I have one of those 13" - 25" Harris Bipods... been in my basement for 7 years :((

For those of you that know the bum that LOVES M25's... he made a giant step forward today... and the opposition made a MAJOR BIG loss :)))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 00:57:15 (ZULU)

    Any idea when you are going to have the article on the .338 done?  I'm stoked to read it.  I put money down on the RUM and will give it a try.  If I dont like it I will put it in the safe and buy the Lapua :).  

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:13:01 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:25:05 (ZULU)

Peter; I shot a few coyotes with that round. If that pig didn't drop it would have surprised me. Elk or Buffalo might be different.

Scott; stay back from the scope........way back.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:28:42 (ZULU)

Anybody shot any of the Hornady 178gr AMAX boolits?  Any good?

Don K.

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:32:43 (ZULU)

pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 02:25:36 (ZULU)

                  Great news. Hope you get back here soon!

'lito......

           Like 'yote bait says. Thanks.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 03:29:31 (ZULU)

I've heard lots about the Nightforce scopes so when I was at the fun store the other day I checked one out.  The optics seemed to be really clear and the lit reticle was cool.  I did notice that they are built in Japan, marked right on the side.  I also know that Springfields scopes are made by a company in Japan.  Are these scopes made by the same people?  If the Nightforce's reticle was lit green I be really suspicious.  Anyone know for sure?

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:53:52 (ZULU)

Jon see you there.

Marco, Pick you up.

JR, you coming too?

regards. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:59:29 (ZULU)

Well ole buddy, it's been a long test and trial. Congratulations and welcome back to the assembly of LR gun sluts. Seems that Lito's the first to let the cat out of the bag ;))) Let's all lift a glass, Lads, for the returning of a brother, to the 'band of brothers'.

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 05:25:27 (ZULU)

Pete and Marco. You guys get your Mouflon the hard way. I walk out and just feed mine every morning. It's much easier. I had one that would follow me into the house if I weren't carefull. But the current ones I can not even pet.. Theys purty animals...

Dirty Steve, out..

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 06:38:11 (ZULU)

             Following are Colt AR-15 barrel codes:

 C or SAK = manufacturer of barrel

 MP       = Magnetic Particle inspection (similar to Magnaflux)

 C        = chrome chamber

 B        = chrome bore

     or

 CB       = chrome chamber and bore

 xxx      =  chambering and rate of twist (5.56 NATO 1/7)

 RUC

  or      =  may be stamped instead of C for chrome chamber

 RNC

  or

 CHROME BORE may be stamped instead of above C,B,CB,RUC,RNC

So it looks like your Colt does not have a chrome bore. Another way for you to tell is with a clean bore the chrome bore will look a bit 'frosty' as opposed to the plain barrel which should look bright and shiny. Remember that this is industrial hard chrome that we're talking about, so it won't shine like decorative chrome plating. This, and the rumor that all Colt AR's have chrome bores is what fools a lot of people.

HTH,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 13:23:48 (ZULU)

On Springfield versus Nightforce scopes being made in the same country.  Well lets say yes and compare the Ford Pinto (Springfield) to the Suburban (NXS).  Do I need to say more? LOL  NXS is a very good scope.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 14:10:06 (ZULU)

 Completed a whirl-wind 18 state tour of the U.S. and only got to stop and visit George Gardner.  Ordered a rifle in the "Gumby" series in .243 with H-S Prec detachable mag, 24" Rock barrel, HTG on a Rem 722 action.

 Missed visiting Cat Shooter due to a late start and also missed Bruce Robinson while in El Paso/Las Cruces due to wife and daughter-in-law overrides.

 Andy's Dad:  good to hear you're well and back in the U.S.

 UnDude:  Saw a nice Windrunner while at George's place in KC.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Somewhere, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 14:16:49 (ZULU)

Old Ironsights <scsmith@micron.com>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 15:12:16 (ZULU)

C MP 1:7 bbls are all chrome bore and chamber

  - the C is for Colt

B (Bushmaster) MP and D (Diemaco) MP bbls are also all chromed.

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 15:25:43 (ZULU)

Sierra Echo, hope to hear from you soon...

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 16:32:02 (ZULU)

Today was my first day of "driving" so I went to the range.  I fired five cold (clean) bore shots onto the same target.  I don't know what has happened but I'm good to go.  All five holes are within 1/2 inch of the point of aim.  I'm happy.  My doctor said that one of the heart drugs they've got me taking is considered "Performance Enhancing" in the shooting sports.  Maybe it is because I've never been more centered and "in the bubble" as I was today.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 17:13:52 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 18:12:43 (ZULU)

Glad to see your getting out and going to important places. Keep up the good work..

Allen and Kevin of GWN. It was my impression that CMP ment Cryo treated Chrome lined (Metal Plated).. Some one ring in here for a tie breaker...

Dirty Steve, Out

Dirty Steve <Ginger@devtex.net>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 18:36:44 (ZULU)

Normally given to allow your heart to fill with blood better between beats or so I was told. Anything that will lower blood pressure has a tendency to tighten groups.

bill rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 18:43:57 (ZULU)

Beta-blockers

Calcium Channel Blockers

ACE inhibitors

ACE II inhibitors..

all act to reduce blood pressure...

Tenormin is a beta blocker.

With tongue in cheek, one could argue that Viagra also 'displaces" blood from the common circulation and thus provides a potential for lower BP...

JR - I will call John Holliger, thanks.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 19:30:07 (ZULU)

does anyone know where i could purchase a tasco ss 10x42m scope please as swfa have sold out of them for the forseeable future,any help would be very much appreciated.

thanks

guy

guy richards <guy@richards2.fslife.co.uk>
u.k. - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 19:42:54 (ZULU)

Back to  the buffalo---some drugs used to tranqualize large ruminants will cause hyperthermia.  It doesn't take much of these drugs to drive a bison that is already hot and bothered up to 106 to even 109 F(when they get this hot they get REALLY stupid).  The local Indian tribes up here just herd their runaways with a trusty gun-its all shot placement.

Adam Wiechmann <wiechmannadam@hotmail.com>
south dakota, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 19:44:38 (ZULU)

CATS! lower your blood pressure. Except for one Guy in the North East somewhere who has the reverse reaction. I hear he sees a cat and his groups go to pot immediately. When you have the reverse reaction the only relief is to get a CATSCRAM!

Honest Guys, I don't make this stuff up! They really do use Visine in Prairie Dogs eyes! They move them to Miami beach too!

Adam are you saying you really can't skate in a buffalo herd!

bill rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 20:12:15 (ZULU)

                  I supplied the info - do with it as you wish :-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 22:08:04 (ZULU)

Time to make the boolits!!

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 23:59:52 (ZULU)

and they are chrome throughout.

My M4A1 (RO921) bbl is marked C MP 1:7

My C7A1 bbl is marked D MP 1:7

both of those I know are chromed through out.

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:01:44 (ZULU)

I just moved back East here and there are all these wonderful schools within real driving distance.  Low and behold, I find a 500 yard range in Staunton, just an hour south.  Where do I start?

I was thinking I needed to visit Storm Mountain next year for the basic class (I saw the schedule and this year just isn't going to happen).  I haven't read any complaints about the training and West By Gawd is a hell of a lot closer now.  Anything changed there at all?  

Anyone with other suggestions?  I see Gooch is up and running now and I am tempted.  Like I said, I ned a basic LR/Sniper class and am looking for info/experience.  I read the rebiews/articles.  I am just looking for anything more.

Thanks,

Steve

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
occupied, old dominion, usa - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:08:46 (ZULU)

Tabasco has been out of business for about 3 or so months, so SWFA ain't getting any more, EVER.

One of the Rostafarians said that actually, Tabasco has been out of business for years, but just didn't know it until a few months ago.  I think there's a fair amount of truth in that statement.

You might look for one on eBay, or on the Emporium, but why??

Get a real scope.

-

'yote Bate...

Dang... we have Prairie Dogs taking strawberry scented bubble baths while we draw a bead on them, and bullalos on drugs...

...mang, P.E.T.A. isn't going to love us anymore.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:39:15 (ZULU)

Locate chuck

Range chuck

Dial dope as required

Go into hold mode and track  until chuck sits up

When chuck sits up, break shot within 2-3 seconds{orless}

This is similar to the sniper/observer shot at the ASC but utilizes a live target with unpredictable exposure time..

Chucks in pastures and hay meadows are ideal for this drill..Those on rocks, logs, brace posts, etc., are to be taken as the shots present themselves..

Shot a hay meadow this eve. and was 7 for 10 on this drill...Neck is sore from laying in hold mode waiting, but it surely was a nice way to spend a summer evening..

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Bustin' chucks in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:40:26 (ZULU)

a corection to my orignial post of the CF looking for the SR-25/AR-10.  It appears now that the new MRS (marksman rifle system) is going to be a 5.56mm afair a la SPR using match (77 or 100gr ammo)

The MRSWS (med Rge) will be a .338LM (I guess the .408 did not get the nod)

 And the .50BMG LRSWS (long range).  The EDM ARM Windrunner look like a fav there.  

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:54:01 (ZULU)

I'll second Kevin OTGWN's opinion on the Colt barrels.

CMP = Colt Magnetic Particle Tested.

All Colt 1/7 twist barrels, and their chambers, are chrome plated.  I've got three Colt guns with 1/7 barrels and all are chromed in the chamber and bore.  

Colt sometimes marks their barrels as CHROME or CHROME PLATED but not usually.  

I don't think the Final Finish product would do much for a chromed bore.  I believe it's meant more for a chrome moly match type barrel.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 01:26:24 (ZULU)

Mark W. I don't suppose you need help with them chucks? I dont eat them any more but theys fun to shoot... Once I went to shoot some on a friend of my Dads place. I made a cut out of one made out of thin wood sheet. Panneling I believe it was. And painted it to look like a chuck. My borther shot it once with a 22 Mag. and we left it sitting on te corner of his garden. He wasn't home by the time we finnished shooting. He spotted it in short order and cominced to shooting it. He was getting mad and started walking toward it shooting more since it wasn;t dying or running off. Well he finally got close enough to see what was going on.. He called Dad and said it was a dang nice likeness so much so he shot it 5 times...

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 04:02:38 (ZULU)

Should I hold out for a Stealth or maybe start looking at the PSS ?

Thanks  Tim  

Tim Duncan <tduncan1@midsouth.rr.com>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:01:15 (ZULU)

if youse havin' trouble finding a Stealth, why not just build one?  All youse gotta do then is find a model 70 of length action needed, throw the stock and barrel aside, order an HS stock, and rebarrel the bugger.  Oh yeah, that's really expensive, ha!    

out

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:21:31 (ZULU)

                No offense taken.

Dirty Steve, Kevin,Moe,etc......

                First, my info supplied was in relation to the Colt Match Target HBAR series with the ser. no. prefix MT, as Dirty Steve originally posted regarding his rifle. When I first gathered this info it was because I own four Colt MT's and was not interested in clouding the issue with info for the R,AR,LE,CR,SP,or numerical prefix (military) guns.

                Be that as it may, I did a little more investigation into this issue this evening. What I came up with is pretty interesting:

           1st. "C" identifies Colt manufacture barrel. The only relation to chrome is that the words happen to share the first letter in their spelling.

            "MP" identifies Magnetic Particle inspection, i.e. checks made to reveal flaws in the barrel, after manufacture but before final installation on the rifle. Also has nothing to do with chrome.

            "C","B", or "CB" next in the sequence denotes chrome chamber and/or bore. If it doesn't appear here it is NOT chrome unless

            "Chrome Bore","RUC",or"RNC" are stamped on the barrel. Usually above the alpha/numeric designation denoting mfg., insp., chambering, twist rate, and sometimes configuration (HBAR).

Please reference http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/barrelsbolts/ for verification, but please read the chart carefully, it can be a little tricky to interpret, but it does confirm the info that I hand copied from the literature brought home by a local PD 'smith who was sent to Colt Armorers School a couple of years ago. I also visited my friends gunshop and looked up the same info in a book that he sells called "The M16/AR15 Rifle" by Joe Poyer (p.68). Finally, I double checked the four Colt MT's and the Colt SP-1 Carbine (pre-ban) in my collection and they all fit this criteria! Again, I repeat, if you're inspecting your rifles bore and it's mirror shiny when clean, it probably isn't chrome. Remember, I originally researched and posted this for the Colt Match Target with the Colt or Saco made barrels, and I'm not doing this for an ego trip. I only wanted to correct what I believe to be a commonly held misconception. If by any chance I am wrong I owe you guys a big apology, but I'm using easily verified sources and not basing this on anecdotal incidents only. Since all Bushy's (except the NM) are chrome lined, and I never intended to get into them in the first place, I don't really care what their barrels have stamped on them!

Thank's for bearing with me,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:32:38 (ZULU)

I saw this information on Gunsamerica.com.

This lady seems to be selling Winchester rifles at a good discount relative to the gun shops around me.  She advertised a Win. Stealth .308 recently for $590.00.  

Elizabeth A Mogavero

Email: ihntnfsh@aol.com

Phone: (631) 862-0484

You can go to www.gunsamerica.com and see her ads or call her for a specific item.

Never dealt with her or anything.  Just came accross some of her ads and thought you might want to check it out.  Posting it because some of you others may be interested too.

LT

LTChip
Placerville, CA, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:33:59 (ZULU)

Personally, I think chrome bores have their place, but that's in belt fed machine guns where it wouldn't matter if they were accurate or not.  There is THE classic case where longer life exceeds the need for accuracy.  That, Jim, is practical.  There is no practical accuracy when it comes to shooting one boolit at a time, either it is accurate or it is not.  Either it is going to put it where ya point it, or it's not.  Don't sell yourself short on this 'practical accuracy' voodoo, is all I'm trying to say.

Off to my 'barenaked ladies'(non lined barrels, ha!), later aye!

JR

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:34:30 (ZULU)

Better be careful taking Viagra and shooting... we'll jut call you "Tripod".  8)

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 06:20:36 (ZULU)

I'm not sure if you are the one that emailed me on the Stealth but you may want to try one of the other Sportsmans Warhouse stores.  The usually stock them.  www.sportsmanswarehouse.com

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 06:31:19 (ZULU)

Tim, Just go to your favorite gun shop and have them order a Stealth for you. Thats what I had to do. The shop I use carrys only Remmies and Savages in bolt action. A week later I had it in my hands.

Dirty Steve, out.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 07:18:32 (ZULU)

*****

">Sinister et. al.

A correction to my orignial post of the CF looking for the SR-25/AR-10.  It appears now that the new MRS (marksman rifle system) is going to be a 5.56mm afair a la SPR using match (77 or 100gr ammo)

The MRSWS (med Rge) will be a .338LM (I guess the .408 did not get the nod)

 And the .50BMG LRSWS (long range).  The EDM ARM Windrunner look like a fav there. "<

*****

I made a similar comment on another site, about the .408.   My thoughts are that if it hasn't caught on by now (with all the promoting that are doing), that it isn't going to make the cut... I have been getting e-mails from the company's principals for about 3 or 4 weeks (they are really pissed)... but I think there are a lot reasons that the .408 isn't getting accepted, and you guys did right with going with the .338 Lap, and the 50BMG.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 07:50:17 (ZULU)

Bushnell bought Trashco.  Who knows what will happen with the ss.  Buy a loopy.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 11:35:43 (ZULU)

I have been out for a couple of weeks and am behind.  I have received e-mails from several of you and I just have not had the opportunity to respond.  I am getting caught up and will respond as quickly as possible.  Please bear with me.  I hope all is well with everyone.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 13:01:45 (ZULU)

If I may offer a response to Tim's question below regarding the Stealth:

A buddy of mine just ordered one and he was told it would arrive in  about 3 months.  Don't know if you want to wait that long.  A dealer with good connections may be able to get one quicker.

Regarding the PSS Tim referenced: I have a VS in .308(which is essentially the same thing with a different stock) that has been reliable and will shoot 3/4MOA (if I do my part)and is bone stock except for adjusting the trigger to 3lbs.  Rifle choice, of course, is highly subjective and I'm sure there are plenty of people that would tell you to wait for the Stealth.  I haven't personally owned one, so I can't say if it's better than the PSS or not.

OK now a question:

I'm upgrading scopes and want a Leupold M3 type.  Since this is a hobby and lives don't depend on my abilities, is it worth it for me to go with the Mark4 M3, or would the vari-xIII M3 serve just as well to defend myself against groundhogs at Long ranges and possibly try some tactical matches in the future?  

Thanks,

JB

John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
Gettysburg, PA, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 15:11:55 (ZULU)

Don K.

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 17:13:36 (ZULU)

On MK4 M3 versus M3 Longrange.  If you get the second gen mildot from Premiere version I believe the M3 Longrange will serve you well and cost far less than a new MK4 M3.  You watch the emporium and you will find a MK4 M3 for 800.00 so keep that in mind.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 17:35:40 (ZULU)

From the Maryland AR15 site:

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/ar15brands.msnw

"Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: All current (COLT) manufacture 5.56 rifles have chromed chambers, only M4 & A2 barrels have chrome bores (older barrels do have both chrome lined bores & chambers)"

My Colts are either M4 or A2 barreled, chrome bores and chambers.  

Current Colt Match barrels will have a chromed chamber only.

Half the fun of owning a Colt is trying to determine exactly what you got!

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 21:50:27 (ZULU)

I too have been thinking about going with the Leupold M3 LR...  thanks for the info on that subjet as well.  

The listing for the Stealth on GunsAmerica.com is old as hell and the woman will not take down the ad.  Some peoples children....

Thanks again,  USMC_LB

Tim Duncan <tduncan1@midsouth.rr.com>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 00:13:18 (ZULU)

I too have been thinking about going with the Leupold M3 LR...  thanks for the info on that subjet as well.  

The listing for the Stealth on GunsAmerica.com is old as hell and the woman will not take down the ad.  Some peoples children....

Thanks again,  USMC_LB

Tim Duncan <tduncan1@midsouth.rr.com>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 00:13:28 (ZULU)

you should also look for Winchesters' HBV.  The same rifle but with a stainless steel Schneider barrel and a jeweled bolt.  Very nice and can normally be had for a reasonable price.

I had to call winchesters distribution center and get the names and numbers of distributors that received more than 4 or 5 of the last shipment.  I got the last one lest year.  It took them 9 months to put out another run, or 5 months more than they expected.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 00:40:35 (ZULU)

The HBV isn't a Schneider... that barrel (if a Schneider) would be about $700 by itself... but it is a GOOD barrel... probably a Dougles AG or Wilson equivelent.

The Schneiders came on the First issue of the M70 Sharpshooters... but that was a $2,500 stick, out of the box!!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 01:23:27 (ZULU)

As usual,, I must have gotten some bad juju for someone who "knows".  One of the guys who owns a range here swears that Winchester said his 223 pipe was a Schneider, as they were asking for his rifle back due to a headspace issue which it didn't have.  He never sent it back.

I've seen two of the 308's, a 223 and a 22-250 up close and personal now,,, they are all outstanding rifles.  I can't think of any factory stick that is of the same quality for the money.  The 308's both shoot about .5 moa, and the 223 and 22-250 were even better.  For about $600, you just can't go wrong IMHO,, whatever tube it wears.

You ever get the 40X .22LR worked out, or is the Winchester 320 still beatin' it up ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 01:33:45 (ZULU)

'lito, and Mike

I agree with your interpretation of the .408

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 03:23:26 (ZULU)

              Yeah, thank God:-)

All........... Anybody here have anything to say about the Gun Kote finishing process? Good, bad or indifferent? Can it be applied over prior finishes  such as Black Oxide or Parkerize? New business in town is offering this process, his work looks good from what examples I've seen, and I have a Black Oxide job that's just not cutting it!

TIA,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 04:27:36 (ZULU)

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 04:31:49 (ZULU)

Oh on M3 LR's I have two and will be getting a third soon. I only have had them for less than a year. But really like them. I worried at first over the 1 moa clicks. But thin a bout it you will never be off more than 1/4 MOA since you cant stop beteewn clicks.. Thats an inch at 400.. Works for me.. If I thought this through correctly.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 05:18:33 (ZULU)

Will the M3LR fit standard Badger rings and 20 MOA base on a Stealth?

Or are they to short. Rock barrel. Will the bolt clear?

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'ton, IN, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 11:18:35 (ZULU)

The M3LR and the badgers work great on a  stealth.  Click on my name and look for the black rifle.  You can see what kind of clearance you'll have.  The Stealth barrel isn't quite as large as a #7 Rock, but it's as close as any factory stick gets.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 13:19:53 (ZULU)

For the 300WM, I switched from RL-22 to RL-25.  It tightened the SD and gave a hair more velocity.  The real difference other than the SD was the temperature sensitivity.  There isn't much.  Form a 'cold" day of 35 to a warm day at 85, the change wasn’t much.

Of course, now that I have a few thousands rounds of my favorite recipe loaded, Hodgdon went out and produced the “RETUMBO” powder. Considering that I love the Benchmark for 223 and Varget for 308, I will tryout RETUMBO for the 300WM.  RETUMBO should be a fantastic powder.

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 16:01:08 (ZULU)

Still not a big fan of the .338 Lapua magnum.  Training will be a bitch with it.  Hell if a guy shoots 500 rounds through it at a school it is getting near barrel replacement time already.  I still think .308 is a better battlefield solution.  We use it, brits use it. NATO uses it....I think its overkill for a 1000yd "medium" range gun...but thats just me.  Imagine if a guy has to shoot from some position other than a nice stable prone position with lots of shoulder behind the gun....ouch.  

Question...what is the hottest, SAFE, .308 load using a 190 grain projectile ya'll have used and what kind of accuracy did you get out of it.  I'm wanting to try some heavy loads in my gun.  Its got a 1:11 barrel.

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 16:12:49 (ZULU)

The theory (as I understand it) is the 5.56mm MRS can go out to 800m - the .338lm will be used out to 1200m, and the 50 out to 2000m (and longer)

The C3A1's are running out of parts - and instead of getting another 7.62mm system it was decided to go with a system that will give a standoff distance from normal small arms - somethign the 7.62mm just does not do.

Also suppressors are spec'd for all - so it will be a little easier on th shooter and observer

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 18:20:46 (ZULU)

I have run 190's in my .308 at 2605 with 42 grains of Varget, in Lapua cases... no presure signs... a nice load and very accurate... 10" twist bbl!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 18:58:20 (ZULU)

 I just bought a Savage Model 516 Striker .308 Win. I got a good deal on it at the gun show today. I've never fired a bolt action pistol before and need some advice on scopes for it.

 If this were a rifle, I would go Leupold. Would a regular Leupold pistol scope be good or should I consider an Aimpoint or similar scope? Ruggedness is a priority, of course.

 Anyone have any experience with this gun?

                 LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 19:09:27 (ZULU)

Something sort of like that is right.  

Winnie HBV (Heavy Bitch, Very) barrels:  An article a few years ago in PS said that they are Wilsons.  Whatever they are, that rifle was a hell of a bargain for $550 or so.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 20:43:51 (ZULU)

I have a Sig P229 in 9mm, does any one know if the P228 mags fit it, I know that they are pretty much the identical pistol, but I wanna make sure before I buy the mags

Thanks Hogs

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 21:45:23 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 21:45:44 (ZULU)

The .308 doesnt give a standoff distance to normal small arms fire???

I kinda think it does.  Remember we are talking distances that you can detect and see a human target.  Granted the .338 has a ballistic advantage over most current .308 match loads.  You guys used the 168 gr Norma load the last time I was up your way.  It dont zactly win the gunners choice award at 1000m but Im sure a 190 load or even the 175 gr m118 load would have been sufficient.  

I just see you guys being unhappy with the .338 over the long run.  Hope ya'll have a good supply of barrels and a good logistics system that can get them replaced BEFORE they start shooting out.  Its a bitch to be in country and have to lose a gun to be repaired.  Or what happens when the supply dudes cant get .338 ammo but that machine gunner has a shit load linked up?

Anyway, you guys have a good program and Im sure ya'll will make it work.  Gonna be fun shooting agaisnt the .338 at CFSAC though...damn!!

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:11:20 (ZULU)

My Jerry's Sport Center wholesale catalog shows 10 round P228/P229-9mm mags as the same.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:19:02 (ZULU)

I was pretty sure, but I was just checking. And on a lighter note, I'll be saddling up the TH-57 here in a few weeks, As Joe Mahon is fond of saying, ROTORS RULE!

Gooch.

What's the poop on the Designated Marksman jod that The Corps is working on. Not around the ground side any more, losing touch, just curious.

Later Hogs, dusting off the M1A because my USO scope id still not done

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:35:32 (ZULU)

What type of Badger rings would I want to get.  Do they make only one style for the Model 70 ?

I am looking at a Leupold 3.5-10 M3 LR for my choice in glass.

I already have a Harris bipod but plan on trying the shrink wrap mod for the springs.

Now for the stick itself...  

What recommedations would you suggest making to the rifle itself ?

Does the H-S stock need any extra tuning ?  

What is the average ideal poundage for trigger pull ?  

Can the Stealth trigger be adjusted by the owner ?

Does anyone have any experience with a Chandler rifle stock ?

I appreciate all the information and help you guys have passed my way in the past.   I am so glad I found this place!

Tim Duncan <tduncan1@midsouth.rr.com>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:40:34 (ZULU)

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 23:15:51 (ZULU)

I will start searching for Lito's instrutions for the Model 70 trigger adj. now!

Tim Duncan <tduncan1@midsouth.rr.com>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 23:39:00 (ZULU)

   I'm glad you finally found the rifle, who had it?  I plan on buying the Stealth in .223 that is over at Sportmans in Loveland.

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 23:50:04 (ZULU)

I had a cat by that name.   (No, I didn't shoot it, it was an indoor cat!  And a Goddamn good one!  My first "Ex" stole it!)

>"Can the Stealth trigger be adjusted by the owner ?"<

Go here:

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AdjustingWinTrigger.htm

For the trigger adjustments.  They are so easy that if you can't do them, you shouldn't be trusted putting bullets in your gun ;))

As to your other questions...

>"What is the average ideal poundage for trigger pull ?  "<

Most guys like around 2.5 to 3.5 pounds... the trigger will do much less than that, but don't over do it, unless you are skilled enough to use a light trigger... stay within 3# to 3.5#

>"Does the H-S stock need any extra tuning ?"<

Just check that the barrel isn't touching the stock (run a match cover between the barrel and stock, it should not bind).

The stock already comes glass bedded... it's not the "best" bedding job in the world, but it's pretty damn good (considering what the "other" company gives you - NADA).

I have three of these guns, and they all shoot "Outstandingly" out of the box.

One of our illustrious Rascalious Rosterfairians won his states 1000yd match with one right out of the box, and it only had the trigger adjusted... of course he shoots pretty good too (but he is dog ugly!)

We have had only one guy complain about his Stealth, and the factory said it should have never been shipped, and offered his money back, or a brand new Stealth... so he was cool.

You can re-do the glass bedding if you want, with something like Brownell's "Steel-Bed"... but you should really adjust the trigger and shoot the sucka firstus!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 00:27:56 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 01:08:29 (ZULU)

I hate to get on here and bitch, but you guys gotta here this one.

Some of you might remember me posting a couple of times complaining about waiting well over 3 years for my TBA to show up and again that it finally did show up and I wanted to sell it due to lack of interest.   Well there were no takers so after a few months now I figured I would shoot it and see what it can do.   Aimed and pulled the trigger-"click".   Pulled the round out and the primer was untouched.   Hmmm.   I put it back in, pulled the trigger again and "click".   Pulled it out, primer again untouched.   Broken firing pin I thought.   Unscrew it and the firing pin is fine, but I notice that the 'tang' of the cocking piece seems to be rather long.   So long that it is still engaging the slots down to the last threads.

So I screw it back together and de-cock it.   Hmmm.   Nothing sticking out of the firing pin hole.

So, my only conclusion at this time is that somehow maybe a LONG action cocking piece was installed on my bolt.   But I thought they would be the same length, long or short.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, this means that my rifle was not test fired for SAFETY, FUNCTION, or ACCURACY.   Safety being the most important of all.

No wonder the barrel was incredibly clean.

Here is my list of F-ups by Mike:

1. Barrel ordered says Hart 1:12, 6 groove,

  What I got-Shilen 1:10, 8 groove

2. Thumbscrews for adj. cheekpiece bottom against stock before    tightening up cheekpiece.   I fixed this myself with countersunk cap screws.

3. Rifle came with worthless stamped magazine follower, didn't feed right.   Replaced with nice one from Chandler.

4. Rifle was supposed to have iron sight mounts ala M24.   Nothing there.   I wonder where that $45 went.

5. Cocking piece mentioned above.

6. 39 month wait.

Who was that guy with the PSS from hell?   Christ I have the TBA from hell and I haven't even fired it yet.

What a piece of poo Mike turned out to be.

This post is also meant to be a warning to others that are thinking of going the TBA route.  

Thanks for reading

Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 01:47:42 (ZULU)

.408 - Needs work and not impressed right now.  Will let it go at that.

.338 Lapua - Specialty weapon and care needs to be taken as to it becoming a standard firearm for sniping.  We shoot about 1400 rounds during our course and there are courses that shoot more then we do.  Really hard on barrels.  We will shoot 80 to 125 rounds in a day, really hard on the shooter.  The problem, as I see it, and I have been wrong in the past, is that everyone sees the very occasional really long range shot, over 800 meters, and equates that as the norm.  It is not.  Drive around the boonies and look at the very few places that you can see over 450 to 600 meters and be amazed.  Even the desert has limits as to mirage problems, masking terrain, gullies, etc.  Trust me, it sucks when you touch off a round and find out that an enemy partol was setting about 500 meters away in a gully and you missed them.  Now you just touched off a round at a target you compute at 1200 meters, you probably missed, and you are lining up your second shot with correctin when the hounds of hell desend on you with an attitude problem.  Yep, been there done that.  It does suck.  User the 7.62 as it was intended and I can guarantee you that you can smoke a machine gunner at 700 to 800 meters while he is still trying to walk fire onto you.  Oh well just my opinion, I would also look at the 338 RUM since it is cheaper all around and it does not seem to lose enough ballistically to justify the higher cost of the Lapua.  Me thinks that Lapua will start to come down in price due to competition.

Oh well have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 02:25:22 (ZULU)

I emailed Kent on my limited understandings of why were are going that route (to the .338LM).  Currently we limit shooter/observer pairs to 50rds/day on the .338 and .50 - as there have been worries about detached retinas due to concusion (I have absolutely no medical beyond standard first aid - so I'll leave that to the experts)

AAR - we have spec'd a can for both the .338LM and .50 guns

I think the MRS in 5.56mm (SPR) will surplant the C3 for most roles as it is spec'd to Anti-Pers for 800m - and leaves the .338 for the 800-1200 for AP and the HTI role.

Our book values call for C7A1 fire to 300m - C3A1 to 600m.  So "in theory" this SPR type gun will give snipers an extra 200 standoff (yeah right).

Anyway I better get lost and enjoy my longer weekend :)

PS Editted due to spelling

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 02:40:05 (ZULU)

                             Get a Williams steel trigger guard from Brownells to go with the new hex-head action screws. Your floorplate w/base as delivered is already steel. Just a little cheap insurance for that 65 in.lb. action screw torque. And remember - always tighten front screw before rear (in stages) and just snug middle screw down until floorplate latches properly. Tapered Badger base, std. Badger rings good to go with scopes through 30mm tube, 40-something mm obj. diameter. Been there - done that - and it worked! Enjoy!!

Kevin (GWN), Gooch......

                          I think that Kevin has a point there about the possible use of the SPR up to maybe 800yds (keep your fingers crossed, operator). I only wonder if it wouldn't be wiser to employ the .300WM from wherever the SPR starts losing it, up through about 1200yds. and then go with the .50BMG out from there, bypassing the Lapua entirely? I regularly shoot my .300WM past 1,000 to 1,200yds. using the 190SMK,

without any recoil problems, and have thinking about going from its 1:10 H-S 10X (JR) barrel to a new Border (JR) barrel with maybe a 1:8 or 1:9 twist for the 220 or 240 SMK's when it's time has come. Logically, if the .308 can handle the 190SMK, why shouldn't the .300WM handle the 220SMK or more?

peteR.......

            How in the heck are you?

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 06:16:55 (ZULU)

   Here's a 190gr. 308 load.

       43.0gr. VN-140

       Lapua Brass

       Win LR (white box) primer

       Chronoed 10 rounds, 21 fps es, avg vel 2624 from 24" 10" twist hart. Shoots sub 1/2 moa elevations at 500 yards, much better in wind. Holds 3/4 moa for 10 shots at 500 (equals fed match 168's at same distance and # of rounds).

Standard disclamers apply. Milage may vary.

Bill Byford

Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
S. East, IL, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 07:15:44 (ZULU)

too many fat pigs in the shacks:(

Alan - keep in mind this is done in a worst case scenario - i.e the 7.62mm C3A1 (w/ Unertl) this gets shot to 600m in bad.

If you will go to a .300 - my thoguhts are you may as well go to the .338 as I do not see a great decrease in bbl life over the increase in range.

Under good conditions the .338LM can easily go to 1600 so a 1200m cbt range is not terribely yunrealistic - while the .300 does not give much past 1000.

I would still agree with Kent and Rick (humbly too:) that the 7.62 option is the best bet avail.....

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 08:38:32 (ZULU)

Great pictures... nice rifles as well. Showed me just what I needed to know. I probably should have known that George wouldn't ship or sell me somethin that wouldn't work. Its' got a 5R barrel, instead of the factory winnie, but I still think it'll be fine w/ the short rings. Me and a couple deputies will be at Pickett State park on the 23rd -27th for a harley weekend. Gonna try to make it to the match. Email me the details.

'lito,

Gonna try your trigger adj. as soon as I get the rifle from George. My guess is, it won't need adjustment. But thanks in advance for the article.

50 BMG and retina detachment...\

I've put up to 200 rounds in a day out of the 82A1. A little sore but didn't notice any vision problems. Eyes are checked pretty thoroughly on an annual basis, friend is an O.D. FWIW.

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'ton, IN, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 11:53:10 (ZULU)

The "detached retina" stuff is BS. I've shot over 500 rds of 50 bmg in a day puttin' guns on paper with no ill effect. The wife would disagree though. Turned around and put the same amount through more guns.

We are making a can now that you can use on the M82A1 without any hearing protection what so ever. We haven't tried it on the bolt guns yet.

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, US - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 14:54:14 (ZULU)

>".408 - Needs work and not impressed right now.  Will let it go at that."<

Jeez Rick, they must be keeping you out of the loop down there...

... according to the higher ups in the .408 project, the US military is just sitting on the edge of it's collective chair with baited breaths, waiting for the .408... so "they" say  ;>).

What happens when you build a new .408 mouse trap (for a lot of friggin' money), and the world doesn't beat a path to your door?

I heard through the grapevine, that Dean was down at the SF convention with his magical rifle, and shot 3" groups at 100 yards... hee, hee, hee.

I got some e-mails from the people at .408, giving me some flack, so I sent them about 2 pages of what is wrong with the project and why it won't float in the long run, and got back some of the weirdest stuff I have ever heard.

I think they are trying to pump life into a dead fish... and talk about funny ballistics they promote.  One of the heads of it says that when a rifle bullet crosses the speed of sound, it turns down 45 degrees, and heads smack into the ground... so I asked him how those guys in Scotland shoot .303s at 2400 yds, and and asked him if he has ever watched .30 cal MG tracers smoothly arc across the sky, and he said that tracers are different :)))  After that, I wouldn't believe anything they say about their magic boolets!

They got a hell of a crew over there.  Each has his own gold plated shovel.

-

ALAN...

The 10" twist will handle the 220 SMKs real well, and in a fast stick, might handle the 240s also.

-

Tony Dude...

Good to see you back.  Are you still with Barrett, or somewhere else.  I heard you got married, and left that area.

There are Rumors that there will be a Ft. Drum shoot this fall... Sept or Oct.  If it is a go, can you make it?  I owe you 2 steak dinners, and about 200 beers ;)).

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 15:24:24 (ZULU)

Got hitched and moved to Knoxville TN. Haven't been at Barrett for 2 months now. Just kickin' back taking it easy. Working on my own semi .50. Gas operated. It's been tried before, I know. But got lot's of time on my hands, and an understanding missus.

If Ft Drum is a go later this year I will be there.

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, US - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 17:23:54 (ZULU)

I got the following results in a Remington .308 bolt gun with Kreigher 1-10"

190 Sierra

39.6 Gr. Varget

Federal Case

Federal 210M

Gave me an average velocity of only 2361 fps and Standard Deviation of 14.  

190 Sierra

48.0 Gr. IMR4350

Federal Case

Federal 210M

Gave me an average velocity of 2503 and a Standard Deviation of 12.  

Tried the same with 48.2 gr of IMR4350(max in book). This gave me an average velocity of 2529 fps but Standard Deviation went to 30.

Load is accurate at 600 yard line.

Sarge

Try various powders (burning rates) in your gas gun.  Start with something faster that Varget.  My M1-A will not shoot Varget even at 200 yards.  It shoots H4895 and IMR4895 into a knot at that distance.  It is also a Kreigher 1-10"

These loads were safe in my rifles may not be in yours, use caution.

