unusually durable bear or an inappropriate bullet. I'll take door number two, Monty. Nosler partitions have been doing it for me for the last ten years. I've never seen one fail.

BillR: Agree?

Ten things to bring: Has anyone answered binos? Gotta have 'em.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:06:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for the double post. I shouldn't have spoken for Mike on Wilson mags or anything else. If he has something to say, he ain't bashful.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:22:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito & Bravo

Aaaaawwwww geeezzzzeee, I knew someone was going to do that! Ya done gone and sprung the main ones that I havent tried on me. But your points are valid and well taken. However in my case I am reloading forteen different calibers, pistol & rifle. but lets just take five of the main rifle calibers. a 550 set up for those calibers will run about $ 610.00. For the 650 the outlay will be close to $1200.00, the 1050 base price is close to $1200.00 before goodies. See where I'm headed? Now $1200.00 for a press and then case feed with other goodies on top of that is to long an outlay for a close to retirement cop. But if you promise not to make it public knowledge I'll fess up and say that I want to try one of the 650s so bad I would almost give up my Yeller Lab!

Progressive was mentioned in my post but should have read "AUTO INDEXING". I have tried STAR, RCBS GREEN MACHINE, HORNADY(whatever it's called), RCBS PIGGY BACK, and RCBS AMMO CRAFTER. My problem was that they wanted to flip primers at the most inopertune time. Yea yea I know your about to say "well Dummy re-time the thing" right? My question is why fool with the piece of &^*% when with a manual indexing machine you simply back up clear the problem and your off to the races again? 500 rounds an hour? yup in pistol cartriges I can hit that and sometimes exceed it on my 550. Rifle? I can't make that but close to 350 to 400 is normal. Now to the ROCKCHUCKER. Thats one strong bear. You need 6mm br brass and only have a bunch of .308 or 06 laying around? No problem with the proper forming dies.

Yup there are some really good presses out there but factoring in the coin I still think the 550 and rockchucker are stand up equipment!

Now lets shoot, THEN blow the head off a draft and I'll kick back and wait for the next hit! Come on guys I know it's commin so dont take no mercy on me just cause I be a senior citizen.

Vern <>
GAWD AWFULL HOT HOUSTON, TX, USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Vern... (Heeeeey VERN;)

You named some goodies. I have a RCBS Green machine that I got for pennies, cuz it was set up for 38 Sp Wadcutters, and they don't list parts for it anymore... Ha... there's a Guy at RCBS that absolutly loves those Greenies, and has the parts down in the basement... I converted it to .357 Mag, and adapted a Dillon case feeder to it, instead of those little tubes, and I love it.

I think the RCBS "piggy back", and "Ammo crafter" have been discontinued, and they've brought out something else.
I think RCBS is searching for a spot in the market, and don't quite know what it is... Blout is one of those "take-over" companies, that don't listen very well. I had a Rockchucker at onetime, but sold it, and got a C-H single stage... at 28 pounds, it's terrific!

It's too bad loading threads aren't carried here too often... you can't get good if you don't shoot a hell of a lot, and most of us can't shoot a hell of a lot, at factory prices.

10 Things?... man, you got the best answer yet, and I'd even be willing to drop the Backpack, Ditty Bag, and Weapons pack.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 07, 2000 at 23:55:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Now for the 45 question of the day: it's run 150 jam free (including today) with this one mag. I've run double that through it since it came home, and Springfield reported to me that they ran 50 rounds of mixed gold dot and hydrashok through it for testing (and didn't clean it). So at this point, it's got 350 without lubing or cleaning. Now, should I go on with the test like I did with the Glock, or lube the slide rails and see if it keeps going jam free? I didn't clean or lube the Glock for a year / 1800 rounds before it jammed. Suggestions HIGHLY welcome!

Vern: the Lock-n-Load (Hornady progressive) that I have now was bought about 18 months ago, for seems like $300 plus $15 S&H. No auto case feeding capacity, but it works well for me. So far, I've churned out about 4 or 5 cases of different ammo with no significant problems on this one, including the case of great ammo I took to the sniper class. If you want to clear a station, just pull the casing out. No problems.

CDC is right on with the bear ammo I suspect, I've never seen a 270 used, but a 280 yes. Just a 7mm-06, and I can't see the difference being great between a 284 and a 277. DUH. Either way, I'll take President Roosevelts "big medicine" if I'm hunting one. Just grew up with the 30-06. But I hunt with a custom 30-40 for the lesser game, 'cause I love the Krag-Jorgensen action, never found a slicker one!
Bravo <>
not feeling too good again, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: If a 1911 won't run dirty, something's wrong. Keep shooting.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 00:38:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello dudes and undudes:

Hey, today's roster has been great, lots of useful info and stuff!!


It was a pleasure meeting your son, Shawn, the other jr (LOL). I hope I wasn't too confusing on the barrelmaking tour, a lot of it is second nature to me and I forget that not everyone makes barrels for a living, hahah.


We received a .308 Win tactical rifle back from the FBI academy, they took it thru about 5000 rds, in fact exactly 5000 rds. 168 gr Federal match was used throughout, as far as I know. By the looks of the throat, I'd say it had at least another 10000 rds left in her, I was impressed. What do they use for powder in the Federal 168 match .308's, anybody??? I guess the gun was still shooting 1/4 inch groups. Anyway, we are rebarreling it so they can send the rifle out in field, but we're gonna look the old barrel over. Will keep ya posted.

While yer at it, anyone know what powder Winchester uses for their factory 150 grain .308 Win round?? That shit eats throats, stay away from this stuff.


JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 01:03:20 (ZULU) (your host address:


It's too bad loading threads aren't carried here too often... you can't get good if you don't shoot a hell of a lot, and most of us can't shoot a hell of a lot, at factory prices.

I agree. As a hunter-turned-shooter, I am spending WAY too much on factory match ammo. I am becoming more and more aware that I need to start rolling my own. I know you guys all have your favorite setups and know a lot more than I do about all this. What do you recommend as a good "starter" setup? Price is a consideration, but I do realize that eventually these things pay for themselves. I am looking to load for my .308, and also a .45 pistol someday. The rifle is a 26" bbl Remington 700 P, the pistol is a gov't. 1911.

Thanks fellas!

Brian <>
OR, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 01:22:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Brian: some good words, given to me as I give them to you. Never start reloading with the thought that you'll save cash. You don't. Ever. The difference is that you will take that $X per month you spend on factory ammo, and spend the same dough on components. The difference is that you will shoot multitudes more for the same cash.
Bravo <>
the guy with the "reloading monkey" on his back, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 01:34:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Comm is A #1 in my book, with out it, no evac, no air, no atry, no extract by CH-HUMVEE, NADA! But, land nav and map reading is an exellent skill to have.

As far as 1911 Magazine-gate, the Chip McCormick mags SUCK!!!!!! Wilson mags are are the best! I have never had a jam with a Wilson. (sorry Undude). Also my GI Colt mags that I "borrowed" from my Uncle Sam were pretty good also.

Semper Fidelis Brothers!

Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 01:45:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


I know many people have their pet setups, but I prefer the manual setup that gives me exacting perfection for each of my loads. I can load boatloads of ammo with limited time while ensuring perfect quality.

There are a number of reloading manufacturers, such as Dillion and Lee, and they do make some great gear, but I chose RCBS products for everything simply because when picking the perfect piece of gear for each function RCBS won out. The price was less important because as time passes and ammo is loaded I will forget what I paid. I even waited a few months to afford what I bought.

I use the RCBS case vibrator, Master Press (Not the Master Reloading Kit), digital scale and powder thrower (both actually made by PACT), manual case trimmer (with a drill attached), case prep center, various accessories such as the powder funnel, and Redding and RCBS dies and case holders.

I can load, literally, 1,000 rounds of handgun in a few nights sittings, or 200-400 rounds of the various rifle loads. I am never without ammo and I shoot quit a bit. I currently have about 2,000 rounds of various ammo in stock, and I don't really seem to spend that much time at it; just a few nights every now and then as I find components or need a relaxing break from life.

I know the progressive presses give great results, but I like the very fine results from the manual process. I also get to perform quality checks at each step in the process for 100% confidence in each round. Each round is top quality and I spend about 20-50% of what commercial ammo goes for.
Hank <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 01:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: I read you wrong. Run 1911s dirty but lube them. Rails, barrel bushing to barrel and barrel link. CLP works for me. I clean after 600 or so rounds. If you need to go much past that, it's been a hell of a war.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 02:07:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

PEOPLE! is a damned fine source on what's really goin' on w/ that prick Clit-ton. Him and the u.n.
Everyone who gives a shit needs to read this.

This is from the site yesterday. Not sorry for the length.

This is short, but will get you there. Relates to the one above.



Dennis <>
merced, californicateya, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 02:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch..Thats for the TGRT data book info...I need to order one for my .300. I thought I read somewhere it was the same in better binding. Was'nt sure. The binding on the first one I bought is driving me crazy...keeps coming apart.

Yup, I included the wife for several reasons. One...I don't have to bring the condom someone suggested. Two, I'm kinda skeered a 'splosives so I kin git her ta carry em for me. And if I'm not sure of conditions up ahead I can always send her up to see whats up...honey, is that a mall I see up ahead? If she does'nt come back( aw too bad!) I don't go that way. And If she does catch the tangos they will cap themselves after 15 minutes of HER nagging! And yeah she knows I'm going to take her with me...but I bought her a Mini-30 so even if she turns on me she'd probably miss me at 50 yards.
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 02:24:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

The only 600y range around Jacksonville is at camp blanding. Good luck getting in there. The club up at Brunswick is in the process of pushing their range out to 600. There is a range around that is run by a Ret. State Trooper on rt. 119 but I haven't talked to him yet. I shoot at a farm in Ga. that I can get 500y off a bench or 750 off the cab of a truck (fence in the way). I can take a guest or two (not a crowd). I just got in as guest at a hunt club that has an 1100y recently cut over area But I'm still working on gettin good groups at 500.

Send me some email on when your gonna shoot next.


D5 <>
Jax, Fl., USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 03:44:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Guys,
I would like to ask you guys a few questions concerning having a custom tactical rifle built. I have seen some custom builder as I have looked into it and I would like any opinions on them. One is Brown Precision, I saw there Tactical Elite rifle and thought it looked very appealing. H-S Precision is another, along with Ed Brown, Robar, Answerrifles, McMillian, AI, etc. Any info on who you folks consider to be top notch gunsmiths in this arena and what you guys like(ie. actions, barrels, lenght, contours, cartridge, stock) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Ryan Neal <>
High Point, NC, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 04:47:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

I think mine ran is out with yours somewhere. Maybe where all those socks you lose in the dryer go?
TR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 05:17:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey guys check this Bill out Go to Bill search and type in SB-2099 please help stop this bill contact your senators now.

T Chase <>
Kenai, Alaska, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 05:38:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

I´m looking for a site with a lot of photos of Russian VSS sniper gun. Does anybody know any tip, please?
axl <>
Brno, CZ - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 08:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Federal has three "certified" powders for their match ammo (so they can switch in case one is temporally out of stock).
The one most used is a "non-canister" 4064 equivelent.

Winchester (Olin Chemical) uses Ball, and as I recall, non-canister version of W748 for the .308.

I used to shoot a lotta ball powder, cuz it's so damn easy to throw through a measure, but I've just about walked away from it now, and only use it is a few calibres, like .22 Hornet, and .218 Bee.
For just about everything else, I've gone back to stick, even though it's bit of a pain to measure.

I'll tell you this, and several will probably second the motion.
DON'T get a starters kit... starters kits are like record albums, you get one or two songs you love, and a lotta stuff you don't like.
Same with Starter kits... you may get a press you like, but the powder measure is just so-so, and you either live with it and hate it, or give it away (there's NO market for used loading equipment!!!!).

Get he equipment to do the job you want, the best way.
Example is the Hornady press I mentioned a few posts back... Hornady progressive press, Redding bushing neck sizer, Lyman step die, Forster Seater, Redding taper crimp... and if I use new brass, even the factory couldn't tell it wasn't one of theirs.

So pick and choose.

But some quick notes and warnings:

Stay away from all "Lee" stuff.
Hornady presses are great, their dies suck BIG TIME!... the worst.
Dillon presses (and other stuff) is great, their dies are poor but usable... but don't do the dies, if you can help it (but you must use their "Backing" die if you get a 1050, or it won't work!).
C-H Presses are raw animals, and will size automobile crankshafts!!!
Forster and Redding dies are the best around... and the Redding bushing dies are pure Pig heaven.
RCBS is quite good, but not in the major leagues anymore. Pass on their "Competition dies"... Very pretty, not not competition quality.
The best powder measures are Redding, and Hornady a close second (at half the price) and the RCBS is pretty good.

If you have or get a progressive... the Hornady measure with their little auto powder thingie (looks like a Jungle Gym, in heat!), is the best thing since the full auto kit for ther M1 carbine ;)

What CDC said! I clean my rifles, and Revolvers the same day (if posible), but I clean my auto pistols once every winter, whether the need it or not (They usually NEED IT BAD;)

On takin' your wife... you're a piece of work, man... had me laughing out loud.


Pablito <>
Lookin for "Coffee" that doesn't have little green things floatin' in it, in good ol' Constitution challanged, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 11:15:45 (ZULU) (your host address:


I read your explanation of why you'd take your wife along to my wife.
She laughed, said "that was pretty funny", then said if she was married to you she'd kill you!
So my suggestions to you if your wife reads this are don't sleep in the same room, keep the door locked, and for Gods sake don't fall asleep! Also did I mention don't eat anything she cooks for you especially mushrooms!

Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 11:53:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ditto on what you said , I agree 100%. I know a lot of the guys really like the 650 and I haven't tried one yet but I do love my 550. I would love to get it to load .308s the way it loads .223s. I have had problems with mine on bullet run out so I have stayed with the single stage for my match 308 stuff.

I will try some new neck turned Federal match brass in it and see if I still have the same problem we talked about last fall with the run out on about every 6th or 7th one.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 11:59:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

I went with the knife as #1 thinking of JEST in PI. If I hadn't gone on MSG Duty I was slated for SEERE right after NCO School. I've heard they give a knife, also. I'm happey with the way the 1911 came out. I used Clark Custom Guns, I haven't given a full report yet because I need to cycle some rounds before I make up my mind fully. I have a few USMC "surplus" 1911 mags, myself. I need to get them functioning properly, they have a little rust-n-dust. Any ideas?

I'm thinking of going down to Ocala this weekend, if it ever stops raining. There's a range in the Nat. Forest, but I don't know much else about it.

I'll let you know how the range in Ocala is.

Thanks for your reloading help. One question (after having information-overload the last time). If you had to get one press to start from, and couldn't afford to spend more than $650, what would you go with? Remember, all dies, holders, etc. have to be included because I don't have a lick of gear. Go with a set-up ie. Rock-Chucker kit. I'll be reloading .308 bolt and .45 ACP/.460 Rowland (which take the same dies). TIA.
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 12:17:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, ok yuz guyz done went and did it! Ya snuck up on my blind - hard of hearin side and gave me a goose, naughty naughty! So I gets up off my brain case and go do some research. RCBS's new toy is called the Pro-2000. Dawgies what a monster! Gotta tell you this thing should put some serious dingies in a ford axel shaft. No doubt about it I think you could take cases from a 50bmg and smush it to a .17 eargensplittinglowdenboomer without form dies. It's a pretty spiffy upgrade from what looks like the old square - four, except it now has five stages. The Lock n Load is a well designed upgrade of what used to be Hornadys Pro-Jector ( the name I couldn't remember). And I cant help myself Bravo. The question is does the powder measure on the Lock n Load live up to the ad? If so man that thing has to be slicker than silk scivvies in a driving rain.But the gist of all this is I think we can agree on is: If you want longivity and quality you might oughta stay away from the Lee presses. They work pretty well on straight wall pistol casses

Bravo: I think I may have figgered out why youz feel bad sometimes and then it gets worse. Guy you be puttin to much ice in the hooch. Didn't you ever see what water does to the pipe that carries it? Baaaaddd ju ju.

Ok I have taken up to much space and time from the folks thats got serious stuff to take care of so i'm going to make a tacticle regress to my hide and wait till next time.


Vern 10-8
Vern <>
Hot by gawd Houston, TX, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 12:21:51 (ZULU) (your host address:


In regards to your mags, get some oil, clp, whatever and some 600 grit sandpaper and wet sand the the rust and junk off your mags. Make sure the follower slides through the mag body good, this is paramount.
The biggest problem that I find with mags for the 1911 style pistols is then the slide feeds the next round, sometimes the stamped, sheet metal followerwill shift and the rounds will be tilted slightly forward and will strike the top lip of the mag well of the pistol. This is nothing a little immediate action won't cure, but it still is a pain in the ass. That is whi I like the Wilson mags, they have a solid plastic follower that does not shift as much.

Glat to hear yur 1911 turned out good, mine is going in next!

That is my 2 cents

Semper Fi

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 12:54:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Questions about Rem700 upgrades.

I have been toying with the idea of a Rem700 project. The idea is to buy a 700 VS-LH in 308 and upgrade it. VS because they do not make PSS in LH configuration.

I know I need: Badger scope base, Badger rings (are Max-50´s overkill for M3 LR ??), new hex steel bolts for attaching the action and triggerguard to the stock and a steel trigger guard. For the latter there are basically three options: HS Precision detachable mag kit (drop-in, besides I like det.mags.), Badger/Chandler Trigger Guard (definitely not a drop-in) and D.D. Ross triggerguard. I do not know whether D.D.Ross and Badger trigger guard are the same product or not. Does anyone know ? Is D.D. Ross a drop in or not ? How are they finished ? What is the cost approximately for DD Ross triggerguard ?

I know AT in Canada uses HS det mag, so it can not be that bad. Does anyone know how well it works ?

Where can one buy D.D. Ross products, from the web I could not find much ? I would prefer to buy the whole pile from one source and try to negotiate a decent deal. A minimum amount would seem to be something like 450 USD plus money for the gunsmith to bolt properly all together.

I think I would retain the original barrel and first let a gunsmith make a good crown to it and adjust the trigger properly. The stock would remain for the time being the regular VS stock.

With a M3 LR and mildots I would still stay below 2 kUSD. Is this a reasonable approach or should I just be happy with the regular triggerguard. The rifle will be used for non-critical shooting but it will be dragged trough bushes quite a lot and I would prefer to be able to use 65 lbs torque with the triggerguard.


Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 12:54:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

The H&S trigger guard and clip set up is first class and works great!!! There is no comparrison with theirs and Remingtons. AS far as a stock one goes I have used the stock trigger guards for more years than I care to remember and have never broken one yet and I torque all mine to 65" pounds. The only thing is mine are all bedded into the stocks so this may make a differnce. I have seen one break when it was put in wrong with the mag box "Cocked" in the stock and when the person tightened it down he craked the trigger guard. I am not a person who abuses my gear, if I fall it won't be on my gun!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 13:14:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
Saw your post to Brian and will take your advice on the starter kits. Would you post or e-mail me on everything I'll need to have to get started, please? Thanks again!

Is there a way to disassemble these mags?

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 13:21:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Ross and Badger Ord trigger guards are most positively not the same!!

If you want a DBM go with the HS precision. If you are using a VS to start with you are getting an HS stock with the VS anyway.

Stay prepped for the start of the International League of RIflemen guys. I'm still working on it. Got contacts from Israel, Germany, Czech Republic etc. Just gotta get moved and I'll get the newsletter going if I still have the support I need.

Gooch <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 13:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kush/others, I love Wilson 7rd mags, its the 8rounders that suck. They are almost as bad as the Chip of poops mags. For the money the Megar's are hard to beat(7rd)

Breakfree/CLP is great on 1911's and I use a dab of Rig SS Lube on the rails.
MIkeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 14:16:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


BRAVO, DC8PLUMBER, or any of you m1a types

What is the proper stock height for using iron sights on the m1a? My stock is the adjustable wood stock from springfield and with the adjustment all the way down, I can use the iron sights but not without cramming the stock halfway throught my cheek bone and eyesocket. "Honey. why are your glasses always sitting crooked on your face?"

I have some walnut laying around and I think I could make a new adjustable piece for the stock and switch it out when going from iron to glass. i think.......maybe.......




Rick < >
right side of my face smashed in, splinters for eyebrows , USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 14:50:11 (ZULU) (your host address:


Yes the "Max 50" rings are overkill for the .308-M3-LR... but Ken "Chainsaw" Hunter put them on his 308 Towed, and I have them on the new M24 "Black Mamba"... they are only $10 or $15 more... life is short, ride first class!!
I'll e-mail you some pictures of the setup.
The DD Ross is not drop in, and won't take magazines... it comes "In the white", and must be fitted to the stock... put your money elswhere.
Like Pat, I keep the stock trigger guards on Rems... have had tons of them, and they don't fail.

The H-S mag setup is first rate... I don't know if it will fit te existing H-S stock that comes with the VS... call H-S and ask (JR?? You know??)


I'll make up a list over the weekend, and e-mail it to you.... did you say that the .460 whatchamacallit uses the same dies as the .45 auto??, or just the same shellholder?


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 15:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, I'll go with the topic de-jure...reloading country.

My question... has anyone come up with a progressive setup for .223 or .308 in which the powder measure delivers acceptable loadings of long stick powder. I have a dillon 550 and good dies.

I have heard a lot of knocking on the Lee stuff, but I have to tell you... the lee $15 powder measure has worked better than my RCBS or Dillon with IMR 4064 and Varget (still +/- .6 grains, which seems like too much deviation to me) . I also have bought lee cheapo dies to reload my dad's 30-30, 30-06 and 7mmMag hunting loads... I figure they're still better than factory and I'm not out the jing for a caliber where I cannot justify the Reddings at $60/die

I load my 26" .308 at 43.6 for IMR 4064 and 44 for varget (2680-2700 fps)... 44.6 of varget will blow primers, so + .6 just ain't cutting it.
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 15:41:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks, bro. The .460 Rowland uses the same dies and has the same OAL as the .45 ACP. The case is just 1/16" longer to prevent usage in a regular .45. The .45 and .308 use the same holder, though, don't they?

Thanks again--Semper Fi,
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 15:42:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

If a rifle mounted in a wood stock is free floated the full length of the barrel, only the action to the lug is bedded, what kind of change in POI can be expected with temp/humidity change? Also are there any stabilising compounds to treat the wood with to reduce or eliminate this change? Thanks for any data you have.

On the 1911 magazines, use what works, I recomended the shooting Stars because in 6 years of ipsc and idpa I have never had a jam from an 8 rounder yet, just my gun, your experiences may differ. I have also had good results with the wilson 10 round mags, but they are a bit large. One thing I have noticed, the better the gun runs the less the magazine makes a difference.

Thanks for the good info on appropriate rifles for precesion shooting, will be building up a Tikka to play with and see where it goes from there.
Brian <>
cola, SC, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 15:49:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Reloading gear,

Mr. Pablito's comments on reloading gear are right on target with my experience. Here is what I do and why:

Dillon RL550B - Provides accurate loads for my needs, rapid throughput. In fact, the loads are far more consistent and accurate than I can take full advantage of. Drawback: Powder thrower has some difficulty with throwing stick powder as consistently as ball powder. I believe Dillon offers a precision powder measure unit for the press, although I have no experience with it. Also, rapid caliber changeover (if that's important to you). Finally, Dillon customer service is OUTSTANDING.

Forster and Redding dies - The only rifle dies I will buy. The Redding bushing dies are outstanding. I have had good experience with RCBS dies, bad experience with Lee dies, and have not used any others (for rifle).

Pact digital scale - provides rapid checking of powder loads without the settling time involved in balance-beam scale. NOTE: It is a good idea to leave the digital scale plugged in at all times. The analog circuitry is temperature sensitive, and requires a significant warm up period (just my personal experience). However, I intend to buy a balance beam scale as a backup and use as a double-check for the Pact. The Pact, being electronic, will probably need a factory recalibration at some point. It's good to have a mechanical backup to know when things are going south. IMO

Pistol dies - I use Dillon carbide pistol dies. I'm not in competition, I just toss lead, so these dies work just fine for me.

Other stuff that I've found important are things like the Stoney Point chamber gauge, headspace gauges, 6"-8" digital calipers, deburring tools, etc., etc.. My sources for these things are Midway, Dillon, and Sinclair International. Occasionally I will find a gem or two at a show.

As I move towards some benchrest work, I intend to move to a single stage press and more precise powder throwers. I will probably work through Sinclair on these. They offer some really nice stuff, and many of the shooters at the club use Sinclair gear.

Finally, I've discovered one thing: buy cheap, buy twice. Spend the money on really good stuff and you will be satisfied for life. IMO

Although I am not in the same league as Pablito, I hope this helps.


Steve <>
Denver, CO, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 15:50:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


The floorplate does not come off on the Gov mags, all you have to do is pull the follower out and you can de-gut the magazine and clean to your hearts content.

Mike, that's a surprise in the 8 rounders, my Wilson 8rd mags work almost as goodm as my 7 rounders, go figure.
Another thing, what is the Maximum age you can be and still get picked up by So.Cal L.E.?


No need for the Max50, unless you are going the route of the .50BMG have the standard Maximized rings on my Mk4, they rule!.
As far as new trigger guards, while the others are truly beefy, unless you want the detach mag, if you have the money to spend in the first place, take it money and get the gun re-barreled and get the action trued up, well worth the money. The Rem triggerguardds and floorplates are fine. My factory floorplate is tourqued in at 65lbs with my McMillan A4 and no problems.

That's all I have to say about that.

Later Dudes (and Undudes)

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:02:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


As long as you have a good fiberglass bedding job, you should be OK unless the free-floated end swells so much that it touches the barrel, hence why the military uses fiberglass stocks today on almost all of their precision rifles.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:10:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

You need a press, dies, shell holder, scale, case trimmer, brass chamfer gizmo, primer pocket cleaner brush, neck cleaning brush, case lube, priming tool, powder trickler and a good pair of calipers. Don't forget a good reloading manual. You don't have to have a tumbler but you will find it very useful. A powder measure cannot be used for most extruded powders so get one when you start doing a lot of pistol. I think I got all of the major items. There are tons of otehr gadgets and stuff that benchresters and other anal types use but they are for more experienced reloaders. You will determine other things that you need with experience.

I bought a Lyman Expert kit with turret press when I started. The scale that came with it was horrible. There was too much friction at the balance point and I got some pressure problems. I learned how to compensate and I also bought a RCBS electronic scale. I highly recommend an electronic, it will save your eyes and patience. I would get a catalog from Natchez( and Sinclair International ( Natchez has great prices and Sinclair carries all the benchrest type products.

1911 Magazines,
Someone once said that if a 1911 was meant to have an 8 round magazine, John Browning would have made it to hold 8 rounds. I have had good success with Wilson 8 rounders. My favorite magazine is a Les Baer 7 round. It has a metal follower, not GI style but similar to Wilson. Shooting star magazines are real close to worthless, I think $7 surplus mags are better.

The max 50 rings are probably overkill on a 308 with a M3LR. That being said, I have max 50 rings on my 308 with a M3LR. They only cost $11 more from Premier and they add a touch of uniqueness. I figured that the rifle weighed so much anyways, what is another 8 oz, 0.23 kg for you Europeans :). I think Ken uses max 50's on his 308 Towed.

You still have support here.

A cold front finally came through Texas, it was a chilly 95 yesterday. It was 112 Monday.

G. Gordon Liddy's Bumper Sticker of the Month
End Clintonism. Vote Republican.
The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:31:57 (ZULU) (your host address:


I re-read my post and I apologize for mis-spelling your name. Damn Fingers!

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 16:59:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Time for bino country.

O-tay, I lookin' for some solid field glasses to add to my
mounting pile -0- gear. I'm thinking of the IOR 10x40 Military
glasses and am also considering Steiner.
Thoughts, comments?

Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 17:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bino's? BINO's?!!
You really are going to be an officer!!

Semper Fi,

Oh, yeah.
I've had good luck with my Steiners.

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 17:50:11 (ZULU) (your host address:


You're a real comedian!!!!

Which bino's do you have(or have used)?

Later, funny guy

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 18:05:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick: it's what's personally comfortable. I've got the saddle type cheek piece on my McMillan M3A, and have to raise it a touch for iron sights. Go figure. It's almost topped out for the scope. I do it because I love the cheek weld and it's reproducibility. When I shot service rifle, I used a worked over US GI synthetic stock.

Vern: the brew is good, and good for me, that can't be it. So head out to the Atchafalaya (SP?) off of the farmers loop and have some of the great fried gator tail for me. Almost makes me wanna battle Houston traffic again! Oh, and for the Hornady powder thrower station, it's GREAT!!! The last type I'll own. My RCBS powder thrower with pistol cylinder is in there, and stays there. Works WONDERFUL!! The RCBS and Hornady throwers are interchangable on this station, and it's the Glock of powdering systems. That's the best complement I could think of.

'Lito, I'm gonna disagree with this one thing. I think Lee dies are worse than Hornady. Oh, and the trick with the Hornady and RCBS powder measures is to get the pistol inserts. With the pistol insert in the RCBS, you can get a GREAT measure. With the Hornady, mine required fitting.

On the 45: my question wasn't if I should clean it or not, if it won't go 1000 rounds without cleaning, I don't want it. I was wondering about lubing it. I broke down and lubed the slide rails, bushing and link per CDC's remarks last night. I figured that if a 45 is gonna make my cut, it needs all the help it can get. Yesterday's 50 through the 45 was rather interesting. I shot "for accuracy" at 25 yards (30 paces), and put 40 into the head, 7 into the throat (less than 1" low from the head), and 1 into the chest. Yeah, probably missed 2, you see, the siloughet got tired of being shot midway through, (the wind wipped the target off), and I ran the remaining 6 at the "running man". For a stocker, it's pretty good. Mike, did I tell you I shot one of these good?

Tremendous strings guys, keep 'em up!
Bravo <>
where the humidity is about 1% of Houston, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 18:14:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

I had a set of Steiner Military (I think that's what they were called). I liked them for what I used them for. If I remember correctly I bought them at the Kaserne in Munich at the American PX. I mostly used them for girl watching on the Donau;} but I think they'd do well in other circumstances. They were rugged and didn't fog easily. It's been awhile since I've used them. I don't even know what happened to them. I figured you'd want a set with mil recticles so you could range-find with them, and I don't believe mine had those. Hope this helped and I'm glad you enjoyed my sarcasm.

Semper Fi!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:00:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have to disagree with you on the Lee dies, I hate to admit this but my FL sizing die is a Lee and my seating die is a Redding BR. The Lee die resizes my necks to near a "0" run out the Redding BR die is around .002 on average and thats after a ton of time trying to get the thing set right.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:19:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
Viet Nam---.50 cal mg --sniper use ---gilli suits

Filming a Viet Nam sniper sequence using scoped .50cal machine gun as sniper weopen "ala" --Gunney Hatchcock and others.

Script calls for a one shot kill 1000yds than taking out some apc's .....Does first shot API and succeding shots API,tracer alternating sound right? Pyro effect should be great.
Would the sniper use a gillie suite. Script calls for homemade Ghillies - eerie looking burlap camoufage --plausible ???

Advising on film and want it as factual as possible.

Any and all comments and advice appreciate, via the thread or E-direct.............thanks all........MIKE
Michael R. Columbus <>
Israel - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:19:55 (ZULU) (your host address:


You're a hoot, thanks for the info on the binos and the
humor, when I get to my training down south, we'll have to link
up and kill some brain cells!!! Last Q' on the binos, were they the
issue type with the bigger objective, or were they the little
sawed off runt Steiners?

Know all about the girl watching, we used to harbor up with the Border Patrol guys and check out Blacks Beach (aka teh nudie beach) right off of Pendleton. It is then that you appreciate a fine pair of optics.

Talk to ya'

Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 19:44:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

My Steiners were the sawed-off type. My girlfriend, while I was in Austria, was a photographer and she had a pair of Zeiss that would knock your Aunt Connie's socks off. They were EXPENSIVE, though. Over a grand U.S. if she wasn't lying to me!! Maybe I should have kept her, now that I think about.;} Yes, you and I will get together and have a few when you're down here. If you're single I may even be able to hook you up with some female companionship.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 20:20:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Continueing with my .50 cal machine gun sniper enquiries---

I don't have a copy of Gun/srgt Hatchcock's book.Informed that there are pictures of the .50 cal telescoped hmg......Would appreciate if someone could scane and Email me any pictures from this book and any others they may have of .50 hmg sniper (telescoped).

Michael R. Columbus <>
Israel - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 20:42:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Good grief, I don't get to check in for a week and have to scroll all the way down to find out what this character "Mars" did to hurt my buddy Lito's feelings. That is not nice Mars! Please play pretty when on the site.

Well the business is officially over except custom fishing rods. Whew what a load off! Cleaned the last reel last night.

Now time to get serious. All this talk about reloading gave me an orgasm since I am going to place the order for the dies this weekend. 7 calibers. One question as usual. If I get the RCBS 2 die set, what do I do if I only want to neck size for the bolt guns? I talked to a bud and he says that he just doesn't take the FL die down all the way. This seems a little hinky to me. I still have the option of the Redding deluxe 3 die set. Understand that these are only Rem 700's not up to bench rest standards and I just want the best for the value.

Bolt <>
USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 21:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Charles: You ask one question, you get a million different answers. However, please remember that opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one. Sure, there's good and bad with all manufacturers, regadless of who they are.

My first die set and press were Lee's. I still use them. They work fine for me. I also have a number of their 6 cavity bullet moulds that have served me well. I won't throw away my Lee gear just because someone on this board said that Lee products were lower than whale shit.

Bottom line. You're going to have to go out and experiment a little to see what you like best. If you have a couple of shooting friends with gear from different manufacturers, then ask them if you can try their equipment out. You might get a little better insight as to what you like and what you don't like about each brand/product.

Jeff Babineau <>
Canada - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 21:45:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff of the North: I'd agree mostly, but it's kind of like someone telling you that they have a wonderfully reliable Fiat. Mebbe they do, and it's the only one. As a rule of thumb, I'd say if you can get a consensus between 3 or more people as to dies, presses, etc, then they're not only good, but consistently good. The best shine, the rest will be debated.

Bolt: don't feel like you have to buy a set. I quit purchasing sets. All dies are available individually, and there isn't enough of a savings to warrant getting anything you don't want. The backing out of a FL die to size necks is common. Better is the Redding collet die ;-) As for brands of dies, you really won't know what folks are talking about until you try it. My RCBS comp dies in 308 I thought were the bees knees, until Patron 'Lito told me I wouldn't be sorry for getting the Reddings. So I did. And I've got some RCBS dies for sale! Personally, I'm stuck on these Redding / Lyman combos for the rifles, and RCBS / Hornady combos for pistols. You make the call.
Bravo <>
half hour until shooting time, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 22:03:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: Yeah, you're right. Some brands do shine above the rest, and for the price you pay for them they had better. I paid more for my Rockchucker and my Dillon 550B than any of their immediate competition. I bought them because of what others had said, and because I had the opportunity to try them out first, before I bought them.

As far as I'm concerned, most of the mainsteam well established companies are making good quality products, with the warranty to back them up. I could care less who makes the product, if you aren't satisfied with the performance then send it back. It's that simple.

I truly enjoy my Dillon, Lee turret, Rockchucker and Hornady Lock-N-Load progressive. They all have been good to me so far.

Jeff Babineau <>! - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 22:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Rem 740, 742, 7400, 4 series of rifles cycle very quickly and this streches the brass in length and allows it to swell at the base due to the remaining pressure. These rifles will heat up the chamber area so that if you are in a humid area there will be condensation form in the chamber as it cools. That is will lead to rusting of the chamber and sticking of the fired cases. All semi and full auto loaders do this to a point and the military requires plated (chrome or some other material)chambers to solve this problem. Remington didn't want the expense to do this and sent out a inexpensive angle handled chamber cleaning brush with each of these beauties. Most folks wondered why Rem had sent them a "bent" brush and tossed it in file 13.

If you must reload the brass (and I wouldn't really recommend it) you can get "Small Base" dies from RCBS which will address the oversize issue at the base.

Off to Margaritaville,
Bo <>
Hotter'n 4 shades of Hades, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 23:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


I don't feel so bad now after hearing what you have to have done to the knee. ALL I'm getting is a ACL ligament repair and scaping out some damaged cartilage. Good luck man. Hey, maybe we can compare incisions when we get together!

Chuck & Eric,

That 600 yard range in Jax came from (Mike Crisler's site). There is a section on shoots and events and there is a 600 yard range mentioned where they hold the Orange Blossom Regional. Somehow affiliated with the Florida Sports Shooting Association. Does that help any?

I don't know - maybe I mixed some medicines I shouldn't have the other morning?!

Moe Mensale
Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, September 08, 2000 at 23:21:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

45 comment/question for the day: Pistol was cleaned and lubed, then fired a total of 375 rounds. That's 175 since the mag change with no jams. I was using the Springfield mag since then, and twice in today's 50 it jammed. Both times was like you inserted a round into the chamber and then gently let the slide come to rest on it. The extractor came to rest on the cartridge rim, didn't go into battery. So this is the mags fault, right? I hate chucking mags, but need to know if it'll work or not. Oh, to make things even more complex, I CLP'd the slide rails, bushing, link last night. COMMENTS HIGHLY DESIRED!
Bravo <>
man, nothing but problems!, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 00:10:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Michael R. Columbus - Re: .50 cal the comments about manipulating the trigger on the M-2 .50 cal to fire single shot seemed a little unintentionally mis-leading to me. If you have access to an M-2 .50 cal look at the backing plate between the butterfly triggers. There is a hook on the buffer assembly that rotates to engage or dis-engage the auto sear. When dis-engaged the fifty fires in semi-auto mode. When engaged it fires in auto mode. While it's been some time since I've set one up and used it, I spent in excess of nine years in mech infantry, and was intimately familiar with the weapon at one time.
Pat T <>
Upland, Ca, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 00:24:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
All: WHEWWWW!!!!! - just got done with SS1 at Storm Mountain... hogs... lemme tell ya... there's no comparison between that and the trainup course... Ya learn alot ... and ya move your ass alot.
Best darn weight loss program that I've seen. Long days filled with lots of action and instruction - outstanding - no other description needed.
The .308 towed performed beautifully. I got kidded alot for having that 'big f****g barrell' on the .308towed. Ya do feel that 20 lb rifle humping those hills - but - hey - train extra for it.

Marius - keep yer shirt on... I have a crappy internet connection from this hotel.. will straighten out your password problem when I get home tomorrow afternoon.


Ken Hunter ;)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 00:50:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: Is the mag that was working, or the first that wasn't?

Ken: 20 lbs? You ARE kidding, aren't you?

Kush: Didn't I tell you that Mike hates Wilsons and ain't bashful?

All: The wife is pissed over some stupid something. SO,... I GO ELK HUNTING!!! (I LOVE IT when she gets mad during hunting season.)

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 01:23:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC: that was the Springfield mag that didn't work in the beginning, did after I changed out the spring. You're a lucky guy. When my wifie gets mad, well, things are not fine in the Bravo household. I've found that if I douse myself in Bravo Brew, I don't mind though. Now you guys know why I said something about the brew is good, and good for me.

Ken: at 20 pounds, you make me feel wimpy. My 16 unloaded was quite heavy enough for me!
Bravo <>
gonna question Springfield about their mags!, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 01:41:45 (ZULU) (your host address:


It most likely is the mag, possibley the ammo if re-loads were the flavor of the day.

The problem with the 1911 mags are the follower will tilt down and the tip of the bullet will hit the top of the mag well on the lower reciever. Remedy, do the same as I did with my M16 mags, double spring em'. That will give enoufg tension on the follower so it will not tilt.

That is all I have to say about that


you are right,Ziess makes killer glass, and that is a no-shitter!

Semper Fi!

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 01:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm sure that most of us know about the outstanding funtion and reliability of Wilson Combat handguns and Scattergun Technologies shotguns. Now here is the question anyone have first hand experience with Wilson's new AR style Tactical Rifles?? I've just gotten the catalog and they appear to be first class. But would like to knoof Wat you'all know, especially any first hand accounts. E-mail me with any good info.


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 05:02:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi everyone!

I spoke to Mike Lau at Texas Brigade Armory today(Saturday morning New Zealand time, Friday evening Texas time).

My rifle has finally been shipped!

Hopefully I will have it in less than a week so I can get the scope mounted and zeroed and prepare for the NZ Police shooting champs in November.

He is struggling to keep up with the amount of orders he has but is still taking orders for those of you who want to wait(He says 12 months but count on up to 18).

Breakpoint: Sorry, didn't have time to ask him about your rifle, International calls are not cheap.

Mike also said the web page has only been taken off line while a new one is being designed and will back soon.

We shall see.


Sniff <>
Auckland, New Zealand - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 08:32:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wilson AR's. They sure are proud of 'em. If you do the math, that's what? A $700 lower? Yeesh.

Leslie, you still around?
Jim <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 12:55:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Are you giving the .45 mag any lube? That may be your problem. Thanks for all of your help with my questions. I'm thinking rock-chucker for a beginning press. What do you think?

Moe, Cory, Eric,
Sho' nuff!!! They do list a 600yd range in Jax at High Power Rifle's web sight. I can't seem to find out which one they use. I plan on calling Monday to see if I can't find that range. I'm about ready to get on the Buell with the .460 1911-A1 from Clark and see how it works. I won't have a chrony, so my full assesment will hafta wait another few days.

Thanks for all of the response on the reload question.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 14:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sarge: I didn't get a Wilson, but there's an amazing reason: money. Even with all the nifty upgrades I had done to mine, it was roughly half price. And this way, I get the Burger King deal, I got it "my way". I'll put money on it working 110% right out of the box, as Geoff is a REALLY knowlegable guy, and among other things, THE Navy National Match armorer. Same guy that Patron Dave said something about his AR's being great, and the same guy that built my '25. Unfortunately, I haven't fired it yet, the freakin' brown shirts are messin' with me again. I'm expecting it no later than Monday morning, probably get it in about a week. It was sent off 5 days ago in the morning.

Kush: home brewed loads are the flavor of EVERY day. My rounds, each one, will gauge perfectly or not go. My ammo is in every facet as good as "factory", but with way more attention paid to every detail. That's why I even keep my loads in the "social pistol", I have 110% confidence in them. Out of all the ammo I've ever loaded, 2 rounds failed to work perfectly, and that was a LONG time ago!

Chuck: oops, forgot it wasn't a Glock ;-) Honestly, I've NEVER lubed a Glock mag, and this mag might be a little dirty. Of course, it would instill greater confidence in me if the pistol and mag worked while carrying a little extra grit or carbon! Now to the loading question. I started the same way, so I can't say it's "bad", but I would say probably not optimal. First off, 'Lito's right, the C-H press is a dandy, and I'd trade my rockchucker off on that in a heartbeat. At only $20 more new, I'd go with the C-H out of the gate for a single stage. I started with a single stage because I had questions about my capability with a progressive, and the progressives capability for accurate fodder. Both were completely unfounded. My opinion is if you can field strip a '16, you can load great ammo on a progressive, it's not rocket science. My statement will be: if you want to load LOTS of great ammo QUICK, get a progressive. If you want to load LOTS of great ammo SLOW, get a single stage. It could be noted though that I've got a bunch of "stations" on my bench to mimic a progressive, but with different tools. Then I got smart and bought the Hornady. In the "old days" before the boy was born (and before I had the progressive) and I was competing more regularly, it was understood that I would use a Saturday and Sunday loading each month. Now I churn out the same ammo in an evening after work. Your call!

Sorry for taking up so much band width, just thought that more people than just Chuck might be interested in hearing about this, I've got several mails about loading lately.
Brew Master Bravo <>
Heck, I brew EVERYTHING at home!, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 15:43:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC (20 lbs): no I'm not kidding.... that thing weighs 19.5 lbs without the swivel bipod and without the leather sling and without ammo.

I will catch up with you hogs later... gotta unpack and tend to the farm...

P.S. I have to knock the web server down for about 20 minutes today to replace the power suppply in it... so keep yer shirts on if you notice..

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Back and sore, from SMTC, and unpackin.... - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 15:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

When you get in (and after you fix Marius' password;)... gimme a call, and let's chat. Is it "TWENTY" pounds... my M24 is 14 pounds... a friggin' "Feather weight" mountain rifle ;)

Not $20 bucks... I don't recomend the C-H single station to new loaders because it's $250, and a Rockchucker is about $100... and not too many will spend $250 on a single station press... you gotta want that muscle BAD!


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 15:59:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe...I lost my post. Let me try again. Thanks dude, do I get to count all of the holes from the pins and screws that were in my leg? Chuck will tell you I'm trying not to let this crap slow me down. I was shooting from a wheelchair as soon as they let me come home from the hospital. Wow, now it's "knee surgery" country!

Chuck, just let me know what weekend and I'll be there to shoot. I have another case o' match .308 on order so we'll have plenty to wizz down range.

Larue Targets...they look really spiffy. Cost a pretty penny too. I think that if I could build/sell them for half the price, well, they would sell like hot cakes. Chuck I'll e-mail you with some ideas I have. Time to use my engineering skills. I love banging steel more than I like making pretty little tight groups. I see a plasma cutter and a tig welder in my future. Anyone have any cool ideas for a self resetting target that is simple and inexpensive?
Cory <>
Panama Cccity, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 16:08:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

OH...BTW. I have a Leupold M-3LR that had paint on it from my trip to Storm. Rod painted my rifle, but now the paint has to come off. Anybody know how to get spray paint off of the Leupold scope WITHOUT hurting the scope's fininsh? I used gun scrubber to get the paint off of the action, barrel, scope rings and bipod, but, I was not concerned with the condition of the finish after paint removal. The action is getting blasted to accept teflon. The barrel is going in the trash or the G'smith is keeping it for something. I've tried thinner and gun scrubber, but both want to damage the OEM finish on the scope. Makes it look hazy. I'm open to suggestions gents.
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 16:31:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
The hazy look should be just the surface oil being removed, like when your fingers turn white then "gun scruber" gets on them.
It's anodized, and shoulldn't be affected by any kind f solvents or paint remover.

Ken (aka "Chainsaw"), removed the paint from his rig last year, and it had no ill effects.
Put a little oil on the scope, and wipe it off, and see if the hazy stuff disapears.

You don't have to sand blast to put on a Teflon finish... I was told that, but it turned out to be bull... I did a rifle this summer, and the barrel was stainless with a mirror finish, and the action was stainless with a factory sandblasted finish... and they both look the same... a very nice, uniform, matte finish!

Is your wife back from the mall yet ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 17:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well guys, I finally got my first batch of 338 Lapua brand brass to work with. Up till now I have been using just Norma brand. The Lapua brand is much thicker. It will not work with my Hornady Brand 338 Lapua sheelholder, but the RCBS 45/70 sheelholder works fine. The Hornady works fine on the Norma brand. I would complain to Lapua but they designed the round so it looks like Hornady went opps.

On getting paint off of a scope. Take some good gloves and a rag. Soak the rage in lacquer thinner and wipe the paint off. Do this outside with a fan blowing the fumes away from you. Keep the lenses protected from the thinner. When you are all done wipe a little oil on the tube. NOW READ THIS:LACQUER THINNER WILL MAKE YOU SICK, STUPID OR DEAD IF YOU BREATH ENOUGH OF IT.

Bravo, the jams could be many things. Dirty, tight or a limp wrist. I mean you haver been shooting a 9mm and mave have lost your muscle tone. LOL

Guys on the AR stuff. Watch out, it seems everyone is on the bandwagon to make money off the little guns. If you want a protection piece get something with Military grade parts in it. No fancy crap. Make it dependable first and then worry about shooting enough rounds to hit with it. I see more guys try and buy hits with weapons without spending the trigger time to be good. I will take a guy who has shot many thousands of rounds through an A2, Sprignfield 1911, or PSS over a guy that has spent many thousands of dollars and just dreamed of shooting it.

Trigger control
Follow through

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 17:36:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck and 'Lito: sorry for the misinformation. I could have sworn I remembered the C-H being $125 or there abouts. Since that's the case (hey, I trust you!) I'd be happy with the big single stages in the $100 range. The Rock Chucker, Redding Boss, or even the Hornady big boy (probably in that order). Heck 'Lito, I recall getting their catalog and checking it out, didn't remember that price though! That's more than the Ultramag or the Co-Ax! Mebbe that's what I was thinking, about $20 more than a Co-Ax?

Cory: 'Lito's right on with that. As for myself, I like freon, notably F-134A. Strips paint, but won't mess with anodizing, since that's an oxide and freon is inert. Get a heavy one (liquid) and wipe the stuff off with a cloth. Just don't get it on plastics. Truth to tell, I doubt you're going to mess with anodizing with common solvents. It's harder than the al-you-minnie-yum under it!
Bravo <>
Nazis and UPS guys, both brown shirts, any coincidence?, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 17:46:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have recently placed an order for a Ruger Stainless .243 and a 3-9x44mm scope. Sorry it's a Tasco. I am a buck hunter and wanted a flat shooting round so it's not a .308. This is my first all new rifle and I was wondering how much difference a sling makes. I have never used a sling to aid in placing a shot. Is there an advantage to using a sling or is it just to retain the weapon in unstable or hostile environments? Also what is the best way to cheaply and effectively camouflage a stock/barrel/scope setup?

Also a word to any California Civilian Citizens. Speak up now before they take our guns forever. It could get real ugly if the laws keep coming out the way they are.

E. Paz
E. Paz <>
Sunny , California, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 17:53:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

To JackSmack2000
Use a sling!! A properly used sling will greatly enhance your shooting platform, will firm up your position and take some of the "Wobble" out of the rifle that occurs when you are trying to hold the rifle up by muscle alone. I highly recommend Mike Millers Sling!! It is very effective!!Cheapest way I know of to camouflage your set up is to paint it.
Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 18:17:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for helping out there. Trust all is well with you and the Huntress and ... what is her name again? About 14/15 years now if I remember correctly?

now you should be able to post agian - not that it really stopped you in any case! Last day and a half is 77K in any case!

Keep the good stuff coming.

Marius <>
RSA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 19:29:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks to everyone who replied about my reloading questions, both on and off roster. You reaffirmed some of my own opinions, and more importantly, pointed out a lot of things I hadn't thought of. Keep up the good work men.

Thanks again!

Brian <>
OR, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 19:39:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

JackSmack2000 (slings):
A sling will definitely enhance your position. I would also recommend that you try to find your way into a school or clinic that teaches precision rifle shooting with slings and supported positions.
There are quite a few throughout the U.S. You could try to visit Mike Miller out there and buy some of his personal time and of course one of his slings... In that case - you could get a good sling and some good shooting instruction to boot :)

Removing paint from Leupold scope:
I removed spray paint from my leupold scope - knobs and all using
paint stripper and a tooth brush. Trick is - don't leave it on there too long. Blop it on with a toothbrush... then go back and start rubbing it with that tooth brush. It won't take long to break down that spray paint. Leave the flip caps or lense covers in place while you are doing this. Remove and clean them later off to the side. I removed the paint sludge with a damp lacquer thinner rag.
Be patient with this process. Afterward - I put a very thin coat of oil on the scope housing, then dried with a rag. On the leupold scope that I did - you can't tell it was ever painted.

Huntress's name is Kim (aka Major Kim)

Good Luck All

Ken :)

Good Luck

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 19:41:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


No, not the Huntress, but the Junior Huntress. :-) (Nadine or something similar? No, Nadine doesn't look right.)

Does she share your and Kim's interest?

Marius <>
RSA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 21:28:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

For all of you who've become Vargetized, an interesting thing happend today while launching projectiles at distant things. I had a primer blow out with a tested, tried and true load of Varget in my 308.
Only one out of 50, so what the F**? over.
Well I get home, look at the lot number, same stuff I've been using.
Check the measure setting, same same. Throw and weigh 20 charges, plus/minus half a tenth.
So then I pour all the powder out of the canister, low and behold, out come several very mortified flies!
Appearently they've hitched a ride to Texas (who could fault that)
and displaced enough of the powder to over compress it. Ain't that just one more thing to look for.......and I just got done screening my soup.
Mike in Texas <>
TEXAS!!, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 00:56:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ken, Mike M. and the rest o'the crew. Thanks for the info on the paint removal...You're right, I tried a little rem oil on the parts of the scope I already stripped...looks good...but it looks like I may have some scratches. I know it's cosmetic, but I want this new rifle to at least look good on day one. I'll use a softer cloth on the rest.

Bravo: Where do I get Freon 134A?

Lito, Of all of the items I have applied teflon to, the beadblasted ones seem to hold the finish better. It works well on mirror finish if I use scotchbrite to prep the suface. I want to get the Winchester finish off of the action, the 'smith is going to b-blast the K&P barrel to match. This thing is going to weigh a ton. I ordered it with a #8 contour barrel. I guess It will be towed .300 win mag like someone else's on the roster. I'm thinking it will help with the .300 WM recoil with out resorting to a muzzle brake. Not that the .300 recoil is all that bad.

Has anyone used the Browwnells OD green teflon spray? Does it look OD or some pukey green color?

Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:10:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh yeah...she came back from the mall. Mall commandos are terrified she'll come back with all my cammo is a bit gauche in public now. so she got strange looks. I'll have to get her some designer cammies....Like the mall rats wear....Sky blue cammo, What the hell is that?
Cory <>
thecreeknexttomyhouseisgingtooverflow, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 01:28:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory: we don't get our freon, we HAVE our freon ;-) I'm getting to be the one answer guy, and that answer is freon. Guess I picked that up from my partner, who thinks that duct tape is THE answer! LOL. Lemme know where.

UnDude, honey babe, I love you so, but I don't have a limp wrist. WHINEEEEE. LOL!!! The muscle tone I lost, and significant as it is, was long before I moved to the 9. Guess your muscle tone is coming back with the "new and improved" foot? In my case, the 20 pounds from upper body muscle just moved to the belly, something some running would cure.

Ken: good to hear you made it home in one piece. You carrying that towed gives those of us in "less than ideal" shape a thought of capability anyway. What the heck, right? Sore muscles are temporary, the memories will last forever (not memories of sore muscles though). HA!

OK guys, I've formally done it. The Hornady Lock-n-Load is torqued. Somehow the plate doesn't line up with the priming station by about 5 degrees, just enough to off center the primers. Now I've got a stack of 45's and 5.56's to load. Any help getting this back working would be really appreciated! First screw up with a Hornady press....

After playing around on the "other sites", I gotta tell you guys, you're ALL great. This is the place, and the best one at that. Thanks for the info, fun, education, and friendship!
Bravo <>
how many folks it take to take over Cuba?, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 02:05:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm on the way to bed with the RugRat... I will e-mail you with instructions on how to to adjust the Lock-N-Load tomorrow... it's easy... two little screws.

The RugRat just upgraded a belt in Kung-Foo... and the little booger keeps growing ;)

Just wait until he gets into "Sniper-Foo" :) I'll have a spotter that will hump all that crap for "Poor ol' dad!".

I'll use guilt... "... and remember when I watched all those cartoons with you?"

Nite, nite!


Ken... call me when you're able to pick up a phone.
Pablito <>
... only ONE, and a red button, located in the good ol', USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 03:14:37 (ZULU) (your host address:


Designer AR's - Wilson's, ZM Weapons, etc, etc. Nice to look at and mighty expensive, close to $2K. Are they worth it? Dunno. What do you want the gun for - show and tell, NRA Highpower or SHTF? My Colt A2 is a defensive weapon, not a tack driver. I paid $900 for it (bargains are out there), PRE-BAN (because we still have that right), 20" standard barrel, standard iron sights. I feed it only Win Q3131A (M193).

The money I saved buys me about 5,000 rounds of 5.56 with which to PRACTICE with, as Mr. Undude said. The gun is battle zeroed to 50yds near, 200yds far. This uses the flatest part of the 5.56's trajectory. The black (9, 10, X) on a standard NRA 100 yard military target is about 6 1/2 inches across. I can consistently (now) put about 95% of my shots into the black, offhand or bench, at 100 yards. Hardly precision work but very good for its intended purpose.

If you are really interested in getting into the Black Rifle Syndrome, I would suggest you jump over to Everything you ever wanted to know about "evil" assault weapons!


Pins and screws, huh? Remind me never to go to an airport with you!

Moe Mensale <>
sweatdrippingfromeverthingtoday, FL, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 04:16:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well all I want is an AR that will shoot 55 gr handloads and cheap stuff, into something less than 6" at 100 yds. Actually want something more like 2-3", especially with the cheap stuff, at 100 yds. I already have a box stock Colt 16" A3 that will to the 6" 100 yd. bit with almost anything I can feed into it. I'm working a handload with...shudder, shake, squirm...Varget (a compressed load and DAMN close to max.) and 55 gr Sierra soft points that are working to 1.5-2" at 100 yds. at about 2950 fps average. Need to keep working on that. So what do I want; keep a 16" barrel, heavier, free floated and a way better trigger, keep the front sight so I can use open, ACOG Reflex or scope as situation dictates.
Ok so help me out!
Yeah I know we all have to have a dream ;-)


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 05:00:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE: AR15's has Bushmaster DCM competition rifles for $1180. Lots of other good stuff.

P.S. California is starting to suck! If I can't sell my Sig Sauer in CA before the end of the year, I have to sell it out of state next year. I spent all of last year trying to sell music equipment to buy an AR15 and a .308. Now it's too late for AR in CA, but at least I got my bolt action .308 finally!
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, CA, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 05:01:21 (ZULU) (your host address:



To --Kent, Al Rick et all ...Thanks for the pics and information that you all sent on to me. It'll help a lot (or should as Rick pointed out -Reality and fantasy "AIN"T" the same thing).
Any other info will be appreciated................MIKE
Michael R. Columbus <>
Israel - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 07:00:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

As far as Cal's Sporting Armory, it is in my neighborhood and, although it is a small shop, they are very well stocked with great prices. They can also order quickly just about any item. I bought several key items for my current rig from there.
Hank <>
East L.A., formerly known as Denver, Colorado, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 07:10:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Okay I'll take the bait. Who's Mike Miller? Also I noticed the picture of the complete M24SWS comes with a leather sling. Is leather the best choice for any obvious reasons? Is it worth ordering a 50mm scope over a 44mm? I still have a couple of days before the order goes in. What exactly is Bowflage? I am picturing tape wrapped over and then painted. Thanks for all the intel guys. Can't wait to zero in my new rifle.

Relegalize the right to protect your Liberties. Write a letter. Make a phone call. Fire off an e mail. But speak up and be heard.

E. Paz

E. Paz <>
Somewhere , California, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 07:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Fellow Rosterfarians:
My ballistic software won't run right. Would one of you guys crunch some numbers for me? MV=2650 BC=.469 Weight=175
I'm looking for bullet path from a 100 yd. Zero out to 1,000 yd. in 50 yd increments.
I sure would appreciate it.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 10:00:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have a scope question for you all. Has anyone ever had the M1 turrets put on either their Leupold 6.5-20X LRT or 4.5-14x LRT by Premier Reticles? The reason I'm asking is because I'm looking at these scopes but I don't like the target knobs I like the M1 knobs better and I know Premier Reticles does the work. I was wondering if they just put on the knobs or do they also put on a small turret around the knob like on the Mark 4's and Vari-X III M1's. Also I was reading some posts that say the mildots on these scopes is different through out the power setings. What power is it set for? The highest? also has anyone had Premier calibrate their mildots to being the same on all powers? Thanks for the help. Either drop me an e-mail or post the response so others can find out the info.
Rob <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 11:34:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Paz: Mike is, among other things, a great sling maker. He's a tremendous shot, good friend and a all around great guy too ;-) Is leather the best? A year ago I would have said yes, now that I've got one of the UnDude's slings, I say no. The ONLY reason for a leather sling now is for competitions where they call Mike's sling an unfair advantage. That's a hint. It's my opinion that if there is any sling out there that's better, it's well hidden and I can't say I've ever seen it. Write letters? Orrin Hatch absolutely SHUDDERS when he sees my name on the return address. We don't see eye to eye, and I'm not ashamed to let him know about it!

Sarge and AR's: mine is as follows: standard A2 upper and lower, but with 1/2 MOA NM sights. Douglas premium airgauged stainless barrel custom turned to WAY LIGHT configuration. Freefloat handguard tube (not the one where you use standard handguards, the one that takes the place of the handguards). Aluminum gas block at CAR position, standard A2 sight at rifle position. White trigger adjusted for 3.5 lbs crisp, and an A1 stock (hey, I'm short). Phantom flash hider and ergo-grip pistol grip. Didn't ask about a bayo lug, wouldn't work in any case, but it's pre-ban. This was significantly less than what Moe gave. Oh, everything that can be is US GI. Now you can see why I'm waiting for the brown shirts with anticipation! Geoff says that in the test-fire, it was sub MOA by a good bit ;-)
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 14:37:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe...Nah, All of the pins and screws came out of the last application. It was an external fixator and I had a "halo" around the right knee...that's as close as I'm going to get to one! LOL. The next round of surgery will implant the plate and screws to "fix" my knee. It'll level the tibial plateau and lenghten the leg to it's original length. Then I'll be able to gross out little kids by sticking magnets to the side of my knee!!

Bravo. Guess I'll stick to gun scrubber or some other solvent. Bummer.

Welcome back Ken...Glad you had a good time. Rod does'nt work you very hard at all, does he. (evil grin).

If you gents are looking for a custom riflesmith that does a fantastic job at a reasonable price and does not take a million years to build YOUR rifle, E-mail me direct and I will send you his contact data. As soon as I get access to a digi camera I will post pics of his product. My gun should be back around Nov. or Dec. Whenever he brings rifles in to the shop he brings targets that show the rifles capabilities. The last .338 LM he built the largest group ran 1/2 inch, but that was with a called flyer, and the smallest of the three three shot group ran .161 (all at 100 yards).
Cory <>
PC, FL, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 14:45:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Michael R.

Saw your post, and the reference to fantasy, and knowing Rick... he's one of the most knowledgeable guys on the site.

I'll make this comment about that shot... it's not a slam on Carlos, though some would consider it as such... but it's just another dose of reality.

There has been much made (perhaps too much), of the Carlos 2500 yd shot with the 50 cal M2.

Keep in mind this... the standard M2 50 cal, is not a very accurate firearm... maybe 2 to 3 inch grouping ability at 100 yards, fired one shot at a time. It was designed to punch through light armor, destroy equipment, punch through cinderblock, and light concrete, tear up airplanes... etc. Not a target rifle.

Add to that, the ammo is not "match" and has a fair amount of dispersion... the ultimate "grouping" ability of an M2 with issue ammo at 2500 yds might be about the size of a 4 story building.

Also, at best, assuming there was a rifle that could shoot a human sized group at that range (???), the falling angle of the round is so steep, that a miss calculation of only 50 yards in range would result in an over or under shot of +/- 25 feet... and the shot was made before laser ranging equipment.

The shot was one of many that were fired each morning, and evening, to harass the "enemy"... keep them away from water, etc... and that one shot just happened to "hit".

The rest was press. This does not detract from Carlos Hathcock's true achievements... they were earned the hard way... but don't make this shot some magic high point in your movie... you'll do a disservice to a fine hero.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 15:05:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

E.Paz: Congrats on the purchase of the new rifle. That being said, I can't imagine the deer-hunting question for which the rifle you describe is the answer. Though I've started shooting heavy barreled rifles a little, since I somewhat specialize in shooting sporters, I shoot them much better than I do the heavy ones. I do not shoot good enough to make a .243 work for deer. That's especially true at longer ranges. A deer will carry a 100 gr slug A LOT farther than he will something heavier. .243s fail. I've never seen a deer shot with a 6.5, but, if the stories are to believed, that's one good answer. I've seen a whole bunch shot with .270, .7mm-.08, .280, and various flavors of .30 cal. If you get a well constructed bullet, any of those will definitely do the job. The 7mm-08 comes in short actions and doesn't kick much. That or the .260 would be my answer for a rifle that was NEVER to be used on elk.

