Sniper Country Duty Roster

August 16, 1999 - August 26, 1999

Another slightly off-subject post -

I'm wanting some input on spotting scopes. Has probably been discussed in detail before, so maybe I missed it, but I'm hoping some of you guys can help steer me in the right direction on making a purchase. Naturally, I'd like to have the best quality spotting scope I can get - but money WILL be a major factor in the selection. Just looking for something nice that I can look at my targets after shooting out to maybe 500 yards or so. Is there anything out there that can be had in the $200-$300 range that is really worth looking at (or through!)???

Gary <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Hey Sarge,

Aww, I couldn't do it. I was going to say something about telling her about bubonic plague and prairy dogs next time she shows up, but what the heck. Some people you can't tell anything. Maybe during her crusade to protect and defend the little rats she will find out firsthand.

Shoot Straight!

Mark <>
Jacksonville, FL, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:15:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 

A little while back someone was looking for a photo of McMillans' new A4 stock. I just found it - it will be the first photo on the link below....

Hope it helps...

Mark <>
Jax, FL, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Diamond Dallas Paige from WCW wrastling is on TNT using a
Choate/Plaster ULTIMATE SNIPER STOCKed rifle to hunt down the
presidents daughter....

Hmm.... in one of those under the breath lines, I could swear I
heard him say:

"this stock sure is pretty, but damn its heavy and all the guys
are gonna laugh at me..."*

buk out

*blathering attempt at humor not ment to offend anyone with mentioned

buk <>
LookinforaMastaSnipa-in, Louisiana, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Is anyone aware of a commercial equivalent of the M49 spotting scope?

john <>
over yonder, KY, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 01:32:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Didja notice his Tasco and he clean missed ol'Mariel on that first shot.But due to the high mass of that there stock his follow up was right quick.If he woulda known his cold bore shot he wouldn't have missed that first.....:0.
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 02:10:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Gary: Re spotting scopes.
I have a few cheap spotting scopes. I have a WW2 B&L draw tube spotting scope that I like. I paid 50 bucks for it. It is adequate to see bullet holes in a target at 300 yards as long as the target has a blue sky background. At Camp Perry the targets are about 7 feet in the air and there is nothing but sky behind the targets. If the targets were on the side of a hill seeing bullet holes would be much more difficult. Just about any cheap scope can be used to see bullet holes up to 200 yards in normal conditions. I have a bushnell sentry 20x that is also adequate for this purpose. I know of no scope that will spot bullet holes in a paper target at 500 yards. The biggest limiting factor of the use of spotting scopes is the atmosphere that you are trying to look thru to the target. More power than about 25x is of very little value because things like mirage scrub the image of the target of much detail. I have a Russian draw tube scope that has suprisingly good optics but will not focus on a target any closer than 75 yards. Cost was $35 bucks. My best scope is a Champions Choice model 22x C-60 I paid $200 for it. One of the best scopes that you can buy is a Kowa. I have looked thru several models of these and I admit that they are nice. The best feature of the Kowas are that they are available with long eye relief. If you wear glasses this is almost a must have feature. The cheapest Kowa with the long eye relief eyepiece is the TS-612 model. It will run you about 450 bucks with the 25x long eye relief eyepiece. A normal eye relief eyepiece is about 70 bucks cheaper.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 02:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 
.308 Glaser Safety Slugs-- Shot a handful of these (well, that's all I could afford) at the range the other day, thought some of youse might be interested in the results. To my surprise, I found that they shoot to the same POI at 100 yards as military ball. They are not tackdrivers but I got 4 into a 2 1/2" or so group. Noise and recoil, again to my surprise, were not noticeably different. I did take a prairie dog with one at 35 or so yards a couple months back, no superspectaular results, but that's not much of a target. I currently have the "contract" on wood chucks at the local landfill (to keep them from burrowing through the liner-- major prob if they do), I'll see if I can nail one or two with Glasers and report. Currently using an AR-15 in .17/.223 to keep the noise and ricochet potential to a min but a couple .308's shouldn't hurt.

I'm sure it's been covered here many times, but any good, just-short-of-max loads for .308 (VSSF) with Varget, with Sierra 155, 168, 175, and 190's would be appreciated. Could not get this rifle to group with Hornady 168 BTHP moly coateds and BLC(2), using CCI BR primers. Please Email 'em...... Thanks!
Ned <>
3R, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 03:05:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 

I have a "junk" S&W 686 .357 that i sure wouldn't want someone aiming at my head at 150 yrds. I'm sure they have good and bad like most manufacturers. Maybe I just got lucky with mine.
Ron <>
Ks, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 03:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Michael - Typical USMC brain fart if they think .300 win mag has a shorter max range than 7.62 NATO. Hell, tell them its a .308 and fire away.

Ed - I used to have a copy of the Benning POI and it had the NSN's for the ghillie kit in it but no can find. If you can get on a DSN line and contact SOTIC at Bragg I'm sure they have all of that info.
gooch <>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 04:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 


Next time take the video camera with you. You can show all your buds what an animal rights whacko looks like. Yeah, my kid thinks all these whackos are nuts too.

Keep up the good work,
BillB <>
ky, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 12:27:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Sarge peers from his hide, looking for Grannies....... LMAO!, LMAO!

Did you check for any "hunter harrassment" type laws or ordinances in your area. I think you should have brought her some to take home and bury "decently" in her pet cemetary. Heck even put them in her back pack for her.......

"WWF Master Snipers" - TeeVeeSNIPERSEALS carrying SKS's with Choate stocks & Bushnell scopes,- whats next - Gwynneth Paltrow on DELTA FORCE? Ben Stein "Stevie Segall'ing" the evil prairie dawg hunters?
Thats why my paw dun calls it "The Idiot BOX" I rekon.

Why do you need "just-short-of-max loads for .308 (VSSF) with Varget, with Sierra 155, 168, 175, and 190's would be appreciated". They don't shoot any better than lighter charges, and you risk problems in an unknown rifle.

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 12:57:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Pete R- OK, let's say just short of, short of max. I know what you're saying, that's why I'm not wanting to start out with somebody's max. Whatever comes in, I'll work up to it anyway. Thanks for the concern.
Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 14:49:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Try a start load of of 43.5 grains with NEW commercial cases and Federal match primers.
I have found (for me) that 44.0 grains works exceptionally well with weights up to 178 gr. and have tooted that horn enough for now.

Hey Sarge?, Sarge?

C'mon out, Grannies gone.............. LMAO!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 15:16:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 


Where did you find this info that S&W was supporting a ban on cheap handguns????? I would like to read that!!!!! As for S&W quality, I have owned well in excess of 100 S&W's, I used to collect them, and I still own quite a few of them and I have not had a bad one. I used to shoot silhouettes with them and I don't think that I would have to shove one down any bad guys throat to do away with him. Have you ever owned a S&W???? The one I shoot most now is a S&W 6906 and it has been shot more than a 1000 rounds without one failure and I have not used any ball ammo in it. I now use Win Black Talon for serious social occasions but I practice with hand loads with Sierra HP bullets. This S&W and all other auto S&W's I have seen will feed empty cases, something you cannot get any other auto that I know of to do!!!
I will get off of my soap box now but I still would like to know where you got your info about S&W supporting a ban on cheap handguns and is it reliable info.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 16:40:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Ned, Overall length can be your problem with bad groups. Many ways are available to check to see the distance to the throat/lands. If I am loading for a factory Remington I seat just a about 10 thousands off the lands. This has shown the biggest improvement in Remington Rifles. With this I took a PSS in 300 Win Mag and it went from 2moa groups to 1/2 to 3/4 moa. Cut all cases to length, debur the flash hole and load a slower powder such as Varget or 4064. I have not had good luck withh CCI Promers. I use Remington Standard or Federal BR. I hope this helps

SxW Weapons being junk. I didn't know this and apparently neither do any of the ones our department has used. I had a 645 that went over 20,000 rounds without a single malfunction. A 4506 that went 10,000 rounds clean. I changed to a HxK 45 a few years ago because it holds 13 rounds instead of 8. I miss the sear reset of the SxW(The best DA reset in the business) but not the long first trigger pull. Nothing wrong with SxW, they are just not the current rage in the Peterson Publishing World.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 17:03:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 


For cutting foam rubber, if you have access to one, try using a scroll-saw with possibly a #5 blade. I use the saw mainly for wood-working, but you would be amazed at what the sucker will cut with the right blade and proper speed.
Dan A. <>
Erie, PA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:22:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 

To quickbow. Media wasn't wrong about that crazy guy. He shot JCC with Uzi (chinese copy). Lucky for everebody it wasn't something better --- he was just "spraying". The postal guy was killed with Glock -- 5 rounds.
I have question. In Washington state is it permissible to carry?
HK <>
LA, ca, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Pete R, Mike M and Mike S, thanks for the loads and advice. Mike M, these were .010 off the lands like you said. They were unfired cases, maybe that was a contributor. I tried them .010 short of lands and mag-length, they did group just a tad better seated out. I have some .308 cases marked as 7mm BR that use small primers, got them from a benchrester, some of my better groups have been with these and plain-Jane WW small rifle primers and 760 powder. I am anxious to try the Varget though, the way you guys rave about it. Looks like it won't meter worth a damn though! I was at Camp Perry on 8/6 and had my hands on some Berger VLDs and LTBs (Length Tolerant Bullet) but put them down in a hurry when the guy rung them up at $27/100. I really need to find a magazine-able load that'll shoot in this dang thing. I have had sub MOA out to 200, with A-Max bullets seated long. What I really want to do is teach it to shoot mag-length rounds at say 85% of it's ultimate, long-seated potential. Thanks again......
Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:24:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 

I'm off for a week I actually have to do some work. I'll miss most of you. Thanks Sarge for addressing potetitial wasted space. I hope nobody has to play "I'm tougher than you" while I'm gone because I really enjoy catching up when I get back. Remember one very important thing If you are good at something you won't have to tell anyone. The people that you "outdo" will tell everyone. Now I'm off to try and find someone that I can "outdo" at something. Have a good week everyone. Maybe I'll see you at Smith Rock.

PS Hello Crapton!!!!***#$ 965743345
Frank <>
cows bay, orygun, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Recoil Pad Query:

Has anyone has installed a Pachmayr Pre-fit recoil pad on a Remington 700 PSS (H-S Precision stock)? If so, kindly advise your level of satisfaction with the installation procedure and reduction in felt recoil.

Thanks in advance..
Curious George <>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:59:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 

When will you be down here?? Where will you be staying?? I have a picnic to go to on Friday evening but other than that should be free to drink a few cold ones. The team that won the shoot in Wyoming was using a 6.5x284 very impressive the way it hits steel.

Mike M,
I won one of H&Ss new tactical stocks in Wyoming and your right about it. Its a very nice stock indeed and very comfortable. My kid already has his eye on it and is trying to deal me out of it(HA)

You will be happy to know that I actually milled two targets at the D&L shoot and I even hit one at 700+ using the Mil Dot Master!!! So it workd great and was my constant companion all the way through the shoot. It gave me a great feeling to know I didn't have to rely on the lazer for everthing.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 19:01:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 

JRice: I haven't heard that S&W is agreeing to either stop production, or ban, small / cheap pistols, but it would not surprise me. Can't speak for the Brit's, but there is more backdooring going on in the industry now than at a 40 cousin pig-pickin' in Carolina.

S&W [a division of Britain's Tomkins] has been in the news of late due to its former vice-president for marketing, Robert Hass, claiming that execs could have easily stemmed the underground distribution of guns in cities. Needless to say, subpoenas are common around his house.

Don't be surprised when it is finally aired that more than one US gunmaker has crawled into the sack with those who use the word ban in every sentence...again. Oh, by the way, Happy 50th Aniv...Bill.

Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 19:15:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Hk, You can get a cc permit in WA state. Dosen't matter if you are a resident of the state or not.
Mike <>
big state of, MT, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 22:29:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 
I have some friends that just got back from SMTC, and one sent me this note... which I consider one of the best recomendations for a course I've seen yet...

"Pablito... I dressed for Rain, got sunburnt. There were no course materials, no flashy presentations and no million dollar electronic gizmos.
The training is straightforward and practical. They are clear about what they want, and if you cannot perform as a professional, you are free to leave.
Show up late, they leave you behind. Forget to bring lunch, you don't eat. There is nothing hostile about the methods, in fact it is very cordial; they just don't have any patience for people who are not there to work."


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:10:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Well, now i understand why Bufford went to California. He didn't want to risk his hide in Washington state.
Anyway, have anybody evaluate the D-2 Stalker kit, which could be found in US Cavalry? Is it good or it is piece of $@%%%t.
HK <>
Los Angeles, ca, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:27:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 
I haven't been here for a while! I have a Savage 10FP in .308 now Yeah, yeah, yeah, i know its a cheap rifle, but it still shoots sub 1/2 moa. However, it holds four in the mag and one in the chamber, If i put four in the mag, then the top cartridge won't chamber after i fire the one in the chamber, I have to kinda jiggle it around a bit and poke it into the chamber, which sorta stinks. . .
Another thing about G-suits is what is the best way to attach the burlap strips to the netting?? Trying to decide between tying the burlap in a knot or using string to tie it on. . .


Dan Gleeson <>
an insignificant dot not even on the map, DE, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:43:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 

I know its political, but it's pertinate to everybody.

Janet Reno on 12 AUG 99 at a press conference.

Q Ms. Reno, what's your feeling about the Second Amendment? Do you subscribe to the collective rights theory or the individual rights theory of the Second Amendment? Is it a well-regulated militia that should have guns or every individual should have guns?

ATTY GEN. RENO: As I have said, I don't think it ensures to every individual the right to bear arms.

For Info
Roger-90th OMMS <>
Micanopy Beach, Fl, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 00:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Janet; Let's see now. We have a society with murder in the streets on the highways and burgulars attacking our homes. Gangs and thugs are everywhere and women are being raped and attacked in the Walmart parking lot. Senior Citizens are being robbed and cheated. There are crazed killers in the schools, daycare centers. finanacial institutions and brokerages not to mention the workplace post office fast food joints, and on the freeway. There's a stupid computer bug is about to turn out the lights while the Skin head Nazi's are threatening chemical and biological warfare and you think our salvation is to turn in our guns to the UN troops your planning to send here on a peace keeping mission? Tell your other brother Slick and Shummer to come back when I'm in a better mood!
B.Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 02:58:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 
CHeck this out guys one of our former master snipers on this site is confusing other web sites now. Who can guess who it is?

"Your query is one that i thought about a while back. When i was developing all of the corrections for .50 caliber sniper rifles; including corrections for barometric pressure, air temperature, ammo temp, spin drift, slant angle and combinations of the above, I wondered that very question.

Consulting Artillery Circular "M" I pulled up the old formula that taught the naval gunnery officers of the time to compensate for the earths rotation. They had to deal with high angle fire and flight time in minutes and seconds vs. milliseconds and full seconds up to 4-6 seconds.

Using their formula and the Mark 211, MOD-0 round at a velocity of 2840 fps. I plotted a shot firing at the equator due north for a range of 1500 meters. The major factor is the flight time vs. the decay time of the earth's rotation and the difference between the two.

The short version is you're right..... althought that would certainly start a ration of #$*& at another site. At 1500 meters, the "decay" is about 9.76 inches. That's about a .50 MOA correction to the East.

It's a very difficult and technical subject, so much so that most ignore it and even more scoff at it."


gooch <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 03:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 

CHeck out this USMC y2k web site. To be paranoid or not to be paranoid.
gooch <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 03:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Whoa... there's a couple of problems with that question and response regarding Ms. Reno.

First, the question was invalid, because it's utilizing "militia" as a substitute for the national guard, not as "every able-bodied and able-bodied man and woman between the ages of eighteen to what ever age is they remain competent and able, not convicted of a felony" (how 'bout that for a modern "politically correct" version, being unbiased towards gender and legal age!)

2nd: Overlooking that, there's still those qualifications to the statement... minors, felons, and the mentally incompetent. She's right, she doesn't support the right for "every individual" to bear arms... remember, the b&%ch is a lawyer (oh sh#$, I didn't say that, did I? ;-) The statement "could" have been taken out of context, and she only meant that as I have given her the benefit of the doubt about (for the sake of playing devil's advocate here!)

IMHO, I realize that she meant it as it sounded, but unfortunately in this day and age it IS the letter of the statement that is the law, and she 'could' justify the statement as it stood.

What was it I heard the other day... "Who wins the debate? The person who frames it", and the media are the ones framing the whole che-bang.


FYI, I've only been lurking recently, haven't had much time to participate, as I'm in the middle of an unexpected relocation. We, the missus and I, have been packing, job-hunting, and cleaning in preparation to move into the family's farm back in upper East Tennessee; we've had enough of this town, and I can't see how anyone could stand a larger one. So, we're going to be in the country, and gladly. I'll be able to shoot off the front and back porches even, well, if the wife'll let me, that is.

Oh, and Al O... I bet I could find a pair of sheep shears in the shed if you need 'em! LOL

L8R, all.......

Leslie <>
TN, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 04:03:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Glad I got some people Perked up problem is on the wrong part of my topic no matter, On S&W being for "saturday Night special bans" I saw the Someone Representing S&W. Do not remember who for sure Im lucky I can remmeber my own name little lone somebody elses, anyhow they were on a news program talking about cheap gun bans. I believe it was CNN was about 5 months ago, as far as I know S&W does not try to hide that fact whatsoever so check out there site Im sure theyll have something about it.
Now I was questioned as to the quality of S&W. I first found out how junk they are when I bought my sister one for graduation Present. after about 100 rnds the cylender locked up. Took it to gun smith found out this is common problem with S&W as they need to be shimmed. also if they get Dirty they will "freeze up" as well. Well known fact hear at The State Prison where they are the Issued Fire arm and has constant problem with them locking up. However in all honesty and fairness I do not know if this problem is do to Certain models or what have ya, but what I do know is this is the first Revolver I have ever heard of jamming up. As far as hitting someone head with a pistola at 150 yrds, I have to agree totally with MR. Cooper on this one he says " the only reason for having a pistol is to get to a Rifle".
Partison <>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 04:04:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 
None, I find the site very informative...I am a former Marine myself! Echo 2/5 31st MEU(SOC) 0331! OOH RAH to all the Devils out there.
Roger Gullickson <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 05:42:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 
The lunch-box legend strikes. What is it about the arcane art of sniping that attracts you? Cant do it up close?