Jerry

Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 17:42:36 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 20:02:50 (ZULU)

Thanks

Tony - thanks - good to see you around again

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 20:04:09 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 21:37:51 (ZULU)

I'll send you copies of the e-mails.  It will bore the poopie out of the rest of these guys.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 23:01:12 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 03:52:09 (ZULU)

Thanks for the pointers on my new Stealth.  I have written them all down in my lil' black book...

I appreciate ANY suggestions from others about mods they have done to their Winchester Stealth rifles.  This is my first bolt gun and I am hooked already without even pulling the trigger on it !

Where an I look here for the proper way to "condition" my new barrel ?

I have seen alot of people talking about it but have not seen a definate step by step list of do's and dont's =)

Thanks  USMC_LB

Tim Duncan <tduncan1@midsouth.rr.com>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 04:30:46 (ZULU)

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002087

Tim:  Opinions on break-in vary.  Some do it and some don't.  With high end tubes it may not even be necessary.  Dan Lilja recommends it.  Gale MacMillan didn't.  I do it to factory tubes and my rifles clean up much quicker than factory tubes that aren't broken in.  My proceedure is:  Brush with shooter's choice until most black (powder fouling) is gone, patch of m.e.k. until shooter's is gone, patch with sweet's until green (copper) is gone, patch of m.e.k. until sweet's is gone, one patch of non-trick oil (the Hoppes in the orange bottle is nice), patch out, shoot a shot, repeat whole sequence ten times.  Do not let the shooter's and the sweet's mix in the bore or the chamber.  The story is that they combine to form some corrosive gunk that will do a real job on the metal.  That means that the chamber must also be cleaned between the solvents.  Then repeat the sequence shooting three shots until rifle cleans up easily.  Since this must be done at a range, and since the sweet's takes a while to work, take some other guns, a good book, a girl friend and a bucket of chicken.

The cleaning sequence above was shamelessly stolen from Bob Pease of Bob Pease Accuracy.  There are surely better ways to do this, but this works.  Especially the girl friend.

Believe it or not, I've done this to two Rugers.  (I don't want to hear it.)  Those suckers took a llooonnnggg time to smooth out, but smooth out they did.

Winchesters are vastly better to work with.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 04:32:21 (ZULU)

I took the time to break in my stealth.  It seems to work,, but after about 200 rounds it really smoothed out.  I may clean for the first 10, but wounldn't put oo much into the break in,, it'll break in when it's ready and not before.

As far as mods,, get the actions screws replaced with hex, bring your trigger down to 3.4 to 4 lbs and make sure everything is torqued to spec and shoot it.

When you get it all done, load up 40 winchester cases with 44.2gr Varegt, WLR primer, 175SMK and drive on out to Tullahoma the 25th and get your 1K dope.

You'll enjoy this rifle.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 11:24:30 (ZULU)

I agree w/ Chris, the break-in time is equal to cleaning time, it will happen one way or the other. My POS LTR only took about 20 rds. or so and I cleaned between every 5 shots to no copper until it was taking less than 3 patches w/ Sweets to come clean. But the barrel is only 20 inches long. I didn't try the chicken and bucket of girlfriends thing though. It was fun enough w/o gettin greasy or fishy.

Tony Dude,

Tell me more about the M82A1 can. Can you still see thru the scope or did they move the bipod out under the muzzle brake?

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 11:41:14 (ZULU)

Good to hear the final finish worked for you. It will probably make cleaning very easy for you too. My accuracy didn't really improve muce either but the other effects were good enough for me. Let me know what you think afetr your next range session.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 13:51:20 (ZULU)

The can adds about 14" to the end of the barrel. Bipod is still in the same place, just makes the front of the rifle a bit front heavy(imagine that).

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, US - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 13:51:27 (ZULU)

So,when I mount to the front of my remote controlled robot for the TV show the producers won't say it's to loud? I figure I'll win several times before they know what hit 'em. :))

Have they put a price and availability on 'em for NFA purchase or is it strictly a Mil. item? I bought the 82A1 directly from Murfreesboro. email details, if possible.

Thanx,

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 14:47:42 (ZULU)

Where was it you said the bubble level for anti-cant could be purchased?

Thanx,

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 14:54:49 (ZULU)

Sinclair International has them.

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 15:07:57 (ZULU)

Any opinions?

Thanks,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 17:49:27 (ZULU)

I see several results posted for a particular load and I'm curious if the same load produces a significantly different velocity when shot over a different chronograph under the same conditions.

Old Ironsights <scsmith@micron.com>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 21:04:00 (ZULU)

190's in 308.  I use 42.0 of IMR 4064.  No idea what it clocks, but it's safe for use in gas guns.  Might be better to go to a slower powder for bolt guns and get faster velocity.  

308 Winchester.  While it's not the best caliber for LR shooting, it's what the lazy logistics pukes can support within their twisted totally archaic supply system, and that not very often.  I'd much prefer something like the 6.5-08 or better still the 7mm-08 shooting the 162gn A-max.  Better ballistics, better terminal performance and equal barrel life.  In my perfect world, I'd use the 284 Winchester(no, not the 6.5 version) in a Winchester action loaded long as the box allows with a 25" barrel with suppressor.  The troops would keep large stocks of ammo at the unit, to be used for training(shooting matches, etc) and to haul off to war and the guns would be rebarreled by civvie gunsmithes off an approved list.  Contracts would be good enough that it would encourage fast high quality service.  The JAG would come down hard on fraudulent non-performers.  Units would deploy with a case(1k) of ammo per rifle in their basic deployment load Conex boxes.  Ammo running out would only be a problem in long term commitments and by the time you start running out, the supply dickheads should have been able to get you the ammo even with their F'd up system.  The Army is sending many tons of AFFES PX crap to A-stan, do you mean to tell me that they can't get a couple cases of ammo there?  Please.

 I'd stop treating rifles like they are nuclear weapons and start holding the troops accountable for their stuff.  It's your rifle, you screw it up, you buy it!  Instead of docking the troop's pay, where the money goes off to some hole and the unit gets F'd, the troop pays the S-4 section the value of the rifle and the S-4 buys a new one to replace the one the troop cocked up.  And that's another thing.  I'd allow the troop to buy their rifle when they get out.  I figure that maybe 25% would take advantage of this.  The money would go towards buying BRAND NEW rifles.  What a concept, preplanned replacement of stuff that wears out.  Amazing.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M              

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 22:08:32 (ZULU)

There is more to differ in load testing than just chronos. Two different rifles can use the exact same load and get different results. It's more the rifle than the chrono with the different results. Smoother custom barrels will run faster than rough factory barrels as a rule. Also barrel length will have an effect. My 24" custom barrel will shoot faster, with the same ammo, as my buddy's 26" 700P. That's why it's best to do your own testing with the loads and just use the other numbers as a loose guideline. Always working up to others loads.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 23:22:14 (ZULU)

Be safe.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 23:49:29 (ZULU)

I know different rifles produce different velocities, I'm talking about the same rifle/load shooting over two different chronographs.  I'd like to know if they are close or if there is a significant difference.

Old Ironsights <scsmith@micron.com>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 02:45:58 (ZULU)

           Never tried same rifle/load - two different chronograph experiment, but...... I use the Oehler 35P which uses three screens and compares velocity between #1 &#2 with the velocity between #2 & #3comparing the two velocities and tossing out the reading if the numbers differ. Using the two seperate channels is about as close as the average poor shooter is going to come to checking chrono accuracy, unless you have two chronographs, place them one ahead of the other (but very close) and then compare readings after allowing for slight difference in distance to muzzle between first and second chronographs

           In the real world, nobody bothers because of the availibility of the 35P! It does it for you.

HTH,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 03:50:53 (ZULU)

Bill - thanks for the info on the action.

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 04:53:57 (ZULU)

Digging through the roster for a .308 load that matches the M3LR's 30-06 BDC cam, you're bound to find the much loved and often quoted recipe of 175gr SMK, 44gr Varget, Lapua brass, 210M primers, with a suggested velocity anywhere from 2675 to 2700 fps.

So, I loaded up some match-prepped Lapua brass with said primers, and said bullet, but with varying levels of hand weighed (to the kernel) Varget (what a pain in the arse!).  I loaded ten rounds each at 43.8gr, 44.0gr, 44.2gr, and 44.4gr.  I did this because I had no idea which load would produce, through my stick (700PSS w/stock barrel), the target velocity to match the BDC cam, nor which would produce the best groups.

As an aside, the Dillon measure doesn't work for sh*t when measuring Varget, which is why I hand measured all the loads, adding and subtracting kernels with a tweezers.

I fired five rounds each over a brand new CED Chrono at 100 yards, with the chrono 10 feet from the muzzle, just to get average, spread, and standard deviation.  I then fired five rounds each off a bench at 200 yards to get group sizes.

None of the loads produced the desired velocity, or were even close.

Grains  Velocity  Spread  S.D.

43.8    2617.8    35      14.2  

44.0    2620.2    29      11.6

44.2    2633.8    13      5.4

44.4    2647.0    18      7.0

For reference, here's the numbers from 175 grain Gold Metal Match.

GMM     2648.4    25      9

I'd include the group sizes, but I can't find the targets at the moment.  The 44.2 load produced a half MOA five-shot group, though I can't say as much about the other loads.

Anyway, I was bummed because I was nowhere near the suggested 2675 to 2700 fps necessary to match the BDC.  I graphed the numbers in Excel just to get a guestimate of how many grains of Varget I'd need to reach those velocities.  According to the graph, 45.0gr should yield 2690fps (which matches the Hodgdon data exactly), and 45.15 should yield 2700fps (which is over the Maximum load).

Just for grins, I ran my 44.2gr load results through JBM's on-line ballistic calculator, and at 2633.8fps, using a 175gr SMK, at my elevation with typical local summer time weather, the bullet drop matches my M3LR BDC to within 0.5 MOA all the way out to 1000 yards.

I haven't yet doped the 44.2gr load at the range to confirm that it tracks the BDC, like JBM suggests it will, but I have to wonder why my loads are so slow compared to others, yet my load - according to JBM - will track my BDC almost perfectly.  Which makes me wonder if, given that 44gr of Varget is supposed to track the BDC according to long-established Roster Wisdom, some Roster Hogs have fast reading chronos, but really good range dope.

Which is what makes me curious about chronos, as Old Ironsights is.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 06:58:19 (ZULU)

Shame on you...

... you should know that a given weight of powder and given bullet ISN'T going to give the same velocity in all rifles... there is a TREMENDOUS variation in the muzzle velocities of rifles, with the same load.  Chrono's very in readings almost not at all, rifles vary a hell of a lot.

The fact that your book says that xx grains ABC powder gave 3,000 fps out of a 24" barrel, doesn't mean that if you load the same load, you will get the same velocity out of your 24" barrel.  Your velocity may vary by as much as 100 fps!!

Some years back, I got hold of all the .308 riffles I could lay my hands on, and picked up a bunch of Fed GM-1 of the same lot number.

I clocked 10 rounds out of each of them, and the velocity spread was around 145 fps (2570 to 2715)... and the spread was NOT a result of barrel lengths... the longest and the shortest barrels (2@27.5" and 2@24", all 4 were premimum, custom barrels) were the fastest, the middle length (26") were the slowest (2 Rem PSS's).

>"According to the graph, 45.0gr should yield 2690fps"<

45 gr of Verget is a safe load, so go ahead and try it.  It MAY BE over max in your book, but not be over max in another book.

You guys would be amazed at how "un-scientific" the process is, for determining max loads... just like the variation in velocities, the variation in pressures of a given load in various rifles is enough to make you question the whole system.

Guys, these books are "guides", and nothing more... you have to use your smarts and your loading skills, and ability to read pressure signs.

If you get a copy of all the loading manuals (I have)... you will be amazed at the variation in "max loads"... one book will say 33 gr is max (with a warning to NEVER EXCEED THIS LOAD), and another book will say that 36 gr is fine... "WTF?".

This variation comes about from the way the loads are developed, and the variation in equipment used at each company.

So don't expect these loads to be "Gods" formulas... they vary in muzzle velocity, and chamber pressure in different rifles.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 10:21:28 (ZULU)

Thanks !

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 11:04:57 (ZULU)

I run 45gr Varget in a Lapua case/210M primer/175SMK in my 26" stealth. NO pressure.  VERY minor crater on the pin mark.  It run about 2700, give or take 15 fps.  I know that it's not supposed to make a HUGE diffrence, but that load at 75 degree will go right that little 10 says it will at 1K.  At 97, it needed almost 3 moa less.  My father was shooting my rifle last match and only needed 35moa to 1K.

Nighforce scopes:

Any of you hawgs do a track test on your 3.5x15x50 NXS's?  I have one that's doing some strange stuff.  First 6 moa gives me 7.5" at 100 yards in both directions, second 6 gives me 6".  It's repeatable,, but that's seems like a pretty big deviation from the norm.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 11:14:21 (ZULU)

I shot the heck out of the Imbel this weekend and had a ball.  I have a small issue with the trigger and would like to have it taken care of.  Do any of you know a good FN/FAL plumber???

Ref: Loads to Track a BDC

FWIW my loads of 44.2 grains of Varget push a 175MK at just 2,675 and track my M3LR 30.06 dial nicely.  Past 600 yards it's a give or take a minute thing depending on weather and elevation but it's close enough for government work.

Ref: The 'ol Ticker

I'm feeling better every day.  It's taking some time but I'll keep working on it.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 11:42:01 (ZULU)

This site is similar to alot of others, but generally relates to FN/FAL rifles and gear. If nothin else someone on the board may know of one near you.

Glad you're feelin better!!

John

http://www.falfiles.com

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:05:57 (ZULU)

sorry for the mix up but it seems someone else should have read my post, Michael. ;) I have tried my rifle across two different chronos, a Chrony Beta and a PACT, with the same load and found them within a few fps of each other. Not enought to worry about.

Michael,

That 44.2 grns, as well as same exact components, that get's you 2633fps out of your 26" factory barrel will get me 2730 out of my 24" Lothar Walther barrel and it will get others differnet readings in thiers because of the barrel differences. Just the nature of the beast. If you have a hard cleaning barrel that's not giving good velocities might I sugest you look at some Tubb's Final Finish for the barrel. Click on my name for the article on it. I got about an extra 60fps from the same load in my 300WM when I tried it and it made it much easier to clean. Accuracy stayed about the same. Just an idea if you didn't want to push it to max even though max is safe in most rifles.

You're other option is to just remark the M3 LR dials. I do it by taping off the lower MOA markings and numbers 0, 5,10,15 etc and paint over the whole upper section with a light paint, I use Krylon tan camo, including the yard markings of 1,2,3 etc. Then I go back with a fine sharpie and mark where my rifle hits above the MOA marks with new yard marks. Much easier than chasing the chrono and settling on a load that gives you good velocities but isn't quite as accurate as your other load which won't track. Once I find an accurate load that is giving me around the velocities I wanted, nopt especially for the dial but to keep it supersonic at 1000 yards, I will mark the dial. I also tried other Varget loads like you did from 43-44.5 and found the 44.2 gave me the best accuracy but was a little faster than I wanted. Oh well, I kept it and just remarked the dial. They send you 4 dials with the scope so no need to buy more and all have the same MOA markings but have different yard markings so if you remark them as I described you can use all four for different loads of different temps like one for 70 degrees + and one for 40 degrees -. Just ideas.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:14:39 (ZULU)

I already knew that.  Which is why I weighed out four different loads, to find which load would give me the desired velocity for my particular rifle, with that particular lot of Varget, that particular lot of 210M primers, with match prepped and weight sorted Lapua brass.

But that's understood.  I wasn't trying to proove or disproove the Roster recipe - I was trying to match it's outcome so that I'd have a load for my rifle that'd track the BDC.

What interests me is that some Roster Hogs have loads they found track the BDC (44.0 grains of Varget), and they've chronoed those loads at 2675 to 2700 fps.

The Roster recipe calls for 44.0 grains of Varget, which is spectacularilly close to the 44.2 grain load I chronoed and then ran through a ballistic calculator which tracks the BDC remarkably well - on paper.

I'm suggesting the recipe is correct - I just needed 0.2 grains of extra juice for the factory tube on my rifle, which is no great surprise.

You and I have basically the exact same load, which you've found experimentally to match the BDC, and I've found theoretically to match the BDC.  The only significant difference is the velocity as reported by our respective chronos - therein lies the controversy I'm curious about.

If I knew someone nearby with an Oehler, I'd be interested in setting the Oehler side by side with my CED, and fire a string through both sets of skyscreens at the same time, just to see how close the numbers are between the two.  And, I need to dope out the drop for that 44.2 grain load at various distances.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:30:52 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:32:51 (ZULU)

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002091

Note how the Chicken Choker in Chief's decision to free all our prisoners and run like a whipped cur gave Osama ben Dover reason to believe that he could safely exterminate Americans as if we were flies.

Policy advisors increasingly see Saudi Arabia as an enemy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:52:20 (ZULU)

KMussack....good to hear your doing better....I'm now able to walk upright again....drugs and PT are wonderful.....

Can't wait for ASC'03.....

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginny, USofA...... - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:52:24 (ZULU)

  I want to thank all of you DR guys who have been so busy sending me e.mails. I didn't know I was so popular.(HA) It must be my turn on the list with our little prick friends out there.

Ironsights,

  I have also shot a couple of guns across two different cronographs and I have also found there was not that much difference between the two to even say there was. You will see about as much variation as you will with the same load shot the next time over the same cronograph.

Ken..

  Sounds like your Camp Perry shoot went as well as my sons. He said he had some mechanical malfunctions and a couple of brain farts thrown in for good measure.(HA)

Rick..

 Have to agree with you on the .338s they are hard on barrels and people alike. I wore out two 300WMs in two years of shooting and was never bothered by recoil but I know that if I shot it then like I shoot now (laying straight behind the gun) It would pound the hell out of my collar bone and I am sure that would make me wine.

 You and I both know a lot of people are bothered even by the 308s recoil and a 338 would really make them gun shy. I think they need to stay with the 308s for a issue sniper rifle for the reasons stated by both you and Gooch. I feel that for Special Ops thats a different ball game and they should have 338s or 50s because the role is somewhat different. Just my thoughts anyway.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 13:54:11 (ZULU)

On reloading watch for loads from other weapons.  Different chambers/bbls do different things and you may have a load thats fine in a factory sloppy chamber but too hot in a nice custom piece.

All right give up the secerts whats the hot ticket for shooting 77's in as short a M16 tube as possible?  I mean a field weapon not a target gun.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 16:36:02 (ZULU)

bill rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 18:05:53 (ZULU)

Gut-wrenching... how could those kids come home from that and function? (rhetorical...don't answer)

Some technical questions (if not classified and no concern over answering in an open forum exists)...

Would Bradleys have helped? Can the APC's armor take a broad-side hit from the type(s) of RPG used in this situation?  Would the cannon provide any improvement in performance over the M2s used in this tight setting?

The movie shows what looked like a recoiless rifle being used... they showed the Delta guys load what looked like an old bazooka round into the breach... I thought recoiless rounds looked like an arty shell with holes drilled in the casing?  Was this a technical flub or is this some type of old hybrid weapon?

The movie did not seem to play on the issue of 5.56 not functioning as a man stopper in Somolia (as I have heard in many, many anecdotal, >third hand accounts of the situation) .. I had expected this to be "over-played"...what's the deal?

The medical scenes seemed fairly valid.

Is there a fund setup for the widows and children associated with the engagement?

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 18:24:20 (ZULU)

 REF: 1st Deer Riffle for my boy:

 I settled on the Remmy model seven youth in .243.  Some of you may think it ain't enough for whitetail--but I considered all things and I am satisfied it will workie well (he ain't gonna be alone in that blind).  I looked at the savage 10GY, but the safety was rather stout for young hands to operate.  The winnies don't have the iron sights I wanted unless I special order one, and the remmy really fit the little guy.  So model seven it is!  The schnabel fore-end can go, but otherwise a nice little stick for a first real riffle.

 More debate on the quarter mile sniper?  Rick reiterated what I said before a while back---the world wasn't designed for fields of fire.  Where the world offers incredible fields of fire--well, the bad guys don't march around in places like that.  We need a versatile round, one capable of accuracy out to and maybe beyond 800 meters, useful on people, not too hard on the barrel, availablity must be absolute---hey wait!  We already got this now don't we?  A better mousetrap will come along sooner or later.  The only thing I can guarantee is this new round will not have a powder column the size of a bass boat or recoil anywhere near a 60mm mortar!  The one-off mission that may present itself rarely is no reason to equip the entire force with an "over-the-horizon" capable, flat shootin', barrel-eating maintenance nightmare.  At some point we stop calling them snipers and start callin' them forward observers!!!!  The few with the need for specialization are all over it.  The vast majority have the tool of choice in hand.  The 308 workie well for wide range of conditions!

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Eau Claire, WI, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 19:13:16 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47871-2002Aug5.html

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 19:32:35 (ZULU)

in Somolia (as I have heard in many, many anecdotal, >third hand accounts of the

situation) .. I had expected this to be "over-played"...what's the deal?

Jim go to the following URL to see a page by page analysis of mentions of 5.56, 7.62 usage and wounding/killing in BHD.

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/bhdweaponreferences.msnw

Delta Sgt. Howe is the only guy who complained about 5.56 inadequacy. What barrel length was he using is a very valid question when it comes to the usefulness of the M16.  11 inch barrels don't cut it outside of very CQB.

Check it out.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 20:09:19 (ZULU)

I just got done talking to Gene at Cypress creek. I had to confirm some stuff regarding the Tac med course. Seems while we were discussing folks we knew he used the term "Coonass," in conjunction with a few other unfamiliar phrases when your name came up.

Now me being from NY and all I can only guess at the real meaning behind "Coonass" (must be some secret squirl talk you southern boys use) but when he stopped his rant I kind of felt he actually likes you. Hmm!

I failed to mention the descriptives you gave me so I would recognize him when he picked me up at the airport. I'll fill him in in sept when I get there.

HA!

Mark

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
NY, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 20:19:59 (ZULU)

Oh mang.  Look at the rifles some of these places are using for their reloading manuals, dudes.  Many are using sporting rifles off the Wal-mart rack, if that.  Why?  Because a lot of places don’t have the red tape most of the ammo making companies have.  Ammo making companies usually have to check the pressures of their lots of ammunition, and they do this by buying very expensive ballistic test barrels whose every tolerance is checked to the nth degree to ensure that the piezo readings are accurate, so then they can hold their pressures within a certain range from lot to lot, then check the velocities of that lot, then check the accuracy of that lot.  3 types of test barrels: pressure, velocity, and accuracy barrels.  All are held to a standard set by SAAMI or CIP for safety reasons, but this works in the favor of the shooter, cuz he knows they are using SAAMI chambers and SAAMI bore dimensions, so they give more accurate results.  Now, I’m not saying factory ammo is better in any sense, but the results given in the manuals, expecially the powder manufacturers such as Hodgdon and VV, are more accurate or realistic because these readings are taken in a completely controlled environment, with barrels whose every dimension has been taken into account.   I don’t get  excited if I see in the corner of the page they used a Universal Receiver for their results, cuz I know those barrels, it irks me when I see ‘Ruger No. 1’, or ‘M700’, cuz I just don’t have a clue where that meets up with my stuff.  But any manual you decide to use, you’re still going to have to find the limitations of YOUR barrel, and go from there.

‘lito, that’s why I’d like to see a trend towards checking the pressures of their loads as you are checking the velocities, and manuals adhering to the same and listing said pressures with each load along with velocity, so you CAN get a good comparison, it is more of a true test.  No, I ain’t tryin to sell nothin’, but if I do use a P-Max in the future, I intend to log the peak pressures along with the chrony readings.

later  

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 20:54:47 (ZULU)

Medic Jim:  Field command (Downing and Garrison?) requested Bradley's and AC-130s.  Powell, Christopher, Aspin, and, ultimately, Clinton overruled the request as "provocative".  We'll have to assume that those professional soldiers knew what equipment they needed.  Speaking for myself, I'd sure rather sit in a BFV and take small arms fire than sit in a Hum-V.  A RPG amidships would be another matter entirely, but a broad side hit would be difficult.  The vehicle is not exposed for that long and vehicles in convoy cover each other.  A hit made at an acute angle has a good probability of ricocheting off.  It's no Fourth of July parade, but it beats the shit out of riding around in convertibles.  And an AC-130 overhead would be no small protection to the convoy.  You don't shoot them down with Jerry-rigged RPGs as they did the Black Hawks and they are FIERCELY dangerous.

Joe Mahon:  A .243 is not a deer rifle.  A .260 is.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 21:21:55 (ZULU)

Brads with the addition of stand off plates to detonate the RPG's early would have very little problem vs the old model RPG's in use by the Sammies.  You might still get an occasional penetration, but with the addition of spall liners it would only kill people in the direct line of the shaped charge jet.  Ammo hits would still be bad, but that's life.  25mm cannon is much more effective than 50caliber and you can employ it in relative safety from small arms fire inside the Brad.

>>>>The movie shows what looked like a recoiless rifle being used... they showed the Delta guys load what looked like an old bazooka round into the breach... I thought recoiless rounds looked like an arty shell with holes drilled in the casing?  Was this a technical flub or is this some type of old hybrid weapon?<<<<

This was a SPG-9, uses the same 73mm ammo as the low velocity cannon on the BMP-1.  It uses a base with a little propellant to kick the round out of the barrel where the rocket motor ignites and boosts it up to a higher velocity.  In actuality, it carries less explosive than the RPG-7 warhead in the HEAT varient.  They do make a HE version for general support, but odds are that the Sammies would not have had them.

IMO, creeping about the jungle hunting other snipers is not a primary mission for the near future.  Hence the love for stalking in SS school seems like time misplaced to me.  But the schools like it because it is easy to grade objectively.  Using terrain is using terrain, but the desert is different than the woods is different than the dog fennel of Camp Pen.  I see much more use of snipers as a supporting arm like the Canucks in A-stan.  "This is Charlie 6 Alpha, we're taking MG fire from Hill 2255."  The snipers head over in a reasonably stealthy Ranger column using the terrain and engage the BG's from long range.  It's really DM work, but since we haven't fielded DM type assests, the snipers will have to take up the slack.  Hence the need for a slightly longer ranged rifle.  A 338 is better than the 50caliber IMO because it's easier to haul.  You could continue to use the 308, sure, but better is better.  And the need for laser range finders is absolute.  Non-fielding is unacceptable.  Any military snipers out there spend time on the AN/GVS-5?  How much?  Semper Fidelis...Ken M            

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:02:38 (ZULU)

I use a 243 for whitetail.(1972 Rem 788 with 21" factory barrel) The rifle was my fathers before it was mine.  He took 6 or 7 deer with this rifle (and about 200 woodchuck) and I've taken one.  None were lost.  If you use a ballistic tip inside 100 yards the results are devastating.  Out past that, a more solid bullet works good.  He always had very good results with the factory 103gr Winchester soft points for deer, and the 90gr Ballistic tip over 33gr Varget worked too well last season.  They don't go down like Texans like them to (I can already hear the incoming) but they go down.

I am real interested in the 260 also.  I figure the 6.5x284 will be shot out by the end of next season. I plan on pulling the tube, cutting off the chamber plus an 1" of so (maybe 20"), chambering to 260rem and mating it to a Winch action for a hunting rifle.  It would seem to have the advantage over the 243,, but the 243 isn't too little gun IMHO.

I'm sure yur Kiddo will love it,

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:17:19 (ZULU)

In your DM scenario, I think the 50 BMG would be the better choice, due to the variety of munitions... Match, plus AP, Incendary, Roufus, etc... plus nearly double the range.

I love my AN/GVS-5, but... the AN/GVS-5 is really great against third world trash like the cave rats in the 'stan... but against enemies with fairly technlogical forces, you will get returning fire real fast... maybe before you even get off your first shot.

With all the active stuff in the field, I think it's getting time for a return to a really good optical rangefinder, made of carbon fiber and all that space stuff... two feet long, three pounds, and pure stealth good for 4000 to 6000 yds/mtrs.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:31:25 (ZULU)

Coonass is not so sensitive a term any more.  In fact, we're pretty proud of it now.  

But, with the old school Cajun women (i.e. my Maw Maw Boutte - Boo-tay), you had better be one yourself and she better know that you are one yourself before you call her a Coonass.

Otherwise, the response will be in chaingun French accompanied by a broom swung at head level.

Watch your sixes mon ami (my friends),

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:39:18 (ZULU)

have you ever considered a sandstrom finish for the bolt?  it's fairly durable and dull

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:39:30 (ZULU)

You sent any rounds down range there yet??

Brian,

We got a guy from Lousyanna,, I'd have to say he'd qualify as a coon ass. And another from LA that we call coonass.  Maybe he's a transplant (does your truck smellin' like rotten chicken livers and catfish count?)  I figured it was a backwood red neck thing but what would I know,, I'm a (GULP) Yankee livin' in the south....

'Lito,

..but ya can't burn a mans eyes out with that....  Well,, maybe the users.. ;))  Is is possible to make a optical that small and still accurate?  The only trouble I'd see is Joe shoving it down the side of his ruck and when he does the "rucksack flop", or they cut slingload,, das ist alas...

Mid-South Shooters....

I'm looking to set up a 4 gun match end of this year or early next year.  I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of:

Pistol:  Pop up range to 25 yards, 25 shots

Carbine: Pop up range to 300 meters, 40 shots

Shotgun: I'd need help here,,TBD

Rifle:   No sighters, 10 shots from 400, 500 and 600 yards

Aggragate wins with winners in each catagory.  If I can get enough interest in this we'll do it.  Last year they had 8 guys show up.

Also,, I'm looking at putting together a "Mini-Palma" for F class and "Any Rifle" shooters.  20 shots each at 500, 600 and 1000 yards, with sighters.  After 600 we'd break and grill us up some road kill,, no wait,,, (we're not in Alabama),, Burgers, hotdogs,, whatever, then shoot 1K in the afternoon.  Anyone in or close to TN that thinks thay may be interested in attending something like this let me know.  

I don't figure match fees for either will be much over our standard $10.

FatBoy...

(editted to remove Lousyanna from a second insult, substituted the next best thing ;))

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:54:30 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 23:17:10 (ZULU)

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 23:22:53 (ZULU)

Brian all I was saying was Gene said to say hi. Yikes on the cultural lesson plan. I'll be certain to keep my yankee mouth trimmed up tight around yer "Maw." God knows I don't want a broom handle up side my head.

Anyways, Gene says you some good people.

Be safe

Semper Primus.

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
NY, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 23:30:36 (ZULU)

Ref: BHD

A potential "Little Bighorn Event".  It could have been much worse.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:02:30 (ZULU)

Well, I'd say the 50cal adds another 500m of range at the cost of being a serious MF to hump about(1500m vice 2000m).  The 50cal has the hard target kill capability down hard, but killing armored vehicles with a sniper team is really for the arty, CAS and occasionally mortars(especially 120's)  The Objective SWS in 25mm based on the Barret looks mildly interesting(click on my name) but again it's heavy and long.  

>>>>I love my AN/GVS-5, but... the AN/GVS-5 is really great against third world trash like the cave rats in the 'stan... but against enemies with fairly technlogical forces, you will get returning fire real fast... maybe before you even get off your first shot.<<<<<

Negative, most of the targets we engage are not equiped with laser detectors and then it's simple enough to just do an offset range.  Only AFV's have laser detectors and even then it's only going to give you a cardinal direction.  It's not like the crew has a head up display that carats the source like on a fighter plane.  Besides, they don't know whether the laser is from a tank, a FO, a plane or some Darkstar UAV at 60K ft AGL.  Yeah, you can see some lasers with NVG's but then you just don't use the laser at night OR you switch wavelengthes and then the assholes don't know it's coming.  Normal EW stuff.  But that would presume a procurment system that gives a damn about infantry and that doesn't exist.

>>>>With all the active stuff in the field, I think it's getting time for a return to a really good optical rangefinder, made of carbon fiber and all that space stuff... two feet long, three pounds, and pure stealth good for 4000 to 6000 yds/mtrs.<<<<

I agree.  If they make one, I'll lobby for adopting it.  But right now things are looking grim.  The scheisskopfs at MARFORSYSCOM canced the can on the M40A3 and that was the best part of that heavy pig.  It may come back in the future, but who gives a damn if it's after the war.  A sense of urgency, people!  Hopefully the war's coming soon, before it takes 20kt in downtown NY or DC to make the point.  Then again, maybe that would be better in the long term.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:21:03 (ZULU)

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/reference/frank/

Kimbershooter <ricki@i-c.net>
Disputanta, Va., - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:46:27 (ZULU)

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:55:22 (ZULU)

  I sent you an e-mail about your proposed match. It's genuine and doesn't contain an attachment.

              LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:59:00 (ZULU)

Now on the laser range finder, not the threat that is percieved by so many.  Most laser detectors only state that a laser has been fired i their area, NOT where it came from.  I would not worry about lasing a target area as I know enough to stay away from eletro-optical devices, armoured vehicles, and the like.  Trees, rocks, dirt mounds, etc do not have detectors attached.  In order to work laser range finders fire a fairly narrow beam that would have to be aimed fairly closely to the detectot to be detected.  I would worry more about having to expose myself to get a clean line of sight for the laser to work in the first place.  As far as training, lasers are point and shoot.  The amount of training needed for them is minimal while the old techniques that do not need batteries need training so you have rangeing capability when the batteries go dead.  Quicky question, what are the yellow and red filters for on the GVS-5?  Answer later if ot known.  That is important to the sniper with opitcs, hint hint.

Catchunker - How did I know that you would go optical with the 88mm anti aircraft range finder used so effectively during WWII?  My problem with those items is that they are fairly fragile and easily knocked out of alignement and now I have a hollow 3 foot club.  I do agree that half the time that the guys deploy with a .50 they could have used a M2 instead and had some real fire power.  Or used the 60mm mortar and then really blown the crap out of the target.  But hey, the 50 Barrett is so... so... I don't know, heavy semi M2?

Stalking is an exercise, regardless of terrain, that teaches the sniper to move with care, stealth and patience.  Terrain is unimportant, the exercise is not an exercise for the sake of an exercise that is objective.  It is an exercise in movement, route selection, patience, and learning the importance of moving with head NOT firmly planted up fourth point of contact.  Sorry Ken but I will never agree with your assessmetn of the stalk.  Even in an urban scenario, the student learns form the rural stalk, this has been brought out to me by students over the years.  Now if the stalk is ran just for the sake of poping a student then the stalk is being ran wrong and the instructors need to be taught how to properly run a stalk.

AC-130s and BFVs were needed and would have made a very big difference in the Mog, but they were turned down by the National Command Authority, which included Powell.  Garrison was the one doing the asking.  So instead of looking like we were ready for a fight we let guys die so we didn't look so provacative.  I hope we have learned that bad guys only understand strength and not the liberal hogwash of "playing nice".  Sorry lost it there for a minute.

5.56 not a man stopper, get shot by one and see.  I have seen guys claim that tey shot a guy five times before he went down but we could only find one hole.  nuff said.

Pat - Agree and we have .338s for special purposes but not as a regular weapon.

Rifles and pistols - Pistol a handy item to fight your way to a real weapon the rifle or shotgun.  Kinda like vegetarian, old indian word for lousy hunter.

Well enough for now and will await incoming.

Hold Hard Guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 01:29:30 (ZULU)

In fact, I was thinking earlier today that the DR has sure been running smooth with nobody pissed or with their feelings hurt.  I kind of like it that way.  That heart on the sleeve shit gets monotonous.

No culutural stuff here buddy.  I am a notorius kidder and can damn sure laugh at myself.  Sorry if my post came out preachy or like I took it wrong.  Just thought I'd give the Coonasses a plug.  I KNOW that I am Coonass white trash. he hee !

That said, did Gene get you all lined out ?  You should have a good time.  I am not an EMT guy but we are currently integrating them into our team now.  

I have a good friend, Terry Myrick, cardiovascular surgeon, ex-marine medic, helluva shot, has more sniper rifles than Quantico.  Rich bastard.

He was going to join us but his regular call load is way too heavy as it is without the addition of a SWAT pager.  Sure wish he could hang with us.  Nothing like a cardiovascular surgeon around when you need one.

It is a needed thing TEMS.

Your friend,

the Coonass !