I'm not going to cuss Ruger. That stock, however, needs help in the form of packing the action to a point about 2" in front of the recoil lug with something like devcon. Otherwise the action is stressed, torqued and waving in the breeze.

O.K., on this sling question. For these heavy rifles I truly belive I've never seen a better answer that Mike Miller's slings. I have one now, and, in due time, I'll have two more. They're good, and you'll never hear me say different. But, for aquiring a sitting slung position with a sporter in less than 1.5 seconds, I'll take a leather 'Ching Sling' every time. The leather has more friction and doesn't rely on being cinched down. To employ it you jam your arm through, drop to sitting and go bang quick, quick. Those flush mounted 'Uncle Mike's' swivvels attach to the stock with Devcon. Uglier than cat s**t on cardboard, but it works.

Now then, to the scope: You don't make 600 yard shots on deer with anything resembling the rifles discussed here. 400 is a long shot with these rifles under true field conditions. You are more likely to get 1.5 seconds to hit a pie pan sized target at 100 yards. That's a snap-shot and a job for a fairly low powered QUALITY scope mounted low over the bore. Let me reemphasize QUALITY! I HATE surprises. A 4X will also work for the longish shots you'll do. D&R sells the plain vanilla Loopie for about the same as the Tasco you mentioned.

Add a Milt Sparks leather butt-cuff, built-up to give you a good stock weld, and this is a tool for actually killing deer in the real world.

That's the easy part. Now learn to shoot it. I, for one, am still learning.

The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the management ...etc, etc, etc.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 16:42:39 (ZULU) (your host address:


I don't know what you are talking about. I briefly saw your post regarding my misbehaving and not being nice to 'lito. I trolled back thru and don't see anywhere in here where I have made any remark of the negative type to him.

Indeed I would suspect that had I said something wrong to him there wold be a truck load of responses from him and the other regulars here.

Perhaps you're needin some glasses.


If for some reason Bolt is correct, let me know what it was so I can decide if what I said was right or not.


I just received my choate USS Major Paster type stock and want to put my Savage 110 Tactical .300 WM into it. Are there any special considerations I need to be aware of? Should I take it to the local armorer or is it the kind of thing a straight shootin but non-technical type like me can put together?

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Don't know what yer talkin about here in, NY, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 17:11:55 (ZULU) (your host address:


I find your callin me a "character" offensive.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 17:15:04 (ZULU) (your host address:


I'm terribly upset (bawling, bawling, bawling). You spent "significantly less" than my $900 for what appears to be (by your description) a customized AR? I'm hurt. I thought I stole my R6551 from the dealer (who obviously didn't know what he had).

I don't have a bayo lug either, but that Phantom flash suppressor looks like it could do a standup job in a pinch!

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 17:25:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Question, folks...

Other than cost, would a .30-378 Weatherby make a good sniper rifle? According to the ballistics, a 165g bullet would still be at 2480 fps, have 2253 ft lbs, and have a 19" drop @500 yards. It sounds good, but everyone seems enamored with the Remington 700 in .308.

What am I missing?

dave <>
wentzville, mo, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 17:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe: yup, it's all brand new and custom, and I'm expecting the final bill, with shipping to be in the neighborhood of $730. Caveat: I sent him a hand fit from the factory set of stripped upper and lower PWA receivers I squirrelled away in '90 for 'just such an emergency'. Since I met Geoff, I've quit buying rifles stock, as you can tell. The next thing to go out to him will either be a bare Springfield Armory M1A receiver and US GI fiberglass stock / handguard to be built up into a battle rifle at "rack grade" weight, but better (filled with US GI parts!) or a GASP! Remington standard length 700 (just 'cause I have it) and McMillan. And you guys thought I couldn't shoot a bolt gun!

Mars and Bolt: I caught that a while back, but I think Bolt got confused. The scuffle was between Matt and Patron 'Lito. Mars just did the stand up job ;-)

Paz: I'm sorry, I didn't catch that this was a hunter. Brother CDC is right. You wouldn't catch me hunting with my monster rifle (it's too heavy, and I'm too lazy to hump it for miles). I've got a nice lightweight sporter built upon a Krag carbine action (not by me, I purchased it pre-butchered). For hunting at range, I prefer the fixed 4 that CDC mentioned also. As for power, the 30-40 does the trick!
Flu master Bravo <>
sorry guys, I post too much when I'm sick, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 17:59:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr. Dan,
My order goes in on Monday,(09-11-00). I chose the rifle because of Ruger's reputation for being overengineered and the fact that it was all stainless at a reasonable price. I had planned to replace the stock with a drop in overmolded Hogue next month. The Win 70 Featherweight and the Rem 700 Mountain are both about 100.00 more. That's half a scope right there. Add in that the Ruger comes with rings and it seems like a deal to me.
Any timely advice will be helpful and appreciated.
Please feel free to forward this to all the gun guys you know. I will check my mail Monday morning before calling the dealer. I have already decided to change the chambering to .308.
Thanks again.
Don't forget to vote.

--- CDC wrote:
> E.,
> If you haven't committed to taking exactly that
> rifle in exactly that
> caliber, some of the guys on the Roster could make
> some useful
> suggestions.
Paz <>
Somesmalltown, California, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 18:01:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Flu Master Bravo",

Thanks for the defence. I was wondering if maybe those voices in my head had finally gotten control O' me fingers and I just didn't catch it.


Its good to see that you are a stand up guy and went to the plate for 'lito. Watchin the back of a team member is always an integral part of your mission. Hooaah to you, no harm no foul.

Play Hard!


Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 18:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


BillR. says I can't spell, guess I can't read either. That comes with old age, beware.
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 18:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address:


As I said no harm Bro. I am still with ya.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Oneonta if you add a "p" to the end of my city's name what do ya get?, NY, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 18:49:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

You got it Mars! With very few exceptions, would find it a pleasure and an honor to cover the 6 or fight side by side with anyone on this site. This is the first place that I bookmarked when I got a puter that I could actually use to surf the net. It is THE best site for long range shooting on the net BAR NONE.

Although I haven't met any of the folks [that will change for sure next year, have a date with AlO. next year at the Egg Shoot now that I found the place], I respect the talents and sometimes even the humor [well some humor anyway] of everyone here. Masters Gooch, Lito, PeteR, BillR., Bowcher, Sarge and of course the Undude have put up with my ramblings and redundant questions for a long time. One of these days I may even be able to contribute something myself.

Stupid things that are camoflaged:
Cigarette lighters! Is the smoke camo'd also LOL?
Billfolds! Gonna pay while you play?
Underwear! Really can't figger this one out!
Name some more!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 19:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am a brit long-range rifleman(well, up to 1000 YDS)
Using a Remi'PSS in 308 I do my best in comps.
Tried a "snap-cap" to aid trigger control, can lift the bolt handle but not pull it back. Need to bounce the rifle on its butt whilst wrestling with bolt handle to eject the cap.
Been sailing close to the wind with overall length of home-load bullets, had one ripped apart when trying to open bolt without firing it, guess too close to the wind.......
ANY advice would be gratefully received.
Ken Wyatt
ken Wyatt <>
Manchester, Cheshire, UK - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 19:17:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
Lito; Am reminded of Billy Dixon's shot on the Indian and 1500 plus with the Sharps. And one of my own on a quartering wide open Coyote out the window of a suburban moving 25mph at 250 yards. A bullet has to go somewhere! There are certain targets that just insist on gettin in the way. Carlo's scope on the 50 made great press. 6" 1000 yard 10 shot groups are no total accident. Neither was the Indian shot, but a lot of luck was involved.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 19:24:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ya got that right there Mr Bolt. I am shootin and adjustin as much as I can afford both cash and time wise so that maybe I can catch these brothers at a real shoot someplace.

So how bout it; anyone think I gotta do anything other than drop tha Chaote USS onto my Savage or is there some secrets I need to know?

Play Hard!

Mars <>
OneOnTa + P = Oneontap , NY, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 19:40:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

If ya listen to some of Carlos's videos... he'll laugh and tell about some of those shots that were missed too.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 20:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

after all - if you don't miss - how the heck are you going to improve. Our field fire test for SS1 on Friday at Storm Mountain was easy - we had a very unusual afternoon where there was NO WIND.
We kidded Rod about that - but his point is valid: to get a good honest eval of how we progressed in shooting and calling the wind during the week - it would have been better to have the typical winds for storm (random gusts usually right to left, a swirl here and there).

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 20:11:01 (ZULU) (your host address:


An interesting thread is struggling to be born here. When Michael brings up the question on Gunny H's 2K yard plus shot with the BMG. There are so many variables in making a shot at any distance. As the distance increases the time that those variables can effect the flight of the bullet increases, the accuracy of distance determination drops and the time of flight increases. ANYONE that tells you that they can hit a human target, in a field firing environment, with a cold bore and no sighters at distances greater than 800 or so yards is probably in a fantasy world.

On the Billy Dixon shot. I think the quote is "Either Billy had a lucky day or the Indian had a very unlucky one."

Gooch <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 20:42:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

BillR: Get in on this deer-rifle string of Paz. Your experience in getting blood all over your nice, new boots would be of value.

Dave .30-.378: There is more to a rifle's effectiveness than ballistics tables. Get into a nice cozy prone with a rifle that generates something like that kind of recoil. A lightweight .338 is pretty wimpy, but it will do. Shoot two twenty shot strings. Now have your partner hand you the rifle a few times without telling you if its loaded or not. When you drop the firing pin on an empty chamber, how do your crosshairs look on your target? Unless you have the pain tolerance of a brass buddah, those crosshairs are doing all kinds of undesirable things.

Now, how long does that barrel last? How much does it cost to shoot? How fast does the tube heat up?

Mars: I'll say it. Not only are you a character, you're a HELL of a character. Welcome aboard.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 20:58:14 (ZULU) (your host address:


Master Dave L,

Your e-mail address keeps getting bounced back on me.

I Got a burning last minute question for you on the Project.



just back in BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 21:20:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

No Dude... we're cool!
And don't be offended at Bolt calling you a "charactor"... he's one of the best "charactors" we got!... and I'll hump an Alice pack with him anytime... 'specially if it's to a trout stream... he is a "REEL DOCTOR"!! no jokin' :))

Boltster Dude-ski...
Mars didn't say anything that I can think of... course I get so much heat, I wouldn't recognize an insult if I heard one. You should hear what the sheepies say to me on a date ;)
Man do I have a lappin job for you... I'm cutting down the front ring on a set of Badgers, for a 1800 yd shoot, and the total is .07"... yah almost a 1/10 of an inch... wanna come up and visit for a few days ;)).

And speakin' of Reel Doctors... I've been throwing my #308 UL Garcia at fish for some 20 years now (I throw the reel, hold onto the lure... works better!)
I went to get the RugRat a new rig today (he outgrew the Snoopy one), and there's nothing but HondaKawaGoochieFoo reels, and poles... what the hell happened to Garcia? Their stuff was damn good!

Some of us are enamored with the Winchester M70, in .308 too ;)

But to answer you... the 30-378 is a bitch on barrels, having a useful life of something like just sighting it in ;)... you have to shoot a lot to be good with a long range rifle, and most of us would go through five or six 30-378 barrels in a good year, but we couldn't get them re-barreled fast enough... also, the blast, and muzzle flash would be your death... if you shot from dry grass, you'd set the stuff on fire...
plus it's not a pleasent gun to shoot for 100 to 200 rounds prone, and your spotter would leave town, and you'll be on your own.

On what Gooch said...

You go to your spot, unpack your kit, range your target, and fire one shot, with a "Must hit" or no shoot condition.
Yup... What Gooch said! 800 yds is a good call.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 22:11:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was reading an article on the right sniping lead for moving
targets recently, and an idea developed. I would be happy if you experts can tell me if it would work, or why it wouldn't-- anything to put my mind at rest.
Long-range shooters usually have a pretty good idea of the distance of the mark--some will do it with a laser finder, others will
have optical rangefinders, some will use mil-dot ranging, and then there's always reading it off the map, if you've had time to make a good one.
Once you are pretty sure of the range, the time of flight of your slug out to the mark is plain. Just look at the data.
Suppose you have a digital metronome. You can enter the time of flight and tell the gadget to click at this interval. Now listen to these clicks through an earplug while tracking the target through your scope. On one click, stop tracking and hold fast. At the next
click, note how many mils the target has moved. This is your lead.
It should work whatever the crossing angle of the target, and whatever
the target's speed. The figure is in mils, not inches, or feet, or
widths. You've got this information with slim reference to charts--
after setting the clicker all you had to do was look through your scope.

If this won't work, please tell me why not--
Leon Day
Leon Day <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 22:29:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

'yote Bate...

Sure the shot from Adobe Walls was luck... but the more you know, and the more better a shot your are, the smaller the dose of luck it takes to make you look good!

If you shoot a lot, and do it in front of others, eventually you will "Do one" and be an instant legend... for a while ;)

Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:00:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Silly Cammo:

Writing Pens - Do they have disappearing ink?
Toilet Paper - No kidding! saw some at a gun shop.
Fishing Line - In Idaho a shop has some line that is cammo'd to be different colors throughout the spool. ("Here fishy, fishy." "Hey, Bert, don't let em see ya!")
Match Sticks - Came in brown or green. Wonder if the flame is tan.

Hank <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:09:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dropping your action into the Choate is a piece of cake. You had the action off to adjust your trigger, right? Same process, just put it into the Choate, instead. Use the bolts provided with the stock, the factory bolts are too short. If you need a walk through e-mail me direct and we'll exhange phone #s.

All the Florida Roster-Rats,
I went to the range in the Ocala National Forest today. It was a nice ride on the Buell and that's about it. For pistols it wouldn't be too bad however the pistol and rifles fire on the same small range and it only goes to 100 yds. Actually, if my range estimation is any good, I'd put it at 85yds.

'lito and Bravo,
Thanks again for the help.

I've got $10 on Cory's scars!!

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:24:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Flu Master Bravo,

$730 plus your "finely aged" PWA lower and upper - I feel much better now. But I still got a bargain for an all-Pony pre-ban. I really can't complain about my box stock R6551. It shoots better than I can. The only things I have done to it were to replace the Smith comp that was on it with the Phantom flash suppressor and remove the pinned in sear block that Colt thought would be PC. Other than that, I have contemplated getting an Aimpoint XD/M but that's about it. I don't plan on turning it into a christmas tree with the latest-gotta-have-it-gizmos hanging from it.

BTW, who is Geoff and what does he build? As you can see, I am new here (but learning).

Get (sniffle, sniffle) better.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Leon Day...

Mark?... MARK??? Otay guys, I'll behave, I promise!

Movers at long range are a fantasy... see Gooch's remarks above, and multiply by 10X.

At close range at a match, you will "maybe" get one pass-by to see the mark (aka, target)... that's about 3 seconds... and then you will have to decide whether to track, or trap... pick your points, and set up for the shot... the lead will be in inches, to maybe a foot, and you will have ZERO time to fool with anything, it goes by too fast.

Maybe 10 seconds later, you will get the mark (Mr. Target)...

In real life, you may get a few seconds of the mark (I mean TARGET)... and that's it! It may be an officer going to the crapper, or a radio op crossing a clearing... and that's it... no tryout, no passby, no Nada! Moving Marks... er... moving targets, are "shakie puddin".

Pablito <>
In Mafia country, lookin' for "The Mark!", in good ol', USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:33:01 (ZULU) (your host address:


$10 on Cory's scars? You're on, dude. I'm gonna have the doc gimme some "designer" scars and even have them cammo'd, yea, that's the ticket!

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:33:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a scope question for you all which I'm reposting for any new readers. Has anyone ever had the M1 turrets put on either their Leupold 6.5-20X LRT or 4.5-14x LRT by Premier Reticles? The reason I'm asking is because I'm looking at these scopes but I don't like the target knobs I like the M1 knobs better and I know Premier Reticles does the work. I was wondering if they just put on the knobs or do they also put on a small turret around the knob like on the Mark 4's and Vari-X III M1's. Also I was reading some posts that say the mildots on these scopes is different through out the power setings. What power is it set for? The highest? also has anyone had Premier calibrate their mildots to being the same on all powers? Thanks for the help. Either drop me an e-mail or post the response so others can find out the info.
Rob <>
USA - Sunday, September 10, 2000 at 23:47:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Moe: Yeah, if you add in what I paid for the receivers, and take off the shipping, (or add sales tax to yours), we'd be the same I bet. And you're right, it's a good deal. I'll ditto your not hanging every new toy from it too. This is a 16" LIGHT carbine!

Patron 'Lito (and Bolt since you're surely knowlegable!): the next step from a "Snoopy" reel will be a Mitchell for Bubba. Already purchased it. I've got my fair share of Mitchell Garcia's (from when they were together), and the Mitchells seem to be almost as good. Garcias now, IMHO, aren't worth their weight. I actually cut partially through a bail with Stren. BAH! I can live quite comfortably with Mitchell Garcias for the rest of this life, at least for the spincast type ;-)

Kent and 'Lito: hey, don't speak too much truth, the "marks" will get cocky ;-) Really though, you're RIGHT on! Now that we've said that I got $20 on the UnDude cold at 1000 y in the zone.

Gratuitous plug for Geoff Corn: Geoff is the Navy National Match armorer, among other things, and builds the finest M-14 types I've ever seen. The "REAL M-14 PRO" on this site turned me onto him, and I've never looked back. My Geoff M-25 is sub 1/2 MOA. For fun, since AR's are NM stock now, I asked him about one. He told me that he builds a MUCH better AR than M-14. Hokay. Then, talking to him one evening, he told me he built a MUCH better bolt gun than AR. Of course, Patron Dave can tell you about Geoff's AR's also, they were at Perry. Needless to say, it's made getting that custom 260 MUCH harder to NOT do! Geoff shoots High Master, and his wife is just a step behind, with his stuff.
Mastered by Flu Bravo <>
sippin' the wifies home brews, cream soda and root beer, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 00:41:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

This is my first at the risk of stepping on my drag bag I'd like to join the party...

>>I have a scope question...


I've had the M1 turrets installed on a 4.5X14 LRT. Not sure of your question of knob vs. turret, but they are the exact same as the turrets on the M1...not the same as the M3. The Leupold Mil-Dot is calibrated at Max (14 in this case). I believe Premier can calibrate it at any power you desire but it does not change with the will only be calibrated at one power...most people stick with the max to get the best mil-dot reading. The best bet is to ask Dick Thomas from Premier via their web site or on, the Tactical or Optics board. The work they did for me was top-notch and turn around time was three days in the shop...

>>Script calls for homemade Ghillies - eerie looking burlap camoufage --plausible ???


It appears everyone has answered the M2 question for the movie but I also noticed that there was a reference to Gillie suits going to be used...did the Marines actually use Gillies in VN ? I believe Maj. Land experimented with them in Hawaii but am unsure if these were in use in VN. Any ideas ?



Jim <>
USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:05:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for the welcome and yes I guess
Mars <>
One on tap in , NY, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:19:54 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for the welcome and yes I guess "character" might be a suitable lable. Perhaps I should not have been so offended. Fact is I am certain that I have been called worse. As for Mr Bolt I am pleased with our ability to reconcile. I look for ward to perhaps meeting him some day. Perhaps I can get him to teach me somthing about fishing cause droppin a frag in the pond is startin to piss of the neighbors. HA!

I have felt very at home since having found this site and am glad to participate and even happier to do what what I did most often when I was operating on behalf of our collective favorite Uncle(Sam); look, listen, learn and take the occasional well placed shot.

Thanks for the help with the Choate stock. Yes I did have it out to adjust the trigger and am really quite happy with it thus far. I think however that I am going to go with the replacement from Brownelles. The adjustment is good but can it be better? If so then I shoud make it so.

Well thanks all for everything you put out here, good, bad or ugly I think its great.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
One on tap in , NY, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:21:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

That's too bad about the Garcia reels... I have the #308 ultra light, that's like a thumb sized jeweled watch... and a #301 (or #310), also a jeweled watch, for diner sized fishes... Damn!

Did you do the Hornady machine yet.


Pablito <>
Found the Mark, but he keeps movin' around, and I can't get a shot at him... in Mafia Country, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:28:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

I understand that a ghillie suit is "always a work in progress," but does anyone have experience with any of the high quality commercially available ghillies, such as from Custom Concealment or UCD Industries, to help me in deciding whether to purchase one of these as opposed to starting from scratch.


Gonzo <>
USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 01:45:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi guys, been awhile.

On long range - I think Gooch was being kind with 800 yard first round hits. We go to 800 meters in the course and first round hits at that range is rare enough for beer bets. And not sure beer bets. 600 meters to maybe 650. After that first round hits drop fast. A 1 mph wind will move the bullet about 7 inches at 800 meters, add in the normal group size of about 9 - 10 inches and you have exceeded the width of the target.

Movers - establish a set lead for your caliber at set ranges and go with the mils. Movers past 300 becomes very shakey because of old man wind (not you Lito). When a target is moving into the wind you must add the wind effect and with the wind subtract the wind effect. Thus a 1.25 mil lead at 300 would become a 1.75 mil lead when you have a .5 mil wind and the target is moving against the wind but would become a .75 mil lead when moving with the wind. This becomes real fun at 600 when the lead is 1.75 mils and the wind is 2 mils and the target is moving with the wind you must aim behind the leading edge by yep, BEHIND, by .25 mils. And as pointed out this must be down in seconds.

Why .308 as a sniper round, - as stated you can practice without barrel loss and shoulder loss. Even a 'puny' 300 Win Mag will do you a job after 100 rounds of practice snap target engagement in one day. Snaps are fun and are where the target must be engaged within 3 secs over a 7 meter front. Then the barrel wears out and the whole process starts over.

Well will take a big glass of shut the heck up now go to bed.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 02:17:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Deer thread; You guys are doin O.K. The .243 has to be used very carefully. I shot one twice a couple of years back with a 100 grain bullet and he just hopped off. I found him 100 yards into the timber with his heart completely destroyed and a bullet through both lungs.
Range was 100 yards. Last year I took a 6X6 large whitetail with one 180 grain .308 at 150 yards 1 shot one kill. He went 25 feet. You never know. I wouldn't shoot meat deer running if I could help it.
But it happens all the time. We get to gambling when the horns get large and the best reason I can think of for using the large calibers is a 6X6 or more Record book deer 400 yards or more across a canyon.
.260 should be enough for any Whitetail I'd think but Elk will laugh at it with a iffy hit.
Bolt; a Karacter? NAW! Whoever said you couldn't spell Bolt?

El Lito'; yep, like we always say around here. It take a lot of practice and hard work to make luck work for you.. but that's right Gooch! Some Indians just ain't lucky! I think that is the quote right on if I remember it right. If you guys haven't read Billy Dixon's book (the last adapted version in the 20's) you would really like it.
He was one of us! A real plainsman survivalist, rifleman and Sniper all rolled into one. I've personally retraced his steps though his old haunts here on the Texas and Western plains. Much more than just a Buffalo hunter who made a good shot!
Ghillie's in Nam; Let me try. Some may want to correct parts of this but in Nam there was much natural cover as a rule. The VC used it and the Americans used it to an extent also. The heat was terrible in the hundreds even at night in the lowlands. The Natural cover was more welcome than any added garment. The tall grass was a preferred hide in a lot of cases as it offered immediate retreat where needed and was cooler with the shade if offered. Ghillie's weren't unheard of but were just a bit too hot to be popular.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 02:39:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

What is the ideal size round for learning to shoot a rifle with high accuracy, with the ambition of being as capable or eligible for a sniper position with the military?

Also, could you recommend a rifle for around 1500$ Canadian as per the above requirements?

Thanks very much.
A. Lloyd <>
Canada - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 03:14:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

A. Lloyd...
Why, a .308 Winchester (aka 7.62 Nato!), of course!
It has everything you want except h**ters...

'yote bate...

A hundred yards... man you're using too small a weapon.
Last year, mine was lifted up 20 feet clear in the air, and hit the ground with "x" in it's eyes... no whimpy .243 though... I used a 87 Caravan, at 80 feet per second!!

But the guys in the other lane, made deer-burger out of him!

'lito ;)
Pablito <>
Welding spikes on the Caravan, cuz deer season's comin' in good ol', USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 03:29:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Movers - Wow! Did I screw that up tonight, Against the wind add the wind effect in mils with the wind subtract the wind effect! Can not believe I did that since that is what the class has been doing for the last week and a half.

Sorry guys must be old timers disease setting in.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 03:44:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: that's a hoot. You figure out the grains in a minivan? Hey, what's the Taylor factor? As for Garcias, at one point (when they were joined with Mitchell) that's all I would want. My Dad has some Garcias from the same vintage that you're talking, and they're GREAT. I didn't get to take any with me when I left home though..... In the typical "minimalist Bravo" experience, I only keep a M-G spincast and a (GASP!) Martin fly reel (with duplicate redundancy in reserve). I can hear Bolt gagging from here. I just wanted one like my Grandpop had, and (ahem) it's still better than I am.
Didn't do the Hornady tonight, I forgot I still needed to trim the 5.56's (after that 5 hour nap). Which actually brings me to why I'm here tonight. I HATE trimming! Anyone got any good or bad things to say about the three I've narrowed it down to: the RCBS power trimmer, the Gracey, and the Dillon? I've gotten to where I hate even looking at my Forster. A trimmer will be the next reloading gear purchase I make. BAH!
Bravo <>
time for bed AGAIN!, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 04:07:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello ladies!!

Hey, I'll get back to you on the DM questions guys, sometimes I have to check in with the chiefs before I run my mouth, eh!!!

Dave with the 30-378wby vs. .308 win:

Anything round with wby in its nomenclature is considered a barrel burner. It's the nature of the round. Ol' Roy loved to outdo the mags already on the market, ASAP, and to do that he had to pack a lot o' powder in a big ol' long case, necessitating a long action receiver. You do realize the 30-378 holds more powder than a 300 RUM? Because of that powder capacity, in order for a 30-378wby to be relatively effective you need AT LEAST a 28" barrel, which would not be considered sniper-friendly in the bush. Most of the .308's in the field are a short action with 24" barrels. They are built to be relatively quick and light, not clumsy. Swing a 28" barreled long action around all day and compare. Also, a .308's recoil is less than that of a 30-06, and much much less than a 30-378. A sniper has to keep in touch with his inner child, at least 100 rds a day, and the 30-378 would definitely bring in the social services, cause that kid wouldn't wanna come out and play any more. Plus you'd have to rebarrel every week or so. They love to smoke the barrels. and LOUD!! the muzzle blast, especially since you'd need a muzzle brake to keep ya from wincin', wouldn't be that hard to spot. I know, I've seen the fireballs downstairs!!
The 30-378wby is a great benchrest round, hell, us barrelmakers love 'em, keeps us in business, but as far as being put into use as an all-round sniper cartridge, it'll get thumbs down, every time. They are accurate, push them 220's where ya want 'em.


JR <>
burnttothegroundin, sd, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 04:54:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank you for comments on the trigger guards and rings. I quess I will take the HS det.mag and Max-50 rings. I like det mags and as someone stated Max-50 rings cost only a 11 USD extra compared to regular Badger rings. They do bring weigth to the rifle but not too much.

To Undude: 338 Lapua Brass from Lapua has had its rim specs changed. In the beginning it had a a rim like Norma, but IT WAS NOT ACCORDING TO THE SPECS. Later on they changed the rim to the official specification that is used by C.I.P. I guess the first version had the same specs than .416 Rigby and the latter one is a proper 338 LM rim. Unfortunately most shell holder manufacturers still believe .416 Rigby and 338 Lapua have the same rim specs. The specs ARE different.

The use of 45-70 RCBS shell holder is news to me, have to try it. Another way was to take 416 Rigby shell holder and enlarge it with a Dremel tool a little.

Got to go.

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 06:56:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Im looking for a range in the east seattle wa area over 500 Im having a bit of time trying to find I any one knows let me know

dave <>
bellevue, wa, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 07:07:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

FYI---ISRAELI NATIONAL SNIPING COMPITITION - Friday----Mike Columbus -1st place..

Gooch--Pablito ------Thanks for comments.

Talking about a MAX M2 1000 Yard shot. Am trying to add a line in the script that the shooter insists he sights in to the specific proposed range.
And ---given that theY have all nite and the hide is max 100yds IN--he and his no. two hump it in pieces. If they do it that way and don't cut it in the cutting room it would be true and seen to be true---who knows its only a MOVIE......ONE ROUND ONE _ _ _ _ ............MIKE
Michael R. Columbus <>
Israel - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 08:00:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just finished accumulating the necessary come-up data for my new light rifle. I have found something interestin;

For a 175 SMK @2650 fps the turret for 30-06 on my M3LR is pretty much right on. I know that there will be some tweeking but what's neat is that I won't have to carry a come-up sheet, the numbers are on the dial.

Does Harris make a swivel bipod with the notched detents on the legs instead of the friction wheels???? If so what's the P/N??

Twelve days on the wake-up. Hoooyaaahhh!
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 09:32:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick B...

> "Movers - Wow! Did I screw that up tonight..."

What you said the first time, made perfect sense to me... is that a bad sign, or what?

> "Sorry guys must be old timers disease setting in."
Is it catching? I think I've got it! You make sense to me!

And of course, to mess it all up, real movers (aka "Bad Guys"), rarely cross you at 90 degrees... they quarter and third you...

So... in 4 or 5 seconds... take the speed of the target, plus or minus the wind (account for old timers disease), and take the co-sine of the quartering angle, and multiply by... Aw shit... call in a T.O.W...

'lito (I think)
Pablito <>
In a totally confused state of mind, in good ol', USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 09:40:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

It's more on, than you know... I sent you new skinny based on your note, and you will be right on.

The '06/yards connection on the M3 series has been mentioned here before... it's good to go!

Pablito <>
Why are we up, talkin' this stuff, at this hour in the morning??? in , USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 09:44:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

A.Loyd: "What is the ideal size round for learning to shoot a rifle with high accuracy, with the ambition of being as capable or eligible for a sniper position with the military?"

.22 rimfire then .223 then .308. Get COMPETENT instruction from day one, dry fire a few hundred thousand times and press the trigger like your life depends on it EVERY TIME. Practice DOES NOT make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 11:20:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

I purchased the ghillie in Cabela's. I still haven't gotten it perfect, it's a Chewbakka type. I liked the idea of using a "web netting" over-jacket and tying in the 'flage. The burlap needs to have the crosshairs removed, and they put in some standard cami (BDU) material. They over-did the amount of material but it's easily rectified with a pair of scissors. It rolls up into a nice, small bundle with it's own carry strap. I'll let you know how it comes out once I get to it.

All Florida Roster-Rats,
I have been e-mailed about a 200yd range run by the State in Lake City. I would imagine (I still hafta check) that it's in the Osceola Forest.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 11:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just wanted to amuse you guys a minute. Check out this site and look at what Garands go for up north: check under "rifles".
Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 13:27:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

has anyone here ever used a "nikko stirling" scope?

are they any good, comments?
Sean <>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:21:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin M.
Ref: Harris bipods

Kevin, Harris does indeed make the bipod you spoke of! I have one but will have to look and see what part # is on it or if it even has one. They are one of the ones that start out with a BR prefix. Hang on and if you don't get an answer sooner I will lookie-peekie and e-mail you after I get in this PM.

Vern <>
Not Quite So Hot Houston, TX, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch and anyone else interested,
Earlier you mentioned the availability of the Army FM 23-10 manual. Well, has it for download. Just thought youz guys might want to know.
Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:40:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
I spoke with Mike Lau as well and guess what? My TBAM40A1 is done! I'll have to say, after much ballyhoo that it appears that Mike did have the rifle ready end of August. I got an invoice from him last Friday dated Sept 1. So, while Mike is near impossible to contact, he did have the rifle ready in nine months and he did have it ready end of August. Range report to follow. Anyone interested in a 700P with Rem authorized gunsmith trigger job that shoots .3's with handloads?
breakpoint <>
USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:43:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Paz"Who is Mike Miller" That would depend on who you ask. I like to think of myself as a guy who found a better way to solve the problem of hitting at distance, without building a fixed shooting position, or weaving yourself into a Military Leather sling.

Some points on slings:

Two types of slings are out there. One is a shooting sling and the other is a carry sling. Mine does both well.

My sling is quick and you can hit moa with it. You can not hit moa with a Ching sling. I can go from standing to seated 200 yard headshots in less than five seconds and not miss even once.

You can carry my rifle, while climbing, over a full pack or just your back. I dont beleave you can do this with a Ching Sling.

Leather is not a good material for a tactical sling. It molds, stretches and is heavy (compared to nylon)

A sling is designed to be tight and lock the weapon into you. Friction is not good enough for precision shooting. You have to have a push pull effect to make it work.

What I did is take a cuff type sling and modify it for field use.

Heikki, Thank you for the info on the 338 Lapua. I truly love the round and the HS Precision rifle is shooting 1/2 moa with handloads. I have only loaded a couple of hundred rounds with the 45/70 shell holder.

Rick Boucher, good to see you back here. I agree with the 800 yard max you and the Gooch Master spoke of. Especially when you factor in NO range flags unknown distance and no sighters/ REAL WORLD.

I have been messing around with different calibers for a few years now and what I believe is that for all around use the 308 Winchester is the way to go. Most guys dont shoot the bigger calibers as well as the 308 and the smaller calibers suck. This is not a game of High Power Shooting.

On 50 versus 44 MM Objective. I do not like to use anything over 44mm if I do not have to. I have a 58mm objective on my 338 Lapua, but that is a 17 power and I am shooting past 1000 yards with it. I do not worry about someone spotting that large piece of glass on a stalk. Actually next time I stalk against Rick and Gooch I think I will use a 20mm objective, 2' sunshade and bury myself in the dirt. They didn't get me with my lense last time but that probably because they were too busy spotting everyone elses.

Undue/Mike Miller
Mike Miller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 15:56:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can someone hook me up w/ a link or two.
I'm looking for a company to refinish a couple of Steyr SSG69 PI stocks for me. I was thinking of getting with Robar and seeing if they will do the non-slip package on them and then do one in woodland and the other in arctic camouflage. Are there other companies out there doing this type of work?
I also need to buy a couple of magazines for my rifle. Does anyone know of a place I can check on to get the best price? I've been in touch with GSI, they want $45.00 per copy.
Thanks in advance,
Don <>
Florissant, Colorado, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 16:22:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am sorry to disappoint you but I have not had any problems with metal detectors. I am partially bionic myself, two plates in my arm and a 17" rod in my leg. One time with a hand wand there was a slight beep but nothing worthwhile. Before surgery my doctor said that he didn't think the detectors would pick up the steel. Mike (Undude) may have different experiences.

Wilson rifles,
I had the oppurtunity to examine a Wilson AR at a gun show last month. It had a decent trigger and a tough finish on the receiver, but that was it. For $2000, it better shoot itself. It was well made but not worth the asking price. I see too many guns from well known AR shops for half that price to justify what I think is a name. I have maintained a strong loyalty to Les Baer 1911's but it really hurt my opinion of him when I found out he was doing the same thing.

Gunny Hathcock's shot,
The way I remember the book is that he had fired sighter shots that morning at the exact location where the kill was made. When he spoke about it on Plaster's Ultimate Sniper video, I got the feeling it was a luck shot.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 17:28:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE; Upcoming deer season,
Remember, Zone V-8 regulations are forked horn or better.
John <>
Black Hole of, Calcuttafornia, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 19:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Silliest camo'ed things:

My vote has to go for the flashlights, especially the mini-Maglight size. Either it is dark and the light is on, making it useless, or it is dark and the light is off, meaning that once you drop it, you have to search for it with your (much dimmer) backup light. Even during the daytime, if a small one gets dropped, it can be real tough to find in the typical leaf litter. I'll take mine in black.

That's it for stuff that is actually supposed to be used. Not for field use are the different pieces of furniture upholstered in camo patterns. Even sillier are the camoflauge diapers, undoubtedly for parents living in Arkansas or similar country. ;-)
Karl <>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 20:31:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

YUUUK! back in the slave house today!
Lito' please send math on 84 CJ-7 w/deer moving 35mph. No need to include windage. Hey, a kill is a kill! Down here we carry skinnin knives in our glove box.
Been shootin doves all week The math I have to do is killlllin me! Need a dove master!(Just kiddin- the force guides me Beretta!)
Will somebody come hold my ole .41mag on me while I order a $2000 dollar Wilson AR? I couldn't do it otherwise! Gimmeabreak!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 20:56:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well guys, the CAR type just came home. Seems some of the "excesses" ran the cost up a little, so Moe, I'm within $50 of you anyway. What ran the cost up? How about a Kreiger-Milazzo trigger, Armalite 1/2 MOA NM sights and the Douglass XX barrel (custom turned, of course!). SWEET!!! This thing has the lightest let off of any service rifle I've ever felt. Geoff is a REALLY great guy, and I'll recommend him anytime. Gonna go burn some 69 SMK's through it off a bipod, just to see what it'll do. No, I'm not carrying a CAR with a bipod. HA! The bathroom scales (not-that-accurate) put it at the same weight as a stock synthetic mini-14, about 6 pounds dry. We went with the Kreiger trigger because it's supposed to be just as reliable as a US GI trigger in NASTY conditions (blowing fine sand of New Mexico and Utah). Man, I'm STOKED! It's not near as purty as the '25, Geoff calls it the "ugly little gun", but I bet it'll do it's intended purpose quite well. The Phantom flash hider looks a little different in person than in the ads, I'm not sure what to make of it. Not used to a flash hider that doesn't have closed slots for the down position. Anyway, this first batch of 69's that I loaded are with AA2015, AA2230, and W748. BTW, I've got a full pound of W680 in the stash, must have bought it long ago. Anyone know why?

Loading tip for the day: Hornady one-shot. It's great. Bye bye Lee paste case lube!
Working over the flu Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 21:00:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question for all you long range shooters: What would be an ideal range?

We have a small gun club in the high desert just outside of Albuquerque, New Mexico. It appears that we might be able to get funding for a new, large, state-of-the-art range complex. If this comes to pass we hope to have the new range complex up and running with 18 months.

Let me tell you our initial ideas on two of the ranges for the complex.

Then I would appreciate hearing from you on how this compares with your concept of an ideal range. Also where is the best range you have shot at located? What was it that impressed you about that range?

We will meld any ideas received into our planning.

1000-Yard Range: This range will have 20 positions with the targets controlled from a pit. At 1000-yards from the targets will be a set of 20 benchrests, with shooting pads for prone shooting next to each. At 800-yards and 900-yards from the targets will be a row of 20 shooting pads. This way we can have 1000-yard benchrest matches, straight 1000-yard prone matches and Palma matches.

600-Yard Range: This will be a dual-purpose range. There will be 20 targets controlled from a pit at 600-yards for normal prone shooting from shooting pads. There will be no benchrests on this range. We will also use the range for unknown distance shooting. Life-size animal targets will be placed at various distances unknown to the shooter. These targets will be relocated daily at the whim of the range master. This will give hunters a chance to see what they can do in a more realistic environment using their normal hunting equipment. Those who like to brag that they can routinely hit the kill zone of a deer somewhere around 400-yards away will see how valid their claims are.

Davey in NM
Davey in NM <>
Albuquerque, NM, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 21:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

>>A.Loyd: "What is the ideal size round for learning to shoot a rifle >>with high accuracy, with the ambition of being as capable or >>eligible for a sniper position with the military?"

>.22 rimfire then .223 then .308. Get COMPETENT instruction from day >one, dry fire a few hundred thousand times and press the trigger >like your life depends on it EVERY TIME. Practice DOES NOT make >perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Why do you suggest the .22 and the .223 before the .308? I'm not doubting your advice, I'd just like to know the reasoning behind it.

ALloyd <>
Canada - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:10:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Drag Bags:

I borrowed a drag bag last week @ storm. Forgot to check the manufacturer - but I like the way it was arranged. It had a sort of pocket area for the muzzle with tiedowns along the way for the rest of the rifle. Now these could be better as velcrow or snap ties.

The main body for the rifle was a good zipper which I liked alot. It had 2 large pouches on the outside for your gear - which also had very high grade zippers on them.

This dragbag had the shoulder straps so that you can carry this rig on your back on a long hump. Folks - that's the trick to carrying a heavy rifle, etc. We were required to carry spotting scope, data book, etc and 250 rounds of ammo - per man. Yes this all fit in that drag bag - with the .308towed in the rifle side. But - again - being able to carry all this on my back made it doable.

Now - what kind of drag bag did I describe? I don't know. What I do know is I need some good recommendations and sources for dragbags... I need to get one before the rondevous. I have become a dragbag dude....

thanks in advance -

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:24:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

A.Loyd: "Why do you suggest the .22 and the .223 before the .308? I'm not doubting your advice, I'd just like to know the reasoning behind it."

You should doubt the hell out of me. You don't know me from Adam. But (quick and dirty) here's why I suggest that sequence: To shoot you have to do a bunch of things simultaneously. You have to develop muscle memory for lots of different things and you have to develop a lot of conditioned responses. These need to be built up in a sequence. This takes time. I've heard that it's 3000 repetitions per response, but you hear lots of stuff. You can do a bunch of that with a .22. Just as importantly you need to avoid developing any conditioned responses to the noise and recoil of the gun. You remember Pavlov; ring the bell, feed the dog. After a while you ring the bell and the dog salivates. Its the same with shooting. Press the trigger, hear nasty noise, get bumped on shoulder, flinch. A little of that and its: press the trigger and flinch. Ask the honest ones here if they have ever fuzzed out when they dropped the pin on a dud. (Not me of course!!) So, WITH THE PROPER INSTRUCTION and PERFECT PRACTICE, you develop correct positions and trigger control with a .22, but you don't develop a flinch.

A .223 weighs, hefts and acts like a real rifle. With it you dope wind and judge range and learn to get hits at distance. Its cheap to shoot and (no small thing) ITS FUN! But you are still reinforcing your good techniques and not developing any bad conditioned responses.
Now you move to a real rifle.

We're about to have a bunch of very knowledgable shooters disagree with me up and down the road. Let the games begin.

CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:48:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken: this is gonna sound stupid, but did you use the drag bag as a drag bag, or as a range bag? The reason I'm wondering is because I would LIKE a drag bag for protection of dirt in the M-25 (changing zeros and degredation of accuracy) but I was told I'd be laughed off the course if I actually used a drag bag like it was intended. As it was, I just "babied" the '25, like I would have anyway, and no harm came. One of the bags I saw AND liked was carried by Michael out there (it was yours wasn't it Michael?). Dunno who made it though, memory isn't that good.

Just got off the phone with Geoff, and guess who was chosen to build the target rifle for a soon to be retired AMU high ranker? I'm telling you guys, if you want a Chandler, McMillan, Robar rifle, but at a fraction of the cost, get ahold of this guy! He's worth his weight in Bravo Brew!

Got this new CAR, and no new name to go with it. Youse guys know me, any suggestions?
Bravo <>
Gonna take sudafed and plink with the CAR!, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 22:54:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Brother CDC: you mean I could have not flinched with a M-16A2 right off if I hadn't moved from a 22 to a 30-06? HA! If the flames come, we share them. You're right on as far as I can tell, you explained how I will help my son learn (along with LOTS of better instruction). As for now though, he's demonstrated that he's still young for a 9 ;-)
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 23:05:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
CDC, I do not disagree with you. I think a natural progression with calibers is the way to do it. I went from 22lr to 30-06 and thought for a few years the 30-06 had alot of recoil. Eventually I killed all nerves in my shoulder and now I shoot everything 22-50BMG, and like it.LOL

I try and start guys off with 22lr. They have to follow through or they miss. It is a slow little bullet. Then to 223's and then 308's. That is when I have time. Now if they are grown men and want to do the sniper thing. I do not waist time with 223. They go straight to 308 and recoil will go away after a few thousand rounds of shooting. Learn to read the wind for the round you plan on using and forget it for other rounds. It is hard enough to learn the wind and range estimation for one round let alone several. If you notice all the talk about is always how fast the wind is going. Guys have huge trouble with this. Me I just look at things and make corrections based on how the same conditions moved my bullets in the past. In short I estimate it and make corrections based on the last time I estimated the same wind with the same round, under the same conditions. If I say to myself that it looks like 7-10mph and it is only 6-8mph, it wont matter if I use the same settings as the last time I screwed up how fast the wind was going. Now you cant do this if you change bullets every day, or shoot once a month.

Now many of you use wind readers of one type or another, but my experience with them is the same as Lasers, they only work when you dont need them. Learn something that does not require batteries.

Fear the man that has only one rifle and knows how to use it.

Bravo, my friend, a Match Trigger in a combat weapon? Trouble follows all that play with target things in the field. It is a fine trigger and so are the Smith sites but you would be better off, IMHO, with standard AR trigger and A2 sites. Match parts belong at Camp Perry. With that said the 748 powder has worked very well for me with 69 grain bullets. In my Service Match Rifle. Your rifle may end up being neither fish nor fowl. Although it sounds as one fine machine, I have doubts about living with it under field conditions. Blood, sweat, dirt and other things have a way of jamming up finely fitted parts.

Bravo, I have seven ARs. What did you see me with in the field? It was a stock M4 Carbine. I leave the fancy semi auto stuff at home or take them to the matches. A shoty AR is designed for rough and tumble work. Chrome lined bbl, sloppy chamber, quick and easy sites. Think of it as Rock Tuff. That is what holds up the best. I know this is a sniper site and we all love precision, but combat has many different gears, sniper rifles have to hit at long distances. AR's fall into the ultra dependable and hit quickly with at moderate ranges catagory. Now a few of the smiths out there are capable of doing a great deal to the little rifle and having it still work, but all the ones I have had worked on failed in the rock catagory, so stock it is. That is unless Bill Wlyde tells me he can do it. He is the best AR Man on the planet!
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 00:07:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo - I agree with CDC at with starting small in caliber. Started my daughter with an RWS competition air rifle. The rifle pellet will stop upon impact with anything and back yard (garage in my case) shooting is possible anytime with supervision. No range is required and you can cultivate the desire without the hassel and getting ready for the range. You also detect minor errors in anticipation that will be missed even witht he minor recoil of the 22. Then move to the .22. At 50 yards the same target is used as with the air rifle and you can play three or four position the same way. Then you can do the 50 and 100 yard matches in prone only iron sights and scope. NOW they are hooked. The 50 and 100 yard matches gives them the first feel of wind calls and wind effect, from there to .223 comp is a breeze. Daughter wound up Captain of the UNC-W rifle team when they were not so politically correct.

A.Loyd - The same goes for your quest. Start small and do everything with a purpose and exactly right the same way everytime. Practice until you puke, then shoot another box of 22.

Bravo - We discourage drag bags because guys actually drag the dam things while moving and thus bang them against bushes that wave like flags. Using the scope cover and muzzle cover a la Undude Mike and you will have a good combo. Unless you use one of those "fragile" M21/25 thingies. Then wrap it in Kotex and pray to the gun god for salvation. :-) Actually your thoughts on using the drag bag is right, use it to protect those moving parts but carry it don't drag it on a strap. Bad form what.

Ken - Not the foggiest on the drag bag, several companies make some very good rifle bags as you discribed. Eagle and Blackhawk make some real nice ones that unfold into shooting mats. These are real good for the LEA that will be stuck on the cold or hot concrete or tar roof.

Mike - If that muzzel break had not have thrown that bush 50 feet I probaby would have missed you. ;-)

Have guys and play nice!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 00:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damm, spent more time on here today than the last month.

Rick, it was a small bush and the roots were not very deep. You going up to Storm for the shoot? I have to send a few slings I promised Rod a month ago for prizes for the shoot. I will do so tomorrow. I cant go this year but plan on next years event. I will probably drag, Mike Sheehan, Stan/Bravo and a few other with me. I will be shooting a rifle with no brake on it, from a hole in the ground, with decoys, and I will probably gas you this time to tear up those eagle eyes.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 00:25:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

MikeM: Fear the man with one rifle? I tell you what, if I thought that you were going to take a shot at me, I'd be well past scared. And you have a whole truckload of rifles.

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 00:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: drag bag usage....

I think I was using it as intended... it was strapped onto my back when moving across the open and anywhere else where possible. I can bear alot of weight if it is strapped onto my back. From there where the brush gets thick - I go to hand carry. When on my knees or belly style - the drag bag slides along beside or behind me.
I used one for the first time @ storm - and have become a converted 'drag bagger'. Now - I say that - until someone shows/teaches me yet a better way to do things.

If your rifle's zero is disturbed by an occaisional bump or two... you should reconsider using it as a field rifle... As much as I try to baby this 20 LB hunk of rifle that I have ... you just can't avoid all of the bumps...

Good Luck out there....

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <>
Looking for Dragbags, Before End of Sept, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 01:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Reloading.. old topic, I took a week off. Thought I'd discuss my rig because it is very unique and has solved the gripes typically encountered. Precision ammo, as in better than factory match, is easily and quickly loaded with a progressive press. Mine is painted blue and I like it. Two things are important.. 1) I use Redding comp neck dies, and shoot only bolt guns so am not needing FL sizing. These dies can be tinkered with until your RUNOUT is determined by your brass, not the press or dies. 2) WEIGHED CHARGES: mount a 'Prometheus Powder System'over your press, it weighs charges FASTER than you can work the press. It is also more accurate than a "reloading" scale. A comment about balance beam vs. electronic scales. I've tested a few and compared them against a lab quality scale. I'll take a reloading beam scale rather than a reloading electronic scale any day. Even then you may be surprised at the true repeatability of your weighed charges. Unless you want to weigh cases, then the electronic is nice. Either way, don't skimp on this peice of equipment if you're serious.
brandx <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 01:18:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
I recently bought a Remington 700 PSS DM in .308, w/harris 9/13 series S bipod, leupold quick detach scope base and rings. I also have a tasco 8-32x50mm world series plus target scope. What i want to know now is, whats next. I want to know what i should do next to juice her up even more, and suggestions would be welcomed. Either cosmetic, or internal, thnx!

Brandon <>
Felton, De, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 01:21:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC...I tend to agree with you too. I'm starting my sons off with an air gun just to develope good habits. My oldest has started with a heavy barrel 10/22 w/ bipod and scope and is doing well. He is BEGGING me to go on to the AR as soon as possible. And that is really how I started...shooting a .22 target rifle when I was on rifle team in NJROTC in High School. (okay, I just gave away my age...rifle team in high school, imagine that now!).

Chuck, Moe, ONLY TEN BUCKS on my scars? damn. I'm slightly offended. (LOL) Tell ya what I'm gonna do...I'm gonna have 'em STAPLE my incision shut with NO pain meds, YEAH...that's the ticket! and spell out ".300 Win Mag" in staples! Yeah, and then the aliens came, see, and we all gotta ride in their spaceship to McDonalds, yeah, thats the ticket!

Chuck, sounds like the range at Ocala N.F. is a dud. What's the scuttlebutt on the 200 yard range? Just come here next time. Our club range goes to 300 with steel targets at all ranges. Unless we're gonna shoot with Moe, then we can go his way and maybe shoot at the range in Pt. Malabar. Plus we can go to the indoor range and pull out some of the full auto stuff. Again, all shooters are welcome to come too. the more, the merrier.

Shooter, Damn, I wanted to set off the courthouse metal detector. I was thinking that posting notes on my knee with refridgerator magnets would be kinda cool too!

Bravo: Got ALL of the paint off of the M-3. Looks good. But I do need to get some freon. BTW I'm gonna e-mail you.

Anybody have any comments on putting teflon back on the M-3 LR to match the rest of the rifle? Nah, never mind, dumb thought...but it went away.

Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 01:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dear Bravo,
I named my CAR, M-4 "Destiny". Yes it is feminine. Then again I know a few women that can be... well, you know.
Mods, I cut a 12'piece of silent sling. Attached it to the front sight and Wala! Instant patrol sling. It hangs at patrolling height. Perfect when your hands are full of everything else, maps, commo, fallen buddies, snakes, etc. Cost, nada.
Out here.
BBwolf <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 01:41:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
Looks like I,m heading up to the farm on saturday. It's 40min north 295's exit 11 on US1. You gotta bring your own targets if you want to go. Just a big empty field if the cows aren't out(gotta check on that).

'Lito 89 octane gets expensive when you start loading your hunting rounds.

later--- Eric
D5 <>
Jacksonville, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 02:10:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken: my rifle has never changed zero once it got "broke in" well. I just don't want to tempt the rifle gods and cake up the op rod channel in the stock with gravel or the like ;-) Seriously, if you want an objective opinion, ask Mike. I used the stock as a cannoe paddle at one point because the ground was too loose and steep to belly crawl up. Didn't think of using the bag as you described. You give me great food for thought! Thanks!

UnDude, you bet I'll head out there next year. Would have this year if the rains hadn't taken my cash. The only thing I've not figured is if I'm flying or driving. The difference in cost is negligible, but if I fly, I don't pack the brew. You wouldn't have any intention of using ME as one of those "decoys" would you? HA! On the CAR, I gave Geoff my "intended purpose", and it may very well be that it messes up. I EXPECT you to make me mess it up if it can be messed up. Better to learn with you (your I told you so and all) than to have it fail when I NEED it! Specifically, I warned of "New Mexico and Utah blowing fine sand", and "tactical mud baths". I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, and thought of an A1 upper actually. But the A2 is issue, so I thought I wouldn't think above my paygrade.

Master Rick: I'll think on CARRYING a drag bag, never draging it. I sincerely doubt a scope cover and muzzle mitt would do me, but I'll NEVER allow Kotex to enter the picture. She's a real sweetie, and at this point, I'm not sure I could do better! What's wrong with 25's?

BBWolf: I like the name, for a sling, I'm gonna use a Mike Miller original. What else?
Bravo <>
where reno and the clit-tons will live in nice jail cells, hopefully,, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 02:22:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, I have some how lost my link to the long range shooting game, just when I was ready to send off for the CD....can someone please send me the web address....
Frank <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 04:02:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo, since you're a Brew Miester why not call it "Bravo Lite".


Jim <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 04:03:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank you, all of you, for the suggestions and welcoming advice.

I appreciate your experience and I think you have good reasoning behind your advice.

I have a financial restriction however, which complicates the whole thing. I can only afford to buy one Rifle for the next 5 years of shooting -- could be more.

Therefore, as a compromise between the .22 and the .308 I'm guessing I should learn on the .223, and just do some solid dry-firing to develop technique before shooting live.

Is this sound logic?

Also, can I dry fire in my basement? The first rule of owning a rifle is "assume it's always loaded".. so this would kind of fly in the face of that. On the other hand, it's also a situation where you KNOW for sure the thing ISN'T loaded....

Your advice again appreciated.

ALloyd <>
Canada - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 04:04:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Positive PSS Sitrep:

Greetings. Some of you may recall my messages from a couple of weeks ago, in which I reported some difficulty in fathoming the trigger adjustment on my new Rem 700 PSS in 7.62mm. Thanks to you folks, I was able to adjust the trigger to my liking, a crisp and safe 2.5 lbs.

Anyhow, finally got a chance to shoot the rifle yesterday. After zeroing and playing around with it some, when I got serious I was able to shoot two 5-round and three 3-round groups of 168 gr. Gold Medal into consistent 7/16" center-to-center groups at 100 yards (couldn't go any further at this range). The 20th round was the first shot, a sighter after shifting over from PMC 168 gr. fodder. I cleaned the bore between groups and allowed 60 seconds between shots. There was about a 3 mph crosswind, not that this matters much at 100 yds. These were benchrested groups using a standard Harris bipod and Leupold LR M1 glass.

My I4895 / G.I. brass / 168 gr. Match King handload and the PMC stuff shot about 1.25 MOA.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share my success story and satisfaction in light of all this talk about out-of-spec chambers on some of the new PSS rifles. Mine seems groovy.

Paniolo <>
Honolulu, Hawaii, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 04:21:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

ALloyd: dry firing is the manna of the highpower competitor (at least it was for the group I hung around with), if I didn't slap a firing pin on nothing for a little while each week, I'd feel odd. Maybe that's the basis of this flu... HA! Brother CDC mentioned that it takes MANY reps to burn something into your system, I recall hearing 10K times, but I may be wrong. LOTS can be accomplished this way. My set up is such: take a few matte black pasters. Punch holes in them with a common office hole punch. Save the black dots. Take 2 3X5 cards, and tape them together legth wise for a 3"X10" card. Use the dunn IDPA type pasters and the black dots to give yourself 10 standard targets. Why 10? You'll understand when you look down the line and have to start thinking "three from the end" over and over. I don't put the red in the center, but this is obviously an option (your sight picture may vary). Note, this does squat with a scope in the basement, but excels for iron sights, where the distance of my hall looks virtually identical to the sight picture you get on a standard course of fire. Pumpkin on a post. I'd be REALLY interested if someone has a way of doing this with a scope. For that, I just keep the drapes mostly pulled, and use a distant street light. Hey, it beats 'Lito shooting at the neighbors cats! ;-)
Bravo <>
thinking about working tomorrow, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 04:26:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am contemplating a purchase of either the Sig STR-970-308(or SHR-970-308)or the Steyr Prohunter SS in .308. The cost of these rifles are comparable. ( $499.00 for the SHR, $899.00 for the STR, and $809.00 for the Steyr.) Any comments or reccomendations would be helpful.
Wayne M. Davies <>
Bakersfield, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 05:11:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi all!

Can anyone give me a source for the Silva Ranger 15 compasses marked with 6400 Mils rather than degrees?

I have been searching the net but can't find the millitary model.

I am no longer in a position where I can just sign one out of the Q-store whenever I want, so now have to buy my own.

Heaps of places list the 360 degrees ones but I really want the 6400 Mils one with the magnetic variation adjustment.

Preferably someone who can accept email orders and is able to export to New Zealand.



Sniff <>
Auckland, New Zealand - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 05:19:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

The address for the long range shhoting program is, and having received my copy recently I can assure you that you will be more than pleased with it.

Gonzo <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 06:41:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tough crowd...Bravo-Lite...I though it was funny...

I was wondering what height bi-pod you guys have found most benificial. I have a Harris L model swivel which goes 9 to 13 inches... I was hoping to find one that would work prone as well as from the sitting position...there is another model one step up from there which I think goes up to 25" or 27"...on it's lowest setting it would be unusable prone. Does anyone make a bi-pod that will work from the prone and sitting positions ? Or possibly not use one at all ?


Jim <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 07:13:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just a side...If you're a hunter and you're looking for a new flashlight...Check out Streamlight's "Stylus" with either 2 or 3 AAAA batteries. Neat little light, truly about the size and thickness of a pen, waterproof, intermittent or continuous switch, visible from over a mile away and they are RUGGED (no light bulb, instead they use a high intensity solid state LED with an estinmated life of 100,000 hours), and they won't mess with your night vision. The beam they throw is hard to describe, bright enough to make your way down the trail in the dark but don't look directly at the LED, it seems very bright when viewed directly. These little lights only weigh 2 or 3 ounces and the LEDs come in green, red, blue or white. Batteries last about 10 hours of continuous use. Equipped with a pocket clip and individually serial numbered. Sorry to sound like an advertisement but these little lights are truly impressive. If you want these for tactical use - spray paint them (they come in silver or gold colored housings). I'm normally pretty skeptical about these kinds of products but these things are the cat's pajamas. I hate carrying extra weight when I'm out hunting in eastern Oregon or in the rainy coast range of Oregon (start out in the dark, return in the dark). I paid about eleven dollars for mine. Such a deal. OK, now you guys can yell at me for not having anything to say about shooting or guns this posting. I'll still say thanks for all I've learned from you guys.

Gerry <>
Newberg , Oregon, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 07:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim, Harris makes three bipod ranges, 9-13, 13-23 and 13-27 all three in fixed or rotating (S-series).
Gerry <>
Newberg , OR, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 07:27:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
There is another Harris, that is 6" to 9", and that is the "SBR"... and it's THE ONE to use for prone field shooting...
I had the 9"to 13" one, and got rid of it, it's still too high.

On your M700PSS..."I want to know what I should do next to juice her up even more, and suggestions would be welcomed. Either cosmetic, or internal"

I would suggest four cases of Federal "GM" match... it will do wonders for the gun, internally, and as for the cosmetics, it's make you look real cool at the range by the time you've gone through the third case.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 11:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

A Loyd: The seriousness of a student can be judged by whether or not he is willing to begin at the beginning. For a shooter, the beginning is an air rifle or rimfire.

Step 1: Put 5,000 rounds through an accurate .22.

I'll assert that, its the most direct, and quickest, route to becoming a good shot. It may be the ONLY route.

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 12:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

All: I will chime in on the bipod search as well. I have a swivel bipod - which I think is great... however, my teamie had one that not only swivelled - but also had detents cut in the legs... Now that is the ticket... I abso-f****g-lutely hate those little thumb wheels for setting leg height on those... they're a pain in the butt when trying to get some quick elevation... unless of course you're gonna pull the legs all the way out.

Anyone have the part number or a good supplier of this neat detent - legged - swivel harris bipod?


ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 12:42:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know where I can get a McMillan M40A1 stock in the same shape but with a adj cheekpeice.
Tyler Rodgerson <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 12:51:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am looking for any leads as to how I can find information on either Walter Birdsong's Black-T finish or I believe what is called an MP3 finish. I have heard lots of good stuff on both and would like to find out how I can contact either one for info, pricing and the like. If you Know of any other finishes along those lines please let me know of them. I am open to ideas and comments.!!

Elijah Corrigan <>
Kalispell, Montana, U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 13:19:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken: you described the one that I have on Betty Lou. The Harris number is S-BRM. It's the swivel base, 6-9", notched leg one. I got mine (and lots of headaches) from D&R Sports.
Bravo <>
bipod country!, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 13:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
thanks for the bipod info....

Okay all - one more...

I also need to lock onto one of those scope bubble levels... the low profile one that fastens to the scope, black in color, to fit on a 30mm scope... I didn't have too much trouble leveling my scope with the swivel bipod ... but that is something that drives me buggy...

I am asking around for several items at once ... I want to go ahead and knock out all the lessons that I learned while @ storm while they're still fresh.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 13:35:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey All! I've been a frequent lurker and reader here, but never posted because I really didn't have anything constructive to add.

But now I have a question for any Garand collector or fan. A friend of mine just bought a M1 Garand-Tanker version. I don't know if it's been re-barreled, I suspect it has, because it's a .308. The receiver is stamped "US Rifle / M1 Tanker / Fed Ord Inc / So El Monte, CA / T50xxx

Are these little babies rare? With it being re-barreled, I don't think it has much of a collectors value, but my main concern is how hard is it going to be for me to find one also?

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!!
Larry <>
Hudson, Wisconsin, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 14:12:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

On Bipods: The short BR works best on an A4 or McHale Stock. The next size up works best on the A1,A2 and A3 stocks. The swivel with the nothes is the best way to go.

On AR slings. I use ten feet of 1.25" milspec webbing and five slide bar keepers. One for the front swivel. Two for a slide stop. One for a slide and one for the rear swivel stop. I configure it like an HxK sling and use it for patrol carry. It makes a loop over my shoulder and I can tighten it down for climbing. In short this is an updated HxK style sling, much like the Ghiles but IMHO better. I do not sell these slings, as they are only for carry/HRT use. They are strickly carry types. I also make a version of my Quick Cuff for AR's. This is a field type sling for the AR and allows both over the shoulder and shooting positions with the cuff.

