Sniper Country Duty Roster
August 2002

Peter L...

I have one of those 13" - 25" Harris Bipods... been in my basement for 7 years :((

For those of you that know the bum that LOVES M25's... he made a giant step forward today... and the opposition made a MAJOR BIG loss :)))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 00:57:15 (ZULU)


    Any idea when you are going to have the article on the .338 done?  I'm stoked to read it.  I put money down on the RUM and will give it a try.  If I dont like it I will put it in the safe and buy the Lapua :).  

Scott Chapman <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:13:01 (ZULU)

Lito'darn, now ya tell me, ive been using the shorter , non swivel one for years, what length will it be,, maybe 9"to 13"? its been ok, but its a fart about leveling up in a hurry and i usualy end up digging a leg into the ground a bit, and i find i always use the thing extended and then it is to short to get over the damn heather and grass in Scotland, but i ain't sure that the 13 " - 25"is exactly what i need, i guess i can shorten the legs if its to long. Wish i had known you had one, I meant to order one from Brownells and forgot, the sods are expensive here, even at trade price, and i need the sod by saturday, How much you want for the basement relegated one??


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:25:05 (ZULU)

Lito;' thanks for the good news!

Peter; I shot a few coyotes with that round. If that pig didn't drop it would have surprised me. Elk or Buffalo might be different.

Scott; stay back from the scope........way back.

Brogers < >
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:28:42 (ZULU)

Hey Guys,

Anybody shot any of the Hornady 178gr AMAX boolits?  Any good?

Don K.

Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 01:32:43 (ZULU)

Bill, i dunno, them BT's are pretty frangible, the bullet didn't exit and it didn't hit any major bone, just a rib on the way in and it made it through the opposite ribs but got stopped either under the shoulder or just under the skin, what if it had hit the shoulder on the way in, how far would it have got? I like an exit wound and a broken shoulder on any game weighing more than 50lbs, and i like the same on these Roe deer, and they weigh about 30 - 40 lbs. the BT's are perfect for them, as are the hornady interlocks (308) some say they cause too much meat dammage on the smaller deer, but that suits me fine, I like to go to a bullet that doesn't open up quite as quickly if the game is a little bigger.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 02:25:36 (ZULU)

Sierra Echo.......

                  Great news. Hope you get back here soon!


           Like 'yote bait says. Thanks.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 03:29:31 (ZULU)

Nightforce Scopes

I've heard lots about the Nightforce scopes so when I was at the fun store the other day I checked one out.  The optics seemed to be really clear and the lit reticle was cool.  I did notice that they are built in Japan, marked right on the side.  I also know that Springfields scopes are made by a company in Japan.  Are these scopes made by the same people?  If the Nightforce's reticle was lit green I be really suspicious.  Anyone know for sure?

Scott Chapman <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:53:52 (ZULU)

Right Guys,, Its off to Bonnie Scotland in 2 days, be away form the computer for about 14 days, Time for some real hunting.

Jon see you there.

Marco, Pick you up.

JR, you coming too?

regards. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 04:59:29 (ZULU)

Sierra Echo,

Well ole buddy, it's been a long test and trial. Congratulations and welcome back to the assembly of LR gun sluts. Seems that Lito's the first to let the cat out of the bag ;))) Let's all lift a glass, Lads, for the returning of a brother, to the 'band of brothers'.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 05:25:27 (ZULU)

Allen, on the top of the barrel it's stamped, " CMP 5.56 NATO 1/7"..

Pete and Marco. You guys get your Mouflon the hard way. I walk out and just feed mine every morning. It's much easier. I had one that would follow me into the house if I weren't carefull. But the current ones I can not even pet.. Theys purty animals...

Dirty Steve, out..

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 06:38:11 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve........

             Following are Colt AR-15 barrel codes:

 C or SAK = manufacturer of barrel

 MP       = Magnetic Particle inspection (similar to Magnaflux)

 C        = chrome chamber

 B        = chrome bore


 CB       = chrome chamber and bore


 xxx      =  chambering and rate of twist (5.56 NATO 1/7)


  or      =  may be stamped instead of C for chrome chamber



 CHROME BORE may be stamped instead of above C,B,CB,RUC,RNC

So it looks like your Colt does not have a chrome bore. Another way for you to tell is with a clean bore the chrome bore will look a bit 'frosty' as opposed to the plain barrel which should look bright and shiny. Remember that this is industrial hard chrome that we're talking about, so it won't shine like decorative chrome plating. This, and the rumor that all Colt AR's have chrome bores is what fools a lot of people.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 13:23:48 (ZULU)

On 338 Ultra versus Lapua.  I shoot my Ultra more because its cheaper and very close to the same thing.  I will have the article done in a few weeks.  I am up to you know what in planning for a big trip.  Cant say more right now on that.  You could make a single shot Ultra with long throat and get everything the Lapua has but the darn mag length is what kills you in stock form.  Shorter fatter case(Lapua)has advantage in this case when you run through the mag.

On Springfield versus Nightforce scopes being made in the same country.  Well lets say yes and compare the Ford Pinto (Springfield) to the Suburban (NXS).  Do I need to say more? LOL  NXS is a very good scope.


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 14:10:06 (ZULU)

Just checking in..

 Completed a whirl-wind 18 state tour of the U.S. and only got to stop and visit George Gardner.  Ordered a rifle in the "Gumby" series in .243 with H-S Prec detachable mag, 24" Rock barrel, HTG on a Rem 722 action.

 Missed visiting Cat Shooter due to a late start and also missed Bruce Robinson while in El Paso/Las Cruces due to wife and daughter-in-law overrides.


 Andy's Dad:  good to hear you're well and back in the U.S.

 UnDude:  Saw a nice Windrunner while at George's place in KC.



Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Somewhere, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 14:16:49 (ZULU)

I received my first e-mail today from an African scam artist.  I'm somebody now!!!

Old Ironsights <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 15:12:16 (ZULU)


C MP 1:7 bbls are all chrome bore and chamber

  - the C is for Colt

B (Bushmaster) MP and D (Diemaco) MP bbls are also all chromed.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 15:25:43 (ZULU)

Allen and Kevin, Ok just who's right? Any input from you closet mouse gunners out there. It shoots well I was just wondering cause I may try the Final Finish on it as well if the Winne works out well. Going to try to use it this week end.

Sierra Echo, hope to hear from you soon...

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 16:32:02 (ZULU)

Ref: Cold Bore Shots

Today was my first day of "driving" so I went to the range.  I fired five cold (clean) bore shots onto the same target.  I don't know what has happened but I'm good to go.  All five holes are within 1/2 inch of the point of aim.  I'm happy.  My doctor said that one of the heart drugs they've got me taking is considered "Performance Enhancing" in the shooting sports.  Maybe it is because I've never been more centered and "in the bubble" as I was today.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 17:13:52 (ZULU)

Kevin... Performance enhancing?  Viagra is not for that "gun"....

Jim Mitchell <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 18:12:43 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad, Performance enhancement, huh? Keep chanting, "This is my rilfe, This is my Gun...."

Glad to see your getting out and going to important places. Keep up the good work..

Allen and Kevin of GWN. It was my impression that CMP ment Cryo treated Chrome lined (Metal Plated).. Some one ring in here for a tie breaker...

Dirty Steve, Out

Dirty Steve <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 18:36:44 (ZULU)

T-norman (an old drug spelled different but pronounced that way (atenenol)(spelling again)  or Kerlone is an inhibitor. It slows your pulse (mainly by reducing adreneline)  and gives your eyeball less of a push when your heart beats your blood pressure should be lower. It helps tremendously in long range shooting to lower the pulse jump.

Normally given to allow your heart to fill with blood better between beats or so I was told. Anything that will lower blood pressure has a tendency to tighten groups.

bill rogers <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 18:43:57 (ZULU)



Calcium Channel Blockers

ACE inhibitors

ACE II inhibitors..

all act to reduce blood pressure...

Tenormin is a beta blocker.

With tongue in cheek, one could argue that Viagra also 'displaces" blood from the common circulation and thus provides a potential for lower BP...

JR - I will call John Holliger, thanks.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 19:30:07 (ZULU)

hi all

does anyone know where i could purchase a tasco ss 10x42m scope please as swfa have sold out of them for the forseeable future,any help would be very much appreciated.



guy richards <>
u.k. - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 19:42:54 (ZULU)

Old Ironsights ;

Back to  the buffalo---some drugs used to tranqualize large ruminants will cause hyperthermia.  It doesn't take much of these drugs to drive a bison that is already hot and bothered up to 106 to even 109 F(when they get this hot they get REALLY stupid).  The local Indian tribes up here just herd their runaways with a trusty gun-its all shot placement.

Adam Wiechmann <>
south dakota, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 19:44:38 (ZULU)

Jim; don't forget the other medicine.  I heard this on TV so I know it's true.  

CATS! lower your blood pressure. Except for one Guy in the North East somewhere who has the reverse reaction. I hear he sees a cat and his groups go to pot immediately. When you have the reverse reaction the only relief is to get a CATSCRAM!

Honest Guys, I don't make this stuff up! They really do use Visine in Prairie Dogs eyes! They move them to Miami beach too!

Adam are you saying you really can't skate in a buffalo herd!

bill rogers <>
- Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 20:12:15 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve.......

                  I supplied the info - do with it as you wish :-)



Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 22:08:04 (ZULU)

Hooah....after 2 months and 11 days FINALLY got my 500 rounds of .308 Lapua brass!!!!!!

Time to make the boolits!!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 23:59:52 (ZULU)

Alan this is not a flame, but issue bbls are marked that way.

and they are chrome throughout.

My M4A1 (RO921) bbl is marked C MP 1:7

My C7A1 bbl is marked D MP 1:7

both of those I know are chromed through out.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:01:44 (ZULU)


I just moved back East here and there are all these wonderful schools within real driving distance.  Low and behold, I find a 500 yard range in Staunton, just an hour south.  Where do I start?

I was thinking I needed to visit Storm Mountain next year for the basic class (I saw the schedule and this year just isn't going to happen).  I haven't read any complaints about the training and West By Gawd is a hell of a lot closer now.  Anything changed there at all?  

Anyone with other suggestions?  I see Gooch is up and running now and I am tempted.  Like I said, I ned a basic LR/Sniper class and am looking for info/experience.  I read the rebiews/articles.  I am just looking for anything more.



Steve Burris <>
occupied, old dominion, usa - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:08:46 (ZULU)

Guy Richards...

Tabasco has been out of business for about 3 or so months, so SWFA ain't getting any more, EVER.

One of the Rostafarians said that actually, Tabasco has been out of business for years, but just didn't know it until a few months ago.  I think there's a fair amount of truth in that statement.

You might look for one on eBay, or on the Emporium, but why??

Get a real scope.


'yote Bate...

Dang... we have Prairie Dogs taking strawberry scented bubble baths while we draw a bead on them, and bullalos on drugs...

...mang, P.E.T.A. isn't going to love us anymore.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:39:15 (ZULU)

Woodchuck training drill......

Locate chuck

Range chuck

Dial dope as required

Go into hold mode and track  until chuck sits up

When chuck sits up, break shot within 2-3 seconds{orless}

This is similar to the sniper/observer shot at the ASC but utilizes a live target with unpredictable exposure time..

Chucks in pastures and hay meadows are ideal for this drill..Those on rocks, logs, brace posts, etc., are to be taken as the shots present themselves..

Shot a hay meadow this eve. and was 7 for 10 on this drill...Neck is sore from laying in hold mode waiting, but it surely was a nice way to spend a summer evening..

Markwell <>
Bustin' chucks in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:40:26 (ZULU)

Sinister et. al.

a corection to my orignial post of the CF looking for the SR-25/AR-10.  It appears now that the new MRS (marksman rifle system) is going to be a 5.56mm afair a la SPR using match (77 or 100gr ammo)

The MRSWS (med Rge) will be a .338LM (I guess the .408 did not get the nod)

 And the .50BMG LRSWS (long range).  The EDM ARM Windrunner look like a fav there.  

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 00:54:01 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, ALAN -

I'll second Kevin OTGWN's opinion on the Colt barrels.

CMP = Colt Magnetic Particle Tested.

All Colt 1/7 twist barrels, and their chambers, are chrome plated.  I've got three Colt guns with 1/7 barrels and all are chromed in the chamber and bore.  

Colt sometimes marks their barrels as CHROME or CHROME PLATED but not usually.  

I don't think the Final Finish product would do much for a chromed bore.  I believe it's meant more for a chrome moly match type barrel.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 01:26:24 (ZULU)

Moe, It was just a thought the literature that comes with the kit or on the web site I forget which stated it can make the bore more uniform if used in chrome lined barrels. Just thinking about it. I really like chrome lined barrels. They last longer and well they last longer. If it shoots well why not try to maximize the potential? And mine shoots well...

Mark W. I don't suppose you need help with them chucks? I dont eat them any more but theys fun to shoot... Once I went to shoot some on a friend of my Dads place. I made a cut out of one made out of thin wood sheet. Panneling I believe it was. And painted it to look like a chuck. My borther shot it once with a 22 Mag. and we left it sitting on te corner of his garden. He wasn't home by the time we finnished shooting. He spotted it in short order and cominced to shooting it. He was getting mad and started walking toward it shooting more since it wasn;t dying or running off. Well he finally got close enough to see what was going on.. He called Dad and said it was a dang nice likeness so much so he shot it 5 times...

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 04:02:38 (ZULU)

I have been trying to track down a Winchester 70 Stealth in .308 and all leads have turned up cold....   If anyone knows where one is "hiding" I would appreciate it any help =)  Hoping someone has one "hiding" in their closet and is looking to make a little profit....  

Should I hold out for a Stealth or maybe start looking at the PSS ?

Thanks  Tim  

Tim Duncan <>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:01:15 (ZULU)

Winchester Stealth:

if youse havin' trouble finding a Stealth, why not just build one?  All youse gotta do then is find a model 70 of length action needed, throw the stock and barrel aside, order an HS stock, and rebarrel the bugger.  Oh yeah, that's really expensive, ha!    


JR <>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:21:31 (ZULU)

Kevin GWN.......

                No offense taken.

Dirty Steve, Kevin,Moe,etc......

                First, my info supplied was in relation to the Colt Match Target HBAR series with the ser. no. prefix MT, as Dirty Steve originally posted regarding his rifle. When I first gathered this info it was because I own four Colt MT's and was not interested in clouding the issue with info for the R,AR,LE,CR,SP,or numerical prefix (military) guns.

                Be that as it may, I did a little more investigation into this issue this evening. What I came up with is pretty interesting:

           1st. "C" identifies Colt manufacture barrel. The only relation to chrome is that the words happen to share the first letter in their spelling.

            "MP" identifies Magnetic Particle inspection, i.e. checks made to reveal flaws in the barrel, after manufacture but before final installation on the rifle. Also has nothing to do with chrome.

            "C","B", or "CB" next in the sequence denotes chrome chamber and/or bore. If it doesn't appear here it is NOT chrome unless

            "Chrome Bore","RUC",or"RNC" are stamped on the barrel. Usually above the alpha/numeric designation denoting mfg., insp., chambering, twist rate, and sometimes configuration (HBAR).

Please reference for verification, but please read the chart carefully, it can be a little tricky to interpret, but it does confirm the info that I hand copied from the literature brought home by a local PD 'smith who was sent to Colt Armorers School a couple of years ago. I also visited my friends gunshop and looked up the same info in a book that he sells called "The M16/AR15 Rifle" by Joe Poyer (p.68). Finally, I double checked the four Colt MT's and the Colt SP-1 Carbine (pre-ban) in my collection and they all fit this criteria! Again, I repeat, if you're inspecting your rifles bore and it's mirror shiny when clean, it probably isn't chrome. Remember, I originally researched and posted this for the Colt Match Target with the Colt or Saco made barrels, and I'm not doing this for an ego trip. I only wanted to correct what I believe to be a commonly held misconception. If by any chance I am wrong I owe you guys a big apology, but I'm using easily verified sources and not basing this on anecdotal incidents only. Since all Bushy's (except the NM) are chrome lined, and I never intended to get into them in the first place, I don't really care what their barrels have stamped on them!

Thank's for bearing with me,  ALAN


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:32:38 (ZULU)


I saw this information on

This lady seems to be selling Winchester rifles at a good discount relative to the gun shops around me.  She advertised a Win. Stealth .308 recently for $590.00.  

Elizabeth A Mogavero


Phone: (631) 862-0484

You can go to and see her ads or call her for a specific item.

Never dealt with her or anything.  Just came accross some of her ads and thought you might want to check it out.  Posting it because some of you others may be interested too.


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:33:59 (ZULU)

Can I just be frank, haha..  If the literature on this kit does what you say Dirty Steve, you go thru all the trouble of getting a longer lasting chrome lined barrel to shoot by using some junk to make the 'bore more uniform'?  What do you think you are doing to make the bore more uniform?  You have to remove bore material to make the bore more uniform.  Hence, you are removing the chrome plating. Wonder what's under that chrome, haha.  Probably what you should have started with in the first place.  :P

Personally, I think chrome bores have their place, but that's in belt fed machine guns where it wouldn't matter if they were accurate or not.  There is THE classic case where longer life exceeds the need for accuracy.  That, Jim, is practical.  There is no practical accuracy when it comes to shooting one boolit at a time, either it is accurate or it is not.  Either it is going to put it where ya point it, or it's not.  Don't sell yourself short on this 'practical accuracy' voodoo, is all I'm trying to say.

Off to my 'barenaked ladies'(non lined barrels, ha!), later aye!


JR <>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 05:34:30 (ZULU)

Jim and Kevin...

Better be careful taking Viagra and shooting... we'll jut call you "Tripod".  8)


Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 06:20:36 (ZULU)


I'm not sure if you are the one that emailed me on the Stealth but you may want to try one of the other Sportsmans Warhouse stores.  The usually stock them.

Scott Chapman <>
- Friday, August 2, 2002, at 06:31:19 (ZULU)

JR, The kit is supposed to remove less than .0003" of metal. That should leave the chrome in the barrel. This gun is for Service Rifle matches and I'm a cheap bastard. I will shoot it till the accuracy goes then put on a new match tube. It shoots well now but if I can improve it, hey thats great.. Also I just like playing with stuff. Say it ruins the accuracy. Gee then I HAVE TO GET A NEW BARREL. How could my wife say no?

Tim, Just go to your favorite gun shop and have them order a Stealth for you. Thats what I had to do. The shop I use carrys only Remmies and Savages in bolt action. A week later I had it in my hands.

Dirty Steve, out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 07:18:32 (ZULU)

Kevin (of the Great White North)..


">Sinister et. al.

A correction to my orignial post of the CF looking for the SR-25/AR-10.  It appears now that the new MRS (marksman rifle system) is going to be a 5.56mm afair a la SPR using match (77 or 100gr ammo)

The MRSWS (med Rge) will be a .338LM (I guess the .408 did not get the nod)

 And the .50BMG LRSWS (long range).  The EDM ARM Windrunner look like a fav there. "<


I made a similar comment on another site, about the .408.   My thoughts are that if it hasn't caught on by now (with all the promoting that are doing), that it isn't going to make the cut... I have been getting e-mails from the company's principals for about 3 or 4 weeks (they are really pissed)... but I think there are a lot reasons that the .408 isn't getting accepted, and you guys did right with going with the .338 Lap, and the 50BMG.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 07:50:17 (ZULU)

Guy Richards

Bushnell bought Trashco.  Who knows what will happen with the ss.  Buy a loopy.

Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 11:35:43 (ZULU)


I have been out for a couple of weeks and am behind.  I have received e-mails from several of you and I just have not had the opportunity to respond.  I am getting caught up and will respond as quickly as possible.  Please bear with me.  I hope all is well with everyone.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 13:01:45 (ZULU)

Hey all.  I'm new here and trying to stay in the shadows & learn as much as I can.  This is a great site and there seems to be a lot of very knowledgable people here.

If I may offer a response to Tim's question below regarding the Stealth:

A buddy of mine just ordered one and he was told it would arrive in  about 3 months.  Don't know if you want to wait that long.  A dealer with good connections may be able to get one quicker.

Regarding the PSS Tim referenced: I have a VS in .308(which is essentially the same thing with a different stock) that has been reliable and will shoot 3/4MOA (if I do my part)and is bone stock except for adjusting the trigger to 3lbs.  Rifle choice, of course, is highly subjective and I'm sure there are plenty of people that would tell you to wait for the Stealth.  I haven't personally owned one, so I can't say if it's better than the PSS or not.

OK now a question:

I'm upgrading scopes and want a Leupold M3 type.  Since this is a hobby and lives don't depend on my abilities, is it worth it for me to go with the Mark4 M3, or would the vari-xIII M3 serve just as well to defend myself against groundhogs at Long ranges and possibly try some tactical matches in the future?  



John Bechtell <>
Gettysburg, PA, USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 15:11:55 (ZULU)

Anybody know where the best deal for 1" Tactical Rings that fit a picatinny rail is?  I would rather not have 30mm rings and have to deal with inserts.  Midway USA has Leupold Mark 4's in 1" for $115.  Is there something a little cheaper out there?

Don K.

Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 17:13:36 (ZULU)

Catman, my loveable old buddy. We agree I would stick with 338 Lapua for now.  Give it a few years to work out the bugs of the 408 before we put lives on the line with it.  I hear the computor things is fantastic though.  Have not worked with a 408 yet.

On MK4 M3 versus M3 Longrange.  If you get the second gen mildot from Premiere version I believe the M3 Longrange will serve you well and cost far less than a new MK4 M3.  You watch the emporium and you will find a MK4 M3 for 800.00 so keep that in mind.


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 17:35:40 (ZULU)

Colt Chrome Country -

From the Maryland AR15 site:

"Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: All current (COLT) manufacture 5.56 rifles have chromed chambers, only M4 & A2 barrels have chrome bores (older barrels do have both chrome lined bores & chambers)"

My Colts are either M4 or A2 barreled, chrome bores and chambers.  

Current Colt Match barrels will have a chromed chamber only.

Half the fun of owning a Colt is trying to determine exactly what you got!


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Friday, August 2, 2002, at 21:50:27 (ZULU)

Thanks for all the responses about the Stealth.  I am going to call the other Sportsman Warehouses and if that doesnt flush one out of the brush then I will order one locally and cross my fingers =)

I too have been thinking about going with the Leupold M3 LR...  thanks for the info on that subjet as well.  

The listing for the Stealth on is old as hell and the woman will not take down the ad.  Some peoples children....

Thanks again,  USMC_LB

Tim Duncan <>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 00:13:18 (ZULU)

Thanks for all the responses about the Stealth.  I am going to call the other Sportsman Warehouses and if that doesnt flush one out of the brush then I will order one locally and cross my fingers =)

I too have been thinking about going with the Leupold M3 LR...  thanks for the info on that subjet as well.  

The listing for the Stealth on is old as hell and the woman will not take down the ad.  Some peoples children....

Thanks again,  USMC_LB

Tim Duncan <>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 00:13:28 (ZULU)

Tim D.,

you should also look for Winchesters' HBV.  The same rifle but with a stainless steel Schneider barrel and a jeweled bolt.  Very nice and can normally be had for a reasonable price.

I had to call winchesters distribution center and get the names and numbers of distributors that received more than 4 or 5 of the last shipment.  I got the last one lest year.  It took them 9 months to put out another run, or 5 months more than they expected.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 00:40:35 (ZULU)

Hey FatDude...

The HBV isn't a Schneider... that barrel (if a Schneider) would be about $700 by itself... but it is a GOOD barrel... probably a Dougles AG or Wilson equivelent.

The Schneiders came on the First issue of the M70 Sharpshooters... but that was a $2,500 stick, out of the box!!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 01:23:27 (ZULU)


As usual,, I must have gotten some bad juju for someone who "knows".  One of the guys who owns a range here swears that Winchester said his 223 pipe was a Schneider, as they were asking for his rifle back due to a headspace issue which it didn't have.  He never sent it back.

I've seen two of the 308's, a 223 and a 22-250 up close and personal now,,, they are all outstanding rifles.  I can't think of any factory stick that is of the same quality for the money.  The 308's both shoot about .5 moa, and the 223 and 22-250 were even better.  For about $600, you just can't go wrong IMHO,, whatever tube it wears.

You ever get the 40X .22LR worked out, or is the Winchester 320 still beatin' it up ;))


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 01:33:45 (ZULU)

Alan, I missed the reference to the MT's - anyway it seems to be resolved :)

'lito, and Mike

I agree with your interpretation of the .408

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 03:23:26 (ZULU)

Kevin GWN.....

              Yeah, thank God:-)

All........... Anybody here have anything to say about the Gun Kote finishing process? Good, bad or indifferent? Can it be applied over prior finishes  such as Black Oxide or Parkerize? New business in town is offering this process, his work looks good from what examples I've seen, and I have a Black Oxide job that's just not cutting it!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 04:27:36 (ZULU)

Alan - I have had a Colt M203 redone with gun kote - it is perfect.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 04:31:49 (ZULU)

Moe, Thanks for clearing that up, I think? I shall go wave a dead rooster over the rifle call Colt with the serial number and probably get a response of yes it may or may not have a chrome barrel but may have a chrome chamer even if the barrel is not but definitely may not have either or both.. OK I got it... I guess it aint that big of a deal but gee the input was cool.. Thanks Allen, Kevin and Moe..

Oh on M3 LR's I have two and will be getting a third soon. I only have had them for less than a year. But really like them. I worried at first over the 1 moa clicks. But thin a bout it you will never be off more than 1/4 MOA since you cant stop beteewn clicks.. Thats an inch at 400.. Works for me.. If I thought this through correctly.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 05:18:33 (ZULU)


Will the M3LR fit standard Badger rings and 20 MOA base on a Stealth?

Or are they to short. Rock barrel. Will the bolt clear?


john <>
B'ton, IN, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 11:18:35 (ZULU)


The M3LR and the badgers work great on a  stealth.  Click on my name and look for the black rifle.  You can see what kind of clearance you'll have.  The Stealth barrel isn't quite as large as a #7 Rock, but it's as close as any factory stick gets.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 13:19:53 (ZULU)


For the 300WM, I switched from RL-22 to RL-25.  It tightened the SD and gave a hair more velocity.  The real difference other than the SD was the temperature sensitivity.  There isn't much.  Form a 'cold" day of 35 to a warm day at 85, the change wasn’t much.

Of course, now that I have a few thousands rounds of my favorite recipe loaded, Hodgdon went out and produced the “RETUMBO” powder. Considering that I love the Benchmark for 223 and Varget for 308, I will tryout RETUMBO for the 300WM.  RETUMBO should be a fantastic powder.

Hank <>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 16:01:08 (ZULU)

Canucks sound like they have a decent solution.  When everyone else in the unit has 5.56 why not equip your platoon level guys with a 5.56 sniper rifle?

Still not a big fan of the .338 Lapua magnum.  Training will be a bitch with it.  Hell if a guy shoots 500 rounds through it at a school it is getting near barrel replacement time already.  I still think .308 is a better battlefield solution.  We use it, brits use it. NATO uses it....I think its overkill for a 1000yd "medium" range gun...but thats just me.  Imagine if a guy has to shoot from some position other than a nice stable prone position with lots of shoulder behind the gun....ouch.  

Question...what is the hottest, SAFE, .308 load using a 190 grain projectile ya'll have used and what kind of accuracy did you get out of it.  I'm wanting to try some heavy loads in my gun.  Its got a 1:11 barrel.

Out here.

Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 16:12:49 (ZULU)


The theory (as I understand it) is the 5.56mm MRS can go out to 800m - the .338lm will be used out to 1200m, and the 50 out to 2000m (and longer)

The C3A1's are running out of parts - and instead of getting another 7.62mm system it was decided to go with a system that will give a standoff distance from normal small arms - somethign the 7.62mm just does not do.

Also suppressors are spec'd for all - so it will be a little easier on th shooter and observer

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 18:20:46 (ZULU)


I have run 190's in my .308 at 2605 with 42 grains of Varget, in Lapua cases... no presure signs... a nice load and very accurate... 10" twist bbl!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 18:58:20 (ZULU)

Need Scope Recomendations;

 I just bought a Savage Model 516 Striker .308 Win. I got a good deal on it at the gun show today. I've never fired a bolt action pistol before and need some advice on scopes for it.

 If this were a rifle, I would go Leupold. Would a regular Leupold pistol scope be good or should I consider an Aimpoint or similar scope? Ruggedness is a priority, of course.

 Anyone have any experience with this gun?

                 LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 19:09:27 (ZULU)

BMG Mike:  "The statistical accuracy of a 3 MOA shooter with a 2 MOA rifle is about 3.6 MOA, not 5.  The two factors are statistically independent and do not add linearly, but as the square root of the sum of squares."

Something sort of like that is right.  

Winnie HBV (Heavy Bitch, Very) barrels:  An article a few years ago in PS said that they are Wilsons.  Whatever they are, that rifle was a hell of a bargain for $550 or so.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 20:43:51 (ZULU)

Question on a handgun  (no, I'm not starting a thread)

I have a Sig P229 in 9mm, does any one know if the P228 mags fit it, I know that they are pretty much the identical pistol, but I wanna make sure before I buy the mags

Thanks Hogs

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 21:45:23 (ZULU)

OK Gas Gunners - M1A's that is not mouse guns - :-) starting load for 175 SMK's using Varget? Rock Jr. likes 44.9 but that's probably a bit stiff for the M1A. So where to start 43 and work up or 44 etc. HELP!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 21:45:44 (ZULU)


The .308 doesnt give a standoff distance to normal small arms fire???

I kinda think it does.  Remember we are talking distances that you can detect and see a human target.  Granted the .338 has a ballistic advantage over most current .308 match loads.  You guys used the 168 gr Norma load the last time I was up your way.  It dont zactly win the gunners choice award at 1000m but Im sure a 190 load or even the 175 gr m118 load would have been sufficient.  

I just see you guys being unhappy with the .338 over the long run.  Hope ya'll have a good supply of barrels and a good logistics system that can get them replaced BEFORE they start shooting out.  Its a bitch to be in country and have to lose a gun to be repaired.  Or what happens when the supply dudes cant get .338 ammo but that machine gunner has a shit load linked up?

Anyway, you guys have a good program and Im sure ya'll will make it work.  Gonna be fun shooting agaisnt the .338 at CFSAC though...damn!!


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:11:20 (ZULU)


My Jerry's Sport Center wholesale catalog shows 10 round P228/P229-9mm mags as the same.


Doc Holloway <>
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:19:02 (ZULU)

Thanks Doc,

I was pretty sure, but I was just checking. And on a lighter note, I'll be saddling up the TH-57 here in a few weeks, As Joe Mahon is fond of saying, ROTORS RULE!


What's the poop on the Designated Marksman jod that The Corps is working on. Not around the ground side any more, losing touch, just curious.

Later Hogs, dusting off the M1A because my USO scope id still not done

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:35:32 (ZULU)

WWWHhhhhooOOO !   I finally found a 70 Stealth thanks to Scott Chapman!  Everytime the trail would run cold, Scott would put me on another trail.  Thanks alot for your help, Scott.

What type of Badger rings would I want to get.  Do they make only one style for the Model 70 ?

I am looking at a Leupold 3.5-10 M3 LR for my choice in glass.

I already have a Harris bipod but plan on trying the shrink wrap mod for the springs.

Now for the stick itself...  

What recommedations would you suggest making to the rifle itself ?

Does the H-S stock need any extra tuning ?  

What is the average ideal poundage for trigger pull ?  

Can the Stealth trigger be adjusted by the owner ?

Does anyone have any experience with a Chandler rifle stock ?

I appreciate all the information and help you guys have passed my way in the past.   I am so glad I found this place!

Tim Duncan <>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 22:40:34 (ZULU)

Tim Duncan:  Check with Premier Reticles or George Gardner for Badger base and standard rings.  Premier also will have a Seekonk 65 inch lb T handle torque wrench for the ring nuts.  Get some hex head action screws from Brownell's so you can achieve proper torque. Center screw only lightly will have to trim the screws with a dremel.  They are too long.  Likely you'll have to trim the front base screws for the Badger rail, too, or buy some shorter ones from Brownell's, like 6-48/.200 long. See 'Lito's instructions for the Model 70 trigger adjustment on this site.  Go's fun.

Jerry <>
Halstad, MN, USA - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 23:15:51 (ZULU)

Thanks Jerry =)

I will start searching for Lito's instrutions for the Model 70 trigger adj. now!

Tim Duncan <>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 23:39:00 (ZULU)


   I'm glad you finally found the rifle, who had it?  I plan on buying the Stealth in .223 that is over at Sportmans in Loveland.

Scott Chapman <>
- Saturday, August 3, 2002, at 23:50:04 (ZULU)


I had a cat by that name.   (No, I didn't shoot it, it was an indoor cat!  And a Goddamn good one!  My first "Ex" stole it!)

>"Can the Stealth trigger be adjusted by the owner ?"<

Go here:

For the trigger adjustments.  They are so easy that if you can't do them, you shouldn't be trusted putting bullets in your gun ;))

As to your other questions...

>"What is the average ideal poundage for trigger pull ?  "<

Most guys like around 2.5 to 3.5 pounds... the trigger will do much less than that, but don't over do it, unless you are skilled enough to use a light trigger... stay within 3# to 3.5#

>"Does the H-S stock need any extra tuning ?"<

Just check that the barrel isn't touching the stock (run a match cover between the barrel and stock, it should not bind).

The stock already comes glass bedded... it's not the "best" bedding job in the world, but it's pretty damn good (considering what the "other" company gives you - NADA).

I have three of these guns, and they all shoot "Outstandingly" out of the box.

One of our illustrious Rascalious Rosterfairians won his states 1000yd match with one right out of the box, and it only had the trigger adjusted... of course he shoots pretty good too (but he is dog ugly!)

We have had only one guy complain about his Stealth, and the factory said it should have never been shipped, and offered his money back, or a brand new Stealth... so he was cool.

You can re-do the glass bedding if you want, with something like Brownell's "Steel-Bed"... but you should really adjust the trigger and shoot the sucka firstus!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 00:27:56 (ZULU)

If you are looking for badger bases and rings give George (of GA Precision) a call at 816-221-1844. He now has a big supply of Badger bases and rings. Thanks for running a big batch Marty! Those goverment contracts are mixed blessing aren't they?

Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 01:08:29 (ZULU)

I hate to get on here and bitch, but you guys gotta here this one.

Some of you might remember me posting a couple of times complaining about waiting well over 3 years for my TBA to show up and again that it finally did show up and I wanted to sell it due to lack of interest.   Well there were no takers so after a few months now I figured I would shoot it and see what it can do.   Aimed and pulled the trigger-"click".   Pulled the round out and the primer was untouched.   Hmmm.   I put it back in, pulled the trigger again and "click".   Pulled it out, primer again untouched.   Broken firing pin I thought.   Unscrew it and the firing pin is fine, but I notice that the 'tang' of the cocking piece seems to be rather long.   So long that it is still engaging the slots down to the last threads.

So I screw it back together and de-cock it.   Hmmm.   Nothing sticking out of the firing pin hole.

So, my only conclusion at this time is that somehow maybe a LONG action cocking piece was installed on my bolt.   But I thought they would be the same length, long or short.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, this means that my rifle was not test fired for SAFETY, FUNCTION, or ACCURACY.   Safety being the most important of all.

No wonder the barrel was incredibly clean.

Here is my list of F-ups by Mike:

1. Barrel ordered says Hart 1:12, 6 groove,

  What I got-Shilen 1:10, 8 groove

2. Thumbscrews for adj. cheekpiece bottom against stock before    tightening up cheekpiece.   I fixed this myself with countersunk cap screws.

3. Rifle came with worthless stamped magazine follower, didn't feed right.   Replaced with nice one from Chandler.

4. Rifle was supposed to have iron sight mounts ala M24.   Nothing there.   I wonder where that $45 went.

5. Cocking piece mentioned above.

6. 39 month wait.

Who was that guy with the PSS from hell?   Christ I have the TBA from hell and I haven't even fired it yet.

What a piece of poo Mike turned out to be.

This post is also meant to be a warning to others that are thinking of going the TBA route.  

Thanks for reading

Tim <>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 01:47:42 (ZULU)

Couple of quickies - :-)

.408 - Needs work and not impressed right now.  Will let it go at that.

.338 Lapua - Specialty weapon and care needs to be taken as to it becoming a standard firearm for sniping.  We shoot about 1400 rounds during our course and there are courses that shoot more then we do.  Really hard on barrels.  We will shoot 80 to 125 rounds in a day, really hard on the shooter.  The problem, as I see it, and I have been wrong in the past, is that everyone sees the very occasional really long range shot, over 800 meters, and equates that as the norm.  It is not.  Drive around the boonies and look at the very few places that you can see over 450 to 600 meters and be amazed.  Even the desert has limits as to mirage problems, masking terrain, gullies, etc.  Trust me, it sucks when you touch off a round and find out that an enemy partol was setting about 500 meters away in a gully and you missed them.  Now you just touched off a round at a target you compute at 1200 meters, you probably missed, and you are lining up your second shot with correctin when the hounds of hell desend on you with an attitude problem.  Yep, been there done that.  It does suck.  User the 7.62 as it was intended and I can guarantee you that you can smoke a machine gunner at 700 to 800 meters while he is still trying to walk fire onto you.  Oh well just my opinion, I would also look at the 338 RUM since it is cheaper all around and it does not seem to lose enough ballistically to justify the higher cost of the Lapua.  Me thinks that Lapua will start to come down in price due to competition.

Oh well have fun guys and hold hard!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 02:25:22 (ZULU)


I emailed Kent on my limited understandings of why were are going that route (to the .338LM).  Currently we limit shooter/observer pairs to 50rds/day on the .338 and .50 - as there have been worries about detached retinas due to concusion (I have absolutely no medical beyond standard first aid - so I'll leave that to the experts)

AAR - we have spec'd a can for both the .338LM and .50 guns

I think the MRS in 5.56mm (SPR) will surplant the C3 for most roles as it is spec'd to Anti-Pers for 800m - and leaves the .338 for the 800-1200 for AP and the HTI role.

Our book values call for C7A1 fire to 300m - C3A1 to 600m.  So "in theory" this SPR type gun will give snipers an extra 200 standoff (yeah right).

Anyway I better get lost and enjoy my longer weekend :)

PS Editted due to spelling

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 02:40:05 (ZULU)

New Stealth owner (Tim)......

                             Get a Williams steel trigger guard from Brownells to go with the new hex-head action screws. Your floorplate w/base as delivered is already steel. Just a little cheap insurance for that 65 action screw torque. And remember - always tighten front screw before rear (in stages) and just snug middle screw down until floorplate latches properly. Tapered Badger base, std. Badger rings good to go with scopes through 30mm tube, 40-something mm obj. diameter. Been there - done that - and it worked! Enjoy!!

Kevin (GWN), Gooch......

                          I think that Kevin has a point there about the possible use of the SPR up to maybe 800yds (keep your fingers crossed, operator). I only wonder if it wouldn't be wiser to employ the .300WM from wherever the SPR starts losing it, up through about 1200yds. and then go with the .50BMG out from there, bypassing the Lapua entirely? I regularly shoot my .300WM past 1,000 to 1,200yds. using the 190SMK,

without any recoil problems, and have thinking about going from its 1:10 H-S 10X (JR) barrel to a new Border (JR) barrel with maybe a 1:8 or 1:9 twist for the 220 or 240 SMK's when it's time has come. Logically, if the .308 can handle the 190SMK, why shouldn't the .300WM handle the 220SMK or more?


            How in the heck are you?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 06:16:55 (ZULU)


   Here's a 190gr. 308 load.

       43.0gr. VN-140

       Lapua Brass

       Win LR (white box) primer

       Chronoed 10 rounds, 21 fps es, avg vel 2624 from 24" 10" twist hart. Shoots sub 1/2 moa elevations at 500 yards, much better in wind. Holds 3/4 moa for 10 shots at 500 (equals fed match 168's at same distance and # of rounds).

Standard disclamers apply. Milage may vary.

Bill Byford

Bill Byford <>
S. East, IL, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 07:15:44 (ZULU)

You know you have no life when ...

too many fat pigs in the shacks:(

Alan - keep in mind this is done in a worst case scenario - i.e the 7.62mm C3A1 (w/ Unertl) this gets shot to 600m in bad.

If you will go to a .300 - my thoguhts are you may as well go to the .338 as I do not see a great decrease in bbl life over the increase in range.

Under good conditions the .338LM can easily go to 1600 so a 1200m cbt range is not terribely yunrealistic - while the .300 does not give much past 1000.

I would still agree with Kent and Rick (humbly too:) that the 7.62 option is the best bet avail.....

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 08:38:32 (ZULU)


Great pictures... nice rifles as well. Showed me just what I needed to know. I probably should have known that George wouldn't ship or sell me somethin that wouldn't work. Its' got a 5R barrel, instead of the factory winnie, but I still think it'll be fine w/ the short rings. Me and a couple deputies will be at Pickett State park on the 23rd -27th for a harley weekend. Gonna try to make it to the match. Email me the details.


Gonna try your trigger adj. as soon as I get the rifle from George. My guess is, it won't need adjustment. But thanks in advance for the article.

50 BMG and retina detachment...\

I've put up to 200 rounds in a day out of the 82A1. A little sore but didn't notice any vision problems. Eyes are checked pretty thoroughly on an annual basis, friend is an O.D. FWIW.


john <>
B'ton, IN, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 11:53:10 (ZULU)


The "detached retina" stuff is BS. I've shot over 500 rds of 50 bmg in a day puttin' guns on paper with no ill effect. The wife would disagree though. Turned around and put the same amount through more guns.

We are making a can now that you can use on the M82A1 without any hearing protection what so ever. We haven't tried it on the bolt guns yet.

Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, US - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 14:54:14 (ZULU)


>".408 - Needs work and not impressed right now.  Will let it go at that."<

Jeez Rick, they must be keeping you out of the loop down there...

... according to the higher ups in the .408 project, the US military is just sitting on the edge of it's collective chair with baited breaths, waiting for the .408... so "they" say  ;>).

What happens when you build a new .408 mouse trap (for a lot of friggin' money), and the world doesn't beat a path to your door?

I heard through the grapevine, that Dean was down at the SF convention with his magical rifle, and shot 3" groups at 100 yards... hee, hee, hee.

I got some e-mails from the people at .408, giving me some flack, so I sent them about 2 pages of what is wrong with the project and why it won't float in the long run, and got back some of the weirdest stuff I have ever heard.

I think they are trying to pump life into a dead fish... and talk about funny ballistics they promote.  One of the heads of it says that when a rifle bullet crosses the speed of sound, it turns down 45 degrees, and heads smack into the ground... so I asked him how those guys in Scotland shoot .303s at 2400 yds, and and asked him if he has ever watched .30 cal MG tracers smoothly arc across the sky, and he said that tracers are different :)))  After that, I wouldn't believe anything they say about their magic boolets!

They got a hell of a crew over there.  Each has his own gold plated shovel.



The 10" twist will handle the 220 SMKs real well, and in a fast stick, might handle the 240s also.


Tony Dude...

Good to see you back.  Are you still with Barrett, or somewhere else.  I heard you got married, and left that area.

There are Rumors that there will be a Ft. Drum shoot this fall... Sept or Oct.  If it is a go, can you make it?  I owe you 2 steak dinners, and about 200 beers ;)).



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 15:24:24 (ZULU)


Got hitched and moved to Knoxville TN. Haven't been at Barrett for 2 months now. Just kickin' back taking it easy. Working on my own semi .50. Gas operated. It's been tried before, I know. But got lot's of time on my hands, and an understanding missus.

If Ft Drum is a go later this year I will be there.

Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, US - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 17:23:54 (ZULU)


I got the following results in a Remington .308 bolt gun with Kreigher 1-10"

190 Sierra

39.6 Gr. Varget

Federal Case

Federal 210M

Gave me an average velocity of only 2361 fps and Standard Deviation of 14.  

190 Sierra

48.0 Gr. IMR4350

Federal Case

Federal 210M

Gave me an average velocity of 2503 and a Standard Deviation of 12.  

Tried the same with 48.2 gr of IMR4350(max in book). This gave me an average velocity of 2529 fps but Standard Deviation went to 30.

Load is accurate at 600 yard line.


Try various powders (burning rates) in your gas gun.  Start with something faster that Varget.  My M1-A will not shoot Varget even at 200 yards.  It shoots H4895 and IMR4895 into a knot at that distance.  It is also a Kreigher 1-10"

These loads were safe in my rifles may not be in yours, use caution.


Jerry <>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 17:42:36 (ZULU)

Pablo:  Post that stuff. Examining it will be educational.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 20:02:50 (ZULU)

Question - i have a buddy with a heavy bbl's .223 model 600 Mohawk - will a 700 stock fit or what does he need?


Tony - thanks - good to see you around again

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 20:04:09 (ZULU)

Kevin; I've never tried it but a MOdel 7 might fit. That is a different action than regular 700 I believe. There are probably aftermarket stocks for the 600 action. The only other thing that carries that action is the XP-100 specialty pistol. The model 7 would have to be channeled a little for the larger barrel.

Brogers < >
- Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 21:37:51 (ZULU)


I'll send you copies of the e-mails.  It will bore the poopie out of the rest of these guys.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 23:01:12 (ZULU)

Rob01,  I used the final finish on the Stealth today. It smoothed the bore noticeably. and the velocities were more consistant. Accuracy I can not comment on. I was out all day and did the FF after a match. I shot well during the match with only two screwed up shots. One at 500 and actually two at 100. I dorked up and cross fired, making a bad shot in the process then put the same shot on my target the next shot. That put me down 13 points right there. I guess there is always next month. So I was tired and the mirage was really going. I was gunna try to be smart and use 200 yd groups. But I just screwed up the groups and called it quits, only to have my wheel bearings go out on my truck. It has been a long day.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 03:52:09 (ZULU)


Thanks for the pointers on my new Stealth.  I have written them all down in my lil' black book...

I appreciate ANY suggestions from others about mods they have done to their Winchester Stealth rifles.  This is my first bolt gun and I am hooked already without even pulling the trigger on it !

Where an I look here for the proper way to "condition" my new barrel ?

I have seen alot of people talking about it but have not seen a definate step by step list of do's and dont's =)

Thanks  USMC_LB

Tim Duncan <>
Memphis, TN, U S of A - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 04:30:46 (ZULU)

The greatest chess player in history turns a grand-master's eye on the war on terror:

Tim:  Opinions on break-in vary.  Some do it and some don't.  With high end tubes it may not even be necessary.  Dan Lilja recommends it.  Gale MacMillan didn't.  I do it to factory tubes and my rifles clean up much quicker than factory tubes that aren't broken in.  My proceedure is:  Brush with shooter's choice until most black (powder fouling) is gone, patch of m.e.k. until shooter's is gone, patch with sweet's until green (copper) is gone, patch of m.e.k. until sweet's is gone, one patch of non-trick oil (the Hoppes in the orange bottle is nice), patch out, shoot a shot, repeat whole sequence ten times.  Do not let the shooter's and the sweet's mix in the bore or the chamber.  The story is that they combine to form some corrosive gunk that will do a real job on the metal.  That means that the chamber must also be cleaned between the solvents.  Then repeat the sequence shooting three shots until rifle cleans up easily.  Since this must be done at a range, and since the sweet's takes a while to work, take some other guns, a good book, a girl friend and a bucket of chicken.

The cleaning sequence above was shamelessly stolen from Bob Pease of Bob Pease Accuracy.  There are surely better ways to do this, but this works.  Especially the girl friend.

Believe it or not, I've done this to two Rugers.  (I don't want to hear it.)  Those suckers took a llooonnnggg time to smooth out, but smooth out they did.

Winchesters are vastly better to work with.

CDC' <>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 04:32:21 (ZULU)


I took the time to break in my stealth.  It seems to work,, but after about 200 rounds it really smoothed out.  I may clean for the first 10, but wounldn't put oo much into the break in,, it'll break in when it's ready and not before.

As far as mods,, get the actions screws replaced with hex, bring your trigger down to 3.4 to 4 lbs and make sure everything is torqued to spec and shoot it.

When you get it all done, load up 40 winchester cases with 44.2gr Varegt, WLR primer, 175SMK and drive on out to Tullahoma the 25th and get your 1K dope.

You'll enjoy this rifle.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 11:24:30 (ZULU)


I agree w/ Chris, the break-in time is equal to cleaning time, it will happen one way or the other. My POS LTR only took about 20 rds. or so and I cleaned between every 5 shots to no copper until it was taking less than 3 patches w/ Sweets to come clean. But the barrel is only 20 inches long. I didn't try the chicken and bucket of girlfriends thing though. It was fun enough w/o gettin greasy or fishy.

Tony Dude,

Tell me more about the M82A1 can. Can you still see thru the scope or did they move the bipod out under the muzzle brake?


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 11:41:14 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Good to hear the final finish worked for you. It will probably make cleaning very easy for you too. My accuracy didn't really improve muce either but the other effects were good enough for me. Let me know what you think afetr your next range session.

Rob01 <>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 13:51:20 (ZULU)

john in B'town,

The can adds about 14" to the end of the barrel. Bipod is still in the same place, just makes the front of the rifle a bit front heavy(imagine that).

Tony <>
Murfreesboro, TN, US - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 13:51:27 (ZULU)

Tony Dude...

So,when I mount to the front of my remote controlled robot for the TV show the producers won't say it's to loud? I figure I'll win several times before they know what hit 'em. :))

Have they put a price and availability on 'em for NFA purchase or is it strictly a Mil. item? I bought the 82A1 directly from Murfreesboro. email details, if possible.



John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 14:47:42 (ZULU)


Where was it you said the bubble level for anti-cant could be purchased?



John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 14:54:49 (ZULU)


Sinclair International has them.


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 15:07:57 (ZULU)

Anyone used any "Montana X-Treme" bore solvent? It is promoted as a combo cleaner, removing copper as well as powder fouling.

Any opinions?



drmarc <>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 17:49:27 (ZULU)

Has anyone done any testing to see how close two or more chronograph's results are?

I see several results posted for a particular load and I'm curious if the same load produces a significantly different velocity when shot over a different chronograph under the same conditions.

Old Ironsights <>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 21:04:00 (ZULU)

Just got back from Perry where I shot like a chump(no, not champ).  Missed the Pres 100 cut by 3 points, with me shooting a 91-0x offhand.  Met up with Sinister Dave for a brew and enjoyed myself in the lovely 90+ degree weather wrapped in Cordura for the week.  

190's in 308.  I use 42.0 of IMR 4064.  No idea what it clocks, but it's safe for use in gas guns.  Might be better to go to a slower powder for bolt guns and get faster velocity.  

308 Winchester.  While it's not the best caliber for LR shooting, it's what the lazy logistics pukes can support within their twisted totally archaic supply system, and that not very often.  I'd much prefer something like the 6.5-08 or better still the 7mm-08 shooting the 162gn A-max.  Better ballistics, better terminal performance and equal barrel life.  In my perfect world, I'd use the 284 Winchester(no, not the 6.5 version) in a Winchester action loaded long as the box allows with a 25" barrel with suppressor.  The troops would keep large stocks of ammo at the unit, to be used for training(shooting matches, etc) and to haul off to war and the guns would be rebarreled by civvie gunsmithes off an approved list.  Contracts would be good enough that it would encourage fast high quality service.  The JAG would come down hard on fraudulent non-performers.  Units would deploy with a case(1k) of ammo per rifle in their basic deployment load Conex boxes.  Ammo running out would only be a problem in long term commitments and by the time you start running out, the supply dickheads should have been able to get you the ammo even with their F'd up system.  The Army is sending many tons of AFFES PX crap to A-stan, do you mean to tell me that they can't get a couple cases of ammo there?  Please.

 I'd stop treating rifles like they are nuclear weapons and start holding the troops accountable for their stuff.  It's your rifle, you screw it up, you buy it!  Instead of docking the troop's pay, where the money goes off to some hole and the unit gets F'd, the troop pays the S-4 section the value of the rifle and the S-4 buys a new one to replace the one the troop cocked up.  And that's another thing.  I'd allow the troop to buy their rifle when they get out.  I figure that maybe 25% would take advantage of this.  The money would go towards buying BRAND NEW rifles.  What a concept, preplanned replacement of stuff that wears out.  Amazing.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M              

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 22:08:32 (ZULU)

Old Ironsights,

There is more to differ in load testing than just chronos. Two different rifles can use the exact same load and get different results. It's more the rifle than the chrono with the different results. Smoother custom barrels will run faster than rough factory barrels as a rule. Also barrel length will have an effect. My 24" custom barrel will shoot faster, with the same ammo, as my buddy's 26" 700P. That's why it's best to do your own testing with the loads and just use the other numbers as a loose guideline. Always working up to others loads.

Rob01 <>
- Monday, August 5, 2002, at 23:22:14 (ZULU)

Interesting item.  August 5, 2002; US Special Operations Command is now using small numbers of a new rifle, the SR-47 (Stoner Rifle 47). This is, basically, an American M4 carbine chambered to fire Russian 7.62x39mm ammunition and to use Russian AK-series magazines. The first six prototypes were rushed to units in Afghanistan last March, and more may have been sent since then (but any numbers are classified). The original idea was to provide special forces a rifle that had all of the "muscle memory" of the M4 carbine (location of the safety, etc.) but which used Russian ammunition. That way, an operator deep in enemy territory could use captured ammunition and would not leave tell-tale US-caliber casings behind. This was a relatively low-priority project until troops fighting their way into Afghan cave complexes found themselves unable to carry enough 5.56mm ammunition while literally awash in 7.62x39mm ammo stored throughout the caves. The original plan had called for the rifle to use American magazines but the special operators insisted that they would rather use "battlefield pick-up magazines". The SR-47 has other changes. US troops are used to hitting the magazine catch and letting gravity remove the empty magazine for them, something that won't work with Russian magazines. So, the SR-47 has an ejector spring to push the empty magazine out once the catch is released. The barrel is free-floating, making the SR-47 the most accurate AK-47 clone in the world. The prototypes shipped so far include sound suppressors, regarded as essential for cave fighting. Theoretical design work has begun on the SR-74 to use the Russian 5.45mm ammunition and magazines, should US forces go into a country that uses that caliber.--Stephen V Cole

Be safe.

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Monday, August 5, 2002, at 23:49:29 (ZULU)


I know different rifles produce different velocities, I'm talking about the same rifle/load shooting over two different chronographs.  I'd like to know if they are close or if there is a significant difference.

Old Ironsights <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 02:45:58 (ZULU)


           Never tried same rifle/load - two different chronograph experiment, but...... I use the Oehler 35P which uses three screens and compares velocity between #1 &#2 with the velocity between #2 & #3comparing the two velocities and tossing out the reading if the numbers differ. Using the two seperate channels is about as close as the average poor shooter is going to come to checking chrono accuracy, unless you have two chronographs, place them one ahead of the other (but very close) and then compare readings after allowing for slight difference in distance to muzzle between first and second chronographs

           In the real world, nobody bothers because of the availibility of the 35P! It does it for you.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 03:50:53 (ZULU)

Ken - yeah but your idea would make some sense.

Bill - thanks for the info on the action.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 04:53:57 (ZULU)

I second Old Ironsights' curiosity about chronos, and here's why...

Digging through the roster for a .308 load that matches the M3LR's 30-06 BDC cam, you're bound to find the much loved and often quoted recipe of 175gr SMK, 44gr Varget, Lapua brass, 210M primers, with a suggested velocity anywhere from 2675 to 2700 fps.

So, I loaded up some match-prepped Lapua brass with said primers, and said bullet, but with varying levels of hand weighed (to the kernel) Varget (what a pain in the arse!).  I loaded ten rounds each at 43.8gr, 44.0gr, 44.2gr, and 44.4gr.  I did this because I had no idea which load would produce, through my stick (700PSS w/stock barrel), the target velocity to match the BDC cam, nor which would produce the best groups.

As an aside, the Dillon measure doesn't work for sh*t when measuring Varget, which is why I hand measured all the loads, adding and subtracting kernels with a tweezers.

I fired five rounds each over a brand new CED Chrono at 100 yards, with the chrono 10 feet from the muzzle, just to get average, spread, and standard deviation.  I then fired five rounds each off a bench at 200 yards to get group sizes.

None of the loads produced the desired velocity, or were even close.

Grains  Velocity  Spread  S.D.

43.8    2617.8    35      14.2  

44.0    2620.2    29      11.6

44.2    2633.8    13      5.4

44.4    2647.0    18      7.0

For reference, here's the numbers from 175 grain Gold Metal Match.

GMM     2648.4    25      9

I'd include the group sizes, but I can't find the targets at the moment.  The 44.2 load produced a half MOA five-shot group, though I can't say as much about the other loads.

Anyway, I was bummed because I was nowhere near the suggested 2675 to 2700 fps necessary to match the BDC.  I graphed the numbers in Excel just to get a guestimate of how many grains of Varget I'd need to reach those velocities.  According to the graph, 45.0gr should yield 2690fps (which matches the Hodgdon data exactly), and 45.15 should yield 2700fps (which is over the Maximum load).

Just for grins, I ran my 44.2gr load results through JBM's on-line ballistic calculator, and at 2633.8fps, using a 175gr SMK, at my elevation with typical local summer time weather, the bullet drop matches my M3LR BDC to within 0.5 MOA all the way out to 1000 yards.

I haven't yet doped the 44.2gr load at the range to confirm that it tracks the BDC, like JBM suggests it will, but I have to wonder why my loads are so slow compared to others, yet my load - according to JBM - will track my BDC almost perfectly.  Which makes me wonder if, given that 44gr of Varget is supposed to track the BDC according to long-established Roster Wisdom, some Roster Hogs have fast reading chronos, but really good range dope.

Which is what makes me curious about chronos, as Old Ironsights is.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 06:58:19 (ZULU)

Michael A. Litscher...

Shame on you...

... you should know that a given weight of powder and given bullet ISN'T going to give the same velocity in all rifles... there is a TREMENDOUS variation in the muzzle velocities of rifles, with the same load.  Chrono's very in readings almost not at all, rifles vary a hell of a lot.

The fact that your book says that xx grains ABC powder gave 3,000 fps out of a 24" barrel, doesn't mean that if you load the same load, you will get the same velocity out of your 24" barrel.  Your velocity may vary by as much as 100 fps!!

Some years back, I got hold of all the .308 riffles I could lay my hands on, and picked up a bunch of Fed GM-1 of the same lot number.

I clocked 10 rounds out of each of them, and the velocity spread was around 145 fps (2570 to 2715)... and the spread was NOT a result of barrel lengths... the longest and the shortest barrels (2@27.5" and 2@24", all 4 were premimum, custom barrels) were the fastest, the middle length (26") were the slowest (2 Rem PSS's).

>"According to the graph, 45.0gr should yield 2690fps"<

45 gr of Verget is a safe load, so go ahead and try it.  It MAY BE over max in your book, but not be over max in another book.

You guys would be amazed at how "un-scientific" the process is, for determining max loads... just like the variation in velocities, the variation in pressures of a given load in various rifles is enough to make you question the whole system.

Guys, these books are "guides", and nothing more... you have to use your smarts and your loading skills, and ability to read pressure signs.

If you get a copy of all the loading manuals (I have)... you will be amazed at the variation in "max loads"... one book will say 33 gr is max (with a warning to NEVER EXCEED THIS LOAD), and another book will say that 36 gr is fine... "WTF?".

This variation comes about from the way the loads are developed, and the variation in equipment used at each company.

So don't expect these loads to be "Gods" formulas... they vary in muzzle velocity, and chamber pressure in different rifles.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 10:21:28 (ZULU)


Thanks !


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 11:04:57 (ZULU)


I run 45gr Varget in a Lapua case/210M primer/175SMK in my 26" stealth. NO pressure.  VERY minor crater on the pin mark.  It run about 2700, give or take 15 fps.  I know that it's not supposed to make a HUGE diffrence, but that load at 75 degree will go right that little 10 says it will at 1K.  At 97, it needed almost 3 moa less.  My father was shooting my rifle last match and only needed 35moa to 1K.

Nighforce scopes:

Any of you hawgs do a track test on your 3.5x15x50 NXS's?  I have one that's doing some strange stuff.  First 6 moa gives me 7.5" at 100 yards in both directions, second 6 gives me 6".  It's repeatable,, but that's seems like a pretty big deviation from the norm.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 11:14:21 (ZULU)

Ref: IMBEL M-444

I shot the heck out of the Imbel this weekend and had a ball.  I have a small issue with the trigger and would like to have it taken care of.  Do any of you know a good FN/FAL plumber???

Ref: Loads to Track a BDC

FWIW my loads of 44.2 grains of Varget push a 175MK at just 2,675 and track my M3LR 30.06 dial nicely.  Past 600 yards it's a give or take a minute thing depending on weather and elevation but it's close enough for government work.

Ref: The 'ol Ticker

I'm feeling better every day.  It's taking some time but I'll keep working on it.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 11:42:01 (ZULU)


This site is similar to alot of others, but generally relates to FN/FAL rifles and gear. If nothin else someone on the board may know of one near you.

Glad you're feelin better!!


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:05:57 (ZULU)

Old Ironsights,

sorry for the mix up but it seems someone else should have read my post, Michael. ;) I have tried my rifle across two different chronos, a Chrony Beta and a PACT, with the same load and found them within a few fps of each other. Not enought to worry about.


That 44.2 grns, as well as same exact components, that get's you 2633fps out of your 26" factory barrel will get me 2730 out of my 24" Lothar Walther barrel and it will get others differnet readings in thiers because of the barrel differences. Just the nature of the beast. If you have a hard cleaning barrel that's not giving good velocities might I sugest you look at some Tubb's Final Finish for the barrel. Click on my name for the article on it. I got about an extra 60fps from the same load in my 300WM when I tried it and it made it much easier to clean. Accuracy stayed about the same. Just an idea if you didn't want to push it to max even though max is safe in most rifles.

You're other option is to just remark the M3 LR dials. I do it by taping off the lower MOA markings and numbers 0, 5,10,15 etc and paint over the whole upper section with a light paint, I use Krylon tan camo, including the yard markings of 1,2,3 etc. Then I go back with a fine sharpie and mark where my rifle hits above the MOA marks with new yard marks. Much easier than chasing the chrono and settling on a load that gives you good velocities but isn't quite as accurate as your other load which won't track. Once I find an accurate load that is giving me around the velocities I wanted, nopt especially for the dial but to keep it supersonic at 1000 yards, I will mark the dial. I also tried other Varget loads like you did from 43-44.5 and found the 44.2 gave me the best accuracy but was a little faster than I wanted. Oh well, I kept it and just remarked the dial. They send you 4 dials with the scope so no need to buy more and all have the same MOA markings but have different yard markings so if you remark them as I described you can use all four for different loads of different temps like one for 70 degrees + and one for 40 degrees -. Just ideas.

Rob01 <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:14:39 (ZULU)

Lito: "you should know that a given weight of powder and given bullet ISN'T going to give the same velocity in all rifles"

I already knew that.  Which is why I weighed out four different loads, to find which load would give me the desired velocity for my particular rifle, with that particular lot of Varget, that particular lot of 210M primers, with match prepped and weight sorted Lapua brass.

But that's understood.  I wasn't trying to proove or disproove the Roster recipe - I was trying to match it's outcome so that I'd have a load for my rifle that'd track the BDC.

What interests me is that some Roster Hogs have loads they found track the BDC (44.0 grains of Varget), and they've chronoed those loads at 2675 to 2700 fps.

The Roster recipe calls for 44.0 grains of Varget, which is spectacularilly close to the 44.2 grain load I chronoed and then ran through a ballistic calculator which tracks the BDC remarkably well - on paper.

I'm suggesting the recipe is correct - I just needed 0.2 grains of extra juice for the factory tube on my rifle, which is no great surprise.

You and I have basically the exact same load, which you've found experimentally to match the BDC, and I've found theoretically to match the BDC.  The only significant difference is the velocity as reported by our respective chronos - therein lies the controversy I'm curious about.

If I knew someone nearby with an Oehler, I'd be interested in setting the Oehler side by side with my CED, and fire a string through both sets of skyscreens at the same time, just to see how close the numbers are between the two.  And, I need to dope out the drop for that 44.2 grain load at various distances.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:30:52 (ZULU)

The stock cure for the Fn trigger is take off turns on the trigger spring. Not a hard job. I think I took off about a quarter. It's surprising how much good it does. There's not much else that can be done or needs to be.

Brogers < >
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:32:51 (ZULU)

A brief summary of the political decisions that led to Black Hawk Down.  This doesn't mention Colin Powell's opposition to supplying our troops with AC-130s and Bradleys:

Note how the Chicken Choker in Chief's decision to free all our prisoners and run like a whipped cur gave Osama ben Dover reason to believe that he could safely exterminate Americans as if we were flies.

Policy advisors increasingly see Saudi Arabia as an enemy.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:52:20 (ZULU)

.....for all you "Savage" Paul Cockerham...who is MIA at the moment....Arnold Jewell has put out a new adj. trigger (5oz to 5lbs) trigger which can be seen on the BR board in a post from KenT....

KMussack....good to hear your doing better....I'm now able to walk upright again....drugs and PT are wonderful.....

Can't wait for ASC'03.....


JRMoore <>
Northern, Virginny, USofA...... - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 12:52:24 (ZULU)

Morning Guys..

  I want to thank all of you DR guys who have been so busy sending me e.mails. I didn't know I was so popular.(HA) It must be my turn on the list with our little prick friends out there.


  I have also shot a couple of guns across two different cronographs and I have also found there was not that much difference between the two to even say there was. You will see about as much variation as you will with the same load shot the next time over the same cronograph.


  Sounds like your Camp Perry shoot went as well as my sons. He said he had some mechanical malfunctions and a couple of brain farts thrown in for good measure.(HA)


 Have to agree with you on the .338s they are hard on barrels and people alike. I wore out two 300WMs in two years of shooting and was never bothered by recoil but I know that if I shot it then like I shoot now (laying straight behind the gun) It would pound the hell out of my collar bone and I am sure that would make me wine.

 You and I both know a lot of people are bothered even by the 308s recoil and a 338 would really make them gun shy. I think they need to stay with the 308s for a issue sniper rifle for the reasons stated by both you and Gooch. I feel that for Special Ops thats a different ball game and they should have 338s or 50s because the role is somewhat different. Just my thoughts anyway.

Pat <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 13:54:11 (ZULU)

Rick and others,  I like the 338 Lapua but by no means should anyone consider it a replacment for a 308.  Its an addition.  Recoil and bbl life is three times worse than a 308 and hard for a beginner to shoot with. Mna its good past 1000 yards though.

On reloading watch for loads from other weapons.  Different chambers/bbls do different things and you may have a load thats fine in a factory sloppy chamber but too hot in a nice custom piece.

All right give up the secerts whats the hot ticket for shooting 77's in as short a M16 tube as possible?  I mean a field weapon not a target gun.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 16:36:02 (ZULU)

edited out for space

bill rogers <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 18:05:53 (ZULU)

I finally saw Blackhawk Down last night.

Gut-wrenching... how could those kids come home from that and function? (rhetorical...don't answer)

Some technical questions (if not classified and no concern over answering in an open forum exists)...

Would Bradleys have helped? Can the APC's armor take a broad-side hit from the type(s) of RPG used in this situation?  Would the cannon provide any improvement in performance over the M2s used in this tight setting?

The movie shows what looked like a recoiless rifle being used... they showed the Delta guys load what looked like an old bazooka round into the breach... I thought recoiless rounds looked like an arty shell with holes drilled in the casing?  Was this a technical flub or is this some type of old hybrid weapon?

The movie did not seem to play on the issue of 5.56 not functioning as a man stopper in Somolia (as I have heard in many, many anecdotal, >third hand accounts of the situation) .. I had expected this to be "over-played"...what's the deal?

The medical scenes seemed fairly valid.

Is there a fund setup for the widows and children associated with the engagement?

Jim Mitchell <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 18:24:20 (ZULU)


 REF: 1st Deer Riffle for my boy:

 I settled on the Remmy model seven youth in .243.  Some of you may think it ain't enough for whitetail--but I considered all things and I am satisfied it will workie well (he ain't gonna be alone in that blind).  I looked at the savage 10GY, but the safety was rather stout for young hands to operate.  The winnies don't have the iron sights I wanted unless I special order one, and the remmy really fit the little guy.  So model seven it is!  The schnabel fore-end can go, but otherwise a nice little stick for a first real riffle.

 More debate on the quarter mile sniper?  Rick reiterated what I said before a while back---the world wasn't designed for fields of fire.  Where the world offers incredible fields of fire--well, the bad guys don't march around in places like that.  We need a versatile round, one capable of accuracy out to and maybe beyond 800 meters, useful on people, not too hard on the barrel, availablity must be absolute---hey wait!  We already got this now don't we?  A better mousetrap will come along sooner or later.  The only thing I can guarantee is this new round will not have a powder column the size of a bass boat or recoil anywhere near a 60mm mortar!  The one-off mission that may present itself rarely is no reason to equip the entire force with an "over-the-horizon" capable, flat shootin', barrel-eating maintenance nightmare.  At some point we stop calling them snipers and start callin' them forward observers!!!!  The few with the need for specialization are all over it.  The vast majority have the tool of choice in hand.  The 308 workie well for wide range of conditions!


Joe Mahon <>
Eau Claire, WI, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 19:13:16 (ZULU)

Nice article on Marine sniper training:

William M. <>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 19:32:35 (ZULU)

medicjim:The movie did not seem to play on the issue of 5.56 not functioning as a man stopper

in Somolia (as I have heard in many, many anecdotal, >third hand accounts of the

situation) .. I had expected this to be "over-played"...what's the deal?

Jim go to the following URL to see a page by page analysis of mentions of 5.56, 7.62 usage and wounding/killing in BHD.

Delta Sgt. Howe is the only guy who complained about 5.56 inadequacy. What barrel length was he using is a very valid question when it comes to the usefulness of the M16.  11 inch barrels don't cut it outside of very CQB.

Check it out.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 20:09:19 (ZULU)

Hey Sain!

I just got done talking to Gene at Cypress creek. I had to confirm some stuff regarding the Tac med course. Seems while we were discussing folks we knew he used the term "Coonass," in conjunction with a few other unfamiliar phrases when your name came up.

Now me being from NY and all I can only guess at the real meaning behind "Coonass" (must be some secret squirl talk you southern boys use) but when he stopped his rant I kind of felt he actually likes you. Hmm!

I failed to mention the descriptives you gave me so I would recognize him when he picked me up at the airport. I'll fill him in in sept when I get there.



Mark <>
NY, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 20:19:59 (ZULU)

Reloading manuals:

Oh mang.  Look at the rifles some of these places are using for their reloading manuals, dudes.  Many are using sporting rifles off the Wal-mart rack, if that.  Why?  Because a lot of places don’t have the red tape most of the ammo making companies have.  Ammo making companies usually have to check the pressures of their lots of ammunition, and they do this by buying very expensive ballistic test barrels whose every tolerance is checked to the nth degree to ensure that the piezo readings are accurate, so then they can hold their pressures within a certain range from lot to lot, then check the velocities of that lot, then check the accuracy of that lot.  3 types of test barrels: pressure, velocity, and accuracy barrels.  All are held to a standard set by SAAMI or CIP for safety reasons, but this works in the favor of the shooter, cuz he knows they are using SAAMI chambers and SAAMI bore dimensions, so they give more accurate results.  Now, I’m not saying factory ammo is better in any sense, but the results given in the manuals, expecially the powder manufacturers such as Hodgdon and VV, are more accurate or realistic because these readings are taken in a completely controlled environment, with barrels whose every dimension has been taken into account.   I don’t get  excited if I see in the corner of the page they used a Universal Receiver for their results, cuz I know those barrels, it irks me when I see ‘Ruger No. 1’, or ‘M700’, cuz I just don’t have a clue where that meets up with my stuff.  But any manual you decide to use, you’re still going to have to find the limitations of YOUR barrel, and go from there.

‘lito, that’s why I’d like to see a trend towards checking the pressures of their loads as you are checking the velocities, and manuals adhering to the same and listing said pressures with each load along with velocity, so you CAN get a good comparison, it is more of a true test.  No, I ain’t tryin to sell nothin’, but if I do use a P-Max in the future, I intend to log the peak pressures along with the chrony readings.



JR <>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 20:54:47 (ZULU)

Question:  I've got a stainless steel Ruger M-77 .308 that I use as a beater/trainer/loaner/dog.  I've dry-worked the bolt so much that the metal is galled.  I'm not getting rid of it because it fits like old boots but want the bolt to work slick.  What can be done to the bolt and who does it?  Is teflon the answer?  If so, who does it?  Does the "Brownell's spray and oven" trick produce a durable enough finish?

Medic Jim:  Field command (Downing and Garrison?) requested Bradley's and AC-130s.  Powell, Christopher, Aspin, and, ultimately, Clinton overruled the request as "provocative".  We'll have to assume that those professional soldiers knew what equipment they needed.  Speaking for myself, I'd sure rather sit in a BFV and take small arms fire than sit in a Hum-V.  A RPG amidships would be another matter entirely, but a broad side hit would be difficult.  The vehicle is not exposed for that long and vehicles in convoy cover each other.  A hit made at an acute angle has a good probability of ricocheting off.  It's no Fourth of July parade, but it beats the shit out of riding around in convertibles.  And an AC-130 overhead would be no small protection to the convoy.  You don't shoot them down with Jerry-rigged RPGs as they did the Black Hawks and they are FIERCELY dangerous.

Joe Mahon:  A .243 is not a deer rifle.  A .260 is.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 21:21:55 (ZULU)

Would Bradleys have helped? Can the APC's armor take a broad-side hit from the type(s) of RPG used in this situation?  Would the cannon provide any improvement in performance over the M2s used in this tight setting?<<<<<<

Brads with the addition of stand off plates to detonate the RPG's early would have very little problem vs the old model RPG's in use by the Sammies.  You might still get an occasional penetration, but with the addition of spall liners it would only kill people in the direct line of the shaped charge jet.  Ammo hits would still be bad, but that's life.  25mm cannon is much more effective than 50caliber and you can employ it in relative safety from small arms fire inside the Brad.

>>>>The movie shows what looked like a recoiless rifle being used... they showed the Delta guys load what looked like an old bazooka round into the breach... I thought recoiless rounds looked like an arty shell with holes drilled in the casing?  Was this a technical flub or is this some type of old hybrid weapon?<<<<

This was a SPG-9, uses the same 73mm ammo as the low velocity cannon on the BMP-1.  It uses a base with a little propellant to kick the round out of the barrel where the rocket motor ignites and boosts it up to a higher velocity.  In actuality, it carries less explosive than the RPG-7 warhead in the HEAT varient.  They do make a HE version for general support, but odds are that the Sammies would not have had them.

IMO, creeping about the jungle hunting other snipers is not a primary mission for the near future.  Hence the love for stalking in SS school seems like time misplaced to me.  But the schools like it because it is easy to grade objectively.  Using terrain is using terrain, but the desert is different than the woods is different than the dog fennel of Camp Pen.  I see much more use of snipers as a supporting arm like the Canucks in A-stan.  "This is Charlie 6 Alpha, we're taking MG fire from Hill 2255."  The snipers head over in a reasonably stealthy Ranger column using the terrain and engage the BG's from long range.  It's really DM work, but since we haven't fielded DM type assests, the snipers will have to take up the slack.  Hence the need for a slightly longer ranged rifle.  A 338 is better than the 50caliber IMO because it's easier to haul.  You could continue to use the 308, sure, but better is better.  And the need for laser range finders is absolute.  Non-fielding is unacceptable.  Any military snipers out there spend time on the AN/GVS-5?  How much?  Semper Fidelis...Ken M            

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:02:38 (ZULU)


I use a 243 for whitetail.(1972 Rem 788 with 21" factory barrel) The rifle was my fathers before it was mine.  He took 6 or 7 deer with this rifle (and about 200 woodchuck) and I've taken one.  None were lost.  If you use a ballistic tip inside 100 yards the results are devastating.  Out past that, a more solid bullet works good.  He always had very good results with the factory 103gr Winchester soft points for deer, and the 90gr Ballistic tip over 33gr Varget worked too well last season.  They don't go down like Texans like them to (I can already hear the incoming) but they go down.

I am real interested in the 260 also.  I figure the 6.5x284 will be shot out by the end of next season. I plan on pulling the tube, cutting off the chamber plus an 1" of so (maybe 20"), chambering to 260rem and mating it to a Winch action for a hunting rifle.  It would seem to have the advantage over the 243,, but the 243 isn't too little gun IMHO.

I'm sure yur Kiddo will love it,


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:17:19 (ZULU)

Ken M...

In your DM scenario, I think the 50 BMG would be the better choice, due to the variety of munitions... Match, plus AP, Incendary, Roufus, etc... plus nearly double the range.

I love my AN/GVS-5, but... the AN/GVS-5 is really great against third world trash like the cave rats in the 'stan... but against enemies with fairly technlogical forces, you will get returning fire real fast... maybe before you even get off your first shot.

With all the active stuff in the field, I think it's getting time for a return to a really good optical rangefinder, made of carbon fiber and all that space stuff... two feet long, three pounds, and pure stealth good for 4000 to 6000 yds/mtrs.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:31:25 (ZULU)

Coonass used to be a derogatory Southern term for Cajun.  Traditionally, the Cajun people were always thought of as a bastardized clan of people (which is exactly what we are) and they were often discriminated against because many were bayou people and uneducated.

Coonass is not so sensitive a term any more.  In fact, we're pretty proud of it now.  

But, with the old school Cajun women (i.e. my Maw Maw Boutte - Boo-tay), you had better be one yourself and she better know that you are one yourself before you call her a Coonass.

Otherwise, the response will be in chaingun French accompanied by a broom swung at head level.

Watch your sixes mon ami (my friends),


brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:39:18 (ZULU)


have you ever considered a sandstrom finish for the bolt?  it's fairly durable and dull

JR <>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:39:30 (ZULU)


You sent any rounds down range there yet??


We got a guy from Lousyanna,, I'd have to say he'd qualify as a coon ass. And another from LA that we call coonass.  Maybe he's a transplant (does your truck smellin' like rotten chicken livers and catfish count?)  I figured it was a backwood red neck thing but what would I know,, I'm a (GULP) Yankee livin' in the south....


..but ya can't burn a mans eyes out with that....  Well,, maybe the users.. ;))  Is is possible to make a optical that small and still accurate?  The only trouble I'd see is Joe shoving it down the side of his ruck and when he does the "rucksack flop", or they cut slingload,, das ist alas...

Mid-South Shooters....

I'm looking to set up a 4 gun match end of this year or early next year.  I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of:

Pistol:  Pop up range to 25 yards, 25 shots

Carbine: Pop up range to 300 meters, 40 shots

Shotgun: I'd need help here,,TBD

Rifle:   No sighters, 10 shots from 400, 500 and 600 yards

Aggragate wins with winners in each catagory.  If I can get enough interest in this we'll do it.  Last year they had 8 guys show up.

Also,, I'm looking at putting together a "Mini-Palma" for F class and "Any Rifle" shooters.  20 shots each at 500, 600 and 1000 yards, with sighters.  After 600 we'd break and grill us up some road kill,, no wait,,, (we're not in Alabama),, Burgers, hotdogs,, whatever, then shoot 1K in the afternoon.  Anyone in or close to TN that thinks thay may be interested in attending something like this let me know.  

I don't figure match fees for either will be much over our standard $10.


(editted to remove Lousyanna from a second insult, substituted the next best thing ;))

Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 22:54:30 (ZULU)

Dumb question deleted.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 23:17:10 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad: for work on your 444, try Mark Graham at ARS. I'll attest to his work, it's good, and what you're looking for. If nothing else, call him, explain what you've got, what you want, and ask what can be done. He's really good to work with, and specializes in just what you're looking for.

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 23:22:53 (ZULU)


Brian all I was saying was Gene said to say hi. Yikes on the cultural lesson plan. I'll be certain to keep my yankee mouth trimmed up tight around yer "Maw." God knows I don't want a broom handle up side my head.

Anyways, Gene says you some good people.

Be safe

Semper Primus.

Mark <>
NY, - Tuesday, August 6, 2002, at 23:30:36 (ZULU)

Jaeger, WILCO out.

Ref: BHD

A potential "Little Bighorn Event".  It could have been much worse.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:02:30 (ZULU)

In your DM scenario, I think the 50 BMG would be the better choice, due to the variety of munitions... Match, plus AP, Incendary, Roufus, etc... plus nearly double the range.<<<<<

Well, I'd say the 50cal adds another 500m of range at the cost of being a serious MF to hump about(1500m vice 2000m).  The 50cal has the hard target kill capability down hard, but killing armored vehicles with a sniper team is really for the arty, CAS and occasionally mortars(especially 120's)  The Objective SWS in 25mm based on the Barret looks mildly interesting(click on my name) but again it's heavy and long.  

>>>>I love my AN/GVS-5, but... the AN/GVS-5 is really great against third world trash like the cave rats in the 'stan... but against enemies with fairly technlogical forces, you will get returning fire real fast... maybe before you even get off your first shot.<<<<<

Negative, most of the targets we engage are not equiped with laser detectors and then it's simple enough to just do an offset range.  Only AFV's have laser detectors and even then it's only going to give you a cardinal direction.  It's not like the crew has a head up display that carats the source like on a fighter plane.  Besides, they don't know whether the laser is from a tank, a FO, a plane or some Darkstar UAV at 60K ft AGL.  Yeah, you can see some lasers with NVG's but then you just don't use the laser at night OR you switch wavelengthes and then the assholes don't know it's coming.  Normal EW stuff.  But that would presume a procurment system that gives a damn about infantry and that doesn't exist.

>>>>With all the active stuff in the field, I think it's getting time for a return to a really good optical rangefinder, made of carbon fiber and all that space stuff... two feet long, three pounds, and pure stealth good for 4000 to 6000 yds/mtrs.<<<<

I agree.  If they make one, I'll lobby for adopting it.  But right now things are looking grim.  The scheisskopfs at MARFORSYSCOM canced the can on the M40A3 and that was the best part of that heavy pig.  It may come back in the future, but who gives a damn if it's after the war.  A sense of urgency, people!  Hopefully the war's coming soon, before it takes 20kt in downtown NY or DC to make the point.  Then again, maybe that would be better in the long term.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:21:03 (ZULU)

This one is a little off the subject but a pretty good remake from ole Blueeyes. Turn your speakers on and check out this URL...pretty good

Kimbershooter <>
Disputanta, Va., - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:46:27 (ZULU)

Some time back, there was a discussion about the movie - event - Zulu.  Someone mentioned that "Zulu Dawn" was the forerunner of the Zulu uprising and that it was as good a movie if not better.  In searching for Zulu Dawn today, I also found "Shaka Zulu."  Does any one know anything about this one?


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:55:22 (ZULU)


  I sent you an e-mail about your proposed match. It's genuine and doesn't contain an attachment.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 00:59:00 (ZULU)

Ken and Catplugger - good line of thought let me throw my two cents in.  The military definately needs a longer range SPECIAL purpose weapon system and I was all for the 338 LAPUA until the RUM came out.  I would like to see a good shoot off of the two rounds.  The .50 is not a sniper rifle it is an anti material weapon system and its accuracy sucks!  Thoughts of hammering head shots at 2000 is dream land nonsense that non-snipers spout as a scare tactic for new laws.  Heck, hitting a body at 1400 to 1600 is probablimatic with wind currents and eddies screwing up flight characteristics.

Now on the laser range finder, not the threat that is percieved by so many.  Most laser detectors only state that a laser has been fired i their area, NOT where it came from.  I would not worry about lasing a target area as I know enough to stay away from eletro-optical devices, armoured vehicles, and the like.  Trees, rocks, dirt mounds, etc do not have detectors attached.  In order to work laser range finders fire a fairly narrow beam that would have to be aimed fairly closely to the detectot to be detected.  I would worry more about having to expose myself to get a clean line of sight for the laser to work in the first place.  As far as training, lasers are point and shoot.  The amount of training needed for them is minimal while the old techniques that do not need batteries need training so you have rangeing capability when the batteries go dead.  Quicky question, what are the yellow and red filters for on the GVS-5?  Answer later if ot known.  That is important to the sniper with opitcs, hint hint.

Catchunker - How did I know that you would go optical with the 88mm anti aircraft range finder used so effectively during WWII?  My problem with those items is that they are fairly fragile and easily knocked out of alignement and now I have a hollow 3 foot club.  I do agree that half the time that the guys deploy with a .50 they could have used a M2 instead and had some real fire power.  Or used the 60mm mortar and then really blown the crap out of the target.  But hey, the 50 Barrett is so... so... I don't know, heavy semi M2?

Stalking is an exercise, regardless of terrain, that teaches the sniper to move with care, stealth and patience.  Terrain is unimportant, the exercise is not an exercise for the sake of an exercise that is objective.  It is an exercise in movement, route selection, patience, and learning the importance of moving with head NOT firmly planted up fourth point of contact.  Sorry Ken but I will never agree with your assessmetn of the stalk.  Even in an urban scenario, the student learns form the rural stalk, this has been brought out to me by students over the years.  Now if the stalk is ran just for the sake of poping a student then the stalk is being ran wrong and the instructors need to be taught how to properly run a stalk.

AC-130s and BFVs were needed and would have made a very big difference in the Mog, but they were turned down by the National Command Authority, which included Powell.  Garrison was the one doing the asking.  So instead of looking like we were ready for a fight we let guys die so we didn't look so provacative.  I hope we have learned that bad guys only understand strength and not the liberal hogwash of "playing nice".  Sorry lost it there for a minute.

5.56 not a man stopper, get shot by one and see.  I have seen guys claim that tey shot a guy five times before he went down but we could only find one hole.  nuff said.

Pat - Agree and we have .338s for special purposes but not as a regular weapon.

Rifles and pistols - Pistol a handy item to fight your way to a real weapon the rifle or shotgun.  Kinda like vegetarian, old indian word for lousy hunter.

Well enough for now and will await incoming.

Hold Hard Guys!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 01:29:30 (ZULU)

MARCUS !!!!  No flame here bro !!!  Not at all.  I don't even want to discuss that.  I in no way took your comments as anything but the way you intended them.

In fact, I was thinking earlier today that the DR has sure been running smooth with nobody pissed or with their feelings hurt.  I kind of like it that way.  That heart on the sleeve shit gets monotonous.

No culutural stuff here buddy.  I am a notorius kidder and can damn sure laugh at myself.  Sorry if my post came out preachy or like I took it wrong.  Just thought I'd give the Coonasses a plug.  I KNOW that I am Coonass white trash. he hee !

That said, did Gene get you all lined out ?  You should have a good time.  I am not an EMT guy but we are currently integrating them into our team now.  

I have a good friend, Terry Myrick, cardiovascular surgeon, ex-marine medic, helluva shot, has more sniper rifles than Quantico.  Rich bastard.

He was going to join us but his regular call load is way too heavy as it is without the addition of a SWAT pager.  Sure wish he could hang with us.  Nothing like a cardiovascular surgeon around when you need one.

It is a needed thing TEMS.

Your friend,

the Coonass !

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 02:22:51 (ZULU)

Yeah, it doesn't take much time to get people up to speed on the GVS-5, but every year or so somebody gets blinded anyways.  The ones we have in the building just have the black rubber lens protectors, are you talking about the greater NOHD for lasers vs optics?  Or the protective filters for 1064nm like on the sand/dust/wind goggles?  I'm the only Cat II LSSO for my Bn and I have not run a range in the last three years so smebody doesn't think the training is important, at least not in this unit.