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 02:22:51 (ZULU)

I guess I mis-stated myself in regards to stalking.  It seems to me that everybody gets all fixated on stalking, much the same way that the USMC gets fixated on COD in boot camp and useless uniform crap on the supposed BST test.  Stalking is a useful skill in much the same way that COD is useful or knowing how to wear the uniform is useful.  But it's not the end all, be all that a lot of people NOT in the sniper community seem to think it is.  And I'm absolutely NOT talking about you, Rick, I'm talking about that Wash Post article in particular, but a trend I see in general.  Everybody seems to think that snipers take their ghillies to bed with them instead of some ugly drunk chick you found at the local dive.  I don't and I don't know anyone who does.  At best, guys take a veil because the ghillie is normally just a giant, heavy, hot sweaty torch waiting to happen.  Stalking is good for the route selection and terrain usage skills it teaches, but it's just one skill among many.  And IMO, it's a skill that is not currently most in demand.  That's not a reason to let it go to scheiss, as has happened in the past, but it means that you need to focus on things that are more likely to get used.  IMO shooting, in particular, is being neglected.  Why?  Because getting range time and ammo is hard.  A lot of snipers I see think they are good shots because they have been to the school and because they get off maybe 200-400 rds in a year.  I hate to tell them, but I get off about 3000 rds a year and I ain't good enough, so what's that make them?  I don't know about other services courses, but in USMC sniper school you fire about 800-900 rds, which gives you a good feel for that particular range and makes you a reasonably skilled person for a while.  But those skills go away in a hurry, doping wind particularly, and it isn't something that's going to come back in a hurry either.  Why do you think that I advocate a better wind bucking, flatter shooting cartridge as opposed to the 308?  Because I know that most of these guys don't get the training that they ought to, and that other rounds are more forgiving of ranging and wind errors than the 308.  I just got back from watching most of the best teams in the nation blow their wind calls during the NTIT at 600 yds.  It was only a 6-8 mph full value wind and a lot of these guys blew it out their ass after having several tens of minutes and a bunch of gear to make the call.  What makes you think some 22 YO Cpl with less than 2 years shooting experience is going to do better?  

As for LOS considerations, next week I'm setting up on a hill overlooking a MOUT facility in Camp Pen, I'll let everyone know how far I can reach out to.  Obviously situation will dictate, but I hate limiting myself to something that works "most of the time" when there isn't a particularly good reason for it.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M              

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 03:08:59 (ZULU)

http://www.sandstromproducts.com/

Which of these products do I want and where can I buy a small amount of it?

TIA

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 03:38:52 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 04:14:27 (ZULU)

 Here's the devil's advocate in me rising to the occassion:

 If our school-trained snipers are going home and maintaining with 400 rounds a year---why would you want a more expensive round to play with?  One thing I've learned is if you have two toys costing x dollars, you will only get one toy costing 2x dollars in exchange!  So, if training is lacking with those cheap lil' .308s--imagine how much more shooting you are going to do with a 338LM or some other state-of-the-art boolit.  LEO is quite different, but military is what it is:  Big, expensive and as uniform as it can be (to cut those expenses).  And (mygawd--I can't believe I'm going here) training is always defaulted to "good enough."  Dollars again.  This is why SOF is held separately in budgeting--this is our exception.  But for the rest of the force, competing expenditures dilute training outlays to the point where decisions are made along these lines: If 500 hours is optimum for NVG flight proficiency, then 300 will do in a pinch for unit trainers--or, let's just halve the ammo requirements for CS units and call that proficiency for those folks (my personal favorite budget F/U).  Don't put blinders on; snipers are fighting for dollars against the aviators, engineers, and cooks!  This why congress cuts USSOCOM a check all by themselves--too many tankers cuttin' into the pie before... And if you squeeky-wheel loud enough--someone will build ya a nintendo-style simulator that shoots just as flat as kansas and bucks gales with nary a hint of drift!!!!

 So, in nutshell--do you want a .308 that you can buy gobs of--and a disciplined C.O. that can get range time?  Or do you want a new gee-wiz round that costs so much that you get three per year to play with and a CO afraid to let any but the best even try?  

If you are dead-set on taking it to the next level--someone is gonna have to get political for you.  Now I am laughing my ass off---of all the folks I've hung out with, snipers have got to be the least political humans on the planet!!!!  That, my friend, is probably the biggest hurdle to force modernization--the politics of money...Man, I'm still laughing about the political sniper...hey?  Ain't that considered an assassin?  LOL!  Too funny!

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
EC, WI, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 04:43:08 (ZULU)

Brief review here of Shaka Zulu:

http://www.eonline.com/Facts/Movies/0,60,15353,00.html

I think the series was made in South Africa.  I saw most of it a while ago.  It was interesting, though pretty gory.  Fascinating study of how a relatively simple weapons innovation and new tactics coupled with a strong-willed leader shifted the balance of power and created an empire.  I don't know how true the history portrayed is.  Perhaps Marcus would comment?

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 04:53:46 (ZULU)

 Some guy named Clinton says "Balck Hawk Down" was Bush 41st's fault!  This guy is great...just don't use anything he might say for answers on a history exam!!!!  Instead, go to this link for the real deal.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002091

BTW--Nicole continues to amaze us.  She is impervious thus far to her chemo treatments.  She just soldiers on....simply amazing kid!

Joe

Joe <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
The Dells, Vacation, with kids - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 05:04:21 (ZULU)

I would like to nominate you for Sec. of Defense. I hope you continue your career all the way to the top of whatever ladder you're on.

Glad to hear about Nicole as well.

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 11:29:20 (ZULU)

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 11:48:39 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020807-16883846.htm

The whole Middle East will turn upside down.  Good.

A tale of our procurement/supply system.  This backs up some of the points Ken M has been making:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52737-2002Aug6.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 14:03:33 (ZULU)

                  The people that you posted about are CREOLE! You've confused them with the CAJUN! No insult percieved from this descendant of a Cajun family dating back to the times of Evangeline:-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 14:42:07 (ZULU)

Got my Gardner Gun in last week and got to do some shooting with Fatboy this weekend.  George sure can build em!  Fired first shot from bore sight and hit 1" high and I think 12" left.  Made corrections and cleaned (break-in), then fired next shot.  2nd shot went dead bull and next 8 rounds followed.  Total group size of 9 shots was 1 1/4" of Fed GMM.  Actually the last 5 were fired consecutively without cleaning and 2 of these opened the group up.  Had the neatest little cluster in 3/4" from the rest.  We moved on to loads testing just for velocity info and weren't worried with group size.  Total powder weight spread was about 1.5 grains between 15 rounds.  We had loaded with .3 grains difference between loads and only fired 3 rounds per group.  The velocity difference wasn't what I expected but what was nice was the total group size of those 15 rounds was again around 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" I think.  We didn't measure but that is what it looked like to me.  That is flat out tremendous for that wide of a powder weight difference and number of rounds.  This is from a .300 Win Mag with a 24" tube off a bipod and no rear rest, just my gloved hand.  George, this thing is awesome!

The range that Fatboy has the 1000 yd shoot at on the 25th is nice!  If any of youse guyz can make it, you should have a great time.  I'll try to be there with this new stick but can't make any guarantees.  Ya'll take it easy.

Nick  

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 14:57:39 (ZULU)

Ken wrote: "Hopefully the war's coming soon, before it takes 20kt in downtown NY or DC to make the point.  Then again, maybe that would be better in the long term."

Ken, I'm thinking that a 20kt air burst over NYC might just impact me at <50 miles outside the city limits... catshooter is in CT, probably close enough to get 'burned' as well.. sure hope you all tip a few in our memory...

Joe M... you have my vote.

Brian Sain... I suggest you attach your cardiologist to the team as an advisor (costs you NOTHING!)... TEMS teaches medics a whole lot... but a cardiologist and a GOOD trauma doc could make them that much better... Only medics in the top 1% are good enough... everyone else is "in training" (me included).  You ever get a tactical medic that thinks he is a 1%, throw him out.... he ain't.  

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:02:30 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:26:39 (ZULU)

I've shot a few times at some bunnies, and 10 rounds thru the 6.5 x 284 of my mate's here at work.  That's about it, there is some legalities to get worked out before I can step on the range with rifle in hand, for one I have to join a gun club, and that's no biggie, all ready had the offer.  You have to have a bona fide reason to keep firearms, and ammunition, bloody communists, and these reasons must meet the satisfaction of the local sheriff.  Once I get that sorted, I'll have the rifles shipped and I'll be good to go.  

CDC,

I'll take a peek at that site and get back to ya

later eh

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:38:22 (ZULU)

CREOLE:  Same thing basically, only with an African, Carribean influence.

A mix of these two is known as a Redbone.

New Orleans has always been wide open. Going back next month.  Most of my Dads people are from that area.  Many Cajuns migrated to this part of Texas.

BILL:  Wasn't no dream bro. She lives here with me. You just described my wife.  Broussard (Broo-sard) on two sides. Fruge (Froo-shay) and Bourgeois (Boosh-wa) on the other.  Full blooded, died in the wool Coonass.  At any given time, she can't decide if she wants to fight, f23k or cook ! and mean as a cottonmouth snake.  

I guess she has to be to stay with my crazy ass.  

... No, I ain't sharin' but I will tell her you said hi.

PS:  You oughta see her sister.

Lafayette SWAT - now THAT is an oxymoron !!! Crank de motor on dat fan boat cher, dat beeper done beeped and we gots to go !!! I gots de boolets jus don forget de rifle.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:43:57 (ZULU)

I have a question for all users of 168's. I have had serveral folks tell me that 168's will not stay SS at 1K. My ballistics program shows them to still be SS at that distance and the program has all ways been accurate. Whats the deal? I dont want to run 175's through my M1A. But I want to shoot it at 1K..

Yote Bait, No need to apologize to Coonass', cajuns or ceroles. It wont be till some time next week  that they notice you offended them ;) Just like insulting a Hill Billy....

Dirty Steve (Originally form West-By God-Virginia), out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 16:58:32 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 17:02:12 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: Either works. I've shot 168's, and had no problem, but I tend to run mine on the brisk side. The 175's have actually a scoche LESS bearing surface than the 168's. Run them through your M1A and be happy.

Joe, "black hawk down" was the fault of Bush. So are fattening foods, pudgy women in thongs holding Cuban cigars, and unmarried teen pregnancy. Sorry, that last one was actually a Clinton fault. Keep that good news about Nicole coming!

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 18:00:37 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-freund080702.asp

MedicJim:  My post sounded different than I meant it.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 18:06:38 (ZULU)

Where did you get your M444 from?  How's about a review (mebbe when the weather turns less friendly...don't want to sacrifice range time. Heck, might even be a good "creative writing" project for Andy ;))).)?  I've heard mixed reviews about 'em on the FAL boards, so I was curious.  I figger, if I get one (FAL) it's not for pinpoint accuracy, so if an M444 will shoot as well as a DSA, why not?

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 20:04:15 (ZULU)

It all started by people mixing animal carcasses with commercial livestock feed to increase protein content (and profits).  Moral of the story:  don't f#&k with mother nature.

This is the main body of a memo passed down from a water Pretreatment Coordinator to treatment plants in western states:

On 9/17/01, I sent out an email to everyone on my email list at that time about Chronic Wasting Disease and concern about discharges to POTWs.

There have been deer and elk identified in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, and South Dakota that have a disease called Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). CWD is caused by a prion. A prion is a protein that has an abnormal structure. A different type of prion causes scrapie in sheep, "Mad Cow Disease" in cattle in Europe, and Crutzfeld-Jacob Disease in humans, among others. There is a lot of work occurring on CWD in Region 8. Even as this email is going out, the First National Conference on CWD is happening in Denver. Prions in animal tissue are very persistent and can only be destroyed by some fairly aggressive treatment (high temp digestion, high temp incineration, etc.). Normal disinfect ion techniques are often ineffective (boiling, alcohol, dry heat, etc). The University in Fort Collins and the University of Wyoming have installed equipment that eliminates the infectivity of the CWD prion (a Large pressure cooker using sodium hydroxide). They discharge to the City of Fort Collins and the City of Laramie, respectively.

Bob Brobst, Rick Koplitz (CDPHE), and myself have been involved in this from a waste disposal standpoint. Little has really been done on coordinating with the various regulatory agencies on wastewater disposal (discharge of waste to POTWs, leach fields, etc). Currently, the Colorado Department of Wildlife (CDOW) has begun to construct facilities to process deer and elk heads in several locations. These locations include Fort Collins, Craig, and maybe Grand Junction.

The CDOW takes tissue from tonsils, lymph, and brain for testing. They intend to incinerate or send the heads for digestion. The labs where the tissue is taken are washed down and equipment sterilized. This water must be disposed of. Two methods of disposal have been pursued. First, they designed it so the local POTW can take the waste. Secondly, they are applying for a underground injection permit to discharge to a leach field. In the former situation, they have no treatment in place nor do they have data on the concentration of chemicals or daily wastewater volumes they expect to generate. The CDOW is working with us to develop this information.

The concerns regarding this activity is several. Discharge to a POTW will move the prions from one media to several others. Of particular concern is the biosolids generated by the POTW, the discharge of prions to receiving waters that are used by wildlife as water supplies, as well as, public water supplies. We do not know the epidemiology of this disease, including how persistent it is in the environment (though it appears to be at least 3-5 years, maybe more, the dose required for infectivity, the potential for affecting other species, including humans, etc.). POTWs need to be aware that their treatment is not thought to be effective (even UV radiation or the level of chlorination used) at inactivating the prions. Land application of biosolids would be of particular concern (composting or other treatment is not effective). We do not know the potential impacts of animals grazing on land application sites, nor the potential impact of consumption of plants or animals exposed to these prions. There is too much that we do not know about this disease organism.

We have been compiling alot of information on prions and will send out some information that we have compiled from CDC, World Health Organization, and others before long.

We have been working with CDOW on looking at implementing total containment of the untreated waste. Discharge to a POTW is not currently an option that we have indicated would be acceptable for any waste with active prions. Minimizing the wastewater volume and then evaporation followed by high temperature incineration is our best guess at this point. If they can take wastewater directly to high temperature incineration, we also found that reasonable. The ash from the incinerators is slated for disposal at a landfill. It is also an option to install digesters, such as that used by the CSU Vet School, for the destruction of the CWD prion. We are continuing work on this, daily.

Aside from the government/university facilities, POTWs need to identify other sources of potential contamination. The first business that comes to mind are the commercial slaughter houses that process deer and elk meat. Who are they? Are they on sewer or leach fields? What can be done to control these facilities? Do these facilities know of the potential problems?

Based upon current research, it appears that this disease is spreading. This year, the CDOW alone expects to process up to 50,000 deer and elk heads. A certain percentage of these will be infected. Wyoming has higher infection rates and will be processing animals. We need to work relatively quickly to assess the threat to POTWs, receiving waters, and biosolids. I will probably be organizing a one day meeting to focus on the wastewater management issues this fall. We need to involve pretreatment people, biosolids people, the various university and wildlife people. Any feedback would be welcomed.

Old Ironsights <scsmith@micron.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 20:46:30 (ZULU)

I think this is the sandstrom you are looking for:

9A AS5272Type II

can either be sprayed or dipped believe it is baked at 400 F, check out the specs at the sandstrom website, it's on the mil-spec solid lubricant's link.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 20:58:08 (ZULU)

I got my rifle from Dans in PA. http://www.dansammo.com/firearms.asp

I'm happy with the rifle and it functions fine.  My sole complaint is that since putting on American "green" furniture the selector switch will swing out of the semi position and the hammer will follow the bolt forward resulting in a malfunction (fail to fire).

The trigger pull is not too crisp but I think it can be fixed.  The gun shoots when I pull the trigger and I can hit the steel out to 250 yards most of the time.  Off the bench with surplus ball ammo the rifle will group inside 2.5 inches regularly with some better groups from time to time.  The bore will load up with copper fouling after 100 rounds and takes quite a while to scub clean.

If you're looking for a .308 blaster this is probably the best bang for the buck.

I'm giving some thought to mounting a low power scope (ACOG) to see if I can improve my hits.

If you've got any specific questions drop me an e-mail.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 22:04:15 (ZULU)

Ben

Ben Weeks <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 22:08:16 (ZULU)

I don't advocate replacing the 308 with a 338RUM or Lapua, I'd like to add 2 to each platoon's TOE to add another capability to the sniper.  As I mentioned, in the ideal world I'd like a better cartridge to replace the 308, but it isn't going to happen because of so many OTHER factors beyond my(or any infantryman's) control.  IMO, getting the ammo shouldn't be a problem.  The problem is the fact that a significant portion of the military leadership of this nation no longer considers the infantry a key part of winnning wars.  In fact, we are not worried about winning wars, only maintaining fragile peace in outer Shitholistan.  The problem, at it's base, is the fact that we've been at peace for too long.  We need some serious war in order to clean house at the puzzle palace and the various Commands thoughout the US military.  Green welfare needs to go away.  Damned if I know a solution that we could actually get done.  The idea of running for political office is a laugh.  But I suppose I could talk to my Congress critter.  He's a Navy flyboy, so he can't be completely useless.

A 20kt bomb is small, about halfway between the Hiroshima bomb(12-15kt) and the Nagasaki bomb(22kt), it really wouldn't do all that much damage outside about a 4-6km radius in a western urban area.  The real damage in Japan was caused by the fire that followed the bombs.  No firefighters, no water pressure, life is going to be very hard in the immediate future in the blast area.  Also, my money's on a ground burst.  Trailer of a semi or something similar.  That also cuts down on blast radius.  Downwinders might lose some hair and have a higher risk for cancer and other bad things.  Hazardous levels(100 rem/hr) from a ground burst would probably extend 10-15km downwind with lesser exposure extending much further.  This would all be fallout exposure that could be averted simply be getting out of the area for several days.  Click on my name for the Redwing Seminole test shot, which was 13.7kt surface burst.  It's probably something very similar in output to what some 3rd world nation could put together.  Bad juju, but hardly the end of the world.  I know you East coasters are packed A to B, but a NY shot would not have any real effect on CT.  I've been to Peace park(Hiro bomb ground zero) and I'd rather not have one here in the CONUS, but it wouldn't be the end of the US, not by a long shot.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M      

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 22:58:50 (ZULU)

I saw the Nikon scope at the Shotshow and looked fairly good.  The newer ones are not out yet because they re doing some different things to the reticle.  These things takke time especially when you just spec a scope and have someone else build it for you.  You looking for a new lesser expesive varible go with the M3 LR from Premiere.  Not made in China.

Bill 223 not wroking.  Get your medication.  Its good to go.

Rick, Captain Stewart called today.  Seems like a hell of a nice guy but never imagined you hooked up with a West Pointer.LOL  I gave him all the info he wanted.  Talked for an hour.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 00:36:09 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 00:37:14 (ZULU)

    On the wastewater treatment,have you considered ozonation (ozone)? It's supposedly better than chlorine at killing stubborn "bugs". It also oxidizes organics.

    Another technology is mixed oxidants(MIOX)systems. They have been shown to have a very good reduction in Crytosporidium(very resistant to chlorine)and Giardia, also eliminates E.coli and cholera in a half hour. This system uses electricity and a sodium chloride brine(saltwater). Over simplification but you get the idea.

    I realize that you are dealing with a protein, but these may be something to consider if you haven't done so. Almost everything in the water and wastewater business is geared towards disinfection of bacteria and virus types.

    The system I work for, City of Satsuma,AL Water & Sewer Board, may start considering these options in the future. The MIOX system probably will be the better choice for us.

    We use ground filtration as a major part of the wastewater treatment. Problem is when the ground gets saturated(holds water), the wastewater sits on top. Doesn't help that the ground has clay in it.

    Can the disease be transmitted by parasites(fleas, ticks, etc.)? If it can, it will be hard to contain. Also, what threat is known to humans?

             LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 00:42:34 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 01:35:48 (ZULU)

....Kevin (Andy's dad),

Where did you get your M444 from?  How's about a review.....

How about a review of the White Oak Precision AR15 you picked up last month?  There are plenty of AR shooters on the board.

Jerry

Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 01:55:06 (ZULU)

You can get a semi-auto selector by using an inch pattern selector and dremel the selector a bit. Or just buy a DSA semi selector, they may even be cheaper then an inch pattern one.

You can improve the trigger pull by cliping a 1/4 turn off your trigger return spring.

paul <nvcdl@erols.com>
Alexandria, VA, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 02:03:44 (ZULU)

I'm workin' on it.  Believe it or not, I haven't had it out to the range yet fer breakin' in.  I'll be gettin' my ammo etc on Friday, so by next thursday, I'll have had some rounds through 'er.  I had to wait to get the cleaning stuff from Sinclair, and the sling etc. from Tommy at Georgia Precision will be here on Fri.  I'm psyched.  I was at the range today shootin' the CZ .22 and cleaned the "Black Death" target with a perfect 50(www.stararchery.net./topgun/topgun.htm  scroll down to the Black Death rules and target etc.).

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 02:30:34 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 06:29:47 (ZULU)

          About CWD - reports from Wisconsin say that three people came down with Crutzfeld-Jacob Disease (related to CWD) reportedly after eating venison from the same animal. I don't think that further tests are in yet, but my wife just returned from the area late last week and says that the hunting population, and that means most people in the North Woods, are scared. A rare disease in humans, CJD occurs so infrequently that for three people who had nothing else in common but consuming the same meat, it looks like a link between CWD and CJD is being established.

           The CDOW recently announced that there will be a formal CWD test facility in Grand Junction at permanent CSU installation. It's about 20 mi. from my house. Another reason not to drink water!

           The hunters in this area (Western Colorado) are very concerned with this situation as they watch it grow. There has been virtually no public education on the subject coming from the CDOW at this point. It looks as if the drought might be ending, and with it the threat of forest fires. If this is the case, we will probably be inundated by hunters from out-of-State, as we are most every year, who might know even less about CWD, and could serve to spread it to other States. The cynical among us believe that the CDOW is deliberately keeping the threat of CWD quiet for several reasons. One is that they recieve their funding through the sale of hunting licenses, another is that the outfitters that make their living guiding out-of-Staters and the large landowners that lease them private hunting lands will have a shortfall this year if no hunters show. They are a very powerful lobby in the Statehouse. Another very powerful lobby that stands to lose a huge amount of revenue is the Chamber of Commerce types, who own the lodging industry, plus the stores that sell food and liquor. Add to that the gas stations, convenience stores, ans sporting goods stores. Hell, there's even money to be made selling the licenses. Money talks, disease scares walks. I guess we can sit back and watch what happens. Me? I'm hunting Utah this year!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 06:38:52 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57400-2002Aug7.html

Sketch of a battle to take Baghdad:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/541yuamu.asp

"...urban fighting can be difficult and dangerous."

No fooling?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 12:32:02 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 12:44:09 (ZULU)

  I agree with you on your statement that it would be better to have a round that would buck the wind and take away some of the error in the wind calls.

  The problem is that each caliber has its own unique wind bucking ability and it takes thousands of rounds down range before you as a shooter can make the calls accuratly. I started shooting the 308s and afer a couple of barrels had them figured out pretty well. I Then switched to the 260 because I got a better bullet with better wind bucking and after 2 barrels I got fairly handy with that one. Now I still needed the "Extra edge" to keep up with the competition so I went to the 6.5x284 and it was even better yet.

 But you know what, I don't think I shoot as well as I did before. I now have a tendency to either not correct enough or correct to much. The other problem is when I switch back to the 308 or the 260 I am not as sure of my calls as I used to be. The point is I think we need to stick to "ONE" rifle and shoot it alot and I know this is what your saying too. The porblem being that they don't get enough shooting.

 I personally feel that giving them a rifle that shoots flatter and with less wind drift won't cure the problem. Like Rick and I were saying the .338 is a bear to shoot for the average shooter and hard on barrels equating to less rounds down range.

 In your defence I know what your trying to say but putting a band aid on a cut that needs stitches won't really help. Just my thoughts on it. Will it help if I say "I feel your pain"(HA) Hang in there Bud!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 13:49:59 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins080802.asp

My tiny children are in the other room calling "I want to be an Airbourne Ranger" cadence.  It irritates my wife to no end.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 14:28:15 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 16:05:58 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 21:17:27 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any design suggestions?  If someone has done something like this already, and can provide pictures, I would much appreciate it.  Thanks.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 21:21:35 (ZULU)

Kids...my grandson whenever he sees a soldier or the flag on TV salutes! His dad sweares he didn't teach him that, I didn't so it must be in the genes and blood! Oh he's 2 almost 3!!!

Maybe there is hope for a new generation!!

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 22:44:02 (ZULU)

I'm not in the water treatment business.  A buddy passed the information along to me so I don't know the results of the meeting that was mentioned.  I've done a little research and every state now has a program to look for CWD.

The Colorado DOW had some deer in pens for a time for studies.  Of course, they had to feed them and some, over time, escaped or were released.  CWD was discovered in the herd and now the pen area is considered contaminated and they're not sure how long the contamination will remain in the soil.

Deer and elk farms are not a good idea because of this problem.  Keeping deer or elk concentrated in one spot doesn't help the situation.

I also saw a  local news report in Utah a couple of years ago before I had heard of CWD.  It was about a northern Utah man who had a rare brain disease.  His doctors believed he had contracted it from eating deer meat.  They didn't say where the deer was harvested.

Old Ironsights <scsmith@micron.com>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 22:50:26 (ZULU)

   One of the companies that makes a mixed oxidant treatment system now has the same technology in a "pen". They sent it to Afghanistan for evaluation.

   It is supposed to be available in 2003. Go to MIOX.com, click on news.

Old Ironsights;

   Please pass on the info I posted to your buddy. Water and wastewater technology is progressing quickly these days. There is probably a solution out there.

   You wrote like you are in the business. You really had your stuff together. I was genuinely interested in your post. Now if only news reporters could pass along information that well.

    LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 00:02:26 (ZULU)

I've been thinking of getting a 22lr for my wife and daughter.  I'm real interested in the CZ 452 Varmint.  The only drawback I see is that they aren't available with iron sights, as I wanted my daughter to use irons for a bit longer before transitioning to a scope. Well, the LOP for a 7 year old will be a bit much, but it'll be on bags for now anyway.

Do any of you own a 452?  General impressions.  I've found them in the $320 range.  Also,,, do they need special rings for optics?

The rifle will be used to shoot steel sillouttes to 100 yards.  Any info or alternate suggestions is appreciated.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 00:29:13 (ZULU)

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 00:30:21 (ZULU)

I'm a lurker here on this board, and just a sport shooter/plinker (but, the information you can get from reading the many posts here still do apply and help), but I do own a CZ 452 American (chambered in .22WMR instead, so your milage may vary).

I've found it to be a good rifle. Good build, pretty good accuracy (I'm still getting the feel for the rifle). The barrel on mine was a bit skewed to the right against the stock, nothing a bit of sandpaper and a dowel wouldn't fix. The wood stock is solid and has a good amount of heft to it (not ridiculously heavy, but a good weight to give it a sense of solidness). Also, it seems to be picky on what ammo it likes to get fed (like any other .22 rifle in existence) in terms of accuracy.

According to many of the reviews and conversations I have heard about them, the CZs seem to shoot very good out of the box. Many people cited them as probably one of the best values for accuracy out of the box.

The only gotcha I had with CZs are that they seem to alternate between 3/8" and a 11mm scope rail (some lines use the 3/8" rail, others will use the metric 11mm rail). A set of rings that I found work well with these are the BKL 257 rings (they can be used interchangably). You could probably get any other rings to fit with a bit of effort (if it turns out to be a 11mm scope rail).

In all, I'm happy with my purchase of my CZ 452. I do hope that you do find a rifle that is a good match for your needs.

Jon

Jon Quirit <jquirit@yahoo.com>
Chatsworth, CA, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 01:03:39 (ZULU)

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve Field <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Pensacola, Lower Ala., USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 02:17:26 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 02:44:41 (ZULU)

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 02:57:15 (ZULU)

Well said, Pat. I note the same thing...that when I shoot a lot of different rifles I'm not as sure of my calls. Primarily, I stick to my .308, as it does most of what I want in a rifle. However, when the conditions are bad and I need to reach out I grab my 6.5 X .284. After shooting it, though, I do find myself udercorrecting on the .308.

Pay heed to the old saying: "Beware the man with one gun. He just might know how to use it!"

Tomorrow is a day off and "play day". Steve Nelson, custom gunsmith is meeting me to test some of his custom rifles. Since I'm feeling devilish I'm going to introduce him to my 6.5 X .284...:-)

More tomorrow after a day on the range. YEE HAA!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 03:02:54 (ZULU)

Think there is still a public outdoor range over in Mobile.  Don't have specifics.  Shot there once several years ago.

Good Luck.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 03:55:13 (ZULU)

A lot of what Jon said was right.  I have a 452 Varmint and I love it.  However, I've found mine to be very UN-picky about ammo. I think alot of Jon's ammo sensitivity is also due to the fact it's a .22 mag. Mine will shoot one holers at 50yds all day with El-Cheapo American Eagle all day long.  At 100 it really likes the Eley Silhouette and the Wolf Match Target and Fed GM are sure fire winners.  In fact I just maxed out a "Black Death Challenge" target yersterday 50 out of 50 with my 452.  

The triggers are OK but what's really nice is that you can adjust them yourself quite easily. As far as the scope dovetail, all the models except the 452 American use an 11mm dovetail.  I have a set of CZ rings on mine and they are SOLID.

If you're looking for a smaller model, check out the 452 Scout model.  It's designed for kids and has irons on it.  In fact CZ's have about the nicest irons you'll find on a rifle of it's kind.

Overall I think they're probably the best .22 out there for the money.  I've found a couple of places that have'em for about $290.  Heck, get a Varmint or American for you and a Scout for the youngin'

Hope this helps,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:15:51 (ZULU)

 We definately agree on the "cleansing" aspect of general war:  That would solve many, many problems.  Getting rid of the spineless careerists is the biggest benefit I can think of.  Too many of my so-called peers are too afraid to step up and 1) Tell it like it is; 2) take risks in anything (not gambling, just trying something new) or 3) Giving subordinates the ability to "grow" with some responsibility and autonomy...Zero-defects!  I made field grade literally on the backs of some good NCOs who had free reign to do their jobs...and I am considered reckless by many of my peers (including my current boss).  These same detractors are also the same who will carry very bad habits into a war.  Not these short firefights we've had lately, but war--these guys will weed out quickly!  The survivors will be no-sh!t leaders that will support and defend your obligation to train hard!!!  Maybe Kim II will oblige, eh?  My politician remark meant the "in-uniform types" of 0-6 or above at the table fightin' for money for sniper programs.  I can't think of one in the Army either.  But hey, I'm almost there!  I know the value--and will pull hard when the time comes!  But man, are we at the mercy of some managerial pricks or what???  When I started this ride, Nam vets were serving throughout the chain.  They changed the Army into the desert storm juggernaut that whipped the fourth largest army in 100 hours...as they retired.  The sycophants who grew up in these hero's shadows are now in charge.  I could go on forever...better not though.  I work for some of these folks....

Jaeger,

 Bush started "humanitarian Assistance" to the Sammies.  Clinton ended this operation--declaring victory over hunger.  Then the UN came under attacks from the warlords---and Clinton launched a new operation--resulting in the bloody battle of Mog memorialized in BHD.  Bush's nation feed was over---Clinton's peace-keeping with mission creep (incremental escalation over the force's designed capabilties) was a whole separate deal.  Same country though, I will give you that.  To blame Bush is to ignore a whole bunch of executive decisions and initiatives.  The most disciplined part of my career was holding my tongue while a certain individual held a certain high office and killed some of my associates and a friend...then he flew the bastard who was the objective to a peace conference on a US bird.  Today, he forgets all this recorded chronology as he placed the whole thing on GHWBush's lap!  Gawd.  I almost puked.  But I never voiced my disgust til now.  I think it's OK to voice an opinion on "history."  Errrr, I hope it is anyway....

Anybody else enjoying this goddam "peace dividend" yet?  I sure as hell have in the past 12 years (lotsa tax breaks!)!  But, then I sure do miss the old cold war sometimes--lotsa family time!

Cranky Joe (briefin' useless stats to generals at the HQ)

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
FT Knox, KY, TDY - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:27:50 (ZULU)

          Saw some recent photos of the USMC DMR (M25) and the M40A3 sniper rifle. I noticed that both rifles were fitted with odd pairs of scope rings. Six top screw ring in the foward position and four top screw ring at the back. Both rings had single bolts securing them to the 1913 rail. By their specific features they were of GG&G manufacture, but it was hard for me to be sure because of the photography.

          Can anyone out there give me a heads-up on this situation, such as why they've adopted this combination and who, in fact, is the manufacturer? I've never had the experience of having a good set of four-screw rings, like Badger, GG&G, MWG, Mk4, etc., fail, come loose, or whatever, especially on a .308! What gives?

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:39:06 (ZULU)

 Now that round settles wind drift problems, don't it?

 Seriously, Ken--you are dead on right.  I'm betting on Seattle though.  PAC-Rim nations ship more lil stuff, and Indonesia is the next hang out for the bad guys.  A nuke is easier to hide in this mix, higher PK ratio for a one-time attack scenario (it'll be smuggled out of a siberian bunker for a Million US)...Bio attacks:  probably happen four or five times before we even catch on.  May precede the nuke by five years.  I say the nuke inside of ten years.  I'm willing to bet dinner on this at the ground zero steak-house...any takers?

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Still TDY, in , Wonderland! - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:40:37 (ZULU)

I had better slink off to my hole for the next while - a have reappeared on the email tgt list again - I almost opened one from KenM's email till my scanner kicked it up as a V.

Later.

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 05:21:54 (ZULU)

Has anyone had a chance to look at the new Weatherby TRR?  I read an article about it in GW/LE about a month ago, and it looks pretty good.  I wonder how it would work with a new Nikon tactical sitting on top of it?  Best of all, I contacted Weatherby and the Threat Response Rifle and Threat Response Magnum will both be available to non law enforcement types who are interested in precision rifles, unlike the pain you have to go through with Remington to try to get a 700P.  Just curious.

Marc

Marcus Ingram <snarl@coastalnow.net>
Hinesville , GA, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 11:06:01 (ZULU)

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 11:32:43 (ZULU)

Bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 13:22:09 (ZULU)

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAADJANN4D.html

Terrs sneak a nuke into US?  Who'll do it?  Al Qaeda?  They'll be dead by then.  Sadaam?  Him too.  Iran?  The mullahs will be out of power.  There's incredible pressure on the terrorist networks.  Arms traders don't know if customers are actually antiterrorist agents who'll turn them over to Dave's buddies and Rick's students.  Real customers don't know if that friendly Russian mobster is actually on our payroll.  The customer's money is drying up.  So I think not.  We'll see.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 13:31:05 (ZULU)

One of the things I remember from the presidential campaign, was how the press completely hammered Bush on his lack of foreign policy experience.  We all heard the statements and interviews on national and worldwide TV to the effect of "Bush is an idiot and has no clue about foreign policy", yadda yadda.  It was so blatant that I remember saying to myself "if I am the Chinese, or Hezbollah, or Saddam, I am watching this and drooling on myself."  I was pissed at the media for doing it too.  Basically airing an open invitation to fuck with us.  Hey, thanks a lot dickweeds!

I also remember thinking to myself that Bush appeared to be surrounding himself with some really bright advisors in key positions.  In other words, dummy or no dummy, he still had enough smarts to pick the right people to fill in his weak areas and delegate accordingly.  That is a good leader.  We are reaping the rewards of that leadership in the campaign against the Taliban and Al Qaeda.  ClitNon or Gwhore would have bypassed the cruise missiles, bypassed his military advisors, and flown a single manned airstrike against a large goat herd to "show we mean business" and called it an "equal response", but without any other support, right into fortified Taliban held territory (or something similiarly stupid and ineffective), and probably got someone shot up or shot down.  

Next election we might not be so lucky and the door will really be wide open.

Sorry for the rant.  Tired from working all night, and you pushed a button with the prediction thing.  No shooting dope to post, working way too much.  I need sleep.  I hope I am making sense here.  As you were!    

Edited cause I cent speel today....

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 14:11:50 (ZULU)

Even dopey me knows not to ignore predictions from this group...

I'll be typing resumes this weekend...

Anyone need a firefighter/medic with a proven ability to recruit, develop and manage elite teams in a oppressive fortune 100 environ?  Basically, when it comes to competing with todays crop of MBAs, I can do just about anything better.  I'm humble too..

I'd like to be at least 100 miles from an urban center... and I want a range in the back yard.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 15:50:59 (ZULU)

          I wonder why we (the USA) always have to wait to get hit first, then retaliate. History shows us that this is a repeated trait, and one that's going to come back and bite us on the ass, and with a vengence. I guess it's just the "American Way".

          Preemptive strikes, carried out properly, could have averted some of the tragedies that we've suffered in the past. And I don't mean bombing asprin factories or empty caves. Lacking any kind of effective long range missle capability, or even a real air force, our Muslim enemies found a very effective way to strike us in the heart. And what do we do? We literally POUND SAND!

          We insist on striking military targets only. Was the WTC a military target? Was it a coincidence that the Saudis were major players in both WTC disasters? When a Jihad (holy war) has been declared on us by these maniacs, and not decried by the official "governments" in power it doesn't take much to figure out what to do about it.

          Expel all those citizens of certain select countries and halt all further visas to people of suspect backgrounds or origin.

Destroy all Saudi, Syrian, and Iraqi oil fields to start. Destroy all military bases belonging to those countries, and to any others that actively harbor terrorists. Turn Isreal loose on the Palestinians, and keep them supplied with munitions as long as they need them. Make it very clear that we will continue to destroy their military and their economic power as long as they permit this shit to go on. Assassinate the leaders of all the countries and continue to do so until friendly regimes are solidly in place. Make it perfectly clear that since they are so religiously driven that we will destroy every Moslem holy place including Mecca itself, if a single terrorist attack on our country, citizens, or military ever occurs. I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

         All of this will never happen. Instead, we will be stuck in a Viet Nam type of quagmire until the Muslims, Chinese, and North Koreans have ICBM's targeted on our entire country. I can hear the "won't ever happen" exclaimations already. Yeah, just like Tet couldn't ever happen, losing the war in VietNam couldn't happen, blowing-up a US warship in a "friendly" port couldn't happen, and the Twin Towers would never be brought down! Ground Zero at the Washington Monument?

