Sniper Country Duty Roster

Dan-o.......Repent......Repent.......Repent..........and all will be forgiven.  

Repeat after me......Remington......Winchester.........Remington.........Winchesterover and over with a light chorus of M-21's and AR-10 discendant gas gunners amongst us.


Titan <>
- Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 00:28:09 (ZULU)

Anyone out there have any experience with the Howa 1500 PCS? All I really know is that they are imported from Japan, and they are fairly cheap in price. I may be interested in purchasing one if someone on the roster could give me some good feedback. Also is it true that Howa has made the actions for Weatherby in the Vanguard and the Mark V?

thanks for the help

Robert French <>
va, - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 03:01:00 (ZULU)

Rrruu.rrruuu...rrruuuuggg.... Oh hell I just can't type it. Just say not to Ruu.....! Stealth first, 700 second (don't want no stinking S&W parts smelling up a new rifle).

I am ready for cold weather, summers suck worse every year. Everybody seems like they are in a bad mood and being the nice and understanding person that I am.........

Thinking of buying one of the cool vests that we wear under our hazmat stuff. Activate it in a bucket of ice water and you stay nice and cool for several hours.

I'm mellttttinnnggggg..............., Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 03:43:44 (ZULU)

First Leupold product I bought that SUCKS...

Their magnetic bore sighter :(((((

I have a Bushnell bore sighter, but the 50 cal spud is too short to use on the 50BMG, because of the muzzle break... the damn thing is L-O-N-G.

I got it sighted in at the range, with a MK4-M3, and Barrett rings (thank you, you know who you are :).

Setting it up is a bit difficult, because the rings have built in ability to tilt up or down (200 moa total)... and to get the most elevation out of the scope (a B&L 10x Tac)... you set the elevation knob to the bottom of its travel (less about 3 moa)... then you shoot, and adjust the rings so that you are on at 100, with the elevation at the bottom it's travel... you need about four hands, and a bunch of ammo, cuz it's all trial and error.

OK... I get it done with the MK4-M3, and I figgure that if I have a bore sighter that I could see where the first scope lined up, I could just put the second scope on (at home), line up the hairs to the same place, and I should be pretty good... but the Bushnell spud is too short.

So I order the Leupold magnetic guy, cuz it will stick on the break, and I'm home (HA!, as Pat would say).

It's one of those ideas that is G-R-E-A-T, but the bean counters got to it, after the en-ga-neers did their work.

When you look through the Bushnell... the grid is crispy and sharp.

When you look through the Leupold, it's a friggin disaster.

The grid is out of focus, and because the lens is a simple magnifier (it should be a doublet)... there are color fringes around everything.

It will do what I need for the 50BMG, but after that, it goes into the junk box.

Bruce Robinson... you know what will be here next week :)))))



CatShooter <>
The heat and humidity are back... even the cats are hiding from it, under that fat lady's porch :(( ..., in a bad state of sweat..., USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 04:16:49 (ZULU)

Leupold Magnetic Bore Sighter -

What a POS!  'Lito, I bought one of these last year when they first came out.  Thought it would be great to site in the new M3LR on the Remy.  Took it out to the 100 yard range, fired and didn't see no hole on the paper.  Two more shots and still no little holes.

Dragged target back to 50 yards, fired and STILL no little hole on the paper!  Borrowed a sandbag for the buttstock, pulled the bolt, boresighted, fired, and a little hole shows on the paper!  YAY!

Returned the POS back to Sinclair and bought a bunch of other, more useful stuff.

Heat and Humidity -

'Lito and Bolt, you guys are pussies.

Moe (basking at 87 at 0113 hours)

Moe Mensale <>
Beautiful south Florida where the seasons are Hot, Hotter and HOLY SHIT and only tourists and shooters have tans!, - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 05:10:34 (ZULU)

The Real Skinny On Sniping -

It seems that Kevin of the Great White North has started a new thread on on sniping with his favorite antagonist, 11bravo.  For any of you that are interested, it's in the "Tactics and Training" section and titled, what else, "Sniping" by boland.

Kevin, be kind to him.  He's only about 24 and probably believes too much of what is in all the manuals he seems to have a never ending supply of.


Moe Mensale <>
Beautiful south Florida where the seasons are Hot, Hotter and HOLY SHIT and only tourists and shooters have tans!, - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 05:38:41 (ZULU)

Can anyone help me find any resources on Air Force snipers in Viet Nam?  I have searched the web for hours and can find nothing, yet I know they existed. Please help.

Thanks in advance


Kingtriton <>
Citrus Heights, CA, USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 07:48:21 (ZULU)

Ref: Back from Sniper Camp

I just got back from the Operational Tactics, Inc. Police Sniper School.

It was five long days of intensive training.

The instruction was good to go.

If you plan to attend, eat your Wheaties and be fit.  This is not an easy course of instruction, 14 hours a day with lots of physical exertion.

At 47 years old it was nice to be able to keep up with a bunch of operators 15-20 years younger than me.

It's time for my ibuprofin.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 14:05:41 (ZULU)

Robert French, Ref the Howa 1500. I haven't seen the heavey barrel version, but this rifle was also used as a weatherby as you said, it was also sold in Germany as an RWS model 89, I used to have one in 300wm, I bedded it with Belzona(what the Brit army use for gluing in or bedding AI rifles to the stock chassis and for many battle damage repair uses) the thing shot like a dream, with Winchester fail safes, it shot into a half inch at 100m, and with federal High shock was slightly worse but well under an inch. It had a beautiful walnut stock that I ruined bear hunting in Northern California, this upset me so much I haven't owned a wooden stocked rifle since, and as I couldn't at the time find any one who made a synthetic for it, I sold it, I have been kicking my self in the arse ever since, if I ever get the chance to buy it back I will. If I could find any one who would import  this heavey barrel version into Europe these days I would definately buy one, and If I see a sporter for sale, I won't be able to resist it for my next project. The action is slick and smooth as butter, the trigger is a good solid adjustable unit, I don't know who's barrels they use, but the 300wm cleaned easy, didn't foul much and shot better than the Rem 700 sendero sf that I bought to replace it.hope this helps. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 14:54:58 (ZULU)

Re the Howa....I currently have one in .308, and I have been fussing with it for a while.  It has a short, fluted bbl, and is set into a black, composite stock of indeterminate make.  I bedded it and hogged out the handguard channel to be sure the bbl didn't touch (they had some sort of pressure-point hump in it, for some reason).  I have had a little trouble with bullet seating length, as Weatherby has such long throats, and it's darn near impossible to get a bullet out to within .0010 of the lands and have at least a caliber in the case neck. I settled for an OAL of 2.785 with a 168-gr Sra hpbtm (moly, and bite me)stuffed in 1978 LC Match brass, of which I have a rapidly-dwindling supply, ahead of 46 gr Varget.  It shoots one-hole groups at 100 yds.  Which is good, because I wasn't eager to shell out to have the bbl set back on a rifle that will be usable only out to about 500 yds, because of the 18" bbl.  but it WILL shoot nicley out to there.  It held into a bit less than 1" at 300, which is all I need it for (city varmints).  

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 15:38:27 (ZULU)

Howa Rifles -

Mike Allee, at "Gunsmithing Only," here in the KC area, showed me a new HB Howa .308 a customer had brought in to have the action squared and trued-up.  He said the work would have been superfluous - everything was already perfectly square, right out of the box!  He didn't remember ever seeing a Remington or Winchester like that.  He also showed me a casting from the Howa's chamber/throat area that was perfectly concentric - and a similar cast from a new PSS that was NOT!

'Course, I've been significantly out-shot by good shooters with totally untuned M70HV's, M700VS's, and PSS's.  I could always try practicing more...

Earl <>
KC, MO, USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 15:56:50 (ZULU)

I think these Howa rifles are a gem thats been over looked, Here in Germany you don't see them often (RWS 89), I have only ever seen 2 here, my old one and one in either 243 or 6.5x55, can't remember which, I have left my phone number with several gun shops with instructions to call me if they get one in. the Guy I sold the 300wm to will not sell it back to me (stubborn sod) guess he knows a good thing when he sees it.John Sundra (rifleman magazine) is a big fan of this action, I believe he had an ER Shaw helicaly fluted barrel fitted to a Howa action, don't know for sure, but I think it was in one of the Lazzeroni calibers(don't quote me on that).

So how come all you sniper/long range guys never show any interest in the Lazzeroni products? Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 16:35:34 (ZULU)

Testing with Internet Explorer...

Posting and editing works...

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 16:46:57 (ZULU)

Testing with Netscape 4.61...

Posting and editing works...

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 16:47:30 (ZULU)


If you are reading this the fix worked and I can now post. We'll hold our breath and see...


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 17:55:54 (ZULU)


HE'S BACK....! Thanks, Marius. Looks as though Kevin and I will be able to post once again. It's nice to know our mindless drivel can be read by the masses once again! Oh, that's the OTHER list I'm on....

Pete Lincoln opined as to why the SC community does not embrace the Lazzaroni series of cartridges for sniping. First, they are seriously overbore, so barrel life is poor(sans Weatherby). Second is logistics. Have you ever seen a box of Lazzaroni for sale in your local sporting goods store? Take it anyone making precision dies, etc. for these cartridges? It all adds up to not being a good choice for our community.

Loopie magnetic bore sighter. I looked at these and initially thought that it was a good idea(no spud in the barrel), but came away disappointed. As mentioned optics were not clear. MY old Tasco seems to be just fine. Besides, all my tactical stuff holds zero, so I really don't need the bore sighter for them...

Test fired a #1 in .22-250 the other day. Nice rifle. Shot 3/4 MOA out of the box when I did my part. It's the only R rifle I would even consider owning...

Headshots: Forget it except for static situations and LE. Kevin Maries said it very succinctly. Most of us shoot prone(a lot). I guarantee in real life you will rarely get prone shots except from a hide or prepared position. Anything else is too fluid.

Jungle boot break in: Wade a creek for awhile, go on a long hike, and let them dry on your feet. Hint: put a tablespoon of dish soap in warm water and soak your feet/boots in the bucket...then hike. The soap will help break down the surface tension of the leather allowing it to mold to your feet better. Had a pair I did that to and I could even wear them without socks! That smooth and nice inside.

The soap also washes your socks as you wear them...;-)

Save your camp follower, at home, having to do them later(ducking...)

Last, but not least. Let's re-open the 6.5 X .284 thread. Lot's got posted and I couldn't reply. My understanding was that a lot of the 6.5 X .284 shooters did not do well, at Perry, this year. For whatever reason. My Chandler gun continues to shoot fantastically for me.

For those who are sweltering, I just thought I'd add that it's 11:30 AM, here in the coast mountains of western Oregon, and a very temperate 70 degrees. Try not to hate me...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 18:35:51 (ZULU)


Terry <>
- Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 18:44:19 (ZULU)


Lazzeroni.............WILDCAT Status...........

for all intents, and barrel burners, two of the reasons that come to the fore.

Howa's.........very nice actions, BUT they suffer a horrible fate....

No ONE to my limited knowledge is making a QUALITY stock for them.....

I had a custon in .30-338...........beaut........but, I didn't like getting beat to death by a wooden hunting stock.

Only folks I KNOW that make a syn stock for them are Carbleite(sp) folks......and IMHO, are jonk. are truly an inspiration to we geriatrics my fedora is OFF to you SIR!!!!!!

Feloniusfeline shooter...........(alias Fritolitosan').....(((;

Got my first look ( and FEEL), of the Armalite 50.........beaut of a piece, just would have to be KMussack, or YOU to carry the damn thing........but, it appears to be VERY well made.

Dos Zap

Two Shoes

Terry <>
- Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 18:45:24 (ZULU)

Ok, I admit it. Half timers disease has set in. I can usually spout off the hour, day, month and year a subject was discussed. I have searched and cannot find where we discussed Break Free, CLP, teflon, etc. I think it was in 99 but cnrtl F won't find it.

Wishing I could sell sweat, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 20:29:01 (ZULU)


So how did that bad boy shoot? Any groups to speak of? Anything like that 1/4" 400 yard group ;)?

Rob01 <>
- Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 20:36:48 (ZULU)


Glad to be back.


I've painted my 700 4 times now. The whole thing once and the stock three times. Used Krylon and Rustoleum over Zinc Oxide primer (sticks to aluminum and stainless well) As we've all read before, but it bears repeating, the key is in the prep. DEGREASE,DEOIL,and when you think it's clean, then do it again, before you start priming. As for camo colors/patterns, the Krylon flat camo's have worked well with me, they have around 8-10 different colors. Achieved best results over spraying leaves to create a pleasant pattern the blended well (used fir and maple leaves).

Current configuration is flat black Krylon stock with unpainted metal (stainless). I sanded the HS stock to smooth it up and taped off the grip and fore arm areas, painted them thick then poured sand over them, then lightly painted over the sand. Grips like the devil! Is shootable with skin, but feels GREAT with pilot gloves.

If anyone is interested in pix just Email me.


Ever tried letting an ice cube melt on the underside of your wrist (where your veins are)? It will actually cool your whole body pretty quickly.

Whats with the Army of 1? Heck, isn't that a sniper designation?

buk <>
LittleRock, Arkansquash, - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 20:54:02 (ZULU)

Two shoes...

Yup, it's heavy piece... but I can shoot over a 100 rounds in an afternoon, and not have a sore shoulder from it... might be a little deef though ;)



"Sell sweat"?? Not around here... the market is saturated HA!

(Couldn't help it. Double HA!)



I just finished plumbing the wires, and setting the bubbles this afternoon.  The damn thing is beautiful. It has that "Look".

I'll be loading a bunch of test loads tonight. I don't know when I'll get to shoot it... life has come to a crawl for a few weeks, and I got about 5 guns apart now.

That weren't no 1/4" group at 400yds... it was 0.46" (and I wish it was a registered match, cuz I'll never do it again).

I'd like to shoot it this week, if I can find some coverage for "Ruggus Rattus".  He's outta day camp, and into everything.

Two months ago, he talked me into getting him some hamsters... we got 4 girls (more HA!)... seems that one of them was a horny ol' fox in drag... he got into the bunch of girls (litterly :((

Anybody want 11 baby hamsters??...

I'd use 'em for cat bait, but it would break his heart...



CatShooter <>
The heat and humidity are back... even the cats are hiding from it, under that fat lady's porch :(( ..., in a bad state of sweat..., USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 21:10:34 (ZULU)


wouldn't using hamsters instead of cats be like using pistol targets for rifle shooting? think downsizing...

you could create a whole new winter time indoor sport...

Does your 50 happen to be the Armalite? I'm about to start saving for one, but want to hear more comments from owners.



buk <>
LittleRock, Arkansquash, - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 21:44:11 (ZULU)


Yup. it's an AR-50, and I love it.  

I have a MK4-M3 scope for close range (1200mtrs), with military stuff (AP, API, Incendary, etc), and they will track one of the cams pretty well (so far).

And a B&L 10x Tac scope for reaching out there.

I missed the Ft Drum shoot, but Tony (50bldr) and the guys there were hitting a cardboard tank at UKD mile (turned out to be 1750 yds).

They are fun... but I'll be the first to warn you... the price of the gun is just the beginning of your road to poverty :((

... but you'll love the ride ;))


CatShooter <>
The heat and humidity are back... even the cats are hiding from it, under that fat lady's porch :(( ..., in a bad state of sweat..., USA - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 21:53:25 (ZULU)

Re the Howa,

Abuddy of mine was after a new rifle and I did some searchin on the net for him. Couldnt find a bad thing anywhere about Howas.Thet are bein sold here with a varmint wooden stock wich looks pretty good,there are 3 custom shop models available.



Gavan Willis <>
its about 10 deg C, and Im goin shootin, hehehehehe - Saturday, August 18, 2001, at 22:44:50 (ZULU)

Sorry Lito for the mistake ;) You should have went with me on that. Not that .46 is anything to sneeze at at 400 yards. Looked like 1/4" to me. :) Well good luck with the rifle. Sounds like it's ready to go. I wanted to load some tonight myself but the PACT BBK scale crapped out. I hate that damn thing. Can't wait for the RCBS 505 to get here. Don't get me started. Well let us know how it works and it you want to shoot it up at Ledyard let me know and we'll set something up. Sorry but .50s aren't allowed. :( My friend who just bought a M2 is trying to change that though. Later.

Rob01 <>
- Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 00:10:36 (ZULU)


I had one of those PACT BBKs, and it went back the day after I got it. Serious POS!

You will like the RCBS... it's made by Ohaus, and really fine.

I would love if Ledyard opened up to 50s.

See ya soon.


CatShooter <>
The heat and humidity are back... even the cats are hiding from it, under that fat lady's porch :(( ..., in a bad state of sweat..., USA - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 00:20:59 (ZULU)


Seems some of you are having some humorous (and hot and sticky) comments. Thought I'd relate my latest...

Last Thursday "someone" left my muzzle mit on the .308 when it was fired at 300 yards. Rifle is OK. Mit is not doing so well....luckily, "she who must be obeyed" can reverse it, trim it, and re-sew it and you'll never know the difference. Well, IT IS a little shorter than the pristine one on my 6.5 X .284. Talk about feeling like an idiot!

Sometimes I feel like I'd forget my XXXX if it weren't attached!

Tactical Intervention muzzle mit suggestion. Since it seems "de rigaur" to blame the other guy and absolve ourselves of all repsonsibility for our actions...Undude, why don't you make a "sensor model" that will open up and let the bullet pass? You know, kinda like a "smart" holster for a dumb operator...;-)

Just ordered 5K primers, caddies of Varget, and H4831SC. Want to limit the variables in my loading. Now all I need are large quantities of Lapua and Norma brass and I can go into production.

Has ANYONE seen the new Lapua 6.5 x .284 brass yet? It's been promised, but to date I have not seen any. Well, the Norma stuff is damn good!

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 00:32:00 (ZULU)

Lito'.................Can SEE why you aren't sore........BUT, HOW do you keep from getting concussion loopy??.

Shooting a 82A1, and 10 rounds you are feeling a bit ill.

Also, tell us a bit more about the RCBS......

I have a friend that is using the "Prometheus", scale, and I ain't EVEN gonna say what kind of ES, and SD's he is ringing's like "Twilight Zone".

Mebbe he'll share L_A_T_E_R.............(I hope).

Rob01, you watch lito'........he's a Baaadd inflooence!!!!!......((:

Sir Wes, make me fell (somewhat more betterer), about NOT dialing in elevatoion changes!!!!!.........DOH!!!!!

Did you  leave your Spectac-les home??.

KevinM, You musta took more than Ibeeproffen...........((:

Dos Zap

Two Shoes

Terry <>
- Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 01:51:26 (ZULU)

Two Shoes...

The 50BMG concussion is a B-I-T-C-H... it feels like a flash bang going off in front of you.

I guess it sorta IS... 235 grains of powder, being released 3 feet in front of you, in a baffled break, that points backward.

The RCBS Ohaus scale is nice... has floating, polished agate berings.

The "Prometheus" is a whole different ballgame.


CatShooter <>
The heat and humidity are back... even the cats are hiding from it, under that fat lady's porch :(( ..., in a bad state of sweat..., USA - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 02:47:58 (ZULU)

This question goes out to all the shooters like myself, that love to put rounds down range but are living on a modest income. I will soon be buying a new heavy barrel rifle (probably .308). Which would be my best choice Savage 10FP or Howa 1500PCS? Best I can tell they run about the same money. I know from experience that Savage can build an accurate rifle, but I have never been a big fan of their actions. This is why I am curious about the Howa rifles, just from what I can tell from pictures their actions look pretty sweet. Are the Howas as good as the Savage rifles, the sure are a much nicer looking weapon?


Robert French <>
va, - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 05:29:08 (ZULU)

From the 'horse's' mouth, eh CatShooter:

I haven't commented on this, cuz I wanted to see the response first, but do youse guys really think polygonal rifling is a new improvement to accuracy?  Sheesh..  Will poly rifled barrels shoot lead?  Hell yes!!  Will they shoot jacketed bullets?  Sometimes!!  Are they easier to clean?  Yes!!  Why?  No corners!!  Are they easy to make??  NO!!  Are they better than standard rifling??  NO!!  If they were, we'd all be shooting polygonal.