Bravo, good advice on dry firing!

On dragging the bag. I only use the bag to getthe rifle safe to a staging area,if at all. I dump it and crawl with just a scope cover and muzzle cover. Now I will tell you how to make your own muzzle cover. Take a 3" piece of HD 3" wide elastic and sew it to allow only a muzzle opening. Then attach a 24" piece of 1/4" wide elastic(sew). Turn the whole thing inside out and tie to your rifle. This takes about twenty minutes, costs less than a buck and you have it. Or be lazy and send seven bucks to me, but really if you have the energy to make a ghillie you should make your own muzzle cover.

MikeMIller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 14:22:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Scope bubble level" - get it from Sinclairs (219) 493-1858. They list it as an anti-cant device at a cost of approx $24 USD.

Sinclairs also has the notched leg bipods in the 9-13" height as well.
The swivel one is HBP-LMS $89 and the non swivel is HBP-LM $59.75. I have never seen the 6-9" version with detents....If I ever do, it will be mine moments later.

On Birdsong Black-T - I have a Kahr K9 with this coating on it... it wears off from holster use, and will scratch, but it does protect the pistol well and dramatically reduces corrosion issues. I'm now of the opinion that I was in too much of a rush to buy the "latest and greatest" when I chose this coating... parkerizing is probably a better "tactical" solution. (so again, I learn the hard way)

I'm off to Storm this weekend for the train up and rendezvous..anyone willing to offer tips on ghillie construction... mine looks pretty lame...(nomex jumpsuit with netting sewn on... couple strands of burlap string attached).... I sure hope the intent is to TEACH dopes like me how to construct one. All my other kit is tested and ready (mentally, I'm ready to shut up and listen), I might even make the 1.5 mile run without coming in last... but this ghillie thing, not much in my civilian life to draw from on this topic...
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 14:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don't sweat the bubble... it'll be on your front porch, tomorrow afternoon!

Do the laser thing before you go to Storm, or I'll spend the money on some "Tramp in sheeps clothing" ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 15:07:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Glad to hear you survived Storm. The level bubbles are available from Brownells. I think they cost $25-30.

I agree with CDC. You need to shoot a .22 first. It is okay to skip over a 223, but the 22 is the backbone of good shooting discipline. Spend the money on a good 22 bolt gun or an accurate 10/22 and then try and shoot out the barrel. 22 ammo is available for $2-10 per box of 50 depending on quality. 223 can be bought for $14 per box of 20 for match grade ammunition. This keeps your concentration on the shooting and out of your wallet. A heavy barrel 22 has essentially zero recoil. A 223 does have some recoil and barrel jump even though it is not painful, it can hide small trigger errors. At some point after shooting the big bores for 50 years and being the best shooter on the planet you will realize that the 22 still has one thing going for it, it is just plain fun to shoot.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 15:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Your ideas on the correct sized round for learning to shoot was excellent advice. When my son started shooting, 1968, I used the .22 rimfire then .22-250 (easier to buy at that time) then .243 Winchester, more report and recoil, then the .30-06. .308 wasn’t available yet. Besides as a ground pounder vet of the 7th Infantry Division, Korea, I didn’t think there was a better caliber. He now shoots the .308 more than the ‘06.
From past experience I agree that if started as you recommended he will have excellent results, as well as becoming a life time gunnut.

Rudy <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 15:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address:




For those attending the Sniper Rendezvous on September 23rd and 24th.

The "Un-Official" post match gathering spot this year will be the Dennys on Rt. 220 south of Keyser, WV. / More information (Start times, and If we can reserve a room) will be posted closer to match date.

This being due to the unfortunate closing of last years bastion of Ghillie Clad competitors - Francescos (aka Lucys Sheep Dip Cafe).

We now return you to the regularly scheduled banter.............


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 16:07:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

On "Tanker" Garands...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, unless you have one of the very rare T26 rifles (2 or 3 made) or handful of PWB rifles (all supposedly reverted back to standard configuration after being found unsatisfactory), you're looking at one of the thousands of commercially made specimens, which have no collector value whatsoever and are seen as a fairly terrible mutilation of a fine, historic rifle.

Hope this helps guide you purchase decision!

Paniolo <>
Honolulu, Hawaii, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 17:36:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

ALloyd: I completely skipped over brother CDC's advice of starting calibers, and skipped straight to the dry firing. My comments here would be completely redundant. Buy a good 22 (mine was a bolt gun), and BRICKS of good ammo. Don't let anyone tell you what you "can't do" with that rifle, find out what you CAN do! I started with open sights (a peep is the ONLY way), but your choice may vary. As for ammo, try it all. I've got one now that does better with Rem (SHORTS!!) than it does with Eley Tennex. Can anyone explain that?

UnDude: I learned that from my old hi-power partner, and he shot WELL. Never the less, let no one forget, I am the student, YOU are the teacher! Which is as it should be. BTW, it always feels good to hear that I'm doing something right by a true pro. JUST MY OPINION!!: You ought to let more folks know about that AR sling. I would have got a Giles if you hadn't spoke up!
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the great, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 17:45:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

what is your opinion of the MK4M3 scope?, I own the M1, and really like it, but I'm wondering if the M3 provides any advantages (other than the obvious).

Are they hard to adjust for if your loads are not EXACTLY like the cams?.

Your expert opinions welcome, as I am dumb as a rock on this variety............

I know some of you have used them extensively on the M24's, and would like your feed back, online or off........thanks, Two Shoes( Terry).
Two Shoes <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 17:49:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Everyone, thanks for the tips on the bi-pods. I found the Short Bench Rest with the leg notch at:

S-BRM (leg notch) wt. 13 ozs. Price $69.99

On the scope level, I have one made by B-Square that looks like a small line level, it mounts to a Weaver style one piece rail and sticks out to one side of the mount. I'm not sure if it would work on two piece mounts. It can be seen at

No reason to choose this model over the ACD scope ring style, I just ran across it first. With the B-Square level I can see the bubble with my non-sighting eye with no movement of my head. The only con so far is that it appears that it may be prone to sticks out about 3/4 inch to the side of the mount...the ACD has it beat there.


Jim <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 17:58:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes...

Opinion of the MK4-M3? Out-friggin'-standing!... and worth the money.
If you are shooting a bullet that is one of those that match, or come very close to the cams, you can make a notation and get by... if you plan to shot something way off, you won't be happy. Suitable bullets are the 168, 175, and 190 SMK's and the 168 and 178 A-Maxs.

Also very good, and less expensive is the M3-LR. There are some by Schmidt&Bender, Zeiss, and Swarovski that are very fine also, but I can't speak to them personally.

If you have a standard length barrel, or handload, it will be no problem to get this scope to track any of the above bullets.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:05:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can anyone give some advise on mounting a harris bi pod on an
M1A ? Any help would be appreciated.
HawgDawg <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 18:49:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
Two Shoes, on the MK4M3. This is a fine scope and is far easier to use under field conditions than the M1 version. It has Balistic Drop Compensator wheels for the 168/308 load at 2600 fps(in yards) the 175 at 2600 (in meters) (if you can find a Military one), the 180/30-06 at 2700 fps (tracks with the 175 at 2700 perfectly in yards) a 55/223 (who cares)and a 220grain 300 Win at 2650fps in meters. I have heard some talk of developing a 190 grain wheel but have not seen one.

IMHO the MK4 M3 is better in many catagories than the USMC scope, but the USMC scope has better fine adjustments and optics. The MK4 has an user adjustable objective, which the USMC scope does not have.

The advantage the M3 has offer the M1 is that on the M1 you can be off by one or more rotations and not notice it until you get the miss. This happens under stress. The advantage the M1 has is it has 1/4moa adjustments while the M3 has 1moa elevation and 1/2moa windage. M1 is for precision and the M3 is for field.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 19:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looking for your opinions and expertise.
What scope would you purchase for a CR6724 Colt Accursed Rifle?
Looking to get down in the mud at the High Power Tactical Match
Course at the Sacramento Valley Shooting Center this fall. The targets are B-27's which are engaged at 200, 300, 500, 600, 800, 900, 1000, and back to 830 to 900 yards, three shots at each distance.

Willing to learn.


Rich Englefield <>
El Dorado, Ca, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 20:14:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would suggest you go through In Review section and the Archives as this is a common discussion topic. Since it is a common topic I am going to avoid giving specific suggestions as to brand. Although I will say that I have 3 Leupolds and I have been very happy with all of them. Beware of people trying to sell you too much power. Anything over 14x will probably have too much mirage to see anything. The most common scopes are fixed 10x and a variable 3.5-10x. You will need to have a 30mm tube to have enough elevation to get all the way out to 1000. According to my ballistics program the 80gr SMK requires about 45 minutes of elevation to get to 1000. This is slightly more than a 308 175gr SMK.

When you mount your scope spend money on good rings. Badger Ordnance makes rings specifically for AR flat tops.

There are a lot of fine optics out there and they all have one thing in common, they are not cheap.

The Shooter <>
Cooling off to the mid 80's in, God Bless TX, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:17:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, for better or worse, tonight is Missus Bravo's Concealled Carry course. A couple of months from now, the state should be infintessimally more safe. I hope. Get 'em while you can, if the politicians try to stop it, it's harder to stop a BIG program than a small one!
Bravo <>
the heat packin' state of, Utah, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Two Shoes,

I believe 'Lito's description of "out frigging-standing" said it all. As an owner of that fine scope myself, I chime in with the same seal of approval.
Expensive, but well worth the dough.

As a feild scope, the one-turn dial is great only for it's simplicity, a 1/2 MOA fine adjustment like the Unertl would be nice, but as long as I can put a bullet in a torso sized target, it does the trick for me.

Don't worry if the ammo doesn't track the yardages on the knobs exactly, as long as you know what to turn to for each yard line, that takes the time at the range.

Semper Fi

Kush out

PS, 'Lito, As soon as I find a long enough place to shoot, I'll send you out all the yardage clicks for the 168 smk

Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Question-getting into the Savage rifle argument a bit late-love my savage-choate stock makes the weapon a real shooter,but require info 1) how do you ''dial down'' the trigger pull/weight?
2) what round can any one recomend(308)that I can buy bulk without
going broke? want small groups but bought rifel for social conditions
that may exceed 200 yards,so round must be "tactical" NOT AN EXPERT-no ego to bruise! ANY help would be
michael coughlin <>
woodbury, connecticut, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 21:24:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
On drag-bags

With my experience with drag-bags, I find Brew-master Bravo's question to Ken very interesting.

Previously posted>>>>
Ken: this is gonna sound stupid, but did you use the drag bag as a drag bag, or as a range bag? The reason I'm wondering is because I would LIKE a drag bag for protection of dirt in the M-25 (changing zeros and degredation of accuracy) but I was told I'd be laughed off the course if I actually used a drag bag like it was intended <<<

When I was crawling around in the dirt as a young Lance-corporal, the drag-bags we used were simplicity at it's finest.

3rd SOTG has us make a 3-ply canvas "sock" for our rifles, similar to the rifle scabards that your horse-back guides use.
You had the canvas folded over swen to a "point",closed on one end, a poncho-liner used for lining and an open end to pull the rifle out from that is secured with fas-tec buckles or 550 cord tie-down to close the open end.
At the tip, we sewed a hand loop of mil-spec tubular webbing from our assault climbers kits and 2 welded metal rings from an old pair of UTD shorts to sewn in and used as attach points for a sling and the complimentary 550 cord loops for camo.

This bag was sleek, simple and durable.

The drag-bags of today are , let's face it too big and bulky in my eyes for a good stalk. The Eagle, Balckhawk, US TActical supply bags have too much going on for my taste. I perfer to have all my mission essential gear on my body, not in the ruck, not in the drag bag.

I guess I'm just crazy, but that is my story and I'm sticking with it

Sorry for the long post

Semper Fi

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 22:16:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Now that you guys have got me doing a lot of work at the reloading bench, I have a question. How fast are your loads for your .308's? I'm not so interested in what powder, etc., but how fast they are. Do you just settle in on a good consistent velocity when the loading is accurate, or do you push for the same accuracy with a little more speed at the muzzle? I am loading and shooting 168 SMK's (target) and 165 SBT's (hunting). I am trying loads from 2550 to 2750 fps, out of a 26" barrel. I am more than happy with the load that gets me 2700, and anything more than that and the accuracy goes down and pressure problems might arise. I feel that the consistency I'm getting now with my favorite load just might be what my rifle likes best too. Is there any point to trying to push these Sierras a little faster? The only thing I can think of is to deliver more energy downrange with the hunting load...

Thanks men, keep up the good threads. You twenty who post every day are teaching us two hundred who don't quite a bit.

Brian <>
OR, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:10:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm going to make a careful observation on this M3 vs M1 choice. I bought the M3, used it a while and traded it for a M1. The M3 frustrated me because it seemed as if I always had the choice between hitting high or hitting low. With the M1 I hit where I want. After the trade I did some things that would not have been possible with the M3. But those M1 turrets stick WAY up.

Its not that big of a deal which one you buy. If you buy one and don't like it, trade it for the other on the Emporium. All you lose is $15 to OOPS (UPS).

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:15:42 (ZULU) (your host address:


The 2700fps load you have is close to top... you might be able to squeeze out another 50 fps, but you won't see any effect down range.
If you're happy with the load, don't push your luck.
Also remember that "flat out" loads will shorten case life, and keeping those cases is important, or you won't have anything to load ;)

Gimme a call tonight, before 10:30 eastern, (but not after... Wednesday is my work week ;)
A doggie box is on the way!


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:31:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes already has an M1.
And with 1 moa clicks (1 moa = 10" at 1000yds), worst case is you would be off +/- 5" at 1000yds.

But... and this seems obvious, but obviously isn't... you can "split a click".. the dial doesn't have to be centered in a detent... which means that worst case is you will be off by +/- 2.5" at 1000yds.
And I couldn't shoot the difference of 2.5" at 1000yds, on the best day of my life!


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:38:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, thanxs for the info-regarding 200yrd social conditions-not a rifle expert but have been 'round and lived ''Down south'' (PAST Texas
and have seen governments change before my coffee got cold-anyone who
reads this site and ONLY plans to EVER fire at paper should not be
reading a SNIPER web page-also I keep a pistol in a lock box by my
bed, does that mean I'm paranoid?
WOODBURRY, CT, USA - Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 23:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pablito: I often miss the obvious.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:04:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo - You are right that the scope cover and muzzle mitt will not work for that danged semi-auto, and yes Kotex was a bit harsh. I seem to forget that in my age we used it for all sort of padding and did not mean it in a disparaging manner, only a PAD IT manner. As to what is wrong with the M25 is that I don't have one. The military has dropped the project in favor of a heavy M4 long barreled thingy wacky. The only reason we banned and bomb the drag bag is that it is misused. The name came from the fact you could drag it by a handle in the manner that the rifle was drug in the low crawl by the sling. It was not to be dragged around on the end of 15 feet of nylon webbing so that it can stand up and wave every time it gets caught on something. At which time the sniper dutifully yanks the crap out of the 15 feet of nylon and the bicycle flag goes wavy wavy. Liked your dry fore technique, try a length of 1/4 inch dowl wtih a carbon mark on the end. Length is longer than the barrel and when you dry fire the dowl will move forward and "mark" the paper below the spotters. With practice you should only have one large mark and not a bunch of little punches. It is amazing how big that group can be just out of the barrel. It is kinda like the 'X's you shoot dry fire until that fifty pound bullet is put in the weapon for that off hand shot.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:08:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

MICHAEL COUGHLIN: if you're paranoid for that, I wonder what I am. I don't wear mine when I'm in the shower or sleeping and that's about it. The farthest I get from a pistol EVER is when I'm 20 yards and a 6 foot chain link fence away from mine at work, and usually there's a rifle beside the pistol ;-) I'm not paranoid, just got used to it. Used to live in the "cultural district" of Dallas, where the local cops rented the apartment right under mine for dope stings.

Brother CDC: don't let it sweat you, 'Lito didn't let me in on that until AFTER the class.

Brian: I second 'Lito's statement. Mine cruise significantly less than 2700 now.

Kush: please tell me more. Seems that I'm learning here, just slowly.
Bravo <>
looks like the Detective Special might have a use now after all, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Missed the M1 - M3 discussion, but I second Lito, and in the archives you will find my opinion of a scope that moves the strike of the bullet less then the bullet diameter at 100 meters. Think about it, I have seen guys worry a zero to death over that one dam .25 moa click. I have also been witness to a shot that missed by 15 moa. One revolution as in Mike's discussion. That shot was mine and it caused me to have to "move out smartly" with a miss to boot. Of course I am a little biased as I am one of the butt heads that set up the M24 requirements and .25 moa dials were not even considered.

Question to guys that have recently shot M118LR 175 gr military ammo. What are your experiences? We are getting real crappy gorups and accuracy sucks. Is this just our experience with the LOTs that we have or is this wide spread? I am not talking about commercial 175 gr ammo, only the Lake City crap.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:20:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tanker Garands;
These are all made up as commercial production as has already been stated and evidenced by the "Fed-Ord" markings.I have one by Arlington Ord. on a Springfield rec. that I put in a Beretta BM-59 Mk IV Nigerian stock(pistol grip/walnut by Sile)it's accurate reliable and VERY loud with a Smith Ind. comp.If you want a fast reasonably light .308 S.A.and are willing to 'smith on it some a "Tanker" will do it,I wouldn't take for mine.Reese Surplus(RSI)has these stocks new without metal for $75,however they do require some modification to work properly.When properly installed they are way high on the cool and ergonomic scale.

Jim that Doesn't Forget;
Check the fit of that level to your bases.I bought one and installed on Baer base that on superficial inspection looked good but when using it and checking vertical tracking on my scope found it to be like everything else I ever bought that had "B-Square" on it...poorly machined.The dove tail cut did not match the dimensions of the base well and smushed when tightened causing it to heave by several degrees I verified this with a Starrett precision level.Like so many other things it looks good works bad.Your mileage may vary.
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:32:09 (ZULU) (your host address:


Still learning nothing, you bring up a good point on the drag-bag/range bag dilemma. Theb reason I thing the way I do about
these high-speed, low-drag bags is the enviromnent I was trained in

In a jungle setting like Okinawa and the P.I., the A.O.'s are wrought with the dreaded catch-me, f**k me vines. We tried the Eagle drag bags nearthe end of my time in Oki in '93, they snagged on every branch, vine, you name it, I snagged it. I had never had that problem with my home-made special.

Rock On dudes

Kush out

Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 00:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, I disagree with 2700 being hard to get with a 175 in 308 Win. You are pushing a crappy Remington bbl to get it, but a good 26" match bbl or a Winchester 26"SS bbl will do it with ease. Every one of these I have tested with 175 Federals went over 2700 fps. All the PSS's went under 2700, with the same lots of ammo. That hammer forged bbl fouls and just does not let the bullet go as fast. My Rice built rifles all clock in at 2740-2750fps with Federal and Blackhills 175's. They work great with the 30-06 BDC wheel.

On the MK4 were did you get the info about the 190 wheel?

Rick, we all have been a complete turn off. I had used a M1 for years before you, Rod and Gooch told me that everyone messed up with them eventually. I then shot across the class perfect and missed three shots between 400 and 600 yards on the Carlos Match. Nothing like hitting the 900 yarders and missing the easy ones.

I still prefer the M1 for precision work but for a 308 field rifle I see nothing wrong with making life simple/M3
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 01:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

At the risk of getting a certain someone who shall remain anonymous (not you Pablo) dangerously excited, I've got a comment about M3/M1 turrets. If I don't double-check the M3 I'll screw up. I have multiple witnesses. Same with the M1 except no witnesses. With the M1 I black out all the marks on the turret above the mark for 100 yards. Number of turns is easy to read right off that dial. MAYBE I'm more prone to making a mistake with the M1. I doubt it.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 01:06:11 (ZULU) (your host address:


Glad to see you're having good luck with your new Rem700. I think it's time to visit the Miami Rem Warranty gunsmith for a nice, light trigger job, mount a scope, swab the bore and go shoot the damn thing! That is why I bought it, after all!


Mrs. Bravo is getting her CCW, eh? Good for her. You're right, the more of US there are, the harder for THEM to explain to us the error of our ways!


ONLY TEN BUCKS? Damn right, bro. After what I dropped for the 700 Police and what I'm gonna drop for the Loopo LR M3, that's all I got left! And it's gonna cost me $20 to have the doc carve SNIPERCOUNTRY.COM into my knee Friday!

Hey, did you say "full auto?" Ooooohhhhhhh. I think a trip to the panhandle needs to be planned.


Moe Mensale <>
NiceDayInBoca, FL, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 01:31:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

ON the "drag bag" issue. I like the eagle bag but I didn't use it as a "drag bag". It was a good way to carry all of the teams sniper gear. When the team got in the target area, the gear came out and was carried. Scope cover, muzzle mitten, and proper preparation/care of the rifle protect it when out of the team bag and moving into an FFP.

Being that a sniper rifle is next to worthless in a break-contact during infiltration/exfiltration the man humping the team bag is better off with a CAR. My one problem with the team bags in this mode is that when you are humping it the barrel is right behind your head making it real uncomfortable.

Guys I was at Quantico when we helped Eagle design the thing (around '85?). It was not meant to be used as a "Drag bag" as much as it was meant to get the gun and all of its collateral gear into the target area. I have seen morons walk with the thing dragging on the ground behind them (I left my OP perch on a stalk for that one). Its silly. Think about it. That rifle is the whole focus of your mission and you are going to "drag" it? Maybe when low crawling but thats the only time and when you do that you have to have complete control of it less it knock a bush, snag a tree etc so you keep it close to your body. When I low crawl its between my legs.

Thats rifle is your baby. It gets cleaned before you wash your dick, eat, sleep etc. You dont drag the thing. Ahh but thats the Jarhead in me...."This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine..."

1/4 moa scopes. Great for known distance competitions, not good for the bush. I heard of another 1 revolution out error (windage this time) at CFSAC this year by a very well trained American sniper. If you are going to use them learn to count your dope off by taking the turrets to mechanical zero (counting clicks till bottomed out) and record this setting. GO to mechanical zero prior to shooting then count your clicks back to your base zero as with iron sights. Or you can hope for the best and screw up that one important shot. Of course every shot is important but thats another soap box.....

Gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 02:21:35 (ZULU) (your host address:


Chill out Dude... you're taking too much of that Ginsu pain killer ;)

I didn't say it 2700 with the 175 SMK was hard to get... I said it was up there, and a good load, and that he could get more, but why?

I just shot some 308 Fed GM-2 out of a fast 27.5" barrel (that gives me 2650 with 190 SMK's without even breathing hard)... and the pissy Fed GM-2 went 2620 :((
I got pellet guns that do more betterer ;)
Lemme see... that 10,247 things we don't agree on. :))

About M3 300W/190 cams... I posted that a while ago... (and got a new round of attacks from...
Anyway... I've been on Lupita's case for a year on the cam thing, and Lupita's engineers are looking at the whole M3 cam issue, and re-calc'ing all but the M3-LR military metric cam.
They are considering dropping the 223, and 30-06 and issuing 3 cams for the .308, and two cam for the 300W.

I'm with Rick and the others... I've lost points... and matches with target turrets, under pressure.

Last year at Storm, on the long range "Downtown" target, my spotter called me "8 FEET over" the target... and I said you're ****** me, and (stupidly) let another fly, and was 8 feet over, again...
(rule#1 ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR SPOTTER, even if his name IS Chainsaw;)... rule #2, go read rule #1 again... twice!!

I was a full turn off on the target turrets.

I'll take a M3 on a field gun every time.

Don't feel bad... took me a whole year to figure that one out, and I'm the "Cam man" ;)

Like the mn said... "Rock On, Dudes"!!


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 02:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablo: I feel fine. I shoot the Winchester HBV with the Loopy M1 and will continue to. When I miss, its not my equipment's fault.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 03:24:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Barrel replacement question:

This site has beaten to death who has the best barrel, but what I need to know is who can deliver a good barrel quickly, as in the next month or so, not next year.

I will be getting another 300 win mag barrel for my Remington Sendero in the next few weeks and would like a good quality barrel. (My stocker shoots sub-MAO no problemo, but has almost 2,500 rounds through it.) thanx.
Hank <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 03:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Drag Bags et al.
You can always strap them to your ruck - it'll give you more head movement and if you are out for awhile the bag is not going to be able to carry your kit.

Jerry - sorry Video still not done - my 203 is still "in the mail" back from repair. We are running a match 7-8 October and I will get the final footage then - but it should be good.

Marius - review of stock almost rewriten

Also for any likely to be near Calgary, Alberta Canada 7-8 October, I am running the 1st Annual Unintended Consequenses Match at our club that weekend. Three gun match on Saturday, then a stalk Sat at dusk and a Service rifle and sniper match the sunday. I can send detailed info for those interested.

Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 03:38:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guess I'd have to agree on the M3 1 moa clicks. I don't know how many times I've had to bore sight to get back on for sure with 1/4 clicks. Seems like a rotten thing to do in a combat zone or tactical course of fire. It sucks they can't find a way to count turns on those turrets. Hear us up there scope makers.
I can't see myself doing anything except grabbing my "Bolt Rifle" and running if discovered with no passport to enemy country. No time for bags and stuff or changing weapons probably. On low power I believe I could make it rough on anyone following too fast. I'm gonna throw out some basic here for lurkers and beginners. When you have to aim rapid with your bolt rifle. Look directly at the target and put the scope between you and the target. Don't look in the scope and try to find the target like you might do at long range prone under high power.
Especially on running or moving targets. Don't wait for the cross hair to settle just let the "force" fire the weapon. Your shot will be just as good. Don't forget to lead it a little. And don't do too much math cause you'll be dead before you get the answer. Practice is the key to savin your ass! The best computer you have for shooting is the one between your shoulders and it's faster than a pentium. If you have the time figure all you want to confirm the proper shot. But it probably won't help if your rushed for time. Find it, track it, lock on, fire and follow through if your swinging. IF you think about it that way you have a good chance to connect. Sound like a shotgun?
So be it! I'll get flamed by some but it's the same game. You must do the windage and elevation at long range too but you don't have a prayer otherwise.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 04:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks guy's for all the info.

I've only used the M1's, and can see where they could be a problem, (as I have had to question myself), with NO pressure on a 1K range, NOW where was I??????.

Sorry to have missed out on all the action, felt real special ya'll talkin them dials............

I been slavin' away on first time cleaning on a New 300WM RAMINGTON, always takes 2 hours, man they are rough!!!!!!!

Always take em' to the bare steel before break in start.( hope I got a straight chamber).Will know, if it shoots around corner's pointed straight!!.

Again, appreciate your help, now awaiting baby to mount!!

Two Shoes,
Deep in the Heart of Texas!( well the North part).
Two Shoes <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 04:43:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin of the North: it's a short 1100+ mile drive to Calgary, so what's the skinny? What's it cost, and more importantly, will I be "detained" at the border trying to enter with a M-25, CAR, and Glock "longslide 19"? Also, as I'm only dangerous to myself with a smoothbore, the only scattergun in the house at the moment is the wifies wingmaster, so would I be at an "unfair disadvantage" without one?

Wild Bill, you anchor of reality you, sounds like you've had a similar experience. 3-9 variable, still set on 9 from checking the zero. Saw the buck, but then couldn't find him with the scope. Ah, to be young and dumb enough to not think of opening the other eye again. After that, hunting rifles were either open sights or straight 4X's.

Master Rick: The Kotex thing was prejudiced in how I heard it. I got "you know what Rick said about your M-25?". BAH! If I can ever figure out how to sew, I'm thinking of an "action cover" that would basically be a WAY extended scope cover / muzzle mitt to cover op rod, receiver and all. Don't hold your breath, I'm no Mike! As for the off hand shots, well, that's where I either strap in hard (shooting jacket) or get LOW scores! That's why this F-class stuff is so inviting to me. I like to do what I enjoy, and I enjoy what I do well. Therefore, no practice on the stuff that needs practicing, right? Lately I've convinced myself to do more sitting, but still don't have the discipline to do offhand. Hey, it's demoralizing! Besides, who decided there should be no slings used off hand?

Kent and Rick: I'll let the two of you slug it out on how I'll do the Storm stalk next year. BFA so you can see the brass, bolt action the thing, or with no BFA to stir the dust more.
Bravo <>
where the bride isn't pregnant, but her mother is, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 04:47:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bruce E, I totally agree on the B-Square issues, thanks for the heads up. Pablito's idea of semi-permanantly mounting the anti cant device level with the reticle is great. I've learned a great deal for the short time I've been monitoring this site...thanks, Jim
Jim <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 05:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello folks!!


You might try giving Janet at HS Precision a call about your rebarrel dilemma. My 300 win mag bbls don't shoot too shabby, and we should be able to run it thru the system fairly quick. Tell her young Jerome gave you the heads up and we'll see what we can do for ya!! phone is (605)341-3006, we're out of South Dakota.

Yours aye

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 06:53:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank God you said something about the drag bag. I was wondering if I missed something during training and didn't want to sound stupid about not dragging (except in the '72 Charger). On a low crawl I always went over the forearm/shoulder, though.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 11:23:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo; been about a week actually since it happened last. Called and Wiley showed up immediately 25 yards away. Me on 10X. I quickly changed it to 14X. He got my wind and was gone while I brought it down to 4.5X. Wiley Ran toward my pardner 50 yards away (right between us so I couldn't shoot.) When he passed, my shooter had his Sheperd on Range finding @14 power also. The 4 foot sage brush did the rest. From year to year we forget everything we know. In a combat situation I guess he would have had us both. Lets talk about the great ones again! ahem.
I used a 4x fixed one year on a CAR and did just as well for the most part. I remember taking out 4 or 5 running around 100-150yds. with that combo that year. apology for "hunting country".
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 12:30:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Been in court all week so I am trying to catch up. I had a great weekend, I got a chance to rain death and distruction on a dog town that handn't been shot in and you know what thats like!!! I agree with you and Rick on the scopes, you just can't beat the 1 moa dials for tactical shooting. I have seen it happen more than once at matches where somebody will be a full reveloution off on the dial. When I shot in Wyoming this year with the 6.5x284 I had the 4.5x14 on it and was scared to death I would do just that. After leaving every station I would bring it back to its zero because I was so affraid of being off on the next one. I made my son question me after every station and then when we got on station for the next one we would double check each other on dials and wind calls. We did a complete match with only one brain fart on the last day on the man on man when he forgot to dial up to the next range. I would really like to see Leupold make a damn windage dial like the M1 has where it will read from "0" to 7 MOAs both left and right instead of going from "0" to 14 MOAs in only one direction it would be a lot faster and easier to figure when your under pressure. I even had a hard time adding up elevation clicks to come up with 26 MOA under pressue. Its the shits to get old an senile(HA) This year out there the top four places were 300WM, 22-243(With 80grVLDs), and 6.5x284s and a 6.5x284 won it last year. It really is a hell of and advantage to shoot one of these because when your shooting at a 14"x14" target at 1000+ yards your margine of error between these and a 308 isn't even close, not to mention wind drift being about half.

I push my 308 168s to 2800fps with Varget and for that reason I have not switched to the 175s that eveyone else is going to.Mine is and aftermarket barrel and as Mike says its easy to get good velocity out of a good barrel.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 13:58:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Drag Bags:

Okay Hogs... I took the recommendation of a fellow roster hog and ordered the drag bag from It has 3 pouches, heavy material, good looking zippers, shoulder straps, and will hold a 50 inch gun. Will let ya's know how it flies...

On comments made earlier regarding dragging the bagged rifle in the while on the walk.... now that's about a brain damaged way to treat yer rifle. I found myself either humping it on my back, or carrying it cradled in my arms on the move. When going worm-style.. then it is drug either beside or behind me ... still trying to minimize the banging on rocks, etc.

The salty dudes (Kent, Rick, Rod, etc) have the last words on that one - but Ima telling ya what worked for me.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 14:32:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Some comments on Bill Rogers' post:

When you have to aim rapid with your bolt rifle. Look directly at the target and put the scope between you and the target.

**Yeah. Both eyes open and use a shotgun mount to bring the rifle to your eye.

Don't look in the scope and try to find the target like you might do at long range prone under high power.


Don't wait for the cross hair to settle just let the "force" fire the weapon.

**This "force" is the circut you have burned between your eye and your finger. You pick the point you want to hit. The sight picture pulls the trigger. That's why you did those two hundred thousand dry-fires and you burned that hundred bricks of .22.

Don't forget to lead it a little.

**I like the "swing through". The gun just goes off.

And don't do too much math cause you'll be dead before you get the answer.

**For this kind of shooting you put your crosshairs where you want the bullet to go.

Find it, track it, lock on, fire and follow through if you're swinging.

**Well said.

Sound like a shotgun?

**Almost. With a shotgun you pick a point, lock on with your eye and visually ignore the shotgun. When your body feels right you break the shot. With a rifle you pick a point then visualize the desired sight picture. The sight picture breaks the shot. Ideally the rifle should be light enough and have the balance to 'point' like a shotgun. The stock should come to the eye like a shotgun's. That usually implies building up the comb. Its easiest to acquire the target with a lower powered scope. For me 4X will do but 2.5X is better. I don't have much luck if the scope is mounted further back than the back of the trigger guard. The scope should be mounted as low as possible.

If my increasingly creaky memory serves, the performance standard is 3.25" circle at 25 yards in 1.5 seconds. The place where I learned this technique has the students shoot skeet with bolt guns. (I missed every shot then went home and practiced A LOT.) One guy hit a double in front of many witnesses.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 14:46:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am no expert on stalking but when I did I used the drag bag and really liked it also. I found it much easier than having my rifle slung over my arm and since I didn't have the proper cover for it I wasn't in any hurry to use it that way. When I was offered the drag bag I jumped at it and really liked the way it protects the gun and gives you a place to carry some other gear you may need. The "Pros" showed us how to tie it off with cord and drag it as you stalk and use your foot to guide it as you stalk, it worked great for me and when I needed it I just reached back and reeled in the cord and had my rife right beside me.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 16:14:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Rant Country

Sorry for going offline, but....

Three years ago, a slime walks into a pawn shop in Miami and BS's with the two employees for a few minutes. He then pulls out a pistol and double taps the first guy in the chest from 12 inches away, killing him instantly. He and the remaining employee then get into a protracted gun battle that lasts until the cops arrive. The slime can't run because the door is locked shut. The second employee is shot several times but manages to survive his wounds.

All of this is caught in explicit detail on the store's surveilance cameras. The videos were admitted as evidence in the trial.

Yesterday, the jury returns a verdict of life imprisonment with no chance of parole for this POS.

The jury took FIVE (5) hours to deliberate over this. The defense attorney thanked the jury for being so "thorough" in their deliberations and, of course, will be appealing the verdict.

This should have been decided in five minutes, not five hours. And the proper verdict should have been a .22lr to the back of the head immediately.

I don't understand it. What are the people in this country thinking about these days? I am definitely missing something here.

Rant over.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 17:05:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

It seems like all this site's heavy hitters disagree with my choice of the M1. It would take a complete fool to try to be a majority of one in the face of that. So one of you guys with vast experience tell me how the following technique is screwy:

1. Zero at 100 yards from the bipod and beanie baby prone.
2. Remove windage turret and replace at zero index.
3. Remove elevation turret and replace with the vertical line at zero and the lowest horizontal line possible at the top of the fixed turret housing (whatever it's called) that comes up from the scope body.
4. BLACK OUT THE HORIZONTAL LINES that are above that line.
5. Establish your 'come-ups'.
6. You keep track of your rotations by the number of horizontal lines above the turret housing.

I've used that technique for only 600 rounds. It seems like it works, but I'm not prepared to apply for the position of SC's resident turret kook.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 17:16:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe: the jury was probably still sore from the indignity of the jury selection process, and wanted to at least get a free lunch out of the deal. Potential jursists are on trial before the court case begins. Your verdict is right on, and I'll buy the first box for 'em!

CDC: I know where you went to school! Speaking of such, the SMG course app goes off today.
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 17:25:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks again for the advice about the .22

Is it worth investing in a scope for a .22 rifle when learning?
ALloyd <>
Canada - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 17:29:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC; thanks for the wrap up, you are right on I believe on movers.
I don't disagree with the turret thing but I just have a hard time seeing those lines in questionable light. I need bifocals but they say I shouldn't wear them due to my long range sight is still 20-10.
Don't make sense to me... but they just give me a close prescription and that's all.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 17:41:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
ALloyd: I learned on Redfield and Lyman target iron sighs, still got several makes (even an adjustable and replacable aperature models), but it's your call. Scopes allow easier precision due to everything being in one focal plane. Since I didn't learn that way, can't tell too much. Other than being really odd, I think I'm a good-mediocre shooter. Which ever you decide, don't use lousy iron sights!
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 17:53:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
CDC, no one is saing you can not count clicks and hit what you aim at with a M1. I went to the M1 Ultra around 1982 and used it because I could hit very close to point of aim at any range. I shoot atleast one day a week, every week for a total of thousands of rounds a month. 1/4 MOA scopes are great for precision work, but in the dark and under stress you can easily foul up and be off a revolution. You do not always have time to bottom the scope and count up. This is where mistakes happen. You are pressured to hit quickly and a you miscount. With a M3 you only have to dial the range and shoot. It only turns once so if you have the dial set at the range, the only mistake greater than about one minute will be the range estimation. If you have range cards already made most of that problem is gone.

It's a trade off ultra precision or ultra simple. As long as your happy and it works you are right. Just do what I know you already do, practice a great deal.

Pablito, I am relaxed, but excited at the thought a 190 wheel might be out there. The reason to use the 175's at 2700, is that what the Army LR round does out of my rifles. My reloads duplicate that so all my data is the same. To keep it simple.

Bravo, just take and old pair of BDU's and cut the pant leg off. You now have a cover for that M25. You might need to get a pair of long length pants to make it work. I am not sure of the weapon length. Me I just sew the darn cloth to work and put a tie string on the rear, like the old west guys did.

MIkeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 18:01:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

An earlier post by Heikki inquired about the Badger Ord. vs. D.D. Ross Remington trigger guards. Gooch replied that they "...are most positively not the same!!"
Could anyone tell me what the specific differences are between the two and feelings on which is better?
Nap <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 18:19:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
If you mean you want to shoot 190's in a 308, with the M3-LR, use the metric 175 cam, and shoot the 190's at 2620... they will be a few inches under the wire from 500 to 800 meters... but nothing that will be a problem in a match... try the 190's in the 308 with heavy loads of Varget, H380, and similar burning speed powders.... I'm running the 190's out of the "Black Mamba" at 2620, with absolutly no signs of pressure (though your milage may vary, depending on driving conditions ;)

You know how to make a guy green with envy... a virgin town!
I'm saving my money in a jelly jar, to get out there next summer... save a few (thousand!) for me.

Much as I respect your mathematical and shooting skills... 'splaining to Bill Rogers how to shoot 'yotes, is like teachin' Bill Clinton to lie!!
Momma 'yotes tell their pups about "Ol' yote Bate", before they are weened!


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:01:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

NAP, The M1 DD Ross guard is a custom steel guard that is very robust. Mag floor plate is controlled by a recessed tab in the trigger guard that must be punched open with a tool of some sort or cartridge nose. Countersunk for hex socket head guard bolts. Trigger guard is probably at least 1/2 inch wide and at least 1/8 inch thick. Remainder of guard fits flush into stock and requires custom trimming of mag box. This is critical. I've screwed mine up (trimming mag box) and will need someone that knows what they're doing to fix it. Recommend that the guard be bedded into the stock. The thing is a big chunk of metal. You could control a biker bar with it. McMillan will inlet their stocks for either the Ross or Badger guards. It was installed on the first Chandler rifles. Chandler has shifted to the Badger guard for supply and production reasons.

The Badger guard is more petite and refined. The floor plate dump is actually a neat hinged lever that pops out under pressure to open the dump. The guard is actually hefty also but looks very slim and sleek next to a Ross guard. Also countersunk for hex socket head bolts. Of note, you will need to buy new bolts to use either of these guards... in my limited experience, you need a bit extra length.

I'll photograph both on Saturday when I go back on duty and can "borrow" PD's digital cameras and email ya.
Bill971 <>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:07:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

THOMASVILLE, GA., USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:10:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
Speaking of 190 SMK's...

Two Shoes, and UnDude... The 300 Win Mag wheel is marked in "meters", and listed for the 220@2650fps...
HA! (as Pat says).
You shoot this combination, and range in meters, and you will be low at all ranges, and in the dirt, about 30 to 40 feet low, at max range.

How-some-ever... If you use the 300WM-220-2650-meters cam, and you load 190 SMK's to 2950, and use the range markings as yards, instead of meters... you will be pretty much dead on, out to 1200 yards.
The 190 SMK @ 2950, just happens to be the the 300 WM load for the Seals teams...

PeteR... are you out there? ;) You owe me a cheesburger, here's your Christmas present... early! ;)


Pablito <>
Sniper Country "cam kook" ;)... in good old, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 20:26:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito: I wasn't explaining to him. I was translating for him.

CDC <>
Who stole the strawberries?, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 21:12:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mi Amigo lito', that was the last question( the 190 @ 2950, I asked you yestidy.

Thanks for the answer, was EXACTLY what I was hoping to hear, cause I'm duplicating the Seal load for my RIFFFFLE.

This is much better than double recess!!

Next item, question from a dummy(me), why does LUpita, use meters on some calibers, and cams, yards in others??.

May be obvious to you Pro's, but makes NO sense to this Texican.

lito', thanks again, Terry ( Two Shoes), In the dryest, hottest, longest on record Texas, at least since '80, but it DID rain then !).

Two Shoes <>
USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 21:52:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes...

Weither it's meeters, or yards, depends on two things...
First, what the client wants. The new M3-LR was designed at the Army's request, and to their specs... and they said meters, and gave the come-ups. When Lupita first started making thes scopes, they didn't even know what round it was for... they just made then, and the Army said they liked them.

Second, if cams are made that are not for the military... they will make some that they "Think" the public will want... but if you knew the mess that exists on the different cams, you'd wonder who was at the wheel at the time.
The problems come from workers that start a project (a cam) and then leave, and someone else takes it over... and it goes down hill from there.
Example... the "rare" 7.62 Nato-M118 cam is marked in meters, but it's really in yards... it was designed before the military went metric... but some yahoo at Lupita, figures that it must be metric, because "It's the military"... so instead of checking the come-ups, they just mark the cams "Meters". There has been a lot of that, and Lupita is now checking all the cams (except the M3-LR metric military)... and there is talk of them coming out with new re-calculated cams in the winter, or spring.

Lemme know how the cam plays with the SEAL load... all these guys with 300's I may have to get one myself (for test purposes only ;)


Pablito <>
Strawberrys, what strawberrys?... we ain't got no steeenkin' strawberrys... in the troubled, USA - Wednesday, September 13, 2000 at 22:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick B.
Tried some M118LR I got from a friend at Ft. Campbell. It really sucks hind tit. My 700PSS will shoot.75 min. Out to 500m the 118Lr wouldn't hold 2min. Went back to my 175g handloads and got back to my.75 . It was all LC.
By the way, will be going to Bragg in late Oct. to show the 338 Lapua semi-auto that we will be introducing in the new year, will try to look you up. Have to go by 3rd Brigade to see some buds too.
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 00:35:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
ALoyd: Bravo is right. Factory open sights are poo-poo. If you use irons use something like the Lyman or the Williams 'Fool-Proof'. I think the book answer is to start with a peep sight then move to scope. I'm not sure that you can't start with a scope. DON'T BUY A JUNK SCOPE! The Loopy 2.5X7 that is specifically designed for the rimfire is a good choice. The 4X ain't bad either. There are others.

Old target .22s are available. The best ones are hilariously high priced. Perfectly good ones from manufacturers like Marlin are cheap-cheap.

Don't overspend, but don't buy junk. Get a bolt gun.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 00:36:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory, Bravo and anyone else who wants to know,
Took the .460 Rowland conversion 1911A1 to task this evening. I only fired two different .460 loads: 230 gr Gold Dots and 185 gr Nosler JHP. The Gold Dots were standard loads, the 185gr were "Defence" loaded (a little less umph). The 230gr avg was 1323 and the 185gr avg was 1398!! Recoil was less than a .44 Mag, similar to an average .357 load. The pistol fired .45+P Golden Sabres without a problem but would not always function with standard .45 loads. I had one "slam fire" on a standard .45 round after firing a standard .45 round, probably due to the extraordinary spring strength. I had a few feeding problems, due to my use of old GI mags. Accuracy was a bit poorer than with standard and +P .45 rounds, but not to the point that the extra power didn't far out-weigh it. Go to to see all the stuff on it (including a new carbine conversion).

Yeah, bro, the range in Ocala was not worthwhile. There's another range in the area that I hope to get some info on in the next week or so.

If you're OK with it I'll e-mail you direct and we could hook up and go shooting. Have you heard of a range in Keystone Heights?

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 01:02:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

DD Ross stuff:

I have the DD Ross trigger guard/floorplate and the DD Ross picatinny scope mount. Lots of meat! They're both very well made... I like mine alot. I wouldn't think twice about having to hook my trigger guard into a cable and dangle myself, pack, my partner and their gear from it if I had to.

I haven't seen the badger trigger guard or scope mount - but - if they're anything like the badger rings that I use - then you won't be sorry if you choose Badger.


Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 01:10:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Would someone post or e-mail contact info for DD Ross parts, please?
Jim <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 02:19:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have read a lot of talk going on about what seems to be a significant problem in the world of tactical sniping. It concerns personal preference over whether a gun should be ghillied or not.

I have had the opportunity to experiment with several ideas, one of which is a simple gun-ghillie that, contrary to many attempts before hand, doesn't catch and hinder the movement of the gun. Anymore than the firearm would already that is.

I personally don't use this on the barrel, just the stock and scope.

Take a dense mesh of appropriate colour and cut it into a strip, long enough to wrap the desired portion of the firearm, about six inches wide. At each end and anywhere necessary, attach a strong and easily tied string or rope to the mesh. I use para-cord. Tie jute string of appropriate colour, about 9 inches long, as densly as possible to the mesh. The final result ties to the stock and wraps around the gun, tying at the end. Some sections may need to be cut. I use a dense nylon mesh that doesn't unravel but some poleyester and cotton meshes will fall apart if this is done.
Total amount of time? about 2-3 hours.

I hope this helps someone, -Josh-
Josh Laverty <>
Loretto, Ontario, Canada - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 02:29:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, on the 175's, and vels at 2700, the problem with getting the REM barrels to shoot that vel, is not with the barrel.

It is because the chamber on the Rem's are NOT sammi min specs.
I have a PSS, in .08, it will run approx 50-65 fps slower, than my custom, SS Hart, same length bbl, but totally diff chmbr.( REM HAS LIABILITY ISSUE).

Cut them ( chmbr's) same, vel would be so close you couldn't hardly notice it.( same barrel length, bore dia, etc).

Undude, which of your slings would you recommend for a stock PSS?.
I've looked at your site, and don't want to order the wrong one.
Your spurt advice please.

lito', from the post's you and the rest of the guy's have run on the Cam issue, it seems they don't really need to be re-done, but re-labled..............what you say???( as if you KNOW which is which, they would work as is.)

CDC, I followed your post on the M1, and understand the blacking out part, but you kind of lost me, when you said you then read the lines , as they were easy to see.

Seems if you have blacked out the "UP", horiz lines , after zero, all you have left is 1-14 moa's( or a full rotation 15 min.)

That said, how do you keep from making same boo-boo, after cranking up , say 37.5 moa's from your zero mark?.

You still gotta remember where you are, and where your going next..............Hep me out....

thanks all.........Two Shoes

USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 02:38:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Please excuse my off-topic-ness.
Missus Bravo decided to shoot her CCW qual tomorrow with the CZ-75 9mmX19, and the S&W 681 9mmX1.290"R. Both will use lower powered ammo, 38spl+P and NATO 9. I liken it to taking a motorcycle test on a small bike, but since I did mine on a 550, then I have no room for criticizm ;-) Any bets on her score?
And for those of you that questioned my honesty of the 450 HP 351 Windsor, take a look at this months 'Car Craft'. They slapped one together (modified stock heads) for $1356 in parts, including the block, for 405 HP / 392 ft-lbs.
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 02:47:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Two Shoes: This is easy. I could show you in 15 seconds but writing about it is a bitch. I'll try to clarify my previous post.

First do steps 1 & 2 from my previous post.

3. Remove elevation turret ((take it off with an allen wrench)) and replace with the vertical line at zero and the lowest horizontal line possible at the top of the fixed turret housing that comes up from the scope body.((push it all the way down, then bring it up until the tube the turret sticks into is the same level as the lowest possible horizontal line)). Tighten allen screw.

4. BLACK OUT THE HORIZONTAL LINES that are above that line.

Now then: That point is your 100 yard zero. If you crank it up 15 minutes, you are at the same point on the turret except there is one horizontal line above the the tube the turret sticks into. If you crank it up 15 more there are two of those lines. From any point you can just crank the vertical line on the turret until the zero index matches the vertical index mark on the tube the turret sticks into and you know if you are at 0, 15 or 30 minutes of elevation by the number of horizontal lines showing. You don't have to remember where you are. All you need to do is know how to get back to 0, 15 or 30 minutes of elevation.

This is EASY! It only sounds hard when I try to describe it.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 03:22:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanx everyone for their barrel advice. I asked for a source for barrels within the next month. I talked to HS Precision about their barrels and found they also make the stock on the Sendero. Sweet job done on the Sendero's. Maybe not absolute top of the line, but very fine indeed. HS has 30 cal blanks with 300 winmag specs in stock. It seems they are looking at another outsource for doing the work of fitting the barrels by next month. I'll still keep my eyes open, but just some info for the lurkers needing the same thing.
Hank <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 03:51:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gents....went to Wal-Mart this evening to pick up some gun cleaning supplies (Range is closed and I have insomnia...I'm outta copper solvent...) They did not have what I usually use (Sweets) or even Shooters I picked up some Birchwood Casey "Super Strength Bore Scrubber, 2 in 1 Bore Cleaner for Copper and Nitro Fouling" after I got home I had mini buyers remorse. Meaning I know squat about this product and I DO NOT want to put in a gun 'til I know if the stuff is safe. Anybody here know anything about this stuff?

There is a line in the instructions that made me say....hmmmmm. Something about ..."contains a rust preventive to protect the bore." I don't know why that line caused me to pause. But it did. So I thought I'd hold off until I heard some comments on it.
Cory <>
guntotin', Fl, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 03:53:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am having HS Precision build me a sniper rifle. I can't decide between a .300 Win. Mag. or a .300 Ultra Mag. Which caliber do you think would be better. Thanks.
Daren Y <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 03:56:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Some interesting comments on dragbags. We were issued Eagles in late 91 or early 92. For some strange reason, they were made with brown nylon. Was there a USMC sanctioned reason for this, or did some jarhead maybe order the wrong color? What colors did you other guys have?

I tried stalking mine in the bag a few times, then gave it up. it was awkward actually dragging it while low-crawling . They seemed to have a tendency to spin as they were dragged. They often snagged on stuff, as Kush (I think) mentioned.

Constuction quality was outstanding. They were great for hauling the rifles around while on patrol or enroute to a harbor site or patrol base. A few times, I took the backpack straps off of the bag, and attached them to the rifle itself. The barrel stuck up a little high, but it worked well. Tried inverting the rifle, carrying it muzzle down, but the butt was uncomfortable between my shoulders, and I was concerned about getting dirt in the barrel if I knelt or hit the dirt quickly. Unfortunately, we didn't have muzzle protection, and I didn't think embark tape was enough. Padded muzzle covers probably would have worked.

The pockets were GREAT for carrying equipment. In temperate climates we would just use the bag instead of a pack. We folded our poncho liner to add some protection, but still allow quick access to the rifle. We did not use the drag bags in Bridgeport (sierras) or Norway, since we needed the pack to haul cold weather gear, and thought the dragbags would be awkward to carry in addition to a large alice.

I don't know what to think of what a few have alluded to, walking around dragging the bag on a 10 foot or so "leash." It seems like a whole lot of things could happen, nearly all of them bad.

All are invited to check out the USMC Scout/Sniper Association.
If I screwed up the link, go to

Semper Fi,

Mark <>
Ohio, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 05:30:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

i need some info on remington tws sniper rifle ?
4000 us dolars ?
thanks in advance .

YR <>
ISRAEL - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 05:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address:


If you could e-mail me too those pictures of Badger and DD Ross triggerguard I would appreciate it very much.

I have received several informative e-mails about the trigger guards, thank you all for those. People in this site really know first hand what they are talking about.

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 08:35:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes...

The velocity is not a minimum chamber issue. Contrary to popular belief, thghter chambers don't run faster. A few years ago, I tested a bunch of .308 rifles, with the same lot of Fed match.
There was a 130 fps spread between 6 rifles... from 2590, to 2710 fps.
Some of them were predictably... the long barreled match guns were the fastest.

But were two that stood out in the test...
One with a 24" barrel, and a chamber that was so large (first cut on an oversized reamer), that the bullet seating die had to be sent back to the manufacture to be enlarged, to keep the fired cases from sticking in it.

The second was a 26" barrel, with a chamber so small, that fired cases wouldn't touch most of the sides of a FL sizing die...

These two had the following...
The 26", with undersized chamber was 2590fps.
The 24" with over sized chamber was 2695.

For a given barrel length, the one variable that has most to do with velocity, is throat geometry, with bore finish having some effect.

On cams... a few are missmarked, or not identified properly in their literature, but some have bad data in the come-ups, and many are for bullets that aren't available anymore, or that nobody wants to shoot.

Like the 30-06 cam @ 2700 fps... the bullet for that is the 180 SMK,
with the old 13 degree boattail... nobody commercially loads that bullet anymore, and only a few handload it... but it was used to calculate the old '06 cam, at 2700 (once a popular commercial target load).
The BC of the 180 SMK is just slightly less than the new 175 SMK, so the 175 tracks fairly well if driven at 2650, using the '06 cam, if you need to think in yards.
I still haven't been able to figure out what bullet the .223 cams are cut for, and Lupita hasn't the foggest idea.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 11:10:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for an AAR from someone that has had the oppurtunity to compare the ss10x42 and m model Tasco scope to the vari-x 3 LR taticle and MK4 Leupold scopes.

I have read every review I can get my hands on (5) but they are from the stand point of low price and getting alot for the money spent. I am looking for more of a direct comparison with the money not an issue.

Things like brightness, clarity, reticle, etc. compared to the leupold scopes.And if the mfg was unknown so the name would not be a deciding factor which would you pick over the other and why?


John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 11:42:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


The comparison you are asking for, is difficult... it's like asking for a comparison between a Subaru and a Montero... they both go the same places (sorta).

The reason that all you hear about Tasco's is "from the stand point of low price and getting alot for the money spent", is because that's exactly what you get. For $299.99, you get a lotta scope for the money.
If they were s good, the military wouldn't be buying Leup MK4's and M3's or Unertls... they'd go for the Tasco's because the military buys on price vs quality, and if Tasco's had the same quality, and are cheaper, Leupold would be out of the game over night.

They both have mil-dot reticles available... the Tasco lenses are pretty good...
But if they both sold for the same price, Tasco would never sell another scope again.
If ther Tasco's were as good as the Lupitas, the Tasco's would be all over the place, and the Loops would be in the hands of a few collectors.
But shooters that can't afford doodly squat, will save their pennies for a Leupold

"I am looking for more of a direct comparison with the money not an issue."

There is no other comparison between the two.

Things like brightness... similar, that's a function of objective diameter.

Clarity... that's subjective, but under ideal conditions, they would be close, but shadow detail would be better in the Loop, and the shadowes is where the indians hide. Under bad conditions, the Tasco would not make the cut at all... lack of baffling and flocking causes flair when bright light enters the objective.

Reticle... similar.

"And if the mfg was unknown so the name would not be a deciding factor which would you pick over the other and why?.

If you had the two scopes with the names covered... and you had them out shooting for a day, you would not take the Tasco.

You can't evaluate scopes like hi-fi amplifiers... just read the numbers, range, watts, and pick one.
You can have two scopes that look identical in the spec sheet of a catalog, and one can still be a dog-a-roo... .. but with the Tasco, you get a lotta scope for the money.

A good friend of mine use to say...
"I'm too poor to buy cheap things... I keep having to pay for them over, and over, and over, and over... I'd rather buy quality first, pay the price, and be done with it.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 12:55:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


300 win mag:
1. You can find brass real easy and cheap.
2. Wears the throat in 2500 or so rounds.

300 ultra mag:
1. Brass ain't so easy to find.
2. Seems to wear the throat faster.

I like the ultra for a slightly better performance and slightly ( as in barely detectable) accuracy.

If you are buying ammo, go with the ultra. If you are reloading ammo think about the winmag.

I have the winmag and love it, but I would have liked my Sendero in Ultra, but the ultra came only in shiny stainless fluted barrels.

my 2 cents.

Hank <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 16:38:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Upon review of my post, I did screw up the link, and the "interesting comments on dragbags" refers to some earlier posts by other people.

Second try on the link to USMC Scout/Sniper Association.
Mark <>
Ohio, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 17:20:20 (ZULU) (your host address:


The .300RUM is also available in the 700Police version with BDL floorplate, At least the one I possess is..................

One week and counting for The Rendezvous



BIG CITY`, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 18:14:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would like thoughts, opinions,and real world experiences (refered) regarding the Leatherwood ART II telescope. Is it junk, or a gem that's been overlooked? I've tried to grasp the MIL-dot, come up information from several sources but have failed to. The Leatherwood system seems so easy in comparision. Range the target, and fire. No complicated formula's, or memoring bullet impact at different ranges. Sorry if this question has been asked (and asked) before. Thank you in advance for your time and information.
Terry <>
St. Loius, MO., USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 18:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Finally - my turn for a stupid question.

Looking for a pair of binoculars. This is to be a backup set, my Liecas are the best thing since the wheel. Checked out the "in Review " page and found reference to a Zeiss Test Pattern, consisting of a bunch of lines in a square repeated at smaller and smaller sizes. Does anyone know where this can be downloaded or otherwise obtained, because it looks like just the thing I want to compare scopes, binoculars, and all sorts of other stuff.

The link to the review is below, with the pattern about 3/4 of the way down.

BTW - I bought a used pair of Nikon Attache 10x42 on Ebay for a paltry $125.


Karl <>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 18:35:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

There is a Redding deluxe die set in .308 on Consists of one F/L die, one seater (not a competition seater) and a neck sizing die. Current bid is $44. Excellent buy for a new reloader. For info only. Not affiliated with seller.
Bill971 <>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 20:39:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
Terry. re: the ART scopes. Dude, if they were better than the current generation of scopes using mildots, BDC's etc the military would still be using them. The ranging system on the ARTs used stadia lines that had to be matched up to given dimentions on a target. As you zoomed the scope to do this an external cam on the rear of the scope altered the angle of the scope (it had a pivot point at the front scope mount) whcih theoretically gave you the right elevation.

Problem's. a) If you didnt have an exact 18 inch reference point on the target to align the stadia lines on you are screwed and even if you have a good reference it was hard to get the stadia lines exactly right. b) You still have to mess with the elevation turret if you want to compensate for temperature, altitude, angle changes from zero, c) the external cam could get a grain of sand on it which would mess up your elevation. d) Do you want your scope pivoting in its mounts?

Solution. Learn to use mildots. Its a no brainer. The formula aint confusing! Object dimension (inches) x 27.7/mils = range to object in yards. There is a little device called a mildot master that makes it even easier. Mildots aren't just for ranging anymore! They give you holdoffs for wind, moving targets, multiple targets etc.

Even us grunt brained, high school edjumacated, knuckle draggers can handle mildots. Don't go back 20 years in technology unless you are a collector of ancient artifacts (sorry Snot Bro Rick).

Gooch <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 21:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


Man thanks. You were dead on the money with what I was wanting to know. And I appreciate it. I will buy the Leupold. Cause your right, like your friend I am to poor to buy over so I need to be as correct the first time around that I can. I did take your advice on the rifle. I purchased the Winchester Model 70 Stealth in .308. I broke down and put a proghorn on it just to shoot it and believe it or not it shoot a .375 inch group at a 100 yards! I can not shoot it that well so I had my frield from our rifle team see what he could get it to do. I am still a weak shot. I get lucky now and then with expert on the qual range with the M16 but shooting groups were never my strong point. I am just thankful there is experenced people around willing sharing information with us. We are very Lucky.

Again, Thanks,

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 21:41:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well as far as Leupold offering a 190grn dial for the M3's, I was told this afternoon by their tech department that it was talked about but there are no plans in the future to make one. I was actually thinking about putting one on my .300WM if they were going to offer it but now I guess I'll stick with the M1 or maybe another 6.5-20 LRT. Just thought I'd let you all know what I was told.
Rob <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:11:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

In respects to mil-dot ranging, If you are "math challenged" like myself and just don't like to figure out formulas, get the Mil-Dot Master. It makes ranging with mil-dots as easy as pie

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:24:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Terry and ART Scopes:

First, what Gooch said. MILDOTS constitute a simple, elegant solution for any number of marksmanship problems, from ranging to convienient "holds" in the wind, whatever.

Second, if you still feel the need to go with a "no math" rangefinding system, might I suggest a more efficent solution? IOR makes an uprated variant of the old Soviet PSO scope as used on the SVD with much better build and optical quality.I have one that I intend to mount on an M14 as a "spotters" / accurized battle rifle. It has a 30mm tube, tritium illumination and, best of all, a simpler, all internal rangefinding system. You use the Soviet - style "choke" rangefinder, dial in the range on the BDC and shoot. Within its limitations (4x magification being the most notable) I suspect it will easily give you a first-round hit probability on a par with a Leatherwood with considerbly better reliability under adverse conditions.

Ghillied Rifles:

One of the major issues mentioned with "ghillifying" a rifle in the distinct possibility of the camo impinging on the rifles barrel, causing all manner of point-of-impact problems.

Soo, how about this for a solution: fit the forend with a tubular, free-floating handguard? Its something of an old-fashioned solution but I think it has potential. Inlet the top of the stock alongside the barrel channel on each side, cut a piece of (1 1/4"?) aluminum pipe in half lengthwise and mount it over the barrel. Then you can Ghillie the forend and stock together with impunity and do the rest of the barrel seperatly with no threat of interferance. Its a thought...


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, Sc, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Terry and ART Scopes:

First, what Gooch said. MILDOTS constitute a simple, elegant solution for any number of marksmanship problems, from ranging to convienient "holds" in the wind, whatever.

Second, if you still feel the need to go with a "no math" rangefinding system, might I suggest a more efficent solution? IOR makes an uprated variant of the old Soviet PSO scope as used on the SVD with much better build and optical quality.I have one that I intend to mount on an M14 as a "spotters" / accurized battle rifle. It has a 30mm tube, tritium illumination and, best of all, a simpler, all internal rangefinding system. You use the Soviet - style "choke" rangefinder, dial in the range on the BDC and shoot. Within its limitations (4x magification being the most notable) I suspect it will easily give you a first-round hit probability on a par with a Leatherwood with considerbly better reliability under adverse conditions.

Ghillied Rifles:

One of the major issues mentioned with "ghillifying" a rifle in the distinct possibility of the camo impinging on the rifles barrel, causing all manner of point-of-impact problems.

Soo, how about this for a solution: fit the forend with a tubular, free-floating handguard? Its something of an old-fashioned solution but I think it has potential. Inlet the top of the stock alongside the barrel channel on each side, cut a piece of (1 1/4"?) aluminum pipe in half lengthwise and mount it over the barrel. Then you can Ghillie the forend and stock together with impunity and do the rest of the barrel seperatly with no threat of interferance. Its a thought...