Rant over,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 15:52:34 (ZULU)

Check out www.snipershide.com/blackrifles/m40a3.html for info on the M40A3. It was written by Mike Miller so the info is good. I'll put it as a link in my name. From ther article it says the rings are Badgers.

From the article:

"The scope rings are Badger Ordinance brand. The front ring is wider than the rear. This is for a special cap that provides a mounting platform for the SIMRAD Night Vision Device. This device allows the user to use a day scope and attach a NVD over the top and slightly in front of it."

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 16:24:57 (ZULU)

Get der Anshuetzen ven you get serious meinen freund.

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 16:54:36 (ZULU)

Also the most current M40A3 has a bolt stop moved to the side of the receiver like Norcal makes, but a copy of the McMillan design.

Been playing with a new rifle from George. It what I think the USMC should have ended up with:

M24 taper bbl.  Scheider or Rock does not matter.

Subminute Solutions stock

Badger floor metal

Badger scope base

The thing weighs 12lbs and shoots sub .25moa all day, as long as I do my part.  Let a USMC Captain shoot it in a class I put on and almost ahd to shoot him to get it back.

Take care

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 18:10:14 (ZULU)

Sent you an email from my work address, I will resend via the 'certified' email associated w/ snipercountry (I wasn't thinking about how we need to screen)...

for safety, I suggest you only open the one that matches my email in snipercountry... sorry for the screw-up.. time on the email should be just before I posted this message.

Jim

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 18:50:37 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 19:56:27 (ZULU)

Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 20:42:37 (ZULU)

The Anshutz is my first choice.  I'd like to get my hands on a older Model 54, or a 64 if the stock was right for silloutte, but the current crop were's stocks made for positional small bore unless it's a dedicated siloutte rifle, which are $1000+. Guess I could replace the stock, but then I'd be in the $1000 range anyway,,,,  I should get another 308....

My second choice would be a Winchester model 52B, and the CZ varmint my third.  The CZ seems to be the most economical solution, but I LOVE the triggers on the Anshutz...

I guess since this rifle will be my daughter first real expierence in shooting anything besides the Red Ryder I should do it right and make sure she likes it.  I may not get another chance.

Thank you all for the tips so far,, it's helping a great deal.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 21:37:41 (ZULU)

Been reading here for some time and have enjoyed the postings and commentary.  If I may join in, the reason that we as a nation don't go all out is because it's not "popular" with the liberal media to turn world opinion to support us.  If we are struck or harmed in any way, the media by way of Tom Brokenjaw and others can say hey look!  "We were minding our own business and were savagely attacked." thereby forming world opinion to back us.  But heaven forbid a preemptive strike that would once and for all tell the world that we are not to be messed with EVER!!!  Public ratings for the network would go down and cost them money.  Some day I hope they understand that we as a nation have got to mean more than just tv ratings and dollars to line their pockets.  Sorry for the rant on my first post.

daniel flores <savage10fp@yahoo.com>
salinas, ca, usa - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 21:38:31 (ZULU)

Alan,

Right on!

Jim Mitchell,

Try the Missouri Ozarks.  The weather is great(at least TWO days a year), if you don't mind humidity.  My backyard range is only 100 yards; but the local gun club (five miles away) goes to 500 yards.  Quite often you have to run the deer or the turkeys off before you can shoot.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 21:54:32 (ZULU)

Just back from our local range. Sighted in an early RSI Ruger .308 Mannlicher. Nice gun, smooth barrel, but seems ammo sensitive and the best it would do was in the 1 1/2" to 3" range. Most loads over 2". I'm NOT happy with that. Been spoiled by my other guns. Will hunt with it this year as my .284 Mannlicher will not be done until next season.

My Chandler 6.5 X .284 shot wonderfully, as usual. My last several groups at 100 were in the 1/4" range for five rounds. Six hundred yards groups at 1.5". The gun is almost boring and will spoil you for most else. Especially, for hunting and accuracy. LOVE it!

My comrade, Steve Nelson, was testing his clients newly stocked pre-'64 M70 in .280. BEAUTIFUL work. Shot nicely, too. Give Steve a call if you are considering a really nice custom hunting rifle. He is, by the way, Secretary of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild.

The Guild raffle rifle will be a highly modified 03 Springfield in .35 Whelan. You gotta see this...it's probably highest grade work ever done on a Springfield. Comes with a furniture quality display case. You can own it for $20.00...the price of the raffle ticket. They are only selling 4,000 tickets!

All for now...have work to get ready for...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 22:06:33 (ZULU)

  Edited fer sanity

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 22:31:11 (ZULU)

I saw the Cardiologist today.  Things are shaping up quite well.  It's back to work on Monday.  I walked two miles this morning and six miles this evening.  I'm feeling better every day.

Ref: Match @ SMTC

Who's going??????  I made our reservations at the Econolodge today and the check goes out to Rod in the morning.

Ref: Raton Shoot

There's plenty of room at the cabin for anybody wanting to strap-hang.

Attn: Medic Jim

Until you move away from ground zero I'd suggest wearing a patch on one eye, keep your sleeves rolled down and taking lots of iodine. ;-) Upstate New York is nice and the gun laws are not that bad but if you're going to move take a look at Arizona (Tucson).

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 00:18:15 (ZULU)

 Edited fer sanity

CatShooter <condor@mags.net> "

Inquiring minds want to know:  Whose???  It's way too late in my case, anyhow.

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 01:13:49 (ZULU)

As far as a 52B goes, the newer ones are beautiful rifles and feel great in your hands but you will spend money getting it to shoot with an Anschutz.  Just sold one.  The old 52s rock if you can find one.  Not cheap unless you find one in a pawn shop somewhere and they don't know what it is.

Got a Meistergrade 1710 D last year.  Loopy 6.5-20 EFR.  BKL mounts. Shoots ten Winchester bulk Dynapoints from K-Mart (just as well as Eley Tenex) into a 1/4" hole at 50 when I hang on.

Death incarnate in the squirrel woods.

Good luck bud,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 02:32:32 (ZULU)

After shooting on a regular basis to 600 yards, two weeks from now I will be shooting at ranges at or over 1,000 yards.  I know this is really pushing my .308 but, am interested to see what it will do.  Barrel is a 26" 10-twist Kreiger.  Can anyone share their experiences with FGM 168 vs various factory loads of 175 BTHP Match loads at 1,000 yds?

Thanks,

Mike D <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
Palm Harbor, FL, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 02:49:55 (ZULU)

Limited distance though. Last time(few years ago) I was there the rifle range was 100 yards or a little over.

They do have a good place for pistol and shotgun shooters.

               LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 04:21:28 (ZULU)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 11:15:22 (ZULU)

Thanks mang,,, I'll keep that in mind today as I peruse the isles.  I used to shoot old 52B's in 4 position small bore, and also one of the older Anshutz, but it's been about 15 years now,, so I forget now which model.  I passed up a 52A in a 52B stock two gun shows back for $400.  The guy did a hack job getting it into the stock and I couldn't bring myself to pay it...  We'll see what's interesting today,,, God help me if I come across a Winch HBV in 223.. ;)) the duece duece might have to wait.

Mike D,

I know some guys here will defend the 168's, but in the last year I've seen no less than 6 guys try a 168 load.  Some Fed GMM, some Sierra handloads and some with Nosler J4 handloads and nobody has made it to 1K supersonic, factory or custome tubes.  They hit the target most of the time,(NOT supersonic) but no one shooting the 168's has taken a spot in the greater 50% placement, where as the 175's make it to the low to mid 190's very regularly and sometimes high 190's. (Mean Gene Graham shot a 198x12 with his factory Savage 110 Tac a few weeks back).  I'd stick with Black Hills 175's for a factory load or load up a 175SMK in a win case, 44.2gr VarGet with a WLR primer seated to 2.810" and run with it.  Out of a factory 26" tube it'll get there with plenty to spare and is damn accurate to boot.  Not much to look at at 100 yards, but it performs out long. YMMV, work up.

CatShooter,

I keep missing it,,,  If I was a betting man, I'd say whatever you deleted was something most of us would want to read,,,  Speaking of things mysteriously disappearing,, I haven't seen Torsten around lately.  Could that be your deleted secrets,, you've finally hooked up with Torsten's seester??  Please tell us you're not going back to sheep ;))

Off to hunt the isles...

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 11:52:58 (ZULU)

"Edited cuz I got nothing to say."  What's the problem, are you ill?  I have never known you to be at a loss of words. We all enjoy your words of wisdom so quit teasing us.

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
Bartlesville, OK, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 14:48:03 (ZULU)

CatShooter"

Isn't that sort of like the printer's oxymoron: "This page left intentionally blank."

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 15:36:46 (ZULU)

Like Mussack said, Upstate NY isn't so bad. Yes it's NY and yes the criminals, Hillary and Scumer (oops! I mean Schummer.) are here but I live in a place wher CCW's and the shooting sports are not only tolerated but really are quite common. Weather is as nice as any in the NE and the price of land and houses is acceptable. Oh and did I mention that hospitals can't find enough help.

Hit my email if you want to get details.

Here is what's bugging me,

Regarding some postings from a couple weeks ago: There was some commentary about the Canadian sniper who was on the carpet for supposedly dishonoring some dead Taliban. Well some of the posts in response to that story kinda disturbed me. Specifically I'm talking about the posts that thought the sniper was getting a raw deal.

Well here is my take on it. Assuming of course that this soldier did infact dishonor the dead taliban: Why shouldn't he be in deep Kimchie?

Again, assuming it is tru that the behavior was dishonorable or even in bad decorum, why would a soldier dishonor himself by acting disrespectfully toward another soldier, terrorist, scumbag, whatever?

The bottom line (it seems to me) is that, if as a soldier, you wish to be honored and taken as a respected professional, why would you enter into a dishonorable behavior? It lowers you to the wrong level.

Honor among combatants should be a given. Yes you want to eliminate the opponent, but then be man enough to know that you won and leave the rest to history. Taking photos of yourself with a dead enemy and and in a dishonorable fashion only fuels the pacifists point of view.

Hey thats my opinion and not meant as a flame to anyone. The whole thing was just bugging me and I had to rant for a sec.

Mark

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
Upstate central, NY, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 15:44:06 (ZULU)

Re; 168 anything at 1k in a 308.

Easy to do if you understand the rules.

First, no Fed GM168, it's good to 800-850 yards then goes unstable.

2nd, barrel needs to be 1:10 twist, rotational stability counts and you need the rpm on the bullet.

Velocities of about 2650-2700 fps are needed, regardless of bullet weight, the exception being the Amax thing, which will do just fine at 2600fps, at least on my measured  1014 yard line.

The Sierra is the least accurate of the lot, followed by the J4, then the 168 Combined technologies which is really good, best is the Amax.

We have one shooter using Sierra's from a 20 inch tube, but he's night blind from the flash.

I'm done.

Mike

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 15:48:20 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas and Chris;  Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions.  I really appreciate the information you shared with me.  I will be using a 10-twist barrel so, I guess stability and performance would optimized, particularly if I use 175 grain Black Hills or similar ammo.  I you like, I will post results of this experience when I return from the trip.  Thanks again for your help.

Mike D <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
Palm Harbor, Florida, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 16:31:25 (ZULU)

" Edited cuz I got nothing to say.

CatShooter"

Isn't that sort of like the printer's oxymoron: "This page left intentionally blank."

---

Well... I thought I had somthing to say, but I really didn't, so I didn't say anything except that I didn't have anything to say...

... did you get that??  I didn't!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 17:11:22 (ZULU)

I'm getting out to 1000 yds with it, and it seems to follow the 300 Win. turret markings fairly well...but they're in meters, and I'm too old to convert.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, by the way, if you're looking for someplace "away from it all", consider my neck of the woods.  We're a town of 3000 folks in an 8000 square mile county, 75% of which is public land...and Thunder Ranch is building a new facility right here.

Downside is that its at least 100 miles to another larger town, 180 miles to Bend or Medford and 225 to Reno.... 'bout as far from "0" as you can get and still have a Safeway.

Thanks!

Steve <nsege@centurytel.net>
Lakeview, Or, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 17:33:13 (ZULU)

Turbine

Turbine <cardin@cetlink.net>
Tega Cay, SC, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 17:42:44 (ZULU)

You've got mail.  I sent the same one earlier, but mebbe you deleted it when you didn't recognize the addy.  Either that or I'm being a pain in your ass ;))).

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 19:26:38 (ZULU)

Custom Turrets available from:

Armament Technologies

“www.armament.com”

or

Kenton Industries

(805) 531-1018

Kenton@msn.com

Turret labels from:

Turret Tagz

(859) 231-3813

They offer white or florescent tape covers for the turrets

Found the CZ and let it pass.  I think I can do better than 320+ tax+ TBI fee.  Also passed on a nice (italian made) Sharps 1874 45/70 with 28" barrel and creedmore sights for $525 and a late 70's Marlin 1894 carbine (20" barrel) in 444mag for $350.  It was a good day to buy,, I just wasn't in the mood.  Guess I gotta turn in my "gunslut trainee" badge now...

I'm already regretting letting the 45/70 go....

FatBoy...

(editted because not only can I not spell, I get my dates mixed up too)

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 21:45:19 (ZULU)

At the range today I had trouble focusing on the front sight with both eyes open.  Last time I qualled I was doing "eye sprints" between the site and target.  Today I found if I closed my weak eye I didn't have the problem.  Anybody have a suggestion how to keep both eyes open without losing focus?  "Just do it" wasn't cutting it today.

Steve

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 01:04:16 (ZULU)

Round popped up out of the magazine (rock solid Brit mag that works with anything) and instead of feeding, the base went OVER the bolt.  The bolt cycled forward jamming the base of the round between the top of the bolt and the inside top of the receiver!  Bolt would not go back or forward and tip of round was stuck just above gas tube...

Popped both pins (to get some looseness into action) and jacked bolt back.  Then I used a thin serrated needle nose (I'll never be without one again) to pull the bullet and pour out the powder etc.  I then had enough room and leverage on the case to jack the bolt back a bit and pull the really mangled case out with locking pliers.

Now Receiver and Bolt appear undamaged and rifle cycles well...magazine appears undamaged and also cycles Win-ball and two other kinds of ammo well...(and also worked well in a A2 shorty when we checked it later)

Any ideas on what would cause this?  Just bad luck?  What?

Rifle was working well, clean, and hot (just finished a string)

DAMN!

Dennis Hill <1armstronghill@lvcm.com>
Henderson, NV, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 01:18:55 (ZULU)

Making a run of M24's right now, a few hundred of them.  Have Palmas and MTU profiles in stock, as well as 6.5 and 6mm's for the varmint hunters.  If you saw the graphite wrapped barrels at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree, those were shooting in the 'teens!.

Most respectfully,

Mike Rock

mikerock@mhtc.net

Hi GOOCH!!

Mike Rock <mikerock@mhtc.net>
Albany, WI, USA! - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 02:24:58 (ZULU)

Anyone out there with experience using Mike Rock's barrels, particularly in 11.27 twist? What would be the optimum factory load for this twist (out to 700-100- yds)? I am having a Rem. 700 built around this barrel and, I'm anxious to see how it shoots.  Although I am still waiting to send some rounds down this tube, I can personally attest to Mike's willingness to "back his product up". E-Mail me if you would like to know details of why I think he is a "stand-up guy". Also, I know Mike also has several barrels ready for delivery right now. He can be reached at: mikerock@MHTC.net  Thanks for any input you may be able to give me.  

Mike D. <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 02:57:33 (ZULU)

I have a bunch of rifles with Mike's barrels on them that George (GA Precision) made up for me. Fantastic product and great guys. I suggect that you give George a call for additional specifics.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 03:58:21 (ZULU)

               You mentioned Winchester mil-ball ammo in your post about the jam in your AR. Was it Q3131? I don't want to start a rumor that I can't substantiate, but I seem to remember reports of a defective bunch of this stuff a while back. Can't for the life of me remember the details. You might want to check with the mfg. or go to one of the AR-15 sites for more info.

Turbine......

             Palma (155gr.) loads? Start with a 30" to 34" barrel with about a 1:13 twist and a Palma '95 chamber. When you've got that done you can start working up a supersonic 1,000yd. load!

hth,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 04:17:02 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with this stuff?  I've Been using Fedral Gold Match and am currious as to how the Blacks Hills ammo matches up.  I bought a box, which cost a lot less than the fedral, and will be running in through the rifle tomorrow.  Also, what bullet do they use?

Scott

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 04:25:08 (ZULU)

We bought a case about 2 years ago and stored it away.  It works well ok bolt guns. When we tried to use it in the HBAR today...(you saw the result)  After my last post the AR Shorty also did not like it.

I still have most of a case...any ideas?

dennis hill <1armstronghill@lvcm.com>
henderson, nv, usa - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 05:32:42 (ZULU)

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 05:48:52 (ZULU)

I'm going to check with Olin or Winchester...

thanks

Dennis

Dennis Hill <1armstronghill@lvcm.com>
Henderson, nv, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 07:02:01 (ZULU)

Uh huh...This stuff is junk.  I e-mailed Olin just now and when (not if) they ignore me this situation will give me an excuse to get another contender and shoot this stuff up...

Dennis Hill <1armstronghill@lvcm.com>
Henderson, NV, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 07:25:40 (ZULU)

Nag, Nag... I answered your e-mail ;)

You owe me 17 Coors ;)

-

Steve...

>"I'm getting out to 1000 yds with it, and it seems to follow the 300 Win. turret markings fairly well...but they're in meters, and I'm too old to convert."<

I don't understand... if it follows the cam fairly well, who cares what the measurments are, even if they are in furlongs... by the way, if the cam is older than about 6 months, it is in YARDS (no matter what it says on the side).  The new ones say yards.  They don't have a metric cam for the 300WM.  They never did!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 11:10:03 (ZULU)

Based on the feedback from this message board, I acquired

the SharpShooter's Supply competition version (thru Brownells) for my Savage 110.

The housing retention nut that was supplied with the kit was apparently defective, I replaced it and added a lock washer.

As detailed in the directions, I had to remove a small amount of material from the housing so that it would fit my specific receiver.

That part of the housing is intentionally oversize to permit fitting.

I did not try to fiddle with the new unit's sear engagement adjustments, just set up the overtravel and safety adjustments.

(My goal was a safe, better design trigger than the factory Savage

unit with a "reasonable" pull weight.)

I ended up with a pull weight of 1.15 Kg (2.5 lbs).

The vendor claimed nominal pull weights fall into the

range of 0.907 to 0.340 Kg (2lb to 12oz).

http://www.varminthunters.com/sshooter.html

In use, I can feel a tiny bit of creep at the end of travel,

which in some ways makes it a bit easier to avoid jerking

the trigger at the end of the stroke.

Rod Regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 14:18:13 (ZULU)

I sent you an email about a T-shirt I bought for you. Did you get it? I guess I should've mentioned it on the DR, given all the games goin on. It's a nice "kitty" shirt. Let me know if you want it.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 14:21:11 (ZULU)

Load for the 11.25 twist?  Easy Blackhills 175's.

On Molly.  Never mind.  Wont go there.  Dead horse.  Cover them bullets with chicken crap if it makes you feel better.

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 15:34:42 (ZULU)

"Aluminum Saxophone?!!", that's a low "blow"  HA! Just made myself a funny.  Anyway thanks for the info/advice.  It's purty much what I figgered, it's just good to get second opinions.  I might have a trade worked out, but nothing's final.

Thanks man,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 16:49:03 (ZULU)

Steve

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 17:12:49 (ZULU)

M/Cpl Aaron Perry - the Cdn Sniper from 3rd BN PPLCI (the one you mentioned) is more in shit more because he told a Padre (Chaplain) to fuck off than anything else.

At their OP there was a dead Tali and a sign was written on it "FUCK TERRORISM".

M/CPL Perry had already been recommened by US forces for the BSV for his action in theatre.

The Padre approached and commented on the sign on the body.

Aaron (from my understanding) then said "Fuck off"

He was then sent home from A'stan, and has been sitting around here, awaitimg his fate.

From my shoes - nothing he has done is wrong. And yes HE IS GETTING THE SHITTY END OF THE STICK - As the CF appears willign to hanging him out for fear of looking like it is covering up something (circa Somalia March 93)

If this was a peacetime drill - yeah telling a Capt (regardless of trade) to F off would be wrong - but it was not a peacetime trg ex...

Take Everything in context before you pass sentence.

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
CFB Edmonton, Alberta, Canada - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 17:27:41 (ZULU)

 I just got some info(little) on the thought of the disease as it relates to Alabama. They sent a new hunting guide that has some info in it. I'll just have to keep asking. All I want to know is if any related cases have been found here and are there any symptoms to look for.

 The legislature raised the fine on importation of live deer into Alabama. The new fine is $5,000. They cite CWD and bovine tuberculosis to be of concern. At least somebody in Montgomery is thinking about it.

Savage triggers;

  Any trigger is an improvement over the factory crap! I love my 10FP but the trigger sucked.

                       LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 18:11:06 (ZULU)

Took un-FUBAR'ed HBAR out today and left Win-ball home.

Used every type of ammo that I had...Wolf 62 grain, two types of reloads, Federal cheap stuff and Ultramax.

Used the same mag time after time and and it worked like a champ even though it is hotter than hell here in Southern Nevada.  Gun too hot to touch and still worked great even with the Wolf lacquer'ed ammo.

Didn't have one bobble, yesterday's problem definitely an ammunition problem

E-mailed Olin off their website and got a note from them that they will reply on Monday...

Dennis Hill <1armstronghill@lvcm.com>
Henderson, nv, usa - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 19:55:59 (ZULU)

Been out hunting again with the great big White hunter himself, Pete Lincoln. After the boar hunt from last week i really got the hunting virus aswell. Been going with 2 dutch guys and a German fella to Scotland with Pete and it must be one of the best places on Earth to Hunt. We had a very great time.

Bloody big mountains over there, and since my feet are still sore it feels like i have stalked over a 100 miles in 6 days.

We shot about 20 roe deer, 2 foxes and Pete also shot 2 red deers.

Only the German had a regular hunting rifle, the rest of us had all sniper rifles. I used my Sako TRG22, the others used a Sako TRG21, a Steyer SSG and Pete used his little shitty air rifle, a remington 700 with a Heym barrel of 20 inches and one of those pispour S&B PMII scopes...;)

Must admit, the bugger knows his shit about hunting, he got 7 roe's and 2 stags and o yeah, he also "shot" 5 rabbits with a new kind of rifle, its called a Volkswagen...I "only" got 4 roe's, but not bad for a first time, nice trofees. If i had my shit togehter i could have had me 9 of them, but stalking deer is a bit different than stalking humans with blanks...

I learned a lot though, hunting is a good way of training sniper skills, for instance, i personally learned i need to train more on offhand shooting, cause i am a pispour shot at short distances...i winged a buck at 40 yards...he took of for 300 yards with a broken leg, i followed it and suddenly ran in to him at 6 yards and shot him in the neck...felt lousy about the first shot. The other 3 i got nice and clean, shot one at 140 yards at an 30 degree angle downwards, right behind the shoulder, it dropped like a stone. The other 2 bucks i shot at 200 yards, one of them acros a valley, from one mountain to the other, and i learned another thing that day...don't shoot animals that are on another mountain, cause no-one else is gonna fetch it for you, had to walk all the way down, up the other mountain again, put the deer on my back and all the way down again...Those Hornady 165 grains SST's are pretty amazing, very accurate and good knockdown power.

And my ranging skills can use some training, mildots or not, was lucky that i brought along a LRF, but it kinda makes you lazy, cause it is so easy with those LRF's.

O, and i got to meet yet another Rosterfarian, Jon Beardsley. He visited us the last 2 days, a damn decent bloke and also a great hunter like Pete, only smarter, cause he has a decent scope on his stick, just like me a Nightforce NXS, instead of those S&B wanna-be scopes...;)

He brought along his Remington rifle done by Tooley, monster of a beast in 300 Winmag. Jon used the Nosler Ballistic tips, even better bullets, he shot a monster of a buck (really, really, really big one, with a biggest trofee i ever saw, must have been a silver medal at least...lol) with that 300 winmag right between the eyes, the head looked like Roger Rabbit after seeing that babe with big boobs for the first time...eyes popped out!

Discovered another thing, i need longer Harris bipods, cause the standerd one's are way to short and i am gonna sell my Harris BR ones aswell, no longer a need for short ones. Specially if your laying down between heather or bracken...9 out of 10 times i could not see the target because my rifle sunk inbetween the vegetagions. Pete had those big Harris ones, those you can shoot also sitting from, gonna get me a pair of those. And i liked the handle Jon had on his Swivel bipods, alot easyer than the standerd knob.

Last thing i learned, i got to much kit! All you really need is your rifle, a good binocular, a camelbag, the Leica LRF 1200 and a freekin sharp knife with a rubber handle and some rope. But must admit, my Spotting scope got some real good use, and the sniper saddle tripod Pete had made got used alot by me aswell.

In all, i had a bloody great time, and i am defeneatly gonna be doing alot more hunting with these blokes!

O, almost forgot, on the way back on the boat to the Netherlands, Pete and i caught another few trofee's in the disco onboard and yet again he beats me, even though i caught 2 trofees, his trofee was bigger than the both of mine but this time i did not mind to loose...mine were slim, white, under 20 and damned goodlookin...his was black, huge, and must have weighed a ton, hehehe. But she danced ok...and for a "vetsack" ol'Pete still can move his feet pretty well on the dance floor!

Cya around,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 20:49:39 (ZULU)

Bomb Mecca?  Destroy 40% of the world's oil production?  

Hey kids, let's incite holy war with a billion people, absolutely isolate ourselves politically, diplomatically and militarily, turn over all domestic political power to the Democrats and start the worst depression in history all in one bold motion.

???

That would never have occurred to me.  Not while I was sober, anyway.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 21:27:57 (ZULU)

You're just a party pooper, and don't know how to have a good time with 40 bombers on a Saturday night!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 22:45:41 (ZULU)

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 01:01:46 (ZULU)

To Mike Miller and Michael...Thanks for responding to my post.  I very much appreciate your input.  Mike, I have been following your postings on the Roster, along with the other regular contributors as well.  I have benefitted greatly from everyone's ideas and experiences.  Based on your recommendation, as well as some others, I will be using Black Hills 175 Gr. loads on my upcoming training cycle.  We will be shooting out to 1,000 yards and, I will have a chance to wring-out my rifle using these rounds. I have heard nothing but great things about  Mike's Barrels and, he has proven to be a guy who really cares about putting out the very best product he can. Thanks again.    Mike D  

Mike D <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 01:39:04 (ZULU)

Joe mentioned the peace dividend.  Has anyone also noticed how the LEA noticed it as well.  No metter how much crime dropped they hyped how bad the lawlessness was so they didn't get hit by the same dividend.  No slam on the LEAs, my daughter are one.  But a slam on the brain dead liberals that no not what they do and could care less.

BRogers and Catplugger, what is with the edited stuff.  How can I argue when you won;t give me soemthing to argue about?  :-)

Well simple postings from a simple guy.  Got new students next week and it is back to all day on the range in 90 to 100 + temps.  Love it!

Hold hard guys, Oh yeah hey Mike Rock, what was the original twist you put in the M24 barrels?  Inquiring minds want to know.  :-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, US of A - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 02:09:05 (ZULU)

It's the 'yote Bate's fault... he made me do it ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 02:25:12 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 02:43:54 (ZULU)

Announcing the return to the DR of the nanny of the net, the conscience of the community, the pacer of the pundits, the keeper of conventional wisdom, the confidant of the columnists.

Right here folks, on this Roster, right before your very eyes, you will be treated to dazzling displays of superior intellect, lectures in the art of playing-it-safe while disguising your true sympathies, and most importantly, the age-old secret showing how to foist your opinions upon the masses while slighting the opinions of others!

Let's just keep on sitting on the lid of this powderkeg that's quickly approaching critical temperature, keeping our eyes shut tight and our fingers crossed, all the while praying that the politicians and the pundits will make it all better.

Or should we try and get it all over with quickly, knowing that it's not going to improve by keeping the status quo. You never gain much out of life without bleeding a bit first. Oh, I almost forgot to say except for those hiding in the Universities. They never sacrifice a f***ing thing, and they never seem to bleed.

Take my advice folks, do it now or BOHICA later. Once you pickled off your first MER load of Mk117's, all the others are easy, trust me!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 04:10:44 (ZULU)

You have mail. No attachments.

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 11:19:03 (ZULU)

I know it's early in the morning, and I haven't had any food yet, and Ruggus Rattus is hiding somewhere, cuz he doesn't want to go to day-camp... so I'm not too bright this morning...

...but could you explain??  That went over my head.

-

Youz bumz that are going down to the SMTC match in Oct... watch out for that Ken Rascal... he has a NEW stick that is a whole can of whoop-ass!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 11:35:09 (ZULU)

What are the details of the SMTC match in Oct. Open to civilian shooters, etc.?

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 13:32:43 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 13:46:13 (ZULU)

 I'm thinking of putting a VXII 3-9x tactical on the spare stealth 223...saves a buck or two.  My reasoning is the dots will be familiar with the M3LR scopes on my .308s.  Am I on track here, or is there a difference between the designs that will complicate my life?  (The other 223 has a VXII 4-12 for wife's use).  Thoughts?  I just bought some rocks and minerals for the anniversery, so my discretionary cash is at ebb-tide.  I could always put gen-II in all of 'em someday too.

(Edit:  I already know about the 1/4 minute adjustments!)

On Bedding:

 I have read here of folks bedding HS precision stocks.  My question is where?  How?  Mine seems to fit very tightly, and the aluminum chassis is doing it's job OK.  With wood, I understand the principal--and relieving space for the bedding compound is straight-forward.  But synthetics?  I am ignorant of the techniques!  Just a dumb question from a non-'smith.  I used to just shoot 'em while someone else workie them!!!  Now, I'm playing catch-up on the maintenance side.

  I observed a USMC Detachment (tanker-types) shooting at Knox.  I will only say that at least one service still takes small arms proficiency seriously!  As I alluded to in an earlier post--the Army tiers our weapons training--some get more than most; but the Corps seems to hold one standard for all.  I was impressed...and the Army needs to re-think the differing standards.  The question should be, "wanna save money or lives?" and go from there, eh?  

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Home , at last, long roadtrip - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 13:55:16 (ZULU)

Just ran in from the pistol range where I am zeroing my M4 with Elcan.  At 50 yards with 55gr ball the thing is shooting .5 inch.  Had to grab some 69gr BTHP handloads.  Back to the range!!

Love this Elcan.  Fits real nice just forward or my ARMS folding rear sight.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:02:27 (ZULU)

If you aint tried an Elcan you should.  Love it.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:26:04 (ZULU)

It's open to anybody that has $125, and a stick... you can even leave the stick at home, and go watch the other guys shoot...

... but that like looking through the window a a cat house... not near as much fun!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:34:05 (ZULU)

Joe, email coming on an appointment with the recruiters for my son and bedding techniques from a well repsected gunsmith.

    Out of here.  Bill

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:42:23 (ZULU)

I'll go play someplace else for a while, 'til tempers cool down.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 16:10:01 (ZULU)

I responded to the WTC incident on Sept 11, 2001.  My experience was very tame compared to some of my peers, but I am still left with an image that will never go away.  Thousands of innocents killed, some of the best, bravest firefighters, police officers, EMS workers, and civilians with a bent to help others were crushed and twisted into fragments of flesh strewn for city blocks in all directions. Women, children, fathers, mothers....all dead, ripped to tiny pieces. If you haven't seen it, you cannot fathom what it was like...there is a smell, a taste, a permanant impression made that remains with you... it's not like TV, this is real, it changes the way you think.

As an American citizen, I unconditionally support any and all Canadian military personnel that assisted in the response to this attack.  War is a good place to send the politically correct, they either pull their heads from their asses or die... it is a crime that M/CPL Perry has to carry more than his fair share of the burden of freedom. I say give him a medal, a pay raise and a promotion and let him teach the next generation of fighters how to kill.. (That would be "kill" in the "bad" sense of the word, generally considered worse than "upset" as in "upset the terrorist's sensibilities")

Marco - I may take those worthless 6-9" Harris BR-S bipods off your hands...let me know what you want for em'.

Steve - I have a brother living in Cave Junction, OR...nice country if you don't mind wildfires with 5 mile long fronts traveling at 20 MPH with flames 40 feet in the air.... you forgot to mention that charming little feature.

kinder, gentler Lito' AND Yote bait?????  HUH????  What?  Are you kidding me?

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 16:32:46 (ZULU)

Come in Sweepman - Do you copy, over....

Chris:  I spent most of Saturday morning turning down my "new" Rem GMM unprimed .308 brass to 2.005".  The stuff was all over the place.  My right arm is now bigger than my left.  I didn't know this re-loading stuff was work.  Never made it to the range.  I'll e-mail you at work some other "observations" I had.

Jim Mitchell - Ground Zero.  

I've been trying to get my parents, sister and brothers to move from NJ to NC.  I keep telling them that we have lots of land, rifle ranges, forests, good hunting, fishing,  mountains, nice beaches.  But I do have two nuclear power plants on either side of me.  One just outside of Charlotte, NC and the other near Greenville.  Maybe thats why they haven't moved yet.  Ya reckon?

Alan says:  "Losing the war in Vietnam couldn't happen."

We lost the war in Vietnam???  But...we were winning when I left! {;-)

Just thought I'd drop in and see what's going on.  Same ol'good stuff. Guns, shooting, hunting, politics, corn flake pissing.

Rambosky - Over..............

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 16:59:12 (ZULU)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 17:01:21 (ZULU)

This looks more realistic:

http://opinionjournal.com/columnists/rbartley/?id=110002118  

Call me overcautious and move on to better things.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 17:07:59 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
Lena, Ill, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 17:14:17 (ZULU)

Match at STORM MOUNTAIN-- I spoke with my "neighbor" Rod Ryann this morning about Match sign-up and he indicated that ALL entries MUST be post marked today, August 12 to be considered.  So if you want to shoot you better get to the PO.  The match is open to anyone with $125 and a stick as 'lito said. Rod indicated that the firm deadline was based on having enough food and trophies.  I guess even after 25 years I don't fully appreciate what a second tier , backwater state West Virginia really is!

Rod    

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:01:30 (ZULU)

On a lighter note, Marius tells me he's about to post my review of the Leica LRF800 and 1200 rangefinders. It includes some pics through the rangefinder which some of you might find useful if you are thinking of buying one. Have ranged over 1000m hand held with it. Since the review I've finally managed to use it in fairly heavy rain and it worked great to 500 meters (550 yards to most of you). That was as far as I could see due to being surrounded by trees and in a hollow so I don't know how much farther it would go. I keep meaning to take it out in the rain to see just how far it will go, but somehow when it starts raining I get less curious...;-)

Mark D

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:04:17 (ZULU)

Go here for a brief description:

http://www.turners.com/turners/news_SCA12.php

Go here for the actual legislation and bill history:

http://info.sen.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=sca_12&sess=CUR&house=B&site=sen

Greg G

Greg Ghironzi <gregg@nbsgfg.com>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:05:36 (ZULU)

Guess I'll go watch. Don't even have an entry form to get in to the P.O. today. The last match in WV was a "shoot" only, no observers, hell, wouldn't even let me help herd the goats. If there's a list, or announcement board or sumpin', I'm missing it. I would enjoy the learning experience, if nothin' else, of any match within 5-600 miles of home. I'm goin to AEDC and meet Fatboy on 8/25. Try the 308 at 1000 yards. That'll be a first in that caliber for me. Takin' a couple deputies to the match to try their hand at somethin besides 9mm. This oughta be a hoot. Your parcel is on the way, priority mail.

later...

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:55:53 (ZULU)

 Give Rod a call and see if he'll take a late check.

 (304)446-5526

 The more shooters the better....besides these shoots are a great social events (there's going to be a pig roast).

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 19:06:20 (ZULU)

>"'lito-is there really a better place to play? "<

NO! This the place, the ONLY place, there is no OTHER place to play... well, maybe "Big Momma Jolean's" down by the river... but that's different ;))

-

John...

Lookin' forward to it... I will wear it with Kat Pride;))

Also... what Kevin (Andy's Dad) said.  Call Rod at SMTC, and ask him if you can Priority Mail the check... he's a pretty good guy, and may cut you some rythym on the date.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 19:36:44 (ZULU)

Went to the range yesterday (Sunday) nice morning kinda overcast.  As the sun broke through, the mirage came up so per the listings here, I dialed down on the power to cut through but then I noticed that as I dialed down from 16x to 10x I could very noticeably see that my heartbeat/pulse translate into my reticle.  Am I alone in this or is there a tech. to compensate?????