I am in the design stage of a cutter that will broach the land with the groove which is needed for polygonal rifling.  IF I make a barrel with round lands, you will be paying at least 1500 bucks for this pipe, I guarantee it(I'll give it to charity).

Guys, sometimes I think I'm talkin' with a bunch of rocket scientists here, and when you get into that crowd, you get a lot of nonsense.  Let's think about this a bit.

Why does a barrel shoot out??  Throat.  Why would a poly throat last longer than a standard throat?  It wouldn't.

But, geez, I've got a 45 ACP with 25000 rounds thru it, poly barrel, still accurate as hell!!  Yeah, you've got a 3 inch barrel too buddy.  Throat not quite as Affective there.  Probably the shooter, not the barrel.  Not a good testimony.

Nevertheless, youse poly afficionados, hear me out.  It doesn't matter if it's 2 groove, 3 groove, 4 groove, 5r, 6 groove, 7 groove, 8 groove, microgroove(12 groove), poly groove, whitworth, newton, whatever, if the barrel was made well, and made to specs, it will shoot.  Don't worry yerselves about such matters, leave that to us barrelmakers to bother with!!

If anyone would like to know why the throat is such a biggie on accuracy, let me know!  It's kinda like when you eat a Chinese dinner after a Taco Bell lunch, eh 'lito!!  hahah



'aka the HORSE' <>
rapid city, sd, - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 06:38:44 (ZULU)

Been to the fair,

Got kicked out of the 'BB gun shoot the star out' booth.  Stopping by with a few friends after the German Beer Tent probably didn't help, but for all youse newbies, those BB gun barrels are waaaaay oversize.  Almost impossible to get a good group on the red star.  I think ya gotta shoot the star out off the card to get a stuffed prize.  Well, I shot the clothespin that holds the card, knocked the card off, seemed a lot easier than shootin' the star.  The carnies weren't amused, but they gave me the biggest bear fer the attempt, hahahhha.  Good sports. (double HA!)


JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 07:42:25 (ZULU)

Newbie testing password.


Fred Simmons <>
Cecilia, Kentucky, USA - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 11:01:11 (ZULU)

Hello, first post here.

Looks like my password worked.

Are there any tips pertaining to accurizing a FN/FAL?

I have on L1A1 and getting an STG-58. Besides throwing

them away and buying a bolt gun. Which is not an option

in my case. I'm an old burned out retired fart that has

a bunch of arthritis in my shoulders and arm,legs and etc.

So I've been selling all my bolt guns and getting gas guns

with BIG recoil springs. Got an AR, some AK's, and the FALS.

Any help would be most appreciated!


Fred Simmons <>
Cecilia, Kentucky, USA - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 11:12:51 (ZULU)


For those of interest,

We went to visit long-range/ benchrest custom rifle builder Herr Menke in Heidel, Germany last friday and again saw some great looking long sticks.

Arrived around 1430h and the reception was a bit akward, maybe Herr Menke was trying us out to see if we were serious customers or whatever, but the first half hour of the visit we really had to drag the answers and possibility’s out of him.

But when he finally realized we came al the way from Holland and were meaning buiseness he came through quite alright.

Herr Menke is Germans national champion and European champion in benchresting.

He therefor knows what he is doing and his rifles are all hand made, even the actions.

His stocks for benchresting are even patented, and they are really strange, very strange, looking stocks indeed.

(they are very low due to the fact that most of the stock is not under the barrel/action but above and around it, thus having the barrel very low laying in the stock and the gun will not buck upwards, only straight to the rear).

Anyways, when we told him our “project” 6,5x.284 rifle he ofcourse tried to talk us out of it because according to him we got no buiseness with a tactical rifle in long range matches, at least not if we want to win anything, and ofcourse he is wright, but I do not want a spacey looking 6,5x.284 rifle, I want a tactical high quality 6,5x.284 and if that means not winning but only ending with the first 15 I will be pleased enough.

In the end, Herr Menke can and will build anything you want, he also makes very good looking and working tactical rifles with muzzle breakes again of his own design, at high quality for a reasonable price, in fact he is even cheaper than lets say a Mr Ferguson and even a Mr Tooley, but….there is always a but….

Both Paul and I felt that if we compare Mr David Ryan (euro importeur for Tooley), Mr Ferguson and Mr Menke than with no doubt Mr Ferguson stands above them all, even though he is the most expensive of all three (our project, 6,5x.284 tactical rifle complete with scope, base, rings, a3-stock, bipod, muzzle-break and thread-cap will cost “at least” 6000$ with him and a 4000$ at Menke’s)

he had the most possibility’s, and he convinced us most of his capabilities and quality, not the least due to the fact that he really took the time for us (a whole day), had arranged everything for us (like a Bead&Breakfast place, places to eat and even a an hour on his range) but also puts more time and effort in buiding your rifle.

With that I mean he not only builds your rifle, but he will also do ammotesting with it, so when you come to collect your rifle he will have load testing ready and give you advice about how to and what to load for this rifle.

Further more, little things like the fact that although a Mr Ryan answered all our questions but did not really take the time for us like Mr F did, and that after a 3 ½ hour visit at Mr Menke we still did not get even one cup of coffee, although that does not say anything about the quality of their rifles, it does put Mr Fergusson in the lead, at least I have a better feeling with the workmanship of Mr Fergusson, and I will have to check 1 or 2 things more, but I am almost certain my stick is going to be build in Scotland.

To be continued,


Marco <>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 12:01:50 (ZULU)

Hey horsey...

I remember back when Marlin used 22 grove rifling on ALL their riffle barrels... how'd you like to cut those barrels ;) ???

I recall some time back, there was some talk of a rounded rifling... no sharp edge... the edges of the lands, and the corners of the groves were radiused.

You know what this is, or who was playing around with it... seems that it should be easy to clean, and still have a good "grab" on the bullet.


CatShooter <>
The heat and humidity are back... even the cats are hiding from it, under that fat lady's porch :(( ..., in a bad state of sweat..., USA - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 13:42:39 (ZULU)

Poly VS Rifling…

Here my results of shooting a poly barrel and rifling barrel with exactly the same ammo.

Made for each rifle 32 rounds, 2 batches per rifle of 4 groups of 4 rounds, 1 with 41, 1 with 42, 1 with 43 and 1 with 44 grain of powder, of which I shot 16 through each rifle on Friday and 16 through each on Saturday.

Ammo consisted of; IMI90 case

Federal nr210 primer

VithaVuori N140

Lapua Silver jacket 167,5 grain bullet

Unfortunately someone was stupid enough to bring along a chronograph with out batteries so I have not been able to get any speed tests, I will show them maybe next week, so all I got now are group sizes…

(That stupid someone was of course me, myself and I)

Weapon Winchester HBV 26 inch rifling barrel with 1 to 12 twists

Range 100 meters.

          On Friday on Saturday

4 rounds with 41 grain of powder, group size; 1.4030 inch 1.5405 inch

,           42                                            ; 1.2585 inch 1.1145 inch

,,                    43                                             ; 1.4650 inch 1.6355 inch

,,                    44                                             ;   1.0320 inch 1,1095 inch

Weapon H&K PSG-1 26 inch polygonal barrel with 1 to 12 twists

Range same 100 meters.

On Friday on Saturday

4 rounds with 41 grain of powder, group size; 1.4485 inch 0.8655 inch

,,                     42                                            ; 0.8695 inch 1.2355 inch

,,                     43                                            ; 1.2605 inch 0.9490 inch

,,                     44                                            ;     0.9385 inch 0.7170 inch

(These groups are measured from the outsides of the bullet holes, so each group must have the calibre still subtracted)

As one can see, both rifles shot smallest groups (average) with the 44-grain loads, with the PSG performing better than the Winnie.

But if this tells you anything about poly vs. rifling, I have no clue; these are just the results I am getting.

Furthermore, I do not now if it is fair to compare a 3600$ semi-auto with a 1000$ bolt gun.

Funny thing also, I really had put a lot of effort in the above used rounds, weighed every bullet, every powder load and did a lot of case prepping.

But I also had made a simple fast-made load, 35 rounds with 125 grain sierra pro-hunter heads with +/- 47 grain of N140, just so I had something to play with….only during a small competition on the shooting range I shot with this “inaccurate” bunch a 100,9 out of 100,10 scoring. (So 9 v-bulls and one 10)

With a group of all 10 shots measuring; 1.0770 inch!

Wandering what 125-grain heads will do at say 500 yards….

Back to the reloading table,


Marco <>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 13:59:58 (ZULU)


Something went wrong with above posting...made the posting on Microsoft Word and than pasted it on here but i guess that doesn't work...

If someone doesn't understand my posting/ results, than mail me and i will sent you the corrected posting in Word.


A computer illeterate SkroefKop.

Marco <>
NL - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 14:06:01 (ZULU)

Bla..blabla...Menke.....blabla....benchrest......anal.....Blabla..blagGerman Benchrest Champion..blabla...Gerbiltube....Blaa!

Marco, get off that trip your on now, it´s the wrong train for this site !


torsten <>
g3land - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 15:07:34 (ZULU)



you might be wright that this does not belong on this site since it is not sniper related,

please correct me if i am wrong, but isn't it so that some of the rosterfarians asked me to keep em updated on our trips because they were interested in them??

If my postings are no longer interesting enough, and if the rosterfolks want me to stop posting, than i will stop, but untill that moment i will stay on this chu-chu train, thank you very much...

O, and by the way, my grandfather still wants his bicycle back...

maybe cya on the range T,


Marco <>
The Hague, ZH, NL - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 15:43:09 (ZULU)

Fred Simmons:

As much as love the FAL (and the M14, for that matter), the only solution for the need for a truly accurate gas gun at a reasonable price is one of the AR-10s, IMHO.  The FAL is about a 1.5 MOA gun in standard form, pretty darned good for most applications, but the basic design of the rifle works against you for getting much better than that. You can have DSA fit heavy barrels and floated handguards amd it will no doubt shoot better, but all that costs a fair chunk of money and adds mucho weight. A AR-10T is usually about a 3/4 MOA gun outof the box with no tweaking, and it will *stay* a 3/4 MOA gun for a good long time with little or no fiddling.  The rack-grade guns I have seen shot just over 1 MOA with match ammo.  Neither is cheap, but both are still a good value if accuracy is a big concern. They dont kick bad, either.  :-)  The M14 is simply not a stable enough platform to build a low maintnence sub-MOA rifle on, again IMHO.

Robert French:

I LOVE Howas.  Built several hunting rifles on them for customers.  Very well made, all the best features the Japanese could rip off from the other makers, CHEAP, good barrels, CHEAP, smooth action, did I mention CHEAP?  :-)  They go (bang) and they hit things nicely, but the pride-of-ownership issues with that crude, clunky action...I dunnow. Personaly, I would look at a Howa or the new FN.  How are the FNs appraised on this forum?  I have heard nothing bad as of yet.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 15:58:21 (ZULU)


I was not trying to imply that polygonal barrels were more accurate than a conventionally rifled barrel, I just wanted to have a healthy discussion on the matter.  Sorta like:

Moly vs. non-moly


Winchester vs. Remington

Tasco vs. everything else

I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the point.

On another matter, WHEN an I going to be able to get a HS stock for my SAVAGE??

Semper Fi

Paul <>
VA, - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 16:38:22 (ZULU)


I think that you are a good soldier and not a picky Benchrester. The PSG 1 is great, but getting in bed with Menke and the other stuff really gets me worried. Are you hanging around with the wrong kind of people ?


PS for the Rosterhogs: the bike hint has it´s roots during WW2 when German troops "borrowed" the bikes from a few Dutchmen that did´nt need them anymore.

torsten <>
g3land - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 16:43:49 (ZULU)


 What Paul said!!

 The different barrels and guns I get are all a series of questions and answers for me.  I'm not a duty slotted sniper, I don't ever intend to use the rifles I get for anything other than targets and animals.

 My observations have been similar to your earlier statement that quality products return quality results.

 One thing that I've found to be true across the board, no matter what the product.  There is no magic!!


 I haven't forgotten about you but I've spent all my allowance and am waiting for the next payout.


Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 17:33:20 (ZULU)

Good afternoon, folks!

Poly v rifling:

No flame intended in above mentioned comments, just my humble $0.02.

A lot of different forms of rifling have been attempted, way before our time, but the standard(with a few minor touch ups) rifling form has remained the tried and true.  Poly barrels are made for much less than the 1500 bucks you would have to pay for mine(ha!), but they are formed barrels.  I believe it would be very difficult to maintain standards needed for accurate barrels.

Marco, you could make the comparison between 2 barrels made from the same process and company and come up with different results.  You can't compare the barrels unless you get the data of each barrel: bore and groove dimensions(inch by inch, groove by groove, chamber to muzzle), chamber specs, length of throat, same or different chamber reamer used, type of crown, I could go on and on.

The biggest differences between the different forms of rifling is the pressure spike when the bullet 'catches' the rifling, and the deformation of the bullet as it is spiraling down the bore.  The harder it is for the bullet to form to the rifling, the less stable the bullet will be as it leaves the barrel.  You need to be able to 'grab' the bullet with enough land to keep it in a controlled spin, and your bullet will form to the shape and size of the groove.  I like the sharp (tops of)lands, because they are rigid and smooth, and most of all, practical, it makes sense.

'lito, Marlin tried a few combinations before they stuck with the 12 groove, I could make a 22 groove barrel, it would be very hard on my tooling though!  Plus, I'd be cockeyed from looking down the danged thing.

Hah, 'lito, yeah the radiused groove concept, man, if someone would just start making barrels like THAT!!  hahah...  Ever see the 'progressive' rifling, I can't recall who put their name on it, but the groove was cut progressively deeper on the leading edge of the rifling.  The right side of the groove was .002 or so deeper than the left side.  Looks like a ninja throwing star.  I've made a few barrels like that, by accident, maybe that will be the next 'new' old concept, it would save me a lot of time reworking my tooling.  Hard on the shooter though, with the back pressure and all.  Was a bad idea then, bad idea now.  Definitely not for light skinned bullets!


I usually don't hold them to the same standards as Tactical Joe, cuz they won't shoot anything they have to pay for.  (DoubleHA!)  Just jokin' guys, I know range fees can get outrageous.  :P


JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 18:38:10 (ZULU)


I'll let you know about the Savage stock situation right after I install my heavy barreled action into one.  I've been a waitin' just like the rest of ya, but we're all gonna have to keep waiting for the time being.


JR <>
rapid city, sd, - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 18:45:39 (ZULU)

Steve (FANG)

Did you ever get your rifle back together?  

Semper Fi

Paul <>
- Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 19:23:04 (ZULU)

Terry and Wes, you confirmed what I thought about the Laz cartridges as for tactical/match applications, I wondered if anyone hunted with one.

The Howa, yep I sold mine because I couldn't get a plastic handle for it, these days I would make my own chassis and stick AICS side pannels on it, Robert maybe you should try that, The Howa has a flat bottom, you must be able to get a machineshop to make up a chassis at a reasonable price, then screw the side panels on. Or mill out a PSS stock,drill the action holes right and bed it in there, can't be all that difficult to make it all fit.Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 19:42:17 (ZULU)

Marco, glad to see you got a warm welcome ??

so now you have spent all that money chasing around Europe to find out exactly what I told you weeks ago, for free!! what else did I say, listen to uncle pete and save money.Have you thought about a rifle from one of the guys in the States, I'm sure you could get one there for a lot less than $6000, even with import duty, I forgot you don't like Remmy actions do you.

Hey some of your Cloggyness must have rubbed of on me, we hit down town Heidelberg last night(12 hour session) and I got constantly mistaken for a Dutchman, do I smell of cheese so bad, perhaps I better go see Torsten and pick up the sauer-kraut smell again, so whats this cross border bickering between you two, and are you sure it wasn't the BEF who nicked the Bike trying to make Dunkerque sooner.  chuckle ha ha gruesse. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 20:00:08 (ZULU)


it is gonna take alot more than just cheese and sauer-kraut to get rid of that bacon and eggs oder you brits are spreading...    


And yup, you were wright, thing is, i like to see everything with my own hands (its a dutch thing; looking with your hands) so that's why me maties and i went overseas.

And we did not just look at fergusonss shop, we also did some sight-seeing so it was well worth the money.

And also thought about our American brothers, like i said, haven't ordered a rifle yet, and since i am going to work in the States for 2 months, who knows, maybe they can make me a Remmie fan yet...but it will be hard to beat Fergie.

The selfmade waterfilled-trigger pull gage was made by a friend of mine, it might not be as accurate as an electric gauge but it will get the job done within 25 grams or so.

Border bickering, huh?

I know T, and understand where he is coming from, hey, i respect him alot and his opinions are rated highly by me, but....

(soldier always gotta have a but)

But if i had not replyed to his yedda yedda yedda remark towards my posting, than what kind of rosterfarian would that have made me?

(a pushover-flower in my hair-makelovenotwar scanting-not fit for any uniform-sissy kind of rosterfarian with a pair of pink wooden shoes to match, thats what it would have made me.....)

To T;

Nope, not hanging around with the wrong crowd, just chose a different aproach to the whole long-range shooting.

I am no sniper.

Still like it as a hobby, more sort of a way of live actually, but i like to invest my money first in a very good rifle and get losta long-range time with it, and maybe then i will eventually pick the whole sniper thing up again, in a way as you and Stefan are getting busy with it.

Hope to do some shooting with ya in the near future, T,

Cy'all around,


Marco <>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 22:43:40 (ZULU)

Wes, I made the "Sensor Model" but a guy had it bang on his Harris Bipod so I stopped.LOL   Actually my Muzzle Mitten senses when you fire a bullet throught it.  It then has a hole indicator in it.

Marco, found what you wrote interesting.

I went and spent some cash and ordered a Ghillie fron Custom Concealment.  Very excited waiting for another Blond Ghillie.  This will be the first time I purchased a store bought.

For guys on building your own.  I just got a box from  They have pre shredded material so you dont have to pick them apart.  I am going to do a test between my store bough top of the line and a cheaper version I make.  Just to see whats what.  I made the top like the SEALS store bought and will tie on the jute.

Doc King has helped me out with a bunch oif 338 Ultra loading data.  I pick my rifle up tomorrow from Jerry Rice and will let you know how well it lauches some big bullets soon.


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 22:47:14 (ZULU)

Marco, what the hell are you doin' up at this time of the day? hey do you cloggies ever sleep? I'm up cos' I'm working, Like I said before Callum ferguson is good, if expensive,but 90% of all the Jock stalkers I know use rifles either built or rebarreled by him,classy workmanship. the advantage of buying close to home is for servicing and repairs, lets say you shoot the barrel out, you can jump over the channel and get it rebarreled, and while the work is being done you take your winnie and come deer stalking with me, besides its another reason to visit that beautifull land.

you know what I have been wondering for a couple of weeks now?? do you dutch sniper types have Ghillie suits that match the Tulip fields around Amsterdam, you know like in the song "Tulips from Amsterdam", now that would beat the blonde Ghillie thing,Pete L  

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, August 19, 2001, at 23:34:44 (ZULU)

Kevin Maries... You didn't make it to the Idaho shoot, or I missed

               you. I can't email you directly... I have the

               W95.MTX virus I am still trying to get rid of

Hey guys, Went to the Idaho State Sniper Championship... We didn't

         do so good. I guess it's a bad thing when you shoot all

         the hostages. It was a good time though. Learned alot of

         good stuff, like taking a rifle that is zeroed.


Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, Oregon, USA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 03:35:44 (ZULU)


look at it this way, I just want to take good care of you and save your butt from learning the expensive way.

You´re welcome on "my" 300 Meter range anytime, I made to many, 3 hour drive, trips to Harskamp to shoot 100 Metres next to .30 Carbines.

Maybee we can get PeteL on over and BS a little.


I off to Military Reserve Training for the week, dont know how much time Ì´ll have to ´sign in on the Roster.


torsten <>
g3land - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 05:13:03 (ZULU)

Shooting Question

   Is there a ideal lighting condition to zero a rifle? To my way of thinking the ideal would be an overcast day. Using that as a baseline and making all lighting corrections from that.