I guess I mis-stated myself in regards to stalking.  It seems to me that everybody gets all fixated on stalking, much the same way that the USMC gets fixated on COD in boot camp and useless uniform crap on the supposed BST test.  Stalking is a useful skill in much the same way that COD is useful or knowing how to wear the uniform is useful.  But it's not the end all, be all that a lot of people NOT in the sniper community seem to think it is.  And I'm absolutely NOT talking about you, Rick, I'm talking about that Wash Post article in particular, but a trend I see in general.  Everybody seems to think that snipers take their ghillies to bed with them instead of some ugly drunk chick you found at the local dive.  I don't and I don't know anyone who does.  At best, guys take a veil because the ghillie is normally just a giant, heavy, hot sweaty torch waiting to happen.  Stalking is good for the route selection and terrain usage skills it teaches, but it's just one skill among many.  And IMO, it's a skill that is not currently most in demand.  That's not a reason to let it go to scheiss, as has happened in the past, but it means that you need to focus on things that are more likely to get used.  IMO shooting, in particular, is being neglected.  Why?  Because getting range time and ammo is hard.  A lot of snipers I see think they are good shots because they have been to the school and because they get off maybe 200-400 rds in a year.  I hate to tell them, but I get off about 3000 rds a year and I ain't good enough, so what's that make them?  I don't know about other services courses, but in USMC sniper school you fire about 800-900 rds, which gives you a good feel for that particular range and makes you a reasonably skilled person for a while.  But those skills go away in a hurry, doping wind particularly, and it isn't something that's going to come back in a hurry either.  Why do you think that I advocate a better wind bucking, flatter shooting cartridge as opposed to the 308?  Because I know that most of these guys don't get the training that they ought to, and that other rounds are more forgiving of ranging and wind errors than the 308.  I just got back from watching most of the best teams in the nation blow their wind calls during the NTIT at 600 yds.  It was only a 6-8 mph full value wind and a lot of these guys blew it out their ass after having several tens of minutes and a bunch of gear to make the call.  What makes you think some 22 YO Cpl with less than 2 years shooting experience is going to do better?  

As for LOS considerations, next week I'm setting up on a hill overlooking a MOUT facility in Camp Pen, I'll let everyone know how far I can reach out to.  Obviously situation will dictate, but I hate limiting myself to something that works "most of the time" when there isn't a particularly good reason for it.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M              

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 03:08:59 (ZULU)

JR:  Here's that Sandstrom URL:

Which of these products do I want and where can I buy a small amount of it?


CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 03:38:52 (ZULU)

edited as worthless

Brogers < >
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 04:14:27 (ZULU)

Ken M.:

 Here's the devil's advocate in me rising to the occassion:

 If our school-trained snipers are going home and maintaining with 400 rounds a year---why would you want a more expensive round to play with?  One thing I've learned is if you have two toys costing x dollars, you will only get one toy costing 2x dollars in exchange!  So, if training is lacking with those cheap lil' .308s--imagine how much more shooting you are going to do with a 338LM or some other state-of-the-art boolit.  LEO is quite different, but military is what it is:  Big, expensive and as uniform as it can be (to cut those expenses).  And (mygawd--I can't believe I'm going here) training is always defaulted to "good enough."  Dollars again.  This is why SOF is held separately in budgeting--this is our exception.  But for the rest of the force, competing expenditures dilute training outlays to the point where decisions are made along these lines: If 500 hours is optimum for NVG flight proficiency, then 300 will do in a pinch for unit trainers--or, let's just halve the ammo requirements for CS units and call that proficiency for those folks (my personal favorite budget F/U).  Don't put blinders on; snipers are fighting for dollars against the aviators, engineers, and cooks!  This why congress cuts USSOCOM a check all by themselves--too many tankers cuttin' into the pie before... And if you squeeky-wheel loud enough--someone will build ya a nintendo-style simulator that shoots just as flat as kansas and bucks gales with nary a hint of drift!!!!

 So, in nutshell--do you want a .308 that you can buy gobs of--and a disciplined C.O. that can get range time?  Or do you want a new gee-wiz round that costs so much that you get three per year to play with and a CO afraid to let any but the best even try?  

If you are dead-set on taking it to the next level--someone is gonna have to get political for you.  Now I am laughing my ass off---of all the folks I've hung out with, snipers have got to be the least political humans on the planet!!!!  That, my friend, is probably the biggest hurdle to force modernization--the politics of money...Man, I'm still laughing about the political sniper...hey?  Ain't that considered an assassin?  LOL!  Too funny!


Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 04:43:08 (ZULU)


Brief review here of Shaka Zulu:,60,15353,00.html

I think the series was made in South Africa.  I saw most of it a while ago.  It was interesting, though pretty gory.  Fascinating study of how a relatively simple weapons innovation and new tactics coupled with a strong-willed leader shifted the balance of power and created an empire.  I don't know how true the history portrayed is.  Perhaps Marcus would comment?

William M. <>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 04:53:46 (ZULU)


 Some guy named Clinton says "Balck Hawk Down" was Bush 41st's fault!  This guy is great...just don't use anything he might say for answers on a history exam!!!!  Instead, go to this link for the real deal.

BTW--Nicole continues to amaze us.  She is impervious thus far to her chemo treatments.  She just soldiers on....simply amazing kid!


Joe <>
The Dells, Vacation, with kids - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 05:04:21 (ZULU)


I would like to nominate you for Sec. of Defense. I hope you continue your career all the way to the top of whatever ladder you're on.

Glad to hear about Nicole as well.


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 11:29:20 (ZULU)

Of the 2 I found, weaver base attachment and scope attachment, anti-cant devices, which is the most common or preferred? The weaver base model seems to be prone to catching on things...but you can see it with your non-shooting eye. The scope mounted model is more expensive and smaller but it clamps to the scope tube on top and must be leveled when installed. Comments, suggestions, please.


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 11:48:39 (ZULU)

Senior brass on board for Iraq invasion:

The whole Middle East will turn upside down.  Good.

A tale of our procurement/supply system.  This backs up some of the points Ken M has been making:

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 14:03:33 (ZULU)

'yote bait........

                  The people that you posted about are CREOLE! You've confused them with the CAJUN! No insult percieved from this descendant of a Cajun family dating back to the times of Evangeline:-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 14:42:07 (ZULU)


Got my Gardner Gun in last week and got to do some shooting with Fatboy this weekend.  George sure can build em!  Fired first shot from bore sight and hit 1" high and I think 12" left.  Made corrections and cleaned (break-in), then fired next shot.  2nd shot went dead bull and next 8 rounds followed.  Total group size of 9 shots was 1 1/4" of Fed GMM.  Actually the last 5 were fired consecutively without cleaning and 2 of these opened the group up.  Had the neatest little cluster in 3/4" from the rest.  We moved on to loads testing just for velocity info and weren't worried with group size.  Total powder weight spread was about 1.5 grains between 15 rounds.  We had loaded with .3 grains difference between loads and only fired 3 rounds per group.  The velocity difference wasn't what I expected but what was nice was the total group size of those 15 rounds was again around 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" I think.  We didn't measure but that is what it looked like to me.  That is flat out tremendous for that wide of a powder weight difference and number of rounds.  This is from a .300 Win Mag with a 24" tube off a bipod and no rear rest, just my gloved hand.  George, this thing is awesome!

The range that Fatboy has the 1000 yd shoot at on the 25th is nice!  If any of youse guyz can make it, you should have a great time.  I'll try to be there with this new stick but can't make any guarantees.  Ya'll take it easy.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 14:57:39 (ZULU)

CDC - RE request for Bradleys..My intent was not to second guess the decisions/requests made by the field commander... I didn't know an answer, so I asked... nothing implied.

Ken wrote: "Hopefully the war's coming soon, before it takes 20kt in downtown NY or DC to make the point.  Then again, maybe that would be better in the long term."

Ken, I'm thinking that a 20kt air burst over NYC might just impact me at <50 miles outside the city limits... catshooter is in CT, probably close enough to get 'burned' as well.. sure hope you all tip a few in our memory...

Joe M... you have my vote.

Brian Sain... I suggest you attach your cardiologist to the team as an advisor (costs you NOTHING!)... TEMS teaches medics a whole lot... but a cardiologist and a GOOD trauma doc could make them that much better... Only medics in the top 1% are good enough... everyone else is "in training" (me included).  You ever get a tactical medic that thinks he is a 1%, throw him out.... he ain't.  

Jim Mitchell <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:02:30 (ZULU)

edited for space

Bill Rogers <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:26:39 (ZULU)


I've shot a few times at some bunnies, and 10 rounds thru the 6.5 x 284 of my mate's here at work.  That's about it, there is some legalities to get worked out before I can step on the range with rifle in hand, for one I have to join a gun club, and that's no biggie, all ready had the offer.  You have to have a bona fide reason to keep firearms, and ammunition, bloody communists, and these reasons must meet the satisfaction of the local sheriff.  Once I get that sorted, I'll have the rifles shipped and I'll be good to go.  


I'll take a peek at that site and get back to ya

later eh

JR <>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:38:22 (ZULU)

CAJUN:  Acadian is the proper term.  French Canadian with a little Spaniard, Dutch, American Indian, crawfish mixed in.

CREOLE:  Same thing basically, only with an African, Carribean influence.

A mix of these two is known as a Redbone.

New Orleans has always been wide open. Going back next month.  Most of my Dads people are from that area.  Many Cajuns migrated to this part of Texas.

BILL:  Wasn't no dream bro. She lives here with me. You just described my wife.  Broussard (Broo-sard) on two sides. Fruge (Froo-shay) and Bourgeois (Boosh-wa) on the other.  Full blooded, died in the wool Coonass.  At any given time, she can't decide if she wants to fight, f23k or cook ! and mean as a cottonmouth snake.  

I guess she has to be to stay with my crazy ass.  

... No, I ain't sharin' but I will tell her you said hi.

PS:  You oughta see her sister.

Lafayette SWAT - now THAT is an oxymoron !!! Crank de motor on dat fan boat cher, dat beeper done beeped and we gots to go !!! I gots de boolets jus don forget de rifle.

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 15:43:57 (ZULU)

For all Varget users... I read an article in Rifle Shooter recently about using powder measures. And I decided to try the methods in the article to see how it would work with Varget. So, here is what I did. First dump the powder into the measure til its almost full. Then tap the measure untill all noticable settling stops. Then using a case throw 5 charges dumping the powder into the can or trickler not the measure. Then tap the measure and throw the next charge, weighing it. Then adjust the measue and tap it to settle the powder again. Throw and weigh the charge. Repeat this til you get it the charge you want. The conitnue the tap,throw, wiegh sequence.  I just did this method and found it to be very consistant. Only twice was the charge over. And Under weight charges were off buy 5-10 kernals. The key is to be consistant with the force used for tapping the measure. I used a wooden rod 1" in diameter. It is the mallet I use for bullet casting(Cutting off the Spure). If you need a lot of ammo and don't have time to weigh each charge this seems like the way to go.. If anyone tries it please let me know how if your results were good bad or indifferent.

I have a question for all users of 168's. I have had serveral folks tell me that 168's will not stay SS at 1K. My ballistics program shows them to still be SS at that distance and the program has all ways been accurate. Whats the deal? I dont want to run 175's through my M1A. But I want to shoot it at 1K..

Yote Bait, No need to apologize to Coonass', cajuns or ceroles. It wont be till some time next week  that they notice you offended them ;) Just like insulting a Hill Billy....

Dirty Steve (Originally form West-By God-Virginia), out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 16:58:32 (ZULU)

Brian'; THAT's Her! shurer hell!!! Nidn't know she had a sister! Now if this Cossack I been married to for the last 40 years don't find out! Maybe I can trade some mules and rifles! Aw hell, I'm too old  for to get whupped by a Cajun woman everday anyway, but it's a nice thought!

Bill Rogers <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 17:02:12 (ZULU)

On tapping measures: I do it, always have, on down stroke and up stroke (not on progressives). Those that have been around some might remember when these things had the little metal mallet thing mounted on the side on a hinge. One tap with that, all the way up, let it fall, hits the side of the cylinder. Accuracy? I can't shoot the difference.

Dirty Steve: Either works. I've shot 168's, and had no problem, but I tend to run mine on the brisk side. The 175's have actually a scoche LESS bearing surface than the 168's. Run them through your M1A and be happy.

Joe, "black hawk down" was the fault of Bush. So are fattening foods, pudgy women in thongs holding Cuban cigars, and unmarried teen pregnancy. Sorry, that last one was actually a Clinton fault. Keep that good news about Nicole coming!

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 18:00:37 (ZULU)

Syria throws in with Iraq and is harboring Al Qaeda operatives.

MedicJim:  My post sounded different than I meant it.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 18:06:38 (ZULU)

Kevin (Andy's dad),

Where did you get your M444 from?  How's about a review (mebbe when the weather turns less friendly...don't want to sacrifice range time. Heck, might even be a good "creative writing" project for Andy ;))).)?  I've heard mixed reviews about 'em on the FAL boards, so I was curious.  I figger, if I get one (FAL) it's not for pinpoint accuracy, so if an M444 will shoot as well as a DSA, why not?



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 20:04:15 (ZULU)

More bad news about CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease).

It all started by people mixing animal carcasses with commercial livestock feed to increase protein content (and profits).  Moral of the story:  don't f#&k with mother nature.

This is the main body of a memo passed down from a water Pretreatment Coordinator to treatment plants in western states:

On 9/17/01, I sent out an email to everyone on my email list at that time about Chronic Wasting Disease and concern about discharges to POTWs.

There have been deer and elk identified in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, and South Dakota that have a disease called Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). CWD is caused by a prion. A prion is a protein that has an abnormal structure. A different type of prion causes scrapie in sheep, "Mad Cow Disease" in cattle in Europe, and Crutzfeld-Jacob Disease in humans, among others. There is a lot of work occurring on CWD in Region 8. Even as this email is going out, the First National Conference on CWD is happening in Denver. Prions in animal tissue are very persistent and can only be destroyed by some fairly aggressive treatment (high temp digestion, high temp incineration, etc.). Normal disinfect ion techniques are often ineffective (boiling, alcohol, dry heat, etc). The University in Fort Collins and the University of Wyoming have installed equipment that eliminates the infectivity of the CWD prion (a Large pressure cooker using sodium hydroxide). They discharge to the City of Fort Collins and the City of Laramie, respectively.

Bob Brobst, Rick Koplitz (CDPHE), and myself have been involved in this from a waste disposal standpoint. Little has really been done on coordinating with the various regulatory agencies on wastewater disposal (discharge of waste to POTWs, leach fields, etc). Currently, the Colorado Department of Wildlife (CDOW) has begun to construct facilities to process deer and elk heads in several locations. These locations include Fort Collins, Craig, and maybe Grand Junction.

The CDOW takes tissue from tonsils, lymph, and brain for testing. They intend to incinerate or send the heads for digestion. The labs where the tissue is taken are washed down and equipment sterilized. This water must be disposed of. Two methods of disposal have been pursued. First, they designed it so the local POTW can take the waste. Secondly, they are applying for a underground injection permit to discharge to a leach field. In the former situation, they have no treatment in place nor do they have data on the concentration of chemicals or daily wastewater volumes they expect to generate. The CDOW is working with us to develop this information.

The concerns regarding this activity is several. Discharge to a POTW will move the prions from one media to several others. Of particular concern is the biosolids generated by the POTW, the discharge of prions to receiving waters that are used by wildlife as water supplies, as well as, public water supplies. We do not know the epidemiology of this disease, including how persistent it is in the environment (though it appears to be at least 3-5 years, maybe more, the dose required for infectivity, the potential for affecting other species, including humans, etc.). POTWs need to be aware that their treatment is not thought to be effective (even UV radiation or the level of chlorination used) at inactivating the prions. Land application of biosolids would be of particular concern (composting or other treatment is not effective). We do not know the potential impacts of animals grazing on land application sites, nor the potential impact of consumption of plants or animals exposed to these prions. There is too much that we do not know about this disease organism.

We have been compiling alot of information on prions and will send out some information that we have compiled from CDC, World Health Organization, and others before long.

We have been working with CDOW on looking at implementing total containment of the untreated waste. Discharge to a POTW is not currently an option that we have indicated would be acceptable for any waste with active prions. Minimizing the wastewater volume and then evaporation followed by high temperature incineration is our best guess at this point. If they can take wastewater directly to high temperature incineration, we also found that reasonable. The ash from the incinerators is slated for disposal at a landfill. It is also an option to install digesters, such as that used by the CSU Vet School, for the destruction of the CWD prion. We are continuing work on this, daily.

Aside from the government/university facilities, POTWs need to identify other sources of potential contamination. The first business that comes to mind are the commercial slaughter houses that process deer and elk meat. Who are they? Are they on sewer or leach fields? What can be done to control these facilities? Do these facilities know of the potential problems?

Based upon current research, it appears that this disease is spreading. This year, the CDOW alone expects to process up to 50,000 deer and elk heads. A certain percentage of these will be infected. Wyoming has higher infection rates and will be processing animals. We need to work relatively quickly to assess the threat to POTWs, receiving waters, and biosolids. I will probably be organizing a one day meeting to focus on the wastewater management issues this fall. We need to involve pretreatment people, biosolids people, the various university and wildlife people. Any feedback would be welcomed.

Old Ironsights <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 20:46:30 (ZULU)


I think this is the sandstrom you are looking for:

9A AS5272Type II

can either be sprayed or dipped believe it is baked at 400 F, check out the specs at the sandstrom website, it's on the mil-spec solid lubricant's link.


JR <>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 20:58:08 (ZULU)

Ref: IMBEL M-444

I got my rifle from Dans in PA.

I'm happy with the rifle and it functions fine.  My sole complaint is that since putting on American "green" furniture the selector switch will swing out of the semi position and the hammer will follow the bolt forward resulting in a malfunction (fail to fire).

The trigger pull is not too crisp but I think it can be fixed.  The gun shoots when I pull the trigger and I can hit the steel out to 250 yards most of the time.  Off the bench with surplus ball ammo the rifle will group inside 2.5 inches regularly with some better groups from time to time.  The bore will load up with copper fouling after 100 rounds and takes quite a while to scub clean.

If you're looking for a .308 blaster this is probably the best bang for the buck.

I'm giving some thought to mounting a low power scope (ACOG) to see if I can improve my hits.

If you've got any specific questions drop me an e-mail.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 22:04:15 (ZULU)

Anyone used touched or smelled the new Nikon tactical scope.  I wonder if it compares to nightforce?  The eternal cheapscate...


Ben Weeks <>
- Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 22:08:16 (ZULU)

Well Joe, good to hear about Nicole.  

I don't advocate replacing the 308 with a 338RUM or Lapua, I'd like to add 2 to each platoon's TOE to add another capability to the sniper.  As I mentioned, in the ideal world I'd like a better cartridge to replace the 308, but it isn't going to happen because of so many OTHER factors beyond my(or any infantryman's) control.  IMO, getting the ammo shouldn't be a problem.  The problem is the fact that a significant portion of the military leadership of this nation no longer considers the infantry a key part of winnning wars.  In fact, we are not worried about winning wars, only maintaining fragile peace in outer Shitholistan.  The problem, at it's base, is the fact that we've been at peace for too long.  We need some serious war in order to clean house at the puzzle palace and the various Commands thoughout the US military.  Green welfare needs to go away.  Damned if I know a solution that we could actually get done.  The idea of running for political office is a laugh.  But I suppose I could talk to my Congress critter.  He's a Navy flyboy, so he can't be completely useless.

A 20kt bomb is small, about halfway between the Hiroshima bomb(12-15kt) and the Nagasaki bomb(22kt), it really wouldn't do all that much damage outside about a 4-6km radius in a western urban area.  The real damage in Japan was caused by the fire that followed the bombs.  No firefighters, no water pressure, life is going to be very hard in the immediate future in the blast area.  Also, my money's on a ground burst.  Trailer of a semi or something similar.  That also cuts down on blast radius.  Downwinders might lose some hair and have a higher risk for cancer and other bad things.  Hazardous levels(100 rem/hr) from a ground burst would probably extend 10-15km downwind with lesser exposure extending much further.  This would all be fallout exposure that could be averted simply be getting out of the area for several days.  Click on my name for the Redwing Seminole test shot, which was 13.7kt surface burst.  It's probably something very similar in output to what some 3rd world nation could put together.  Bad juju, but hardly the end of the world.  I know you East coasters are packed A to B, but a NY shot would not have any real effect on CT.  I've been to Peace park(Hiro bomb ground zero) and I'd rather not have one here in the CONUS, but it wouldn't be the end of the US, not by a long shot.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M      


Ken M <>
IL, USA - Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 22:58:50 (ZULU)

Ben Weeks good to see your still alive.  You still got that 40lbs rock in your rucksack?

I saw the Nikon scope at the Shotshow and looked fairly good.  The newer ones are not out yet because they re doing some different things to the reticle.  These things takke time especially when you just spec a scope and have someone else build it for you.  You looking for a new lesser expesive varible go with the M3 LR from Premiere.  Not made in China.

Bill 223 not wroking.  Get your medication.  Its good to go.

Rick, Captain Stewart called today.  Seems like a hell of a nice guy but never imagined you hooked up with a West Pointer.LOL  I gave him all the info he wanted.  Talked for an hour.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 00:36:09 (ZULU)

Whoever authorizes a blast like Ken M describes should be ready for a real bad hair day.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 00:37:14 (ZULU)

Old Ironsights;

    On the wastewater treatment,have you considered ozonation (ozone)? It's supposedly better than chlorine at killing stubborn "bugs". It also oxidizes organics.

    Another technology is mixed oxidants(MIOX)systems. They have been shown to have a very good reduction in Crytosporidium(very resistant to chlorine)and Giardia, also eliminates E.coli and cholera in a half hour. This system uses electricity and a sodium chloride brine(saltwater). Over simplification but you get the idea.

    I realize that you are dealing with a protein, but these may be something to consider if you haven't done so. Almost everything in the water and wastewater business is geared towards disinfection of bacteria and virus types.

    The system I work for, City of Satsuma,AL Water & Sewer Board, may start considering these options in the future. The MIOX system probably will be the better choice for us.

    We use ground filtration as a major part of the wastewater treatment. Problem is when the ground gets saturated(holds water), the wastewater sits on top. Doesn't help that the ground has clay in it.

    Can the disease be transmitted by parasites(fleas, ticks, etc.)? If it can, it will be hard to contain. Also, what threat is known to humans?


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 00:42:34 (ZULU)

edited for space

Brogers < >
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 01:35:48 (ZULU)

Rich S.

....Kevin (Andy's dad),

Where did you get your M444 from?  How's about a review.....

How about a review of the White Oak Precision AR15 you picked up last month?  There are plenty of AR shooters on the board.


Jerry <>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 01:55:06 (ZULU)

Ref: IMBEL M-444

You can get a semi-auto selector by using an inch pattern selector and dremel the selector a bit. Or just buy a DSA semi selector, they may even be cheaper then an inch pattern one.

You can improve the trigger pull by cliping a 1/4 turn off your trigger return spring.

paul <>
Alexandria, VA, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 02:03:44 (ZULU)


I'm workin' on it.  Believe it or not, I haven't had it out to the range yet fer breakin' in.  I'll be gettin' my ammo etc on Friday, so by next thursday, I'll have had some rounds through 'er.  I had to wait to get the cleaning stuff from Sinclair, and the sling etc. from Tommy at Georgia Precision will be here on Fri.  I'm psyched.  I was at the range today shootin' the CZ .22 and cleaned the "Black Death" target with a perfect 50(  scroll down to the Black Death rules and target etc.).



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 02:30:34 (ZULU)


Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 06:29:47 (ZULU)

I O .......

          About CWD - reports from Wisconsin say that three people came down with Crutzfeld-Jacob Disease (related to CWD) reportedly after eating venison from the same animal. I don't think that further tests are in yet, but my wife just returned from the area late last week and says that the hunting population, and that means most people in the North Woods, are scared. A rare disease in humans, CJD occurs so infrequently that for three people who had nothing else in common but consuming the same meat, it looks like a link between CWD and CJD is being established.

           The CDOW recently announced that there will be a formal CWD test facility in Grand Junction at permanent CSU installation. It's about 20 mi. from my house. Another reason not to drink water!

           The hunters in this area (Western Colorado) are very concerned with this situation as they watch it grow. There has been virtually no public education on the subject coming from the CDOW at this point. It looks as if the drought might be ending, and with it the threat of forest fires. If this is the case, we will probably be inundated by hunters from out-of-State, as we are most every year, who might know even less about CWD, and could serve to spread it to other States. The cynical among us believe that the CDOW is deliberately keeping the threat of CWD quiet for several reasons. One is that they recieve their funding through the sale of hunting licenses, another is that the outfitters that make their living guiding out-of-Staters and the large landowners that lease them private hunting lands will have a shortfall this year if no hunters show. They are a very powerful lobby in the Statehouse. Another very powerful lobby that stands to lose a huge amount of revenue is the Chamber of Commerce types, who own the lodging industry, plus the stores that sell food and liquor. Add to that the gas stations, convenience stores, ans sporting goods stores. Hell, there's even money to be made selling the licenses. Money talks, disease scares walks. I guess we can sit back and watch what happens. Me? I'm hunting Utah this year!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 06:38:52 (ZULU)

Pressure on Sadaam.  The punch line comes at the very end of the article:

Sketch of a battle to take Baghdad:

"...urban fighting can be difficult and dangerous."

No fooling?

CDC' <>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 12:32:02 (ZULU)

edited redundant

Brogers < >
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 12:44:09 (ZULU)

Ken M..

  I agree with you on your statement that it would be better to have a round that would buck the wind and take away some of the error in the wind calls.

  The problem is that each caliber has its own unique wind bucking ability and it takes thousands of rounds down range before you as a shooter can make the calls accuratly. I started shooting the 308s and afer a couple of barrels had them figured out pretty well. I Then switched to the 260 because I got a better bullet with better wind bucking and after 2 barrels I got fairly handy with that one. Now I still needed the "Extra edge" to keep up with the competition so I went to the 6.5x284 and it was even better yet.

 But you know what, I don't think I shoot as well as I did before. I now have a tendency to either not correct enough or correct to much. The other problem is when I switch back to the 308 or the 260 I am not as sure of my calls as I used to be. The point is I think we need to stick to "ONE" rifle and shoot it alot and I know this is what your saying too. The porblem being that they don't get enough shooting.

 I personally feel that giving them a rifle that shoots flatter and with less wind drift won't cure the problem. Like Rick and I were saying the .338 is a bear to shoot for the average shooter and hard on barrels equating to less rounds down range.

 In your defence I know what your trying to say but putting a band aid on a cut that needs stitches won't really help. Just my thoughts on it. Will it help if I say "I feel your pain"(HA) Hang in there Bud!!

Pat <>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 13:49:59 (ZULU)

Washington Post's "Saudis as enemies" story of a few days ago was way overblown:

My tiny children are in the other room calling "I want to be an Airbourne Ranger" cadence.  It irritates my wife to no end.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 14:28:15 (ZULU)

CDC, I can see were your wife would get a bit miffed. I suggest you get Rick to go to the Clothing Sales store and send you a tape of cadences. Along with a tape containing the Ballad of the Green Beret. I mean you do want to expose them to real culture, don't you?

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 16:05:58 (ZULU)

edited for space.

Bill Rogers <>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 21:17:27 (ZULU)

Rather than using my kitchen table to resize brass, I'm going to build a loading bench this weekend with my dad.  I'll probably just construct it from 3/4" plywood and 2x4s.  Ideally I'd like room to mount two Forster presses, then throw a shelf under neath to stack stuff on to weight the bench down.  

Does anyone have any design suggestions?  If someone has done something like this already, and can provide pictures, I would much appreciate it.  Thanks.


Michael Roberts <>
MidMO, MO, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 21:21:35 (ZULU)

Mike Roberts, Make the whole thing from 2x4's even the top that way you won't need anything to "weigh it down" it'll be heavy enough without it!! That's how I made mine! grandson whenever he sees a soldier or the flag on TV salutes! His dad sweares he didn't teach him that, I didn't so it must be in the genes and blood! Oh he's 2 almost 3!!!

Maybe there is hope for a new generation!!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 22:44:02 (ZULU)

Jody Calhoun,

I'm not in the water treatment business.  A buddy passed the information along to me so I don't know the results of the meeting that was mentioned.  I've done a little research and every state now has a program to look for CWD.

The Colorado DOW had some deer in pens for a time for studies.  Of course, they had to feed them and some, over time, escaped or were released.  CWD was discovered in the herd and now the pen area is considered contaminated and they're not sure how long the contamination will remain in the soil.

Deer and elk farms are not a good idea because of this problem.  Keeping deer or elk concentrated in one spot doesn't help the situation.

I also saw a  local news report in Utah a couple of years ago before I had heard of CWD.  It was about a northern Utah man who had a rare brain disease.  His doctors believed he had contracted it from eating deer meat.  They didn't say where the deer was harvested.

Old Ironsights <>
- Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 22:50:26 (ZULU)

Survival water;

   One of the companies that makes a mixed oxidant treatment system now has the same technology in a "pen". They sent it to Afghanistan for evaluation.

   It is supposed to be available in 2003. Go to, click on news.

Old Ironsights;

   Please pass on the info I posted to your buddy. Water and wastewater technology is progressing quickly these days. There is probably a solution out there.

   You wrote like you are in the business. You really had your stuff together. I was genuinely interested in your post. Now if only news reporters could pass along information that well.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 00:02:26 (ZULU)


I've been thinking of getting a 22lr for my wife and daughter.  I'm real interested in the CZ 452 Varmint.  The only drawback I see is that they aren't available with iron sights, as I wanted my daughter to use irons for a bit longer before transitioning to a scope. Well, the LOP for a 7 year old will be a bit much, but it'll be on bags for now anyway.

Do any of you own a 452?  General impressions.  I've found them in the $320 range.  Also,,, do they need special rings for optics?

The rifle will be used to shoot steel sillouttes to 100 yards.  Any info or alternate suggestions is appreciated.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 00:29:13 (ZULU)

oops,, double tap...

Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 00:30:21 (ZULU)


I'm a lurker here on this board, and just a sport shooter/plinker (but, the information you can get from reading the many posts here still do apply and help), but I do own a CZ 452 American (chambered in .22WMR instead, so your milage may vary).

I've found it to be a good rifle. Good build, pretty good accuracy (I'm still getting the feel for the rifle). The barrel on mine was a bit skewed to the right against the stock, nothing a bit of sandpaper and a dowel wouldn't fix. The wood stock is solid and has a good amount of heft to it (not ridiculously heavy, but a good weight to give it a sense of solidness). Also, it seems to be picky on what ammo it likes to get fed (like any other .22 rifle in existence) in terms of accuracy.

According to many of the reviews and conversations I have heard about them, the CZs seem to shoot very good out of the box. Many people cited them as probably one of the best values for accuracy out of the box.

The only gotcha I had with CZs are that they seem to alternate between 3/8" and a 11mm scope rail (some lines use the 3/8" rail, others will use the metric 11mm rail). A set of rings that I found work well with these are the BKL 257 rings (they can be used interchangably). You could probably get any other rings to fit with a bit of effort (if it turns out to be a 11mm scope rail).

In all, I'm happy with my purchase of my CZ 452. I do hope that you do find a rifle that is a good match for your needs.


Jon Quirit <>
Chatsworth, CA, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 01:03:39 (ZULU)

HELP!!!!!  I'm trapped in P-Cola Lower Alabama and I've got no place to shoot.  Anyone in this area that can help?

Semper Fi


Steve Field <>
Pensacola, Lower Ala., USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 02:17:26 (ZULU)

edited for space.

Brogers < >
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 02:44:41 (ZULU)

We're running a selection for a USMCR SS platoon in Chicago(2/24) in the near future.  If you're located near Chicago, or are willing to travel there monthly, please drop me a E-mail.  You need to be 03(any) MOS (8541 preferred, but not required), under current contract to the USMCR or coming off active duty.  Former active guys are especially welcome.  We're looking for good physical shape, strong infantry skills, self motivated, and able to operate independently without someone holding your hand.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M      

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 02:57:15 (ZULU)


Well said, Pat. I note the same thing...that when I shoot a lot of different rifles I'm not as sure of my calls. Primarily, I stick to my .308, as it does most of what I want in a rifle. However, when the conditions are bad and I need to reach out I grab my 6.5 X .284. After shooting it, though, I do find myself udercorrecting on the .308.

Pay heed to the old saying: "Beware the man with one gun. He just might know how to use it!"

Tomorrow is a day off and "play day". Steve Nelson, custom gunsmith is meeting me to test some of his custom rifles. Since I'm feeling devilish I'm going to introduce him to my 6.5 X .284...:-)

More tomorrow after a day on the range. YEE HAA!

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 03:02:54 (ZULU)

Steve Field:

Think there is still a public outdoor range over in Mobile.  Don't have specifics.  Shot there once several years ago.

Good Luck.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 03:55:13 (ZULU)

Hey Chris,

A lot of what Jon said was right.  I have a 452 Varmint and I love it.  However, I've found mine to be very UN-picky about ammo. I think alot of Jon's ammo sensitivity is also due to the fact it's a .22 mag. Mine will shoot one holers at 50yds all day with El-Cheapo American Eagle all day long.  At 100 it really likes the Eley Silhouette and the Wolf Match Target and Fed GM are sure fire winners.  In fact I just maxed out a "Black Death Challenge" target yersterday 50 out of 50 with my 452.  

The triggers are OK but what's really nice is that you can adjust them yourself quite easily. As far as the scope dovetail, all the models except the 452 American use an 11mm dovetail.  I have a set of CZ rings on mine and they are SOLID.

If you're looking for a smaller model, check out the 452 Scout model.  It's designed for kids and has irons on it.  In fact CZ's have about the nicest irons you'll find on a rifle of it's kind.

Overall I think they're probably the best .22 out there for the money.  I've found a couple of places that have'em for about $290.  Heck, get a Varmint or American for you and a Scout for the youngin'

Hope this helps,


Rich S. <>
Baltimore, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:15:51 (ZULU)

Ken M.,

 We definately agree on the "cleansing" aspect of general war:  That would solve many, many problems.  Getting rid of the spineless careerists is the biggest benefit I can think of.  Too many of my so-called peers are too afraid to step up and 1) Tell it like it is; 2) take risks in anything (not gambling, just trying something new) or 3) Giving subordinates the ability to "grow" with some responsibility and autonomy...Zero-defects!  I made field grade literally on the backs of some good NCOs who had free reign to do their jobs...and I am considered reckless by many of my peers (including my current boss).  These same detractors are also the same who will carry very bad habits into a war.  Not these short firefights we've had lately, but war--these guys will weed out quickly!  The survivors will be no-sh!t leaders that will support and defend your obligation to train hard!!!  Maybe Kim II will oblige, eh?  My politician remark meant the "in-uniform types" of 0-6 or above at the table fightin' for money for sniper programs.  I can't think of one in the Army either.  But hey, I'm almost there!  I know the value--and will pull hard when the time comes!  But man, are we at the mercy of some managerial pricks or what???  When I started this ride, Nam vets were serving throughout the chain.  They changed the Army into the desert storm juggernaut that whipped the fourth largest army in 100 they retired.  The sycophants who grew up in these hero's shadows are now in charge.  I could go on forever...better not though.  I work for some of these folks....


 Bush started "humanitarian Assistance" to the Sammies.  Clinton ended this operation--declaring victory over hunger.  Then the UN came under attacks from the warlords---and Clinton launched a new operation--resulting in the bloody battle of Mog memorialized in BHD.  Bush's nation feed was over---Clinton's peace-keeping with mission creep (incremental escalation over the force's designed capabilties) was a whole separate deal.  Same country though, I will give you that.  To blame Bush is to ignore a whole bunch of executive decisions and initiatives.  The most disciplined part of my career was holding my tongue while a certain individual held a certain high office and killed some of my associates and a friend...then he flew the bastard who was the objective to a peace conference on a US bird.  Today, he forgets all this recorded chronology as he placed the whole thing on GHWBush's lap!  Gawd.  I almost puked.  But I never voiced my disgust til now.  I think it's OK to voice an opinion on "history."  Errrr, I hope it is anyway....

Anybody else enjoying this goddam "peace dividend" yet?  I sure as hell have in the past 12 years (lotsa tax breaks!)!  But, then I sure do miss the old cold war sometimes--lotsa family time!

Cranky Joe (briefin' useless stats to generals at the HQ)

Joe Mahon <>
FT Knox, KY, TDY - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:27:50 (ZULU)

Guys .....

          Saw some recent photos of the USMC DMR (M25) and the M40A3 sniper rifle. I noticed that both rifles were fitted with odd pairs of scope rings. Six top screw ring in the foward position and four top screw ring at the back. Both rings had single bolts securing them to the 1913 rail. By their specific features they were of GG&G manufacture, but it was hard for me to be sure because of the photography.

          Can anyone out there give me a heads-up on this situation, such as why they've adopted this combination and who, in fact, is the manufacturer? I've never had the experience of having a good set of four-screw rings, like Badger, GG&G, MWG, Mk4, etc., fail, come loose, or whatever, especially on a .308! What gives?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:39:06 (ZULU)

20kt Nuke:

 Now that round settles wind drift problems, don't it?

 Seriously, Ken--you are dead on right.  I'm betting on Seattle though.  PAC-Rim nations ship more lil stuff, and Indonesia is the next hang out for the bad guys.  A nuke is easier to hide in this mix, higher PK ratio for a one-time attack scenario (it'll be smuggled out of a siberian bunker for a Million US)...Bio attacks:  probably happen four or five times before we even catch on.  May precede the nuke by five years.  I say the nuke inside of ten years.  I'm willing to bet dinner on this at the ground zero steak-house...any takers?


Joe Mahon <>
Still TDY, in , Wonderland! - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 04:40:37 (ZULU)

Well - I think I'd buy into Joe's tgt selection - but in a closer time frame.  I will refraim from comment on the rest (least my opinions [fact or not] get myself in deeper water up here.)

I had better slink off to my hole for the next while - a have reappeared on the email tgt list again - I almost opened one from KenM's email till my scanner kicked it up as a V.


Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 05:21:54 (ZULU)


Has anyone had a chance to look at the new Weatherby TRR?  I read an article about it in GW/LE about a month ago, and it looks pretty good.  I wonder how it would work with a new Nikon tactical sitting on top of it?  Best of all, I contacted Weatherby and the Threat Response Rifle and Threat Response Magnum will both be available to non law enforcement types who are interested in precision rifles, unlike the pain you have to go through with Remington to try to get a 700P.  Just curious.


Marcus Ingram <>
Hinesville , GA, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 11:06:01 (ZULU)

I agree w/ Kevin, I hope we're wrong, but I feel this whole problem will be on its' way to resolution in 10 years.


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 11:32:43 (ZULU)

I think that's what FDR thought. in 41 or was it King David?

Bill <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 13:22:09 (ZULU)

Israel destroys bombers family homes and deports relatives to Gaza.  They are also killing all of Hamas' senior command.  This is exactly what I said they should do a month ago.  It's in the archives.

Terrs sneak a nuke into US?  Who'll do it?  Al Qaeda?  They'll be dead by then.  Sadaam?  Him too.  Iran?  The mullahs will be out of power.  There's incredible pressure on the terrorist networks.  Arms traders don't know if customers are actually antiterrorist agents who'll turn them over to Dave's buddies and Rick's students.  Real customers don't know if that friendly Russian mobster is actually on our payroll.  The customer's money is drying up.  So I think not.  We'll see.

CDC' <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 13:31:05 (ZULU)

Joe:  NO BET!  During a family whiskey bottle-around-the-campfire gathering I predicted a major terrorist attack a couple years ago (to happen within five years).  I said the same thing to some friends and co-workers.....of course some thought I was nuts.  Amazing how attitudes changed after 9-11.  I mean, the situation seemed pretty obvious.  The US has THE bullseye firmly on our back.  It amazes me that so many people can be so ignorant of what is going on in the world.  Bio and nukes are coming, it's just a question of when and where.  They may catch some, but sooner or later one WILL get through.  I doubt there is anyone on the roaster that would disagree.  When it happens, I sure hope we have the right leadership at the helm.  Taking into account Murphy's law, it would probably happen with Hitlery ClitNon in the oval office.  Despite the fact that she probably has bigger balls than her husband, she would be clueless.  And without a mighty fist of instant retaliation, it would open the door for everyone, from nation states like China down to the last tin pot fruitcake that EVER thought of fucking with us or our interests.      

One of the things I remember from the presidential campaign, was how the press completely hammered Bush on his lack of foreign policy experience.  We all heard the statements and interviews on national and worldwide TV to the effect of "Bush is an idiot and has no clue about foreign policy", yadda yadda.  It was so blatant that I remember saying to myself "if I am the Chinese, or Hezbollah, or Saddam, I am watching this and drooling on myself."  I was pissed at the media for doing it too.  Basically airing an open invitation to fuck with us.  Hey, thanks a lot dickweeds!

I also remember thinking to myself that Bush appeared to be surrounding himself with some really bright advisors in key positions.  In other words, dummy or no dummy, he still had enough smarts to pick the right people to fill in his weak areas and delegate accordingly.  That is a good leader.  We are reaping the rewards of that leadership in the campaign against the Taliban and Al Qaeda.  ClitNon or Gwhore would have bypassed the cruise missiles, bypassed his military advisors, and flown a single manned airstrike against a large goat herd to "show we mean business" and called it an "equal response", but without any other support, right into fortified Taliban held territory (or something similiarly stupid and ineffective), and probably got someone shot up or shot down.  

Next election we might not be so lucky and the door will really be wide open.

Sorry for the rant.  Tired from working all night, and you pushed a button with the prediction thing.  No shooting dope to post, working way too much.  I need sleep.  I hope I am making sense here.  As you were!    

Edited cause I cent speel today....

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 14:11:50 (ZULU)

I think it's time I found a job further from ground zero...

Even dopey me knows not to ignore predictions from this group...

I'll be typing resumes this weekend...

Anyone need a firefighter/medic with a proven ability to recruit, develop and manage elite teams in a oppressive fortune 100 environ?  Basically, when it comes to competing with todays crop of MBAs, I can do just about anything better.  I'm humble too..

I'd like to be at least 100 miles from an urban center... and I want a range in the back yard.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 15:50:59 (ZULU)



          I wonder why we (the USA) always have to wait to get hit first, then retaliate. History shows us that this is a repeated trait, and one that's going to come back and bite us on the ass, and with a vengence. I guess it's just the "American Way".

          Preemptive strikes, carried out properly, could have averted some of the tragedies that we've suffered in the past. And I don't mean bombing asprin factories or empty caves. Lacking any kind of effective long range missle capability, or even a real air force, our Muslim enemies found a very effective way to strike us in the heart. And what do we do? We literally POUND SAND!

          We insist on striking military targets only. Was the WTC a military target? Was it a coincidence that the Saudis were major players in both WTC disasters? When a Jihad (holy war) has been declared on us by these maniacs, and not decried by the official "governments" in power it doesn't take much to figure out what to do about it.

          Expel all those citizens of certain select countries and halt all further visas to people of suspect backgrounds or origin.

Destroy all Saudi, Syrian, and Iraqi oil fields to start. Destroy all military bases belonging to those countries, and to any others that actively harbor terrorists. Turn Isreal loose on the Palestinians, and keep them supplied with munitions as long as they need them. Make it very clear that we will continue to destroy their military and their economic power as long as they permit this shit to go on. Assassinate the leaders of all the countries and continue to do so until friendly regimes are solidly in place. Make it perfectly clear that since they are so religiously driven that we will destroy every Moslem holy place including Mecca itself, if a single terrorist attack on our country, citizens, or military ever occurs. I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

         All of this will never happen. Instead, we will be stuck in a Viet Nam type of quagmire until the Muslims, Chinese, and North Koreans have ICBM's targeted on our entire country. I can hear the "won't ever happen" exclaimations already. Yeah, just like Tet couldn't ever happen, losing the war in VietNam couldn't happen, blowing-up a US warship in a "friendly" port couldn't happen, and the Twin Towers would never be brought down! Ground Zero at the Washington Monument?

Rant over,  ALAN

Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 15:52:34 (ZULU)


Check out for info on the M40A3. It was written by Mike Miller so the info is good. I'll put it as a link in my name. From ther article it says the rings are Badgers.

From the article:

"The scope rings are Badger Ordinance brand. The front ring is wider than the rear. This is for a special cap that provides a mounting platform for the SIMRAD Night Vision Device. This device allows the user to use a day scope and attach a NVD over the top and slightly in front of it."

Rob01 <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 16:24:57 (ZULU)

CHRIS:  CZs shoot pretty good for the money.  Seeing em a lot on the silhouette ranges these days.  The BKL rings rock on the CZ or an Anschutz rail.  Brownells has 'em.

Get der Anshuetzen ven you get serious meinen freund.


brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 16:54:36 (ZULU)

Rob/Allan the scope  rings on the M40A3 are currently Badgers.  The first ones were made by GGxG  but the big contract ended up with Marty.  For once in my life I wont say why but the change was in my opinion a better choice.  Ask George Gardner why he thinks they changed to Badgers. LOL he will say.

Also the most current M40A3 has a bolt stop moved to the side of the receiver like Norcal makes, but a copy of the McMillan design.

Been playing with a new rifle from George. It what I think the USMC should have ended up with:

M24 taper bbl.  Scheider or Rock does not matter.

Subminute Solutions stock

Badger floor metal

Badger scope base

The thing weighs 12lbs and shoots sub .25moa all day, as long as I do my part.  Let a USMC Captain shoot it in a class I put on and almost ahd to shoot him to get it back.

Take care


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 18:10:14 (ZULU)


Sent you an email from my work address, I will resend via the 'certified' email associated w/ snipercountry (I wasn't thinking about how we need to screen)...

for safety, I suggest you only open the one that matches my email in snipercountry... sorry for the screw-up.. time on the email should be just before I posted this message.


Jim Mitchell <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 18:50:37 (ZULU)

I was wondering if anyone had some 300grn HPBT Sierra Matchking loads for the 338 Lapua Mag? Any 250grn loads would be fine also but he has 300s to start with so they would be prefered. My buddy just picked up some brass for his AR-30, which isn't in yet, but he wants to get some loads ready for it.  If you don't want to post it here then drop it to me in an e-mail with 338 Lapua as the subject.

Rob01 <>
- Friday, August 9, 2002, at 19:56:27 (ZULU)

Hey Alan,

Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 20:42:37 (ZULU)


The Anshutz is my first choice.  I'd like to get my hands on a older Model 54, or a 64 if the stock was right for silloutte, but the current crop were's stocks made for positional small bore unless it's a dedicated siloutte rifle, which are $1000+. Guess I could replace the stock, but then I'd be in the $1000 range anyway,,,,  I should get another 308....

My second choice would be a Winchester model 52B, and the CZ varmint my third.  The CZ seems to be the most economical solution, but I LOVE the triggers on the Anshutz...

I guess since this rifle will be my daughter first real expierence in shooting anything besides the Red Ryder I should do it right and make sure she likes it.  I may not get another chance.

Thank you all for the tips so far,, it's helping a great deal.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 21:37:41 (ZULU)


Been reading here for some time and have enjoyed the postings and commentary.  If I may join in, the reason that we as a nation don't go all out is because it's not "popular" with the liberal media to turn world opinion to support us.  If we are struck or harmed in any way, the media by way of Tom Brokenjaw and others can say hey look!  "We were minding our own business and were savagely attacked." thereby forming world opinion to back us.  But heaven forbid a preemptive strike that would once and for all tell the world that we are not to be messed with EVER!!!  Public ratings for the network would go down and cost them money.  Some day I hope they understand that we as a nation have got to mean more than just tv ratings and dollars to line their pockets.  Sorry for the rant on my first post.

daniel flores <>
salinas, ca, usa - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 21:38:31 (ZULU)

That's one of the many things I love about this site.  You never have to wonder what someone is really thinking!


Right on!

Jim Mitchell,

Try the Missouri Ozarks.  The weather is great(at least TWO days a year), if you don't mind humidity.  My backyard range is only 100 yards; but the local gun club (five miles away) goes to 500 yards.  Quite often you have to run the deer or the turkeys off before you can shoot.


Doc Holloway <>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 21:54:32 (ZULU)


Just back from our local range. Sighted in an early RSI Ruger .308 Mannlicher. Nice gun, smooth barrel, but seems ammo sensitive and the best it would do was in the 1 1/2" to 3" range. Most loads over 2". I'm NOT happy with that. Been spoiled by my other guns. Will hunt with it this year as my .284 Mannlicher will not be done until next season.

My Chandler 6.5 X .284 shot wonderfully, as usual. My last several groups at 100 were in the 1/4" range for five rounds. Six hundred yards groups at 1.5". The gun is almost boring and will spoil you for most else. Especially, for hunting and accuracy. LOVE it!

My comrade, Steve Nelson, was testing his clients newly stocked pre-'64 M70 in .280. BEAUTIFUL work. Shot nicely, too. Give Steve a call if you are considering a really nice custom hunting rifle. He is, by the way, Secretary of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild.

The Guild raffle rifle will be a highly modified 03 Springfield in .35 Whelan. You gotta see's probably highest grade work ever done on a Springfield. Comes with a furniture quality display case. You can own it for $20.00...the price of the raffle ticket. They are only selling 4,000 tickets!

All for now...have work to get ready for...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 22:06:33 (ZULU)

  Edited fer sanity

CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 9, 2002, at 22:31:11 (ZULU)

Ref: The 'ol Ticker

I saw the Cardiologist today.  Things are shaping up quite well.  It's back to work on Monday.  I walked two miles this morning and six miles this evening.  I'm feeling better every day.

Ref: Match @ SMTC

Who's going??????  I made our reservations at the Econolodge today and the check goes out to Rod in the morning.

Ref: Raton Shoot

There's plenty of room at the cabin for anybody wanting to strap-hang.

Attn: Medic Jim

Until you move away from ground zero I'd suggest wearing a patch on one eye, keep your sleeves rolled down and taking lots of iodine. ;-) Upstate New York is nice and the gun laws are not that bad but if you're going to move take a look at Arizona (Tucson).


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 00:18:15 (ZULU)


 Edited fer sanity

CatShooter <> "

Inquiring minds want to know:  Whose???  It's way too late in my case, anyhow.


BMG Mike <>
- Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 01:13:49 (ZULU)

CHRIS:  I am sure you already know that there are cheaper Anschutz's for the little ones that will probably out shoot the CZ.  Based on the 54 actions I believe. Butt spacers and all.

As far as a 52B goes, the newer ones are beautiful rifles and feel great in your hands but you will spend money getting it to shoot with an Anschutz.  Just sold one.  The old 52s rock if you can find one.  Not cheap unless you find one in a pawn shop somewhere and they don't know what it is.

Got a Meistergrade 1710 D last year.  Loopy 6.5-20 EFR.  BKL mounts. Shoots ten Winchester bulk Dynapoints from K-Mart (just as well as Eley Tenex) into a 1/4" hole at 50 when I hang on.

Death incarnate in the squirrel woods.

Good luck bud,


brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 02:32:32 (ZULU)

Anxious For Your Input***308 loads at 1,000 yards

After shooting on a regular basis to 600 yards, two weeks from now I will be shooting at ranges at or over 1,000 yards.  I know this is really pushing my .308 but, am interested to see what it will do.  Barrel is a 26" 10-twist Kreiger.  Can anyone share their experiences with FGM 168 vs various factory loads of 175 BTHP Match loads at 1,000 yds?


Mike D <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
Palm Harbor, FL, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 02:49:55 (ZULU)

There is a range in Mobile. It's called Mobile Shooting Center. Not a bad place.

Limited distance though. Last time(few years ago) I was there the rifle range was 100 yards or a little over.

They do have a good place for pistol and shotgun shooters.

               LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 04:21:28 (ZULU)

Edited cuz I got nothing to say.

CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 11:15:22 (ZULU)


Thanks mang,,, I'll keep that in mind today as I peruse the isles.  I used to shoot old 52B's in 4 position small bore, and also one of the older Anshutz, but it's been about 15 years now,, so I forget now which model.  I passed up a 52A in a 52B stock two gun shows back for $400.  The guy did a hack job getting it into the stock and I couldn't bring myself to pay it...  We'll see what's interesting today,,, God help me if I come across a Winch HBV in 223.. ;)) the duece duece might have to wait.

Mike D,

I know some guys here will defend the 168's, but in the last year I've seen no less than 6 guys try a 168 load.  Some Fed GMM, some Sierra handloads and some with Nosler J4 handloads and nobody has made it to 1K supersonic, factory or custome tubes.  They hit the target most of the time,(NOT supersonic) but no one shooting the 168's has taken a spot in the greater 50% placement, where as the 175's make it to the low to mid 190's very regularly and sometimes high 190's. (Mean Gene Graham shot a 198x12 with his factory Savage 110 Tac a few weeks back).  I'd stick with Black Hills 175's for a factory load or load up a 175SMK in a win case, 44.2gr VarGet with a WLR primer seated to 2.810" and run with it.  Out of a factory 26" tube it'll get there with plenty to spare and is damn accurate to boot.  Not much to look at at 100 yards, but it performs out long. YMMV, work up.


I keep missing it,,,  If I was a betting man, I'd say whatever you deleted was something most of us would want to read,,,  Speaking of things mysteriously disappearing,, I haven't seen Torsten around lately.  Could that be your deleted secrets,, you've finally hooked up with Torsten's seester??  Please tell us you're not going back to sheep ;))

Off to hunt the isles...


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 11:52:58 (ZULU)


"Edited cuz I got nothing to say."  What's the problem, are you ill?  I have never known you to be at a loss of words. We all enjoy your words of wisdom so quit teasing us.

HDR <>
Bartlesville, OK, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 14:48:03 (ZULU)

" Edited cuz I got nothing to say.


Isn't that sort of like the printer's oxymoron: "This page left intentionally blank."

BMG Mike <>
- Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 15:36:46 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell,

Like Mussack said, Upstate NY isn't so bad. Yes it's NY and yes the criminals, Hillary and Scumer (oops! I mean Schummer.) are here but I live in a place wher CCW's and the shooting sports are not only tolerated but really are quite common. Weather is as nice as any in the NE and the price of land and houses is acceptable. Oh and did I mention that hospitals can't find enough help.

Hit my email if you want to get details.

Here is what's bugging me,

Regarding some postings from a couple weeks ago: There was some commentary about the Canadian sniper who was on the carpet for supposedly dishonoring some dead Taliban. Well some of the posts in response to that story kinda disturbed me. Specifically I'm talking about the posts that thought the sniper was getting a raw deal.

Well here is my take on it. Assuming of course that this soldier did infact dishonor the dead taliban: Why shouldn't he be in deep Kimchie?

Again, assuming it is tru that the behavior was dishonorable or even in bad decorum, why would a soldier dishonor himself by acting disrespectfully toward another soldier, terrorist, scumbag, whatever?

The bottom line (it seems to me) is that, if as a soldier, you wish to be honored and taken as a respected professional, why would you enter into a dishonorable behavior? It lowers you to the wrong level.

Honor among combatants should be a given. Yes you want to eliminate the opponent, but then be man enough to know that you won and leave the rest to history. Taking photos of yourself with a dead enemy and and in a dishonorable fashion only fuels the pacifists point of view.

Hey thats my opinion and not meant as a flame to anyone. The whole thing was just bugging me and I had to rant for a sec.


Mark <>
Upstate central, NY, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 15:44:06 (ZULU)

Mike D,

Re; 168 anything at 1k in a 308.

Easy to do if you understand the rules.

First, no Fed GM168, it's good to 800-850 yards then goes unstable.

2nd, barrel needs to be 1:10 twist, rotational stability counts and you need the rpm on the bullet.

Velocities of about 2650-2700 fps are needed, regardless of bullet weight, the exception being the Amax thing, which will do just fine at 2600fps, at least on my measured  1014 yard line.

The Sierra is the least accurate of the lot, followed by the J4, then the 168 Combined technologies which is really good, best is the Amax.

We have one shooter using Sierra's from a 20 inch tube, but he's night blind from the flash.

I'm done.


Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 15:48:20 (ZULU)

Concerning 308 Loads at 1000 Yards***

Mike in Texas and Chris;  Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions.  I really appreciate the information you shared with me.  I will be using a 10-twist barrel so, I guess stability and performance would optimized, particularly if I use 175 grain Black Hills or similar ammo.  I you like, I will post results of this experience when I return from the trip.  Thanks again for your help.

Mike D <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
Palm Harbor, Florida, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 16:31:25 (ZULU)

BMG Mike...

" Edited cuz I got nothing to say.


Isn't that sort of like the printer's oxymoron: "This page left intentionally blank."


Well... I thought I had somthing to say, but I really didn't, so I didn't say anything except that I didn't have anything to say...

... did you get that??  I didn't!


CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 17:11:22 (ZULU)

OK guys, here's one for your collective memories:  A few months ago someone on the Roster mentioned an outfit that will make custom elevation turrets for the Leupold M3.  I have an Iron Brigade Armory 30-06 (just old fashioned I guess...that and I've been loading for one '06 or another for 40 years) that shoots 185 Berger VLD's like a "houseafire" (as an old Virginia friend usta say).

I'm getting out to 1000 yds with it, and it seems to follow the 300 Win. turret markings fairly well...but they're in meters, and I'm too old to convert.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, by the way, if you're looking for someplace "away from it all", consider my neck of the woods.  We're a town of 3000 folks in an 8000 square mile county, 75% of which is public land...and Thunder Ranch is building a new facility right here.

Downside is that its at least 100 miles to another larger town, 180 miles to Bend or Medford and 225 to Reno.... 'bout as far from "0" as you can get and still have a Safeway.


Steve <>
Lakeview, Or, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 17:33:13 (ZULU)

If memory serves me correctly it seems there was a thread some time ago about some 155 grain bullets for the .308.  Can these stay supersonic to 1000 yards?  Has anybody developed a load for this?  Just curious.


Turbine <>
Tega Cay, SC, USA - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 17:42:44 (ZULU)

Hey 'Lito,

You've got mail.  I sent the same one earlier, but mebbe you deleted it when you didn't recognize the addy.  Either that or I'm being a pain in your ass ;))).



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 19:26:38 (ZULU)


Custom Turrets available from:

Armament Technologies



Kenton Industries

(805) 531-1018

Turret labels from:

Turret Tagz

(859) 231-3813

They offer white or florescent tape covers for the turrets

Found the CZ and let it pass.  I think I can do better than 320+ tax+ TBI fee.  Also passed on a nice (italian made) Sharps 1874 45/70 with 28" barrel and creedmore sights for $525 and a late 70's Marlin 1894 carbine (20" barrel) in 444mag for $350.  It was a good day to buy,, I just wasn't in the mood.  Guess I gotta turn in my "gunslut trainee" badge now...

I'm already regretting letting the 45/70 go....


(editted because not only can I not spell, I get my dates mixed up too)

Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 10, 2002, at 21:45:19 (ZULU)

WARNING: Pistol Country

At the range today I had trouble focusing on the front sight with both eyes open.  Last time I qualled I was doing "eye sprints" between the site and target.  Today I found if I closed my weak eye I didn't have the problem.  Anybody have a suggestion how to keep both eyes open without losing focus?  "Just do it" wasn't cutting it today.


Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 01:04:16 (ZULU)

Nasty COLT A2 HBAR jam with Winchester Mil-ball that FUBAR'ed rifle.

Round popped up out of the magazine (rock solid Brit mag that works with anything) and instead of feeding, the base went OVER the bolt.  The bolt cycled forward jamming the base of the round between the top of the bolt and the inside top of the receiver!  Bolt would not go back or forward and tip of round was stuck just above gas tube...

Popped both pins (to get some looseness into action) and jacked bolt back.  Then I used a thin serrated needle nose (I'll never be without one again) to pull the bullet and pour out the powder etc.  I then had enough room and leverage on the case to jack the bolt back a bit and pull the really mangled case out with locking pliers.

Now Receiver and Bolt appear undamaged and rifle cycles well...magazine appears undamaged and also cycles Win-ball and two other kinds of ammo well...(and also worked well in a A2 shorty when we checked it later)

Any ideas on what would cause this?  Just bad luck?  What?

Rifle was working well, clean, and hot (just finished a string)


Dennis Hill <>
Henderson, NV, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 01:18:55 (ZULU)

Saw some chatter on my barrels so thought I would stick my head in.

Making a run of M24's right now, a few hundred of them.  Have Palmas and MTU profiles in stock, as well as 6.5 and 6mm's for the varmint hunters.  If you saw the graphite wrapped barrels at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree, those were shooting in the 'teens!.

Most respectfully,

Mike Rock


Mike Rock <>
Albany, WI, USA! - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 02:24:58 (ZULU)

Mike Rock Barrels***

Anyone out there with experience using Mike Rock's barrels, particularly in 11.27 twist? What would be the optimum factory load for this twist (out to 700-100- yds)? I am having a Rem. 700 built around this barrel and, I'm anxious to see how it shoots.  Although I am still waiting to send some rounds down this tube, I can personally attest to Mike's willingness to "back his product up". E-Mail me if you would like to know details of why I think he is a "stand-up guy". Also, I know Mike also has several barrels ready for delivery right now. He can be reached at:  Thanks for any input you may be able to give me.  

Mike D. <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 02:57:33 (ZULU)

Mike D.

I have a bunch of rifles with Mike's barrels on them that George (GA Precision) made up for me. Fantastic product and great guys. I suggect that you give George a call for additional specifics.

Michael <>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 03:58:21 (ZULU)

Dennis Hill.....

               You mentioned Winchester mil-ball ammo in your post about the jam in your AR. Was it Q3131? I don't want to start a rumor that I can't substantiate, but I seem to remember reports of a defective bunch of this stuff a while back. Can't for the life of me remember the details. You might want to check with the mfg. or go to one of the AR-15 sites for more info.


             Palma (155gr.) loads? Start with a 30" to 34" barrel with about a 1:13 twist and a Palma '95 chamber. When you've got that done you can start working up a supersonic 1,000yd. load!

hth,  ALAN

Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 04:17:02 (ZULU)

Black Hills 168gr Match Molley Coated

Does anyone have any experience with this stuff?  I've Been using Fedral Gold Match and am currious as to how the Blacks Hills ammo matches up.  I bought a box, which cost a lot less than the fedral, and will be running in through the rifle tomorrow.  Also, what bullet do they use?


Scott Chapman <>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 04:25:08 (ZULU)

right on the money, Q3131 on the side of the box

We bought a case about 2 years ago and stored it away.  It works well ok bolt guns. When we tried to use it in the HBAR today...(you saw the result)  After my last post the AR Shorty also did not like it.

I still have most of a case...any ideas?

dennis hill <>
henderson, nv, usa - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 05:32:42 (ZULU)

Sell the ammo to me at a huge loss and I will put it to good use. :)

Scott Chapman <>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 05:48:52 (ZULU)


I'm going to check with Olin or Winchester...



Dennis Hill <>
Henderson, nv, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 07:02:01 (ZULU)


Uh huh...This stuff is junk.  I e-mailed Olin just now and when (not if) they ignore me this situation will give me an excuse to get another contender and shoot this stuff up...

Dennis Hill <>
Henderson, NV, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 07:25:40 (ZULU)

Hey "Aluminum Saxaphone"...

Nag, Nag... I answered your e-mail ;)

You owe me 17 Coors ;)



>"I'm getting out to 1000 yds with it, and it seems to follow the 300 Win. turret markings fairly well...but they're in meters, and I'm too old to convert."<

I don't understand... if it follows the cam fairly well, who cares what the measurments are, even if they are in furlongs... by the way, if the cam is older than about 6 months, it is in YARDS (no matter what it says on the side).  The new ones say yards.  They don't have a metric cam for the 300WM.  They never did!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 11:10:03 (ZULU)

re: Savage triggers

Based on the feedback from this message board, I acquired

the SharpShooter's Supply competition version (thru Brownells) for my Savage 110.

The housing retention nut that was supplied with the kit was apparently defective, I replaced it and added a lock washer.

As detailed in the directions, I had to remove a small amount of material from the housing so that it would fit my specific receiver.

That part of the housing is intentionally oversize to permit fitting.

I did not try to fiddle with the new unit's sear engagement adjustments, just set up the overtravel and safety adjustments.

(My goal was a safe, better design trigger than the factory Savage

unit with a "reasonable" pull weight.)

I ended up with a pull weight of 1.15 Kg (2.5 lbs).

The vendor claimed nominal pull weights fall into the

range of 0.907 to 0.340 Kg (2lb to 12oz).

In use, I can feel a tiny bit of creep at the end of travel,

which in some ways makes it a bit easier to avoid jerking

the trigger at the end of the stroke.

Rod Regier <>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 14:18:13 (ZULU)


I sent you an email about a T-shirt I bought for you. Did you get it? I guess I should've mentioned it on the DR, given all the games goin on. It's a nice "kitty" shirt. Let me know if you want it.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 14:21:11 (ZULU)

On Mike Rock bbls.  I have more than a few and they all are great bbls.  Acuurate.  Slow to foul and easy to clean.

Load for the 11.25 twist?  Easy Blackhills 175's.

On Molly.  Never mind.  Wont go there.  Dead horse.  Cover them bullets with chicken crap if it makes you feel better.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 15:34:42 (ZULU)


"Aluminum Saxophone?!!", that's a low "blow"  HA! Just made myself a funny.  Anyway thanks for the info/advice.  It's purty much what I figgered, it's just good to get second opinions.  I might have a trade worked out, but nothing's final.

Thanks man,


Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 16:49:03 (ZULU)

What is the BC of a 175 SMK coated in chicken crap?  Will it still be supersonic at 1k?


Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 17:12:49 (ZULU)

Mark, (beowulf) et. al.

M/Cpl Aaron Perry - the Cdn Sniper from 3rd BN PPLCI (the one you mentioned) is more in shit more because he told a Padre (Chaplain) to fuck off than anything else.

At their OP there was a dead Tali and a sign was written on it "FUCK TERRORISM".

M/CPL Perry had already been recommened by US forces for the BSV for his action in theatre.

The Padre approached and commented on the sign on the body.

Aaron (from my understanding) then said "Fuck off"

He was then sent home from A'stan, and has been sitting around here, awaitimg his fate.

From my shoes - nothing he has done is wrong. And yes HE IS GETTING THE SHITTY END OF THE STICK - As the CF appears willign to hanging him out for fear of looking like it is covering up something (circa Somalia March 93)

If this was a peacetime drill - yeah telling a Capt (regardless of trade) to F off would be wrong - but it was not a peacetime trg ex...

Take Everything in context before you pass sentence.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
CFB Edmonton, Alberta, Canada - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 17:27:41 (ZULU)


 I just got some info(little) on the thought of the disease as it relates to Alabama. They sent a new hunting guide that has some info in it. I'll just have to keep asking. All I want to know is if any related cases have been found here and are there any symptoms to look for.

 The legislature raised the fine on importation of live deer into Alabama. The new fine is $5,000. They cite CWD and bovine tuberculosis to be of concern. At least somebody in Montgomery is thinking about it.

Savage triggers;

  Any trigger is an improvement over the factory crap! I love my 10FP but the trigger sucked.

                       LATER  Y'ALL


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 18:11:06 (ZULU)

Win-ball junk update:

Took un-FUBAR'ed HBAR out today and left Win-ball home.

Used every type of ammo that I had...Wolf 62 grain, two types of reloads, Federal cheap stuff and Ultramax.

Used the same mag time after time and and it worked like a champ even though it is hotter than hell here in Southern Nevada.  Gun too hot to touch and still worked great even with the Wolf lacquer'ed ammo.

Didn't have one bobble, yesterday's problem definitely an ammunition problem

E-mailed Olin off their website and got a note from them that they will reply on Monday...

Dennis Hill <>
Henderson, nv, usa - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 19:55:59 (ZULU)

Hi all, been a while since i posted.

Been out hunting again with the great big White hunter himself, Pete Lincoln. After the boar hunt from last week i really got the hunting virus aswell. Been going with 2 dutch guys and a German fella to Scotland with Pete and it must be one of the best places on Earth to Hunt. We had a very great time.

Bloody big mountains over there, and since my feet are still sore it feels like i have stalked over a 100 miles in 6 days.

We shot about 20 roe deer, 2 foxes and Pete also shot 2 red deers.

Only the German had a regular hunting rifle, the rest of us had all sniper rifles. I used my Sako TRG22, the others used a Sako TRG21, a Steyer SSG and Pete used his little shitty air rifle, a remington 700 with a Heym barrel of 20 inches and one of those pispour S&B PMII scopes...;)

Must admit, the bugger knows his shit about hunting, he got 7 roe's and 2 stags and o yeah, he also "shot" 5 rabbits with a new kind of rifle, its called a Volkswagen...I "only" got 4 roe's, but not bad for a first time, nice trofees. If i had my shit togehter i could have had me 9 of them, but stalking deer is a bit different than stalking humans with blanks...

I learned a lot though, hunting is a good way of training sniper skills, for instance, i personally learned i need to train more on offhand shooting, cause i am a pispour shot at short distances...i winged a buck at 40 yards...he took of for 300 yards with a broken leg, i followed it and suddenly ran in to him at 6 yards and shot him in the neck...felt lousy about the first shot. The other 3 i got nice and clean, shot one at 140 yards at an 30 degree angle downwards, right behind the shoulder, it dropped like a stone. The other 2 bucks i shot at 200 yards, one of them acros a valley, from one mountain to the other, and i learned another thing that day...don't shoot animals that are on another mountain, cause no-one else is gonna fetch it for you, had to walk all the way down, up the other mountain again, put the deer on my back and all the way down again...Those Hornady 165 grains SST's are pretty amazing, very accurate and good knockdown power.

And my ranging skills can use some training, mildots or not, was lucky that i brought along a LRF, but it kinda makes you lazy, cause it is so easy with those LRF's.

O, and i got to meet yet another Rosterfarian, Jon Beardsley. He visited us the last 2 days, a damn decent bloke and also a great hunter like Pete, only smarter, cause he has a decent scope on his stick, just like me a Nightforce NXS, instead of those S&B wanna-be scopes...;)

He brought along his Remington rifle done by Tooley, monster of a beast in 300 Winmag. Jon used the Nosler Ballistic tips, even better bullets, he shot a monster of a buck (really, really, really big one, with a biggest trofee i ever saw, must have been a silver medal at with that 300 winmag right between the eyes, the head looked like Roger Rabbit after seeing that babe with big boobs for the first time...eyes popped out!

Discovered another thing, i need longer Harris bipods, cause the standerd one's are way to short and i am gonna sell my Harris BR ones aswell, no longer a need for short ones. Specially if your laying down between heather or bracken...9 out of 10 times i could not see the target because my rifle sunk inbetween the vegetagions. Pete had those big Harris ones, those you can shoot also sitting from, gonna get me a pair of those. And i liked the handle Jon had on his Swivel bipods, alot easyer than the standerd knob.

Last thing i learned, i got to much kit! All you really need is your rifle, a good binocular, a camelbag, the Leica LRF 1200 and a freekin sharp knife with a rubber handle and some rope. But must admit, my Spotting scope got some real good use, and the sniper saddle tripod Pete had made got used alot by me aswell.

In all, i had a bloody great time, and i am defeneatly gonna be doing alot more hunting with these blokes!

O, almost forgot, on the way back on the boat to the Netherlands, Pete and i caught another few trofee's in the disco onboard and yet again he beats me, even though i caught 2 trofees, his trofee was bigger than the both of mine but this time i did not mind to loose...mine were slim, white, under 20 and damned goodlookin...his was black, huge, and must have weighed a ton, hehehe. But she danced ok...and for a "vetsack" ol'Pete still can move his feet pretty well on the dance floor!

Cya around,


Marco <>
NL - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 20:49:39 (ZULU)

Just got back from taking the kids to Yellowstone and read the responses to my post about Israel's new anti-suicide-bomber strategy.

Bomb Mecca?  Destroy 40% of the world's oil production?  

Hey kids, let's incite holy war with a billion people, absolutely isolate ourselves politically, diplomatically and militarily, turn over all domestic political power to the Democrats and start the worst depression in history all in one bold motion.


That would never have occurred to me.  Not while I was sober, anyway.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 21:27:57 (ZULU)

Aw CDC...

You're just a party pooper, and don't know how to have a good time with 40 bombers on a Saturday night!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, August 11, 2002, at 22:45:41 (ZULU)

Hey Mike!

Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 01:01:46 (ZULU)

RE; Mike Rock Barrels

To Mike Miller and Michael...Thanks for responding to my post.  I very much appreciate your input.  Mike, I have been following your postings on the Roster, along with the other regular contributors as well.  I have benefitted greatly from everyone's ideas and experiences.  Based on your recommendation, as well as some others, I will be using Black Hills 175 Gr. loads on my upcoming training cycle.  We will be shooting out to 1,000 yards and, I will have a chance to wring-out my rifle using these rounds. I have heard nothing but great things about  Mike's Barrels and, he has proven to be a guy who really cares about putting out the very best product he can. Thanks again.    Mike D  

Mike D <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 01:39:04 (ZULU)

Just got back from several lovly days at Williamsburg VA.  Go there every so often, usually twice a year.  Love the area and has more to do then anyone can believe.  Was able to have my 30 something daughter and 20 something son with me and wife.  Good reminder of what liberty is all about, family and the "early years".

Joe mentioned the peace dividend.  Has anyone also noticed how the LEA noticed it as well.  No metter how much crime dropped they hyped how bad the lawlessness was so they didn't get hit by the same dividend.  No slam on the LEAs, my daughter are one.  But a slam on the brain dead liberals that no not what they do and could care less.

BRogers and Catplugger, what is with the edited stuff.  How can I argue when you won;t give me soemthing to argue about?  :-)

Well simple postings from a simple guy.  Got new students next week and it is back to all day on the range in 90 to 100 + temps.  Love it!

Hold hard guys, Oh yeah hey Mike Rock, what was the original twist you put in the M24 barrels?  Inquiring minds want to know.  :-)


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, US of A - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 02:09:05 (ZULU)


It's the 'yote Bate's fault... he made me do it ;))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 02:25:12 (ZULU)

Rickster; I was goin in the bush  a while, decided to delete recent stuff to avoid questions and unneeded posts to shorten roster reading time. If I delete my BS the roster is much shorter.

Brogers < >
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 02:43:54 (ZULU)


Announcing the return to the DR of the nanny of the net, the conscience of the community, the pacer of the pundits, the keeper of conventional wisdom, the confidant of the columnists.

Right here folks, on this Roster, right before your very eyes, you will be treated to dazzling displays of superior intellect, lectures in the art of playing-it-safe while disguising your true sympathies, and most importantly, the age-old secret showing how to foist your opinions upon the masses while slighting the opinions of others!

Let's just keep on sitting on the lid of this powderkeg that's quickly approaching critical temperature, keeping our eyes shut tight and our fingers crossed, all the while praying that the politicians and the pundits will make it all better.

Or should we try and get it all over with quickly, knowing that it's not going to improve by keeping the status quo. You never gain much out of life without bleeding a bit first. Oh, I almost forgot to say except for those hiding in the Universities. They never sacrifice a f***ing thing, and they never seem to bleed.

Take my advice folks, do it now or BOHICA later. Once you pickled off your first MER load of Mk117's, all the others are easy, trust me!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 04:10:44 (ZULU)


You have mail. No attachments.


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 11:19:03 (ZULU)

Hey ALAN...

I know it's early in the morning, and I haven't had any food yet, and Ruggus Rattus is hiding somewhere, cuz he doesn't want to go to day-camp... so I'm not too bright this morning...

...but could you explain??  That went over my head.


Youz bumz that are going down to the SMTC match in Oct... watch out for that Ken Rascal... he has a NEW stick that is a whole can of whoop-ass!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 11:35:09 (ZULU)


What are the details of the SMTC match in Oct. Open to civilian shooters, etc.?


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 13:32:43 (ZULU)

I'm not clear on Zulu time.  Is 04:10:44 right after the bars close in  Palisade, Colorado?

CDC' <>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 13:46:13 (ZULU)


 I'm thinking of putting a VXII 3-9x tactical on the spare stealth 223...saves a buck or two.  My reasoning is the dots will be familiar with the M3LR scopes on my .308s.  Am I on track here, or is there a difference between the designs that will complicate my life?  (The other 223 has a VXII 4-12 for wife's use).  Thoughts?  I just bought some rocks and minerals for the anniversery, so my discretionary cash is at ebb-tide.  I could always put gen-II in all of 'em someday too.

(Edit:  I already know about the 1/4 minute adjustments!)

On Bedding:

 I have read here of folks bedding HS precision stocks.  My question is where?  How?  Mine seems to fit very tightly, and the aluminum chassis is doing it's job OK.  With wood, I understand the principal--and relieving space for the bedding compound is straight-forward.  But synthetics?  I am ignorant of the techniques!  Just a dumb question from a non-'smith.  I used to just shoot 'em while someone else workie them!!!  Now, I'm playing catch-up on the maintenance side.

  I observed a USMC Detachment (tanker-types) shooting at Knox.  I will only say that at least one service still takes small arms proficiency seriously!  As I alluded to in an earlier post--the Army tiers our weapons training--some get more than most; but the Corps seems to hold one standard for all.  I was impressed...and the Army needs to re-think the differing standards.  The question should be, "wanna save money or lives?" and go from there, eh?  



Joe Mahon <>
Home , at last, long roadtrip - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 13:55:16 (ZULU)


Just ran in from the pistol range where I am zeroing my M4 with Elcan.  At 50 yards with 55gr ball the thing is shooting .5 inch.  Had to grab some 69gr BTHP handloads.  Back to the range!!

Love this Elcan.  Fits real nice just forward or my ARMS folding rear sight.


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:02:27 (ZULU)

Bushmaster M4 aint no sniper rifle but with those 69 gr handloads she's sub moa at 50 no fliers out of 10 rounds anyway.

If you aint tried an Elcan you should.  Love it.

Out here

Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:26:04 (ZULU)


It's open to anybody that has $125, and a stick... you can even leave the stick at home, and go watch the other guys shoot...

... but that like looking through the window a a cat house... not near as much fun!


CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:34:05 (ZULU)

Pretty disapointed, I thought we had learned how to have a diff of opinion without personal insults. Maybe it is a Monday thing?

Joe, email coming on an appointment with the recruiters for my son and bedding techniques from a well repsected gunsmith.

    Out of here.  Bill

Bill Moore <>
Goodview, VA, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 15:42:23 (ZULU)

Don't sweat it, Bill...

I'll go play someplace else for a while, 'til tempers cool down.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 16:10:01 (ZULU)

M/CPL Perry.

I responded to the WTC incident on Sept 11, 2001.  My experience was very tame compared to some of my peers, but I am still left with an image that will never go away.  Thousands of innocents killed, some of the best, bravest firefighters, police officers, EMS workers, and civilians with a bent to help others were crushed and twisted into fragments of flesh strewn for city blocks in all directions. Women, children, fathers, mothers....all dead, ripped to tiny pieces. If you haven't seen it, you cannot fathom what it was like...there is a smell, a taste, a permanant impression made that remains with you... it's not like TV, this is real, it changes the way you think.

As an American citizen, I unconditionally support any and all Canadian military personnel that assisted in the response to this attack.  War is a good place to send the politically correct, they either pull their heads from their asses or die... it is a crime that M/CPL Perry has to carry more than his fair share of the burden of freedom. I say give him a medal, a pay raise and a promotion and let him teach the next generation of fighters how to kill.. (That would be "kill" in the "bad" sense of the word, generally considered worse than "upset" as in "upset the terrorist's sensibilities")

Marco - I may take those worthless 6-9" Harris BR-S bipods off your hands...let me know what you want for em'.

Steve - I have a brother living in Cave Junction, OR...nice country if you don't mind wildfires with 5 mile long fronts traveling at 20 MPH with flames 40 feet in the air.... you forgot to mention that charming little feature.

kinder, gentler Lito' AND Yote bait?????  HUH????  What?  Are you kidding me?

Jim Mitchell <>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 16:32:46 (ZULU)

Rambosky to Sweepman;

Come in Sweepman - Do you copy, over....

Chris:  I spent most of Saturday morning turning down my "new" Rem GMM unprimed .308 brass to 2.005".  The stuff was all over the place.  My right arm is now bigger than my left.  I didn't know this re-loading stuff was work.  Never made it to the range.  I'll e-mail you at work some other "observations" I had.

Jim Mitchell - Ground Zero.  

I've been trying to get my parents, sister and brothers to move from NJ to NC.  I keep telling them that we have lots of land, rifle ranges, forests, good hunting, fishing,  mountains, nice beaches.  But I do have two nuclear power plants on either side of me.  One just outside of Charlotte, NC and the other near Greenville.  Maybe thats why they haven't moved yet.  Ya reckon?

Alan says:  "Losing the war in Vietnam couldn't happen."

We lost the war in Vietnam???  But...we were winning when I left! {;-)

Just thought I'd drop in and see what's going on.  Same ol'good stuff. Guns, shooting, hunting, politics, corn flake pissing.

Rambosky - Over..............

Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 16:59:12 (ZULU)

'lito, you have mail. No attachments.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 17:01:21 (ZULU)

I probably started this.  Just put me down for NOT destroying Islam's holy sites, NOT targeting bombs on noncombatants and NOT eliminating 40% of the world's oil production.  

This looks more realistic:  

Call me overcautious and move on to better things.

CDC' <>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 17:07:59 (ZULU)

CALIFORNIA ROSTERIANS  There was a house bill sponsored that was going to tax every cartridge sold. I need to find that proposed legisation. Any help will be greatly appreciated Thanks Gary Kaney

Gary Kaney <>
Lena, Ill, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 17:14:17 (ZULU)

Bill and 'lito-I guess I need to start reading this stuff with both eyes open.  Did I miss an issue or personal attack?  'lito-is there really a better place to play?

Match at STORM MOUNTAIN-- I spoke with my "neighbor" Rod Ryann this morning about Match sign-up and he indicated that ALL entries MUST be post marked today, August 12 to be considered.  So if you want to shoot you better get to the PO.  The match is open to anyone with $125 and a stick as 'lito said. Rod indicated that the firm deadline was based on having enough food and trophies.  I guess even after 25 years I don't fully appreciate what a second tier , backwater state West Virginia really is!


rod hansen <>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:01:30 (ZULU)

CDC, Yea, I'm with you on that one.

On a lighter note, Marius tells me he's about to post my review of the Leica LRF800 and 1200 rangefinders. It includes some pics through the rangefinder which some of you might find useful if you are thinking of buying one. Have ranged over 1000m hand held with it. Since the review I've finally managed to use it in fairly heavy rain and it worked great to 500 meters (550 yards to most of you). That was as far as I could see due to being surrounded by trees and in a hollow so I don't know how much farther it would go. I keep meaning to take it out in the rain to see just how far it will go, but somehow when it starts raining I get less curious...;-)

Mark D

Mark D <>
London, UK - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:04:17 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney

Go here for a brief description:

Go here for the actual legislation and bill history:

Greg G

Greg Ghironzi <>
- Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:05:36 (ZULU)


Guess I'll go watch. Don't even have an entry form to get in to the P.O. today. The last match in WV was a "shoot" only, no observers, hell, wouldn't even let me help herd the goats. If there's a list, or announcement board or sumpin', I'm missing it. I would enjoy the learning experience, if nothin' else, of any match within 5-600 miles of home. I'm goin to AEDC and meet Fatboy on 8/25. Try the 308 at 1000 yards. That'll be a first in that caliber for me. Takin' a couple deputies to the match to try their hand at somethin besides 9mm. This oughta be a hoot. Your parcel is on the way, priority mail.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 18:55:53 (ZULU)


 Give Rod a call and see if he'll take a late check.


 The more shooters the better....besides these shoots are a great social events (there's going to be a pig roast).


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 19:06:20 (ZULU)


>"'lito-is there really a better place to play? "<

NO! This the place, the ONLY place, there is no OTHER place to play... well, maybe "Big Momma Jolean's" down by the river... but that's different ;))



Lookin' forward to it... I will wear it with Kat Pride;))

Also... what Kevin (Andy's Dad) said.  Call Rod at SMTC, and ask him if you can Priority Mail the check... he's a pretty good guy, and may cut you some rythym on the date.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 19:36:44 (ZULU)


Went to the range yesterday (Sunday) nice morning kinda overcast.  As the sun broke through, the mirage came up so per the listings here, I dialed down on the power to cut through but then I noticed that as I dialed down from 16x to 10x I could very noticeably see that my heartbeat/pulse translate into my reticle.  Am I alone in this or is there a tech. to compensate?????

As for range time, I'm glad that the Active component gets to shoot and scoot.  I've spent many years here at Ligget baking, boiling and burning waiting to go down range and being denied the range time 'cause the tree huggers would not allow us to move our tanks 'cause we'd disturb the "Kit fox" while it was mating.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't want a 60 ton tank busting caps over my head while I was trying to get my groove on either =)




daniel flores <>
salinas, ca, usa - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 20:49:23 (ZULU)

SMTC…….If there's a list, or announcement board or sumpin', I'm missing it………..I agree with John, I missed it too.  But also just spend all my cash.  SOL all around.

By the way there is an Any Rifle – Any Sight match on Sunday, September 8, 2002, at Bridgeville Rifle club in Bridgeville Delaware.  Shoot 20 shots at 600 yards with 2 sighters.  You can shoot it F-class for practice.

The range is easy to find here is the link


Jerry M <>
Baltimore, Maryland, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 21:22:24 (ZULU)


Check your e-mail re 1000 yarder on 8/25


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 21:54:44 (ZULU)


 Is the deer hunting event still planned? I haved clicked the link on your site and sent requests for some info. I haven't gotten anything yet. Maybe my messages ain't going through.

 Could you please send me some information if you have any? Also, how much of a trip is it from the Mobile area?


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 22:31:04 (ZULU)

Daniel (Jedi),

 DAT or CDAT or Super-DAT is now Jedi?  Must be an A2 thing!  As a grunt, I only used those terms in the NCO club to get a little action going if the ladies were in short supply! Dem Tankers always rose to the bait!!!  Never used the term otherwise though.  Unless they broke out with "crunchies" or something!  Ha!  DAT or crunchy beats being "quartermaster" any day though, eh?


Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, US - Monday, August 12, 2002, at 23:15:16 (ZULU)

Yeah Joe

Way back when I was much younger, went from being an MP in the regs. and jumped into the old M48 Patton tank.

DAT (for those who don't know) = Dumb Ass Tanker.  

Transitioned into the M60A3 and became a COMPUTERIZED Dumb Ass Tanker.  Only got as far as the M1IP but still earned the Grand Pubah of all Pubahs JEDI.  And the heavens parted and the angels sang.  Too old to tank anymore so I want to get into the Long Range Rifle.  However, if repetition is the mother of all learning, I don't want to keep repeating mistakes so I came to the place where knowledge and experience seem to abound.  If I can pick anything up it will be greatly appreciated.

daniel <>
Salinas, ca, usa - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 00:17:21 (ZULU)

Quick show of hands!!!Police marksman magazine doesnt think LE guys use mildot reticles!!!!!

How many LE snipers use mildot reticle scopes???


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 01:10:45 (ZULU)

Shooting festival is being rehashed down to 1 day, the 28th of Sept.  Bring your gun and bullets and have fun.


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 01:14:36 (ZULU)

Ref: LEO use of Mil-Dots

 Gooch, very few LEOs use Mil-Dot reticles in my neck of the woods.  I'm connected with a couple of the local SWAT organizations and their response is, "We don't need 'em 'cause we only shoot 100 yards."  The average level of equipment sophistication in this area is only slightly better than what you can buy at Wal-Mart.

 It isn't all the operators.  The budgeting people and the higher level administrative types don't even like the idea of SWAT so it's kind of a "red headed step child" until there's trouble.

 Sadly, the idea of LEO snipers only shooting 100 yards is intrenched and some "sniper" training organizations reinforce the notion.  I've been to big name LE schools where the subject of range estimation and mil-dots together get less than an hour of classroom time and then the wrong formulas are given.  When I quietly told the instructors after class they responded, "We'll have to check on that." while rolling their eyes with that, "You're only a civilian what could you possibly know about sniping?"

 There will be no joy in saying, "I told you so." when some criminal that's been to Quantico or Stone Bay dominates a situation in a jurisdiction where SWAT snipers "only shoot 100 yards".


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 02:20:24 (ZULU)


"MIL dots is for Military"

IF they was for LE they would be called.


Let us pray!

The Lord is my Sheperd and so is my scope.