I have never met you, but quite a few on this site sing your praises.
Unfortunately it appears that you have neither the maturity or mental dexterity to cope with technical argument. If I am wrong, write a rebuttal to your .50 cal shooting nemisis on this site. I can't meet you and look into your eyes but I can read, and analyse your counter-argument.

At least display some honour and integrity instead of the child-like scoffing at the unconventional wisdom researched by other less self-seeking individuals.

Go put your cam cream back on and watch another John Wayne movie.

darryl <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 06:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 

I have been wanting to ask some of the more experienced shooters about a problem I've been having...
I have had a rifle built using a 700 SA (lapped, balanced and blueprinted) fitted with a 26 in. Krieger fluted 1.25" taper to .975" barrel cut with a 13 degree crown. It has been bedded into a McMillian A-3 with pillars and Devcon alum. On top is a Leupold 4.5x14x40 tact. mil-dot. I wears a short Harris bi-pod ( I am a police sniper and shoot mostly from prone) and a mil-spec leather sling. It weighs over 13 lbs. Now, my question goes like this...
When this rifle is shot from a lahti vice, it shoots groups of .152" to .260". Not those are not mis-prints. I ordered the Jewel trigger at 1 lb. 8 oz. Now, when I ( and several other old shooters) get behind this rifle, we experience three or four shots usually in the .40-.60" range then 1 or two shots from .5"-1.5" away from the body of the group. If this makes any sense, I am unable to "call" my shots with this rifle. My PSS and 40-X do not do this to me. I have to take one of them along with the new rifle to regain confidence while I am testing it. The cold bore shot is also moving 1-1.5" from one day to the next. At this time, I have no confidence in the rifle other than watching the gunsmith fire tiny groups with it from a vice. If anyone can shed some light on this, I would be much more than grateful.
Lowcrawler <>
Meridian, MS, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 06:48:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Hi! Just need some help with target shooting.. currently doing Air Rifle, Smallbore 20m prone and Fullbore. Anyway, I find with small bore some weeks I can shoot 98 - 99, but on a bad week I barely get on the happy side of 90. It seems that when I have a bad week, my shot does a donut around the 10 dot... does anyone have any advice for me?

Alan Tse <>
Melbourne, VIC, Australia - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 08:18:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Hey Gooch...
I just got my AN/GVS-5 Laser Rangefinder back from the Russian... and it's got "Gooch Slobber" all over it!! You owe me a beer for having to clean the lenses...

Gooch Can't watch John Wayne movies... they ain't got no Tee-Vees down in West "By Gawd" Virginy... hell man, they ain't hardly got no 'lectricity after sundown... so he'll have to just go on and do what others watch on their "Tee-Vees"... it's a tough life but someone has to do it.

Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 09:18:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Lowcrawler; It might be worth pursueing another bullet weight to see if the same thing occurs. The suggestion might be the twist is not quite right. This is provided that nothing is fooling with you as far as being loose and I'm assuming you have tightened everything 50 times. I might be tempted to try a different torque on the bedding screws just to see what happens not as a cure but just as a troubleshooting procedure. The scope is a possibility. I would check it with a bore sighter and see if all the clicks are happening as they should. In that particular scope if there is anything but perfection in each click movement around the range you are shooting pull the scope and try another one. Parallex could be to blame be sure you don't have any at all! You know not having all the facts and for other readers I have to even tell you what you probably have already tried. The Bipod, needs to eliminated also and sand bags used to check for what happens there. I am assuming there is no compensator or brake involved. The crown is a possibility check it with a big magnifier. (last). Sandbag the thing, take the bipod off completely and hook just one finger over the top just ahead of the scope when you shoot don't squeeze just kind of hold it in the finger circle and note what happens to the drifting groups. HOw full is your powder case? If your shooting a factory load get a good handload and try it. If it's a low charge of Varget you could be affecting it by handling it. (this is very unlikely). IF you suspect powder ignition at all go to magnum primers to try. This should take you till Christmas and sounds like basic stuff but somewhere here you might discover the real problem.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 11:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 
I have never met you nor the gentleman referred to in the post but I have met Gooch. He's been there and done that he doesn't need to watch John Wayne. What he't trying to say is that there is a lot of bull shit being slung around that doesn't mean squat in the real world of shooting. Figure it out for yourself, can you shoot good enough where a half min. of and angle would make any difference at 1500 yards or even a 1000 yards?? There are to many other things that come into play that have a greater effect on accuracy than spin drif or the earths rotation, thats all he's trying to say. He's not the only one either, if you go back through the post you will see that Rick and alot of others agree with Gooch. He has the balls to stand up and tell it like it is so don't go slaming him for it.
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 11:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 
I recently got a H-S Precision in 338 Lapua and am having a great time with it. It's not the standard HTR, the stock is fixed LOP and it has a muzzle break. 28 inch 1 in 10 barrel with H-S's trigger, three round detachable magazine. Factory supplied target shows .262 inch 100 yard group. So far only thing I've shot through it is some factory Lapua 'Blue Box' 250 Lock Base and some 300 Sierra MKs hand loads. Hand loads use N560 and Fed 215M primers. I'm looking for some data to use Reloader 25, I'd appreciate a hand-out if anyone has data.

It wasn't me posting about Earth rotation, East West elevation corrections.

Darryl (Ovine version)
Have any luck with your steel 700 SA floor plate?

Dave "Doc" King
Dave King <>
Damascus, MD, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 12:08:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 


We showed up for the Super Sniper Match, and we all got our kits on the line.
Everybody got set up, and when the 10" targets would pop up at UKD, we had to take 10 plates in the given time.

A lotta' guys had nice rifles and good scopes, and most guys had Mil-dot masters, others had pocket calc's.
Most guys had spotting scopes focused on the grass half way down the range...
... but I was going to clean this one... I had science on my side.

When the plates popped up, I got out my surveyors theodolite, and got the angular subtension of the plates as .2802777778 minutes of angle.
I enter that into my lap top computer running the latest version of "Excel"... 1007 yards. HA, I'm already ahead of those dummies... they'll probably mil-dot the plates at 1000 yds.

OK... now, spin drift at 1007 yds... well take the spin drift at 1000 (2.1") x 1.007=2.1147", but the spin drift data was gotten with 6 grove 50/50% rifling, and I'm using 4 grove 20/80% rifling, so that's 2.1147" times .47 K factor = .993909" of spin drift a 1007 yds... it's going well.

Wow, I know I'm gonna win this one, those guys are already shooting with no real data! They ain't gonna hit poop!

Next, I'm shooting at a latitude of 47 degrees north of the equator, so I take the equatorial "Earth Drift" and divide by the sine of 47 degrees the get the earth drift (EqD)x(sine 47)... but I'm shooting at an angle to the longitude of 78 degrees south, so the earth drift is a negative number... so I have (EqD)x(sine 47)x((sine/-1)x78), and add that to the positive spindrift... now the correction is .36 inches to the left at 1007 yds.
Ok, were getting' close... the hell with scoping grass at 500 yds... I got my portable Doppler shift wind meter... lemme see, we have a varying 4.373 mph to 10.785 mph, fishtailing from 36.974 degrees, to 48.937 degrees...
Ok, we're getting ready... enter the spin drift... the equatorial drift (with corrections)... the angle of the sun... the temperature of the receiver, scope bases and and rings, times the expansion coeffecent rate of the steel... and the Doppler data into the "Master Excel Spread Sheet"!... Load a round and wait a moment for the computations...

(There's a tapping on my shoulder)... "Wadda ya want?... I'm gettin' ready to shoot!"

"Hey buddy, the course is over, everybody's left, we gotta clear the range!"

Shit... I'll do better next year, I'll get a faster lap top!

Hail to science! The hell with practical experence!


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:33:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Hi Folkes, I was just able to turn on the computer today, after a very inspiring weekend at SMTC . (Still cleaning dust of my spotting Scope and BL scope from the Dust.) When I say inspiring, I really do mean that. When I first showed up for the LLR1 course last weekend, many of us were introduced to a completely new way of shooting andn our confidence kept increasing by personalized instruction and hands on doing the shoot. But this week, standing back at the 1000 yard mark and looking at the targets which we were about engage (no time for sheep engagements - couldnt find the right ring size), many of us thought to themselves, how the f**k am I going to hit that target. But once again professional instruction came through and by listening and doing, you also can do it. Keeping accurate log books and coordinating your thought processes with your spotter, you all of the sudden are ready to make the shot.

Since our class was considerably smaller this time, there was a much more personalized instruction by Rod and Kent, but always a professional and safe atmosphere.

As you can probably tell I can not say enough good about both courses. These two course have transformed me froma a wannabe long range shooter to one that still needs a lot of practice as we all do. Thanks again, Rod, Kent and Stu (my partner)for helping me to qualify first time around.

KS Tactical: About the SPringfield 3rd Gen Scope. Usually there is a reason why the scope is being sold for "a deal". It is an above average scope, but most long range accurate shooting is done with mil-dots and spend the extra bucks and get a Leopold or a B/L Tactical.

Mr LeMay: Good Point about the nuts running around at the Keyser Wal-Mart. Didnt I see you in there, last time I was there??

peteR: Great time this weekend, Great to finally meet you and your lovely wife. How did you ever get so lucky to have someone so lovely get to marry you??

Depity Dave and your Brothers: Nice having dinner with and telling me your experiences. So now we know that the Candlewyck is not the only place in town to eat., Francesco - great Italian food. But dont mention Kent Gooch name in there, we almost got thrown out of there on our ears, Some kind of Italian swearing and something about chasing the owner's young daughter around. Counldn quite make everything out between the swearing and ducking the meat cleavers being thrown at us.

I've rambled on enough.

But one last thank you to Al (Uncle Nunzio's nephew) Biacci and 2you know what for. I like to think I done you proud.

As far as the sheep shears go, didnt need them, but up att the 1000 hill, there were some mighty good looking hiefers in the field next to us and Im sorry I forgot my ladder.

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:48:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Oh, almost forgot! Ned you mentioned your HS Precision 338 Lapua. Hope you have a wheelbarrow full of money just to buy the brass. Considered also building one, but the brass cost is about $2.00 a piece.

Remember at Storm Mountain, dialogue is the most important aspect of your shooting with your partner. And "The Ding is the Thing."

al o. (again)

Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls. net>
CHronologically Challenged and back in the Great State of , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:54:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 

I Don’t know who wrote this.

Dear Mr. President:

As both a taxpayer and veteran, I strongly protest the exorbitant fiscal and Military resources you proudly took credit for committing to the national spectacle surrounding the unfortunate death of John F. Kennedy, Jr., his wife and his sister-in-law.

First, although the deaths of Mr. Kennedy and his family members are
certainly a personal tragedy for friends and family, they are not a national tragedy anymore than the loss of any other human life. Can you (or the SECDEF) name the two soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division killed in Kosovo last weekend, or the Army Lieutenant who died in a plane crash in the mountains of Columbia on the same day? Could not you have mentioned their names and service to the country in your fawning TV bites about the Kennedy’s? Your reinforcement of the endless press hysteria and hype is a disgrace to your office and our Nation.

I can easily think of several unfeigned national tragedies demanding your attention, such as your repeated imprudent commitment of our armed forces to missions that have nothing to do with vital US interests. You’re ill-advised gutting of our national defense to the point of unreadiness; and certainly your own personal conduct. But the death of John F. meet the mark.

As a taxpayer, I see no reason for Kennedy’s loss in a general aviation accident to be treated any differently than any similar accident involving the loss of any other private citizen. Your unnecessary commitment of Coast Guard and Naval resources to a grandstanding recovery mission at a level far beyond what would have applied in any other situation smacks of politics and elitism (and your insecurity) at its worst.

Present DOD policy alleges that our country can’t even afford to provide full (if any) military burial honors for real heroes (like WWII veterans) unless they happen to be considerate enough to die at or near a military installation that happens to have resources available at the time. Under those conditions, it is an affront of the worst order for you to honor a civilian (who never served his country in uniform) with a burial at sea supported by a US Naval warship. How many WWII vets could we have properly honored for the cost of the Kennedy burial at sea? Perhaps you or the Kennedy family intend to reimburse the US Treasury for the cost of this gala.

You might also apologize to millions of veterans and armed service members who you insulted by this special treatment at their expense. Your excuse that ”this special treatment honors what the Kennedy family has meant to the Country” is political claptrap. Your actions prolong the imaginative status of the “royal” Kennedy family. Those of us who’ve gone in harm’s way for this Nation remember that our first war, the Revolution, and the drafting of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were substantially about discarding forever that sort of elitist privilege in this Republic. We didn’t
want it in 1776 and we certainly don’t need it now. Examples for us all-not an American “Princess Diana.”

James Hicks <>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 15:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 

After reading constantly about the quality of instruction at SMTC, my partner and I have signed up for the basic rifle course in late Sept. Would some of you guys that have been through the course please send me any pointers you might think are relavant to getting the most out of the course. My big worry is that my limited budget will leave me short and I'll miss out on the full learning opportunity. Right now, our kit includes one used rem 700 bdl .308 with a single piece base, mark IV mounts and a Leupold 3.5 x 10 long range (last b-day present) partner will be shooting a M1A w/ NM trigger and barrel, with a Landtec mount and bases (copy of the Brookfield mount), the glass on this gun is a tasco 10x tactical....our spotting scope may have to be an old 8.5 x 20 leupold vari-x on a camera mount. I'd like to do reloads but I'm wondering if I might be doing myself a dis-service. I've done loads for pistol and .223 with accuracy improvement on the .223, but I don't have a starting load for the .308 and would guess the two guns are not gonna be even close w/regards to optimal loadings. Can anyone suggest a starting point w/ regard to primers and powder...I have 1000 rds of trimmed and prepped LC brass and the sierra 168 gr bullet seems like a no brainer as a starting point...I do know how to measure OAL in the 700, but I'm a bit shaky on how to mix OAL with max length that will work in the clip w/ the M1A...any suggestions on kit, technique or a starting load for either gun would be much appreciated,and if your around Storm during that time, most certainly would be remunerated in cold beer. Also, will 8lb of powder be enough for the required 1000 rds plus the 100 or so I'll need to shoot to work up a loading?
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:02:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 
I'm looking to buy a high end Spotting Scope. I'm looking at the Swarovksi 20x60 straight view scopes. Great reviews, but I don't have a sense of how durable they are or if I should consider something else. I in the mindset that when it comes to optics, buy the highest quality and you'll never be disappointed.
BMiller <>
Newton, ma, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 
I just read your calculus thing. You are exactly right, and that is why I still say Tactical folks should shoot High Power Matches, especially Long Range. There is absolutely no substitute for trigger time and Match Shooters are getting it. 300 or more rounds a month in all kinds of conditions. There comes a point where this constant shooting experience just lets the shooter "know" the conditions for the shot.

My two cents is develop a good 1/2 minute load, stop there and shoot the ever lovin' hell out of it - all the time - with the same one gun.
James Hicks <>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:05:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Hi, I have another question.
For night vision sight AN/PVS-2 I have the Organizational maintenance manual. Is operator manual exist for this sight, and where can I get it.
second, is it possible to get bipod mount M2 for M1A rifle?
HK <>
Los Angeles, ca, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:05:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Loved the post!! Only you could say it so eloquently though. In a nut shell, a lot of people spend to much time trying to be to damn technical, worring about things that don't really matter instead of just shooting!! Your data will tell you if you need to correct for anything from barrel "Walk" to spin drift. Just go shoot and record the results and you will become a good long range shooter, it just takes practice, practice, practice.
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:27:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Darryl down under,

I don't think Mista Gooch really needs my help, but I happen to do Federal contract work with some folks who are "in the know", not Master Snipers, Wannabees, etc. etc., they are "the real deal"
During a nocturnal discussion regarding perimeter security, ECP's, duty gear, tactical methods & training w/ rifles, shotguns and handguns from places like: Glynco, GA./Greenbelt, Md./Private companies, and I happened to mention the name Kent Gooch,
hushed silence,
and "You mean from Quantico?"
next comment"The man knows his stuff"
These guys often cover my "six" at work and they are dead serious folks. NUFF SAID!

and Partisan,

I carry a S&W revolver at work, it works flawlessly EVERY TIME as does my personal training piece (K frame M-65-5)which is current production and built as good as the ones from the 1930's.
Didn't that EX-VP moron lose his job because of his mouth? He is the manufacturing version of Reno, whom I believe had her mental capacity/competency to hold office questioned more than once
due to a degenerative condition, RIGHT?
The very woman who openly stated she would NOT enforce current prosecutions for federal firearms violations because they would "tie up the court systems for decades". It ain't about crime control, its about disarmament.

It was very nice meeting you and Stu in person. I think the Carlos match will even be more fun now that I know about Franceso's. We will have to take "The Rosterfarians" there, (you know Bolt,'Lito, Undude, and the rest of the Carlos match rapscallions) instead of Lucy's Sheep Dip Cafe.

If they don't start nailing boards over the doors when we pull up.