Any thoughts appericated.


Bill Byford <>
IL, USA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 05:21:43 (ZULU)

Hey Guys,

    well I thought I would check in on my ghillie suit project. I am in the process of building my first ghillie suit. I have started on the blouse of my bdu. So far I have put on the padding for my elbow and next will be the canvas. I have also glued on parts of my netting. I can see this is going to take some time to complete.

    I told my wife that I was building this suit and she bursted out laughing. She asked me when do I plan to use it and where. After I explained to her why I am building she just shook her head and asked when I am done will I disappear in the apartment when I put it on. I smiled and replied, if you see a new rug then you know where I am. Thought you guys might get a kick out of this. I must say, this is a better reaction then "no, you will not do this."

    Ciao all and may your aim be true, your bullet fly straight and your impact be true.


Semper Fi

Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 12:22:53 (ZULU)

Pete L.:

Don't worry to much about the tullip-associated ghillie, you should see the ones we use for blooming heath-fields (of which we have a lot in "central Netherlands" (about a 15 min drive from either one of the extremes...). The ground turns the brightest purple you have EVER seen and ghillies should too... Makes for a realy funny sight!

Will you be in the Harskamp ranges coming saturday? I will. Looking forward to shaking your hand.

Skroefkop: I'm with Torsten. In native American speak: Buy cheap but accurate thunderstick, shoot lots, win matches, be happy. That would make you: He who spends money on thunderstick better spent on bullets (or firewater...) Any native americans around that can give me the Navajo translation for that? We can use it as an alternative for Skroefkop. Man, I guess this difference of opinion between the two of us will never end. Looking forward to beat you with my $400 SAVAGE!!! ;-)



Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 13:03:57 (ZULU)

Testing ..........

Duman <>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 18:54:27 (ZULU)

Polygonal bores,

Yes, this topic has been thrashed pretty thoroughly.  I would like to point out, to those interested, that W.W. Greener in "The Gun and It's Development" documents many different riflings attempted throughout the years (centuries).  JR alluded to this fact that many have been tried.  Some are even a bit strange, based on our current knowledge.



P.S. - Marius, U-da-man!!

Duman <>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 19:03:09 (ZULU)


You'll notice that the posts for 11 August to 17 August, both inclusive, are "gone".  They have been moved temporarily, as I have not yet written the script that must do the archive, and it is simply too much work to do manually (each post is an individual file).  But I'll do that shortly.  The Roster just got too big to wait until I've finished that, and I'm busy preparing some VERY interesting posts - at least one of which will hopefully go up tonight...

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 19:18:37 (ZULU)

Geez you go off the air for a week and the whole format for the Duty Roster gets a face lift.   Nice work gate keepers..

It was a rough time this past week when my dad past away.  Hope nothing like that happens for a long time to come.  Time to move on.

Any of you collectors out there ever play around with WWII sniper rifles?  Lee-Enfields, Mausers, Mosin-Nagants, etc.  Just courious, seems like it might be an interesting project to put something together.  Any thoughts on a 303 british vs an 8mm Mauser caliber for accuracy ?  It seems the 303 has more choices.  Any tips on types of barrels to avoid if I'm using modern powders in them?    Thanks..  

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 19:38:55 (ZULU)


Spent last evening snooping and pooping the coast mountains of Oregon. Beautiful green, lots of fern, and still fairly quiet. Took my .308 with me...just in case. Saw lots of little critters, but no big ones. Saw VERY fresh Elk Pooh-Pooh! Wife says I'm the only man she know that can get excited about SHIT!

Of course I reminded her that SHE married me!

Letter this morn from Boots Obermeyer. Some semi-classified so can't discuss it in a public forum. He has just had three new National records recorded and confirmed! Beat one of Mid Tompkins old records.

Have tried to snivel a couple barrels out of him. Will let you know how they work.

Undude, muzzle mit repair in progress. Thanks for the tip on the "shot indicator" portion of the instructions.

All for now,




Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR , 97326 - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 19:59:14 (ZULU)

Stefan, I can translate that into Native "Yorkshire" for you, "Barmybugga's got mear brass 'en brains". well I would love to come this weekend, but I'm torn between helping my GD motherinlaw move house and Ferrying a hunting client around the Odenwald looking for wild hogs, guess the hogs win.

I will contact Marco with my shift rota and see if we can organise something.We can rib him about his expensive tastes but we all have to admit, owning a custom rig, built individualy to our specifications, is a special relation ship between man and machine, a love affair, but then kicking ass with an of the shelf "budget" stick is real pleasing, I love it when the German Jagers with all their thousands of dollar walnut clad catwalk rifles see my cammo spray painted rigs, you can read their minds"whats that heap of shit?" but when they see the clover leafs and ragged holes then they have to take note. Pete.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 20:23:49 (ZULU)


Sorry to hear about your loss - mine was 19 years ago this November.  I was 18, busy with first year exam at University.  It sucks any time!

Our prayers go out to you and your family.


Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 21:07:11 (ZULU)


I have posted the one Article, too tired now for the others.  Click on my name, or go to the Articles section - and enjoy.  Very good piece.

Thanks to Slugboy for this.

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 21:09:25 (ZULU)


Your family will definately be in our prayers. Take Care My Friend..

On a lighter note:


It is EXCEPTIONAL(Bold & Underlined) and we at Sniper Country are honored he allowed us to post it.

BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 21:32:19 (ZULU)

Anyone seen the headlines today " 5 DEAD IN CALIFORNIA STABBING RAMPAGE " I guess knives will soon be banned. Surely Kalifornia can not sit idly by and let an obvious menace such as this go unregulated. I say no more foreign knife imports and a mandatory 5 day waiting period with FBI check before a knife purchase. After all it is our "social duty " to keep all people safe from themselves and others.

Sorry for the off topic post, just some sarcastic humor for the Hogs.


drmarc <>
Hillbilly, USA - Monday, August 20, 2001, at 23:34:44 (ZULU)

drmarc,,, agree....thats exactly what I thought when I saw the channel 5 news,

Peter lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 00:10:59 (ZULU)


I'm sorry for your loss.  My prayers are with you.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
Reston, VA, - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 00:12:24 (ZULU)

Thanks to everyone on the 6.5 X 284 info.  As soon as I find a suitable action in my price range I am going to start building one.

I would like to hear from the people who own and shoot 03A3’s.

I have one (REM. 4-43 3721XXX) that needs the wood on it replaced on it.

The original S type stock has a crack behind the tang. I would like to replace it with a C type. Glass bed, pillar bed, and free float.

What type of competitions can I still shoot this rifle in.  Do these changes and maybe a new trigger keep me from shooting in the older service rifle competitions.

I want to keep all the original parts on hand so that I can put it back in the original condition if I need to.

Also does anyone know how to tell if the bolt matches the receiver on these rifles.  All the other marks seem to match. But the only mark on the bolt is a circle R on the extractor band.

The site is looking great!


Eric <>
- Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 00:13:51 (ZULU)

Moe - et. al. RE AR-15

I am off and not on email but here goes - my bitch was with the way the man portrayed his info.  'lito jumped his ass too not just me.  My issue was that his info was plain dead wrong and he attempted to potray it as field dotrine from a BTGtT-S attitude.

Hey as much as I hate to have it pointed out when I am all F*cked up - I try (and it is really hard sometimes) to see the error - admit it and start relearningthe correct methods.


Kevin (of the GWN) <>
Canada - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 00:42:38 (ZULU)

The newest article is well written and extremely informative.  Coming from Slugboy, though, the high quality is of no surprise.  It translates very easily from English to American.  I very quickly figured out that his meaning of "cadre" was slightly different from ours.

Mark <>
- Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 00:44:20 (ZULU)


Prayin'for ya, man

...and this too,  shall pass.


ref: shooting the star out

Thanks for the strategy my man!!!


It's been a while, I've been a busy boy...getting ready to go back to school :)  actually excited!!!  Had a great summer working for Montana Armory/C. Sharps Arms.  These fellas are truly top notch, you are missing out if you don't get to know them.  (Plus, we make a hell of a riffle too ;))  New purchases, well, I got an H&R 1871 in .223, man it's been a prairie dog killin' machine!!!  Just got an SKS as well, just because I wanted one, now I'm planning on another gun...don't know whether it will be in the hunting/sharpshooting category or assualt weapon category.  Maybe I'll get two ;)  Oh yeah, definately need a .44 mag...BUT, I need your guys' advice, I found a Taurus .44 mag, 3" barrel (ouch) shaved hammer, rubber grips, I've pretty much fallen in love w/ it, but don't know how well it will shoot, or whether my hand will survive a box of shells...based on the above descrip, would you guys go for it, or should I hold out on the ported barrel, 6" model?

Well, it's great to be back on the board,

God Bless, and shoot straight,


Ben <>
- Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 01:32:34 (ZULU)

Kevin (of the GWN)...

I don't think Moe was on your case... the guy was waggin' his weenie with BS bravado, and got caught by five or six guys in his lies.

He didn't know enough about shooting at 600yds, to even be a good liar.

He sits home and reads books, and has fantasies about shooting.


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 01:33:56 (ZULU)

Kevin (OTGWN) -

I didn't mean for my comment to sound like I was dumping on you.  I was actually trying to stir up the folks here to go see the BS that was being bandied about by 11bravo.

I was going to make some counter points to his crap but you and 'lito were doing such a good job I decided to lay low and watch the fun unfold.  You guys made very viable, valuable comments and were basically just poo-poo'd by him.

Unfortunately, 11bravo seems to have his head buried too far into his manuals (and other dark wet places).  He seems to take anything in print as gospel without taking into consideration real world circumstances and conditions from those who have BTDT.

The guy seems to be coming across as an active duty slotted sniper but has yet to identify his unit.  If he IS active duty, well, his thought patterns really bother me - and others.

Sorry for the confusion!  :-)

Speaking of 600 yard headshots - I finally got to shoot the gas gun at 600 yards today.  Colt R6551 with A2 barrel and sights and 1/7 twist.  Black Hills 75 gr match reloads.  Standard NRA hi-power target.  All shots from the prone with a sling.  50 shots.  5 misses.  30 inside the "8" ring including 2 "X"s.  What a RUSH!  Now I need to practice, practice, practice!  Amazing what the wind does that far out.  Hmmmmm.....

'Lito and Bolt - it was 102 degrees (11 am) on the field , no shade and humid as all hell.  Even the cows were in the tree line!


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 03:24:34 (ZULU)

TonyY... Sorry about your loss. I lost my Mom in '82, and my Dad 10 years later. They'll always be there with you.

You mentioned playing with the WW2 rifles. My friend from work has been doing just that. He built a nice O3A4 clone, and 3 Moisin-Nagant snipers with varying results. I have his second M-N. It has an original scope and mount on a proper 1942 rifle. I'm going to shoot it tomorrow and see how it does. He's looking for a German scope now for his Mauser project.

Take care, Tim

Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 05:18:51 (ZULU)

Hello again,

I was hoping someone might point me in the direction of the best priced cleaning gear for a .308 PSS.

I need to get everything, rod, guide, jags, patches, brushes, and anything else I might be forgetting.  I have solvent for my other rifle.

I would rather not buy all this stuff from 5 differnt stores.  Is there a one stop shop out there with good deals?

Thanks for your ongoing help.


Magnus <>
Tempe, Arizona, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 07:19:51 (ZULU)


NEAT JOB!!!!!At least someone here had a fun summer....... ;-)

Me, I'd pass on the 3" Taurus, did the Jovino/Horton? 3" .44 thing in the 1980's. Nice to carry, great for "Kissing Distance" shots, if projectile misses you still immolate them with muzzle flash.  

The ONLY .44 "mini" in my posession is a 1988 vintage Ruuu, Ruuug...., Bisley model, Bbl. chopped to the end of ejactor rod housing, Colt wide spur ejactor head, 6064 Aluminum semi-Croft type cylinder pin head, Wolff trigger kit, & custom Bubinga wood stocks. One day before Y3000-I'll finish building it the way I want it to be


A subtle suggestion:


Of course, Patron 'Lito carries a 3" .44 Mag loaded with 180 gr. Federals in an ankle holster when Cat stalking.

We now take you back to your regularly scheduled Sniping Program :-)

Big City, By-Gawd, - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 10:26:08 (ZULU)

Magnus, check out Sinclair has everything you're looking for and their prices are about the same as everywhere else. They also have a bunch of other reloading and shooting goodies so make sure they send you a catolog too when you order.

Rob01 <>
- Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 12:38:14 (ZULU)

Tony - sorry to hear about your loss...

Magnus - Take a look at

I bought the "regular rifle cleaning stuff" as opposed to the "sniper kit" works just as good, even without the word "sniper" in the description... I have all but retired my coated cleaning rod and use the otis stuff packs up real nice and if you buy the little solvent bottles from sinclairs, you can fit all the cleaning gear you will ever need into a US Mil surplus first aid box for very little $$..

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 14:05:47 (ZULU)

Moe - I was not thinking you were dumping on me - I just wanted new viewers to understand my intent.  I could have given a better synopsis but just wanted a quick and dirty one.

Darren Dong - Sorry can't reply via email, and was confused by the what you meant  - but Jerry used the standard Remington Recoil Lug - the scope bases I have used are - Richard Near (45 MOA) and the Badger. Rings Badger - and of course  No bedding (tee hee)

Chompin at the bit to get back home so I can start launching the HSM 175gr ammo.

Kevin (of the GWN) <>
Canada - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 14:18:23 (ZULU)

Kevin, just wondering how your rifle is holding up to all the wear and tear of field work. Also, just wondering if you have the standard Remington trigger guard or do are you using the Badger instead.


Semper Fi

Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 14:58:44 (ZULU)

Re WWII rifles: If anyone's interested in those, I happened to have a couple of the M44 carbines when I went to see "Enemy at the Gates". Just for jiggles, I took the oldest one, 1943 Soviet manufacture with a pristine bore, to the range.  Shot 1" groups at 100 yds. with the standard open sights.  They are still available for about $70, if you know where to look.  Now, I know it ain't a scalpel, but how many other rifles can you buy with pocket change, throw in the rifle rack or behind the seat, and know you can use it out to 200 yds with any confidence?  No worries about the dings and scratches, glass, whatever.  If a Siberian goat herder of soviet kulak can't hurt it, it's damn near un-hurtable.  Try one, you might like it.  Be sure to see if you can check the bore first, 'cause some of them look like the inside of a septic tank.

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 15:39:12 (ZULU)


Last week we did a number of stalks.  I stalked with and without the drag-bag.  I realized what was really important when I had to do a stalk prior to a cold bore shot for record.  There was no way my SWS was coming out of that drag-bag.  This came as a real eye-opener for me. When I knew that I'd have to shoot for keeps after the stalk I decided on the drag-bag.  I figure that should become my SOP.  I'll have to rely on my PDW during the movement phase and just keep my SWS in the bag until deployed into the FFP.  I'm also going to add a padded scope cover to my kit.

Ref: Ghillie Mods.

I'm going to remove all net and garnish from the elbows down.  I kept getting tangled on stuff like the bolt handle and scope knobs.  I gotta put a ventilation panel in the back.  Suspenders are a must.  Otherwise my third iteration suit worked pretty well.

Ref: Gas Guns

My partner showed up with a borrowed M1A with a Gen-3 SA mount.  After twenty minutes on the line I said, "Boy, that rifle's gonna break your heart."  He decided to borrow my spare rifle and qualified with it. (I loaned him my new M40A1.  Am I a nice guy or what?)

Ref: Binoculars

Can't do without them.  It's time to spend the money and get a good pair.....I'm guessing Steiner....suggestions?

Ref: Ammunition & Heat

My loads were 40.0 grains of IMR-4895 pushing 168 SMKs.  The rifle had been zeroed in 60 degree temperatures.  At the school it was 90 degrees.  My zero had gone a full inch high at 100 yards.  Unremarkable....but illustrative.

Final word: Hydrate or Die.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 16:07:19 (ZULU)


  I will add one final word to yours, "VARGET" no impact change due to temp. changes. Try it you will love it!!


  Sorry to hear about your father, I lost mine right after I came back from Nam and it was really tough on me. My prayers and thoughts will be with you.

  I finished loading ammo last night and will pack everything tomorrow and head out for the D&L Shoot in Wyoming, its suppose to be a big one this year. If any of you guys are going please look me up I would love to meet you.

  I came down with a summer cold sunday and have really been under the weather. I hope I can shake it by friday when the field courses start. You guys play nice while I am gone, will catch up when I get back, keep your powder dry!!

Pat <>
- Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 16:23:21 (ZULU)

Ok, played with the powder system from hell this weekend....results of one load tested as follows;

50 rounds .308 winchester in prepped and turned Lapua with Fed210 primer and 43.5 grains of 4064. Case full but not compressed.

Temp 98 degrees F, humidity 87% at the firing line.


Velocity       2700 fps average

Extreme spread 3

Deviation      1

More testing to follow.  May have been a fluke, but this is the 2nd in a series of tests with similar results.

Got to go digest illicit substances for this freakin ear infection, more later.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 16:47:28 (ZULU)

Guys: Nice site here!

Met one of you that said this was "home" at a recent service rifle comp here locally, got the site address. I'd say who, but he asked that his name not be brought up (?), but said that if I mentioned a M-25, everyone would know...... OK. Good coach.

As advertised, this is a long range shooters paradise. I'll be tossing in two cents every now and again if the non-spacegun service rifles are brought up (GRIN), and there's any want.

Jim <>
Sin City, Nevada, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 18:37:34 (ZULU)

Marco, I felt I just had to share an experience with you.. I'm sat at this computer,looking at the roster, large glass of Auchentoshan malt whisky in my hand, look over my right shoulder out the open window, 2 roe deer feeding on the clover field, (hang on a mo) 126 lazer measured meters away, man I've got it good,what an OP.

Chris (fatboy) did you copy the above, the drive home didn't kill me, hope your both suitably green with envy, maybe you'all should stop by for a beer, down the range tommorow with Heym, Rem green stick,, looking forward to it, PETE:  

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 19:07:19 (ZULU)

Just a thanks for all the warm thoughts and prayers.   God Bless..

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 19:22:31 (ZULU)

Darren, in the AICS it has its own - the polymer stock pannels form the trigger guard - they are quite thick the trigger can't really get touched - place some gun tape   front and back to keep crap out of the mech but it is solid.  There are some pics in the article in the review section  (gun has gone some cosmetic changes since).  The B&L made way for the MkIV M3 (better field scope but range scores have dropped)

Kevin (of the GWN) <>
- Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 23:19:42 (ZULU)

Tony, sorry to hear about your dad.  Like Derrick Martin dedicates in his new book, "We're holding a space on the firing line for him."

Howdy, boys.  Back in town for a few days before heading up to Kevin and Andy's neck of the woods (Rochester, New York).

Being a grumpy old man I can now freely bitch about gun butchers, money that could otherwise be spent on bullets and powder, and a bunch of other generic things under the sun (just because I AM old and grumpy).

Spent a long weekend in Kansas City, Missouri, and got to meet our good man, George Gardner of G.A. Precision gunsmithing.

I don't think I'm a hard man to impress, but you could have quoted me something like this when seeing some of George's work:

"Cool.  Wow.  WOW.  HOLY Cow, I gotta get one of those!"

I've spent some money (some well spent, some not so well) over the years on rifles and pistols to improve performance.  If you have any doubts whether or not you're going to get your money's worth out of a gunsmith, I can heartily and personally recommend maybe a half-dozen guys across the country.  George Gardner's one of the tops.  (Shameless free plug here, George!).  Got to meet and talk with Marty of Badger Ordnance as well -- a bona fide great pair of men, who really know weapons and machinery.

On the 6.5 x 284 Fag Mag, I didn't say it was a bad round, just that it seemed to eat up barrels.

Darren, for the love o' God, man, don't shred burlap in the house (the wife will go ballistic)!

Marco and Stefan, I'd have to say the most disappointed I've ever been in my Dutch counterparts was watching the Royal Marines unloading a pallet from a Fokker F-27 on the Port au Prince (Haiti) ramp.  I didn't know you guys even brewed NON ALCOHOLIC Grolsch!  Sheesh!