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, Sc, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:39:46 (ZULU) (your host address:


The people you spoke to, are a bunch of flunkies that read from a script, and have now idea what they're really talking about. If the questions go above basic, they "wing it".
These are the same people that say the M118 and M118-LR round uses a 168 grain bullet!

If you want to shoot the 190 SMK in a 300... shoot it at 2950, and use the 300 cam. You will be very happy.

On the leatherwood scope...
What Gooch said!

Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:41:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I meant at the time I bought mine the 300RUM only came shiny and fluted. So the PSS now has the 300 ultra. hmmm maybe I can switch with a simple barrel replacement I am loking at anyway? I'll have to check this out.

Han <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 22:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kent: "grunt brained, high school edjumacated, knuckle draggers" I know. You aren't one.

'Lito's right. The good folks that answer the phone at Lupita central don't know their own products. Going from them to Garth was like going from a child trying to talk intelligently to the PhD down the hall. I'm not implying that he's the ONLY one at Lupita central that knows of which he speaks on an expert status, but I have yet to find another.

Hey, those ARTII scopes look real good when you take the rifle out of the case, on the trunk of your '72 Mustang BOSS, with the 8 track playing the Bee Gees ;-) As for me, I'll keep the present stuff!
Bravo <>
time to go do a touch of shooting, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 23:20:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

U.S. Optics Unertls:

$2500 for a scope. Yep, I paid my deposit for one, figured all that money I made from my TDY to Kuwait could be put to use. Won't be used for nothing for range work anyhow, I've got the LR M3 on the other rifle for normal use. When I talked to their CEO, Dr. Williams, about it a over a month ago he said they were working with the Marines on building up a new scope from scratch(to include a special scope for their M16's & M4's), possibly variable power, but the Marines haven't got a specific operational requirement written. I reckon they've used up alot of funding with their on-going A3 upgrade and the next step is to upgrade the sight. If this happens, probably in the next few years they'll hit the market a lot cheaper, and all of us "collectors of antiquities" will kick ourselves for what we paid for 'em.

Darren <>
USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 23:29:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Picked up an interesting used rifle. Along the way, someone used red Loctite on the scope bases. A lot of red Loctite. Any one have a way to get the dried puddles of red Loctite off of the receiver? It's a parkerized finish, if that makes any difference.
Jim <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 23:32:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo: Hey, you're making fun of my 8 track ( in quadrophonic stereo even!) I still have that damn thing. No tapes for it though. Bet you have some...(LOL).

Anybody catch my post reference the Birchwood Casey super strength bore scrubber? Is it safe to use? Wazzup wid dis stuff mang.

Leupold is king. Best customer service on the planet. Everytime I have e-mailed or called I always get an answer. Usually from Garth. The guy is always willing to take time to help. I hope they are monitoring this site...I for one would like to see a cam for the .300 Win Mag Round in use by the World's Finest Navy.
Cory <>
Raining Like A Bi......, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 23:46:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mildot master thread: I may be a knuckle dragger, but I'm a knuckle dragger who sits through grad-school math lectures for fun. And I STRONGLY recommend the Mildot master. Bruce solved it. Its done.
Next question.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 00:14:47 (ZULU) (your host address:


We have a prototype rifle in 6.5 X .284 Norma (6.5 X .284 Win.) and are looking for reloading data. The rifle is undergoing testing now and will be put through the paces at Blackwater Training Center in November.

The first run of factory ammo is all moly-coated 142 gr. Sierra BTHP Match bullets. I'm not a fan of moly, but the rifle is doing well in spite of it.

Load data would be appreciated. Story will appear in Precision Shooting/Tactical Shooter later in the year.

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe
Major, USMCR (Ret.)
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 00:21:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Snot Brother Gooch -- ANCIENT ARTIFACTS!!!! While I learned the craft initialy on the 03A4 with M84 scope, the change to M21 and ART I was very traumatic. We s**t canned them and used M70s and 700s. The ART scopes had all the problems mentions by Gooch and more! The dam thing will change zero while zooming because you are looking into a different part of the glass due to the zoom mechanism. The wear on the cam was worse at the high end where the ranging is most critical. Then the greatest injustice occured when they made an even worse scope called the ART II. I could go on but hell, leave it to the fact it was a LOOTNENT named Leatherwood that made the sucker. NOW there is a recommendation if I ever heard one! Oh yes Gooch the ART I measured 30 inches (both stadia) or 15 inches (one stadia and croass point on the reticle), ( you were flashing back to the 19 inches on the Redfield Accutrac thingy used on the 700 in SEA. Know that little gem to), while the ART II measured 1 meter on the heavy stadia line at either side. The I and II measured 30 and 60 inches horizontally. I personnally would not give 5 cents for either even as an ancient artifact.

One of the big problems with all scopes of that era, to include the PSO1, was that it required a known height object. Thus we all had to memorize things that were 30 inches tall, 15 inches tall, etc. The next problem with that thing used in the PSO 1 and others is that you can never see enough of a soldier to use it. The longer ranges, where again ranging is critical, the greatest error is induced due to the slight changes percieved in the flattening curve, while great range differences are occuring ballitically. Basically that is why the Leupold Ultra (Mark 4s to you youngens) M2 no longer exists. You zeroed it at 200 and there was a double stadia curve in the reticle. When you matched the shoulders to the double stadia you fired and missed anything over about 600. There were no leads, wind holds past a heavy hold whatever, nor hold overs. The reticle was so busy that the target could be lost in the clutter, and if the target was hiding, (imagine that in combat!) you could not see both shoulders. Oh well.

Got to go, have to give my Considerations for Use of snipers class tomorrow and I just got rained hard off the range today. The lightning is pretty until it strikes next to you.


PS Too tired to change the run on sentences, just accept the fact I was kicked out of college for failing English. ;-)

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 00:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

BREAKPOINT, your ISP is not working, your bouncing back when I try to post you, try me again from your end............Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 01:48:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
You ain't been readin' the Roster.
If you want to shoot the navy 190 300Win load, use the 300 WM cam, read the meters as yards, and you will be a happy camper... it is a 300WM-190/yards cam that is miss identified as a 220/meters cam. Enjoy!!
Birchwood casy stuff is good.

Try nail polish remover, and/or laquer thinner... won't hurt the parkerizing.


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 01:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Undude, Mr. Miller, guess you missed a partial post directed to you.

I asked what / which / one of your Tac slings would you recommend for a PSS.

Went to your site, and wasn't sure, so your recommendation please.

Thanks, Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 01:51:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Snot Bro Rick. Ahemmm.... Okay I was off on the ART stadias but it WAS 18" on the USMC Redfield.
Gooch <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 01:58:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gent's, my night to howl I reckin'.

Advice from you smith types, I had H S Precision send me a couple of mag pads, for the PSS stocks.

The standard REM is ok, as long as your shooting offhand/ or/ bench.

Prone, is another story, after a hundred or so rounds. Right on the ole' collar bone, as they tend to ride up.

Question is this, do you put the new pad on where it is flush with the BOTTOM of the stock, and glue there, come back and grind off excess from sides and top.

Or, do you try and set it flush at the TOP of the stock, and glue there, come back and grind as above???

I have never done one of these , I understand they can be a real bugger, however, the H S is already glued to the hard rubber/ rein backing pad, and , basically once glued grinding and flushing up the sides, top, or bottom should be all there is to it.

But, to my orig ques, top or bottom???

Thanks, Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 02:04:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Recoil Pad: I did a rem 700 pss awhile back where one of the mods was installing a new recoil pad. Here's the URL to the writeup that I did:

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 02:12:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two shoes. Check out We sell the sling that I helped Mike design for military snipers. No cross body sling capabilities, just a good shoooting sling.

Gooch <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 02:29:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dudes, I will be offline on about 17 Sept. Getting ready to move and I am letting my ISP expire. I should be back up around mid October. If you have to contact me post on here and someone will get me by phone. Not gone yet but will be soon.

Gooch <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 02:35:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch - What's an inch among friends? I do remember top of head to nipple line and read the paddle. Hold under or over for the 500 or 600 zero and let the sucker hold afew grains of American technology. Give me your new address so that I can hook up with you my next visit to Clinton land. :-)

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 02:42:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo: Stan, I think it would be a long hump for a two day match - cost $25 Cdn (what about a buck twenty five US). Sorry for the long wait - but I have about seven projects in the air making my roster time very limited - our range is being inspected to ensure it conforms to the new regs.
Importation of Firearms Non-Residents

2. (1) For the purposes of subparagraph 35(1)(a)(ii) of the Act, a non-resident shall declare, in person and in writing, a
firearm that he or she is importing.
Confirmation of Importation Non-Residents

3. A customs officer confirms a declaration and an authorization to transport under paragraph 35(1)(b) of the Act by
providing the non-resident with a confirmation number either in writing or orally.

I sent you an email of the actual matches
Kevin <>
Canada - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 03:04:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory: got a 8 track player, and a tape on the beer fridge. Not embarassed either!

Jim and Forever (red) Loctite: On large parts (like cranks) I use a torch. For scope bases I would advocate two strategies, one I got here, and one from Dad. Dad's is boil the part. Obviously, take EVERYTHING off, and just chunk it in a pot. When the water boils good and hard, the lesser red will soften enough to unscrew with a proper bit and minimal torque. The other was to use my heating treatment, but concentrated. A soldering iron. Trust me, you will smell it when the loctite is ready. After this though, I would replace the screws. Heat is the only solution I know for the greater reds, which are solvent resistant. My personal use is always the mil-spec blue for weapons, and it's never let me down (but I do make timing marks for ease of sleeping at night).

Well, the missus qualled tonight in proper Bravo family style. I suppose it was my poking fun at minimalized ammo, but she didn't use it. +P+ 9mm in the CZ AND Glock, "medium" 357's in the service Smith. Wound up dropping no points in slow fire, about a half dozen (points, not rounds) in rapid. She impressed everyone present and was requested to "hit that target" (for fun, not as part of the qual), which she did repetitively. It was about 12" round, at 150 yards (with the service Smith). Really well done, as she surprised even herself. In the spirit of things, Bubba even ran a some rounds out of the CZ. Those of you with young kids understand my jubilation.
Bravo <>
the banana republic, one family safer now, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 03:20:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey kids!!

Two Shoes,

You said:

"Gents, on the 175's, and vels at 2700, the problem with getting the REM barrels to shoot that vel, is not with the barrel.

It is because the chamber on the Rem's are NOT sammi min specs.
I have a PSS, in .08, it will run approx 50-65 fps slower, than my custom, SS Hart, same length bbl, but totally diff chmbr.( REM HAS LIABILITY ISSUE).""

I tend to disagree that the barrel is not the cause of the drop in velocity. The reason you are getting better velocities in your Hart bbl is most likely because the bore and groove dimensions are tighter than the Rem. bbl. The tighter your groove dimension is compared to the bullet diameter will inhibit those pesky gases from escaping ahead of the projectile. You lose gas, ya slow down. Plus, the bullet will form to the geometry of the rifling, so in a loose barrel, the bullet will try to expand and deform to the shape of the larger bore, hence bullet upset. A match barrel's groove diameter, say 30 caliber, is usually cut or formed to .3080-.3075"(I run 'em at .3078-.3079), which is the bullet diameter. A factory barrel by Remington, Winchester, Rug#@!, Savage, take your pick, will run .3085-3095. Big difference eh!! Ask Hart, I bet they run tighter than that!! Match or custom barrelmakers can and will always hold a tighter tolerance. On everything, chambers and threads and bore dimensions and even lengths!! That's why youse guys love us, you get whatcha want.

Later dudes, and you too undude

JR <>
somewheresclosetothereservationin, SD, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 05:52:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, are you sure about the use of the .300Wm cam with the 190? I looked at the ballistic charts for both and they aren't close at all. Granted the the Federal 190 load is only moving about 2900fps but the difference is as follows:

220 in yards 190 in yards
100 zero zero
200 -4.2 -2.9
300 -12.6 -10.7
400 -29.3 -24.1
500 -52.4 -43.9
600 -81.7 -71.2
700 -124.6 -106.9
800 -175.9 -152.4
900 -235.6 -209.4
1000 -314.2 -279.7

I don't think that 50fps would make up some of those differences. I put the 200grn in yards because that's where you would be hitting if you used the meter cam in yards. I just wanted to compare apples to apples. For anyone wondering, I got the 220grn info from Premier Reticles site and the 190 info from Mike Lau's book "The Military and Police Sniper". I hope they do make the 190 cam someday because I would love to get an M3 but if I'm not going to be able to use it to it's fullest I don't see a reason for getting it. Later.
Rob <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 10:59:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

For some reason I don't think it posted the 190grn info so here it is.

190 in yards
100 zero
200 -2.9
300 -10.7
400 -24.1
500 -43.9
600 -71.2
700 -106.9
800 -152.4
900 -209.4

Rob <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 11:02:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Subject: Laser Range Finder (Operational Application)

Each autumn I spend a few days in the Adirondaks hunting (FTX). Last year I found a good hide which overlooked a wide field of fire. I began to work on my range card when I realized that with only objects of unknown size to look at (trees, rocks and bushes) my Mil-Dot reticle lost most of it’s utility as a range finder. Then I thought, “no sweatty-da Dai-we” I got my trusty laser range finder with me. Using my laser range finder I completed an accurate range card.
The use of laser range finders in training seems to be neglected. I’ve heard that mere possession of one at SMTC can result in summary execution. I realize that lasers are active emitters (bad OPSEC juju) and that they can become a crutch. However, it would seem prudent to integrate them into training programs to teach their proper use (how to avoid detection etc.)
How are lasers integrated into the TO&E of military sniper teams? What does the SOP say about their use? What can be done to avoid detection of laser emissions? What can be done to detect the use of lasers by the opposition? How does the sniper protect his eyes from the opposition’s lasers? What can be done to make the field uniform less cooperative to reflecting laser light? If any of these questions fall into the “shooting through glass” category I’m sorry Gooch.
As a side note, I’ve found that a convenient way to carry my laser is in a USMC first aid pouch between the canteens in the back of my web gear. It fits like a glove. It won’t be there next weekend, Rod, I promise. ;-)

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 11:36:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Terrry and Recoil Pads:

When I used to do a lot of pads, I allways set them up to favor the top of the stock butt stock, allmost but not quite perfectly flush with the comb line. In fact, I have set them flush at the top and things have worked out well in that case, too. Most of the grinding took place at the toe. In fact, it looked a fair bit like the pic of Ken Hunter's PSS at:

except I might set it a bit lower. I always found it easier to grind away at the toe than the top.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 11:43:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'll drop you a line this evening. Thanks for the invite!!

OK, Hogs, I need some info, please:
Does anyone (Cory, I know you do, if you're on today) have a contact for a good range book? Cory had a real nice one that would fit into a cargo pocket and had a Cordura cover. I'd like to order one today and the TS I was going to order one through is at home. TIA. I ordered 500rds of Match from Georgia Arms for an incredible $177.50!! I will post how well they shoot once I get them and cycle a few. That's nearly as cheap as loading my own, if they're decent.

Math challenged my ass!! I've seen the flight tests!!! I had aspirations myself
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 13:09:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry Kush, hit the wrong button,

Anyway, I had thoughts of going MECEP, but got hurt Fast-Roaping. So now I'm a civy with a piss-poor attitude;}

Guys Thanks for all the info.

Semper Fi!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 13:11:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am shooting a 6.5x284 and using 53gs of H4831SC with the 142MKs and the 140AMAXs. This load will shoot the 142s into .3s and .4s at 100yds and the AMAXs into .5s but the AMAXs seem to shoot tighter on out to 1000yds for some reason. I found this to be true with my 260 also. I have also had really good luck with VV N-165 and RL-22, the RL-22 is the best velocity powder so far at 3100fps. The 4831 load pushes my 140s at 3000fps out of a 26" barrel using Norma brass.

I decided to stay with the 4831 because its not affected by temp. and thats hard to beat in this game. I will be doing some more testing with the VV N-165 and the 142s. I will check on my data and let you know more on Monday, hope this helps!!

Your arguing with the wrong man on the M3 dials, 'lito knows more about them than Lupeta does. You can't always go by "Book Ballistics" esp. Lau's. I use the M3 on all my tactical rifles and thats everyting from a 308 to a 6.5x284 and all I do is read the "MOA" scale and if I want a quick reference for range I shoot it at every 100yds out to 1000 and paint the top half black and then scribe in my own number over the correct MOA. It will never be the same on any given day due to changing conditions. Its just a reference so it doesn't need to be exact, that info should be in your log book and then you dial it to the correct MOA not the YARDAGE number. So don't let the "Cam" keep you from owning the best tactical scope on the market. Just my thoughts on it.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 13:54:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank you all for the replies regarding my quiry about the ART II, both on line and off. It's not so much the MIL dot formula (besides, you can make a cheat sheet, laminate it, and tape it to the rifle), as it is (for me!)come-up's. I get conused (mentally challenged) regarding the number of clicks required to go from one range to another.

One excellent suggestion was to get the Leupold Mark IV, M3 model with the appropriate ballistic cam. That's probably the route I'll go. I'm not a professional sharp shooter, guess that's obvious. Just another wanna be lurker.

God bless you and yours, as you care out your duties!


Terry <>
St. Louis, MO., USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 14:07:21 (ZULU) (your host address:


First, Lemme tell you, I pay "Pat" 50 cents, every time he says nice things about me ;)). It helps to make up for "the other guy";)

But... this cam issue is now a hot problem at Lupita... often, the data gets skewed by a tech, or just a secretary transfering the notes to paper, or the ad agency, who prints the catalogues.

The head engineer and have been on the phone over these things for so long, that we're on each others speed dial... and they admit they have a big problem.
If you speak to the head engineer, and tell him you're a frind of mine, you'll hear a "Oh shit" under his breath ;)

The flunkies at the phone lines, aren't privy to what's going on... they just read answers from a FAQ list.

There are a whole lot of things I don't know, but these little wheels have become a passion with me (cuz I LUV the scopes!), and the more I dig into them, the more I find.

The SniperCountry software won't permit posting charts, without skewing the data all over the place, so I'll send you an e-mail, with the data, and you can post your opinion of it, here on SC, after you have had a chance to look it over.

On the Lau charts... they're close, and give a rough guide, but don't take them to the bank!


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 15:20:02 (ZULU) (your host address:


I know the "piss-poor attitude" feeling when it comes to the med-screening runaround. I have just gone through the long and arduous process of getting a med-waiver from the MEPS doc. My knee was torqued out on a fast-rope insert also and the high and mighty doctor has sad me on hold for 2 months "evaluating" my knee.
On the range book, try London Bridge Trading

Later dude

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 15:58:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes N' Rob

By all means listen to bot Pat (The SoDak Windmaster)and 'Lito they really do know there stuff from lots of experience. Anybody that goes through eight or ten EIGHT POUND kegs of Varget is alright in my book!

Masters Rick and Gooch - Boogie Boys, aka "The Snot Bros" et al TLMAO welcome back guys. Your refreshing banter and tech stuff is what we Roster-Hogs wait to read.

Godspeed on the trip back to ARE-kansas Gooch. We'll miss ya in hillbilly land, ya definately made your mark here. The Sheep will speak you name in Awe and Reverence for decades Dude!

Chao-ski! (Uh oh its happening again Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah)

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 16:13:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

On slings, the only one to get(of mine) is the Military Model. It comes in both a M40A1 style (model2) and a PSS/M24 style (modle1). The main difference is the #2 has no sewn in swivels, it is designed for fixed swivels ala M40A1. My original design had elastic between two halves of buckles for stretch when in position. This is great but after Gooch/ Rick and several others used them a great deal in the field, they found no need for this feature.

Gooch suggested that I just use one continuous piece of nylon and a quick adjustable front strap. The one piece of nylon was perfect and has become the best way to do it. The quick adjustable front strap has too many problems in it would have to be made to each arm size to have it function at optimum levels (too big a pain and not worth it). The current Military models can be used across the body. I left the feature from the first slings of a loop system because it really comes in handy if you want to put the sling over a pack or secure it while climbing.

For the few guys that do not know it Gooch is the one that suggested nylon instead of leather. I was stuck in the leather is the way to go and Gooch shook me out of it. No way I would use leather again! Nylon is far better.

Pablito, I will try and shoot from 200 to 1000 yards with the 220 meters cam with 190's and see how close it comes out. Looking at things I believe you are right and I could be very happy.

JR, I agree with you completely its Remingtons bbls and chambers being out of spec. The Winchester get the velocity and so do yours and most every other Match Manufacture. By the way the 338 Lapua you built me is a 1/2MOA Weapon and with a 28" bbl velocity is way up there. I wont give the data on the net but the 300's go over 2800fps with ease in Lapua brand brass.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 16:24:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito: Ah, I did read that, sorry. Just did'nt sink into my thick skull right away. I looked back on the Roster and reread what you wrote about it. Duh.

Chuck: Gooch posted it today...go to and order the Sniper Data Log staight from the horse....tell Hugo I said hello.
Cory <>
Painama, Fl., USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 17:31:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin of the North: Sir, I applaud you. When it's possible for my mail to be delivered to the governors residence in Havana, I will offer you the national course directors postition in a heartbeat. I'm thinking that I won't make it for this go-around, as I don't own a shotgun, or suitable replacement, and I don't want to make a fool of myself trying to use a pistol at too great of distance. Day one sounds like a complete and TOTAL blast. Day 2 is more what I'm used to ;-) If it was Glock, M-25 and CAR, I'd be packing. If you promise to make it an annual event (and not laugh at my scattergun shooting), I'll buy a smooth bore for next year. Any of you guys out there with capabilities, I'd highly suggest heading to this one. It sounds as if it'll be a party to remember!
Bravo <>
got my eye on beachfront property in Cuba, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 17:39:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
Chuck: oooppps sorry, it's, Note the r and the g are transposed...I'll blame it on my pain medication.
Cory <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 17:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
I know this has been covered before, but I just spent all the grocery money on my new rifle and would love to have some expert opinion on the break in process.. There seems to be alot of controversy about it.. what are your thoughts? Thanks

An Apache pilot who loves his grunts!
JeffA <>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 18:12:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone have any experience or opinion on the stainless lower receivers that DPMS is selling for AR15s? All the upper receivers I know of are made from aluminum and I was wodering if there would be problems mating the two materials together ie. different rates of expansion as they heat up; galling of the aluminum from any shifting against the stainless steel from vibration etc. Any thoughts?

Gerry <>
Newberg, OR, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 18:29:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

I went to tgrt and was a little confused!!! It's some Turkish web sight?!! I thought you were messing with me!! I really liked your range data book and want to get one myself. I still have your TS, would you like me to put them on UPS for you? I can hold onto them 'til our next shoot. Either option is no problem for me.

You're not forgetting 'bout me being your Minister of Cigars are you, Governor?

I'm glad your knee turned out OK. I would have liked to have called you in on an airstrike in your FA-18!!!

Semper Fi,
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 18:39:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

JeffA: I've not had difficulties "breaking in" new barrels. Seems that about 10 rounds or so did it. Now that they're broke in, I'm working on wearing 'em out.
Bravo <>
a guy who likes to ride IN the slicks, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 18:40:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks for the kind words, you old "Road Dog", but I take a back seat to the master, "'lito", sometimes I think he is a computer!! Wish I could make the SC shoot but maybe one of these years when I get done with the wifes trips back and forth to Mayo I'll be able to get out there and meet everyone. You guys shoot hard and have a cold one for me and tell Bruce R. I said "Hi".
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 19:13:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo...I want to be Minister of Propagana for you. Cigarettes are good for you....Beer Commercials on TV are good for Business. Nude Beaches are A-okay. We could make a fortune with casinos, Beach Resorts, etc.

Chuck, Check it again, I gave it to you wrong...its TRGT in lowercase I got the R and the G transposed in the last message.
Cory <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 19:37:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin...Laser rangefinders at SMTC....A Zen Koan for you.......If you don't get caught, is it cheating?

I once got a class schedule from SMTC that said something about "cheating being 100% of your grade." You want to do well, don't you??

A variation on my last zen exercise....If you win, is it cheating? You have to ask yourself, just how big are my cajones?

And I promise, if you do get caught, Rod won't do anything to you. Nothing, Nada, Zip. (I'm saying this with a straight face too!)

He who dares...wins.

c'mon Kevin, give it a try, it won't hurt you.
Cory <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 19:54:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


Shame on you... leading on a fellow Rosterfarian on like that.
Bring a laser to Storm, and see nothing left but burnt, smokin' shoe prints where you once stood :((


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 20:04:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory - laser rangefinder @ storm:

I think I'd rather be the midtown or slagpile target than get caught using a laser range finder up @ storm - especially during a competition.

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 20:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pat, Rick, ReteR, MicTac, and maybe one or two more:

A while back, I axed about point blank range, holding off with mildots and some other stuff to shoot different distances and not fiddle with the scope. Thanks to you for your responses. It came in handy, and was lots of fun thinking about it and testing it out , and doing it in a match. It was way stimulating when combined with the increased difficulty of tahe new match format. Not that I did all that well, but, damn, it was fun !!!

I've done this way two whole times now, and both times, I skipped up to the R.O. with adrenalin spurting out of both ears, and insisted we keep doing these. They seem to be more tactical-er than other formats.
Thanks again, gentlemen, for your wisdom and help.

I got some TAC powder ( by Ramshot ), last Sunday at a match. Supposed to be good for .308 loads. Has any one tried any of this, yet?

Also, I've been shooting moly coated bullets exclusively in my rifles pretty much the whole of my wanna-be tactical shooter "career". Lately, I've thought about shooting non-molyed. No particular pressing reason other than just to see. I've gotten used to the cleaning procedures, and the bullet behaviors with molyed so, I figure that those aspects will be different. Any comments yea or nay will be appreciated. I don't think moly improves accuracy, per se, or increases barrell life. I do think it makes cleaning a bit easier.

Guess I'm stirring a pot of stale stew with this, but, still, it's sort of an "issue" with me these days. Anyway...

Good to see familiar names, and catch up a little...

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 22:10:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys, thanks for the tips on the Red Loctite/Kryptonite business. Acetone didn't work, nor did a soldering iron. Next? It's just a couple of small spots, in fact, the scope bases will cover them. I'd like to get it off if I can, though. By the way, the rifle is an old Police model Remington 700. Wood stock, parkerized,... I was a gun show with a friend, he spotted it, etc... It looks like an M40, with the exception of no clip slot, and no sight holes.
Jim <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 22:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
I'm in the market for a new sniping weapon, and I am currently considering a custom rifle from Autauga in 308, if anyone has any recommendations or gripes aout this company feel free to drop me a line, I've always gotten good info from the people here... So far I've looked at Mcmillan, and AI, but found them to be to highly priced...Currently I'm using a Rem700sendero, and find it to be excellent, but feel that it is time to move up to a custom...Any info let me know....Thank You...
Bruce K Hudgens <>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 22:56:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Laugh of Night:

Mrs. peteR came down in the dungeon as I was putting some finishing touches on my Ghille jacket, I asked her what she thought of my masterpiece (well to me it is)

Reply: "It looks like the broccolli that the kids spit out on their plates!"

Ahhhh married life with children..........

Have a Great weekend!

GETTING CCCCOLD CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 23:04:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

It's nice to hear that some folks are still interested in Billy
Dixon and his Long Shot at Adobe Walls.
Remember, though, that there are two editions of his autobiography. The first was printed in 1911, just after he died.
Here he described the Long Shot as "something over 1200 yards..".
And with very decent modesty he explained that he was shooting not at one particular indian, but at a whole mounted patrol of twenty of them, and he didn't claim to have hit exactly the one he drew bead on.
The later figure of 1538 yards appeared in the second edition
after twelve years. Most scholars don't bother to compare the two
versions, but I went to some trouble to figure out why local politicians and their house-broken historians put the big brag in this fine gentleman's mouth.
It took a long time, but I got the story into print in the March
'92 True West. American Sharps Shooters reprinted it in Jan '95, and I'd be pleased and proud if any of you can add to the discussion.
Let's try to match reality, not inflate legend.
Leon Day

Leon Day <>
Oakland, CA, USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 23:47:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

AR15 sights?
Any helpful tips on your experience with, Elcan, Aimpoint or ACOG?
Richard Stark <>
NO Gun Rights, California, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 00:23:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Richard Stark:

AR sights? close in work? Aimpoint Comp-M! I have nothing but excellent results using one on my AR. It isn't magnified, but the features, functionality, and reliability so far have been excellent. Using it seems like it isn't even there. Even without magnification, it lets me shoot very, very accurately and quickly out to 250 yards with little thought of it even being there.

For longer ranges, something with magnification such as an ACOG will be needed, and that is based on what range you intend to shoot at.
Hank <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 00:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

PeteR, that broccolli description is great. Mine looks like that too 'cept the broccolli is a little dried up on the edges.

Talked with Rod Ryan today, he's getting squared away for the match. I dropped off some give-away (raffle) goodies, a local gun shop donated them. Emerson knife, MOD knife and two drag bags.

He's got a couple of Swedes at the school, they're supposedly pretty hot, they'll be staying for the match.

Got my new Tac-Ord rifle yesterday, it's a M24 look alike in 7.62 Nato. 24 Inch .900 muzzle PacNor barrel, REM 700 Long Action 'A' series with the rear sight block screws, H-S Precision ALOP stock. Jamie put a front sight block on so I'm bound to get a set of Redfield sights for front and rear. Jim worked the trigger, great job...

Stuck a Leupold M3LR on with a Badger 20MOA base and a set of Max 50 Badger rings.

This will be my SMTC Sniper match rifle. Got 21 rounds through it, 7 yesterday and 14 today, I'm thinking it'll be a good shooter.

Haven't painted it yet, maybe I'll take it in the black!

Looking forward to seeing you folks again this year.

Dave "Doc" King

David L. King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 01:11:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hank: is that aimpoint a paralax free type? I was kicking around a straight optical sight for the CAR, but worried about the lack of proper cheek weld for a sight that high. Any good info would be appreciated.

Jim: my appologies. For some reason I thought you had forever loctite on screws you wanted removed. The heat works great for getting the screws out, but does leave residue behind. If the nasty is in a screw hole, use a chase. If it's anywhere else, hate to tell you, but abbraision is the only cure I've found. 5X steel wool or a bronze brush would be my try for taking off the residual without taking off finish, but somehow I doubt it will work. Fine sandpaper does, but obviously this isn't good on ANY finish.

Cory: resorts, casinos, busy tourist resorts, hmmmm.... sounds like pre-castro Cuba! I'm telling you guys, it's somewhere we could be proud to call home. The only problem is the current administration, and that is "solvable". It'll take more than three Marines with a knack for beer, cigars, and troublemaking though.
Bravo <>
Think Jimmy Buffet would play a free Havana?, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 01:44:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank You's.............

Ken - on the 700 PSS pad site

CDC-on the MK4M1 black outs, GOTCHA!

Gooch- 10/4, 0n the trgt site, and sling

Lito'- The CAM man, unscrambling the scrambled!

Undude- sling model numbers( no wrong guess NOW)

JR / Lito'- barrels, not chambers on velocity, learn something new every day, or you must be DEAD, esp on here.

Tom S- tips on recoil pad installation

Appreciate all you guy's helping me out, things you learn here, in one day would take weeks in books( IF you could find it!)................Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 01:54:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Is your CAR a flat top of fixed upper? If it is a regular upper, forget any optical sight mounted on the carry handle. You are correct, the cheek weld will be dismal.
All is not lost however....if you have a fixed upper, you can buy a RAS/RIS type forearm and mount the aimpoint or reflex on the handguard....kind of 'scout' style. This will work well. Heck, you can even use the C-more scout sight for even less money and be happy with that. It's not a good as the Aimpoint or Reflex, but it does work pretty well.
If you have the flattop, buy an Aimpoint (I Love mine) and throw away the mount that comes with it. Get a GG&G rail and GG&G Aimpoint ring and you will be very satisfied. Neato thing about the GG&G is that it carries an extra battery in the mount and it is THE setup for night vision on a AR rifle.

Mictac <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 02:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank you George Gardner at G.A. Precision.
Got out to shoot my long awaited G.A. rifle today.
George fixed me up real good. Stainless 700 with a Lilja
#7 taper, 1 in 8 twist in 6/284 with JP brake. McMillan
Anshutz prone stock fully adj. and a rail, Shillen trigger,
Warne mounts and rings hold Leupolds 6.5X20 LR side focus.
All I had to load was Berger and Fowler BR bullets
66-68g and let them go at 3400 fps.
Truely this rifle has NO recoil! I don't mean little
recoil, NONE! My first group of three was .350 or so. My
first 10 shot group was .550. Hope to get some proper VLD
bullets soon to try. This was prone with a bipod and a rear
A shoulder injury requires low recoil for me to shoot
at all anymore. Screemin' job George!

Thanks again, Tim Meyers in Kalif.
T.Meyers <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 02:48:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mictac: yup, it's a standard A2 upper. Thought about the ARMS #39A2 with the optic mounted over the handguard, but have a few problems with the concept. Maybe I don't know enough yet. Until I try one, I'm worried that iron sight use with it would be restricted like with a BPT on a M-14 with no scope attached. Too much "looking through a trough". And I don't know about adding extra weight. Cutting off one of the aperatures doesn't bother me (flip up the remaining one as a stand-by, fold it down for optic use) and have the optic mounted directly in the line of iron sight, but then would the front sight and base mess with the sight picture? Now you know why it doesn't wear anything yet ;-) If you've tried this, or something like it, I'd sure like to learn!
Bravo <>
Thinking of competitions and Canadian beer, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 03:19:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo...THREE Marines could take Havana? That means one drunk Sailor could do it accident. As someone on the roster is fond of saying, HA! Would you settle for one lame Sailor and one Marine?

C'mon Chuck, you can spot for me, we'll have it all done in two days, well, three if we stop for a beer, a cigar, and a trip to visit the ladies. Of course all of that will be legal when Gov'nor...uumm, El Presidente Bravo takes over.
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 04:09:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello again:


300's @ 2800fps?? not bad. Hey, when you get a few rounds thru there, if you have access to a borescope, check out the leade, I'd like to know how much wear and tear these Lapua's take. I mentioned Winchester barrels as being loose, well I'd better be careful with that since I have made a many a Sharpshooter for USRA, as well as the Ultimate classics, and all of their take down barrels. So fellas, Winchester barrels kick ass, they're tighter than a frogs....... well I won't go there!!!!!!!!! heheh

One more thing Mike, I saw yer mug on the NRA infomercial during my nightly insomnia attack. Ya stole the show, undude!!!


JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 04:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo...I have an ARMS #38EX on my Bushmaster E2S and An Aimpoint XD comp M. I like the arangement alot. The #38EX has a flip up sight the rear. I shoot the whole kit and caboodle as one, rear sight up. The front sight is in the field of view and the red dot is right on top of the front post. Works great for me. I'm comfortable with the cheek weld.

To me, if the Aimpoint is on top of the handle, then it is too high. with the flat top and the ARMS #38EX on top, it is just right. Very reflexive to use. I have a ACOG reflex sight for it too, which is cool, but I find the dot not bright enough in full sunlight. I do like the "no batteries" feature of the reflex, but my weak eyes just can't find the dot, (or triangle as it is,) fast enough. Plus the Aimpoint and the #38EX allow mounting a small night vision device behind it.

Chuck handled my AR, he can tell you if he liked the arrangement or not.

Remember, I just want a ministry position in the new Gubment. No not a "missionary" position, something cool like head lifeguard of an all female nude beach, or "Brothel House Quality Inspector".

Cory <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 04:33:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

LR M3 dials:
Dudes, if you are having a fit about your magic elevation dials being "off," just call up Leupold and order the blank one. I stopped by there on the way home from work today, nice people, nice place. The blank dial is marked in minutes around the side, just like the issued ones, and the top says "1 CLICK = 1 MIN" just like the issue ones, and that's all. No caliber marking, no load settings, no "X 100 YD" or anything else. I know, you can just paint over one of your existing dials, but this forces you to actually use your data book and apply your settings for real. I tried the routine of painting over the elevation settings every time I went out, 'cause the temperature was different, or the elevation, or something; I found I was ignoring the markings anyways and looking up the data every time. As Pat said earlier, don't let the "Cam" keep you from owning the best tactical scope on the market. The blank cost me a little over $30 and I consider it cheap peace of mind for us perfectionist types who just can't have a screwy dial with wrong settings on it. Kinda puts you in the proper mindset to think of the scope as good for any load, any conditions, as long as you've done your homework and know your rifle and your loads. Think of it as a 'Tactical M1' with 1 minute clicks and no "how many revolutions have I made?" errors. Also, FYI, I talked to Garth there at Leupold and he said that the dials for the LR M3 are being reworked, but it is a ways off. He asked where I heard that rumor from, I said "Paul Coburn" and he said "Oh.........yeah........OK." LOL! Keep up the heat on those guys 'Lito, I think it's working!!!

You're on TV in Oregon now, too. Too bad that info-mercial is on at 0130 on weeknights. The whole show was very well done, I wish they'd show it during the day. I plan on taping it and showing some friends who ask how I feel about gun control and personal freedoms since they know I am an avid shooter. Everybody do your part on and off the range to preserve our rich shooting and hunting heritage here in the US of A.

Well off to the range.

Brian <>
OR, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 06:16:33 (ZULU) (your host address:


On the question about the LRF at the SMTC rendezvous. God have mercy on your soul if you get caught with it on Rods property before, during or after the competition. Cheating during the competition WILL get your ass tossed from the competition and probably fed to Yogi (retired K9). Dont try and get cute while there, you'll get hammered. No joke guys.

Gooch <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 06:16:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dot sight optic for the AR15.

I've been using the Aimpoint Comp ML XD on a Colt flat top, and prefer it to others I have tried. This is the non-night vision model. It has a 3 MOA dot with 10 intensity settings. If you buy one make sure it's the XD. The XD provides longer battery life. Also, the Comp M model is the same M68 sight used by the military.

I have it mounted on a GG&G rail with their ring and flip up rear aperture. The ring is built like a tank, much better quality than the stock Aimpoint ring. This combination puts the red dot on the tip of the front sight when they have the same zero (why wouldn't they ?). You do see the front sight through the Aimpoint and you should, you're concentrating on the red dot AKA your "new front sight" and it is right on the iron front sight. Works great.

The only thing I would change would be the flip up rear. It seems a bit fragile. Even so, I would have much rather gone with a fixed rear sight such as made by Yankee Hill or DPMS. With a fixed sight, it's always there, no need to flip anything and the dot is very apparent. If you forget to turn the sight on or the battery dies (that dang switch seems to have a mind of its' own) the rear sight is already engaged. When presenting the weapon from the African carry position the power/intensity knob seemed to rub on my hip and move. It varied intensity and turned itself off/on at will. If it's off and the rear sight was flipped down and you come to the ready all you have is a very large Aimpoint ghost ring. I rolled an o-ring over the knob to the pivot point to increase friction and it seemed to help. Someone needs to invent a screw-on battery cap with pressure switch for this sight, like the pig tail pressure switch on the SureFire weapon mounted lights.

The longer GG&G rail would allow the mounting of NVD, but in this case I think you would want the rear sight out of the way.

As to being parallax free, that is how it is advertised, I've heard rumors that it isn't exactly parallax free. Testing this theory I moved my head so the red dot was just visible in the left side of the optic and POI = POA at 25 yards (not really, I have it zeroed 1.25" low at 25, but you get the idea, it hit where I wanted it to).
For right handed shooters, if you rotate the sight left so the windage adjustment is opposite from what you would see on a optical rifle scope you can manipulate the on/off knob with your weak hand without reaching over the top. the sight is designed to be mounted either way.

The Reflex is a great sight, but requires filters to prevent wash out, and when shooting from a dark position such as inside a room to a bright sunlit target the dot or triangle is also washed out. The Reflex does not use batteries which is good. It has a fiber optic light for bright light conditions and a tritium lamp for dark. If the fiber optic light sensor gets covered, e.g. mud, the dot will not be bright enough in the day light. The ones I have seen have the 6.5 MOA and 4 MOA dots.

The Colt C-More seemed a little flimsy with the adjustment system. It seems to be "sprung" with a plastic piece that you screw down or up for ELEV. It's been a year since I've looked at one but that was enough to convince me to go with a more sturdy system. It had a 6 MOA dot, possibly others, I did not check.

It depends on the planned use of the weapon. Shooting bowling pins or plates any of the three would work, crawling through the mud the Aimpoint wins. Even with the front lens covered with mud or the lens cap closed you can use it as an occluded sight.

The only other sight I would want over the Aimpoint would be the Elbit Falcon, 1 MOA dot, battery operated, something like 20,000(?) hours on battery, auto intensity adjust with respect to ambient light, and I think you can pound in tent stakes with them. Sadly, no longer manufactured or imported.

I hope this might help someone, I'd like to be able to pay you back for all the great advice I have received on this site.

That's my 0.2, based on the length I guess it's $1.02, sorry.

Jim <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 09:38:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo-you will see the front sight post when using any of the red dot sights. As to the trough, well you look through it for your iron sight picture ya know.....

Maybe the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, is to change the upper reciever to a flat top. You can buy them for about the same price as the front handguard mount and a good smith could install it in about...half an hour. Thgen you could switch back and forth as desired.
Or you can have your smith cut off the loop and put on a weaver rail.

I may be able to scrape up a Cmore scout for you to try out. Want to check it out? Cost you some infamous bravo brew for a rental fee....
Let me know-

Mictac <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 09:42:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

GOOCH...For the record, I was just having some fun with Kevin...I DO NOT advocate cheating at ANY competition. You should read my post as filled with extreme sarcasm.
Cory <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 12:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ken, Lito...I'd rather throw myself in poison ivy, or jump into Rods dog kennel with his G'shep, than get caught with a LRF at Storm. I was just entertaining myself. I am properly chastised. (he he he heh.)

The smallest things give me my jollies...I thought you guys would get a good laugh from my little ditty. Gooch seemed to take me seriously.

Hell, I'm still trying to get Bravo to pack up all his beer and come to Florida and shoot with us. I don't want to talk too bad about him, 'cause he did a very nice favor for me, ( but I think he is just afraid of his wife.) ooo I feel evil today, must be the EAS Myoplex shake I just drank.
Cory <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 12:24:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh one more thing....BRAVO: If you would like I will loan you my Aimpoint Comp M for you to examine and try on your AR. It will work on the handle with an inexpensive mount, I just think it works best on the GG&G or ARMS mount. If you get the extended ARMS mount it allows you to mount a small ITT or similar NVD behind it. Let me know.

Gotta go watch my kids play Futbol.......
Cory <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 12:34:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes: After you use that technique (of ajusting the M1 turret) for a while, you should tell us what you think of it. It seems to work fine for me, but I would be interested in wheter of not you 'get lost'.

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 13:40:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'M BACK - from arthroscopic surgery on the knee. I appear to be the same height on both sides so apparently nothing was removed what shouldn't be removed! Just had some Vicodin for breakfast - good stuff. Heh, heh, heh, heh!

Congratulations to Mrs Bravo on her new CCW - way to go!

On your AR optics questions, since you have the standard handle upper, an Aimpoint XD/M scope on an ARMS #39 mount is the way to go. The #39 puts the scope forward and low over the handguards. The sight picture is just like using the irons and if the battery dies nothing changes - same sight picture!

This is what I use on my R6551 and it is just the ticket out to 200-250 yards. Beyond that, I would use my Rem700. I looked at the different ACOG models, standard and compact, but they require mounting on top of the handle and you have to bring a ladder along to get the proper cheek weld. Also, they (ACOG) just didn't "look" right on the AR to me.

On parallax, basically, whatever the red dot is on, is what you will hit. There is no real need to even have the dot "centered" in the glass.

Also, make sure that you get the "new" version of the #39 mount. This is the one with the built-in standard upper rail. It doesn't hurt to have the mounting availability there. Most dealers don't carry the new version yet but you can always get it through ARMS.

Available Ministerial Positions:
On your way south through Florida, please stop by and pick me up as I am not to far from your final destination. The kids are old enough to move out on their own and Mrs Moe isn't in the picture anymore. This would also be a good time to replenish any necessary supplies.

Since all of the prime "Minister of" positions have been spoken for by "those guys up north," I would like to be considered for the "Minister of Interpreting Your Founding Documents Correctly" position. Under my able leadership, and with a few good assistants, you won't have to be concerned about running into the $hit we're going through here in the good ol' USA.

Also, I want to be the "Minister of Medicinal Drugs." Thank you very much.

Moe - time to lay down again!
Moe Mensale <>
Itsgonnarainagaintoday, FL, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 14:48:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Andy and I are loading up, taping down and checking for rattles. We've got our gear pretty well ready for next weekend and leaving behind the kitchen sink our loads are still pretty heavy.

I realize that what is taken on a mission always depends on the mission, terrain, weather and situation. However.............

What's the current load carried by military snipers look like?

How much does it weigh and how is it packed and carried?

What is a sustainable crosscountry travel rate under that kind of load?

A 72 hr. mission load could easily go over 100 lbs. How far are you going to carry that before you become exhausted?

Is there anybody out there willing to share a sniper Tac-SOP?


Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 15:15:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe... (go take your pills ;)

A.R.M.S. won't sell direct. They used to be sold by MWG, but no more... now Mounts Plus is the direct seller, and since they are new, all their stock is fresh up. Go to...

your Ol' lady now has a CCW... you're in deep Doo-doo!


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 15:29:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC, I STAY lost!!!!!!!!!!!

But I got your idea, and I don't see why that shouldn't make things a lot more
simple............thanks again, Two Shoes.
wandering aimlessly in the State of Tejas
Terry <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 16:10:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: I got the idea that mountsplus was in the same building as MWG. Mostly 'cause I bought
another ARMS #18 (hey, you can't have too many can you?) when the change was happening and
was told that I couldn't get them from MWG anymore (who I dialed) and was transferred to
mountsplus. In either case, it seems that the public (me included) has spoken and Dick Swan was
listening. When he told me that they were making a production run, I told him that they ought to
keep the #18's in production. Well, Walt at Fulton Armory says that now, because of the BPT
scarcity, they're removing the BPT from their price list, but putting ARMS on permanently as they
were told the supply was stable!

And Mictac, Cory, Moe, and Jim: thanks for the AR clue, now to figger out what I'm gonna do with
it. The easiest thing might to be get a flat top upper, but I just donno. As for sighting through a
trench, yeah, I do anyway now, but it's not such an enclosed trench. Doesn't seem to bother my
peripherial vision. I don't know, maybe it's what I'm used to. I know when the BPT was on there
though, it was giving me "sighting claustrophobia". Maybe it has something to do with the wall
thickness of the trough and how it plays with peripherial vision? Thanks for the optics loaner
offers, but I'm at square one now, I think optics choice would be square three or so. But any time
you guys are in the same state as myself, there's plenty of cold Bravo Brew with your name on it.

Moe: good to see you back, vicodin: Not just for breakfast anymore ;-) They say that hindsight is
20/20, so the Constitution would be the same Constitution (limited to the Bill of Rights) as the
US, but with a tad more clarification, and possibly a slight bit of stipulation. Instead of having
congress vote for it's own pay raises (which, if you average them over the entire history of
congress, they've voted themselves a pay raise an average of 13 times per year), it would be tied
to the median income of their area of representation. Same for the president!
Bravo <>
the slip sliding away banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000
at 17:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gerr, on SS Ar lowers from DPMS. To quote a smith "blank, Blankedy Blank" I watched a smith
work on one of these and I swear they just about give a chunk of metal for you to work with. Every
hole was undersized, nothing fit or lined up and when it was all said and done he ended up with an
ASR that weighed a pound or so more and that was it. Stick to Aluminum. This is a no wear part so
other than the weight you get only headaches.

CDC, if you looked at my M1 MK4 you would have seen the same thing/blacked out but that does
not keep you from turning to far in either direction, when its dark. I have been thinking (be
scarred) that a stop could be put into the scope/ala a clamp, that would keep you from going
below your 100 yard zero once you set it that would make it easy to count clicks on at night. No
need to black anything out then.

Pablito, I ran the 300 Win 190 figures and I beleive you are the man. Tracks closer than clingons
on an Knat, out to a 1000 yards and with a head hold at 1100 and 1200 you, as you said, will hit
the body. They ought to just remark the cam for 190's and dump the 220 stuff as very few use
that bullet.

Tim, are you telling us that you wont shoot that little 22 at 1000 yards anymore? I wish I never
told you about George.LOL

Mike any deal that gets you Bravo Brew is a good deal.

Bravo, whats wrong with iron sites anymore? I like the Trigicon Reflex for CQB, but I am thinking
of the Mil version of the aimpoint with an ITT third generation behind it. Now if I can just think of
how to get the cash for one set up.

JR, how about after all the tests I send it back to you for a week, so you can check it out? Only a
week though because I dont know how I lived without this rifle before.

So everyone has seen that NRA thing but me.\
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 17:40:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


That may be the case... that MWG, seperated the retail, from manufacturing... it's often done.
This winter I'm putting new (ARMS) mounts on the M21. I have an original SA model #1 mount that
I got, just to be able to shoot it, until ARMS got caught up with production.

It's probably the worlds only SA model #1 mount that works... I've been wishing it would fail, cuz
it's a POS, but the damn thing won't quit, so I'm bitting the bullet, and upgrading anyway.

I still haven't gotten instructions to the 1800 yd shoot, so I may be around this weekend...
finished the rings. I now have a set of Bager rings, with 70 moa of forward tilt in them... add that
to a 20 moa tilt in the bases... and I'm good to shoot from 50 to 2000 yards on the same
scope... now I need 1800 yards :((


Pablito <>
Longing for a long range to shoot in, in the crowded part of the, USA - Saturday, September 16,
2000 at 17:41:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have to second the Lito is the man. After seeing the numbers on the 190's I have no hesitiations,
except maybe the money at this exact moment;),about buying the Mark 4 M3. I will probably have
to wait till income tax comes back but when it does it will be sitting on my .300WM. Thanks Lito.
Rob <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 18:56:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

I wanted to complement Geoge Gardner of G.A. Precision on another fine rifle. I sent him the action and stock and he had it returned to me in less than a month! We got lucky and bought a Lilja .223 3-groove barrel with a 1 in8" twist that was in stock.
The gun is a Rem 700 that he trued/lapped, etc and fit the 26' Fluted heavy varmint taper barrel to. he also installed a Jewel trigger and set it to 1 pound for me. This was Marine tex bedded in a McMillan Woodland cam M40A1 stock with decelrator pad and Badger steel floorplate.
All metal is finished in OD green teflon finish that matches the stock's green colors really well.
I mounted a Nightforce 5.5-22x NXS in badger rings/bases for testing and shot about 60 rounds today during break-in.

The groups should be visable at the link below or here:

The gun was shooting great with the first loads I tried and easily groups in .2's and they should tighten up after tuning more.

If your looking for a great gun and a good turnaround time you might want to try George. I have bought a few guns from bigger shops that weren't as sweet to shoot. I'm thankful for the DR that I learned about george here last year. Thanks for letting me gloat to someone about my new toy.
Larry in PA <>
Cool and sunny, PA, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 21:45:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for the goof: My email is wrong in my above post.. It is ""

I don't know where the 2 came from in my email.
Larry in PA <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 21:47:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello everyone,
Just got back from shooting with Eric. We had a blast. Open field shooting, out to 400yds. I had trouble with my turrets and didn't hit squat at 400, but Eric put a nice 4 rd group into a 30lb. freon keg!! Still waiting on my Match rounds from Ga. Arms, will post how well they shoot once I get them.

I'd spot for you anytime, bro!! Especially for a Corona Gorda or a Belicosa. I'll vouch for your AR set up. It sure is nice!!!

What about a half dozen Marines and 2 Sailors? I think we could do it!!

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 21:50:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike Miller: A stop? Of course! You're a genius.

How's the design for the rifle scope/action cover coming?

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 22:40:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck: I didn't have doubts about Cory's AR, but a half dozen Soldiers and a couple of Sailors I do question. I recall watching something on 20/20 or 60 min, one of those anyway, about a group out of Miami that ran to Cuba in a cigarette boat quite often with the goal of guerella action against castro. They actually took one of the reporter dudes, and he filmed the nature walk the patrol took. If it was QED, these folks would be inviting us for tea in the Havana governor-generals office. I'm not blowing it off, but we need a batallion, not patrols.

Larry: Good to see George is still pumping them out. As I told the wife, "yup, it's a George rifle all right". Now the big question: why 223? If it's the answer, gotta be an odd problem.

'Lito: you're the man, and even better than I thought. Anyone that can make a stinky piece like a SA first gen mount work is a mount master! You will love the ARMS, it's a no-brainer. Let me know when you want the custom spanner for the front pad. And just out of curiousity, how much forward tilt can you get before the optics get blurry from too much barrel in the line of sight?

Mike: it's not that anything is "wrong" with iron sights, that's all I ever had, and thought I was cool at the time. I just wonder why all the super troops have the red dot stuff. And you know me, if theres anything to experiment with, I only have one way to learn. I guess the best part of optics is that everything is in the same focal plane, and I like that as opposed to shooting at cammoed fuzzies. Of course, being a 223, it's a CLOSE quarters weapon.
Bravo <>
gonna look up Cuban military strength in Janes, USA - Saturday, September 16, 2000 at 23:30:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

You know, I hate it when that happens. I ordered the M21 (they were special order then, I don't know about now!)... I waited for 5 months.
I spoke to Dick Swan, about the ARMS, and at the time, they were all going to Isreal, but he would see what he could do in a month or two.

So I got the shitty little Gen 1 mount (with ONE screw), cuz it was $50, and I just wanted to shoot the damn gun I had waited so long for. I figured it would shoot it self loose in a few weeks, and by then, I'd have the ARMS.

Well, that was 6 or 7 years ago, and I keep thinking the little POS will shoot itself loose LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO!... but the damn thing is still there, and I haven't had to tighten it even once. I think I'll gold plate it, and put it on the TV set!

I've got a total of 90 moa of forward slant on the B&L 10x mount now, and all 145 moa are available as "UP"... that works out to just a little under 2000 yds with the M118-LR round ;)...
... but I can't see the barrel yet ;)))

I never heard from Tim... I think we got our wires crossed, but they do that 1800 yd shoot twice a year, and I'm going to make the next one for sure.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 00:48:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck..glad you got to shoot today. I went to the range and had it all to myself! Can't get any better than that. Well maybe if I had a bunch of Hooter's Girls along. I shot some nice little groups, Got to bang steel out to 400 yards. It is nice and cool today so that made the range visit even more pleasant. I guess eveyone was home getting ready for the Hurricane to come this way. It's only a Cat. One, so all that will really happen is that we will get a bunch of much needed rain.

Bravo, You really are welcome to borrow the Aimpoint if you would like. Better to try it out with out commitment, than get stuck with something you do not like. It's up to you, the offer stands.

I think I like the plain old iron sights on the AR for "distance" shooting. I did that today at 100 and 200 yards on the 8" gongs and banged rounds off the steel frequently. I tried the Aimpoint at 25 and 50 yards off hand snap shooting and I was happy with that too.

On the way home I was thinking it would be possible to zero the iron sights at one range, and the electronic dot at another, say, closer in. this would give two aiming points. The red dot seems to get in my way at longer ranges. It almost covers an 8" target at 300 yards. Any comments on this? Just a thought.
Cory <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 01:12:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike M, No way will I stop shooting the 22/250AI! I hav'nt learned to shoot that one yet, I'm sure not gonna try to relearn on a new rifle.
This one is for next year. I met George by way of an internet trade
for a Steyr last year.
I'll need you to spot me a few points for October eh ? If I
could just stay with one bullet and one load I would do better.
Posted my best group at the Sept. match with that AI, 4.25 in. @ 800,
though it was in the 6 and 7 ring. Tim in Ca.
Tim Meyers <>
Tracy, Calif, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 01:59:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Aimpoint is parallax free. It actually has perfect opticals. Considering that is has no magnification, it shouldn't have been any big deal to do right, and Aimpoint did. The sight uses internal optics that ensures the dot is placed over the target point regardless of your line of sight through the scope. I have tried moving my head so the dot is at the outer edge and the aim point (no pun intended) was right on. The diameter of the lens is also large enough for quick acquisition, and I never feel like the thing ought to be larger.

I sit my Comp-M on top of the A3 removable sights and use a cheek piece. The result is a perfect sight alignment and a very comfortable hold. I can also remove the sights and the cheekpiece and place the Aimpoint on the rail, and I still get a good line of sight. Some folks prefer the ARMS mount as it places the scope low and in the iron sight picture without any need for a cheekpiece. I didn’t, but that was simply a personal choice. The sights on my AR are still usable if the scope fails with a standard rail mount on top of the iron sights, and the scope and cheekpiece can be removed in seconds if necessary.

I use the “Delta Pro Cheekpiece”, but it needs modifications to function in the field. The thing comes with a cheesy plastic mount that replaces the rear sling mount, which holds the cheekpiece in place. (The cheekpiece has a sling mount of its own.) I made a steel screw mount instead that the buttstock bolt screws into. I am also going to install a thumb screw on the bottom. I’ll do this by getting a screw mount from the hardware store that is made to be embedded into plastic and installing it into the stock. (Drill stock, heat plastic, push in screw mount.) The reason is that the cheekpiece doesn’t securely fasten to the stock and comes off on occasion, even with the steel mount.

My Comp-M also has been dropped, dragged, hit, knocked around, etc, for about a year now, and it has not suffered but a simple scratch. Gear is gear and should need to be coddled, and my Comp-M has certainly taken a beating without failure or whining.

Hank <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 02:50:43 (ZULU) (your host address:


Correct. The ARMS mounts are sold through distributors, Mounts Plus being one. I was in need of the new #39 in early July and no one seemed to be carrying them. Sharon of Swan offered to sell it direct if I couldn't find it through a distributor.


Yes, Vicodin is good for lunch and dinner, too! ;)

So, it's settled. I shall be the new "Minister of Just What Part of The Bill of Rights Don't You Understand." Very good.

Now, where's that Spanish-English dictionary of mine?

Moe Mensale <>
thehurricaneisontheWESTcoastforachange, FL, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 04:02:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe: the missus had a bunch of titanium imbedded in her spine earlier this year. I'm well acquainted with vicodin, and running out for more ;-) Well, now we're at a crossroads. The obvious question is whether it's easier to force a bad day upon 60K regular troops (who would have thought Cuba was THAT big?!?) or get the equivalent number of folks to move into, and then vote for sensibility, in one state. On the good side, there's roughly twice as many American sailors in Cuba as ruskie "advisors".

Hank: thanks for the info, I think I'm gonna mess with the idea further. If things go the way I'm hoping, mountsplus will be willing to swap me a twice mounted (literally) 19A for a 39. I got the 19A when it seemed a good idea at the time. Never even mounted rings on it. That sucker makes things stand up TOO tall!

Cory: you got a deal. When (or if) I get the 39, I'll borrow your sight and info on ring height. Then it'll be easier to try it out, having something to mount it on ;-)

'Lito: I once gave a rather stern "talking to" to an individual at Springfield Inc. about his scope bases. You'll love this. He was entirely sympathetic, as he was there when they were origionally imported (can't remember if it was to or from Germany). Anyway, his solution required half a bottle of loctite, a leather mallet, and a screwdriver to make a "impact screwdriver". When it was all done, he told me that should hold for at least a month! The idea was literally to fuse the aluminum. Now THAT'S quality!
Bravo <>
wishing for liberty in the, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 04:28:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe...Glad all went well for you! Vicoden is good for the soul. Wanna trade some Vicoden for some Lortab 7.5 ? (KIDDING)

I'm getting "customized" on the 9th of October. Titanium plate and screws and bone from someone who was kind enough to think of others before they went to Valhalla. God bless 'em. I really hope this works!

Chuck..did you get to order the TRGT log book? Are you getting the one with the .300 WM data? You should get the Cordura cover for it. Order the Mildot Master too while you are at it. you will really like the thing.

Dang, I got a whole new lot of Federal .308 Match and it has the same damn tiny burrs around the case mouth. Whats up with that? This does not seem to affect accuracy, but it is disconcerting to look at. I shot sub MOA groups today with it at 100 and 1 7/8s at 300. so it seems to be fine, but still gives me some discomfort to run it through my rifle. I wonder if Federal knows about it. I did look through a case lot of Fed. .300 WM today at the store and I did not notice the same thing on the .300 WM rounds. HHmmmmm.

Cory <>
The Hurricane is not coming here either, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 04:48:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for a range to shoot in the So Cal area. Perferabbly close to San diego. Before I came to Cali I could shoot off my back porch out to 500 yards and did so alot. I have a Rem model 788 that shoots 2 1/2 inches at 400 yards with factory rem green box. and havn't been shooting for a while. I know that my rig ain't the best but I gets the job done. In fact it is quite cheap. Original 18 1/2 barrel and wood, bsa deerhunter 4-16 x50 scope and harris bipod. Any info on a range will help.
Hill Billy <seideljm@3maw>
san diego, ca, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 09:28:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory I noticed the same burrs on my 175's and I just wiped them off with my fingernail and shot .4" groups at 100 with it. I also checked my .300WM 190's and didn't notice any burrs. It might just be the .308.
Rob <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 11:15:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

My vicodin for your lortab 7.5 only if FFL to FFL!

On the arthro - they gave me a choice between "the big blackout" or a spinal. I opted for the spinal - thought it would be cool to see myself on TV, just like the Discovery Channel. The doc gives me the spinal and I lay back down on the table and small talk with one of the smurfs. I am getting real uncomfortable now cause the knee is starting to hurt like a sonofabitch. So I ask Dr McKay if they can shift me around a little before starting so the knee won't hurt so much. He looks at me, grins and tells me to get my a$$ out of his operating room. The surgery was over and I lost 90 minutes of my life! Damn aliens!

Moe Mensale <>
Nohurricanebutitsureisrainingalot, FL, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 12:32:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken Hunter,

I tried using the URL you provided to look at your recoil pad installation but no luck. Is this correct?


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 12:44:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC, I am a better think up the idea guy than a cut out and sew guy. The slings are simple,but making a bag that I would show anyone is another story. If only I could get someone tomake it for me. So far I have just made a sock like thing that puls over and ties at the bottom. I would like to have some padding around the scope and muzzle and the ability to zip open the muzzle and scope areas for shooting. Old Dean/Trigger 50 had something he said would do this but I have never seen it.

On the M4 slings I saw a place that sells the slings like I make. They are not made by me but the quality looked good and the price was good at 22.00 for an improved HxK/Ghiles type for 22.00 USD. They are "CQB Solutions" 559-635-1172. I give the usual disclaimers in that I have nothing to do with them other than say the slings looked well made and they were nice guys.

Tim, I have shot a different rifle scope combo everytime I have been at Sac, so no excuses.LOL The little 22's shoot great groups but I prefer something that will hit the target with energy at distance. I understand you have a shoulder problem and that is a great reason for limiting yourself to a mouse gun, but guys remember this is not the game of High Power, energy on target is what gets the job done. Use only what you would in the field and be happy!

Doc King, sorry I dont have a chance to compete with you this year. I hope the new rifle does well for you. Good luckto you and all the others going.