As for range time, I'm glad that the Active component gets to shoot and scoot.  I've spent many years here at Ligget baking, boiling and burning waiting to go down range and being denied the range time 'cause the tree huggers would not allow us to move our tanks 'cause we'd disturb the "Kit fox" while it was mating.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't want a 60 ton tank busting caps over my head while I was trying to get my groove on either =)

DAT

CDAT

JEDI

daniel flores <savage10fp@yahoo.com>
salinas, ca, usa - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 20:49:23 (ZULU)

By the way there is an Any Rifle – Any Sight match on Sunday, September 8, 2002, at Bridgeville Rifle club in Bridgeville Delaware.  Shoot 20 shots at 600 yards with 2 sighters.  You can shoot it F-class for practice.

The range is easy to find here is the link

http://www.bville-rifle-pistol.org/

Jerry

Jerry M <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, Maryland, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 21:22:24 (ZULU)

Check your e-mail re 1000 yarder on 8/25

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 21:54:44 (ZULU)

 Is the deer hunting event still planned? I haved clicked the link on your site and sent requests for some info. I haven't gotten anything yet. Maybe my messages ain't going through.

 Could you please send me some information if you have any? Also, how much of a trip is it from the Mobile area?

  THANKS

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 22:31:04 (ZULU)

 DAT or CDAT or Super-DAT is now Jedi?  Must be an A2 thing!  As a grunt, I only used those terms in the NCO club to get a little action going if the ladies were in short supply! Dem Tankers always rose to the bait!!!  Never used the term otherwise though.  Unless they broke out with "crunchies" or something!  Ha!  DAT or crunchy beats being "quartermaster" any day though, eh?

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
EC, WI, US - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 23:15:16 (ZULU)

Way back when I was much younger, went from being an MP in the regs. and jumped into the old M48 Patton tank.

DAT (for those who don't know) = Dumb Ass Tanker.  

Transitioned into the M60A3 and became a COMPUTERIZED Dumb Ass Tanker.  Only got as far as the M1IP but still earned the Grand Pubah of all Pubahs JEDI.  And the heavens parted and the angels sang.  Too old to tank anymore so I want to get into the Long Range Rifle.  However, if repetition is the mother of all learning, I don't want to keep repeating mistakes so I came to the place where knowledge and experience seem to abound.  If I can pick anything up it will be greatly appreciated.

daniel <savage10fp@yahoo.com>
Salinas, ca, usa - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 00:17:21 (ZULU)

How many LE snipers use mildot reticle scopes???

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 01:10:45 (ZULU)

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 01:14:36 (ZULU)

 Gooch, very few LEOs use Mil-Dot reticles in my neck of the woods.  I'm connected with a couple of the local SWAT organizations and their response is, "We don't need 'em 'cause we only shoot 100 yards."  The average level of equipment sophistication in this area is only slightly better than what you can buy at Wal-Mart.

 It isn't all the operators.  The budgeting people and the higher level administrative types don't even like the idea of SWAT so it's kind of a "red headed step child" until there's trouble.

 Sadly, the idea of LEO snipers only shooting 100 yards is intrenched and some "sniper" training organizations reinforce the notion.  I've been to big name LE schools where the subject of range estimation and mil-dots together get less than an hour of classroom time and then the wrong formulas are given.  When I quietly told the instructors after class they responded, "We'll have to check on that." while rolling their eyes with that, "You're only a civilian what could you possibly know about sniping?"

 There will be no joy in saying, "I told you so." when some criminal that's been to Quantico or Stone Bay dominates a situation in a jurisdiction where SWAT snipers "only shoot 100 yards".

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 02:20:24 (ZULU)

"MIL dots is for Military"

IF they was for LE they would be called.

COP DOTS.

Let us pray!

The Lord is my Sheperd and so is my scope.

It maketh me to hunker down in green pastures.

It showeth me the right path through one small hole.

Surely ridicule will fall upon my reticle,

until I seek to use the mighty football !

                                   AMEN

Speakin of criminals that's been to Quantico, where IS Rick tonight.

I need him to read some more scripture.

See why I delete my posts! :).....

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 03:34:48 (ZULU)

You cracketh me up... you do it more better than anyone ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 04:05:56 (ZULU)

I have heard the same things from LE and Military guys that poo poo civies for shooting.  The they ask how I became a fair shot and I reply that the civies taught me.  Look out for a guy who spends every week end shooting his HP weapon and loads his own. Give him some 8541 skills and we LE are in a hell of a bind.

Bottom line is EGO DOES NOT REPLACE ABILITY!

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 04:48:06 (ZULU)

Steve VanSlyke <svfcpud@rcabletv.com>
Republic, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 05:10:03 (ZULU)

RE: Mildots for LE

I do not use Mildots on my dept. issued rifle, not cause I didn't want em but because the bean counters didn't want to spend the extra dollars so I'm stuck with a leupold 3x9x40 tactical with a duplex reticle and had to talk my ass off to get them to spend the money on that. I use my own laser range finder and have my come-ups taped to the rifle stock. I guess I do the best I can with what I got. The only redeeming thing is that I have a generous ammo budget so I get to shoot as much as I want. I have heard all the reasons why LE snipers only need to train out to 100 yards cause the average shot for us LE snipers is only about 75 yards. IMHO this is a bunch of crap so I shoot out to 600 yards with the departments 308 and out to 1000 with my own 300WM. Statistically I may never need to shoot past 100 yards but I know damn well that if I am ever confronted with a situation where a longer shot is needed I've practiced it and I can do it.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 05:23:46 (ZULU)

I have loaded up some 178s, but havent shot them as yet.  I am trying to get a load that will match the come-ups for the 190 load.

Probably be a week or two before I shoot them.

-

Robert...

>"I have heard all the reasons why LE snipers only need to train out to 100 yards cause the average shot for us LE snipers is only about 75 yards"<

I think it's bunch of crap too... a very famous shooter once said:

"I used to think 300 yards was a real tough shot, until I started shooting at 1000.  Now, 500 yards is a chip shot!"

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 11:16:17 (ZULU)

I'll call first thing this AM. I had to check in at work and missed your last post.

Undude...

I tried to give our county council 50K in training funds for LE about 2 years ago. All they had to do was agree to pay the guys training pay, instead of burnin their vacation time. The deal fell thru. The county attorney supposedly nixed it. Said we don't need to send 'em to mercenary school. So now I send 'em thru the local FOP. The hell of it is, our main administrator (sheriff) has been shot in the line of duty and returned fire, and still thinks gadgets will replace training.

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 11:24:43 (ZULU)

>'Said we don't need to send 'em to mercenary school."<

This attitude is growing across the country, as towns look on LE as a money generating unit of town accessors office, that occasionally makes arrests.

In my town, their major job is writing summons'... if there is a real crime, they are nada.  I got a bullet hole through one of my windows (just behind this computer), and they couldn't even tell what direction it came from... I had to do the stick test FOR THEM!!

The local "SWAT" guys shoot at my favorite range, and they typically do 3" groups at 100 yds, and are very happy with that performance.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 11:46:27 (ZULU)

Better put that 'puter in the basement w/ the reloading bench.:)))

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:18:57 (ZULU)

That reminds me of the economist who drowned in the lake with the average depth of 18 inches.

The mean is no problem, but the standard deviation will bite you on the ass.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:34:04 (ZULU)

And it's that right hand side of the bell curve that will f*ck you in the ass!

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:48:10 (ZULU)

Wish they would, wish they could.

Here in my part of Tx the rural guys can easily be confronted with the need for the over 100 yard shot, at ranges not unreasonable for engagement in a hostile or hostage situation.  

More importantly, the freakin wind ALWAYS blows here ( we figure it's because Okla sucks....but that's anecdotal)and shooting distance can be a real chore.

Training several local LE units, and groups of swat types, even the big city guys, we've found that it's nearly impossible in a full week evolution to get these people further back than 300 yards.  They simply cannot absorb the instruction, or refuse to.  2MOA 300 yard groups are bragging rights to these people, and that is of great concern.  Practice is not part of the vocabulary, and God forbid handloads should be discussed.

Skills past tirgger pulling are not highly valued, outside of 5 very good LE shooters I know in an area populated by 4 million people.  

I've had the local SD guys tell me " Mr. McDonald, when we come into your neighborhood, we always leave a deputy up on the hill over there with a Mini-14".

So I ask " does he know it's 478 yards from my door to his shiney white hiney?"

We did spend an hour going over range card principals after that.

Maybe there is hope after all.

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:54:58 (ZULU)

Criminal?  Hey man, don't mix me up with those jarheads!  Never went to Q' town's school for thugs.  Just an old army puke.  :-)

I have been told that if you tell a lie long enough then it becomes the "truth".  The average LE sniper shot is (fill in the blank). Actually the average LE sniper shot is not known for any given area. If you have air ports, strip malls, factory areas, etc, then you had better plan on that shot and not the average (fill in the blank)shot.  Mil Dots can do so much more then just ranging and seem to be a minor aid in shooting movers, holding for winds, snap shoots, etc.  Oh well, talking shooting to non-shooting admins can, as all of you know, be an exercise in patience and stress.  We just keep chipping away at them and let them know of the possible liability of not having the correct equipment and training to function on an acceptable level of expertise.  Hell it is worth a try, this puts the bean counters back on the defensive and having to justify NOT spending the money.

Kevin (Andy's Dad) - As you saw from some of the talks at the MD symposium, many ofhte so called experts have problems keeping the facts straight.  The idea is to convince the others that you, the instructor, knows more and has the correct information.  It may not be true but perception is 90 per cent of the game.  That is why, once writen down in a book, many authors are not willing to back off of a stupid statement because it ruins that perception.

An interesting thought that I wish I had made up but did not.  There is a gap between knowledge and skill.  That gap is filled by experience through practice and training.  Having knowledge of a task is not the same as performing.  Having knoweldge of making a 75 yard head shot is not the same as making a 500 yard chest shot.  Wind moves bullets, sometimes a little sometimes alot!

OK enough of my BS will end it now and give Bill a chance to throw bombs my direction.

Hold Hard Guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 13:16:03 (ZULU)

You have mail. No attachments.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 13:58:10 (ZULU)

http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002122

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 14:22:18 (ZULU)

Man, that guy can ramble around a subject forever... does the WSJ pay by the word?  Even though I knew where he was going, I just quit after about 2/3rds.

But I do think he's right in most, if not all of what he is presenting, and it is probably why we are already bogged down after less than a year.

This is going to be a LOoooong war.

-

This is a very good (and FAST) read... worth it.

http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtml?a=2002/8/4/034011

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:01:02 (ZULU)

Moe

http://www.stormmountain.com/northeast.php  (West Virginia)

http://www.stormmountain.com/south.php  (Mississippi)

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:08:21 (ZULU)

He's right too, that knowledge and skill thing!

I had a fella once argueing that thing with me. He thought a degree was all that was needed for success in everything. I told him.

"If you go to college and study the 1911 .45 auto and get a degree in it. You know everything there is to know about it origin, construction and maintenence and how to hold it sight it and load it.. but you never shoot it. Then you get in a gunfight with a expert marksman who's knows nothing about the 1911 but how to shoot it... what are your chances?"

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:20:18 (ZULU)

I showed him my last George built rifle painted in typical ugly but if you sat it down you would lose it fashion.  He told me it was all wrong and asked me what I thought of his rifle.  Well I hate to kick puppies so I did not say anything but asked why he put the flash hider on a LE sniper rifle. His reply was "So no one sees me when I shoot"  I almost spewed right there but still did not say anything.  I could tell he really wanted me to say he was so smart but was not going to get into a pissing contest with this one.  He kept pushing sop I finally told him "You have outsmarted both the USMC and US Army.  Let me know how well it works for you"

The scope was a duplex.  He had not had any real training but man his ego told him he was better than anyone on here.  That was long but what I was thinking is it shows a mindset in LE that is all wrong.  The members want equipment to solve problems in performance.  He only knew as much as the idiot or BS artist that had his ear had told him.

What I see is lots of cool equipment. Damm I hate the color black anymore! LOts of press and not much gas in the tank.

Hard work and training are what makes a team.  Not just equipment.  I know I am probably repeating myself but twenty years ago, when I got into SWAT I had two LT's for the teams.  One was all spit and polish with great looking paper plans.  Big names and ideas.  The other was an EX RVN era SF trooper who did most of his planning for us in a sand box.  Damm that guys needed dirt to come up with a plan in. Now let me tell you the admin thought Mr. Paper was the bomb but Lt been there was the guy I quickly came to want to follow.  NO fancy this or that just do it and work as a team.  The teams back then had crummy equipment and lots of heart and drive.  Now well I am old and cant stand the new attitude and watching them try and move with 8000 lbs of gear on.

Rant off

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:49:13 (ZULU)

The good ones recover and come back asking for knowledge.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 16:11:39 (ZULU)

OK, NOW I'M RUNNING FOR COVER!!!

Running Hard!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 16:23:32 (ZULU)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 16:37:53 (ZULU)

You inflict squalid, meaningless deaths on them and make them appear ridiculous to potential recruits.  Exterminate them as if they were rats at the dump.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 17:08:55 (ZULU)

I have to agree with you. The "cool guy" factor infects a great many P.D.'s in this country. They feel they aren't a real police department unless they have a STR, ERT, SWAT etc. etc. of their very own. Mant times what you get is under-trained, over equiped, dangerous officers. The little response team in my home town was sub-par at best. But they had black nomex PJ's, MP 5's, and cool sniper rifles (even though they had not had a serious felony type violent crime as long as I can remember) The last time they called out the ERT team was for an un-armed car theif that took off on foot and was trying to hide in a drainage pond.

But, that's not to say that there are not extremely well-trained ones either, but they are few and far between.

mistah Gooch, of the LE shooters that I know, some have MD, and of those, less than half know how to use them properly. But military snipers use Mil Dots, so they have to be good!!!!!! That's the mentality

Later Dudes (and Undudes)

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 17:26:41 (ZULU)

 I love that analogy!  Degree vs. experience!  With your permission, I'd like to use a variation with my LTs that already know everything! Of three sheepskins--History comes in handy the most--if only to apply perspective to CDC's advanced thoughts...of that, Philosophy of Critical Thought was all the classroom I really needed.  I deal with newly commissioned geniuses--they know it all already.  I used to tell em to go ahead and die--cos they don't need to experience anything if they already have the answers.  I'd rather tell 'em about yer' .45 auto comparisson though--cuts right through the chase!!!  Hey--youth is wasted on the young!  

Joe (edited for spelling; I have no degree in literacy!:)

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Lacrosse, WI , TDY as usual - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:01:52 (ZULU)

"More importantly, the freakin wind ALWAYS blows here ( we figure it's because Okla sucks....but that's anecdotal)"

You mean us Okies have been wrong all this time.  We thought the wind was from all those bragging Texans.  (That too is anecdotal) :-)

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
Okla, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:07:53 (ZULU)

 I was guilty of know-it-allism in the eighties too.  As with most newly graduated hard-corps killers of evil and defenders of the oppressed--hey lookie at me--I am a green felt wearin' (ok I'll stop here)--I thought the Q-course put in me on the top plane of life.  It took almost a year and one ass-whuppin from my Team SGT for me to realize that the real learning had only just begun!!!  

But it was the boot in my ass that finally woke me up.  It embarasses me to no end to look back on that year!  

Mike--You owe it to the kid to bust his bubble---he will either respond or weed out, either way, the team is better for it!!!

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Onalaska, WI, I-git-around - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:19:41 (ZULU)

Thanks for the link. His argument is accurate, though pedantic.  Regardless, it will not be understood by a majority of Americans.  We have to trust that the 'spin-doctors' can make the the case for ensuring the war on terrorism continues.  If it takes more than a few seconds to understand or explain, most people tune out.

Shooting question: does anyone have experience with 'Corbon' ammo?

Just thinking of trying something different.........

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:39:24 (ZULU)

Trying to train a pistol shooter who tells you, "I've been doing this for thirty years" while missing consistently and keeping his finger on the trigger is futile.  Trying to explain how people actually interact in business to a newly minted MBA is just as bad.

Mike Miller learns something from every class he teaches, and he has education and experience to spare.  

There's no substitute for taking the training and there's no substitute for doing the time.  This applies to anything.

I'll shut up for a few days.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:53:24 (ZULU)

CDC, thanks for the kind words.  Hope all is well.

For the guys not knowing old Bravo is still around and doing very well.  Talked with him about two weeks ago.

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 19:29:08 (ZULU)

But.........don't forget natural ability.  Some people can run faster, shoot straighter, think quicker, learn faster than others no matter how much education, training and expierence they get.  

Two cents if you need it or not.

Rambosky

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 19:31:28 (ZULU)

About a year ago we had a domestic escalate into a hostage situation when the patrol deputy pulled into the drive and the suspect let off a round.  when I got there two city police officers were on there bellies in the front yard in the grass with ther shotguns about 30 yards from the door with no cover or concealment.  I was gillied and using topograghy to cover my approach to my hide 50 yards from the front door under a large pine tree.  I told the city guys get some cover and fall back, I guess they did not like having a lowly county deputy telling them what to do they decided to stay, and told me "we are fine if this ass hole sticks his head out we will shoot it off"  ok what ever.  they stayed until the rest of our team was in place either concealed or behinde ballistic cover, and one of ther LT's told them to leave.  negotiations went up and down he finally gave up and came out. assault team went in a cleared the rest of the house.  Our assault team leader is a rifle guy, he came out and told me this guys house was full of highpower trophies and lots of M1A's several of which were out fully loaded.  during suspect debriefing he stated "those guys in the front yard were only alive because he thought about his kids" or somthing like that.

this guy commited suicide a few weeks later with pills and vodka, hate to say it but glad he did it that way and not in a blazing gun battle that could have been really ugly!!

Also glad to see I an not the only person you has a range card of ther house and neighborhood.  what my neighbors dont know wont hurt them.

not all LEO's only shoot out to 100 yards. new guys always ask me "how can I shoot better at the 50 yard line"? same answer every time "shoot at the 100 yard line" (talkin pistols here) always get the same blank stare.  dont worry about the "sniper" who carrys a ruler to measure his groups worry about the one that carrys a dial caliper.  by the way the new stick shot a .408 thousanths 300 yard group the other day    love that new barrel.

c ya

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 19:52:54 (ZULU)

"You mean us Okies have been wrong all this time.  We thought the wind was from all those bragging Texans.  (That too is anecdotal) :-)"

Anyone knows that after the first dozen beers  we Texans tell only the truth.......we just explain it in great detail so it sounds like bragging.

BTW, what part of the Sooner state?  I still have a place on Keystone lake and down in McCurtain county.

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 20:07:46 (ZULU)

CDC; I don't think anyone would disagree that training helps for sure. Those who have it are experiencing the mistakes and ideas of others.

It would be a shame if the last words a gunfighter said were," I'm trained and your not!"

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 20:55:23 (ZULU)

Yup... nothing less glorious than a grubby life, and a stupid death to end the "martyr/Hero" syndrom.

Speaking of lousy countries going down the tubes... go here for some interesting news...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10316-2002Aug12.html

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:14:52 (ZULU)

That reminds me, I've got to have Andy mow the kill-zone.

;-)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:29:58 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:38:50 (ZULU)

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:51:43 (ZULU)

GOOCH:  Got a Loopy MK 4 w/ dots on my city stick. Most don't. Money and training time (money again). Same ole shit forever ... you know the deal.

GUYS:  Kind of a push lately in the circles I hang with for the Hornady TAP 168 AMAX for open air cop stuff. Got a couple boxes to T/E.  It's shooting like a house afire (1/4-1/2) min. in the guys sticks.  What do ya'll think ?

Trying to find something better than Gold Medal Match for over penetration issues.  Still need the accuracy but terminal ballistics on people and not paper is more the focus. Several guys have taken shots w/ GM that went through folks heads but then just kept on a going - like through car doors and buildings. Just trying to find something better than the match loading, in a factory round, to try and keep from hurting folks that don't need hurting in the city environment.  Not everybody will seek cover or evac when the SWAT guys are out.  Hey !!! fire up the pit ! the cops are putting on a show.  ziiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnngggg !!!   he hee.

CIVIES/MIL/LE:  Wasn't it the NRA that got the military guys shooting programs headed on the right track, way back in the day ? You guys can shoot with me any time. The older I get the less I know but ... I am a damn handsome man, chicks dig me and that does cover a multitude of sins.  

Hey too, I need a pair of desert altamas just to ghillie up. Second hand is just fine.  Size 9 Reg.  You numbah one GI. Can hook me up cheap cheap ?

Take care guys,

Oh, HDR, they ain't got no ancedotals down here in this part of Texas.  They's up in the Panhandle where it's flat.

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 22:12:36 (ZULU)

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 22:18:07 (ZULU)

if the conditions in CA are as dry as they are here in TN, you betta have him keep that flash suppressor off or you double timin' away from the next televised wildfire.  ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 22:27:31 (ZULU)

>"Ya'll do society a favor and try and teach 'em something when you can."<

HA!... Double HA!!  A civilian teach an LE about shootin'... you gotta be jiving this ol' boy...

Everybody knows that LE are born knowing ALL about guns and that kinda stuff... least wise up this way.

Them listen to a civy?  HA!

And... >"I am a damn handsome man,"<

More HA!  You dog-ugly, jus' like CDC :))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 23:22:59 (ZULU)

Hey heard a new one from the street.  Ya'll ever heard of a patooey rag ?

I stopped a whore that had this rag hanging out of her Daisy Duke pocket.  Figured it was for swattin' away the west nile skeeter bugs while she was OTJ.

Wrong.  When I asked she sez ...

"When I get done with a guy I just break out the rag and PATOOEY !!!!"

...

oh my god.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 23:40:04 (ZULU)

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 00:10:01 (ZULU)

 I have used the Hornady A-MAX 168gr (not the TAP version) out to 600yds, and they have performed extremely well with results similar to yours (1/4 to 1/2 MOA). I do not have any experience with the terminal balistics though.

LOA

LOA <lmann@chem.wayne.edu>
MI, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 00:27:45 (ZULU)

That's okay. These flat plains are just fine with me. High altitude and low humidity and today it was real COOL ... in the 70s AND NOOOOO HUMIDITY. Besides, I'd whole lot rather Bake than BROIL anyday. You can have all that humidity.

Where I live, Jim's reference to a FPF household rangecard is VERY viable. CRP grass all around. You can do some serious LONG RANGE shooting around here. Flat country? Yes....and loving it too. People stay away by the thousands ;)) You can bounce all the 308s, 338s and 50s around here (in certain places ) and nobody bothers you.

Where else can you do that?

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 01:45:28 (ZULU)

Damn.  Alabama too far for ya?

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 01:49:32 (ZULU)

Got a call from the dispatcher at 2:40 something AM on a Saturday now morning.  Owner of a business (who lives upstairs above his business) calls and wants to file a traspassing warrant.

Seems like a visiting out of town businessman and a "street whore" were doing "it" in his back parking lot.  

Since he was determined to press charges, we had to take the "out of town" businessman and the street whore to 2nd District HQ for booking.

Now get this.. I asked for ID from the businessman, dirvers licence: John B. Smith (Names changed to protect the guilty)DOB, address, etc.

Now the street whore: Drivers licence: Billy R. Jones, DOB, address..etc..and a picture of a "GUY" a fxxking "GUY"!!!!!

When the businessman realizes this he got real pale and fell out of his chair hyperventalating.

Billy really did a good job on his makeup and had a nice ass, but it was now 3:30AM and I was getting tired and my eyes were blurring.  No, I didn't ask for his phone number.

Some where there is a businessman who will never again go to 14th Street NW looking for "love" in all the wrong places. (No pun intended.) {;-)

Rambosky

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 02:09:55 (ZULU)

  Thanks for the info. I'll try to get up there to the festival.

         LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 02:52:22 (ZULU)

http://www14.inetba.com/tandtreloading/index2.ivnu

Has anyone dealt with them?  If so, how are they?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 02:55:44 (ZULU)

Cops and 100 yard shots.

Was shooting one of those AR targets that are for setting the sights at 300 by shooting at 35 yards. It's a 3" man silouette. Was gonna compare my .223 coyote gun to that Bushy just for fun. The bush did 5 shots in .5 inch but spread em to 2" by the tenth shot.

Anyway

I fired 6 shots at the head (.5inch head) and cut a ragged hole .35" in the head. The seventh shot split a LC Military case right in the middle and went .75 inches low. I told my Grandson the would bee, "You see there grasshopper, that's why cops don't shoot more than 100 or 2 yards if they don't have too." IF you blow that thing to 500 yards and no wind with perfect ranging all those 6 rounds are in the head of the perpetrator. That last one is in the head of the hostage.

I been wondering what a split case would do to a precision shot. Just thought ya'll might be interested.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 03:08:06 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 03:16:51 (ZULU)

Made my point to the folks I needed too.  We won.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 03:32:11 (ZULU)

of course by CDI factor I mean:

C hicks

D ig  

I t

Actually most SWAT type are motivated to be the best and believe in what they do.  some just let the ego get in the way.  Ego is a very important aspect of being an operator.  You have to believe you're the best because if you don't think you're better then the guy you're after then why are you going after him?  Ego just needs to be a controlled item and controlled ego's come with age and experiance.

Right now I'm not on a spec team  I'm on our depatments range staff as a colateral duty right now, trying to keep these folks proficient (that's a whole other topic and rant).  My primary job of late is...(everybody sitting down).....Traffic.  I do the collisions and lots of tickets....Oh well.  I have stayed in the rifle shooting scene for fun and share the range with the SWAT snipers of several departments.  Off the top of my head I can think of two or three in the county that can shoot with me or better. The common thread between us is we really practice and our gear is tested and used before being deployed.  It's all simple and if it won't work it won't go to the field.  You'll see us hanging around the bench shooters and hunters chatting it up because a lot of these guys know how to get great performance from their equipment and have sound stalking methods.  Not to mention some of those guys can just plain shoot! The younger super macho guys stick to themselves and tend to have compounded training.  They keep expanding on the circle of training they know.  If one is good at something they all get good at that topic.  If one is bad but presents his side well then they all get bad together but think they are good.  They will learn with experiance.  They keep trying to get us to go with all the bells, whistles and doo-dads.  They just can't understand why we keep our stuff so simple and straight forward.  They will learn.  The best advice is teach by example and if they see you are kicking their butts they will start to pay attention.

They will learn....help them along even at the cost of their pride and your frustration.            

Keep safe,

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, Cali, US of A - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 04:05:45 (ZULU)

You can only think of two or three shooters in the country that can shot at your level.

With a head that big you must drive a convertable.

That is a pretty arrogant statment given the level of experience and training that a few of the people on this site have under there belt.

If you are ever in Oklahoma City  come by the Oklahoma County Sheriff training center. We have an 800 yard range, maybee you can show us how it is done.

A little humility never hurt anyone.

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 06:50:11 (ZULU)

If all the shooters in you county are that good. I commend the training staffs there and the dedication to the position of the offciers.  Although I think there are some very dedicated personnel around here I totally believe they have been left out on training but have no idea they are behind in the curve.  Ego has a lot to do with that but so does the command that continues to pay lip service to the the shooter by always telling him he's best without insisting he actually be the best.   It's not uncommon to see some of the local guys take a 100yd shot at a 1" circle and not hit it.  This happened earlier this year at the range.  out of 12 of us on the line, shooting prone, only 4 of us kept the impact in the circle.  This was not a stress course or even timed for that matter and the guys were all using the rig they carry on the street.  

The point I was trying to make was not how wonderful I am but how the shooteres can be very mistrained and misled.  If they don't seek outside infomation and training for all types of situations they have a big problem on their hands like it or not, know it or not.  I have tried, with some of my shooting budddies, to talk to some of the shooters.  I'm sure you have ran into the "I'm SWAT you not, I know best' attitude.  Then it's just a waste of our time.  But we have gotten a few guys to start exchanging a ideas and practicing with us.  One of the guys I think can out shoot me is someone that a year ago couldn't touch me.  He thought he was awsome at the time.  After a few "lessons" and he started asking questions and learning.  He has turned into a very good shooter now in a lot more ways than just hitting bulls and is trying to pass the experiance on to those that want it.

Well I've taken up way to much band width and I sincerly mean I was not trying to blow my own horn, I was just calling a dog a dog.  I wouldn't mind checking out that range of yours (how far from Hobart is it I have family there I visit every blue moon or so).  We can only dream of an 800yd LE range here.  We have to go to a private range to get as far as 300 around here and the 1000yd range is also private and about a 2hr drive.  As far as the convertable goes...I have a hard top I used to race NHRA brakets with (still runs in the 10's in street trim).  The convertables just don't stand up the ponies as well....body flex ya know.

Elvis has left the building.

Joe S.              

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, Cali, USofA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 08:13:25 (ZULU)

Sometimes, things said on this site come out misunderstood, or read a tone that wasn't intended... sometimes we type something that should have a " ;) " at the end of the statement, but doesn't!... or the tone of the comment is skewed cuz the wifie is on your case, the kids are nagging you for a new computer game, work has been shitty all month, your divorce lawyer has told you that you are going to lose... any number of reasons.

You guys quit taking pot shots at each other, or you are going to have to go to your rooms with NO milk and cookies (and without your keyboards)!

Now quit it, cuz I said so!!

And remember this...

"Yo' Mama!"  :))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 11:03:57 (ZULU)

i got your boar tusks by the way.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 11:12:22 (ZULU)

Check out the link below to Mid South Shooting Supplies. I don't know what supplies your're lookin for, but 175 SMKs' are cheaper at Mid South by almost $3.00/100

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 11:49:14 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:05:49 (ZULU)

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:14:56 (ZULU)

I've heard this phrase quite a bit over the last few years when LEOs talk about sniper ammunition.  Having a more military mindset myself I always figured "Over Penetration" was like being too tall to play basketball.  If this is a serious consideration, and we all know cops never shoot further than 100 yards, why not go 5.56 with say a 52 grain MK.  I don’t think that would exit the old melon.  "Ah" you say, "What about shooting through glass?"  I would suggest the good old SS109 for that task or go back to your golf bag and get your .308.  Besides, shooting BGs through glass is a sucker's bet.

Ref: Fixed Fortifications

MedicJim, If we're about to get over-run the family knows the safe lanes through the perimeter wire and it ain't a FFP on the household range card it's FPF. ;-)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:16:01 (ZULU)

        Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:26:01 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:43:28 (ZULU)

Joe; and Jim sorry!, but it was tooooo funny to spill the beans.

Who the hell ever said us Okies can read right anyway! You punks made my day! How come it is that the funniest stuff that happens is always supposed to be serious? Or maybe it just seems that way to me.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:57:23 (ZULU)

Geez all these tears for LE not having funds for MilDots or training.   All my NYC LE friends are claiming they have a windfall of cash with all these Homeland Security and Recovery funds available.  They are actually complaining about too much OT.

Recieved a sponsor list for the SMTC match.  Nice prizes, an FN 308, a 50 cal, suppressors, barrels, scopes and other equipment.  I've got my fingers crossed.

Some interesting articles on equipment and lessons learned in Afghanistan:

http://www.sftt.org/afghanlessons_files/frame.htm

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 13:39:02 (ZULU)

We had the novices take it in turns to go out with the very experienced estate Stalker, Stuart. just to give them a chance to learn a little, I think they all enjoyed the experience, 1 guy went with Stuart each morning and evening and the rest where given an area to stalk. first night we got 3 bucks, the begining of the week proved to be difficult because the mature bucks weren't showing, i figured they where layed up having a mid rut break, we saw plenty of females and yearling bucks, out on the open hill it was possible to see mature bucks chasing does, but among the trees we just didn't see em. the weather was perfect for rutting but activity was a little slow, it started to pick up mid week, spotting he bucks from afar of vantage point and then stalking in proved to be the best method, the guys out with Stuart where getting a Buck or two (as was I) but other wise still a little slow. By wednesday every one had been out with Stuart, so I went along for a day out, passed up the chance to shoot a couple of good bucks, i figured that they should be left for the others, providing they could be found again. Then we saw a herd of Red Stags, sillouette them selves on a distant mountain side, we swapped the landrover for an 8 wheel go any where machine and drove away trying to get 2 hills away with the intention of stalking back and coming in from above the stags, we got about as far as we could drive and then more stags appeared on the hill we where headed for, so we dismounted and headed up a ravine in an attempt to cut the stags off at the pass, we got about a 3/4 mile up this ravine and the stags had dropped down almost on top of us, so we had to crawl up the steep bank sides of the ravine, trying to get into a shooting possition, that proved difficult to do with out getting seen, the stags where on a convex hill side and our only cover was heather about 10 inches deep , or the ravine side, after trying a few places for a clear shot I finaly got into about the riht place, but the harris bipod was to long for the awkward angle i needed to shoot at, so the Steiner Bino's made a good make shift bipod, I took the shot on my very first ever Scottish hill Stag( a nice 10 pointer) at about 70m, he ran a few meters and dropped, trying to pick the right stag out of a herd of about 200 is not particularly easy, neither is stalking close to them, it sounds easy to shoot a stag out of such a big group, but you ain't stalking just any stag, your stalking a particular one and all the rest are his body guards. We got the stag gutted and i was blooded ( a Scotts custom of smearing the stags blood on the face of the hunter) the I gragged the beast of the hill and down to the machine, we got him taken back to the larder and sorted out and headed back out to try for another(this was now about 5 hours later), we decided to try and get above the stags by driving up the next valley and stalking over the hill, but be bumped a small group of stags as we drove up the valley in the landrover, we dismounted again, gave them 10 moinutes to disapear and calm down, and then set off in hot persuit, up another ravine. nearing the summit we could see antlers skylined, we did the next 300m on our bellies trying to get as close as possible without bieng seen, i was leading the stalk/crawl and I got us within 200m. found a good position and Stuart picked out a stag, which promptly sat down and went to sleep, we waited, and waited, then anoher group of stags joined the group we where watching, we estimate the total number of stags in from of us to be over 600, i counted to 200 and that was about a third, the stags started milling about with each other and i couldn't get a clear shot at my target beast, so i slipped back and down the hill to the left, crawling back forward onto a small knoll, Stuart joined me and was spotting again for me, we agreed on the location of the desired beast and i got ready to take the shot, the deer began a slow walk to the right and i took the shot as soon as a safe opening in the herd appeared. Stag number 2 dropped at the shot. Stuart went to fetch the machine and I gutted the stag, and sat admiring a most breathtaking view over the Angus Glens.

The guys where gradualy getting into the spotting deer excersise and where begining to do quite well, several stalks, some marathon stalks, and one or two busted stalks or missed deer. Marco spotted a buck from over 1200m away, raced to get close and picked up the bavarian guy on the way, when the Bavarian missed the buck twice, Marco shot it. I called a buck in, pretending to be a doe on heat, and I also had a 1200 + m stalk, up a ravine, to take a kneeling shot on the fully extended harris at 200m.

Jon Beardsley turned up to visit on Thursday and we had an interesting evening in the rain together,attempting to call a Buck, a roe kid/fawn was prancing about along a tree line just over a ravine, all of a sudden its ears went back and it shot of like lightening, about 2 mins later Jon spotted a nice fox, just behind where the fawn had been, we figured the fox might have been stalking the fawn and wondered where the fawns mother was (probably getting covered by a Buck), i shot the fox and we headed down off the hill.

next morning Jon and I went out as a team again, after dropping the last of the others off, we spotted a deer way off on the opposite hill side, jon (with his super spotting scope) confirmed it was a buck, so we drove the car down the trakc as near as we could and then headed of on a stalk through the trees, picking our way up the hill to the spot where we had seen the deer, we emerged from the treeline to far right and had to drop back and move left, making our way out of the tree line we get set up near a fence. Weglassed the area, but couldn't see anything, Jon began calling, then so did I, taking it in turns calling and glassing, a doe turned up about 15m away, she just appeared out of the bracken, we froze and she didn't know what we where, we dressed like a bush and the wind was right, she stayed in front of us for a while and moved left to be with her fawn, we carried on calling, a buck chasing a doe came over the top of the hill, the buck stopped and the dow ran on a bit, only to be picked up by another buck, as ifby magic, deer appeared form all over, then we saw the buck we where after, chasing a doe out of the bracken up on the hill side, jon was callingb the range for me and i got set up for the shot, muzzle through the damn rabbit wire, i couldn't get a shot without my barrel touching the wire, so Jon cut a large enough hole in the fence to give me some clearance,jon called the range (just under 200m) and I took the shot, I hit the buck but he didn't go down, shoot again, Jon said, i shot, but my barrel was hard against the fence(and i scratched it too) so the shot went wide and high, the buck took his last breath and fell where he stood. Jons dogs helped me fing him in the waist deep heather.

I realy enjoyed hunting and sharing a couple of drinks with all these guys, it was great to stalk with Jon, and we all had a lot of fun together, you couldn't have hunted with a nicer bunch of guys.

Weeks total was: 20 Roe Bucks, 2 Red Stags, 2 Foxes (and the rabbits Marco mentioned)

and whilst we are on the subject of Marco, if there was ever a natural born hunter, that cloggie sod is him, he's been bitten by the hunting bug and he will do well at it.

Lessons learned:

1. I need a spotting scope and some rain gear from Arktis.

2. Harris bipod is far superior to the versa pod, after trying one out on Joe's SSG and the scimilar thing on Vals TRG,you couldn't get me to put one on anything but a light machine gun.