Magnus in Tempe, Arizona:  you should probably give Bruno's Shooter Supply a call (they're local, in Phoenix, and they carry EVERYTHING.  623-587-7641).

Great article, Slugboy.

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 02:12:35 (ZULU)

Off the 'sniping' topic, has anyone developed a load for lead (actually a 350 gr gc bullet).480 Rugers?  (Yes, I also have a .44 Super Redhawk with mag-na-ported 2 1/2" barrel...)



Larry Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 02:20:17 (ZULU)

Ref: 21st Century M1D

I'm going to pick up my M1 from the riflesmith on Sunday.  I got the "full Monte" done to it for service rifle comps.

I was just thinking.  Imagine a scout scope on a M1 with hold over dots.  Have any of you seen such a set up?


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 10:56:20 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

I just got this in from the anti-antigun list... Good news though slightly off topic.  I thought I'd share with everyone here.  


Begin message...

From:                   "Maadi-Griffin" <>

To:                     <>

Subject:                Re: BOB......Re: threat from prosecutor

Date sent:              Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:01:18 -0700

Angel, I just got my rights restored yesterday by Arizona  Superior

Court Judge Ellis.  YES!! It is true, and the order was made

retroactive to 16 August 1998!!!!!!!  That means that the felony in

possession charges go out the window, and the fraudulent search

warrant should go also, but the feds are going to fight this to the


end.  After all THEY HAVE TO HIDE THEIR ERROR.  And the

only way that they can coverup their error is to attack and prosecute

and imprision to silence me! The Lord has worked a miracle here in a

very timely fashion.  IT is a MIRACLE, Angel!  This will change

everything in court.   I'll keep you posted. The trial is still


for tomorrow at 8:30 AM WE need the court room packed!!!!!!

Thanks. Yours in Freedom, Bob

BCR #226 <>
- Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 12:15:20 (ZULU)

BCR #226...

Not of topic at all... it looks like we might win one for a change.


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 12:37:35 (ZULU)


 You just reminded me of a bumper sticker I saw.

 It read, "Cat The Other White Meat"


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 13:10:58 (ZULU)


Dave L., our esteemed Lt.Col took a shot at the 6.5 X .284 (Fag Mag) indicating short barrel life. I agree, in part.

HOWEVER, I specifically chose this round to fill the niche of the.300 Winch Mag. with less recoil. It does that in spades. Recoil of the .308 and trajectory of the 190 gr/Win mag. The .300 offers no benefits over the 6.5 that I have seen.

Let's face it, we could all make do with the .308 for sniping(anti- personnel) and the .338 Lapua or .50 cal. for anti-material work.

Luckilly, I have the the M40A1, M25, and the M40A1 in 6.5 x .284. For me it just doesn't get better than that...

'Lito, It works on cats, too!

Semper Fi,


(Sometimes the FagMeister)

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett(Rainy Oregon), Oregon, USA - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 16:46:01 (ZULU)

Kevin, since you asked, yes I have seen a Garand done similar to what you're talking about. It had the Leupold long eye relief (scout) scope on it, but was shortened by someone to the tanker configuration. I've never liked the tankers myself, maybe it's just 'cause I'm used to the real thing. Unfortunately, it required some kind of funky block on the barrel that came up through a butchered rear handguard. I didn't get a chance to look at it closely enough (as in strip it down) to tell how the block was connected to the barrel. For quick shots in the 300 yard range (our max rapidfire area) it was really cool, kept up with most of the guys shooting the last of the REAL US military rifles. I don't see why that Leupold couldn't be traded off for one with hold over dots (or lines?), and used on a non-butchered Garand. Bet it would make quite the nice little set-up!

Jim <>
Sin City, Nevada, USA - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 17:53:54 (ZULU)

I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with the HS Prescision take down rifles? I have read Undudes review of the HS rifle but this was not the take down version. I specificly wanted to get feedback on how well the system return to point of aim and how well the accuracy holds up with use.

Thanks for the info.

AppleMan <>
WA, USA - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 17:57:35 (ZULU)


Actually, I have quite a lot of respect and admiration for the 6.5 X 284, and if I had the money I'd build one, along with a .300 WSM.  My point was it seems to be an exceptional long-range bullseye round, but may not have the kinetic energy "ass" behind it to penetrate limited cover barrier materials (sandbags and berms).

Norm Crawford shot his at Perry, and at 1700 rounds he said it was shot out.  Still, he scored a 1436-60X (out of 1450 possible) for second overall at the National High Power Rifle Long Range Championships (shot at 600 and 1,000 yards, along with the 45 rounds of 7.62 at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards).

Sinister Dave <>
- Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 18:52:31 (ZULU)

Any of you guy's have experience or second hand info on the Blaser R93 Tactical?

Looking to buy one in 7.5x55 swiss (local conditions dictate). Also, is it safe to assume it will be as accurate in this calibre as the .308? As far as I'm aware it's the same bullet, just pushed a bit slower (average is about 2580 fps). We get some really good 7.5 swiss match ammo over here loaded up with 168, 175 or 190grn SMK's.

Any and all comments gratefully received !!


Might be a double post, if it is appologies.

Jon Endacott <>
Buy any firearm you want, just don't SHOOT it, Switzerland - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 18:52:49 (ZULU)

Can anyone tell me anything about Lisenfeld scopes?  I think they also were sold under the "Jaguar" moniker.  I have an 8x56 that someone wants to trade.  Any info on the maker, quality and/or worth would be greatly appreciated....

Charles S. Hunt <>
San, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 19:45:15 (ZULU)

Jon Endacott...

The 7.5x55 Swiss will shoot equal to the .308... it is an excellent cartridge.


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 20:42:44 (ZULU)

Evening all,

3 working days have passed since my 3 week holiday and every-one was a blast, really gonna miss my job.

Tony, my dutch sympathies are with you, sorry to hear about your loss.


looking forward at shooting at "your" range, it will be more easily for me to explain to you my "actions" regarding to the type of rifle i want to built.Just give me a call/ mail, any day will do except between 03-09-'01 and 14-09-'01, than i'll be in Bergen-Belsen for a 2 week live-firing excercise, (staying at camp Oerbke). And ofcourse do some shooting with ya, and you can finally meet my "little friend", the PSG-1.And if PeteL can come aswell, we can have us a little euro-trash competition at 300 meters, besides BS-ing a little and hey, maybe we can finally set things straight about who's beer rules, German, UK or Dutch beer.(maybe some of our american friends have noticed i did not mention american beer.....INCOMING!!)

Stefan, Stefan, Stefan,

(me shaking my head with a look full of pitty)Beating me with a S-s-s-s-s.....avage??? That, my friend, is as they say, a BET!!


(that was a white glove slapping the fleshy, very fleshy, cheek of Stefan)Cya coming saturday on the 300 meter range, so bring along your stick and your best ammo,"NEJAH-MANNY-TOOHAH-WINNETOOWANNABE-KEJAH-HAWAHEY"(translated from navajo; "He who shoots lotsa ammo through a stick that looks like a Sniper rifle but shoots like a muzzle-loader")We will do a 10 shot group at a normal punten-schijf with the winnie, 10 shots with your Savy and 10 with "my liiitle friend" each, and then post the results on the roster, ok, hombre?


To PeteL;

The deer thing i don't mind, see them everyday from my office, (my batalion is located amids deer-country), but the whiskey-thing in the boss's lucky SOB!! ;)Like with T, just give me a date and i'll hop on over and bring some alcoholic refreshment along with my "boom-stick", my guess is that "NEJAH-MANNY-TOOHAH-WINNETOOWANNABE-KEJAH-HAWAHEY" would like to come too, so...

To Sinister Dave;

the way you feel about George Gardner, that's exactly the way i feel about Callum Ferguson, ones you have had one of his sticks in your hands your sold! O, and about the non-alcoholic beer, ofcourse you were disapointed, you were watching "Royal Marines"...that explains it all.(royal marines, pffgg...sounds like a french hamburger; "mc-royall")

I am busy with...hmm, post is becoming to long, i will write about my latest task in a new post.


Marco <>
the Hague, ZH, NL - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 20:51:15 (ZULU)

To John Endacott;

Have not shot a BLaser yet, but during a 300 meter competition there was a team from the south of Holland of 3, a man, a woman and a 19 year old boy, who all owned and shot the straight-pull Blaser R93 tactical in .308, and they finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, with the woman in the first place.

And this was during a competition amidst Steyer SSG's, Winchesters, Remingtons, Benchrest rifles in 6BR and a $8000 USD costing AMP DSR1.

So my guess is, it can't be a bad stick...

I am busy with a interesting little topic, going to teach the nco's and co's of our company how to work and teach with the newly accuired night vision equipment.

Been playing around the last couple of days with 2 "gotta-have's".

For our Diemaco c7a1's and c8a1's we got a nifty piece of image intensifier called Munos WS4, it weighs 850 gramms, intensifies around 50,000 times, has a 4 power magnification, 2 knobs on the right-side for elevation and horizontal correction, a dioptrie ring and a focus ring.

The other "wanna-have" is even better, it's a heat-sensing monoculair called "lion", (have no idea what the wright english translation is, it is the same principle as the nightscope on a TOW rocket-launcher), has the size of a LEICA Geovid rangefinder, weighs roughly little over a kilogram, works auto or manually with Brightness, Focus, 3 or 6x magnification and Contrast, makes no sound and picks up human shapes up to a 1000 meters and tank shapes up to around 2000 meters, (beyond also for the more experienced but for most it becomes blurry).

No Ghillie is going to hide you from this scope...

Real grown-man toys...and a defeneat serious edge during combat.

For those interested i can mail the whole testing, but specs like how many lux etc. are still classified, not trying to sound important, just the way things are.

0500 reveilly, so it's bed time for me,

Cy'all around,


Marco <>
the Hague , ZH, NL - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 21:57:09 (ZULU)


The bet is on! I just spent some hours behind the reloading bench and made myself a set of SCHWEET rounds. I just hope they'll perform as schweet as they look.... Did my moly-thing and found just the right duration for the tumbler. Just forgot to use my stopwatch... Typical! These look similar, if not better, than the Silverjackets!

Oh, BTW, that LION thing is called a thermal imager and LION stands for "lightweight infrared observation night" (individueel, stapelbaar, .....   :-) Insiders joke!) If you guys wanna see this work of art, check this out:

Also, there will be pictures of both devices on my site real soon! I'll try to photograph the image they display so you guys can see for yourself!

Sinister Dave: Yup, alcohol-free everything over here! We are so friggin' PC that if we'd be Scottish instead of Dutch, we'd make alcohol-free Single Malt Whiskey! (Mind you, it would taste just as shitty as everything else that's supposed to have alcohol in it but doesn't!

Signing off! Got to get up early tomorrow....


"He who shoots lotsa ammo through a stick that looks like a Sniper rifle and kicks H&K's butt!"

Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 23:08:11 (ZULU)


Is that night site the same type as that of the dragon anti-tank weapon?  I wonder because it did seem to work pretty well to pick up heat, albeit everything was shades of red and pretty damn heavy.  If it could be scaled WAY down and the coolant bottle could be integrated, this may make a formitable night vision scope.  Only problem would be, in complete darkness, picking up foliage in the initial flight path of the boooolet I would think.  Any comments??


Chris <>
Stinkin' Hot again.., Midd-Tenn, - Wednesday, August 22, 2001, at 23:20:10 (ZULU)

Slug Boy read your article and thought it was very well done.

Marco got the email will take care of you.

Now a point that will not make a few happy.  I have seen less and less on here about sniping/shooting.  I dont know if its the format change the passwords or what but something is wrong.  We have talked about this before but I wish we could generate some interest on the DR for a more professional forum.  Sorry but all the cutesy stuff makes me just exit the site with no comment.  This is not an attack and I will not pick on anyone specifically.

Now you guys can just discount what I said but ask yourselves where are the pros going?  Not much from the guys who really do this lately?

Here come the flames.


Mike Miller <>
Calif, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 00:04:44 (ZULU)

Hey CatShooter,

Is your AR 50 very accurate? What are you putting through it, and at what yardage etc?

and of course:

Isn't it slightly overkill for cats? : )

anyone got any old mildot masters that they've memorized that they want to sell cheap?

anyone know of any long distance ranges near Little Rock?


I'm getting ready to do an article on "How to jump in feet first and get paint on your weapon". It will be step by step with photos and such. Should be complete in a couple weeks.

buk <>
ThankGodClintonIsntIn, Arkansas, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 01:10:48 (ZULU)

Just shot the win. mag. off hand 3 rds. at 200....adds new depth to the meaning of humility........gotta go dry fire some more.....from the bench, to the bi-pod,to prone,to sitting, and now off-hand...very depressing reality....but I hate to waste that trip to Wyo. this fall.

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 01:46:41 (ZULU)


Yes, the AR-50 is quite accurate.

I'm using 235 grains of 5010-PD powder with the API, M8's, and M17 LRTs... all weighing in the vicinity of 650-ish grs

... and 205 grains of 5010-PD for those gorgeous 840 grain M48's... definitly a "Blast" (couldn't hep it!)

And about 235 grains of H50BMG with the 750 gr A-Maxs.

I'm doing load testing at 200yds... and yeah it's a little bit big for cats!


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 02:22:36 (ZULU)

Mike M.,

I remember when I first found the SC website. There was lots of posts from "Professional Snipers" on the Roster. Was just about an even mix of us "Professional Competitors"(lol), and the "Real Snipers". Guys were always fired up about meeting at a sniper shoot, or getting together to attend sniper classes around the country.

Topics ranged from equipment, training schools, how-to articles, etc. I know there are still lots of good posts, but it does seem that for some reason that the personality of the Roster has changed. I think you are right Mike. It is the lack of the professionals that has changed. I don't know why. I can't believe that it was because of having to register to post on the DR.


Nice article. Thanks for sharing that with us. Marius, thanks making it available.


How would you compare the AR50 to the other 50 BMG rifles out there? The only 50 cal I have shot is the Barrett M82A1, and a Semi Auto Browning M2HB. The Browning is for sale.


Bill B <>
KY, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 02:50:45 (ZULU)


came across a website that made a reference to " both constant and gain-twist barrels...".

Is anybody familiar with gain-twist barrels ? I came across this and I am trying to find more info about it.

Any suggestions ?



Ares <>
Canton, Ohio, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 05:06:57 (ZULU)


As far as .50 Cals go, I've shot the Barrett M99, M82A1, AR-50, Big Bertha and a full auto Ma Deuce.

My choice is the M99, it's accurate as hell and more portable than any of the others.  

The M82A1 didn't impress me that much, just a personal thing I guess.

The AR is heavy as a Mack Truck.  Apparently they designed it for a larger soviet round, but then chambered it for the increasingly poplular 50 at the last minute.  If you don't mind the weight, it's a good benchrest gun.

The State Arms (i think)has the shell plate design which I don't like.  Just one more thing I"m likely to lose.

The full auto rocks!  I know it sounds childish, but goddamn it's fun.  Not a sniper weapon, but you could take out a plattoon at 1000 yards with your eyes closed.

Thanks for the help on all the cleaning gear questions.

I apologize for coming to a professional BB with an amateurs enthusiasm.  I am new to rifles and long range, but am facinated by the challenge of it all.  I may be a professional yet, as I am joining up with the local ROTC/National Guard this week.  Who knows, I might be able to shoot Uncle Sam's ammo for a change.



Magnus <>
Tempe, Arizona, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 05:37:32 (ZULU)


Tonight was range night for me. My partner was not able to make it, so I played the "Lone Ranger".

Did some work with my .308 M40A1 clone using 190 gr. Bergers that have shot so well in the past. First round downrange (cold bore shot) was a full 1.5" below my normal POI. Looking through my data at home I did a comparison and was NOT surprised to find my best and most consistent groups have been with the following load:

Sierra 175 Gr. BTHP Match King (seated 2.800" OAL)

Lapua .308 Match Brass

44.0 Gr. Hogdon's VARGET

Federal 210 Match Primer

This load has been giving 1/2 MOA groups to 600 yards, on an average.

For the tactical shooter consistency and uniformity are probably the most important aspects relating to accuracy. One reason M852 has always shot so well. My pet .308 load has earned my respect.


The same should be said about our equipment. Buy the best you can afford. My rifle, like the ammo/load, has my respect. Why? Because every time I pick it up it shoots point of aim/point of impact with my pet load.

Case in point: Tonight I was shooting up some Berger 190's. They group well, but no better that the Sierra 175's, IMHO. Plus they are SPENDY. The 190's grouped a full 1.5 MOA below my normal POI. When done shooting 25 rounds I cleaned the rifle, let it cool, and fired a cold bore shot with the 175 gr. pet load. Result was the small diamond comprising the "center" of the target just "disappeared". Leaving a perfect .30 hole dead center...point of aim/point of impact!

If things every get real "serious" this would be my duty weapon of choice and load.

What I'm getting at, is that if you find a combination that "works" stick with it and practice, practice, practice! You'll discover that the team of rifle/equipment/ammo will earn your respsect, too.

Just finished reading Mark Lonsdale's books on Sniping. Well written and thought out, but as always, just general information. No real "good gouge". Still, it is food for thought.

Am waiting for my cannister of VARGET to get here. Then I can load, chronograph, and test my production loads without having to worry about lot changes for awhile...:-)

Semper Fi,


(Who REALLY needs a .308 12-step program)

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett,, Rainy Oregon, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 06:19:44 (ZULU)


I am just entering the hunter's society (unfortunately here in Poland

you have to be a hunter in order to get a gun permit) and soon enough

will be looking for a long long range precision shooting rifle (due to my strong interest of taking challanges in marksmanship). I've

been looking at TRG due to it's good quality, 1/2 MOA  factory guarantee and fairly reasonable price. Though I still am not sure weather to go for the 21 or 41 (or 22/42 - by the way, what is the difference???). Maybe somebody has an experience in long range shooting with both - which one will be the more accurate?

Back in the past (my highschool years) I used to shoot a competition '22 averaging 380/400 with PB of 386 but somehow gave it up ever since. However it has never left me at all and I get to shooting at almost every oncomeing ocasion.

As for the rifle itself I will probably have to import it (SAKO I'll try to acquire directly from Finland) but there is a various range of optics available on the domestic market - personally I've given a serious thought to Svarovsky's optics but maybe you have some better experience with others recomenationworthy.

Unfortunatelly here in Poland long range competition shooting

is not very popular and really do not have anyone on the spot to

seriously talk to. Most of the competitions (even the national hunter's shooting contest) are with the range of 100 to most of the 200m shooting.

I will be gratefull for any support and


Best rgds


RoadRunner <>
Poland - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 09:48:07 (ZULU)


 WTF???  This site and forums content are what you (collectively)make of it.

The fantasty of a perfect website, is like the perfect woman


The password and new format have NOTHING to do with it. I believe LESS "Trolls" are getting in and stirring the pot.

If they do, I (or one of the other Council members)WILL TAG THEM permanently. Bank on IT!!!!

Lately, Some good people have come through with articles out of the goodness of their hearts and willingness to share information. The Sniper Country Council is most greatfull for this, TRUST ME!

Others, well, They seem to be unable to REALLY walk the walk, or talk talk the talk. or Keep promises of providing materials.

Yes- You could say that is a challenge without naming names......

Hopefully, you will not get any flames for speaking the truth, this IS NOT meant to be one.

Have a special kinda day, I will ;-)

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 10:26:57 (ZULU)

Mike wrote:

"Now a point that will not make a few happy.  I have seen less and less on here about sniping/shooting.  I dont know if its the format change the passwords or what but something is wrong.  We have talked about this before but I wish we could generate some interest on the DR for a more professional forum.  Sorry but all the cutesy stuff makes me just exit the site with no comment.  This is not an attack and I will not pick on anyone specifically."


 You really got me thinking on this one.  You are correct that we don't see much traffic from the likes of Rick or Gooch or Dave anymore.  My guess is that as professionals they are busy "walking the walk" and post only when they have something meaningful to say or just want to touch base.