Very few matches have anything to do with sniping. They may call it that but then they allow you by design to show up with bench rest crap and pretend to be a sniper. Now the guys going to Storm Mountain, you will be in a sniper match, truly no BS! Have fun and shoot well.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 13:11:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

So, is there a tailor or seamstress in the house? A few guys kicked around the idea of a minimal rifle case for the field. Something much smaller than a drag-bag. MAYBE with a kydex clam shell to cover the action. Probably nothing to cover the stock. Maybe not cover the barrel. Something that comes off quick and quiet. It should take knocks and keep dirt out. Mike had some ideas. Bravo described something from (I think) the Lee. There would be a market.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 13:49:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

BRAVO: I had George build a .223 because I have several .308's including an A4 stocked Rem 700 exactly like the .223 that shoots into the .2's at 100 yards. Plus I shoot a lot of paper and steel gongs for fun out to 500 yards and I wanted some thing that my Wife could shoot along side me with no recoil. Also it could be a great Groundhog gun.

If you don't buy that line... I convinced myself I "needed" another gun and I didn't have a .223.

I have .17's, .22 Hornets, 22-250, .308, etc..
Larry in PA <>
PA, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 13:55:08 (ZULU) (your host address:


You NEVER need an excuse to buy a new gun... you need an excuse to NOT buy one... dying of a brain tumor next week, or stranded on a deserted island with no gun shops, will do ;)

Speaking of 22's.

I asked this a while ago, but got no answer...
With a .223 and full length barrel (26")... will a 9" twist stabilize the 75 gr A-Max's or the Hornady 75gr HPBT's at around 2900/3000 fps? Anybody know from personal experence... is so, what load are you shooting.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 14:28:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


Headed to the range to do some more work with the new 6.5 X .284 Norma. Will publish my results when I return. At this point I'm still shooting factory (Black Hills) 142 gr. moly coated bullets. Velocity chrono'd 3,050 when they tested the gun. We'll see if it compares to my results today.

For those that replied with load data many thanks.

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 15:32:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe...Will my C&R FFL be okay? I'm going for the knock out, the Doc is going to be cutting me to the bone. I'm not worried about the pain as much as twitching and causing the doc to slip! Damn, I wanted steel plates...I think the refer magnets stuck to the knee would be kinda cool.

Close fitting gun bag/sock/protector...Kydex is not that hard to work it will form at temperatures that are achievable at home. But I'm trying to picture how it would protect the action/scope area.

Hmmmm...It would have to open and close like a clam shell or be in the nylon matrix as two halves formed to the action/scope area. Are you gents thinking of something that would allow you to deploy the rifle with the protector on it and just unzip the scope area....hmmm. what about operating the bolt? What about a "thing" like a saddle scabbard formed out of kydex with a nylon overlay and some form of padding inside, say maybe really thick felt. With webbing sewn on to allow attchment of pouches ala Blackhawk's BTS system (or Ghillie). The stock/butt end would be attached by fastex buckles and then you would unbuckle the end, slide the end off, and slide the rifle out of the case. Just forming some thoughts for discussion.

Whats wrong with just "slimming" down a dragbag. Whats wrong with a drag bag to start with? All just questions to stimulate conversation to work out this idea.

I helped a friend build some components of his experimental aircraft (a Long E-Z) It was mostly made out of structual foam that was cut with a nichrome wire that had controlled current passed through it to heat the wire and cut the foam to shape, then overlayed with fiberglass cloth and resin. How about some soft foam cut inside to the shape of the rifle, then shaped on the outside and nylon laminated (glue) to the outside of the foam? It would open like a clam shell and be held closed with fastex buckles.

Just some thoughts
Cory <>
The Hurricane is coming ashore very close to us, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 15:38:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: I don't have any first hand experience with the A-max's, but this is what I DO know. Geoff told me that the Hornady 75 BTHP (non-Amax) would work great in my rifle, but not to purchase the A-max. Maybe bullet OAL? Mine is 1:9 also, or it could be that mine's a shorty.

Larry: you owe me no explanations, I was just jabbing. Really though, you've got some of the best reasons known to man, or woman for that matter. Enjoy it, it's all about fun!

CDC: yup, it was me. The part I've not figured out yet though is the fasteners. On my Lee Enfield cover, there's 3 snaps, which allows it to "bellow" somewhat, and not make all that great of a seal. Better than a poke in the eye though. I will not use velcro, as I find that offensive to my ears. The other part is that the L-E cover is secured to the rifle via a leather thong through the holes in front of the magazine. The M-14's have no such provision. Great idea though, from covered, just rip 3 snaps and fire. The cover stays "attached" to the rifle, although hanging, without worry of loss.

Mike: not trying to sound flippant, but if you make it, people will buy. I would.

Moe: yeah, the damned aliens. Took off on the bike towards Roswell once, came back with a concussion and every fuse on the bike blown. I was wet also, but it hadn't been raining, so the obvious thought was that I had waxed it somewhere, except there wasn't a scratch on the bike. Odd part is that the face plate on my helmet was busted off. I have no memory of that evening or the next morning. My pistol was still full though, so either they snukked up on me, or looked like hooters girls. The mystery continues ;-)
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 15:49:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

The A-Max's are a bit longer that the 75 BTHP's... so I'll try the BTHP first.

I have a large Eagle drag bag, and it's way too heavy, and clunky in my opinion. It has lots of pockest, for tons of junk, but that's what Alice's are for...
You wanna carry 35 pounds in one hand, or 18 pounds of gun, ammo, log book and bag, and the other 17 pounds in the Alice? Not only was it heavy, but I humped a seperate shooting mat along too :((

Last year at Storm, PeteR had a really neat drag/gun bag. It holds about 40 rounds, log book, and a few little things, is light, and unfolds into a shooting mat.

Speaking of which... those of you that are going to Storm for the first time, BRING A SHOOTING MAT of some sort. Both shooting lines are covered with a small, chipped, shale. It's like lying on broken glass!


Pablito <>
Dyslexics ponder the existance of doG... in the politically corrupt country of, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 16:16:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

on that recoil pad writeup... several folks wrote to me unable to see it at:

You can also see it at:

I have found the problem with the first URL path... It will take about 24 hours or so to clear up. (DNS issue for those of you familiar with that).

Scope mounting:

you hogs oughta love this one. last week I shot pretty well at storm. Well during that time, Danny up @ storm kept telling me that he thought my rifle was slightly canted... so I kept a really close eye on that. The other clue was my cold bore being a consistent .5 moa to the left... but hey... it was consistent.
Anyhow... back here @ the ranch, I was eyeballing my rifle... noticed... dang..that scope is abit tilted... now we're not talking much... but I tell ya what.. my wife's husband... I'm gonna have to talk to that dude and get that corrected...

Enjoy & Hold Hard...

Who all's going to the Rondevous next weekend..??...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Just 'cant' get it, right in the old dominion, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 16:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito - storm:

That platform you're referring to is now covered with grass so thick you could take a nap in it...

I would recommend bringing some elbow pads in case you get into an uncomfortable area... a shooting mat is one more thingy you gotta carry around...

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 16:28:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

On this field rifle case: Cory's idea of an old style rifle scabbard using modern materials may be good. Maybe just a plastic or kydex clamshell over the action area. Kydex is NOISY. That may be curable with the padding (closed cell foam?) that you'd have to use anyway. Maybe open with one snap and draw the rifle out. The case could be folded up and stuffed in a ruck.

That may be too big. Maybe just a clamshell with a zipper that fits over the action. I like small and light. Fits in a ruck and doesn't weigh much. Protects the scope and keeps the crud out of the action. Tiny pocket, if any. Easily removable with razor blade it not desired. The last thing I need is more luggage.

CDC <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 16:42:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito' the 75 is on the heavy side for the 75 but the Last AR I had shot them good as well as the .223 Stainless flutted Varminter. I don't know if a 1 in 7 like my Ranch rifle would be better but the 1 in 7 does shoot them OK. That's the 75 gr vmax Those hollow point match bullets were disappointing in all my guns. Dunno why.
Gun Drag bag substitute.
Our here in SCC (Sniper Coyote Country) we have a lot of variation in terrain and weather. The best Thing I've found is just a conventional rifle case with a waterproof back and sheep lining inside. You don't want to zip up your gun and leave it there overnight because it will rust quickly. But get the kind that has a tall scope allowance and a good zipper. (makes it wider). It should also be equiped with and strap carried so you can carry your weapon up bad terrain with it zipped up and protected. Some cases allow for taking the gun sling off and using it with the case strap so you can put it on backpack style. When you get to the shooting site unzip the gun and case and fold it out flat. The sheep skin is warm and soft to lie on while you shoot or sleep for that matter. The outside blocks heat or moisture or little lava rocks and Probably Nylon would work OK for the outer shell. We just toss it on a soap weed (yucca) or in the snow or whatever and sit/lay on the lining side.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 19:00:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
Haven't ordered from TRGT yet. I'm going through the decision process on everything I'll need so I can place just 1 order. I did like your setup. And after having the problems with my elevation turret yesterday, it may not be so long before scrapping my scope and getting a Loop in mil-dot. Then I'll definately need the MD master.

On your homemade bag, ask Eric (Demise5). He had one yesterday that he and his wife are working on and it was pretty nice. He's keeping his Mauser in it.

If you're serious about it let me know. I can probably scrape up a couple of squads to a platoon.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Waitingongordon, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 20:38:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the trip to Cuba, you make it as far as Gitmo- I bet you have all you need to change to political environment. Better hurry though, if Gore gets in, they will probably give that back to Castro.
Kydex is loud when "bumped" or scratched but a little automotive rubberized undercoating deadens it.
Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 21:00:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory & CDC

I posted this a week ago or so, but here is a refresher,
Over at 3rd Recon Bn, we used to go to the para-loft, use a
heavy duty sewing machine and make a "scabbard" type of drag
mag using 3 layers of heavy canvas, lined with an old poncho
A good drag strap at the pointy end and some welded metal d-rings
sewn in for a sling attach point.
The canvas is cheap, quiet and DURABLE! did I mention cheap?
That home made drag bag was the greatest, it served me well over
in the pacific theater.

Semper Fi brothers!

Kush out.

Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 22:27:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Roll call for the Sniper match at SMTC:

I'll be there. I've not trained any, but need to attend, good mental health break.. And it way too much fun to miss! I've changed a little bit since last year, I now look a little more like 'Fat Bastard', but in camo.

UnDude: Thanks, I'm going to give it a fair try again this year, no partner once again. Sorry you can't make it. We'll drink a few to you at the 'After action' party.

Skimpy light no-frills drag bag.

The two drag bags I left with Rod @ SMTC are the Tony Pallini (spelling?) look-alikes. They're 1000 denier Cordura, no pockets, velco opening at the muzzle, butt and scope. There is a velcro flap on the right side that opens and allows access to the action and trigger. The rifle can be fired while still inside the drag bag. There are shoulder straps for carry and loops on the muzzle end for a "D" ring to attach a drag rope.

Good Luck all.

Dave "Doc" King

David L. King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 23:56:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh, just thought I would give you a 2 cents worth. Whoever thought that the Phantom flash hider would make a half way decent substitute for a bayo, I don't really agree. It's cuts are interesting, and I don't understand the way it works, but sharp it's not. At least no more sharp than the blunt back of a knife, which I also wouldn't want poked in my eye.
Bravo <>
Now a local recruiter for the Cuban cruise, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 00:37:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
When I was firing twin mini guns on my Cobra, 308 was pretty easy to come by. But now I need a little better accuracy, anyone out there know where the best deal on .308 match ammo can be found? (fed 168grn bthp match preferably)

Fangs out hair on fire..

Jeffa <>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 01:08:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

'lito: check your mail box, Dude. I've sent you over some load data.

Hornady claims that the minimum twist rate should be 1/9". Having said that, the A-MAX's seem to have more bearing surface to them compared to the 75 BTHP's. If you plan on shooting these bullets in an AR, try the BTHP's first as they can be loaded to magazine length where the A-MAX's cannot.

I brought in several thousand of these bullets and they sold like hot cakes. I can't wait until I get my order for more.

Jeff Babineau <>
Canada - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 01:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Doc" King,
Is that "Jamie", of White Marsh Arms? If so, I've bought my rifle and God knows how much ammo from him. Great shop, definitely the best in this area! Does he do fairly good work on 700's? I was thinking about having him adjust the trigger on my 700 Police. He told me he could do it. I just don't know if I'll have the time to get up to Neskopeck PA to have Hart do it. Also do you know of any good smiths in the area other than Hart (sp?). Also any other good ranges other than the one in Carrol Co.? If so drop me a line :).

All this talk of shooting .22 till you're batty has inspired me. What's a good (read: best for my meager budget) buy in a .22? I have a 10/22 and a Marlin model 25 with a 23lb. trigger ( or so it seems) I was thinking about trading them both for something a bit better, any suggestions (R-R-Ruugg-RRRuuggge, CZ, Rem, etc.). Please pardon any mis-spellings, Punch Grand Cru Torpedoes(maduro of course) and Makers Mark Manhattans are just too good a combination to pass up! WooHoo!!!
Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 01:51:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rich: Best .22? Best at what? I've owned four 'good' .22s. Two Anshutzs, a Rem 541-s, and a Winchester 52c. The good Anshutzs (what's the plural?) are hard to beat, but for the price you're better off buying a new car. The new edition of the Winchester 52c has problems: low comb, bolt configuration forces way high scope mounting. I have one now, and it was a mistake. You may be able to find a Remington 541-T. It's out of production, but if it's anything like that 541-S I had, it's a sweetheart.

On ammo: You can buy the match stuff for double the price of hunting stuff. Or you can try several brands of hunting stuff until you find one your rig likes. Standard velocity seems to be more accurate. It's funny how rifles prefer different brands. My ugly little Anshutz likes the bulk Remington stuff sold at Wally-World.

CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 02:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Let's just say I really don't want to spend over $250.00.... otherwise I'd just buy a whole buttload of Fed GM .308 175's and practice, practice, practice. I figger I can improve my shooting skills and "save" money (who am I kiddin' "yeah Honey, it's an "investment" LOL) if I git a good quality (adult sized, so I can put my extra Mike Miller sling on it) rifle with good iron peep sights to practice with. Any thoughts?
Later Compadres...
Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 02:14:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
I'll second CDC's recommendo on getting bunches of 22 ammo. Get a box of every different brand and type you can find. I also found the slower stuff to be the more accurate, with the tack driver being (no joke here) Remington Shorts. The only down side is that I have to clean out the chamber every 20 or 30 shots, as the longer chamber makes the shorts a difficult fit with a little cake up. I dunno what's a less than $250 good 22, but it seems that a good set of iron sights ran about $100 complete with bases. Of course a case of ammo is months worth, but a good rifle is virtually forever, I have yet to burn a single barrel chambered for 22.

Now for the "other" caliber question. As I've mentioned before, I'm working REALLY hard on NOT buying a 6.5, probably a 260, but for tonights questions, a 284. So which action is appropriate for the 140's in a 284? I would think that a short action would limit how far out you could seat the bullet (intrude on case capacity), but the standard action seems a touch long. And the hard question: anyone run 5000 rounds through one yet? I'm just wondering if the barrel life is much worse that a 308. Of course, if I show up with a bolt gun, those that REALLY know me (Mike for one) will have a laughing fit.
Bravo <>
now taking able bodies, Cuba wants YOU!, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 02:32:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo...Reference Cuban Cruise, I can run comms or snipe, I would'nt be much help in a CQB fight right now til I get the joints fixed. But count me in. I can run any piece of heavy equipment on the planet, and fly a plane in a pinch.(he he heh). I never did get the lesson on how to land though :)

Kydex is noisey, but it can be quieted down with an overlay of nylon and some kind of padding inside, BUT I was not all for kydex, some one mentioned it's use, so I thought I'd play with the idea some. The idea of a scabbard is probably a reasonable one. I like Kush's idea. use some 1000 D nylon and some thick SCUBA webbing to make a close fitting bag/pouch/scabbard, closed with fastex buckles and nylon straps....kinda sounds like Eagle's dragbag/shooting mat but in a cleaner design. I like the idea of a bag that you can transport the rifle in and lay on to shoot if needed. plus it allows for transport of shooting stix if you use them. You gents are right, the rest of the gear should be on the harness. Mike, we'll keep kicking this idea, you can make a proto type!?
Cory <>
Finally a cool breeze from the hurricane, Fl., USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 02:43:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just sent a post to Terry(Two Shoes) on the 6.5 X 284.

Short range session today had the first three rounds touching (.250") and a fourth opening the group to .600". The rifle is new and now has 67 rounds through it. Settling down nicely.

Will report my 600 yard testing later in the week provided I can get the range. Will probably be an early morn trip. Unfortunately, when we shoot 600 all the shorter ranges must be closed. Like I told Terry I'm not bitchin'. The place is only 6 miles from my house.

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 03:34:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm looking for anyone who can tell me where I can get a good barrel for a 6MM Rem. It is for a Ruger model 77 I want a good heavy barrel for Varmints. Any help would be appreciated.

Zach <>
Evans City, PA, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 03:36:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you want to build a 6.5x284, do it on a long action, and have the barrel throated to seat those 142's out there.

Jeff (from Canadia)...
Thanks for the tip... and waiting for that "Beaver Light" the only beer that gives "Bravo Brew" a run for it's money ;)

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 04:20:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yesterday I was out riding my Sporty and stopped by the lake for a cup of coffee. I noticed the Sea Gulls (River Chickens)were hanging in the wind effortlessly with their wings set. It occured to me that they were being perfect little wind flags pointing right into the wind. This might be useful someday.

Five days on the wake-up. See ya'll at the Rendezvous.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 10:17:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick S.

No, not Jamie at White Marsh Arms, Jamie at Tac-Ord in Idaho.

You're right about White Marsh Arms being a good place, they get some pretty interesting stuff there. Friend of mine got his TRG-41 there a few years back.

As to good smiths in the area, I don't know any, I'm partial to guys I've visited, don't care to try someone new at the last moment. Hart in Nescopeck is good but a little drive. Jamie at White Marsh could adjust the trigger for you, as you already know. As for trigger work, IMO it's best if you learn to do your own. There is a good article here at this sight that covers it.

Ranges in the area, There is a nice 300 yard range in Mt Airy (Izaac Walton on Shirley Bohn Rd) and also a 300 yard range in Thurmont (Izaac Walton). I'm no longer a member at either, I shoot on a farm not far from the Mt Airy Izaac Walton. I can get 600 yards there depending on crops and there are no sight-seers.

Dave "Doc" King

David L. King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 11:12:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

I Adjusted the trigger pull on my Sendero as per one of your frequent

contributers suggested. He was right on the money. It breaks like glass. 2lbs 2oz's Thanks

Matt <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 11:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Doc" King

Tac-Ord makes a great piece, don't you agree?

Jamee re-did my Rem700 with a Harris Barrel, A4 stock, Badger rings, fats action bolt knob, the works. How's yours shooting so far? After my break-in, my rifle has been a real tack-driver.

On the drag-bag debate, I was interested on the bag that was mentioned that the rifle stayed in the bag while firing, what happens if the bag bunches up and puts pressure on the barrel? Could it throw off your POI? Drag bags are nice, they keep the dirt and junk out of your shootin' iron until it is time to move into your firing position, but a scope cover and one of Undude's Muzzle Mittens are really all you need.

Cory, I am going to fabricate a bag similar to what I have mentioned, I'll send a pic of it when I am done and get your opinion

Keep your powder dry gents

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 12:04:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh yeah rosterhogs,

A quick question on bi-pods and handstops,

My McMillan A4 only has 1 front sling stud, is it possible to use a Bi-pod and a handstop with the same sling stud?


Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 12:15:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Good .22 for $250: Check the gunshows for old target .22s. Some of the second tier gun companies made some rifles that weren't half bad. Mossberg and Marlin are two. They aren't Anschutzen gewehren (I had help) but they aren't $3,000 either.

CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 12:30:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken Hunter: Just got back on the air after those two glorious weeks of outstanding training at SMTC. The weather changed quite a bit towards the end of week two. Rain, wind, cold. But it was a great feeling to make that 700 yard cold bore shot in 25 mile an hour winds after spending the whole night in pouring cold rain. Got him in the collar bone with only 4 1/2 minutes of left with that 300 win mag. You've just got to love it. In week two I teamed up with Mike (Robocop) D. and we smoked em. It was a hell of away to spend my 49th birthday. Recommend it to all. I'll try to drop you a line before the match this weekend but I have a lot to catch up on the Roster and my e-mails.

PeteR. I'll bring better Cigars this year.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 12:47:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kush: if you choose to orient your Harris in the suggested (by Harris) direction, you will have a sling swivel stud mounted on the bipod facing rear to sling into. I dunno about handstops.

'Lito: is that a long, or a standard length action as opposed to a short?
Bravo <>
The banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 13:27:21 (ZULU) (your host address:


Yeah, I really like the Tac-Ord rifles. The one I just got is my third Tac-Ord rifle. First day I had it I set up the scope and fired 2 rounds to zero the thing and then shot a group, the group measured .441. I was using some HSM 175 ammo I had left from the CFSAC matches.

Jamie, Jim and the other folks at Tac-Ord are great people. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with then during the building process(es). They are always easy to talk with and want everything to be perfect.

I believe Jamie is coming to SMTC for the Sniper shoot, he'll no doubt be bringing some rifles.

On the drag bag issue. I don't shoot with the rifle in the bag, it's an option though. Danny Basso and Jamie Howdyshell (Jamie from White Marsh Arms) did try shooting with the rifle still in the bag. They seemed to like the results.

Dave "Doc" King

David L. King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 13:37:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff A,
Welcome back stranger!! Its about time you gave up the moly!! You will find it can be a real problem for consistant CBS until its "Fouled" itself again. I talked to my gunsmith a while back and he tried the moly for awhile and found he started getting moly fouling in the barrel and actually had to lap it out to get rid of it. You won't be sorry if you dump the moly esp if you start competing in matches where you have to have a consistant CBS. Sounds like your still shooting so thats what it takes, catch you later.

Come on out here, you can shoot for 2 or 3 miles if you want(HA) What caliber are you going to shoot??? They have a mile target set up out at the D&L shoot in Wyoming and several guys have hit it but its the old set there and shoot until you hit it and you pay so much a shot.

I forgot the 6.5x284 data but will get it this afternoon or tomorrow, hey I am old and forgetful what can I say(HA).
Pat <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 13:44:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

When I get home I'll take a look in my H&K catalog. I believe they have a combo hand stop/sling swivel that may work on the bipod with some minor mods. I'll e-mail you tonight if it looks adaptable. Thanks for bringing up the memories of Schwab!! I'm having nightmares of long runs to the Pineapple fields and fighting off vines in NTA!!!

I'm still interested, will e-mail you when I get home.

The way you drive tacks, You sniping is fine by me!!

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 14:18:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys on the bags and other products you would all like to see. I am lazyby nature and hate to sew. I only started sewing the slings because I could not find anyone that did it to my standard. If I could find someone that would make the slings to my standard and pay me a percentage I would turn the business over. I have tried to make bags and would not sell the results because they were not perfect. If someone sends me a sample of the bag I will try and make a few but not for resale. Now a few of you have asked for custom things to be made by me and I have kindly said no in the past so dont take this as an invitation to ask again for custom products. I spend too much time sewing and not enough shooting as it is. How will I ever hope to beat Doc King next year if I dont shoot a great deal. Now if we had a sling making contest and gave the Suzy Homemaker Award.LOL If any of you want custom many guys are out there far better at sewing than I am. Tactical Taylor for one.

Hearing that a bag is out there that sounds like the answer is great. Doc are these for sale anywhere?

Barvo, 6.5x284? Do I have to slap you. 308 is the way to go unless you are Jerry Rice and do the work yourself. The bbls dont last on the 6.5x284 when compared to the 308 and for the sniper game 308 is the way to go. I know a fair number of folks are looking at the 6.5x284 for an updated sniper round but stick with what the Military uses unless you are made of money and if that is the case I am going to charge you more for classes.LOL Seriously Rick Boucher has mentioned the benifits of the 308 over other rounds so many times I wont go into it, but I will say this. If you are working 0-800 yards 308 rules. If you are working 800-1100 300 Win rules. If you are working 1100-1500 yards 338 Lapua is the ticket. Some may ask why not use a 300 or 338 closer. Answer is muzzle blast will give you away. Now with all that said if I had to have only one sniper rifle it would be 308! 99% of all sniper engagements are less than 800 yards and I know I can strecth the 308 to 1000 yards. That is based on lots of shooting. I can find 308 ammo in any turd place in the world. Do you think you can do the same with 6.5x284, 300 win or 338 Lapua?

Well off the soap box.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 14:45:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


This here is for the for the case I used last year, and will be using this year (less all that tangley burlap):

Why re-invent the wheel, get an Eagle/LBT/or Blackhawk padded scope cover and either the optional muzzle end, one of Mike Millers muzzle mittens, or even what ".308 Towed" used - a piece of split foam pipe insulation with camo tape.

"Doc" Fat Bastard? Yeah right..........................

See you guys Friday night 1900 at Dennys?


Off to chant the UKD mantras, burn more Hoyo de Monterey #1's, and tone for luck this weekeend. Ohhhmmmm, Oooohmmmm

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 15:11:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


Rod at Storm Mountain has two. Jamie Howdyshell at White Marsh Arms (410.526.6449) has some for sale.

Dave "Doc" King

David L. King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 15:14:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kush, how much did Tac Ord charge you for that work you had done? I have a friend that's looking to get into the tactical rifle world and he's looking for a rifle. He has a standard wood stocked Remington 700 in .308 and if he can send it to them and get some good work done for less than he was going to spend on a new Robar SR60 he might be interested. Thanks.
Rob <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 16:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
.50 BMG and Barrel Length:

I note that most of the .50 BMG tactical rifles out theres use barrels that are roughly 30" or so long. I also note that the barrel on good 'ole Ma' Deuce (the M2 HB, of course) is about 45" long. What sort of velocity penalty does one pay for having a 30" barrel as opposed to one 15" longer?

Tom Simpson <>
Wind-Swept Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 16:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


It cost a pretty penny to have my REM700 re-done, but it costed less than them supplying the action with the same work.

For the rifle mods, not including the scope, rings, bases and fast action bolt knob, about $1650.
What I got added on to my existing 5 year old PSS,

McMillan A4 stock
24" Harris heavy BBL, 1in12 twist & 11 deg. crown
Bedding job
Truing of the action
Jewell HVR trigger

The bolt knob was a custom job, a solid steel knob, it is cool.

Jim Ryan and Jamee Wade were awesome when it came to
keeping me informed on the status of my rifle, and the work,
ask Dave King, he owns 3 of their rifles.

Your friend will not be dissapointed

I'll send you a pic of my rifle to show your friend

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 16:45:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ditto on the trigger adj article, thanks to Pablito and to all who contribute so much valuable info to the best damn shooting site on the web. SC has saved me from ”reinventing the wheel” many times. The LTR now has a very crisp 2lb 8oz trigger which breaks “like a glass rod”. This is a new rifle and early load development looks good. One group was .119 and the other four groups were under .625. Granted the .119 was probably a fluke, and the groups were only 3 rounds at 100 yds, but this rifle looks like a keeper. Bought a PSSDM (poor me right, what a crappy mag design) back in February and it took forever to develop a .750 MOA load. I have been told and have seen several instances for myself where these things come out of the box .500 MOA with factory ammo. Just my luck to get a lemon. The bolt appears to be locking up unevenly, one lug is shiny while the finish (matte black PTFE) on other lug shows minimal wear. I was informed the action does not need to be trued as these were “blueprinted”(anyone have a laymans definition for this term in this text) or trued from the factory. Did they miss this one!? Is turning the barrel back a couple of threads and recutting the chamber to shorten the throat worth the cost? I haven’t noticed a big gain in accuracy with the bullet seated .005 off lands as opposed to bullet seated to fit mag, about .050 off land. Probably just answered that last question but don’t know enough about IB to be for sure. I realize there are too many variables to discuss them all, but any ideas why two so similar rifles shoot so different. Maybe I just got lucky with the LTR load and rifle. The LTR may just restore my faith in “THE BIG GREEN” that is the rifles only, ammo and customer service in my experience have always been poor to put it nicely. Thanks again , gotta load .
Joe Culpepper <>
Splendora, Texas, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 17:31:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Joe Culpepper...

The Remington M700-PSS's aren't blueprinted (or any other special teatment) at the factory.
They are off the rack M700's with off the rack medium weight barrels... some good, some bad, some very baaaad.
They get a black powder coat finish, not PTFE... I have two factory PTFE's and did coated a M24 in PTFE myself, two months ago... and there's no comparison... they feel different... like a good frying pan.
So don't be too demanding, or too hard on them.

The reason that the two rifles shot so differently, is there is a lot variaion in the PSS's. Barrels vary A LOT!!!
Don't waste any money setting this barrel back... they cost Remington somewhere between $18 for Chro-moly and $35 each for Stainless, and the PSS is Cro-moly.
Shoot the barrel out, and then get a Douglas Air gauge, or something else from a custome barrel maker.

As to "Blueprinting"??? A term stolen from otherindustries, it's somewhat meaningless in actions. Most actions have too much "meat" missing, to bring them back to "spec"... you can get oversized parts for car engins, and turn them to "Blueprint spec", but you can't get a new Rem bolt "oversize" and fit it to the action.
The term, as applied to guns" means that things have been lapped, squared, etc... though it may be way "Off" spec.
Actions aren't that critical, like a piston engine... if you lap the bolt face, clean up the tool marks, square the locking lugs, and recesses, and square the reciever face, you could have .05" new "head spae"... but you just cut the barrel, to fit, and you got a "wizzbanger"!!

But you wanna out of the box match gun, for $600 or under... get a Win M70/Stealth. A lotta guys on this site have them (I have three, a .223, and two .308s) and they shoot like madness:).

Glad you liked the trigger article ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 18:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

What kind of accesories are available for the 70 vs. the 700? I'm probably going to upgrade soon and had been looking towards the 700PSS mostly due to the available accesories and stock kits (AI, H-S, Etc.) I do value your opinion, oh wise, one, and would appreciate your veiws.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 19:02:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

You can get whatever you want.
They have the best "factory" barrels in the business, cuz the get their barrels from outside barrel makers, like Douglas, etc.
They come factory Glass bedded in a H-S Target stock, which is a direct copy of the famous "Marksman" stock... which has been winning at ACmp Perry matches, and knocking enemys out of palm trees, since WW2...

You can get whatever you want... Badger and Baer bases, etc. A lot of the accessories for the Rem, are to correct, or make up for short comings.

It's not a brand thing with me... I just finished putting together a M24, for $3000 in parts, so I don't "hate" Rems... but there are issues that have come up with Rems over the last 3 or 4 years, due to the takeover by Stren Fishing Stuff. If you look over the Archives for the last few years, you read a nightmare of factory "Bloopers" that should have been caught at final inspection.

Go to your local stoor, and see a M70/Stealth...
All youz Rosterfarian bums that have M70/HBV, or "Stealth's"... tell Chuck-ski what you think...

I love all three, and there's no issue, about one shoots well, and another doesn't... they all shoot well enough, out of a box, to shoot a 1000 yd match!


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 19:23:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, thanks for the good advice, info. I didn’t like the finish on the PSSDM so I had Terry O’Day at Match Grade Ammunitions in Spring Texas do the Teflon coating. They begin by parkerizing first and then put on the coating. Nice stuff for anybody in that neck of the woods.
There’s a range across the street(Carter’s Country) so you can shoot your piece the same day you pick it up. Gotta like that. I’m going to check out the Stealth, might be an early X-Mas present.

Joe Culpepper <>
burning powder down in, Texas, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 19:23:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bummer 'Lito, you got to the "blueprinting" question before I did. It's also done on parts that are under spec, but you gotta know what you're doing to play that game. For instance, you can line bore a block into spec, and use oversized bearings. That way everything is straight. I think you're right on though with the rifle biz, it's not something that you want churning 7500 RPM without going "BOOM".

Looks like 8 days after them getting a letter, Springfield Inc. is letting me return my 1911A1 AGAIN! This time no charge. Lets see if they'll make it work right this time. He says he's wondering about if the chamber is spec or not. I used the barrel as a gauge and all the ammo fell in and out easy. Gotta wonder!

Thanks Mike, you keep me honest ;-)
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 19:35:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

El Presi...(er, Bravo),

I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the Phantom FS. I am not saying it's a substitute for a M7. It has no slashing capabilities (obviously) and would only be usable in a very heavy thrusting mode. But if the bad guy was that close to me and I had no blade or sidearm available, I think there would be enough of an adreneline dump present to use it in that manner.

Remember, my R6551 has no bayo lug so why not use what is available before resorting to hands, elbows and knees?

As for how it works, got me too. But since it is a takeoff on the Vortex FS, it probably functions in about the same manner. This is how the Vortex works:


Look under Smith Enterprises and click the patent number.

Moe Mensale <>
thesunisout, FL, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 21:16:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Might be late in the 19:00 hour before I can make to Denny's. I will be driving the Major's vehicle - a light blue S10 blazer with West By-Gawd license plate that says "GYRENE"

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 21:45:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

You guys out there with fast connections should take a look at this video clips. They are fairly big but if you want a laugh they are worth a look. It is of a couple people shooting a .577 Tyrannosaur. The rifle only weighs a little under 14 pounds and from what I can see it doesn't have a muzzle brake, they're saying the rifle squirts out a 750 Grain bullet at 2,500FPS.

The resulting fun that ensues is worth a gander.

Here's the URL and I'll make it clickable if you click on my name.
B. Douglas <>
Laughing my butt of in Cowpie, Ca, maybe if I had one of these rifles for squirrel? Can you say overkill?, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 22:53:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck: The HBV seems to work. After taking a couple days training in the bipod and beanie-baby prone, I took my HBV to a 1,000 yd match. The scope was a Vari-X III 3.5X10 M1. Except for a trigger job, the rifle was stock. Wind was squirrely and variable between about 4 and 14 mph. The rifle shot a 198 7X. It would have done better, but twice I took too long between the wind call and the shots and put two in the 9 ring at 3:00.

Very few people can take advantage of the capabilities of rifles better than this one. I can't.

CDC <>
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 23:01:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Here is the source for the four videos I linked earlier. I found the page called Accurate Reloading. Way I figure it is the darn Trex is so punishing they can't find enough people to test fire it for more than one shot. Anyhow, there are many more videos of people shooting, I mean dropping, the rifle on this page.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 23:04:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


To make a link clickable on the roster, type it like this:

<a href="">Sniper Country</a>

It should show up like this:

Sniper Country

I hope this shows up correctly.

Brian <>
OR, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 23:32:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi.I'm a forward observer in the US military and just got accepted to sniper school. I'm writing from home on leave. great to know you guys are out here.
Josiah Koval <>
Lafayette, MN, USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 23:50:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
5 days and a wake up until I leave for subgun school. Should be a blast. If I come back home wearing a beret, you'll know there's a connection between using Uzis and IDF cover fashion ;-) In any case, if you live around these parts, give it a go. It's GOT to be worth the cost (NOTHING!).
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 00:02:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
What is the difference between this Winchester Stealth and the Winchester Sharpshooter in "Hot Tips and Cold Shots," other than an improved stock?
North <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 02:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
OK Guys,

Enough abuse on those who want to try the 6.5 X .284 Norma. This is how we learn...

First off, I'm a dyed in the wool fan of the .308. As I told Terry, I should be in a 12 step program for .308 owners! Still, I wanted something different to play with and this offered some interesting potential. The barrel life question will have to work itself out.

I'll be testing at 600 yards this week if I can get the range. That will help cement my opinion of the cartridge. Personally, I think that if this works we'll have a 1000 yard plus gun on our hands. I'm taking it to Blackwater in November and will let you know the results upon my return. Look for a write up in Precision Shooting.

Meanwhile I'll keep working with the rifle and reporting what I have found. Hopefully, it will help some of you make up your minds, as well.

By the way the Norma ammunition is being produced by Black Hills Ammunition and is damn fine ammo. Jeff Hoffmans' QC makes the big three "match" stuff look like floor sweepings, IMHO. Try their 175 gr. .308 load...I think you'll be surprised. 'Nuff said.

I have 400 rounds (6.5 X .284 Norma) of the first production run of 10K by Black Hills and am very pleased with it. Chrono's an honest 3,050 in my 26" Hart Barrel...

Thanks again for all your candid inputs.

Wes Howe
(Sometimes the instructor, always the student)
Wes Howe (no cute nom de plum) <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 03:15:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes, since I was the only one that said something negative about the 6.5x284, I will take your comments as directed at me. First I do not know anything about you and you are probably in the same boat wiith me. I shoot sniper and highpower and every other year someone comes up with the answer to a high power problem they only dreamed about. Read a new way to spend money. That is how I view the 6.5x284. I stick to 308 in HP because I am a sniper that plays with HP. HP is a game with rules that are crazy in the real world, but I get to read wind and use a sling for practice. Hnece I use the same ammo I do for sniping type work. That is Black Hillls 175's, so this is not a slag on Blackhills. I know Jeff makes the best ammo around!

I personally know Bravo/Stan and was just giving him some advice. Since he has taken a class from me I try and guide him along, when I can. "Stick to the basics and learn, dont look for magic." Rules I have learned to shoot by. I first heard guys going to heavy 243's,then 7mm08 then 6.5x308, then 6x284 and now 6.5x284. All the time the military has been using 308's and the rare 300 win

As for the cute names, well I was given mine by someone that kept calling me "Dude". I said I did not have a surf board and have been called "The Undude" since. So I guess I earned it for opening my big mouth. If history repeats itself as it often does, you are now "The UnCute" or something that sticks along the same lines. This is not to offend you just to get you to lighten up.

I am sure the 6.5x284 will fly very well. Hell we could design a whole new cartrige that would kick everything out theres butt, but cost would be an issue. On a new shooter take a 6.5x284 and have him shoot a 1000.00 worth of ammo and compare him to a cloned guy that has shot a 1000.00 worth of 308 and see who shoots better. We all know the answer, 308 cost is much less and the bbls last far longer.

Honestly I could care less what most of you use, but Stan is like me in that he needs to get the maximum out of his shooting dollars. He has folks to feed. Let the fancy calibers go to the guys that have the little bench rest crap and pull the trigger with a string and think wow what a great shot I am. I just cant help to tell a guy that he is better off with trigger time than running balistic charts and looking for magic.

I hope you do not take this as an attack, because that is in no way what I want. We may have different opinions but that just means we have different opinions. As James says "good men can disagree and still be friends"

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 04:34:46 (ZULU) (your host address: have got to take the time to check out the dudes firing that .577 t-rexx rifle. I'll be damned if I would try....Good way to develop a flinch for life...or detach a retina. They take awhile to load but are worth it. It's hilarious.. Str8shot
Str8shot <>
south central, MI, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 04:48:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Geeeeez! I leave for a couple hours and look what happens?????


I dubbed Mike Miller "Un-Dude" after some Roster fun based around the movie "The Big Lebowsky" and Nick Nolte's nom de film The Dude & his lines. I Almost ate a surfboard over part of the episode too.

Mikes a good guy, even though he is now officially 50% recycled Ginsu knives.

Yes, He can shoot, And bullshoot too, His sling is just now being "Discovered" by the rest of the shooting world, though most of us Rosterfarians have been using them since he began selling the early bloodstained and flesh embedded MK I versions. *:-0

Lito-ski! Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaah-ski!

And Bravo, even the idiot stoppped bangin his head against the wall when he realized how much better it felt NOT TOO!
Kimber! - Kimber! - Kimber! - Kimber! - Kimber!


last but not least-

The Keyser Dennys is ours from 20:00 hrs onwards on Saturday, Sept. 23rd Courtesy of "Depity" Dave Rolls handiwork. Thanks Dave!

I will be there Friday nite too, just look for the spindly little emaciated guy with the tin cup and "Will Snipe for Food" placard around his neck. HA! Just shows how well I can shoot huh?

Looking forward to seeing all of last years folks, and meeting some new members of "Lucys Sheepdip Cafe II"


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 05:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

One of the many things that Mr. Undude has taught me is to just go out and SHOOT! Trigger time is good time!
I attempt to go out once a week, but with work, wife, two kids, and a bunch of other excuses it works out to be once every two weeks. The only way I can afford to do that is by purchasing 500 rounds or Federal GM or Black hills at a time.
I might be able to "save" more by reloading, but time for reloading is just available for me. (at least with my current wife!)

I was checking and a poster whos is stationed in Bosnia has some interesting pictures of some operator's weapons, check out:

Bowflage in action!
Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 05:47:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck...Remmies vs. Winnies....You shot my PSS, and you watched me shoot it, so you know some of them can shoot well. Someone made a comment about fancy rifles and wildcat loads versus a good PSS or Stealth and LOTS of trigger time. I tend to agree with that assesment. Get a good rifle and scope/mounts combo and shoot the hell out of it...THEN get it customized.


Scott Powers made a comment to me once about trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I have spent enough money to get the coveted AT M-24 that I want so badly, but NO I had to try and SAVE MONEY buy trying to get into a cheap rifle and make it shoot like a custom job....Could happen...but it's just as likely you will get laid by (name your favorite actress). My PSS is accurate, most of them HB Winchester was accurate (it's getting customised as we speak). I shot the hell out of these two rifles. SAVE your money and buy a custom job from Andy Webber or TAC-ORD or some other reputable builder...I'm just telling you this from experience. If I had the cash I have spent on all of the rifles mentioned above (including mounts,scopes,bipods..etc.) I would already have the rifle I really want.

As for actions...I personally like the Winchester action, I have hunted with Winnies for years and taken lots of deer, hogs, gators etc. with a M-70 pre-64 in 30-06...I prefer the action. Lots of guys here will tell you Remmies are best....I prefer controlled round feed for a hunting rifle. I like the fixed extractor, I like the field strip capability of the pre-64 style model 70 bolt. I think if YOU like the M-70 Classic action (and it shoots well) YOU will shoot it alot and get really good at shooting. the HB winnies are good. So are the PSS's. Pick one you like, shoot the sh*t out of it. Meanwhile save for a really good custom tactical rig.

I love Andy Webbers rifle. And it does not have my beloved Winchester pre-64 style action an it. Rod was kind enough to loan me his AT-1 M-24 rifle when I was up at Storm and the thing sang to me. I fell in love. But it's a remmie action...What am I trying to say?

SAVE YOUR MONEY and buy a rig from a reputable builder in an action that you have faith in. You will spend hours with this rig on the range doing what's really important....SHOOTING. In fact pick a weekend to come over to Panama City and we will spend the whole weekend at the range. Needs to be before the 9th of October, I get my surgery that day. Call, let me know. Anyone else that wants to shoot with us, bring it on!

Sorry guys if this was kind of strange, I just took two Lortab 7.5's for pain and I still can't sleep. Hope I did not ramble to much.

Have fun at the Storm shoot this weekend gents! I wish I was going too! Give my regards to Rod and the Staff at SMTC.

Cory <>
PC, FL, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 06:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just replied to Mike (the UnDude) on the 6.5 X .284. Apparently I need to lighten up (hell, thought that post WAS light)and explained myself to him a bit. I'm a .308 guy trying something new. As Mike pointed out he doesn't care what we use. He's sticking with the proven .308. I agree for 99% of the requirement it's superlative.
Hell, most of my regular hunting rifles are .308 except my custom .35 Whelan Improved which is my Elk rifle.

The .308 has seen almost 50 years of development and has been our Sniper round for over 30 years of that. Almost any cartridge with that kind of development behind it is bound to be goood. Not to mention LOTS of good components. It is our round of choice.

One of the reasons I went to the 6.5 is that it now is a factory supported cartridge and that means a lot. I no more want to spend time sorting and making cases than you do. As I said, I'll be doing a write up later this year and we can discuss it more at that time.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe (no cute nom de plum...yet) <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 09:44:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey CDC or anyone else that can help. I saw your post about the 1000 yard shooting with the Vari-X III 3.5-10x40 M1. How was it as far as having enough magnification? Could you get a good sight picture or were you wishing for more power? The reason I ask is that I was thinking about getting the M3 model but was wondering about the power factor at long ranges. Thanks.

Rob <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 10:57:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

"No cute nom de plume...yet"???

If Laura, Suzanne, Debra and Rose go out
for lunch, they will call each other
Laura, Suzanne, Debra and Rose.

If Mike, Charlie, Bob and John go out,
they will call each other Fat Boy,
Godzilla, Peanut-Head and Scrappy.

That's just ONE of the differences between men and Women...

So, no worry, Mate... you hang around here for a while and someone will "stick" you with one ;)

Yes... Two Shoes?? ;)

Rob... a 10x at 1000 will serve you well, maybe more betterer that a 20x, as the higher power scopes are very susceptible to mirage.

With a 10x, you can see 1" to 2" detail at 1000 yds...far smaller than any gun can hit.

'lito (PeteR gave it to me!)

Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 11:19:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


As Lito has already stated and CDC will backup the win M70 Stealth is a great rifle. I purchased mine 2 weeks ago. It shot a .375 group at 100 yds and a 3.0 at 300 yds (I dont shoot well but hey I am learning)
With factory 150gr federal Hi-Shoks. My friend turned me on to this weapon as our state doesent have the funding for us all to be issued M 24's for our sniper practices so we purchase our own equipment to be able to shoot and learn. He is getting 1 inch groups at 300 yds with his. I dont recall his group sizes farther out but I do know he is hitting 800 yds consistently. I know I can buy alot of ammo with the money I saved over buying the more expensive rigs and am happy as hell with my rifle. I have a strong foundation to build upon.

a) Shoots great Now
b) Good action for a rebarrel when shot out
c) Great H-S stock pre glass bedded and pillared
d) Money left in the budget for QUAILTY optics
e) More ammo Drill SGT more AMMO!

that is two other happy owners of Stealths hope you get one and enjoy it as we have.


John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 11:24:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,
Thanks for the info on the Stealth. Local gunshop says $630. Too much or about right? It seems OK to me, but wanted to run it by people in the know. Next dumb question, I know everyone says to go with Lupe scopes, and I see the references to the Vari-X II's and III's, what about their Tactical line of scopes? What's the difference between the Tactical and the Vari-X?

Yep, your 700PSS shot like a charm. I've just been reading through the roster and have seen alot of negatives about some of the Rem's. I have always liked Rem's personnally, my first rifle was a .22 Rem. Yeah, I would love to save for an Accuracy International, and may do so, but for now, I'm just looking at an upgrade for the old Savage FP. Actually, I'll e-mail you later 'cause I'd like some help on the scope issue.

H&K's hand stop doesn't appear to fit the bill.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 12:33:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

PeteR: Is it BYO at Dennys Saturday night or are you the generious soul that will be suppling the brew and vino? I've got some cigars.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 12:56:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
I think you took Wes out of contex and I am sure you two have it straightened out. I don't shoot bench rest and I don't pull my tiggers with a string, I get down in the dirt with the best of them and I also have a love affair with the 308s and have shot the barrels out of a couple of them and I agree with what your saying about them. I am not advocating that someone new to shooting go with the 300WM or a 6.5x284 but if I have a choice between the 308 and the 6.5x284 for a long range match you can bet I will take the 6,5x284 or even the 260 over the 308. I know you shoot a 300WM and you have nothing but great things to say about it and I am sure if you came out here, where the wind blows nearly all the time or you are looking at shooting in a match where the targets are quite small for the range you have to shoot, you would pick the 300 or like me I would take the 6.5x284 because it gives me and edge. As you well know sometimes the competition is tough and only a few points make the difference between winning and loosing. When you do the math on a target at 1000+ yards and you check the ballistics of the 300 or the 6.5s against the 308 and then assume your off a few miles and hour on the wind call you have a much better chance of hitting with the hotter calibers than the 308s. I am the first one to tell people not to make the 300WM the primary rifle of choice because of barrel life and I am sure the 284 will also be hard on them but that does not mean we shouldn't take advantage of the ballistics that they have to offer. Just my thoughts on it.
PaT <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:18:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
IMO your statement to Joe Culpepper about actions not being critical is off of the mark a bit. When an action is trued, blueprinting is a BS word for truing, it needs to be completly trued and it is critical!!! The bolt needs to be trued and this means the recoil lugs and bolt face. The action needs to be cut true on the action face, recoil lugs, and most importantly the threads need to be cut true. If you do not cut the threads true you could have the barrel pointing out in the south 40 and this applies to all actions what ever the make. If all of the above is done and a match barrel is installed the rifle will shoot!!!!
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:34:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


About the strongest thing I drink is coffee or Coca-Cola Classic. I'm in the process of checking my gear list and pre-packing for Fridays little excursion to The Rendezvous. At this point the weather is supposed to be REAL nice this weekend as it was last year.

You shooting the .308 or .300WM?

Mikey, 'Lito, Cory,

We'll miss ya this year, but you will be here in spririt. I'll try to park one "Downtown" for youse all 'Kay? Even if it means running it over with a POV. TLMAO


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm any kind of expert on this 70 vs 700 argument. The 70 works fine for me. So does the 700. Rick, Gooch, Dave and Mike prefer the 70. That is hard to argue with. I'll bet any of them will tell you that, given either, the nut behind the butt is vastly more important than whether the gun came in a green or red box.

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 13:42:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok guys,
I think I answered my own question on the Lupe scopes by going to their web-sight. I guess there isn't much difference between the Tactical and the standard Vari-X. Or am I wrong? Next question, the Mk4 is supposedly drop compensating. Has anyone used one and, if so, judged how well this works. I have a Springfield GenII (stop laughing) that is also supposed to compensate for drop, but doesn't seem to work real well. I'll be running .308 168gr SMKBT. Trying to get a full setup going. TIA.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 14:08:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Charles: MK4

My understanding is that the guts of the MK4 is what sets it apart from the other Leupolds. I'm told that you can beat the living s**t out of a Mk4. It's supposedly the one to use on the heavier recoiling rifles.
Now - if you talk to the dude @ US optics, he'll tell ya that the Marines said that Mk4 won't hold up... their claim is - it simply won't perform... but this is a statement from the dude at US optics - another manufacturer of fine scopes...

Good Luck...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 14:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address:


I agree, and disagree with you (what else is new?).
I was talking about two things. First, the "Blueprinting" of an action... which we both know is pure sales BS.

And I also agree... that to build a long range rifle, or bench gun, the action must be "trued", which means squaring the bolt lugs, and action recesses, squaring and polishing the bolt face, chasing the action threads, squaring the action face, yadda, yadda, yadda...

But my comment was aimed at two things... you don't get an action "Blueprinted" in the engineering sense of the word... it is a misnomer, and very misleading to the begining shooter.

And the second point was, you are throwing your money down the pottie, by having a PSS action "blueprinted", and having a $18 barrel set back and rechamber, and reinstalling it into the same stock.

That $300-$400 would be better spent on ammo, until the shooter has the skill to go "Big Banana", and take that action (and maybe the stock), and throw the rest in the garbage, and have a total rebuild. Only then, it is justified to have the action "trued", and only if you are going to put a $400 to $600 pipe on it.

At that point, the shooter should properly get something that was made for the job of long range shooting... which will eat the best part of $2000 to $4000.

That's what I meant.
PeteR, and UnDude-ski'z...
It's all your fault, with your talk of 300 WM this, and 300WM that... and when I get bursitis, and have to learn to write with my left hand, we all know who to blame.

Just threw a deposit on a new 300WM barreled action (a Remington all stainless 40-XB ;)...that was destined to be a Perry rifle, but the guy that ordered it, skipped with a $300 deposit still on it, so my gain.
So I get it less the deposit, with the condition that if the guy comes back, he has to see me for the $300... HA! (as Pat says).

I'll put it in the Sand and Spinach stock I had at Storm last year.
Jeez, and I HATE 300WM...
Now I need another Mk4-M3.

PeteR... kill "Downtown" for me.


Pablito <>
Getting ready for the pain of it all... in the, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 14:43:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

PeteR: I'll have to order you an expresso or a Jolt or just bring along the caffeine tablets. No wonder you've been hammering away at those houses all year.

This year I'll be nailing those targets with the 300 WM. The 190's have been performing like a champ in those 25 MPH winds at SMTC. For the team we'll be carrying the M1A on the stalk and the Kimber for a sidearm. My partner will be using his 308 on the stalk because those holywood 300 WM blanks light up the sky and may even start a forest fire.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 14:50:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck...think about what you want the scope for....listen to Gooch, Mike and the others who are in the know. I personally think that a one rev. cam is the way to go, so do some military units. It's the argument about being off one revolution with the 1/4 min turret or just dail up with the one rev. cam. I have a VX III police tactical that I like alot, it has 1/4 min. knobies. Great scope from a great company. But I like my M-3 LR's the best. The new VX III M-1 looks like a great scope too. if you like 1/4 min knobs and can remember where you are on elevation always, get one of those.

I for one do not need to add to the clutter already in my is easier for me to use the BDC style cam than the 1/4 min.

Plus, once I get my sh*t together, I'm going to compete every year at Storm for the Sniper Rendezvous (sp?) So I think (in my limited experience, I'd go with what the "pros" say if I were you.)that the cam will allow me to be more competitive by reducing foul ups on the operators part.

Just my thoughts.
Cory <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 14:51:17 (ZULU) (your host address:


40X series in .300WM? Way Cool Dude, thats gonna rock! If Garth comes through on the A-191 Turret (ooops "cam") you can just slap an 3.5-10x40mm M-3 on top and have at it.
Don't work bout the shoulder, both mine are fried and the elbows too, and I can still shoot without whimpering too much.

I'm testing some blanks right now in .300WM and will bring a few extras if ya want any.

Fun Prep Drill - Practice donning ghillie, and getting equipment ready within the ten minute time limit. As of an hour ago, I could go from stuff sack to suited up, rifle camo'ed, in about 8 minutes. Probably lose it at the match and suit up backwards or sumfin............


RAINING SHEEP IN, By-GaWd West Virginny, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 15:24:22 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have a Winchester Model 70 30-06 with a 24" barrel and composit stock. I am using a 3-9X32 factory simmens scope. Latly I have been shooting with Winchester CXP2 rounds. Could anyone tell me what type of accuracy I could expect to get from this rifle. I am new to shooting (other than the occasional ground hog) and am looking for tips to increase my accuracy with this rifle. I have read the duty roster and found manny useful articles. I am mainly just looking to see if I have a decent rifle.


Alex Cole
Alex Cole <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 16:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


thanks for checking, Mr Miller gave me the advice to add a rail assembly so I can have my cake and eat it too.

Thanks Mike

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 17:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wounded Knee (Cory),
Which scope did you have mounted on the PSS when we shot? I liked it. What are you going to mount on the Lapua? I'm kind of perturbed at my current scope after the incident Saturday and figured I'd just go ahead and start working on a new weapons system altogether. You are correct about needing to shoot more to get better and that a new rifle is not necessarily going to improve a person's shooting. That said, when are we shooting again? I'm glad Gordon didn't hurt you guys too much.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 17:22:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lup MkIV M3 v.s. Tgt Knobs
I have several possibly derogitory comments about the M3's.
I own (and cherish) a B&L Tactical. From 100m at 3'00" on the tgt knob to 6'3" @ 1000 is only three revolutions (and a c*nt hair). Providing I am sitting in my little spider hole (or other hand drawn reasonable faximile of a hide) looking out over my arcs I have a good idea were Mr. Soon to be Deceased, will be coming from and what range (give or take a couple hundered meters or so. Thus on confirming a range (what do the chicken bones say?) I can move the knob up or down a couple MOA (maybe six). Yes I know "in the heat of the momment" I might screw up and miss read an elevation mark - but then you might see six instead of seven on your BDC your error would be smaller but both unlikely. Also I can account for humidity, temerature, bullet velocity and weight changes etc. All in all maybe we only need the 'minute of man' accuracy but why unecessarily handicap oneself?

My thoughts not yours

Kevin <>
Canada - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 17:41:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


"'lito... comes through on the A-191 cam you can just slap an 3.5-10x40mm M-3 on top and have at it."

PeteR-ski... you been sniffin too many paint fumes... doncha read your e-mail.

Lookie! Take the 300 WM. Put a 190 grain Fed match, a A-191, or a 190-SMK handload at 2950, in the gun.

Put the 300WM cam on the scope, sight it in at 200yds, read the little numbers in yards instead of meters.

Then point the riffle at a steel "E" at 1000 yards, dial the little wqeel to "10"... pull the trigger.

Hear the loud BOOM... and watch the "E" target faw down... count to ten, and hear the CLANK!!

It's that easy...

Didn't you read the "Friggin charts" I sent you. Them numbers DO have meaning (at least to me ;).

You have the cam you've been waiting for... you just don't know it... get out and shoot the sucka'!.

... and I'm gonna put a Mk4-M3 on my new riffle! ;)

OK... I got one for youz guys. A few companies used to make "adaptors" to shoot pistol cartridges in a rifle... for example, you could get a 308, or 30-06, that looks like a cartridge case with a hole through it, and it was chambered for 32 auto pistol... you "long-in-the-tooth" guyz know what I'm talking about.

Anyone seen anything like that recently, and if so, who makes them???


Pablito <>
Tell Lucy that I still love her, and I'll see her next year... Snipin' in the good ol', USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 17:44:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

'lito Dude-ski,
Fianally something I can help YOU out with. Cabela's has caliber adapters available. Both semi-permanent and easy-change. I think .308 had either .32 ACP or 7.62X39, your choice.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 17:55:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have two optics questions:

1) How do the LR 3.5X10's compare to other scopes in the light gathering catagory? I am scraping my coins together to buy one for recreational/tactical shooting and use for hunting gae as well & need to know what to expect in the dark woods. Haven't seen this aspect discussed yet.
2) How does IOR get by without parallax adjustments on their tactical line? I bought a used IOR 2.5X10 but honestly haven't had a chance to mount & shoot it yet.
Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 18:16:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck...I have a Vari-X III 3.5 x 10 M-3 Long Range w/mil dots on the PSS, I actually have two of those, one came off the M-70 HB .300 Win Mag. and is going back on the new tactical rig in .300 WM.(same action, #8 contour bbl. McMillan A-2 stock w/ adj. LOP and cheek) I really am a .300 fan. but .308 is fun too...hell I just like to shoot. I have fun with my boys and the souped up 10/22 they shoot. I have Badger Ord. Base and rings on the PSS holding the M-3 up. I'm going to use Badger base and rings on the M-70 classic action in .300 WM to hold up the M-3 on that Rifle. Built by Charles Carlton Here in Panama City, Fl. BTW. And I'm going to use Badger on any other rifle I have built or buy.

Now, on the Custom .338's we are going with a more powerful scope, If I remember correctly we put Loupies powered to 4.5 by 20 something with 1/4 min. knobs. and side focus...damn, can't remember the model.... Gotta 50mm objective. Its hell getting old. That round deserves more scope..gotta be able to see out to 1500 yards to be able to exploit the rounds capabilities. It has mil dots too.

Kevin, I agree with you. Good thoughts. I'm just comfortable with the cam system. I have used both and I like them both, but bottom line is what you like to shoot...means your gonna shoot more. My limited little brain handles the cam better.

Thanks for the dope on the M-3 .300 WM cam 'Lito!! Good Sh*t. Your a gent.

Cory <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 18:23:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone have experience with the Steyr SSg PIV? Found one that seems to be an incredible deal and wanted to get some basic opinion on the quality of the rifle. I like the hunting rifles and after some good input from some of the forum members I was decided on the Rem 700PSS but came across a SSG PIV in box looks unshot, and they only want about $350 more than the Rem. Looks like a good deal, but I know little about the rifles and have found very little reference on the rifle. Any help will be appreciated, one of these days soom I will have a rifle to practice with.

On the 577 T-Rex, fired on in a 19 lb rifle and it was more than a little unpleasent. For real pain try a 950JDJ. 3600 gr bullet at 2000 fps in a 28lb rifle. Recoil energy numbers in the mid 300's.

Anyone know a source for less than 500 piece lots of the 300gr sierra boattail in .338?
Brian <>
columbia, sc, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 18:51:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Let me see if I have finally figured out the cams that come with the Leupold M3LR.
.308 M 168gr. at 2,600 ft./sec. in meters which is correct
.300 Winchester Magnum 220gr. at 2,650 ft./sec. in meters which is really a 190gr at 2950 fps in yards
.30-06 Springfield 180gr. at 2,700 ft./sec. in yards which is really a 175gr 308 in yards
5.56mm (.223 Rem.) 55gr. at 3,200 ft./sec. in yards which nobody knows what bullet they used

Did I get this right? We have been discussing it for so long it is tough to figure out what is what. Pablito, how you got all this right I will never know. Thank you for your persistence.

You know, if they screwed up something as simple (more or less) as elevation, imagine what would have happened if they made a cam for spin drift.

Hopefully I will get to shoot the 338 Lapua this weekend. I will probably look like the guys in the 577 video.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 20:56:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin - You go on believeing that the likely hood of you screwing up the revolution count is slim and you too will join the club of aw shit. In the heat of ACTUAL combat the chances are great. Every class we had with students using the stupid target knobs lost points for that very reason. Every competition there is someone who loses points for that very reason. But hey, you are the man, drive on. Use the target knobs and have a ball. The myth of one shot one kill and no other shots are fired are cool in books and do not relate to reality of combat is many situations.

When engaging targets in a target rich environment you shoot more than once. Under less then ideal school book situations the number of turns can be lost and you can't see the little marks. It scares the hell out of me when a sniper says that won't happen to me, well go on believeing that and I will smoke you or someone who does believe it will happen.

Rick OUT

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 21:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address:


The dealer here in Springfield is getting $541 with tax on the Stealths. If you are interested I can get you the info on him.

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 21:34:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for someone with references or practical experience with the AR-10T v.s. the SR-25. I am looking to purchase a .308 semi-auto rifle and I have heard varying opinions on the two. The SR-25 is considered superior in accuracy and the price of both the rifle and it's magazines at $110 a pop. I have also heard that the rifle is finicky about ammunition. The AR-10T on the other hand is less expensive as are it's modified M1a1/M14 magazines. However I have heard accuracy is less than expected/desired for a rifle of this type & price and in comparison with the SR-25. Any information or magazine articles would be appreciated.
dan donovan <>
elmira, ny, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 21:44:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK... The issue cams that come with the M3-LR are...

.308M = the current military issue cam, 175SMK at 2,685 ft./sec. in meters. This round is called "7.62 Nato M118-LR"

.300 Win Mag = 190gr. at 2,950 ft./sec. marked "M" for meters, but is in yards... to use this cam... zero at 200 yds and set at "2", or zero at 100 yds, and set dial at one click less that "2"... not at "1".
This is the seal round, and the Federal 190 match round.

.30-06 Springfield 180gr. at 2,700 ft./sec. in yards which is really the 175-SMK 308 in yards... Yup, but shoot at around 2650.

5.56mm (.223 Rem.) 55gr. at 3,200 ft./sec. in yards which nobody knows what bullet they used.

Lupita doesn't know what bullet it's for... but you guys are at "Cam Central" ;) !!
It's for the little 55 Military FMJBT, but it'll track many of the 55 grain pointy, boat-tailed hunting bullets, like the 55 V-Max, etc.

There is a special order cam for ther 168 at 2600, and it will track Fed GM-1... it's around $35.
When you order it, you must tell them whether your cam goes clockwise, or counterclockwise. There are TWO M3-LR's... the "F" series, and the "G" series (see your serial number!)... the "F" series (the early ones) goes clockwise to increase range, the "G" series goes counterclockwise, to increase range.