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:36:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 


I will try to address some of the most common problems, part or all of which you may have tried. First check the length of the front mount screw. To do this take the scope off and loosen the three other screws on a one piece base or the rear screw on a two piece base and check for any movement. If there is any movement, shorten the front screw, this is the most common problem I see. Next check for barrel clearence, it should not touch except just in front of the action. Next change the tension on the action screws and see if this changes your POI, if it does you have a bedding problem and you should take this up with your smith. Use the ammo your smith is using for your testing as it sounds like it is of good quality (but don't expect those little .100" to .300" groups all the time that he got with the machine rest). When you take it to the range to test, use some sand bags or a front and rear rest but remove the sling studs front and rear or at least make sure they do not touch anything during recoil as this will make a big change in POI. Last but not least change the scope as it could be bad, I know it is a Leupold but they make some not-so-good scopes also and if it is the scope send it back and tell them you are with LE and they will fix it a little sooner. There could be other problems but I just listed some of the most common and easiest to fix.
I hope this helps.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 17:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 


What gives? Anyone who finds himself in a position where it is necessary to engage targets at one mile with a rifle has got more problems than whether to account for spin drift. Snipers don't carry the battle. They are just another asset (like the rest of us) a commander may decide to use or not use. All that high speed BS is just that. How often do military snipers kill at that distance? The fact is, it just doesn't come up all that much. You can kill more stuff with a radio, binos, map and compass than a company of snipers can. When Gooch says it doesn't matter, he's right. At average sniping distances one is likely to encounter you've got a lot more to deal with than techno-geek crap.

Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 22:56:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 

First on foam cutting - Thanks to everyone who posted and emailed me on this. Your comments were all very helpful. I eventually ended up using a large long carpet style razor knife. The curves were still a bear, but it worked really well overall. One person suggested freezing the foam. If I'd had room in the deep freeze that might have worked too. I'll experiment on some of the smaller left overs and let you know how it went. In any case I now have a really nicely form fitted case.

Tjis weekend I found myself at the range breaking in that Model 70 and it has come a long way. Its eating Gold Match 168 now very nicely indeed. I am very pleased with how well this rifle is doing. Still have to do some trigger work on it etc but I couldnt be happier.

On the Smith and Wesson Handgun topic - I went through my training using a S&W 586. It was a totally out of the box gun. No trigger job, no special grips, no new sights, no laser, and except for not liking the aluminum cassed cci stuff that we had back then (The extractor would not function) it was and remains my favorite handgun. I took top gun wiht it every class so somethign had to be right. I will admit when it gets VERY dirty (hundreds of rounds) it will start to have problems turning the cyl especially if it was oiled heavily and not fully wiped down beforehand. However that beautiful piece of machenery (with a little help) shot far better than any of the pythons on the line and was more reliable than anything else I have used except for an old loose 1911 that I have never been able to make malfunction. (The 1911 is also only about as acurate as throwing abowling ball at 25 yards :-)

I'll be very dissapointed if this rumor about S&W getting in bed with the gun grabbers is true.
JT - Webmaster for Tactical Intervention Specialists <>
Rifle Sling City, Californi, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Rostafarians? I represent that remark, I think! Except the fairy part.

And, ever cents that thar Al.O. feller started a talking bout them little sheepies, I been usin a little bit of that sheepie dip behind ma ears instead of terlit wawter. UMMMMMMM, likes to have me some them rare lamb tender loins.

Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:48:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 


I highly protest, and represent, your disparagin' remarks towards Lucy's "Sheep Dip Cafe'".
Ewe know that those "Sheepish" waitresses are the reason half of us are going to Carlos... hell, we ain't even bringing rifles or ammo.

Got a note from Remington today... they are shippin my 40-XB based M-24 that I'm having built for Carlos on... you got it... Oct 4th. So I'll be bringing a couple of Winchesters, and maybe an M-21.

Spoke to one of the head engineers on the M3-LR, and first, he's a she, and she's damn good, and knows her stuff. The Mil-dot MK4's from Leupold have round dots on glass, but the factory Mil-dot M3-LR's have football dots... the factory scopes use the Premier reticles... so there are no M3-LR's with round dots. They just overhauled my M3-LR... quoted 2 weeks, shipped it on Monday, it was back in my hands on Wednesday!!! Not bad!

If you shoot Fed Match...
Spoke to the Powder engineer today about Fed GM Match, and he stated that for Fed GM1, GM2 and GM3, each has "THREE QUALIFIED PROPELLANTS" (his words), and though their lots may all have the same muzzle velocity (24" test bbls) they may vary in longer or shorter bbls... also, even if the vel is the same in your rifle, try to buy large lots... different lots may have different POI's because of the different burning characteristics.

Fed GM-2, M118, and M118-LR, and most commercial loads with the 175MK, will track the "Meters" cam on the M3-LR... and the M118 cam on the MK4-M3

Fed GM-1, and "M118-Special Ball" and most commercial loads with the 168MK will track with the "Yards" cam on the M3-LR, and the "168 cam on the MK4-M3.

There is no "meters" cam for the 168, and no "yards" cam for the 175.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:52:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 


My point stands. I accept that technical aspects of long range marksmanship have practical limitations. Pablitos range example said it all. I dont think that any reasonable person would dispute that point.

However, does time spent cleaning and polishing the primer pocket make any difference? Really? We are permitted to discuss such debatable practices on this site without ego censorship. Contrast this with the reception on .50 cal spindrift.

It appears to me that while this site is purportedly for the exchange of information pertinent to long range marksmanship, it must be acceptable to the guru class and its uncritical groupies.

My criticism was never about the practical validity of technical sniping solutions, it was about demonizing those that dare breach the accepted non-technical conventional wisdom.

The last I recall of the spindrift exponent was after all the fur had settled he commended the site and stated he would avoid the sorts of exchanges the concept originally elicited. He did what was right by the site. But what guru saw fit to drag the cat back in?

darryl <>
- Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 00:27:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Lowcrawler; My post might not be clear in one respect. The reason for checking the movement of the crosshairs might not be apparent as you might say what has this to do with the group cause I don't touch the adjustments. The reason is that if they don't track there is probably some backlash or movement that shouldn't be there and it might just be moving between shots and coming back. Jerry could be on the mark with the bedding thing as it is likely to change between shots as much as anything. Somewhere there is a answer I'd say.
S&W Politics aside the S&W Revolvers are among if not the best going but possibly the binding and lock up is caused by failure to countersink the cylinder in the later models. S&W just did this after declaring it served no purpose and was too costly. They increased the space between cylinders and proceeded to make the first unreliable S&W revolver ever made in the L series. Now they do it in all of them.
Otherwise they don't quite pay attention to the action timing like they once did. Tsk Tsk! Too bad. Some worked well and some didn't.
I suspect there are better revolvers today of other brands in the new stock but the old Model 27,29,19,36 and 15's and even 10's of yesterday were unequaled. Find you one with countersunk cylinders and pull the trigger double action and note the smooth timing. The difference is quite evident. The Model 19 Combat Masterpiece is the best one I've used. It isn't quite a strong as the 27 but much more size effective and accurate for a number of reasons.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 00:37:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Guys, this time PLEASE don't get the Daryl thing started again. Perty please!
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 01:29:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 
...Just another holiday...


I'll be arriving in Pierre Friday evening, gotta work Friday morning, but I'm staying the weekend, at the Ramkota. Just tell me which bar and what time, I'll try not to drink ALL the beer!!

Mr. King:

I'm gonna have to have a talk with our Ballistician and sales people. If we had a 338 Lapua shoot that kind of group, it would have just made my day, and 'The Wall'. They're holding out on me, I'm tellin ya!!! Don't let these guys give ya too much shit on the Lapua, it is a fine round, expensive, yes, but that will change.


JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 03:10:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Boys, now be nice. I know both of you and as soon as you both had knocked each other around awhile you would be fast friends and having a beer. Just skip the knocking around, you are both getting to old. I know I always hurt the next day now. Seriously Darryl you have walked in on something that would take along time to explain(I gave you a more detailed email) and Gooch is considered to be as good as it gets in sniper instruction. I know you are a nice guy and just misunderstood what Gooch was doing. Bottom line dont get each other mad over this. Gooch may take it out on his students and I am going to go to SMTC soon. I hate running if you know what I mean.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:00:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Yep, put up the Kabars. Hell it's one of those things that gets you going and then you wonder why you went. You know it's possible to argue both sides of something and both be right! There is a high tech scientific side of things but the Pab is right with his satire! The fact as I see it is that a professional can't be hindered by getting too scientific when his life or someone else's is at stake. The science belongs on the test range and why not! It isn't practical in battle or surgical sniper work to get too precision. Go to a bench rest match sometime and see what goes on. It's quite comical the lengths they go but don't laugh if you want to stay cause they know what they're doing. In battle or emergency work that all goes to hell in a handbag in 30 seconds. It's 2 different games and you play it by 2 different rule sets. Hell 1500 yards with 50's is artillery but which commander is gonna give the go ahead to shoot a perp off a hostage or bomb trigger at more than 200 yards. It would be fun to see somebody try to sneak with that 50 or somebody try to hit a small target at 1500 yards with a .308 for any kind of effect. There is an evil mix though where to mix too much ignorance of science or too much application of it can be bad. Experience and good judgement will make up for a lot of science and vice versa. Put in another NIckle...
and the Music goes round and round!
B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:30:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 
MikeM: Hurt the next day? haha Ain't it true. Looks like Gooch spent the late night saddlin' up ol' trigger, eh? Gotta love those full contact drills. They say the taste for it never leaves your blood:)

It appears that trigger does his writing in a different place now. Are we better for that? Never met the guy, probably never will. His stuff on 50 cal shooting was interesting to me though, probably proves I am in over my head, huh?

Pablito: The M70 has gone to greener pastures. I appreciate all the words of advice you had on it.

Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Bruce, I have to admit I miss Trigger's posts. No matter what his past he does know alot about shooting. I even say a post of his on another site and commented I thought it was good that he was still teaching/helping others. I hope he can mend the fences. Hell of a waste of knowledge, if no one is going to listen. No one ever agree with everything and that does not make anyone correct. As James Jarrett says "Good men can disagree and still be great friends" That says it all.
MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:45:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 
MikeM: Like our own chat room, no?

I know what you mean, and I don't know where the trails crossed out back. Guess I was just never much for one on none shadow boxing. Much to my regret, there was always someone there countering the jab:)

Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:58:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Crap, the spelling grammer police will have a field day with the last post. Bruce we defend people all day at work and sometimes it just spills over into personal lives. I dont kick puppies or anyone having a hard time. We all go through bad times and no matter what someone has done, I wont kick them when down. I have seen bad guys and I mean bad guys turn it around and good guys go real bad, so I try to treat everyone as well as I can.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 05:08:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 


Maybe I'm guilty of seeing this from too narrow a perspective. Where I worked we had no time for such calculations due to the nature of our typical engagements. It's just that arcane techniques like that stuff mentioned earlier border on trick shooting; nothing you can count on (especially when time is of the essence) but spectacular when it works. I do appreciate being able to access such information here nontheless and I'm sorry if I was rude. I have gleaned a butt load of great ideas and methods from the contributors to this site which I would normally be too stupid to conceive of on my own.


Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 10:39:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Rick: Thanks for the help. Love spending everyones tax dollars.

Gooch: Also thanks for looking. Is SMTC still the ATI distributer in the States.

UnDude: Nice site. Expect sling order in Oct.

Getting short. Need help reaching the pull-up bar all of a sudden.

Ed <>
CP Greaves, ROK - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 11:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 

Bill R,& Mike,
Well said guys, and like Paul, I also apologize, I enjoyed some of triggers posts for the technical side but I felt they were way over the average shooters head, it was like asking the time and having someone tell you how to build a watch. This is a good sight for and exchange of ideas and no one should be knocked for it, but I felt Darryl took a cheap shot at Gooch. Like I have said many times before we "ALL" tend to look at things on here through our own narrow field of shooting experiences, enough said.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 12:49:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 
On the calculations, I agree that some of the calculations will take so much time that the conditions will have changed by the time you have your answer. I now use the basics, Range, Angle, Temp, wind. Dope it dial it and shoot it. That unless I misunderstand is what the Gooch has always said. I can do this in a matter of seconds and with the number of toes and fingers god gave me. Now if I was shooting a very long way ( 1200-2000 yards) I might look further into a couple of other principals but keep in mind that you can adjust for all the above and miss the wind by 2mph and have a much bigger chance of missing at that range.

I have no problem with anyone giving ideas on here and gets us all to thinking. An example is my sling. For years I was happy with a modified MRT Sling. Then I sent one to Gooch. He said have you thought about using nylon, so I did. Here I am about ten design changes latter in one year and I have something so much better than my original That I laugh at the first ones.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 14:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 

I am looking at either the
Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M3, or the Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M1 for my gun. Any recomendations? Is the M3 with the bullet drop compensator really worth it, or is the M1 just as good? Any of your comments are appreciated!!!
Thanks in advance
AXE97 <>
Everywhere, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 14:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Mike M,
What your saying is true and the way it is with most shooters. I think what Gooch was saying is that the ranges we shoot at with the 308 or even the 300WM this is not a real factor because to many other things will have a far greater effect on the bullet, just like your example of the wind. Sometimes you have all the time in the world to make the calculations and then sometimes you don't, you just go with the SWAG and hope for the best. In a perfect world there would be no wind and we would all have the exact range to the target but as we both know that doesn't happen. If I have a day when the wind blows less than 15mph thats a calm shooting day for me, then when you throw in shooting across draws and small ravines it really makes it interesting so spin drift gets lost in there somewhere with and extra click or two. We sometimes can make things more complicated than they need to be and a new shooter can get lost in worring about just the basics without the other voodoo thrown in on top that is for a very select group of shooters who have the skill and equiptment to shoot those ranges. I would suck triggers brain dry if I was going to be using a 50 cal or shooting past 1500 yards because he has evidently done a lot of work on this type of shooting but that is out of the realm or reality for me. Just my thoughts on the subject for what there worth.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 16:08:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 
Does anyone have a place that they like for buying Federal Gold Match 168 in about 2000 rd quantities cheap? Any leads on the best deals out there would be appreciated.
JT - TIS Webmaster <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
Do I detect a little back-peddling on your original statment that the 175 gr. bullet must be running at 2675 f.p.s to track poperly with the 308 M dial on the M3-LR ? Just what is the MV of the Fed GM-2, M118, and M118-LR anyway?

On the last part of your post where you said that the M118-Special Ball will track with the (168gr. Y dial), I am sure that you meant to say, M852, but we all have those little brain farts now and then.

There may be no meters cam for the 168 gr. bullet but if you can load the 168 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can use the (308-2600 M) cam and be close.
There may also be no yards cam for the 175 gr. bullet but if you load the 175 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can also use the (180 gr. 2700 Y cam) for the 30-06 and be even closer.

It takes a techno-geek to know these things. :-)
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address:


I enjoyed your rendition of what to do and how to do it. I just see that as all the more reason not to buy a laptop. Damn things will never be good enough. Besides, if you are not enjoying yourself out there, why are you there? Way to go.


I would like a little assistance, if you will. My grandfather, (deceased) was with the Canadian forces in Europe during WW2. Specifically, he was on Juno Beach, then went through the hedgerows in France. He was a sniper, and I would really like to research what he had and what he used, and even if possible, what he did. When he was alive, I was the only one whom he told about the war to, not my granny, his kids, or any of the 17 other grand kids.... just me.

I would appreciate some assistance here, cause im pretty much not knowing where to look,,, and i thought someone out there, may have some info on the WW2 canadian snipers.

"Jack Daniels is in the freezer, i gotta go rescue it"


sean <>
waayyyyy up north....., b.c., canada - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:38:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

and I think think the whole issue went over your head last year, and it went over your head again... you haven't got it yet.
I would suggest you buy one and use it in the way it was intended. You can't shoot tactical matches with a computer program.
If those are your definitions of "close enough", you would place last in every match I've ever shot in...

Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 21:09:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

semper fi 8541

mike vernazzaro <>
plymouth, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 21:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

AR-15 Magazine Question: If you chose between these three 30-round pre-ban mags, which would it be? Sanchez w/GF, Adventureline, Okay. Why choose? You have to. The Sanchez w/GF maybe old BF rejects that have been changed over to GF without your knowledge. Or, are they all equally good (except the Sanchez w/BF)? Mike? Bill? Scott? What say ye?

C. Ross <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:00:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Surely a guy that can write a elaborte satirical page with goobs of numbers can do better than that. Could you provide some hard numbers as per my original post as to why that is not so?
As far as finishing last in a match, I havent done that yet. I haven't won either. The best I ever did was place #192 out of 1671 of the best shooters in country in the National Matches in 1992. It was enough to put me out. My Distinguished riflemans badge number is #1021. What's yours?
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:05:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

You ever make the President's 100? You go to Perry this year?
I went but did not shoot well. My kid did good though. We only
stayed for the Service Rifle matches. Shot the John C. Garand
Match too. That one was fun.

Best Regards,

BillB <>
ky, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

To the headscratchers,

I have been following the latest handwringing about precision calculations, specially Pablito's scenario, funny one. The fact of the matter is that these methods WERE trained to SOF snipers for a number of years. When these SEASONED SOF operators heard the program and the intended use of it, each and every single one of them, ARMY SF, Rangers, SEALS, EOD, USAF across the board completely understood it.

IT IS NOT intended for the battlefield sniper who is laying there on the wastelands waiting for that target to pop up to be engaged. In fact, for the conventional army or marine sniper, under common battlefield conditions, it has nearly no application at all, because they DO NOT shoot at the ranges at which the combined MET and ENV effects will be experienced.