3. Remember to put repellant on your ass, cos the darn midges will bite it when you take a crap if you forget.

4. When the stalker tells you that you are a great target shot but a shit shot on deer, don't bite, cos he's been trying to convince you to take kneck shots all week(without success) and is trying to wind you up cos he's had to much whiskey, just answer him with a question, "exactly how many deer have I missed, wounded or lost this week?"and that would have shut him up.ha, the Jock sense of humour..??

Thanks for an excellent week guys. Photos to follow.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 13:46:26 (ZULU)

I'll give some numbers for you to make it a little less outlandish.  My county (no r) has several million people, about 12 local LE agencies for a total of about 5500-6000 cops.  Of all those agencies and cops there are about 45 +/- or so "precision marksman" tops.  This dosen't count all the react and perimeter guys with the AR's, ACOG's and what-not.  I have the most dealings with the south & west sides of the county which has the largest share of cops, including the "big" depatment.  I have not had a lot to do with the Sheriff's overall and hear they have a couple excellent shooters, I just haven't met them but know of them by reputation.  The point I was trying to make was not that I am the next coming of Christ with a rifle but that the sniper programs on a personal and official level need improvment.  Sometimes the shooters can make a difference in the program (ie: self iniated training) other times the problems are out of their hands (you can't practice if the department won't buy you enough ammo or give you the time) I meant to imply nothing more.  I can't speak for the Feds around here.  Their snipers are like Bigfoot....You hear stories about them and some folks belive in them ,but you can't find anybody thats actually seen one.

No rants, flames or feuds OK.

And for what it's worth  All the LE snipers I've crossed paths with around here are using mildots.  How well maybe a different topic to save for a rant another day =)  

Please secure you dining tray and return you seatback to the upright position for landing,  thank you.

Joe S.

Joe S. <Spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 15:21:51 (ZULU)

Joe S. <Spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 15:25:58 (ZULU)

A cop sniper with a PURELY military mindset will not be a police sniper long. Skill set is the same.  Mindset is different.

Too, how a sniper can NOT be a gun guy is beyond me. They get the designation, some training and a rifle but that is as far as it goes with many.  I grew up hunting and competing and reloading like ya'll.  I guess that's why I fit in a little better here.

CONVERSELY, the guys with Recon, SF training etc. are naturals. They have experience and different training than just rushing a machine gun nest "cuz Gunny said so".  They think on their own, they think before they act and they are much more laid back.  I'd rather have a so so shot who's cool under pressure than a great shot that just can't think fast or run around the block but is packed full of blind gung ho, hooyah, hooah. Don't need too too much of that stuff. Guys will OD and mess up.

We have a Marine Scout Sniper, Desert Storm DECORATED veteran here who has tried out for the team several times.  He can't hit the berm with a handgun.  He's been in a pistol shooting which worked out okay but he does not have the mindset to be a SWAT sniper. You wouldn't think he would be that way.  I know I didn't.

MONEY:  Some PDs can get funds, some can't.  Some have smart gun friendly people in high places, most don't. Some spend money on training and their guys.  Some spend it on white out and paper clips. Here, we seize tons of money from dope raids BUT our dope guys are assigned to a Task Force with the County and they spend the money on dope shit and not SWAT shit even though some of the dope cops are SWAT cops. Get it ?  The County team has all the goodies, we have shit. Bean counters suck.  CPAs not SWAT operators.  If it ain't their kid being held hostage they just don't give a shit. We pray every day that someone will take a hostage at City Hall.

Back to the guns - for CQB, where a rifle fight takes place at handgun distances, I want a .223 with a 40 frang or 55 SP so I don't kill my buddy in the next room when I double tap the BG. FMJs and BTHP will hurt your own people.

You were right about glass.  Iffy at best.  You gotta make the call on how and when to do it or if you even can do it. Lots of issues there. Spalling, etc. Just my thinking though ... You can do it right and still get sued. That's why they pay us all that money.

Mark W: Gotta love it - miles and miles to shoot.  I got 600 here but that's it.  Always wanted my own 1000 range.

Joe S:  I remember my first postings here.  I felt like a karate student that had been blindfolded and put up against multiple attackers.  Cop to cop, we talk different than normal folks. Unless you are a cop and think like a cop, it's hard to figure you. I had just come from SWAT mode off of an international operational sniper only site.  I signed off that site and on to DR thinking everyone was on the same page. Wrong.  Took a while to be accepted, just like most groups.  I came across as too arrogant and a bunch of the DR guys I call friends now told me to eaten ze shitzen und fucken ze offen.  Hey, that's just people.

LITO:  I don't know, maybe that's why some of the cops don't want someone telling them how to do their job.  For every knowledgeable stranger out there that trys to help and tell a cop how to do something, there are ten thousand idiots that try and tell them how to do their jobs every day. Everybody's a law student and you get a little defensive.  It doesn't help when the cop is a fucking idiot too and can't tell the difference between someone wanting to help and a know it all or jailhouse lawyer.  Even worse than that is when either party doesn't know they are an idiot and think they have the world by the ass.

Prime Example: I always thought CDI meant Cop Donut Intake.

I just came on too strong right off the bat with the SWAT talk from work.  Hit people wrong.  I stuck around, even though everybody but Wes and a couple of more thought I was a prick. I mean, I am and all but I like to think I am a likeable prick.

So much to learn in life ...

Damn, I sound like a Dad.

PS: What the hell is wrong with chicks digging you ?  You guys a bunch of fags or what ? ha !

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 16:36:09 (ZULU)

Many lessons learned.

If you're using a drop-in case OAL Gauge for checking headspace of  your cartridges you may end up short, literally (I must now shit-can several thousand 5.56 cases that are 5 thousandths shorter than factory length, or 8 thousandths shorter than fired.  Shorter cases allow the firing pin to put a huge dent in a primer, but the impact actually drives the whole round forward until it hits the chamber shoulder, without enough shock to set off a Winchester Small Rifle primer).  Solution is a Stoney Point headspace bushing (mounted on your calipers) to mike shoulder set-back during re-sizing stage.

Pulling the bullets and salvaging powder starts tonight.

USAMU is shooting the 5.56mm 77 grain Match King for "Rattle Battle" from 600 yards.

If you are struggling to maintain a 600-yard M16 iron sight average because of vision problems, going back to an M-14 may fix it.

178 A-Maxs were shooting inside my 1,000 yard 175 Match King wind calls (identical 45-grain Varget charge).

Am retiring my M-14 for 1,000 yard iron sights and will go to a bolt gun next year.  Too damn hard to see target over a post sight.

175s from a 24 inch barrel were shooting inside 155s fired from a 28-inch Palma barrel (1,000 yards, winds 9 mph gusting to 21 mph.  155s launched around 3,000 fps).

My 45 grain Varget (raw 175 Match King) 1,000 yard loads were sticking in my M14.  Will have to either stick with moly or back down a half grain).

Mark C, NCOIC of the SOTIC Course who works with Rick, says M118LR hasn't increased the graduation rate, but graduates' scores have gone up 10%.

Kev, glad to hear you are back with us, and on the road to recovery!

Steve, there are a number of ranges in the Florida panhandle/lower Alabama area.  Contact Gary Crayne (a retired AFSOC E-9, he shoots around there, and says there's a match darned near every weekend).

I don't understand Canada's problem with letting US Forces decorate their snipers.  TF Afghanistan just decorated the Australian SAS Commander with a Bronze Star (SF has had long allied combat relations with the Aussies dating back to WWII and Vietnam).

Pete, Jon, Marco, you lucky, lucky bastards...

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:17:44 (ZULU)

Humor for the day, shooting related . . . a friend sent this to me, and I couldn't resist.  Click my name or go to http://new.leveron.com/afghan.html

John <john@leveron.com>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:21:35 (ZULU)

Sain, sounds like your next rifle is gonna be shooting a .50 cal frangible (bigger is better?)...if you blow the bad-guy to pieces, some of the body parts are gonna hit friendly folks... blunt trauma is worse than penetrating trauma...

Gun question...

USMC M40A3 (shameless derivation off Mike Miller's article) - around 17lbs... why so heavy for one or two shots?  This is a complex subject, and I don't have all the factors, but I think I got the simple, obvious ones down...no need to rehash them.

Hunting is a lot like sniping, so why do hunters carry light rifles while snipers seem to carry heavier and heavier?  Is a HB really a factor for shot #1 or #2?  If not, what justifies the extra weight?

Jim MItchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:23:33 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:25:49 (ZULU)

Good to see you again Pete, and nice to have met you at last Marco; hope we'll meet again.  What a great bunch of guys, I just wish I had been able to come for the whole week.

Marco, you can get the pod-lock details here http://www.snipercountry.com/PodLoc.html The guy at KMW is very helpful and quick with the order.

On my 'huge' trophy, I'm considering making it into a keyring, if I can find a ring small enough ;-).

Pete, with regards Stuart's comments about your 'shit' marksmanship on deer - keep practicing, it'll come in time ;-)  It may help if you get yourself a decent scope; don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just making constructive comments.  Ever considered an NXS? ;-)

Thanks for the memories fellas.

All the Best

Jon

P.S.  Whats this about you doing a bit of exotic big game hunting on the way home????

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:33:38 (ZULU)

While looking at power tools at Sears, I noticed their line of Craftsman work benches.  They were also on sale.  I ended up going with with the following:

http://www.sears.com/sr/product/summary/productsummary.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1431310420.1029347122@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdiadcfmeghhggcehgcemgdffmdfin.0&vertical=TOOL&fromAuto=YES&bidsite=&pid=00965525000

I recommend cut and pasting that URL, what a pain, eh?

I think Leveron and I could probably resize .50BMG brass on this thing without any problems.  The quality is excellent and it only took about two hours total to assemble.  I didn't buy the optional pegboard back, but the bench alone runs $125.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:49:41 (ZULU)

You guys are not even on the cookies and milk list!  It was two other (very nice) guys that just got a bad start on a comment, and it went down hill from there.

Joe...

Well, after that double tap, maybe you're in trouble now ;))

-

Brian...

>"For every knowledgeable stranger out there that trys to help and tell a cop how to do something, there are ten thousand idiots that try and tell them how to do their jobs every day."<

I think you are right on that one... I doubt that they will take advice from a civy, unless it has been proven that the civy knows their poop.  Course if they won't shoot with the civies, then... Aw we been there before ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 18:11:51 (ZULU)

Dave; I had to go down to 42.5 with the M1a this seems to duplicate the Military .308 168 match in performance. This is a 2550 something load they probably load with M 118's or something like that. The rifle handles it but the accuracy seemed much better there. I agree on changing to the M-14 sights. Much better than the AR's. if that was what you meant. I should know but can't remember if the M-118 is 172 or 168 but anyway the loads I had were marked MATCH and 168 gr.

Brian; all I can tell you is that Chicks don't really dig Camo. It's the men in black I think. Only cowgirls like coyote hunters.Ok so now they are diggin firemen! About 30 years tooo damn late for me!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 18:39:38 (ZULU)

LTC don't retire the M14 if it shoots well try an aperture front sight with interchangeable reticules.   There are many crosshair or peep reticles available that should allow the target to be visible at any distance.

As far as the bolt gun goes, the Tubbs in 6.5-08 seems to be making a good showing with the high power guys in my neck of the woods.

I wouldn't be surprised if the TF dagger guys presented some awards to the Canadian's and the local indigenous freedom fighters  outside of DOD.   It just would be nice if they were recognized by all..

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:03:36 (ZULU)

I sent you an off-line e-mail.  No attachments.  Should be this e-mail address.

Don't be scared!!

Rich Johnson <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:09:28 (ZULU)

>>Mark W: Gotta love it - miles and miles to shoot.  I got 600 here but that's it.  Always wanted my own 1000 range.<<

Come on up to the Panhandle. You'll already be shooting on a higher plain. Hehe. I'll get you a 1000 yards and much more. My range includes a bench on skids with a towing cable. Just drag that sucker anywhere and whatever range you want it, if you need it. Comes in real handy when you're ranging a scope.

I've already got some of the Lubbock cops wanting to shoot with me...or say they do ;))  

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:17:01 (ZULU)

OK, MY MISTAKE SO SORRY

 I misread your post, country and county do make a big difference.  sorry for the abrupt post, last night was a long shift, raining, nothing going on, smelly K-9 type dog barking his ass off in back seat,and that post was made from that stinky car in the last hour of that long shift.

 no excuses though I AM AN ASS

  my partner and I did go out at the begining of the shift and shoot steel out to 600 yards on a local siloutte range.   so I guess anytime I get to shoot free bullets on county time and call it training I can't complain to much.  o yes we also cleaned our rifles on county time.  life is good!!!!

 Just found out I get to teach a subgun school for 300.00 a day in the next few weeks  an easy $900.00

Bobby Whittington if you read this drop me an e-mail I am curious about that school being in your neck of the state and CLEET wanting Mac and I to teach it.

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:55:24 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins081402.asp

Good MOUT site:

http://www.urbanoperations.com/

A professor of strategy and force planning at the Naval War College has some thoughts on Iraq war past and future.  This is good:

http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens081402.asp

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 20:36:25 (ZULU)

Lito-I'm a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad boy ....sorry for the douple tap...I guess my keyboard was set on burst.  Second post delated as soon as I woke up today. Can I still have cookies and milk though =)

Brian-  Man you hit a big nail on a big head with a big hammer when you menioned the civies and sea lawyers trying to tell us how to do our job.  A warning about that should be written in on the job description.  Over the years I have opened a little more to listening to see if it sounds like they know what they are talking about before I gafaw.  At the range I always try to learn from those old guys with the $5K sticks that know how to shoot.   Hell I'll get in deep discussions about what pocket to carry you dope book in.  

Pete L-You are just a hunting madman =)  I am talking to my better half and I hope to get back to the fatherland next summer.  Let the games begin.

Please keep you arms and legs in the car at all times while the ride is still in motion, thank you.

Joe S.  

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, CA, land of the libs, US of A - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:01:22 (ZULU)

Damn.  Alabama too far for ya?"

Gooch, you got me there!  Alabama IS on the way to Mississippi!  :0

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:10:04 (ZULU)

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:42:53 (ZULU)

Yeah... it's OK now ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:52:11 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 02:01:41 (ZULU)

MedicJim, so chicks dig the fireman-medic combo eh? Going to give that consideration. Now, could you tell me why you guys (medics) wear prophylactics on your hands? Maybe I don't want THOSE chicks to dig me!

Sinister Dave, retiring your M-14? Say it ain't so! Cute, disease-free, perky chicks without parasites DIG that rifle you know!

Brian, you keep 'em coming, I'm enjoying your posts. If you're a jerk, I'd be glad to hang with jerks.

Andy's Dad, glad you're back so quickly. That mowing the kill zone comment was too funny. He's not neglecting duties, he's making it more challenging for you. Any kid with a BHP is OK in my book.

All this from a guy with a stick that has the highest CDI factor you've ever seen (and enjoying every minute of it!). So where do I go to qualify for cookies and milk?

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 02:56:03 (ZULU)

LE v Mil shooting skills.  No diff.  Its all moa.  If a guy can hold a .3 moa group at 50 yards then he should be able to do the same at 700 yards.  It all depends on gear, dope in the databook and wind reading skills.  I have seen LE guys that can shoot and mil guys that can shoot.  I have seen USMC snipers who could barely pass a school and LE guys that couldnt figure out how to use tgt turrets.  It dont matter what the uniform is.

Civvies did teach the military how to shoot.  The NRA taught them all back when the NRA was a shooting organization.  Places like Sea Girt, New Jersey and folks like General Wingate.  Even the Marines couldnt shoot worth a shit until just prior to WWI and the adoption of the '03.  Cops are a little behind the power curve in most places cause there is no real central agency who dictates long gun training.  Yeah the FBI kind of does but there is no common standard.  So you have dudes in Arkansas with .270 Rugers, dudes in Texas with .223 Bolt guns and fellers in Berkley with 7.62 M21's.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 03:04:19 (ZULU)

Beings that I shoot alone and have never been in any kind of match I'm not sure what is and isnt good in terms of accuracy.  I was out last week with a 1ooyd small bore rifle target set out at 300 yards.  I was able to keep all shots in the 9 ring.  I'm not sure how good that is.  If it helps, there was a 10-15 mile an hour cross wind.

Thanks

Scott

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 03:29:35 (ZULU)

Lets see Jim's an Ass he says.

Dave's retiring his M-14.

Brian's a Jerk he says.

Jaeger is shootin for cookies and milk.

This has become a den of liars. I don't believe nothin you guys say!

Jim Mitchell; nobody is gonna touch your question and with all the lyin goin on how could you believe it anyway.

The reason for heavy Sniper Rifles is cause I ain't converted all of em yet!

LE has em cause they all got cars and backup so they don't have to get up and run.

And even they are all lookin at smaller shorter anyway for the most part.

Somebody mentioned the .223 ain't quite deadly enough. Put you some real bullets in there and take those pointy nose fmj's out. You won't have to shoot em twice.

Drat; I'm bein bit by the double space fairy!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 04:03:29 (ZULU)

                Were you talkin' about the military 7.62 Match ammo loaded with a 168? Labeled M852? The bullet's an SMK. and it chronos 2568 avg. out of my M1A. Good ammo for the price when CMP was selling it, and left you with some good LC brass if you didn't get some from a few shitty years production!

                I was never real satisfied with the old M118, with that crummy (IMHO) 173gr. mil. bullet. The M118LR (with 175gr SMK) that replaced it shoots just fine in all of my .308's. The only problem that I've had is finding it! Been loading my own facsimilies.

                Heavy vs. light sniper barrels? Like you, I won't touch that one, I have definate opinions, but already got into a shitstorm this week;-) Enough for a while.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 05:12:01 (ZULU)

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=3100387

They look like less expensive alternatives to Badger but I have made enough rookie purchasing decisions for this year so I am trying to get validation on the best options for around $200.  Also considering the IOR 20 moa set.  

LT

LTChip
Placerville, CA, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 06:09:33 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchel, light hunting rifles vs heavey sniping rifles, I've been wondering the same, is there a need for a darn heavey sniper rifle today? well I guess the bigger caliber(338/.50) rifles have good reason to be a bit on the heavey side, and I guess that heavey barrels tend to group better over longer strings of shots. Now I can see maybe why the Military sniper rifles are on the heavey side, but for LE, i figure a lighter rifle would do the job just as well. Now with hunting, once you have shot the game, you have to hump it out with you, which can be a right sod when lugging a heavey rifle, but with military sniping, you are perhaps lugging a shit load of kit around that no hunter ever would( unless you are called Marco). Now maybe I've become fat and lazy, but after seeing Marco and the other two, and Jon, lug them damn heavey rifles around last week, well, I will just keep my nice and light (air gun) hunting rifle,( or light weight sniper rifle as i may call it yet). A heavey hunting rifle is ok for overlooking large areas and not moving far, but for stalking and moving a ways,then you couldn't give me a heavey one. And for that one shot, a light accurate rifle, will perform just as well as a heavey accurate rifle. I guess with hunting, its personal preference and with sniping, you use what your issued.

Pete L  

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 10:50:21 (ZULU)

I can't begin to say how pleased I am with Mike Rocks' barrel and George Gardners' workmanship. Outstanding!!!! What a rifle!!

Thanks, George and Mike.

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 11:46:24 (ZULU)

I don't 'lug' my rifle anywhere.  I trip and skip as light as the breeze around the wood with my trusty 300 weighing in at 15.5lbs. empty.  I have used it for nearly all the buck season till, the stud ripped out (which is still fine, thanks again Pete).  Its 26" barrel is as handy as a pocket knife ;-).  I tend to find I shoot better with a heavy rifle, suppose it helps dampen the quivering bag of blood and bone holding it.  Besides I think I would be frightened of the 300 if it were in a light weight package.  It used to draw blood quite frequently when it had a S&B on it.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 12:15:33 (ZULU)

In a few weeks, you're gonna need all the cookies and milk you can get.

Start stocking up today :)))))))))))))))))))))))

KBAN (Kick Bitch's Ass Now ;)

-

I have seen only a fleeting moment of one Kat running through the yard this year... I can't figgure out if I got them all, or if the fat Lady has wised up, and is keepin' all of them (about eleventeen hundred) in her house... If so, the fumes must be awful ;)))

-

To any of you animal types (Not you party animals!!).

When a furry critter dies, how long does it take for the skin parasites (like fleas) to abandon the corpse??

-

And... don't listen to ol' 'yote Bate about sniper rifles... he wears his sniper riffle in a belt holster, under a light jacket!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 12:17:18 (ZULU)

I prefer it doesn't stick lower than my boxer briefs unless it's a large caliber' so there!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 12:42:12 (ZULU)

And what are you doing at the 'puter in tax payers time? you gov't officials have a charmed life.. ha ha, up early this morning??

Going back to that cannon of yours, Ive got some old pram wheels we could make a nice undercarriage with,? have you decided on getting that lovely cammo colour( just like mine) on your new stock? or are you going with the politicaly correct one tone (boring) colour..

Siniater Dave is right, we are lucky bastards, hunting with a sheep shagger, 3 dike fingering cloggies and a Bavarian yoedeling(jodeln?) Presack was a fine experience, ha.and it all came about because of this web site, when they have taken away all our guns and stopped us hunting, all we will have left is the memories, and last week will be one near the top of the list.

Longest shot last week was 245m, one shot one kill.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 13:10:15 (ZULU)

Catman, you seeding the ground with catnip?

Things are strange around here lately. Next I will here is Bill will have woke up and said "Christ I need to get a real scope"

Now for a little help from my friends.  I am looking for sources for:

Thermal imagers

PVS 17's

Suggestions for best NVD Binoculars

Intrusion devices for peremeter

All is legit with appropriate letter head requests

Email me if you have info.  Thanks

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 13:17:20 (ZULU)

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 13:58:16 (ZULU)

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 14:20:13 (ZULU)

I shot a small four pointer in the Adirondacks a few years back.  It was late and I was several miles from camp so I gutted him and hoisted him into a tree for the night.  I returned in the morning to cart him back to camp.  When I lowered him to the ground I found a "knot" of ticks on the top of his head.  My guess is they all followed the body heat as it left the body.  Loss of body heat might be the key to parasites "moving on".

Ref: SWS Weight

I'll weigh in my rigs this afternoon.  I find Andy's M700VS to be just about perfect.  My M40A1 is just a little too heavy for long walks.  As far as "shoot ability" goes my LTR in .223 is the most accurate of the lot and it's the lightest.....go figure.

A heavy barrel on a SWS allows intensive firing during training and that might be one of the reasons for it.  It’s not so critical on a CBS in the field.  The heavier rifle takes out some of the pulse but adding weight has a point of diminishing returns and I suspect that point is around 12 or 13 pounds.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:26:48 (ZULU)

Sniper sustainment question...(LE or Mil)

You are operating in an "unfriendly place"...you sustain a wound that bleeds and hurts but doesn't compromise your ability to finish the operation (which will last another 36 hours).  Let's say it's a 6" long, deep laceration to your thigh secondary to an encounter with barbed wire.  You are not yet in your final position and a 75 yard low stalk is between you and that position.  The wound will require real care in a hospital when you get done.  What have you got in your EXISTING kit to stabilize or treat the wound and do you know how?

Lito - Fleas established on a critter will have a whole generation in "egg state" at any one time... thus, it's a period of weeks before a carcass can be considered flea-free.  Mange is some really nasty stuff... I think those suckers have a longer incubation period...like months.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:31:14 (ZULU)

             I've got a feeling that your .30-'06 is a bit heavier than your 8-9 lbs. guess;-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:37:00 (ZULU)

I'd say that with a 6" long wound that "will require real care in a hospital..." you must have been running all out for some reason or another and got yourself into some razor wire/concertina, not no steenkin barbed wire.  And also guessing that if it will require real care in a hosp., that probably means stitches.  Easy answer, apply tourniquate (sp?) just above said wound!  That'll stop the bleeding!  Seriously though, I don't carry any gauze dressings in my kit so hopefully direct pressure and pressure dressing would stop the bleeding.  But a 6" wound needing stitches prolly would take some time to stop.  Guess I'd be needing about 5 battle dressings to sop up the blood, and a bunch of gauze and tape over some antibiotic ointment afterwards.  Good question, got me thinking for a while today.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:56:10 (ZULU)

HDR, Im going to Badlands in Oct. I'll try not to exhale while in Oklahoma. I don't want it to get to windy.

My modem went South on me and I should have it up and running this weekend. So if you all have been sending me viruseses. I will get them shortly. I went through DR with drawls and had to use the puter at work to read and post this.

Andy's Dad glad you are up and about.

Sinister Dave, You still happy with your RRA AR? I am thinking of getting a RRA Varmint upper to play with out to 1K but mostly 500 or less. Any thoughts.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
SA, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:56:47 (ZULU)

Jimbo, you ain't seein' my ex ole lady are ya ?

he hee.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 16:07:22 (ZULU)

can't stop laughing.......

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 16:34:11 (ZULU)

Steve;  you might ought to try those 168's before you go 1000 in a match. They should do it in a long barrel perhaps but mine don't in a 20. At 800 they get 5 or 6 inches but go to a yard at a 1000. The A-max doesn't always make 1000 either but it does good at 900.

Don't forget to ....

Thank me for that LTR boys. If you go back to archives you'll see where I posted how many years ago I petitioned Remington. They always said no but hell no till I finally got old enough they figured I had died and wouldn't bill them for the idea. Kevin you will also see how many times I've said 20" barrels are more accurate in that caliber. Don't know why.

Several months ago I posted that we were using air conditioner foam rubber tubing to make barrel shrouds to slip on barrels for protection sound reduction and camo improvments (paint or camo tape)for SS barrels. I've tried all of them on .223 to .308 and a few in between. Up to now we've never cataloged a problem of any kind except you need a little bit of tape on the end to keep the thing from slipping a few inches. The muzzle blast will make short work of it if it slips. The groups are unaffected as far as we can tell. That .35 group the other night was shot with shroud in place.  I've even used them with flutted barrels in 105 degree heat with no detected problem with heat. (that's probably something that's debatable since we didn't measure the temperature. But the groups stayed in there.)

Makes crawlin in and out of vehicles and rough places easier and protects as well as hides. Comes off for cleaning easily.

Real Scope;%^*%%^*&%%*&%*&%! Ok Mike I'm gonna go right down to ebay and bid on a Tasco Super Sniper! You are incurable!

We've killed out PD's by hitting a town real hard with rifles. Like 10 guns or so.  Many more were left but the fleas apprently migrate to the survivors and extra plague exposure or something kills every dog in the town in about 2 weeks or 10 days. No scientific proof and I've had it said to me that if there's any plague at all the whole town will die in just a few days.  Dunno the truth but I know where the abandoned towns are.

This doesn't happen every time (probably because of # fleas present

or infected ones anyway.) But one farmer came out to poison his a week following out attack and never put the stuff out cause he couldn't find a dog.  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 16:47:38 (ZULU)

What is the best tool available for helping to make sure your scope is level when mounting it?  I've been eyeballing it, but something tells me I'll be better of at the longer ranges using a more scientific method.

Thanks for any help.

JB

John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
Gettysburg, PA, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 17:25:35 (ZULU)

>>>>You are operating in an "unfriendly place"...you sustain a wound that bleeds and hurts but doesn't compromise your ability to finish the operation The wound will require real care in a hospital when you get done.  What have you got in your EXISTING kit to stabilize or treat the wound and do you know how?<<<<

--

Let me complicate your scenario ;))

--

You're now tending to your wound in "unfriendly" territory when you're swarmed by mosquitoes. Before leaving camp, you recall overhearing some of your companions talking about some of the local livestock having to be put down because of the West Nile Virus. It just occurs to you that you're a Type I diabetic.

Now watcha gonna do?

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 17:51:17 (ZULU)

loosely mount the scope on the rifle ... level your rifle with a bubble level .. look through the scope at the string..I bet you've got it from here.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 17:53:20 (ZULU)

1)   Stop the bleeding.

2)   Time to get out of Dodge before plan A goes to shit.

3)   E&E and hope you make it before you bleed to death or they pick up your blood trail.

4)   Come back and play another day.

War is hell but combat is a Mother F$%ker.  My hats off to all you heros.

De Oppresso Liber..

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 19:00:28 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 19:06:23 (ZULU)

Great big cuts are a lot like bullet or shrapnel wounds... you need to control the bleeding (this is obvious), but you also have to address temporarily closing the wound and dealing with the pain (to finish the mission). If you don't have a hospital handy, you might want to keep some field expedient kit around to hold you over...

100 MPH tape works good for wound closures, as does electrical tape... keep some on hand.  For pain, a triple antibiotic ointment is a good start.  A little bit of topical lidocaine gel works well (if you can talk your local nurse or PA out of it), as does the new ambesol in a pinch...something to consider when making up your kit, all this stuff is small, light and easy to get.  Hemostats are also available, and although I rarely use em' ... there really isn't a substitute when you got a cut artery that direct pressure won't handle.

Mark -

-diabetic operator???

-Compare the lethal stats for west nile to influenza...you might be surprised with what you find... press hype at it's best.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 21:06:30 (ZULU)

Just experienced something similar with the bugs.  Rolled my truck at about 65mph into an agricultural area, Middle O' nowhere.  Pretty good gash on the head among other trauma, able to exit the vehicle and crawl out to the shoulder of the road and wait, and wait, and wait. In and out of consciousness over a few hours.

I was being swarmed by hornets and red ants and not able to do a lot about it.  I remember being pissed off and telling the bugs to wait 'till I was dead to eat me!  A real cirlce of life kinda experience.  I ended up taking off my shirt to cover my head - the blood was drawing critters from everywhere!  

After that, gauze sponges and wraps are in the kit.  Clean it, wrap it, or you become part of the food chain.  It was absolutely amazing the insects that appeared, nasty ones.  From an operational standpoint, those critters will definitely blow your ability to remian concealed and even function.

So the point is - clean and dress pays more dividends than just enhanced recovery at a future date, it may be what gets you through the next few hours.

It's hard to tell the new head trauma from the old head trauma (another story) Oh well - never was that sane anyway :0

GG

Greg Ghironzi <gregg@nbsgfg.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 21:31:34 (ZULU)

I tried some of the Federal/LC XM193 5.56 (white box stuff) today on a chrono.   It suprized the heck out of me by only having a 8 fps spread in 20 rounds fired.  Shot OK+/- in my service rifle too.

I went to the desert today and humped around the foot hills carrying my 300 WM with light kit and made a discovery.  That problem I had with the cartlage in my knee, you know the one I planned on healing by it's self ....didn't...Ouch!!   I'm now going to go mash up a whole bottle of Ibu and mix it with Jacks for a good IV.  

Warning! Ingestion of this product may be unsettling to the bowels.

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, Land of bright sun and expensive houses, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 21:43:28 (ZULU)

Good one.

The following is a link to subscribe to Rumsfeld's, Franks' and Wolfowitz's press briefings.  Anything important comes out here minus the screaming, biased hype:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/dodnews.html#e-mail

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 22:24:32 (ZULU)

Can you build one of your slings (IN GREEN) with MP5/AI hooks ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 22:27:16 (ZULU)

Yes I make slings for them.  I can make either the Quick Cuff or Slip Cuff for it.  75.00 for Quick Cuff M24 varient plus 5.00 shippin or 50.00 plus 5.00 shipping for the Slip Cuff model.  Get ahold of me for brother discount.  I mean Christ got to do better for any handicapped with size 9's.LMAO

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:11:23 (ZULU)

Gotta get momma a new car and hafta put a new clutch in the truck.  Man, when it rains it pours.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:13:12 (ZULU)

Just got back from a hunting trip.

Killed a 270lb wild hog about a 100yds shot downhill. Shot him right in the eye. He never even wiggled. Just fell over.

Killed a 140lb Axis. I wanted to see what the bullet would do in a shoulder shot. Perfect placement. Never found the bullet. But there was a 2.5-3" exit wound. Got both lungs and the heart.

300WinMag, N180BT Bullets with R22 are quite accurate and devasting.

Any way the freezer is full and its almost dinner time.

Lito, If you find alot of bugs on an animal carcass that you just killed. I wouldn't touch it or eat it. Most wild animals are cleaner that you think. Didn't find any bugs on either the Hog or Axis. It is the Middle of Aug in Southwest Texas after a good flood. Mesquitos were bitch. The Dogs had fleas and ticks, but the Hog and Axis were bug free.    

Bryan

Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:25:27 (ZULU)

- the mods that Mike and Jerry R. recommned (drilling and tapping) my AI stock made it a lot more friendlier to slinging that the atrocious hook ups that came with it.

 That way I can use a normal Mike sling with out any difficulties and the placement was WAY better too.

Dave, 24-26????? geez thats a long tube

I shoot a 14.5" at 600m am I doing something wrong? (LOL)

I am aiming to get an SPR setup one of these days - but...

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:30:11 (ZULU)

>>>-diabetic operator???<<<

Sure, why not?

Happens all the time. There's lots in the military with pre-existing medical conditions. Examples: the LT in "Blackhawk Down" having an epileptic grand mal seizure; remember toward the end of the movie, the private taking a breath on his Ventolin metered dose inhaler (asthma); Carlos Hathcock had Parkinsons. I remember an episode in MASH where an EVAC helicopter pilot had Type I diabetes. Kept it secret until caught.  

>>>-Compare the lethal stats for west nile to influenza...you might be surprised with what you find... press hype at it's best.<<<

Actually the reason that I brought this up is for the fact that the West Nile Virus has become a clear and present danger in this area in just the last week. Headlines are full of stories involving this Virus including our small town newspaper. Lots of livestock and horses have had to be destroyed in a 5 county area in just the last several weeks. 2 cases involving a truck driver and 6 yr. old girl in just the last week. Whether or not hype, it remains to be seen. What's so unusual about this, is the fact that we're a dry, arid region.

Also, the reason that I threw in the Type I diabetes is for the fact that the West Nile Virus has more effect on those with a weak immune system. Diabetes being one of many.

Joe S.

>>>I'm now going to go mash up a whole bottle of Ibu and mix it with Jacks for a good IV.<<

I hope you are joking....surely. It's no secret that large amounts of alcohol and tylenol is considered to be a suicide cocktail. It's one of those EMS beware kind of things. Of course Ibuprofen and acetametaphine (tylenol) are 2 different drugs, but please don't mix with alcohol.

GG,

>>>Rolled my truck at about 65mph into an agricultural area, Middle O' nowhere.  Pretty good gash on the head among other trauma, able to exit the vehicle and crawl out to the shoulder of the road and wait, and wait, and wait. In and out of consciousness over a few hours.<<<

OUCH!!

This is the reason I carry my medic and trauma gear (including oxygen) wherever I go. I once worked a wreck and had absolutely nothing in the way of equipment. There were 5 involved including one critical. A Medic w/o his ambulance is pretty limited. Training w/o equip. is pretty useless.

I bet you had a lot to ponder about in those moments...besides the bugs ;))

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 00:03:01 (ZULU)

When in the bush for an extended bit, I have a ton of medical stuff, and usually carry Demarol (sp?), or other heavy pain killers, and a general Anitbiotic "x"-cillen, too.

I would clean it up with betadine, splice it together with crazy glue style breathing ties, and then lay a betadine patch over the ties, and then wrap the sucka in steril gauze, but not tight enough to impead circulation.  I think that would keep me going for 36 hours.

-

JB... a plumb line!

-

AceHigh John... The doggie pack (er... Kitty pack) got here today... it's a friggin' riot.  IF the fat lady sees me in it, I'm bustacated... :((

Thanks Dudeski ;)))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 00:25:15 (ZULU)

Mike, how'd the AIs shoot ?  Did you shoot any in tree oh ate ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 00:42:45 (ZULU)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 01:44:48 (ZULU)

Interesting posts:

Let's see, about the 6" cut. I believe the original plan was to finish the mission. NOT do an E & E as suggested. I carry a large bandage in my kit and some adhesive tape. Sterilize the wound as well as possible, cover with the bandage and get on with it...if possible.

I've got some "interesting" scars, but nothing that long...scars that is...

Rifle weights: My tactical guns go in the 14-16 pound range. My 6.5 goes right at 15 pounds "all up". Like others I like the nose  heavy feel, but after a day in the woods a M700 LTR or lighter gun starts looking good. Personally, I think something in the 10-12 pound range would do well. My personal hunting rigs go from 8-9 1/2 pounds fully loaded.

My new match grade M1A is superb. Weighs like a standard M1A, but shoots 168 Sierras under 1" when I do my part. Can't wait to take it across the course.

Have to get one of Mikes new slings on order for my M1A. Then it'll be perfect. As always favored the M1A/M14 for weight and balance. The new M16A2 is hard to beat, as well. Like both, but if forced to select one I'd go .308 anytime. You can hunt with it and you can hunt with it...;-)

Saw a new Corrections Officer T-shirt. Pictured a prison in the background with the phrase: "If you build them, they will come." Unfortunately, to damn true.

Start the Academy on Monday...fun and games. Bet this old codger is gonna be stiff and sore for awhile.

Rifle range tomorrow, time permitting. Have ammo, so there is really no excuse.