It maketh me to hunker down in green pastures.

It showeth me the right path through one small hole.

Surely ridicule will fall upon my reticle,

until I seek to use the mighty football !


Speakin of criminals that's been to Quantico, where IS Rick tonight.

I need him to read some more scripture.

See why I delete my posts! :).....

Brogers < >
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 03:34:48 (ZULU)

'yote Bate...

You cracketh me up... you do it more better than anyone ;))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 04:05:56 (ZULU)

Kevin, how I wish you wre wrong, but alas old friend you are completely correct.  Out here its up to about 40 percent of LE have the dots but of that only 25% of the ones who have the Mildots know how to use them.

I have heard the same things from LE and Military guys that poo poo civies for shooting.  The they ask how I became a fair shot and I reply that the civies taught me.  Look out for a guy who spends every week end shooting his HP weapon and loads his own. Give him some 8541 skills and we LE are in a hell of a bind.



Mike Miller <>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 04:48:06 (ZULU)

Does anyone have an AMAX load in 300WM. I have been shooting alot of MK's mostly 190gr - some 168's. Any Ideas would be great. Thanks Guys...

Steve VanSlyke <>
Republic, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 05:10:03 (ZULU)


RE: Mildots for LE

I do not use Mildots on my dept. issued rifle, not cause I didn't want em but because the bean counters didn't want to spend the extra dollars so I'm stuck with a leupold 3x9x40 tactical with a duplex reticle and had to talk my ass off to get them to spend the money on that. I use my own laser range finder and have my come-ups taped to the rifle stock. I guess I do the best I can with what I got. The only redeeming thing is that I have a generous ammo budget so I get to shoot as much as I want. I have heard all the reasons why LE snipers only need to train out to 100 yards cause the average shot for us LE snipers is only about 75 yards. IMHO this is a bunch of crap so I shoot out to 600 yards with the departments 308 and out to 1000 with my own 300WM. Statistically I may never need to shoot past 100 yards but I know damn well that if I am ever confronted with a situation where a longer shot is needed I've practiced it and I can do it.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 05:23:46 (ZULU)


I have loaded up some 178s, but havent shot them as yet.  I am trying to get a load that will match the come-ups for the 190 load.

Probably be a week or two before I shoot them.



>"I have heard all the reasons why LE snipers only need to train out to 100 yards cause the average shot for us LE snipers is only about 75 yards"<

I think it's bunch of crap too... a very famous shooter once said:

"I used to think 300 yards was a real tough shot, until I started shooting at 1000.  Now, 500 yards is a chip shot!"



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 11:16:17 (ZULU)

Kevin M. and 'lito

I'll call first thing this AM. I had to check in at work and missed your last post.


I tried to give our county council 50K in training funds for LE about 2 years ago. All they had to do was agree to pay the guys training pay, instead of burnin their vacation time. The deal fell thru. The county attorney supposedly nixed it. Said we don't need to send 'em to mercenary school. So now I send 'em thru the local FOP. The hell of it is, our main administrator (sheriff) has been shot in the line of duty and returned fire, and still thinks gadgets will replace training.


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 11:24:43 (ZULU)


>'Said we don't need to send 'em to mercenary school."<

This attitude is growing across the country, as towns look on LE as a money generating unit of town accessors office, that occasionally makes arrests.

In my town, their major job is writing summons'... if there is a real crime, they are nada.  I got a bullet hole through one of my windows (just behind this computer), and they couldn't even tell what direction it came from... I had to do the stick test FOR THEM!!

The local "SWAT" guys shoot at my favorite range, and they typically do 3" groups at 100 yds, and are very happy with that performance.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 11:46:27 (ZULU)


Better put that 'puter in the basement w/ the reloading bench.:)))


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:18:57 (ZULU)

So you don't need to train past 100 because the average shot is 75?

That reminds me of the economist who drowned in the lake with the average depth of 18 inches.

The mean is no problem, but the standard deviation will bite you on the ass.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:34:04 (ZULU)

>The mean is no problem, but the standard deviation will bite you on the ass.<

And it's that right hand side of the bell curve that will f*ck you in the ass!


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:48:10 (ZULU)

Cops and long shots.

Wish they would, wish they could.

Here in my part of Tx the rural guys can easily be confronted with the need for the over 100 yard shot, at ranges not unreasonable for engagement in a hostile or hostage situation.  

More importantly, the freakin wind ALWAYS blows here ( we figure it's because Okla sucks....but that's anecdotal)and shooting distance can be a real chore.

Training several local LE units, and groups of swat types, even the big city guys, we've found that it's nearly impossible in a full week evolution to get these people further back than 300 yards.  They simply cannot absorb the instruction, or refuse to.  2MOA 300 yard groups are bragging rights to these people, and that is of great concern.  Practice is not part of the vocabulary, and God forbid handloads should be discussed.

Skills past tirgger pulling are not highly valued, outside of 5 very good LE shooters I know in an area populated by 4 million people.  

I've had the local SD guys tell me " Mr. McDonald, when we come into your neighborhood, we always leave a deputy up on the hill over there with a Mini-14".

So I ask " does he know it's 478 yards from my door to his shiney white hiney?"

We did spend an hour going over range card principals after that.

Maybe there is hope after all.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 12:54:58 (ZULU)

Almighty Ultra, forgive the heathan, Bill(y Bob Jim Boy) Rogers also known as 'Yote Bait, for he knows not whatith he transgresses.  :-)

Criminal?  Hey man, don't mix me up with those jarheads!  Never went to Q' town's school for thugs.  Just an old army puke.  :-)

I have been told that if you tell a lie long enough then it becomes the "truth".  The average LE sniper shot is (fill in the blank). Actually the average LE sniper shot is not known for any given area. If you have air ports, strip malls, factory areas, etc, then you had better plan on that shot and not the average (fill in the blank)shot.  Mil Dots can do so much more then just ranging and seem to be a minor aid in shooting movers, holding for winds, snap shoots, etc.  Oh well, talking shooting to non-shooting admins can, as all of you know, be an exercise in patience and stress.  We just keep chipping away at them and let them know of the possible liability of not having the correct equipment and training to function on an acceptable level of expertise.  Hell it is worth a try, this puts the bean counters back on the defensive and having to justify NOT spending the money.

Kevin (Andy's Dad) - As you saw from some of the talks at the MD symposium, many ofhte so called experts have problems keeping the facts straight.  The idea is to convince the others that you, the instructor, knows more and has the correct information.  It may not be true but perception is 90 per cent of the game.  That is why, once writen down in a book, many authors are not willing to back off of a stupid statement because it ruins that perception.

An interesting thought that I wish I had made up but did not.  There is a gap between knowledge and skill.  That gap is filled by experience through practice and training.  Having knowledge of a task is not the same as performing.  Having knoweldge of making a 75 yard head shot is not the same as making a 500 yard chest shot.  Wind moves bullets, sometimes a little sometimes alot!

OK enough of my BS will end it now and give Bill a chance to throw bombs my direction.

Hold Hard Guys!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 13:16:03 (ZULU)

K. Mussack,

You have mail. No attachments.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 13:58:10 (ZULU)

Understanding the terrorists' goals is the key to defeating them.  This is very good, very long, very important and somewhat abstract.  It's not for the "nuke 'em all" crowd.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 14:22:18 (ZULU)


Man, that guy can ramble around a subject forever... does the WSJ pay by the word?  Even though I knew where he was going, I just quit after about 2/3rds.

But I do think he's right in most, if not all of what he is presenting, and it is probably why we are already bogged down after less than a year.

This is going to be a LOoooong war.


This is a very good (and FAST) read... worth it.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:01:02 (ZULU)

Regarding the upcoming Storm Mountain Gunn'n, Funn'n & Pig Roast event, for those of you bumz unaware of it, Mr Ryan is opening a southern facility for those of us to cheap to fly to WV.  Classes are scheduled to commence in February 2003.  Sounds like year round fun soon!

Moe  (West Virginia)  (Mississippi)

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:08:21 (ZULU)

The good thing about being old is that you can pretend to get things confused and nobody knows the truth. Now if I had called a Jarhead, Army... that would have drawn fierce reprisal (kABARS)but I'm glad you are understanding Army of one....Rick! Sorry Guys! Wrong kind of criminal. (don't fear for me mom, he would have got me long ago but he's really a nice guy).

He's right too, that knowledge and skill thing!

I had a fella once argueing that thing with me. He thought a degree was all that was needed for success in everything. I told him.

"If you go to college and study the 1911 .45 auto and get a degree in it. You know everything there is to know about it origin, construction and maintenence and how to hold it sight it and load it.. but you never shoot it. Then you get in a gunfight with a expert marksman who's knows nothing about the 1911 but how to shoot it... what are your chances?"

Bill Rogers <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:20:18 (ZULU)

Guys I guess, twenty plus years of LE crap has left me with attitude.  I met a young officer the other day.  He was at a friends house.  He was talking like a true BTDT guy.  Probably about 26 years old.  He pulled his Remington PSS out to show it off.  Had to love the camo job.  It was nice and shinny painted tans and brown in perfect rings.  Looked like a freakin Coral Snake.  Had one of the condom like bbl covers on it.  Damm thing binded in the stock.  Had camo netting hanging from the scope and would get into the action if he had to run the bolt fast.  To top it off it had a Vortex Flash Hider drilled out for 30 cal and screweed on the end.  

I showed him my last George built rifle painted in typical ugly but if you sat it down you would lose it fashion.  He told me it was all wrong and asked me what I thought of his rifle.  Well I hate to kick puppies so I did not say anything but asked why he put the flash hider on a LE sniper rifle. His reply was "So no one sees me when I shoot"  I almost spewed right there but still did not say anything.  I could tell he really wanted me to say he was so smart but was not going to get into a pissing contest with this one.  He kept pushing sop I finally told him "You have outsmarted both the USMC and US Army.  Let me know how well it works for you"

The scope was a duplex.  He had not had any real training but man his ego told him he was better than anyone on here.  That was long but what I was thinking is it shows a mindset in LE that is all wrong.  The members want equipment to solve problems in performance.  He only knew as much as the idiot or BS artist that had his ear had told him.

What I see is lots of cool equipment. Damm I hate the color black anymore! LOts of press and not much gas in the tank.

Hard work and training are what makes a team.  Not just equipment.  I know I am probably repeating myself but twenty years ago, when I got into SWAT I had two LT's for the teams.  One was all spit and polish with great looking paper plans.  Big names and ideas.  The other was an EX RVN era SF trooper who did most of his planning for us in a sand box.  Damm that guys needed dirt to come up with a plan in. Now let me tell you the admin thought Mr. Paper was the bomb but Lt been there was the guy I quickly came to want to follow.  NO fancy this or that just do it and work as a team.  The teams back then had crummy equipment and lots of heart and drive.  Now well I am old and cant stand the new attitude and watching them try and move with 8000 lbs of gear on.

Rant off


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 15:49:13 (ZULU)

Mike - why not whack the kid's ego and see how he handles it?  This kind of stupidity existed in the 1980s... I know for sure, I was the stupid one.

The good ones recover and come back asking for knowledge.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 16:11:39 (ZULU)

Bill - Sorry man forgot, can't call Marines Jarheads.  A Jar denotes something useful, and that can be filled and hold something. :-P


Running Hard!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 16:23:32 (ZULU)

"We have to train as we fight. Simple and redundant.  Do not get caught up in the NTC-JRTC fight.  Understand that some training conditions exist that preclude "real" scenarios.  But the attitude of every leader and soldier must be going to war." SFC Matthew Eversmann


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 16:37:53 (ZULU)

Ah, but Catplugger, the article pointed the way to dealing with these deluded yo-yos.  Don't try to deal with "root causes", don't drag civilian populations into it, don't deal in any huge symbolic gestures and positively don't let them go down in a "blaze of glory".

You inflict squalid, meaningless deaths on them and make them appear ridiculous to potential recruits.  Exterminate them as if they were rats at the dump.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 17:08:55 (ZULU)


I have to agree with you. The "cool guy" factor infects a great many P.D.'s in this country. They feel they aren't a real police department unless they have a STR, ERT, SWAT etc. etc. of their very own. Mant times what you get is under-trained, over equiped, dangerous officers. The little response team in my home town was sub-par at best. But they had black nomex PJ's, MP 5's, and cool sniper rifles (even though they had not had a serious felony type violent crime as long as I can remember) The last time they called out the ERT team was for an un-armed car theif that took off on foot and was trying to hide in a drainage pond.

But, that's not to say that there are not extremely well-trained ones either, but they are few and far between.

mistah Gooch, of the LE shooters that I know, some have MD, and of those, less than half know how to use them properly. But military snipers use Mil Dots, so they have to be good!!!!!! That's the mentality

Later Dudes (and Undudes)

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 17:26:41 (ZULU)


 I love that analogy!  Degree vs. experience!  With your permission, I'd like to use a variation with my LTs that already know everything! Of three sheepskins--History comes in handy the most--if only to apply perspective to CDC's advanced thoughts...of that, Philosophy of Critical Thought was all the classroom I really needed.  I deal with newly commissioned geniuses--they know it all already.  I used to tell em to go ahead and die--cos they don't need to experience anything if they already have the answers.  I'd rather tell 'em about yer' .45 auto comparisson though--cuts right through the chase!!!  Hey--youth is wasted on the young!  

Joe (edited for spelling; I have no degree in literacy!:)

Joe Mahon <>
Lacrosse, WI , TDY as usual - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:01:52 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

"More importantly, the freakin wind ALWAYS blows here ( we figure it's because Okla sucks....but that's anecdotal)"

You mean us Okies have been wrong all this time.  We thought the wind was from all those bragging Texans.  (That too is anecdotal) :-)

HDR <>
Okla, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:07:53 (ZULU)

Jim M.,

 I was guilty of know-it-allism in the eighties too.  As with most newly graduated hard-corps killers of evil and defenders of the oppressed--hey lookie at me--I am a green felt wearin' (ok I'll stop here)--I thought the Q-course put in me on the top plane of life.  It took almost a year and one ass-whuppin from my Team SGT for me to realize that the real learning had only just begun!!!  

But it was the boot in my ass that finally woke me up.  It embarasses me to no end to look back on that year!  

Mike--You owe it to the kid to bust his bubble---he will either respond or weed out, either way, the team is better for it!!!


Joe Mahon <>
Onalaska, WI, I-git-around - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:19:41 (ZULU)


Thanks for the link. His argument is accurate, though pedantic.  Regardless, it will not be understood by a majority of Americans.  We have to trust that the 'spin-doctors' can make the the case for ensuring the war on terrorism continues.  If it takes more than a few seconds to understand or explain, most people tune out.

Shooting question: does anyone have experience with 'Corbon' ammo?

Just thinking of trying something different.........

Duman <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:39:24 (ZULU)

Education vs experience is a false choice.  The best bet is ongoing education and learning from your experience.

Trying to train a pistol shooter who tells you, "I've been doing this for thirty years" while missing consistently and keeping his finger on the trigger is futile.  Trying to explain how people actually interact in business to a newly minted MBA is just as bad.

Mike Miller learns something from every class he teaches, and he has education and experience to spare.  

There's no substitute for taking the training and there's no substitute for doing the time.  This applies to anything.

I'll shut up for a few days.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 18:53:24 (ZULU)

Jim, CDC and others, I did not embarrass the guy because he is a friend of a friend and I was at my friends home. A respect issue.  It was not a teaching exercise and this kid did not know me from Adam.  I figure I will get to know him better over time. The three of us are going to go Ground squirrel (rodents) hunting together.  I will then let my rifle speak for me and see if the kid can atleast shoot.  Over time like a virus I will infect him.LOL  Now  when he pushed on the flash hider thing I did say he had outsmarted all branches of the military with that idea in a tone which said "Stupid"

CDC, thanks for the kind words.  Hope all is well.

For the guys not knowing old Bravo is still around and doing very well.  Talked with him about two weeks ago.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 19:29:08 (ZULU)

Education, Training, Expierence:  That's a given, I agree.

But.........don't forget natural ability.  Some people can run faster, shoot straighter, think quicker, learn faster than others no matter how much education, training and expierence they get.  

Two cents if you need it or not.


Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 19:31:28 (ZULU)


About a year ago we had a domestic escalate into a hostage situation when the patrol deputy pulled into the drive and the suspect let off a round.  when I got there two city police officers were on there bellies in the front yard in the grass with ther shotguns about 30 yards from the door with no cover or concealment.  I was gillied and using topograghy to cover my approach to my hide 50 yards from the front door under a large pine tree.  I told the city guys get some cover and fall back, I guess they did not like having a lowly county deputy telling them what to do they decided to stay, and told me "we are fine if this ass hole sticks his head out we will shoot it off"  ok what ever.  they stayed until the rest of our team was in place either concealed or behinde ballistic cover, and one of ther LT's told them to leave.  negotiations went up and down he finally gave up and came out. assault team went in a cleared the rest of the house.  Our assault team leader is a rifle guy, he came out and told me this guys house was full of highpower trophies and lots of M1A's several of which were out fully loaded.  during suspect debriefing he stated "those guys in the front yard were only alive because he thought about his kids" or somthing like that.

this guy commited suicide a few weeks later with pills and vodka, hate to say it but glad he did it that way and not in a blazing gun battle that could have been really ugly!!

Also glad to see I an not the only person you has a range card of ther house and neighborhood.  what my neighbors dont know wont hurt them.

not all LEO's only shoot out to 100 yards. new guys always ask me "how can I shoot better at the 50 yard line"? same answer every time "shoot at the 100 yard line" (talkin pistols here) always get the same blank stare.  dont worry about the "sniper" who carrys a ruler to measure his groups worry about the one that carrys a dial caliper.  by the way the new stick shot a .408 thousanths 300 yard group the other day    love that new barrel.

c ya

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 19:52:54 (ZULU)


"You mean us Okies have been wrong all this time.  We thought the wind was from all those bragging Texans.  (That too is anecdotal) :-)"

Anyone knows that after the first dozen beers  we Texans tell only the truth.......we just explain it in great detail so it sounds like bragging.

BTW, what part of the Sooner state?  I still have a place on Keystone lake and down in McCurtain county.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 20:07:46 (ZULU)

Joe; feel free. It would pride me to think anyone got any good out of anything I ever said.

CDC; I don't think anyone would disagree that training helps for sure. Those who have it are experiencing the mistakes and ideas of others.

It would be a shame if the last words a gunfighter said were," I'm trained and your not!"

Bill Rogers <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 20:55:23 (ZULU)


Yup... nothing less glorious than a grubby life, and a stupid death to end the "martyr/Hero" syndrom.

Speaking of lousy countries going down the tubes... go here for some interesting news...



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:14:52 (ZULU)

Jim wrote, "Also glad to see I an not the only person you has a range card of ther house and neighborhood.  what my neighbors dont know wont hurt them."

That reminds me, I've got to have Andy mow the kill-zone.



Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:29:58 (ZULU)

The FFP for a household range card would of course be somewhere outside the home...correct Mr Mussack?  I recall a past quote, something about fixed fortifications......

Jim Mitchell <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:38:50 (ZULU)

Kevin, Jim,  only way I can say this right now.  LMAO!  Now time to clena the Pepsi off the key board.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 21:51:43 (ZULU)

Ya'll gonna start bashing those poor ole cops that can't shoot as good as ya'll AGAIN ? Ya'll ought to be ashamed. ummm ummm ummm (shaking my head). Ya'll do society a favor and try and teach 'em something when you can.  They ain't all pricks.

GOOCH:  Got a Loopy MK 4 w/ dots on my city stick. Most don't. Money and training time (money again). Same ole shit forever ... you know the deal.

GUYS:  Kind of a push lately in the circles I hang with for the Hornady TAP 168 AMAX for open air cop stuff. Got a couple boxes to T/E.  It's shooting like a house afire (1/4-1/2) min. in the guys sticks.  What do ya'll think ?

Trying to find something better than Gold Medal Match for over penetration issues.  Still need the accuracy but terminal ballistics on people and not paper is more the focus. Several guys have taken shots w/ GM that went through folks heads but then just kept on a going - like through car doors and buildings. Just trying to find something better than the match loading, in a factory round, to try and keep from hurting folks that don't need hurting in the city environment.  Not everybody will seek cover or evac when the SWAT guys are out.  Hey !!! fire up the pit ! the cops are putting on a show.  ziiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnngggg !!!   he hee.

CIVIES/MIL/LE:  Wasn't it the NRA that got the military guys shooting programs headed on the right track, way back in the day ? You guys can shoot with me any time. The older I get the less I know but ... I am a damn handsome man, chicks dig me and that does cover a multitude of sins.  

Hey too, I need a pair of desert altamas just to ghillie up. Second hand is just fine.  Size 9 Reg.  You numbah one GI. Can hook me up cheap cheap ?

Take care guys,

Oh, HDR, they ain't got no ancedotals down here in this part of Texas.  They's up in the Panhandle where it's flat.


brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 22:12:36 (ZULU)

Brian, you funny.  One question why does your kid need the boots?  Size 9?  Just having some fun.  Been looking for a pair of size 12 myself. Good luck.

Mike Miller <>
CA, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 22:18:07 (ZULU)


if the conditions in CA are as dry as they are here in TN, you betta have him keep that flash suppressor off or you double timin' away from the next televised wildfire.  ;))


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 22:27:31 (ZULU)

Brian Sain...

>"Ya'll do society a favor and try and teach 'em something when you can."<

HA!... Double HA!!  A civilian teach an LE about shootin'... you gotta be jiving this ol' boy...

Everybody knows that LE are born knowing ALL about guns and that kinda stuff... least wise up this way.

Them listen to a civy?  HA!

And... >"I am a damn handsome man,"<

More HA!  You dog-ugly, jus' like CDC :))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 23:22:59 (ZULU)

9Rs:  I done told ya'll I was a pip squeak.

Hey heard a new one from the street.  Ya'll ever heard of a patooey rag ?

I stopped a whore that had this rag hanging out of her Daisy Duke pocket.  Figured it was for swattin' away the west nile skeeter bugs while she was OTJ.

Wrong.  When I asked she sez ...

"When I get done with a guy I just break out the rag and PATOOEY !!!!"


oh my god.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 23:40:04 (ZULU)

 Anybody here live in the Dallas metro area? I need a huge favor, will reciprocate. E-mail please.

Jim <>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 00:10:01 (ZULU)


 I have used the Hornady A-MAX 168gr (not the TAP version) out to 600yds, and they have performed extremely well with results similar to yours (1/4 to 1/2 MOA). I do not have any experience with the terminal balistics though.


LOA <>
MI, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 00:27:45 (ZULU)

>>Oh, HDR, they ain't got no ancedotals down here in this part of Texas.  They's up in the Panhandle where it's flat.<<

That's okay. These flat plains are just fine with me. High altitude and low humidity and today it was real COOL ... in the 70s AND NOOOOO HUMIDITY. Besides, I'd whole lot rather Bake than BROIL anyday. You can have all that humidity.

Where I live, Jim's reference to a FPF household rangecard is VERY viable. CRP grass all around. You can do some serious LONG RANGE shooting around here. Flat country? Yes....and loving it too. People stay away by the thousands ;)) You can bounce all the 308s, 338s and 50s around here (in certain places ) and nobody bothers you.

Where else can you do that?

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 01:45:28 (ZULU)

To cheap to fly to WV Moe?

Damn.  Alabama too far for ya?


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 01:49:32 (ZULU)

Brian:  Wash.DC "Street Whores"  (This classifies as a "War Story")

Got a call from the dispatcher at 2:40 something AM on a Saturday now morning.  Owner of a business (who lives upstairs above his business) calls and wants to file a traspassing warrant.

Seems like a visiting out of town businessman and a "street whore" were doing "it" in his back parking lot.  

Since he was determined to press charges, we had to take the "out of town" businessman and the street whore to 2nd District HQ for booking.

Now get this.. I asked for ID from the businessman, dirvers licence: John B. Smith (Names changed to protect the guilty)DOB, address, etc.

Now the street whore: Drivers licence: Billy R. Jones, DOB, address..etc..and a picture of a "GUY" a fxxking "GUY"!!!!!

When the businessman realizes this he got real pale and fell out of his chair hyperventalating.

Billy really did a good job on his makeup and had a nice ass, but it was now 3:30AM and I was getting tired and my eyes were blurring.  No, I didn't ask for his phone number.

Some where there is a businessman who will never again go to 14th Street NW looking for "love" in all the wrong places. (No pun intended.) {;-)


Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 02:09:55 (ZULU)


  Thanks for the info. I'll try to get up there to the festival.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 02:52:22 (ZULU)

This outfit has good prices on reloading supplies:

Has anyone dealt with them?  If so, how are they?

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 02:55:44 (ZULU)

Brian; keep yore andedotals down there. We got 15" ones runnin around here. Like Mark says, keep em away in droves!

Cops and 100 yard shots.

Was shooting one of those AR targets that are for setting the sights at 300 by shooting at 35 yards. It's a 3" man silouette. Was gonna compare my .223 coyote gun to that Bushy just for fun. The bush did 5 shots in .5 inch but spread em to 2" by the tenth shot.


I fired 6 shots at the head (.5inch head) and cut a ragged hole .35" in the head. The seventh shot split a LC Military case right in the middle and went .75 inches low. I told my Grandson the would bee, "You see there grasshopper, that's why cops don't shoot more than 100 or 2 yards if they don't have too." IF you blow that thing to 500 yards and no wind with perfect ranging all those 6 rounds are in the head of the perpetrator. That last one is in the head of the hostage.

I been wondering what a split case would do to a precision shot. Just thought ya'll might be interested.


Brogers < >
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 03:08:06 (ZULU)

Nuther thing; Gooch and the regulars know I'm funnin about the Cop-dot's but really they do need em! While back ,I recommended a Sheep Circle (Sheperd Scope) to a Deputy Sheriff who wanted to sell his Sheriff on Sniper rifles cause I know how hard it is to get Mil Dots to the first time sniper dept. havin been there to face the ole boys' problems a couple time. I hope Ya'll see where I was coming from but I jas wanted to set the record straight for somebody who's readin for the first time. Besides all the grazin fire I took from Titan and everyone else, I should set the record straight. Oh yeah, the .35 inch group  (post above) was shot with a Sheperd just in case your wondering.

Brogers < >
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 03:16:51 (ZULU)

Okay guys,

Made my point to the folks I needed too.  We won.

Out here

Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 03:32:11 (ZULU)

Ego and LE's-  Gentlemen, you have to understand the driving force of LE SWAT types is motivated by the CDI factor.   Without the CDI factor there would be no SWAT, no black PJ's, no velcro, no bushy mustache, no going to the gym...etc.   The CDI factor controls all that is LE Spec-Ops and the need for all Spec-Ops equipment.

of course by CDI factor I mean:

C hicks

D ig  

I t

Actually most SWAT type are motivated to be the best and believe in what they do.  some just let the ego get in the way.  Ego is a very important aspect of being an operator.  You have to believe you're the best because if you don't think you're better then the guy you're after then why are you going after him?  Ego just needs to be a controlled item and controlled ego's come with age and experiance.

Right now I'm not on a spec team  I'm on our depatments range staff as a colateral duty right now, trying to keep these folks proficient (that's a whole other topic and rant).  My primary job of late is...(everybody sitting down).....Traffic.  I do the collisions and lots of tickets....Oh well.  I have stayed in the rifle shooting scene for fun and share the range with the SWAT snipers of several departments.  Off the top of my head I can think of two or three in the county that can shoot with me or better. The common thread between us is we really practice and our gear is tested and used before being deployed.  It's all simple and if it won't work it won't go to the field.  You'll see us hanging around the bench shooters and hunters chatting it up because a lot of these guys know how to get great performance from their equipment and have sound stalking methods.  Not to mention some of those guys can just plain shoot! The younger super macho guys stick to themselves and tend to have compounded training.  They keep expanding on the circle of training they know.  If one is good at something they all get good at that topic.  If one is bad but presents his side well then they all get bad together but think they are good.  They will learn with experiance.  They keep trying to get us to go with all the bells, whistles and doo-dads.  They just can't understand why we keep our stuff so simple and straight forward.  They will learn.  The best advice is teach by example and if they see you are kicking their butts they will start to pay attention.

They will them along even at the cost of their pride and your frustration.            

Keep safe,

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, Cali, US of A - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 04:05:45 (ZULU)


You can only think of two or three shooters in the country that can shot at your level.

With a head that big you must drive a convertable.

That is a pretty arrogant statment given the level of experience and training that a few of the people on this site have under there belt.

If you are ever in Oklahoma City  come by the Oklahoma County Sheriff training center. We have an 800 yard range, maybee you can show us how it is done.

A little humility never hurt anyone.

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 06:50:11 (ZULU)

Jim Anderson-Me thinks I flamed you....I was not being arrogant just the opposite from that.  My comment was in regard to LE types I have experiance with only.  I have faced off with as many of the LE shooters as possible here.  As far as bull hitting ability in an area they are comfortable with, plenty can shoot with me.  Get them out of their practiced bubble and it takes a toll on them.  I do practice,  I do take it seriously, I do know there are plenty of trigger pullers out there that can out shoot me.  For example... I mentioned I chat up the bench rest shooters a lot, not to be arrogant but to learn more.  These guys would clean my clock in their arena.  Take many local LE's out to the 100yd rifle range and they shoot great groups all day long, prone.  take them to the our nearby open desert, or just make them shoot from different positions for that matter, and start moving them around and having him engage targets of unknown distance and it is an awakening for them.  

If all the shooters in you county are that good. I commend the training staffs there and the dedication to the position of the offciers.  Although I think there are some very dedicated personnel around here I totally believe they have been left out on training but have no idea they are behind in the curve.  Ego has a lot to do with that but so does the command that continues to pay lip service to the the shooter by always telling him he's best without insisting he actually be the best.   It's not uncommon to see some of the local guys take a 100yd shot at a 1" circle and not hit it.  This happened earlier this year at the range.  out of 12 of us on the line, shooting prone, only 4 of us kept the impact in the circle.  This was not a stress course or even timed for that matter and the guys were all using the rig they carry on the street.  

The point I was trying to make was not how wonderful I am but how the shooteres can be very mistrained and misled.  If they don't seek outside infomation and training for all types of situations they have a big problem on their hands like it or not, know it or not.  I have tried, with some of my shooting budddies, to talk to some of the shooters.  I'm sure you have ran into the "I'm SWAT you not, I know best' attitude.  Then it's just a waste of our time.  But we have gotten a few guys to start exchanging a ideas and practicing with us.  One of the guys I think can out shoot me is someone that a year ago couldn't touch me.  He thought he was awsome at the time.  After a few "lessons" and he started asking questions and learning.  He has turned into a very good shooter now in a lot more ways than just hitting bulls and is trying to pass the experiance on to those that want it.

Well I've taken up way to much band width and I sincerly mean I was not trying to blow my own horn, I was just calling a dog a dog.  I wouldn't mind checking out that range of yours (how far from Hobart is it I have family there I visit every blue moon or so).  We can only dream of an 800yd LE range here.  We have to go to a private range to get as far as 300 around here and the 1000yd range is also private and about a 2hr drive.  As far as the convertable goes...I have a hard top I used to race NHRA brakets with (still runs in the 10's in street trim).  The convertables just don't stand up the ponies as well....body flex ya know.

Elvis has left the building.

Joe S.              

Joe S. <>
Dago, Cali, USofA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 08:13:25 (ZULU)

To the two "Gentlemen??" that are dueling at 1000 miles, with single shot (flintlock) keyboards, please keep this in mind.

Sometimes, things said on this site come out misunderstood, or read a tone that wasn't intended... sometimes we type something that should have a " ;) " at the end of the statement, but doesn't!... or the tone of the comment is skewed cuz the wifie is on your case, the kids are nagging you for a new computer game, work has been shitty all month, your divorce lawyer has told you that you are going to lose... any number of reasons.

You guys quit taking pot shots at each other, or you are going to have to go to your rooms with NO milk and cookies (and without your keyboards)!

Now quit it, cuz I said so!!

And remember this...

"Yo' Mama!"  :))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 11:03:57 (ZULU)

Marco you git, you had me spluttering coffee all over this darn key board, and i laughed so loud that every one in mission control thought i was having a fit.That was one hell of an after action report, i take great offence(not realy) at you comments about my "heym barreled air gun" you know your only jealouse that you have a shitty factory thing and not a superior custom stick , built by a great gunsmith,how come my 30-06 will out shoot you guys sticks and i'm shooting factory hunting ammo and how can you compare that NXS ( yuk spit ! ) to my beautifull PMII, hell, just read what fat boy asked about the tracking on the one he has, hell, your rig is nearly as bad as Val's, exept he's got a (yuk spit !) leupold. ha ha..funny that Stuart the stalker who was going to order a Callum Fergison rifle decided he wanted one like mine,as did Pete the agent(airgun..ha), anyhow, enough ribbing about your inferior kit...ha ha.. ref the trophies on the boat.. hell i wasn't dancing, i was doing my one leg shorter than the other funny walk and slipped on some beer you spilled, the fat coloured chick just managed to catch me...and i only danced with her sister to piss her boyfriend off (and that worked, did you see the size of them 2 guys?) or was you to busy sending messages with my cellphone??,and you never mentioned the Lituanian chick, or the Polish waitress,( I take back every bad word I ever said about Pole's, this one was a real cute woman, wasn't she) hell did we have a good time eh? that was about the most fun hunting trip I ever had, I'll hunt with you funny Dutch blokes any day of the week..and tell Val i fixed his Leica, and it was operator error, your supposed to read the damn instructions, and if he had, he'd have noticed that he should have set the thing to meters not yards, that will cost him some beer.

i got your boar tusks by the way.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 11:12:22 (ZULU)


Check out the link below to Mid South Shooting Supplies. I don't know what supplies your're lookin for, but 175 SMKs' are cheaper at Mid South by almost $3.00/100


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 11:49:14 (ZULU)

John:  T and T is about 10% cheaper on some tools.  I wanted to know if they were all-right to work with.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:05:49 (ZULU)

CDC, I need some 175s. I'll order a 100 and get back to ya. We'll find out.


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:14:56 (ZULU)

Ref: Over Penetration

I've heard this phrase quite a bit over the last few years when LEOs talk about sniper ammunition.  Having a more military mindset myself I always figured "Over Penetration" was like being too tall to play basketball.  If this is a serious consideration, and we all know cops never shoot further than 100 yards, why not go 5.56 with say a 52 grain MK.  I don’t think that would exit the old melon.  "Ah" you say, "What about shooting through glass?"  I would suggest the good old SS109 for that task or go back to your golf bag and get your .308.  Besides, shooting BGs through glass is a sucker's bet.

Ref: Fixed Fortifications

MedicJim, If we're about to get over-run the family knows the safe lanes through the perimeter wire and it ain't a FFP on the household range card it's FPF. ;-)


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:16:01 (ZULU)

'lito , Joe, Jim-  I think the skirmish between Joe and Jim resultd from Jim adding an "R" in the word "county" to make "country".  Obviously completly different animals.  Depending on the county population its not a big boast at all.  The county in West Va where I have a weekend place only has a population of 7000,and even though a large portion of them shoot at some level(they even close the schools for the first week of deer season), there are very few "shooters".  John and I have given up reaching for ballistic tables when one of the locals tells us that his 7MM super duper ultra mag shoots flat out to 500 yards and then starts to rise a little!



rod hansen <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:26:01 (ZULU)

CDC - T & T is good to go.. I buy my powder there.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:43:28 (ZULU)

Rod; you must do quite well as a spotter too. I saw that too but glad I didn't have to bring it up cause it was too entertaining.

Joe; and Jim sorry!, but it was tooooo funny to spill the beans.

Who the hell ever said us Okies can read right anyway! You punks made my day! How come it is that the funniest stuff that happens is always supposed to be serious? Or maybe it just seems that way to me.

Brogers < >
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 12:57:23 (ZULU)

Home Security Plan:   Every home should have one....   Plan and train just like anything else and it won't come as a surprise if it happens.   Consult security guru's and LEO's for advice.   Then implement a plan.

Geez all these tears for LE not having funds for MilDots or training.   All my NYC LE friends are claiming they have a windfall of cash with all these Homeland Security and Recovery funds available.  They are actually complaining about too much OT.

Recieved a sponsor list for the SMTC match.  Nice prizes, an FN 308, a 50 cal, suppressors, barrels, scopes and other equipment.  I've got my fingers crossed.

Some interesting articles on equipment and lessons learned in Afghanistan:

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 13:39:02 (ZULU)

Right Guys, now for the real after action report, I won't write it all here cos it would take up to much space, so here are the highlights.

We had the novices take it in turns to go out with the very experienced estate Stalker, Stuart. just to give them a chance to learn a little, I think they all enjoyed the experience, 1 guy went with Stuart each morning and evening and the rest where given an area to stalk. first night we got 3 bucks, the begining of the week proved to be difficult because the mature bucks weren't showing, i figured they where layed up having a mid rut break, we saw plenty of females and yearling bucks, out on the open hill it was possible to see mature bucks chasing does, but among the trees we just didn't see em. the weather was perfect for rutting but activity was a little slow, it started to pick up mid week, spotting he bucks from afar of vantage point and then stalking in proved to be the best method, the guys out with Stuart where getting a Buck or two (as was I) but other wise still a little slow. By wednesday every one had been out with Stuart, so I went along for a day out, passed up the chance to shoot a couple of good bucks, i figured that they should be left for the others, providing they could be found again. Then we saw a herd of Red Stags, sillouette them selves on a distant mountain side, we swapped the landrover for an 8 wheel go any where machine and drove away trying to get 2 hills away with the intention of stalking back and coming in from above the stags, we got about as far as we could drive and then more stags appeared on the hill we where headed for, so we dismounted and headed up a ravine in an attempt to cut the stags off at the pass, we got about a 3/4 mile up this ravine and the stags had dropped down almost on top of us, so we had to crawl up the steep bank sides of the ravine, trying to get into a shooting possition, that proved difficult to do with out getting seen, the stags where on a convex hill side and our only cover was heather about 10 inches deep , or the ravine side, after trying a few places for a clear shot I finaly got into about the riht place, but the harris bipod was to long for the awkward angle i needed to shoot at, so the Steiner Bino's made a good make shift bipod, I took the shot on my very first ever Scottish hill Stag( a nice 10 pointer) at about 70m, he ran a few meters and dropped, trying to pick the right stag out of a herd of about 200 is not particularly easy, neither is stalking close to them, it sounds easy to shoot a stag out of such a big group, but you ain't stalking just any stag, your stalking a particular one and all the rest are his body guards. We got the stag gutted and i was blooded ( a Scotts custom of smearing the stags blood on the face of the hunter) the I gragged the beast of the hill and down to the machine, we got him taken back to the larder and sorted out and headed back out to try for another(this was now about 5 hours later), we decided to try and get above the stags by driving up the next valley and stalking over the hill, but be bumped a small group of stags as we drove up the valley in the landrover, we dismounted again, gave them 10 moinutes to disapear and calm down, and then set off in hot persuit, up another ravine. nearing the summit we could see antlers skylined, we did the next 300m on our bellies trying to get as close as possible without bieng seen, i was leading the stalk/crawl and I got us within 200m. found a good position and Stuart picked out a stag, which promptly sat down and went to sleep, we waited, and waited, then anoher group of stags joined the group we where watching, we estimate the total number of stags in from of us to be over 600, i counted to 200 and that was about a third, the stags started milling about with each other and i couldn't get a clear shot at my target beast, so i slipped back and down the hill to the left, crawling back forward onto a small knoll, Stuart joined me and was spotting again for me, we agreed on the location of the desired beast and i got ready to take the shot, the deer began a slow walk to the right and i took the shot as soon as a safe opening in the herd appeared. Stag number 2 dropped at the shot. Stuart went to fetch the machine and I gutted the stag, and sat admiring a most breathtaking view over the Angus Glens.

The guys where gradualy getting into the spotting deer excersise and where begining to do quite well, several stalks, some marathon stalks, and one or two busted stalks or missed deer. Marco spotted a buck from over 1200m away, raced to get close and picked up the bavarian guy on the way, when the Bavarian missed the buck twice, Marco shot it. I called a buck in, pretending to be a doe on heat, and I also had a 1200 + m stalk, up a ravine, to take a kneeling shot on the fully extended harris at 200m.

Jon Beardsley turned up to visit on Thursday and we had an interesting evening in the rain together,attempting to call a Buck, a roe kid/fawn was prancing about along a tree line just over a ravine, all of a sudden its ears went back and it shot of like lightening, about 2 mins later Jon spotted a nice fox, just behind where the fawn had been, we figured the fox might have been stalking the fawn and wondered where the fawns mother was (probably getting covered by a Buck), i shot the fox and we headed down off the hill.

next morning Jon and I went out as a team again, after dropping the last of the others off, we spotted a deer way off on the opposite hill side, jon (with his super spotting scope) confirmed it was a buck, so we drove the car down the trakc as near as we could and then headed of on a stalk through the trees, picking our way up the hill to the spot where we had seen the deer, we emerged from the treeline to far right and had to drop back and move left, making our way out of the tree line we get set up near a fence. Weglassed the area, but couldn't see anything, Jon began calling, then so did I, taking it in turns calling and glassing, a doe turned up about 15m away, she just appeared out of the bracken, we froze and she didn't know what we where, we dressed like a bush and the wind was right, she stayed in front of us for a while and moved left to be with her fawn, we carried on calling, a buck chasing a doe came over the top of the hill, the buck stopped and the dow ran on a bit, only to be picked up by another buck, as ifby magic, deer appeared form all over, then we saw the buck we where after, chasing a doe out of the bracken up on the hill side, jon was callingb the range for me and i got set up for the shot, muzzle through the damn rabbit wire, i couldn't get a shot without my barrel touching the wire, so Jon cut a large enough hole in the fence to give me some clearance,jon called the range (just under 200m) and I took the shot, I hit the buck but he didn't go down, shoot again, Jon said, i shot, but my barrel was hard against the fence(and i scratched it too) so the shot went wide and high, the buck took his last breath and fell where he stood. Jons dogs helped me fing him in the waist deep heather.

I realy enjoyed hunting and sharing a couple of drinks with all these guys, it was great to stalk with Jon, and we all had a lot of fun together, you couldn't have hunted with a nicer bunch of guys.

Weeks total was: 20 Roe Bucks, 2 Red Stags, 2 Foxes (and the rabbits Marco mentioned)

and whilst we are on the subject of Marco, if there was ever a natural born hunter, that cloggie sod is him, he's been bitten by the hunting bug and he will do well at it.

Lessons learned:

1. I need a spotting scope and some rain gear from Arktis.

2. Harris bipod is far superior to the versa pod, after trying one out on Joe's SSG and the scimilar thing on Vals TRG,you couldn't get me to put one on anything but a light machine gun.

3. Remember to put repellant on your ass, cos the darn midges will bite it when you take a crap if you forget.

4. When the stalker tells you that you are a great target shot but a shit shot on deer, don't bite, cos he's been trying to convince you to take kneck shots all week(without success) and is trying to wind you up cos he's had to much whiskey, just answer him with a question, "exactly how many deer have I missed, wounded or lost this week?"and that would have shut him up.ha, the Jock sense of humour..??

Thanks for an excellent week guys. Photos to follow.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 13:46:26 (ZULU)

Ok guys I didn't think I was going to start an issue here so I'm just going to clarify a little then take my cookies an milk to my room as ordered by Lito.

I'll give some numbers for you to make it a little less outlandish.  My county (no r) has several million people, about 12 local LE agencies for a total of about 5500-6000 cops.  Of all those agencies and cops there are about 45 +/- or so "precision marksman" tops.  This dosen't count all the react and perimeter guys with the AR's, ACOG's and what-not.  I have the most dealings with the south & west sides of the county which has the largest share of cops, including the "big" depatment.  I have not had a lot to do with the Sheriff's overall and hear they have a couple excellent shooters, I just haven't met them but know of them by reputation.  The point I was trying to make was not that I am the next coming of Christ with a rifle but that the sniper programs on a personal and official level need improvment.  Sometimes the shooters can make a difference in the program (ie: self iniated training) other times the problems are out of their hands (you can't practice if the department won't buy you enough ammo or give you the time) I meant to imply nothing more.  I can't speak for the Feds around here.  Their snipers are like Bigfoot....You hear stories about them and some folks belive in them ,but you can't find anybody thats actually seen one.

No rants, flames or feuds OK.

And for what it's worth  All the LE snipers I've crossed paths with around here are using mildots.  How well maybe a different topic to save for a rant another day =)  

Please secure you dining tray and return you seatback to the upright position for landing,  thank you.

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 15:21:51 (ZULU)

Deleted-sorry for the double tap

Joe S. <>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 15:25:58 (ZULU)

KEVIN:  There have been some less than spectacular results from the .223 in LE SNIPER shootings where a headshot could not be taken, a chest shot was taken and immedate incapacitation was not achieved.  The suspect died but was able to take people with him.  You made some viable points however.  I and most of us that are serious about the trade (not just because the chicks dig us), are fans of the bigger is better theory.  Most of us carry two different .308 rounds for open air and barrier penetration. If I cannot make a head shot, I will take a body shot OR TWO OR THREE. If I have to do that, I would rather do it with the 308 than the .223.  Especially if the guy weighs 250 lbs. + or some shit.

A cop sniper with a PURELY military mindset will not be a police sniper long. Skill set is the same.  Mindset is different.

Too, how a sniper can NOT be a gun guy is beyond me. They get the designation, some training and a rifle but that is as far as it goes with many.  I grew up hunting and competing and reloading like ya'll.  I guess that's why I fit in a little better here.

CONVERSELY, the guys with Recon, SF training etc. are naturals. They have experience and different training than just rushing a machine gun nest "cuz Gunny said so".  They think on their own, they think before they act and they are much more laid back.  I'd rather have a so so shot who's cool under pressure than a great shot that just can't think fast or run around the block but is packed full of blind gung ho, hooyah, hooah. Don't need too too much of that stuff. Guys will OD and mess up.

We have a Marine Scout Sniper, Desert Storm DECORATED veteran here who has tried out for the team several times.  He can't hit the berm with a handgun.  He's been in a pistol shooting which worked out okay but he does not have the mindset to be a SWAT sniper. You wouldn't think he would be that way.  I know I didn't.

MONEY:  Some PDs can get funds, some can't.  Some have smart gun friendly people in high places, most don't. Some spend money on training and their guys.  Some spend it on white out and paper clips. Here, we seize tons of money from dope raids BUT our dope guys are assigned to a Task Force with the County and they spend the money on dope shit and not SWAT shit even though some of the dope cops are SWAT cops. Get it ?  The County team has all the goodies, we have shit. Bean counters suck.  CPAs not SWAT operators.  If it ain't their kid being held hostage they just don't give a shit. We pray every day that someone will take a hostage at City Hall.

Back to the guns - for CQB, where a rifle fight takes place at handgun distances, I want a .223 with a 40 frang or 55 SP so I don't kill my buddy in the next room when I double tap the BG. FMJs and BTHP will hurt your own people.

You were right about glass.  Iffy at best.  You gotta make the call on how and when to do it or if you even can do it. Lots of issues there. Spalling, etc. Just my thinking though ... You can do it right and still get sued. That's why they pay us all that money.

Mark W: Gotta love it - miles and miles to shoot.  I got 600 here but that's it.  Always wanted my own 1000 range.

Joe S:  I remember my first postings here.  I felt like a karate student that had been blindfolded and put up against multiple attackers.  Cop to cop, we talk different than normal folks. Unless you are a cop and think like a cop, it's hard to figure you. I had just come from SWAT mode off of an international operational sniper only site.  I signed off that site and on to DR thinking everyone was on the same page. Wrong.  Took a while to be accepted, just like most groups.  I came across as too arrogant and a bunch of the DR guys I call friends now told me to eaten ze shitzen und fucken ze offen.  Hey, that's just people.

LITO:  I don't know, maybe that's why some of the cops don't want someone telling them how to do their job.  For every knowledgeable stranger out there that trys to help and tell a cop how to do something, there are ten thousand idiots that try and tell them how to do their jobs every day. Everybody's a law student and you get a little defensive.  It doesn't help when the cop is a fucking idiot too and can't tell the difference between someone wanting to help and a know it all or jailhouse lawyer.  Even worse than that is when either party doesn't know they are an idiot and think they have the world by the ass.

Prime Example: I always thought CDI meant Cop Donut Intake.

I just came on too strong right off the bat with the SWAT talk from work.  Hit people wrong.  I stuck around, even though everybody but Wes and a couple of more thought I was a prick. I mean, I am and all but I like to think I am a likeable prick.

So much to learn in life ...

Damn, I sound like a Dad.

PS: What the hell is wrong with chicks digging you ?  You guys a bunch of fags or what ? ha !

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 16:36:09 (ZULU)

Back from Perry.  Had dinner with Ken M., and saw Steve U's (Hockeyref) scores on the board, but didn't get linked up.  Met Tim (Khe Sanh) on the shooter's trolley on the way to the 1,000 yard line.

Many lessons learned.

If you're using a drop-in case OAL Gauge for checking headspace of  your cartridges you may end up short, literally (I must now shit-can several thousand 5.56 cases that are 5 thousandths shorter than factory length, or 8 thousandths shorter than fired.  Shorter cases allow the firing pin to put a huge dent in a primer, but the impact actually drives the whole round forward until it hits the chamber shoulder, without enough shock to set off a Winchester Small Rifle primer).  Solution is a Stoney Point headspace bushing (mounted on your calipers) to mike shoulder set-back during re-sizing stage.

Pulling the bullets and salvaging powder starts tonight.

USAMU is shooting the 5.56mm 77 grain Match King for "Rattle Battle" from 600 yards.

If you are struggling to maintain a 600-yard M16 iron sight average because of vision problems, going back to an M-14 may fix it.

178 A-Maxs were shooting inside my 1,000 yard 175 Match King wind calls (identical 45-grain Varget charge).

Am retiring my M-14 for 1,000 yard iron sights and will go to a bolt gun next year.  Too damn hard to see target over a post sight.

175s from a 24 inch barrel were shooting inside 155s fired from a 28-inch Palma barrel (1,000 yards, winds 9 mph gusting to 21 mph.  155s launched around 3,000 fps).

My 45 grain Varget (raw 175 Match King) 1,000 yard loads were sticking in my M14.  Will have to either stick with moly or back down a half grain).

Mark C, NCOIC of the SOTIC Course who works with Rick, says M118LR hasn't increased the graduation rate, but graduates' scores have gone up 10%.

Kev, glad to hear you are back with us, and on the road to recovery!

Steve, there are a number of ranges in the Florida panhandle/lower Alabama area.  Contact Gary Crayne (a retired AFSOC E-9, he shoots around there, and says there's a match darned near every weekend).

I don't understand Canada's problem with letting US Forces decorate their snipers.  TF Afghanistan just decorated the Australian SAS Commander with a Bronze Star (SF has had long allied combat relations with the Aussies dating back to WWII and Vietnam).

Pete, Jon, Marco, you lucky, lucky bastards...

Sinister Dave <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:17:44 (ZULU)

Humor for the day, shooting related . . . a friend sent this to me, and I couldn't resist.  Click my name or go to

John <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:21:35 (ZULU)

Everyone knows the new thing is firemen...chicks now dig firemen... cops are out. Firemen that are also medics are more sensitive and have good hands, chicks dig them even more than just your run-of-the-mill fire-stud. No worries, the next Starsky and Hutch is due out any year now... you LE types will come back just like disco (oh, sorry)...

Sain, sounds like your next rifle is gonna be shooting a .50 cal frangible (bigger is better?)...if you blow the bad-guy to pieces, some of the body parts are gonna hit friendly folks... blunt trauma is worse than penetrating trauma...

Gun question...

USMC M40A3 (shameless derivation off Mike Miller's article) - around 17lbs... why so heavy for one or two shots?  This is a complex subject, and I don't have all the factors, but I think I got the simple, obvious ones need to rehash them.

Hunting is a lot like sniping, so why do hunters carry light rifles while snipers seem to carry heavier and heavier?  Is a HB really a factor for shot #1 or #2?  If not, what justifies the extra weight?


Jim MItchell <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:23:33 (ZULU)

Brian:  You've been an excellent addition to this site from day one, and you're getting better.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:25:49 (ZULU)

Hi Pete and Marco,

Good to see you again Pete, and nice to have met you at last Marco; hope we'll meet again.  What a great bunch of guys, I just wish I had been able to come for the whole week.

Marco, you can get the pod-lock details here The guy at KMW is very helpful and quick with the order.

On my 'huge' trophy, I'm considering making it into a keyring, if I can find a ring small enough ;-).

Pete, with regards Stuart's comments about your 'shit' marksmanship on deer - keep practicing, it'll come in time ;-)  It may help if you get yourself a decent scope; don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just making constructive comments.  Ever considered an NXS? ;-)

Thanks for the memories fellas.

All the Best


P.S.  Whats this about you doing a bit of exotic big game hunting on the way home????

Jon Beardsley <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:33:38 (ZULU)

A while back I posted asking about ideas on a loading bench, and I thought I would give some feedback to everyone on what I went with.  

While looking at power tools at Sears, I noticed their line of Craftsman work benches.  They were also on sale.  I ended up going with with the following:

I recommend cut and pasting that URL, what a pain, eh?

I think Leveron and I could probably resize .50BMG brass on this thing without any problems.  The quality is excellent and it only took about two hours total to assemble.  I didn't buy the optional pegboard back, but the bench alone runs $125.


Michael Roberts <>
MidMO, MO, - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 17:49:41 (ZULU)

Joe... Jim...

You guys are not even on the cookies and milk list!  It was two other (very nice) guys that just got a bad start on a comment, and it went down hill from there.


Well, after that double tap, maybe you're in trouble now ;))



>"For every knowledgeable stranger out there that trys to help and tell a cop how to do something, there are ten thousand idiots that try and tell them how to do their jobs every day."<

I think you are right on that one... I doubt that they will take advice from a civy, unless it has been proven that the civy knows their poop.  Course if they won't shoot with the civies, then... Aw we been there before ;))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 18:11:51 (ZULU)

A-max at 1000 yards, do perform better due to the low drag function. Usually I only shoot 800 and almost always 168's. I've just recently gotten access to the other 200 yards. It was immediately apparent the VLDs 0ut did the Match Kings due to the sound barrier thing. Probably the 175s would be fine and hold the sound barrier. I just have't had time to test that one yet.

Dave; I had to go down to 42.5 with the M1a this seems to duplicate the Military .308 168 match in performance. This is a 2550 something load they probably load with M 118's or something like that. The rifle handles it but the accuracy seemed much better there. I agree on changing to the M-14 sights. Much better than the AR's. if that was what you meant. I should know but can't remember if the M-118 is 172 or 168 but anyway the loads I had were marked MATCH and 168 gr.

Brian; all I can tell you is that Chicks don't really dig Camo. It's the men in black I think. Only cowgirls like coyote hunters.Ok so now they are diggin firemen! About 30 years tooo damn late for me!

Bill Rogers <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 18:39:38 (ZULU)

LTC don't retire the M14 if it shoots well try an aperture front sight with interchangeable reticules.   There are many crosshair or peep reticles available that should allow the target to be visible at any distance.

As far as the bolt gun goes, the Tubbs in 6.5-08 seems to be making a good showing with the high power guys in my neck of the woods.

I wouldn't be surprised if the TF dagger guys presented some awards to the Canadian's and the local indigenous freedom fighters  outside of DOD.   It just would be nice if they were recognized by all..

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:03:36 (ZULU)


I sent you an off-line e-mail.  No attachments.  Should be this e-mail address.

Don't be scared!!

Rich Johnson <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:09:28 (ZULU)

Brian K. Sain,

>>Mark W: Gotta love it - miles and miles to shoot.  I got 600 here but that's it.  Always wanted my own 1000 range.<<

Come on up to the Panhandle. You'll already be shooting on a higher plain. Hehe. I'll get you a 1000 yards and much more. My range includes a bench on skids with a towing cable. Just drag that sucker anywhere and whatever range you want it, if you need it. Comes in real handy when you're ranging a scope.

I've already got some of the Lubbock cops wanting to shoot with me...or say they do ;))  

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:17:01 (ZULU)



 I misread your post, country and county do make a big difference.  sorry for the abrupt post, last night was a long shift, raining, nothing going on, smelly K-9 type dog barking his ass off in back seat,and that post was made from that stinky car in the last hour of that long shift.

 no excuses though I AM AN ASS

  my partner and I did go out at the begining of the shift and shoot steel out to 600 yards on a local siloutte range.   so I guess anytime I get to shoot free bullets on county time and call it training I can't complain to much.  o yes we also cleaned our rifles on county time.  life is good!!!!

 Just found out I get to teach a subgun school for 300.00 a day in the next few weeks  an easy $900.00

Bobby Whittington if you read this drop me an e-mail I am curious about that school being in your neck of the state and CLEET wanting Mac and I to teach it.

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 19:55:24 (ZULU)

Baghdad MOUT.  Check out the links:

Good MOUT site:

A professor of strategy and force planning at the Naval War College has some thoughts on Iraq war past and future.  This is good:

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 20:36:25 (ZULU)

Jim-No heartburn here buddy.  I was worried I said something even stupider than normal for a while but all is well and I am still very jealous that you guys have and 800yd LE range.  I guess we could set up in the hood.  Nobody pays any attention to the shooting already going on there so we would blend in.  I love shooting on their dime too, it just gives a true feeling of satisfaction.

Lito-I'm a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad boy ....sorry for the douple tap...I guess my keyboard was set on burst.  Second post delated as soon as I woke up today. Can I still have cookies and milk though =)

Brian-  Man you hit a big nail on a big head with a big hammer when you menioned the civies and sea lawyers trying to tell us how to do our job.  A warning about that should be written in on the job description.  Over the years I have opened a little more to listening to see if it sounds like they know what they are talking about before I gafaw.  At the range I always try to learn from those old guys with the $5K sticks that know how to shoot.   Hell I'll get in deep discussions about what pocket to carry you dope book in.  

Pete L-You are just a hunting madman =)  I am talking to my better half and I hope to get back to the fatherland next summer.  Let the games begin.

Please keep you arms and legs in the car at all times while the ride is still in motion, thank you.

Joe S.  

Joe S. <>
Dago, CA, land of the libs, US of A - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:01:22 (ZULU)

"To cheap to fly to WV Moe?

Damn.  Alabama too far for ya?"

Gooch, you got me there!  Alabama IS on the way to Mississippi!  :0


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:10:04 (ZULU)

 Storm in Oxford huh? Local boys should keep 'em busy......might check it out myself.......

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:42:53 (ZULU)

Joe S...

Yeah... it's OK now ;))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 00:52:11 (ZULU)

I don't see a difference between civvy vs LE vs mil shooting skills.  On an average, they all stink.  The difference is between hobbyists and nonhobbyists.  

CDC' <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 02:01:41 (ZULU)

CDC: how about the definition of ameteur being someone who does it for the love of the art, and the definition of a professional being someone who gets paid to not enjoy it as much (or know which end is the dangerous one, your choice)

MedicJim, so chicks dig the fireman-medic combo eh? Going to give that consideration. Now, could you tell me why you guys (medics) wear prophylactics on your hands? Maybe I don't want THOSE chicks to dig me!

Sinister Dave, retiring your M-14? Say it ain't so! Cute, disease-free, perky chicks without parasites DIG that rifle you know!

Brian, you keep 'em coming, I'm enjoying your posts. If you're a jerk, I'd be glad to hang with jerks.

Andy's Dad, glad you're back so quickly. That mowing the kill zone comment was too funny. He's not neglecting duties, he's making it more challenging for you. Any kid with a BHP is OK in my book.

All this from a guy with a stick that has the highest CDI factor you've ever seen (and enjoying every minute of it!). So where do I go to qualify for cookies and milk?

Jaeger <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 02:56:03 (ZULU)


LE v Mil shooting skills.  No diff.  Its all moa.  If a guy can hold a .3 moa group at 50 yards then he should be able to do the same at 700 yards.  It all depends on gear, dope in the databook and wind reading skills.  I have seen LE guys that can shoot and mil guys that can shoot.  I have seen USMC snipers who could barely pass a school and LE guys that couldnt figure out how to use tgt turrets.  It dont matter what the uniform is.

Civvies did teach the military how to shoot.  The NRA taught them all back when the NRA was a shooting organization.  Places like Sea Girt, New Jersey and folks like General Wingate.  Even the Marines couldnt shoot worth a shit until just prior to WWI and the adoption of the '03.  Cops are a little behind the power curve in most places cause there is no real central agency who dictates long gun training.  Yeah the FBI kind of does but there is no common standard.  So you have dudes in Arkansas with .270 Rugers, dudes in Texas with .223 Bolt guns and fellers in Berkley with 7.62 M21's.

Out here

Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 03:04:19 (ZULU)


Beings that I shoot alone and have never been in any kind of match I'm not sure what is and isnt good in terms of accuracy.  I was out last week with a 1ooyd small bore rifle target set out at 300 yards.  I was able to keep all shots in the 9 ring.  I'm not sure how good that is.  If it helps, there was a 10-15 mile an hour cross wind.



Scott Chapman <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 03:29:35 (ZULU)

Scott; that'll do, but don't never tell how good you can shoot or how fast you can draw!

Lets see Jim's an Ass he says.

Dave's retiring his M-14.

Brian's a Jerk he says.

Jaeger is shootin for cookies and milk.

This has become a den of liars. I don't believe nothin you guys say!

Jim Mitchell; nobody is gonna touch your question and with all the lyin goin on how could you believe it anyway.

The reason for heavy Sniper Rifles is cause I ain't converted all of em yet!

LE has em cause they all got cars and backup so they don't have to get up and run.

And even they are all lookin at smaller shorter anyway for the most part.

Somebody mentioned the .223 ain't quite deadly enough. Put you some real bullets in there and take those pointy nose fmj's out. You won't have to shoot em twice.

Drat; I'm bein bit by the double space fairy!

Brogers < >
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 04:03:29 (ZULU)

'yote bait......

                Were you talkin' about the military 7.62 Match ammo loaded with a 168? Labeled M852? The bullet's an SMK. and it chronos 2568 avg. out of my M1A. Good ammo for the price when CMP was selling it, and left you with some good LC brass if you didn't get some from a few shitty years production!

                I was never real satisfied with the old M118, with that crummy (IMHO) 173gr. mil. bullet. The M118LR (with 175gr SMK) that replaced it shoots just fine in all of my .308's. The only problem that I've had is finding it! Been loading my own facsimilies.

                Heavy vs. light sniper barrels? Like you, I won't touch that one, I have definate opinions, but already got into a shitstorm this week;-) Enough for a while.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 05:12:01 (ZULU)

Anyone have opinions or experiance with Farrell rings/bases....

They look like less expensive alternatives to Badger but I have made enough rookie purchasing decisions for this year so I am trying to get validation on the best options for around $200.  Also considering the IOR 20 moa set.  


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 06:09:33 (ZULU)

Hey Jon, you could make that little antler,( from that poor little yearling buck you head shot) into a nice ear ring, or maybe you could go in for this pearcing shit thats all the rage these days.Is that fore end stud still holding in there? or have your ripped it out again, and whats all this NXS bull, hell your getting to sound like Stuart,( and I'm sure he never shot a deer over 150 yards in all his life) you will be trying to convince me to take kneck shots next, and i am dead against kneck shots on deer if i can take a body shot, even if he thinks anyone who won't take kneck shots must be a shit shot.

Jim Mitchel, light hunting rifles vs heavey sniping rifles, I've been wondering the same, is there a need for a darn heavey sniper rifle today? well I guess the bigger caliber(338/.50) rifles have good reason to be a bit on the heavey side, and I guess that heavey barrels tend to group better over longer strings of shots. Now I can see maybe why the Military sniper rifles are on the heavey side, but for LE, i figure a lighter rifle would do the job just as well. Now with hunting, once you have shot the game, you have to hump it out with you, which can be a right sod when lugging a heavey rifle, but with military sniping, you are perhaps lugging a shit load of kit around that no hunter ever would( unless you are called Marco). Now maybe I've become fat and lazy, but after seeing Marco and the other two, and Jon, lug them damn heavey rifles around last week, well, I will just keep my nice and light (air gun) hunting rifle,( or light weight sniper rifle as i may call it yet). A heavey hunting rifle is ok for overlooking large areas and not moving far, but for stalking and moving a ways,then you couldn't give me a heavey one. And for that one shot, a light accurate rifle, will perform just as well as a heavey accurate rifle. I guess with hunting, its personal preference and with sniping, you use what your issued.

Pete L  

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 10:50:21 (ZULU)

New M70 from G. Gardner...

I can't begin to say how pleased I am with Mike Rocks' barrel and George Gardners' workmanship. Outstanding!!!! What a rifle!!

Thanks, George and Mike.


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 11:46:24 (ZULU)

Hey Pete (and heavy vs. light),

I don't 'lug' my rifle anywhere.  I trip and skip as light as the breeze around the wood with my trusty 300 weighing in at 15.5lbs. empty.  I have used it for nearly all the buck season till, the stud ripped out (which is still fine, thanks again Pete).  Its 26" barrel is as handy as a pocket knife ;-).  I tend to find I shoot better with a heavy rifle, suppose it helps dampen the quivering bag of blood and bone holding it.  Besides I think I would be frightened of the 300 if it were in a light weight package.  It used to draw blood quite frequently when it had a S&B on it.


Jon Beardsley <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 12:15:33 (ZULU)


In a few weeks, you're gonna need all the cookies and milk you can get.

Start stocking up today :)))))))))))))))))))))))

KBAN (Kick Bitch's Ass Now ;)


I have seen only a fleeting moment of one Kat running through the yard this year... I can't figgure out if I got them all, or if the fat Lady has wised up, and is keepin' all of them (about eleventeen hundred) in her house... If so, the fumes must be awful ;)))


To any of you animal types (Not you party animals!!).

When a furry critter dies, how long does it take for the skin parasites (like fleas) to abandon the corpse??


And... don't listen to ol' 'yote Bate about sniper rifles... he wears his sniper riffle in a belt holster, under a light jacket!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 12:17:18 (ZULU)

My criteria for Sniper rifles, (I'll have you old boys know!) is that it can't be shorter than the barrel is around (not including the action of course).  It must weigh as much as the scope and not destroy the objective when it fires but it's ok if it just gets the paint.  It must also fold for glove box storage except in Yugo's where it must fit between the doors.

I prefer it doesn't stick lower than my boxer briefs unless it's a large caliber' so there!

Brogers < >
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 12:42:12 (ZULU)

Jon, i thought you did all your stalking from the van window?? that would explain you bieng happy with the 15lbs rifle..handy as a pocket knife, you watch to much Crockodile Dundee... you still on about that NXS.. I dunno, the S&B's are superior, full stop(period), ok I'll admit the NXS is a nice looking scope, and its probably one of the best target scopes about, but, the damn things don't have cm adjustments, which is a big minus, I've heared of tracking/adjustment problems (and Fat Boy's wasn't the first) 'they don't have all thier adjustment in one turn of the BDC.The glass will not be as good as the European stuff, and when all is said and done,, they are still a Hakko ! ha..and the only reason you got so close to that S&B is cos it was so beautifull..and you can get all the S&B scopes with slightly (magnum they call it) eye relief.

And what are you doing at the 'puter in tax payers time? you gov't officials have a charmed life.. ha ha, up early this morning??

Going back to that cannon of yours, Ive got some old pram wheels we could make a nice undercarriage with,? have you decided on getting that lovely cammo colour( just like mine) on your new stock? or are you going with the politicaly correct one tone (boring) colour..

Siniater Dave is right, we are lucky bastards, hunting with a sheep shagger, 3 dike fingering cloggies and a Bavarian yoedeling(jodeln?) Presack was a fine experience, ha.and it all came about because of this web site, when they have taken away all our guns and stopped us hunting, all we will have left is the memories, and last week will be one near the top of the list.

Longest shot last week was 245m, one shot one kill.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 13:10:15 (ZULU)

Hogs, big versus small.  Remember its what you do with it that counts.  Rock is 12 lbs with scope and bipod.  Thats pretty light but works like a charm.  17 lbs is insane yo carry unless its crew served

Catman, you seeding the ground with catnip?

Things are strange around here lately. Next I will here is Bill will have woke up and said "Christ I need to get a real scope"

Now for a little help from my friends.  I am looking for sources for:

Thermal imagers

PVS 17's

Suggestions for best NVD Binoculars

Intrusion devices for peremeter

All is legit with appropriate letter head requests

Email me if you have info.  Thanks


MikeMiller <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 13:17:20 (ZULU)

Weight in sniper rifles is a result of using stout stocks, scopes and barrels.  I prefer a rifle around 14-15 pounds as they tend to "settle" better and recover quicker than lighter rifles.  Now with kevlar stocks, fluted barrels and all that rifles can get lighter.  I still like some ass to a rifle and like them to be a little barrel heavy though.


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 13:58:16 (ZULU)

I'm gonna weigh my 30-06 tonight, it started life as a Remington custom shop mountain rifle with a kevlar stock (i paid $450 for it as it was an ugly duckling that nobody wanted at the IWA), I binned the kevlar stock cos it had the barrel bedded and was all over the place on the bipod, also the stock was a little thin, Ordered a HS Precision Thumbhole sporter stock for it. Its worn a few scopes, a 6-20x42 and a 6-20x50 leupold, a 3-12x50 S&B and currently wears a 3-12x50 PMII S&B in Badger rings,leupold weaver bases, a cut down AI alloy scope ring holding the ACI, a long swivel harris bipod, one of those Eagle stock pack things and a Niggolo neopren/leather sling, and has a fluted heym sporter weight barrel, i guess it weighes about 8-9 lbs all in, but i aint sure. I know i wouldn't like to carry a rifle weighing much more. My 308 sporter with the Hogue stock is a little lighter with the same scope onboard, and my 20"barreled tac rifle with the AICS is a heavey sod, also with same scope attached, I'll weigh all 3 and see what i'm carrying.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 14:20:13 (ZULU)

'lito wrote, "When a furry critter dies, how long does it take for the skin parasites (like fleas) to abandon the corpse??"

I shot a small four pointer in the Adirondacks a few years back.  It was late and I was several miles from camp so I gutted him and hoisted him into a tree for the night.  I returned in the morning to cart him back to camp.  When I lowered him to the ground I found a "knot" of ticks on the top of his head.  My guess is they all followed the body heat as it left the body.  Loss of body heat might be the key to parasites "moving on".

Ref: SWS Weight

I'll weigh in my rigs this afternoon.  I find Andy's M700VS to be just about perfect.  My M40A1 is just a little too heavy for long walks.  As far as "shoot ability" goes my LTR in .223 is the most accurate of the lot and it's the lightest.....go figure.

A heavy barrel on a SWS allows intensive firing during training and that might be one of the reasons for it.  It’s not so critical on a CBS in the field.  The heavier rifle takes out some of the pulse but adding weight has a point of diminishing returns and I suspect that point is around 12 or 13 pounds.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:26:48 (ZULU)

Jaeger - live in your protected world if you want...truth is, MOST folks these days have some form of STD...that is.. more than 50%.  Smart chicks dig medics... we know how to stay clean.

Sniper sustainment question...(LE or Mil)

You are operating in an "unfriendly place" sustain a wound that bleeds and hurts but doesn't compromise your ability to finish the operation (which will last another 36 hours).  Let's say it's a 6" long, deep laceration to your thigh secondary to an encounter with barbed wire.  You are not yet in your final position and a 75 yard low stalk is between you and that position.  The wound will require real care in a hospital when you get done.  What have you got in your EXISTING kit to stabilize or treat the wound and do you know how?

Lito - Fleas established on a critter will have a whole generation in "egg state" at any one time... thus, it's a period of weeks before a carcass can be considered flea-free.  Mange is some really nasty stuff... I think those suckers have a longer incubation months.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:31:14 (ZULU)

Pete L.......

             I've got a feeling that your .30-'06 is a bit heavier than your 8-9 lbs. guess;-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:37:00 (ZULU)

Jim M.

I'd say that with a 6" long wound that "will require real care in a hospital..." you must have been running all out for some reason or another and got yourself into some razor wire/concertina, not no steenkin barbed wire.  And also guessing that if it will require real care in a hosp., that probably means stitches.  Easy answer, apply tourniquate (sp?) just above said wound!  That'll stop the bleeding!  Seriously though, I don't carry any gauze dressings in my kit so hopefully direct pressure and pressure dressing would stop the bleeding.  But a 6" wound needing stitches prolly would take some time to stop.  Guess I'd be needing about 5 battle dressings to sop up the blood, and a bunch of gauze and tape over some antibiotic ointment afterwards.  Good question, got me thinking for a while today.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:56:10 (ZULU)

Turbine, My 155 Lapua load using Hodgdon H4895 will be super sonic and then some at 1K. My load clocks 2950 out of my Gardner built Mike Rock tubed (Sameless plugs) rifle. It groups around 1 1/4 to 1 3/4" at 500 with a fair degree of regularity. Ok, almost always. But it shoots 168's and 175's equally well. Just two days ago I shot a 1 1/4" group with 168's at 500.. Since Im mentioning 168's now I would like to say my ballistics program shows them to stay super sonic with room to spare at 1k. I think blaming the bullet for 50% of folks using it at a match with poor results has little to do with the bullet and more with the load. I have not shot them at 1K but I have used 175's and 155's at that distance with good results. If a person believes his load or gun is screwed up it won't shoot for that person because he lacks confidence in it. I was at the range with a friend last week who said his gun just wasn't shooting right and well he was miffed to be heck. I asked to shoot it. It had a 300 yard zero on it and the scope did not have target turrets so using hold over I rang the 500 yrd gong so often he told me to knock it off. As a result of these posts bashin the 168 I will use them at my next 1k match if I ever find another one I can get to...

HDR, Im going to Badlands in Oct. I'll try not to exhale while in Oklahoma. I don't want it to get to windy.

My modem went South on me and I should have it up and running this weekend. So if you all have been sending me viruseses. I will get them shortly. I went through DR with drawls and had to use the puter at work to read and post this.

Andy's Dad glad you are up and about.

Sinister Dave, You still happy with your RRA AR? I am thinking of getting a RRA Varmint upper to play with out to 1K but mostly 500 or less. Any thoughts.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
SA, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 15:56:47 (ZULU)

Fleas ? Mange ? AND ... a 6 inch gash ?

Jimbo, you ain't seein' my ex ole lady are ya ?

he hee.

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 16:07:22 (ZULU)

Ow! It hurts! Make it stop....

can't stop laughing.......

Jim Mitchell <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 16:34:11 (ZULU)

Alan; your right about 168 match king being in that load. After you said that I realized it was a hollow point and had been told it was a match king but had forgotten it. I got mine from a fella up at the Springs who claimed they were Olympic left overs or something like that, it's been 2 or three years now.

Steve;  you might ought to try those 168's before you go 1000 in a match. They should do it in a long barrel perhaps but mine don't in a 20. At 800 they get 5 or 6 inches but go to a yard at a 1000. The A-max doesn't always make 1000 either but it does good at 900.

Don't forget to ....

Thank me for that LTR boys. If you go back to archives you'll see where I posted how many years ago I petitioned Remington. They always said no but hell no till I finally got old enough they figured I had died and wouldn't bill them for the idea. Kevin you will also see how many times I've said 20" barrels are more accurate in that caliber. Don't know why.

Several months ago I posted that we were using air conditioner foam rubber tubing to make barrel shrouds to slip on barrels for protection sound reduction and camo improvments (paint or camo tape)for SS barrels. I've tried all of them on .223 to .308 and a few in between. Up to now we've never cataloged a problem of any kind except you need a little bit of tape on the end to keep the thing from slipping a few inches. The muzzle blast will make short work of it if it slips. The groups are unaffected as far as we can tell. That .35 group the other night was shot with shroud in place.  I've even used them with flutted barrels in 105 degree heat with no detected problem with heat. (that's probably something that's debatable since we didn't measure the temperature. But the groups stayed in there.)

Makes crawlin in and out of vehicles and rough places easier and protects as well as hides. Comes off for cleaning easily.

Real Scope;%^*%%^*&%%*&%*&%! Ok Mike I'm gonna go right down to ebay and bid on a Tasco Super Sniper! You are incurable!

We've killed out PD's by hitting a town real hard with rifles. Like 10 guns or so.  Many more were left but the fleas apprently migrate to the survivors and extra plague exposure or something kills every dog in the town in about 2 weeks or 10 days. No scientific proof and I've had it said to me that if there's any plague at all the whole town will die in just a few days.  Dunno the truth but I know where the abandoned towns are.

This doesn't happen every time (probably because of # fleas present

or infected ones anyway.) But one farmer came out to poison his a week following out attack and never put the stuff out cause he couldn't find a dog.  

Bill Rogers <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 16:47:38 (ZULU)

Question for the experts:

What is the best tool available for helping to make sure your scope is level when mounting it?  I've been eyeballing it, but something tells me I'll be better of at the longer ranges using a more scientific method.

Thanks for any help.


John Bechtell <>
Gettysburg, PA, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 17:25:35 (ZULU)


>>>>You are operating in an "unfriendly place" sustain a wound that bleeds and hurts but doesn't compromise your ability to finish the operation The wound will require real care in a hospital when you get done.  What have you got in your EXISTING kit to stabilize or treat the wound and do you know how?<<<<


Let me complicate your scenario ;))


You're now tending to your wound in "unfriendly" territory when you're swarmed by mosquitoes. Before leaving camp, you recall overhearing some of your companions talking about some of the local livestock having to be put down because of the West Nile Virus. It just occurs to you that you're a Type I diabetic.

Now watcha gonna do?

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 17:51:17 (ZULU)

John Bechtell - Hang a rock in a tree from a long string, out about 30 feet from you.

loosely mount the scope on the rifle ... level your rifle with a bubble level .. look through the scope at the string..I bet you've got it from here.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 17:53:20 (ZULU)

Hey what's up with all these trick medical questions.

1)   Stop the bleeding.

2)   Time to get out of Dodge before plan A goes to shit.

3)   E&E and hope you make it before you bleed to death or they pick up your blood trail.

4)   Come back and play another day.

War is hell but combat is a Mother F$%ker.  My hats off to all you heros.

De Oppresso Liber..

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 19:00:28 (ZULU)

Bry Insane:  Yep son,'re fittin' in fine.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 19:06:23 (ZULU)

The trick medical question was intended to get folks thinking...and to help improve the way the operators might deal should a problem arise...

Great big cuts are a lot like bullet or shrapnel wounds... you need to control the bleeding (this is obvious), but you also have to address temporarily closing the wound and dealing with the pain (to finish the mission). If you don't have a hospital handy, you might want to keep some field expedient kit around to hold you over...

100 MPH tape works good for wound closures, as does electrical tape... keep some on hand.  For pain, a triple antibiotic ointment is a good start.  A little bit of topical lidocaine gel works well (if you can talk your local nurse or PA out of it), as does the new ambesol in a pinch...something to consider when making up your kit, all this stuff is small, light and easy to get.  Hemostats are also available, and although I rarely use em' ... there really isn't a substitute when you got a cut artery that direct pressure won't handle.

Mark -

-diabetic operator???

-Compare the lethal stats for west nile to might be surprised with what you find... press hype at it's best.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 21:06:30 (ZULU)

Mark W

Just experienced something similar with the bugs.  Rolled my truck at about 65mph into an agricultural area, Middle O' nowhere.  Pretty good gash on the head among other trauma, able to exit the vehicle and crawl out to the shoulder of the road and wait, and wait, and wait. In and out of consciousness over a few hours.

I was being swarmed by hornets and red ants and not able to do a lot about it.  I remember being pissed off and telling the bugs to wait 'till I was dead to eat me!  A real cirlce of life kinda experience.  I ended up taking off my shirt to cover my head - the blood was drawing critters from everywhere!  

After that, gauze sponges and wraps are in the kit.  Clean it, wrap it, or you become part of the food chain.  It was absolutely amazing the insects that appeared, nasty ones.  From an operational standpoint, those critters will definitely blow your ability to remian concealed and even function.

So the point is - clean and dress pays more dividends than just enhanced recovery at a future date, it may be what gets you through the next few hours.

It's hard to tell the new head trauma from the old head trauma (another story) Oh well - never was that sane anyway :0


Greg Ghironzi <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 21:31:34 (ZULU)

6" gash-That sounds much worse then the disabling hang nail that nearly got me in in the big one '97'.  If I had the 6" gash I would be lying there whimpering and asking for more morphine wanting some lovely lady to give me sympathy while watching a portable DVD of a good Duke movie.  Actaully  how about that medical grade superglue (don't now the real name) I've seen that stuff work miracles on cuts in the ER.  It sure would be handy in a field kit.  One MD told me in essence it really is superglue with antibiotics added.  The down side...he said it is still fairly costly.

I tried some of the Federal/LC XM193 5.56 (white box stuff) today on a chrono.   It suprized the heck out of me by only having a 8 fps spread in 20 rounds fired.  Shot OK+/- in my service rifle too.

I went to the desert today and humped around the foot hills carrying my 300 WM with light kit and made a discovery.  That problem I had with the cartlage in my knee, you know the one I planned on healing by it's self ....didn't...Ouch!!   I'm now going to go mash up a whole bottle of Ibu and mix it with Jacks for a good IV.  

Warning! Ingestion of this product may be unsettling to the bowels.

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, Land of bright sun and expensive houses, USA - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 21:43:28 (ZULU)

GG:  "A real cirle of life kinda experience."

Good one.

The following is a link to subscribe to Rumsfeld's, Franks' and Wolfowitz's press briefings.  Anything important comes out here minus the screaming, biased hype:

CDC' <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 22:24:32 (ZULU)

MIKE MILLER:  Mikey, you been shootin some AIs lately ?  What did you think ? Group sizes ?

Can you build one of your slings (IN GREEN) with MP5/AI hooks ?

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 22:27:16 (ZULU)

Brian,shot a couple of AI's.  Very well made but on the havy side.  Would have to use that trigger a bunch to get used to it. Very nice overall.

Yes I make slings for them.  I can make either the Quick Cuff or Slip Cuff for it.  75.00 for Quick Cuff M24 varient plus 5.00 shippin or 50.00 plus 5.00 shipping for the Slip Cuff model.  Get ahold of me for brother discount.  I mean Christ got to do better for any handicapped with size 9's.LMAO

MikeMiller <>
CA, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:11:23 (ZULU)

Steve, my PWA (now RRA) rifles are keepers.  If you set up an AR with a 24 or 26-inch barrel you should have no problems out to 600 with iron sights or glass out to 600 yards with Sierra 77s or Hornady 75 BTHPs (magazine-length cartridges).

Gotta get momma a new car and hafta put a new clutch in the truck.  Man, when it rains it pours.

Sinister Dave <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:13:12 (ZULU)


Just got back from a hunting trip.

Killed a 270lb wild hog about a 100yds shot downhill. Shot him right in the eye. He never even wiggled. Just fell over.

Killed a 140lb Axis. I wanted to see what the bullet would do in a shoulder shot. Perfect placement. Never found the bullet. But there was a 2.5-3" exit wound. Got both lungs and the heart.

300WinMag, N180BT Bullets with R22 are quite accurate and devasting.

Any way the freezer is full and its almost dinner time.

Lito, If you find alot of bugs on an animal carcass that you just killed. I wouldn't touch it or eat it. Most wild animals are cleaner that you think. Didn't find any bugs on either the Hog or Axis. It is the Middle of Aug in Southwest Texas after a good flood. Mesquitos were bitch. The Dogs had fleas and ticks, but the Hog and Axis were bug free.    



Bryan <>
CA, - Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:25:27 (ZULU)

Brian and Mike,

- the mods that Mike and Jerry R. recommned (drilling and tapping) my AI stock made it a lot more friendlier to slinging that the atrocious hook ups that came with it.

 That way I can use a normal Mike sling with out any difficulties and the placement was WAY better too.

Dave, 24-26????? geez thats a long tube

I shoot a 14.5" at 600m am I doing something wrong? (LOL)

I am aiming to get an SPR setup one of these days - but...

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 23:30:11 (ZULU)


>>>-diabetic operator???<<<

Sure, why not?

Happens all the time. There's lots in the military with pre-existing medical conditions. Examples: the LT in "Blackhawk Down" having an epileptic grand mal seizure; remember toward the end of the movie, the private taking a breath on his Ventolin metered dose inhaler (asthma); Carlos Hathcock had Parkinsons. I remember an episode in MASH where an EVAC helicopter pilot had Type I diabetes. Kept it secret until caught.  

>>>-Compare the lethal stats for west nile to might be surprised with what you find... press hype at it's best.<<<

Actually the reason that I brought this up is for the fact that the West Nile Virus has become a clear and present danger in this area in just the last week. Headlines are full of stories involving this Virus including our small town newspaper. Lots of livestock and horses have had to be destroyed in a 5 county area in just the last several weeks. 2 cases involving a truck driver and 6 yr. old girl in just the last week. Whether or not hype, it remains to be seen. What's so unusual about this, is the fact that we're a dry, arid region.

Also, the reason that I threw in the Type I diabetes is for the fact that the West Nile Virus has more effect on those with a weak immune system. Diabetes being one of many.

Joe S.

>>>I'm now going to go mash up a whole bottle of Ibu and mix it with Jacks for a good IV.<<

I hope you are joking....surely. It's no secret that large amounts of alcohol and tylenol is considered to be a suicide cocktail. It's one of those EMS beware kind of things. Of course Ibuprofen and acetametaphine (tylenol) are 2 different drugs, but please don't mix with alcohol.


>>>Rolled my truck at about 65mph into an agricultural area, Middle O' nowhere.  Pretty good gash on the head among other trauma, able to exit the vehicle and crawl out to the shoulder of the road and wait, and wait, and wait. In and out of consciousness over a few hours.<<<


This is the reason I carry my medic and trauma gear (including oxygen) wherever I go. I once worked a wreck and had absolutely nothing in the way of equipment. There were 5 involved including one critical. A Medic w/o his ambulance is pretty limited. Training w/o equip. is pretty useless.

I bet you had a lot to ponder about in those moments...besides the bugs ;))

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 00:03:01 (ZULU)

Medic Jim...

When in the bush for an extended bit, I have a ton of medical stuff, and usually carry Demarol (sp?), or other heavy pain killers, and a general Anitbiotic "x"-cillen, too.

I would clean it up with betadine, splice it together with crazy glue style breathing ties, and then lay a betadine patch over the ties, and then wrap the sucka in steril gauze, but not tight enough to impead circulation.  I think that would keep me going for 36 hours.


JB... a plumb line!


AceHigh John... The doggie pack (er... Kitty pack) got here today... it's a friggin' riot.  IF the fat lady sees me in it, I'm bustacated... :((

Thanks Dudeski ;)))



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 00:25:15 (ZULU)

Kevin: Are the AI sling mods (namely placement) you spoke of on the site or the web somewhere ?  Is this a do at home project ?

Mike, how'd the AIs shoot ?  Did you shoot any in tree oh ate ?

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 00:42:45 (ZULU)

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 01:44:48 (ZULU)


Interesting posts:

Let's see, about the 6" cut. I believe the original plan was to finish the mission. NOT do an E & E as suggested. I carry a large bandage in my kit and some adhesive tape. Sterilize the wound as well as possible, cover with the bandage and get on with it...if possible.

I've got some "interesting" scars, but nothing that long...scars that is...

Rifle weights: My tactical guns go in the 14-16 pound range. My 6.5 goes right at 15 pounds "all up". Like others I like the nose  heavy feel, but after a day in the woods a M700 LTR or lighter gun starts looking good. Personally, I think something in the 10-12 pound range would do well. My personal hunting rigs go from 8-9 1/2 pounds fully loaded.

My new match grade M1A is superb. Weighs like a standard M1A, but shoots 168 Sierras under 1" when I do my part. Can't wait to take it across the course.

Have to get one of Mikes new slings on order for my M1A. Then it'll be perfect. As always favored the M1A/M14 for weight and balance. The new M16A2 is hard to beat, as well. Like both, but if forced to select one I'd go .308 anytime. You can hunt with it and you can hunt with it...;-)

Saw a new Corrections Officer T-shirt. Pictured a prison in the background with the phrase: "If you build them, they will come." Unfortunately, to damn true.