Again, I must say that damn few shooters that shoot, haven't done so at ranges where these effects come into play. The Fifty Caliber Shooters Association is a club that shoots long range routinely. Their matches are 1000 yard matches but they do club shoots on extreme ranges quite often. They also have some very intelligence science types there, i.e. Eric Williams, Chemical Engineer, and so forth.

They have no problem with this. My final word is this. If you have a 300 magnum, drag your butt out there and put a target down 1500 yards away, and have a go at it. By the way, the laptop won't work. It's not that simple.

To those with interest, email me with questions, ill be happy to field them. THere are about 150 SOF snipers out there with this training and i'll guarantee you this much. Not one single one of them will say that any of this is unnecessary, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHOT THESE CONDITIONS.

The book that I wrote on this is being published in NOV 99. That explains the across the board program. If you're interested, fine, you'll gain from the knowledge, for the others, keep your over-educated or otherwise head in the sand and enjoy the sand fleas life.

Later dudes.
Trigger50 <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:25:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

This is the bees knees, been looking for a site like this for yonks and yonks. Unfortunatly I dont think I'm mature enough for this site at this moment in time. Thanks for your help Steve, I'll take your advice and return.
Tony Whitfield <>
Munich, Bavaria, Germany - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
Well, I'm looking for a beefy long range mount for a 700PSS, and there's some choices to make, but for sure I WON'T buy one , or anything else, from D.D. Ross. Elsewhere on this site, an article on his mount stated that he builds tactical rifles "for law enforcement only"...well , this civilian peon was trained at the Bundeswehr's Hammelburg sniper school in 1983,and I daresay I'm as qualified to own one of his shootin irons as the cops are....MY policy...after Sig Sauer announced they would limit sales ofsome of their auto pistols to Govts and police only, I sold mine and will never buy another...I'm not going to support the police state mentality of making sure us tax slaves are outgunned...
Bob <>
Irmo, sc, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:31:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
C.Ross; Wish I could help. I use the Colt 20 rounders and some 20 rounders that are made at Parson's Kansas. I know there are some real bad 30's so be careful. Someone here knows Bill W. can tell you and probably will! Those must be west coast things or I've forgot something I've heard of Adventure line but don't know if it's good or bad.
MIke;You have a 10 ring with the wind statement. You can figure everything going and there's nobody alive that knows what the wind is really doing. It may be updrafting slightly or blowing harder somewhere along the range. Even the bullet height above ground will effect it. (far more than the earth rotation) but the spin drift is there but you won't miss on account of it at .308 ranges unless it's combined with other errors and that's the kicker! Never the less and it's worth accounting for in my book. Point is the wind is hard to judge and small errors are big ones down range and it makes a difference how high off the ground the bullet does go.
Pretty high at 1000 yards but it's only there a short time if your shooting prone. Damn wind!
B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:34:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bill B.
No, I never made the Presidents 100. I really tried when Reagan,Bush, and Ford was President. I have been boycotting this match for the last 7 years. I will try again when the patch is something I can be proud of.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello All,
I'm new to the board, and need some advice. According to NewsWeeks' latest editorial, I am either a psychotic or criminally irresponsible - I ruled out 'professional criminal' easily enough, but am having a hard time deciding which of the above I might be. Any pointers?
Maybe I should just deep six my Garands, with those evil bayonet lugs; THAT would get Newsweek off my back.
Anybody ever thought about a class action slander suit against those morons?


Mark <>
Jax, FL, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 23:03:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

For those of you living in California - there is a petition going aroung to subject SB23 to a vote by the peeple. If 400,000 some odd sign, it goes on the ballot in March. A site with the full details is at:


Didn't you know to be prepared. Have all of the formulas and constant already in the spreadsheet when you arrive at the range. Get the true direction downrange before the match starts. Then you can just punch in the wind and the theodolite reading for each shot and get an answer in a couple of seconds. When that shot misses, simply allow for it by holding off or adjusting the scope by the amount of the miss and you'll be on in two.

Seriously, that's how the crews of the 155mm howitzers do it nowadays. Punch in the receiving coordinates, fire a spotter, then correct and fire for effect. Or if the target is unarmored, spot for effect.

That's what I like about this page, a free and open peaceful discussion of ideas (two outa three ain't bad). Something for both the technogeek and the "Just shoot it" types alike. Guess which I am from my previous posts.

Anticipating incoming, the rank novice burrows into a deep snowbank.
Karl <>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 23:59:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Rem 700vfs in .308 with a Tasco 4-16X44 TJR
I was happy with FedMatch 168s.
My Dad-in-law and I pulled some of the Serria bullets and replaced
them with Burger 168VLDs. BIG change, cut group size in half. Last
Sunday we tried a 150gr serria flat-base soft points with 42.0gr
of VV n-135. Clean bbl 5 shot group was .601in @ 100yrd. We moly
coated 10 of the 150s yesterday, going to try them this weekend.
tglenn <>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 01:03:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
sam clements <SRCsniper@AOL.COM.>
MD., USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 01:27:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
With so many of you folks buying so much Federal Gold Medal Match ammo, you must have a BUNCH of once fired brass. What do you do with it?

If you are interested in selling some of it, I would be interested in buying a coupla thou... I just picked up 1000 LC 91 and have been using 1000 R-P. The R-P is about used up. I intend to load the LC 91 and 'put it up.'

Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 02:33:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

JT: For the match ammo, look through Gun List...someone in there advertising @ lowest price I have seen publicly. Email me if you can't find it, friend has a case or two I could check price on.

AR15 mags: I have had good luck with the Sanchez 30's...have no idea what color the internals are:) Too bad about Cali. Hear a bitchin' handgun bill is being introduced, or was? Illegal to sell handguns that have not been safety tested by the state...and of course the manufacturers can't send those that are already out of production, so...lots of good "old" pistols will be restricted if the law is enacted.

Trigger: Glad to hear the book is a go. If the draft carried over to final copy...many will enjoy the winter read. What is it 500+ pages? Any word on the new Sebru [I think that is it] BFG50? $1,700 price makes it kinda attractive. Spoke with someone regarding the Knight50...quite delayed, huh?

Anyone hear if BillW is back from the North? Interested in hearing about the shoot Bill, if you are home.

Old Dog

Bruce <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 03:25:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am seeking information on H&K G3-SG1, history in U.S.,general info.
Just bought one, and I am curious about them. Didn't know exactly what I was buying until afterwards. I know some know, but H&K doesn't exactly help with information on them. Thanks.

Dustin <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 03:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well long as the SKS is getting attention since it was apparently shown as a sniper rifle may as well throw something in on that. First of all I like the SKS I think its a great gun. but as all guns you have to realize its limitations. So a couple of weeks ago I decided to find out for myself just how far one could shoot accuratly.
so I set up a steel man sized sillouet ( leave it alone I cant spell) Target at 500 meters and at 400 meters. Waste up targets mind you. anyhow my SKS is still just open sites. Wich I am a damn good shot with. Well so anyhow Ill get to the point. I pounded out about 30 shots and damned if I didnt touch eather target. Scared Em. made em sweat. if they were living theyed have grabbed dirt, and with any luck dove into a bullet. So there goes the Poor sks. guess it really is only good to a maximum of 300 meters and not a inch more.

Quickbow,,,,I see you and your friend are worried about armed trespassers. well buddy alot gave you some good advice in here and listen to it all, but remember in the Ich to see if you and your buddy really are quality shots ect. your armed tresspassers arnt Innert objects or a dumb deer that only knows how to run. Point is just remember one thing, you draw down on somebody you better be ready to live up to the consiquences. One way or another. There is no second chance at life.

Partison <>
Missoula , Mt, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 04:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

The best price I have found for Federal Gold Medal ammo is $309.00 a case (500 rds) from Hoplite, Inc. in Kentucky @ (502) 955-5014 8am-5pm EST. Right now they only have the 168gr but when they have it the 175gr is the same price. They usually advertise in Shotgun News as well.
michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 04:27:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Has anyone seen the new illuminated reticle versions of the Leupold Vari X III LE scopes? I have seen them starting to make their way onto a few price lists but never seen one in person. Recently when I asked a dealer about them he said that they were battery powered and that though they were on his price sheet, Leupold has not begun to ship those models. Just another twist to the LR M3 story....
Jarrod <>
Baytown, TX, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 06:39:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
The new Illuminated M3-LR's have just a very small "x" in the center of the X-hairs that is illuminated... the rest of the reticle, and the dots, don't light up. The battery is in a large "Wart" on top of the eyepiece.

The new "NXS" from Lightforce may be a comer. Looks like an M3-LR with an objective on steroids (56mm)... The whole mildot reticle is illuminated... the battery in is in the small focus knob on the left side, so there are no lumps on the eyepiece... has 95 moa of elevation, and 1/4 moa clicks.

Should sell for about the same.

Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 11:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

To All,

Here is something i think most of you will appreciate reading...

Maybe more people should be reading this stuff than some of the news
the read in the papers.....

Manny <>
NY, NY, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 11:21:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

On lighted scopes. I have found that anything visiable through the scope is usually hitable with a normal duplex. If you have a dot or other reticle you might need it. It tends to blot out the target presumably because it is brighter than the target itself and tends to light up the tube. Careful adjustment of brightness might help. This could be night sniper's tool. But I'd sooner have a aimpoint at close range for swat purposes. OTher thoughts?
I would not take Quickbow's shooting at man Silouettes (can't spell either) as a indication he intends to shoot trespassers. Many of use Man targets I would speculate. I hardly shoot anything else. It is just a test standard.
Speaking of that 3 out of 5 shots from a good SKS should hit a man Silly at 400 yards and possibly 1 less at 500. (based on quite a bit of my own testing with different shooters)Iorn sights and all. Check ammo and rifle for accuracy.
HK G3PSG -nice gun but accuracy may not be what you'd think it would be.
I would say if you get positive head shots at 300 meters it would be the exception. It will at 200 meters. I have equipted several HK-91's and 93's and all have the PSG-1 triggers. Their accuracy is no where near their reliablity as a Sniper Rifle. I would be interested in hearing true information from others on this subject!
B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 12:33:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Damn , what a name(HA) On the M3 or M1 question, I have the M3 and I love it for tactical shooting. I don't think you can do better. I would say the type of shooting that you will be doing will dictate the scope you choose. If you will be shooting at long ranges(To 1000yds) and at multiple targets in between, then the M3 is the only way to go. If you plan on doing some very precice shooting at 100 to 500 yards you may like the M1 better because of the finer adjustments. I have a 4.5x14 that I switch back and forth on my one heavy barrel depending on the type of match I will be shooting. Hope this helps you out but its just my opinion.

Hey Guys,
I just talked to Darrel Holland last night at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree and he showed me a new scope mount he is building and is it ever slick. The mount and the bottom half of the ring is one piece nothing to come loose. He is making them in a one and two piece set up and the one piece will have a built in taper for long range shooting. He said he doesn't have any made for the 30mm scopes yet but will shortly. This would be a bullet proof tactical mount and will sell for around $75.00 thats everything, ring and base since its all one piece!! The two piece looks like a MK4 leupold ring and base set molded togeather, the top half uses the standard top ring half. I have and order in for the one piece when he gets one made for the 30mm tubes.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 13:12:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the lighted reticles: Try a mini Chemlite taped to the bottom of the objective lens with only a small portion visible. If you have a scope with a front focal plain reticle you will have a visible reticle for about 4 hours. You won't need the batteries or the extra weight.
Tony Y <>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 13:22:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Pat Murphy!

You (and son too!)BE famous dudes! P.70 of latest issue of T-S.

You guys see where shooting 60 lbs of Varget a year will get you.....


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:04:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

In the recent past I have seen a few posters asking questions about the Accuracy International Chassis system and the AW rifles. We just finished an article on our problems with AINA. We have talked with many people and s few departments that have had the same problems, some of these are mentioned in the article. If you have any questions about AI, read this first. I don't want anybody to go through the same nightmare that we have. The article can be found at
Thomas <>
South Tip of Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:08:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ned, I will look forward to your order and thanks for the kind words about the website

Alot has been said about enviornmental effects on here and we have two groups of ideas. One are the guys who study the traditional role of a sniper and that means human sized targets at ranges you have a very good chance of success 400-1000 yards. The other group is geared torward Hard Targets/Missle Sized Targets at extreme long range 1200-1500 yards. I and 95% of you others fall into the first group. For us the equipment and time needed out weigh the marginal benefit. I personally have had no problem with shooting out to 1000 yards with my equipment, adjusting for the wind, reading the mirage, adjusting for temps, dialing the corrected distance(Elevation factor) and just shooting the darned thing.

Reading charts for wind drift and such. I see that anything past 1000 yards has a very slim margine of error. If the other factors help diminish this more power to it, with the warnsing being: What will change why I make my calculations? What will this do to the calculations? Do I have to do the Calculations again? How accurate are my original readings(Wind, Temp, Range)? The world changes quickly and the longer you take to make your shot the more likely something will change and do you.

When we are talking about shooting at any distance, we have to fihure that the farther away something is, the more changes the bullet will go through on its way to the target. The wind will be different speeds and from different directions. It may even swirl. Up drafts will happen. The temperature will be different. Christ I could go on for days. Bottom line is you can not calculate for everything.

Dope it, dial it and fire at it. Learn to read the wind and the basics. Dont relay on anyone for all the answers. Get out and shoot under all the conditions you can. I doubt Steve became the great Shooter he is by using a calculator before firing on the NM Course. I learned by trial and error. That seems to be what most have done.
MikeM. <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:11:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Do to lack of funds i'am looking to build a rem. 700 part by part, and i see most of the things to build one on this site (in the empoureum) the only thing i dont see hardly at all are actions . do i need to pick up a complete rifle and put out $ 650.00 plus at one time or just keep watching for one to come up ? how scarce are they ? i,am sure i need a short action for .308, but whats the diff. between ADL and BDL ? thanks in advance fo any help i get .,,,,,, Dean
dean snyder <>
melbourne, fl, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:19:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
What I shoot doesn't shoot back but I can tell you he don't wait around for the second shot. IF you do get one it's a super mover! MOst of the time it's either 1 shot 1 kill or 1 shot where'd he go! The science you can use depends on the time you have. He don't even give you time to mill him let alone grab a calculator 1 time in 10. The range is 50 to 500 yards and any angle up down or front or behind.

More often than not you don't even have the time to dial it ! But I like to have available all the science I have time to use. A good spotter can put you on the second shot and that's a science in itself!
Here's to you Wiley! If you ever get a gun or a knife I'm gonna take up golf!

B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thomas at Sniper Paradise,

Interesting article, The Brits do make some superb equipment and firearms, in fact some of it is absolutely brilliant, and not just tactical rifles either.
However, I have noticed a trend over the past decade that the crap lands on the US shores regularly, or what is written up by their Gun Whores as a "world beater" is per just diem drivel.

To deal with a LE agency like the Coral Gables PD and THEIR tactical team rifles like that is downright criminal.

About that $5,200 price tag, I'd rather have a Ruu, Ruuug, and 15,000 rounds of ammo to practice with daily than attempt to deal with that kinda buggery. OUCH.
Heck I could have a car full of anything domestic production for that cost + loop-hole scopes on top!

Guys READ THE ARTICLE and draw your conclusions.

later gaters!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 18:01:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone try out the new Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x Long Range M3 with illuminated mil-dot ???
AXE97 <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 19:02:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, what did I do to become famous?? I don't get the TS until nearly the end of the month. Did someone catch me doing a brain fart(HA)?? God knows, I have had enough of them lately!!

Mike M,
You are so right in what you said to Ned. When I started shooting out to 1000 yards for the first time I needed a piece of cardboard the size of a Suburban to know where I was hitting!! Strange things happen to your bullets once they cross the 600 to 700 yard line. I can't begin to imagine what it would be like shooting out to 1500 or past that. Trigger must be a drunk or in thearpy by now(HA). Once you get where you can hit something out that far there is no greater feeling of satisfaction. I remember the first time I shot at an IPSC target at 1000 yards, ranged it, dialed it, called the wind and dialed it and hit it all 3 times I felt like I had won the lottery!! Don't be afraid to try it guys, if you ain't missen, your not shooting!!
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 19:26:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

My MikeM sling just arrived and got introduced to my rem.

If you don't have one of these yet, you really do need one,
you might not know it yet, but you do need one.

It is very well thought out and very well constructed.
I can imagine no feild difficulties that would hinder this
sling other that direct fire or cutting with very sharp knife.
All the hardware is top notch also.

Thanks MikeM, and thanks JT for the site/instructions.

buk out
buk <>
Happyasapiginsh*tin, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 23:02:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Was Mr. Loy Factor a left or right handed shooter??
Many thanks,
Harry Hargrave
Harry Hargrave <>
Cumming, GA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 00:15:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Jack Daniels is in the freezer, i gotta go rescue it"

I have a very similar problem with Captain Morgan, only he's in the toilet tank at the office:0)
Ned <>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 01:19:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oaky Doaky !

Bullet talk time again. Got to get this out of my system!

If...for you younguns that do this for shoot matches with Match Ammo (ex. fed gm 175's), what do you use for two and four legged critter dusting?

Do you shoot the matches with scope doped for the match load and change the dope for "hunting" loads?

Reason for asking....Suppose I want to use the super-duper-sniper- puper rig for hunting critters. If I use hunting bullets the dope will be different. Would it not be better to shoot matches with the same ammo use will use in real tactical or hunting modes? For instance, could I not use a 300 mag, 190 partition type bullet for shooting matches and critters. Is there some magic about the match bullets?

Bolt crawls back in the hole
Bolt <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 01:46:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Boltster Dude...
Hornady's 30 cal A-Max bullets have jackets that are as thin as their V-Max, and open very fast... for large "Varmints".
They are the only bullets that re heavy enough to go the long range, and still open.
B.Rogers votes for them on 'yotes...