 Now the vast majority of us don't carry a badge or get a LES once a month.  For me those days are long gone.  But be advised that among this little community there are a number of us "40/50 somethings" that still "walk the walk" albeit with a limp left over from the days when we did get a LES once a month.

 Webster's defines professional as, "1.of, engaged in, or worthy of the high standards of, a profession" In the third definition it speaks of "earning one's living from an activity".

 If to be considered a professional you must earn your living as a sniper then I guess there are very few of them posting to this board.  However many of us are indeed "engaged in and are worthy of the high standards of the profession".

 Speaking only for myself I can say that I approach this art/science/craft with a passion and commitment equal to or greater than that held by many "professionals".  I just returned from a week long sniper school (my fifth) where I was the only student that was not an operator.  I was as fit, well equipped, motivated and better trained than anyone in the class.  I performed all the exercises and qualified just like the others.  But, if we must use Webster's third definition, I am an amateur/hobbiest.

 Do I wish we could explore some more meaningful topics here? Yes!

 Would I like less "cutesy stuff"?  Hell, that's just part of the banter and the board would become unbearably dry without it.

 Has this board been abandoned by the real "professionals" because of these things?  I don't know.  But if that is the case then those professionals are obviously not part of the solution.

 No Nomex needed here Mike.  Everyone on this board recognizes that you are on the cutting edge and "walk the walk" everyday.  Your opinions are held in high esteem by anyone that knows you.  I guess you hit a nerve with the "professional" thing.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 11:52:23 (ZULU)


I think you have a point, the roster has become less informative lately, but IMHO that has nothing to do with the registering thing.

The way I see it there are two reasons for this lack of input:

1. A lot of it has been said already. There's only so much you can discuss on a forum like this and when it has all been said, it has all been said. Young-uns that come to this place and ask "new" questions are referred to the archives and therefore the topics they bring up aren't re-discussed. Sometime going over certain things again brings up new ideas.

2. There's a lot of very strong opinions around this place. Whenever someone brings up something new, he is either praised straight into heaven or flamed right down to hell (and then some...). Having a strong opinion is good, this makes you a stronger character. But it seems like the monitor-screens and a couple of hundred (or thousand) miles of wire that seperates us sometimes makes people forget to have some restraint in venmting their comments. I regard this as a drawback of using the keyboard as a means of communication.

I'm one of those assholes who, during parties or family reunions, likes to bring up statements to get the discussion really going, even if I do not personally support the statement I bring up. I would not even dream of doing that over here, simply because some people are not open for new ideas or even discussion! That has even driven a couple of people off the roster. Whether that can be considered a loss, I honestly can't tell you, but they're gone and won't return.

I hope you can relate to my view on the roster. I think it's a wealth of information, both to the beginning as well as to the seasoned shooter, but you'll have to get the hang of it and every now and then it seems to go to sleep for a while...

Take care,


PS. Sorry man, no flame. Hope you weren't gagging for one.... :-)

Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 11:59:36 (ZULU)

Howa HB rifles:

A while back we purchased a large number of these barrelled actions.  Here are the McMillan stocks that work well:

Tactical Style

McHale - probably best fit

A2 Sako Tang - next best fit


Sako Varmit - good field use, similar to the HTG

Hunter Class - excellent fit - not a tactical stock

We have found that these rifles do shoot and represent a good value.  Additionally the receivers are well made and come with a trigger that can be worked over to better #

Hope that helps


Tactical Stocks & Supplies

Tactical Stocks <>
EC, OH, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 15:29:31 (ZULU)

Mike Miller,

As a 'civilian' and not a 'professional' I'm limited in resources and access to information about weapon systems, tactics, equipement, and data regarding all of the above.  Many military types have shared important information over the years. The contributions from our European friends (Slugboy, Stefan, Marco, etc.) are extremely valuable for us sheltered 'civilian' Americans.  I'm interested in the technical, historical, and root cause failure-analysis of all aspects of the art.  And yes, I am a vicarious 'civilian' and not a 'professional'.  Why you want to bring that thread back is beyond comprehension.

Your response to most technical discussions is 'dial-it, dope-it, dump-it'.  Good advice, but an indicator that you really do not understand the technology.  Historical and political discussions have been deemed 'off-topic' and have restricted much discussion. Scenario analysis can generate good informative discussions, but generally terminate in the '3d-it' mode.

As far as professional discussions, let's start with you.  When was the last time you had a real engagement?  What were the conditions? Did you '3d-it' or was there another resolution?  If you want 'professoinal'  discussions, start them.  Or start another website.  Better yet, go find 'Puma' and have a few beers.

Many people who post here swing big in whatever it is they do.  Pablito (optics, physics, guns,etc.), JR (barrel-making,etc.) Bruce Robinson (mil-dot masters, automotive electronics), You (sniping, slings, etc).  There comes a point where you've reached the top of the heap, and feel there is virtually nothing new anyone can teach you.  Unless you show some humility and think a little more deeply about things.

I respect the fact that you are a 'professional', so don't get me wrong.  

Good luck.

Duman <>
Just plain disgusted, in the, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 16:36:40 (ZULU)

Duman, you obviously did not understand what I was attempting to say.  Probably my fault as sometimes we dont write in  a manner that all will understand.  I like all the non professional snipers on here.  I like all their input about shooting.   have learned from many on here.  I have said so many times.  I was just attempting to get the board back to sniper type shooting not other things. I wondered where all the pros have gone.  Seems like less qand less of them are posting here lately.  I said I did not know what caused this.  I brought up the format chaneg not to place blame (Sorry if someone took it that way)  I was just looking for an answer.

I dont know you and will not get in a pissing contest about my credentials or as you call my lack of ability.  Why you feel you must attack me only you know.  As to my dope it dial it dump it.  I think many times guys with just book knowledge get to far into the smallest possible varibles and forget what is important.  It is hitting the target.  Thats what I teach and I have had some success at it.

Please if you want to attack mefurther lets do it via email or better yet why not in person?  A few beers or just a little shooting so you can teach me to understand what I dont currently about LR Shooting.  I have learned from many before you and I hope many after you.  As Wes has said "Always the student sometimes the teacher"

Dont make this a Mike Miller against Unprofessional Shooters thing because anyone that knows me knows you are off base.  All I want is to keep both pros and recreational shooters on this site.

Now what exactly have you contributed to SC?

Mike Miller/Undude

MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 17:00:40 (ZULU)


I have been around the roster for about four years or so now, and I would call myself a regular (albeit not a regular poster, I posted as hockyref before the log in stuff). I am one of the competition types who appreciates the tactical aspects of shooting, as well as the technical stuff....

Any ways, what I have noticed over the past few years is almost a regular pissing contest every spring when the cabin fever gets to be too much. Then as the weather warms up, we all go shoot and get the hell away from these damn 'puters. As the weather gets less cooperative for us to shoot the posting picks up and we share our seasons experiences. It is cyclical.

The thing that alarms me is that the pissing matches seem to get more ~ viscious or personal ~ every year. Some folks who had things to offer that where shooting related in a fairly technical, almost "mathmatical way", have opted not to post. Add to that Stan going into hibernation for a while (hope you're doing well) - he did have a way of keeping stuff both stirred up and friendly - and yes the atmosphere HAS changed a little.

I think that a big part of the problem this year is that there was no rendezvous to meet the roster hogs, talk face to face, have a few brews, and settle disputes in a more gentlemanly fashion. Gooch's IRL is a good ideal, but the problem for many is that it is VERY difficult to travel long distances for these meets. I personally was planning on going to the rendezvous this year, and when I was starting to look for entry info I heard it was cancelled. I would love to go to Storm for classes, and someday I will. But, I only have two weeks of vacation a year with one going for Perry and the other to the family. Week long courses are nearly impossible and three day weekends are difficult. Such is life...

Maybe we need to start now to try to organize some sort of rendezvous... don't know if it will fly, and I definitely don't want to compete with Gooch. Too important to get the IRL going....

About a year and a half ago there was some talk of a postal match. I have personally had contact wiht two lurkers and we just have not been able toget together to shoot yet, but I gather that many of us have met or shot with at least one other hog, so why not try it between now and January?

Next to the knowledge, the biggest draw of this place is\was the atmosphere, maybe we all can stow the egos and get it back to where it was.

And to those who "left", I know that you're still lurking - you can't stay away it's in your blood - I am challenging you to put it all behind you and come back!

Steve <>
south west, PA, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 17:22:17 (ZULU)

Hey Wes,

What velocities are you getting out of your pet load? And with what length barrel? Also have you played with the OAL to see if you get better accuracy? I know you can't play to much because of wanting them to fit in the rifle's mag but have you stretched them at all? Just wondering because I'm about to start seriously playing with some Varget. I'm using the exact same components as you so I figured you could help me out. Thanks.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 17:33:50 (ZULU)


 If you bring reason, maturity and rational thinking to this board you'll ruin it for the rest of us. ;-)

 I miss the Rendezvous too.  We've talked about putting together an informal gathering in the Williamsport, PA area.  Are you game?


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 18:03:02 (ZULU)

Spotting Scopes,

I noticed someone looking for good quality Spotting Scopes at a budget price.

I purchased a Sibar x 20 - 50 variable a while back, it is extremly light and has superb optics, complete with red lens.

It is soviet kit and similar in style to the Leupold 12 - 40, goldrim but without the Mil-dot reticule.

The great thing is the price £62.00 (Around $100), I've been very impressed with both quality and performance. Take a look at Sovietbazar on the www., if your interested!

All the best Slugboy!

Slugboy <>
England - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 18:08:38 (ZULU)


I've posted a new article again - very much in line with the basic principles of this site.  Look in the Training section.

Thanks to Jefe for making it available

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 18:35:35 (ZULU)


Could be a possibility... details? I am a little East of PGH, but not too much. Probably depends on when. Shooting season is ending, and hunting\hockey is starting. Refereeing hockey pays for shooting in my house (I usually work over a hundred games from Oct to March, so the more I skate in the winter, the more I can afford to shoot or make purchases relating to shooting).

What you have in mind? I have a G-suit that is in the "pile of un-assembled stuff" phase. I need to make time to assemble. I am a total newbie to using those things, and pretty new to actually using mil-dots in field conditions. What I have going for me is an appreciable amount of trigger time out to 600yds, and wind reading time from HP shooting. (Did I mention my home 600 yard range does'nt use wind flags for our matches.) Also, I have grown fat and complacent in the past year and I really need to lose 20 or pounds in the next month or so! Any suggestions?

Steve <>
South West , PA, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 18:43:38 (ZULU)


 Reffing 100 hockey games will burn some calories.

 I was thinking a stalk for fun and then a mess of shooting.  The whole thing would be for fun and braggin' rights to keep the cost down.  Maybe we could make it a "Spring Thing".  I wouldn't want it to conflict with anything Gooch is setting up.  I imagine a Saturday & Sunday thing with a BBQ on Saturday night.  It will take some work to set it up but so long as everyone has a good time it would be a success.  With only 30-40 shooters the logistics would be pretty easy.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 19:03:57 (ZULU)


TRG 22/42 are militarized versions of TRG 21/41. This means that they have parkerized barrels, suppressor attachment points (threads in the end of the barrel), green stocks instead of black, better scope ring platform and some internal enhancements that increase reliability in bad conditions. They are as accurate as the "civilian" TRG 21/41s.

If you choose the calber to be 308 then TRG-22 is the right one. If you need more power like 300 Win Mag or 338 Lapua Mag then TRG-42 is the proper way. Finnish Army uses TRG-42 in 338 LM nowdays and it is according to my sources the only Sako TRG-model in use by any relevant defense force or police force. Single examples certainly will be found in strange places but only TRG-42 has been officially adopted by any army.

For pure target shooting for ranges less than 1000 meters I think you should get the TRG-22 in 308 Win as it is cheaper and lighter than TRG-42. If however you believe you will shoot out to 1200 meters or more then TRG-42 in 338 LM is the pick. I do not really seen any reason to pick the 300 Win Mag because if you really NEED power then 338 LM has more of it in the same package (weight, size) than 300 Win Mag.

About the lack of interesting discussions on the site. First of all this site is as life, sometimes it goes fast and it is interesting, sometimes it only bitches about and gets nothing done.

We definately lately have been referring everybody on all questions to duty roster archives. This probably helps some people but probably also turns some good individuals away.

Some matters have been discussed to death like which bullet to use in 308 out to 1000 yards (175 MK), which scope to use (Leupold Vari-XIII M3 LR), which rifle to buy (Stealth or 700 PSS or 700 VS). Which suuperduuper cartridge to play with (6.5-284), what powder to use (Varget), what brass to use (Lapua, Norma or Federal Gold Metal). Which custom rifle maker is the BEST (Chandler), which ones are good (Gardner, Rice and some others I do not know about).

Many things that were not the universally accepted truth two years ago are now known by most people and accepted as such. I think that we could make a 80-100 page book out of the wisdom of SCDR and sell it for many people. It would have the same knowledge of the Ultimate Sniper, Police and Military Sniper and some other books in a very concentrated format. Actually if properly edited it would be a best seller for tactical people who want to learn stuff FAST and without contradictions.

I think that sniping and especially military sniping is something that has certain basic theoretical background but when you know it, the only other thing one should do is to practice, practice and practice some more. That is what the pros do in military or police: They learn by good teachers and use what gear they have. Then they just practice until they are retired or moved to other jobs.

I believe we may have the same inherent problem that the magazine Tactical Shooter and Accurate rifle have: There is only so much you can talk about in general about sniping.

Because of this basic fact we end up talking about polygonal rifling, metal treatments, barrel cleaning tricks and weird stuff about .50 BMGs, legal issues and other stuff we just find interesting and want to share.

There is a lot of interesting material behind military and police but they can not be disclosed for opsec and liability reasons in an open forum. The truth to be told I am not too interested in autpsy reports or legal battlers concerning the use of the ultimate option so I do not think this a big problem for most people.

I believe SCDR is just having one of the slower periods of its history. Nothing is lost, especially now that we can remove all the flamers and idiots form the board if we have to.


Hexa <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 19:07:55 (ZULU)

Mike, first of all I am an owner of one of your fine slings and have on occasion asked you a question via e-mail,which you kindly answered and I am greatfull for your taking the time to do that. I think I can answer part of your question with at least my position as a "Lurker " here on the Roster. I have been reading the Roster almost daily for a year now.While I am a part time deputy I am not a sniper and I am actually very new to long rang precision shooting. At times I find myself wanting to participate in discussions on the Roster but where I know so little I have minimal knowledge to make a intelligent comment with, so I keep my mouth shut.My motto is no one will know how ignorant you are if you do not speak! So when I see something I can make a joke of, or a offhand comment on, something that does not relate to "sniping" I may chime in.It usually comes out as bad humor and for that I apologize.I can not speak for everyone but that may explain some of the "cutesy" stuff you refer to.I agree it does seem a little quiet on here lately, perhaps it is just the nice weather,I am sure everyone will spend more time on the computer when the weather turns nasty this winter.

I may have broken my own motto on this but what the hell,you cant fool everyone all the time.


drmarc <>
Hilbilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 19:15:57 (ZULU)


I have to take exception to Steves comment that referring people to that philosophy indicates a lack of understanding on Mikes part.

In fact, to me, it indicates he understands SNIPING very well.  As I say often, (and its not to put anyone down, its just to note the major difference) there is a major, major difference between being a sniper and a marksman.

As an example, many people like to discuss "milliradians" in depth since they pertain to range estimation.  I wont even allow students to discuss them because they dont need to know it and it allows ends up confusing someone.

Rather, I mention it, then tell them to forget about milliradians and to think of MIL as an abbreviation for METER IN LENGTH.  Because one mil is a meter in length at 0-1000 meters.  Its simply a unit of measurement and rather than waste time on a non issue, I would rather see them studying some of the other stuff a sniper needs to know like:


COMMO (Encrypt, Decrypt, Field Expedient Antennaes, Net Procedure etc)








and the list goes on and on.

I think that is why some pros are leaving the forum.  Not a criticism on anyone, I dont pay for this service and I appreciate all the work people like Marius put into it.

Its just that there really arent many snipers here.  When a post comes up on the other 85% of sniping issues besides marksmanship, there are virually no responders.

Again, thats not to criticize or anything.  There seems to be tremendous resentment from people who arent snipers when someone comes out and say that and its usually portrayed as an actual sniper being arrogant and trying to put someone down.  Thats not what I see.

Bottom line to me is that I have learned some from this site, have corresponded with some great folks and I have paid nothing for membership.

Jefe <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 20:02:00 (ZULU)


I just took a look at a map, looks like about 200 miles for me. I've been up that way a couple times, and figure about a four to five hour drive (State College is about three hours). Do able I think, but it will definitely make for a miserable Monday. Hit me with some email, I'm wondering if you shoot with any of the High power guys from up that way.

Steve <>
SOUTH WEST, PA, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 20:06:15 (ZULU)

Mike Miller and Snipercountry participants,

My last post was out of line and uncalled for.  

Please accept my apologies.

Duman <>
Pulling my head out, from my butt, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 20:18:29 (ZULU)

Yes, it has been quiet around here lately.  Everyone busy doing "summer" things and shooting as much as possible I'm guessing.  Mil types have a job to do, sometimes for long periods.  Now football and hunting are around the corner.  That will keep things quiet too.

I really hate to stir this pot, but hopefully it ends here.(crossing fingers).  

Why the post re: "pros versus civvies"?  This new version of "us vs them" will not fly with me at least, and really cranked my ass.

IMHO there IS no issue in that respect.  I came here as a "non pro", a Mk 1 Mod 0 hard working American(and proud) shooter and militaria enthusiast who loves to shoot and hunt, and wants to learn about being a rifleman.  I lurked for quite awhile, and try not to be cocky.  These guys have been helpful and also kicked my ass when out of line or just stoopid.  In a year I have learned how and what to fix on my Savage, my shooting basics and ability has improved, and I have learned from scratch how to reload excellent match quality ammo, thanks to the info here and to the people I have corresponded with.

The only people I see getting flamed REAL bad are the ones that post for the first time wondering, for example, if a Remmy M700 is a good choice for long range shooting, or if the Luepold is a good scope.


No one wants to waste bandwidth on a subject already hashed over big time.  But I can also tell you, an email or two to some of the Patrons will get you enough discussion to lend credence and clarity to the opinions on the site and in the archives.

BTW, I can verify Undude has NOTHING against civilan enthusiasts, in fact I have corresponded with all the Patrons and to a man they have been super knowledgable, and friendly as hell.  Even the cranky and cantankerous ones.  Thanks guys!  But they really care about the Roaster and it's content quality, that is why things get tense, and yes, somewhat overzealous at times. But hell, I say if a cranky sounding post makes you bail out, then you are a friggin baby.  Stick around and learn, or contribute.  And just because of the last blowup, don't be afraid to post, people.  OR, you could go to some other boards and learn to reliably make 600 yard head shots under field conditions....;-)

This quiet "cycle" will pass, and the boundaries will be more clearly defined as time goes on.  


Geoff M  

Geoff M <>
USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 20:26:08 (ZULU)

Jefe - it is not just the non-snipers that dislike the other issues too.  When I transfered to the PPCLI from the Artillery I had been a Foward Observer - Not once was I ever asked to help explain Fire Support (and now I have forgotten the useful parts)-

Up in the GWN we require Sniper canidate to have take the Infantry Recce course first and the prereq's to it are comms and driver wheeled.  Realistically 70% of the sniper det is fieldcraft (upwards of 90%) and 30% (or 10) shooting.

For those in green (or blue) the 'prepheral' issues can be taken on in unit trg - but for the individual civilian it is hard to get into (w/o a visit from the ATF or State Police)

Also it is hard to walk through talk through some of the issues on this board, though if we can find a practical way I would be a willing listener (and occasional blabermouth)

I picked up some HSM 50BMG with the 750AMAX - to see how it flies in the Mc .50's we got (it is a bribe - long story) anyone know where to find some mk211 Rafoss out of mil channels (private purchase)?????

Kevin (of the GWN) <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 20:30:38 (ZULU)

I hate it when my subject is posted on while I am typing it LOL.

Steve.  You da man.

Jefe.  I thoroughly enjoy your posts.  I could lurk for a year or so on the topics you have presented.  Let's see some discussion!