Start the Academy on and games. Bet this old codger is gonna be stiff and sore for awhile.

Rifle range tomorrow, time permitting. Have ammo, so there is really no excuse.

My best to all.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 02:00:04 (ZULU)

Brian - in the review under the AICS there are some shots of the additions.  If one has a tap set one could do it oneself - just then add the uncle mikes qd swivels and then add Mikey M's sling and you are good to go.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 02:07:40 (ZULU)

Sinister - Good to see you today. Forgot to say congrates on the shooting.  Was a tad on the winded side from making targets for the new guys today.  Man was it hot!  Will let you know if I can get Momma to agree to a tandem, but it is not looking hopeful.  Bounce the idea off her the next time you see her.

Most of the guys that I know really like the AI rifles.  My complaint is really from my habit of placeing my shooting thumb along side of the stock instead of over it.  I got in this habit because of my tendency to "choke the sucker" while shooting and this stopped that tendency.  The AI stock does not allow for thumb placement anywhere but inside the "hole".  Personnally did not mind the trigger, only the stock.  My biggest problem with the AIs is the cost.  Man are they expensive!  First AI I ever fired was in 1985 and it grouped like crap.  Then we found out that it had about 400 rounds through it and had never been cleaned.  A little Shooters Choice, Sweets, and JB and it shot good groups for its abuse.  Yes Bill and Catplugger, JB. :-)

Mike - What's wrong with size 9?  That's my size!  :-)

Alan - You talking about the old M118 Special Ball or the old old M118 National Match?  The M118 National Match was actually pretty good ammo, well it won a goodly number of matches before M852.  The M118 National Match became Special Ball in 86, I do believe, and the transition was very painful.  The first LOT we got would not shoot within 4 moa (1 inch groups at 25 meters) when we tested our M21s before a course.  Now that stuff never really got good and always had a flyer problem.  When the boxes didn't have glue stuck to the cartridge bases.

The real reason for heavy military sniper rifles is the three steel ball bearing rule.  Of course then again the match rifles are all heavy too aren't they?  Hmmmmmm, maybe a link there?  Out of curiosity, how many AR shooters have the stock weights to make them heavier?  Yes, I have mine.

Scott - Don't worry, I have found that I always shot real tight groups.  Then I shoot that dam second round.  Of course that is like dry firing.  Man that weapon is rock steady, then I put in that dam 50 pound bullet.

Gooch - You are getting easy on me.  I can't be getting that old am I?

Hold Hard Guys.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 02:10:18 (ZULU)

Sinister, Car problems? I know your pain. I may have to sell my Savage 10FP to help offset the cost of the RRA 24" Varmint, may just git the upper first. Gunna scope it and play with it at all ranges to see how it handles at all the way to 1K. I know its lacks down range umph, but I just play, and shoot to learn. I usaully foget what I learn but it keeps me going. I just had t put new wheel bearings, ball joints, brakes, shocks and front crank seal on my Dodge after only 144K. Dang, you think they would last. I only drive 14 miles of dirt road every day.

Yote Bait, I dont care how I score with the 168s. I just want to see how the score varies from my normal or expected score. Plus I aint got a range out to 1K to play on, so the test has to be done at a match. The down side is I will miss the next 1K match in Waco. I may try to make a shoot in Mineral Wells but thats a real long drive. I may play with them when I go to Badlands in Oct. Dang they do shoot great out of my M1A Nasty Match. Shot 6 in to just half of the X ring during a play session seems a shame to use just the X ring though. I will get over it :)

Dirty Steve, computerless for now, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Anto, Texas, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 04:06:45 (ZULU)

Had a question about long range scopes.  I looked at getting the Bushnell 6-24x40 mil-dot.  Does anyone know what magnification to use the mil-dot at on this type of scope?  Also wanted suggestions on a good scope in this power range with mil-dot.



Ryan <>
Las Vegas, NV, U.S.A. - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 04:07:49 (ZULU)

Master Rick,

            Yeah, I was talking about the infamous SB stuff. Never was able to get ahold of any of the old,old ammo. I'm using a Ray-Vin in the buttstock of my HBAR. Thinking of adding some adhesive wheel weights under the handguards. Might just 100mph them to the outside 'til I'm sure.

Bryan Sain,

           For the Uncle Mikes QD studs, you'll need a 10x32 tap (if you only buy one type, don't get the bottoming tap). It'll take a No. 21 drill bit to make the proper size hole. For other brand studs YMMV.

BTW - Didn't have a clue that you were married to her also;-))


          The skinny that I once got on their erratic subsonic performance (doing funny things at transitional speed) was that they were designed with the angle of their boat tail at a too acute angle of 11 degrees. When Sierra designed the boat tail on the 175MK, they went to 9 degrees which cured the problem. Or is this just scuttlebutt?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 05:02:34 (ZULU)

Alan, you was right,, imagine my surprise when i gets my 30-06 hung on the spring balance last night, hell it runs an even 12 lbs, without ammo, shit, maybe i'm not as lazy as i thought, i figure if my hunting rifle is 12lbs then Marco's and Jon's rifles must be getting nearer 20 lbs cos they feel a whole lot heavier, i wonder what the difference in weight is between a 24" sporter barrel and a 24"heavey barrel.(i know it depends on the contour, but give or take a few ounces, what 'll it be) I didn't weight the two 308's, i don't wanna know what the one with the AICS weighs, i'll never carry it again.

If i never used the meat from animals that where bug infested here, I'd go hungry, the deer in Germany are all covered in ticks, I didn't see many in Scotland though,(higher elevation, harsher climate, still have a winter), Also see warble fly larve quite often over here.

In Scotland the darn midges, fly's and mossies realy swarm when you are gutting a deer, they must be able to smell it for miles, They didn't bother me otherwise, exept for the one time on the shovel recce( taking a dump), but has anyone else ever noticed, when you have gutted a deer, your farts smell exactly the same for at least a day after, no wonder my ass got bit.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 05:30:16 (ZULU)

Rick wrote to Dave, "Will let you know if I can get Momma to agree to a tandem, but it is not looking hopeful.

Relax everybody they're talking about parachute jumping, I think. ;-)

I've been up since 02:00 I feel ok but just can't sleep.  Oh well I guess I'll go pull the handle on my Dillon for a while.  It's like counting there's an idea.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 07:40:20 (ZULU)

just nipped out from work to pick up the Scotland photo's, made some nice ones. now i have to figure out how to use the damn scanner.

Anybody seen this AI rifle with the rounded action /AW stock, police/civialin model, just bieng released for sale here, i forget what they call it, but i read about it some where, retail here is about $4000 i think.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 08:09:58 (ZULU)


>"What's wrong with size 9?"<

Nothing my size 14's won't fix... I don't store them in shoe trees... I store them in London Bridge drag-bags... HA! ;))  At least you can go into a shoe store and get what you want... I go in, and the guy drags out a dusty box from 1949 :((

JB paste... Double HA!!



Be careful about getting the bushnell 6x24.  It has a total elevation of only 26 moa from top to bottom.  You will need to use the Burris "Signature ZEE" mounts, with the adjustable plastic shells, in order to get past 500 yds... also, the elevation and windage knobs are the worst marked I have seen in 45+ years... I have owned one for many years, and it is difficult to make accurate adjustments in the field... I got the tee-shirt!

This scope definitly should NOT be considered as a longrange scope.



The angle on the 168s is 13 degrees, and that is too sharp for the air to follow it, plus the boat tail is too short to help flight, though it aids in seating.  They fly like a flatbase.

So do the Hornadys that have tiny, short boat tails... but the ones that have loooong boat tails, like the 75 A-Max are a whole different story.  They never slow down ;)



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 10:25:57 (ZULU)

Hey guys

Check this link out.

This is about a person in Wisconsin (sorry to say) who fell for the Nigerian scam.

This is my hometown newspaper.


John Hugdahl <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 11:02:07 (ZULU)


Like I said, I think it's been on a hanger for awhile, but considering the content, that's not hard to understand. That is a "one man" only kinda shirt. Maybe catwoman will wash it for you?? :)))

Jim, MarkW.

Turn 2 tampons end to end and duct tape in wound channel. Leave string hangin out for attachin' more ghillie cover. If it hurt so bad I needed Demerol, the insects wouldn't have a chance. The enemy will find me first by triangulation of vocalization.


This new rifle is sumpin else. I think I must be a 3moa shooter w/ a 2.5 moa rifle, or whatever. It is hard to shoot poorly with it.

See ya,  


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 11:53:33 (ZULU)


I don't like the stock on this M70. The palm/grip is unacceptable. What stock is the preferred replacement? I would prefer not to have to bed the action, if possible.

I measured the magazine well, 2.685", did I read here that you can load a little beyond 2.800 in a M70? The max seat depth on this barrel for a 175SMK is 2.835 to the rifling. Haven't tried 'em that long to see if accuracy improves, but if necessary will they fit in the mag well?


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 12:14:04 (ZULU)

Kevin OTGWN, why you mess with those uncle mikes sling swivel studs? I'm of the opinion that if you're going to be a bear in the woods, be a griz. Wichita sling hardware is the best out there, and leaves the others in the dust. Literally because it won't break. When you have a $1.25 sling swivel turn that nice stick on it's nose, you'll wish you had some too. I'm convinced that's why they now have the option of that locking deal on them, too many nice sticks on their noses. If you can thread for one, you can thread for the other.

Sinister Dave, I'll put in the clutch and loan a car for a couple of months, in trade for one of those black rifles of yours. Not that I want the rifle, I just think retiring your M-14 would be hard on it's morale, and we don't want that now do we? Besides, who needs black rifles?

Jaeger <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 12:58:22 (ZULU)


What M70 stock is it that you don't like??

If it's a Stealth, then you are a rare breed, cuz everyone has been copying that stock for years.

If you need to go to something else, you will have to have it bedded... even the aluminum based H-S stocks need to be glass bedded for best results.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:14:20 (ZULU)

Just weighed my box stock Rem 700P,MK 4 M3,Badgers,and Harris bipod on the bathroom scales. It came in at 11 1/2 Lb including the camo paint job.

TonyM <>
USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:17:24 (ZULU)

Now you tell me Catflamer! So I guess that's why my re-entry 168's go to hell in a handbasket at 900 something.  I just gotta sit down and order some 175.... naw I think I'll just abandon .308's and so go to .22's.

I use the sticks on big game anyhow these days, I hate wearin orange.

Poachers look like fools in Orangeatan Orange.. Gettin too old for tach matches and such other belly foolishness anyhow. I've got .223s that will dig a coyotes grave at 600 about ever shot. My 22-250 will do better than that. Wadda I need with a .308.

Jaeger; I didn't know you were such a hot auto mechanic. Sinister Dave your not the only Sinister one around this hide. He'll have the barrel wore out before you figure out it's a "borrowed" clutch. Jaeg, you've got to see a doctor about this gas problem you have. See what you've done... Wes, is gettin it too. Kinda like the skeeter virus only spread by mouth.

John' wid da 70. The General rule you can apply to modern Winchesters and Remingtons and maybe some others. Load it till it will function just barely in the magazine. If the bolt closes easy. You have the right length.

Bill Rogers <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:24:07 (ZULU)

CatPlugger:  Tell us again about how you remove the block from the HBV mag to let us use a reasonable OAL.  Does the Stealth work the same way?

In the last few days' news:  Iraq is moving lots and lots of stuff around at their NBC sites elsewhere, Iran and Saudi are getting REAL squirrely and Scowcroft warns of "Armegeddon" if we move against Sadaam.  Condeleza Rice says we're going in anyway.  What the Hell else are we going to do?

Victor Davis Hanson intelligently makes the case for putting Sadaam's head on a pike:

Sounds good to me.

CDC' <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 13:26:50 (ZULU)

Hey all, got an interesting phone call last night from a friend in Alaska.  Seems he bought a certain brand of rifle (I don't want to say which one until he talks to them today - but it doesn't start with an S or a W and is a major US manufacturer) in .338 Win Mag from the Walmart in Eagle River.  Yesterday was his second trip to the range and while on the 300m line, he was worked the action to eject spent brass and...

The bolt handle broke off!

I don't know exactly what the deal was, but from his very pissed phone call (I talked him out of getting a Win mod 70) it sounded like it broke right off where the bolt and bolt handle are joined.

Has anyone else heard about something like this happening or is this a super bad luck fluke?  I've been a lifelong supporter of this company, but I'm horrified by this.  I realize defects sometimes slip thru QA, but this is ridiculous.

He can't access SC from work, so if anyone has any info for him, please send him an email at

Larry Wollner <>
Hudson, Wi, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:01:30 (ZULU)

Looking for suggestions on a quality spotting scope for elk and caribou hunting, and the range of course.  I'm kind of settled on a Leupold 12-40X60 unless someone has a better idea.  Also, where is the best price available?

Thanks in advance everyone.

Peter in MN  

Peter <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:32:27 (ZULU)


      I was at a very reputable full-service gunshop with a friend who just had to have one of those (then) new M700 Mountain Rifles in .22-250. While the guy at the counter was pulling several new ones right out of their boxes so my buddy could have his pick of wood, I was working the action and checking out the trigger on one of 'em when guess what? Since then I've heard about several of them bolt handles falling off, one on a custom shop Model 7. The problem must go back aways, 'cause I picked up a M721 at a gun show a few years back for the right price, and there were definate signs of a gunsmith brazing job at the junction of the bolt to the root of the bolt handle!


       I know what you mean about the Uncle Mikes QD swivels. I almost lost a rifle on a hunt about 20yrs. ago when a swivel (pre locking screw) popped loose. The new 'mil-spec' swivels address some of their problems, but not all.

       However, the main reason for my post is your comment about the Wichita swivels. I had an M40A1 built by Terry Cross (great piece of work, BTW) and McMillan required that the Wichita installation be performed during the buildup of the stock at their factory. I remember that Sierra Echo ran into that problem after he bought a pair of Wichita's to install on his already finished M25 -McMcmillan. Have you or others devised a method of retrofitting them that doesn't compromise their integrity? Inquiring minds, etc., etc.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:48:16 (ZULU)

Larry Wollner - take a look at this mod.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:50:29 (ZULU)


Anyone have a good source of military camo goretex gear (parkas, boots etc)  Looking for high desert type camo.

Rick.  I aint easy on you.  You are just such a tough and mean man.


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 14:57:41 (ZULU)

Hi Fellas,

I'm crawling for help again.  I'm still tinkering with RL25 for my 300WM due to the large quantity I have of it and the lack of anyone to buy it off me.  Anyway, I've managed to get a load that I am more than happy with during initial tests. The load grouped 4 shots at just over 1/4" at 100yds, and I'm not super shot.  Problem is the velocities are still variable and I was wondering if this will affect long range shooting; will I get vertical strings due to the difference and will the wind affect them differently (I would think yes)?  The 4 shots were as follows- 3109, 3097, 3064, 3070.

Any help will, as always, be much appreciated.

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:05:51 (ZULU)

I have a GA Precision built AICS Remington.  I searched around for a while for the hooks to make a sling to work with the stock.  Miller said that he found some hooks and could make me a sling.  I recieved the sling a few days ago.  The hooks are very similar to the hooks that are used in Eagle's AR slings.  

Bottom line:  The sling that Miller makes for the AICS should work just fine.  I have not tested it at the range yet, but it works for dry firing at my apt. (:


Michael Roberts <>
MidMO, MO, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:19:34 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

Until we get another riffle raffle goin' here, I found another really nice one.  Check this one out.....

It looks pretty schweeet...



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:45:50 (ZULU)

Jaeger - Sorry I used the uncle mikes QD generically my mistake.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 15:48:01 (ZULU)

On the 168s at long range.

These little puppies have been shot at 1000 yds (and 1000 meters) for a hell of a long time, and have done well.  Some years back, some yahoo invented the theory that bullets going "sub-sonic" was a terrible thing... and the bullets would buffet like the wings on a jet.

Now... nobody had problems before this invention of dubious wisdom, but once published, Oh wonder of wonders... it started happing all over the place... guys that shot a 114/200 at 1000 were now saying, "Damn, my bullets must have gone sub-sonic, or I woulda had a 199/19x".

Ain't that a wonderful excuse!

Now...the clasic 308 load of the 168 @ 2600 is real light in the loafers... a truely 300 and 600 yd "mid-range" load.

IF you are going to shoot at 1000, push them puppies out of the barrel a lot faster... maybe 2750 if you can get it (Not with no "LTR" ;).

First, you get there faster, for less wind and stuff, plus the 12" twist, at 2600 is maybe a bit marginal, so you can use the extra spin.

Consider this... those silly guys in Scotland, (the ones that wear dresses) shoot .308s and .303s at 2,400 yards all the time... and the bullets are sub-sonic for about 80% of the trip, and they don't tumble, buffet, or any other such crap.  Ask Sinister, he knows about it too!

Ya' think it's cuz those guys never read that theory??  Reading will ruin ya; every time ;))


'yote Bate...

>"So I guess that's why my re-entry 168's go to hell in a handbasket at 900 something. "<

No, you dumb bunny... it's cuz you need a longer barrel than 6" to get to 900 yds... try 9" for your Palma riffle ;))


CDC... I did that a while back.  It was very long, so later, I will do a search for it (hint "Spot" and "Weld" should find it ;).

If I can't find it, I will re-write it again.


Speakin' of bolt handles falling off from the "You know who" company...

I just ordered my first Remington "Off the Rack" riffle in about 12 years... a M700 Classic in .221 Fire-Ball, and do I have my fingers (and toes) crossed that I don't get a POS.

It's a damn shame when you order a Remington rifle, and have to pray that it ain't broke badd, right from the box :(((



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 16:08:43 (ZULU)

PETER:  That would be the AE.  Two position safety.  Round receiver with a big massive recoil lug instead of part of the receiver actually serving that purpose. Comes with a 1913 rail screwed on.

Everything else is pretty much the same.  Black sides. About 2100 US dollars.  Friends that have 'em say you can't tell the difference for the bucks.  Accuracy is the same.  Made to target the poor assed cop market we are always whining about.  

AWP gets you three position safety, a square receiver and full military specification if you need it. Comes with a 30mm one piece mount at twice the price.

AI was for a while using US made bbls. for the guns here.  They still have a small selection of them left in all standard contours etc. and will build you a "kit" gun as they call it.  Most complete rifles are English barreled now and "true" AIs if you want to look at it that way for all you purists out there or if you plan on selling it. I guess the thinking is that pure English may get you a little more for it.

6 of one.  Half a dozen of the other. They say they shoot. An AWP is probably fixing to be my next one. Scope is the big decision.

Later Pete !

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 17:24:42 (ZULU)


I don't want this question to start a war of posts but ...  you guys know what I do for a living and the distances (short to medium) and conditions (often at night) we operate at.

I got a new AWP coming and I need a scope.  SIMRAD capable (maybe).

Which ONE scope would you recommend that I can use both for Long Distance shooting like you guys (my heroes) and the Police Mission stuff I do for work most of the time.

I relize that LE Sniping and Camp Perry are really at opposite ends of the spectrum but give me your best shot. Doesn't have to be a long winded reply.  Just make, model and reticle.

You can shoot it to me off roster if you think it will start a bunch of shit.  

The Ford, Chevy, Dodge arguement ain't got shit on this one.

Thanks guys,


brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 17:44:23 (ZULU)

Lito, Dang read your post and thought, Dang another sensible guy agrees with me on the 168's. I was crushed to see it was you ;) I found two matches at LT Dillon to shoot in October, I will use the 168 in the LR (800, 900 & 1K) match and the 155 load for the seperate 1K match. At 2700+ fps from a 1-11.25 twist I see no reason why the 168's wont fly well. I think the bad rap they got is from poor loading not poor bullets. About bad things happening when the go subsonic. The fly boys thought that going SS in a jet would kill the man and rip the aircraft part.

Why wont Sierra update the 168's BT angle?

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:04:12 (ZULU)

kittywhacker, I wasn't going to say anything about 168's shooting fine for me, glad you did. But then again, I'm much more likely to cuss the wind than blame my bullet.

Kevin OTGWN, not a problem, no skin off my nose, or finish off my barrel LOL

Alan, no worries. Where there's a Will, there's a Rogers. Nope, Where there's a BILL there's a Rogers. Nope, where there's a Bill, it's my MAILBOX. Yeah. And there's a WAY those get to my mailbox, but I don't pick on the mail lady, 'cause she carries a mac 10. OK. Sorry. I was just mentioning that because as I recall - I don't own one - AI stocks are basically aluminium sticks with panels on 'em, right? OK, so the Wichita hardware has threads on it, basically using the swivel loop itself as a bolt head. The whole thing McMillan does is thread that stud into a plate in the stock. If the whole stock IS a plate, well, I'd think it would be easy. It would be a matter of drilling into that aluminum stock, threading it, putting some loc-tite in there, and putting in the Wichita. No biggie. For the rest of us without aluminium stocks, it becomes a little tougher LOL. Best way is to order it that way (we do ALL shoot McMillans, right?), but it CAN be done otherwise. Just more work. All you need is a router, some plate, and epoxy. And skill. Lots more skill than I've got. Basically doing what Mac would have done in production, just with more effort.

Bill, now, you quit that. First I'm tellin' fibs about wanting cookies and milk, now I'm stealing car parts? HA! I don't look at it like that. It's just taking parts from temporarily mobile self resupplying unauthorized recycled parts centers! Now you'll be telling everyone that I cheat at cards and only shoot to the south to keep that perpetual wind (the suction from OK) at my face 8p

Jaeger <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:09:05 (ZULU)

Larry W.,

 We are neighbors.  I'll be in Hudson sometime next week as a matter of fact.  Checking up on your local (Army) recruiting station over by the Farm and Fleet.  Maybe you can stop by for a hello and a cup of java --or hell, I'll buy ya lunch!  Give me a email and we can detail link-ups...


 My VXII vs M3 reticle question that was universally ignored (ya'll thunk I'se dumber n' dirt, didn't ya?)  was specifically "are the size  of the two versions' MIL-Dots the same (3/4 vs 1 mil dots)?  Dug around and answered on my own question though...sorry if it sounded was the way I phrased the original post, I think...

 I sprung the (old-new) winney stealth 223 on my wife last night (anniversery-after the gems).  Best way to sneak a new gun into the house I have ever come up with.  Or so I thought...she took it out to the range today for break in.  I'm thinking that we have a convert on our hands...which over time means more sticks for "us" as opposed to "me"!  

Looking to buy a bigger safe...any thoughts on champion models (victory 25)?  Don't really wanna spend more than 1.5k unless you all tell me that anything less is a waste of money!

Two of four fractures are healed in my right hand...what a waste of a perfectly good target season!  At least Nicole is healing faster than my metacarsals!  I'll take that exchange anyday!!!!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:17:36 (ZULU)

Peter (On the spotter for elk and the range.  I've never hunted caribou.):  The big Loopy is, well, big.  Elk mountains are steep.  When you put an elk down, you have to haul it plus the gear you hauled up.  The big Loopy also costs significant $$.  

The fixed 25 Loopy is tough, small, light and much cheaper.  25X works for your wind calls.  

Just my thoughts.  

CDC' <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:36:14 (ZULU)

Lito; how my gonna lug around a 9" Sniper rifle man? That thing would weigh upwards of 3lbs. Stick way out there where a coyote could smell it.

You remember ole George Herters, I think there's still a company he started going around. He was an ole German Gun Smith type that asserted that sound barrier transistion ruined everything. He maintained it happened to 150's out of M1's about 850 yards but get this... it straightened back out on the original path by 1000. HOw the heck it is supposed to know where it's supposed to be is beyond me....but it went something like this. It rides the shock wave like a surfer rides a wave but eventually is back to the surface at the same place since all the energy is aimed at that point from the muzzle on out acknowledgeing the forces of wind and gravity. That ought to give somebody a migrain. ...Ok be that as it may.

MY snub nose sniper rifle shoots 168's right in the 10 ring at 800 yards. 900 is erratic sometimes 2 right together and one to hell and gone. At 1000 it's a yard size group most of the time. My .223 snubbie shoots OK till it hits the back side of the barrier and it goes to hell. It will outshoot my 22-250 to 550 or so and then the 22-250 eats it's lunch till it finds the barrier.

Now switch to VLD's A-max168's and  they don't shoot with the match kings at 500 but after 900 the snubbie .308 shoots 900 yards less than 9" and 1000 puts about 3 out of 5 right where they belong. What do you'all think. Is this my imagination? Or is it bearing out this business about sound barriers. do ya'll think theres nothin to it?

Now I've not shot a lot beyond the 800 yard. Half mile line  but I seem to be getting my lessons about it lately.

Bill Rogers <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 18:52:26 (ZULU)


 For the best production glass available goto:

 I'm pretty sure they are Simrad compatable.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 19:22:07 (ZULU)

On the 168s,

Does anyone know what boat tail angle the Nosler J4 168s are? I was just about to write this when I saw Bill mention the 168 VLDs and saw that I wasn't the only one thinking about the shape vs. performance of a 168 and not just the weight making the difference. I like the 168s. They shoot much better out of my 1 in 12" than the 175s. I figure if I need to go beyond 800 then that's why I have a 300WM ;)

On rifle weight,

I like a rifle about 12-15lbs. My .308 M40A1 clone with scope is right at 12.5lbs and feels good. My 300WM will be more once I get it back from my smith. Probably in the 14-15lbs area but that is fine with the heavier recoiling rifle. I wouldn't go much heavier if you had to drag it around but I guess that goes without saying.

On the Wichita swivels,

I had them installed on my McMillan HTG stock for my M40A1 clone. Very nice and strong. I haven't really heard of anyone doing a retro on them but that idea about drilling and taping the AICS is an excellent one and if I had one i'd give it a try.

Rob01 <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 19:33:11 (ZULU)

The swivels I use on the AI SLING is better than drilling. The swivels only recently became available.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 19:44:14 (ZULU)

A bit more on the 168's.

These puppies are not "New age".  The short, 13 degree boat tail is real old technology, and gas flow studies have shown it to be nada... but that not withstanding, if you like them, shoot them.  I use them in two rifles... my M21, cuz I can't get the velocity out of a 175 that I want, without beating the crap out of the op rod... and that ain't my 1,000 yard riffle anyway... and in a Winchester HBV/Stealth with a 12" twist, and a 2 foot long Unertl scope on it... it makes one hole groups with the 168's and that is fine with me.

But if you really need the best for long range, then heavier with longer boat tails is more betterer.


'yote Bate...

Of course I remember the old Herter's... in fact I bought some original Winchester Walnut Stain from them last year, to re-do the stock on an orginal M70 Heavy sniper riffle from the 'Nam era... and it WAS the orginal color ;))

Now here's one for you, ya' ol' booger... (or any one of youz other old moss backs)... do you remember the Herter's "Wasp Waist" bullets, that had a constricton in the middle of the body, so they looked like those old coke bottles... the rifling would only touch the front, and the back, but not the middle.

They shot good too.

Your 9" sniper riffle... you are just goint to have to learn to hump that heavy puppy around.  Maybe get a spotter to carry it (and the beer ;)

>" everything. He maintained it happened to 150's out of M1's about 850 yards but get this... it straightened back out on the original path by 1000. HOw the heck it is supposed to know where it's supposed to be is beyond me"<

I have heard this garbage from people that should know better, and I STILL hear it... the same with bullets "going to sleep... they make a 3" group at 50 yds, but a 1" group at 100 yds... how does the bullet know where the right direction is... especally with the world in front of it spinning at 250,000 RPM?

Did they ever hear of parallex?

Go figgure!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 21:59:57 (ZULU)


>>The swivels I use on the AI SLING is better than drilling. The swivels only recently became available.<<

You're calling this the AI SLING? Is this a special sling with swivels or just the different swivels? If you have a link that shows this/these, please post it.

I've got the AI 1.5 stock. Normally, I get my gear from U.S. Tactical Supply and would like to know when they'd have some.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:03:09 (ZULU)

In an experimental design class a few years ago I tested the "bullets go to sleep" theory.  The conclusion was:  They don't.  The farther out you go, the larger the group.  


CDC' <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:07:17 (ZULU)


Got to go with Kevin on the S&B's.  Tough bastards.  Good glass.

Except if I remember right elevation is in 1/3 incriments.  Mabye just an option though.  Not too pricy.  Shot behined one on an AWP for a while.  Good set-up.

Nice talking to you yesterday.

Anybody have experience with the DVC Armaments (GG&G) rifles?  Got Brant there working on a Super 90 for me and got on to their rifles.  Any experience?

Richard Johnson <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:32:27 (ZULU)

Rifle weight:

My FN SPR 26" bbl.,.308 w/ McMillan A2 stock, bipod, sling and ammo weights, 14.5lbs.

My Rem 700P 22" bbl., .308 w/ AICS, bipod, sling and ammo weights, 15.5lbs.

I don't remember what the M14 weights because I'm suffering from "old timers" but........I don't have to do the "Airborne Shuffle" in Ranger School while carring the M14 at Port Arms anymore.  So weight of a rifle doesn't really matter to me unless I get called back to do a mission.

Long Range Recon Patrols were spotters with sniping capability.  We were dropped off, humped a few clicks and settled down for the "wait".  Humping in an Infantry Platoon we used the Matel Toy (M16) which doesn't weigh as much as your spare ammo.  But we would hump ten to twelve hours a day.  I don't see "Snipers" deployed that way.  Yes, I go to the Military Web sites, CNN and CDC {;-).

I guess I don't understand why an extra 2 to 6 lbs. would make that much difference. I can loose that much water weight running 3 miles during the summer in my neighborhood. gear and tactics are over 30 years old.

Rambosky - Over..........

Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:33:53 (ZULU)

On the slings with AI type connections.  I have only ade 6 or so, and have only offered them for about a month now.  John L.'s buddies beat me up until I went out and found some good hardware.  US Tactical has not even heard of the set (my fault not thiers)  up yet so dont expect them to have any for awhile.  If you want further info just email me.  I am sure we can work something out.  Old John's buddies beat me so bad I have enough hardward for several hundred AI slings.

One thing of note is the AI set up has all the quickness of the AI but rattles like the AI set up does.  The drill for studs gets rid of the rattle.  Thats the only way to get away from a rattle as long as AI uses a hook set up almost big enough to put a carabiner through.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Friday, August 16, 2002, at 22:52:09 (ZULU)

Many, many moons ago, a group of reprobates that included Mike Miller, Bravo, Mike S and myself had the idea of making a slinky little gun case that would keep the mud, crud and blood out of a rifle action while protecting the scope from minor bumps.  When not in use this thing was supposed to roll or fold up and fit in a small corner of a pack.  Did anything ever come of all this fantasizing?  If not, does anyone else think that this is a sorely needed item and it should be made universally available ASAP?

CDC' <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 23:18:57 (ZULU)

RICH:  A couple of people I respect really like the Schmidts.  Kevin Mussack, Ed Pocock, Pete L, et al.

But I ain't CDC, Lito, or B. Robinson and am metrically challenged. If it ain't KISS simple, I'll mess it up.

But ... I take small comfort in the fact that what I lack in smarts I make up for in Chick Diggability (They really like it when I let them wear the balaclava).  Power trip for 'em I guess.

But I digress ...

So far, it's a toss up between a Schmidt and a Loopy III M1 LR - w/Gen 2 dots.

Ain't nobody mentioned Nightforce.  Lots of operational policemen over at Snipersonline that also win sniper matches really like the things. Mike T/partner /D. Bartlett/ J. Peterson et al.

I know my Brit friend Pete don't care for 'em much and that carries weight too.

Nobody's hollering USO either. yet

Guess we'll see.

I enjoyed speaking with you also.  We would probably have no problems and be right on the same page if we worked together. Used to have a partner like that. Didn't even have to talk. One knew what the other was thinking.  Sure miss that one ... one helluva shot.

Later bro

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 16, 2002, at 23:57:18 (ZULU)

Weighed the Stealth and Gumby tonight.

Stealth: Badger base and MAX 50 rings, Leupold LRM3, Harris lightweight and Mikes Sling, 12lbs unloaded on the bathroom scale.

Gumby III: Rem 700LA, McMillan A3, Badger bottom metal/Base/Standard Rings, 26" SS #7 taper, Nightforce NXS 50mm scope, harris lightweight, Miller sling, unloaded = 15lbs.

I can't believe how much 3lbs feels like.  I'd have sworn Gumby  weighed close to 18lbs and it makes the Stealth feel light as a feather. (spend about 6 hours in the woods with the stealth and you'll see it's definelatly no damn feather)  This has proven to me that if you use a quality 22" barrel, good ammo and make a sensible scope selection, you can have an excellent 1K shooter in the 10 or 11 lbs range without sacrificing anything but weight.  17lbs now sounds INSAIN to me.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 01:06:47 (ZULU)

Catchuncher; has it figured out..... The less weight in the rifle... the more liquid refreshment you can carry.

How much ammo does 2 lbs make? That's how much 2 lbs is! And you can feel that 2lbs on occasion real sharply.

6" of heavy bbl. weighs 2lbs easy. In .308 it costs about 70 fps max. Reduces the radius of barrel whip somewhat and gets the job done just about as good.  

Brian; how smart is the guy who's gonna use this scope thingy?

1. He can tie his shoes and chew gum at the same time but barely.

2. He thinks he's a Tom Cruise look alike but can't divide by 2 with out a calculator.

3. He has a sister in law that's a real swamp fox.

4. He can't do mil dot math in the dark without his mag light.

5. Has never wrestled a gator past noon in deep water.  

IF the answer is yes to all 4. I recommend he gets a Sheperd P2.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:08:53 (ZULU)


Metrically challenged?

Hell, I'm math-challenged!

That's why I came up with my gizmo, so's I wouldn't have to fiddle-fart around with a calculator, much less in the dark. (Color on the device was chosen to work well with red illumination.)


Witchita's standard on the well spent. Get 'em.

Dunno about retrofitting them, but definitely specify them on a new rifle.


Yer preachin' to the choir with me. Norm built me a 20" job that has turned me evangelical. Ken will not let me near any of his sticks unless I go through a metal detector, lest I have a hacksaw.

Although his 28" tubes will shoot further (by 8 inches).

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:35:46 (ZULU)

Alan - I'm also looking at the wheel weights and double sided tape.  Got plenty of weight in the butt, need some in the front now.  Also looking at the Tubbs bufer spring and bolt weight combo to take the twang out.

I have exactly two boxes of white box M118 National Match setting on my book case as my last LOT of ammo in that grade.  I also have two boxes of white box M72 National Mach 30.06 and two boxes of white box M852 National Match.  They are my book case trophies of years past.  

Kevin - Thank you for bringing that up.  I was in sky diving mode of thought and not dirty old man mode.  Yes guys, for those that do not know, tandem is when a qualified jumper attaches a non jumper to his chest and flings the non jumper and him (or her) self out of a perfectly good aircraft.  My wife has watched but never participated.  Figured if I could get her out once she would be hooked and I could start spending money on that little game again.  She hates all of my expensive hobbies.  :-)

Oh yes Kevin, did the sheepies work?  ;-)

Cat man - Heck you would of been a good foot taller if so much hadn't have turned under.  My son wears size 15 and I use them as canoes.  He hates that.  On the 168 gr, It was originally built for 300 meter International and was then found to shoot great at 600 yards.  Due to this a bunch went with it for cross course use. The 168 in 7 mm Mag will hammer at 1000 but as you said the "standard" 168 in .308 is really too slow for 1000.  Need to push it harder to get there.  Question though is why when there is the 175 and it works great at that range.  Lito be careful with the 175s in your M21.  The trigger takes it tough from the heavy bolt recoil just as the operating rod does.  I have replaced two different triggers now from guys shooting those suckers from their Springfields.  You mean you have to set parallex at 25 and 30 yards just like at 200 and 500 yards.  Yes JB DOUBLE HA!!!!

Larry - Seen two handles come off in 15 years.  Yes same company and both times were rapid bolt manipulation drills.  While the guys had arms like gorillas, the reason was pure and simple piss poor silver soldering of the bolt handle to the bolt body.

Joe - Never saw the question in my scaning but a mil dot space is a mil dot space.  It equals 1 mil and one mil is a thousandth of a radian which makes the spacing equal to 3.438 or 3.44 moa to the mil.  the difference is the dot size of 3/4 moa verses 1/4 mil in the football shape.  If this does not match with what you got then email me and I'll give you more data and some training aids if necessary.  Man have I spread those things around.  :-)

Brian - The new SIMRAD, which they will update an old ot a new for a nominal fee, will fit on most any glass now.  If you already have a scope in mind then it should fit.  Make sure it is variable becasue you will find that the post objective liens type NODs work much better at lower powers.  Since you can't read wind at night then shooting past 350 to 400 becomes problematic anyway.  Another night vision device that works well but is EXPENSIVE is Reed Knights Universal.  Must have a special mount for day scope and night scope though.  I can say that the new Premier Reticle is a honey.  We just got two example of the 12-45 Loopie with the new reticle.  It is in the first focal so stays in relation all the way through the power settings very nice.  This on the M1 LR (shudder, I hate .25 moa scopes) or the M3 LR should work well.  The S&B is very good and we are looking at it for that type of work as well.  The 1 cm is also 1/3 inch per click at 100 yards.  No big deal, no math conversion.  I believe this to be better then the .25 moa scope as at 100 yards it moves the bullet the diameter of the bullet and not less then the diameter as the .25 moa dial does.  We have a bunch of scopes that we will be looking at over the next several months.  Will let you guys know how it turns out.  We are a bit tough on scopes.  


Well that was long winded tonight.  Guess I will have myself a tall cool glass of shut the heck up now.

Hold hard guys.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:35:59 (ZULU)

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:42:34 (ZULU)


HERTER'S! Now THAT brings back memories. Used to wait for the catalog. Lot's of color glossy stuff and absolutely the "worlds finest" everything! Used their "farbenglass" arrows to take my first archery buck. Still have the arrow...

As for "wasp waist" bullets...I remember them, but was to young to play with them at that point in time. Damn, this brings back GOOD memories!

Spent the past two days feeling poorly. Not what I want to do on my days off.

Am rebuilding my kit this next month for hunting season. The new Tactical Advantage Assault Pack Plus is the ticket, gents. Comfy, enough room for your gear, spotting scope, etc. Dandy to shoot over, as well. Give'm a look'll like it.

All for now.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 02:50:29 (ZULU)

Herters "Wasp-Waisted" bullets,

                              I, too was too young to play with them. Could just look at them in Herters wish book and dream. I have a pet theory about their purpose. They would cut down on bullet bearing area to permit a heavier, longer bullet to be driven faster with less pressure. Similar to the long 140gr bullet that Winchester loaded in their .264WM. If I'm not mistaken their engineers specified a 140gr loading so the .264 would show a reasonable advantage over their .270, but they had to cut down on the bullet bearing surface by going to a two diameter bullet to keep pressures where they wanted them.


     A new buffer design to stop the 'twang'? Heck, I've been packing the spring with some grease, just like most of the Service Rifle guys around here, to quiet down 'Matty Mattel' ;-) Does this new invention really work? Would help in the mind over matter dept!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 04:21:19 (ZULU)

A week or so ago noted the problem with Win-ball...and my Colt and Bushmaster...

Today got a letter from Winchester telling me to return the remaining white box ammunition type Q3131 lot# PE30 for testing and evaluation.  

They included a shipping label.

They also said they would compensate me for the ammunition when the tests were complete...

Unknown how long tests would take or what compensation they would offer. BUT it is better than pulling down 500 .223 rounds for re-assembly with new powder...

dennis hill <>
Henderson, NV, usa - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 04:51:29 (ZULU)


Been called out on coyote duty at the airport again this mornin. This ought to be fun. First time since 9/11. If I ain't back in 36 hours send lawyers to BMG.



john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 10:25:25 (ZULU)

'yote Bate... You forgot:

#6  "If his older sister, his teacher, and his girlfriend are all the same person"!



Did you ever get SWFA to dump that article that had two different mildot spacings??



>"Lito be careful with the 175s in your M21.  The trigger takes it tough from the heavy bolt recoil just as the operating rod does..."<

That's why I don't shoot no 175s in the M21... just as long as I don't get no "Trigger recoil" that can be heard for a klik, then I'm all right!

Are you guys looking "hard" at the .408 CheyTac... I got into a "cat fight" (HA!!) with Warren Jensen over on last week, and he swears that you guys are still hot for their rifle, and his bullets... also seems that on his website, he claims that West Point Military Academy awarded him a degree in "Ordnance Engineering"... but West Point says his degree is in Public Relations... Would our military buy a $10,000 sniper system from a "PR" man... why not, PR guys sell us soap and dish detergent on TV... Hmmmm Sure a lotta spin coming out that bunch.



You are right on the .264 thing... I had one of the Winchester Westerners with a 26" bbl, in those days, and loved it.  Now those kinda bullets are called "Bore Riders".

The cartridge was a good one, but suffered from short barrels.  A medium weight barrel (.80" muzzle) that was 28" long would make the .264 into a bolt of lightening.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 14:28:26 (ZULU)

Brian, echoing what Rick said about the SIMRADs.  My brother asked (for the Oakland, California PD) and I recommended a third-generation SIMRAD 250.  They have them mounted over Leupold 3.5-10 VX-III Police and M3LRs, and the PD paid for extra forward ring blocks for the officers without dedicated SIMRADs so they can transfer between shifts.  Not the ideal solution, but in the land of the night-blind the one-eyed [night vision] guy is king).

I've used them on M3s, M3LRs, and M1-16X.  The problem with the 16X was like looking at a TV screen with a set of binos from 10 feet away -- you see individual lines because of the magnification.  On the plus side, with the target illuminated wih your spotter's active IR laser (AN/PAQ-4) you can positively identify targets by face (i.e., that's so-and-so, there's Mr. Mustache, there's Gucci glasses, etc.).  The last time I did this was in 1994, shooting through glass on a night with zero (none, no, positively three feet up a cow's backside black, overcast/no starlight night).  Three shooters, three kills, 150 - 175 meters, elevation down from five floors.

Rick, there was a guy ("Tony") at the Fayetteville gun show that sold a stainless steel knock-off of the Tubb carrier weight for the M16 ($20 instead of $50).  It works!  I found it smooths out rapids recoil and bounce so it seems I have more time to aim and concentrate.  I have a genuine Tubb in the AR-10T and it does seem to help on the brass (primers aren't flat) than without.

The Tubb recoil springs are genuinely quieter than the GI (which I used to grease the heck out of to avoid the Mattel "Sproing-oing" after trigger squeeze).  The bolt and carrier seem to go forward with a more solid (for aluminum and plastic) "Clack".  Can't seem to figure out why.  I like them.

I found mag wheel weight strips (about 10 inches long by 1/4 inch wide) with double sided tape ready to mount at the auto supply store.  I used four strips (box of a dozen was $10, I think).  You can either tape them to the free-float tube or the inside of the handguard.

I'm wondering whether or not to use the 14 for across the course (I'm struggling to shoot a 184-186 at 600 with a 16, but I can shoot a 197 with a 14 without trying.  Damn old eyes).

I've never heard "Reed Knight" and "Affordable" in the same conversation.

If Mrs. Bowcher wants to make a jump, just let me know.

Curt I's Redfield Palma sight came apart on him during one of the 1,000 yard matches at Perry.  He had to clear the line, run back to the tool box, and reassemble the damn thing (with the clock still running).  Great story.  Once he had the thing back together (I'm surprised he found all the balls and springs) he started dinging 10s and X's again.

Sam Ohlinger, one of the Ohio junior shooters, shot really well with an M14 at 1,000 yards last year.  My dad was teaching him to read wind.  Sam's dad, Mike, got him a used Model 70 earlier this year and after three or four tries at 1,000 used it for the long-range matches at Perry, scoring a 431 out of 450 in the Palma.  It was good enough to get him a seat on the under-25 Palma Team that will represent the United States at Bisley (England) in July, 2003.

He's a junior in high school.

Gear weight definitely makes a difference.  My last XO took impressive records and documented his long-distance times over ground validating Selection routes for new candidates.  Jungle boot times were faster than "Leg" boot times.  Adidas GSG-9 boot (like high-top sneakers) times were 15% faster than with regular combat boots.  Pounds equals fatigue or other gear (water at 8 pounds a gallon, or batteries, or chow).

Sinister Dave <>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 14:35:39 (ZULU)

Catshooter; I just didn't bother with #6 cause I think everybody he knows is a #6. But your right... I should have included that just in case one was a "straight" female.

John; good luck on them Port dogs! I can see it now! "Officers...There's a camoed Redneck on the Tarmack with a Sniper Rifle,,,making sounds like he's wounded! Deploy the team ASAP. Use extreme caution, subject is Armed and considered mentally deranged and highly dangerous!"

This AR mod is sounding pretty good. I hate that sound. Sounds like a spring came off in the car door!

The .264 Winchester as a lightning bolt is a good analogy. Beautiful accurate, turn a Antelope upside down at 800 yards rifleman's rifle. Barrel cost bedamned. That one gets the job done. And it don't take your head off doin it. MOst were made after 1964 if not all if my memory ain't plumb gone. Lito would remember if he can remember those Herter bullets... Not Winchesters' finest moment but that cartridge was a humper.  

Herter, claimed he made the trigger for M1 Garands. IF he did, that was a fine work. I looked it up last night. He claims a bullet moves 10 to 12 inches upon re-entry and then due to force and gyroscopic effect if returned by 1000 to it's original path. This one could be equated to the spinning of a kid's top.(my analogy not his) Subjected to all kinds of forces and yaw it eventually spins it's self vertical to gravity and smooths itself by "geo distribution "(I made that term up Lito, it isn't a gap in your knowledge or nuthin, I didn't wanna panic attack there..). Seriously every thing I've ever done at the ranges mentioned bears this out. Every cartridge I've ever used extensively at all goes to all at 1200 fps or thereabouts. I was recently shooting .308 vlds at 900 into a real stiff wind. All hell was breaking loose and I couldn't hit anything. 2.5 foot groups and some completely off the board. I just cussed and went to town.  The next morning the wind was exactly opposite (normal in Kansas) and blowing like hell again but behind me. Both winds were pretty straight and not too gusty but would blow your hat off. The groups were all right at 1 MOA or slightly more. Same ammo,gun,shooter,temp,altitude, don't remember barometer checking.

I was happy but wondering what I had done to correct it. I MOVED to 1000 and thought I'd get some good groups in spite of the wind.

I would have had trouble hitting a jeep. (I should explain for those not in tune to this discussion that I think the round was going subsonic with the head wind accord to the computer that was pretty close to the barrier. The next day I think the wind behind me kept it above the barrier to some extent. My son who was spotting at 100 meters said the sound of the bullet going past was quite a bit different than the day before but that could be for other reasons I guess. Palma shooters all seem very concerned about the sound barrier thing. I don't believe those long barrels are there just to  make a faster bullet out of those 150's without consideration of the barrier.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 15:16:55 (ZULU)

Well... the best sub-sonic story I have heard yet is in Precision Shooting magazine... I think it's the July issue

In an article by John Taylor, he says that when bullets go sub-sonic, they turn 45 degrees down, (and, of course, go straight to the earth)... I can't figgure that kind of stuff being in PS magazine, but who knows.  I think that the Editor/Publishor is sweet on that bunch.

I had e-mails with the author and asked, if his statement was true, then how come 30 cal tracers (that go sub-sonic at aroung 600 yds) can be seen flying out to 2,000+ meters without any 45 degree change in direction, and he ducked the question.

I wonder how those Scotties get them raggity .303s bullets to go all the way out to 2,400 yards??


By the way... where the hell is the Bolt-ster?



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 15:43:28 (ZULU)

Brian, the SN3 US Optics would be a fine scope, but cost is double the M1 LR and with the new glass etched gen 2 reticle, many of my complaints about the M1 are gone.  The Gen 2 reticle is in my opinion the best reticle on the market right now.  Now if I can get USO to offer the Gen2 and bring the price down we will have something to talk about. Right now I think you will be happy with the M1 LR

CDC, on the drag bag that rolls up like a sock.  If you gou to  You will find an equipment area for Desert Specialties and he makes one.   Its around 40.00-50.00 bucks and what you are looking for.  His name is Mike Dismuke, a hell of a nice guy and a former Recon Marine Captain.

Sinister, how are the Simrads working for your brother?  I have tried some NVDs but always comes back to too much light in the city.  Seems like just a good day scope is all you need until you go inside a buildng.  Every NVD I ave used on the outside, with normal city lights flared out.  While were at it tell him I am going down to Liggett Septemeber 13-15 and theres room if any of his guys want to join in.  Three days running exercises with UKD targets and such.  I was supposed to bring my guys down for mutual training with NG but we are right in the middle of two weeks of range training with them so no over time will be approved.  I am just going on my own.  I promised the NG.  You figure out the slings yet?


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 16:31:12 (ZULU)


Your comment was exactly what I was afraid of. No 'yotes to be found. 20 knot wind blowin right in my face all mornin. Misty rain and low clouds. Nothin was movin, not even deer. Gotta go back till I get at least one. That keeps 'em off the active for awhile. I stayed on the back side of a small hill away from the road. I don't think anyone even knew I was there. Perfect.

Remind me to tell you the story about the Dali Llama coming to Bloomington, the same week I took delivery of the Barrett, at the airport the first time I assembled it. It's funny now, hell, it was funny for "me" then, the Feds weren't laughin till it all got straightened out.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 16:58:47 (ZULU)

'lito and 'yote bait,

                    I still have my early 1960 built M70 Westerner with factory stainless barrel. Bought it NIB at a sports store in late 1964. It had been sitting there for four years without even a nibble, something about barrel life;-) so they clearanced out all of those old models to make room for the new stock! Bet they would like to take that move back. Started out with a 6x Weaver and changed to a 4-12 Redfield in about 1974, which it still wears today. Even though I hunted with it for years, and still use it when I'm lucky enough to draw for pronghorn, it's only got about 400+/- rounds through it so the barrel looks like new, and the only visible wear is some blue at the muzzle, along the barrel, bolt handle, and trigger guard, mostly from a saddle scabbard. This thing's going to my grandson, but I've got a strong feeling that he'd better take up handloading if he's gonna use it!

                      'yote bate's right, since they only made these from 1960 thru 1963, the "new model" is much more prevalent. It's a shame, but you can probably blame "pre-'64" collectors like me for drying up the supply.

Rick or Sinister,

                Could you supply contact info for the Tubbs spring and buffer?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 17:15:42 (ZULU)

Sinister - Will have to look for the guy on the next show. Those things work really well, fired one with and mine and will take with any day.  The whole system feels more like a solid weapon system then a Matty Matel Bang Bang gun.  "Gee you can tell its Matel, its swell."  :-)

Dave you are right when you said that Reed and cheap or affordable was ever used in the same sentence.  He is known for making some real wild stuff and charging just as wildly.  He does piss me off though when he charges for fixing his screw ups. (SRs jump right to my mind) how about your's?  :-)

Yeah that was one of the first things Curt told me when he got back.  Told him about the rubber bands and the Brits during the Palma matches.  He says he will keep his repair kit a bit more handy next time, and will have a good rolling shooting cart for those line changes.  Taught the new students yesterday on the iron sights, told them to count down and right to record for return to zero purposes.  When I told them that 99 times out of 100, if they took their buddies sight, counted from bottom and from right, that they would be zeroed within .5 to 1 moa.  they looked at me like "OK you old fart, we are going to act like we believe you."  Monday range all day and they get to start counting.

'Lito - No we are not, neither, to my knowledge, is anyone else in the Army SOF program.  Now SEALs have more money then brains so no telling with the Squids.  It was demoed for us and it was told to them to come back when you have it working properly.  Nuff Said.  

Alan - It is sold by Tubbs and it works very well indeed.  The weight and spring runs about 60.00 and you can get them through Sinclair International, 2330 Wayne Haven Street, Fort Wayne, Indiana 46803, tel# 1 260-493-1858, they are also on the net at, however they do not list the tubbs bolt weight only the tubbs buffer spring.  As stated above it makes it feel like a real rifle and I know that that is only Pschological when you hear the twang and feel that mushy return.  But hey, I'm albout being macho and nonsense like that.  I even admit to laughing my head off in '92 when they were first talking about the 5.56mm for serious long range.  Guess I now eat crow everytime I see these guys.  UGH!  :-)

CDC - Look at cutting down an old fatigue pant leg and closing the end a draw string after sewing the other end shut.  Us an old mil blanket as padding inside the trouser leg and you have a pocket form the trouser leg already.  rolls up small and is enought o protect the weapon as long as yo do your job of controlling the weapon.

Mike - I too have had problems with NVDs flaring and that is one of the really good things about the SIMRAD.  If the light is enough to cause flare then the shot can be taken with the day scope.  Flip up the prism door and by pass the NVD, you now can use the day scope without dismounting the night scope.

Agree with the Gen II reticle.  Got the new scopes with them and they are really nice!  Now for the smart a**ed question, do you really think that he will change since he didn't invent it and it isn't his idea?  Just a thought.  We are getting in a bunch of equipment for demoing and the Lieca 1200 is a honey!  The 20 x stabilized binos are a dream and I can't wait for the new S&Bs and other stuff to come in.  I would consider some of that stuff for your projects Mike.  Will try to get more info to you later as we get testing and demoing completed.

Hold hard guys, have to go back to yard work, chock gag chock!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 17:34:56 (ZULU)

John' at least you survived without a SWAT call out. I guess I'll be lookin to get that 50 story. My imagination will soar a bit...I can imagine.

If the wind is 20 Knots you might try setting up where you can see about 600 down wind if possible. I'd guess the country is kinda wooded though and if you can't see over a hundred it's futile  to hunt down wind.

Wiley can smell you at 600 in that kind of wind. He will circle until he gets down wind unless it takes him to max exposure. If you can figure where he will come from and circle too. It might work to ambush him there.  I always call down wind if the wind is over 5mph. The call carries farther and since he is hunting you instead of the other way around he will eventually turn up down the tube from you. IF he is downwind and stops, takin the shot right then is probably the best you can get. My dog picks up anything coming in from upwind and lets me know if she's along. But lots of times I first see him down wind anyway even though she has spilled the beans on him. I try to stay invisible to dogs coming from upwind and it very seldom happens unless the wiley flunked his rabbit hunting course.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 18:25:03 (ZULU)

Lito' I heard that one too. I think it's probably true but the angle might be quite a bit off. THat's pretty funny about the 45 degree nose dive. No, it don't get that bad but it sure seems like there's something to it. The wind is such a factor out here it's hard to test that close. Here's what old Herter had to say about it just for reference. Ya'll see what you think about this by.

Geo. Leonard Herter in Professional Loading pg. 545

        titled     The Impossible Range for Rifles

 "When rifle bullets lose some rotation, the sound barrier causes them to "yaw" widely, sometimes as much as ten or twelve inches.

 On the 30-06 this second "yaw" area occurs at about 800 yards with most bullets. The bullet then goes back to it's "pre-yaw" course and continues on its same accurate course, This is why no long range matches are ever fired at 800 yards but at 1000 yards to make sure that the bullet has range enough to again get back on it's course. "

  In my experience this all happens but it don't quite remember where it was! Group size at ranges after the barrier are disproportional to the sized before allowing for expansion based on range. I don't know to tell the truth what I think about this.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 18:53:01 (ZULU)

'Lito, 'Yote,

Obviously the only way to settle this "Herters, bullet yawing 45 degrees etc" thing is to get Triggerfifty's-sooper-dooper-deathstar-boolit-radar gun to take up close pictures of the bullet while in fight for it's whole trajectory. ;)))


Rich S.

Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 19:45:24 (ZULU)

I wonder why the Palma is shot with 308s at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards if the bullets will yaw off-course like a drunken sailor (apologies to all Naval friends and acquaintances)?

Copy this line or click my name for the Tubb Carrier Weight System and recoil spring:

Mike, funny you should mention the slings.  Since there weren't any pictures in the instructions (remember, me cave-man) I couldn't figure them out and thought "Take the 14, you know how that works."  Stupid me.

I'll let my brother know about Hunter-Ligget (he's right in the middle of a house closing and purchasing a new place, which isn't going smoothly and is why he couldn't get to Perry this year).

The Navy sometimes seems to have more money than sense when it comes to guns and gadgets, but they often produce really neat toys by thinking "Out of the box" (I guess in that sense I am also not just a little jealous).  Some of their failures are real boner-chihuahuas, but then again they may only be buying a few before someone's "Does this make sense?" light goes on.  They have considerably more successes than failures, and the rest of the force is better off because of them.

Sinister Dave <>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 20:57:06 (ZULU)

Brian. you decide on exactly which SCHMIDT & BENDER you want and then see what it costs over there and then i will see what i can get it for here, putting any scope but a S&B on any AI is blasphemy, it don't just look right. Besides the S&B's are superduper. If your mathematicaly challenged, thats exactly why you should go to a scope with 1cm clicks at 100m and convert totaly to the metric system, (we've covered all this before and we all agree its far simpler don't we?)I wouldn't say that the NXS are too bad a scope, just don't let Marco or Jon hear me say that, Ive got a catalogue open here with the AI AE in it and they list a retail price of 3499 euroes(the company Frankonia are always expensive in their retail prices but thats nearly 1000 euroes more than they list the TRG 42 at) I've spent a lot of time playing with the L96 (first gen AW) but had never seen one of these AE's in the flesh, looks to me like they took their target rifle(accuracy master) and stuck it on the AI chassis, no reason that they shouldn't shoot well, just to bloody expensive for me. I'm wondering which spotting scope to equip my self with, i just can't make up my mind.

You guys getting any info on the news about the two Brit squaddies that have been shot in kabul, the news here ain't telling us much.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 21:20:27 (ZULU)

Knowledge for the Ballistic and Math challenged

Long Range shooters.

Steve from Joisey

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 21:25:15 (ZULU)

O' mighty Sinister one; They shoot Palma at those ranges because the long barrels and the loads they use do not allow the 150 grain bullet to fall back below the sound barrier.  Thas why they got longer barrels than da dumb ass coyote hunter down in the sagebrush in Kansas. Das why dey do dat!

Litoman; why didn't I thank of that? Heck we don't need no pictures we just will catch it on the RADAR! The doppler shift should show it slowing down disporportionatly after it enters the human side of the sound barrier and gets it's 45 dagress status.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 21:55:07 (ZULU)

Sinister and Rick,

                 Many thanks for the Tubb info. I'll order my first set on Monday!

Pete L,

       Like you, I've heard very little on the news on the 2 Brits in Kabul story, execpt that it was at the airport? Probably were mistaken for Yanks :-((

       I know that you're an S&B man, but have you ever checked out for alternatives? I don't own one yet (mucho dinero) but they're very impressive. Had use of my first one today at the range on an AI, of all things.USO had installed an M1913 interface, worked as advertised. Besides, Mikey likes 'em;-)

Jon B. told me that Colorado must be a really big state for a tiny mosquito to get here all the way from Egypt carrying a virus. I answered that it was suspected that it's some kind of primitive radical Islamist terror weapon, so we were considering sending Cruise Missles back in return;-0


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:05:55 (ZULU)

Hello to all. Is anybody out there familiar with the deal Springfield has going right now? The "buy an M1A and get a scope/mount package for $124 extra" deal..?

I am a pretty solid handgunner ( read: "high power rifle novice" ) but I've started shooting in a service rifle match recently, hence the purchase of the M1A. My question is this: is the setup they offer even worth $124? I've heard a real mixed bag of reviews for the Springfield optics. Any feedback would be cool.

PS- I shoot the matches with iron sights, but the price on this deal seems like a steal IF the scope is okay.

Matthew McDonough <>
monrovia, ca, usa - Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:07:02 (ZULU)

Why won't this Goddamned thing shoot?!

Rem 700 varmint, 6 m&m rem.  Have 2 stocks for it.  Wood/acraglass then HS synthetic.  The HS started out unbedded, then I bedded the action in devcon.  The tang and the recoil lug through the first inch of the barrel are bedded in the wood stock and in the HS.

First shot from a cold bore (clean or not) goes three full inches low in the the wood/acraglass stock, and, before I bedded it in devcon, the HS stock did the same thing.  The first shot from the rifle with the HS stock bedded in devcon goes two inches low.  After the first shot, the rifle shoots acceptably.

Somebody, anybody, why is this stinking thing making my life miserable?  

Rick, Mike, & Bill:  Thanks for the suggestions on the lightweight gun cover for the field.

Pablo:  Man, you're ruthless.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:42:27 (ZULU)

Who builds the best, accurate Ruger mini14 rifle with combination of

good ironsites and quick detach scope mount? Also, is there a

adjustable stock made for this rifle? What is the best (1x9) rifle

twist for 55-62 grain ammo? I will be shooting thousands of rounds

with this. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Contact me at

beckrodgers <>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:44:26 (ZULU)

Went to the BIG Houston Show today. Got an Aimpoint Comp M2, ARMS 40 flip up rear and an ARMS SIR for my M4.

A buddy picked up a NIB AI AE for 2 Grand even.  The guy had bought ten originally and this was the last of them.  Sweeeeeet.

Also got me one of those itty bitty Kel Tec .32s for New Orleans shorts/T shirt weather.

LITO: The City buys me .308M - 4 cases at a time - so I have always skimmed over the magic Varget load you guys are always talking about.

Can you shoot it to me for my buddy with the AE so I don't have to surf.  24 in. bbl on the beast if it matters.

Thanks for the scope posts fellas.

Watch your sixes,


brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 23:59:12 (ZULU)

Alan, the news we are getting here is that 2 Brits where killed, no one else involved, ie, sounds like they shot each other, i'm wondering what the fuck happened and who it happend to.

Ive read about USO and seen their catalogue and web site, but i don't realy like the look of em,too bulky, the S&B PMII variables are big and heavey enough, ive not seen a USO scope over here, I went onto the S&B's a few years ago cos i got sick of Leupolds breaking and then having to wait months untill i got em back repaired, The quality of the S&B's is second to none, I haven't had one break on me yet, only problem i have had was sluggish adjustment on an older scope where the internal lubricant had congealed,I dropped the scope of on my way to work and picked it up at the end of the week on my way home, they had changed the lubricant for the stuff they use these days and the scope has been fine since.I can't do that with a scope made in the US or the far east, I like to stick with what i know works and the S&B's can't be beat for performance, i just wish they would listen when i go on about them introduciing different models, a 4-16 x42 PMII for example, they just brought out a combined illuminated ret and paralax adjustment control, maybe they will get around to some other stuff next year.

CDC, just cut some barrel of the thing.

Mathew, Springfield=Hakko.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 00:11:49 (ZULU)

Matthew, on the scope mount you referenced in the deal, if they sent it to you at no charge but you had to pay for shipping, you would be overcharged. To paraphrase CDC, give it to someone you really don't like. Or, alternatively, give it to someone that you don't want to like you.

Palma shooters? I thought they used the horizontal steel telephone poles to get the front sight out there where it did the most good. Sight radius is like ammo. Too much? Not enough.

Kittywhacker, "That's why I don't shoot no 175s in the M21... just as long as I don't get no "Trigger recoil" that can be heard for a klik, then I'm all right!". Might want to change that curly thing that goes in the op rod once every other decade. Might help.

Black rifles without twang? That's like a sober country singer. The question would be WHY 8p

Jaeger <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 00:12:59 (ZULU)

Just checking to see if I can get this to work. I am having trouble getting my messages to post.

beckrodgers <>
Bartlett, TN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 01:29:02 (ZULU)

Who builds the best, accurate Ruger mini14 rifle with combination of

good ironsites and quick detach scope mount? Also, is there a

adjustable stock made for this rifle? What is the best (1x9) rifle

twist for 55-62 grain ammo? I will be shooting thousands of rounds

with this. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Contact me at

beckrodgers <>
Bartlett, TN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 01:33:49 (ZULU)

In regards to Iraq;

   I think we should help Saddam landscape his country. Every time I see Iraq on the news, it looks like a dirt pit.

   Therefore, I suggest that we load up some B52's with cluster bombs full of kudzu and fire ants. That would give a little bio-diversity.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 02:32:30 (ZULU)

beckrodgers:  If you are going to burn that much ammo, nobody's Mini-14 is the answer.  AR, Daewoo, Valmut, Galil, HK, FN,...something like that is the way to go.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 02:48:05 (ZULU)

"Yer preachin' to the choir with me. Norm built me a 20" job that has turned me evangelical. Ken will not let me near any of his sticks unless I go through a metal detector, lest I have a hacksaw.

Although his 28" tubes will shoot further (by 8 inches)."

BruceR. and other short barrel freaks:  Get off the short barrel kick. Now you all know that the longer your barrel is - the less exposure your boolet will have to the elements. Lookin at your dinky assed 20 incher - my 28 incher has 8 more inches of undisturbed flight it can impart on the boolet.

Besides that - we all know that the longer your barrel is, the better....ahh hell... never mind...

Ducking down for this one.....

ken hunter <>
Desert Country, Northern Va , USA (Under God) - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 03:13:51 (ZULU)


How's things coming along? Has 'BF' bit the dirt yet or is the story still unfolding? All the best there my friend.

Will be throwing together some serious M1A loads with the SA NM barrel and using the FN berdan brass. What's your favorite recipe to get this load cooking? Have on hand Hornady 168 A-Max, 178 A-Max and Sierra 175 SMKs. Lots of Varget on hand too but not sure about the powder with the ideal burn rate for the M1A with any of these pills.

I'll probably be calling you soon about getting the ARMS 18 mount good and solid. Got the quick detach ARMS rings in too but haven't had a chance to put that together either. Been a b***h of a summer...and not over yet :((

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 03:45:10 (ZULU)

 I am gone for a week on the wake up. If anyone should email, I will be back next weekend to answer. God Bless and keep you all.

 There is currently a hunt for an abducted little girl nearby- parents shot in their home. Hug those kids and be ever vigilent friends.



Bill Moore <>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 03:48:03 (ZULU)

Aw, come on Ken, short barrels are "In" I'd rather trust me bullet to 8"worth of the elements than to 8" worth of my hangover or bad coffee habit hanging on to the ass end of the rifle..I ain't come across a rifle yet that didn't improve some by chopping of some barrel, shorter is stiffer, every one likes a stiffy. ha ha ..

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 04:01:33 (ZULU)

Dateline Sundown Sagebrush country;

 I dismount my ole Chevy and head up the biggest sand hill I can find just to see if I can get up there one more time. The southeast all day wind has dropped. Sunset looms in the western sky like a thousand lazers and the colors take what little breath is left after the climb. I glass for anything moving but the sage is quiet. Nothing moves. I can't resist any longer and turn back toward the sunset. No rain till last week for 11 months. The prairie is stressed beyond belief. I Wonder if there are any coyotes left. ahhhhooooo! (who are you?) finally comes the call. 4 more follow from different directions. I pull my howler from my pocket. arrroooooeeee! > the old man that you know! I try to sound as real as I can . aoooweaarreee (Your slowin down comin up that hill old man!). yip yip...>Don't fret it rabbit chaser! I made it up the hill!) areeeooo..(That you did ole man! What you doin here so early.. it's only August.) ....>Just takin in the Sunset boys, can't afford to miss one anymore..

ypeeeeeeeeeeee! ...(Know what you mean...The rest of you kibitzers. shut up this ole man and me know each other..ok ole man   And how long we been meetin on this hill ole man?.);.>ahhhooooeeyip yip.>Bout 5 years I'd reacon since you sent that pup to check out my call and got him killed! ..(aroooeeehaa..well he was a dumb pup , he would never have lasted through the season anyway besides I wasn't really sure if that was a real rabbit, it coulda been. ....Well I guess you'll be back come October?)...> IF I make it that far ole dog! ... (I figured as much..hey if I've got this case of mange know the drill, I'd freeze to death this winter anyway right?)  ...>I'll keep it in mind ole dog! JUst don't get too careless this ole hill would be lonely sure nuff without you ole boys, that sunset was something but.... ahooo yip yip...( You humans just don't know how to appreciate that moon up there do you?)...>  Guess not like you dogs do! anyway..see you when the snow flies....yip yip arooo ( You still don't sound like a coyote with that thing!)..... Reckon I'll never learn it for sure! See you later. arpyipeerroooo (Not if we see you first! ) yip yip ..>ha! fat chance eagle bait! yip yahoo(We seen you 10 miles away .... hey leave me a few bitches just in case I make it thought the winter!)

>I'll consider it... stay off the highway ole sport!

Brogers < >
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 04:55:41 (ZULU)

'yote bait,

          If you could fill a book with that kind of prose it'd sell a million copies! Made me feel as if I was there. Great post, thanks.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 05:20:32 (ZULU)

Dennis Hill-I don't know if you check out but a lot of guys there have been complaining about the white box Winchester for some time now.  I just tried the Federal/Lake City white box XM193 and was suprized with the chrono consistancy.  Next week I'm going to run some more through the chrono and see if I was dreaming or not. It shot OK too(as far as "mil spec" fmj goes) you should give it a try, it's about the same price as the Win white box stuff...but works.

"Caution-This product contains natural rubber latex which may cause allergic reactions and gagging."

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, CA, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 06:35:50 (ZULU)

Rick Boucher - "Lito be careful with the 175s in your M21.  The trigger takes it tough from the heavy bolt recoil just as the operating rod does.  I have replaced two different triggers now from guys shooting those suckers from their Springfields."

Rick, are the 175s that much harder on the '14 than the 168s?  I'd like to use the same load (FGMM 175) for the bolt gun and the M21 to keep ammo types to a minimum and interchangeable.

How many cummulative rounds are causing this premature wear?  If it's grossly accelerated wear and tear, then using the 168s in the M21 would make sense.  


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 06:43:00 (ZULU)


Thanks for the tip, I've never tried that. I am almost always dealt a SW wind. Very limited shot angle due to narrow minded neighbors and airport management downtown. Range card shows min. 250 yd., max, over 1200 yd. so maybe I'll try to get behind 'em on the 1200 yd side. I'm shootin 223/55 Vmax @ 3200. Nobody, and I mean nobody liked the idea of anything larger from a management aspect. I've got a 600 Rem. in .243 that is wonderful for this kinda thing. The .308 was poo pooed from the start. The looks turned downright mean when I mentioned the .50 from the roof of the control tower. No sense of humor at all. I'm impressed with your composition, write a book before you climb that hill the last time. I'll take 2 copies. I'm late, see ya later,


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 10:36:02 (ZULU)

Brian (In)Sain ;-)

Haven't shot a .308 Varget load???????????


Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 12:24:57 (ZULU)

brian, Sinister,

I'm pretty sure you can get the S&B scopes in quarter minute adjustments as an option. You definately can in the new 4 turret PMII and as it is basically the same as the regular PMII 3-12x50 I can't see it being a problem. Especially if it's a LE or Military order.

At least everyone on a team would be talking the same language, even if is is those old fashoned Imperial units, eh Pete?

Mark D

PS Yotebait, I'll have a pint of whatever it is you've been drinking....;-))

Mark D <>
London, UK - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 13:00:23 (ZULU)

Mark D,

Can you post a link to the new PMII's with the 1/4 moa adjustment?  I have been over their web site quite a bit and can't find that as an option for the 34mm scopes.


How you feelin' mang?  Hope all betterer now, and youse back under the bridge (did I hear the bridge constructed of empty 8lbs VarGet kegs?) where you belong. ;))


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 13:32:34 (ZULU)

'yote bait,

You ornery old varmint, will you please hurry up and write that book so I can read it before it's too late?!?!?


Doc Holloway <>
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 13:36:38 (ZULU)

I admit it, I had to beat up Mike Miller for the AI sling.  Sorry.


Michael Roberts <>
MidMO, MO, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 14:08:28 (ZULU)

Mr. Sain,

You are hereby sentenced to drink beer from an empty 8# Varget container for the next 30 days. Bailiff, remove this man from my courtroom.


No 'yotes this mornin', either. Dang it!!!


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 15:18:00 (ZULU)

I haven't had to reload for some time.  I had been shooting IHMSA silhouette matches and loading for all that stuff (7BR, 7TCU, 7-30 Waters) prior to getting into law enforcement. Most of us were International class shooters with at least four guns and AAA class with the rest and we were shooting two to three matches a weekend SOMEWHERE in Texas or Louisiana not to mention the State matches, etc.

I was loading and shooting around 500 rounds a week counting the .22 stuff. Hell, I hunted with pistols for years.  Squirrels too.  THAT was fun.  10" Ruger auto w/ 3X Burris and RWS ammo. 1/2" grps off the bench at 50.  Ole man Burris sure was a cool ole guy before he died.  He used to take care of us if we had a problem. Great pistol scopes.

Had to quit it all when I went to work straight nights with no weekends off for seven years for less money.  Quit a good job to be a cop.  Hey, I never said I was smart. ha !

A mean ole divorce and two kids later, I can't afford to travel around and shoot like you guys.  Sure would be nice though.  If not for any other reason than to shut 'Lito up. ha ! just kidding lito.  Hell, I miss it all.

Sold all my old loading stuff except for some trimmers, a tumbler, etc.  Seems like there's plenty of better reloading stuff out there since I got out of competitive shooting in 88.

Sure would like to try some of that F Class stuff some day.

What's the hot ticket press and powder measure for rifle stuff these days anyway ?

Later ...

brian k. sain <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 15:35:55 (ZULU)

The courtroom comment reminds me of a joke.

Ole Coonass been huntin all day.  Ain't seen nuttin.  Gettin dark, a Pelican floats lazily by an de Coonass blasts him.

Gamewarden watched him do it and took him to jail.  The next morning at the arraignment, the judge says:

"Mr. Thibodeaux I see here that you a shot a pelican".


"Did you know it is against the law to shoot a pelican ?"


"Did you know that the pelican is an endangered species ?"


"Did you know that the pelican is the State bird of Louisiana ?"


"Well, knowing all that, why did you shoot the pelican ?"

"Your honor, my family was hungry.  I had hunted all day and not seen nuttin.  So I shot de pelican"

"Well son, that is probably the only thing you could have said that would allow me to let you go free. However, please do not shoot any more pelicans"


"You are free to go"

Thibodeaux turned and walked towards the door.  When he got to the door the judge asked "By the way Mr. Thibodeaux, what did that pelicean taste like".

"Thibodeaux turned, grinned at the judge and said

"Well your honor, it was kind of a cross between a bald eagle and a whooping crane".  

he heeeeeeeeeeeeee

Ya'll enjoy the weekend.

Go Texans !

brian k. sain <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 15:55:02 (ZULU)

The links to the Schmidt & Bender pages of interest are below;

Mark D

Mark D <>
London, UK - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 16:54:01 (ZULU)

In the news:  "Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon have voiced their opposition to US plans for a war on Iraq."

Those conclusions were reached after grave and extensive consultations with Baby Huey and Francis the talking mule.

Couldn't resist.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 17:23:48 (ZULU)


 HA! Whooping Crane - seen on of them AA'd from the air in SoDak back in the 70's. Poor thing made the mistake of flying over a berm full of hungry farmers while leaving a game preserve.

Any decent single stage press, and Redding Comp dies will get you by, measures are like "sniper scopes".

I like Reddings 3-BR measure but used an ancient RCBS for 25 + years with good results.

Haven't had any time to shoot between work, more quality family time since the wreck, and getting my new car settled in since I picked it up last week.

A Galaxy Silver '02 Monte Carlo LS (w/ sport package).

It was a Feng Shu thing to match Mrs. peteR's Galaxy Silver Chevy van, thought about "Varget1" for the tag Comments????? hee-hee

Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 17:28:01 (ZULU)

Hey Doc; how you doin after all the knife work anyway?  I got the big book done but 911 came along and kinda made me wanna wait a while on it. I haven't sent it to copyright or publisher yet..I don't think the world is ready. May never be! Ha.

I'd like to do a book about Wiley too, as I probably told you, Least I can do for him!  He'll win in the end though! Cause I won't be and he will!

Brogers < >
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 17:49:39 (ZULU)


My posts will be sporadic over the next 5-6 weeks and I will be at the Academy. Will probably post every 2-3 days. God, I'll miss the banter and comraderie of the daily readings...

On 175's in the M1A/M14. Old match shooters have told me that you can use up to 190's, but no heavier. Recoil impulse is more important and is dependent on the load/powder chosen. IMR 4895/Varget/4064 are all in the perfect burning range. Me? I'm sticking with 175's in my bolt guns and 168's in the gas guns...

Will be with 25 crazy officers the next six weeks. Probably the most asked question will be: "It comes in PINTS?"

More later, as time permits...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 18:15:58 (ZULU)

CDC, man I am waiting for Cookie Monster to weigh in on this.  Talked with Ernie and he said "Make a parking lot out of it"  I just need to know the official position of Sesamie Street on the Iraq issue befoe I decide. I will never get why anyone listens to a bunch of idiots who are hire to act/lie  to us on any issue.  I say ask the man who has to go there how he feels.  He has everything to lose not some freak who sits on his/her/its ass and acts important.  Not a slag to you I enjoy your posts its just why these jerks feel thier opinion should be important is beyond me.  Why some idiots follow them is even worse.  Me I will stick with Dave and Rick for advice on war.

Dave and others, on directions for my slings.  I no damm good at written directions. My webmaster is very good at making on line how to instructions.  Look at  under on line manual. Hell even I could follow those. He is updating and some photos my be old or not available right now. He does damm fine work and anyone buildinga  website should use this guy. You can contact him through a link on my site.

Peter, lets see you are in with SxB.  You get them for what we pay for a Leupold.  They are close if anything goes wrong.  What choice do you have God has spoken.  You need SxB's only!.  Damm fine scopes.  I still want my US Optics with a Second Gen Mildot reticle.  Rick I spewed all over the key board at the he did not invent it thing.  


Mike MIller <>
CA, - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 18:26:12 (ZULU)

yote bait,

Celebrated my first anniversary of the "grand opening" on 10 AUG and in about another week or two it will be a year since I had a Lucky Strike (I would still kill for one)!!!  No side effects except for discovering that I had asthma.  I've always been short-winded(except when runnin' my mouth) so it's not too bad.  I can still squeeze a trigger as well as the average old fart of sixty-five.

Saaaavage shooters,

I finally got fed up with that plastic POS stock on my 10FP Tactical .223 and ordered a stock from Stockade.  Will try it without and with bedding and write a review on it.  Kevin, I guess he's the boss, is very easy to work with and very helpful.  Should have the stock by the end of the week.


Doc Holloway <>
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 18:26:15 (ZULU)

Hollywood couple oppose Bush war on Iraq.......


Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon have voiced their opposition to US plans for a war on Iraq.

They spoke at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe about their roles in a play about the September 11 attacks.

Sarandon said that she didn't think a military expansion of violence was the solution.

She said: "First you have to ask the right questions and we haven't formed the right questions on what's going on in the world right now.

"No, I don't think I would want to go to war against Iraq."

The actress said one of the positive results of the September 11 attacks was that it gave America something in common with other countries who have fallen prey to terrorism.

"Afterwards, I said to my kids: 'We've joined the rest of the world now'," she said.

"You're so lucky in Ireland, England and Spain. Everyone there already knows what it's like to have inexplicable terrorist violence."



Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 20:10:33 (ZULU)

Mike, will try the sling in October for the Butner Long Range Matches, (if back from overseas).

Mike in London, my ideal scope would have German or Austrian enhanced crystal (ED or fluorite) glass, 42 mm but no bigger than 50mm objective, 1/2 minute elevation clicks a la the Leupold M3LR for 100 to 1100 yards in one turn (no cap over the turret like the M3), have a mil-dot or Premier Gen II reticle, a 30mm body tube, and be a 3.5 or 4 to 16 zoom.  Parallax adjustment on the side a la Leupold Mark 4s.  Waterproof.  Badger rings with a SIMRAD bracket.  Not weigh as much as a Night Force.

Just tore the rim off a Lake City 98 7.62 M118LR case in my Dillon 550B (not enough lube in an RCBS Small Base sizing die).  Took out the case with a Redding stuck case remover, but bent the die's decapping rod.  1-800 RCBS Customer Service first thing in the morning.

Mark in Texas, I think 44 grains of Varget will be a good loading for 165, 168, 175, and 178 grain bullets for .308 general purpose use (targets from 500-900 yards out of a 24 to 26-inch barrel).  Lots of excellent bullets in that range (Sierra Game Kings, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Match Kings, and A-MAXs).

45 grains of Varget in an M14 with a moly-ed Match King is maximum (cases will stick and the rifle will not reliably function as an autoloader with raw bullets).  I'd recommend no more than 44.5 grains, and preferably Pete's 44 grain as max if using in both bolts and autos.

I will no longer shoot the M14 at 1,000 with iron sights due to my older eyes, so no longer need maximum charge Varget loads.  44 does well in my bolt guns (a 24-inch Krieger barrel, a 24-inch Winchester M70 barrel, and a 26-inch 700VS factory barrel).  45 grains causes a sticky bolt lift on the Krieger-barreled 700.

Pete, glad to hear you're coming back to fighting trim.

Sinister Dave <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 21:27:29 (ZULU)

Doc,congrats on quittin the smokes, I been off 'em a month and not missin it much.Been usin nicotine tabs.Who makes the savage stock,and can you tell me where theres some pics on the net?Theres prbably a lot better riffles around than savages but I got 6 head shots with 6 rounds Saturday night spotlightin 'roo's out to about 200m and I think the savage will serve my purposes for the forseeable future.New stock with a bit of rigidity and better shape would be good.



Gavan Willis <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 21:48:33 (ZULU)

I was at the range today and had something happen that has not happened to me before and would like to run it past the group.

I was shooting at 400yds and all my groups were 5 inches to the right and 2 1/2 inches low. I was shooting a Rem700P-308, MK4 M3,Badgers, my usual home rolls. Groups were about MOA,temp 88 degrees, no wind, minimal mirage,light was about 7 O'clock angle. I was able to see the entire circle in the scope,checked for cant,adjusted for paralax, made sure there was no windage adjustment on the scope. I shot 20 times and all were in a 5 inch group just low right. Went to the 100yd line and zero was spot on. Any suggestions?


TonyM <>
FL, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:06:30 (ZULU)

Mark D,

Thanks for the links.  I see now why I didn't find them on the US webpage.  I'm not too fond of the battery housing/illuminated reticle being an extra turret, but if it works who cares.


You see that mang???  Can you get your hands on these yet?  Why don't you have one?  I can see that performance bonus mounted atop another set of 34mm rings ;)))

Has any of youse Hawgs had to use Nightforce's repair service yet?  Just want to get a feel for what I'm in store for. If it's nasty, please hit my offline.  Not looking for a shitstorm or to hurt a companies image un-necessarily.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:07:51 (ZULU)


How did your 300 and 200 yard groups look? The 2" low isn't a problem because it is probably just a velocity difference between your rifle/load and the dial but the 5" to the right sounds like your reticle wasn't perfectly vertical when the scope was mounted. Check the other ranges if you haven't and see if the groups start to slowly move to the right as you move your elevation up. If so you might have to remount the scope and make sure the reticle is vertical. This can be done by hanging a plum line out and checking the reticle against it with the rifle perfectly vertical. You can test that by putting a level on the mount.

Rob01 <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:29:08 (ZULU)

To All;

  Remember, everyone has the right to be stupid. Even celebrities. Maybe I should send Susan Saranwrap some kudzu and fire ants for her yard, too. I wouldn't want her to feel "unlucky" or anything. We have enough for her and Saddam.


  That was a great post.


  Please keep us informed on the Savage stock. That's my next step.


  I wouldn't consider putting a new barrel, trigger, etc. on a Mini.

I have one from the early '80s, has the Ruger wood folding stock, Ruger 30 round mags, and all the "assault" stuff from back then.

  It is a fun gun, but not a serious gun. It has never failed, has been rugged, and pretty accurate at under 150 yards. It will shoot 1.5 inch group with 55 gr Sierra BlitzKings with iron sights at 150 yards. Noy very predictable out farther though. Hell on armadilloes!

  If you want a tack driver, get a good bolt gun. If you just have to have a gas gun with good accuracy, you should go the AR route. Either way you'll spend less money than you would on modifying the Mini to do the same thing and be better off.

        LATER   Y"ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:39:01 (ZULU)

On the Mini-14 - did not old Bravo have one that he had done up and swore by (not at?) but I guess he is a big M-25 fan too so you never know what he is doing:)

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:51:35 (ZULU)


Lock, Stock, & Barrel is the only outfit that I'm aware of, other than the manufacturer, who is handling Stockade stocks.  Their address is:

Not too much in the way of photos on their web site; but quite a bit of tech info.  They also handle Bell & Carlson who is also making a Savage 10 stock.  The Stockade has an aluminum internal skeleton while the B&C doesn't.


Doc Holloway <>
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 22:55:26 (ZULU)

>>Mark in Texas, I think 44 grains of Varget will be a good loading for 165, 168, 175, and 178 grain bullets for .308 general purpose use (targets from 500-900 yards out of a 24 to 26-inch barrel).  Lots of excellent bullets in that range (Sierra Game Kings, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Match Kings, and A-MAXs).<<

Last time I did any serious loading for a 308 gas gun was when I had an HK91. A very disappointing rifle in the accuracy dept.... in my experience. But then again there were some things back then that I didn't know now ;)) Best powder at the time was IMR 4064. I also used the same powder but a 150 gr. Sierra in a Rem. 600 Mohawk. Nice accurate little rifle.

Currently, my best load for my 700P/AI is 43.5 Varget/175 SMK/Win brass/Federal 210M. Accuracy holding up extremely well @ 900 yd +. The M1A for LR work is new to me and am wondering if Varget is still the best powder. If not, then I would think that 4064 or 4895 would suffice. Beyond that I'm in new territory.

yote bait,

Damn good writing. I can remember lots of times being on the Canadian River, Wolf Creek, or on the Salt Fork of the Red, listening to just what you're talking about....along about sunset. Never fails. Only a Plainsman can understand.

Mark W


Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 23:09:19 (ZULU)

Bill - STOP IT MAN!!!  My keyboard will not take anymore coffee.  IT is coffee'd out!  :-)

Moe - Yes, in my experence, if you load it up like the M1118LRs or higher.  Ihave two guys now that have had trigger failure, read that broken sears and sear sear pins.  I believe it is due to the hammer coming back and really whacking that light in the butt sear.  Remember the weapon was designed to handle military ammo at about 150 to 155 grains.  The limit I would go to would be 170 grains and then the 168 should not be pushed to much past 2700.  The guns had less then 1000 rounds on them at failure.  One had about 400 to 500 if I remember correctly.  that was last year so my memory is fading some.  Just my observations and I may have observed some real crap workmanship.  But a gas gun will never hold hte loads that the bolt gun will.  I know that will get some dander up.  :-)

Brian - Can yo spell Promethius?  Only problem is the expense.  I'll let you look it up and gag.  HE HE HA HA HO HO.  :-)

Mike - Glad I'm no tht eonly one spewing all over the keyboard.  The S&B is a very good scope we have several coming our way for demoing.  Would like to see the Gen II in them as well.  Had a guy ask me why we bother with dots since the lasers are so good.  I told him that dots don't have batteries.  He looked at me like a hog looking at a wrist watch.  Hmmmm.  Some will never get the techno stuff needs backup.

DOC!!! - Congrates man, I had my last on the night of 23 Nov 1999.  It gets better but it does not go away.  I can go for days without thinkig about it and then I will get one of those millisecond NOW DAM IT NOW, cravings and then it is gone again.  Hang in there.  I know you smoked as much as I did as a minimum but hell, I smoked form mid fifties to 1999 and the last 10 years was over three packs a day.  When I couldn't smoke, I had a chew in my mouth so take it from there as to how hooked I was.

Once again I am amazed at the ability of the anointed of Hollywood, who do live in fantasy world, to not realize nor care that the US has been under numerous terrorist attacks prior to Sep 11.  We are only just now getting around the Hollywood annointed to actually do something about it.