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 01:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys if you can take timeout from the infighting I would like your input on nightvision weapons sights. I have a competition on the 28th that will be held at night, simulate a muzzle flash, 300M distance, target must be acquired and hit 3 time within 3 minutes, target being a 12" sq. steel sheet. I have looked at several night vision scopes from GEN I to GEN III but would appreciate your real world experience before I buy one.
Anthony Tull <>
Granbury, TX, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 02:05:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mike M:

Initial impressions of the Model 1:

The sling arrived today. I clandestinely slithered down into my reloading sanctuary (basement); read the accompanying paper and started fiddling around with it. Well, like everyone else has already said, this is some piece of work.

Haven't really sat down with the online manual and walked thru it, because I was too pumped. The thing that stuck me first was it's ruggedness and quality construction. You've got yourself a winner I believe.

Everyone on this site, I consider, is way ahead of me in knowhow, and I admit I'm as "sling challenged" as they come. But I've stuggled with the leather milt. slings and yours was, well, a surprize.

It really seems sort of intuitive as far as putting it on and adjusting. Remember, I don't know jack about using a rifle sling, but the set-up, adjustment, and feel of stability that it provided was, well, it seemed easy. I took it off, deliberatley buggered up the adjustments, back on, re-adjust, and, boom, same stable feel. NEVER have I gotten even this far before.

Like I told you before, I'm at square one with this tactical rifle craft, and want to learn the basics of sling use. Well, this design and the apparent ease of use even at this early stage for me is a great start. I thank you developing this design because it makes me want to learn it.

Now, I'll back off the initial rush and go over the manual.

Thanks Mike.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <>
lookin for a purse and pumps to match my new sling in Smyrna , GA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 02:47:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks very much to those of you who had leads for places to buy Federal match ammo in bulk. Bruce, I couldnt find Gun List online. Is it on the web? (Too many hits on the engine.) So far the best offline price I have been told is Hoplite, Inc. @ 502-955-5014a 8am-5pm EST 502-957-6540 (fax). (Thanks Michael) and the best online I have seen is at 375 bucks for 500 delivered. More as I get it.

Bulk/buk thanks for the nice note and I appreciate the compliment. The online manual was something of an afterthought, but judging from what feedback I am getting and the hits recorded in the syslog I guess it was a good one. Will have to do a couple of the photos over again as I am still not wholly satisfied with them, but I am glad you found it helpful!

JeffA do not worry about a new purse and pumps to go with the sling. It was designed to be worn with no other clothing anyhow... just be careful with the buckles and the hair down there.

I just received TRGT-LLP's ( data book in the mail today. The paper has a strange smell that I am not even gonna ask about :-) But it looks liek a very well thought out and thourough design. Now I am trying to decide if I want to transfer all the data from my existing book over here.

For those keeping score we updated a few pages on the TIS website last night including the coming soon page.

Counting the minutes till the weekend and I can get in some more range / breakin time,
JT - Tactical Intervention Specialists Webmaster <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 04:15:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

As you know I received the sling this morning. As for the customer focus of your business, its genuinely first class.

Thanks for the 'long range' customer support, you know what for, this bloke owes you one.

Thanks mate

darryl <>
Deep South - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 04:17:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt; Ditto on the A-max. I have not shot any deer size targets with them but what they do to Wiley is unreal. The only reservation I might have is shooting into the chest from the front. I believe it will take em out from the side. Although there is the thin Jacket there is a lot of Lead to penetrate This fall I'll let you know how they do on Deer size game. Partions are great bullets for large game.
They won't stay with A-max at long range in the accuracy department.
If it's Elk stay with the Partitions but you shouldn't have to shoot over 400 yards at Elk.
Nightvision; From what is given I wonder if NV would really be the thing to use. Assuming a muzzle flash and moonlight. Very few NV systems will do the job with no moon or ambient light at all unless there is IR illumination present. MOst of the systems around are turkeys unfortunatly. Generation 1 is not much good unless there's lots of moonlight. Generation II is so so and Gen III works fair if you have the bucks. The juicer is that it is hard to find one that zero's good enough and stays put with a aiming point that is small enough to hit a small target even when you see it.
Bottom Line is try it before you buy it! Get a trial period so you can check it out. Most of these things go big bucks and you deserve return privys! Unless It's state of the art Gen III you sure need to try it. Beware of NV that uses a Lazer beam to aim it mounted seperately. (not to be confused with IR illuminators) They work for short distances (flashlight range). LIke everything else the more you spend the more likely it is to work.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 04:48:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Night Vision Scopes,

BRogers sums it up well,I have used US 1st,2nd and 3rd Gen and some Russian stuff,the Russian gear is cheap and nasty and is a waste of money(in NV gear you really get what you pay for).The only sight's I would buy would be 2nd or 3rd Gen,in 2nd the AN/PVS-4 is a good sight and the British Kite in 2nd,2nd+ and 3rd.In NZ our Minimi gunner's currently use a Litton Ranger sight in 3rd Gen,it's the model with the lower off set eye piece,their only complaint too date is the rubber eye piece fall's off too easily.

Chris <>
NZ - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 07:46:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Since its about time I though I would enter this again, woulkd like to hear from any that had problems, Ill fire up my unit over the weekend and will let you know on Monday

some may find this of interest:

GPS End-of-Week Rollover Issue

In addition to evaluating its products for compliance with the Y2K, Magellan is also evaluating its products for compliance with the EOW event, which is similar to the date rollover at the end of the century, but unique to Global Positioning System technology.

GPS time is based on a "GPS week number" ranging from "0" to "1023". Week 1023 will end at midnight (UTC time) on August 21, 1999, at which time the week number will "roll over" or re-set to week 0 beginning on August 22, 1999. If a receiver has not been prepared to handle this week rollover event, the receiver may calculate inaccurate position fixes, generate erroneous dates or have difficulty acquiring satellite signals.


Torsten <>
Germany - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 09:55:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

When I was shooting the 168 Hor. Match I also shot a lot of the 165grBTSP at the same time and the rounds printed with in three quarters of an inch of one another out to 300 yards I also found this to be true with my 300WM and the 190MK compared to the 180grBTSP and I figured this was plenty good enough for hunting accuracy. I think most good hunting bullets will shoot fairly close in point of impact at hunting ranges. I have not tried them past 400 yards but then I probably wouldn't shoot a deer much further than that under field conditions. I have found some hunting bullets to be nearly as accurate as match bullets in some guns. I had a 25-06 that took many a local match against 300WM and 308s out to 500yds and it loved the 100gr HorSP go figure!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 11:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
Put another way..................

If you are in the military and you are on a two legged critter mission, which bullet are you going to use at 1000 yards ?
Bolt <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 12:06:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt;fit wuz me!
168 grain A-max if I want to take him out.
168 grain sierra match king if it's a matter of just putting a hole in him. Of if he's armoured up. A Match King won't stop a prairie dog in his tracks unless you hit a head or heart shot. This is typical of all Military loads produced FMJ types. The HOrnady 150 grain spire hunting Bullet is also devestating but not quite as accurate as the other 2 rounds mentioned.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 12:40:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
NV: Sure the military boys here have played with superior stuff, but I have shot at night using the following:

1. Russian 1st gen...not as bad as many say, for a cheap, cheap setup. You can only expect so much for a few hundred, right?

2. A 2nd gen Elcan from NAIT ($1,200 or there about}. This is mounted on an AR, and it will mount on a weaver style base / mount. It has proven to be well worth the money.

3. A 3rd gen I have seen. Buddy paid like, $4,000 for it? Nice, but I think the 2nd gen is really all you need for 'yote hunting here in midwest. Gun also has a laser devices tool on it, which allows you to see a red dot on target, but not from side or downrange.

Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 14:24:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have PVS-2. I know that is 1st generation, etc...
Anyway, does it had operator manual originally, or it had only tec.manual (maintainance and stuff).
about 3rd generation, it better be good for 10K!
Another question. I recently found out that I am cross-dominant.
Because i didn't know that before, I was shooting with not-dominant eye. So now with handgun i can shoot with both eyes without any problem..., what should i do when i am shooting a rifle? Advice, reference to internet articles is greatly apprishiated.
HK <>
LA, CA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 16:29:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bruce; I concur on the 2nd Gen. For the yotes. The 3rd is not that much better when you consider the price.

For Serious though the 3rd is clearly the bestest.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 16:43:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Curious, what does a LASER range finder look like through night vision when it is pointed at you?

Roger - 90th OMMS <>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 16:51:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

It lookes the same as when somebody points a regular laser at you... you see the beam, "and where it comes from" (Sniper Busted!!) except in green.
Looking over a military training area at night with an NVD, is like looking at a rock laser light show in "black and green".


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 17:25:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello shooters,

Check out the photos section. SC has added three photos that I sent of a Hard Target Interdiction course run in Yakima Washington in 1996.

Average shots were 1400 meters on unknown distances at 3500 ASL, with average air pressures of 26.75, air temps between 35 at night to 115 during the day, slant angles to 20 degrees and varying ammo temps, not staying with the ambient air temperatures.

Any questions guys, please feel free to forward them. Take a look at how the M82A1 is set up in the photos and closely at the other weapons. It was a good course running about 18 hours a day, we had a blast, and further validated that shooting to 1600 meters can be done and is done.

Take care.
Trigger50 <>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 17:59:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Iron Brigade Armory web site -

It's up and running for those interested. Still under construction, but the photo gallery and book section are functional. IBA says more material will continue to be added. Address is:

Tim Crabb <>
Columbus, GA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 18:05:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Had the pleasure of shooting a UKD exercise with the Marine Sniper school class at Pendelton yesterday, a benefit of demoing a new AR-10 system. This is the 7th week, just over 20 fresh students, plus 6 or 8 recycles from the last class. 10 full size steel targets from 110 to 740 yds. Most ranged the targets by setting the rifle up on the spotting scope tripod, laying the rifle on it's left side in the open cradle, the spotting scope is secured only with a couple of blousing bands, so it comes right off. Some have made a foam rubber channel like support and glued it to their Alice pack as a rifle rest.

Pretty good shooting, better that 80% of the class getting first round hits on all ten targets. I managed to miss both 9 and 10, at 710 and 740. I need to get out and shoot more. One candidate was wondering about his rifle, so Instructor Sgt. Ash shot the course,with it ten for ten, then shot it again OFFHAND. Missed 9 but hit 10. I need to get out and shoot A LOT MORE.

There may be a few things (OK, more than a few) screwed up in todays military, but it seems we can still turn out some riflemen.
Cory Trapp <>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 19:06:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hugo, first of all I would like to thank you for giving me the oppurtunity to test your data book. I have written an article for MOA and TS about it. In short I found your book to be the best put together so far. I threw away the one I made up and transfered all my data to yours. Since my webmaster,JT, has publically asked what to do I will tell him here. Dump the one I gave you and use the TRGT one. The paper is write in the rain and that is why it has a slight smell to it. Take the smell away and you have a book that will crumble in the field.

I hope no one misunderstood JT's statements here. He is very good with a pistol and supreme with a comp, but he is not a sniper yet. He is the webmaster of my site but not an instructor and he does not do reviews. His opinions are strickly his, not mine or Tactical Intervention's

Guys glad you liked the slings. Thanks for the kind words.

NOD's I have used mostly second generation stuff and it worked OK in the woods bad in the city. We usually use 1,2,3 Light as a team with good luck. It takes a team of two plus and is good to about 200 yards with a good flashlight.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 00:12:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone try out the new Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x Long Range M3 with illuminated mil-dot ??? Or read or heard anything about them ???
AXE97 <>
USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 02:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Well I do believe the world has come to a end, I bought a Super Sniper Tasco. God. what next,,me driving a chevy?

Bolt. Part of shooting percision is always dialing into different bullets, Temp range, ect ect. Even if you load the exact same powder and bullets you will have slight variences do to the fact that no powder ever comes out Identical to the last batch. There for anytime you change anything you should check your zero. The one fellah is right Usually variences arnt much different, at least enough to matter when shooting a large animal. But it is worth Dialing no matter what ammo your using, just mark your last zero on your scope and your all set.
Or you can do like me and have one rifle for hunting and one for competition.

Partison <>
Missoula , Mt., USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 14:43:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Neon beer sign:

View your "G" suit,cammies & web gear using a night vision device or a black light. Do they light up like a Neon Beer Sign..?

The newer "Alice gear" will blind you..... does you "G" suit glow...... scary huh...?

K.G. <>
So., CA, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 19:52:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi there!
This is the greatest sniper site on the web!!!
I was wondering if anyone has any information on vietnamese snipers and sniping tactics?
This seems to be a very unpopular subject but Im very intressted in the history of sniping and this seems to be totally ignored by writers etc.
Does anyone know anything about Vietnamese sniping escpesially around the Vietnam war?
If pkease tell me so! Im dyin to know! :-)

Keep it up!
Franz <>
Budapest, Hungary - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 19:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Cory Trapp: If you would have taken the LLR courses at StormMountain, you would have, Im sure, hit those targets.

SHort Note Gentlemen. Doc Holloway, as been under the weather recently and spent some time at the hospital after the Long Range Rifle Course 1 at SMTC I, as Im sure most of you all do, wish him the very best. A true gentleman he is!

Nice to back on line again to agitate the crap out of you guys again!!

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <>
Been off line Here in the Great State of , Ohio, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 20:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Go to this link and vote. If ya want.
Quickbow <>
hate gun control, Maryland, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 22:54:35 (ZULU) (your host address:


So far, other than two people commenting on the contents of my post (re: WW2 snipers, specifically in france, {canadian}), no on has had anything to say. I really do find this curious, as i thought there would be someone on this page with some pertaining knowledge. C'mon there guys, if you do know anything about this topic, please put the bore brush down for five, and let me know.

Responses are greatly appreciated.

Truly, i feel i am asking those that should know.

Thank you.
Sean <>
wayyyy up north, b.c. , canada - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 00:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sean, Re: Canadian Snipers in WW2
The rifle used by Canadian and British snipers in WW2 was the N0 4 mk1 T Enfield. Since he was a Canadian sniper he might have used the Longbranch version made in Canada, but there were only 1141 of these rifles made there. The scope that he may have used may have been a American made Lyman Alaskan. There were about a hundred of those. A company called Research Enterprises Ltdalso made a few of the N0.32 MK4 telescope sights. These scopes had a big C marked on them to indicate Canadian. That is about all I know about the rifles.
British snipers in WW2 were pretty good. The Lovat Scouts ran the best school. Your Grandfather may have had some training in Scotland before he hit the beaches of Normandy. I believe that the tactics taught by those guys were bought hook line and sinker by U.S armed forces and are still being taught today.
A good book on the subject is "With British Snipers to the Reich" by Captain C.Shore.
I hope this helps!

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 03:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I"ve been floating into this most informative site for awhile now I have found many of the tips and tricks posted to this page quite helpfull for my varmenting and hunting. I now shoot skeet with a browning A bolt 30-06 kicking 168 grain A max rounds into orbit. it seems this level of skill has been taken by some as thretening by the few 1% liberals.
I have had compleate BS visits from law enforcement stating that unverified strays have been hitting peoples property .... where said property is greater that 90 degrees from the line of fire. honeing ones mrksmenship makes one a more humane hunter. so what actions can I take to shut the windholes of these 1%ers any advice to this effect would be greatly apreciated
Tony M <>
USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 03:16:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tony M.

Invite them to come shoot with you and show them (with out telling them) that you are not causing them any problems. Unless its the little old ladie that just adores p-dogs it might work.

Paul M. <>
USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 04:17:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Confused about "Moly" use for tactical rifles?? I shoot Black Hills 168 Moly for duty in my .308 and we use BH 75 gr moly in our 1/9 AR-15's.

I utilize the JB/Kroil method for cleaning and have found that to give me repeatable cold bore shots. By using a data book and lots of range time, I feel comfortable with the moly. My cold bore shots are typically at 100 yds. In my rifle, I usually cold bore 1/2' left and and 3/4 low. My rifle is a stock Remington with the barrel cryoed and re-crowned.

I have had good results in police/military oriented sniper training/competions out to 600 yds.

***Questions - Is Black Hills "Moly" a liability? Would I be better off with the industry standard "Federal Match?"

OSCEOLA, WI, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 11:23:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm hot to get one of these in 300 WinMag. I would like to hear some opinions (pros and cons) of each. I have a VS in 22-250 and really like it (short action version of the SENDERO). I have a Remington LTR (light tactical version of the full size PSS in .308). I also like this rifle alot. Do I ned a new rifle? NO! I just have a bad case of "the wants". I will be using it for long range deer hunting and and informal range work. Help me out guys. Thanks, Keith
Keith <>
USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 14:03:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Al O.,

Thanks for the kind words sir. Boy do I ever have you snowed! Ha. Ha.

A .300 Win. Mag. is a great piece of machinery. The only drawbacks are recoil, noise, short bbl. life, and cost of operation. Yes. I do have one and I love it. Give the deer type critters a break and keep your "long-range" shots down to 300 yds(maybe 400???).
Doc <>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 15:22:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Nice site! Very informative, and I really enjoyed the photo section. I spent six years in Germany, working with the Bundeswehr and some others. The pics of Graf and the German shooting ranges really brought back some memories. I'm out of that line of work nowadays, but I keep my hand in with a couple of target rifles. Thanks for the work you put into your site!
Matt Kelley <>
USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 15:31:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
About ammo, I say stay away from Molly for Police Duty Use! I have done extensive testing with both Molly and non Molly coated bullets. Molly is only a real benefit to someone that shoots a great deal of round between cleanings. In PD work you should never see the need. I have my stidents clean after about 10 rounds on the range. I figure that will translate into every 20 in the field. Molly will not be a benefit in that many rounds. Molly just adds one more var. and your first shot will not be as consistent as plain old bullets, so why bother. As to Balck Hills Ammo. I have seen good stuff from them. They are loading for the Military so I think you will be OK using them for PD Use. They are now a major company and seem like there stuff is a little better than most others.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 16:16:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tony M, you shoot skeet with a .30-06? Wow, you should have your own show on TNN, and you must be hitting property belonging to others, more than a mile away. Skeet is normally contested with a shotgun, preferably with shot size 8 or 9, and a 26-28" bbl. Your rifle is not recommended. Ever.