Now... there will be a test tomorrow ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 21:46:06 (ZULU) (your host address:


On what Rick said...
I'm at an age that if I ever spend Uncle Sams money again, it means their boats are in New York harbor, but I shoot tactical matches when ever I can. And I've been shooting for probably more years that you are alive.
And I've made turns count errors, as have Gooch, Rick, Sinister Dave, and a lot of damn better shooters than I

Last year at the Carlos match, Ken Hunter and I, each humped our Alice packs, and rifles (about 80 pounds for each of us) about 120 yds as fast as we could run... climbed a 30 foot loose dirt berm with a one foot overhang... not knowing what was over the edge.
I was already 3/4s dead at that point, and we dropped into a ditch. Two seconds later, a grumpy cherub popped out of the weeds, and started yelling...
"A sapper in the wires, shoot the sonovabitch, shoot, shoot, he's cappin' the friggin' fuse, shoot, shoot, what the hell's wrong with you... are you guys f**kin officers or something... you waiting for instructions from your' momma, ..." All at the top of his voice, about 2 feet from out ears... and we didn't even see "The friggin' sapper".

When, you finely see the target, you want to count how many turns you have to make, or where the turret was on the last shot... you want to look at your log book, to see what the settings are for the range in question... not this Puppy... I want my range "Right NOW" Thank you!
From the time I saw the "sapper" to the shot, wasn't more than 3 or 4 seconds. One shot, one Clank!

Listen to the Rick-ster, he knows of what he speaks.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 22:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

lito', da cam man!!!!!!!, and anyone else who would like to opinionate, here.

Other than the obvious differences in construction Quality, and variable power, price.

Is there a major difference in the NEW M3LR, 3.5x10, and the reg M3?.

Leaving the tough as nails equasion part out. I understand the LR is a tough little hombre' also, I have the M1LR, and was wondering if the M3 version was a good sub for it's $1100.00 Seester????

All comments, and excessive verbage accepted, as I do not like to get boined on optics...........tanks in advance, Two Shoes.

Finally in the land of under a 100!!!.
Terry <>
USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 23:08:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike: thanks for the help, you keep me honest. You're right on with the money and food issue, that's why I've been selling off stuff for the last few years. I figure if I can get my safe cleared out, I can concentrate on just one or two rifles. A notion that makes 'Lito sick to his stomach. LOL

PeteR: I never claimed to be too bright ;-) Really, if someone had bought my S&W, I would have done it, because I could have got that much cash outta the two to buy a Kimber. And speaking of not too bright, this ties in with Master Rick and Kevin's thread. I chose the Mk4 M3. Acutally sold a Mk4 M1 to buy it too. Why? My great good friend Dan was a FO in the Army. His statement on equipment is "never carry anything you aren't smarter than". Simple on the surface, but better the longer you think about it. So I choose REALLY STUPID equipment. The M3 and good regulated rounds (better than I have now) are rock stupid, which I feel confident in saying I'm smarter than. HA! Now he's an engineer though, so you know where that goes ;-)

Rob: I'm sticking my nose in, but I think 10X was a little too much for me. If Lupita made a Mk4 M3 in 8X and 6X, I would start working my way down tomorrow. BTW, iron sights at 1000 are standard for high power service rifle competitions. I've got lots of mirage out here.

Dan: I talked to Geoff about these once, seems he puts together a oversized AR that shoots 1/2 MOA with regularity. Really though, why not get a M1A? Better ballance.

'Lito: the harlot's gonna get jealous, I know I'm beginning to get that way!

Don't anyone start any shooting, I've broke into my "stash" case of pistol AND rifle ammo.
Bravo <>
kids take colds and recycle them back to you, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 23:37:34 staLU) (your host address:

Forgot: Hey everyone, good luck out there at Storm. Raise a stein for those of us not fortunate enough to go. And think about how nice it is, because when Mike, 'Lito, Cory, and myself (not to mention some others) make it next year, you're likely to hear Rod complaining about the downfall of the neighborhood ;-) Shoot well amigos!
Bravo <>
wishing for a roadtrip, USA - Tuesday, September 19, 2000 at 23:45:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Two Shoes...

The M3-LR is a good little sister to the MK4-M3... specially is you go to matches where you have 50 yard movers.
If you don't need the low power... he MK4-M3 is first cabin.

Bravo... there was a MK4-M3 in 6X, and it was disco'ed about 3 years ago.

I missed one two months ago. They are nice scopes, for urban, or off hand with a semi.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 00:08:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

NAP, Heikki, emailed zip file of 9 photos of DD Ross and Badger Ordnance guards from my two .308s to you. Hope they help.
Bill971 <>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 00:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Lito...A grumpy cherub...Hha ha hahh ha ha ha ha ha...Thats really funny. I'm not even going to speculate who you were refering to, but I have an idea. God, I'm dying laughing. Thanks tons, I needed that. Whew.

Chuck, Get the M-70 Stealth and the M-3 LR from Leupold. Use Badger Ord. base and rings. Harris bipod. Mikey's sling. The only thing I want to know, is the Stealth the M-70 classic action, or that post-64 interloper?

And Lito...why the hell does'nt Leupold make the damn cams in YARDS! We are freakin' Americans, I don' do no steenkin' meters. Are'nt meters some kind of gauges? HUH? wazzup wid dat.

Yup..send one downtown for me. I'll be there next year come hell or highwater. I know Rod will let me shoot from my motorized wheel chair! ( in Florida that's commonly known as a four wheeler.)Yeeha!
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 01:37:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo...a Road trip sounds good. Chuck and I have been talking about making a team to go to Storm next year and trying not to look too stupid. Wanna Go? I'm sure Keyser has enough beer for all of us. Maybe. I will be road tripping to Utah this spring, so we could meet and get some shooting in...Lito, Mike? Whaddya think gents?
Cory <>
USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 01:49:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory: The Stealth is post '64 with no apologies.

All you guys with those woefully inadequate M1s: I'm watching The Emporium. Hell, I'm stupid.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 02:02:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


You KNOW who the grumpy Cherub is ;)... and that was on a GOOD DAY!!

The Winchester Stealth has a "Push Feed"... which is my preference for a tactical rifle.

I have claw extractors on my three my game rifles, but on tactical/sniper rifles, it begs for a jam.

You have to feed a round down into the mag box, for it to pick up and chamber... and if it's just lying in the port, on top of the follower, it will jam, as the claw extractor won't ride over it.

On the push feed, you can just throw a round into the port, and slam it home, with no worries of a jam. The Win push feed is far superior to the Rem.
The Win extractor is all machined parts, and it comes out for cleaning or whatever... the Rem extractor needs a 'smith to get it out.
The Win extractor gets a bigger "bite" on the rim of the case, than the Rem.

The the new military cams are in meters. cuz the rane finderes are in meters, the maps are in meters, yadda yadda yadda...
The older cams (mil and civy) are in yards... but, and nobody knows (or will admit it), somewhere along the line, a lot of the cam markings got messed up. The 300 WM cam is old-ish, and in yards, but somebody decided it should be meters, so changed the "Y" to an "M", but didn't recalculate the numbers... same stupid stuff with some of the others.

Pablito <>
In the land where you can't count sheep to go to sleep... it just makes you breath funny... in the good ol', USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 02:11:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: what was that nifty little jewel called? I'll start saving some clams for it. I take it that the standard M3 dials work with it? And of course it needs to be either a mil-dot or mil-dot-able.

Cory: when you get out this-a-way, be prepared to have your brain lubricated in a classic Bravo Brew way. We'll shoot, and hopefully I can talk a buddy into setting up the IDPA range for us up north. He does some GREAT stuff with movers on a track, we'll just run it back a few hundred yards. Tracked your package from work today, oops is claiming it'll arrive tomorrow. Lemme know if it comes in damaged, I'll force them eat it! As for teaming, I BELIEVE that my dance card is already full, but if someone gets sick and can't go (God forbid), I'll need a partner. I hate looking dumb on my own! I have to agree with 'Lito and CDC on the Wins also. I prefer controlled feeding for hunting, but the push feed Win needs no excuse, and I think I'd prefer a push feed for the job we're talking about. Sure did a BUNCH of single feeding with Mike looking over my shoulder!

Talked to Ned out there at MountsPlus today, he's trading me a #19A for a #39A2, the one with the platform on both levels, straight across. So when I get that, I'll need suggestions on a ring set up for the aimpoint (and to borrow your Aimpoint Cory) ;-) THANKS!!
Bravo <>
with sinuses burning so much I look like a jack-o-lantern, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 02:37:22 (ZULU) (your host address:


Have been replying to you privately about the 6.5 X .284 Norma. Appreciate you assistance with reloading data and advice.

Think we have things straightened out as to why I am shooting the 6.5.
I'm primarily a .308 shooter who has just strayed a bit. You know, kinda like the mid-life crisis where were supposed to get a red sports car and a lady friend half our age!

Have been doing some shooting with 190 Sierra's in my .308 (see, I do shoot one). Load is 42.2 gr IMR 4064, Fed Match Brass, and Fed 210M primer. Chrono's an honest 2,636 out of my Obermeyer 26" barrel and wants to group in the 3-4 inch range at 600. Provided the loose nut behind the butt plate does his...

Any of you studmuffins have similar experiences? According to my Sierra Ballistics Program this is supersonic past 1000 yards. I use 14.5 MOA at six hundred and drop them right in the center.

Similar results with 175 Sierra's and 44.0 gr Varget.OH, OAL on both rounds is 2.800"

By the way, near as I can tell the Sierra program is of quite a bit from the results I get in my rifle. As much as 2 MOA difference...

All for now. Appreciate your posts.

Semper Fi,

Wes (still no cute nom de plume yet) Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 03:44:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone heard of a 'luminous' reticle on a MKIV M1? Serious question. Pablo?

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 04:01:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

I see that the 260 rem has been getting a lot of hype lately. I have a rem 700 la that I plan on using for a project. I have always liked the 308 and its siblings. So I though that a 260 in a long action would be a good choice because I could seat 140's lickin the lands and still have mag length to spare. Which in turn would increace case capacity. Is this good thinking or should I just get a short action.
san diego, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 06:51:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Luminous Reticles can be put in the Vari-X III LE and MK IV scopes by Premier Reticle. Dick Thomas and son Chris do primo work. I have this conversion in the scope mounted on my Chandler Super Grade.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 07:13:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cleaning rod´s,

a good friend from south afrika just phoned me about some cleaning kits he is now manufacturing. They seem to be the source for the Parker-Hale kits. All Brass and nylon covered, any custom lenghth, any thread type.

Any of you rifle builders out there interested ?


Now back to the regular program


torsten <>
germany - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 07:15:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

That nifty little Jewel was called "MK4-M3 6X"... and the last one I saw was at a gun show for $700, and I had already spent all my money.
For reasons I don't understand, the cams had "6X" marked on them... so they might not be interchangable... donno'!

Nom de Plume...

I'm runnin' 190SMKs in 308 with 42.5 of Varget, and getting same velocities, and no signs of pressure.
44 of Varget with 175 SMKs is my basic 308 load... a lotta the guys here, shoot that load.

Which bullets, at what velocities, and what ranges are the errors?
Are you using Sierra III, or "Infinity"?
Inquiring minds wanna know.

The "Luminous" reticle has the fat side bars coated with glow paint, (but not the cross wires). You have to shine a flashlight in the eyepiece to make it work (not something I'd wanna' do in "Indian Country").
Then it glows for a few minutes, like your watch, and goes out.
I don't see the point of it.

Gotta go get money...


Pablito <>
Up all night, counting sheep... ain't sex great ;) the, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 10:29:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Regarding Rchel2577 on the Browning A-bolt. I have a composite stalker in 7mm mag. with the boss system on it. And yes it does make it louder,but if your hunting with it the last thing you think about when you are shooting is the noise! I had a primer on a case blow out right after I got it, which required the bolt being replaced. Lucky for me Federal paid for all repair on it. It does shoot extremely well with factory ammo, Fed.165 premiums group around 5/8 of an inch, had one group of 1/2 inch with Win.150 gr.,and Win.175 gr. get around 5/8 inch also. I am going to have a friend of mine take one of the ported expansion chambers and put ports in it but at a 7 degree forward angle. We'll see if that improves the noise a little. If you get one with the boss on it, there is a ring on the base of the collet that you adjust to zero the boss in, use a little lock-tight on it or the ring will eventually lose that zero starting place. The trigger is adjustable to 3 lbs., the palm swell on the stock gets a better feel when shooting. All in all I love my Browning, I do all my hunting with it, and I have never had a problem in the field with it. Hope this helps you out.
Randy <>
Mo, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 11:12:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
Could you check on Gun-Fun's availablity on the M70 Stealth in .308? My local dealer is having problems locating one. I figured that I could pick it up and go shooting all in one trip if they can obtain it. Any help is greatly appreciated.

All you Hogs going to Storm Mountain,
Real jealous, have fun and be safe. See you next year.

Semper Fi!!

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 19:43:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito and all,

Saw the MK IV -M3 6X when in production. It offers good field of view and sufficient magnification for most work. I sure it quit selling because everyone is buying higher power scopes. To bad, nice bit of gear. Luckily, Leupold is only 90 miles way. Maybe Garth Kendig can find me an old used one?

Thanks for the Varget load for 190's. I am leaning toward 190's for all my shooting. Just love them. 175's next choice.
See we all settled on about the same .308/175 load. Nice to be validated.

Use Lapua and Federal brass in my bolt guns and Fed 210M primers.

Boots Obermeyer indicated they were seeing some rough throats with Varget use. Tried VV N140 and did not have good luck. Will try again.

The Sierra Infinity program is the one giving me errors. CONSISTENTLY!
Seems to always be at least 2 MOA off. Usually high. Still, it gets me dialed in...then I creat my own tables from actual shooting. Did a math computation and error is right at 9% high, throughout the range spectrum.

"Luminous" reticles are something I wouldn't use in "indian country", either. It does have some applications for late evening varminting and I wanted to give it a try. Think it's a useful gimmick.

Speaking of...has anyone used the "illuminated" scopes yet. I haven't, but would be concerned that the illuminated croshairs could be seen from the direct front of the scope. Can any of you confirm or deny that?

All for now,


P.S. Still have "no nom de plume". Suppose that's what's going to stick?

Wes Howe (No nom de plume) <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 19:47:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

The rchel2577 post was one I posted from my wife's e mail address a while back. The post was 2 years ago, and I just now bought a rifle. I didn't go with a Browning though. I was thinking about the Savage(yes I'm poor) but found a Howa at a nice price, and it feels more balanced w/ a smoother action than the Savage. My scope rings come in tomorrow, so I'll pick up the rifle, have them mount the scope, and patiently wait to go to the range to sight it in and test ammo. I got Fed.168 Gold Medal, Black Hills 168 Match Moly and Winchester Supreme 168 Nosler Match. I'll see how those work in it, and go from there.
Richard Stark <>
Fresno, California, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 20:42:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
Next is a .223. I'm trying to do the same thing as Bravo, sell my other things so I can focus on two rifles. I'm selling my Sig 9mm,
12 ga. Winchester and Ruger 10/22 so I can afford it. I want a Bushmaster, but can't have it in CA. So I guess I have to move or buy it out of state and keep it out of CA, with relatives or something. I'll have to take vacations to visit it and take it to the range. How sad is that?
Richard Stark <>
I wish I wasn't in, California, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 20:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes, Try IMR 4895.. I always go back to it after trying the newer miracle powders. 42.0 gr seems to be the sweet spot for every .308 rifle I have. My barrels look brand new. VV N135 shoots very sweet but I think I'm the only one in the US that finds it temperature sensitive. Locked up a bolt hard with my 41.8 gr Quantico load when shot for the first time at Florida range. Want to try N140 in 10 twist rifle with 175s. Can't get N140 to shoot in 12 twist rifle with 168 SMKs. New TAC powder looks interesting... can't find it in PC Pinellas Cty. Usual Darwin Award warning for reload data.

Bill971 <>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 21:00:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito...I think I have a .308M loopie cam that is mismarked. 'Cause mine says "M" but it tracks all of my data in Yards. No Sh*t dude. So how would I find out for sure if thats the case? Or how would one go about getting a cam that is for sure marked for yards?

I got my data cards from Schwiebert Precision and this scope tracks it almost dead on. Damn, I'm just now a little disapointed in Leupold. Still a great scope. I just want my gear to be what it is supposed to be and do what it says it does. Guess I'm a little picky in that aspect.

Bravo...Looks like I will be tripping that way in March or April. Depending on how spring fire season unfolds here. After three years of getting slammed, I'm ready for one more really good ass busting fire season....Like you guys are having out west now! But I really would like to have some down time to visit the daughter too.
Cory <>
USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 21:26:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Folks, Does anyone know a dealer that has the oft lauded Winchester Stealth available in 308 Win.? Thanks for the help.
sam <>
york, pa, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 21:54:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Now done with work, I can get back to shooting stuff.


Is the scope a MK4-M3, or a M3-LR... I'm assuming it's an M3-LR.
Send me the markings on the cam... the numbers, over what moa's marks.
Does it not match your shootng, or not match somebody's data card.

There are a lot of bad data cards going around... like the kids telephone game... someone reads one, and copies it as their one... the next person reads that, and copies it as their own... etc.

The cam data on the Premier site is for nada, but he got from Lupita, so he's convincd that it came from God, even though God now says "I think we got problems".

The 190 SMK will follow the 308M cam fairly close if you launch it at 2620-ish. It'll run under the cross hairs a few inches from around 600 to about 800, but is right back on at full range. It's a GREAT bullet.
The 175, and 190 are putting the little 168, slowly out to pasture.
Don't be dissapointed in Lupita... stuff like this happens, and most guys just say "You can't trust cams" and walk away from it.
They don't look to find what the errors are, and if there is a pattern to to it... and the don't talk to Lupita, they just bitch (or worse, whine), and nothing gets fixed... this ballistics stuff is not a rock hard science... it's part science, part trial and error, and part black magic... and if Lupita gets complaints, but no data, they have to dismiss it as user ignorance... which is totally justified, if you heard the dumb complaints they get. I have been calling Garth for almost a year, before he started listening to me seriously.

Keep the faith... M3's rule! ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 22:15:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the info and the heads up! There's a Mk4 M3 6X on Ebay, but too much for my billfold right now. They want $855 minimum, and it's a duplex. Not for me! Heck, I gave less than that for my mildot 10X. Guess it goes into next years capitol expenditures along with the "rack grade" M-14 semi. Hopefully the price will come down some, as nobody has bid on it yet, and it's almost done. Got into some trouble on another site, seems I offended some FAL groupies when I mentioned that the FAL was a "T" rifle when the US was looking into the replacement for the Garand. And the '14 won ;-) Trivia: the FAL "T" rifles were Canadian pattern, and made by H-R!
Bravo <>
still lookin' like a jack-o-lantern!, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 22:25:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gentlemen: (You're gettin' the benefit of the doubt) I'm up to my eyeballs in the semester. If anyone wants to say anything to me, use my e-mail. See you in December.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 22:54:35 (ZULU) (your host address:


You posted earlier about the 190gr. win mag @ 2,950 fps being the SEAL's load. Do you know what weapon system they are utilizing that load in?

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 23:38:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know anything about the Hornady 110 grain .308 AMAX TAP URBAN load? How it performs, penetration?

Sorry for so many posts today, guess I'm just excited about getting a new rifle.

Good luck to everyone who will be at Storm Mountain, and to anyone who's having any matches coming up.

God Bless!
Richard Stark <>
Growing Tired of, California, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 00:06:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Drag Bags:

Just opened the box from TacticalTaylor - with a woodland camo drag bag. Hogs - this puppy is very well made... Sarge recommended it - thanks Sarge.

It has metal zippers, 3 outer pouches - that appear to be quite roomy. There are 3 quick clip tie-downs for your rifle inside - as well as a muzzle slot. The shoulder straps appear to be well made and easy to adjust. The price was 215.00 as shown on their website.

Now - I need to take it out and get it dirty abit - see how it holds up.

Here's the url for tactical taylor:

Enjoy! - Hope to see lots of youn'z @ Storm Mountain this weekend.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 00:28:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

I don't have any experience with the Urban TAP, however the TAP 168gr didn't impress me. The case would not extract fully and it wasn't near as accurate as the Federal GM. If in a tactical environment, I'd have probably been done in, if I needed another shot. Thanks for the tip on the M70 Stealth. I'd love to be able to get one. The local Gunshops seem to be having problems getting the .308.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 00:49:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

John McGrath...
Go here.

You guys going to Storm... god's speed, and whack "Downtown" one for me.


Pablito <>
Loadin' up the truck... it ain't raining tomorrow., USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 00:52:26 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks them are some terrific pics! That looked like a 26" barrel on that bad boy! You dont happen to know who is making the barrel by chance? I have been scouring the web for info on the SEAL's sniper system but not much out there that I have been able to find. Them dudes are the baddest. (nothing against the other operators)Are they using the Unertel scopes also or the MK4LR's.

Thanks Again Lito

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 02:22:22 (ZULU) (your host address:


I actually posted the url for the .300 operator's equipment early on th 19th. The guy who took the pictures is stationed in Bosnia and posted the link on the forum. Interesting stuff!

Well I am going to go do a little shooting tomorrow, hopefully I can absorb some skill from Mr. Undude at the range! At the minimum it is always fun to watch him put little holes in paper.

MIchael Sheehan <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 02:49:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes Howe?

Wes Howe? Hmmmmmmmmm?

Howe de Plume? Hmmmmmmmmm?

De Plume?



Awshitski- writers block, maybe monday.................... ;-)

Turrets! Turrets! Turrets! *;-0
I was just funnen with ya Cam Man!


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 02:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick, and 'lito not attempting to argue the error is possible, even I can make a mistake (or several thousand) I had a short talk in Lewis w/ Gene (Recon) Econ about M3-M1 differences.
I think our differing ideals on the use of snipers and their kit is getting in the way - Rick I talked with you and Mike Haugen about this - re getting some PPCLI snipers into SOTIC.
We Cdn's don't send sniper out with Platoons, for any idiot (or at least one of the pl) can (had better) engage a tgt w/ a C7A1 to 600m (as long as his Elcan hasn't fallen apart). We got a Vandoo (R22eR) Sgt Maj. who got an overly agressive individual in FYR around '96 @ over 900m with his C7A1 (not bad since the tgt was in the prone)
IMHO sniping is 90% observation and as part of a Recce Platoon that is its main goal - eyes and ears . I think that sometime the BDC scopes make people a little rash - wanting to blast a path to victory rather than sucking back and thinking about what it is they are their for...
Keeping in mind the Elcan has a Cam. What I have observed is that w/ a cam/BDC Whatever, is that the shooter seem to take less time actually working out the range - and seems to subconsiously think Hell if I miss I'll just change the range setting.
If you miss w/ tgt knobs what do you do quick - well mil dot holdovers (and think)

'lito - 120 yds Hey why do I have that M4 again?????????????

Like I said just my thoughts

And now to piss brother Bravo off.
Hey Stan take a G-3. FN, and a M-14 and test them STOCK. Hey come up and I'll loan you my SLR L1A1 and H&K and we can go beat them up.
What's the better gun (for infantry)? My Money is all on the FN.
You really think the US was willing to take a foriegn weapon then.
Hey it took you thirty years to admit the M60 was utter garbage, yet troops gut stuck with it anyway.
Anyway Bravo gime a shout, you coming north to play? I'm stocking beer and ammo for ya.

Kevin <>
Canada - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 03:00:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bro Kevin, you can't piss me off speaking the truth. I'll give you the FAL on points, but here's where the clincher comes in: imagine your FAL made by a dozen different companies and then parted together with no fitting. If any one company made the M-14, then I think it'd be the equal easily of the FAL. The word is (with pics to prove it) all 50 of the HR made FAL's are still at Quantico, and they won't let them go. Interesting part is that they wear wood furniture! From what I understand, this is why the Devine M-14's are so hard to find, a better M-14 all made under one roof, using real parts. Now for the scuttlebutt: Springfield Inc. is supposedly much worse for the wear lately, as the receivers (this is what I've heard) are cast in Brazil and machined here. Supposedly mine, being earlier vintage, were completely made by Beretta in Italy (receiver only)! Dunno that I truly believe this or not, but that's what I've heard. As for the '60, I declared it a dog in my early teens. Dad gave me the lowdown on it while watching one in inaction. Seems he was saddled with one in SEA (doorgunner). As for coming north to play, I'm thinking hard on it. Really hard. Don't worry about the ammo, but a M-14 and AR mag or two would be helpful ;-) As with most stuff, it'll all boil down to how much cash I've got in my pocket a couple of weeks before hand. Unless I still feel this bad, then I'm not leaving the house.
Bravo <>
I can't stalk with sinuses glowing, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 03:56:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
The Tap Precision never really became a choice for me. I like Hornady, but! I had heard good things about Black Hills 168 match and the new (not that new anymore)Winchester 168 Nosler match, and who wouldn't feed their rifle good ol' Federal 168GM. I figure with those 3 I'll be OK in seeing what my rifle likes. I just want to know about the 110 for an urban defense situation. Most anyone would agree the .308 (in most weights)is too high powered and penetrative for an apartment complex setting. But if the 110 minimizes the risk, and the only thing you have nearby to ward of burglars and gang bangers is a .308 rifle, it might not be a bad choice. I just want to learn more about it before I consider it for a neighborhood defense round.
Richard Stark <>
My wife dislikes when I complain about, California, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 06:26:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
John McGrath...

I'm not all that familar with the Seals system... but the scope shown is a B&L 10X Tactical... one of the top scopes around.

Jeez, you don't gimme no respect ;)
Fill your pockets with lead shot, so you stay put when you shoot.
'member... one shot, one "Clank"! :))

Actually, if I had to have one scope on a general purpose tactical rifle, it would be one of the M3's (MK4 if it was a good week;).

But the 308-M24 I just built, has a M3-LR, and a B&L 10X tac, in taperd rings... and they will swap over, without loosing zero.
And the 300WM I'm making this winter, will have a MK4-M3, and B&L tac combo also... Best of both worlds... ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 10:31:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


Sorry about missing your post on the 19th. Thanks a ton for the pics. They Rule!

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 11:02:26 (ZULU) (your host address:


Read through the roster and looks like you could answer this. Will the old M118 Match/Special Ball track similarly on the LR M3 with the 30.06 cam, as it could be used for Fed GM 175gr/M118LR? I've got a can of it waiting to get shot up back home.


Darren <>
overseas tour almost over..., UK - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 12:48:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, are you telling me my springfield m21 reciever is made in Brazil? That fact alone does not bother me that much, imbel comes from there etc.... but is the quality what it should be??

Fal vs M1a- Ill take the m1a thank you. I own both now and I just think the m1a feels better in my hot sweaty little hands. oh, and the sights on the m1a ROCK. Hate the sights on the fal. just a personal thing. The fal is a great rifle- just not as good as an M1A.

Rick <>
isnt anything made in the US, anymore?, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 14:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,
OK, what do I hafta do to get an M70 Stealth? I'm offering a sister or two in trade (take your pick, I have 7). Anyone know of somewhere I can get one in .308? I'll travel, lie, beg... for one.

Do you have a second choice on a beam scale? I'm having trouble finding an RCBS 10-10 locally. How are the heavier Lymans?

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 15:10:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick: with things the way they are, I'm kind of GLAD M1A receivers aren't made here. If the Garand receivers being made now, here, are any indication, I want it made somewhere else! I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that your M-21 isn't up to snuff, maybe. Springfield Inc, different than Springfield Armory, hasn't filled M1A's with US GI parts for a long time. I'm not calling them bad, just not as great as possible. The only Springfield Inc part on mine is the receiver, and this is as it should be, but I've never broken a cast commercial M1A part. I'm hearing about them now though from people with new rifles. And of course, S Inc being how they are, they promised this guy his rifle back within 30 days, now over 45, for a blown out op rod. As for the FAL, in my case, it was virtually a tossup. What made my decision? It's my opinion that if you're gonna toss a scope on a battle rifle, the M-14's are the best chassis for that. But the sights and trigger didn't hurt ;-) If you're in doubt, run a case or so through it, then you'll know! HA! Or you could get one new from Ron Smith, if they're Ron's standard work, they'll be great! In either case, filling it with for-real US GI parts from the CMP would be my first effort (they're cheap too!).

Richard: The Nosslers haven't ever been that great for me, but as always, YMMV.
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 15:20:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,
For those of you who are looking for the Stealth, I called Winchester and was told that the .308 is still in production (whew!) but they don't expect their next supply 'til 30 Dec. I was advised that Turners Outdoorsman, somewhere in Cali has a few available. Other than that, they are on Backorder in .308. I'm still looking, however, if anyone has another source or of someone with one on the shelf. And, hell, I'll even still throw in a sister.

Semper Fi!!,

Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 16:01:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick - good point on the FN sights, our C1A1's disk sight is a great step up (my thoughts). The only bitch I have with the FN is that the sights are on diffent parts - front on the upper and the rear and the lower rec. In a word Dumb. Break the gun open and more times than not you can lose you zero by a couppel of inches.

'lito - I've played with MKIV M1's and M3's but I've had my B&L for almost ten years now and am quite familiar with it (ya- to lazy to learn a new system well)

Bravo - I'll send you some pics of our last shoot.
Kevin <>
Canada - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 16:12:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys, help me out here a little. I've got a stack of Colt 20 rounder AR mags, and I want to cut the base plate lock spring out of 'em. I know it's just the 3 little pop rivet looking things on the front of the mag, just not sure how to do it without molesting the mag tube. Why? Gonna put the Bushmaster rebuild kit in 'em, and the lock spring isn't used. Besides, it's steel, and aluminum don't rust! Thanks!
Bravo <>
mebbe drown germs in hooch?, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 16:33:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
Here is my delima. I have a extreem left wing, lead me i'll follow,no cajones,gutless sheep,wanna be socialist LT. that I work for that needs to get some come-upence concerning The Bill of Rights! Yea Yea I know sometimes its better to leave the poor smucks alone in the rose garden and move on to more important things in life. But I'm just one of those that you knock me down, do a good job first time cause I'm GONNA GET UP if you don't kinda guys.

A few weeks ago there was a reference to the US CODES that defined the term milita as used in the 2ND ammendment. I have been digging in the archives and the USCodes for the better part of a week and now I get lil yeller & blue dots on my eye lids when I blink.Daaaaaammmmmm there must be at least 1000 posts in July and August. Can and will some one give me a hand on this search?
Vern <>
Cooling down Houston, TX, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 17:51:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, Bravo, Bravo, your killing me dude. My m21 not up to snuff? Holy overpriced lead thrower Batman. you are making me sweat. I gotta tell ya im glad that lifetime warranty thing is in place over this rifle. I have contacted Springfield several times to to ask general stupid questions and make a few "suggestions" about the products they sell. ya know what? they have gotten back to me the SAME DAY through email almost everytime. (im starting to develop a relationship with Deb at Springfield Inc that my wife doesnt appreciate :-)) I dont know what your 1911 experience has been, but from my m1a standpoint its been all good. We will see if that holds true if something breaks. I wont know where to take my FAL if something happens to it. Did Mr. Ron Smith build your M1A?

Rick <>
getting buyers remorse, in a bad way, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 18:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick: I've got the same thing going with Debbie in the custom shop ;-) She's all right, but we had a falling out some years back over a custom 45 that wasn't STARTED 6 months after I sent them the dough. I'm not telling you that you'll ever have ANY problem with your M-21, just that most of the parts aren't US GI spec (not hardened properly, etc). Most of the time, S Inc is good about getting back to me, but they gave my last e-mail to the kid (sounded like a kid on the phone anyway - Buck) that worked on my 45, and he didn't want to return it. Mebby I can understand that though, as there were some disparaging comparisons to Glock in there. I've never had a S Inc part break on me, and I've run some of their rifles into the ground. I just *prefer* US GI parts, as it helps me sleep at night, knowing that I won't hear a "click" when I should hear a "bang". From here on out, my suggestion is to get a Smith Ent or S Inc stripped receiver and let Geoff Corn build you a rifle. Ron makes good stuff (although a little high priced), but won't get the accuracy the way Geoff can. I've had folks tell me that I'm lying 'cause you can't get a 1/3 MOA M-14 type. But I've got witnesses ;-) When I sent this S Inc M1A NM to Geoff, he told me that he gave it to his apprentice to identify the non-US GI parts. He chucked ALL the parts with the exception of the brand new US GI op rod I sent him, and this rifle was bought in 93 or 94. Or you can do what I did, run it 'till something breaks, but you'll probably have a LONG wait!

Vern: send 'em to me. I really LOVE people who take an oath to protect something they've never read. Understand the Constitution? Hell, I've ate and drank it. Besides, I can't stand people who take our way of life for granted.
Bravo <>
off to clean the 45 up, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 20:08:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have been thinking of adding a second rifle to my collection. No particular reason except I have an itch. On my list of things to consider was a Win 70 Stealth, but they are hard to find now days and a Tikka Master-Sporter. Dont know much about the Tikka, but have heard very good things about them on other boards. My concerns are as follows: 1) Components- would it be difficult ot fnid parts for them as in rings, bases, magazine and such.
2) The Stock- I cant tell if the stock is laminated or not. It feels like simple wood, so i am worried that ot would not do well in the field, especially in rain or high humidity.

The price was not that bad 798 if I remember correctly and the action and trigger were great. A heck of a LOT smoother than my Rem. My understanding is that the trigger comes adjustable and the owners manual actually tells how to do it. Obviously American lawyers havent reamed the company yet. Dont mean to start a manufacturers war, but wanted some words of wisdom from people who know considerably more than I. Thanks for the help.
Laszlo <>
TX, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 20:46:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Vern L. Hamn: The portion of Title 10, United States Code, you were asking about:

10 USC:

Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes
? (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
? (b) The classes of the militia are -
? (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

Sec. 312. Militia duty: exemptions
? (a) The following persons are exempt from militia duty:
? (1) The Vice President.
? (2) The judicial and executive officers of the United States,
the several States and Territories, and Puerto Rico.
? (3) Members of the armed forces, except members who are not on
active duty.
? (4) Customhouse clerks.
? (5) Persons employed by the United States in the transmission
of mail.
? (6) Workmen employed in armories, arsenals, and naval shipyards
of the United States.
? (7) Pilots on navigable waters.
? (8) Mariners in the sea service of a citizen of, or a merchant
in, the United States.
? (b) A person who claims exemption because of religious belief is exempt from militia duty in a combatant capacity, if the conscientious holding of that belief is established under such regulations as the President may prescribe. However, such a person is not exempt from militia duty that the President determines to be noncombatant.

PJ <>
Houston, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 21:05:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Without opening a can of legal worms,
How do the anti-militia laws of some states (such as California) come into play regarding the codes?
Richard Stark <>
Banana Republic of, California, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 21:35:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo : et all

I really don't want to get another Political Country started but Damn it gives me a case of red a** when some insecure wannabe socialist piece of sh^* trys to tell me that the BILL of RIGHTS don't mean what it says, and therefore needs interpritation. It took years for our forfathers to write that document because they wanted to be sure all the i's were dotted and t's crossed. I know better than let some dork lead me into this conversation but I just don't understand the opposit way of thinking. I like 4/5 of the population of this country have relitives that either grew old before their time or died in some far off place, they never even heard of, untill they got there, in order for future generations to have a better life and maintain the RIGHTS that we still have and by damn it means something to me!

On oaths, you got it my friend. My first oath was in 1952 at the age of 16 to my country and the CORPS. I beleaved it then I beleave it now! My second oath was in 1985 when I became a Deputy Sheriff, I beleaved it then I beleave it now! The kikker is the LT. I refered to is a cop!! His statement was " I dont beleave in a society where we have to be armed" " Under an "ideal society we would not need guns" then started in on the "WORLD ORDER" thingie! My question was "would you like to live in a society as portrayed in the movie SOYLANT GREEN? World order has never survived! The Roman Empire fell Gingas Khon fell Napolian fell the USSR fell and Cuba is going down the tubes! Don't know about you guys but I for one dont want some groupe of forign shmucks (BLUE POTS) telling me to share my hard earned proceeds with some one that has never hit a lick at a snake. Didn't think much of them in 52-53 and have lost more liking as time passes.

The Constitution/Bill of Rights and more importantly the Holy Bible ain't broke! They Dont need fixin!

Man sorry about that! as you may be able to tell I'm just a little more than pi$$$d. I got to work for this guy for right now. WEB MASTER IF YOU WANT TO STRIKE THIS LONG DRAWN OUT POST I'LL UNDERSTAND!

Vern 10 - 8
Vern <>
USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 21:35:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Richard: this is a more muddied question as time goes by. The breif statement is that the US Constitution is the United States Constitution, and therefore does not apply to California, as California is an independent state. Which is as it should be. Recently things are more complex, because we're now citizens of the United States, not United States Citizens, nor citizens of the individual state. This was done for taxation purposes, as the federal government found it awkward to request that the several states collect taxes and give them to the federal government (since the federal government has no jurisdiction within a soverign state). Where it gets interesting is the fact that the US Constitution is embodied in some form in the individual state Constitutions, often as a statement of "and no laws shall be passed that abrogate the rights embodied in the United States Constitution". This is not needed, but no one is willing to roll the dice on a state constitutional convention to rid the state constitution of it, mostly it was forced upon the states by the victors from the War Of Northern Aggression. Also, specifically on militias, the militias are the rights of the individual states, and not of the federal government, who only defines WHO is militia, not when they can be called, which can only be done by the Governor. Thus, if California deems there will be no militia, they are completely within their rights. As it should be. The idea was that if things got poor in one area, there were others to move to, with like minded individuals naturally congregating to control their own state in the manner of their choosing.
Strict Constitutional Bravo on a comeback <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 22:07:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
First - sorry about my english, i am from Slovakia (small country in Middle Europe).

I read "Accuracy Facts -- .308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield" from Bart Bobbitt. In all respect to supersniper Bart Bobbitt, more things, which he write, is nonsens.

I have another facts:
I buy czech hunting rifle ZKK 600 in caliber 30-06. accuracy this rifle was not good - about 1,5 MOA and more (depend on ammo). when i fire more than 5 rounds, barrel was very hot and accuracy goes dramaticaly down. logical - barrel was thin for better accuracy.

I changed the barrel with new (in same caliber), cold hammer-forged barrel, without detract the diamater. diameter on muzzle is 22mm (0.87"), diameter at chamber is 36mm (1,42"), overall length 670mm (26,4"). naturally, i must also change the stock.

next, i handload ammunition: 168gr HPBT MK Sierra, with Vihtavuori Oy N550 (load 55gr). and result was very impresive:

at 90m (90m is length of my test tunnel - it is 98yards) was three shots in one hole (diameter of this hole was less than 10mm, 0,4").
after 20 rounds has barrel only warm and accuracy still as on start.

i shot more group, but any no more as 1,5cm - 0,6" (i am not supersniper and my riflescope is only 7x50).

now, i will quote Bart Bobbitt: Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.

when will 30-06 military standard in all NATO country and manufacturers will focused on this caliber for sniping rifle, then Bart Bobbitt will explain, why the 30-06 is better as 308Win.

i will again quote Bart Bobbitt: Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on
the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

i have one question - why have not this problem another sniper caliber, 300 WinMag? and next fact - with more slow burned powders has 30-06 no air space in case (e.g. AA 4350).

at the end - one Slovakian proverb: any fox praise own tail. that's is also fact.

F. Petrp <>
Bratislava, Slovakia - Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 22:27:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

On M118/Special Ball... yup, it should.

Get the 10-10 scale from,

Don't buy standard loading equipment locally... get it mail order, and save a bunch.

Don't appoligize... you're in "Constitution Country"... Just give Bravo a slight excuse, and he'll tell you more than Patric Henry could about it... He's a top guy in Constitutional stuff.

As to .308 vs 30-06... HA, there are better ways to waste time!


Pablito <>
I good day at the range beats anthing (allmost)... M24 - 5 rounds, including CCBS = .27"... a happy camper in the, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 00:10:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks a heap man! Now I gotta go pull this puppy up and study it so I dont let my mouth runamuck. This is going to be a loosing battle but I got to try. I figgure if you set out to teach someone something new the major requirement is the student has to have some common sense. Well shoot I just shot myself in the foot cause this dork don't meet the minimum requirement.

Vern 10 - 8
Vern <>
Wet & Rainy Houston (at last), TX, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 00:30:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thank you for your time and detail!
My father was born in England in 1921. After he was 18 he served in the U.S.Army (Cavalry) in World War II , and did undercover work in Korea. He later worked in CA corrections, retired as an ATF inspector and continued to serve as a mission coordinator for Civil Air Patrol almost until he died in 88'. Even though he may not have had a special or notable role in the goings on of this country, he still recieved, as many have and many of you will, a ceremony and a salute at his funeral commemorating his service to his country. He even recieved commemoration ( including 7 glass encased dolls ) from the head of Japan for finding 3 Japanese students whose plane had crashed in the mountains. It sickens me that so many people take for granted the service that people like my father, and many of you, have given to OUR country. I think he would be saddened (as we all should be) by the degeneration, ignorance and ungratefulness the majority of our country has undergone. Please forgive me for the long rant, just showing my gratitude for those of you that stand up for an ungrateful and sometimes undeserving nation. God bless you all!
Richard Stark <>
What has the world come to?, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 00:38:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Frank; your words are wise and to the point. There is no evidence to me that .308 is more accurate than 30-06. The case is just more suitable for modern powders and the shorter action is preferred. Over here we Shorten the action and then bore out the chamber throat so long we can't get decent accuracy unless we change the factory barrel. Actually that happens in 30-06 too and in most American Rifles. You're observation that if 30-06 were NATO preference it would be immediately the best. probably right on too!
I must remember about the fox!~ The thing about more gentle push is utter nonsense.
Bravo; right on target. U.S. Code bedamned anyway.. The Militia is the army of the people. It has no commander, no Generals, nothing to lead it but the love of freedom and a will to preserve it. It is as much in the heart of the people as in the arms they carry. It's powered by a will to be free at all cost and willingness to sacrafice to keep the dream alive. Every free person is a member of the Militia except the cowards who hide under bed waiting for others to protect their rights. Militia is not neccessarily an Army but it is an idea to remain independent and free and a willingness to pay the price to keep it. The Militia was here before the flag and before the congress and it will never go away until men's hearts are changed and they give up their freedom for security and comfort of the bureaucracy as many have done already. The Militia is weakened by over prosperity and crippled by dependence on welfare of others but it still lives.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 00:55:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: thanks for the kind words, hope you weren't laughing when you wrote 'em ;-) Daggumit that's sharp Patron! Is that the one you just built? You sure I can't jab you into a 30-06 debate? HA!

Vern and Richard: Patron 'Lito meant to capitalize "SLIGHT". I make cracks about Cuba because I figure it would be significantly easier to raise 3 or 4 batallions of trained, willing individuals, ready to fight and die to "liberate" Cuba, with civvie weapons and no support than it would be to get the 250,000 people required to move to Wyoming (pop approx 0.5 Mil) and actually turn out and vote intelligently. That's all it would take to revoke the federal income tax in that state, and a whole lot more. Need proof? How many votes did Embassador Keyes get in the primaries? Oh, but I forgot, Dubbya Bush is a constitutional scholar too, right? :-(

Now who the heck is Bart Bobbitt?
Off my soap box now Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 01:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

It's the new one.
Just spoke to Ken, and the "308 Towed", is running .3'-ish.


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 01:42:53 (ZULU) (your host address:


Hey man - 'Fat barrels rule!' aint that right 'lito...

Ducking for incomming from all the skinny barrel dudes...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 01:47:25 (ZULU) (your host address:


Fat barrels, M3'z, and Shee... Aw, never mind.

Pablito <>
Lookin' for love, ewe know where!... in the good ol', USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 01:53:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

If we're choosing up sides my Kreiger not-as-heavy-as-Ken's barrel gives .3 ish too ;-)
Bravo <>
cough less, shoot more, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 01:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Oh you know Bart, Bravo; He's the one had the Argentine wife with the butcher knife! Elana or something like that wasn't it. He writes
"short" stories nowadays and dreams that "short" things are better than long things! I daknow! Have one of your brews there comrade!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 01:55:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
CRAP!!!! - Well the weather now has us so far behind schedule that I will not be able to make SMTC Sniper fun days. :-( You guys have fun and Good Luck! I was really looking forward to just setting back and watching for a change. It would have given me a chance to BS with you guys and exchange lies. Oh well next year!

Kevin - Target turrets verses single revolution knobs is an arguement that will not end. I truely feel that .25 moa knobs have no place on a sniper rifle. That is my feelings and experience from 68 to present. When a sniper fires he is shooting for the chest not a button. A .25 moa scope moves the strike of the bullet only 2 inches at 800. I can not and no one can CONSISTENTLY shoot 2 inches at 800. If you can't shoot it don't add the confusion to the game. The PALMA team changed their sights to .5 moa because of the problems arising from .25 moa sights. As far as one sniper per platoon, we don't have them at that rate either. We also make sure of our range before comitting to squeezing the trigger. Only a dam fool shoots and figures, hell I correct later. We also hold for errors by mils not "dialing in new dope". That is a fools error. The main thing is as long as you are aware of the possiblity of the error then fine. Go with what you are comfortable in using. But you stated that an error in revolution is as common as an error in putting 6 on the cam instead of 7. That is not even close to fact and that is what got me concerned. I have seen that error, but I have seen the full revolution error many times. On getting some guys through SOTIC, contact your liason with the US military to contact USAJFKSWCS and ask for some slots. There are slots for the ever present "Selected DOD personnel". I have no idea what the chances would be for your guys but we have had two personnel from the German Army come through. They could only say no, what the heck.

30.06 vs .308 - Please not again! Buy the one you like and favor and have a ball! Super sniper, only in the minds of those that proclaim themselves to be super or ultimate.

Again guys have fun at Storm and I will be testing my students at the ranges tomorrow on one shot one kill at ranges from 400 to 800. This usually weeds some of them out. Only one more week to go and a new batch comes in the following week. GROUND HOG DAY!!!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 02:53:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, Pablito, Richard S. et all

Bravo: Maaannnn wat you said! it sounded like some fillydalfia lawyer. But you gotta know if you be one of them cats dont look to your right cause you got a new shadow standin beside you, me! I LOVE IT!!!!

I'll be serious now! Thanks a ton guys for the response and huge morale boost, I needed that! I'm just tired of irresposible pukes running around with their hand out and no where to be found when it's time to stand up and be counted! Cant even get them to accept an offer of a free ride to the polls to vote, cause they are to busy whinnin about the unsightlyness of people that are standin on the streets(a number of which are vets)because they have no place to go. say " no I dont think the Veterans Hospitals are obligated to take care of those folks, those wars were 8 35 49 59 years ago",and "no way "OUR GOVERNMENT" would do something so foolish as to contaminate the country side with an untested defoliant that would be harmful to those exposed to it, no I dont think we should have to take care of the Senior Citizens, they are a drain on the tax base and have outlived their productive years! Correct me if I'm wrong but with a whole lot of luck we all become SENIORS, what then? BULL SH** GIVE ME A FRIGGIN BREAK!

Thinking maby It's me and maby I need to go buy me some small S. Pacific atoll, put up a perimiter fence at about 500 yrds. and then cap the first puss bucket to trespass, but naw I got some ass to kikk and names to take.

Heston for President!!!

Vern 10 - 8
Vern <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 03:14:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, I just received an e-mail stating the .308 only has "predictable accuracy" out to 800 yards and anything out to 1000 yards is luck. I think it's not the .308's "predictable accuracy" out to 1000 yards, more like the shooter's "predictable ability".
dan <>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 03:14:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Well, I'm on call to get up at 0:dark thirty and assist with storm damage assesment at first light. Hopefully Helena will not strengthen to hurricane force over night.

Bravo, Bravo, Bravo...I like you more and more all of the time. You recognize what Southerners have been saying all along...There was no "Civil War", That would recognize that the war was between citizens of the same country. But is was not. As I was taught growing up, it was between two independent countries. And for the record, it was NOT over slavery. It was over freedom. We fought to be free and the North fought for tyranny. The slavery issue was a propaganda tool used by the Union to villify the Conferderacy. Of course the elite liberal revisionists want everyone to belive that the Confederacy had no right to seceed from the Union and we were all a bunch of slave owning rednecks...Oh well I'll get off my soapbox, sorry. The War of Northern Agression thing gets my juices flowing.
Cory <>
Getting ready to blow away , Florida, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 03:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory: you're 100%. A "civil war" is a war in which two or more factions are fighting for control of a central government. This does not meet the definition of what happened in the War of Northern Aggression, as Jefferson Davis had no more intention to rule Washington DC than George Washington had intention to rule London. Illegal succession? Jefferson Davis was never arrested or brought up on charges. Nothing he or the Confederacy did was in the least illegal or unconstitutional. As for slavery, if it WAS about slavery, why did Lincoln wait SOOO long to abolish it? In basis, this is all I'm suggesting. Get people to naturally congregate in one state (the least populous is Wyoming at 0.5 Mil), and then basically do the same thing, but without the division of the state from the country. Unfortunately, it's too much to ask from people to get them to vote, and yes, I offer to drive and partake in the "get out the vote" effort. Hey, you got the box yet?

Vern: south pacific atoll or Cuba? I can use a shaddow, they catch rounds too. HA!

Brother Bill: If it weren't for folks like you, I would think that folks like us were out in left field. Good to know someone still has fire in the belly. And humor too ;-)

Thanks for the scope dope Master Rick, good to hear I didn't screw up the choice.
Bravo <>
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and lose the, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 04:03:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory, agree with you and the Bravo Brewmister 100%.

All true, and correct.......................

Just don't let a LIB hear you say it!!!!!!!!!

I'm from the great state of Tejas, one of the main reasons we entered into the Union, was the fact that as a REPUBLIC, and a Country on it's own terms to begin with.

Is the fact that in our State Constitution, we RETAINED the Legal RIGHT to Cecede from the Union if we so desired.....................

We were a Soverign nation , before the annexation, and this, if you haven't noticed is WHY the Federal Government owns very little of Texas lands.............and has no way to seize it( for public domain).........

The vast majority is still Privately owned.............YEEHAH!!!!!!!

Two Shoes
In the land that I wish time would forget!!!!!!!!
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 04:21:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just got an AR-15 with a Knight's Armament rail system for the hand guard, the problem is that there seems to be no one that sells the accessories for it such as a sure fire flashlight mount. CFI says they never get the stuff any more. ANY SUGGESTIONS would be greatly appreciated.
Phil Bright <>
Fort Worth, Texas, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 05:24:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
Frank from Bratislavia: Welcome to the Roster!
Vern: I sent ya an e-mail, didn't want to use up a lot of space here on the DR.
I hope the folks going to SMTC this weekend have a great time.
PaulS <>
Columbia, MO, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 05:40:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Unfortunatly, another problem that our nation faces is that when someone has a good idea or cause, everyone says "that's great, I want to be involved", then when it comes down to it, no one is in sight. My wife runs a resource center with activities for children ( we are sponsered by United Way and are in a notoriously high crime/poverty area). Every time we rally for help from adults whose children are actively involed in the program, they all say,"that's great,we'll be there,we want to do something to help our chidren/neighboorhood". When it comes game time, out of a 248 unit complex, we get 1 adult. We average 20-30 kids a day.
The parents of 20-30 kids don't take an active involment in their child's life, and they expect other people to look after their children, and complain about there not being enough people concerned about these kids not growing up addicts and gang bangers. Just like when people don't take a serious stand to preserve their rights, and once the're gone, the same people wonder why out of millions of citizens, only a few serious, dedicated people have the guts to stand by there convictions with or without other people's help.
Everyone wants you to fight there battles for them. And when you don't get enough support to win, you'll find the same group gathered together wanting to know why you lost the battle.
Richard Stark <>
Shooting a new rifle in, California, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 05:52:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
signing off the net.......
displacing to GRID 629585.
ORP = Denny's in Keyser.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 06:40:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
To Laszlo:

Tikka is a fine rifle but it has one big flaw in sniping environment. It´s triggerguard is plastic. Yes, that´s the part that ties up the barreled action to the stock and it is plastic. In normal use (hunting, target shooting in good conditions) this does not matter. In sniping environment (rain, mud, etc.) this rifle can not take the beating a proper sniper rifle should be able to take.

The stock is wood, not laminated but wood. As far as I know Tikka does not produce ANY rifle with a laminated stokc at this time.

Components: Rings can be bought from most manufacturers, still Sako-made rings with the plastic ring inserts are the best. They cost around 100 USD/pair. You can produce sloped bases in about 15 minutes and the scope tube WILL NOT BEND. BTW Sako sells only sets that have the rings and bases, because Tikka has a base already machined to the action. No need for Picatinny rails unless you just want them. Magazines are manufactured only by Sako and they might be scarce in the US.

If I were you I would use the 789 USD to buy a Rem 700 VS as this can be bought for less money. The Finish on Tikkas is better and accuracywise out-of-the-box they might beat Remingtons but for sniping plastic trigger guards and regular wood stock just do not cut it.

In Finland Tikka is so much cheaper that I would pick it over any box-stock Remington. So this is not only a matter of want, but also the financial side might interest you. If not, then buy an Accuracy International and use that one :-)

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 07:19:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

I think the reason that it is said a 308 isn't accurate to 1000yds is because with a factory loading it usually goes sub sonic past 800yds and then its unpredicitable. This is why they have gone to the 175s to try and keep them super sonic. I hand load and push my 168s to 2800fps and they shoot as well at 1000 as 800 if I do my part.

I agree with you 100% on the scopes and dials. I have not only seen it done at nearly every match I have shot in,where your under peressure and shooting at multiple ranges, but have done it myself on more than one occasion. When the 3.5x10LR came out with the 1 MOA dials I jumped on it like a robin on a june bug and never looked back. I have the 4.5x14 on the 6.5x284 but it only needs 25MOA to go to 1000 so I don't normally screw that up to bad!! Keep your powder dry down there and send some of that rain up my way.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 11:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory, Bravo, Two Shoes, et al,
The reason, as it was described to me, for Lincoln aboloshing slavery was to try to coerce the British (who were opposed to slavery) to stop aiding the CSA.

On the 2 Alpha's. Are both still operational? Are both still used in the same AO? Just trying to think of other insertion methods.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 11:52:40 (ZULU) (your host address:


What about the Sako TRG21, TRG22? How do these stack up as sniper rifles in your opinion? I have handled the Tikka 595 White Tail Sporter, and it is a very nice rifle. It has all the adjustments of a competition rifle, and is very accurate. I have not had the opportunity to handle the TRG's, but they seem to be more rugged with the synthetic stocks, etc.

Best Regards,

Bill B <>
ky, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill R,

Thanks for the post that defined "Militia". That is about as good an explanation as I've ever heard.

Best Regard,

Bill B <>
ky, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:35:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Greetings from Maryland: I just ordered a McMillan A-4 stock. Now I ask . . . anybody have any experience with it? I have heard nothing but good things, but maybe I haven't ask the right people. My order is in, but I can change it to an A-3 with adjustable everything. Please reply to

Carl Marshall <>
Sabillasville, MD, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:48:03 (ZULU) (your host address:


The A4 is a great stock, heavy, but good. I have the fixed LOP
A4 and the only problem with the McMillan stocks that I have
is they take so long to get. But as with any quality hand-made
piece if gear, the wait is always worth it.

I suggest reading The Undude's review of the A4 stock
that is in the "In Review" portion of the roster

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 12:57:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yote bait,
Damn fine words!!!!! You said it all.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 13:07:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
Which Scope??

I am planning to get a Bushmaster AR, 24" V-match upper, DCM lower. I will be bench shooting at 100-200yrds lite competition at best, likly just for enjoyment. Haveing researched various web sites, I concluded that the Burris Blackdiamond 8x-32x by 50mm would offer me the best balance between proformance and ecconomy ($700). While never haveing owned a Burris, I have heard good things about them. Anybody have any opinions?(snicker!) Or suggestions?

Toy4x4wBFT <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 13:12:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

First question is why do you need such a high powered scope for 200 yds? I'd personally go with a lower power and a larger FOV, especially on an assault rifle, if you were ever to use it as such. In my opinion, no matter what you do with an AR, it's still an assault rifle, especially in 5.56x45.

We are looking for all the Florida shooters, so e-mail me or Cory and we'll try to get together for a shoot.

Semper Fi11
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 13:37:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, m1a guys,

Spoke to Springfield Inc yesterday. In Fact Debbie took a look at this sight and emailed me about the recievers. She told me they are all made here in the good old U.S.A. at Springfields plant, Not Brazil. Bravo, she read your post and wants to talk to you......ooooohhhhhhh your in trouble now!!! :-) She wanted to talk to you about your service experience with Springfield. Im sending you a copy of the email.

Have fun!!

Rick <>
some things are still made , in the, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 14:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the reply. I did not check the trigger guard as I assumed it would be metal. Goes to show what happens when you assume something. I didnt think the stock was laminated, but was hoping. They make a synthetic one, but not for this rifle. As for the AI rifle; I wish I had $5K handy to spen on a new gun, but that is sort of out of the budget for now. I think I will just continue to save and get a custom jobber ina year or so. Thanks again.
Laszlo <>
Round Rock, TX, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 14:35:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
What The F^$K?!!?!?

I just got my Choate, USS Major Plaster stock for my Savage .300WM and it seems something isn't quite right. I used the bolts that came with it as suggested by fellow Rosterfarians and for some reason the fit seems wrong.

Specifically: at the rear of the action where the safety is there is a gap between the top of the stock and the underside of the safety. Initially the two fit together and flush but when I start tightening the forward bolt near the hand guard the rear starts to lift.

Hopefully I have explained this clearly.

Shouldn't this fit flush at the rear? AND something to think about is that if I tighten the stock down so that this is flush the forend and barrel seem at an odd angel.

Of course I could be crazy.


Mars <>
NOT technically corret in Oneonta, NY, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 14:39:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Burris, from what I here, has one of the best customer service departments in the business. I have used a Burris 3 x 9 Signature
Series for several years and have had no problems. However, after buying a Loopie last year, I will never own another brand scope.

looks as though the 3K was well invested. Very Nice
Medulla762 <>
ooooooh that smell, Tx, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 15:18:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Storm turned out to be a dud...I'm going to the range this afternoon to shoot through these winds...need some wind call practice. Very gusty, from 15 to 40 mph. Should prove to be fun! To bad I don't surf anymore, I was by the Gulfo De Mexico this AM and the wave action is outstanding!

Bravo, You have an outstanding idea! If like minds would congregate in the same locale we could have our way of life back...maybe....I tend to think the Fed would have a large problem if we were sucessful. Nope no box from Oops! let me see if they come today. I live in the boonies and they always have problems finding my place.

But I like that idea, and I like Wyoming too. Great hunting. lots of places to shoot. All one would need to do to carry in the Confederated Republic of Wyoming is have a drivers license and a clean record. But. Wyo is a bit landlocked, Cuba would allow for world commerce (by sea) and tourism. then again, Casinos look good too!

Open the CR of W up to arms industries to manufacture what ever they choose. We would get to be the arms manufacturing capital of the planet. No taxes on personal income. no sales tax of food or items necessary to daily life (gas, clothes, beer, etc.). No property tax on property you have bought and paid for. Tax imports and such. I still think one should have a certain level of education to vote or have children. I mean hell people can breed with no thought of qualification to be a parent, or vote and not know what the hell they are voting for (I'm voting for him 'cause he's one ditzy chick described her reason for voting for ALGORE). But you have to jump through many hoops just to have the means to defend oneself? HUH? If people are to dangerous to have a gun would'nt they be too dangerous to have and raise children or vote for their LEADERSHIP?
Cory <>
Still here, but wet and muddy, Fl., USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 15:21:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Storm this weekend:

You hogs that are heading to Storm Mountain this weekend for the Rondevous... take a look here:

Might wanna bring a poncho :)


Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 16:23:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

your Kreiger IS pig fat, for a 14... so hush, or stand with me and Ken ;)

The way I heard it on the "Civil" war, was that it was over economic issues... the south had the raw materials, cotton, tabacco, and grains... the north had the mills, and factory, and tons of free water power, to run the weaving and grinding machines. Except for a few scattered "hippies", the north wasn't opposed to slavery, and gladly returned runaway slaves to the south... they needed the cotton, and raw materials.

The south thought they were getting the short end of the deal, because the north controlled the price of cotton, and grains (as they do now, it the Chicago futures markets)... so the south wanted to get machines from England directly... which would mean the total collapse of the industrial north. The north prohibited the importation of weaving machines to the south, and the south said, "Eat it!".
The slavery issue didn't come up until half way through the war, when Lincoln realized that many slaves were fighting alongside the southerners, and though he could do damage to the southern troups, by causing the slaves to revolt, and go to the northern side...
That's how I heard it... in liberal, New York public schools, admittedly a long time ago... (just after Lee's surender ;)

I'm not gonna beat up on the Choat "Major Plaster's Ultimate Super-Duper Sniper" stock... but lookie, you get only so much hand workmanship and inspection, for a $100.

Glass bed it, and it will serve you well. If you don't know how to Glass it, take it to a decent gunsmith, and have it done. It may not be the prettiest stock around, but they work... while it's at the 'smith, have him grind off the words on the side ;))

What you need a 4x4 in tampa for?... you need a propeller on top, and an oversized skid pan ;)

I think that scope would be the tail waggin' the dog. Even for a .223 benchrest grade Prairie Dog rifle, that would probably be a bit much in the scope department. It sounds cool on paper, but will probably be a dissapointmant at the range.

Thanks. This may well be the best rifle I've put together, and yesterday made me wonder about "CCBS"...Clean, Cold Bore Shots.
This gun is just settling in at around 200 rounds... first bunch were to settle the action in the bedding, and to get some load data.
Yesterday was to sort out the good loads, and next week is against steel at 700 yds.
I found that this barrel shows absolutly mo sign of the CCBS being outside the normal group (a 40-XB button rifled barrel), even thought the groups are small.
The gun I had at Storm last year, was the same, but doesn't shoot as tight (it's 25 years old :(

But as I think back over the years, I've had some guns that did have a first shot out of the normal group... of course I don't have notes... but I'm wondering if this is a button rifled thing vs cut rifling, or is it just a personality trait... some do, and some don't (just like women!).

Any of you'z barrel types have any thoughts... Jerry??


Got an e-mail this morning from Ken "Chainsaw" Hunter, with pictures of his .308 towed (muzzle diameter of 1.25"), next to his last years Rem PSS (Muzzle dia of .75-ish).
He now calls the PSS, "Puny Sniper System" HA!


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 16:24:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm thinking of selling one of my sniper rifles and wanted to get an opinion or two as to what a fair price to ask for would be. I want to sell it to finance that pre-ban M1A I've been wanting. I know what I have invested in the rifle but thought it would help to hear what you guy's thought it was worth. It's a Steyr SSG69 (PI) It has iron sights, double set triggers and green stock.(A spare black stock will be included if payment for it doesn't arrive in the next day or so Hint Hint if you're listening) I have it set up with new 30mm QD Steyr rings and a Leupold M3LR with mil dot reticle,flip ups and ARD installed. There is only one magazine that goes with it, and the stock has a stud in the forend for a Harris bipod. The weapon is in good condition with 500 rounds through it. I do not have the factory box.
I haven't decided to sell it yet but am seriously considering it. I want to aquire the M1A while I still can. At present, I do not have a semiautomatic rifle in my gun safe. I Know, I Know "BAD DOG"
I sure would appreciate any comments from the group.
Don <>
Colorado, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 16:48:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Frank in Slovakia and ".308 vs. .30-06":

First of all, thanks for the brief geography lesson, but there are a few Americans that actualy know where Slovakia is. :)

The observation that .308 is more accurate than .30-06 for match/sniper work probably dates from the deveopment of the first 7.62 NATO National Match ammo in the late '50s and early '60s. This observation was made offer a considerable period of time meauring a large number of match scores from a large number of rifles and shooters. The obervation is no doubt true to a large extent. Also, it has been observed that the newer generation of shorter, fatter benchrest cartriges such as the 6mm PPC are more accurate in absolute terms than a longer, skinner catrige. There are a number of theories that try to explain just why this is so (the "gentile push" theory in the article here is probably not the best of these) but it would certainly seem to be true nonetheless.