I hope she, Tom Cruise, Baldwin and wife, etc find a very happy home in other parts of the world.  I can recoemmend a few,  Saudi would love to get the lovely ladies set up as special people, unable to move about the country unless accompanied by a male member of the family.  They wouldn't have to worry about renewing any paperwork as they aare not allowed to have paperwork, thus requiring them to travel with a male member fo the family.  How about Pakastan where they could be raped by decree fo the elders for something that a male member of hte family did.  Oh hellnever mind.  They are not worth it.

TonyM - I would wait a day and try again.  You had a 1/2 minute elevation error and that can happen just form what you ate that day.  The 1 moa right could be a combination of several small to make a big.  I would shoot it againa nd if it disappears then go through your mind of everything you did and ate or didn't eat that day.  Another problem is what was the wind doing when you zeroed and did you zero point of aim point of impact.  If you did and you had 1/4 to 1/2 moa wind going then you could have had a 1/4 to 1/2 moa wind blowing the opposite way at 400.  This would conspire to a 1/2 to 1 moa error due to a mis windage zero.  Look at it this way, a 6 to 8 mph wind would move the bullet about 1/3 inch at 100.  You zero to get point of aim point of impact and you have induced a 1/4 or 1/2 moa error in your scope depending on where you settled your zero and what your scope settings are adjusted at (.25 shudder, .5 or 1 moa adjustments).  Now you have say 1/2 moa left on the gun by error due to the left to right wind.  You go to 400 and you have a 4 mph right to left wind.  That 4 mph is worth about 5 inches, add the extra 2 inches in windage error and you have a shift of 5 to 7 inches.  Nothing magic and a very common error when zeroing.  Not saying this is your problem, just bringing up those dreaded possiblities.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 23:26:18 (ZULU)

Guys, for the first time ever I have something bad to say about S&B, wife said I got a package from S&B in the post begining of last week, new catalogue tech info, sales bumpf etc. I aint seen it yet,and i wondered why i hadn't had anything on the new scopes, now i know why, i think maybe i got a bit to?? lets say emotional and pissed some one off last time i spoke to them. Anyways I had a look at the links Mark posted," what the F%$#@," I'm pissed off, the guy at S&B who is in charge of new developements needs a kick up the jacksie,and i mean to tell him so. I've been tellin and tellin em,what the should produce is a scope with paralax adjustment and illumination adjustment a la NXS  in one (and not an add on after though of a 4th turret). A 3-12 and 4-16 x42,a 10x42 with side paralax, i guess the optional 1/4 moa adjustment is aimed at the US market, (and is in my opinion a step backwards, but it might be the only thing that will make that scope sell, maybe you guys with the caveman measurements can now get the original PMII's with the 1/4 adjustments)

That damn illumination control is in the frigging way, you cant see the damn parallax adjustment for it, not without sticking yer head up or out some , its in the way as far as mounting is concerned,you now have limited space to put rings on the damn tube (maybe not so much of a problem with a full length rail) but where do i mount my ACI? i have it mounted now exactly where the 4th turret is( and yep i can see past it to turret nr 3 without having to stick my bonce up in the air).

Those buggers know how to build quality optics and I've no doubt that the scope is technicaly and opticaly superb, but the f%$#@rs haven't given a shit bit of a thought to ergonomics,4 turrets is just confusing, and they just don't seem to be able to comprehend what the damn market needs, They just made a major step backwards and have lost many sales to the NXS, I'm sure of it.'Maybe Nightforce will produce an NXS with a 42mm obj and 1cm (@100m) adjustments and 50moa of elevation in one turn, if they do i'll buy one and drop it of at S&B and tell em to copy the sucker(or stick it up the inovations managers ass). I for one will not be buying one of these new S&B scopes, I am disapointed, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 23:46:22 (ZULU)

Tony the 50 Builder, welcome back!  Hadn't seen your handle in a while and it was nice to see your post in the early August archive.

Mark, I had used 4064 for the M14 for the longest time, but after starting with the M16 (and trying Pete's advice) settled on Varget for both 7.62 and 5.56 (saves on having cans of different stuff in the garage).  43.5 of 4064 puts ten 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips on top of each other out of a 26-inch 700VS, and will send 175 Match Kings to 900 yards out of a 22-inch M14 (they are subsonic at 1,000 out of an M-14).

Andy's Dad, good luck at Raton (I will be following my boys to the US Parachuting National Championships in Chicago, so will not be going to New Mexico).  I understand the winds in Raton are quite "Sporting".  Ed Huskins from the SOTIC Committee will be going, and he's a wealth of knowledge (most of the Palma queers will also be there, so if talk about barrels, bullets, primers, sights, wind calling, reloading, stocks, etc. bores you -- well, a rainbow decal on the rifle stock, a big fluorescent pink triangle on the Camelback, and earring on the right side will get you a different angle of conversation going.  "It's a lifestyle choice" and "It doesn't make you a bad person" will get them talking about stuff other than riffles and shooting [run when you hear "Git a rope!"]).

Mitch Maxberry (a noted highpower rifleman) had a very interesting .308 bolt gun at Perry for the long range matches.  He had a Remington 40X action in a long aluminum tube which served as the butt, sleeve, and forearm, with a 30-inch barrel.  In New Zealand he can also experiment with suppressors (no NFA 1934 rules there), and the gun shot exceptionally well without having a conventional stock.

What happened to our Europals (torsten, torf, Hexa)?  Hope the floods didn't affect any Roster hogs.

Gavan, the Arizona National Guard State Marksmanship NCOIC (Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks) said the Australian combat matches in November also have a three day roo and rabbit shoot after.  Pictures from last year and the stories were a hoot.

Sinister Dave <>
- Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 23:59:09 (ZULU)

Any of you guys out there a dealer for Rocky Boots??  I need some assistance on getting a pair returned.  The soles have cracked.  Rocky will not allow me to send them back directly.  I won a silent auction at a DU banquet so I have no receipt, or contact information. So I need to go through a dealer that can help me resolve this issue.

Please hit me offline if you think you can help.

Thanks for your assistance.

Jim Abbott

ASK Distributors

Texas Distributor for Starlight Cases !!!!!!!!!

Jim Abbott <>
Flower Mound, Texas, USA - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 00:35:59 (ZULU)


Damn, I thought about the parallax obstruction but dismissed it as I don't look at it anyway,, I set it by moving my head each time.   I don't really care for illuminated reticles so the fourth turret isn't really necessary IMO, but mounting the scope never came to mind while I was looking. I'd have to agree, that was pretty damn stupid.  Can you see if the old model PMII's will be available with 1/4 moa? That is, provided your still allowed on the premissis.

I was talkin' today about putting together a Palma (match) Rifle....  guess I'll pass now. ;))

Any of you have any expierence with the import knock off's or new US made Sharps model 1874's in 45-70 or 45-120?  I can't seem to shake them after handling one last weekend.  They have a black powder 1K shoot in TN a few times a year...  That could be real interesting.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 00:36:45 (ZULU)

Welp, 3 weeks of honey-do's are about over. New siding, new windows, 2 new storm doors, 2 new decks and a planter. Only thing left is a new front porch to be done this winter. So broke I couldn't rub a nickel enough to make the buffalo fart!

Shooting time has been non-existant and vacation is coming on fast. Hope to get back to the range and Butner by the end of September. Been reading the Roster periodically but have a lot to catch up on.

Worn out old fart, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 00:37:30 (ZULU)

have any of you had exp. with ars out of odessa,tx custom work on the mini14. the web site seems real prof.  . i am really trying to get a rifle built at a reasonable cost and accurate also.any help is valued much. any one that knows of any smiths , builders point me that way thanks.

beckrodgers <>
bartlett, tn, usa - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 01:50:42 (ZULU)


Check to see that the scope not twisted in the rings.  Either that or possibly you are twisting the rifle as you shoot.  If things are dead on at 100 and right and low at 400, then what you are doing if things are not alligned properly is adding windage and subtracting elevation.  It will get more pronounced as you get farther out.  It could also be wind swirling and other coditions but Master Rick covered those, and since no one has mentioned the scope canting as a possibility for the error I bring it to your attention. Hope it helps solve the problem.  This is the reason scopes are kept as close to the bore as possible.

Sinnister Dave.  Thanks for the tip on the Tub Carrier weight.  Tried the Tubb weight in my AR-10 T and like the results. The big thing I noticed is the reduced recoil and smoother cycling.  

Take care  

Titan <>
Keep "Under God" right where it is!!!!, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 01:51:14 (ZULU)

Rob,Rick, and CDC:

Thanks for the reply. This is the same combo I have been shooting for months without any problems. I tried to be aware of cant after the first group but, they all went in the same spot anyway. As far as eating, I didn't have anything to eat until after I came home from the range. Maybe I just had gas or something. Will try again next weekend and see if it happens again. The only thing I can think of that was different today was the target was in the shade instead of in the sun.

TonyM <>
FL, USA - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 02:07:23 (ZULU)

Non-Sniper/Long Range shooting question.

Is there a place on the internet to get a price on a used firearm?  Blue Book of Gun Values wants 10 bucks for a report.

If interested, it's an 1993/4 limited production Marlin '94 in .25-20.



Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 02:36:49 (ZULU)

Doc; I'm very mighty glad you shix canned the white sticks. That's a good step my man! Me and yo mama are proud of ya!

Mark; ditto on the plains talk! YOu're right... only a plainsman.

Gang; thanks on the dog post! I was hesitant but thought maybe somebody might pick up on it! Lincoln makes me jealous on hunting stories anyway the scum bag gets to hunt all time.

beckrodgers, I've shot one of those rifles you asked about. We took on on trade and couldn't resist trying it. It was real heavy but shot .5 MOA all day. Trigger was adequate and feed was real good. Don't know how you'll manage the quick attach scope mount. The rifle we had ... had weaver style bases. One of the B square AR-15 blocks could be used to remove scope with return to zero dead on.. but will add a few more ounces to the overall weight. They had a Walnut stock fitted perfectly with a Thumb hole stock I believe if I remember right.  You will need to change the barrel for accuracy just so you'll know.

Brogers < >
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 02:48:55 (ZULU)

I am needing some spare parts for an H&K BASR (Bolt Action Sniper Rifle) that is really nothing more than a McMillan type 86 action. I'm looking for the bolt stop and this bolt guide kind of thing that snaps on to the bolt body. Does anyone know anything abotu this action and why it would have this "groovy" pardon the pun, feature?

Also if anyone knows anything about why a McMillan marked action would also say HK I'd like to know. The H&K fanatics have told me that, A. this is pretty rare and B. a bolt action H&K is about as interesting as an H&K revolver...losers! I think it's going to be a great little rifle once I get all the paint off of it. BTW this was an Aurora CO PD trade in. I hate to tell you what I paid for it but I think there may be another if someone is interested let me know and I'll give you the name of the gun shop.

Matt Flaherty <>
Boulder, Co, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 03:07:39 (ZULU)


>>>Any of you have any expierence with the import knock off's or new US made Sharps model 1874's in 45-70 or 45-120?I can't seem to shake them after handling one last weekend.  They have a black powder 1K shoot in TN a few times a year...That could be real interesting.<<<

Given a choice, I'd go with the Shilo Sharps (Big Timber, MT)in a heartbeat. Their attention to time period authenticity and detail along with their reputation for accuracy puts them ahead of anything else (my opinion). The Pedersoli Sharps is also very good and accurate as well. I've seen several of these hold their own at competitions. **ALSO (I love this edit thingy) if you order a Shiloh today, their turnaround time is about 3 years.**

Question is, what do you want to do with it? In practicality, go with the 45-70. It's much more comfortable to shoot as opposed to the larger calibers and brass is cheaper. Now, you mentioned the 45-120. That is not an original Buffalo cartridge even though it was brought out after the great buffalo slaughter. The cartridge I speak of is the 45-120 X 3 1/4 (not an original Sharps chambering). Now the 45-110 X 2 7/8 is original (as in used during the 1870s). This also is the cartridge that Tom Selleck used in the Quigley Down Under movie. The 45 X 2 7/8 is an awesome cartridge with a kick to match.

If you purchase a Quigley style rifle, crescent butt plate and all, it will punish you like nothing else, I guarantee it. So be advised, do you want it for authenticity or plan to shoot it a lot?

**Side note here. A couple of years ago, I had the pleasure of seeing the Big Fifty Sharps (50-90 X 2 1/2) that belonged to J. Wright Mooar. It was the rifle he used to kill the only white buffalo in Texas. The hide still hangs in the family home and you can still see the bullet entry hole on the right shoulder of the hide. Sometime after the turn of the century, Teddy Roosevelt offered Mooar $10,000 for the hide. Mooar turned it down of course.**

The Sharps rifle was the original 'cartridge' (sniper) rifle, IMO ;) As Comanche Chief Quanah Parker said of the mighty Sharps, "Hmmph, shoot today, kill you tommorrow."

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 03:32:34 (ZULU)

beckrodgers <>
bartlett, tn, Usa - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 03:53:27 (ZULU)

Mark W,

I plan on using it for hogs and possibly a deer or two.  Nothing special.  I'd like to try it at 1K also, just to see.  I was hoping 45-70 would make it, but have ZERO expierence with a 45-70 past 220 yards.  I too would prefer a Shilo, but used ones are $2000 on the low end and ave. $2500.  That's more coin than I have for something I'll shoot maybe 45 times a year.  The rifle will be for draggin in the woods, but I'd like to stay at or above 28" and have the heat treated receiver and heel plate and long range creedmore sights.

They are certainly nice old rifles, and very interesting.

Thanks for the info, it's appreciated.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 03:55:37 (ZULU)

Fatboy. Chris dude, you needs to spend less time workin'and less time thinkin about which gun your gonna hunt with, just grab one and get into them there woods, your freezer is to empty. I just got told by me wife that she emptied a freezer ( our 3rd) and she wants it taking to the dump, I'm thinking, what has she done? I hope she has boiled out all me deers heads and cleaned em off,(one freezer was full of trophie heads) but i doubt it, most probably the damn out(in)laws are sat chewing on all my bambi sausage right now, shit it was dragoninlaws birthday yesterday, ( i'm glad i missed it, but i can guess why my freezer is emptied) hell I'm gonna have to do some hunting if she's given all my meat to charity. aw hell, just when i was enjoying a few days off..


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 04:21:25 (ZULU)


As a matter of history, one of the best cartridges developed for LR Creedmore was the 45-100 X 2.6. Was one of the best for 1K shooting. It didn't reign for very long as the smokeless powders and cartridges quickly took over. It's not anything unusual to see a good black powder load in a 45-70 shoot ten shot 5-8" groups @ 500M with open sights. This is at the ram line too and hitting ten in a row isn't anything uncommon either in BPCR Silhouette.

I KNOW they use the 45-70 at Raton, N.M. for the LR matches. It's currently the 2nd most used cartridge in BPCR, second only to the 40-65. They used to shoot @ 1K at Raton, but it became a little too dangerous for those working the pitts at the target line as the big bullets were dropping out of the sky at too steep of an angle. Last I heard they were shooting @ 800 yards.

The 45-70 is more than capable of terminal velocity at LR but the problem more so is knowing the distance. The rainbow trajectory typical of these old cartridges makes getting a hit a real challenge.

I don't know whether you plan to load black or smokeless powder but would advise to go with the 500-550 gr. lead bullet for LR work.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 04:25:25 (ZULU)

Bravo; fancy meeting you here. Well, anyway. Good advice! Definitely good.

Sharps; I've shot the Quigley by the Italians.   The ladder sight wasn't a match for the 45-70 but what else is new?  It is heavy on your mule's back but doesn't kick terrible even though it has the iorn butt plate. I'm thinkin the 45-120 might tend to kick a bit though....maybe more than a bit. You won't wanna pack it unless your hunting from a blind. 300 was a long shot for it however with smokeless factory loads, I think Black Powder loads would be much better. Last I looked the Cartridges were $100 for 20. You can get brass though and beat that by rollin your own bullets. I also had a EMF... 45-70  fun but nothing special in the quality or accuracy dept. It's a cool gun anyway you slice it. Quannah found out about the Sharps the hard way down there at the Walls eh Mark? Some day I'm gonna have another one. I heard that somebody stole Buffalo Jones' Sharps rifles out of the Garden City Kansas Museum. Dammmit! Scum suckers are thick these days.

Brogers < >
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 04:30:45 (ZULU)

Kevin (GWN),


            I believe that Bravo was thinking about spending lots o' bucks having a Ru...Ruu.... Mini 14 built (cause he loves the M14 so), but after he posted that sentiment enough negative stuff was flying about that he reconsidered. I think he wound up having an AR Carbine (CQB-style) made up. Oh, gee, Hi Bravo. You pop up in the weirdest places!


           Get on some AR-15 sites, look through SGN and GL for sales. Now that a guy can get an Olympic Arms 'Plinker' for $500. or their PCR-16 (w/full-float) for $580. there's no excuse to buy a you-know-what! These Olympics are brand new, not kits, and have lifetime warranty. There are more out there if you just look for 'em.

BTW - these prices aren't much more than at Wally World, are they?


     I've got the utmost respect for Rick's shooting abilities and Knowledge of the craft. And I'm sure not a SOTIC Instructor. But if his suggestions don't do it for you I must agree with Titan. I got bit by the cant bug earlier this season, and it took two weeks of self- discipline to "straighten it out";-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 04:41:51 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave:

I'm still lurking around...

Brian K. Sain:

IHMSA unlimited pistols, those were the days! AAA-shoter. I had a XP100/Western thumbhole stock and barrels in 7mm BR and 6,5X250 Savage. The pistol was very accurate over sandbags. I actually carried mine in a couple of military exercises when I was issued a G3. The XP was then topped with a 4x Leupold LEE with target turrets. I had no problem hitting things out to 450 meters with it. I think the XP topped with a small videocamera and a helmetmounted display would have made an absoulutly awsome trench-sniper. Nothing would be exposed to the enemy. Even the hands are behind cover. No thermal signature. Still the XP would take out whatever out to 400-500meters.

Speaking of BR-rounds. In Europe the 6mm BR, Norma version, is making a clean sweep in international 300m hipower rifle. "Nobody" shoots 6,5 or 308 at top level anymore.


TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 08:47:20 (ZULU)

Thanks Doc,I'll check it out.

Sinister,was that the AASAM shoot down here,you mentioned? I was there in '97,and it was one of the highlights of my life,5 days shootin,gettin paid for it,ammo & rifle supplied,ammo &m60 supplied,ammo & 9mm browning supplied,tax free rum to drink,2000 kliks from wife & kids.I thought it almost made up for all the other crap the army can dish out.I reckon they should do a lot more roo shootin,give the lads a bit of real life type trainin and dispell some of the absolute bullshit about what happens when an ss109 projectile contacts a living thing.I'll take a 69smk any time.



Gavan Willis <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 09:31:34 (ZULU)

Reloading Hawgs,

Due to an unfortunate "accident" (premeditated carelessness?), I have to pull bullets from 60 rounds I loaded Sat. nite.  Brass is new neck sized Lapua.  I'm going to immediately reload 'em.  Question is should I pull the deprimer pin from my necksizer die and resize the neck again?  Cases in question are .308 and bullets are 175 SMK.

Bought an inertia puller Sat and it won't even budge the bullets.  Don't have a collet style puller and can't find one locally so I'm going to sacrifice the bullets and use a pair of vice grips & my press to pull the bullets.

The gods of the Long Range Thunderstick did not smile on me this past weekend.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 13:45:22 (ZULU)


I sent you a mastercard commercial. Scan it to make sure its clean and then watch it. It's priceless.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 14:17:58 (ZULU)

First I want to apologize to Mike Miller; if I hadn't shown the guys your other slings, they wouldn't have demanded an AI version!  If you'd quit building quality stuff, you wouldn't be pestered <ha>

On a more serious note, the list of our KIA's to date in Operation Infinite Justice is at

Here's to those who've paid the ultimate price for us.

Best, John

John <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 14:30:12 (ZULU)

Torf:  In '87, I bought a box stock XP in 7BR.  Loaded up some stuff, got me some sight settings and shot it in my first match the next day.  Shot my first 40 that day, first time out.  QUALIFIED International class in Unlimited International. They still talk about me hollering when that last ram fell.

Then, I turned around and beat five of the best in the country in the shootoff.  I had to shoot first because I was new and I hit six chickens @ 200 meters.  Never expected to win against them so I felt no match pressure.  Put that match monkey on their back and everybody else hit five apiece.

Next match, they kicked my ass all over the range. he hee.  

Got a nice 12 point in the office I neck shot with it too.

Good times.  Good friends.  

Later bro,


brian k. sain <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 14:36:32 (ZULU)

On AICS and slings, BTW, I have an alternate method that is a bit quieter.  I took one of Mike's "normal" quick-cuff slings, and just attached it using 550 cord.  I ran two loops through the front and rear AICS points, and just tied it through the standard end loops of the sling.

Worked great, carried that Gardner built tank for 9 days worth of fun andf games [it was a blast] at Badlands in June.  Gave the rifle a decent field workout.  There was no visible wear on the paracord afterwards either, but I'd look at it each time you clean your rifle.  PMCS is good.

Mike and others have suggested just duct taping the crap out of it, which works, and I've done to uncle's guns, but think it's a poor design on AI's part that it's like that (and I normally wouldn't want to do it to any of my guns).  Also, some of us are looking into a way to remove the "rattle" from the sling attachment bar itself; even if using the paracord, or duct tape method, this part still rattles.

John <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 14:40:04 (ZULU)

Powder measure for rifle varget loads...

Get the $15 lee powder as good as any of the high priced ones....heck, get one for each rifle, cut down on setup time.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 14:53:46 (ZULU)


Reading all the post on the scope thread. I am not LE or active Miltary, However I do shoot out to 1000yds. I also use the same rifle for hunting....

With that said. I like Varible Power Scopes. I had a Loopy Vari X III 3X10 M1. I wanted a scope with more power than 10...Looked at US Optics, S&B, Burris, Kahles and again Loopy.

I bought the Nightforce 5X22 NXS. I know alot of you wouldn't even consider this scope. However it is one very nice scope.

When I put my head on the stalk, I instantly see the 56MM forward objective. I never wiggle my head. (This was a problem with the above Loopy). PS I decided to go with the NPR2 Reticle. Lines every 2MOA for Hunting Purposes. With a 100yds zero, I have up to 20MOA in the reticle. Which allows very quick targeting of a soon to be dead critter.

Did I mention 100MOA of elevation....Now for the big question, Reliability...I do not know for sure. But I have seen these scopes mounted on 50's for over a year now with know problems...So a 300WM shouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, my first opinion of this scope is that they are damn good scopes.  


bryan <>
CA, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 15:23:03 (ZULU)


Did you ever bed the A4 stock you wrote about? If you did, was there a notable improvement?



John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 15:27:12 (ZULU)


>"Now if I can get USO to offer the Gen2 and bring the price down we will have something to talk about."<

I think Dick Thomas might have somfin' to say about that... he has patents/copyrights on that reticle... with over 200 reticles available from USO(??), USO shouldn't need to rip off Dick to sell scopes.

And I don't think he needs to be payin' all those lawyers any more of his money, cuz the scopes will get more expensive :((



I have a Gen 1 SA scope with the 7.62 reticle (and one other, with the .223 reticle)... had it for 10 years, and I like it, the rangefinder is vry good, and extreamely fast to use (about 4 seconds) but a bit clutered for some.  Some people have had troubles with electric switches on the the Gen 2 and Gen 3, but SA has good service.

As to optical qulaity they are better than others in their price range, but not blinding.  I LOVE the built in bubble level... I'd buy them again for what I use them for.



Yeah, I know ;)))  Goes around, comes around ;)))


Brian (IN)sain... ;)

44 gr Varget, 175 SMK, Winchester of Fed210M primer, and good cases (Win, or Lapua)... workie real gud!  This is not a max load, but start at 42 in case his stick is a POS.

Good presses are the Redding single stage (the new BIG one), the Hornady "L&L" single stage, and the king of the mountain, the C-H Champion, but that one is about $270 :((

Powder measure... get the Redding 30-BR for about $110 from the mail order houses.


Jaeger Dudeski...

Very Badd puppie... You missed the "Trigger Recoil" thingie... the line is:

>"It's an AK-47, I can tell by the sound of the trigger recoil"<... now which pussie asshole said that line? ;))

Speakin' of movie lines... here's one that maybe only the old fossils like myself, Rick-ster, 'yote Bate, Sir Wesley, CDC, and Sinister might know... it is:

>"What is that, I can't make it out... what is that, I can't make it out"<

Free beer to anyone under 35 that can tell me which charactor said it, and which GREAT movie it was from (gotta come to Connecticut to collect :((



On longer barrels... surveys prove that chicks prefer longer barrels by 8 to 1 ;))


Moe... it's not that the 175's are "hard" on the M14 family, it's that the 175 needs a slower powder, and the slower powder causes the gas port pressure to exceed the 14,000 PSI upper limit, and the op-rod velocity is increased enough that it beats the crap out of the system.  The size of the hole on the barrel is designed for 12,000 to 14,000 PSI.  If you could have the hole drilled about 5% to 8% smaller, you could run 175's at 2685 with no problems... if not, then keep the velocities a little light on the 175,s and it will be OK... work up the loads until you can hear the OP-rod hitting the receiver, then back off 1/2 grain.


Don Smith... they should come out in an inertia puller, just whack them on a cement sidewalk or driveway.  But for the future, order a good puller from one of the maloeder places... I use mine all the time ;))

Don't bother re-necksizing... the new bullets will seat fine.  I have a bunch of these tee shirts!!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 15:29:10 (ZULU)

yote bait,

>>It's a cool gun anyway you slice it. Quannah found out about the Sharps the hard way down there at the Walls eh Mark?<<

Cool, extremely accurate...and very deadly.

Yeah, you take 700+ extremely p****d off Comanche, Kiowa, Cheyenne and Arapahoes against a couple dozen buffalo hunters and you'd think the victory was easily in grasp. Didn't turn out that way, did it? Ishita (Comanche for coyote shit) being the medicine man that he was made all kinds of wild claims during war council. Like the white mans bullets would have no effect on them at all. He really took it on the chin after that. No buffalo for him that night ;))

I had my 40-70 Sharps Straight with me at Adobe Walls once and could've done some shooting at the same backstops that the buffalo hunters used but didn't have any ammo with me. There were several cowboys there that ran the Turkey Track Ranch and they sure wanted to shoot it too. That would've really thrown a loop at the future archaeologists ;))

>>>I heard that somebody stole Buffalo Jones' Sharps rifles out of the Garden City Kansas Museum. Dammmit!<<<

That's a real problem with museums these days. Here locally, they had a Win. 1873 44-40 Musket in something like 90% condition. It was stolen. I think down in Albany they had something stolen there a while back in relation to Fort Griffin and Doc Holliday.

I'll send you some JPGs of the Walls if you want. It's an interesting place to visit, especially after researching the history of the area. You do know that the 1874 fight was actually the second battle of Adobe Walls, don't you?

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 15:33:39 (ZULU)


Went to the range yesterday....Sighting in the above Nightforce scope and fire forming 300WM brass.

Now, because I am sighting in the scope and fire forming brass. I decided that I didn't want to waste the good stuff (R22 & 200MK).

I went with Varget and Nosler 150BT's, not knowing what to expect.

Damn did I get a surprise, back to back  5Rd .55" groups at 100yds.

Has anyone used Varget for 300WMag...If so, please let me know your results. I am considering Sierra 175's and Varget...., When I get a chance to try it, I will post the results.


bryan <>
CA, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 15:33:43 (ZULU)

Catman you old obnoxious fart and friend.  I talked with Dick Thomas about that and he said he would love to sell the reticles to USO.  I put the ball in John Williams court and told him he should do it.  If it happens it would be a good thing. If not its not on me.  I only suggest I dont make decisions.

John, glad you got on me about the sling swivels.  I am working on a better way.  I hate the rattle myself.

Making a Mini 14 better and who is best at them.  Well this is the best way to get a Mini to shoot well.  Go to Colt and get a AR15.  take mini and throw in hole.  Now you have a weapon that shoots.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 16:42:44 (ZULU)

Mark; yes I've been right by there but not out to the site. Pix would be appreciated. Yes there was another battle when the Bent Brothers had erected Adobe walls years before If  I remember right? Gosh I've read about that but it's been a bit. I've read Billy Dixon's books and his sister's revision. Retraced some of his references down by Dalhart too. Interesting stuff. And the battle of Palo Duro Canyon. Guess I'm almost a buff! Been into Terry Johnston's books for a while too. I work with some of Quannah's white relatives everyday.

Brian and Torf; best group I ever saw shot was 10 shots at 200 meters with a xp in 7BR. I could not measure a hole deviation just one hole barely ragged. Kick butt caliber'. Great game that International.

Bryan; varget will work in 300 winchester magnum. You must be absolutely sure you set it off good cause there's lots of air in there. Great groups though. Don't even think of not using magnum primers in that case! It will hang fire on kidding!

Lito; you got me on that one! I know I'm gonna remember it when you tell me.

Bill Rogers <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 17:04:10 (ZULU)


Varget is way too fast for the 300WM... use H-4350SC... that's a slower version of Varget, and I'm shooting groups in the 1/4" to 1/3" range in my 300WM.

How come you gotta fireform yo' 300WM... my cases came ready to shoot right from the box ;))



>"Catman you old obnoxious fart and friend."<... WAIT A Damn minute, I ain't an ol... Aw forgetaboutit ;))

I doubt that John will go for it... he suffers the NIH syndrom.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 17:06:32 (ZULU)


The name Adobe Walls was most likely given during the time that Kit Carson was there in 1864. It was the remnants of the Bent brothers attempt at trade with the major tribes there (circa 1850s ?). What the Bents didn't anticipate was that the different tribes didn't get along too well and things got a little 'unhealthy' when more than one tribe was at the trading post.

When Carson was there during the first battle of Adobe Walls, I believe that's all that remained of the trading post at that time was just some 'walls'. I don't think there was all that much left during the second battle. In 1874, the name was given in reference to the old Bent's trading post or what was left of it. The settlement itself actually wasn't right at the Walls but was closeby. In later publications and letters, the buffalo hunters admitted to being rather vague about the origin of Adobe Walls.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 17:44:54 (ZULU)

Mark; it's probably a gimmie but I bet you may have been out to Bents Fort. It's a  Masterpiece of restoration up on the Arkansas river for those who haven't been there.. it's a must visit if you get in SE Colorado. Welcome to History Country folks! And by the way! A Sharps rifle at a distance really does sound like Thunder rolling over the plains.

Nothin like the sound and smell of a 50-120 in the morning.

Lito' who was it???????????????????????????????/I can't stand it?

Bill Rogers <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 20:37:00 (ZULU)

All-right, what the hell is wrong with the world today? I put AFN on on the radio, the news is some missing girl, I turn the Brit Sat TV on, same story diffrent kids, hell it seems every week that some perverted asshole abducts some kids, WTF ? I'm for microchiping kids until they are 16, and following em via satellite so i know where they are if i need to. I picked up a 19year old female hitch hiker today, she looked more like 14/15, i went 15 miles out of my way to make sure she got to where she was going safe. I've got kids and this shit worries me.

Anyhow, back to guns. weighed my 30-06 today, sans scope and bipod, tips the scales at 7 1/4 lbs (with eagle stock pack still on). damn bipod, scope and sling add nearly another 6 lbs, 308 sporter/hogue stock weighed 11 1/4 lbs with non swivel harris  and PMII on it. Tactical 308, AICS, 20"fat heym barrel, SA 80 sling ( no mag, scope, bipod or ammo, weighed and even 13 lbs, that sod must weigh 20lbs with scope on and ready to roll, Some one told me i lost weight today..  it must be from carrying all this gun stuff, I aint as lazy as i thought.. ha damn i forgot to weigh my Marlin.

Slings for AI, we used the same sling as we used for the GPMG's, brass hooks/clips on either end that clipped into those damn rattling hookup points on the stock, its an easy job to stop the stock bits rattling though and we just taped around the hook things to stop them bieng noisy (with black n nasty ( brit for 100 mph tape)

Chris 45/70 at long range.. i'm gonna try my 450 marlin at 300m for a start in September, should be a laugh.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 20:47:36 (ZULU)

Like the Catman sayeth. 4350 makes more sense in the .300 win mag. but the best groups I ever got with one was 69.5 grains varget(MAGNUM PRIMERS CCI don't use the Winchester combo things.) behind a 168 match king. Same hole 200 meters. I fireformed mine too and it cut my groups 1/2" so there! Lito, catsreecher! Nah na na nah nah!

So there's a few hundred missiles out there in that little  Anti Terrorist unit out there at Roswell. Gee Whiz, they (BATF)say it's a registration issue. You mean you have to register your Missiles now?

Catman; fill me in Catman, I picked up a few Minute Men at a flea market the other day... should I fill out a yellow sheet? This is hillarous. Wonder if I could get a deal on a black Helicopter?

NEA urging teachers to not teach blame for 911....

Man kills 13 women he admits too and get 60 years time in trade off for helping with the details to solve the crime.

Nahh Nahh! Don't flame me ... I'm just readin the headlines today!

I Just had to vent to keep from sucking my thumb again!

BRogers <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 21:20:03 (ZULU)

On the AICS - I removed the sling attachments - using the added QD swivels I found them redundant - and annoying.  I know Mikey has a new sling for them - but I think I will stay with the way we came up with originally - no rattle and rock solid - for his sling.

The AI sling is the same as our C9 LMG (M249 for y'all) - noisy and annoying - might be good for carriage but sucks for shooting - Mike's is the best I have found in that respect.

Just my humble opinion

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 21:44:47 (ZULU)


Choo gots mail man,


Rich S.

Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 21:47:02 (ZULU)


Have any of you hawgs used an cooler full of ice to cool down barrels in the summer? I've got 6 riffles that have to be re-zeroed. I don't want to wait til fall, and I don't want to heat them up to bad whilest trying to zero.

Alert over, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 21:54:42 (ZULU)

Pulling bullets with vice grips and cooling barrels with tubs of ice; what kind of barbarians are we dealing with?

CDC' <>
- Monday, August 19, 2002, at 22:33:23 (ZULU)


 Who was that blasphmer using PeteL's handle bad-mouthing the S&Bs?  Seems someone has culminated with the marketing department!  Pete, I wussed out on my "next scope"--and got yet another loopy.  Actually, my wife read the tea-leaves and pre-empted my purchase with a father's day gift!!!

Mini-14s?  I wanted one a while back, but then I went to school with a bunch of range time...and never looked back.  I suppose I would take one for free and toss it in the bed of the truck with the over-sized spare.  They'd make a nice extension for the jack handle...and the 33" mudder would make an acceptable target for it inside of say 50 yards.  As for me, my next service riffle will be an AR15 varient...dollar for dollar that should be a no-brainer!


 I could guess as to who said that...I think I know, but I'm gonna watch the flick once more to be sure.  Question:  Is single stage press the way to go for a beginner with delusions of rolling the perfect boolits?  I will soon have all the time in the world...unless the balloon goes up or DA offers a choice assignment...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
Stevens Point, WI, Ontheroadagain - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 23:14:46 (ZULU)

'yote Bate...

>"who was it???????????????????????????????/I can't stand it?"<

Shame on you... you especially... us old guys gotta remember them classics, cuz the little shits these days won't watch nothing in B&W :((

And... if you bought a minuteman, the dealer should have had you fill out a yellow sheet, and call the ATF for an "instacheck" back ground chack.  Go back and volenteer to fill them out ;))

P.S.... they are OUT of black helicopters, but the desert tan ones with loaded rocket launchers are still being marked down 10%.



>"I put AFN on on the radio, the news is some missing girl, I turn the Brit Sat TV on, same story diffrent kids, hell it seems every week that some perverted asshole abducts some kids, WTF "<

Well... nothing has changed, the same amount of kids are being snatched and raped/killed as ever... just the media has discovered that there is more advertising money in this line of news, than anti-gun babble... it workie for me!!  Don' hurt the missing kids either :))


Rich S...

Choo gots answers ;))



Get a single stage first, and get the best you can afford... you will NEVER out grow it.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, August 19, 2002, at 23:17:36 (ZULU)

I have no idea how fast 44 grains of Varget pushes bullets from my barrels -- I got the data off the roster from Pete.  :)

My rifle tubes are 1-11 and 1-12 twist.

There was an article in Precision Shooting comparing a whole bunch of powder measures, some that are very high-dollar.  It surprised the author that the Lee measure was the cheapest and among the most consistent.

Gav, I think it was the Ozz combat matches.  The fellas said they had a rocking great time.

Mini-14.  You're kidding, right?

Kidnappers and kid-killers would make great bullet terminal effects media.

Joe, I use a Dillon but I do believe I need a good single-stage press as well.  The Dillon's great for quickly changing out calibers, though (I use mine more like a multi-station turret press rather than a progressive when I load for rifle).

The new mil-spec Camelback HAWGs from Eagle are great.  The big filler mouth looks like the one on a plastic GI 5-gallon water can, and is fast for filling up with ice, out of a 5-gallon can, or out of a water buffalo (haven't tried it out of streams yet, as I'm old and decrepit and removed from the woods until hunting season -- damn office work).  The 3 liter capacity is also good for almost a whole Camp Perry day.

Hornady makes a carbide sizing spindle for RCBS dies, so I ordered that to replace the one I bent.  Supposed to be better -- we'll see.

Pete L, Dragon-in-law.  HAHah!

Sinister Dave <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 00:25:06 (ZULU)

It seems that no one knows about spare parts for my McMillan 86...including some of the McMillan's! Does anyone out there have any "good" experiances with fabricating parts? How about modifying existing parts? I guess I should tell you that I'm interested in a bolt stop. As I understand it the McBros will not send me a current issue bolt stop. I feel confident that if I could get in touch with the guy from Harris Gun Works, now out of business, he may have some ideas for me. Does anyone know how to get in touch with this dude? I hear he is making barrels in Phoenix.

Out here


Matt Flaherty <>
Boulder, Co, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 00:58:33 (ZULU)

Not to change the subject but, I was interested in when the next riffle raffle was going to take place. Anyone else?

ghillie6 <>
USofA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 01:01:41 (ZULU)

Lito, sadly, you are exactly right about the missing kids.  Go in your local WalMart and look at the missing kid bulletin board. Scary.

Always been that way.  

Sure is selling papers and coverage now though.  

I'm afraid it ain't gonna quit 'til Christ comes back.

. . . But 'til then, me and the boys are steadily bustin' that ass.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 01:05:02 (ZULU)

Chris...45-70s/Sharps, etc..

  Have a Pedersoli Sharps and it is great..Put a Creedmore sight on the rear to replace the cheap ladder sight it came with and it has worked well to 650 yds.{ as far as I've shot it so far}..There is lots of elevation left to work with..You have to be careful in your hold and cheek/chin weld when shooting at longer ranges as the drop of the stock is sans 1874 and leads you to creep up on the rear sight and it will ding you!!  Good news is it folds forward so it doesn't really hammer you, it just gives you a reminder..

  For my Sharps I load 26.5gr. of XMP5744 behind a 405 cast bullet for about1300fps..For hogs I'd recommend a Guide gun and 455-460gr. LBTs running about 1465-1500fps..My hog gun is a Gunsite modified 444 Marlin running 300gr XTPs on the steamy side..

See the ASC article for a photo of 650yd sharps performance..

outa here

Markwell <>
Bustin' chucks in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 01:37:32 (ZULU)

Bravo, Name sounds familiar.

I got a mount for my M1A today. Dont ask which one. You all will say it's the wrong one. I shot my Salvage 223 today at 500. Groups were not what I expected but cheap scope combined with mirage from heck resulted in only one 1 MOA group. The rest where closer to two MOA's. I tried shooting the 18" gong from the sitting position. I did manage to shoot the chain holding it. That position needs work.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 01:48:05 (ZULU)


Just in from Day 1 at the Academy. Course is going to be interesting.

Run and puke scheduled for Wednesday...

Mini-14's: Our department issues them and I qualified with mine, aceing the course, but it wasn't easy. Sights are marginal and accuracy leaves a lot to be desired. My M1A, on the other hand is doing sub MOA with 168 Sierras...NO BRAINER...

Seven Marines in the class of 23...we is gonna have fun!

The have me sitting next to some little blond cutie who graduated last year. She's 26 and was 1 when I graduated from the same college and was commissioned. Can't help it if I have lustful thoughts...

Doubt my body can cover the check, though...

Looks like I'm the class "OLD FART"...

All for now. Have to run the White Shepherd over some trails before dark.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 02:08:14 (ZULU)

I find myself without an AR15.  The Olympic Arms Alan mentioned for $580 sounds right interesting.  Does anyone have any experience putting many, many rounds through one?  How does it compare with the Bushy for reliability and accuracy?  How is OA to deal with?

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 02:14:35 (ZULU)

Cat Carver,

> UnDude...


>> "Catman you old obnoxious fart and friend."<... WAIT A Damn minute, I ain't an ol... Aw forgetaboutit ;))


> I doubt that John will go for it... he suffers the NIH syndrom.

Which John?  I think we're about to go to JohnL for me, if that makes sense.  Was this about the AICS slingie thingie?  Can't email you, seems to think something about your post is spam.

On younger farts and BW movies, hell I own some of them, and may well have seen that line, but it -was- uttered in a Dirty Harry movie also <heh>



JohnL <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 03:13:43 (ZULU)

Wes, I feel your pain. When I went through the San Antonio PD Academy I was 32, that was a little over 8 yrs ago. It was ruff on me but easier than basic training, since went home at night. The most we ever ran at one strecth was 5 miles. But luckily when we got done with that we only had to do sprints, dozens of them.

CDC, no AR? Thats crazy talk. I was checking out the Rock River site. They sell complete lowers for $350 and complete uppers for $500. They are more money but they are cheaper than Clots (Colts)and DPMS. And better quality judging from the one that I shot. I'm gunna buy a 24" flat top upper soon from them.

Bravo, who shoots gas guns. Sure does ring a bell...  ;)

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 03:32:07 (ZULU)

CDC.....shame on you; no AR!!!!!  IMHO, buy a Colt and be done with it..Have seen the clones crap out far to often to ever think of owning one..Buy Colt mags, feed it good ammo and you'll be a happy camper..My favorite is the 6721 tactical carbine.. not cheap, but they run all the time and shoot well to 300++yds...Put a Aimpoint Comp on it with a 3 min. dot and you'll be surprised how easy it is to hit with at speed..

Woodchuck shooting is in full swing as the high mountain meadows here in the mountains are being mowed off..I love the smell of hay and wide open shooting lanes!!

Have been setting up and shooting chucks nightly for several weeks now but have also been taking my Hornet for an afternoon stroll and "hunting" chucks instead of just "shooting" them..Walking the edges of meadows and fields reinforces ones' field shooting skills, taking shots as they present themselves and, stalking in to get within Hornet range harkens back to the days of ones' youth, when working and waiting for hours for the ideal shot with the .22 was the greatest of hunting adventures..Still have that Marlin 39 and need to get it out again!!!

On the Mini 14....Won one at an Early IPSC match years ago..Shot it for about a week and sent it packing....POS is a compliment to it...

On Ruuuugers though.....The CR in .223 continues to amaze me...Anyone out there care to admit they own one and let me know how yours performs???..Mine shoots honest 1/2-3/4" groups with my bulk, Dillon run, 223 varmint load..For a rifle of this size and weight, with a 16" bbl., I consider this exceptional performance..All I did to it was add a after market trigger...It has replaced my Model 7 as my everyday truck gun...

outa here again

Markwell <>
Bustin' chucks in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 03:35:00 (ZULU)

Lito - Brian, missing kids etc, i figures increased media coverage plays a factor in the increased awareness, but statisticaly, now i got this from a good source, since the opening up of the east - west borders, and the policies(in the UK and also here in Germany, i figure this is true Europe wide) of cutting down on the numbers of inmates in jails and all this care in the community shit for the mentaly unstable, there are a hell of a lot more perverts per square mile than there used to be. In my home town (well the nearest one, cos i'm a country boy) since the housing in the city of so called refugees( yeh right, refugees my as) from the Balkans, Kosovo etc sexualy motivated crime reported has risen by an alarming 60 - 70%. I personaly know a cop (my Mothers sisters boy) who has arrested the same damn Kosovan, 4 times, for assault, burgulary, attempted rape, what happens is, as these bastards have a type of diplomatic immunity, they get shipped back home to be dealt with, great, this SOB obviously has influence where he comes from, because each time he gets sent back there, he turns up again in the UK within a couple of months with a new identity, makes his way back to the same city to continue his pimping and dealing.

Boltster, range I know has a device on the firing line (sort of a wooden box thing) that has a blower on it, you stick your piece in and  it gets blown nice and cool, ha. that sounds good don't it.. its meant for these thin barreled combination guns that are popular with hunters here, but works well with anything.

Joe, dude thas was realy me, I'm still annoyed. Thats damn 4th turret is in the way, it is not compatible to practical mounting (unless you stick the scope in one of those god awful AI alloy 1 piece mount things) its just plain ugly (he ha, like my Dragon in law, hell i think my wife was swapped in the hospital as a baby, she looks nothing like dragonfeatures, i already told her, if she ever begins to look thata way, I'm trading her in, My Dad once told me, if you want to know who you will be sleeping with in 30 years time, take a good look at her mother, hell Dad , I hope not), ok got side tracked there. back to S&B. OK question, If they had produced a 3-12x42 or a 4-16x42 PMII, (with a combined paralax adjustment and reticle illumination in one turret)and an option of 1cm or 1/4"adjustments,priced between $1000 - $1200,  how many of you guys would have considered buying one? ok.. and How many of you guys will consider buying one of these beast with 4 teats things that they came up with?  need I say more?( I would personaly have bought 3 of the variant i suggested)

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 03:52:42 (ZULU)

Gulf War II rehearsal.  This is interesting.

"Millennium Challenge 2002 (MC02) is this nation's premier joint warfighting experiment, bringing together live field forces and computer simulation":

I'd like some more input about AR15 clones.  I'm familiar with the Colt, but I know less about the reliability and accuracy of the others.


CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 04:11:36 (ZULU)


    Go to CSP (Dick Culvers Shooters Page) for a good AR-15 Q&A site.

Nice friendly guys there, some very knowledgeable, some very attached to their predjudices, some unreasonably. Remind you of somewhere else?

Just post your question (about Olympic, etc - there's sure to be feedback.

I don't own an Oly, I have five Colts here, and a John Holliger RRA CMP match rifle coming. I did the Colt thing 'cause I kinda collect them, there are complete specs and details published for every model, they seem to hold their sales and trade-in value better than the rest (nothing like name brand recognition), and for me, the quality has always been at least equal to, if not better than, the rest.

Lots of people have their own favorites, but when I was looking at my first one I took the word of Glen Zediker - "The Great Coltholio" and went with the prancing horse. I'm not sorry! I've checked out several Oly's of different flavors at the club range, And liked every one that I shot. The price of the entry level models is hundreds less than the competition, mil-spec parts, a great barrel, and lifetime warranty all combine to make a terific value! Have fun!

Pete L,

       The ACLU made Reagan let all of the nut-jobs out of the asylums years ago over here. That's why we have all of the homeless and perverts on the streets. 'lito's right, there's really no more of this child kidnapping and related crimes than there has been in the past. It's simply that when the media glomms on a story that sells newspapers or airtime it translates into increased revenue - MONEY!

       My wife used to work for the local newspaper, until the powers that be considered that to be a conflict of interest with her day-job in County Government. She explained how much easier the media can key into any specific story by highliting a key word - like 'gun' - or phrase like - 'kidnapped child', and the computer will highlight all stories in those parameters. Much cheaper, quicker, and easier than having to pay reporters to stand there and read every story coming over tht teletype. This will last for a while, until the next feeding frenzy hits. Remember, it was "Al-Quaida" for a very long time.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 04:53:56 (ZULU)

Missing Kids-This one really gets my goat.  I can understand a lot of the adults killing adults stuff but the just irks the hell out of me.  Here in CA you can have a computer check made of your neighborhood for registered sex offenders.  It is very scary when you see the map of your area with all those little markers around your house to denote a sex offender lives there.  Of course their actual address is not given...we wouldn't want to upset those pukes by letting them know that we know, would we?  I personally have four pukes living within about a half mile of my place.  

Pete L-Ok I don't know who you are or what you did with the real Pete but give him back.  Now stand there clicking your heels together and repeat "there's no place like S&B, There's no place like S&B".  I admit the 1/4 MOA adjustments have my attention.  I'm fairly functional with the old world system of tens from converting our system into metric for my better half (she's been here 18yrs and still doesn't get the American measurments) but I still think better in the correct measurment system =)  I'll get a e-mail to ya shortly =)

It happened again.  I took some of the Federal/LC XM193 5.56 and ran a box over the chrono.  This time I only got a 12fps variance (the first try was only 8fps)  I wonder if the lot has anything to do with it after all it is lot #1.  For some reason this has me interested.

AR15 choices-I had a bad experiance with a stripped Oly lower receiver I used as a build up.  The receiver hadn't been relieved enough to allow the hammer to fall all the way forward, binding up about half way down. I had to take some metal out just in front of the hammer pivot area in the receiver.  I just have never been able to have confidence in them since.  I hear they make some OK barrels and I have been told they have good customer service.

I have several Bushy's and they seem to be OK for the most part and all of them have been reliable.  A gripe I do have (a small one indeed) is they are magazine picky.  They general won't use the Israeli Orlite unless the dust lip is ground off the mag...close but no cigar.  I've also noticed they are a little more picky about feeding from various mag brands than the Colt's.  The rifles seem to work OK for the most part (despite my attempts to destroy them) and I've been very happy with them. They are competative in the $$$ area (including parts) too.  So far the customer service has been acceptable.

Aramlite/Eagle-I have a few of these too and I have had good ones and so so ones.  I feel the QC is a little up and down there.  every one of my .223's needed a new extractor spring in short order and I replaced it with a Colt Commando spring.  I have an AR10T that was a major let down.  Shoots bad, not reliable and the workamnship is horrible.  The customer service was unresponsive too.  $$$wise they compete.

RRA-I just built a service rifle (now I just need to learn how to use it better) and used a lot of the RRA stuff on my old Eagle receiver.  So far everthing I have seen from RRA has been just what they said it was going to be and the customer service was always excellent. I plan to keep using these guys for a while and will recommend them to anybody.  One of the highpower shooters at my range has a RRA rifle and it works great and will shoot the eyes out of a gnat at 10,000 yds (OK, I might be making up that last part but it does shoot very well).

Colt-The horsey is the original...there's a reason the others are copies.  You will not be sorry if you get Colt.  All the clones look real good and most work fine.  Now really take a good look at a clone and a horsey right next to each other.  You'll see a difference with the win going to the Colt.  Buy a Colt if you can.

Ok I've worn out my little fingers and used to much band width I'm going to actually go do some work now.

Joe S.      

Joe S. <>
Dago, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 08:03:42 (ZULU)

Mini 14- bought one cause I live in CA and ARs have that evil pistol grip.  Only active LEs or military can get ARs now.  My mini sucks.  It will sometimes group 3-4 inches but that is not usual.  In fact it is not usual for it to hit paper.  I think it is shredding the bullets a good percentage of the time.  I am probably going to sell it else I'll use it as a paper weight cause shooting it is a waste of good ammo (or even bad ammo).  Wish I saved my money and bought a M-1A Scout.  Maybe Springfield should make a 223 version.  

I thought about rebarreling it and getting a decent trigger and better stock but that would cost over $700.00 and I can't justify that - there are too many items on my buy list that would take priority.  Maybe when I am done buying guns or I have more money than I need I'll customize my Mini 14.  But I will likely move from this State and get an AR sooner than that.

Note - a good friend of mine is a Corrections Officer at Folsom State and he says they use Mini-14s and he liked 'em.  Go figure. The thought did not make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

In general on the Ruger, I think the concept is good and if it were not such a POS the rifle would be a great ranch rifle.  The other positive I can say is that the thing has never jammed or malfunctioned in any way (if you don't count the bullets not flying to the target).  I have about 500 rounds through it.

I plan on getting a Volquartsen .17HMR for plinking and critter control on the ranch.  Which is really why I got the Ruger in the first place.


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 09:59:51 (ZULU)

Anyone have experience w/ IMI match 308 brass in a Rock barrel? 45 gr. Varget w/ a 175 SMK in mine makes the bolt very tite to open. No obvious pressure signs. Case capacity is considerably less than Lapua. Wall thickness at web is greater. Is this the problem?


john <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 10:06:33 (ZULU)

Wow, here's a good reason not to buy crappy parts.  A Hesse lower that committed suicide after 2 rds. (per the author on

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, Cali, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 10:45:55 (ZULU)

I got a bunch of e-mails on the Movie lines... but "No Joy", so I'll have to drink by myself :((

"It's an AK-47, I can tell by the sound of the trigger recoil"<... now which pussie asshole said that line? ;))

It was Billy Zane who plays against Tom Berenger in "Sniper"... when they hear a burst of fire in the jungle, the kid trys to inpress the old Gunny with that line.


Wassamatta youz old guys... in the movie "Run Silent, Run Deep", after they torpedo the Momo Distroyer, there is still a morse code signal, and the radio operator says "What is that, I can't make it out... what is that, I can't make it out"... and Clark Gable realizes that it waasn't the Momo that had been sinking the US subs, it was the hidden Jap Sub... I've watched this one about eleventeen times :)

For youz young puppies that haven't seen this classic with Clark Gable, and Bert Lancaster... rent it NOW... it is one of the very best war films ever made, with none of the crappy romance plots mixed in, that were popular at the time (and even now)... straight submarine poop, with great technical advice, and a great script!!

Plus... it'll give you old diesel sub guys a woodie ;))


Brian Sain...

I remember reading that 1,500 kids a WEEK disappear in the US... most never found.  Is that true?


John L...

It wasn't a reference to you... it was a reference John Williams of USO.



On the ARs, I have 3 Colts (had 4 but sold one to a friend).  They shoot anything, take any magazines, and workie all the time.  You will NOT be disappointed in a Colt!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 10:50:16 (ZULU)


Thanks for the advice re my reloading accident.


Re the Oly ARs.  Check out their web site.  Think you'll find they are still cutting their chambers to match specs.  A no no if you're wanting to shoot mil surp ammo with any kind of reliability.  Also they don't, or didn't, chrome their bores.  I'd spend the extra and go Colt or Bushmaster.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 11:29:21 (ZULU)

John; I've had a bit of trouble with that brass too. Seems like its a little smaller inside. try reducing the powder is about all I'd suggest..

Lito; arghhhh! I knew I'd heard it somewhere. Problem is I've not seen that movie for about 15 years now. Great show though but now.... I have to get even!

" the farther north you go,, the more things eat your horses!"

edit; by the way, why didn't you take that cheap shot I offered and tell me that your didn't have to fire form your 300 mag. cause you got a better barrel than I do? "Just out of pity for me I know!"

Joe, The problem could be, if you have a ranch rifle the twist is too severe. It's 1 in 7. Why they thought a rancher wanted to shoot bullets like that I don't know.  They also tend to brass up something terrible because they are stripping brass off the jackets.  Clean the hell out of. Slow it down or get some sturdier bullets. Better yet have somebody put you on a after market 1 in 9 barrel. The first one I had blew every other jacket and never made it to the berm. I finally figured it out and switched to sturdier bullets. Hornady jackets are OK but don't sue the SX bullets or Sierra cause they are too thin. It will brass up on you a couple of weeks so you can't hit your hat at 100 yards .  The action is reliable as a rule as well as the clips. Put on new sights, a new trigger, a new barrel and a better fitting stock and who knows? I wouldn't try to solve the problem with a Springfield scout but that's just my opinion. Waddaeyeknow?

Brogers < >
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 12:49:02 (ZULU)

I just got back from droppin' Ruggus Rattus off at day camp, and I have been laughing all the way home...

...the last few weeks he's been in a sailing school, and on the way this morning, it was raining hard and I commented that it was a good thing that he didn't have to rig sails and go sailing in the rain, and he says...

"Yeah, and if you sail in the rain, you could catch ammonia too!"... I'm still laughing at that little booger ;))))))))))))))))


OK, 'yote Bate... your mission is to get a 6 pack of your favorite suds, and rent "Run silent, Run Deep", and watch it! ;))

On the >" the farther north you go,, the more things eat your horses!"<... I never heard it, but it's a great line... what movie is it?


If youz guys ever wash your brass (I do), and dry them in the oven at 250 degrees (I don't, I use a hair drier)... don't make the same mistake that one of our Rosterfarians (who shall remain nameless) made.

He put the cases in the oven and dried them at 250, then turned off the oven, and let them cool... and forgot them!

THREE WEEKS LATER, Missy Rosterfarian turned on the oven to pre-heat it to bake somfin'... at 450, and turned the whole friggin bunch a beautiful deep blue :(((

When you dry your brass... take it out of the oven afterwards... but the wife's hair drier does it better.


CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 13:44:47 (ZULU)

eLITO' One more line from the same movie.

"That sound you just heard was your own throat gettin cut!"

Movie was ..

"Missouri Breaks"   Jack Nicholson and Marlon Brando. The horse thieves are being pursued by the fruity bounty hunter (Brando) and are headed for Canada.

I never see this one for rent anywhere but it's a classic.

I thought it was better than "Goin South".

Bill Rogers <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 14:03:17 (ZULU)

Lito:  I don't know about the 1500 stat but I do know a few more that will scare your ass to death. There are many different types of sexual predators of children. The ones that will actually snatch a kid are in the minority. But, there are plenty enough of those to go around. You would be surprised at who is a sex offender and how many you have probably shaken hands with. Maybe even drank a beer with.

Anybody know the AVERAGE number of victims a pedophile has before he is caught for the first time ?  I am talking about your pervert that will photograph kids, fondle kids and more if they are allowed.

A beer for anyone 25 victims close.

Anybody know the profile of that same guy ?

# 1 offender in a sex case of a child ?

Anybody ? Steve, Mikey ?

Probably a few here at SC or that have visited SC.  

You know who you are, you fuckers and you better hope that I (or someone like me) doesn't find out cause I love hunting you bastards down and putting your sick, cowardly asses away.

Romans 13:1-4  (Sniper verse)

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 14:04:06 (ZULU)

CDC check out these folks for your AR needs. Found them at the AR site Allen posted, Best prices I have seen. RRA Varmint upper sells for $460 RRA wants $500 if you buy throught them. If you looking for NM upper it runs 540 from these folks 600 directly from RRA.

Missing kids? How do these folks define missing? We have a bunch of kids reported missin every Friday. They return Sunday. Very few are ever reported here missing with foul play involved. Two in the last four years that I know of. It's just getting its 15 mins of hoopla in the press making it seem like an epodemic.

Mayhem, glad we work out the French food thing. As for beer I like a good Stout but a Pils will do. Bitbuger does nicely.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 14:23:22 (ZULU)

Steve; don't look now but there is an epidemic! I blame the internet for the current increased spread of it but it's an inherient flaw in the species. Been going on for thousands of years but still it's a club now. Very hard to stop due to what Brian's about to tell you I think.

So do we have a situation or what. Anti Sadamn forces take over the Iraqi embassy in (of all places)Germany.  This ought to be interesting.

brogers <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 15:13:53 (ZULU)

CDC - another company with good prices on RRA stuff. .  I have made several purchases from them and been satisfied.

Child Molesters - I cannot even fathom the volume and magnitude of hatred that would be released if someone deliberately hurt my child.  It would be bad.      

Jim Mitchell <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 15:19:01 (ZULU)

OK Brother Sain, here goes.

Average number of victims - 260

Profile - White, upper middle class, educated and religious

#1 Offender - member of childs family

It's a sick fucking world out there Brian, Godspeed on your hunt for them.


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 15:52:02 (ZULU)

'yote Bate...

I saw "Missouri Breaks" a long time ago, but didn't remember that line.  A Great movie... maybe Brando's best.

I'll see if my local BlockBuster has it, or can get it.

(Edit - Nope, it's out of print).


Brian Sain...

Average number of victims... 130?

Typically a middle class or upper class professional, married?

I took the Rug Rat to the cub scouts a few years ago, and met the guy that was the leader... and I looked at him, and the way he looked at my son, and it was real clear... I "Knew" why he was there.  Ruggus Rattus was never a Cub Scout.

This kind of garbage is the lowest of the low disgusting garbage... and the courts have given them a pass for many years.  I remember a priest in Boston was caught in the early 90's, and had 150 "known" victims, and the judge gave him a year probation, cuz "he had suffered enough from the public embarrasment!"... Yeaaaaaah right!  

If someone messed with my kid, I would definitly have a few monents of "temporory insanity", and plea to the court of my innocence and count on mercy (and hope the jury was all parents of little kids!)



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 16:03:22 (ZULU)

'yote Bate,

The case capacity difference is more than 9 grains of water. I backed off in 1.0 gr. increments and tested in the LTR with no problems. I'll re-do the test in the 70 today. The chamber in the LTR is 1.631 (hdspc).

A/P report- ENE wind today. Called for 45 minutes off and on. Nada. Got ready to leave, put the call in my pocket and caught movement to my left. One male adult on a dead run looking for the rabbit, he's 300+ and closin. I shoulder the rifle, look in the scope, here comes his brother, aunt, uncle, and 2 nephews. Jesus, which one do I shoot? While the adrenaline level subsides the lead dog stops at 250 or so and up goes the nose. I'm busted but he don't see me. They are all six standin on the taxi way, lookin right at me. I can't shoot any of 'em because of unknown area behind 'em. They casually strolled off of the west side of the runway like nothin' happened. They are now located and I think I can call 'em in again tomorrow if the wind will hold. You were right, I tried what you said and it worked. Thanks, who woulda thunk??? :))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 16:04:15 (ZULU)


Many years ago, a female prosecutor interviewed my stepdaughter about an incident that occured "next door". The prosecutor said it's very unfortunate, but 5 and 6 yr. olds make unreliable witness'. I asked her about using a doll and she refused. It took me along time to get rid of the urge to vindicate my wifes' child. We moved 1 week later.


PS: do you have high speed access? If so, I'll send you this new M/C commercial. It's outstanding.

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 16:18:29 (ZULU)

Nick, you're right, it is a sick world, but it's also a beautiful world.

For all the years of midnights I worked, I put away some sick people, but I was occasionally rewarded with actually saving a kid, too.

Shooting related : has anyone built up a lightweight stick, Rem model 7 or Win Featherweight based?  Wondering what options I would go with to make a nice, light rifle.  It didn't take long for me carrying an AICS to realize that it was well over 15 lbs. equipped, and that's a lot [for someone who's now out of shape].

I know : get in shape.  But I'd still like a lightweight .308 at some point, and am wondering options.  Would want it to still make the hits on a maiden at 1000 yards KD, no wind [ha].  Barrel, thinking lightweight contour, I am wanting no aapciable vertical stringing for only a few shots, not the usual "however many I feel like" strings.

If this rifle is slow-fired, is there any concensus on barrel life say, vs. a 22" heavyweight bbl?  Thinking 22" bbl still, just a lighter version <heh>

McMillan A3 stock?  My only A3 seems light as can be [w/o the .300 RUM action in it]; I want the accuracy potential, but as light as I can reasonably go.

Not really into titanium [ha!] but want a lightweight carrier, more than a daily shooter.  All input welcome.

John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 16:34:09 (ZULU)

Good stuff on the ARs.  Has anyone had any bad experiences with Bushmasters.  How are they to deal with?  When they screw up, do they make good?

Movie lines:

"He never had a chance."

"I didn't ask him to come here.  If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else."


CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 17:24:07 (ZULU)


The Bushmaster people are very good, very straight, and service is excellent!!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 17:28:19 (ZULU)

John, you're a better man than I.

Kittywhacker, I'm behind you all the way. Temporary insanity might be the best for everyone in such a case.

Nick, I hope you're wrong, but fear you're right. Sicker than I ever guessed.

MedicJim, it would be bad, very bad, in my case too. But folks like you and I don't get picked for juries I'm afraid.

Bri InSain, Happy hunting amigo! Glad you and folks like you are out there, but hopefully, not needed as much as you probably are. Never looked at Romans in that light, just did, kind of fitting 8p

On AR's, I think it's the guy who builds it more than the maker. For makers, I'll second the statement by Sinister. Having a good gunsmith build one is the way I'd go, they know the parts and makers that yield the best products in the end. After all, it's THEIR name on the final product.

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 18:02:21 (ZULU)


I doubt that, I just don't trust juries or our justice system that much anymore. Especially in this bark eatin, bunny-huggin county I'm in. I'd still be havin lunch with "Bubba". There is a difference between right and dead right I guess. I wonder if I could do the same if it was MY son?


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 18:12:45 (ZULU)

John; at least you got a good look. If you can trick em where they have to come in just slightly cross wind where you can shoot, it might work. It works best where theres some cover but straight down wind is wide open. They hate that!

Dan; I like the Bushmaster, I have 2 Olympics and a DMPS. All work but the bushy is the best at everything it does.

brogers <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 18:47:44 (ZULU)

Average number of victims for the guy I described is - 350.

Caught for the first time at average age 34.

Profile:  white male, intelligent, middle aged, professional, no criminal history. i.e. the pillar of the community.  I.E. Most of us here at SC.

Preys on kids with low self esteem and or broken homes. Perfect Suspects:  Scout leaders, preachers, teachers, coaches, C O P S, youth directors, day care workers, anybody that is around kids a lot. In fact they take those jobs for that very reason.

NOT THE GUY ABOVE: #1 offender in MOST Sex cases is biological father. # 2 Step Dad or mom's B-friend. # 3 is an Uncle or cousin. # 4 is family friend and on down the line.

That said, there are all types of sex offenders.  Mix it with a kidnapper or murderer and you've got the makings of a real monster like those that will snatch a little girl off her bike in broad daylight.

ANYBODY can be a sex offender just like ANYTHING can be a bomb.

Ya'll remember '73 ? Dean Corroll and Wayne Henley killed 27 or so young boys in Houston and buried them on the Texas Coast at Sabine Pass ?  Right down the road from here. Sabine Pass is in Port Arthur.

Problem is these guys hurt a lot of kids before they are caught because they know the game and they are smart and the kids they prey on are perfect victims.  Especially the homos.  I mean if you are a kid that has been boinking a 50 year old fat guy for money to take your girl out, buy dope or have clothes as nice as the rich kids, you gonna go tell anybody about it ?  Nah.  They know that shit.

Plus, the first time these guys are caught is not usually the first time they have done it.  But, as far as the courts are concerned, they are first time offenders.  Chances are, you ain't gonna catch him again.  And you guys thought whitetails were elusive.

ROMANS:  For you biblical types. St. Paul was originally a Roman tax collector. Roman by birth and well versed in governmental matters.  In this case he was referring to the government and the Roman court officers. They carried a small dagger or sword in their sashes as a symbol that they had the power of life and death.  He also refers that this power granted them was both by society and by God.

Sounds like a cop to me.

My pastor referred me to that verse a long time ago when I was dealing with the "thou shalt not kill" issue before embarking on my current occupation.

The original commandment in Hebrew states "Thou shall not MURDER".  Big difference.  King James saw fit to change the word.

Didn't mean to get preachy ... Halleleujah brothers !

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 18:55:40 (ZULU)

The death of a piece of crap human is no big deal when you compare it to facing the gaze of a 'wounded' five year old girl that will NEVER be the same.

One of the great horrors Cops, EMS and to a lesser degree, firefighters must face.  I cannot fathom how the cops handle it without killing the scum-bags, they are made of stouter stuff than I.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 18:56:36 (ZULU)

On AR's

Well, I finally got my John Holliger/RRA gun to the range just to break it in.  This thing shoots!!  Four shots touching and one about .5" outside of that.  Yes it was from a bench at 100yds, but I was just breaking it in (which as Mr. Holliger recommends is fire a couple three round groups, cleaning after each.  that's it.).  The Wilson barrel is a joy to clean (I'm used to Remmy tubes), and would be spotless after only 5-6 patches.  I bought the lower from Patrick Stanley (  He's a great guy to deal with and shoots on the USMC reserve team.  He recommended the RRA highly and told me that that's what his team uses (with the exception of a Jewel trigger)I had John Holliger build the upper from a RRA DCM kit.  He also pinned the sights (which at this point in the game I really cannot appreciate, but many recommended that I have it done because he does it best and I will eventually appreciate it), and did his famous job of tuning the already nice RRA two stage trigger. The whole package came to about $1100.  I know Patrick sells the stock RRA DCM rifle for $795.  That's a great price.  The fit and finish on my RRA is fantastic and I am very happy.  I'll try to work up a "formal" review later.

I'd also like to thank Sinister for his input and advice about RRA/Holliger.  I'll be shootin' gun a loooong time before I ever need to even think about upgrading.

If you're thinking of getting a DCM type of AR go with a Holliger built RRA.  

Brian InSain, you got any feedback on your RRA?

Later guys,


Rich S. <>
Baltimore, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 19:19:17 (ZULU)

Rich S. <>
Baltimore, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 19:20:02 (ZULU)

Forgot to add

'Course, now I have to learn how to shoot it and learn the positions and how to use the sling properly...........


Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 19:23:33 (ZULU)

Busy here.  Ain't had time to shoot the RR. Finish is sweet though.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 19:24:15 (ZULU)

Briak (in)Sain

"ROMANS:  For you biblical types. St. Paul was originally a Roman tax collector. Roman by birth and well versed in governmental matters.  In this case he was referring to the government and the Roman court officers. They carried a small dagger or sword in their sashes as a symbol that they had the power of life and death.  He also refers that this power granted them was both by society and by God."

You have your stories a bit mixed up.  Paul, formerly Saul, was a Jewish member of the Sanhedrin (powerful legalistic Jewish sect) before his life-changing trip to Damascus in pursuit of Christians (Acts 9).  He was a Roman citizen (Acts 17:37 and others).

The tax collector was Matthew, also a Jew.  He was appointed by the Romans to collect their tax and anything else he could extort from the Jews.  As to the symbols of office, you may be correct.

Can I get a witness?!


BMG Mike <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 19:45:15 (ZULU)

OK.  My bad.  Sanhedrin, Pharisee, Tax Man - they all sucked pretty much.

Point being, Paul was connected, knew the deal and in not so many words expressed that you don't fuck with the guy with the fuckin' sword cuz he ain't fuckin' playin'.

Guess I better pass on the preaching bit and stick to cop work ...

Reckon God has a sense of humor ?    ...   sure hope so.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 20:32:00 (ZULU)

Jaeger : Not sure if you meant me, or John [who also fancies BMG's :]

If me, I dunno about that.  But I agree on temp. insanity.  Unfortunately, for merely tuning up someone like that, the courts would put a cop in the pen, and the subhuman would get probation, instead of three min security years.  That was one of the things that mostly held me back.

And god has a sense of humor.  We got a guy to confess to hurting a little one [over the phone, mind you] after reading him his rights.  No way to get a car all the way out to his place before he could book, but he was asked to "come in and settle it like a man".  He did, signed a waiver of rights, wrote out a confession, video, etc.  Unbelieveably, the courts actually sentence him to time in the big walls in our state capital.  I get news [appx. 3 months after he reported] that he'd hung himself; they're the lowest, even in the walls.

One of the best days of my career, and yes, my vision of the supreme being is the old testament God (who was not all loving, contrary to what many say; those who've read that thick book know what I mean]


John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 20:59:59 (ZULU)

Q:  "Reckon God has a sense of humor ?"

A:  He must.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 21:05:36 (ZULU)

>>Reckon God has a sense of humor ?    ...   sure hope so<<

Amen Bro. Sain.

Yep, God does have a sense of humor. Found that out 25 years ago when my expectanct wife wakes me up at 0400 and tells me her water just broke. Well, I get her loaded and we head to the hospital 50 miles away (BTW, Jim I asked her if she wanted an ambulance and she tells me, "no, we can make it.")Lesson #1. NEVER listen to a woman in labor.

We get on the road and I have this awful feeling. Awful feeling turns out to be right about 35 miles later. Had to stop and deliver 2nd son @ 0430. Everything turns out okay, we make it to the hospital and after having called everyone to let them know what had happened, I had a moment to myself and happened to gaze at a nearby calendar. It was the first Day of APRIL!!!

That's why I know that God has a sense of humor. Only I wasn't laughing. And now I'm a Paramedic (well almost) and my son, now 25 is a Firefighter. He came into this world in a blaze'ing' hurry and hasn't stopped since ;))

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 21:10:58 (ZULU)

AR-15 choices,


              When I first posted on this subject it was in answer to a question posted by a guy who was inquiring about the Mini-14. It sounded to me like he wanted advice about getting into an entry level .223 semi-automatic rifle. That's when the Oly's at $500 & $580 occured to me. It seems as if the AR is thought of here as the way to go by a large consensus!


               Here's where it starts to get funny. I figured that this guy was looking at the Mini at a discount store like Wallys and attempted to point him in a different direction, one that he could start with a decent platform, and work up to the state of the art on that same platform as his experience and funds allowed him. Or he didn't necessarily need to change a thing on the AR if he was satisfied with it the way it was.

                So now the thread starts going from Kits, to Oly's, DPMS's, Colts, RRA CMP's, to full customs bulit by the likes of Bill Wylde, Frank White, and John Holliger to name just a few. Geez, and I wonder how I went from long-range factory hunting rifles to the PSS, Stealth, LTR, Win. Custom Shop Sharpshooter, to a Terry Cross M40A1.

Guys, it's all your fault and you're doin it again;-))

THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A FLAME ON ANYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN THIS THREAD SO FAR! I know that it's so easy to escalate. Any of you ever built a custom home or engaged in a major remodel? If you have, then you know! The old " if you're going to do this, you might as well do that too", or the "since we're building from scratch, we might as well upgrade the fixtures (or doors & windows, HVAC, plumbing) etc. Pretty soon the objective (and budjet) are lost.

                Anyway, as a dedicated AR shooter and collector, while I sincerely appreciate all of the upscale suggestions and will no doubt make use of many of them, I'd truly like to try and settle the "whats the best entry level all around AR-15? for the money" question. BTW - please don't for a minute think that I'm not enjoying this thread no matter what advice is posted!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 21:12:58 (ZULU)

The best AR15 entry level is a new lower (RRA, Bushy, whatever) and a used upper.

Now with that settled... back to $high dollar$ AR country.

BTW - my "trunk gun" is a 16" SKS with $20 williams peep sight...way nicer than a rugrr, ammo is cheaper and the rifle is under $200.  Mine shoots about 2 MOA at 100 yards with blaster ammo...light, agile, nice!

Jim Mitchell <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 21:30:37 (ZULU)

Brian -

Your point is well taken.  The man wearing the symbol of state power is also empowered to exercise it.  Don't mess with The Man! if you don't want to get hurt.

None of us is cut out to be a preacher.  Sometimes it happens that God puts a man into the role and turns on the hidden preacher machine in him.  Lots of the best preachers today would have sworn that they would never do such, at one time.  Sorta like none of us is cut out to be a hero - till something happens!



BMG Mike <>
- Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 21:41:16 (ZULU)

Brian Sain...

>"the pillar of the community.  I.E. Most of us here at SC."<

HA! Double HA!!  Ask my neighbors... 'specially the Fat Lady ;)

Halleleujah brother.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 22:18:15 (ZULU)


Posted this before, but didn't get any feedback, so here we go again.  Read an article on the new Weatherby TRR a few weeks ago, and liked what I saw.  Has anybody heard anything or seen this new rifle yet?  With a 22" bbl, it would be nice and compact, but it is kind of expensive.  Best part is that Weatherby is more than happy to sell it to non-lawenforcement types without all the problems that we have been going through down here trying to get Remington 700Ps. Would

I be better getting a LTR and working with it or would the Weatherby be worth almost $1200?  Also has anyone dealt with the new Nikon tactical scopes, or are they so new that they are not out yet?  I have saved up about $1800 and am thinking about getting a new rifle and scope combo, but you know the deal, decisions decisions.  Not to mention how hard it has been to keep the money from leaving me before it is time. I may just stick to a Loopy, but I've had some luck with Nikon scopes on my other rifles.  Finally, for Savage owners, Bell and Carlson has come out with some stocks that fit Savages for those who don't like the POS stock it comes with it.  Once again, thanks for your time.


Marc Ingram <>
Hinesville, GA, USA - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 23:10:57 (ZULU)

Marc,  (anyone else notice how many Mark's/Marc's we got now?)

You can have an LTR for about $700.  A Leupold LR M* w/ Gen II Mildot for $802.  A Badger 20MOA base for $120, Badger rings for $134.  That comes up to $1756.  If you then add an Eagle stock pack and shipping, you just spent your $1800.  You couldn't get a set up like this for $1800 with the TSS and the Nikon.  Sorry I can't comment on the TSS.

Pedifiles, Drunk Drivers,  et. al.,

If some sick bastard was to hurt my daughter, no force on this earth would be able to save that ass.  The only thing that would keep that sumbitch alive is if the hand off God decended from heaven and a loud and thunderous voice said, "Chris, I got this one..." It's amazing how little respect people have for one another these days.  (I pray every day these words will never be used against me in court)

Nick G,

If you're reading this man (shouldn't you really be doing sit up's/Push ups/running right now?) good luck Saturday.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 23:55:28 (ZULU)

Reloading gear:

I'm using the Lee Perfect Powder Measure and

Redding Dies with the carbide expander ball.

RCBS spray lube with cases held in Stalwart lube racks.

Wilson gages to verify case headspace.

Most of the above available from Sinclair International.


Had one, sold it and got an AR15.

AR15 more accurate, better aftermarket and spare parts availability,

easier to clean, more scope mounting options.

Rod Regier <>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 00:12:56 (ZULU)


I'm trying to find the best prices on the ITT NOD (Night Enforcer 6015 or the PVS-14) that is weapon mountable.  My agency is pretty tight with the funds and often we need to supply gear on our own.  Any recomendations would be helpful.

Thanks, Steve

Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 00:19:30 (ZULU)


good point about the thread escalation.  Back to basics.  IMHO I think the RRA is now the best AR for the money.  I guess my point was that that's what John Holliger recommends.  He told me that

" ...Nothing special about Bushmaster receivers.  They just have good marketing BS.  Stay away from Oly, DPMS, Armalite, Hesse, ASA and you will be OK.  RRA and Bushmaster are both good quality, nothing to choose between them, but the RRA will be quite a bit more cost effective..."

You can get a brand new RRA DCM rifle for $795.  Considering that that's their top of the line comp gun, other models will sell for significantly less.

You also might want to check out



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 00:22:11 (ZULU)

400yd question

Thanks to all who responded on and off line.

I checked to see that the torque settings on the scope mount were tight,the ring screws were tight,and the floor plate bolts were tight.

All were at proper spec's.

I have a small line level that will sit ontop of the elevation turret and I can check and see if I am canting the rifle. All I need now is the time to get back to the range.

TonyM <>
FL, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 00:56:53 (ZULU)


 My shop project is stalled (cash flow) and I haven't been able to shoot other than here at home, so all my practice has been 25-100 yds.  Not even worth breaking out the .308 other than dry fire.  Been shooting a lot of supported prone with the ARs so I am still having some fun.  The more I shoot prone/iron sights, the more fun it seems to be.

Mini 14:  It's really too bad, I prefer a rifle with sights where they are supposed to be rather than the AR style elevated sight plane.  I really like the way the Mini 14 handles too.  Too bad they don't shoot.  :-(

Dan, I built a perimeter rifle on a new RRA lower.  It is very nice with no machine marks and flawless finish.  My FFL took my word for it as far as quality and became a distributor so he could order direct.  He has been impressed with them.  The only knock on RRA I ever heard was that early flattops were out of spec in the rail dimensions.  They fixed that.  Other than that, every thing I hear is good.  They were behind on some orders though.  Bushy is good stuff, if you do have an issue customer service is superb (ask for Jerrod) and they are also very involved in the civilian shooting community.  To me that counts for something.  I don't think Colt is too keen on supporting civilian events.  Colt also built some rifles with different size pins, and some with that stoopid screw on the upper/lower pivot.  Ick.  Not sure about current production though.  

I will second the recommendation.  It's a great site with a wide variety of people.  But there are a lot of very knowledgable people.  Hint:  stay out of General Discussion if your tolerance is low.  ;-)

Brian:  preach it brother!  ;-)

In the stuck mojo department:

I noticed today that one of the many nice things about shooting a .45 is that you wind up having quite a nice collection of 9mm cleaning brushes!

In the 'Lito dept:

Neighbors cat has been visiting, and also one of their dogs.  The GSD took care of the dog (ran right through the screen door and chased it right to the property line), and the neighbors fixed the issue quickly.  Chipmunks.  They steal all the bird seed from the feeders.  They dig holes all over, are noisy as hell, and are in my basement and foundation.  My basement is wet and I had a mudslide in my basement stairwell thanks to the little bastards.  They are small, fast, and hard to sneak up on.  They also fit in between #7 pellets very nicely, and are hard to catch in the sights of your .22 without anything that's a no-shoot right behind them, such as a big LP tank, water tank, the house, etc.  :-(

One word: Colibri!

Back ta lurkin!

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 01:34:48 (ZULU)

GUYS:  I am ordering an AWP TOMORROW !  Something has to go.

FOR SALE:  Rem LTR.  Floorplate model.  4.5-14 Leupold Tactical 1" tube. Duplex. MK 4 two piece bases and MK 4 rings. 2.5lb. trigger.

FROM THE FACTORY WITH NO FLUTES ! Wasn't even titled an LTR but the wife tossed the box when we moved !@#$%^&*. NOT A CUTOFF !

Less than 50 rds through it.  1/2 minute gun w/Fed GM.  

$ 1400 even.  Gotta buy an S&B or Loopy for the AI.

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 02:10:31 (ZULU)

Geoff M...

Chipmonks... they get permenent sanctuary around here... they make me laugh.

Build a big pile of rocks 20 to 30 feet from the house.  dump a few pounds of seeds IN the pile.  Then run a thin trail of seed from where they are, to the pile... They will move to better quarters.  Then close up the old holes, and pour vinegar or ammonia all over the old holes.  Just put a box of seed on the pile of rocks every week or so, and sit back and watch them goofies.

Or get a (Ugh) CAT :(((



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 03:15:27 (ZULU)

The 5.56 ammo controversy has raged without me so I'm not up to speed.  Of course there is a velocity/barrel length trade off.

Say a guy wanted a defensive AR.  Say this guy wanted significant short range stopping ability and he likes the feel of the 16" Bushmaster flat top.

The question is:  What bullet?  What powder?  What company makes a standard ammo that is optimized for combat in this barrel length?  Are 300 yard hits unreasonable for a guy who works at it?

Another question:  The Bushmaster link in this site's "Hot Links" advertises some tricky looking flip up front and rear AR sights.  Does anyone have any experience with those sights?  Are they repeatable?  Are they durable?  Are they reliable?  Do they stay down and out of the way until they are needed?

There's no need to walk me through the basics of the AR15 or the M15.  I've had three of the former and a dear old Uncle lent me several of the latter.  He even paid for my ammo and let me use his ranges.  What a guy!

Mike M., Rick, Gooch, Dave and you active guys please chime in.  You KNOW this stuff.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 03:38:57 (ZULU)

Rich-I agree on the Wilson barrel in the RRA.  I was happy to find out how easy it cleans up.  I just don't know what to do with all that extra time on the range now.  I guess I could shoot or something =)

CDC-Bushy has shown good customer support to me over the years and I have really used them for parts, supplies and tech info.  The only irk I have is my rifles are a little mag finicky,  but I can't break them so I'm happy.

Alan-I see your point on the entry level AR.  I will always suggest a Colt first...they are a better product then the clones.  RRA is really up and coming and should be given a real consideration  I have yet to see or hear anything negative about them worth a salt and the customer service is great.  Bushy's are good AR's too and have good support.  Like the others guys said stay away from the other brands...nutin but trouble there boy =)        

Mr. Sain-I sure hope God has a sense of humor or I'm gonna have real troubles in the future.  I swear I didn't know that, those, them things were sins.

Marc-I have played with that Weatherby in my buddy's gun shop.  It seems well made, solid and smooth.  I think the fit and finish was better then the Rem's but it was more $$$ too.   As far as shooting goes your guess is as good as mine, I haven't even seen one at the range yet.


Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, Cali, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 03:43:14 (ZULU)

CDC/Dan, on the AR Bullets.  Start with 68, then 69, then 75 then 77 grainers in that order.  The heavier that the rifle will shoot the better the results they are having on bad guys at distance.  Seems like if you want to run a 77 grainer you need a 1x8 or 1-7 twist and 18 or 20" bbl. The 68,69 and 75 will run in a 1x8,1x7 16 or longer no problem.  They are making shots with 77's that make that 62 grain reload shot at 750 yards with the M4 look like nothing.

On Bushmasters, Love them.  Ver good stuff, take care of business and mine always work.

On Wilson bbls, I have had some that scream and some I screamed at. Either all good or all bad.

Mini 14? Cant we just bury it before it stinks further.LOL

Mike Miller <>
CA, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 05:29:32 (ZULU)

Brian S.,

You are amoung an honored few...the quiet hero that goes to work every day...once and a while making a difference...never thanked nor expecting any thanks...over time, all that you do each day adds up.  Some punk you collared never killed next week; some punk who saw the arrest never bought that will never know why or how you've changed lives..but one thing is certain: you and all those like you make a damn difference!  When I salute that flag during retreat each day, I feel pride in my country...a country that you help define for me.  Thanks guy, and my thanks to all who go out every day keeping the streets safe, coming to the aid of the injured, and puttin' it on the line to help those in need.  


 Talk on the roster about psycho bastards hurtin' kids gets the blood boilin'!!!  My nemesis now is disease...and I roll with that punch inasmuch as I want to strike back.  But another human being tormenting my little girls?  Now that's something I can strike back at!  I believe I would have my M5 Aidbag handy--just so I could jack the SOB with some Epi and kill him several times over!  After dealing with this childhood cancer in my baby, I would have some pent up animosity that would make that insanity plea a prosecution initiative!  A day doesn't go by that I don't wish leukemia could be shot, choked, knifed or just pounded with a blunt instrument...let a pervert cross paths with this rage and my creativity will make the tabloids.  

Pete L.,

 Way back there I laughed so hard I spilt me beer!  And yes, I'd buy one of those pete-built S&Bs you described in heartbeat!  Who wouldn't?  

And a general thanks on that last thread:  many questions unasked got answered on too many topics to list.  As I read, took notes and laughed...I thought..."honor."  It's the one common bond of all who contribute here.  No equivocations, just black and white fact or well reasoned opinions.  Whether we are from the UK, Germany, Canada, New Zealand, or the US--the common denominator is your honor.  No fuzzy gray areas or excuses!  Relativism may hold sway, but those with a natural sense of right and wrong will always be needed in this world...thank God (with his sense of humor) for those few with honor!

And I thought it was the techie stuff that addicted me to this site!

(and no, I didn't spill the other five beers)

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
Hudson, WI, YourTax$$$atWork - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 06:01:54 (ZULU)

On sick bastards. I delt personnally with one a few years back. I got the call and arrived on the scene. It was the moms new boyfriend. I decided to contact the Sex Crimes office, no dice they gone for the day. I then tried contacting the Night detectives who come in when the other detective units leave. Wrong they had not come in yet. What to do. Hellonly one thing in my mind. I was real kind and understanding to the Peckerwood. Real calmly advised him of his rights with out reading them. Acted like it was no big deal. I asked him, "hey, this aint no big deal, but have you ever touched any of these girls in a way that.. Other folks may not think was quite right?" Answer, Well, sort of. Before long we were old buds with me being sympothetic talking bad about Child Protective Services and such. We got done and he admitted to messing around with all four gals. Oldest was 13 as I recall. Youngest around 8 yrs. He fodeled them and hand them slap his wealse. I said when I was done. Hey Buddy could you turn around and put your hands behind your back. Or should I just kick your butt and say you resisted. "your arresting me?" Yes you sick F#$&. "But you seemed cool." eight months latter I check on my buddies Master Name File Judicial record after not getting called to court after reciving a Subpoena. Outcome, Guilty, guilty, guilty and guilty. All four counts. I wrote reports for hours to put him a way and it paid off. Dang Good thing I didn't post the long version.