On the other hand, if you shoot CLAY TARGETS with your rifle, stationary clay targets (i.e. on the ground) with a proper backstop, then you should be okay.

Wills <>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 18:05:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wow, shooting skeet with an '06, that would be like playing golf with a bazooka, no?

Something wrong with this picture i think.

(unless it was being done in the Nairobi desert,i guess)

Whatever floats yer boat. Just hope ya don't live around me.
Sean <>
wayyyyy up north, b.c., canada - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 18:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I Have a 300 win sendero Absolutly love it, doesnt kick much And is accurate as hell, I dont hunt with that caliber however almost all my friends use it for elk hunting and swear by it. Good luck

Partison <>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 19:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Col. Cooper says in his 'Commentaries' that it is remarkably easy to hit flying targets with a rifle, however it requires an extensive fallout zone to do it safely. He says the only place he does it and can recommend it is at Whittington.

On the other hand, if you own or have access to an area with a five mile clear zone ahead and at least 90 deg. to either side, go ahead. If not, forget it. And, as usual, any damage to property or persons is your problem.
Karl <>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 19:27:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dean, I have built a 700 from parts over the last 6 months. If you use a McMillan M40A1 stock, I suggest you go with an ADL action. New ADL's are ridiculously cheap. Less than a new barreled BDL action. (Brownells catalog) You will need a few inexpensive parts from Remington. It will be immediately evident. You can obtain the modified Win. floor plate & trigger guard from McMillan also. John Baier frequently has these stocks for sale in the emporium. Barrels also. If you go with all Remington or Rem style parts, you can probably find a suitable rifle to cannibalize at any of several websites or locally. Try SC's hotlinks,, and If you are building a .308, look for anything with that bolt face. (.243, 7mm-08, 22-250, etc.) This should get you on your way. If I can be of any help, feelfree to E-mail me. One of the hardest parts is finding a local smith to screw it all together. Good luck. Oh, if you don't have a Brownell's catalog, you really should get one.

More work with the sling.... Cuff from an old tool belt, make shift glove, tingling fingers... Practice, practice, practice.
Jim <>
Portland, Ore. , USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 22:49:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

The last time I posted a statement that a manufacturer's published information was incorrect was based on hearsay(bad idea)and unfounded.However in this case there is absolutely no doubt and I have personally verified the information to be correct.Tasco's published reticle key for the SS10x42 is WRONG.The dots are 1mil spacing as Sarge has already indicated.

To the guy who has "Lived,trained with,and used these scopes in real world situations"and know them to be 2mil spacing...........PFFFFFFFFTTTT.Either you were shooting big targets up close or you missed .

Bruce E. <>
Texas, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 23:30:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Varget, 175 MKs and Remington short-action DMs

Sooo, okay now: after poking about various regional gun shows for the past several months trying to lay hands upon some Varget and 175 MKs to do some load development work with, I finaly stumbled into some (as well as some Federal 210Ms) at a local gun shop. After paying dearly for them I am now ready to work up a load. Primary question: I am loading for a Rem 700P DM gun. While I do own a RCBS Precision Mic, I have a suspicion that I "don' need no steenking gauge" for this application: Given the long throats that modern Remingtons are fameous for and that the short action dosent give you a lot of room to work with, I suspect that my magazine box is the only OAL gauge that matters in this case. Comments?

Anybody out there have a good load and OAL for my situation that they care to share? The brass will be Norma, if that helps.

BTW, the recrowned 700P "outrage" rifle is now proving to be a pretty consistant sub-MOA shooter, even with ad hoc fireforming and starting loads: I ran some each of 168 MKs, 165 Ballistic Tips, 168 Combined Technology and 155 A-Max through it yesterday. All were seated to mag box lenth on top of 42.5 gr. of surplus IMR 4895 in previously unfired Norma brass with Winchester primers.The A-Max's shot amazingly bad in mine and another fellows rifle, but the others would all go about 1 MOA even with my rusty bench tecnique. Several groups went just over 1/2 MOA aside from a called flyer or two. I think this gun is going to be OK. However, if this barrel proves to not quite have it, how about some specific recomendations. Hart? Blackstar? These are the names I currently have fresh in mind.

I have also initiated a program of monitoring and documenting cold bore 1st-shot performance and have printed up some special targets to assist me in soing so. If anybody is interested I'll see about converting them into a .pdf . Initial results: both intriguing and promising.



Tom Simpson <>
Lovely Colatown, in equaly lovely SC, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 23:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

At the 1998 Autaga Arms Super Sniper Shootout a few of the shooters kicked around the idea of haveing some regional shooting competitions, with the idea to improve everyones skills, and have a good time.

The idea was to have one area or region host a shooting event 1 time a year with 4 or 5 events held each year. Well a year later the Idea kinda fell apart, lack of communication.

So if there is anyone in the N.M. Tx. OK. or CO. area that is interested in working something like this out let me know
Stacy McGuire <>
Carlsbad, NM, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 23:47:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just wanted to comment on the long range rifle course that was held at Badlands Training Facility in Grandfield Oklahoma.. It was one KICK ASS course guys!!
The instructors were top-notch as well as their course of instruction. The days were long and hot, but we were all plinking steel at 1000 yards and a 10mph crosswind.. Nothin like it. Made me appreciate the role of the observer and his needed skill for reading that wind!!!
If you can't read that wind you might as well call it a day! I'd like to send a thanks out to Bobby Whittington and SFC Steve Suttles for the excellent instruction.

Made my first shot with your sling yesterday. Low-kneeling supported and rang a half size steel silhouette at 600 yards. All I need now is to shed about 6 lbs off this 16.5lbs rifle and I'll work on that standing.. Excellent job on your sling!!

Bruce Hilsabeck <>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 01:41:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

in responce to some voicing range issues in the 30 skeet event
I am also a pilot and I have flowen over my range and have a perfect perspective as to where the over achieving projectiles are going, the fields backstop is 2 miles of dence uninhabitid forest folowed by another 3 miles of uninhabitable swamp no roads, no residents... this aside when fireing a single projectile weppon at a clay by the time the clay is aquierd lead is figued and the wepon fired .. the clay is well benieth the treeline in terms of perspective. I did my homework on this one as people have this thing about being shot at ... all those polled state that they dont like it therefore all fireing lines are reaserched for safty in the interest of not loseing any of the valuable people of the area.
all I want to do is master the fine art of marksmanship
Tony M <>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 04:33:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
I recently read about the problem with the Redfield Golden 5 Star scope that Paul had. I am curious if there have been any other problems with this scope. I purchased a Rem Sendero, .300 Win Mag in 97 and have the Golden 5 Star 6x18 Target on it. Thus far I have shot several hundred rounds through it an so far have no problem. My previous experience with Redfield has been one of great success. My father gave me the Remington model 722 he was given by his father, a .300 Savage that is at least 50 years old, and it has a Redfield fixed 4x scope that is at least 30 years old on it. The rifle still holds 1" grouping at 100 yrds with factory rounds, and .75" with home loads. With the success of this rifle and scope, and the fact that at the time I didn't have the money for the Leupold M4 M1 persuaded me to go with the Redfield. I would appreciate any info, pro or con, as to experiences with this scope. And would also like to hear what others prefer for the Sendero.

By the way, great site. Keep up the good work.

Dalton <>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 06:37:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


I got a response from Pablito right after my initial post a week or so ago. Scroll up and see. I too would like to know if anyone has used this scope yet. I presume the comments already made on it were based on Pablito's initial view of a demo or a show model. I would still like to hear about or better yet see one myself. No offense Pablito, I have no doubt that what you say is true but I still check out all the angles that I can for myself before finalizing a decision. I find it hard to believe that Leupold would set up an illum reticle like that and totally negate the mildots but on the other hand, I have seen many manufacturers just throw something together to get it out on the market rather than take the time to do it right. I hope he saw a prototype and the production run has a fully illuminated reticle and the battery in the focus knob. Oh well, I'll wait and see. Thanks Pablito for the response to my first post.
Jarrod <>
Baytown, TX, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 10:28:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you find it hard to belive, call Leupold, 503-526-1400, and ask for Sharon... ask her for info. That's what she's paid for. The Mil dots are not illuminated.


Pablito <>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 12:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am glad to hear the Tasco 10x's have one mil spacings.

Bruce H. I am always happy when I hear someone likes my slings. You have to understand the slings I make now are on an industrial machince and very well constructed, but the originals were made by hand with blood stains. Not as well constructed but had a certain charm.

I am going to be selling a new rifle bag. The outside is Cordura and the inside a non mildewing light weight fill. They look and work like sand bags but weigh about one third as much. Right now I am playing with sizes. Look for a few at Carlos's Match. I have not set a price yet.

One more thing: Remington Detachable Mags stink. I have to go buy some more. All three are bad now.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 14:31:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anybody out there have a good load and OAL for my situation that they care to share? The brass will be Norma, if that helps.

Tom, I'm using the 175 MatchKing w/ Federal Match brass and 210M primer being pushed by 44.5 grains of Varget in my Rem 700 PSS DM. Five shot groups hover around 0.4 inches off the bench @ 2700 ft/sec (supersonic out to 1,000 yards). Groups are independent of OAL. I've experimented from 0.003 to 0.070 off the lands with no significant differences.

I'm not sure how the case volume between Federal Match and Norma compares - perhaps one the "experts" can speak up.

Curious George
Curious George <>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 18:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

A little friendly reminder, Dont skimp on your Scope rings, My point of impact kept shifting and everything was tight,,so I assumed (incorectly) my scope was going bad. well as it turned out it was just slipping in the Redfield rings. Anyhow its basic knowledge and as the saying goes, look at the simplest first as it is probably the problem.

Partison <>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 19:02:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

So, nobody can advise cross-dominant shooter?
HK <>
LA, CA, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 19:32:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Congratulations to Bill Wylde. Looks like the Greenup Gun Guru kicked some serious butt up in Canada. Results can be seen at: sorry, don't know how to make those nice jump link things.

Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 19:41:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

HK, When shooting a scoped rifle, Cross eye dominance is a non-issue.
You cannot look thru the scope with both eyes. Whichever eye is looking at the world thru 10 x magnification that has a set of crosshairs in it,,, thats the one to pay attention to! Some target shooters using open sights will place a small piece of tape on their eyeglass over the lens of their dominant eye to obscure the vision of the dominant eye if they aim with the non-dominant eye so they dont have to squint with the dominant eye. Having one eye open and one eye shut will lead to eye fatigue if you do it long enough. With a piece of tape over the non aiming eye you can reduce eyestrain by keeping both eyes open all the time.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 20:25:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sniper Country T-shirts are now OUT OF STOCK. Sorry folks, but demand lately has not been great enough to continue carrying this item. If you really, REALLY want a shirt or two, please email me at If enough of you want these, I will place another order. I currently have just enough shirts to fill orders as of 15 August. All letters arriving post that date will be returned unless you want me to hold onto your check in the hopes that demand justifies another run. Please indicate your desire via email. Sorry for this inconvenience.

Please do not send any further money for Sniper Country T-shirts. Simply email me with your interest and if all goes well, I will have another batch made.

Hats are on back order and will be shipped as soon as they arrive. Thanks again for your interest.

Scott Powers

Scott <>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 20:33:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks, Steve. But what about all stuff with shooting with dominant side? In couple places I have read that you should shoot with same side wich is dominant, it is has to do something with natural point of aim.
can somebody clarify this thing for me? I din't have a problem before i started to read that stuff. Now i am afraid, what if i done all of it wrong? before I was shooting .75-1 MOA with non-dominant eye, maybe I should have change sides and shoot with weak side, but with dominant eye?
HK <>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 22:58:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
I just picked up a new DPMS A-15 Panther Classic w/SS HBAR 1:8. I noticed that the front site post is attached with two screws instead of pinned like the Colt AR-15. Has anybody dealt with these and have there been problems knocking the front sight out? Thanks

Rick <>
NH, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 00:29:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
Partison: I recently started a part-time gig at a local FFL dealer. A guy brought back a S&W 44 Mountain Magnum today. Said the think just "jammed up" and thought there might be live round stuck under the hammer. After we checked it out , we found it had a "lazy" firing pin. the retrctor spring is weak and the firing pin gets stuck in the primer and locks the whole darn thing up. The primer was darn near beat all the way through, never seen anything like it! So, i understand this is common?

Rick <>
USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 00:44:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

FRESNO, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 01:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hk, eye dominance.

Lots of people manage to do just fine shooting with the non-dominant eye. It seems to help me when shooting a handgun. Once I missed a clay bird at the 24 yard line because of this problem. I got the other 49 birds though. So I will mever be a Grand American Trap shooting champion! Still, if I took up bird hunting for a living, I dont think I will go hungry.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 01:55:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Looks like everyone danced around your last question. Military shooters don't get to check their rifles out to go hunting and they don't get to shoot handloads anyway. Few of the current sloted snipers are on rifle teams so there isn't any problem with zeros between match ammo and the target range. They practice with what they use in the field.

Right now the Marines are using 118SB and waiting for 118LR. The last ones I shot with were from the West coast, this might be different some where else.

One of the local cop dudes used his Remington PSS last year to get his elk. He used a Winchester factory load (150 gn sp) that was close to the Federal 168 that he normally uses. We checked it out to 300 yards and it was off about 3/4 of an inch at 300.

By the way are you a metric or standard Bolt?

Will be at SOF again, might find me at Special Operations Equiptment, or Borders and Associates.

PL <>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 03:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

No, it is not normal for a S&W to come from the factory that way. A good pistolsmith could fix it easily enough. Hell, I've been tuning my own Smiths for over 20 yrs. Send it my way if he wants to get rid of it for cheap. HA! I absolutely do not agree w/ this S&W criticism that started. I've owned quite a few through the years and have four large bores right now. They are all outstanding from the box- I just sweeten 'em up a little.
I will say that my M29-3 was pretty gritty when new, but that was at the tail-end of the Dirty Harry craze. Didn't take much work, just a little light stoning and a coupla cigars worth of time. It's probably 17 or 18 yrs old with at least a coupla thousand magnum reloads thru it and it still shoots inside 1.5" @ 25 yds. Not to mention consistent hits on gallon milk jugs @ 100 yds. 'Course my eyes are getting old now...
My two cents worth. Oh yeah, once in awhile a crappy one will show up with ANY brand.
Spud, OUT!!
dennis <>
merced, Kalisocialstfornia, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 06:22:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
I know this might be an old topic, but it has bothered me for a while and I need a suggestion.

How do you read mirage and cope with it? The mirage is just too severe when I shoot in the prone position.
Thanks for any response.
Li <>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 07:44:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
GPS update

fired up my old Trailblazer XL over the weekend and it is still right on the money, on Magellans website they have a list of units that they checked andthat will have no problem with the week shift.

I compared my Trailblazer with a military honeywell unit, no diffrence for Infantry work, both were of a little every now and then, but still closer than I can find my position on a 1:50.000 map.

Anyone out there with an older unit that had problems with the week shift ???

The russian glonass system is a very accurate system and better than the US GPS ! Because ! they dont induce a fault into the civillian signal. And at this time there are plans to start a european Satnav system as well, also without the Government screw up.

European car manufacurers figure that by 2013 90% + of all cars will have a SATNAV feature.


Torsten <>
germany - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 11:57:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


A Dumb redneck question: Will those same production vehicles by any chance be equipped with "anti-theft" satellite tracking devices too?


Why dont you send me those mags, a little duct tape n bailing wire and they will work fine!

Curious George,
This is what I used to do when I had lotsa time to play:
Weigh each of your test samples, fill with water until up to the neck mouth and weight again. Oh, dump and weight the water too (I used a small kids medicine dispenser cup and re-calibrated the scale to "0".) That will tell you case capacity. Less capacity usually means thicker walls.

44.0 grains of Varget fills a commercial .308 case up quite nicely with a 168 or 175 gr bullet.......


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 12:46:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Please don't misunderstand what i said about S&W, i didn't imply that they were all junks. I had never seen or heard of the jammin' until that instance. But, after reading all the other comments, it kinda gave me a moral conflict, kinda sorta. I sell these to people. I have always recommended small frame revolvers to women as a defense carry. having this in mind , i don't know if i can recommend them knowing that even a "small" number of them have this potential flaw.It is a known fact that any maker has it's "lemons". Just about any weapon has a potential jam problem waitng to happen given the right circumstances. I did loose a sale on on one of their "Airlight" models the other day. The customer looked at the back of the receiver where the cylinder lockpin meets and noticed it was cutting a groove in the pad of the receiver on a used model. He asked to see a new one. The new one was wearing a groove also. He commented that eventually there would be nothing to lock the cylinder in place and passed on it.One last comment I have to make though, When I was in the market for a carry piece for my wife, I chose a Beretta 92FS Centurian in 9MM.
Rick <>
USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 13:03:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Rick-Bounty Hunter,

You hit the nail on the head: carefully inspect and then TEST ANYTHING TO BE USED SOCIALLY errr defensively. Like a minimum of 200 rounds of carry ammo.

When I did the retail sales thing, I reccomended a K-frame 3" bbl - round butt M-13/65 normally if slide cycling was a problem. J frames are too small to practice with regularly (IMHO) and the recoil pulse if unpleasant for most women and novices.