Also, I want to put together a meet for Roster hogs this fall once my work schedule is fixed.  Of course, we would not interfere with the ILR stuff.  I have been in contact with one lurker so far.  Who is within range of Fort McCoy, Wisconsin?

Geoff M <>
USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 20:35:05 (ZULU)


Theres an article on the training section about that I sent in a while back.

More importantly, the most valuable training tool I used for FS classes was simply a sand table with strings for grid lines and a couple radios with me on one acting as the Fire Support Officer while guys called in fire missions on the board.

Needed a guy with a pointer to show the rounds impact for the adjustment phases.  Always worked real well.

I also made the teams go through coordinating FS with the FSO before patrols (I acted it out again) and prior to departure of friendly lines when they coordinated with the Friendly Forward Unit Commander.

Do you guys have access to Ranger Handbooks?  Great tool if you can get a hold of one, though I really dont know if our techniques are consistent with yours.

Be interesting to see the differences.  I find that working with foreign militaries presents a great opportunity to learn from people with a fresh perspective.

Shot Over (shot of tequila..)

Jefe <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:02:18 (ZULU)

First Aid/... you ask for it, I'll explain it and give the you the correct perspective... let's start with what kills...

Really, there are only two things that kill the vast majority of people under the age of 50...

1 - asphyxia

2- shock (which isn't a magical term, it blood is getting where it is needed.

If you as the complete and utter novice can address these two issues, you will be doing 75% of what a medic would do...

#1 - if someone is not breathing correct, meaning too little, too slow, too fast or not at all, you need to fix it...this is ALWAYS, ABSOLUTELY, THE FIRST THING YOU CHECK AND FIX.

a) not breathing.  open the airway, clear the tongue. if that doesn't work, you might try rescue breathing...but most folks that your gonna save in the field, the first two steps will either work or nothing will

b) breathing too slow... cmon, you know what's normal... if it's too slow, you need to speed it up... best way to do this is to use an ambu bag...which every good medical kit should have (disposable ones cost $20 USD)

c) breathing to shallow...see "b" above

d) breathing too fast... this gets tricky... folks may hyperventilate, or they may have a really serious problem... the treatment for hyperventilation will kill a person with the other problem, so you need to be careful... as a general rule, folks that hyperventilate will feel tingling around their mouth...advanced hyperventilation patients will have carpal-pedal spasms which make their fingers and toes curl... these are good field indicators, but are dangerous to count on... Use common sense...if the guy has a bullet wound in his chest, it probably isn't a case of hyperventilation causing the problem... treatment for hyperventilation is simple relaxation and maybe a bit of the "bag on the face" to rebreathe some CO2...simply talking slow and relaxing the patient works 90% of the time... for a patient with thoracic trauma causing trouble breathing... we need to put that one off for another time...too much to write at the moment...

2) Shock...

Shock due to trauma usually involves blood loss as the key factor... the trick here is to stop the blood loss... unfortunately, most blood is lost from the circulatory system and spilled into a void space within the body... this makes it very hard to "stop the bleeding"... the only practical solution to this situation is surgery... so transport is a very, very critical component of "blood loss trauma survival".... logistics is key.

This is off the cuff, sort-of a knee jerk reaction to Andy's dad...

You mention a particular injury or scenario, I'll do what I can as a "professional" <grin> to answer....

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:06:52 (ZULU)

Jim, great post!

Here is a senario: While on a mission in SW north america you buddy snuggles to close to a coral snake. Medevac is at least 2 hours away and will destroy your two day covert observation of an airfield, you carry only a standard individual first aid kit. What is the action plan.

Chad's out

Chad <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:18:26 (ZULU)

If I remember correctly, coral snake saliva is pretty potent stuff...

I don't recall the mechanism of action, probably necrotic and neurotoxic...

Coral snakes are very tiny and can only bite you on fingers, toes and maybe earlobes...

for this discussion, let's eliminate the earlobe...

#1) you want to dramatically reduce the circulation to and from the finger or toe...a tight constricting band such as a rubber band will do... you want it tight enough to reduce blood flow, but not completely stop it...

#2) somehow, you want to make the finger or toe as cool as possible...find a stream?

#3) keep cardio stimulation down...don't get your pulse up

#4) hydrate, over hydrate

#5) dress the wound with clean cover and don't move it too much

now, call me crazy, but... consider the priority of your mission... if it's gonna save lives to stay on station for the two days, consider cutting the finger or part of it off...  I would do it to save a buddy..

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:31:53 (ZULU)

Do we all need another group hug?

Happy to learn from all the Rosterferians! Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:42:05 (ZULU)

Steve thank you and no problem.  Enough said.  Sorry you took me wrong.

Well atleast I got everyone talking about good subjects.LOL

Jim great posts

MikeMIller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:45:24 (ZULU)

Hexa, Jefe, Geoff M and others:

WELL SAID!!!!!!!

Semper Fi

Paul <>
Reston, VA, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:47:33 (ZULU)

Good info Jim

Coral snake juice is nurotoxic and I really had no idea how to deal with it.  Thanks a million.

Now lets deal with an insertion gone Fubar.  On a sub lock out at 80 feet your buddy holds his breath and kicks to the surface from 60 feet, when his regulator begins to freeflow. When you surface two minutes later he is still awake and has managed to inflate his BCD.  He complains of difficulty breathing and is coughing up blood.  You are still 1/4 mile from shore.  What are your priorities?  Stabilize your buddy?  Get to shore?  What after that?  How do you stabilize him?


Chad <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 21:58:04 (ZULU)

OK, I'm stuck here at work watching my computer work on the last day before a week+ vacation... so here's a bit more

sucking chest wounds...what the heck is that...

The way your lungs work....basically...take a small, un-inflated balloon...stick it in your mouth with the end sticking out... now create a vacuum, causing the balloon to slightly inflate..

That's it...

When you inhale, you are making the void inside your chest bigger than the material within it... air rushes into your mouth to equalize the pressure...simple.

Exhaling is relax your muscles and the air rushes out...

If someone takes a high speed, pointy piece of lead and brass and pokes a hole in your rib-cage...when you expand that chest cavity, air rushes in your mouth...but it also rushes into that new hole in your chest...

Unfortunately.  The hole in your chest was not designed to hold the air, and that air is not inside your lung... the same effect can be seen with the balloon in your mouth... just stick a straw in your mouth with the balloon and try to get that balloon to ain't gonna happen....

conclusion - a hole in your chest is not conducive to easy breathing, and is thus BAD for you.

Now the trick... with all that "bad" air now trapped outside your lung but inside your chest, you have a limit to the amount of space left for your lung to expand, even if the hole is plugged... we need to get that air out of there.  This is achieved by creating a one way see, during the exhalation phase of your breathing, pressures inside the chest (but outside the lung) will tend to momentarily equalize or even exceed outside pressure... so some of the bad air will come out (and go right back in), so if we put a airtight dressing on the hole in your chest..maybe something kinda clingy like plastic wrap... it will keep the bad air out... and if we leave one corner just hanging in the breeze, it will let the bad air that's already in there come out when it wants to speak...

note - this is the same concept used with that bubbling thing you may have seen on patients in the ER or SICU if you have ever been in the hospital for any reason... they put a tube in your chest cavity and apply a vacuum to it to remove any nasty air or fluid that would accumulate around the lungs....for patients with pneumothorax injuroes and also, at times, for patients with bad attitudes, I think.

terminology you might hear ...

pneumo-thorax (air trapped in chest..see above)

hemo-pneumo-thorax (air and blood trapped in chest)

tension-pneumo-thorax (air trapped in chest, pressing on the lung)

Bolt - I'm really good at HazMat medical stuff...try and stump me...mind you, it has to tie into sniper stuff somehow

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 22:14:17 (ZULU)

King snake vs. Coral snake:

Can you tell the difference between a king snake and a coral snake?  For those that haven't heard this or couldn't remember, remember this rhyme: "Red on yellow, kill a fellow; red on black, venom lack."

Stay SAFE!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 22:15:53 (ZULU)

You buddy is doing a sub lock out and he doesn't know not to hold his breath while free ascending ...yikes...

How long were you at 80 feet before the emergency ascent... are you saturated or was it a bounce, where he has a simple air embolism?

The difficulty breathing so fast suggests this will be a fatal event..most likely NOT just lung trauma. I would think your best bet would be to re-compress...either get him back down to 30-40 feet if you can manage it without drowning him or get him to a hyperbaric chamber....

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 22:20:36 (ZULU)

Kevin Mussak - I tried to reply to your email and I was being refused at server. I'll try a different account, and I alerted Ken Hunter to see if the problem is on his end.

seems that the addy posted here works, but the one you sent from doesn't.

Steve <>
South West, Pa, USA - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 22:31:13 (ZULU)

 Chad.....I think your buddy will die......

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 23:29:49 (ZULU)


Jim, a couple years back the Army changed their dressing procedure for a sucking chest wound to include the "flutter valve" as they call which you discussed.

I never knew how important that was until now.  Rest assured, that will be passed on to guys that need to know it.

Thanks for a great tip!

Jefe <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 23:41:51 (ZULU)

Medic Jim when you put the "stop the bleeding" in that explaination did you mean it as part of that little saying I learned in the Corps to remember how to treat wounded:

Start the breathing

Stop the bleeding

Protect the wound

Treat for shock

I'm a FF/EMT-B now so I don't use that anymore. Now it's the quick ABCDE for treating traumas and some meds. First aid and CPR are great things for everyone to know. If you don't you should take a class. Most places offer at least a basic CPR class. That will usually keep someone alive until we can get there.

Jim you on the job down there in NJ or is that a military medic?

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, August 23, 2001, at 23:55:44 (ZULU)

Well, reading the posts it looks like once the main individual training topics and basic equipment topics are exhausted a lot of guys on the board are at a loss as to what to do next.

I agree that the loss of the Storm Mountain get-together was a real tragedy -- no yard-stick for guys to compare notes and set goals for the next meeting (or "Rendezvous").  A real shame.

Gooch's get-together will probably be the annual event to look forward to, but like everyone else, money and vacation time may be the limiting factor.

So we have to find a large tract of land with good rifle back-stopping (maybe an established military or National Guard post) with a reasonably large area or structure to stalk an FTX.  Anybody have suggestions (I still think Storm is a nice venue, but anyone know if Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania or someplace like it is still open?).  Golf courses and country clubs usually frown on our ilk, and many hunting clubs don't want us anywhere near their haunts in the fall.

Hexa's post was darned near perfect.

Now we start delving into collective tasks, and then setting them against scenarios on how to get to work, or where is the work?  

For example, getting to work.  Land, air, or sea?  Foot, motorcycle, police car/van, quad, snowmobile, light truck, Grizzly, or APC?  Swim, boat, or wade?  Helicopter, static-line, or free-fall?  Stealthy or open?

Add your environmentals.  City or country?  Day, night, sunny, hazy, snow?  Desert?  Jungle or bush, or savannah and grassland/veldt?  How long are you going to be in position?  

Are you a local having to hand-off to the Feds?  How do you pass data?  Photos?  Video?  Sketches?  Stick men drawn with a crayon?

How do you run your post if you have only three or four guys and you have to stay concealed for three to five days (or longer) and it's freezing or 102 degrees F outside?  Water and chow?  Batteries?  Where and how do you take a dump?  Do you carry it out with you?

All things that work themselves out with quality field time together, with active bad guys looking for you.

That's why they're EXERCISES.  A lot of tasks we would do ourselves as hunters, or as individual cops who won't have to stay on site as long as a Waco siege should be planned if you have the time, or are concerned with an active enemy out to kill you.

The Ranger Handbook and ST 21-75 (Dismounted Patrolling) and some other texts (B-52 Tips of the Trade, and Tips of the Trade updated by 7th SF Group) are great unclassified texts for small unit leaders.  What you can forget, you will forget, most often if you're rushed or tired.

Cranky old man deploying tomorrow morning.

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville,, NC, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 00:14:06 (ZULU)

anyone know where to find some mk211 Rafoss out of mil channels (private purchase)?????<<<<

Really doubt you're gonna find any, mainly because I believe it's illegal, due to the RDX content of the Mk211.  I know where there used to be some cached, but I'm not telling:-)  Unless you need to defeat highly angled hard targets or complex armour arrays M8 API works just fine.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <>
IL, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 00:49:06 (ZULU)

"Medic" Jim - Damn son keep up the good words!!! As a former Army medic, street EMT and currently an Emergency Room RN I couldn't have stated any of that any better!!

Sinister Dave - I know Oklahoma isn't exactly in the center of the US but it's pretty close. We could try setting something up with BadLands Tactical Training Facility - hey its only about 40 miles from Ft. Sill and talk about SPACE - THEY GOT SPACE! Not only ranges out to 1,000 but a spearate area they use for stalks, plus a 3 story tower and all kinds of other goodies where we could play! Hey it's a thought!

Now I'm going to ask a question I asked awhile back and never got an answer to, let's try again. You've on a - oh - 3 day mission. You've reached your hide but NOT your FFP. Your FFP is determined to be another 500 yards that will require a stalk to reach, through some "relatively" open space. Some cover is seen through the area but not much concealment. Enemy is patrolling the area but - hopefully - doesn't know of your entry to the area. Now my question - what besides the obvious - weapon, water, ammo are you going to take with you??? And this is important as well - how much ammo, and this sounds silly but HOW do you keep it, meaning the ammo, QUIET!

OK guys lets play with this some and see what develops.


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 01:05:18 (ZULU)

Help on Spotting scope!

Hey guys i got my new leupold goldring spotting scope today from premier reticles and was testing it out. Everything looked good until i started viewing an eletrical tower at about 1500 yards.

It seems like there some kinda of distortion. it looks like there's a small spec of dust on the inner side of the glass on the eyepiece with i shined a flashlight on it, but i dont' know if this would make a difference.

Well looking at skeleton structure of the tower, the skeleton looks unclear in certain areas. as i move my eye sideways on the eyepiece, when focused one of the vertical arms of the tower, there seems to be some kinda deflection point, it's really wierd.

So i tested it with my kowa 611 with 25xler and same results. So is there anything wrong with my spotting scope or is this normal? thanks


Winston <>
Bay Area, CA, U.S. - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 01:37:25 (ZULU)


Once again, METT-T:  Mission, enemy (or elements, like the weather, or equipment available), time and troops available. Threat or terrain.

What is it you're there to do in the first place?  Scout and report?  Mark a target for incoming force or ordnance (like a laser-guided bomb or arty?).  Secure an HLZ or DZ?  Be the fire support element for a raid, or a security or blocking element?

Lots of bad guys (lots of ammo) or just a few bad guys (just a few sniper rounds but lots of 5.56?).

Is it ass-hot outside (Arkansas or Louisiana in August) or below freezing (need a sleeping bag, don't need a Camelback.  Gotta have a stove or not -- i.e. your partner is a skinny bastard weighing 145 pounds with no body fat, and he just wants to go on target with his BDUs, sleep-shirt, and Gore-Tex top.  Can you say "compromised"?  Hypothermia happens, sometimes quicker than a youngster might think).

Back to OKOCA.  Obstacles, key terrain, observation, cover and concealment, and avenues of approach.  Will there be dew on the ground (we've had troops busted because the casually patrolling bad guys have wondered who made these big "slug trails" in the middle of grassy areas and meadows)?

Simplest way to keep 7.62 quiet?  Federal ammo holders, wrapped in a "drive-on" rag or brown GI hanky.

Sinister Dave <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 01:42:16 (ZULU)

OK let's see - you're part of a raid team there to "secure" or "eliminate" a terrorist commander in his HQ. Primary is to provide positive ID of the target and initiate the raid with select fire. Good guys are a team of no more than 10. Enemy strength is anticipated at 25-40, small arms only. No more than 3 jeep type vehicles are expected. Typical terrain equal to Southwestern US. Hotter than hell during the day but can get to freezing at night. Scrub brush, no meadows, no agriculture. HQ is located in a very small wooded area beside a small seasonal stream - water is present this time of year. Topo maps of the area are inconclusive for approches due to age and air recon is not available.

OK what'd I forget.


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 02:27:17 (ZULU)


I hate purely academic exercises, because you have to have a detailed scenario, and your success criteria have to be spelled out.

What's the mission (you know -- 5 W's)?  Why is the target important?  Are you in hostile territory (i.e., what's reinforcement reaction time)?  No air support?  What about my crew-served weapons (can I pick?  I might want to use machineguns, LAWs <66mms to you Brits>, or a Carl Gustav with a night sight or a Thermal)?  What about his?  What risk are you willing to accept?

10 against 40?

And I'm sitting in my hide or FFP and not actually scouting the ground?

What are my escape or extract plans?  Friendly reinforcement?

Too hard.

Elements of patrolling:





And these are just off the top of my head (yup, I've forgotten lots of trivia stuff, but the stuff boxed into your head as a 19 year old Ranger isn't stuff you're likely to forget for a while).

Like one of the new SF recruiting slogans says, "Remove impossible from your vocabulary."  Miracles take just a little longer.

Sinister Dave <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 02:51:14 (ZULU)

Ken M. - I was not aware of the restriction on the Raufoss - thought the payload was option - we have a license to buy it legally (with payload)- Up here the API requires the same licenses as big boom stuff

Sinister - why can't you guys be like the rest of NATO



Kevin of the GWN <>
Canada - Eh! - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 02:52:31 (ZULU)

Kev, we do use the same 5 paragraph order, in the same order.

Our sequence is to start with receiving a warning order, then start mission analysis and troop leading procedures (what you know, the troops know).  Followed by an Op order.  Depending on the mission we'll also do briefbacks.  We also try to use the 2/5ths / 3/5ths rule (you get to use 2/5ths of available planning time, and subordinate leaders get 3/5ths of available time to task organize, rehearse, and inspect).

Standard stuff we start at private level, and re-inforce thru the ranks (corporals, squad leaders, sections leaders, platoon leaders, company commanders, battalion commanders, etc. etc.).

Detailed rehearsals are always where your money is best spent.  By that time, learning new stuff is too late.

Sinister Dave <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 03:01:56 (ZULU)


What you are seeing is from your own eyes.

As we get older, the clear liquid in the globe of the eye (called "vitrious") gets congealed in places.  This congealed stuff has a different refractive index than the fluid stuff (like having glear jello in a glass of water... both are transparent, but when you look through them, they are different).

An ophthalmologist calls these things "Floaters" because they foat around in your eyes, and often looking like wigglie worms, swimming around.

They are most visible when you look through optical instruments, like telescopes, and microscopes, and can make some parts of what you see look out of focus.

Almost everybody gets them, and they are harmless (but a pain when they're in your scope lookin' eye).

Premier Reticles "Didn't do it"!


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 03:20:43 (ZULU)

Commo check, over.

SSG Maries, ORARNG <>
OR, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 03:23:07 (ZULU)

Wow, it works.  A combination of posting problems and my computer being down has kept me away.  I'm all giddy now.

Tim, You didn't see me in Idaho because I wasn't there.  Work is a terribly unfair thing.  The LFX is still a go and I hope you are too.  The PL and myself are going up Friday on advance.  The PSG is hauling everyone else up early Saturday morning.  Should be through your area about 0330.  Could probably catch a ride either way.  Email me when your viral condition is taken care of.

Kevin Mussack,  I would be interested in your experiences at the OTI school you attended.  Our state was kind enough to send a few of us to both the basic and advanced courses that Stu offers.  Lucky enough to have had Chuck MaWhinney as co-instructor at both. Would really like to hear what your honest opinions are and how it compared to any other schools you might have attended.

Slugboy and Jefe, Job well done.

SSG Maries, ORARNG <>
OR, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 04:01:31 (ZULU)

The character of this forum has IMHO changed considerably over the last six months.  I can't put my finger on why or what, but, it seems there is a different mood afoot.. The tone is almost "club like" and seems less inviting than just a short time ago when I first started posting.

Have gleaned much info from the archives and this forum, but the interaction with many of you, on many topics, was what attracted me to this site in the first place..Could it be the focus has narrowed to the point that we've run off some of our more colorful characters and thus the site lacks the stimulating influence and broader input they provided??