Movie Quote.. "I guess he had it coming."  "Hell, we all got it coming."

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 06:44:07 (ZULU)


>"But you seemed cool."<

You were cool!  Way to go.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 08:34:05 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

>Movie Quote.. "I guess he had it coming."  "Hell, we all got it coming."<

Ohh man,, Clints best movie ever.  "Unforgiven".  That than the quote about killing any man who takes a shot at me, "I'll kill you, your family, and burn down your house"  Great movie...

The 1K shoot on Aug 25th is getting close...  any of youse Hawgs that think you'll make it and haven't already,, drop me a line.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 11:23:40 (ZULU)

Ref: Good w/the Bad

On Tuesday nights there's a real relaxed family type pistol league that shoots at the club.  Andy and I strolled in last night to shoot for grins.  I shot a "possible" (aka perfect) score with my 4" S&W 686 with full house magnum loads.  (Sinister Dave has seen this gun shoot and it's a crowd pleaser.)  I'm taking so many meds I rattle when I walk but I guess there's something in there helping the old "eye-hand" thing.  Let's hope it works at Raton in a couple weeks.


Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 12:32:13 (ZULU)


Question on selling & shipping sticks to out of state. If you sell a firearm to someone out of state (talkin' rifles) Do you have to ship it out from a local FFL dealer, or can you ship it yourself to the buyers FFL?


Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 15:21:35 (ZULU)

Purposely stayed out of this one for awhile.  Worked Detectives four about eight years.  Three was assigned to Sex Crimes which sometimes turned into homicide or vice versa.

Only one cure I could ever see for the bad guys in these cases.  That cure ended with a six foot hole.  Problem is these guys look at kids they way we do babes with boobs and lets face it you could bury me for ten years and babes with boobs would still eb what I wanted. So as long as these screw loose freaks are on the planet they will commit bad assed crimes.  No cure I ever saw.

Steve good job on that case.  Sounds like you were working patrol at the time and most patrol guys will never take the time to do the job right.  Outstanding!.  A few words to think about when you talk to these pukes:

If dealing with kid case get the guys to say it was consentual sex.  Many times these freaks will say of she/he wanted it but would never admit to force.  Once you get the freak to admit to having sexual contact you have won the battle. Kids can not consent.

Same with rape cases. They will say they had sex but no force was used.  Obvious evidence will show the force.

Many times getting the victim to ID is a problem, so just go into interview with getting the suspect to say he knows the victim.  I like the I know this and this but I want your side of the story.  They jump right in and admit to being there but give a different story.  Anyone dumb enough to talk to us will get caught up in lies!

Let the idiots ramble on.  Try and give them a way to explain everything.  Do it on tape.  I once had a guy who was wagging himself in front of 15-20 kids say "I didn't want to constipate my errection so I just took care of it"  

Enough said. I hope this helps some of the other LE guys

Mike Miller <>
CA, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 16:24:32 (ZULU)

Movie quote: "If it bleeds, we can kill it".

Old Ironsights <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 16:47:17 (ZULU)

CDC:  Hard to beat a Bushy.  First decide if you want a chrome lined chamber and bore.  If so, then Bushmaster will be your choice.  There are so many configurations, you will have to decide what task you want it to accomplish.  Mine is a 16" Flattop and replaced the dreaded Mini 14.  For loads of info on sights, mounts, etc. is well worth your time.

Jerry <>
Red Rever Valley Black Dirt Country, MN, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 17:01:35 (ZULU)


 Each one of these stories represents one less sicko wandering around my neighborhood.  

 As a father of two girls, each arrest makes the odds a bit better for my little ones to have a safe, secure childhood.

 How can I ever put a price on this kind of security?  Some stranger in a blue uniform intervenes and someone's kid will never know trauma.  Now I sit back and watch munincipalities trim budgets.  First thing they do is freeze hiring and salaries of the Police and Fire Departments.  When you research the programs that remain funded in these budgets, it makes you do these local hacks get away with some of this crap?

 A very wise Junior High teacher once told me: "Your rights end at the tip of your nose and citizenship is a heavy burden that demands an honest effort."  He also said, "Society has no problem that a general war cannot solve..."  He is a Marine through and through...and I never forgot his words...even though at the time I didn't truly understand the meaning.  He was an honorable man who knew how to teach values.  Things like this give me hope in the face of the idiocy rampant in the news!  

No matter how bad it seems, look hard for what is right and good.  In spite of the media reports, we still are in pretty good shape!

Joe M

Joe Mahon <>
Hudson, WI, Per Diem! - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 17:05:25 (ZULU)

Old Ironsights,

Believe that was Arnold in Predator.  Right or wrong?  

Easy one here:

"Oh no you did not shoot that green shit at me!"


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 17:22:52 (ZULU)

Updates on the case of the Remington 700 Detachable Bolt Incident:

From my buddy to Remington:

Customer (Gordon Howie) - 08/17/2002 09:10 PM

Is it normal for the bolt handle to fall off of

the bolt on a brand new Model 700 .338 Win Mag after

firing 15 rounds?  This just happened to me on

Thursday evening (August 15th).  I am pretty

nervous/angry because I have a Kenai Penninsula

caribou hunt coming up in two weeks.  I would like

your suggestion as to what I should do.  They way

I see it, I have two options that will keep me as

your customer and one option that won't:

1) order a new bolt (may have the same problem,

but this time in the field)

2) send in the bolt and rifle for repair (may not

get it back in time to fire before my hunt)

3) take it back for a refund and buy a Winchester

Model 70

My confindence in Remington is shaken, especially

since this is the first Remington rifle I have

purchased.  What do you recommend?  If you need

digital photos, I can send them.


Gordon C. Howie

From Remington to Gord:

Recently you requested personal assistance from

our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your

request and our response.

We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not

hear from you within 48 hours. Thank you for allowing

us to be of service to you.

Response (JESSICA) - 08/21/2002 08:46 AM

Dear Gordon,

We regret that you are experiencing problems with

your firearm. Based on the information you have

provided, we suggest that you send your firearm to

our Ilion, NY facility.  Unfortunately, the bolt


restricted so the firearm does have to come into


factory and we can not guarantee that the firearm

would be returned within two weeks.

My buddy's email to me:

Can you believe this crap?  This is exactly the

response I was expecting.  They can go to hell.  

After work tonight I think I

will go buy a Winchester Model 70.  When the

Remingcrap comes back, I will take it right back to

Walmart for a refund.

Nice.  I've been a lifelong buyer and supporter of Big Green, but after this I don't really have a warm fuzzy.  I think I'll be modifying my own rifle so the bolt handle doesn't come flying off when I least need it to.

Thanks for all the comments guys!


Larry Wollner <>
Hudson, WI, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 17:26:37 (ZULU)

Predator is correct.

Old Ironsights <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 17:31:15 (ZULU)

Larry and others,

For bolt handle mods check out my smith, Jeff Hicks, site at He is now doing a mod where he drills and taps the handle to the bolt with some small screws. Here's the link at Sniper's Paradise where he explains it;f=2;t=000599 Just click on my name for a direct link. It's an excellent mod and the bolt shown is off my rifle. It's well worth the cost of the mod which is around $40

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 17:40:28 (ZULU)


 Now this is weird:  I'm here in the Hudson Army Recruiting Station.  Two little girls are playing in the rain in a parking lot of a liquor store, recruiting station, gas station, etc.  High volume traffic area.  I thought this is odd.  My Station Commander tells me this is an every day thing for a week--AND:

Two nights ago, he was leaving work.  A middle aged man (reddish blond hair)in a Blue Miata was talking to the littlest girl as he approached in uniform.  The man had a puppy with him--had a dark, secluded area, and had a nearby highway.  Said man saw the uniform and sped off, leaving skids at the corner!  This station commander contacted the police (partial plate--Minnie tag -757) and also talked to the parents.  These kids are still out here tooling around!  What is wrong with these people?!!!  Some folks ought not have kids at all!  

The cops can only do so much...parents have to get involved!  Instead, we have three NCOs on high alert watching over some strangers kids in a parking lot!   THIS IS WHY PREDATORS HAVE OPPORTUNITY!  

Joe M

Joe Mahon <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 17:53:46 (ZULU)

>>Easy one here: "Oh no you did not shoot that green shit at me!"<<

Answer: Will Smith in "Independence Day."

Movie Quote. Who said it? "Who are you and why are you so stupid?"

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 18:01:11 (ZULU)


It's hard to understand how some parents can be so dumb.  

My wife or I can tell you within 10 feet where our little girl is.  But I've seen other parents (even some of our neighbors) who let their kids wander wherever and couldn't care less.

Just look at it his way, those 2 little girls have 3 guardian angels in green looking after them.


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 18:27:25 (ZULU)

And on the subject of child predators this just in from Fox News:

"David Westerfield has been found

guilty of murder in the kidnapping and

slaying of Danielle Van Dam, the 7-year-old

San Diego girl who was abducted from her bedroom last February."

The jury is now weighing the death penalty.. let's hope they do the right thing.

I'll volunteer for the firing squad.. and I'll make sure my first shot comes in low.


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 18:32:37 (ZULU)

>>>"David Westerfield has been found guilty of murder in the kidnapping and slaying of Danielle Van Dam, the 7-year-old San Diego girl who was abducted from her bedroom last February."<<<

Let's see how the liberals explain this away and why this POS needs to live and why he doesn't deserve the death penalty.

We've just found out that a mass murderer here in Texas will be eligible for parol in a few years because of a new law turning inmates out that have plenty of positive 'good behavior' credits built up. The guy so much as said he would kill again if released. They're really not sure how many women this guy has killed all across the country.

My question is, "why are these people still living?" Don't bother answering. I already know the "legalistic" answer and I'm VERY pissed.  

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 19:20:01 (ZULU)

The destruction of child hurters is not murder or even killing, it is vermin control,every citizens civic duty.After due process of course,that would be on the courthouse steps.Children are our greatest asset and gift from God and should be viewed as such.

Bolt handles comin off,get a savage, they are bolted on properly :)

Movie line,"He aint all there is he"

Nother one,"YOU werent lookin down the barrels of his shotgun"



Gavan Willis <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 20:30:58 (ZULU)

Mark W...

Good behavior credits... I know how they work.  The little shit wakes up, and gets two days "Good time" credit... has breakfast, and doesn't drop the tray... one day credit... returns all the silverware, and doesn't make knives out of them, 5 days credit, doesn't get into a fight in the TV room, 7 days credit... brushes his teeth before going to bed... 3 days credit.

There, in one day, he has gotten 18 days off his sentence... see, it's that "Kinder, gentlier" kind of jail system.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 20:36:17 (ZULU)


The shipper of a long gun can ship to an out of state FFL without going through a local FFL.  I have recent experience at this, bought a ruuuuger 77/22M at auction on gunbroker.  The individual seller shipped directly to my dealer after my dealer sent a signed copy of his FFL.


"Barbarians"  No way.  You never heard of a FEMM? :-)


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 21:38:16 (ZULU)

Re: AR Country Bushmasters are highly sought after in the High Power Circles I frequent.  Last year in fact I traded a post ban bushmaster for a pre ban Armalite.  The reason given by the nationally recognized shooter I traded with was that the Bushmaster receiver would work better with the custom trigger he was using.  I have owned Colts, Bushmasters and Armalites all functioned for their intended purpose.  I have a DMC legal Bushmaster match rifle with approximately 900 rounds down range without a hitch.

Three problems with the Colts are: the large hole takedown (screw) where everyone uses small diameter pins, the trigger (cutout) that blocks the use of some target triggers and the cost.  You can buy a stripped lower receiver from Bushmaster or Armalite for half of the price of the Colt.  I believe the newer version now use small pins but there are a lot of older rifles with screws.

Anybody actually have an AR clone fail?  Please give examples that you have witnessed. Not I got brand X so everything is a POS but real life examples.

Just my two cents.


Jerry M <>
Baltimore, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 22:19:13 (ZULU)

Larry, on the bolt breaking. It never should have but everything breaks.  Remington can not send another bolt because it needs to be head spaced to the chamber.  No two are exactly the same. I think they should be able to handle the two week turn around.  You over night to them and they fix in an hour then over night to you. NO excuse for that.  Call and talk to someone dont go with the email crap.  Too easy to hit send when no bad mood guy is on the other side talking fix it right now. Just keep asking for supervisors until you get the one who will listen.

Winchester,Savage I dont care who will all give go away answers unless you stay on them and all of them reak.

Hope this helps.


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 22:43:30 (ZULU)

Be VERY CAREFUL about sending tuned rifles to Remington factory service - and probably anyone else's.  If you have adjusted the trigger, or any other custom work on the rifle - it will come back with a factory standard trigger, probably not the one you sent with the rifle.

I have a friend who sent them a rifle which had a GemTech Bi-lock suppressor mount on the end of the barrel, and a custom trigger.  It needed some feed ramp work.  It came back with a new barrel, the hacksawed end of the old barrel and the Bi-Lock loose in the package, and a new factory trigger. And the feed ramp still did not work.


They might be able to fix your bolt without screwing anything up if you just send the bolt.  One never knows.


BMG Mike <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 22:50:48 (ZULU)

Kush: "Do you have to ship it out from a local FFL dealer, or can you ship it yourself to the buyers FFL?"

Federal law permits an unlicensed person to ship to a FFL, directly.  It is in their Q&A material.  Question B9:

Get a copy of the FFL and ship only to the address on the FFL.  State law may be more restrictive and require that you use a dealer to ship it.


BMG Mike <>
- Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 23:20:08 (ZULU)

Sexual predators:

A bullet....A ditch...and a decide which order!!!!

There was a local Jr. high teacher that was on the little league board of directors with me.  You never would have guessed he was a molester.  A real cool customer.  After the case broke wide open and it made its way to the local news, I was surprised by how many kids that I've coached came and said yeah we knew.  Hell this guy even coached my kids in football.  We send our kids to school to learn reading, writing and arithmatic.  Maybe we should stress better communication skills in speaking to adults as well.  One can only hope.  

daniel flores <>
sal, ca, usa - Wednesday, August 21, 2002, at 23:56:55 (ZULU)

re: 5.56 ammo

IMHO, loadings utilizing the Winchester 64g PSP projectile

are one of the best compromises between expansion and penetration

at an affordable cost.  Unlike any of the FMJ loadings,

it is no where near  as velocity-sensitive, but not so light as to present an under-penetration issue.

Martin Fackler "likes" the projectile,

and a version is in-use by CHP.  It is available as a bulk component,

as well as a factory loading from Winchester.  It doesn't seem to be as accurate as some of the match bullets, but it's ok.

Winchester characterizes its factory 64g PSP loading as suitable for deer, for whatever that's worth.

It's only real competition would be 53g Barnes or the 55g Trophy-Bonded, but both of those projectiles are very pricy to practice with.

Federal makes an LEO-only loading using the 55g Trophy-Bonded,

so if someone else is paying your ammo budget, that's a product to consider.  

Rodman S. Regier <>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 00:07:05 (ZULU)

>>The jury (in the David Westerfield case) is now weighing the death penalty.. let's hope they do the right thing.

I'll volunteer for the firing squad.. and I'll make sure my first shot comes in low.

Nick Anzano <<

It doesn't matter whether Westerfield gets life or death.  He'll spend the rest of his life on death row anyway.  Do you know how many people are on Californicate's death row?  Lots.  When was the last time anybody in CA got zapped by the state?


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 00:16:08 (ZULU)

Anybody with problems at Remington call GREG FOSTER.  That's the LE rep.  Tell him I sent you.  I sent him a stack of bitches a while back from cops and friends and he promised he'd try and see that QC calls were better handled.  Guess we'll see.  

Tell him you are a long distance competitor and are getting the run around.

He's gonna hate me.  If he doesn't already.  

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 00:40:27 (ZULU)

Larry... don't send it to Remington... send it a reptutable smith, like George Gardner.

If you send it to Remington, and you have adjusted the trigger (or just broke the seals), they will replace it with a new one, AND CHARGE YOU FOR IT ($160-ish)... even if you set it back to the orignal setting.

Any other changes, they will remove, and charge you for the replacement parts.



>"Do you know how many people are on Californicate's death row? "<

Yeah... about 600, and the number keeps getting larger, cuz they ain't snuffin' ANY of them.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 00:48:33 (ZULU)

When I sent my Stealth back to Winchester I had already brought the trigger down to as light as I could get it. (maybe 4 lbs)  They didn't touch it.... Fixed everything I asked about and sent the test targets back with the rifle.  It took about 20 phone calls, but they came through and I would recommend the rifle and the company.  The best $651 I ever spent.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 01:53:24 (ZULU)


Movie line "he aint all there is he"  Slingblade?

TonyM <>
FL, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 02:05:44 (ZULU)

Thanks guys!  I copied all your posts and sent them to my very irked buddy.  Hopefully he'll take your advice.  I know he won't take mine after I was the one that talked up the 700.  This is kind of a goofy question, but I can't help but wonder if some companies send products that they know are right on the borderline of being rejected by QA to the big discount stores like Walmart.  Or maybe I shouldn't have watched Conspiracy Theory last night.  Anyway, thanks again, you guys are the tops!  Last bit of wasted bandwidth, I had the honor of talking to Joe Mahon today for a bit via phone.  Joe, it was great to talk to you and I look forward to meeting you.  And I was serious about the offer to help clear brush if you want the help.



Larry Wollner <>
Hudson, WI, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 02:16:33 (ZULU)

Movie Quote::::

  "Here, better to have this and not need it than it is to need it and not have it."

Took the Hornet for a walk again this Afternoon..Got a couple of chucks and missed a few..Hunting them,and shooting from field positions, is way more fun than just setting up and shooting them.  Both methods are fun, but, they serve different functions from the training standpoint. Mixing it up a bit keeps one sharp on both ends of the scale, I believe.  

On AR15s

  I have shot IPSC, and more recently IDPA, at the Fort Harmar rifle club in Marrietta ,Ohio for more than 25 years..Often the club has had rifle side matches in conjunction with the pistol events, as well as purely rifle events..I have shot SOF a few times and the NC tactical 3 gun event several times over the years..I have no High power experience, but have seen a goodly number of ARs in action in both competition and training over a pretty long period of time...In My Experience, the Colts have always out performed the clones, and especially the parts guns, of which there seem to be a blue million.

 The argument that a AR built from parts, or some of the clones, needs to be tuned by one of the AR specialists out there to be functionally reliable and accurate, flies in the face of the  consensus of opinion we seem to have had during last winters 1911 debate, which as I recall, was that handguns should be reliable and accurate right out of the box..Should not we apply the same standard to our primary weapons??  No flamin', just a thought...

CDC..Look in your summer special and then think of a Brand name for your AR...

outa here

Markwell <>
Bustin' chucks in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 02:48:26 (ZULU)

G.W. That line is easy for me. Young Guns, they were talking about Dirty Steve. You see the size of that chicken.

Ok, I hate to ask. I am thinking of getting a Springfield scope, the second gen one. I have two Loopie LR M3's and want something a bit easier on the wallet. I found them for $469 from Midway. I will check the Emporium prior to paying the cash. But I just want good input, on folks that have owned them. What they liked or disliked and any problems. If problems occured how was the customer service.

Line: "One thing I can't stand is a sassy bartender."

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Anto, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 03:42:03 (ZULU)

Markwell, glad you asked CDC about what's in his summer special, Glock doesn't make AR's. They make things that work out of the box (GRIN).

faulty Remingtons eh? Glad I've always favored Winchesters.

Brian, if he doesn't hate you already? After posting that, he's going to be eating fishing line and tums all day and thinking of you.

Gavan, you're entirely correct. In a rational society, that's how they'd be treated. No common sense.

Since we're talking sex crimes and movie lines how about this way-too-easy one.


"rape, murder, arson and rape."

"you said rape twice"

"I like rape"

Kevin way to go on the possible. BTDT, but not enough to get an inflated ego yet LOL

Steve in the red dress -red dress- completely cool. Use their lower intelligence against them. Bless you for a job very well done.

Jaeger <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 03:55:29 (ZULU)


         Like you said on the AR's from parts issue. Not that there's anything wrong with building one by choosing "one part from column A, one from column B" etc., but extreme care must be used both in the choosing and in the assembly.

         When you're buying a bare component to be used in building a rifle you must check all dimensions for proper size, check and maybe chamfer and ream to size every hole, and make sure that all of your individual parts and pieces are actually intended to work together by their mfg's. Some makers don't even offer bare uppers or lowers for these reasons. Even everything sworn to be 'mil-spec' is not going to fall together without some checking and fitting.

         One good way to look at this for you car guys that turn your own wrenches is this: You want to build-up your own engine for a specific purpose. So you buy a new engine block from the hi-perf division of your favorite car maker. You won't check the cylinders for concentricity, ovality, and taper? You wont check the crank saddles for straightness? You deciede that your putting in pistons from Co.A and rods from Co.B, a crank from Co. C, with bearings from D and piston rings from E. And you're not going to check, measure, and fit every single piece of this short block assy. before you install it and fire it up?

          I'm sure that you've picked up what I'm trying to get at. I truly belive that if you buy only quality AR parts, have the proper tools, skill, and knowledge to make a rifle out of them, you'll wind up with  something that you'll be proud of. But if you think like the guy with the engine above, you should go to one of the known masters of this weapon, just like Mr. engine guy needs to run, not walk, to someone who's expert in doing what he needs.

           Doing this in either case will substantially increase the cost of the finished product, but you won't be heard yelling " that @#*&$%^ lower" it didnt fit worth a s**t. Or the same about the spun bearings on your new crank! After five Colts I've accumulated the correct tools and enough knowledge to perform most of my AR work, but my new Service Rifle will be coming from John Holliger.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 04:16:51 (ZULU)

Steve Dickerson,

Just emailed you info on the Springfield scopes.

jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 04:48:09 (ZULU)

>>Line: "One thing I can't stand is a sassy bartender."<<

Augustus McCrae (Robert Duvall) in "Lonesome Dove."

>> "Here, better to have this and not need it than it is to need it and not have it."<<

Woodrow F. Call (Tommy Lee Jones) to Newt (Ricky Shroeder) prior to going into Mexico to steal horses and cattle. Also in, "Lonesome Dove."

Now, you dudeskies haven't answered mine yet. Once again:

Movie Quote: "Who are you and why are you so stupid?"

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 05:04:30 (ZULU)

Jaeger Meister, Blazing Saddles..  And I see buy the dress comment Lito can not keep a secret ;)

JC, Got it thanks.

Mark W., Your good. I was gunna post. "I'd rather be haung by my friends than a bunch of damn strangers." But you would have got it too. Your line, I think comes from a movie about two guys sent from New Orleans to Chicago or NY to collect debts or bodies for a gangster. Can not think of the name of it right now.

Mike, Yes I was and still am a Patrolman. My wife wants me to test but I don't feel the need or desire to promote. Out of my cadet class Im doing great just keeping my job. Out of 54 guys we has three promoted and five fired. One poor sap graduated law school and is an Assistant DA from my class. We know he will one day be in private practice and will be one of them. So we just don't talk about him. Another reason I haven't tested is if I decide to go to the range and instruct they wont take me as a Detective but if I promote while there they wont transfer me out.

Dirty Steve, Out. (Now where did I put my red pumps?)

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 06:10:43 (ZULU)

>>I think comes from a movie about two guys sent from New Orleans to Chicago or NY to collect debts or bodies for a gangster. Can not think of the name of it right now.<<

Nope. Statement was made by Earl Bassett (Fred Ward) to some kid who wanted to go "Graboid" hunting in Mexico in "Tremors 2." It's one of my grandsons favorite flicks and we've already wathched into the ground. His favorite character is Burt because he's got all the neat hardware; deuce and a half truck, high explosives, 50 BMG... you know, the good stuff ;))

BTW, my grandson is 2 yrs. and 9 mo. When he's not here, he watches Tremors 3 at his Dad's house. His Dad is tired of watching it. I guess we need to swap tapes ;))

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 12:33:27 (ZULU)

Mark W.

"Who are you and why are you so stupid?"

I was gonna say that is from Pres. George Bush to all the Gitmo detainees but that isn't in a movie yet. ;)


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 13:22:11 (ZULU)

Hey Brian,

You ever talk to Angela at Remington LE.

What a voice huh?  Did a great job for us on an LTR problem.  No BS.

One thing about Remington.  Don't settle for voice mail or e-mail.  Make sure you talk to SOMEONE and stay with it.  They will make it right.

Did you ever get your AR built?

Richard Johnson <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 13:22:31 (ZULU)

"Who are you and why are you so stupid?"

I was gonna say that is from Pres. George Bush to all the Gitmo detainees but that isn't in a movie yet. ;)


That DEFINITELY is a better place for that statement. That was good Nick, that was REAL good. LOL.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 13:34:08 (ZULU)

Mark, let's see I'm not real good at things like this but wasn't

"who are you and why are you so stupid" from US Marshall's? Haven't seen the movie in a while but seems right??


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 14:57:43 (ZULU)

Gotta watch them sexy voices.  They usually belong to a chick with her own area code (i.e. fat).

Got the RRA AR built.  Tight fit between the upper and lower. Trigger is the best I have ever felt on an AR.  Gonna get a stock one for this M4 and relegate the light one to a match gun.  It's a two stager but still too damn light (1.5 - 2 lbs.) for me to be running around playing SWAT man with the entry boys.  I'd hate for it to bump something other than my finger and have an oh shit.  Baaaaaaaadd thing dudeskies, bad thing.

Movie lines:

"I hate rudeness in a man.  Won't tolerate it"

"We have something in this country we call justice" - "Well, Mr. Carpetbagger, we have something in these parts we call a Missouri boat ride"

"I'm a real cop, that's a real badge and this is a real fucking gun"  

Remember grasshoppers, oops and miss are four letter words.

I gotta meet some of you guys some day.

brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 15:36:34 (ZULU)

I hate rudeness in a man and won't tolerate it!

Kate Hepburn to John Wayne

Rooster Cogburn. Was it True Grit?

Crap I can't remember Movie names.

bill rogers <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 17:09:51 (ZULU)

"I'm a real cop, that's a real badge and this is a real fucking gun" Mel Gibson Lethal weapon 1 I think.

Sexy phone voices usually belong to chicks that are sooo fat, the back of their necks look like a package of hotdogs......

Daniel Flores <>
sal, ca, usa - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 17:45:42 (ZULU)

Movie lines:

"I hate rudeness in a man.  Won't tolerate it"

Statement was made by Capt. Woodrow F. Call to a Cavalry C.O. after beating the Army Scout to about an inch of his life. The Scout was trying to bully his way with some of the younger cow punchers and confiscate their horses. Woodrow Call saw what was happening and rode his horse at a gallop and knocked the Scout and horse to the ground and then proceeded to beat the sh*t out of him...and then some ;))Augustus McCrae had to lasso Woodrow (while Gus is on his horse) and pull him away from the Scout before he killed him. That was a pretty good example of a "blind rage."

Woodrow then calmly explains to everyone around that he won't tolerate rudeness in a man while the Scout's on the ground squirting blood everywhere. The C.O. tells his men to pick up what was left of the Scout.

Lonesome Dove... loved it. Apparently lots of others on this list did too. Lots of good quotes came out of that series. How about this one?

Gus to Jake Spoon after Jake asks for a dollar..."kind of early in the morning to be wiggling your bean, isn't it?"

What kind of a chance would a child molester get back then.... if caught? Maybe.....GET A ROPE!?

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 18:11:06 (ZULU)

>>"We have something in this country we call justice" - "Well, Mr. Carpetbagger, we have something in these parts we call a Missouri boat ride"<<

Ah yes. Non other than "Josey Wales" (Clint Eastwood) Wales makes a LR shot with a scoped Sharps rifle, breaks the rope hauling the "Red Legs" across the river and sends the whole lot on a "Missouri boat ride."

Hey Lito... you enjoying this? You started this you know ;)) Apparently, we all pretty much watch the same things or close to it.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 18:21:36 (ZULU)

Who cares what she looks like.  Alimony gets in the way of gun $$$$$ anyway......

But if your Remy won't run, let me call for you!!

Us country boys got to do something to stay awake, and if it ain't braying it's a good day.

Richard Johnson <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 18:59:39 (ZULU)

OK movie buffs, where did this quote come from

"Listen, I don't mean to be a sore loser, but ah, when it's done, if I'm dead, kill him."



drmarc <>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 19:55:10 (ZULU)

"Listen, I don't mean to be a sore loser, but ah, when it's done, if I'm dead, kill him."

Paul Newman- "Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid"

I can't stay out of that one.

Thought I'd lay low to see if the Virus Geeks would slack up...Nope.

If I'm gonna get crap anyway, I might as well play too.


VIRGINIA, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 20:14:17 (ZULU)

movie line: "round up the usual suspects." Probably too easy but with all the LE here someone needed to post it just for old time sakes.

LE qusetion:: I was mowing the edges of the hayfield today.Keeps the place neat and opens up some shooting lane for the up coming bow season, which by the way is no longer allowed in this town because the new pinko liberal, tree hugging,bunny luvin police chief thinks bow and arrows are way to dangerous for the general public.(hates guns and hunters also).

Anyways,at the end of the field in some very heavy brambles are three large lush pots of pot. Been weeded and watered all season. Almost ready to harvest. I mowed all around them but did not mow them off.

Should I ignore them (they're not on my property) or should I report it to the chief who will come to see them, ignore the pot and see my shooting lanes and tree stand. Daddy always said to do the right thing.

Stan Caniglia <>
ohio, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 20:26:05 (ZULU)

Damn Todd, I thought that would be a difficult one, good call.

Here's one  1." Kill every officer in sight"..... 2."Ours or theirs"


drmarc <>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 20:31:12 (ZULU)


Hey, he doesn't help you do your job, does he?

If they want to be that dumb about things, let him find them himself.

Just my .02.


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 20:56:16 (ZULU)

Movie Quote:

"Nothing like a good piece of hickory"

I suspect my rifle should be back from George Gardner by the middle of next week. New AI, 25", #7, 1/12 twist, barrel- bolt and action completly squared and trued- Badger barrel lug... blah blah...

I'm going nuts! I can't wait. MuSt...ShOoT..mY....rIfLe- CaN't..WaIt......AnYmOrE- CaN'T...fEeL..mY.....TrIgGeR-fInGeR-


todd <>
Virginia, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 21:01:14 (ZULU)

Stan, - call him or wire the field :)

quote - Casablanca?

One of these day the African money scams will figure out hey - I am in the Army I make no money!

5.56mm loadings I followed Sinister's advice from a while back and have ben shooting the 77gr SMK - even out of a 14.5 M4 it works while well (starts to drop like a rock past 400m - but still will hit well at 500m).  And it seems to have good terminal effects too. GKR and Co. seems to think that the 100gr 5.56mm is the up and comer but as of today BlackHills is not doing any sale other than MIL.  Midway was selling some 100gr SpirePoint bullets but I think they are out.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 21:07:39 (ZULU)


>>Movie Quote:

"Nothing like a good piece of hickory"<<

Pale Rider with Clint Eastwood playing the Preacher.


I don't know that you're going to be able to ignore it now that you've been in the area mowing. Whoever owns that pot plot is going to realize that real soon and know that someone's been there.

Also, if you've been mowing that close, that of course is going to highlight the presence of the pot and it may disappear overnight.. or.. be abandoned and the situation may fix itself.

The presence of your stand is going to make you suspect too, if the pot is found by somebody else. You sure don't want to implicate yourself.

Ultimately, the DEA is the final authority in these matters anyway. You might bypass your local authority and turn it in to the (DEA) guys and that'll really piss off your Police Chief. You sure don't want to find yourself having to deal with the dark side of this situation either.

Looks to me like this is a county rather than city matter anyway. Don't you have a Sheriff's Dept. there in your county?

I'm not LE, so I'll pass this one to some of the other guys here that's been there, done that.

Good Luck.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 21:10:22 (ZULU)

Stan; don't inhale! Don't worry they won't be there long. The "gardener" will return shortly.

Reminds me of a buddy of mine that found an illegal Elk Kill and reported it. They came and interogated him almost arrested him for lack of a better suspect.

His company repremended him for reporting it and involving their vehicle that he was driving.

The guy who had shot it by mistake (thought it was a mule deer- it was turned loose without public notification in a county where there have been no Elk for a hundred years. A one year spike) confessed to his dad who told him the right thing to do was turn himself in.  They confiscated his gun, fined him $2500 and bared him from hunting for a couple of years till he paid the fine.   The guy gave up hunting forever. Nothing like adherring to the letter of the law. I was hunting in the Rockies on a very high Mesa in very back country. I saw a Buck that was Borderline legal. After estimating the horns for a while with the scope. I decided he was too close to measure. As I walked down the slope I saw another hunter perched in a tree (orange on of course). As I passed him he yelled at me."I thought he was legal too for a minute but he wasn't!" I replied" I wasn't sure so I let him go!" Yeah, I thought sure you were gonna shoot, good thing you didn't cause I'd a had to turn you in."   " Yeah, right after you rolled down off the mountain! You piece of shit!" Was my pleasant reply.  

OH yes, The Moral, I almost forgot. "Never loose control your your own situation with good intentions. "

brogers <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 21:40:17 (ZULU)


FWIW, if that was here, I would bypass the guy and arrange an appointment with the Sheriff.  I agree some of the resident LEO hawgs prolly have better advice, and elections are coming up!  ;-)

CDC, I have one of those Bushy flip up front sights.  It is nicely made.  It clamps on clamshell style around the shaved gas block.  With the ARMS flip up rear, I had to take some material off the sight post due to hitting low.  It is smooth and locks in the up or down position.  I am quite happy with it.  The PRI flip up sight/gas block is what is being used on the spec ops SPR rifles, however, they are a lot more expensive.  Go here:

"Who are you and why are you so stupid"  U.S. Marshals is my guess too.  Is that before or after Tommy Lee Jones tells Keanu Reeves (the DipSec secret agent man) to "lose that nickle plated sissy-pistol and get yo self a Glock"?  **Had to throw that one out there for Bill...HA!**

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 22:01:49 (ZULU)

Movie Quote

"My hypocracy only goes so far."

Goig to Front Sight next month for the CCW course.  Has anybody been?  Your impressions of the facility and training would be interesting and welcomed.

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 22:14:57 (ZULU)

Hawgs and dawgs,

If anyone has, or knows who has the E-mail address (I think it's Scott Powers) I revieved a tainted E-mail from the person. Watch out

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 22:17:29 (ZULU)

Oops, sorry for the double tap

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 22:17:38 (ZULU)

>>OH yes, The Moral, I almost forgot. "Never loose control your your own situation with good intentions."<<


I guess what you're trying to say here is, "No good deed goes unpunished." Yep. That applies too.


Who Said?...."Who are you and why are you so stupid?"


Statement was made by Earl Bassett (Fred Ward) to some kid who wanted to go "Graboid" hunting in Mexico in "Tremors 2." It's one of my grandsons favorite flicks and we've already watched it into the ground. His favorite character is Burt because he's got all the neat hardware; deuce and a half truck, high explosives, 50 BMG... you know, the good stuff ;))


I answered that earlier, but the quote was left out of the post. I thought Nick's reply had a better application than the movie. Here it is.....

>>>?>>>I was gonna say that is from Pres. George Bush to all the Gitmo detainees but that isn't in a movie yet. ;)<<<<


Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 22:22:30 (ZULU)

Another Quote:       (Good one, Mark)

"Fill your hands you SonuvaBitch!!"

Funny Fields of Potted Pot:

Call the Sherrif- It'll piss the local off. Than tell the Sherrif what an Ass the guy can be and that's why you called him instead. Don't forget the part about how you thought about calling the Feds, but you really don't like them either. BINGO- now the Sherrif is on your side now and just in case for the future too.


Todd <>
Virginia, - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 23:02:29 (ZULU)

"Fill your hands you SonuvaBitch!!"  Marshall Rooster Cogburn to Lucky Ned Pepper in True Grit?????

No pot fields here, only idiotic gang bangers killing eachother over the end product.

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 23:26:03 (ZULU)

Matt, check with George Gardner ref fabricating parts (he's a whiz with machinery).

Dan, re: Mouse guns, no little horsies.  Just say no.

Rock River has really good ones at reasonable price, very good customer service, MIL-SPEC parts (two employees of Mark Westrom at Armalite decided to branch out and use the same suppliers), and they also carry chrome-lined barrels (like the USSOCOM heavy profile under-the-handguard M4A1, except 16 inches long to avoid NFA paper).

Bushmasters are very good, but in such high demand that you may get back-order notices.

Best bet, since you don't have to settle for off-the-rack, is to have a good, competent smith build you what you want -- you'll be happier in the end, won't have to buy stuff you don't want, and get the guy to stand by his work.

Good bet for the money is to buy a 1,000 round box of 55-grain Winchester 5.56 coded Q3131A, which is made in Israel by IMI for Winchester.  As close to GI A1 ball as you're going to get without primers crimped into the case.  You can try in New Jersey.

A man who trusts any weapon out of the box is a fool and deserves what happens to him.  Heaven help anyone he's supposed to protect.

Stan, the DEA probably wouldn't mess with such a small plot.  An aggressive patrol cop will.  The right thing could also look a lot like a spray bottle of Round-Up.

90 and 100-grain bullets in a 5.56 rifle or carbine are going to need a 6.5 twist.

The Hornady de-capper and carbide expander arrived by 2-day, and it's very nice.  Seems to smooth out the press stroke as well.

Trimming cases to length by hand-turning (in quantity) blows.  I've got a Gracey for 5.56 cases, but am looking at the Giraud power trimmer for bulk 7.62 brass.

Sinister Dave <>
- Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 23:47:52 (ZULU)

"Fill your hands you son of a bitch"

Bill to Monica  1999

fields of pot update....6 hours later all traces of pot have been removed. To bad we can't get these people to work that hard at somethind legit.

Stan Caniglia <>
ohio, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 00:03:30 (ZULU)

Good job, Daniel.


Round-Up!! Excellent- Outstanding idea!

Maybe next time.


Todd <>
Virginia, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 00:06:38 (ZULU)


  I liked the the car analogy. You sound like a gearhead like me. Anyway, it's very true. Parts(gun or engine) are too expensive to throw together.

  I learned mechanics from my father, who was a really good mechanic.

He taught me to never cut corners, ensure everything is right before anything is put together, use only quality parts, never put blind faith in any component or any work not done by you, and have ALL of the information that you will need BEFORE you get started.

  I can't see why guns would be different. But, some people by expensive cars and don't change the oil!

  Remember the six P's: Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 00:32:22 (ZULU)

Thanks to all for the feedback on the AR.  Now, about Sinister's suggestion of having a competent 'smith make one:  Who are the George Gardner and Jerry Rice of the AR world?  I can't get to my e-mail 'till Saturday but am monitoring this site.

Now, who said; "I didn't ask him to come here.  If they want a chance, let 'em go some place else."

CDC' <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 00:35:48 (ZULU)

>>Movie Quote:

"My hypocracy only goes so far."<<

Setting: Doc Holliday (Val Kilmer) giving Wyatt Earps badge back to him in Tombstone after shooting Johnny Ringo. Later on in Colorado when he's on his death bed and a priest is praying over him says: "My hypocrasy seems to know no bounds."

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:04:44 (ZULU)

CDC/Dan, on ARs the best in the world is Bill Wlyde but good darn luck getting him to do anything. The Military and HP shooters wait for him. I have been waiting for an upper for about two years. My fault I said when he had time.LOL

If its a shooting/going to meet'n weapon try Bushmaster or Rock River Arms.

Undude/gone until Tuesday

MikeMiller <>
CA, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:08:10 (ZULU)

Daniel F.

"My hypocracy only goes so far."

Way too easy man!  That wat Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday in Tombstone.

Edited cause Mark beat me too it!


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:08:50 (ZULU)

Nick G.,

What's your run down too?  How many hours to go?  Shouldn't you be doing push ups?  Bet Sinister Dave could motivate that ass...  ;))


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:14:42 (ZULU)

Editted to comment via email

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:24:08 (ZULU)


I'll let ya know my time when I get back from this weekend.  Last time I ran for time, I did 1.7 miles in 12 min, while it rained, in soaking wet BDU's!  I think I'll be good to go this weekend.  And I provide my own motivation, I'm just good like that. ;)

Hopefully I'll se ya Sunday.  All we got going on Sunday is the O course so SGM should let me off to shoot if'n I pass the PT test.  We'll see I guess.  L8R mang!


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:34:11 (ZULU)

CDC..Say it aint true?? A Glock?? The Col. Would be appalled!!

Sinister...Bingo on the trusting of stock, out of the box guns..Seems the argument AGAINST custom 1911s[see the archives} in favor of out of the box, stock, Glocks ,Berettas, etc. does not equate to long guns.. If one is willing to tweek and tune and parts change his long gun to get the performance he desires/requires, why not do the same to the sidearm, if required/ desired, that is the last ditch when the primary goes down?  Few weapons are perfect, especially to a group of individuals like those here on the roster, but, to say it's perfectly OK to have to go the custom route on your long guns and then demand out of the box performance on your sidearm seems a bit contradictory...Those governed by by agency policies are obviously exempt and should hope for the best from their administrators..  Think I'm Going in circles..

Outa here

Markwell <>
Bustin' chucks in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:36:01 (ZULU)


Good luck mang,,,

Just remember.. In October, when two fatass hillbillies pull their van along side of you and shove a gun in your face and attempt to rob you, it's NOT part of the exercise.  Also,, don't f**k with a Sheriff deputy making a roadside arrest!!  It's also NOT part of the exercise...

Hope to see ya Sunday,


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 01:42:16 (ZULU)

markwell, you got it.  If your requirement is real enough where you are tasked with a no-fail mission you must be provided no-fail weapons.

How many (unclassified) can I think of off-hand without even thinking hard?

US Secret Service hand-builds their sniper rifles.

The Marines hand-build all their MEU-SOC .45s and M40s.

I'm told SF soldiers in some battalions are now issued tuned Kimber .45s (beats the plain-Jane WWII vets I had).

Boots Obermyer provides the barrels for the Mark 11 Mod 0.

Ever seen the 45 pounds of stuff you can hang on an M4 or MP-5?

Don't forget an M4 or SPR is still just a .22.

Bullet placement - bullet placement - bullet placement.   Hit him until he goes down.

Sinister Dave <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 02:35:06 (ZULU)


On AR's you might want to check out John Holliger at White Oak precision.  He is a fantastic Highpower shooter (I think he just made the Presidents' 100 this year)and a great smith.  The man does pure magic with RRA's and his prices are great too.

Hope this helps,


Rich S. <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 02:40:37 (ZULU)

CDC; The Quick and the Dead. Or was it??? IT was Gene Hackman but was it the Unforgiven? Aw hell, I don't remember worth a shiz.

Brogers < >
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 02:51:42 (ZULU)

On buying an AR:  Did alot of research a number of years ago.  Bought a Bushmaster AR shorty w/AK mussle break.  Shot it quite a bit over a four year period.  Absolutly no problems.  Called to ask questions a number of time when I thought I wanted to upgrade.  I was always able to get a "live" person quickly who acutally had some interest in what I was saying.

Quotes: "Who are you and why are you so stupid"  Yes a movie, but..

I did hear our Sec. of Defense Donnald Rumsfield say that to the White House Pess. during a briefing.

Rifle weight: (or beating a dead horse.)  We all know deep down inside that rife wight is "Mission" specific.  Hunting (either in a stand or stalking), LE sniping, Mil. sniping, hobbiest endevors, or just going to the range on weekends.  I felt sorry for the guy who carried the M60 machine gun.  Plus the Canidian snipers who have the McMillan 50 Cal.  I don't think they weight under 18lbs with ammo.  I know, less liquid refeshments.  Right, Bravo?  But I do curls and bench presses with my AICS.  Would run in the neighboorhood with it but times have changed. {;-)

Out of the box hand guns:  I have been shooting a variety of hand guns for the past 27 years for practice and compition.  Revolvers are the best bet out of the box for reliability.  1911's and clones are the worst.  But, Glock has impressed the hell out of me. Disclaimer; One should always get training if new to "handguns" and/or practice with a new handgun to get profecient.  Plus, is it for defense or target shooting?  

Quotes:  You all or (ya'll) will never guess what movie and who said the following quote:

"They drew first blood."  {;-)

Chris:  Good luck Sunday.  You seem to be getting the most compition and range time in of any of us.  Quote; "Do you feel lucky"?

Rambosky - Over...............

Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 02:55:37 (ZULU)

Larry, wasn't it that little wimp "Rambo" who said that  First Blood business... how long did it take you to come up with that?

I bet you can tell me who made the knife for that movie you rascal?

Brogers < >
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 03:01:27 (ZULU)

BROGERS:  Saw the movie a long time ago.  I liked the way he use to go "ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" when he got hurt.

I saw a copy of that knife at a flea market a while back.  When I picked it up I cut myself and said, "ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh"!  



Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 03:13:09 (ZULU)

Out of the box defence guns... the only ones that I would feel 101% confident in is:

1 - Remington 870 12ga mag.

2 - Remington 11-87 12ga mag.

For some reason, while many of the Rem products have slid, the shotgun department has their poo-poo together, and they are outstanding!

3 - Winchester M94 30-30 lever gun.

With any of these three, I would take them out of the box, load them, and defend my family without a second thought...

I would have said that about S&W revolvers 15 years ago, but no more.

Auto pistols should be shot 200 to 300 times WITHOUT cleaning, before trusting your life on them... if you have them ramped, fooled with, or modified, then shoot the 200 to 300 times again!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 03:18:16 (ZULU)

This is a few days late, but someone ('Lito?)  asked how many kids are abducted.  I went to an FBI seminar in 99 or 00 that covered child abductions.  They gave us stats from different studies, done in 80, 84, 90, and 97.  They had similar results, but looked at some slightly different angles.

354,000 abductions by family members- mostly custody disputes

450,700 children run away

127,100 children "thrown away."  That's right, "thrown away."

114,600 attempted abductions by non-family members

4,600 abductions by non-family members- "of these 200-300  are stereotypical kidnappings"  2/3 result in sexual assault.

43-147 stanger abduction homicides of children annually.

Mark <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 04:16:34 (ZULU)


      Winchester M94 .30-30's? Not the recent ones I'd wager. Ever since they dropped the old design (top ejection, "saftey" notch on hammer) every one I've tried is a POS. If I was limited to a lever it'd be a Marlin now.


      Yes, I confess. I've always been a gearhead! I finally had to come clean and admit it. And I thought no one would notice. Now - should I tell the whole truth and admit that my brother works for the ATF? ;-0

Pot plants,

           A few weeks ago I was telling 'yote bait (on e-mail) that the black helicopters sportin' FLIR units would be cruisn' my neck of the woods any time now. Front page headline in local paper the other day "Huge Marijuana Field Discovered". Seems like a joint County, State, and DEA task force found a field, not so far out in the boonies containing 10,300 almost ready to harvest plants and burned them. Wonder why they didn't put it under surveillance and bust the harvesters? Thats about $10 million dollars worth on the street! Could this be the cause of Martha goin' broke?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 05:06:00 (ZULU)

Another dead horse - rifle weight - anyone have an opinion or experience with the tensioned carbon graphite barrels like Magnum Research and Christensen arms sells?

They claim to sacrafice nothing and give up a lot of weight (which could be a sacrafice in itself).  Just curious.

"All right, people, what are you waiting for? Breakfast in bed? Another glorious day in the corps! A day in the Marine Corps is like a day on the farm. Every meal's a banquet! Every paycheck a fortune! Every formation a parade! I LOVE the corps!"

Can you place it?


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 05:57:34 (ZULU)

Damn it ! any one know how long a tetanus injection lasts, managed to skewer myself on a damn rusty nail yesterday, walking is a real bitch today.

Joe S. CA has a list of perverts you can access? hell in the UK the identity of these scumbags is protected, the government refuse to allow this information to be publicly disclosed incase the perverts are discriminated agains by the rest of the general public.

I figure a swift kneecapping of every one on the list should severely limmit the abilities of these bastards to prey on innocent kids, maybe thats what the Gov't want to avoid? They let the fuckers out of jail and or mental assylums a few years ago because it was costing to much money to keep em there (money that could be used on politicians holidays- pay and retirement funds).

Big thing on over here at the moment about catholic ministers bieng child abusers, The damn church are protecting the bastards, in my experience catholic ministers are either queer or child abusers or both or nun shaggers (I'll tell you the story about the bodies of all those babies found buried near the monastery some time), Sorry if i offend any religeouse folks on here, but no one needs a church or a vicar to be able to believe in god, especialy not a hypocritical crock of crap like whats in place over here.

Brian Sain, well I don't fit the bill, I've got a criminal record believe it or not.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 07:53:02 (ZULU)

Back to guns.

John Leveron. there is no reason that a light rifle cannot be just as accurate as a heavey one. When i take all the claggage off my 30-06,(heavey scope, longest Harris bipod, Badger rings, ACI) it is actualy quite light at 7lbs (including eagle stock pack).OK its no feather weight, but its easy enough to carry all day

Remington 700 Long Action, 23.6" Heym barrel(fluted) HS Precision thumbhole sporter stock. I'd put it against any rifle belonging to anyone on here as far as accuracy goes, providing its only 5 shot groups and we let the barrel completely cool between groups.(and some one other than me fires it, I'm out of prcatice).

Sinister Dave, "Tasked with a no fail mission, you must be provided with no fail weapons"  tell that to the Brit squaddies all around the world..


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 08:11:16 (ZULU)

"Bullet placement - bullet placement - bullet placement.   Hit him until he goes down."  Sinister Dave

Amen Brother!

Proper Placement Prevents Perforated Personell

Spec-Ops using tweaked Kimbers???  Who woulda ever thought...............

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 10:48:23 (ZULU)

Pete L

"Joe S. CA has a list of perverts you can access? hell in the UK the identity of

these scumbags is protected, the government refuse to allow this information to be

publicly disclosed incase the perverts are discriminated agains by the rest of the

general public."

Here in North Dakota these perverts are required to notify LE when they move, LE then is required to inform the public of the pervert who is moving into their area, complete with a picture and their new address. We do our posters with color pics. Wouldn't want to miss any details you know. :)

Movie Quotes:

"All right, people, what are you waiting for? Breakfast in bed? Another glorious day

in the corps! A day in the Marine Corps is like a day on the farm. Every meal's a

banquet! Every paycheck a fortune! Every formation a parade! I LOVE the corps!"

Not real sure but I think this might be Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 11:56:16 (ZULU)

DJ, I think I will take a stab at that movie quote, could it be

  "Full Metal Jacket".

drmarc <>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 12:17:28 (ZULU)

DJ, the movie quote is from "Aliens". Aint I pathetic.

How about;

" Anyone from Penthouse?"

  No response from crowd of reporters.

" Then we aint talking."

Jim <>
PDX, Or, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 13:00:32 (ZULU)

Out of the box-

Think about what you want the gun to do and in what circumstances and enviorment. Rifles- it's all about consistant accuracy at distance. Reliability has to weigh in heavily too though. Most all rifles will benefit from custom work. That work is usually held to exacting tolerancer for tight fitting parts that will mate and work together. Handguns(defensive)- Assume your dealing with a quality piece. Here the reliability is formost and the accuracy is on a lower degree. I'm not saying it's okay for it to shoot a 25' group like buckshot, but one big ragged hole is not more important than the fact that it will shoot- garanteed every time! Most quality handguns are capable of this out of the box. I'd pick my handgun up out of the sand and garante you it will perform exactly like I need it to.                Like Lito said though:

Auto pistols should be shot 200 to 300 times WITHOUT cleaning, before trusting your life on them... if you have them ramped, fooled with, or modified, then shoot the 200 to 300 times again!

Every thing you add or modify or remove increases the chance for a problem. Rifles need garanteed consistant accuracy and reasonable reliability to be worth a crap. Hanguns need garanteed consistant reliability and reasoable accuracy. Every circumstance is different, be ready for it!

Rant over-


Todd <>
Virginia, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 13:37:17 (ZULU)


Q:  If I want to establish a bore to scope true level, am I ate up by leveling accross the mounted bottoms of my rings?  Is there a better way to begin leveling my scopes?  (badgers, Loopies, optiloks)


 I've used that quote so often I thought I said it...forgot where I got it from, but versions are far older than my career!


The Casablanca quote's first part of the sentence:  "The Major's been shot..."  now that makes me nervous during AR15 proceedings!  I once went so far as to put a Model 19 in my desk drawer--a kid was going down for attempted murder, coke dealing and lost $33K in separation pay...and of course went AWOL before we could cuff him.  Glad when he got caught!

Been thinking about responding to the African scam:  The sporting side of me is curious as to who would wipe me out first, the scammers or the money is on the missus...she has years of practice.

Quote:  "Ya wanna live forever?" (Hint--POWs)

Another (easy):  "I hate Illinois Nazis" -many quotes from this one!

One to always remember: "Dyin' ain't much of a livin'..."

And one for historians:  "Colonel, I'm guarding these prisoners with no ammunition"  "Well, don't tell THEM that..."

Last thing:  I got a Surefire C2 Centurian tactical light for evaluation from a vendor (he thought I was important or something) and MIEN GOTT!  Is this thing ever bright!  I'm keeping it...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
Rice Lake, WI, Great Northwoods - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 14:29:47 (ZULU)

On custom guns.

I think at least three things cause special forces to go over to custom guns. A) The basic guns are not too good to begin with (any stock Rem 700, most M1911A1 issued to US armed forces, worn-out M-4s etc.) B) There are excessive amounts of money or qualified gunsmith labor time available (Secret Service definately has money and USMC has the gunsmiths, FBI probably has both). C) There are a lot of opportunities where the end-user can prove that his gear could be better than what is issued i.e. Special Forces in Afganistan can prove that they have a need for better guns if their guns are not working properly.

GSG9 in Germany does not use much custom guns at least for the following reasons: A) HK guns are good to begin with B) They do not have much funds or political understanding from the public for "custom killer guns" issued to police and there is not too much one can do with MP5, HK53 or PSG1 anyway and C) GSG9 does not go shooting wars all the time unlike their US collegues.

Custom guns are good but the gun builder must allways know what is important for particular use. Guns must work if they are to be used for social purposes. Target guns can fail but combat guns can not.

Any other thoughts ?


Hexa <>
Finland - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 14:36:08 (ZULU)

HEY - Hopefully it was the a**hole doing this site too.


HAMILTON, ONT. - Police busted a suspected $10-million Nigerian fraud ring on Wednesday, with the arrest of the alleged key Canadian player.

Henry (Jerry) Statz, a 61-year-old grandfather originally from Regina, is accused of helping to defraud dozens of Canadians, mostly from Western Canada, of more than $10-million.

Mr. Statz and his girlfriend and partner, Rose Brandon, 46, were led away in handcuffs from the Hamilton motel room where they have operated for nearly a year, allegedly co-ordinating the transfer of funds from Canadian "investors" to African scam artists.

Mr. Statz and Ms. Brandon were each charged with conspiracy to commit fraud and defrauding the public.

He appeared in court yesterday and is being held pending a bail hearing next week. Ms. Brandon was released on conditions.

Police hope the arrests end the alleged Canadian connection to an investment scheme that began in 1997 and involved at least 50 people -- mainly from Alberta and Moose Jaw, Sask.

Several alleged victims have gone bankrupt. In Moose Jaw alone, more than $2-million is believed to have disappeared. Police say it was the most successful scam of its kind in Canada.

The alleged scheme is a more personal version of the African advance-fee frauds that are e-mailed to thousands of potential victims who are solicited with offers of sharing in the inheritance of a rich man whose estate funds need to be transferred out of the country.

In an interview earlier this week, Mr. Statz insisted he recruited his investors to save a young African heir and his inheritance.

As he was led away on Wednesday, Mr. Statz maintained he has done nothing wrong.

"We've had nothing but problems with this estate. We have never defrauded anybody, never intended to defraud anybody. I've been with this estate for six years and we've had internal corruption. It was finally sorting out, until this all started again," he said, interrupting a detective who was reading him his rights.

Mr. Statz said earlier this week that in 1997 he met a young man from Ghana named Charles Kofi. Mr. Kofi claimed his father's fortune was locked in vaults by banks and he required investors to pay thousands of dollars in fees to release the cash, gold and jewels.

According to documents shared by Mr. Statz, the estate ran into numerous difficulties, requiring weekly payments over the next five years to supposed banks, immigration officials, government agencies, airlines, security companies and shippers.

Police say those payments were fraudulent.

Ms. Brandon said she made frequent trips to Europe to deliver cash to Mr. Kofi and his men. Ms. Brandon is accused of assisting in the fraud in only the most recent year.

Investors repeatedly gave money and never received any return on their investments, police say.

In the interview, Mr. Statz said a final resolution was just around the corner.

On Tuesday, investors revealed the latest twist: Mr. Kofi apparently informed Canadian supporters that he was on the verge of travelling to Canada to pay back his investors when he was apprehended in Belgium and deported to the Ivory Coast. Mr. Statz and others were soliciting another US$85,000, purportedly to pay Mr. Kofi's way back to Europe, when Wednesday's arrests were made.

According to Detective Sergeant Mark Simchison, head of the Hamilton police major fraud squad, Mr. Kofi does not exist. A man posing as Mr. Kofi is a front for a scheme that is directing funds to Nigerian organized crime, Det. Sgt. Simchison said.

While police say Mr. Statz and Ms. Brandon may genuinely believe the story, the couple was warned in April that their activities were illegal.

They continued soliciting money and wiring it to alleged co-conspirators in Africa and Europe, police say.

"He's not just a victim, he's much more. His willful blindness cannot be overlooked," Det. Sgt. Simchison said.

"He spent time in Nigeria. In 1993, he was allegedly confined forcibly, assaulted and robbed. He says he knows what West African fraud is. To have the experiences he's had, to have knowledge of West Africa and West African fraud, and to walk into this blindly without questioning it and recruit that much money is unbelievable."

Investors contacted on Wednesday expressed satisfaction with the bust, but they want the investigation to turn overseas now.

"Jerry is a drop in the bucket. This is good news and a good start, said Paul Blazev, a Calgary businessman who lost $500,000 and would like to see the Africans involved in the scheme arrested.

Det. Sgt. Simchison said he will seek co-operation from foreign law-enforcement agencies. Much depends on what is found in the documents officers seized on Wednesday from Mr. Statz's motel room.

"Because of the value of the fraud, I'm hoping Interpol will want to assist. Maybe there is a minute chance that the government of Nigeria might perk up their ears to this one. I won't hold my breath for that one," he said.

Most of the victims of the alleged scam appear to have been sold on the deal through business associates or personal connections.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 16:10:32 (ZULU)


 If my contact is in jail...will I still get my 32 million?  I was kinda counting on that money for a Gardner riffle purchase..:>))

Anyone remember the West Coast Marine incident where a Gang-banger got busted for being stupid in the Corps?  This punk walks past the Sergeant Major (who is now quite pissed) and straight into the Colonel's office...pulls a 45 and blows the boss out of his chair.  Punk decides to do the Top NCO, but is surprised to find an angry badd-ass waiting on him.  Gets his ass kicked and a death sentence.  This happened right on the heals of the Campbell incident where the company HQ got shot up by a loser...around 1993 or so.  Same timeframe I had my idiot running from charges.  Paranoia is in the eye of the beholder!  And thinking about it--it was my then new 629, not my model 19 in that desk drawer...that old model 19 used to travel quite extensively, though...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
Rice Lake, WI, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 17:07:49 (ZULU)

"I didn't ask him to come here.  If they want a chance, let 'em go some place else." was said by Paul Newman in "The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean".  He had just back-shot The Original (not the one from New Mexico) Bad Bob.  The movie is worth watching for that scene alone.

Another great line from a Paul Newman movie:  Very bad-guy Richard Boone had just delivered a brutal life or death ultimatum to Paul Newman's character when that character pointed a model 94 at Richard Boone and said, "I've just got one are you going to get back down that mountain."


CDC' <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 17:23:41 (ZULU)


" Anyone from Penthouse?"

 No response from crowd of reporters.

" Then we aint talking."  Sounds like Chris Tucker from Rush Hour 2???

Joe M

Recently had to purchase a surefire 6p.  Even with best internet price still came up to about $80.00. Freebies always welcomed right?

Boss came in a 0730 and left by 0800.  I can forsee some range time in my near future.  Gonna try some Rem 80gr. psp's. Sounds like a heavy round but might be fun to see how they shoot.

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 17:29:27 (ZULU)

So 'Lito says that Rem smoothbores are good. I'll take that. I notice that the box-stock comments didn't include 1911's or AR's either. Come to mention it, for a completely different reason, Glock wasn't mentioned either.

Can I get an Amen Reverend Bill?

On the S&W revolvers, I'll agree completely. I'm glad I have mine, I wouldn't buy another new one on a bet.

Markwell, right on. Tweek everything, as long as it NEEDS tweeking. Hanging dodads from something for show or sillyness isn't the ticket. If I have to play against another 1911 with a red dot sight on it, I'm going to heave. My position is though that it ought to be reliable out of the box, prove itself good, and then be slicked for added capabilities / usefulness / usability.


Stan, that was hilarious! And "round up the usual suspects"..... Billy Crystal, eh?

Potted pot? Nancy was right. Just say no. A little unleaded and a match just adds emphasis to the statement. Using this logic, I suppose the same would work for the child molesters too.

Jaeger <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 17:51:00 (ZULU)

Potted pot? Nancy was right. Just say no. A little unleaded and a match just adds emphasis to the statement. Using this

logic, I suppose the same would work for the child molesters too.

Reminds me of a movie line:

"That would never work in this country, the politicians would never go for it."

"Then shoot them first."

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 18:20:52 (ZULU)


I'd trust a S&W 4506, S&W model 19, any N Frame. A Sig. or  A Walther. A Browning A-bolt. HK 91, A "real" FN-fal,  UZI  and A Randall Knife, and a few others. Very few.

Brogers <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 18:32:30 (ZULU)

Praise be to Gaston Glock!

I'm glad I can say that now. I was afraid for a while there. Seems a lot of you guys concider Glock a bad word. I have a bunch of favorites, but I'll never be without a glock in my household and on my hip. It's even replaced my tricked out(yes I said tricked) 1911 s70.


Todd <>
Virginia, - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 18:40:22 (ZULU)

>>And one for historians:  "Colonel, I'm guarding these prisoners with no ammunition"  "Well, don't tell THEM that..."<<

Col. Joseph L. Chamberlain of the 20th Maine to a private in his command after repelling the final charge of the Army of Northern Virginia at a place called, "Little Round Top." Gettysburg, PA, July 3,1863. The Col. successfuly executed an unorthodox tactical movement that suppressed the final assault. What was significant about this was the fact that most of his men charged with bayonets and unloaded weapons.

This act (arguably) was a pivotal point in the Civil War.

**Sidenote: Picketts Charge the next day (July 4) didn't help none either**

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 18:48:29 (ZULU)

It took me a while to track this one down because I wanted it quoted correctly because I like it that much but who said this?

"I won't be wronged..I won't be insulted, and I won't be layed a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them".

I think these are great words to live by!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 19:07:02 (ZULU)

BROGERS:   A Randell knife?

You wouldn't think of bringing a knife to a gun fight would you? {;-)

I think that quote was from the "Untouchables".  Sean Connery used that line on a Mob hit man but then got shot by the backup hit man.

Anyway I have two Emerson knives.  I won't leave home without one.

By the way who did make the knives for the Rambo series?  I know Jody Simpson made the swords for the Conan series.

Rambosky - Over..............

Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 19:18:00 (ZULU)


"I won't be wronged..I won't be insulted, and I won't be layed a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them".

Was that the Duke in "Chisum"?


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 19:23:25 (ZULU)

Mark W,

 Good catch and you're right (Joshua Chamberlain, 20th Maine)--the significance of his leadership on lil' Roundtop cannot be overstated...


 As I recall--Rambo had a Randall in the first flick, but where the swords came from later is anybody's guess.  I've carried a swiss-army for years.  It knocked a lot of weight out of my pack, and that is numero-uno consideration.  Never once needed another nor bigger knife anywhere in this world!  


Joe Mahon <>
FT McCoy, WI, Back inda office - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 20:03:36 (ZULU)

Movie line:

"They said they needed urine, stool & semen samples.  I said, 'Hey Doc I'm in a hurry.  How 'bout if I just leave my underwear?'"

Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 20:34:06 (ZULU)


Any man wounded five times in the same war has cajones beyond that of the average.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 21:08:10 (ZULU)

"Well, you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie ?"

Man, I love that show.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 21:35:46 (ZULU)


 Ooops.  Rambo had a cheapo-hollow handle in 1st flick--he upgraded in later flicks!  I'm trying to remember this from a wanna-be rambo who had a Randall and never shut up about it.  He referenced one of those action-flicks--but I guess I forgot which one!

Reason for question on cant removal:  I have a loopy magnetic boresighter.  I'm sure that it adjusts itself to small errors...

Joshua C:  He also accepted the surrender at Appomatox; and to the astonishment of the grey-coats, he brought his troops to present arms as the vanquished filed by...his actions went a long way to ease the bitterness between the sides that day...a truly great man.  


Joe Mahon <>
FT McCoy, WI, US - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 21:47:00 (ZULU)

Movie quote

"Get off my obstacal you fat piece of shit, if god wanted your fat ass on my obstacal he would miracle your ass up there"


"Favorable weather conditions for the next evolotion"  "eyy eyy master cheif"

I was issued a Springfield M1A last a short time ago,  started shooting it    wow     It's sweet   It's a standard M1A with battle sights.  Going to leave it an open sight rifle.  My question is what will give me the most bang for the buck, accessories wise,   sights,or whatever.  I have glass bedded several bolt guns.  I understand this is somthing that needs to be done to these rifles.  If so gimmie some input.  should I attempt it or have it done.

It is already shooting 2moa open sights off my ruck.

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 22:03:41 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon:  KNIVES

I know alot of guys who carry the Swiss Army knife.  I saw a catalog once and realized that there are some models that could be "crew served" with its own half track because of the number of "tools" it had.

I carried the old Air Force survival knife for years.  Indstructable by Camillus.  I also have their Army issue pocket knife with US on the side and 1968 on the blade under their name.

I carry the Emerson CQB-7 and keep the Emerson Commander ready for a mission.  (It's collecting dust).

I did just get the A.G. Russsell Fall 2002 catalog.  On page 27 they have a model called "Warthog Folders" KA-BAR's new piglets.  Ugly.

Rambosky - Over.............

Larry Surretsky <>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 22:21:11 (ZULU)

Most custom, tricked out guns for self defense or survival wind up letting the user down! Many smiths have a habit of taking something like say, a box stock 1911 and doing things like squeezing the slide in a vise to "tighten it up", then adding the tighest barrel or bushing in existence, every trick ambi-this and extended-that, every lightweight internal part that man could devise, and the highest, most delicate sights around. This handgun will be lucky to clear the holster without a snag, lucky to feed any but one specialized load, and will probably snap something off if dropped. It will surely jam if dropped in the dirt.

I bought a new 1991A1 when they first came out. Did as 'lito advised and ran about 200rds of several different types and brands of ammo through it. Never malfunctioned. Then I handed it over to a local 1911 smith who only worked on this model. I explained to him what it was that I wanted and expected out of this gun. Got it back two weeks later with a very reasonable bill. The 'smith explained that he magnafluxed all steel parts, then smoothed and de-burred all internals polished the feed ramp, and reassembled, re-checking for correct operation with 20 rounds each of five different types of ammo that I left him.

Eleven years and about three thousand rounds later it still hits where I point it, has NEVER experienced a malfunction of ANY sort, and other than the'smith opening it up, checking the internals, and replacing three mainsprings strictly for maintenance, all that it's ever gotten is cleaning and lubrication. To me, that's a box stock 1911, well not quite, that I'd take anywhere. It feeds flying ashtrays, the old Black Talons, Premium Hi-Shocks, and Gold Dots without a hiccup. I get the feeling from the first couple of hundred rounds that it would have just kept on going without the little 'insurance' work that I had done, but I'll never know.

Joe Mahon,

          Leupold magnetic collimator = POS. Don't just take my word for it, check around. I sure wouldn't trust it!

EOTech sights,

             Anybody have anything to say about these things? I understand that the military just loves these things for CQB on the M4A1. Maybe somone could 'splain the advantage of a 1MOA dot reticle on a CQB sight, when all of my experience has been with a 4MOA dot in the Aimpoint Comp M4, of course both sights with no magnifaction. What am I missing?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 23, 2002, at 22:46:16 (ZULU)

Jimmy Lile made the first and (I believe) second Rambo knife.  I believe Gil Hibben made the third.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 23, 2002, at 23:09:14 (ZULU)

Nicholas; that might have been in "the Shootist".

Jimmy Lile was right as Brian said on the Rambo knife.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 00:07:04 (ZULU)

> "I won't be wronged..I won't be insulted, and I won't be layed a

> hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I

> require the same from them".

> Was that the Duke in "Chisum"?

Right cowboy wrong movie.

It was from "The Shootist" which was a pretty good John Wayne movie as John Wayne movies go.  also starred Jimmy Stewart.

Charles Of <>
- Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 00:55:32 (ZULU)

Brogers: good list-Randell Knife on my list also, but how about a Letherman wave tool? Beats a swiss army Knife. When was the last time the Swiss army actually tested any of their gear in combat? A "real" FN-sweet. Some years back I bought the last 3 Belgium FN's a Pa. distributor had in stock. Under $800 ea. Gave 2 to friends on the local police dept.,still have one. Don't shoot it much, but I can't bring myself to part with it.

Stan Caniglia <>
ohio, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 01:13:27 (ZULU)

...CDC... I have an Oly car15 and have never had any problems with it. I have shot anything and everything through it including mil surplus. 55gr. softies up to 65gr.AP rounds, all have performed well within acceptable combat limits.

here's a quote for you... "Those who do not do battle for their country, do not know with what ease they accept their citizenship in America."  any takers?

ghillie6 <>
USofA (for now), - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 01:29:12 (ZULU)


  "That would never work here...."   Red Heat?

Judge Roy Bean and Hombre("How are you gonna get down that mountain?")are two of my favorites. Especially the scene in Judge Roy Bean where Bad Bob (not Dirty Bad Bob) eats the raw onion and drinks the boiling coffee.

 "Illinois Nazis"  The Blues Brothers.

How about: LM-"You don't look like a murderer." CB-"You look like a Mountie."


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 01:49:03 (ZULU)


I don't know if I will get this all right but you left out the best part that went something like this;

after being told "That won't work here..." he says "Why?" and the reply was, "Because the lawyers won't allow it" to which the reply is "Shoot them first!"

Byron <>
CA, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 01:58:21 (ZULU)

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 02:24:12 (ZULU)


Close call last night. Wife was in the office on the computer when I opened my guns safe and she saw my tactical bolt guns...

When did you get those, she enquired? "Had them some time honey", was the answer. Whew, that was close!

Interestingly enough she was more interested in the Eagle cheek pieces, ammo holder, and come-up cards than the rifle...go figure!

First week at the Academy is over...test Monday. Acchhh!

M1A's" If your stocker is shooting 2" at 100 yards LEAVE IT ALONE! That's better accuracy that you really need in a field gun. My M1A Match is the same weight, but will do sub-moa with 168 sierra's..., but is tricked out for match work. BE VERY HAPPY!

More as I get time. Study this weekend.


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 02:36:35 (ZULU)

" Anyone from Penthouse?"

No response from crowd of reporters.

" Then we aint talking."  

 That was John Candy in "Splash"

 This game typically works thusly;  One must correctly ID the quote before posting another.

 Wes Howe:

   Made it down to Wren last weekend. Assumed you would be there. Very nice range, and I will certainly make it again.

   Jim Liles

Jim <>
PDX, Or, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 03:28:28 (ZULU)

Price Check

I have a buddy that is selling a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 270. Its an older rifle with a wood stock and varmint weight barrel. If I remember correctly the barrel was drilled and tapped but had filler screws, nothing mounted to it. He's got around 200 rnds for it along with a cheapo scope, rings, base, ammo boxes. The rifle appears to be in good shape.  I havnt shot it but I have been with him when he has.  Seemed to be pretty accurate.  Any idea what its worth?

Scott Chapman <>
- Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 03:30:27 (ZULU)

Here's a movie quote for ya..

"Good. Bad.  I'm the guy with the gun."


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 03:36:08 (ZULU)

"Good. Bad.  I'm the guy with the gun."

 Army of Darkness

Jim <>
PDX, Or, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 05:15:02 (ZULU)

When taking apart my friend's M70 Featherweight the recoil lug seems to be stuck in the stock.  Anyone have a trick for getting the action out without cracking the nice wood stock?


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 06:13:12 (ZULU)

I have wanted to get involved in long distance shooting for a couple of years.   I went out and picked up two riffles the Winchester Model 70 Stealth 308 Win and the Savage 10FP 308 Win.  For optics I worked with SWFA to purchase two - Tasco CU1260X56M scopes. (The scopes were on close out but I thought they would do the trick and I couldn't resist price.)

I have only tried to sight in the M70 and I am hitting 6 feet in front of my 4-ft target at a 100 yards and I can't adjust the scope any more. Basically the Objective is on the barrel. No more room to adjust.  I’m plowing.

Both SWFA and customer support tell me that the scope and rings “should” work on this rifle.

[Rant off]

A year later, I am ready to try this again.  My question(s) are 1) To get into long distance shooting, what type of scope should I drop on the M70 and the 10FP?  I am reading that 50-56mm is too big and I should drop down to 40-42mm.  2) Recommendations on mounts?    3) Good place to purchase #1 & #2.  And last, 4) good gunsmith in Northern Calif.?

Thanks for enduring the questions of a rookie.


San Jose CA

Rod <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 07:27:00 (ZULU)


>"When taking apart my friend's M70 Featherweight the recoil lug seems to be stuck in the stock."<

Did you remove the screws. ;))  (Sorry, I couldn't resist that one)

They are glass bedded at the factory, and can be a tight fit. Remove the screws, and just rock the action (barrel and tang) up and down... I have a few that take 10 minutes.


Brian Sain...

>"Well, you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie ?"<... "Outlaw Josie Wales"... I love it too.

In fact, I lost my last bird (North Americam, Double Brested PITA) over it... she thought it was lousy (Harumph!), and we fought for a week, and I sent her packing (not one of my wiser decisions :((



You didn't say what bases and rings you were using.  I'm assuming that the Tabasco CU1260X56M scope is a 12x60 with a 56mm objective?  Yes?  What tube size it it... 30mm?

If it is hitting the barrel, it will cause the gun to shoot very low (and it doesn't do the scope a hell of a lot of good either!)

You should consider going to a high set of rings... Burris Signature "ZEE" rings are good, and will allow you some taper adjustment with the plastic shims.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 12:02:47 (ZULU)

Movie country?  Any black powder snipers here?  How about this?

"One of these days you and I are going to have a serious disagreement."      Or, same movie...."I don't consider myself subject to much of anything."  

It's one of my favorites, and the background music is great.  I enjoy the wide and varied menu offered here.

Jerry <>
Red River Valley, Sugar Beet Country, MN, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 13:41:54 (ZULU)

Good fact sheet about 5.56 ammo:

Sinister Dave <>
- Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 14:31:37 (ZULU)

"I want your blood...and I want your souls...and I want them both right now."

And no it wasnt "Steel Magnolias".


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 14:56:05 (ZULU)


Tasco CU series scopes;  sorry man, you were screwed when you wrote the check.

I've had 5 of these, bought the first one, the others were warranty replacements.  Average life on my 308 was 30 rounds.  1st one failed out of the box.

At our 1000 yard range we require attendance in a qualifier prior to opening the 1000 yard line to a new shooter.  From time to time, someone shows up with one of these things; no one has made it past 500 yards.    On a 338 Lapua, they are a 1 shot scope.

Common failure mode is elevation turret lockup, or in two cases, complete detatchment of the elevation turret.

Sexy looking scope, but sell them now and buy something good........they cannot be repaired.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 15:10:09 (ZULU)

<<One of these days you and I are going to have a serious disagreement." Or, same movie...."I don't consider myself subject to much of anything."<<<

Hawkeye (Daniel Day Lewis) in "Last of the Mohicans." Good soundtrack. Wished I could've seen it on the big screen w/ Surround Sound.

>>I want your blood...and I want your souls...and I want them both right now."<<

Johnny Ringo to the Earp Bros. in "Tombstone." OR....was it Gooch to one of his students?

Mark (I'll be your Huckleberry) W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 15:16:23 (ZULU)

Any of you guys have any experience with installing a tripod adapter to a Leica 1200? I understand that they function more efficiently for longer ranging with a tripod. Also what would be a good tripod for the Leica?

Easy Movie Quote. "Dying ain't hard for men like you and me. It's living that's hard."

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 15:41:23 (ZULU)

Mark W.- Josie Wales....Come on that was to easy...

How Bout this easy one: "Who said that? Who the F#$% said that? Who's the slimey little communist shit twinlke toed cock sucker that just signed his own death warrant?"

I impress folks when I rattle this off...

I have been scanning the Emporium, a Springfield scope may not be my choice after all. I like a good deal..

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <>
Charlestown , SC at the moment, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 16:01:14 (ZULU)

To Anyone that knows;  What's the availability like on the Winnie Stealth in .223?

Randall #1 works good for stickin' pig.  (But so does a surplus bayonet!)


"A man's got to know his own limitations."


(Back on two wheels!)



Dennis B. Queen <>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 16:26:32 (ZULU)


  I have a Savage 10FP .308 with a Leupold Vari-X II  3x9x40 with Redfield bases and Leupold rings. They have worked well with no complaints. You can buy them from a local dealer or Midway, Midsouth Shooters Supply, Brownells, etc.

  I use two brands of scopes on various guns, Leupold and Burris. I believe they are the best value for the money. I don't know about their warranty work. I've never had to use it.

  You can get rings in various heights. If you go to a local dealer, take the gun and scope with you. That way you can get it right the first time(experience). If you have to go the trial and error route, find out about the return policy. You don't want to end up with a bunch of stuff you can't use(experience).


Yet another qoute; "Your fault, my fault, nobody's fault. I'm gonna blow your head off!"


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 16:41:52 (ZULU)


I believe it is "a man's got to know his limitations".

Clint Eastwood, movie was Magnum Force.

Mext quote:  "Everyday I come here for a large black coffee.  But today, I get my coffee, and it has sugar in it.  (pause)  A LOT of sugar."

'Lito, thanks for the advice on the chipmunks.  Little bastards are cute but causing real damage.  I will give your idea a try though.  

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 16:50:42 (ZULU)


Gunny Hartman said that during his introductory speech in Full Metal Jacket.

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 17:01:25 (ZULU)

Think I got a nasty little thing disguised as mail from CDC.....deleted it

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 17:15:44 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas: "On a .338 Lapua they are a one-shot scope."

Now, Mike, don't exaggerate.  On my .338 Lapua the Trashco CU scope lasted almost a whole box of cartridges.  3 rounds at 100, 3 rounds at 200, and 10 rounds at 500. I never did get it back as far as 1000.

My opinion: Don't put one on a rifle you intend to shoot!


BMG Mike <>
- Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 17:23:33 (ZULU)

Josey Wales' best line, concerning leaving a dead man unburied......."Worms gotta eat too"......

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 17:43:17 (ZULU)

"Your fault, my fault, nobody's fault. I'm gonna blow your head off!"

Jacob "Big Jake" McCandles to a bandito as he's looking at a chest full of cut paper and the barrels of a 12 gauge..  Gotta love John Wayne.

FMJ has got to be the bext movie for quotes in the last 30 years. Hell, maybe ever.

Alright all you chair sittin', computer watchin', Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama and Georgia livin' gun sluts....  1K shoot at AEDC, Tullahoma TN tomorrow at 12:30PM.  $10 to shoot.  Hope to see some of ya there.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Aug 25th, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 18:13:50 (ZULU)

AR15 Clone failure story- I was at the range with a buddy about two years ago while he tried out his brand new shiny high speed low drag ASA flat top heavy barrel. I have to admit it was starting to shoot a few good groups.  He asked me if I wanted to try it...Of course says me.  Luckily I settled in to his bench positon, right handed (I'm left handed).  The third round out and..........Whooooomp!  Major case failure (his reloads).  The damn thing blew up on me big time and made a huge fire ball around the whole gun and a fire blast out of the ejection port.  As I'm trying to clear the birdies from around my head and figure out what he hell just happened my buddy started slapping me in the face!!  Now I figured this guy is really, really mad at me or something and I start trying to get away from him.  Well, he chases me, still swinging and it turns out he was doing a good deed.  I hadn't realized my mustache was on fire =)  Messed the AR up real bad too.  Broken bolt & charging handle, bent gas tube & bolt carrier and destroyed the mag (which was mine of course).  He did get me a knew mag and we still laugh about it all the time.

Glocks-I'm Issued a Glock 22 at work and at first I was no Glock fan.  I had carried a Sig for years and thought highly of it, as far as double actions go.  Now I wouldn't trade the Glock for anything.  That gun is indistructable.  I have done everything you can think of to try to break it...throw it off a 60' cliff, submerge it and fire it in salt underwater, fill with gravel/sand and fire, etc.  It just keeps going.  We rarely have one go down for anything other than operator error.   With that said my summer special alternates carrying my Colt Commander Lightweight and my Kimber Pro CDP II.  Go figure huh =)

Knives-I have bunches of all the cool stuff...Emmerson, Cold Steel, Stryder... ya know the usuals.  The one that's gotten me out of more jams without question is....(drum roll please) little Swiss Army knife.  I got this small, 2 1/4" main blade, SAK years ago in Germany and the only time it leaves me is when I have to check it in on the flights.   As soon as I get off the plane it's back in my pocket.  Of course I wouldn't use it to dig a hole in granite to place a booby charge or to try to cut 55 gallon drums in half, but that's what those other brands say they can do...    

Off to the desert for fun in the sun.

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, CA, land of the libs, US of A - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 19:08:46 (ZULU)

Speaking of trusty Gerber got gone.  I gave it to somebody to use at a job last weekend and never got it back.  Took the better half to wally world today, they are carrying a Kershaw auto opener that looks real nice.  3" parkerized blade, assisted opening, serrated, pocket clip.  $55.  Are these good blades?  It looked to be nice and sturdy, the factory edge was great too.  

Wayne Simmons, bad ass linebacker with GB in the 90's died in a car wreck a couple days ago.  Word is he was trapped by his seatbelt in the burning wreck and none of the bystanders could get him out of it.  Makes you wonder how many people carry a knife.  A sharp knife may have saved the day.    

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 19:36:23 (ZULU)


Does anyone know if Valmet has a company website.



Pedro Joaristi <>
- Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 20:04:29 (ZULU)

>>Kershaw auto opener that looks real nice. 3" parkerized blade, assisted opening, serrated, pocket clip.  $55.Are these good blades?<<  

I own 2 of them and gave another to my best friends son for his HS graduation. The knife he was carrying that he got from his dad for graduation was put away in favor of the Kershaw. His Dad took a great liking to it too. Opens faster than a switchblade with a little practice. I showed mine to one of the local DPS troopers and now he wants one.

Noticed in the American Rifleman that Kershaw is coming out with another variation of that style. Will probably buy one of them too.

Both of mine are different styles. One is serrated and the other isn't. I use them extensively.

Do I like them? YES.

Josey Wales Best Exchange:

JW: "That's the way it is. When I get to liking somebody, they don't hang around very long."

Chief: "I've noticed that when you don't like somebody they don't hang around very long either."

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 20:43:01 (ZULU)

   Does anyone have information (personal experience, websites, or articales) on the Reed Knight MK11 Mod 0? What little info I have heard on it, intrest me. But don't want to sell the truck to own one!



Bill Byford <>
IL, U.S.A. - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 21:00:04 (ZULU)

Gents:   With sidearms under discussion recently, I chronographed some Federal 230 gr. .45 Hydrashocks through my Colt Combat Elite.

Seven rounds:  868 average vel.   0018 es.  0006 st. dev. Functions perfect.  

Chrono'ed five rounds through a blue early series 80, Government model.

894 average vel.  0035 es.  0012 st. dev.  Also functions perfect.  Accuracy for three shot groups runs 2-3 inches at 25 yards from a rest.  Wilson mags were used.  The Combat Elite shoots a little tighter than the blued .45, but the Elite has good three dot sights.  Old blue still has the tiny originals.  

Jerry <>
Red River Valley, MN, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 21:38:23 (ZULU)


"I won't be wronged..I won't be insulted, and I won't be layed a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them".

I think these are great words to live by!

Roger on that!!!  Too bad more people don't live by those rules.


Close; but no cigar.  It was indeed the Duke; but it's from "The Shootist".


Received the Savage 10FP stock from Stockade and it definitely looks like a "keeper".  Any ideas on action screw torque?  If I remember correctly, Savage says 25in.-lbs for their standard POS stock on the 10 FP.


Doc Holloway <>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 22:36:23 (ZULU)

Deleted double tap.  DUMB!!!


Doc Holloway <>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 22:36:26 (ZULU)


Source of "Those who do not do battle for their country do not know with what ease they accept their citizenship in America" is Dean Brelis in his book "The Face of South Vietnam."

Blaine Fields <>
San Jose, CA, - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 23:01:08 (ZULU)

Just checkin' the connection.

Blaine Fields <>
San Jose, CA, America - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 23:06:35 (ZULU)

I haven't sent an e-mail since Wednesday.  Anyone who got one that gave me as a return adress got a virus e-mail.  I didn't send it.

CDC' <>
- Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 23:09:02 (ZULU)


   I have a small lock-blade on both key rings. Also have P-38 and the Craftsman round screwdriver(about the size of a half dollar) that has four flat driver blades on it.

   All have been very useful. Key ring is a convenient place to put them, just make sure the blade actually locks.

   Anybody have a good match load recipe for .30-06? Yeah, I know, .308 is better. I have a .308, but I want to see what the '06 can do. It's a M1903 Mark I not a M1.

         LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 23:18:52 (ZULU)

>>" I want your blood...and I want your souls...and I want them both right now."

Was Tombstone.

ghillie6 <>
USofA (for now), - Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 23:58:43 (ZULU)

on the kershaw auto opener....I have one and LOVE it!!! it is extremly quick with practice and it NEVER leaves my side.

Blaine.. almost...keep trying.. it is a book/movie.

ghillie6 <>
USofA (for now), - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 00:26:18 (ZULU)

Ref: Back to School

We took my daughter back to college today.  Andy came along to help with the heavy lifting.  While he was going back and forth to the car he made some observations.  For a young fellow such as he, the Girl's Dorm area was a "Target Rich" environment.  I think he might change his own plans for higher education based upon today's experiences.

Ranger School can wait.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 00:42:41 (ZULU)

Knives, etc:

Left front pocket has an old three bladed Case knife and the right front pocket has a small stainless Buck lock-blade.  The Buck is a booger to sharpen; but holds an edge better than the Case.  Glove box in our car has an automatic center punch in case I ever end up in the water and the electric windows don't work.  My Colt or Glock would do the same thing; but my ears are already bad enough.  Old trick I learned from our local volunteer fire dept.  My pick-up doesn't need one because of the sliding back window.


Refresh my memory please.  just exactly what is an M1903 Mark I?


Doc Holloway <>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 00:47:09 (ZULU)

 Knife.....Boker Gemini, quick open, pocket clip,Kraton handle,linerlock, very good Solingen steel........

 Movie..."Dead Man"...Black and white western....unusual flick....both realistic and surreal....NOT for the wife or younguns....

  By the way, anyone try one of those new ceramic blades.... I guess a diamond hone will sharpen them....if so, is it a real pain in the ass to do?.....

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 01:32:53 (ZULU)

Sadaam wants to use al Qaeda hiding in Iraq to fight us.  Abu Nidal wanted no part of it.  Sadaam whacked him:

Al Qaeda is still there and Sadaam still intends to use them.


CDC' <>
- Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 02:54:35 (ZULU)


"The Face of South Vietnam" was published in 1968.  I'll bet that whatever book/movie you are thinking of lifted the quote from Brelis.

Blaine Fields <>
San Jose, CA, America - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 02:56:11 (ZULU)


  The M1903 Mark I was the rifle modified to use the Pedersen device.