Note, however, that 6mm PPC, while phenominaly successful in benchrest competition, is little used for anything else. Why? Because other cartriges do other jobs bettter, despite their shortcomings as benchrest cartriges. So, the quetion is not wether or not .308 is better than .30-06, but wether or not it is better for your application. Yes, .308 may be measureably more accurate in an absolute sense, but do you nessiserily have to care? I say no. What is accurate enough for you? If all you need is 1 MOA (and thats all most of us *realy* need for most applications) then .30-06 can deilver that easily, plus you can push a heavier bullet at the same velocity for better wind resistance downrange, better performance on big game animals, etc. You report very good accuracy from your .30-06, but chances are good that if all of the same care was taken in deveoping your loads using components of the same quality, the same rifle in .308 would probably shoot a little bit better yet. But, since you are getting much better than 1 MOA already from your .30-06, then keep on using .30.06 and be happy (as if you need me to tell you that :)

By the way, when it comes to .300 Win Mag, you will note that it is the same length as the .30-06 but is fatter, so proportionaly it is "shorter and fatter" than the .30-06, and is also more accurate.

And as for .30-06 suffering because of a lack of military research, there may be some truth in that, but then here so much of what the military learns comes from civilians and you have many thousands of people here reloading .30-06, trying to improve it for match and hunting use. You can make it more and more accurate over time and you can make it accurate enough to do most jobs very well, but you cannot make it more accurate than .308 on a consistant basis. At least, not so far. People will keep trying, though. :)

Tom Simpson <>
Columbia, The Heart of Mustard-Base BarBeQue country and home of Maurice Bessenger (SC), USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:01:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Do you know where the concept of hierarchy of law comes from? You know the standard:
1. U.S. Constitution
2. Federal Laws
3. State Constitution
4. State laws
5. Local laws

I was reading the US Constitution but could not find it.

Two Shoes,
The reason Texas can secede from the union is because it is in our state charter, I think that is what the document is called. It also says that Texas can be split into 5 states. The original Texas republic is now known as Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Colorado and I think Kansas.

I heard one time that 98% of Texas is privately owned vs. 50% of Colorado. Of course, that is about the same amount of land. I always read about public lands hunting in the standard gun rags, but I didn't know what it was until I was 18 since there are no public lands in Texas.

The U.S. Constitution can be read at

I am working up a load for a 223 PSS. It has a 1/9 twist according to the box. Does anybody have a pet load with a 69gr SMK?

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:24:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Man I hope this wind lasts till 16-1700. I want to shoot through it.

Lito...that was part of it. They were fighting for freedom. Economic freedom is as valid as any other kind.

I guess I have a "FAT" barrel on my new rifle. #8 contour K&P stainless. I'm in the fat barrel group. Got flutes though. And it is 27 1/2 inches long! Heavy Gun. My wife says...never mind, might be young kids here.

Bravo...Package came today. It was at the Hacienda at lunch.
Cory <>
Windy and warm, Fl., USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:38:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Now that everyone has put their boltface in gear and headed down to Storm.

Here is a sat picture of SMTC taken before Rod bought the Sunset Ranch.

click here for Sat Intel of SMTC <>
time to change the diapers on my little 5 week old son, in beautiful, G3land - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 17:58:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

lets see !
now why did that not work in the first place ? <>
totally lost it , in , G3land - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 18:05:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you don't have economic freedom, most of the others don't count.
It's the same as the Second Amendment... without the 2nd, the others are just intelectual whims of fantacy.

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 18:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for the bedding suggestion. I do not know how to do that so it will obviously be an issue for the local smithy.

Let me ask you this though. Should I be crankin the two bolts down as tight as I can make them or is there a ft lbs thing I should keep in mind?

This should be easier than it is. AND I scraped off that bullshit advertising crap on the side as soon as it came out of the box. Man was that pissin me off. I woulda looked like some kind of billboard on the range. And we know the only redeeming value of a bill board is for target practice with yer 12 gauge.

to be fair though; I like the feel of the stock and expect good things from it.

Play hard!

Mars <>
Pissed off in Oneonta, NY, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 19:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Short post, probably miss a whole lot, I'm at work (for a change).

Rick: I sent you the specifics on my pistol that never was, as for the M1A recievers, that was from a M1-M14 site where a smith famous for his M-14 chassis built rifles "lives". I figured if it was wrong, he'd let me know. Besides, I labelled it as rumor, scuttlebutt, or whatever. If anyone wants to talk to me, that's fine, I'm open.

Shooter: you goofed. It's local (county), state, federal. I've got into this before, and trust me. Examples: prostition and concealled carry. There's no fed CCW, and hookers are illegal. In Nevada, you can have both. In Vegas, you can have a CCW, no hookers.
Bravo <>
Taking any comers, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 19:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Same in New York... you can get a state permit, but NY City says no, so the permit is no good in the city... state does not over ride the city law!

OK... look, action screws are generally set at 40 to 65 INCH pounds.
BUT... that only applies to a action that is sitting well in the stock. the screws don't straighten out the action... the action must have a good fit in the stock, and have no "rocking"... then the screws just keep it in place.
If there is "ROCKING"... like yours, the screws can't fix it, just make it more worser.


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 19:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address:


Again; thanks. Sounds like you're not a fan of this stock.

I'll be readjusting the fit tomorrow and spending a couple hundred hard earned dollars on the range seeing how this has affected my ability to be where I want to be in a pinch.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Still learnin about the tecky stuff but licensed to carry concealed in , NY, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 20:00:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

My 110FP is in a Choate stock with the same gap. It doesn't effect anything, as far as I can tell. It's just asthetically displeasing with the gap there.

Cory, Bravo,
What's the name of our Free State going to be?

Gun Show in town tomorrow and I have a full wallet!!!

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 20:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, I just ordered my Leupold 3.5-10x40 M3 LR for my .300Wm. I'm definately going to give the figures you gave me a try. What loads do you use in your .300WM to get the 2950fps with the 190's? I also just sent off my Leupold 6.5-20x50LR off to Premier Reticles to have the M1 knobs put on and the mildots calibrated and the power ring marked. I just got it yesterday and was sending it out today and my wife said "you just got that, why are you sending it out again?" I tried to explain but she just laughed.
Rob <>
USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 20:59:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Well Hogs - the animals are fed, gun & ghillie packed up - so it's time to hit route 66 and see if I can make it to storm in one piece.

Catch younz later.....

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 21:14:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito: on yankee central, that's a rather good example. Origionally, it was termed "local", and that was supposed to mean "county". However, since then, with the sprouting of metropoli and such, "local" is now considered "city" where applicable. You also are right on with the War of Northern Aggression facts, just stating that there were MANY reasons for Jefferson Davis to "leave the mens club". As for CCB shots, mine is 1/2 MOA at 3 o'clock, as Mike taught me, so I sincerely doubt it's a cut rifled thing ;-)

Mars: I origionally had my fleabag rifle (prairie dog gun) built in Texas, and then got moved to the p-dog shooting heaven of Kansas (right after shooting was banned in the JFK grasslands). There I proceded to shoot those things until accuracy started to decline. A local smith rebedded my action for a whopping $25. It wasn't pretty, as there was squeezie up the sides of the action, but it did shoot again. This was in a 25-06, and shortly there after, the barrel burned out :-( Moral of the story? It can be had cheap, just don't look for cosmetic perfection. HA!

Chuck: I'm not one for changing names. I called my M1A a M-14 because I wouldn't change Jim's name to Jane just because he lost his private parts in an odd industrial accident ;-) As for Cuba, now you know everything I do. Unfortunately.

Cory: there's lots of folks I would love to see voluntarily give up many rights, but let's not forget, the hardest part of being free is allowing our neighbors to be the same. Lemme know if oops busted the bottle.

Shooter: the correct answer to your question is "leftist politicians", most notably Lincoln. This is covered in the 10th amendment. Section 8 of Article I is the place where the federal government gets it's power, and you'll notice that it states that this power applies to a district of no more than 10 square miles (DC). The King of England made all the separate states their own countries, thus the articles of confederation, much like the current EU. How did we loose that soverignty? We're reliving that history now.
Bravo <>
sorry such a long post, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 22:13:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shooter: just hit your Constitution link, and I would highly suggest you not use that one. It's all "messed up" with the revisions since enactment. It's mostly now like a brand new GPS or saying your stock is at $17.43 per share. Great for knowing where you are now, but gives you NO idea of where you were, or where you are going. Imagine thinking "hey, my stock is at $17.43!!" only to find out that it's been in perpetual decline for the better part of 140 years, dramatically in the last 40! The unfettered document is easy to come by, some of us "radicals" even keep a copy in our pocket. You listening James? ;-)
Bravo <>
hey, what's this country coming to?, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 22:29:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the words regarding the Choate stock thing. I am not worried about pretty. Fact is I'm kinda ugly so lyin behind a pretty weapon will only serve to highlight my less than Heston looks.! HA!

I think I'll just be certain that I am snugged up and just go shoot till I can't scratch my nads with my right hand and be happy. Lucky for me I can lift a glass vial of the right brew with my left hand. Otherwise I would have a dilemma.

Wishin I was ready to make the pilgrimage to Storm, but knowin I will eventually.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Dyin to get to the range again tomorrow. It's just outside of Oneonta, NY, USA - Friday, September 22, 2000 at 23:20:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


I'm reluctant to give a specific load for the 300... big cartridges, in smallish bores, with varying throats can get real fussy about "full loads" and lead to trouble with over the internet loading data...
Not easy, like plain vanilla .308 Win, and I wouldn't give some of my 308 loads over the net.
I will not give out a load, unless it has been shoot in two or more "standard chamber" rifles, with absolutly no signs of pressure.

But... any of the four 4350s are good, and very accurate, but they're on the fast end of the usable powders, minimun muzzle flash (HA! for a 300WM) and you will have no problem getting the velocity, if have a longish barrel (25 or better).

Re-19 and Re-22 are good, but dirty.

H4831, and H4831-SC are good, and very clean burning.

IMR-7828, and H1000 are slow, you will fill the case... need a long barrel to get the velocity up, and lotta flash at night... (you will burn the lawn).
There are other good powders... H4350, and H4831 are my first choices.
Start with a manual, and watch for the usual suspects.

It's not the stock design I'm not a fan of... there are several designs like that, and I would have gotten a similar one for a project except my hand (read tennis racket) wouldn't fit in it.
The stock works well, and at $100-$110, is a bargain.

But my objection to the Choate stock is the wording on the side... "Major Plaster's Ultimate Sniper Stock" or whatever... that's the ultimate ego trip for Plaster... I wouldn't want my name on the side of a "SNIPER STOCK".
...and for the owner... it just looks silly! Plus, in the unlikely event that you have to use it in a defence situation, the opposition will "EAT YOUR FACE" in court.
Once the writing is gone, it's a very useful stock.

If you get it glass bedded, and there is "Squeezie" oozing out of the stock, around the action... don't pay for it... glass bedding ain't brain surgery, or rocket science!


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 00:07:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

The tang on your action ain't touching the plastic because the whole action is sitting on an aluminum bedding block.It was probably meant to but manufacturing tolerances being what they are....Check the bedding block with a GOOD straight edge and make sure its true.If it is don't worry if it ain't send it back.Now if you want to see something to make you think tighten that action up in the stock, set the safety,and squeeze on that trigger real good and watch that tang flex around.The first time I noticed this on mine I thought the receiver bridge was broken.Disconcerting to say the least but it doesn't seem to affect anything.Hey man you've got a $400 rig that will shoot 3/4" all day long,don't expect perfection just shoot it.

When I moved to Texas 20 years ago bumper stickers that said simply "SECEDE" were quite popular.Now you only see them on 20 year old pick-up's.....HMMMMMMMMM I wonder why.

Maybe you should call your new nation UTOPIA
BruceE <>
Texas, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 00:11:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


I bet I had that (Bull SH$t) Major Plaster label scrapped off the stock before the box made it all the way to the bottom of my garbage pail. It was the first thing I saw when I pulled it from the packaging and I about crapped my knickers! Need less to say it is now a generic blank oval that bystanders will wonder about. Thanks fro the words.


I haven't shot the weapon since I put the stock on the other day so I haven't had the opportunity to see the freakish behavior you have described. I'll certainly watch for it and before going out I'm gonna tkae it off againand check the blocks as you suggest.

And thanks for the Pep talk on what I have in my posession. I am VERY pleased with my choice considering I had limits financially. For $400 plus the $107 I spent on the stock and a mere $80 for my Harris Bipod I would suggest I have a damned fine rig. Fact is I have read those pillars of this site say over and over again that a major portion of the shoot is the shooter not the hardware. I have always been of the mind that expensive hardware provides the good shooter a chance to shoot better but ya gotta be good first.

If I can take my rig out and shoot .75 groups all day long I'll take it and be happy. I'm kinda simple like that.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Feelin better about my Choate stock now in Oneontap, NY, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 00:45:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Paul S.
Tried to e-mail you back to say thanks for all the information but your e-mail is ricocheting all over the butts. Tried two different ways but no luck!

Any way thanks tons! Looks like I have a few days homework ahead of me!

Vern 10 - 8
Vern <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 01:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo...Bottle made it just fine. Thank you very much.

I was not actually suggesting that anyone loose any freedom, I just noticed that really important things like civic duty and parental responsiblity are given little or no importance in modern Amerika, while something as simple and natural as defense of self is look apon as such a major societal taboo. We all know why that is. Welcome to the coming socialist empire.

Chuck, I've been looking at the data on the Stealth, Man I'm impressed. I think I might like to add one of those to my collection too. I'll check on price and availability on sunday right after I open the range. Full retail is around 737 bucks or so. I'll see what I can get them for and let those of you interested know.

I think we need to start a warrior religion...gotta carry our religious burden around with us at all times. hand guns at all times, rifles get to go to "church" with us. Blades are a sign of devotion and piety. ( HA!)
Cory <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 03:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anybody had any first hand experience with the Leica Geovid?
Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 03:18:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
Vern 10-8 AOL occasionally takes a ---- in our face and blows up our e-mail. We've been looking at other providers, and will soon make a move elsewhere. Glad the info looks promising for you.
PaulS <>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 03:52:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory: yup, you're at it again! These jokers out here have tried (yet again) to limit our CCW from schools and churches. They call it the "safe to worship, safe to learn act", which makes you wonder. How is one safer if one advertises that certain areas are open pickings to sick-o predators? You would think they would first want to limit me from carrying into airports and bars and such. DUH! Common sense up in smoke.

Michael: you mean they wouldn't trade you for a Geovid when you sent yours in? HA! If you're serious about making the step up, please keep me apprised. I'm really interested. There's no way I can afford it, but I'm interested!

Well, now comes the hard part. I was told that I was going to be receiving my fathers Remington soon enough. Part of me says that I should keep it as-is, a hunting 30-06, from '62 I think. A 700 if memory serves. The other part of me is thinking "McMillan, Badger, Kreiger, B&L tac, Geoff", etc. Would that be blasphemy?
Bravo <>
two wake-ups away from Uzi fun, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 04:07:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey folks, good luck at SMTC!!

Hey, what do youse guys know about this Blaser R 93 straight pull bolt action system? I know it uses some sort of 360 degree locking system, but I haven't seen, just heard scuttlebutt at work about it. How would this idea fare against the old standby locking lugs?? Lemme know guys.

Fat barrels, skinny barrels:

Mrbullet can attest to this, the printout of the 300 Win Mag rifle I built shot a 0.094" 5 shot group. It will honestly group 1/8 to 1/4 MOA repeatedly in the right hands. It is of sporter weight, albeit a heavy sporter. I haven't had a noticeable POI change in this rifle. All I am saying is a light barrel can shoot as well as a heavy "fatty". More whip, but it will shoot. If measures are taken to prevent bending the lighter barrels in the contouring process, and you end with a nice straight bore, it should shoot well. That's why I tend to go with the heavier sporter or light varmint weight contours for most of my rebarrel jobs.

Scott (X-Ring):

Hey big guy, Mr. Shilling told me he's been yakkin' with ya off and on, I figured I better drop ya a line. My buddy has a Colt AR-15, 1/9"twist preban, with the aluminum forend, pistol grip, hasn't modified it a whole helluvalot 'cept for cosmetics. What would you suggest for glass on this gorgeous .223?? We've got dog towns to conquer, ya hear!!! LOL.....

Every day's a holiday

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 04:52:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just returned to see your post about retained energy at long range.
For paper shooting I don't see the need but I'll play along. I pulled
out the trusty Sierra book to check the data contained in said golden
book. Here is how my sorry "pea shooter" stacks up against the kings
of the sport. Yes, defending my peashooters.....224 and 243.

6mm284 107g BTHP BC of .527 3200 fps
drop @ 1000 -273 in.
retained energy @ 1000 610 ft-lb <----
10mph wind @ 1000 68 in.

.308 Win 175g BTHP BC of .462 @ 2600 fps (top in Seirra's book)
drop @ 1000 -457 in.
retained energy 529 ft-lb
10mph wind @ 1000 104 in.

.300 WinMonster 175g BTHP 3100 fps BC of .462
drop @ 1000 -303 in.
retained energy 823 ft-lb
10 mph wind @ 1000 78 in.

Looked like the 6.5/284 took a beating too. Some are like me, just a
rifle shootin' fan of it all. I'd like to think that shooters of the
long range type would encourage others in what ever cartridge they
may like that week. I'm not Military or Police, what I use in the
field is a wrench. I don't fancy myself a sniper, just a shooter.
I don't normally post here, just thought you guys may like to hear
of the good job G.A.Precision did for me. Thanks again George and
I owe you $15 bucks. Tim Meyers "PeaShooter"

T.Meyers "PeaShooter" <>
I205, Calif., USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 05:19:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, When I called Leica to check on the status of my LRF 800 that I sent back in for their factory recall they were not much help. The guy who I was transfered to said that his only job was to look at the list of people who returned the devices and nothing more.

I asked him if he knew if the "new and improved" LRF 800 would actually work as advertised and he again said that all he knew was that he had a list of people and we was in charge of that.
I asked if he could just credit my LRF800 towards a good deal on a Geovid. I was wasting my breath....

He didn't know who might be able to answer my questions, but that he was simply in charge of the "list."

Truly customer service at its best!!

Did you have that "chat" with Springfield yet?

Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 05:21:18 (ZULU) (your host address:


I own three Leupolds already, a 3.5x-10x-50mm Vari-X III, a 4x-12x-40mm Vari-X II, and a 6x-40mm. I also own a Nikon 3x-9x-40mm. While I like my loopies, especially the vx3, I wanted to give other manufacturers a shot. Broaden my horizons so to speak.
My reasoning for such a high mag is that @10x my reticule still covers the X-ring, and I have a hard time seeing the shot if it is in the black or overlapping a previous shot and that is with a Ruger M77 .338WinMag. Having said that I will say I can see alot better with the vx3 with the 50mm obj @10x than with the vx2 with the 40mm @12x. Things are just much clearer with the larger obj. However, Since I will be shooting a stationary target I fail to see any advantage to a larger FOV. Ideally, I would think the target should fill your FOV, with the rifle properly stablized for bench shooting.
As far as the AR goes, Having shot my friends DCM, it occured to me that the AR would make a great platform for a target rifle (ie: very little recoil, semi-auto action, inherant accuracy of the .223 round.)
So for all that wondered there is my reasoning.

Toy4x4wBFT <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the CCBS (Cold Clean Bore Shots) I don't think it has a thing to do with the barrel, Button/Cut, as I have rebuilt a couple of "CUSTOM" rifles that had this problem, along with a host of others, and I think it is all in the action/barrel not being square/true. If the action/barrel are true the first shot will be in the group and IMO you will not get barrel walk when it gets hot. This also assumes that the barrel/chamber is dry and clean before the CCBS!!!
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:26:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tim, apparently you did not read everything I said on the caliber subject, so I will try and explain further. Balistics are not the only concern of a sniper round. You have to concider cost, quality ammo availability, life of bbl, energy on target, blast and intended use.
Certainly exotics can and are made that best the 308 win in balistics but they have not replaced the 308 for many reasons. You seem to like spending your off time working with the cases and bullets to make them shoot. I shoot so much and so many different combinations that I shoot factory ammo all the time. That 308 sniper rifle of mine has beaten many Bench Rest 6x284 and 6ppc rifles with factory 308 ammo, without bench rests and in the wind. I see a trend in so called sniper matches for exotic stuff, to make up for a lack of skill in many cases. I stay away from anything not field ready. I do not play with anything I do not think will survive hard use. I see the sniper matches going the way of IPSC and every other thing that was started as close to real world gone game.

Now if you have noticed I have showed up with a different weapon and scope combo to the Mudvlle Militia everytime. That is because I use the match for testing purposes only. I do not take it as a serious sniper match because it truly is not a sniper match. It is a a fine match for 200-1000 yards shooting under field conditions but not a sniper match. Funny thing is it is as close to a sniper match as we have in Calif. But sniper matches do not have range flags and only known distance shooting. Sorry but you and I both know everyone can tell you withing ten yards where he is shooting from on the course. We do not carry anything and most guys tie sand bags to the rear rifle swivel. Ask Rick or Gooch if he would tie a sand bag to his rifle before going in the field. You will also notice that I carry a pack with me and only stash/cache it at the end. In that pack I still have all the gear I carried working. The waste line has increased and the motor is not what it was but old habits die hard. Now dont get me wrong I love to go to sac and shoot with you guys. A better bunch I have not met! I just kid myself into thinking we are competing as field ready snipers. The guys at Storm Mountain this week are doing that and I wish them all the luck in the world. It is hard on the body for certain and right now it hurts me to walk the Sac course.

So we dont have a misunderstanding here is what I think a sniper rifle is:
1.A rifle that can shoot 1moa or better under field condidtions everytime it is taken out without having to tune it or its trigger

2. A scope that will quickly dial for range and hit the mid section of a man out to atleasst 800 yards without hold off for range or windage. Built rock tuff without external adjustmenst and with clear to the edges optics. I like a fixed ten power for field and a varible of 2.5/3.5x10 for police/MOUT work.

3. A caliber that has factory ammo available all over the world that produces sub minute of angle and does a predictable job with wind to 800 plus yards. Produces as little blast as possible. BBL life of over 7000 rounds. Enough energy to put a man down at 1000 yards.

4. The whole combo made rock tuff and light enough that when you carry it and the list of sniper related gear you dont die in the first mile of walking.

I have no problem with anyone shooting whatever they want, for what ever reason they want, just dont count the balistic screen beans and think you are ahead because the 6x284 fights the wind better. I mean if you want to play that game I have a 338 Lapua that will eat the little 6/6.5/284 up past a 1000 yards, but I wont be giving up my 308 for it either. Too many other things out there to concider. Carry that 6x284 for 15 plus years, take it to war and let me know how it worked then I will listen. Right now I will use the 308 and teach it until something comes along that bests it in all categories I have listed.

I ask you a question. If you have a 25 mph wind and a 100 yard shot what is the hold off? Answer move to a zero wind factor and shoot.


I gave Stan/Bravo advice based on knowing him and what he wants to do, not to rustle feathers on some guys that want something different. I want something that works and is available when I need it.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 13:50:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jerry Rice...
I tend to agree with you, about the trued actions, as all the guns I've known to be stable were well made, on "trued" actions.
I also think the quality of bedding has some part in the CCBs, and the long term holding POI.
I have bedded or re-bedded every gun I own (except 2 Winchester Custom Sharpshooters, that were bedded by McMillen)... and have never been plagued by POI drift, though several Crow and dog shooters I know, need to check zero before shooting all the time... even with "good" rigs.
By the way... I've given up "Micro bed" (though it never crumbled on me), and gone over to the Brownells stainless steel bedding stuff... very nice, like puddy window puddy in consistancy, and "0" shrinkage.

I Agree (and I'll never hear the end of it ;) with the UnDude.

I've owned lots of different calibers over the years, and still do. Some were very exciting and sexy... 220 Ackley Swift, and 224 Clark with 8" twists, and 80 grain bullets, are really "cool".

When you tell your Dog shootin' buds, that you just got a new .22 Cheetah, they all say "Ooh, lemme come over and see it"

Others are very "Plain-Jane", and boring... the .223, and the 308 are about as boring as you can get. You tell your shootng buds you just got a .223, and they say "Yawn... boring... I gotta go clean the basement!"

The .224 clark will shoot flatter, and have less wind drift than a 300 win mag... as will a lot of other cartridges, like the (in)famous 257 Weatherby, and the 300-378 that holds 120 grains of powder (deadly at both ends)

But for a tactical rifle... you need everyday boring repeatablity.
You need to be able to take it out of the case, summer or winter, no matter how long ago since you last shot it, and walk to the line, pick a target, and hit it... no sighters, no warmups, no 'cuses, no nothin'... and you have to shoot this rifle a LOT to have that much familarty with it.
You can't get that kind of boring repeatability with a gun you have to have re-barreled twice a season.
When the weather's nice, and the alligators give me a break, I shoot 200 to 400 rounds a week (it takes that much practice to stay as bad a shot as I am)...
With a 6.5x284, that's a new barrel every month or two:((


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 15:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ah! Mike the Undude! you are so on target with this last one! YOU Grasshoppers need scarf up that information and study it well! Excellente!
Mars; Let me suggest a test for your Choate. Obtain by theft or borrow or whatever means possible, A boresight device such as the Bushnell or Simmons thing. Put it in your bore and zero or note where the center cross hair is. Without disturbing the device remove the barrelled action and not how much shift has occured. If the shift is more than 1 MOA you will need to rebed or glass bed the action. If there is no shift you will probably be fine. Reinstall in the action and note shift... 1 moa maximum allowable in vertical direction only if horizontal is noted you need bedding job. Ok test # 2 Fire 5 shots minimum (some prefer 10) at the range. Insert the boresighter and note where the cross is. Have a beer, and let barrel cool down 10 minutes. Note position. Let barrel cool 1 hour note position again.
If the shift is more than 1 or 2 moa. vertical only.... It definitely will need work.
(The reason for the larger tolerance in the second test is because of the possibility the bore pilot will move slightly by the cooling barrel. If your shifting very much you will note it easily.
Test # 3 Freeze the puppy in your home freezer with the pilot inserted and check it (be careful you don't move it while it's frosted over) Again the tolerance should be less than 2 moa.
Oh yes, upon completetion of each test. Pinch the stock at the foreend and barrel while looking at the sighter screen and say "Damn! I didn't know a barrel would move that far by just pinching it!"
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 15:16:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mars, I agree with you completely. Get what you can afford and shoot it. I am not a fan of the Plaster stock because of how heavy it is. It is a stock that works well though and an improvement over the Savage factory stock. My only complaints about Savage is that the triggers and the issue stocks tend to be way to crummy. The bbbls are fine and they shoot very well. My prefrence for an inexpensive rifle tends to go with either a Remington Varmint sythetic or Winchester Varmint. They both can be had for under 600.00 and come with a H.S. Precision stock so all you have to do is shoot them. When you factor in the price of a trigger and stock upgrade to a Savage you are in the same money. I would rather have a guy with a Savage that knew how to use it than a Chandler that only dreamed of shooting it. Bottom line is the Savage is a better sniper rifle than the M1D and that worked pretty well in past wars. Just keep shooting that Savage in 308 and have fun.

Rick Boucher, glad to hear you are given the guys a work out. Hey I have a 338 Lapua necked down to 224 that shoots a 90 grain bullet at 4200 fps, but the bbl only lasts 200 rounds you interested. Only kidding.

You guys should change my name to 308 Dude

All you guys at Storm I want notes on the best places for next year. I know you must be missing the Pretty Italian Lady and her helpers. I am.

Rod Ryan sorry I did not make the best event of the year. See you next year. Maybe some of the Mudville guys will come and try to survive with me.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 15:42:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for the question being screwed up that was what is the hold off for a 1000 yard shot in 25mph wind not 100 yards.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 15:49:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

mar1489 <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 16:00:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am just an endless sorce of questions.

I have a stock Ruger M77 .338 WinMag. At the moment it shoots a 1-1.25" group at 100yrds with Fed Premium safri grade w/210gr nosler partitions. How much better do you all think I can get it to shoot by floating the barrel, haveing a trigger job done and handloading some boat-tails for it? Do you think I could get overlaping groups?

Also the rifle weighs approx. 8lbs. I would like to increase this to around 15lbs (it's kind of brutal after 10rnds) without messing with the lines of the rifle. How can I do this?

And finally, How does .338 WinMag proform at 500+yrds?

Toy4x4wBFT <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:08:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi Guys,

Lastly I bought a lot of hardware from G.A.Precision.
I got an outstanding fast-fast service.
I'm writing this comment just to let him have the right credit.

BTW, Bravo , may be you are happy to know I got the best score in two sniper matches with my M25.

Thanks and good shooting,
G.I.Joe <>
Italy - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:29:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Toy 4x4,
I would be happy with the results that you are currently getting with your M77.

I also have a M77, but in 30-06. I bought it when I was 16. I used to think that it was a great shooter until I got a chance to shoot a rifle with a real barrel and gunsmithed action. It worked great for me at the time though, I shot pigs, deer, and lots of targets with it, but if you are looking for great accuracy I would look somewhere else.
I would rather put the money aside and put it towards another Rem 700.
Others may disagree, but I that was just my experience with a couple of Rugers and a couple of Rems.
My best advice is go shoot and spend the $$ on ammo or a Rem 700 and practice reading the wind . Mike's opinion that a skilled shooter behind a savage is more effective than a spectator with a Chandler or a NorCal is mighty sound.
I have some pretty good stuff, so if I miss it is all my fault. I just need to practice!!

Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:34:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


Whether you have a wood, or synthetic stock, you can add about 6 to 10 pounds without it being visable.

Wood... remove the butt plate, and drill/dig out the butt stock, until most of the part back of the hand grip, is empty.
Get a #25 bag of skeet shot from the local loading supply, and 3 or 4 epoxie "two tube" sets (long working time type), and a bunch of small paper cups.

First, pour in loose shot, to see how much it will hold... fill it up to the top. Pour this amount into some kind of bucket, or whatever.
Take a small amount (about 1/2 of a coffee cup), and put it in a paper cup... squrt in equal amounts of epoxie stuff, and mix it up... YOU DON"T HAVE TO HAVE LOTS OF EPOXIE!... there should be air space between the BB's... just make sure all the BB's are wet... don't have it look like there's epoxie between all the BB's.
Put that in the stock, and let it set. Do the next batch, and same, same... do it in little batches. Epoxie builds up heat when it cures, and it you try to do it all at once, the stuff will get real hot, and boil over, and you'll have the mess of your life... (I GOT the Tee Shirt ;(.
when it's done, replace the pad. Go to the front of the stock, and hollow out a channel ubder the barrel... do the same thing!

Plastic... same, but when you rale the butt plate off, and dig a bit, you will probably strike, not oil, but fluffy plastic foam filler... take this out and do the same. you should be able to add 6 to 8 pounds to the weight, and it won't show at all...


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:44:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

308 Dude: You've nailed ME on the head. I try to keep everything as "realistic" as possible, these games get wierd. I'm no gunslinger, but try to shoot a lot of pistol. I figure that 99% of the "bad times" I'm likely to ever see (less than 1 per lifetime) will be with a pistol only, as that's what I have with me ALWAYS. So I try lots of baracaded shooting, shooting on the move to cover, and presentations, etc. You can imagine the first time I ever watched someone (IPSC) run TOWARDS 7 "badguys", almost punching the targets with the muzzle before shooting!!! URK?!? For reality with a rifle, I think I've got a doozy, and a large part of my choice was that my father did all the "field testing" of the M-14 I needed. No, more than would probably ever be needed. It's got my trust in spades. Even fits into Master Rick's statement of no one-shot wars. Even so, I'm prone to flashyness and nifties sometimes, and I REALLY DO appreciate you keeping me honest.

'Lito: And I thought I was a range hog! You shoot more rifle ammo than I do pistol! WOW!

Michael: haven't talked to Debbie since Mon or Tues, when she called me at work. I made my intentions clear though, when I get this pistol back AGAIN, if it does less than 1000 rounds reliably with no cleaning, they'll get it back AGAIN. If it does between 1000 and 1500, it'll be "the beater". If it does more than 1500, it'll go back to Springfield with some dough to have a ducktail grip safety, low shelf Gunsite thumb safety, and Novak fixed sights put on it. Hey, that's all a 45 needs, isn't it? Of course, it'll take the better part of 2 months to find out if it's good or not (hopefully).
Bravo <>
still haven't "beat up" the CAR, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:48:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


I also have 2 other m77's--.308 and .270. The .270 and the .338 trade-off as to which will keep the tighter group, but I am less than impressed with the .308 which is lucky to shoot a group smaller than 2" @ 100yrds. I wonder if that differance is inherent in the rounds or is it that the m77 rifle likes different caliburs better than others?
Toy4x4 <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:54:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

I hardly shoot pistol anymore... the club has gone all race gun, and rule beaters... there's no place for stock pistol shooters, and there's no IDPA in my state.


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 17:59:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Patron 'Lito: Try the the Ledyard Sportsmens Club, Sprague Rod & Gun, or the Connecticut Association of Tactical Shooters in Wallingford. They all have IDPA affilitated clubs. You've got all you need, there's a 10 round cap on mags (to keep things from race-gun status), and most stages are designed "revolver friendly", so they're 6 or 12 rounds. Stock service pistols are rewarded, concealled holsters are preferred! If you're gonna shoot the old BHP, just don't fill the mag ;-)

Hey Joe: way to keep the faith! Show 'em what that "crummy self loader" will do! Besides, it's great to see their faces when they see what a gas gun will really do agains some bolts ;-)
Bravo <>
almost feel good enough to shoot again!, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 18:21:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Patron 'Lito: Try the the Ledyard Sportsmens Club, Sprague Rod & Gun, or the Connecticut Association of Tactical Shooters in Wallingford. They all have IDPA affilitated clubs. You've got all you need, there's a 10 round cap on mags (to keep things from race-gun status), and most stages are designed "revolver friendly", so they're 6 or 12 rounds. Stock service pistols are rewarded, concealled holsters are preferred! If you're gonna shoot the old BHP, just don't fill the mag ;-)

Hey Joe: way to keep the faith! Show 'em what that "crummy self loader" will do! Besides, it's great to see their faces when they see what a gas gun will really do agains some bolts ;-)
Bravo <>
almost feel good enough to shoot again!, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 18:22:02 (ZULU) (your host address:


Regarding the Tikka 595 sporter, with all due respect to Hexa, I find it to be a fine weapon. He is correct about the wood stock and the plastic trigger guard, but he fails to mention the guard is deeply recessed in the stock. You would have to work extremely hard to damage it. I'm not sure if it is polycarbonite or not. If you have the cash for a custom or AI go for it, but let me tell ya, this thing shoots sweet has a great feel and an adjustable stock and trigger. I picked mine up for $660 plus a ffl fee and I don't now anything thing that will touch the accuracy out of the box for that kinda cash.. Plus with a bipod and scope it looks cool..

Just my 2 cents worth.
JeffA <>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 18:24:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, I'm a safety officer at Ledyard Sportsman Club's IDPA. We shoot next Sunday if you are interested. We only have one more shoot in November, also the first Sunday as most are, and then we break until March or April. If you, or anyone, want some info just drop me an e-mail.
Rob <>
USA - Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 23:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Have you had any luck finding your Win M70 Stealth? I called 3 "good possibilty" dealers, including the guy that sold me my Rem 700 Police, and no luck, nada, nyet, zilch. Does Winchester really make this gun?


Wyoming??!! Do you know how cold it gets there? That's why I moved to Florida. Lived in Mass, NH, Ohio & Oregon and they're all COLD! Besides, the idea of living on your own Island Nation really intrigues me! :D But I did drive through Wyoming on the way to Oregon - it is nice country.


I liked your "rules" for societal living. Especially the one about parental responsibilities and obligations. There are, unfortunately, no requirements for anybody wishing to enhance the human gene pool through the addition of their proginy. I have run across so many candidates for the Darwin Awards that it scares the living $hit outta me.

Militia-type Stuff,

Did you know that in the American Revolutionary War, the number of freedom loving individuals who actually got off their duffs and helped carve out this country was only about 10-15% of the resident population? The majority of the population was actually quite content to do homage to old King George and keep the status quo. Kinda sounds like today, don't it? We owe so much to so few.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 00:31:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 01:58:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
Lito' I believe out here we call that "being called out". IDPA sounds like fun wid a gun.
Moe; It's always about that ratio that will actually fight for it.
Toy, in spite of Lito's excellent method for adding weight to your gun I'd wonder why you'd want to do it. I'd consider some kind of muzzle device to lower the recoil. A BOSS might even help the group a little. The .338 is a kick shicker for sure but adding weight isn't an option with me unless I just plan to lay prone and shoot all day. Too bad you can't add one of those Sniper stocks that weigh about a 100 lbs. We always talk about. If you're going to hunt with that it would be mountainous country I'd think. Weight is something you don't need there. The little bit of accuracy that's gained by weight is hardly ever worth the trade off. If it's Law Enforcement application you may be O.K. but it's not likely you'll fire many shots from one location. Oh yes, if you do use a muzzle device... do wear your ear plugs! Ruger does seem to have a fondness for Caliber's. It loves the .338, 220 Swift and some .243's aren't bad. Others are ho-hum.
That wood is so crappy that if you free float it. It will be touching the barrel next spring when you take it out of the wall case. Glass bed that turkey with a thick bedding and hope for the best and cut a big channel for that barrel, Or get a real stock.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 02:00:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, back from vacation. Wish I could have made it to the hills for the match but just couldn't afford both this year.

Only four kings caught in the Grand Strand Pier king tournament last weekend, unfortunately I didn't weigh one in. Did get a 19 pounder Wednesday.

Ocean is full of baitfish; pogies, mullet, blues everywhere. Sharks are everwhere also. Watched a hammerhead around 10' long hit one of my bud's baits, fought it for about 30 minutes and then broke it off. Spot run hasn't started yet, water temp still in upper 70's.

Time to get ready for hunting season. Will take a day to catch up with the Roster. Looks like everyone behaved while I was gone.
Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 02:38:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Moe: yeah, it's cold. The things that some folks will do for freedom. I figure that Wyoming would be the easiest, as it's got the smallest population. Unfortunately, even as such, it'll take a quarter mil to work, and we just don't have that kind of numbers. Your 10-15% sits right over the number I was taught, makes you wonder about those radicals that were willing to pledge their loyalty, life, and fortunes. I'm getting the opinion now that we're around 1 to 2%.

Ken Hartwell: polygonal is a type of rifling, kind of squared off oddly. It's what's used in a Glock, and other than being a little easier to clean and possibly slightly faster, just another way of getting the same thing.

'Lito: hope I didn't do anything bad ;-) Go shoot some pistol competitions. It's good for the wasteline, and folks like us (pistol packers) need all the trigger time we can get. HA!

Well, it's a REALLY early morning tomorrow, got to drive 4.5 hours to the subgun class. On the good side, I ought to burn enough ammo to make up for the "sick days" I had this week!
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 03:02:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken H.
ref: Polygon Bore

I didn't see an answer to your question so I'll give it a try.

Think of a hexigon ( stop sign )but with five flats instead of eight. Ok now we take a rod so cut and slip a tube over it. The tube will become the barrel. Now we hammer forge the bbl untill it takes the shape of the rod. Then imajine that the muzzel and breach were twisted in opposite directions in order to give the projectile rotational twist. If you can find a gun shop close to you that carries either the IMI Desert Eagle .44 mag or .41 mag or I bealieve its the H&K P-7 these have the poly bores. They look kinda weird but they shoot really well. My Desert Eagle .44 is a massive monster but the recoil impulse is mild and it will shoot handloads in the neighborhood of 2 1/2" or better @ 25yrds. if I do my part.
Vern <>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 03:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


My .338 was bought for hunting up North. My .270 was inherited, and my .308 was my first hunting rifle. I have since discovered that I would rather shoot a targets, and drive my truck or atv in the woods instead of hunt. So I have a bunch of hunting rifles, and no dedicated traget rifles. I plan to rectify this situation with the AR I plan to get (see above entries). However I am attached to my 3 m77's for various reasons-- the .270 was bequethed(?) to me with the stipulation that I not sell it, the .338 is just sexy, and I am agonizing over selling my .308 as it was the first rifle I ever bought (it is also the least accurate). So in essance I want to maximize what I have to what I am doing. It is hard to imageing the .338 being louder than it is now. When touched off it jumps a foot off the sandbags and dust sifts down from the ceiling at the range, guy up and down the firing line turn to see what kind of artillery piece it was just went off (it may be wrong but I like it).

Anyway, if I increased the weight to around 15 to 20lbs, it would suck carring it from the truck to the firing line but the payoff would be my shoulder would be much less sore at the end of the day.

Here is a poser-- my .338 kicks like a mule, but has never busted any blood vessels in my shoulder. My .308 does every time. The .308 weighs a couple pounds less, but the .338 has a much heavier bullet and a larger powder charge, so would a couple of pound make that much differance?
Toy4x4wBFT <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 07:49:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE: Regarding Stocks and Stock Design

Had the opportunity to get my hands on a Winchester Coyote Rifle today. Nice piece. What impressed me was the stock design. Reminiscent of the old Winchester Marksman stock and very well executed in laminated wood.

Have you noticed how almost all stocks have evolved into prone style stocks? Or the last time it magazines/articles showed someone sniping or shooting from other than the prone position?

I like the Marksman. My personal rifles have the McMillan HTG stock on them and I find it versatile and works well in the prone, too. I have accessory rails inletted into mine and use a Parker-Hale bipod for any prone work if I am unable to use a sling or am prone for extended periods.

Don't know about you, but sniping is "hunting" and a hunting (read HTG) style stock is best for me. I've used the McMillan A2 and A3, as have friends. I don't care for them and a number of them have come back and used my HTG and said they wish they had stuck with it. 'Nuff said, it works for me.

One member of the list indicated he had gravitated to the A4 Stock and liked it very much after using the HTG for 15 years. Since I haven't used the A4 I can't comment. It appears to have some very good features built in...meanwhile I'll use what continues to work for me best.


Wes Howe
(The No Nom de Plume Guy)
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 08:04:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

That sounds Righteous... My old club is IPSC, and I knew it was a lost cause, when my shooting buddy bought a $3,500, 1911 in 38 "stupid!"... a gun so confluted, you couldn't conceal under a trench coat... defend your life with it... forgetaboutit!

I liked the shotgun events... and have a 11-87 Police w/factory 8 shot mag... you'd think that was competive HA! (as Pat would say)... I might as well brought a .410 skeet guy. Guys had 15 shot tubes on their shot guns (extended 2 feet past the muzzle).
I'm shootng 700 yd rifle this coming weekend, but I'll make the November shoot.
I'll drop you an e-mail for info... Thanks!

'Yote Bate...
That ain't being called out... that's an invite to meet new friends, and play in the sandbox ;)
Callin' out, is what I said to "You know who!"

Hell no. You remember, we talked last year about findin a IDPA group around here.

Welcome back. You missed the ultimate ring fitting... got the front of a pair of Badgers, down by nearly a 1/12 of an inch... you coulda' come up here for a vacation ;)

Back to bed... it's 4:00 AM. :((


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 08:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

No luck on the Stealth whatsoever!! I called Winchester Cust Srvc and they told me the next shipment of .308 wouldn't be in 'til Dec 30. They stated they'd be getting enough to fill all backorders and then some. They did not anticipate the demand that came with it's announcement; figuring varmint hunters would prefer the .223 and .22-250, both of which are readily available. The only place I haven't tried is Wal-Mart, which, I've heard, can sometimes find these things in other inventories. What the hell, I'll give it a try.

Has anyone fired or seen tests on the Sig Bolts? I saw a few at the gun show yesterday, and they looked nice. They had the thin hunting barrel, so I didn't pay them awhole lot of attention, since I prefer a thick, target or varmint type barrel.

What about insertion by Zodiac or Rigid Raider?

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 13:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wes, I have used the A4 stock for about two years now. I still like it very much. In the prone long range sniper cat. it is tops. The USMC has picked this stock for the new M40A3 Rifle. My only thing I do not like about the A4 is the weight. It weighs a pound and 1/2 more than an A1.
Lately I have been working up a rifle, with George Gardner being the smith, I am going to call the rock. It has a 22" 1x12 twist Acc Arms 5R bbl that starts the same diameter as a Remington Varmint and has heavy flutes. It is built on a Remington SA, in 308win and sits in a M40A1 stock, with a Badger Floor plate, Badger Rings and Badger Bases (can you tell I think Badger has the best). I am going to play with several scopes, a MK4M3, IOR 2.5x10, US Optics fixed 10 and an US Optics made USMC Scope. I will let you know which scope I like best. The whole outfit should be light and work for all types of engagements.

Stocks are what you like. I recently had a new Match rifle built by Jerry Rice, in 308. I used a McMillan Modified 40X stock. It is very nice but I am also used to the old Winchester Marksman design, so I will have to get used to it.

One last thing. Usually we just call Officers "Sir" I now name you "Sir Wes"

On the A4 stock. One thing I do is get rid of the adjustable comb and use an Eagle stock bag instead. On a MK4 I take the foam out and the height is perfect. This also shaves about a 1/2lbs off.
Mike Miller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 14:10:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just a short note. Mike Miller has crowned me with the nom de plume of: Sir Wes. I like it. Not that I'm a snob.

By the way I started my career as an enlisted man. Just in case some of you think I just anothe khacki clad cocksucker...

On my way to the range to help out at the Elks Sighting in Days. Taking my 2 .308 M70's (Featherweights). One is a stainless "classic" the other an original 1954 gun in pristine condition. Deer season next week and I need to check zero's.

Kind Regards,

Sir Wes
Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 14:29:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, I admit it. I clicked on the "I don't agree to the above..." line at the In-Country Briefing. Very funny!!!! I happen to like the Purple Puke. He makes a great silhouette at 200 yards! Lots of COM! :D

Now that I think about it, the Purple Puke might be related to the guy who posted "$$ to protect your 2nd Amendment-send now" on the Emporium. Geez, another damn alien encounter.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 14:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi folks,

just thought to get one SR-25 but I know for sure many of you do not love it.

I sometime shot with my friend's one without trouble with good scores but I'd like to have some more comments and experiences.

Please would you like to let me know what's wrong with it ?

(Do not suggest to me to get one AR10(T) because it is not imported here in Italy,so impossible to get it)

Thanks and ciao
G.I.Joe <>
Italy - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 15:13:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito' think you're right there, better get down there and meet some practical pistolero's. Just couldn't resist the jab....Oh well,
have some fun anyway!
Toy; nothing wrong with the .338 or shooting it at long range. It's a good cartridge at any range. Actually it is a bit heavier "stock in the box" than the .308 due to the longer and heavier barrel. Can't help but notice that's the same barrel cut that is used on the .220 swift. Yes, it will help the recoil to make it heavier by 2 lbs.Since you signed 4X4 I kinda figured you would hunt from wheels anyway and there's where the heavy rifle is best realized.
Just happens they are about the best shooting 77's. I picked up a .308 Ultra Light 77 once at a gun show just prior to Hunting Elk in Western Colorado. Sighted it in and it was so poor I couldn't hit my hat at 200 meters but convinced myself to take it anyway. Wound up carrying my Styer .308 Sniper Rifle in the snow for 5 days. Learned a lot about heavy hunting rifles that trip.
Mike; that rifle your building sounds real fine! I feel like flutes are the best way to lighten the load and preserve the accuracy even to those who think flutes are a trade off it's a good one. I think they are just as accurate myself but that's another thread we've beaten to death.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 15:46:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Flutes and such......
What do you suppose would happen if you turned them flutes inside out and made them splines?Looks to me like you would save more weight,possibly increase rigidity and heat dispersion kinda like the fins on a Thompson sub-gun except longitudinal instead of radial.Hey somebody has to ask wacky questions.
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 18:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
on the splines thangie, when you flute, what's left IS splines!!!! (Wide Ones!!)

While on the subject of "FLUTES"......I read an interesting piece, buy a fairly well known Dude.

NOT the UNDUDE, that basically stated if you don't flute, but just BEAD blast the surface of the barrel, you get a much better heat dissapation than Fluting.

But Mike's reason is not for that purpose so I reckin' it's MOOT..............

Two Shoes
Finally in the 60's!!!!!!!, and some???????...RAIN!!!!!
Ah, Texus, ya' gotta lub it!!
Terry <>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 19:45:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Terry we all learn something now and then. I used to think flutes were just another thing to go wrong but Jerry Rice and George Gardner have made so many fine flutted bbl rifles for me that I now know it is fine if done right. On this rifle it is to make it lighter. Heat is never realy an issue with a sniper rifle because you do not shoot enough rounds to cause problems.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 22:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Guys & Gals,

Just got in and unpacked from The Rendezvous. Its was a SUPER event and any that did not make it missed out on some good times, and great prizes. A number of Roster regulars did VERY well and two Swedes took first team.
Mrs peteR and I had a ball (even though my field craft, well ugh SUCKED!)We wish all the competitors and staff a safe trip to their homes.


Didn't get downtown due to Mother Nature having her way much to everyones chagrin, maybe next year....................

September 29th and 30th, Year 2001 MARK IT- Take time off, Be there!

BIG CLEAN & DRY THE EQUIP CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 22:43:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone heard or shot the Howa 1500 Police rifle. Does it compare to the Savage or remminghton. I am wanting to build another system and was woundering if anyone could help with this. Please e mail me with any imformation you have.
Jeremy Darnell <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 00:36:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
308 Dude,( Alias "The UNdude").

Nice ring don't you think?.

I agree with you Mike, I was funnin' w/ Bruce E.

If a barrel is made without a lot of induced stress to begin with, or the flutes are cut before the barrel is stress relieved,and/or machine work done.

I think like you, there is/will be no prob's, and you get the best of both worlds, a stiffer tube, heat reduction( whether you need it or not), and a lighter rig.

All positive attributes to a fine piece......

Terry( Two Shoes)

Remember The Alamo!!!!!!!
Terry <>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 00:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just got in, unpacked, etc from the Rendesvous... Lot's of good folksen there. There was good interaction and comraderee among friends in the sniping community.
Lot's of goodies given away during the award ceremony.

PeteR: Ima thinking that Mrs PeteR had too much fun helping stress and scream at the shooters moving thru the rappel tower first station. Hell she was so loud that we were laughing about that on the side line. She's also a heck of alot better looking than you :)

Gonna settle down for the evening folks!

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 02:09:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeremy Darnell and the Howa 1500 Police:

I have only seen a couple of older Howa Police rifles and their close cousins, the Smith and Wesson and (I think) Mossberg guns. They were the heavy barreled Howa sporting rifles in plain oil-finished walnut stocks. I have no shooting experience with these Howa variants.

However, I have built a few huntinig rifles on Howa barreled actions and can tell you that I was very impressed. Mind you, there is nothing about their design that is at all remarkable. Every feature on the gun was lifted from some other gun that came before it. The things that stand out about the Howas are 1) they are cheap, 2) They were very carefull about what design features they stole, er, I mean selected and the action design is very competant, 3) the build quality is quite high 4) Did I meantion that they are cheap? I mean DIRT CHEAP! You can get a Howa 1500 HB action in .308 for about $300 or so and then drop it into the stock of your choice (McMillan told me that they will make their tactical stocks for the 1500) and I bet you that, with no further tweaking, it will go sub MOA on a regular and more consistant basis than a new 700 PSS. In fact the only reasion I bought the infameous 700PSS From Hell (tm) last year was because Interarms was in the process of going tits up at the time and there were no 1500 Howa barreled actions to be found. I wish I had held out, in all honesty.

Can you tell that I like Howas? :)

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 02:48:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well guys, just got back from the subgun class, and I'm not wearing a beret. I can tell you that the Uzi is NOT what I would choose for myself given the preference, it's just not easy for me to work (the second most important part, the safety!). And I find it also rather refreshing that I had written off the subgun as something that I wouldn't want to be weighed down with, and now I have imperical evidence to back that up. Remember 308Dude, I only learn the hard way, by trying it ;-) Reminds me of when James told me to just trust my instincts. Here's the fun part though, seems that there's a running bet among the range instructors, involving 20 rounds as a single burst. To get dinner, it's kept in the K-zone. I kept my target, got 19. HA! In all though, I'd suggest anyone in the area to head out there, as it's completely free, and a blast besides. I'm guessing each of us (3 in this class including me) burned about 600 to 700 rounds. It was quite surprising to find out the similarities between it and a carbine, and what was completely different (in it's use). Also, I'm kind of used to rifles that "talk to me", as in tell me what they're doing by listening to the action (is that wierd?), and these open bolt jobbies talk a LOT but don't say anything. Moral of the story? If it's a 9, it's gonna be a Glock for me. Anything short and light will be a 5.56 NATO. Hey Mike, does that sound like something you've said (see, I WAS listening!)?
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 03:35:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone have any experience with Scattergun Technologies? they specialize in modifying Remington 870's and 1100's for SWAT / tactical use. Any other information / sites about tachical shotguns would be appreciated.
CDALE25 <>
Raleigh, NC, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 05:58:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
I think ScattergunTechnologies is now a part of Wilson Combat. As Wilson was gearing up to start producing AR15s either shortly before the ARs or shortly after they starting doing shotguns also. The ScattergunTechnologies guns are good guns but the majority of the work done on them can probably be done by an at home do it yourselfer.

Just my opinion.

I do like an old ScattergunTech 11-87 type gun called the urbansniper. Fully rifled barrel for shooting the saboted slugs, had an 8 round capacity and a cantiliver scope mount. Would certainly deliver a hell of a thump down range. Accuracy was touted to be good enough that blowing a door lock from 100 yards would be possible. Should still be possible for a home do-it-yourselfer though once you got all the right parts.
B. Douglas <>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 08:10:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tikkas and TRGs

My previous commnets about Tikka were somewhat harsh because I had just been comparing Badger and DD Ross Triggerguards which really guard the trigger in case the rifle is dropped. Tikkas plastic one is not in their league.

For normal hunting and target shooting Tikka rifles with heavy barrels are really top notch and they are cheaper than comparable Sakos. Accuracywise I think Tikkas have a small edge over Sako 75´s.

So Tikka is a good buy for normal use. For sniping and dragging it trough mud and sand I know stronger constructions.

TRG-21 is discontinued and in future they are renamed TRG-22. These rifles have some changes done to them that were required by Finnish Defense Forces when they ordered TRG-42s. So TRG-22 is not adopted officially by any army yet, but it contains the improvements that TRG-42s have.

Both TRG-21 and TRG-22 are VERY accurate, they have modular stocks to play with, the barrel is first rate and they have 10 round detachable magazines. (Take the stainless barrel version if you can choose). The only complaints I have is that it is not produced in a left-handed version (probably doesn´t matter at all to most people) and the trigger pack seems to be too complicated for real life sniper use. The Finnish Military is happy with it, so it should work in the woods too. Anyway the trigger is adjustable for all things imaginable. For example the trigger can be moved back and forth and the trigger face can be turned in case you want to adjust it.

So TRG-22 is a very good rifle and if you can buy it in the US for less than 2500 USD it should be a much better rifle than any souped up Rem 700 for similar price. I would buy a left-handed TRG-22 in a heart beat. So if you are right handed you should not afraid to buy one.

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 09:12:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Andy and I got home from the Rendezvous late last night. Now we will spend today cleaning and drying out our gear. We had a ball. We learned a lot and met some great people. We will go back next year and by then we'll be much better prepared. This match was a great test of skills. Ours were found lacking and now we know what to work on. I stongly recomend that anyone interested in sniping attend this match. It is a great opportunity to test your skills and see how others are equipped and trained. The training value of this match is huge! Thanks go out to Rod and the rest of the crew at SMTC.
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 10:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Terry; and if you bead blast a fluted barrel?
Bravo; Hate to tell you, but that UZI is about the best, so where does that leave the rest? Good shooting to keep 19 in the kill zone, try that with a M-14 or M-16 some time. /The AK-47 not bad for such a big shell.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 12:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
Chuck...I DID NOT get a chance to check on the M-70 for you. SORRY. We were swamped on the range this weekend with idiots that can shoot the target returns, but CANNOT hit the little blue man hanging from it...go figure. I will check with all of our distributors this evening and see if it is possible to locate one in .308 for you. I'm anxious for you to get one, I'd like to see it myself. Be easier for you to travel here to pick it up?

Went to the rifle range saturday AND sunday morning. Thought about you guys at SMTC this week end. Lucky HOGS. Hope you gents had a blast, pun intended.

Anyone going to the SOF convention in Vegas? I may be there with the owner of the Range I work at on the weekends and Jim Cirillo. We will be hawking the custom .338 LM's we are marketing...come see us if we make it....we are on a waiting list for a table, so hopefully someone will drop out and we'll get a spot. Mr. Cirillo is hawking some super atomic blaster bullet the goes 3000fps....yes that is an extra zero on there. I think the caliber is .460. and they claim to have a .40 that goes 2000 fps out of a handgun no less. I gotta see this. Get by the convention and look him up.
Cory <>
No Nome De Plumeage either, Fl., USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 13:14:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


how does the eagle saddle cheekpiece work with the A4 stock? I hate the adj. comb with a passion and didn't know if that piece worked.

Rob & Gerald,

I sent the pics of my TAC-ORD this morning, beware, it is a hefty down load, sorry about that.

Semper Fi

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 13:22:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kush, take the Eagle stock pad and slit the rear sewing. Take out the pad and sew back together. Take the A4 adjustable cheek piece and throw it in a drawer. Put the Eagle pad on and use as is for a MK4 scope or one of equal heigth.

Cory, is this the same guy as the NYPD Stakeout fame? If so I would like to meet him. He teaches nothing like the big schools but who could argue on his success. I once watched a tape of his exploits. I think we agree on the just shoot it thing. Dont fret,I will work on a name for you

On the scabbard/bag thing, you Hogs as some of you are known (me I was named for the BIg Libowski?. Thanks Pete) I will build a proto type if someone has something pinned together. If it works we can work something out for DR guys, but it wont be for general sale.

Proud to be Undude.LOL
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 15:08:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Been considering a laser rangefinder and specifically the Bushnell 500 Yardage Pro. Any comments? Also, what about mil-dot binoculars for ranging?
Mark Tucker <>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mr. Bill!!!!!!, you double your pleasure, double your fun, with a bead blasted and fluted gun!!!!!!!!!!.
I say GO fer' it!......doing both would be a most excellent way to go OLLIE!!!!!!!!
Two Shoes
from the land of double mint twins.
Terry <>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:26:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
Undude...yup, Same Jim Cirillo, Lives here in Panama City now. Comes into the store from time to time. Tells some GREAT stories that I'm sure he could NEVER put into a book. He buys guns from us. He and another dude, whose name escapes me a the moment, are developing a new composite bullet/round that travels at some ungodly speed out of a handgun. He was in yesterday and was telling us some about it. He is a genuine character for sure. Very interesting to listen to. He has forgotten more about gunfighting than I'll ever know. But then again, I don't have the drive for handguns that I do for rifles. I train with a handgun to stay proficient, but I figure if I'm caught using only a hand gun, something has gone WAY wrong. I'm a rifleman.

My buds have been calling me Lame Bear since the wreck,('Cause I'm know to play Smokey Bear from time to time for some of the community schools, they give me hell about dressing in the bear costume) but my wife gets pissed with white guys taking indian names ( she is Native American) she says it's more like lame dog! HA! She modified that the other night to "you dog". I think she was mad at me?

Dragbag idea sounds cool...Let me know how I can assist you.

Cory <>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mark: I'll bite. I've never seen any mildot binos, you thinking of the graticule ones? I've got some, with the thoughts of ranging with them. I wasn't impressed. The 5 mil lines aren't precise enough for me. I will on the spotting scope, but I won't on the next pair of binos (well, MAYBE I will).

Cory: let me know when you'll be in the area, and I'll show. Heck, might even call in a comp time day too. I didn't realize it'd been a year already. Those SOF guys really hammer our steel. They don't care what they break either. It's impressive to see steel react to 50's and such, but not fun for us later when we have to find a welder. If the brew is out by then, I'll bring some too. You got the dates?

Wild Bill: you got that right, the Uzi impressed me WAY more than the Ingram did. My point though is that I can put one round of 7.62 from a M-14 into a target probably faster than I can a burst from the Uzi. I think the power is about equivalent there, 1X7.62 = 3X9mm. Reaction and shooting with the M-16A2 was just as easy as the Uzi, and I'll take 2 rounds from a AR in semi over a burst of 9 from a Uzi any time. Without a timer, I can't be positive, but I think that's about the same time. I guess that's the way I'd want it too, as I can't see training with the Uzi to get me out to the 200 yard line reliably when I could easily double that with the CAR with the same reaction time. Or double that distance with a M-14. As for auto though, the Corps taught that a burst is a waste of ammo, and my Dad taught me the same for the M-14.
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:53:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

You're 100% right about the Uzi. We had to train on them (atleast Fam Fire them) at MSG school in Quantico. Not to compare apples to oranges, but if I had to carry a subgun in 9mm, I'll take the MP5. And if I had my choice of calibers, the HK53 in .223 or the M4 variant the XM15, also in .223. We used the MP5 on personal protection duties in "A" Co. I loved the damn things.

Thanks, man. I figured if I got my M70 from gun-fun I could get zeroed at the range out in P.C. Kill two birds with one stone. Let me know when you're free.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:26:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well Chuck, now I know how big of a guy you are (HA!) as my hand fit the MP-5 worse than it did the Uzi. I like the ergonomics of the Uzi better, as it's easier for me to find a pistol grip to shove a mag into than a mag well up front (NEVER take your eyes off the target);-)

Wild Bill: did some re-thinking, you may be right. It might be because I'm spoiled out here in the "wide open" or maybe too much rifleman indoctrination, but if my area had 200 yard "longshots" and mostly within 50 yards (forrests?), I'd think really heavy about the Uzi. For out here though, no thanks.
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 22:34:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


We missed you at the match, be there next year oh-tay?

After this weekends fun, I believe a short case may be a good idea. I did the stalk w/o drag bag this year, using the "Brown" TIS sling for an over the forearm carry and a Eagle scope cover and taped the muzzle.(It had to be a hoot for the walkers to watch I'm sure.....)

The "catch spots" in the S/M grass were the bipod legs, the Accushot Monopod (Which I figured would happen, but JUST had to test it), and the rear velcro strap on the scope cover.

Maybe a scaled down hybred Eagle scope cover and DB-BS bag/mat that covers the action, scope, forearm to bipod and retains the fastex clip on the front. If you could rig it to sight-shoot-and cycle through that would be waaaaay cool un-dude!


Sore Muscle City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

An MP5 is one weapon I have always wanted to own. I have read over the ATF's web site but it is about as clear as mud as to what the requirements are! I see I have to buy it from someone in my own state and it is a $200 fee (tax) Anyone know what all is involved in the process? All this talk of the machine guns is re-kindling the desire.