Berettas; No thanks Sir! They contributed to Peoples Republik of MD. Commissar Steny Hoyers re-election campaign to the sum of like $100,000. One of them Howard Metezenbaum proteges......

I know this is not "Pistol Country" and the same concept applies to Tactical rifles, right?

later gaters!

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 13:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

I know I should have posted this earlier but procrastination is a terrible thing....

HEADLINE: A Deadly Serious Camp for Sniper Training
STORY BRIEF: Hastings, Neb. - This was not your ordinary summer camp...

Check out the full story at:

A different story about the same school, in the Omaha paper is at:,,174074,00.html

Both links were still active as of 24 August and they have good pictures so check them out!

These are brief stories on the National Guard Scout/Sniper School that ran from the 5th to the 19th of June, on the front page of two different newspapers. It very intensive and well rounded course, conducted to military standards. Some of the staff NCO's from Little Rock were there to give us their blessings on the course and were very surprised at our low drop rate even though the course was quite difficult. We had only 2 fail to graduate and that was due to failing stalks, if I remember correctly, also there were no heat or other types of casualties. The Little Rock SNCO's had many positive comments on the course. They also took notes and asking many questions of the students and staff. What it sounded like was that they may be going to take quite a few of the methods and techniques used at Hastings and incorporate them into their course.

At any rate, it was nice to see some postitive press about the military and about snipers as well. Recognition must go out to Major Brewer and his crew for the hard work that they put into making this course a success as well as the efforts to get media involved to spread the "good word" about snipers.

(There was however, someone who wrote a letter to the editor of the Omaha World Herald bitching that by simply printing a story of this sort, that they were condoning and glorifying killing, violence, war, etc... My only comment would have been that then perhaps that person should hand over his personal freedoms to someone who has earned it.)

My personal thanks to Major Brewer, his instructors and staff (you know who you are) - a first rate job indeed!
For any NG personell out there who have the chance to attend Scout/Sniper School at Hastings, NE (should it run again next year) DONT pass it up! From what some have said, it is a world apart from Little Rock. (No offense intended to the Little Rock guys.)

I should also add that this appears to be the very first time they have allowed ANYONE to run a certifed SS school (for the Guard) outside of Little Rock. Chalk up another first for Nebraska's fine marksmanship program.

Out here.

~Alive and well, Tinky Winky ghillies up and prepares to hunt.~
(You just had to be there....)
CCaspers <>
Omaha, NE, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 14:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would like to get some opinions on the L42 A1 sniper rifle. How does it shoot? How much are they worth? I have also had some difficulty in finding out how many are out there in the world? The British MoD seems to want to keep this classified. I thought it was only just an older type sniper weapon. Thanks for the info.
Rob <>
USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 18:20:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
Caution: Do not buy an Ultimate Sniper stock on an internet auction service unless you ask if it is an ADL or a BDL! I didn't. It was an ADL. :(

Anyone have a Rem 700 short action they want to get rid of?
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 20:52:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Ultimate Sniper Stock (by Choate) is only available in one style for the Remington 700. Regardless that they list, or at least Brownell's does, both ADL and BDL models. The stock is the same, and will require that the magazine floorplate and trigger guard be removed from BDL rifles. This is easy to do, and then the magazine spring and follower just fit into the blind mag well in the stock.
Wills <>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 22:06:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone know where I can get a STANAG mount for a Heckler and Kotch G3/91 series rifle? I have only found factory Heckler and Kotch STANAG mounts for $470.00, not cheap.

Eric <>
Detroit, MI, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 22:08:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Enjoyed the reviews of the stocks, but would suggest that you list the weight, length, etc. for the stocks when this is an issue for criticism (Ultimate sniper stock by Choate is 5lbs. 14oz. and LONG) and the retail price of the H-S Precision, and so forth. Just the kind of stuff that is easy to use to justify whether or not to further consider a purchase.

This is not a bitch post though. Simply constructive suggestions, and a THANK YOU to the shooters who take the time to educate the rest of us on what's out there.
Wills <>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 22:23:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

For those of you interested in how to make hyperlinks on SC I have developed a simple webpage tutorial to help you. It is located: RIGHT HERE
JT <>
USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 22:56:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Your micro-html tutorial seems to work just FINE. Thanks for the info.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
tutorial test, GA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:05:18 (ZULU) (your host address:


Regarding a load for your 175 MKs with Varget. True what you say about the mag. lenght limiting your bullet seating depth tests. Ea. mag will vary somewhat(not much), but you probably can get a cartridge OAL to 2.810-2.830" depending on the individual rifle. I've found that Sierra match bullets do well when seated anywhere from just touching the lans to 0.010" off. But this will vary from rifle to rifle, as well. This can be a moot point with the short action mag. It will fly if you do any single loading since mag length would be irrelavent.

What I've done when mag lenght is a limiting factor regarding bullet seating depth is vary the depth in increments of , say, 0.005" starting with the lenght that would be the max and still not touch the front of the mag well body. It seems that you can still find a favorite lenght (distance from ogive to lans) for a given rifle even if it turns out to be quite a jump before hitting the rifling. I've proven this to my own satisfaction with a SA M700 action with a K&P barrel. The quality and condition of the barrel plays a big part in this.

Also, I would suggest starting with 42.5 to 43.0 gr Varget depending on whether you will shoot molyed bullets or not. Start at a lower charge if shooting non-molyed bullets. Start at 42.5 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments to no more than 44.0 gr while watching for the "signs" of pressure (ie. difficulty extracting cases; flattened primers; ejector stamp on the case head). I shoot molyed bullets and a load that does well in my rifle is 43.5 gr. Varget w/ 175MK if in a WW case. If in a Lake City or IMI or Lapua case, I will use 43.0 gr. If you wanted to start at 42.o gr and increase in smaller increments, that's fine. Please be very careful and watch for pressure signs. At the first hint of high pressure, back off.

Hope this helps some.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <>
Snyrna, GA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi Guys
I've been visiting this site for about a year and the information on here is invaluable.Keep it up.Now to the point.It seems to me that with all the gun grabbing going on , and more sure to come , the thing politicians understand most is numbers.The NRA at 3 million members has clout.But it would have a lot more clout with 6 or 9 million members.(Remember there are 20 million+ gun owners)And you don't have to agree with everything they stand for.But the fact remains they are our best bet for fighting the grabbers.I signed my son up for a 1 year membership last week.Don't know if he'll renew next year,but will worry about that later.And I will sign up at least 1 guy I hunt with. Shouldn't be too hard out of 8 or 10 guys.Like the ad says "Just Do It" or someday we may be forced to go underground with this right we cherish so much.
Rene <>
Lowville, N.Y., USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone have a current price on Lake City, new, unprimed brass?

Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:54:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
While browsing the net I ran across an interesting tidbit of info that I felt I should share.

Bert xxxxxxx shot the Natl High Power 4 day Agg next
to Norm xxxxx (the younger). Norm almost won all of
the marbles save one bad string. Bert was shooting
.308 / 155 Sierra . Bert stated that Norm was "inside
my group both in short range and at the 600. I am
convinced to strongly consider switching to the 6.5/08
for next year or a version thereof" ...
Related to this, the Hodgdon Powder Tech Rep was available
on the line. I engaged his opionion of the 6.5/08. He
stated that it is becoming very popular with Varget.
There is a problem, however, of possible early throat
erosion. Seems as though the shoulder of the .260 Rem
is not steep enough. Needs to be 30 degrees so that
the cone of fire will not be out into the lands/grooves.
Otherwise, it is a winner. Norm stated that he
shoots 107 Gr Sierras as short range and 142 Sierras at
the 600.

Maybe Boots wasn't so far off base about Varget Powder after all!

for those who wish to view the original post and webpage it was posted,
under the heading 6.5/08 or .260 ?
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt -

I may be showing my ignorance here (wouldn't be a first for me!), but as far as I know you can't get new, unprimed Lake City brass. The only way I know to get it is post-fired or with loaded ammo. But your post has got me wondering if I'm right about that. I'd also like to know if anyone has a source for this brass in virgin condition!!

Gary <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 02:16:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm looking for my first real precision long range rifle, and thinking the Remington PSSDM in .308 would be a good place to start. What kind of practical accuracy and range are they capable of out of the box with factory match ammo? Are there any other rifles I should consider?

Brian <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 03:19:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gary. has some lake city brass that they have taken apart. This would essentialy be virgin i supose.

Has anyone seen the tasco 3x9 by 40mm mil dot scope in the midway catalog? I know this is not a "quality" scope but havent seen anything on this particular model. Wondering if it is accurate mil-dot or the strange spaced ones they make.
Ron <>
Ks, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 03:42:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


I must commend you on your choice of a starting rifle. My 308 VS consistently shoots 0.5 MOA out to 200 yards (the furthest range I have access to). There has been a lot of discussion lately on the merits of the Remington DM system. Essentially everybody thinks that it is a total piece of crap.

Do not forget to put adequate money into the scope and mounting. I recommend Badger Ordanance mounnts and rings.

The Shooter <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 03:59:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a recently moved in and missed alot on the roster, but I have a question for Puma the master and/or anybody else who can give me insight.
I have just learned about something called Gain-Twist Rifling, and it goes something like this " Gain twist rifling describes a system where the rifling's rate of twist gradually increases with the length of the barrel. Historically, tooling limitations have restricted the quality of such bores. However, with the best modern CNC machines, this is no longer much of an issue. For example, in one type of button rifled .30 caliber barrel, the rifling rate increases from one turn in 17 inches at the chamber end to one turn in 13 inches at the muzzle. In cut-rifled versions, gain typically approaches a factor of two(26 inch to 13 inch, for example); however, there is no intrinsic limitation on minimum starting rate. Gain twist is applicable to almost and sporting ammunition. The only obvious exceptions are those guns using steel- or carbide-core bullets. As a bullet moves through a gain-twist bore, its shank must twist in response to the changing rifling profile. The core of such hard-cored bullets will not twist, so the gain-twist rifling is likley to either excessively damage the jacket or compromise the critical jacket-to-core bond. The potential advantages of gain-twist rifling include reduced sensitivity to load variables and increased velocity. The former represents a possible boon to hunters; the latter, a mixed blessing."- Gain-Twist Rifling,b By: M.L.McPherson, Peterson's Rifle Shooter

anyway, now my question is:
is this really as good as they say it is?
and Puma:
does this please you that I did not post something stupid and dumb so that you " the professional" are not bored and will not complain????????
Montrose, CO, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 04:29:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Heckler & Koch scope mount.

There are some STANAG mounts around, but the last one I have seen for sale was around 200 $. Please note that the original G-3 Sniper version had a small scope mounted. part of the reasom in the mount. If you mount a large size scope (M 3, Mk1, etc) you will run into zero problems as the inertia of the scope will cause the mount to rock during recoil and shift zero. Ive been there. We were still able to hit the 500 meter targets (see pics in Photo Gallery, main page), but groups at 100 really were all over. I went back to a short scope in the same mount and it is fine again.

Gain twist.
The 35 mm Oerlikon Cannons we use on the Gepard AA tank have gain twist bores, seems to work for that application.

Torsten <>
G3ermany - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 05:14:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Actually you can get "new" (1993) lake city brass from the Office of Civilian Marksmanship. For more info lookk at:

If you qualify, you can get a 1000 for $200 or 2000 cases for $240!
Michael <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 06:21:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

New L.C. brass is available from the Civilian Marksmanship Program (419)635-2141 or (888) 267-0796 8:00am to 4:30pm EST.

NLU# 246 (case, cartridge 7.62mm, 1991 L.C. National Match, (.308), new, unprimed, can of 2000) $240.00

This price was to be effective until 22 August, 1999. Give them a call, this is the only source that I know of.

I feel that you may be doing yourself a dis-service by not shooting in the Presidents 100. I missed the Presidents 100 by 12 pts this year. I am still hunting my first points towards distinguished, and was one shot away at the LEG held during the Ohio Regional this spring (I shot a called "5" in offhand when the stock slid off of my shoulder as I broke the shot). I chalk it up to paying my dues. As for what the Presidents 100 means, I long ago decided that if I had the chance to step up to the podium while "Teflon Bill" was our COWARD IN CHIEF, I would make some sort of statement then. I feel that this match is almost the toughest 30 shots you will ever fire, and that is why I put up with the agony of that too long day.(you know what I mean) The real reward in making "The 100" is that to do it you must fire 30 nearly perfect shots without benefit of sighters, all the while competing against some of the best trained and best equiped shooters (military and non military) in the country! The honor of making it should\will stand out on its' own merit. Any time you shoot well enough to earn the Presidents 100 tab you have really done something.
It is too bad that someone who .....well you all know what he is, and has done.....sits in the highest office of our land with no respect for the office, the people, or the Country. As I understand it, he has refused to have anything to do with the rifle match that bears the name "The Presidents Rifle Match", let us hope that we can do better after the next election.

Steve Uhall
steve uhall <>
South West, Pennsylvania, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 06:49:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

LISTEN UP !! Before you go sending a check/money order to the CMP for that brass/ammo.... ITS FOR 30-06 !! READ... FOR 30-06 !!! To the best of my knowledge, CMP does NOT handle 7.62/.308 WIN brass. Also, Jeff Bartlett( DOES sell LC brass but that doesn't mean it is MATCH brass. LC brass could have come from a M-60 mg or a "mini" but seldom from a "match" rifle. Buyers be warned !! This way you won't be "P.O'd" when you get brass that isn't what you expected. Other than that, you get what you pay for !!
Will <>
ALABAMA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 07:56:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
OOPS !! "As I Were before I Were !!" Went to CMP site following directed path. Must be these late nights at work. What a mistake on my part .

Will <>
Ala, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 10:16:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

I double checked before I posted the info. It really does say "Cartridge Case 7.62mm New Cartridge Case 7.62mm unprimed, 1993 Lake City National Match, (.308), in box of 1000 $200.00 "

Michael <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 13:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff A,
Did you get my e.mail reference loads and my 260 barrel??

I had the chance to have my 3 tactical rifles bore scoped this weekend and I have shot Varget as the main powder in all 3 from day one. I had quite a surprise, my Pac Nor Super Match barrel looks like someone took a rake to it for about 3 to 4 inchs down the bore from the throat!! Its a 3 land/groove and the marks are in the groves not the lands. They are all length ways and not cross cut. The gentleman who bore scoped it had never seen anything like it before. It looks as if the metal is lifting up out of the groves. The rifle has 1425 rounds through it. The 308 with the Schneider barrel has 1860 rounds through it and it still looks like new inside. The VLS stock HB looks like shit and shoots great and cleans up better than the Pac Nor and its a 260 with 1100 rounds through it. He said this was just a typical factory barrel and from the looks of it it should go another 1500 to 2000 rounds. I contacted Pac Nor and I will be sending it back to them for their inspection. Up until a few weeks ago it had been a great barrel and still shoots good but is fouling bad now in this area. It almost appears to be a defect in the metal and not caused by any throat errosion or powder fouling. If the Varget was going to be hard on a barrel it should take out the factory CM first. I don't know how many rounds it would take but those are the results and figures of my rifles.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 13:39:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

News to me, now the Rem. 700 VLS is being discontinued, according to my wholesale distributor source (Jerry's Sport Center, with six locations in the eastern half of the USA). So this means that the VS, the non-ported VSSF, and the VLS, and who knows what else in the Remington heavy barreled bolt line-up are on the way out. To be replaced with what, if anything? Seems strange, as I know these rifles were top sellers for the company. Mayhaps I will call Remington and try to reach somebody in production and get the "real" story. If I'm successful in this mission, I will post the info.
Wills <>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 15:11:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Guys, taught some high angle shooting to a bunch of soon to be cop snipers yesterday. We walked up the hill and I purposely left my stuff back at the base. No toys of mine to help. You should have seen them tring to decide what to do about the angle adjustment. Dept. Dave you should have a dozen orders very soon.

I played a Rod Ryan on them also. The Fog was in fairly heavy in the mourning and the Lasers wouldn't work for range estimation. Next stop for a bunch will be the MilDot Master. They all see why the Mildot is a great tool now.

This was an experimental class, in that for budget reasons we split the classes into one 10 hour session every eight weeks. The students were expected to practice no less than twice monthly between classes. They ended up much better shots than the usual way of a straight 40 hour block of instruction. 40 hours is all the time the state will pay for instruction on snipers. It barely gets them half way there usually. All the guys that finished yesterday are fairly good now. If only I had three weeks to work on them

The June Classes at James Jarretts place, with James and a soon to be annoucned SF Major(Who ran the SOTIC) will be on Tactical Intervention in a few weeks. Should be a great time. Two seperate classes. One week with medium rifle. One week of 50 cal. rifle.

Time to go make slings

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 15:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question on CMP brass, ammo. Can anyone buy, or do you need to be a member? Too lazy to call and ask them.

I have purchased from Jeff Bartlett before...great guy, great stuff. Never had a disappointment with his brass or bullets.

Bruce <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 16:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Did rem 700 triggers use to have have allen head adj screws? If so
where can find some?
pwright <>
wayland, ky, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 17:49:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Im in the making of my first ghillie suit I'v spent 9 hours on it last night. Any kinds of ideas u can give me?