It turned the '03 into a semi-auto by removing the bolt and installing a top fed magazine. Used a cartridge similar to the .32ACP. Ejection port is machined into the left side of the receiver. When the device wasn't being used the rifle was a standard 1903.

  They were made from 1918 to 1920. They were intended for the 1919 offensive but the war ended. In the 1930's the Pedersen devices were destroyed. There's only a few now, all museum pieces. After that the rifles were simply listed as M1903, although the receiver still has M1903 Mark I on it.

  I'm under the impression this may have been the first semi-auto rifle used by the Army. Am I mistaken? If so, what was the first?

  The rifle I have is in good condition. It has a High Standard 1944 barrel on it that looks brand new. All else but the stock is original.

Stock is a WWII replacement, again looks brand new.

  Look up Pedersen device on the internet. There's a few sights with some info.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 03:43:30 (ZULU)

"Sugar in coffee" quote was Dirty Harry. Followed a little bit later by "The most powerful handgun known to man" (I once heard that he was actually holding a .357?) and then the famous "Do you feel lucky?".


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 04:09:50 (ZULU)

>>Wayne Simmons, bad ass linebacker with GB in the 90's died in a car wreck a couple days ago.  Word is he was trapped by his seatbelt in the burning wreck and none of the bystanders could get him out of it.  Makes you wonder how many people carry a knife.  A sharp knife may have saved the day.<<


That's the reason I keep a trauma hammer in my medic kit. I don't think that's what it's called but it looks similar to a regular hammer except that it's blunt on one end and has a sharp heavy metallic point on the other. The whole idea is to take the sharp end of the hammer and hit the car/pickup window right about where the lock is (in the corner) and the window will shatter. That's only if you're first on scene, the fire dept. hasn't arrived yet AND the door can't be opened any other way.

There's also a 4" sharp serrated blade that folds from the hammer for handling seat belts. It's okay but doesn't take the place of my Kershaw in such situations. But by itself, would handle both jobs very well.

If the vehicle is already on fire, well, if it was my family there wouldn't be any doubt about what I'd do but as EMS teaches....scene safety, first.

These type hammers can be found in catalogs such as Galls or DynaMed.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 04:10:10 (ZULU)

'lito,....screws..what screws?  - - Just kidding.  Thanks - I'll work it for a while till it comes loose.

Knife - I have a Rex Applegate folder from Gerber that is really nice.  It is the single bladed compact version.  Best utility folder I ever had.  Quick to open. It has a double lock - esentially a lockable liner lock.  Really nice feel and balance.  Mine holds a good edge and sharpens right up - the few times I have to sharpen it.


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 04:31:36 (ZULU)

Action Screw Torque For FN Special Police:

Hi, all! Long Time No Write! Back on the boards, now that cooler weather is approaching (and cool weather = bolt gun weather in my book).

I have an FN Special Police (the old one in the HS Precision stock) that I purchased early this year and after having glassed it in MarineTex, it wants to shoot. It is acting like a honest .5 MOA gun out through 500M, but I have one problem: it is fond of putting the cold bore shot out at 1 o'clock, about 1 MOA high and about .5 MOA out to the right. Some old hands that I know tell me that this sort of thing is often attributable to improper torquing of the action screws, and so far as I can tell there are no aftermarket socket headed action screws for the DM Winchester M70 action, so it is kinda' hard to put just the right amount of torque on the gun. So, any ideas as to how I can get ahead of this problem?



Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Cackylacky, Us of A Freakin' A, Buddy! - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 05:41:38 (ZULU)

Winchester Model 70 Stuck in Stock: DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

Be advised that the M70 recoil lug often has a reverse bevel to it on the back face. If the rifle has been glassed and if the front face of he lug and receiver ring have been inadequatly releaved, the lug will bind in the stock and if you try to force it out, BAD, BAD thinks will happen! Don't ask me how I found his out (hint: I still maintain the customers stock in my collection).

Incidently, FN made this little idiosyncracy go away when the build the Special Police guns: mine at least has a square 90 degree angle on the rear surface.



Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Cackylacky, US of Freakin' A, Buddy! - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 05:56:29 (ZULU)


Thanks for the info.  Forgot all about that one.


Doc Holloway <>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 12:23:49 (ZULU)

The Navy now calls Mark 262 "5.56mm, 77-grain long range".

Sinister Dave <>
- Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 13:28:08 (ZULU)

My 2 cents on knives,  Brand/Model does not matter - just HAVE IT with you.  Me, I keep a few on hand in each vehicle: tool box, glove box, & good ol' pocket too.

 A couple years ago I decided to test the cutting ability of serrated vs conventional on scrap seat belts and safety harnesses, blade curvature and length made more of a difference than teeth.

I LOVE the Emerson Mini-Commander and Timberline Wortac folders(a real sleeper)for this.

My next purchases (Like this week) will be two auto centerpunches and a demolition type hand axe, the one with the spike thingee on other side, to go with the "crash bags" in the cars.

Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 13:33:07 (ZULU)

>>"Get off my obstacal you fat piece of shit, if god wanted your fat ass on my obstacal he would miracle your ass up there"<<

Full Metal Jacket - Gunny Hartman (R. Lee Ermey) to Private Pyle as Pyle attempts to climb the log tower.

>>"Who said that? Who the F#$% said that? Who's the slimey little communist shit twinlke toed cock sucker that just signed his own death warrant?"<<

Full Metal Jacket – Gunny Hartman to Private Joker in the barracks when Joker says he doesn’t believe in Jesus.

Trivia - What movie did R. Lee Ermey make his acting debut in?  And what part did he play? :-)

Another Quote - “Just because we’re holding hands doesn’t mean we’ll be taking warm showers together in the wee hours of the morning.”


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 13:33:57 (ZULU)


 Not sure if it was his first but "Firebase Gloria" was a great movie for Mr. Ermey.

 Anyone on the AR list tried the cabon fiber float tubes? I need to know how tough they are for field use. Other option is the RRA DCM tube...


        Bill Moore

Bill Moore <>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 14:35:04 (ZULU)

Moe, was it Eastwood in Hamburger Hill?

Make sure you put a drop of oil in the auto center punches!

Tom, Brownells sells hex hole screws for Win 70's.

My trauma hammer is an ax. Don't take a hatchet to a car fight. Ifin you need to extract quickly, an ax will make short work of sheet metal. Add a wedge and pry bar to it and it makes a good door opening combo.


Everyday carry is a Benchmade 710. We are limited to a 4" blade at work, go figure. Most of the patients and visitors to the hospital probably are carrying bowies and pistols.

Sunday go to meeting knife is a recently purchased short Kershaw assisted. Damn thing is sharp as a razor out of the box! Kinda gets lost in my big hands though and takes practice to produce-for-use quickly.

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 15:01:44 (ZULU)


Leupold (either the Vari-X III LR or the Mark IV), US Optics, Schmidt & Bender PMII, and NightForce NXS are all excellent scopes but may be out of your wallet's reach.  The Leupold Vari-X II 3-9X 40mm Tactical is a good "cheap" scope at around $360.00, but you'll loose the mil-dot reticle.  If you aren't looking for or need/want the mil-dot, then no big loss.

Rings and base?  Badger Ordnance.  The BO base for the Savage is scheduled to come out in the middle of September.  Ken Farell makes a nice base for the Savage as well.


Fred Moreo of Sharp Shooter Supply suggests 65 in/pounds for the front bolt and 55 in/pounds for the rear.


KEB <>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 15:16:37 (ZULU)


You got it!

Here's another one that most probably don't think about"

"Friend, there's nobody up there shooting back at you. It's not always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger--and I won't."

If you haven't established the mindset to do what needs to be done without thinking about it you just gave your opponent the edge!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 15:21:22 (ZULU)


Chores to do and then back to the Academy. Where'd the weekend go...?

Knives: LOT's of good ones. The early Spyderco Delica and Endura are great and open easily with one hand. Carry on your pocket AND they stay put...

Emerson series are all good. Comment was "Have a knife". Right on!

More class work this week and basic hand to hand. We are "nice guys" now, so I guess the "ripping off their head and shitting down their windpipes" are no longer an option...;-(

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 17:07:11 (ZULU)

Lee Ermey's first movie?  "The Boys in Company C". If I'm right, it's 'cause I cheated. It's on the TV right now!

Loopie comment,

                VX II 3-9 Tactical is available W/ Mil-Dots. Upside - it now has coated lenses, Vari X II didn't. Downside, and more important  (at least to me) is that there's still no parallax adj. *(


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 17:41:50 (ZULU)







Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 17:56:16 (ZULU)


      Of course it must be what hell is like. It comes from England;-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 18:01:56 (ZULU)

Knives:  I have a Columbia River M16 in my left pocket and a Emerson CQC-7 in the right pocket as I type this right now.  The Emerson will be replaced with a Benchmade 910 in M-2 toolsteel when it gets lost/destroyed.  I carry that when I go someplace classy, along with the bright blue Delta Elite.  The key, as already stated, is to have the knife.  I have instituted a "no knife earns you 25&5" policy in the platoon.  They don't have to carry one in the shower or when they're sleeping, every other time is fair game.  It don't have to be a Kabar, just something with a cutting surface.  Leatherman tools are great.

M16/AR smithes:  John Holliger is the man.  Everything else is wasting your time and money.  Rock River is good for stock rifles.

Child molesters disappear too.  IME local LE don't waste too much time looking for them neither.  

Anyone have the NSN/part number for the drag bag for the Barret M82A1?  I humped one of these things throughout Camp Pandleton and any option other than a purpose designed drag bag is unacceptable to me at this time.  Eagle/SOE/Tactical Tailor/etc is acceptable also.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M    

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 18:24:10 (ZULU)

I'd like to hear some personal input on what some of you would consider a good manufacturer and preference for a decent 'ruck'... med. size. Something for carrying basic essentials, like at a tactical match, etc. Contact offline if you like.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 18:41:48 (ZULU)

Wes & Bolt great comments on the EDC knives. I would love to have a AFCK Axis, but theres that MOD mini-Dieter that would look sooooooooo good in a cargo pocket on my ChicksDigiT work BDU's... ;-)

Wes - Just did the bi annual HTH and Monanadnock (ManWhataKnock, or whatever its called...) Baton courses.

Boss kept yelling "Red Zone" for some reason when I was doing the combo head Witiks and Florette Jab/Crosses during practice.......  go figgur


Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 19:19:52 (ZULU)

Anybody have a link for a supplier for the auto center punch?  I always just thought I would kick the sumbitch out if I had to.  How's that for over-confidence?

Picked up that Kershaw.  Designed by Ken Onion.  This is probably the same Kershaw knife youse guys got.  Boltster is right, kinda gets lost a little in a big hand, and it is hella sharp.  Also, apparently $55 is a really good price.  Ken, my next knife is going to be one of those CRKT M16's, I want to get the ARFCOM version.    

Back to rifles.....

Did some more break in shooting with the homebrewed AR perimeter rifle/SPR "clone".  Very light and variable wind for once.  With 55grn Winny ammo, it is now shooting honest to goodness sub moa for 10 shots.  I keep shanking 2 shots out of ten, I don't have any sandbags or anything, so I was shooting off the bench with my fist under the toe of the stock and meaty part of the forearm under the pistol grip, and that sucks.  That and the trigger parts are regular old stocker parts.  I have shot about 150 rounds now with various mags (Colt, Cooper, Labelle, etc.) and zero malfs since I assembled it and got it running (found gas tube hole in gas block was oversize).  This rifle is going to be stone reliable.  All this is not bad for a homebuilt frankengun.  I musta got lucky.  Can't wait to try some of those 77's.  Should really shine.  Too bad my loading gear is not set up at the moment.  

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 19:20:55 (ZULU)

GEOFF-Auto-center punches - Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, and good hardware storeS if you need it ASAP. I think they run around 7-10 dollars.

The last time I tried kicking a window out with steel toed boots all I did was leave skid marks, Totally Sucked considering the severity of the situation and condition of the victim.

 But theres always Could Shoulda Woulda after the fact. I WON"T be w/o the proper tools again............

I have one of the Columbia River Bearclaws buried somewhere as well, got it for the Sniper Fu Penchat Silat stuff. It Rocks there and comes with a cute little necklace as well -  very fashionable hehee

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 19:30:18 (ZULU)

Looking for advice on mounting a Zeiss Diavari VM/V 3-12x56T* with #8 Illuminated reticle to a Rem 700 KS Custom Shop .300 Win Mag rifle to use as a long distance hunting outfit.

My problem: What rings & bases do I mount the scope in? I like the Weaver-style steel bases from Warne, but I am willing to buy GOOD rings & bases from Badger Ordnance, Niteforce, Kelby, Jewell, etc. I have 2 sets of standard height Badger Ordnance rings with 1" inserts I picked up, but I know they won't work with the 56mm objective. I also like the Burris Signature Zee rings with live inserts. Have considered Kelby rings w/ Kelby Rem bases and heard or read that Jewell is also coming out with live center rings.

I want to mount this scope securely and without making ring marks on it, if possible. I have lapped Leupold & Ruger rings before and I have Sinclair & Russ Haydon ring lapping kits.

Any input is appreciated.

Clay Tyson <>
- Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 20:51:55 (ZULU)

Ermey: Chopper pilot. Apocolypse Now.  

Right ?

brian k. sain <>
- Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 21:42:04 (ZULU)

I'm checking out until the end of semester.  I'll be back just before Christmas.  

Have fun.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 21:47:13 (ZULU)


     IMO, stay away from the aluminum benchrest rings on a magnum hunting rifle. They're just not designed for that kind of use! I'm pretty sure that the Badger 'high' ring should work for your purpose, and you'll want to use steel slotted (Weaver-type) bases. Don't know if you'll need a 20MOA tapered base, depends on how much elevation adjustment is built into your Zeiss. If you need taper, Badger will fix you up. If you don't, the MWG flat base from MSP works great. I use one, it's fine. Burris Signature rings w/inserts will do it for you, but the screw attachment is not nearly as stout the mil-spec type that you torque to 65 in. lbs. If lapped and mounted properly and carefully you won't leave any marks on your scope tube. Over all, I strongly advise to stay away from any aluminum in your scope mounting system!

You should call Marty at Badger to verify ring height.


     I've been using a General No.79 auto centerpunch for over thirty years, fifteen of those years in daily use at a commercial shop. Never ever had a problem of any sort. Someone said keep it oiled - I agree. It also helps longevity if you loosen up on the tension when not in use, like you would a 'click' type torque wrench. You should be able to get one at most hardware stores, but if all else fails just flag down one of those tool trucks (Mac, Snap-on, Matco) that you see hanging around the Service Dept. of the auto dealers.

     Could you please describe your SPR clone (I want to build one)?

On or off Roster is fine.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 22:04:17 (ZULU)

ok blaine, as i have no way to verify it... mine came from "we were soldiers once and young" haven't seen the movie but the book was outstanding.

ghillie6 <>
USofA (for now), - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 22:34:09 (ZULU)

Quick Vehicle Entry Hammer:

Not the same, but similar to the one I've got.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 23:04:02 (ZULU)

MArk W--

I've got the same question as far as a good basic ruck.  I was thinking about a Becker Patrol Pack from Eagle.  But if I remember right there was some discussion about rucks a while back and I think the smaller "patrol pack" sizes were getting dropped in favor of full size rucks.  Anyone care to refresh our memories?


Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 23:36:31 (ZULU)

400 yd/mirage/cant problem.

Went to the range today. Shot CB and another 5 shots, all 1-1/4 inch to the right. Moved the windage adjustment 3 clicks left(M3 scope) fired 5 shots all in a 1 inch dot. Moved windage turret to new zero and tightened set screws. I don't know what is up? I set the zero and don't adjust for wind, I use hold offs. I was at a class 3 weekends ago and was dead on. Same lot ammo. I don't even take the cover off of the windage turret usually.

I also tried out some 175SMK's with 44.5gr Varget today. Velocity was 2575 fps average. Nice groups 5 touching but I want try to get to 2650 or 2700 fps for a 1K load for my stock Rem 700P.

TonyM <>
FL, USA - Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 23:49:35 (ZULU)

I know this is not exactly sniper stuff, but it is very closely related.  I was not a sniper and I was not a supergrunt. Would like to hear from some active duty people about rucksacks and loads.  Just about killed me humping the bush,USMC, in Viet. in 68-69 and wondering if anything has changed.  Hear rumors about the Molle stuff being bad.  I know the situation is different now.  I carried 25 twenty round mags (loaded with 18 rounds) and six canteens, not counting all of the other stuff,(70-80lbs.?) when I rotated home in Oct. 69.  My old company commander says that leader's should inspect and enforce a policy of only one basic load of ammo.(basic load equals one days amount of shooting?)  Read SLA Marshal's book, "The Soldiers Load", that he wrote back in the late 40's.

When I first got to Viet. I think I had 4 canteens, and they resupplied us with an estimated one canteen per day when water had to be flown in by Helo..  Almost killed me when some remfs filled five gal. cans based on one quart per man, per 150 men in a company(estimated)equals so many 5 gal. cans, and they didn't bother to fill the five gal. cans all the way up, so we got shorted badly.  (leaders didn't inspect the work detail, joke was on me and not my company commander)Also sent on a detail to the LZ one and half clicks and brought back two five gal. can's and received the same ration of water as the ones who didn't go. Long rant,must be my PTSD.

T <>
KC, K, - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 01:01:39 (ZULU)

GA Precision had a good showing at WCRC's 1K shoot today, with a 6.5x284(Gumby III) taking first with a 200x12 and AceHighBMG's M70's 308win w/ 22" rock barrel taking 4th with a 199x3.  Very high scores today, with 1st, 2nd and 3rd place all being 200's.  X count was what won it today.  It was as good turn out an a lot of fun, and I'd like to thank all the rosterfarians and DR Lurkers (you know who you are) that came out and made it as sucessful as it was.


I'm no longer active, but was strait leg "Light" infantry for 6 years (off and on) and my average ruck went about 110lbs.  I carried a M60 for part of it(18 months), then I was an RTO(10 months), but even a rifleman had a 85lbs plus ruck.  If we had dragon w/ night sights, push that on up to about 140lbs with ammo.  Our motto was "Too light to fight, Too heavy to run".  If you end up getting hit and going into a movement to contact, that heavy bastard wil get ya killed quick.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 02:29:26 (ZULU)


"Ken Farell makes a nice base for the Savage as well."

Do you have experience with these products?  I am looking at his matched set - with rings and 15moa base selected for tight tolerances and then serial numbered together as a set.

I spoke with Ken and he is very customer focused.  Looks like Sinclair is to carry some of his products in their next catalog.

His sets are a bit less than the Badger's and he is very willing to work with you on getting specifically what you need. He has flat, 15 moa, 20 moa and 30 moa bases and both 1" and 30mm rings.

He offered a money back satisfaction guarantee so I will let you all know how they are.


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 05:42:03 (ZULU)


I've seen and played with his bases.  Very nice and high quality with tight tolerances.  Not as many slots as the BO base, but about 1/3 the price.  But you'll need to replace the supplied mounting screws.  Unless he's changed them, the are slot type and I prefer the Torx type.  I haven't seen or played with his rings so I can't comment.  I bought the BO MAX-50 rings and can't be more pleased.

I am going to buy the BO base for my Savage, just for the heck of it.  I got a Farell 20 MOA on her right now, and I'm going to have to figure out what I'm going to do with it.  I'm not going to sell it, it IS a keeper.  A new rifle maybe ;)...


KEB <>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 11:14:59 (ZULU)

Ref: Rucks

I've had a Becker Patrol Pack for a few years and it's built like a hammer.  It's got lots of pockets and is a good pack for day hikes in warm weather.  When I've got to pack up my Gortex and Fleece I convert to my ALICE large that's been modified by "Tactical Tailor".  The larger main compartment makes quick loading and unloading easy.  With the Becker you've got to fold and stuff carefully to get much in it.  With ALICE it's just open the flap and stuff away.  FWIW the weight of my ALICE w/frame empty is less than the Becker empty.  Without a frame the Becker can be uncomfortable to carry if you load it up too much.

The subject of the soldier's load is one that will be debated long after we're all dead and gone.  I don't know the answer short of giving every soldier a four-wheeler. mmmmmmm..that's a thought.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 12:25:39 (ZULU)

T.& Others' I've long advocated the lightening of U.S. Soldiers' load. Most of the accounts I've been able to get from the different theatres and old soldiers around the barracks indicate that most kit get's abandoned immediately when the fire starts. Over 40lbs is waste. I am not counting Ordinance and Ammo. For that it's whatever you can stack on and if it get thrown aside it will be there on the way out. I'm talking assault mainly. For Scout patrol 40 lbs is the limit of practical kit. What ever is beyond that will impede progress even for a conditioned soldier and shorten his range. Let alone reduce his ability to fight and move. I've been in pretty fair condition and able to move for many miles but pack me with over 40lbs and it's going to reduce my effectiveness even though it's only 20% of my weight. A modern army on 4 wheelers is a good idea. They are low and unobtrusive. They can carry 2 men but I wouldn't start out that way. Certain terrain wouldn't allow it but when we did away with horses, and Jeeps the trouble started. Four wheelers can almost equal horses but make a hell of a lot more noise. I wouldn't pack horses the way our troops get loaded.

Ditto;'with the Glock 22. It's especially a good choice for Snipers for a multitude of reasons. OK so Uncle doesn't have since enough to go to .40's and for Military my heart goes out to you. Some police depts. are adopting the .357 Sig. I didn't think it would happen but as far as I can see it's doing quite well. The 1911 is a cool looking fine pistola if it's modified properly but it's too damn heavy to carry where a Sniper has to carry it. Weight is always a premium. Survivability of a Glock is awesome if you've taxed one a little. Yeah they got rubber sights but they don't get knocked off but don't get the adjustable it's a POS. You don't need it anyway.

The night sights are exceptional. Have I said this before? Perhaps.

Brogers < >
- Monday, August 26, 2002, at 12:49:46 (ZULU)

Re: Rucks


Where can you find the Becker Patrol Pack online?


Has anybody had any experience with this ruck?


Any thoughts about using a Camelback with another ruck (and which one)?

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 13:35:55 (ZULU)

Ref: Becker Patrol Pack

You can find them here:  FWIW if you can't find what you want at Lightfighter you probably don't need it. ;-)

Ref: Camelback

I carry my Camelback Mule inside my ALICE and it acts as a "second stage" kind of rig for stalks and what not.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 13:56:27 (ZULU)

OK boys, I am going to let the cat out of the bag a little here.

Believe it or not, I am writing a book and I need a little help.

Not cop stuff but history.  

The focus will be on the Army and Navy Snipers that operated in the Mekong Region of VN.  As we all know, the work of the Marines and Army guys that operated in the highlands are well documented. Hard to top Senichs work there. Not so for the guys down in the mud and on and around the boats.  They did some fantastic work that has never been documented.  A little of their stuff is mentioned in Hackworths latest work but mine will be sniper specific and comprehensive. NOTE: I have contacted the guys in Hacks book too.

There isn't much written on these guys and many do not even know they existed. Especially the Navy men. Vietnam, and all that came with it, complicates research and some warriors will understandably not speak about their war time experiences.  But, some time has passed, some wounds have healed (or are healing) and most are well adapted and gladly allowed me to interview them. One came to my city the day before yesterday from Wisconsin, flagged down a patrol cop, asked for me and when I met with him, he handed me a stack of photo albums two feet high.  He had been to Florida with his kids and was on his way to Houston to see an old team mate. He stopped in just to give me his stuff.  Unbelievable.

I have had a huge response from these vets and have been in contact with many.  I have received many never before seen photos that are incredible and I believe the thing is actually going to come together.  I have been invited to attend the Military Marksmanship Reunion (all the old AMTU shooters) at Benning this year to speak with many of the old Instructors and Snipers.

If any of you guys know of or operated with a sniper that served in the Mekong region I would sure like his contact info.  

He would have likely gone to sniper school at Camp Roberts Calif., Naval Ammo Dump/Hawthorne Nevada, Dong Tam, Bearcat or Cu Chi.

Thanks fellas,


PS:  The sniper that came to see me from Wisconsin decided to stay the night, and I met him at his hotel for coffee yesterday morning here in Port Arthur.  I brought my rifle along.  He had never seen anything like it.  I let him dry fire it.  He picked it up and instantly wrapped up in the sling.  It was as familiar a movement to him as putting on his boxer shorts. The rifle is wearing one of Mikes slings and I explained the cuff to him.  "Ahhhhhhhhhhh, well I'll be damned" he said.  He went into a perfect kneeling position and dry fired it again. The Mark 4 glass impressed him.  Much different than his old 21 from back in the day.  

He told me he does not sleep well at night because the old movies replay over and over and keep him awake.  I knew just what he meant.  He said he doesn't get a full nights sleep unless he is at one of his old team mates houses because he knows someone has his back. His team mates all made it back and are all still very close.

We both laughed and talked of things that we have seen through a telescopic sight.  We had a great visit.  

Then, as I was leaving, he paid me the ultimate compliment.

When I said goodbye, he shook my hand, looked right into my eyes and said this - "I can tell by looking at you and by speaking with you, that if you happened to be staying at this motel also, I would finally get a decent nights sleep"

Had a lump in my throat when I walked away.

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, August 26, 2002, at 14:14:22 (ZULU)

Burned to death due to seatbelt... hmm.  I've seen a few people burned to death in cars and the seatbelt was long gone before they received lethal burns.. I guess it could happen, but it's unlikely.  Nylon is not very "fire resistive".  I advocate EMT shears for this type of rescue... cost is around $4 US, they'll cut through a dime or anything as tough... and you will have a hard time accidentally  lopping off your hand with em'''

Breaking auto glass..Center punches work.  The best one I've seen is a little aluminum one sold by narrow as a bic pen.  I’m with Mark W, I prefer the life hammer as it is much, much faster and there are NO moving parts... you can make a "life hammer" by grinding a point on your old, spend lightweight ball peen hammer...make sure it's good hard metal, or reharden it.  

Heavy rucks... a GOOD water filter/purifier is light. I'd take it along if ground water is present.  Much lighter than a couple gallons of water.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Monday, August 26, 2002, at 14:24:40 (ZULU)


Congratulations on the shoot!  Wish I could have made it but that wasn't an option.  SGM said "hell I'd like to go fishin."  No big deal though, had fun showing up a Ranger on the obstacle course Sunday morning.  Ahh, he's a good guy and a hard trooper, glad to know him.  The run was OK but still need to shave off 21 sec. for them to be happy with it.  Should be able to have that in another 3 weeks.  They also rescheduled me for October with about 6 of us going.  That is cool too, enough people there to kick each other in the ass when we get tired and lazy.  When is the next 1000 yd shoot?  Maybe I'll be able to make that one and show ya up on your own range.  ;)


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 15:08:23 (ZULU)


 On knives...the Spiderco surrated folder was issued in my last aviation assignment--they could slice through the five point like nobody's business.  Thankfully, both my unintentional landings were controlled--and the fuelcells stayed intact! But the guy next to me had the tools to extract if the situation went south.  Come to think of it, I want two engines...I wonder if there are any Blackhawk slots open?

 On Rucks...Consider climate.  In hot regions or seasons, the ALICE (modified) always had my vote.  The external frame and the resulting ventilation on your back is well worth the lousy ergonomics.  The Lowe Alpine was a great ruck--but only in the winter.  Internal frames hug you like a parka.  Heat rash across the shoulder blades sucks bad.  The real consideration is:  Are you living out of it?  Or just toting stuff around?  My experience was living out of the ruck, so my perspective may not apply to every situation...

"Hey Pilgrim, skun' this one and I'll gitt ye another!"

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
Eau Claire, WI, US - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 15:51:06 (ZULU)


With regard to knives...

I highly recommend Anza knives. They can be seen at Check out the Boddington. Pretty Nice.

They do not make folding knives. All the blades are made from FILES... They get very sharp and stay that way.

Every hunting trip to Texas, Mine always comes up missing. The outfitters would rather have my knive that get paid. Because they can process several animal's without sharpening them.

Anyway for a general purpose hunting knive. I haven't found one better.


PS they also make a fillet knive from a band saw blade...I had mine for about 4 years now.  


bryan <>
CA, - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 16:15:22 (ZULU)

Jeremiah Johnson.

brian k. sain <>
- Monday, August 26, 2002, at 16:24:35 (ZULU)

Knives- Benchmade I have two one auto 9050SBT and one normal folder 910 Striker - I love them.  

I got a Micro-Tech LCC - but find it opens accidentally when dirty - so I sold it to a cop friend, who will not get it dirty (at least as I do).

A buddy bought a Sever-Tech (sp?) and seems quite happy with it too.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Monday, August 26, 2002, at 16:50:13 (ZULU)

Anybody interested in SMTC LR-1 for April 25-27, 2003?  I'm planning on it and need a partner.


Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 17:45:30 (ZULU)

>>Not sure if it was his first but "Firebase Gloria" was a great movie for Mr. Ermey.<<  Bill Moore

>>Ermey: Chopper pilot. Apocolypse Now. Right ? <<   Brian K. Sain

You both lose.  Take off all your clothes and run around the barracks with your M14 overhead.

>>Lee Ermey's first movie?  "The Boys in Company C". If I'm right, it's 'cause I cheated. It's on the TV right now!<<  ALAN

Right you are!  He played a (surprise) DI.  But since you cheated, you can join Bill and Brian too.


I think you’re right.  Now stop your damn yelling!

>>Moe, was it Eastwood in Hamburger Hill?<<  Bolt

Close.  Clint as Gunny Highway in “Heartbreak Ridge” as one of his grunts is hanging over him trying to see if he’s dead or alive.  Now fall in with the others!

Knives – Don’t anybody carry Ka-Bars anymore?  I have a model 1214 serrated blade and it’s little brother # 3005, a straight edge 4” folder.  They work for me!


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 18:12:13 (ZULU)

This guy makes a good custom knife, and will build anything you want.

I like the rayzor...

His name is Ray Rogers, so his web site is obviously...


Steve VanSlyke <>
Republic, WA, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 19:03:34 (ZULU)

Moe, I was wondering when someone would mention a K-Bar ;-)

This is what I carry when I am in the city: Benchmade 722 - Mel Pardue. As for when I go backpacking, it is my trusty old K-Bar. Don't carry anything else - great as a hammer for my tent pegs and a great for a sense of security for the wife :)

As for packs, I hate to say this but I would carry my MountainSmith backpack for my gear for long outings or I would carry my Becker Patrol Pack for short trips with a low weight count.

Now, the reason that I would carry a commerical pack over an ALICE pack is simple, the commerical pack provides better weight distribution which will enable me to go longer and faster. Just thinking about an AlICE pack gives me pain in the shoulder and back. You may ask about the 782 gear. This is what I figured, put it on the outside of the pack. Still easy to gain access.

Besides, the truth be it told, the weight should be distributed on the hips and not ones shoulder. If you are a big guy, you can muscle it for a bit, if you are a small guy like me, I like it off my shoulder.  

Just my thoughts -


Darren <>
SF, CA, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 19:33:28 (ZULU)

Brian K. Sain,

I'm afraid I can't help with info for your book; but please put me down for at least one copy.

Joe Mahon,

You want two engines.  You obviously never met one of my favorite Navy pilots.  His way to determine whether or not an airplane was safe to fly was simply to count the number of engines and divide the result by four.  If the answer came out less than one, it wasn't safe to fly!!  ;-)

On knives,

My Kabar needs a new sheath.  Any suggestions?



Doc Holloway <>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 19:51:33 (ZULU)

Joe, if you want 2 engine flight, the Corps have some openings in the Osprey program!!! And if that doesn't tickle your fancy, we have some cherry CH-46E's for ya.

On packs, I have tried Eagle, Black hawk, to be honest, for heavy loads, take your old large frame ruck, and send it to Kevin at US Tactical Supply. I had him do some mods on my ALICE ruck, and it's a good piece of gear now. The soft packs, even with the internal frames don't cut the mustard. Coming from a former Recon radio operator, the Alice pack with the proper modifications does the job nicely. As far as the MOLLE II, take that garbage and bury it before it stinks up the place. Good concept, but can you say, made by the lowest bidder? SOE gear works for me

On blades, A ka-bar is the best utilitarian fixed blade out there, woth all these high-speed knife manufacturers out there, dollar for dollar, you can't beat it.

Currently I carry a Randall, however, the best knife I ever owned was a hand made knife that I acquired in the Philipenes for a case of MRE's Madwe from an old 5-ton leaf spring and melted down 7.62 brass, it was the finest blade I have owned. Unfortunatly I lost it on a patrol in N.T.A., what a loss

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 19:58:40 (ZULU)

Been lurking outside the wire for some time now.......

Webmaster gave "All Clear"  for me to enter the perimeter!  Thanks to all for the great tips and testing experience on gear and sticks!

Total professionalism here, no BS like the other sites I have visited.

SC is the place!

Have installed a set of matte steel Warne bases and rings on my Steyr Professional Model "M" in .270Win.  Very good fit, finish and quality manufacturing.  Torx screws all around.  Fantastic customer service.  Looking for improvement over the Conetrol bases and rings I previously found to be lacking.

Got Knives?  As a dear friend (now deceased) used to say, "I have my pants on, don't I?"  Would not be caught without one.  Can not tell you how many I have had taken from me by the 1SG, back when he said "an Army soldier didn't need a knife on his belt" in the mid 80's.  Would like to see the top desk drawer of the 3rd ID CSM (the desk probably still in Germany)!  Currently, I am wearing a SOG folder.  Hell for stout!

Favorite movie line......

"Now is a good time to pray to God, Buddah or Jesus H. Christ..."

"I didn't know Jesus had a middle name?"

"It is HERO!  You don't think Jesus was a God Damn Hero?"


Les Martin <>
Canton, CT, USA! - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 21:17:00 (ZULU)


 Thanks for the recommendations, but one class A and one B were enough for me!  The frogs have had a bad year(s) and the osprey is still shakin' down the bugs!  Those "E-ticket" rides are for the young at heart, and I have children now!  Ha!  Besides, my 58D don't go much higher 'n fifty feet--how bad can that hurt?

Brian S.--you win.


 Took your advice and relooked .243s.  The .260 won by a mile (once I looked into it) for my boy's new riffle.  He'll open a model 7 in .260 rem on September 16 when he becomes a dreaded teenager.  I guess I ignored this round--I knew nothing of it til the roster talked it up!  The .243 worked for me--but it wasn't on my first whitetail, I had plenty of confidence in shot placement, and I was selective about each shot.  These are not the same conditions for a young'uns first time out!  Best to go with a more capable cartrige, as you suggested.  

And a thanks to all who expressed an opinion!  I was saved from steyrs, kicked up to a reasonable caliber, and generally guided by experience.  I'm risking the bolt-handle falling off, but at least I am aware of THAT issue now!  

**Stealth in .223:  I've been tripping over these all over Wisconsin.  Scheels Sport has a couple in Eau shops stock 'em.  Don't pay more than $600 (should be a few less) or someone's profiting.  My second one was well under 6 bills with loopy rings (customer changed his mind, and I used an ad from GA to get "my" price.  They matched it).  Why two? My wife likes 'em too!  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
Eau Claire, WI, US - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 21:25:01 (ZULU)


Put me down for a copy too, wouldja please?  Sounds like the makings of a good one.

Ka-Bar: have the old style leather handle USMC one for camping, hiking, etc.  It's hard to go to the office with it.  Violates the 3" blade rule and scares my boss.

Medic Jim:  Hey man, I dunno.  How about alive but unconscious?  As we both know, second hand information can be suspect, and I am sure we all allow for it.  Take it with a grain of salt.  

Geoff M <>
WI, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 21:43:20 (ZULU)

I got something off the net that sounds credible:

"Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called "political prisoners". However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released. Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were first identified. It was censored in the US from all later reports... go figure."

See you in December.

CDC' <>
- Monday, August 26, 2002, at 21:56:43 (ZULU)

K-Bar..................Gotta throw in on that one. Good ole fashioned knife. No frills, moving parts or hard to sharpen edges. Good for cookin, cleanin, scrapin, choppin, hammerin, fightin, and looks sexy as hell. Well ok maybe not, but I love mine somthin fierce. Bought it my first year in the Army...USMC on the scabbard and the knife itself. Took a boat load a shit from some closed minded types cause of the USMC thing but ya know what; between my K-Bar and my Pliers and knife kit that I got from one of the RTO"s in my company, I never needed to borrow sombody elses stuff to accomplish a task.

Oh and I shoot Glock too.........'cause, as has been pointed out, you can't kill em.

My Bushmaster Shorty is solid as a rock........Have I mentioned my Savage?...........HA!

I guess it boils down to solid durable reliable....out of box.

Mark <>
NY, - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 22:04:53 (ZULU)


BIG Knife: Becker Brutes are a very hard answer to get around. Buses' are supposed to be the next step up from the Beckers, but I dont particularly know if I *need* a step up from a Brute, especialy at 2.5 times the price. These things CHOP as well as one might want from a knife. A better tool for hacking down a small tree or some heavy brush would be hard to find. Also, I imagine its faintly Kukri-like design can serve for social applications in a pinch...

Brutes (and their little brother, the Campanion, a realy great big small knife, or small big knife, or whatever) are made from of a realy great carbon steel of some sort. The handles are some sort of plastic/linen micarta combination-type-thing that would appear about indestructable. Problem: they are also quite smooth and slippery. My solution: a coat of Brownells Aluma-Hyde and then sprinkling with bead blast media (or other round-grained sand, I suppose), then adding coats of Aluma-Hyde untill you get just the amout of grip you want. Perfectamundo!

Folders: I have been carrying a CRKT M16-14 complete with Carson Flipper for about two years now, and I cant think of a reason I would ever want any other knife. It is tough, it deploys quickly, it cuts well, and if it goes by-by, I can afford to replace it without too many tears. What is not to love?

Win M70/FNSP Action Screws:

Already have the B-Square product on hand. Great solution for the drop floorplate verson, sucky for the DM as used by FN. The front screw is too long and the threads do not seem to extend far enought back up the body of the screw to cut it off. It it starting to look more and more like a lathe project...


Tom Simpson <>
Columbia, SC, USA - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 22:26:07 (ZULU)

Well Joe,

the '46 can't go much higher. As far as the 50 ft drop, we had a mishap with a TH57, tail rotor failure on landing, too low to auto rotate, dropped from about 75 ft. Broke their backs, but will live to fly another day.

Fair Winds and Following Seas

Kush out

Kush <>
Pensacola, Lower Alabama, - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 22:32:04 (ZULU)


 Been stringing miles of barb-less wire for the horse...and reminded myself of a story:

This is no sh!t, there I was...humping across pastures near Bastogne.  We wuz the bad guys on this Op, cause they gave us AKs to carry.  Bad guys always carry AKs, right?  Along comes this fence.  Ahhhh.  I see the wire!  No problemo, I jam the wire down with the butt of the AK and step across...and WHAM!  The barrel bit me!  The wire slipped between my knees and WHAM!  The wire bit me.  About a half inch from serious pain, but pain nontheless.  Me, and a 120 pound infil ruck, jumped so high we got a world record.  I blew the landing, and the ruck body slammed me for my troubles.  Seems the AK has some connectivity from butt to barrel.  No problemo.  Next fence, I see the junction box!  I reach through to turn the fence "off."  Only now I can't let go, cause my boots are wet and....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzap!  The rest of the night I just cut the damn things with my lineman's out of the demo kit.  Sometimes the hearts and minds come second!  Those Euro fences pack a nasty punch...  Musta shorted out every farm in the Ardennes!  I walked extra klicks to dog-leg off the path I made...but it was worth not getting my fillings cooked!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, US - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 22:43:51 (ZULU)

Thought I'd chime in on the knife topic.  I carried a Ka-bar for a number of years as a Boy Scout.  Yes I was a Boy Scout, Eagle actually, one of the best my troop ever had.  That knife was used for cooking, chopping stuff, hammering tent pegs, whatever needed done basically.  Very durable knife but seemed to need sharpening pretty often.  On an antelope hunt back in MT that knife gutted my goat and was pretty much finished as far as useable sharpness goes.  Was still ok for cutting sticks and things but in my opinion needed a touch up.  Ended up skinning my goat with my Buck pathfinder model.  After my buddy got his critter my Buck gutted that thing like butter.  Afterwards that knife was still useable for most anything and could probably have went through another deer if I needed it to.  Ya gotta remember too that just skinning an antelope will tax a knives edge retainability.  Those critters gots weird kinda hair to em.  Always loved Buck knives since then.  Yes they are a pain to sharpen but once you get them there they seem to last.  But that isn't a knife I'd take to pound tent pegs and all around field use.  Ka-bar stays with the field gear!   Just my experience, take it for whatever.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Monday, August 26, 2002, at 23:48:55 (ZULU)

rotary heads all over the place. OK. Osprey rules. Shaking down bugs? That was done in carrier drills on the Potomac.

Brian, I'm up for a copy when it comes out. Let us know. Good story, and faith put properly I do believe.

Mountainsmith, now there's a pack! Joe had it right though, in warm weather, the internals are like thick saddle blankets.

Moe, glad you're back. Had me worried. And in good form too! Running around a baracks naked with a 14 overhead. Sounds...... kinky!

Bill Rogers, re: rubber sights. Never got any made of rubber, they do that so they'll bounce out of the holster faster? Now why don't you tell them the benefit of not having full length rails for the slide, so it makes less friction and much, much less prone to jam. Nah, nevermind.

Andy's Dad, target rich environment. Funny, that's what I used to call it too. If he picks the right school, both are an option.

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 00:15:00 (ZULU)

A KABAR is a pretty good knife. A lot of knives that sharpen better and hold edge better fail in combat because they break in a human body. A KABAR will bend before it breaks and keep you fighting.  

Brogers < >
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 00:23:50 (ZULU)

Thanks to all of that have taken the time to get me pointed in the right direction on scopes, bases and rings on my Win M70 and Savage 10FP.  (No easy task)

I did want to clarify the scope objective question though.  (and I may well be opening up a can of worms here)   I have been told by a couple of folks that 40-44mm is the largest piece of glass you want setting on top of your rifle.  At the same time I am hearing that the NightForce NXS (3.5-15x56 or 5.5-22x56) is one of the best choices for mounting on the Win M70

Can anyone clarify?



Rod <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 00:43:14 (ZULU)

Gents.  Just to let you guys know I have gotten access to a 1000 yard range near my home range so next years schedule will have all of the Long Range precision and service rifle shit you could want.  We've got steel and military style butts system.  I'll post here when we get the schedule ready but plan on long range courses starting around Feb.  Dudes if you want to go to one of my LR schools down here sign up for the spring courses if you can.  June-August aint pretty down here.  Mirage is thick as milk during that time.  I will schedule the long range courses early on the year and do the shorter carbine stuff at my range which has covered firing lines during the hotter times.

If anyone else wants to sign up for the Super SNiper SHootout please do so soon.  Slots are filling up.  I am using proceedes from the match to help defray costs for LE agencies attending my courses.  Money is tight down here and I do alot of LE training for free.  THere is also a Police equipment expo at the range on the 12th.  Registration form is at  

Match is open to active/reserve/retired police and mil PLUS civvies who are active firearms instructors with an incorporated firearms training business(dudes like myself!)

Out here.


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 01:05:18 (ZULU)

On the K'bar thing.  Nothing special about a K'bar.  And as far as its ability to hold an edge its just a function of the material.  A K'bar is made of carbon steel which is easy to sharpen but wont hold an edge as long as a stainless knife which will hold an edge longer but is a bitch to sharpen once dull.  K'bars are actually kind of flimsy due to the fact that the tang isnt a full tang.  The metal part that runs through the handle is only about 3/8" if I recall.

Best field knife I ever had/have is a Phillipino bolo.  Made of spring steel (Unknown make of leaf spring) has a full tang (over 1") and costs little.  A good bush knife (IMHO) should be made of carbon steel and have a full tang.  You can sharpen them easily with a stone and if you have to pry with it, the tang and carbon steel can handle it.  Stainless is rust resistant but brittle and hard to sharpen.  

Just my opinion.


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 01:16:07 (ZULU)

Joe M.

You never fail to entertain!  Where were you when I needed good leadership advice regarding reenlistment?  Heck, I would be eligible to retire in two years!  But no, the powers that be would not give me guaranteed assignment, so I left for the college/job route.  Got the degree, got the jobs, got no satisfaction....(sounds like a song, huh?)

Glad you are in your current role.  You sound like a great fit for helping the Army retain good troops!

Rod, I am not the ultimate authority on optics, but I have a couple of good tips that have worked for me.  First, to be cool, get ready to spend MORE money than your rifle costs new, then realize that when your new cool scope is not the one you want (or it is not the hot scope of the year)used it is probably worth half what you paid for it.  I've tried large objective scopes; Redfields (had to send it back 'cause the interior tube coating was peeling/flaking), Nikon, Simmons, Trashcos, Burris (OK) and Pentax (OK), but my go-to scope is a Leupold Tactical.  It has enough magnification to show my mistakes, and lets me count my pulse rate through my heartbeats.  Price is good, service and quality is excellent, and you can use the extra dollars for quality ammo and range time!

Read up a little on exit pupils and the eye's natural light gathering ability first.

All that said, simply buy quality glass, don't go overboard, and practice, practice, practice!  Once you achieve zen with your rifle and load, you can "move up" in optics.  Remember, a lot has been done with simple 4X tubes......


My .02 Pfenning.......

Les <>
Canton, CT, USA! - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 01:18:51 (ZULU)


  I have a Leupold 3x9x40. It is a good selection for a "non-professional" gun. I hunt and range shoot with it. Never used it in competition.

  My thoughts are: 1) A bigger objective generally pulls more light. This is only a concern in low light conditions. If you're hunting and it's dark enough to need a big objective, you're probably not in legal hours anyway.

2) The size difference between 40mm and 56mm is 16mm. That's 16mm more scope to catch snags, take up room, and otherwise be more cumbersome.

3) The bigger the diameter, the higher the mounts have to be. This also positions your head higher on the stock. May or may not be too comfortable. Shooting will suck if you can't relax.

4) 56mm usually costs more. It's probably not worth the expense if you're not in the business. Besides, when you get more experience and more dough, you can always expand.

 You have to figure out what you will really be doing with your rifle, then buy accordingly. And ask lots of questions, that's how we learn.

 Equipment is subjective. Just because my hot rod has a big block doesn't mean that your's needs one.

ALAN; Do you have a small-block or a big-block?

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 02:05:26 (ZULU)

If you want a real knife go to Trace's site and check out the Armageddon! Been saving my lunch money and getting ready to order!

Also, don't forget the Kuhkri's!

Moe, had a brain fart on the Heartbreak Ridge vs. Hamburger Hill. I have watched Hamburger Hill on the tube at least a dozen times this year. Still amazed at how some officers in Nam got out without being courtmarshalled or fragged. Stoopid, stoopid, stoopid!

Finally got some rain, bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 02:50:31 (ZULU)


next shoot is Sep 22nd.

40 vs 42 vs 44 vs 50 vs 56mm....

I like the smaller objectives on my hunting rifles, or one's I carry in the woods, but for the range the large objective, and weight don't bother me. Since bambi ain't shooting back yet, detection isn't an issue, but if I have some one activly looking for me,, I'd get as small an objective as I culd and still get the job done.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 03:00:13 (ZULU)

   A few months ago I purchased a new Remmington 700 Stainless Special in .308  WIN with a 5-R Milspec Barrel. It has a Kevlar-fiberglass composite  stock and a free-floating  24 inch barrel.

  The gun dealer said that Remmington made these for the Marine Corps, but had an overrun and allowed their dealers to sell them to the general public.  He only had three of these rifles and told me that they would sell very quickly. I paid 850 dollars for it.

   I bought a Leupold  VX II 3-9X 40mm tacticle scope  What can anyone tell me about these 5-R milspec barrels and are they as hard to get as my dealer claimed. I am just getting into long range shooting.   Any information on my rifle would be appreciated


Wayne Michaelchuck <>
Gibbstown, NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 03:13:25 (ZULU)

Can anyone help me find a subsonic load for the .223



Sean CAmpbell <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 03:40:20 (ZULU)

MOE,    was it "Siege of Firebase Gloria"    ??

Great Movie

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 03:49:12 (ZULU)

Just returned from Tullahoma 1K shoot w/ WCRC. What a great bunch of guys. If some of you are hesistant to go due to lack of experience or skill, don't be. The guys, especially Chris, AKA "Fatboy", will help at every turn. I really learned ALOT. As someone said, just do it.

George Gardner Rifles...

I cannot say enough.... 199-3X, first time out. I'm not that good at this LR shootin, but that man knows how to build a rifle. In this case it was definitely the equipment was better than the shooter.


thanks for all the help. Without your encouragement, I probably would still be sittin here wonderin what it's like. Congratulations on winning the match. That was a case of excellent shooting, by an excellent shooter w/ quality equipment! You're a gentleman and a scholar.


EDIT: Just caught up on the weekend. Mr. Sain, I'm sorry, I wish I could help. I'd gladly pay for a hardbound copy though. Put me down for one.

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 04:10:55 (ZULU)


     Actually, my whole world isn't made up of Chevy's, but at the present time I have a 502" big block in my garage waiting for the  right home (chassis). Also have a 383" smallblock in a built CJ3 for off road and sand-hill competition.

     Haven't done anything for the public or for pay since I retired about five years ago, and then it had only been a sideline for at least ten years. Shooting's become lots more fun!


     The Remington M700 (M24) civilian model was a limited run produced when a big distributor (Horton, Davidson, etc?) requested this special from Rem. and evidently had enough pull to get it done. I don't think that it's any more than a PSS with Remington's assembly line version of the original 5R Rock barrel. It'll have some collector value considering its limited run if not modified. Otherwise, it'll have value as a good shooter, if Remington behaved itself during manufacture!

Large objective scopes,

                       are good for the target range, sniper competitions (no one shoots back), varmint (LD) hunting, and big-game hunting, but only if you hunt your game the way those creepy Europeans do;-)) . Maybe LE sniper work, but I have no experience with that.

                       44mm and smaller scopes serve the North American big game hunter and the military sniper very well indeed! You wanna destroy balance and handling? Just install a NF large objective, or one of those huge objective Euro wonder-scopes on an M40A1, or even worse, on your average deer or elk rifle @ eight lbs. or under.


     Don't got no M14, figured a NM M1A would do. Got naked, held it above my head and ran around the barracks yelling "this is my rifle, this is my gun". Got the bayo lug caught on the silk canopy of the ol' ladys four poster. Ain't seen her so mad since I tried the "Rodeo F***in' " routine *:-(


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 04:11:03 (ZULU)

RE SUBSONIC 5.56mm these guys - were at the SHOT Show but I have not heard of them other than that - We tried to get some but have been ignored.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 04:34:44 (ZULU)

Well I had some fun out in the desert his weekend.  It was a nice family type outing, about 105 degrees, BBQs and about 16 or so people (women and kids inc).  Mostly we were plinking but some of the guys brought some "good" stuff out and we set up a range out to 1400 yds for the 50 cal guys.  These guys were getting a little too serious about the shooting so I got up and lightned the mood a little.  I really got a WTF when they heard me muttering about being too serious and saw what I was doing.  The laughter started when they saw me move the sight to the 1000 meter mark and thumb in 10 rds from the stripper clip and let the bolt go on my ....SKS =)  I dumpped all 10 rds at the 1000 yd target from a nice prone position and damn it all I actually got a lucky hit...that made for some head shaking and gut laughs.   Just remember sometimes it's better to enjoy the company and just blow off cheep ammo for a stress relief.

Pete L- Yep we can check our neighborhood for pervos here.  It won't give the names or addresses (to protect the guilty) but it shows a map with little markers at the locations of the pukes house.  It doesn't take much to find them if you really want to.  I'm almost afraid to check around my or my families houses any's really scary.

Gearheads...I knew there was a reason I liked this site so too.  I have a 68 Merc Cougar sporting a BOSS 351 (slightly modified =).  I used to run a little braket with it and it still is in the 10's.  I'm getting ready to rebuild/improve the engine/tranny and tub/narrow the rear end while I'm working on it.  Fun stuff.   Have a few good parts in the garage too, 460's, tunnel rams and all sorts of neat little go fast things.

The front night sight on my Kimber Pro CDP went dead this week =(  I talked to the Kimber custom shop and I will get it in the mail this weekend.  The folks at Kimber seemed really cool and are going to take care of me just fine.  

Take care all,

Joe S.      

Joe S. <>
Dago, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 09:39:27 (ZULU)


Glad you liked it.  Like I said, I'm working on a 20 shot at 500, 600 and 1K with burgers and dogs in between 600 and 1K for Novenmber or December.  Hope ya'll can make it down in the rollin; Chea La Wie again ;) (that was one serious bad ass ride man)  BTW,, That was the highest score for 308win,,  You sandbaggin?


If you're reading this,, shouldn't you be running?  Problem isn't you're run time,, it's that you spend all you time chasing west Memphis tail...  Put the crack whore down and back away sir,,, The swellin' will subside in a few days. ;))  Hope you can make it to the Sep 22nd match.  I have NO DOUBT that that monster will perform at 1K,, it's a superb rifle.


Dick at Premier Reticle has let slip that he's working on selling a S&B 4x14x42 with his Gen II MilDot reticle...  Not sure if it's PMII line, but this sounds like it could be the one....  I'd encourage anyone who would like one of these to drop Dick an email and let it be known.  He's doing a lot for this community, and I for one will continue to back him for his efforts.


Jot me down for one of those in Hardcopy also.  Sounds like it'll be excellent, but PLEASE,, lottsa pics ;)  I not too gud at reeding thees dais...


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 11:16:52 (ZULU)

Have any of youz bums had any "real" experence with the 30 cal Lost-river bullets, in any 30 cal rifle... .308, 300WM etc.

Not just shot 3 or 4 rounds, but have given them a good try out to long range.  I have a Frenchie frog friend who is a ballistician that needs info on them.. drop me an e-mail, I don't want to start another crapy thread on these things.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 11:39:31 (ZULU)

Been a while since I posted, sometime last spring.  I have spent about a month trying to get caught up on the roster archives.  You guys have been busy this summer.

Kevin (Andy's Dad)I will be at Rod's in October.  Look forward to shooting with you and Andy again.  I think Danny Mull may be there but I am not sure.  I saw your post on the large ALICE pack you had modified by "Tactical Tailor".  What mods did they make? What was the cost?  Do they have a web site?


I have the older Blackhawk style Three Day Assault Pack.  It is nice, well built like their other stuff but a little small compared to the ALICE pack.  I just ordered the add-on compartments that attach to the side of the pack but I haven't tested them yet.  You can also get a stuff sack that attaches to the bottom of the pack.  Will let you know how they work if you are interested.

Who has the best prices on issue Gortex pants?  Best I have found so far is about $160.00.  I know someone must have them cheaper.


Keith <>
WV, - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 11:47:56 (ZULU)


The 22nd should be good to go!  I'll try to get up your direction again in a couple weekends to practice at the 6 if we can.  That wind will really knock me out of it if'n I don't get used to dealing with it.  Time to load up a bunch and get ready.  

Knives-----Anybody handle one of the new SEAL knives by SOG?  I checked out the SEAL Pup model and liked it.  No field time with it though.  Just curious.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 13:44:08 (ZULU)

The PX is having a two day sale. 27 & 28 Aug. Please go to the Emporium for details.

Scott <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 14:05:27 (ZULU)

Ref: Rod's Match

Keith, we'll be there (SMTC) with bells on.  Because "Team Mussack" doesn't win very often our new motto is, "We're here for the beer."

Ref: Tactical Tailor

The web site is:

I had new shoulder straps and kidney belt attached, all stress points reinforced and fastex buckles installed on all the pouches and a drag handle installed.  A big draw back to the ALICE large as issued is it it slow to get into the main compartment.  With the Fastex buckles you can be in and out in a wink.  What did it cost?  Heck, I can't even remember my home phone number anymore.  They say the memory is the second thing to go and I can't remember the first thing.  I do remember that the guys at Tactical Tailor are "Good to Go".


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 14:42:04 (ZULU)

Did anyone do the MacV shoot last weekend or planning to go to the Wilson ??

Jackson <>
Central, MO, USofA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 14:47:45 (ZULU)

Awww Hell !!!!,  Chris won the match ?  All we'll hear about now is that 6.5 he shoots ...  ;-)

Congrats Bro !

Dean Miller <>
Buford, GA, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 15:24:08 (ZULU)

ALAN  >>Don't got no M14, figured a NM M1A would do. Got naked, held it above my head and ran around the barracks yelling "this is my rifle, this is my gun". Got the bayo lug caught on the silk canopy of the ol' ladys four poster. Ain't seen her so mad since I tried the "Rodeo F***in' " routine *:-( <<

Glad to help out a guy get closer to his woman!  :-)

She didn't ask you what the hell you were doing?!  hehehe


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 15:48:32 (ZULU)


     "She didn't ask what you were doing?"

After all these years she's already convinced that I'm nuts.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 16:01:58 (ZULU)

Kevin (Andy's Dad) that is the only reason I go to the matches.  Good people and good beer.

Thanks for the info on Tactical Tailor.  I think I am going to send my ruck off to them to have it reworked.


Keith <>
WV, - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 16:52:36 (ZULU)

Firstly I will apologise for covering ground I know will have been covered before (probably many times).  What are the collectives recommends for a bedding compound for bedding a HS stock?  Devcon steel, Brownell's 'Steel Bed', Marine-Tex (white or grey?), or something else?  I've checked out the search and hot tips but still want more info.

If anyone feels this has already been done to death please hit me off Roster with your thoughts.

As always, any help will be much appreciated.

All the Best


P.S. What about releasing agent?

Jon Beardsley <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 17:02:59 (ZULU)


I had been firing 150 gr. fmjbt's but for some reason, my rifle didn't like 'um much.  I was literally all ove the page and never got a good grouping.  Last weekend I fired up some Rem. 180 gr. core lokt psp's with great results and eight shots in a string sub moa.

The question I have is this.  Going from 150 to 180, my cold bore shot was on line but 2moa straight south =( is there a way to calculate how much drop will occur when trying different bullet weights prior to shooting that first shot?  As for scopes, my BSA 4-16x42AO w/target turrets and mildots is great but the 1/8 moa is just too fine of an adjustment.  Sorry guys, bought it before I started reading here.

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 17:30:27 (ZULU)

S&B - 4-14X42 PM Scope - Couple of weeks ago I sent S&B a note - I had resuested that their product dev. guys build a similar configuration and they said - it is on the way.  

So that corroborates what Chris said about the scope.  

The scope I asked for was a 4-14X44mm 30mm tube, side focus with 1/4 moa clicks and a Gen II reticle.

Response ... "The factory in Germany is already working on a scope with these features.


Mark Cromwell

Schmidt & Bender"

Holding my breath...


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 18:11:14 (ZULU)

Daniel; The problem with predicictions like that is the unknown factors involving weight of the rifle, Bipod effects and just plain old recoil. Larger bullets will shoot porportionately lower due to what I just mentioned. The recoil causes a raise of the bore and it's not possible to know just how much. Although you can tell where it will hit with computer ballistics from a known starting point it just doesn't work in practice when you change bullets. For instance if you use a 100 yard zero starting point for both bullets, it is relatively predictable. But without rezeroing the 180's it's not.

Jaeger, thanks for helping me with the Glock pitch! I forget some of the importante stuff. I apologize for liking this old piece of plastic so much. One time long ago I told about trying a HS Glock copy. I think that's what Springfield is now selling (for quite a bit more money I might add). I saw another, the other day, It really works fine and shoots a little better than the Glock. But it ain't quite as fast...he he! Rubber sights!

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 18:33:05 (ZULU)


 5R Barrels on the market in a factory riffle?  I thought my gunshop was pulling my leg...where's my checkbook..and another good divorce attorney?

Hot Rods?  Me, I opened my exhaust from the turbo back on my 7.3L Diesel, added an unrestricted airbox (coldair) and chipped the computer to increase mileage/torque etc.  My F250 can now pull down yer house.  Now that's performance!  Plus, it gets real close to 20MPG!  My big thrill now concerns "wheel travel" and ground clearance.  I got out of the hotrod mind set when I blew my motor on the 67 chevelle (High School). Now, it's just towing capacity and off-road suitability that provides thrills...but by all means have fun goin' fast!  We all have our money pits...seems that garages and gunsafes rule this site.  I love it here!

Mike (Rock):  Do you mind visitors?  I'd like to stop by in my travels about the state...drop me an email if this might be possible!  

Active Duty:  The Army just suspended Re-enlistment bonuses and locked out reenlistments within 90 days of ETS (exceptions require PERSCOM waiver with GO endorsement).  Bonuses should be back in effect on 1 OCT--but don't wait if this puts you inside of 90 days of your ETS!  Unless you are in tight with the CG...otherwise it will result in your becoming an unemployed former soldier.  Not my policies, nobody got my vote on don't go shootin' the messenger...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, US - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 18:53:42 (ZULU)

From time to time I'll post a link that some of you will find interesting.  I don't have time to read the roster, so if the SC staff objects to this, contact me by e-mail.

Nasty and credible Israeli Bio-War scenario.  This is interesting.


CDC' <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 19:07:01 (ZULU)

Well from what's just been posted about S&B , then maybe some one in their think tank has seen the light, was on phone today with em asking about 1/4moa adjustments and the guy i was talking to also said that a scope of that sort of configuration was in the pipe line, just hope it turns out to be a better try than that WW2 Italian submarine look alike that they stuck the 4th turret on...( what i want is a 4-16x42, 34mm tube, PMII, with 1cm clicks, a combined paralax and ret illum'control ala NXS, Oh will the scope genie hear my wishes???))

Well had an interesting weekend, had some hunting blokes over from the UK, they shot 5 or 6 boars, one rather nice one, one was wounded and got away( what did i say about kneck shots) a badger and a fox. Had some fun Friday night teaching some Immigrant the finer points of respect, he'd never heared of the Glasgow Kiss until then.. The Brit blokes wanted to have a look around the Frankfurt red light district, they had heared it was something like Amsterdam or the Rieperbahn in Hamburg, man what a shit hole that place is, goddamn druggies all over the place, the dregs of society hang out there, junkies injecting on every damn corner.

The political oppinion/possition here is that the German Gov't do not, under any circumstances support a move on iraq, They will not support the US or the UK in any action, well thanks a bunch Herr Schroeder, lets just hope you get voted out in September.

On knives, a guy drives at a rapid rate of knotts into a VCP in Northern Ireland, Squaddies and RUC on duty make ready to shoot the sod expecting to be attacked, car screaches to a halt, guy screams out the window, that the car has a bomb in it, he is strapped in with seat belt and tied in with some other stuff, rope, straps etc,and is panicking cos he is about to get blown all to hell,  a very sharp, swiss army knife, that just happened to be carried by one of the squaddies at the scene, saved the day, the guy was cut out in the knick of time, the VCP was cleared and the car blew all to hell, the whole place was a mess, but no casualties. An óld man, (who wasn't so old back then) told me to always carry a  pocket knife,waterproof matches, some string, and a catapult(sling shot or what ever you yanks call em), His grandfather had carried same in the trenches in France in War 1, Father (he is sure) probably carried same in Spanish civil war, he carried same in Korea and Egypt, and he figured I should also be equiped.

I ain't sure that a swiss army knife is the best for the job, but which ever you carry, make sure the sod is sharp, These serrated edge knives seem to be worth a look, Ive got a buck folding knife that has a part serrated blade, rubberised handle, i'ts my favorite at the mo.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 19:56:20 (ZULU)

Are there and Podiatrists in the house?.  I need any suggestions on a good way to build up calouses or just toughen up my feet for ruck marchin.  For some reason I'm having a hard time keeping calouses built up.  Seems like the skin starts peeling off soon after the blisters heal up.  I was thinkin about putting on the ruck and walking around the parking lot barefoot.  I've also heard about swabbing the feet with alcohol a couple times a day.  Any other suggestions?  I've tried wearing my boots barefoot but that just gives the usual blister and then it peels off after it heals.  Benzoine tincture helps a little but thought somebody here might have a better idea.  Hit me offline as most here may not care about this subject.  Thanks.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 19:58:44 (ZULU)


     Don't worry about the questions! There's always room for intellegent ones;-) About release agent, the liquid that comes with the Brownell kits works fine.... but their spraycan stuff seems to work better and is easier to use , IMHO. Don't use Marine-Tex White, it's meant for fiberglass boat hulls, etc. The gray works very well. Devcon is also real good, some smiths are using it with powdered titanium, seems like overkill to me. I've been using Brownells Steel-Bed for a couple of years. Works great, I see no reason to change at this point.

S&B Scopes,

          Boy, if they do actually build this one Pete L should be  paid some royalties! Probably be a big rush to "be the first kid on the block" to have one.  I'm sure that S&B won't release the first ones early and let the customers do their QC testing for them, like some other manufacturers do:-( Only two questions in my mind at this time - will it have the features that this community needs and wants?, and HOW MUCH WILL IT COST? HA! I'll probably be near the front of the waiting line, but inches and yards RULE;-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 20:05:15 (ZULU)

Everyone got their smallpox shots, air purifying respirator and splash suits in order?

Might want to make a call to the local hospital and ask how many 2-PAM antidote kits they have on hand should a nerve gas attack happen.

sounds corny...don't it.

In 1994, I made a similar statement to a group of highly informed fire officers, suggesting that toppling one World Trade Center into another was very possible and a real risk...

that sounded corny too...

Jim Mitchell <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 20:14:10 (ZULU)

Nick, we used to tape our feet up with that white medics tape,that stopped the blisters, I also came across some socks called Twin Skin, or something like that, double skinned socks, they cut down on the blisters a hell of a lot.

Jon, hows about some Belzona? ever heared of it? its a chemical metal that the Brit Army uses to bed the AI sniper rifle actions to the chassis of the stock. stuff was mega expensive as i remember, cost 80 quid for two pots(one has to be mixed with other) about the size of a pot nudle, I liberated 2 pots about the size of gallon paint tins when i left, i just wonder if the stuff has a shelf life? i'll have a butchers when i get back home.

Alan.I am sorely tempted to stick an order in for one of these S&B scopes, but after the italian sub fiasco, i think i may just wait to see what the thing looks like first. I've asked and asked about getting involved in field trails of kit, so far no go,


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 20:36:17 (ZULU)


 It's best to avoid the blisters at all cost.  That said, a blister is inevitable as feet swell or climate changes, etc.  Take preventative action on 'em immediately!  Callouses build without blisters just fine.    

 The boot that feels "perfect" when you buy it may play hell with your feet under loads.  Wish I had a solution, but trial and error was how I solved the worst of the blisters.  Modified jungle boots, any Danner model, and the old leg-boot (the ones with the tongue that slid around the ankles) worked best for me.  Some needed serious breaking-in...never pleasant.  To help during this process, I wore class "A" slippery nylon socks under the padded wool deals, and that helped alot.  If I got a hot spot during break-in, I put mole skin before it blistered up.  Helped too.  I tried other boots that never worked, and that too sucked.  Hightecs and the GSG9 addidas worked as advertised, but wore through quickly.  Back when this was my living, cost was not an object and I would spend money to get the "right boot."  Subtle differences, like manufacturers, could render a boot unusable for me.  You'll find the same problems as you go.  My advice, FWIW, is to experiment until you nail it...


Joe Mahon <>
Eau Claire , WI, US - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 21:00:10 (ZULU)

Nick - more, more, and more rucking.  Fryers Balsam (sp) will toughen them (and you) right up - no pain no gain.  Bets of luck.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 21:06:14 (ZULU)

Win. Stealth 308. MK 4 rings, Trashco, Harris - $ 900.00  click classifieds.  click firearms. surf down.

decent price.  It ain't mine.

brian k. sain <>
- Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 21:32:40 (ZULU)


      This place rocks! Guns and hot rods! But I have a problem my brethren. I have the need to purchase guns, ammo, tools, and speed parts. Unfortunately, I work for a small city which equals small pay. I can't make them feel my pain and subsidize my efforts.

 Anyway, I'm renovating my truck at the moment. It's a 1980 F100 stepside with a 400 big block. I'm gonna re-cam it, up the compression, etc. Would have already but I had to buy a clothes drier.

Then I needed another .308, I had only one, so I was behind! I'm glad y'all know what I mean.

 I was very close to buying a '67 Cougar XR7(all original except with

351C 4V, had 289 to begin with) from a guy in Pensacola. Even had the Anaheim,CA dealer's tag frame! Then I had to buy my parents house. Had to because I was going to loose my garage! Then I had to buy a M1 and a die set for .30-06(needed it for my collection, you know).

 After the truck is finshed I think I might go the street rod route. Looking at A models and '32 Vicky's. I have a 390 6V(3 dueces) I want to put into something special.

 I'm not a Ford only man, I like all hot rods. Just like guns, I like them all.

 Gonna shoot my new .308 this weekend. That'll relieve some of my pain.

          LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 23:11:12 (ZULU)

If you've been having a badd day... you HAVE TO GO HERE:

It will make your WEEK!!!!!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 23:14:34 (ZULU)

>>Everyone got their smallpox shots, air purifying respirator and splash suits in order?<<


I remember reading a while back where our government is working on preparing something like (don't quote me on this) about 200,000 smallpox vaccines for all areas and levels of health care providers in this country.

I suppose that we'll be hearing about it soon.


Also, did you read CDC's URL he posted? "WHY SADDAM DOESN'T NEED MISSILES."



The scenes are grimly familiar. In the Gaza Strip, Palestinian children carrying rifles chant, "Ya Saddam! Ya Saddam!" and goad the Iraqi leader to lob Scud missiles at Israel. Up the Mediterranean coast, in the basement of a Tel Aviv kindergarten, 20 teachers watch a female soldier demonstrate how to administer atropine, an anti-nerve-gas agent, to students. The Israeli army's home-front command is urging citizens to upgrade old gas masks and take home iodine pills in case Saddam Hussein sends a missile into Israel's nuclear reactor and radiation leaks out. On August 21 Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his top security advisers ordered the immunization of emergency "first-response teams" against smallpox, a virus Saddam is believed to be able to mount on his Scuds, and they continue to discuss a population-wide inoculation. And Israel has scattered Arrow anti-missile batteries across the country to defend against an Iraqi attack."


Administering Atropine for Nerve Gas? New one on me. Use it for Asystole and Bradycardia... but nerve gas? Well, it is a Parasympathetic blocker. Just don't know the characteristics of any form of nerve gas and its pathophysiological response.

Change of Protocols coming? Maybe so.

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 23:25:25 (ZULU)

Lito, that Granny gets my vote any day.

Jody, I know what you mean buddy, i was dumb enough to buy this damn house i bought, had to cancell 2 hunting trips, been working my ass of ever since and I'm $300000 worse off and the bloody place still isn't finnished. Then I blew my jeep engine, then the wife cooked her damn volkswagen, I am gagging to spend some cash on some new toys,I want one of these M16 lookalikes we can have here now, before they decide we can't have em any more, then i want an Enfield N04 Mk 1 T, and an L42. and 3 of these S&B scopes that are in the pipeline.

I used to be into custom cars a few years ago too, used to drag race a Plymouth Roadrunner, then i got into hillclimbing with BL mini's and opel manta's, and grass tracking with a ford, cost me a damn fortune, but it was all fun. Wife goes back to work end of September, maybe then i will have some spare pennies for toys.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 23:30:14 (ZULU)


I sent you a scope question via e-mail...

Joe, Locking out re-ups? Ok, this makes no sense to me at this point..

JC. I posted a question on the Battle Rifle web site concerning the scopes we discussed. I got no real response to the question..

Moe, You are a braver man than me for doing the Rodeo thing. My wife would have killed me... Just to be sure we are dicussing the same thing here, That's when you call her by another woman's name once your all hot and bothered right? Once I broke all her David Winter Cottages in one fell swoop. She didn't get to upset. Atleast the Don Stivers prints were unharmed.

If we still talking Knives, Can not beat a Kbar. I need to get another one. The most important thing about knives as has already been said is to have one. You can get picky when more than one is present.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 23:43:57 (ZULU)

Bedding Compounds:

Lesee...I think I have made the full progression since I started wrenching on guns as an amateur back in the mid' 80s...Started out the old, thin, runny AcraGlas, then on to Acraglass Gel, then became a Bisonite devote' when I got trained as a more-or-less 2112 equivilant on NM M1s and M14s, then went to Devcon aluminum when it proved to be available localy, and finaly (I thnk) have found my home with MarineTex. The Bisonite gets harder than any of them, I think, and is quite tough. You could make a pretty credible knife with Bisonite in a pinch. But, it is very, very runny and hard to control without adding a lot of flock, just like the old AcraGlas. It comes blooping out of every orifice when you seat the action in. The Devcon is both cheaper and easier to find on average without mail ordering it, but of the "major league" bedding componds, it is probably a bit softer than most. The MarineTex is my absolute fave because it is almost as easily applied as the (much softer) AcraGlas Gel product, going on with a smooth, buttery consistancy. But, when it sets up it gets incredibly hard, almost as hard as Bisonite. The gray certainly looks better than the white MarineTex, but I am not sure if there is any chemical difference. I have never used the white, so I don't know. Only downside to MarineTex (as well as Bisonite and the various Devcons) is that they do not mix on a 1:1 ratio, and so small batches are tricky to mix. Also, the MarineTex has just at tad more give to it as it is setting up, which gives you a chance to get in front of any claying in errors you may have made before the stock and action are married forever and ever, amen. Be warned, though: once the hard ones like MarineTex and Bisonite set up and you have not clayed and release agented correctly, you are well and truly screwed. Digging your way out of that one will usualy involve destroying the stock. Ouch.

The Chandlers are big on Devcon Titianium, for some odd reason. My understanding is that the Titianium product is intended for highly corrosive industrial applications and I have no reason to belive that the epoxy portion of the mixture is any different than the Steel or Aluminum products. So, unless you are going to do a low crawl through a vat of sulphuric acid, what gives? I have been meaning to ask Norm about that for several years now, but he never makes it to the Charlotte gun shows anymore (sigh).

Release Agents: the blue crap that Brownells sells (ore used to) is pretty much crap. The spray stuff from Brownells works as well as anything I have ever used, and it is a hell of a lot easier to apply evenly and consistantly than any liquid I have played with. I used to use RAM 220, an indistrial product that worked very well but is both expensive and relativly hard to get.

Pete L: I dont know what the British Army uses, but I am sure that it is at least as good as anything listed above (and perhaps better, given British prowess with epoxy composites). However, there are shelf life issues with any epoxy, at least any that I have worked with. Bisonite often goes bad after about five years, for instance.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Kackylacky, US of Freakin' A, Buddy! - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 00:22:56 (ZULU)

Ah, peace at last, TV cameras all gone home, visitors too, we where supporting the Ariane launch of MSG and Atlantic Bird tonight, but it got posponed,phew, new we can eat all the free food..

Tom, Belzona is what the Brits use, well they did on the AI rifles and i figure they still do. its hard as hell, easy to work with and is damn expensive. I figure that my box will have a sell by date on there some where, but i think maybe its getting past it,  Belzona was or is used for all sorts of jobs, it comes as standard issue in any battle damage repair kit, we once shot a hole through the engine block of an air portable landrover with a 50cal armour piercing round. we stripped the engine down, wipped out the shrapnel and a knackered piston ,repaired the holes in the block with belzona, put the whole thing back together and drove the landrover away, all the Brit tradesmen get taught battle dammage repair, and you can work wonders with Belzona,it machines pretty well too.

If mine is past it, i'll just roll it into balls for ammo for my catapult.

I've used acraglas gel with good results, the steel bed is a bitch to get here. We used epoxy fiberglas body filler to bed out L42's, it wasn't ideal, but it worked,


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 01:24:27 (ZULU)

Give the Granny a thumbs up! Shame she didn't use a 12 gauge and take care of "all" of the problem areas!

Samllpox vaccines.......Not me, not yet! "They" want to give us first responders the first half million shots. I would rather be the 499,999th person to get it just in case it don't workee.

On blisters....I have a grand worth of boots that fit in the store but didn't in the field. You should know by now where you get hot spots. Go ahead and tape those spots and carry some more with you. DON'T let a hot spot go!

Jim......2-pam, yeah right. Half the medical folks in the country don't even know what it is! I think we have a couple. I think we have two cyanide kits also.

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 01:38:55 (ZULU)

Peter my buddy:

80 quid ? pot nudle ? butchers ?

My God man, wha' in bloody 'ell you talking about ole boy ?

Speak English dude.  he hee.

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 01:50:54 (ZULU)

Ah Brian, you may have noticed that I spent the weekend with a bunch of English geezers,(men) 2 of which come from the next but one village up't road (pronounced ro-ad) and as if by magic i seem to have gotten my accent(yorkshire twang) back, its funny, we had never met before, but we knew all the same people and had covered many of the same trails  in the local female terrain. Anyhow, a pot nudle is one of these plastic pots, with nudles in (strange that eh?) you just add water, like a civie MRE. Quid is another name for Pounds Sterling, like you lot call a $ a Buck. and a Butchers, that is cockney rhyming slang for a look, butchers hook = look, it all makes perfect sense. You remember who asked for a copy of that book get any post from me yet? Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 02:19:58 (ZULU)

A blurb on nerve agent antidote injector - atropine and 2-PAM

Interesting!  When does the general population get them?  "Oh! Never mind."


edited to correct URL - thanks, Mark

BMG Mike <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 02:53:27 (ZULU)


Another trick you can use is to try and stop your feet from sweating.  If you spray deoderant on your feet each day, eventually they'll dry up and won't sweat when you march.  Then double socks will save you from the blisters.  I only got blisters once in 6 years of Light Infantry,, I should have known better than to do a 25 miler in jungle boots.


Thanks,, now the pressures on the 243WIN ;)


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 03:39:06 (ZULU)

Chris.. 243,, get a real hunting rifle,or get that pip squeak rebarreled, ha.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 03:47:03 (ZULU)

BMG Mike,

That auto-injector is a whole lot better than the old Atropine Syrette the Military used a long time ago.

Imagine a small toothpaste-type tube with a hypodermic needle attached to it. Take off the protective cover, use the wire in the inside of the needle to puncture the inner seal, stab yourself in the leg with the needle, and then start squeezing the atropine in the tube into your leg muscle. Not a lot of fun, but way better than the alternative.


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 04:22:36 (ZULU)

Did a lot of rucking in the army - Academy, Sapper School, light inf. (3-187) All I ever wor were my Corcoran IIs and one pair issue green wool socks.  Put on lots of powder and made sure the socks were relatively new.  Changed them whenever I could (once every other day up to several times per day depending on the situation) and aired em dogs out then repowder and go. PMCS on the feet.

Never got blisters.  I saw people with all that double socks, white socks, black stocking socks etc. get blisters all the time.  But do whatever works for you.

Also, there is a relatively new type of blister product by Dr Scholls I think.  It is a film, second skin sort of, that you apply to your feet where you have blisters.  Well, I sometimes get hot spots and blisters at the first part of ski season cause my feet are not up to snuff and I put these things on pre-emptively.  IT WORKS.  They stay on for about 2 days then can be removed. Perfect for a ski weekend or a 2 day FTX.  This stuff is a ton better than the crappy moleskin that the medics used.  That moleskin had an adhesive that often times made things worse.

BTW - Just bought a Kershaw Blackout folder from for 49.95 - best price I could find.


LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Placerville, CA, - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 06:30:20 (ZULU)

I have a question for the LE guys.  The Department that I work for is considering another Sniper position.  Their problem is the expense of another rifle.  I have offered to use my personally owned rifle, but they seem to think that there might be some type of legal/liability issue with it.  They already allow use of personally owned handguns and ar-15's.

My question is:  Has anyone that is currently LE, done any type of legal research on the topic of using a personal stick for duty.  If so, your help with this would be greatly appreciated. Hell I might even be able to use an opinion from any of you Lawyer types.  Especially if you have some court opinions to back it up.  (not that I am asking for free legal advise or anything)

Right now the new position is simply as my spotter.  At least that is what he will be after I train him.  Which is not a bad thing, but another certified sniper would certainly help out our team.

Thanks, mates

CR <>
PC, Ok, USA - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 09:48:24 (ZULU)

Iran is sheltering and supporting al Qaeda:

Elsewhere it was said that Qatar won't let us base operations from our bases there and Syria has declared that they are allied with Sadaam.


CDC' <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 12:49:21 (ZULU)

CR I'm not in LE or Practicing Law as of this posting so I can talk. (as I usually do). This is what I've gathered shall we say.

If you use your own rifle. Your department should include in their general policy the specifications and requirements. It can be things like say "Max Bullet weight" eg. 500 grains. Or min caliber .223. Must be Synthetic stock barrel  diameter etc. This should be inclusive of scope specifications (very general but such things as min power etc. Minimum trigger pull "importante" because the public is big on it. ) You get the idea. Most departments would also have a requirement to shoot regularly such as 1 moa. qualified monthly etc. Although the specs may not seem or shouldn't be more than those of a factory rifle and scope (don't get carried away) . This is common when specifying pistols for carry and is just good practice anyway. You can always be sued for you actions but providing the rifle is maintained and specified in their policy and it meets it you are probably in good shape. That's just my opinion for what it's worth. Based on some departmental practices I have been involved to know about within the past.

Oh yeah this isn't to replace legal advise or discourage anyone else from given their 2 worths.

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 13:14:39 (ZULU)


DEVCON recommends Titanium putty for applications requiring precision machining.  From studying the various product information sheets (, titanium putty is slightly harder than the aluminum and stainless putties (87D versus 85D using the Shore standard), has over twice the compressive strength (18,800 psi versus 8,400 for aluminum and stainless) and almost half again as much flexural and tensile strength.  Good product.  Probably why Norm uses it.  FWIW, my Chandler appears to be skim-bedded with MarineTex over the Devcon.

Be safe.

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 13:43:10 (ZULU)

CR, Yote Bait is probably giving you accurate poop on the subject. If you use a simular weapon system (Rifle & Scope, you can use better but not anything of lower quality) and the same ammo I don't think there would be a problem. Now if you went out there with a Lazaroni 7.62 Warbird and a $79.00 Tasco scope you may have trouble. But my theory is if they need killin and you don't pork the pooch on the shot. What can be said? If you were justified in taking the shot is all that should matter but wrongfull death civil suits are another thing. We had a guy here locally who was sent to be an instructor at the Academy cause he shot several folks all justified. He was called to assist another department when some nut job killed 5 officers (State Troopers and local officers in a near by small town) He off'ed the guy with his own MP5 I was told. He was thanked and sent home. But this is a little diffrent than just shooting one guy in a hostage situation. But he used the same weapon as his former duty weapon and same ammo. He can prove he was properly trained and competent with the gun. Training is the biggest factor. You can be undertraind but not over trained...

This topic is not closed. Im an idiot and others have more to say, so please do so...

(These Pumps are killing me)

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 14:44:41 (ZULU)

CR:  Contact me off list.  I am just too damn busy to type out a long winded response and up to my ass in domestic violence cases.  Plus, we had a homicide yesterday so the place is buzzin'.

409.983.8643 wk.

PETE:  The book is a work in progress.  It's a ways off though.  Locating/Contacting Snipers every week.  It is as hard to find those guys now as it was when they were in the bush.  Lotsa work. Wheeeeew.  I'll see that you get one when it goes to press.

No post yet.


brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 15:06:54 (ZULU)

Bill in Clearwater:

Thanks for the data on various Devcon products. I figured there had to be a reason, Norm (or I should say, "The Norms") being as intolerant of BS as they are.

More Action Screw Stuff:

Anybody happent to know right offhand what the specs are for the action screw threads on the M70 Winchester? I have the books that tell me, but  I cant FIND them...grrr...


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Cackylacky, US of Freakin' A, Buddy! - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 15:26:36 (ZULU)

Atropine counteracts some of the effects of nerve agents (organophosphates)...the problem is dose.  A 1 MG dose of atropine used on a healthy 21 year old male will produce 'extreme' would likely kill some of the folks that regularly post on this site...  I have seen repeat doses of atropine in the 7mg or greater range used to treat mild organophosphate exposure via pesticide ingestion.... basically the approch is to keep giving atropine until the person stops dying..... this would get real ugly with a large military grade exposure, since the patient would likely die before you could get enough atropine on board...

The other problem is that atropine wears off before the nerve agent...that's where the 2PAM comes in... 2PAM is an antidote... the problem with 2PAM is it is way too slow acting to save your life alone... that's why you need the atropine.

reality is scary, eh?

It gets worse...

Figure you need maybe 20 mg of atropine and one or two doses of 2PAM (never actually used 2PAM - I'm guessing here) to treat each patient.  Your local hospital probably has enough atropine to treat 10 or so patients.  Bolt nailed it on the head with the 2PAM, most hospitals don't have it.  Mark W, how much atropine do you have on your medic unit?  Enough for one patient?  Medics will need to "first dose" just about all the survivors, since victims will not make it to a hospital alive.  How many medics in your area are hazMat Technicians as many train to administer meds while wearing a level A suit and SCBA?  

The general rule of thumb for just about any extreme situation is that your average hospital does not have much "reserve" capacity... send them 10 major traumas or significant cases and they are "done"...a big chemical attack may generate 100's of cases....anyone for a life and death drive to the next state?

Bolt - The smallpox vaccine has been around for quite a while.... I don't believe there is any desert storm syndrom stigma associated with it....heck, if I have your age pegged right, you've already had it once, you just need a "booster".

Jim Mitchell <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 15:30:39 (ZULU)

Our EMS units carry 10mg of atropine for cardiac patients, not even enough to treat even one exposure of a lethal concentration of  organophosphoro-(tabun), phosphorofluoro- and cyanophosphorous (sarin and GF), and  thiophosphoro- or thiofluorophosphoro-(VX/others) organic exposure.

Atropine and 2PAM chloride are stockpiled at the local VA in the event of need.  Given that a lethal exposure blocks all of your acetylcholinesterase (AChE) production within about 120 seconds, you are pretty much done unless intel gets the stuff distributed before an attack.

Nasty stuff.  If you are in a high risk profession, get a good gas mask and filter system, keep in up front in your vehicle and maintain a keen awareness of what is going on around you at all times.  If you even suspect an exposure, get the mask on and worry about looking stupid later. Exposure via respiration is far more lethal that a few milligrams on the skin or clothes.  Carry a strong soap solution to wash off exposed areas.  The basic (as in not acid) soap solution destroys most chemical agents almost instantly.

Try to sit in on FD hazmat training for WMD.  For some reason, PD's don't have as good of instruction as the fire guys.

Be safe  

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 16:47:38 (ZULU)

>>Figure you need maybe 20 mg of atropine and one or two doses of 2PAM (never actually used 2PAM - I'm guessing here) to treat each patient.  Your local hospital probably has enough atropine to treat 10 or so patients.  Bolt nailed it on the head with the 2PAM, most hospitals don't have it.  Mark W, how much atropine do you have on your medic unit?<<

I don't do the drug inventory but I'm guessing maybe 10mg. Be enough to run maybe 2 codes w/o restocking but not a organophosphate poisoning incident. The thing of it is, we don't carry enough in station inventory to handle any kind of major emergency. We keep maybe a couple of cases of atropine. Same for epinephrine, lidocaine, & etc., and when you think about it about the same for LR or NS(I.V. fliud). Restocking is a bi-weekly thing.

>>Medics will need to "first dose" just about all the survivors, since victims will not make it to a hospital alive.  How many medics in your area are hazMat Technicians as many train to administer meds while wearing a level A suit and SCBA?<<

None and none. Even if trained, we don't have the equipment. We had a 3 day class on this very thing not very long ago. The powers-that-be aren't going to spend the money unless they SEE the threat. If it happens now, we're screwed. Another thing if such a thing (chemical, nuclear, biological) did happen, think everybody would show up for work? When I say that I'm thinking especially of volunteer services. Just a thought.