My best to all.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 02:00:04 (ZULU)

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 02:07:40 (ZULU)

Most of the guys that I know really like the AI rifles.  My complaint is really from my habit of placeing my shooting thumb along side of the stock instead of over it.  I got in this habit because of my tendency to "choke the sucker" while shooting and this stopped that tendency.  The AI stock does not allow for thumb placement anywhere but inside the "hole".  Personnally did not mind the trigger, only the stock.  My biggest problem with the AIs is the cost.  Man are they expensive!  First AI I ever fired was in 1985 and it grouped like crap.  Then we found out that it had about 400 rounds through it and had never been cleaned.  A little Shooters Choice, Sweets, and JB and it shot good groups for its abuse.  Yes Bill and Catplugger, JB. :-)

Mike - What's wrong with size 9?  That's my size!  :-)

Alan - You talking about the old M118 Special Ball or the old old M118 National Match?  The M118 National Match was actually pretty good ammo, well it won a goodly number of matches before M852.  The M118 National Match became Special Ball in 86, I do believe, and the transition was very painful.  The first LOT we got would not shoot within 4 moa (1 inch groups at 25 meters) when we tested our M21s before a course.  Now that stuff never really got good and always had a flyer problem.  When the boxes didn't have glue stuck to the cartridge bases.

The real reason for heavy military sniper rifles is the three steel ball bearing rule.  Of course then again the match rifles are all heavy too aren't they?  Hmmmmmm, maybe a link there?  Out of curiosity, how many AR shooters have the stock weights to make them heavier?  Yes, I have mine.

Scott - Don't worry, I have found that I always shot real tight groups.  Then I shoot that dam second round.  Of course that is like dry firing.  Man that weapon is rock steady, then I put in that dam 50 pound bullet.

Gooch - You are getting easy on me.  I can't be getting that old am I?

Hold Hard Guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 02:10:18 (ZULU)

Yote Bait, I dont care how I score with the 168s. I just want to see how the score varies from my normal or expected score. Plus I aint got a range out to 1K to play on, so the test has to be done at a match. The down side is I will miss the next 1K match in Waco. I may try to make a shoot in Mineral Wells but thats a real long drive. I may play with them when I go to Badlands in Oct. Dang they do shoot great out of my M1A Nasty Match. Shot 6 in to just half of the X ring during a play session seems a shame to use just the X ring though. I will get over it :)

Dirty Steve, computerless for now, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Anto, Texas, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 04:06:45 (ZULU)

Thanks,

Ryan.

ryan24@sbcglobal.net

Ryan <ryan24@sbcglobal.net>
Las Vegas, NV, U.S.A. - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 04:07:49 (ZULU)

            Yeah, I was talking about the infamous SB stuff. Never was able to get ahold of any of the old,old ammo. I'm using a Ray-Vin in the buttstock of my HBAR. Thinking of adding some adhesive wheel weights under the handguards. Might just 100mph them to the outside 'til I'm sure.

Bryan Sain,

           For the Uncle Mikes QD studs, you'll need a 10x32 tap (if you only buy one type, don't get the bottoming tap). It'll take a No. 21 drill bit to make the proper size hole. For other brand studs YMMV.

BTW - Didn't have a clue that you were married to her also;-))

168SMK's,

          The skinny that I once got on their erratic subsonic performance (doing funny things at transitional speed) was that they were designed with the angle of their boat tail at a too acute angle of 11 degrees. When Sierra designed the boat tail on the 175MK, they went to 9 degrees which cured the problem. Or is this just scuttlebutt?

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 05:02:34 (ZULU)

If i never used the meat from animals that where bug infested here, I'd go hungry, the deer in Germany are all covered in ticks, I didn't see many in Scotland though,(higher elevation, harsher climate, still have a winter), Also see warble fly larve quite often over here.

In Scotland the darn midges, fly's and mossies realy swarm when you are gutting a deer, they must be able to smell it for miles, They didn't bother me otherwise, exept for the one time on the shovel recce( taking a dump), but has anyone else ever noticed, when you have gutted a deer, your farts smell exactly the same for at least a day after, no wonder my ass got bit.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 05:30:16 (ZULU)

Relax everybody they're talking about parachute jumping, I think. ;-)

I've been up since 02:00 I feel ok but just can't sleep.  Oh well I guess I'll go pull the handle on my Dillon for a while.  It's like counting sheep.....now there's an idea.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 07:40:20 (ZULU)

Anybody seen this AI rifle with the rounded action /AW stock, police/civialin model, just bieng released for sale here, i forget what they call it, but i read about it some where, retail here is about $4000 i think.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 08:09:58 (ZULU)

>"What's wrong with size 9?"<

Nothing my size 14's won't fix... I don't store them in shoe trees... I store them in London Bridge drag-bags... HA! ;))  At least you can go into a shoe store and get what you want... I go in, and the guy drags out a dusty box from 1949 :((

JB paste... Double HA!!

-

Ryan24...

Be careful about getting the bushnell 6x24.  It has a total elevation of only 26 moa from top to bottom.  You will need to use the Burris "Signature ZEE" mounts, with the adjustable plastic shells, in order to get past 500 yds... also, the elevation and windage knobs are the worst marked I have seen in 45+ years... I have owned one for many years, and it is difficult to make accurate adjustments in the field... I got the tee-shirt!

This scope definitly should NOT be considered as a longrange scope.

-

ALAN...

The angle on the 168s is 13 degrees, and that is too sharp for the air to follow it, plus the boat tail is too short to help flight, though it aids in seating.  They fly like a flatbase.

So do the Hornadys that have tiny, short boat tails... but the ones that have loooong boat tails, like the 75 A-Max are a whole different story.  They never slow down ;)

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 10:25:57 (ZULU)

Check this link out.

http://www.chronotype.com/frame.cfm?header=headline2&maintarget=../article.cfm?ArticleID=4467

This is about a person in Wisconsin (sorry to say) who fell for the Nigerian scam.

This is my hometown newspaper.

John

John Hugdahl <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 11:02:07 (ZULU)

Like I said, I think it's been on a hanger for awhile, but considering the content, that's not hard to understand. That is a "one man" only kinda shirt. Maybe catwoman will wash it for you?? :)))

Jim, MarkW.

Turn 2 tampons end to end and duct tape in wound channel. Leave string hangin out for attachin' more ghillie cover. If it hurt so bad I needed Demerol, the insects wouldn't have a chance. The enemy will find me first by triangulation of vocalization.

Fatboy,

This new rifle is sumpin else. I think I must be a 3moa shooter w/ a 2.5 moa rifle, or whatever. It is hard to shoot poorly with it.

See ya,  

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 11:53:33 (ZULU)

I don't like the stock on this M70. The palm/grip is unacceptable. What stock is the preferred replacement? I would prefer not to have to bed the action, if possible.

I measured the magazine well, 2.685", did I read here that you can load a little beyond 2.800 in a M70? The max seat depth on this barrel for a 175SMK is 2.835 to the rifling. Haven't tried 'em that long to see if accuracy improves, but if necessary will they fit in the mag well?

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 12:14:04 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave, I'll put in the clutch and loan a car for a couple of months, in trade for one of those black rifles of yours. Not that I want the rifle, I just think retiring your M-14 would be hard on it's morale, and we don't want that now do we? Besides, who needs black rifles?

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 12:58:22 (ZULU)

What M70 stock is it that you don't like??

If it's a Stealth, then you are a rare breed, cuz everyone has been copying that stock for years.

If you need to go to something else, you will have to have it bedded... even the aluminum based H-S stocks need to be glass bedded for best results.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:14:20 (ZULU)

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:17:24 (ZULU)

I use the sticks on big game anyhow these days, I hate wearin orange.

Poachers look like fools in Orangeatan Orange.. Gettin too old for tach matches and such other belly foolishness anyhow. I've got .223s that will dig a coyotes grave at 600 about ever shot. My 22-250 will do better than that. Wadda I need with a .308.

Jaeger; I didn't know you were such a hot auto mechanic. Sinister Dave your not the only Sinister one around this hide. He'll have the barrel wore out before you figure out it's a "borrowed" clutch. Jaeg, you've got to see a doctor about this gas problem you have. See what you've done... Wes, is gettin it too. Kinda like the skeeter virus only spread by mouth.

John' wid da 70. The General rule you can apply to modern Winchesters and Remingtons and maybe some others. Load it till it will function just barely in the magazine. If the bolt closes easy. You have the right length.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:24:07 (ZULU)

In the last few days' news:  Iraq is moving lots and lots of stuff around at their NBC sites elsewhere, Iran and Saudi are getting REAL squirrely and Scowcroft warns of "Armegeddon" if we move against Sadaam.  Condeleza Rice says we're going in anyway.  What the Hell else are we going to do?

Victor Davis Hanson intelligently makes the case for putting Sadaam's head on a pike:

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson081602.asp

Sounds good to me.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:26:50 (ZULU)

The bolt handle broke off!

I don't know exactly what the deal was, but from his very pissed phone call (I talked him out of getting a Win mod 70) it sounded like it broke right off where the bolt and bolt handle are joined.

Has anyone else heard about something like this happening or is this a super bad luck fluke?  I've been a lifelong supporter of this company, but I'm horrified by this.  I realize defects sometimes slip thru QA, but this is ridiculous.

He can't access SC from work, so if anyone has any info for him, please send him an email at  ghowie7413@aol.com.

Larry Wollner <lwollner@pressenter.com>
Hudson, Wi, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:01:30 (ZULU)

Thanks in advance everyone.

Peter in MN  

Peter <fmtmal@frontiernet.net>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:32:27 (ZULU)

      I was at a very reputable full-service gunshop with a friend who just had to have one of those (then) new M700 Mountain Rifles in .22-250. While the guy at the counter was pulling several new ones right out of their boxes so my buddy could have his pick of wood, I was working the action and checking out the trigger on one of 'em when guess what? Since then I've heard about several of them bolt handles falling off, one on a custom shop Model 7. The problem must go back aways, 'cause I picked up a M721 at a gun show a few years back for the right price, and there were definate signs of a gunsmith brazing job at the junction of the bolt to the root of the bolt handle!

Jaeger,

       I know what you mean about the Uncle Mikes QD swivels. I almost lost a rifle on a hunt about 20yrs. ago when a swivel (pre locking screw) popped loose. The new 'mil-spec' swivels address some of their problems, but not all.

       However, the main reason for my post is your comment about the Wichita swivels. I had an M40A1 built by Terry Cross (great piece of work, BTW) and McMillan required that the Wichita installation be performed during the buildup of the stock at their factory. I remember that Sierra Echo ran into that problem after he bought a pair of Wichita's to install on his already finished M25 -McMcmillan. Have you or others devised a method of retrofitting them that doesn't compromise their integrity? Inquiring minds, etc., etc.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:48:16 (ZULU)

http://216.219.200.59/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=000046

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:50:29 (ZULU)

Anyone have a good source of military camo goretex gear (parkas, boots etc)  Looking for high desert type camo.

Rick.  I aint easy on you.  You are just such a tough and mean man.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:57:41 (ZULU)

I'm crawling for help again.  I'm still tinkering with RL25 for my 300WM due to the large quantity I have of it and the lack of anyone to buy it off me.  Anyway, I've managed to get a load that I am more than happy with during initial tests. The load grouped 4 shots at just over 1/4" at 100yds, and I'm not super shot.  Problem is the velocities are still variable and I was wondering if this will affect long range shooting; will I get vertical strings due to the difference and will the wind affect them differently (I would think yes)?  The 4 shots were as follows- 3109, 3097, 3064, 3070.

Any help will, as always, be much appreciated.

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:05:51 (ZULU)

Bottom line:  The sling that Miller makes for the AICS should work just fine.  I have not tested it at the range yet, but it works for dry firing at my apt. (:

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:19:34 (ZULU)

Until we get another riffle raffle goin' here, I found another really nice one.  Check this one out.....

http://www.proshooter.org/raffle.html

It looks pretty schweeet...

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:45:50 (ZULU)

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:48:01 (ZULU)

These little puppies have been shot at 1000 yds (and 1000 meters) for a hell of a long time, and have done well.  Some years back, some yahoo invented the theory that bullets going "sub-sonic" was a terrible thing... and the bullets would buffet like the wings on a jet.

Now... nobody had problems before this invention of dubious wisdom, but once published, Oh wonder of wonders... it started happing all over the place... guys that shot a 114/200 at 1000 were now saying, "Damn, my bullets must have gone sub-sonic, or I woulda had a 199/19x".

Ain't that a wonderful excuse!

Now...the clasic 308 load of the 168 @ 2600 is real light in the loafers... a truely 300 and 600 yd "mid-range" load.

IF you are going to shoot at 1000, push them puppies out of the barrel a lot faster... maybe 2750 if you can get it (Not with no "LTR" ;).

First, you get there faster, for less wind and stuff, plus the 12" twist, at 2600 is maybe a bit marginal, so you can use the extra spin.

Consider this... those silly guys in Scotland, (the ones that wear dresses) shoot .308s and .303s at 2,400 yards all the time... and the bullets are sub-sonic for about 80% of the trip, and they don't tumble, buffet, or any other such crap.  Ask Sinister, he knows about it too!

Ya' think it's cuz those guys never read that theory??  Reading will ruin ya; every time ;))

-

'yote Bate...

>"So I guess that's why my re-entry 168's go to hell in a handbasket at 900 something. "<

No, you dumb bunny... it's cuz you need a longer barrel than 6" to get to 900 yds... try 9" for your Palma riffle ;))

-

CDC... I did that a while back.  It was very long, so later, I will do a search for it (hint "Spot" and "Weld" should find it ;).

If I can't find it, I will re-write it again.

-

Speakin' of bolt handles falling off from the "You know who" company...

I just ordered my first Remington "Off the Rack" riffle in about 12 years... a M700 Classic in .221 Fire-Ball, and do I have my fingers (and toes) crossed that I don't get a POS.

It's a damn shame when you order a Remington rifle, and have to pray that it ain't broke badd, right from the box :(((

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 16:08:43 (ZULU)

Everything else is pretty much the same.  Black sides. About 2100 US dollars.  Friends that have 'em say you can't tell the difference for the bucks.  Accuracy is the same.  Made to target the poor assed cop market we are always whining about.  

AWP gets you three position safety, a square receiver and full military specification if you need it. Comes with a 30mm one piece mount at twice the price.

AI was for a while using US made bbls. for the guns here.  They still have a small selection of them left in all standard contours etc. and will build you a "kit" gun as they call it.  Most complete rifles are English barreled now and "true" AIs if you want to look at it that way for all you purists out there or if you plan on selling it. I guess the thinking is that pure English may get you a little more for it.

6 of one.  Half a dozen of the other. They say they shoot. An AWP is probably fixing to be my next one. Scope is the big decision.

Later Pete !

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 17:24:42 (ZULU)

I don't want this question to start a war of posts but ...  you guys know what I do for a living and the distances (short to medium) and conditions (often at night) we operate at.

I got a new AWP coming and I need a scope.  SIMRAD capable (maybe).

Which ONE scope would you recommend that I can use both for Long Distance shooting like you guys (my heroes) and the Police Mission stuff I do for work most of the time.

I relize that LE Sniping and Camp Perry are really at opposite ends of the spectrum but give me your best shot. Doesn't have to be a long winded reply.  Just make, model and reticle.

You can shoot it to me off roster if you think it will start a bunch of shit.  

The Ford, Chevy, Dodge arguement ain't got shit on this one.

Thanks guys,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 17:44:23 (ZULU)

Why wont Sierra update the 168's BT angle?

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:04:12 (ZULU)

Kevin OTGWN, not a problem, no skin off my nose, or finish off my barrel LOL

Alan, no worries. Where there's a Will, there's a Rogers. Nope, Where there's a BILL there's a Rogers. Nope, where there's a Bill, it's my MAILBOX. Yeah. And there's a WAY those get to my mailbox, but I don't pick on the mail lady, 'cause she carries a mac 10. OK. Sorry. I was just mentioning that because as I recall - I don't own one - AI stocks are basically aluminium sticks with panels on 'em, right? OK, so the Wichita hardware has threads on it, basically using the swivel loop itself as a bolt head. The whole thing McMillan does is thread that stud into a plate in the stock. If the whole stock IS a plate, well, I'd think it would be easy. It would be a matter of drilling into that aluminum stock, threading it, putting some loc-tite in there, and putting in the Wichita. No biggie. For the rest of us without aluminium stocks, it becomes a little tougher LOL. Best way is to order it that way (we do ALL shoot McMillans, right?), but it CAN be done otherwise. Just more work. All you need is a router, some plate, and epoxy. And skill. Lots more skill than I've got. Basically doing what Mac would have done in production, just with more effort.

Bill, now, you quit that. First I'm tellin' fibs about wanting cookies and milk, now I'm stealing car parts? HA! I don't look at it like that. It's just taking parts from temporarily mobile self resupplying unauthorized recycled parts centers! Now you'll be telling everyone that I cheat at cards and only shoot to the south to keep that perpetual wind (the suction from OK) at my face 8p

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:09:05 (ZULU)

 We are neighbors.  I'll be in Hudson sometime next week as a matter of fact.  Checking up on your local (Army) recruiting station over by the Farm and Fleet.  Maybe you can stop by for a hello and a cup of java --or hell, I'll buy ya lunch!  Give me a email and we can detail link-ups...

Gents,

 My VXII vs M3 reticle question that was universally ignored (ya'll thunk I'se dumber n' dirt, didn't ya?)  was specifically "are the size  of the two versions' MIL-Dots the same (3/4 vs 1 mil dots)?  Dug around and answered on my own question though...sorry if it sounded dumb...it was the way I phrased the original post, I think...

 I sprung the (old-new) winney stealth 223 on my wife last night (anniversery-after the gems).  Best way to sneak a new gun into the house I have ever come up with.  Or so I thought...she took it out to the range today for break in.  I'm thinking that we have a convert on our hands...which over time means more sticks for "us" as opposed to "me"!  

Looking to buy a bigger safe...any thoughts on champion models (victory 25)?  Don't really wanna spend more than 1.5k unless you all tell me that anything less is a waste of money!

Two of four fractures are healed in my right hand...what a waste of a perfectly good target season!  At least Nicole is healing faster than my metacarsals!  I'll take that exchange anyday!!!!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
EC, WI, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:17:36 (ZULU)

The fixed 25 Loopy is tough, small, light and much cheaper.  25X works for your wind calls.  

Just my thoughts.  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:36:14 (ZULU)

You remember ole George Herters, I think there's still a company he started going around. He was an ole German Gun Smith type that asserted that sound barrier transistion ruined everything. He maintained it happened to 150's out of M1's about 850 yards but get this... it straightened back out on the original path by 1000. HOw the heck it is supposed to know where it's supposed to be is beyond me....but it went something like this. It rides the shock wave like a surfer rides a wave but eventually is back to the surface at the same place since all the energy is aimed at that point from the muzzle on out acknowledgeing the forces of wind and gravity. That ought to give somebody a migrain. ...Ok be that as it may.

MY snub nose sniper rifle shoots 168's right in the 10 ring at 800 yards. 900 is erratic sometimes 2 right together and one to hell and gone. At 1000 it's a yard size group most of the time. My .223 snubbie shoots OK till it hits the back side of the barrier and it goes to hell. It will outshoot my 22-250 to 550 or so and then the 22-250 eats it's lunch till it finds the barrier.

Now switch to VLD's A-max168's and  they don't shoot with the match kings at 500 but after 900 the snubbie .308 shoots 900 yards less than 9" and 1000 puts about 3 out of 5 right where they belong. What do you'all think. Is this my imagination? Or is it bearing out this business about sound barriers. do ya'll think theres nothin to it?

Now I've not shot a lot beyond the 800 yard. Half mile line  but I seem to be getting my lessons about it lately.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:52:26 (ZULU)

 For the best production glass available goto:

   http://www.schmidtbender.com/frames/scharf.htm

 I'm pretty sure they are Simrad compatable.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 19:22:07 (ZULU)

Does anyone know what boat tail angle the Nosler J4 168s are? I was just about to write this when I saw Bill mention the 168 VLDs and saw that I wasn't the only one thinking about the shape vs. performance of a 168 and not just the weight making the difference. I like the 168s. They shoot much better out of my 1 in 12" than the 175s. I figure if I need to go beyond 800 then that's why I have a 300WM ;)

On rifle weight,

I like a rifle about 12-15lbs. My .308 M40A1 clone with scope is right at 12.5lbs and feels good. My 300WM will be more once I get it back from my smith. Probably in the 14-15lbs area but that is fine with the heavier recoiling rifle. I wouldn't go much heavier if you had to drag it around but I guess that goes without saying.

On the Wichita swivels,

I had them installed on my McMillan HTG stock for my M40A1 clone. Very nice and strong. I haven't really heard of anyone doing a retro on them but that idea about drilling and taping the AICS is an excellent one and if I had one i'd give it a try.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 19:33:11 (ZULU)

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 19:44:14 (ZULU)

These puppies are not "New age".  The short, 13 degree boat tail is real old technology, and gas flow studies have shown it to be nada... but that not withstanding, if you like them, shoot them.  I use them in two rifles... my M21, cuz I can't get the velocity out of a 175 that I want, without beating the crap out of the op rod... and that ain't my 1,000 yard riffle anyway... and in a Winchester HBV/Stealth with a 12" twist, and a 2 foot long Unertl scope on it... it makes one hole groups with the 168's and that is fine with me.

But if you really need the best for long range, then heavier with longer boat tails is more betterer.

-

'yote Bate...

Of course I remember the old Herter's... in fact I bought some original Winchester Walnut Stain from them last year, to re-do the stock on an orginal M70 Heavy sniper riffle from the 'Nam era... and it WAS the orginal color ;))

Now here's one for you, ya' ol' booger... (or any one of youz other old moss backs)... do you remember the Herter's "Wasp Waist" bullets, that had a constricton in the middle of the body, so they looked like those old coke bottles... the rifling would only touch the front, and the back, but not the middle.

They shot good too.

Your 9" sniper riffle... you are just goint to have to learn to hump that heavy puppy around.  Maybe get a spotter to carry it (and the beer ;)

>" everything. He maintained it happened to 150's out of M1's about 850 yards but get this... it straightened back out on the original path by 1000. HOw the heck it is supposed to know where it's supposed to be is beyond me"<

I have heard this garbage from people that should know better, and I STILL hear it... the same with bullets "going to sleep... they make a 3" group at 50 yds, but a 1" group at 100 yds... how does the bullet know where the right direction is... especally with the world in front of it spinning at 250,000 RPM?

Did they ever hear of parallex?

Go figgure!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 21:59:57 (ZULU)

>>The swivels I use on the AI SLING is better than drilling. The swivels only recently became available.<<

You're calling this the AI SLING? Is this a special sling with swivels or just the different swivels? If you have a link that shows this/these, please post it.

I've got the AI 1.5 stock. Normally, I get my gear from U.S. Tactical Supply and would like to know when they'd have some.

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:03:09 (ZULU)

Duh.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:07:17 (ZULU)

Got to go with Kevin on the S&B's.  Tough bastards.  Good glass.

Except if I remember right elevation is in 1/3 incriments.  Mabye just an option though.  Not too pricy.  Shot behined one on an AWP for a while.  Good set-up.

Nice talking to you yesterday.

Anybody have experience with the DVC Armaments (GG&G) rifles?  Got Brant there working on a Super 90 for me and got on to their rifles.  Any experience?

Richard Johnson <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:32:27 (ZULU)

My FN SPR 26" bbl.,.308 w/ McMillan A2 stock, bipod, sling and ammo weights, 14.5lbs.

My Rem 700P 22" bbl., .308 w/ AICS, bipod, sling and ammo weights, 15.5lbs.

I don't remember what the M14 weights because I'm suffering from "old timers" but........I don't have to do the "Airborne Shuffle" in Ranger School while carring the M14 at Port Arms anymore.  So weight of a rifle doesn't really matter to me unless I get called back to do a mission.

Long Range Recon Patrols were spotters with sniping capability.  We were dropped off, humped a few clicks and settled down for the "wait".  Humping in an Infantry Platoon we used the Matel Toy (M16) which doesn't weigh as much as your spare ammo.  But we would hump ten to twelve hours a day.  I don't see "Snipers" deployed that way.  Yes, I go to the Military Web sites, CNN and CDC {;-).

I guess I don't understand why an extra 2 to 6 lbs. would make that much difference. I can loose that much water weight running 3 miles during the summer in my neighborhood.  But......my gear and tactics are over 30 years old.

Rambosky - Over..........

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:33:53 (ZULU)

One thing of note is the AI set up has all the quickness of the AI but rattles like the AI set up does.  The drill for studs gets rid of the rattle.  Thats the only way to get away from a rattle as long as AI uses a hook set up almost big enough to put a carabiner through.

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:52:09 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 23:18:57 (ZULU)

But I ain't CDC, Lito, or B. Robinson and am metrically challenged. If it ain't KISS simple, I'll mess it up.

But ... I take small comfort in the fact that what I lack in smarts I make up for in Chick Diggability (They really like it when I let them wear the balaclava).  Power trip for 'em I guess.

But I digress ...

So far, it's a toss up between a Schmidt and a Loopy III M1 LR - w/Gen 2 dots.

Ain't nobody mentioned Nightforce.  Lots of operational policemen over at Snipersonline that also win sniper matches really like the things. Mike T/partner /D. Bartlett/ J. Peterson et al.

I know my Brit friend Pete don't care for 'em much and that carries weight too.

Nobody's hollering USO either. yet

Guess we'll see.

I enjoyed speaking with you also.  We would probably have no problems and be right on the same page if we worked together. Used to have a partner like that. Didn't even have to talk. One knew what the other was thinking.  Sure miss that one ... one helluva shot.

Later bro

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 23:57:18 (ZULU)

Stealth: Badger base and MAX 50 rings, Leupold LRM3, Harris lightweight and Mikes Sling, 12lbs unloaded on the bathroom scale.

Gumby III: Rem 700LA, McMillan A3, Badger bottom metal/Base/Standard Rings, 26" SS #7 taper, Nightforce NXS 50mm scope, harris lightweight, Miller sling, unloaded = 15lbs.

I can't believe how much 3lbs feels like.  I'd have sworn Gumby  weighed close to 18lbs and it makes the Stealth feel light as a feather. (spend about 6 hours in the woods with the stealth and you'll see it's definelatly no damn feather)  This has proven to me that if you use a quality 22" barrel, good ammo and make a sensible scope selection, you can have an excellent 1K shooter in the 10 or 11 lbs range without sacrificing anything but weight.  17lbs now sounds INSAIN to me.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 01:06:47 (ZULU)

How much ammo does 2 lbs make? That's how much 2 lbs is! And you can feel that 2lbs on occasion real sharply.

6" of heavy bbl. weighs 2lbs easy. In .308 it costs about 70 fps max. Reduces the radius of barrel whip somewhat and gets the job done just about as good.  

Brian; how smart is the guy who's gonna use this scope thingy?

1. He can tie his shoes and chew gum at the same time but barely.

2. He thinks he's a Tom Cruise look alike but can't divide by 2 with out a calculator.

3. He has a sister in law that's a real swamp fox.

4. He can't do mil dot math in the dark without his mag light.

5. Has never wrestled a gator past noon in deep water.  

IF the answer is yes to all 4. I recommend he gets a Sheperd P2.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:08:53 (ZULU)

Metrically challenged?

Hell, I'm math-challenged!

That's why I came up with my gizmo, so's I wouldn't have to fiddle-fart around with a calculator, much less in the dark. (Color on the device was chosen to work well with red illumination.)

Swivels:

Witchita's standard on the Chandler.......money well spent. Get 'em.

Dunno about retrofitting them, but definitely specify them on a new rifle.

BRogers,

Yer preachin' to the choir with me. Norm built me a 20" job that has turned me evangelical. Ken will not let me near any of his sticks unless I go through a metal detector, lest I have a hacksaw.

Although his 28" tubes will shoot further (by 8 inches).

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:35:46 (ZULU)

I have exactly two boxes of white box M118 National Match setting on my book case as my last LOT of ammo in that grade.  I also have two boxes of white box M72 National Mach 30.06 and two boxes of white box M852 National Match.  They are my book case trophies of years past.  

Kevin - Thank you for bringing that up.  I was in sky diving mode of thought and not dirty old man mode.  Yes guys, for those that do not know, tandem is when a qualified jumper attaches a non jumper to his chest and flings the non jumper and him (or her) self out of a perfectly good aircraft.  My wife has watched but never participated.  Figured if I could get her out once she would be hooked and I could start spending money on that little game again.  She hates all of my expensive hobbies.  :-)

Oh yes Kevin, did the sheepies work?  ;-)

Cat man - Heck you would of been a good foot taller if so much hadn't have turned under.  My son wears size 15 and I use them as canoes.  He hates that.  On the 168 gr, It was originally built for 300 meter International and was then found to shoot great at 600 yards.  Due to this a bunch went with it for cross course use. The 168 in 7 mm Mag will hammer at 1000 but as you said the "standard" 168 in .308 is really too slow for 1000.  Need to push it harder to get there.  Question though is why when there is the 175 and it works great at that range.  Lito be careful with the 175s in your M21.  The trigger takes it tough from the heavy bolt recoil just as the operating rod does.  I have replaced two different triggers now from guys shooting those suckers from their Springfields.  You mean you have to set parallex at 25 and 30 yards just like at 200 and 500 yards.  Yes JB DOUBLE HA!!!!

Larry - Seen two handles come off in 15 years.  Yes same company and both times were rapid bolt manipulation drills.  While the guys had arms like gorillas, the reason was pure and simple piss poor silver soldering of the bolt handle to the bolt body.

Joe - Never saw the question in my scaning but a mil dot space is a mil dot space.  It equals 1 mil and one mil is a thousandth of a radian which makes the spacing equal to 3.438 or 3.44 moa to the mil.  the difference is the dot size of 3/4 moa verses 1/4 mil in the football shape.  If this does not match with what you got then email me and I'll give you more data and some training aids if necessary.  Man have I spread those things around.  :-)

Brian - The new SIMRAD, which they will update an old ot a new for a nominal fee, will fit on most any glass now.  If you already have a scope in mind then it should fit.  Make sure it is variable becasue you will find that the post objective liens type NODs work much better at lower powers.  Since you can't read wind at night then shooting past 350 to 400 becomes problematic anyway.  Another night vision device that works well but is EXPENSIVE is Reed Knights Universal.  Must have a special mount for day scope and night scope though.  I can say that the new Premier Reticle is a honey.  We just got two example of the 12-45 Loopie with the new reticle.  It is in the first focal so stays in relation all the way through the power settings very nice.  This on the M1 LR (shudder, I hate .25 moa scopes) or the M3 LR should work well.  The S&B is very good and we are looking at it for that type of work as well.  The 1 cm is also 1/3 inch per click at 100 yards.  No big deal, no math conversion.  I believe this to be better then the .25 moa scope as at 100 yards it moves the bullet the diameter of the bullet and not less then the diameter as the .25 moa dial does.  We have a bunch of scopes that we will be looking at over the next several months.  Will let you guys know how it turns out.  We are a bit tough on scopes.  

;-)

Well that was long winded tonight.  Guess I will have myself a tall cool glass of shut the heck up now.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:35:59 (ZULU)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:42:34 (ZULU)

HERTER'S! Now THAT brings back memories. Used to wait for the catalog. Lot's of color glossy stuff and absolutely the "worlds finest" everything! Used their "farbenglass" arrows to take my first archery buck. Still have the arrow...

As for "wasp waist" bullets...I remember them, but was to young to play with them at that point in time. Damn, this brings back GOOD memories!

Spent the past two days feeling poorly. Not what I want to do on my days off.

Am rebuilding my kit this next month for hunting season. The new Tactical Advantage Assault Pack Plus is the ticket, gents. Comfy, enough room for your gear, spotting scope, etc. Dandy to shoot over, as well. Give'm a look see...you'll like it.

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:50:29 (ZULU)

                              I, too was too young to play with them. Could just look at them in Herters wish book and dream. I have a pet theory about their purpose. They would cut down on bullet bearing area to permit a heavier, longer bullet to be driven faster with less pressure. Similar to the long 140gr bullet that Winchester loaded in their .264WM. If I'm not mistaken their engineers specified a 140gr loading so the .264 would show a reasonable advantage over their .270, but they had to cut down on the bullet bearing surface by going to a two diameter bullet to keep pressures where they wanted them.

Rick,

     A new buffer design to stop the 'twang'? Heck, I've been packing the spring with some grease, just like most of the Service Rifle guys around here, to quiet down 'Matty Mattel' ;-) Does this new invention really work? Would help in the mind over matter dept!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 04:21:19 (ZULU)

Today got a letter from Winchester telling me to return the remaining white box ammunition type Q3131 lot# PE30 for testing and evaluation.  

They included a shipping label.

They also said they would compensate me for the ammunition when the tests were complete...

Unknown how long tests would take or what compensation they would offer. BUT it is better than pulling down 500 .223 rounds for re-assembly with new powder...

dennis hill <1armstronghill@lvcm.com>
Henderson, NV, usa - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 04:51:29 (ZULU)

Been called out on coyote duty at the airport again this mornin. This ought to be fun. First time since 9/11. If I ain't back in 36 hours send lawyers to BMG.

Later,

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 10:25:25 (ZULU)

#6  "If his older sister, his teacher, and his girlfriend are all the same person"!

-

Bruce...

Did you ever get SWFA to dump that article that had two different mildot spacings??

-

Rick-ster...

>"Lito be careful with the 175s in your M21.  The trigger takes it tough from the heavy bolt recoil just as the operating rod does..."<

That's why I don't shoot no 175s in the M21... just as long as I don't get no "Trigger recoil" that can be heard for a klik, then I'm all right!

Are you guys looking "hard" at the .408 CheyTac... I got into a "cat fight" (HA!!) with Warren Jensen over on Longrangehunting.com last week, and he swears that you guys are still hot for their rifle, and his bullets... also seems that on his website, he claims that West Point Military Academy awarded him a degree in "Ordnance Engineering"... but West Point says his degree is in Public Relations... Would our military buy a $10,000 sniper system from a "PR" man... why not, PR guys sell us soap and dish detergent on TV... Hmmmm Sure a lotta spin coming out that bunch.

-

ALAN...

You are right on the .264 thing... I had one of the Winchester Westerners with a 26" bbl, in those days, and loved it.  Now those kinda bullets are called "Bore Riders".

The cartridge was a good one, but suffered from short barrels.  A medium weight barrel (.80" muzzle) that was 28" long would make the .264 into a bolt of lightening.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 14:28:26 (ZULU)

I've used them on M3s, M3LRs, and M1-16X.  The problem with the 16X was like looking at a TV screen with a set of binos from 10 feet away -- you see individual lines because of the magnification.  On the plus side, with the target illuminated wih your spotter's active IR laser (AN/PAQ-4) you can positively identify targets by face (i.e., that's so-and-so, there's Mr. Mustache, there's Gucci glasses, etc.).  The last time I did this was in 1994, shooting through glass on a night with zero (none, no, positively three feet up a cow's backside black, overcast/no starlight night).  Three shooters, three kills, 150 - 175 meters, elevation down from five floors.

Rick, there was a guy ("Tony") at the Fayetteville gun show that sold a stainless steel knock-off of the Tubb carrier weight for the M16 ($20 instead of $50).  It works!  I found it smooths out rapids recoil and bounce so it seems I have more time to aim and concentrate.  I have a genuine Tubb in the AR-10T and it does seem to help on the brass (primers aren't flat) than without.

The Tubb recoil springs are genuinely quieter than the GI (which I used to grease the heck out of to avoid the Mattel "Sproing-oing" after trigger squeeze).  The bolt and carrier seem to go forward with a more solid (for aluminum and plastic) "Clack".  Can't seem to figure out why.  I like them.

I found mag wheel weight strips (about 10 inches long by 1/4 inch wide) with double sided tape ready to mount at the auto supply store.  I used four strips (box of a dozen was $10, I think).  You can either tape them to the free-float tube or the inside of the handguard.

I'm wondering whether or not to use the 14 for across the course (I'm struggling to shoot a 184-186 at 600 with a 16, but I can shoot a 197 with a 14 without trying.  Damn old eyes).

I've never heard "Reed Knight" and "Affordable" in the same conversation.

If Mrs. Bowcher wants to make a jump, just let me know.

Curt I's Redfield Palma sight came apart on him during one of the 1,000 yard matches at Perry.  He had to clear the line, run back to the tool box, and reassemble the damn thing (with the clock still running).  Great story.  Once he had the thing back together (I'm surprised he found all the balls and springs) he started dinging 10s and X's again.

Sam Ohlinger, one of the Ohio junior shooters, shot really well with an M14 at 1,000 yards last year.  My dad was teaching him to read wind.  Sam's dad, Mike, got him a used Model 70 earlier this year and after three or four tries at 1,000 used it for the long-range matches at Perry, scoring a 431 out of 450 in the Palma.  It was good enough to get him a seat on the under-25 Palma Team that will represent the United States at Bisley (England) in July, 2003.

He's a junior in high school.