Back to lurking.

outa here

Markwell <>
Pondering the difference in the Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 04:15:56 (ZULU)

MikeM: you have helped me, and been an outstanding RosterHog. Thank you.

Kevin (of the GWN) :

RE: mk211 Rafoss = find Trigger50

Jim: nice hole patching info... keep it up.

RE: First Aid, took AmRedCross class... damn near useless, the word lawsuit was mentioned multiple times, and the class was curbed considerably. Boy Scout First Aid was better. CPR was usefull. Picked up a few books (yeah, yeah, with pictures)one of the better ones was "Where There Is No Doctor". It's set up for 3rd world missionarys and such... very simple, covers lot of ground and to the point.

All RosterHogs: Thanks for what you've given me... (no, not std's.)

Bolt: man, ain't never seen you, but it must be bad if no one hugged you back yet... : )

buk < disabled vet non professional but likes to shoot holes in things

buk <>
ThankGodClintonIsntIn, Arkansas, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 05:45:46 (ZULU)


It's midnight, I can't sleep, and am cranky, so here goes:

Ken M., Raufoss is not, to the best of my knowledge, restricted. Usually, the government only restricts this stuff if it has in excess of 1/4 OZ. of explosive. Since I am not familiar with the size of the Raufoss charge I can't comment, but putting 1/4 oz in a .50 would be pushing the envelope a bit. Have a contact at Saeco Defense that can probably get the stuff, but not in onesy/twoesy quantities. By the way RDX is what powers the "air bags" in your vehicles. Tricky, huh?

Kevin, Glad to see you posting again. Missed you at our range session. Leave it to an Army guy to miss just because of a little rain...;-)

That's just a little dig at Kevin. If any of you ever get a chance to meet/shoot with him consider yourself lucky. He is one of the nicest/most professional Army types I've had the pleasure of meeting. Restores my faith a bit.

How this old Marine Major and the young SSG got hooked up is pure chance, but we are fast becoming friends. Must be getting soft in my old age...

Five Paragraph Orders...the Marines have been using S.M.E.A.C. since the fifties that I can trace.






It works and is simple(has to be...we are Marines!). Can be written or verbal. Long or short. Interestingly, Operations Orders are nothing more than a expanded five paragraph order with supporting annexes detailing needed information to support the operation.

On your "Eliminate the Enemy Commander" scenario...

If your maps aren't good seems to me you'd be better of sending in a small team, finding the location, and letting close air, or arty take it out. FAR less chance of casualties that way. MUST be getting old...not making testosterone driven decisions any more.

All for now. Grumpy old toad is going to try to get some rest.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 07:16:41 (ZULU)


Referring to Mike's comments about the contents of the Roster.  I am only reading it now, and all the follow-up, so I'll write as I read (ain't this seperate window wonderful? :-).

Take my comments for what they are, and from whom they're coming.  I'm just the computer junkie on this site, sometimes called the webmaster, that tries to keep everything running, and tries to post what is sent to me in a timely manner.  Sometimes I don't succeed - lots of especially photos with me to post for quite a while now, which I just don't get time for.  I can't shoot for shit, so, as I said, take my comments from that angle.

Yes, Mike is correct.  There is less sniper talk, and more just general shooting talk, sometimes not very high level - actually such that even I can understand it.  But who's "fault" is that?  Who are the people that post, or DON'T post, on the Roster?  Is it not you, the visitor?

Let us look at the staff.  Me... well, I've already covered that.  Scott?  Basically driven from the Roster by the constant flame wars.  That has sort of been taken care of now with the registration.  Not fully, but more containable - a lot easier now to just block somebody whom we don't want to post any more.  BTDT, unfortunately :-(

Pete?  Well, he's still around, and very active.  Sarge?  The old man tries his best as well as his time allows :-)  (DUCKING FAST!)

None of us is, or has ever been, duty slotted.  We have all seen service yes, but not as snipers.  Some of us have even been involved in some... lets just call it encounters with people of other countries and persuasions.  Does that mean we are not capable to run the site?  Maybe, maybe not.  But that doesn't matter - we ARE running the site, for better or for worse.  And we are trying our best with what we have, and what we have available.  I spend about three hours a day related to the site - mostly at night.  Sometimes on Saturdays when I could have been shooting - or attending my family.  And even that is not nearly enough - I could do with a full day every day for a long time with just that which I want to do right now.  Let alone with what I COULD do if I had the time.

So, that takes care of the staff.  That leaves you guys, our visitors.  Last time Ken counted was around 200, and I've registered a lot since.  Probably above 250 registered hogs right now.  Do they all post?  Nope.  Why not?  Ask them.

Not enough "sniper talk" on here?  (And I don't think Mike meant to sound elitist when mentioning "professional" - quite the contrary)  Why not?  Is it because the snipers are not here any more?  Is it because they've left?  Why?  Not enough talk?  Isn't that a vicious circle?  Because there's not enough talk, we don't post any more, and because we don't post, there's not enough talk.....

True, a lot has been said.  Does that mean there is nothing left to be said any more?  Does anyone really want to tell me that there's no new developments, and I don't mean technical, I mean in terms of doctrine, skills, etc., out there?  Then the "sniper culture" is in serious doodoo as it is!!

What can we do?  I see there a lot of talk going on again.  But, as always, will it shortly dwindle again?  Why?  Has it all really been said already?  If it has, does it need to be said again?  Should I maybe just DELETE the ARCHIVES, and STOP archiving, so there is no record that it has been said, thus it is OK to say it again?  And newbies can't be beaten up because they've not read the archives before posting?  I think not - I think the archives is one of the most valuable resources on the site, if not on the 'net.  I don't know of any other site that does that, but then, I don't get a lot of time to really surf around other sites.

What I know other sites do is to keep an FAQ section.  Those questions frequently asked on their forums.  Good idea - but who decides what is important enough to go in there?  Quite frankly, as I've said, I don't have the knowledge - nor the time. (Just look at the state of the HotTips)  What about the little things that are dropped in conversations?  Those little things which are, just as with normal conversations, sometimes the little golden bit of knowledge that somebody needed?  Those disappear when you only have an FAQ.

And aren't we concentrating too much on the big things, and neglecting the small?  How often have you experienced (note, not necessarily "professional") guys felt - "But everybody knows that" when a little thing is mentioned?  Do they really?  What about the new starts?  Those new to the discipline?  The future?  Do they know it?  If nobody tells them, how can they know it?

I was reading the "Basic Marksmanship Skills" in the training section the other night, and I quote from Dave Reed's article:

"I created this material for those who want to learn to shoot well, and as a gathering place for those who do shoot well."

Note:  Not the one or the other - both.

And, as peteR has mentioned, there are those that promise - and never deliver.  Maybe it is time I go through my "FollowUp" folder again.  And maybe not.  Some of those I've promised last time that, if I don't hear from them on their promises again, I won't bother them again.  Some promises, made again and again, every time with different excuses (I'm NOT commenting on validity or not, I'm merely stating FACT), have been years.  Some others don't even promise - they just deliver.  Like Slugboy recently - the first I knew was when the article just landed in my mailbox.  Others, like Jefe's which I posted last night, promised and delivered - like most that have promised.

And their contributions once again just made this site a little better, like every one we receive and post.

I think I've been rambling long enough now - think I better return to reading and doing a bit of work.


PS  Migraine still SUCKS - BIG TIME!!!

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 07:45:18 (ZULU)

seems like many of my comments were already spoken by other people.  Seems like I should have read all before posting.

In any case, that's not the reason for this post.

Jim Medic,

you're posting some good stuff here - care to write some of that up as an article?  Or a series of articles?

Here's another question, actually a scenario for you.  Busy translating an article again, and the following is an extract:

"I take a deep breath, get up in one movement, aim and pull the trigger.  With the sound of the shot it feels as if a hand grenade explodes right in front of me.  Something hits me on the thigh while the sudden burning sensation forces me to sit down quickly.  With blood streaming from my leg I realise what has happened.  "Erik, you idiot, you shot the rock right in front of you!"  Even though the image in my scope was clear, I was in such a rush that I did not get up high enough.  The bullet hit a point of the rock right in front of me.  Except for a hurting leg and a huge hole in my self-esteem I was very fortunate to get away unscathed.  Beware, accidents find the strangest places and circumstances to pop up, and even those seemingly innocent ones can kill you very easily."

He was lucky.  High up in the mountains, far away from help, only him and the professional hunter.  Had it turned out otherwise, what should the PH have done?

Example:  gut-shot himself;

 that stun on the leg was more serious;

 think up some more from that.

Glad to see we've got some REAL GOOD discussions going again.


Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 10:42:05 (ZULU)


 As "Catshooter" stated, It's probably your eyes and not the optics.  You mention it occured with different optics so there's some confirmation.

 This site has good info on Vitreous Floaters

 The thing that came to mind for me when you mentioned a problem viewing a tower was astigmatism, a tower is essentially a grid of horizontal and vertical lines and that a good test for determining astigmatism.


Medic Jim

 Your carpal-pedal hyperventilation discussion brought back memories of amusing times in the Navy.  We'd have guys come to sickbay with thier hands all 'ugly and mis-shappen' wondering what was happening and scared to death...a few minutes on a paperbag rebreather and they're good-to-go!



Kevin (Andy's dad)

 I'm still up for a get together too!  I've got a few new rifles to wear out and my ghillie has been sitting unused for over a year. (Well, that's not completely true, my cat used it once.  This marking ritual is apparently a universal cat conspiracy.)



Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 10:50:27 (ZULU)

Leupold XIII M1 LR vs. Leupold XIII M3 LR

Hi once again,

Probably the issue has been already discussed but honestly speeking download times for the DR archives are quite discouraging especially I don't know which week or month to search in. My question may sound a little trivial and forgive me for that but I'm still a rookie out here and still learn al the possible stuff. Can anybody explain me the difference beetween the two scopes? Leupold gives the two different types, the price is identical but nowhere can i find the difference. You write that the best scope is M3 but why? What makes it better over M1?

Best rgds


RoadRunner <>
Poland - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 11:38:04 (ZULU)


It's been said time and time again, and still bears repeating:

You da man, dawg!... um... I mean... Well written, well said.

Along with Scott, Pete, and many others, Hawgs included, Your dedication, determination and professionalism (no dig mike your included) are what has kept SC alive and the premier Sniper Site.

If you do a dedicated search in the "hallowed ancient electronic manuscripts" (archives), not for any particular subject, but skimming over them to get a feel for the ebb and tide, there is a seasonal flow to the information discussed.

In the fair weather the activity usually slims down due to "shooters shooting".

As we all know there are a lot of other aspects to SniperCraft than trigger pulling... cat hunting with .50s for example  ; )

To bring about lively discussion, take the already well posted subject list from Jefe and pick a topic. Use two simple formats:

If you know something spout it out.

If you don't know something, ask about it.

It does communities good to get a kick in the pants every once in a while. Good job MikeM. You are on target (not by any means for the first time)

As far as promises/contributions go: I publicly declair that I will complete a how to on "stick painting" within two weeks. There. You have until Sep 7 to flame away. What do you know? Write it up. The medical section would be GREAT. It could be a combined effort by many of the docs here. Is anyone testing out new gear? Reloading? How about Navigation? or Range finding gizzies? There are still plenty o topics left under the non-classified sun that we can help each other with.

Falling off my box.... and looking for a chair.

buk <willing to take up cat shooting, but the wife says she'd shoot me first (and dammitall she knows how)

buk <>
DangItsHotIn, Arkansas, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 12:44:42 (ZULU)


How the hell are you wildman?  Where have you been hiding yourself these days?

Jefe <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 12:46:14 (ZULU)

Mk211 Raufus...

Not restricted... but in small quanities, about $20 to $30 a round... too rich for me.  APIT is almost as good, and $1.50 a pop.


Wes (Grumpy Old Toad ;)...

RDX is not what powers car airbags... they use Sodiun Azide.

That's why the fumes from airbags are toxic... a by product of the explosion is powdered Sodiun Hydroxide, and it gets into the lungs... very Baaaad for breathing!


As to this site changing in the last 6 months... I have been talking to guys via e-mail about it for a few months.

I think it goes back to the shit storm that started by that guy "Flash", some time in January, maybe February... we lost a lotta of our more colorful old time regulars after that, and many haven't come back.

The complaints about nothing on sniping isn't true... in the past few months, there have been several postings on brand NEW sniper threads... threads that aren't "In the archives"... and the threads died in a day... the stuff comes up, but you guys let it pass.

If it passes, it's not likely to come back.

Also... the responses to anything contraversal have reached to level of "raw nasty ugly"... I posted something on MK4 bases and rings a month ago, and had three days of a shit storm that cost me a good friend... so now I don't post stuff that's likely to start a shit storm, I limit the technical stuff to e-mails with others.

We are all responsible for the level of the roster... we harvest what we sow.


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 12:53:08 (ZULU)


Not only keeping the ammo quiet but everything else too.  Duck tape (100 mile) and suspension line seem to come to mind along with tightening up everything else your carrying.

The Badlands facility might be a good central place for a match.  If guys want to come they'll find a way to make the time and get there.   I'm going to check out the Texas match in October this year for the first time.  It sounds like it will be a great time.


In your scenario does shooting the rock in front of you and wounding yourself constitute a wound by friendly fire or stupidity/oversight on your part that could get you an article 15 along with the sore leg.

LTC and all:

Great stuff on the mission planning/prep procedures, keep it up.  Us old guys don't remember too well anymore.   If I can remember Area Studies were invaluable when it came to planning a mission.  I remember a couple of missions that were compromised because a team landed on a beach and it turned out it was mating season for some rare scorpion species that had the whole beach infested.  Guys had to be medivac'd from the stings and the mission had to be scrubbed.   Thank heavens for all that good Army intel.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 13:34:56 (ZULU)


Jim Mitchell's comments are absolutely correct and perhaps much more "sniper related" than most might think.  Medic Jim points out the very things you MUST attend properly to save a life endangered by trauma.  I may not be a "Pro" sniper, but as a firefighter, I've held a lot of damaged chunks of humanity together, a couple of them other firefighters.  As simple as his comments sounded, they are exactly what all of us in high risk positions need to know.  If your partner can't keep you alive for medevac, you will die.  If you can't keep him alive, you better grow a beard, cause you won't be able to look in a mirror to shave.  Great posts Jim!

Back to lurking.


Flattop <>
State of Confusion, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 13:46:43 (ZULU)

RE: Changes in the roster atmosphere.

Been visiting the Roster for couple of years but post very rarely.  Love rifle shooting but certainly no expert.  However, I am an old fart who has delt with many types of people in many different situations before my retirement.  Seems to me that there are two main types of personalities posting on the DR with a few falling into the grey area.  One type is very enthusiastic about the art of precision bullet placement under field conditions and likes to share, help and chat with like thinking souls.  The other type is very enthusiastic about the same thing but their personalities are more confrontational when the current thread goes against their opinion or way of doing things.

I'm old enough and experienced enough in life to firmly believe in my values.  I try not to get my already high blood pressure up when somebody wants to argue over bull sh_t and I try to remember that I'm never too old to learn new tricks or realize I have been doing something wrong for 40 years.  I really believe the people that have the most to contribute to the DR are the same people that have VERY little spare time.  These same people come to the DR with good spirit and open minds.  They openly post what is only guaranteed to be their OPINION based on their experience and they are fine with that.

When one of these people take the time to visit the DR in good faith, then get their post attacked for 3 days over some peripheral item (rather than debated), why in hell SHOULD they come back.  How relaxing is that?  If they want confrontation and stress, they can show the little woman the last bill from Sinclairs or Brownells.  

If you're going to the pool to relax and then find somebody's been peeing in it, you'd be a fool to keep going back.  Some of you shouldn't be scratchin your heads trying to figure out why the DR environment has changed.

It's OK to question someones technique or methods but don't stroke out and start a Sh_t Storm over the torque setting of a scope ring screw.

Just my clouded opinion.


Tom <>
Tacoma area, WA, US - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 13:48:11 (ZULU)

Traveling to a central match???

I wouldn't go to a match that I couldn't drive to, because I don't want my stick to wind up in some baggage handler's car trunk... plus the over weight of an ALICE pak, and all the ammo, and the other "kit".

Anyone know of a "firearms" friendly airline... where your stick and kit is waiting for you when you get off the plane??


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 13:52:23 (ZULU)



I'm a long time lurker who is seldom willing to post and at the risk of exposure I would just suggest that if all the non "professionals" (those not drawing pay) stopped posting; well, there would be nobody here except a couple guys who would get tired of each other real quick. Think about it, how many people here are actualy slotted in a snipers slot? I bet I can count them on my fingers and still have enough of them available to open a ravioli can with my P-38. Ok maybe not but you get my point?

Oh and by the way, I distinctly recall the "good Jen" who surfed in here a while back got treated like a favorite, wealthy Aunt stopping by at Christmas. If I'm not mistaken her questions were "amature" and fell in the "newbie" (to sniping) catagory yet Hogs of all levels of skill and cunning about fell on themselves trying to blow sunshine up her wazooo. I'll let that statement stand alone and let you guys apply it as you see fit.

I guess the reality that few will acknowledge is that this site is really (by virtue of the complection of its population) a site where marksmen with an interest in the tactical perspective come. And to there benefit real timers in the military and LE sniping business join them and share good info and theory.

Personnally, I have actually learned bunches of stuff. I am ex-military (much to my chagrin) and am very familiar with much of what is said here, however my not having been slotted as a sniper should not disqualify my participating.

One last thing regarding the membership here. If not being slotted as a "professional" sniper means you shouldn't play here in the deep end of the pool, then why would VERY capable and intelligent, active, vital, shooters such as "Andy's Dad" be taken so seriously and actually encouraged? ANSWER: Because he is a professional by virtue of his demeanor and his approach to sniping/ tactical marksmenship.

Jefe, Gooch, Kevin Mussack, 'lito, Mike Miller, Sarge, Wes Howe, Torsten, Jim Mitchell, Marius & Ken, SlugBoy.......and the list goes on: thanks for what you have offered. Thanks for the Military, LE, European, anti-UN, pro 2nd amendment, technical ballistics curve of the earth, medical, computer and CIVILIAN, wisdoms.

Me I'm hanging around, cause yer bitchin don't scare me.

Oh! And whats your remedy for the whole jungle rot (jock itch) afliction? Jim Can ya help a brother out?

HA! Nomex firmly secured I say bring it on!!!!!!!!!!

Semper Primus!  

Mark <>
Here and there, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 13:53:36 (ZULU)

Damn.  Got off on a tangent and didn't even get my original post out.  

A friend just showed me the October issue of SWAT magazine.  It has an article on the 2001 North American Sniper Championship.  Decent article with some pictures.  The article lists a member of the winning 2-man team as Terry Cross of Louisiana.  Does anybody know if that is the same fella that posts on the DR sometimes?  

We have gotten several of the super neat Pod-Loc kits from a Mr.Cross in Louisiana and have 3 ass kicking rifles in our area from the KMW shop.  

If this is the same guy, it just goes to show you never know everything about some of the people that post here.

Thanks for your time.


Tom <>
Tacoma, WA, US - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 14:07:59 (ZULU)


I have used Northwest, Continental and Alaska Air, never had a problem with any of them when it came to carrying guns or gear.   The problem is usually with the departure airport, especially on the east coast where they have an anti-everything attitude.  But if your not hiding anything or breaking the law there's no issue.  They do however have restrictions on size, shape, weight and number of bags and there are FAA procedures for bringing firearms on a plane. If you don't watch how you pack your bags then you could get some hefty over charges, I learned that lesson when I was carrying 400 lbs of Elk meat back from a hunting trip in CO.  The best solution if possible is to ship non-essential gear and ammo via UPS to a friend who is driving to the match and then only carry limited gear with you.  Pelican cases and their content would probably survive a plane crash let alone the baggage handlers.   And just because they say you have to check guns seperatly doesn't mean you can't stuff everything possible into the case with them.  EXCEPT AMMO !!!

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 14:34:46 (ZULU)

Thanks for the Mk211 ideas -

Wes when I get back home and am on email I will get in touch

and while reading my email remote

guess who pops up again?