>>The general rule of thumb for just about any extreme situation is that your average hospital does not have much "reserve" capacity... send them 10 major traumas or significant cases and they are "done"...a big chemical attack may generate 100's of cases....anyone for a life and death drive to the next state?<<

That's the biggest problem of all. Most of our patients go to Lubbock anyway, which is 50 miles away and that's the same for any small community in our area. Almost every town around here with a 5000-7000 population had at one time a working hospital with ER. Most of these hospitals have shut down because of the simple fact they weren't able to keep their doors open.

These same communities now depend on the EMS for their medical care; emergency or otherwise. It's not a good situation and it doesn't take much to overrun all the hospitals in Lubbock especially when they're being flooded with outlying cities not to even mention their own citizens.

Not very long ago, one Lubbock hospital closed its doors to all incoming ambulances. Not unusual, but my point is that in a sure enough wide-spread emergency situation that would have an area-wide effect would have devastating results.

>>The smallpox vaccine has been around for quite a while.... I don't believe there is any desert storm syndrom stigma associated with it....heck, if I have your age pegged right, you've already had it once, you just need a "booster".<<

Got mine back in the early 60s. Didn't figure it was still effective or is it? I know back in '77', we couldn't get the vaccine for my son. They said the disease was declared 'contained.'

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 16:54:38 (ZULU)

Mark wrote: >>Another thing if such a thing (chemical, nuclear, biological) did happen, think everybody would show up for work? When I say that I'm thinking especially of volunteer services.<<

I think the volunteers would be the only ones to show up.  The good ones are usually motivated by an urge to help... no paycheck to muddy the water.

Bill wrote: >>For some reason, PD's don't have as good of instruction as the fire guys.<<

Bill!!!! Shhhhh.

Ever wonder why the police wear those special pants with the big yellow line on the side...

It is a complex, carefully developed and deployed hazmat test... if the strip is seen from a distance to be vertical, the scene is safe.  When you see it go horizontal, the area is unsafe.  The trick is getting the test strip in the proper location prior to the fire department arrival... that's why we give police units those super fast "police package" cruisers, light bars and sirens.

Recently, we have been testing an alternative use for this complex warning system.  When responding to a reported fire, if the police cruiser is noted parked directly in front of the house, or blocking the hydrant, you can pretty much assume the house is really on fire... also, if the police officer with the yellow pants is nowhere to be seen, you can bet there are now both "civilians" and at least one police officer down in the smoke filled home.  This new feature was a complete surprise... discovered through observation...over and over again.

Jim Mitchell <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 17:28:07 (ZULU)

Long, long ago, I was on a research team, looking into sublties of the cycle AChE plays the major role in. Obviously this stuff came up.

My take is simple. For the vast majority of people in this country, they should make be right with their Creator before hand.

Hopefully mutually assured destruction will be a proper deterent. If it's not, lots of people will forcibly have "a bad day".

For those so inclined, there are commercial masks and proper filters that can be purchased. Just make sure of what you're getting, it's not as straight forward as you'd think. Fit is paramount.

Similarly, one of the major players in toxicity is duration of exposure. Sure, if the dose is high enough, it doesn't matter. If it's not high enough, it does matter. If you're of the gambling persuasion, a quality mask with multiple filters, decon supplies, and a good road out of the area are where you'll place your bet.

This type stuff depresses me. In the imortal words of Reginald Denny, "WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???". Ouch, I think that was a brick upside my head.

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 17:57:46 (ZULU)

Back in the late '70s, the unit I was stationed with had issued us amylnitrate and 2 atropine injectors as part of our daily carry kit.  As part of a "special" detail, I did have the privilage to work in a "non-critical" facility that was filled and I do mean filled with all manner of disaster relief items.  Anything you could imagine from 25 gal. barrels of water (as far as the eye could see) to "yuck!!" enima bags.  In time of disaster, these items were to be delivered to metropolitan areas as quickly as possible.  It always made me curious as to how these items were to be delivered considering where and how far away from any metropolitan area we were.   Add to that, the fact that in time of distress, we were only supposed to hang on long enough for a Naval Air station some distance away to come and incinerate the ground I was standing on.  Hmmmmm... in light of changing times I hope the gov't has revised that order.

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 18:06:20 (ZULU)

Brian; let me know if I'm giving bad information based on what you know. Local Depts. would be interested.

brogers <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 18:19:05 (ZULU)

Daniel - amyl nitrate?

The military issued "poppers"?!?  Do you know what 'er, um" the illicit street use for that item is?

You probably got it as part of the cyanide antidote kit...

Jim Mitchell <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 18:23:02 (ZULU)


Not even a guess as to what they are to be used for on the "street" but a the time, as a lowly private I was informed "if memory serves correctly" if my blood started to "boil", pop it and squeeze into my pro mask to help counteract the effects of blood agents.  Then keep shooting if possible til "old painless" flew by...Being stationed there did not seem to have a very bright future but they assureded me that if i stayed long enough, my skin would definately have a vey nice glow to it =)

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 18:33:37 (ZULU)


I can and will "run away".

You guys in emergency services need to get the gear and training ASAP.

O-ethyl S-diisopropylaminomethyl methlphosphonothiolate brings a whole new meaning to "harms way".

Good luck.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 18:42:55 (ZULU)

Kevin - the problem is that the folks "in the know" are not always willing to share.  The public needs to scream louder that they want to survive.  Funding needs to be directed to the locals, not the state and federal elements that now run seven or eight classes on how to know when you have been fatally poisoned (which is what we have now)

I have most of the training and gear squared away.  It took a considerable amount of personal initiative and many, many nights and vacation days. I now invest most of my free time trying to share what I know with the guys that will go in harms way.

Daniel - Amyl nitrate is part #1 of a multi-part process to capture and remove cyanide from the body.  Cyanide is not actually a blood toxin, as it works on all the cells of the body, essentially turning them off.  It does not make your blood boil, but may feel like it (fortunately, I don't know).  "Poppers" are apparently also a smooth muscle find smooth muscle controlling things like the involuntary retention of your bowel movement...  there are some folks that employ this to ease the way into that area... note - Amyl nitrate in high doses will also cause DEATH or near death, creating a need for paramedics that will be none too pleased about attending the scene of this illicit practice.

Test for the ToxMedic geeks - what condition would an overdose of amyl nitrate cause and what is the treatment?

Jim Mitchell <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 19:10:59 (ZULU)

Apparently a true story:


The Commandant of the Marine Corps was General Al Gray, a crusty old

"Field Marine". He loved his Marines and often slipped into the mess hall wearing a faded old field jacket without any rank insignia on it. He would go through the chow line just like a private. (In this way, he was assured of being given the same rations that the lowest enlisted man received. And, woe be it to the Mess Officer if the food was found to be "unfit in quality or quantity".)

Upon becoming Commandant, General Gray was expected to do a great deal of formal entertaining, fancy dinner parties in full Dress Blue uniform and the like.  Now, the General would rather have been in the field eating cold "C-rats" around a fighting hole with a bunch of young Marines. But, the General knew his duty, and as a Marine, he was determined to do it to the best of his ability. During these formal parties a detachment of highly polished Marines from "Eighth and Eye" were detailed to assume the position of Parade Rest at various intervals around the ballroom where the festivities were being held.

At some point during one of these affairs, a very refined, big breasted, blue haired lady picked up a tray of pastry and went around the room offering confections to the guests. When she noticed these Marines in Dress Blues, standing like sculptures all around the room, she was moved with admiration. She knew that several of these men were fresh from our victory in Desert Storm. She made a beeline for the closest Lance Corporal. As she drew near him she asked, "Would you like pastry young man?"

The young Marine snapped to Attention and replied, "I don't eat that shit Ma'am." Just as quickly, he resumed the position of Parade Rest. His gaze remained fixed on some distant point throughout the exchange.

The fancy lady was taken aback! She blinked, her eyes widened, her mouth dropped open. So startled was she that she stammered, "W-W-What did you say?"

The Marine snapped back to the position Attention (like the arm of a

mouse trap smacking it's wooden base as it is tripped) and said, "I

don't eat that shit Ma'am." And, just as smartly as before, back to Parade Rest he went.

The matron was shocked, incensed, humiliated and insulted. After all, here she was an important lady, taking the time to offer something nice to this enlisted man, (well below her station in life). And he had the nerve to say THAT to HER! She exclaimed, "Well! I never...!"

The woman remembered that she had met "that military man who was over

all these 'soldiers'" a little earlier. She spotted General Gray from

across the room. He had a cigar clenched between his teeth and a

camouflaged canteen cup full of liquor in his left hand. He was talking to a group of 1st and 2nd Lieutenants. The blue haired lady went straight over to the commandant and interrupted, "General, I offered some pastry to that young man over there. And, do you know what he told me?"

General Grey cocked his eyebrow, took the cigar out of his mouth and said, "Well, no Ma'am. I don't."  The lady took in a deep breath, confident that she was expressing with her body language her rage and indignation. As she wagged her head in cadence with her words, and she paused between each word for effect, "He - said, I - don't - eat - that - SHIT- Ma'am!"

The Lieutenants standing there were in a state of flux. A couple of them choked back chuckles, and turned their heads to avoid having their smirks detected. The next thought most of them had, "God, I hope it wasn't one of MY Marines!", and the color left their faces. General Grey wrinkled his brow, cut his eyes in the direction of the Lieutenants, put his free hand to his chin and expelled a subdued, "Hummm."  "Which one did you say it was Ma'am?", the General asked. "That tall sturdy one right over there near the window, General.", the woman said with smug satisfaction. One of the Lieutenants began to look sick and put a hand on the wall for support.

General Grey, seemed deep in thought, hand still to his chin, wrinkled

brow.  Suddenly, he looked up and his expression changed to one indicating he had made a decision. He looked the fancy lady right in the eyes and said, "Well, then, FUCK 'IM! Don't give him none."


Blaine Fields <>
San Jose, CA, America - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 19:21:09 (ZULU)

>>This type stuff depresses me. In the imortal words of Reginald Denny, "WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???". Ouch, I think that was a brick upside my head.<<

Probably thrown by a diaper head that doesn't want to get along. After all we (the U.S.) is considered to be the Great Satan by the Moslem Mid-East types. Sept. 11 is coming up real soon. Any predictions?

Good thing we live a long ways from the metro areas.... eh Jaeger? :))

Looks like it's going to be several more weeks before I get to load any shells for my M1A. Wideners has my FL sizer die bushing on back order.

Does anybody know of any source of readily available Redding FL bushings for the 308?

Mark W

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 20:28:21 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 20:41:56 (ZULU)


Bill and Steve had good points.

I used my Robar 700 for a long time. No prob. PD uses 700s. Chief said cool. Qualified with it like everything else. Rubbed all the coatings off the rear lens of a MK 4 one night on a foggy deal. It's gonna take some lumps for the city humping, rappelling, etc.

It is no different from other personal firearms but some admin pukes see it otherwise. I been at it a while and have been through all this years ago, so I can use whatever I want as long as it is within the dept. guidelines.  i.e. 700, AR, etc.

If you do have to shoot somebody with it, the PD is going to impound it 'til the litigation is done. Who knows how long that will be and if they will allow you to run an oily patch through the bore for storage or not.  Who knows if they will allow you to have any say whatsoever in the storage and care of the thing ?  Kind of depends on how the deal went.  

If it went good, trigger pull and all that doesn't even come into play 99% of the time and you could have shot him with a Jimmy Dean sausage from a spud gun and been okay.

But ... if it went wrong ... everything is open to question and your ass is in the ringer.  Either way, you will have to justify everything you did and why.



If it is just not possible, a spotter is better than nothing for the two people seeing the same thing C Y A reason above.

Hey dude, if you shoot it well, you don't mind using it and they'll let ya, I say go for it.  It's your ass on the line. - join.


brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 20:47:27 (ZULU)


Thanx for the comments earlier concerning bullet weights and variables. Kinda figgered that would be the case so it just gives more incentive to go out and test and notate come ups for various rounds.

jim Mitchell

I'm quite certain now that I had nooooo idea what amyl nitrate was used for.  That sounds like a kinkier crowd than my wife and I hang out with. ;-)


Give a heads up before you come running through.  I ran out of breath just trying to repeat it :-)

Daniel Flores <>
ca, usa - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 22:30:07 (ZULU)

If you 'really' need 2-pam, you are more than likely already screwed!

To put the whole NBC thing in perspective, lots-o-first responders and civies gonna die in a full blown attack. There is 'real' training and then there is 'politically correct appearance' training. Real training ain't worth shit if; 1) you don't know the attack is coming (gee, reckon we will???) and you are exposed, and 2) if you know it's coming and your gear is setting in the back of a damn hazmat truck waiting for a commander to tell you to open the doors and suit up! Politically correct training is going to get a lot of gung-ho, play-time hazmat civies in deep doggie doo.

Found out today that I am headed to Noble Training Center at Fort McLellan to attend the WMD 'HOT' training and ICS courses this November. After being a Hazmat Tech for 10 years this will be interesting.

Smallpox is a broad issue that I wish I had an answer to. This is bad juju, just below Ebola on my list of bioshit that I don't want. I'm glad that I am not the goony pig that is testing the vaccines.

On masks, don't buy a cheap one, don't buy one until you have a quantitative fit test, and don't buy one until you determine if you are claustraphobic and can't wear the thing. MSA makes some good ones.

Enough of Hazmatcountry for now, BioBolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 22:37:32 (ZULU)


<Anybody happent to know right offhand what the specs are for the action screw threads on the M70 Winchester? I have the books that tell me, but  I cant FIND them...grrr...>

They're 1/4-32......yeah, know what you mean, hunting for something and can't find it!  

Jerry <>
Halstad, MN, USA - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 23:16:41 (ZULU)

Municipal stupidity;

   I work for a city water system so I know what y'all are talking about. It's amazing how much someone can learn about everyone's jobs just by getting elected! I should get elected, then I'll know more about my job than what the 20 year instrutors have been teaching.

   Case in point. The water system was set up in 1964. The past administrations used the water to fund everything else and whenever something come up they said"We can figure it out." We didn't get chlorine safety equipment until 2001. The only reason we got it then was because your's truly had to make a scene in front of the new mayor(dep't head at a nearby chemical plant). The old timer politicos have held a grudge ever since.

   I was told when I started that the fire department(volunteer) handled the chlorine emergencies. The fire chief(police chief) was responsible for the training that the firefghters received. I accepted that, I was still new in the water business.

   I then started going to the required water classes and started finding out how things work,etc. Then I went to a chlorine safety class and was shocked. I said "Good Lord, we're all gonna die!" So I came back and started looking into things.

ME: We don't have any respirators. BOSS: Yes, we do. ME: Where? BOSS: In the shed. (It was a MSA mask approved by the Bureau of Mines 1966, it had a canister with a cloth patch on the inlet)

ME: Where is the chlorine repair kit? CHIEF: What do you mean? ME: The kit y'all use to repair leaking chlorine cylinders. CHIEF: They make something like that? ME: What do the EMT's do for a chlorine casualty? CHIEF: What the EMT school trained them to do. ME: Which is? CHIEF: I don't know, it's not my job.

   We now have a new mayor, new police chief, and a new water superintendent. I finally got the following: escape respirators at each plant, respirators on each truck, Scott air packs and a repair kit for cylinders.

   We sometimes have drills. The police are to close off the area from traffic, evac and that is all. But there is always one who will not read the emergency procedures(I made a bunch of copies with the help of the new chief and we put them in all the police, fire and water vehicles. One will always go there immediately when the call goes out and will pull up at the gate of the plant to see what the deal is. I like put on my air pack, get out of the truck and tell him he's dead.

   Had a fireman(police volunteer) at a drill once. He said when he was with a former volunteer department, they handled all the chlorine emergencies in that town. ME:"How many leaks have you worked on?" HIM: "None." ME: There's a leak in the chlorinator room, how will you handle it? HIM: We'll remove the door and soak the room with high pressure water. ME: The 150 lbs of chlorine that was in the cylinder is now 150 lbs of hydrochloric acid on the deck and you and your buddies are standing in it. HIM: Why? ME: Because water and chlorine make hydrocloric acid. HIM: They never taught us that. ME: That's why the water department will handle the chlorine.

   Sorry for the long story but the verticle yellow sripes made me think of it.

             LATER   Y'ALL


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 23:21:38 (ZULU)

Never mind.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 01:27:58 (ZULU)

I was thinking the very same thing!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 01:35:10 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad, I thought orthochlorobenzonitrile was a non-recreational one (CS). Hope there's room on that road, 'cause I'm running too.

We've got a hearty race here with a democrat leading. When he asks if I will vote for him, that's just what I'll say. "Well, then, FUCK 'IM! Don't give him none.". Also what Torsten's sister says about 'Lito now that she's found me.

Diaper heads, yeah. Mark, absolutely nada for predictions. I think it'll be a nice day. Armed and vigilant. Like Jim said, Sinclair. When in doubt (or you've got too much dough) - Sinclair.

Bri Insain, you're telling me that politicos would sell out their own men for any reason? You must be jesting sir. Please excuse the sarchasm.

Bolt hit it on the head. Good man.

Jaeger <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 01:44:29 (ZULU)

>>"Never mind."<<

Kevin, you should reconsider.

Rodeo Country - Dirty Steve, shame on you.  You need to learn to control what you blurt out when in the throes of passion!  BTW, I thought that was you over on battlerifles!

A couple of youz have mentioned my noticeable absence of late.  I developed a kidney problem about a month ago - blood in the urine crap.  Went to the doctor and he discovers I also have a double hernia!  Sends me off to the urologist for tests.  Also got a renal ultrasound and xrays.  Eventually passed a stone, too.  Talk about pain.  Ouch!

Monday the urologist gives me the final test.  Sticks a mini camera deal up Mr Weasle to check out the bladder.  I don't know how many of you have ever had this procedure done but I have never felt so vulnerable in my life as I did for those five minutes on the table!

After the camera/tube makes it into the bladder, the nurse released the saline solution.  Of course, I forgot everything the doc told me they were going to do and I thought I was peeing really bad.  So I start yelling for them to stop cause I think I'm peeing everywhere!

Doc, ever so calmly, reminds me that the solution is going IN to me, not coming OUT of me!  OOPS!  

Bladder is OK and the hernia operation is scheduled for next week, finally.  I'll be glad to get all this crap behind me soon.  Not fun!


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 03:47:23 (ZULU)

Moe, Yup that was me over there. Just asking questions. Congrats you gave birth. Aint been there, aint done that and you can keep ALL the t-shirts. Ouch. Glad this are looking better for you. You know if you wouldn't drink doubles you wouldn't have got a twice times hernia. They will need to kill me to put anything up my Mr Happy. They better put me out cause I aint gunna sit still for it.

Blaine, the story was too cool. It's stories like this that make me regret not being a Marine. The Army was ok, hell atleast I wasn't Air Force or Navy.

Bio I can deal with.. Nerve agents, sorry I will take my toys and go home and fight another day. But if in charge. I will just nuke who ever is most likely to blame. Cause I figgure they would do it if given the chance and the ones that actually did it will think long and hard about doing it again. Aw heck I would just nuke all of them and be done with it. Sounds bad but really it would probably be the best solution. Cause these folks aint gunna stop. I think they are like cancer. Either you kill it all or it grows back. I would run for Pres. but too many wild indiscretions in my youth. Up to age 30 that is..

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 06:23:02 (ZULU)


 Premier is back ordered on badger standard rings.  Who else sells them for their price or better?

 NBC...lovely stuff.  Knowledge is the only way to deal with it...except knowledge makes you want to not deal with it.  An attack on civies will be ugly as hell no matter how hard we train.  Now try to explain that to the masses.  Remember, these are the same pansies running around protesting global economics, the "evil" Isrealis and President Bush's "unjust" war on terrorism.  Muddle-headed, give peace a chance, save the (insert favorite environmental term here), dunces.  They view the world through their pampered existence and are victims of their inability to understand any culture other than their own.  Never been anywhere, but are experts on everywhere.  The bottom line is we are playing a very high stakes game of chance--one especially dangerous in a high payoff region (east or west coast).  We all know that this is coming, and we all know that until it does, half measures are all we are gonna take to prepare.  I may be cynical, but I truly hope that level heads prevail over heroism.  We are going to need the same people who would rush into the shit to help afterwards.  My biggest fear is that a chem/bio attack will hurt more of you guys in first responder jobs than it will the liberal asshole that hamstring your preparedness now!  So, for all you first responders...once the word is out, take time to prepare.  Yes, some will die for it, but you won't.  And your skills will be in demand for some time to come.  Kinda like triage for whole populations...helluva way to think, but what choice are we given?  If you do not have the gear, stay clear.  Another dead/ incapacitated guy ain't gonna help anyone.  And be ready mentally--some of those people in the zone will be your friends.  The psychological component is the most lethal aspect of this crap!  If nothing else, you can think about that now...and the mental preparedness is probably as good as stacks of gear and may be all you really have!

Rant over...joke time:

Three most dangerous things in the Army:

A Major who says, "hey, I got a great idea..."

A 2d Louie who says, "It's been my experience..."

And a Chief Warrant 4 on the controls who says, "Watch this shit..."

Joe M

Joe Mahon <>
Home, On leave, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 08:00:23 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell, Mark W., et. al.

The things you guys are talking about are real time issues for me (us) here in the rural settings as well. I'm a career FF/Paramedic who has the potential for transport times in excess of 30 to 40 minutes in some cases. My systems protocol allow for the stocking of my rig for 1 adult patient (as far as phamacology goes) yet they insist that we stock for 2 BLS patients. This is likely consistant with most agencies rural or otherwise. The absudity of this is not lost on you guys I'm sure.

Enter the newest complication. WMD.

My department is the only Career department between Albany NY and Binghamton (east to west). That's a distance of say 70+ miles in either direction from my station door. The same sort distances are pertinent north to south of us. Yes we are surrounded by volunteer EMS squads but depending on many factors, such as time of day, etc., the response and type of response is hit and miss out there. (THAT IS NOT A FLAME TO VOLUNTEERS!) Consequently my agency has found its self the areas only full time available HAZMAT response team. We spend a lot of time in WMD training lately and that has served to only hieghten our awareness of how ill prepared we and the 2 hospitals in our region are for something like a HAZ-whopper incident, terror related or not. Like your own agencies we are chasing the tail of preparedness and sometimes we catch up, only to find there is still more to learn, buy and practice.

The biggest issue that has come of all this is $$$$ COST! Go figure. Between the price of the truly usefull equipment and training. Real preparedness is questionable. Availability of things such as atropine and the 2-PAM in the facilities is just as you have said, minimal. Its a loie that there is funding out there for all this. Yes there ae grants and some funding but the community will bear the brunt of the cost, apropriatly so by the way.

Complacency has become our danger before and now after the 9/11 crimes.

The perfect example is: My city has been (for months now) planning a ceremony to commeorate the 9/11 tradgedy. A lot of money has been spent to erect a granite monument and all the other things (including the overtime costs for city employees, that will occur the day of the event) and all the miscellany. But when Monies were requested to send 4 people to the state fire academy for training to be HAZMAT/ WMD training instructors so we could spread the word to the surrounding agencies we were told no.

And so it goes.

Sorry for the "FF/EMS country" rant. I just found myself sitting here possibly drinking to much coffee this morning and reading the DR. Probably a bad combination.

Mark <>
Rural , Upstate NY, - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 13:22:22 (ZULU)

>>The bottom line is we are playing a very high stakes game of chance--one especially dangerous in a high payoff region (east or west coast).  We all know that this is coming, and we all know that until it does, half measures are all we are gonna take to prepare.<<

The reality of this situation as I see it is the Mid-East players are more than willing to the point of being highly motivated. The article that CDC posted the other day makes a good point that Hussein doesn't need a missile delivery system when he's got plenty of highly-motivated Palestinians fully prepared to die for their cause.

At some point and time, it's no longer going to be buses and shopping Malls In Israel being targeted with explosives, it'll be something more sinister and massively deadly and the thing of it is, it'll be so easy to do. As Dirty Steve stated, these idiots aren't going to stop and the only thing they're going to understand is multiple mushroom clouds in their own back yard. Bottom line? They want to take us out... and as soon as they're capable, they WILL try.

I was at the ER last night. It was a slow evening, lots of empty beds. Had a good visit with some of the nurses (good looking too I might add ;)) It reminded me of the scene in "Pearl Harbor" where the nurses there were almost bored to tears with a handful of patients and then.....Dec. 7, 1941.

Sooner or later, it is coming. We knew it back in 1941. We just didn't know where or when. I see it as being no different now.

Rant mode off.

Mark W    

Mark W <>
Got Mildots?, Texas, U.S. of A - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 13:37:20 (ZULU)

Jim M,

Oh and by the way, I don't know if you are trying to give Sain a run for his money on the humor thing but you're killing me with the yellow stripe litmus that the PD has on their careful Bro, there's a bunch of them Canaries rideing the DR. We don't want to give away any secrets now do we?

And you are very correct regarding who would show up and who wouldn't. The volunteers around here are pretty hard charging for the most part and do it cause they can not because the get a paycheck.

After 14 years on the job, I can't say that I would do it for free. Thats not a bad attitude, its just a honest, real feeling I get occasionally.

Mark <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 13:38:13 (ZULU)


Your joke made me remember something this 1st Lt said a couple months ago.  We were rehearsing patrolling and movement on contact.  My squad was rehearsing the ranger file and the aussie peel specifically.  Anyway, Lt. was saying that if we are in the file why doesn't pt man just snap shoot a double tap into his ass and keep on going?  My reply was "Well sir, there may be more than one of them and we are not here to make contact, this is a recon.  We are practicing BREAKING contact."  Then the argument went into a bunch of things and him ending up telling me that he could snap shoot a double tap into a point target out to 300 meters with a red dot sight.  HUH??  "No sir, you would need a few seconds at least to aim a bit, snap shooting a point target with a 16 out to 300 isn't going to happen."  Now I'm sure there are guys that do have this ability but not him or anybody else in our training unit.  I almost had a full blown argument with him but kept my mouth shut and let him have his day.  Oh I could go on about 2nd and even 1st Lt's.  No offense to any occifers here, all in the experience.


Nicholas Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 13:39:04 (ZULU)

Ref: WMD

We know it's not a question of if but when.  The trouble we have now is not unlike the trouble FDR had in '41.  There isn't the political will to wage war.  I know we are in A-stan.  I mean WAR.  You know the old fashioned holy shit kind of thing.  My guess is FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming and he decided to let the Japs sucker punch us so the American people would get really pissed and the political will would be there to do what needed doing.  Today we're rattling our sabers and our freinds around the world are telling us to "shhhhh".  Once we take a real kick in the balls and we bury 50,000 American voters there will be no holding back and our friends will either help or get the hell out of the way and we can take out the trash once and for all.  I'd give the arab governments an hour to pick sides then turn the keys in Omaha.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 14:00:14 (ZULU)


Next time try one of two things.

a)  Tell him to show you he can do it.

b)  Remind  him that the reason you are breaking contact is the some other sons of a bitches are already shooting at him.  

Most dangerous things to hear.

A Lt. using the phrase "Based on my experience"

A Warrant officer using the phrase, "Just watch this shit".


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 14:16:45 (ZULU)

Kevin, et al...

If we know the attack is coming, why can't we call "battle stations". My guys are well prepared and getting better all the time.  We have a decade head start, but catch-up is possible.

Funding for hazmat/NBC prep is EASY... the stuff you need is relatively CHEAP.  Quality training is hard to get, but can be done.  The National Fire Academy "ALS HazMat" 2 week 'intensive' course is SUPERB but hard to get into (they took me so they can't be too discerning)... I hear there is a ToxMed course in Tucson that is great as well...

Anyone in a real response capacity (including NG), contact me via email...I'm more than willing to share everything and anything I know.  I will verify your identity first.

I had hoped my humor on the "yellow stripe" was clearly understood.  I have attended police funerals, don't like em'.  I believe I would do just about anything within my power to prevent a brother responder from meeting an untimely fate.

Jim MItchell <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 14:29:21 (ZULU)

Hate to sound like a broken record, but weren't we discussing how unprepared and unmotivated we were just before the last time?

Amen on the 1st responder thing, Joe.  Sometimes you just have to hold off and save your strength for when it'll matter.  It doesn't pay to reinforce failure.  Pileing more people into a bad deal just gets them killed to no gain.  I predict it's going to be a bad thing to be living in a major urban area soon.  On the positive side, the nerve agents are not as easy to deliver as every one likes to think.  The Krauts calculated how much Sarin it would have taken to do Paris in WWII, it was something like 10K tons to get a lethal concentration to 50feet over the entire city and that was air delivered.  Yeah, a couple dozen pounds delivered point source could cause some serious problems, but I'd trade a couple hundred or thousand dead urbanites for the license to reshape the world with fusion weapons and no restraints.  Guess I'm just colder and harder than the average politician.  Of course, I told a guy at Pendleton last week that because he didn't bring enough water he was going to die on a hillside in the baking sun.  Got his attention and he'll never do it again, anyways.      

Pussies will always be pussies.  Unless you beat it out of them by the time they're 12 or so, you're stuck with them for life.  You can't change their feeble little minds, so you have to consider other alternatives.  Same with so many nasty humans like rapists, child abusers and terrorists.  Once it's set, it's almost impossible to change.  See where I'm going with this?  Hopefully the time is coming.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M    

Ken M <>
IL, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 14:38:31 (ZULU)

Joe, and Kent - LOL - too true.

Kevin (Andy's Dad) Unfortunately you are right.  Like the changes in the barometer - I feel something coming in my bones.  I hope it does not but if (when) I hope it wakes us up, Up here too.

Edited for spelling :(

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 14:40:22 (ZULU)

Nick, I like to approach those guys with "I have to see that.  NO saying you cant but man I will buy  you lunch to show me.  You must be good"  Even if he could before he wont with that kind of pressure on him unless he is really that good.  If he plays the I acnt right now then I like the "So how well do you shoot when your not dreaming?"

On the middle east.  Not much doubt we will be there fairly soon.

Working like a mad man on several projects. PT'ng like hell and my old butt is dragging.

Kevin Andys dad, you get the slings yet?

Lots of requests coming in for Desert Tan slings.  Wonder what they are for.LOL


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 14:51:31 (ZULU)

Ref: Slings

Roger that, I got the slings a couple days ago.  One will be going to Raton with us this Saturday.  Andy already has a cuff sling on his rig and won't give it up for love nor money.



Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 15:24:07 (ZULU)

Thought from the Army on 911..

10th mountains NY Trip..

On Police being prepared for Haz Mat stuff. In SA we are taught a simple rule of thumb when arriving on the scene. Hold your thumb at arms lenght and if you see anyone injured or chem leak. You are too close. That's why we have a Haz Mat team with kool gear. Also when responding be the first on the scene so you can take the up wind side of the area. If your on the down wind side you have your buddy hold out his thumb and stand behind him at arms length and you stand an arms length behind him, and the above rule applies ;)

On this MWD attack issue. I know its coming too, the average has been every three to five years between attacks. It may be sooner in retaliation or may be later due to disrupted organization. Who knows for sure, but know this, "It is coming." I just hope they get a largely liberal area next time(Hollywood, LA or Miami). Then we call all be on board for the long haul. Good thing about being a cop is.........Edited...... Let's just say we realize all deaths aren't bad. But if a good guy get shot in the leg, he will most likely die. If a PW (Peckerwood) gets shot, run over and caught on fire he will live. The useless all most all ways survive outside combat. In war Mr. Death aint picky, he takes all he can.

I need to load and go shoot. It relaxes me.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 15:26:17 (ZULU)


Thanks all those that answered my questions; your input was much appreciated.  All I need to do now is get hold of all the stuff and get over to Germany with the rilfe for Pete to have a go at restocking it (basically bedding and inletting).

Thanks again fellas.


Jon Beardsley <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 16:37:18 (ZULU)

Don't sweat the small pox vacination. When I'as a kid they gave it to all the little first and second graders. Once in a while somebody got a little sick but I never heard of a single case of somebody gettin sick enough to go to the hospital. Small pox would move faster today due to the way people move about but it's not a big problem if the vaccine is available to response and medical personell.

Bolt; you're right on with the HASMET BS.

Kevin;  You'll be happy to know I won't be at Whittington this weekend to bother you.... and I'll see that The Mountain Militia will let you pass (New Yawk tag you know). Good Luck with your shooting. It was dry as hell out there last weekend. Take an extra canteen.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 18:08:15 (ZULU)

Got this off Drudge.  An Israeli source reports that our brass said that we will hit Sadaam in November.  He also said that it's only our first step.  It's no wonder the Mid-East governments are against this.  We're shaking their trees.  Forget what the major media are trying to feed you, support for this is around 69%:

CDC' <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 18:22:13 (ZULU)

Hey Guys,

OK, so I finally got most of the beans together to complete my upgrade to a Loopie LR M3/Badger hardware (Max 50 rings and 20moa one piece base).  Now, up until now I've always had my 'smith mount my scopes etc. (I know, I know)  Well, I've decided to "get a pair" and do it myself.  Now, what equipment/tools (wrenches, loc-tite, etc.) will I need, and just how do I go about doing this?  I really don't want to screw it up so the more "in depth" the more betterer.

Thanks guys,


BTW, depending on the replies, it might be a good thing to put in the "How To's" section.  Just a thought.

Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 19:02:15 (ZULU)

I was wondering if anyone out there has used or owns a Wilson Combat KZ-45.  If so how is the accuracy and has it ever malfunctioned.  Also since it holds 11 rounds is the grip really the same as a standard 1911.  This gun sole purpose will be for carrying.  Thanks for the help.

Todd <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 19:21:35 (ZULU)


I'm going away for a week, starting tomorrow just after lunch, and will only be back next week.

Soooo, please don't break the place, and call on poor ole' Ken again with all you problems :-)

I am slowly catching up with the backlog of things to do in my mailbox, but of course this week will pile up some more again... :-(  But, I promise that one day I'll be back on track, just don't know when that'll be!

Take care


Marius <>
- Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 20:33:45 (ZULU)

TEST. Just got my Password.

SFC Pete Carpentier jr TXNG <>
C.C., TX, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 20:42:59 (ZULU)

Gooch I see that you are still posting. I have had several talks with CPT. Huskey and said you have been busy getting your business going. I also read your article in the lastest Police Marksman. Hey drop me a line. Would like to hear from you.

SFC Carpentier jr TXNG <>
C.C, TX, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 20:51:36 (ZULU)


Well, school has started again and it seems that our socialist "educators" have put our kids another step towards socialism and have been doing their damnest to hide it from the parents, guardians, and the general public!!

It turns out that our local school system, School District 51, in Mesa County, Colorado has been instituting a form of forced collectivism on our elementary school students. The parents are given a list of minium requirments for school supplies that the child must bring with him/her when starting school every year. Some parents can only afford the bare bones essentials, while others allow the kids to splurge a little and go a bit more extravagant, or maybe it's because they only want to fight the WalMart school supplies department but once a year.

However, upon arriving to class, the individuals supplies are confiscated by the "educator" and placed in a common pool, for the whole class to use. No choices, no nothing. This is claimed to "teach the children to share" and to help those whos' parents cannot afford to buy school supplies for their kids! I wonder how many sixpacks they would have to sacrifice to see to it that their kids had pens and paper. Besides, the Social Services Dept. would provide the kids what they need if their parents truly couldn't afford it. Parents have suggested that they would start a fund to provided the needed supplies  for these kids on their own. So far nothing but liberal spin from the School Board.

When this socialist practice was discovered (yesterday), An angry grandparent contacted the Neil Bortz radio program and is scheduled to appear soon. An angry father took his complaint to the Hannerty show and will shortly be a guest.A School Board meeting is scheduled tonight, but I look for a rubber stamping of the School District policy!

Guy's, if you've got kids in this NEA controlled type of system you'd better check it out for yourselves, then do something about it! I know that if any NEA Commie ever removed any rightful posession from my kid it would surely be the last time. It's hard to grab things, even from kids, when all you've got is two bloody stumps.

The only thing that these "educators" are promoting is a generation of sissies and wimps. What's it gonna be next? "Gimme your chocolate brownie - all I got in my lunch sack is a lemon drop". How 'bout "I want your Nikes - All I got's is some worn out Keds". Please think about this.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 22:59:40 (ZULU)


   It's a great excuse for not doing for one's self. Why should I get for myself, I'll just use yours.

   What makes sharing special is that it is done out of generosity. Being forced to do it isn't sharing, it's complying.

   I guess that school has it's own welfare system. BTW, I heared that welfare benefits are called "entitlements" now.


   I need some recommendations/experiences in chronographs. Gonna buy one, but don't know which one.

                LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 23:45:16 (ZULU)

Collectivization Of School Supplies:

As somebody that is about to go into the classroom as a first year teacher(and a somewhat reluctant NEA member), let be bounce a few thoughts off of y'all, some considerations you might not have allowed.

First, yeah, I am with you on the slack-ass parent thing. They are certainly out there, the negligence of whom often extends far beyond the lack of will to buy a pack of notebook paper. However, as educators you have to try and teach their kids anyway, regardless of what you might think of the households that produced them. And the reality is, if you are paid to teach them and they need supply X for you to teach them, you as as teacher do what you can to scrounge up the needed supplies to get things off to a good start with a minimum of problems, despite the fact that you are specificaly not budgeted to do so. And so, a lot of teachers buy stuff like that out of pocket, which is hardly fair, either.

I saw precicly the same thing happen during my student teaching last fall and spring, the only difference being the teachers at my school were not nearly STUPID enough to announce it from the rooftops. They just took the stuff, checked off that box in the kids paper work and put it all in a file cabinet. Then they doled it out as needed over the year, not worrying about the relative handfull that put nothing in the pot. When you have a kid from a family that is that slack about looking out for their kids wellfare, you have to pick your battles carefully. There's no need to alienate them the first week over $2 worth of ring binders. You will need that capital when you have to fight them over the kids first F in your class. Assuming they care.

Jerry in MN:

Thanks for the info on the action screws. Off to the hardware store...


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Kackylacky, US of Freakin' A, Buddy! - Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 23:54:49 (ZULU)

The supply list for the elemantry that my daughter goes to includes two of everything.  It's obvious what it's for and how they do it. They list the items all the way to the brand.  I don't sweat it too much though, as the alternative is the bastards raising my land taxes again.  I teach my daughter  about the difference between the socialist society of her school, and how it doesn't mesh with the totalitarism of homelife.  She gets it, but at 7 doesn't quite understand why Daddys so srict. Oh,, and we have a standing rule.... If ANYONE askes about guns in our home,,, We ain't got none.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 00:06:40 (ZULU)

Regarding the socialization of kids' school supplies:

Wisconsin State Statute

943.20 Theft

(1) (a)  Intentionally takes and carries away, uses, transfers, conceals, or retains possession of movable property of another without the other's consent and with intent to deprive the owner permanently of possession of such property.

You can bet your sweet a** I'd press charges against any teacher to the fullest possible extent of the law, with extreme prejudice, for stealing so much as a sheet of paper from any child of mine - and that is precisely what this is - stealing.

Michael A. Litscher <>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 01:21:16 (ZULU)

School Supplies:

Fine. You can bring criminal charges against the teacher if you care to. However, last time I checked there was a national shortage of people who will put up with the crap associated with the job, not a surplus. And all this over a few bucks worth of filler paper and sharpened #2 pencils. Tsk.

And in the meantime, the teacher (assuming he/she is out on bond and has not been suspended, because in many locales it would be next to impossible to replace them on short notice) will have to drag around the kid with no supplies as he/she attempts to meet state curricular standards, and the education of all in the class will suffer. We have already established that the parent(s) of the child in question has(have) a questionable commitment to their childs education. Is this the case here as well? I would think not.

Look, I don't pretend that it is the ideal soluton. I am just trying to put it to you from the teachers point of view. They have to try and make things work as best they can in an imperfect world, with limited resources and in a politicized environment that is bizzare on a good day and where a lot of people talk a good game but dont walk the walk when it comes to looking out for the best interests of the people they are charged with caring for. Sound familiar, LE/EMS/Fire people?


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Kackylacky, US of Freakin' A, Buddy! - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 01:54:05 (ZULU)


If the parents don't teach 'em, the teachers will try.

If they can't get through to 'em, I get 'em.

If I can't get through to 'em, Wes gets em.

Starts at home.


brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 02:29:27 (ZULU)

Well I just got a neat suprise from my better half....a brand new Starlight case arrived yesterday AM which was a treat to my bugged out eyes.  she said it was a gift to go with the rifle I'm getting built.  I think I'll keep her =)

The yellow stipe on the pants thing was a great bit..that had me rolling.  We don't wear stiped pants here so the FD/EMS types use the rule of coffee.  If they see we've abandoned or spilled our designer coffee bad things must be ahead.

Hey did someone mention a 1903 Mk1.  I have one of those I got at an estate sale years ago.  Somebody did a great job sporterizing it, Monte Carlo stock, national match front sight, Williams rear sight, drilled/tapped for a scope, and the finish (blueing and wood) are beautiful.  All I did was bed it and it's as good a shooter as any of my "hunting" guns.  I have a thing for 03's anyway so this is my baby.    

Practiced the service rifle today.  Either this seems to be getting harder or I'm not getting any better.  I broke out my M1A NM today for the first time in a while.  I had forgot how well it shoots...I may be going back to the "big" caliber.  Is there a service rifle shot the MD's can give me to help this offhand thing...Aghhh!

Stay safe all,

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, Cali, US of A - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 02:33:44 (ZULU)

Alan I deleted this post. Too contraversal for SC. I'll mail you offline.

Brogers < >
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 02:33:54 (ZULU)

Tom; I have a name for it. "The Robin Hood Principal". OR is it just plain old Socialism?  Perhaps?

Brogers < >
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 02:49:54 (ZULU)

Question for the knowledgeble ( I'll ask here anyway)

Best civilian NBC rated mask?  Draeger M65?

We now return to criminal educators and school supplies.......should be a conspiracy with wally world  in there  if ya dig deep enough.........

Mike in Texas <>
Texas, - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 04:01:52 (ZULU)


soˇcialˇism   n.

1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

Now, you can get all hot and bothered about a teacher appropriating a pack of mailla folders and some Sharpies and spliting them up amongst the kids and equate this with one the great (if deeply flawed) sociopolitical ideas of the past 150 years, but I think that is a bit grandiose. Again, I think the teachers handled it stupidly, but this is actualy a very common occurrence, and one that keeps the machinery of the classroom working a great deal smoohter.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Cackylacky, US of Freakin' A, Buddy! - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 04:13:22 (ZULU)


    I think that I hear what you're saying, and understand fully the circumstances that you relate to. However, the unique situation that we seem to be in has lead me to question the motives of the individuals responsible for this situation. Here's why:

     The School District recieves a higher than average share of the State's budget because this is one of the more affluent counties per capita in the State.

     When the District asks the taxpayers for an increase in the mil levy for more money to operate the schools the voters ALWAYS approve.

     No lack of teachers here! There is a five year waiting list for teaching position applicants, and it has been said privately that in order for a new teacher to get hired more quickly than that, it requires that they perform several years of "volunteer" work in the schools.

     The proportion of 'haves' is much greater than the 'have nots' in this District, and the more affluent parents have already offered to set up a pool of school-necessary resources so that kids who need help get it, and have been turned down by the administration.

     Each teacher gets an additional stipend of $180 per semester, specifically for purchasing school supplies without having to go through the traditional 'red tape'.

     This is not an educationally weak school system. One student placed third in the National Spelling Bee in DC last year. One local high school team won top place in the National Knowledge Bowl for the fourth year in a row, and a high school science student just was awarded the prize (in Europe) for most promising young science student in the World. Sort of a junior Nobel Prize. Not bad atheletically either. Our local high school three-peated last year as State Champs.

     No, I'm convinced that this particular action is a blatant exercise in collectivism and 'feel good-ism' along with a little bit of the old 'raising self esteem' thrown in.

     Y'know, come to think of it, the ol' ladies car's been givin' her some trouble and I just can't afford to buy her a new one right now. I think I'll mosey on over to the teachers parking lot, and when I see one getting into a nice new SUV, I'll just take the sumbich. Wouldn't want me to feel bad, would'ya?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 04:18:34 (ZULU)

OK, while I know this isn't Belt-fed Country, this Shrike design is certainly neat, and has a lot of potential I think [new belt fed designs haven't been too common lately] :

There's an AR .223 upper receiver assembly that looks like the closest thing to a SAW / M-249 conversion that I have seen.  It is available in semi or full auto [full will only work on milspec M-16/M-4 type guns], and pre or post ban.

Just in case y'all hadn't heard about it . . . more info is available at the following web sites :

etc.  I have a friend who has already shelled out the $1000 deposit for one; several others are thinking about it.  Last day to buy is "postmarked by Saturday" so if you think you might want one, you ought to at least check out their web page (click my name below).

Ares has said that the Shrike 5.56 will feed from either AR15/M16 magazines or M27 linked ammunition (these are the standard belt fed .223 NATO links), and they will offer optional accessory items such as bipods, tripod adaptors, spare barrels, SAW ammo box adaptors, flip-up sights, etc. at time of delivery, which should be by March 1, 2003.

Total cost on the unit is about $2500, and while that seems high to many, I think it's quite reasonable, considering what even a post-86 dealer sample Minimi goes for.

I'm not making a penny on this, just thought it was pretty interesting, and if reliable would be light and useful to our troops in the coming months.

[edited 3 times now to add detail and correct spelling; time for bed!]

Best, John

John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S.A. - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 05:10:12 (ZULU)

On Socailism in school. MRs Bush of old Preached, Just Say NO> If your kids teacher pulls this you call her and say give my child his/her stuff back. I am raising and supporting my children not everyone elses. If she fails to comply tell her you will file chages, and complain to the school board and write the new papers.

It's easier for me to hate everyone and make exceptions on a case by case basis. I am sick of liberals and wont take any more crap. We had an officer see a drug deal, chase the bad guy. He then got his nose broke by the PW. PW ran again and was caught again. While the officer was cuffing the jackass he had two folks jump him. The news is making a big deal over the officer knocking him to the ground and putting him in "good custody". They are not outrage the other citizens attacked a public servant. Whoa be it some one hit me from this day forward. I'm done being nice and treating everyone better than they should be. From now on any one touching me goes to the Casa Grande by way of the Horsepistol... The PW told some informants that they are gunna jump an officer in the courts. I wish I worked that area. Hell Id bring my lunch and eat it on the bus stop and stay there the whole shift... Im done ranting, for now..

Pete C, Welcome back, I assume you have been posting here before I came on board. Acually my memory is short and you could have been posting all a long. I have seen your name on other sites. SP and Badland I believe. Any who, Welcome.

I have decided to buy a Springfield 2nd Gen for my M1A. I will buy another Loopie when I get my flat top AR. All I currently own are Loopies, well I have one $99 Simmons. That dont count as a scope. After I get it and shoot it a while I will let you all know how it shapes up.

A tired Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 06:02:38 (ZULU)


 Did baseball strike?  I haven't cared since they screwed my outta the world series the last time around in '94...

 On schools:  I just found out that they "share" here in Wisconsin schools, too.  Doesn't bother me in the least.  My little ruggus ratti are natural captalists.  They won't share shit voluntarily, even among siblings.  They each accumulate wealth by stashing their favorite toys where the other can't find it (but they always do, and the fights are on).  So, the teacher wants to do some feel good socalism?  Great, my kids need a challenging business environment to "take it to the next level."  The proudest day of my life will be the day one of my kids corners the market on green crayons.  I cannot wait til I bust out my economics degree on some unsuspecting socialist.  Heehee.  

Philosophy 101:

I listen to NPR (National Public Radio) for an hour or so a day.  Don't shoot!  I just want to "know thy enemy."  It gets my blood pressure up there sometimes.  Today, some numbnuts were arguing against unilateral action by the US.  They all had one or two highly emotional points and anologies.  They all were equally flawed arguements, but summated the position against.  I started to wonder how these opinions could possibly be formed?  Cultural ignorance is part of it, stupidity has a role, then it hit me:  I was doing something that most people won't--I was actively seeking the opposite point of view.  I think most people seek info that reinforces rather than challenges their worldviews.  When they form an opinion, they seek info insofar as it lends credence to their initial belief.  Like that idiot who said Pres. Reagan invented "inflating Soviet capabilities" for political purposes.  He belived this because it fit his pre-determined outcome:  Conservatives are bad..  The flaw?  Kennedy used the "missile gap" to make the Eisenhower Admin look soft on defense to thus label Nixon, his opponent, as soft!  Ha.  Common theme was a "half truth" stated as an outright lie.  I used to think this was intentionally done, now I believe it is just a product of intellectual laziness.  The scary part is I am guilty of seizing info that fits my theories, while ignoring challenges.  NPR, try it some time...but watch your bloodpressure.  


Joe Mahon <>
Eau Claire, WI, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 06:07:29 (ZULU)

Thanks to all that responded to my question about the legal aspects of carrying my own rifle for LE sniper duty use.  Boss man made up his own mind and decided to let me use it before I had a chance to try and convince him.

Now my next question.  I have been tasked with training a new spotter and my Department wants to outfit him with an AR-15 and some type of intermidiate sighting system.  I recomended the ACOG sight, but they saw the price and wanted me to come up with alternatives.  That was my only choice.  Anybody got any other ideas.  

Oh, and to the jerk-off that sent me the computer virus and masked the sender as snipercountry,  it didn't work.  I saw through it and deleted it.  I am sure you will try again with this post, but I will delete it also, so PISS OFF!

CR <>
PC, Ok, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 07:56:55 (ZULU)

We have some guys locally working on belt fed AR-15's.  I haven't seen a prototype yet,, but this one is interesting.  I would like to know how (if ) they change hot barrels though.  That looks like the old M60 design and would require a gloved hand to replace that hot bass turd.  My bet is the weight saving isn't great enough over the SAW to justify it,, and why mount it on a tripod?  

It's an interesting concept non the less, but what advantage would it have over a heavy barrel M-16 with a beta mag?


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 11:24:16 (ZULU)

Tom; it's about a lot more than a few pencils and notebooks. It can't be disguised as a needy project when things like this are mandated and forced by Federal Funds. Most people are totally ignorant of the facts that drive this program and so many others like it. I'm sorry but I'm on my 5th year of listening to justification of this and teachers who've been preyed upon by Liberal AH's high up in the NEA by sympathizing with their salary complaints and blaming it on the taxpayer for their own failures and excesses. I apologize for the starving pigmy's LOrd but this stuff if mandated communism. Give me the definition for that if you will.

This is not subject for SC, so before I get in deep shit with the board and subject police... again. I better drop it.

Brogers < >
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 12:29:11 (ZULU)

'Yotebait - Sounds like an OK subject to me and I don't believe you're off the mark at all.

Dirty Steve - I honestly don't know why people get and stay in law enforcement.  When you see the crap that goes on and the way you guys are vilified by the bleeding heart liberals - I don't think I could do it.  I have friends who are on the job and I see their frustration.  I give all you guys a great deal of credit for being able to persevere in spite of the sh*t you get.  We would all be in deep poo poo if you didn't.

Brian Sain - DAMN! - you guys from Texas have a way of boiling down an issue to its essence.  I don't think I've ever seen it said better.

Joe Mahon - I couldn't agree more.  I will listen to liberal radio shows to find out what the latest lies are that they're spewing.  The only thing that amazes me is that I have'nt "offed" any radios to date.  But I have to admit, people tend to give you a wide berth when you're in your car screaming at the radio at the top of your lungs.

Maybe we should have the same type of mandated military service that some countries have.  A few years of that should be able to instill some respect for authority and a sense of what this country is really all about.  Might even make a conservative out of some liberals once they see the "real world"


Nick Anzano <>
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 13:33:30 (ZULU)

OK guys the virus terds are at it again! I've gotten no less tha 12 infected e-mails in the last 2 days alone, NONE got through!!! Thank goodness for Norton!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 13:52:36 (ZULU)

2-PAM is probably carried by more veterinarians than MDs.  Organophosphate poisioning in dogs is taught in every toxicology and pharmacology course in vet school.

adam wiechmann <>
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 14:45:04 (ZULU)

the cure to malignant liberalism - "Starship Troopers" / Robert Heinlien (the book, not the movie)...simple concept, if you haven't served in the military, you may not vote.

NPR - I listen every day during my 1 hr commute.  Joe hit it on the head, great insight at times... real dull other times.

Masks for NBC - Look into purchasing a surplus fire service mask.. Scott, MSA, Survivair, etc... they are all good.  You can then buy the relatively cheap adapter to take standard filters...Many fire departments sell off all of their old equipment when upgraded "packs" are fire department has about 20 Scott 2.2 1/2 hour SCBAs going up for auction in the next couple months (currently stuck in paperwork delays).

I'm not familiar with all of these models, so confirm the adapter is available through your local fire equipment supplier (look in the yellow pages) before you buy.  Note - I have used the survivair, MSA and Scott masks and like the "Scott-O-Vista" mask that comes with thier model 2.2 and 4.5 the best... no examples on ebay right now, but I KNOW there are tons of em' surplus in the north eastern US, they are very popular with local FDs. Come to think of it, just about every active duty firefighter is an expert on what works and what doesn't when it comes to breathing masks...ask your local guys.

I find almost all of the "dedicated" biochem/tactical masks to be gigantic pieces of crap, including the MSA 1000 hunk of junk that is reviewed as "the best".... it is VERY HARD to get a good seal...not a good characteristic for a piece of equipment that your life might depend on. Low bid P.O.S.!

Jim Mitchell <>
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 15:05:51 (ZULU)

CR, Get used to the Virus stuff. We get them all the time with other posters email addresses on it. Thier attempts are transparent so if it dont look right it aint.

Nick, We do it because we actually do try to make a diffrence to at least one person a day. Either buy helping with a problem or kicking them so hard in the butt that they will be wearing it as a hat. Heck I was in the Army for ten years I'm not good for anything else. They pay me to carry a gun and occasionally get shot at, same thing as when I was in the Army but less travel and better pay.

Jim, No Service, No vote gets my approval. Please start a petition to send to congress and I'll sign. Heck I would be happy if you just had to hold steady employment for a year. Layoffs don't count against you. Quiting (because you don't want to work that is) and getting fired do.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 16:04:39 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon,

          I'm truly glad that your kids are on the way to becoming sucessful entrepeneurs! And so they should be, if that's their desire. However, what's going on in this school system is happening to Kindergarden and first-graders. These kids have yet to develop strong opinions, let alone a strong sense of who they are. With kids this young, good parents usually tell them things such as "always mind the teacher", "always obey and respect responsible adults in a school environment", and "your teacher will take care of and protect you and knows what's right or wrong". Now, they're being brainwashed into social collectivism before they even have a chance to develop the social skills to interact with other kids in this forced situation. These kids are very impressionable at this age, so hoarding and/or objecting to giving away what belongs to them will only single them out in front of their more compliant classmates and may cause them to become objects of scorn and derision. Instead, they should be taught and encouraged to share with others according to their needs, and only when they feel that they should. Not when the NEA-Liberal Left-United Nations-Sharing Police masquerading as Educators order them to.


       When my neighbor is temporarily running a few more head of livestock than his pasture can handle, I voluntarily share my pasture with him if I have spare space. Not because we're friends, and not because the Sharing Police force me to. I do it because it's the right thing to do and only for that reason! That kind of thinking cannot be taught by enforcing a Communistic redistribution of wealth ideal. Look what's happening in Zimbabwe to see the end result of that! That's it for me on this subject for now.


   The powers that be won't supply you with an ACOG, which sounds like the ideal scope for your situation (I've had a TA01NSN for over three years - it's great). Tell them that all Tasco's are on sale right now, or they can always find a Simmons on sale at WallyWorld for their $39.95 or whatever. Then just ask them all to sign a requisition for it, under where you state your recommendations, and why. Make sure to keep a copy for yourself. Then offer their opponents free copies at the next election. I know, I know, wishful thinking. Good luck anyway!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 16:09:30 (ZULU)


> I would like to know how (if ) they change hot barrels though.  That looks like the old M60 design and would require a gloved hand to replace that hot bass turd.

I've heard it's supposed to be changeable w/o gloves, and it was meant to have at least one spare with it for those high-speed folks (not me!)

> My bet is the weight saving isn't great enough over the SAW to justify it,, and why mount it on a tripod?

It's 10 lbs. lighter.  I'd say it is, but that's just my opinion; I get the first 200 rd. box for free!

The tripod is useless for some things (mounted, I'd rather have a 240 :) but could be useful for some things, I imagine.  Those poor souls who've never gotten to walk fire by T&E have missed out <heh>

I would get a good bipod for it if I got one, though.

> But what advantage would it have over a heavy barrel M-16 with a beta mag?

Having used that combination a bit, I'd much prefer [for auto] a belt fed.  Also, a select fire rifle upper is not the same as an open bolt LMG, which you can appreciate.  One of the few things I hate about the -16 design is the potential to get a round or case stuck up over the bolt; what a pain, and you're done with that fight.  A top cover can be cleared a lot easier.

But OK, you got me : for semi auto (it uses a closed bolt config only for that) it doesn't make much difference vs. the setup you mention.  I do luckily have a couple friends who are C3 dealers who are almost sure to snatch this up.

Doc has gotten to see a few of the toys that make it to our local range; unfortunately, lots of our C3 folks were out of town that day, so there weren't that many folks there :(

Best, John

John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 16:20:22 (ZULU)

Tom (krowbar):

 I am digging for the info you requested--I will email you the manufacturer info soon as I find it.  I am still livin' outta boxes, and I cannot find anything--especially paperwork.  Never buy a house from "family" unless their new house is already built!  But, the price was right...:))


 I agree that I've (and others) "digressed" off topic--but it does all relate in a very round-about way.  The Libs will try to limit/ eliminate our right to gun ownership, and therefore, understanding them is essential to combating them.  NPR Post!  This issue also has surfaced in our schools--my son also had one of those questionaires that asked how many guns were in the house.  It was disguised as a "home safety" test.  He answered "none" per prior training.  So school issue posts relate as well.  Though we reach far and wide here, the issue goes back to the second ammendment or operational environments (NBC) ultimately.  Sometimes, you have to think hard as to how our ramblings apply though.  I know I am challenged by this sometimes--asking how does this relate???  Basically, I've figured that if anything concerns anyone on this site, it relates...Directly or indirectly.  And CDCs posts are always on the edge of predicting the future--good intel that he finds on the net.  The early-bird doesn't always catch some of these gems.

Question:  What is the best program for ballsitics/ reloading on the market?  I would be interested in one that attempts to predict pressures of load data (charge/ bullet / velocity/ barrel length / weather--all of which I can measure).  About five months back, a program was featured in gun-mag that did a bunch of calculations, including cant deviations--POI based on angle/load data.  I just cant find the article again.  Anyone have a suggestion on a program or the make/ model of the one I saw?  

Joe M.  

Joe Mahon <>
On Leave, Babysittin', USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 16:24:33 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

            I really hope that you were kidding on that year of steady employment or no vote comment.I REALLY hope so!!!

            After serving in the Air Force for six years with two combat tours and two Purple Hearts (and no derision from you ground pounders. Gimme a buck for every time I heard AIR SUPPORT! - AIR SUPPORT! from some leg down there)and then working my butt off for 30+ years and paying my taxes so I could retire early five years ago I consider that a slap in the face.

            Please reconsider your standards. At 56yrs. of age, after putting in my time, and having the luck to have the sucess to retire at a young age, I figure I've paid my dues. Let's see how you feel when and if you make it this far.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 16:27:35 (ZULU)


 What is the latest word on the Canadian Airborne?  Are they seriously disbanding this?  This would be another example of incomplete analysis by liberal feel-gooders.  The cutting edge units train your best leaders...axing this capability will do more harm inadvertantly just to "show how nice we've become."  How very short-sighted...

(Shameless recruiting pitch):

 On the other hand, the US Army is assessing initial-entry into Special Forces once again.  SOCOM is approaching this with an eye on the failures of the past.  There is now a very strict screening process combined with a training program beyond basic/ AIT prior to SFAS.  This time, it just might work--so long as the need for "bodies" is kept in check.  I am thinking that if Canada axes their elite; the US SF community offers an option to these guys.  From my detailed research, these paratroopers are eligible for SF enlistments in the US!  And, IMHO, prior service paratroopers are better candidates than the college boys we are signing up now...In fact, I steer most applicants into the Ranger Regiment for "experience" first.  Rick, you should appreciate this.  Looking back, as a SSG with 5 years service at 22 years of age, I was too immature professionally at first for Spec-ops; and as such I was more a liability to my team than an asset.  Thanks Kevin Williams for all your patience and ass-whuppins'!  But Group needs experienced hands...maybe the Paras of the great white north can fill this for thought, northern brothers!  As for my team--we are mission complete and way out front nationally.  I have the flexibility to take my time and work the "hard" issues.  Not so for most recruiters!  Email me for details if interested...

**Baseball ain't strikin' this year** Go Twins!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 16:55:28 (ZULU)

'yote Bate...

>"Tom; I have a name for it. "The Robin Hood Principal". OR is it just plain old Socialism?  Perhaps? "<

"Socialism"... the act of a crooked government who takes the property (real estate and monies) from the educated, the productive, and those that are a threat to the existance of that socialist government... and dribble it out the the uneducated (who remain uneducated), in order to purchase their votes, to keep that crooked socialist government in power.

"The Robin Hood Principal"... the act of the people of a nation when they attack (by force and treachery) the government in power, and it's agents...  and TAKE BACK the ill stollen property (aka taxes and real estate), and return the properties back to the victims of the crooked government.

Socialism (and it's corrupt siblings) are the precurser of Robin Hoodism!

Viva Robin Hood!!



Socialism doesn't happen over a single weekend... the first step is to get the children to accept the basic concepts in small ways.

We have done that in this country... it started in the 60's (though some may argue that the seeds were planted in the 40's)... the idea that the government knows what's good for you... that the government can protect you from yourself... that the government is the source of economic "goodness"... that the government can solve all problems... that the government will protect you from all "badness"... that the government can "create jobs"... that you are helpless without the government's protection... that you only need so much, and anymore is the "excess of the rich" and wrong.

Listen to the news, and the media... you will hear these concepts spouted everyday, and excepted by the public .

We have Johnson to thank for this crap.  The biggest, and most sucessful socialist of them all.

If we removed the ability of the government to take our money, and then dribble it back to us in exchange for votes, the democratic party would disappear in a year... and the minorities would get a good education, because capitalism needs the skilled labor.



What you said!!!  When you're in the school's parking lot, pick out a Hummer for me, while your at it ;))

Zimbabwe... under Capitalism, all were fat and happy, and they exported food... under Communism, they are starving, and the people that are capable of solving the problem are leaving in droves!


Brian Sain...

Double DAMN!  You said a mouth full.  Proud to have you as a fellow Texican (even if you work in the "sewer" ;)



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 17:01:32 (ZULU)

Joe, The Airborne Reg't got the axe in March of '95.  Since then there have been Para Companies in our Light Infantry Battalions.  They have been scrapped (on paper) repeatedly - but each time something comes up where they are required.  Just before A'stan they had intended to disband the light infantry battalions - as they had "no role" and use the pers to fill out the mech BN's.

Since then there has been more interest in light / SF capable units - and the idea is to setup Ranger style Bn's up here which are SF capable and also extent the Green Capabilites of the JTF.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 17:05:41 (ZULU)

Allen, I'm sending you an email. But for all concerned. I meant my comment to apply to those who refuse to work till retirement, or serve thier country. Not to degrade or slap the fcae of decent folks, like those that post here. Just the Bums I meet on the job. I started ranting and don't want to waste the bandwidth.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 17:13:26 (ZULU)

School Collectivism:

I'm catching up on my reading on the DR and just took all of this in rather quickly, so my jets are still too hot to touch.

That said- You have got to be f***ing kidding me!! Take my kids stuff that I bought for his/her education with the money I earned at a job I took to support MY family(children) with the BEST I could AFFORD for them so the Teacher, whom I trust with my child’s well-being, can TAKE it and spread it around for everyone ELSES kids to benefit from...

I don't F***ING think so!!!

That was my first thought- now that I've had a chance to think about it...

I STILL don't F***ING think so!

Tom Simpson:

I'm not going to try to label it, I don't have to. It's wrong-I know it, you know it, we all know it. Stop trying to defend it.

If these kids need this stuff, and I mean their parents HONESTLY can't provide it for them, I would, and I bet a lot of others, gladly be willing help to provide for them, but the key word here is willing!

I think you'd be surprised at the generosity people are capable of when it's of their own free will, and their averse when it's forced or found out to be hidden.


- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 17:26:07 (ZULU)


 I agree with you.  There was a program at office depot in NC where you buy school supplies for teachers--I did this because it sounded reasonable.  My tongue in cheek reply about it not bothering me was more that I have bigger fish to fry right now--and this socialist issue was under my radar.  But, in true form, you all have pointed out big gaps in my assessment.  The catch is: This is done surreptitiously without parental consent.  This alone should alarm me.  No other effort is made to get supplies.  This is an agenda item, plain and simple.  That is BS in "our" tax-supported schools.  And it is happening here in my new home state.  Unacceptable.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, US - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 18:01:59 (ZULU)


So after I posted my scope mounting request, I looked in the "hot tips" section and found a whole bunch o' stuff there.  So I apologize for not looking there first.  Anyhoo, Marty was so kind as to e-mail detailed instructions.  Now I was wondering, have any of youse used the Craftsman torque wrench?  It looks like its more versatile ( I could use it for the rings, base and action).  Any thoughts?  I know th Seeconk is supposed to be better, but it's limited to the 65in/lbs only right?

thanks again,


RichS. <>
Bal'mer, - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 18:13:01 (ZULU)

Now that I've had time to lower my BP, a happy note: (for me anyway)

Just got my former PSS rifle back from George- better than I expected, no wait, even better than that. Let's just say I'm very pleased. This rifle is no longer a POS, uh-ehr... I mean PSS.

Next project is the glass. I'm very happy with my T-A-S-C-O ss16x42, but I do realize its limitations. I sometimes get the impression that some of you guys buy high dollar scopes like a woman buys shoes. "That looks nice- This ones got a neat feature- My other three are old- I wore this one to the last match." Anyway, If a guy was as poor as I am, and wanted just one scope for his one good rifle (for now) and had the time to save the dough...(does everyone see the question mark coming)... can I go wrong with a loopy? Why would I buy anything lower on the list than a Mk4? I know the VariXII and III through use on hunting rifles (sporting goods store stuff), But I know nothing of the quality of the rest of the line- Tactical, Long Range, etc... Not to mention all the other brands out there- This is not going to be an easy decision. All advice appreciated.  Thanks

P.S.- My 4yr. old started k4 at a PRIVATE school earlier this week. No socialists allowed.


- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 19:08:29 (ZULU)

Todd, that's an easy one for me.  Most of my guns wear, or will wear, the Gen2 version of the (VarX-III 3.5x10x40) M3LR.  M3LR works great for field use for me, and is fine for hunting, for what I do.

If you expect it to be a match-only rifle for F-class, etc. then you might choose a little differently.  I shoot F-class w/ the normal M3LR though; didn't want the fine graduations in the M1LR, but that was my other choice.

I actually prefer the M3LR to the Mk4-M3, since I like the collars on the LR better, and the variable power.  I know I'm giving up a small amount of glass quality, but it hasn't seemed to hamper my real world shooting [out to 1000] yet.

But I know Bill is gonna bring the sheepie into the mix :)

Best, John

John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 20:52:15 (ZULU)

Torque Wrenches:

RichS - I have had and used a Craftsman torque wrench (1/2" drive variety) for years rebuilding engines and working on cars.  When I needed a smaller wrench for gun work I found that I actually needed 2 different wrenches.  One to reach 65 like for the action screws and to tighten the rings to the bases (usually 3/8" drive) and a second that will go down light enough for the screws that hold the bases to the action (about 20 or upper ring halves to the lower ring halves (about 13, screwdrive style that takes hex bits.

The Seekonk isn't necessarily any beater than any other brand of good torque wrench, it is simply more convienent for its' specific uses.

If your looking for these try eBay you may be able to save a few $ but make sure of what you are bidding on first!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 21:46:50 (ZULU)

Rich S.,

I use the craftsman torque wrench for my rifles.  25 in lbs hasn't broken a base screw off yet,, but it is a bit high.  I use the short tail of the provided badger torque tool to hold when I tighten ring caps.  Otherwise,, it's been a very nice tool for the $55 I paid.


I wasn't trying to detract from the unit.  I like to pick at things though.  It says the entire system comes in at 10 lbs.  A M249 doesn't weigh 20lbs as I recall,, but at 10 lbs, this could be a fine weapon.  I'd think the cyclic rate would have to be dropped from 1000 or 800 rounds RPM to something in the 500 to 600 range though for controlability.  Also the unassembled weapon on the website shows no handle on the barrel,, ala M60.  They'd have to put something on there.  As for the beta mags,,, I never did like them, but dirty feed pauls will jam ya up quick too.  Everything's a trade off.  I'm sure you'll love it, and it'll certainly be interesting.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 22:03:29 (ZULU)

On torque wrenches, don't go cheap. You'll regret it. I've got a full set of Snap-on click-heads. When they go out of spec, Snap-on will do everything to refurbish them for free. Last time I took advantage of this was earlier this year. Just walk up to the truck, hand them the bad one, they put new guts in it right there in the truck, and hand you back a good one. Never fear buying quality the first time. Another trick, if you're in a populated area, is to get one at a pawn shop or the like. Doesn't matter if it's broken or not, the lifetime guarentee works for you as well. A little effort for a good tool at a great price.

Bill Rogers, your explanation of what they label you never fails to amuse me greatly 8p I'd wear that label proudly.

On being the early bird, remember this: the early bird gets the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese.

Gear heads and rotor heads. Now everyone will be flying Air Ford! Being this close to the Shelby facility doesn't hurt either.

Jaeger <>
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 22:10:36 (ZULU)


thanks for the inflammation on the torque wenches guys.

Chris, the Craftsman of which you speak, is it the same one I provided (hopefully successfully)a link to on the same thread I posted on SP?



RichS. <>
- Friday, August 30, 2002, at 22:18:18 (ZULU)

"What is the best program for ballsitics/ reloading on the market?"

The one that comes to mind is Neco QuickLoad but it's not cheap, about $150;

Another that I have heard good things about is Load From A Disk at about $60;

So far I simply see what the manuals say and then start testing various loads.  These programs are supposed to be able to tell you where to start based on things like caliber, case capacity and such.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 22:23:55 (ZULU)


9 44593 is the part number.  I have't looked at the link on SP yet.


Chris <>
Next 1K shoot at the AEDC in Tullahoma TN is Sept 22, Get with me for match schedule and details. "Gun sluts are both welcome and encouraged.", - Friday, August 30, 2002, at 22:39:50 (ZULU)


Those of you shooting AR-10's with the Armalite mounts, or mouse guns with one piece scope mounts, are you torquing the screws on the rail to 65 in/lbs as well?  Just wondering if I get to make yet another trip to Sears.

Thanks, Steve

Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 00:34:01 (ZULU)

The school supplies issue is just a tip of the ice berg. Let me illustrate how it works in BIG TIME. Upon recommendations of educators (happily associated with the NEA) serving on a committee. (don't you just love committees?) in this state. It was brought to vote in the state house where the big cities outnumber the rural areas in representation many times....(a condition that plagues Colorado as those there can attest) that all county wealth should be brought into a common fund (pot) and shared statewide in the school allocation system thus equalizing the expenditure of each district based on what ever politically correct meethod  they wanted to use for a yardstick. eg. test scores- if you made allowances for the ethinic background of the community and a number of other politically correct factors. Does this remind you of the school supply distribution thing? IT should!  Therefore the once Oil Rich agricultural counties in the west are thereby taxed to take care of the ethinic poor and the politically cooperative neighborhood schools of the east part of the state. Maybe you agree with that but consider that the tests were administered by people friendly to the NEA who innocently suggested to our students in this city school that the test was unimportant as far as their grades were concerned so why don't they just mark something and hand it back in.  The hopelessly low scores caused by this maneuver, nearly resulted in the closing of this school in a town of 3600 people who would have been consolidated with a small rural (the only other school system in the county) in a city of less than 1000 population thus handing control and space to the school board in the very small town 20 miles away. This was due to a mandate in the law that schools with lost test scores got the axe and students were distributed among the other schools in the county and control of the funds went to the other board as well as facilities.

  Now This action prompted the offer of this region the band with other counties and offer to succeed from the State and court actions filed. Now comes the funny part. Stay tuned even if your a AR 15 Belt man.  

  We had a Lady Governor who visited briefly with Col. Oliver North while he was on his lecture tour. I don't know what was exchanged but when Oliver appeared on TV he was asked routinely what he thought was the greatest immediate danger to freedom in America. He replied with what he thought was a local issue that it was the Military Elements and successionists in the Western part of this state. Now everyone concerned heard this and became paranoid. The successionists blamed the Militants they had heard existed in this part of the state like the Posse Comatatus and others.  The Posse which has more or less ceased to exist probably thought the successionists were nuts but didn't bother to enter the discussion so the public looked elsewhere. The only voice seemed to be one little newsletter that promoted and tried to correct the mistaken impression that the American Militia was evil.(Mine)  I was surprised to learn during a company meeting (my source of employment) that "My" Militia Army was causing quite a stir! (I was not pressured since they (my company) were sympathetic to the successionists).

I was in no position to deny that it didn't exist since everyone seemed convinced that it did and it seemed to add a measure of stabilization  for some reason....and the investigation had already started. The Govt. investigation came up cold but laden with suspicion. But the old ficticious Militia leader (me) is probably still suspect with the powers that be. All the time it was the successionists who were named by North and they thought it was the   Militia that he was talking about. It must have been quite a hard investigation uncovering something sinister that does exist but is totally invisible. You and I are, of course, the Militia I have always referred too. This is the one that must be protected at all cost. Not some group of extremists out to print their own money and evade taxes or promote racial or ethinic discrimination but the original Militia of the Constitution.  The one they looked for after 1911 when panic was about to set in, over local and national security. Something precious, almost lost to political ignorance and correctness. Patriotism if you will in it's ultimate form, the Armed Citizen willing to fight anyway he can and to the death if neccessary for the Freedom he hopes still exists. My apology to all, but sometimes it must be said. To those who fear and quake at the mention of the American Militia and those who fear association with any one who remembers what it is my heart goes out to you for you are in danger of losing what is most precious to yourself and all of us.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 02:46:16 (ZULU)


I'm not trying to sell them either, it just looks like it would fill a certain role . . . but picking at things is good.  I would want our troops to get good kit.

I saw on their page they were saying "Complete weapon weight is less than 8 lbs" so I -think- they mean all of it.  But could be wrong.  I don't think I'll get to find out, until someone richer than me brings one to the range :(

I seem to remember weighing an M-249 once, and it was right at 17 lbs.  Either way, I think a plasti-cracki box of 200 was like 7 lbs. or so, but one of the guys who has a lot more time on it than me could comment mo' betterer . . .

I think 650 to 750 would be easily doable still, with a bipod.  Now on a fixed pos. setup, the sky's the limit : it's not Ma Deuce for pete's sake <heh>

Not sure if the barrel handle is included, I saw a photo that had a [possibly removable?] handle forward on the bbl top.  If it doesn't come with one, I bet JC will add one to his barrel (I told him to snag a spare; this is the cheap way to shoot - get your buddy to buy it!)

Betas were not my favorite either.  Neat concept, not so good for long term though, in my limited xp.  Dirty things are bad in general, but if for some reason his unit doesn't run like a champ (next March), I'm not going to get one.

It's definitely going to be interesting, heh, but I wonder how long it will be before "they" go after these, even the semi ones?  Right before they go after my beloved LR guns, I bet.  Buggers.

I will see if next spring I can talk him into shooting it for score at Tullahoma <just kidding Chris!>

Best, John

P.S.  I just noticed they seem to have extended the sale to Sep. 7th.  Hmmm.  Sell some other guns?  Nahhhh :)

John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S.A. - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 03:12:18 (ZULU)

Roll another one, just like the other one.......

Been watching the farewell performance of The Band on AMC. Man would I like to have been at that jam session. Wowzers!!!!!!! Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Paul Butterfield, Doctor John and on and on. It'll never be the same, unfortunately!

The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 03:32:43 (ZULU)


Huh???  I think I got the part that "we" define ourselves in light of the second amendment's reference to militia...but that was it.  The rest just sailed right over my head...


 Vouchers are the best short term answer.  Give me my property tax cash, take a small percentage because politicians are SOBs, and let me decide where to spend it to educate my kids.  There.  Done with it.  Now the teacher unions have me in their sights.  


 On page 15 in the factory manual, it says to "thumb a cartridge into the chamber (to load an additional round).  Close the action."  Now, this is a controlled round feed ala pre-64.  The extractor is huge, but this sounds like a bad idea to me.  Not that I would bother trying it--there is a better chambering a round from the mag, then dropping the mag and inserting another, assuming I would need an extra shot from a bolt gun.  This sounds like a push-feed solution, and I am under the impression that this just ain't good for these actions or the shell casings.  What gives?

What are the torques for this rifle's action screws?  HS precision variant.  The book says, "take it to a gunsmith to disassemble beyond outlined procedures..."  Like hell I will.  Just need the data to write down.  The gun is fine as frog hair as it is.  But sooner or later, I will have to separate the action from the stock (maybe to bed it after I practice on some beaters)--and I want it to go back to where it is now.  TIA.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
EC, WI, US - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 05:05:18 (ZULU)


A few words from our past:

"...It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain--that this Nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom--and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from this earth."

Those words are just as relevent since SEP 11, 2001 as they were on Nov 19, 1863.  Think about it..

Why the quote?  I just read that a survey indicates that as much as half the respondants feel that the first ammendment "goes too far in granting freedoms" and that the constitution "hampers our security."


I hope that these respondants are ready to take arms.  I am sworn to defend that document.  If they want to destroy it, they can defend themselves...because I will have already died fighting to defend the constitution as it is written.

A disillusioned Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
EC , WI, US - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 05:31:50 (ZULU)

"The only thing we should fight for is the defense of our homes, and the Bill of Rights" Some Marine General some time back. I have this on my locker at work. It is from Gen Smedly Butler I think and he said this in the late 40's I have this and other scaps of paper on the outside of my locker. How does this apply to this site, you ask. How could it not, I say.

Scopes for the ONE GOOD RIFLE. I second John's 3.5-10X M3LR 2nd Gen mil dot vote. Use Badger base and rings. I have two. Well one's my sons but I bought it. And I use it for 1K matches and have scored 194-7X. And used the same gun scope combo for 500 yd bech rest using the 300yd target and score 47 out of 50 consistantly. I find the 1 min adjustments to be of no hinderance. Just learn how to use it to get the job done. 1 min at 500 yrds is 5". Wow you can be off five inches thats alot. No you would adjust the scope and be dead on. In reality if you are off 2.5" at 500yds thats 1/2moa. On this scope you can stop between clicks so you can adjust the 2.5" error out and be dead on again. So if you off 1.25" (1/4moa) at 500. Just hold a tad under or over depending on the bullet strike. I used to think it was too course of an adjustment. Now I can not realy see why anyone would get anything finer than 1/2 MOA adjustments, which in my limited experience seems to be the ideal adjustment. But I am fairly new at this stuff and learn slower than most.

This reminds me I have a bench rest match Sunday, and need to load.

Yote Bait, well said. I agree 100%

Joe M, I agree 100%

I ran into some 19 yr old Heroin junkies today, that were out shoplifting. Dont ask what. They told me that one of thier Aunts got them hooked. He also said he saw a Uncle help his 11 yr old niece shoot up. He said he wanted to slap him up side his head, but really needed his fix. (See Allen, this is why I am the way I am. And I don't mean dumb. Thats from falling out a window repeatedly and landing on my head. Thought it was a hoot at age 4.)

It's a wonderfull world.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 06:26:20 (ZULU)

Ref: Team Mussack Deploys

We're all packed and ready to go.  Raton, here we come.  We'll be off the net for the next eight days.  It's good to be alive.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 11:00:28 (ZULU)

Brian S.

You have email. No attachment.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 11:30:36 (ZULU)


I think, if it weren't so sad, your status and position in the community would be humorous/admirable. I'd like to think there are 2 or 3 of your caliber in my county. If you look at the post from Joe, it almost sounds like they surveyed your neighbors. I am quite sure I'm thought of as a fanatic "gun" owner, as well as a few other things, but I prefer to think otherwise. I'm not insulting you or your situation, it's sad that the consensus of some is, as 'lito said, the guvmint will fix it for us. I'll have to see what PJ did with all those f#$%^ing # 2 pencils I bought him. I agree w/ Todd, that is WRONG.

I'm also a user of the LRM3 Gen2 scope. Hunting anything.

I saw a woman in the Dairy Queen yesterday tell her 5 yr.old girl to get away from the deer hunting arcade game. Not once, but 3 times. She kept pickin up the pistol and aimin' it at the deer. Finally she got up and removed her from the arcade area. edit.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 11:56:57 (ZULU)

 The beauty of the nature of The Constitution and the Liberty we enjoy is that when vigilance falters, we are given ample warning........When vigilance is discarded, we get our due reward......Those not prepared to take steps necessary to secure their own Liberty will not maintain it, nor do they deserve it.......

Mark Smth <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 12:32:26 (ZULU)

Joe; I guess you had to be there to catch it all. As a result several prominent business men including the Co. Sheriff (still in office) started home schooling. (no private schools around). These are people of courage, if you knew what it has cost them. It was indeed humorous, That people who wanted to keep their tax money to educate their kids were labeled revolutionaries. Their intentions were so far from that, they looked elsewhere when someone labeled them, they figured they must be talking about someone else. You would be surprised how many offer's I had to "join my Militia" and where they came from. When I explained that they already belonged to it. Some seemed really puzzled. This illustrates how far we have come from our basic ideals to some extent. The Minute man principle has all but disappeared, yet it pops up in places where Anarchy raises it's ugly head from time to time. The concept of a "Well regulated Militia" has certainly been tested such as the 51st Missouri and a few others. It seems to be a little too scary to the powers that be, but nertheless. The Minute Man is still around.

Brogers < >
- Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 12:38:55 (ZULU)

BRogers:   Yup! I must be one of those "rignt wing, gun totin', church going, 4x4 drivin', patriotic extremists.  My wife teaches our two kids at home.  We long ago saw the direction of the public schools not only in educational shortfalls, but also in their incessant political indoctrination.  The NEA is the right arm of the Democrat Party.  Any Conservative values tend to be villified.  

    There are huge amounts of home schooling curriculum available.  For any family considering this alternative, there is an organization called Home School Legal Defense Ass'n.   Sorry this isn't shooting related....

Jerry <>
Red River Valley, MN, USA - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 14:17:53 (ZULU)

Been using a Craftsman torque wrench for a while.  No probs so far.

Don't use it that often.

Just my 2 ... but then, I'm a driver, not a mechanic.

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 14:38:01 (ZULU)


FN SPR torque is 65 in/lb for the McStocks.  Got this from MSgt Owens at FN.


Gooch <>
Click on my name to visit - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 15:13:43 (ZULU)

>>Ref: Team Mussack Deploys

We're all packed and ready to go.  Raton, here we come.  We'll be off the net for the next eight days.  It's good to be alive.<<


In case you haven't already signed off....


Glad to see you getting away. If there's any way I could get off, I'd like to come up for a couple of days. Too much going on here with classes going on anyway but might get a couple days to come up and see you guys and show me how it's done ;)) Not but a 6 hr. drive for me. I love Raton and the Whittington Center. You guys might want to consider going into Cimmarron one evening and dining at the St. James Hotel. Good food and lots of history there.

I'd like to know who else on the Roster is going to be there? When does the match begin?

Mark W

Mark W <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 15:13:49 (ZULU)

An urban legend debunked...

Just an experience of no relevance I thought I'd pass on.  I'm sure you have all heard that old saw "oh yea, just the mere sound of a pump action shotgun chambering a round will stop a man in his tracks". Not so grasshopper !

A while back at work, a couple of us were nominated by our boss for "coyote abatement". We were to keep a firearm in our truck and dispatch the supposed troublesome coyotes we had on our 1800 acre plant site.  Not that the doggies were any real problem, but I duly complied and went forth armed.  One day, over the 2-way, I heard some of our "security" ladies screaming for help at the front guard shack.  When I rolled up on the scene, I saw one guard gal face down, motionless in a pool of blood and a truly huge stranger kicking her.  Damn ! I didn't see any weapon, but obviously, something bad happened and was still happening.  The guy, quite musclebound and outweighing me by about 100 lb, just looked up at me and started walking toward me as I exited my vehicle.  Since I had a Mossberg 500 pump in the truck, I grabbed it up and got on out, pumping a round in the chamber as I confronted him.  He just keeps coming and says "So what...shoot me !".

Suddenly, I'm an alumnus of the University of "what the hell do I do now ?" Our local police Lt. says he thinks it would have been a "clean" shoot, but still, who really wants to have to go lethal on a guy ? Besides, I'm at work...not expecting this kind of thing. Mindset really not in combat mode. Just as I was about to have to make a heavy decision, about 10 of my rather burly coworkers came flying up and the problem was done. Just one of those golden moments when you really learn some valuable tidbits.

Lessons learned ?

1.  Anyone who believes that about a pump shotgun sound has obviously never tried it on a 250 lb crackhead !!

2.  You had better f***ing always have your mental shit squared away, 'cause you never know when trouble will come your way.

3.  If you tie a MoFo up with enough plastic zip ties, he ain't getting away, no matter how big and bad he is ! Ha !

Just wanted to pass along a lesson learned !

Keep yer powder dry


AB <>
Ark. , U.S. of (Smile when you say it)A - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 16:22:05 (ZULU)


      I'm afraid that the vast majority of HUMMV's around here are the ones coming down from Aspen, Telluride, and Vail to shop at our WallyWorld, Sam's Club, and shopping malls.


      Plenty of hummers can be observed in the back row of the high school parking lots after dark. I'm afraid that if I ever did get one of those hummers, I wouldn't be giving it to anybody!


     Just like any equipment choice, it all comes down to "depends on  how you're gonna use it?" My choice for a .308 George gun leans toward a LR M3 GenII, with a Badger setup. That way, until you have another stick, you can get something like a MK4 16x, put on another pair of Badgers, and go shoot F Class, or like in my case, Dynamite shoots! Most people are surprised at how small a 12 oz. pop can looks at 880yds. Besides, then you'll have a good enough excuse to get a .300WM.

Congrats in order,

                 World BR 1,000yd. record set last month at a sanctioned shoot in Byers, CO. Record group was 1.47" AT ONE THOUSAND YARDS!! I'm very embarassed to admit that the name of the Golden, CO shooter became victim to one of my brain farts, but I'll remedy that as soon as I find a certain little piece of paper. The record holding rifle is based on a Rem. 700 action and was built here by hometown 'smith Dan Dowling, of Palisade, CO.

Dirty Steve,

           I think we're on the same page now.

John L,

         Thanks for your concern.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 16:37:13 (ZULU)


>"I'm sure you have all heard that old saw "oh yea, just the mere sound of a pump action shotgun chambering a round will stop a man in his tracks". Not so grasshopper !  <snip>   I had a Mossberg 500 pump in the truck,"<

No, no Dude... Biiiiig mistake!

It's the sound of a Remington 870 pump shotgun that stops them dead in their tracks.!!!  Nobody stops for a Mossberg 500 ;))

By the way... what had happened to the lady guard??



Ok, ok... I'll take the second one you find!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 16:49:35 (ZULU)

'Lito San

Oh hell, wish I'd a known that beforehand, I'd have brought the 870 ! Ha ! (always wondered why that didn't work). The guard lady suprisingly wasn't all that injured.  Apparently, she was the former girlfriend of the bad guy. As it turned out, he had no weapon but he kicked the bejesus out of her and she bled like a the proverbial stuck hog from a scalp laceration, but no permanent damage. As a P.S. though, my wife (the cop in our house) recognized the guy's name.  She told me he was out on parole for attempted homicide and was suspected in a murder here.  I love parole.

Tip o' the hat to those that have to put up with scum like that every day they go to work.


AB <>
Ark, U.S. of (Smile when you say it) A. - Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 17:25:12 (ZULU)

'lito, I'll e-mail you off line.