Gear weight definitely makes a difference.  My last XO took impressive records and documented his long-distance times over ground validating Selection routes for new candidates.  Jungle boot times were faster than "Leg" boot times.  Adidas GSG-9 boot (like high-top sneakers) times were 15% faster than with regular combat boots.  Pounds equals fatigue or other gear (water at 8 pounds a gallon, or batteries, or chow).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 14:35:39 (ZULU)

John; good luck on them Port dogs! I can see it now! "Officers...There's a camoed Redneck on the Tarmack with a Sniper Rifle,,,making sounds like he's wounded! Deploy the team ASAP. Use extreme caution, subject is Armed and considered mentally deranged and highly dangerous!"

This AR mod is sounding pretty good. I hate that sound. Sounds like a spring came off in the car door!

The .264 Winchester as a lightning bolt is a good analogy. Beautiful accurate, turn a Antelope upside down at 800 yards rifleman's rifle. Barrel cost bedamned. That one gets the job done. And it don't take your head off doin it. MOst were made after 1964 if not all if my memory ain't plumb gone. Lito would remember if he can remember those Herter bullets... Not Winchesters' finest moment but that cartridge was a humper.  

Herter, claimed he made the trigger for M1 Garands. IF he did, that was a fine work. I looked it up last night. He claims a bullet moves 10 to 12 inches upon re-entry and then due to force and gyroscopic effect if returned by 1000 to it's original path. This one could be equated to the spinning of a kid's top.(my analogy not his) Subjected to all kinds of forces and yaw it eventually spins it's self vertical to gravity and smooths itself by "geo distribution "(I made that term up Lito, it isn't a gap in your knowledge or nuthin, I didn't wanna panic attack there..). Seriously every thing I've ever done at the ranges mentioned bears this out. Every cartridge I've ever used extensively at all goes to all at 1200 fps or thereabouts. I was recently shooting .308 vlds at 900 into a real stiff wind. All hell was breaking loose and I couldn't hit anything. 2.5 foot groups and some completely off the board. I just cussed and went to town.  The next morning the wind was exactly opposite (normal in Kansas) and blowing like hell again but behind me. Both winds were pretty straight and not too gusty but would blow your hat off. The groups were all right at 1 MOA or slightly more. Same ammo,gun,shooter,temp,altitude, don't remember barometer checking.

I was happy but wondering what I had done to correct it. I MOVED to 1000 and thought I'd get some good groups in spite of the wind.

I would have had trouble hitting a jeep. (I should explain for those not in tune to this discussion that I think the round was going subsonic with the head wind accord to the computer that was pretty close to the barrier. The next day I think the wind behind me kept it above the barrier to some extent. My son who was spotting at 100 meters said the sound of the bullet going past was quite a bit different than the day before but that could be for other reasons I guess. Palma shooters all seem very concerned about the sound barrier thing. I don't believe those long barrels are there just to  make a faster bullet out of those 150's without consideration of the barrier.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 15:16:55 (ZULU)

In an article by John Taylor, he says that when bullets go sub-sonic, they turn 45 degrees down, (and, of course, go straight to the earth)... I can't figgure that kind of stuff being in PS magazine, but who knows.  I think that the Editor/Publishor is sweet on that bunch.

I had e-mails with the author and asked, if his statement was true, then how come 30 cal tracers (that go sub-sonic at aroung 600 yds) can be seen flying out to 2,000+ meters without any 45 degree change in direction, and he ducked the question.

I wonder how those Scotties get them raggity .303s bullets to go all the way out to 2,400 yards??

-

By the way... where the hell is the Bolt-ster?

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 15:43:28 (ZULU)

CDC, on the drag bag that rolls up like a sock.  If you gou to Snipershide.com.  You will find an equipment area for Desert Specialties and he makes one.   Its around 40.00-50.00 bucks and what you are looking for.  His name is Mike Dismuke, a hell of a nice guy and a former Recon Marine Captain.

Sinister, how are the Simrads working for your brother?  I have tried some NVDs but always comes back to too much light in the city.  Seems like just a good day scope is all you need until you go inside a buildng.  Every NVD I ave used on the outside, with normal city lights flared out.  While were at it tell him I am going down to Liggett Septemeber 13-15 and theres room if any of his guys want to join in.  Three days running exercises with UKD targets and such.  I was supposed to bring my guys down for mutual training with NG but we are right in the middle of two weeks of range training with them so no over time will be approved.  I am just going on my own.  I promised the NG.  You figure out the slings yet?

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 16:31:12 (ZULU)

Your comment was exactly what I was afraid of. No 'yotes to be found. 20 knot wind blowin right in my face all mornin. Misty rain and low clouds. Nothin was movin, not even deer. Gotta go back till I get at least one. That keeps 'em off the active for awhile. I stayed on the back side of a small hill away from the road. I don't think anyone even knew I was there. Perfect.

Remind me to tell you the story about the Dali Llama coming to Bloomington, the same week I took delivery of the Barrett, at the airport the first time I assembled it. It's funny now, hell, it was funny for "me" then, the Feds weren't laughin till it all got straightened out.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 16:58:47 (ZULU)

                    I still have my early 1960 built M70 Westerner with factory stainless barrel. Bought it NIB at a sports store in late 1964. It had been sitting there for four years without even a nibble, something about barrel life;-) so they clearanced out all of those old models to make room for the new stock! Bet they would like to take that move back. Started out with a 6x Weaver and changed to a 4-12 Redfield in about 1974, which it still wears today. Even though I hunted with it for years, and still use it when I'm lucky enough to draw for pronghorn, it's only got about 400+/- rounds through it so the barrel looks like new, and the only visible wear is some blue at the muzzle, along the barrel, bolt handle, and trigger guard, mostly from a saddle scabbard. This thing's going to my grandson, but I've got a strong feeling that he'd better take up handloading if he's gonna use it!

                      'yote bate's right, since they only made these from 1960 thru 1963, the "new model" is much more prevalent. It's a shame, but you can probably blame "pre-'64" collectors like me for drying up the supply.

Rick or Sinister,

                Could you supply contact info for the Tubbs spring and buffer?

TIA,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 17:15:42 (ZULU)

Dave you are right when you said that Reed and cheap or affordable was ever used in the same sentence.  He is known for making some real wild stuff and charging just as wildly.  He does piss me off though when he charges for fixing his screw ups. (SRs jump right to my mind) how about your's?  :-)

Yeah that was one of the first things Curt told me when he got back.  Told him about the rubber bands and the Brits during the Palma matches.  He says he will keep his repair kit a bit more handy next time, and will have a good rolling shooting cart for those line changes.  Taught the new students yesterday on the iron sights, told them to count down and right to record for return to zero purposes.  When I told them that 99 times out of 100, if they took their buddies sight, counted from bottom and from right, that they would be zeroed within .5 to 1 moa.  they looked at me like "OK you old fart, we are going to act like we believe you."  Monday range all day and they get to start counting.

'Lito - No we are not, neither, to my knowledge, is anyone else in the Army SOF program.  Now SEALs have more money then brains so no telling with the Squids.  It was demoed for us and it was told to them to come back when you have it working properly.  Nuff Said.  

Alan - It is sold by Tubbs and it works very well indeed.  The weight and spring runs about 60.00 and you can get them through Sinclair International, 2330 Wayne Haven Street, Fort Wayne, Indiana 46803, tel# 1 260-493-1858, they are also on the net at www.sinclairintl.com, however they do not list the tubbs bolt weight only the tubbs buffer spring.  As stated above it makes it feel like a real rifle and I know that that is only Pschological when you hear the twang and feel that mushy return.  But hey, I'm albout being macho and nonsense like that.  I even admit to laughing my head off in '92 when they were first talking about the 5.56mm for serious long range.  Guess I now eat crow everytime I see these guys.  UGH!  :-)

CDC - Look at cutting down an old fatigue pant leg and closing the end a draw string after sewing the other end shut.  Us an old mil blanket as padding inside the trouser leg and you have a pocket form the trouser leg already.  rolls up small and is enought o protect the weapon as long as yo do your job of controlling the weapon.

Mike - I too have had problems with NVDs flaring and that is one of the really good things about the SIMRAD.  If the light is enough to cause flare then the shot can be taken with the day scope.  Flip up the prism door and by pass the NVD, you now can use the day scope without dismounting the night scope.

Agree with the Gen II reticle.  Got the new scopes with them and they are really nice!  Now for the smart a**ed question, do you really think that he will change since he didn't invent it and it isn't his idea?  Just a thought.  We are getting in a bunch of equipment for demoing and the Lieca 1200 is a honey!  The 20 x stabilized binos are a dream and I can't wait for the new S&Bs and other stuff to come in.  I would consider some of that stuff for your projects Mike.  Will try to get more info to you later as we get testing and demoing completed.

Hold hard guys, have to go back to yard work, chock gag chock!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 17:34:56 (ZULU)

If the wind is 20 Knots you might try setting up where you can see about 600 down wind if possible. I'd guess the country is kinda wooded though and if you can't see over a hundred it's futile  to hunt down wind.

Wiley can smell you at 600 in that kind of wind. He will circle until he gets down wind unless it takes him to max exposure. If you can figure where he will come from and circle too. It might work to ambush him there.  I always call down wind if the wind is over 5mph. The call carries farther and since he is hunting you instead of the other way around he will eventually turn up down the tube from you. IF he is downwind and stops, takin the shot right then is probably the best you can get. My dog picks up anything coming in from upwind and lets me know if she's along. But lots of times I first see him down wind anyway even though she has spilled the beans on him. I try to stay invisible to dogs coming from upwind and it very seldom happens unless the wiley flunked his rabbit hunting course.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 18:25:03 (ZULU)

Geo. Leonard Herter in Professional Loading pg. 545

        titled     The Impossible Range for Rifles

 "When rifle bullets lose some rotation, the sound barrier causes them to "yaw" widely, sometimes as much as ten or twelve inches.

 On the 30-06 this second "yaw" area occurs at about 800 yards with most bullets. The bullet then goes back to it's "pre-yaw" course and continues on its same accurate course, This is why no long range matches are ever fired at 800 yards but at 1000 yards to make sure that the bullet has range enough to again get back on it's course. "

  In my experience this all happens but it don't quite remember where it was! Group size at ranges after the barrier are disproportional to the sized before allowing for expansion based on range. I don't know to tell the truth what I think about this.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 18:53:01 (ZULU)

Obviously the only way to settle this "Herters, bullet yawing 45 degrees etc" thing is to get Triggerfifty's-sooper-dooper-deathstar-boolit-radar gun to take up close pictures of the bullet while in fight for it's whole trajectory. ;)))

Later,

Rich S.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 19:45:24 (ZULU)

Copy this line or click my name for the Tubb Carrier Weight System and recoil spring:

http://www.zediker.com/tubb/images/speedlock/slscws2.html

Mike, funny you should mention the slings.  Since there weren't any pictures in the instructions (remember, me cave-man) I couldn't figure them out and thought "Take the 14, you know how that works."  Stupid me.

I'll let my brother know about Hunter-Ligget (he's right in the middle of a house closing and purchasing a new place, which isn't going smoothly and is why he couldn't get to Perry this year).

The Navy sometimes seems to have more money than sense when it comes to guns and gadgets, but they often produce really neat toys by thinking "Out of the box" (I guess in that sense I am also not just a little jealous).  Some of their failures are real boner-chihuahuas, but then again they may only be buying a few before someone's "Does this make sense?" light goes on.  They have considerably more successes than failures, and the rest of the force is better off because of them.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 20:57:06 (ZULU)

You guys getting any info on the news about the two Brit squaddies that have been shot in kabul, the news here ain't telling us much.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 21:20:27 (ZULU)

Long Range shooters.

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin <sdzupin@optonline.net>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 21:25:15 (ZULU)

Litoman; why didn't I thank of that? Heck we don't need no pictures we just will catch it on the RADAR! The doppler shift should show it slowing down disporportionatly after it enters the human side of the sound barrier and gets it's 45 dagress status.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 21:55:07 (ZULU)

                 Many thanks for the Tubb info. I'll order my first set on Monday!

Pete L,

       Like you, I've heard very little on the news on the 2 Brits in Kabul story, execpt that it was at the airport? Probably were mistaken for Yanks :-((

       I know that you're an S&B man, but have you ever checked out www.usoptics.com for alternatives? I don't own one yet (mucho dinero) but they're very impressive. Had use of my first one today at the range on an AI, of all things.USO had installed an M1913 interface, worked as advertised. Besides, Mikey likes 'em;-)

Jon B. told me that Colorado must be a really big state for a tiny mosquito to get here all the way from Egypt carrying a virus. I answered that it was suspected that it's some kind of primitive radical Islamist terror weapon, so we were considering sending Cruise Missles back in return;-0

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:05:55 (ZULU)

I am a pretty solid handgunner ( read: "high power rifle novice" ) but I've started shooting in a service rifle match recently, hence the purchase of the M1A. My question is this: is the setup they offer even worth $124? I've heard a real mixed bag of reviews for the Springfield optics. Any feedback would be cool.

PS- I shoot the matches with iron sights, but the price on this deal seems like a steal IF the scope is okay.

Matthew McDonough <mattjmcd@yahoo.com>
monrovia, ca, usa - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:07:02 (ZULU)

Rem 700 varmint, 6 m&m rem.  Have 2 stocks for it.  Wood/acraglass then HS synthetic.  The HS started out unbedded, then I bedded the action in devcon.  The tang and the recoil lug through the first inch of the barrel are bedded in the wood stock and in the HS.

First shot from a cold bore (clean or not) goes three full inches low in the the wood/acraglass stock, and, before I bedded it in devcon, the HS stock did the same thing.  The first shot from the rifle with the HS stock bedded in devcon goes two inches low.  After the first shot, the rifle shoots acceptably.

Somebody, anybody, why is this stinking thing making my life miserable?  

Rick, Mike, & Bill:  Thanks for the suggestions on the lightweight gun cover for the field.

Pablo:  Man, you're ruthless.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:42:27 (ZULU)

good ironsites and quick detach scope mount? Also, is there a

adjustable stock made for this rifle? What is the best (1x9) rifle

twist for 55-62 grain ammo? I will be shooting thousands of rounds

with this. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Contact me at

beckrodgers@aol.com

beckrodgers <beckrodgers@aol.com>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:44:26 (ZULU)

A buddy picked up a NIB AI AE for 2 Grand even.  The guy had bought ten originally and this was the last of them.  Sweeeeeet.

Also got me one of those itty bitty Kel Tec .32s for New Orleans shorts/T shirt weather.

LITO: The City buys me .308M - 4 cases at a time - so I have always skimmed over the magic Varget load you guys are always talking about.

Can you shoot it to me for my buddy with the AE so I don't have to surf.  24 in. bbl on the beast if it matters.

Thanks for the scope posts fellas.

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:59:12 (ZULU)

Ive read about USO and seen their catalogue and web site, but i don't realy like the look of em,too bulky, the S&B PMII variables are big and heavey enough, ive not seen a USO scope over here, I went onto the S&B's a few years ago cos i got sick of Leupolds breaking and then having to wait months untill i got em back repaired, The quality of the S&B's is second to none, I haven't had one break on me yet, only problem i have had was sluggish adjustment on an older scope where the internal lubricant had congealed,I dropped the scope of on my way to work and picked it up at the end of the week on my way home, they had changed the lubricant for the stuff they use these days and the scope has been fine since.I can't do that with a scope made in the US or the far east, I like to stick with what i know works and the S&B's can't be beat for performance, i just wish they would listen when i go on about them introduciing different models, a 4-16 x42 PMII for example, they just brought out a combined illuminated ret and paralax adjustment control, maybe they will get around to some other stuff next year.

CDC, just cut some barrel of the thing.

Mathew, Springfield=Hakko.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 00:11:49 (ZULU)

Palma shooters? I thought they used the horizontal steel telephone poles to get the front sight out there where it did the most good. Sight radius is like ammo. Too much? Not enough.

Kittywhacker, "That's why I don't shoot no 175s in the M21... just as long as I don't get no "Trigger recoil" that can be heard for a klik, then I'm all right!". Might want to change that curly thing that goes in the op rod once every other decade. Might help.

Black rifles without twang? That's like a sober country singer. The question would be WHY 8p

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 00:12:59 (ZULU)

beckrodgers <beckrodgers@aol.com>
Bartlett, TN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 01:29:02 (ZULU)

good ironsites and quick detach scope mount? Also, is there a

adjustable stock made for this rifle? What is the best (1x9) rifle

twist for 55-62 grain ammo? I will be shooting thousands of rounds

with this. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Contact me at

beckrodgers@aol.com

beckrodgers <beckrodgers@aol.com>
Bartlett, TN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 01:33:49 (ZULU)

   I think we should help Saddam landscape his country. Every time I see Iraq on the news, it looks like a dirt pit.

   Therefore, I suggest that we load up some B52's with cluster bombs full of kudzu and fire ants. That would give a little bio-diversity.

   LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 02:32:30 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 02:48:05 (ZULU)

Although his 28" tubes will shoot further (by 8 inches)."

BruceR. and other short barrel freaks:  Get off the short barrel kick. Now you all know that the longer your barrel is - the less exposure your boolet will have to the elements. Lookin at your dinky assed 20 incher - my 28 incher has 8 more inches of undisturbed flight it can impart on the boolet.

Besides that - we all know that the longer your barrel is, the better....ahh hell... never mind...

Ducking down for this one.....

ken hunter <ken@hunters.org>
Desert Country, Northern Va , USA (Under God) - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 03:13:51 (ZULU)

How's things coming along? Has 'BF' bit the dirt yet or is the story still unfolding? All the best there my friend.

Will be throwing together some serious M1A loads with the SA NM barrel and using the FN berdan brass. What's your favorite recipe to get this load cooking? Have on hand Hornady 168 A-Max, 178 A-Max and Sierra 175 SMKs. Lots of Varget on hand too but not sure about the powder with the ideal burn rate for the M1A with any of these pills.

I'll probably be calling you soon about getting the ARMS 18 mount good and solid. Got the quick detach ARMS rings in too but haven't had a chance to put that together either. Been a b***h of a summer...and not over yet :((

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 03:45:10 (ZULU)

 There is currently a hunt for an abducted little girl nearby- parents shot in their home. Hug those kids and be ever vigilent friends.

  Later.

     Bill

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 03:48:03 (ZULU)

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 04:01:33 (ZULU)

 I dismount my ole Chevy and head up the biggest sand hill I can find just to see if I can get up there one more time. The southeast all day wind has dropped. Sunset looms in the western sky like a thousand lazers and the colors take what little breath is left after the climb. I glass for anything moving but the sage is quiet. Nothing moves. I can't resist any longer and turn back toward the sunset. No rain till last week for 11 months. The prairie is stressed beyond belief. I Wonder if there are any coyotes left. ahhhhooooo! (who are you?) finally comes the call. 4 more follow from different directions. I pull my howler from my pocket. arrroooooeeee! > the old man that you know! I try to sound as real as I can . aoooweaarreee (Your slowin down comin up that hill old man!). yip yip...>Don't fret it rabbit chaser! I made it up the hill!) areeeooo..(That you did ole man! What you doin here so early.. it's only August.) ....>Just takin in the Sunset boys, can't afford to miss one anymore..

ypeeeeeeeeeeee! ...(Know what you mean...The rest of you kibitzers. shut up this ole man and me know each other..ok ole man   And how long we been meetin on this hill ole man?.);.>ahhhooooeeyip yip.>Bout 5 years I'd reacon since you sent that pup to check out my call and got him killed! ..(aroooeeehaa..well he was a dumb pup , he would never have lasted through the season anyway besides I wasn't really sure if that was a real rabbit, it coulda been. ....Well I guess you'll be back come October?)...> IF I make it that far ole dog! ... (I figured as much..hey if I've got this case of mange still..you know the drill, I'd freeze to death this winter anyway right?)  ...>I'll keep it in mind ole dog! JUst don't get too careless this ole hill would be lonely sure nuff without you ole boys, that sunset was something but.... ahooo yip yip...( You humans just don't know how to appreciate that moon up there do you?)...>  Guess not like you dogs do! anyway..see you when the snow flies....yip yip arooo ( You still don't sound like a coyote with that thing!)..... Reckon I'll never learn it for sure! See you later. arpyipeerroooo (Not if we see you first! ) yip yip ..>ha! fat chance eagle bait! yip yahoo(We seen you 10 miles away .... hey leave me a few bitches just in case I make it thought the winter!)

>I'll consider it... stay off the highway ole sport!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 04:55:41 (ZULU)

          If you could fill a book with that kind of prose it'd sell a million copies! Made me feel as if I was there. Great post, thanks.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 05:20:32 (ZULU)

"Caution-This product contains natural rubber latex which may cause allergic reactions and gagging."

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, CA, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 06:35:50 (ZULU)

Rick, are the 175s that much harder on the '14 than the 168s?  I'd like to use the same load (FGMM 175) for the bolt gun and the M21 to keep ammo types to a minimum and interchangeable.

How many cummulative rounds are causing this premature wear?  If it's grossly accelerated wear and tear, then using the 168s in the M21 would make sense.  

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 06:43:00 (ZULU)

Thanks for the tip, I've never tried that. I am almost always dealt a SW wind. Very limited shot angle due to narrow minded neighbors and airport management downtown. Range card shows min. 250 yd., max, over 1200 yd. so maybe I'll try to get behind 'em on the 1200 yd side. I'm shootin 223/55 Vmax @ 3200. Nobody, and I mean nobody liked the idea of anything larger from a management aspect. I've got a 600 Rem. in .243 that is wonderful for this kinda thing. The .308 was poo pooed from the start. The looks turned downright mean when I mentioned the .50 from the roof of the control tower. No sense of humor at all. I'm impressed with your composition, write a book before you climb that hill the last time. I'll take 2 copies. I'm late, see ya later,

John

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 10:36:02 (ZULU)

Haven't shot a .308 Varget load???????????

BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!!!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 12:24:57 (ZULU)

I'm pretty sure you can get the S&B scopes in quarter minute adjustments as an option. You definately can in the new 4 turret PMII and as it is basically the same as the regular PMII 3-12x50 I can't see it being a problem. Especially if it's a LE or Military order.

At least everyone on a team would be talking the same language, even if is is those old fashoned Imperial units, eh Pete?

Mark D

PS Yotebait, I'll have a pint of whatever it is you've been drinking....;-))

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 13:00:23 (ZULU)

Can you post a link to the new PMII's with the 1/4 moa adjustment?  I have been over their web site quite a bit and can't find that as an option for the 34mm scopes.

PeteR,

How you feelin' mang?  Hope all betterer now, and youse back under the bridge (did I hear the bridge constructed of empty 8lbs VarGet kegs?) where you belong. ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 13:32:34 (ZULU)

You ornery old varmint, will you please hurry up and write that book so I can read it before it's too late?!?!?

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 13:36:38 (ZULU)

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 14:08:28 (ZULU)

You are hereby sentenced to drink beer from an empty 8# Varget container for the next 30 days. Bailiff, remove this man from my courtroom.

Adjourned,

No 'yotes this mornin', either. Dang it!!!

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 15:18:00 (ZULU)

I was loading and shooting around 500 rounds a week counting the .22 stuff. Hell, I hunted with pistols for years.  Squirrels too.  THAT was fun.  10" Ruger auto w/ 3X Burris and RWS ammo. 1/2" grps off the bench at 50.  Ole man Burris sure was a cool ole guy before he died.  He used to take care of us if we had a problem. Great pistol scopes.

Had to quit it all when I went to work straight nights with no weekends off for seven years for less money.  Quit a good job to be a cop.  Hey, I never said I was smart. ha !

A mean ole divorce and two kids later, I can't afford to travel around and shoot like you guys.  Sure would be nice though.  If not for any other reason than to shut 'Lito up. ha ! just kidding lito.  Hell, I miss it all.

Sold all my old loading stuff except for some trimmers, a tumbler, etc.  Seems like there's plenty of better reloading stuff out there since I got out of competitive shooting in 88.

Sure would like to try some of that F Class stuff some day.

What's the hot ticket press and powder measure for rifle stuff these days anyway ?

Later ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 15:35:55 (ZULU)

Ole Coonass been huntin all day.  Ain't seen nuttin.  Gettin dark, a Pelican floats lazily by an de Coonass blasts him.

Gamewarden watched him do it and took him to jail.  The next morning at the arraignment, the judge says:

"Mr. Thibodeaux I see here that you a shot a pelican".

Yessir.

"Did you know it is against the law to shoot a pelican ?"

Yessir.

"Did you know that the pelican is an endangered species ?"

Yessir.

"Did you know that the pelican is the State bird of Louisiana ?"

Yessir.

"Well, knowing all that, why did you shoot the pelican ?"

"Your honor, my family was hungry.  I had hunted all day and not seen nuttin.  So I shot de pelican"

"Well son, that is probably the only thing you could have said that would allow me to let you go free. However, please do not shoot any more pelicans"

Yessir.

"You are free to go"

Thibodeaux turned and walked towards the door.  When he got to the door the judge asked "By the way Mr. Thibodeaux, what did that pelicean taste like".

"Thibodeaux turned, grinned at the judge and said

"Well your honor, it was kind of a cross between a bald eagle and a whooping crane".  

he heeeeeeeeeeeeee

Ya'll enjoy the weekend.

Go Texans !

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 15:55:02 (ZULU)

http://www.schmidt-bender.de/frames/neuprodukte2_en.asp

http://www.schmidt-bender.de/frames/neuprodukte2_en.asp

http://www.schmidt-bender.de/frames/scharf.htm

Mark D

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 16:54:01 (ZULU)

Those conclusions were reached after grave and extensive consultations with Baby Huey and Francis the talking mule.

Couldn't resist.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 17:23:48 (ZULU)

 HA! Whooping Crane - seen on of them AA'd from the air in SoDak back in the 70's. Poor thing made the mistake of flying over a berm full of hungry farmers while leaving a game preserve.

Any decent single stage press, and Redding Comp dies will get you by, measures are like "sniper scopes".

I like Reddings 3-BR measure but used an ancient RCBS for 25 + years with good results.

Haven't had any time to shoot between work, more quality family time since the wreck, and getting my new car settled in since I picked it up last week.

A Galaxy Silver '02 Monte Carlo LS (w/ sport package).

It was a Feng Shu thing to match Mrs. peteR's Galaxy Silver Chevy van, thought about "Varget1" for the tag Comments????? hee-hee

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 17:28:01 (ZULU)

I'd like to do a book about Wiley too, as I probably told you, Least I can do for him!  He'll win in the end though! Cause I won't be and he will!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 17:49:39 (ZULU)

My posts will be sporadic over the next 5-6 weeks and I will be at the Academy. Will probably post every 2-3 days. God, I'll miss the banter and comraderie of the daily readings...

On 175's in the M1A/M14. Old match shooters have told me that you can use up to 190's, but no heavier. Recoil impulse is more important and is dependent on the load/powder chosen. IMR 4895/Varget/4064 are all in the perfect burning range. Me? I'm sticking with 175's in my bolt guns and 168's in the gas guns...

Will be with 25 crazy officers the next six weeks. Probably the most asked question will be: "It comes in PINTS?"

More later, as time permits...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 18:15:58 (ZULU)

Dave and others, on directions for my slings.  I no damm good at written directions. My webmaster is very good at making on line how to instructions.  Look at Tacticalintervention.com  under on line manual. Hell even I could follow those. He is updating and some photos my be old or not available right now. He does damm fine work and anyone buildinga  website should use this guy. You can contact him through a link on my site.

Peter, lets see you are in with SxB.  You get them for what we pay for a Leupold.  They are close if anything goes wrong.  What choice do you have God has spoken.  You need SxB's only!.  Damm fine scopes.  I still want my US Optics with a Second Gen Mildot reticle.  Rick I spewed all over the key board at the he did not invent it thing.  

Undude/Mike

Mike MIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 18:26:12 (ZULU)

Celebrated my first anniversary of the "grand opening" on 10 AUG and in about another week or two it will be a year since I had a Lucky Strike (I would still kill for one)!!!  No side effects except for discovering that I had asthma.  I've always been short-winded(except when runnin' my mouth) so it's not too bad.  I can still squeeze a trigger as well as the average old fart of sixty-five.

Saaaavage shooters,

I finally got fed up with that plastic POS stock on my 10FP Tactical .223 and ordered a stock from Stockade.  Will try it without and with bedding and write a review on it.  Kevin, I guess he's the boss, is very easy to work with and very helpful.  Should have the stock by the end of the week.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 18:26:15 (ZULU)

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_652107.html?menu=

--

Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon have voiced their opposition to US plans for a war on Iraq.

They spoke at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe about their roles in a play about the September 11 attacks.

Sarandon said that she didn't think a military expansion of violence was the solution.

She said: "First you have to ask the right questions and we haven't formed the right questions on what's going on in the world right now.

"No, I don't think I would want to go to war against Iraq."

The actress said one of the positive results of the September 11 attacks was that it gave America something in common with other countries who have fallen prey to terrorism.

"Afterwards, I said to my kids: 'We've joined the rest of the world now'," she said.

"You're so lucky in Ireland, England and Spain. Everyone there already knows what it's like to have inexplicable terrorist violence."

--

??????????????????

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 20:10:33 (ZULU)

Mike in London, my ideal scope would have German or Austrian enhanced crystal (ED or fluorite) glass, 42 mm but no bigger than 50mm objective, 1/2 minute elevation clicks a la the Leupold M3LR for 100 to 1100 yards in one turn (no cap over the turret like the M3), have a mil-dot or Premier Gen II reticle, a 30mm body tube, and be a 3.5 or 4 to 16 zoom.  Parallax adjustment on the side a la Leupold Mark 4s.  Waterproof.  Badger rings with a SIMRAD bracket.  Not weigh as much as a Night Force.

Just tore the rim off a Lake City 98 7.62 M118LR case in my Dillon 550B (not enough lube in an RCBS Small Base sizing die).  Took out the case with a Redding stuck case remover, but bent the die's decapping rod.  1-800 RCBS Customer Service first thing in the morning.

Mark in Texas, I think 44 grains of Varget will be a good loading for 165, 168, 175, and 178 grain bullets for .308 general purpose use (targets from 500-900 yards out of a 24 to 26-inch barrel).  Lots of excellent bullets in that range (Sierra Game Kings, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Match Kings, and A-MAXs).

45 grains of Varget in an M14 with a moly-ed Match King is maximum (cases will stick and the rifle will not reliably function as an autoloader with raw bullets).  I'd recommend no more than 44.5 grains, and preferably Pete's 44 grain as max if using in both bolts and autos.

I will no longer shoot the M14 at 1,000 with iron sights due to my older eyes, so no longer need maximum charge Varget loads.  44 does well in my bolt guns (a 24-inch Krieger barrel, a 24-inch Winchester M70 barrel, and a 26-inch 700VS factory barrel).  45 grains causes a sticky bolt lift on the Krieger-barreled 700.

Pete, glad to hear you're coming back to fighting trim.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 21:27:29 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 21:48:33 (ZULU)

I was shooting at 400yds and all my groups were 5 inches to the right and 2 1/2 inches low. I was shooting a Rem700P-308, MK4 M3,Badgers, my usual home rolls. Groups were about MOA,temp 88 degrees, no wind, minimal mirage,light was about 7 O'clock angle. I was able to see the entire circle in the scope,checked for cant,adjusted for paralax, made sure there was no windage adjustment on the scope. I shot 20 times and all were in a 5 inch group just low right. Went to the 100yd line and zero was spot on. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:06:30 (ZULU)

Thanks for the links.  I see now why I didn't find them on the US webpage.  I'm not too fond of the battery housing/illuminated reticle being an extra turret, but if it works who cares.

PeteL,

You see that mang???  Can you get your hands on these yet?  Why don't you have one?  I can see that performance bonus mounted atop another set of 34mm rings ;)))

Has any of youse Hawgs had to use Nightforce's repair service yet?  Just want to get a feel for what I'm in store for. If it's nasty, please hit my offline.  Not looking for a shitstorm or to hurt a companies image un-necessarily.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:07:51 (ZULU)

How did your 300 and 200 yard groups look? The 2" low isn't a problem because it is probably just a velocity difference between your rifle/load and the dial but the 5" to the right sounds like your reticle wasn't perfectly vertical when the scope was mounted. Check the other ranges if you haven't and see if the groups start to slowly move to the right as you move your elevation up. If so you might have to remount the scope and make sure the reticle is vertical. This can be done by hanging a plum line out and checking the reticle against it with the rifle perfectly vertical. You can test that by putting a level on the mount.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:29:08 (ZULU)

  Remember, everyone has the right to be stupid. Even celebrities. Maybe I should send Susan Saranwrap some kudzu and fire ants for her yard, too. I wouldn't want her to feel "unlucky" or anything. We have enough for her and Saddam.

yote;

  That was a great post.

Doc;

  Please keep us informed on the Savage stock. That's my next step.

Mini-14s;

  I wouldn't consider putting a new barrel, trigger, etc. on a Mini.

I have one from the early '80s, has the Ruger wood folding stock, Ruger 30 round mags, and all the "assault" stuff from back then.

  It is a fun gun, but not a serious gun. It has never failed, has been rugged, and pretty accurate at under 150 yards. It will shoot 1.5 inch group with 55 gr Sierra BlitzKings with iron sights at 150 yards. Noy very predictable out farther though. Hell on armadilloes!

  If you want a tack driver, get a good bolt gun. If you just have to have a gas gun with good accuracy, you should go the AR route. Either way you'll spend less money than you would on modifying the Mini to do the same thing and be better off.

        LATER   Y"ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:39:01 (ZULU)

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:51:35 (ZULU)

Lock, Stock, & Barrel is the only outfit that I'm aware of, other than the manufacturer, who is handling Stockade stocks.  Their address is:

http://www.lockstock.com

Not too much in the way of photos on their web site; but quite a bit of tech info.  They also handle Bell & Carlson who is also making a Savage 10 stock.  The Stockade has an aluminum internal skeleton while the B&C doesn't.

Doc  

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:55:26 (ZULU)

Last time I did any serious loading for a 308 gas gun was when I had an HK91. A very disappointing rifle in the accuracy dept.... in my experience. But then again there were some things back then that I didn't know now ;)) Best powder at the time was IMR 4064. I also used the same powder but a 150 gr. Sierra in a Rem. 600 Mohawk. Nice accurate little rifle.

Currently, my best load for my 700P/AI is 43.5 Varget/175 SMK/Win brass/Federal 210M. Accuracy holding up extremely well @ 900 yd +. The M1A for LR work is new to me and am wondering if Varget is still the best powder. If not, then I would think that 4064 or 4895 would suffice. Beyond that I'm in new territory.

yote bait,

Damn good writing. I can remember lots of times being on the Canadian River, Wolf Creek, or on the Salt Fork of the Red, listening to just what you're talking about....along about sunset. Never fails. Only a Plainsman can understand.

Mark W

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 23:09:19 (ZULU)

Moe - Yes, in my experence, if you load it up like the M1118LRs or higher.  Ihave two guys now that have had trigger failure, read that broken sears and sear sear pins.  I believe it is due to the hammer coming back and really whacking that light in the butt sear.  Remember the weapon was designed to handle military ammo at about 150 to 155 grains.  The limit I would go to would be 170 grains and then the 168 should not be pushed to much past 2700.  The guns had less then 1000 rounds on them at failure.  One had about 400 to 500 if I remember correctly.  that was last year so my memory is fading some.  Just my observations and I may have observed some real crap workmanship.  But a gas gun will never hold hte loads that the bolt gun will.  I know that will get some dander up.  :-)

Brian - Can yo spell Promethius?  Only problem is the expense.  I'll let you look it up and gag.  HE HE HA HA HO HO.  :-)

Mike - Glad I'm no tht eonly one spewing all over the keyboard.  The S&B is a very good scope we have several coming our way for demoing.  Would like to see the Gen II in them as well.  Had a guy ask me why we bother with dots since the lasers are so good.  I told him that dots don't have batteries.  He looked at me like a hog looking at a wrist watch.  Hmmmm.  Some will never get the techno stuff needs backup.

DOC!!! - Congrates man, I had my last on the night of 23 Nov 1999.  It gets better but it does not go away.  I can go for days without thinkig about it and then I will get one of those millisecond NOW DAM IT NOW, cravings and then it is gone again.  Hang in there.  I know you smoked as much as I did as a minimum but hell, I smoked form mid fifties to 1999 and the last 10 years was over three packs a day.  When I couldn't smoke, I had a chew in my mouth so take it from there as to how hooked I was.

Once again I am amazed at the ability of the anointed of Hollywood, who do live in fantasy world, to not realize nor care that the US has been under numerous terrorist attacks prior to Sep 11.  We are only just now getting around the Hollywood annointed to actually do something about it.

I hope she, Tom Cruise, Baldwin and wife, etc find a very happy home in other parts of the world.  I can recoemmend a few,  Saudi would love to get the lovely ladies set up as special people, unable to move about the country unless accompanied by a male member of the family.  They wouldn't have to worry about renewing any paperwork as they aare not allowed to have paperwork, thus requiring them to travel with a male member fo the family.  How about Pakastan where they could be raped by decree fo the elders for something that a male member of hte family did.  Oh hellnever mind.  They are not worth it.

TonyM - I would wait a day and try again.  You had a 1/2