TEL : +22505694994



My name is Mr. Edmond Kokar, a citizen of SierraLeone.

I got your contact from the Chamber of Commerce here

during my search for an international business

relationship. I am residing in Abidjan the capital

city of Cote d’Ivoire.I worked with the

Sierra-Leonean Diamond co-operation as one of the

directors. I was  in charge for the sales of diamond

and exported ones.

During the renewed political crisis

of which the United Nations apprehended the rebels

leader known as Foday Sankoh who has been causing

causing problems in my country. It was then that I

moved the total sum of US $12,000,000.00 (Twelve

Million United States Dollars) belonging to the

government of Sierra Leone, in fact I didn’t give  the

account to the government because of the crisis. Now

that every thing has come down. I personally want to

transfer  the money out of Africa to overseas  where I

can invest this money properly and bring  up


Right now I have already discharged my assignment as a

civil servant in the government seat. This money has

no trace at all, that’s the reason why I waited for a

very long time for things to calm down, before I could

transfer the money out for onward use.

However, I deposited the money into a bank here called

(BICICI BANK) with the document covering the

lodgement. But I didn’t use my name to avoid trace. I

have equally filled the whole that might bring

scandal, so the business is 100% risk free.

I have promise  to gratify you with 10% of  the total

sum for your kind assistance, if you can avail me an

account facility where I can transfer the money into.

After much we can know each other sign some necessary

document like agreement for both mutual understanding

that of finally the money gets to your account that

you can not sit on my money, or even claim more

percentage  than what agreed on. This agreement must

be done by you with your letter headed paper signed by

you and must be notarised by your legal attaché.

Once I am convinced with this lay down agreement, I

will now instruct the bank to transfer the money to

your account. In addition a letter of an invitation is

highly needed because I will fly to meet with

youassoon the transfer is done


If you accept this proposal you are advised to send to

me your banking details for the transfer. Please I beg

that the information passed through must be treated

with absolute confidentiality considering how I got

the money to avoid trace or problem. Upon receipt  of

the message if you are not interested please kindly

destroy. And keep to yourself do not let someone else

see or you telling another person about it for my


In Africa here we surfer a lot so this is a

great opportunity for me. Thanks million time if you

act as instructed. Your urgent respond is highly

needed, or you can call me on this n° + 22205694994

For more discussions  or email me on this

My regards


Thanks but no thanks

Kevin of the GWN <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 14:41:35 (ZULU)


The problem I have with the major airlines, is you can't be sure of even getting out of the airport to make the match.  I one had a client in Colorado Springs (aka God's country)... and had to fly out four times a year, and getting there was half the job, the actual work was easy in comparison... I missed half of the starting meetings, and those were the days when air service was "good".

I would want to fly out of a small company that gave a damn if you were happy with the service... the big ones don't!


Kevin (OTGWN)...

I got SEVEN of those e-mails from that idiot... sent him some very nasty (vulger) e-mails back.

I guess the rosterfairians are considered to be rich, by his standards.


CatShooter <>
Cat... always in season, in the, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 14:56:31 (ZULU)

I don't know if anyone is interested but there is a Rem. PSS. 300 Win

for auction on Gunbroker with no bids and starting at $700. It includes a mounted Loopie 6.5X20X40 scope with caps and a Pelican case and looks like it has a sling with it as well. He states it is all in near new condition. Auction #1872407.Auction ends 8-27-01.

Everyone have a great weekend.


drmarc <>
Hilbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 15:39:22 (ZULU)

Gotta hate slamfires.....

Anyway just got back from Camp Perry and what a rush. The weather wasx god awful, but from long time shooters they thought it was pleasent. It was my first time and I can only tell you that it can be a humbling expierience. One day your shooting next to G. David Tubb himself and the next day your getting waxed by a teenager(gotta envy young eyes).

At least that's how it went for service/match rifle. Long range is where us experienced(old) shooters come in. NOthing better than laying on your belly and knocking them down at a 1000yds. It seems more practical than all that scurrying about with the service rifle.

One more note if you have never shot the Garand Match it's a hoot. Some guys show up in full battle gear and it is quite entertaining and enjoyable as well. Very low stress in comparison to other matches and anyone shooting over 259 of 300 gets a bonze medal. All shot with as issued rifles at 200yds try it and it will make your trip.

Mike M. sorry to hear your down about the site, but everyone has to start somewhere. I've talked to you in person and you seem like a guy who would welcome newbies. Maybe we just need to point some of the new guys to a good school(for safety sake if nothing else). There was alot of interest in your sling to so look forward to some mail.

Lito' I know I've been dragging my stern about with the cannon fodder we talked about, but it's a comming.

Chief out

Dwight C. <>
USN , CA, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 15:58:54 (ZULU)

Roadrunner: Forgot to write yesterday, Sako does NOT give ANY accuracy guarantee per se. So they do not claim that you are guaranteed to get 1/2 MOA accuracy with any ammo in a TRG.

Sako will stay behind their products so if you can not get 1 MOA or better with match ammo from a TRG there is something wrong and Sako will fix it. If you complain later to Sako that you can not shoot constantly 1/2 MOA groups they will basically tell you to learn first to shoot.

Guarantees for certain level of accuracy are almost never given out by any mass manufacturer because there are too many variables. Weatherby guarantees  1 MOA or better if you use THEIR ammo. Not if you use Federal or Lapua or Norma ammo. (Norma loads their ammo but still you need to use Weatherby ammo).

Custom gunsmiths who can test shoot every rifle they produce and charge 2-8 times than a factory rifle can and SHOULD guarantee their expensive work.

Rest assured Sako TRG is better than 1 MOA rifle and with good handloads you will get 1/2 MOA groups from time to time, maybe even constantly. Sako will not guarantee it however.


Somebody made a list of possible topics. Because I operate in different environment (non-Nato etc.) some of the subjects are foreign to me.

Commo, we use same gear but different procedures, probably in all countries, lets start from different languages :-)

Fire Support, in Finland snipers can not call fire support, some snipers do learn how to do it but officially we do not have that option, neither can we order air support. We just observe or shoot and that's it.

Tactics, many times people have said that because of OPSEC they can not tell us mortals anything. I have not heard much about this outside the Field Manuals.

Order of Battle: It is different for every army there is.

Usefull topics:

First aid, definately good to know for everbody

Land Navigation, good to know allthough it seems that different countries use different amounts of milliradians for 360 degrees, still basics are the same

Info gathering: I think this is pretty basic and is learned best by training but of course there are tricks to be learned

Patrolling: There a lot of tricks to be learned on this one.

So yes, we do have stuff to discuss, we still need to discuss it. Because most people on this site are shooters first and sniper buffs second we tend to talk about ammo, scopes, rifles, relaoding etc. I do not think there is nothing wrong with that. Military and Police snipers can not really join the reloading discussions if they are stuck with issue ammo as they usually are. Still they can learn also more from people that load their own ammo.


hexades1 <?Subject=">>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 16:07:54 (ZULU)


One thing all of us NATO types can use is the model of the former Soviet Union.

While it obviously no longer exists, the structure, equipment and tactics used by the Warsaw Pact countries is still very much alive in many places.

This sounds like a good choice for an article...hmmm..

Jefe <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 16:14:44 (ZULU)



Outstanding point about the Area Studies.  I think thats particullarly true for us Americans since we are pretty much geographically isolated from the rest of the world and as such we tend to be less aware of many of hte political, social, economic and other issues which become crucial on a deployment.


A format to be used when assigned a mission and you dont know what to do next.  Just follow the format:

(Sniper Specific Note:  This gets modified with a two man team)

Receive the Mission:   5 Ws at a minimum

                      Usually a FRAGO/OPORD where you break it down

                      to your unit level

Issue a Warning Order: Used to be a different format, but now they

                      used the 5 para OPORD format.

                      The warning order is simply to alert troops to

                      the mission so they can begin logistical preps

                      (pack, draw ammo, special equipment, aid and

                      litter gear, demo prep, commo, andtables, some

                      of the OPORD paragraphs are usually delegated

                      especially command and signal (RTOs) Service &

                      Support (Plt SGT) etc.

                      When this is complete, use the extra time by

                      practicing battle drills, SOPs and special team


Gotta Run guys, more later.

Jefe <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 17:00:55 (ZULU)

On the Leupold Spotting scope:

Thanks for the comment guys. It wasn't the floaters. I went out side to do some viewing this morning and had no problems. So i guess the problem was looking through double pane glass which isn't completely clean!

I was wondering if small dust etc on the lens would effect the viewing through a spotting scope? thanks


Winston <>
Bay Area, CA, U.S. - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 17:22:41 (ZULU)

Looking for some help!!.  I need a picture of the current Mil issue Lensatic Compass that has tritium inserts on the face etc.  Also a contract number would help.  Your help is greatly appreciated.

Jim Abbott <>
Flower Mound , Texas, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 17:51:45 (ZULU)


Marius <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 17:51:48 (ZULU)

Ref: Op-Orders

I'm getting misty eyed with all this talk about Fragos & Op-Orders & Rehearsals & stuff......takes me back to the Ft.Benning School for Boys.  I'll have to dig out my ratty old Ranger Handbook and bone-up.

Last week at the sniper school we did an exercise where we responded to a call-out and deployed to a simulated hostage situation.

With seven two man teams all decked out in their finest burlap the cop in charge started out with, "Ok, who wants to cover the back?" and then went on from there.  My stomach turned.  How I wanted to hear,"Ok men take a knee.  The situation is...." No bare patch of dirt with a hasty terrain model.  None of the good ol' meat and potatoes troop leading stuff.  We got deployed ok and completed the exercise but it could have been done so much better.  An Op-Ord. doesn't have to be long or complex.  It is just needed!!  At least address each paragraph so you don't miss anything.

And did I mention the value of tactical SOPs?????

I love this S#@t.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 18:42:47 (ZULU)

Posted another article (Articles section).

Thanks JR - please check your email and get back to me.

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 19:09:12 (ZULU)


brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 19:22:38 (ZULU)

Oops, meant test but I guess teat will work.

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 19:23:43 (ZULU)

Marius, everything seems fine now.  Don't know what we did but it worked.  

Thanks, Brian

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 19:27:24 (ZULU)

Kevin, what memoris that brings back.  My first SWAT Commander was an ex SF guy from Nam era.  He did not have any of the hitec gear and always seemed to be somewhere else but man when P..P hi the fan he took a knee looking for some dirt to draw in and came up with an Ops Order right there.  It always was a good plan and I learned to look for dirt whenever we were going to brief.

Next Commnader was a smart looking book smart guy who had twenty pages of well written orders that made me wish the old guy was back.

Roadrunner asking about the Sako TRG41 it is very accurate with 250 (1/2 moa) grain bullets but the 1x12 twist will shoot football shaped holes with the 300 grainers.  You would have to rebarell it to a 1x10twist for the 300 grainers to get it shooting them.  Its fine as it is with factory ammo except Black Hills now loads some very good 300 grain stuff.


MikeMiller <>
Calif, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 20:30:32 (ZULU)


I was going to purchase a rifle but after begging the wife the answer was still NO (head down; bottom lip WAY out)!!

So, I thought I would pass along the info.

Remington 40x repeater with a wooden rangemaster stock, series B.  It has a brand new Shilen #7 chrome-moly barrel with zero rounds through

it.  Has been refinished in matte blue.  Price is $845 shipped.  The guys name is Jim Meyer and his e-mail address is

He is in South Dakota.  May it find a good home with someone who either has or does not need permission.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
VA, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 20:41:47 (ZULU)

Hey guys (ladies ?), I have been reading the roster lately but have been unable to post on same.  Computer stuff.  Wasn't cause I didn't want or try to.  Guys, from a newbie's perspective, I'd like to try and explain some things without giving some of you guys a heart attack.  Here goes: The first time I got on this thing, I had just signed off of Snipersonline which is God save my accursed soul - LE/Military only.  I had a little time to spare and thought I would sign on here, surf the site and maybe learn a thing or two.  I knew no one.  Being that I had just signed off of the other site and the name of this one is similiar, I thought the content would be similiar.  They are not.  Similiar in some ways but really a different type of site.  Not bad, not "unworthy", just different.  Every person on the other site is a Sniper "for a living".  If one get's hurt, retires, reassigned or put off their Team for any reason, they ask to be taken off the list and they no longer post there.  That is just the way it is.  It is accepted practice and happens often with very little fanfare and only professional goodbyes.  I guess I pissed a bunch of people off when I added to my name the acronyms of all the training /professional organizations I take an extremely active part in.  I had no previous idea the professional backgrounds of the shooters here.  I was NOT trying to be a cocky smart ass ( which I am ) and impress everybody with my credentials.  What I did seek to do was earn my spot on this TEAM by trying to suggest that I had earned and was worthy of the title Sniper and not some rambo type.  I guess my opinion of who IS and who is NOT a Sniper is very close minded.  I will not apologize for that.  Many are friends from all over the world and CONUS.  I like to swim, shoot, rappel, and cast out of helicopters and boats.  But that don't mean I can just adopt the title Force Recon Marine or Navy SEAL because I am neither. I have learned much from DR already and will continue to do so if you guys will allow me the courtesy of sticking around.  I have spoken with many of you individually via e-mail. Great bunch of guys.  Thanks for the responses.  I got blasted the first few times I posted.  No big deal.  Been blasted before.  Will probably get blasted again.  Mike where the hell is my sling ?        


Brian K. Sain

Port Arthur (Texas) Police  

brian k. sain <>
- Friday, August 24, 2001, at 20:44:33 (ZULU)

 Guess they're still using the DR "list".....Just got two e-mails from "Royal Crown of Africa"....invited him to joint-venture with me here in North Mississippi..."You provide the Arrah-Ceees an I'll supply the moonpies".....we'll make a killin' at my stand down here in the Delta....By the way....nice to see you back B.S.

Mark Smith <>
LC, MS, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 21:27:26 (ZULU)

Jim Abbot,

The link below is where I got my GI tritium compass (picture included)

Michael Sheehan <>
SJ, CA, - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 21:42:10 (ZULU)

Well, got the course going and I'm still alive!!!!!  Some emails sent to me got dumped during a vicious cycle of delete it all one night, now a few beers were involved as well but if I missed answering you please send again and my apologies.

DAAAAAMMMMMMM Mike, you really got s**t started!  I miss this place for a bit due to being old and lazy and look at what I come to!  Love the way you stir it up at times for the fresh to rise to the top!

Mission Planning - This can get crazy.  Our FTX is very similar to one example stated on this DR, I'll let you guys guess as to which one.

FIRST is CARVER analysis of the target, mission, and area.

C - Criticality of the target, will it make a difference or is it a way to get someone killed for the hell of it.

A - Accessibility - Can you get to it, is it out of range form your nearest PPF OR do you have to get too close  (too small of a target or too much veg in the area).  You must be able to get away after the shot, can you?

R -Recupability - Will the target be down for time required?  As an example you wish to take out a radar system for 6 hours but your rifle will only take it out for 4 hours.  What must be done to take it out for the 6 hours.

V - Is the target vulnerable to your weapon system, 308 against a tank will not work as scratched paint is not going to count.  The 308 may not take out the radar van but the 338 will for 4 but the 50 will for 8 hours.

E - Effect on overall mission versus effect on Population.  If you shooting the General means killing the little old lady with the baby in your arms then you must compute the effect on the population and the advent of an insurgency due to your shot.

R - Recognizability - The target must be able to be recognized from you FFP as your target.  This would be based on size, camo, and similar appearing non-targets.  Think about the Son Tay raid guys.

METT-TP - Dave good run on that one but you left out P for populace.  Again they will have to figure into the equation.  Also I think it should be MEETT-TP as many time the enemy is thought about but the equipment and available resources is lost in the initial planning schedule.

OCOKA is another important process that is lost on many planners.  Observation and fields of fire are thought about in a superficial way but avenues of approach are lost and snipers wind up putting their FFP too close to them. They also forget to place obstacles between them and the target whenever possible.  Cover and concealment are not a problem but Key terrain is always left out of the equation and it will bit the sniper right in the a**!

Once this has been looked at then you have to look at the consideration cycle.  You have your support you are giving the unit (mission) - this starts the planning that starts coordination, that modifies planning, this establishes control measures, that causes the sniper to request support received from the unit.  Or it is a cycle of support (given) - planning - coordination - control of the sniper team - support (received).

Once this has been established then the OPORD begins.  This is the Situation Mission, etc stuff.  But that little situation thing gets lost in the mix and again it will bite you.

Look at the Light data.  Can you make the shot, will NVDs work when you need them or would the day scope work better.  Will the full moon make you stick out?  Is the angle of the sunrise going to obscure your target or make you stand out?

Weather - Visibility precedence for that area for that time of year will you make the shot from 600 or will you have to get to 350 to make the shot at that time.  What is the wind doing and is there a wind tunnel effect in your area?

Terrain - What is the ground made of and can you even dig?

Flora - Black Palm, English Nettle, Poison ivy, oak, sumac, to name a few.

Fauna - Lions and tigers and bears oh my, but also the little, scorpions, centipedes, spiders, rapid raccoons and fox in the area, again to name a few.

Yes planning can be so much fun when you are going deep and staying long.  :-)

Hope that I did not burn up too much band width there but thought I would give a yell on this one and add my two cents.

Hold Hard guys and play nice!  I only get by once in a while and will try to get by more often.  I'm just old and lazy!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USofA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 21:55:07 (ZULU)

I'm finnishing a rifle based on a 1903 A3 action with a Mann accuracy barrel (.308) from DCM. Trigger is a Timney. Scope is a Leupold M3 LR w/ ill mildot reticle. Badger rings. Pillar bedded.

However I have not been able to locate a suitable base. There are plenty of two piece ones out there, but I want a (quality) tapered one piece. Many people have sugested the b-square mount. No good. There are about 10 different screws that could come loose and the mount has to be completly removed to remove the bolt. Serious hassle.

At this point cost isn't really my concern. I want to see how this sucker shoots, soon. Any info on the Mann barrel is welcome as well.

Thanks, this is a great site! I've been reading for months, lots to learn.


Dave <>
WY, usa - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 22:27:09 (ZULU)

Newbie with a couple questions here.  Anyone have any information on the proper ring placement on the scope?  Wondering if rings are better placed near the objective bell, near the W&E adjustments, or centered between the two???  Same questions for the rear ring.  Or does it matter as long as you have proper eye relief with your stock weld?  I have never had any adverse problems with the scopes I have previously mounted but still wondering if there is a better positioning.  I will be using either mark 4 rings lapped or the Badgers which I understand are superb.  Need the job done RIGHT!

Also, does anyone have any info on using the new .300WSM as a tactical/sniper rifle?  From what I understand, it outperforms the .300 Win Mag but with a short action.  Sounds like a winner to me.  What are the general thoughts for using this cartridge for this purpose other than it is not a military cartridge?  Email me if you don't mind.


Nick Gebhardt <>
Memphis, TN, US - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 22:33:46 (ZULU)

The smeac format is used in oz to and as I could understand it and use it, its pretty well idiot proof.These thing have to become almost instinct cause when its for real there is sometimes some nerves involved and mr murphy comes sniffin around .Someone mentioned situation.mission ,execution-general outline,sevice and support,lol, not that I noticed.We use s,m,e,a:ats&dets,attatchments-detatchments,

c:command & sigs.Another thing wich must be born in mind I think is the legallity of a it lawyer proof?

Take a knee,observe my mud map,damn that had me worried first time I heard it.

Great posts guys now we're larnin somthin.The sop is normally to engage in exessive pt when theres not much to do or talk about,Thank God that shit is in the past.



Gavan Willis <>
this months dr, will be a keeper, in occupied oz - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 23:07:46 (ZULU)

Rostershooters:  I was paging through the latest issue of "Gun List" and ran across an ad for the "new" Remington 40XB tactical rifle.  It's chambered in .308, comes with a 27.25" barrel, but the twist is 1 in 14.  Can anyone tell me why Remington would do the 1/14 instead of 1/12 or 1/10?

Jerry <>
Halstad, MN, USA - Friday, August 24, 2001, at 23:24:57 (ZULU)