John McGrath <>
Springfield (home of the Simpsons), Missouri, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, I've shot the MP-5 and a number of others. I've also shot competetion against machine gunners. Me with a 1911. The only one I feared was a guy with an old worn out looking UZI. The MP-5's Jammed occasionally and were hard to hold on target. But the UZI man would clean my clock. I'd be just like you and probably prefer a 1911 at close range and a rifle for 25 yards and beyond. The matches were run and shoot type stuff like they do today but all that counted was time and the best 2 hits (5pts each) in the Kill Zone. Reload when you ran out and hostages took off 15 points. We also did quick draw stuff with the Machine guns on forward point with safety on against the 1911 in the holster. There was very little difference even up to 3 to 5 targets. What I learned was... don't draw on a machine gunner if he is already pointing at you and the range is close.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:30:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sako TRG-21/41's,

Hexa you are right on target, however I would say both Sako & Tikka are the same accuracy wise,as I thought they both used the same barrel's,I might be wrong there.
I like the look of the stock on the Tikka Sporter ( Target type stock),and it appears to be the same as the stock used on the Target version of the Sako Finnfire Range model (.22lr),it's a pity that there is not a Fibreglass version for both weapons.
I am thinking of getting a Sako Finnfire Range model,to use as a cheap (ammo) training gun,set up the same way as one of my TRG sniper guns,same optics,lenght of pull etc.

My 1st centrefire rifle after my old Sako Forrester (.22-250),was a Winchester M-70,the only reason I brought it was it had a Big Suppressor fitted and looked cool,so I brought it.
A few years after getting the M-70,I started reading the stuff on this site,and it convinced me to sell the M-70 and get into a M-700,as virtually all the after market accessorie's were geared up around the M-700.So I put a for sale sign on the M-70,and brought a M-700,with the intention of custom building it into a Tac rifle.
Luckly for me NO ONE wanted the M-70,and after actually getting the M-700 and stripping it and having a real good look at it,decided it was not some thing I wanted to sink good money into.
So the Rem M-700 is for sale,and YES I will sell it,the M-70 is looking like a MUCH better option to build on.
As I have said earlier,another very good option is the HOWA action,sort of a M-70/M-700/Old Sako mix.

Reguarding the Sako series of TRG rifle's,I have a 21 in .308,and a 41 in .338 Lapua Magnum ,and the only guns that will ever replace either in my gun rack,are the improved 22/42 model's.
Unless you have cycled a TRG,you really have not experienced SMOOTH,and for quick follow up shot's,the action really has to be experienced to fully appreciated.It is a machine.

I only have 3 real gripes with the TRG series, old or new,

1,They do not offer a painted finish,ie moly,epoxy,resin etc,(Green or Brown,are suitable colours)

2,I would like to see a REAL good Serious TAC profile,optomised for a Large Suppressor,same std barrel lenght,however set up for a can like what Ops Inc make,ie threaded muzzle,and a 20-30 degree taper 8-10 inches back from the muzzle,for a 2-point mount.

3,A non-adjsutable trigger for those of us who are not in the Olympic Team.

Having said that,I do not know of any Major company that offer's, the 2-point suppressor profile as std or an option.

If I had too list the gripes I have with the Rem-M-700 series,I think I would run out of space on this site.

Later Chris

Chris <>
New Zealand - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Long-time lurker, first time poster, etc.

I'm fairly new at the whole precision rifle addiction, and have a probably silly question. Please explain the advantages of the longer, heavier barrel rifles. I have a stainless/synthetic .308 Tikka, new out of the box, and after break-in, it shot a 0.414", 3 round group with Fed. 168 gr. Gold Medal match at 100 yards. With a 22" barrel, am I losing performance in the 500-800 yard arena, and, in a slow-fire or one-shot scenario, am I losing some level of accuracy? I only have access to a 200 meter range right now, but at 200m, performance seems comparable, with a slightly larger new-shooter wobble factor.

I'm not looking to start arguments, but I honestly want to know what I'm missing (could be the justification for that Tikka Sporter at the local shop). I know these are pretty basic questions, so feel free to reply via my e-mail addy to save discussion space here.

One thought - I've seen discussions on several boards about the lack of the Revolutionary Spirit in today's population. I agree with the sentiment, but I think a better model for today can be found in the Boer Wars.


Henry J.
Henry J. <>
Wilm., N.C., USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:04:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

John McGrath: Here's your tip for the day: get ahold of one, or at least the red gun version of one, before putting cash down. If your hands are like mine, you WILL NOT like where the safety is located. After that, just tell the dealer you're interested. They keep the paperwork for just such an emergency ;-) Bring money though, mags aren't cheap!

Brother Bill: I'm sure there are those folks out there that CAN do it, heck, they did the same thing in the class. The instructor would stand next to me with a holstered 45 auto. When the RO flipped the targets, in his words "I want to hear BUUUUUURP bang!, not bang BUUUUUURP!". From field ready I could beat 'em by the end of the day. He had me on headshots and multiples though. As for me, (odd enough) I felt like I could beat myself EASY with the Glock.
Bravo <>
slow day, eh?, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:09:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike Miller, Good talking to you on the phone, One more voice I can put to the person behind the key board.

Chuck....located a source for the Stealth. I'll e-mail you with the price. I'll call again in the AM and get them to tell me WHEN. They did not call me back today. I go in for surgery on October 10th and I should be home for 4 to 6 weeks after that. Pick a week end when the rifle gets here and come-n-get it. We'll go up to our club range (totally private) and get it sighted in. What are you going to do for a scope?

Bravo, I just hope we find out about the table for the SOF convention in time to reschedule my operation on my damn knee. OR I don't get to go..I think the dates are the 11, 12, 13 of October or something like that. I need to look again to be sure. We are on a waiting list. I guess they thought about going to late.
Cory <>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:14:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill, Bravo,
I've never had an MP5 jam on me. I always used the SMG 9mm ammo, however. It's a bit hotter than standard 9 mil. Even though I carried an M249 SAW at times in the Corps, I just can't seem to get used to the open bolt thing. That disuaded me from the Uzi, before I even ran any rounds through it. Personal opinion would be a decent shotgun (FabArms, Benelli, etc) with a 1911-A1 on my hip for the close stuff. Maybe that's reflecting the State Dept. training, maybe it's just the Terminator Philosophy.

You the man!! I appreciate it. I'll probably get a Vari-X III tactical for a scope. I'll check out the badger rings, etc. in the mean time.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address:


Hi gang,

Does anyone happen to know, or have a suggestion for, the appropriate torque for the action screws on the aforementioned .308 Savage? I called Savage today, but was asked to call back as no one was available that knew the answer! Makes me wonder if there is an "official" Savage answer :-(


Black Rifle <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:55:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chuck, Bravo...subguns, yuck. Get your mind back on REAL weapons:) I got off track and bought a subgun myself. Now I've got a bullet hose that cost a buuunnnccch to feed. I should be spending that money on MATCH AMMO! (LOL).
Cory <>
The Same Banana Republic Bravo lives in, Florida, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 04:12:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello returning rendezvooers!!

Bead blast and flute?

What a coincidence, that's what I'm doin' with the 7-08 Rem!! I halved my flute depth and opted to NOT teflon my barrel, I am bead blasting and was going to spin the ribs (polished finish) but I think I will leave her as is or possibly just paint the pig. I really don't see the point of having a stress relieved barrel reheated for a couple hours just to get a damned black coat on her!! I'll heat that baby up behind the bag, ya hear!

Youse guys should check out this site:

This is my buddy Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe's barrel shop out of Scotland, and he has a hell of a site, as well as barrelmaking facility. He's got pics and info valuable to all shooters. He also has a ballistics program you can download from the site, with an internal ballistics program, an external ballistics program, a .22 rimfire ballistics program, a twist calculation program and a powder equivalence chart. He also has a couple pics of both types of Pratt & Whitney riflers, just like the ones I use everyday, 'cept he must not work as hard as me since they're all clean and spiffy, heheh. Check it out dudes, and you too undude....

Check ya later

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 04:40:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jermey RE: the Howa 1500

My bud has a Howa 1500 Police model and it suprized the hell out of me. It out shoots and is made so much better than the Savage FP I have it's not even funny. The things are made well (bolt face runout was almost .000) and the action/trigger was unexepectedly smooth. I just ordered one for myself. With a little tweeking I think it will shoot with my Rem 700s. For the price $359 (1500 police model) you can't go wrong. The stock will be the first thing I tackle, as the factory stock seems a little flimsy. The Rem 700s will stay my main line rifle primarily because of the parts available, smiths and overall general knowledge around on them. But I think the 1500 will be able to shoot with the PSS's.

Good luck
Joe <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 07:53:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm new to this site, as far as posting, that is. Anyway, My latest project is the Savage 10FP in .308. I just couldn't resist the price and all the good things being said about this very basic platform. Sure, some things aren't perfect on this rifle but accuracy reports have been quite impressive. I've mounted a Leupold 4-9x40 Vari-X II with factory installed windage and elevation target knobs, and I'm ordering a just released Timney trigger for the 10FP. That's all the tweaking I'm going to do with it for a while, may consider a better stock when the right one becomes available.
Another project I'm considering is a compact .308 "Tactical" (for lack of a better description) This being based on the Remington 700 ADL Youth model. This is also a budget gun.
Still considering a Bushnell Yardage Pro 500, I figure some practice ranging and estimating range using this device will train my ability to estimate range visually and with the reticle. Any comments on this?
Mark Tucker <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 09:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

John McGrath

To own a Title 2/Class III firearm (aka Machinegun) all that is required is:

1. Live in a state which permits private ownership of a Class III firearm.
2. Have a Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) willing to do a background check on you.
3. Submit an FBI fingerprint card, Form 4 application, recent picture, and $200.00 to the treasury department.
4. Be prepared to wait 90 days for approval before being able to take possession of the firearm.

All of these requirements ASSUME that you are legally permitted to already own firearms, ie. no felonies or mental impairment.

Usually the only trying part of this entire process is finding a CLEO willing to "sign-off" on you, although there are other ways around this, such as being incorporated or getting a district attorney or judge to sign for you.

The process does have its peculiarities, but these are the basic requirements.

Gonzo <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 11:56:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just a quick comment on range finders, get the 800 or the 1000yd ones. Theres not that much more in cost and they work a lot better. The 400yd or 500yd ones are good to about half the advertised range as is the case with most all the cheaper range finders unless your ranging a house. I got around a maximum of 650 with the 1000yd model on what I would consider and easy target to range (IPSC target).
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 11:57:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mark - Rangefinders:

I did some quick testing with the Bushnell pro 1000 laser range finder. During bright days... the best you'll get is about 800 yards... I was easily able to range a house, barn, etc. This is because that big solar generator that we have is emitting light in the same band as your laser range finder... so your max ranges are gonna be down in bright sunlight.
This also depends on how reflective your target is as well.

In lower light conditions - late afternoon - I was able to range on a treeline and grain bins at around 1030 and 1038 yards.... reliably...

The pro 1000 also has different modes for scanning, rain, meters/yards..., etc.

Those other modes have to do with ignoring erroneous reflections generated by grass, leaves, etc... which is really good. However, the target that you are ranging has to be beyond say 150 yards or so.

You can find these on Ebay, etc. You'll pay around 350+ for those - and darn well worth the money....

All - Rifle... younz out there looking for winchesters... check out this on the emporium:

I was told by a reliable source - that this is a good purchase...

ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 12:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

To all who got to go to SMTC, you lucky dogs!!!
That place is heaven, lately Ive had to wear out my John Denver CD, "WV, take me home country roads" wishing I was down at Storm Mountain training under Rod Ryan.

"Im busted here and got Dixie(well SMTC) on my mind"

anyone in CT?
Matt <>
New Haven, CT, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 12:34:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yeah. Fairfield.

On Lasers... don't bother with the little Bushnells... Get the Bush 1000, or get ready to spend really BIG bucks.
Don't get the Leica, it's a dog-a-roo, and they are being recalled (they'll range a house at 250... HA!).

Anybody got stiff loads for the .223 with the 75gr A-Max in a bolt gun... no pussy gas gun loads please. E-mail them to me!

Pablito <>
Lookin' in the bottom of my closit for my pistol fightin' junk ;)) in good ol' Connecticut, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks to all the Staff and sponsors at the SMTC Rendezvous for a great match this year. It was a blast. Congrates to the winners. Can't wait until next year. Ken we need to get our lefts and rights together for next year. Great teaming with you.

Q: Any recommendations for a good Sig Sauer P229 smith? I Am considering Novak's. Any other suggestions?

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Found a "Stealth" yesterday, will pick it up Friday. Any peculiarities I should know about before shooting. How are the triggers? The safety position is new to me. I didn't have a lot of time to check it out as I had to get back to work, but it looks like you operate the safety with the index finger. I like the idea of not possibly having your finger on the trigger(M700) while operating the safety, my favorite safety is of the M1A variety. Now I need to sell the PSSDM although I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy, I guess I will send it back while it is still under warranty or wait for the class action suit. Decided I like the LTR well enough to keep it. I'm sure it has something to do with that .119 fluke group which by the way I have not been no where close to reproducing, groups average slightly less than .625 MOA with Sierra 2140's(165 gr Gameking). Gotta go make reloading list.
Medulla762 <>
Splendora, Texas, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:24:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tony Y.
RE: Sig 'smith

The best Sig Sauer gunsmith by far is TJ at TJ's Custom Gun Works, at

Gonzo <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:31:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

SMTC Rendesvovs Match

I would like to say thanks to Rod and the staff at the match for all the hard work they put in to run it.

And thanks to the sponsors for their interest and support. Mildot Master, Blade-Tech, KUSA Camouflage, Don Hume Leather, U.S. Tactical Supply, Schmidt and Bender, Blackhawk Industries, Tac-Ord, AMS Systems, Tactical Intervention Specialties, H-S Precision Inc, Paladin Press, Zelco, Whitemarsh Arms, Ken Hunter & Aspiring Technologies, Dave King, Tip Top Products Inc. Lawmen Supply, Slope Doper, Nielsen-Kellerman.

And to all the shooters. Who had a great time. I would like to see you all their next year. And to see your support to the sponsors.

MICH, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:41:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


Comeing this spring at SMTC, Rod is haveing an SMG class with MP5's. Looks like alot of fun and a good time to all.

MI, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:54:06 (ZULU) (your host address:


I've had a Busy Yardage Pro 1000 for close to a year now and I have to say, don't waste your money. The LCD display moves around depending on which side you lay the unit down on. So, the sucker no longer ranges at the spot where the reticle points.
Not cool at all. I don't know if this same problem occurs with other models, but my Pro 1000 is sure hosed because of it.

Before it took a dump on me, though, I could hit freeway overpass signs at nearly 1500yds pretty regularly. It's just that damn LCD...

Roger C.

P.S. - Been lurking for a while, first time post. Learned lots of stuff here so far.
Roger C. <>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address:


No quirks... it's a plug and play riffle.

The trigger is easy, and Winchester doesn't mind if you adjust it... no sealers or epoxie on the screws.
You will need 2 tiny 1/4" open ended wrenches... get 'em at the hobby store, or the hardware store.
Loosen the two nuts that are together (next to the spring), and they control the pull weight. If you back them all the way down, and it isn't light enough, then pull the trigger pin PART way out, so the trigger comes out, but the other stuff stays there. Then cut one 1 turn off the spring, and put it back together. I only had to cut one spring out of four guns M70/HBV's (aka Stealth's).

Loosen the other single nut on the other side to adjust overtravel... that's it... engagement is fixed by the machining of the trigger, and I've never felt it needed work.
The Winchester is as good out of the box, as you're going to get (from a factory gun)... if you need better, then get a Jewel.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:59:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tony Y. Give Kurt Wickmann a call.
He was at Novak's for 10 years and moved to Ohio last year and opened his own place.

He has done work on about 5 pistols of mine. His pistol work is fantastic and he is incredibably fair. I recently sent him a used SIG and requested that he do a bunch of stuff to it. Well, instead of doing all the work and sending me a bill, he first really checked out the pistol. He found that there were some problems with the pistol and he suggested that I get rid of it and not spend money smithing it! He could have just done all the work and not said anything.

This is the same kind of honesty that I get from Jerry Rice at NorCal Precision as well! Give him a call call at: 740-594-8049

Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE subguns: I want to comment with my two cents regarding subguns. I have owned and shot quite a few thousand rounds in uzis (have owned both 9mm and .45 acp) guns; macs (have owned both 9 mm and .45 acp) in Powder Springs guns, and HK MP5 K PDW (the sp89 conversion with foregrip and folding stock), as well as 10/22 full autos, and for defensive purposes, which was discussed, I would prefer if I was going to take a full auto weapon, the M16. While I am around a lot of machineguns on a weekly basis, in refinishing, etc., I would not normally consider them the best defensive weapon unless 3 factors are present: the correct penetration, the correct sighting system and massive practice, at least ever couple of weeks.

I have tested a car door for instance with a .45 acp full metal jacket round and found it will not penetrate.

If the bad guy is wearing body armor, which I would if I was one, your 9 mm or .45 round may not penetrate, and probably will not. You have at least a chance with a .223 round unless you hit a cermic plate.

But for defensive purposes, a machine gun is much overrated. It is very easy to hit a couple of rounds in the target and hit the others over its head. Even shooting with say 3 or 4 human silouettes at 20 yards, it takes a lot of practice to do short bursts from the hip and hit all 3 in 5 seconds, where with a handgun and practice you can hit all 3 dead chest center.

If you are going to use a machine gun for defensive purposes, mount a good red dot sight on it.

They are fun for competition or enjoyment but not necessarily the best self defense weapon unless you have the proper sights (a red dot or acog) and practice a lot. If the issue of penetration is also considered, you will limit your choices further for defensive purposes.
tschiemer <>
AR, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address:


Yours got broke. Send it back, they'll fix or replace it... this is not normal for these units.

Of the under $1000 lasers, it's the best around. I've had one of the smaller units for 5 years (the first one they made), and it plays like I got it yesterday.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:04:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim LeMay:

WTF Dude...trying to Email ya a picture...

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----

----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 <>... Host unknown (Name server: host not found)

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for the tip. I'll talk to Bushnell today.

Roger C. <>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lemay,missed ya man...let me know in e-mail if you get chance the good scoop and who was there
Matt <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:29:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
There was some talk about the 6X M3. You can get one with a target dot here: Loopy

They want $600. Looie will change it to mil dot for about $130. Don't know what Premier charges.

I quit reading the roster until after semester, so e-mail any responses.

CDC <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Great site indeed! I especially found " THE MAKING OF A RIFLED BARREL" BY Geoffrey Kolbe article to be very interesting. Always wondered how.

Thanks for the M70 dope.

Medulla762 <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 15:12:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Alright guys,
Got some poop on the Stealth. I e-mailed, and they have 'em for $594.00 plus I think twenty bucks for shipping.
On useless camo gear...rolling papers!!(I work part time in a cigar shop, we see all sorts of stupid crap)

Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 15:58:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Regarding stupid camoflaged stuff:

Womens lingerie!!!!! Why would I want Venus to cover her ASSets with that stuff. I want to be able to find it when I go lookin!!!!!

Zippo lighters!!! It kinda seems stupid when as soon as ya strike that puppy all yer concealment is compromised.


Play Hard!
Mars <>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 17:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just back from SMTC.... The place was crawling with such a unique group of people! Integrity was the only common thread.

Seriously, I had such a good time I'm afraid they are gonna make it illegal before next year.

I'd like to thank Chuck Underwood of KUSA camo for helping me upgrade my pathetic ghillie into something that passed the stalk undetected ... also Ken of "Snipercountry" fame... The prize he donated to the comp. allowed me to attend for free.....What a great experience the whole thing was....

Pete Greiff and Mrs G were such friendly, down to earth people you'd think you knew them all your life... and Mrs G screaming "save my baby" at a volume in excess of those encountered on an aircraft carrier deck certainly made the stress course a challenge.

The team to beat was courtesy of the Swedish Military...Urban Lindfors and Stigolof Hollstrom could only be described as a "machine". They showed us how to handle both skill and humility....

Team Mussack will be down right dangerous next year....I think Andy will be "stress-master" next year...stand-by.

If you didn't make it this missed out.

more to come soon... I have pictures being developed...

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 17:43:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

I've got some questions and I thought I would answer them enmasse here. On the shooting schools I (note the personal statement of opinion) preferred what James and Mike put on more than I did the Front Sight school. Mike was ALWAYS quick to help out with instruction, and trust me, I need it. Not just as in class room type stuff, but actually on the line stuff like changing my ingrained "roll over prone" from hi-power stuff to a sniper prone. Obviously this was one-on-one instruction, and that personal help was TRULY appreciated. RB and Bob were constantly around giving tips and help, and made things run so smooth it was great. Basically what I got from Mike and James that I felt was missing at Front Sight was the PERSONAL help (not just professional as a job, but as a friend would WANT to help). There was no question that if I didn't try to stop it, they would send me away as a much better shooter. Now this is my opinion, and there's lots more, but that will be upon request ;-)

And to clear something else up for which I've been taken to task: yes, I know Section 8 of Article 1 (the same one I posted on before) gives congress the authority to call up the militia. However, as with all federal laws, it only applies to federal citizens. And yes, I also know that amendment 14 makes me a dual citizen (federal and state), but the states have first authority. That's why the state guard can be called (and has been) to repel the national guard. States have the jurisdiction, and the fed has the leftovers. Further reading of the Federalist papers will give all the details better than I can, and explain why it is that I have a Utah drivers license and not a United States drivers license. BAH!
Bravo <>
the banana republic, where people don't know thier lineage, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 18:06:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


Thanks for the info. I called my favorite gun dealer today about the MP5 and he said no problem he just did one for a guy few weeks back BUT........................................ it was $8000.00!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because of the law passed in 1986 prohibiting the mfg of new machine guns for personal law abidding constitution defending individuals!!!!!!!!! Now if I was law enforcement then I can buy the weapon for $1100.00 new. But then again if I was a person of the low integrity, low morale variety aka. CRIMINAL I could probally aquire the weapon for less money and in less time than the law enforcement agency!!! But the law is the law. I wonder if the senators and congressmen that voted that bill into law are still holding seats? Then I would definetly not vote for them in the next election. Since the power of the vote is our only real say in matters.

John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:20:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

How many feet per second faster does a bullet leave the barrel if I'm shooting a 26" instead of a 24", like most reloading manuals and ballistic charts show? I want to run some numbers and am not sure what to expect for muzzle velocity from my factory ammo out of this longer tube. BTW, it is a 308 Winchester. I usually shoot Federal Premium 165 SBT's (P308C) for hunting season. Factory on the 165's is 2700 out of 24 incher. I also do not have access to a chronograph. Any help would be appreciated.


Bob <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:26:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

You rule!
Unfortunately most people went to a school like I did that taught us that the Constitution was a really important piece of paper that a bunch of important people signed. They never emphasized anything the document said. You had to be in an advanced government class to hear about anything the actually said. If you had a desire to learn the truth about your country, you had to research it yourself. My schools highest priority was to pump out kids with high scores so they could feed the college machine. Nevermind teaching what acually happened in the Civil War, or what our founding fathers stood for and how it affects us today. They were concerned about how to keep up their award winning football team without firing the coach for giving players steroids, or covering up the incident when almost half of the cheerleading team got arrested for shoplifting at Disneyland.
Richard Stark <>
Los Repeublica de la Banana, California, (I think)USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:41:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

This muzzle velocity / barrel length thing has been covered here many times before.
You cannot extrapolate your muzzle velocity, by comparing your barrel length to the factory test barrel.
If you took twenty .308 rifles, from good makers, all with 24" barrels, and tested them with the same batch of Fed 168 GM... the velocities would range from 2550 to over 2700.
So test your own gun, and don't worry what the catalogue says.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:58:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Richard: thanks, but I don't rule. Things would be MUCH different if I did ;-)

John: yeah, that's the other thing. They're way out of proportion to the expense. You want cheap, get a M2 carbine. They're fun, but I wouldn't take one to a fight any more than I would a MP-5 (about 300 yds is it). Hint: they're more fun with a worn out recoil spring. Just out of curiousity, would you consider your right to have that MP-5 infringed? I guess that doesn't matter though as you can't find MP-5's in the current US arms rooms, so it's not proper for milita use. If I had that kind of dough to blow, there'd be a WHOLE LOT more stuff in the safe than a MP5! Heck, I'd even buy a 50 before I got a SMG.
Bravo <>
banana republic, you know the rest, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 01:05:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

The ride home from the Sniper Rendezvous gave Andy and I a chance to conduct a rather lengthy After Action Review. We came away from SMTC with a pile of lessons learned. I figured I'd write down what we learned and then share it with my fellow "Rosterfarians".

100 Yard Grouping:
We both shot nice tight groups cutting the edge of the target diamond. So, zero points for us. My guess is that under stress we both tucked it in a little differently resulting in a small but significant shift to the point of impact. Our plan is to practice against the clock using a similar target to the one used at SMTC.

I did ok on this event. I got the creeps putting a crosshair on a live human being until I remembered it was only Rod. ;-)
Andy stepped out of the treeline to get his bearings and ended up staring up at the business end of Rod's binoculars. Busted!
We both will practice before next year. Land navigation will be on the training schedule. The "Wookie Suit" will have to go. Less is more when it comes to burlap. I witnessed a guy in a T-shirt stalk to within pistol range and take his first shot. Route selection, masking and slow deliberate movement seem to be as important as camouflage.

Moving Target:
Yikes!!! Close range + Fast Moving Target + 10X Scope = Miss, Miss, Miss, Hit
Next year I'll bring my M3LR to use 3.5X. Practice + Practice + Practice = Hit, Hit, Hit, Miss (maybe)

We did pretty well. We could have done better if we had brought along clipboards and ballpoint pens. The ability to write fast was critical. The lack of a writing surface and the use of .5mm mechanical pencils made things difficult.

Target Detection:
You can't do it with 7X35 Binoculars. A spotting scope is required. This event was a disaster for us. We'll be properly equipped next year and we'll know what sort of stuff we're looking for.

Range Estimation:
It was a straightforward exercise. Only practice can improve our scores here. You just can't wish yourself skillful. You've got to invest time and effort in practice. Just knowing the principle is not enough.

Stress Fire:
We did ok. Getting into better physical shape could help here. We'll both work out seriously before the next Rendezvous. More upper body strength would help shorten the times on this event. Effective earplugs are also important.

Field Fire:
We were shooting 168-grain BTHP bullets powered by IMR 4895. Our loads were burning cool and there was plenty of wind, fog and rain. We were missing pretty badly when we got to the Slag Pile targets and then we got lucky. The clouds rolled in and caused the field firing to be suspended. That event got thrown out. Thank God or Rod. Next year we'll have 175-grain BTHP bullets powered by Varget. We will also invest in a Kestrel Wind Meter and do our homework on wind reading. Again, understanding the principles isn't enough. Real skill can only come from practice.

Aside from being a lot of fun the Sniper Rendezvous at SMTC was a very productive training experience. I recommend this event to anyone who is serious about the art and science of sniping. However, I must warn you, it can be a very sobering experience. Andy and I got our eyes opened last weekend. Lessons were learned. We can't wait 'till next year.

Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 01:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


Yes I do feel my rights have been taken away by them jacking the price up so high. I dont mind the finger prints. Hell the Army gets them plus my DNA,picture and a background check. Just let me buy them at the legitmate costs.


John McGrath <>
Springfield, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 02:12:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

My name is Aaron and I am stationed In SOCAL. I am an active duty Marine. I am about to EAS and I am seriously thinking about buying a serious Rifle. I will soon have my FFL and am hoping to acquire a 50 cal. My wuestion is what would the best scope be for a rifle with that type of range. I was thinking either Kahles or a VariXIII from leopold. Little help here. Thanks.
Aaron Davis <>
Camp Pendleton, California, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 04:30:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
24 vs 26" barrels:

Thanks Pablito, that makes a lot of sense. I always hear guys claiming that the longer tube yields more velocity, but I guess not if you have a smooth Hart or Krieger in 24"...I guess I'll have to find someone with a chrono to find out for sure.

Also thanks TwoShoes for your e-mail, your experience was helpful to me.

Bob <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 05:18:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for information about Steyr tactical rifles. Anyone with experience using them can help me. I am particularly interested in the accuracy of the short barreled "urban" model. Any real world info you have on SSG's or the new SBS is appeciated.
Mike Jones <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 05:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just tore a rotator cuff, right shoulder, about a month ago.As you can guess, this has had a lousy effect on my shooting!Does anybody have any insight into how long/if ever this is supposed to take to heal up? Doc just said "You have to face your limitations",but damn,I just had a trigger job on my .300 and I hate to give it up,you know? Thank you, Carl
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 05:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just got the last of 4 rolls of film back from The Rendezvous, and I know Jim Mitchell, Ken "Chainsaw" Hunter, and a couple others got some really good shots as well.
Keep your eye open for updates on the Photo page and articles sections over the next few weeks. There will be some real good coverage.

Mr. Lemay,
Right on with the Rendezvous Sponsors, they really did provide some nice things.

Next year I'll have to put a big mouth JP muzzle brake on the .300WM instaed of the Vais, so that I can win a Tac-Ord Rifle. Whadda ya think guys?

Just Kidding!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 10:21:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

PeteR - muzzle brake...
Yea... and I'll bring a blow torch.... I had to shoot beside that @#$#$@$@#'ing T-bar looking obnoxious - side blastin' - face slappin' brake...
I'm sure that thing works really well for the shooter - but it's hell on your friends on either side :)

I think Rod oughta intro a requirement of a minimum 1" for barrel thickness and @ least 26" so that they'll stick out far enough :)

I was getting poked quite abit for my 'Elmer Fudd' barrel (Rod's name for it)... he said that no more that it heats up from shooting... hell all of my shots are cold-bore shots ....

Gotta run and get to work...

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 11:39:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just a note to thank all the competitors and sponsers for this years match. We could not have done it without you. A formal thank you will go out in the mail to sponsers today.

Please take a look at the emporium, we still have match t shirts and are raffeling of another Tac-Ord rifle for $100. per chance (only 50 tickets will be sold).

Thank you
Rod Ryan <>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 12:54:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Carl Hendricks...I broke both of my legs, got a skull fracture and broke three ribs in a head on collision on May 3rd. my right leg was crushed and needed to be pinned back together. ALL of the cartilage in both my knee's is destroyed. Still in a sh*tload of pain...BUT, your Doctor is wrong...A limitation is not something you live with, it is something you overcome. As long as you are not doing any additional damage, ignore or find a way around the pain (recoil pads,lots of Bravo brew, etc.) and shoot. Plain and simple. OR (this is gonna sound harsh) Shut up, ring the bell and quit. As a Marine friend of mine told me, Pain is temporary, pride is forever. Anything can be overcome except death.

Ask your doc if the recoil of the .300 is going to do any additional damage and keep you from healing.( he probably does not know for sure) if not I'd light it up and wizz a few down range dude! If you really want to do it, You will!

Also you might need to trade the three hundred for a Three O' eight. but you'll still be shooting.

Cory <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 13:08:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

All you guys who want to trade your Loopy M1s for M3s: You don't have to dump your M1s for chump change. Loopy will change out the turrets for a reasonable fee. Just go to their web-site.

Pablito: What would have happened on your hasty shot if you would have just cranked in 4 min of elevation?

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:47:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

The 4 rotator cuff muscles are the most delicate part of the human body. If you take a little time off from shooting and do some rehab exercises, you should get back to 90-100%, depending on the severity of the injury. I don't think that 223 would be too bad but I would definitely stay away from 308 or 300 win mag. A rotator cuff injury become chronic more than any other injury I have seen. If you take care of it from the beginning you can recover. If you push it and it becomes chronic, it will require surgery to repair. Is your Doc an orthopedic surgeon? If so, make sure he gives you the treatment and exercise regimen. If not, find out who the team doctor is for your local high school baseball team and go see him. If you have any questions regarding rehab, email me.

I fully agree with Cory. You have to be in the right mindset. I busted a leg, among other things, in a car crash two years ago. I was told that I would never be able to walk normally and it would take me at least 6 months before I could walk without assistance. I walked at 3 months and was back to my preinjury weights at the gym at 5 months. I also have no noticeable limp.

Loritab is good stuff isn't it?
The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:47:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looking for any info from law enforcement sniper teams who are using or have test fired Federal 165 grain Tactical Load .308 round. Also looking for any literature.
John Venuti <>
Richmond, Va, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:49:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo; You're right there are those with the machine gun that can handle them well and just a little training goes a long ways. The shooters I was shooting with were not professionals.

.308 velocity on 24 and 26 varies less than 50fps normally. Some fair and good shooting loads vary more than that.

Kevin; your post was excellent on the SM course. I for one enjoyed it.
That's what training does for us. Rod your a "sport" to provide this for those who want to learn. I wish...maybe some day.

tshiemer; your reflections on the full auto are exactly the same as mine. Fun they are..... but as a defensive weapon.. I wouldn't be caught dead with one. (no pun intended).

MP-5 I must have had unusual expeiences with the 5 since others swear they don't jam. My experience wasn't all that extensive. I too favor the closed bolt as opposed to open bolt operations. But all the open bolt versions seem to be simpler and less prone to problems in my limited experience. The UZI is a clumsy looking piece of plumbing but it is very effective when the chips are down. The MP-5 requires a little more expertese is use due to it's lighter weight. Fired from the shoulder (properly) it should work. I wish I had access to another perhaps better ammo would help or something. The .223 is a far better round but the recoil is rougher to manage. I'd still keep mine on semi auto if you don't mind.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:49:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shooter...I only take the Lortab at night to let me sleep...during the day I take one Aleve and live with the rest. The day I got home from the hospital I was out in the yard in my wheelchair shooting the .223. Doc was not happy so I swithched to the .22 conversion kit for a week and practiced breath control and trigger. then he let me go back to .223 and a week later I was up at the range, prone, with the PSS. It was hell geting back in the chair..looked like a three stooges comedy. But I had fun. Interesting note here..I used some Aquila subsonic .22's in the AR coversion kit and it was very very very quite and with out a suppressor on it. Made a great Cat I mean Rat, I said rat. It was as quite as a suppressed Ruger MK II pistol and did quite a number on the stray RATS running around the woods. But it did not cycle the bolt of course. I need to try some of the Aquila SSS .22 in my Ruger 10/22...hmmmm.
Cory <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 15:17:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory: I've never tried the Aguila ammo, but CCI CB caps sound literally like someone closing a book suddenly. And they keep enough energy to crack the heavy lens of a 8 bazillion candlepower floodlight at 80 yards. But only if it's aimed right into your window, and you've tried repeatedly to have it turned ;-)

Kevin: rather good show! So where are you going to concentrate on your shooting? Small groups at 100 yards? Windage at range? Guess I already know the answer, all of the above and everything else. Thanks for the dope, I appreciate having SOME idea of what I'm headed into next year! All the more you would bestow will be relished.

Mike: Speaking of what I'm heading into next year, it's not like I'm asking to be taught the material specific to the test, but I AM saying you've got a long row to hoe. HA!
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 17:54:36 (ZULU) (your host address:


Blacktail season begins Saturday. Just got back from the range, testing, and sighting in my two Winchester .308 featherweights. One is a 1954 original in like new shape. The other a SS Classic Featherweight w/controlled round feed.

Load was:165 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip (AOL: 2.800"), 43.5 gr. N140, Winch case, Federal 210 M primer.

Load shot 1/2" first three rounds from a cold bore...dead on from the pre-64 gun. The stainless gun did about 1". Not bad for a couple light weights. Oh, range was 100 yards.

Looks like I'm back to .308 for hunting season and will continue to play with the 6.5 X .284 on the side.

Now cracks about swinging both ways, either!

All the best,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:04:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gent's, checked with gun finder .com, on the Syealth .308's, they do NOT have any on
Two Shoes
In the land of no Stealth.
Terry <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:45:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gent's, no, not on med's, just sloppy keyboarding!!

lito', on the 70 Win's, are the HB Varmints still made w/ the SS barrels?.
If so, do you remember the model number of yournz?.

Looks like the Stealth's are going to be out of prod until Dec, as a fellow poster stated.

So, rots o ruck, to any and all looking...

Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:04:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

A little info if you wouldn't mind: it looks like shooting the 45 just got more affordable, but before I get any of these bullets, thought I would ask if anyone has any experience they would share with Berry's Bullets. They're about 60 miles south of me, and I can get the JHP's for a few bucks less per K than what I was paying for cast if they're worth buying. Thanks for the help!
Bravo <>
bearing the "breaking in new boots" pain, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:11:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
Which would be the best 308 deer round for around 100-500 yds? Will the FED 168gr match work, as it is what the rifle is sighted in with? THANKS for any help. Doug
Doug <>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 22:10:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Cory, I tried the SSS rounds in my 10/22. They were tumbling and keyholing at 50 yds, with no accuracy whatsoever. I imagine a 1 in 9 twist or so would do the trick. Not sure what a 10/22's factory twist is. I had great results with the subsonics also, but only to 50 yds.
Rotsa ruck with your shoulder,
Jim <>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 23:51:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Boy did I come to the right place!First, Cory you were right on the mark as far as doing a "package check" and drive on, and as far as ringing out,not bloody likely.Actually, the point of my post was, how long is the recovery time supposed to be?I have no intention of quitting shooting my "long rifle",but right now,( it's been one month since I screwed up )it ain't working. The doc and the phys. therapy folks don't have any answers,so I asked you guys.Been shooting a .270 with a little sting,but that magnum is enough that I know I'll develope bad habits.I'm going to use it on an antelope next week, but the 40 to 60 rounds a week I usually practice is where I got troubles. Anyway,just hope that didn't sound like whining, I'm just looking for a rough time table.Thanks again,Carl
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 05:49:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello everybody !

I going to relocate to the USA for the next 1-2 years before this year ends. I am going to open our company´s newest sales office there. To my dismay I found out today that as a non-immigrant legal alien I am not allowed to buy or own ANY KIND OF FIREARMS WHATSOEVER as long as I am a non-immigrant legal alien. Which I will be as I want to stay Finnish and I will come back to Finland after a few years to raise my children to become proper Finns.

Being a non-immigrant legal alien is according to the revised US Gun Control Act a reason enough to prohibit me from enjoying a normal hobby. That I do not have any criminal history, that I have owned legally licensed and controlled firearms in Finland for many years and that I can handle firearms safely JUST DO NOT COUNT AT ALL.

I am deeply disappointed.

I know this IS whining but at the moment it seems that I would have more freedoms in firearms matters in Italy, Germany or even UK which are internationally not very well known of lax firearms laws.


Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 12:13:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Keep in mind, that many of the "non-immigrant" alliens that come to this country, are here for less than savory reasons.

I'm no customs lawyer (and don't play one on TV)... but I've had friends come here from Austria, and they brought their own firearms with them... have you checked on that possibility?


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 12:54:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Now you understand why were fighting and bitching about our goverment and its gun control laws. 'litos right also, a lot of the ones coming into this country we wouldn't want to have guns but there should be someway for and honest person to continue with their hobby or to purchase a gun when they leave.

The State Patrol guys tested some of them and found the accuracy was not that good and point of impact was different. I take it this is the "Tactical", the one used for shooting through glass, not the "Tap" round your talking about right?? If you use them you will need to have a complete set of data and scope corrections for the change in impact that they have. I don't remember if they decided to keep them on hand or not.

You may want to try a good muzzle brake to see if that will help it will really cut down on the recoil. I had neck surgery about 5 years ago and now have 3 vertebra welded solid with a steel plate. When I shot my 300 I would get head aches so bad my eyes would cross. I sold it and quit shooting for about a year and a half and when i couldn't stand it anymore I said screw it and tried my 308. It wasn't as bad but I could still shoot so I started shooting again and now I have went to the 6.5s with less recoil and the ballistics of the 300WM so Iam happy again and doing what I love. I still can't stay in the prone for any period of time without getting a bad headache but when I have to, I do it and take drugs later. I shot in one match last year where they left me on the line looking through a scope at smiley faces for 22 minutes and I thought I was going to die!! I can still get a headache just thinking about it(HA). Cory is somewhat right, you have to decide how much pain your willing to put up with to do what you want to do. You don't want to be stupid and due permanant damage to yourself but it may be as simple as going to a smaller faster caliber. I plan on competing until my walker wont support all my gear!!!
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 13:38:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Doug; Do not use match bullets or even A-max Hornady on deer. That included Sierra Match kings. These bullets are not designed for that and you will find yourself trailing a wounded deer well into the night if you do it long enough. The Hornady 168 grain hunting bullets are fairly good and Other factory loads with good spire bullets are adequate. The Nosler Partician is one of the best and the Speer Gran Slam ranks right there with it. Yes they do cost more.
And yes, I've tried it on the A-max. That bullet will blow a hole in a coyote you can walk through but faced with the mass of a large deer
it will fail. I use 180 grain Hornady Spires on deer and the results are quite good. Nice expansion and shots from any direction are effective. No meat damage above ordinary. Sierra's are kinda fragile
and fail on occasion. The Match King is like a Full Metal Jacket in deer meat. It doesn't work.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 14:17:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey all,

Ok I am certain this question has come across here before but I can't seem to find it in the archive.

Regarding Harris BiPods what is the benefit of swivil VS non swivel and which is better the tactical LD shooter?

I know I know I know..............But I just don't seem to ba able to find it.

Thanks again

Play Hard
Mars <>
STupid question from Oneonta, NY, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 14:43:54 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have a swiveling Harris and it's great for uneven surfaces because it lets you rotate the rifle along the long axis to get proper sight alignment without having to dick with the adjustable bipod legs. From a bench or other flat surface, it's a liability because the tension knob never seems to hold properly and you wind up having to adjust the alignment of the rifle after every shot. In that sense, you're better off with a sandbag up front.

Just my $0.02...

Roger C. <>
Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 14:58:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


Harris Bipods: the swivel, notched leg bipod simply can NOT be beaten... that's what MY experience has taught me.

First of all - nonswivel ain't worth a darn on a hill side... and if you compete/train @ storm mountain - there aint a flat place anywhere around there.

2nd of all - the notched legs are a whole heck of alot better than than those darn thumb wheels that you have to reach forward and try to adjust and tighten while holding onto your rifle to get alittle more elevation.

On the notched... just hit that button and let the leg out to the desired notch adjustment... do the other side... settle back down, fire the shot...

Then again - if ya shot from a butt pack or something like that - ya don't have to hassle with a darn bipod...

Ken ;)

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:00:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bipods...swivel... if the bipod swivel is too loose and the gun moves after each shot... take a pair of pliers and tighten 'er up...It'll sit still then.... then again... my rifle weighs 20LBs.

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you use Sierra 2140's( 165 gr boattail Gamekings)you will get great results. These bullets were developed by Sierra to closely resemble the Matchkings. Acurracy for hunting ammo is excellent. State biologists called last night to inform us our whitetail gun season opens 10-1-00. LAMPS program is nice ehh. Gotta load.
Medulla762 <>
Splendoar, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:06:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
Swivel is the only way to go... even on a flat surface.
If your swivel bi-pod is floppy, thigten the big friction nut.
You can make it so tight, you can't hardly move it, and when properly adjusted, the gun won't flop over, even when you let go of the stock.

30 cal, 168 and 178 A-Maxs... just big varmint boolets. Not for deer, but good for tall varmints ;)

For deer, try a 87 Dodge Caravan, at 88 fps works every time ;((


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mars: I've got the swivel type leg notched Harris, and you can't talk me out of it. It's a S-BRM (short), although I might get the next taller one (med) as a standby. Seems there was this gong at 850, and I was shooting off my TRGT databook to get enough elevation, and.....

Now for the "evil" question. Seems I must've ate something baaad last night, had a nightmare about climbing a rapelling tower and the sling swivel gave way, leaving Betty Lou on the ground with extensive damage. Suggestions on bulletproof sling swivels would be helpful, even if they're not QD. Heck, I could hang myself, my rifle, my gear, and Mike fully outfitted from his sling, now I need swivels to match! I can tape or O-ring them for quiet, but I need brute strength.

No takers on the Berry's Bullets question?

Heikki: welcome to Amerika. Where you gonna be? The reason I ask is that some states are significantly more restrictive than others. It's an odd place we've allowed to be built, one gets out of jail rapidly for child molestation or rape, but does a LONG time for having too much personal usage dope. Don't get me started on weapons laws. If you're anywhere west, let me know, we'll have a little party.
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:31:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I get flamed everytime I say this but I have used the Fed GM for several years and never had to track anything more than twenty feet. The only time I have had to follow a deer is when I used 165gr Ballistic Tips. I do not recommend the Matchking for hunting but it will work. I prefer to have confidence where the bullet is going than having to rely on bullet construction, even though some hunting bullets are extremely accurate. Also, the deer I shoot are very small. A big deer in Texas will weigh 125 lbs dressed. I have a friend in Illinois who routinely shoots deer that weigh 200 lbs dressed. I can obviously get by with a little less power and bullet performance than he can. If your deer are smallish I would use a soft point bullet like a Sierra GameKing, if they are larger go with a Partition or Grand Slam.

I must quote Pablito when he said I am too poor to buy cheap equipment. I bought a nonswivel and then I had to go buy a swivel. I just bought the BR swivel version with leg notches and I love it. To tighten the nut you can use pliers or the Pod Loc that is in the In Review section. It does have a tendency to get loose.

What county do you live in? I have heard talk of an early season the past couple years but nothing firm. Out west (Runnels county) we have a severe overpopulation problem.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:57:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Are you going to get "Permanent Resident" status? If not, you might want to consider it. You can always leave if you want. I don't know all of the implications but it might be worth looking into.

My best guess is 6-8 weeks for recovery if there is a small tear. This assumes it has not been reinjured or delayed by excessive use or aggressive therapy. If it is just a pulled muscle, 4-6 weeks depending on severity. These are standard answers, it is hard to be more specific without being able to examine you. If after two months you do not see substantial improvement, the injury is worse than originally presented and you will probably need surgery.

The Shooter <>
God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:10:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


I shot my first Hi-power match last weekend. I shot F-class (scope, bipod, and rear bag). What a hoot. 20 shots at 600, and 2-20 shot strings at 1000 yards. If you can get into one it's a great way to get wind reading experience and get dope for your weapon.
I shot a 592X25 and had a blast!

Bill Byford <>
IL, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:14:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Did you ever get around to calculating BC and other ballistic's for the MOPAR fodder?
Medulla762 <>
Splendora, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:44:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
I tried the Ga. Arms 168gr SMK BTJHP last night. Only cycled 40 rounds, but I was quite impressed. Nice, tight groups, Lake City brass, good feeding, really nice stuff. It was getting to be dusk, so I didn't get any chrony on it, and that will be the end-all task. The stuff was $190 for 500 rds and it came in a GI .30cal ammo can. If you get 1000, it's $375! I 'll post again when I've cycled about 100 and can get to a longer range.

Semper Fi!!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:47:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


Looks like the swivel Notched leg is a favorite. I too agree with the theory of only buy it once so buy it right the first time.

Looks like I'll be gettin a notched leg swivel BiPod. Feel free to email me the best place. The local guy will take me for a ride on mark up and I'll grow old waiting for it. cause his MOM does the ordering and she has'nt been takin her medicines regularly. HA!!!!!!

Thanks brothers.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
If swivels are the way for hills then Oneonta is swivel country., NY, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:59:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, I've threatened to do this before.....

Heat loss test of painted vs/ unpainted barrels.

A few recent posts have renewed my interest in proving this one way or the other. I have speculated in the past that painted barrels must retain their heat more than unpainted barrels, at least to some small, um, degree. This is the kind of dumb little thing I can't stand not knowing for sure, especially when opinions vary widely and are mostly based upon unscientific observation. So here's what evil Professor Ned is going to do so that you, the SCDR reader, can point your nose in the air and speak with authority on the subject the next time you and your (less-well informed) observer are chit-chatting in the hide:

Have started with 4, equal-length pieces of 1" diameter cold rolled steel.

One will be fluted with a typical 6-flute pattern and sand blasted.

One will be left unfluted, and be sandblasted.

One will be left unfluted and be polished.

One will be sandblasted and given a proper coat of Brownell's baking laquer.

They will all be heated to the prescribed temp for curing the laquer. They will be removed and placed on end, on a piece of insulator board, and each one will have a piece of something-- maybe just a cardboard disk-- placed on top to minimize heat loss out the end. After all, the end of a real barrel is a pretty small area in proportion to the sides. With these shorter test pieces (2 5/8), it will constitute a much larger percentage of radiating area. Temp readings will be taken with an infrared pyrometer at 1- minute intervals. I don't really know too much about pyrometers, but they talk these up real big. Comments?

Why am I using the 2 5/8 length? This was arrived at very scientifically. I took the length of the piece I had and divided by four.

I may do this a few times using different ambients for the cooldown-- like outside, cold and breezy, inside and still, etc. Suggestions, comments, prediction welcome. My own predictions:
Bare, blasted, and fluted will cool fastest.
Plain, bare, blasted will be 2nd.
Painted vs/ polished-- not sure. The machinery's handbook makes it pretty clear that polished surfaces retain heat a LOT longer. I believe the paint will act as an insulator but then black radiates heat faster than other colors.

Should have this in by Sunday.


Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 17:09:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shooter/Mars: On the swivel/non swivel debate. If you don't want to keep tighting up the friction nut get the Pod-Loc as seen in the In Review section. Shooter if you've had trouble with it working loose contact Terry at KMW and I know he'll make it right. I have about a thousand rounds or more of .308, from the bench and field, with mine and the only time it has every come loose is when I want it too! Check it out guys!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 21:19:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Carl, on the rotator cuff ouchie, I have torn both. The right side was the worse and it took well over 6 weeks to move it comfortably, 8 weeks to pull 55# bow, and about 12 weeks before I could stand my 300 mag. I was a powerlifter at the time and it took almost 9 months before I could get up to near pre-injury max.

Agree with the rest:

Get a bone doc to take a look at it. I was within a 1/16 of the cut and patch on the right shoulder.

Get into a rehab program ASAP. Will help reduce the scar tissue.

DO NOT PUSH IT! Re-injury is a lot easier than the original injury.
(Did that to the left shoulder!)

Train hard, play hard, get hurt hard. Ain't it wonderful?

Bolt Out!
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 22:21:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Regarding rotator stuff. I am currently a civilian against my will because of a wound I received in Grenada on the invasion that injured my rotator cuff and because of really poor info and or attention to it on the part of my Uncle Sam's Doctors I never healed aqequately. So me being a good Ranger I sucked it up drove on and eventuall ended up being Med discharged into this hell of simpering nancy boys and lazy union employees who do things (as few as possible) for no reason other than themselves...........GRRRRRRRRRRR!

Sorry the rant got away from me.

Bottom line: Take care of it or it'll F$&@k your plans big time.

Thanks to all the guys who sent me very consisitant advise and info regarding the Bipod.

Play Hard!

Mars <>
Civilian In Oneonta , NY cause of a rotator injury!, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 22:42:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ned; I see nothing wrong with your test, It should be interesting....

Swivel Bipods are the only thing I would carry since I switched over from the others. The only time you need a bipod is when you dont' have it! IT's like a car jack. , jumper cables and and tow ropes.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 22:44:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello all,

The temp. test sounds like a great idea. 'Wish I had the tools to flute and generally play with hunks of steel... If I may, I would suggest that the pieces be shielded from breezes and seperated enough, say 8", so they don't radiate heat to each other. I'm betting on the fluted and painted. The fluting adds surface area good for both cooling from air circulation and radiation, the paint (assuming flat black?) is best for radiation. Anything in the white isn't going to radiate heat well.

Sounds like fun & can't wait for the results. Thanks for doing it.

Chris (waiting for my darn range to be rebuilt by a commitee of self serving club officers...)
Chris <>
Westford , mass, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 23:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ned: sounds like you've got a good experiment going. All you need is a barrel ;-) Seriously, if you want, I'll donate a US GI M1 Garand barrel to the experiment. It's the GI one off of my old Garand (which became my competition rifle), the first one I ever wore out (with lots of help from the military). Dunno why I kept it, not good for anything, but I did. Yours if you'll add a desert cammo/unfluted stage to your test (HA!). Really, I would say that the most important point, since barrels heat from the inside out, is that the barrel section or whatever is in the oven long enough to reach equilibrium throughout the metal.

Mars: "hell of simpering nancy boys": Thought you were up North. If I'd known you lived here, I'd have brought you a beer! Worst I ever had it was at Johnson, those wuss pantywaists in charge would run folks off for partaking in competitive shooting. You can guess the rest. Every one of 'em a banana working to make a republic.
Bravo <>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 00:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Everybody, I just want to clarify that I meant nothing harsh to Carl. I felt that sometimes ya gotta do a gut check to realise that it's not as bad as it seems and in fact, could be worse. Carl, I did not mean for you to just ignore a potentially serious injury. I do it all the time, to my own detriment, but it is not to be recommended to everyone. A Doc is not goig to tell you that is "okay" to shoot. Unless he is a shooter, he probably does not know if the recoil is going to hurt you. Give it time to heal and then get on the trigger. Pain is your bodies way of saying something is not right. So pay attention...Only you know if you can take the pain. Plus, the words I wrote to Carl are the ones that run through my head every morning when I can barely get out of bed, and shuffle out to my fire unit and go in service....Its all in the Attitude to me. You have the fire in the gut, or you do not.

Now I have a question about a product I saw in the very last issue of Tactical Shooter. It's a "Tuned Trajectory Compensator." Sold by Kenton Industries...I'm guessing it is some kind of custom "CAM". Has anyone on the roster had any experience with this cam, and do it fit the Leupold M-3LR? Seems like a cool idea. Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Cory <>
Panama, not inCentral America but in, Florida, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 00:56:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Brewmaster Bravo!

Glad I entertained ya!!! Regarding the beer I'll take it and see you one as well. If I'm not mistaken from past postings you are a Texan correct? If so I may get the chance to take you up on the offer since I have a real close partner (Team commo guy) from when I was keepin these generation X sissy boys and their la leche league addicted daddies safe from what (THE LAST GREAT PRESIDENT OF OUR TIME SO FAR) President Reagan called the "Evil Empire" who lives in the south east Texas area. He lives down on the border and says he is about an hour or two from Padre Island. He and his wife (whom I love almost as much as Venus) keep harpin on us to fly down and hang with them for a bit. They stayed with Venus and I when we got married and want to return the fun.

I keep sayin lets do it but schedules are yet to work out.......anyway if it happens I'm gonna let ya know and I'll stop by fer my brew.

Anyway, bein from up north and originally from that shit hole New York City originally hasn't screwed my grey matter to badly. Luckily I got away and let the Army fine tune my mush before they saw fit to send me packin. That and thanks to my Uncle and Grandfather who were both rather opininated Irish cops in Brooklyn and the Bronx who helped me see "the light" as it were. Yup! Thats the story and I'm stickin to it.
Double HA!!!!!

Play hard and shoot straight (a lot)!

Venus's reason for high blood pressure (aka: Mars)
Mars <>
Northern , NY, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 00:58:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

ON SWIVEL BIPODS. I also use the swivel bipod. I have the BR model. I just recently bought a Pod Loc from Terry Cross at KMW and it works great. It tightens up the bipod quick. I also have not had mind come loose. If you have a swivel bipod, you need to check out the POD LOC.
C.C., TX, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 01:55:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mars: along with a rather yankified sounding Patron, I'm a "displaced Texan". Now living in Utah (about 60 miles North of the Arizona border). For some reason, I tend to move every few years ;-) I'm planning on Storm FER SURE next year (along with another Mike/James lesson), if I drive instead of fly, I'll be bringing enough beer, ammo, and gear to make the bat boys worry (HA)!
Bravo <>
a banana mini-republic, lousy governor and all, Utah, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 02:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Rimrock is now making a varmint stock{hand laid glass}for the Ruger Markll short action, Hope this information will help.

Rabon <>
kenai, alaska, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 03:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

I could use some recomendations on spotting scopes. I don't have a lot to spend & use will be mostly field expedient use/ I don't benchrest much. Have been seeing a Winchester advertised lately but have no reference on what quality they are selling. Thanks.
Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 03:41:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pat,Shooter,Bolt,Mars, and Cory, thanks for the insight. Now I know it's 4 to 12 weeks wimp time.Cory,no offense taken, I'm prone to pushing myself and everybody around me ,too.By the way, it's "loper" among friends.On bipods,I usually just use my ruck, the only real downside is if I got to shoot and move quick. Thanks again,and really, no offense taken.Hell, come out to Idaho and have a beer!
Carl Hendricks <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 04:02:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello all and thank you for your support !

I was yesterday in the blues mood but I received new infro from a FFL holder who told me that there ARE EXCEPTIONS to the rule I mentioned yesterday. For example getting a local hunting license may waive the prohibition for a non-immigrant. There might be other possibilities too. So the world does not look that bleak anymore.

Anyway I will prepare myself with all kinds of translated documents from my home country where the governmental organizations know me better(Criminal Record(I have of course no notes in that), copies of firearms licences etc.) So if there is any possible way that makes it possible for me to prove that I can be trusted with firearms I will try go trough that process to prove it.

About changing the non-immigrant status I can say that it is very hard to get into the USA at all and getting a work permit which I need is even harder. Non-immigrant status is the only fast way to go and working the in high-tech IT business we do not have time to play around. Getting a permanent resident status takes in normal cases years and we can not wait that long. Besides my work is still more important than my hobbies even though my wife does not believe it at all times :-)

When the exact location of my stay is known I will let you know.

Anyway my weekend was saved when it became clear that there might be legal possibilities to continue the hobby I like.

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 06:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Carl re: Rotator Cuff,

I tore the Rotator Cuff on my "strong" side about 10 years ago and had to have it scoped and cleaned up, in addition to the usual therapy. It still bothers me frequently. Like you I prefered the 300 WM and didn't want to give it up. I tried the VIAS muzzle brake and it made a big difference. Find one and try it, the recoil is much more managable then a non "breaked" .308. It's about $175 installed w/ shipping and he does an excellent job. Bottom line take care of the injury and don't mess around with it. I recommend second opinions about the treatments and although the surgery is a lot better now, don't get cut unless you have no other options. I've seen several of the operations go bad, then your really screwed.

Good luck
Joe <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 07:29:16 (ZULU) (your host address:


Buy an aftermarket Turret!?????

Duuude - If you are shooting a military type load .308/168-175, .300WM 190, you don't need no stinking aftermarket cam. And you don't WANT no stinking aftermarket cam.

I used the .300WM turret cap (cam) and Federal GM300WM 190gr load at The Rendezvous and was flat tickeled to death with it. The only UKD shots I missed were due to bad wind calls on my part, or Mother Nature blanketing the Entire range with clouds.

Patron 'Lito,
Thanks I owe you a Double expresso latte and four No Doze.

Ofta work TGIF!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 10:37:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you're ever in Florida, let me know. You're more than welcome to borrow any of my firearms and head to the range with me! Atleast then you'll get some trigger time, though not on a Sako. By the way, Esa Tikkanen and Mika Hakkinen rule!

There's still an open invite to go shooting, formal or informal, for anyone interested. Cory and I are still working on details for a formal shoot. Thanks to all of you who've e-mailed and posted about the shoot.

Took the .460 1911A1 out 2 days ago. Used Ga. Arms "Power Plus" load. 185gr Nosler JHP @1550fps. Recoil was a bit stout, but not unmanageable. When you come south to hang with Cory and I, you'll have to cycle a few (hundred) rounds.

Semper Fi!!
Charles Hopkins <>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 11:32:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Your nightmare nearly happened to me (Twice) in Wyoming. My Uncle Mike sling swivels flat gave way on the barrel end of the rifle. We were moveing cross country and I had the rifle slung over my back on top of the pack when I felt it let go. I reached back and cought it by the barrel and noticed the sling swivel had "Spread" and released the gun. They just wouldn't hold the weight of the rifle. Mine is probably around 13 to 14lbs. To damn heavy for cross county work at 4700ft thats for sure!!!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:01:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bravo, yes, I'll make sure I get a good heat soak. Thanks for the M1 barrel offer but if I go any deeper with this I have some other chunks around.

Chris, there won't be a fluted and painted in this go around, but there will be a bare, blasted one and a blasted and painted one, for comparison. I will give them a good spread so that they are not catching heat from each other. As I say I'll do it a few times in different cool-down ambients. I'll have some digi pics available for anyone interested. Can somebody direct me to the instructions for putting a link to a pic in a post?
Dr. Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:30:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hows about dis for a sling swivel idea: A single 1.75" square piece of thick steel (1/4" or 3/8"), notched at one end to accept the stud, and machined through at the other to make a nice sturdy loop for the sling. To attach the swivel to the stud, there will be a hole transversing the swivel all the way through, the same diameter as the rod going through the stud. Then, on each end of that hole that the rod goes through, the hole will be slightly larger to accomodate a plug to be threaded into the hole. That way, once the plugs on either side are loc-tited in, you've got a permanent arrangement holding the attaching rod (solid steel dowel) in. Or, for those who would prefer, maybe a set screw arrangement to keep the caps from backing out like on die lock rings. I'm toying with the idea of oversizing slightly the notch, so it would accomodate dual rubber O-rings to keep things quiet. Obviously, I'm thinking hard on this, any suggestions would be welcome!

Pat: you can tell that your warnings have spurred me to action. Heck, I'll pay the cash to have the swivels machined, it's GOT to be cheaper than replacing the Mark 4 M3! Somehow I doubt the studs that McMillan installed are prone to ripping out of the stock ;-)
Bravo <>
the banana republic, where folks can't leave well enough alone, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 15:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

I went to the sling swivels that have a threaded screw that locks them in place, I hope this will be a better set up. I have seen the studs pull out of the back of the stocks too, so you need to check on them once in awhile. The front ones are usually pretty good esp. if you can see a big flat nut down in the barrel channel. It flat makes your heart stop when it happens!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 15:55:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Howdy All! A couple of things:

Searched around the site for information on the Elcan. Nothing found and I apologize if this horse was beaten recently. Would like to hear from users as to how they liked the sight, its durability, etc. E-mail me direct, if you'd like.

Second, August edition of the Tactical Shooter featured the IBA trigger guard. Nice looking but also looking for unput on this, particularly, is it worth it and what stock mods are necessary (for example, I have the standard PSS stock).

Thanks for the information!

Morris <>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 16:20:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Kent: how's the IOR coming along? Haven't heard too much lately.
Bravo <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 17:47:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sling Swivels; It's easy to see what's wrong with you ole boys' sling attachments. Yore guns are too damn heavy! Do like ole Ken and getcha one of them 2" square trailor receptacles like the cowboys use on them horse trailers. Mike can make you a sling outta one them Nylon tow ropes that'll handle it. TGIF I'd be plum crazy in another day.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 18:48:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

"a Double expresso latte"... What "a Double expresso latte"... I don't drink no STEEENKIN' "a Double expresso latte".

But I'll take two "Beaver Lites" (cold or "warm" ;), and a double bacon Cheese burger! Glad it worked for you... I'll crunch numbers for your .300 "Rummy" (double OUCH!!) this week.

Bravo, Dude-ski...
What Pat said... Uncle Mikes makes a locking sling thingie... has a screw that twists on, instead of the push button, and if that's not secure enough, you can use nail polish or blue loctite... they don' come off!


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 19:05:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo...make a prototype of the swivel, pass it around to us to test and evaluate, we'll give you input. You market the final product and use the proceeds to start funding the "ad campaign" to get everyone to move to Wyoming!!!!!!!!??????????? The prototype/test idea is for real. Hell' so could the ads be for real, whatever I'm trying to say.

Gee Pete how do you really feel about the cams? I like espresso....get all your caffine in one small dose.

Mike, How is the dragbag idea coming along? Need some bucks to make me one? Speaking of dragbags, my bag is draggin' right now, I'm ready to go home and have a cold beer!
Cory <>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 19:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Patron 'Lito and Pat: I've got those threaded twisty Unkie Mikes swivels on Betty Lou as we speak. I had a rather poor experience with a M2 Carbine in an aftermarket folding stock and the push tab ones. I pulled a Mike, and caught the sling as it was zipping up my shoulder (now