Troup <>
martinsburg, w.v, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 18:54:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Greetings all,

Does anyone know a good source for Badger or similar rings and mounts for Remington VS? Need to find the best price due to Canadian "Peso".
Tony M <>
BC, Canada - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 19:09:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Guys,

Please don't misunderstand my post. I have recieved several e.mails in reguard to it. I DO NOT believe that Varget caused the problem with my barrel I think this is a defect in the metal NOT caused by using Varget. I could be the poster child for Varget, right next to Pete, I am on my 8th 8lb keg of varget and have another on order. I think its a great powder and burns very clean compared to others I have used. You also can't beat it for the velocity, plus you usually use anywhere from 4 to 6 grains less of it than other powders so it can't be any harder on barrels than anything else. I hope this cleas up any misunderstanding or heart ache I may have caused.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 19:22:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ok for all others out there thinking of getting the Tasco SS. I just got the 10 power. Out of the box reaction was mixed. kind of basic looking bugger. When they say oversised knobs they mean oversized knobs. looks like somthing for a preschooler. And the tube is everything they claimed, never seen a scope tube that looked like this one. As far as the lenses go,it is damned clear and no problem seeing at late dusk hours.

Now however for god only knows what reason it is next to impossible to Find 30mm rings in my town. (anylogical person would have ordered them with the scope) Anyhow found some millets with windage adjustment on them. Now maybe for some of you professional types out there this would not present a problem. but IM used to the usual rings that you just slap on and go. OOHHHH no 1999 and only a few months tell the year two thousand and I get stuck with this 1890 adjustment type crap. Anyhow after cussing and blaming everyone else for my Ring woes. I finally got em adjusted and they wernt that bad to get aligned (after you read the instructions).
Ok anyhow with the woman looking over my shoulder tapping her foot and hearing we have to get to the range before her soap goes on we headed out.
Tracking seemed a little off to start but straightened right out. Shot the best group ever with this rifle bullet holes were overlapping.
So by and by thus far I am pleased.

Partison <>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 20:20:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Savage 10FP in 308WIN with a factory 20" tube wearing a Leupold 4.5-14x50 long range tactical mildot scope. I've been extremely pleased with it: extremely accurate and either I got a fluke great trigger or the factory is making them much, much better. BTW the new two stage trigger on the latest Savage Striker's feels pretty good when playing with it in the store. I hear too Savage is about to introduce an improved trigger on it's rifle line. They sure seem to be headed in a direction that's hard to ignore!

I dumped my Remington 700VS to acquire this rig. The archives in July mention a lot of QC problems and p%%%-poor customer service from Ilion NY. My experiences dovetailed and I won't be buying a Remington rifle again until the management at Remington changes.

Back to the Savage. The stock is less than inspiring. I've been looking at McMillian and am also waiting to talk to Fred Moreo of Sharp Shooter Supply. He's the one who makes the neat competition trigger for the Savage line and has indicated he's coming out with his own line of fiberglass stocks. But folks here have mentioned the Technicarbon stock. Their contact info isn't listed in the links nor could I find same in the recent archives. I'll be darned if any search engine comes up with a URL. I also tried the online yellow pages and nada. Can someone direct me to where I can find information on these stocks? Sure would appreciate the assist!

Bob (SD) <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 21:36:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

I too am a convert to Varget for my 308WIN. I'm using 46.0 gr with Federal GM210M primers in Federal Gold Match cases. OAL is 2.800" With home moly coated 168 grain Hornady or Sierras (I'm using KG Products moly stuff) I get 3 shot groups of 0.35" at 100 yards, MV of 2695.6 fps Sd 17 (uncorrected for chrono distance). Longer range is tight as well. NOTE this is a max load; normal caveats apply!

I also load moly 175 Sierras with the same 46 grains of Varget with the identical setup as those 168s. Shadows have killed off my attempts to get that load chronographed. But what's interesting is examining the reloading manuals for Varget. Sierra's anniversary edition shows the 175 faster than the 168 for an identical 42gr of Varget. The newest Hodgdon manual (#27) likewise shows the 175 faster for an identical load of Varget versus the 168. Now normal logic and the data for all the other powders has the heavier bullet going SLOWER for the same dose of powder. Anyone know why the 175 is faster, all else being equal, than the 168 when using Varget? If true I figure my 175 load to be in the range of 2720fps MV vice around 2670 or so.

Bob (SD) <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 21:54:53 (ZULU) (your host address:


Have not received any email as of last night at the address. Will have a look see tonight. BTW, the .260 has been doing alright at the Ft. Benning shoots. Next one is a night match. Outta be good fun.


Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 22:00:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am not content to report just one viscious rumor, so I will try my hand at another.
A top Nra shooter, (one who is used to shooting in the top 20 nationally) once told me that he prefers SS barrels to CM because when a SS barrel goes bad it goes bad Right Now! And he would prefer to know right away that he needs a new barrel rather than suspect that he may need one someday. A CM barrel loses its accuracy edge gradually and may cost him a few points before he realizes he needs to rebarrel.
He said that it is easy to tell when a SS barrel goes bad because of the chunks of steel missing in the grooves and throat area in addition to the way it groups. Just thought I'd throw that out for comment.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 22:20:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have been researching the best scope for the money for long range shooting with a Remington Sendero 300. I came across and found what appeared to be technically good scopes, but there wasn't anyone I found who sold them and could answer a few questions.

Has anyone used a US Optics scope? Are they available? Are they good, bad?

I appreciate any experience here as good quality scopes are an expensive purchase, and I would like to get this right the first time.

Hank <>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 23:06:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


Took the GPS (both of them) out today. They say that the house is still where it was last month, so I guess they still work.

Anyone going to Vegas this time?

PL <>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 02:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking to purchase a Remington 700 LTR (Light Tactical Rifle) Chambered in .308. I have not been able to find one ANYWHERE and would like to know where I might look to find or order one of these. If you know please email me at
KowHunter <>
Sedalia, MO, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 02:26:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
To Henry Khusit

Shoot with your dominant hand and non dominant eye.

Studies have shown that your groups will be tighter with one eye close as opposed to both eyes open. The groups are close in size but the one eye-shut groups are a little smaller, all other factor being equal.

If you shoot with only one eye, as suggested above, you will not experience image confusion that could occur if the dominant eye was open. Since you are using your dominant hand your hold on target will have more stability. You will also be able to clear potential life threatening malfunctions and tactical or emergency magazine swaps and bring your weapon from ready to firing position more efficiently, since you are using you dominate hand.

You can train you non dominate eye to see better. Patients who need bifocals but want to wear contacts, can train their dominate eye to see at distance with a distance lens and train the non dominate eye to read using a "reading" contact without much difficulty at all. In fact, it seems to work much better than the "bifocal" contact that are advertised heavily. The brain has the ability to ignore to information coming from the eye providing the information it is not interested. Scopes would initially help see the target better with the non dominate eye, but with training you should be able to use the weapon site just as well.

EyeMan <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 02:34:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bob; The extra mass of the 175 grain probably causes a little more burn time before the bullet gets moving in other words the fire gets a little hotter before the bullet gets going out the barrel thus speeding it up slightly. A bit more friction due to the larger bullet might also add to the fact as well as a little more drag against the side of the case. All these add up to a little hotter fire behind the bullet giving it a little more speed before it breaks the barrel. That's as close as I can get to explaining it. It would be different with different loads and different amounts of VARGET would also be my guess.
Pat: that sucks! I suppose the barrel is a bit too hard but it doesn't seem right unless it's chromed and I'd doubt that it is...surely not a custom barrel like that/???. The tremendous pressure of the charge must have crytalized the steel. That is sure nuff a SWAG on my part.. let us know what you find out. I suspect a forge mistake.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 03:24:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

To all -

Despite all the great stuff that has been written about Hodgdon's Varget propellant on this site I still have yet to try it out. Yes, I have broken down and bought a can of it - but I'm still playing around with the ample supply of Winchester W748 I bought some time ago.

I'm hoping some of you have done extensive loading for .223 Remington and .308 Winchester cartridges with both W748 and Varget and can comment on any differences you have found with the different powders. Both are ball (or spherical) powders and last I heard Hodgdon's spherical powders were manufactured by Winchester (Olin). I'd like to know if there is any real appreciable difference in these two powders when used in the above mentioned cartridges. And where would the two powders place in relation to each other on a burning rate chart? [I know the recommended charge weight for both powders in .308 Winchester is VERY close!]

Gary <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 03:30:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Do any of you have experiance with a HK 91? What ammo have you found to to work best in this gun? Also do you know of any heavier longer barrels or other parts or smithing for this gun to increase the accuracy?

Eric <>
Detroit, MI, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 04:50:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

G-3 / H&K 91 Barrel change or smith.

Bad Ass,

barrel change is pretty difficult on a G-3 since it is shrunk into the
locking sleeve and HK uses a massive press to do that. I would be very
careful changing a barrel on that thing.
just make sure the barrel freefloats like it was intended and do some work on the trigger, or get a PSG-1 trigger. I guess you read my scope comment.

PS. have you tried some vaseline ? usually that fixes up a sore Ass pretty quick. : )

Torsten <>
Germany - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 05:29:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

B.Rogers & Gary:

I appreciated both the public and private posts and what you both say makes sense up to a point. The fact that ONLY with Varget do we see the heavier bullets get faster MV for equal powder charges. Look at the 165-168-175-180-190 range of bullets in 308 WIN in both the Sierra and Hodgdon reloading manuals. ALL other powders indicate the heavier bullets are SLOWER with like charge weights! So the barrel and nature of the bullet (friction, etc) are identical for each of the powders used, yet only Varget produces the anomoly. It's the only factor that's different giving these different results. So rephrasing my earlier question: What is it about Varget that makes it so different from other powders so as to produce the results cited. To wit, heavier bullets exhibiting higher MV compared to lighter bullets for an equal powder charge. The only other think that I know of about Varget that sets it aside is its rather unique ability to remain unaffected by wide temperature swings... your MV is going to be almost the same regardless if the Varget charged round is fired in artic or tropical conditions.

I'm still trying to figure this puzzle out :)!!!

Bob (SD) <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 06:59:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi Guys,
I am currently looking at obtaining a M-24 SWS set up in a trade. What kind of value would be fair for this? This comes with the case and back up sights, as well as the MKIV rings and mounts, and a M3 scope. Thanks for any insight.
Stokes <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 08:35:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

There is no comparison between 748 and Varget. I have shot both in 308 and 223s. I like the 748 its a great powder but a dirty powder compared to Varget and its not in the same class as Varget for performance. I have obtained fine accuracy with 748 in the 308 and excellent accuracy in the 223s with 748 but I can get better accuracy and much better velocity with the varget in the 308. I have not shot a lot of it in the 223 because I had so much 748 to shoot up and I used it all for the 223s. The Varget I did shoot in the 223 shot very well with higher velocity. Hope this helps.

Bill R,
I boxed it up last night to send back to the gunsmith and he will ship it to Pac Nor. I hope they will do something about it. I liked the barrel and it shot well and in fact still does. I shot some .4s load testing sunday so go figure.

Your just full of good news(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 11:51:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bob; Well all this hinges on the fact that it does indeed happen but it must be caused by something I always call the power curve. The powder burn rate is a large factor. eg. How much powder actually gets burned and at what rate does it consume against how much energy (heat) is being released per microsecond as the grains are consumed. Varget is quite different that a lot of powders as anyone can tell you who uses it. I was quite skeptical at first myself but it continues to amaze me at it's performance. That is to say that certain things I cannot explain and Hogdon probably doesn't want to release determine the burn power curve so I guess it would sufice to say you might have to be content to just enjoy it's benefits.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 12:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Any AD or NG snipers out there who have went to Benning recently??? I am working on getting orders to Benning for next summer and am several questions regarding the course. Please drop me a line, I could use a little advise.

CCaspers <>
Omaha`, NE, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 15:08:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

On Varget,

Varget is a short rod powder, 748 is ball powder. I think Bill Rogers is on the right track with his SWAG about the barrel steel.

Is it possible the 6.5-08 (260 Rem)due to cartridge volume and neck diameter could be tough on barrels? I'm not doomsaying, What has been posted here regarding Pat and Jeff A's results is just short of phenomenal.
And Pat & Son kicked some booty at that Nebraska match

Those who have not gone to the Hodgdons web page www. and checked out the test at varying temperature ranges should really do so.

Stevie NatoBright,
Don't make me call you a "un-varget poopyhead"....... ;-)


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 15:32:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the input on W748 vs. Varget. I'm now convinced that I need to get that can of Varget out and do some loading!! Some of you would make pretty damn good sales reps for Hodgdon's! Think I'll go hunt down a 8lb keg of Varget - 1lb isn't going to be enough.

Gary <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 18:45:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Someone asked about how to read mirage. This is a pretty good article on Mirage by Gale McMillan. It is geared towards benchrest shooting, but it is still helpful.
Emcon5 <>
Fremont, Californication, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 18:47:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

peteR: You said the "bad word" for us gun toting shooters here in Ohi-er. The Word is Howard Metzenbaum. Shit, peteR, have you no dignity to mention such a name on the Duty Roster. We are trying to live down the fact that that fool was from Ohi-er. Please peteR, we feel bad enough, we dont need to be reminded even by the mere mention of his name!! DAMN!!

al o.
Al OStapowicz <>
Squirming in Disgust here in the State of, Vomiting, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 19:07:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Guys,
I just called Hodgdons and talked to one of their reps about Varget and he said "ABSOLUTLY NOT" Varget will not cause anymore throat errosion or barrel wear than any other powder of a similar burning rate. They have not even heard of such a thing and they keep in touch with a lot of the shooters. So now we have it from the horses mouth, so to speak!!!

Jeff A,
That was the address I sent it to, I will get the info from home and redo it for you. I had tried some N-165 and 540 with 140MKs and 142s, both went into the .4s with the 540 looking to be the best and most consistant.

Thanks for the KUDOs, but I didn't do all that well in Nebraska, my partner and I finished 4th because of to many brain farts. Major Brewers baby snipers did themselfs proud down there, but look out next year(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 19:09:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok I know IM going to get the snot kicked out of me on this one but here it goes.
Why bother With the NRA at all. I mean really all they seem to do is make constant deals. they say one thing and do another. there against background checks but according to them ones at gunshows are ok in a resonable time frame. They also support the Trigger Lock bills. And they have not dont much of anything in the support of quote "assault Rifles". Also they are Pushing hard on Previouse gun laws wich have not been enforced. so my question on that is does this include the latest with Domestic assault, wich by the way you can get one of those from just arguing with your woman and a nieghbor turns you in.
Also I keep hearing this in the hands of the right people. What is that and who exactly decides who can be armed or who couldnt be?
Anyhow I am letting my membership laps with the NRA for those reasons and more. And looking to put it in another more compatent Constitutional organization that defends all our rights, of course the second. And every gun not just the ones they deem necissary. for Id like to make my own choice on what I will have and what I wont.
I dont think alot of people realize the severity of just how fast we are losing our rights. anytime we compromize on any amendment. we are giving in. All people should be resoponsible for there own safety and make there own choices on how this should be done.
I said it once in here and Ill say it again. you people really really should check out everything you can on the UN. What they have in store for this country and the world scares the hell right out of me.

Partison <>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 19:25:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

HeyGuys, its me aagain. Just a quick comment on Remington rifles. The quality control may suck at this particular moment but the actions made even two ago were top shelf. If you can find a good used Remington barreled action (even if you have to rip a decent BDL apart) the actions are still worth the cost of the ride. Then have it rebarreled with your favorite barrel,, buy a good stock, like a McMillan A3 (sorry Mike I still like the A-3) or an adjustable HS Precision and you have got one hell of a tactical rifle which, with the correct ammo, will shoot 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. Make sure the action is trued up and replace the regular Remington action screws with B Square allen headed ones. There you have it. Buy the best optics you can afford. Any Questions??? E-mail me!!

Al o.
Al OStapowicz <>
SOmewhere South of Lake Erie in , Ohi-er, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 19:30:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Al, buddy I never said I didn't like the A3. As a matter of fact one sits on my new McMillan rifle, the opne being tested against the HS Rifle. I wanted the stocks to be similar. I just like the A4 for rough field use better than any other stock. If you want a pretty stock it is not the A4. If you want one that will take what you can dish out and keep working the A4 is the way to go. All McMillan stocks are rough and ready but I like the hand hold area of the A4 for prone/sniper shooting. I have not tried but I think the A4 could be used for a hammer in a pinch. By the way Jerry Rice took a look at the A4 and said it was ugly. Before the A4 the A2 and A3 were my favorites.

Powder I say if the bbl is showing signs of metal cutting in a medium rifle after as few as rounds as 5000, the bbl is no darn good.

Pete, I have to load for a 50. Varget wont do it. LOL

MikeM. <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 20:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

REPLACE action screws with B-Square allen headed ones. AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH no mas, no mas, I can't handle anymore changes.

Has anyone read the Sinclair method of barrel breakin and cleaning for uncoated boolits? It seems much simpler that other methods that I have read.

Too many things are stacking up and looking bad to going to the match. SORT is getting ready to go on 4 hour standby for the hurricanes out there now and the rest of the season. Starting 5 new construction projects at work. Damn! If I can't make it, will send check to Rod for a case of J.D. for drinks on the house. If anyone knows anyone that can definitely go, and hasn't gotten a reserved spot let me know. The entry will be free.

Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 21:15:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Boltster...

No Good Dude... you can't bale out.
Lucy's "Sheep Dip Caf" has a Greasy ol' Bacon Cheeseburger reserved for you... (they made it last March)... comon' guy try to make it!


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 21:25:11 (ZULU) (your host address:


Read your comments about Rem actions, A3 stocks and such. Glad to hear it cause I yanked the 308 out of the Technicarbon stock ( nothing against Technicarbon, whatsoever); had it bedded in an A3 and installed the HS fp/tg assy with the detach magazine (Thank you , Janet). I just plainly and simply like the A2/A3 style because of the feel. Have tried a few stock styles. So far ,these just have the best subjective feel to them. No slam on the others.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 22:57:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would appreciate any help in locating a replacement trigger guard/floor plate for a Remingtom MDL 600. The plastic part has retired. Thanks to any who respond.
Frank <>
coos bay, or, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 23:06:13 (ZULU) (your host address: